Salutem Pluribum:

I hope is not a too high request for an applicant citizen. How many
citizens are from the Asia Orientalis province??

OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodie est Kalendis Quintilibus; haec dies nefastus est.

"True felicity lies only in the senses, and virtue gratifies none of
them." - Donatien Alphonse-Francois, Marquis de Sade

Today is dedicated to the goddess Felicitas. In Rome, Felicitas is
the goddess or personification of good luck and success. She plays an
important role in Rome's state religion during the empire, and was
frequently portrayed on coins. She became a prominent symbol of the
wealth and prosperity of the Roman Empire. Felicitas was unknown
before the mid-2nd century BC, when a temple was dedicated to her in
the Velabrum in the Campus Martius by Lucius Licinius Lucullus, using
booty from his 151–150 BC campaign in Spain. The temple was destroyed
by a fire during the reign of Claudius and was never rebuilt.

Another temple in Rome was planned by Iulius Caesar and was erected
after his death by Marcus Aemilius Lepidus on the site of the Curia
Hostilia, which had been restored by Lucius Cornelius Sulla but
demolished by Caesar in 44 BC. This temple no longer existed by the
time of Hadrian, and its site probably lies under the church of Santi
Martina e Luca.

The word felicitas, "luck", is also the source of the word and name
felicity.

Valete bene!

Cato



SOURCES

Wikipedia



Jules Verne has a 16th century alchemist named Arne Saknussemm use
the Kalends of July in "Journey to the Center of the Earth".

Salve Tite Aureli,

titusaurelius <titusaurelius@...> asked:

> How many citizens are from the Asia Orientalis province??

Seven. Three in Japan, two in Singapore, one in Thailand, and one in Taiwan.

Vale,

CN•EQVIT•MARINVS

Hello all!

Just to let you know that Horizon of the Aten is looking for new
members to encourage activity and would like to welcome you to join!
The group welcomes discussion on any period of ancient Egyptian
history but has a particular emphasis on the Amarna Period and New
Kingdom in general. Please become a part of our exciting community and
help promote intriguing and engaging discussions!

Click here to join: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/horizonaten

Many thanks,
Danny Bird
nefarious_bird@...

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "titusaurelius" <titusaurelius@...>
wrote:

>
> Salutem Pluribum:
>
> I hope is not a too high request for an applicant citizen. How many
> citizens are from the Asia Orientalis province??
>

I am one. Is there anything I can do for you?

Optime vale

M. Lucretius Agricola

M. Curiatius Complutensis Tribunus Plebis omnes civibus S·P·D·

The Consul Galerius Paulinus has called the Senate to discuss and vote the Agenda proposed.

The Message of the Consul is as following:

Salvete Conscript Fathers
Senator L Equitius Cincinnatus Augur has informed me that "In the matter of Auspicio Aves Admittunt', admissiva (allowed)."
Therefore
I herby convene the Senate on a.d. V Non. Quint. At 0001 Roman time (July 3, 2760 A.U.C) when the contio will commence until 23:59 Roman time on a.d. VII Id. Quint.(July 9th , 2760 A.U.C.) when it will end. Voting will then commence at 0000 Roman time on a.d. VI Id. Quint (July 10 and will end at 0001 Roman Time a.d. IV Id. Quint.( July 12th, 2760 A.U.C.) (23:59 is 11:59 PM CEST and 0001 is 12:01AM CEST)
Due to the national holiday in the USA the contio is extended from ninety-six (96) hours to one hundred and twenty (120 ) hours. The voting period is forty-eight hours (48) and one minute long.

Once debate has concluded Senators will send their votes to the Senate list where the results will be tabulated and the Tribunes will report the results to the people of Nova Roma in accordance with our laws and customs.

The Agenda is as follows:
Senate Agenda July 3, 2760
Item One
Appointment of Marcus Flavius Aurelius as Governor of Australia
Item Two
Appointment of Gaia Iulia Felix as Governor Asia Occidentalis
Item Three
Appointment of M. Lucretius Agricola as Governor of Asia Orientalis

Item four
Appointment of Julilla Sempronia Magna as Governor of America Boreoccidentalis
Item five
Appointment of Gnaeus Tullius Rex as Governor of Britannia
Item six
Appointment of Marcus Martianius Gangalius as Governor of California
Item seven
Appointment of M. Calidius Gracchus as Governor of Hibernia
Item eight
Appointment of Annia Minucia Marcella as Governor of Nova Britannia
Item nine
Adding the Principality of Luxembourg to Germania
In accordance with the constitutional authority granted the Senate to set the geographic boundaries of provinces, the macro-national Principality of Luxembourg is added to the province of Germania.
Earlier this year I created a scholarship committee under the leadership of the honorable A. Tullia Scholastica and consisting of M. Lucretius Agricola, D. Suetonius Lupus, Gallus Cassius Augurius, M. Lucretius Agricola and Sextus Pontius Pilatus Barbatus
Item ten
In accordance with the recommendation of the Scholarship committee, the Senate of Nova Roma awards a one thousand dollar (USD) scholarship for the year 2760 to Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus.
Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus is a graduate student of classical philology and the Italian language and literature in the Eötvös Lóránd University (ELTE) in Hungary, Budapest.
Item eleven
"Senate Consultum on the Standardization of Titles for Provincial Magistrates"

Standardization of Titles for Provincial Magistrates

In keeping with the authority granted to the Senate by Article III,
Paragraph 3, of the Constitution the following titles will be used in Nova Roma.

Currently-serving Consuls governing provinces shall be titled Consul.

Former Consuls who are continuing to govern a province after their term as Consul ends shall be titled Proconsul.

Currently-serving Praetors governing a province shall be titled Praetor.
Praetors who continue to govern a province after their first term of office ends shall be titled Propraetor.

The "governor" of Italy shall be called Praefectus Italiae. If a sitting
Consul or Praetor resides in Italy and they serve as "governor" on behalf of the Senate of Nova Roma they shall be called Consul or Praetor
All other citizens appointed by the Senate to govern a province of Nova Roma shall be called "Governor"

Magistrates appointed by governors to assist in the administration of their province shall be titled Legate.
Discussion question
Should we adopt the Aquila Heliaca project (Roman Imperial Eagle) as an official project of Nova Roma?
Valete
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

Valete bene

M·CVRIATIVS·COMPLVTENSIS
TRIBVNVS PLEBIS
NOVA ROMA

-------------------------------------------

ex paucis multa, ex minimis maxima



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

................All other citizens appointed by the Senate to govern
a province of Nova Roma shall be called "Governor".............

Sorry Consul

but "governor" is a latin word???

I think that there are many latin words to call these other citizens
appointed by the Senate to govern a province: Rector Provinciae, ad
exemplum, is an attested title. Why use an english word?

Vale

M·CVRIATIVS·COMPLVTENSIS
NOVA ROMA

-------------------------------------------

ex paucis multa, ex minimis maxima

M. Hortensia quiritibus spd;
having just remembered to pay my taxes, I've read the
announcement below with great pleasure. Now, I'm happy to pay them.
I'd also like to see the treasury reports & know what else our moneys
are doing.
M. Hortensia Maior
producer 'Vox Romana' podcast
website address is http://www.insulaumbra.com/voxromana/
RSS syndication is http://www.insulaumbra.com/voxromana/podcast.xml


the Senate of Nova Roma awards a one thousand dollar (USD) scholarship
for the year 2760 to Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus.

> Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus is a graduate student of classical

philology and the Italian language and literature in the E?s L󲡮d
University (ELTE) in Hungary, Budapest.

>

Salve Tribune

Because in the final analysis the title most of us will use will most likely be "Governor" in our native tongue. We have gone back and forth on what would be the most appropriate Latin term and the ongoing arguments, the never ending arguments on this type of minutiae just has to end. The business language of Nova Roma is English if you need another reason.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

----- Original Message -----
From: M. CVRIATIVS COMPLVTENSIS<mailto:complutensis@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 11:43 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: The Senate Call


................All other citizens appointed by the Senate to govern
a province of Nova Roma shall be called "Governor".............

Sorry Consul

but "governor" is a latin word???

I think that there are many latin words to call these other citizens
appointed by the Senate to govern a province: Rector Provinciae, ad
exemplum, is an attested title. Why use an english word?

Vale

M·CVRIATIVS·COMPLVTENSIS
NOVA ROMA

-------------------------------------------

ex paucis multa, ex minimis maxima






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Tiberio Galerio Paulino salutem dicit

Then why not simply leave things as they are and continue to use
Propraetor? Everyone is used to that, and while an alternative might be
better I don't think "Governor" is better than Propraetor. As it stands I
will vote against the proposed "Governor" language.

Vale:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus

On 7/2/07, Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Tribune
>
> Because in the final analysis the title most of us will use will most
> likely be "Governor" in our native tongue. We have gone back and forth on
> what would be the most appropriate Latin term and the ongoing arguments, the
> never ending arguments on this type of minutiae just has to end. The
> business language of Nova Roma is English if you need another reason.
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: M. CVRIATIVS COMPLVTENSIS<mailto:complutensis@...<complutensis%40gmail.com>>
>
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
> Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>>
> Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 11:43 AM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: The Senate Call
>
> ................All other citizens appointed by the Senate to govern
> a province of Nova Roma shall be called "Governor".............
>
> Sorry Consul
>
> but "governor" is a latin word???
>
> I think that there are many latin words to call these other citizens
> appointed by the Senate to govern a province: Rector Provinciae, ad
> exemplum, is an attested title. Why use an english word?
>
> Vale
>
> M·CVRIATIVS·COMPLVTENSIS
> NOVA ROMA
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

M. Hortensia Paulino spd;
its this kind of slipshod attitude that gets my goat. Did you post
over at 'Latinitas' and ask our scholars there? No, I didn't see
anything. Did you ask Avitus, the expert on Latin neologism?
Using English 'governor' is ridiculous for a multi-national org
devoted to Roman culture and latinity. You should leave it as it is.
I'm with G. Buteo Modianus on this.
M. Hortensia Maior



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "David Kling (Modianus)"
<tau.athanasios@...> wrote:

>
> Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Tiberio Galerio Paulino salutem dicit
>
> Then why not simply leave things as they are and continue to use
> Propraetor? Everyone is used to that, and while an alternative

might be

> better I don't think "Governor" is better than Propraetor. As it

stands I

> will vote against the proposed "Governor" language.
>
> Vale:
>
> Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus
>
> On 7/2/07, Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@...> wrote:
> >
> > Salve Tribune
> >
> > Because in the final analysis the title most of us will use will

most

> > likely be "Governor" in our native tongue. We have gone back and

forth on

> > what would be the most appropriate Latin term and the ongoing

arguments, the

> > never ending arguments on this type of minutiae just has to end.

The

> > business language of Nova Roma is English if you need another

reason.

> >
> > Vale
> >
> > Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: M. CVRIATIVS

COMPLVTENSIS<mailto:complutensis@...<complutensis%40gmail.com>>

> >
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%

40yahoogroups.com><mailto:

> > Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>>
> > Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 11:43 AM
> > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: The Senate Call
> >
> > ................All other citizens appointed by the Senate to

govern

> > a province of Nova Roma shall be called "Governor".............
> >
> > Sorry Consul
> >
> > but "governor" is a latin word???
> >
> > I think that there are many latin words to call these other

citizens

> > appointed by the Senate to govern a province: Rector Provinciae,

ad

> > exemplum, is an attested title. Why use an english word?
> >
> > Vale
> >
> > M?CVRIATIVS?COMPLVTENSIS
> > NOVA ROMA
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Salve Marca Hortensia,

I don't generally comment on senate business outside the senate chambers
during senate meetings, but I'll make an exception in this matter.

Maior <rory12001@...> writes:

> Using English 'governor' is ridiculous [...]

"Governor" is the term specified in the Constitution. It's the only term
specified in the Constitution. No matter what title of courtesy the Senate
happens to bestow due to current or past elective office, the fact remains
that until the Constitution is amended the legal title of a provincial
governor is 'governor' and nothing else.

Yes, this is another example of the problems caused by the Vedian
constitution. But it's a fact of life for us here in Nova Roma and we have
to deal with it.

Vale,

CN•EQVIT•MARINVS

Fl. Galerius Aurelianus Tribunus Plebis S.P.D.

I will be joining my colleague M. Curiatius to monitor the deliberations of
the Senate and to report those deliberations to the People at the appropriate
time.

Valete.



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Gnae Marine;
well I appreciate your point and your taking the time to make it.
Thanks. Just another reason to chuck the Vedian Constitution:-)
bene vale
Maior

>
> I don't generally comment on senate business outside the senate

chambers

> during senate meetings, but I'll make an exception in this matter.
>
> Maior <rory12001@...> writes:
>
> > Using English 'governor' is ridiculous [...]
>
> "Governor" is the term specified in the Constitution. It's the

only term

> specified in the Constitution. No matter what title of courtesy

the Senate

> happens to bestow due to current or past elective office, the fact

remains

> that until the Constitution is amended the legal title of a

provincial

> governor is 'governor' and nothing else.
>
> Yes, this is another example of the problems caused by the Vedian
> constitution. But it's a fact of life for us here in Nova Roma

and we have

> to deal with it.
>
> Vale,
>
> CN?EQVIT?MARINVS
>

Salvete Romani,

Item eleven

I am not happy at all with the term governor and I would like to see
the term Propraetor used.

Personally I would like to see a Propraetor Provinciae Germaniae and
not a governor of Germania.

Valete optime
Titus Flavius Aquila

Thanks for the reply, I live in Corea Australis, i'm surprised there is no one living in Seres (China).

It will be difficult to organise a Conventum in our province...


"M. Lucretius Agricola" <wm_hogue@...> escribió:
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "titusaurelius" <titusaurelius@...>
wrote:

>
> Salutem Pluribum:
>
> I hope is not a too high request for an applicant citizen. How many
> citizens are from the Asia Orientalis province??
>

I am one. Is there anything I can do for you?

Optime vale

M. Lucretius Agricola






---------------------------------

¡Descubre una nueva forma de obtener respuestas a tus preguntas!
Entra en Yahoo! Respuestas.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete omnes,

I fully agree with all the Nova Roman citizens who won't accept the title of Governor for the highest provincial authority. Why in English? And why not Propraetor, as it has been until now? And if there are good and sound reasons for not having Propraetors, then we must ask our experts (latinists, historians, etc.) to come with the proper title, in Latin.

