---Salvete Gn. Equitius Marinus, Honoured Tribunes, Galerius Consul:

With respect, we've been chipping away at election process tweaks for
a few years, to little avail. Changes of this nature are slow.
Goodness, I don't expect the Consul to rewrite large portions of the
Lex Fabia by any means...there is alot of benefit to the law.

How about a simple amendment to cover us until next year's consuls, if
they choose, make more permanent revisions to the law? We don't know
when we will have to call the comitia centuriata again for a
magistrate...it could be like February..'Where Fortune leads us, no
man can know'

How's about 'Sequential voting for magistrates as described in this
lex may be waived at the discretion of the presiding magistrate'

Even that'll do. Until future administrations decide on another plan
altogether, if they like. A little Zantac for future, unexpected
bellyaches.

Valete
Pompeia


In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@...> wrote:

>
> Salve Tiberia, et salvete quirites,
>
> pompeia_minucia_tiberia <pompeia_minucia_tiberia@...> writes:
>
> [an awful lot, well thought out]
>
> I'm just going to address this part:
> > That said, why are we not seeing this addressed on the current ballot,
> > as the Consul said he would do in his edict canceling the elections?
>
> I think Consul Paulinus wants to simply waive the sequential voting
> for this election, and leave reform of the law to next year's consuls.
>
> I would agree with this approach. Changing any law should take time,
> even when we have something as straightforward as we think we have
> here, where the only change that appears to be needed is removal of
> the sequential voting specifications.
>
> Vale, et valete,
>
> CN-EQVIT-MARINVS
>

INTERCESSIO ON EDICTUM XXIII

Fl. Galerius Aurelianus Tribunus Plebis S.P.D.

The Constitution of Nova Roma does not allow a Consul to overturn the
results of nor to void an election once it has begun.

"2. Consul. Two consuls shall be elected annually by the comitia centuriata
to serve a term lasting one year. They shall have the following honors,
powers, and obligations:
1. To hold Imperium and have the honor of being preceded by twelve
lictors;
2. To issue those edicta (edicts) necessary to engage in those tasks
which advance the mission and function of Nova Roma (such edicts being binding
upon themselves as well as others);
3. To call the Senate, the comitia centuriata, and the comitia populi
tributa to order;
4. To pronounce intercessio (intercession; a veto) against another
consul or magistrate of lesser authority;
5. To appoint accensi (personal assistants) to assist with
administrative and other tasks, as they shall see fit."
A Tribunus Plebis is not required by the Constitution to identify the
specific portion of the Constitution or leges that he or she feel is being violated.

"7. Tribuni Plebis (Tribune of the Plebs). Five tribunes of the plebs shall
be elected by the comitia plebis tributa to serve a term lasting one year.
They must all be of the plebeian order, and shall have the following honors,
powers, and obligations:
1. To pronounce intercessio (intercession; a veto) against the actions
of any other magistrate (with the exception of the dictator and the interrex),
Senatus consulta, magisterial edicta, religious decreta, and leges passed by
the comitia when the spirit and/or letter of this Constitution or
legally-enacted edicta or decreta, Senatus Consulta or leges are being violated
thereby; once a pronouncement of intercessio has been made, the other Tribunes may,
at their discretion, state either their support for or their disagreement
with that intercessio.
1. Each Tribune may issue only one such declaration of support or
disagreement, but may change their declaration from one to the other, should they
wish to do so.
2. The initial pronouncement of intercessio by a Tribune shall count as
that Tribune's declaration of agreement.
3. Should the number or the Tribunes who choose to disagree with an
intercessio equal or exceed the number of Tribunes who choose to support it, the
intercessio shall be revoked.
1. Intercessio may not be imposed against statements of support for or
disagreement with a use of intercessio that are issued pursuant to the
preceding paragraph.
2. The issuance and function of intercessio shall be defined according
to procedures described by legislation passed by Comitia.

2. To pronounce intercessio (intercession; a veto) against another
Tribune using the same mechanism as described in paragraph IV.A.7.a. above;
3. To be immune from intercessio pronounced by other magistrates, except
as described in paragraphs IV.A.7.a. and IV.A.7.b. above;
4. To be privy to the debates of the Senate, and keep the citizens
informed as to the subjects and results thereof, in such manner and subject to
such restrictions as may be defined by law;
1. To call the Senate to order;
2. To call the comitia plebis tributa to order, except when the
Patrician order shall constitute more than ten percent (10%) of the total population,
in which case the power shall be altered to calling the comitia populi
tributa to order;
3. To administer the law;
4. To appoint scribae (clerks) to assist with administrative and other
tasks, as they shall see fit.

I respectfully ask that Tb. Galerius Paulinus, Consul of Nova Roma, provide
me with documentation that the Constitution or leges of Nova Roma allow him
to void an election once it has begun. If he cannot do so, my intercessio
against his Edictum XXIII stands unless I am forced to revoke my intercessio by
my colleagues.

Valete.



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

If you are going to void my intercessio, please remember that you are
supporting actions of an elected magistrate that are unconstitutional. This may
come back to haunt you, colleague.

Fl. Galerius Aurelianus



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Complutensis Tribunus Plebis,

I have been away from my computer since Friday and just got back from my
granddaughter's birthday party. I cannot understand how you can support this
unconstitutional act of voiding the current election.

Fl. Galerius Aurelianus



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fl. Galerius Aurelianus Cn. Equitio Marino sal.

After years of telling the members of Nova Roma how important it is to obey
the Constitution and leges of our organization, you want to break many points
of the Constitution and leges because they are now inconvenient to your run
at office. This stinks!


"I would agree with this approach. Changing any law should take time,
even when we have something as straightforward as we think we have
here, where the only change that appears to be needed is removal of
the sequential voting specifications.

Vale, et valete,

CN-EQVIT-MARINVS"

Vale.



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Aureliane,

Get a grip Tribune. You go much too far.

I have certainly asked nobody to violate the Constitution. I asked
the Consul to waive a requirement of a Lex in order that a vacant
office might be filled. I have no need to accumulate any more century
points or offices. What I wish is to make sure that the work gets
done next year.

I doubt you'll apologize for this utterly unwarranted accusation, but
it would be nice if you proved me wrong on this.

CN-EQVIT-MARINVS

PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@... writes:

> Fl. Galerius Aurelianus Cn. Equitio Marino sal.
>
> After years of telling the members of Nova Roma how important it is to obey
> the Constitution and leges of our organization, you want to break many points
> of the Constitution and leges because they are now inconvenient to your run
> at office. This stinks!

Salve Honoured Tribune:

I am not a highranking magistrate, but I would like to make a few
comments with your indulgence, to hopefully make things more clear.

In the first instance, I understand your concerns. It is *highly*
irregular to stop an election, but the Consul, Tribunes are
responsible for making sure the law is administered, and
constitutional mandates are upheld.

Let us look at the constitution that says the people have a right to
vote in elections...this is a right to a 'fair' election, yes?

I will tell you solemnly, and so will the Censors, that the election
results were bogus thus far, because of a computer foul up, which:

a) created too many centuries per assidui

b) sent century member deported to other centuries

Our laws expanding on the voting privileges of citizens give greater
voting power to the citizens who pay taxes and who lend the most time
to the republic in service. So, if they should be in Century III and
end up in Century XXXIII, is this a fair process? Just an example.
This unfortunate turn of electronic events did not render a fair
election process respecting the voting rights of citizens, and that
would include Plebians also voting in the Comitia Centuriata.

If the Consul and/or Tribunes feel that the election is creating
unfairness, potentially disadvantaging voter and candidate alike, well
this is not a lawful process, and it dims the spirit of the
constitution. What choice is there in such an extenuating
circumstance other than to start anew, once the centuries are
realigned? They have been, and I understand the glitches have been
identified and steps taken to ensure smooth sailing from here on in.

Moreover, the Consul stopped this election after the Prime Century
only was scheduled to vote, and nobody else was scheduled to vote.
So, he didn't halt the election near the end, but very close to the
beginning when the problem was called to his attention. Had he of
stopped it late in the game, it would certainly be a story of
suspicion, but he didn't. Clearly, this was his only option.

I know you are wanting the law honoured, but the law doesn't ever
uphold a bogus election, and it would have been bogus votes, bogus
results.

*********

To the issue of sequential voting.

Remember when I issued the announcement stating that the Prime Century
(Century Praerogavita) voting time had expired? I was hoping people
would stop voting. People outside this century were voting like
crazy. And I still got votes this morning, so I reminded citizens
that we are no longer voting for the moment.

I am *loathe* to monkey with comitia laws, but if we do not amend this
clause, we are going to have the same damned scenerio with votes being
tossed out the window en masse because people are voting out of
sequence. For this reason or that, there is a learning curve to this
sequential voting, law as it is, and this in itself deprives people of
their constitutional right to vote. I have never been on the election
staff before, but I can't believe it. We are going to end up with
false results....not results representative of a true majority of voters.

We are in a bind.

By the same token, I think if we are going to monkey with laws, we
need to place an amendment to the existing law, even just a sentence,
to fix the problem, even if in the interim, in the event the Consuls
next year want to redo things. "Sequential voting for magistrates
described in this lex may be waived at the discretion of the presiding
magistrate'...or delete the sequential voting stuff, and say
'elections for leges and magistrates shall be 120 hours in length'.
We can pick a Century Praerogavita and just count that century first,
rather than try to get voters in at various times. I'm happy to give
the Consul a hand if he wishes.

I hope this helps. I understand your concerns, but you are with
respect, vetoing the Consul's halting of a bogus election in its very
early stages. If I had a beef with this, I would say so....I
don't...I don't see what else he could have done.

****

As for my concerns with the *current* comitia call I expressed earlier
this evening, they still stand. But the fact that he halted this
election was the best and only thing he could have done, in the
interest of the rights of the citizenry, voters, candidates, republic.


Valete
Pompeia
Custos

Fl. Galerius Aurelianus Tribunus Plebis Cn. Equitio Marino sal.

I have a tight grip on my understanding of my duties and oath as a Tribune
and I haven't gone nearly far enough.

I have been one of the lone voices in the wilderness for years asking that
magistrates take some time before passing leges that might be better
constructed or that our organization should strive for simplicity or streamlining our
body of by-laws. This stance was usually met with how unhistorical that would
be or some other good reason for a lex which would be really foolish for an
organization as small as Nova Roma.

Now, I am in an office where I am required by my oath to defend the
Constitution and leges and you have the utter gall to say I am going to far to try to
prevent a magistrate or group of magistrates from ignoring the rules we have
all repeatedly sworn to protect and abide by.

No. As long as I am in office, I will do my best to prevent magistrates and
former magistrates from issuing edicta that violates our organizations
constitution and by-laws. You should be apologizing to the entire organization
for proposing that rules be broken for convenience.

Vale.

Salve Aureliane,

Get a grip Tribune. You go much too far.

I have certainly asked nobody to violate the Constitution. I asked
the Consul to waive a requirement of a Lex in order that a vacant
office might be filled. I have no need to accumulate any more century
points or offices. What I wish is to make sure that the work gets
done next year.

I doubt you'll apologize for this utterly unwarranted accusation, but
it would be nice if you proved me wrong on this.

CN-EQVIT-MARINVS




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fl. Galerius Aurelianus Tribunus Plebis S.P.D.

It is the responsibility of the Censores, Consuls, and other official
directly in charge of the election to see that they are run correctly vis a vis
before, during, and after. It is obvious that neither the Censores or Consuls
made sure that everything necessary was in place.

I want to see the Constitution and laws of our organization upheld but I
cannot support the current action because of a 'bogus' election. I do not
recall a single part of the Constitution and by-laws that uses the term 'bogus' as
a reason for an irregular (i.e. illegal) action.

I expect our elected magistrates to find the problems, fix the problems, and
then follow our rules to resolve the issue.

My intercessio can be over ridden. If my colleagues would prefer to ignore
their oaths and duties for the sake of convenience and to allow the
inefficient work of other magistrates to be ignored for the sake of the same
convenience, then they should go ahead. I'm sure that will be an enormous comfort to
our new magistrates when it will be used as a precedent in the future.

All I have is my oath to do my best as a Tribunus Plebis. I cannot stop a
blantantly illegal action if the magistrates choose to do so but I have to
raise my voice. I have sworn to do something and cannot ignore my oath while I
am in office.

Valete.

___________________________________________

Salve Honoured Tribune:

I am not a highranking magistrate, but I would like to make a few
comments with your indulgence, to hopefully make things more clear.

In the first instance, I understand your concerns. It is *highly*
irregular to stop an election, but the Consul, Tribunes are
responsible for making sure the law is administered, and
constitutional mandates are upheld.

Let us look at the constitution that says the people have a right to
vote in elections...vote in elections...<WBR>this is a right

I will tell you solemnly, and so will the Censors, that the election
results were bogus thus far, because of a computer foul up, which:

a) created too many centuries per assidui

b) sent century member deported to other centuries

Our laws expanding on the voting privileges of citizens give greater
voting power to the citizens who pay taxes and who lend the most time
to the republic in service. So, if they should be in Century III and
end up in Century XXXIII, is this a fair process? Just an example.
This unfortunate turn of electronic events did not render a fair
election process respecting the voting rights of citizens, and that
would include Plebians also voting in the Comitia Centuriata.

If the Consul and/or Tribunes feel that the election is creating
unfairness, potentially disadvantaging voter and candidate alike, well
this is not a lawful process, and it dims the spirit of the
constitution. What choice is there in such an extenuating
circumstance other than to start anew, once the centuries are
realigned? They have been, and I understand the glitches have been
identified and steps taken to ensure smooth sailing from here on in.

Moreover, the Consul stopped this election after the Prime Century
only was scheduled to vote, and nobody else was scheduled to vote.
So, he didn't halt the election near the end, but very close to the
beginning when the problem was called to his attention. Had he of
stopped it late in the game, it would certainly be a story of
suspicion, but he didn't. Clearly, this was his only option.

I know you are wanting the law honoured, but the law doesn't ever
uphold a bogus election, and it would have been bogus votes, bogus
results.

*********

To the issue of sequential voting.

Remember when I issued the announcement stating that the Prime Century
(Century Praerogavita) voting time had expired? I was hoping people
would stop voting. People outside this century were voting like
crazy. And I still got votes this morning, so I reminded citizens
that we are no longer voting for the moment.

I am *loathe* to monkey with comitia laws, but if we do not amend this
clause, we are going to have the same damned scenerio with votes being
tossed out the window en masse because people are voting out of
sequence. For this reason or that, there is a learning curve to this
sequential voting, law as it is, and this in itself deprives people of
their constitutional right to vote. I have never been on the election
staff before, but I can't believe it. We are going to end up with
false results....not results representative of a true majority of voters.

We are in a bind.

