A. Tullia Scholastica Ti. Galerio Paulino L. Iulio Regulo quiritibus bonae
voluntatis S.P.D.

> Salvete Lucius Iulius Regulus et Marca Hortensia Maior
>
> The Praetors of Nova Roma as the chief moderators of this list should have
> pointed this out to you and because they have not I will.

> NO ONE in Nova Roma has anything to fear from speaking their minds or
> expressing an opinion. This will be true on any topic in this forum as long
> as I am Consul. I am sure this will also be the case with next years Consuls
> and Praetors as well.

And with this year's magistrates as well. I have personally approved 8
consecutive posts to this list inside of two hours, rejected two as
duplicates of other posts I had just approved, and then approved two more.
There are certain limitations on what is permitted, but open discussion is
allowed here. That includes on the Religio. However, we are NOT all adults
on the ML, and we are not all Roman citizens, either, nor are we all in it
for the long haul. There is a lot of turnover in the ML membership, with
new people arriving and departing almost daily. There are over 1200 members
on the ML, including children, whereas the last census listed about 800
citizens, if I remember correctly. Thus we do request certain proprieties
of behavior, including those under the Yahoo terms of service and
macronational law. Reasoned discussion differs substantially from temper
tantrums and/or deliberate attempts to offend the religious or other
sensibilities of others. We encourage the former, but not the latter two.

Yahoo has been ailing a bit, and some posts are missing, as well as some
are duplicated. If you are on moderation and post, please understand that
the moderators may be asleep, or at work, or eating dinner, etc., and that
it may be a while before your post appears. Please remember, too, that
Yahoo does lose the mail, and it is not unknown for posts to appear hours,
days, or weeks later. It is also not unknown for spontaneous duplication,
triplication, or worse to occur.

>
> Free speech is a right afforded by our constitution and it will not be
> interfered with.
>
> The reasoned debate of issues, the making of sound and compelling arguments,
> having freewheeling discussions, holding sober deliberation, self
> examinations and due consideration of any idea is the hall mark of Romans
> and we should govern our self‚s accordingly.
>
> Let the debate continue
>
> Valete
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> Consul
>
>

Valete,

A. Tullia Scholastica
Praetrix

>
>
>
>> From: "Maior" <rory12001@...>
>> Reply-To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Religion
>> Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:48:36 -0000
>>
>> Lucius Iulius:
>> you are a fine civis for asking these questions. I fully support
>> Kaeso Fabius Buteo Modianus.
>> Marca Hortensia Maior
>>>
>>> Salve,
>>>
>>> I have a feeling, Marca Hortensia Maior, that the same might be
>> said to me for what I have started.;-) But I am not frightened
>> myself. I started this topic for a reason and that was to get some
>> support by a good majority of the people and it seems so far that I
>> do. As Modianus has stated, something can be done about this
>> situation. I dont believe that my ideas are ill-considered, it is a
>> great concern for many people and if those who support this idea
>> should speak out and not worry about threats. Like I stated before,
>> we are all ADULTS and we should act respectfully towards each other.
>> I am posing a full scale support for ideas put forth by Modianus,
>> all those who feel the same should state so as well.
>>>
>>>
>> Vale Bene,
>>>
>> Lucius Iulius Regulus
>>>
>>> Maior <rory12001@...> wrote:
>>> Citizens!
>>> Marinus;
>>> just wrote to me that I would be declared an enemy of the state if
>>> I did not watch out.
>>>
>>> Am I frightened? NO! Are you fellow Romans?
>>>
>>> Maior
>>>>
>>>> Let's try it!
>>>>
>>>> Consul Galeri?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------
>>>> L'email della prossima generazione? Puoi averla con la nuova
>>> Yahoo! Mail
>>>>
>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------
>>> Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail.
>> See how.
>>>
>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus Q. Valerio salutem dicit

"So long as Hortensia does indeed follow the ancient precepts given by
the gods and held sacred by our priests, then all is well."

Excellent. Then all is well.

"If demagoguery, not sound deliberation, reasoned speech, and careful,
thought-out planning, is the way of Nova Roma, then I'll make this my
one and only year."

Each person has their own style of communication. You can look
through the archives and see many heated exchanges between Marca
Hortensia Maior and myself. We have not always gotten along, and she
doesn't always express herself well through e-mail. But having spoken
with her on the phone several times I understand her form of rhetoric
much better now than I once did.

"You are honest, Modiane, and I respect that. I am not attacking those
who hold different beliefs."

This has been a point of departure for many. While I think the STATE
rituals need to be reconstructed systematically and with an
orthopraxic "vigor," I also think there is much opportunity for
individual experience of the Gods. I believe there is ample
opportunity in Nova Roma for a myriad of religious expression within
the confines of the Religio Romana.

"But in order for her pomoerium to withstand, in our case, in order
for her pomoerium to be re-established, we must act in accordance to
the sacred laws given to us."

We do have our own laws, we have the traditions of antiquity, we have
our own precedents, and we have modern sensibilities to contend with.
Example, Nova Roma HAS had woman pontifices. This is a precedent.
However, some claim that women shouldn't be pontifices and claim it
was a grave error to have woman pontifices. I disagree with this, it
may be a departure from antiquity but it is in line with precedent,
current law, and modern sensibilities. This is but one example. The
problem with reform of the religio, collegium, etc... is now. I
believe the only real solution is within the senate. However, there
are senatores who don't want to be bothered with things like the
"Religio," claiming the Collegium Pontificum should deal with it. But
the Collegium Pontificum is a dysfunctional mess, and cannot seem to
deal with anything effectively.

"All I advocate, something I've taken from every group I've ever been
a part of, is sane thinking, sober deliberations, and careful
proceedings."

Then we are in agreement.

Vale:

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus

On Nov 29, 2007 6:28 PM, Q. Valerius Poplicola <catullus.poeta@...> wrote:
>
> Q. Valerius K. Fabio Buteoni Modiano L. Iulio Regulo Notioribus SPVD:
>
> So long as Hortensia does indeed follow the ancient precepts given by the
> gods and held sacred by our priests, then all is well. But if she does not
> follow the religio, then pouring out demagoguery for its reform seems
> disrespectful to me. Yes, we can advocate reform - yes anyone can,
> Butthist,
> Christian, Jew, Dionysian, whatever. I am not "judging" her in any way - I
> am commenting that it her, and certainly I'm not singling anyone out,
> demagoguery is insulting. If demagoguery, not sound deliberation, reasoned
> speech, and careful, thought-out planning, is the way of Nova Roma, then
> I'll make this my one and only year.
>
> My vision is for Roma restored - I came here because other groups I had
> been
> involved with, religious, political, and fraternal, did not, perhaps cannot
> provide what I thought was the aim here.
>
> You are honest, Modiane, and I respect that. I am not attacking those who
> hold different beliefs. Rome had plenty of Jews living under her pomoerium.
> But in order for her pomoerium to withstand, in our case, in order for her
> pomoerium to be re-established, we must act in accordance to the sacred
> laws
> given to us. It is nefas, if we go where I think we're being led, just as
> it
> is nefas for those priests to abandon their sacred duty.
>
> So please understand the rationality - no, I'm not attacking neither you,
> nor Hortensia. I'm attacking the tactic, the demagoguery, the blatant
> disregard for better methods of achieving reform and keeping the pax
> deorum.
>
> And Iuli, I too am an outsider. I too feel that the status religionis is
> embarrassing. No need to press on that point, it is understood. All I
> advocate, something I've taken from every group I've ever been a part of,
> is
> sane thinking, sober deliberations, and careful proceedings. To
> irrationally
> go forth amens will only lead to ruin.

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus S.P.D.

For the record, so everyone is aware when the Collegium Pontificum
overturned this reform towards the end of last year I asked the
dissenting pontifices to explain what was "bad" about the reform and
none of them could effectively indicate what they disagreed with --
just that it was "no good." Additionally, during the brief periods of
discussion within the Collegium Pontificum on reform none of the
dissenting pontifices could refute or would refute the points of the
reform presented. Fl. Galerius Aurelianus, as a flamen, did offer
some comments, recommendations, and advice but to my knowledge that is
all. The reform was/is not perfect and surely could have used some
modification, but in itself was the best effort Nova Roma has seen --
dare I say since its founding -- to substantially empower the "Religio
side" of Nova Roma. Its defeat was tragic to say the least. NOTHING
was offering in its place by the dissenters of the reform.

Marcus Cassius Julianus came out of hiding to defeat the reform and
then went back into hiding. The ONLY post he has made to the
Collegium Pontificum list this WHOLE year (2007) was the same post he
made to this forum a few weeks ago defending his "I've been busy"
stance, and of course to make claims against me (i.e., that I
illegally convened the Collegium Pontificum, etc...).

Marcus Cassius Julianus and others who dissented against the reform
have had ample time to come up with a viable alternative. It seems
that what is preferred is apathy. I find that unacceptable.

Valete:

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus

On Nov 29, 2007 10:06 PM, Maior <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete Quirites;
> this is the reform that Pontifices Modianus, Metellus, Astur with
> the scholarly help of A. Apollonius Cordus, who has degree in
> Classics and law drew up.
> We were all very happy about it.....
> Marca Hortensia Maior

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus S.P.D.

Thank you for posting this. I had forgotten about Flavius Vedius
Germanicus and Lucius Cassius Cornutus. Flavius Vedius Germanicus, a
founder of Nova Roma who was an accensus of mine last year and who
also opposed the reform at the last minute after not a single
suggestion of improvement. And Lucius Cassius Cornutus, who resigned
this year as both sacerdos and diribiter. At least Cornutus had the
dignity of resigning, Germanicus has done nothing that I am aware in
his efforts of rebuilding the Sybylline Books.

The priesthood has taken a hit this year. Two pontifices have
resigned, a vestal resigned, a sacerdos officially resigned, and
countless others have unofficially resigned by failing to pay taxes
and going inactive. Truly unfortunate.

Valete:

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus

On Nov 29, 2007 10:09 PM, Maior <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete;
> and here is the end of the reform voted in December 2006, by the
> opposing pontifices, headed by Marcus Cassius Iulianus PM.....
> Marca Hortensia Maior
>
> - In ReligioRomana@yahoogroups.com, cassius622@... wrote:
>
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> The Collegium Pontificum has concluded a vote and I officially
> announce the
> results as follows:
>
> I. Flavius Vedius Germanicus has been approved for the position of
> Quindecimvir Sacris Faciundis, and therefore will undertake the
> work of rebuilding of
> the Sybylline Books.
>
> II. Lucius Cassius Cornutus has been approved for the position of
> Sacerdos
> Ianus, and will be undertaking the work of rebuilding the worship
> of Ianus in
> Nova Roma.
>
> III. The Collegium Pontificum has voted to remove the prior votes
> of the
> RESPONSVM DE QVATTVOR SVMMIS COLLEGIIS and RESPONSVM DE COLLEGIO
> PONTIFICVM.
> These two documents were placed in the Tabularium as voted items,
> and I therefore
> officially request that they be removed from the Nova Roma website.
>
> IV. The Collegium Pontificum has set a rule that a simple majority
> of
> Pontifices must vote in order for an item to pass in any Collegium
> Pontificum vote.
>
> I would ask my fellow Citizens to join me in welcoming Flavius
> Vedius
> Germanicus and Lucius Cassius Cornutus into their new positions, I
> am sure that
> they will serve both the Gods and Nova Roma well!
>
> Valete,
>
> Marcus Cassius Julianus
> Pontifex Maximus
>
> --- End forwarded message ---
>
>

> A. Tullia Scholastica Ti. Arminio Germanico Cn. Equitio Marino quiritibus
> bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
>
>
>
>
> Marinus
> Yes I have tried to contact the Governor in the past. She never got back to
> me.
>
> ATS: And perhaps she did not receive your posts. Perhaps, too, she was
> ill, or busy; I believe that at least one of our female governors is a
> student, and there are also other matters of macronational life, such as
> moving, net and/or computer difficulties, work, family emergencies, etc.
>
> Not sure what province you are in. . .
>
>
> No I have never attempted to contact you in the past.
> I have tried to contact other officials with no luck.
>
> ATS: Which ones? I don¹t recall any contact from you. Marinus is
> generally very good about answering his mail, and so am I, though it may take
> a while as I have lots of it and homework to correct, inter alia.
>
> I know there are other ways to rack up points. I just think the point system
> is goofy.
>
> ATS: The century point system may not be perfect, but it is fairly
> logical, not goofy. It rewards those who work for the betterment of the Res
> Publica. If you have only the basic century points allocated for longevity,
> it means that you have not stirred yourself to apprentice yourself to a
> magistrate as an apparitor, you have not participated in a sodalitas, or run
> for sodalitas office, or run for a magistracy in NR or the provincial
> governments or participated as a member of the RR clergy. Of course, if you
> don¹t pay the minimal membership fee, aka tax, you would not be eligible to do
> any of those things. Those who try to make NR a better place for others and
> do the work deserve a few breaks; after all, we are all volunteers.
> Magistrates, apparitores, and active members of the RR clergy spend hours and
> hours of their time working for NR; we praeceptores at the Academia Thules do
> even more, but as AT is a separate entity, no points are allocated for that.
>
>
> What I think should be done is get the provincial officials to communicate
> with the members.
>
> ATS: Some of them do, and some do not. And some provinces don¹t have
> governors or other officials, sad to say.
>
>
> I always do what is required to maintain my membership. Have done so for the
> last 6 years.
> Never been dropped.
> Thank you for your kind response
>
> Valete.
>
>
> Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@... <mailto:gawne%40cesmail.net> >
> wrote:
> Salve Tiberi Armini Germanice,
>
> Tiberius Arminius Germanicus writes:
>
>> > Can anyone explain why we would need an ID card?
>
> Maybe somebody else can. I sure don't see a need for such a thing. I
> suppose it would be like a Boy Scouts ID card, or something like that.
> Something to carry around in your pocket.
>
>> > What I want most, before I pay taxes is for the provincial
>> > authorities to make some effort to interact with their citizens. I
>> > cannot remember one time my e-mails were answered by any authority.
>
> I'm quite sure you never wrote to me then. Have you tried to contact
> your provincial governor? Do you know who she is?
>
>> > I don't think paid membership is worth only a news letter. Also,
>> > reducing members to mere "points", I think I have topped out at 50,
>> > is silly.
>
> It's true that you get century points for longevity. You can also get
> them for many other things.
>
>> > Membership should not be a one way street.
>
> With this I agree. What would you like to see Nova Roma do that it's
> not doing now?
>
>> > One last thing. It should not be up to NR to determine how
>> > "serious" we are about being a member. I know why I joined and it is
>> > none of any-ones business.
>
> Fair enough. The reasons people have for joining are their own.
> However, having spent much of my own time and money trying to contact
> people who've disappeared, I think it's fair to say that magistrates
> are right in determining who is active and who is not.
>
> Vale,
>
> CN-EQVIT-MARINVS
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Q. Valerius K. Fabio Modiano SPD:

Excellent! I love being in agreement. I do not love animosity, nor haste,
nor irrationality. I am, blatantly put, agnostic on the issue of women
pontifices, not because I discriminate against women, but because I do not
know the surrounding situation well enough to make a decision. Likewise I
didn't outright condemn women wearing togae. I tend to favor the mos
maiorum, but modern sensibilities cannot be ignored. On the other hand, I do
not like to become too radical. We must learn to differentiate between the
importance of the rite itself (as it is with sacrifices) and with the intent
behind the mos (like slavery). For example, slaves were for the economy. We
don't need slaves, and we understand better the humanity which resides in
all slaves. For slavery, though, it wasn't having slaves which was
important, but the respect shown to the superiores which was important,
whether those superiores actually be caelicolae or merely magister in
officio. As you know, the same principle was applied to the tribunus, as
whoever interrupts the tribunus plebis was considered nefas. However, do
women in the priesthood matter? I don't see anything obviously telling me
that no, they cannot be priestesses, especially since we did, after all,
have the Vestal Virgins. They and a married couple of patrician rank married
per confarreationem should be eligible for the Flamen Dialis.

I'm not trying to debate here, and I hope the feminists on board do not
think that by saying I'm "agnostic" that I'm automatically in league with
the misogynists. Nor do I advocate slavery! Not at all! I'm just trying to
show that I prefer long deliberations and historical accuracy over
irrational and frenzied demagoguery under the shout of "Reform! Reform!"
exclaimed at every ending of a person's post. Thoughtful reform is a
thousand times better than accusations, hostility, and amented threats to
harm our sacred place.

In pace Iouis, uale.

On 11/29/07, David Kling (Modianus) <tau.athanasios@...> wrote:
>
> Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus Q. Valerio salutem dicit
>
> "So long as Hortensia does indeed follow the ancient precepts given by
> the gods and held sacred by our priests, then all is well."
>
> Excellent. Then all is well.
>
> "If demagoguery, not sound deliberation, reasoned speech, and careful,
> thought-out planning, is the way of Nova Roma, then I'll make this my
> one and only year."
>
> Each person has their own style of communication. You can look
> through the archives and see many heated exchanges between Marca
> Hortensia Maior and myself. We have not always gotten along, and she
> doesn't always express herself well through e-mail. But having spoken
> with her on the phone several times I understand her form of rhetoric
> much better now than I once did.
>
> "You are honest, Modiane, and I respect that. I am not attacking those
> who hold different beliefs."
>
> This has been a point of departure for many. While I think the STATE
> rituals need to be reconstructed systematically and with an
> orthopraxic "vigor," I also think there is much opportunity for
> individual experience of the Gods. I believe there is ample
> opportunity in Nova Roma for a myriad of religious expression within
> the confines of the Religio Romana.
>
> "But in order for her pomoerium to withstand, in our case, in order
> for her pomoerium to be re-established, we must act in accordance to
> the sacred laws given to us."
>
> We do have our own laws, we have the traditions of antiquity, we have
> our own precedents, and we have modern sensibilities to contend with.
> Example, Nova Roma HAS had woman pontifices. This is a precedent.
> However, some claim that women shouldn't be pontifices and claim it
> was a grave error to have woman pontifices. I disagree with this, it
> may be a departure from antiquity but it is in line with precedent,
> current law, and modern sensibilities. This is but one example. The
> problem with reform of the religio, collegium, etc... is now. I
> believe the only real solution is within the senate. However, there
> are senatores who don't want to be bothered with things like the
> "Religio," claiming the Collegium Pontificum should deal with it. But
> the Collegium Pontificum is a dysfunctional mess, and cannot seem to
> deal with anything effectively.
>
> "All I advocate, something I've taken from every group I've ever been
> a part of, is sane thinking, sober deliberations, and careful
> proceedings."
>
> Then we are in agreement.
>
> Vale:
>
> Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus
>
> On Nov 29, 2007 6:28 PM, Q. Valerius Poplicola <catullus.poeta@...<catullus.poeta%40gmail.com>>
> wrote:
> >
> > Q. Valerius K. Fabio Buteoni Modiano L. Iulio Regulo Notioribus SPVD:
> >
> > So long as Hortensia does indeed follow the ancient precepts given by
> the
> > gods and held sacred by our priests, then all is well. But if she does
> not
> > follow the religio, then pouring out demagoguery for its reform seems
> > disrespectful to me. Yes, we can advocate reform - yes anyone can,
> > Butthist,
> > Christian, Jew, Dionysian, whatever. I am not "judging" her in any way -
> I
> > am commenting that it her, and certainly I'm not singling anyone out,
> > demagoguery is insulting. If demagoguery, not sound deliberation,
> reasoned
> > speech, and careful, thought-out planning, is the way of Nova Roma, then
> > I'll make this my one and only year.
> >
> > My vision is for Roma restored - I came here because other groups I had
> > been
> > involved with, religious, political, and fraternal, did not, perhaps
> cannot
> > provide what I thought was the aim here.
> >
> > You are honest, Modiane, and I respect that. I am not attacking those
> who
> > hold different beliefs. Rome had plenty of Jews living under her
> pomoerium.
> > But in order for her pomoerium to withstand, in our case, in order for
> her
> > pomoerium to be re-established, we must act in accordance to the sacred
> > laws
> > given to us. It is nefas, if we go where I think we're being led, just
> as
> > it
> > is nefas for those priests to abandon their sacred duty.
> >
> > So please understand the rationality - no, I'm not attacking neither
> you,
> > nor Hortensia. I'm attacking the tactic, the demagoguery, the blatant
> > disregard for better methods of achieving reform and keeping the pax
> > deorum.
> >
> > And Iuli, I too am an outsider. I too feel that the status religionis is
> > embarrassing. No need to press on that point, it is understood. All I
> > advocate, something I've taken from every group I've ever been a part
> of,
> > is
> > sane thinking, sober deliberations, and careful proceedings. To
> > irrationally
> > go forth amens will only lead to ruin.
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus Quiritibus et omnibus salutem
plurimam dicit: Bene omnibus nobis

Hodie est die pristini Kalendas Decembris; haec dies comitialis est.

