Salve mi Agricola

Exactly!

Many people think of the religio Romana in terms of how it has been
presented by Hollywood and the movie industries in other countries.
Well, there is much to be said for the pomp that attended the sacra
publica of the Roman State. Such displays were only part of the
religio Romana, and I would say only a very small part of the religio
Romana. When the Emperor of Japan goes forth on parade in full
regalia to visit a shrine and offer worship to his divine ancestors
this is comparable to the public displays that were once seen in
imperial Rome. And then there are the millions of Japanese who every
day offer countless acts of worship at small shrines by the roadside,
near trees, in their back yards or in their homes or in cemetaries,
and there are the thousands who each day visit the many shrines and
temples found in the islands of Japan. All that is part of their
religion as well. Imperial spectacle is fine, but as far as
importance, it means little, ultimately, than the gesture of one man
when taken out of the context of millions of worshippers who join
with him every day.

In my mind Shintoism may be the closest religion seen in the modern
world to what can be compared to the religio Romana. As far as
practices, one can find closer parallels in Hinduism. But you find
in Shintoism a worship of the ancestors that I think is closer to
Roman ideas. And there are the many lesser deities of Nature, and
also the spirits of travellers, or ghosts if you will - the Manes who
are remembered in those isles. There are spirits warded off by the
sound of drums and gongs, by the laughter of festivals, by the
lighting of candles in the dark. There are spirits whose presence are
invoked by the sound of the flute and the graceful movement of
dance. Then also are the greater Gods and Goddesses of the sea, and
of the earth, of the stars and of the sky above. There is nothing in
the Shintoism of Japan that would seem unfamiliar to a Roman.

As much as I too enjoy the spectacle of a pompa, it is the simple and
sincere worship offered by Numa Pompilius, directly between the man
and Egeria, or directly between Faunus and Numa, and between Numa and
Jupiter, with which I identify the religio Romana. Its simplest and
purest form. Everything else was decoration for the benefit of the
masses. But without that interconnection between the individual and
the divine in Nature there was no real religio Romana. Going through
rituals, murmuring Latin phrases that you don't really understand, is
just superstitio. Before all else, the foundation for our religious
tradition - whether we see it in terms of an individual or of a
community - has got to be the discovery, recognition, interconnection
of ourselves in the divine. Then, maybe, the Gods will once more
walk among us.

Ten days from now we will celebrate Saturnalia. We celebrate that
Golden Era when the Gods walked among us, when the Gods were a part
of our society, visited our homes daily. It is a time of peace when
we recommit ourselves to bringing the Gods back into our lives and
into our hearts. Fitting, too, Hanukkah has begun already this year,
with our Jewish sisters and brothers remembering their ancestors and
the roots of their religious tradition. And soon to follow our
Christian brothers and sisters will celebrate their holidays of this
season as well. Peace on earth, peace among men and women of good
will, peace among the sons and daughters of Quirinus, the
grandchildren of Mars. the great grandchildren of Jupiter, and the
generations of Saturnus.

Io Saturnalia! Io triumphe!
Annum Novum faustum felicem tibi, mi Agricola

M Moravius Piscinus


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "M. Lucretius Agricola"
<wm_hogue@...> wrote:

>
> Agricola Piscino sal.
>
> You speak rightly. The feeling that you mention leads people to do
> this, for example. http://www.flickr.com/photos/agricola/1036241256/
>
> optime vale!
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "marcushoratius" <mhoratius@>

wrote:

> >
> > Salve mi Sexte Lucili
> >
> > "In ancient times (today's) temples began as sacred precincts,

first

> > set off and solemnized by augures, then at length they were
> > consecrated by the pontifices, and finally temples were erected

on

> > them." ~ Servius, Ad Aeneis 1.446
> >
> >
> > Something to consider is that our ancestors did not randomly

choose to

> > erect temples in just any locations. Noster Stoicus wrote:
> >
> > "Have you ever come upon a grove thick with venerable trees which
> > tower above the ordinary height and by their layers of

intertwined

> > branches dim the light of Heaven? The loftiness of the forest,

its

> > quiet seclusion, the marvel of thick and unbroken shade in

untrammeled

> > space will impart to you a conviction of the divine." ~ Seneca,
> > Epistula 41.3
> >
> > I would say that one has to hear the Gods calling, has to "feel"

Their

> > presence, intuit Their calling to you, and experience Them in a
> > locus. That is where one should offer worship. Such a place

should

> > be set off, as a locus, its boundaries marked off by stones,

perhaps

> > with ribbons hung between the trees to encircle its perimeters;

the

> > augures erecting the templum through auspicia to sanctify the

place.

> > Then over time, through continues use, the locus may be made into

a

> > fanum, with a permanent altar, an enclosing wall, and a column on
> > which would be an image of the God or Goddess for whom the place

is

> > dedicated. then some day a small aedes can be built, as a

sacullum,

> > and the deity invoked to send down His or Her numen to inhabit

the

> > place. But before we make any such plans to construct edifices,

we

> > must do as our ancestors and find the presence of the divine

first.

> >
> > Mi Stoicus Sexte, where did Seneca advise Lucilius in that

epistle to

> > look for the divine?
> >
> > Vale et vade in pace Deorum
> >
> > M Moravius Piscinus
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Svm Stoicus" <phorus@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Salve!
> > >
> > > My opinion is that time is directing to build the Temple. Who

has

> > sensibility can see what happen around us. I think that Gods

speak to

> > us but who can notices them call?
> > >
> > > Vale
> > >
> > > Sextus Lucilius Tutor
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus S. P. D.

We have three citizens who have come forward to stand for
Quaestor. We still need at least one candidate for Custos.

To serve in any of these offices must have been a citizen for at least
six months by Kal. Ian. 2761 (January 1st, 2008) and be an assiduus
(tax-paying) citizen. Must be at least 21 years old as of Kal. Ian. 2761
(January 1st, 2008).

Please consider standing.

Citizens have until 18:00 Roman time on Saturday Dec 8th (CET)
to announce your candidacy here in the forum.

Valete

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Consul

T.Flavius Aquila Sexto Lucili Tutor Queastor designatus salutem plurimam dicit

Salve Tutor ,

very well spoken , I applause and support your statements ! You identify precisely the elements .

Vale optime
Titus Flavius Aquila
Scriba Censoris KFBM
Tribunus Plebis designatus



----- Ursprüngliche Mail ----
Von: Svm Stoicus <phorus@...>
An: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Gesendet: Freitag, den 7. Dezember 2007, 19:34:15 Uhr
Betreff: [Nova-Roma] Re: Real temples !--No, real rites and offerings.

Salve,

thank you for your long explain, but what you have against my opinion? I think that is it important symbol, symbol which shows that we are here that it isnt only club of gardeners. Poeple must look that Nova Roma isnt only game about ranks, we must go out from virtual world and enter to real world. And the Temple is first step how we can show that we are here. In our era dont fight with weapons against barbarians nations but we fight against narrow-minded culture without destination.
The Temple for reborn old order, therefore to Nova Roma begin to live in real world.

Seneca spoke against superstitiousness, no against divine.

Vale my friend

Sextus Lucilius Tutor

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





Heute schon einen Blick in die Zukunft von E-Mails wagen? Versuchen Sie´s mit dem neuen Yahoo! Mail. www.yahoo.de/mail

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fl. Galerius Aurelianus fl. Cer. sal.

The Collegium Pontificum issued this decretum concerning the
definition of the various dies in MMDXXLVIII9IX). While not meant
to be the end all discussion and scholarly work on the dies, it
represents some of the best work of the combined resources of the
Sacred Colleges and input of Nova Roma:

COLLEGIUM PONTIFICUM
Responsum Pontificum de Diebus
According to the Mos Majorum and to the Jus Sacrum, the pontifices
of Nova Roma interpret the meaning of the different fasti of the
Roman calendar in the following way:

I. Dies FASTI (F): These are dies profesti, normal working days in
which the Gods favour human activities.
1.Tribunals may be open and the praetores may fully perform their
duties. Petitio actionis and other documents may be accepted.
2.Marriages and private worship may be celebrated.
3.Contiones may be called and celebrated. Citizens may express their
will, but any vote conducted will not be binding for the
magistrates.
4.Markets may be open, business may be made, contracts may be
signed. Private activities may take place normally.
II. Dies COMITIALES (C): These are identical to dies fasti, but they
are reserved for the celebration of public assemblies.
1.If no magistrate calls any of the Comitia on a dies comitialis, it
shall be treated as a dies fastus.
2.If a magistrate calls the Comitia, then a vote may take place. The
result of such a vote would be binding for the magistrates.
III. Dies NEFASTI (N): They are dies profesti (working days) that
present some restrictions due to their religious character.
1.Tribunals may be open and petitiones actionis and other documents
may be accepted. However, the praetores cannot pass a sentence
(because they cannot say the words do, dico, addico).
2.Public worship has preference over private worship. It is not
recommended to celebrate marriages.
3.Comitia should not be called. Contiones may be called to inform
the People, but no voting should take place. The Senate may meet,
but affairs concerning cultus and religio should be dealt with
before any civil affair in the Senate agenda.
4.Private activities are not favoured. It is not recommended to
begin a journey or to sign contracts, or to generally start a new
activity. Should an action have begun on a previous day, however, it
might be carried on normally. Markets may be open.
IV. Dies ENDOTERCISI vel INTERCISI (EN): These are "cut asunder"
days, that prepare the feria of the following day. They are dies
profesti (working days) with certain restrictions. They are dies
nefasti in the morning (horae I to IIII) before and during the
celebration of the sacrifices; but they become dies fasti at noon
(horae V to VIII) and nefasti again in the evening (horae VIIII to
XII) during and after the offering in the altars of the sacrifices
performed in the morning.
V. Dies NEFASTI PVBLICI (NP): A dies nefastus publicus is a dies
festus, a holiday for all citizens (not for slaves), because they
are reserved for public worship and dedicated to a given god
(feriae). All the NP days are feriae publicae pro populo, but not
all dies feriati are NP. They have the same characteristics as a
dies nefastus, but tribunals are closed (because magistrates have to
attend public religious ceremonies). These include fixed holidays
(feriae stativae), mobile holidays (feriae conceptivae) decreed by
magistrates and irregular holidays (feriae imperativae) decreed by
the Senate.
VI. Dies FASTI PVBLICI vel FASTI PVRI (FP): The meaning of this
fastus is not yet completely clear. Further research is necessary,
and the pontifices will one day issue a new responsum concerning
this particular fastus. For the moment being, the pontifices
recommend to treat these days as if they were NEFASTI PVBLICI.
VII. Quando Rex Comitiavit Fas (QRCF): These are fixed days (dies
fissi) in the calendar, and they are also dies feriati (religious
workship takes place) but dies profesti (working days). They are a
dies nefastus from dawn till the Rex Sacrorum appears in the
Comitium and performs the purifying rites. From then on it is a dies
fastus and the Comitia may be adjourned.
VIII. Quando Stercus Delatum Fas (QSTDF or QSDF): These are fixed
days (dies fissi) in the calendar, and they are also dies feriati
(religious workship takes place) but dies profesti (working days).
They are a dies nefastus from dawn till the vestales finish cleaning
the Temple and the House of Vesta and take the garbage out of the
sacred grounds through the Porta Stercolaria. Garbage is then swept
down the streets and thrown to the Tiber. From that moment onwards,
it is a dies fastus.
IX. Dies ATRI: These are "dark" days in which fire should not be
lit* and sacrifices should not be offered in altars. Temples should
not celebrate public worship. All religious ceremonies are private
but without sacrifices. Making journeys, starting new projects, or
doing anything risky should be avoided, and certain gods, including
Juppiter and Janus, may not be named. They are always dies fastus
(F) or dies comitialis (C), never dies nefastus (N) or dies nefastus
publicus (NP). The dies atri include two special subcategories:
1.Dies POSTRIDUANI: These are the days after all the Kalendae, Nonae
and Idus of each month. They are, in general terms, dies fasti (F),
but they are days of bad omens for beginning private activities,
business or journeys. Public worship is explicitly forbidden.
2.Dies VITIOSI: These are specific dates decreed by the Senate,
considered unlucky days on which some disaster for Rome had
occurred. The only two fixed dies vitiosi are the dies ALIENSIS, on
July the 18th, commemorating the defeat on the Allia river and the
sack of Rome by the Gauls, and August the 2nd, a. d. IV Nonae
Sextiliae, which is the traditional anniversary of the Battle of
Cannae. These days must be declared dies atri through a
senatusconsultum.
X. Dies RELIGIOSI: These are days dedicated to the worship of
infernal** deities and of the dead; worship to celestial deities
should not take place, and temples of celestial deities should close
their doors. All ceremonies are private and celebrated in domestic
shrines by the pater familias. These are always a dies nefastus (N),
never a dies fastus (F), dies comitiales (C) or dies nefastus
publicus (NP).
XI. Special dates for marriages Marriages should not to be performed
during the periods of 13-21 February, 1-20 March, throughout the
month of May, or during 5-15 June, nor were they to be performed on
days when the mundus was opened (24 August, 5 October, and 8
November) and should be discouraged on those dates that dies
Postriduani, dies Vitiosi, or dies ater. These dates specifically
refer to the rite of confarreatio as some are periods when the
Flamen and Flaminca Dialis would not have been available to attend,
as required, while others concern feriae for the Manes. Although not
proscribed in regard to other forms of marriages, they were still
considered ill-omened days on which to marry.

22 Iunius 2759

*M. Moravius and I recently corresponded on this particular point.
I disagreed with the original proposal by Gn. Salix Astur Pontifex &
proposed that it actually meant that no new fire could be kindled
(by fire drill, flint & steel, etc.) or a dead fire re-kindled, but
a flame could be taken from a burning lamp or candle and/or coals
taken from a focus to light another since the fire had been made
before the dies ater. The CP welcomes any scholarly input on this
subject with proper documentation. FGA.

**chthonic or underworld Gods; such as Ops, Tellus, Dis, Robiligus.

Vale.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, GAIVS IVLIANVS <ivlianvs309@...>
wrote:

Salvete Omnes! I remember reading some where that the term "Dies
Religiosus" was an alternate term for Dies Ater the unlucky day
after the Kalendae, Nonae and Idus. Is this termology correct?! Many
years ago I remember seeing it used in a Roman calendar used by the
M.T.R. in Italia! Does anyone have any info on these two terms?
Gratias vobis ago! Valete! Gaivs Ivlianvs

Titus Flavius Aquila Marco Moravi Piscino Consul designatus salutem plurimam dicit

Salve Piscinus,

thank you very much for the elaborate explanations. I think we do agree in the final goal, it is just the way how to reach this goal
where we might slightly differ.

I am absolutely convinced that we need to get out of the virtual world into the real world. We need to be seen as
Nova Roma , our Religio must find a center where we can honour and worship our Gods.This center will need to be in Rome or
at least nearby.The Nova Roman people long for a temple , a spiritual center to worship the Roman Gods in public rites as
the mighty gods deserve it.

I agree with all of your statements concerning finding the right place for a templum, but we have one major advantage compared
to our ancestors, the temples are already existing,our ancestors already made the move and built temples. So we just need to
tie in and build our temple. We do not need to start where our ancestors started 2760 years ago, we can tie in where they have
been 2000 years ago.

In providing an temple/templum to the Romans worldwide, Nova Roma will gain compliment and recognition as the leader in romanitas.

Saturnalia is coming soon , lets give the Nova Roman citizens a sign of hope that Nova Roma , the magistrates , the senate and the
people will work closely together to reach our vision, A Temple for the Gods in Rome !

Vale optime
Titus Flavius Aquila
Scriba Censoris KFBM
Tribunus Plebis designatus


Heute schon einen Blick in die Zukunft von E-Mails wagen? www.yahoo.de/mail

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve,

Equitius Marinus is very correct. Everything I have read about the worship of Vesta by the Romans substantiates that Vesta was never represented by a statue, although it was said that Augustus kept a statue of her in his own private residence. The Vestals taught that Vesta was present in her sacred flame in the hearth in the Temple of Vesta and that she alone of all the Gods and Goddesses could not be represented in cold marble or any other material. I am not saying you can not have a statue of her. I just want to allay any fears of lighting a fire without possessing a statue of Vesta, for She is present in the flame. May I suggest that you light the fire in her honor and ask her to protect your fire. I think you will find She is quite amenable.

Vale bene in pace Deorum,

Maxima Valeria Messallina
Sacerdos Vestalis

"Nihil apud Romanos Templo Vestae sanctius habetur."
"Among the Romans nothing is held more holy than the Temple of Vesta."





Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@...> wrote:
bill segura <bhsegura@...> writes:

> T A Germanicus
> A bit off topic, I recently moved. During my move I broke my
> statue of Vesta. I have not been able to find a suitable
> replacement. Can anyone tell me where I can find one? Does anyone
> know the origin of the donkey that is associated with her?
> My wife will not let me light a fire in the fireplace without her.