By the same token, I think if we are going to monkey with laws, we
need to place an amendment to the existing law, even just a sentence,
to fix the problem, even if in the interim, in the event the Consuls
next year want to redo things. "Sequential voting for magistrates
described in this lex may be waived at the discretion of the presiding
magistrate'.magistrate'.<WBR>..or delete the sequential voting
'elections for leges and magistrates shall be 120 hours in length'.
We can pick a Century Praerogavita and just count that century first,
rather than try to get voters in at various times. I'm happy to give
the Consul a hand if he wishes.

I hope this helps. I understand your concerns, but you are with
respect, vetoing the Consul's halting of a bogus election in its very
early stages. If I had a beef with this, I would say so....I
don't...I don't see what else he could have done.

****

As for my concerns with the *current* comitia call I expressed earlier
this evening, they still stand. But the fact that he halted this
election was the best and only thing he could have done, in the
interest of the rights of the citizenry, voters, candidates, republic.

Valete
Pompeia
Custos




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nope, no waivers. Nada, zip, zilch, zero.

Fl. Galerius Aurelianus
Tribunus Plebis





Salve Complutensi,

M·CVR·COMPLVTENSIS <_complutensis@compluten_ (mailto:complutensis@...)

> writes:

> Salve Marine etr salvete omnes
>
> the Tribunes have not yet spoken on this subject.

Then I shall await their decision. I had asked the Consul to obtain
tribunician agreement to this idea. As I'm sure you know, it requires
a waiver of the provisions of the Lex Salicia de Continuatio et
Cumulatio.

Vale,

CN-EQVIT-MARINVS





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sorry. I will not waive the requirements of any of our current leges that
are in force. If we need to extend an office or call a new election to fill a
vacancy after the first election is legally completed, we have leges that
deal with those issues.

Fl. Galerius Aurelianus,
Tribunus Plebis

Salvete quirites,

As the more perceptive among you have noticed, Consul Paulinus has
placed my name on the revised ballot for Curule Aedile. This resulted
from a private note I sent to him yesterday, offering to stand for
this important office that was going vacant. However, I have not yet
posted an official declaration.

This post is the declaration. I am standing for Curule Aedile on the
condition that the consul is willing to waive the requirements of the
Lex Salicia de Continuatione et Cumulatione and the Tribunes agree to
this waiver.

I have twice before served as Curule Aedile. I have also served in a
number of Aedilician cohorts, beginning with that of Caeso Fabius
Buteo Quintilianus, and continuing through the present. I know what
needs to be done, and I know how to do it. I have participated in the
Magna Mater Project for many years now, and I will insure that it is
properly managed next year.

The reason this is a conditional declaration is because it is subject
to the approval of both the presiding magistrate, Consul Paulinus, and
the approval of the Tribunes since they are the guardians of Nova
Roma's constitution.

Valete,

CN-EQVIT-MARINVS



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
> A. Tullia Scholastica Pompeiae Minuciae Straboni quiritibus bonae voluntatis
> S.P.D.
>
>
> ---Salvete M. Curiatus Complutensis Tribune, Tiberius Galerius
> Paulinus Consul et Omnes.
>
> I am an awful girl to nag,I know :>), but I have some serious
> questions about this comitia call.
>
> I. The C. Pop. Tributa, C. Centuriata elections were stopped for good
> reasons, and I feel that the Consul acted appropriately. Stopped due
> to an unfortunate complication with century alignment.
>
> ATS: It does seem quite unfair that some where placed in centuria zero,
> thus prevented from voting, and rather odd, to say the least, that one
> centuria, III, had two members while the rest of the first class centuriae had
> three, and I at least was in two different centuries in 48 hours or so.
> Supernumerary centuriae also do not lead one to have a great deal of
> confidence in the election results.
>
> What evolved
> out of the election experience was a realization that the sequential
> voting was complicating the whole process. For this reason or that,
> it isn't working...it is not being followed properly.
>
> ATS: It has not been followed completely properly even in the past, but
> that does not invalidate the fact that it is the LAW, and we must follow it.
> There are ways of dealing with this. It is not the sequential voting, but
> other factors which are involved.
>
>
> It is too
> complicated for busy citizens living in different time zones, with
> varying knowledge of historical details, and varying languages.
>
> ATS: More education in advance of the election, conducted in several
> languages, should help cure that problem. It is, however, patently unfair to
> allow only about one day for the lower class centuries to vote. Especially
> with the issue of widely varying time zones, that cannot be defended. It is
> simply unjust. Extend the voting period for the lower centuries, post
> information on New Roman and the other lists regarding the voting procedures,
> and do so in as many of the common languages as possible. The interpreters
> should be doing this on their own, but don¹t seem responsive even when I ask
> them.
>
>
> It is
> not lending to an accurate election result, or fair voter privilege,
> except in the strictest legalistic context.
>
>
> ATS: I disagree, if the procedure is followed, as it was initially. Ne
> dicam RHIP. Those in the upper centuries worked hard to get there.
>
> That said, why are we not seeing this addressed on the current ballot,
> as the Consul said he would do in his edict canceling the elections?
>
> ATS: There should indeed be a proposal on this issue, but the absence of
> sequential voting while the law mandating it is in effect is clearly illegal.
>
>
> The Tribunes were written to ask if you collectively saw a problem
> with foregoing the sequential voting aspect of the Lex Fabia Ratione
> Comitium Centuriatum due to the problems it is producing. This was
> Friday, and now Sunday the comitia is called with a one-day contio no
> less, which doesn't even allot time for the Tribunes to consider the
> comitia call in any case, to see if they have issues with it.
>
> ATS: And they should have an issue with foregoing a legally-mandated
> procedure. I do.
>
> My
> concern is: if the Tribunes are being asked to cooperate with the
> modification of a comitia law for the benefit of the people, should it
> be unreasonable to *expect* to see a modification of this law before
> the people to fix this problem once and for all? You are being asked
> to ignore the law, and with sound rationale... but with no steps on
> the part of the Consul to repair the problem. To add, any Consular
> edict modifying the process is going to expire in January 2008. And
> we are left with the same problem.
>
> ATS: We may need changes in the law, but we should not disregard the one
> we have.
>
> II. My next concern I've touched on above, but it is the length of
> the contio itself. When new laws are introduced, and one has been, we
> need a contio of 5 days. The only provision in the Leges Fabiae on
> Comitia Pop Tributa/Comitia Centuriata elections for such a short
> contio is in the case of magisterial vacancies.
>
> http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2003-12-02-i.html
>
> http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2003-10-08-i.html
>
> I would remind the Tribunes that regardless of this short contio, you
> still have by the constitution 72 hours to pronounce intercessio for
> any reason you see legally necessary. Why I'm raising these concerns
> up front. I don't want to have to do this again. Nobody does I'm
> sure...and, with respect, to race into things with steeplechase
> velocity only begs for errors and further disillusionment.
>
> ATS: Indeed; the Lex de Cursu is hardly given enough time for contio
> before voting was to start.
>
>
> III. My next issue concerns the Proposed Lex Galeria de Curso Honorum
> . I've said already that the contio is too short for a brand new lex,
> and the lex itself is legally inappropriate:
>
> Since when does the Comitia Populi Tributa set policy for the Comitia
> Centuriata's internal affairs....including their magistrates'
> qualifications, penalties for their resigned magistrates, etc.? The
> constitution is clear when it states that each comitia enacts laws and
> regulations governing their own respective internal affairs.
>
> ATS: Exactly. The comitia centuriata make their own laws (comitia are
> plural...the singular is comitium).
>
>
> This law
> will cover only Comitia Populi Tributa magistrates. This comitia in
> itself can't strip century points from a Consul if he resigns, set
> qualifications for Praetor or Censor.
>
> In short:
>
> This lex is improperly promulgated.
>
> It is not legally binding on the Comitia Centuriata or the internal
> affairs of Comitia Plebis Tributa
>
> *********
>
> These are my legal concerns. I agree with those who think more time
> is needed to discuss Cursus Honorum requirements, penalties for
> resignations, etc.......and some other time.
>
> ATS: These matters do indeed merit a good, rational discussion...over
> some time.
>
>
> We have laws in place
> which will do nicely for now..right now we should be focusing on the
> more pressing issue, which is the sequential voting problem...the
> problem you have been asked to turn a legal blind eye in favour of,
> but yet remains unaddressed by the Consul, as per his pledge.
>
>
> ATS: And we should not turn a blind eye to this issue, especially when
> the problem would likely be cured by more education, a longer time for voting
> in the lower centuries, and perhaps by staggering the elections altogether, so
> that the diribitores and custodes could learn their tasks by starting with the
> plebeian elections, have a break, then do the comitia populi tributa
> elections, have a break, THEN do the Comitia Centuriata. Sequentially.
>
> I recommend the Consul rewrite his comitia calls, with a proper contio
> length...write a modification of the clause of the Lex Fabia
> concerning sequential voting for contio (shouldn't take that long) and
> promulate it in the Comitia Centuriata not Comitia Populi Tributa.
> Also, I would nix the Cursus Honourum offering for reasons explained
> above.
>
> ATS: I agree with most of this, but again say that if we ignore the Lex
> Fabia for the sake of convenience, we are running roughshod over the very laws
> that the magistrates swore to uphold, and every citizen promised to obey when
> agreeing to citizenship. I hope that the tribuni will take this into account,
> and act appropriately. The populi tributa call should have the Lex de cursu
> removed, and more time allotted for its discussion in the comitia which it
> will govern should it be passed, the comitia centuriata, and the centuriata
> call should be amended to include the sequential voting required by our laws.
> Perhaps this could be accomplished by calling the populi tributa election
> before, not during, the centuriata one; there seems to be no problem with that
> other than that the lex de cursu [fourth declension, ablative in ­u, not ­o]
> should be moved to the centuriata.
>
> My thanks in advance to the Consul and Tribunes for consideration of
> my concerns.
>
> Valete
> Po Minucua Strabo
> Custos/Procuratrix
> Senatrix
>
> Vale, et valete.
>
>
>
> In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com> ,
> M·CVR·COMPLVTENSIS <complutensis@...>
> wrote:
>> >
>> > Marcus Curiatius Complutensis omnes civibus Novae Romae S·P·D·
>> >
>> > Ex officio Tribuni Plebis
>> >
>> > Salvete
>> >
>> > Now it seems we have much in a hurry to finish the elections. After
> the problems with the centuries I would have preferred a little more
> calm ......and scheduling the election respecting the intercessio
> period......
>> >
>> > Recently I declared invalidad the candidacy of one of my colleagues
> who wished to stand for the same office.
>> >
>> > Now my friend Marinus, against the Lex Salicia de Continuatio et
> Cumulatio, asked us, the Tribunes, to make an exception and allow him
> an accumulation of charges before term forecast (Dec 15).
>> >
>> > Seems that I am the only Tribune who is working, because I have
> asked the opinion of my colleagues without reply.
>> >
>> > In these circumstances I cannot accept the second candidacy of
> Equitius Marinus and I ask him to wait the term fixed by law.
>> >
>> > All this knowing that Equitius Marinus is a very skilled and
> probably the most suitable candidate to fill these two positions
> simultaneously, but the law is the law.
>> >
>> > Now I want make a declaration: we the Tribunes were consulted and
> required to make an exception to the law, but at no time did we
> declare for or against.
>> >
>> > The Consul Galerius Paulinus has committed a serie of faults:
>> >
>> > 1 .- put in the mouth of the tribunes words ever uttered
>> > 2 .- declare valid an candidacy declaration which had not been
> published by the candidate in the ML according to the consular edict.
>> > 3.- declare valid an candidacy declaration that he knew was not valid
>> > 4.- call the Comitia without respecting the intercessio period.
>> >
>> > I do not want to outlaw these elections, therefore I cannot support
> the veto of my colleague Galerius Aurelianus but I want ask the Consul
> to refrain from committing further irregularities.
>> >
>> > Valete
>> >
>> > M·CVRIATIVS·COMPLVTENSIS
>> > TRIBVNVS PLEBIS
>> > NOVA ROMA
>> >
>> > -------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > ex paucis multa, ex minimis maxima
>> >
>> >

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete Nova Romans

Tribune Fl. Galerius Aurelianus has vetoed my EDICTUM XXIII
in which I withdrew my edicts calling the Comitia Centuriata
and the Comitia Populi Tributa to convene. Tribune Fl. Galerius
Aurelianus has done his duty and there is merit in a great deal of what
he has said. Not all but a lot.

I issued the call for the purpose of electing magistrates
and enacting laws. I stopped the first election because
of century misalignment and the fact that the vote counters
said they would not process any votes until the centuries were
set up correctly.

I also included candidates in my call that some felt had not
complied with the instructions of MY edict. Why others get to
interpret MY edict is an issue for another day.

I then compounded these problems by agreed to start over
without using sequential voting as the law requires and as the
good Tribune has pointed out.

The long and the short of it is that I screwed up.

So this is what I am going to do not to try are recover a little of my
Dignitas and get the elections back on a sound legal basis.

1. I will be reissuing my call for both the Comitia Centuriata
and the Comitia Populi Tributa to convene.

2. I will do so requiring sequential voting but with the caveat that
any vote cast will be counted in its correct time but without the need to
revote.
One of the reasons that sequential voting doesn�t work in the Comitia
Centuriata
is that YOU the voters

ARE NOT PAYING ATTENTION TO WHEN YOU SHOULD CAST
YOUR BALLOT. PLEASE TAKE FIVE MINTUES TO DETERMINE
YOUR CENTURY AND VOTE AT THE RIGHT TIME.

3 I will include all individuals who expressed a wish to stand regardless
of how their intent was conveyed to me. During these election candidates
will be permitted to stand for one office only.

4 I will include only the original three proposed laws from my first call.

The other proposed laws, including one to aboish sequential voting can wait
until the end of this election. We will also issue a second call for
candidates
at that time to fill the remaining offices of the republic.

I thank Tribune Fl. Galerius Aurelianus for doing his job.


Valete

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Consul

Salvete T. Galerius Paulinus Consul, Tribunes, et Omnes Novae Romae


I don't know if this is a very good suggestion, but with trepidation I'll throw it in the suggestion box..if nothing else, it will be good for a laugh. But, it just might satisfy all parties concerned. Certainly there is a dilemma this time around with the letter of the law vs the spirit.

