M.Hortensia Quiritibus spd;
today celebrates the die natalis, the founding of the temple of the
goddess the Public Fortune of the Roman People. She is the protector
of the Roman people.
Fortuna is an ancient Italic goddess of abundance and preserver of
cities and not the capricious diety of the Greeks. Do see the NRwiki
article I have written in her honour:

http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Fortuna
There are numerous temples in Rome to great goddess Fortuna;
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Aedes_Fortunae_Huiusce_Diei this has
some wonderful pictures.
And here:
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Aedes_Fortunae_Populi_Romani_Quiritium_Pri
magenia_%28Nova_Roma%29
or try this link:
http://tinyurl.com/29trs3

is my online temple dedeicated to dea Fortuna. Please visit and
leave a prayer or carmen for this great goddess.
and if you would like to read more on her cultus here is an
excellent study:
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Reading_list_for_the_cultus_deorum
As you can see, there is also links for a rite for Fortuna which
I will be writing.

All this research and work is now available in the Nova Roma Wiki
for all cultores and cives. You too can write an article, and create
an online temple to honour the dii et deae. I encourage all Nova
Romans to contribute to this Wiki. It isn't hard and there are many
easy templates.

So this is my offering : May Fortuna favor our Res Publica!

Marca Hortensia Maior
civis et cultrix Novae Romae

Agricola Ciceroni sal.

What he said sounds about right to me. About the 1% thing, look into
the circumstances surrounding the times and consulship of your
namesake. Cataline et al. were coming from outside the 1%.

optime vale!

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "mrgrumpkin" <mrgrumpkin@...> wrote:
>
> I was listening to a Roman Historian give an online lecture recently
> (his name was Jonathan Stamp) and I heard him say some pretty radical
> things. Now I'm not in any questioning his intelligence, I know that
> he has been studying Roman history, especially the collapse of the
> Republic much more than I have. regardless, I just wanted to bring up
> some points and just get everybody's opinion on them.
>
> First thing--He said that "we know a real estate agents bill of a
> house that was sold in one end of the Forumn, and it was sold for
> about 15 million sestertii." That seems like quite a lot, however I
> am no expert on Roman real estate practices. He then goes on to say
> that out of Rome's population "the people that had the power, very
> small number of people, tiny percentage MAYBE ONE PERCENT." One
> percent seems miniscule, I always thought that Rome was slightly more
> of an equal opportunity city, so long as you were at least a freeborn
> pleb, but is that true? Only 1 percent of the people actually held
> the power? Then again, I guess that when you add our modern day
> senate/parliament and then our respective mega wealthy people all of
> them put together would probably only make up 1% of the total
> population.
>
> He then says that nearly all of the people in Rome are "tagging
> along, and they're on the make, and they're hustling, and they're
> trying to make a buck... and nearly every single one of [the Roman
> people] are on the bread line." That seemed odd to me, I know that
> Rome did indeed have its slums, but I thought that it also had plenty
> of prosperous people living behind the Servian Wall, all of whom were
> perfectly capable of relying on themselves and not the state.
>
>
> Now the following are Stamp's remarks on religion-- "religion is
> every where in Rome, it's absolutely everywhere, its part of
> everything you do from the moment you get up in the morning to the
> moment you go bed a night. But religion has nothing to do with
> morality... it has nothing to do with right or wrong. Religion is
> there to protect the state, its there to keep Rome running. And the
> reason you have so much religious ritual is 'cause you to do it just
> right. If you, I mean there are--there's lots of examples of this--
> as a priest the only thing you had to do was you had to do the ritual
> in the perfect order every single time, the same every time, if you
> screwed it up somewhere in the middle, you had to start again. It's
> all to do with oiling the wheels of state, and in fact, priests were
> more like politicians-- they didn't have some divine vocational
> calling, so [there was] lots of religion, but religion was [more of
> a] political activity... you learnt morals in the family, family
> life..."
>
> Just curious about the validity of some of the points, he was
> speaking in kind of a rush, and it seemed like he was having a
> microphone poked in his face so he might have been a bit flustered at
> the time. As is, I figured that this would be the place to go.
> Can't wait to hear back!
>
> Valete,
>
> Cicero
>

Agricola Omnibus sal.

I said it before, I'll say it again now. Last year was a good year. We
got a lot done and things were running better than ever in a lot of
ways? Did we have bumps? Yes? Do we need to improve? Yes. Is it a time
of gloomy disaster? For the vast majority of us, no.

I thank the Consuls this year for their leadership thus far and I
support their efforts to move us forward.

optime valete!


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Vitellius Triarius"
<lucius_vitellius_triarius@...> wrote:

>
> Salvete,
>
> It seems to me that there should be some changes in the way this
> organization works, since we just continue to experience decreases in
> membership and have over a prolonged period of time.

[SNIP]

Salvete,

I have read only couple of messages in this discussion that has been
going on for some time, so please excuse me if I say something that
has been already said. In fact I know this has been said earlier,
since I have written about this some months ago here and several
times in other places, but I risk of repeating myself, since I think
this ought to be said again.

I think NR should try to exist without main mailing list, at least
for some months as experiment. The reason why think this, is that
over the years I have noticed that main mailing list seems to be
almost sole common factor in most of the negative events in NR.
Partly I think this is because there seems to be too much variation
in people's expectation about nature of this mailing list:
-some see this as mailing list for light chatting
-some think it should be a place of serious discussion
-some say it's our Forum
-some say it's just a mailing list
-some see it mainly as place for NR politics
-some would like to see no politics here at all
-some see it of periferial meaning for NR
-some think this is the NR
-etc.

Of course it is natural that people have different ideas, but I think
that in the case of this main mailing list the expectations are more
varied than it is healthy. For example there was a message here some
time ago protesting against paying taxes for Yahoo mailing list
membership, and I'm sure there has been at least one message in the
past few weeks in which this mailing list is referred as "our Forum".
Or for example I would like to see this list as a place for serious
and slow paced scholary discussion, and as a informing list about
elections etc. important things, and even while I'm Senator and
magistrate I don't read nearly all messages here, even while some
people think that if an issue is posted here, then every magistrate
and Senator should know about it.

Partly it is also because people have different expectations and
ideas about NR in general, each of us probably see this mailing list
also in light of what we think NR is.

One view to the matter is also the net-social function of this
mailing list. What I mean by this is that when NR opened it's mailing
list and during the first years of it's existence, the mailing lists
were part of online culture in different way than in nowadays. We
must not ignore the changes in the net-culture in general and we
cannot swim against the tide. We can and must try to create our own
net-culture, but it has to face some realities too. For example
nowadays there are literally endless amount of mailing lists and
discussion groups, it's nothing special anymore. Our group, i.e. the
main list, cannot anymore attract just about anyone interested in
Roman things because there's so much competition. We should pay
attention to what kind of people this YahooGroup attracts, and draw
conclusions about that.

Also nowadays a much higher grade of spesification from net-service
is expected than it was about 10 years ago, Western culture has
tendency of fragmentation and spesification, as can be also seen in
the changes in net-culture: for example see the popularity of wikipedia.

Based on all these points I'd like to see NR without main mailing
list. Instead of it:
-automatic inclusion of all citizens into InfoNR -list, be it hosted
by Yahoo or by our own server, with moderation and posting of
official announcements only
-message boards for spesific areas like sodalitates embedded into NR
wiki site pages
-rebuilding of NR YahooGroups to correspond different social groups
based in ancient Roman concepts (e.g. cult-groups, professional
guilds etc.)
-keeping of some NR YahooGroups like newroman group, which really
function and serve the needs of people
-real advertising of NR to overcome main list marketing capacity loss

In this way we would have more Roman social organisation as well as
more efficient and modern one.

At least it might do good just to divide aspects of this mailing list
to several others. For example to make it forbidden to post official
announcements here in favour of NRAnnounce -list, or any other kind
of separation into different lists to clarify the role this list has.

Valete,

On 27.5.2007, at 8:07, Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> 5.6. Re: Taxes, postal mail, who does what, and our organization
> Posted by: "L. Vitellius Triarius"
> lucius_vitellius_triarius@... lucius_vitellius_triarius
> Date: Sat May 26, 2007 9:31 am ((PDT))
>
> Salvete,
>
> It seems to me that there should be some changes in the way this
> organization works, since we just continue to experience decreases in
> membership and have over a prolonged period of time. Unfortunately, no
> one, for the most part, in this group can take any constructive
> criticism, nor are they willing to accept any new ideas for
> discussion. If anyone makes a statement about ANYTHING, someone has to
> make a sophomoric comment and everyone jumps on the band wagon.
>
> So, I retract any suggestions that I have made thus far concerning any
> improvements, since evidently, there are no needed changes.
>
> As far as my wife's application. No need to pursue that either.
> Evidently, I am but a mere liar, whose words are not worth much. I
> thank you for the opportunity to have posted over the last couple of
> years, but my interests in Nova Roma have changed now. I stopped
> posting to this list for over a year because no one but a select hand
> full of you apparently want anyone to post anything other than
> yourselves, in which you use this list as an electronic rostra to
> insult and degrade others. So, have at it. I will no longer be posting
> to this list.
>
> You should rename the list Forum Iuventus.
>
> Vale,
> Triarius

C. Curius Saturninus

Senator - Aedilis Plebis - Propraetor Provinciae Thules
Rector Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova

e-mail: c.curius@...
www.academiathules.org

Apr. 4, 2007 Payment To Nova Roma Completed Details -$15.00 USD
$0.00 USD -$15.00 USD

OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodie est ante diem VI Kalendas Iunius; haec dies fastus est.

"The coming dawn will hide Bootes from your sight,
And next day the constellation of Hyas will be seen." - Ovid, Fasti V

"When darkening twilight ushers in the night, the whole flock of
Hyades is revealed. Taurus' face gleams with seven rays of fire, which
Greek sailors call Hyades from their rain-word. To some they were the
nurses of Bacchus, to others granddaughters of Tethys and old Oceanus.
Atlas did not shoulder the load of Olympus yet, when lovely,
eye-catching Hyas was born. Oceanus' daughter, Aethra, bore him and
the Nymphae in timely births, but Hyas was born first. While his beard
was fresh, stags trembled in terror before him, and the hare was
welcome prey. But when years matured his manhood, he breavely closed
with the shaggy lioness and the boar. He sought the lair and brood of
the whelped lioness and was bloody prey to the Libyan beast. His
mother sobbed for Hyas, his sad sisters sobbed and Atlas, whose neck
would haul the world. The sisters surpassed both parents in pious love
and won heaven. Their name is from Hyas." - Ovid, Fasti V

"Hermippus, who wrote about the stars, says that Ceres lay with
Iasion, son of Thuscus. Many agree with Homer that for his he was
struck with a thunderbolt. From them, as Petellides, Cretan writer of
histories, shows, two sons were born, Philomelus and Plutus, who were
never on good terms, for Plutus, who was richer, gave nothing of his
wealth to his brother. Philomelus, however, compelled by necessity,
bought two oxen with what he had, and became the inventor of the
wagon. So, by plowing and cultivating the fields, he supported
himself. His mother, admiring his invention, represented him plowing
among the stars, and called him Bootes. From him they say Parias was
born who called the people Parians and the town Parion from his own
name." - Hyginus, Astronomica 2.4

"But Zeus made them [the sisters of Hyas] into the stars which are
called Hyades." - Hesiod, Astronomy Fragment 2 (from Scholiast on
Aratus 254)

"Atlas by Pleione or an Oceanid had twelve daughters, and a son, Hyas.
The son was killed by a wild boar or a lion, and the sisters, grieving
for him, died of this grief. The five of them first put among the
stars have their place between the horns of the bull - Phaesyla,
Ambrosia, Coronis, Eudora, Polyxo - and are called, from their
brother's name, Hyades." - Hyginus, Fabulae 192

"The Pleiades were so named, according to Musaeaus, because fifteen
daughters were born to Atlas and Aethra, daughter of Oceanus. Five of
them are called Hyades, he shows, because their brother was Hyas, a
youth dearly beloved by his sisters. When he was killed in a lion
hunt, the five we have mentioned, given over to continual lamentation,
are said to have perished. Because they grieved exceedingly at his
death, they are called Hyades. The remaining ten brooded over the
death of their sisters, and brought death on themselves; because so
may experienced the same grief, they were called Pleiades. Alexander
says they were called Hyades because they were daughters of Hyas and
Boeotia, Pleiades, because born of Pleio, daughter of Oceanus, and
Atlas." - Hyginus, Astronomica 2.21

Some say that Bootes is the most ancient constellation in the sky.
Indeed, it has been reconized by numerous cultures in slightly
different forms. Even the Greeks were not clear on its history. The
first reference to the name Bootes comes from "The Odyssey" by Homer
almost three millenia ago.

In one of his most popular incarnations, he is called the Hunter and,
with his Hounds (Canes Venatici), he eternally circles the Bears, Ursa
Major and Ursa Minor, around the North Pole. In fact, the brightest
star in Bootes is Arcturus, which can be loosely translated as "Bear
Guard." He is also called the Herdsman and his journey around the
pole represents his task of keeping the celestial beasts together.

Another legend says that Bootes was the son of Zeus and Callisto. Hera
changed Callisto into a bear who was almost killed by Bootes when he
was out hunting. Luckily, she was rescued by Zeus and he took her into
the sky where she is now Ursa Major, the Great Bear. And yet another
myth says that he was the son of Demeter, the goddess of agriculture.
Supposedly he was given a place in the sky for inventing the plow.

Hyas was a daimon of seasonal rains, brother of the Hyades (Starry
Rain Nymphs), and a son of the firmament-bearing Titan Atlas.
As a young boy he was killed in the wilds by a lion. The gods then set
him amongst the stars as the Constellation Aquarius, along with the
lion Leo, and his five mourning sisters the Hyades. Aquarius and Leo
never share the sky at the same time, one sets as the other rises.
He was probably identified with Hylas, the young lover of Herakles who
dissappeared when he was sent to fetch water.

Valete bene!

Cato



SOURCES

Ovid, Hesiod, Hyginus

Salve Cicero

Roman society was more greatly stratified than are any societies
today. At the lowest end, the City had many residents who were not
citizens - as one example, the astrologers who kept being expelled,
and then some who would be slaves. These non-Romans would not have
been elegible for the bread rations. Freed slaves became Roman
citizens. They had the opportunity to make as much for themselves as
their skills would allow, but we would assume it was a rare case that
freedmen gained much above the lower rungs of Roman society. At the
lowest end of citizens then are the proletarii and the capiti censi.
Those who work for a wage and those with some property but not enough
to make the lowest grade of five census classes. It is not clear
just how far up, among the censorial classes, that the bread
distribution would have applied, so I don't know how anyone could
make an unqualified assertion that a majority in Rome were in the
breadlines.

At the other end, the classis prima had its various divisions. To be
in this class one had to demonstrate ownership of property worth
100,000 sestertii. Around the time of the Gracchi, those who were
well above that minimum, possessing 400,000 sestertii, began to be
popularly known as equites. The Equites were not a Middle Class but
instead the wealthiest class. Among them were the official Equites,
or more properly the equites equo publico who numbered only 1,800
men. Many of these 1,800 were Senatores. Beginning with Censor Cato,
an effort was made to have elderly Senatores give up their public
horses. Then in 129 BCE a plebiscitum equorum reddendorum was passed
that ordered all who were or would became senatores to surrender
their horses. Above the Equites Equo Publico then came the 300
Senatores. The Senatores were not so much a class in themselves, but
rather a subgroup among the Equites. Although quite wealthy, they
were limited in some ways on their economic ventures and were often
less wealthy than the other Equites whose economic interests they
served.

Within the Senate itself was then a rather small group, the nobiles,
who combined wealth, power, and prestige. In order to be a nobilis
one has to have an ancestor who attained the consulship. Consules,
Tribuni Plebes, and Praetores came almost exclusely from this portion
of society. A man whose ancestor was praetor might look forward to
one day atteining such a position, but he and his descendents were
unlikely to become a nobilis. After Sulla it became even more
difficult, and in fact only one person did attain the consulship
during the Late Republic who was not from a nobilis family, your
namesake Cicero.

My question would be, who does Prof. Stamp mean by the 1%. The
nobiles made up less than 1% I would think, while to identify the
Senate as the ruling 1% is not accurate either. Many Senatores
depended on wealthier men outside the Senate. Cicero might be used
as an example of a Senator, and a Nobilis, but comparatively not as
wealthy as others. And it should not be assumed that the 1% were
exclusely men. The Caecilii were extremely influential during the
Late Republic, at times women weilding their wealth for political
purposes.

As to Prof. Stamp's comments on the religious aspects of Rome, their
again I think you should look more into Roman society. There is no
distinction made between the living and dead members of a Roman
family. The lesser gods of the earth, and the celestial Gods, are
all part of the stratified Roman society. Also, not all these
deities were deities of the State. Next to Jupiter, the two most
important deities were Hercules and Silvanus (depending on time and
location). Even where state monies were voted to maintain some
temple or cultus, I think you might do better to view it in terms of
Rome's social dynamics than to dismiss it as politics.

Also, it is untrue that Roman religion was absent of any morals. One
could not perform ritual to the Gods while in an impure state. Not
showing proper respect to one's parents and ancestors is impietas.
Any act of killing, even if justified as when a soldier fights for
his country in war, required purification. Anyone who befouled a
sacred place or a sacred rite was guilty of incestum before the Gods.
Breaking an oath or contract sworn before the Gods was another
offense that could be taken as incestum, as is bearing false witness
before the Gods. Then, on the other hand, many of the legends told
by Livy, and stories related by Valerius Maximus and other, are
morality tales. Prof. Stamp seems to me to be a victim of an age old
prejudice that has blinded many on the religio Romana.

Vale optime et vade in pace Deorum
M Moravius Piscinus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "mrgrumpkin" <mrgrumpkin@...> wrote:
>
> I was listening to a Roman Historian give an online lecture
recently
> (his name was Jonathan Stamp) and I heard him say some pretty
radical
> things. Now I'm not in any questioning his intelligence, I know
that
> he has been studying Roman history, especially the collapse of the
> Republic much more than I have. regardless, I just wanted to bring
up
> some points and just get everybody's opinion on them.
>
> First thing--He said that "we know a real estate agents bill of a
> house that was sold in one end of the Forumn, and it was sold for
> about 15 million sestertii." That seems like quite a lot, however
I
> am no expert on Roman real estate practices. He then goes on to
say
> that out of Rome's population "the people that had the power, very
> small number of people, tiny percentage MAYBE ONE PERCENT." One
> percent seems miniscule, I always thought that Rome was slightly
more
> of an equal opportunity city, so long as you were at least a
freeborn
> pleb, but is that true? Only 1 percent of the people actually held
> the power? Then again, I guess that when you add our modern day
> senate/parliament and then our respective mega wealthy people all
of
> them put together would probably only make up 1% of the total
> population.
>
> He then says that nearly all of the people in Rome are "tagging
> along, and they're on the make, and they're hustling, and they're
> trying to make a buck... and nearly every single one of [the Roman
> people] are on the bread line." That seemed odd to me, I know that
> Rome did indeed have its slums, but I thought that it also had
plenty
> of prosperous people living behind the Servian Wall, all of whom
were
> perfectly capable of relying on themselves and not the state.
>
>
> Now the following are Stamp's remarks on religion-- "religion is
> every where in Rome, it's absolutely everywhere, its part of
> everything you do from the moment you get up in the morning to the
> moment you go bed a night. But religion has nothing to do with
> morality... it has nothing to do with right or wrong. Religion is
> there to protect the state, its there to keep Rome running. And
the
> reason you have so much religious ritual is 'cause you to do it
just
> right. If you, I mean there are--there's lots of examples of this--

> as a priest the only thing you had to do was you had to do the
ritual
> in the perfect order every single time, the same every time, if you
> screwed it up somewhere in the middle, you had to start again.
It's
> all to do with oiling the wheels of state, and in fact, priests
were
> more like politicians-- they didn't have some divine vocational
> calling, so [there was] lots of religion, but religion was [more of
> a] political activity... you learnt morals in the family, family
> life..."
>
> Just curious about the validity of some of the points, he was
> speaking in kind of a rush, and it seemed like he was having a
> microphone poked in his face so he might have been a bit flustered
at
> the time. As is, I figured that this would be the place to go.
> Can't wait to hear back!
>
> Valete,
>
> Cicero
>

Salvete omnes,

Senator C. Curi Saturnini brings up interesting points here
regarding this list. I suppose though that many of us who have been
entrenched in Nova Roma for several years could certainly adapt to
this list being removed and work out of the other more specialized
ones like the Senate list to NR philosophy and law. In that way we
could better stick to the business of Rome, stay focused on our
goals and our time might be better spent concentrating on our
volunteer jobs and positions here in NR rather than putting endless
hours of time and effort on the ML from campaigning to rabble
rousing.