For Vesta with Pales the donkey, see
http://www.sacredsource.com/prodinfo.asp?number=VSP

For some other representations of Vesta, check out
http://www.goddessgift.net/page27.html

It's worth noting that the Romans in antiquity never represented Vesta
anthromorphically. She was always represented by the sacred flame in
her temple.

Vale,

CN-EQVIT-MARINVS





---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

M. Hortensia Tito Flavio Sex. Lucilio Marco Moravioque Consul
designatus salutem plurimam dicit

Salvete Aquila, Piscine et Tutor;
I am for both! domestic rites and a big temple. I think a
problem may be a Europe-Americas perception

In Rome, Gallia, Dacia, Germania, there are existing Roman temples
that the city/state owns, that the cultores could ask to use. It
happens in Greece with YSEE.

Of course no such thing exists in the Americas, North and South. At
the same time the Americas have many wonderful wild places of
grandeur, perfect places for worship.

This isn't the case in many places in Europe. There is a limited
amount of land which is owned and heavily cultivated. Land is
expensive, people don't have large backyards... There are few wild
places, and they may be very far away.

So different regions of Nova Roma have different capacities and
needs. There is room for both!

bene valete in pacem deorum
Marca Hortensia Maior

> thank you very much for the elaborate explanations. I think we do

agree in the final goal, it is just the way how to reach this goal

> where we might slightly differ.
>
> I am absolutely convinced that we need to get out of the virtual

world into the real world. We need to be seen as

> Nova Roma , our Religio must find a center where we can honour and

worship our Gods.This center will need to be in Rome or

> at least nearby.The Nova Roman people long for a temple , a

spiritual center to worship the Roman Gods in public rites as

> the mighty gods deserve it.
>
> I agree with all of your statements concerning finding the right

place for a templum, but we have one major advantage compared

> to our ancestors, the temples are already existing,our ancestors

already made the move and built temples. So we just need to

> tie in and build our temple. We do not need to start where our

ancestors started 2760 years ago, we can tie in where they have

> been 2000 years ago.
>
> In providing an temple/templum to the Romans worldwide, Nova Roma

will gain compliment and recognition as the leader in romanitas.

>
> Saturnalia is coming soon , lets give the Nova Roman citizens a

sign of hope that Nova Roma , the magistrates , the senate and the

> people will work closely together to reach our vision, A Temple

for the Gods in Rome !

>
> Vale optime
> Titus Flavius Aquila
> Scriba Censoris KFBM
> Tribunus Plebis designatus
>
>
> Heute schon einen Blick in die Zukunft von E-Mails wagen?

www.yahoo.de/mail

>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Salvete Omnes,

I stand before you as a candidate for the office of Custos for 2761 AVC.

This is the first time I have sought publicly elected office in Nova Roma.

I have been a citizen since Ian. 2756 AVC (January 2003 C.E.), and am an assiduus.

I have served Nova Roma as a Scriba Propraetoris, Procurator, and most recently as Legatus Pro Praetore of Canada Orientalis (since Nov. 2759 AVC). I have asked the Senate to prorogue me in this capacity.

I am interested in the election process of Nova Roma. I have been a citizen for nearly 5 years and still do not have a complete understanding of how magistrates are elected. I resolve to serve Nova Roma with enthusiasm as I learn about the inner workings of elections.

If elected, I ask that the Custos-elect assist me as I learn the ropes.

I ask for your support. May peace be with you.

Valete,

Lucius Aurelius Severus



---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Tullia Scholastica"
<fororom@...> wrote:

>
> > A. Tullia Scholastica C. Petronio Dextro quiritibus, sociis,

peregrinisque

> > omnibus S.P.D.
> >
> >

> > Albucius is very busy right now, but would have liked to have had
> > assistance with uploading his translations of our laws when he had

more time.


Really? He has, inter alia, uploaded the following images and created
or edited the following pages. The total number of accumulated edits
this year is in the hundreds, as is shown on the associated history
pages.

There is no record of his asking for assistance on the wikimagisters'
page or on the NRWiki list.

When he had more time, he did the work listed below. It is a partial list.

http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Image:Gallia_drapeau.jpg
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Image:Drapfr.jpg
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Image:Drned.jpg
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Image:Drlat.jpg
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Image:Galliamap.jpg
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Image:Quirites_home.jpg
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Image:Quirinus_home.jpg
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Image:Eagle.jpg
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Image:BAS.jpg
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Image:Three_generations_of_citizens.JPG

http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Provincia_Gallia_%28Nova_Roma%29
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Provincia_Gallia_-_Citizens_%28Nova_Roma%29
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/FR:Provincia_Gallia_%28Nova_Roma%29
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/LA:Provincia_Gallia_%28Nova_Roma%29
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/FR:Provincia_Gallia_-_Citizens_%28Nova_Roma%29
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/FR:Provincia_Gallia_-_Organization_%28Nova_Roma%29
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/FR:Provincia_Gallia_-_Government_%28Nova_Roma%29
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/FR:Provincia_Gallia_-_Edits_-_En_vigueur_-_59-42_%28Nova_Roma%29
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/FR:Provincia_Gallia_-_Edits_-_En_vigueur_-_59-41_%28Nova_Roma%29
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/FR:Provincia_Gallia_-_Edits_-_En_vigueur_-_59-40_%28Nova_Roma%29
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/FR:Provincia_Gallia_-_Edits_-_En_vigueur_-_59-39_%28Nova_Roma%29
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/FR:Provincia_Gallia_-_Edits_-_En_vigueur_-_59-38_%28Nova_Roma%29
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/FR:Provincia_Gallia_-_Tabularium_Galliae_%28Nova_Roma%29
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/FR:Provincia_Gallia_-_Edits
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/FR:Provincia_Gallia_-_Droit_provincial_%28Nova_Roma%29
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/FR:Provincia_Gallia_-_Edits_-_En_vigueur_-_59-43_%28Nova_Roma%29
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Provincia_Gallia_-_Government_%28Nova_Roma%29_-_GAR_-_2760
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/FR:Provincia_Gallia_-_Government_%28Nova_Roma%29_-_GAR_-_2760
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Provincia_Gallia_-_Archives_-_Homepage_-_-_Sept07_-_%28Nova_Roma%29
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Provincia_Gallia_-_Archives_-_Homepage_-_Sept07_-_%28Nova_Roma%29
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Provincia_Gallia_-_Archives_-_Homepage_-_Oct07_-_%28Nova_Roma%29
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/FR:Provincia_Gallia_-_Archives_-_Homepage_-_Sept07_-_%28Nova_Roma%29
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/FR:Provincia_Gallia_-_Archives_-_Homepage_-_Oct07_-_%28Nova_Roma%29
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Provincia_Gallia_-_Communities_%28Nova_Roma%29
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Provincia_Gallia_-_Events_%28Nova_Roma%29
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/FR:Provincia_Gallia_-_Archives_%28Nova_Roma%29
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Provincia_Gallia_-_Government_%28Nova_Roma%29
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Provincia_Gallia_-_Archives_%28Nova_Roma%29
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Provincia_Gallia_-_Archives_-_Homepage_-_%28Nova_Roma%29
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/FR:Provincia_Gallia_-_Archives_-_Homepage_-_%28Nova_Roma%29
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Provincia_Gallia_-_History_%28Nova_Roma%29
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Provincia_Gallia_-_Links_%28Nova_Roma%29
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Provincia_Gallia_-_Praetorium_%28Nova_Roma%29
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Provincia_Gallia_-_Magistrates_%28Nova_Roma%29
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Provincia_Gallia_-_Projects_%28Nova_Roma%29




Agricola

Gaius Marius Lupus Tito Flavi Aquilae Scribae Censoris Tribunoque
Plebis salutem pluriman dicit.

Salve Aquila,

I am just very new to NR - however I want to tell you that I fully
agree with you about the construction of a temple. I also believe that
the creation of "local" small shrines should be encouraged.
When old pagan temples are not available due to the presence of
churches built on the ruins, or due to archeological restrictions, Nova
Roma could build nova templa, also very simple ones. This is a signal
of the new energy of the old religion.

Ave atque vale

C.Marius Lupus

Salve!

Hoc lege: http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Roman_calendar

Optime vale!

Agricola

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, GAIVS IVLIANVS <ivlianvs309@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete Omnes! I remember reading some where that the
> term "Dies Religiosus" was an alternate term for Dies
> Ater the unlucky day after the Kalendae, Nonae and
> Idus. Is this termology correct?! Many years ago I
> remember seeing it used in a Roman calendar used by
> the M.T.R. in Italia! Does anyone have any info on
> these two terms? Gratias vobis ago! Valete! Gaivs Ivlianvs
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>

Agricola Piscino Omnibusque sal.

I want to confirm that what you said about "the millions of Japanese
who every day offer countless acts of worship at small shrines by the
roadside..." is quite literally true.

At the university where I teach we have a small shrine next to the
front of the main office building, set back from the path and in a
sort of grove, but visible as one walks to the main door. Many times
have I seen colleagues walking up the path, when they come to the
point in front of the shrine, stop, stand erect and make a bow. It
takes more time to read than to do.

Often I have seen small coins left on statue bases, for example the
shrine guardian statues, or other places. These offerings remain
untouched until collected by the shrine workers because there is the
recognition here that they are pro sacro, to use our term.

Optime vale, amice, et valete!

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "marcushoratius" <mhoratius@...> wrote:
>
> Salve mi Agricola
>
> Exactly!
>
> Many people think of the religio Romana in terms of how it has been
> presented by Hollywood and the movie industries in other countries.
> Well, there is much to be said for the pomp that attended the sacra
> publica of the Roman State. Such displays were only part of the
> religio Romana, and I would say only a very small part of the religio
> Romana. When the Emperor of Japan goes forth on parade in full
> regalia to visit a shrine and offer worship to his divine ancestors
> this is comparable to the public displays that were once seen in
> imperial Rome. And then there are the millions of Japanese who every
> day offer countless acts of worship at small shrines by the roadside,
> near trees, in their back yards or in their homes or in cemetaries,
> and there are the thousands who each day visit the many shrines and
> temples found in the islands of Japan. All that is part of their
> religion as well. Imperial spectacle is fine, but as far as
> importance, it means little, ultimately, than the gesture of one man
> when taken out of the context of millions of worshippers who join
> with him every day.
>
> In my mind Shintoism may be the closest religion seen in the modern
> world to what can be compared to the religio Romana. As far as
> practices, one can find closer parallels in Hinduism. But you find
> in Shintoism a worship of the ancestors that I think is closer to
> Roman ideas. And there are the many lesser deities of Nature, and
> also the spirits of travellers, or ghosts if you will - the Manes who
> are remembered in those isles. There are spirits warded off by the
> sound of drums and gongs, by the laughter of festivals, by the
> lighting of candles in the dark. There are spirits whose presence are
> invoked by the sound of the flute and the graceful movement of
> dance. Then also are the greater Gods and Goddesses of the sea, and
> of the earth, of the stars and of the sky above. There is nothing in
> the Shintoism of Japan that would seem unfamiliar to a Roman.
>
> As much as I too enjoy the spectacle of a pompa, it is the simple and
> sincere worship offered by Numa Pompilius, directly between the man
> and Egeria, or directly between Faunus and Numa, and between Numa and
> Jupiter, with which I identify the religio Romana. Its simplest and
> purest form. Everything else was decoration for the benefit of the
> masses. But without that interconnection between the individual and
> the divine in Nature there was no real religio Romana. Going through
> rituals, murmuring Latin phrases that you don't really understand, is
> just superstitio. Before all else, the foundation for our religious
> tradition - whether we see it in terms of an individual or of a
> community - has got to be the discovery, recognition, interconnection
> of ourselves in the divine. Then, maybe, the Gods will once more
> walk among us.
>
> Ten days from now we will celebrate Saturnalia. We celebrate that
> Golden Era when the Gods walked among us, when the Gods were a part
> of our society, visited our homes daily. It is a time of peace when
> we recommit ourselves to bringing the Gods back into our lives and
> into our hearts. Fitting, too, Hanukkah has begun already this year,
> with our Jewish sisters and brothers remembering their ancestors and
> the roots of their religious tradition. And soon to follow our
> Christian brothers and sisters will celebrate their holidays of this
> season as well. Peace on earth, peace among men and women of good
> will, peace among the sons and daughters of Quirinus, the
> grandchildren of Mars. the great grandchildren of Jupiter, and the
> generations of Saturnus.
>
> Io Saturnalia! Io triumphe!
> Annum Novum faustum felicem tibi, mi Agricola
>
> M Moravius Piscinus
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "M. Lucretius Agricola"
> <wm_hogue@> wrote:
> >
> > Agricola Piscino sal.
> >
> > You speak rightly. The feeling that you mention leads people to do
> > this, for example. http://www.flickr.com/photos/agricola/1036241256/
> >
> > optime vale!
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "marcushoratius" <mhoratius@>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Salve mi Sexte Lucili
> > >
> > > "In ancient times (today's) temples began as sacred precincts,
> first
> > > set off and solemnized by augures, then at length they were
> > > consecrated by the pontifices, and finally temples were erected
> on
> > > them." ~ Servius, Ad Aeneis 1.446
> > >
> > >
> > > Something to consider is that our ancestors did not randomly
> choose to
> > > erect temples in just any locations. Noster Stoicus wrote:
> > >
> > > "Have you ever come upon a grove thick with venerable trees which
> > > tower above the ordinary height and by their layers of
> intertwined
> > > branches dim the light of Heaven? The loftiness of the forest,
> its
> > > quiet seclusion, the marvel of thick and unbroken shade in
> untrammeled
> > > space will impart to you a conviction of the divine." ~ Seneca,
> > > Epistula 41.3
> > >
> > > I would say that one has to hear the Gods calling, has to "feel"
> Their
> > > presence, intuit Their calling to you, and experience Them in a
> > > locus. That is where one should offer worship. Such a place
> should
> > > be set off, as a locus, its boundaries marked off by stones,
> perhaps
> > > with ribbons hung between the trees to encircle its perimeters;
> the
> > > augures erecting the templum through auspicia to sanctify the
> place.
> > > Then over time, through continues use, the locus may be made into
> a
> > > fanum, with a permanent altar, an enclosing wall, and a column on
> > > which would be an image of the God or Goddess for whom the place
> is
> > > dedicated. then some day a small aedes can be built, as a
> sacullum,
> > > and the deity invoked to send down His or Her numen to inhabit
> the
> > > place. But before we make any such plans to construct edifices,
> we
> > > must do as our ancestors and find the presence of the divine
> first.
> > >
> > > Mi Stoicus Sexte, where did Seneca advise Lucilius in that
> epistle to
> > > look for the divine?
> > >
> > > Vale et vade in pace Deorum
> > >
> > > M Moravius Piscinus
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Svm Stoicus" <phorus@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Salve!
> > > >
> > > > My opinion is that time is directing to build the Temple. Who
> has
> > > sensibility can see what happen around us. I think that Gods
> speak to
> > > us but who can notices them call?
> > > >
> > > > Vale
> > > >
> > > > Sextus Lucilius Tutor
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

A. Apollonius omnibus sal.

Hello.

I've been busy for a little while, and have just finished catching up with events in this forum. I must confess that I have not read every word of the nearly 30 digests I have just read, but I have noticed a few things I'd like to respond to, so this will be the first of a small flurry of messages from me, after which I shall go quiet again, though perhaps not for quite so long.

My friend M. Hortensia mentioned that I had once said something to her about plebiscita and "the constitution". One or two others have asked about this. I'm sorry to say that I cannot remember what she is talking about. I have, in my short life so far, said many, many things!

So I must say with regret that I am unable to explain what i meant. If, however, she can find the text of what I wrote, I am quite content for it to be published here, for it is my general rule to try not to say anything in private which I would not be prepared to face up to in public.

Alternatively, if anyone wishes to ask me specific questions about specific issues, I am quite happy to tell you what I think now, even if I cannot remember what I used to think before.




___________________________________________________________
Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with Yahoo! For Good http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/

A. Apollonius A. Tulliae sal.

>> ATS2: Corde, you rebuked me more than once, if I recall correctly,

for

>> moving from the rogatura to the praetura, but have said nothing

about moving

>> from the aedilitas to the censura.

I have said plenty about it. I have said it again and again. I said it in the very message to which this is your reply. I have said it in general terms, and I have said in in specific terms. I do not believe anyone who has read anything I have written on this subject in the last couple of months would have the least difficulty in telling what I think about someone standing for the censura without holding the praetura or the consulatus.

My fellow citizens, I invite and indeed implore you to write privately to A. Tullia and tell her whether or not I consider it acceptable for anyone to skip any step on the cursus honorum. Evidently when I tell her myself she experiences a strange lapse in her ordinarily formidable powers of comprehension.