With the Comitia Centuriata:

1. Forgo the sequential voting (Don't hit me before reading step 3)

2. Amend the sequential voting clause of the Lex Fabia (one line would be all it takes, minimally) so sequential voting may be waived in future elections, which can take place *sooner* than *later*

3. If we do forgo the sequential voting, and I know there are alot of mixed feelings about this given that its part of the law, but an undesirable part, a one-time lex could be placed on the ballot which says something like:

"Clause (whatever, I forget) of the Lex Fabia Ratione Comitiun Centuriatorum calls for votes to be case sequentially, to wit, Century Praerogatita, First Class, then all classes. Voters have been permitted to cast their ballots this election at any time during the voting period, irrespective of century standing, to prevent an inordinate number of votes from being spoiled due to voting out of sequence. Votes are being tallied by order of Century standing however, by the mandates of the above lex. I agree to this waiver of sequential voting in this Comitia Centuriata election, and accept the results as relayed by the Custodes and Diribitores 2760 A.U.C."

This way the people waive this, not just the magistrates.

Valete
Pompeia

I know the wording needs to be tweaked but that's the general idea.

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Scaurus Quiritibus SPD.

Sequential voting preserves an important religious tradition in which
the centuria praerogativa represents an opporunity for the Di
Immortales to express their electoral preferences. We get so little
right in NR; let's not repudiate what we manage to get right.

Valete.

Scaurus

M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus Quiritibus et omnibus salutem
plurimam dicit: Diis bene iuvantibus simus.

Hodie est die pristini Eidus Novembris; haec dies comitialis est:

AUC 697 / 56 BCE

Clodius Pulcher attacked the house of Milo.

AUC 363 / 390 BCE

"When Rome was captured by the Gauls and the Flamen Quirinalis and
the Vestales Virgines were transporting the sacred objects, dividing
the load between them, they crossed the Pons Sublicius and began to
ascend the slope that leads to the Janiculum. Lucius Albanius, who
was carrying his wife and daughters in a cart, saw them. Public
religion being closer to him than private affection, he told his
family to get down from the cart and put the Virgins and cult objects
into it, and abandoning the journey he had begun took them to the
town of Caere, where they were received with profound reverence.
Grateful memory bears witness to its kindly hospitality even to this
day, for sacred rites were called caeremonia because the inhabitants
of Caere cared for them in the shattered state of our commonwealth as
reverently as when it had been flourishing. Their rustic, grimy cart,
so ooportunely capacious, might equal or surpass the glory of the
most effulgent of triumphal chariots." ~ Valerius Maximus 1.1.10

"Another crowd, mainly of plebeians, for whom there was not room on
so small a hill as the Capitolium or food enough in the scanty store
of corn, poured out of the City in one continuous line and made for
the Janiculum. From there they dispersed, some over the country,
others towards the neighbouring cities, without any leader or
concerted action, each following his own aims, his own ideas, and all
despairing of the public safety. While all this was going on, the
Flamen of Quirinus and the Vestal virgins, without giving a thought
to their own property, were deliberating as to which of the sacred
things they ought to take with them, and which to leave behind, since
they had not strength enough to carry all, and also what place would
be the safest for their custody. They thought best to conceal what
they could not take in earthen jars and bury them under the chapel
next to the Flamen's house, where spitting is now forbidden (the
Doliola). The rest they divided amongst them and carried off, taking
the road which leads by the Pons Sublicius to the Janiculum. Whilst
ascending that hill they were seen by L. Albinius, a Roman plebeian
who with the rest of the crowd who were unfit for war was leaving the
City. Even in that critical hour the distinction between sacred and
profane was not forgotten. He had his wife and children with him in a
wagon, and it seemed to him an act of impiety for him and his family
to be seen in a vehicle whilst the national priests should be
trudging along on foot, bearing the sacred vessels of Rome. He
ordered his wife and children to get down, put the virgins and their
sacred burden in the wagon, and drove them to Caere, their
destination." ~ Livy 5.40


Our thought for today is from M Tullius Cicero, De Officiis 1.4.13

"Above all, the search after truth and its eager pursuit are peculiar
to man. And so, when we have leisure from the demands of business
cares, we are eager to see, to hear, to learn something new, and we
esteem a desire to know the secrets or wonders of creation as
indispensable to a happy life. Thus we come to understand that what
is true, simple, and genuine appeals most strongly to a man's or
woman'snature. To this passion for discovering truth there is added a
hungering, as it were, for independence, so that a mind well-moulded
by Nature is unwilling to be subject to anybody save one who gives
rules of conduct or is a teacher of truth or who, for the general
good, rules according to justice and law. From this attitude comes
greatness of soul and a sense of superiority to worldly conditions."

Salvete omnes

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "marcushoratius" <mhoratius@...>
wrote:

>
>
> Hodie est die pristini Eidus Novembris; haec dies comitialis est:
>
> "While all this was going on, the
> Flamen of Quirinus and the Vestal virgins, ...thought best to

conceal what

> they could not take in earthen jars and bury them under the chapel
> next to the Flamen's house, where spitting is now forbidden (the
> Doliola).

On the doliola, this was an area in the Forum. "That place near the
Cloaca Maxima which is called the doliola, "the Jars," where spitting
is prohibited, from some doliola 'jars' that were buried there under
the earth. Two stories about these are handed down: some say that
bones of dead men were in them, others that certain sacred objects
belonging to Numa Pompilius were buried in them after his death
(Varro, Lingua Latinae 5.157)."

This area laid beyond that placed described as the sepulcretum by
Boni. In earliest Rome and elsewhere in Latium, while round huts of
wattle and mud were still the norm, it was not unusual for a select
ancestor to be buried beneath the family's threshold. The same
custom can be found in other cultures. This may be an origin for the
shrine of Janus guarding the front door and certainly that of a
lararium placed near the front door of a Roman house. This type of
pozzo burial was a round pit sealed by a square of tufa, and
containing inside a large dolium jar that often contained a hut urn
with the cremated remains of the individual, along with offerings,
and sometimes minaturized offerings. Boni's sepulcretum was a
concentration of similar burials intermixed with fosse burials
(inhumation burials). The Romans may have well come upon the doliola
while constructing the Cloaca Maxima. The ritual items inside of
them would have been associated with Numa, since Romulus was said to
have lived on the Palatine, while the period of peace brought by Numa
allowed for the Forum lying between the Hills to become the center of
the City and residence for the kings. The human burials made the
place religiosum, which is why spitting was prohibited in that area
of the Forum, and it also had a special significance because it had
been the depository for the sacred articles kept by the Vestal
Virgins when hidden from the Gauls.

Valete optime
M Moravius Piscinus

---Minucia Scauro Pontifex sal.

As I said, my suggestion might be good for a laugh, depending on how
the Consul wanted to proceed, and it is his decision.

I am aware of the religious significance of sequential voting, the
Century Praerogavita,and I am not attempting to undermine that.

Anyway, the Consul is going to recall comitia with the proper contio
times and withdraw all but his original legislation proposals.

Near as I can tell, though, if I read his last announcement correctly,
we still won't be doing a sequential vote....we are just going to
*pretend* to do a sequential vote.

Which brings us back to us not complying with the Lex Fabia again,
which says that citizens are only 'permitted' to vote during the
appointed time of their respective centuries.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other...............

Vale




In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gregory Rose" <gregory.rose@...> wrote:

>
> Scaurus Quiritibus SPD.
>
> Sequential voting preserves an important religious tradition in which
> the centuria praerogativa represents an opporunity for the Di
> Immortales to express their electoral preferences. We get so little
> right in NR; let's not repudiate what we manage to get right.
>
> Valete.
>
> Scaurus
>

Salvete omnes,

honor and praise to all soldiers fighting for their home countries !

Mars nos protegis!

Titus Flavius Aquila
Scriba censoris
Tribunus Plebis Candidatus

Q. Valerius Poplicola M. Moravio Piscino amico SPVD:

At 180 BCE, you could still own Romans as slaves for failure to pay a
debt. I don't think the times before that should be our marker. Rome
is not monolithous - the legislation of Sulla and later (and even
before, but this is a perfect example) the leges corneliae proves that
the cursus honorum is not a myth. Just because sometimes there were
exceptions doesn't mean that there wasn't a rule.

Just keeping facts straight. Besides, M. Valerius Corvus was tribune
before he was consul. And Caesar Augustus raised an army with his own
expense at the age of 19, but we likewise shouldn't be supporting
future princeps acting as a dictator perpetuus here either.

Finally, a question to you - what's wrong with demanding experience
before handling the highest offices here? If we think of it in either
as a Roman ideal or a corporate practicality, experience is usually
mandatory.

Respectfully,

in pace Iouis, uale.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "marcushoratius" <mhoratius@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Consul Ti.Galeri
>
> Age limitations were not instituted at all before 180 BCE, and the
> particular ones you pointed to are even later. Marcus Valerius Corvus
> was 23 years old when elected Consul for the first time.
>
> There was no prerequites for a candidate to have held one office prior
> to seeking another under the Respublica Libera. You're proposal is not
> historical. That makes the very idea of there having been a cursus
> honorum into a myth.
>
> In Nova Roma's past people have proposed excluding one group of
> Citizens or another from office because of age or because of their sex
> or their religious beliefs or language, or whatever. Time and again
> your proposal comes up, too. We do not need to set limitations on who
> is willing to participate in Nova Roma's affairs.
>
> Vale
> Piscinus
>

Complutensis Aureliane SPD

Instead I tried to be present throughout this imbroglio.

I explained my reasons in other messages and I do not think that I must repeat these reasons , but if this is an attempt to provoke a discussion between tribunes I must remind you that the ML is not the right place to do it.

If on the other hand your message in the ML is an attempt to undermine my reputation as a Tribune I do not wish to answer you.

Vale

MARCVS CVRIATIVS COMPLVTENSIS
TRIBVNVS PLEBIS
NOVA ROMA

Ex paucis multa, ex minimis maxima


----- Mensaje original -----
De: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...
Para: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: lunes, 12 de noviembre de 2007 2:47
Asunto: Re: [Nova-Roma] The Comitia Populi Tributa is called


Complutensis Tribunus Plebis,

I have been away from my computer since Friday and just got back from my
granddaughter's birthday party. I cannot understand how you can support this
unconstitutional act of voiding the current election.

Fl. Galerius Aurelianus

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lentulus Cordo suo sal.

>>> And I'm also trying to follow the advice of that great Roman philosopher Mohandas Ghandi (!), "be the change you want to see". <<<

I think you could give us a good and interesting explanation regarding this statement :-)


Vale!
(p.s.: I have some idea why did you say that, however. But I am still curious of your thoughts.)


---------------------------------

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Cn. Lentulus Ti. Paulino consuli suo optimo amplissimoque viro s. p.d.:

>>> In all the time I have been here it has been repeatedly said that Nova

Roma is based on the middle republican model. <<<


Presently Nova Roma is based is various different models. The structure of the Senate is early republican, the magistrates are between the early and middle republic, the provincial administration is a mixture of the early empire and the late republic etc. I think there is nothing wrong with mixtures, but they must look pretty and suit well.

>>> In fact our declaration states that “Nova Roma is an organization dedicated to the study and restoration of ancient Roman culture. From its legendary founding in 753 BCE to 330 CE”… So it would seem that we can use anything that makes us better from the age of the Kings to the last centuries or so of the age of Emperors. <<<

This is true in part. We can use a lot of things, but not anything. The "Romanitas" is our guide in this.

>>> This lex requires that you be here for one year, that you be at least

21 years of age <<<


It has been already required by another lex. We don't need to repeat it.

>>>> First Quaestor then either Aedilis Curulis, Tribunus

Plebis or Aedilis Plebis then Praetor then Consul and then Censor
Is that too much to ask? <<<<


I think, yes, it's too much for such a village like NR. In the 400s years BC when Rome was thousand times bigger than we are now there was no requirement at all, and Rome occupied Latium, Etruria, Magna Graecia and finally Italy and had the best organization of state in the ancient world. Still without established cursus honorum.

The regulation was first established by lex in the 2th century BC. Of course, this was based on an existing tradition, but anyone could differ from it.

I think, if we need regulation on cursus honorum, it must be

1) requirement of holding one of the a central magistacies (vigintisexvir, quaestor, tribunus, aedilis) before governorship consulship and praetorship.
2) requirement of holding consulship or praetorship before the censorship.

But the second is not so important.

The most important is to mandate potential governors to serve one year as a central magistrate. It's extremely important in my view: being involved in the central affairs, demonstrate loyality to NR before giving so much power. Provincial governors are alomst KINGS in their provinces!!!! A provincial governor currently has more power in his province than any other magistrate in the whole republic. You have to consider this, if you write a lex about the cursus honorum.



Cura, ut valeas!


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C. Aemilius Crassus Consuli Ti. Galerio Paulino omnibusque SPD,

If I may add my two cents to this discussion and as much I do agree with your statement bellow:

"One of the reasons that sequential voting doesn’t work in the Comitia
Centuriata
is that YOU the voters

ARE NOT PAYING ATTENTION TO WHEN YOU SHOULD CAST
YOUR BALLOT. PLEASE TAKE FIVE MINTUES TO DETERMINE
YOUR CENTURY AND VOTE AT THE RIGHT TIME."

I would like to point some things to it:
1- It is almost impossible to know how much Centuries there are currently in NR. The only place I could found was at:

http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Comitia_centuriata_%28Nova_Roma%29

But that page was still mentioning only 51 Centuries till the beginning of the previous elections.
The way I have found that there was 59 Centuries was by going thourgh the Centuries pages in the Album Civium till I have reached an empty Century. And I have just found that we are back to the 51 Centuries!
2- After that we would have to found the Lex Octavia Altera de Comitiis Centuriatis:

http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Lex_Octavia_altera_de_comitiis_centuriatis_%28Nova_Roma%29

and do the calculations.

Of course in my case it was obvious that I am in the 5th Class, but for people of the second and first class it maybe a little confusing (and how should they round the calculations result to an Integer, since it isn’t stated in the above law).
Maybe it would help if the Censores issue an Edictum stating how many Centuries there are and which Centuries belong to each Class every time the Comitia Centuriata is called.
Just my two cents.

Di vos incolumes cunstodiant.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
C. AEMILIVS CRASSVS
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Cn. Lentulus Q. Poplicolae sal.

>>> the leges corneliae proves that the cursus honorum is not a myth. <<<

Indeed: the cursus honorum was not a myth, but just the Leges Corneliae prove that there was not an officially regulated, legally prescribed cursus honorum partly before Sulla and partly before the 2nd century BC.

>>>> Just because sometimes there were exceptions doesn't mean that there wasn't a rule. <<<<

There wasn't a rule before the 2nd century BC. There was a tradition. But there wasn't a rule with legally binding force.


Cura, ut valeas!




Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus,
R O G A T O R
------------------------------------------
Legatus Pro Praetore Provinciae Pannoniae
Sacerdos Provinciae Pannoniae
Accensus Consulis Ti. Galerii Paulini
Scriba Praetricis A. Tulliae Scholasticae
Scriba Aedilis Curulis Iuliae Caesaris Cytheridis Aeges
Scriba Interpretis Linguae Latinae A. Tulliae Scholasticae
-------------------------------------------
Decurio I. Sodalitatis Latinitatis
Dominus Factionis Russatae
Latinista, Classicus Philologus


---------------------------------

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Cn. Lentulus C. Iulio Scauro sal.