On the other hand, as the senator mentioned, these lists are quite
common place now and nothing unique. This true. Go and have a look
at that Yahoo question and answer lists as well as face book and you
will see they are extremely popular and anything can be discussed
with no holds barred. On the question and answer, one gets
accumulated points for visiting, getting chosen for the best answer
etc. It is a perfect venue for trolls ranging from Klansmen to
religious fanatics but people are being attracted to it in droves. I
observe then that public forums are a place and venue that people
want. If you look at the number of postings on this ML (whether you
like their content or not) when compared to other specialized lists
in NR, the figures should speak for themselves. Here we can all meet
as citizens and associates and communicate with one another and at
least try to keep the ball rolling and some overall interest in the
organization as a whole before going about our daily business as the
Romans did in their town forums. If we drop this list I could see
everyone straying off to their own particular little corners and
specialties that interest them but perhaps not others and eventually
interest and enthusiasm would possibly decline. Also we ought not to
forget that many people who stumble into NR by accident or casual
browsing often end up on this list first like I did and can quickly
learn about the nitty gritty and get help navigating around better.

I know that this list has driven off academics or very serious
students at times, leaving a bitter taste in their mouths but if I
had the chance to talk with them I would have said that given the
relatively small size of many classic departments in this day and
age it would not be such a bad idea to participate and help to
encourage people to get enthusiastic and learn about the classics.
Even if a person is very uppity and well above the riff raff (by
academic standards), still they ought not to neglect the education
of their "inferiors". This could spell out more students and
interests in the classics down the road; in short - job security!

Based on my observations and feelings mentioned above, though
possibly eliminating idle chat, petty bickering, trolling and things
not directly related to Rome, eliminating this list would be
negative for NR in the long run, citizens would drift off to their
own corners and interest with any enthusiasm may gradually die.

Regards,
QSP











--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "C. Curius Saturninus"
<c.curius@...> wrote:

>
> Salvete,
>
> I have read only couple of messages in this discussion that has

been

> going on for some time, so please excuse me if I say something

that

> has been already said. In fact I know this has been said earlier,
> since I have written about this some months ago here and several
> times in other places, but I risk of repeating myself, since I

think

> this ought to be said again.
>
> I think NR should try to exist without main mailing list, at

least

> for some months as experiment. The reason why think this, is that
> over the years I have noticed that main mailing list seems to be
> almost sole common factor in most of the negative events in NR.
> Partly I think this is because there seems to be too much

variation

>

Snip for brevity.

Salvete omnes,

I just switched over from th dial up system for thje net and email to
ADSL high speed. Welcome to the 21st century Quintus! The old way was
cheaper but getting very frustrating; it sometimes took 5 minutes or
more to open messages on these lists and yahoo groups was stalling
like crazy.

Over the last week my communication was sporadic or down becuse Telus/
Datanet had a lot of difficulty getting a phone line port opened for
my area and number... whatever that means! Consequently I have to
answer some bacl logged emails that came to me over the last several
days from some of our citizens and I apologize for that delay.

Regards,

Quintus Suetonius Paulinus

Salvete omnes,

"Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@...> writes:
[in part]

> eliminating this list would be
> negative for NR in the long run, citizens would drift off to their
> own corners and interest with any enthusiasm may gradually die.

I agree. While the main list is where the storms brew up from time to time,
the reason is because it's our common meeting place. Let's not get rid of
it. That cure would be much worse than the disease.

Valete,

CN•EQVIT•MARINVS

M. Hortensia Saturnino Quiritibus spd;
I was surprised by Saturninus' words, what no ML, but
thinking about it I see the validity of his point.
Without the ML we'd be forced to DO something. All the idle
chatter, same old fights/factions would instantly disappear.
M. Hortensia Maior

>
> I agree. While the main list is where the storms brew up from time

to time,

> the reason is because it's our common meeting place. Let's not get

rid of

> it. That cure would be much worse than the disease.
>
> Valete,
>
> CN•EQVIT•MARINVS
>

Salve,

I'm in Nova Britannia. I really don't think I'm suitable to govern
anything, but if no one else will come forward, I will.

Vale,

Annia Minucia Marcella
http://minucia.ciarin.com


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Tiberius Galerius Paulinus"
<spqr753@...> wrote:

>
>
> Salvete Romans
>
> I recently issued a call to fill the vacancies in some of our
> Governorships .
>
> As of today we still need applicants for these Provinces
>
> Argentina
> Australia
> America Boreoccidentalis
> Britannia
> Germania
> Nova Britannia
>
> If you live in any one of these provinces please consider serving
>
> Valete
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>
> Consul
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

SALVETE!

Finally, Dacia has a webzine: "Dacia Felix".
It's in Romanian, but in the future, the most interesting articles
will be translated in English.
We started this webzine with small steps. We tried to present good
articles. But more important than these is the fact that we were able
to do a working team. As time as the team will function the webzine
will have a better quality, day after day.
Dacia Felix is to this address:

http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Dacia_Felix_%28Nova_Roma%29

I invite all citizens and probationary citizens from Dacia, able to
contribute, to join to our webzine mailing list. For the last ones
it's a good opportunity to start their activities in NR.

VALETE,
IVL SABINVS

Salvete Omnibus,

I am looking for an opinion on which books to purchase. I do have Adkins's
book "Dictionary of Roman Religion", but need to find something that is not
a dictionary form, so I get a better feel and understanding, maybe more like
a textbook.

The ones I was considering are:

"Roman Religion" by Valerie Warrior (should I also purchase her "Sourcebook"
as well?);
"Religions of Rome: Volumes 1" and "Volume 2" by Mary Beard;
"An Introduction to Roman Religion" by John Scheid.

I would be grateful for opinions and alternatives.

Also, I am very excited about the release of Denis Feeney's "Caesar's
Calendar: Ancient Time and the Beginnings of History" which gets released
next week. Very interested in calendrics, which leads nicely into a more in
depth study of Roman religion.

Di vos incolumes custodiant,

D�AEMILIVS�SEVERVS


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Agricola Maiori Omnibusque sal.

But how long before someone starts a new unofficial "forum"? Better
that we keep what we have. Still, I will repeat what I have often here
said. This isn't the best place to be, mostly. There are so many other
lists; provincial, topical, project-oriented. Best to keep an ear open
here and be active on those others.

optime vale, Amice, et valete!

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> M. Hortensia Saturnino Quiritibus spd;
> I was surprised by Saturninus' words, what no ML, but
> thinking about it I see the validity of his point.
> Without the ML we'd be forced to DO something. All the idle
> chatter, same old fights/factions would instantly disappear.
> M. Hortensia Maior
>
> >
> > I agree. While the main list is where the storms brew up from time
> to time,
> > the reason is because it's our common meeting place. Let's not get
> rid of
> > it. That cure would be much worse than the disease.
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > CN•EQVIT•MARINVS
> >
>

Agricola Severo sal.

I suggest you visit our web site at http://novaroma.org/nr/Main_Page

In the "CULTUS DEORUM" section, follow the "learn more" link. That
will bring you to a portal page. You will see a link for "Reading list
for the cultus deorum". Look especially in the "General" section. The
links on that page will bring you to Amazon or to the catalogs of many
major world libraries, so getting the materials in your hands couldn't
be easier.

optime vale!




--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "D. Aemilus Severus"
<daemilivssevervs@...> wrote:

>
> Salvete Omnibus,
>
> I am looking for an opinion on which books to purchase. I do have

Adkins's

> book "Dictionary of Roman Religion", but need to find something that

is not

> a dictionary form, so I get a better feel and understanding, maybe

more like

> a textbook.
>
> The ones I was considering are:
>
> "Roman Religion" by Valerie Warrior (should I also purchase her

"Sourcebook"

> as well?);
> "Religions of Rome: Volumes 1" and "Volume 2" by Mary Beard;
> "An Introduction to Roman Religion" by John Scheid.
>
> I would be grateful for opinions and alternatives.
>
> Also, I am very excited about the release of Denis Feeney's "Caesar's
> Calendar: Ancient Time and the Beginnings of History" which gets

released

> next week. Very interested in calendrics, which leads nicely into a

more in

> depth study of Roman religion.
>
> Di vos incolumes custodiant,
>
> D•AEMILIVS•SEVERVS
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

-M. Hortensia D.Aemilio spd;
Yes, go to the Wiki iuvente:)
I went over to Bryn Mawr Classical Review to check the Warrior book
out, and frankly I'd read it at the library but not buy it. Religion
books that rely on texts are just plain bad.

Why? Because the religion of a Cicero isn't what the average Gaia or
Gaius,[ hmm what is the Latin nomen that approximates 'Smith' }
practiced. You will get a very skewed view. A lararium, the public
celebrations, military religion, attending games, visiting a temple
with a request, practicing some form of divination: looking for
signs, belonging to a cult funeral association..are the majority
religion.

If you need a text, start with J. Scheid. He explains things
very cleanly & then I'd buy the Beard & North which is invaluable in
placing Roman religion in politics & also as cult practice.

Books that use texts, history, inscriptions, and archeology are the
best. Newly unearthed inscriptions show things like women prayed to
Hercules and Silvanus, while men to Bona Dea and Diana, dispelling
old ideas that women stuck to goddesses with 'female concerns and
men to gods(you'll find this in Scheid)
The Roman religion is a rewarding subject, but you need an
open mind, as it is an ongoing process of discovery.
bene vale
M. Hortensia Maior
producer 'Vox Romana'podcast
http://www.insulaumbra.com/voxromana/

Please listen to the latest podcast as Cn. Salvius Astur, pontifex
is giving a lecture on the Religio, next podcast is part 2.

> I am looking for an opinion on which books to purchase. I do have

Adkins's

> book "Dictionary of Roman Religion", but need to find something

that is not

> a dictionary form, so I get a better feel and understanding, maybe

more like

> a textbook.
>
> The ones I was considering are:
>
> "Roman Religion" by Valerie Warrior (should I also purchase

her "Sourcebook"

> as well?);
> "Religions of Rome: Volumes 1" and "Volume 2" by Mary Beard;
> "An Introduction to Roman Religion" by John Scheid.
>
> I would be grateful for opinions and alternatives.
>
> Also, I am very excited about the release of Denis

Feeney's "Caesar's

> Calendar: Ancient Time and the Beginnings of History" which gets

released

> next week. Very interested in calendrics, which leads nicely into

a more in

> depth study of Roman religion.
>
> Di vos incolumes custodiant,
>
> D•AEMILIVS•SEVERVS
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

A. Tullia Scholastica A. Apollonio Cordo quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque
bonae voluntatis S.P.D.

> A. Apollonius omnibus sal.
>
> I've been away for a while - did you notice?

Did we ever! We have missed you! Have you checked Triage?

>Apologies to anyone who tried to
> get hold of me over the last couple of months. I've just got time before
> supper to write a few paragraphs on various topics which have cropped up in
> this forum over that time; after supper I'll devote myself to the more
> important task of replying to accumulated private e-mail.
>
>
> Annia Minucia asked about the rule that a citizen can only be adopted by
> another citizen who is at least 18 years older. She said, "Who came up with
> the number [18]?", and Cn. Equitius replied, "I did". That's true: the lex
> which contains the 18-year rule was carried by Cn. Equitius. But he didn't
> pick it at random, or even choose it after careful consideration of various
> options: he took it straight from ancient Roman law. The Roman rule about
> adoption was "adoption imitates nature". If someone adopts a child, Roman law
> treats that child exactly the same as a biological child. But a biological
> child obviously has to be quite a lot younger than his or her parents - that's
> biology for you! Age-limits are always slightly arbitrary, but the Romans
> settled on 18 as the minimum legal age-gap between an adoptive parent and an
> adopted child. And if that was good enough for the old Romans, it's good
> enough for us.

Exactly. Why would anyone contest this? Even 18 is pushing it for
parenthood...

>
>
> L. Junius asked whether libel is difficult to prove in Nova Roma. Regrettably
> he's no longer with us, but his question is still worth answering briefly.
> Yes, it is very difficult to prove. The person suing has to prove, beyond
> reasonable doubt, *all* of the following:
> - a statement was made...
> - by the accused...
> - which was false...
> - and defamatory...
> - and that statement damaged his dignity or reputation.
>
> So if someone says "A. Apollonius is a fat bald woman" and I want to sue that
> person, I have to make a jury *sure* that I am not fat or bald or a woman,
> *and* that there is something defamatory, i.e. bad, about being called a fat
> bald woman, *and* that because of what that person said my reputation has been
> damaged.

Having seen you, I can guarantee that you are none of the above, though
of course the second might be in your future someday. You're so thin that
the first is highly unlikely...

>Unless I prove all those things, I lose. By contrast, the person
> I'm suing wins the case if he succeeds in making the jury unsure whether I am
> a fat bald woman, *or* in making the jury unsure whether there's really
> anything bad about being called a fat bald woman,

Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with being a woman--but
there are places and groups which have differing opinions about this. Sine
dubio, there are some among us here, too--even without Ap. Claudius Priscus.

>*or* in making the jury
> unsure whether anyone thinks any less of me because I've been called a fat
> bald woman.
>
> The result of all this is that suing for libel in Nova Roma is an extremely
> stupid thing to do. It basically gives a free opportunity to the person
> you're suing to produce as much evidence as he can that the nasty thing he
> said about you is true and that, even if it's not true, your reputation is
> already so bad that what he said made no difference to it.

Maybe that's why the trial was cancelled...

>
>

<snip much erudition...>

> Pompeja Minucia expressed some scepticism when A. Sempronius suggested that
> the pontifex maximus was elected annually during the republic. I too am very
> sceptical about that, to put it mildly. However, let us wait and see whether
> Regulus is able to find the sources which he mentioned last time the subject
> came up. In the mean time, though, I would like just to respectfully correct
> one item in Strabo's message on the subject. She wrote, "Now at one point a
> lex passed (sometime post Sulla) called the Lex
> Ovinia Tribunicia, which conferred a Senate seat upon the Flamen Dialis and
> the Pontifex Maximus... The purpose of the lex was to guide the Censors in
> their selection of Senators, which happened to include the above religious
> personnal". Actually the lex Ovinia was a long time *before* Sulla, probably
> about 313 B.C. It did guide the censores in their selection of senatores.
> However, there is no specific evidence that it gave the flamen Dialis a seat
> in the senate. The flamen Dialis was indeed entitled to sit in the senate,
> and that rule went back a long way, possibly to the Lex Ovinia, possibly
> earlier or later: we can't say. At no time, however, was the pontifex maximus
> entitled to sit in the senate by virtue of his pontificate (though in practice
> he was always a senator anyway).
>
>
> I was pleased to see L. Vitellius demanding more fiscal rigour and
> accountability from the senate, and I was rather dismayed to see so many
> dismissive responses to his demands. In particular I would like to reply to
> my friend Q. Suetonius, who wrote, "The attitude of what's in it for me and I
> ain't contributing nothing will certainly not help to ever improve things".

Very true. Triarius has left the ML, however, so he won't see your
remarks.

> (In fact this was not a response to L. Vitellius, but it was all part of the
> same discussion.) Actually I think things would be improved quite a lot if
> more of us took that sort of attitude, rather than the more fashionable
> attitude of "for the glory of the republic let's all throw money into the
> treasury and not worry too much if it never gets spent and we never know what
> happens to it or why we were asked to pay it in the first place". I do think
> we should pay our taxes, and indeed I think they should be compulsory. But I
> also think that we should complain about them very loudly, we should demand
> before
> we pay them that we should be told exactly what they are going to be spent on
> and why we should pay for whatever that turns out to be, and we should demand
> after we pay them that we should be told exactly what they have been spent on
> and what good that has done. I agree that it is not helpful to say "I'm not
> paying anything unless it gives me some benefit", but it is perfectly sensible
> and constructive to say "I'm not paying anything unless it gives *someone*
> some benefit". So three cheers to you, L. Vitelli. If more of us asked the
> questions you've been asking, perhaps we would see our taxes being spent more
> effectively and managed more transparently.
>
>
> And finally, I'd like to thank A. Tullia for that splendid remark she made:
> "Classicists don't lie". That gave me a good laugh. :)

Corde, amice, I am terribly sorry that a highly intelligent and
well-educated young man such as you has apparently never met a proper
classicist other than yours truly. One would have thought that someone who
was graced with a degree in ancient history from Oxford would have
encountered classicists at some point or another, even though you have moved
on to a field in which bending the truth is the way to get ahead, the way to
get your client off the hook, no matter how guilty of whatever crime.
There is a good reason why classicists of my vintage at least are not
proctored during examinations after the freshman year of college even when
the examination is held in the professor's book-lined office, why classics
majors are allowed to leave the examination room not only to visit the
lavatory but also to get something to eat, why classics majors are treated
very differently in this respect from most others. In case this escapes
you, amice, it is because classics majors don't cheat (which, of course, is
a form of lying), and don't indulge in lying which deserves that name (the
little white variety does not...). Now, I know of at least one who played
the ponies even when he was an undergraduate, and it was apparently illegal,
and I seem to recall one who had gone into politics in the mean time, and
had fallen into some qualities more typical of that crowd, but not even
there would one have suspected the need for proctoring.

You have met one proper classicist, Corde...surely there are some others
in England? Even where people drive on the wrong side of the street? ;-)
There MUST be classicists in England who honor the ways of our profession
rather than the base ones of certain other fields where knowledge is prized,
but bent to one's own advantage, and the truth is honored more in the breach
than the observance. Semper veritas est dura, sed multo melior quam
mendacia.

I do have a good sense of humor, but the fact that members of a
particular academic (or other) field do not share the prevailing view that
cheating is good, lying is acceptable, and stealing is perfectly fine under
certain circumstances at least is not something I at least find humorous.
It's just factual. No doubt there are other academic fields where such
behavior also applies, but from what I have heard, there are several where
no one would ever expect anything of the kind. Yes, it's unusual, but that
does not make it amusing or unreal...though unfortunately your generation
and even those before you have seen far less of personal honor than mine
has. That is a sad commentary on our times and the malign influence of a
certain device to which most of my juniors were exposed at highly
inappropriate ages, but it does not make the personal honor of classicists a
matter for humor or disbelief. Some of us have a bit of Klingon in with the
Vulcan...as do the non-bellicose legions of classicists.

>
>

Vale, et valete.

>

OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodie est ante diem V Kalendas Iunius; haec dies comitialis est.

