SALVETE!

There are already two months from the last post of Suetonius Paulinus.
Does anyone know if everything is ok with him? I remember that he had
some problems with his server.

VALETE,
IVL SABINVS

>
> Salve, Sabine, et salvete, omnes bonae voluntatis!
>
>
> SALVETE!
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com> , Maxima
> Valeria Messallina
> <violetphearsen@...> wrote:
>
>> > And last, but not least, congratulations to Tullia Scholastica for
> her very entertaining Circenes reports! Enjoyed them immensely!
>
> As always, our magistra Scholastica presented the best reports, with a
> lot of details.
>
> ATS: Thank you very much! I would have added a few more points, but what
> with one consul traveling in the far North of Britannia and the other
> apparently roaming in the trackless woods of Brasilia, as well as a dearth of
> magisterial chariot entries this time around, we had to omit any mention
> thereof. The details may make the reports longer, and perhaps tiresome, but
> they do bring the races to life, and bring them home to Nova Roma.
>
> Unfortunately, my son, Iulius Crassus was missing in action at this
> edition of Ludi Circenses. He is at his first days in college and he
> paid more attention to that.
>
> ATS: Ah, so! Congratulations to him! And Crassus is not the only
> missing member among the habitual entrants; the resourceful Silvana also sat
> this one out, and there were others as well. Both Veneta and Praesina were
> underrepresented, which may have lessened interest in the proceedings.
>
> I must take a better look at those maps...very interesting! Is young
> Scribby still in the Sodalitas Geographiae?
>
> VALETE,
> IVL SABINVS
>

Vale, et valete,

A. Tullia Scholastica



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Sabine,

I'll send him a note. Also, I'll see if any of our Canadian friends
have heard from him.

Vale,

CN-EQVIT-MARINVS

Titus Iulius Sabinus <iulius_sabinus@...> writes:

> SALVETE!
>
> There are already two months from the last post of Suetonius Paulinus.
> Does anyone know if everything is ok with him? I remember that he had
> some problems with his server.
>
> VALETE,
> IVL SABINVS

>
> A. Tullia Scholastica T. Artoriae Marcellae quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque
> bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
>
>
> Salvete omnes!
>
> The has come to an end. Sadly, we did not have entries for the Cultural
> Award, or enough entriess for the Venationes or Munera. But, thanks to T.
> Iulius Sabinus, we had an excellent Military Maps contest that was educational
> as well as entertaining, and we thank him for organizing the contest. We also
> thank, with equal gratitude, A. Tullia Scholastica for writing the Circenes
> reports. Her stories brought the races to life.
>
>
> ATS: Thank you for the compliments! We do have to elaborate the
> bare-bones information provided to us...and, of course, are grateful to those
> whose entry forms include more detail so that we can pass that along and liven
> things up. Some might prefer the simple recounting of the order of finish,
> but to me it is better to follow the lead of many writers here in NR who
> turned this information into entertaining stories. Those are a lot more
> memorable, and in the end teach more as well.
>
>
> Our thanks also go to those who participated in those games. You "are" the
> ludi, and you have honored both yourselves and the Gods.
>
> We salute those who achieved victories this ludi:
> C. Octavia Agrippa -- Military tactical maps contest
> Lucius Curtius Paullus (Russata Dawn) -- Circenses
>
> The Ludi Romani of 2760 a.U.c. is officially closed.
>
> Iulia Caesar Cytheris Aege T. Artoria Marcella
> Aediles Curules
>

Vale, et valete.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
> A. Tullia Scholastica T. Iulio Sabino quiritibus, socii, peregrinique bonae
> voluntatis S.P.D.
>
>
> SALVETE!
>
> There are already two months from the last post of Suetonius Paulinus.
> Does anyone know if everything is ok with him? I remember that he had
> some problems with his server.
>
> ATS: I wrote to him when I was about to head to Seattle for Conventiculum
> last June, trying to arrange a meeting; he said he was in the field and
> wouldn¹t be able to make the journey to the Seattle area. That¹s the last
> I¹ve heard from him, too. Do hope all is well after the accident involving
> his wife and other family members.
>
> VALETE,
> IVL SABINVS
>
> Vale, et valete.
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica Maximae Valeriae Messallinae quiritibus, sociis,
> peregrinisque bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
>
> Congratulations to Curtius Paullus and his excellent greys!
> Congratulations to C. Octavia Agrippa for her contest win!
> And last, but not least, congratulations to Tullia Scholastica for her very
> entertaining Circenes reports! Enjoyed them immensely!
>
> ATS: Thank you very much, amica! I¹m glad that you enjoyed the reports.
> Unfortunately, we were missing the ever-entertaining Silvana and her green
> chariots, as well as others who are often present in our ludi, and, as I noted
> in my reply to Sabinus, very few of the magistrates entered this time, so we
> could not describe the tensions in the pulvinar as their owners awaited the
> fates of their chariots. This may make the reports a bit longer, but it also
> makes them more lively, and brings them closer to us as Nova Romans.
>
>
> Waiting (im)patiently until the next ludi...
>
> Maxima Valeria Messallina
> The Vestal who loves chariot racing!
>
> ATS: Indeed you do! You¹ll have to get another three horses to match
> your existing one...and another trailer with A/C for their comfort! ;-) Then
> you will really burn up the track...
>
> Vale, et valete.
>
>
>
> Ice Hunter <icehunter@... <mailto:icehunter%40icehunter.net> >
> wrote:
> Salvete omnes!
>
> The has come to an end. Sadly, we did not have entries for the Cultural Award,
> or enough entriess for the Venationes or Munera. But, thanks to T. Iulius
> Sabinus, we had an excellent Military Maps contest that was educational as
> well as entertaining, and we thank him for organizing the contest. We also
> thank, with equal gratitude, A. Tullia Scholastica for writing the Circenes
> reports. Her stories brought the races to life.
>
> Our thanks also go to those who participated in those games. You "are" the
> ludi, and you have honored both yourselves and the Gods.
>
> We salute those who achieved victories this ludi:
> C. Octavia Agrippa -- Military tactical maps contest Lucius Curtius Paullus
> (Russata Dawn) -- Circenses
>
> The Ludi Romani of 2760 a.U.c. is officially closed.
>
> Iulia Caesar Cytheris Aege T. Artoria Marcella
> Aediles Curules
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> ---------------------------------

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodiernus dies est ante diem XI Kalendas Octobris; haec dies
comitialis est.

"And before them [the halls of Haides and Persephone] a dreaded hound
(deinos kunos), on watch, who has no pity, but a vile stratagem: as
people go in he fawns on all, with actions of his tail and both ears,
but he will not let them go back out, but lies in wait for them and
eats them up, when he catches any going back through the gates." -
Hesiod, Theogony 769ff

"Once, they say, the gate-wrecking, unconquerable son [Herakles] of
thunder-flashing Zeus went down to the house of slender-ankled
Persephone to fetch up to the light from Hades the jagged-toothed dog
[Kerberos], son of unapproachable Ekhidna. There he perceived the
spirits of wretched mortals by the waters of Kokytos, like the leaves
buffeted by the wind over the bright sheep-grazed headlands of Ida." -
Bacchylides, Fragment 5 (trans. Campbell)

"Let us beware lest the cursed Kerberos prevent us even from the
nethermost hell from delivering the goddess by his furious howling,
just as he did when on earth." - Aristophanes, "Peace" 315

"'O, you most shameless desperate ruffian, you O, villain, villain,
arrant vilest villain! Who seized our Kerberos by the throat, and
fled, and ran, and rushed, and bolted, haling of the dog, my charge!'"
- Aristophanes, "Frogs" 468

"On the promontory [of Tainaronin Lakonia] is a temple like a cave,
with a statue of Poseidon in front of it. Some of the Greek poets
state that Herakles brought up the Hound of Haides (Haidou kuna) here,
though there is no road that leads underground through the cave, and
it is not easy to believe that the gods possess any underground
dwelling where the souls collect. But Hekataios of Miletos gave a
plausible explanation, stating that a terrible serpent lived on
Tainaron, and was called the Hound of Hades, because any one bitten
was bound to die of the poison at once, and it was this snake, he
said, that was brought by Herakles to Eurystheus. But Homer, who was
the first to call the creature brought by Herakles the Hound of
Haides, did not give it a name or describe it as of manifold form, as
he did the Khimaira. Late poets gave the name Kerberos, and though in
other respects they made him resemble a dog, they say that he had
three heads. Homer, however, does not imply that he was a dog, the
friend of man, any more than if he called a real serpent the Hound of
Hades." - Pausanius, Description of Greece 3.25.5-7

"For that son's [Theseus'] death Medea mixed her poisoned aconite,
brought with her long ago from Scythicae's shores, said to be
slobbered by Cerberus. There is a cavern yawning dark and deep, and
there a falling track where Hero Tirynthius dragged struggling,
blinking, screwing up his eyes against the sunlight and the blinding
day, the hell-hound Cerberus, fast on a chain of adamant. His three
throats filled the air with triple barking, barks of frenzied rage,
and spattered the green meadows with white spume. This, so men think,
congealed and, nourished by the rich rank soil, gained poisonous
properties. And since they grow and thrive on hard bare rocks the farm
folk call them 'flintworts' - aconites. This poison Aegeus, by Medea's
guile, offered to Theseus as his enemy, father to son." - Ovid,
Metamorphoses 7.412

"Cerberus lying on the murky threshold perceived them, and reared up
with all his mouths wide agape, fierce even to entering folk; but now
his black neck swelled up all threatening, now had he torn and
scattered their bones upon the ground, had not the god [Hermes] with
branch Lethaean soothed his bristling frame and quelled with threefold
slumber the steely glare." - Statius, Theibad 2.27

"When you [Psykhe on her journey to the underworld] have crossed the
river [Akheron] and have advanced a little further, some aged women
weaving at the loom will beg you to lend a hand for a short time. But
you are not permitted to touch that either, for all these and many
other distractions are part of the ambush which Venus will set to
induce you to release one of the cakes from your hands. Do not imaging
that the loss of a mere barley cake is a trivial matter, for if you
relinquish either of them, the daylight of this world above will be
totally denied you. Posted there is a massive hound with a huge,
triple-formed head. This monstrous, fearsome brute confronts the dead
with thunderous barking, though his menaces are futile since he can do
them no harm. He keeps constant guard before the very threshold and
the dark hall of Proserpina, protecting that deserted abode of Dis.
You must disarm him by offering him a cake as his spoils. Then you can
easily pass him, and gain immediate access to Proserpina herself . . .
When you have obtained what she gives you, you must make your way
back, using the remaining cake to neutralize the dog's savagery." -
Apuleius, The Golden Ass 6.19

Today begins the International Week of The Dog, so I thought it
appropriate to celebrate that most famous of dogs, Kerberos. Kerberos
(or Cerberus) is the gigantic hound which guards the gates of Hades.
He is posted to prevent ghosts of the dead from leaving the
underworld. Kerberos is described as a three-headed dog with a
serpent's tail, a mane of snakes, and a lion's claws. Some say he has
fifty heads, though this number might have included the heads of his
serpentine mane. Woof!

Valete bene!

Cato



SOURCES

Apuleius, Aristophanes, Pausanius, Statius, Bacchylides, Hesiod, Wikipedia

Salve Marce Moravi,

I always enjoy learning more about the Religo. While I am not a
formal practitioner, the few rituals I performed while serving as
Consul were very moving for me.

Thank you for the informative response.

Vale,

G. Popillius Laenas

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "marcushoratius" <mhoratius@...>
wrote:

>
> Salve Marce Valeri
>
> If you are performing a formal ceremony that requires that it be
> performed ritus Romanus, and therefore capite velato, then you

ought

> to perform the ceremony while wearing a toga. I do not see where
> there would be any other way to perform such rites.
>
> Likewise, if performing a formal ritual in ritus Graecus, you

should

> don a toga. In spite of the name, ritus Graecus has nothing to do
> with a Greek manner of performing ritual, or even of rites

performed

> for deities that are generally assimilated with Greek deities.

Rites

> for Saturnus, for example, are properly performed in ritus Graecus

and

> in all ways these are performed entirely in a Roman manner. The key
> here, in both ritus Romanus and ritus Graecus, is when the ritutal

you

> are performing are *formal* rituals.
>
> In other rites, less formal, where you wouldn't necessarily don a
> toga, then there also wouldn't be a requirement to perform the rite
> capite velato. Ritual performed in your home would not have to be
> formal. If you wished to use a prayer shawl then, that is entirely

up

> to you. Prayer shawls or similar coverings are used in other
> traditions besides Judaism, and I see no reason why you couldn't

adopt

> such in your private practice.
>
> At the very least, once a year you should perform rites for the

Lares

> in ritus Romanus. Actually you should do so more than once a year,
> but once a year is a minimum. I would also say that a pious cultor
> Deorum Romani should perform formal ritual in ritus Romanus for the
> Capitoline triune no less than once a year, on the Ides of

September.

> There are other celebrations that a gentilis Romanus might be

expected

> to perform, although not necessarily in a formal manner. Therefore

my

> advice to you would be to go get yourself a toga virilis, which is

the

> proper kind of toga to don when performing most formal Roman

rituals.

>
> Vale et vade in pace Deorum
> M Moravius Piscinus
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "sstevemoore" <astrobear@> wrote:
> >
> > Salvete, omnes.
> >
> > I was wondering what suggestions my fellow citizens might have for
> > accommodating the practice of covering the head for prayer to

modern

> > circumstances? Our ancient forebears would pull part of their

togas

> > over their heads as needed. But I rarely wear a toga in my daily
> life.
> > Is it possible to adapt the Jewish prayer shawl to the Religio?
> >
> > Valete.
> >
> > M. Valerius Potitus
> >
>

Cato omnes SPD

Part II

Arma virumque - our
hero Aeneas holds
both arms as wide as he
possibly can;
"Think of an equus of
ultra-enormity
made for Poseidon's own
foam-bedecked hand!"