Valete optime,


M•IVL•SEVERVS
PROPRÆTOR•PROVINCIƕMEXICO
VIAT•TR•PL•M•C•C
SCRIBA•CENSORIS•G•F•B•M
INTERPRETER
MVSÆVS•COLLEGII•ERATOVS•SODALITATIS•MVSARVM
SOCIVS•CHORI•MVSARVM

---------------------------------
Building a website is a piece of cake.
Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve, Marce Iuli!


1) The proper title for governors who are former praetors is PROPRAETOR.
2) The proper title for governors being former consuls is PROCONSUL.
3) The proper title for every others is LEGATUS PRO PRAETORE. After the word "LEGATUS" can be indicated the word which reflects his principal. For example:
a) LEGATUS REI PUBLICAE PRO PRAETORE.
b) Or LEGATUS SPQNR PRO PRAETORE.
c) Or, if we consider those provinces which don't have a praetorial or consular governor administratively united under the authority of a Propraetor or Proconsul of a near province: this person's title could be LEGATUS PROCONSULIS / PROPRAETORIS (e.g.) M. VINICII PRO PRAETORE.
(These three variants are acceptable in my view as Latinist and classicist, historical expert of Rome. The Senate can chose which likes most.)
4) A title can be for special cases such like Italy PRAEFECTUS.
5) A title can PRAETOR for a governor, if the person is elected by the Comitia Centuriata.
6) Governors who are elected praetors or consuls must be titled as PRAETOR or CONSUL.


Marcus Iulius Severus <marcusiuliusseverus@...> ha scritto: Salvete omnes,

I fully agree with all the Nova Roman citizens who won't accept the title of Governor for the highest provincial authority. Why in English? And why not Propraetor, as it has been until now? And if there are good and sound reasons for not having Propraetors, then we must ask our experts (latinists, historians, etc.) to come with the proper title, in Latin.

Valete optime,


M•IVL•SEVERVS




---------------------------------

---------------------------------
L'email della prossima generazione? Puoi averla con la nuova Yahoo! Mail

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Tiberio Galerio Paulino salutem dicit

Is this so difficult? Let the Senatores decide what is the best option.
The constitution already uses the term "Governor" and gives the senate the
ability to assign titles as it deems appropriate. I have no problem with
what Lentulus proposes below.

Vale:

Modianus

On 7/3/07, Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus <cn_corn_lent@...> wrote:
>
> Salve, Marce Iuli!
>
> 1) The proper title for governors who are former praetors is PROPRAETOR.
> 2) The proper title for governors being former consuls is PROCONSUL.
> 3) The proper title for every others is LEGATUS PRO PRAETORE. After the
> word "LEGATUS" can be indicated the word which reflects his principal. For
> example:
> a) LEGATUS REI PUBLICAE PRO PRAETORE.
> b) Or LEGATUS SPQNR PRO PRAETORE.
> c) Or, if we consider those provinces which don't have a praetorial or
> consular governor administratively united under the authority of a
> Propraetor or Proconsul of a near province: this person's title could be
> LEGATUS PROCONSULIS / PROPRAETORIS (e.g.) M. VINICII PRO PRAETORE.
> (These three variants are acceptable in my view as Latinist and
> classicist, historical expert of Rome. The Senate can chose which likes
> most.)
> 4) A title can be for special cases such like Italy PRAEFECTUS.
> 5) A title can PRAETOR for a governor, if the person is elected by the
> Comitia Centuriata.
> 6) Governors who are elected praetors or consuls must be titled as PRAETOR
> or CONSUL.
>
> Marcus Iulius Severus <marcusiuliusseverus@...<marcusiuliusseverus%40yahoo.com>>
> ha scritto: Salvete omnes,
>
> I fully agree with all the Nova Roman citizens who won't accept the title
> of Governor for the highest provincial authority. Why in English? And why
> not Propraetor, as it has been until now? And if there are good and sound
> reasons for not having Propraetors, then we must ask our experts (latinists,
> historians, etc.) to come with the proper title, in Latin.
>
> Valete optime,
>
> M�IVL�SEVERVS
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 7/3/2007 10:58:19 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
cn_corn_lent@... writes:




Salve, Marce Iuli!

1) The proper title for governors who are former praetors is PROPRAETOR.
2) The proper title for governors being former consuls is PROCONSUL.
3) The proper title for every others is LEGATUS PRO PRAETORE. After the word
"LEGATUS" can be indicated the word which reflects his principal. For example:
a) LEGATUS REI PUBLICAE PRO PRAETORE.
b) Or LEGATUS SPQNR PRO PRAETORE.





Salvete.

I concur. I wanted LPP from the very start when I joined NR. I settled for
pro praetore because it was pretty close. LPP would be the correct term.

Since the LPP draws his authority from the Senate and not the people, SPQR is
not needed.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

M. Hortensia Modiano Paulino Lentuloque spd:
first my thanks to Lentulus for his expert Latin help;
Gratias tibi ago amice! That's just what we needed.
Then, let's do it as Modianus,the Censor rightly puts it and
Q. Fabius Maximus, one of our first citizens in Nova Roma. This use
of 'governor' is embarrassing; & Pauline kindly listen to 'Vox
Romana' & soon you too can pronounce Latin.
bene valete in pacem deorum
M. Hortensia Maior
producer 'Vox Romana' podcast
website address is http://www.insulaumbra.com/voxromana/ . The
address for RSS syndication is
http://www.insulaumbra.com/voxromana/podcast.xml .

> Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Tiberio Galerio Paulino salutem dicit
>
> Is this so difficult? Let the Senatores decide what is the best

option.

> The constitution already uses the term "Governor" and gives the

senate the

> ability to assign titles as it deems appropriate. I have no

problem with

> what Lentulus proposes below.
>
> Vale:
>
> Modianus
>
> On 7/3/07, Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus <cn_corn_lent@...> wrote:
> >
> > Salve, Marce Iuli!
> >
> > 1) The proper title for governors who are former praetors is

PROPRAETOR.

> > 2) The proper title for governors being former consuls is

PROCONSUL.

> > 3) The proper title for every others is LEGATUS PRO PRAETORE.

After the

> > word "LEGATUS" can be indicated the word which reflects his

principal. For

> > example:
> > a) LEGATUS REI PUBLICAE PRO PRAETORE.
> > b) Or LEGATUS SPQNR PRO PRAETORE.
> > c) Or, if we consider those provinces which don't have a

praetorial or

> > consular governor administratively united under the authority of

a

> > Propraetor or Proconsul of a near province: this person's title

could be

> > LEGATUS PROCONSULIS / PROPRAETORIS (e.g.) M. VINICII PRO

PRAETORE.

> > (These three variants are acceptable in my view as Latinist and
> > classicist, historical expert of Rome. The Senate can chose

which likes

> > most.)
> > 4) A title can be for special cases such like Italy PRAEFECTUS.
> > 5) A title can PRAETOR for a governor, if the person is elected

by the

> > Comitia Centuriata.
> > 6) Governors who are elected praetors or consuls must be titled

as PRAETOR

> > or CONSUL.
> >
> > Marcus Iulius Severus

<marcusiuliusseverus@...<marcusiuliusseverus%40yahoo.com>>

> > ha scritto: Salvete omnes,
> >
> > I fully agree with all the Nova Roman citizens who won't accept

the title

> > of Governor for the highest provincial authority. Why in

English? And why

> > not Propraetor, as it has been until now? And if there are good

and sound

> > reasons for not having Propraetors, then we must ask our experts

(latinists,

> > historians, etc.) to come with the proper title, in Latin.
> >
> > Valete optime,
> >
> > M?IVL?SEVERVS
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Cn. Lentulus propr. Pannoniae Quiritibus s. p. d.:


I salute my fellow citizens from the current 3rd Reenactor Camp of Pannonia and the "Gladius" Association! The camp is fantastically great, we have 15 legionars who are mosty young boys and have paid to be able to participate in the camp, (besides them there are 7 Sarmata campers and 10 Germans from another association jointed to "Gladius"). They are being trained and drilled by me (I'm the centurio of the Legio XXI Rapax, the legion of the "Gladius" Association). Today I have taught the "Contra equites!", "Testudo!", "Orbis", "Ordo simplex!", "Ordo duplex!", and similar formations. There was a little battle today against the Sarmatas. There was two lectures this morning before the training and the battle about the history of the legions and about the Sarmatas who lived in this place in the Roman times.

PHOTOS OF THE FIRST AND SECOND DAY:

http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Provincia_Pannonia_%28Nova_Roma%29


I am still waiting for any guest to this camp from the near provinces, the camp for Nova Romans is free.



Curate ut valeatis!

Cn. Cornelius Lentulus
Propraetor Pannoniae
Rogator Novae Romae


---------------------------------

---------------------------------
L'email della prossima generazione? Puoi averla con la nuova Yahoo! Mail

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete Patres et Conscripti et Quirites!

The main proposal below is as a correct one as
far as I can find. I have never found any bases
to complicate things any more.

When we discussed this some time ago I mentioned
that I seem to remember that T. Corey Brennan
mentions this in his "The Praetorship in the
Roman Republic" vol. I. I think the title was
used before and during the First Punic War, of
course I could be wrong, but I really don't think
so.

Anyway The Roman had not enough Consuls and
Praetors during that period so they needed to
appoint others who could act in their place. They
sent Legati (emissaries) of the Senatus with the
same power as a Praetor ("pro praetore"). That is
"Emmissaries with praetorian power" or "Legati
pro praetore". Isn't that exactly what we want to
say?

I think that these guys also could be appointed
by Consuls and even proconsuls, but to be sure of
that one need to take a deep look into Brennan's
books. You know the Romans were a practical lot
and I don't think they needed a too complicated
structure of titles.

I don't think there is any reason to complicate
things by any added words to make it clear that
these guys are different from the legati that
acted under the "governors" order.

We would have "Legatus pro praetore" (a governor
who haven't been Praetori or Consules) and when a
governor want to appoint assistants he _may_
appoint "Legatus" (a "subgovernor" over a
regio/or what ever in a province). These two
titles don't need to be more complicated. I think
there is enough difference. As soon as we know
what they stand for I think they will be easy to
use and differentiate.

.........

>3) The proper title for every others is LEGATUS
>PRO PRAETORE. After the word "LEGATUS" can be
>indicated the word which reflects his principal.
>For example:
>a) LEGATUS REI PUBLICAE PRO PRAETORE.
>b) Or LEGATUS SPQNR PRO PRAETORE.

.......

>
> Valete optime,
>
>M•IVL•SEVERVS

--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus

Senator, Censorius et Consularis
Accensus LAF, Scribae Censoris GFBM
Praeses, Triumvir et Praescriptor Academia Thules ad S.R.A. et N.
Editor-in-Chief, Publisher and Owner of "Roman Times Quarterly"
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodie est ante diem IV Nonas Quinctilis; haec dies nefastus est.

"I believe myself to be right in suspecting that, even if Fortune and
Virtue are engaged in a direct and continual strife and discord with
each other, yet, at least for such a welding together of dominion and
power, it is likely that they suspended hostilities and joined forces;
and by joining forces they co-operated in completing this most
beautiful of human works. Even as Plato asserts that the entire
universe arose from fire and earth as the first and necessary
elements, that it might become visible and tangible, fearth
contributing to it weight and stability, and fire contributing colour,
form, and movement; but the medial elements, water and air, by
softening and quenching the dissimilarity of both extremes, united
them and brought about the composite nature of Matter through them; in
this way, then, in my opinion, did Time lay the foundation for the
Roman State and, with the help of God, so combine and join together
Fortune and Virtue that, by taking the peculiar qualities of each, he
might construct for all mankind a Hearth, in truth both holy and
beneficent, a steadfast cable, a principle abiding for ever, "an
anchorage from the swell and drift," as Democritus says, amid the
shifting conditions of human affairs. For even as the physicists
assert that the world was in ancient days not a world nor were the
atoms willing to coalesce and mix together and bestow a universal form
upon Nature, but, since the atoms, which were yet small and were being
borne hither and thither, kept eluding and escaping incorporation and
entanglement, and the larger, close-compacted atoms bwere already
engaging in terrific struggles and confusion among themselves, there
was pitching and tossing, and all things were full of destruction and
drift and wreckage until such time as the earth, by acquiring
magnitude from the union of the wandering atoms, somehow came to be
permanently abiding herself, and provided a permanent abode in herself
and round about herself for the other elements; even so, while the
mightiest powers and dominions among men were being driven about as
Fortune willed, and were continuing to collide one with another
because no one held the supreme power, but all wished to hold it, the
continuous movement, drift, and change of all peoples remained without
remedy, until such time as Rome acquired strength and growth, and had
attached to herself not only the nations and peoples within her own
borders, but also royal dominions of foreign peoples beyond the seas,
and thus the affairs of this vast empire gained stability and
security, since the supreme government, which never knew reverse, was
brought within an orderly and single cycle of peace; for though Virtue
in every form was inborn who contrived these things, yet great Good
Fortune was also joined therewith, as it will be possible to
demonstrate as the discourse proceeds." - Plutarch, "On the Fortune of
The Romans" II

Valete bene!

Cato



SOURCES

Plutarch

OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one
people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with
another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and
equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle
them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they
should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created
equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable
Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of
Happiness. -- That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted
among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the
governed, -- That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive
of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish
it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such
principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall
seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness...

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in
General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the
world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by the
Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and
declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free
and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to
the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and
the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and
that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War,
conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all
other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And
for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the
protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our
Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor." - Declaration of
Independence, issued by the Second Continental Congress on 4 July AD 1776

On this day the United States observes the celebration of its
independence from the British Crown.

On June 11, AD 1776, a committee consisting of John Adams of
Massachusetts, Benjamin Franklin of Pennsylvania, Thomas Jefferson of
Virginia, Robert R. Livingston of New York, and Roger Sherman of
Connecticut (the "Committee of Five"), was formed to draft a suitable
declaration to frame this resolution. The committee decided that
Jefferson would write the draft, which he showed to Franklin and
Adams, who made several minor corrections. Jefferson then produced
another copy incorporating these changes, and the committee presented
this copy to the Continental Congress on June 28, 1776.