"...day was all of a sudden changed into night. This event had been
foretold by Thales, the Milesian, who forewarned the Ionians of it,
fixing for it the very year in which it took place. The Medes and
Lydians, when they observed the change, ceased fighting, and were
alike anxious to have terms of peace agreed on." - Herodotus, writing
after the eclipse on May 28, 585

"The prophetic priestesses are moved [by the god] each in accordance
with her natural faculties...As a matter of fact, the voice is not
that of a god, nor the utterance of it, nor the diction, nor the
metre, but all these are the woman's; he [Apollo] puts into her mind
only the visions, and creates a light in her soul in regard to the
future; for inspiration is precisely this." - Plutarch, Moralia, "The
Oracles at Delphi"

"Straightway large-eyed queenly Hera took him [Typhaon] and bringing
one evil thing to another such, gave him to the Drakaina [Python]; and
she received him. And this Typhaon used to work great mischief among
the famous tribes of men. Whosoever met the Drakaina, the day of doom
would sweep him away, until the lord Apollon, who deals death from
afar, shot a strong arrow at her. Then she, rent with bitter pangs,
lay drawing great gasps for breath and rolling about that place. An
awful noise swelled up unspeakable as she writhed continually this way
and that amid the wood: and so she left her life, breathing it forth
in blood. Then Phoibos Apollon boasted over her: 'Now rot here upon
the soil that feeds man! You at least shall live no more to be a fell
bane to men who eat the fruit of the all-nourishing earth, and who
will bring hither perfect hecatombs. Against cruel death neither
Typhoios [her consort] shall avail you nor ill-famed Khimaira [her
spawn], but here, shall the Earth and shining Hyperion make you rot.'
Thus said Phoibos, exulting over her: and darkness covered her eyes.
And the holy strength of Helios made her rot away there; wherefore the
place is now called Pytho, and men call the lord Apollon by another
name, Pythian; because on that spot the power of piercing Helios made
the monster rot away." - Homeric Hymn 3 to Apollo 356

"[Apollon] killed the snake Python with a hundred arrows." - Greek
Lyric III Simonides, Frag 573 (from Julian, Letters)

"[The mythical musician] Olympos was the first to use the Lydian mode,
when he played on his pipes a lament for the Python." - Greek Lyric V
Melanippides, Frag 5 (from Plutarch, On Music)

"[Apollon] made his way to Delphoi, where Themis gave the oracles at
that time. When the serpent Python, which guarded the oracle, moved to
prevent Apollon from approaching the oracular opening, he slew it and
thus took command of the oracle." - Apollodorus, The Library 1.22

"Python, offspring of Terra [Gaia], was a huge Draco who, before the
time of Apollo, used to give oracular responses on Mount Parnassus.
Death was fated to come to him from the offspring of Latona [Leto]. At
that time Jove [Zeus] lay with Latona, daughter of Polus [Koios]. When
Juno [Hera] found this out, she decreed that Latona should give birth
at a place where the sun did not shine. When Python knew that Latona
was pregnant by Jove, he followed her to kill her. But by order of
Jove the wind Aquilo [Boreas] carried Latona away, and bore her to
Neptunus [Poseidon]. He protected her, but in order not to make voice
Juno's decree, he took her to the island Ortygia, and covered the
island with waves. When Python did not find her, he returned to
Parnassus. But Neptunus brought the island of Ortygia up to a higher
position; it was later called the island of Delos. There Latona,
clinging to an olive tree, bore Apollo and Diana [Artemis], to whom
Vulcanus [Hephaistos] gave arrows as gifts. Four days after they were
born, Apollo exacted vengeance for his mother. For he went to
Parnassus and slew Python with his arrows. Because of this deed he is
called Pythian. He put Python's bones in a cauldron, deposited them in
his temple, and instituted funeral games for him which are called
Pythian." - Hyginus, Fabulae 140

"When Tellus deep-coated with the slime of the late deluge, glowed
again beneath the warm caresses of the shining sun, she brought forth
countless species, some restored in ancient forms, some fashioned
weird and new. Indeed Tellus, against her will, produced a Serpens
never known before, the huge Python, a terror to men's new-made
tribes, so far it sprawled across the mountainside. The Deus
Arctitenens (Archer god) [Apollon], whose shafts till then were used
only against wild goats and fleeing deer, destroyed the monster with a
thousand arrows, his quiver almost emptied, and the wounds, black
wounds, poured forth their poison. Then to ensure the centuries should
have no power to dull the lustre of that deed, Phoebus founded the
sacred games, the crowded contests, known as Pythian from that Serpens
overthrown." - Ovid, Metamorphoses 1.434

In ancient Greece today was the celebration of the Pythian Games at
the Oracle at Delphi, in honor of the slaying of the Python by Apollon
(Apollo). The Python was a monstrous serpent which Gaia (Mother
Earth) appointed to guard the oracle at Delphi. The beast was
sometimes said to have been born from the rotting slime left behind
after the great Deluge. When Apollon laid claim to the shrine, he
slew the dragon with his arrows. The oracle and festival of the god
were then named Pytho and Pythian from the rotting (pythô) corpse of
the beast. According to some, Apollon slew the monster to avenge his
mother Leto, who had been pursued relentlessly by the dragon during
her long pregnancy.

Valete bene!

Cato



SOURCES

Appolodorus, Hyginus, Plutarch, Ovid, Herodotus, theoi.com

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Salvete Omnes,

Please be sure to cast your ballots in the current election for Rogator. You
may do so by going to http://www.novaroma.org/civitas/vote and following the
directions there.

Valete,

CN•EQVIT•MARINVS

A.Liburnius M. Maiori Quiritibusque S.P.D.

The pantheon is not state-owned. It is owned by the catholic churh
since 608 A.D.
Since Medieval times important citizens were granted the honor of
being buried inside churches rather than in cemeteries.
Occasionally the smell of decomposing bodies would be noticed by the
populace, hence the english saying "stinking rich".
The Royal Guard is not an arm of the Italian republican government,
as the poster informed me. All the surviving members were appointed
by the house of Savoy, before the proclamation of the republic in
1946.
The idea is excellent, the chances of the Catholic church letting go
of a price possession are somewhere between fat and slim...8-)

Vale valeteque
A. Liburnius

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> M. Hortensia A. Liburnio spd;
> is there a state-owned temple Liburne? Would any of the
Itali
> know? This really is an excellent idea.Symbols are extremely
> important and the news loves them. Metaphorical hats off to Aquila
> for having this idea.
> I'd post it myself on the NRItalia list but I'm waiting for
> my new Italian dictionary to arrive;-)
> bene vale
> M. Hortensia Maior
> >
> > A.Liburnius Quiritibus S.P.D.
> >
> > I have received some answers from the Italian mailing list and
> they
> > confirm my previous suspicions:
> >
> > ----------------------------
> > ...confermo, il Pantheon è ufficialmente la Chiesa di Santa Maria
> ad
> > Martyres e lo è dal 608 d.C., quando l'imperatore bizantino Foca
> la
> > donò alla Chiesa (in tale occasione fu eretto l'ultimo monumento
> nel
> > Foro, la Colonna di Foca appunto)...
> >
> > I confirm that the Pantheon is officially the church of "Santa
> Maria
> > ad Martyres" and has been so since 608 A.D., when the byzantine
> > emperor Phocas deeded it to the church (in such occasion was
> erected
> > the last monument in the forum, namely Phocas' column).
> >
> > ----------------------------
> >
> > ...è anche utilizzato notoriamente come illustre sepolcro per
> > personaggi come Raffaello o Vittorio Emanuele II...
> >
> > It is also notoriously utilized as the famous of individuals such
> as
> > Raphael and King Victor Emanuel II...
> >
> > ----------------------------
> >
> > ...E' sicuramente usato ecclesiasticamente (notevoli le messe di
> > natale)...
> >
> > It is definetely used ecclesiastically (worth mentioning are the
> > Christmass masses).
> >
> > ----------------------------
> >
> > ...è tuttora in attività una associazione denominata "guardie
> reali
> > del Pantheon", il cui compito è quello di rendere omaggio alle
> tombe
> > dei regnanti Savoia che vi sono tumulati.
> > L'associazione ha una sede ufficiale in una stradina chiusa,
> > laterale al Pantheon, ed i suoi membri ( o meglio i superstiti,
> > essendo quasi tutti molto anziani) dispongono di una divisa con
> > mantello che indossano con grande sussiego quando montano di
> guardia
> > alle tombe reali...
> >
> >
> > There is still an association named "royal guards of the
> Pantheon",
> > whose task is to pay homage to the tumbs of the royal house of
> > Savoy, there enshrined. the association has its official
residence
> > in a dead end street on one side of the Pantheon, and its members
> > (or better the survivors, as thy are all very old) are equipped
> with
> > a parade uniform with cape, that they wear with much seriousness,
> > when they are on duty by the royal tumbs.
> >
> > ----------------------------
> >
> > ...Una curiosità: il tamburo della cupola è il più grande di
Roma,
> > anche più di quello della cupola di s. Pietro...
> >
> > As a curiosity the drum of the cupola is the biggest in Rome and
> > surpasses even the one in Saint Peter.
> >
> > ----------------------------
> >
> > I hope that helps.
> >
> > Valete
> > ALH
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Aulus Liburnius Hadrianus"
> > <reenbru@> wrote:
> > >
> > > A. Liburnius omnibus S.P.D.
> > >
> > > Unless I am mistaken, the Pantheon is ecclesiastic, not public
> > > property. It also known as "Santa Maria Rotonda" (or "Saint
> Mary,
> > > the Round"). It may actually still be a parish church.
> > >
> > > I will post the question on the Italian Web Site to get some
> > answers.
> > >
> > > Valete
> > > Aulus Liburnius Hadrianus
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "titus.aquila"
<titus.aquila@>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Titus Flavius Aquila Flavio Galeri Aureliane salutem plurimam
> > > dicit.
> > > >
> > > > Thank you for your open minded response and with all respect,
> > > > sometimes it needs a small donkey to get working and a small
> > > donkey
> > > > when starting to work can achieve a lot.
> > > >
> > > > I have opened the discussion as I would like to see Nova Roma
> > grow
> > > > and get better known in the public .
> > > >
> > > > Yes, we are meeting locally and that's great and a lot of
> effort
> > > is
> > > > put into these local meetings, but does it really help us
grow
> > or
> > > > get better known in the world ?
> > > >
> > > > For the Pantheon petition, well we never have tried , have
> we ?
> > We
> > > > do have Italian Citizens as our Nova Roma Citizens, so why
not
> > > give
> > > > it a try.
> > > >
> > > > Even stumbling blocks can be turned into rolling stones in
our
> > > favor
> > > > if we push hard enough.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Diis bene iuvantibus sumus
> > > >
> > > > Valete
> > > > Titus Flavius Aquila
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

A. Liburnius Quiritibus S.P.D.

I joined after lurching on mailing list for a while. Without it, I
would not have joined at all.

Valete
A. Liburnius

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "M. Lucretius Agricola"
<wm_hogue@...> wrote:

>
> Agricola Maiori Omnibusque sal.
>
> But how long before someone starts a new unofficial "forum"? Better
> that we keep what we have. Still, I will repeat what I have often

here

> said. This isn't the best place to be, mostly. There are so many

other

> lists; provincial, topical, project-oriented. Best to keep an ear

open

> here and be active on those others.
>
> optime vale, Amice, et valete!
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@> wrote:
> >
> > M. Hortensia Saturnino Quiritibus spd;
> > I was surprised by Saturninus' words, what no ML, but
> > thinking about it I see the validity of his point.
> > Without the ML we'd be forced to DO something. All the

idle

> > chatter, same old fights/factions would instantly disappear.
> > M. Hortensia Maior
> >
> > >
> > > I agree. While the main list is where the storms brew up from

time

> > to time,
> > > the reason is because it's our common meeting place. Let's not

get

> > rid of
> > > it. That cure would be much worse than the disease.
> > >
> > > Valete,
> > >
> > > CN•EQVIT•MARINVS
> > >
> >
>

Ex offico Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

Pursuant to the Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Populi Tributorum, I here by amend Consuls Faustus election call to increase the voting time to the legally required 120 hours for voting.


Therefore the Contio starts now, VI Kal Iun (26th May) (14:20 Rome), and goes until 14:20 Rome time of VI Kal. Iun (28th May).

The Voting starts at 14:21 Rome time of (28th May) and goes until
23:59 Rome time the a.d. IV Non. Iun (2nd of June)


Given under my hand this 28TH day of May, 2007 C.E. at 8:05 pm Roman time.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete Nova Romans

Acting in her capacity as Custos Pompeia Minucia Tiberia has brought to Consul Faustus and my attention the fact that the time for voting needed to be extended..

Thank you Pompeia Minucia Tiberia for doing so.

Valete

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

Consul


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Consul,

What of votes already cast?

Vale,

CN•EQVIT•MARINVS

Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@...> writes:

> Ex offico Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>
> Pursuant to the Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Populi Tributorum, I here
> by amend Consuls Faustus election call to increase the voting time to the
> legally required 120 hours for voting.
>
>
> Therefore the Contio starts now, VI Kal Iun (26th May) (14:20 Rome), and
> goes until 14:20 Rome time of VI Kal. Iun (28th May).
>
> The Voting starts at 14:21 Rome time of (28th May) and goes until
> 23:59 Rome time the a.d. IV Non. Iun (2nd of June)
>
>
> Given under my hand this 28TH day of May, 2007 C.E. at 8:05 pm Roman time.

Salve Gnaeus Equitius Marinus

The edict simply extends the amount of time for casting a vote as required by law.

If would not effect any votes already cast as it only added time to the election.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

----- Original Message -----
From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus<mailto:gawne@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 2:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] EDICT XIII MMDCCLX: Election Extention


Salve Consul,

What of votes already cast?

Vale,

CN.EQVIT.MARINVS

Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@...<mailto:spqr753@...>> writes:

> Ex offico Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>
> Pursuant to the Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Populi Tributorum, I here
> by amend Consuls Faustus election call to increase the voting time to the
> legally required 120 hours for voting.
>
>
> Therefore the Contio starts now, VI Kal Iun (26th May) (14:20 Rome), and
> goes until 14:20 Rome time of VI Kal. Iun (28th May).
>
> The Voting starts at 14:21 Rome time of (28th May) and goes until
> 23:59 Rome time the a.d. IV Non. Iun (2nd of June)
>
>
> Given under my hand this 28TH day of May, 2007 C.E. at 8:05 pm Roman time.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tibi gratias!

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> M.Hortensia Quiritibus spd;
> today celebrates the die natalis, the founding of the temple of the
> goddess the Public Fortune of the Roman People. She is the protector
> of the Roman people.
> Fortuna is an ancient Italic goddess of abundance and preserver of
> cities and not the capricious diety of the Greeks. Do see the NRwiki
> article I have written in her honour:
>
> http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Fortuna
> There are numerous temples in Rome to great goddess Fortuna;
> http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Aedes_Fortunae_Huiusce_Diei this has
> some wonderful pictures.
> And here:
> http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Aedes_Fortunae_Populi_Romani_Quiritium_Pri
> magenia_%28Nova_Roma%29
> or try this link:
> http://tinyurl.com/29trs3
>
> is my online temple dedeicated to dea Fortuna. Please visit and
> leave a prayer or carmen for this great goddess.
> and if you would like to read more on her cultus here is an
> excellent study:
> http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Reading_list_for_the_cultus_deorum
> As you can see, there is also links for a rite for Fortuna which
> I will be writing.
>
> All this research and work is now available in the Nova Roma Wiki
> for all cultores and cives. You too can write an article, and create
> an online temple to honour the dii et deae. I encourage all Nova
> Romans to contribute to this Wiki. It isn't hard and there are many
> easy templates.
>
> So this is my offering : May Fortuna favor our Res Publica!
>
> Marca Hortensia Maior
> civis et cultrix Novae Romae
>

Salve Consul,

Thank you for the clarification.

CN•EQVIT•MARINVS

Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@...> writes:

> Salve Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
>
> The edict simply extends the amount of time for casting a vote as required
> by law.
>
> If would not effect any votes already cast as it only added time to the
> election.
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

J. Scheid's Introduction to Roman Religion is recommended as required
reading by the College of Pontiffs.

Fl. Galerius Aurelianus
Flamen Cerialis



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 5/27/2007 10:26:39 PM Central Daylight Time,
rory12001@... writes:

Books that use texts, history, inscriptions, and archeology are the
best. Newly unearthed inscriptions show things like women prayed to
Hercules and Silvanus, while men to Bona Dea and Diana, dispelling
old ideas that women stuck to goddesses with 'female concerns and
men to gods(you'll find this in Scheid)
The Roman religion is a rewarding subject, but you need an
open mind, as it is an ongoing process of discovery.

Fl. Galerius Aurelianus sal.

The above statement is partially inaccurate. Women were forbidden to be
present during the opening ceremonies of certain rites to Hercules and Silvanus
not forbidden to pray to Hercules and Silvanus. I know nothing in my English
translation of Scheid that states women did not pray to Hercules.

Hercules was considered a patron god among businessmen (and women) as well
as the patron God of Herculaneum. It is doubtful that women could not offer
sacrifice to Hercules or participate in portions of His rites other than the
opening rites. The cult of Silvanus is more of a question but Silvanus ranks
as one of the four principal gods that are found on surviving inscriptions.
Silvanus had control of all unimproved or wild land. Invocations to Silvanus
were an essential part of the dedication, purification, and consecration of
many a shrine (templum).

Valete.

bene vale
M. Hortensia Maior
producer 'Vox Romana'podcast
_http://www.insulaumhttp://www.insulht_
(http://www.insulaumbra.com/voxromana/)







************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

M. Hortensia Fl. Galerio spd;
so far the majority opinion of current scholarly
research is that women were forbidden to worship Hercules ONLY at
the Ara Maxima :
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Reading_list_for_the_cultus_deorum
Do look at Women's Religious Activity & "La Vie Religieuse des
Matrones.." which I've put into the Wiki & all the footnotes
naturally.

If you say I am, or rather the reseach is inaccurate, what are your
references for both Hercules and Silvanus. If you make a statement
like that you must please give some facts.

If you look at Scheid, p. 155 he lists Roman dieties & patronage.
There is "Bona Dea" & matronae, "Diana" women, re-inforces outmoded
ways of understanding the Religio.

I've found such outright dated & simply wrong research that was
presented by some pontifices, that I will only discuss the
historical Religio with someone if they support their opinion with
titles of books & footnotes. So we can have a sensible discussion

As a side note. Why do you always reply when I post about the
Religio?
vale
M. Hortensia Maior

>
> The above statement is partially inaccurate. Women were forbidden

to be

> present during the opening ceremonies of certain rites to Hercules

and Silvanus

> not forbidden to pray to Hercules and Silvanus. I know nothing

in my English

> translation of Scheid that states women did not pray to Hercules.
>
> Hercules was considered a patron god among businessmen (and women)

as well

> as the patron God of Herculaneum. It is doubtful that women could

not offer

> sacrifice to Hercules or participate in portions of His rites

other than the

> opening rites. The cult of Silvanus is more of a question but

Silvanus ranks

> as one of the four principal gods that are found on surviving

inscriptions.

> Silvanus had control of all unimproved or wild land. Invocations

to Silvanus

> were an essential part of the dedication, purification, and

consecration of

> many a shrine (templum).
>
> Valete.
>
> bene vale
> M. Hortensia Maior
> producer 'Vox Romana'podcast
> _http://www.insulaumhttp://www.insulht_
> (http://www.insulaumbra.com/voxromana/)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ************************************** See what's free at

http://www.aol.com

>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

M.Hortensia A. Liburnio Quiritibusque spd:
ecastor Liburne,'stinking rich' I had no idea where that
came from & it is likely I shall never forget;-) Many thanks for
that treat!
Well how about requesting the State to permit Roman cultores to
offer at the beautiful temple of Portunus or the sublime Temple of
Hercules at the Forum Boiarum? Both in the Forum.