Arma virumque - the
great Horse sprang forth from the
desperate hopes of the
Greeks on the beach;
"timeo Danaos" -
counterintuitive,
but in this case a good
lesson to teach!

Arma virumque - the
great Gates they tore down to
welcome the mighty Horse
fashioned of wood;
its belly was hollow and
quite surreptitiously
stuffed full of Greeks -
who were up to no good.


Valete bene!

Cato

M. Hortensia M. Moravio C. Popillio spd;
Laenas,actually there's just the state cultus - the religio
romana, & everything else is a cultus privatus. Roman religion has
no concept of a 'formal practitioner' in the sense you mean. People
just worshipped their family gods, or ones that appealed or were
allied to their profession or philosophy...didn't matter. Unless it
had some big un-Roman aspect; like the knee-crawling Isis
worshippers! M. Moravius is right that all cives should have a toga;
it was the mark of citizenship and must wear on certain occasions.
bene valete
M. Hortensia Maior

>
> I always enjoy learning more about the Religo. While I am not a
> formal practitioner, the few rituals I performed while serving as
> Consul were very moving for me.
>
> Thank you for the informative response.
>
> Vale,
>
> G. Popillius Laenas
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "marcushoratius" <mhoratius@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Salve Marce Valeri
> >
> > If you are performing a formal ceremony that requires that it be
> > performed ritus Romanus, and therefore capite velato, then you
> ought
> > to perform the ceremony while wearing a toga. I do not see

where

> > there would be any other way to perform such rites.
> >
> > Likewise, if performing a formal ritual in ritus Graecus, you
> should
> > don a toga. In spite of the name, ritus Graecus has nothing to

do

> > with a Greek manner of performing ritual, or even of rites
> performed
> > for deities that are generally assimilated with Greek deities.
> Rites
> > for Saturnus, for example, are properly performed in ritus

Graecus

> and
> > in all ways these are performed entirely in a Roman manner. The

key

> > here, in both ritus Romanus and ritus Graecus, is when the

ritutal

> you
> > are performing are *formal* rituals.
> >
> > In other rites, less formal, where you wouldn't necessarily don

a

> > toga, then there also wouldn't be a requirement to perform the

rite

> > capite velato. Ritual performed in your home would not have to

be

> > formal. If you wished to use a prayer shawl then, that is

entirely

> up
> > to you. Prayer shawls or similar coverings are used in other
> > traditions besides Judaism, and I see no reason why you couldn't
> adopt
> > such in your private practice.
> >
> > At the very least, once a year you should perform rites for the
> Lares
> > in ritus Romanus. Actually you should do so more than once a

year,

> > but once a year is a minimum. I would also say that a pious

cultor

> > Deorum Romani should perform formal ritual in ritus Romanus for

the

> > Capitoline triune no less than once a year, on the Ides of
> September.
> > There are other celebrations that a gentilis Romanus might be
> expected
> > to perform, although not necessarily in a formal manner.

Therefore

> my
> > advice to you would be to go get yourself a toga virilis, which

is

> the
> > proper kind of toga to don when performing most formal Roman
> rituals.
> >
> > Vale et vade in pace Deorum
> > M Moravius Piscinus
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "sstevemoore" <astrobear@>

wrote:

> > >
> > > Salvete, omnes.
> > >
> > > I was wondering what suggestions my fellow citizens might have

for

> > > accommodating the practice of covering the head for prayer to
> modern
> > > circumstances? Our ancient forebears would pull part of their
> togas
> > > over their heads as needed. But I rarely wear a toga in my

daily

> > life.
> > > Is it possible to adapt the Jewish prayer shawl to the Religio?
> > >
> > > Valete.
> > >
> > > M. Valerius Potitus
> > >
> >
>

Salve Maior!

You say "that all cives should have a toga" but i was led to believe
that no honourable female would wear a toga.

Vale!

C. Octavia Agrippa

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> M. Hortensia M. Moravio C. Popillio spd;
> Laenas,actually there's just the state cultus - the religio
> romana, & everything else is a cultus privatus. Roman religion has
> no concept of a 'formal practitioner' in the sense you mean. People
> just worshipped their family gods, or ones that appealed or were
> allied to their profession or philosophy...didn't matter. Unless it
> had some big un-Roman aspect; like the knee-crawling Isis
> worshippers! M. Moravius is right that all cives should have a
toga;
> it was the mark of citizenship and must wear on certain occasions.
> bene valete
> M. Hortensia Maior
>
> >
> > I always enjoy learning more about the Religo. While I am not a
> > formal practitioner, the few rituals I performed while serving as
> > Consul were very moving for me.
> >
> > Thank you for the informative response.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > G. Popillius Laenas
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "marcushoratius" <mhoratius@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Salve Marce Valeri
> > >
> > > If you are performing a formal ceremony that requires that it
be
> > > performed ritus Romanus, and therefore capite velato, then you
> > ought
> > > to perform the ceremony while wearing a toga. I do not see
> where
> > > there would be any other way to perform such rites.
> > >
> > > Likewise, if performing a formal ritual in ritus Graecus, you
> > should
> > > don a toga. In spite of the name, ritus Graecus has nothing to
> do
> > > with a Greek manner of performing ritual, or even of rites
> > performed
> > > for deities that are generally assimilated with Greek deities.
> > Rites
> > > for Saturnus, for example, are properly performed in ritus
> Graecus
> > and
> > > in all ways these are performed entirely in a Roman manner. The
> key
> > > here, in both ritus Romanus and ritus Graecus, is when the
> ritutal
> > you
> > > are performing are *formal* rituals.
> > >
> > > In other rites, less formal, where you wouldn't necessarily don
> a
> > > toga, then there also wouldn't be a requirement to perform the
> rite
> > > capite velato. Ritual performed in your home would not have to
> be
> > > formal. If you wished to use a prayer shawl then, that is
> entirely
> > up
> > > to you. Prayer shawls or similar coverings are used in other
> > > traditions besides Judaism, and I see no reason why you
couldn't
> > adopt
> > > such in your private practice.
> > >
> > > At the very least, once a year you should perform rites for the
> > Lares
> > > in ritus Romanus. Actually you should do so more than once a
> year,
> > > but once a year is a minimum. I would also say that a pious
> cultor
> > > Deorum Romani should perform formal ritual in ritus Romanus for
> the
> > > Capitoline triune no less than once a year, on the Ides of
> > September.
> > > There are other celebrations that a gentilis Romanus might be
> > expected
> > > to perform, although not necessarily in a formal manner.
> Therefore
> > my
> > > advice to you would be to go get yourself a toga virilis, which
> is
> > the
> > > proper kind of toga to don when performing most formal Roman
> > rituals.
> > >
> > > Vale et vade in pace Deorum
> > > M Moravius Piscinus
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "sstevemoore" <astrobear@>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Salvete, omnes.
> > > >
> > > > I was wondering what suggestions my fellow citizens might
have
> for
> > > > accommodating the practice of covering the head for prayer to
> > modern
> > > > circumstances? Our ancient forebears would pull part of their
> > togas
> > > > over their heads as needed. But I rarely wear a toga in my
> daily
> > > life.
> > > > Is it possible to adapt the Jewish prayer shawl to the
Religio?
> > > >
> > > > Valete.
> > > >
> > > > M. Valerius Potitus
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

It is true the Need is father of the movement.
And sometimes Iove thunder over us.
He, who moves, may not be always right
And maybe the thunderer could have something to aim.

L. Arminius Faustus

--
Valete bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus

"Vigilando, agendo, bene consulendo, prospera omnia cedunt" - Salustius


PS - Damn gmail and its all time changing passwords politics. Forget
it once, or mistake it three times thinking on an old one, neither the
Oracle of Delphus can help you.

Salve Gaia Octavia,

Gaia Octavia Agrippa <RPF.21@...> writes:

> i was led to believe
> that no honourable female would wear a toga.

That would certainly have been true in the late republic or the
principate. At earlier times, respectable women did -- we think --
wear togas. But for whatever reason the toga became unfashionable for
women sometime around ~200 BCE.

Coming up to the present day, in the 28th century auc, I think it's
more a matter of personal choice. There's no religious reason for
women to wear the toga, but I know of no religious reason for them to
avoid it. If you're reenacting, then you should go with whatever the
custom of the time you're reenacting was.

Vale,

CN-EQVIT-MARINVS

In a message dated 9/22/2007 3:28:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
RPF.21@... writes:

You say "that all cives should have a toga" but i was led to believe
that no honourable female would wear a toga.


True. In the principate, prostitutes wore togas as a badge of their
profession.

However, we have female magistrates, so by Roman tradition, they must be
togate.

Q. Fabius Maximus



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Gaia Octavia;
& welcome to Nova Roma!
prostitutes wore red togas during the republic & young girls of
good family wore the toga until they reached maturity. With marriage
it was the tunica,stola and palla. I don't know what an 'innupta'
wore. Julia Sebesta & Laura Bonfante's work on Roman Clothing would
be the best to look at.
I wear the toga, as a sign of citizenship, the ability to be a
magistrate. Clothing has profound symbolic meaning. But it doesn't
necessarily follow that you must in NR. Sorry that I didn't make
that point more clear.
M. Hortensia Maior
producer 'Vox Romana' podcast
website address is http://www.insulaumbra.com/voxromana/ address
for RSS syndication is
http://www.insulaumbra.com/voxromana/podcast.xml .

> > i was led to believe
> > that no honourable female would wear a toga.
>
> That would certainly have been true in the late republic or the
> principate. At earlier times, respectable women did -- we think --

> wear togas. But for whatever reason the toga became unfashionable

for

> women sometime around ~200 BCE.
>
> Coming up to the present day, in the 28th century auc, I think

it's

> more a matter of personal choice. There's no religious reason

for

> women to wear the toga, but I know of no religious reason for them

to

> avoid it. If you're reenacting, then you should go with whatever

the

> custom of the time you're reenacting was.
>
> Vale,
>
> CN-EQVIT-MARINVS
>

>
> A. Tullia Scholastica Q. Fabio Maximo C. Octaviae Agrippae Cn. Equitio Marino
> M. Hortensiae Maiori quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
>
>
>
> In a message dated 9/22/2007 3:28:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> RPF.21@... <mailto:RPF.21%40hotmail.com> writes:
>
> You say "that all cives should have a toga" but i was led to believe
> that no honourable female would wear a toga.
>
> True. In the principate, prostitutes wore togas as a badge of their
> profession.
>
> However, we have female magistrates, so by Roman tradition, they must be
> togate.
>
> ATS: This one will remain content with her tunica and palla. If I had a
> toga, it would be for demonstration purposes at reenactments, lectures, etc.,
> as are some other goodies I have, such as garum bottle, poculum, and pugio,
> inter alia.
>
> Maior: It may well be that innuptae wore tunicae and pallae. The chances
> are good that they did not run around naked, or in togas over subligacula a la
> Cato. I suspect that the toga was worn only by prepubescent girls in the
> early days; after puberty, it might have been considered less honorable.
> Sebesta and Bonfante don¹t have much to say about this, and neither does
> Croom.
>
> Q. Fabius Maximus
>
> Valete.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodiernus dies est ante diem IX Kalendas Octobris; haec dies
comitialis est.

"Moreover, they decreed that the foundation of the shrine of Julius
should be adorned with the beaks of the captured ships and that a
festival should be held every four years in honour of Octavius; that
there should also be a thanksgiving on his birthday and on the
anniversary of the announcement of his victory; also that when he
should enter the city the Vestal Virgins and the senate and the people
with their wives and children should go out to meet him. But it would
be quite superfluous to go on and mention the prayers, the images, the
privilege of the front sea, and all the other honours of the sort. At
the beginning, then, they not only voted him these honours but also
either took down or effaced the memorials of Antony, declared the day
on which he had been born accursed, and forbade the use of the surname
Marcus by any of his kind. When, however, they learned of Antony's
death, the news of which came while Cicero, the son of Cicero, was
consul for a part of the year, some held that it had come to pass not
without divine direction, since the consul's father had owed his death
chiefly to Antony; and they voted to Caesar crowns and thanksgiving in
great number and granted him the privilege of celebrating another
triumph, this time over the Egyptians. For neither on the previous
occasion nor at this time did they mention by name Antony and the
other Romans who had been vanquished with him and thus imply that it
was proper to celebrate their defeat." - Cassius Dio, "Roman History"
LI.19.2-5

"It may readily be imagined how much he was beloved because of this
admirable conduct. I say nothing of decrees of the senate, which might
seem to have been dictated by necessity or by awe. The Roman knights
celebrated his birthday of their own accord by common consent, and
always for two successive days. All sorts and conditions of men, in
fulfillment of a vow for his welfare, each year threw a small coin
into the Lacus Curtius, and also brought a New Year's gift to the
Capitol on the Kalends of January, even when he was away from Rome.
With this sum he bought and dedicated in each of the city wards costly
statues of the gods, such as Apollo Sandalarius, Jupiter Tragoedus,
and others. To rebuild his house on the Palatine, which had been
destroyed by fire, the veterans, the guilds, the tribes, and even
individuals of other conditions gladly contributed money, each
according to his means; but he merely took a little from each pile as
a matter of form, not more than a denarius from any of them. On his
return from a province they received him not only with prayers and
good wishes, but with songs. It was the rule, too, that whenever he
entered the city, no one should suffer punishment." - Suetonius, "Life
of Augustus" 57

"And to celebrate the birthday of Augustus, Iullus, the son of Antony,
who was praetor, gave games in the Circus and a slaughter of wild
beasts, and entertained both the emperor and the senate, in pursuance
of a decree of that body, upon the Capitol...While Drusus was thus
occupied, the festival belonging to his praetorship was celebrated in
the most costly manner; and the birthday of Augustus was honoured by
the slaughter of wild beasts both in the Circus and in many other
parts of the city. This was done almost every year by one of the
praetors then in office, even if not authorised by a decree; but the
Augustalia, which are still observed, were then for the first time
celebrated in pursuance of a decree...Other votes in regard to him
were, that his image should not be borne in procession at anybody's
funeral, that the consuls should celebrate his birthday with games
like the Ludi Martiales, and that the tribunes, as being sacrosanct,
were to have charge of the Augustalia. These officials conducted
everything in the customary manner — even wearing the triumphal garb
at the horse-race — except that they did not ride in the chariot.
Besides this, Livia held a private festival in his honour for three
days in the palace, and this ceremony is still continued down to the
present day by whoever is emperor." Dio Cassius, "Roman History"
LIV.26.2, 34.1-2; LVI.46.4-5

Today games were celebrated in honour of Augustus, at Rome and in
other parts of the Roman empire. After the battle of Actium, a
quinquennial festival was instituted; and the birthday of Augustus, as
well as that on which the victory was announced at Rome, were regarded
as festival days. In the provinces, also, in addition to temples and
altars, quinquennial games were instituted in almost every town. The
Roman equites were accustomed of their own accord to celebrate the
birthday of Augustus in every alternate year; and the praetors, before
any decree had been passed for the purpose, were also in the habit of
exhibiting games every year in honour of Augustus. It was not,
however, till B.C. 11, that the festival on the birth-day of Augustus
was formally established by a decree of the senate (Dion Cass.
liv.34), and it is this festival which is usually meant when the
Augustales or Augustalia are mentioned. It was celebrated IX Id.
Octobr. At the death of Augustus, this festival assumed a more solemn
character, was added to the Fasti, and celebrated to his honour as a
god. Hence, Tacitus speaks of it as first established in the reign of
Tiberius. It was henceforth exhibited annually in the circus, at first
by the tribunes of the plebs, at the commencement of the reign of
Tiberius, but afterwards by the praetor peregrinus. These games
continued to be exhibited in the time of Dion Cassius, that is, about
AD 230.