"It ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance, by solemn acts
of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and
parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires, and
illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this
time forward forever more." - John Adams, in a letter to his wife Abigail

Independence was declared on July 2, 1776, pursuant to the "Lee
Resolution" presented to the Continental Congress by Richard Henry Lee
of Virginia on June 7, 1776, which read (in part): "Resolved: That
these United Colonies are, and of right ought to be, free and
independent States, that they are absolved from all allegiance to the
British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the
State of Great Britain is, and ought to be, totally dissolved."

The full Declaration was rewritten somewhat in general session prior
to its adoption by the Continental Congress on July 4, 1776, at the
Pennsylvania State House. Word of the declaration reached London on
August 10.

Because it is dated July 4, 1776, many people believe it was signed on
that date — but it was actually signed on August 2 by most of the
delegates. The Liberty Bell was not rung to celebrate independence,
but to call the local inhabitants to hear the reading of the document
on July 8 - it acquired its name during the years before the US Civil
War when it was rung to call together meetings of abolitionists in
Philadelphia.

In 1777, British officers noted the firing of 13 guns, once at morning
and again as evening fell, on July 4 in Bristol, Rhode Island.
Philadelphia celebrated the first anniversary in a manner a modern
American would find quite familiar: an official dinner for the
Continental Congress, toasts, 13-gun salutes, speeches, prayers,
music, parades, troop reviews and fireworks. Ships were decked with
red, white and blue bunting. In 1778, General George Washington
marked the Fourth with a double ration of rum for his soldiers and an
artillery salute. Across the sea, ambassadors John Adams and Benjamin
Franklin held a dinner for their fellow Americans in Paris, France.

Despite the genesis of Independence Day, it is largely uncommon for
Americans to express anti-British sentiment on the day or to view it
as a celebration of anti-colonialism. Indeed, most Americans today
consider the United Kingdom their greatest ally. Rather than
specifically as an opportunity to commemorate the end of British rule
in the 18th century, contemporary Americans generally perceive the
holiday as a celebration of the U.S. itself and the political values
that motivated the United States Declaration of Independence,
including explicit principles of life, liberty and the pursuit of
happiness, and implicit ones of democracy, liberty, freedom, and
equality under the law.

Valete bene - and Happy Fourth of July!

Cato



SOURCES

Declaration of Independence, David McCullough "John Adams", Wikipedia

Salvete omnes

Please, we must consider that the legal and specific latin term in the
Roman Law for provincial governor was "rector provinciae". (rector from
the latin regere)

The term pro-consule or pro-praetore depend only of the grade of
imperium of the single rector

The propraetor was someone who acted as if (pro) he were an official
magistrate. He had all the powers of a praetor, but was, in fact, a
former praetor whose term in office was prolonged (prorogatio). [please
note the term "in fact"].

The oldest known propraetor was in 241 BCE; the office became popular
after the war against Hannibal.

After the age of Sulla, all praetors were supposed to leave the city
after their year in office, and to rule a province as propraetor. From
then on, propraetor was a normal rank of the governor of a Roman
province.

The commanders of the Roman legions were called legatus legionis, and
could have propraetorian powers.


All the references that I found about Legati propraetorici are imperial,
the same for the term Praeses provinciae.

The emperor Augustus was, officially, governor of many provinces, which
he ruled through envoys, who were called legatus Augusti pro praetore.
They served typically thirty-six months.



Valete

M·CVRIATIVS·COMPLVTENSIS



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

SALVE LENTULE AMICE, ET SALVETE!

Great event. Congratulations. Send my friendly salute to all!

With all my desire, I can't arrive to you. I hope to do this next
year.

VALETE,
IVL SABINVS

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus
<cn_corn_lent@...> wrote:

> I salute my fellow citizens from the current 3rd Reenactor Camp of

Pannonia and the "Gladius" Association! The camp is fantastically
great, we have 15 legionars who are mosty young boys and have paid
to be able to participate in the camp, (besides them there are 7
Sarmata campers and 10 Germans from another association jointed
to "Gladius"). They are being trained and drilled by me (I'm the
centurio of the Legio XXI Rapax, the legion of the "Gladius"
Association). Today I have taught the "Contra
equites!", "Testudo!", "Orbis", "Ordo simplex!", "Ordo duplex!",
and similar formations. There was a little battle today against the
Sarmatas. There was two lectures this morning before the training
and the battle about the history of the legions and about the
Sarmatas who lived in this place in the Roman times.

> http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Provincia_Pannonia_%28Nova_Roma%29
> I am still waiting for any guest to this camp from the near

provinces, the camp for Nova Romans is free.

M. Hortensia Quiritibus spd;
I'm fowarding this from Latinitas where I am running for
Magister & co-moderator.
Now another person is running, which is excellent, Sentius
Leoninus, but my rebuttal to him hasn't been posted. All my posts
are either delayed or not posted at all.

It's been like this trying to force an election which was called
for in May, trying to run for office, and even making a positive
post that the script for 'Gladiator' is in Latin. Since Leoninus has
never read Martial or Catullus I said he was a poor candidate for
Magister and has been utterly uninvolved in the sodalitas.

& now this. That 'propriety' must be observed. This is not in our
charter. I hope we can have an open and free election over at our
Nova Roman sodalitas!
bene valete in pacem deorum.
M. Hortensia Maior
producer 'Vox Romana' podcast
website address is http://www.insulaumbra.com/voxromana/ .
The address for RSS syndication is
http://www.insulaumbra.com/voxromana/podcast.xml .

A. Tullia Scholastica sodalibus optimís suís S.P.D.

Suntne alií candidatí magistrátuí sodalitátis? Mox suffragia
regenda,
post illa Senatús Novae Romae. Nuperrimé á castrís (ut ita dícam)
Latinitátis vívae redií, in quibus multa dé linguá nostrá didicimus
inter
excursiónés in musea hortós zoologicósque, perlustratiónés in
montibus,
aliís talibus, né dícam in conclávibus scholaribus, linguam Latinam
vívam
constanter audientés loquentésque, sed hís in locís interrété sat
facilius
ut suffragia alia talia regam accedere inféliciter nón potuí; dé
hóc, nós
omnés participés falsí sumus. Nunc autem pergandumst.

Are there any other candidates for the post of magister of the
sodalitas? Elections must be held soon now that I have returned
from Latin
immersion, a wonderful experience I heartily recommend to all of our
members. For the post of magister, one must be a citizen of Nova
Roma,
preferably a full citizen (not a probationary one; a requirement for
all
official sodalitas offices). A reading knowledge of Latin and the
ability
and opportunity to perform outreach are also highly desirable, but
not
strictly required. For list moderation, it is, however, also
necessary to
have a sense of propriety sufficient to realize that some things are
inappropriate for minors, especially very young ones, and that
others are
offensive to sensible adults among us. Our lists are open to all,
and we
have no idea how young our members are; we have citizen applicants
who are
as young as 12, and existing citizens who are the children of adult
citizens
are even younger. A certain amount of caution is therefore
necessary in
order to keep within Yahoo Terms of Service if nothing else. One
must also
realize that vulgarity is not welcome to those among us who are
sensible;
this is not an all adolescent male list, or the locker room of some
sports
team, or the BA; it is an academic list on which we discuss
intellectual
matters suitable for all age groups and do not intentionally
denigrate any
segment of society.

Valéte.

--- End forwarded message ---

Salve Marca Hortensia,

I just approved your three pending posts. Please note that two of them were
dated 3 July and the other today. For some reason I didn't get the "pending
message needs approval" messages from Yahoo. In any case, I've sent them
through now.

Maior <rory12001@...> writes:

> M. Hortensia Quiritibus spd;
> I'm fowarding this from Latinitas where I am running for
> Magister & co-moderator.

For the sake of being crystal clear, I intend to vote against you and I will
ask everyone else there to vote against you too. Latinitas already has
problems with one moderator who lacks tact and judgement. It doesn't need
two.

That said, I do think you should be heard, so that people have the opportunity
to judge you on the basis of your own words. In the future if you post
something and don't see it approved that day, drop me a note.

Vale,

CN•EQVIT•MARINVS

Salvete

I must agree with this fine post. As one of my Latin
and Classics professors often said, "the Romans were
fond of nouns and loved to save the verb for last".

In terms of titles: we should be aware of the
distinctions between the name of an office, the name
of the power it had, and the authority of a person
(whether or not currently in that office, different
from its power -- and which may be greater or less
than the official power of the office) to begin with.

We should also note that Roman law was not codified
(that was done by us modern academicians) but was
historically organized (so, in one respect, the real
history of the Roman state is in its law -- not the
classics -- somewhat similar to the US government's
Federal Register recording chronologically the acts of
the federal government). Thus, titles often reflect a
history or career in ancient Rome.


--- "M. CVRIATIVS COMPLVTENSIS"
<complutensis@...> wrote:

>
> Salvete omnes
>
> Please, we must consider that the legal and specific
> latin term in the
> Roman Law for provincial governor was "rector
> provinciae". (rector from
> the latin regere)
>
> The term pro-consule or pro-praetore depend only of
> the grade of
> imperium of the single rector
>
> The propraetor was someone who acted as if (pro) he
> were an official
> magistrate. He had all the powers of a praetor, but
> was, in fact, a
> former praetor whose term in office was prolonged
> (prorogatio). [please
> note the term "in fact"].
>
> The oldest known propraetor was in 241 BCE; the
> office became popular
> after the war against Hannibal.
>
> After the age of Sulla, all praetors were supposed
> to leave the city
> after their year in office, and to rule a province
> as propraetor. From
> then on, propraetor was a normal rank of the
> governor of a Roman
> province.
>
> The commanders of the Roman legions were called
> legatus legionis, and
> could have propraetorian powers.
>
>
> All the references that I found about Legati
> propraetorici are imperial,
> the same for the term Praeses provinciae.
>
> The emperor Augustus was, officially, governor of
> many provinces, which
> he ruled through envoys, who were called legatus
> Augusti pro praetore.
> They served typically thirty-six months.
>
>
>
> Valete
>
> M·CVRIATIVS·COMPLVTENSIS
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>

A. Sempronius Regulus

America Austrorientalis


Vincit qui se vincit. - Seneca
Vivere disce, cogita mori. - Cicero
Ubi spiritus est cantus est. - Sempronius Atratinus

ANNI MMDCCLX AVC (anno urbis conditae - a.u.c.)






____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss an email again!
Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/

M. Hortensia Gn. Equitio Marino spd;
many thanks, if it hasn't been deleted there should also be a
rebuttal to Leoninus. For some reason he mentions that I dropped out
of my sermo I class.

My messages shouldn't need approval as I have never been charged
or told in any way that I committed an offense!
just bloody trying to get our sodality going.
bene vale
Maior

> Salve Marca Hortensia,
>
> I just approved your three pending posts. Please note that two of

them were

> dated 3 July and the other today. For some reason I didn't get

the "pending

> message needs approval" messages from Yahoo. In any case, I've

sent them

> through now.
>
> Maior <rory12001@...> writes:
>
> > M. Hortensia Quiritibus spd;
> > I'm fowarding this from Latinitas where I am running for
> > Magister & co-moderator.
>
> For the sake of being crystal clear, I intend to vote against you

and I will

> ask everyone else there to vote against you too. Latinitas

already has

> problems with one moderator who lacks tact and judgement. It

doesn't need

> two.
>
> That said, I do think you should be heard, so that people have the

opportunity

> to judge you on the basis of your own words. In the future if you

post

> something and don't see it approved that day, drop me a note.
>
> Vale,
>
> CN•EQVIT•MARINVS
>

Salve Marca Hortensia,

Maior <rory12001@...> writes:
[...]

> My messages shouldn't need approval

You were placed on moderation due to your responses in Latinitas to the matter
involving "Gaudeamus igitur - striptease version" post by Johannes Patruus.
The decision was made by A. Tullia Scholastica, the elected head of the
Sodalitas. You'll have to appeal the decision to her. There is no other
appeal.

I am a moderator of Latinitas, but I'm not the head of the society. She's the
one who decided you need to be moderated. She's the only one who's going to
take you off moderation.

Vale,

CN•EQVIT•MARINVS

Salve Marine;
well Scholastica never informed me I was placed on moderation. I've
never had a word about this nor how long it will last.

Why do you think I'm running for co-magister of the sodalitas? We
have to have some kind of reasonable rule of law, obeying the
charter. Not a totalitarian situation.

It's taken about 2 weeks & a letter to Cordus to get my candidacy
posted, a few were just plain deleted, much less elections. That's
not right, it's not ethical.
bene vale
M. Hortensia Maior



Now my reply to

>
> You were placed on moderation due to your responses in Latinitas

to the matter

> involving "Gaudeamus igitur - striptease version" post by Johannes

Patruus.

> The decision was made by A. Tullia Scholastica, the elected head

of the

> Sodalitas. You'll have to appeal the decision to her. There is

no other

> appeal.
>
> I am a moderator of Latinitas, but I'm not the head of the

society. She's the

> one who decided you need to be moderated. She's the only one

who's going to

> take you off moderation.
>
> Vale,
>
> CN•EQVIT•MARINVS
>

Salve Gnaeus Marinus et salvete Patres et Conscripti!

>'I've asked Caeso Fabius to provide a citation from Brennan on this matter. I
>suspect you're refering to the same thing. Since this is a matter of
>scholarly disagreement, I think citations and references are appropriate in
>helping us to determine the best course.

I have tried to meet your expectations. ;-)

This was what I said;

At 23.23 +0200 07-07-03, Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus wrote:

>When we discussed this some time ago I mentioned
>that I seem to remember that T. Corey Brennan
>mentions this in his "The Praetorship in the
>Roman Republic" vol. I. I think the title was
>used before and during the First Punic War, of
>course I could be wrong, but I really don't think
>so.
>
>Anyway The Roman had not enough Consuls and
>Praetors during that period so they needed to
>appoint others who could act in their place. They
>sent Legati (emissaries) of the Senatus with the
>same power as a Praetor ("pro praetore"). That is
>"Emmissaries with praetorian power" or "Legati
>pro praetore". Isn't that exactly what we want to
>say?
>
>I think that these guys also could be appointed
>by Consuls and even proconsuls, but to be sure of
>that one need to take a deep look into Brennan's
>books. You know the Romans were a practical lot
>and I don't think they needed a too complicated
>structure of titles.
>
>I don't think there is any reason to complicate
>things by any added words to make it clear that
>these guys are different from the legati that
>acted under the "governors" order.
>
>We would have "Legatus pro praetore" (a governor
>who haven't been Praetori or Consules) and when a
>governor want to appoint assistants he _may_
>appoint "Legatus" (a "subgovernor" over a
>regio/or what ever in a province). These two
>titles don't need to be more complicated. I think
>there is enough difference. As soon as we know
>what they stand for I think they will be easy to
>use and differentiate.