They are not churches & the property is state-owned. This is a great
idea, & would celebrate the greatness & continuity of Rome. We can
brainstorm, I really think this is possible.
valete in pacem deorum
M. Hortensia Maior

> Occasionally the smell of decomposing bodies would be noticed by

the

> populace, hence the english saying "stinking rich".
> .
> The idea is excellent, the chances of the Catholic church letting

go

> of a price possession are somewhere between fat and slim...8-)
>
> Vale valeteque
> A. Liburnius
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@> wrote:
> >
> > M. Hortensia A. Liburnio spd;
> > is there a state-owned temple Liburne? Would any of the
> Itali
> > know? This really is an excellent idea.Symbols are extremely
> > important and the news loves them. Metaphorical hats off to

Aquila

> > for having this idea.
> > I'd post it myself on the NRItalia list but I'm waiting

for

> > my new Italian dictionary to arrive;-)
> > bene vale
> > M. Hortensia Maior
> > >
> > > A.Liburnius Quiritibus S.P.D.
> > >
> > > I have received some answers from the Italian mailing list

and

> > they
> > > confirm my previous suspicions:
> > >
> > > ----------------------------
> > > ...confermo, il Pantheon è ufficialmente la Chiesa di Santa

Maria

> > ad
> > > Martyres e lo è dal 608 d.C., quando l'imperatore bizantino

Foca

> > la
> > > donò alla Chiesa (in tale occasione fu eretto l'ultimo

monumento

> > nel
> > > Foro, la Colonna di Foca appunto)...
> > >
> > > I confirm that the Pantheon is officially the church of "Santa
> > Maria
> > > ad Martyres" and has been so since 608 A.D., when the

byzantine

> > > emperor Phocas deeded it to the church (in such occasion was
> > erected
> > > the last monument in the forum, namely Phocas' column).
> > >
> > > ----------------------------
> > >
> > > ...è anche utilizzato notoriamente come illustre sepolcro per
> > > personaggi come Raffaello o Vittorio Emanuele II...
> > >
> > > It is also notoriously utilized as the famous of individuals

such

> > as
> > > Raphael and King Victor Emanuel II...
> > >
> > > ----------------------------
> > >
> > > ...E' sicuramente usato ecclesiasticamente (notevoli le messe

di

> > > natale)...
> > >
> > > It is definetely used ecclesiastically (worth mentioning are

the

> > > Christmass masses).
> > >
> > > ----------------------------
> > >
> > > ...è tuttora in attività una associazione denominata "guardie
> > reali
> > > del Pantheon", il cui compito è quello di rendere omaggio alle
> > tombe
> > > dei regnanti Savoia che vi sono tumulati.
> > > L'associazione ha una sede ufficiale in una stradina chiusa,
> > > laterale al Pantheon, ed i suoi membri ( o meglio i

superstiti,

> > > essendo quasi tutti molto anziani) dispongono di una divisa

con

> > > mantello che indossano con grande sussiego quando montano di
> > guardia
> > > alle tombe reali...
> > >
> > >
> > > There is still an association named "royal guards of the
> > Pantheon",
> > > whose task is to pay homage to the tumbs of the royal house of
> > > Savoy, there enshrined. the association has its official
> residence
> > > in a dead end street on one side of the Pantheon, and its

members

> > > (or better the survivors, as thy are all very old) are

equipped

> > with
> > > a parade uniform with cape, that they wear with much

seriousness,

> > > when they are on duty by the royal tumbs.
> > >
> > > ----------------------------
> > >
> > > ...Una curiosità: il tamburo della cupola è il più grande di
> Roma,
> > > anche più di quello della cupola di s. Pietro...
> > >
> > > As a curiosity the drum of the cupola is the biggest in Rome

and

> > > surpasses even the one in Saint Peter.
> > >
> > > ----------------------------
> > >
> > > I hope that helps.
> > >
> > > Valete
> > > ALH
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Aulus Liburnius Hadrianus"
> > > <reenbru@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > A. Liburnius omnibus S.P.D.
> > > >
> > > > Unless I am mistaken, the Pantheon is ecclesiastic, not

public

> > > > property. It also known as "Santa Maria Rotonda" (or "Saint
> > Mary,
> > > > the Round"). It may actually still be a parish church.
> > > >
> > > > I will post the question on the Italian Web Site to get some
> > > answers.
> > > >
> > > > Valete
> > > > Aulus Liburnius Hadrianus
> > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "titus.aquila"
> <titus.aquila@>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Titus Flavius Aquila Flavio Galeri Aureliane salutem

plurimam

> > > > dicit.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you for your open minded response and with all

respect,

> > > > > sometimes it needs a small donkey to get working and a

small

> > > > donkey
> > > > > when starting to work can achieve a lot.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have opened the discussion as I would like to see Nova

Roma

> > > grow
> > > > > and get better known in the public .
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes, we are meeting locally and that's great and a lot of
> > effort
> > > > is
> > > > > put into these local meetings, but does it really help us
> grow
> > > or
> > > > > get better known in the world ?
> > > > >
> > > > > For the Pantheon petition, well we never have tried , have
> > we ?
> > > We
> > > > > do have Italian Citizens as our Nova Roma Citizens, so why
> not
> > > > give
> > > > > it a try.
> > > > >
> > > > > Even stumbling blocks can be turned into rolling stones in
> our
> > > > favor
> > > > > if we push hard enough.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Diis bene iuvantibus sumus
> > > > >
> > > > > Valete
> > > > > Titus Flavius Aquila
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Salvete,

I consider the Main List as our Forum Romanum , please let me
explain why.

Roma Antiqua had its Forum Romanum as a central meeting place to
discuss, argue or yes, just to exchange gossips. Quite sure , you
will agree that the Forum Romanum was one, if not the central part
of Rome where Roman citizens could meet. We do not have the chance
to meet to often face to face that's why we need the Main List.
The Forum Romanum was always considered as the center of the
political power of the City of Rome and a place where the citizen
could speak up.
I agree that sometimes the Main List can be a pain in the neck , but
it is for sure the liveliest place we have at Nova Roma and I do not
want to miss it !

That's why I am not supporting the idea to get rid off it .


Valete bene
Titus Flavius Aquila





--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "C. Curius Saturninus"
<c.curius@...> wrote:

>
> Salvete,
>
> I have read only couple of messages in this discussion that has

been

> going on for some time, so please excuse me if I say something

that

> has been already said. In fact I know this has been said earlier,
> since I have written about this some months ago here and several
> times in other places, but I risk of repeating myself, since I

think

> this ought to be said again.
>
> I think NR should try to exist without main mailing list, at

least

> for some months as experiment. The reason why think this, is that
> over the years I have noticed that main mailing list seems to be
> almost sole common factor in most of the negative events in NR.
> Partly I think this is because there seems to be too much

variation

> in people's expectation about nature of this mailing list:
> -some see this as mailing list for light chatting
> -some think it should be a place of serious discussion
> -some say it's our Forum
> -some say it's just a mailing list
> -some see it mainly as place for NR politics
> -some would like to see no politics here at all
> -some see it of periferial meaning for NR
> -some think this is the NR
> -etc.
>
> Of course it is natural that people have different ideas, but I

think

> that in the case of this main mailing list the expectations are

more

> varied than it is healthy. For example there was a message here

some

> time ago protesting against paying taxes for Yahoo mailing list
> membership, and I'm sure there has been at least one message in

the

> past few weeks in which this mailing list is referred as "our

Forum".

> Or for example I would like to see this list as a place for

serious

> and slow paced scholary discussion, and as a informing list about
> elections etc. important things, and even while I'm Senator and
> magistrate I don't read nearly all messages here, even while some
> people think that if an issue is posted here, then every

magistrate

> and Senator should know about it.
>
> Partly it is also because people have different expectations and
> ideas about NR in general, each of us probably see this mailing

list

> also in light of what we think NR is.
>
> One view to the matter is also the net-social function of this
> mailing list. What I mean by this is that when NR opened it's

mailing

> list and during the first years of it's existence, the mailing

lists

> were part of online culture in different way than in nowadays. We
> must not ignore the changes in the net-culture in general and we
> cannot swim against the tide. We can and must try to create our

own

> net-culture, but it has to face some realities too. For example
> nowadays there are literally endless amount of mailing lists and
> discussion groups, it's nothing special anymore. Our group, i.e.

the

> main list, cannot anymore attract just about anyone interested in
> Roman things because there's so much competition. We should pay
> attention to what kind of people this YahooGroup attracts, and

draw

> conclusions about that.
>
> Also nowadays a much higher grade of spesification from net-

service

> is expected than it was about 10 years ago, Western culture has
> tendency of fragmentation and spesification, as can be also seen

in

> the changes in net-culture: for example see the popularity of

wikipedia.

>
> Based on all these points I'd like to see NR without main mailing
> list. Instead of it:
> -automatic inclusion of all citizens into InfoNR -list, be it

hosted

> by Yahoo or by our own server, with moderation and posting of
> official announcements only
> -message boards for spesific areas like sodalitates embedded into

NR

> wiki site pages
> -rebuilding of NR YahooGroups to correspond different social

groups

> based in ancient Roman concepts (e.g. cult-groups, professional
> guilds etc.)
> -keeping of some NR YahooGroups like newroman group, which really
> function and serve the needs of people
> -real advertising of NR to overcome main list marketing capacity

loss

>
> In this way we would have more Roman social organisation as well

as

> more efficient and modern one.
>
> At least it might do good just to divide aspects of this mailing

list

> to several others. For example to make it forbidden to post

official

> announcements here in favour of NRAnnounce -list, or any other

kind

> of separation into different lists to clarify the role this list

has.

>
> Valete,
>
>
> On 27.5.2007, at 8:07, Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>
> > 5.6. Re: Taxes, postal mail, who does what, and our organization
> > Posted by: "L. Vitellius Triarius"
> > lucius_vitellius_triarius@... lucius_vitellius_triarius
> > Date: Sat May 26, 2007 9:31 am ((PDT))
> >
> > Salvete,
> >
> > It seems to me that there should be some changes in the way this
> > organization works, since we just continue to experience

decreases in

> > membership and have over a prolonged period of time.

Unfortunately, no

> > one, for the most part, in this group can take any constructive
> > criticism, nor are they willing to accept any new ideas for
> > discussion. If anyone makes a statement about ANYTHING, someone

has to

> > make a sophomoric comment and everyone jumps on the band wagon.
> >
> > So, I retract any suggestions that I have made thus far

concerning any

> > improvements, since evidently, there are no needed changes.
> >
> > As far as my wife's application. No need to pursue that either.
> > Evidently, I am but a mere liar, whose words are not worth much.

I

> > thank you for the opportunity to have posted over the last

couple of

> > years, but my interests in Nova Roma have changed now. I stopped
> > posting to this list for over a year because no one but a select

hand

> > full of you apparently want anyone to post anything other than
> > yourselves, in which you use this list as an electronic rostra to
> > insult and degrade others. So, have at it. I will no longer be

posting

> > to this list.
> >
> > You should rename the list Forum Iuventus.
> >
> > Vale,
> > Triarius
>
> C. Curius Saturninus
>
> Senator - Aedilis Plebis - Propraetor Provinciae Thules
> Rector Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
>
> e-mail: c.curius@...
> www.academiathules.org
>

Titus Flavius Aquila Marcia Hortensia Maior spd:

thank you very much for your support.

I like the idea of an state owned temple as well. To my knowledge we
have never tried to hand in a petition to the Italian state, we
should really do it, this would bring us a big step forward and it
would be a symbol for the world that Nova Roma is growing and will
support the greatness of Rome.

In Germany we have a saying/proverb which states:
He who fights might loose
He who does not fight has lost already

So let's give it a try !

May the gods grant us further prosperity & joy!

Vale bene
Titus Flavius Aquila

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> M.Hortensia A. Liburnio Quiritibusque spd:
> ecastor Liburne,'stinking rich' I had no idea where
that
> came from & it is likely I shall never forget;-) Many thanks for
> that treat!
> Well how about requesting the State to permit Roman cultores
to
> offer at the beautiful temple of Portunus or the sublime Temple
of
> Hercules at the Forum Boiarum? Both in the Forum.
>
> They are not churches & the property is state-owned. This is a
great
> idea, & would celebrate the greatness & continuity of Rome. We can
> brainstorm, I really think this is possible.
> valete in pacem deorum
> M. Hortensia Maior
>
>
>
> > Occasionally the smell of decomposing bodies would be noticed by
> the
> > populace, hence the english saying "stinking rich".
> > .
> > The idea is excellent, the chances of the Catholic church
letting
> go
> > of a price possession are somewhere between fat and slim...8-)
> >
> > Vale valeteque
> > A. Liburnius
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > >
> > > M. Hortensia A. Liburnio spd;
> > > is there a state-owned temple Liburne? Would any of the
> > Itali
> > > know? This really is an excellent idea.Symbols are extremely
> > > important and the news loves them. Metaphorical hats off to
> Aquila
> > > for having this idea.
> > > I'd post it myself on the NRItalia list but I'm waiting
> for
> > > my new Italian dictionary to arrive;-)
> > > bene vale
> > > M. Hortensia Maior
> > > >
> > > > A.Liburnius Quiritibus S.P.D.
> > > >
> > > > I have received some answers from the Italian mailing list
> and
> > > they
> > > > confirm my previous suspicions:
> > > >
> > > > ----------------------------
> > > > ...confermo, il Pantheon è ufficialmente la Chiesa di Santa
> Maria
> > > ad
> > > > Martyres e lo è dal 608 d.C., quando l'imperatore bizantino
> Foca
> > > la
> > > > donò alla Chiesa (in tale occasione fu eretto l'ultimo
> monumento
> > > nel
> > > > Foro, la Colonna di Foca appunto)...
> > > >
> > > > I confirm that the Pantheon is officially the church
of "Santa
> > > Maria
> > > > ad Martyres" and has been so since 608 A.D., when the
> byzantine
> > > > emperor Phocas deeded it to the church (in such occasion was
> > > erected
> > > > the last monument in the forum, namely Phocas' column).
> > > >
> > > > ----------------------------
> > > >
> > > > ...è anche utilizzato notoriamente come illustre sepolcro
per
> > > > personaggi come Raffaello o Vittorio Emanuele II...
> > > >
> > > > It is also notoriously utilized as the famous of individuals
> such
> > > as
> > > > Raphael and King Victor Emanuel II...
> > > >
> > > > ----------------------------
> > > >
> > > > ...E' sicuramente usato ecclesiasticamente (notevoli le
messe
> di
> > > > natale)...
> > > >
> > > > It is definetely used ecclesiastically (worth mentioning are
> the
> > > > Christmass masses).
> > > >
> > > > ----------------------------
> > > >
> > > > ...è tuttora in attività una associazione
denominata "guardie
> > > reali
> > > > del Pantheon", il cui compito è quello di rendere omaggio
alle
> > > tombe
> > > > dei regnanti Savoia che vi sono tumulati.
> > > > L'associazione ha una sede ufficiale in una stradina chiusa,
> > > > laterale al Pantheon, ed i suoi membri ( o meglio i
> superstiti,
> > > > essendo quasi tutti molto anziani) dispongono di una divisa
> con
> > > > mantello che indossano con grande sussiego quando montano di
> > > guardia
> > > > alle tombe reali...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > There is still an association named "royal guards of the
> > > Pantheon",
> > > > whose task is to pay homage to the tumbs of the royal house
of
> > > > Savoy, there enshrined. the association has its official
> > residence
> > > > in a dead end street on one side of the Pantheon, and its
> members
> > > > (or better the survivors, as thy are all very old) are
> equipped
> > > with
> > > > a parade uniform with cape, that they wear with much
> seriousness,
> > > > when they are on duty by the royal tumbs.
> > > >
> > > > ----------------------------
> > > >
> > > > ...Una curiosità: il tamburo della cupola è il più grande di
> > Roma,
> > > > anche più di quello della cupola di s. Pietro...
> > > >
> > > > As a curiosity the drum of the cupola is the biggest in Rome
> and
> > > > surpasses even the one in Saint Peter.
> > > >
> > > > ----------------------------
> > > >
> > > > I hope that helps.
> > > >
> > > > Valete
> > > > ALH
> > > >
> > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Aulus Liburnius
Hadrianus"
> > > > <reenbru@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > A. Liburnius omnibus S.P.D.
> > > > >
> > > > > Unless I am mistaken, the Pantheon is ecclesiastic, not
> public
> > > > > property. It also known as "Santa Maria Rotonda"
(or "Saint
> > > Mary,
> > > > > the Round"). It may actually still be a parish church.
> > > > >
> > > > > I will post the question on the Italian Web Site to get
some
> > > > answers.
> > > > >
> > > > > Valete
> > > > > Aulus Liburnius Hadrianus
> > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "titus.aquila"
> > <titus.aquila@>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Titus Flavius Aquila Flavio Galeri Aureliane salutem
> plurimam
> > > > > dicit.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thank you for your open minded response and with all
> respect,
> > > > > > sometimes it needs a small donkey to get working and a
> small
> > > > > donkey
> > > > > > when starting to work can achieve a lot.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have opened the discussion as I would like to see Nova
> Roma
> > > > grow
> > > > > > and get better known in the public .
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes, we are meeting locally and that's great and a lot
of
> > > effort
> > > > > is
> > > > > > put into these local meetings, but does it really help
us
> > grow
> > > > or
> > > > > > get better known in the world ?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For the Pantheon petition, well we never have tried ,
have
> > > we ?
> > > > We
> > > > > > do have Italian Citizens as our Nova Roma Citizens, so
why
> > not
> > > > > give
> > > > > > it a try.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Even stumbling blocks can be turned into rolling stones
in
> > our
> > > > > favor
> > > > > > if we push hard enough.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Diis bene iuvantibus sumus
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Valete
> > > > > > Titus Flavius Aquila
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodie est ante diem IV Kalendas Iunius; haec dies comitialis est.

"But there is another one, older and fabulous, in which we are told
that Rome was an Arcadian colony and founded by Evander: When
Heracles was driving the cattle of Geryon he was entertained by
Evander; and since Evander had learned from his mother Nicostrate (she
was skilled in the art of divination, the story goes) that Heracles
was destined to become a god after he had finished his labours, he not
only told this to Heracles but also consecrated to him a precinct and
offered a sacrifice to him after the Greek ritual, which is still to
this day kept up in honour of Heracles. And Coelius himself, the Roman
historian, puts this down as proof that Rome was founded by Greeks —
the fact that at Rome the hereditary sacrifice to Heracles is after
the Greek ritual. And the Romans honour also the mother of Evander,
regarding her as one of the nymphs, although her name has been changed
to Carmentis." - Strabo, Geography V.3

"The following is the formula for purifying land: Bidding the
suovetaurilia to be led around, use the words: "That with the good
help of the gods success may crown our work, I bid thee, Manius, to
take care to purify my farm, my land, my ground with this
suovetaurilia, in whatever part thou thinkest best for them to be
driven or carried around." Make a prayer with wine to Janus and
Jupiter, and say: "Father Mars, I pray and beseech thee that thou be
gracious and merciful to me, my house, and my household; to which
intent I have bidden this suovetaurilia to be led around my land, my
ground, my farm; that thou keep away, ward off, and remove sickness,
seen and unseen, barrenness and destruction, ruin and unseasonable
influence; and that thou permit my harvests, my grain, my vineyards,
and my plantations to flourish and to come to good issue, preserve in
health my shepherds and my flocks, and give good health and strength
to me, my house, and my household. To this intent, to the intent of
purifying my farm, my land, my ground, and of making an expiation, as
I have said, deign to accept the offering of these suckling victims;
Father Mars, to the same intent deign to accept the offering of these
suckling offering." Also heap the cakes with the knife and see that
the oblation cake be hard by, then present the victims. When you offer
up the pig, the lamb, and the calf, use this formula: "To this intent
deign to accept the offering of these victims." If favourable omens
are not obtained in response to all, speak thus: "Father Mars, if
aught hath not pleased thee in the offering of those sucklings, I make
atonement with these victims." If there is doubt about one or two, use
these words: "Father Mars, inasmuch as thou wast not pleased by the
offering of that pig, I make atonement with this pig." - Cato, de Re
Rustica 141

"I shall not hear your trentals,
Nor eat your arval bread,
Nor with smug breath tell lies of death
To the unanswering dead.

With snuffle and sniff and handkerchief,
The folk who loved you not
Will bury you, and go wondering
Back home. And you will rot.

But laughing and half-way up to heaven,
With wind and hill and star,
I yet shall keep, before I sleep,
Your Ambarvalia." - Rupert Brooke, "Lines Written in the Belief That
the Ancient Roman Festival of the Dead Was Called Ambarvalia" (AD
1916) lines 62-72



Today is the celebration of the Ambarvalia, an annual festival of the
Romans occurring in May, the object of which was to secure the
growing crops against harm of all kinds. The priests were the Arval
Brothers, who conducted the victimsox, sheep and pig (suovetaurilia)
in procession with prayer to Ceres round the boundaries of the ager
Romanus. As the extent of Roman land increased, this could no longer
be done, and in the Acta of the Fratres, which date from Augustus, we
do not find this procession mentioned; but there is a good description
of this or a similar rite in Virgil, and in Cato's work de Re Rustica
we have full details and the text of the prayers used by the Latin
farmer in thus "lustrating" his own land. The Ambarvaliae, both
private and public, were so called from the victim (hostia ambarvalis)
that was slain on the occasion being led three times round the
cornfields, before the sickle was put to the corn. This victim was
accompanied by a crowd of merry-makers (chorus et socii), the reapers
and farm-servants dancing and singing, as they marched along, the
praises of Ceres, and praying for her favour and presence, while they
offered her the libations of milk, honey, and wine.