Today is (in the Northern Hemisphere) the Autumnal Equinox, and the
Sun enters the Zodiacal Sign of Libra.

Valete bene!

Cato



SOURCES

Smith's Dictionary, Wikipedia, Cassius Dio, Seutonius

M. Hortensia Q. Fabio C. Octaviae Cn. Equitio A. Tulliae spd;
Please let's keep to the topic, nudity has nothing to do
with the symbols of Roman clothing. Heroic nudity was common in
Greece but not Rome.

There is no need to speculate about the this issue. This is a
problem with magistrates who do not know the Religio...

Young boys and young girls of free birth until puberty both wore
the toga praetexta. At the Liberalia at the age of majority boys
would donate their toga at the temple of Liber and then wear the
toga virilis.

Young girls at puberty would go to the ancient temple of Fortuna, at
the Forum Boarium and also donate their togas. Usually they then
were married.

Women's adult clothing revolved around womens' marital status, which
is meaningless today. Since Romans were very conservative and women
wore the toga, and we act as magistrates in NR, women also should
proudly wear the toga.
M. Hortensia Maior
Producer 'Vox Romana' podcast
s http://www.insulaumbra.com/voxromana/ . The address for RSS
syndication is http://www.insulaumbra.com/voxromana/podcast.xml .

PS. After I go to the library I will write about this at the
NRwiki . This so far is my Fortuna article:
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Fortuna
There were about 12 temples in Rome:) work-in-progress

> > Maior: It may well be that innuptae wore tunicae and

pallae. The chances

> > are good that they did not run around naked, or in togas over

subligacula a la

> > Cato. I suspect that the toga was worn only by prepubescent

girls in the

> > early days; after puberty, it might have been considered less

honorable.

> > Sebesta and Bonfante don¹t have much to say about this, and

neither does

> > Croom.
> >

> A. Tullia Scholastica quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque bonae voluntatis
> S.P.D.
>
>
>
> M. Hortensia Q. Fabio C. Octaviae Cn. Equitio A. Tulliae spd;
> Please let's keep to the topic, nudity has nothing to do
> with the symbols of Roman clothing.
>
> ATS: On the other hand, nudity is included in studies of clothing. It
> also happens that Cato did wear the subligaculum and toga, not the tunica
> (that newfangled invention), and that Spartan boys ceased wearing the khiton
> around age 7, wearing only the chlamys thereafter. Doric women wore the open
> peplos with nothing underneath it (or over it, as was normal with the peplos).
>
> Heroic nudity was common in
> Greece but not Rome.
>
> ATS: Indeed.
>
> There is no need to speculate about the this issue. This is a
> problem with magistrates who do not know the Religio...
>
> ATS: And what, pray, does the Religio have to do with this? Apart from
> ritual requirements, such as capite velato, what does the RR have to do with
> the price of tea in China? This is a part of the study of clothing, not of
> the RR per se. Does Larissa Bonfante practice the Religio? If so, she hid it
> well when she lectured our local chapter of the AIA...
>
> Young boys and young girls of free birth until puberty both wore
> the toga praetexta. At the Liberalia at the age of majority boys
> would donate their toga at the temple of Liber and then wear the
> toga virilis.
>
> ATS: Yes.
>
> Young girls at puberty would go to the ancient temple of Fortuna, at
> the Forum Boarium and also donate their togas. Usually they then
> were married.
>
> ATS: Usually does not mean always.
>
> Women's adult clothing revolved around womens' marital status, which
> is meaningless today.
>
> ATS: I rather suspect that some would contest that assertion. Some women
> consider their marital status quite important.
>
> Since Romans were very conservative
>
> ATS: That they were.
>
>
> and women
> wore the toga,
>
> ATS: Very early on they did...and in childhood.
>
>
> and we act as magistrates in NR,
>
> ATS: Indeed we do...though certain conservatives think we should not even
> be allowed to vote.
>
>
> women also should
> proudly wear the toga.
>
>
> ATS: Somehow I think that this does not necessarily follow from the
> above. Other than you, I have yet to see any female quiris togate, though I
> understand the Diana also dons the toga.
>
> M. Hortensia Maior
> Producer 'Vox Romana' podcast
> s http://www.insulaumbra.com/voxromana/ . The address for RSS
> syndication is http://www.insulaumbra.com/voxromana/podcast.xml .
>
> PS. After I go to the library I will write about this at the
> NRwiki . This so far is my Fortuna article:
> http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Fortuna
> There were about 12 temples in Rome:) work-in-progress
>
> Valete.
>
>
>
>>> > > Maior: It may well be that innuptae wore tunicae and
> pallae. The chances
>>> > > are good that they did not run around naked, or in togas over
> subligacula a la
>>> > > Cato. I suspect that the toga was worn only by prepubescent
> girls in the
>>> > > early days; after puberty, it might have been considered less
> honorable.
>>> > > Sebesta and Bonfante don¹t have much to say about this, and
> neither does
>>> > > Croom.
>>> > >
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

M. Hortensia Scholasticae quiritibus spd;
this is a profoundly important discussion as wearing the
toga is part of the mos maiorum - Roman national tradition.

Below is part of the preamble of our Constitution:

"As the spiritual heir to the ancient Roman Republic and Empire,
Nova Roma shall endeavor to exist, in all manners practical and
acceptable, as the modern restoration of the ancient Roman Republic.
The culture, religion, and society of Nova Roma shall be patterned
upon those of ancient Rome"

So we are devoted to reviving our national tradition. Wearing the
toga was a deep part of the Roman mos maiorum. Virgil says in "The
Aeneid"
Romanos rerum dominos, gentemque togatem
lords of the world, toga-wearing Romans Book 1.282-3

All magistrates in Roma Antiqua wore the toga praetexta. To wear a
pallium, palla was unimaginable:

Idem cum Graeco pallio amictus intrasset - carent enim togae iure,
quibus aqua et igni interdictum est -,

He himself would be clothed like a Greek in a pallium, for those
who have been barred from fire and water are without the right of
the toga .

Pliny the younger, Book 4, letter 11, line 3
http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/pliny.ep4.html

When a magistrate takes the auspices, he put a fold of the toga over
his head so he does not see a bad omen.

This is not a fashion discussion, but about the mos maiorum we are
dedicated to reviving and living as Nova Romans.

In the Republican calendar, Liber Pater an ancient Roman god of
germination was celebrated during the Liberalia when boys would go
to his temple & then trade the toga of youth, the toga praetexta for
that of manhood; the toga virilis. Girls would go to the ancient
Temple of Fortuna, founded by king Servius Tullius, on the Matralia,
another Republican feria and lay their toga praetexta.

In fact here is a list of festivals that the Collegium Pontificarum
recommeds the Senate observe:
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Responsum_Pontificum_de_Feriis_MMDCCLX_%
28Nova_Roma%29
The Matralia is on that list. Magistates would wear togas at
these festivals.

Festivals, coming of age, adulthood, magisterial office all have to
do with the Roman state and religion. They are intertwined. Toga-
wearing is intimately connected with office, religion, status, what
it is to 'be' a Roman.
M. Hortensia Maior
NRwiki articles on:

Liber Pater http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Liber
Fasti Festivals for this year:
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Fasti_MMDCCLX
Toga: http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Toga

: And what, pray, does the Religio have to do with this? Apart from

> > ritual requirements, such as capite velato, what does the RR

have to do with

> > the price of tea in China?

Salvete.

Video: Atia took a taurobolium.
http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=7vebPrZlurI

¿A hundred-year anachronism?
In the first Rome episode, when Atia took a shower in bull’s blood. This
ritual was called the taurobolium; it was practiced by the eunuch priests
of Cybele. The sacrifice of a bull with the blood dripping down through a
gate onto the worshiper below.

¿Was OK. the architecture of Cybele temple in the Palatino to taurobolium
ritual in the first century A.D.?

Valete.
C. Minicius Agrippa

OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodiernus dies est ante diem VIII Kalendas Octobris; haec dies
comitialis est.

"Of the origin of the Vitellii different and widely varying accounts
are given, some saying that the family was ancient and noble, others
that it was new and obscure, if not of mean extraction. I should
believe that these came respectively from the flatterers and
detractors of the emperor, were it not for a difference of opinion
about the standing of the family at a considerably earlier date. We
have a book of Quintus Elogius addressed to Quintus Vitellius,
quaestor of the Deified Augustus, in which it is written that the
Vitellii were sprung from Faunus, king of the Aborigines, and
Vitellia, who was worshipped as a goddess in many places; and that
they ruled in all Latium. That the surviving members of the family
moved from the Sabine district to Rome and were enrolled among the
patricians. That traces of this stock endured long afterwards in the
Vitellian Road, running from the Janiculum all the way to the sea, as
well as in a colony of the same name, which in ancient days the family
had asked the privilege of defending against the Aequicoli with troops
raised from their own line. That when afterwards a force was sent into
Apulia at the time of the Samnite war, some of the Vitellii settled at
Nuceria, and that after a long time their descendants returned to the
city and resumed their place in the senatorial order.

The emperor Aulus Vitellius, son of Lucius, was born on the eighth day
before the Kalends of October...in the consulship of Drusus Caesar and
Norbanus Flaccus. His parents were so aghast at his horoscope as
announced by the astrologers, that his father tried his utmost, while
he lived, to prevent the assignment of any province to his son; and
when he was sent to the legions and hailed as emperor, his mother
immediately mourned over him as lost. He spent his boyhood and early
youth at Capreae among the wantons of Tiberius, being branded for all
time with the nickname Spintria and suspected of having been the cause
of his father's first advancement at the expense of his own chastity."
- Seutonius, "Life of Vitellius" 1, 3

"Vitellius, addicted as he was to luxury and licentiousness, no longer
cared for anything else either human or divine. He had indeed always
been inclined to idle about in taverns and gaming-houses, and devote
himself to dancers and charioteers; and he used to spend incalculable
sums on such pursuits, with the result that he had many creditors.
Now, when he was in a position of so great authority, his wantonness
only increased, and he was squandering money most of the day and night
alike. He was insatiate in gorging himself, and was constantly
vomiting up what he ate, being nourished by the mere passage of the
food. Yet this practice was all that enabled him to hold out; for his
fellow-banqueters fared very badly. For he was always inviting many
of the foremost men to his table and he was frequently entertained at
their houses. It was in this connexion that one of them, Vibius
Crispus, uttered a very witty remark. Having been compelled for some
days by sickness to absent himself from the convivial board, he said:
"If I had not fallen ill, I surely should have perished." The entire
period of his reign was nothing but a series of carousals and revels.
All the most costly viands were brought from as far as the Ocean (not
to say farther) and drawn from both land and sea, and were prepared I
so costly a fashion that even now certain cakes and other dishes are
named Vitellian, after him.

And yet why should one name over all the details, when it is admitted
by all alike that during the period of his reign he expended
900,000,000 sesterces on dinners? There soon was a famine in all
costly articles of food, yet it was absolutely imperative that they
should be provided. For example, he once caused a dish to be made
that cost a million sesterces, into which he put a mixture of tongues
and brains and livers of certain fishes and birds. As it was
impossible to make so large a vessel of pottery, it was made of silver
and remained in except for some time, being regard somewhat in the
light of a votive offering, until Hadrian finally set eyes on it and
melted it down." - Cassius Dio, "Roman History" LXV.2-3

Today is the birthday of the emperor Aulus Vitellius Germanicus
Augustus. He owed his elevation to the throne to Caecina and Valens,
commanders of two legions on the Rhine. Through these two men a
military revolution was speedily accomplished; they refused to renew
their vows of allegiance to Emperor Galba on the kalends of Ianuarius,
AD 69, and early in 69 Vitellius was proclaimed emperor at Colonia
Agrippinensis (Cologne) More accurately, he was proclaimed emperor of
the armies of Germania Inferior and Superior. The armies of Gaul,
Brittania and Raetia sided with them shortly afterwards. By the time
that they marched on Rome, however, it was Otho, and not Galba, whom
they had to confront.