__________________________________________________________
Sent from Yahoo! Mail - a smarter inbox http://uk.mail.yahoo.com

A. Apollonius omnibus sal.

I would like to applaud the censores for doing something which is done far too rarely in Nova Roma. They have looked beyond our written leges (without disobeying them) and done what the Romans did.

The rank of princeps senatus is not mentioned in the lex constitutiva. It is not mentioned in any lex. Not only has it never been established by a senatus consultum, but in fact a senatus consultum was once enacted specifically rejecting its creation. For these reasons, many people have said over the years that there could not be a princeps senatus.

The censores have proved those people wrong. The fact that something is not mentioned by any written legal text does not mean that it does not exist. Such an idea is totally alien to the Roman way of thinking. Of course the rank of princeps senatus exists. It existed in the ancient Roman republic, and nothing in our written law abolishes it, so of course it exists.

And in the ancient republic it was in the power of the censores, and no one else, to choose the princeps senatus. They needed no one's authority or approval. They had the power merely by virtue of being censores. And, for the same reason, the censores of Nova Roma have always had the power to choose the princeps senatus. They have simply never used it. Our censores have used it, and in doing so they have reminded us of something very important.

They have reminded us of this:

We can usually behave in a Roman way without needing to create new leges authorizing or commanding one another to do so. We can usually behave in a Roman way without fear of being criticized for exceeding our legal powers or duties. To make things happen, it is usually enough for a magistrate to go ahead and do whatever he would have done in the old republic.

I'm rather sad that I have to say "usually". I should not have to say "usually". There should not be times when we need written law to make us behave like Romans. There should not be times when our own written law prevents us from doing what Romans should do.

Let us hope that our new magistrates will follow this example set by the censores, and let us hope that it will not be too long before I can repeat that paragraph without the word "usually".




__________________________________________________________
Sent from Yahoo! Mail - a smarter inbox http://uk.mail.yahoo.com

Salvete omnes,

I'm about to depart for a weekend trip and I won't have routine
computer access until Sunday evening. May Concordia watch over you all.

Valete,

CN-EQVIT-MARINVS

A. Apollonius omnibus sal.

There seems to be total agreement that the appointment of a dictator is "worse" than the enactment of the senatus consultum ultimum. I find this worrying.

I would hope that any Roman, surveying the broad sweep of Roman republican history, would come quickly to the conclusion that the dictatura is a far more benign and time-honoured institution than the senatus consultum ultimum. Let me explain why.

Dictatores are known from the very early republic. Their appointment was almost routine. They were appointed in two types of circumstance: when there was a need for someone with consular power but neither consul was available, and when there was a need for a single individual to exercise the powers of both consules together. The dictator was the solution to both these problems because he was simply and straightforwardly what both those cases demand: two consules combined in one person. He had, in most important respects, no more and no less power than that.

Creating a dictator did not give that person the power to overthrow or to overhaul the state. It simply removed one of the traditional constraints on consular power, namely collegiality. This constraint was, however, replaced with a different one, namely a halving of the term of office. A dictator had twice the power of a consul but for half the length of time. It is, in essence, that simple.

And that is why the appointment of a dictator was almost routine. It was not taken lightly, to be sure, but it was nonetheless one among a number of problem-solving tools in the constitutional tool-box. It was often used to solve problems as mundane as the need to hold an election when no consul was available in Rome. It was used frequently and without mishap right up until the second Punic war, when idiots tried to add the constraint of collegiality - whose absence was its only real virtue - to it. This made it completely useless, and thereafter it was not used. But it is important to notice that it was abandoned not because it was too powerful and dangerous but, on the contrary, because it was no longer powerful enough: it had been made into nothing more than an unelected consulate, and therefore a dictator was no more useful than a consul.

By contrast, the senatus consultum ultimum had no long and beneficent pedigree. It was created in the late republic. It was created in times of civil disorder and perpetuated in times of civil war. Its legality was never fully accepted by the Roman people. It was regarded by both its supporters and its opponents as a mechanism for legalizing the otherwise illegal summary execution of Roman citizens without trial. It was never used for any other purpose.

So why, I ask myself, do I see lots of people accepting without question that the dictatura and the senatus consultum ultimum are both nasty and dangerous things, and that the dictatura is the worse of the pair? It is because of ignorance. But not the ignorance of the people who say these things. The ignorance of those who have made these things true.

Because when I hear people talking in this forum about the dictatura and the senatus consultum ultimum, they are talking about institutions which have almost nothing to do with ancient Rome. They are talking about constructs created less than ten years ago by the drafters of our current lex constitutiva.

In our lex constitutiva, the dictator has the power to overrule leges and to create new leges without the approval of the comitia. No dictator in Roman history ever had this power. It has no historical foundation whatsoever.

In our lex constitutiva, the senatus consultum ultimum gives the consules the power to overrule whatever leges they like for as long as they like. Even the most ardent supporter of the senatus consultum ultimum in the old republic, such as M. Tullius, would never have claimed that it had such broad effect. At most, they would have said that the consultum gave the consules the power to use lethal force to suppress imminent or actual civil disorder and to protect the republic. A very large portion of the population, probably a majority, would not even have accepted this much and would have regarded the whole institution as entirely illegal.

To have these things in our political system, when the Romans never had them in these forms, is simply ridiculous. The nearest we ever come to civil disorder is a few people saying nasty things to each other in e-mails. Our republic has no physical institutions and is therefore almost impossible to destroy or even seriously to damage. Why on earth, then, do we need these 'emergency provisions' which are far, far more sweeping, oppressive, and undemocratic than the ancient Romans, who lived in real fear of riots in the streets and massacre by invading barbarians, ever had? It is utterly ludicrous.

The senatus consultum ultimum should be expunged entirely from our leges and from our political lexicon. The dictatura should be restored to its proper historical footing. And certainly, *certainly*, neither of them should under any circumstances be used in their current form.




___________________________________________________________
Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with Yahoo! For Good http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/

A. Apollonius omnibus sal.

I was very interested to read C. Julius' recent thoughts on improving the institutions and the vitality of the sacra Romana in our community. I noticed particularly his urging that we concentrate on encouraging and cultivating the sacra privata.

This reminded me of something I have thought from time to time but have not, as far as I know, got round to saying before. I think there is something which would enormously improve the sacral and indeed the general life of the community, if it could be done.

To explain what I have in mind, let me just talk a little about the word "religio". There is a lot of misunderstanding about this word. It looks a lot like the English word "religion", the French word "religion", the Spanish word "religion", and the Italian word "religione", which all mean roughly the same thing. They do not mean the same thing as the Latin word "religio". Oh no, they do not. Not at all.

Look at the ending of the word: "-io". It's quite a common Latin ending. Look at some of the other words which end like that. I'll pick some at random from my little yellow dictionary:

"Demolitio" - the act or activity of tearing something down.
"Exspectatio" - the state or activity of waiting for something.
"Promissio" - the act or activity of promising.
"Monstratio" - the act or activity of showing something.
"Permixtio" - the state or activity of being mixed up or confused.
"Editio" - the act or activity of publishing something.
"Exploratio" - the act or activity of investigating or exploring.
"Deleriatio" - the state or activity of being mad.

Notice a theme? They are all activities or states of being. They are things to do, or things to be.

The very same is true of "religio". It is an activity or a state of being. It is not an institution, or a belief, or a set of beliefs, or anything which we understand by the modern word "religion". It is not the right word to describe the collection of beliefs, rituals, ideas, stories, institutions, buildings, &c. which we might think of as "the Roman religion".

But it is still something very important: a very important activity or state of being. It is the activity of carefully and diligently and earnestly performing the rituals and observances which ones is required by the gods, or by ancestral tradition, or by plain common sense to perform. It is the state of being in awe and reverence and amazement and devotion to the gods.

Religio is what C. Julius wants to foster and encourage in private individuals and private households with their sacra privata. That is certainly an excellent thing with which no one could wish to argue. But religio can also be alive in a whole community, and was certainly alive in the old Roman res publica.

Others may disagree, but I do not think that one need actually "believe" in the gods to feel and to display religio. I am not sure that the question of belief or non-belief is a very Roman question to ask. Some Romans thought of the gods as literal, anthropomorphic beings who could walk and talk and fight and have sex. Some Romans thought of the gods as nebulous natural or supernatural forces. Some Romans thought of the gods as manifestations of a single Platonic truth. Some Romans thought of the gods as socially useful constructs. Many probably thought more than one of these things simultaneously. Which of them believed and which disbelieved? If ten people say they believe in Juppiter but each one gives a different answer to the question "and what is Juppiter, then?", can we say that they all believe in the same thing, or in the same way? Maybe, maybe not. But I think an ancient Roman would have thought all these views perfectly compatible
with religio. And remember, religio could also mean a state of healthy fear of the gods, so even a Christian (for example) who regards the Roman gods as demons can perhaps be said to display a certain sort of religio.

How can a community come to be collectively in awe and reverence and amazement and fear of the gods? I think a substantial contribution comes from emotional attachment to things and activities associated with the gods. I think of the magnificent Easter processions of Catholic southern Europe, which members of the community join or at least watch from an age when they are too young even to understand what they are all about, and which often inspire excitement, or nostalgia in them even if they grow up to reject the theological principles espoused by their organizers. I think of the Muslim pilgrimage to Mecca and the Hindu practice of bathing in the mud of the Ganga, both activities which are performed individually by separate people but which form great collective physical affirmations of shared tradition and culture. I think of the great works of religious art in all modern traditions which inspire us with awe and admiration and make us think,
"whether I believe this or not, it is clearly something which demands respect". I think of millions of people putting up Christmas trees, lighting oil lamps for Diwali or candles for Hanukkah, giving each other presents for Eid or Chinese New Year. Aren't these the things which make communities value their religious traditions and regard their gods with awe and amazement?

And these are things which the Romans did with great gusto. They were masters of holiday-making. In the name of the gods they had ceremonies of marvellous solemnity and dignity, they had colourful and noisy processions, they had games and plays and music and dancing, they made magnificent art and architecture, they gave and received presents, and they did all manner of bizarre and ridiculous things whose origins were lost in the mists of time. No wonder they had religio.

I don't particularly "believe" in the Roman gods, or in any gods, and I don't particularly want to. But, my goodness, I would love to see Nova Roma doing all those things for them. Wouldn't it be marvellous? And if people like me were constantly exposed to the sights, sounds, and smells of the worship of the gods going on all around us and forming part of the daily life of our community, would anyone really be afraid that we would want to destroy it all simply because we think that the gods themselves probably don't exist? And if our children grew up amidst those sights and sounds and smells, joining in the processions and exchanging the gifts and going to the plays and singing the songs and making the sacrifices, would we even need to ask whether they believed in the gods? They would have religio, and that would be a fine, fine thing.

I suppose someone will burst my bubble now by pointing out that these things cost money and in any case can't be done without gathering substantial numbers of people together in the same place. Yeah, I know. But it's an aspiration worth having, even if we can't at the moment think how to make it happen. It's something for us to keep in the backs of our minds; and perhaps from time to time one of us will have a bright idea about how to do some little thing here or there which will bring a little bit more religio into the life of our community.

That's all from me for now. See you in a week or two.




___________________________________________________________
Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with Yahoo! For Good http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/

---
Salve A. Apollonius Cordus, Salvete Omnes:

You wrote:



And remember, religio could also mean a state of healthy fear of
the gods, so even a Christian (for example) who regards the Roman gods
as demons
can perhaps be said to display a certain sort of religio.

Pompeia: Perhaps you are speaking of Strict Christian fundamentalists
who might regard the Roman Gods, or anyone else's perception of the
divine, as demons. At least this is the way I interpret your words,
because I can't imagine for a moment, Corde, that you would be tarring
all Christians by the same brush. Fundamentalists of any religious
persuasion are around, no doubt...but unlikely to be in Nova Roma, so
I am not sure this aspect of your otherwise insightful discussion
applies to our res publica.

Valete
Pompeia

M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus Quiritibus et omnibus salutem
plurimam dicit: Sanctus velit vos inesse.

Hodie est ante diem VI Eidus Decembris; haec dies comitialis est:
Gaiae; Tiberno in Insula.

"The names of Acca Larentia and Gaia Taracia, or Fufetia as she is
sometimes called, are frequent in the early annals. To the former of
these after her death, but to Taracia while she still lived, the
Roman people paid distinguished honors. And that Taracia, at any
rate, was a Vestal Virgin is proved by the lex Horatia that was laid
before the people with regard to her. By this law very many honors
are bestowed on her and among them the right of giving testimony is
granted her, and that privilege is given to no other woman in the
state. The word testabilis is used in the lex Horatia itself, and
its opposite occurs in the Twelve Tablets, 'Let him be infamous and
intestibilis, or forbidden to testify.' Besides, if at the age of
forty she should wish to leave the priesthood and marry, the right
and privilege of withdrawing from the order and marrying were allowed
her, in gratitude for her generosity and kindness in presenting to
the people the campus Tiberinus, or Campus Martius as it was later
called." ~ Geliius, Noctes Atticae 7.7.1-4


AUC 363 / 390 BCE

Following the Gallic sack of the City, Camillus, "as a man of great
religious sensibility, was to bring before the Senate matters related
to the immortal Gods; the following decree was the result: all
shrines were to be rebuilt, marked with boundary stones and purified
because they had been in enemy hands, the method of purification was
to be sought in the Sibylline Oracles by the duumviri sacris
faciundis (Livy 5.50)." The rest of the City was built
haphazardly. "Roof tiles were supplied at public expense, while
those who pledged to finish construction within a year's time were
allowed to take wood and stone from wherever they could find them.
The haste with which they worked resulted in an irregular street
plan, as they built over the empty areas without attention to the
exact boundaries between their own land and other's property. This is
the reason why the old sewer system, which originally followed its
course through public lands, now passes in many places beneath
private dwellings, and the result is a city that resembles one built
piecemeal rather than laid out according to a master plan." ~ Titus
Livius 5.55

What else happened in their haste to rebuild the City is that the
Romans removed all the debris and threw it into the Tibur River.
This is said to have created a logjam on which silt then deposited to
form the Insula. It was some time in the second century then that a
Temple was erected for Tiburnus on the Insula.

Our thought for today is from Epictetus' Enchiridion 45

"Does any one bathe hastily? Do not say that he does it ill, but
hastily. Does any one drink much wine? Do not say that he does ill,
but that he drinks a great deal. For unless you perfectly understand
his motives, how should you know if he acts ill? Thus you will not
risk yielding to any appearances but such as you fully comprehend."

Salvete omnes

Alas, some quotations come in handy all too often.

"The superstitious man fears the Gods, the religious man reveres Them
as he would his parents, for They are good, more apt to forgive than
punish." ~ M. Terentius Varro, Frag 47 Card.

Di Deaeque vos bene ament
Piscinus


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "pompeia_minucia_tiberia"
<pompeia_minucia_tiberia@...> wrote:

>
> ---
> Salve A. Apollonius Cordus, Salvete Omnes:
>
> You wrote:
>
>
>
> And remember, religio could also mean a state of healthy fear of
> the gods, so even a Christian (for example) who regards the Roman

gods

> as demons
> can perhaps be said to display a certain sort of religio.
>
> Pompeia: Perhaps you are speaking of Strict Christian

fundamentalists

> who might regard the Roman Gods, or anyone else's perception of the
> divine, as demons. At least this is the way I interpret your words,
> because I can't imagine for a moment, Corde, that you would be

tarring

> all Christians by the same brush. Fundamentalists of any religious
> persuasion are around, no doubt...but unlikely to be in Nova Roma,

so

> I am not sure this aspect of your otherwise insightful discussion
> applies to our res publica.
>
> Valete
> Pompeia
>

G. Petronius Dexter M. Hortensiae Maiori S.P.D.

> In Rome, Gallia, Dacia, Germania, there are existing Roman temples
> that the city/state owns, that the cultores could ask to use. It
> happens in Greece with YSEE.

In France Gallo-roman temples and Gallic menhirs are now historic
monuments and Catholic Church would not accept, and certainly State,
that these temples become again holly places of cult. In France we do
not have legal representants of pagan cults. They are some druids but
all people think them gentle dreamers...

In France we are lay people and religions are separated with state
but state definied religions and only accepted the 3 monotheisms
(judaism, christianity and islamism) all the others are sects or
sectarian movements and, of course, forbidden by the laws. Buddhism
is more a philosophy than a religion.

> Of course no such thing exists in the Americas, North and South. At
> the same time the Americas have many wonderful wild places of
> grandeur, perfect places for worship.

In the Americas you have the magnificent pyramids of Mexico and
marvelous temples of Peru... but these deities were not Roman. And in
North American do not you have some holly trees ? or sacred places
for Indian cults ? I do not believe... all men, and Indian too, had
places for Gods. Perhaps in New York you have a very old and ancient
place of a misterious divinity... Hollywood is not an holly wood ?