The Christian festival which seems to have taken the place of these
ceremonies is the Rogation Sunday of the Roman Catholic and High
Anglican churches. The perambulation or beating of bounds is probably
a survival of the same type of rite.

Valete bene!

Cato



SOURCES

Strabo, Cato, Rupert Brooke, Smith's Dictionary, Wikipedia

M. Curiatius Complutensis Tribunus Plebis omnes civibus Novae Romae SPD

SENATE VOTING RESULTS

The Senate was called to discuss the following proposed Agenda by the Consul Arminius Faustus:

AGENDA


PREAMBLE

Recently, a contradiction has arisen about the real name a governor should have.

The "Senatus Consultum (XIX) : Standardization of Titles for Provincial Magistrates Adopted August 7, 2751)" (therefore called SC XIX) was appointed by Consul Faustus as being in contradiction with NR Constituion, by allowing the governors to be called as "Praetor" while NR Constituion and Roman History clearly states a Praetor is to be elected by the Comitia Centuriata. The Consul observed that in case of Contradiction, the Constituion should take precedence, so SC XIX was void. The Consul also warned SC XIX could cause lots of problems on our legal system, since NR has not a Poemerium to bound the �macronational� magistrates and the �provincial� magistrates. Consul Faustus observes SC XIX was �dead letter� until now and it is in contradiction with later leges, Senatusconsulta and edicta.

I see no better way than relying to the wiseness of the Senatores, since they approved the SC XIX for the very first time, and, in certain sense, giving power to it. As a Republican solution, the Senate is invited to solve the question voting on the proposal below to prepare us any further changes on our legal system. The Senatores
are invited to confirm SC XIX or to revoke it. The Senatores are invited to discuss deeply the question and ponder it with all their love for Nova Roma.

Past Consules had asked the Comitia and Senate to revoke approved laws and Senatusconsulta which interpretation could generate contradiction with the Constitution. So, it is a republican and democratic solution extensively being done by Nova Roma.

PROPOSAL

I. Should the SC XIX ("Senatus Consultum (XIX) : Standardization of Titles for Provincial Magistrates Adopted August 7, 2751)") be revoked due to its contradition with the NR Constituion, as stated by Consul L. Arminius Faustus?

Vote UTI ROGAS to revoke the SC XIX. Therefore, governors are to be called propraetores, and they will be called proconsules if the governor already was or is consul of Nova Roma.

Vote ANTIQVO to deny this proposal of revogation and keep SC XIX.

If Antiqvo wins, Consul Faustus will withdraw his objections listed above in obedience to the Senate. Until this Senate section is ended, Consul Faustus assumes the compromise to not use its constitutional prerrogative of Consular Intercessio against the uses of SC XIX in contradiction with the Constitution, according his interpretation.

***

Due to the nature of May, the Contio starts 5 May (to observe the notification period) and goes until 8 May. Days 9, 11, 13 and 15 are nefasti. So, although 10, 12 and 14 are comitialis, I prefer to start the voting on the continous Comitialis, ie, the voting starts 17 May and ends 20 May. A day will start at 0:00 Rome Time and will end at
23:59.

Contio: 5 (II. Ant. Id.) - 8 May (VII. Ant. Id.)
Voting: 17 (XIV. Ant. Kal. Iun.) - 20 May (XI. Ant. Kal. Iun.)

(Source: http://www.novaroma.org/calendar/maius.html)

The auspices were favourable, so I call the Senate to discuss and vote the matter above.

--
Valete bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus

**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************

My colleague Tribunus Galerius Aurelianus solicits that the text of the SC XIX is including in this report:

Senatus Consultum XIX

Standardization of Titles for Provincial Magistrates

Adopted August 7, 2751

(Proposed by Flavius Vedius Germanicus 8/4/98. No voting deadline.
Approved without dissenting votes 8/7/98.)

In keeping with the authority granted to the Senate by Article III, Paragraph 3, of the Constitution, I would like to propose that the Senate change the titles of the governors of our provinciae according to the following guidelines. Please note that this is a change only to their title, and has no impact on their duties, powers, and
functions.

Currently-serving Consuls governing provinciae shall be titled Consul.
Former Consuls who are continuing to govern a province after their term as Consul ends shall be titled Proconsul.
Magistrates appointed by the Senate to govern a particular province for the first time shall be titled Praetor.
Praetors who continue to govern a province after their first term of office ends shall be titled Propraetor.
Magistrates appointed by governors to assist in the administration of their province shall be titled Legate.

As far as I have been able to determine, these titles are consistent with the usage in the mid-late Republic, and therefore, in my opinion, are quite appropriate for our purpose. I ask that the Senate approve this system as the regular nomenclature of Nova Roma.

Retrieved from "http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Senatus_Consultum_On:_Standardization_of_Titles_for_Provincial_Magistrates"

**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************


Here is the list of the voting Senators:

TGP>Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
GEM> Gn. Equitius Marinus
PMS> Pompeia Minucia Strabo
GFBM> Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus
TOPA> Titus Octavius Pius Ahenobarbus
CFBQ> Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus
CEC> C. Equitius Cato
MMPH> M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus
LAF> L. Arminius Faustus
LECA> L. Equitius Cincinnatus Augur
CFD> Caius Flavius Diocletianus
QFM> Q. Fabius Maximus
ATMC> Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato
ATS> A. Tullia Scholastica
MBA> Marcus Bianchius Antonius
GSA> Gn Salvius Astur
SAS> Sextus Apollonius Scipio
JSM> Julilla Sempronia Magna
MMA> M Minucius Audens
MIP> M Iulius Perusianus
CMM> C. Marius Merullus
AMA> A Moravia Aurelia

The session was closed May 20th at the 11,59 PM Central European Summer Time (5:59pm EST).

The votes of A Moravia Aurelia and L Equitius Cincinnatus Augur arrived after the deadline of the votation.

*************************************************************************************************************************************************************



L. Arminius Faustus votes

Proposal I - To revoke SC XIX

VTI ROGAS - I have some reasons to vote for revokation of SC XIX.
First, it enters in contradiction with the constitution. Second, it creates a different magistrature with the same name of others (Praetor against a "praetor"-governor. Third, this kind of modification should be done by a Constitution change to avoid contradiction. Fourth, on Ancient the praetores were governores, but they were elected by the
Comitia, which is not the case of NR. Fifth, on Ancient Rome, governores made by the senate like NR were called propraetores like NR already do. Sixth, I see nothing in benefit to NR, this SC was dead letter since the begging it wasn�t followed. Seventh it is in contradiction with own latter and newer Senatusconsulta, that it is an
indication the current Senate should be listened. Eighth there is no constitutional basis to differ the work of the Praetor to the governor praetor. Nineth there is no clear definition of Imperium and Provincia on NR legal system, so it can raise to many conflicts with the Praetores and Consules Imperium. Tenth, Last but not least, fishing
dead letter laws brings no benefit to NR, it is just searching for legal niceties. So, by all these reasons, I vote to revoke.

I recall after this situation of SC XIX is solved, we can discuss further developments.

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus votes

I vote Antiqvo on its repeal.
The Senatus Consultum on provincial titles should stand because your reasoning is wrong. The Senate of Nova Roma has the constitutional power to adopt any title we believe is appropriate.

Discessione Gnaeus Equitius Marinus


Proposal I - To revoke SC XIX

VTI ROGAS

Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus

Proposal I - To revoke SC XIX

UTI ROGAS
--

Vote of Titus Octavius Pius Ahenobarbus

Salvete, senatores.

Here is my vote in the ongoing senate session.

> Proposal I - To revoke SC XIX

UTI ROGAS - I fully appreciate the dangers in using the same title for different offices and support the measure to rectify this situation.

Vote of Senator Marcus Minucius Audens

Proposal I -- To revoke SC XIX;

YES � MMA

Vote of Sextus Apollonius Scipio

Salvete Omnes,

Proposal I - To revoke SC XIX

UTI ROGAS

Vote of Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus

Proposal I - To revoke SC XIX

UTI ROGAS

Discessiones Cn. Salvii Asturis

CN�SALVIVS�ASTVR�PATRIBVS�CONSCRIPTISQVE�S�P�D

S�V�B�E�E�V

> Proposal I - To revoke SC XIX

I vote in favour.
The idea to call provincial governors "praetores" is born from a deep lack of understanding of Roman historical practice. Since it is not based on historical practice, and it has no advantage at all - other than to be confusing - there is no reason why it should have been approved in the first place. I voted against it, and I vote to remove
it today.

Discessiones M. Moravius Piscinus

Proposal I - To revoke SC XIX

MMPH: UTI ROGAS


Suffragia Pompeia Minuciae Strabone

Item I:

To rescind Senatus Consultum XIX:

UTI ROGAS

Respectfully, I didn't vote for this Consultum in the first place.

Suffragia Caius Flavius Diocletianus


PROPOSAL

I. Should the SC XIX ("Senatus Consultum (XIX) : Standardization of Titles for Provincial Magistrates Adopted August 7, 2751)") be revoked due to its contradition with the NR Constituion, as stated by Consul L. Arminius Faustus?

CFD: Uti Rogas

Discessiones Julillae Semproniae Magnae

I. Should the SC XIX ("Senatus Consultum (XIX) : Standardization of Titles for Provincial Magistrates Adopted August 7, 2751)") be revoked
due to its contradition with the NR Constituion, as stated by Consul L. Arminius Faustus?

JSM: Uti Rogas


Discessiones M Iul Perusianus

> Proposal I - To revoke SC XIX

VTI ROGAS

Vote of Sextus Apollonius Scipio

Salvete Omnes,

Proposal I - To revoke SC XIX

UTI ROGAS

Vote of C. Equitius Cato

Cato omnes SPD

Salvete omnes.

Arminus Faustus wrote (in part):

"First, it enters in contradiction with the constitution."

CATO: I have not been shown this contradiction. It does not exist.

"Second, it creates a different magistrature with the same name of others (Praetor against a "praetor"-governor."

CATO: and why is having two magistracies with a similiar title so abhorrent? I think it speaks ill of our abilities to discern between a praetor of the Republic (such as, currently, myself) and the governor of a province.

"Sixth, I see nothing in benfit to NR, this SC was dead letter since the begging [sic] it wasn�t followed."

CATO: if a law is not obeyed that does not make it any less a law; the fault lies with those given the obligation to obey and/or enforce the law, not with the law itself.

"Seventh it is in contradiction with own latter and newer Senatusconsulta, that it is an indication the current Senate should be listened."

CATO: forgive me, but I have no idea what this means.

"Eighth there is no constitutional basis to differ the work of the Praetor to the governor praetor."

CATO: I would point my colleagues to the lex Constitutiva IV.3.a-e and V.C.1-5; These quite clearly define the "work" of the praetors of the Republic as opposed to the governors of provinces. And finally, again the lex Constitutiva says specifically: "The Senate may, by Senatus Consultum, create provinciae for administrative purposes and appoint provincial governors therefor, who shall bear such titles as the Senate may deem appropriate." (V.C)

Therefore, in the matter of Proposal I: to revoke SC XIX, I vote: ANTIQUO

Marcus Bianchius Antonius - Votes

Revoke SC XIX

MBA: Uti Rogas

A. Tullia Scholastica

> Proposal I - To revoke SC XIX

Vti rogas. I agree with the honorable Senator Cn. Salvius Astur�s words copied below, and those of several others.


CSA: The idea to call provincial governors "praetores" is born from a deep lack of understanding of Roman historical practice. Since it is not based on historical practice, and it has no advantage at all - other than to be confusing - there is no reason why it should have been approved in the first place. I voted against it, and I vote to remove it today.

Vote of Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato


With due respect to our Gods and Goddesses, and this honorable Assembly, I vote as follows:

Item I:

To rescind Senatus Consultum XIX:

ATMC - UTI ROGAS

Q. Fabius Maximus

Proposal I - To revoke SC XIX
QFM: Antiquo

First, it enters in contradiction with the constitution.

How does it do that? The constitution allows the Senate to create the position and choose who to administer it.

Second, it creates a different magistrature with the same name of others (Praetor against a "praetor"-governor.)

But Consul it is at least accurate. The Steersman for the Imperial provinces, appointed by the Emperor, is not the Republic. It is not used in any type of Roman republic. We profess to be the recreation of the Republic. I realize a lot of people here want to be emperor, but that's not going to happen. Octavius' restoration of the "republic" was a sham. It was never a Republic. He was first of the citizens, who controlled all. No one in Nova Roma is ever going to have that amount of control.

Third, this kind of modification should be done by a Constitution change to avoid contradiction.

But Consul we are following the Constitution. The Senate has this power. And this power of naming Province leaders guaranteed in the Constitution.

Fourth, on Ancient the praetores were governores, but they were elected by the Comitia, which is not the case of NR.

Yes you are correct about that. But they were never governors. That came under Augustus. These praetors are provincial only. The latin term praetor is derived from the Latin "prat-ire" I.E, 'to lead', 'to precede'. Livius says it was originally the name offered by the highest Roman magistrate, who later came to be called consul. You have a magistrate who leads a province.
Fifth, on Ancient Rome, governores made by the senate like NR were called propraetores like NR already do.

I have no idea where you get your knowledge but the Emperor appointed the Governors of his provinces. The Senate could only appoint Praetors to their provinces which I believe by the Principate were six.
VI and VII I do not understand your logic so I have no comment.

Eighth there is no constitutional basis to differ the work of the Praetor to the governor praetor.

But why is one needed? Do you really believe a provincial praetor is really going to think he has the same abilities of the City Praetors?

Ninth there is no clear definition of Imperium and Provincia on NR legal system, so it can raise to many conflicts with the Praetores and Consules Imperium.

That is utter nonsense. For one thing, the Constitution defines the pecking order, and Provincial magistrates are way down on the list.

Tenth, Last but not least, fishing dead letter laws brings no benefit to NR, it is just searching for legal niceties. So, by all these reasons, I vote to revoke.

I cordially disagree. So therefore I vote to retain.


Suffragium C Marii Merulli

Nego I vote not to rescind the old senatus consultum. The new version proposed does not improve significantly on the in-force title system as far as I can see and has "legatus pro praetor". Legatus pro praetore is a very awkward title and does not distinguish clearly the governing magistrate from the assisting ones (legati).

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

SUFFRAGIA ARRIVED AFTER THE DEADLINE

Suffragia L Equitius Cincinnatus Augur

L Equitius Cincinnatus Augur Curiae salutem dicit

Salvete

'Iuppiter Optime Maxime, qui genus colis alisque hominem, per quem vivimus vitalem aevum, quem penes spes vitae sunt hominum omnium, diem hunc sospitem quaeso meis rebus agundis'

I. Should the SC XIX ("Senatus Consultum (XIX) : Standardization of Titles for Provincial Magistrates Adopted August 7, 2751)") be revoked due to its contradition with the NR Constituion, as stated by Consul L. Arminius Faustus?


Cincinnatus Augur: ANTIQUO, Praetor Cato, Pontifex Q Fabius and Senator Merullus have demonstrated why there is no need for this, and I agree.
As a side item, I do wish to have explained why the issue of the appointment of M Martianus is being neglected. What a fiasco!

Mars nos protegas!

vote of A. Moravia Aurelia

� I. Should the SC XIX ("Senatus Consultum (XIX) : Standardization of Titles for Provincial Magistrates Adopted August 7, 2751)") be revoked due to its contradition with the NR Constituion, as stated by Consul L. Arminius Faustus?

AMA: Uti Rogas


*********************************************************************************************************************************************************

RESULTS

ABSTINEO: 0
ANTIQVO: 4
VTI ROGAS: 16


THE PROPOSAL IS PASSED AND THE SC XIX IS REVOKED


Valete

M�CVRIATIVS�COMPLVTENSIS
TRIBVNVS PLEBIS
NOVA ROMA
-----------------------------------------
ex paucis multa, ex minimis maxima

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes.

On this day the last vestiges of the unbroken Roman Empire, in
existence for some two thousand years, fell under the onslaught of the
Ottoman Turks. The Great City, Constantinople, was captured by Sultan
Mehmet II.

The assault began after midnight, into the 29th of May 1453. Wave
after wave the attackers charged. Battle cries, accompanied by the
sound of drums, trumpets and fifes, filled the air. The bells of the
city churches began ringing frantically. Orders, screams and the sound
of trumpets shattered the night. First came the irregulars, an
unreliable, multinational crowd of Christians and Moslems, who were
attracted by the opportunity of enriching themselves by looting the
great city, the last capital of the Roman Empire. They attacked
throughout the line of fortifications and they were massacred by the
tough professionals, who were fighting under the orders of
Giustiniani. The battle lasted two hours and the irregulars withdrew
in disorder, leaving behind an unknown number of dead and wounded.

Next came the Anatolian troops of Ishak Pasha. They tried to storm the
stockades. They fought tenaciously, even desperately trying to break
through the compact ranks of the defenders. The narrow area in which
fighting went on helped the defenders. The could hack left and right
with their maces and swords and shoot missiles onto the mass of
attackers without having to aim. A group of attackers crashed through
a gap and for a moment it seemed that they could enter the city. The
were assaulted by the Emperor and his men and were soon slain. This
second attack also failed.

But now came the Janissaries, disciplined, professional, ruthless
warriors, superbly trained, ready to die for their master, the Sultan.
They assaulted the now exhausted defenders, they were pushing their
way over bodies of dead and dying Moslem and Christian soldiers. With
tremendous effort the Greek and Italian fighters were hitting back and
continued repulsing the enemy. Then a group of enemy soldiers
unexpectedly entered the city from a small sally-port called
Kerkoporta, on the wall of Blachernae, where this wall joined the
triple wall. Fighting broke near the small gate with the defenders
trying to eliminate the intruders.

It was almost day now, the first light, before sunrise, when a shot
fired from a calverin hit Giustiniani. The shot pierced his
breastplate and he fell on the ground. Shaken by his wound and
physically exhausted, his fighting spirit collapsed. Despite the pleas
of the Emperor, who was fighting nearby, not to leave his post, the
Genoese commander ordered his men to take him out of the battle-field.
A Gate in the inner wall was opened for the group of Genoese soldiers,
who were carrying their wounded commander, to come into the city. The
soldiers who were fighting near the area saw the Gate open, their
comrades carrying their leader crossing into the city, and they though
that the defence line had been broken. They all rushed through the
Gate leaving the Emperor and the Greek fighters alone between the two
walls. This sudden movement did not escape the attention of the
Ottoman commanders. Frantic orders were issued to the troops to
concentrate their attack on the weakened position. Thousands rushed to
the area. The stockade was broken. The Greeks were now squeezed by
crowds of Janissaries between the stockade and the wall. More
Janissaries came in and many reached the inner wall.

Meanwhile more were pouring in through the Kerkoporta, where the
defenders had not been able to eliminate the first intruders. Soon the
first enemy flags were seen on the walls. The Emperor and his
commanders were trying frantically to rally their troops and push back
the enemy. It was too late. Waves of Janissaries, followed by other
regular units of the Ottoman army, were crashing throught the open
Gates, mixed with fleeing and slaughtered Christian soldiers. Then the
Emperor, realizing that everything was lost, removed his Imperial
insignia, and followed by his cousin Theophilus Palaeologus, the
Castilian Don Francisco of Toledo, and John Dalmatus, all four holding
their swords, charged into the sea of the enemy soldiers, hitting left
and right in a final act of defiance. They were never seen again.

Now thousands of Ottoman soldiers were pouring into the city. One
after the other the city Gates were opened. The Ottoman flags began
appearing on the walls, on the towers, on the Palace at Blachernae.
Civilians in panic were rushing to the churches. Others locked
themselves in their homes, some continued fighting in the streets,
crowds of Greeks and foreigners were rushing towards the port area.
The allied ships were still there and began collecting refugees. The
Cretan soldiers and sailors, manning three towers near the entrance of
the Golden Horn, were still fighting and had no intention of
surrendering. At the end, the Ottoman commanders had to agree to a
truce and let them sail away, carrying their arms.