In fact, he was never acknowledged as emperor by the entire Roman
world, though at Rome the Senate accepted him and decreed to him the
usual imperial honours. He advanced into Italy at the head of a
licentious and rough soldiery, and Rome became the scene of riot and
massacre, gladiatorial shows and extravagant feasting. To reward his
victorious legionaries, Vitellius disbanded the existing Praetorian
Guard and installed his own men instead.

In Quinctilis of 69, Vitellius learnt that the armies of the eastern
provinces had proclaimed a rival emperor; their commander, Titus
Flavius Vespasianus. As soon as it was known that the armies of the
East, Dalmatia, and Illyricum had declared for Vespasian, Vitellius,
deserted by many of his adherents, would have resigned the title of
emperor.

It is said that he awaited Vespasian's army at Mevania. It was said
that the terms of resignation had actually been agreed upon with
Marcus Antonius Primus, the commander of the sixth legion serving in
Pannonia and one of Vespasian's chief supporters, but the praetorians
refused to allow him to carry out the agreement, and forced him to
return to the palace, when he was on his way to deposit the insignia
of empire in the Temple of Concord. On the entrance of Vespasian's
troops into Rome he was dragged out of some miserable hiding-place
(according to Tacitus a door-keeper's lodge), driven to the fatal
Gemonian stairs, and there struck down. His body was thrown into the
Tiber. "Yet I was once your emperor," were the last and, as far as we
know, the noblest words of Vitellius.


Valete bene!

Cato



SOURCES

Cassius Dio, Seutonius, Wikipedia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "C. MINICIUS AGRIPPA" <csm@...> wrote:

>
> Salvete.
>
> Video: Atia took a taurobolium.
> http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=7vebPrZlurI
>
> ¿A hundred-year anachronism?
> In the first Rome episode, when Atia took a shower in bull’s

blood. This

> ritual was called the taurobolium; it was practiced by the eunuch

priests

> of Cybele. The sacrifice of a bull with the blood dripping down

through a

> gate onto the worshiper below.
>
> ¿Was OK. the architecture of Cybele temple in the Palatino to

taurobolium

> ritual in the first century A.D.?

The taurobolium or bull sacrifice was associated with the cult of
Mithra (Mithras) before it was associated with the cult of the great
Cybele

in the Mithra cult it was type of purification ritual for the devotee
who stood in a pit into which the blood from a freshly slaughtered
bull dripped all over him.

Marcus Cornelius Felix
Sacerdos Templi Mercurius
Sacerdotus Provincia America Boreoccidentalis

>
> Valete.
> C. Minicius Agrippa
>

Salvete, omnes.

Here's an interesting blog from "Hadrian's Forum" about the conspiracy
of Catiline--with comparisons to today in the United States.

Valete,

M. Valerius Potitus

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/9/23/15130/0658

Fl. Galerius Aurelianus S.P.D.



I have found that my original Republican toga was too long to be easily managed (21 feet long?x 5 feet wide) and had it cut down to a more managable 12'x5' size.? I even had enough left over for a new tunica.? Historically, the toga virilis became less and less common during the late Republic and early Principate so that laws had to be promulgated to ensure it continued to be worn appropriately.? It has been said that the only time many Romans wore a toga was when they were enrolled as citizens at the Liberalia and when they died.? Many Plebs or "tunicatti" would use their a fold of their pallium or sagum in the absence of the toga at the celebration of a fasti; according to both literary and artisitic documentation.

However, when I rise in the morning to perform my daily lararium rite or the rites at the Kalends, Nones, or Ides, I make use of a variety of head coverings including the hood of a robe or a shawl.? Of course, one should always offer a piaculum to Dii Immortales, Lares, and Penates to insure that nothing gives offense including one's head covering.

Valete.


-----Original Message-----
From: Maior <rory12001@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 5:51 pm
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Covering the Head for Prayer







M. Hortensia M. Moravio C. Popillio spd;
Laenas,actually there's just the state cultus - the religio
romana, & everything else is a cultus privatus. Roman religion has
no concept of a 'formal practitioner' in the sense you mean. People
just worshipped their family gods, or ones that appealed or were
allied to their profession or philosophy...didn't matter. Unless it
had some big un-Roman aspect; like the knee-crawling Isis
worshippers! M. Moravius is right that all cives should have a toga;
it was the mark of citizenship and must wear on certain occasions.
bene valete
M. Hortensia Maior

>
> I always enjoy learning more about the Religo. While I am not a
> formal practitioner, the few rituals I performed while serving as
> Consul were very moving for me.
>
> Thank you for the informative response.
>
> Vale,
>
> G. Popillius Laenas
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "marcushoratius" <mhoratius@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Salve Marce Valeri
> >
> > If you are performing a formal ceremony that requires that it be
> > performed ritus Romanus, and therefore capite velato, then you
> ought
> > to perform the ceremony while wearing a toga. I do not see

where

> > there would be any other way to perform such rites.
> >
> > Likewise, if performing a formal ritual in ritus Graecus, you
> should
> > don a toga. In spite of the name, ritus Graecus has nothing to

do

> > with a Greek manner of performing ritual, or even of rites
> performed
> > for deities that are generally assimilated with Greek deities.
> Rites
> > for Saturnus, for example, are properly performed in ritus

Graecus

> and
> > in all ways these are performed entirely in a Roman manner. The

key

> > here, in both ritus Romanus and ritus Graecus, is when the

ritutal

> you
> > are performing are *formal* rituals.
> >
> > In other rites, less formal, where you wouldn't necessarily don

a

> > toga, then there also wouldn't be a requirement to perform the

rite

> > capite velato. Ritual performed in your home would not have to

be

> > formal. If you wished to use a prayer shawl then, that is

entirely

> up
> > to you. Prayer shawls or similar coverings are used in other
> > traditions besides Judaism, and I see no reason why you couldn't
> adopt
> > such in your private practice.
> >
> > At the very least, once a year you should perform rites for the
> Lares
> > in ritus Romanus. Actually you should do so more than once a

year,

> > but once a year is a minimum. I would also say that a pious

cultor

> > Deorum Romani should perform formal ritual in ritus Romanus for

the

> > Capitoline triune no less than once a year, on the Ides of
> September.
> > There are other celebrations that a gentilis Romanus might be
> expected
> > to perform, although not necessarily in a formal manner.

Therefore

> my
> > advice to you would be to go get yourself a toga virilis, which

is

> the
> > proper kind of toga to don when performing most formal Roman
> rituals.
> >
> > Vale et vade in pace Deorum
> > M Moravius Piscinus
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "sstevemoore" <astrobear@>

wrote:

> > >
> > > Salvete, omnes.
> > >
> > > I was wondering what suggestions my fellow citizens might have

for

> > > accommodating the practice of covering the head for prayer to
> modern
> > > circumstances? Our ancient forebears would pull part of their
> togas
> > > over their heads as needed. But I rarely wear a toga in my

daily

> > life.
> > > Is it possible to adapt the Jewish prayer shawl to the Religio?
> > >
> > > Valete.
> > >
> > > M. Valerius Potitus
> > >
> >
>

________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Women should substitute a stola for the toga as a head covering.



Fl. G. A.


-----Original Message-----
From: Gaia Octavia Agrippa <RPF.21@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 5:11 am
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Covering the Head for Prayer







Salve Maior!

You say "that all cives should have a toga" but i was led to believe
that no honourable female would wear a toga.

Vale!

C. Octavia Agrippa

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> M. Hortensia M. Moravio C. Popillio spd;
> Laenas,actually there's just the state cultus - the religio
> romana, & everything else is a cultus privatus. Roman religion has
> no concept of a 'formal practitioner' in the sense you mean. People
> just worshipped their family gods, or ones that appealed or were
> allied to their profession or philosophy...didn't matter. Unless it
> had some big un-Roman aspect; like the knee-crawling Isis
> worshippers! M. Moravius is right that all cives should have a
toga;
> it was the mark of citizenship and must wear on certain occasions.
> bene valete
> M. Hortensia Maior
>
> >
> > I always enjoy learning more about the Religo. While I am not a
> > formal practitioner, the few rituals I performed while serving as
> > Consul were very moving for me.
> >
> > Thank you for the informative response.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > G. Popillius Laenas
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "marcushoratius" <mhoratius@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Salve Marce Valeri
> > >
> > > If you are performing a formal ceremony that requires that it
be
> > > performed ritus Romanus, and therefore capite velato, then you
> > ought
> > > to perform the ceremony while wearing a toga. I do not see
> where
> > > there would be any other way to perform such rites.
> > >
> > > Likewise, if performing a formal ritual in ritus Graecus, you
> > should
> > > don a toga. In spite of the name, ritus Graecus has nothing to
> do
> > > with a Greek manner of performing ritual, or even of rites
> > performed
> > > for deities that are generally assimilated with Greek deities.
> > Rites
> > > for Saturnus, for example, are properly performed in ritus
> Graecus
> > and
> > > in all ways these are performed entirely in a Roman manner. The
> key
> > > here, in both ritus Romanus and ritus Graecus, is when the
> ritutal
> > you
> > > are performing are *formal* rituals.
> > >
> > > In other rites, less formal, where you wouldn't necessarily don
> a
> > > toga, then there also wouldn't be a requirement to perform the
> rite
> > > capite velato. Ritual performed in your home would not have to
> be
> > > formal. If you wished to use a prayer shawl then, that is
> entirely
> > up
> > > to you. Prayer shawls or similar coverings are used in other
> > > traditions besides Judaism, and I see no reason why you
couldn't
> > adopt
> > > such in your private practice.
> > >
> > > At the very least, once a year you should perform rites for the
> > Lares
> > > in ritus Romanus. Actually you should do so more than once a
> year,
> > > but once a year is a minimum. I would also say that a pious
> cultor
> > > Deorum Romani should perform formal ritual in ritus Romanus for
> the
> > > Capitoline triune no less than once a year, on the Ides of
> > September.
> > > There are other celebrations that a gentilis Romanus might be
> > expected
> > > to perform, although not necessarily in a formal manner.
> Therefore
> > my
> > > advice to you would be to go get yourself a toga virilis, which
> is
> > the
> > > proper kind of toga to don when performing most formal Roman
> > rituals.
> > >
> > > Vale et vade in pace Deorum
> > > M Moravius Piscinus
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "sstevemoore" <astrobear@>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Salvete, omnes.
> > > >
> > > > I was wondering what suggestions my fellow citizens might
have
> for
> > > > accommodating the practice of covering the head for prayer to
> > modern
> > > > circumstances? Our ancient forebears would pull part of their
> > togas
> > > > over their heads as needed. But I rarely wear a toga in my
> daily
> > > life.
> > > > Is it possible to adapt the Jewish prayer shawl to the
Religio?
> > > >
> > > > Valete.
> > > >
> > > > M. Valerius Potitus
> > > >
> > >
> >
>





________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Agrippa;
they had the taurobolium in Rome to show just how 'different'
pagans were. You might enjoy the interview with the show's writers
in this Beliefnet article.
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/209/story_20922_1.html

The taurobolium never took place on the Palantine; Prof. Pensabene
is doing great archeological work there. There is a deep pool to
wash the goddesses' cult statue. Here is a link to a line drawing
from our own Magna Mater project:)
http://www.magnamaterproject.org/en/home.php

The taurobolium is exactly on the site of the 'Vatican'. This is the
site where the Galli priests lived. The galli, the eunuch priests,
would tell fortunes for money 'vaticinus: prophetic.' So I'm sure
the entire site has been destroyed or altered.

There are inscriptions, but no real work has been done on the early
taurobolia. There is the book: "The Taurobolium" by Robert Duthoy,
Brill, 1969. But it is so dated. So work is going on in Anatolia, so
I think this will be the next wave of research. I hope so!
bene vale in pacem deorum
Marca Hortensia Maior

PS: I'll put in the best MM books over at this reading list at the
NRwiki later today
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Reading_list_for_the_cultus_deorum

>
> Video: Atia took a taurobolium.
> http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=7vebPrZlurI
>
> ¿A hundred-year anachronism?
>>
> ¿Was OK. the architecture of Cybele temple in the Palatino to

taurobolium

> ritual in the first century A.D.?
>
> Valete.
> C. Minicius Agrippa
>

Q. Valerius Poplicola M. Hortensiae Maiori SD:

A quick side-note:

The mos maiorum is and always has been subject to change depending on the
times in which the Romani lived. At one point, it was against the custom of
the elders for women to vote, hold offices, live being sub manu or sine
tutore, serve in the military, or wear past puberty a toga. An appeal to the
mos maiorum then does not help your case for all Novi Romani women to wear
togae. You can't pick and choose and claim that it supports you when in
reality, it doesn't.

You can appeal to equality or try to redefine the mos maiorum to bring it
into the XXI s. post Augustum, but you can't appeal to the ancient mos
maiorum.

Vale ab viro qui in rei medio manet.

On 9/23/07, Maior <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> This is not a fashion discussion, but about the mos maiorum we are
> dedicated to reviving and living as Nova Romans.
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve,
Nova-Roma!
Every name shows an order, but
our surname should come from our mothers: mater semper certa!
How many nations (or micronations...) have mother's surnames now?
Might we name our nova-roman Nomen considering our real familia and gens?
But every name can be a joke.
Vale
ACC


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve,
Very interesting. Thanks for sharing :)

Vale,
D. Iulius Caesar

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "sstevemoore" <astrobear@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete, omnes.
>
> Here's an interesting blog from "Hadrian's Forum" about the conspiracy
> of Catiline--with comparisons to today in the United States.
>
> Valete,
>
> M. Valerius Potitus
>
> http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/9/23/15130/0658
>

M. Hortensia Q. Valerio Poplicolae spd;
the Romans were quite conservative but also pragmatic. They
did not want to disturb the Pax Deorum with unecessary innovation.
Now if we take the case of the toga. I pointed out that women wore
it until 200 B.C. the same as men, that young girls just like young
boy still wore it until puberty. So there is a long and Roman
history of women wearing the toga.