First of all let me state that it has been a long time since I made
anything that even resemble a real academic and scientific analyze,
even though I still consider myself a historian and certainly has the
education, although long ago. I really hope that the quality of the
analyzes below is not too low and I have to say that I am very aware
of the weaknesses (except the fact that English isn't my native
language) of my text. Any mistakes are my own and Brennan is in no
way to blame.

It was a very long time since I read these volumes and I certainly
wish that I had time to analyze them more deeply, as I really would
have to do so to get a more well based grip of these complicated
issues, especially as Brennan's volumes really are about the
development of the Praetorship and not the institution of the Legati.
Still I have done my best in the short time I have to assign to this
task.

I also have to comment my statement that the "legati propraetori"
were a thing of the "First Punic War". Even though I made a mistake
as I meant the "Second Punic War", this "short" analyze shows that
the title started its development even earlier with at least the
Third Samnite War and continued throughout the Late Republic.

As far as I see it, our governors "exactly" are the "privati cum
imperium" (private nonmagistrates with the power of imperium) that
Brennan continue to talk about. So this should gives us some right to
use them as a model for our Republic, at least I think so.

Now I have taken a "short" look at these to huge volumes and this is
what I can provide:

Important privati were already given praetorian imperium during the
Third Samnite War: "Privati (of consular rank) received special
grants of praetorian imperium to meet emergencies." (Brennan vol. I
page 76)

Later Brennan mentions that evidence of delegation of imperium is
found for the first time during the crisis of 295.

An interesting note is found (there is always a danger to expand into
only slightly related areas in these volumes. ;-) ) here: "The idea
of governing overseas provinces (at this time!) through legati (under
order of a Praetor, comment by Caeso Buteo) , and the growing
practise of retaining the Sardinian Praetor for legal chores, is
quite interesting, perhaps (as suggested in 5.32.) even providing a
precedent for C. Calpurius Piso (cos. 67) and Cn. Pompeius Magnus
(cos II 55), who used legati to govern their consular provinciae."

About extension of imperium he also says: "Despite the lack of
detailed evidence, it is worth asking how the Senate gained this
right, since it represents a a quite significant aggrandizement of
power at the expense of the People". (Brennan vol. 1 page 188). So
the People have had the right to at least extend the power of
imperium.

But he also continue to tells us about this possibility to give power
to a non-magistrate, that is by delegation: "In 217, after the battle
of Trasimene, the consul Cn. Servilius Geminus delegated praetorian
imperium to a nonmagistrate, C. Centenius ..." (Brennan vol. 1 page
193). He has then already called C. Centenius "a privatus with
imperium". Later Brenan says that only Consuls seemed to be able to
delegate praetorian imperium, that is Praetores couldn't do it.
Further in "Additional Notes I "Personal Delegation of Imperium in
the Period 218 - 166" (Brennan vol. II page 640) he elaborates on
this theme and it is shows to be both complicated and many layered
(among other things the implications of imperium maior and imperium
minus).

"All subsequent praetorian commands held by privati in our record are
defensive in nature. The Senate seems to have identified certain
tasks that needed imperium but not much fighting experience, and then
given those to non-magistrates" (Brennan vol. 1, page 194)

"Grants of praetorian imperium to nonmagistrates virtually disappears
after the Second Punic War, at least down to 166." (Brennan vol. 1
page 195)

Brennan then continues to state that it was the emergency of the
Second Punic War that forced the Senate to appoint non-magistrates to
positions "pro praetore" with imperium minus (as he stated before).
After that war the number of Praetores was increased and the habit of
proroguement was institutionalized to solve the problem with too few
provincial administrators.

When its comes to the title of "Legatus" for a provincial (the term
"province" also would need to be expanded upon much more)
administrator appointed by the Senate, we find the following:"The
Senate may have planned for a legate to administer affairs in Gaul;
at the very time of these provincial arrangements Eturia was held by
the legatus C. Sempronius Blaesus. In some cases (Marius, Caepio,
perhaps Sulla), the Senate saw fit to raise their ranks to "pro
consule" to compensate for consuls who had fallen in the war."
(Brennan vol. 1 page 196) And then he continues to talk about another
Legatus appointed by a Consul.

The whole business of the provincial administration and Roman
"constitution" was a question of intense and "experimental"
development and at "last" Brennan says: "The senate (I would suggest)
appointed C. Marius, Q. Serviuius Caepio, Cn. Pompeius Strabo, L.
Cornelius Sulla, and doubtless some others "legati pro praetore"
(markings by Caeso Buteo), with imperium officially conferred
throughout their tenure. 237) In some cases (Marius, Caepio, perhaps
Sulla), the Senate saw fit to raise the their rank to "pro consule"
to compensate for consuls fallen in the war." (Brennan vol. II page
385)

The note 237) also says: "At least in the late Republic, a privatus
who had received from the Senate the status of "legatus pro praetore"
(marking by Caeso Buteo) was supposed to have less than six lictors
(ch. 2 n. 157). The idea (surely) was to prevent conflict with actual
praetors in office." (Brennan vol. II page 782)

Conclusion
To go directly to our main question; if there is a historical base to
use the title "legatus pro praetore" for a privatus and
nonmagistratus in his capacity as a governor or provincial
administrator? My answer must be that I think I have shown, at least
to some extent, that we have "some" bases in the history of the
Republic to do so.

Still the development of this issue is very complicated, but the view
of the Romans as a practical people who made and erased institutions
as they needed them becomes even clearer in this study. As a result
of that conclusion I think we may "proudly" ;-) continue this
practice in the case of the "legati pro praetori" as we live in
special times and circumstances were the title may "serve" us well.
--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus

Senator, Censorius et Consularis
Accensus LAF, Scribae Censoris GFBM
Praeses, Triumvir et Praescriptor Academia Thules ad S.R.A. et N.
Editor-in-Chief, Publisher and Owner of "Roman Times Quarterly"
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

>
> A. Tullia Scholastica quiritibus bonae voluntatis S.P.D.

I see that Hortensia has once again taken her complaints about
sodality business to the Main List, which is not concerned with such matters
and where such issues do not belong. As is clearly stated in the Latin
portion of the post forwarded below, I have been away for an extended period
in an wonderful intensive Latin immersion course, and had net access only
via a public computer, not my own, as we had been led to believe would be
the case. This meant that I had limited access to the list management,
which depends on access via one¹s own computer. Secondly, I wouldn¹t gripe
about posts that are only a day old, and that, too, during a major holiday
period, not being posted immediately. Just possibly someone, including the
moderator, might be away, or entertaining guests, a truly odd situation
quite unfamiliar to this candidate. Hortensia still hasn¹t gotten the
message that some of us have other things to do, that Yahoo notices do not
always arrive, and that sodality business does not belong on the ML.

As for Leoninus, Hortensia, it does not make tuppence ha¹penny whether
he or anyone else has read Martial or Catullus or seen Debbie Does Dallas
(or, for that matter, The Passion of the Christ) in order to be able to
moderate a sodalitas mailing list, nor does it matter how active he has been
in your opinion. He has done plenty behind the scenes, formatting every
lesson of the Assimil text for Avitus and his exacting standards, never
complaining when his first attempts did not suit Avitus, and doing a fine
job out of sight, known only to me and the other Assimil translators. Of
course, if you, Hortensia, had not backed out of your translation
assignment, you, too, would know what a difficult task this is, and how well
Leoninus has done, for he would have sent you a copy of your work formatted
according to Avitus¹ requirements. If you were less self-centered, you
would also realize that shockingly, not everyone shares your interests in
pornography, and not everyone thinks that what is suitable on the BA list is
acceptable on open lists with children and adolescents of unknown ages, with
peregrini and socii and others just popping in to check up on NR or Latin.
The first requirement of a list moderator is a sense of propriety, which you
lack. Note, too, that the election was not called in May; the first call
for candidates was issued around that time, but there were no takers; after
all, that is a bad time for students and teachers. You subsequently thrust
yourself forward because you object to having any control on anything
whatsoever and because you seek attention...a bad combination, and one
wholly unsuitable for list moderator. If you can¹t figure out that content
perfectly acceptable on the BA may not be appropriate for open lists, you,
Hortensia, certainly don¹t belong in any position which would allow you to
approve posts containing f-words and graphic sexual descriptions, etc. for
any open lists. Those things may well be acceptable on the BA, and even in
magisterial cohortes, where everyone is an adult, but they do not belong on
open lists, and someone who is so obtuse that he or she cannot see that does
not belong in the chair of a list moderator...even though there is very
little moderation on Latinitas, since most of those who post are sensible,
and don¹t require moderation. You, however, lack any element of
self-control, and as such, it must be imposed on you, as is amply evidenced
by your penchant for hauling sodalitas business over to the ML, inter alia.
Adults control themselves, their tempers, and their urges, etc. When and if
you grow up, however belatedly, you may achieve that mastery. Until then,
you are an adolescent, and subject to external control.

Valete.

>
>
> M. Hortensia Quiritibus spd;
> I'm fowarding this from Latinitas where I am running for
> Magister & co-moderator.
> Now another person is running, which is excellent, Sentius
> Leoninus, but my rebuttal to him hasn't been posted. All my posts
> are either delayed or not posted at all.
>
> It's been like this trying to force an election which was called
> for in May, trying to run for office, and even making a positive
> post that the script for 'Gladiator' is in Latin. Since Leoninus has
> never read Martial or Catullus I said he was a poor candidate for
> Magister and has been utterly uninvolved in the sodalitas.
>
> & now this. That 'propriety' must be observed. This is not in our
> charter. I hope we can have an open and free election over at our
> Nova Roman sodalitas!
> bene valete in pacem deorum.
> M. Hortensia Maior
> producer 'Vox Romana' podcast
> website address is http://www.insulaumbra.com/voxromana/ .
> The address for RSS syndication is
> http://www.insulaumbra.com/voxromana/podcast.xml .
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica sodalibus optimís suís S.P.D.
>
> Suntne alií candidatí magistrátuí sodalitátis? Mox suffragia
> regenda,
> post illa Senatús Novae Romae. Nuperrimé á castrís (ut ita dícam)
> Latinitátis vívae redií, in quibus multa dé linguá nostrá didicimus
> inter
> excursiónés in musea hortós zoologicósque, perlustratiónés in
> montibus,
> aliís talibus, né dícam in conclávibus scholaribus, linguam Latinam
> vívam
> constanter audientés loquentésque, sed hís in locís interrété sat
> facilius
> ut suffragia alia talia regam accedere inféliciter nón potuí; dé
> hóc, nós
> omnés participés falsí sumus. Nunc autem pergandumst.
>
> Are there any other candidates for the post of magister of the
> sodalitas? Elections must be held soon now that I have returned
> from Latin
> immersion, a wonderful experience I heartily recommend to all of our
> members. For the post of magister, one must be a citizen of Nova
> Roma,
> preferably a full citizen (not a probationary one; a requirement for
> all
> official sodalitas offices). A reading knowledge of Latin and the
> ability
> and opportunity to perform outreach are also highly desirable, but
> not
> strictly required. For list moderation, it is, however, also
> necessary to
> have a sense of propriety sufficient to realize that some things are
> inappropriate for minors, especially very young ones, and that
> others are
> offensive to sensible adults among us. Our lists are open to all,
> and we
> have no idea how young our members are; we have citizen applicants
> who are
> as young as 12, and existing citizens who are the children of adult
> citizens
> are even younger. A certain amount of caution is therefore
> necessary in
> order to keep within Yahoo Terms of Service if nothing else. One
> must also
> realize that vulgarity is not welcome to those among us who are
> sensible;
> this is not an all adolescent male list, or the locker room of some
> sports
> team, or the BA; it is an academic list on which we discuss
> intellectual
> matters suitable for all age groups and do not intentionally
> denigrate any
> segment of society.
>
> Valéte.
>
> --- End forwarded message ---
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

M. Hortensia Scholasticae quiritibusque spd;
I've waded throught the vituperative below. It seems I'm a
pornographer, because I think a bunch of girls in patent leather
singing 'Gaudeamus Igitur' is funny!
\
1. But there is absolutely no excuse not to inform a person that she
or he is moderated and the the reason & the duration.

2. There is no excuse not to post a person's candidacy. You weren't
away then I had to get a hold of Cordus and there is still no date for
elections.

3. Finally Sodalitas Latinitas is a Nova Roman sodality, it's
business & anthing else anyone wants to say belongs in the forum!
There is nothing in the charter that says it is a secret society. I've
appended it here for everyone to read.

4. Finally, I've managed a podcast for a year & done fine things for
Latin; school children listen to it!. You are the only one who
constantly brings up pornography, the F-word, or any other kind of
indecency. The only porn is in your own mind.
bene valete in pacem deorum
M. Hortensia Maior


REGULA SODALITATIS LATINITATIS

[THE CHARTER OF THE SODALITAS LATINITATIS]


Condita est Sodalitas Latinitatis pridie Kalendas Quintiles Q. Fabio
Maximo M. Minucio Audente consulibus a M. Apollonio Formosano C. Mario
Merullo C. Cordio Symmacho A. Ario Dracone ex auctoritate Senatus.

[The sodalitas Latinitatis was founded on the authority of the senate
on prid. Kal. Quint. in the consulate of Q. Fabius Maximus and M.
Minucius Audens by M. Apollonius Formosanus, C. Marius Merullus, C.
Cordius Symmachus, and A. Arius Draco.]


I. Proposita et Officia

[I. Purpose and functions]


A. Est Sodalitas Latinitatis linguae Latinae studio usuique Novae
Romae fovendo quae linguae Latinae usum efficiat ut praecipua Novae
Romae lingua sit.