The excesses which followed, druing the early hours of the Ottoman
victory, are described in detail by eyewitnesses. They were, and
unfortunately still are, a common practice, almost a ritual, among all
armies capturing enemy strongholds and territory after a prolonged and
violent struggle. Thus, bands of soldiers began now looting. Doors
were broken, private homes were looted, their tenants were massacred.
Shops in the city markets were looted. Monasteries and Convents were
broken in. Their tenants were killed, nuns were raped, many, to avoid
dishonor, killed themselves. Killing, raping, looting, burning,
enslaving, went on and on according to tradition. The troops had to
satisfy themselves. The great doors of Saint Sophia were forced open,
and crowds of angry soldiers came in and fell upon the unfortunate
worshippers. Pillaging and killing in the holy place went on for
hours. Similar was the fate of worshippers in most churches in the
city. Everything that could be taken from the splendid buildings was
taken by the new masters of the Imperial capital. Icons were
destroyed, precious manuscripts were lost forever. Thousands of
civilians were enslaved, soldiers fought over young boys and young
women. Death and enslavement did not distinguish among social classes.
Nobles and peasants were treated with equal ruthlessness.

In some distant neighborhoods, especially near the sea walls in the
sea of Marmora, such as Psamathia, but also in the Golden Horn at
Phanar and Petrion, where local fishermen opened the Gates, while the
enemy soldiers were pouring into the city from the land Gates, local
magistrates negotiated successfully their surrender to Hamza Bey's
officers. Their act saved the lives of their fellow citizens.
Furthermore their churches were not desecrated. Meanwhile, the crews
of the Ottoman fleet abandoned their ships to rush into the city. They
were worried that the land army was going to take everything. The
collapse of discipline gave the Christian ships time to sail out of
the Golden Horn. Venetian, Genoese and Greek ships, loaded with
refugees, some of them having reached the ships swimming from the
city, sailed away to freedom. On one of the Genoese vessels was
Giustiniani. He was taken from the boat at Chios where he died, from
his wound, a few days later.

The Sultan, with his top commanders and his guard of Janissaries,
entered the city in the afternoon of the first day of occupation.
Constantinople was finally his and he intended to make it the capital
of his mighty Empire. He toured the ruined city. He visited Saint
Sophia which he ordered to be turned into a mosque. He also ordered an
end to the killing. What he saw was desolation, destruction, death in
the streets, ruins, desecrated churches. It was too much. It is said
that, as he rode through the streets of the former capital of the
Christian Roman Empire, the city of Constantine, moved to tears he
murmured: "What a city we have given over to plunder and destruction".


Valete,

Cato



SOURCES

Dionysios Hatzopoulos, "The Fall of Constantinople, 1453", Babinger,
F., "Mahomet II le Conquerant et son Temps, 1432-1481", translated
from the German by H.E. del Medico, Paris, 1954, Pears, E., "The
Destruction of the Greek Empire and the story of the Capture of
Constantinople" by the Turks", London, 1903, Schlumberger, G., Le
siege, la prise et la sac de Constantionple en 1453", Paris, 1926,
Walter, G., La ruine de Byzance", Paris, 1958.

C. Aemilius Crassus Praetori C. Equiti Catoni,

Your daily accounts of Roma Antiqua are always very
instructiveand most of them a delight to read.

Although Constantinople was less then a phantom of
phantom of the Rome I want to see reborn I canÂ’t read
the history of his fall without being filled with
sadness. Thank you for remembering us of this day.

Vale optime bene,

a. d. IV Kal. Iun.




____________________________________________________________________________________Ready for the edge of your seat?
Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.
http://tv.yahoo.com/

Salvete.
In my work to disclose aspects of the old architecture of the N.O. of
Hispania I present to you the amphitheatre of Lucus Augusti at
NRHispania´s blog:

http://www.nrhispania.org/Blog/index.html


Valete.
G. Minicius Agrippa

Salve,

I do not believe the phrase "stinking rich" was started because of that reason. Where did you get this idea from?

Vale,

Annia Minucia Marcella
http://minucia.ciarin.com

----- Original Message -----
From: Aulus Liburnius Hadrianus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 11:48 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Interesting Question, food for thought


A.Liburnius M. Maiori Quiritibusque S.P.D.

Since Medieval times important citizens were granted the honor of
being buried inside churches rather than in cemeteries.
Occasionally the smell of decomposing bodies would be noticed by the
populace, hence the english saying "stinking rich".

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Salve Annia Minucia, et salve Hadriane,

Annia Minucia Marcella <annia@...> writes:

[addressing A Liburnius Hadrianus' claim that "stinking rich" refers to
wealthy people being buried inside cathedrals]

> I do not believe the phrase "stinking rich" was started because of that
> reason. Where did you get this idea from?

It's a standard tour guide story, though you're correct to doubt its veracity.
The term "stinking rich" doesn't appear in print in any historical record
before 1945. For more, see http://www.word-detective.com/0706B.html

Hadriane, I fear you were taken in by a popular but untrue tale. You should
develop a healthy skepticism.

Vale,

CN•EQVIT•MARINVS

Fl. Galerius Marca Hortensia sal.



I reply when you post because some of your information can be misleading to individuals who are new to Nova Roma but also because I enjoy our discourses.  Actually, since you have stated that you read French, shouldn't you actual footnote and reference Scheid's work in the original French and then offer a translation?



As you are no doubt aware, there is no one single text that offers a clear viewpoint on the Sacra et Religio to newcomers to our organization.  Scheid is readily available and has been recommended by the College of Pontiffs.  It is also relatively inexpensive via Amazon.com.  Would that Scullard's work be reprinted so it could be as inexpensive as Fowler--both works essential to an understanding of the Roman holidays and celebrations under the Republic. 

Personally, I like the two volume set "Religions of Rome" by Beard, North, and Price as the primary work.  My reason for this is because of the informtion provided in Chapter 1-3 (pgs. 1-140 in Volume 1) namely Early Rome, Imperial triumph & religious change, and Religion in the late Republic; along with Chapter 7, Section 1 'Roman religion outside Rome' & Section 2 'Controls & integration' (pgs. 320-348).  These sections have very good material on organization of the sacred colleges without any pretense that any scholar really knows the origins of most of the Sacra et Religio prior to the 2nd century B.C.  The sections in Chapter 7 are useful to get a feel for what Roman rites were actually celebrated and what portions of the Sacra et Relgio could be found in the provinces.

As you know from the provincial website for Austrorientalis, Marca Hortensia, we have been holding and celebrating certain rites here in the Middle Tennessee area since I became governor; some on public land, some private, and occasionally at pagan festivals.  I believe that each province should celebrate those rites that are traditionally held in the provinces from sources like the military calendar from Dura Europos (Religions of Rome, vol. 2; Section 3.5, pgs. 71-74) with the exception of those dedicated to the Imperial Cults and excluding that sacrificing a bull, ox, sheep, pig, or goat (which is economically impossible for small groups of citizens).

However, you and I differ on whether to celebrate all of the festivals that would normally be held in Rome or Italy.  As a provincial governor, I would rather hold a few public rites and/or festivals that can be attended by as many citizens as possible than trying to adhere to the calendar as it existed in Rome or Italy more especially the festival tied to the establishment of temples.  This is very important when you consider that land outside of Italy could traditionally not be considered sacred but merely religious.  Our province only has one templum that has been purposely consecrated, purified, and dedicated according to the traditional methods but a historical Roman would still consider it only religious and not sacred (sacer) because it is outside of Italia.

In regard to referencing specific examples of women dedicating prayers to Hercules and Silvanus or other Gods, I will endeavor to supply you with some epigraphic information of dedications made by women for templum and altars in the very near future.

Vadite in pace Cereris. 


-----Original Message-----
From: Maior <rory12001@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, 28 May 2007 11:22 pm
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Books on Roman Religion - Opinions Please







M. Hortensia Fl. Galerio spd;
so far the majority opinion of current scholarly
research is that women were forbidden to worship Hercules ONLY at
the Ara Maxima :
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Reading_list_for_the_cultus_deorum
Do look at Women's Religious Activity & "La Vie Religieuse des
Matrones.." which I've put into the Wiki & all the footnotes
naturally.

If you say I am, or rather the reseach is inaccurate, what are your
references for both Hercules and Silvanus. If you make a statement
like that you must please give some facts.

If you look at Scheid, p. 155 he lists Roman dieties & patronage.
There is "Bona Dea" & matronae, "Diana" women, re-inforces outmoded
ways of understanding the Religio.

I've found such outright dated & simply wrong research that was
presented by some pontifices, that I will only discuss the
historical Religio with someone if they support their opinion with
titles of books & footnotes. So we can have a sensible discussion

As a side note. Why do you always reply when I post about the
Religio?
vale
M. Hortensia Maior

>
> The above statement is partially inaccurate. Women were forbidden

to be

> present during the opening ceremonies of certain rites to Hercules

and Silvanus

> not forbidden to pray to Hercules and Silvanus. I know nothing

in my English

> translation of Scheid that states women did not pray to Hercules.
>
> Hercules was considered a patron god among businessmen (and women)

as well

> as the patron God of Herculaneum. It is doubtful that women could

not offer

> sacrifice to Hercules or participate in portions of His rites

other than the

> opening rites. The cult of Silvanus is more of a question but

Silvanus ranks

> as one of the four principal gods that are found on surviving

inscriptions.

> Silvanus had control of all unimproved or wild land. Invocations

to Silvanus

> were an essential part of the dedication, purification, and

consecration of

> many a shrine (templum).
>
> Valete.
>
> bene vale
> M. Hortensia Maior
> producer 'Vox Romana'podcast
> _http://www.insulaumhttp://www.insulht_
> (http://www.insulaumbra.com/voxromana/)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ************************************** See what's free at

http://www.aol.com

>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete gentlemen,

An adjustment to the report is needed here. YoU left off Quintus
Suetonius Paulinus who voted VTI ROGAS in this session.

Regards,

Quintus Suetonius Paulinus

> Here is the list of the voting Senators:
>
> TGP>Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> GEM> Gn. Equitius Marinus
> PMS> Pompeia Minucia Strabo
> GFBM> Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus
> TOPA> Titus Octavius Pius Ahenobarbus
> CFBQ> Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus
> CEC> C. Equitius Cato
> MMPH> M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus
> LAF> L. Arminius Faustus
> LECA> L. Equitius Cincinnatus Augur
> CFD> Caius Flavius Diocletianus
> QFM> Q. Fabius Maximus
> ATMC> Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato
> ATS> A. Tullia Scholastica
> MBA> Marcus Bianchius Antonius
> GSA> Gn Salvius Astur
> SAS> Sextus Apollonius Scipio
> JSM> Julilla Sempronia Magna
> MMA> M Minucius Audens
> MIP> M Iulius Perusianus
> CMM> C. Marius Merullus
> AMA> A Moravia Aurelia
>
> The session was closed May 20th at the 11,59 PM Central European

Summer Time (5:59pm EST).

>
> The votes of A Moravia Aurelia and L Equitius Cincinnatus Augur

arrived after the deadline of the votation.

>
>

*********************************************************************
*********************************************************************
*******************

>
>
>
> L. Arminius Faustus votes
>
> Proposal I - To revoke SC XIX
>
> VTI ROGAS - I have some reasons to vote for revokation of SC XIX.
> First, it enters in contradiction with the constitution. Second,

it creates a different magistrature with the same name of others
(Praetor against a "praetor"-governor. Third, this kind of
modification should be done by a Constitution change to avoid
contradiction. Fourth, on Ancient the praetores were governores, but
they were elected by the

> Comitia, which is not the case of NR. Fifth, on Ancient Rome,

governores made by the senate like NR were called propraetores like
NR already do. Sixth, I see nothing in benefit to NR, this SC was
dead letter since the begging it wasn´t followed. Seventh it is in
contradiction with own latter and newer Senatusconsulta, that it is
an

> indication the current Senate should be listened. Eighth there is

no constitutional basis to differ the work of the Praetor to the
governor praetor. Nineth there is no clear definition of Imperium
and Provincia on NR legal system, so it can raise to many conflicts
with the Praetores and Consules Imperium. Tenth, Last but not least,
fishing

> dead letter laws brings no benefit to NR, it is just searching for

legal niceties. So, by all these reasons, I vote to revoke.

>
> I recall after this situation of SC XIX is solved, we can discuss

further developments.

>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus votes
>
> I vote Antiqvo on its repeal.
> The Senatus Consultum on provincial titles should stand because

your reasoning is wrong. The Senate of Nova Roma has the
constitutional power to adopt any title we believe is appropriate.

>
> Discessione Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
>
>
> Proposal I - To revoke SC XIX
>
> VTI ROGAS
>
> Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus
>
> Proposal I - To revoke SC XIX
>
> UTI ROGAS
> --
>
> Vote of Titus Octavius Pius Ahenobarbus
>
> Salvete, senatores.
>
> Here is my vote in the ongoing senate session.
>
> > Proposal I - To revoke SC XIX
>
> UTI ROGAS - I fully appreciate the dangers in using the same title

for different offices and support the measure to rectify this
situation.

>
> Vote of Senator Marcus Minucius Audens
>
> Proposal I -- To revoke SC XIX;
>
> YES – MMA
>
> Vote of Sextus Apollonius Scipio
>
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> Proposal I - To revoke SC XIX
>
> UTI ROGAS
>
> Vote of Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus
>
> Proposal I - To revoke SC XIX
>
> UTI ROGAS
>
> Discessiones Cn. Salvii Asturis
>
> CN·SALVIVS·ASTVR·PATRIBVS·CONSCRIPTISQVE·S·P·D
>
> S·V·B·E·E·V
>
> > Proposal I - To revoke SC XIX
>
> I vote in favour.
> The idea to call provincial governors "praetores" is born from a

deep lack of understanding of Roman historical practice. Since it is
not based on historical practice, and it has no advantage at all -
other than to be confusing - there is no reason why it should have
been approved in the first place. I voted against it, and I vote to
remove

> it today.
>
> Discessiones M. Moravius Piscinus
>
> Proposal I - To revoke SC XIX
>
> MMPH: UTI ROGAS
>
>
> Suffragia Pompeia Minuciae Strabone
>
> Item I:
>
> To rescind Senatus Consultum XIX:
>
> UTI ROGAS
>
> Respectfully, I didn't vote for this Consultum in the first place.
>
> Suffragia Caius Flavius Diocletianus
>
>
> PROPOSAL
>
> I. Should the SC XIX ("Senatus Consultum (XIX) : Standardization

of Titles for Provincial Magistrates Adopted August 7, 2751)") be
revoked due to its contradition with the NR Constituion, as stated
by Consul L. Arminius Faustus?

>
> CFD: Uti Rogas
>
> Discessiones Julillae Semproniae Magnae
>
> I. Should the SC XIX ("Senatus Consultum (XIX) : Standardization

of Titles for Provincial Magistrates Adopted August 7, 2751)") be
revoked

> due to its contradition with the NR Constituion, as stated by

Consul L. Arminius Faustus?

>
> JSM: Uti Rogas
>
>
> Discessiones M Iul Perusianus
>
> > Proposal I - To revoke SC XIX
>
> VTI ROGAS
>
> Vote of Sextus Apollonius Scipio
>
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> Proposal I - To revoke SC XIX
>
> UTI ROGAS
>
> Vote of C. Equitius Cato
>
> Cato omnes SPD
>
> Salvete omnes.
>
> Arminus Faustus wrote (in part):
>
> "First, it enters in contradiction with the constitution."
>
> CATO: I have not been shown this contradiction. It does not exist.
>
> "Second, it creates a different magistrature with the same name of

others (Praetor against a "praetor"-governor."

>
> CATO: and why is having two magistracies with a similiar title so

abhorrent? I think it speaks ill of our abilities to discern between
a praetor of the Republic (such as, currently, myself) and the
governor of a province.

>
> "Sixth, I see nothing in benfit to NR, this SC was dead letter

since the begging [sic] it wasn´t followed."

>
> CATO: if a law is not obeyed that does not make it any less a law;

the fault lies with those given the obligation to obey and/or
enforce the law, not with the law itself.

>
> "Seventh it is in contradiction with own latter and newer

Senatusconsulta, that it is an indication the current Senate should
be listened."

>
> CATO: forgive me, but I have no idea what this means.
>
> "Eighth there is no constitutional basis to differ the work of

the Praetor to the governor praetor."

>
> CATO: I would point my colleagues to the lex Constitutiva IV.3.a-e

and V.C.1-5; These quite clearly define the "work" of the praetors
of the Republic as opposed to the governors of provinces. And
finally, again the lex Constitutiva says specifically: "The Senate
may, by Senatus Consultum, create provinciae for administrative
purposes and appoint provincial governors therefor, who shall bear
such titles as the Senate may deem appropriate." (V.C)

>
> Therefore, in the matter of Proposal I: to revoke SC XIX, I vote:

ANTIQUO

>
> Marcus Bianchius Antonius - Votes
>
> Revoke SC XIX
>
> MBA: Uti Rogas
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica
>
> > Proposal I - To revoke SC XIX
>
>
> Vti rogas. I agree with the honorable Senator Cn. Salvius

Astur's words copied below, and those of several others.

>
>
> CSA: The idea to call provincial governors "praetores" is born

from a deep lack of understanding of Roman historical practice.
Since it is not based on historical practice, and it has no
advantage at all - other than to be confusing - there is no reason
why it should have been approved in the first place. I voted against
it, and I vote to remove it today.

>
> Vote of Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato
>
>
> With due respect to our Gods and Goddesses, and this honorable

Assembly, I vote as follows:

>
> Item I:
>
> To rescind Senatus Consultum XIX:
>
> ATMC - UTI ROGAS
>
> Q. Fabius Maximus
>
> Proposal I - To revoke SC XIX
> QFM: Antiquo
>
> First, it enters in contradiction with the constitution.
>
> How does it do that? The constitution allows the Senate to create

the position and choose who to administer it.

>
> Second, it creates a different magistrature with the same name of

others (Praetor against a "praetor"-governor.)

>
> But Consul it is at least accurate. The Steersman for the

Imperial provinces, appointed by the Emperor, is not the Republic.
It is not used in any type of Roman republic. We profess to be the
recreation of the Republic. I realize a lot of people here want to
be emperor, but that's not going to happen. Octavius' restoration
of the "republic" was a sham. It was never a Republic. He was
first of the citizens, who controlled all. No one in Nova Roma is
ever going to have that amount of control.

>
> Third, this kind of modification should be done by a Constitution

change to avoid contradiction.

>
> But Consul we are following the Constitution. The Senate has this

power. And this power of naming Province leaders guaranteed in the
Constitution.

>
> Fourth, on Ancient the praetores were governores, but they were

elected by the Comitia, which is not the case of NR.

>
> Yes you are correct about that. But they were never governors.

That came under Augustus. These praetors are provincial only. The
latin term praetor is derived from the Latin "prat-ire" I.E, 'to
lead', 'to precede'. Livius says it was originally the name offered
by the highest Roman magistrate, who later came to be called
consul. You have a magistrate who leads a province.

> Fifth, on Ancient Rome, governores made by the senate like NR were

called propraetores like NR already do.

>
> I have no idea where you get your knowledge but the Emperor

appointed the Governors of his provinces. The Senate could only
appoint Praetors to their provinces which I believe by the
Principate were six.

> VI and VII I do not understand your logic so I have no comment.
>
> Eighth there is no constitutional basis to differ the work of the

Praetor to the governor praetor.

>
> But why is one needed? Do you really believe a provincial praetor

is really going to think he has the same abilities of the City
Praetors?

>
> Ninth there is no clear definition of Imperium and Provincia on NR

legal system, so it can raise to many conflicts with the Praetores
and Consules Imperium.

>
> That is utter nonsense. For one thing, the Constitution defines

the pecking order, and Provincial magistrates are way down on the
list.

>
> Tenth, Last but not least, fishing dead letter laws brings no

benefit to NR, it is just searching for legal niceties. So, by all
these reasons, I vote to revoke.