AUC 536 / 217 BCE: Religious ceremonies held in wake of the disaster
at Lake Trasimene

"After these resolutions had been passed in the Senate the praetor
consulted the Collegium Pontificum as to the proper means of giving
effect to them, and L. Cornelius Lentulus, the Pontifex Maximus,
decided that the very first step to take was to refer to the people
the question of a Ver Sacrum (Sacred Spring), as this particular form
of vow could not be undertaken without the order of the people. The
form of procedure was as follows: 'Is it,' the praetor asked the
Assembly, 'your will and pleasure that all be done and performed in
manner following? That is to say, if the commonwealth of the Romans
and the Quirites be preserved, as I pray it may be, safe and sound
through these present wars - to wit, the war between Rome and
Carthage and the wars with the Gauls now dwelling on the hither side
of the Alps - then shall the Romans and Quirites present as an
offering whatever the spring shall produce from their flocks and
herds, whether it be from swine or sheep or goats or cattle, and all
that is not already devoted to any other deity shall be consecrated
to Jupiter from such time as the Senate and people shall order.
Whosoever shall make an offering let him do it at whatsoever time and
in whatsoever manner he will, and howsoever he offers it, it shall be
accounted to be duly offered. If the animal which should have been
sacrificed die, it shall be as though unconsecrated, there shall be
no sin. If any man shall hurt or slay a consecrated thing unwittingly
he shall not be held guilty. If a man shall have stolen any such
animal, the people shall not bear the guilt, nor he from whom it was
stolen. If a man offer his sacrifice unwittingly on a forbidden day,
it shall be accounted to be duly offered. Whether he do so by night
or day, whether he be slave or freeman, it shall be accounted to be
duly offered. If any sacrifice be offered before the Senate and
people have ordered that it shall be done, the people shall be free
and absolved from all guilt there from.' To the same end the Ludi
Romani were vowed at a cost of 333,333 1/3 ases, and in addition 300
oxen to Jupiter, and white oxen and the other customary victims to a
number of deities. When the vows had been duly pronounced a litany of
intercession was ordered, and not only the population of the City but
the people from the country districts, whose private interests were
being affected by the public distress, went in procession with their
wives and children. Then a lectisternium was held for three days
under the supervision of the Decemviri sacris faciundis. Six couches
were publicly exhibited; one for Jupiter and Juno, another for
Neptune and Minerva, a third for Mars and Venus, a fourth for Apollo
and Diana, a fifth for Vulcan and Vesta, and the sixth for Mercury
and Ceres. This was followed by the vowing of temples. Q. Fabius
Maximus, as Dictator, vowed the temple to Venus Erycina, because it
was laid down in the Sibylline Oracles that this vow should be made
by the man who possessed the supreme authority in the State. T.
Otacilius, the praetor, vowed the temple to Mens." ~ Titus Livius
22.10

AUC 537 / 216 BCE: Q. Fabius Pictor, sent to Delphi following the
disaster at Cannae, returns with the oracle from Apollo.

"During these occurrences Q. Fabius Pictor returned home from his
mission to Delphi. He read the response of the oracle from a
manuscript, in which were contained the names of the Gods and
Goddesses to whom supplications were to be made, and the forms to be
observed in making them. This was the closing paragraph: If ye act
thus, Romans, your estate will be better and less troubled, your
republic will go forward as ye would have it, and the victory in the
war will belong to the people of Rome. When your commonwealth is
prosperous and safe send to Pythian Apollo a gift from the gains you
have earned and honour him with your substance out of the plunder,
the booty, and the spoils. Put away from you all wanton and godless
living. He translated this from the Greek as he read it, and when he
had finished reading he said that as soon as he left the oracle he
offered sacrifice with wine and incense to all the deities who were
named, and further that he was instructed by the priest to go on
board wearing the same laurel garland in which he had visited the
oracle and not to lay it aside till he got to Rome. He stated that he
had carried out all his instructions most carefully and
conscientiously, and had laid the garland on the altar of Apollo. The
senate passed a decree that the sacrifices and intercessions which
were enjoined should be carefully performed at the earliest
opportunity." ~ Titus Livius 23.11


Our thought for today is from Epictetus' Enchiridion 36

"As the proposition, either it is day, or it is night, has much force
in a disjunctive argument, but none at all in a conjunctive one; so,
at a feast, to choose the largest share is very suitable to the
bodily appetite, but utterly inconsistent with the social spirit of
the entertainment. Remember, then, when you eat with another, not
only the value to the body of those things which are set before you,
but also the value of proper courtesy toward your host."

Fl. Galerius Aurelianus L. Iulio Regulo sal.

The election of a pontiff, augur, or flamen is for life under the terms of
our Consitution. One can be deprived of the ability to perform their sacred
offices but they cannot be unmade as a pontiff, flamen, or augur. Also, while
there is a priestly decretum that allows for the removal of a pontiff for
inactivity, it can only be done in Ian. or Feb. and then only by vote by a
quorum of the Pontifices and Augurs. The Senate cannot infringe on the
perogatives of the Sacred Colleges under the terms of the Constitution because there
is no separation of the Religio and the administration in Nova Roma, just as
was the case in Roma Antiqua.

As a flamen minor, I do not have a vote in the Sacred Colleges. I can
advise and offer suggestion on courses of action. My primary duty is to perform
certain public rites appropriate to certain Dii Immortales and Di Indigetes
and other public rites on behalf of the People and Senate of Nova Roma and all
the cultores deorum in the world. I have held some public rites and
ceremonies at private gatherings, public demonstrations, and pagan
festivals--Mercuralia, Cerialia, Paganalia, Vinalia Prioria, Meditrinalia, Fontinalia,
Neptunalia, Lupercalia--plus private rites in my home.

No one has to require me to do this because I took an oath to support the
Constitution as both a flamen and as a tribunus plebis. If you are interested
in contributing to the reconstruction and revitalization of the Religio
Romana, then do so. Whether you contribute as a private citizen doing research &
contributing to the wiki or by making application to the Sacred Colleges as a
flamen or sacerdote; each is equally honorable and helps to maintain the Pax
Deorum.

Vale.




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Fl. Galerius Aurelianus Sex. Postumio Albo sal.

If you go to the website of the Legio V Alaudae Tennessee, there is a photo
of the sacerdote Neptuni and the flamen Cerialis performing the caerimoniae
for the Meditrinalia & Fontinalia at their festivus on Oct. 13.

I will endeavor to obtain a video camera and post some rites up to You Tube
as soon as I can do so. I am not skilled at either the recording or the
posting but will try to get some help do "get 'er done!"

Vale.



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Fl. Galerius Aurelianus Marca Hortensio T. Flavio sal.

With respect, once you have sworn your oath of office to support and protect
the letter and word of the Constitution of Nova Roma, introducing a
plebiscite to change that Constitution would violate your oath. Any plebicite would
have to protect the rights and perogatives of the Sacred Colleges so I would
advise you to be very cautious in the wording of your plebiscite.

Valete.



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Sorry, Luci Iuli Regule. The Senate doesn't have any right under the
Constitution to interfere with the function of the Sacred Colleges. However, if
individuals feel that they can contribute to the Sacra et Religio by submitting
documentation of rites and ceremonies or by applying to become flamen,
pontifices, augurs, and sacerdotes; that right is guaranteed under the
Constitution and the decreta of the CP.

Fl. Galerius Aurelianus




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Salvete omnes,

I'm glad that this was brought to my attention, thank you Maior for
mentioning this on the Religio Romana list. I have been a citizen
for just under a year now, though have lurked around Nova Roma's
websites and lists for a bit longer.

I had never realized the dysfunctional state of Nova Roma until now,
and that is mostly chalked up to my disregard for Pagan Politics,
which clearly is at the heart of this dysfunction. Despite my lack
of interest in pursuing a political career in Nova Roma, I speak now
for my interest in the religious functioning of Nova Roma.

On the Wiki I have always taken notice of the names and photos
listed with each of the various clergical positions and always
thought how amazing it is that people are indeed wholeheartedly
acting on behalf of Nova Roma to uphold and maintain the Pax
Deorum. Though sadly ignorance is bliss, eh?

I must agree that those who hold a title and do nothing in return
must be dismissed, or else made to understand the weight that this
title holds. Life does happen, I'll be the first to admit it.
However, these people who have stepped up and agreed to take on
these positions have essentially signed a pact with the Gods that
they will uphold the rites that are obligated to the Gods, and have
essentially signed a pact in all of our names for do they not act on
behalf of Nova Roma? I feel ashamed to have my name represented by
these sedentary "priests" to the Gods.

I mean no disrespect, but we must remember that all clergical
positions act on behalf of us all. If those acts are not being
done, then by association all of us are subject to Ira Deum.

I came to Nova Roma looking for a community who also revelled in the
greatness of the Gods of Rome. I found that. The Mother of the
Gods Herself is what spurred me into the Religio Romana, and I'm
glad to be Her devotee. I have been working quite diligently to
personally reconstruct Her rites, and perform a monthly rite to
honor Her. I was hoping upon the completion of my reconstruction
efforts to apply for Priesthood in the Cultus of the Magna Mater; I
currently still endeavor to such a position, and this is why I am
interested in seeing these issues dealt with.

May the Gods guide Nova Roma to Pax Deorum!

Valete optime,
Titus Iulius Nero

Fl. Galerius Aurelianus Caeso Fabio Buteo Modiano sal.

I have withdrawn my application for Augur. It was an old application and it
needed to be updated. I am considering another application but am still
making a decision on that action.

M. Moravius is correct that the very foundation of the Religio Romana is the
practice of the household rites. Everything that came after was based on
the individual ritus of each familia. It is most important for that to be the
basis of every other goal in Nova Roma. Historically, Romans asked their
friends to help them interpret their dreams because dreams were frequently sent
by Dii Immortales as messages to mankind. Each of us also must consider the
private auspices to help us determine what is a proper action and what is an
improper action. Currently, I am consulting with my colleagues in the Sacred
Colleges to help me determine an important action in my life regarding Nova
Roma.

On one of his recent calendar thoughts for the day, M. Moravius quoted an
ancient philosopher in the proper duties that we owe to one's father or
brother. Those duties are not based upon the actions of the father or brother but
on the filial and fraternal duties that we owe them because they are the
father or brother. Just because one may feel that Q. Fabius or M. Cassius has
neglected their duties, it is a Roman trait to still give them the respect and
obligation that is due them as pontifices and, especially, as one of the
founders of Nova Roma. It is hoped that by showing the proper obligation, they
will perform the duties that they are obligated to perform by their oaths and
obligations as brothers and pontifices. Just as I give you the respect and
obligation that I owe you as a brother and pontifex.

Vale.



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Fl. Galerius Aurelianus G. Quinctio Flamino sal.

There is a templum in Lebanon, TN on the private land of my sister,
Violentilla Galeria Saltarix. It was contructed according to information drawn from
the ancient sources and with the writings of M. Moravius Piscinus. It was
consecrated, purified, and dedicated by a Pontiff, a flamen minor, and a
sacerdote Neptuni. It is dedicated to Neptunus Pater but there is a tree blessed
by the lightning of Summanus; an altar to Diana; altars to the geni loci, di
celestial, and the Tempestes. There is an omphalos, mundus, and augural seat.
It was dedicated on the Neptunalia, MMDCCLVIIII, and the libri templum
allows sacrifice and offerings of any sort. It has been open for use by the
People of Nova Roma since that time.

Contact Violentilla and tell her you wish to find a templum for your ritus
to Dii Immortales. I am sure that she would welcome you. Let me know you are
coming and I will bring the incense and offerings. Plus a flagon of good
med; the inestimable gift from Liber Pater to mankind.

Vale.

I joined Nova Roma primarily for the religio and I have seen absolutely no
progress. I am involved with other religious reconstructionists and the have
much more vigor. Does Odin deserve his rites to be honored more the Jupiter? I
have waited to see legal ordination for our ponifices. I have waited to see
religious gatherings and open worship of our gods. What I have seen in my
years here is religious stagnation, politics that more often than not remind me
of a bunch of teen-age role-players and a focus on the real world entirely
centered on imaginary legions belonging to historical re-enactors. Where can I
find a temple? Nova Roma owns land. The citizens are expected to pay taxes,
which I refuse to do because; unlike in my macronational experience, there are
no tangible benefits like roads (or temples). I do rites daily at my
lararium, I try to live my life with romanitas and raise my children to do the same.
I am barred from running for office though
because of my stance on taxation. That's fine, it was always the religio and
the dream of Rome for me.

Gaius Quinctius Flamininus




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Since when has religion been about what class you are in??? It should not matter what class I am in to ask for change, please keep in mind that I am in no way attacking you, I dont want anything I write taken out of context...I am a concerned citizen and practitioner of the Religio and hope that reform takes place because of all of those who raised their voices. Reform should take place because of myself, you, and all of those who want reform so that the Religio can become something more than just useless scraping. Wanting reform shouldnt be about race,faith,creed, social status, or "class system" it should be because the PEOPLE will it so. I hope that the people who have the power to push towards reform and do so for the sake of the citizens who have been abandoned religiously.

Reform the Religio!!!
Lucius Iulius Regulus

"David Kling (Modianus)" <tau.athanasios@...> wrote:
Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus S.P.D.

Rest assured that reform will not be because L. Iulius Regulus will
its, but because long time members of Nova Roma who occupy the first
class feel a need for reform. Our actions may be motivated by
citizens of other classes, and momentum might come from all areas of
Nova Roma. Change will still have to be invested in the senate,
magistrates, and priests of Nova Roma. Change has been advocated for
by myself and others for a very long time. It is neither an isolated
or new phenomenon.

Valete:

Caeso Buteo

On Nov 29, 2007 6:06 PM, Q. Valerius Poplicola <catullus.poeta@...> wrote:
>
> Q. Valerius Poplicola L. Iulio Regulo SPD:
>
> What title can you strip from me? Though I've been participant in several
> Roman groups for years now, including a private one in my own city, and
> through a good part the breakaway Societas Via Romana, I am but a new
> citizen here, without yet decoration. I merely defend what I know to be
> Roman of old. Rebellion led to the abolishment of the Republic. I do not
> strive to be the wizened old Senator angrily rejecting everything the
> Gracchi try to pass. No, instead I want to preserve the Senate and the
> People. I already said I'm in favor of stripping the incompetent of their
> status, but we must do it cautiously, with much deliberation, lest we
> overthrow the Republic when we try to reform. Reform ought to come
> gradually, even if now is the time to begin that reform. I fear the
> demagoguery, as I've seen where it has led us before, and where certainly
> it
> will lead us again. I am not attacking you nor anyone else who advocates
> reform. I am cautioning against the violent movement which can ultimately
> kill everything.
>
> So yes, by all means, advocate reform! Let's make sure we do not cross the
> mos maiorum when we do so. I'd hate to see the ira deum fall upon what I
> see
> as the most noble endeavor in our times - our search for a new Republic.
>
> e amore romae, uale in pace.
>
>
> On 11/29/07, Michael Echevarria <luciusjul25@...> wrote:
> >
> > Salve,
> >
> > Rebellion and Reform are only dangerous to those who might see there
> > status and appointments stripped away!!!! If they dont want there
> > appointments stripped from them then should act on what the citizens call
> > for, for what the citizens need. We, the people, aspire for a better
> > religious life which was one of the foundations put forth by the creation
> of
> > Nova Roma. The citizens should not be called "Rebels" if they want to see
> a
> > change for the better. All who are able, should act now and speak out.
> > Reform for the Religio!!!!
> >
> > Vale Bene,
> > Lucius Iulius Regulus
> >
> > "Q. Valerius Poplicola"
> <catullus.poeta@...<catullus.poeta%40gmail.com>>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > Quintus Valerius Poplicola omnibus Romanis SPVD:
> >
> > Fellow Romans, I would like to plea for sanity regarding the religio
> > Romana.
> > The dictatorship has always been used in times of crisis, and threatening
> > to
> > remove a large source of income (instead sending it to the American
> > government) is downright appalling.
> >
> > Yes, something must done. But what? I disagree with the esteemed cives
> who
> > advocate extremity. I think we need to be cautious. Eventually, I can see
> > a
> > complete removal of those pontifices who do nothing. But what would we
> > replace them with? Pontifices who do something, then like their brethren
> > do
> > nothing again? Or Pontifices who are limited in both a) their
> > understanding
> > of the Religio Romana and b) forced into a position where they are
> > threatened with their office if they value patience? Or even worse,
> > setting
> > term limits which would encourage the Collegium to appoint those unworthy
> > of
> > the office if none can be found, or all those worthy of the title are
> > already removed?
> >
> > Nay, fellow Romans, I disagree that such extreme action would ultimately
> > be
> > beneficial Nova Roma. I think we ought to recognize who we are - we
> > are notRome...yet. We are an educational institution with the ultimate
> > purpose of
> > recreating Ancient Rome, if I'm not mistaken. While our ultimate goals
> > need
> > to reflect establishing and reconstituting Roma, it would be our mistake
> > if
> > ignored the building processes to get there. We need solid scholarship
> and
> > active participants proven to act to build up our society.
> >
> > I do not think that a dictator can solve this problem immediately. I
> > ultimately do not think that a Senatus Consultum will solve this problem
> > either. I think we should honor our laudable virtue patience and strive
> > towards making things better.
> >
> > First, we need a Curia, if there is not one. Second, we need a team of
> > Senators and other knowledgeable members to evaluate the pontifices to
> > make
> > sure they are in fact performing as they are required. If they are not, a
> > Senatus Consultum to address a very certain situation to me looks to be
> > the
> > best solution.
> >
> > I hear cries of "Reform! Revolution! Rebel!" But then I am taken back to
> > Saturninus the enemy of both the high Caepio and Marius. It will do us no
> > good if we just keep tearing down what we build if we cannot replace it
> > with
> > something that will actually work. Deliberations, amici, in a Curia - I'd
> > suggest off-list (or a private list) with accompaniment by the Collegium
> > and
> > other honored members, is what is to be called for. Anything else is too
> > dangerous.
> >
> > In pace Iouis, ualete.
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>





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Salvete:
I discussed this issue sometime back with Cordus, who taught Roman
law at Academia Thules. A plebicite would supercede the
Constitution.And it's very Roman. We both are very devoted to
Romanitas.