>>> Sequential voting preserves an important religious tradition in which

the centuria praerogativa represents an opporunity for the Di
Immortales to express their electoral preferences. We get so little
right in NR; let's not repudiate what we manage to get right. <<<


I agree with C. Iulius. The sequential voting is a precious part of our reconstructed Roman Republic. It reperesents how accurate we are in reviving the Roman Republic. Besides that, it gives some respect to the first class citizens and to every assiduus citizen who do deserve this. They pay taxes and have century points, signs of their contribution to the republic.


VALE!



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Cn. Lentulus Ti. Paulino consuli Quiritibusque salutem:


Sequential voting is one of the Nova Roman things which demonstrates our faith and fidelity to our ancestors. It's not very difficult: there are 3 sequences:

1) The centuria praerogativa votes - day 1-2.
2) The First Class votes (the praerogativa is still able to vote) - day 3-4-5.
3) Everybody votes (the praerogativa and the First Class is still able to vote) - day 6-7-8-9.


The solution for avoiding misunderstanding when one can vote would be to use a tool in the NR website which sends an automated e-mail to every citizen when he can start vote, and not to open the cista just for those who are currently entitled to vote.

Perhaps the time periods of the 3 sequences could be modified, allowing more time to vote for the 2nd and 3rd sequence.

Valete!



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Title:		Election Information
Date:		Tuesday November 13, 2007
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Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus Gnaeo Cornelio Lentulo salutem dicit

And who will write this tool? Part of the problem we have now is
technical. We do not have enough technical support for the
database!!! We have legislated ourselves OUT of our technical means.
Before complex laws are added that need technical support the
technical support people we have (or HAD!) should be consulted to make
sure it is possible and able to be created in a reasonable time. It
takes a lot of time and effort to create database tools and programs
and a lot of time to maintain them.

Vale:

Caeso Buteo

On Nov 12, 2007 7:06 AM, Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus
<cn_corn_lent@...> wrote:

>
> Cn. Lentulus Ti. Paulino consuli Quiritibusque salutem:
>
>
> Sequential voting is one of the Nova Roman things which demonstrates our
> faith and fidelity to our ancestors. It's not very difficult: there are 3
> sequences:
>
> 1) The centuria praerogativa votes - day 1-2.
> 2) The First Class votes (the praerogativa is still able to vote) - day
> 3-4-5.
> 3) Everybody votes (the praerogativa and the First Class is still able to
> vote) - day 6-7-8-9.
>
>
> The solution for avoiding misunderstanding when one can vote would be to
> use a tool in the NR website which sends an automated e-mail to every
> citizen when he can start vote, and not to open the cista just for those who
> are currently entitled to vote.
>
> Perhaps the time periods of the 3 sequences could be modified, allowing
> more time to vote for the 2nd and 3rd sequence.
>
> Valete!

A. Apollonius M. Hortensiae sal.

Rogavisti:

> But now there was a prodigy today..do we only regard them if in
> Rome?

M. Moravius has given you a very full response to this, demonstrating quite clearly that a prodigy need not happen in Rome in order to be significant. But I fear that he may inadvertently have given you the impression that *any* prodigy can be recognized as a sign carrying significance for the res publica.

This is covered very comprehensively by Susanne Rasmussen's 'Public Portents In Republican Rome' (Analecta Romana Instituti Danici Supplementum XXXIV, 2003). In short, as with auspices, there were prodigia publica and prodigia privata. Only prodigia publica were signs aimed at the community (res publica) as a whole, and only they required expiation by the community collectively.

Whether a prodigium was public or private was determined by the senate. The procedure for making that determination was this:

Anyone who observed an unusual event, or heard of one, could report it to a magistrate, usually a consul. The consul would then present the report to the senate, probably often after making some further investigations. Sometimes the consul would call eye-witnesses before the senate to describe what happened. Sometimes such a report would be submitted in writing, if the consul were away from Rome.

The senate had first to decide whether to recognize the event as a prodigium at all. It might decide that the event was simply not sufficiently extraordinary or inexplicable to be a prodigium, or (more commonly) it might feel that there was simply not enough reliable evidence to be sure that the event had occurred at all. If the senate did not accept the prodigium, then that was the end of the story.

If it recognized the prodigium, it had then to decide whether it was public or private. A prodigium publicum generally had to occur on Roman land (ager Romanus). Indeed Livy 43.13.6 implies that this was a firm rule. There are, however, some events which are known to have been certified as prodigia publica despite occurring on types of public land other than ager Romanus and even on private land. This is discussed in detail by Rasmussen on pp.219-237. We can say generally that prodigia publica had to pertain in some way to the res publica, for example because they occurred on ager Romanus or affected public buildings or holders of public office. Rasmussen collects every known example in a table which runs from p.53 to p.116; I have a photocopy of this table if you want to know about any specific prodigia.

If the senate certified the event as a prodigium privatum, then it was of no further interest to the organs of the state and it was up to the affected private individuals to perform whatever expiation they thought best (though they could of course consult experts for advice). If, however, it was accepted as a prodigium publicum, the responsibility to expiate it fell upon the state. The senate would then decide the appropriate expiation. It would often do this after consulting the relevant experts, such as the haruspices, the augures, or the Xviri sacris faciundis, though it could do it without any consultation. (Rasmussen notes, however, that if the senate did seek such external advice it always, as far as we know, followed the advice it received. Sometimes the advice itself was published by the senate.) The expiation would be recommended to the relevant magistrates, usually the consules, in a senatus consultum, which would also contain provisions
authorizing any necessary expenditure from the treasury. The consules (or other magistrates advised in the senatus consultum) were then responsible for carrying out the expiation.

Prodigia publica took very high priority. If the senate advised the consules to expiate a prodigy, this could often delay the consules' planned date of departure for campaigns abroad. Reports of prodigia automatically came above matters of war and peace on the agenda of any meeting of the senate (Livy, 24.11.1; Gellius, 14.7.9), and once the senate had heard a report of a possible prodigy it had to deal with it before any other business (with rare exceptions). In times when several reports were coming in every day this could obviously tie up the senate for weeks, and at such times the senate might refuse to even hear any reports until it had dealt with other urgent business (e.g. Livy, 34.55.4). Expiation of prodigia publica might not, however, have to be immediate. If the prodigia were relatively minor, it was common practice to collect them up and perform all the outstanding expiations together at the beginning of the following year.



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Lentulus ces. K. Buteoni Minori sal.:


In my view we sould have professional webmasters (2-3) paid from the NR treasury. This work is so complex that the NR state must pay salary to such a hardworking officer. I think in NR there are many people with a technical knowledge.

The salary, however, shouldn't by a high amount. For example, 25-50 dollars per month.


Vale!




"David Kling (Modianus)" <tau.athanasios@...> ha scritto:
Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus Gnaeo Cornelio Lentulo salutem dicit

And who will write this tool? Part of the problem we have now is
technical. We do not have enough technical support for the
database!!! We have legislated ourselves OUT of our technical means.
Before complex laws are added that need technical support the
technical support people we have (or HAD!) should be consulted to make
sure it is possible and able to be created in a reasonable time. It
takes a lot of time and effort to create database tools and programs
and a lot of time to maintain them.

Vale:

Caeso Buteo

On Nov 12, 2007 7:06 AM, Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus
<cn_corn_lent@...> wrote:

>
> Cn. Lentulus Ti. Paulino consuli Quiritibusque salutem:
>
>
> Sequential voting is one of the Nova Roman things which demonstrates our
> faith and fidelity to our ancestors. It's not very difficult: there are 3
> sequences:
>
> 1) The centuria praerogativa votes - day 1-2.
> 2) The First Class votes (the praerogativa is still able to vote) - day
> 3-4-5.
> 3) Everybody votes (the praerogativa and the First Class is still able to
> vote) - day 6-7-8-9.
>
>
> The solution for avoiding misunderstanding when one can vote would be to
> use a tool in the NR website which sends an automated e-mail to every
> citizen when he can start vote, and not to open the cista just for those who
> are currently entitled to vote.
>
> Perhaps the time periods of the 3 sequences could be modified, allowing
> more time to vote for the 2nd and 3rd sequence.
>
> Valete!

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Salvete!

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "David Kling (Modianus)"
<tau.athanasios@...> wrote:

>
> Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus Gnaeo Cornelio Lentulo salutem dicit
>
> And who will write this tool? Part of the problem we have now is
> technical. We do not have enough technical support for the
> database!!!

We do, it's simply a matter of justifying the time. Personally,
this is exactly the kind of work I do for a living. I have more
than 20 years of experience in this field, and the trick is
justifying the project. It is not a trivial, but because it is
behind the scenes, people have the impression that the "techies" can
simply do it, because it's what "tech people" do. There is an
expectation of instant gratification. Rome wasn't built in a day,
and neither would any new feature going forward, in my opinon,
although there are many seeking to take short-cuts, and implement
rogue reforms; all this in the name of "helping" the citizenry.

> We have legislated ourselves OUT of our technical means.

That's a fair assessment.

> Before complex laws are added that need technical support the
> technical support people we have (or HAD!) should be consulted to
> make sure it is possible and able to be created in a reasonable
> time. It takes a lot of time and effort to create database tools
> and programs and a lot of time to maintain them.

Absolutely. I applaud your understanding of the technical
challenges we face on a daily basis. There are many who are still
learning them, and over time I think we will be better equipped to
set expectations accordingly.

We have the technical support and expertise to create such a tool;
and not by means of outsourcing to third-party systems, whose access
is funneled through a single individual and their whim, but rather
by a group of individuals with shared access, who are ready to keep
the doors open to the technical sanctum to any and all who take up
the mantle of support.

However, whether anyone would want to devote themselves to
devlopment rather than mere maintenance would most likely be based
on the perception of the technical staff on how they would be
treated by those they serve.

Salvete,
Q. Valerius Callidus

A. Apollonius omnibus sal.

>>> ATS: Presumably that is how we grow in our Romanitas. Others,

however,

>>> have been sternly rebuked for far less adventurous leaps up the

ladder we

>>> call the cursus honorum. Where is Cordus when we need him?

Here I am.

Yes, we have a lot of people skipping gaily all over the cursus this year, and I was going to say something about it when the polls opened, but my internet access has been a bit erratic this week and I missed the boat. But now that A. Tullia has mentioned it, I'll talk about it now.

In the past, around this time of year, I have made comments about which candidates I support and which I don't. In deciding which candidates to support, one important factor has always been whether the candidate in question is following the traditional cursus or not. I hoped that making this factor prominent would have an impact on future candidates and would encourage people to stand only for those offices for which they would have been regarded as qualified in the old republic.

It has plainly not had any such effect. Indeed, disregard of the cursus has got worse and worse over the last few years. I don't know why people stand for offices when they shouldn't. In some cases perhaps it is blind ambition. In some cases I suspect they are coaxed or even bullied into it by political allies who are afraid of letting their opponents stand unopposed. I need hardly bother to say that these are not good reasons.

In other cases I am sure there is a genuine feeling that the higher magistracies must be filled, and that if there are not enough qualified candidates then it is necessary for the good of the republic for unqualified people to stand. I recognize that people who hold this view do so in good faith and truly want the best for Nova Roma. But they are wrong. The ultimate objective of every political decision in Nova Roma should be to promote Romanitas. Any decision which encourages un-Roman behaviour is ultimately harmful to Nova Roma in the long run. Romanitas is more important than filling magistracies.

Any group can have elected executive officers. Any group can call its executive officers consules, praetores, and so on. Having the right number of consules, praetores, and other Roman-style magistrates does not make a community Roman. No community will ever be Roman unless its members behave like Romans. But a community can be Roman without consules, praetores, and so on. All a community needs in order to be Roman is for its members to behave like Romans. If they do that, then their community will be Roman, even with no magistrates at all.

Some may say that mine is a counsel of perfection. I have two replies to that. First, we are in a sorry state if we regard as "perfection" something which the Romans regarded as a bare minimum. Secondly, even if it is a counsel of perfection, I make no apology for that. Somebody has to counsel perfection, or else nobody will ever aspire to it.

But let me get back to what I wanted to say. I have tried to encourage people not to stand for offices for which they are not qualified according to Roman tradition. I have tried to encourage people not to vote for them if they do. It hasn't worked. I fear that one reason it has not worked is that I have often let people off in the end, saying, "okay, you haven't followed the cursus, but since there are no other candidates, I'll support you anyway". So you will hear no more of that from me.

This year, and for the foreseeable future, I shall not support any candidate for office who is running for election while currently in office. I shall not support any candidate who is running for election to an office without having previously held whatever previous offices he or she would ordinarily have been expected to hold in the old republic in order to qualify for that office. I shall not vote for these people. I shall call upon other voters not to vote for them. I shall make no exceptions. If I find that I have inadvertently made an exception, I shall correct it.

It is therefore with considerable disappoint that I find I am unable to support even a single candidate for any of the curule magistracies or for the magistracies of the plebs.

I am pleased, however, to be able to cast my vote for L. Vitellius Triarius, T. Arminius Genialis, Q. Fabius Maximus, L. Salix Cicero, and Ti. Cornelius Scipio for the quaestura; L. Rutilius Minervalis for the rogatura; M. Martianius Lupus, C. Aemilius Crassus, Sex. Postumius Albus, and C. Julius Adventor for the diribitura; and Step. Ullerius Venator for the custoditas. I wish them all success, and I hope that they will continue to observe the traditional cursus and the traditional intervals between offices as they advance in their careers.

And, like lieutenant Columbo, I want to say one more thing. One or two of you may be thinking, "well, Cordus is not currently holding any office and has been quaestor, so why is he not running for aedilis, tribunus, or any lesser office?" Here is the answer. Last year I criticized A. Tullia for standing for the praetura when she had not been quaestrix, aedilis, or tribuna. She said that I was being inconsistent because I myself had been quaestor when I was under 30, which in the ancient republic was the minimum age for that office.

I am still uncertain in my own mind whether the minimum age of 30 is one which should be observed in Nova Roma. There are sensible arguments against it, principally that it was at least partly meant to allow time for ten years' military service, something which we lack in Nova Roma. But on the other hand there is the argument, which I have often made myself on other points, that we should always do what the Romans did unless there is some very compelling reason not to. Is there a very compelling reason to change the minimum ages observed in the old republic? I'm not sure. It's something I need to think further about.

But I will not tolerate the suggestion that I am inconsistent or a hypocrite. If I can be accused of hypocrisy then it gives people carte blanche to ignore what I have to say. And my own political career is less important to me than that I should be able to speak and have what I say taken seriously. I cannot do that as long as there is even a suggestion that I do not practice what I preach. So, like Caesar's wife, I must be above reproach.