Cura ut valeas.

G.Dexter

Q. Caecilius Metellus Pompeiae Minuciae Straboni salutem.

>> And remember, religio could also mean a state of healthy fear of the gods,
>> so even a Christian (for example) who regards the Roman gods as demons can
>> perhaps be said to display a certain sort of religio.
>
> Pompeia: Perhaps you are speaking of Strict Christian fundamentalists who
> might regard the Roman Gods, or anyone else's perception of the divine, as
> demons. At least this is the way I interpret your words, because I can't
> imagine for a moment, Corde, that you would be tarring all Christians by the
> same brush. Fundamentalists of any religious persuasion are around, no
> doubt...but unlikely to be in Nova Roma, so I am not sure this aspect of your
> otherwise insightful discussion applies to our res publica.

Of course, I'm not my good friend Cordus, so I can't speak for him. However,
when I read that same stretch of finely written text, I gathered something
different as to what was meant by the statement. Your interpretation, on
reading it, isn't unreasonable, certainly; I just came to a different thought.

As I read it, I took Cordus as saying the even *a* Christian (not anyone in
particular) who regards Roman deities as demons could "display a certain
religio", in that such a person could naturally fear them (as, perhaps, some
Christians fear Satan).

I'm naturally not certain if my interpretation is correct, or if what you stated
is correct, or what exactly is the correct interpretation of Cordus' statement,
but I just put it out there as another way to read things.

Cato C. Petronio Dextero sal.

Salve.

Interstingly enough, there is not a single recorded instance of any
kind of ancient religious sacred space on the island of Manhattan.
The local tribes simply used to fish and trade here, but apparently
didn't worship here in any kind of way that was noticed or remarked
upon by themselves, their neighbors, or the European settlers who
arrived here.

It is often remarked than New York City (or New Amsterdam, originally)
is the only major city on the Eastern seaboard of the United States
that was *not* founded by a group with religious or political
motivation. From its earliest incarnation it existed solely as a
point of commerce.

Vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Petronius Dexter"
<jfarnoud94@...> wrote:

>
> G. Petronius Dexter M. Hortensiae Maiori S.P.D.
>
> > In Rome, Gallia, Dacia, Germania, there are existing Roman temples
> > that the city/state owns, that the cultores could ask to use. It
> > happens in Greece with YSEE.
>
> In France Gallo-roman temples and Gallic menhirs are now historic
> monuments and Catholic Church would not accept, and certainly State,
> that these temples become again holly places of cult. In France we do
> not have legal representants of pagan cults. They are some druids but
> all people think them gentle dreamers...
>
> In France we are lay people and religions are separated with state
> but state definied religions and only accepted the 3 monotheisms
> (judaism, christianity and islamism) all the others are sects or
> sectarian movements and, of course, forbidden by the laws. Buddhism
> is more a philosophy than a religion.
>
> > Of course no such thing exists in the Americas, North and South. At
> > the same time the Americas have many wonderful wild places of
> > grandeur, perfect places for worship.
>
> In the Americas you have the magnificent pyramids of Mexico and
> marvelous temples of Peru... but these deities were not Roman. And in
> North American do not you have some holly trees ? or sacred places
> for Indian cults ? I do not believe... all men, and Indian too, had
> places for Gods. Perhaps in New York you have a very old and ancient
> place of a misterious divinity... Hollywood is not an holly wood ?
>
> Cura ut valeas.
>
> G.Dexter
>

---Salve Metellus Pontifex, Salvete Omnes:

Without prejudice:
A careful reading, Metelle, with respect, of my response to Cordus
would suggest that you and I are clearly on the *same page* ,to coin a
phrase.

Vale optime (and you know this as you are very dear to me regardless
of any circumstance)

Pompeia






In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Q. Caecilius Metellus"
<postumianus@...> wrote:

>
> Q. Caecilius Metellus Pompeiae Minuciae Straboni salutem.
>
> >> And remember, religio could also mean a state of healthy fear of

the gods,

> >> so even a Christian (for example) who regards the Roman gods as

demons can

> >> perhaps be said to display a certain sort of religio.
> >
> > Pompeia: Perhaps you are speaking of Strict Christian

fundamentalists who

> > might regard the Roman Gods, or anyone else's perception of the

divine, as

> > demons. At least this is the way I interpret your words, because I

can't

> > imagine for a moment, Corde, that you would be tarring all

Christians by the

> > same brush. Fundamentalists of any religious persuasion are around, no
> > doubt...but unlikely to be in Nova Roma, so I am not sure this

aspect of your

> > otherwise insightful discussion applies to our res publica.
>
> Of course, I'm not my good friend Cordus, so I can't speak for him.

However,

> when I read that same stretch of finely written text, I gathered

something

> different as to what was meant by the statement. Your

interpretation, on

> reading it, isn't unreasonable, certainly; I just came to a

different thought.

>
> As I read it, I took Cordus as saying the even *a* Christian (not

anyone in

> particular) who regards Roman deities as demons could "display a

certain

> religio", in that such a person could naturally fear them (as,

perhaps, some

> Christians fear Satan).
>
> I'm naturally not certain if my interpretation is correct, or if

what you stated

> is correct, or what exactly is the correct interpretation of Cordus'

statement,

> but I just put it out there as another way to read things.
>

Salvete,

My little green book (a Latin grammar by T. Pekkanen) tells about
word forming in Latin that:

-forms ending -tio / -sio (both with long o) are substantives that
are derived from verbs and that they are expressions of abstract
action or state of being
-for example:
invenire (to invent) -> inventio (invention)
scribo, scripsi, scriptum (to write) -> scriptio (writing)
possideo, -sedi, -sessum (to own) -> possessio (possession)

Looking at the examples Cordus gave, those all are either -tio or -
sio words, but I'm too little of linguist to say if religio is also
of the same group. Perhaps if someone has Allen's Vox Latina, he/she
could see if there are common changes with t or s wich would produce
g as a result.

Valete,

On 8.12.2007, at 12:00, Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> 1a. De religione
> Posted by: "A. Apollonius Cordus"
> a_apollonius_cordus@... a_apollonius_cordus
> Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 6:23 pm ((PST))
>
> To explain what I have in mind, let me just talk a little about the
> word "religio". There is a lot of misunderstanding about this
> word. It looks a lot like the English word "religion", the French
> word "religion", the Spanish word "religion", and the Italian word
> "religione", which all mean roughly the same thing. They do not
> mean the same thing as the Latin word "religio". Oh no, they do
> not. Not at all.
>
> Look at the ending of the word: "-io". It's quite a common Latin
> ending. Look at some of the other words which end like that. I'll
> pick some at random from my little yellow dictionary:
>
> "Demolitio" - the act or activity of tearing something down.
> "Exspectatio" - the state or activity of waiting for something.
> "Promissio" - the act or activity of promising.
> "Monstratio" - the act or activity of showing something.
> "Permixtio" - the state or activity of being mixed up or confused.
> "Editio" - the act or activity of publishing something.
> "Exploratio" - the act or activity of investigating or exploring.
> "Deleriatio" - the state or activity of being mad.
>
> Notice a theme? They are all activities or states of being. They
> are things to do, or things to be.
>
> The very same is true of "religio". It is an activity or a state
> of being. It is not an institution, or a belief, or a set of
> beliefs, or anything which we understand by the modern word
> "religion". It is not the right word to describe the collection of
> beliefs, rituals, ideas, stories, institutions, buildings, &c.
> which we might think of as "the Roman religion".


C. Curius Saturninus
(Mikko Sillanpää)

Senator - Aedilis Plebis - Propraetor Provinciae Thules
Rector Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova

e-mail: c.curius@...
www.academiathules.org
thule.novaroma.org

Salvete Omnes! Okay with this discussion, well WHEN do
the Dies Religiosi occur?! I understand that no
private rites are to be performed at ones Lararium?!
Is this the same as well on Dies Atri?! Valete! Gaivs
Ivlianvs
--- "M. Lucretius Agricola" <wm_hogue@...>
wrote:

> Salve!
>
> Hoc lege: http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Roman_calendar
>
> Optime vale!
>
> Agricola
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, GAIVS IVLIANVS
> <ivlianvs309@...> wrote:
> >
> > Salvete Omnes! I remember reading some where that
> the
> > term "Dies Religiosus" was an alternate term for
> Dies
> > Ater the unlucky day after the Kalendae, Nonae and
> > Idus. Is this termology correct?! Many years ago I
> > remember seeing it used in a Roman calendar used
> by
> > the M.T.R. in Italia! Does anyone have any info
> on
> > these two terms? Gratias vobis ago! Valete! Gaivs
> Ivlianvs
> >
> >
> >
>

____________________________________________________________________________________

> > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
> > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
> >
>
>
>

____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

Salvete Omnes! Does anyone happen to know WHICH type
of the Roman red Pileus was worn at the Saturnalia by
everyone?! Was it the Phrygian type, or the egg shape
pointed one?! Or were both worn according to ones
preference? And was it RED in color? I have read that
when a slave was freed the Pileus was undyed and made
of felt. Valete! Gaivs Ivlianvs


____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

Maior Catoni Dexteroque sal;
It' quite interesting. I lived in Manhattan for many years & when
you mentioned this, I immediately thought of the great Hudson river,
which at one time had been teeming with fish and wildlife. YOu need
a shamanic point of view. That's all.

The local Indians Mahicans & Lenape belonged to the Iroquois
Confederacy.

http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/tserve/eighteen/ekeyinfo/natcult.
htm
or click here: http://tinyurl.com/yqb6re

[In the Iroquois theogony] there seem to have been three classes of
supernatural phenomena: spirits, ghosts of the dead, and the gods.
In addition there was a Great Spirit, together with his satanic
counterpart.

. Special wintertime feasts were held for the ghosts, who were
thought to participate unseen in the dancing and the games; they
also accompanied raiding parties, even though they could only watch
and not fight.

Peter Farb, Man's Rise to Civilization as Shown by the Indians of
North America from Primeval Times to the Coming of the Industrial
State (New York: Dutton, 1968), 107.

> Salve.
>
> Interstingly enough, there is not a single recorded instance of any
> kind of ancient religious sacred space on the island of Manhattan.
> The local tribes simply used to fish and trade here, but apparently
> didn't worship here in any kind of way that was noticed or remarked
> upon by themselves, their neighbors, or the European settlers who
> arrived here.
>
> It is often remarked than New York City (or New Amsterdam,

originally)

> is the only major city on the Eastern seaboard of the United States
> that was *not* founded by a group with religious or political
> motivation. From its earliest incarnation it existed solely as a
> point of commerce.
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Petronius Dexter"
> <jfarnoud94@> wrote:
> >
> > G. Petronius Dexter M. Hortensiae Maiori S.P.D.
> >
> > > In Rome, Gallia, Dacia, Germania, there are existing Roman

temples

> > > that the city/state owns, that the cultores could ask to use.

It

> > > happens in Greece with YSEE.
> >
> > In France Gallo-roman temples and Gallic menhirs are now

historic

> > monuments and Catholic Church would not accept, and certainly

State,

> > that these temples become again holly places of cult. In France

we do

> > not have legal representants of pagan cults. They are some

druids but

> > all people think them gentle dreamers...
> >
> > In France we are lay people and religions are separated with

state

> > but state definied religions and only accepted the 3 monotheisms
> > (judaism, christianity and islamism) all the others are sects or
> > sectarian movements and, of course, forbidden by the laws.

Buddhism

> > is more a philosophy than a religion.
> >
> > > Of course no such thing exists in the Americas, North and

South. At

> > > the same time the Americas have many wonderful wild places of
> > > grandeur, perfect places for worship.
> >
> > In the Americas you have the magnificent pyramids of Mexico and
> > marvelous temples of Peru... but these deities were not Roman.

And in

> > North American do not you have some holly trees ? or sacred

places

> > for Indian cults ? I do not believe... all men, and Indian too,

had

> > places for Gods. Perhaps in New York you have a very old and

ancient

> > place of a misterious divinity... Hollywood is not an holly

wood ?

> >
> > Cura ut valeas.
> >
> > G.Dexter
> >
>

Salvete Romani et Omnes! I'm conducting a little
survey to ask how many Romani out there will be
wearing the Pileus for the 7 days of the
Saturnalia???!!! I certainly plan on doing so and on
the first day of the Saturnalia at my meal time for
Cena I will also wear the Synthesis! The Eidus and the
Saturnalia are rapidly approaching us and I indeed
hope that our citizens and Romani in Italia will be
with me in reviving this delightful custom and wear
the Red Pileus as part of their celebration!!! Bene
Valete! Frater Gaivs Ivlivs Ivlianvs, PGI


____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

Salve Gaius Petronius!:
It's been a LONG TIME since I had the chance of writing in French (or Italian, for all that matters) so every time I try another language, English comes out. I hope I'll be able to make some sense of it.
You are quite right about sacred places in South America (as well as some other places in Amerique du Nord, like Mexico). Those Deities are something completely different from the Roman ones, although They still make their presence be felt. I'm not quite sure whether it has something to do with shamanic practices, or rather with a "egregoric" (borrowing the word from Chaos Magic) kind of "energy" (for lack of a better explanation). Still, as I have discussed many times in other forums, we, European descendants born in a foreign land, might have a rough time when connecting to other beliefs but the ones supported by mainstrean society.
Local spirits, somehow, are still alive. Take the Pachamama worship, still celebrated in most of South America on August 1st, every single year.
But also our own ancestors' Deities can express their voices, through our blood and lineage. And finding a suitable place for local worship, like Moravius Piscinus has so wonderfully expressed it, in his mail sent on December 7th, might not be so difficult, if one actually strives to connect with each specific Deity.
Here, in Buenos Aires, we have a wonderful Botanical Garden, built during the late 1800's. Many "foreigner" species from Europe were brought, including an oak whic must be at least 100 years old. This old Oak has become our "private" altar, no matter how many strange looks we, my husband and I, might get when pouring ale and bits of grain bread whenever we can.
There is another point, which comes to politics. Here, as an example, we have a Ministery of Foreign Affairs and Cult, which regulates each religion or branch which is allowed to build temples and perform rituals. So far, as Gaius Petronius has expressed, Pagan/non Patriarchal-Monotheist religions, are not allowed publicly. Not, at least, until they might gather a significant number of members and dutifully register at the aforesaid Ministery.
So, the main question might be, what can we actually do to be acknowledged as a bona fide religion in each country?. How Nova Roma, as an organization, might eventually help towards this goal?.
Valete!!
Gaia Iulia Agrippa.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gaius Petronius Dexter" <jfarnoud94@...>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2007 2:11 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Real temples


> G. Petronius Dexter M. Hortensiae Maiori S.P.D.
>
> > In Rome, Gallia, Dacia, Germania, there are existing Roman temples
> > that the city/state owns, that the cultores could ask to use. It
> > happens in Greece with YSEE.
>
> In France Gallo-roman temples and Gallic menhirs are now historic
> monuments and Catholic Church would not accept, and certainly State,
> that these temples become again holly places of cult. In France we do
> not have legal representants of pagan cults. They are some druids but
> all people think them gentle dreamers...
>
> In France we are lay people and religions are separated with state
> but state definied religions and only accepted the 3 monotheisms
> (judaism, christianity and islamism) all the others are sects or
> sectarian movements and, of course, forbidden by the laws. Buddhism
> is more a philosophy than a religion.
>
> > Of course no such thing exists in the Americas, North and South. At
> > the same time the Americas have many wonderful wild places of
> > grandeur, perfect places for worship.
>
> In the Americas you have the magnificent pyramids of Mexico and
> marvelous temples of Peru... but these deities were not Roman. And in
> North American do not you have some holly trees ? or sacred places
> for Indian cults ? I do not believe... all men, and Indian too, had
> places for Gods. Perhaps in New York you have a very old and ancient
> place of a misterious divinity... Hollywood is not an holly wood ?
>
> Cura ut valeas.
>
> G.Dexter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.17/1178 - Release Date: 08/12/07 11:59 a.m.
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve!

Follow the "calendar" link on the main page to:
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Fasti_MMDCCLX

Optime vale!

Agricola

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, GAIVS IVLIANVS <ivlianvs309@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete Omnes! Okay with this discussion, well WHEN do
> the Dies Religiosi occur?! I understand that no
> private rites are to be performed at ones Lararium?!
> Is this the same as well on Dies Atri?! Valete! Gaivs
> Ivlianvs
> --- "M. Lucretius Agricola" <wm_hogue@...>
> wrote:
>
> > Salve!
> >
> > Hoc lege: http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Roman_calendar
> >
> > Optime vale!
> >
> > Agricola
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, GAIVS IVLIANVS
> > <ivlianvs309@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Salvete Omnes! I remember reading some where that
> > the
> > > term "Dies Religiosus" was an alternate term for
> > Dies
> > > Ater the unlucky day after the Kalendae, Nonae and
> > > Idus. Is this termology correct?! Many years ago I
> > > remember seeing it used in a Roman calendar used
> > by
> > > the M.T.R. in Italia! Does anyone have any info
> > on
> > > these two terms? Gratias vobis ago! Valete! Gaivs
> > Ivlianvs
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
> > > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> Be a better friend, newshound, and
> know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
>

Cato M. Hortensiae Maiori sal.