>
> I cordially disagree. So therefore I vote to retain.
>
>
> Suffragium C Marii Merulli
>
> Nego I vote not to rescind the old senatus consultum. The new

version proposed does not improve significantly on the in-force
title system as far as I can see and has "legatus pro praetor".
Legatus pro praetore is a very awkward title and does not
distinguish clearly the governing magistrate from the assisting ones
(legati).

>
>

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

>
> SUFFRAGIA ARRIVED AFTER THE DEADLINE
>
> Suffragia L Equitius Cincinnatus Augur
>
> L Equitius Cincinnatus Augur Curiae salutem dicit
>
> Salvete
>
> 'Iuppiter Optime Maxime, qui genus colis alisque hominem, per quem

vivimus vitalem aevum, quem penes spes vitae sunt hominum omnium,
diem hunc sospitem quaeso meis rebus agundis'

>
> I. Should the SC XIX ("Senatus Consultum (XIX) : Standardization

of Titles for Provincial Magistrates Adopted August 7, 2751)") be
revoked due to its contradition with the NR Constituion, as stated
by Consul L. Arminius Faustus?

>
>
> Cincinnatus Augur: ANTIQUO, Praetor Cato, Pontifex Q Fabius and

Senator Merullus have demonstrated why there is no need for this,
and I agree.

> As a side item, I do wish to have explained why the issue of the

appointment of M Martianus is being neglected. What a fiasco!

>
> Mars nos protegas!
>
> vote of A. Moravia Aurelia
>
> Ø I. Should the SC XIX ("Senatus Consultum (XIX) :

Standardization of Titles for Provincial Magistrates Adopted August
7, 2751)") be revoked due to its contradition with the NR
Constituion, as stated by Consul L. Arminius Faustus?

>
> AMA: Uti Rogas
>
>
>

*********************************************************************
*********************************************************************
***************

>
> RESULTS
>
> ABSTINEO: 0
> ANTIQVO: 4
> VTI ROGAS: 16
>
>
> THE PROPOSAL IS PASSED AND THE SC XIX IS REVOKED
>
>
> Valete
>
> M·CVRIATIVS·COMPLVTENSIS
> TRIBVNVS PLEBIS
> NOVA ROMA
> -----------------------------------------
> ex paucis multa, ex minimis maxima
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

---Salve Minuci Agrippe Salvete Omnes:

Minici Agrippe, what a wonderful video! I like the way the viewer
is 'walked' through the site, very nice work indeed. I liked the
introduction and finish as well....ok, I liked 'all' of it! :>)

Very professional and educational.

Thank you very much for sharing your project with us.

Valete
Pompeia


In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "G. MINICIUS AGRIPPA" <csm@...> wrote:

>
> Salvete.
> In my work to disclose aspects of the old architecture of the N.O. of
> Hispania I present to you the amphitheatre of Lucus Augusti at
> NRHispania´s blog:
>
> http://www.nrhispania.org/Blog/index.html
>
>
> Valete.
> G. Minicius Agrippa
>

Salve Pompeia
Thank you very much for your special words.
Valete
Agrippa

> ---Salve Minuci Agrippe Salvete Omnes:
>
> Minici Agrippe, what a wonderful video! I like the way the viewer
> is 'walked' through the site, very nice work indeed. I liked the
> introduction and finish as well....ok, I liked 'all' of it! :>)
>
> Very professional and educational.
>
> Thank you very much for sharing your project with us.
>
> Valete
> Pompeia
>
>
> In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "G. MINICIUS AGRIPPA" <csm@...> wrote:
>>
>> Salvete.
>> In my work to disclose aspects of the old architecture of the N.O. of
>> Hispania I present to you the amphitheatre of Lucus Augusti at
>> NRHispania´s blog:
>>
>> http://www.nrhispania.org/Blog/index.html
>>
>>
>> Valete.
>> G. Minicius Agrippa
>>
>
>
>

A. Liburnius Gn. Marino A. Minuciae S.P.D.

Thanks for the correction, but please note that while it may be a
very widespread and well documented "urban legend", it also exists
in other languages, with the same explanation (the Dutch "stinkend
rijk" and the German "stinkende reich" come to mind), appearing in
writing well before 1945.
It ties also well into the frequent medieval references to wealth
and riches as muck and dirt and the far more relaxed approach to
bodily functions and emanations (Chaucer for example).
Being a skeptic, I am not ready to discard or accept an explanation
until I can prove or disprove its validity, so I'll keep doing some
research work. I'll let you know if anything developes.

Valete
A. Liburnius Hadrianus


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
<gawne@...> wrote:

>
> Salve Annia Minucia, et salve Hadriane,
>
> Annia Minucia Marcella <annia@...> writes:
>
> [addressing A Liburnius Hadrianus' claim that "stinking rich"

refers to

> wealthy people being buried inside cathedrals]
>
> > I do not believe the phrase "stinking rich" was started because

of that

> > reason. Where did you get this idea from?
>
> It's a standard tour guide story, though you're correct to doubt

its veracity.

> The term "stinking rich" doesn't appear in print in any

historical record

> before 1945. For more, see http://www.word-

detective.com/0706B.html

>
> Hadriane, I fear you were taken in by a popular but untrue tale.

You should

> develop a healthy skepticism.
>
> Vale,
>
> CN•EQVIT•MARINVS
>

M.Hortensia Fl. Galerio spd;
Galeri you said this

". Women were forbidden to be present during the opening ceremonies
of certain rites to Hercules and Silvanus"

Now where are your scholarly citations? I posted mine. The current
scholarly understanding is that women were forbidden only from the
altar of the Ara Maxima of Hercules.

Let's stick to one discussion with citations at one time.
bene vale
M. Hortensia Maior





I reply when you post because some of your information can be
misleading to individuals who are new to Nova Roma but also because
I enjoy our discourses.  Actually, since you have stated that you
read French, shouldn't you actual footnote and reference Scheid's
work in the original French and then offer a translation?

>
>
>
> As you are no doubt aware, there is no one single text that offers

a clear viewpoint on the Sacra et Religio to newcomers to our
organization.  Scheid is readily available and has been recommended
by the College of Pontiffs.  It is also relatively inexpensive via
Amazon.com.  Would that Scullard's work be reprinted so it could be
as inexpensive as Fowler--both works essential to an understanding
of the Roman holidays and celebrations under the Republic. 

>
> Personally, I like the two volume set "Religions of Rome" by

Beard, North, and Price as the primary work.  My reason for this is
because of the informtion provided in Chapter 1-3 (pgs. 1-140 in
Volume 1) namely Early Rome, Imperial triumph & religious change,
and Religion in the late Republic; along with Chapter 7, Section
1 'Roman religion outside Rome' & Section 2 'Controls & integration'
(pgs. 320-348).  These sections have very good material on
organization of the sacred colleges without any pretense that any
scholar really knows the origins of most of the Sacra et Religio
prior to the 2nd century B.C.  The sections in Chapter 7 are useful
to get a feel for what Roman rites were actually celebrated and what
portions of the Sacra et Relgio could be found in the provinces.

>
> As you know from the provincial website for Austrorientalis, Marca

Hortensia, we have been holding and celebrating certain rites here
in the Middle Tennessee area since I became governor; some on public
land, some private, and occasionally at pagan festivals.  I believe
that each province should celebrate those rites that are
traditionally held in the provinces from sources like the military
calendar from Dura Europos (Religions of Rome, vol. 2; Section 3.5,
pgs. 71-74) with the exception of those dedicated to the Imperial
Cults and excluding that sacrificing a bull, ox, sheep, pig, or goat
(which is economically impossible for small groups of citizens).

>
> However, you and I differ on whether to celebrate all of the

festivals that would normally be held in Rome or Italy.  As a
provincial governor, I would rather hold a few public rites and/or
festivals that can be attended by as many citizens as possible than
trying to adhere to the calendar as it existed in Rome or Italy more
especially the festival tied to the establishment of temples. 
This is very important when you consider that land outside of Italy
could traditionally not be considered sacred but merely
religious.  Our province only has one templum that has been
purposely consecrated, purified, and dedicated according to the
traditional methods but a historical Roman would still consider it
only religious and not sacred (sacer) because it is outside of
Italia.

>
> In regard to referencing specific examples of women dedicating

prayers to Hercules and Silvanus or other Gods, I will endeavor to
supply you with some epigraphic information of dedications made by
women for templum and altars in the very near future.

>
> Vadite in pace Cereris. 
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Maior <rory12001@...>
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Mon, 28 May 2007 11:22 pm
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Books on Roman Religion - Opinions Please
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> M. Hortensia Fl. Galerio spd;
> so far the majority opinion of current scholarly
> research is that women were forbidden to worship Hercules ONLY at
> the Ara Maxima :
> http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Reading_list_for_the_cultus_deorum
> Do look at Women's Religious Activity & "La Vie Religieuse des
> Matrones.." which I've put into the Wiki & all the footnotes
> naturally.
>
> If you say I am, or rather the reseach is inaccurate, what are

your

> references for both Hercules and Silvanus. If you make a statement
> like that you must please give some facts.
>
> If you look at Scheid, p. 155 he lists Roman dieties & patronage.
> There is "Bona Dea" & matronae, "Diana" women, re-inforces

outmoded

> ways of understanding the Religio.
>
> I've found such outright dated & simply wrong research that was
> presented by some pontifices, that I will only discuss the
> historical Religio with someone if they support their opinion with
> titles of books & footnotes. So we can have a sensible discussion
>
> As a side note. Why do you always reply when I post about the
> Religio?
> vale
> M. Hortensia Maior
>
>
> >
> > The above statement is partially inaccurate. Women were

forbidden

> to be
> > present during the opening ceremonies of certain rites to

Hercules

> and Silvanus
> > not forbidden to pray to Hercules and Silvanus. I know nothing
> in my English
> > translation of Scheid that states women did not pray to Hercules.
> >
> > Hercules was considered a patron god among businessmen (and

women)

> as well
> > as the patron God of Herculaneum. It is doubtful that women

could

> not offer
> > sacrifice to Hercules or participate in portions of His rites
> other than the
> > opening rites. The cult of Silvanus is more of a question but
> Silvanus ranks
> > as one of the four principal gods that are found on surviving
> inscriptions.
> > Silvanus had control of all unimproved or wild land. Invocations
> to Silvanus
> > were an essential part of the dedication, purification, and
> consecration of
> > many a shrine (templum).
> >
> > Valete.
> >
> > bene vale
> > M. Hortensia Maior
> > producer 'Vox Romana'podcast
> > _http://www.insulaumhttp://www.insulht_
> > (http://www.insulaumbra.com/voxromana/)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ************************************** See what's free at
> http://www.aol.com
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
___

> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's

free from AOL at AOL.com.

>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

A. Liburnius Tito Aquila M. Maiori Quiritibus S.P.D.

As I said, the idea is excellent.
A possible candidate could be the temple of Romulus, which is not
used as a church. It is located in the Forum, right below the temple
(church) of Mars Ultor.

http://sights.seindal.dk/sight/176_Temple_of_Romulus.html
http://intranet.grundel.nl/thinkquest/uitgelicht.html

I dont know what is its current state of repair or disrepair, the
Italian state policy on the matter, financial requirements, etc...
I suspect we could involve the very active Italian group, were there
a plan in place...

Valete
A. Liburnius Hadrianus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "titus.aquila" <titus.aquila@...>
wrote:

>
> Titus Flavius Aquila Marcia Hortensia Maior spd:
>
> thank you very much for your support.
>
> I like the idea of an state owned temple as well. To my knowledge

we

> have never tried to hand in a petition to the Italian state, we
> should really do it, this would bring us a big step forward and it
> would be a symbol for the world that Nova Roma is growing and

will

> support the greatness of Rome.
>
> In Germany we have a saying/proverb which states:
> He who fights might loose
> He who does not fight has lost already
>
> So let's give it a try !
>
> May the gods grant us further prosperity & joy!
>
> Vale bene
> Titus Flavius Aquila
>
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@> wrote:
> >
> > M.Hortensia A. Liburnio Quiritibusque spd:
> > ecastor Liburne,'stinking rich' I had no idea where
> that
> > came from & it is likely I shall never forget;-) Many thanks for
> > that treat!
> > Well how about requesting the State to permit Roman

cultores

> to
> > offer at the beautiful temple of Portunus or the sublime Temple
> of
> > Hercules at the Forum Boiarum? Both in the Forum.
> >
> > They are not churches & the property is state-owned. This is a
> great
> > idea, & would celebrate the greatness & continuity of Rome. We

can

> > brainstorm, I really think this is possible.
> > valete in pacem deorum
> > M. Hortensia Maior
> >
> >
> >
> > > Occasionally the smell of decomposing bodies would be noticed

by

> > the
> > > populace, hence the english saying "stinking rich".
> > > .
> > > The idea is excellent, the chances of the Catholic church
> letting
> > go
> > > of a price possession are somewhere between fat and slim...8-)
> > >
> > > Vale valeteque
> > > A. Liburnius
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > M. Hortensia A. Liburnio spd;
> > > > is there a state-owned temple Liburne? Would any of

the

> > > Itali
> > > > know? This really is an excellent idea.Symbols are extremely
> > > > important and the news loves them. Metaphorical hats off to
> > Aquila
> > > > for having this idea.
> > > > I'd post it myself on the NRItalia list but I'm

waiting

> > for
> > > > my new Italian dictionary to arrive;-)
> > > > bene vale
> > > > M. Hortensia Maior
> > > > >
> > > > > A.Liburnius Quiritibus S.P.D.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have received some answers from the Italian mailing

list

> > and
> > > > they
> > > > > confirm my previous suspicions:
> > > > >
> > > > > ----------------------------
> > > > > ...confermo, il Pantheon è ufficialmente la Chiesa di

Santa

> > Maria
> > > > ad
> > > > > Martyres e lo è dal 608 d.C., quando l'imperatore

bizantino

> > Foca
> > > > la
> > > > > donò alla Chiesa (in tale occasione fu eretto l'ultimo
> > monumento
> > > > nel
> > > > > Foro, la Colonna di Foca appunto)...
> > > > >
> > > > > I confirm that the Pantheon is officially the church
> of "Santa
> > > > Maria
> > > > > ad Martyres" and has been so since 608 A.D., when the
> > byzantine
> > > > > emperor Phocas deeded it to the church (in such occasion

was

> > > > erected
> > > > > the last monument in the forum, namely Phocas' column).
> > > > >
> > > > > ----------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > ...è anche utilizzato notoriamente come illustre sepolcro
> per
> > > > > personaggi come Raffaello o Vittorio Emanuele II...
> > > > >
> > > > > It is also notoriously utilized as the famous of

individuals

> > such
> > > > as
> > > > > Raphael and King Victor Emanuel II...
> > > > >
> > > > > ----------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > ...E' sicuramente usato ecclesiasticamente (notevoli le
> messe
> > di
> > > > > natale)...
> > > > >
> > > > > It is definetely used ecclesiastically (worth mentioning

are

> > the
> > > > > Christmass masses).
> > > > >
> > > > > ----------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > ...è tuttora in attività una associazione
> denominata "guardie
> > > > reali
> > > > > del Pantheon", il cui compito è quello di rendere omaggio
> alle
> > > > tombe
> > > > > dei regnanti Savoia che vi sono tumulati.
> > > > > L'associazione ha una sede ufficiale in una stradina

chiusa,

> > > > > laterale al Pantheon, ed i suoi membri ( o meglio i
> > superstiti,
> > > > > essendo quasi tutti molto anziani) dispongono di una

divisa

> > con
> > > > > mantello che indossano con grande sussiego quando montano

di

> > > > guardia
> > > > > alle tombe reali...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > There is still an association named "royal guards of the
> > > > Pantheon",
> > > > > whose task is to pay homage to the tumbs of the royal

house

> of
> > > > > Savoy, there enshrined. the association has its official
> > > residence
> > > > > in a dead end street on one side of the Pantheon, and its
> > members
> > > > > (or better the survivors, as thy are all very old) are
> > equipped
> > > > with
> > > > > a parade uniform with cape, that they wear with much
> > seriousness,
> > > > > when they are on duty by the royal tumbs.
> > > > >
> > > > > ----------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > ...Una curiosità: il tamburo della cupola è il più grande

di

> > > Roma,
> > > > > anche più di quello della cupola di s. Pietro...
> > > > >
> > > > > As a curiosity the drum of the cupola is the biggest in

Rome

> > and
> > > > > surpasses even the one in Saint Peter.
> > > > >
> > > > > ----------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > I hope that helps.
> > > > >
> > > > > Valete
> > > > > ALH
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Aulus Liburnius
> Hadrianus"
> > > > > <reenbru@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A. Liburnius omnibus S.P.D.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Unless I am mistaken, the Pantheon is ecclesiastic, not
> > public
> > > > > > property. It also known as "Santa Maria Rotonda"
> (or "Saint
> > > > Mary,
> > > > > > the Round"). It may actually still be a parish church.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I will post the question on the Italian Web Site to get
> some
> > > > > answers.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Valete
> > > > > > Aulus Liburnius Hadrianus
> > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "titus.aquila"
> > > <titus.aquila@>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Titus Flavius Aquila Flavio Galeri Aureliane salutem
> > plurimam
> > > > > > dicit.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thank you for your open minded response and with all
> > respect,
> > > > > > > sometimes it needs a small donkey to get working and a
> > small
> > > > > > donkey
> > > > > > > when starting to work can achieve a lot.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have opened the discussion as I would like to see

Nova

> > Roma
> > > > > grow
> > > > > > > and get better known in the public .
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yes, we are meeting locally and that's great and a lot
> of
> > > > effort
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > put into these local meetings, but does it really help
> us
> > > grow
> > > > > or
> > > > > > > get better known in the world ?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > For the Pantheon petition, well we never have tried ,
> have
> > > > we ?
> > > > > We
> > > > > > > do have Italian Citizens as our Nova Roma Citizens, so
> why
> > > not
> > > > > > give
> > > > > > > it a try.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Even stumbling blocks can be turned into rolling

stones

> in
> > > our
> > > > > > favor
> > > > > > > if we push hard enough.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Diis bene iuvantibus sumus
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Valete
> > > > > > > Titus Flavius Aquila
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

M. Hortensia A. Liburnio Tito Aquilae Quiritibus S.P.D.
it would be strategic to choose a state-owned temple in good
repair, otherwise the state can easily say 'oh sorry but you can't
it's too dangerous' without really dealing with the rights of
cultores to worship at a state-owned temple.
Aquila that is a great saying! I'm working on my German so if
you'd say it I'll memorize it.
You also now have an example of the Greek gov't, part of the EU,
permitting Greek cultores YSEE, to worship in an historical part, so
that's persuasive.
I think this is a great & one of the most worthwhile projects
in Nova Roma & am committed to it, so I am happy to work with you,
Aquila on a plan. Maybe you could invite YSEE too along with the
very active Italian group.
ene valete
M. Hortensia Maior

>
> As I said, the idea is excellent.
> A possible candidate could be the temple of Romulus, which is not
> used as a church. It is located in the Forum, right below the

temple

> (church) of Mars Ultor.
>
> http://sights.seindal.dk/sight/176_Temple_of_Romulus.html
> http://intranet.grundel.nl/thinkquest/uitgelicht.html
>
> I dont know what is its current state of repair or disrepair, the
> Italian state policy on the matter, financial requirements, etc...
> I suspect we could involve the very active Italian group, were

there

> a plan in place...
>
> Valete
> A. Liburnius Hadrianus
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "titus.aquila" <titus.aquila@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Titus Flavius Aquila Marcia Hortensia Maior spd:
> >
> > thank you very much for your support.
> >
> > I like the idea of an state owned temple as well. To my

knowledge

> we
> > have never tried to hand in a petition to the Italian state, we
> > should really do it, this would bring us a big step forward and

it

> > would be a symbol for the world that Nova Roma is growing and
> will
> > support the greatness of Rome.
> >
> > In Germany we have a saying/proverb which states:
> > He who fights might loose
> > He who does not fight has lost already
> >
> > So let's give it a try !
> >
> > May the gods grant us further prosperity & joy!
> >
> > Vale bene
> > Titus Flavius Aquila
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > >
> > > M.Hortensia A. Liburnio Quiritibusque spd:
> > > ecastor Liburne,'stinking rich' I had no idea

where

> > that
> > > came from & it is likely I shall never forget;-) Many thanks

for

> > > that treat!
> > > Well how about requesting the State to permit Roman
> cultores
> > to
> > > offer at the beautiful temple of Portunus or the sublime