Now I also quoted that toga-wearing was considered the mark of being
Roman. That all magistrates had to wear togas at religious
festivities and official occasions; appearing in the Senate.

In Nova Roma today, which is now approx 2,000 from the Republic.
Women are magistrates, priestesses and full citizens. Now since
women have a history of toga wearing & it is unimaginable for a
magistrate or religious official not to wear a toga, it makes sense
for women to adhere to the mos maiorum and wear the toga.
bene vale
M. Hortensia Maior
Producer 'Vox Romana'podcast

On a side note, I wore mine at a NR meeting 3 years ago in New York
City and was shocked by the admiration and questions I received by
utter strangers. Frankly I thought they would laugh at me. Our
ancestors were wiser than we; the toga is a noble garment which
invites respect. When I go to Rome this spring I surely will wear my
toga.

>
> A quick side-note:
>
> The mos maiorum is and always has been subject to change depending

on the

> times in which the Romani lived. At one point, it was against the

custom of

> the elders for women to vote, hold offices, live being sub manu or

sine

> tutore, serve in the military, or wear past puberty a toga. An

appeal to the

> mos maiorum then does not help your case for all Novi Romani women

to wear

> togae. You can't pick and choose and claim that it supports you

when in

> reality, it doesn't.
>
> You can appeal to equality or try to redefine the mos maiorum to

bring it

> into the XXI s. post Augustum, but you can't appeal to the ancient

mos

> maiorum.
>
> Vale ab viro qui in rei medio manet.
>
> On 9/23/07, Maior <rory12001@...> wrote:
> >
> > This is not a fashion discussion, but about the mos maiorum we

are

> > dedicated to reviving and living as Nova Romans.
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

When Fortune has chose again to strike me
I though, at least, there would be a consolation
The glorious people would have what they´re worthy for
I won´t free them anymore of anyone - since I couldn´t free me of myself

--
Valete bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus

"Vigilando, agendo, bene consulendo, prospera omnia cedunt" - Salustius


PS II - The experience has taught me that Odysseus really had its
fraction of guilt, if not by Ogigia, by Ea.

Ehhh... pure poison, hum??/

Nowadays in Brazil we say in the Senate: "Quosque tandem, Calheirvs, abutere
patientia nostra???"

Vale,
L. Arminius Faustus


2007/9/24, decimus_iulius_caesar <sapamila79@...>:

>
> Salve,
> Very interesting. Thanks for sharing :)
>
> Vale,
> D. Iulius Caesar
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "sstevemoore" <astrobear@...> wrote:
> >
> > Salvete, omnes.
> >
> > Here's an interesting blog from "Hadrian's Forum" about the conspiracy
> > of Catiline--with comparisons to today in the United States.
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > M. Valerius Potitus
> >
> > http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/9/23/15130/0658
> >
>
>
>

--
Valete bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus

"Vigilando, agendo, bene consulendo, prospera omnia cedunt" - Salustius


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Maiori A. Tullia Scholastica quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque bonae
> voluntatis S.P.D.
>
> In the interest of improving the subscribers¹ command of Latin, that would
> be de more maiorum; de is a preposition which governs the ablative in all
> parts of associated phrases, not the ablative in some of its objects and the
> nominative (of all things...) in others. Not even in English do prepositions
> govern the nominative.
>
>
>
> M. Hortensia Scholasticae quiritibus spd;
> this is a profoundly important discussion as wearing the
> toga is part of the mos maiorum - Roman national tradition.
>
> ATS: Yes, but there¹s this little consideration.
>
> Below is part of the preamble of our Constitution:
>
> "As the spiritual heir to the ancient Roman Republic and Empire,
> Nova Roma shall endeavor to exist, in all manners practical and
> acceptable, as the modern restoration of the ancient Roman Republic.
> The culture, religion, and society of Nova Roma shall be patterned
> upon those of ancient Rome"
>
> So we are devoted to reviving our national tradition. Wearing the
> toga was a deep part of the Roman mos maiorum. Virgil says in "The
> Aeneid"
> Romanos rerum dominos, gentemque togatem
> lords of the world, toga-wearing Romans Book 1.282-3
>
> ATS: Togatam...adjective of the first and second declensions, in
> agreement with gentem, feminine singular, third declension. The endings will
> differ, but the case and number will not.
>
> All magistrates in Roma Antiqua wore the toga praetexta. To wear a
> pallium, palla was unimaginable:
>
>
> ATS: I¹m sure it was. But then there is this little, tiny difference
> between them and us: Roman magistrates were all male, whereas some of ours
> are female.
>
> Idem cum Graeco pallio amictus intrasset - carent enim togae iure,
> quibus aqua et igni interdictum est -,
>
> He himself would be clothed like a Greek in a pallium, for those
> who have been barred from fire and water are without the right of
> the toga .
>
> ATS: This looks to me as if it means something rather different: when he
> himself had entered [especially entered court] dressed in a Greek
> pallium...for those to whom it is forbidden [to receive] water and fire lack
> the right [of wearing] the toga. Intrasset is the shortened form of the
> pluperfect subjunctive of intro, enter, especially, enter court.
>
> Pliny the younger, Book 4, letter 11, line 3
> http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/pliny.ep4.html
>
> When a magistrate takes the auspices, he put a fold of the toga over
> his head so he does not see a bad omen.
>
> This is not a fashion discussion, but about the mos maiorum we are
> dedicated to reviving and living as Nova Romans.
>
> ATS: No, but there is a little difference between this discussion and one
> of fashion. Are you also suggesting that we should wear the short tunica worn
> by men as well as the toga? Female magistrates should be fully transvestite?
> Maybe adopt short hair and grow beards to be scraped off at the tonstrina?
>
> In the Republican calendar, Liber Pater an ancient Roman god of
> germination was celebrated during the Liberalia when boys would go
> to his temple & then trade the toga of youth, the toga praetexta for
> that of manhood; the toga virilis. Girls would go to the ancient
> Temple of Fortuna, founded by king Servius Tullius, on the Matralia,
> another Republican feria and lay their toga praetexta.
>
> In fact here is a list of festivals that the Collegium Pontificarum
>
> ATS: Pontificum, as below...pontifex is third declension, not first.
>
> recommeds the Senate observe:
> http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Responsum_Pontificum_de_Feriis_MMDCCLX_%
> 28Nova_Roma%29
> The Matralia is on that list. Magistates would wear togas at
> these festivals.
>
> Festivals, coming of age, adulthood, magisterial office all have to
> do with the Roman state and religion. They are intertwined. Toga-
> wearing is intimately connected with office, religion, status, what
> it is to 'be' a Roman.
>
> ATS: Yes, indeed. And the Romans were very precise about marking all of
> the above, et al., with distinctions in dress. But at the considerable risk
> of sounding like a member of a certain conservative political faction, matters
> were rather different then and there. All Roman citizens were male, all Roman
> magistrates were male, and the pallium would indeed have been unthinkable.
> Some of ours are female, and do not wish to be mistaken for scorta, or even
> for very early matrones, innuptae, etc., unless they are specifically
> reenacting in such roles. Some of us are reenactors, but the majority are
> not, nor is it likely that reenactors would go that far back in time...and
> adopt the archaic Latin of Plautus and his predecessors.
>
> Valete.
>
> M. Hortensia Maior
> NRwiki articles on:
>
> Liber Pater http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Liber
> Fasti Festivals for this year:
> http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Fasti_MMDCCLX
> Toga: http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Toga
>

Valete.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Maior:,
Thanks for your references. Very interesting the interview and the project
of the Palatino.
When you create was constructed the temple in the Vatican, So that reason.?
In the project it is possible to read as in the Palatino there were
sacrifices of bulls with blood in the altar.
It can that the deep swimming pool was for other uses.? Not only to wash
the black stone.
In Ostia there was taurobolia in first century A.D.

Valete
C. Minicius Agrippa

> Salve Agrippa;
> they had the taurobolium in Rome to show just how 'different'
> pagans were. You might enjoy the interview with the show's writers
> in this Beliefnet article.
> http://www.beliefnet.com/story/209/story_20922_1.html
>
> The taurobolium never took place on the Palantine; Prof. Pensabene
> is doing great archeological work there. There is a deep pool to
> wash the goddesses' cult statue. Here is a link to a line drawing
> from our own Magna Mater project:)
> http://www.magnamaterproject.org/en/home.php
>
> The taurobolium is exactly on the site of the 'Vatican'. This is the
> site where the Galli priests lived. The galli, the eunuch priests,
> would tell fortunes for money 'vaticinus: prophetic.' So I'm sure
> the entire site has been destroyed or altered.
>
> There are inscriptions, but no real work has been done on the early
> taurobolia. There is the book: "The Taurobolium" by Robert Duthoy,
> Brill, 1969. But it is so dated. So work is going on in Anatolia, so
> I think this will be the next wave of research. I hope so!
> bene vale in pacem deorum
> Marca Hortensia Maior
>
> PS: I'll put in the best MM books over at this reading list at the
> NRwiki later today
> http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Reading_list_for_the_cultus_deorum
>

Ladies and Gentlemen of Nova Roma;

I invite all in NR to consider the Sodalitas Virtutis. It is the Sodalitas of Roman Virtues -- a portion of the Roman culture all too often forgotten by those who maintain their arguments in anger, frustration, insult, and objection to other views on other web lists and websites.

The Sodalitas has a very full selection of the cautions of Cato to his son in regard to a moderate human behavior toward oneself and toward others as well. This selection has most generously been entered into the archives by our own Senator Marinus. There is also a few remarks from Marcus Aurelius in the same vein of subject to be found in the archives as well.

The Sodalitas encourages those who wish to give some thought to the virtues of the Roman Culture to join this Sodalitas and enjoy some of the comments on this subject by great men who lived during this period.

It is not a particularly active Sodalitas at the moment since the members do not engage in excessive argument, and opinion, and we recognize the views of others as their right to have such views without the immediate clamor over differences of opinion in regard to political, and humanistic views such as crowds other web lists and websites.

If you are interested in a idea of our ancient culture in the area of moderate human behavior and self-relations you are most cordially invited to join the Sodalitas Virtutis at:

SodalitasVirtutis@yahoogroups.com

Respectfully;

Marcus Audens
Senator, Consularis, and past ProConsul



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve

Very interesting article indeed - I have always considered Catilina
rather as a forward thinking champion of change by the standards of
his day, rather than the villain and would-be tyrant Cicero portrays :)

vale bene

M. Sergius Catilina

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "sstevemoore" <astrobear@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete, omnes.
>
> Here's an interesting blog from "Hadrian's Forum" about the conspiracy
> of Catiline--with comparisons to today in the United States.
>
> Valete,
>
> M. Valerius Potitus
>
> http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/9/23/15130/0658
>

Salvete!

I was wondering if there is a yahoo group from NR that is about the
discussion of modern roman fiction books.

Thanks in advance.

Valete!

C. Octavia Agrippa

Salvete omnes!

Personally, I hope the gods will protect my environment, at least
during my lifetime, from any "champion of change" who wants to kill
all senators.
I can do without that sort of "change", thank you.

Lucia Livia Plauta

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com,
"marcus_sergius_catilina" <kerunos@...> wrote:

>
> Salve
>
> Very interesting article indeed - I have always considered Catilina
> rather as a forward thinking champion of change by the standards of
> his day, rather than the villain and would-be tyrant Cicero

portrays :)

>
> vale bene
>
> M. Sergius Catilina
>
>
>
>

Salve C. Octavia Agrippa

Here is the address for the NR book club.

NovaRomaBookClub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaia Octavia Agrippa" <RPF.21@...>
wrote:

>
> Salvete!
>
> I was wondering if there is a yahoo group from NR that is about the
> discussion of modern roman fiction books.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Valete!
>
> C. Octavia Agrippa
>

Salve Lucia Livia Plauta

I am happy to join you in making such a request of the gods!
But then, I did say 'by the standards of his day', and imagine there
are many aspects of that time we would not wish to see a return of -
Cicero's own execution without trial of prisoners, for example.


M. Sulius Catilina

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "liviacases" <cases@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete omnes!
>
> Personally, I hope the gods will protect my environment, at least
> during my lifetime, from any "champion of change" who wants to kill
> all senators.
> I can do without that sort of "change", thank you.
>
> Lucia Livia Plauta
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com,
> "marcus_sergius_catilina" <kerunos@> wrote:
> >
> > Salve
> >
> > Very interesting article indeed - I have always considered Catilina
> > rather as a forward thinking champion of change by the standards of
> > his day, rather than the villain and would-be tyrant Cicero
> portrays :)
> >
> > vale bene
> >
> > M. Sergius Catilina
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodiernus dies est ante diem VI Kalendas Octobris; haec dies
comitialis est.

"And when He was come near, He beheld the city, and wept over it,
Saying, 'If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day,
the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from
thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies
shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee
in on every side, And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy
children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon
another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.'" - The
Gospel According to St. Luke 19:41-44

"Now as soon as the army had no more people to slay or to plunder,
because there remained none to be the objects of their fury (for they
would not have spared any, had there remained any other work to be
done), [Titus] Caesar gave orders that they should now demolish the
entire city and Temple, but should leave as many of the towers
standing as were of the greatest eminence; that is, Phasaelus, and
Hippicus, and Mariamne; and so much of the wall as enclosed the city
on the west side. This wall was spared, in order to afford a camp for
such as were to lie in garrison [in the Upper City], as were the
towers [the three forts] also spared, in order to demonstrate to
posterity what kind of city it was, and how well fortified, which the
Roman valor had subdued; but for all the rest of the wall
[surrounding Jerusalem], it was so thoroughly laid even with the
ground by those that dug it up to the foundation, that there was left
nothing to make those that came thither believe it [Jerusalem] had
ever been inhabited. This was the end which Jerusalem came to by the
madness of those that were for innovations; a city otherwise of great
magnificence, and of mighty fame among all mankind." - Flavius
Josephus, "The Jewish Wars" VII.1.1

On this day in AD 70 the Roman army, led by the future Emperor Titus,
with Tiberius Julius Alexander as his second-in-command, besieged and
conquered the city of Jerusalem, which had been occupied by its
Jewish defenders in 66. The city and its famous Temple were
completely destroyed. The Arch of Titus, depicting and celebrating
the sack of Jerusalem and the Temple, still stands in Rome.