Salvete.

I think the Hudson still teems with wildlife and what might generously
be considered "fish" in that they're mostly scaly and probably have
several fins...it's the multiple heads that throw people off :-)

I didn't mean that NYC could not be considered some kind of sacred
space, but that there is no evidence - written, physical, or in any
local oral tradition - that marks any place on the island as having
any kind of historical spiritual importance. There is evidence of
habitation and importance as a commercial focal point - primarily for
sewant, or wampum - since Paleolithic times, but nothing else.

The inhabitants when the Dutch showed up, the Manhattoes Indians, used
Inwood Park as a hunting ground, so I guess that might be considered
special in some way, but apparently they weren't very good at hunting.

Vale,

Cato

L. Livia Plauta Apolloni et omnibus sal.

I'm sorry to have disappeared from this list for a while. It's a busy
period for me and and after my trip I was overwhelmed by the deluge
of messages, so that I barely had time to read, but not to respond.

But I want to thank Apollonius Cordus, because he expressed the main
reason why I joined Nova Roma, but worded it a thousand times better
than I would have been able to (quote below).

I will certainly try to do all I can to make this happen.



Apollonius Cordus scripsit:
(start quote)

> And these are things which the Romans did with great gusto. They

were masters of holiday-making. In the name of the gods they had
ceremonies of marvellous solemnity and dignity, they had colourful
and noisy processions, they had games and plays and music and
dancing, they made magnificent art and architecture, they gave and
received presents, and they did all manner of bizarre and ridiculous
things whose origins were lost in the mists of time. No wonder they
had religio.

>
> I don't particularly "believe" in the Roman gods, or in any gods,

and I don't particularly want to. But, my goodness, I would love to
see Nova Roma doing all those things for them. Wouldn't it be
marvellous? And if people like me were constantly exposed to the
sights, sounds, and smells of the worship of the gods going on all
around us and forming part of the daily life of our community, would
anyone really be afraid that we would want to destroy it all simply
because we think that the gods themselves probably don't exist? And
if our children grew up amidst those sights and sounds and smells,
joining in the processions and exchanging the gifts and going to the
plays and singing the songs and making the sacrifices, would we even
need to ask whether they believed in the gods? They would have
religio, and that would be a fine, fine thing.

>

(end quote)

Valete omnes!

Salvete Gaia Iulia et Gai Petroni:
it's wonderful to hear about practices in Buenos Aires, thank you:)
Are there many many groups in Argentina? I agree with you the best
way is to start forming a pan-pagan organization, for with numbers
you get representation.

In Europe I've watched the Greek Polytheists, YSEE, in Greece work
via court rulings, for official recognition.
http://www.ysee.gr/index-eng.php

There is EU law to help them and it would help the Gallic cultores
as well. Dexter, if you want to, join up with the Druids and form a
pan-pagan French group and talk with YSEE.

On the other hand if you don't have a passion for organizing. Find a
less famous Roman temple and have ceremonies there or in a sacred
wood if there are any left in Brittany with the Druids.

If they mention Rome in a bad way, tell them we didn't destroy the
Druids;-). Hibernia (where I lived) and Alba were Druid strongholds
with no Romans & there are none today, sadly.
bene valete in pacem deorum
Marca Hortensia Maior

> Here, in Buenos Aires, we have a wonderful Botanical Garden, built

during the late 1800's. Many "foreigner" species from Europe were
brought, including an oak whic must be at least 100 years old. This
old Oak has become our "private" altar, no matter how many strange
looks we, my husband and I, might get when pouring ale and bits of
grain bread whenever we can.

> So, the main question might be, what can we actually do to be

acknowledged as a bona fide religion in each country?. How Nova
Roma, as an organization, might eventually help towards this goal?.

> Valete!!
> Gaia Iulia Agrippa.
>
>

Salve,

please help me waht is the Pileus and the Synthesis. It sounds interesting .


Thank You Adriano Rota


----- Original Message ----
From: GAIVS IVLIANVS <ivlianvs309@...>
To: nova-roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 8, 2007 1:25:54 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Wearing the Pileus at Saturnalia Survey!

Salvete Romani et Omnes! I'm conducting a little
survey to ask how many Romani out there will be
wearing the Pileus for the 7 days of the
Saturnalia?? ?!!! I certainly plan on doing so and on
the first day of the Saturnalia at my meal time for
Cena I will also wear the Synthesis! The Eidus and the
Saturnalia are rapidly approaching us and I indeed
hope that our citizens and Romani in Italia will be
with me in reviving this delightful custom and wear
the Red Pileus as part of their celebration! !! Bene
Valete! Frater Gaivs Ivlivs Ivlianvs, PGI

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo com/r/hs





____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cato Adriano Rotae sal.

Salvete.

"PILEUS, The pileus (plural, pilei), also pilleus or pilleum, was, in
Ancient Greece and Rome, a brimless, felt cap, somewhat similar to a
fez. (The pilleolus was a smaller cap, similar to a skullcap.) It was
especially associated with manumitted slaves which wore it upon
liberation. The pileus became emblematic, especially popular in the
18th and 19th Centuries (when it was often called a "liberty cap" or
Phrygian cap), of liberty and freedom from bondage, appearing on
statuary and on heraldic devices." - Wikipedia

"SYNTHESIS, a garment frequently worn at dinner, and sometimes also on
other occasions. As it was inconvenient to wear the toga at table on
account of its many folds, it was customary to have dresses especially
appropriated to this purpose, called vestes coenatoriae, or coenatoria
(Mart. X.87.12, xiv.135; Petr. 21), accubitoria (Petr. 30), or
Syntheses. The Synthesis is commonly explained to be a loose kind of
robe, like the Pallium; but Becker (Gallus, vol. I p37) supposes from
a comparison of a passage of Dion Cass. (lxiii.13) with one of
Suetonius (Ner. 51) describing the dress of Nero, that it must have
been a kind of tunic, an indumentum rather than an amictus [Amictus].
That it was, however, an easy and comfortable kind of dress, as we
would say, seems to be evident from its use at table above mentioned,
and also from its being worn by all classes at the Saturnalia, a
season of universal relaxation and enjoyment (Mart. XIV.1, 141,
vi.24). More than this respecting its form we cannot say; it was
usually dyed with some colour (Mart. ii.46, x.29), and was not white
like the toga." - Smith's Dictionary

Vale,

Cato

M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus Quiritibus et omnibus salutem
plurimam dicit: Di vos inculumes custodiant

Hodie est ante diem V Eidus Decembris; haec dies comitialis est:
Mesonyctium

For the Mesonyctium, a loose and rather modernistic interpretation of
a portion of Carmen LXIII by Catullus pertaining to this Vigil of
Attis.

For the entire translation visit
http://rudy.negenborn.net/catullus/text2/e63.htm


"And here before we start, before you all I'll prove my mother-love,
I'll tear my own balls off for MOTHER DEATH, for MOTHER DEATH"
So down he bent, and with the sharpened blade of a bayonet
Sliced out his tree of life, root and all.
Attis brayed like an electrocuted mule,
Attis bled like a slit-throated bull,
Then watched his brothers emulate.

Men no more, trailing dark red rivulets,
In which the strangest stalks took root,
They charged as one mad rushing troop
Into the forest's deeper gloom
On and up towards the mother lair, the mountaintop.
All night they trampled down the ferns,
All night they scrambled over rocks,
All night they tore past thorns and grizzled bark,
All night they hollered, sang and screamed,
Banged out tunes with hollowed shins on tambourines,
Till their lungs were raw and quit
And their amphetamine insanity was spent.
Then tripping up and staggering round
Like squads of wet-brain, park-bench drunks,
They fell to earth, and took the land of nod.


Our thought for today is taken from Seneca, Epistle 41:

"If you see a man who is not terrified in the midst of dangers,
untouched by desires, happy in adversity, peaceful amid the storm,
who looks down upon men from a higher plane, and views the Gods on a
footing of equality, will not a feeling of reverence for him steal
over you, will you not say: 'This quality is too great and too lofty
to be regarded as resembling this petty body in which it dwells? A
divine power has descended upon that man'."

>
> A. Tullia Scholastica C. Curio Saturnino quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque
> bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
>
>
> Salvete,
>
> My little green book (a Latin grammar by T. Pekkanen) tells about
> word forming in Latin that:
>
> -forms ending -tio / -sio (both with long o) are substantives that
> are derived from verbs and that they are expressions of abstract
> action or state of being
> -for example:
> invenire (to invent) -> inventio (invention)
> scribo, scripsi, scriptum (to write) -> scriptio (writing)
> possideo, -sedi, -sessum (to own) -> possessio (possession)
>
> Looking at the examples Cordus gave, those all are either -tio or -
> sio words, but I'm too little of linguist to say if religio is also
> of the same group. Perhaps if someone has Allen's Vox Latina, he/she
> could see if there are common changes with t or s wich would produce
> g as a result.
>
> ATS: The OLD says religio is from ligare, [strengthened to religare, to
> tie, to restrain, etc.], or from legere, select, read. The g is therefore
> part of the root, not the abstract noun termination. The ending ­io is
> another of the abstract noun endings, just as in legio from legere and regio
> from regere. -Tio is also in this group, the source of the English suffix
> ­tion.
>
> Valete,
>
> On 8.12.2007, at 12:00, Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
>> > 1a. De religione
>> > Posted by: "A. Apollonius Cordus"
>> > a_apollonius_cordus@... <mailto:a_apollonius_cordus%40yahoo.co.uk>
>> a_apollonius_cordus
>> > Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 6:23 pm ((PST))
>> >
>> > To explain what I have in mind, let me just talk a little about the
>> > word "religio". There is a lot of misunderstanding about this
>> > word. It looks a lot like the English word "religion", the French
>> > word "religion", the Spanish word "religion", and the Italian word
>> > "religione", which all mean roughly the same thing. They do not
>> > mean the same thing as the Latin word "religio". Oh no, they do
>> > not. Not at all.
>> >
>> > Look at the ending of the word: "-io". It's quite a common Latin
>> > ending. Look at some of the other words which end like that. I'll
>> > pick some at random from my little yellow dictionary:
>> >
>> > "Demolitio" - the act or activity of tearing something down.
>> > "Exspectatio" - the state or activity of waiting for something.
>> > "Promissio" - the act or activity of promising.
>> > "Monstratio" - the act or activity of showing something.
>> > "Permixtio" - the state or activity of being mixed up or confused.
>> > "Editio" - the act or activity of publishing something.
>> > "Exploratio" - the act or activity of investigating or exploring.
>> > "Deleriatio" - the state or activity of being mad.
>> >
>> > Notice a theme? They are all activities or states of being. They
>> > are things to do, or things to be.
>> >
>> > The very same is true of "religio". It is an activity or a state
>> > of being. It is not an institution, or a belief, or a set of
>> > beliefs, or anything which we understand by the modern word
>> > "religion". It is not the right word to describe the collection of
>> > beliefs, rituals, ideas, stories, institutions, buildings, &c.
>> > which we might think of as "the Roman religion".
>
> C. Curius Saturninus
> (Mikko Sillanpää)
>
> Senator - Aedilis Plebis - Propraetor Provinciae Thules
> Rector Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
>
> e-mail: c.curius@... <mailto:c.curius%40academiathules.org>
> www.academiathules.org
> thule.novaroma.org
>
> Vale, et valete.
>
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodie est ante septimanem II diem natalem Christi.


O Radix Jesse, qui stas in signum populorum, super quem continebunt
reges os suum, quem Gentes deprecabuntur: veni ad liberandum nos, jam
noli tardare. (O Root of Jesse, which standest for an ensign of the
people, at Whom the kings shall shut their mouths, Whom the Gentiles
shall seek, come to deliver us, do not tarry.)

"And there shall come forth a rod out of the root of Jesse, and a
flower shall rise up out of his root." - Isaiah 11:1


O Clavis David, et sceptrum domus Israel; qui aperis, et nemo claudit;
claudis, et nemo aperit: veni, et educ vinctum de domo carceris,
sedentem in tenebris, et umbra mortis. (O Key of David, and Sceptre
of the house of Israel, that openeth and no man shutteth, and shutteth
and no man openeth, come to liberate the prisoner from the prison, and
them that sit in darkness, and in the shadow of death.)

"And I will lay the key of the house of David upon his shoulder: and
he shall open, and none shall shut: and he shall shut, and none shall
open." - Isaiah 22:22


In mense autem sexto missus est angelus Gabrihel a Deo in civitatem
Galilaeae cui nomen Nazareth ad virginem desponsatam viro cui nomen
erat Ioseph de domo David et nomen virginis Maria. Et ingressus
angelus ad eam dixit ave gratia plena Dominus tecum benedicta tu in
mulieribus. Quae cum vidisset turbata est in sermone eius et
cogitabat qualis esset ista salutatio. Et ait angelus ei ne timeas
Maria invenisti enim gratiam apud Deum. Ecce concipies in utero et
paries filium et vocabis nomen eius Iesum.


Valete bene in expectio Christi!

Cato

M Moravius Piscinus carissimae amicae salutem plurimam dicit:

Et te, Terra, precor leviter super ossa residas, sentiat ut pietas
praemia quae meruit, et quicumque suis sincere praestat honorem,
felicem cursum perferat ad superos.

Mother Earth, indeed to You I pray, settle lightly on these bones, as
he knew that piety is the reward of he who merits it, and whoever
sincerely stands out in performing his own pious duties may be carried
on that happy path to the Gods above.

My sincere condolences goes out to you, mia amica. May your father's
Lares now guide him on his journey.

T.Flavius Aquila G. Equiti Cato salutem plurimam dicit

Salve Senator Cato,

may I kindly remind you, that as a senator you have to honour the Roman Gods, ideally also in your private domus,
but at least in the public of our res publica !
Your eMail might be seen by practitioner of the Religio Romana as Christian Propaganda or as a missionary try and
they might feel offended.If possible, keep your Christianity in the privacy of your domus.

Vale bene
Titus Flavius Aquila
Scriba Censoris
Tribunus Plebis designatus

----- Ursprüngliche Mail ----
Von: Gaius Equitius Cato <mlcinnyc@...>
An: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Gesendet: Sonntag, den 9. Dezember 2007, 10:21:38 Uhr
Betreff: [Nova-Roma] a.s. II diem Natalem Christi

OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodie est ante septimanem II diem natalem Christi.

O Radix Jesse, qui stas in signum populorum, super quem continebunt
reges os suum, quem Gentes deprecabuntur: veni ad liberandum nos, jam
noli tardare. (O Root of Jesse, which standest for an ensign of the
people, at Whom the kings shall shut their mouths, Whom the Gentiles
shall seek, come to deliver us, do not tarry.)

"And there shall come forth a rod out of the root of Jesse, and a
flower shall rise up out of his root." - Isaiah 11:1

O Clavis David, et sceptrum domus Israel; qui aperis, et nemo claudit;
claudis, et nemo aperit: veni, et educ vinctum de domo carceris,
sedentem in tenebris, et umbra mortis. (O Key of David, and Sceptre
of the house of Israel, that openeth and no man shutteth, and shutteth
and no man openeth, come to liberate the prisoner from the prison, and
them that sit in darkness, and in the shadow of death.)

"And I will lay the key of the house of David upon his shoulder: and
he shall open, and none shall shut: and he shall shut, and none shall
open." - Isaiah 22:22

In mense autem sexto missus est angelus Gabrihel a Deo in civitatem
Galilaeae cui nomen Nazareth ad virginem desponsatam viro cui nomen
erat Ioseph de domo David et nomen virginis Maria. Et ingressus
angelus ad eam dixit ave gratia plena Dominus tecum benedicta tu in
mulieribus. Quae cum vidisset turbata est in sermone eius et
cogitabat qualis esset ista salutatio. Et ait angelus ei ne timeas
Maria invenisti enim gratiam apud Deum. Ecce concipies in utero et
paries filium et vocabis nomen eius Iesum.

Valete bene in expectio Christi!

Cato





__________________________________ Ihr erstes Fernweh? Wo gibt es den schönsten Strand? www.yahoo.de/clever

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete Romani et Omnes! Can anyone tell me for sure
which type or style of Pileus was worn at the
Saturnalia?! Was it the Phrygian type, or the pointed
egg shape style, or were both types worn?! All
accounts I've read state it was colored RED, but when
a slave was freed, the felt Pileus was undyed. Valete!
Gaivs Ivlianvs


____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

Cato T. Flavio Aquilae sal.

Salve Flavius Aquila.