So although I do not hold this year's candidates to so high a standard, I do hold myself to it. I shall not hold any elected magistracy until the age at which I could have held it in the old republic. Do not expect to see me in office until at least 2012.



___________________________________________________________
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SALVE ET SALVETE!

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus
<cn_corn_lent@...> wrote:

> The solution for avoiding misunderstanding when one can vote would

be to use a tool in the NR website which sends an automated e-mail to
every citizen when he can start vote, and not to open the cista just
for those who are currently entitled to vote>>>

Unfortunately, this will not work because two reasons:
- it is very difficult to create these tools, sometime impossible.
- even if tools are created, my last experience dealing with
provincial census job and NR list moderation, show me that people
usually change their e-mail addresses and they don't announce in
proper time about that.

VALETE,
IVL SABINVS

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus Q. Valerio Callido salutem dicit

I understand fully the technical situation as censor, and that is why
I am so concerned! I think the technical support people are not
nearly as appreciated as they should be! I have seen mechanically
inept magistrates criticize the website because it is now different
and actually requires magistrates to get their heads out of their
assess and learn how to make updates. I have seen contempt issued
towards the work done on the new website -- by people who have
absolutely no clue as to what they are talking about! The website,
and the infrastructure behind it needs a lot of support. Respect
needs to be afforded to the technical folks who do a great deal of
work and are often taken for granted!

We keep legislating and legislating but what we need to start doing is
making our systems more simpler. The ancient Romans had sequential
voting, but they didn't have the Internet and they didn't have e-mail
through voting. It is absurd to think we shouldn't work within our
means and within the on-line culture in which much of our work is
accomplished.

Vale:

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus

On Nov 12, 2007 7:36 AM, os390account <Velaki@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete!
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "David Kling (Modianus)"
>
> <tau.athanasios@...> wrote:
> >
> > Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus Gnaeo Cornelio Lentulo salutem dicit
> >
> > And who will write this tool? Part of the problem we have now is
> > technical. We do not have enough technical support for the
> > database!!!
>
> We do, it's simply a matter of justifying the time. Personally,
> this is exactly the kind of work I do for a living. I have more
> than 20 years of experience in this field, and the trick is
> justifying the project. It is not a trivial, but because it is
> behind the scenes, people have the impression that the "techies" can
> simply do it, because it's what "tech people" do. There is an
> expectation of instant gratification. Rome wasn't built in a day,
> and neither would any new feature going forward, in my opinon,
> although there are many seeking to take short-cuts, and implement
> rogue reforms; all this in the name of "helping" the citizenry.
>
>
> > We have legislated ourselves OUT of our technical means.
>
> That's a fair assessment.
>
>
> > Before complex laws are added that need technical support the
> > technical support people we have (or HAD!) should be consulted to
> > make sure it is possible and able to be created in a reasonable
> > time. It takes a lot of time and effort to create database tools
> > and programs and a lot of time to maintain them.
>
> Absolutely. I applaud your understanding of the technical
> challenges we face on a daily basis. There are many who are still
> learning them, and over time I think we will be better equipped to
> set expectations accordingly.
>
> We have the technical support and expertise to create such a tool;
> and not by means of outsourcing to third-party systems, whose access
> is funneled through a single individual and their whim, but rather
> by a group of individuals with shared access, who are ready to keep
> the doors open to the technical sanctum to any and all who take up
> the mantle of support.
>
> However, whether anyone would want to devote themselves to
> devlopment rather than mere maintenance would most likely be based
> on the perception of the technical staff on how they would be
> treated by those they serve.
>
> Salvete,
> Q. Valerius Callidus
>
>
>

A. Apollonius omnibus sal.

Since writing my last message I see that my friend Cn. Lentulus is now offering himself as a candidate for the quaestura. Like everyone else around here, I am pretty confused about how and when, if ever, we shall find ourselves voting for the non-plebejan magistracies, and about who will be on the ballot if we do; but if I find Cn. Lentulus on the ballot for quaestor, I shall be very pleased to vote for him!



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A. Apollonius omnibus sal.

I just want to let you know that my access to the internet is a bit volatile at the moment. If you are expecting a message from me which seems a long time coming, this may well be the reason. I shall do my best to answer everything while my connexion is, for the time being, working.




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Lentulus Cordo suo amico sal.

You shall not vote for me, Corde optime, because of your statement you have written in your previous letter. You will not vote for those who are currently holding any office. I am presently rogator.

I'm sorry for it. :-(



"A. Apollonius Cordus" <a_apollonius_cordus@...> ha scritto:
A. Apollonius omnibus sal.

Since writing my last message I see that my friend Cn. Lentulus is now offering himself as a candidate for the quaestura. Like everyone else around here, I am pretty confused about how and when, if ever, we shall find ourselves voting for the non-plebejan magistracies, and about who will be on the ballot if we do; but if I find Cn. Lentulus on the ballot for quaestor, I shall be very pleased to vote for him!

__________________________________________________________
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L. Livia Plauta omnibus S.P.D.

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus scripsit:

>
> We keep legislating and legislating but what we need to start doing

is

> making our systems more simpler. The ancient Romans had sequential
> voting, but they didn't have the Internet and they didn't have e-

mail

> through voting. It is absurd to think we shouldn't work within our
> means and within the on-line culture in which much of our work is
> accomplished.

The voice of reason! I think one of the most roman virtues was
practicality.
A voting order was needed in Roma Antiqua because people had to
physically line up and go to the cista.
With modern technologies such as the internet this makes no longer
sense.
The practice of keeping outdated and unpractical laws and customs
just because they are "the ways of our ancestors" is usually dubbed
(rightly or wrongly) as "byzantine", a terms which evokes needless
complication, mindless bureaucracy and such. Are we sure that's the
period of roman history we want to emulate most?

Optime valete.
L. Livia Plauta

Salve Scaure,

We've tried it for four years now. The voters have never gotten it
right. I'm certain that more people have cast invalid votes during
the time set aside for the centuria praerogativa than valid votes in
every year that we've done this.

We've given it a fair run. It doesn't work.

Vale,

-- Marinus

Gregory Rose <gregory.rose@...> writes:

> Scaurus Quiritibus SPD.
>
> Sequential voting preserves an important religious tradition in which
> the centuria praerogativa represents an opporunity for the Di
> Immortales to express their electoral preferences. We get so little
> right in NR; let's not repudiate what we manage to get right.
>
> Valete.
>
> Scaurus
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

CN-EQVIT-MARINVS

Salve C. Aemilius Crassus

Thanks for taking part in the discussion.
Each and every voter should go to the AC and look up their
own profile. Their Century assignment is listed and they
can click on it to see who else is listed.

Vale

Ti. Galerius Paulinus

>From: Gaius Aemilius Crassus <septemtrionis@...>
>Reply-To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Moving on with the elections
>Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 03:06:30 -0800 (PST)
>
>C. Aemilius Crassus Consuli Ti. Galerio Paulino omnibusque SPD,
>
>If I may add my two cents to this discussion and as much I do agree with
>your statement bellow:
>
>"One of the reasons that sequential voting doesn���t work in the Comitia
>Centuriata
>is that YOU the voters
>
>ARE NOT PAYING ATTENTION TO WHEN YOU SHOULD CAST
>YOUR BALLOT. PLEASE TAKE FIVE MINTUES TO DETERMINE
>YOUR CENTURY AND VOTE AT THE RIGHT TIME."
>
>I would like to point some things to it:
>1- It is almost impossible to know how much Centuries there are currently
>in NR. The only place I could found was at:
>
>http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Comitia_centuriata_%28Nova_Roma%29
>
>But that page was still mentioning only 51 Centuries till the beginning of
>the previous elections.
>The way I have found that there was 59 Centuries was by going thourgh the
>Centuries pages in the Album Civium till I have reached an empty Century.
>And I have just found that we are back to the 51 Centuries!
>2- After that we would have to found the Lex Octavia Altera de Comitiis
>Centuriatis:
>
>http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Lex_Octavia_altera_de_comitiis_centuriatis_%28Nova_Roma%29
>
>and do the calculations.
>
>Of course in my case it was obvious that I am in the 5th Class, but for
>people of the second and first class it maybe a little confusing (and how
>should they round the calculations result to an Integer, since it isn���t
>stated in the above law).
>Maybe it would help if the Censores issue an Edictum stating how many
>Centuries there are and which Centuries belong to each Class every time the
>Comitia Centuriata is called.
>Just my two cents.
>
>Di vos incolumes cunstodiant.
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>C. AEMILIVS CRASSVS
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>http://mail.yahoo.com

Lentulus Cordo suo sal.


I'm afraid, Corde carissime mi, that you overdraw some aspects of Romanitas here. I would like to dissuade you to make such exaggerations.

>>>> She said that I was being inconsistent because I myself had been quaestor when I was under 30, which in the ancient republic was the minimum age for that office. <<<<

It was the minimum age, but when? And why? That's not all the same. before the lex Villia annalis there wasn't such regulation. Or do you think that those before 180 BC were't true Romans? Or those after 27 BC, weren't: because the age limit for quaetura was twenty-five? I think that age limits for quaestura had and have nothing to do with Romanitas and republic.

>>>> I am still uncertain in my own mind whether the minimum age of 30 is one which should be observed in Nova Roma. <<<<

It should not. Take it for sure.

>>> There are sensible arguments against it, principally that it was at least partly meant to allow time for ten years' military service, something which we lack in Nova Roma. <<<

In fact, we don't entirely lack it. I am a centurio in a reenactor legion. I consider this as my "cultural and educational"military service for Nova Roma.

>>> we should always do what the Romans did unless there is some very compelling reason not to. <<<

Romans were and are in the first place humans. They did what they wanted. They did really silly things and did magnificent ones, too. The nature of the Roman people changed from time to time, but there was a little but essential element of theri nature which remained the same from 500 BC to 400 CE. That we call Romanitas. I think it consists of elements of Roman self-awareness like Roman identity, faith, prowess, pridefullness, patriotism, conservativism and pragmatism; and not the age of the quaestores.

>>> But I will not tolerate the suggestion that I am inconsistent or a hypocrite.<<<

Who know you know that you aren't.

>>> I shall not hold any elected magistracy until the age at which I could have held it in the old republic. Do not expect to see me in office until at least 2012. <<<

Do it, if you want, but be aware that what you do is a silly thing and you deprive the republic of your excellent attainments and capacities which it would need, and you do harm to the cause of modern Romanity instead of promoting it.


Cura, ut valeas!


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Cn. Lentulus Liviae Plautae tribunae plebis candidatae sal.

>>> I think one of the most roman virtues was practicality. <<<

Indeed it was.

>>> A voting order was needed in Roma Antiqua because people had to

physically line up and go to the cista. <<<


That's simply not true. The voting order was needed because the Roman aristocracy was so practical that they took up even the chance of voting from the lower classes if the votes of the first classe who voted firtly had the majority. Then, the other reason was that the Romans were so much practical that they know how to apply psychology for election and how to influence the voters with the centuria praerogativa and sequential voting. When the people saw the results of the first centuries, they decided to vote for those candidates who had the support of the previous centuries. This is the human natura. Everybody wants to vote for the winners.


Sequential voting in that simplified form how it exists now it's a good thing.



Vale!





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"...took up even the chance of voting from the lower classes..."

Sorry, I wanted to say: "took away"

CN. LENT.

Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus <cn_corn_lent@...> ha scritto:
Cn. Lentulus Liviae Plautae tribunae plebis candidatae sal.

>>> I think one of the most roman virtues was practicality. <<<

Indeed it was.

>>> A voting order was needed in Roma Antiqua because people had to

physically line up and go to the cista. <<<


That's simply not true. The voting order was needed because the Roman aristocracy was so practical that they took up even the chance of voting from the lower classes if the votes of the first classe who voted firtly had the majority. Then, the other reason was that the Romans were so much practical that they know how to apply psychology for election and how to influence the voters with the centuria praerogativa and sequential voting. When the people saw the results of the first centuries, they decided to vote for those candidates who had the support of the previous centuries. This is the human natura. Everybody wants to vote for the winners.


Sequential voting in that simplified form how it exists now it's a good thing.



Vale!




---------------------------------

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---------------------------------

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Salve, Gn. Marine, vir fortissime!

>>> The voters have never gotten it right. I'm certain that more people have cast invalid votes during the time set aside for the centuria praerogativa than valid votes in every year that we've done this. <<<

It would be so simple... In fact just we need a technical stuff. Be the cista open only for those who are corrently entitled to vote. If somebody who is not entitled to vote tries to vote then he will see such a statement on the cista like "Sorry, your century is not currenly called to vote. Please return on 12th November".


If we will honour our technical officers, I think we will find people who can do such settings on the NR website.


Vale!
Lentulus


Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@...> ha scritto:
Salve Scaure,

We've tried it for four years now. The voters have never gotten it
right. I'm certain that more people have cast invalid votes during
the time set aside for the centuria praerogativa than valid votes in
every year that we've done this.

We've given it a fair run. It doesn't work.

Vale,

-- Marinus

Gregory Rose <gregory.rose@...> writes:

> Scaurus Quiritibus SPD.
>
> Sequential voting preserves an important religious tradition in which
> the centuria praerogativa represents an opporunity for the Di
> Immortales to express their electoral preferences. We get so little
> right in NR; let's not repudiate what we manage to get right.
>
> Valete.
>
> Scaurus
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

CN-EQVIT-MARINVS





---------------------------------

---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Aurelianus Lentulo sal.

With all due respect, it is the duty of each adult in Nova Roma to have
enough sense to know what tribe and century to which they belong and know when to
cast their ballot in the cista. If the majority of members are unhappy with
the present voting system, then they need to petition the Consuls or
Tribunes to create a new system overriding the old system.

Vale.



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lentulus Aureliano sal.

>>> If the majority of members are unhappy with

the present voting system, then they need to petition the Consuls or
Tribunes to create a new system overriding the old system. <<<


This is what I don't want. Therefore I write today these letters.

Vale!

Cn. Lentulus



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avete omnes,

a list with the choices is quite ready. This is just to remind you
that almost all the period for sending your bids is over (15 November
is the last day). Please, take a little time to send your bids for the
Seven Wonders of the Roman world to

sette.meraviglie@...

Then remember that your bids should be chosen according to what still
remains from the ancient Roman constructions, the monuments being in
Rome or in any other country of Europe, Africa and Asia which were
under the Roman rule.


For any information and clarification please contact info@...
or info@...

thanks

l'Associazione Pomerium

C. Aemilius Crassus Consuli Ti. Galerio Paulino omnibusque SPD,

My point was that to know in which Century we are is very easy, but to know in which Class our century it is needs some hard work researching the NR site. So when the Comitia Centuriata is called to vote I guess most people get confused when should they vote.

