Selected messages in Nova-Roma group. Dec 12-16, 2007

Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53494 From: Lucius Quirinus Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53495 From: Maior Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: The Year of Concordia - The Tenth Anniversary of Nova Roma
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53496 From: Maior Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53497 From: Ice Hunter Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: YES on Lex Galeria de Cursu Honorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53498 From: Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kelly Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53499 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: YES on Lex Galeria de Cursu Honorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53500 From: Patrick D. Owen Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53501 From: Titus Flavius Aquila Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: AW: [Nova-Roma] The Year of Concordia - The Tenth Anniversary of Nov
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53502 From: Patrick D. Owen Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53503 From: Patrick D. Owen Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53504 From: marcushoratius Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Hoc Agete! [ a. d. III Eidus Decembris]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53505 From: Michael Echevarria Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: AW: [Nova-Roma] The Year of Concordia - The Tenth Anniversary of
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53506 From: Michael Echevarria Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53507 From: Titus Iulius Sabinus Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: The Year of Concordia - The Tenth Anniversary of Nova Roma
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53508 From: liviacases Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: The Year of Concordia - The Tenth Anniversary of Nova Roma
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53509 From: marcushoratius Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: The Year of Concordia - The Tenth Anniversary of Nova Roma
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53510 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53511 From: vallenporter Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53512 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53513 From: cassius622@aol.com Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Welcome new Pontifices
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53514 From: Titus Arminius Genialis Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: RES: [Nova-Roma] The Year of Concordia - The Tenth Anniversary of No
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53515 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: [NovaReligioRomana] Welcome new Pontifices
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53516 From: M•IVL•SEVERVS Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: Welcome new Pontifices
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53517 From: Maior Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53518 From: Ice Hunter Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: Welcome new Pontifices
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53519 From: Gens Iulia Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53520 From: vallenporter Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53521 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: Welcome new Pontifices
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53522 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: Welcome new Pontifices
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53523 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: Welcome new Pontifices
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53524 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53525 From: cassius622@aol.com Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Lex De Imperio MMDCCLXI - The Comitia Curiata confers Imperium
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53526 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: [NovaReligioRomana] Welcome new Pontifices
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53527 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53528 From: Maior Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53529 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Witnessing New Priesthood Appointments
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53530 From: Charlie Collins Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: Witnessing New Priesthood Appointments
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53531 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Congratulations
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53532 From: marcushoratius Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: Welcome new Pontifices
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53533 From: marcushoratius Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: EIDAE DECEMBRAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53534 From: Patricia J. Washburn Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Passing of imperium to priesthoods
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53535 From: Ice Hunter Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: YES on Lex Galeria de Cursu Honorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53536 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Jesus never Existed-What difference does it make?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53537 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: Passing of imperium to priesthoods
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53538 From: Patrick D. Owen Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Caerimonia to Mars Invictus--Example to use for reconstruction
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53539 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: In Defense of Women Pontifices
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53540 From: Patrick D. Owen Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: My first caerimonia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53541 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: My first caerimonia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53542 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: Welcome new Pontifices
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53543 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Witnessing the New Priesthoods
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53544 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: Lex De Imperio MMDCCLXI - The Comitia Curiata confers Imperium
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53545 From: Titus Flavius Aquila Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Congratulations to the new pontifices
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53546 From: marius.lupus Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: Daily rituals in latin
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53547 From: Titus Flavius Aquila Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: AW: [Nova-Roma] Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53548 From: Marcus Hirtius Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53549 From: Michael Echevarria Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: AW: [Nova-Roma] Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Exi
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53550 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: First Saturnalia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53551 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: First Saturnalia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53552 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53553 From: Lucius Rutilius Minervalis Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53554 From: Lucius Quirinus Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53555 From: Lucius Quirinus Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: AW: [Nova-Roma] Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Exi
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53556 From: Lucius Quirinus Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53557 From: Lucius Quirinus Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53558 From: Titus Flavius Aquila Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Ex Officio Tribuni Plebis Lex De Imperio MMDCCLXI
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53559 From: L. Vitellius Triarius Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: Welcome new Pontifices
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53560 From: L. Vitellius Triarius Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53561 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: [NovaReligioRomana] Re: [Nova-Roma] Lex De Imperio MMDCCLXI - Th
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53562 From: Gaius Popillius Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: [ReligioRomana] Witnessing the New Priesthoods
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53563 From: cassius622@aol.com Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Correction: Lex De Imperio MMDCCLXI
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53564 From: Lucius Quirinus Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53565 From: quintus_arrius_nauta Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Quintus Arrius Nauta - Oath of office
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53566 From: vallenporter Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53567 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: My first caerimonia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53568 From: M•IVL•SEVERVS Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53569 From: Michael Echevarria Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: First Saturnalia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53570 From: Marcus Martianius Gangalius Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: [ComitiaCuriata] Lictores are reqested to Witness the New Priest
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53571 From: Titus Flavius Aquila Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: AW: [NovaRoma-Announce] Correction: Lex De Imperio MMDCCLXI
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53572 From: Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: Welcome new Pontifices
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53573 From: Kristoffer From Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53574 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: Correction: Lex De Imperio MMDCCLXI
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53575 From: Ugo Coppola Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Oath of office in Latin: linguistic doubt
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53576 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: Oath of office in Latin: linguistic doubt
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53577 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: First Saturnalia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53578 From: Maior Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: First Saturnalia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53579 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53580 From: deciusiunius Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Recognition of new priesthoods
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53581 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: First Saturnalia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53582 From: deciusiunius Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Conferring of imperium
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53583 From: marcushoratius Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: a. d. XIX Kalendas Ianuaris
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53584 From: Maior Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: First Saturnalia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53585 From: marcushoratius Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: First Saturnalia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53586 From: Lucius Iulius Regulus Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: First Saturnalia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53587 From: Lucius Iulius Regulus Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: First Saturnalia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53588 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: First Saturnalia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53589 From: Adriano Rota Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: First Saturnalia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53590 From: Maior Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: First Saturnalia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53591 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: First Saturnalia--The God in the Sickle.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53592 From: marcus_hirtius_ahenobarbus Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: "Jesus never existed." STOP PLZ!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53593 From: Patrick D. Owen Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Saturnalia Practices of Nova Romans
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53594 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: Saturnalia Practices of Nova Romans
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53595 From: GAIVS IVLIANVS Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: First Saturnalia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53596 From: Lucius Quirinus Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53597 From: Marcus Iulius Perusianus Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Seven wonders of the Roman world: vote ends!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53598 From: Ugo Coppola Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Publius Constantinus Placidus: Oath of office (tri-lingual)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53599 From: Lucius Quirinus Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53600 From: Maior Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53601 From: Lucius Iulius Regulus Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53602 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53603 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Fine
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53604 From: Lucius Iulius Regulus Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: Fine
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53605 From: Lucius Iulius Regulus Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53606 From: Maior Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: Fine
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53607 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53608 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: Fine
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53609 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: In Japan
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53610 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: In Japan
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53611 From: Maior Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: Fine
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53612 From: Lucius Iulius Regulus Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: Fine
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53613 From: Bruno Cantermi Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed/An Unbelieveabl
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53614 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: Fine
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53615 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed/An Unbelieveabl
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53616 From: adriano.rota Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: How to handle the Lararium
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53617 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: How to handle the Lararium
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53618 From: Maior Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: Fine
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53619 From: luciusjul25@yahoo.com Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: How to handle the Lararium
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53620 From: luciusjul25@yahoo.com Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: Fine
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53621 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: Fine
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53622 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: The Myth of Fiorella LaGuardia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53623 From: marcushoratius Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: a. d. XVIII Kalendas Ianuaris
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53624 From: Maior Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: How to handle the Lararium
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53625 From: Lucius Iulius Regulus Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: Fine
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53626 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Re: How to handle the Lararium
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53627 From: Lucius Iulius Regulus Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Re: How to handle the Lararium
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53628 From: Svm Stoicus Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Fine
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53629 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Re: Fine
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53630 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Re: How to handle the Lararium
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53631 From: marcushoratius Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Re: How to handle the Lararium
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53632 From: Titus Flavius Aquila Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: AW: [Nova-Roma] Re: Fine
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53633 From: Vestinia, called Vesta Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Re: The Myth of Fiorella LaGuardia (OT: and silly)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53634 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Re: How to handle the Lararium
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53635 From: sstevemoore Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Orientation
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53636 From: GAIVS IVLIANVS Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Re: How to handle the Lararium
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53637 From: Marcus Arminius Maior Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Recognition of new priesthoods
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53638 From: Gens Iulia Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Re: The Myth of Fiorella LaGuardia - Christos Anubis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53639 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Re: a. d. XVIII Kalendas Ianuaris
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53640 From: marcushoratius Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Re: Orientation
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53641 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Re: How to handle the Lararium: The Turibulum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53642 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Re: Orientation
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53643 From: Adriano Rota Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Re: How to handle the Lararium: The Turibulum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53644 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Re: a. d. XVIII Kalendas Ianuaris
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53645 From: phoenixfyre17 Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Re: How to handle the Lararium: The Turibulum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53646 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Coal vs. Charcoal
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53647 From: Ice Hunter Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Re: How to handle the Lararium: The Turibulum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53648 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Re: How to handle the Lararium: The Turibulum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53649 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Re: How to handle the Lararium: The Turibulum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53650 From: Ice Hunter Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Re: How to handle the Lararium: The Turibulum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53651 From: Maior Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Re: How to handle the Lararium: The Turibulum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53652 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Re: How to handle the Lararium: The Turibulum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53653 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Re: How to handle the Lararium: The Turibulum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53654 From: Q. Caecilius Metellus Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Re: How to Handle the Lararium
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53655 From: marcushoratius Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: a. d. XVII Kalendas Ianuarias
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53656 From: Lucius Iulius Regulus Date: 2007-12-16
Subject: Re: Fine
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53657 From: Maior Date: 2007-12-16
Subject: Re: Fine
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53658 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2007-12-16
Subject: Re: YES on Lex Galeria de Cursu Honorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53659 From: L. Vitellius Triarius Date: 2007-12-16
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed/An Unbelieveabl
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53660 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2007-12-16
Subject: Re: Daily rituals in latin
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53661 From: L. Vitellius Triarius Date: 2007-12-16
Subject: Re: YES on Lex Galeria de Cursu Honorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53662 From: L. Vitellius Triarius Date: 2007-12-16
Subject: Re: Daily rituals in latin
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53663 From: Quintus Fabius Sanga Date: 2007-12-16
Subject: Re: Fine
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53664 From: Lucius Iulius Regulus Date: 2007-12-16
Subject: Re: Fine
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53665 From: Lucius Iulius Regulus Date: 2007-12-16
Subject: Cults of the Roman Empire
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53666 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2007-12-16
Subject: Please trim your posts
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53667 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2007-12-16
Subject: a.s. I diem Natalem Christi
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53668 From: L. Vitellius Triarius Date: 2007-12-16
Subject: Re: Please trim your posts
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53669 From: liviacases Date: 2007-12-16
Subject: Re: How to Handle the Lararium



Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53494 From: Lucius Quirinus Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Salvete Omnes

there is no ancient text of any known contemporary
historician telling anything about a certain Jesus
Christ(nb: Christ is NOT a Family Name; it merely
means "Messiah"...)...about the fact that he "walked
on water", "multiplied fishes" and was finally
"Crucified"(n.b. the Roman way used to crucify
criminals did NOT make use of any "Cross" and
"Nails").....and the like.

The ONLY (contraddictory)tales we know about Jesus
Messiah are through the "Evangelists" whose complete
names and deeds in life are totally unknown.

If anybody can tell me the name of a known
hystorician(Plinus,etc.)telling anything about Jesus Christ/Messiah' Life and deeds please let me
know.

Thanks in advance.

That's why the most reasonable conclusion is that
Jesus Never Exsisted; it is just a tale, like
Cinderella.

VALETE OPTIME
LVCIVS Q. VESTA


--- phoenixfyre17 <phoenixfyre17@...> ha
scritto:

> Salve Nabarz,
>
> I know in some Italian and Italian-American
> families, the Epiphany
> is celebrated as the day when Befana (a kind old
> witch) delivers
> gifts to children while flying around on her broom.
>
> An older Italian version of the modern Santa Claus,
> if you will.
>
> Vale optime,
> Nero
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Nabarz"
> <nabarz@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > >
> > > It just so happens that in this particular
> instance, it seems
> that at
> > > least one Christian writer (Iulius Africanus)
> had already
> calculated a
> > > date for the celebration of the birth of Christ
> as 25 December -
> for
> > > whatever reason - before any other "solar deity"
> had made his
> imprint.
> > >
> > Salve Cato,
> >
> > Putting the Armenian Church aside who celebrates
> Christmas on 6th
> > ofJanuary still.
> >
> > Just to be clear, according Iulius Africanus
> Christ was conceived
> (25
> > March) i.e. shortly after Spring Equinox (21st
> March) and was born
> > (25Dec) shortly after Winter Solstice (21
> December).
> >
> > Perfect, now that is called an accurate Solar god
> ;-)
> >
> > Christ as a light of world, is conceived at the
> balance of
> light/dark,
> > and born at time of darkness, bringing light to
> world. Sounds good
> to me.
> >
> > The winter solstice and return of light has been
> marked and
> celebrated
> > for a very long time before Christ, for physical
> evidence e.g look
> at
> > sites like Stonehenge.
> >
> > Anyway have a great Christmas, Winter Solstice,
> Yule, Shabe Yalda,
> > Alban Arthuran etc...
> >
> > I guess the point is many people from different
> cultures and
> religions
> > celebrate return and birth of light, the label we
> give it is
> secondary
> > imho.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Nabarz



___________________________________
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53495 From: Maior Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: The Year of Concordia - The Tenth Anniversary of Nova Roma
Maior Lentulo Modianoque spd;
what an excellent idea. Please apply for sacerdos Concordiae
Lentule, the cultores can only benefit when we have such devoted and
intelligent cives like you taking religious posts. It's wonderful
for us & for Pannonia.
bene valete
Marca Hortensia Maior

>
> I encourage you to apply for sacerdos, I will certainly support
you!
>
> Vale:
>
> Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus
>
> On Dec 12, 2007 11:03 AM, Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus
> <cn_corn_lent@...> wrote:
> >
> > Do you doubt my motives? If you explain what your suspicion is
exactly, I
> > will try clean up things and will try to convince you.
> >
> >
> > Vale!
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53496 From: Maior Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi
Maior Catoni spd:
these links are Christian apologetics, which of course you can
post, but say so please. I went to them to see scholarly articles.
When I posted a scholarly Kabbalah link for Gaia Iulia Agrippa, I
made sure to mention the author was Rabbi Steinsaltz, who is a
famous scholar of Kabbalah but also a devout Jew, it skews the
argument. Such things are very important.
bene vale
Maior

>
> Salvete.
>
> Here's a different take on Christianity and Mithraism:
>
> http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/mithra.html
>
> http://christopherbutler.wordpress.com/2006/10/07/jesus-is-not-a-
mithras-redux/
>
> http://www.religionfacts.com/greco-roman/sects/mithraism.htm
>
> Valete,
>
> Cato
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Vitellius Triarius"
> <lucius_vitellius_triarius@> wrote:
> >
> > Salvete,
> >
> > Here is an interesting article on the Saturnalia and Christmas
and
> > Easter.
> >
> > http://www.ccg.org/english/s/p235.html
> >
> > Vale optime,
> > Triarius
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53497 From: Ice Hunter Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: YES on Lex Galeria de Cursu Honorum
Salve Ti. Galeri Pauline,

>What changes would give it the flexibility you would require in order to
>support it and
>that would not gut its intent?

The changes I would suggest will, I suspect, be as unpalatable as your proposed lex, and make it a great deal more cumbersome. But I will offer my suggestions nonetheless.

1) If there are sufficient eligible candidates to fill the position(s) during the first call for candidates, those who have not followed the cursus may run, but if they are elected would be awarded the century points due the lowest office they have passed over. Should there be insufficient eligible candidates for the openings during the first call for candidates, then full century points would be awarded to all of those elected to office.

2) In instances where a seated magistrate runs for office, not taking the suggested year off, they would receive two-thirds of the century points for the position if they should win. If there are insufficient candidates for the number of positions, then full points will be awarded to all elected officials.

3) Section VIII must go. I understand why you see it a as a precautionary measure, but the reality is that it could unjustly punish someone for events out of their control.

Even so, I'm not entirely certain I would vote for a such a lex. Would it not be better to let the voters decide if breaking tradition is acceptable?

Vale optime,
T. Artoria Marcella

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53498 From: Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kelly Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Salvete Luci Q. Vesta,

From what I read Jesus is mentioned very briefly in passing by
Tacitus, Suetonius, Pliny and Josephus but on the latter, there is
some debate, or conspiracy theory if you will that this was later
added by Christian scholars themselves.

Since the early 60's I have heard all sorts of debates, read books
both real and fiction that Jesus was everything from just a made up
legend to an entity or myth that went back to the Egyptian God
Horace who had twelve aids, born from a virgin, was killed and
resurrected. The problem is when examined in close detail by other
academics, they say there is a lot of speculation and shoe horning
of ideas into these out of the way theories because there are so
many religions where gods die and are again reborn.

Finally, Christ would not have been that unique at first in the
context of his times. There were numerous miracle working prophets
in Palestine and the rest of the Empire and that would include John
the Baptist to later, Simon The Magician. It seems Jesus message had
a better impact and Paul was the one who actually took it from a 50
km radius to the whole Empire thanks to Pax Romana.

Usually I believe that the best explanations are the simplest in
dealing with things from science to history and it is easier to buy
the idea that Christ existed as a historical figure as opposed to
outlandish conspiracy theories involving everything from obscure
Egyptian cults to the Knight Templar etc.

Valete bene,

Quintus Suetoinus Paulinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53499 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: YES on Lex Galeria de Cursu Honorum
Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus T. Artoriae Marcellae salutem dicit

The problem with your proposal is a programming one. The database is
set-up in a certain way and to keep modifying it just creates more
work for our already limited web team. Truth be told, the cursus
honorum was more custom than doctrine. In our modern culture it seems
"we" tend to think doctrinally and with absolutes rather than in
custom and tradition.

Vale:

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus

On Dec 12, 2007 2:47 PM, Ice Hunter <icehunter@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Ti. Galeri Pauline,
>
>
> >What changes would give it the flexibility you would require in order to
> >support it and
> >that would not gut its intent?
>
> The changes I would suggest will, I suspect, be as unpalatable as your
> proposed lex, and make it a great deal more cumbersome. But I will offer my
> suggestions nonetheless.
>
> 1) If there are sufficient eligible candidates to fill the position(s)
> during the first call for candidates, those who have not followed the cursus
> may run, but if they are elected would be awarded the century points due the
> lowest office they have passed over. Should there be insufficient eligible
> candidates for the openings during the first call for candidates, then full
> century points would be awarded to all of those elected to office.
>
> 2) In instances where a seated magistrate runs for office, not taking the
> suggested year off, they would receive two-thirds of the century points for
> the position if they should win. If there are insufficient candidates for
> the number of positions, then full points will be awarded to all elected
> officials.
>
> 3) Section VIII must go. I understand why you see it a as a precautionary
> measure, but the reality is that it could unjustly punish someone for events
> out of their control.
>
> Even so, I'm not entirely certain I would vote for a such a lex. Would it
> not be better to let the voters decide if breaking tradition is acceptable?
>
> Vale optime,
>
> T. Artoria Marcella
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53500 From: Patrick D. Owen Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Fl. Galerius Aurelianus S.P.D.

"Jewish Antiquities", by Flavius Josephus. Book 18, Chapter 3,
paragraphs 1-5. Paragraph 3 is the Testimonium Flavianum itself,
which contains the reference to Jesus Christ.


Chapter 3.

Rebellion of the Jews against Pontius Pilate. Concerning Christ, and
what befell Paulina and the Jews at Rome.

1. (55) But now Pilate, the procurator of Judea, removed the army
from Caesarea to Jerusalem, to take their winter quarters there, in
order to abolish the Jewish laws. So he introduced Caesar's
effigies, which were upon the ensigns, and brought them into the
city; whereas our law forbids us the very making of images; (56) on
which account the former procurators were accustomed to make their
entry into the city with such ensigns as had not those ornaments.
Pilate was the first who brought those images to Jerusalem, and set
them up there; which was done without the knowledge of the people,
because it was done in the nighttime; (57) but as soon as they knew
it, they came in multitudes to Caesarea, and interceded with Pilate
many days that he would remove the images; and when he would not
grant their requests, because it would tend to the injury of Caesar,
while yet they persevered in their request, on the sixth day he
ordered his soldiers to have their weapons privately, while he came
and sat upon his judgment seat, which seat was so prepared in the
open place of the city, that it concealed the army that lay ready to
oppress them; (58) and when the Jews petitioned him again, he gave a
signal to the soldiers to surround them, and threatened that their
punishment should be no less than immediate death, unless they would
leave off disturbing him, and go their ways home. (59) But they
threw themselves upon the ground, and laid their necks bare, and
said they would take their death very willingly, rather than the
wisdom of their laws should be transgressed; upon which Pilate was
deeply affected with their firm resolution to keep their laws
inviolable, and presently commanded the images to be carried back
from Jerusalem to Caesarea.

2. (60) But Pilate undertook to bring a current of water to
Jerusalem, and did it with the sacred money, and derived the origin
of the stream from the distance of two hundred furlongs. However,
the Jews [1] were not pleased with what had been done about this
water; and many ten thousands of the people got together, and made a
clamor against him, and insisted that he should leave off that
design. Some of them also used reproaches, and abused the man, as
crowds of such people usually do. (61) So he outfitted a great
number of his soldiers in the clothing of the crowd, who carried
daggers under their garments, and sent them to a place where they
might surround them. So he directed the Jews himself to go away; but
when they boldly cast reproaches upon him, he gave the soldiers that
signal which had been beforehand agreed on; (62) who laid upon them
much greater blows than Pilate had commanded them, and equally
punished those that were disorderly, and those that were not; nor
did they spare them in the least: and since the people were unarmed,
and were caught by men prepared for what they were about, there were
a great number of them killed by this means, and others of them ran
away wounded. And thus an end was put to this rebellion.

3. (63) Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, a doer of
wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with
pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the
Gentiles. (64) And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal
men among us, had condemned him to the cross [2], those that loved
him at the first did not forsake him. And the tribe of Christians,
so named for him, are not extinct at this day.

This is a revised version that eliminates changes supposedly made by
either Eusebius or Origen of Caesarea in the latter third or early
fourth centuries C.E.

In addition, archaeologists have found evidence in Caesarea Maritima
that Pontius Pilate was indeed procurator in Judaea during the reign
of Tiberius. In an odd Ben Hur connection, tiles and stone work
with his name were located in the area of the Hippodrome in Caesarea.

Also, the sarcophagus of Calliphas the High Priest was located in
Jerusalem during the 1990s.

I'd say that there would appear to be some evidence about the
existense of Jesus in history and archaeology.

Valete.



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Lucius Quirinus <ostiaaterni@...>
wrote:
>
> Salvete Omnes
>
> there is no ancient text of any known contemporary
> historician telling anything about a certain Jesus
> Christ(nb: Christ is NOT a Family Name; it merely
> means "Messiah"...)...

> VALETE OPTIME
> LVCIVS Q. VESTA
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53501 From: Titus Flavius Aquila Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: AW: [Nova-Roma] The Year of Concordia - The Tenth Anniversary of Nov
T.Flavius Aquila C.Fabi Buteo Modiano salutem plurimam dicit

Next year will be a very special year for us , for our res publica, 10 years, I am convinced that within
next year important decisions will be taken to progress in reaching our goals .

Pro Res Publica ! Pro Patria ! Pro Concordia !

I support Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus request and I support as well your excellent proposal for sacerdos
Concordiae Lentule.

Titus Flavius Aquila
Tribunus Plebis
Scriba Censoris KFBM
Nova Roma



----- Ursprüngliche Mail ----
Von: David Kling (Modianus) <tau.athanasios@...>
An: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Gesendet: Mittwoch, den 12. Dezember 2007, 17:28:33 Uhr
Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] The Year of Concordia - The Tenth Anniversary of Nova Roma

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus Gnaeo Cornelio Lentulo salutem dicit

I do not doubt your motives. I believe you to be sincere. However,
some of us -- myself included -- have "battle scars" from all the
battles in the Collegium Pontificum, Senate, etc... This being the
case I have a difficult time trusting the motivations of others, and
this was a reason I opposed the move that Scaurus tried last year.

As censor I've seen people leave Nova Roma because of the
dysfunctional aspects of Nova Roma. I believe some people would use
this dedication to Concordia as a smoke screen for either inactivity
or to conduct further mayhem.

I encourage you to apply for sacerdos, I will certainly support you!

Vale:

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus

On Dec 12, 2007 11:03 AM, Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus
<cn_corn_lent@ yahoo.it> wrote:
>
> Do you doubt my motives? If you explain what your suspicion is exactly, I
> will try clean up things and will try to convince you.
>
>
> Vale!




__________________________________ Ihr erstes Baby? Holen Sie sich Tipps von anderen Eltern. www.yahoo.de/clever

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53502 From: Patrick D. Owen Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Fl. Galerius Aurelianus S.P.D.

Philo of Alexandria doesn't mention Jesus once in all of his extant
writings and he was a contemporary of Jesus who had spent time in
Jerusalem and was connected by marriage to the House of Herod. He
does record the following in FLACCUS:

The Works of Philo Judaeus – Flaccus, VI.

(36) There was a certain madman named Carabbas ... this man spent
all this days and nights naked in the roads, minding neither cold
nor heat, the sport of idle children and wanton youths;

(37) and they, driving the poor wretch as far as the public
gymnasium, and setting him up there on high that he might be seen by
everybody, flattened out a leaf of papyrus and put it on his head
instead of a diadem, and clothed the rest of his body with a common
door mat instead of a cloak and instead of a sceptre they put in his
hand a small stick of the native papyrus which they found lying by
the way side and gave to him;

(38) and when, like actors in theatrical spectacles, he had received
all the insignia of royal authority, and had been dressed and
adorned like a king, the young men bearing sticks on their shoulders
stood on each side of him instead of spear-bearers, in imitation of
the bodyguards of the king, and then others came up, some as if to
salute him, and others making as though they wished to plead their
causes before him, and others pretending to wish to consult with him
about the affairs of the state.

(39) Then from the multitude of those who were standing around there
arose a wonderful shout of men calling out Maris!; and this is the
name by which it is said that they call the kings among the Syrians;
for they knew that Agrippa was by birth a Syrian, and also that he
was possessed of a great district of Syria of which he was the
sovereign;

Now, the Gospel according to Matthew records:

27:26 Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged
Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified.

27:27 Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the common
hall, and gathered unto him the whole band of soldiers.

27:28 And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe.

27:29 And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon
his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee
before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!

Kind of does make you wonder. You should read about the origin and
practices of the Cultus of Glycon!

Valete.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53503 From: Patrick D. Owen Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Fl. Galerius Aurelianus S.P.D.

Now Pliny the Younger and Tacitus were not contemporaries of Jesus
but wrote about Jesus and his cultus within the living memory of
those who had followed Jesus.

Tacitus:

Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their
abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom
the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the
reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most
mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke
out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in
Rome. . . .{5}

5. Tacitus, Annals 15.44, cited in Strobel, The Case for Christ, 82.


Pliny the Younger:

They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it
was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as
to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked
deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to
falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon
to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and
then reassemble to partake of food--but food of an ordinary and
innocent kind.{10}

10. Pliny, Letters, transl. by William Melmoth, rev. by W.M.L.
Hutchinson (Cambridge: Harvard Univ. Press, 1935), vol. II, X:96,
cited in Habermas, The Historical Jesus, 199.

Valete.





--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick D. Owen"
<Patrick.Owen@...> wrote:
>
> Fl. Galerius Aurelianus S.P.D.
>
> Philo of Alexandria doesn't mention Jesus once in all of his
extant
> writings and he was a contemporary of Jesus who had spent time in
> Jerusalem and was connected by marriage to the House of Herod. He
> does record the following in FLACCUS:
>
> The Works of Philo Judaeus – Flaccus, VI.
>
> (36) There was a certain madman named Carabbas ... this man spent
> all this days and nights naked in the roads, minding neither cold
> nor heat, the sport of idle children and wanton youths;
>
> (37) and they, driving the poor wretch as far as the public
> gymnasium, and setting him up there on high that he might be seen
by
> everybody, flattened out a leaf of papyrus and put it on his head
> instead of a diadem, and clothed the rest of his body with a
common
> door mat instead of a cloak and instead of a sceptre they put in
his
> hand a small stick of the native papyrus which they found lying by
> the way side and gave to him;
>
> (38) and when, like actors in theatrical spectacles, he had
received
> all the insignia of royal authority, and had been dressed and
> adorned like a king, the young men bearing sticks on their
shoulders
> stood on each side of him instead of spear-bearers, in imitation
of
> the bodyguards of the king, and then others came up, some as if to
> salute him, and others making as though they wished to plead their
> causes before him, and others pretending to wish to consult with
him
> about the affairs of the state.
>
> (39) Then from the multitude of those who were standing around
there
> arose a wonderful shout of men calling out Maris!; and this is the
> name by which it is said that they call the kings among the
Syrians;
> for they knew that Agrippa was by birth a Syrian, and also that he
> was possessed of a great district of Syria of which he was the
> sovereign;
>
> Now, the Gospel according to Matthew records:
>
> 27:26 Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had
scourged
> Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified.
>
> 27:27 Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the common
> hall, and gathered unto him the whole band of soldiers.
>
> 27:28 And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe.
>
> 27:29 And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it
upon
> his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee
> before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!
>
> Kind of does make you wonder. You should read about the origin
and
> practices of the Cultus of Glycon!
>
> Valete.
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53504 From: marcushoratius Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Hoc Agete! [ a. d. III Eidus Decembris]
Salve Cato

True, but under certain circumstances. A good death is the
culmination of a fortunate life. How one died was thought sometimes
to define a man's life. A Roman might be offered the option of
suicide. Although this would not be the best way to go, he could
thereby defend his own family since they would then be allowed to
inherit if he died while still a Roman citizen.

What Merula did was not the same. He was not in any danger. His
political opponents had control of the City and did him no harm,
although the vulgar masses were flinging their usual vulgarities
toward him. He committed suicide not as a duty to others, but due to
his own pride and fear. It did it as an act of political protest, he
did it in a form that made it a human sacrifice. Off the top of my
head the only thing I can think as comparable was Verginius slaying
his daughter Virginia in protest, you could say, towards the decision
of the decemviri, but remember, too, that he slew her so that she
would not be defiled by a lusting Appius Claudius. Merula did what
he did, on the other hand, in order to defile the Altar of Jupiter
with a human sacrifice of Jupiter's priest. Verginius acted within
his right as a father, terrible as it was. Merula committed an act
of incestum, and worse still an act of incestum against the Highest
God, Jupiter Optimus Maximus.

Merula's suicide was much greater than anything with which to compare
that it is from this, the degree of which his act was incestum, that
one might say that he stained the office as well. Remember, though,
that I said I thought instead that his officed remained vacant for a
different reason.

Vale optime vade cum Deo
Piscinus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Equitius Cato"
<mlcinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> Cato M. Moravio Piscino sal.
>
> Salve Moravius Piscinus!
>
>
> :-)
>
>
> It's an interesting concept, the idea that the office itself might
be
> polluted by the "stain" of its previous occupant having killed
himself
> in such a spectacular (in every sense of the word) manner.
Especially
> as suicide was considered a proper - even noble - act under certain
> circumstances.
>
> Vale bene,
>
> Cato
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53505 From: Michael Echevarria Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: AW: [Nova-Roma] The Year of Concordia - The Tenth Anniversary of
Salve,

Yes indeed it should be a good year for all Nova Romans. Hopefully the New Year would bring forth great change within ourselves and Nova Roma. A chance for new ideas to be expressed and accepted so that not only we can survive for another 10 years but for thousands of years in the future. I am sure the Gods will welcome these changes and welcome the decisions made in the next year.

Lucius Iulius Regulus

Titus Flavius Aquila <titus.aquila@...> wrote:
T.Flavius Aquila C.Fabi Buteo Modiano salutem plurimam dicit

Next year will be a very special year for us , for our res publica, 10 years, I am convinced that within
next year important decisions will be taken to progress in reaching our goals .

Pro Res Publica ! Pro Patria ! Pro Concordia !

I support Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus request and I support as well your excellent proposal for sacerdos
Concordiae Lentule.

Titus Flavius Aquila
Tribunus Plebis
Scriba Censoris KFBM
Nova Roma

----- Ursprüngliche Mail ----
Von: David Kling (Modianus) <tau.athanasios@...>
An: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Gesendet: Mittwoch, den 12. Dezember 2007, 17:28:33 Uhr
Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] The Year of Concordia - The Tenth Anniversary of Nova Roma

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus Gnaeo Cornelio Lentulo salutem dicit

I do not doubt your motives. I believe you to be sincere. However,
some of us -- myself included -- have "battle scars" from all the
battles in the Collegium Pontificum, Senate, etc... This being the
case I have a difficult time trusting the motivations of others, and
this was a reason I opposed the move that Scaurus tried last year.

As censor I've seen people leave Nova Roma because of the
dysfunctional aspects of Nova Roma. I believe some people would use
this dedication to Concordia as a smoke screen for either inactivity
or to conduct further mayhem.

I encourage you to apply for sacerdos, I will certainly support you!

Vale:

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus

On Dec 12, 2007 11:03 AM, Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus
<cn_corn_lent@ yahoo.it> wrote:
>
> Do you doubt my motives? If you explain what your suspicion is exactly, I
> will try clean up things and will try to convince you.
>
>
> Vale!

__________________________________ Ihr erstes Baby? Holen Sie sich Tipps von anderen Eltern. www.yahoo.de/clever

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53506 From: Michael Echevarria Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi
Salve,

This was a very interesting article and would like to thank you for posting it. It was definitely worth taking the time to read it. I think, in the spirit of education, should pass this on to everyone we know, especially Christians, so that they can get a bigger scope of their religion. This information is probably why the whole story is not taught in private schools which in turn insults the intelligence of potential followers. They believe every word that escapes their lips because they are taught to do so because their teachers are suppose to know everything about the subject they teach. It is embarrassing that instead of leading them closer to God they continue to stray them away.

A question I have is does anyone know of any information regarding the issue of the altars in Roman Catholic churches?? I have heard information, although unofficial, that the altars in Roman Catholic churches all face in the eastern direction. If anyone can provide information on this issue would be a great help. Thank you in advance.

Lucius Iulius Regulus

"L. Vitellius Triarius" <lucius_vitellius_triarius@...> wrote:
Salvete,

Here is an interesting article on the Saturnalia and Christmas and
Easter.

http://www.ccg.org/english/s/p235.html

Vale optime,
Triarius






---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53507 From: Titus Iulius Sabinus Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: The Year of Concordia - The Tenth Anniversary of Nova Roma
SALVETE!

I agree with Censor Modianus here. It's very difficult for all of us
to take this major engagement to Concordia. It's very difficult
because if we can't respect it what will be the course of things?
How we can respect our word if in some situation that will be not
possible?
Well, we can only act in this direction and we can hope that all can
be fine moved on.