As a citizen of the Respublica, I have the right to share anything I
want in the Forum. If you see anything in a subject line which does
not interest you, you are certainly free not to open it or read it.

Our Jewish citizens may post on the Festival of Lights which we are
in the midst of now; our Moslem citizens may post their religious
observances, &c. We are an open, free community.

As it is, this is the Second Sunday of Advent. I fully intend to
share this, and the subsequent Sundays in Advent (there are two
more), and indeed the celebration of the Feast of The Nativity
itself, here in the Forum.

Vale,

Cato

Salvete

I, Radoi Constantin (Quintus Iulius Probus) do hereby solemnly swear to uphold the honor
of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best interests of the people and the Senate of Nova
Roma.
As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Quintus Iulius Probus swear to honor the Gods and
Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public
and private life.
I, Quintus Iulius Probus swear to uphold and defend the Religio Romana as the State
Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to act in a way that would threaten its status as
the State Religion.
I, Quintus Iulius Probus swear to protect and defend the Constitution of Nova Roma.
I, Quintus Iulius Probus further swear to fulfill the obligations and responsibilities of the
office of tribunus plebis to the best of my abilities.
On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the Gods and Goddesses
of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do I accept the position of tribunus plebis
and all the rights, privileges, obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.

Optime Valete

Q.Ivl.Probvs

M Moravius Piscinus T Flavio Aquilae, Quiritibus SPD:

There is no reason why anyone should take offense at the pietas of
another. We are not here competing against one another. Nova Roma
was founded with expression to remain open to all who share an
interest in seeing the Res Publica restored and its virutes
extolled. That has always included Christians and Jews as well as
cultores Deorum.

I have repeatedly had to remind people that the religio Romana is not
an exclusionary relgious tradition. It is perfectly acceptable for a
person to remain a Christian and still be a gentilis Romanus honoring
our common Maiores. It is perfectly acceptable in the religio Romana
to remain a Christian and also be a cultor Deorum. At least in my
mind it does, and in early Christianity this was the case.

I would pose a thought. We all seek to establish a Pax Deorum for
our Res Publica. We all recognize that besides cultores Deorum ex
patria that our Citizens include those who worship Isis and Serapis,
Mithras, Hellenist deities, the God of Israel, the Christian saints
and Gods, and some also Allah, while we have among also some who
identify themselves as wiccans, worshipping the male and the female
of their Godhead. Likewise, we have Agricola in distant Japan, who,
while offering cultus to our deities of the religio Romana, also
shows respect to the Gods of his host country. The Quirites, our
fellow Citizens, are spread throughout the entire world, dispersed in
diverse cultures, calling upon a multitude of deities in the
traditions of many religions. Is not this also part of our Pax
Deorum? Should we begrudge our Christian Quirites to call upon their
God to look favorably upon our Res Pulica Libera? Does a priestess of
Isis offend our Gods, breaks our Pax Deorum with Them, when she too
asks the blessing of the ancient Gods of Egypt to look favorably on
Nova Roma? How could this ever be? Noster Maiores never behaved in
such a manner as to think that honoring the Gods of foreign lands
should in any way offend their own Gods. Indeed they had just the
opposite view in such matters. When they stood before Olympus they
offered cultus to the Olympians as was appropriate and participated
in the culti Deorum ex patria of Greece. When Scipio's lieutenent
sacked the temples of Croton, the Roman Senate took offense at such
outrage performed against the Gods of that place even though They
were not the Gods of Roma. Even against such a foe as Carthage, the
Romans did not offend their Gods or commit outrage, but instead
invited Tanis to come to Rome where they offered to provide Her with
cultus in a Roman manner.

No, mi amice Tite, I cannot agree with you that any of us cultores
Deorum should take offense here, among our own Quirites, when one of
us honors the Gods, even a Christian God, because that too is part of
our Pax Deorum.

Valete et vadete in pace Deorum.

Io Saturnalia! Io Triumphe! Happy Chanukah. And may my Christian
brothers and sisters enjoy a merry Christmas.

Annum Novum vos faustum felicem.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Titus Flavius Aquila
<titus.aquila@...> wrote:

>
> T.Flavius Aquila G. Equiti Cato salutem plurimam dicit
>
> Salve Senator Cato,
>
> may I kindly remind you, that as a senator you have to honour the

Roman Gods, ideally also in your private domus,

> but at least in the public of our res publica !
> Your eMail might be seen by practitioner of the Religio Romana as

Christian Propaganda or as a missionary try and

> they might feel offended.If possible, keep your Christianity in the

privacy of your domus.

>
> Vale bene
> Titus Flavius Aquila
> Scriba Censoris
> Tribunus Plebis designatus
>
> ----- Ursprüngliche Mail ----
> Von: Gaius Equitius Cato <mlcinnyc@...>
> An: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Gesendet: Sonntag, den 9. Dezember 2007, 10:21:38 Uhr
> Betreff: [Nova-Roma] a.s. II diem Natalem Christi
>
> OSD C. Equitius Cato
>
> Salvete omnes!
>
> Hodie est ante septimanem II diem natalem Christi.
>
> O Radix Jesse, qui stas in signum populorum, super quem continebunt
> reges os suum, quem Gentes deprecabuntur: veni ad liberandum nos,

jam

> noli tardare. (O Root of Jesse, which standest for an ensign of the
> people, at Whom the kings shall shut their mouths, Whom the Gentiles
> shall seek, come to deliver us, do not tarry.)
>
> "And there shall come forth a rod out of the root of Jesse, and a
> flower shall rise up out of his root." - Isaiah 11:1
>
> O Clavis David, et sceptrum domus Israel; qui aperis, et nemo

claudit;

> claudis, et nemo aperit: veni, et educ vinctum de domo carceris,
> sedentem in tenebris, et umbra mortis. (O Key of David, and Sceptre
> of the house of Israel, that openeth and no man shutteth, and

shutteth

> and no man openeth, come to liberate the prisoner from the prison,

and

> them that sit in darkness, and in the shadow of death.)
>
> "And I will lay the key of the house of David upon his shoulder: and
> he shall open, and none shall shut: and he shall shut, and none

shall

> open." - Isaiah 22:22
>
> In mense autem sexto missus est angelus Gabrihel a Deo in civitatem
> Galilaeae cui nomen Nazareth ad virginem desponsatam viro cui nomen
> erat Ioseph de domo David et nomen virginis Maria. Et ingressus
> angelus ad eam dixit ave gratia plena Dominus tecum benedicta tu in
> mulieribus. Quae cum vidisset turbata est in sermone eius et
> cogitabat qualis esset ista salutatio. Et ait angelus ei ne timeas
> Maria invenisti enim gratiam apud Deum. Ecce concipies in utero et
> paries filium et vocabis nomen eius Iesum.
>
> Valete bene in expectio Christi!
>
> Cato
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________ Ihr erstes Fernweh? Wo

gibt es den schönsten Strand? www.yahoo.de/clever

>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus S.P.D.

FYI

Vale

>From: david meadows <rogueclassicist@...>
>================================================================
>explorator 10.33 December 9, 2007
>================================================================
>Editor's note: Most urls should be active for at least eight
>hours from the time of publication.
>
>For your computer's protection, Explorator is sent in plain text
>and NEVER has attachments. Be suspicious of any Explorator which
>arrives otherwise!!!
>================================================================
>================================================================
>Thanks to Arthur Shippee, Dave Sowdon, Dexter Hoyos,
>Diana Wright, Edward Rockstein, Hernan Astudillo, John McMahon,
>John McChesney-Young, Joseph Lauer, Mata Kimasitayo,
>Mike Ruggeri, Richard C. Griffiths, Bob Heuman, Rochelle Altman,
>Ross W. Sargent, Susan Jaslow, Toke Lindegaard Knudsen,
>and W. Richard Frahm, for headses upses this week (as always
>hoping I have left no one out).
>
>Happy Hannukah!
>================================================================
>EARLY HUMANS
>================================================================
>Evidence of tuberculosis in some homo erectus remains:
>
>http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-12/uota-mac120407.php
>http://www.physorg.com/news116230398.html
>http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/12/071207091852.htm
>http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/12/071207-tb-evolution.html
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7130760.stm
>http://www.itwire.com/content/view/15709/1066/
>
>A rerun/analysis of that Neanderthal find from back in
>October:
>
>http://tinyurl.com/2rw7vz (Dispatch)
>
>More coverage of the fungus problem at Lascaux:
>
>http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/world/europe/09cave.html
>================================================================
>AFRICA
>================================================================
>Evidence of Dogon and Bamama sacrifice:
>
>http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/12/071203091232.htm
>http://tinyurl.com/34tjyt (New Scientist)
>================================================================
>ANCIENT NEAR EAST AND EGYPT
>================================================================
>Much coverage of the discovery of what is being identified as
>the house of Helene of Adiabene:
>
>http://tinyurl.com/3xjepo (AP)
>http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/breaking/105751.html
>http://tinyurl.com/2jh5aw (JPost)
>http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22114603/
>http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/124482
>http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071206/ap_on_sc/israel_queen_s_house
>http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=931674
>http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5i7NiFRxGJpEGQj58csK1kblhnTpw
>http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5j5Xmggsj_n39zKXq5FW5iq4e7L0AD8TC6HFG0
>http://tinyurl.com/2qggqv (video)
>
>Overviewish thing on the French excavations at Karnak:
>
>http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0@2-3244,36-985210@51-985333,0.html
>
>An alabaster vase has been returned to Egypt:
>
>http://www.dailystaregypt.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=10689
>
>Somewhat vague coverage of an 18th century B.C./B.C.E. burial
>site (or sites) near Damascus:
>
>http://en.rian.ru/world/20071204/90849186.html
>http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071204/ap_on_re_mi_ea/syria_archaeology_1
>http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22097619/
>
>Another mummy is getting the CT scan treatment:
>
>http://www.guardian.co.uk/uklatest/story/0,,-7138535,00.html
>
>Rethinking Byzantine Judaism:
>
>http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=930817
>
>A call for the return of bits of the Aleppo Codex:
>
>http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/930333.html
>
>Interesting radio program on 'Biblical archaeology':
>
>http://www.abc.net.au/rn/religionreport/stories/2007/2109263.htm
>
>More on the Hittites' use of 'germ warfare':
>
>http://tinyurl.com/2n6ohd (Telegraph)
>
>More coverage of the 'baby in a jar' burial from Palmyra:
>
>http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/12/071203-AP-syria-antiquities.html
>
>Review of Nina Burleigh, *Mirage: Napoleon�s Scientists and the
>Unveiling of Egypt.*:
>
>http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/books/review/Bouton-t.html
>
>Egyptology News Blog:
>
>http://egyptology.blogspot.com/
>
>Egyptology Blog:
>
>http://www.egyptologyblog.co.uk/
>
>Dr Leen Ritmeyer's Blog:
>
>http://blog.ritmeyer.com/
>
>Paleojudaica:
>
>http://paleojudaica.blogspot.com/
>
>Persepolis Fortification Archives:
>
>http://persepolistablets.blogspot.com/
>
>Archaeologist at Large:
>
>http://spaces.msn.com/members/ArchaeologyinEgypt/
>================================================================
>ANCIENT GREECE AND ROME (AND CLASSICS)
>================================================================
>A major find of bronze tableware (for want of a better word,
>I guess) in London:
>
>http://tinyurl.com/2dh4wh (Daily Mail)
>http://tinyurl.com/39efue (Telegraph)
>http://arts.guardian.co.uk/art/news/story/0,,2223766,00.html
>http://tinyurl.com/2p8oqw (Times)
>http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22133252/
>http://in.news.yahoo.com/071207/139/6o5x1.html
>
>The English press got hold of the Herculaneum throne story this
>week:
>
>http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=rare-ancient-wooden-thron
>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,315246,00.html
>http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=33908§ionid=3510212
>http://africa.reuters.com/odd/news/usnL04138888.html
>http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071204/sc_nm/italy_throne_dc_1
>http://www.reuters.com/article/scienceNews/idUSL0413888820071204
>http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article3001613.ece
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/7128553.stm
>http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22104595/
>
>Ancient Roman glue from Germany:
>
>http://in.news.yahoo.com/071208/139/6o7ec.html
>http://tinyurl.com/2joguq
>http://tinyurl.com/3d552p
>http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article3226417.ece
>
>A Roman town site (Chester Farm) might be put up for sale to
>protect it:
>
>http://tinyurl.com/2rzm5b (ET)
>
>They're going to be raising a Roman barge found at Cologne:
>
>http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/155522.html
>
>Nice feature on the House of the Surgeon:
>
>http://tinyurl.com/37cnog (Telegraph)
>http://tinyurl.com/2urrjc (Italian coverage)
>
>Investor's Business Daily has a feature on Schliemann:
>
>http://www.investors.com/editorial/IBDArticles.asp?artsec=21&issue=20071206
>
>In case you missed it, here's Harry Mount's piece on Latin in the
>New York Times:
>
>http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/03/opinion/03mount.html
>ttp://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/03/opinion/03mount-latin.html
>
>... and some followup letters to the editor:
>
>http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/05/opinion/l05latin.html
>
>Review of Mary Beard, *The Roman Triumph*:
>
>http://tinyurl.com/3955zd (Times)
>
>Recent reviews from BMCR:
>
>http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/bmcr/recent.html
>
>Recent reviews from Scholia:
>
>http://www.classics.und.ac.za/reviews/2007.htm
>
>Visit our blog:
>
>http://www.atrium-media.com/rogueclassicism
>
>Blegen Library News:
>
>http://blegen.blogspot.com/
>
>Mediterranean Archaeology:
>
>http://medarch.blogspot.com/
>================================================================
>EUROPE AND THE UK (+ Ireland)
>================================================================
>More evidence that Liverpool was a major Viking settlement:
>
>http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,2220798,00.html
>
>As suspected a few weeks ago, the Stonehenge tunnel plan is
>being scrapped:
>
>http://tinyurl.com/3dty25 (Reuters)
>http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22133602/
>http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/transport/article3231222.ece
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/wiltshire/7130666.stm
>
>On ancient Irish breweries:
>
>http://www.wired.com/culture/lifestyle/magazine/15-12/ps_ale
>
>A mystery (solved) on Greenland:
>
>http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1128/p13s01-stgn.html
>
>Searching for a Lascaux-like site in the UK:
>
>http://arts.guardian.co.uk/art/visualart/story/0,,2222879,00.html
>
>More coverage of those horse bones in a Yorkshire kiln:
>
>http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/article.php?aid=165448&aff=rss
>
>Review of Kate Colquhoun, *Taste: The Story of Britain Through
>Its Cooking*
>
>http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/books/review/Jack-t.htm
>
>Archaeology in Europe Blog:
>
>http://www.archaeology.eu.com/weblog/index.html
>================================================================
>ASIA AND THE SOUTH PACIFIC
>================================================================
>A 2200 b.p. burial from China's Hubei province:
>
>http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2007-12/07/content_6304093.htm
>http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90782/90874/6316695.html
>
>A shell mound with a burial from Guangxi:
>
>http://www.china.org.cn/english/culture/234465.htm
>
>Excitement about the Liangzhu ruins:
>
>http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90776/6314224.html
>
>Plans are afoot to excavate a horse and chariot in Viet Nam:
>
>http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2007-12/07/content_7215171.htm
>
>New Zealand Archaeology eNews:
>
>http://www.nzarchaeology.org/netsubnews.htm
>================================================================
>CENTRAL AND SOUTH AMERICA
>================================================================
>Evidence of an ancient Maya marketplace:
>
>http://www.heraldextra.com/content/view/245945/
>http://nn.byu.edu/story.cfm/66605
>http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/535748/?sc=rssn
>http://tinyurl.com/37q2wf
>http://www.sltrib.com/ci_7620583
>
>I don't think we've mentioned this ancient Maya 'death vase'
>find yet:
>
>http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/12/071203-maya-vase.html
>
>Possible evidence of pre-European fermentation of alcohol:
>
>http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-12/dnl-des120507.php
>http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/12/071205140118.htm
>http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/535910/
>================================================================
>OTHER ITEMS OF INTEREST
>================================================================
>Pondering Hannukah:
>
>http://tinyurl.com/2k5grf (JPost)
>
>Claims that Leonardo da Vinci was an Arab, based on his fingerprint
>(hmmmmmmmmmmm):
>
>http://tinyurl.com/2szvqc (Telegraph)
>
>Interesting item on feuding:
>
>http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/weekinreview/09goodnough.html
>
>Strange happenings in Paris' Pantheon:
>
>http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article3196264.ece
>
>What is possibly Michelangelo's last sketch has been found:
>
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7133116.stm
>http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071206/ap_on_re_eu/vatican_michelangelo_found
>
>Arguing about the authorship of "Night Before Christmas":
>
>http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/arts/AP-Night-Before-Christmas.html
>
>Feature on the underwater archaeology program at Indiana University:
>
>http://www.idsnews.com/news/story.aspx?id=46646&comview=1
>
>On electronic 'orality':
>
>http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/02/weekinreview/02wright.html
>
>On absinthe's 'comeback':
>
>http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/05/dining/05absi.html
>
>Mark Twain's "Is He Dead" isn't that bad, apparently:
>
>http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/theater/09gree.html
>
>Carbs apparently make us human:
>
>http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/magazine/09starch.
>
>More on the map that named America:
>
>http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071203/us_nm/usa_map_dc
>
>More coverage of that 'Noah's flood' story:
>
>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/02/AR2007120201535.html
>
>Review of Gregory Clark, *A Farewell to Alms*:
>
>http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/books/review/Friedman-t.html
>
>Oxford Dictionary of National Biography Lives of the Week:
>
>http://www.oxforddnb.com/public/lotw/
>
>Arts and Letters Daily:
>
>http://aldaily.com/
>================================================================
>TOURISTY THINGS
>================================================================
>Pompeii:
>
>http://www.timesrecordnews.com/news/2007/dec/03/hot-spot-frozen-time/
>================================================================
>GENERAL MAGAZINES AND JOURNALS
>================================================================
>About.com Archaeology:
>
>http://archaeology.about.com/
>
>Archaeoblog:
>
>http://archaeoblog.blogspot.com/
>
>Archaeology Briefs:
>
>http://archaeologybriefs.blogspot.com/
>================================================================
>CRIME BEAT
>================================================================
>Nice video report on the return of some purloined Sipan pieces
>to Peru:
>
>http://tinyurl.com/3xetat (NG)
>http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,2222675,00.html
>
>A Greek barber had quite a few ancient coins of questionable
>provenance:
>
>http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2995087.ece
>http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071203/ap_on_re_eu/greece_ancient_coins_1
>http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/152403.html
>http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2007Dec03/0,4670,GreeceAncientCoins,00.html
>
>Brief item on the recovery of some items from Gravina:
>
>http://tinyurl.com/2jklym (Italian)
>================================================================
>NUMISMATICA
>================================================================
>Hobbyblog:
>
>http://hobbyblog.blogspot.com/
>
>Ancient Coin Collecting:
>
>http://ancientcoincollecting.blogspot.com/
>
>Ancient Coins:
>
>http://classicalcoins.blogspot.com/
>================================================================
>EXHIBITIONS, AUCTIONS, AND MUSEUM-RELATED
>================================================================
>Painted With Words:
>
>http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=14987430
>
>Peutinger Map:
>
>http://www.expatica.com/actual/article.asp?subchannel_id=26&story_id=46542
>
>Artisans and Kings:
>
>http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1127/p18s02-hfks.html
>
>Fordham is opening a museum for Greek, Roman, and Etruscan
>Art:
>
>http://www.nysun.com/article/67604
>
>Fighting over ownership/possession of some Picassos:
>
>http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/08/arts/design/08muse.html
>
>The Portland Art Museum has acquired a Van Gogh:
>
>http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=16792247
>
>The Met's 19th century galleries have reopened:
>
>http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/07/arts/design/07euro.html
>
>An amazing price for the Guennol Lionness:
>
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7130337.stm
>http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071206/ap_en_ot/ancient_lion_3
>http://www.news-antique.com/?id=783375&keys=Sotheby-Guennol-Lioness
>http://tinyurl.com/2subzs (AFP via Yahoo)
>
>Big bucks too for a couple of pages of Mozart:
>
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/7127343.stm
>
>Italy will be helping refurbish the Egyptian Museum in Cairo:
>
>http://www.adnkronos.com/AKI/English/CultureAndMedia/?id=1.0.1644018855
>
>... and restoring some of the Dead Sea Scrolls:
>
>http://tinyurl.com/2vx4gx
>
>There's a new guy in charge of the Vatican museums:
>
>http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/152952.html
>
>Latest coverage of the move of items to the new Acropolis Museum:
>
>http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gB-fyRS6c_HoRqeRw7NC4oCIskxA
>================================================================
>PERFORMANCES AND THEATRE-RELATED
>================================================================
>Cymbeline:
>
>http://theater2.nytimes.com/2007/12/03/theater/reviews/03cymb.html
>================================================================
>OBITUARIES
>================================================================
>Richard Leigh (knights templar/freemason/da vinci code):
>
>http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/01/arts/01leigh.html
>
>John Strugnell:
>
>http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/us/09strugnell.html
>http://tinyurl.com/35g7sq
>http://tinyurl.com/3yguu5
>
>H. Wiley Hitchcock:
>
>http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/nyregion/09hitchcock0.html
>================================================================
>PODCASTS
>================================================================
>
>The Book and the Spade:
>
>http://www.radioscribe.com/bknspade.htm
>
>Stone Pages Archaeology News:
>
>http://news.stonepages.com/
>
>Archaeologica Audio News:
>
>http://www.archaeologychannel.org/AudioNews.asp
>================================================================
>EXPLORATOR is a weekly newsletter representing the fruits of
>the labours of 'media research division' of The Atrium. Various
>on-line news and magazine sources are scoured for news of the
>ancient world (broadly construed: practically anything relating
>to archaeology or history prior to about 1700 or so is fair
>game) and every Sunday they are delivered to your mailbox free of
>charge!
>================================================================
>Useful Addresses
>================================================================
>Past issues of Explorator are available on the web via our
>Yahoo site:
>
>http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Explorator/
>
>To subscribe to Explorator, send a blank email message to:
>
>Explorator-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>To unsubscribe, send a blank email message to:
>
>Explorator-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>To send a 'heads up' to the editor or contact him for other
>reasons:
>
>rogueclassicist@...
>================================================================
>Explorator is Copyright (c) 2007 David Meadows. Feel free to
>distribute these listings via email to your pals, students,
>teachers, etc., but please include this copyright notice. These
>links are not to be posted to any website by any means (whether
>by direct posting or snagging from a usenet group or some other
>email source) without my express written permission. I think it
>is only right that I be made aware of public fora which are
>making use of content gathered in Explorator. Thanks!