An even better way then my suggestion in my previous message it would be in the page of the Comitia Centuriata placing the list (considering a total of 51 Centuries):

Centuries 1 to 15: Class I
Centuries 16 to 27: Class II
Centuries 28 to 37: Class III
Centuries 38 to 45: Class IV
Centuries 46 to 51: Class V with one Century for Capite Censi (the 51th).

Di vos incolumes custodiante.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
C. AEMILIVS CRASSVS
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


----- Original Message ----
From: Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 1:54:12 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Your Century

Salve C. Aemilius Crassus

Thanks for taking part in the discussion.
Each and every voter should go to the AC and look up their
own profile. Their Century assignment is listed and they
can click on it to see who else is listed.

Vale

Ti. Galerius Paulinus

>From: Gaius Aemilius Crassus <septemtrionis@...>
>Reply-To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Moving on with the elections
>Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 03:06:30 -0800 (PST)
>
>C. Aemilius Crassus Consuli Ti. Galerio Paulino omnibusque SPD,
>
>If I may add my two cents to this discussion and as much I do agree with
>your statement bellow:
>
>"One of the reasons that sequential voting doesn’t work in the Comitia
>Centuriata
>is that YOU the voters
>
>ARE NOT PAYING ATTENTION TO WHEN YOU SHOULD CAST
>YOUR BALLOT. PLEASE TAKE FIVE MINTUES TO DETERMINE
>YOUR CENTURY AND VOTE AT THE RIGHT TIME."
>
>I would like to point some things to it:
>1- It is almost impossible to know how much Centuries there are currently
>in NR. The only place I could found was at:
>
>http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Comitia_centuriata_%28Nova_Roma%29
>
>But that page was still mentioning only 51 Centuries till the beginning of
>the previous elections.
>The way I have found that there was 59 Centuries was by going thourgh the
>Centuries pages in the Album Civium till I have reached an empty Century.
>And I have just found that we are back to the 51 Centuries!
>2- After that we would have to found the Lex Octavia Altera de Comitiis
>Centuriatis:
>
>http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Lex_Octavia_altera_de_comitiis_centuriatis_%28Nova_Roma%29
>
>and do the calculations.
>
>Of course in my case it was obvious that I am in the 5th Class, but for
>people of the second and first class it maybe a little confusing (and how
>should they round the calculations result to an Integer, since it isn’t
>stated in the above law).
>Maybe it would help if the Censores issue an Edictum stating how many
>Centuries there are and which Centuries belong to each Class every time the
>Comitia Centuriata is called.
>Just my two cents.
>
>Di vos incolumes cunstodiant.
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>C. AEMILIVS CRASSVS
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>http://mail.yahoo.com

Yahoo! Groups Links



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Scaurus Marino SPD.

I have never understood why it is so difficult for acitizen to look
up his century and tribe in the Album Civium immediately before an
election.

I think the basic problem is that most of our citizens are hobbyists
who are unwilling to devote even minimal time to understanding
religious traditions because they do not practice the cultus deorum
and it matters nothing to them. We even have religious leaders with
the modern attitude that religious tradition should be sacrificed on
the altar of expediency the moment that tradition becomes the least
bit inconvenient.

We are dealing with "recreating" Rome with a majority of people who
almost completely lack Roman values and attitudes, particularly on
religious matters, and are largely unmotivated to cultivate those
values and attitudes. We tried to finesse the problem by the
post-philosophical attitude of "orthopraxis matters and orthodoxy
doesn't," forgetting that that was true only for a small minority even
of the most highly educated elements of the elite. If the overwhelming
majority of Roman citizens had not believed and based their behaviour
on religious belief of a very specific sort, there never would have
been any pressure on non-bellieving elements in the elite to conform
to an orthopraxis.

The problem is that NR is a club of people who think Rome is cool, not
an organisation devoted to the cultivation of historical Roman
attitudes and behaviours. If we were the latter rather than the
former, sequential voting would not be a problem.

Vale.

Scaurus

---Po Minucia Scauro Pontifex Omnibus sal.


In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gregory Rose" <gregory.rose@...> wrote:

>

(...)

>
>
> The problem is that NR is a club of people who think Rome is cool, not
> an organisation devoted to the cultivation of historical Roman
> attitudes and behaviours. If we were the latter rather than the
> former, sequential voting would not be a problem.

Pompeia: I know you think this. But the sequential voting,
regardless of your dim view of the populace' piety or intelligence,
remains to cause confusion and more discarded votes that could
reasonably be deemed desirable.

What I'm reading, I think, is plain, old-fashioned religious
guilt-tripping (why I don't watch TV Sunday mornings).

And it's in itself rather red herring to any solution to the problem.

You can *assume* it's a republic-wide lack of piety, if you wish, but
what we *know* is that it's not enjoying the success hoped for. That
is a statement of fact, not an undermining of the Religio, which many
citizens practice, including I'm sure, some of the holders of the
votes we were forced to throw in the garbage due to: lack of
knowledge/education/they didn't know where to find their century or
class/they have lives outside NR, (like it or not) /language
barriers/timezones, etc. To date,it's not proving very user-friendly.
Period.

I do not routinely provide religious education for citizens of Nova
Roma regarding the religious significance of this or that...it would
seem rather silly when we have a Collegium Pontificium to manage this
on our behalf and with greater skill. Perhaps periodic Pontificial
education on these treasured elements throughout the year would be of
benefit, rather than a blurb or two of complaint during a contio,
lamenting why people, after four years, can't seem to get it straight.

Are citizens a bunch of impious dumb-dumbs? I *don't* think that's a
reasonable conclusion after four years of trying to make this system work.

THIS SAID (not yelling), I think the Consul may as well go through
with the sequential voting this year as per the Lex Fabia, as opposed
to just *pretending* to do it...that's tough to fake. Either we
allow non sequential votes to be validated, or we don't. I'm not sure
which of the two is the greater abomination...trying and failing, and
admitting we can't, or *pretending* and making the entire exercise
equally unlawful and with a very plastic religious significance.

>
> Vale.
>
> Scaurus

Valete

>

M Moravius Piscinus Q Valerio Puplicolae amico meo SPD:

I think that there are two considerations here, and thus the matter
revolves on how to best bring hem into harmony for Nova Roma.

The first consideration is Nova Roma's stated purpose that we should
exmplify the best that is to be found in the traditions of Roma
antiqua. That expressly does not include slavery, or imperialism
through military conquest, or a host of other things that may have
normal in ancient times. In its long history, the era you point to
where a cursus honorum was instituted was ushered in when the butcher
Sulla marched against the Senate and the people of Rome, usurped
power through military force and imposed his reign of terror through
thugs to oppress his own people. In doing so he set an example
whereby politics in Rome turned into a constant series of civil wars
between factions in an ever shrinking ruling class. The legacy of his
regime, a model for fascist regimes ever since, even in ancient Rome,
was one of brutality, violence, constant strife, and oppression.
Sulla, Caesar, and Commodus, Franco, Mussolini, and Hitler, Somoza,
Pinochet, Castillo Armas, Idi Amin, Saddam Hussein, and all such
sullatoriones in the end have only managed to destroy their own
societies. I really don't think I wish to have Sulla as a model for
Nova Roma.

The true political legacy that has endured from Rome, from the Roman
people, and from Roman civilization was not the fascist aspects of
their culture. IMHO the legacy of Roma antiqua instead lies with the
principles of law, the rule of law, respect for the law, and the
underlying principle that law is a compact between all people within
a society. These are the principles found in the Respublica Libera
of Roma antiqua. This is the legacy of Rome that forms the basis of
today's Western political culture. The rights of every citizen to
free speech and free assembly, redress of wrongs in a court of law,
the publication of laws and the equal application of law to every
citizen, were first won by Romans standing up for their rights. The
plebeians who assembled in peaceful protest during the secessio to
the Sacred Mount, individuals and Tribunes like Macer, the Gracchi,
Sicinius, and Volero Publius, who stood in public to voice their
dissent, offering themselves in self-sacrifice for the cause of
freedom, those are the true heroes of Rome who have inspired people
in Alabama, India, South Africa, Burma and everywhere. This is the
legacy of the Respublica Libera of Roma antiqua that endures and
inspires the World today.

Nova Roma is a civitas composed of all of its Citizens. I am aware
that not all here share my views that find inspiration in the Res
Publica Libera of the Middle Republic. We do have those who prefer
the views of Cicero, and others who think that dictators like Sulla
is the solution to every problem, and others still who find their
views inspired by the later Roman Empire, or by the Christian Empire
or even by Byzantium. There is always that need for Nova Roma to
define itself, and the need for all our Citizens to choose how to
define our civitas.


The second consideration is the one I brought up before and that you
repeated. "what's wrong with demanding experience before handling the
highest offices here? If we think of it in either as a Roman ideal or
a corporate practicality, experience is usually mandatory."

Holding a series of offices in succession does not necessarily
provided need experience to hold offices in Nova Roma. Conceivably
one can acquire better experience at running a not-for-profit
corporation outside of Nova Roma than by holding elective offices
inside Nova Roma. So why mandate that a person hold offices in
succession? Let each candidate present their experiences that they
think best qualify them for offices.

We have one contested race this year. It would not be a contested if
this proposal to mandate a cursus honorum was in force. Does that
serve Nova Roma's interests? Would it offer the voters a choice?
And we can look more deeply into this. The one candidate can claim
that he has held a succession of offices, none of which really dealt
with the duties that a censor would perform. Galerius went from
Quaestor, to Praetor, to Consul. Both were tribunes. Both have been
Propraetores. Hortensia has been an Aedilis Plebis, Galerius never an
Aedilis. Hortensia has twice served as a scriba censoralis; Galerius
has not served in the cohors of a censor.

What a list of titles does not tell the voters. As Praetor,
Galerius' first act was to pick a fight with his colleague by tossing
the scribae of T. Octavius Pius off the mainlist as moderators.
Galerius' stated excuse was to demonstrate his "dignitas and
severus." That he was a Praetor last year does not tell you how he
mishandled the tribunal of Scaevola. And this year, being Consul
does not tell you that when he had a colleague around they did little
but fight with one another. When Faustus wasn't around and Galerius
was free to act on his own initiatives, basically he didn't do much.
And now with the elections, problems arose that cannot be blamed on
Consul Galerius, but his handling of the situation has once again
been confused and disappointing. Not entirely his fault, but the
fact that he held offices does not tell people whether he was
effective in those offices.

As Tribuni Plebis, both Galerius and Hortensia had their
disagreements with their colleagues and with other magistrates. But
that is a very different sort of office, a part of the nature of
being Tribunus Plebis is to challenge other magistrates. Some may
hold it against her, but Hortensia was very good at laying out her
reasons when challenging others. So with Hortensia a voter has to
look at her record elsewhere. She was effective as an Aedilis
Plebis. She was effective in her duties as a scriba censoris to
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus in the Officia iuris et investigatio, while
I was in the same cohors as scriba censoris primus for the Officia
Census 2005. She has been effective in producing the Vox Romana
podcast. She is working effectively now in the cohors censoralis of
Caeso Fabius Modianus as scriba censoris primus in the Officia Census
2007.

For newer Citizens, new voters, it can be a bit confusing. Those of
us who have been here longer are aware of each other's records and we
do not openly express the reasons why we may oppose someone. You
will see magistrates and former magistrates offer their
recommendations on candidates. We won't all agree, but those
recommendations are based on our having worked with one candidate or
another. Often it is as scribae that we first meet future candidates.

If we then bring together these two considerations (1) which of the
better aspects of Roma antiqua to exemplify in Nova Roma, and (2)
what best serves the interests of Nova Roma on providing the best
qualified and most experienced candidates for offices, then I think
the answer is the one shown earlier, the one found in Livy where the
Senate expressed that the choice should be left open to the People to
decide on whomever they wished.

Vale optime

M Moravius Piscinus
Senator
Flamen Carmentalis
Candidatus Consulatus

---Po Minucia Lentulo Omnibus sal.


In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus
<cn_corn_lent@...> wrote:

>
> (,...)
>
>
>
>
>
> It would be so simple... In fact just we need a technical stuff.

Be the cista open only for those who are corrently entitled to vote.
If somebody who is not entitled to vote tries to vote then he will see
such a statement on the cista like "Sorry, your century is not
currenly called to vote. Please return on 12th November".

>
>
> If we will honour our technical officers, I think we will find

people who can do such settings on the NR website.

Pompeia: Excellent thinking Rogator! Thank you for taking the
initiative to suggest this. Could you collaborate with the technical
staff of Nova Roma to see if this could be done by them? After all,
you are Rogator, yes? :>) Is it doable in practice? Then you could
report to the Censors. This would greatly minimize the root problems
with the sequential voting scheme.

I doubt anything of this nature could be put together for this year,
but it is certainly worth investigating for future.

It would be interesting to know what the people think of this current
voting system after four years of trial and error, but if they can be
made aware of any technical supports in making it more user-friendly,
I think it would help citizens make an informed decision.

Contrary to what you might read, the objections to this system do not
stem from a harboured religious antagonism, but are due to its
practical implementation, or lack thereof.



Valete

>
>
> Vale!
> Lentulus
>
>
> Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@...> ha scritto:
> Salve Scaure,
>
> We've tried it for four years now. The voters have never gotten it
> right. I'm certain that more people have cast invalid votes during
> the time set aside for the centuria praerogativa than valid votes in
> every year that we've done this.
>
> We've given it a fair run. It doesn't work.
>
> Vale,
>
> -- Marinus
>
> Gregory Rose <gregory.rose@...> writes:
>
> > Scaurus Quiritibus SPD.
> >
> > Sequential voting preserves an important religious tradition in which
> > the centuria praerogativa represents an opporunity for the Di
> > Immortales to express their electoral preferences. We get so little
> > right in NR; let's not repudiate what we manage to get right.
> >
> > Valete.
> >
> > Scaurus
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> CN-EQVIT-MARINVS
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
> ---------------------------------
> L'email della prossima generazione? Puoi averla con la nuova Yahoo! Mail
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Salve Quinte Callide

If experience serves, they will likely be understaffed and
overburdened with unreasonable demands on their time and patience ;^)

Vale optime
M Moravius Piscinus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "os390account" <Velaki@...> wrote:
>
>> However, whether anyone would want to devote themselves to
> devlopment rather than mere maintenance would most likely be based
> on the perception of the technical staff on how they would be
> treated by those they serve.
>
> Salvete,
> Q. Valerius Callidus
>

LUDI PLEBEII CIRCENSES QUARTERS

Salvete omnes,

Today in Ludi Plebeii there are Ludi Circenses quarter races. And
what an influx there are of contestants: we have 19 chariots this
time! The racing fans have been active by en force, and there are
good number of chariots from all factiones.