VALETE,
IVL SABINVS

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "David Kling (Modianus)"
<tau.athanasios@...> wrote:
>
> Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus Gnaeo Cornelio Lentulo salutem dicit
>
> I do not doubt your motives. I believe you to be sincere.
However,
> some of us -- myself included -- have "battle scars" from all the
> battles in the Collegium Pontificum, Senate, etc... This being the
> case I have a difficult time trusting the motivations of others,
and
> this was a reason I opposed the move that Scaurus tried last year.
>
> As censor I've seen people leave Nova Roma because of the
> dysfunctional aspects of Nova Roma. I believe some people would
use
> this dedication to Concordia as a smoke screen for either
inactivity
> or to conduct further mayhem.
>
> I encourage you to apply for sacerdos, I will certainly support
you!
>
> Vale:
>
> Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus
>
> On Dec 12, 2007 11:03 AM, Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus
> <cn_corn_lent@...> wrote:
> >
> > Do you doubt my motives? If you explain what your suspicion is
exactly, I
> > will try clean up things and will try to convince you.
> >
> >
> > Vale!
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53508 From: liviacases Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: The Year of Concordia - The Tenth Anniversary of Nova Roma
L. Livia Plauta omnibus quiritibus SPD.

It's interesting that I and Lentulus seem to be on the same
wavelenght.
We hadn't talked about this yet, but in my mind I was formulating a
plan to ask him to conduct a big sacrifice to Concordia at the
beginning of next year.
I was thinking of something private, or at most on the behalf of the
tribuni plebis.

Of course it's not by chance that we though of the same thing, but as
a result of the bickering, quarreling and needless provoking which
goes on continouously in Nova Roma.

Today I was pondering how many bottles of wine it would take to get
Concordia to intervene in such a situation, and what else I could
offer up for sacrifice. Maybe a piglet or a goat?
Is there anything that would be practical, yet proportioned to the
magnitude of the task we ask of the Goddess?

It's obvious we desperately need her help.

Valete omnes.

L. Livia Plauta
Tribuna plebis
Scriba legati pro praetore Pannoniae
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53509 From: marcushoratius Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: The Year of Concordia - The Tenth Anniversary of Nova Roma
Salve Lentule

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus
<cn_corn_lent@...> wrote:
>
> Therefore I suggest our consules, consules designati and
pontifices to take into consideration to consecrate the next year and
dedicate to Dea Concordia and call it as "Annus Sacer Concordiae
Novae Romae" - "The Sacred Year of the Concord of Nova Roma".
>

MMPH: I think that we all need to work together so that may look back
on our Anniversary as the year that was our Annus Sacer Concordiae
Nova Roma.

> Let Godess Concordia have an official sacerdos and virtual
temple, worship Her on every Kalends and Ides of 2761 with public
prayers through the sacerdos Concordiae.
>

MMPH: And I would encourage you to apply as sacerdos for Concordia.
I have seen several appeals made to Her over the years, all for
naught while so many ignored these. Nova Roma turned its back on
Concordia in the past, and thereby towards the Gods. We could all
use the reminders you would offer to us, not just next year, but in
every year. And we should also seek to appease the Goddess whom we
have shunned too often. I would think therefore that the Collegium
Pontificum would welcome having a sacerdos to take up thart service
and devotion.

Di Deaeque te semper ament. Vade in Concordia

M Moravius Piscinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53510 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
> A. Tullia Scholastica L. Quirino quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque bonae
> voluntatis S.P.D.
>
>
>
> Salvete Omnes
>
> there is no ancient text of any known contemporary
> historician telling anything about a certain Jesus
> Christ(nb: Christ is NOT a Family Name; it merely
> means "Messiah"...).
>
>
> ATS: No, Christos does NOT mean messiah; it means anointed, i.e.,
> Anointed One as a personal name. It is, however, used to translate the Hebrew
> word messiah. For phonological reasons, it was often confused with Chrestos,
> a common slave name, which means useful or serviceable.
>
> ..about the fact that he "walked
> on water", "multiplied fishes" and was finally
> "Crucified"(n.b. the Roman way used to crucify
> criminals did NOT make use of any "Cross" and
> "Nails").....and the like.
>
> ATS: If the Romans did not use nails or crosses, could you possibly
> explain the use of the Latin curse I in malam crucem, go to the
> evil/wicked/etc. cross, or the archaeological finding of a the skeleton of a
> person with nails between the two bones of the lower arms? The Greek word
> kheir, often translated hand, really means hand and lower arm, so nails in the
> hands might well mean nails in the lower arm, not to mention that the hands
> are unlikely to support this procedure for the necessary time. Apparently
> ropes rather than nails were used at times, but it seems evident that the
> Romans did indeed practice crucifixion with nails.
>
> The ONLY (contraddictory)tales we know about Jesus
> Messiah are through the "Evangelists" whose complete
> names and deeds in life are totally unknown.
>
> If anybody can tell me the name of a known
> hystorician(Plinus,etc.)telling anything about Jesus Christ/Messiah' Life and
> deeds please let me
> know.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> That's why the most reasonable conclusion is that
> Jesus Never Exsisted; it is just a tale, like
> Cinderella.
>
> ATS: There seems to be abundant evidence that there was a historical
> person named Jesus. Moreover, at least some of his biographical details also
> seem to be supported by historians. I leave the rest for historians and
> theologians.
>
> VALETE OPTIME
> LVCIVS Q. VESTA
>
>
> Vale, et valete.
>
>
> --- phoenixfyre17 <phoenixfyre17@... <mailto:phoenixfyre17%40yahoo.com>
> > ha
> scritto:
>
>> > Salve Nabarz,
>> >
>> > I know in some Italian and Italian-American
>> > families, the Epiphany
>> > is celebrated as the day when Befana (a kind old
>> > witch) delivers
>> > gifts to children while flying around on her broom.
>> >
>> > An older Italian version of the modern Santa Claus,
>> > if you will.
>> >
>> > Vale optime,
>> > Nero
>> >
>> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com> ,
>> "Nabarz"
>> > <nabarz@...> wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > It just so happens that in this particular
>> > instance, it seems
>> > that at
>>>> > > > least one Christian writer (Iulius Africanus)
>> > had already
>> > calculated a
>>>> > > > date for the celebration of the birth of Christ
>> > as 25 December -
>> > for
>>>> > > > whatever reason - before any other "solar deity"
>> > had made his
>> > imprint.
>>>> > > >
>>> > > Salve Cato,
>>> > >
>>> > > Putting the Armenian Church aside who celebrates
>> > Christmas on 6th
>>> > > ofJanuary still.
>>> > >
>>> > > Just to be clear, according Iulius Africanus
>> > Christ was conceived
>> > (25
>>> > > March) i.e. shortly after Spring Equinox (21st
>> > March) and was born
>>> > > (25Dec) shortly after Winter Solstice (21
>> > December).
>>> > >
>>> > > Perfect, now that is called an accurate Solar god
>> > ;-)
>>> > >
>>> > > Christ as a light of world, is conceived at the
>> > balance of
>> > light/dark,
>>> > > and born at time of darkness, bringing light to
>> > world. Sounds good
>> > to me.
>>> > >
>>> > > The winter solstice and return of light has been
>> > marked and
>> > celebrated
>>> > > for a very long time before Christ, for physical
>> > evidence e.g look
>> > at
>>> > > sites like Stonehenge.
>>> > >
>>> > > Anyway have a great Christmas, Winter Solstice,
>> > Yule, Shabe Yalda,
>>> > > Alban Arthuran etc...
>>> > >
>>> > > I guess the point is many people from different
>> > cultures and
>> > religions
>>> > > celebrate return and birth of light, the label we
>> > give it is
>> > secondary
>>> > > imho.
>>> > >
>>> > > Regards,
>>> > > Nabarz
>
> ___________________________________
>
>
> Messages in this topic
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/53356;
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53511 From: vallenporter Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi
>
> A question I have is does anyone know of any information regarding
the issue of the altars in Roman Catholic churches?? I have heard
information, although unofficial, that the altars in Roman Catholic
churches all face in the eastern direction. If anyone can provide
information on this issue would be a great help. Thank you in advance.
>
> Lucius Iulius Regulus
>
> "L. Vitellius Triarius" <lucius_vitellius_triarius@...> wrote:
> Salvete,
>
well up too Second Vatican Council ( late 60's) canon law said altars
must face JERUSALEM.
in other churchs ( none-rome{ eastern rite}) they still do, also in
most of the "magickal" ones like L.C.C. and others

Marcus Cornelius Felix
( Yes i have a copy of canon law at home for both the eastern rite
orders i was a kid in and the R.C.C.)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53512 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi
Salve:

Are you sure it was to face Jerusalem? I always thought it was
supposed to face East, the direction of the rising sun. I know in
Islam the prayer direction was towards Jerusalem when it was based in
Medinah, and then was moved towards Mecca.

Vale:

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus

2007/12/12 vallenporter <vallenporter@...>:
>
> >
> > A question I have is does anyone know of any information regarding
> the issue of the altars in Roman Catholic churches?? I have heard
> information, although unofficial, that the altars in Roman Catholic
> churches all face in the eastern direction. If anyone can provide
> information on this issue would be a great help. Thank you in advance.
> >
> > Lucius Iulius Regulus
> >
> > "L. Vitellius Triarius" <lucius_vitellius_triarius@...> wrote:
> > Salvete,
> >
> well up too Second Vatican Council ( late 60's) canon law said altars
> must face JERUSALEM.
> in other churchs ( none-rome{ eastern rite}) they still do, also in
> most of the "magickal" ones like L.C.C. and others
>
> Marcus Cornelius Felix
> ( Yes i have a copy of canon law at home for both the eastern rite
> orders i was a kid in and the R.C.C.)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53513 From: cassius622@aol.com Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Welcome new Pontifices
Salvete Omnes,

I would like to welcome Senator Fl. Galerius Aurelianus and Consul Elect
Marcus Moravius Piscinus as new Pontifices of Nova Roma!

Both Aurelianus and Piscinus have been active in the Religio and will be
excellent additions to the Collegium Pontificum. I believe that as Pontifices
they will be of great help in getting more public religious infrastructure
built, and rituals done in the coming year.

I hope all Citizens will join me in congratulating them both in their new
offices!

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Pontifex Maximus




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53514 From: Titus Arminius Genialis Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: RES: [Nova-Roma] The Year of Concordia - The Tenth Anniversary of No
Salve Lentule

Yes, this sounds to be an excellent idea!
And let me remember you that in Brasilia, we have a provincial temple for
Concordia, Pax and Salus Publica. I think we can work together on a
beautiful project this way...

Vale

TAGenialis
tagenialis@...


> -----Mensagem original-----
> De: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com] Em nome de Gnaeus
> Cornelius Lentulus
> Enviada em: quarta-feira, 12 de dezembro de 2007 13:19
> Para: Nova Roma ML
> Assunto: [Nova-Roma] The Year of Concordia - The Tenth
> Anniversary of Nova Roma
>
> Cn. Cornelius Lentulus summus sacerdos Pannoniae: consulibus,
> consulibus designatis, pontificibus, omnibusque sacerdotibus
> et Quiritibus s. p. d.:
>
>
> Esteemed consules, consules designati and pontifices!
>
>
> Nova Roma is going to arrive to its tenth anniversary and
> we must think about what kind of religious rites would be
> appropriate, convenient or necessary to its pious and good
> celebration. What are our big problems and who are those gods
> who weren't favourable enough for us?
>
>
> I think that Dea Concordia is whom we must call, for
> several grave reasons that you - longstanding citizens of NR
> - I'm sure, know very well.
>
> Nova Roma is too often suffers the lack of concord. Our
> continuous angry debutes, the secessions, resignations, civil
> hate and conflicts need remedy. Need remedy if we want to
> grow. And we indeed want to grow.
>
> If we truly beleive gods help us when we pray them - we
> must pray them asking their help. It seems that Dea Concordia
> does not look at us favourably. She is waiting for expiation:
> and in my opinion, Dea Concordia would be well expiated if we
> consecrated the Anniversal Year to Her. What do you think,
> consules, consules designati and pontifices? It would be a
> fine and Roman thing to do!
>
>
> Therefore I suggest our consules, consules designati and
> pontifices to take into consideration to consecrate the next
> year and dedicate to Dea Concordia and call it as "Annus
> Sacer Concordiae Novae Romae" - "The Sacred Year of the
> Concord of Nova Roma".
>
> Let Godess Concordia have an official sacerdos and virtual
> temple, worship Her on every Kalends and Ides of 2761 with
> public prayers through the sacerdos Concordiae.
>
> I was always a devoted worshipper of Dea Concordia and a
> voice of public concord and peace in Nova Roma, so if there
> would be no other qualified candidate, I would gladly apply
> to this priesthood and make the rites accurately and with
> competency, what you could see already from my public prayers.
>
> This is my religious and pious suggestion for the Anniversary.
>
> What do you say?
>
>
>
> CURATE UT VALEATIS RESQUE PUBLICA VALEAT!
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus,
> QUAESTOR CANDIDATUS
> R O G A T O R
> ------------------------------------------
> Legatus Pro Praetore Provinciae Pannoniae Sacerdos Provinciae
> Pannoniae Interpres Linguae Hungaricae Accensus Consulis Ti.
> Galerii Paulini Scriba Praetricis A. Tulliae Scholasticae
> Scriba Aedilis Curulis Iuliae Caesaris Cytheridis Aeges
> Scriba Interpretis Linguae Latinae A. Tulliae Scholasticae
> -------------------------------------------
> Decurio I. Sodalitatis Latinitatis
> Dominus Factionis Russatae
> Latinista, Classicus Philologus
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
> ---------------------------------
> L'email della prossima generazione? Puoi averla con la nuova
> Yahoo! Mail
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
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11:29
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53515 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: [NovaReligioRomana] Welcome new Pontifices
Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus Fl. Galerio Aureliano et Marco Moravio
Piscino salutem pluritem dicit

Congratulations on your appointment as pontifices. Well deserved.

Valete:

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus

2007/12/12 <cassius622@...>:
>
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> I would like to welcome Senator Fl. Galerius Aurelianus and Consul Elect
> Marcus Moravius Piscinus as new Pontifices of Nova Roma!
>
> Both Aurelianus and Piscinus have been active in the Religio and will be
> excellent additions to the Collegium Pontificum. I believe that as
> Pontifices they will be of great help in getting more public religious
> infrastructure built, and rituals done in the coming year.
>
> I hope all Citizens will join me in congratulating them both in their new
> offices!
>
> Valete,
>
> Marcus Cassius Julianus
> Pontifex Maximus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53516 From: M•IVL•SEVERVS Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: Welcome new Pontifices
Salvete omnes,

My sincerest congratulations to consul designatus Marcus Moravius Piscinus Horatianus and senator Fl. Galerius Aurelianus, for their appointment as pontifices of Nova Roma.
I am sure that they will devote their best efforts to the Immortal Gods and our Res publica.

Valete optime,


M•IVL•SEVERVS
SENATOR
PRÆTOR•ELECTVS
LEGATVS•PRO•PRÆTORE•PROVINCIƕMEXICO
SCRIBA•CENSORIS•C•F•B•M
INTERPRETER
MVSÆVS•COLLEGII•ERATOVS•SODALITATIS•MVSARVM
SOCIVS•CHORI•MVSARVM

---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53517 From: Maior Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Maior Aurelio sal;
Scholars today accept that that the Flavius Josephus piece
on Jesus is a forgery. I've reposted links to prominent Jews in
Jesus' day who never mentioned him.

Justus of Tiberia a Jew
Jew,http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=738&letter=J
who came from Galilee and was a contemporary of Jesus never
mentions Jesus in his entire history.

Philo of Alexandria, the great Jewish philosopher & historian, who
was in Jerusalem & mentions Pilate, never mentions Jesus.

Flavius Josephus, another contemporary & historian hardly mentions
Jesus either, all scholars agree that a part praising Jesus was
later put in by pious Christians.

So to the Jews of the time, Jesus was a non-figure of small if nil
importance. There is no historical evidence by contemporary Jewish
accounts that Jews believed Jesus was the Messiah.

Here is a fine resource from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem
http://www.dinur.org/resources/resourceCategoryDisplay.aspx?
categoryID=424&rsid=478 for internet resources on Jews, Gnosticism
and Early Christianity during the Roman Empire.

And finally here "Jesus in the Talmud"
,http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Talmud-Peter-
Schafer/dp/0691129266/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-6465316-1463346?
ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1175374518&sr=1-1
is a book by Professor Peter Schaefer of Princeton University

bene valete in pacem deorum
Marca Hortensia Maior

> >
> >
> > Salvete Omnes
> >
> > there is no ancient text of any known contemporary
> > historician telling anything about a certain Jesus
> > Christ(nb: Christ is NOT a Family Name; it merely
> > means "Messiah"...).
> >
> >
> > ATS: No, Christos does NOT mean messiah; it means anointed,
i.e.,
> > Anointed One as a personal name. It is, however, used to
translate the Hebrew
> > word messiah. For phonological reasons, it was often confused
with Chrestos,
> > a common slave name, which means useful or serviceable.
> >
> > ..about the fact that he "walked
> > on water", "multiplied fishes" and was finally
> > "Crucified"(n.b. the Roman way used to crucify
> > criminals did NOT make use of any "Cross" and
> > "Nails").....and the like.
> >
> > ATS: If the Romans did not use nails or crosses, could you
possibly
> > explain the use of the Latin curse I in malam crucem, go to the
> > evil/wicked/etc. cross, or the archaeological finding of a the
skeleton of a
> > person with nails between the two bones of the lower arms? The
Greek word
> > kheir, often translated hand, really means hand and lower arm,
so nails in the
> > hands might well mean nails in the lower arm, not to mention
that the hands
> > are unlikely to support this procedure for the necessary time.
Apparently
> > ropes rather than nails were used at times, but it seems evident
that the
> > Romans did indeed practice crucifixion with nails.
> >
> > The ONLY (contraddictory)tales we know about Jesus
> > Messiah are through the "Evangelists" whose complete
> > names and deeds in life are totally unknown.
> >
> > If anybody can tell me the name of a known
> > hystorician(Plinus,etc.)telling anything about Jesus
Christ/Messiah' Life and
> > deeds please let me
> > know.
> >
> > Thanks in advance.
> >
> > That's why the most reasonable conclusion is that
> > Jesus Never Exsisted; it is just a tale, like
> > Cinderella.
> >
> > ATS: There seems to be abundant evidence that there was a
historical
> > person named Jesus. Moreover, at least some of his biographical
details also
> > seem to be supported by historians. I leave the rest for
historians and
> > theologians.
> >
> > VALETE OPTIME
> > LVCIVS Q. VESTA
> >
> >
> > Vale, et valete.
> >
> >
> > --- phoenixfyre17 <phoenixfyre17@... <mailto:phoenixfyre17%
40yahoo.com>
> > > ha
> > scritto:
> >
> >> > Salve Nabarz,
> >> >
> >> > I know in some Italian and Italian-American
> >> > families, the Epiphany
> >> > is celebrated as the day when Befana (a kind old
> >> > witch) delivers
> >> > gifts to children while flying around on her broom.
> >> >
> >> > An older Italian version of the modern Santa Claus,
> >> > if you will.
> >> >
> >> > Vale optime,
> >> > Nero
> >> >
> >> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Nova-Roma%
40yahoogroups.com> ,
> >> "Nabarz"
> >> > <nabarz@> wrote:
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>>> > > >
> >>>> > > > It just so happens that in this particular
> >> > instance, it seems
> >> > that at
> >>>> > > > least one Christian writer (Iulius Africanus)
> >> > had already
> >> > calculated a
> >>>> > > > date for the celebration of the birth of Christ
> >> > as 25 December -
> >> > for
> >>>> > > > whatever reason - before any other "solar deity"
> >> > had made his
> >> > imprint.
> >>>> > > >
> >>> > > Salve Cato,
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Putting the Armenian Church aside who celebrates
> >> > Christmas on 6th
> >>> > > ofJanuary still.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Just to be clear, according Iulius Africanus
> >> > Christ was conceived
> >> > (25
> >>> > > March) i.e. shortly after Spring Equinox (21st
> >> > March) and was born
> >>> > > (25Dec) shortly after Winter Solstice (21
> >> > December).
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Perfect, now that is called an accurate Solar god
> >> > ;-)
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Christ as a light of world, is conceived at the
> >> > balance of
> >> > light/dark,
> >>> > > and born at time of darkness, bringing light to
> >> > world. Sounds good
> >> > to me.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > The winter solstice and return of light has been
> >> > marked and
> >> > celebrated
> >>> > > for a very long time before Christ, for physical
> >> > evidence e.g look
> >> > at
> >>> > > sites like Stonehenge.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Anyway have a great Christmas, Winter Solstice,
> >> > Yule, Shabe Yalda,
> >>> > > Alban Arthuran etc...
> >>> > >
> >>> > > I guess the point is many people from different
> >> > cultures and
> >> > religions
> >>> > > celebrate return and birth of light, the label we
> >> > give it is
> >> > secondary
> >>> > > imho.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Regards,
> >>> > > Nabarz
> >
> > ___________________________________
> >
> >
> > Messages in this topic
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/53356;
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53518 From: Ice Hunter Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: Welcome new Pontifices
Salvete omnes,

Cassius Julianus scripsit:

>I would like to welcome Senator Fl. Galerius Aurelianus and Consul Elect
>Marcus Moravius Piscinus as new Pontifices of Nova Roma!

As would I. Both cives are well deserving of the honor.

Valete bene,
Artoria Marcella


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53519 From: Gens Iulia Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Salvete!:
Just as a curious note...
THERE IS a book under that name, written by Emilio Bossi (Spanish translation done by E.Diaz Retg, "Jesucristo nunca ha existido", Editorial Atlante, Granada, Barcelona, 1903? - the final digit is a bit blurry). Most of the analysis being done here were done by Bossi in his book.
It is a rather interesting lecture. Maybe our fellow citizens in Italy might provide a more accurate info about it.
As for Flavius Galerius Aurelianus' quotes on Pliny and Tacitus... I'd like to be sure whether they said "Jesus" or "Christ". Otherwise... it would be like simply saying "the Messiah".
Valete.
Gaia Iulia Agrippa.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lucius Quirinus" <ostiaaterni@...>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 3:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed


> Salvete Omnes
>
> there is no ancient text of any known contemporary
> historician telling anything about a certain Jesus
> Christ(nb: Christ is NOT a Family Name; it merely
> means "Messiah"...)...about the fact that he "walked
> on water", "multiplied fishes" and was finally
> "Crucified"(n.b. the Roman way used to crucify
> criminals did NOT make use of any "Cross" and
> "Nails").....and the like.
>
> The ONLY (contraddictory)tales we know about Jesus
> Messiah are through the "Evangelists" whose complete
> names and deeds in life are totally unknown.
>
> If anybody can tell me the name of a known
> hystorician(Plinus,etc.)telling anything about Jesus Christ/Messiah' Life and deeds please let me
> know.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> That's why the most reasonable conclusion is that
> Jesus Never Exsisted; it is just a tale, like
> Cinderella.
>
> VALETE OPTIME
> LVCIVS Q. VESTA
>
>
> --- phoenixfyre17 <phoenixfyre17@...> ha
> scritto:
>
> > Salve Nabarz,
> >
> > I know in some Italian and Italian-American
> > families, the Epiphany
> > is celebrated as the day when Befana (a kind old
> > witch) delivers
> > gifts to children while flying around on her broom.
> >
> > An older Italian version of the modern Santa Claus,
> > if you will.
> >
> > Vale optime,
> > Nero
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Nabarz"
> > <nabarz@...> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > It just so happens that in this particular
> > instance, it seems
> > that at
> > > > least one Christian writer (Iulius Africanus)
> > had already
> > calculated a
> > > > date for the celebration of the birth of Christ
> > as 25 December -
> > for
> > > > whatever reason - before any other "solar deity"
> > had made his
> > imprint.
> > > >
> > > Salve Cato,
> > >
> > > Putting the Armenian Church aside who celebrates
> > Christmas on 6th
> > > ofJanuary still.
> > >
> > > Just to be clear, according Iulius Africanus
> > Christ was conceived
> > (25
> > > March) i.e. shortly after Spring Equinox (21st
> > March) and was born
> > > (25Dec) shortly after Winter Solstice (21
> > December).
> > >
> > > Perfect, now that is called an accurate Solar god
> > ;-)
> > >
> > > Christ as a light of world, is conceived at the
> > balance of
> > light/dark,
> > > and born at time of darkness, bringing light to
> > world. Sounds good
> > to me.
> > >
> > > The winter solstice and return of light has been
> > marked and
> > celebrated
> > > for a very long time before Christ, for physical
> > evidence e.g look
> > at
> > > sites like Stonehenge.
> > >
> > > Anyway have a great Christmas, Winter Solstice,
> > Yule, Shabe Yalda,
> > > Alban Arthuran etc...
> > >
> > > I guess the point is many people from different
> > cultures and
> > religions
> > > celebrate return and birth of light, the label we
> > give it is
> > secondary
> > > imho.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Nabarz
>
>
>
> ___________________________________
> L'email della prossima generazione? Puoi averla con la Nuova Yahoo! Mail: http://it.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> --
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>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53520 From: vallenporter Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi
-
in most eastern rites ( none rome) it was to face Jerusalem till Islam
took the city. most western rites just said East



-- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "David Kling (Modianus)"
<tau.athanasios@...> wrote:
>
> Salve:
>
> Are you sure it was to face Jerusalem? I always thought it was
> supposed to face East, the direction of the rising sun. I know in
> Islam the prayer direction was towards Jerusalem when it was based in
> Medinah, and then was moved towards Mecca.
>
> Vale:
>
> Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus
>
> 2007/12/12 vallenporter <vallenporter@...>:
> >
> > >
> > > A question I have is does anyone know of any information regarding
> > the issue of the altars in Roman Catholic churches?? I have heard
> > information, although unofficial, that the altars in Roman Catholic
> > churches all face in the eastern direction. If anyone can provide
> > information on this issue would be a great help. Thank you in
advance.
> > >
> > > Lucius Iulius Regulus
> > >
> > > "L. Vitellius Triarius" <lucius_vitellius_triarius@> wrote:
> > > Salvete,
> > >
> > well up too Second Vatican Council ( late 60's) canon law said altars
> > must face JERUSALEM.
> > in other churchs ( none-rome{ eastern rite}) they still do, also in
> > most of the "magickal" ones like L.C.C. and others
> >
> > Marcus Cornelius Felix
> > ( Yes i have a copy of canon law at home for both the eastern rite
> > orders i was a kid in and the R.C.C.)
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53521 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: Welcome new Pontifices
Cassi Pontifex Maxime salve !

> I believe that as Pontifices
> they will be of great help in getting more public religious
> infrastructure built, and rituals done in the coming year.

I beg your pardon but English is not my native language.
What kind of help did you talk about ? What is in your mind public
religious infrastructure ? What are public rituals ? And how do you
think those things realisable ? With a virtual people behind his
computer screens, living in many countries, how we can together pray
in public gods ? Where ? Where are public altars ? Where we can sing
anthems for gods and goddesses and religious hymns with pontifices ?
How can we sacrifice in public ? What sort of sacrifices ?

Many questions to which I do not see logical answers. Can you light
my mind and enjoy my heart about those problems ?

Cura ut valeas.

G Petronius Dexter.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53522 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: Welcome new Pontifices
Salve:

I have participated in several public rituals (ceremonies) with other
Nova Romans. We may have citizens all over the world, and we may
communicate with one another mainly through e-mail, but Nova Roma is
not a "virtual community." As an augur I inaugurated Pontifex
Metellus as a Pagan gathering in Ohio (USA) back in 2005. I've
participated in religious ceremonies with Pontifex Metellus on more
than one occasion as well as other Nova Romans.

The whole POINT is to take Nova Roma beyond just a virtual
conversation group and actually perform rituals to the Gods, engage in
Roman discussion face to face, etc...

Vale:

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus

2007/12/12 Gaius Petronius Dexter <jfarnoud94@...>:
>
> Cassi Pontifex Maxime salve !
>
>
> > I believe that as Pontifices
> > they will be of great help in getting more public religious
> > infrastructure built, and rituals done in the coming year.
>
> I beg your pardon but English is not my native language.
> What kind of help did you talk about ? What is in your mind public
> religious infrastructure ? What are public rituals ? And how do you
> think those things realisable ? With a virtual people behind his
> computer screens, living in many countries, how we can together pray
> in public gods ? Where ? Where are public altars ? Where we can sing
> anthems for gods and goddesses and religious hymns with pontifices ?
> How can we sacrifice in public ? What sort of sacrifices ?
>
> Many questions to which I do not see logical answers. Can you light
> my mind and enjoy my heart about those problems ?
>
> Cura ut valeas.
>
> G Petronius Dexter
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53523 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: Welcome new Pontifices
Salve:

> I have participated in several public rituals (ceremonies) with
other
> Nova Romans. We may have citizens all over the world, and we may
> communicate with one another mainly through e-mail, but Nova Roma is
> not a "virtual community."

I understood that. But as I did not hear songs on the Agonalia day
and I did not see the Novaroman pontifices in Paris making public
ceremonies to honour Janus. ;o) I was wondering about the public
rituals and the infrastructure to built...

> As an augur I inaugurated Pontifex
> Metellus as a Pagan gathering in Ohio (USA) back in 2005. I've
> participated in religious ceremonies with Pontifex Metellus on more
> than one occasion as well as other Nova Romans.

I trust that you perform your duty and I would not dare have doubts
about your sincerity! I just had some questions and it is good to
have questions.

Do you know that I am from René Descartes' country?

Cura ut valeas.

G.Petronius Dexter
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53524 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi
Cato L. Iulio Regulo M. Hortensiae Maiori SPD

Salvete.

It is common to build Christian churches so that the congregation
faces East, as that is the direction from which Christ will supposedly
return at the end of the world. Of course, it also contains within
itself the idea of facing the rising sun signifying rebirth (under the
auspices of the Eucharistic Feast), Jesus as the "Sun of
Righteousness", and as a constant reminder of His Resurrection.
Before you say it, yes, these are ideas common among countless
religions. Christianity has taken that theme and revealed its
fulfillment in Christ.

There are several other possibilities as well. Romanesque and
medieval cathedrals often placed the most ornate and "important"
stained glass windows on the East side to gather as much light as
possible, focusing the congregation on the altar. Morning sunlight is
stronger than evening sunlight, so in a world "lit only by fire",
making use of the most natural light possible makes practical sense.

Many churches have different orientations, often based upon their
being built upon existing structures, like temples &c., so they simply
adopted the older foundations. St. Peter's Basilica in Rome itself
has the papal altar at the Western end.

Just as a reminder, that article is speculatory, and not the end of
scholastic thought regarding Mithraism. Just because I don't agree
with its conclusions does not mean I mindlessly, uneducatedly "believe
every word that escapes their [whoever they are] lips"; it simply
means that I do not think the author is correct. I linked to articles
written by intelligent thinkers who also disagree with it.

Marca Hortensia, of *course* I linked to Christian apologetics. I'm a
Christian. This should not be a huge surprise to you. I did not
think it necessary to put a warning in front of it.

Vale,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53525 From: cassius622@aol.com Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Lex De Imperio MMDCCLXI - The Comitia Curiata confers Imperium
Lex de Imperio

We, the Lictors of the Comita Curiata of Nova Roma, recognize and
accept the results of the elections in the Comitia Centuriata for
consules and praetores, and the election in the Comitia Populi
Tributa for aediles curules. By this lex de imperio we confer
imperium as defined in the lex Arminia Equitia de imperio upon these
magistrates.

Consules: Marcus Moravius Piscinus Horatianus, Titus Iulius Sabinus

Praetores: Marcus Curiatius Complutensis and Marcus Iulius Severus

Plebeian Aediles: Publius Constantinus Placidus and Flavius Galerius
Aurelianus

Curule Aediles: Publius Memmius Albucius and Sextus Lucilius

This lex de imperio shall become effective Kal. Ian. MMDCCLXI ‡
a.u.c. (2008 CE) and shall remain in effect until prid. Kal. Ian. ‡
MMDCCLXII a.u.c. (2009 CE).





**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53526 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: [NovaReligioRomana] Welcome new Pontifices
Cato Fl. Galerio Aureliano M. Moravio Piscino SPD

Salvete, pontiffs.

Felicitations on your co-optations to the College of Pontiffs. May
you serve the State well and honorably.

Optime valete,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53527 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Cato omnes SPD

Salvete.

I really hope that we're not going to get started on this "Jesus
didn't exist" thing again.

To quote one of our own religious officials, a fervent follower of the
religio Romana and one who has openly and publicly spoken of his
extreme distaste for the Christian faith, wrote:

"I confess I am astonished that anyone who is familiar with the
classical sources could conclude that he [Jesus] did not [exist]. The
Testimonium Flavianum is, certainly interpolated, but no competent
scholar of Josephus who has studied the manuscript evidence has ever
concluded that it is plain evidence for, at a bare minimum, the
historical evidence of Jesus of Nazareth. Whether he was "ho Xristos"
is not a historical question -- it is a matter for the most part for
the discourse of faith, not history ... -- but whether the man Jesus
existed is at least as well established as the existence of C. Iulius
Caesar or Augustus. The "Jesus myth" theory has never had a
significant following among mainstream historians because its
arguments involve methodologically unsound treatment of the
literary-historical manuscript traditions." - C. Iulius Scaurus (NR)

Valete,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53528 From: Maior Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Salvete;
Scaurus is an idiot; he thinks women in Nova Roma shouldn't have the
vote;-) At the same time polytheists exhibit a wide spectruum of
opinions. No one tells us how or what to think.

If citizens want to discuss the lack of historical evidence of a
person called Jesus then they will.
bene vale
Marca Hortensia Maior



>
> Cato omnes SPD
>
> >
> "I confess I am astonished that anyone who is familiar with the
> classical sources could conclude that he [Jesus] did not [exist].
The
> Testimonium Flavianum is, certainly interpolated, but no competent
> scholar of Josephus who has studied the manuscript evidence has
ever
> concluded that it is plain evidence for, at a bare minimum, the
> historical evidence of Jesus of Nazareth. Whether he was "ho
Xristos"
> is not a historical question -- it is a matter for the most part
for
> the discourse of faith, not history ... -- but whether the man
Jesus
> existed is at least as well established as the existence of C.
Iulius
> Caesar or Augustus. The "Jesus myth" theory has never had a
> significant following among mainstream historians because its
> arguments involve methodologically unsound treatment of the
> literary-historical manuscript traditions." - C. Iulius Scaurus
(NR)
>
> Valete,
>
> Cato
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53529 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Witnessing New Priesthood Appointments
Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus S.P.D.

I, Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus, as a Lictor of Nova Roma, hereby
witness the appointments of Fl. Galerius Aurelianus and Marcus
Moravius Piscinus as Pontifices of Nova Roma. As a member of the
Comitia Curiata I wish them good fortune in their offices and in their
work on behalf of the Religio Romana.

Valete:

Caeso Buteo
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53530 From: Charlie Collins Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: Witnessing New Priesthood Appointments
Quintus Servilius Priscus S.P.D.

I, Quintus Servilius Priscus, as a Lictor of Nova Roma, hereby witness
the appointments of Fl. Galerius Aurelianus and Marcus Moravius
Piscinus as Pontifices of Nova Roma. As a member of the Comitia
Curiata I wish them good fortune in their offices and in their work on
behalf of the Religio Romana.