If we don't do anything, we will just have the same stagnation.

We had a terrific historical CP reform last summer with the efforts
of Pontifices Astur, Modianus and Metellus.

It was overturned by Pontifices, Scaurus, Maximus, Cassius etc...And
they have done nothing. It's a matter of keeping titles and not
caring about the cultores. I find it sad and wrong.
bene valete
Marca Hortensia Maior
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Reading_list_for_the_cultus_deorum
articles at the NRwiki I've written on:
Lar
Penates
Liber
Magna Mater
Cultus Apollonis
Fortuna
and an online temple to: Fortuna.

>
> Sorry, Luci Iuli Regule. The Senate doesn't have any right under

the

> Constitution to interfere with the function of the Sacred

Colleges. However, if

> individuals feel that they can contribute to the Sacra et Religio

by submitting

> documentation of rites and ceremonies or by applying to become

flamen,

> pontifices, augurs, and sacerdotes; that right is guaranteed under

the

> Constitution and the decreta of the CP.
>
> Fl. Galerius Aurelianus
>
>
>
>
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>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Under the Nova Roman Constitution, a plebiscite does not supercede the
Constitution. Please to remember, Marca Hortensia, that this is NOVA Roma and not
Roma Antiqua. As a former tribunus plebis, you are no doubt aware of this
fact.

I have the highest regard for Corde and his knowledge but what applied in
Roma Antiqua doesn't always apply to Nova Roma. We will just have to do the
best we can with what we have at the present.

Fl. Galerius Aurelianus



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Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus Lucio Iulio Regulo salutem dicit

I was probably not clear and for that you and others have my
apologies. What I was trying to present was that citizens can display
their distaste for Nova Roma affairs, as they are doing now and as
they have done in the past. But like Roma of antiquity Nova Roma
operates on many levels. We have an aristocracy within Nova Roma and
that is the senate which is composed of citizens of the first class
who occupy the senatorial class of Nova Roma. There is also the
magistrates of Nova Roma and especially the consules who represent a
"monarchy" of sorts within Nova Roma. The magistrates are followed by
the people and through comitia voting we have our democracy. However,
democracy and the "will of the people" is not the only means of change
within Nova Roma and change within the Religio Romana can only really
happen (as I see it) within the senate, and within the Collegium
Pontificum. Ideally, it should start in the Collegium Pontificum, and
if that is not successful -- as it has not been -- then it should
migrate to the senate.

When I talk of class I am referring to a person's position in Nova
Roma. Lets look at two examples. Myself and yourself.

I, Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus, have accumulated over 250 century
points and belong to Century One. Senator, Censor, et al. Yourself,
Lucius Iulius Regulus, have 15 century points and belong to Century
Fifty One. I mean no insult to you, Regulus, when I point this out.
But with our system, our Roman system, I as an assidui citizen of the
first class and a senator am better enabled to spearhead reform. That
doesn't mean your efforts are not important. There was a time when I
only had 15 century points, but I still spoke what was on my mind just
as you do now. Your efforts are not wasted. I, and others, hear what
you are saying and we agree with you. However, it is important that
other senatores and our magistrates become fully aware of your
concerns, which are the concerns of many of us, so they can act. It
is the actions of our senatores that will determine the outcome and
future of Nova Roma in this regard. If the senate, collectively,
refuses to address these concerns than everything we say on the matter
will simply be words on a computer screen and no change will take
place.

This is what I mean when I mentioned that change will come from the
first class. I hope that better illustrates my point, and I meant no
disrespect.

Vale:

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus

On Nov 29, 2007 10:32 PM, Michael Echevarria <luciusjul25@...> wrote:
>
> Since when has religion been about what class you are in??? It should not
> matter what class I am in to ask for change, please keep in mind that I am
> in no way attacking you, I dont want anything I write taken out of
> context...I am a concerned citizen and practitioner of the Religio and hope
> that reform takes place because of all of those who raised their voices.
> Reform should take place because of myself, you, and all of those who want
> reform so that the Religio can become something more than just useless
> scraping. Wanting reform shouldnt be about race,faith,creed, social status,
> or "class system" it should be because the PEOPLE will it so. I hope that
> the people who have the power to push towards reform and do so for the sake
> of the citizens who have been abandoned religiously.
>
>
> Reform the Religio!!!
> Lucius Iulius Regulus

Salve Marine, (happy belated Marine Corps Birthday)

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@...>
wrote:

> And that's what *I* am doing. I'm not going to go off half-cocked
>on
> some ill-considered and intemperate effort that I know will end in
> failure and recrimination. The simple fact is that right now there

is

> NO constitutional way to fix the problem. There is not a 2/3
>majority
> of senators who would back a constitutional amendment, or a

senatus

> consultum ultimum, or appoint a dictator. Those are the
> constitutional options available to us, and right now they're just
>not going to happen.

And why is that? Because the solution is as bad as the problem. It's
not because we don't want a solution to the problem, it's that no
reasonable solution has been levelly presented. What would the
dictator do or consuls acting under the SCU do?

Modianus screaming he can't reach Cassius and demanding reform is not
a call for change. As you know, Modianus is as much the problem as
Cassius because he's had it out for Cassius for a years (when he was
a Boni he was gung ho to get Cassius) and wants to replace him. No
thanks. Of course Cassius ignores him.

We agree something needs to be done to jumpstart the religio. So what
to do? Well, as Audens pointed out, he had no trouble getting ahold
of the PM. I think similar, senior, level-headed people might
approach Cassius to try and discuss a solution. I think he'll be
reachable. I'd agree to be part of such an effort, perhaps yourself
and others as well. Probably in person would be best though it may
not be practical.

Vale,


Palladius

Salvete;
I don't want to argue with you Aureliane. And I shan't. This is my
last post on this topic, that has been discussed for years

Cordus was and is fully conversant with the NR constitution,
and we discussed how to deal with it. The Constitution is silent on
the power of the plebiscite. and where the Constitution is silent
the ways of Roma Antiqua previal. Cordus construed it that we indeed
can have a plebiscite to effect change. There was a long discussion
on how to construe the magistrate's oath too. Do ask him.

And a plebiscite is the way. If the people, the plebs want change
we can have it. We are Nova Roma.
bene valete in pacem deorum
Marca Hortensia Maior

>
> Under the Nova Roman Constitution, a plebiscite does not supercede

the

> Constitution. Please to remember, Marca Hortensia, that this is

NOVA Roma and not

> Roma Antiqua. As a former tribunus plebis, you are no doubt

aware of this

> fact.
>
> I have the highest regard for Corde and his knowledge but what

applied in

> Roma Antiqua doesn't always apply to Nova Roma. We will just have

to do the

> best we can with what we have at the present.
>
> Fl. Galerius Aurelianus
>
>
>
> **************************************Check out AOL's list of

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>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus Decio Iunio Palladio salutem dicit

"Modianus screaming he can't reach Cassius and demanding reform is not
a call for change. As you know, Modianus is as much the problem as
Cassius because he's had it out for Cassius for a years (when he was a
Boni he was gung ho to get Cassius) and wants to replace him. No
thanks. Of course Cassius ignores him."

First off, I have never said that "I cannot reach Cassius." I have
spoken with Cassius. You are correct I was critical of him when I was
a Boni, that is no secret. However, if you were privy to certain
e-mails on the Amici Libra list you would know that Marcus Cassius and
I attempted to mend the problems we had, and we communicated somewhat.
He and I talked a couple of times before I appointed him an accensus
and invited him to offer advice on the reform I presented last year.
Not only did he ignore the reform proposal that was initially sent to
the senate in early 2007, but he also ignored it when it was sent to
the Collegium list both before it was approved in July and after. It
wasn't until I presented it as a senate item towards the end of 2007
that he took exception to it, and this was without any consultation
with me. He could have contacted me at any time during 2007 and
discussed the reform with me. He didn't do this, and systematically
worked to oppose the reform.

I know you, along with Q. Fabius Maximus and others, have not been
happy with me since I left the Boni. You and I once got along just
fine until that day in 2004 when I left the cabal that is the Boni.
It was at that time that I became the pariah to you that I am. This
is unfortunate but seems to be how secret groups such as the Boni
operate. You can make the claim that "Modianus is as much the problem
as Cassius" all you wish, but just because you claim something over
and over again doesn't make it true. As a matter of fact, I consider
Marcus Cassius Julianus a likable person. The conversations I have
had with him have been pleasant, and I'm sure if he and I lived closer
that our relationship would be different. It is not the person of
Marcus Cassius that I take exception to, but rather, his ability to
effectively function in the role in which he has been entrusted. I
don't fathom that anyone within Nova Roma can attest that he has done
a fine job. By the admission of senator Marcus Audens, Marcus Cassius
has lost interest in Nova Roma and it shows. This too is unfortunate.

What is further unfortunate is that the vision of Marcus Cassius and
my own are not that far apart - no matter his claim to contrary.
However, while I might think he, personally, is a "swell guy," his
actions have been insufficient to move Nova Roma forward. When the
conservative element seemed to dominate the Religio Romana list what
happens? A new list is created, Nova Religio Romana (and now that
list is inactive). When confronted with opposition in the Collegium
Pontificum, by the Boni no less, what happens? Apathy. This is no
way to operate. Ironically, he was able to rally support from the
Boni within the Collegium Pontificum to oppose the reform proposed
last year. It is too bad that Astur has lost much interest in Nova
Roma as well.

Unlike Cassius I cannot be apathetic nor tolerate apathy. My
criticism against Marcus Cassius when I was a Boni was his apathy, and
he still uses it as his favored tactic. It hasn't worked and a new
strategy is necessary.

You can disregard me all you wish. However, I do not use apathy as my
means of dealing with issues and I have the fortitude to continue to
fight for what I believe is right and just.

Vale:

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus

On Nov 30, 2007 12:23 AM, deciusiunius <bcatfd@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Marine, (happy belated Marine Corps Birthday)
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@...>
>
> wrote:
>
> > And that's what *I* am doing. I'm not going to go off half-cocked
> >on
> > some ill-considered and intemperate effort that I know will end in
> > failure and recrimination. The simple fact is that right now there
> is
> > NO constitutional way to fix the problem. There is not a 2/3
> >majority
> > of senators who would back a constitutional amendment, or a
> senatus
> > consultum ultimum, or appoint a dictator. Those are the
> > constitutional options available to us, and right now they're just
> >not going to happen.
>
> And why is that? Because the solution is as bad as the problem. It's
> not because we don't want a solution to the problem, it's that no
> reasonable solution has been levelly presented. What would the
> dictator do or consuls acting under the SCU do?
>
> Modianus screaming he can't reach Cassius and demanding reform is not
> a call for change. As you know, Modianus is as much the problem as
> Cassius because he's had it out for Cassius for a years (when he was
> a Boni he was gung ho to get Cassius) and wants to replace him. No
> thanks. Of course Cassius ignores him.
>
> We agree something needs to be done to jumpstart the religio. So what
> to do? Well, as Audens pointed out, he had no trouble getting ahold
> of the PM. I think similar, senior, level-headed people might
> approach Cassius to try and discuss a solution. I think he'll be
> reachable. I'd agree to be part of such an effort, perhaps yourself
> and others as well. Probably in person would be best though it may
> not be practical.
>
> Vale,
>
> Palladius

Agricola Agrippae sal.


Why submit anything to the pontifices? They are responsible for the
state cult only, and there is much to be said outside of that. Also,
if they have problems with what is written they can get on the site
and do better, if they desire to.

As long as you use scholarly references, are open to feedback from or
collaboration with others, and discuss major projects on NRWiki you
won't have any problems.

Optime vale in pace deorum!

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gens Iulia" <maite_cat@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete!.
> Being my birthday today (I'm turning 48... too close to the "Crone"
to be too happy about it, although a few beers are mellowing it down
quite a bit), I couldn't quite keep up with the discussion. Still I
read Lucius Iulius Regulus's post this morning.
> While I have navigated the aforesaid links (and found nothing, as he
did)... what's the problem with trying our hands at it?. I mean... if
(given time, being also a professional, as many at this list) I try to
write a few words about the "missing" Deities, using scholarly
references and the like, submit the writings to the Priests and get
their (eventual) green light... would that be such a big problem?. I
mean, any of us can look for references and write them down,
submitting them to the appointed Pontifices... right?.
> If we are not happy with something, I suppose we can do something to
fix things, within the current political structure.
> I can be wrong of course, and I'll be glad to know the right procedure.
> Valete!.
> Gaia Iulia Agrippa.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "os390account" <Velaki@...>
> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 4:37 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] From the Gods to Money
>
>
> > <prayer>
> > Concordia, please watch over this forum and my fellow citizens, and
> > may Piety, Fortune, and Mercury sit at the table with you as
> > council.
> >
> > Sweet smelling incense to you all!
> > </prayer>
> >
> > Salvete,
> >
> > I noticed how the conversation has turned from one of the desire to
> > see increased participation in the religio to one of macronational
> > threats regarding financials.
> >
> > I would prefer that we work within the framework of the constitution
> > and the senate to spur the CP to action without all this virtual
> > bloodshed.
> >
> > I have a question: Who here practices the religio? Be it correct or
> > a
> > syncretistic approximation, who here tries without waiting for
> > orthopractic perfection?
> >
> > As for the priestly caste of Nova Roma, perhaps many are simply
> > extremely busy with other pursuits in their lives, but are still
> > actively practicing the religio. Let us not condemn the whole
> > group,
> > but simply ask, take time, and watch.
> >
> > First we'll see, then we'll know. I'm sure this will all work out
> > nicely.
> >
> > Multas gratias vobis ago valeteque,
> > Q. Valerius Callidus
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.9/1158 - Release Date:
28/11/07 09:11 p.m.
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Now I realize what you were trying to put across and thank you for reposting on this. I thank you for clearing the air on that post because I was, honestly, confused because I remember reading earlier in the day that you had my support for my issues and concerns. I understand the whole "class system" situation but I really hope the senators can participate in helping bringing to order the Collegium. It was stated before by a poster,I am not sure whom exactly at this moment, that all of these issues concerning the Religio should be taken to the Collegium. My issues are with the whole Collegium and I need help from others besides those in the Collegium who dont take there appointments seriously. We need the help of all senators to put forth a reform, there is no other way. All citizens must voice there concerns about the Collegium.

Reform the Religio!!!
Lucius Iulius Regulus

"David Kling (Modianus)" <tau.athanasios@...> wrote:
Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus Lucio Iulio Regulo salutem dicit

I was probably not clear and for that you and others have my
apologies. What I was trying to present was that citizens can display
their distaste for Nova Roma affairs, as they are doing now and as
they have done in the past. But like Roma of antiquity Nova Roma
operates on many levels. We have an aristocracy within Nova Roma and
that is the senate which is composed of citizens of the first class
who occupy the senatorial class of Nova Roma. There is also the
magistrates of Nova Roma and especially the consules who represent a
"monarchy" of sorts within Nova Roma. The magistrates are followed by
the people and through comitia voting we have our democracy. However,
democracy and the "will of the people" is not the only means of change
within Nova Roma and change within the Religio Romana can only really
happen (as I see it) within the senate, and within the Collegium
Pontificum. Ideally, it should start in the Collegium Pontificum, and
if that is not successful -- as it has not been -- then it should
migrate to the senate.

When I talk of class I am referring to a person's position in Nova
Roma. Lets look at two examples. Myself and yourself.

I, Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus, have accumulated over 250 century
points and belong to Century One. Senator, Censor, et al. Yourself,
Lucius Iulius Regulus, have 15 century points and belong to Century
Fifty One. I mean no insult to you, Regulus, when I point this out.
But with our system, our Roman system, I as an assidui citizen of the
first class and a senator am better enabled to spearhead reform. That
doesn't mean your efforts are not important. There was a time when I
only had 15 century points, but I still spoke what was on my mind just
as you do now. Your efforts are not wasted. I, and others, hear what
you are saying and we agree with you. However, it is important that
other senatores and our magistrates become fully aware of your
concerns, which are the concerns of many of us, so they can act. It
is the actions of our senatores that will determine the outcome and
future of Nova Roma in this regard. If the senate, collectively,
refuses to address these concerns than everything we say on the matter
will simply be words on a computer screen and no change will take
place.

This is what I mean when I mentioned that change will come from the
first class. I hope that better illustrates my point, and I meant no
disrespect.

Vale:

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus

On Nov 29, 2007 10:32 PM, Michael Echevarria <luciusjul25@...> wrote:
>
> Since when has religion been about what class you are in??? It should not
> matter what class I am in to ask for change, please keep in mind that I am
> in no way attacking you, I dont want anything I write taken out of
> context...I am a concerned citizen and practitioner of the Religio and hope
> that reform takes place because of all of those who raised their voices.
> Reform should take place because of myself, you, and all of those who want
> reform so that the Religio can become something more than just useless
> scraping. Wanting reform shouldnt be about race,faith,creed, social status,
> or "class system" it should be because the PEOPLE will it so. I hope that
> the people who have the power to push towards reform and do so for the sake
> of the citizens who have been abandoned religiously.
>
>
> Reform the Religio!!!
> Lucius Iulius Regulus





---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Marca Hortensia,

The U.S. Constitution was silent on the subject of secession. We all know
how THAT particular silence led to a long and bloody struggle that nearly
ripped the United States apart and the matter has still not been adequately
settled to many peoples' satisfaction.

The NR Constitution is the highest authority that our organization has and I
wouldn't try to push it too hard because even though you might get started
with challenging that authority with a plebiscite, you could still end up being
deprived of certain of your rights by a censorial nota. Remember, the
results of the election have still not been announced and you might have lost.

Finally, do not bring up Roma Antiqua as the final authority that must
prevail where the NR Constitution is silent. This ain't Roma Antiqua and you are
not in Kansas anymore, soror.

Fl. Galerius Aurelianus



**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest
products.
(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Q. Valerius Poplicola Hortensiae Cordoque SPD:

It is my understanding from your post, Hortensia, that Cordus stated that a
plebiscite in Roma Antiqua could change their constitutio. What evidence
does Cordus have that the Romans had a constitutio? Jolowicz in his Historical
Introduction to the Study of Roman Law states quite clearly that the Romans
did not have a constitution. Unless you're counting the 12 Tables, but they
could be changed by lex anyway, if I remember correctly. But even then, the
12 Tables were not the equivalent of our constitutio. Does Cordus see
something I've missed?

in pace deum, ualete.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete Omnes!

How about we keep focused on the issues and stow the rest?

Let's work on a feasible, practical plan to address the problems with
the religio romana and it's clergy. We can ask the PM directly through
e-mail or snail mail what he intends to do about it, and if he might
like to step down. I might even be able to drive up to maine and talk
to him in person. We should try to come up with an overseeing commitee
to make sure the clergy do not shirk their duties(unless mitigating
circumstances come up, for example one of our pontifices is serving in
Iraq at the moment, I believe he resigned as pontifex though).