In mid-May Titus set to destroying the newly built Third Wall with a
ram, breaching it as well as the Second Wall, and turning his
attention to the Fortress of Antonia just north of the Temple Mount.
The Romans were then drawn into street fighting with the Zealots were
ordered to retreat to avoid heavy losses. Josephus failed in another
attempt at negotiations, and Jewish attacks prevented the
construction of siege towers at the Fortress of Antonia. Food, water,
and other provisions were dwindling inside the city, but small
foraging parties managed to sneak supplies into the city, harrying
Roman forces in the process. To put an end to the foragers, orders
were issued to build a new wall, and siege tower construction was
restarted as well.

"While the Temple was ablaze, the attackers plundered it, and
countless people who were caught by them were slaughtered. There was
no pity for age and no regard was accorded rank; children and old
men, laymen and priests, alike were butchered; every class was
pursued and crushed in the grip of war, whether they cried out for
mercy or offered resistance. Through the roar of the flames
streaming far and wide, the groans of the falling victims were heard;
such was the height of the hill and the magnitude of the blazing pile
that the entire city seemed to be ablaze; and the noise - nothing
more deafening and frightening could be imagined.

There were the war cries of the Roman legions as they swept onwards
en masse, the yells of the rebels encircled by fire and sword, the
panic of the people who, cut off above, fled into the arms of the
enemy, and their shrieks as they met their fate. The cries on the
hill blended with those of the multitudes in the city below; and now
many people who were exhausted and tongue-tied as a result of hunger,
when they beheld the Temple on fire, found strength once more to
lament and wail. Peraea and the surrounding hills, added their echoes
to the deafening din. But more horrifying than the din were the
sufferings. The Temple Mount, everywhere enveloped in flames, seemed
to be boiling over from its base; yet the blood seemed more abundant
than the flames and the numbers of the slain greater than those of
the slayers. The soldiers climbed over heaps of bodies as they chased
the fugitives." - op. cit. V

After several failed attempts to breach or scale the walls of the
Fortress, the Romans finally launched a secret attack, overwhelming
sleeping Zealot guards and taking the Fortress. This was the second
highest ground in the city, after the Temple Mount, and provided a
perfect point from which to attack the Temple itself. Battering rams
made little progress, but the fighting itself eventually set the
walls on fire, when a Roman soldier threw a burning stick onto one of
the Temple's walls. Destroying the Temple was not among Titus' goals,
possibly due in large part to the massive expansions done by Herod
the Great mere decades earlier. Most likely, Titus had wanted to
seize it and transform it into a temple, dedicated to the Roman
Emperor and to the Roman pantheon. But the flames spread quite
quickly and were soon unquenchable.

"And truly, the very view itself was a melancholy thing; for those
places which were adorned with trees and pleasant gardens, were now
become desolate country every way, and its trees were all cut down.
Nor could any foreigner that had formerly seen Judaea and the most
beautiful suburbs of the city, and now saw it as a desert, but lament
and mourn sadly at so great a change. For the war had laid all signs
of beauty quite waste. Nor had anyone who had known the place before,
had come on a sudden to it now, would he have known it again. But
though he [a foreigner] were at the city itself, yet would he have
inquired for it" - op. cit. VI.1.1

Valete bene!

Cato



SOURCES

Wikipedia, Gospel of St. Luke, Flavius Josephus

Cn. Lentulus Hortensiae Maiori sal.:

I have very limited time in these days and I cannot write long, but this point, I think, is so much important and interesting that I cannot restrain myself from adding my voice too.

Let it be clear that I don't have a decided opinion about whether NR women should wear togas or not, because in my view both stanpoints can be justified.

NR women use the tria nomina while ancient Roman women did not. What is the reason of this? The reason for having female tria nomina is that women in NR have equal rights to men, so their name have to look similarly. Why does Hortensia say that NR women should wear the toga? Because they have the same rights than men - so their garment has to look similarly. This is Hortensia's logic, and in my opinion Hortensia is right.

The other standpoint is that toga is a male costume, so women cannot wear togas. That's true. But in the ancient Rome women could not have tria nomina either! Times change - and mos majorum also changes. NR follows this politic.

The best solution of this question is between the two - as always.

Women when performing political duties shall wear the toga - otherwise never. This is the Lentulian solution! ;-)


VALE!


Maior <rory12001@...> ha scritto:
M. Hortensia Q. Valerio Poplicolae spd;
the Romans were quite conservative but also pragmatic. They
did not want to disturb the Pax Deorum with unecessary innovation.
Now if we take the case of the toga. I pointed out that women wore
it until 200 B.C. the same as men, that young girls just like young
boy still wore it until puberty. So there is a long and Roman
history of women wearing the toga.

Now I also quoted that toga-wearing was considered the mark of being
Roman. That all magistrates had to wear togas at religious
festivities and official occasions; appearing in the Senate.

In Nova Roma today, which is now approx 2,000 from the Republic.
Women are magistrates, priestesses and full citizens. Now since
women have a history of toga wearing & it is unimaginable for a
magistrate or religious official not to wear a toga, it makes sense
for women to adhere to the mos maiorum and wear the toga.
bene vale
M. Hortensia Maior
Producer 'Vox Romana'podcast

On a side note, I wore mine at a NR meeting 3 years ago in New York
City and was shocked by the admiration and questions I received by
utter strangers. Frankly I thought they would laugh at me. Our
ancestors were wiser than we; the toga is a noble garment which
invites respect. When I go to Rome this spring I surely will wear my
toga.

>
> A quick side-note:
>
> The mos maiorum is and always has been subject to change depending

on the

> times in which the Romani lived. At one point, it was against the

custom of

> the elders for women to vote, hold offices, live being sub manu or

sine

> tutore, serve in the military, or wear past puberty a toga. An

appeal to the

> mos maiorum then does not help your case for all Novi Romani women

to wear

> togae. You can't pick and choose and claim that it supports you

when in

> reality, it doesn't.
>
> You can appeal to equality or try to redefine the mos maiorum to

bring it

> into the XXI s. post Augustum, but you can't appeal to the ancient

mos

> maiorum.
>
> Vale ab viro qui in rei medio manet.
>
> On 9/23/07, Maior wrote:
> >
> > This is not a fashion discussion, but about the mos maiorum we

are

> > dedicated to reviving and living as Nova Romans.
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Yahoo! Groups Links






---------------------------------

---------------------------------
L'email della prossima generazione? Puoi averla con la nuova Yahoo! Mail

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete Quirites

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Tullia Scholastica"
<fororom@...> wrote:

>
> >
> > M. Hortensia Maior scripsit:
> > There is no need to speculate about the this issue. This is a
> > problem with magistrates who do not know the Religio...
> >
> > ATS: And what, pray, does the Religio have to do with this?

Apart from

> > ritual requirements, such as capite velato, what does the RR have

to do with

> > the price of tea in China? This is a part of the study of

clothing, not of

> > the RR per se.

The question has everything to do with the religio Romana, since the
discussion began with a question on whether it was (for a man who was
asking) required to wear a toga while performing Roman ritual. I
replied that it should be required when performing a formal ritual of
the religio Romana, although in most cases that would not apply today.

Maior carried this to the next natural step since magistrates would
be expected at times to perform formal ritual, or at the very least
to have such performed by cultores Deorum on their behalf. The
religio Romana is suppose to be central to Nova Roma, a defining
feature of our Res Publica Libera. And yet it seems to have fallen
to the wayside, neglected by our magistrates at times as an
inconvenience and more often out of ignorance of what should be
required of them. But one cannot really fault the magistrates for
not knowing what to do when pontifices also have come to neglect
their duties.


Hortensia etiam scripsit:

> > When a magistrate takes the auspices, he put a fold of the toga

over

> > his head so he does not see a bad omen.

First it should be pointed out that men were not the only ones who
took the auspices. In fact, IIRC one of the few examples of a lituus
was found in the early grave of a woman. And in another grave, at
Gabii, a woman's grave had a sacrifical knife, indicating that she
was a priestess and this would also imply that she had taken auspices
before performing rites. Then too is a tale in Valerius Maximus
(1.5.4) where Caecilia Metella performed a rite on behalf of her
niece, "in ancient fashion ...she asked for an omen" (more
prisco...petit omen).

Secondly, when a woman wore a toga it meant that she was
independent. It was not per se a mark that worked as a prostitute.
Obviously prostitutes who were slaves could not wear a toga, as the
penalty would have been death. And your more high class cortigiani
were usually foreign and exotic, so they too would not wear a toga.
It would be bad for their business. At the Nonae Caprotivae, in
July, a servant girl would be given a toga as she was being freed,
because, at the same time, she was becoming a Roman citizen. The
toga marked her as free and a citizen, and also independent of a
master, father, or husband. Now, being an independent woman perhaps
bore a stigma, just as being an unmarried woman in the 1950's carried
a certain stigma. But it did not mean she was necessarily a
prostitute, and indeed we know that free and independent, citizen
women owned and managed their own private businesses.

Who was to take the auspices, and who was to perform any ritual,
depended on the nature of the rite and on whose behalf it was being
performed. The consules took the auspices for the Roman State
because, as the highest magistrates, they represented the Romans to
the Gods. In the same way, a pater familias would take the auspices
in matters related to the family as he was the leading member of the
family. And Caecilia took the auspices for her niece probably for
the same reason that aunts prayed to Mater Matuta on behalf of their
nieces on Matralia (11 June).

In certain rites, such as a supplicatio, magistrates were to put
aside the insignia of their offices. In other rituals where they
specifically represented the Roman people by virtue of their office,
then they would be expected to wear the insignia of office, and that
would include a toga praetexta. This is not a matter of a fashion
statement. Roman society was composed of both mortals and immortals,
and the magistrates often served in a role of addressing the Gods on
behalf of the people. That is, magistrates served as the link in the
hierarchal structure that unites mortales with the immortals in the
Pax Deorum. This was a social role; it was a religious role. As it
happened, women did not become magistrates in Roma antiqua, so the
question would never have come up. But if they had it would have
been the same as in Egypt where a woman in the role of pharoah would
wear the same insignia as a man, including the fake beard. A woman
magistrate would have to don a toga praetexta to signify her
position, and it would have nothing to do with her sex, her marital
status, or her sense of fashion consciousness.

Valete optime
M Moravius Piscinus

A. Apollonius C. Octaviae sal.

Without wishing to step on the toes of Ti. Galerius' book club, discussion of modern fiction about Rome, as well as of ancient Roman fiction and indeed all the arts, is always welcome in the sodalitas Musarum:

http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Sodalitas_Musarum_%28Nova_Roma%29

From time to time we chat about which muse governs the modern novel. I incline to think that it must be either Calliope as muse of the long fictional narrative (epic) or else Clio as muse of narrative prose (history).





___________________________________________________________
Want ideas for reducing your carbon footprint? Visit Yahoo! For Good http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/environment.html

Salvete!

I have looked at the link to the CollegiumClius and found that it was
very silent. The book club was also virtually deserted. Does anyone
know of a modern roman fiction discussion group out side of NR that
is more active?

C. Octavia Agrippa

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<a_apollonius_cordus@...> wrote:

>
> A. Apollonius C. Octaviae sal.
>
> Without wishing to step on the toes of Ti. Galerius' book club,

discussion of modern fiction about Rome, as well as of ancient Roman
fiction and indeed all the arts, is always welcome in the sodalitas
Musarum:

>
> http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Sodalitas_Musarum_%28Nova_Roma%29
>
> From time to time we chat about which muse governs the modern

novel. I incline to think that it must be either Calliope as muse of
the long fictional narrative (epic) or else Clio as muse of narrative
prose (history).

>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> Want ideas for reducing your carbon footprint? Visit Yahoo! For

Good http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/environment.html

>

Salve Cordus

Not to worry. I support any discusstion about Rome anywhere so my toes are
safe : )

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

>From: "A. Apollonius Cordus" <a_apollonius_cordus@...>
>Reply-To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>To: Forum Romanum <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Book club
>Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 17:25:02 +0000 (GMT)
>
>A. Apollonius C. Octaviae sal.
>
>Without wishing to step on the toes of Ti. Galerius' book club, discussion
>of modern fiction about Rome, as well as of ancient Roman fiction and
>indeed all the arts, is always welcome in the sodalitas Musarum:
>
>http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Sodalitas_Musarum_%28Nova_Roma%29
>
>From time to time we chat about which muse governs the modern novel. I
>incline to think that it must be either Calliope as muse of the long
>fictional narrative (epic) or else Clio as muse of narrative prose
>(history).
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
>Want ideas for reducing your carbon footprint? Visit Yahoo! For Good
>http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/environment.html

Salvete

Here is one

http://romanhistorybooksandmore.freeservers.com/

Valete

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

>From: "Gaia Octavia Agrippa" <RPF.21@...>
>Reply-To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Book club
>Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 18:25:23 -0000
>
>Salvete!
>
>I have looked at the link to the CollegiumClius and found that it was
>very silent. The book club was also virtually deserted. Does anyone
>know of a modern roman fiction discussion group out side of NR that
>is more active?
>
>C. Octavia Agrippa
>
>--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
><a_apollonius_cordus@...> wrote:
> >
> > A. Apollonius C. Octaviae sal.
> >
> > Without wishing to step on the toes of Ti. Galerius' book club,
>discussion of modern fiction about Rome, as well as of ancient Roman
>fiction and indeed all the arts, is always welcome in the sodalitas
>Musarum:
> >
> > http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Sodalitas_Musarum_%28Nova_Roma%29
> >
> > From time to time we chat about which muse governs the modern
>novel. I incline to think that it must be either Calliope as muse of
>the long fictional narrative (epic) or else Clio as muse of narrative
>prose (history).
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___________________________________________________________
> > Want ideas for reducing your carbon footprint? Visit Yahoo! For
>Good http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/environment.html
> >
>
>

Salvete!