Temple

> > of
> > > Hercules at the Forum Boiarum? Both in the Forum.
> > >
> > > They are not churches & the property is state-owned. This is a
> > great
> > > idea, & would celebrate the greatness & continuity of Rome. We
> can
> > > brainstorm, I really think this is possible.
> > > valete in pacem deorum
> > > M. Hortensia Maior
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Occasionally the smell of decomposing bodies would be

noticed

> by
> > > the
> > > > populace, hence the english saying "stinking rich".
> > > > .
> > > > The idea is excellent, the chances of the Catholic church
> > letting
> > > go
> > > > of a price possession are somewhere between fat and slim...8-

)

> > > >
> > > > Vale valeteque
> > > > A. Liburnius
> > > >
> > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > M. Hortensia A. Liburnio spd;
> > > > > is there a state-owned temple Liburne? Would any of
> the
> > > > Itali
> > > > > know? This really is an excellent idea.Symbols are

extremely

> > > > > important and the news loves them. Metaphorical hats off

to

> > > Aquila
> > > > > for having this idea.
> > > > > I'd post it myself on the NRItalia list but I'm
> waiting
> > > for
> > > > > my new Italian dictionary to arrive;-)
> > > > > bene vale
> > > > > M. Hortensia Maior
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A.Liburnius Quiritibus S.P.D.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have received some answers from the Italian mailing
> list
> > > and
> > > > > they
> > > > > > confirm my previous suspicions:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----------------------------
> > > > > > ...confermo, il Pantheon è ufficialmente la Chiesa di
> Santa
> > > Maria
> > > > > ad
> > > > > > Martyres e lo è dal 608 d.C., quando l'imperatore
> bizantino
> > > Foca
> > > > > la
> > > > > > donò alla Chiesa (in tale occasione fu eretto l'ultimo
> > > monumento
> > > > > nel
> > > > > > Foro, la Colonna di Foca appunto)...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I confirm that the Pantheon is officially the church
> > of "Santa
> > > > > Maria
> > > > > > ad Martyres" and has been so since 608 A.D., when the
> > > byzantine
> > > > > > emperor Phocas deeded it to the church (in such occasion
> was
> > > > > erected
> > > > > > the last monument in the forum, namely Phocas' column).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----------------------------
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ...è anche utilizzato notoriamente come illustre

sepolcro

> > per
> > > > > > personaggi come Raffaello o Vittorio Emanuele II...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It is also notoriously utilized as the famous of
> individuals
> > > such
> > > > > as
> > > > > > Raphael and King Victor Emanuel II...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----------------------------
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ...E' sicuramente usato ecclesiasticamente (notevoli le
> > messe
> > > di
> > > > > > natale)...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It is definetely used ecclesiastically (worth mentioning
> are
> > > the
> > > > > > Christmass masses).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----------------------------
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ...è tuttora in attività una associazione
> > denominata "guardie
> > > > > reali
> > > > > > del Pantheon", il cui compito è quello di rendere

omaggio

> > alle
> > > > > tombe
> > > > > > dei regnanti Savoia che vi sono tumulati.
> > > > > > L'associazione ha una sede ufficiale in una stradina
> chiusa,
> > > > > > laterale al Pantheon, ed i suoi membri ( o meglio i
> > > superstiti,
> > > > > > essendo quasi tutti molto anziani) dispongono di una
> divisa
> > > con
> > > > > > mantello che indossano con grande sussiego quando

montano

> di
> > > > > guardia
> > > > > > alle tombe reali...
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There is still an association named "royal guards of the
> > > > > Pantheon",
> > > > > > whose task is to pay homage to the tumbs of the royal
> house
> > of
> > > > > > Savoy, there enshrined. the association has its official
> > > > residence
> > > > > > in a dead end street on one side of the Pantheon, and

its

> > > members
> > > > > > (or better the survivors, as thy are all very old) are
> > > equipped
> > > > > with
> > > > > > a parade uniform with cape, that they wear with much
> > > seriousness,
> > > > > > when they are on duty by the royal tumbs.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----------------------------
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ...Una curiosità: il tamburo della cupola è il più

grande

> di
> > > > Roma,
> > > > > > anche più di quello della cupola di s. Pietro...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As a curiosity the drum of the cupola is the biggest in
> Rome
> > > and
> > > > > > surpasses even the one in Saint Peter.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----------------------------
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I hope that helps.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Valete
> > > > > > ALH
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Aulus Liburnius
> > Hadrianus"
> > > > > > <reenbru@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > A. Liburnius omnibus S.P.D.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Unless I am mistaken, the Pantheon is ecclesiastic,

not

> > > public
> > > > > > > property. It also known as "Santa Maria Rotonda"
> > (or "Saint
> > > > > Mary,
> > > > > > > the Round"). It may actually still be a parish church.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I will post the question on the Italian Web Site to

get

> > some
> > > > > > answers.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Valete
> > > > > > > Aulus Liburnius Hadrianus
> > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "titus.aquila"
> > > > <titus.aquila@>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Titus Flavius Aquila Flavio Galeri Aureliane salutem
> > > plurimam
> > > > > > > dicit.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thank you for your open minded response and with all
> > > respect,
> > > > > > > > sometimes it needs a small donkey to get working and

a

> > > small
> > > > > > > donkey
> > > > > > > > when starting to work can achieve a lot.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I have opened the discussion as I would like to see
> Nova
> > > Roma
> > > > > > grow
> > > > > > > > and get better known in the public .
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Yes, we are meeting locally and that's great and a

lot

> > of
> > > > > effort
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > put into these local meetings, but does it really

help

> > us
> > > > grow
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > get better known in the world ?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > For the Pantheon petition, well we never have

tried ,

> > have
> > > > > we ?
> > > > > > We
> > > > > > > > do have Italian Citizens as our Nova Roma Citizens,

so

> > why
> > > > not
> > > > > > > give
> > > > > > > > it a try.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Even stumbling blocks can be turned into rolling
> stones
> > in
> > > > our
> > > > > > > favor
> > > > > > > > if we push hard enough.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Diis bene iuvantibus sumus
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Valete
> > > > > > > > Titus Flavius Aquila
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Aulus Liburnius Hadrianus wrote:

> It ties also well into the frequent medieval references to wealth
> and riches as muck and dirt and the far more relaxed approach to
> bodily functions and emanations (Chaucer for example).

Salve,

My take on the matter is one I believe I have learned during a guided
tour of one ancient castle or another. Closets, today associated only
with clothes, do indeed have a relation with modern "water closets", or
toilets.

The rich, or more accurately the ones with large stone buildings, kept
their clothes in the same room as their in-door toilets, to keep the
moths away. The toilet led down, through a channel, either to a storage
place from which servants could periodically remove the waste or
directly into the moat.

The smell, on the other hand, not only warded off moths but also stuck
to the clothes. Thus, the rich could quite literally be stinking up a
storm when walking in their finery. Hence perfume gained a foothold and
the rest, as they say, is history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garderobe

Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.

Salve

The report was posted in the Senate List for his correction or adjustment since May 27th. I do not receive comments from you or from other Senatores, and for this silence I decided to post today the final report. As you know, this time, the Tribunes report was posted with delay, caused by my internet connection problems.

Vale

M�CVRIATIVS�COMPLVTENSIS
TRIBVNVS PLEBIS
NOVA ROMA
-----------------------------------------
ex paucis multa, ex minimis maxima


----- Mensaje original -----
De: Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)
Para: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: martes, 29 de mayo de 2007 17:17
Asunto: [Nova-Roma] Re: REPORT OF THE SENATE SESSION (One senator missing)


Salvete gentlemen,

An adjustment to the report is needed here. YoU left off Quintus
Suetonius Paulinus who voted VTI ROGAS in this session.

Regards,

Quintus Suetonius Paulinus

> Here is the list of the voting Senators:
>
> TGP>Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> GEM> Gn. Equitius Marinus
> PMS> Pompeia Minucia Strabo
> GFBM> Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus
> TOPA> Titus Octavius Pius Ahenobarbus
> CFBQ> Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus
> CEC> C. Equitius Cato
> MMPH> M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus
> LAF> L. Arminius Faustus
> LECA> L. Equitius Cincinnatus Augur
> CFD> Caius Flavius Diocletianus
> QFM> Q. Fabius Maximus
> ATMC> Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato
> ATS> A. Tullia Scholastica
> MBA> Marcus Bianchius Antonius
> GSA> Gn Salvius Astur
> SAS> Sextus Apollonius Scipio
> JSM> Julilla Sempronia Magna
> MMA> M Minucius Audens
> MIP> M Iulius Perusianus
> CMM> C. Marius Merullus
> AMA> A Moravia Aurelia
>
> The session was closed May 20th at the 11,59 PM Central European

Summer Time (5:59pm EST).

>
> The votes of A Moravia Aurelia and L Equitius Cincinnatus Augur

arrived after the deadline of the votation.

>
>

*********************************************************************
*********************************************************************
*******************

>
>
>
> L. Arminius Faustus votes
>
> Proposal I - To revoke SC XIX
>
> VTI ROGAS - I have some reasons to vote for revokation of SC XIX.
> First, it enters in contradiction with the constitution. Second,

it creates a different magistrature with the same name of others
(Praetor against a "praetor"-governor. Third, this kind of
modification should be done by a Constitution change to avoid
contradiction. Fourth, on Ancient the praetores were governores, but
they were elected by the

> Comitia, which is not the case of NR. Fifth, on Ancient Rome,

governores made by the senate like NR were called propraetores like
NR already do. Sixth, I see nothing in benefit to NR, this SC was
dead letter since the begging it wasn�t followed. Seventh it is in
contradiction with own latter and newer Senatusconsulta, that it is
an

> indication the current Senate should be listened. Eighth there is

no constitutional basis to differ the work of the Praetor to the
governor praetor. Nineth there is no clear definition of Imperium
and Provincia on NR legal system, so it can raise to many conflicts
with the Praetores and Consules Imperium. Tenth, Last but not least,
fishing

> dead letter laws brings no benefit to NR, it is just searching for

legal niceties. So, by all these reasons, I vote to revoke.

>
> I recall after this situation of SC XIX is solved, we can discuss

further developments.

>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus votes
>
> I vote Antiqvo on its repeal.
> The Senatus Consultum on provincial titles should stand because

your reasoning is wrong. The Senate of Nova Roma has the
constitutional power to adopt any title we believe is appropriate.

>
> Discessione Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
>
>
> Proposal I - To revoke SC XIX
>
> VTI ROGAS
>
> Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus
>
> Proposal I - To revoke SC XIX
>
> UTI ROGAS
> --
>
> Vote of Titus Octavius Pius Ahenobarbus
>
> Salvete, senatores.
>
> Here is my vote in the ongoing senate session.
>
> > Proposal I - To revoke SC XIX
>
> UTI ROGAS - I fully appreciate the dangers in using the same title

for different offices and support the measure to rectify this
situation.

>
> Vote of Senator Marcus Minucius Audens
>
> Proposal I -- To revoke SC XIX;
>
> YES � MMA
>
> Vote of Sextus Apollonius Scipio
>
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> Proposal I - To revoke SC XIX
>
> UTI ROGAS
>
> Vote of Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus
>
> Proposal I - To revoke SC XIX
>
> UTI ROGAS
>
> Discessiones Cn. Salvii Asturis
>
> CN�SALVIVS�ASTVR�PATRIBVS�CONSCRIPTISQVE�S�P�D
>
> S�V�B�E�E�V
>
> > Proposal I - To revoke SC XIX
>
> I vote in favour.
> The idea to call provincial governors "praetores" is born from a

deep lack of understanding of Roman historical practice. Since it is
not based on historical practice, and it has no advantage at all -
other than to be confusing - there is no reason why it should have
been approved in the first place. I voted against it, and I vote to
remove

> it today.
>
> Discessiones M. Moravius Piscinus
>
> Proposal I - To revoke SC XIX
>
> MMPH: UTI ROGAS
>
>
> Suffragia Pompeia Minuciae Strabone
>
> Item I:
>
> To rescind Senatus Consultum XIX:
>
> UTI ROGAS
>
> Respectfully, I didn't vote for this Consultum in the first place.
>
> Suffragia Caius Flavius Diocletianus
>
>
> PROPOSAL
>
> I. Should the SC XIX ("Senatus Consultum (XIX) : Standardization

of Titles for Provincial Magistrates Adopted August 7, 2751)") be
revoked due to its contradition with the NR Constituion, as stated
by Consul L. Arminius Faustus?

>
> CFD: Uti Rogas
>
> Discessiones Julillae Semproniae Magnae
>
> I. Should the SC XIX ("Senatus Consultum (XIX) : Standardization

of Titles for Provincial Magistrates Adopted August 7, 2751)") be
revoked

> due to its contradition with the NR Constituion, as stated by

Consul L. Arminius Faustus?

>
> JSM: Uti Rogas
>
>
> Discessiones M Iul Perusianus
>
> > Proposal I - To revoke SC XIX
>
> VTI ROGAS
>
> Vote of Sextus Apollonius Scipio
>
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> Proposal I - To revoke SC XIX
>
> UTI ROGAS
>
> Vote of C. Equitius Cato
>
> Cato omnes SPD
>
> Salvete omnes.
>
> Arminus Faustus wrote (in part):
>
> "First, it enters in contradiction with the constitution."
>
> CATO: I have not been shown this contradiction. It does not exist.
>
> "Second, it creates a different magistrature with the same name of

others (Praetor against a "praetor"-governor."

>
> CATO: and why is having two magistracies with a similiar title so

abhorrent? I think it speaks ill of our abilities to discern between
a praetor of the Republic (such as, currently, myself) and the
governor of a province.

>
> "Sixth, I see nothing in benfit to NR, this SC was dead letter

since the begging [sic] it wasn�t followed."

>
> CATO: if a law is not obeyed that does not make it any less a law;

the fault lies with those given the obligation to obey and/or
enforce the law, not with the law itself.

>
> "Seventh it is in contradiction with own latter and newer

Senatusconsulta, that it is an indication the current Senate should
be listened."

>
> CATO: forgive me, but I have no idea what this means.
>
> "Eighth there is no constitutional basis to differ the work of

the Praetor to the governor praetor."

>
> CATO: I would point my colleagues to the lex Constitutiva IV.3.a-e

and V.C.1-5; These quite clearly define the "work" of the praetors
of the Republic as opposed to the governors of provinces. And
finally, again the lex Constitutiva says specifically: "The Senate
may, by Senatus Consultum, create provinciae for administrative
purposes and appoint provincial governors therefor, who shall bear
such titles as the Senate may deem appropriate." (V.C)

>
> Therefore, in the matter of Proposal I: to revoke SC XIX, I vote:

ANTIQUO

>
> Marcus Bianchius Antonius - Votes
>
> Revoke SC XIX
>
> MBA: Uti Rogas
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica
>
> > Proposal I - To revoke SC XIX
>
>
> Vti rogas. I agree with the honorable Senator Cn. Salvius

Astur's words copied below, and those of several others.

>
>
> CSA: The idea to call provincial governors "praetores" is born

from a deep lack of understanding of Roman historical practice.
Since it is not based on historical practice, and it has no
advantage at all - other than to be confusing - there is no reason
why it should have been approved in the first place. I voted against
it, and I vote to remove it today.

>
> Vote of Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato
>
>
> With due respect to our Gods and Goddesses, and this honorable

Assembly, I vote as follows:

>
> Item I:
>
> To rescind Senatus Consultum XIX:
>
> ATMC - UTI ROGAS
>
> Q. Fabius Maximus
>
> Proposal I - To revoke SC XIX
> QFM: Antiquo
>
> First, it enters in contradiction with the constitution.
>
> How does it do that? The constitution allows the Senate to create

the position and choose who to administer it.

>
> Second, it creates a different magistrature with the same name of

others (Praetor against a "praetor"-governor.)

>
> But Consul it is at least accurate. The Steersman for the

Imperial provinces, appointed by the Emperor, is not the Republic.
It is not used in any type of Roman republic. We profess to be the
recreation of the Republic. I realize a lot of people here want to
be emperor, but that's not going to happen. Octavius' restoration
of the "republic" was a sham. It was never a Republic. He was
first of the citizens, who controlled all. No one in Nova Roma is
ever going to have that amount of control.

>
> Third, this kind of modification should be done by a Constitution

change to avoid contradiction.

>
> But Consul we are following the Constitution. The Senate has this

power. And this power of naming Province leaders guaranteed in the
Constitution.

>
> Fourth, on Ancient the praetores were governores, but they were

elected by the Comitia, which is not the case of NR.

>
> Yes you are correct about that. But they were never governors.

That came under Augustus. These praetors are provincial only. The
latin term praetor is derived from the Latin "prat-ire" I.E, 'to
lead', 'to precede'. Livius says it was originally the name offered
by the highest Roman magistrate, who later came to be called
consul. You have a magistrate who leads a province.

> Fifth, on Ancient Rome, governores made by the senate like NR were

called propraetores like NR already do.

>
> I have no idea where you get your knowledge but the Emperor

appointed the Governors of his provinces. The Senate could only
appoint Praetors to their provinces which I believe by the
Principate were six.

> VI and VII I do not understand your logic so I have no comment.
>
> Eighth there is no constitutional basis to differ the work of the

Praetor to the governor praetor.

>
> But why is one needed? Do you really believe a provincial praetor

is really going to think he has the same abilities of the City
Praetors?

>
> Ninth there is no clear definition of Imperium and Provincia on NR

legal system, so it can raise to many conflicts with the Praetores
and Consules Imperium.

>
> That is utter nonsense. For one thing, the Constitution defines

the pecking order, and Provincial magistrates are way down on the
list.

>
> Tenth, Last but not least, fishing dead letter laws brings no

benefit to NR, it is just searching for legal niceties. So, by all
these reasons, I vote to revoke.

>
> I cordially disagree. So therefore I vote to retain.
>
>
> Suffragium C Marii Merulli
>
> Nego I vote not to rescind the old senatus consultum. The new

version proposed does not improve significantly on the in-force
title system as far as I can see and has "legatus pro praetor".
Legatus pro praetore is a very awkward title and does not
distinguish clearly the governing magistrate from the assisting ones
(legati).

>
>

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

>
> SUFFRAGIA ARRIVED AFTER THE DEADLINE
>
> Suffragia L Equitius Cincinnatus Augur
>
> L Equitius Cincinnatus Augur Curiae salutem dicit
>
> Salvete
>
> 'Iuppiter Optime Maxime, qui genus colis alisque hominem, per quem

vivimus vitalem aevum, quem penes spes vitae sunt hominum omnium,
diem hunc sospitem quaeso meis rebus agundis'

>
> I. Should the SC XIX ("Senatus Consultum (XIX) : Standardization

of Titles for Provincial Magistrates Adopted August 7, 2751)") be
revoked due to its contradition with the NR Constituion, as stated
by Consul L. Arminius Faustus?

>
>
> Cincinnatus Augur: ANTIQUO, Praetor Cato, Pontifex Q Fabius and

Senator Merullus have demonstrated why there is no need for this,
and I agree.

> As a side item, I do wish to have explained why the issue of the

appointment of M Martianus is being neglected. What a fiasco!

>
> Mars nos protegas!
>
> vote of A. Moravia Aurelia
>
> � I. Should the SC XIX ("Senatus Consultum (XIX) :

Standardization of Titles for Provincial Magistrates Adopted August
7, 2751)") be revoked due to its contradition with the NR
Constituion, as stated by Consul L. Arminius Faustus?

>
> AMA: Uti Rogas
>
>
>

*********************************************************************
*********************************************************************
***************

>
> RESULTS
>
> ABSTINEO: 0
> ANTIQVO: 4
> VTI ROGAS: 16
>
>
> THE PROPOSAL IS PASSED AND THE SC XIX IS REVOKED
>
>
> Valete
>
> M�CVRIATIVS�COMPLVTENSIS
> TRIBVNVS PLEBIS
> NOVA ROMA
> -----------------------------------------
> ex paucis multa, ex minimis maxima
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]