Let's make sure we solve the financial situation of Nova Roma.

I like the ID thing, I've already printed and laminated mine. I think
I could come up with a pamphlet if no one else will. My province has
t-shirts with the provincial flag on it, perhaps other provinces can
do the same(cafepress.com is what we're using). We should be doing
more work on the provincial level. Perhaps the other governors and I
could swap ideas.

Valete,

Annia Minucia Marcella
http://www.myspace.com/novabritannia
http://novabritannia.org/
http://ciarin.com/governor

Maior Poplicolae spd;
please call me Maior. No, I've read Jolowicz too. I know and you
know there was no constitution in Roma Antiqua. I wish NR didn't
have one either and it were scrapped.

The discussion, really his & the ML was how to construe the present
Nova Roma constitution vis a vis the power of the plebs. We've all
agreed where the NR constitution is silent the mos of the Republic
apply.

And there was a long, long, discussion, which you can ask Cordus
about, as some were saying 'but the magistrates have to swear to
uphold the Constitution' etc...but I think the word is 'should.'

I don't waste my time on that document which we all know is
ahistorical & has nothing to do with the Republic. But whenever we
call for CP reform, the Constitution is dragged out to impede it.
This has been going on for year. Years.
Maior
for those with an interest Cordus wrote up a reading list on Roman
law;
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Reading_list_for_Roman_law
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Reading_list_for_the_cultus_deorum#Religio
n_and_Law
My contribution was the section of Augural law, now that is a
fascinating subject!

> Q. Valerius Poplicola Hortensiae Cordoque SPD:
>
> It is my understanding from your post, Hortensia, that Cordus

stated that a

> plebiscite in Roma Antiqua could change their constitutio. What

evidence

> does Cordus have that the Romans had a constitutio? Jolowicz in

his Historical

> Introduction to the Study of Roman Law states quite clearly that

the Romans

> did not have a constitution. Unless you're counting the 12 Tables,

but they

> could be changed by lex anyway, if I remember correctly. But even

then, the

> 12 Tables were not the equivalent of our constitutio. Does Cordus

see

> something I've missed?
>
> in pace deum, ualete.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Salvete,

I do think that the citizens have the right of plebiscite, is the very right of us citizens !

The religious leaders (CP) are here to serve the eternal gods and the people of Nova Roma.
This is my firm conviction !

I do not think that we the plebeians need to march out of Nova Roma as did our ancestors in Roma Antiqua
to get our rights pursued, or ?

Valete optime
Titus Flavius Aquila
Tribunus Plebis designatus


----- Ursprüngliche Mail ----
Von: "PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@..." <PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...>
An: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Gesendet: Freitag, den 30. November 2007, 06:20:55 Uhr
Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Religion

Under the Nova Roman Constitution, a plebiscite does not supercede the
Constitution. Please to remember, Marca Hortensia, that this is NOVA Roma and not
Roma Antiqua. As a former tribunus plebis, you are no doubt aware of this
fact.

I have the highest regard for Corde and his knowledge but what applied in
Roma Antiqua doesn't always apply to Nova Roma. We will just have to do the
best we can with what we have at the present.

Fl. Galerius Aurelianus

************ ********* ********* ********Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest
products.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





Machen Sie Yahoo! zu Ihrer Startseite. Los geht's:
http://de.yahoo.com/set

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Q. Valerius Maiori SPD:

As much as I would love to agree with you about scrapping the constitutio, I
fear that while we are not yet Roma, it might prove useful as a non-profit
organization based in Maine. Roma did not have a constitutio, and neither
should a New Roma, but Nova Roma the organization does. I see plenty of
problems with the constitutio, and have marked up all the major faults. But
I think it might be necessary while we are not yet accomplished.

And how is Barry Nicholas' work? I've enjoyed his edition of Jolowicz (
Jolowicz 3rd ed.), but haven't read his independent work yet. It's at my
library, I ought to pick it up...eheu, after Roman Farming. Are you familiar
with Buckland? I ought to update your reading list.

Regressus, if I can be shown wrong about this, I would enjoy it. Alas, you
know my position.

uale.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Q. Caecilius Metellus Anniae Minuciae Marcellae salutem plurimam dicit.

Salve, Marcella.

> How about we keep focused on the issues and stow the rest?

I'll drink to that. (I'd prefer coffee or tea, though. I'm not an
alcohol-liking chap.)

> Let's work on a feasible, practical plan to address the problems with
> the religio romana and it's clergy. We can ask the PM directly through
> e-mail or snail mail what he intends to do about it, and if he might
> like to step down. I might even be able to drive up to maine and talk
> to him in person. We should try to come up with an overseeing commitee
> to make sure the clergy do not shirk their duties(unless mitigating
> circumstances come up, for example one of our pontifices is serving in
> Iraq at the moment, I believe he resigned as pontifex though).

I'd be more than happy to hear any ideas you (or anyone else) might have
on all the above. I'll try to gather together some of my own thoughts,
and get them posted here quickly.

Ab initio, though, I would say that an oversight committee is
unnecessary, in my opinion. The citizenry should be enough for that,
and the very fact that we're having this discussion proves that enough
for me. On the issue of the pontifex with somewhat more pressing duties
at the moment, I don't recall him resigning his position publicly (or
even to the Collegium Pontificum en masse), though there was a missive
from another pontifex to the same effect. Since, per legem, he can't be
removed until January, I intend to convene the Collegium for exactly
that purpose (and the same, but for other sacerdotes) sometime in
January, unless one of my colleagues beats me to it. I'd also like to
see the Pontifex Maximus step up and take on the duties attendant to the
title he's held for so long, but that's a discussion we may be better
leaving aside for now.

> Let's make sure we solve the financial situation of Nova Roma.

That's a mess in its own merit. Perhaps handling one thing at a time
might be best.

> I like the ID thing, I've already printed and laminated mine. I think
> I could come up with a pamphlet if no one else will. My province has
> t-shirts with the provincial flag on it, perhaps other provinces can
> do the same(cafepress.com is what we're using). We should be doing
> more work on the provincial level. Perhaps the other governors and I
> could swap ideas.

I think you'll find that there are a number of us here that would like
to see more work done at the ground level. Somehow, I just don't see
pyramids being built from the top to the bottom. I think it would have
needed to go the opposite direction.

Salve Aurelianus,

This may not be Roma Antiqua, but is Nova Roma's main goal not to
reconstruct Roman culture and society? If Nova Roma is indeed about
Reconstructionism, then it is only logical to turn to our
predecessors where the current system is lacking. To not do so is
to cede to the fact that Nova Roma no longer upholds itself as a
member of the Reconstructionist movement.

Recosntructionists base all things on their historical predecessors,
adapt them to our modern situations, and always turn to historical
precedence to hypothesize the next best step.

Vale optime,
Titus Iulius Nero

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@... wrote:
>
> Marca Hortensia,
>
> The U.S. Constitution was silent on the subject of secession. We
all know
> how THAT particular silence led to a long and bloody struggle that
nearly
> ripped the United States apart and the matter has still not been
adequately
> settled to many peoples' satisfaction.
>
> The NR Constitution is the highest authority that our organization
has and I
> wouldn't try to push it too hard because even though you might get
started
> with challenging that authority with a plebiscite, you could still
end up being
> deprived of certain of your rights by a censorial nota.
Remember, the
> results of the election have still not been announced and you
might have lost.
>
> Finally, do not bring up Roma Antiqua as the final authority that
must
> prevail where the NR Constitution is silent. This ain't Roma
Antiqua and you are
> not in Kansas anymore, soror.
>
> Fl. Galerius Aurelianus
>
>
>
> **************************************Check out AOL's list of
2007's hottest
> products.
> (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?
NCID=aoltop00030000000001)
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Salve Marcella,

I agree with you 100%. We should all focus completely on how to solve these issues quickly and that is exactly what I wanted when first posting the issue of reform for the Collegium. If anyone can get in contact with the PM and have him post here in regards to the issue then all the better, but some havent had such luck contacting the PM. We all need to come up with ideas to resolve these issues and work together as was the idea when Nova Roma was created.Please Marcella, post all of your ideas so that we can all see and learn from them so as to encourage others to do the same. We must act now. All citizens are urged to let others know what is going on here and encourage them to speak out on these issues. Divided we fail.

Reform the Religio!!!
Lucius Iulius Regulus

Annia Minucia Marcella <annia@...> wrote:
Salvete Omnes!

How about we keep focused on the issues and stow the rest?

Let's work on a feasible, practical plan to address the problems with
the religio romana and it's clergy. We can ask the PM directly through
e-mail or snail mail what he intends to do about it, and if he might
like to step down. I might even be able to drive up to maine and talk
to him in person. We should try to come up with an overseeing commitee
to make sure the clergy do not shirk their duties(unless mitigating
circumstances come up, for example one of our pontifices is serving in
Iraq at the moment, I believe he resigned as pontifex though).

Let's make sure we solve the financial situation of Nova Roma.

I like the ID thing, I've already printed and laminated mine. I think
I could come up with a pamphlet if no one else will. My province has
t-shirts with the provincial flag on it, perhaps other provinces can
do the same(cafepress.com is what we're using). We should be doing
more work on the provincial level. Perhaps the other governors and I
could swap ideas.

Valete,

Annia Minucia Marcella
http://www.myspace.com/novabritannia
http://novabritannia.org/
http://ciarin.com/governor






---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Marca Hortensia Maior

"A plebicite would supercede the Constitution"

No it would not. A plebicite is nothing more than a law... "properly voted
and passed by one of the comitia"...

Cordus is wrong at least under the Nova Roman constitution

"B. Legal precedence. This Constitution shall be the highest legal authority
within Nova Roma, apart from edicts issued by a legally appointed dictator.
It shall thereafter be followed in legal authority by edicta issued by
consuls acting under the Senatus consulta ultima, laws properly voted and
passed by one of the comitia, decreta passed by the collegium pontificum,
decreta passed by the collegium augurum, Senatus consulta, and magisterial
edicta (in order of descending authority as described in section IV of this
Constitution), in that order. Should a lower authority conflict with a
higher authority, the higher authority shall take precedence. Should a law
passed by one of the comitia contradict one passed by another or the same
comitia without explicitly superseding that law, the most recent law shall
take precedence."

Right now only a Senatus consulta ultima or the appointment of a dictator
can bring about
changes in the Religio. Any changes made by a Dictator or a Consul acting
under the authority of a Senatus consulta ultima would then have to command
the support of a majority of the Senate.


Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Consul

>From: "Maior" <rory12001@...>
>Reply-To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Religion
>Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 05:13:51 -0000
>
>Salvete:
> I discussed this issue sometime back with Cordus, who taught Roman
>law at Academia Thules. A plebicite would supercede the
>Constitution.And it's very Roman. We both are very devoted to
>Romanitas.
>
>If we don't do anything, we will just have the same stagnation.
>
>We had a terrific historical CP reform last summer with the efforts
>of Pontifices Astur, Modianus and Metellus.
>
>It was overturned by Pontifices, Scaurus, Maximus, Cassius etc...And
>they have done nothing. It's a matter of keeping titles and not
>caring about the cultores. I find it sad and wrong.
> bene valete
> Marca Hortensia Maior
>http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Reading_list_for_the_cultus_deorum
>articles at the NRwiki I've written on:
>Lar
>Penates
>Liber
>Magna Mater
>Cultus Apollonis
>Fortuna
>and an online temple to: Fortuna.
>
>
> >
> > Sorry, Luci Iuli Regule. The Senate doesn't have any right under
>the
> > Constitution to interfere with the function of the Sacred
>Colleges. However, if
> > individuals feel that they can contribute to the Sacra et Religio
>by submitting
> > documentation of rites and ceremonies or by applying to become
>flamen,
> > pontifices, augurs, and sacerdotes; that right is guaranteed under
>the
> > Constitution and the decreta of the CP.
> >
> > Fl. Galerius Aurelianus
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > **************************************Check out AOL's list of
>2007's hottest
> > products.
> > (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?
>NCID=aoltop00030000000001)
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>

Cn. Lentulus Ti. Paulino consuli suo sal.

>>> Right now only a Senatus consulta ultima or the appointment of a dictator

can bring about changes in the Religio. Any changes made by a Dictator or a Consul acting under the authority of a Senatus consulta ultima would then have to command the support of a majority of the Senate. <<<


Please answer a question for us. As consul, would you be willing to propose a SCU or appointment of a "dictator sacerdotio constituendo"?


VALE!



---------------------------------

---------------------------------
L'email della prossima generazione? Puoi averla con la nuova Yahoo! Mail

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete,

> We need all the support we can get for total Reform.

A blank check? I think not. Outline in excruciating detail for me
the goals, process, and means of such a reform, and then I might
consider it. I don't think any citizen wants blind revolution, yes?

> ALL citizens must be heard so that those who doubt the power of

the citizenry can realize that Reform is needed. CITIZENS POST NOW!!!

How...bolshevik. The means of production in the hands of the
prolateriat? Or perhaps this is more akin to a cultural purge and
great leap forward?

> Reform the Religio!!!!

Mock Che, are you simply chanting this as a call for OTHERS to come
up with a solution? As I said above, what should this reform
accomplish? Then come up with a plan how to implement it.

Valete,
Q. Valerius Callidus

Salve Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus

Would you be willing to introduce a Senatus consulta ultima?

Yes I would.

The actions under the Senatus consulta ultima would have to command the
support of a majority of the Senate and would need to reflect a consensus on
exactly what reforms are needed.

We would also need to realize that some actions taken under the Senatus
consulta ultima might precipitate a far larger crisis and one that could
very well cause the organization to be destroyed.

None of this should be thought of as easy.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Consul

>From: Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus <cn_corn_lent@...>
>Reply-To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Would a plebicite would supercede the Constitution
>?
>Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 13:11:18 +0100 (CET)
>
>Cn. Lentulus Ti. Paulino consuli suo sal.
>
>
> >>> Right now only a Senatus consulta ultima or the appointment of a
>dictator
>can bring about changes in the Religio. Any changes made by a Dictator or a
>Consul acting under the authority of a Senatus consulta ultima would then
>have to command the support of a majority of the Senate. <<<
>
>
> Please answer a question for us. As consul, would you be willing to
>propose a SCU or appointment of a "dictator sacerdotio constituendo"?
>
>
> VALE!
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>
>---------------------------------
>L'email della prossima generazione? Puoi averla con la nuova Yahoo! Mail
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Lentulus Hortensiae salutem dicit:

>>> I discussed this issue sometime back with Cordus, who taught Roman

law at Academia Thules. A plebicite would supercede the Constitution. <<<


How on earth? The Constitution says that ONLY a law passed by the Comitia CENTURIATA my alter the Constitution. A plebistitum no.
Indeed, as you've said, the Constitution is silent about the power of the plebiscitum, bit it's not silent about what can alter the Constitution. A lex of the Comitia Centuriata can alter it -- or a dictator.


So, Consul Galeri, would you willing to make the Senate appoint a dictator?


Vale! Valete!




Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus,
R O G A T O R
------------------------------------------
Legatus Pro Praetore Provinciae Pannoniae
Sacerdos Provinciae Pannoniae
Interpres Linguae Hungaricae
Accensus Consulis Ti. Galerii Paulini
Scriba Praetricis A. Tulliae Scholasticae
Scriba Aedilis Curulis Iuliae Caesaris Cytheridis Aeges
Scriba Interpretis Linguae Latinae A. Tulliae Scholasticae
-------------------------------------------
Decurio I. Sodalitatis Latinitatis
Dominus Factionis Russatae
Latinista, Classicus Philologus


---------------------------------

---------------------------------
L'email della prossima generazione? Puoi averla con la nuova Yahoo! Mail

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus

"So, Consul Galeri, would you willing to make the Senate appoint a
dictator?"

No I am not .

I do not believe we are at the point that needs the
services of a dictator. A SCU will do what needs to be done.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Consul

>From: Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus <cn_corn_lent@...>
>Reply-To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Nova-Roma] Plebiscitum over Constitution
>Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 13:45:14 +0100 (CET)
>
>Lentulus Hortensiae salutem dicit:
>
>
> >>> I discussed this issue sometime back with Cordus, who taught Roman
>law at Academia Thules. A plebicite would supercede the Constitution. <<<
>
>
> How on earth? The Constitution says that ONLY a law passed by the
>Comitia CENTURIATA my alter the Constitution. A plebistitum no.
> Indeed, as you've said, the Constitution is silent about the power of
>the plebiscitum, bit it's not silent about what can alter the Constitution.
>A lex of the Comitia Centuriata can alter it -- or a dictator.
>
>
> So, Consul Galeri, would you willing to make the Senate appoint a
>dictator?
>
>
> Vale! Valete!
>
>
>
>
>Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus,
>R O G A T O R
>------------------------------------------
>Legatus Pro Praetore Provinciae Pannoniae
>Sacerdos Provinciae Pannoniae
>Interpres Linguae Hungaricae
>Accensus Consulis Ti. Galerii Paulini
>Scriba Praetricis A. Tulliae Scholasticae
>Scriba Aedilis Curulis Iuliae Caesaris Cytheridis Aeges
>Scriba Interpretis Linguae Latinae A. Tulliae Scholasticae
>-------------------------------------------
>Decurio I. Sodalitatis Latinitatis
>Dominus Factionis Russatae
>Latinista, Classicus Philologus
>
>
>---------------------------------
>
>---------------------------------
>L'email della prossima generazione? Puoi averla con la nuova Yahoo! Mail
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

M. Valerius Potitus omnibus SPD.

Salvete, omnes.

There has been some discussion here about plebiscites and the
constitution. But, as I reviewed the various iterations of the
Constitution, I found an interesting point: the Constitution does not
state that Pontifices hold their position for life.

In the original Constitution, Article VI (Public Religious
Institutions), read in part, "Pontifices shall ordinarily serve their
term for life..." This statement was dropped in the second
Constitution, and has never been added back, to the best of my knowledge.

Valete,
Potitus

Fl. Galerius Aurelianus T. Iulio Nero Marca Hortensia Maior sal.

I spend about two hours last night studying up on Roman law and the powers
of the plebeian assembly. As of 339 BCE, there seems to have been a legal
decision that a plebiscita could be binding on the state as a whole even without
the input of the patricians or allies. Also, while I am sworn to protect
the letter and spirit of the NR Constitution, there is nothing in that document
that would prevent it from being changed by a Senatus Consultum or a
plebiscita.

As such, I extend my apologies to you both and also to the rest of Nova Roma
for my initial stand point. The Constitution could be changed to allow Nova
Roma to replace the Pontifex Maximus with another more active candidate but
I would recommend that the choice be drawn from the existing NR members who
have been active in the sacred colleges and who have shown that they are
active. Furthermore, I would beg the Senate and People to choose a someone who
has the ability to get along with others, is active in the Religio, and who is
willing to make use of resources outside of the CP to advance the Pax Deorum.

Valete.



**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest
products.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Palladi,

deciusiunius <bcatfd@...> writes:

> Salve Marine, (happy belated Marine Corps Birthday)

Thank you. The same to you and a heartfelt 'Semper Fi.'

You asked:

> What would the
> dictator do or consuls acting under the SCU do?