Valete,
Quintus Servilius Priscus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53531 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Congratulations
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus S.P.D.

I would like to extend my congratulations to Consul-elect Marcus Moravius
Piscinus
and Senator Fl. Galerius Aurelianus on their appointment to the position of
Pontifex.

I fully believe that they will both serve Nova Roma well in these new
positions.


Congratulations

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Consul
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53532 From: marcushoratius Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: Welcome new Pontifices
M Moravius Piscinus Pontifici Maximo M. Cassio Juliano, Pontificibus,
Quiritibus SPD:

Magnas gratias vos ago.

Salvete meae Amicae et mi Amici

My humble thanks to the Pontifices for showing their faith in me. As
they know already, this is a very special honor for me to be able to
serve the Gods.

My thanks to all of you who sent congratulations. And I wish to join
with you in offering my own congratulations to Fl. Galerius
Aurelianus who has been my colleague as Flamines and will be now as
we become Pontifices, too.

Di Deaeque immortales vos bene ament.



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, cassius622@... wrote:
>
>
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> I would like to welcome Senator Fl. Galerius Aurelianus and Consul
Elect
> Marcus Moravius Piscinus as new Pontifices of Nova Roma!
>
> Both Aurelianus and Piscinus have been active in the Religio and
will be
> excellent additions to the Collegium Pontificum. I believe that as
Pontifices
> they will be of great help in getting more public religious
infrastructure
> built, and rituals done in the coming year.
>
> I hope all Citizens will join me in congratulating them both in
their new
> offices!
>
> Valete,
>
> Marcus Cassius Julianus
> Pontifex Maximus
>
>
>
>
> **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
> (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53533 From: marcushoratius Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: EIDAE DECEMBRAE
M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus Quiritibus et omnibus salutem
plurimam dicit: Deae Matres vos semper ament.

Hodie est Eidae Decembrae; haec dies nefastus principio est: Telluri
lecisternium Cereri in Carinis; Sementivae Telluris.

Today is the birthday of our Rogator Designatus Lucius Rutilius
Minervalis. Felices natalis! Di Deaeque omnes dent tibi quae velis

Speak no ill words today, good men and women, as we honor our friend
on his birthday. Burn frankincense, burn fragrant herbs from lands at
the very ends of the earth, even those sent from Arabia. His own
Genius comes to receive his honors, a holy wreath to crown his soft
crown of hair. This pure nard distilled for his temples and, sated
on wine and honey cakes, he gives his assent. And to you, Luci
Rutili, may everything you wish for be granted by the Gods. ~
Tibullus 2.2.1-9


To Tellus and Ceres

O Mothers of Fruitfulness, Tellus and Ceres, please,
With salted spelt cakes offered for Your mother's woe,
In kind service have Tellus and Ceres nurtured wheat,
She who gave grain life, She who gave us room to grow.

Pray then before the sheep are shorn their winter's fleece.

Consorts in labour who antiquity reformed,
Oaken acorn have You replaced by useful meal,
With boundless crops satisfy those who fields farmed,
O that they may by their tillage their reward seal.

May You grant tender seed abundant increase.

Let not icy cold enwrap our new shoots with snow,
While we sow let cloudless skies and fair winds blow.

When the seed lies sprouting, sprinkle with gentle rains,
May You ward off the feasting by birds from our grains.

You also, little ants, spare the grain we have sown,
More abundant will be your harvest when 'tis grown.
Meanwhile may our grain not blight by rough mildew,
Nor foul weather our seed blanch to a sickly hue.

Never may our grain be shriveled nor may it swell,
Without eye-stinging cockle, not by wild oats held.

Crops of wheat, of barley, of spelt grow on the farm,
Look now, Good Mothers, guard well the field,
The seasons change, the earth by Your breath grows warm,
With Your gentle touch may You increase our yield.

By Peace Ceres nursed, Her foster-child live in peace.

~ Ovid Fasti I.671-704


AUC 485 / 268 BCE: P. Sempronius Sophus dedicated a Temple to Tellus
in Carina.

On the Ides of December Rome held a lecisternium for Ceres carrying
an image of Her from Her temple on the Aventine to the temple of
Tellus in the district of Carina. An image of Tellus was likewise
drawn from Her temple. Both were placed side by side on a couch
before the doors of the aedes of Tellus, as though Ceres had come to
visit Her mother. In front of Their couch was set a table to
receive offerings. It was aat such rare lecisternia that the general
populace were allowed to approach the Goddesses in awe. There are
only three festivals known where Tellus and Ceres were offered
sacrifices together. Besides the Ides of December, the other
festivals were the Paganalia of late January and the Fordicia of
April. The lecisternium of Tellus and Ceres is found at Praeneste,
from which comes a sculpture showing the Goddesses side by side on a
litter. This rite, and the dedication of a temple for Tellus on this
date at Rome, may relate to an earlier rustic ritual of no fixed
date. This was the Sementivae Telluris. Special priests called
Semones, found in the Sabine territory and in certain Latin towns,
ritually sowed grain at this time of year to ensure an abundant
harvest for the community. In the same way that Pliny relates a
farmer sowing rabbia, the Semones probably said a prayer similar
to "Hoc farrem mihi vico sereo." "I sow this grain for me and for my
neighbors." (after Plinius Secundus, Hist. Nat. 24.116). It is
probable that at Praeneste the images of the Goddesses were carried
out to the fields for this ritual sowing. But by the time we hear of
it, at Rome, it had become a urban cultus


AUC 354 / 399 BCE The First Lectisternium

"Whether on account of the intemperate weather, or by the sudden
change from cold to heat, or by some other cause, the severe winter
was followed by a pestilence in summer, which proved fatal to men and
animals alike. As neither a cause nor a cure could be found for what
had come upon the city, the Senate ordered the Sibylline Books to be
consulted. The Duumviri priests who had charge of the oracles found
that a lectisternium should be performed for the first time in Rome.
For eight days Apollo and Latona, Diana and Hercules, Mercury and
Neptune were propitiated on three couches decked with the most
magnificent coverlets that could be obtained. Sacred celebrations
were also conducted in private houses. It is stated that throughout
the city the front gates of private houses were thrown open and
hospitality extended to all visitors, whether acquaintances or
strangers and men who had been enemies instead held friendly and
sociable conversations with each other and abstained from all
litigation. Even prisoners were allowed free during this period, and
it seemed afterwards as though an act of impiety that they should be
placed in chains once more." ~ Titus Livius 5.13.4-8


Our thought for today is from Epictetus' Enchiridion 47

"When you have learned to nourish your body frugally, do not pique
yourself upon it; nor, if you drink water, be saying upon every
occasion, 'I drink water.' But first consider how much more frugal
are the poor than we, and how much more patient of hardship. If at
any time you would inure yourself by exercise to labor and privation,
for your own sake and not for the public, do not attempt great feats;
but when you are violently thirsty, just rinse your mouth with water,
and tell nobody."
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53534 From: Patricia J. Washburn Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Passing of imperium to priesthoods
I, Patricia Cassia, as a Lictor of Nova Roma, hereby witness the
appointments of Fl. Galerius Aurelianus and Marcus Moravius Piscinus as
Pontifices of Nova Roma. As a member of the Comitia Curiata I wish them good
fortune in their offices and in their work on behalf of the Religio Romana.
May the Gods bless them in their work.

Patricia Cassia
Senatrix


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53535 From: Ice Hunter Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: YES on Lex Galeria de Cursu Honorum
Salve Modiane,

>The problem with your proposal is a programming one. The database is
>set-up in a certain way and to keep modifying it just creates more
>work for our already limited web team.

I've no desire to burden the team with more work--my personal preference would be to keep things as they are. My post was in response to Galerius Paulinus' question ast to what changes could be made the the proposed lex that would allow me to vote for it. My suggestions were only that--suggestions.

>Truth be told, the cursus
>honorum was more custom than doctrine. In our modern culture it seems
>"we" tend to think doctrinally and with absolutes rather than in
>custom and tradition.

I am not in favor of any doctrine, and have never once embraced an absolute. But not all customs were bad, or unwarranted. I would argue that the cursus honorum, however informally, served a purpose. Seasoning is a good thing.

Vale optime,
Artoria.


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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53536 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Jesus never Existed-What difference does it make?
Aurelianus Maior sal.

Faith is not based upon documentation. Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are
all based upon faith and arguing whether The Holy Trinity, Yahweh, and
Allah. Over four billion human beings believe in Them so any discourse upon the
subject of the reality of the historic Jesus, the revelation to Mohammad, or
any other such point is a strictly mental exercise.

Vale.



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53537 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2007-12-12
Subject: Re: Passing of imperium to priesthoods
Fl. Galerius Aurelianus S.P.D.

Thank you, Patricia Cassia. My thanks also to the other lictores of the
Comitia Curiata for investing Piscinus Pontifex and myself with the imperium.


I want to thank the Collegium Pontificum for their faith that I will be of
service to the restoration of the Religio. I would appreciate the support of
my fellow cultores deorum by contributing research and rituals to Nova Roma
since the restoration and reconstruction of the Religio Romana is the
foundation upon which our Respublica was build.

There is much already in the archives and files of the various lists of Nova
Roma, MTR, SVR, RR, ReconInterfaith, and other organizations that need to be
gleaned, organized, and made available to the cultores deorum and the Senate
and People of Nova Roma so we can help to strengthen the Pax Deorum. By
these good works, we will avert the anger of the Gods and assure Their favor in
the years to come for Nova Roma, our families, and ourselves.

The heart of the Religio Romana is to give the Gods the rites and offerings
that are due them within a traditional framework of ceremonies, feriae,
fasti, and celebrations as documented by the ancients. Many of these rites and
ceremonies are available today in books, scholarly journals, inscriptions, and
other sources that are available in many languages. It is the duty of Nova
Romans of all modern lands to contribute to our collective knowledge by
gathering that information, helping to translate from modern languages into Latin
and try to offer additional translations into other languages to assist in our
stated goals.

As our Pontifex Maximus has written, each priest or priestess of every
cultus has a responsibility to help bring Their worship and cult practices back
into the light for Nova Roma. As we enrich the Gods, so will they enrich us.

The Collegium Pontificum is already begun discussions about the feriae
conceptivae for next year together with the market days and other points that are
necessary to lay before the Consuls and Senate before the Kalends of
Ianuarius.

I hope that each of you who has written about how much they believe in the
reform of the Religio will now support active reconstruction and restoration
of the Religio. It is time to put down the banners, stop the rhetoric, and
get to work. Please feel free to post your research and reconstruction on the
ML and RR lists so that your fellow citizens know that there is work being
done. If this is done, no one will be able to say in six months, "I thought
that Flavius Galerius meant someone else would do it."

It is up to all of us now and in the future to maintain the Pax Deorum.




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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53538 From: Patrick D. Owen Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Caerimonia to Mars Invictus--Example to use for reconstruction
Fl. Galerius Aurelianus Pontifex S.P.D.

Here is an example of a caerimonia to Mars Invictus that was prepared
by the sacerdos Mars Invictus and the flamen Martialis. It is a good
sample of the traditional format and includes his references and
clear instructions on how to perform the rite.

If you want to contribute a caerimonia, this is a good model to work
with and improve upon for the reconstruction and restoration of the
Religio Romana.

Festival of Mars Invictus (May 14th)

In my capacity as Sacerdos of Mars Invictus, I hearby notify my
fellow cives that today, 14th of May, is the festival of Mars
Invictus. Included within the body of this posting is a transcript of
the proceedure of the rites for the ceremony (my thanks to Lucius
Equitius for sending me this last year).

Sacrificium Martii Invicti, pridie Idus Maias (May 14) The following
sacrifice is to be performed by the Sodalicium Militarium of Nova
Roma on the day of the festival of Mars Invictus. There should be at
least two officiants (including the sacrificer), but more than two is
advisable.

1 Sources

- ILS 5050 (CIL VI 32323) (Comentarii Ludi Saecularesof 17 BC in Rome)
- Comentarii Fratrum Arvalium qui supersunt
- Cato, De Agricultura, 83 (to Mars Silvanus) and 141(to Mars Pater).
- Vitruvius, De Architectura, 4.5.1 (on the orientation of temples).

2 Preparation

A main altar called ara is set up oriented towards East [Vitruvius,
4.5.1]. If that is not possible, then the altar should be set up in a
way as to be visible to those attending. Behind the altar (i.e. to
the East of the altar if the altar is oriented to East), a votive
statue of Mars can be placed higher than the altar in a way as to
face the sacrificers and the congregants behind them, who in turn
look to the image in reverence during the sacrifice. Fire is lit on
top of the altar.

A smaller fireplace or round shape, called foculus or focus is placed
to the right of the ara. This smaller fireplace is used during the
praefacio or introduction. The sacrifice consists of spelt, bacon
fat, some meat (possibly dry, for part of it will be consumed by the
officiants) and some wine. Each of these offerings is to be placed in
a separate vessel. Two incense pieces and two separate paterae of
wine shall also be available for the praefatio.

3 The Sacrifice

The officiants place themselves before the altar, looking towards the
deity. If there is an congregation, it will be placed in semi-circle
behind the officiants. The officiants should be wearing the toga
praetexta. One of the officiants orders the people to make silence
with the words "Favete linguis". If flute players are available, they
start to play at the sign of the sacrificer. During the ritual, the
Sacrificer can be helped by another officiant, who reads the words of
the ritual and whispers the words to him. The sacrificer covers his
head with the toga (which is called "capite velato" the toga
tied "Gabino cinctu"). The other officiants can optionally have their
heads covered as well.

3.1 Praefatio

The sacrifice starts with a praefatio, which opens the sacrifice with
offerings of wine and incense at the focus . I propose to follow the
usual practice of Cato, which is to offer incence and wine, first to
Ianus and then to Iuppiter. During the praefatio, the sacrificer is
turned in the direction of the focus or to the statue of Mars.


1) The sacrificer offers incense to Ianus as follows:

"Iano pater, te hoc ture commovenda bonas preces precor, uti sies
volens propitius populo romano."

"Father Ianus, in offering this incense to you I pray good prayers,
so that you may be willing to be propitious to the roman people."

The sacrificer places the incense on the focus.

2) Then incense is offered to Iuppiter in the same way:

"Iuppiter, te hoc ture commovenda bonas preces precor, uti sies
volens propitius populo romano."

"Iuppiter, in offering this incense to you I pray good prayers, so
that you may be willing to be propitious to the roman people."

The sacrificer places the incence on the focus.

3) Then a patera of wine is offered to Ianus:

"Iano pater, te hoc vino commovenda bonas preces precor, uti sies
volens propitius populo romano."

"Father Ianus, in offering this wine to you I pray good prayers, so
that you may be willing to be propitious to the roman people."

The sacrificer drops the wine on the focus.

4) Then the same for Iuppiter:

"Iuppiter, te hoc vino commovenda bonas preces precor, uti sies
volens propitius populo romano."

"Iuppiter, in offering this wine to you I pray good prayers, so that
you may be willing to be propitious to the roman people."

The sacrificer drops the wine on the focus.

3.2 Main sacrifice

Then, the main part of the sacrifice starts, which takes place at the
ara instead of the smaller focus.

1) The sacrificer washes his hands.

2) Turned in the direction of the altar or to the statue of Mars, he
speaks:

"Mars Invicte uti tibi in illeis libris scriptum est quarumque rerum
ergo quodque melius siet populo romano quiritibus tibi farre et lardo
et pulpa et vino sacrum fiat. Te quaeso precorque uti imperium
maiestatemque populi romani quiritium duelli domique auxis, utique
semper latinum nomen tueare. Incolumitatem sempiternam victoriam
valetudinem populo romano quiritibus tribuas faveasque populo romano
quiritibus legionibusque populi romani quiritium. Remque publicam
populi romani quiritium salvam serves. Uti sies volens propitius
populo romano quiritibus et Sodalicio Militarium et uti huius
sacrifici acceptor sies, farris, lardi, pulpa et vini propriarum
pollucendarum."

It can be translated more or less as:
"Mars Invictus, as it is written for you in the books, for sake of
these things and in order that any better may fall on the roman
people of the quirites, let a sacifice be made to you by the spelt,
bacon fat, meat and wine. I beg you and pray to you so that you may
help the empire and majesty of the roman people of the quirites both
in the war and at the homeland, and also that you may always watch
over the Latin name. May you provide to the roman people of the
quirites the eternal safety victory and good health and may you also
favour the roman people of the quirites as well as its legions. May
you preserve the public affairs ("res publica" = Republic) of the
roman people of the quirites unharmed. May you be willing to be
propitious to the roman people of the quirites and to the Sodalicium
Militarium and may you accept this sacrifice of spelt, bacon fat,
meat and wine proper to be offered."

3) Once the purpose of the sacrifice is stated, the items are
sacrificed. Other officiants should help the sacrificer by carrying
and providing him the vessels with the offerings, so that he may more
easily take them. The first item is spelt. The sacrificer takes a
fraction of the spelt and offers it to Mars Invictus as follows:

"Harum rerum ergo macte farre esto. Fito volente propitius populo
romano quiritibus et Sodalicio Militarium."

"For all these things therefore be honored by this spelt. Make
yourself willing to be propitious to the roman people of the quirites
and the Sodalicium Militarium."

The sacrificer places the spelt on the fire in order to be consumed
by the flames.

4) The sacrifice of bacon fat follows. It is similar to the above.
The sacrificer takes a fraction of bacon fat and sacrifices as
follows:

"Harum rerum ergo macte lardo esto. Fito volente propitius populo
romano quiritibus et Sodalicio Militarium."

"For all these things therefore be honored by this bacon fat. Make
yourself willing to be propitious to the roman people of the quirites
and the Sodalicium Militarium."

5) This is the sacifice of the meat. The sacrificer takes a fraction
of meat and sacrifices as follows:

"Harum rerum ergo macte pulpa esto. Fito volente propitius populo
romano quiritibus et Sodalicio Militarium."

"For all these things therefore be honored by this meat. Make
yourself willing to be propitious to the roman people of the quirites
and the Sodalicium Militarium."

6) This is the sacifice of the wine. The sacrificer takes a fraction
of the wine (using a cup or 'patera' if available) and sacrifices as
follows:

"Harum rerum ergo macte vino esto. Fito volente propitius populo
romano quiritibus et Sodalicio Militarium."

"For all these things therefore be honored by this wine. Make
yourself willing to be propitious to the roman people of the quirites
and the Sodalicium Militarium."

3.3 Profanatio

The profanation of the offerings follows.

1) The sacrificer symbolically touches the fraction of the offerings
that was not sacrificed to the God, so that it may be "profanated",
i.e. made "profane" or proper for human use. In this way, those
offerings cease to be "sacred", i.e. divine property.

8) Now the officiants eat the fraction of the meal that was not
offered to the deity, which ends the sacrifice.

9) Optionally, a part of the meal can be distributed to the audience
if there is enough.

10) A piaculum is usually offered to insure that any imperfections in
the caerimonia are expiated.

In honor of Mars Invictus, the guiding spirit of the legions who
brought the greatness of Rome! May he look favorably upon us all!

Illicet.

All May Depart.

Valete bene,

Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura
Sacerdos Mars Invictus

.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53539 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: In Defense of Women Pontifices
Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus S.P.D.

Here is an essay I wrote "In Defense of Women Pontifices." It is a
direct response to Gaius Iulius Scaurus (pontifex), who has advocated
against women pontifices in Nova Roma. It is enclosed in this e-mail,
and can also be found here:
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/In_Defense_of_Women_Pontifices_%28Nova_Roma%29

Valete:

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus

In Defense of Women Pontifices
By Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus

Introduction:

The argument below presented by Gaius Iulius Scaurus seems to be a
narrow analysis of the current dilemma within the sacra publica of
Nova Roma, and it is my hope that by illustrating his narrow view, as
well as close analysis of ancient Roman religious tradition in light
of our modern usage, the concept of women pontifices can be again
embraced by Nova Roma. The argument, by Gaius Iulius Scaurus, seems
to be a two-fold argument; the religious practices of Roma antiqua
being incompatible with modern sentiments of gender equality, and the
current practices of gender equality within Nova Roma itself. I hope
to address both of these concerns and show that women pontifices are a
potential reality again within Nova Roma and one that would not be
impietas prudens dolo malo.

--

Argument against women pontifices as presented by Gaius Iulius Scaurus:

I have made a comprehensive survey of the primary and secondary
literature on the question and am convinced that the adlection of
female pontifices will violate fundamental gender taboos of the
Religio and constitute an inexpiable impietas prudens dolo malo.
Women are absolutely forbidden to attend any caerimonia to Hercules
and the first caerimonia of the Neptunalia. The attendance of women at
any of these caerimoniae constitutes vitium and requires reperformance
of the caerimonia. Furthermore, at the caerimoniae of the mundus patet
the only women permitted to attend are the Virgines Vestales. However,
the attendance of the pontifices in the caerimoniae of Hercules, the
Neptunalia, and the mundus patet is mandatory. The adlection of female
pontifices would create a religious obligation to commit an impietas
prudens dolo malo, which is a patent absurdity.

I see no way to rationalize abandonment of this taboo on the grounds
of the hypothesized sexism of Roman society. We simply do not know why
the gender taboo existed any more than we know why there were no male
Vestals, and anyone who claims the ability to distinguish between
essential religious taboos and artifacts of sexual discrimination is
engaged in willful self-deception. We know that the Romans assiduously
respected these taboos and that these taboos were not generally
extended across the entire cultus, which militates for prudently
treating them as intrinsically important to the Religio and connected
to specific aspects of the cultus. At base our choice is either to
ignore the overwhelming evidence that these gender taboos were
rigorously respected in antiquity and are likely, therefore, to be
directly connected to the preferences of the Di Immortales or to
impose an interpretation grounded solely in a modern social-political
agenda which rejects the evidence and practice of antiquity. Following
the latter strategy seems to me to place us entirely outside the
enterprise of reconstruction and into the enterprise of creating a new
religion out of whole cloth. The suggestion that female pontifices
simply absent themselves from caerimoniae at which the attendance of
women is prohibited ignores the fact that pontifical attendance at
these caerimoniae was mandatory except in case of good cause, i.e.,
absence from the city or illness. Claiming that intentional
circumvention of a religious taboo and a cultic obligation for reasons
of modern personal preference is a good cause for such a practice
strikes me as rank, impious hypocrisy.

Frankly, earlier adlection of female pontifices in Nova Roma is so
grave a departure from the cultic practice of antiquity that our only
hope to undo the offence it represents is to simply throw ourselves on
the mercy of the Gods and plead abject ignorance for the affront. If
we knowingly go down this path again, we shall be making genuine
reconstruction of the Religio impossible. Why don't we just create
male sacerdotes of Bona Dea while we're at it?

--

Opening response to Gaius Iulius Scaurus and the case for gender equality:

In his argument against women pontifices, Scaurus makes the claim that
women were prohibited from participating in some specific cults, and
that these practices required the pontifices to participate. However,
he makes the claim that pontifices could excuse themselves from
participation for good cause. What better cause then gender equality?
What we know of gender disparity shows that there were cult practices
where women were the exclusive participants, yet if pontifices had
jurisdiction over ceremonial matters then it serves that they would
have influence over the rites of any state sponsored cultus. (Shelton.
Page 384 – 385) This jurisdiction is evident in the ruling of the
pontifices regarding Publius Clodius Pulcher and his unlawful
attendance at the rites of Bona Dea, where the pontifices ruled that
the rites had been polluted. (Staples 39) This jurisdiction seems to
transcend gender since the pontifices had cause to monitor the
orthopraxy of ritual practice, yet were denied access to the cult of
Bona Dea. In the sacerdotal culture of Nova Roma the proximity of
pontifices to the cultic practices of the sacerdotes is not always
guaranteed. Therefore, it seems only reasonable to assume that the
mandated participation, that Scaurus mentions, is a practice from
antiquity that will need modification in our modern global
environment. I have, for example, been a pontifex for a couple of
years now and I have never been to a "mandatory" caerimoniae to either
Hercules or Neptune. Furthermore, since the pontifices of antiquity
had jurisdiction over aspects of a female specific cult then logic
would dictate that women pontifices within Nova Roma would have
similar jurisdiction over male only cults. This jurisdiction,
however, need not always include proximity to the actual ceremonial
act, but deals with issues of orthopraxy.

On the status and role of women in Nova Roma:

At issue, as to whether women can or should be pontifices, is the
treatment of women in Nova Roma. Women are allowed, and encouraged,
to participate in all aspects of civic life. That was not the case
within Rome of antiquity, since women were typically under the patria
potestas of their father, husband, or male relative. (Arjava. Page
148) The patria potestas of the pater familias lasted as long as the
pater was alive, and even in cases when the pater familias died, and
those under his potestas became sui iuris (independent), the men under
the potestas were completely free, but women were required to have a
tutor or legal guardian. (Carp. 191) This is one major difference
between women in ancient Rome and women in Nova Roma, the idea of
emancipation and independence. In Nova Roma, via Lex Equitia
familiaris the ideal of gender equality is evident in subscribing
potestas irrespective of gender, respecting the concept of both pater
familias and mater familias along with allowing for male and female
tutores in the case of minores. This gender equality within Nova Roma
is important because it represents a profound deviation of the mos
maiorum in one sense, but also an evolution of that same mos maiorum
reflecting a continuity between ancient and contemporary mores. Our
contemporary usage of gender equality within our own family law is the
departure from ancient practice that radically changes the role of
women.

In ancient Rome a woman could belong to one of three different
categories; "Women who did not qualify as either matronae or virgins
were effectively non-members of the Roman state and of its cult,
banned, with a few specific exceptions, from participating (except
perhaps as spectators along a parade route) in many of Rome's most
central religious rites." (Wildfang page 53). Furthermore, a matrona
and a virgo can be defined with the following definition, "To be a
matrona, a woman had to be the respectable wife or widow of a Roman
citizen. To be a virgo, a woman had to be the morally pure,
respectable, sexually intact (as we define the English word virgin)
marriageable daughter of a Roman citizen." (Wildfang page 53) In Nova
Roma this classification of women does not apply, and as an example
I'll use a former vestal to illustrate my point. Lucia Modia Lupa was
appointed a Vestal by Collegium Pontificum decretum dated ante diem
XIII Kal. FEBRVARIAS MMDCCLVIII a.u.c. (20 January 2005). At the time
of her appointment she was still under my patria potestas, but was
emancipated by me a day later (21 January 2005). Lucia Modia Lupa was
neither a matrona or a virgo, being unmarried and having a daughter.
It would, in my opinion, be against the ancient Roman mos maiorum to
have a women who was anything other than a virgo selected to become a
vestal; yet such an appointment did occur in Nova Roma because the
requirement of being either a matrona or virgo is an antiquated
practice that does not apply in the gender egalitarian environment
that prevails in Nova Roma. This departure from antiquity is a radical
departure when compared to the mores of the past, however, they seem
less radical when contrasted against the mores of our contemporary
"macronational" culture and the established mores within Nova Roma
itself. In fact, the initial establishment of the Nova Roma
Constitution of MMDCCLII states, "When determining applicability for
Citizenship, Nova Roma shall not discriminate on the basis of race,
gender, age (except where such is mandated by the civil laws of a
particular locality), or sexuality.," and the current version of the
Nova Roma Constitution reads, "Citizenship is open to anyone
regardless of ethnic heritage, gender, religious affiliation, or
sexual orientation." Therefore, the distinction of matrona or virgo
does not apply to the status of women in Nova Roma.

What I have shown thus far is that the status of women is different in
Nova Roma than what it was in ancient Rome, and that this difference
is a departure from the mos maiorum of antiquity, but is very much a
part of the customs and traditions (i.e., mores) of Nova Roma. Since
women are not discriminated against based upon their gender, with
respect to citizenship within Nova Roma, it is also true that this
citizenship also allows women to engage in the electoral process as
legislated for in Lex Vedia de cursu honorum, which allows for any
citizen to run for political office after six months of citizenship.
Another important aspect of the mores of Nova Roma is the Lex Popillia
senatoria (and subsequent leges of a similar nature), which allows
adlection into the senate of any citizen who has served as a
magistrate or who has otherwise demonstrated exceptionally good
character. The criteria is citizenship in both cases (viz., election
in comitia as a magistrate, and being adlected into the senate), and
is irrespective of gender. What is especially important is the
senatorial rank, which is gender blind, in that it is based upon merit
alone and ignores potential impediments based upon gender. There is
an important passage from Scheid regarding the correlation between
senator rank and the priesthood, "Under the Republic, not all the
priests in the major colleges had been of senatorial rank. By the end
of that period all major priests were senators and rather less than
half were patricians." (Scheid 143) Senators clearly had religious
authority, (Warrior 42) and as I noted above many who occupied the
major priesthoods were of senatorial rank. It seems safe to make the
assertion that if women are allowed into the senate then they should
be allowed to occupy important priesthoods, namely, pontifex and
augur. To deny a female senator as pontifex or augur seems an affront
to the rank of senator itself, "since the priestly colleges consisted
mostly of senatorialcs, their advice should be considered as that
given by a permanent committee of the senate." (Szemler 106)
Therefore, it would seem impietas prudens dolo malo to deny a woman
the priesthood of pontifex or augur simply on the grounds of her
gender if she were a senator. Furthermore, if pontifex or augur can
be bestowed upon a woman of senatorial rank then it seems feasible to
entertain the notion that it could be bestowed upon a woman outside of
the senate if she was given the same non-gender related criteria that
men enjoy.

On Change in the Sacra Publica:

Scaurus makes an argument that the gender disparity is a preference of
the Gods: "At base our choice is either to ignore the overwhelming
evidence that these gender taboos were rigorously respected in
antiquity and are likely, therefore, to be directly connected to the
preferences of the Di Immortales or to impose an interpretation
grounded solely in a modern social-political agenda which rejects the
evidence and practice of antiquity." This can be addressed by looking
at the development of the sacra publica as circumstances changed.
With each major transformation of Rome came change in the way the
sacra publica operated. This change in the management of the pax
deorum can be seen in this selection from Liebeschuetz, "Moreover the
procedure for dealing with portents was intimately linked with the
republican system of government and the management by the senate of
sovereign popular assemblies. When that system collapsed, traditional
ways of maintaining the pax deorum lost a principle reason for
existence." (Liebeschuetz 58) For example, the priesthood of the Rex
Sacrorum was established when the monarchy was abolished, (Dowden page
18) and was a result of the Romans finding a solution to the
disestablishment of the office of rex who had ceremonial obligations.
Another example of the Romans dealing with change is the struggle
between patricians and plebeians, and the passing of Lex Ogulnia in
300 BCE removing the patrician monopoly over the Collegium Pontificum
and the Collegium Augurum. (Taylor 386) Most priesthoods were
originally reserved for patricians alone, but were eventually opened
up to include members of the plebeian order. Some priesthoods
remained closed to plebeians, but these were highly ritualized
priesthoods (i.e., the major Flamen, and Rex Sacrorum), while the more
politicized priesthoods (priesthoods of pontifex and augur for
example) were opened up to plebeians. Would it have been considered
impietas prudens dolo malo at one time in the history of Rome to
suggest that plebeians, for example, be admitted as pontifices or
augures? Patricians and plebeian classes where established, according
to tradition, by Romulus himself with patricians as priests and
magistrates, and the plebeians to do the other, often necessary,
tasks. (Watson. 100) If it is acceptable to open up various
priesthoods to plebeians then it seems reasonable to open up the same
priesthoods to gender, especially those priesthoods that were not
exclusively linked to gender (i.e., Vestals) and which have a certain
political quality to them (viz., pontifex and augur). This seems
especially true since the establishment of the classes is attributed
to Romulus himself. Certainly, the idea of plebeian magistrates and
pontifices would not have been acceptable, for example, in the time of
Numa Popilius, but later in the evolution of Rome the idea became more
palatable, just like our current practice of women magistrates and
senatores would have been unheard of during the Republic and
afterwards, but is now an acceptable practice.

It could be argued for example that, "The departure from the mos
maiorum in permitting Plebeian pontifices altered the human component
of the mos, not that which was demanded by the Di Immortales." If
this objection to women pontifices is based exclusively on the
assumption that plebeian pontifices represent a human component while
women pontifices represents some sort of divinely mandated
prohibition, then it should also be the case that women should be
excluded from all political offices and especially from the senate.
This prohibition is based on the special character of magistrates and
senatores. However, as I have shown above, the mores Nova Roma, while
linked with the mos maiorum of antiquity, is much different from its
counterpart in antiquity. Additionally, change was periodically
introduced into the sacra publica by the senate and various priestly
colleges. The sacra publica was and is, by its nature, inclusive and
highly adaptable with one special caveat, "These new additions were
only thought legitimate when they received official acceptance by the
ruling elite." (Takacs 302) New cults established, such as the cult
of Magna Mater, old cults re-activated (such as the Arval Brethren
under Augustus), and other additions, changes, and adaptations to the
sacra publica were possible, but only through the collegial character
of the collegium pontificum, senate, etc. The objection that some
departures from the mos maiorum involve only a human component while
other departures would be a direct violation of the Di Immortales
would imply that the Di Immortales presented some form of direct
communication with someone from Roman antiquity. I am unaware of any
"golden tablets," or codified texts similar to the Bible of the
Judeo-Christian faiths, or to the Quran of Islam. However, religious
change has been possible within ancient Rome. An early example of
change are the reforms of Numa Popilius, when "He established laws and
customs among the Romans, who, because of their frequent hostilities,
were until that point regarded as semibarbaric latrones. Furthermore,
he divided the previously unregulated years into ten months (sic) and
founded numerous sacred rites and temples at Rome." (Bird 243) Would
the Romans of Numa's time consider his reforms a violation of the mos
maiorum, or as much needed reforms to move Rome forward? History
portrays Numa Popilius in a very positive manner, so it would seem
that his reforms benefited Rome. Additionally, great power over the
sacra publica rested within the "ruling elite." The senate, during
the Empire, had the power of deification; "The deification of a
deceased emperor was authorized by a formal decree of the senate,
which alone had power to introduce new forms of worship." (Burton 84)
Therefore, the idea of change and adaption was prevalent within the
sacra publica and permitted if done by the "ruling elite" according to
law, such practices seem synonymous with the Roman system of change.
Claiming some departures are acceptable and others are not, based on
the assumption that some are divinely mandated, seems more appropriate
to revealed religious traditions (such as Judaism, Christianity, or
Islam) rather than the sacra publica of Nova Roma. Of course it could
be argued that augury is a form of revelation, but if that is the case
then augury could ideally solve all of our problems, and the reliance
upon augury for this opens up a series of potential abuse by augures.

On the Nature of the Roman Priesthood:

Something to consider regarding the various priesthoods of Rome,
ancient or otherwise, is the nature of the priesthood. The priesthood
of Christianity (for example, those of Roman Catholicism or Eastern
Orthodoxy) is a sacramental priesthood believed to change the very
essential character of the individual upon ordination as a priest,
resulting in a special character upon the soul of the new priest.
Likewise, the Aaronic priesthood of Jewish tradition was a hereditary
priesthood passed from father to son. The priesthoods of ancient Rome
were different; "Its religious officials were merely political
functionaries of state like any other." (Merrill 200) The religious
character of the priesthood was linked with that of the state, and
priests functioned on behalf of the state. Since Nova Roma makes no
distinction of citizenship with regard to gender, as I have shown, and
since the priesthood is a function of state then the priesthood should
be open to citizens regardless of their gender.