[A. The sodalitas Latinitatis exists to promote the study and use of
Latin in Nova Roma, and thus ultimately to bring about the use of
Latin as the primary language of Nova Roma.]

B. Cuius rei causa Sodalitas:

[B. To further this goal the sodalitas shall:]

i. Praebeto forum colloquiis tum Latinis cum de lingua Latina ipsa.

[i.Provide a forum for conversation in and about Latin.]

ii. Adiuvato sodalium animos adhortatorque sodales ut Latinitatem suam
excolant.

[ii. Assist and encourage members of the sodalitas to improve their
Latin.]

iii. Esto auxilio de lingua Latina magistratibus partibusque legitimis
Novae Romae.

[iii. Offer assistance with Latin to the magistrates and
constitutional organs of Nova Roma.]

iv. Fingito et curato consilia quae proposita sodalitatis adiuvent.

[iv. Create and manage projects to further the goal of the sodalitas.]

v. Praebeto locum in quo Nova Roma aliique linguam Latinam adhibentes,
Latinistae, discipulique linguae Latinae inter se conveniant.

[v. Offer a point of contact between Nova Roma and other users,
scholars, and students of Latin.]

C. Consilium (vide VI infra) curato ut haec munera perficiantur.

[C. The consilium (see VI) shall see to it that these functions are
performed.]


II. Consociatio Decuriaeque

[II. Membership and decuriae]


A. Consociatio sodalitatis omnibus gratuita esto.

[A. Membership of the sodalitas shall be free and open to all.]

B. Modus consociationis acquirendae praescriptis (vide III)
explicabitur.

[B. The means by which membership may be acquired shall be detailed in
the praescripta (see III).]

C. Sodales in numerum imparem decuriarum pro norma Latinitatis suae
dividentur; numerus et natura decuriarum praescriptis explicabitur.

[C. Members shall be divided into an odd number of decuriae according
to the standard of their Latinity; the number and nature of the
decuriae shall be detailed in the praescripta.]


III. Suffragia totius sodalitatis

[III. Votes of the whole sodalitas]


A. Magistris promulgantibus, haec regula emendetur suffragiis totius
sodalitatis, praescripta regulae supplementa formentur, proposita
sodalitatis metis servienda constituantur.

[A. By a vote of the whole sodalitas on the motion of the magistri
this charter may be amended, praescripta supplementary to the charter
may be created, and projects to further the goal of the sodalitas may
be set up or terminated.]

B. Esto sodalibus facultas propositi alicuius disserendi dummodo
suffragia nondum lata sint.

[B. The members shall be given an opportunity to discuss any proposal
before voting shall begin.]

C. Esto unicuique sodali unum suffragium tantum proposito unicuique;
valeto aeque quidque suffragium.

[C. Each member shall have only one vote on each proposal, and each
vote shall have equal value.]


IV. Magistri


A. Quotannis sodalitas duos sodales qui cives Novi Romani sint
magistros (f. magistras) creato.

[A. The sodalitas shall elect each year two of its members who are
also Nova Roman citizens to serve as magistri (feminine 'magistrae').]

B. Magistri (magistrae) Idibus Martiis ad honores ascendunto, et ab
eis pridie Idus Martias anni posteri discedunto.

[B. The magistri shall take office on Id. Mar. and shall leave office
on prid. Id. Mar. following.]

C. Modus magistrorum creandorum praescriptis enarrator.

[C. The mechanism by which the magistri shall be elected shall be
detailed in the praescripta.]

D. Eis cura summa administratio sodalitatis esto.

[D. They shall be responsible for the general administration of the
sodalitas.]

E. Exemplar novissimum huius regulae omniumque praescriptorum
conservanto.

[E. They shall maintain an up-to-date copy of this charter and of all
the praescripta of the sodalitas.]

F. Esto in potestate eorum ut proposita suffragiis ferendis totius
sodalitatis ferant, fora publica sodalitatis moderent, et pro
sodalitate cum partibus legitimis Novae Romae aliisque extraneis cum
hominibus tum gregibus agant.

[F. They shall have the power to put proposals to the vote of the
whole sodalitas, to moderate the official fora of the sodalitas, and
to act on behalf of the sodalitas in relations with the constitutional
organs of Nova Roma and other outside persons and groups.]

G. Potestates suas coniunctim exercento.

[G. They shall exercise their powers collegially.]

H. Munera inter se arbitrio suo dividant.

[H. They may divide their duties between themselves at their
discretion.]


V. Decuriones


A. Quotannis unaquisque decuria unum sodalium suorum decurionem qui
civis Novus Romanus est ut ei serviat creato.

[A. Each decuria shall elect each year one of its members who is also
a Nova Roman citizen to serve as its decurio.]

B. Decuriones Idibus Martiis ad honores ascendunto, et ab eis pridie
Idus Martias anni posteri discedunto.

[B. The decuriones shall take office on Id. Mar. and shall leave
office on prid. Id. Mar. following.]

C. Modus decurionum creandorum praescriptis enarrator.

[C. The mechanism by which the decuriones shall be elected shall be
detailed in the praescripta.]

D. Praestato unusquisque decurionum ut indicem sodalium decurionis
suae conservet.

[D. Each decurio shall be responsible for maintaining a list of the
members of his or her decuria.]

E. Praestato unusquisque decurionum ut bona decuriae suae in tota
sodalitate proponat.

[E. Each decurio shall be responsible for representing the interests
of his or her decuria in the sodalitas as whole.]

F. Praestato unusquisque decurionum ut sodalibus decurionis suae
auxilio sit eosque hortator.

[F. Each decurio shall be responsible for giving particular assistance
and encouragement to members of his or her decuria.]

G. Si ambo magistri non in promptu sint, aut non possint, aut
muneribus eiurent abscedantve, magistrorum munera potestatesque
decurioni decuriae primae tradantur; si ille in promptu non sit, aut
non possit, aut munere eiuret abscedatve, decurioni decuriae alterae,
etc., tradantur, qui quam primum ordinet suffragia ut magistros
restituat.

[G. In the event of the unavailability, incapacity, or resignation of
both magistri, the responsibilities and powers of the magistri shall
pass to the decurio of the first decuria (or, in the case of his or
her unavailability, incapacity, or resignation, to the decurio of the
second decuria, and so on), who shall as quickly as possible organize
elections to replace the magistri.]


VI. Consilium


A. Magistri decurionesque coniunctim consilium sunto.

[A. The magistri and the decuriones shall together form a consilium.]

B. Praestato consilium curam propositorum metis sodalitatis
serviendorum probatorumque suffragiis totius sodalitatis.

[B. The consilium shall be responsible for the running of such
projects to further the goals of the sodalitas as shall have been
approved by a vote of the whole sodalitas.]

C. Esto consilio potestas magistratuum ad tempus cooptandorum ut
muneribus subtiliter enumeratis spatium constitutum dumtaxat sexaginta
(LX) dierum fungantur.

[C. The consilium shall have the power to appoint temporary officers
to perform specified tasks for a specified term of office not to
exceed sixty days.]


Appendix: Conditores

> , you
> would also realize that shockingly, not everyone shares your

interests in

> pornography,

and someone who is so obtuse that he or she cannot see that does

> not belong in the chair of a list moderator...even though there is

very

> little moderation on Latinitas,

You, however, lack any element of

> self-control, and as such, it must be imposed on you, as is amply

evidenced

> by your penchant for hauling sodalitas business over to the ML, >

you are an adolescent, and subject to external control.

>
>

Salve Lentule;
fantastic, please send a big AVE to the Pannoni! I do
admire the wonderful drape of your toga. Would you like to do a
piece for 'Vox Romana' on the Legio? How you joined, what it's like
to be a re-enactor. There are so many all over the world. I think
everyone would love it.
I think I have Sarmation blood too;-)
j Maior

> SALVE LENTULE AMICE, ET SALVETE!
>
> Great event. Congratulations. Send my friendly salute to all!
>
> With all my desire, I can't arrive to you. I hope to do this next
> year.
>
> VALETE,
> IVL SABINVS
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus
> <cn_corn_lent@> wrote:
> > I salute my fellow citizens from the current 3rd Reenactor Camp

of

> Pannonia and the "Gladius" Association! The camp is fantastically
> great, we have 15 legionars who are mosty young boys and have

paid

> to be able to participate in the camp, (besides them there are 7
> Sarmata campers and 10 Germans from another association jointed
> to "Gladius"). They are being trained and drilled by me (I'm the
> centurio of the Legio XXI Rapax, the legion of the "Gladius"
> Association). Today I have taught the "Contra
> equites!", "Testudo!", "Orbis", "Ordo simplex!", "Ordo duplex!",
> and similar formations. There was a little battle today against

the

> Sarmatas. There was two lectures this morning before the training
> and the battle about the history of the legions and about the
> Sarmatas who lived in this place in the Roman times.
> > http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Provincia_Pannonia_%28Nova_Roma%29
> > I am still waiting for any guest to this camp from the near
> provinces, the camp for Nova Romans is free.
>

Salve Aula Tullia,

"A. Tullia Scholastica" <fororom@...> writes:

[A lot, most of which I've deleted]

> Adults control themselves, their tempers, and their urges, etc.

You'd do well to take your own advice, Praetrix.

> When and if
> you grow up, however belatedly, you may achieve that mastery. Until then,
> you are an adolescent, and subject to external control.

You, madam, are overstepping your auctoritas. It is not within your imperium
to determine who is and is not an adult. I'm sorry to have to inform you
that as far as I'm concerned, you and Hortensia are opposite sides of the
same coin. You are both shrill and given to irrational excess. She errs too
far on the side of license, and you too far on the side of censure. You both
lack sense.


CN•EQVIT•MARINVS

-M. Hortensia quiritibus spd;
look at part of this post from Latinitas:

ATS: "BS again. Someone who runs away from every Latin class, who
ran away from a translation assignment for Assimil, who does not
know a past participle from a supine and no doubt cannot really read
Latin is utterly unqualified for this post even without other issues
which make Hortensia unsuitable. Leoninus works quietly, behind the
scenes, never complaining when Avitus wanted him to do everything
over when the first attempt did not suit. He works steadily, and
does not seek attention, as you, Hortensia, do. Moreover, he is an
excellent Latin student, devoted to Latin...who does NOT run away
from his responsibilities or from his class work, though he is
working full time."

Now I cannot reply to this at Latinitas & defend my reputation. As
Regulus & Agricola pointed out to discuss a student's record
publically is shameful & unethical.

I've graduated from Sermo I & if anyone really wants to know I had
to drop out due to moving from Ireland to America & later as I was
taking graduate courses, and German & Latin were too difficult at
the same time. This summer I'm enrolled in a Latin Class & I'll take
Sermo II this fall.

No one should ever be ashamed for trying! This type of public
behavior does not encourage anyone to take Latin.
Maior

-- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@...>
wrote:

>
> Salve Aula Tullia,
>
> "A. Tullia Scholastica" <fororom@...> writes:
>
> [A lot, most of which I've deleted]
> > Adults control themselves, their tempers, and their urges, etc.
>
> You'd do well to take your own advice, Praetrix.
>
> > When and if
> > you grow up, however belatedly, you may achieve that mastery.

Until then,

> > you are an adolescent, and subject to external control.
>
> You, madam, are overstepping your auctoritas. It is not within

your imperium

> to determine who is and is not an adult. I'm sorry to have to

inform you

> that as far as I'm concerned, you and Hortensia are opposite sides

of the

> same coin. You are both shrill and given to irrational excess.

She errs too

> far on the side of license, and you too far on the side of

censure. You both

> lack sense.
>
>
> CN•EQVIT•MARINVS
>

Agricola Iuliano sal.

I agree that organizing a major event would be very difficult. We can,
however, meet less formally and do other useful things.

Several of us live in Japan, and Korea is not that for away. I hope
that if any of us has occasion to travel that an informal visit could
be set up. Also, museum shows often travel through the area, and it is
good to keep each other informed of things like this.

We have an UNofficial mailing list at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prov_asia_orientalis/ , anyone in asia
orientalis is welcome to join.

optime vale!


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Titus Aurelius Iulianus
<titusaurelius@...> wrote:

>
>
> Thanks for the reply, I live in Corea Australis, i'm surprised

there is no one living in Seres (China).

>
> It will be difficult to organise a Conventum in our province...
>
>
> "M. Lucretius Agricola" <wm_hogue@...> escribió:
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "titusaurelius"

<titusaurelius@>

> wrote:
> >
> > Salutem Pluribum:
> >
> > I hope is not a too high request for an applicant citizen. How many
> > citizens are from the Asia Orientalis province??
> >
>
> I am one. Is there anything I can do for you?
>
> Optime vale
>
> M. Lucretius Agricola
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
> ¡Descubre una nueva forma de obtener respuestas a tus preguntas!
> Entra en Yahoo! Respuestas.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Salvete omnes!
Though I have passed the citizenship test my probationary period is
not over yet. I have already introduced myself to the Novaroman list,
but I have only been lurking on this list and I was going to wait
with the introduction until I was confirmed as a citizen.

I'm a 40 years old italian woman living in Budapest. My civil name is
Livia Cases and my roman name Lucia Livia Plauta. Like many Italians,
I studied Latin and ancient Greek at high school, but of course my
knowledge is quite rusty after all these years.
I have always been interested in history and archeology, and lately
I've started collecting roman fibulas. My long term goal is to make
faithful reproductions of ancient roman and greek clothes.
I've already met the Propraetor Pannoniae and tomorrow I'm going to
the roman reenactor camp for one day.

What prompted me to anticipate my introduction is the whole mail
exchange regarding the Latinitas list.
I'm very glad those emails have been posted to this list, because
they're very instructive: they gave me an insight at some of the life
going on here.

As a newbye I got the impression that the Latinitas list is ruled by
a tyrant whose fundamentalist prudeness makes her see a menace even
in the mere mention of nudity.
In my opinion nothing could be further from the spirit of latinity
than this kind of attitude. Or did nobody notice the abundance of
phallic representations and erotic statues in classical roman
art? (Huh, now am I going to be censored because I said "phallic" and
"erotic"? Gonna censor Ovid as well?)
The argument about protecting young people is obviously just an
excuse: first - I don't think loads of 16-year olds are going to read
a mailing list about the latin language hoping to find "hot"
contents. Second: even if they did, what was posted was no different
from what can be normally seen on a beach.
Furthermore nothing could justify public ironic insults against other
Novaromans and the unauthorized publishing of confidential personal
details.