If the enabling legislation to create either a dictator or an SCU
could pass the senate, the dictator or the consuls acting under the
SCU could impose reforms on the Collegium Pontificum. Of course even
discussing this means the more Taliban-like members of the Collegium
Pontificum are going to start muttering about the blasphemy decretum
and threatening anybody who presumes to govern them with pontifical
censure.

> Modianus screaming he can't reach Cassius and demanding reform is not
> a call for change.

No, not by itself it isn't. But I certainly understand why Modianus
is frustrated. As a senatorial observer of the CP, I know it has
accomplished diddly divided by squat over the past year. As a lictor
of the Comitia Curiata I know the Pontifex Maximus didn't even convene
us to enact a lex de imperio for the current year's magistrates. We
have a small handfull (in a three-fingered hand) of active people in
the CP who are trying to do the right thing and be active. Marcus
Cassius isn't the entire problem, but he's certainly a big part of the
problem. The deeper problem is that there's gridlock in the CP
between people of very different opinions, and nobody is at all
willing to compromise.

The fundamental problem here is that the CP is a law unto itself in
Nova Roma. The Senate doesn't have oversight of religious matters as
it had in antiquity, and thus there's no power (save for the
extraordinary measures of SCU or dictator) that can break the deadlock.

You know that I'm no fan of either dictators or SCUs. Both represent
awful things that hastened the demise of the old republic. But I'm
about convinced that we've gotten ourselves so boxed in with problems
of our own creation that those extraordinary solutions are the only
ones left to us.

Vale,

CN-EQVIT-MARINVS

Salve Callidus,

No citizen here is asking for a blank check. What the majority of the citizens who follow the Religio are asking for is change in the religio. This topic is not to go past the Collegium and into the Senate, the problem will stay within the Collegium. So to talk about "blind revolution" would mean to overthrow the current administration, rip up the Constitution, reform the government and collegium, and appoint new citizens to the post of those that were dismissed from the overthrown government. I am asking for none of this but only a reform in the religio. Whether you follow the religio or not, I am not sure of, shouldnt matter how you feel about the topic. The point is that most of the people notice there is a problem in the Collegium and the Collegium does nothing about it. Check the links and see for yourself. I have been a citizen for almost a year now and NONE of those links have been updated with new information, which is total disrespect to those who need guidance
in the religio. We have been and feel abandoned. This is not to be confused with some kind of "bolshevik uprising," that is going a bit too far looking into things. You are misunderstanding my actions here. I am not chanting "Reform the Religio" as a way for others to come up with a solution, we all need to support each other and realize there are problems with the Collegium. But if some say right away nothing can be done so forget about the idea, then I think that is completely wrong. People in higher positions have the power to push forth with reform, so they should do so for the citizens who have been abandoned religiously. Reform in the Religio would accomplish many things. The citizens that follow the religio would feel complete if the priests who were appointed there positions actually do there task in fulfilling the peoples need for information. But if we have no help, religiously, then what is there left for the citizens who worship the Gods????

Reform the Religio!!!
Lucius Iulius Regulus

os390account <Velaki@...> wrote:
Salvete,

> We need all the support we can get for total Reform.

A blank check? I think not. Outline in excruciating detail for me
the goals, process, and means of such a reform, and then I might
consider it. I don't think any citizen wants blind revolution, yes?

> ALL citizens must be heard so that those who doubt the power of

the citizenry can realize that Reform is needed. CITIZENS POST NOW!!!

How...bolshevik. The means of production in the hands of the
prolateriat? Or perhaps this is more akin to a cultural purge and
great leap forward?

> Reform the Religio!!!!

Mock Che, are you simply chanting this as a call for OTHERS to come
up with a solution? As I said above, what should this reform
accomplish? Then come up with a plan how to implement it.

Valete,
Q. Valerius Callidus






---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Marinus,

I also agree that everything is basically at a stand still. Which is exactly why I chose to start off this topic, no one was paying attention and no one cared before. Obviously, there is a way to fix this problem so senators should talk to each other and us so that we can have reform in the religio. I can understand why no one would want a dictator but at the same time choosing the correct person to take this position should be chosen carefully. That person should have explained to them the seriousness of the position and the reasons why they are appointed dictator. To reform the religio. Some one who is intelligent and has the interest of the people at heart. I am sure there is someone out there who would stand out above the rest and put an end to these issues.

Reform the Religio!!!
Lucius Iulius Regulus

Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@...> wrote:
Salve Palladi,

deciusiunius <bcatfd@...> writes:

> Salve Marine, (happy belated Marine Corps Birthday)

Thank you. The same to you and a heartfelt 'Semper Fi.'

You asked:

> What would the
> dictator do or consuls acting under the SCU do?

If the enabling legislation to create either a dictator or an SCU
could pass the senate, the dictator or the consuls acting under the
SCU could impose reforms on the Collegium Pontificum. Of course even
discussing this means the more Taliban-like members of the Collegium
Pontificum are going to start muttering about the blasphemy decretum
and threatening anybody who presumes to govern them with pontifical
censure.

> Modianus screaming he can't reach Cassius and demanding reform is not
> a call for change.

No, not by itself it isn't. But I certainly understand why Modianus
is frustrated. As a senatorial observer of the CP, I know it has
accomplished diddly divided by squat over the past year. As a lictor
of the Comitia Curiata I know the Pontifex Maximus didn't even convene
us to enact a lex de imperio for the current year's magistrates. We
have a small handfull (in a three-fingered hand) of active people in
the CP who are trying to do the right thing and be active. Marcus
Cassius isn't the entire problem, but he's certainly a big part of the
problem. The deeper problem is that there's gridlock in the CP
between people of very different opinions, and nobody is at all
willing to compromise.

The fundamental problem here is that the CP is a law unto itself in
Nova Roma. The Senate doesn't have oversight of religious matters as
it had in antiquity, and thus there's no power (save for the
extraordinary measures of SCU or dictator) that can break the deadlock.

You know that I'm no fan of either dictators or SCUs. Both represent
awful things that hastened the demise of the old republic. But I'm
about convinced that we've gotten ourselves so boxed in with problems
of our own creation that those extraordinary solutions are the only
ones left to us.

Vale,

CN-EQVIT-MARINVS





---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

C. Popillius laenas SPD.

>>How on earth? The Constitution says that ONLY a law passed by the

Comitia CENTURIATA my alter the Constitution. A plebistitum no.
Indeed, as you've said, the Constitution is silent about the power of
the plebiscitum, bit it's not silent about what can alter the
Constitution. A lex of the Comitia Centuriata can alter it -- or a
dictator.<<


This is, of course, correct as written in black and white within the
Constitution itself. No plebicite can alter the Constitution, only a
vote of the Comitia Centuriata that must then be approved by the
Senate. The procedure for altering the Constitution is onerous and was
intended to be so to ensure that chnages to our supreme governing
document were well thought out.

Valete.

C. Aemilius Crassus omnibus SPD,

Does anyone know if the irc of NR is working? I’m asking this because I have been trying to connect to it, already using two different irc clients, and so far I haven’t been able to connect to the server.

Since I never used a chat client before it is probably my fault but I would like to rule out first the possibility of the problem being with the server.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Di vos incolumes custodiant.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
C. AEMILIVS CRASSVS
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you
with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ

Salve Regule,

Lucius Iulius Regulus writes:

> Salve Marinus,
>
> I also agree that everything is basically at a stand still.

I wish you'd appreciate that it's not because nobody cares, or
everybody's given up. I have great hopes for next year's consulship,
but even those consuls are going to be limited by the way the
Collegium Pontificum has locked in their privileged status in Nova
Roma. Right now we have one consul who's interested in getting things
fixed, but has a problem in that his past practices have gained him a
number of opponents in the Senate. The other consul has been largely
absent for most of the year.

> Which is exactly why I chose to start off this topic, no one was
> paying attention and no one cared before.

That's a pretty strong claim you're making, and I'll tell you straight
out that I find it unwarranted and insulting to all the people who've
been working to reform the Religio for years now. You've never gotten
a private e-mail from the CP saying that they're considering issuing a
decretum against you for blasphemy. That sort of thing can get one
effectively kicked out of Nova Roma and unable to hold any office.
You have to realize that we are dealing with ruthless people who will
hold onto the power they have at any cost. Push come to shove,
they'll force the dissolution of the corporation, at which point all
the money in our accounts will go the Cassi. I'm sure they'd like
that gift, even if they did have to pay taxes on it.

> Obviously, there is a way to fix this problem so senators should
> talk to each other and us so that we can have reform in the religio.

Your enthusiasm is to be commended. But do you really think you're
the first person who's ever thought of this?

> I can understand why no one would want a dictator but at the same
> time choosing the correct person to take this position should be
> chosen carefully. That person should have explained to them the
> seriousness of the position and the reasons why they are appointed
> dictator.

We had a dictator once. Look in the annals of Nova Roma for the
history of the Vedian dictatorship. Then look at what it got us.
Among other things it got us the inflexible Constitution we have now.
I think a dictatorship would create more problems than it would solve.

Vale,

CN-EQVIT-MARINVS

Fl. Galerius Aurelianus S.P.D.

I need firm committments from those wishing to attend the Conventus
in B'ham, AL on Jan. 19-20, 2008 by no later than Sunday, Dec. 16,
2007.

I need your name, contact information, and whether you are willing
to participate in civilian or military demonstration if I can
arrange it with the museum.

It would also be good if you would make your reservation with the
Motel 6 by 12/16/07. I will be reserving two rooms to insure those
who cannot afford to reserve one for themselves, will have a place
to sleep.

I will be leaving Nashville, TN early Saturday morning on Jan. 19.
I have all the riders that I can take now. If you need help to
arrange a ride and need my services to help coordinate it, please
let me know.

Valete.

Commitments for the Conventus in B'ham, AL on Jan.19-20, 2008

Fl. Galerius Aurelianus S.P.D.

I need firm committments from those wishing to attend the Conventus
in B'ham, AL on Jan. 19-20, 2008 by no later than Sunday, Dec. 16,
2007.

I need your name, contact information, and whether you are willing
to participate in civilian or military demonstration if I can
arrange it with the museum.

It would also be good if you would make your reservation with the
Motel 6 by 12/16/07. I will be reserving two rooms to insure those
who cannot afford to reserve one for themselves, will have a place
to sleep.

I will be leaving Nashville, TN early Saturday morning on Jan. 19.
I have all the riders that I can take now. If you need help to
arrange a ride and need my services to help coordinate it, please
let me know.

Valete.

Salve!
Titus Flavius Aquila wrote:
"The religious leaders (CP) are here to serve the eternal gods and the people of Nova Roma.
This is my firm conviction !
I do not think that we the plebeians need to march out of Nova Roma as did our ancestors in Roma Antiqua
to get our rights pursued, or ?
Valete optime
Titus Flavius Aquila
Tribunus Plebis designatus"
May be we should rebuild SPQR in Roma and forget Roma "made in Maine" or in China...
Vale
ACC

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Marinus,

When I say that no one cared before I should have been more specific, so I do apologize if I have offended anyone who has worked hard for the citizens, so again Marinus I thank you for pointing out where I might have been misunderstood. What I meant was that some in the Collegium didnt worry or care before about our issues. I do have much respect for those who have tried or are still trying to change things in Nova Roma. Be assured that I do not believe I am the one who started the issue of reforming the religio what I meant was that its been a while since anyone had mentioned anything about it in the ML, so I again apologize for being misunderstood. Please be assured citizens that I am not here to put down accomplishments of others that have been in the past, in the present or any of those that are in progress now.

Reform the Religio!!!
Lucius Iulius Regulus

Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@...> wrote:
Salve Regule,

Lucius Iulius Regulus writes:

> Salve Marinus,
>
> I also agree that everything is basically at a stand still.

I wish you'd appreciate that it's not because nobody cares, or
everybody's given up. I have great hopes for next year's consulship,
but even those consuls are going to be limited by the way the
Collegium Pontificum has locked in their privileged status in Nova
Roma. Right now we have one consul who's interested in getting things
fixed, but has a problem in that his past practices have gained him a
number of opponents in the Senate. The other consul has been largely
absent for most of the year.

> Which is exactly why I chose to start off this topic, no one was
> paying attention and no one cared before.

That's a pretty strong claim you're making, and I'll tell you straight
out that I find it unwarranted and insulting to all the people who've
been working to reform the Religio for years now. You've never gotten
a private e-mail from the CP saying that they're considering issuing a
decretum against you for blasphemy. That sort of thing can get one
effectively kicked out of Nova Roma and unable to hold any office.
You have to realize that we are dealing with ruthless people who will
hold onto the power they have at any cost. Push come to shove,
they'll force the dissolution of the corporation, at which point all
the money in our accounts will go the Cassi. I'm sure they'd like
that gift, even if they did have to pay taxes on it.

> Obviously, there is a way to fix this problem so senators should
> talk to each other and us so that we can have reform in the religio.

Your enthusiasm is to be commended. But do you really think you're
the first person who's ever thought of this?

> I can understand why no one would want a dictator but at the same
> time choosing the correct person to take this position should be
> chosen carefully. That person should have explained to them the
> seriousness of the position and the reasons why they are appointed
> dictator.

We had a dictator once. Look in the annals of Nova Roma for the
history of the Vedian dictatorship. Then look at what it got us.
Among other things it got us the inflexible Constitution we have now.
I think a dictatorship would create more problems than it would solve.

Vale,

CN-EQVIT-MARINVS





---------------------------------
Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

We are not virtual people. We function as NR people outside of the internet.
If you want to issue something, issue a ball cap.....at least it would be useful
Respectfully
T. A. Germanicus

PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@... wrote:
The purpose of a membership/citizenship card is to provide a physical sign
that Nova Roma has taken a step to out of the internet NR world into the real
world that we all inhabit. It demonstrates that our organization is able to
give the citizens of our organization something tangible to have that ties
them to one another. Some individuals have the ability to consider themselves
part of Nova Roma without a tangible object but others need to have some
physical object or be able to attend an event/meeting/conventus so that they may
interact with others. It is the nature of human beings that most of us
require the social and intellectual intercourse with one another so as to
reinforce the feeling of belonging to a group of like-minded people.

In the real world, we know that we are part of a country by the daily use of
our currency, seeing our flag being flown, speaking our native language, and
enjoying the day-to-day intercourse with other individuals with who we are
bound by national, regional, local, social, and spiritual ties.

In Nova Roma, we are just beginning to be able to do this by displaying the
NR flag or emblem, have NR currency, put up an NR calendar, and (in some
areas) attending NR events where we can enjoy the normal intercourse and exchange
that we enjoy in our everyday lives.

Of course, this is just my opinion.

Fl. Galerius Aurelianus



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products.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




Yahoo! Groups Links






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve,

I had the same problem.


Vale,

Annia Minucia Marcella



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gaius Aemilius Crassus
<septemtrionis@...> wrote:

>
> C. Aemilius Crassus omnibus SPD,
>
> Does anyone know if the irc of NR is working? I’m asking this

because I have been trying to connect to it, already using two
different irc clients, and so far I haven’t been able to connect to
the server.

>
> Since I never used a chat client before it is probably my fault but

I would like to rule out first the possibility of the problem being
with the server.

>
> Thanks in advance for any help.
>
> Di vos incolumes custodiant.
>
>
>

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> C. AEMILIVS CRASSVS
>

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>
>
>

____________________________________________________________________________________

> Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you
> with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now.

http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ

>

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@...>
wrote:

>

Salve Gnaeus Equitius Marinus

Reporting for duty
Marcus Cornelius Felix
Sacerdos Templi Mercurius
Sacerdotus Provincia America Boreoccidentalis

I quit the CP years also cus of this fight if you go back to the NR
yahoo Religio group Years ago( like 6 or 7) we had this fight for
about 3 months no-one in the CP has gone over to the other side and
both side do not have the votes to win.
i am with the Reform the Religio !! people ,but the CP logjam is
killing the Religio .
I had plans to do things in portland oregon( left coast usa)
but i needeed info/ok from NR and the OK from CP to do it I have
tryed for all the years that i have in NR ( my civi # is 209)

to do some of the things i need to do here I need some things to give
on the state forms i would have to file with the state of oregon

i need that ok/info BEFORE i can go and ask for money in NR from none
NR people here at a fair ( trade, put on by the temple i head in
NR)have a stall at the PDX ROSE FEST etc.
see the following mesg listed before for this newsgroup aboyt this .

mesg # 15459
mesg # 15438

> Salve Palladi,
>
> deciusiunius <bcatfd@...> writes:
>
> > Salve Marine, (happy belated Marine Corps Birthday)
>
> Thank you. The same to you and a heartfelt 'Semper Fi.'
>
> You asked:
>
> > What would the
> > dictator do or consuls acting under the SCU do?
>
> If the enabling legislation to create either a dictator or an SCU
> could pass the senate, the dictator or the consuls acting under the
> SCU could impose reforms on the Collegium Pontificum. Of course even
> discussing this means the more Taliban-like members of the Collegium
> Pontificum are going to start muttering about the blasphemy decretum
> and threatening anybody who presumes to govern them with pontifical
> censure.
>
> > Modianus screaming he can't reach Cassius and demanding reform is not
> > a call for change.
>
> No, not by itself it isn't. But I certainly understand why Modianus
> is frustrated. As a senatorial observer of the CP, I know it has
> accomplished diddly divided by squat over the past year. As a lictor
> of the Comitia Curiata I know the Pontifex Maximus didn't even convene
> us to enact a lex de imperio for the current year's magistrates. We
> have a small handfull (in a three-fingered hand) of active people in
> the CP who are trying to do the right thing and be active. Marcus
> Cassius isn't the entire problem, but he's certainly a big part of the
> problem. The deeper problem is that there's gridlock in the CP
> between people of very different opinions, and nobody is at all
> willing to compromise.
>
> The fundamental problem here is that the CP is a law unto itself in
> Nova Roma. The Senate doesn't have oversight of religious matters as
> it had in antiquity, and thus there's no power (save for the
> extraordinary measures of SCU or dictator) that can break the deadlock.
>
> You know that I'm no fan of either dictators or SCUs. Both represent
> awful things that hastened the demise of the old republic. But I'm
> about convinced that we've gotten ourselves so boxed in with problems
> of our own creation that those extraordinary solutions are the only
> ones left to us.
>
> Vale,
>
> CN-EQVIT-MARINVS
>

Salve Minucia Marcella,

Thanks for your reply. I probably will wait to someone confirm that the Nova Roma IRC is back working before I try to access it again.

Di te incolumem custodiant.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
C. AEMILIVS CRASSVS
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



----- Original Message ----
From: Annia Minucia Marcella <annia@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 5:33:21 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: IRC of Nova Roma.

Salve,

I had the same problem.

Vale,

Annia Minucia Marcella

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, Gaius Aemilius Crassus
<septemtrionis@ ...> wrote:

>
> C. Aemilius Crassus omnibus SPD,
>
> Does anyone know if the irc of NR is working? I���m asking this

because I have been trying to connect to it, already using two
different irc clients, and so far I haven���t been able to connect to
the server.

>
> Since I never used a chat client before it is probably my fault but

I would like to rule out first the possibility of the problem being
with the server.