And now to the races. Here are the chariots:

Owner: Titus Arminius Genialis
Driver: Xara Arista (a Greek 23 year-old woman)
Chariot: Rubra Fortuna II
Faction: Russata!

Owner: Maxima Valeria Messallina
Driver: Lucius
Chariot: Windchaser
Faction: Veneta

Owner: D.Arm.Brutus
Driver: Anthropophagus
Chariot: Germanica
Faction: Russata

Owner: Caius Arminius Reccanellus
Driver: Poncianus Sergius Caesar
Chariot: Erebus
Faction: Russata

Owner: Quintus Valerius Callidus
Driver: Albatinus Purgus (born in the frontier provinces of the
north, he has white/blond hair)
Chariot: Subligaculum
Faction: Albata

Owner: Quintus Servilius Priscus
Driver: Ambicatos, a Celt
Chariot: The Sunburst
Faction: Praesina

Owner: Quintus Servilius Priscus
Driver: Merddyn, a Celt
Chariot: Volcanus
Faction: Praesina

Owner: Lucius Vitellius Triarius
Driver: Felix Celeris
Chariot: Velox Puteulanus Sors II
Faction: Veneta

Owner: Lucius Vitellius Triarius
Driver: Giscon
Chariot: Venetus Magnus
Faction: Veneta

Owner: Marcus Arminius Maior
Driver: Barbarufa
Chariot: Rubidea.
Faction: Russata.

Owner: Marca Hortensia Maior
Driver: Aretas
Chariot: C. Stella Iudaeae
Faction: Praesina

Owner: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
Driver: Petronius Gnipho
Chariot: Vita Brevis
Faction: Albata

Owner: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
Driver: Aoife of the Silures
Chariot: Biga Fortuna
Faction: Albata

Owner: T. IULIUS SABINUS CRASSUS.
Driver: MYSELF.
Chariot: APRILIS.
Faction: RUSSATA.

Owner: M. Martianius Lupus
Driver: Ursinus
Chariot: Blue Max
Faction: Veneta

Owner: M. Martianius Lupus
Driver: Barinthus
Chariot: Faolchú Dubh
Faction: Veneta

Owner: Gaia Octavia Agrippa
Driver: Gaia Aquila
Chariot: Viridis Ventus
Faction: Praesina

Owner: Sextus Postumius Albus
Driver: Spurius Figulus
Chariot: Blazius
Faction: Russata

Owner: Decimus Aemilius Severus
Driver: Milo Domitius
Chariot: Flamma Vehemens
Faction: Russata



Quarter races:

Race 1

The chariots are:
The Sunburst, Praesina
Vita Brevis, Albata
Windchaser, Veneta
APRILIS, Russata

In the first laps of the race the formidable Windchaser took the lead
while Vita Brevis was second. Their race was tight until the midlaps
of the race when Vita Brevis managed to overtake Windchaser. However
Windchaser had an ace hidden and rushed in at the last laps and took
the win. The Sunburst was with similar tactic, and at the very finish
line overtook Vita Brevis. Aprilis was left last, it seems that it's
horses were just not strong enough.

The results then:
1. Windchaser, Veneta
2. The Sunburst, Praesina
- Vita Brevis, Albata
- APRILIS, Russata


Race 2

The chariots are:
Volcanus, Praesina
Biga Fortuna, Albata
Blue Max, Veneta
Blazius, Russata

In the first laps of the race Blazius and Blue Max raced for the
first position. The dramatic turn was when Blue Max managed to
overtake Blazius at the very end of the straight, and Blazius failed
to take the turn properly, and hit the wall violently. But Blue Max
also took some damage at this, and it seemed that it's chassis was
bent a little at the curve. And this was the golden opportunity for
Biga Fortuna, and true to its name, managed to overtook Blue Max
towards the end of the race.

The results then:
1. Biga Fortuna, Albata
2. Blue Max, Veneta
- Volcanus, Praesina
Accident: Blazius, Russata


Race 3

The chariots are:
Stella Iudaeae, Praesina
Subligaculum, Albata
Faolchú Dubh, Veneta
Rubra Fortuna II, Russata

In the first laps of the race Rubra Fortuna took the lead. The
competition for the second place was fierce, and both Subligaculum
and Stella Iudaeae raced hard to grab, switching places virtually
each lap. Then the driver of Stella Iudaeae found a way to fight
Subligaculum by lashing with whip the rival chariot driver. After few
nasty lashes, it seemed that Subligcaculum was ready to give the
second place to Stella Iudaeae. Next Stella Iudaeae started fierce
attack on Rubra Fortuna, and managed to overtake it at last lap of
the race.

The results then:
1. Stella Iudaeae, Praesina
2. Rubra Fortuna II, Russata
- Subligaculum, Albata
- Faolchú Dubh, Veneta


Race 4

The chariots are:
Viridis Ventus, Praesina
Velox Puteulanus Sors II, Veneta
Flamma Vehemens, Russata
Germanica, Russata

The fourth race was the sole show of Flamma Vehemens, which took the
lead right from the start and ruled over the track for entire race.
For second position however the race was harder with Germanica and
Velox Puteulanus Sors II fighting over it. While the two were
fighting with each other, however Viridis Ventus tried to blow cool
green breeze over the situation and overtake the both red and blue
chariot at one take. But this wasn't to be the case, Velox Puteulanus
Sors II boldly hit the side of Viridis Ventus with the consequence
that Viridis Ventus crashed the spina wall. However this also took
the best out from Velox Puteulanus Sors II itself too and Germanica
managed to take the second place.

The results then:
1. Flamma Vehemens, Russata
2. Germanica, Russata
- Velox Puteulanus Sors II, Veneta
Accident: Viridis Ventus, Praesina


Race 5

The chariots are:
Rubidea, Russata
Erebus, Russata
Venetus Magnus, Veneta

At the last race of the day there were only 3 chariots. Erebus took
the lead, but it came evident that the other two were holding back
some, and were unwilling to put pressure early on. Venetus Magnus was
first to start attacks at mid race. By bold move it managed to
overtake Erebus, and with Erebus' horses tired from flying start, it
seemed only a matter of time when Rubidea would also overtake it. And
the door was open for Rubidea, but too brief a time, and Rubidea was
forced to push Erebus out from the track, managing to brake it's wheels.

The results then:
1. Venetus Magnus, Veneta
2. Rubidea, Russata
Accident: Erebus, Russata


There were the races for today. From each race of today two best
chariots are going to the semi-finals. There's a couple of days time
for them to repair damages and rest before that. Good luck for those
who got into the semi-finals, and thank you and good-bye for the
rest, hopefully we see you on the top of the results in the next races!

Valete,

C. Curius Saturninus
(Mikko Sillanpää)

Senator - Aedilis Plebis - Propraetor Provinciae Thules
Rector Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova

e-mail: c.curius@...
www.academiathules.org
thule.novaroma.org




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete Piscine Quiritibusque!

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "marcushoratius" <mhoratius@...>
wrote:

>
> Salve Quinte Callide
>
> If experience serves, they will likely be understaffed and
> overburdened with unreasonable demands on their time and

patience ;^)

*laughing* You're absolutely right. The thing though is not
solving by throwing people at the problem, but rather taking the
time to plan it out as a formal "feature/enhancement" project. This
way we can minimize any negative impact resulting from making such
core changes in the system.

It is a tremendous demand on our time, but we can achieve it, albeit
next year; however, I'd rather not have too many people poking
around the back-end code. If they were professional programmers,
with enough experience to warrant such access, then they might be
considered for core implementation teams. This metaphysical realm
of Nova Roma looks to the policy and direction set forth by the
magistrates for guidance only. It is analogous to a car. The
magistrates may choose the type of fuel, the destination, the speed,
and the time they would like to attempt to travel; but the tech
people control the engine itself. You do not instruct the fuel-
injectors. You simply press the gas pedal, and go.

For those wishing to help out in the content management, look and
feel, and overall workflow of the site, I would defer to Agricola
and his excellent command of the site's technical issues. He and
his team have made the site the easily navigable wonder it is. Eos
laudo!

I guess I'm trying to say that micromanagement is the key issue, and
should be avoided. The magistrates need to work WITH the tech
staff, and not through impatience and misunderstanding inadvertently
treat them as tech slaves. Faber non servus, ne?

Valete!
Q. Valerius Callidus

Lentulus Pompeiae Straboni sal.

>>> Pompeia: Excellent thinking Rogator! Thank you for taking the

initiative to suggest this. Could you collaborate with the technical
staff of Nova Roma to see if this could be done by them? <<<


I am willing to do everything for preserving and improving this system.

>>> After all,you are Rogator, yes? :>) Is it doable in practice? Then you could

report to the Censors. This would greatly minimize the root problems
with the sequential voting scheme. <<<


I would like to contact the technical staff who are resposible for the lections, but I think it's only Octavius censor, who deal with this. Is M. Lucretius' staff involved in these questions?


Vale!




---------------------------------

---------------------------------
L'email della prossima generazione? Puoi averla con la nuova Yahoo! Mail

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Q. Valerius Callidus C. Curio Saturnino S.P.D.

A most excellent race! I really enjoy reading these. They're full of
vitality and excitement that is very Roman in spirit. You're making
the games fun and enjoyable. That must surely be pleasing to Neptune.

Keep up the great work!

Multas gratias tibi ago valeque,
Callidus

M Moravius Piscinus Quiritibus SPD:

I am of the opinion that we should retain the provision for selecting
a centuria praerogativa. Voting sequentially by distinguishing a
separate voting period for the first class centuries is unnecessary
and we could do without.

The centuria praerogativa is intended to be an auspicia oblativa.
Cicero described its vote as an auspicial validation of the legitimacy
of an election (De. Div. 1.103: omen iustorum comitiorum); that is,
that when done properly it was taken as a sign of divine participation
in the electorial process and thus that the results of the election
would express the will of the Gods as well as the will of the People.

One thing that's certain is that someone needs to keep track of what
centuria is selected as the praerogativa in any election. Centuria
II, if ever selected again, should perhaps be considered an ill omen,
and the voting halted until problems are rectified, lest we again have
such a confusing election as this one is turning out.

Prior to the reform of the comitia centuriata in the mid-third
century, the praerogativa was selected from one of the first six
centuriae that were reserved for the equites; the sex suffragia. In
similar fashion we could provide that selection of the praerogativa be
from centuriae I to VI, or from among any of the first class
centuriae, as being in classus I would imply that these Citizens are
more familiar with the voting process. There ought to be a way for
the Citizens in the praerogativa to vote prior to making the location
of the cista accessible to other voters. The convening magistrate
could send private emails to inform those who are in the praerogativa
to vote and where. Anyway there are different ways to consider how to
retain use of a centuria praerogativa that would not run into
technical problems and could, as much as possible, avoid human errors.

Sequential voting by class was done primarily to exclude those in the
lowest classes. At different times, voting units were reserved for
the Equites Equo Populi in classus I, and for engineers IIRC between
classes I and II, and at times there were special voting units that
voted last, composed of proletaria, muscians, or dancers/mimes,
depending on the era. Election results would be determined before
these lowest clases of citizens would need vote, so they often would
end up not voting at all. They were deliberately discriminated
against because of social attitudes of those times towards such
professions. We do not have such attitudes in Nova Roma's electorial
process, and we have no need to cultivate them.



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gregory Rose" <gregory.rose@...>
wrote:

>
> Scaurus Quiritibus SPD.
>
> Sequential voting preserves an important religious tradition in which
> the centuria praerogativa represents an opporunity for the Di
> Immortales to express their electoral preferences. We get so little
> right in NR; let's not repudiate what we manage to get right.
>
> Valete.
>
> Scaurus
>

Salvete omnes,

I apologize that I cannot elaborate this idea too much due my hectic
schedule at the moment.

In the past days I've seen many messages about the current elections
and apparent problems there has been in this and past elections.
Especially messages like "let's get rid of something" and "let's not
get rid of something" have got my attention.

As far as I can see, the best way to move on, in general, is to think
what are short and long term problems and goals. If it is that our
citizens have not well adopted the voting procedure we have, which is
quite historical in some respects, rather than say either-or into any
direction, why not try to eat elephant in pieces? Ask what is the
problem, and how to solve it piece by piece.

If it is that our citizens do not know how to cast their votes at
proper time, why not get up some script at the website database which
would automatically send each and everyone a reminder when they can
vote? Of course it might require substantial amount of work, but
certainly it's not impossible to do. Just get a programmer and agree
with a schedule and other details (even payment?), and that's it. If
a citizen, after recieving a clear cut instructions when he or she
can vote, fails to follow those orders, I'd say he or she is beyond
our help.

Or we could agree that we take a two year period during which there's
a simplified voting system in use and then at certain point start
using whatever system we want, and during this transition period we
make sure that the new system is as clear to use as possible,
whatever technical and other work it may require. Then we would have
the goals and resources clear, and probably also some challenges and
limitations as well.

So instead of saying get rid or not of this or that, say that what
you want to achieve and how you see it could be achieved.

There isn't any hurry to solve everything right here right now, but
instead we should formulate a good practical plan what we want to
achieve and in what schedule and with what resources.

Again apologises for shortness of this and the quick tone of voice.

Valete,

C. Curius Saturninus
(Mikko Sillanpää)

Senator - Aedilis Plebis - Propraetor Provinciae Thules
Rector Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova

e-mail: c.curius@...
www.academiathules.org
thule.novaroma.org




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

M. Hortensia L. Vitellio spd;
with all the problems with the centuries, Vitellius's wonderful
contribution might have been overlooked. I wanted to repost the link;
http://www.mydeo.com/videorequest.asp?XID=7477&CID=138980

quirites watch it; it is so splendid & moving.
L. Vitellio, tibi congratulari. These games are the finest I
can remember in Nova Roma.
Marca Hortensia Maior

> Salvete,
>
> Today we have Art Contest day in Ludi Plebeii. For the first time
> that I can remember we have a video contribution, and winner for

Art

> Contest in Ludi.
>
> The winner is L. Vitellius Triarius' video "Equorum Probatio -
> Juppiter - Epulum Jovi". You can watch it at:
> http://www.mydeo.com/videorequest.asp?XID=7477&CID=138980
>
> Valete,
>
> C. Curius Saturninus
> (Mikko Sillanpää)
>
> Senator - Aedilis Plebis - Propraetor Provinciae Thules
> Rector Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
>
> e-mail: c.curius@...
> www.academiathules.org
> thule.novaroma.org
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

M. Hortensia Callido sal;
they are wonderful this year, the theatrum Saturninum,
Vitellius's video entry, the munera (my gladiator perished,eheu) and
now my favorite the chariot races.
May the Greens, Praesina take the day!
Dea Fortuna let Stella Iudaeae win; finally!
Maior

> A most excellent race! I really enjoy reading these. They're full

of

> vitality and excitement that is very Roman in spirit. You're making
> the games fun and enjoyable. That must surely be pleasing to

Neptune.