You people have to realize that this gives a bad, bad impression.
Fortunately I also noticed that the people who are unable to debate
civilly are only a very small minority in Nova Roma.

One thing is sure: if I ever feel the need to brush up my Latin I
will never join the Latinitas sodality or use any of the facilities
provided by Nova Roma. I've been scared off that forever.
Instead I will turn to Cn. Cornelius Lentulus, who's a good latin
scholar, and furthermore a civilized person with whom discussions can
be conducted in a civil manner, regardless of differences of opinions.

Optime valete!
L. Livia Plauta

Hi,


as you know, I'm trying to make a list of the Roman monuments scattered in
what once was the Roman Empire(Signa Romanorum Project). After some months
I'm now able to make a list of bath houses and nymphaeums. This list
includes the Roman baths and nymphaeums which have still a complete vault.


Here the list:


01 - Aci Sant'Antonio (ex Akis)

02 - Aksu (Perge)

03 - Alfaro(Gracurris)

04 - Al Fayum (Arsinoe)

05 - Albano (Castra Albana)

06 - Arles (Arelate)

07 - Bacoli (Baia) - baths

08 - Bacoli (Baia) - nymphaeums

09 - Carthage (Carthago)

10 - Catania (Catana)

11 - Centuripe (Kenturipa)

12 - Condeixa (Conimbriga)

13 - Fordongianus (Forum Traiani)

14 - Gavignano (Rus Iuli)

15 - Jerash (Gerasa)

16 - Lebda (Leptis Magna)

17 - Massaciucoli (c/o Luna)

18 - Miletos (Miletus)

19 - Minori (Rheginna Minor)

20 - Misterbianco (c/o Catana)

21 - Montopoli (mons Pollionis)

22 - Nimes (Nemausus)

23 - Otricoli (Ocriculum)

24 - Ostia (Ostia)

25 - Pammukkale (Hierapolis)

26 - Paris (Lutetia Parisiorum)

27 - Ravenglass (Glannaventa)

28 - Rome (Diocleaziano)

29 - Rome (Caracalla)

30 - Rome (Traiano)

31 - Rome (Egeria)

32 - Rome (Trofei di Mario)

33 - Rome (Horti Liciniani aka Minerva Medica's temple)

34 - Selcuk(Ephesus)

35 - Siracusa (Syracusae)

36 - Tyre (Tirus)

37 - Tivoli (Tibur) ninphaeuem-stadium in Hadrian's villa

38 - Tivoli (Tibur) thermae in Hadrian's villa

39 - Tivoli (Tibur) Canopo in Hadrian's villa

40 - Treviri/Trier

41 - Volterra (Volaterrae)

As happened earlier with the other monuments listed in SR (amphitheaters,
bridges, arches, circus/hyppodromes/stadiums, gate and mausoleums) any help
from you is welcomed to enlist other places or have pictures )


thanks


Milko Anselmi

http://www.signaromanorum.org




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodie est ante diem III Nonas Quinctilis; haec dies nefastus publicus
est.

"Having accomplished these works deserving of immortality, while he
was holding an assembly of the people for reviewing his army, in the
plain near the Goat's pool, a storm suddenly came on, accompanied by
loud thunder and lightning, and enveloped the king in so dense a mist,
that it entirely hid him from the sight of the assembly. After this
Romulus was never seen again upon earth. The feeling of consternation
having at length calmed down, and the weather having become clear and
fine again after so stormy a day, the Roman youth seeing the royal
seat empty--though they readily believed the words of the fathers who
had stood nearest him, that he had been carried up to heaven by the
storm--yet, struck as it were with the fear of being fatherless, for a
considerable time preserved a sorrowful silence. Then, after a few had
set the example, the whole multitude saluted Romulus as a god, the son
of a god, the king and parent of the Roman city; they implored his
favour with prayers, that with gracious kindness he would always
preserve his offspring. I believe that even then there were some, who
in secret were convinced that the king had been torn in pieces by the
hands of the fathers--for this rumour also spread, but it was very
doubtfully received; admiration for the man, however, and the awe felt
at the moment, gave greater notoriety to the other report. Also by the
clever idea of one individual, additional confirmation is said to have
been attached to the occurrence. For Proculus Julius, while the state
was still troubled at the loss of the king, and incensed against the
senators, a weighty authority, as we are told, in any matter however
important, came forward into the assembly. "Quirites," said he,
"Romulus, the father of this city, suddenly descending from heaven,
appeared to me this day at daybreak. While I stood filled with dread,
and religious awe, beseeching him to allow me to look upon him face to
face, 'Go,' said he, 'tell the Romans, that the gods so will, that my
Rome should become the capital of the world. Therefore let them
cultivate the art of war, and let them know and so hand it down to
posterity, that no human power can withstand the Roman arms.' Having
said this, he vanished up to heaven." It is surprising what credit was
given to that person when he made the announcement, and how much the
regret of the common people and army for the loss of Romulus was
assuaged when the certainty of his immortality was confirmed." Livy,
History of Rome I.15

"Things being in this disorder, one, they say, of the patricians, of
noble family and approved good character, and a faithful and familiar
friend of Romulus himself, having come with him from Alba, Julius
Proculus by name, presented himself in the forum; and taking a most
sacred oath, protested before them all, that, as he was travelling on
the road, he had seen Romulus coming to meet him, looking taller and
comelier than ever, dressed in shining and flaming armor; and he,
being affrighted at the apparition, said, "Why, O king, or for what
purpose, have you abandoned us to unjust and wicked surmises, and the
whole city to bereavement and endless sorrow?" and that he made
answer, "It pleased the gods, O Proculus, that we, who came from them,
should remain so long a time amongst men as we did; and, having built
a city to be the greatest in the world for empire and glory, should
again return to heaven. But farewell; and tell the Romans, that, by
the exercise of temperance and fortitude, they shall attain the height
of human power; we will be to you the propitious god Quirinus." This
seemed credible to the Romans, upon the honesty and oath of the
relator, and laying aside all jealousies and detractions, they prayed
to Quirinus and saluted him as a god." - Plutarch's Lives, "Romulus"

Today is marked as the observance of the Poplifugia. The Poplifugia
is a significant religious festival which honors Iuppiter. It was a
day of feasting and celebration but the rites are not known with
certainty. Poplifugia means "The Flight of The People" and refers to
events that were ancient and obscure even to the Romans, but two
explanations are given by H.H. Scullard: one, "the people fled when
Romulus disappeared from mortal sight during a tempest"; the other,
the flight of the Roman people after the sack of Rome by the Gauls.

Valete bene!

Cato



SOURCES

Livy, Plutarch, Wikipedia

Salvete, quirites

Jubilate with me, quirites, my sad absence at least was not in vane!!!

Finally, I ended my post degree that has consumed so much of my time
the last months, specially together with a full professional agenda
that hadn´t given me much time. The older friends of NR know how long
I was due to end this journey, but it has finally ended.

I thank to queen Minerva by suport on these tiring days, and Urania by
inspiration... and my transpiration as well.

Now, well deserved vacations. I hope I come back by the ides. I long
by more romanitas again in my life.

--
Valete bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus CSL (now a M. Sc too !!!)

"Vigilando, agendo, bene consulendo, prospera omnia cedunt" - Salustius

SALVE LUCIA LIVIA!

You are welcome! If you will travel to Bucharest, don't forget that
you already have friends here.

VALE BENE,
IVL SABINVS

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "liviacases" <cases@...> wrote:
> Though I have passed the citizenship test my probationary period is
> not over yet. I have already introduced myself to the Novaroman
list, but I have only been lurking on this list and I was going to
wait with the introduction until I was confirmed as a citizen.
> I'm a 40 years old italian woman living in Budapest. My civil name
is Livia Cases and my roman name Lucia Livia Plauta.

SALVE AMICE ET SALVETE!

For sure I will contribute with some photos from my area.
For me, Signa Romanorum is the best example about how a good project
can succeed in time if it is constantly managed by dedicated people.

VALETE,
IVL SABINVS

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Milko Anselmi" <peraznanie@...>
wrote:

> as you know, I'm trying to make a list of the Roman monuments

scattered in what once was the Roman Empire(Signa Romanorum Project).
After some months I'm now able to make a list of bath houses and
nymphaeums. This list includes the Roman baths and nymphaeums which
have still a complete vault.

Salvete all,

Maior and I will hostess an annual holiday because we are both in agreement
on this censorship issue. Things have gotten out of hand.

As I mentioned in the Back Alley, even PG movies allow swearing and nudity.
Here nothing is allowed anymore-- all in the name of having the possibility
of minors on this list.
I ask, if a 10 year old can attend a movie-- without their parents-- which
has swearing and nudity, then why are we suffering from such over the top
censorship? Kids of all ages see and hear much worse on MTV. Plus, I daresay
that we have no minors here and certainly no one of 10 years. Face it,
they'd be bored to death here.

By censoring all mention of sex- or censoring a person defending a silly
video with fully clad women dressed in leather-- we dishonour the Goddess of
Love, Venus who is the mother of the Roman people.

Think about it.

Valete,
Diana Octavia
your friendly neighborhood Priestess of Venus for NR

Salvete Diana Octavia et omnes;

I am in full agreement with Diana Octavia, if we spurn Venus
Genetrix, we spurn the the mother of the Roman people! If not for
her affair with Anchises, Aeneas, would never have been born.
The great poets and writers praised her& so should we in true
Roman fashion. To do less would be impious!
bene valete in pacem deorum
M. Hortensia Maior

>
> Maior and I will hostess an annual holiday because we are both in

agreement

> on this censorship issue. Things have gotten out of hand.
>
> As I mentioned in the Back Alley, even PG movies allow swearing

and nudity.

> Here nothing is allowed anymore-- all in the name of having the

possibility

> of minors on this list.
> I ask, if a 10 year old can attend a movie-- without their parents-

- which

> has swearing and nudity, then why are we suffering from such over

the top

> censorship? Kids of all ages see and hear much worse on MTV. Plus,

I daresay

> that we have no minors here and certainly no one of 10 years. Face

it,

> they'd be bored to death here.
>
> By censoring all mention of sex- or censoring a person defending a

silly

> video with fully clad women dressed in leather-- we dishonour the

Goddess of

> Love, Venus who is the mother of the Roman people.
>
> Think about it.
>
> Valete,
> Diana Octavia
> your friendly neighborhood Priestess of Venus for NR
>

Salve Amice!

My warmest Congratulations!

>Salvete, quirites
>
>Jubilate with me, quirites, my sad absence at least was not in vane!!!
>
>Finally, I ended my post degree that has consumed so much of my time
>the last months, specially together with a full professional agenda
>that hadn´t given me much time. The older friends of NR know how long
>I was due to end this journey, but it has finally ended.
>
>I thank to queen Minerva by suport on these tiring days, and Urania by
>inspiration... and my transpiration as well.
>
>Now, well deserved vacations. I hope I come back by the ides. I long
>by more romanitas again in my life.
>
>--
>Valete bene in pacem deorum,
>L. Arminius Faustus CSL (now a M. Sc too !!!)

--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus

Senator, Censorius et Consularis
Accensus LAF, Scribae Censoris GFBM
Praeses, Triumvir et Praescriptor Academia Thules ad S.R.A. et N.
Editor-in-Chief, Publisher and Owner of "Roman Times Quarterly"
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

you're too kind amice
vale
MIP
--- In Nova-
Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Titus Iulius Sabinus" <iulius_sabinus@...> wrote:

>
> SALVE AMICE ET SALVETE!
>
> For sure I will contribute with some photos from my area.
> For me, Signa Romanorum is the best example about how a good project
> can succeed in time if it is constantly managed by dedicated people.
>
> VALETE,
> IVL SABINVS
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Milko Anselmi" <peraznanie@>
> wrote:
> > as you know, I'm trying to make a list of the Roman monuments
> scattered in what once was the Roman Empire(Signa Romanorum Project).
> After some months I'm now able to make a list of bath houses and
> nymphaeums. This list includes the Roman baths and nymphaeums which
> have still a complete vault.
>

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Dianae Octaviae salutem dicit

I attend Pagan Festivals which are clothing optional that are family and
child friendly. As you know, but some do not, nudity does not always equal
sex. And sex is not a bad thing. Some people come to Nova Roma because of
their love of Latin, more power to them Rah Rah Latin -- we need it. But
others come to Nova Roma because of our love of ancient Roman Religion and
our sentimentalities should not be placed in the closet in honor of a
pseudo-Victorian disposition. The moderators need to weed out any minors on
the list. If there is a desire for children to be a part of Nova Roma
on-line community then perhaps the more sedate New Roman list could be their
home, but I see no reason for the Main List to be rated G!

Vale:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus

On 7/5/07, Diana Aventina <diana@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete all,
>
> Maior and I will hostess an annual holiday because we are both in
> agreement
> on this censorship issue. Things have gotten out of hand.
>
> As I mentioned in the Back Alley, even PG movies allow swearing and
> nudity.
> Here nothing is allowed anymore-- all in the name of having the
> possibility
> of minors on this list.
> I ask, if a 10 year old can attend a movie-- without their parents-- which
>
> has swearing and nudity, then why are we suffering from such over the top
> censorship? Kids of all ages see and hear much worse on MTV. Plus, I
> daresay
> that we have no minors here and certainly no one of 10 years. Face it,
> they'd be bored to death here.
>
> By censoring all mention of sex- or censoring a person defending a silly
> video with fully clad women dressed in leather-- we dishonour the Goddess
> of
> Love, Venus who is the mother of the Roman people.
>
> Think about it.
>
> Valete,
> Diana Octavia
> your friendly neighborhood Priestess of Venus for NR
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

A. Apollonius L. Liviae sal.

Welcome, L. Livia. It's always good to see a new citizen, and especially one who has some Latin, even rusty Latin. :)

> I have always been interested in history and archeology, and lately
> I've started collecting roman fibulas. My long term goal is to make
> faithful reproductions of ancient roman and greek clothes.

Perhaps you've seen that a sodalitas of tailors and cobblers is being formed at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sodalitas_Vestitorum_et_Sutorum/ - one of the people you'll find there is my friend M. Lucretius Agricola, who I know has made a bit of a study of fibulae too.