>
> Thanks in advance for any help.
>
> Di vos incolumes custodiant.
>
>
>

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> C. AEMILIVS CRASSVS
>

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

>
>
>

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

> Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you
> with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now.

http://mobile. yahoo.com/ sports;_ylt= At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G 1SQtBI7ntAcJ

>

____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you
with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete,SPQR

If in fact there is no other alternative under the Constitution for change of that instrument than a popular vote of the Comitia Centuriata, and the passage of a law allowing any said changes then the approval of the Senate, or the institution of a Dictatorship .How in fact may the institution of Dictatorship be advanced, and what precedence under Nova Roman law can we reflect upon in taking such a course of action,and at what point of this controversy may we look forward to such redress of our grievences other than a Dictatorship, for that period which will allow such changes be implemented?

Appius Galerius Aurelianus
Semper Fidelis!

gaiuspopilliuslaenas <gaiuspopillius@...> wrote:
C. Popillius laenas SPD.

>>How on earth? The Constitution says that ONLY a law passed by the

Comitia CENTURIATA my alter the Constitution. A plebistitum no.
Indeed, as you've said, the Constitution is silent about the power of
the plebiscitum, bit it's not silent about what can alter the
Constitution. A lex of the Comitia Centuriata can alter it -- or a
dictator.<<

This is, of course, correct as written in black and white within the
Constitution itself. No plebicite can alter the Constitution, only a
vote of the Comitia Centuriata that must then be approved by the
Senate. The procedure for altering the Constitution is onerous and was
intended to be so to ensure that chnages to our supreme governing
document were well thought out.

Valete.






---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Citizen,

I wonder why so many projects that are headed by either priest or any other citizen always wind up stalled. If citizens are trying to progress this society why are they being help back for so long or even sometimes being forgotten about. These are the kinds of situations that need to end if we want to succeed as a legitimate society. Everyone must realize the needs of the religious citizens whether you practice the Religio, Catholicism, Judaism, Buddhism, any other religion, or no religion at all. Divided we fail.

Reform the Religio!!!
Lucius Iulius Regulus

vallenporter <vallenporter@...> wrote:
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@...>
wrote:

>

Salve Gnaeus Equitius Marinus

Reporting for duty
Marcus Cornelius Felix
Sacerdos Templi Mercurius
Sacerdotus Provincia America Boreoccidentalis

I quit the CP years also cus of this fight if you go back to the NR
yahoo Religio group Years ago( like 6 or 7) we had this fight for
about 3 months no-one in the CP has gone over to the other side and
both side do not have the votes to win.
i am with the Reform the Religio !! people ,but the CP logjam is
killing the Religio .
I had plans to do things in portland oregon( left coast usa)
but i needeed info/ok from NR and the OK from CP to do it I have
tryed for all the years that i have in NR ( my civi # is 209)

to do some of the things i need to do here I need some things to give
on the state forms i would have to file with the state of oregon

i need that ok/info BEFORE i can go and ask for money in NR from none
NR people here at a fair ( trade, put on by the temple i head in
NR)have a stall at the PDX ROSE FEST etc.
see the following mesg listed before for this newsgroup aboyt this .

mesg # 15459
mesg # 15438

> Salve Palladi,
>
> deciusiunius <bcatfd@...> writes:
>
> > Salve Marine, (happy belated Marine Corps Birthday)
>
> Thank you. The same to you and a heartfelt 'Semper Fi.'
>
> You asked:
>
> > What would the
> > dictator do or consuls acting under the SCU do?
>
> If the enabling legislation to create either a dictator or an SCU
> could pass the senate, the dictator or the consuls acting under the
> SCU could impose reforms on the Collegium Pontificum. Of course even
> discussing this means the more Taliban-like members of the Collegium
> Pontificum are going to start muttering about the blasphemy decretum
> and threatening anybody who presumes to govern them with pontifical
> censure.
>
> > Modianus screaming he can't reach Cassius and demanding reform is not
> > a call for change.
>
> No, not by itself it isn't. But I certainly understand why Modianus
> is frustrated. As a senatorial observer of the CP, I know it has
> accomplished diddly divided by squat over the past year. As a lictor
> of the Comitia Curiata I know the Pontifex Maximus didn't even convene
> us to enact a lex de imperio for the current year's magistrates. We
> have a small handfull (in a three-fingered hand) of active people in
> the CP who are trying to do the right thing and be active. Marcus
> Cassius isn't the entire problem, but he's certainly a big part of the
> problem. The deeper problem is that there's gridlock in the CP
> between people of very different opinions, and nobody is at all
> willing to compromise.
>
> The fundamental problem here is that the CP is a law unto itself in
> Nova Roma. The Senate doesn't have oversight of religious matters as
> it had in antiquity, and thus there's no power (save for the
> extraordinary measures of SCU or dictator) that can break the deadlock.
>
> You know that I'm no fan of either dictators or SCUs. Both represent
> awful things that hastened the demise of the old republic. But I'm
> about convinced that we've gotten ourselves so boxed in with problems
> of our own creation that those extraordinary solutions are the only
> ones left to us.
>
> Vale,
>
> CN-EQVIT-MARINVS
>

---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

M. Hortensia C. Popillio Laenatis quiritibus spd;
these are trying times, where the few do not care for the whole..

actually we can have a plebiscite. The plebeians could vote
in a Lex Domitia for their own plebeian pontifices and augurs.

We woudn't be altering the current dysfunctional CP, just
adding our own.

the Lex Ogulnia and Lex Domitia are the laws that gave Romans this
power when they were oppressed. I think this may be a way to escape
this dreadful deadlock.
bene valete
Marca Hortensia Maior

>
> C. Popillius laenas SPD.
>
> >>How on earth? The Constitution says that ONLY a law passed by

the

> Comitia CENTURIATA my alter the Constitution. A plebistitum no.
> Indeed, as you've said, the Constitution is silent about the power

of

> the plebiscitum, bit it's not silent about what can alter the
> Constitution. A lex of the Comitia Centuriata can alter it -- or a
> dictator.<<
>
>
> This is, of course, correct as written in black and white within

the

> Constitution itself. No plebicite can alter the Constitution,

only a

> vote of the Comitia Centuriata that must then be approved by the
> Senate. The procedure for altering the Constitution is onerous

and was

> intended to be so to ensure that chnages to our supreme governing
> document were well thought out.
>
> Valete.
>

M. Hortensia Fl. Galerio;
your gracious apology only increases your dignitas. And I
apologize Aureliane for not adding the Leges Ogulnia, Hortensia and
Domitia to the NRwiki.

As you have read tirelessly. We certainly may change it with a
plebiscite. It's very Roman.
bene vale in pacem deorum
Marca Hortensia Maior

>
> I spend about two hours last night studying up on Roman law and

the powers

> of the plebeian assembly. As of 339 BCE, there seems to have been

a legal

> decision that a plebiscita could be binding on the state as a

whole even without

> the input of the patricians or allies. Also, while I am sworn to

protect

> the letter and spirit of the NR Constitution, there is nothing in

that document

> that would prevent it from being changed by a Senatus Consultum

or a

> plebiscita.
>
> As such, I extend my apologies to you both and also to the rest of

Nova Roma

> for my initial stand point. The Constitution could be changed to

allow Nova

> Roma to replace the Pontifex Maximus with another more active

candidate but

> I would recommend that the choice be drawn from the existing NR

members who

> have been active in the sacred colleges and who have shown that

they are

> active. Furthermore, I would beg the Senate and People to choose

a someone who

> has the ability to get along with others, is active in the

Religio, and who is

> willing to make use of resources outside of the CP to advance the

Pax Deorum.

>
> Valete.
>
>
>
> **************************************Check out AOL's list of

2007's hottest

> products.
> (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?

NCID=aoltop00030000000001)

>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Aurelianus Cato sal.

Don't be silly. The majority of the members of Nova Roma are
provincials and we have a very small presence in both Italia and
Roma. There must be some significant problems with MTR or all of
the NR citizens in Italia would be members of that group exclusively.

Nova Roma can only be changed by active and constructive
participation of its citizens. You have done some good work there
and I expect that you will do more in the future. I have seen some
good ideas expressed by citizens that I have never seen a post from
before. If they can stick to the thoughts and plans that they have
posted these last two days, it is likely that there will be some
changes here.

Besides, didn't you just run for a magistracy? If so, once you have
taken your oath of office you are bound by strong personal ties to
do whatever you can (under the Constitution and leges) to improve
and advance the cause of Nova Roma.

I would expect nothing less from you.

Vale.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Claudio Guzzo"
<claudio.guzzo@...> wrote:

>
> Salve!
> Titus Flavius Aquila wrote:
> "The religious leaders (CP) are here to serve the eternal gods and

the people of Nova Roma.

> This is my firm conviction !
> I do not think that we the plebeians need to march out of Nova

Roma as did our ancestors in Roma Antiqua

> to get our rights pursued, or ?
> Valete optime
> Titus Flavius Aquila
> Tribunus Plebis designatus"
> May be we should rebuild SPQR in Roma and forget Roma "made in

Maine" or in China...

> Vale
> ACC
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Salve Maior,

I agree with this idea. If in fact we can have a plebiscite and vote in a Lex Domitia to solve these issues then I think I would agree to one. But what hurts us more, I think, is the fact that we are just adding our own and not fixing the issues in the current Collegium. We would just be dividing ourselves, and division is not a good idea especially in the Religio. The religio calls for unity amongst us so that we may worship the Gods together, not have our own different sects with different rules. So we need to figure out a way in which reform can bring us all together.

Reform the Religio!!!
Lucius Iulius Regulus



Maior <rory12001@...> wrote:
M. Hortensia C. Popillio Laenatis quiritibus spd;
these are trying times, where the few do not care for the whole..

actually we can have a plebiscite. The plebeians could vote
in a Lex Domitia for their own plebeian pontifices and augurs.

We woudn't be altering the current dysfunctional CP, just
adding our own.

the Lex Ogulnia and Lex Domitia are the laws that gave Romans this
power when they were oppressed. I think this may be a way to escape
this dreadful deadlock.
bene valete
Marca Hortensia Maior

>
> C. Popillius laenas SPD.
>
> >>How on earth? The Constitution says that ONLY a law passed by

the

> Comitia CENTURIATA my alter the Constitution. A plebistitum no.
> Indeed, as you've said, the Constitution is silent about the power

of

> the plebiscitum, bit it's not silent about what can alter the
> Constitution. A lex of the Comitia Centuriata can alter it -- or a
> dictator.<<
>
>
> This is, of course, correct as written in black and white within

the

> Constitution itself. No plebicite can alter the Constitution,

only a

> vote of the Comitia Centuriata that must then be approved by the
> Senate. The procedure for altering the Constitution is onerous

and was

> intended to be so to ensure that chnages to our supreme governing
> document were well thought out.
>
> Valete.
>

---------------------------------
Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

T.Flavius Aquila Luci Iuli Regulo salutem plurimam dicit

Salve Regulus,

I want to salute you for your passion and strength ,keep up your spirit for the Reform of the Religio.

I am now one year with Nova Roma and I would like to see things change to the better. That´s why I have run
for the Tribunus Plebis position.I am confident, if we keep up the pressure we will finally succeed. I know many
citizens who are with us, even in the highest magistrate ranks and in the senate. We have to show them our
support in changing the necessary and to gather further support by the people of Nova Roma . I think there has never
been a better time and chance for change ! We are ready for the change, Nova Roma is ready for the change, let´s do it.


Personally I do not mind if it will be done via a senate decision, a senatus consultum ultimum , a dictator or via a plebiscite
as long as it is been done. But I am also not afraid to go new ways if necessary to pursue our struggle for reform, in the interest
of our republic and the interest of our people.


Concerning the Temple for the Gods in Rome project, I have gathered a group of supporters within Nova Roma around me
who support the project. There are very fine people in this group with devotion, spirit, ideas and the necessary strength.
I would like to invite you Lucius Iulius Regulus to join the project team as well if you would like to.

The current status in a nutshell. The draft for the project proposal is currently being updated and it will be presented to the
Senate in Spring of 2761 AUC. We have contacted various Italian Pagan groups and asked for their support and we do have received
the support of MTR, Movimento Tradizionale Romana. I have been invited to give a short presentation to MTR when
they will have their annual meeting in Roma in Spring of 2761 AUC for the birthday of our Mater Roma . And I have been asked
by our Italian citizens to provide them with an presentation. I am very grateful for these opportunities.

We are investigating into three possibilities:
1) retrocession of an existing ancient temple in Roma , or at least to receive the right to perform public rites there
2) buy land in Roma for a templum and start with a wooden temple (like our ancestors had)
3) buy land nearby Roma for a grove, which might later develop in a templum

The next step should see establishing a sodalitas for our project.

There is a lot of work to be done and we need all the support we can get. So I call on all citizens to support our project and to provide
our Roman Gods with a Temple for their worship, for the first time in 1700 years. There 1000 or more churches in Rome, I think that the
Roman Gods deserve at least one temple in their urbs . I am absolutely confident, there will be a temple for the eternal Roman Gods in the near
future.

Vale optime
Titus Flavius Aquila
Scriba Censoris CFBM
Tribunus Plebis designatus


----- Ursprüngliche Mail ----
Von: Michael Echevarria <luciusjul25@...>
An: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Gesendet: Freitag, den 30. November 2007, 19:19:15 Uhr
Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Religion

Salve Citizen,

I wonder why so many projects that are headed by either priest or any other citizen always wind up stalled. If citizens are trying to progress this society why are they being help back for so long or even sometimes being forgotten about. These are the kinds of situations that need to end if we want to succeed as a legitimate society. Everyone must realize the needs of the religious citizens whether you practice the Religio, Catholicism, Judaism, Buddhism, any other religion, or no religion at all. Divided we fail.

Reform the Religio!!!
Lucius Iulius Regulus

vallenporter <vallenporter@ yahoo.com> wrote:
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@...>
wrote:

>

Salve Gnaeus Equitius Marinus

Reporting for duty
Marcus Cornelius Felix
Sacerdos Templi Mercurius
Sacerdotus Provincia America Boreoccidentalis

I quit the CP years also cus of this fight if you go back to the NR
yahoo Religio group Years ago( like 6 or 7) we had this fight for
about 3 months no-one in the CP has gone over to the other side and
both side do not have the votes to win.
i am with the Reform the Religio !! people ,but the CP logjam is
killing the Religio .
I had plans to do things in portland oregon( left coast usa)
but i needeed info/ok from NR and the OK from CP to do it I have
tryed for all the years that i have in NR ( my civi # is 209)

to do some of the things i need to do here I need some things to give
on the state forms i would have to file with the state of oregon

i need that ok/info BEFORE i can go and ask for money in NR from none
NR people here at a fair ( trade, put on by the temple i head in
NR)have a stall at the PDX ROSE FEST etc.
see the following mesg listed before for this newsgroup aboyt this .

mesg # 15459
mesg # 15438

> Salve Palladi,
>
> deciusiunius <bcatfd@...> writes:
>
> > Salve Marine, (happy belated Marine Corps Birthday)
>
> Thank you. The same to you and a heartfelt 'Semper Fi.'
>
> You asked:
>
> > What would the
> > dictator do or consuls acting under the SCU do?
>
> If the enabling legislation to create either a dictator or an SCU
> could pass the senate, the dictator or the consuls acting under the
> SCU could impose reforms on the Collegium Pontificum. Of course even
> discussing this means the more Taliban-like members of the Collegium
> Pontificum are going to start muttering about the blasphemy decretum
> and threatening anybody who presumes to govern them with pontifical
> censure.
>
> > Modianus screaming he can't reach Cassius and demanding reform is not
> > a call for change.
>
> No, not by itself it isn't. But I certainly understand why Modianus
> is frustrated. As a senatorial observer of the CP, I know it has
> accomplished diddly divided by squat over the past year. As a lictor
> of the Comitia Curiata I know the Pontifex Maximus didn't even convene
> us to enact a lex de imperio for the current year's magistrates. We
> have a small handfull (in a three-fingered hand) of active people in
> the CP who are trying to do the right thing and be active. Marcus
> Cassius isn't the entire problem, but he's certainly a big part of the
> problem. The deeper problem is that there's gridlock in the CP
> between people of very different opinions, and nobody is at all
> willing to compromise.
>
> The fundamental problem here is that the CP is a law unto itself in
> Nova Roma. The Senate doesn't have oversight of religious matters as
> it had in antiquity, and thus there's no power (save for the
> extraordinary measures of SCU or dictator) that can break the deadlock.
>
> You know that I'm no fan of either dictators or SCUs. Both represent
> awful things that hastened the demise of the old republic. But I'm
> about convinced that we've gotten ourselves so boxed in with problems
> of our own creation that those extraordinary solutions are the only
> ones left to us.
>
> Vale,
>
> CN-EQVIT-MARINVS
>

------------ --------- --------- ---
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





Machen Sie Yahoo! zu Ihrer Startseite. Los geht's:
http://de.yahoo.com/set

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

C. Popillius Laenas M. Hortensio Maior SPD

>>actually we can have a plebiscite. The plebeians could vote
> in a Lex Domitia for their own plebeian pontifices and augurs.<<

CPL:
Perhaps that would be possible. You might even succeed in uniting
the CP long enough to overturn the law using the Consititutional
powers cited in 1c. below ;-)

As Marinus has pointed out, any thing as drastic as the
Plebs "suceeding" from the Religio Roma by such actions would
probably bring down the Republic. We have been close before. Indeed
there have been more than one spin off organizations with varing
degrees of success.

I am content to see what the new Consuls can achieve in the coming
year. Any attempt should begin with the CP itself, before more
agressive approaches such as succession, a dictator, or a SCU should
be considered.

Valete.



-------------------------------------------------

From the Constitution:

>>1. The collegium pontificum (college of pontiffs) shall be the

highest of the priestly collegia. It shall consist of the Pontifex
Maximus, fourteen Pontifices, twelve flamines, six Sacerdotes
Vestales, and the Rex and Regina Sacrorum. The collegium pontificum
shall appoint its own members. The collegium pontificum shall have
the following honors, powers, and responsibilities:

a. To control the calendar, and determine when the festivals and dies
fasti and dies nefasti shall occur, and what their effects shall be,
within the boundaries of the example of ancient Rome;

b. To have ritual responsibilities within the Religio Romana; and
general authority over the institutions, rites, rituals, and
priesthoods of the public Religio Romana;

c. To issue decreta (decrees) on matters relevant to the Religio
Romana and its own internal procedures (such decreta may not be
overruled by laws passed in the comitia or Senatus consultum). <<

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> M. Hortensia C. Popillio Laenatis quiritibus spd;
> these are trying times, where the few do not care for the whole..
>
> actually we can have a plebiscite. The plebeians could vote
> in a Lex Domitia for their own plebeian pontifices and augurs.
>
> We woudn't be altering the current dysfunctional CP, just
> adding our own.
>
> the Lex Ogulnia and Lex Domitia are the laws that gave Romans
this
> power when they were oppressed. I think this may be a way to escape
> this dreadful deadlock.
> bene valete
> Marca Hortensia Maior
>
> >
> > C. Popillius laenas SPD.
> >
> > >>How on earth? The Constitution says that ONLY a law passed by
> the
> > Comitia CENTURIATA my alter the Constitution. A plebistitum no.
> > Indeed, as you've said, the Constitution is silent about the
power
> of
> > the plebiscitum, bit it's not silent about what can alter the
> > Constitution. A lex of the Comitia Centuriata can alter it -- or
a
> > dictator.<<
> >
> >
> > This is, of course, correct as written in black and white within
> the
> > Constitution itself. No plebicite can alter the Constitution,
> only a
> > vote of the Comitia Centuriata that must then be approved by the
> > Senate. The procedure for altering the Constitution is onerous
> and was
> > intended to be so to ensure that chnages to our supreme governing
> > document were well thought out.
> >
> > Valete.
> >
>

salve Titus,

I wasn't in ML for a long time, but now i'm here.