On the Nature of Vitium:

In his critique of women pontifices Scaurus wrote, "The attendance of
women at any of these caerimoniae constitutes vitium and requires
reperformance of the caerimonia." The use of the term vitium in the
sense that it is used by Scaurus is an incorrect use of the term
vitium. It does happen to be a Latin word for blemish, defect, or
fault. However, it has a more specific meaning within the confines of
the sacra publica. The word vitium has specific meaning in augurial
law; "As a religious term, it definitely belongs to the language of
augury alone." (Paschall 220) It would seem that Scaurus has used the
term vitium is an incorrectly. His example of women at a caerimoniae
reserved exclusively for men is similar to the case of Publius Clodius
Pulcher who secretly attended the rites of Bona Dea, but was
discovered. The pontifices declared that the actions of Clodius were
nefas, (Strachan-Davidson 221) but no mention of it being a vitium.
As I've shown above the pontifices ruled that the presence of Clodius
required the rituals to be performed again. In this case Scaurus
seems correct that a ritual exclusively aligned to men, with women
present, should be conducted over – just a ritual reserved for women
had to conducted over after being polluted by a man. However, his
argument against women as pontifices rests on his assertion that
pontifices where and are required to attend the rites of Hercules.
Since the cults of Hercules and Bona Dea were linked in their
exclusivity of gender, (Staples 25) it seems reasonable that if there
was ever a time in Nova Roma where attendance was mandated upon our
pontifices that men would attend the rites of Hercules, and women the
rites of Bona Dea. Even if this was the case it would still be
appropriate for women pontifices to guard the orthopraxy of the
Herculean cult just as it was for the male pontifices of antiquity to
guard the orthopraxy of the rites of Bona Dea.

Response to the claim of impious hypocrisy:

The final argument by Scaurus that I wish to address is, "Claiming
that intentional circumvention of a religious taboo and a cultic
obligation for reasons of modern personal preference is a good cause
for such a practice strikes me as rank, impious hypocrisy." It would
seem that our current customs regarding women, as I have illustrated
above, are a direct result of "modern personal preference," does that
make everyone in Nova Roma who supports women as magistrates and
senatores guilty of impious hypocrisy? Does adapting practices to
changing mores make someone guilty of impious hypocrisy? The
increased privilege afforded to the plebeian class was certainly a
result of changing times within ancient Rome and therefore a "modern
preference" of that time, just like gender equality if a preference in
our contemporary time. Furthermore, it is reasonable to assume
"modern personal preference" in many instances where ancient custom
and taboos are impractical, impossible, or simply an impediment to an
effective reconstruction of the sacra publica. There is no reason for
Nova Roma to become a slave to one persons idea of the mos maiorum in
such a way that our efforts to reconstruct Roman religion are retarded
because of a false sense of piety, or fear of impietas prudens dolo
malo. There are many practices within Nova Roma that are a departure
from antiquity, it is irresponsible to, for example, allow vestals
without proof of virginity but deny women the opportunity to serve as
pontifices or augures. Likewise, it is irresponsible to allow
unmarried men to assume the role of flamen maiores and deny women the
opportunity to serve as pontifices or augures.

Conclusion:

In conclusion, I believe I have shown the possibility of women as
pontifices, and therefore refuted the claims of Scaurus to the
contrary, including his assertion that women as pontifices is impietas
prudens dolo malo. Additionally, it seems reasonable that if the
ancient Romans worked through problems as they transitioned from one
system to another that we too in our society of Nova Roma also have
the ability to work through our own problems without being "entirely
outside the enterprise of reconstruction" as Scaurus claims. It seems
important and meritorious to be aware of taboos and differences
between Roma antique and our modern Nova Roma, but to work through
these taboos and problems as the Romans have always done – without the
fear of accusations of impious hypocrisy, blasphemy, and impietas
prudens dolo malo.

References:

Arjava, Antti . "Paternal Power in Late Antiquity." The Journal of
Roman Studies 88 (1998): 147-65.

Bird, H W. "Eutropius on Numa Pompilius and the Senate." The Classical
Journal 81.3 (1986): 243-48.

Burton, Henry F. "The Worship of the Roman Emperors." The Biblical
World 40.2 (1912): 80-91.

Carp, Teresa. "Two matrons of the late republic." Women's Studies 8
(1981): 189-200.

Dowden, Ken "Religion and the Romans." Bristol Classical Press:
London 1992. Page 19.

Liebeschuetz, J. H. W. G. "Continuity and Change in Roman Religion."
Oxford At the Claredon Press: Oxford 1979.

Merrill, Elmer T. "The Attitude of Ancient Rome toward Religion and
Religious Cults." The Classical Journal 15.4 (1920): 196-215.

Paschall, Dorothy. "The Origin and Semantic Development of Latin
Vitium." Transactions and Proceedings of the American Philological
Association 67 (1936): 219-31.

Scheid, John. "An Introduction to Roman Religion." Indiana
University Press: Bloomington & Indianapolis 2003.

Shelton, Jo-Ann. "As the Romans Did: A Sourcebook in Roman Social
History," Second Edition. Oxford University Press: New York 1998.
Page 384 – 385.

Szemler, George J. "Religio, Priesthoods and Magistracies in the Roman
Republic." Numen 18.2 (1971): 103-31.

Staples, Ariadne. From Good Goddess to Vestal Virgins: Sex and
category in Roman religion. London: Routledge, 1998.

Strachan-Davidson, J L. "Mommsen's Roman Criminal Law." The English
Historical Review 16.62 (1901): 219-91.

Takács, Sarolta A. "Politics and Religion in the Bacchanalian Affair
of 186 B.C.E." Harvard Studies in Classical Philology 100 (2000):
301-10.

Taylor, Lily R. "Caesar's Colleagues in the Pontifical College." The
American Journal of Philology 63.4 (1942): 385-412.

Warrior, Valerie M. "Roman Religion." Cambridge University Press:
New York 2006.

Watson, Alan. "Roman Private Law and the Leges Regiae." The Journal of
Roman Studies 62 (1972): 100-05.

Wildfang, Robin L. Rome's Vestal Virgins: A Study of Rome's Vestal
priestesses in the late Republic and early Empire. London: Routledge,
2006.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53540 From: Patrick D. Owen Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: My first caerimonia
F. Galerius Aurelianus Pontifex S.P.D.

This is the first caerimonia that I ever prepared and performed in
public on behalf of the Senate and People of Nova Roma that Iuppiter
Dapalis and Venus Erycina will be favorably disposed towards the
Senate and People and grant them productive vinyards and full cellars
for the coming year.

[Rubrics: *Adoratio ^Right Hand to Heart]

Caerimonia of the Vinalia Prioria

I bathed in preparation, then, garbed in toga virilis, cinctu Gabino,
capite velato, I began the praefatio.

Praefatio

"Iane pater*, te hoc ture ommovendo bonas preces precor, uti sies
volens propitius mihi^ et Senatui Populoque Novaromanorum Quiritum
[Father Ianus, by offering this incense to you I pray good prayers, so
that you may be willingly propitious to me and the Senate and People
of the Novaromans, the Quirites]." I placed incense in the focus of
the altar.

"Iuno Regina*, te hoc ture ommovendo bonas preces precor, uti sies
volens propitia mihi^ et Senatui Populoque Novaromanorum Quiritum
[Queen Iuno, by offering this incense to you I pray good prayers, so
that you may be willingly propitious to me and the Senate and People
of the Novaromans, the Quirites]." I placed incense in the focus of
the altar.

"Minerva Dea*, te hoc ture ommovendo bonas preces precor, uti sies
volens propitia mihi^ et Senatui Populoque Novaromanorum Quiritum
[Goddess Minerva, by offering this incense to you I pray good prayers,
so that you may be willingly propitious to me and the Senate and
People of the Novaromans, the Quirites]." I placed incense in the
focus of the altar.

"Mars pater*, te hoc ture ommovendo bonas preces precor, uti sies
volens propitius mihi^ et Senatui Populoque Novaromanorum Quiritum
[Father Mars, by offering this incense to you I pray good prayers, so
that you may be willingly propitious to me and the Senate and People
of the Novaromans, the Quirites]." I placed incense in the focus of
the altar.

"Quirine pater*, te hoc ture ommovendo bonas preces precor, uti sies
volens propitius mihi^ et Senatui Populoque Novaromanorum Quiritum
[Father Quirinus, by offering this incense to you I pray good prayers,
so that you may be willingly propitious to me and the Senate and
People of the Novaromans, the Quirites]." I placed incense in the
focus of the altar.

"Iane pater*, uti te ture ommovendo bonas preces bene precatus sum,
eiusdem rei ergo macte vino inferio esto [Father Ianus, as by offering
to you the incense virtuous prayers were well prayed, for the sake of
this be honoured by this humble wine.]" I poured a libation on the
focus of the altar.

"Iuno Regina*, uti te ture ommovendo bonas preces bene precatus sum,
eiusdem rei ergo macte vino inferio esto [Queen Iuno, as by offering
to you the incense virtuous prayers were well prayed, for the sake of
this be honoured by this humble wine.]" I poured a libation on the
focus of the altar.

"Minerva Dea*, uti te ture ommovendo bonas preces bene precatus sum,
eiusdem rei ergo macte vino inferio esto [Goddess Minerva, as by
offering to you the incense virtuous prayers were well prayed, for the
sake of this be honoured by this humble wine.]" I poured a libation
on the focus of the altar.

"Mars pater*, uti te ture ommovendo bonas preces bene precatus sum,
eiusdem rei ergo macte vino inferio esto [Father Mars, as by offering
to you the incense virtuous prayers were well prayed, for the sake of
this be honoured by this humble wine.]" I poured a libation on the
focus of the altar.

"Quirine pater*, uti te ture ommovendo bonas preces bene precatus sum,
eiusdem rei ergo macte vino inferio esto [Father Quirinus, as by
offering to you the incense virtuous prayers were well prayed, for the
sake of this be honoured by this humble wine.]" I poured a libation
on the focus of the altar.

I washed my hands in preparation for the praecatio.

Precatio

"Iuppiter Dapalis*, Rex Deorum hominumque, quod tibi fieri oportet in
die Vinaliae culullum vini, ergo macte hac pollucenda esto."
["Iuppiter of the Sacrifices, King of Gods and men, because it is
proper of Vinalia's day to offer you a cup of wine, therefore be
honoured by this feast offering.]" I poured a libation on the focus
of the altar.

"Venus Erycina*, quod tibi fieri oportet in die Vinaliae culullum
vini, ergo macte hac pollucenda esto. [Venus of Eryx, because it is
proper of Vinalia's day to offer you a cup of wine, therefore be
honoured by this feast offering.]" I poured a libation on the focus
of the altar.

"Venus Erycina*, quod tibi fieri oportet in die Vinaliae incensum,
ergo macte hac pollucenda esto." ["Venus of Eryx, because it is proper
of Vinalia's day to offer incense to you, therefore be honoured by
this feast offering.]" I placed incense of frankincense and mint on
the focus of the altar.

I washed my hand in preparation for the praecatio.

Redditio

"Iuppiter Dapalis*, Rex Deorum hominumque, macte istace dape
pollucenda esto, macte vino interio esto." [Iuppiter of the
Sacrifices, King of Gods and men, may you be honoured by this feast
offering, may you be honoured by the humble wine.]" I placed cakes and
wine on the focus of the altar.

"Venus Erycina*, macte istace dape pollucenda esto, macte vino inferio
esto." [Venus of Eryx, may you be honoured by this feast offering, may
you be honoured by the humble wine.]" I placed cakes and wine on the
focus of the altar.

"Quirine pater*, uti te ture ommovendo bonas preces bene precatus sum,
eiusdem rei ergo macte vino inferio esto [Father Quirinus, as by
offering to you the incense virtuous prayers were well prayed, for the
sake of this be honoured by this humble wine.]" I poured a libation on
the focus of the altar.

"Mars pater*, uti te ture ommovendo bonas preces bene precatus sum,
eiusdem rei ergo macte vino inferio esto [Father Mars, as by offering
to you the incense virtuous prayers were well prayed, for the sake of
this be honoured by this humble wine.]" I poured a libation on the
focus of the altar.

"Minerva Dea*, uti te ture ommovendo bonas preces bene precatus sum,
eiusdem rei ergo macte vino inferio esto [Goddess Minerva, as by
offering to you the incense virtuous prayers were well prayed, for the
sake of this be honoured by this humble wine.]" I poured a libation
on the focus of the altar.

"Iuno Regina*, uti te ture ommovendo bonas preces bene precatus sum,
eiusdem rei ergo macte vino inferio esto [Queen Iuno, as by offering
to you the incense virtuous prayers were well prayed, for the sake of
this be honoured by this humble wine.]" I poured a libation on the
focus of the altar.

"Iane pater*, uti te ture ommovendo bonas preces bene precatus sum,
eiusdem rei ergo macte vino inferio esto [Father Ianus, as by offering
to you the incense virtuous prayers were well prayed, for the sake of
this be honoured by this humble wine.]" I poured a libation on the
focus of the altar.

"Vesta Dea*, custos ignis sacri, macte vino inferio esto [Goddess
Vesta, guardian of the sacred fire, be honoured by this humble wine.]"
I poured a libation on the focus of the altar.

"Ita vultis, ita est!" ["As You will, so it is!"]

Profantio

I profaned wine and cakes, and I partook of the epulum with Iuppiter
Dapalis and Venus Erycina, praying as I ate and offering libations in
my private devotions. The plate of libum and cup of wine was passed to
the attendees.

Piaculum

[Since the historical caerimonia of the Vinalia Prioria has not yet
been recovered, I offer a piaculum to Iuppiter Dapalis and Venus
Erycina if anything in this caerimonia should offend them and I make
offering as atonement.]

"Iuppiter Dapalis*, Venus Erycina*, si quidquam tibi in hac caerimonia
displicet, hoc vino inferio veniam peto et vitium meum expio."
[Iuppiter of the Sacrifices, Venus of Eryx, if anything in this
ceremony is displeasing to you, with this humble wine I ask
forgiveness and expiate my fault.]" I poured a libation on the focus
of the altar.

"Illicet [It is permitted to go.]"


SPECIAL NOTE: While I do not have any special affiliation with the
Cults of Iuppiter & Venus, apart from the normal Roman ones, I offer
this caerimonia because it was the first Religio Romana rite I ever
offered in public. This caerimonia was performed on April 23, 2004
at the Pagan Unity Festival in Burns, Tennessee before approximately
100 persons. I was assisted by Violentilla Galeria Saltarix who
performed a sacred dance and by another citizen as Camillus.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53541 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: My first caerimonia
Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus Fl. Galerio Aureliano salutem dicit

The caerimonia that I use as Flamen Pomonalis can be found here:

http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Ritus_Pomonae

Vale:

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus

2007/12/13 Patrick D. Owen <Patrick.Owen@...>:
>
>
> F. Galerius Aurelianus Pontifex S.P.D.
>
> This is the first caerimonia that I ever prepared and performed in
> public on behalf of the Senate and People of Nova Roma that Iuppiter
> Dapalis and Venus Erycina will be favorably disposed towards the
> Senate and People and grant them productive vinyards and full cellars
> for the coming year.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53542 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: Welcome new Pontifices
Salvete omnes,

My sincere congratulations to pontifices Galerius Aurelianus and
Moravius Piscinus. Both represent the very best and finest in virtue.
May they serve long and well to bring the Quirites closer to the Dii
Immortales.

Valete,

CN-EQVIT-MARINVS

cassius622@... writes:

>
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> I would like to welcome Senator Fl. Galerius Aurelianus and Consul Elect
> Marcus Moravius Piscinus as new Pontifices of Nova Roma!
>
> Both Aurelianus and Piscinus have been active in the Religio and will be
> excellent additions to the Collegium Pontificum. I believe that as Pontifices
> they will be of great help in getting more public religious infrastructure
> built, and rituals done in the coming year.
>
> I hope all Citizens will join me in congratulating them both in their new
> offices!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53543 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Witnessing the New Priesthoods
I Gnaeus Equitius Marinus as a Lictor of Nova Roma, hereby witness the
appointments of Fl. Galerius Aurelianus and Marcus Moravius
Piscinus as Pontifices of Nova Roma. As a member of the Comitia
Curiata I wish them good fortune in their offices and in their work
on behalf of the Religio Romana.


CN-EQVIT-MARINVS

----------


Salvete,

It seems a Lictore's work is never done. ;)

As Pontifex Maximus I convene the Comitia Curiata to witness and welcome Fl.
Galerius Aurelianus and Marcus Moravius Piscinus as Pontifices in the
Collegium Pontificum of Nova Roma.

This is a little different from conferring Imperium... it is your chance as
Lictores to speak out on the lists on behalf of the Comitia Curiata. Lictores
are requested to post a short text to the main list publicly witnessing the
new priesthood positions.

Here is a sample text below:

***********************

I ________________ as a Lictor of Nova Roma, hereby witness the appointments
of Fl. Galerius Aurelianus and Marcus Moravius Piscinus as Pontifices of
Nova Roma. As a member of the Comitia Curiata I wish them good fortune in
their offices and in their work on behalf of the Religio Romana.

**************************

The above or any similar public post to the main list (and the Religio
Romana list) will be much appreciated.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus





**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53544 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: Lex De Imperio MMDCCLXI - The Comitia Curiata confers Imperium
Salvete omnes,

*This* lictor of the Comitia Curiata most definitely did not vote to
confer imperium to plebeian aediles. I wrote to the PM privately
about the error he made by including the plebeian aediles and then I
raised the point within the Comitia Curiata. Since the PM has seen
fit to now publish this incorrect statement which most definitely is
NOT in keeping with the Lex Arminia Equitia de Imperio, I feel
compelled to issue this public repudiation of the Pontifex Maximus'
statement.

I do confirm the imperium of the consules, praetores, and aediles
curules elect, all of whom are constitutionally entitled to the
imperium.

Valete,

CN-EQVIT-MARINVS

cassius622@... writes:

> Lex de Imperio
>
> We, the Lictors of the Comita Curiata of Nova Roma, recognize and
> accept the results of the elections in the Comitia Centuriata for
> consules and praetores, and the election in the Comitia Populi
> Tributa for aediles curules. By this lex de imperio we confer
> imperium as defined in the lex Arminia Equitia de imperio upon these
> magistrates.
>
> Consules: Marcus Moravius Piscinus Horatianus, Titus Iulius Sabinus
>
> Praetores: Marcus Curiatius Complutensis and Marcus Iulius Severus
>
> Plebeian Aediles: Publius Constantinus Placidus and Flavius Galerius
> Aurelianus
>
> Curule Aediles: Publius Memmius Albucius and Sextus Lucilius
>
> This lex de imperio shall become effective Kal. Ian. MMDCCLXI ‡
> a.u.c. (2008 CE) and shall remain in effect until prid. Kal. Ian. ‡
> MMDCCLXII a.u.c. (2009 CE).
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53545 From: Titus Flavius Aquila Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Congratulations to the new pontifices
Titus Flavius Aquila salutem plurimam dicit

I would like to congratulate the new pontifices Marcus Moravius Piscinus and
Flavius Galerius Aurelianus on their appointment.

May the eternal Gods shine upon them and Nova Roma !

Vale optime
Titus Flavius Aquila
Tribunus Plebis

Scriba Censoris KFBM
Nova Roma


__________________________________ Ihr erstes Baby? Holen Sie sich Tipps von anderen Eltern. www.yahoo.de/clever

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53546 From: marius.lupus Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: Daily rituals in latin
Salve Maior,

thank you for the link you sent me: this is what I was looking for.
Ave atque vale.

Lupus



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> Maior Lupo Neroque sal;
> Nero, why not ask the Sodalitas Latinitas to help you
> translate them into Latin?
>
> Also Lupe, here is a link to M. Moravius Piscinus' web page with
> prayers in Latin.
> http://www.societasviaromana.net/Collegium_Religionis/lararium.php
> bene valete
> Maior
> >
> > Salve Mari Lupe,
> >
> > The daily rituals are not available in Latin at this time. As
the
> > author of them, I'm afraid to say that I am not well versed in
> > Latin, but if anyone would kindly take up the task of making a
> > translation into Latin, myself among other Cultores I'm sure
would
> > be quite thankful.
> >
> > Once a translation is made, I will see to it that the Latin
> version
> > is made available on the NR Wiki site. :-)
> >
> > Vale optime,
> > Titus Iulius Nero
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "marius.lupus" <mariobasile@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > C.Marius Lupus omnes salutat.
> > >
> > > Dear all,
> > > I have looked for the daily rituals in the web page
> > > http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Daily_Rituals_%28Nova_Roma%29
> > >
> > > The ritual is in English, but the primary source is reported:
> > > is there available a latin version of the daily ritual?
> > >
> > > Valete omnes
> > >
> > > C.Marius Lupus
> > >
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53547 From: Titus Flavius Aquila Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: AW: [Nova-Roma] Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Salvete Quirites,

I agree that their might have been a person called Jesus, a jew born either in Betlehem or Nazaret who might have had a strong
charisma. During these days there were several religious teachers in Judea and they were all teaching their spirits.

The Jews had waited for a very long time for the arrival of their king and a person with strong charisma obviusly would have attracted
them.

If you believe the tales that Jesus was walking above the water, the water ,wine and bread issues (famous aphorisms), waking up the
people from the dead, it is straight up to you.

Vale optime
Titus Flavius Aquila

----- Ursprüngliche Mail ----
Von: A. Tullia Scholastica <fororom@...>
An: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Gesendet: Mittwoch, den 12. Dezember 2007, 23:53:13 Uhr
Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed

> A. Tullia Scholastica L. Quirino quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque bonae
> voluntatis S.P.D.
>
>
>
> Salvete Omnes
>
> there is no ancient text of any known contemporary
> historician telling anything about a certain Jesus
> Christ(nb: Christ is NOT a Family Name; it merely
> means "Messiah"... ).
>
>
> ATS: No, Christos does NOT mean messiah; it means anointed, i.e.,
> Anointed One as a personal name. It is, however, used to translate the Hebrew
> word messiah. For phonological reasons, it was often confused with Chrestos,
> a common slave name, which means useful or serviceable.
>
> ..about the fact that he "walked
> on water", "multiplied fishes" and was finally
> "Crucified"( n.b. the Roman way used to crucify
> criminals did NOT make use of any "Cross" and
> "Nails").... .and the like.
>
> ATS: If the Romans did not use nails or crosses, could you possibly
> explain the use of the Latin curse I in malam crucem, go to the
> evil/wicked/ etc. cross, or the archaeological finding of a the skeleton of a
> person with nails between the two bones of the lower arms? The Greek word
> kheir, often translated hand, really means hand and lower arm, so nails in the
> hands might well mean nails in the lower arm, not to mention that the hands
> are unlikely to support this procedure for the necessary time. Apparently
> ropes rather than nails were used at times, but it seems evident that the
> Romans did indeed practice crucifixion with nails.
>
> The ONLY (contraddictory) tales we know about Jesus
> Messiah are through the "Evangelists" whose complete
> names and deeds in life are totally unknown.
>
> If anybody can tell me the name of a known
> hystorician( Plinus,etc. )telling anything about Jesus Christ/Messiah' Life and
> deeds please let me
> know.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> That's why the most reasonable conclusion is that
> Jesus Never Exsisted; it is just a tale, like
> Cinderella.
>
> ATS: There seems to be abundant evidence that there was a historical
> person named Jesus. Moreover, at least some of his biographical details also
> seem to be supported by historians. I leave the rest for historians and
> theologians.
>
> VALETE OPTIME
> LVCIVS Q. VESTA
>
>
> Vale, et valete.
>
>
> --- phoenixfyre17 <phoenixfyre17@ yahoo.com <mailto:phoenixfyre 17%40yahoo. com>
> > ha
> scritto:
>
>> > Salve Nabarz,
>> >
>> > I know in some Italian and Italian-American
>> > families, the Epiphany
>> > is celebrated as the day when Befana (a kind old
>> > witch) delivers
>> > gifts to children while flying around on her broom.
>> >
>> > An older Italian version of the modern Santa Claus,
>> > if you will.
>> >
>> > Vale optime,
>> > Nero
>> >
>> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:Nova- Roma%40yahoogrou ps.com> ,
>> "Nabarz"
>> > <nabarz@...> wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > It just so happens that in this particular
>> > instance, it seems
>> > that at
>>>> > > > least one Christian writer (Iulius Africanus)
>> > had already
>> > calculated a
>>>> > > > date for the celebration of the birth of Christ
>> > as 25 December -
>> > for
>>>> > > > whatever reason - before any other "solar deity"
>> > had made his
>> > imprint.
>>>> > > >
>>> > > Salve Cato,
>>> > >
>>> > > Putting the Armenian Church aside who celebrates
>> > Christmas on 6th
>>> > > ofJanuary still.
>>> > >
>>> > > Just to be clear, according Iulius Africanus
>> > Christ was conceived
>> > (25
>>> > > March) i.e. shortly after Spring Equinox (21st
>> > March) and was born
>>> > > (25Dec) shortly after Winter Solstice (21
>> > December).
>>> > >
>>> > > Perfect, now that is called an accurate Solar god
>> > ;-)
>>> > >
>>> > > Christ as a light of world, is conceived at the
>> > balance of
>> > light/dark,
>>> > > and born at time of darkness, bringing light to
>> > world. Sounds good
>> > to me.
>>> > >
>>> > > The winter solstice and return of light has been
>> > marked and
>> > celebrated
>>> > > for a very long time before Christ, for physical
>> > evidence e.g look
>> > at
>>> > > sites like Stonehenge.
>>> > >
>>> > > Anyway have a great Christmas, Winter Solstice,
>> > Yule, Shabe Yalda,
>>> > > Alban Arthuran etc...
>>> > >
>>> > > I guess the point is many people from different
>> > cultures and
>> > religions
>>> > > celebrate return and birth of light, the label we
>> > give it is
>> > secondary
>>> > > imho.
>>> > >
>>> > > Regards,
>>> > > Nabarz
>
> ____________ _________ _________ _____
>
>
> Messages in this topic
> <http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Nova- Roma/message/ 53356;
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





__________________________________ Ihr erstes Fernweh? Wo gibt es den schönsten Strand? www.yahoo.de/clever

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53548 From: Marcus Hirtius Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Salve,

Maior writes:

"Justus of Tiberia a Jew
, who came from Galilee and was a contemporary of Jesus never
mentions Jesus in his entire history.

Philo of Alexandria, the great Jewish philosopher & historian, who
was in Jerusalem & mentions Pilate, never mentions Jesus."

Then Maior writes:

"So to the Jews of the time, Jesus was a non-figure of small if nil
importance. There is no historical evidence by contemporary Jewish
accounts that Jews believed Jesus was the Messiah."

MHA: So if Jews of the time did not see Jesus as an important figure, one of nil importance, and they did not accept him as the Messiah...then why WOULD Philo or Justus mention him?

The answer is, they probably wouldnt. He was only important to a fringe group. A group of Jews and Gentiles that recognized him as the Messiah. Only after his death did his message/story explode.


So by what Maior has written, Philo or Justus not mentioning Jesus...means nothing really. It is irrelevant.

Vale,

M. Hirtius Ahenobarbus











---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53549 From: Michael Echevarria Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: AW: [Nova-Roma] Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Exi
Salve,

It is rather harsh, indeed, to say that the man Jesus never existed. Who is anyone to say that such a man never existed and if his name never appears in documents during or after his time does not necessarily mean he never existed. History changes and so do stories of grandeur, whether they be lost in time or found preserved in a cave in who knows where. But most would agree that the man, Jesus, actually did indeed exist. Are all the stories about him true?? Maybe, maybe not. Was he actually the Messiah the people were waiting for, the Son of God?? Maybe, maybe not. But many would agree that he was a great man with a great vision. A wonderful prophet who gave the people back their true selves, who gave them back their identity and made them realize that their God was with them.

Will we ever know if he changed water into wine, walked on water, rose people from the dead, cured the sick, resurrected, was single or married with children?? Probably not. That is where the person patches into their faith and makes those decisions of truly believing these things occured. Making that kind of decision should be out of ones own free will and not because you are told if you do not believe in these things you will rot in hell for all eternity. Believe it because you feel it is right and it is something that will better your life. Belief is sacred to ones identity. So to say that Jesus never existed and disrespecting anothers faith is totally inconsiderate. We should be mindful of the things we say about other religions because statements such as that would make one seem ignorant.

Lucius Iulius Regulus

Titus Flavius Aquila <titus.aquila@...> wrote:
Salvete Quirites,

I agree that their might have been a person called Jesus, a jew born either in Betlehem or Nazaret who might have had a strong
charisma. During these days there were several religious teachers in Judea and they were all teaching their spirits.

The Jews had waited for a very long time for the arrival of their king and a person with strong charisma obviusly would have attracted
them.

If you believe the tales that Jesus was walking above the water, the water ,wine and bread issues (famous aphorisms), waking up the
people from the dead, it is straight up to you.

Vale optime
Titus Flavius Aquila

----- Ursprüngliche Mail ----
Von: A. Tullia Scholastica <fororom@...>
An: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Gesendet: Mittwoch, den 12. Dezember 2007, 23:53:13 Uhr
Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed

> A. Tullia Scholastica L. Quirino quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque bonae
> voluntatis S.P.D.
>
>
>
> Salvete Omnes
>
> there is no ancient text of any known contemporary
> historician telling anything about a certain Jesus
> Christ(nb: Christ is NOT a Family Name; it merely
> means "Messiah"... ).
>
>
> ATS: No, Christos does NOT mean messiah; it means anointed, i.e.,
> Anointed One as a personal name. It is, however, used to translate the Hebrew
> word messiah. For phonological reasons, it was often confused with Chrestos,
> a common slave name, which means useful or serviceable.
>
> ..about the fact that he "walked
> on water", "multiplied fishes" and was finally
> "Crucified"( n.b. the Roman way used to crucify
> criminals did NOT make use of any "Cross" and
> "Nails").... .and the like.
>
> ATS: If the Romans did not use nails or crosses, could you possibly
> explain the use of the Latin curse I in malam crucem, go to the
> evil/wicked/ etc. cross, or the archaeological finding of a the skeleton of a
> person with nails between the two bones of the lower arms? The Greek word
> kheir, often translated hand, really means hand and lower arm, so nails in the
> hands might well mean nails in the lower arm, not to mention that the hands
> are unlikely to support this procedure for the necessary time. Apparently
> ropes rather than nails were used at times, but it seems evident that the
> Romans did indeed practice crucifixion with nails.
>
> The ONLY (contraddictory) tales we know about Jesus
> Messiah are through the "Evangelists" whose complete
> names and deeds in life are totally unknown.
>
> If anybody can tell me the name of a known
> hystorician( Plinus,etc. )telling anything about Jesus Christ/Messiah' Life and
> deeds please let me
> know.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> That's why the most reasonable conclusion is that
> Jesus Never Exsisted; it is just a tale, like
> Cinderella.
>
> ATS: There seems to be abundant evidence that there was a historical
> person named Jesus. Moreover, at least some of his biographical details also
> seem to be supported by historians. I leave the rest for historians and
> theologians.
>
> VALETE OPTIME
> LVCIVS Q. VESTA
>
>
> Vale, et valete.
>
>
> --- phoenixfyre17 <phoenixfyre17@ yahoo.com <mailto:phoenixfyre 17%40yahoo. com>
> > ha
> scritto:
>
>> > Salve Nabarz,
>> >
>> > I know in some Italian and Italian-American
>> > families, the Epiphany
>> > is celebrated as the day when Befana (a kind old
>> > witch) delivers
>> > gifts to children while flying around on her broom.
>> >
>> > An older Italian version of the modern Santa Claus,
>> > if you will.
>> >
>> > Vale optime,
>> > Nero
>> >
>> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:Nova- Roma%40yahoogrou ps.com> ,
>> "Nabarz"
>> > <nabarz@...> wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > It just so happens that in this particular
>> > instance, it seems
>> > that at
>>>> > > > least one Christian writer (Iulius Africanus)
>> > had already
>> > calculated a
>>>> > > > date for the celebration of the birth of Christ
>> > as 25 December -
>> > for
>>>> > > > whatever reason - before any other "solar deity"
>> > had made his
>> > imprint.
>>>> > > >
>>> > > Salve Cato,
>>> > >
>>> > > Putting the Armenian Church aside who celebrates
>> > Christmas on 6th
>>> > > ofJanuary still.
>>> > >
>>> > > Just to be clear, according Iulius Africanus
>> > Christ was conceived
>> > (25
>>> > > March) i.e. shortly after Spring Equinox (21st
>> > March) and was born
>>> > > (25Dec) shortly after Winter Solstice (21
>> > December).
>>> > >
>>> > > Perfect, now that is called an accurate Solar god
>> > ;-)
>>> > >
>>> > > Christ as a light of world, is conceived at the
>> > balance of
>> > light/dark,
>>> > > and born at time of darkness, bringing light to
>> > world. Sounds good
>> > to me.
>>> > >
>>> > > The winter solstice and return of light has been
>> > marked and
>> > celebrated
>>> > > for a very long time before Christ, for physical
>> > evidence e.g look
>> > at
>>> > > sites like Stonehenge.
>>> > >
>>> > > Anyway have a great Christmas, Winter Solstice,
>> > Yule, Shabe Yalda,
>>> > > Alban Arthuran etc...
>>> > >
>>> > > I guess the point is many people from different
>> > cultures and
>> > religions
>>> > > celebrate return and birth of light, the label we
>> > give it is
>> > secondary
>>> > > imho.
>>> > >
>>> > > Regards,
>>> > > Nabarz
>
> ____________ _________ _________ _____
>
>
> Messages in this topic
> <http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Nova- Roma/message/ 53356;
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

__________________________________ Ihr erstes Fernweh? Wo gibt es den schönsten Strand? www.yahoo.de/clever

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53550 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: First Saturnalia
Agricola Omnibus sal.

I am just wondering if anyone is celebrating their *first* Saturnalia
this year. How are you planning your first Saturnalia? What issues are
you finding? Are you mentioning Saturnalia to others?

Optime valete!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53551 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: First Saturnalia
Cato Lucretio Agricolae Moravio Piscino omnibus in Forumque SPD

Salvete!

Just in time, Agricole! Agricole, Piscine, I was wondering: I have
busts of both Apollo and Diana, and one of Iuppiter OM is winging its
way towards me (nope, He hasn't changed Himself into a swan again, but
rather is coming via UPS) because I couldn't find one of Saturn.

Is it appropriate to crown these busts with holly (or laurel) to
celebrate the Saturnalia? What other simple traditions do you suggest?

Valete,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53552 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
G. Petronius Dexter A. Tulliae Scholasticae SPD,

> > ATS: If the Romans did not use nails or crosses, could you
possibly
> > explain the use of the Latin curse I in malam crucem, go to the
> > evil/wicked/etc. cross, or the archaeological finding of a the
skeleton of a
> > person with nails between the two bones of the lower arms? The
Greek word
> > kheir, often translated hand, really means hand and lower arm, so
nails in the
> > hands might well mean nails in the lower arm, not to mention that
the hands
> > are unlikely to support this procedure for the necessary time.
Apparently
> > ropes rather than nails were used at times, but it seems evident
that the
> > Romans did indeed practice crucifixion with nails.