> As a newbye I got the impression that the Latinitas list is ruled by
> a tyrant whose fundamentalist prudeness makes her see a menace even
> in the mere mention of nudity.

The Romans of the old republic were painfully aware of the dangers which could arise when power was exercised by one person alone; that is why not only the Roman state, but also Roman private clubs and sodalitates, always gave power to at least two people at a time. This is how the sodalitas Latinitatis is constituted, too; but we recently lost one of the two magistri, and since then we have had only A. Tullia. All Romans should be uneasy when half of a dual magistracy is left vacant, and should call for the vacancy to be filled as quickly as possible, no matter how good or bad the remaining officer may be. It is therefore very welcome that Scholastica will soon be conducting an election to fill the vacant magistracy of the sodalitas.

> In my opinion nothing could be further from the spirit of latinity
> than this kind of attitude. Or did nobody notice the abundance of
> phallic representations and erotic statues in classical roman
> art? (Huh, now am I going to be censored because I said "phallic" and
> "erotic"? Gonna censor Ovid as well?)

...

> Furthermore nothing could justify public ironic insults against other
> Novaromans and the unauthorized publishing of confidential personal
> details.
>
> You people have to realize that this gives a bad, bad impression.
> Fortunately I also noticed that the people who are unable to debate
> civilly are only a very small minority in Nova Roma.

I absolutely agree with your first point: it is very Roman to appreciate nudity and sexuality, and very unRoman to prohibit these things. But I must also point out something else. It is very Roman to argue vehemently and even rudely. It is very Roman for the person in charge of an election to strongly favour a particular candidate and to actively seek to influence the result of the election. Latin literature is as full of insults and invective as it is full of priapism and procreation.

> One thing is sure: if I ever feel the need to brush up my Latin I
> will never join the Latinitas sodality or use any of the facilities
> provided by Nova Roma. I've been scared off that forever.

That is sad, and I must say frankly that I think it is a rather silly over-reaction. Lively argument is an important part of Roman life. It is, in fact, the antidote to tyranny. It is also one of the greatest strengths of the Latin language, which is so well-suited to forceful argument that its greatest prose stylist, Cicero, was also Rome's greatest arguer. If you reject the sodalitas because it occasionally features such arguments (and I have to say that they are much more rare in that sodalitas than in many other parts of Nova Roma) then you will be showing as little sense as someone who rejects the sodalitas because it occasionally features silly videos of women wearing skimpy clothes (which is also very rare).

> Instead I will turn to Cn. Cornelius Lentulus, who's a good latin
> scholar, and furthermore a civilized person with whom discussions can
> be conducted in a civil manner, regardless of differences of opinions.

Indeed you could not find a better guide than Cn. Lentulus. But he, just as much as A. Tullia, is a leader of the sodalitas, since he is one of its three decuriones. And he will, I am sure, tell you that an important way to improve your Latin is to participate in conversations with other Latin-speakers - and that is what the sodalitas Latinitatis is there for.





___________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Try it
now.
http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/

T. Artoria Marcella S.P.D.

Modianus has made an excellent suggestion, at least from my point of view. Why not close the ML to minors? There are 1156 members on this list, and I suspect at least 1150 of them are adults, if not all. The change would not mean a sudden influx of profanity or graphic sexual descriptions, and we could at least discuss all things Roman--not just those suitable for all ages.

I agree that sodality business should not be aired here, and I agree that Scholastica, currently enjoying sole control over the Latinitas list, may currently impose whatever standards she wishes on "that" list. The question is, do we want the same restrictions to apply to the ML?

Valete bene,
Artoria


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

SALVETE!

If I remember well are two minors on this list, my son and a girl. My son interest is only to Ludi Circenses, so I don't see any problem for him.
Then, I didn't saw something dangerous in this list messages, for him, as minor. I consider NR list an equilibrate list with interesting topics.
Anyway, I explained him, two years ago, which are the various significations of the Latin equivalent of the English scabbard.

VALETE,
IVL SABINVS




Ice Hunter <icehunter@...> wrote:

T. Artoria Marcella S.P.D.

Modianus has made an excellent suggestion, at least from my point of view. Why not close the ML to minors? There are 1156 members on this list, and I suspect at least 1150 of them are adults, if not all. The change would not mean a sudden influx of profanity or graphic sexual descriptions, and we could at least discuss all things Roman--not just those suitable for all ages.

I agree that sodality business should not be aired here, and I agree that Scholastica, currently enjoying sole control over the Latinitas list, may currently impose whatever standards she wishes on "that" list. The question is, do we want the same restrictions to apply to the ML?

Valete bene,
Artoria

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






"Every individual is the architect of his own fortune" - Appius Claudius





---------------------------------
Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
> A. Tullia Scholastica T. Artoriae Marcellae quiritibus bonae voluntatis
> S.P.D.
>
>
> T. Artoria Marcella S.P.D.
>
> Modianus has made an excellent suggestion, at least from my point of view.
> Why not close the ML to minors? There are 1156 members on this list, and I
> suspect at least 1150 of them are adults, if not all. The change would not
> mean a sudden influx of profanity or graphic sexual descriptions, and we could
> at least discuss all things Roman--not just those suitable for all ages.
>
> ATS: The answer to that one is that we would then have to change the
> settings with Yahoo to make this an all-adult list. We do in fact get
> prospective members (including minors, some of whom are close to legal
> majority) from this list, and it is not necessarily a good idea to close that
> avenue to them. Moreover, since this is in fact an official list of NR, we
> might have to have legislation for such a change to take place. We have no
> idea what the ages of the ML or other list members may be, nor does age 18
> automatically guarantee sufficient maturity to deal with certain matters,
> among which is the fact that the drinking age does not correspond to this in
> either the US or Canada. The TOS require us not to harm minors, and in that
> case at least, the minors are legally adult, but not legally allowed to
> purchase alcohol.
>
> I agree that sodality business should not be aired here, and I agree that
> Scholastica, currently enjoying sole control over the Latinitas list, may
> currently impose whatever standards she wishes on "that" list.
>
> ATS: Sorry to disappoint you, but we have three decuriones in Latinitas,
> including Lentulus, the first decurio, who have list moderation privileges.
> The third decurio, Marinus, has also been doing Latinitas moderation of late.
> It happens that some things are not appropriate in Latinitas, and some things
> are not appropriate here. This video is neither obscene nor pornographic, but
> it sends a very bad message to young people in particular as to the role of
> women and other issues. That alone makes it unsuitable.
>
> Once more with feeling: there is very little actual moderation here or on
> Latinitas, for MOST people who post are sufficiently sensible that they
> restrain themselves. A minority do not. Spammers do not; I banned one the
> other day, one who had been lurking for over a month, then decided to post.
> Perhaps you would care for some spam on the half-shell?
>
> The question is, do we want the same restrictions to apply to the ML?
>
> ATS: They don¹t, but some of them do. Some things suitable for the BA
> are not suitable here, or, for that matter, in magisterial cohortes, where
> everyone is presumably an adult.
>
> And, oh, I¹m not as prudish as some might think, nor am I a fundamentalist
> of any stripe, nor am I shrill...
>
> Valete bene,
> Artoria
>
>
> Vale, et valete.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

That seems an odd size. Why not 3x5?

On 6/21/07, Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa <canadaoccidentalis@...> wrote:
> I have looked into selling full size flags (approx. 68 cm by 137 cm or 27" by 54"). As these are custom flags, the best price I could get from a supplier would result in a price to the customer of approximately $50 US/$50 CAN (they're pretty much even now). If there is a demand, I will start ordering them in.
>
> Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa
>
> "M. Lucretius Agricola" <wm_hogue@...> wrote:
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "sextus_lucilius_tutor" <phorus@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Salve Quirites,
> >
> > is possible buy big flag of Nova Roma ?
> >
> > Thank you
> >
> > Sextus Lucilius Tutor
> >
> > Vale
> >
>
> Salve!
>
> A quick look in our Macellum
> http://novaroma.org/nr/Macellum_%28Nova_Roma%29 shows that it is not
> possible.
>
> Maybe someone will decide to join the Ordo Equester, get permission
> from the Senate (our flag is covered by our copyright, I believe) and
> set up a flag business. Such a thing would be quite welcome in the Res
> Publica and in the Macellum, I suspect.
>
> optime vale!
>
> Agricola
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


--
>|P. Dominus Antonius|<
Tony Dah m

Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius
Mahometismus religio pacis, nex omnibus dissidentibus.

The supplier I talked with said they only sell flags in the Canadian ratio of
2:1. I have been looked at international (ie American) retailers but have had few responses so far.

Agrippa


"P. Dominus Antonius" <marsvigilia@...> wrote:
That seems an odd size. Why not 3x5?

On 6/21/07, Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa <canadaoccidentalis@...> wrote:
> I have looked into selling full size flags (approx. 68 cm by 137 cm or 27" by 54"). As these are custom flags, the best price I could get from a supplier would result in a price to the customer of approximately $50 US/$50 CAN (they're pretty much even now). If there is a demand, I will start ordering them in.
>
> Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa
>
> "M. Lucretius Agricola" <wm_hogue@...> wrote:
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "sextus_lucilius_tutor" <phorus@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Salve Quirites,
> >
> > is possible buy big flag of Nova Roma ?
> >
> > Thank you
> >
> > Sextus Lucilius Tutor
> >
> > Vale
> >
>
> Salve!
>
> A quick look in our Macellum
> http://novaroma.org/nr/Macellum_%28Nova_Roma%29 shows that it is not
> possible.
>
> Maybe someone will decide to join the Ordo Equester, get permission
> from the Senate (our flag is covered by our copyright, I believe) and
> set up a flag business. Such a thing would be quite welcome in the Res
> Publica and in the Macellum, I suspect.
>
> optime vale!
>
> Agricola
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

--
>|P. Dominus Antonius|<
Tony Dah m

Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius
Mahometismus religio pacis, nex omnibus dissidentibus.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Reminder from:		Nova-Roma Yahoo! Group
Title:		VI Conventus Novae Romae
Date:		Saturday July 7, 2007
Time:		12:00 am - 1:00 am
Repeats:		This event repeats every week until Thursday August 9, 2007.
Location:		http://www.novaroma.org/nr/VI_Conventus_Novae_Romae
Notes:		Brush up your Latin and get your tickets for the VI Conventus Novae Romae in Emerita Augusta, Hispania (Merida, Spain).
Get reminders on your mobile, Yahoo! Messenger, and email. Edit reminder options

Copyright © 2007  Yahoo! Inc. All Rights Reserved | Terms of Service | Privacy Policy

Then perhaps 3x6 would be better that way it could be taken in to 3x5
if desired. 2x4 just doesn't seem like a full size flag that I would
necessarily feel comfortable flying. It would look more like a toy
flag. IMHO.
--

>|P. Dominus Antonius|<

Tony Dah m

Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius
Mahometismus religio pacis, nex omnibus dissidentibus.

On 7/6/07, Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa <canadaoccidentalis@...> wrote:
> The supplier I talked with said they only sell flags in the Canadian ratio of
> 2:1. I have been looked at international (ie American) retailers but have had few responses so far.
>
> Agrippa
>
>
> "P. Dominus Antonius" <marsvigilia@...> wrote:
> That seems an odd size. Why not 3x5?
>

Salvete:
I can't upload an image but here is a link to a wonderful statue of
Venus.
http://www.vroma.org/images/mcmanus_images/venus_dolphin.jpg

Romans let us embrace our heritage
M. Hortensia Maior

>
> SALVETE!
>
> If I remember well are two minors on this list, my son and a

girl. My son interest is only to Ludi Circenses, so I don't see any
problem for him.

> Then, I didn't saw something dangerous in this list messages,

for him, as minor. I consider NR list an equilibrate list with
interesting topics.

> Anyway, I explained him, two years ago, which are the various

significations of the Latin equivalent of the English scabbard.

>
> VALETE,
> IVL SABINVS
>
>
>
>
> Ice Hunter <icehunter@...> wrote:
>
> T. Artoria Marcella S.P.D.
>
> Modianus has made an excellent suggestion, at least from my point

of view. Why not close the ML to minors? There are 1156 members on
this list, and I suspect at least 1150 of them are adults, if not
all. The change would not mean a sudden influx of profanity or
graphic sexual descriptions, and we could at least discuss all
things Roman--not just those suitable for all ages.

>
> I agree that sodality business should not be aired here, and I

agree that Scholastica, currently enjoying sole control over the
Latinitas list, may currently impose whatever standards she wishes
on "that" list. The question is, do we want the same restrictions to
apply to the ML?

>
> Valete bene,
> Artoria
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "Every individual is the architect of his own fortune" -

Appius Claudius

>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your

pocket: mail, news, photos & more.

>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

T. Artoria Marcella A. Tulliae Scholasticae,

> ATS: The answer to that one is that we would then have to change the
> settings with Yahoo to make this an all-adult list.

And why is this a problem? Once the initial purge of minors is complete, it's only a matter of restricting new members to the age requirement.

>We do in fact get
> prospective members (including minors, some of whom are close to legal
> majority) from this list, and it is not necessarily a good idea to close that
> avenue to them.

Why? I often wish I'd waited to join the ML and had instead been on the New Roman list for a time. It would have been beneficial.

>Moreover, since this is in fact an official list of NR, we
> might have to have legislation for such a change to take place.

We "might" need legislation? If we do, I'll be happy to help push it through.

>nor does age 18
> automatically guarantee sufficient maturity to deal with certain matters,

Like dying in a war? I suggest we assume our eighteen year olds are old enough for the ML. The drinking age is irrelevant, as Yahoo specifies eighteen as the age of maturity.

> ATS: Sorry to disappoint you, but we have three decuriones in Latinitas,
> including Lentulus, the first decurio, who have list moderation privileges.

I'm not disappointed, but perhaps confused. Don't you currently have final say on what is, and what is not, allowed on the Latinitas list?

>This video is neither obscene nor pornographic, but
> it sends a very bad message to young people in particular as to the role of
> women and other issues. That alone makes it unsuitable.

In your opinion. Not in mine. I found it harmless.

>> The question is, do we want the same restrictions to apply to the ML?

> ATS: They don't, but some of them do.

OK, you've lost me. Which do, and which don't?