I'm Italian (and live in Italy) and, if you want, I can give you
information about
burocracy, situation here and problems to solve for this project.
I am in contact with the members of MTR and I'm a member of the
Association Gentilitas
(the web is www.gentilitas.org , but for the moment is just in italian).
I know also the situation
of the Religio Romana in Italy, and I could give you information, if you
want.

If it's interesting for you and the group that work on the project, I
could help you for it.


Vale Optime in P.D.

Sempronia Solaria Messalina


Titus Flavius Aquila ha scritto:

>
>
> Concerning the Temple for the Gods in Rome project, I have gathered a
> group of supporters within Nova Roma around me
> who support the project. There are very fine people in this group with
> devotion, spirit, ideas and the necessary strength.
> I would like to invite you Lucius Iulius Regulus to join the project
> team as well if you would like to.
>
> The current status in a nutshell. The draft for the project proposal
> is currently being updated and it will be presented to the
> Senate in Spring of 2761 AUC. We have contacted various Italian Pagan
> groups and asked for their support and we do have received
> the support of MTR, Movimento Tradizionale Romana. I have been invited
> to give a short presentation to MTR when
> they will have their annual meeting in Roma in Spring of 2761 AUC for
> the birthday of our Mater Roma . And I have been asked
> by our Italian citizens to provide them with an presentation. I am
> very grateful for these opportunities.
>
> We are investigating into three possibilities:
> 1) retrocession of an existing ancient temple in Roma , or at least to
> receive the right to perform public rites there
> 2) buy land in Roma for a templum and start with a wooden temple (like
> our ancestors had)
> 3) buy land nearby Roma for a grove, which might later develop in a
> templum
>
> The next step should see establishing a sodalitas for our project.
>
> There is a lot of work to be done and we need all the support we can
> get. So I call on all citizens to support our project and to provide
> our Roman Gods with a Temple for their worship, for the first time in
> 1700 years. There 1000 or more churches in Rome, I think that the
> Roman Gods deserve at least one temple in their urbs . I am absolutely
> confident, there will be a temple for the eternal Roman Gods in the near
> future.
>
> Vale optime
> Titus Flavius Aquila
> Scriba Censoris CFBM
> Tribunus Plebis designatus
>
> ----- Ursprüngliche Mail ----
> Von: Michael Echevarria <luciusjul25@...
> <mailto:luciusjul25%40yahoo.com>>
> An: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>
> Gesendet: Freitag, den 30. November 2007, 19:19:15 Uhr
> Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Religion
>
> Salve Citizen,
>
> I wonder why so many projects that are headed by either priest or any
> other citizen always wind up stalled. If citizens are trying to
> progress this society why are they being help back for so long or even
> sometimes being forgotten about. These are the kinds of situations
> that need to end if we want to succeed as a legitimate society.
> Everyone must realize the needs of the religious citizens whether you
> practice the Religio, Catholicism, Judaism, Buddhism, any other
> religion, or no religion at all. Divided we fail.
>
> Reform the Religio!!!
> Lucius Iulius Regulus
>
> vallenporter <vallenporter@ yahoo.com> wrote:
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@...>
> wrote:
> >
>
> Salve Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
>
> Reporting for duty
> Marcus Cornelius Felix
> Sacerdos Templi Mercurius
> Sacerdotus Provincia America Boreoccidentalis
>
> I quit the CP years also cus of this fight if you go back to the NR
> yahoo Religio group Years ago( like 6 or 7) we had this fight for
> about 3 months no-one in the CP has gone over to the other side and
> both side do not have the votes to win.
> i am with the Reform the Religio !! people ,but the CP logjam is
> killing the Religio .
> I had plans to do things in portland oregon( left coast usa)
> but i needeed info/ok from NR and the OK from CP to do it I have
> tryed for all the years that i have in NR ( my civi # is 209)
>
> to do some of the things i need to do here I need some things to give
> on the state forms i would have to file with the state of oregon
>
> i need that ok/info BEFORE i can go and ask for money in NR from none
> NR people here at a fair ( trade, put on by the temple i head in
> NR)have a stall at the PDX ROSE FEST etc.
> see the following mesg listed before for this newsgroup aboyt this .
>
> mesg # 15459
> mesg # 15438
>
> > Salve Palladi,
> >
> > deciusiunius <bcatfd@...> writes:
> >
> > > Salve Marine, (happy belated Marine Corps Birthday)
> >
> > Thank you. The same to you and a heartfelt 'Semper Fi.'
> >
> > You asked:
> >
> > > What would the
> > > dictator do or consuls acting under the SCU do?
> >
> > If the enabling legislation to create either a dictator or an SCU
> > could pass the senate, the dictator or the consuls acting under the
> > SCU could impose reforms on the Collegium Pontificum. Of course even
> > discussing this means the more Taliban-like members of the Collegium
> > Pontificum are going to start muttering about the blasphemy decretum
> > and threatening anybody who presumes to govern them with pontifical
> > censure.
> >
> > > Modianus screaming he can't reach Cassius and demanding reform is not
> > > a call for change.
> >
> > No, not by itself it isn't. But I certainly understand why Modianus
> > is frustrated. As a senatorial observer of the CP, I know it has
> > accomplished diddly divided by squat over the past year. As a lictor
> > of the Comitia Curiata I know the Pontifex Maximus didn't even convene
> > us to enact a lex de imperio for the current year's magistrates. We
> > have a small handfull (in a three-fingered hand) of active people in
> > the CP who are trying to do the right thing and be active. Marcus
> > Cassius isn't the entire problem, but he's certainly a big part of the
> > problem. The deeper problem is that there's gridlock in the CP
> > between people of very different opinions, and nobody is at all
> > willing to compromise.
> >
> > The fundamental problem here is that the CP is a law unto itself in
> > Nova Roma. The Senate doesn't have oversight of religious matters as
> > it had in antiquity, and thus there's no power (save for the
> > extraordinary measures of SCU or dictator) that can break the deadlock.
> >
> > You know that I'm no fan of either dictators or SCUs. Both represent
> > awful things that hastened the demise of the old republic. But I'm
> > about convinced that we've gotten ourselves so boxed in with problems
> > of our own creation that those extraordinary solutions are the only
> > ones left to us.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > CN-EQVIT-MARINVS
> >
>
> ------------ --------- --------- ---
> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> Machen Sie Yahoo! zu Ihrer Startseite. Los geht's:
> http://de.yahoo.com/set <http://de.yahoo.com/set>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

qv. omn. spd.

I still have to disagree. Others here have pointed to specific wording of
the constitution where an amendment to it by a plebiscite would not be valid.
In my opinion, there are better routes to altering the constitutio. We must
remember that historically, the Romani did not have a constitutio, thus
appealing to history to change the constitution is fruitless.

If I am misinterpreting the constitution, then I will defer.

On 11/30/07, Maior <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> M. Hortensia Fl. Galerio;
> your gracious apology only increases your dignitas. And I
> apologize Aureliane for not adding the Leges Ogulnia, Hortensia and
> Domitia to the NRwiki.
>
> As you have read tirelessly. We certainly may change it with a
> plebiscite. It's very Roman.
> bene vale in pacem deorum
> Marca Hortensia Maior
>
> >
> > I spend about two hours last night studying up on Roman law and
> the powers
> > of the plebeian assembly. As of 339 BCE, there seems to have been
> a legal
> > decision that a plebiscita could be binding on the state as a
> whole even without
> > the input of the patricians or allies. Also, while I am sworn to
> protect
> > the letter and spirit of the NR Constitution, there is nothing in
> that document
> > that would prevent it from being changed by a Senatus Consultum
> or a
> > plebiscita.
> >
> > As such, I extend my apologies to you both and also to the rest of
> Nova Roma
> > for my initial stand point. The Constitution could be changed to
> allow Nova
> > Roma to replace the Pontifex Maximus with another more active
> candidate but
> > I would recommend that the choice be drawn from the existing NR
> members who
> > have been active in the sacred colleges and who have shown that
> they are
> > active. Furthermore, I would beg the Senate and People to choose
> a someone who
> > has the ability to get along with others, is active in the
> Religio, and who is
> > willing to make use of resources outside of the CP to advance the
> Pax Deorum.
> >
> > Valete.
> >
> >
> >
> > **************************************Check out AOL's list of
> 2007's hottest
> > products.
> > (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?
> NCID=aoltop00030000000001)
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Aquila,

I would like to thank you for salute and I in turn salute you as well for being one of the strongest supporters of this issue. I will definitely keep up my spirit for reform, for the Gods deserve it and so do our fine citizens. It is true as you say that the Gods now deserve a place where they can be worshipped publicly by the religious faithful. Whether it be in Roma herself, Asia, Africa, North and South America, as long as there are, in the future, places of public worship. Nothing inspires me more than to please the Gods and believe that it is where my passion comes from. I would like to also thank you for your invitation into the project team and most graciously accept it. Send to me all the information gathered on this wonderful project so I can also catch up with these other fine citizens apart of the project. All of those who are apart of the project I ask that you name yourselves so that you can show the religious faithful who you are so we can salute. We would
also ask that you show your support here for Reform the Religio. If, by any chance, Aquila contact those apart of the project to come here and show their support as well. As stated throughout this whole topic, all citizens are urged to show support for Reform the Religio. There are citizens, like Aquila, who are working for reform and ask that no citizen gives up hope. It can and will be done. All citizens please post on this topic and if you want reform let all hear you.

Reform the Religio!!!
Lucius Iulius Regulus

Titus Flavius Aquila <titus.aquila@...> wrote:
T.Flavius Aquila Luci Iuli Regulo salutem plurimam dicit

Salve Regulus,

I want to salute you for your passion and strength ,keep up your spirit for the Reform of the Religio.

I am now one year with Nova Roma and I would like to see things change to the better. That´s why I have run
for the Tribunus Plebis position.I am confident, if we keep up the pressure we will finally succeed. I know many
citizens who are with us, even in the highest magistrate ranks and in the senate. We have to show them our
support in changing the necessary and to gather further support by the people of Nova Roma . I think there has never
been a better time and chance for change ! We are ready for the change, Nova Roma is ready for the change, let´s do it.

Personally I do not mind if it will be done via a senate decision, a senatus consultum ultimum , a dictator or via a plebiscite
as long as it is been done. But I am also not afraid to go new ways if necessary to pursue our struggle for reform, in the interest
of our republic and the interest of our people.


Concerning the Temple for the Gods in Rome project, I have gathered a group of supporters within Nova Roma around me
who support the project. There are very fine people in this group with devotion, spirit, ideas and the necessary strength.
I would like to invite you Lucius Iulius Regulus to join the project team as well if you would like to.

The current status in a nutshell. The draft for the project proposal is currently being updated and it will be presented to the
Senate in Spring of 2761 AUC. We have contacted various Italian Pagan groups and asked for their support and we do have received
the support of MTR, Movimento Tradizionale Romana. I have been invited to give a short presentation to MTR when
they will have their annual meeting in Roma in Spring of 2761 AUC for the birthday of our Mater Roma . And I have been asked
by our Italian citizens to provide them with an presentation. I am very grateful for these opportunities.

We are investigating into three possibilities:
1) retrocession of an existing ancient temple in Roma , or at least to receive the right to perform public rites there
2) buy land in Roma for a templum and start with a wooden temple (like our ancestors had)
3) buy land nearby Roma for a grove, which might later develop in a templum

The next step should see establishing a sodalitas for our project.

There is a lot of work to be done and we need all the support we can get. So I call on all citizens to support our project and to provide
our Roman Gods with a Temple for their worship, for the first time in 1700 years. There 1000 or more churches in Rome, I think that the
Roman Gods deserve at least one temple in their urbs . I am absolutely confident, there will be a temple for the eternal Roman Gods in the near
future.

Vale optime
Titus Flavius Aquila
Scriba Censoris CFBM
Tribunus Plebis designatus

----- Ursprüngliche Mail ----
Von: Michael Echevarria <luciusjul25@...>
An: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Gesendet: Freitag, den 30. November 2007, 19:19:15 Uhr
Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Religion

Salve Citizen,

I wonder why so many projects that are headed by either priest or any other citizen always wind up stalled. If citizens are trying to progress this society why are they being help back for so long or even sometimes being forgotten about. These are the kinds of situations that need to end if we want to succeed as a legitimate society. Everyone must realize the needs of the religious citizens whether you practice the Religio, Catholicism, Judaism, Buddhism, any other religion, or no religion at all. Divided we fail.

Reform the Religio!!!
Lucius Iulius Regulus

vallenporter <vallenporter@ yahoo.com> wrote:
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@...>
wrote:

>

Salve Gnaeus Equitius Marinus

Reporting for duty
Marcus Cornelius Felix
Sacerdos Templi Mercurius
Sacerdotus Provincia America Boreoccidentalis

I quit the CP years also cus of this fight if you go back to the NR
yahoo Religio group Years ago( like 6 or 7) we had this fight for
about 3 months no-one in the CP has gone over to the other side and
both side do not have the votes to win.
i am with the Reform the Religio !! people ,but the CP logjam is
killing the Religio .
I had plans to do things in portland oregon( left coast usa)
but i needeed info/ok from NR and the OK from CP to do it I have
tryed for all the years that i have in NR ( my civi # is 209)

to do some of the things i need to do here I need some things to give
on the state forms i would have to file with the state of oregon

i need that ok/info BEFORE i can go and ask for money in NR from none
NR people here at a fair ( trade, put on by the temple i head in
NR)have a stall at the PDX ROSE FEST etc.
see the following mesg listed before for this newsgroup aboyt this .

mesg # 15459
mesg # 15438

> Salve Palladi,
>
> deciusiunius <bcatfd@...> writes:
>
> > Salve Marine, (happy belated Marine Corps Birthday)
>
> Thank you. The same to you and a heartfelt 'Semper Fi.'
>
> You asked:
>
> > What would the
> > dictator do or consuls acting under the SCU do?
>
> If the enabling legislation to create either a dictator or an SCU
> could pass the senate, the dictator or the consuls acting under the
> SCU could impose reforms on the Collegium Pontificum. Of course even
> discussing this means the more Taliban-like members of the Collegium
> Pontificum are going to start muttering about the blasphemy decretum
> and threatening anybody who presumes to govern them with pontifical
> censure.
>
> > Modianus screaming he can't reach Cassius and demanding reform is not
> > a call for change.
>
> No, not by itself it isn't. But I certainly understand why Modianus
> is frustrated. As a senatorial observer of the CP, I know it has
> accomplished diddly divided by squat over the past year. As a lictor
> of the Comitia Curiata I know the Pontifex Maximus didn't even convene
> us to enact a lex de imperio for the current year's magistrates. We
> have a small handfull (in a three-fingered hand) of active people in
> the CP who are trying to do the right thing and be active. Marcus
> Cassius isn't the entire problem, but he's certainly a big part of the
> problem. The deeper problem is that there's gridlock in the CP
> between people of very different opinions, and nobody is at all
> willing to compromise.
>
> The fundamental problem here is that the CP is a law unto itself in
> Nova Roma. The Senate doesn't have oversight of religious matters as
> it had in antiquity, and thus there's no power (save for the
> extraordinary measures of SCU or dictator) that can break the deadlock.
>
> You know that I'm no fan of either dictators or SCUs. Both represent
> awful things that hastened the demise of the old republic. But I'm
> about convinced that we've gotten ourselves so boxed in with problems
> of our own creation that those extraordinary solutions are the only
> ones left to us.
>
> Vale,
>
> CN-EQVIT-MARINVS
>

------------ --------- --------- ---
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Machen Sie Yahoo! zu Ihrer Startseite. Los geht's:
http://de.yahoo.com/set

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Sempronia,

thank you very much for your support and yes by all means I would appreciate to have your help and
support on the project very much. I am especially looking for support in Italia. Grazie mille !!!

I will send you a draft of the project within the next days. It is still being updated but you will receive an
idea what we would like to achieve.

In Spring 2761 AUC for the birthday of our mater Roma, I will be in Roma to give a short presentation for MTR
concerning the project,maybe Association Gentilitas interessted as well to join the presentation ?

Thank you again

Vale optime
Titus Flavius Aquila


----- Ursprüngliche Mail ----
Von: Numero 2 <2@...>
An: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Gesendet: Freitag, den 30. November 2007, 21:36:53 Uhr
Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] Reform the Religio / A Temple for the Gods in Rome project

salve Titus,

I wasn't in ML for a long time, but now i'm here.

I'm Italian (and live in Italy) and, if you want, I can give you
information about
burocracy, situation here and problems to solve for this project.
I am in contact with the members of MTR and I'm a member of the
Association Gentilitas
(the web is www.gentilitas. org , but for the moment is just in italian).
I know also the situation
of the Religio Romana in Italy, and I could give you information, if you
want.

If it's interesting for you and the group that work on the project, I
could help you for it.

Vale Optime in P.D.