>
> Keep up the great work!
>
> Multas gratias tibi ago valeque,
> Callidus
>

---Salvete Hortensia Maior, L. Vitellius, et Omnes:

Darned.I'm having trouble getting onto the site...maybe I'm not being
patient enough. I'll keep trying.

Hoever, I enjoyed Vitellius' poem very much, and I forgot to say
something. A belated kudos Vitellius :>)

valete
Pompeia


In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@...> wrote:

>
> M. Hortensia L. Vitellio spd;
> with all the problems with the centuries, Vitellius's wonderful
> contribution might have been overlooked. I wanted to repost the link;
> http://www.mydeo.com/videorequest.asp?XID=7477&CID=138980
>
> quirites watch it; it is so splendid & moving.
> L. Vitellio, tibi congratulari. These games are the finest I
> can remember in Nova Roma.
> Marca Hortensia Maior
> > Salvete,
> >
> > Today we have Art Contest day in Ludi Plebeii. For the first time
> > that I can remember we have a video contribution, and winner for
> Art
> > Contest in Ludi.
> >
> > The winner is L. Vitellius Triarius' video "Equorum Probatio -
> > Juppiter - Epulum Jovi". You can watch it at:
> > http://www.mydeo.com/videorequest.asp?XID=7477&CID=138980
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > C. Curius Saturninus
> > (Mikko Sillanpää)
> >
> > Senator - Aedilis Plebis - Propraetor Provinciae Thules
> > Rector Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
> >
> > e-mail: c.curius@
> > www.academiathules.org
> > thule.novaroma.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

Salvete omnes,

I have been away from the computer for several days. I have tried to
read through all the posts regarding the elections, but I confess I am
confused.

I believe I know that the Plebian elections were held as originally
scheduled. However, I don't know when the remaining elections are
schedule to be held, or if they are in some kind of "intercessio" limbo.

Can anyone enlighten me ;-)

Valete,

C. Popillius Laenas

When I go to the Nova Roma site, and click on the
link for the Treasury, I find that for the last three
years, the links for the financial reports are in red
(i.e. not there). Can anyone explain to me why there
are no financial reports in three year's time?

Or are they posted in some file somewhere else?
What is the current condition of Nova Roma's finances?
Thanks.

Lucius Quintius Constantius


____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you
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Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus Lucio Quintio Constantio salutem dicit

Patricia Cassia is currently the "chief financial officer" of Nova
Roma and has control over the bank account of Nova Roma. The
magistrates of Nova Roma should be the ones who maintain the bank
account, namely, the quaestores as corporate treasurers of Nova Roma.
However, that is not the reality. What is the reality, as I see it,
is Patricia Cassia controlling the bank account and her not adequately
reporting financial statements to the senate or consules. It seems
increasingly difficult to get her to report on our finances and to
provide financial based information.

The Cassia stronghold of Nova Roma (between her and Marcus Cassius
Julianus) needs to end and Nova Roma needs to be controlled by the
magistrates and the senate and not Patricia Cassia and Marcus Cassius
Julianus.

Vale:

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus

On Nov 12, 2007 5:55 PM, politicog <politicog@...> wrote:
>
> When I go to the Nova Roma site, and click on the
> link for the Treasury, I find that for the last three
> years, the links for the financial reports are in red
> (i.e. not there). Can anyone explain to me why there
> are no financial reports in three year's time?
>
> Or are they posted in some file somewhere else?
> What is the current condition of Nova Roma's finances?
> Thanks.
>
> Lucius Quintius Constantius

Agricola Sabino sal.

You are exactly right. We cannot rely on e-mail as a solution to this
problem.

Sooner or later we have to expect people to learn a little tiny bit
about our system. To understand in which century one votes is not a
difficult thing. To understand how the centuries vote is not a
difficult thing. All this information is available on our website.

The penalty for not understanding these things may be that one's vote
is not counted, just like going to vote in macronational elections on
the wrong day.

optime vale!


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Titus Iulius Sabinus"
<iulius_sabinus@...> wrote:

>
> SALVE ET SALVETE!
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus
> <cn_corn_lent@> wrote:
>
> > The solution for avoiding misunderstanding when one can vote would
> be to use a tool in the NR website which sends an automated e-mail to
> every citizen when he can start vote, and not to open the cista just
> for those who are currently entitled to vote>>>
>
> Unfortunately, this will not work because two reasons:
> - it is very difficult to create these tools, sometime impossible.
> - even if tools are created, my last experience dealing with
> provincial census job and NR list moderation, show me that people
> usually change their e-mail addresses and they don't announce in
> proper time about that.
>
> VALETE,
> IVL SABINVS
>

Reminder from:		Nova-Roma Yahoo! Group
Title:		Election Information
Date:		Tuesday November 13, 2007
Time:		12:15 am - 1:15 am
Repeats:		This event repeats every day until Saturday November 17, 2007.
Location:		http://novaroma.org/nr/Election_MMDCCLX_(Nova_Roma)
Notes:		*Election information *Candidates *Candidate statements *Rogationes (proposed laws) are all located at http://novaroma.org/nr/Election_MMDCCLX_%28Nova_Roma%29
Get reminders on your mobile, Yahoo! Messenger, and email. Edit reminder options

Copyright © 2007  Yahoo! Inc. All Rights Reserved | Terms of Service | Privacy Policy

L. Vitellius M. Hortensia SPD,

Glad to see the "grasscutters" won one! (hehehe...LOL)

Vale optime et "See Ya in The Sand" tomorrow!

Triarius
Factio VENETA ~ "The Blues Rule"

P.S. Oh, BTW, Maior, I painted my lawnmower...BLUE!

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> M. Hortensia Callido sal;
> they are wonderful this year, the theatrum Saturninum,
> Vitellius's video entry, the munera (my gladiator perished,eheu)
and
> now my favorite the chariot races.
> May the Greens, Praesina take the day!
> Dea Fortuna let Stella Iudaeae win; finally!
> Maior
>
> > A most excellent race! I really enjoy reading these. They're
full
> of
> > vitality and excitement that is very Roman in spirit. You're
making
> > the games fun and enjoyable. That must surely be pleasing to
> Neptune.
> >
> > Keep up the great work!
> >
> > Multas gratias tibi ago valeque,
> > Callidus
> >
>

Salve!

I agree. They barely participate anyway. I haven't heard from Marcus Cassius since May. Why is the Pontifex Maximus so uninvolved? They're probably too busy, I reckon. I'd rather have active participants involved in the Treasury and Religio who aren't so busy. But considering we're incorporated in Maine, would that be possible?

Vale,

Annia Minucia Marcella
http://www.myspace.com/novabritannia
http://novabritannia.org/
http://minucia.ciarin.com

----- Original Message -----
From: David Kling (Modianus)
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 6:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Questions for the Quaestors (or anyone who knows)


Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus Lucio Quintio Constantio salutem dicit

Patricia Cassia is currently the "chief financial officer" of Nova
Roma and has control over the bank account of Nova Roma. The
magistrates of Nova Roma should be the ones who maintain the bank
account, namely, the quaestores as corporate treasurers of Nova Roma.
However, that is not the reality. What is the reality, as I see it,
is Patricia Cassia controlling the bank account and her not adequately
reporting financial statements to the senate or consules. It seems
increasingly difficult to get her to report on our finances and to
provide financial based information.

The Cassia stronghold of Nova Roma (between her and Marcus Cassius
Julianus) needs to end and Nova Roma needs to be controlled by the
magistrates and the senate and not Patricia Cassia and Marcus Cassius
Julianus.

Vale:

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus

On Nov 12, 2007 5:55 PM, politicog <politicog@...> wrote:
>
> When I go to the Nova Roma site, and click on the
> link for the Treasury, I find that for the last three
> years, the links for the financial reports are in red
> (i.e. not there). Can anyone explain to me why there
> are no financial reports in three year's time?
>
> Or are they posted in some file somewhere else?
> What is the current condition of Nova Roma's finances?
> Thanks.
>
> Lucius Quintius Constantius




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete,

If you go to the Election Page for the current election, you CANNOT
keep from noticing this very large obnoxiously yellow box with text.
This is an attention box and it DOES get your attention.

In this box, I would propose that a simple set of steps for
sequential voting be placed at the top of this box to read first,
explaining it to all.

After the election, this yellow box needs to be placed on a separate
wiki page entitled "How to Vote in Nova Roma Elections."

This should solve the problem. For the most part, Nova Roma is like
any other election process. The Whens and How Tos are important to
citizens pretty much only at election time, which is logical. If
someone during the year needs the information, they can always
access the How to Vote page for reference. The process just need a
little tweeking, that's all. It has seemed to run fairly smooth up
until this election.

What we DO NOT need to do is tie up a whole lot of time trying
to "reinvent the wheel" when we have a fairly new one that just
needs a little grease. (Triarius reachs in his toga and pulls out a
small caske of Slappius' Chariot Axle Grease and smears some on the
side of the cista.)

Vale optime,
Triarius

Salvete,

> Hoever, I enjoyed Vitellius' poem very much, and I forgot to say
> something. A belated kudos Vitellius :>)

Thanks for watching and reading my entries.

> Darned.I'm having trouble getting onto the site...maybe I'm not

being

> patient enough. I'll keep trying.

If you're having trouble viewing the movie clip, you might try
opening windows media player, then clicking on the link. Also, I
save the first film in a lower setting, but the quality was horrible
because of the image transitions, so I had to reformat it in a
broadband setting. If you don't have broadband, it will take forever
to load. For this I do apologize, but it could not be helped.

> > These games are the finest I
> > can remember in Nova Roma.

Yes, they have been excellent games so far. My only complaint is
that they have not received as much attention as they should have.

These games are the longest and one of the most important Ludi we
present (in my opinion), yet...there is not even a link from the
main page and nothing under the current events links.

The only way to get to the Ludi page is to find it through the
search tool (#4 on the "Ludi" search list.)

When I first joined NR, the Ludi games were highly publicized and
there seemed to be many entries for things and contestants. That has
for some reason dwindled. I hope this year, there will be more
participation.

Vale optime,
Triarius



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "pompeia_minucia_tiberia"
<pompeia_minucia_tiberia@...> wrote:

>
> ---Salvete Hortensia Maior, L. Vitellius, et Omnes:
>
> Darned.I'm having trouble getting onto the site...maybe I'm not

being

> patient enough. I'll keep trying.
>
> Hoever, I enjoyed Vitellius' poem very much, and I forgot to say
> something. A belated kudos Vitellius :>)
>
> valete
> Pompeia
>
>
> In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@> wrote:
> >
> > M. Hortensia L. Vitellio spd;
> > with all the problems with the centuries, Vitellius's

wonderful

> > contribution might have been overlooked. I wanted to repost the

link;

> > http://www.mydeo.com/videorequest.asp?XID=7477&CID=138980
> >
> > quirites watch it; it is so splendid & moving.
> > L. Vitellio, tibi congratulari. These games are the finest

I

> > can remember in Nova Roma.
> > Marca Hortensia Maior
> > > Salvete,
> > >
> > > Today we have Art Contest day in Ludi Plebeii. For the first

time

> > > that I can remember we have a video contribution, and winner

for

> > Art
> > > Contest in Ludi.
> > >
> > > The winner is L. Vitellius Triarius' video "Equorum Probatio -

> > > Juppiter - Epulum Jovi". You can watch it at:
> > > http://www.mydeo.com/videorequest.asp?XID=7477&CID=138980
> > >
> > > Valete,
> > >
> > > C. Curius Saturninus
> > > (Mikko Sillanpää)
> > >
> > > Senator - Aedilis Plebis - Propraetor Provinciae Thules
> > > Rector Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
> > >
> > > e-mail: c.curius@
> > > www.academiathules.org
> > > thule.novaroma.org
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>

Salvete,

> Hoever, I enjoyed Vitellius' poem very much, and I forgot to say
> something. A belated kudos Vitellius :>)

Thanks for watching and reading my entries.

> Darned.I'm having trouble getting onto the site...maybe I'm not

being

> patient enough. I'll keep trying.

If you're having trouble viewing the movie clip, you might try
opening windows media player, then clicking on the link. Also, I
save the first film in a lower setting, but the quality was horrible
because of the image transitions, so I had to reformat it in a
broadband setting. If you don't have broadband, it will take forever
to load. For this I do apologize, but it could not be helped.

> > These games are the finest I
> > can remember in Nova Roma.

Yes, they have been excellent games so far. My only complaint is
that they have not received as much attention as they should have.

These games are the longest and one of the most important Ludi we
present (in my opinion), yet...there is not even a link from the
main page and nothing under the current events links.

The only way to get to the Ludi page is to find it through the
search tool (#4 on the "Ludi" search list.)

When I first joined NR, the Ludi games were highly publicized and
there seemed to be many entries for things and contestants. That has
for some reason dwindled. I hope this year, there will be more
participation.

Vale optime,
Triarius



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "pompeia_minucia_tiberia"
<pompeia_minucia_tiberia@...> wrote:

>
> ---Salvete Hortensia Maior, L. Vitellius, et Omnes:
>
> Darned.I'm having trouble getting onto the site...maybe I'm not

being

> patient enough. I'll keep trying.
>
> Hoever, I enjoyed Vitellius' poem very much, and I forgot to say
> something. A belated kudos Vitellius :>)
>
> valete
> Pompeia
>
>
> In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@> wrote:
> >
> > M. Hortensia L. Vitellio spd;
> > with all the problems with the centuries, Vitellius's

wonderful

> > contribution might have been overlooked. I wanted to repost the

link;

> > http://www.mydeo.com/videorequest.asp?XID=7477&CID=138980
> >
> > quirites watch it; it is so splendid & moving.
> > L. Vitellio, tibi congratulari. These games are the finest

I

> > can remember in Nova Roma.
> > Marca Hortensia Maior
> > > Salvete,
> > >
> > > Today we have Art Contest day in Ludi Plebeii. For the first

time

> > > that I can remember we have a video contribution, and winner

for

> > Art
> > > Contest in Ludi.
> > >
> > > The winner is L. Vitellius Triarius' video "Equorum Probatio -

> > > Juppiter - Epulum Jovi". You can watch it at:
> > > http://www.mydeo.com/videorequest.asp?XID=7477&CID=138980
> > >
> > > Valete,
> > >
> > > C. Curius Saturninus
> > > (Mikko Sillanpää)
> > >
> > > Senator - Aedilis Plebis - Propraetor Provinciae Thules
> > > Rector Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
> > >
> > > e-mail: c.curius@
> > > www.academiathules.org
> > > thule.novaroma.org
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>