This looks interesting!
Also more specifically does any one know of a yahoo group
specializing in modern roman fiction?

Thanks for all the sergestions! ;)

C. Octavia Agrippa


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@...>
wrote:

>
> Salvete
>
> Here is one
>
> http://romanhistorybooksandmore.freeservers.com/
>
> Valete
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>
>
> >From: "Gaia Octavia Agrippa" <RPF.21@...>
> >Reply-To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> >To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Book club
> >Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 18:25:23 -0000
> >
> >Salvete!
> >
> >I have looked at the link to the CollegiumClius and found that it

was

> >very silent. The book club was also virtually deserted. Does anyone
> >know of a modern roman fiction discussion group out side of NR that
> >is more active?
> >
> >C. Octavia Agrippa
> >
> >--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
> ><a_apollonius_cordus@> wrote:
> > >
> > > A. Apollonius C. Octaviae sal.
> > >
> > > Without wishing to step on the toes of Ti. Galerius' book club,
> >discussion of modern fiction about Rome, as well as of ancient

Roman

> >fiction and indeed all the arts, is always welcome in the sodalitas
> >Musarum:
> > >
> > > http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Sodalitas_Musarum_%28Nova_Roma%29
> > >
> > > From time to time we chat about which muse governs the modern
> >novel. I incline to think that it must be either Calliope as muse

of

> >the long fictional narrative (epic) or else Clio as muse of

narrative

> >prose (history).
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >

___________________________________________________________

> > > Want ideas for reducing your carbon footprint? Visit Yahoo! For
> >Good http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/environment.html
> > >
> >
> >
>

Salvete,

I think that would actually be something a great deal of would be interested
in.. Considering how many Colleen McCollough fans are out there :-)......


Valete,
R. Cornelia Aeternia

On 9/25/07, Gaia Octavia Agrippa <RPF.21@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete!
>
> I was wondering if there is a yahoo group from NR that is about the
> discussion of modern roman fiction books.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Valete!
>
> C. Octavia Agrippa
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete omnes,

R. Cornelia Aeternia scripsit:

>I think that would actually be something a great deal of would be interested
>in.. Considering how many Colleen McCollough fans are out there :-)......

Not to mention Steven Saylor (Sub Rosa series), Lindsey Davis (Marcus Didius Falco mysteries), and Simon Scarrow (Eagle series) fans! I haven't read any of David Wishart's books (Marcus Corvinus mysteries), but I intend to remedy that at some point.

There are two groups--"caesarswomen" and "Ancient Rome" that deal with novels set in ancient Rome or about ancient Romans, but both appear to be filled with spam posts. I know of no other Yahoo group dealing with Roman fiction books, but that doesn't mean one cannot be created, NR related or otherwise.

Valete bene,
Artoria

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

How about this:

http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Reading_list_for_modern_fiction and the
associated talk page?

Agricola

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaia Octavia Agrippa" <RPF.21@...>
wrote:

>
> Salvete!
>
> I was wondering if there is a yahoo group from NR that is about the
> discussion of modern roman fiction books.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Valete!
>
> C. Octavia Agrippa
>

A. Apollonius omnibus sal.

Many very sensible things have been said about this subject already, and I won't take up your time by agreeing. Let me just add a little of my own.

Cn. Lentulus pointed out that modern Roman women have the same tria nomina as ancient (and modern) Roman men. One might assume that this is the result of a simple dogma that differences between men and women should be abolished in Nova Roma. Not so.

In the old republic, names expressed social truths. A man's name told people which gens (clan) he belonged to, which family within that gens he belonged to, and which individual member of that family he was, as well as making it quite easy to guess whether or not he was the eldest child. His full, formal name also included the names of his father and grandfather, and his voting-tribe. In short, his name expressed a number of important things about him as an individual and about his place in society.

By contrast, a woman had (with rare exceptions) only one name, and it was the vaguest of the three names, the nomen. It told you nothing about her except her gens, because that was, in those days, more or less all you needed to know about a woman. If there was a need to distinguish her from other women of the same name, it was done not by any name individual to her but by saying who her husband was or who her father was. A woman was defined in a very crude and off-hand way, as compared to the much more sophisticated method of identifying a man, and when she was identified more precisely it was solely in terms of her relationship to some man or other.

Thus women's names were not just different from men's. They expressed a fundamental social inferiority. That inferiority does not exist in Nova Roma and very few people would wish to revive it. It would therefore be impractical and undesirable to perpetuate the system of naming which expressed that inferiority. That is why women in Nova Roma are named in the same way as men: because in that particular case the only alternative to being the same is being inferior.

When it comes to clothing and other social issues where there was historically a difference between men and women, I suggest we should ask ourselves the same question. Did that difference express an inequality which is irrelevant and undesirable today, or was it merely one of those many differences which exist in all societies between women and men without implying any inequality between the two sexes?

I don't know enough about Roman clothing to start to answer that question in this particular case. I shall continue to listen to the arguments with interest. But as I listen, that's the question I'll be asking myself, and I share it with you now.




___________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Try it
now.
http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/

A. Apollonius C. Octaviae sal.

The e-mail list of the collegium Clius is indeed silent, but the e-mail list for the sodalitas Musarum as a whole shows occasional signs of life. And this list we're on now always welcomes discussion of culture and the arts.

You'll find a lot of silent or near-silent groups in Nova Roma. They're like volcanoes. Some are extinct, others are merely dormant, and it's hard to tell the difference. The only way to find out is to have a go at starting a conversation. Sometimes nobody responds, or one or two respond but the discussion quickly peters out. But sometimes you'll get a surprisingly lively response. Often it's a case of everyone waiting for someone else to start the conversation; once it's begun, people are glad, even keen, to join in. Many of the liveliest and most interesting discussions I've seen in Nova Roma have been started by new citizens asking for information or opinions.

So I'd encourage you and others not to be put off by apparent inactivity in groups which look interesting. Join anyway, and say something to start a conversation. The worst that will happen is nothing, and you may be pleasantly surprised. There may well be groups outside Nova Roma which are more full of continuous discussions of modern Roman fiction, but I'd venture to guess that there are few places outside Nova Roma where you'll get better informed opinions.




___________________________________________________________
Want ideas for reducing your carbon footprint? Visit Yahoo! For Good http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/environment.html

A. Tullia Scholastica quirítibus, sociís, peregrínísque bonae voluntátis
S.P.D.

Registration has closed for the Wheelock-based Grammatica Latina
classes. Both are now in session and approaching their second
textbook-based lessons, but those who have some familiarity with Latin MAY
still be admitted to GL I with the instructor¹s permission. Those who have
not had Latin, however, cannot be admitted at this point.

The Sermo Latinus courses based on the Assimil (Desessard only; not the
new version) text and tapes will begin October 15th. Avitus has graded the
introductory and combined classes, and prepared the introductory site for
new students. Presumably he is working on the intermediate class grades.

I have been informed that the Desessard Assimil text may be obtained for
as little as 17 euros or so, but this does not include the tapes, which are
required for the course, though perhaps the fact that this version is going
out of print will cause the price to be lowered. The text and tapes must be
in hand in order to be allowed to register for any of these courses.

As noted previously, our courses do require a lot of work, but the
payoff is great. The Assimil course is oriented to produce oral and written
fluency in Latin, and is taught by a Roman citizen who is a world-famous
Latinist, professor, and department chairman in real life as well as at AT.
The pace is brisk, and challenging, but hardy Romans can take it, as they
can the long assignments in Grammatica Latina. We are built of strong
stuff.

Valete.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

"Pompey, because of his military campaigns, was more talked about and
more powerful in Rome when he was away; when he was present, he was
often less important than Crassus. This was because there was a
certain arrogance and haughtiness about Pompey's way of life. He
avoided crowds, scarcely appeared in the forum, gave his help to only
a few of those who asked him for it, and even then not very willingly.
In this way he aimed at preserving his influence intact for use in his
own interests. Crassus, on the other hand, was continually ready to be
of use to people, always available and easy to be found; he had a hand
in everything that was going on, and by the kindness which he was
prepared to show to everyone he made himself more influential than
Pompey was able to do with his high-handed manners. So far as dignity
of appearance, persuasiveness of language, and attractiveness of fact
are concerned, there was, so it is said, nothing to choose between
them." - Plutarch, "Life of Crassus" VII

"If you would take the pains but to examine the wars of Pompey the
Great, you shall find, I warrant you, that there is no tiddle-taddle
nor pibble-pabble in Pompey's camp Â… you shall find the ceremonies of
the wars, and the cares of it, and the forms of it, and the sobriety
of it, and the modesty of it, to be otherwise." - William Shakespeare,
Henry V.IV.1

"Pompeius; from the height
Of human greatness, envied of mankind,
Looked on all others; nor for him henceforth
Could life be lowly. The honours of his youth
Too early thrust upon him, and the deeds
Which brought him triumph in the Sullan days,
His conquering navy and the Pontic war,
Made heavier now the burden of defeat
And crushed his pondering soul." - Lucan, The Pharsalia VIII.24-32

"In his youth, his countenance pleaded for him, seeming to anticipate
his eloquence, and win upon the affections of the people before he
spoke. His beauty even in his bloom of youth had something in it at
once of gentleness and dignity; and when his prime of manhood came,
the majesty and kingliness of his character at once became visible in
it. His hair sat somewhat hollow or rising a little; and this, with
the languishing motion of his eyes, seemed to form a resemblance in
his face, though perhaps more talked of than really apparent, to the
statues of the King Alexander [the Great]. And because many applied
that name to him in his youth, Pompey himself did not decline it,
insomuch that some called him so in derision." - Plutarch, Life of Pompey

"After these last words to his friends, he went into the boat. And
since it was a long distance from the trireme to the land, and none of
his companions in the boat had any friendly word for him, turning his
eyes upon Septimius he said: 'Surely I am not mistaken, and you are an
old comrade of mine!' Septimius nodded merely, without saying
anything to him or showing any friendliness. So then, as there was
profound silence again, Pompey took a little roll containing a speech
written by him in Greek, which he had prepared for his use in
addressing Ptolemy, and began to read in it. Then, as they drew near
the shore, Cornelia, together with his friends, stood on the trireme
watching with great anxiety for the outcome, and began to take heart
when she saw many of the king's people assembling at the landing as if
to give him an honourable welcome. But at this point, while Pompey was
clasping the hand of Philip that he might rise to his feet more
easily, Septimius, from behind, ran him through the body with his
sword, then Salvius next, and than Achillas, drew their daggers and
stabbed him. And Pompey, drawing his toga down over his face with
both hands, without an act or a word that was unworthy of himself, but
with a groan merely, submitted to their blows, being sixty years of
age less one, and ending his life only one day after his birth-day." -
op. cit. 79

Escaping Caesar by a hair in Brundisium, Pompey regained his
confidence during the siege of Dyrrhachium, in which Caesar lost 1000
men. Yet, by failing to pursue at the critical moment of Caesar's
defeat, Pompey threw away the chance to destroy Caesar's much smaller
army. As Caesar himself said, "Today the enemy would have won, if they
had had a commander who was a winner" (Plutarch, 65). According to
Suetonius, it was at this point that Caesar said that "that man
(Pompey) does not know how to win a war." With Caesar on their backs,
the conservatives led by Pompey fled to Greece. Caesar and Pompey had
their final showdown at the Battle of Pharsalus in 48 BC. The fighting
was bitter for both sides but eventually was a decisive victory for
Caesar. Like all the other conservatives, Pompey had to run for his
life. He met his wife Cornelia and his son Sextus Pompeius on the
island of Mytilene. He then wondered where to go next. The decision of
running to one of the eastern kingdoms was overruled in favor of Egypt.

After his arrival in Egypt, Pompey's fate was decided by the
counselors of the young king Ptolemy XIII. While Pompey waited
offshore for word, they argued the cost of offering him refuge with
Caesar already en route for Egypt. It was decided to murder Caesar's
enemy to ingratiate themselves with him. On September 28th or 29th,
his 59th birthday, the great Pompey was lured toward a supposed
audience on shore in a small boat in which he recognized two old
comrades-in-arms from the glorious, early battles. They were to be his
assassins. While he sat in the boat, studying his speech for the king,
they stabbed him in the back with sword and dagger. After
decapitation, the body was left, contemptuously unattended and naked,
on the shore. His freedman, Philipus, organized a simple funeral pyre
and cremated the body on a pyre of broken ship's timbers.

Valete bene!

cato



SOURCES

Wikipedia, Plutarch, Shakespeare, Lucan

Salvete omnes,

An exhibit of Roman art, on loan from the Louvre, is currently underway (running through January 6th) at the Indianapolis Museum of Art in Indianapolis, Indiana. Here is the URL for the exhibit:

http://www.theromansarecoming.com/

Valete bene,
Artoria

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete!

I have made a Yahoo group that deals with Roman fiction books. This
list does not have any direct links with NR (accept a link to the
home page in the links section).

The list will be mildly moderated to stop it ending up like so many
other mailing, and be infiltrated with lots of spammers.

I hope that it will be fully running within a month. I have also
posted this message on a number of other lists.

I hope that anyone who is interested will join.
The name is RomanFiction, so just type that into the "search for
other groups..." box.

Valete!