Salve et Salvete!

When the Christianism was made the official religion of Roma Antiqua by emperor Theodosius I in 391, the Roman Empire was already weak, I know, but most of its institutions were preserved by the christian culture that followed Roma Antiqua, notably in the law context, especially in the byzantine empire or Eastern Roman Empire, that was the Half of the Empire that survived for 1,000 years until the death of Constantine XI Palealogus in 1453 and the fall of Constantinople to the Ottomans. example of what I'm saying is the Corpus Iuris Civilis created by the Eastern Emperor Flavius Petrus Iustinianus or Justinian I, who reigned from 527 to 565 (a.u.c 1280 to 1318). It was a model for the legislation of several countries up to this day, including Brazil and Portugal.

Vale et Valete!

Lucius Fidelius Lusitanus SPD.

----- Original Message -----
From: marcushoratius
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 2:14 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi


M Moravius Piscinus T Flavio Aquilae, Quiritibus SPD:

There is no reason why anyone should take offense at the pietas of
another. We are not here competing against one another. Nova Roma
was founded with expression to remain open to all who share an
interest in seeing the Res Publica restored and its virutes
extolled. That has always included Christians and Jews as well as
cultores Deorum.

I have repeatedly had to remind people that the religio Romana is not
an exclusionary relgious tradition. It is perfectly acceptable for a
person to remain a Christian and still be a gentilis Romanus honoring
our common Maiores. It is perfectly acceptable in the religio Romana
to remain a Christian and also be a cultor Deorum. At least in my
mind it does, and in early Christianity this was the case.

I would pose a thought. We all seek to establish a Pax Deorum for
our Res Publica. We all recognize that besides cultores Deorum ex
patria that our Citizens include those who worship Isis and Serapis,
Mithras, Hellenist deities, the God of Israel, the Christian saints
and Gods, and some also Allah, while we have among also some who
identify themselves as wiccans, worshipping the male and the female
of their Godhead. Likewise, we have Agricola in distant Japan, who,
while offering cultus to our deities of the religio Romana, also
shows respect to the Gods of his host country. The Quirites, our
fellow Citizens, are spread throughout the entire world, dispersed in
diverse cultures, calling upon a multitude of deities in the
traditions of many religions. Is not this also part of our Pax
Deorum? Should we begrudge our Christian Quirites to call upon their
God to look favorably upon our Res Pulica Libera? Does a priestess of
Isis offend our Gods, breaks our Pax Deorum with Them, when she too
asks the blessing of the ancient Gods of Egypt to look favorably on
Nova Roma? How could this ever be? Noster Maiores never behaved in
such a manner as to think that honoring the Gods of foreign lands
should in any way offend their own Gods. Indeed they had just the
opposite view in such matters. When they stood before Olympus they
offered cultus to the Olympians as was appropriate and participated
in the culti Deorum ex patria of Greece. When Scipio's lieutenent
sacked the temples of Croton, the Roman Senate took offense at such
outrage performed against the Gods of that place even though They
were not the Gods of Roma. Even against such a foe as Carthage, the
Romans did not offend their Gods or commit outrage, but instead
invited Tanis to come to Rome where they offered to provide Her with
cultus in a Roman manner.

No, mi amice Tite, I cannot agree with you that any of us cultores
Deorum should take offense here, among our own Quirites, when one of
us honors the Gods, even a Christian God, because that too is part of
our Pax Deorum.

Valete et vadete in pace Deorum.

Io Saturnalia! Io Triumphe! Happy Chanukah. And may my Christian
brothers and sisters enjoy a merry Christmas.

Annum Novum vos faustum felicem.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Titus Flavius Aquila
<titus.aquila@...> wrote:
>
> T.Flavius Aquila G. Equiti Cato salutem plurimam dicit
>
> Salve Senator Cato,
>
> may I kindly remind you, that as a senator you have to honour the
Roman Gods, ideally also in your private domus,
> but at least in the public of our res publica !
> Your eMail might be seen by practitioner of the Religio Romana as
Christian Propaganda or as a missionary try and
> they might feel offended.If possible, keep your Christianity in the
privacy of your domus.
>
> Vale bene
> Titus Flavius Aquila
> Scriba Censoris
> Tribunus Plebis designatus
>
> ----- Ursprüngliche Mail ----
> Von: Gaius Equitius Cato <mlcinnyc@...>
> An: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Gesendet: Sonntag, den 9. Dezember 2007, 10:21:38 Uhr
> Betreff: [Nova-Roma] a.s. II diem Natalem Christi
>
> OSD C. Equitius Cato
>
> Salvete omnes!
>
> Hodie est ante septimanem II diem natalem Christi.
>
> O Radix Jesse, qui stas in signum populorum, super quem continebunt
> reges os suum, quem Gentes deprecabuntur: veni ad liberandum nos,
jam
> noli tardare. (O Root of Jesse, which standest for an ensign of the
> people, at Whom the kings shall shut their mouths, Whom the Gentiles
> shall seek, come to deliver us, do not tarry.)
>
> "And there shall come forth a rod out of the root of Jesse, and a
> flower shall rise up out of his root." - Isaiah 11:1
>
> O Clavis David, et sceptrum domus Israel; qui aperis, et nemo
claudit;
> claudis, et nemo aperit: veni, et educ vinctum de domo carceris,
> sedentem in tenebris, et umbra mortis. (O Key of David, and Sceptre
> of the house of Israel, that openeth and no man shutteth, and
shutteth
> and no man openeth, come to liberate the prisoner from the prison,
and
> them that sit in darkness, and in the shadow of death.)
>
> "And I will lay the key of the house of David upon his shoulder: and
> he shall open, and none shall shut: and he shall shut, and none
shall
> open." - Isaiah 22:22
>
> In mense autem sexto missus est angelus Gabrihel a Deo in civitatem
> Galilaeae cui nomen Nazareth ad virginem desponsatam viro cui nomen
> erat Ioseph de domo David et nomen virginis Maria. Et ingressus
> angelus ad eam dixit ave gratia plena Dominus tecum benedicta tu in
> mulieribus. Quae cum vidisset turbata est in sermone eius et
> cogitabat qualis esset ista salutatio. Et ait angelus ei ne timeas
> Maria invenisti enim gratiam apud Deum. Ecce concipies in utero et
> paries filium et vocabis nomen eius Iesum.
>
> Valete bene in expectio Christi!
>
> Cato
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________ Ihr erstes Fernweh? Wo
gibt es den schönsten Strand? www.yahoo.de/clever
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Maior Catoni Aquilaequr spd;
hmm, I discussed this with Cordus offlist back in March
and he said to me very sensibly, 'we need more Roman propaganda!'

One of the more fascinating topics is the fantastic influence of the
Zoroastrian religion, the religion of the Parthians.

December 25th, My Zoroastrian friends will be celebrating the birth
of Mithra, he was conceived by the Virgin Goddess Anahita. This
cultus began around 400 B.C.

http://lexicorient.com/e.o/mithra.htm
http://www.vcn.bc.ca/oshihan/IndexEnglish.htm

The lexorient link is by a Norwegian student of Religion, the
Oshihan is by Irani Zoroastrians and expresses their ancient
understanding of their religion.

I daresay, our civis Aulus Sempronius Regulus, who has been to
Armenia a number of times and Nabarz who is Iranian could help us
with this topic.
bene valete in pacem deorum
Marca Hortensia Maior

>
> As a citizen of the Respublica, I have the right to share anything

I

> want in the Forum. If you see anything in a subject line which

does

> not interest you, you are certainly free not to open it or read it.
>
> Our Jewish citizens may post on the Festival of Lights which we

are

> in the midst of now; our Moslem citizens may post their religious
> observances, &c. We are an open, free community.
>
> As it is, this is the Second Sunday of Advent. I fully intend to
> share this, and the subsequent Sundays in Advent (there are two
> more), and indeed the celebration of the Feast of The Nativity
> itself, here in the Forum.
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>

SALVE!

Please, mi amica, accept my sincere condolences, too. I'm with my
heart near you in these days of mourning.

VALE BENE,
IVL SABINVS

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "marcushoratius" <mhoratius@...>
wrote:

>
> M Moravius Piscinus carissimae amicae salutem plurimam dicit:
>
> Et te, Terra, precor leviter super ossa residas, sentiat ut pietas
> praemia quae meruit, et quicumque suis sincere praestat honorem,
> felicem cursum perferat ad superos.
>
> Mother Earth, indeed to You I pray, settle lightly on these bones,

as

> he knew that piety is the reward of he who merits it, and whoever
> sincerely stands out in performing his own pious duties may be

carried

> on that happy path to the Gods above.
>
> My sincere condolences goes out to you, mia amica. May your

father's

> Lares now guide him on his journey.
>

Salvet Pompeia:
please accept all my sympathies. It must be a terribly difficult
time and know that my thoughts and prayers are with you.
Marca Hortensia Maior

> SALVE!
>
> Please, mi amica, accept my sincere condolences, too. I'm with my
> heart near you in these days of mourning.
>
> VALE BENE,
> IVL SABINVS
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "marcushoratius" <mhoratius@>
> wrote:
> >
> > M Moravius Piscinus carissimae amicae salutem plurimam dicit:
> >
> > Et te, Terra, precor leviter super ossa residas, sentiat ut

pietas

> > praemia quae meruit, et quicumque suis sincere praestat honorem,
> > felicem cursum perferat ad superos.
> >
> > Mother Earth, indeed to You I pray, settle lightly on these

bones,

> as
> > he knew that piety is the reward of he who merits it, and

whoever

> > sincerely stands out in performing his own pious duties may be
> carried
> > on that happy path to the Gods above.
> >
> > My sincere condolences goes out to you, mia amica. May your
> father's
> > Lares now guide him on his journey.
> >
>