Crucifixion, on the days of Tiberius Caesar, was not a punishment, a
penalty, a sentence against prophets, philosophs or dreamers... In
what Roman law can you find the crucifixion against prophets? In
Rome, Claudius Caesar got rid of the astrologers and others
troublesomes but he did not crucify their...

Cross was a supplice against slaves and rebels. Jesus was not a slave
nor a rebel."Reddite ergo quae sunt Caesaris, Caesari ; et quae sunt
Dei, Deo." (Luc,20,25).

Vale.

G. Petronius Dexter
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53553 From: Lucius Rutilius Minervalis Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Salvete Omnes,

"Quantum nobis nostrisque ea de Christo fabula profuerit, satis est
omnibus seculis notum" [Pope Léon X (1475-1521)]

Valete,

Lucius Rutilius Minervalis
Stultus Paganus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53554 From: Lucius Quirinus Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
SALVETE OMNES

as far as I know, the "CROSS" was an horizontal wodden
pole positioned on two vertical poles supporting the
horizontal one at the two edges.

The person(rebels) got their wrists tighten with ROPES
on the horizontal pole and left there till they did
for suffocation.
NO NAILS , therefore, NO Cross as we know it today.
Please note that the Witness of Jeova, who are 100%
christians and consider the Bible(old and new
testament)sacred and true DO NOT USE THE CROSS AS
THEIR SYMBOL!

It is interisting to notice that the "Cross" as we
know it today was adopted(invented) by christians only
a few Centuries after they came to power through
bloody wars(battle of Milvius Bridge-Roma-where
Costantinus defeated Massentius, Theodosius defeated
Flavius Eugenius, etc.).

Originally, the most typical symbol adopted was a
Lamb, or a man with a Lamb on his shoulders(as we can
also see it in the Catacombs-christians cemeteries-)

VALETE BENE
LVCIVS Q. VESTA



--- Gaius Petronius Dexter <jfarnoud94@...> ha
scritto:

> A: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Da: "Gaius Petronius Dexter" <jfarnoud94@...>
> Data: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 09:53:57 -0000
> Oggetto: [Nova-Roma] Re: a.s. II diem Natalem
> Christi/Jesus never Existed
>
> G. Petronius Dexter A. Tulliae Scholasticae SPD,
>
> > > ATS: If the Romans did not use nails or
> crosses, could you
> possibly
> > > explain the use of the Latin curse I in malam
> crucem, go to the
> > > evil/wicked/etc. cross, or the archaeological
> finding of a the
> skeleton of a
> > > person with nails between the two bones of the
> lower arms? The
> Greek word
> > > kheir, often translated hand, really means hand
> and lower arm, so
> nails in the
> > > hands might well mean nails in the lower arm,
> not to mention that
> the hands
> > > are unlikely to support this procedure for the
> necessary time.
> Apparently
> > > ropes rather than nails were used at times, but
> it seems evident
> that the
> > > Romans did indeed practice crucifixion with
> nails.
>
> Crucifixion, on the days of Tiberius Caesar, was not
> a punishment, a
> penalty, a sentence against prophets, philosophs or
> dreamers... In
> what Roman law can you find the crucifixion against
> prophets? In
> Rome, Claudius Caesar got rid of the astrologers and
> others
> troublesomes but he did not crucify their...
>
> Cross was a supplice against slaves and rebels.
> Jesus was not a slave
> nor a rebel."Reddite ergo quae sunt Caesaris,
> Caesari ; et quae sunt
> Dei, Deo." (Luc,20,25).
>
> Vale.
>
> G. Petronius Dexter



___________________________________
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53555 From: Lucius Quirinus Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: AW: [Nova-Roma] Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Exi
SALVE LVCIVS OMNESQUE

with all my respect for people who have different
ideas, I think that, in general, the firm belief in
something without having any pertinent solid evidence
sounds like idiocy.
What if I tell you that I am a believer of Santa
Claus, I have a great Faith on Him , because I Feel he
does exist and he brings me every year beautiful
gifts??!
...or if I tell you I have a great Faith in Mithra,
the Son of Aura Mazda, the only God. I firmly believe
Mithra was born by a Virgin and He is mankind's
Savior...

...or, as a Roman Citizen, I believe Romolus, founder
of Roma and of our Civilization, was the Son of a God,
Mars, and of a Virgin, Rea Silvia. After he died, he
ascended to Heaven next to His Father, Mars!!
I firmly believe that this is true because I "Feel"
it!!


Again, I look forward to receiving any indications
about solid hystorical evidence coherent with the
description of a man called Jesus the christ/messiah.

Just consider that contemporary famous(and also not so
famous)men(just think of our Emperor Augustus) who
lived in that period of time are coherently described
down to the very small details in dozens of Hystory
books coupled with solid evidence like statues,
paintings,Family ties and Geanology, inscriptions,
etc.

Hystory is Hystory, Legends are only Legends.

BENE VALE
LVCIVS Q. VESTA


--- Michael Echevarria <luciusjul25@...> ha
scritto:

> Salve,
>
> It is rather harsh, indeed, to say that the man
> Jesus never existed. Who is anyone to say that such
> a man never existed and if his name never appears in
> documents during or after his time does not
> necessarily mean he never existed. History changes
> and so do stories of grandeur, whether they be lost
> in time or found preserved in a cave in who knows
> where. But most would agree that the man, Jesus,
> actually did indeed exist. Are all the stories about
> him true?? Maybe, maybe not. Was he actually the
> Messiah the people were waiting for, the Son of
> God?? Maybe, maybe not. But many would agree that he
> was a great man with a great vision. A wonderful
> prophet who gave the people back their true selves,
> who gave them back their identity and made them
> realize that their God was with them.
>
> Will we ever know if he changed water into wine,
> walked on water, rose people from the dead, cured
> the sick, resurrected, was single or married with
> children?? Probably not. That is where the person
> patches into their faith and makes those decisions
> of truly believing these things occured. Making that
> kind of decision should be out of ones own free will
> and not because you are told if you do not believe
> in these things you will rot in hell for all
> eternity. Believe it because you feel it is right
> and it is something that will better your life.
> Belief is sacred to ones identity. So to say that
> Jesus never existed and disrespecting anothers faith
> is totally inconsiderate. We should be mindful of
> the things we say about other religions because
> statements such as that would make one seem
> ignorant.
>
> Lucius Iulius Regulus
>
> Titus Flavius Aquila <titus.aquila@...> wrote:
> Salvete Quirites,
>
> I agree that their might have been a person called
> Jesus, a jew born either in Betlehem or Nazaret who
> might have had a strong
> charisma. During these days there were several
> religious teachers in Judea and they were all
> teaching their spirits.
>
> The Jews had waited for a very long time for the
> arrival of their king and a person with strong
> charisma obviusly would have attracted
> them.
>
> If you believe the tales that Jesus was walking
> above the water, the water ,wine and bread issues
> (famous aphorisms), waking up the
> people from the dead, it is straight up to you.
>
> Vale optime
> Titus Flavius Aquila
>
> ----- Ursprüngliche Mail ----
> Von: A. Tullia Scholastica <fororom@...>
> An: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, den 12. Dezember 2007, 23:53:13
> Uhr
> Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: a.s. II diem Natalem
> Christi/Jesus never Existed
>
> > A. Tullia Scholastica L. Quirino quiritibus,
> sociis, peregrinisque bonae
> > voluntatis S.P.D.
> >
> >
> >
> > Salvete Omnes
> >
> > there is no ancient text of any known contemporary
> > historician telling anything about a certain Jesus
> > Christ(nb: Christ is NOT a Family Name; it merely
> > means "Messiah"... ).
> >
> >
> > ATS: No, Christos does NOT mean messiah; it means
> anointed, i.e.,
> > Anointed One as a personal name. It is, however,
> used to translate the Hebrew
> > word messiah. For phonological reasons, it was
> often confused with Chrestos,
> > a common slave name, which means useful or
> serviceable.
> >
> > ..about the fact that he "walked
> > on water", "multiplied fishes" and was finally
> > "Crucified"( n.b. the Roman way used to crucify
> > criminals did NOT make use of any "Cross" and
> > "Nails").... .and the like.
> >
> > ATS: If the Romans did not use nails or crosses,
> could you possibly
> > explain the use of the Latin curse I in malam
> crucem, go to the
> > evil/wicked/ etc. cross, or the archaeological
> finding of a the skeleton of a
> > person with nails between the two bones of the
> lower arms? The Greek word
> > kheir, often translated hand, really means hand
> and lower arm, so nails in the
> > hands might well mean nails in the lower arm, not
> to mention that the hands
> > are unlikely to support this procedure for the
> necessary time. Apparently
> > ropes rather than nails were used at times, but it
> seems evident that the
> > Romans did indeed practice crucifixion with nails.
> >
> > The ONLY (contraddictory) tales we know about
> Jesus
> > Messiah are through the "Evangelists" whose
> complete
> > names and deeds in life are totally unknown.
> >
> > If anybody can tell me the name of a known
> > hystorician( Plinus,etc. )telling anything about
> Jesus Christ/Messiah' Life and
> > deeds please let me
> > know.
> >
> > Thanks in advance.
> >
> > That's why the most reasonable conclusion is that
> > Jesus Never Exsisted; it is just a tale, like
> > Cinderella.
> >
> > ATS: There seems to be abundant evidence that
> there was a historical
> > person named Jesus. Moreover, at least some of his
> biographical details also
> > seem to be supported by historians. I leave the
> rest for historians and
> > theologians.
> >
> > VALETE OPTIME
> > LVCIVS Q. VESTA



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53556 From: Lucius Quirinus Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi
Salve Cato

yes, He should be returning from East. A couple of
years ago I was in Damascus and my Muslim friend
showed me the place where, as written in the Kuran,
Jusus Christ should be landing sometime(unspecified)
in the future.

It is at the corner(minaret) of what today is a Mosque
but it was a Church before and a Roman Temple before.

Vale bene.
LVCIVS Q. VESTA

--- Gaius Equitius Cato <mlcinnyc@...> ha
scritto:

> Cato L. Iulio Regulo M. Hortensiae Maiori SPD
>
> Salvete.
>
> It is common to build Christian churches so that the
> congregation
> faces East, as that is the direction from which
> Christ will supposedly
> return at the end of the world. Of course, it also
> contains within
> itself the idea of facing the rising sun signifying
> rebirth (under the
> auspices of the Eucharistic Feast), Jesus as the
> "Sun of
> Righteousness", and as a constant reminder of His
> Resurrection.
> Before you say it, yes, these are ideas common among
> countless
> religions. Christianity has taken that theme and
> revealed its
> fulfillment in Christ.
>
> There are several other possibilities as well.
> Romanesque and
> medieval cathedrals often placed the most ornate and
> "important"
> stained glass windows on the East side to gather as
> much light as
> possible, focusing the congregation on the altar.
> Morning sunlight is
> stronger than evening sunlight, so in a world "lit
> only by fire",
> making use of the most natural light possible makes
> practical sense.
>
> Many churches have different orientations, often
> based upon their
> being built upon existing structures, like temples
> &c., so they simply
> adopted the older foundations. St. Peter's Basilica
> in Rome itself
> has the papal altar at the Western end.
>
> Just as a reminder, that article is speculatory, and
> not the end of
> scholastic thought regarding Mithraism. Just
> because I don't agree
> with its conclusions does not mean I mindlessly,
> uneducatedly "believe
> every word that escapes their [whoever they are]
> lips"; it simply
> means that I do not think the author is correct. I
> linked to articles
> written by intelligent thinkers who also disagree
> with it.
>
> Marca Hortensia, of *course* I linked to Christian
> apologetics. I'm a
> Christian. This should not be a huge surprise to
> you. I did not
> think it necessary to put a warning in front of it.
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>
>
>
>



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53557 From: Lucius Quirinus Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
SALVETE OMNES
Flavius Josephus may have written of
"christians"(followers of a messiah) NOT of the Life
and Deeds of a certain Mr. Jesus Christ.
It make a big difference!...even the Jews were
"christians"= "messianic"..

VALE

LVCIVS Q. VESTA

--- Maior <rory12001@...> ha scritto:

> Maior Aurelio sal;
> Scholars today accept that that the Flavius
> Josephus piece
> on Jesus is a forgery. I've reposted links to
> prominent Jews in
> Jesus' day who never mentioned him.
>
> Justus of Tiberia a Jew
>
Jew,http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=738&letter=J
> who came from Galilee and was a contemporary of
> Jesus never
> mentions Jesus in his entire history.
>
> Philo of Alexandria, the great Jewish philosopher &
> historian, who
> was in Jerusalem & mentions Pilate, never mentions
> Jesus.
>
> Flavius Josephus, another contemporary & historian
> hardly mentions
> Jesus either, all scholars agree that a part
> praising Jesus was
> later put in by pious Christians.
>
> So to the Jews of the time, Jesus was a non-figure
> of small if nil
> importance. There is no historical evidence by
> contemporary Jewish
> accounts that Jews believed Jesus was the Messiah.
>
> Here is a fine resource from the Hebrew University
> of Jerusalem
>
http://www.dinur.org/resources/resourceCategoryDisplay.aspx?
> categoryID=424&rsid=478 for internet resources on
> Jews, Gnosticism
> and Early Christianity during the Roman Empire.
>
> And finally here "Jesus in the Talmud"
> ,http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Talmud-Peter-
>
Schafer/dp/0691129266/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-6465316-1463346?
> ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1175374518&sr=1-1
> is a book by Professor Peter Schaefer of Princeton
> University
>
> bene valete in pacem deorum
> Marca Hortensia Maior
>
> > >
> > >
> > > Salvete Omnes
> > >
> > > there is no ancient text of any known
> contemporary
> > > historician telling anything about a certain
> Jesus
> > > Christ(nb: Christ is NOT a Family Name; it
> merely
> > > means "Messiah"...).
> > >
> > >
> > > ATS: No, Christos does NOT mean messiah; it
> means anointed,
> i.e.,
> > > Anointed One as a personal name. It is,
> however, used to
> translate the Hebrew
> > > word messiah. For phonological reasons, it was
> often confused
> with Chrestos,
> > > a common slave name, which means useful or
> serviceable.
> > >
> > > ..about the fact that he "walked
> > > on water", "multiplied fishes" and was finally
> > > "Crucified"(n.b. the Roman way used to crucify
> > > criminals did NOT make use of any "Cross" and
> > > "Nails").....and the like.
> > >
> > > ATS: If the Romans did not use nails or
> crosses, could you
> possibly
> > > explain the use of the Latin curse I in malam
> crucem, go to the
> > > evil/wicked/etc. cross, or the archaeological
> finding of a the
> skeleton of a
> > > person with nails between the two bones of the
> lower arms? The
> Greek word
> > > kheir, often translated hand, really means hand
> and lower arm,
> so nails in the
> > > hands might well mean nails in the lower arm,
> not to mention
> that the hands
> > > are unlikely to support this procedure for the
> necessary time.
> Apparently
> > > ropes rather than nails were used at times, but
> it seems evident
> that the
> > > Romans did indeed practice crucifixion with
> nails.
> > >
> > > The ONLY (contraddictory)tales we know about
> Jesus
> > > Messiah are through the "Evangelists" whose
> complete
> > > names and deeds in life are totally unknown.
> > >
> > > If anybody can tell me the name of a known
> > > hystorician(Plinus,etc.)telling anything about
> Jesus
> Christ/Messiah' Life and
> > > deeds please let me
> > > know.
> > >
> > > Thanks in advance.
> > >
> > > That's why the most reasonable conclusion is
> that
> > > Jesus Never Exsisted; it is just a tale, like
> > > Cinderella.
> > >
> > > ATS: There seems to be abundant evidence
> that there was a
> historical
> > > person named Jesus. Moreover, at least some of
> his biographical
> details also
> > > seem to be supported by historians. I leave the
> rest for
> historians and
> > > theologians.
> > >
> > > VALETE OPTIME
> > > LVCIVS Q. VESTA
> > >
> > >
> > > Vale, et valete.
> > >
> > >
> > > --- phoenixfyre17 <phoenixfyre17@...
> <mailto:phoenixfyre17%
> 40yahoo.com>
> > > > ha
> > > scritto:
> > >
> > >> > Salve Nabarz,
> > >> >
> > >> > I know in some Italian and Italian-American
> > >> > families, the Epiphany
> > >> > is celebrated as the day when Befana (a kind
> old
> > >> > witch) delivers
> > >> > gifts to children while flying around on her
> broom.
> > >> >
> > >> > An older Italian version of the modern Santa
> Claus,
> > >> > if you will.
> > >> >
> > >> > Vale optime,
> > >> > Nero
> > >> >
> > >> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:Nova-Roma%
> 40yahoogroups.com> ,
> > >> "Nabarz"
> > >> > <nabarz@> wrote:
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > >
> > >>>> > > >
> > >>>> > > > It just so happens that in this
> particular
> > >> > instance, it seems
> > >> > that at
> > >>>> > > > least one Christian writer (Iulius
> Africanus)
> > >> > had already
> > >> > calculated a
> > >>>> > > > date for the celebration of the birth
> of Christ
> > >> > as 25 December -
> > >> > for
> > >>>> > > > whatever reason - before any other
> "solar deity"
> > >> > had made his
> > >> > imprint.
> > >>>> > > >
> > >>> > > Salve Cato,
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > Putting the Armenian Church aside who
> celebrates
> > >> > Christmas on 6th
> > >>> > > ofJanuary still.
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > Just to be clear, according Iulius
> Africanus
> > >> > Christ was conceived
> > >> > (25
>
=== message truncated ===



___________________________________
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53558 From: Titus Flavius Aquila Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Ex Officio Tribuni Plebis Lex De Imperio MMDCCLXI
TFA Tribunus Plebis omnes civibus SPD

Ex Officio Tribuni Plebis


I hereby request to reconsider and to correct the paragraph on conferred Imperium to the Aediles Plebis on "Lex De Imperio MMDCCLXI" posted by the Lictores in the ML (message: http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Nova- Roma/message/ 53525)

Otherwise I will have to announce my intercessio against the paragraph on conferred Imperium to the Aediles Plebis on "Lex De Imperio MMDCCLXI" posted by the Lictores in the ML (message: http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Nova- Roma/message


According the words of the Lictor Equitius Marinus in the message posted in the ML (http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Nova- Roma/message/ 53544):

Gn. Equitius Marinus dixit> *This* lictor of the Comitia Curiata most definitely did not vote to confer imperium to plebeian aediles. I wrote to the PM privately about the error he made by including the plebeian aediles and then I raised the point within the Comitia Curiata. Since the PM has seen fit to now publish this incorrect statement which most definitely is NOT in keeping with the Lex Arminia Equitia de Imperio, I feel compelled to issue this public repudiation of the Pontifex Maximus' statement.



The decision to include the Aediles plebis in this Lex de Imperio is against the Lex Arminia Equitia de Imperio.

The Aediles Plebis cannot have Imperium.

Valete
Titus Flavius Aquila

Tribunus Plebis
Nova Roma
Idibus Decembribus MMDCCLX AUC


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53559 From: L. Vitellius Triarius Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: Welcome new Pontifices
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, cassius622@... wrote:
>
> I would like to welcome Senator Fl. Galerius Aurelianus and Consul
Elect
> Marcus Moravius Piscinus as new Pontifices of Nova Roma!



Salvete New Pontifices:

Congratulations! It is going to be a good year!

Valete optime,
Triarius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53560 From: L. Vitellius Triarius Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> Maior Catoni spd:
> these links are Christian apologetics, which of course you can
> post, but say so please. I went to them to see scholarly articles.
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Vitellius Triarius"
> > <lucius_vitellius_triarius@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Salvete,
> > >
> > > Here is an interesting article on the Saturnalia and Christmas
> and
> > > Easter.
> > >

Triarius Maior spd:

No, dear, I did not say it was a scholarly article...just an
interesting one. :0 :)

Vale optime,
Triarius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53561 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: [NovaReligioRomana] Re: [Nova-Roma] Lex De Imperio MMDCCLXI - Th
Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus Marco Cassio Juliano salutem dicit

You had the names of the Curule Aediles wrong. You had the Plebeian
Aediles listed as Curule Aediles, which was incorrect. I provided the
correct names. Including the correct Plebeian Aediles, as you did,
was not correct since we do not pass imperium onto the Plebeian
Aediles. I did not suggest that you include the Plebeian Aediles, but
to correct the names of the Curule Aediles since it would be incorrect
to pass imperium (of a Curule Aedile) upon a Plebeian Aedile.

I assumed, incorrectly, that you would have corrected the names of
Curule Aediles and left off the Plebeian Aediles -- since I assumed
you knew that Plebeian Aediles did not receive imperium. Are you
implying that your unawareness of this fact is my fault? I thought it
was common knowledge that in Nova Roma Curule Aediles have Imperium
but Plebeian Aediles do not -- it is in our constitution. Please do
not try to blame this mistake upon me!

Here is what I posted to the Comitia Curiata list:

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus Marco Cassio Juliano salutem dicit

I certainly support the Lex de Imperio, but wanted to point out one small thing.

Publius Constantinus Placidus and Flavius Galerius Aurelianus are
plebeian aediles for next year.

Publius Memmius Albucius and Sextus Lucilius Tutor are the Curule
Aediles for next year.

Vale:

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus

---

Vale:

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus

On Dec 13, 2007 9:13 AM, <cassius622@...> wrote:
>
>
> Salve,
>
> I did indeed see Modianus' correction to my original mis posting. (Which was
> a cut an paste of the elected officials from the election announcement on
> the main list.)
>
> I did not specifically acknowledge Modianus' post when he pointed out my
> error, but did make the change that he suggested. Now THAT is wrong as well.
>
> Hopefully my error(s) will not necessarily interrupt the proper passing of
> Imperium to the new Magistrates, and can be corrected for posting on the NR
> website.
>
> Valete,
>
> Marcus Cassius Julianus
> Pontifex Maximus
>
>
>
> In a message dated 12/13/2007 6:21:08 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> tau.athanasios@... writes:
> I pointed this out as well. The original Lex de Imperio had the two
> future plebeian aediles listed as curule aediles with no mention
> whatsoever of the office of plebeian aediles. I pointed this out, and
> received no acknowledgement. Then a list appears that is corrected,
> but includes the plebeian aediles and the curule aediles -- still
> wrong. If memory serves me correctly more than one lictor pointed
> that out. Some didn't notice. The lictores were also asked to
> witness the new priesthoods, not invest them with imperium -- but that
> is another issue.
>
> It all falls into the category of "attention to detail."
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> See AOL's top rated recipes and easy ways to stay in shape for winter.
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53562 From: Gaius Popillius Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: [ReligioRomana] Witnessing the New Priesthoods
>
> Salvete,



> I, Gaius Popillius Laenas, as a Lictor of Nova Roma, hereby witness
> the appointments of Fl. Galerius Aurelianus and Marcus Moravius
> Piscinus as Pontifices of Nova Roma. As a member of the Comitia
> Curiata I wish them good fortune in their offices and in their work on
> behalf of the Religio Romana.


Valete


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53563 From: cassius622@aol.com Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Correction: Lex De Imperio MMDCCLXI
Salvete,

I "withdraw" my previous announcement and reissue the Lex De Imperio
MMDCCLXI minus the names of the Plebian Aediles, which I had pasted into the
document by accident:


Lex de Imperio

We, the Lictors of the Comita Curiata of Nova Roma, recognize and
accept the results of the elections in the Comitia Centuriata for
consules and praetores, and the election in the Comitia Populi
Tributa for aediles curules. By this lex de imperio we confer
imperium as defined in the lex Arminia Equitia de imperio upon these
magistrates.

Consules: Marcus Moravius Piscinus Horatianus, Titus Iulius Sabinus

Praetores: Marcus Curiatius Complutensis and Marcus Iulius Severus

Curule Aediles: Publius Memmius Albucius and Sextus Lucilius

This lex de imperio shall become effective Kal. Ian. MMDCCLXI ‡
a.u.c. (2008 CE) and shall remain in effect until prid. Kal. Ian. ‡
MMDCCLXII a.u.c. (2009 CE).








**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53564 From: Lucius Quirinus Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
SALVETE OMNES


very little evidence I would say.

They ( Pliny the Younger and Tacitus) generically( by
hearsay) write about Christ and Christians; those are
synonyms of "Messiah" and "Followers of a Messiah" as
many such people exhisted those days...
Too little, I think, to describe the life , the deeds
and the existence of a purported living God !

VALETE
LVCIVS Q. VESTA



--- "Patrick D. Owen" <Patrick.Owen@...> ha
scritto:

> Fl. Galerius Aurelianus S.P.D.
>
> Now Pliny the Younger and Tacitus were not
> contemporaries of Jesus
> but wrote about Jesus and his cultus within the
> living memory of
> those who had followed Jesus.
>
> Tacitus:
>
> Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for
> their
> abominations, called Christians by the populace.
> Christus, from whom
> the name had its origin, suffered the extreme
> penalty during the
> reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius
> Pilatus, and a most
> mischievous superstition, thus checked for the
> moment, again broke
> out not only in Judaea, the first source of the
> evil, but even in
> Rome. . . .{5}
>
> 5. Tacitus, Annals 15.44, cited in Strobel, The Case
> for Christ, 82.
>
>
> Pliny the Younger:
>
> They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed
> day before it
> was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn
> to Christ, as
> to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not
> to any wicked
> deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or
> adultery, never to
> falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they
> should be called upon
> to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to
> separate, and
> then reassemble to partake of food--but food of an
> ordinary and
> innocent kind.{10}
>
> 10. Pliny, Letters, transl. by William Melmoth, rev.
> by W.M.L.
> Hutchinson (Cambridge: Harvard Univ. Press, 1935),
> vol. II, X:96,
> cited in Habermas, The Historical Jesus, 199.
>
> Valete.



___________________________________
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53565 From: quintus_arrius_nauta Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Quintus Arrius Nauta - Oath of office
-LATIN VERSION:

Ego, Quintus Arrius Nauta (Zoltán Zajonskovsky), hac re ipsa decus
Novae Romae me defensurum, et semper pro populo senatuque Novae Romae
acturum esse sollemniter IVRO.

Ego, Quintus Arrius Nauta (Zoltán Zajonskovsky), officio Tribuni
Plebis Novae
Romae accepto, deos deasque Romae in omnibus meae vitae publicae
temporibus culturum, et virtutes Romanas publica privataque vita me
persecuturum esse IVRO.

Ego, Quintus Arrius Nauta (Zoltán Zajonskovsky), Religioni Romanae me
fauturum et eam defensurum, et numquam contra eius statum publicum me
acturum esse, ne quid detrimenti capiat IVRO.

Ego, Quintus Arrius Nauta (Zoltán Zajonskovsky), officiis muneris Tribuni
Plebis me quam optime functurum esse praeterea IVRO.

Meo civis Novae Romae honore, coram deis deabusque populi Romani, et
voluntate favoreque eorum, ego munus tribunae plebis una cum iuribus,
privilegiis, muneribus et officiis comitantibus ACCIPIO.

-ENGLISH VERSION:

I, Quintus Arrius Nauta (Zoltán Zajonskovsky), do hereby solemnly swear to
uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best interests
of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Quintus Arrius Nauta (Zoltán
Zajonskovsky), swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my
public dealings,
and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

Quintus Arrius Nauta (Zoltán Zajonskovsky), swear to uphold and defend the
Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to
act in a way that would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Quintus Arrius Nauta (Zoltán Zajonskovsky), swear to protect and
defend the
Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Quintus Arrius Nauta (Zoltán Zajonskovsky), further swear to
fulfill the
obligations and responsibilities of the office of Tribunus Plebis to
the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the
Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor,
do I accept the position of Tribunus Plebis and all the rights,
privileges, obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53566 From: vallenporter Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Lucius Quirinus <ostiaaterni@...> wrote:
>
RE: Witness of Jeova
the letter "J" was not in use in the holy land for a few 100's of years
Later.


> SALVETE OMNES
>
> as far as I know, the "CROSS" was an horizontal wodden
> pole positioned on two vertical poles supporting the
> horizontal one at the two edges.
>
> The person(rebels) got their wrists tighten with ROPES
> on the horizontal pole and left there till they did
> for suffocation.
> NO NAILS , therefore, NO Cross as we know it today.
> Please note that the Witness of Jeova, who are 100%
> christians and consider the Bible(old and new
> testament)sacred and true DO NOT USE THE CROSS AS
> THEIR SYMBOL!
>
> It is interisting to notice that the "Cross" as we
> know it today was adopted(invented) by christians only
> a few Centuries after they came to power through
> bloody wars(battle of Milvius Bridge-Roma-where
> Costantinus defeated Massentius, Theodosius defeated
> Flavius Eugenius, etc.).
>
> Originally, the most typical symbol adopted was a
> Lamb, or a man with a Lamb on his shoulders(as we can
> also see it in the Catacombs-christians cemeteries-)
>
> VALETE BENE
> LVCIVS Q. VESTA
>
>
>
> --- Gaius Petronius Dexter <jfarnoud94@...> ha
> scritto:
>
> > A: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > Da: "Gaius Petronius Dexter" <jfarnoud94@...>
> > Data: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 09:53:57 -0000
> > Oggetto: [Nova-Roma] Re: a.s. II diem Natalem
> > Christi/Jesus never Existed
> >
> > G. Petronius Dexter A. Tulliae Scholasticae SPD,
> >
> > > > ATS: If the Romans did not use nails or
> > crosses, could you
> > possibly
> > > > explain the use of the Latin curse I in malam
> > crucem, go to the
> > > > evil/wicked/etc. cross, or the archaeological
> > finding of a the
> > skeleton of a
> > > > person with nails between the two bones of the
> > lower arms? The
> > Greek word
> > > > kheir, often translated hand, really means hand
> > and lower arm, so
> > nails in the
> > > > hands might well mean nails in the lower arm,
> > not to mention that
> > the hands
> > > > are unlikely to support this procedure for the
> > necessary time.
> > Apparently
> > > > ropes rather than nails were used at times, but
> > it seems evident
> > that the
> > > > Romans did indeed practice crucifixion with
> > nails.
> >
> > Crucifixion, on the days of Tiberius Caesar, was not
> > a punishment, a
> > penalty, a sentence against prophets, philosophs or
> > dreamers... In
> > what Roman law can you find the crucifixion against
> > prophets? In
> > Rome, Claudius Caesar got rid of the astrologers and
> > others
> > troublesomes but he did not crucify their...
> >
> > Cross was a supplice against slaves and rebels.
> > Jesus was not a slave
> > nor a rebel."Reddite ergo quae sunt Caesaris,
> > Caesari ; et quae sunt
> > Dei, Deo." (Luc,20,25).
> >
> > Vale.
> >
> > G. Petronius Dexter
>
>
>
> ___________________________________
> L'email della prossima generazione? Puoi averla con la Nuova Yahoo!
Mail: http://it.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53567 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: My first caerimonia
G. Petronius Dexter F. Galerio Aureliano Pontifici S.P.D.

> This is the first caerimonia that I ever prepared and performed in
> public on behalf of the Senate and People of Nova Roma that Iuppiter
> Dapalis and Venus Erycina will be favorably disposed towards the
> Senate and People and grant them productive vinyards and full cellars
> for the coming year.

It is a big chance.

But I am not at this level. I want to put my private altar, Lararium
meum, in my kitchen near the cooker. The wall I choose is east-facing.
Is-it "fas" (correct with the divine laws) to have an altar east-facing
or not ?

G. Petronius Dexter
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53568 From: M•IVL•SEVERVS Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Salvete,

I believe that we have more important matters to discuss, than the real existence of Jesus, the Christ...
Scaurus is no historical authority, as far as I know. And it's a flagrant lie that the existence of Jesus "is at least as well established as the existence of C. Iulius Caesar and Augustus". Nonsense!
No serious historian of his supposed times, refers to Jesus or offers a credible evidence of his existence. Everything in this sense is a fraud, like the so-called "Testimonium Flavianum".
If somebody, in good faith, wants to believe that Jesus was a real, historic figure, she or he has this sacred right.
And many of us have also the sacred right to believe that Jesus never existed...
But we should devote our time and efforts to what really matters to our Res publica...

Valete optime,


M•IVL•SEVERVS
SENATOR
PRÆTOR•ELECTVS
LEGATVS•PRO•PRÆTORE•PROVINCIƕMEXICO
SCRIBA•CENSORIS•C•F•B•M
INTERPRETER
MVSÆVS•COLLEGII•ERATOVS•SODALITATIS•MVSARVM
SOCIVS•CHORI•MVSARVM

---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53569 From: Michael Echevarria Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: First Saturnalia
Salve

I will be celebrating my first Saturnalia this year and I have to say I am really excited because the festivities will be held in my own home. I have invited many people over to particitpate from friends to family members. Dinner and dessert will be made every day but not by myself or any of the adults. The children of the family will be making dinner ( with a little help from the adults though, I want my house to still be standing at the end of this festival) They will also be serving us our food and drinks. The children couldnt be more excited because they love being in the kitchen and now that they have permission its even better for them. An Italian friend of mine will be making the fine cakes and cookies with his children so that should be fun as well.Wine will be filled to the brim. The house is completely decorated inside and out with gold and red and a star on the tree. Lights are all over the outside of the house as well. Music will be played each and every day
and I tried to get people to play live music but that was a flop. If anyone has good music that they could recommend to play during the festival that would be a great help. I need music to last all night and I am afraid I dont have that much

A problem that I am having is finding a statue of Saturn and can not seem to find it anywhere, only of Jupiter. So if anyone can provide information on where to find one on short notice that would be of great help. Im not sure exactly what to put at the center of the dinner table if not Saturn himself.

I have told others about Saturnalia and have convinced them to come join the festivities. And, believe it or not, many Catholics/Christians are coming over to join in the festivities but they might have to show up in dark colored robes covering their faces, it might not be acceptable to the church, right?? Hopefully, everything will turn out great for my first Saturnalia and may the Gods bless all those who will have their own festivities as well.

Lucius Iulius Regulus

"M. Lucretius Agricola" <wm_hogue@...> wrote:
Agricola Omnibus sal.

I am just wondering if anyone is celebrating their *first* Saturnalia
this year. How are you planning your first Saturnalia? What issues are
you finding? Are you mentioning Saturnalia to others?

Optime valete!






---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53570 From: Marcus Martianius Gangalius Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: [ComitiaCuriata] Lictores are reqested to Witness the New Priest
I, Marcus Martianius Gangalius, as a Lictor of Nova Roma, hereby witness the appointments of Fl. Galerius Aurelianus and Marcus Moravius Piscinus as Pontifices of Nova Roma. As a member of the Comitia Curiata I wish them good fortune in their offices and in their work on behalf of the Religio Romana.