Vale bene,
Artoria



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
> A. Tullia Scholastica Cn. Cornelio Lentulo propraetori quiritibus bonae
> voluntatis s.p.d.
>
>
> Cn. Lentulus propr. Pannoniae Quiritibus s. p. d.:
>
> I salute my fellow citizens from the current 3rd Reenactor Camp of Pannonia
> and the "Gladius" Association! The camp is fantastically great, we have 15
> legionars who are mosty young boys and have paid to be able to participate in
> the camp, (besides them there are 7 Sarmata campers and 10 Germans from
> another association jointed to "Gladius"). They are being trained and drilled
> by me (I'm the centurio of the Legio XXI Rapax, the legion of the "Gladius"
> Association). Today I have taught the "Contra equites!", "Testudo!", "Orbis",
> "Ordo simplex!", "Ordo duplex!", and similar formations. There was a little
> battle today against the Sarmatas. There was two lectures this morning before
> the training and the battle about the history of the legions and about the
> Sarmatas who lived in this place in the Roman times.
>
> ATS: Tibi gratulor, Lentule! Omnia optima sunt! Videris rectissime
> togatus, profecto Romanus novus! Quaestiones: scuta longiora sunt quam illa
> quibus milites hac in patria utuuntur, et milites caligas gerere non videntur,
> sed fortasse calceamentis aliis. Hic facile est caligas emere; alia difficile
> est. Quae est femina post te, cum illo Metello? Habetne nomen?
>
> PHOTOS OF THE FIRST AND SECOND DAY:
>
> http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Provincia_Pannonia_%28Nova_Roma%29
>
> I am still waiting for any guest to this camp from the near provinces, the
> camp for Nova Romans is free.
>
> Curate ut valeatis!
>
> Cn. Cornelius Lentulus
> Propraetor Pannoniae
> Rogator Novae Romae
>
> Vale, et valete.
> ---------------------------------
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

FYI

----- Original Message -----

To: imperialrome2@...<mailto:imperialrome2@...>
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 10:54 PM
Subject: [Imperial Rome] Tomb of Orpheus Discovered?


Orpheus Tomb Discovered?
News.bg [Bulgaria], 29.06.2007

The Orpheus sanctuary in Rhodope mountains is a thousand years older
than the Egyptian pyramids. The sensational discovery was made by an
archaeological expedition, which investigated the temple of the
Thracians near the village of Tatul, Bulgara, reported BNT [Bulgaria].
The scientists found 6000-year old buildings with preserved tools made
of semi-precious stones, crockery, animal remains. According to the
archaeologists it can now be asserted that this is the Tomb of Orpheus,
which had been visited by thousands of pilgrims from around the ancient
world. The sanctuary is one of the oldest in the world, and can be
compared with cult complexes such as Stonehenge.

http://international.ibox.bg/news/id_1942829985<http://international.iboxbg/news/id_1942829985>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodie est Nonis Quinctiliis; haec dies nefastus est.

Today is the observance of the Nonae Caprotina - a special feast
celebrated in honor of Iuno Caprotina. Caprotina is an epithet of Juno
in Her aspect as a fertility Goddess. As Juno Caprotina She is
associated with goats (Latin capra, "she-goat", caper, "he-goat") and
with figs ("caprificus"), both of which are symbolic of fertility: the
fig fruit bears many seeds, and goats are well-known for their
randiness. Her festival was called the Nonae Caprotina, or the "Nones
of Caprotina", held on the nones or 7th day of July, and it was
exclusively celebrated by women, especially slave-women.

The Roman explanation of the Nonae Caprotina is thus: after Rome had
survived a siege by the Gauls, some of the less-friendly neighboring
Latin tribes decided to take advantage of Rome's weakened position and
demanded Roman women in marriage, under the threat of destroying the
city. While the Senate debated what to do, a slave-woman named Tutela
took the matter into her own hands: with a group of other slave-women
dressed as free women, she went to the amassed enemy army, and under
the guise of celebrating a wedding feast, got the Latins quite drunk.
After they had fallen asleep the slave-girls took their weapons, and
Tutela climbed a nearby wild fig tree (caproficus in the Latin) and
waved a torch as signal for the Romans to attack. This they did, and
as a reward for the resulting victory, the Senate gave each
slave-woman who participated her freedom, as well as a generous dowry.
After that, in remembrance of the victory, the Nonae Caprotina were
celebrated. Fig-branches and the milky sap of the fig-tree were
offered to Juno, and festivities, feasts and rites were held in the
fig-grove of the Campus Martius (the Plain of Mars).

Another explanation for this festival was that it commemorated the day
that Romulus, the legendary founder of Rome, mysteriously vanished
during a thunderstorm, after which He was believed to have been taken
by the Gods and made immortal. The site of His disappearance was the
Palus Caprae (or "Goat's Marsh") in the Campus Martius, a swampy basin
not far from the spot where the Pantheon is nowadays. The Nonae
Caprotinae were also connected with the Poplifugia of the 5th of July,
traditionally said to commemorate the people's panicky flight when
faced with either a) the enemy army come to seize the women, or b) the
occasion of Romulus's disappearence into thin air. The actual,
original meaning of the Poplifugia had been long forgotten, though it
may have referred to the ritual defeat or chasing away of the
neighboring Latin armies. Another connection between the Nonae
Caprotinae and the Poplifugia is that is was traditional on the Nonae
Caprotinae for the women to run or be chased from the Temple of Iuno
to the fig-grove where a feast was held.

Goats, figs, and a fleeing populace are the common threads in these
traditions; also located near the Palus Caprae (which is the name
given to that area only in the legend of Romulus' disappearance) were
the Aedicula Capraria, the Shrine of the Goat, and the Vicus
Caprarius, a road literally named "Goat Street", which was probably
named so because it led to the Aedicula Capraria. It is not known if
the Aedicula Capraria was used in the festivities of the Nonae
Caprotina, though that would seem likely. And yet another tradition
names the invading army that frightened the populace so as being from
Ficulea or Ficulnea, an ancient Sabine town whose name means "Of the
Fig-Tree".

The various and confused explanations given for the two related
festivals point to both their importance and their ancient origins.
Probably they are both linked to the fig-harvest, which takes place in
Italy in June and July, and to Juno as a Goddess of the fig tree who
ensured a bountiful crop. The milk-like sap of the fig tree connects
it with fertility, both of Iuno as the Mother Goddess — who was after
all equated with the Greek Hera, whose spilled breast milk was said to
have formed the Milky Way — and of goats themselves, who were often
kept for milk (even now a bowl of goat's milk is a part of the
traditional breakfast offered in Rome). The fertility of the figs and
goats brought by Iuno Caprotina was probably seen as encouraging the
fertility of the women, as certain of the rites of the Nonae
Caprotinae compare with the Lupercalia, a festival also dedicated to
fertility. The other major theme of the Poplifugia and the Nonae
Caprotina (as well as the Lupercalia) was the ritual spiritual
cleansing of the city: the fig was known in ancient times as a
purgative, and thus associated with the driving out of evil (as both
figs and fig-branches were used in the Greek rite of the Thargelia,
when Athens was symbolically cleansed), so that the people and the
crops might prosper. The Flight of the People (enemy army or panicky
populace) may also connect to a symbolic driving out of enemies or bad
spirits.

Iuno Caprotina was usually depicted with goats, naturally enough: on
one coin She rides a biga, a two "horse" chariot in this case drawn by
a pair of goats; Her dress flows in the wind of Her speed and She
holds what looks like a riding crop. On another coin, on which Her
portrait is stamped, She wears a head-dress made of goat-hide, with
the goat's head over Her own so that the horns are preserved in the
back, and the lower jawline of the goat runs along Her own.

Valete bene!

Cato



SOURCES

Obscure Goddess Directory, Wikipedia

OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Just a couple of thoughts from the "other" praetor :-)

Right now, this Forum is operating solely under Yahoo!'s ToS
agreement and the collective wisdom of the moderators.

We (the praetors) did not issue an edict this year regarding activity
in the Forum - basically because of our differing opinions on this
very subject (what constitutes "suitability") - and so far I have
seen no evidence whatsoever of a sharp decline in public morals nor
any need for horrified parents to be throwing the ends of their togae
or pullae over their childrens' eyes.

I hesitate to use the words "the role of women" or "the role of men"
in any context - whether in self-declared "defense" of either gender
or not; the very use of that kind of phrase assumes that there *are*
specific "roles" by which gender-based activities are immutably
governed, and any deviation from those roles is somehow immoral or
unnatural. *This* is a terrible example to set for our children,
much more than seeing women clad in leather spoofing a song in
Latin. I have often spoofed songs wearing significantly less -
although admittedly without the presence of a video camera.

Now oddly enough, I still stand when a woman enters a room, still
hold open doors for women, still have the menu without the prices
given to women at a table - but that is a result of being the product
of a now ever-more increasingly defunct set of social values. These
values are (or were) not wrong or right, moral or immoral in and of
themselves; they simply reflected the values of a society that has
since faded away. Even as a product of them, I do not think it is my
right (or duty) to try to force anyone else to obey them.

There will be no censorship of this Forum while I am one of your
praetors. Nor do I think that the Forum should be "Adults Only",
ever. This is our central meeting-place, open to all citizens of
every province and gender and age.

Valete bene,

Cato

Salvete Cato et omnes,

I can honestly say that restrictions on these forums are nothing when
compared to other yahoo groups; especially answers.
I got a few post there kicked off last month. All that happens is
keywords shut you down and it doesn't seem to have much to to do with
moderation.

In one post for example, I was asked how the Jewish people had
changed in recent history and I answered that they no longer go to
their deaths like sheep to ths slaughter any more but are now a mean
as junk yard dogs when somone tries to destroy them; they fight and
retaliate with powerful tenacity in other words. I got a note saying
this post was offensive so they deleted it and took away my atatus as
best answer which I had won. In short, either the moderators do not
understand concepts of simile and metaphor; English is a second
language or just kewwords like Jew, sheep and dog came up
and poof, it was an infraction. Sigh, remember Leroy Brown, meaner
than a junk yard dog? You cannot even quote what some bad person says.
At the white supremicist rally the Imperial Wizard of the KKK said to
the Afro American leader, "Boy, if you's good I gots you a water
melon but if you's bad here is a rope!" a subsequent riot broke out
with many injuries... this statement would be struck off as well.
Regards,

QSP

> There will be no censorship of this Forum while I am one of your
> praetors. Nor do I think that the Forum should be "Adults Only",
> ever. This is our central meeting-place, open to all citizens of
> every province and gender and age.
>
> Valete bene,
>
> Cato
>

M. Hortensia Paulino spd;
I'd thoght this site was ruined. Did you read that some time ago?
Maior

>
>
> Orpheus Tomb Discovered?
> News.bg [Bulgaria], 29.06.2007
>
> The Orpheus sanctuary in Rhodope mountains is a thousand years

older

> than the Egyptian pyramids. The sensational discovery was made by

an

> archaeological expedition, which investigated the temple of the
> Thracians near the village of Tatul, Bulgara, reported BNT

[Bulgaria].

> The scientists found 6000-year old buildings with preserved tools

made

> of semi-precious stones, crockery, animal remains. According to the
> archaeologists it can now be asserted that this is the Tomb of

Orpheus,

> which had been visited by thousands of pilgrims from around the

ancient

> world. The sanctuary is one of the oldest in the world, and can be
> compared with cult complexes such as Stonehenge.
>
>

http://international.ibox.bg/news/id_1942829985<http://international.
iboxbg/news/id_1942829985>

>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Salve Maior

No the article is dated June 30 2007.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

----- Original Message -----
From: Maior<mailto:rory12001@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 5:10 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Fw: [Imperial Rome] Tomb of Orpheus Discovered?


M. Hortensia Paulino spd;
I'd thoght this site was ruined. Did you read that some time ago?
Maior
>
>
> Orpheus Tomb Discovered?
> News.bg [Bulgaria], 29.06.2007
>
> The Orpheus sanctuary in Rhodope mountains is a thousand years
older
> than the Egyptian pyramids. The sensational discovery was made by
an
> archaeological expedition, which investigated the temple of the
> Thracians near the village of Tatul, Bulgara, reported BNT
[Bulgaria].
> The scientists found 6000-year old buildings with preserved tools
made
> of semi-precious stones, crockery, animal remains. According to the
> archaeologists it can now be asserted that this is the Tomb of
Orpheus,
> which had been visited by thousands of pilgrims from around the
ancient
> world. The sanctuary is one of the oldest in the world, and can be
> compared with cult complexes such as Stonehenge.
>
>
http://international.ibox.bg/news/id_1942829985<http://international.iboxbg/news/id_1942829985><http://international.<http://international./>
iboxbg/news/id_1942829985>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve

They meant to say Temple rather than Tomb.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

----- Original Message -----
From: Stephen Gallagher<mailto:spqr753@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 10:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Fw: [Imperial Rome] Tomb of Orpheus Discovered?


Salve Maior

No the article is dated June 30 2007.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

----- Original Message -----
From: Maior<mailto:rory12001@...<mailto:rory12001@...>>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com><mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>>
Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 5:10 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Fw: [Imperial Rome] Tomb of Orpheus Discovered?

M. Hortensia Paulino spd;
I'd thoght this site was ruined. Did you read that some time ago?
Maior
>
>
> Orpheus Tomb Discovered?
> News.bg [Bulgaria], 29.06.2007
>
> The Orpheus sanctuary in Rhodope mountains is a thousand years
older
> than the Egyptian pyramids. The sensational discovery was made by
an
> archaeological expedition, which investigated the temple of the
> Thracians near the village of Tatul, Bulgara, reported BNT
[Bulgaria].
> The scientists found 6000-year old buildings with preserved tools
made
> of semi-precious stones, crockery, animal remains. According to the
> archaeologists it can now be asserted that this is the Tomb of
Orpheus,
> which had been visited by thousands of pilgrims from around the
ancient
> world. The sanctuary is one of the oldest in the world, and can be
> compared with cult complexes such as Stonehenge.
>
>
http://international.ibox.bg/news/id_1942829985<http://international.iboxbg/news/id_1942829985><http://international.iboxbg/news/id_1942829985<http://international.iboxbg/news/id_1942829985>><http://international.<http://international./><http://international./<http://international./>>
iboxbg/news/id_1942829985>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]