Salve Marca Hortensia:
I've been following your posts during the past weeks. Thanks a lot for your answer.
I cannot say that our small, private, improvised rituals can be accounted as "practices in Buenos Aires", as I feel we are a minority. So far, I haven't been contacted by any Nova Roma local citizens since we became citizens too. I'm having a bit of problems too navigating the new Wiki website. As an example, while I found easily the "Gens Iulia" list when I applied, now I see there is no page for it at Wiki. Same thing with our Province's citizens' list. So I have no idea how many of us are still active.
Regarding other polytheistic groups here. Most of the local scene is composed by solitary Wicca practitioners, plus a few "High Priestesses" ordained either by Glastonbury Kathy Jones (no comment on that one), or other local Wiccan groups. There is one lady representing the Pagan Federation here, but... well, their more "intuitive", "practical magic" oriented approach doesn't quite match my own more scholarly, reconstructionist oriented view. I know from, sadly, personal experience.
As for YSEE. One of the (few, not to say "only") local people who actually engaged into a more ritual/Deities oriented approach, later on contacted people from YSEE in Greece, by e-mail. So far, it seems she managed to get in touch with one of their members (appointed by one of the group's leaders in Greece) who regularly visits some relatives here (at least once a year), and was able to instruct her and eventually initiate her into their particular rituals and worship. I might eventually contact this young lady, but so far, she is not into organising any sort of local group.
Keep in mind that we live into a highly Catholic country, where even politicians who are not confessed Catholic, cannot take any official position, stated by our Constitution.
Not counting many Fundamentalist Christian groups which are growing exponentially in numbers.
Personally speaking, coming out as a non practicing Christian/Jew/Moslem/Buddhist/Hinduist/Hare Krishna.... (by a somehow decreasing degree of local "credibility", at least from the Hinduist part on) can affect even our own personal lives and professions. Let's say that I dare to make this statements here because this is a non-public website. Otherwise... I'd keep my mouth shut.
So, as you can see, all this chat about Temples and the like, somehow sounds like a fairy tale to me.Or at least, wistful thinking. All our specific, local, provincial problems should be taken into account. If at least ONE country could make Religio Romana an official worship, maybe this specific reference might help other people approach local authorities and see what can be done to get official recognition. That's what happened, as an example, with Mormons here. They only sent a few representatives from the States, then they started gathering new members, but their being an acknowledged religion in their country helped them get official status here. It is not as easy as it sounds on the web.
Vale bene!.
Gaia Iulia Agrippa.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Maior" <rory12001@...>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2007 8:46 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Real temples - Petronius Dexter and Horatius


> Salvete Gaia Iulia et Gai Petroni:
> it's wonderful to hear about practices in Buenos Aires, thank you:) Are there many many groups in Argentina? I agree with you the best way is to start forming a pan-pagan organization, for with numbers you get representation.
>
> In Europe I've watched the Greek Polytheists, YSEE, in Greece work via court rulings, for official recognition.
> http://www.ysee.gr/index-eng.php
>
> There is EU law to help them and it would help the Gallic cultores as well. Dexter, if you want to, join up with the Druids and form a pan-pagan French group and talk with YSEE. On the other hand if you don't have a passion for organizing. Find a less famous Roman temple and have ceremonies there or in a sacred wood if there are any left in Brittany with the Druids.
>
> If they mention Rome in a bad way, tell them we didn't destroy the Druids;-). Hibernia (where I lived) and Alba were Druid strongholds with no Romans & there are none today, sadly.
> bene valete in pacem deorum
> Marca Hortensia Maior
>
> > Here, in Buenos Aires, we have a wonderful Botanical Garden, built during the late 1800's. Many "foreigner" species from Europe were brought, including an oak whic must be at least 100 years old. This old Oak has become our "private" altar, no matter how many strange looks we, my husband and I, might get when pouring ale and bits of grain bread whenever we can.
>
> > So, the main question might be, what can we actually do to be acknowledged as a bona fide religion in each country?. How Nova Roma, as an organization, might eventually help towards this goal?.
> > Valete!!
> > Gaia Iulia Agrippa.
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.17/1179 - Release Date: 09/12/07 11:06 a.m.
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete!:
Interesting exchange, to say the least. While I do not want over all the "About Christians in Nova Roma" issue again, as it has been discussed ad nauseam, I could say that Titus Flavius Aquila has simply exercised his own right to get on his own "soap box" and express his (rather shared, at least in my household - hubby waving from the side!!) feelings on this issue.
But I believe, if I got Aquila's mail right (after all, English is not my "muttersprache", as Freud stated it), that he is not quite addressing the citizen, but the "SENATOR".
So far, even in the States we all have witnessed a separation between what a citizen might do in his own private life, and what an Official representative might do. During the last decade, while surely many men around the world (let alone the States) cheated on their wives, when a Head of State did it, it caused a huge problem, up to the point that the aforesaid HOS was called by his Parliament to make a public discharge on the subject.
Locally, while gay and lesbians can get a "civil union" (at least in some provinces), when a local Judge was suspicious of visiting a "massage parlour" attended by young men, also there was a public outcry. So while nobody quite objected his sexual choices, as a public servant, the "populus" expected some sort of... moderate behaviour.
So, I ask, why our own representatives shouldn't be asked to
have the same kind of "moderation"? Reading the page of "Frequently asked questions" which I downloaded on 2006,

Do I have to be Pagan to join?
A: Absolutely not! Although most of our Citizens are currently pagans of one ilk or another, and the public "State" religion of Nova Roma is the Religio Romana, we in no shape, matter, or form require Citizens to practice Roman Paganism. The one exception to this is our magistrates; because they are not only civil servants but also have functions within the Religio Romana, we ask that they at least be willing to fulfil those religious functions. We have absolutely no interest in the private religious lives of any of our Citizens. All that's required is a love of all things Roman;

so... can anybody explain this to me?.

Valete!.

Gaia Iulia Agrippa. Decimus Cassius Lupus.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gaius Equitius Cato" <mlcinnyc@...>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 10:10 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi


> Cato T. Flavio Aquilae sal.
>
> Salve Flavius Aquila.
>
> As a citizen of the Respublica, I have the right to share anything I
> want in the Forum. If you see anything in a subject line which does
> not interest you, you are certainly free not to open it or read it.
>
> Our Jewish citizens may post on the Festival of Lights which we are
> in the midst of now; our Moslem citizens may post their religious
> observances, &c. We are an open, free community.
>
> As it is, this is the Second Sunday of Advent. I fully intend to
> share this, and the subsequent Sundays in Advent (there are two
> more), and indeed the celebration of the Feast of The Nativity
> itself, here in the Forum.
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.17/1179 - Release Date: 09/12/07 11:06 a.m.
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Gaia Iulia;
since I work as a scriba for the censor Caeso Fabius Buteo
Modianus, I just checked the database for Argentina, there are 9
other cives. I will ask the censor's permission to send them to you
today.
Also here is the gens Iulia page. Roma Antiqua is distinguised from
Nova Roma by (Nova Roma)
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Category:Gens_Iulia_%28Nova_Roma%29

Here is the Nova Roma wiki group. Please join!
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/NRWiki/
Octavius, Agricola, Callidus are very nice & helpful; you will be
able to set up online temples, write articles.

Here is a link to Daily Rituals:
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Daily_Rituals_%28Nova_Roma%29
and others
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Category:Religio_Romana_%28Nova_Roma%29
and gods
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Category:Roman_Gods

I sympathize with your difficulties; different provinces have
different problems. Titus Flavius Aquila and I want to work with the
Italian cultores for just this reason. Official recognition will
help others in all countries.
The city of Rome just financed a solstice celebration for the
Federazaion Pagane, so I don't think this is pie in the sky.
I am here to help you in any way!
bene valete in pacem deorum
Marca Hortensia Maior

> Salve Marca Hortensia:
> I've been following your posts during the past weeks. Thanks a lot

for your answer.

> I cannot say that our small, private, improvised rituals can be

accounted as "practices in Buenos Aires", as I feel we are a
minority. So far, I haven't been contacted by any Nova Roma local
citizens since we became citizens too. I'm having a bit of problems
too navigating the new Wiki website. As an example, while I found
easily the "Gens Iulia" list when I applied, now I see there is no
page for it at Wiki. Same thing with our Province's citizens' list.
So I have no idea how many of us are still active.

> Regarding other polytheistic groups here. Most of the local scene

is composed by solitary Wicca practitioners, plus a few "High
Priestesses" ordained either by Glastonbury Kathy Jones (no comment
on that one), or other local Wiccan groups. There is one lady
representing the Pagan Federation here, but... well, their
more "intuitive", "practical magic" oriented approach doesn't quite
match my own more scholarly, reconstructionist oriented view. I know
from, sadly, personal experience.

> As for YSEE. One of the (few, not to say "only") local people who

actually engaged into a more ritual/Deities oriented approach, later
on contacted people from YSEE in Greece, by e-mail. So far, it seems
she managed to get in touch with one of their members (appointed by
one of the group's leaders in Greece) who regularly visits some
relatives here (at least once a year), and was able to instruct her
and eventually initiate her into their particular rituals and
worship. I might eventually contact this young lady, but so far, she
is not into organising any sort of local group.

> Keep in mind that we live into a highly Catholic country, where

even politicians who are not confessed Catholic, cannot take any
official position, stated by our Constitution.

> Not counting many Fundamentalist Christian groups which are

growing exponentially in numbers.

> Personally speaking, coming out as a non practicing

Christian/Jew/Moslem/Buddhist/Hinduist/Hare Krishna.... (by a
somehow decreasing degree of local "credibility", at least from the
Hinduist part on) can affect even our own personal lives and
professions. Let's say that I dare to make this statements here
because this is a non-public website. Otherwise... I'd keep my mouth
shut.

> So, as you can see, all this chat about Temples and the like,

somehow sounds like a fairy tale to me.Or at least, wistful
thinking. All our specific, local, provincial problems should be
taken into account. If at least ONE country could make Religio
Romana an official worship, maybe this specific reference might help
other people approach local authorities and see what can be done to
get official recognition. That's what happened, as an example, with
Mormons here. They only sent a few representatives from the States,
then they started gathering new members, but their being an
acknowledged religion in their country helped them get official
status here. It is not as easy as it sounds on the web.

> Vale bene!.
> Gaia Iulia Agrippa.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Maior" <rory12001@...>
> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2007 8:46 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Real temples - Petronius Dexter and

Horatius

>
>
> > Salvete Gaia Iulia et Gai Petroni:
> > it's wonderful to hear about practices in Buenos Aires, thank

you:) Are there many many groups in Argentina? I agree with you the
best way is to start forming a pan-pagan organization, for with
numbers you get representation.

> >
> > In Europe I've watched the Greek Polytheists, YSEE, in Greece

work via court rulings, for official recognition.

> > http://www.ysee.gr/index-eng.php
> >
> > There is EU law to help them and it would help the Gallic

cultores as well. Dexter, if you want to, join up with the Druids
and form a pan-pagan French group and talk with YSEE. On the other
hand if you don't have a passion for organizing. Find a less famous
Roman temple and have ceremonies there or in a sacred wood if there
are any left in Brittany with the Druids.

> >
> > If they mention Rome in a bad way, tell them we didn't destroy

the Druids;-). Hibernia (where I lived) and Alba were Druid
strongholds with no Romans & there are none today, sadly.

> > bene valete in pacem deorum
> > Marca Hortensia Maior
> >
> > > Here, in Buenos Aires, we have a wonderful Botanical Garden,

built during the late 1800's. Many "foreigner" species from Europe
were brought, including an oak whic must be at least 100 years old.
This old Oak has become our "private" altar, no matter how many
strange looks we, my husband and I, might get when pouring ale and
bits of grain bread whenever we can.

> >
> > > So, the main question might be, what can we actually do to be

acknowledged as a bona fide religion in each country?. How Nova
Roma, as an organization, might eventually help towards this goal?.

> > > Valete!!
> > > Gaia Iulia Agrippa.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.17/1179 - Release

Date: 09/12/07 11:06 a.m.

> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Salve Marca Hortensia!.
You are a real treasure. I mean.. it was almost maddening to lose track of Narbaz. I downloaded his article on Mithras from an University website quite a while ago, only to get a "no URL found" last time I tried to access it. Is he a citizen of Nova Roma?. Is it there any way to get in contact with him?. There are a few details on the aforesaid article which I'd love to discuss, off list of course, with him.
Vale bene!.
Gaia Iulia Agrippa.
PS: my thoughts, exactly, on this issue.
As for the Terra Mater thread, I might have missed the original post. Still, my condolences to Pompeia.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Maior" <rory12001@...>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 5:23 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi


> Maior Catoni Aquilaequr spd;
> hmm, I discussed this with Cordus offlist back in March
> and he said to me very sensibly, 'we need more Roman propaganda!'
>
> One of the more fascinating topics is the fantastic influence of the
> Zoroastrian religion, the religion of the Parthians.
>
> December 25th, My Zoroastrian friends will be celebrating the birth
> of Mithra, he was conceived by the Virgin Goddess Anahita. This
> cultus began around 400 B.C.
>
> http://lexicorient.com/e.o/mithra.htm
> http://www.vcn.bc.ca/oshihan/IndexEnglish.htm
>
> The lexorient link is by a Norwegian student of Religion, the
> Oshihan is by Irani Zoroastrians and expresses their ancient
> understanding of their religion.
>
> I daresay, our civis Aulus Sempronius Regulus, who has been to
> Armenia a number of times and Nabarz who is Iranian could help us
> with this topic.
> bene valete in pacem deorum
> Marca Hortensia Maior
> >
> > As a citizen of the Respublica, I have the right to share anything
> I
> > want in the Forum. If you see anything in a subject line which
> does
> > not interest you, you are certainly free not to open it or read it.
> >
> > Our Jewish citizens may post on the Festival of Lights which we
> are
> > in the midst of now; our Moslem citizens may post their religious
> > observances, &c. We are an open, free community.
> >
> > As it is, this is the Second Sunday of Advent. I fully intend to
> > share this, and the subsequent Sundays in Advent (there are two
> > more), and indeed the celebration of the Feast of The Nativity
> > itself, here in the Forum.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Cato
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.17/1179 - Release Date: 09/12/07 11:06 a.m.
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

SALVE!

You can talk with him here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mithras/

VALE BENE,
IVL SABINVS

Gens Iulia <maite_cat@...> wrote:
Salve Marca Hortensia!.
You are a real treasure. I mean.. it was almost maddening to lose track of Narbaz. I downloaded his article on Mithras from an University website quite a while ago, only to get a "no URL found" last time I tried to access it. Is he a citizen of Nova Roma?. Is it there any way to get in contact with him?. There are a few details on the aforesaid article which I'd love to discuss, off list of course, with him.
Vale bene!.
Gaia Iulia Agrippa.
PS: my thoughts, exactly, on this issue.
As for the Terra Mater thread, I might have missed the original post. Still, my condolences to Pompeia.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Maior" <rory12001@...>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 5:23 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi

> Maior Catoni Aquilaequr spd;
> hmm, I discussed this with Cordus offlist back in March
> and he said to me very sensibly, 'we need more Roman propaganda!'
>
> One of the more fascinating topics is the fantastic influence of the
> Zoroastrian religion, the religion of the Parthians.
>
> December 25th, My Zoroastrian friends will be celebrating the birth
> of Mithra, he was conceived by the Virgin Goddess Anahita. This
> cultus began around 400 B.C.
>
> http://lexicorient.com/e.o/mithra.htm
> http://www.vcn.bc.ca/oshihan/IndexEnglish.htm
>
> The lexorient link is by a Norwegian student of Religion, the
> Oshihan is by Irani Zoroastrians and expresses their ancient
> understanding of their religion.
>
> I daresay, our civis Aulus Sempronius Regulus, who has been to
> Armenia a number of times and Nabarz who is Iranian could help us
> with this topic.
> bene valete in pacem deorum
> Marca Hortensia Maior
> >
> > As a citizen of the Respublica, I have the right to share anything
> I
> > want in the Forum. If you see anything in a subject line which
> does
> > not interest you, you are certainly free not to open it or read it.
> >
> > Our Jewish citizens may post on the Festival of Lights which we
> are
> > in the midst of now; our Moslem citizens may post their religious
> > observances, &c. We are an open, free community.
> >
> > As it is, this is the Second Sunday of Advent. I fully intend to
> > share this, and the subsequent Sundays in Advent (there are two
> > more), and indeed the celebration of the Feast of The Nativity
> > itself, here in the Forum.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Cato
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.17/1179 - Release Date: 09/12/07 11:06 a.m.
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






"Every individual is the architect of his own fortune" - Appius Claudius





---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>> A. Tullia Scholastica C. Equitio Catoni quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque
>> bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
>>
>>
>>
>> Cato M. Hortensiae Maiori sal.
>>
>> Salvete.
>>
>> I think the Hudson still teems with wildlife and what might generously
>> be considered "fish" in that they're mostly scaly and probably have
>> several fins...it's the multiple heads that throw people off :-)
>>
>> ATS: And if that doesn¹t do it, maybe the bloody tumors and the eyes
>> where the guts belong might do the trick... ;-)
>>
>>
>>
>> I didn't mean that NYC could not be considered some kind of sacred
>> space, but that there is no evidence - written, physical, or in any
>> local oral tradition - that marks any place on the island as having
>> any kind of historical spiritual importance. There is evidence of
>> habitation and importance as a commercial focal point - primarily for
>> sewant, or wampum - since Paleolithic times, but nothing else.
>>
>> The inhabitants when the Dutch showed up, the Manhattoes Indians, used
>> Inwood Park as a hunting ground, so I guess that might be considered
>> special in some way, but apparently they weren't very good at hunting.
>>
>> ATS: Maybe it wasn¹t the sort of place where the buffalo roamed...or the
>> deer, antelope, rabbits, squirrels...maybe they didn¹t like pigeons,
>> seagulls, or that later import, English sparrows. No glires, either.
>>
>>
>> Vale,
>>
>> Cato
>>
>> Vale, et valete.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/53319;
>>
>>
>>
>>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]