GENS MARTIANIA
CONTENDERE, EXPLORARE, INVENIRE, ET NON CEDERE


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53571 From: Titus Flavius Aquila Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: AW: [NovaRoma-Announce] Correction: Lex De Imperio MMDCCLXI
T. Flavius Aquila Marco Cassi Juliano salutem plurimam dicit

Salve Pontifex Maximus Cassius,

thank you for withdrawing your previous announcement and for the reissue of the Lex De Imperio MMDCCLXI

Vale optime
Titus Flavius Aquila
Tribunus Plebis

Scriba Censoris KFBM
Nova Roma

----- Ursprüngliche Mail ----
Von: "cassius622@..." <cassius622@...>
An: Cassius622@...; Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
CC: ReligioRomana@yahoogroups.com; NRPriesthood@yahoogroups.com; NovaReligioRomana@yahoogroups.com; NovaRoma-Announce@yahoogroups.com
Gesendet: Donnerstag, den 13. Dezember 2007, 18:32:11 Uhr
Betreff: [NovaRoma-Announce] Correction: Lex De Imperio MMDCCLXI

Salvete,

I "withdraw" my previous announcement and reissue the Lex De Imperio MMDCCLXI minus the names of the Plebian Aediles, which I had pasted into the document by accident:


Lex de Imperio


We, the Lictors of the Comita Curiata of Nova Roma, recognize and
accept the results of the elections in the Comitia Centuriata for
consules and praetores, and the election in the Comitia Populi
Tributa for aediles curules. By this lex de imperio we confer
imperium as defined in the lex Arminia Equitia de imperio upon these
magistrates.

Consules: Marcus Moravius Piscinus Horatianus, Titus Iulius Sabinus

Praetores: Marcus Curiatius Complutensis and Marcus Iulius Severus

Curule Aediles: Publius Memmius Albucius and Sextus Lucilius

This lex de imperio shall become effective Kal. Ian. MMDCCLXI ‡
a.u.c. (2008 CE) and shall remain in effect until prid. Kal. Ian. ‡
MMDCCLXII a.u.c. (2009 CE).








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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53572 From: Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: Welcome new Pontifices
Salvete Senator Fl. Galerius Aurelianus and Consul Desiganus Marcus
Moravius Piscinus!

My warm congratulations to the appointment as Pontifices!

> Salvete Omnes,
>
>I would like to welcome Senator Fl. Galerius Aurelianus and Consul Elect
>Marcus Moravius Piscinus as new Pontifices of Nova Roma!
>
>Both Aurelianus and Piscinus have been active in the Religio and will be
>excellent additions to the Collegium Pontificum. I believe that as Pontifices
>they will be of great help in getting more public religious infrastructure
>built, and rituals done in the coming year.
>
>I hope all Citizens will join me in congratulating them both in their new
>offices!
>
>Valete,
>
>Marcus Cassius Julianus
>Pontifex Maximus

--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus

Princeps Senatus
Civis Romanus sum
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Main_Page
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53573 From: Kristoffer From Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Lucius Quirinus wrote:
> with all my respect for people who have different
> ideas, I think that, in general, the firm belief in
> something without having any pertinent solid evidence
> sounds like idiocy.

Salve, Luci Quirine Vesta.

Well, I have never actually SEEN any evidence that the world is round,
at least none that could not have been falsified. Images are easy to
manipulate, particularly these days. I have, however, heard several
theories of how the universe in general and our solar system in
particular works - which, given the comparatively few observations I
have made myself, seems to fit the evidence.

However, I am not enough of an empirical scientist to demand actual hard
evidence or seek it out for myself - I am willing to accept the
testimonies of astronomers, astronauts and real scientists. I believe
that the world is round, based on their hearsay.

Is that idiocy on my part, or just some slight trace of willingness to
compromise? Some basic faith in my fellow humans and their lack of
desire to continuously deceive me?

I am Christian by birth, confirmed as a protestant, consider myself an
atheist and rationalist foremost, yet I perform some basic rites of the
religio on behalf of provincia Thules.

Man is, by his very nature, not a rational creature. Do not expect, much
less demand, complete accountability in all parts of man's convictions.
Rejoice when you actually encounter it, should you ever do so.

Meanwhile, both you and others will feel better if you refrain from
quite so openly ridiculing their belief systems, no matter how worthy of
ridicule you may find them.

Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53574 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: Correction: Lex De Imperio MMDCCLXI
Salvete omnes,

My thanks to the Pontifex Maximus for fixing the text of the Lex de
Imperio. I am now able to fully endorse it with my vote of Uti Rogas.

I wish those magistrates invested with imperium, and all of next
year's magistrates, the very best.

Valete,

CN-EQVIT-MARINVS

assius622@... writes:

>
>
> Salvete,
>
> I "withdraw" my previous announcement and reissue the Lex De Imperio
> MMDCCLXI minus the names of the Plebian Aediles, which I had pasted into the
> document by accident:
>
>
> Lex de Imperio
>
> We, the Lictors of the Comita Curiata of Nova Roma, recognize and
> accept the results of the elections in the Comitia Centuriata for
> consules and praetores, and the election in the Comitia Populi
> Tributa for aediles curules. By this lex de imperio we confer
> imperium as defined in the lex Arminia Equitia de imperio upon these
> magistrates.
>
> Consules: Marcus Moravius Piscinus Horatianus, Titus Iulius Sabinus
>
> Praetores: Marcus Curiatius Complutensis and Marcus Iulius Severus
>
> Curule Aediles: Publius Memmius Albucius and Sextus Lucilius
>
> This lex de imperio shall become effective Kal. Ian. MMDCCLXI ‡
> a.u.c. (2008 CE) and shall remain in effect until prid. Kal. Ian. ‡
> MMDCCLXII a.u.c. (2009 CE).
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53575 From: Ugo Coppola Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Oath of office in Latin: linguistic doubt
Publius Constantinus Placidus SPD.

As I am about to post my Oath of Office as Ædilis Plebis, I would like
to solve a slight linguistic doubt I have on the Latin version.
The verb "I accept" corresponds to 'accepto' the first time it appears
in the oath, and 'accipio' the second time. What is the correct Latin
form? Are they both valid?

Optime valete,
P. Con. Placidus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53576 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: Oath of office in Latin: linguistic doubt
> A. Tullia Scholastica P. Constantino Placido quiritibus bonae voluntatis
> S.P.D.
>
>
>
> Publius Constantinus Placidus SPD.
>
> As I am about to post my Oath of Office as Ædilis Plebis, I would like
> to solve a slight linguistic doubt I have on the Latin version.
> The verb "I accept" corresponds to 'accepto' the first time it appears
> in the oath, and 'accipio' the second time. What is the correct Latin
> form? Are they both valid?
>
> ATS: In the first occurrence of this verb, it is a perfect passive
> participle in agreement with officio, in a construction we call the ablative
> absolute. It means (roughly) having accepted the office (of whatever, in your
> case aedilis plebis, which stays the same in the requisite grammatical form).
> In the second instance, it is the first person singular of the present tense,
> meaning I accept. The principal parts of this verb are accipio, accipere,
> accepi, acceptus, so yes, both Latin forms are correct in the oath, but the
> context is different, so they are different.
>
> On the other hand, the imperative plural of ago is agite, NOT agete; ago
> is in the third conjugation, not the second. It would be agete if it were in
> the second conjugation, along with moneo and doceo and other verbs whose first
> principal part ends in -eo.
>
> While we¹re on the topic of Latin: if anyone wants rituals translated,
> there are several very fine Latinists in the sodalitas Latinitatis who are
> fully capable of doing this, but this one is heading her introductory class
> into their midterm exam, and is a tad busy with the 150 messages to the ML
> yesterday, etc. Something quick I could probably do in a couple of weeks,
> however.
>
>
>
> Optime valete,
> P. Con. Placidus
>
> Vale, et valete.
>
>
>
> Messages in this topic
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/53575;
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53577 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: First Saturnalia
Cato L. Iulio Regulo sal.

Salve Iulius Regulus.

That's exactly the same problem I had - not a single statue of Saturn
that I could find anywhere. It's kind of odd. But as I mentioned I
have a bust of Iuppiter on its way.

I'd recommend (even though the title sounds somewhat inappropriate)
"Renaissance Holiday" by Chip Davis, with the London Symphony
Orchestra Strings and Pittsburgh Symphony Brass. They play
instrumental medieval and Renaissance dance music in new and
interesting arrangements. If you don't mind the odd Christian carol
thrown in here and there (only 5 out of the 27 pieces of music) it
might work for you.

Vale,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53578 From: Maior Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: First Saturnalia
-Maior Regulo Catonique sal;
I think this is a perfect time to call Sacred Source and ask
them to make a Saturn statue. Seriously, if they get enough requests
I'm sure they would do it.

As for music there is Synaulia they do period Roman music "Music of
Ancient Rome" You can listen to clips over at Amazon. Or for
something raucous try 'Venus, Vina, Musica' by Corvus Corax. They
have a bagpipey celtic sound.
I like 'New Witch" magazine as they do great music reviews of
pagan music, so helpful;-)

I am really impressed with all that you are doing. Both of
you. I'm happy to have bought Saturnalia cards & wear my 'Io
Saturnalia' button and whip up some mulsum:)
But I'm in a rental, next year, we'll party like it's
MMDCCLXI;-)
> bene vale
Marca Hortensia Maior


> Salve Iulius Regulus.
>
> That's exactly the same problem I had - not a single statue of
Saturn
> that I could find anywhere. It's kind of odd. But as I mentioned
I
> have a bust of Iuppiter on its way.
>
> I'd recommend (even though the title sounds somewhat inappropriate)
> "Renaissance Holiday" by Chip Davis, with the London Symphony
> Orchestra Strings and Pittsburgh Symphony Brass. They play
> instrumental medieval and Renaissance dance music in new and
> interesting arrangements. If you don't mind the odd Christian
carol
> thrown in here and there (only 5 out of the 27 pieces of music) it
> might work for you.
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53579 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Cato L. Quirino Vestae sal.

Salve Quirinus Vesta.

Lucian, a second-century AD Roman writer, wrote this:

"The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day — the
distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was
crucified on that account...You see, these misguided creatures start
with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which
explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are
so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their
original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that
they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the
crucified sage, and live after his laws." - Lucian, The Death of
Peregrine, 11-13 in The Works of Lucian of Samosata, translated by H.
W. Fowler (Oxford: Clarendon, 1949) vol. 4


But one vital thing you seem to have forgotten are the Gospels
(written c. AD 60-100), the Book of Acts (of which Roman historian A.
N. Sherwin-White said, "Any attempt to reject its basic historicity,
even in matters of detail, must now appear absurd"), and the Pauline
Epistles. These are manuscripts written well within even the most
rigorous requirements of critical literary scholarship. In his book
on the subject, Sherwin-White writes:

"...historians reconstruct with confidence the course of Roman and
Greek history. For example, the two earliest biographies of Alexander
the Great were written by Arrian and Plutarch more than 400 years
after Alexander's death, and yet classical historians still consider
them to be trustworthy. The fabulous legends about Alexander the Great
did not develop until during the centuries after these two writers." -
A. N. Sherwin-White, Roman Society and Roman Law in the New Testament
(Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1963), pp. 188-91.

Professor Sherwin-White is not a theologian; he is a professional
historian of times prior to and contemporaneous with Jesus. According
to Sherwin-White, the sources for Roman and Greek history are usually
biased and removed one or two generations or even centuries from the
events they record. Sherwin-White writes that the gap of time between
the death of Jesus and the appearance of the first writings about Him
is much too short for legends to have supplanted the basic historic
facts about His life.

Most critical scholars agree on the dating of the majority of the New
Testament: for the Gospels they tend to date Mark no earlier than AD
65 and no later than 75. Matthew is dated between 70 and 85. Luke is
usually placed within 80 to 95. The earliest of the books of the New
Testament was First Thessalonians, an epistle of Paul, written
probably in 51, or possibly Galatians in 49 according to one of two
theories of its writing. Of the pseudepigraphical epistles, Christian
scholars tend to place them somewhere between 70 and 150, with Second
Peter usually being the latest.

Take a look at this list:

http://www.errantskeptics.org/DatingNT.htm


Michael Grant, one of the most famous Classical scholars alive, wrote:

"...if we apply to the New Testament, as we should, the same sort of
criteria as we should apply to other ancient writings containing
historical material, we can no more reject Jesus' existence than we
can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality
as historical figures is never questioned. To sum up, modern critical
methods fail to support the Christ myth theory. It has 'again and
again been answered and annihilated by first rank scholars.' In recent
years, 'no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non
historicity of Jesus' or at any rate very few, and they have not
succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant,
evidence to the contrary." - Michael Grant, Jesus: An Historian's
Review, pp. 199-200

Vale,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53580 From: deciusiunius Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Recognition of new priesthoods
I, Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus, as a Lictor of Nova Roma, hereby
witness the appointments of Fl. Galerius Aurelianus and Marcus
Moravius Piscinus as Pontifices of Nova Roma. As a member of the
Comitia Curiata, I wish them good fortune in their offices and in their
work on behalf of the Religio Romana.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53581 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: First Saturnalia
Cato M. Hortensiae Maiori sal.

Salve, Marca Hortensia.

Interesting idea. There probably isn't one because no-one really
*thinks* about Saturn very much - Iuppiter has really taken center stage.

Do you have a link for Synaulia?

Vale,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53582 From: deciusiunius Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Conferring of imperium
As a lictor of Nova Roma, I, Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus, vote to
confirm the passing of imperium on to the consuls, praetors and curule
aediles for the coming year. May the Gods guide you.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53583 From: marcushoratius Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: a. d. XIX Kalendas Ianuaris
M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus Quiritibus et omnibus salutem
plurimam dicit: Diis bene iuvantibus simus.

Hodie est ante diem XIX Kalendas Ianuaris; haec dies fastus aterque
est:

"By several days will bad and wintry weather often precede the proper
date to begin that season, as the Greeks say, 'to be an early winter'
(Pliny Nat. Hist. 18.57)."

AUC 389 / 364 BCE: Third Lectisterium and Introduction of Games

"Now let me recall from the beginning the reason why games were
instituted. In the Consulship of C. Sulpicius Peticus and C.
Licinius Stolo a pestilence broke out with insupportable violence,
calling our community away from military activities and crushing it
with care for an internal mischief. And now it appeared that more
help was to be found in a carefully chosen new religious practice
than in any human device. So that people, who hitherto had been
content with the circus show first put on by Romulus under the name
of Consualia after the rape of the Sabine virgins, now lent vacant
ears to poems composed to placate celestial power. But as it is the
way of mankind to follow up small beginnings with zealous
persistence, the young men added to the worshipping words addressed
to the Gods playful gestures with rude and clumsy body movements, and
that gave rise to the summoning of a dancer from Etruria. His
graceful agility, after the ancient manner of Curetes and Lydians
from whom the Tuscans drew their origin, charmed the eyes of Romans
with its welcome novelty; and because a dancer was called "ister" in
Etrurian, the name of "historiones" was given to actors. Gradually
the mimic art made its slow way to the rhythm of saturae, from which
the poet Livius (Andronicus) was the first to draw the minds of
spectators to the themes of plays. He acted his own work and being
frequently recalled by the audience made his voice hoarse, so he
brought a boy and a flute player to make music while he silently went
through the miming. Atellans were introduced from the Oscans. That
form of entertainment was tempered with Italian austerity and so it
is free from censure, the actor being neither expelled from his tribe
nor repulsed from military service." ~ Valerius Maximus 2.4.1-4
(Compare with Livius 7.2)


"Grant me the strength, Goddess, to whom I ask, to whom I pray;
extend your assistance to me." ~ Livius Andronicus, fr. Equos Troianos

"Da mihi hasce opes, quas peto, quas precor porrige opitula."


Our thought for today is from Epictetus' Enchiridion 48

"The condition and characteristic of a vulgar person is that he never
looks for either help or harm from himself, but only from externals.
The condition and characteristic of a philosopher is that he looks to
himself for all help or harm. The marks of a proficient are that he
censures no one, praises no one, blames no one, accuses no one; says
nothing concerning himself as being anybody, or knowing anything.
When he is in any instance hindered or restrained, he accuses
himself; and if he is praised, he smiles to himself at the person who
praises him; and if he is censured, he makes no defence. But he goes
about with the caution of a convalescent, careful of interference
with anything that is doing well, but not yet quite secure. He
restrains desire; he transfers his aversion to those things only
which thwart the proper use of our own will; he employs his energies
moderately in all directions; if he appears stupid or ignorant, he
does not care; and, in a word, he keeps watch over himself as over an
enemy and one in ambush."
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53584 From: Maior Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: First Saturnalia
Salve Cato; please call me Maior, I go by my cognomen.
Saturn is in the same category as Volcanus, but who knows they
could be very popular in our time.
As for Synaulia, go to
http://www.soundcenter.it/synauliaeng.htm

I'd love their Roman Albums, too.
Maior

> Salve, Marca Hortensia.
>
> Interesting idea. There probably isn't one because no-one really
> *thinks* about Saturn very much - Iuppiter has really taken center
stage.
>
> Do you have a link for Synaulia?
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53585 From: marcushoratius Date: 2007-12-13
Subject: Re: First Saturnalia
Salvete

Try this:
http://health.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/Valetudinis/photos/view/4fea?
b=2

This mosaic is generally interpreted as the arrival of Asculapius on
the Insula in the River Tiber at Rome due to the figure on the left
who is dressed like a philosopher. It can also be interpreted as the
arrival of Saturnus at Rome. Supposedly He arrived by boat after
leaving the heavens, which makes sense in its mythical way as
terrestrial rivers were thought to be fed by underground rivers whose
source was in the heavens.

Valete
Piscinus


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Equitius Cato"
<mlcinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> Cato M. Hortensiae Maiori sal.
>
> Salve, Marca Hortensia.
>
> Interesting idea. There probably isn't one because no-one really
> *thinks* about Saturn very much - Iuppiter has really taken center
stage.
>
> Do you have a link for Synaulia?
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53586 From: Lucius Iulius Regulus Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: First Saturnalia
Salve Maior,

I would like to thank you very much for your input on the music advice. I checked out the music and its already on its way. Now I have just about enough music for the celebration. So if anyone else can help out some more, that would be great for all the citizens celebrating Saturnalia. I also think we should all contact Sacred Source and try to get them to make or order in some statues of Saturn in time for the celebration next year. I would like to ask you Maior where did you get your Saturnalia cards from?? If you dont mind me asking. Thanks again and urge all citizens if they have anymore information on how we can better our celebration of Saturnalia to feel free and post.

Lucius Iulius Regulus


----- Original Message ----
From: Maior <rory12001@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 9:47:54 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: First Saturnalia

-Maior Regulo Catonique sal;
I think this is a perfect time to call Sacred Source and ask
them to make a Saturn statue. Seriously, if they get enough requests
I'm sure they would do it.

As for music there is Synaulia they do period Roman music "Music of
Ancient Rome" You can listen to clips over at Amazon. Or for
something raucous try 'Venus, Vina, Musica' by Corvus Corax. They
have a bagpipey celtic sound.
I like 'New Witch" magazine as they do great music reviews of
pagan music, so helpful;-)

I am really impressed with all that you are doing. Both of
you. I'm happy to have bought Saturnalia cards & wear my 'Io
Saturnalia' button and whip up some mulsum:)
But I'm in a rental, next year, we'll party like it's
MMDCCLXI;-)
> bene vale
Marca Hortensia Maior

> Salve Iulius Regulus.
>
> That's exactly the same problem I had - not a single statue of
Saturn
> that I could find anywhere. It's kind of odd. But as I mentioned
I
> have a bust of Iuppiter on its way.
>
> I'd recommend (even though the title sounds somewhat inappropriate)
> "Renaissance Holiday" by Chip Davis, with the London Symphony
> Orchestra Strings and Pittsburgh Symphony Brass. They play
> instrumental medieval and Renaissance dance music in new and
> interesting arrangements. If you don't mind the odd Christian
carol
> thrown in here and there (only 5 out of the 27 pieces of music) it
> might work for you.
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>





____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53587 From: Lucius Iulius Regulus Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: First Saturnalia
Salve Cato,

I would like to thank you for helping out with the music advice, it was great. Now I think I am almost complete with getting music for the celebration to last the whole week. But Im also wondering if it is proper to use a statue of Iuppiter instead of Saturn.....

Thanks Again
Lucius Iulius Regulus


----- Original Message ----
From: Gaius Equitius Cato <mlcinnyc@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 9:27:01 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: First Saturnalia

Cato L. Iulio Regulo sal.

Salve Iulius Regulus.

That's exactly the same problem I had - not a single statue of Saturn
that I could find anywhere. It's kind of odd. But as I mentioned I
have a bust of Iuppiter on its way.

I'd recommend (even though the title sounds somewhat inappropriate)
"Renaissance Holiday" by Chip Davis, with the London Symphony
Orchestra Strings and Pittsburgh Symphony Brass. They play
instrumental medieval and Renaissance dance music in new and
interesting arrangements. If you don't mind the odd Christian carol
thrown in here and there (only 5 out of the 27 pieces of music) it
might work for you.

Vale,

Cato





____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53588 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: First Saturnalia
Agricola Maiori Omnibusque sal.

That is a great idea. When I was scriba to Cato when he was curule
aedile I brought the macellum vendors over to the new wiki page. At
that time I had to contact Sacred Source to update their info. (By the
way, I hope that everyone is familiar with Sacred Source and their
offer to Nova Romans. See the Macellum page it you are not.) They were
very nice people to deal with and it would not surprise me in the
least if they were to respond favorably to suggestions.

Maybe there could be a discussion over on the Religio Romana list
about what people would look for in a Saturn statue.

Optime valete!



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> -Maior Regulo Catonique sal;
> I think this is a perfect time to call Sacred Source and ask
> them to make a Saturn statue. Seriously, if they get enough requests
> I'm sure they would do it.
>
> As for music there is Synaulia they do period Roman music "Music of
> Ancient Rome" You can listen to clips over at Amazon. Or for
> something raucous try 'Venus, Vina, Musica' by Corvus Corax. They
> have a bagpipey celtic sound.
> I like 'New Witch" magazine as they do great music reviews of
> pagan music, so helpful;-)
>
> I am really impressed with all that you are doing. Both of
> you. I'm happy to have bought Saturnalia cards & wear my 'Io
> Saturnalia' button and whip up some mulsum:)
> But I'm in a rental, next year, we'll party like it's
> MMDCCLXI;-)
> > bene vale
> Marca Hortensia Maior
>
>
> > Salve Iulius Regulus.
> >
> > That's exactly the same problem I had - not a single statue of
> Saturn
> > that I could find anywhere. It's kind of odd. But as I mentioned
> I
> > have a bust of Iuppiter on its way.
> >
> > I'd recommend (even though the title sounds somewhat inappropriate)
> > "Renaissance Holiday" by Chip Davis, with the London Symphony
> > Orchestra Strings and Pittsburgh Symphony Brass. They play
> > instrumental medieval and Renaissance dance music in new and
> > interesting arrangements. If you don't mind the odd Christian
> carol
> > thrown in here and there (only 5 out of the 27 pieces of music) it
> > might work for you.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Cato
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53589 From: Adriano Rota Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: First Saturnalia
Salve,
Concerning "Synaulia"
I had dined with Walter Maioli and his crew. A great person and his daughter Luce too.
Unfortunately he has concentrated on the introduction of the anciant roman instruments with his Albums. He focused mainly on the sounds of the instruments. I hope he will work on some real albums which reflect more of the likely music melodics and songs or themes played at the time which can be really listened and which can be used for entertainment.
Is there such music out there I do not know about?

Adriano


----- Original Message ----
From: Maior <rory12001@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 9:47:54 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: First Saturnalia

-Maior Regulo Catonique sal;
I think this is a perfect time to call Sacred Source and ask
them to make a Saturn statue. Seriously, if they get enough requests
I'm sure they would do it.

As for music there is Synaulia they do period Roman music "Music of
Ancient Rome" You can listen to clips over at Amazon. Or for
something raucous try 'Venus, Vina, Musica' by Corvus Corax. They
have a bagpipey celtic sound.
I like 'New Witch" magazine as they do great music reviews of
pagan music, so helpful;-)

I am really impressed with all that you are doing. Both of
you. I'm happy to have bought Saturnalia cards & wear my 'Io
Saturnalia' button and whip up some mulsum:)
But I'm in a rental, next year, we'll party like it's
MMDCCLXI;-)
> bene vale
Marca Hortensia Maior

> Salve Iulius Regulus.
>
> That's exactly the same problem I had - not a single statue of
Saturn
> that I could find anywhere. It's kind of odd. But as I mentioned
I
> have a bust of Iuppiter on its way.
>
> I'd recommend (even though the title sounds somewhat inappropriate)
> "Renaissance Holiday" by Chip Davis, with the London Symphony
> Orchestra Strings and Pittsburgh Symphony Brass. They play
> instrumental medieval and Renaissance dance music in new and
> interesting arrangements. If you don't mind the odd Christian
carol
> thrown in here and there (only 5 out of the 27 pieces of music) it
> might work for you.
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>





____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53590 From: Maior Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: First Saturnalia
Maior Agricola sal;
Sacred Source was so nice when I ordered my penates plaque &
lares & I wanted a special finish. Yes let's discuss it.
Also I just remembered Musica Romana
http://www.musica-romana.de/
http://www.myspace.com/mvsicaromana - clips of music
I gave them the link to the Macellum. We want businesses such as
this and they want us.

Ah, I almost forgot Elvis in Latin..by Dr Ammondt
>http://www.mp3.com/albums/177747/summary.html

Do you really want to spend Saturnalia without it;-)
buying, buying, buying it

and best of all my source for Saturnalia Cards and Buttons;
Domus Lucretia aka Agricola..:)
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Macellum_%28Nova_Roma%29
valete omnes
Maior
> Agricola Maiori Omnibusque sal.
>
> That is a great idea. When I was scriba to Cato when he was curule
> aedile I brought the macellum vendors over to the new wiki page. At
> that time I had to contact Sacred Source to update their info. (By
the
> way, I hope that everyone is familiar with Sacred Source and their
> offer to Nova Romans. See the Macellum page it you are not.) They
were
> very nice people to deal with and it would not surprise me in the
> least if they were to respond favorably to suggestions.
>
> Maybe there could be a discussion over on the Religio Romana list
> about what people would look for in a Saturn statue.
>
> Optime valete!
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@> wrote:
> >
> > -Maior Regulo Catonique sal;
> > I think this is a perfect time to call Sacred Source and ask
> > them to make a Saturn statue. Seriously, if they get enough
requests
> > I'm sure they would do it.
> >
> > As for music there is Synaulia they do period Roman music "Music
of
> > Ancient Rome" You can listen to clips over at Amazon. Or for
> > something raucous try 'Venus, Vina, Musica' by Corvus Corax.
They
> > have a bagpipey celtic sound.
> > I like 'New Witch" magazine as they do great music reviews
of
> > pagan music, so helpful;-)
> >
> > I am really impressed with all that you are doing. Both
of
> > you. I'm happy to have bought Saturnalia cards & wear my 'Io
> > Saturnalia' button and whip up some mulsum:)
> > But I'm in a rental, next year, we'll party like it's
> > MMDCCLXI;-)
> > > bene vale
> > Marca Hortensia Maior
> >
> >
> > > Salve Iulius Regulus.
> > >
> > > That's exactly the same problem I had - not a single statue of
> > Saturn
> > > that I could find anywhere. It's kind of odd. But as I
mentioned
> > I
> > > have a bust of Iuppiter on its way.
> > >
> > > I'd recommend (even though the title sounds somewhat
inappropriate)
> > > "Renaissance Holiday" by Chip Davis, with the London Symphony
> > > Orchestra Strings and Pittsburgh Symphony Brass. They play
> > > instrumental medieval and Renaissance dance music in new and
> > > interesting arrangements. If you don't mind the odd Christian
> > carol
> > > thrown in here and there (only 5 out of the 27 pieces of
music) it
> > > might work for you.
> > >
> > > Vale,
> > >
> > > Cato
> > >
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53591 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: First Saturnalia--The God in the Sickle.
Aurelianus Iulio Regulo sal.

There are two reasonable ways to represent Saturn during the Saturnalia.
One is to obtain an image of a druid holding a sickle. The other is to place a
small sickle (grass cutter type) on your altar or your lararium.
When Saturn overthrew Ouranus he did so with a flint sickle provided to him
by Tellus. If you look at the representative symbol for Saturn, it is easy
to see it is a sickle.

The Romans took to the use of sacred statues slowly since the numina were
formless spirits that manifested themselves in natural phenomena or attributes.
Before the worship of Di Consentes gained Their accendancy in the Sacra
Publica of the Religio Romana, there were Di Indigetes, Di Penates, Di Nixi, Di
Inferni, and Di Manes.

Ceres is the Goddess in the Grain. Vesta is the Goddess in the Domestic
Flame. Vulcan is the God in Destructive Fire. Saturn is the God in the Sickle.
Iuppiter is the God in the Lightning (Fulgator), Rain (Pluvius), Sacred
Oaths (Dius Fidus). Fornax in the Oven, Copia in the Cornucopia (the horn of
Copia), Pilumnus in the Grindstone, Cardea in the Hinges, Mellona in the Honey,
Pomona in the Pruning Knife, Summanus in the Nocturnal Lightning.

Vale.







**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53592 From: marcus_hirtius_ahenobarbus Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: "Jesus never existed." STOP PLZ!
Salvete,

This "Jesus never existed" thread is simply ridiculous.

The original post wasn't really worth responding to, in my opinion.

A lot of the arguements being made are....how do I put
this.......well, they suck. I think that says it pretty well.

No one here who believes Jesus Christ never existed is going to
change their mind. No amount of evidence or well written statements
will change that.

Likewise those who believe that Jesus Christ did exist will not
change their minds.

I'm sure that some of you have some evidence you think will really
make the case for your "side" but it is useless. An exercise in
futility. I suggest you just keep it to yourself.


This is all counter-productive, and to be honest I can not stomach
it anymore. Whether it ends or not I will ignore it.

I am not the first person to say this "Jesus never existed" stuff
should stop. I hope I will be the last.

Obviously you all can do as you wish. But why...why continue? Is
continuing this going to further the cause of Nova Roma?


I request that those involved please let the "Jesus never existed"
thread die.


Valete,

M. Hirtius Ahenobarbus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53593 From: Patrick D. Owen Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Saturnalia Practices of Nova Romans
Fl. Galerius Aurelianus Pontifex S.P.D.

Saturnalia falls at the time when non-Romans are celebrating
Christmas, Hanukkah, Solstice and/or Kwanzaa. In Nova Roma,
individual Citizens have chosen different approaches to the challenge
of celebrating in the spirit of Rome without cutting themselves off
from the culture in which they live. This page is a compilation of
Saturnalia celebrations reported by Nova Romans:

First, a little history by Flavia Claudia Juliana:
Saturnalia festivities began with ritual and sacrifices in the Temple
of Saturn. The statue of the god was hollow and filled with olive
oil, as a symbol of his agricultural functions. His feet were bound
with woolen strips, that were unbound at Saturnalia.
After the rituals, the Senators (who had to be present) dismissed the
crowd with the cry of "Io, Saturnalia!", a sign for the happy
festivities of family parties and other private gatherings to begin.
The traditional gifts were wax tapers and little dolls, although
gifts of silver later became traditional.
The custom of the Lord of Misrule was appropriated and survived
through to English Christmas traditions.

Roman decorations and celebrations by Secunda Floria Zonara:
Many of the decorations involved greenery - swathes, garlands,
wreaths, etc - being hung over doorways and windows, and ornamenting
stairs. Ornaments in the trees included sun symbols, stars, and faces
of the God Janus. Trees were not brought indoors (the Germans started
that tradition), but decorated where they grew.
Food was also a primary decoration - gilded cakes in a variety of
shapes were quite popular, and children and birds vied for the
privilege of denuding the trees of their treats. The commonest shapes
were fertility symbols, suns and moons and stars, baby shapes, and
herd animal shapes (although, to be honest, it's hard to tell if some
of those ancient cookie cutters are supposed to be goats or deer). I
would imagine coins were also a popular decoration/gift.
People were just as likely to be ornamented as the trees. Wearing
greenery and jewelry of a sacred nature was apparently common, based
on descriptions, drawings, and the like from the era. Although the
emphasis was on Saturn, Sol Invictus got a fair share of the revelry
as well.
Gold, because the sun is yellow, is always a sure choice for a good
Saturnalia decoration. For modern Saturnalia, those golden glass ball
ornaments are ideal, as are gold sun faces, gold stars, and gilded
anythings. Gilding nuts and pine cones and nestling them among the
swags and wreaths of greenery would be a lovely way of acknowledging
the ancient roots of this ceremony.
Indoor trees are not ancient Roman, but if you have plants growing
indoors, decorating them would certainly be in the spirit of the
holidays. If you just have to have the now-traditional indoor tree,
try decorating it in gold ornaments with a solar theme. Swathe it in
bright red or purple ribbons (2 colors quite in favor with the
Romans, and looks great with the gold ornaments). Top the tree with a
sun, rather than a star, for after all, this is a solar celebration.
The biggest part of Saturnalia was attitude more than decoration.
Feasting, drunkenness, merrymaking, hopefully the conception of more
children (or at least enjoying those activities which led to
conception!), pranks, gift giving, role reversals (not true ones,
only symbolic ones - slaves weren't really free to make a freedman's
decisions and anything they did or decreed would reverse at the end
of Saturnalia, children weren't really adults and could not enter
into any binding contracts or make business deals, etc.) and so
forth.
The role reversals seemed to be more for minor privileges - slaves
and children got to be waited on for meals, and to lead the rituals,
and to participate in the revelry as if they were their
parents/masters. The parents/masters jokingly played the part of
slaves and children by waiting on them and making rude and bawdy
jokes at their expense. Sometimes, it descended into cruelty.
On a modern note - wild parties with lots of food and drink is good.
Letting the children of the household lead the common rituals, and
waiting on them (assuming you don't do so in everyday
circumstances....) at mealtimes, and deferring to them in decisions
on party ideas would work for role reversals.
No children in the house? Maybe you can borrow one for a day. We
don't have slaves, but, for a nice touch of role reversal, we could
purchase the services of a nanny or a housekeeper for the duration of
Saturnalia. It would be a role reversal of sorts, for instead of
being the slave of your home, someone else would be doing the chores
and cooking and childcare while you got to party down!
Dancing and singing in the streets is now frowned upon, unless you
can get a parade permit. A parade, if you could organize it, would be
fun. Imagine - giant floats of the Gods tended by the priests and
acolytes, musicians and dancers, contortionists to amaze and delight,
acrobats and jugglers, all in honor of Saturn!

Dog's world turned upside-down by Damianus Lucianus Dexippus:
Since the festival runs for seven days, I plan to do something wild
on each day. Unfortunately I have to work, but I plan on spreading
good cheer throughout the office by wearing loud clothes (well...more
loud than usual) and a different Renaissance hat each day (have lots
from the Ren Fairres). I usually feed my dog after I have had
dinner...so during that week, little Artemis will receive her food
first.
Oh, and I'm trying to work in an orgy ...

Bacchus and books by Quintus Fabius Maximus:
Since most of my friends know I'm a Roman Historian, I got:
"The World of Josephus"
"Beyond the Inhabited World. Life beyond the Limes."
"Caesar against the Celts"
"War and Imperialism in Republican Rome."
"Training the Roman Cavalry"
"Soldier and Civilian in the Later Roman Empire."
"Agricola and Roman Britain"
I also got some Byzantine books and Xenophon's novel "Cyropaedia"
(Life of Cyrus the Great.)
Friends who came to my party brought not one, not two, but 3
Bacchuses!! Statues, that is. I also got a HUGE plaque of the Forum
in relief, 62" x 40" as a gift.