Sempronia Solaria Messalina

Titus Flavius Aquila ha scritto:

>
>
> Concerning the Temple for the Gods in Rome project, I have gathered a
> group of supporters within Nova Roma around me
> who support the project. There are very fine people in this group with
> devotion, spirit, ideas and the necessary strength.
> I would like to invite you Lucius Iulius Regulus to join the project
> team as well if you would like to.
>
> The current status in a nutshell. The draft for the project proposal
> is currently being updated and it will be presented to the
> Senate in Spring of 2761 AUC. We have contacted various Italian Pagan
> groups and asked for their support and we do have received
> the support of MTR, Movimento Tradizionale Romana. I have been invited
> to give a short presentation to MTR when
> they will have their annual meeting in Roma in Spring of 2761 AUC for
> the birthday of our Mater Roma . And I have been asked
> by our Italian citizens to provide them with an presentation. I am
> very grateful for these opportunities.
>
> We are investigating into three possibilities:
> 1) retrocession of an existing ancient temple in Roma , or at least to
> receive the right to perform public rites there
> 2) buy land in Roma for a templum and start with a wooden temple (like
> our ancestors had)
> 3) buy land nearby Roma for a grove, which might later develop in a
> templum
>
> The next step should see establishing a sodalitas for our project.
>
> There is a lot of work to be done and we need all the support we can
> get. So I call on all citizens to support our project and to provide
> our Roman Gods with a Temple for their worship, for the first time in
> 1700 years. There 1000 or more churches in Rome, I think that the
> Roman Gods deserve at least one temple in their urbs . I am absolutely
> confident, there will be a temple for the eternal Roman Gods in the near
> future.
>
> Vale optime
> Titus Flavius Aquila
> Scriba Censoris CFBM
> Tribunus Plebis designatus
>
> ----- Ursprüngliche Mail ----
> Von: Michael Echevarria <luciusjul25@ yahoo.com
> <mailto:luciusjul25 %40yahoo. com>>
> An: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:Nova- Roma%40yahoogrou ps.com>
> Gesendet: Freitag, den 30. November 2007, 19:19:15 Uhr
> Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Religion
>
> Salve Citizen,
>
> I wonder why so many projects that are headed by either priest or any
> other citizen always wind up stalled. If citizens are trying to
> progress this society why are they being help back for so long or even
> sometimes being forgotten about. These are the kinds of situations
> that need to end if we want to succeed as a legitimate society.
> Everyone must realize the needs of the religious citizens whether you
> practice the Religio, Catholicism, Judaism, Buddhism, any other
> religion, or no religion at all. Divided we fail.
>
> Reform the Religio!!!
> Lucius Iulius Regulus
>
> vallenporter <vallenporter@ yahoo.com> wrote:
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@...>
> wrote:
> >
>
> Salve Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
>
> Reporting for duty
> Marcus Cornelius Felix
> Sacerdos Templi Mercurius
> Sacerdotus Provincia America Boreoccidentalis
>
> I quit the CP years also cus of this fight if you go back to the NR
> yahoo Religio group Years ago( like 6 or 7) we had this fight for
> about 3 months no-one in the CP has gone over to the other side and
> both side do not have the votes to win.
> i am with the Reform the Religio !! people ,but the CP logjam is
> killing the Religio .
> I had plans to do things in portland oregon( left coast usa)
> but i needeed info/ok from NR and the OK from CP to do it I have
> tryed for all the years that i have in NR ( my civi # is 209)
>
> to do some of the things i need to do here I need some things to give
> on the state forms i would have to file with the state of oregon
>
> i need that ok/info BEFORE i can go and ask for money in NR from none
> NR people here at a fair ( trade, put on by the temple i head in
> NR)have a stall at the PDX ROSE FEST etc.
> see the following mesg listed before for this newsgroup aboyt this .
>
> mesg # 15459
> mesg # 15438
>
> > Salve Palladi,
> >
> > deciusiunius <bcatfd@...> writes:
> >
> > > Salve Marine, (happy belated Marine Corps Birthday)
> >
> > Thank you. The same to you and a heartfelt 'Semper Fi.'
> >
> > You asked:
> >
> > > What would the
> > > dictator do or consuls acting under the SCU do?
> >
> > If the enabling legislation to create either a dictator or an SCU
> > could pass the senate, the dictator or the consuls acting under the
> > SCU could impose reforms on the Collegium Pontificum. Of course even
> > discussing this means the more Taliban-like members of the Collegium
> > Pontificum are going to start muttering about the blasphemy decretum
> > and threatening anybody who presumes to govern them with pontifical
> > censure.
> >
> > > Modianus screaming he can't reach Cassius and demanding reform is not
> > > a call for change.
> >
> > No, not by itself it isn't. But I certainly understand why Modianus
> > is frustrated. As a senatorial observer of the CP, I know it has
> > accomplished diddly divided by squat over the past year. As a lictor
> > of the Comitia Curiata I know the Pontifex Maximus didn't even convene
> > us to enact a lex de imperio for the current year's magistrates. We
> > have a small handfull (in a three-fingered hand) of active people in
> > the CP who are trying to do the right thing and be active. Marcus
> > Cassius isn't the entire problem, but he's certainly a big part of the
> > problem. The deeper problem is that there's gridlock in the CP
> > between people of very different opinions, and nobody is at all
> > willing to compromise.
> >
> > The fundamental problem here is that the CP is a law unto itself in
> > Nova Roma. The Senate doesn't have oversight of religious matters as
> > it had in antiquity, and thus there's no power (save for the
> > extraordinary measures of SCU or dictator) that can break the deadlock.
> >
> > You know that I'm no fan of either dictators or SCUs. Both represent
> > awful things that hastened the demise of the old republic. But I'm
> > about convinced that we've gotten ourselves so boxed in with problems
> > of our own creation that those extraordinary solutions are the only
> > ones left to us.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > CN-EQVIT-MARINVS
> >
>
> ------------ --------- --------- ---
> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> Machen Sie Yahoo! zu Ihrer Startseite. Los geht's:
> http://de.yahoo com/set <http://de.yahoo com/set>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





Machen Sie Yahoo! zu Ihrer Startseite. Los geht's:
http://de.yahoo.com/set

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus Fl. Galerio Aurelio salutem dicit

You are referrering to Appius Claudius Cicero, Italian citizen of Nova
Roma since late 2005, and a capite censi. He couldn't have run for
office, he is not an assidui. But he seems to favor Italian
nationalism over Nova Roma's international orientation.

Vale:

Caeso Buteo

On Nov 30, 2007 3:01 PM, Patrick D. Owen <Patrick.Owen@...> wrote:
>
> Aurelianus Cato sal.
>
> Don't be silly. The majority of the members of Nova Roma are
> provincials and we have a very small presence in both Italia and
> Roma. There must be some significant problems with MTR or all of
> the NR citizens in Italia would be members of that group exclusively.
>
> Nova Roma can only be changed by active and constructive
> participation of its citizens. You have done some good work there
> and I expect that you will do more in the future. I have seen some
> good ideas expressed by citizens that I have never seen a post from
> before. If they can stick to the thoughts and plans that they have
> posted these last two days, it is likely that there will be some
> changes here.
>
> Besides, didn't you just run for a magistracy? If so, once you have
> taken your oath of office you are bound by strong personal ties to
> do whatever you can (under the Constitution and leges) to improve
> and advance the cause of Nova Roma.
>
> I would expect nothing less from you.
>
> Vale.
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Claudio Guzzo"
>
> <claudio.guzzo@...> wrote:
> >
> > Salve!
> > Titus Flavius Aquila wrote:
> > "The religious leaders (CP) are here to serve the eternal gods and
> the people of Nova Roma.
> > This is my firm conviction !
> > I do not think that we the plebeians need to march out of Nova
> Roma as did our ancestors in Roma Antiqua
> > to get our rights pursued, or ?
> > Valete optime
> > Titus Flavius Aquila
> > Tribunus Plebis designatus"
> > May be we should rebuild SPQR in Roma and forget Roma "made in
> Maine" or in China...
> > Vale
> > ACC
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>

Aurelianus Germanico sal.

Buy your own blasted ballcap from CafePress! Unless you are playing
baseball, I have never understood why everybody likes baseball
caps. They don't keep the weather off and you always burn the back
of your neck. I prefer panamas in the summer and Stetsons or
borsolinos in the winter. Keeps my skin young, it does!

Why don't you come up to the Nashville in Austrorientalis sometime
and we'll go out for some Irish music, cigars, booze, and I'll show
you around the religious sites. We can talk reform and discuss the
finer points of the Religio and good plebeian cooking. You like
pulses in your gumbo?

Vale.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, bill segura <bhsegura@...> wrote:
>
> We are not virtual people. We function as NR people outside of the
internet.
> If you want to issue something, issue a ball cap.....at least it
would be useful
> Respectfully
> T. A. Germanicus
>
> PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@... wrote:
> The purpose of a membership/citizenship card is to provide a
physical sign
> that Nova Roma has taken a step to out of the internet NR world
into the real
> world that we all inhabit. It demonstrates that our organization
is able to
> give the citizens of our organization something tangible to have
that ties
> them to one another. Some individuals have the ability to consider
themselves
> part of Nova Roma without a tangible object but others need to
have some
> physical object or be able to attend an event/meeting/conventus so
that they may
> interact with others. It is the nature of human beings that most
of us
> require the social and intellectual intercourse with one another
so as to
> reinforce the feeling of belonging to a group of like-minded
people.
>
> In the real world, we know that we are part of a country by the
daily use of
> our currency, seeing our flag being flown, speaking our native
language, and
> enjoying the day-to-day intercourse with other individuals with
who we are
> bound by national, regional, local, social, and spiritual ties.
>
> In Nova Roma, we are just beginning to be able to do this by
displaying the
> NR flag or emblem, have NR currency, put up an NR calendar, and
(in some
> areas) attending NR events where we can enjoy the normal
intercourse and exchange
> that we enjoy in our everyday lives.
>
> Of course, this is just my opinion.
>
> Fl. Galerius Aurelianus
>
>
>
> **************************************Check out AOL's list of
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>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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M. Hortensia C. Popillio Laenatis spd;
I agree with you, it would be wonderful if the CP voted to restore
the historical reform.

I hope the pontifices realize that G.Iulius Scarus the author of the
anti-reform, is also an unmarried Flamen Quirinalis.

In the words of Professor Jerzy Linderski, one of the foremost experts
in classical philology and Roman law:
"Marriage was, in fact, an inseparable part of their sacerdotium.."
Religious Aspects of the Conflict of the Orders: The Case of
Confarratio in "Roman Questions" p. 543

He knows as we discussed this in March on the ML. So I am not
surprised things have come to a bad pass when a pontifex creates such
a vitium - religious offence against the gods.

May the other pontifices come to their senses and return to the mos of
the Res Publica!
bene vale
Marca Hortensia Maior


Any attempt should begin with the CP itself, before more

> agressive approaches such as succession, a dictator, or a SCU should
> be considered.
>
> Valete.
>
>
>

Agricola Regulo Omnibusque sal.

It need not be the case that you would be adding new problems, and the
People might or might not need to set up another collegium.

The College of Pontiffs is responsible for the State Cult only. Their
deadlock is a dire situation for the state and that must be dealt
with, it is true. However, the people need not be stopped by this
situation.

We can work to build up our individual practices in the private cultus
deorum. We can build shrines and altars, just as was done in ancient
times. We can research and write articles in the wiki. We can post
photographs and videos of what we have accomplished. In doing so, some
people will stand out as experts and leaders. This is just what
happened in ancient times and it is fitting that this might happen again.

The state might not recognize our accomplishments as official, and
that is too bad, but why should that stop us? If the plebs decide to
put forth a measure in their assembly, that is their business. I don't
think it either good or bad, but I suggest that it is not strictly
necessary. The cultus deorum came at first from the collective
practices of the people, and the organization of those practices into
a state cult came later. People were always free to do privately as
they would, to seek advice where they would, to build as they would.
We could do the same without requiring a hierarchy above us.

In short, I support the reform that Modianus proposed last year.
Meanwhile, we should not let the CP deadlock stand in our way as
individuals as we move forward with the development of the private
cultus deorum.


optime vale et valete in pace deorum!



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Michael Echevarria <luciusjul25@...>
wrote:

>
> Salve Maior,
>
> I agree with this idea. If in fact we can have a plebiscite and

vote in a Lex Domitia to solve these issues then I think I would agree
to one. But what hurts us more, I think, is the fact that we are just
adding our own and not fixing the issues in the current Collegium. We
would just be dividing ourselves, and division is not a good idea
especially in the Religio. The religio calls for unity amongst us so
that we may worship the Gods together, not have our own different
sects with different rules. So we need to figure out a way in which
reform can bring us all together.

>
> Reform the Religio!!!
> Lucius Iulius Regulus
>
>
>
> Maior <rory12001@...> wrote:
> M. Hortensia C. Popillio Laenatis quiritibus spd;
> these are trying times, where the few do not care for the whole..
>
> actually we can have a plebiscite. The plebeians could vote
> in a Lex Domitia for their own plebeian pontifices and augurs.
>
> We woudn't be altering the current dysfunctional CP, just
> adding our own.
>
> the Lex Ogulnia and Lex Domitia are the laws that gave Romans this
> power when they were oppressed. I think this may be a way to escape
> this dreadful deadlock.
> bene valete
> Marca Hortensia Maior
>
> >
> > C. Popillius laenas SPD.
> >
> > >>How on earth? The Constitution says that ONLY a law passed by
> the
> > Comitia CENTURIATA my alter the Constitution. A plebistitum no.
> > Indeed, as you've said, the Constitution is silent about the power
> of
> > the plebiscitum, bit it's not silent about what can alter the
> > Constitution. A lex of the Comitia Centuriata can alter it -- or a
> > dictator.<<
> >
> >
> > This is, of course, correct as written in black and white within
> the
> > Constitution itself. No plebicite can alter the Constitution,
> only a
> > vote of the Comitia Centuriata that must then be approved by the
> > Senate. The procedure for altering the Constitution is onerous
> and was
> > intended to be so to ensure that chnages to our supreme governing
> > document were well thought out.
> >
> > Valete.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your

homepage.

>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Maior <rory12001@...> writes:

> I hope the pontifices realize that G.Iulius Scarus the author of the
> anti-reform, is also an unmarried Flamen Quirinalis.

I know he used to be married. Did his wife die? If so, was it
customary in antiquity for a Flamen Quirinalis to step down when his
wife died?

CN-EQVIT-MARINVS

Salvete Quirites!

I am one of the Senatorial observers of the Collegium Pontificum and
I have for many years been a supporter of a Religio reform, not only
because of what I have seen in the Collegium of passivity. I have
over and over again suggested elections in the Comitia according to
the system that once was established in Roma Antiqua. But not all
these discussions were public because there was a constant threat
from the Boni-part of the Collegium to throw any opponent out of Nova
Roma by use of the "decretum weapon". I am now happy to see this
discussion, I just wish we may se more action and less talk.

If the present Senate stands in the way of Religio reform there is a
way to fix that problem. After the Census is completed the _present_
Censores are allowed to make changes in the composition of the
Senate. I think this could and should be done. It is possible to keep
a Senate with different approaches (religiously, culturally and
politically), something that I think is good and still get rid of
those who stand in the way of reform, many who also are extremely
passive in the Res Publica as a whole.

Some Senatores are passive, but partly since they lost faith in the
ability of the Res Publica to reform it self in many fields. I am sad
to say this, but some of those Senatores seem to have disappeared and
we now need to find new experienced citizens to fill the Senate with.
We need the Censores to find enough citizens that support reform to
make the Senate the a supporter of Religio reform. Then it is
perfectly possible to make the minimum changes in the Constitution
that are needed, by vote in the Comitia.

As the founder of the only (sadly enough, the only) important Religio
project in Nova Roma, the "Magna Mater" project I have always had a
deep interest to find the proper place for the Religio within Nova
Roma. It never was my intention that the Magna Mater project would be
the only Religio project in Nova Roma, but I then found it symbolic
for the struggle to survive that Nova Roam went through at the time
of the project's founding and as this struggle still continues today
I still find it symbolic. Now it is time for reform and time for
other projects of the Religio Romana to be started, projects like the
building of an altar or temple near Roma in Italy, as proposed
earlier.

If the Censores "reform" the Senate that would be well within the
Constitution, as will a Comitia change of the Constitution in needed
points. Then we wouldn't need any rebellion and a Religio reform
might be the first law next year's Consuls could introduce in the
Comitia, a reform that then would be supported by the Senate without
need for a SCU and Dictator.
--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus

Senator, Censorius et Consularis
Accensus LAF, Scribae Censoris GFBM
Praeses, Triumvir et Praescriptor Academia Thules ad S.R.A. et N.
Editor-in-Chief, Publisher and Owner of "Roman Times Quarterly"
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

Salve Lucretius Agricola,

I completely agree with you that we each should strive in our own
endeavors to found our own altars and temples despite the CP's
standstill. However, if we go about that way, then we might as well
just say "to heck with Nova Roma" altogether.

My understanding is that Nova Roma was a place for Roman
Reconstructionists to cooperate and work together to restore and
revive the Religio Romana. Its sounds like everyone interested in
the Religio Romana should just abondon Nova Roma altogether.

My issues with the CP come from the fact that they have agreed
before the Gods to perform their religious duties on behalf of all
the citizens of Nova Roma. If they are not doing their religious
duties, the Ira Deum shall essentially be on us all due to each of
us being citizens of Nova Roma.

I take my Gods and my religion with the utmost of seriousness. Its
a shame that these people do not recognize the weight of their
duties, and makes me indeed question their Pietas. And quite
honestly, those of Impietas should not be in positions to serve the
Gods.

Vale optime in pace Magnae Matris,
Titus Iulius Nero

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "M. Lucretius Agricola"
<wm_hogue@...> wrote:

>
> Agricola Regulo Omnibusque sal.
>
> It need not be the case that you would be adding new problems, and

the

> People might or might not need to set up another collegium.
>
> The College of Pontiffs is responsible for the State Cult only.

Their

> deadlock is a dire situation for the state and that must be dealt
> with, it is true. However, the people need not be stopped by this
> situation.
>
> We can work to build up our individual practices in the private

cultus

> deorum. We can build shrines and altars, just as was done in

ancient

> times. We can research and write articles in the wiki. We can post
> photographs and videos of what we have accomplished. In doing so,

some

> people will stand out as experts and leaders. This is just what
> happened in ancient times and it is fitting that this might happen

again.

>
> The state might not recognize our accomplishments as official, and
> that is too bad, but why should that stop us? If the plebs decide

to

> put forth a measure in their assembly, that is their business. I

don't

> think it either good or bad, but I suggest that it is not strictly
> necessary. The cultus deorum came at first from the collective
> practices of the people, and the organization of those practices

into

> a state cult came later. People were always free to do privately as
> they would, to seek advice where they would, to build as they

would.

> We could do the same without requiring a hierarchy above us.
>
> In short, I support the reform that Modianus proposed last year.
> Meanwhile, we should not let the CP deadlock stand in our way as
> individuals as we move forward with the development of the private
> cultus deorum.
>
>
> optime vale et valete in pace deorum!
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Michael Echevarria <luciusjul25@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Salve Maior,
> >
> > I agree with this idea. If in fact we can have a plebiscite and
> vote in a Lex Domitia to solve these issues then I think I would

agree

> to one. But what hurts us more, I think, is the fact that we are

just

> adding our own and not fixing the issues in the current Collegium.

We

> would just be dividing ourselves, and division is not a good idea
> especially in the Religio. The religio calls for unity amongst us

so

> that we may worship the Gods together, not have our own different
> sects with different rules. So we need to figure out a way in which
> reform can bring us all together.
> >
> > Reform the Religio!!!
> > Lucius Iulius Regulus
> >
> >
> >
> > Maior <rory12001@> wrote:
> > M. Hortensia C. Popillio Laenatis quiritibus spd;
> > these are trying times, where the few do not care for the whole..
> >
> > actually we can have a plebiscite. The plebeians could vote
> > in a Lex Domitia for their own plebeian pontifices and augurs.
> >
> > We woudn't be altering the current dysfunctional CP, just
> > adding our own.
> >
> > the Lex Ogulnia and Lex Domitia are the laws that gave Romans

this

> > power when they were oppressed. I think this may be a way to

escape

> > this dreadful deadlock.
> > bene valete
> > Marca Hortensia Maior
> >
> > >
> > > C. Popillius laenas SPD.
> > >
> > > >>How on earth? The Constitution says that ONLY a law passed

by

> > the
> > > Comitia CENTURIATA my alter the Constitution. A plebistitum no.
> > > Indeed, as you've said, the Constitution is silent about the

power

> > of
> > > the plebiscitum, bit it's not silent about what can alter the
> > > Constitution. A lex of the Comitia Centuriata can alter it --

or a

> > > dictator.<<
> > >
> > >
> > > This is, of course, correct as written in black and white

within

> > the
> > > Constitution itself. No plebicite can alter the Constitution,
> > only a
> > > vote of the Comitia Centuriata that must then be approved by

the

> > > Senate. The procedure for altering the Constitution is onerous
> > and was
> > > intended to be so to ensure that chnages to our supreme

governing

> > > document were well thought out.
> > >
> > > Valete.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your
> homepage.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>