C. Octavia Agrippa

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Ice Hunter" <icehunter@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete omnes,
>
> R. Cornelia Aeternia scripsit:
>
> >I think that would actually be something a great deal of would be
interested
> >in.. Considering how many Colleen McCollough fans are out there :-
)......
>
> Not to mention Steven Saylor (Sub Rosa series), Lindsey Davis
(Marcus Didius Falco mysteries), and Simon Scarrow (Eagle series)
fans! I haven't read any of David Wishart's books (Marcus Corvinus
mysteries), but I intend to remedy that at some point.
>
> There are two groups--"caesarswomen" and "Ancient Rome" that deal
with novels set in ancient Rome or about ancient Romans, but both
appear to be filled with spam posts. I know of no other Yahoo group
dealing with Roman fiction books, but that doesn't mean one cannot be
created, NR related or otherwise.
>
> Valete bene,
> Artoria
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Q. Valerius A. Apollonio:

This is not entirely true. Epigraphic descriptions often reveal something
more...such as Septimia Maria Iudea and Annia Lucii or even Aurelia Artemeis
and Caelia Thalassa.

While a certain "inferiority" is inherent, it morphs into something new
altogether, so that certain women actually have far more power than what is
often realized.

On 9/27/07, A. Apollonius Cordus <a_apollonius_cordus@...> wrote:

> In the old republic, names expressed social truths. A man's name told
> people which gens (clan) he belonged to, which family within that gens he
> belonged to, and which individual member of that family he was, as well as
> making it quite easy to guess whether or not he was the eldest child. His
> full, formal name also included the names of his father and grandfather, and
> his voting-tribe. In short, his name expressed a number of important things
> about him as an individual and about his place in society.
>
> By contrast, a woman had (with rare exceptions) only one name, and it was
> the vaguest of the three names, the nomen. It told you nothing about her
> except her gens, because that was, in those days, more or less all you
> needed to know about a woman. If there was a need to distinguish her from
> other women of the same name, it was done not by any name individual to her
> but by saying who her husband was or who her father was. A woman was defined
> in a very crude and off-hand way, as compared to the much more sophisticated
> method of identifying a man, and when she was identified more precisely it
> was solely in terms of her relationship to some man or other.
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodiernus dies est ante diem III Kalendas Octobris; haec dies
comitialis est.

"In the belief that now that Pompey was out of his way there was no
longer any hostility left against him, he spent some time in Egypt
levying money and deciding the differences between Ptolemy and
Cleopatra. Meanwhile other wars were being prepared against him.
Egypt revolted, and Pharnaces, just as soon as he had learned that
Pompey and Caesar were at variance, had began to lay claim to his
ancestral domain, since he hoped that they would waste a lot of time
in their quarrel and use up the Roman forces upon each other; 3 and
he now still went ahead with his plans, partly because he had once
made a beginning and partly because he learned that Caesar was far
away, and he actually seized many points before the other's arrival.
Meanwhile Cato and Scipio and the others who were of the same
p131mind with them set foot in Africa a struggle that was at once a
civil and a foreign war.

It came about in this way. Cato had been left behind at Dyrrachium by
Pompey to keep an eye out for any forces from Italy which might try
to cross over, and to repress the Parthini, in case they should begin
any disturbance. At first he carried on war with the latter, but
after Pompey's defeat he abandoned Epirus, and proceeding to Corcyra
with those of the same mind as himself, he there received the men who
had escaped from the battle and the rest who had the same sympathies.
Cicero and a few other senators had set out for Rome at once, but
the majority, including Labienus and Afranius, who had no hope in
Caesar,— the one because he had deserted him, and the other because
after having been pardoned by him he had again made war on him,— went
to Cato, put him at their head, and continued the war. Later
Octavius also joined them. After sailing into the Ionian Sea and
arresting Gaius Antonius, he had conquered several places, but could
not take Salonae, though he besieged it a very long time. For the
inhabitants, having Gabinius to assist them, vigorously repulsed him
and finally along with the women made a sortie and performed a
remarkable deed. The women let down their hair and robed themselves
in black garments, then taking torches and otherwise making their
appearance as terrifying as possible, they assaulted the camp of
the besiegers at midnight. They threw the outposts, who thought they
were spirits, into a panic, and then from all sides at once
hurled the fire within the palisade, and the men, following them,
slew many while they were in confusion and many who were still
asleep, promptly gained possession of the camp, and captured without
a blow the harbour in which Octavius was lying. They were not,
however, left in peace. For he escaped them somehow, gathered a force
again, and after defeating them in battle besieged them. Meanwhile,
as Gabinius had died of some disease, he gained control of the whole
sea in that vicinity, and by making descents upon the land ravaged
many districts. This lasted until the battle at Pharsalus, after
which his soldiers, as soon as a force sailed against them from
Brundisium, changed sides without even coming to blows with them.
Then, destitute of allies, Octavius retired to Corcyra." - Cassius
Dio, "Roman History" XLII.9-10

"Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the
dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they were defeated
and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. And the great
dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent who is called the Devil
and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world - he was thrown down to
the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him." - The Book of
The Revelation of St. John the Divine 12:7-9

Today is the Feast of St. Michael the Archangel

Valete bene!

Cato (whose macronational name is Michael)



SOURCES

Cassius Dio, St. John

Salvete!

This is a list of a number of good fiction books that are missing
from the "Reading list for modern fiction" on the NR website.

I would recommend that anyone who has the permission, would update
the page.

Valete!

C. Octavia Agrippa

----------------------------------------------------------------------

To: RomanFiction@yahoogroups.com
From: demery@...
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 15:31:33 -0400
Subject: [RomanFiction] Some (good) fiction books missing from the
Nova Roma fiction list

I'm presuming we can use the Nova Roma site as our 'list for record'
for
Roman fiction. I'm not a citizen of Nova Roma, I hope someone who is
will update the Wiki based on suggestions from this group.

Here's what I've read since completing the Colleen McCullough series:

| title= Medicus
| author= Ruth Downie
| date=Mar 6 2007
| publisher=Bloomsbury USA
| ISBN=1596912316

An amazing first novel, mystery, set in Roman Britain in the time
around
Trajan. A second book is planned for Mar 08, and it'll be hard to
wait.
-----
| title= Under the Eagle
| author= Simon Scarrow
| date=2000
| publisher=Headline Books UK
| ISBN=0747272824

| title= The Eagle's Conquest
| author= Simon Scarrow
| date=Dec 1 2002
| publisher=Thomas Dunne Books UK
| ISBN=0312305338

| title= When The Eagle Hunts
| author= Simon Scarrow
| date=Feb 1 2004
| publisher=Thomas Dunne Books UK
| ISBN=0312305354

| title= The Eagle and the Wolves
| author= Simon Scarrow
| date=Oct 14 2004
| publisher=Thomas Dunne Books UK
| ISBN=0312324480

| title= The Eagle's Prey
| author= Simon Scarrow
| date=Oct 13 2005
| publisher=Thomas Dunne Books UK
| ISBN=0312324510

| title= The Eagle's Prophecy
| author= Simon Scarrow
| date=Nov 28 2006
| publisher=Thomas Dunne Books UK
| ISBN=0312324545

| title= The Eagle in the Sand
| author= Simon Scarrow
| date=Aug 7 2006
| publisher=Headline Book Publishing US?
| ISBN=0755327748

There are 7 books in Scarrow's series about a pair of Centurions from
Legio II Augusta, mostly set in Roman Britain in the time of
Claudius,
with Vespasian as legion commander. An eighth volume is due in march
2008. (Looks like next March will be a good month :-)
-----
| title= Pompeii
| author= Robert Harris
| date=Nov 18 2003
| publisher=Random House US
| ISBN=0679428895

Set before & during the eruption in 79 AD.

| title= Imperium
| author= Robert Harris
| date=Sep 19 2006
| publisher=Simon & Schuster US
| ISBN=074326603X

A novel of Cicero's life and times, up to the start of his
Consulship.
Apparently first of a trilogy.
-----

I also read a couple of the Conn Iggulden books on Caesar, but can't
recommend them.

There's a good series of mysteries by John Maddox Roberts ("SPQR"),
another by David Wishart ("Corvinus"), and a third by Rosemary Rowe
("Libertus"), which also need to be added to the Nova Roma list.

dave

Salvete

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Equitius Cato" <mlcinnyc@...>
wrote:

> "Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the
> dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they were defeated
> and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. And the great
> dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent who is called the Devil
> and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world - he was thrown down to
> the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him." - The Book of
> The Revelation of St. John the Divine 12:7-9
>
> Today is the Feast of St. Michael the Archangel
>

Or perhaps the Feast of Ra? This is an old story. From the Egyptian
Book of Coming Forth, Ch. 17.21-22

"As concerning the fight which took place near the Acacia Tree in
(Heliopolis), these words refer to the slaughter of the children of
the rebellion, when righteous retribution was meted out to them for
the evil which they had done.
"As concerning the 'Night of the Battle' these words refer to the
invasion of the eastern portion of the heaven by those children of
rebellion, whereupon a great battle arose in heaven and in all the
earth."

The tale goes that when Seth and his followers were defeated in the
Night of the Battle that took place in Heaven, they descended to the
earth and tried to escape by disguisng themselves in the forms of
animals. And there beneath the acacia tree they were slaughtered and
their forms thrown into the Lake of Fire. Seth Himself took the form
of a serpent. Ra is sometimes depicted as a cat cutting off the head
of the serpent, or else He is seen in His boat spearing the dragon
form of Seth.

Valete
M Moravius Piscinus

OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodiernus dies est pridie Kalendas Octobris; haec dies comitialis est.

"My full heart bids me boldly sing the horses of the ravisher from the
underworld and the stars darkened by the shadow of his infernal
chariot and the gloomy chambers of the queen of Hell. Come not nigh,
ye unititiate. Now has divine madness driven all mortal thoughts from
my breast, and my heart is filled with Phoebus' inspiration; now see I
the shrine reel and its foundations totter while the threshold glows
with radiant light telling that the god is at hand. And now I hear a
loud din from the depths of the earth, the temple of Cecrops re-echoes
and Eleusis waves its holy torches. The hissing snakes of Triptolemus
raise their scaly necks chafed by the curving collar, and, uptowering
as they glide smoothly along, stretch forth their rosy crests toward
the chant. See from afar rises Hecate with her three various heads and
with her comes forth Iacchus smooth of skin, his temples crowned with
ivy. There clothes him the pelt of a Parthian tiger, its gilded claws
knotted together, and the Lydian thyrsus guides his drunken footsteps.

Ye gods, whom the numberless host of the dead serves in ghostly
Avernus, into whose greedy treasury is paid all that perishes upon
earth, ye whose fields the pale streams of intertwining Styx surround,
while Phlegethon, his rapids tossed in spray, flows through them with
steaming eddies — do you unfold for me the mysteries of your sacred
story and the secrets of your world. Say with what torch the god of
love overcame Dis, and tell how Proserpine was stolen away in her
maiden pride to win Chaos as a dower; and how through many lands
Ceres, sore troubled, pursued her anxious search; whence cornº was
given to man whereby he laid aside his acorn food, and the new-found
ear made useless Dodona's oaks.

Meanwhile Proserpine is borne away in the winged car, her hair
streaming before the wind, beating her arms in lamentation and calling
in vain remonstrance to the clouds: ['Why hast thou not hurled at me,
father, bolts forged by the Cyclopes' hands? Was this thy will to
deliver thy daughter to the cruel shades and drive her for ever from
this world? Does love move thee not at all? Hast thou nothing of a
father's feeling? What ill deed of mine has stirred such anger in
thee? When Phlegra raged with war's madness I bore no standard against
the gods; 'twas through no strength of mine that ice-bound Ossa
supported frozen Olympus. For attempt of what crime, for complicity
with what guilt, am I thrust down in banishment to the bottomless pit
of Hell? Happy girls whom other ravishers have stolen; they at least
enjoy the general light of day, while I, together with my virginity,
lose the air of heaven; stolen from me alike is innocence and
daylight. Needs must I quit this world and be led a captive bride to
serve Hell's tyrant. Ye flowers that I loved in so evil an hour, oh,
why did I scorn my mother's warning? Too late did I detect the wiles
of Venus. Mother, my mother, whether in the vales of Phrygian Ida the
dread pipe sounds about thine ears with Lydian strains, or thou
hauntest mount Dindymus, ahowl with self-mutilated Galli, and
beholdest the naked swords of the Curetes, aid me in my bitter need;
frustrate Pluto's mad lust and stay the funereal reins of my fierce
ravisher.'" Claudian, "The Rape of Proserpine" XXXIII, XXXV

As September moves on and October greets us, the days grow shorter and
we remember the changing of the seasons because of great Pluto's
abduction of Proserpine, Ceres' only daughter.


"It was by my account the 30th of September, when, in the manner as
above said, I first set foot upon this horrid island; when the sun,
being to us in its autumnal equinox, was almost over my head; for I
reckoned myself, by observation, to be in the latitude of nine degrees
twenty-two minutes north of the line. After I had been there about
ten or twelve days, it came into my thoughts that I should lose my
reckoning of time for want of books, and pen and ink, and should even
forget the Sabbath days; but to prevent this, I cut with my knife upon
a large post, in capital letters-and making it into a great cross, I
set it up on the shore where I first landed – 'I came on shore here on
the 30th September 1659.'" - Defoe, "Robinson Crusoe" ch. 4

Valete bene!

Cato



SOURCES

Claudian, Defoe

SALVETE!

The second edition of Dacia webzine: "Dacia Felix" is online. The
webzine language is Romanian but the best article will be translated
in English for the next edition of "Columnae Herculis".

"Dacia Felix" webzine is to the next web address:

http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Dacia_Felix_%28Nova_Roma%29

All citizens, provisional citizens and peregrini from Dacia,interested
to contribute with articles are encouraged to join to our mailing list:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dacia-newsletter/

VALETE,
IVL SABINVS