Saturnalia with a little girl by Amethystia Iunia Crystallina:
You'll have to forgive me, but this is really the first Saturnalia
that I have either *cared* about or been allowed to do what I wanted
for the Saturnalia. I am just so excited I am probably going to go
nuts and share every minute.
Last night I got things ready for this first Saturnalia morning. I
gave the house special attention in cleaning and went into the kids'
(I think of it as 'their' room, even though Lapis will not be born
until February and both of them will be sleeping with me, for a while
anyway) playroom closet to pick out the gift Terry would get this
morning. I decided on her dry-erase board and markers from me and the
puzzle book my mother sent for her.
I put the board and the markers out, kept the puzzle book apart, so
she wouldn't get overwhelmed and tried to sleep. Terry woke me at 8
with her usual happy talk and demands for juice. She got out of bed
and drank and wandered into the living room, where she discovered her
present. She drew on the board and herself (I showed her how to draw
on the board, she showed herself the other). I brought out the puzzle
book, and showed her how it worked. She is having the time of her
little life, which is all the gift I could ever want!
We aren't rich, but I wanted *her* to feel rich, if only for one week.
Friday, the second day of Saturnalia, brought Terry her talking
Winnie the Pooh book. She liked it so much I had to pack it in the
diaper bag when we went to the senior center. I dressed her in winter
white -- a pair of pants and a nice top all winter white with a sort
of leafy pattern in gold on it. I put her hair in a pony tail and
tied it with a scrap of golden material I made into a nice hair
ribbon.
Terry was a wonderful hit at the senior center!! She walked to every
table and looked and smiled at everyone. I think this will be a nice
tradition for us every year. The local eighth-graders came to sing
carols to the seniors and Terry looked with rapt attention as they
sang. She, as usual, fought her nap (but she was surrounded by her
subjects, allplaying Hail Toddler, so it is sort of understandable)...
Out of 9 days, Terry receives presents on 8 (must be nice, huh?).

Relinquishing the boss's role by Quintus Fabius:
Tomorrow and Friday, Bandwagon Productions will be run by the
assistants. Hopefully, we will lose no major deals because of this.
However, my assistants love this holiday now. Monday I have a big
meeting, so it's only for two days, this year. My partners think I am
crazy.

Red and gold by Mia:
We've decorated everything in red and gold, since we pretty much
celebrate this as a strictly and directly solar holiday. We have a
gold star at the top of our tree-wannabe, but we reason that the sun
is, after all, a star, and it was a good $5 cheaper than the sunburst-
style tree topper. It all seems to fit nicely into the Saturnalia
theme too.
My husband is all in favor of getting some wine and starting
Saturnalia out on the right foot... I am more in favor of him taking
me out to a restaurant.

Circle of Saturn by Damianus Lucianus Dexippus:
As the Muse would have it, I was sitting around thinking of a way to
acknowledge each of the days of the Saturnalia festival. Being of the
modern age with our Pagan-unfriendly bosses making us work during
this Festive Holiday and scrambling to buy gifts for both Pagan and
non-Pagan friends and family, how can we take a few moments to honor
each day of the Saturnalia, whether or not we plan festivities for
the whole week?
Well...I came up with this. I went to the store after work and bought
seven small candleholders. (The ones I bought are real seasonal. They
are made of brass with little pine-cones, holly berries, and red
ribbons tied around them). I also bought seven red candles. When I
got home, I placed some pine branches (yes...left over from the Yule
Log decorations) on my permanent altar where I do my meditations and
prayers. Then I encircled the seven candle holders around the center
of the altar.
Each day I plan to offer a prayer to Saturnus and Ops and light a
candle for that day's festivities. It's kinda like a Pagan Menorah.
At the end of the seven days, the Circle of Saturn will be completely
ablaze.

Life, death and a Yule log by Damianus Lucianus Dexippus:
I went to one of the Tree Butcheries and asked for one of the trunks
they may have cut off to size it for the picky families. It's a nice
size log. So I brought it home and placed it on a bed of pine
branches (also taken from the butchery). I adhered three candles to
the log (one white, one red, and one green) to symbolize the cycle of
life, death, and rebirth. I decorated the log and branches with red
beads and lights.
This is my Yule Log. Without a fire place to burn it traditionally, I
thought the candles made an acceptable Neo-Pagan adaption. I'm
planning a small ritual on December 22 where I will light the candles
to remind me of the Sun's rebirth (white candle) and the promise of
new beginnings and hope in the new year, the fulfillment of oaths and
deeds during the year (the red candle...symbolizing the Sun at its
zenith), and the time of meditation and contemplation (the green
candle ...symbolizing the Sun at its rest, its return to the
underworld).

Welcoming door by Marcus Minucius Audens:
As I understand it, most of the Saturnalia decorations are very much
up to you (and your pocketbook) and a logical outlook on the season.
The Yule Log, the tree, ornanments and decorations that today's
Christians use were brought from elsewhere and are acceptable (except
maybe for the angel at the top of the tree). Candles and candle
decorations with bright colors, ribbons or strips of brightly colored
cloth hung in decorative shapes. Decorative hangings and festive
table decorations were well thought of. Don't forget the family
shrine or gods, offerings of cakes and wine should be made and the
decorations here should also reflect your house decorations.
Candles in the windows are supposed to be a New England idea, but I
suspect that a candle(s) in the portico were used as luminaria are
used many places today. Home made dishs of flower petals and buds
with lingering aroma, put a pan of apple juice / cider on the stove
to heat gently and use apple pie spice in the juice to give the house
a wonderful odor. (Falernian wine heavily spiced is veryyyyyy good
too.) I'm sure a half dozen of Venator's "Fire Cherries" will make
you think more clearly than ever before (but reserve time for a nap
later).
The house should be warm, with warm blankets or comforters at
convenient places, and should smell good and should reflect your own
festive ideas. When things all come together. You will "feel" that it
is right. I like "one color themes" where blue, or red or silver
predominate in a window scene or the decoration of a door.
One prominent door in my house is the "Greeting Door" where all the
greetiings of Saturnalia are placed. Little incense cones burning at
the shrine or in small decorative dishes around the house help with
good smells. Evergreen and bright berries like holly and mistletoe,
as well as any plants or trees in your area that smells or looks
good. Our laurel here in Connecticut stays green all year and can be
made into a nice decoration. Colored paper cut into nice designs can
be used.
Don't forget the cookies and sweetbreads either, and try to make time
to bake something every day. Most important is the enjoyment. You
must schedule a time for just sitting and enjoying your decorated
place be it a castle or a cave or anything in between, You should be
the one to enjoy your creation the most.

Something new, Always interesting by Fl. Galerius Aurelianus:
This Saturday (Dec. 15) I will be off to the home of my kinswoman,
Mania Galeria Corvina, and will visit with all the pagani here in
northern Austrorientalis. I will take some good things to eat and
drink to share with them all. Golden candles, oil lamps, and such
for the adults; silver and gold coins for the children. They plan
the rites, I get to sit back and enjoy the surprises. Let the revels
begin. Io Saturnalia!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53594 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: Saturnalia Practices of Nova Romans
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick D. Owen" <Patrick.Owen@...>
wrote:
>
> Fl. Galerius Aurelianus Pontifex S.P.D.
>
> Saturnalia falls at the time when non-Romans are celebrating
> Christmas, Hanukkah, Solstice and/or Kwanzaa. In Nova Roma,
> individual Citizens have chosen different approaches to the challenge
> of celebrating in the spirit of Rome without cutting themselves off
> from the culture in which they live. This page is a compilation of
> Saturnalia celebrations reported by Nova Romans:
>
[SNIP]

That page can be found here:
http://novaroma.org/nr/Saturnalia_%28Nova_Roma%29

I hope citizens will continue to add to it.

Optime valete

Agricola
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53595 From: GAIVS IVLIANVS Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: First Saturnalia
Salvete Luci et Omnes! I hope many will be wearing the
red Pileus or Freedmans cap for the Saturnalia as I
certainly will!!! IO SATVRNALIA! BONA SATVRNALIA!
Gaivs Ivlianvs
--- Lucius Iulius Regulus <luciusjul25@...>
wrote:

> Salve Maior,
>
> I would like to thank you very much for your input
> on the music advice. I checked out the music and its
> already on its way. Now I have just about enough
> music for the celebration. So if anyone else can
> help out some more, that would be great for all the
> citizens celebrating Saturnalia. I also think we
> should all contact Sacred Source and try to get them
> to make or order in some statues of Saturn in time
> for the celebration next year. I would like to ask
> you Maior where did you get your Saturnalia cards
> from?? If you dont mind me asking. Thanks again and
> urge all citizens if they have anymore information
> on how we can better our celebration of Saturnalia
> to feel free and post.
>
> Lucius Iulius Regulus
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Maior <rory12001@...>
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 9:47:54 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: First Saturnalia
>
> -Maior Regulo Catonique sal;
> I think this is a perfect time to call Sacred Source
> and ask
> them to make a Saturn statue. Seriously, if they get
> enough requests
> I'm sure they would do it.
>
> As for music there is Synaulia they do period Roman
> music "Music of
> Ancient Rome" You can listen to clips over at
> Amazon. Or for
> something raucous try 'Venus, Vina, Musica' by
> Corvus Corax. They
> have a bagpipey celtic sound.
> I like 'New Witch" magazine as they do great music
> reviews of
> pagan music, so helpful;-)
>
> I am really impressed with all that you are doing.
> Both of
> you. I'm happy to have bought Saturnalia cards &
> wear my 'Io
> Saturnalia' button and whip up some mulsum:)
> But I'm in a rental, next year, we'll party like
> it's
> MMDCCLXI;-)
> > bene vale
> Marca Hortensia Maior
>
> > Salve Iulius Regulus.
> >
> > That's exactly the same problem I had - not a
> single statue of
> Saturn
> > that I could find anywhere. It's kind of odd. But
> as I mentioned
> I
> > have a bust of Iuppiter on its way.
> >
> > I'd recommend (even though the title sounds
> somewhat inappropriate)
> > "Renaissance Holiday" by Chip Davis, with the
> London Symphony
> > Orchestra Strings and Pittsburgh Symphony Brass.
> They play
> > instrumental medieval and Renaissance dance music
> in new and
> > interesting arrangements. If you don't mind the
> odd Christian
> carol
> > thrown in here and there (only 5 out of the 27
> pieces of music) it
> > might work for you.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Cato
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>



____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53596 From: Lucius Quirinus Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Salve Pius


far from me any desire or will to ridiculize
anyone...I am only trying to exchange views, Ideas and
facts.

The criteria I follow is to use what our GOD/S has
given us: the brain and rationality. My reasoning is
based on facts and Science.

VALE
LVCIVS Q. VESTA


--- Kristoffer From <from@...> ha scritto:

> Lucius Quirinus wrote:
> > with all my respect for people who have different
> > ideas, I think that, in general, the firm belief
> in
> > something without having any pertinent solid
> evidence
> > sounds like idiocy.
>
> Salve, Luci Quirine Vesta.
>
> Well, I have never actually SEEN any evidence that
> the world is round,
> at least none that could not have been falsified.
> Images are easy to
> manipulate, particularly these days. I have,
> however, heard several
> theories of how the universe in general and our
> solar system in
> particular works - which, given the comparatively
> few observations I
> have made myself, seems to fit the evidence.
>
> However, I am not enough of an empirical scientist
> to demand actual hard
> evidence or seek it out for myself - I am willing to
> accept the
> testimonies of astronomers, astronauts and real
> scientists. I believe
> that the world is round, based on their hearsay.
>
> Is that idiocy on my part, or just some slight trace
> of willingness to
> compromise? Some basic faith in my fellow humans and
> their lack of
> desire to continuously deceive me?
>
> I am Christian by birth, confirmed as a protestant,
> consider myself an
> atheist and rationalist foremost, yet I perform some
> basic rites of the
> religio on behalf of provincia Thules.
>
> Man is, by his very nature, not a rational creature.
> Do not expect, much
> less demand, complete accountability in all parts of
> man's convictions.
> Rejoice when you actually encounter it, should you
> ever do so.
>
> Meanwhile, both you and others will feel better if
> you refrain from
> quite so openly ridiculing their belief systems, no
> matter how worthy of
> ridicule you may find them.
>
> Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.
>



___________________________________
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53597 From: Marcus Iulius Perusianus Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Seven wonders of the Roman world: vote ends!
avete omnes,

we're just one day away to the end of our survey regardin The Seven
Wonders of the Roman World

(last day is 15 dicember 2007). You can still make or modify your
choice for 7 monuments among

the following fifty options:

1.Amphiteatheater Flavius, also called Colosseum, in Rome
2.Amphiteatheater in Pollenzo, Italy
3.Amphiteatheater in Sabratha, Libia
4.Arch of Titus in Rome
5.Arch of Constantine in Rome
6.Arch of Septimius Severus in Leptis Magna, Libia
7.Aqueduct of Appius Claudius in Rome
8.Aqueduct-bridge Du Gard, France
9.Aqueduct of Segovia, Spain
10.Ara Pacis in Rome
11.Basilica of Massentius in Rome
12.Library of Celso in Ephesus, Turkey
13.Circus of Massentius in Rome
14.Circus Maximus in Rome
15.Complex Sanctuary of Fortuna Primigenia in Palestrina, Rome
16.Curia Iulia at the Roman Forum, Rome
17.Domus Aurea in Rome
18.Insula called of the Thermopolium in Ostia, Rome
19.Insulacalled of Diana in Ostia, Rome
20.Hippodromes and Domus Augustana on the Palatine hill, Rome
21.Mausoleum of Plauti in Tivoli, Rome
22.Mausoleum of Hadrian, today Castel Sant'Angelo, Rome
23.Mausoleum of Augustus in Rome
24.Trajan Markets in Rome
25.Aurelian Walls in Rome(by Via delle Mura Latine)

(vote among these first 25 monuments can be made going to the address

http://it.groups.yahoo.com/group/NR_Italia/surveys?id=12675866 )

26.Servian Walls in Rome(by Termini railway station)
27.Pantheon in Rome
28.Piscina Mirabilis in Bacoli, NA
29.Bridge Elio (detto "of Castel Sant'Angelo) in Rome
30.Bridge Fonnaia a Massa Martana, Italy
31.Bridge of Tiberio a Rimini
32.Gate of Mitridas in Ephesus, Turkey
33.Porta Nigra in Treur, Germany
34.Porta Palatina in Turin, Italy
35.Ports of Claudius and Trajan in Fiumicino (Rome)
36.Roman road in Donnes, Italy
37.Roman Theatre of Benevagienna, Italy
38.Roman Theatre of Orange, France
39.Roman Theatre of Verona, Italy
40.Temple of Augustus and Livia in Vienne, France
41.Temple of Clitumnus, at the "fonti del Clitumno", Italy
42.Temple of Diana in Nimes, France
43.Bath of Caracalla in Rome
44.Bath of Diocletian in Rome
45.Hadrian Wall, United Kingdom
46.Via Appia at III mile in Rome
47.Via Appia at IV-V mile in Rome
48.Villa of Hadrian and its Canopo in Tivoli, Rome
49.Villa of Misteri in Pompei, Italy
50.Villa of Quintili in Rome

(vote among these second 25 monuments can be made going to the address

http://it.groups.yahoo.com/group/NR_Italia/surveys?id=12675866 )

N.B. si tratta di due sondaggi differenti poichè Yahoo! permette solo
elenchi con massimo 25

scelte). Vi ricordo che per votare dovete essere iscritti al gruppo
NR_Italia@yahoogroups.com di

Yahoo! (per l'iscrizione basta inviare una email a
NR_Italia-subscribe@yahoogroups.com e seguire

le istruzioni).

you choose!

M IVL PERVSIANVS
Associazione Pomerium


------------------------------------------

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Marcus Iulius Perusianus"
<peraznanie@...> wrote:
>
> Here you are, time for voting!
> Starting today and until December 15th 2007 you can vote among all the
> chosen monuments in the
>
> past days.
>
> This is the list
>
> 1.Amphiteatheater Flavius, also called Colosseum, in Rome
> 2.Amphiteatheater in Pollenzo, Italy
> 3.Amphiteatheater in Sabratha, Libia
> 4.Arch of Titus in Rome
> 5.Arch of Constantine in Rome
> 6.Arch of Septimius Severus in Leptis Magna, Libia
> 7.Aqueduct of Appius Claudius in Rome
> 8.Aqueduct-bridge Du Gard, France
> 9.Aqueduct of Segovia, Spain
> 10.Ara Pacis in Rome
> 11.Basilica of Massentius in Rome
> 12.Library of Celso in Ephesus, Turkey
> 13.Circus of Massentius in Rome
> 14.Circus Maximus in Rome
> 15.Complex Sanctuary of Fortuna Primigenia in Palestrina, Rome
> 16.Curia Iulia at the Roman Forum, Rome
> 17.Domus Aurea in Rome
> 18.Insula called of the Thermopolium in Ostia, Rome
> 19.Insulacalled of Diana in Ostia, Rome
> 20.Hippodromes and Domus Augustana on the Palatine hill, Rome
> 21.Mausoleum of Plauti in Tivoli, Rome
> 22.Mausoleum of Hadrian, today Castel Sant'Angelo, Rome
> 23.Mausoleum of Augustus in Rome
> 24.Trajan Markets in Rome
> 25.Aurelian Walls in Rome(by Via delle Mura Latine)
>
> 26.Servian Walls in Rome(by Termini railway station)
> 27.Pantheon in Rome
> 28.Piscina Mirabilis in Bacoli, NA
> 29.Bridge Elio (detto "of Castel Sant'Angelo) in Rome
> 30.Bridge Fonnaia a Massa Martana, Italy
> 31.Bridge of Tiberio a Rimini
> 32.Gate of Mitridas in Ephesus, Turkey
> 33.Porta Nigra in Treur, Germany
> 34.Porta Palatina in Turin, Italy
> 35.Ports of Claudius and Trajan in Fiumicino (Rome)
> 36.Roman road in Donnes, Italy
> 37.Roman Theatre of Benevagienna, Italy
> 38.Roman Theatre of Orange, France
> 39.Roman Theatre of Verona, Italy
> 40.Temple of Augustus and Livia in Vienne, France
> 41.Temple of Clitumnus, at the "fonti del Clitumno", Italy
> 42.Temple of Diana in Nimes, France
> 43.Bath of Caracalla in Rome
> 44.Bath of Diocletian in Rome
> 45.Hadrian Wall, United Kingdom
> 46.Via Appia at III mile in Rome
> 47.Via Appia at IV-V mile in Rome
> 48.Villa of Hadrian and its Canopo in Tivoli, Rome
> 49.Villa of Misteri in Pompei, Italy
> 50.Villa of Quintili in Rome
>
> To these addresses you'll find these lists where you can vote with
> your seven options (we have
>
> two lists as Yahoo! only allows 25 choices):
>
> http://it.groups.yahoo.com/group/NR_Italia/surveys?id=12675866
> and
> http://it.groups.yahoo.com/group/NR_Italia/surveys?id=12675882
>
> To vote you have to be subscribed to NR_Italia@yahoogroups.com Yahoo!
> group (NB. to subscribe
>
> just send an email to NR_Italia-subscribe@yahoogroups.com and just
> follow the ofrections please).
>
> So, let's begin
>
> Ass.Pomerium
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53598 From: Ugo Coppola Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Publius Constantinus Placidus: Oath of office (tri-lingual)
Salvete, Quirites!

(Latin)

Ego, Publius Constantinus Placidus (Ugo Coppola), hac re ipsa decus
Novæ Romæ me defensurum, et semper pro populo senatuque Novæ Romæ
acturum esse sollemniter IVRO.

Ego, Publius Constantinus Placidus (Ugo Coppola), officio Ædili Plebis
Novæ Romæ accepto, deos deasque Romæ in omnibus meæ vitæ publicæ
temporibus culturum, et virtutes Romanas publica privataque vita me
persecuturum esse IVRO.

Ego, Publius Constantinus Placidus (Ugo Coppola), Religioni Romanæ me
fauturum et eam defensurum, et numquam contra eius statum publicum me
acturum esse, ne quid detrimenti capiat IVRO.

Ego, Publius Constantinus Placidus (Ugo Coppola), officiis muneris
Ædili Plebis me quam optime functurum esse præterea IVRO.

Meo civis Novæ Romæ honore, coram deis deabusque populi Romani, et
voluntate favoreque eorum, ego munus ædile plebis una cum iuribus,
privilegiis, muneribus et officiis comitantibus ACCIPIO.

Ante diem XIX Kal Ian MMDCCLX AUC L. Arminio Ti. Galerio cos.

(English)

I, Publius Constantinus Placidus (Ugo Coppola), do hereby solemnly
swear to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best
interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

I, Publius Constantinus Placidus (Ugo Coppola), accepting the office
of Ædilis Plebis, swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my
public dealings, and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and
private life.

I, Publius Constantinus Placidus (Ugo Coppola), swear to uphold and
defend the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear
never to act in a way that would threaten its status as the State
Religion.

I, Publius Constantinus Placidus (Ugo Coppola), swear to protect and
defend the Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Publius Constantinus Placidus (Ugo Coppola), further swear to
fulfill the obligations and responsibilities of the office of Ædilis
Plebis to the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the Gods
and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do I
accept the position of Ædilis Plebis and all the rights, privileges,
obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.

The 14th of December 2760 AUC / 2007 in the consulship of L. Arminius
Faustus and Ti. Galerius Paulinus.

(Italian)

Io, Publius Constantinus Placidus (Ugo Coppola), GIURO solennemente di
sostenere l'onore di Nova Roma e di agire sempre nell'interesse del
popolo e del Senato di Nova Roma.

Io, Publius Constantinus Placidus (Ugo Coppola), nell'atto di
accettare la carica di Edile Plebeo, GIURO di onorare gli Dei e le Dee
di Roma nelle mie attività pubbliche, e di perseguire le virtù romane
nella mia vita pubblica e privata.

Io, Publius Constantinus Placidus (Ugo Coppola), GIURO di sostenere e
difendere la Religio Romana come Religione di Stato di Nova Roma e
giuro di non agire mai in alcun modo che possa essere di detrimento
alla sua condizione di Religione di Stato.

Io, Publius Constantinus Placidus (Ugo Coppola), GIURO di proteggere e
difendere la Costituzione di Nova Roma.

Io, Publius Constantinus Placidus (Ugo Coppola), GIURO altresì di
adempiere al meglio agli obblighi ed alle responsabilità della carica
di Edile Plebeo.

Sul mio onore come Cittadino di Nova Roma, ed alla presenza degli Dei
e delle Dee del popolo romano e per loro volere e favore, ACCETTO la
posizione di Edile Plebeo e tutti i diritti, i privilegi, gli obblighi
e le responsabilità ad essa afferenti.

Addì 14 dicembre 2760 AUC / 2007, sotto il consolato di L. Arminius
Faustus e Ti. Galerius Paulinus.

Optime valete,
Publius Constantinus Placidus
Ædilis Plebis Novæ Romæ
Scriba Censoris KFBM
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53599 From: Lucius Quirinus Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Salve Cato

Yes, we have some evidence that 200 YEARS(SECOND
CENTURY A.D.)after "Christ" purported existence
...Christians were "misguided creatures"...followers
of a "man" that(THEY SAY) was crucified...etc.

It is all about Christians, not about Mr. Jesus
Christ, his life and his deeds.

Gospels..?? If you read them carefully they
contraddict themselves often; in any case, they were
written at least one century AFTER the hypotetical
"Jesus Christ" life; Paulus of Tarsus never met him,
incidentally.

In addition, the "earliest complete Christian Bibles,
all in Greek, date from the 4th to the 5th centuries"
this is what Mr. Souren Melikian writes in an article
page 11 , International Herald Tribune Dec 9-10, 2006.

It means that what the Church say are "True" Gospels
tell us something happened at least 400 years before.

And, I believe, rationally, what is written on a book
must be double-triple checked with other texts/facts/
before saying it is true.

Do we (NOVA) ROMAN CITIZENS believe, for example, that
Romolus, the founder of ROMA and of our Civilization
was, as written in our hystory books and as our
ancestors firmly believed, son of a Virgin and of a
God(Mars) and that after he died he ascended to heaven
as a God ?

Do you believe that Prophet Mohammed, as written in
the Holy Kuran, was infact flown to Jerusalem by a
flock of Angels?

VALE OPTIME
LVCIVS Q. VESTA

--- Gaius Equitius Cato <mlcinnyc@...> ha
scritto:

> Cato L. Quirino Vestae sal.
>
> Salve Quirinus Vesta.
>
> Lucian, a second-century AD Roman writer, wrote
> this:
>
> "The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day
> — the
> distinguished personage who introduced their novel
> rites, and was
> crucified on that account...You see, these misguided
> creatures start
> with the general conviction that they are immortal
> for all time, which
> explains the contempt of death and voluntary
> self-devotion which are
> so common among them; and then it was impressed on
> them by their
> original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from
> the moment that
> they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and
> worship the
> crucified sage, and live after his laws." - Lucian,
> The Death of
> Peregrine, 11-13 in The Works of Lucian of Samosata,
> translated by H.
> W. Fowler (Oxford: Clarendon, 1949) vol. 4



___________________________________
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53600 From: Maior Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Maior Vestae spd;
I agree with Lucius Quirinus, that we are educated people and can
discuss history and or the lack thereof.

Epicurus, lived around 300 B.C. and there are fragments of his
writings and comments by independent witnesses that he lived. The
same for Aristotle and Plato.

There is no independent historical or archeological evidence for
Moses, David or Solomon. Or even Romulus, a cave has been discovered
in Rome but no writing or other evidence yet exists.

I am reading a very interesting book about Diogenes of Oenoanda. He
lived in Asia Minor around the time of Hadrian , mid 2nd Century
A.D. and set up an enormous wall of epicurean inscriptions. So the
towns people and barbarians, could free themselves of fear and
superstition. Here are pictures
http://www.anchist.mq.edu.au/272/Diogenes%20of%20Oenoanda.html

And here is a link http://www.epicurus.net/en/resources.html
I think it is very important to have rational discussions, so we can
free ourselves from fear of the gods, hells and all superstitions. I
fine Epicurean philosophy much to my taste.
bene vale in pacem deorum
Marca Hortensia Maior

>
> And, I believe, rationally, what is written on a book
> must be double-triple checked with other texts/facts/
> before saying it is true.
>
> Do we (NOVA) ROMAN CITIZENS believe, for example, that
> Romolus, the founder of ROMA and of our Civilization
> was, as written in our hystory books and as our
> ancestors firmly believed, son of a Virgin and of a
> God(Mars) and that after he died he ascended to heaven
> as a God ?
>
> Do you believe that Prophet Mohammed, as written in
> the Holy Kuran, was infact flown to Jerusalem by a
> flock of Angels?
>
> VALE OPTIME
> LVCIVS Q. VESTA
>
> --- Gaius Equitius Cato <mlcinnyc@...> ha
> scritto:
>
> > Cato L. Quirino Vestae sal.
> >
> > Salve Quirinus Vesta.
> >
> > Lucian, a second-century AD Roman writer, wrote
> > this:
> >
> > "The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day
> > — the
> > distinguished personage who introduced their novel
> > rites, and was
> > crucified on that account...You see, these misguided
> > creatures start
> > with the general conviction that they are immortal
> > for all time, which
> > explains the contempt of death and voluntary
> > self-devotion which are
> > so common among them; and then it was impressed on
> > them by their
> > original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from
> > the moment that
> > they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and
> > worship the
> > crucified sage, and live after his laws." - Lucian,
> > The Death of
> > Peregrine, 11-13 in The Works of Lucian of Samosata,
> > translated by H.
> > W. Fowler (Oxford: Clarendon, 1949) vol. 4
>
>
>
> ___________________________________
> L'email della prossima generazione? Puoi averla con la Nuova
Yahoo! Mail: http://it.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53601 From: Lucius Iulius Regulus Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Salve,

It is true and well known that the Gospels pertaining to life of Jesus contradict each other and were not even written during his time. So is it safe to say that there are discrepancies in the story, of course. It is even well known that the Vatican itself still has books in its possession that were not accepted into the Bible. They claim these unpublished books are blasphemous to Christ and the church itself. If what is written in those books not true at all, why not publish them for the public to read. It seems as though they are hiding something from their followers which is utterly, without question, wrong. The church is not educating their people they are insulting their intellegence for their benefit. They are guiding the people into the unknown and it should no longer continue that way.

Lucius Iulius Regulus.


----- Original Message ----
From: Lucius Quirinus <ostiaaterni@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 10:57:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed

Salve Cato

Yes, we have some evidence that 200 YEARS(SECOND
CENTURY A.D.)after "Christ" purported existence
...Christians were "misguided creatures".. .followers
of a "man" that(THEY SAY) was crucified... etc.

It is all about Christians, not about Mr. Jesus
Christ, his life and his deeds.

Gospels..?? If you read them carefully they
contraddict themselves often; in any case, they were
written at least one century AFTER the hypotetical
"Jesus Christ" life; Paulus of Tarsus never met him,
incidentally.

In addition, the "earliest complete Christian Bibles,
all in Greek, date from the 4th to the 5th centuries"
this is what Mr. Souren Melikian writes in an article
page 11 , International Herald Tribune Dec 9-10, 2006.

It means that what the Church say are "True" Gospels
tell us something happened at least 400 years before.

And, I believe, rationally, what is written on a book
must be double-triple checked with other texts/facts/
before saying it is true.

Do we (NOVA) ROMAN CITIZENS believe, for example, that
Romolus, the founder of ROMA and of our Civilization
was, as written in our hystory books and as our
ancestors firmly believed, son of a Virgin and of a
God(Mars) and that after he died he ascended to heaven
as a God ?

Do you believe that Prophet Mohammed, as written in
the Holy Kuran, was infact flown to Jerusalem by a
flock of Angels?

VALE OPTIME
LVCIVS Q. VESTA

--- Gaius Equitius Cato <mlcinnyc@gmail. com> ha
scritto:

> Cato L. Quirino Vestae sal.
>
> Salve Quirinus Vesta.
>
> Lucian, a second-century AD Roman writer, wrote
> this:
>
> "The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day
> � the
> distinguished personage who introduced their novel
> rites, and was
> crucified on that account...You see, these misguided
> creatures start
> with the general conviction that they are immortal
> for all time, which
> explains the contempt of death and voluntary
> self-devotion which are
> so common among them; and then it was impressed on
> them by their
> original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from
> the moment that
> they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and
> worship the
> crucified sage, and live after his laws." - Lucian,
> The Death of
> Peregrine, 11-13 in The Works of Lucian of Samosata,
> translated by H.
> W. Fowler (Oxford: Clarendon, 1949) vol. 4

____________ _________ _________ _____
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53602 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus Lucio Iulio Regulo salutem dicit

Many texts that were classified as "non-canonical" are available to
read in translation. Most were originally written in Greek and then
translated into Coptic. It is the Coptic (in most cases) that has
survived. One such find was the Nag Hammadi codices found in Egypt in
the mid-20th century. There have been other finds, such as the recent
translation of the Gospel of Judas (mentioned by Irenaeus).

Although it is important to understand that not all texts not included
in the canon of the New Testament are considered "blasphemous," or
heretical. The writings of Ignatius of Antioch or Polycarp, for
example, are not considered heretical. They simply were not
considered inspired enough to be included in the canon.

Denominations have their doctrines and documents that circumvent their
doctrine are excluded. The same also happens now in Nova Roma. For
example, some pontifices in Nova Roma oppose the idea of women as
pontifices. Some of us support the idea. I've written about the
subject and my work is here:
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/In_Defense_of_Women_Pontifices_%28Nova_Roma%29

In the formulation of Christian dogma there have been disputes. Look
at the dispute over the existence of the Trinity. Theologians fought
over this, and the ones who advocated for the existence of the Trinity
prevailed. Those texts that supported a particular doctrine were
emphasized and those that did not were considered bad or wrong.

There have always been theological disputes in almost any religious
tradition. In the history of Rome I'm sure some people hated the idea
of plebeians being allowed to run for office or obtain priesthoods,
but it happened.

The churches are simply teaching their doctrines. I don't think they
are necessarily trying to insult anyone. It might seem this way, but
if you look at their teachings from an insider's point of view it
seems different. I'm not an insider anymore, but I was. When I was a
Benedictine monk (many years ago) we didn't hide from the fact that
there were non-canonical texts, we simply didn't agree with them.

[Note: NOT trying to fight with you. Just discussing].

Vale:

Modianus

On Dec 14, 2007 4:12 PM, Lucius Iulius Regulus <luciusjul25@...> wrote:
> Salve,
>
> It is true and well known that the Gospels pertaining to life of Jesus contradict each other and were not even written during his time. So is it safe to say that there are discrepancies in the story, of course. It is even well known that the Vatican itself still has books in its possession that were not accepted into the Bible. They claim these unpublished books are blasphemous to Christ and the church itself. If what is written in those books not true at all, why not publish them for the public to read. It seems as though they are hiding something from their followers which is utterly, without question, wrong. The church is not educating their people they are insulting their intellegence for their benefit. They are guiding the people into the unknown and it should no longer continue that way.
>
> Lucius Iulius Regulus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53603 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Fine
Cato L. Iulio Regulo M. Hortensiae Maiori sal.

Salvete.

Iulius Regulus, you obviously did not bother to read the critical
passages regarding the way written history is passed down (or consider
the professional Classical historians' views that I presented), nor do
you seem to have paid attention to my declaration that I AM NOT A
ROMAN CATHOLIC. I have no interest, theologically, in what the
Vatican does or does not do.

With the greatest respect for my Christian brothers and sisters who
are Roman Catholic, the history of the Christian Church is NOT the
same as the history of Roman Catholicism.

With respect, Maior, if Iulius Regulus is only interested in
continuing to spout the same message over and over again without
respect to what I have written in answer, there is not a "discussion"
occurring. Since that is what is actually happening, I am no longer
interested in continuing. I would much rather discuss the ways to
celebrate the Saturnalia - even without a statue or bust of Saturn
Himself available.

Valete,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53604 From: Lucius Iulius Regulus Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: Fine
Salve Cato,

Friend Cato I never stated anywhere that you were a Roman Catholic nor would I if I didnt know what denomination you belong. All I stated was that there are books still being held back by the Vatican that they felt threatened by. I did read what you posted and it almost seems you are picking a fight with me. I am stating my opinion of the situation and if you can not accept that then do not respond to any messages pertaining to this topic. I am not trying to pick a fight with you although I cant say the same about you. You seem to not like the opinions of some others when they talk about Jesus and Christianity. We are discussing what we know and sharing it with everyone. I will not ever hesitate to post on something that I wish to discuss with others but if you would like to, then so be it.

Lucius Iulius Regulus


----- Original Message ----
From: Gaius Equitius Cato <mlcinnyc@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 4:54:26 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Fine

Cato L. Iulio Regulo M. Hortensiae Maiori sal.

Salvete.

Iulius Regulus, you obviously did not bother to read the critical
passages regarding the way written history is passed down (or consider
the professional Classical historians' views that I presented), nor do
you seem to have paid attention to my declaration that I AM NOT A
ROMAN CATHOLIC. I have no interest, theologically, in what the
Vatican does or does not do.

With the greatest respect for my Christian brothers and sisters who
are Roman Catholic, the history of the Christian Church is NOT the
same as the history of Roman Catholicism.

With respect, Maior, if Iulius Regulus is only interested in
continuing to spout the same message over and over again without
respect to what I have written in answer, there is not a "discussion"
occurring. Since that is what is actually happening, I am no longer
interested in continuing. I would much rather discuss the ways to
celebrate the Saturnalia - even without a statue or bust of Saturn
Himself available.

Valete,

Cato





____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53605 From: Lucius Iulius Regulus Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Salve Friend,

I know about the other text that you wrote but months ago I read somewhere ( dont remember exactly where but if I find the article again I will share it) that there continues to be some books held back from the church and there was an inside source that stated they will probably not be published for a very long time because there is some damaging information within those books. I just dont like the fact that there still could be information out there that could be useful in understanding who this man really was but its being kept from the public. Maybe I feel too much about a religion that is not even mine but hate to see people being lied to by their own leaders of their church. If a story is to be told then it should be told in its full aspect. Almost my whole education was in private Catholic school. I was in Catholic school for 12 years, elementary school all the way to high school and not once was it ever expressed the relationship
Catholicism/Christianity had with other religions of the world. Ofcourse it should not be taught when you are in first or second grade but in high schools these views should be taught. We were never taught that the Gospels contradict each other or even that they were written long after the time of Christ or even the names attributed to the writers of the Gospels might not even be their real names. I just find it hard to believe that education should continue this way especially if the education is being paid for. So I appreciate your insight and hope to hear back from you soon. Old arguments are forgotten about friend. :-)

Lucius Iulius Regulus


----- Original Message ----
From: David Kling (Modianus) <tau.athanasios@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 4:51:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus Lucio Iulio Regulo salutem dicit

Many texts that were classified as "non-canonical" are available to
read in translation. Most were originally written in Greek and then
translated into Coptic. It is the Coptic (in most cases) that has
survived. One such find was the Nag Hammadi codices found in Egypt in
the mid-20th century. There have been other finds, such as the recent
translation of the Gospel of Judas (mentioned by Irenaeus).

Although it is important to understand that not all texts not included
in the canon of the New Testament are considered "blasphemous, " or
heretical. The writings of Ignatius of Antioch or Polycarp, for
example, are not considered heretical. They simply were not
considered inspired enough to be included in the canon.

Denominations have their doctrines and documents that circumvent their
doctrine are excluded. The same also happens now in Nova Roma. For
example, some pontifices in Nova Roma oppose the idea of women as
pontifices. Some of us support the idea. I've written about the
subject and my work is here:
http://www.novaroma .org/nr/In_ Defense_of_ Women_Pontifices _%28Nova_ Roma%29

In the formulation of Christian dogma there have been disputes. Look
at the dispute over the existence of the Trinity. Theologians fought
over this, and the ones who advocated for the existence of the Trinity
prevailed. Those texts that supported a particular doctrine were
emphasized and those that did not were considered bad or wrong.

There have always been theological disputes in almost any religious
tradition. In the history of Rome I'm sure some people hated the idea
of plebeians being allowed to run for office or obtain priesthoods,
but it happened.

The churches are simply teaching their doctrines. I don't think they
are necessarily trying to insult anyone. It might seem this way, but
if you look at their teachings from an insider's point of view it
seems different. I'm not an insider anymore, but I was. When I was a
Benedictine monk (many years ago) we didn't hide from the fact that
there were non-canonical texts, we simply didn't agree with them.

[Note: NOT trying to fight with you. Just discussing].

Vale:

Modianus

On Dec 14, 2007 4:12 PM, Lucius Iulius Regulus <luciusjul25@ yahoo.com> wrote:
> Salve,
>
> It is true and well known that the Gospels pertaining to life of Jesus contradict each other and were not even written during his time. So is it safe to say that there are discrepancies in the story, of course. It is even well known that the Vatican itself still has books in its possession that were not accepted into the Bible. They claim these unpublished books are blasphemous to Christ and the church itself. If what is written in those books not true at all, why not publish them for the public to read. It seems as though they are hiding something from their followers which is utterly, without question, wrong. The church is not educating their people they are insulting their intellegence for their benefit. They are guiding the people into the unknown and it should no longer continue that way.
>
> Lucius Iulius Regulus




____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53606 From: Maior Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: Fine
Salve Cato;
I too have no desire to pick a fight with you either. I know which
sect you belong to; Greek Orthodox. My posts were on undocumented
vs. documented historical figures.
Epicurus, Aristotle, Plato: documented.

I also included Roman and Jewish ones, Romulus, Remus, Aeneas,
David, Moses, Solomon and Abraham along with Jesus to support the
point I was making.

It was and is very Roman to have such discussions. Think of Cicero's
great work De Natura Deorum -"On the Nature of the Gods," or
Lucretius' De Rerum Natura -"On the Nature of Things."
bene vale
Marca Hortensia Maior
Please add books to the new book list;
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Reading_list_for_philosophy
ps. Romans didn't capitalize gods, so no one is 'He'

> Salve Cato,
>
> Friend Cato I never stated anywhere that you were a Roman Catholic
nor would I if I didnt know what denomination you belong. All I
stated was that there are books still being held back by the Vatican
that they felt threatened by. I did read what you posted and it
almost seems you are picking a fight with me. I am stating my
opinion of the situation and if you can not accept that then do not
respond to any messages pertaining to this topic. I am not trying to
pick a fight with you although I cant say the same about you. You
seem to not like the opinions of some others when they talk about
Jesus and Christianity. We are discussing what we know and sharing
it with everyone. I will not ever hesitate to post on something that
I wish to discuss with others but if you would like to, then so be
it.
>
> Lucius Iulius Regulus
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Gaius Equitius Cato <mlcinnyc@...>
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 4:54:26 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Fine
>
> Cato L. Iulio Regulo M. Hortensiae Maiori sal.
>
> Salvete.
>
> Iulius Regulus, you obviously did not bother to read the critical
> passages regarding the way written history is passed down (or
consider
> the professional Classical historians' views that I presented),
nor do
> you seem to have paid attention to my declaration that I AM NOT A
> ROMAN CATHOLIC. I have no interest, theologically, in what the
> Vatican does or does not do.
>
> With the greatest respect for my Christian brothers and sisters who
> are Roman Catholic, the history of the Christian Church is NOT the
> same as the history of Roman Catholicism.
>
> With respect, Maior, if Iulius Regulus is only interested in
> continuing to spout the same message over and over again without
> respect to what I have written in answer, there is not
a "discussion"
> occurring. Since that is what is actually happening, I am no longer
> interested in continuing. I would much rather discuss the ways to
> celebrate the Saturnalia - even without a statue or bust of Saturn
> Himself available.
>
> Valete,
>
> Cato
>
>
>
>
>
>
_____________________________________________________________________
_______________
> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53607 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed
Salvete Omnes,

In the spirit of sharing, I'll jump in with this. You can visit
Jesus's grave in Shingo (aka Herai) Village, northern Japan. Here is
what it says there (I have this at second hand, having never been
there myself):

"Christ's Grave

When Jesus Christ was 21 years old, he left Japan and pursued
knowledge of divinity for 12 years. When he went back to Judea at age
33, and engaged in his mission. However, at that time, people in Judea
would not accept Christ's preaching. Instead, they arrested him and
tried to crucify him on a cross. His younger brother, Isukiri,
casually took christ's place and ended his life on the cross.

Christ, who escaped the crucification, went through the ups and downs
of travel, and again came to Japan. He settled right here in what is
now called Herai Village, and died at the age of 106.

On this holy ground, he dedicated a burial mound on the right to deify
Christ, and a grave on the left to deify Isukiri.

The above description was given in a testament by Jesus Christ."


The adventurous might want to read what Japanfile has to say:
http://www.japanfile.com/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=387

The *really* adventurous will google for <jesus herai>.

I have been in Japan for a long time. How Japan views western culture
is endlessly fascinating. I do spend a lot of money on grains of salt,
though.

Optime valete!

Agricola
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53608 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: Fine
Cato L. Iulio Regulo M. Hortensiae Maiori SPD

Salvete.

I feel like Michael Corleone :-/

Iulius Regulus, my point was this:

Lucian of Samosata, who detested Christianity, speaks to his audience
with the clear, unquestioned knowledge that they know exactly of Whom
he speaks; that it is such common knowledge that he uses it as a basis
for ridicule. He says, mockingly, of Proteus (his antihero) that
Christians loved him "and set him down as a protector, next after that
other, to be sure, whom they still worship, the man who was crucified
in Palestine because he introduced this new cult into the world." (The
Passing of Peregrinus 12; trans. A.M. Harmon, 1936, Loeb Classical
Library)

So not only does Lucian know the practices of Christianity (brotherly
love, belief in immortality, contempt of death, worship of Christ) but
assumes his audience is familiar with "their first lawgiver...the
crucified sophist" (op. cit. 13) - and note also that he refers to
Christ as a singular individual with a singular and particular
geographical history.

So, here is one Classical author who writes about a particular
individual Who taught specific things in a specific place and suffered
a particular kind of death; his detestation of Christianity could have
easily found an outlet in simply saying that the Christians were fools
above all else because they based their faith in Someone Who never
existed.

The written evidence of the New Testament itself, which for some
reason you decline to consider even after I have shown that they are
the equal of any other ancient source under the examination of
literary criticism, also puts the burden of proof on those who deny
His existence.

From what you write I detect a singular animosity towards the Roman
Catholic Church and its schools; you join the ranks of countless other
ex-Roman Catholics who have a personal axe to grind against that
church. I have no interest in defending the Roman Catholic Church in
any way; I will leave that to Roman Catholics if they desire to do so.

Valete,

Cato

P.S. - I did make one glaring error: I forgot that Classical
historian Michael Grant is no longer alive. GEC
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53609 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: In Japan
Cato M. Lucretio Agricolae sal.

Salve Agricole!

That's awesome - I never, ever knew about this. It's fascinating reading.

Vale,

Cato

P.S. - just in passing: Iulius Regulus, you mention differences
between the accounts in the Gospels. Well, if I pick up a copy of the
NY Times, The Post, and The Daily News, each with exactly the same
picture on the front page, there are going to be very interesting
differences in each one's portrayal of the event that occurred; they
are each writing to different audiences and emphasize different
aspects. That doesn't mean the event never occurred. GEC
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53610 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: In Japan
Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus Gaio Equitio Catoni salutem dicit

There is an interesting book out by Burt Ehrman "Misquoting Jesus"
about the very subject of the Gospels not having the exact same
stories. Ehrman gave a lecture at Stanford (he is on the faculty at
Chapel Hill by the way) as a guest lecturer and I've heard it via
podcast. Very interesting. I like Ehrman's work. He has also done
work on non-canonical texts which is an area I am very interested in.

Most mainstream seminaries in the US acknowledge the differences in
the Gospels. Its a point of Biblical studies and no theologian or
Biblical scholar is going to claim that the Gospels all match story
for story - point for point. But they don't need to! Each focuses on
a different aspect of the ministry of Jesus.

[Special Note: I'm not trying to fight with you. I'm agreeing with
you in my own way :)]

Vale;

Caeso Buteo

On Dec 14, 2007 6:56 PM, Gaius Equitius Cato <mlcinnyc@...> wrote:
>
>
> Cato M. Lucretio Agricolae sal.
>
> Salve Agricole!
>
> That's awesome - I never, ever knew about this. It's fascinating reading.
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>
> P.S. - just in passing: Iulius Regulus, you mention differences
> between the accounts in the Gospels. Well, if I pick up a copy of the
> NY Times, The Post, and The Daily News, each with exactly the same
> picture on the front page, there are going to be very interesting
> differences in each one's portrayal of the event that occurred; they
> are each writing to different audiences and emphasize different
> aspects. That doesn't mean the event never occurred. GEC
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53611 From: Maior Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: Fine
Maior Catoni Regulo SPD;
Lucian was born circa 125 A.D. , Peregrinus had been a Christian
and died a cynic. He's reporting common beliefs of Christians. No
more no less. Catullus and others wrote about the followers of Magna
Mater, it doesn't mean Attis is a real historical person. Though
there were kings in Pergamum called Attis. In the Hebrew Scriptures
there are chronicles of the kings of Israel, but no outside textual
or historical proof.

Cato it is not first hand evidence. Philo of Alexandria, Flavius
Josephus, and particularly Justus of Tiberias - a Jewish historian
born in Galillee never wrote one word about Jesus or heard of him.

This is what Photius, Patriarch of Constantinople says about Justus
of Tiberias

XXIII. Read the Chronicle of Justus of Tiberias, entitled A
Chronicle of the Kings of the Jews in the form of a genealogy, by
Justus of Tiberias. He came from Tiberias in Galilee, from which he
took his name. He begins his history with Moses and carries it down
to the death of the seventh Agrippa of the family of Herod and the
last of the Kings of the Jews. His kingdom, which was bestowed upon
him by Claudius, was extended by Nero, and still more by
Vespasian. He died in the third year of Trajan, when the history
ends. Justus' style is very concise and he omits a great deal that
is of utmost importance. Suffering from the common fault of the
Jews, to which race he belonged, he does not even mention the coming
of Christ, the events of his life, or the miracles performed by
Him.
http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/justus.htm

It's like Romulus, no bother, no problem
Maior
>
>
> I feel like Michael Corleone :-/
>
> Iulius Regulus, my point was this:
>
> Lucian of Samosata, who detested Christianity, speaks to his
audience
> with the clear, unquestioned knowledge that they know exactly of
Whom
> he speaks; that it is such common knowledge that he uses it as a
basis
> for ridicule. He says, mockingly, of Proteus (his antihero) that
> Christians loved him "and set him down as a protector, next after
that
> other, to be sure, whom they still worship, the man who was
crucified
> in Palestine because he introduced this new cult into the world."
(The
> Passing of Peregrinus 12; trans. A.M. Harmon, 1936, Loeb Classical
> Library)
>
> So not only does Lucian know the practices of Christianity
(brotherly
> love, belief in immortality, contempt of death, worship of Christ)
but
> assumes his audience is familiar with "their first lawgiver...the
> crucified sophist" (op. cit. 13) - and note also that he refers to
> Christ as a singular individual with a singular and particular
> geographical history.
>
> So, here is one Classical author who writes about a particular
> individual Who taught specific things in a specific place and
suffered
> a particular kind of death; his detestation of Christianity could
have
> easily found an outlet in simply saying that the Christians were
fools
> above all else because they based their faith in Someone Who never
> existed.
>
> The written evidence of the New Testament itself, which for some
> reason you decline to consider even after I have shown that they
are
> the equal of any other ancient source under the examination of
> literary criticism, also puts the burden of proof on those who deny
> His existence.
>
> From what you write I detect a singular animosity towards the Roman
> Catholic Church and its schools; you join the ranks of countless
other
> ex-Roman Catholics who have a personal axe to grind against that
> church. I have no interest in defending the Roman Catholic Church
in
> any way; I will leave that to Roman Catholics if they desire to do
so.
>
> Valete,
>
> Cato
>
> P.S. - I did make one glaring error: I forgot that Classical
> historian Michael Grant is no longer alive. GEC
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53612 From: Lucius Iulius Regulus Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: Fine
Salve,

Unfortunately, I wouldnt think you were anywhere close to being Michael Corleone. Michael Corleone was a good judge of other peoples character. Let me get the point across that I do not have a "personal axe to grind" with the Catholic Church. Im not trying to overthrow the Catholic Church and destroy what it has bult for thousands of years. I had a great experience growing up in private Catholic education. The discipline, the quality and character of the teachers. was all worth the experience. But when the education of religion came along it was a different experience. All that I know now I feel should have been taught in school. Many, unfortunately, leave school with the information that is taught and never look anywhere else for the other half of the story because they put their full trust in the system that gave them that information. Many Catholics/Christians that I have spoken to about this feel that it should be up to the private schools to teach
its students the whole story. People are only asking for complete education.

The Bible is not the New York Times, The Daily News, or The New York Post. The Bible is not a breaking news story on the front page of a paper. It is a historical religious book that many people put their faith into. I never put my complete trust and faith in a newspaper telling stories about things that happened 5 miles away or 50,000 miles away because no one knows what actually happened, just specualtion. The only people that truly know what happened in that point in time are those that were actually there at the moment. Sometimes the people with the real information, the truth, are already dead.

Lucius Iulius Regulus




----- Original Message ----
From: Gaius Equitius Cato <mlcinnyc@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 6:49:18 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Fine

Cato L. Iulio Regulo M. Hortensiae Maiori SPD

Salvete.

I feel like Michael Corleone :-/

Iulius Regulus, my point was this:

Lucian of Samosata, who detested Christianity, speaks to his audience
with the clear, unquestioned knowledge that they know exactly of Whom
he speaks; that it is such common knowledge that he uses it as a basis
for ridicule. He says, mockingly, of Proteus (his antihero) that
Christians loved him "and set him down as a protector, next after that
other, to be sure, whom they still worship, the man who was crucified
in Palestine because he introduced this new cult into the world." (The
Passing of Peregrinus 12; trans. A.M. Harmon, 1936, Loeb Classical
Library)

So not only does Lucian know the practices of Christianity (brotherly
love, belief in immortality, contempt of death, worship of Christ) but
assumes his audience is familiar with "their first lawgiver...the
crucified sophist" (op. cit. 13) - and note also that he refers to
Christ as a singular individual with a singular and particular
geographical history.

So, here is one Classical author who writes about a particular
individual Who taught specific things in a specific place and suffered
a particular kind of death; his detestation of Christianity could have
easily found an outlet in simply saying that the Christians were fools
above all else because they based their faith in Someone Who never
existed.

The written evidence of the New Testament itself, which for some
reason you decline to consider even after I have shown that they are
the equal of any other ancient source under the examination of
literary criticism, also puts the burden of proof on those who deny
His existence.

From what you write I detect a singular animosity towards the Roman
Catholic Church and its schools; you join the ranks of countless other
ex-Roman Catholics who have a personal axe to grind against that
church. I have no interest in defending the Roman Catholic Church in
any way; I will leave that to Roman Catholics if they desire to do so.

Valete,

Cato

P.S. - I did make one glaring error: I forgot that Classical
historian Michael Grant is no longer alive. GEC





____________________________________________________________________________________
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know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53613 From: Bruno Cantermi Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed/An Unbelieveabl
Salvete!

A grave of Jesus Christ in japan!! It's Impossible! How Could Jesus have been sailed for Far East and Japan and Lived until the age of 106, and married a Japanese woman!! Sincerely, I definitely don't believe it!!

Valete!

Lucius Fidelius Lusitanus SPD
----- Original Message -----
From: M. Lucretius Agricola
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 8:45 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed


Salvete Omnes,

In the spirit of sharing, I'll jump in with this. You can visit
Jesus's grave in Shingo (aka Herai) Village, northern Japan. Here is
what it says there (I have this at second hand, having never been
there myself):

"Christ's Grave

When Jesus Christ was 21 years old, he left Japan and pursued
knowledge of divinity for 12 years. When he went back to Judea at age
33, and engaged in his mission. However, at that time, people in Judea
would not accept Christ's preaching. Instead, they arrested him and
tried to crucify him on a cross. His younger brother, Isukiri,
casually took christ's place and ended his life on the cross.

Christ, who escaped the crucification, went through the ups and downs
of travel, and again came to Japan. He settled right here in what is
now called Herai Village, and died at the age of 106.

On this holy ground, he dedicated a burial mound on the right to deify
Christ, and a grave on the left to deify Isukiri.

The above description was given in a testament by Jesus Christ."

The adventurous might want to read what Japanfile has to say:
http://www.japanfile.com/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=387

The *really* adventurous will google for <jesus herai>.

I have been in Japan for a long time. How Japan views western culture
is endlessly fascinating. I do spend a lot of money on grains of salt,
though.

Optime valete!

Agricola





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53614 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: Fine
Cato M. Hortensiae Maiori L. Iulio Regulo C. Fabio Buteoni Modiano SPD

Salvete.

Maior, you wrote:

"He's reporting common beliefs of Christians. No more no less."

You have missed the entire point. Even when I made it absolutely
crystal clear. I will repeat it.

"...not only does Lucian know the practices of Christianity (brotherly
love, belief in immortality, contempt of death, worship of Christ) but
assumes his audience is familiar with 'their first lawgiver...the
crucified sophist' (op. cit. 13) - and note also that he refers to
Christ as a singular individual with a singular and particular
geographical history...here is one Classical author who writes about a
particular individual Who taught specific things in a specific place
and suffered a particular kind of death; his detestation of
Christianity could have easily found an outlet in simply saying that
the Christians were fools above all else because they based their
faith in Someone Who never existed."

Much, much more. He is predicating his entire argument against
Christianity on the assumption that his audience knows about the
cult's founder's place in real history. No miracles, no drama,
nothing except - basically - "remember that this guy taught a bunch of
stuff, riled up the neighbors, and got crucified in Palestine for it."

I notice that you don't mention the Gospels either. Before you dash
off something in response, re-read what I have written, and consider -
very carefully - the overwhelming majority opinion of actual literary
and historical textual criticism, done by actual historians and
literary critics.


Iulius Regulus, if you went to a Roman Catholic school you should act
somewhat less than surprised that you were taught Roman Catholic
doctrine - which, unless I've really missed the boat somewhere,
accepts not only the existence of, but also declares the divinity of,
Jesus. And remember the bit about "extra ecclesiam nulla salus est."
If you had gone to a Yeshiva, my guess is that you *probably* would
have come out knowing Hebrew. You say you have no axe to grind then
proceed to grind it quite nicely for the next paragraph.

And you missed - entirely and magnificently - my point about the
article in the newspapers. Fabius Modianus hit the nail square on the
head.

Valete,

Cato

P.S. - Iulius Regulus, you even missed the point of my reference to
Michael Corleone; perhaps the single most famous quote from "The
Godfather III". That makes me sad. GEC
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53615 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed/An Unbelieveabl
Cato L. Fidelio Lusitano sal.

Salve Fidelius Lusitanus.

You wrote:

"How Could Jesus have been sailed for Far East and Japan..."

Maybe He walked there?






Get it? Walking on water....

Thank you, thank you. I'm here all week. Try the veal, and don't
forget to tip the waitstaff.

Vale,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53616 From: adriano.rota Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: How to handle the Lararium
Salvete omnes,

I am about to bild a Lararium. What interests me is how has the hot
coals been handeled? I guess it was not an agrivating "how can I get
them glowing or burning ar create a flame" to an extend where I can
burn sacrifices or scents?

How do the experienced guys out there handle that?(I want to use real
charcoal)
Or how did the Romans most likely do it? Did they take glowing coal out
of their anyways burning fires?

Do one let it burn after the prayer ...??

Adriano Rota M. A.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53617 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: How to handle the Lararium
Salve!

You said "I want to use real charcoal".

I just want to warn you that you should not use the charcoal that is
sold for cooking outdoors. It is not suitable for indoor use at all.
You can buy little charcoal disks that are made just for this purpose.
I know that they are easy to find by mail order in the USA. Here in
Japan it is common to have Buddhist altars in the home, so I can get
this stuff anywhere. Most shopping centers have a little store for
these things. I'm sure you can find something safe.


Whatever kind of tripod or turibulum (or lucerna for that matter) that
you use, I suggest that you do as I do. I have a small, shallow metal
bowl that is is full of coarse sand to within 1 cm of the top that
serves as a base. If a turibulum becomes too hot, the sand insulates
it. If an oil lamp breaks or spills, the bowl catches the oil and the
sand soaks it up.


You might get more ideas from the photos here:
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Lararium_%28Nova_Roma%29

Optime vale!

Agricola


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "adriano.rota" <adriano.rota@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete omnes,
>
> I am about to bild a Lararium. What interests me is how has the hot
> coals been handeled? I guess it was not an agrivating "how can I get
> them glowing or burning ar create a flame" to an extend where I can
> burn sacrifices or scents?
>
> How do the experienced guys out there handle that?(I want to use real
> charcoal)
> Or how did the Romans most likely do it? Did they take glowing coal out
> of their anyways burning fires?
>
> Do one let it burn after the prayer ...??
>
> Adriano Rota M. A.
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53618 From: Maior Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: Fine
Maior Caton Regulo sal;
here's what the actual text of Lucian says:
11. "It was then that he learned the wondrous lore of the
Christians, by associating with their priests and scribes in
Palestine. And—how else could it be?—in a trice he made them all
look like children, for he was prophet, cult-leader, head of the
synagogue, and everything, all by himself. He inter preted and
explained some of their books and even composed many, and they
revered him as a god, made use of him as a lawgiver, and set him
down as a protector, next after that other, to be sure, whom11 they
still worship, the man who was crucified in Palestine because he
introduced this new cult into the world.
http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/lucian/peregrinus.htm

He's reporting what others believe, it doesn't mean it is true or
not true. The only witness to Moses, David, all the Hebrew Prophets
are the Hebrew Scriptures written by pious Jews, it's not
independent evidence; they are biased. And there is none, until an
independent inscription or piece of evidence is found, which is fine.


Actually Lucian is an Epicurean and wrote a very funny book on Dea
Syria and the Syrian beliefs..'Dea Dea Syria';

"A man goes up one of these pillars twice a year and stays at the
top of the pillar for the period of seven days. And they say the
cause of his going up is this. Common folk believe that he speaks
with the gods on high and asks boons for all Syria, and the gods
hear his prayers from so near."

When Nabarz came, Cato you didn't ask him any questions about
Mithras, his Virgin Mother Anahita, Judgement or Ressurection. Why
not? The rational man or woman, the thoughtful man or woman has no
problem with these questions or a diversity of answers.

I was enjoying the broad discussion about philosophy, history and
many religions not the truth/falsity of someone named Jesus.It's
your cultus go and enjoy it!
bene vale
Maior


> "...not only does Lucian know the practices of Christianity
(brotherly
> love, belief in immortality, contempt of death, worship of Christ)
but
> assumes his audience is familiar with 'their first lawgiver...the
> crucified sophist' (op. cit. 13) - and note also that he refers to
> Christ as a singular individual with a singular and particular
> geographical history...here is one Classical author who writes
about a
> particular individual Who taught specific things in a specific
place
> and suffered a particular kind of death; his detestation of
> Christianity could have easily found an outlet in simply saying
that
> the Christians were fools above all else because they based their
> faith in Someone Who never existed."
>
> Much, much more. He is predicating his entire argument against
> Christianity on the assumption that his audience knows about the
> cult's founder's place in real history. No miracles, no drama,
> nothing except - basically - "remember that this guy taught a
bunch of
> stuff, riled up the neighbors, and got crucified in Palestine for
it."
>
> I notice that you don't mention the Gospels either. Before you
dash
> off something in response, re-read what I have written, and
consider -
> very carefully - the overwhelming majority opinion of actual
literary
> and historical textual criticism, done by actual historians and
> literary critics.
>
>
> Iulius Regulus, if you went to a Roman Catholic school you should
act
> somewhat less than surprised that you were taught Roman Catholic
> doctrine - which, unless I've really missed the boat somewhere,
> accepts not only the existence of, but also declares the divinity
of,
> Jesus. And remember the bit about "extra ecclesiam nulla salus
est."
> If you had gone to a Yeshiva, my guess is that you *probably*
would
> have come out knowing Hebrew. You say you have no axe to grind
then
> proceed to grind it quite nicely for the next paragraph.
>
> And you missed - entirely and magnificently - my point about the
> article in the newspapers. Fabius Modianus hit the nail square on
the
> head.
>
> Valete,
>
> Cato
>
> P.S. - Iulius Regulus, you even missed the point of my reference to
> Michael Corleone; perhaps the single most famous quote from "The
> Godfather III". That makes me sad. GEC
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53619 From: luciusjul25@yahoo.com Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: How to handle the Lararium
Salve,

I was also interested in using coal lamps in my home but was always afraid of burning down my house :-). I have also tried to find the 'powdered incense'(I'm not sure if that is what they call it) that is thrown on the coal to burn. If you or anyone can provide information on finding it then it will be great help. Thanks in advance.

Lucius Iulius Regulus
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: "M. Lucretius Agricola" <wm_hogue@...>

Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 02:08:58
To:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: How to handle the Lararium


Salve!

You said "I want to use real charcoal".

I just want to warn you that you should not use the charcoal that is
sold for cooking outdoors. It is not suitable for indoor use at all.
You can buy little charcoal disks that are made just for this purpose.
I know that they are easy to find by mail order in the USA. Here in
Japan it is common to have Buddhist altars in the home, so I can get
this stuff anywhere. Most shopping centers have a little store for
these things. I'm sure you can find something safe.

Whatever kind of tripod or turibulum (or lucerna for that matter) that
you use, I suggest that you do as I do. I have a small, shallow metal
bowl that is is full of coarse sand to within 1 cm of the top that
serves as a base. If a turibulum becomes too hot, the sand insulates
it. If an oil lamp breaks or spills, the bowl catches the oil and the
sand soaks it up.

You might get more ideas from the photos here:
http://www.novaroma <http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Lararium_%28Nova_Roma%29> .org/nr/Lararium_%28Nova_Roma%29

Optime vale!

Agricola

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou <mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com, "adriano.rota" <adriano.rota@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete omnes,
>
> I am about to bild a Lararium. What interests me is how has the hot
> coals been handeled? I guess it was not an agrivating "how can I get
> them glowing or burning ar create a flame" to an extend where I can
> burn sacrifices or scents?
>
> How do the experienced guys out there handle that?(I want to use real
> charcoal)
> Or how did the Romans most likely do it? Did they take glowing coal out
> of their anyways burning fires?
>
> Do one let it burn after the prayer ...??
>
> Adriano Rota M. A.
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53620 From: luciusjul25@yahoo.com Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: Fine
Salve,

I am not in the least bit surprised to being taught Roman Catholic doctrine while going to Catholic school. You did miss the boat. You missed it long after it left the dock. My surprise is that not more of the story is being told. The history, its origin. Be assured again Cato I have no axe to grind ANYWHERE. That is not my intention. My concern is better religious education.

And please keep your pity to yourself. I and no one else here needs it. Your reference to Michael Corleone and mine were two different references. All I stated was that he was a better judge of character and others intentions. Don't think I don't know what it is that you meant, I have seen The Godfather many times.

"Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in."
Lucius Iulius Regulus

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: "Gaius Equitius Cato" <mlcinnyc@...>

Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 01:32:30
To:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Fine


Cato M. Hortensiae Maiori L. Iulio Regulo C. Fabio Buteoni Modiano SPD

Salvete.

Maior, you wrote:

"He's reporting common beliefs of Christians. No more no less."

You have missed the entire point. Even when I made it absolutely
crystal clear. I will repeat it.

"...not only does Lucian know the practices of Christianity (brotherly
love, belief in immortality, contempt of death, worship of Christ) but
assumes his audience is familiar with 'their first lawgiver...the
crucified sophist' (op. cit. 13) - and note also that he refers to
Christ as a singular individual with a singular and particular
geographical history...here is one Classical author who writes about a
particular individual Who taught specific things in a specific place
and suffered a particular kind of death; his detestation of
Christianity could have easily found an outlet in simply saying that
the Christians were fools above all else because they based their
faith in Someone Who never existed."

Much, much more. He is predicating his entire argument against
Christianity on the assumption that his audience knows about the
cult's founder's place in real history. No miracles, no drama,
nothing except - basically - "remember that this guy taught a bunch of
stuff, riled up the neighbors, and got crucified in Palestine for it."

I notice that you don't mention the Gospels either. Before you dash
off something in response, re-read what I have written, and consider -
very carefully - the overwhelming majority opinion of actual literary
and historical textual criticism, done by actual historians and
literary critics.

Iulius Regulus, if you went to a Roman Catholic school you should act
somewhat less than surprised that you were taught Roman Catholic
doctrine - which, unless I've really missed the boat somewhere,
accepts not only the existence of, but also declares the divinity of,
Jesus. And remember the bit about "extra ecclesiam nulla salus est."
If you had gone to a Yeshiva, my guess is that you *probably* would
have come out knowing Hebrew. You say you have no axe to grind then
proceed to grind it quite nicely for the next paragraph.

And you missed - entirely and magnificently - my point about the
article in the newspapers. Fabius Modianus hit the nail square on the
head.

Valete,

Cato

P.S. - Iulius Regulus, you even missed the point of my reference to
Michael Corleone; perhaps the single most famous quote from "The
Godfather III". That makes me sad. GEC
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53621 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: Fine
Cato L. Iulio Regulo sal.

Salve Iulius Regulus.

If you want a saecular education, go to a saecular school. If you
want a Roman Catholic education, go to a Roman Catholic school. Why
on earth would a Roman Catholic school teach something that denies or
undermines Roman Catholic doctrine? To go back to my analogy, if you
went to a Yeshiva you would *probably* not be taught that Jesus is the
Messiah.

This really isn't going anywhere, and the tone is getting a little too
personal, so I'm done but thank you. I'm sure we'll find things upon
which we agree in the future.

Vale,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53622 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: The Myth of Fiorella LaGuardia
Gaius Equitius Cato <mlcinnyc@...> writes:

> [...] if I pick up a copy of the
> NY Times, The Post, and The Daily News, each with exactly the same
> picture on the front page, there are going to be very interesting
> differences in each one's portrayal of the event that occurred; they
> are each writing to different audiences and emphasize different
> aspects. That doesn't mean the event never occurred. GEC

Oh, come on Cato! Next you're going to try to tell us that Fiorella
LaGuardia was a real person who was really the mayor of New York.
I've seen the Weekly World News expose of that ridiculous story. Why,
we might as well believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster!


CN-EQVIT-MARINVS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53623 From: marcushoratius Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: a. d. XVIII Kalendas Ianuaris
M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus Quiritibus et omnibus salutem
plurimam dicit: Di vos salvam et servatam volunt.

Hodie est ante diem XVIII Kalendas Ianuaris; haec dies nefastus est:
Consualia; ara Fortunae Reduci dedicata

The Consualia, celebrated on the Ides at Rome, was instead celebrated
two days later at Praeneste.

15 Dec. AUC 883 / 130 CE: Birth of Lucius Verus, co-emperor with
Marcus Aurelianus

15 Dec. AUC 790 / 37 CE: Birth of Nero

15 Dec. AUC 734 / 19 BCE: Dedication of the Temple of Fortuna Redux

The Senate dedicated an Altar of Fortuna Redux upon the fortunate
return of Augustus to Rome. The Altar was by the Porta Capena, near
the sacred grove of Carmentis. Sacerdotes Augustales were joined by
Vestales Virgines to celebrate the Augustalia, paying tribute to the
Genius of Caesar Augustus.


Gaius Plinius Saecundus Maior on Dea Fortuna

"For all over the world, in all places, and at all times, Fortuna is
the only Goddess whom every one invokes; She alone is spoken of, She
alone is accused and is supposed to be guilty; She alone is in our
thoughts, is praised and blamed, and is loathed with reproaches;
wavering as She is, conceived by the generality of mankind to be
blind, wandering, inconstant, uncertain, variable, and often
favouring the unworthy. To Her are referred all our losses and all
our gains, and in casting up the accounts of mortals She alone
balances the two pages of our sheet. We are so much in the power of
chance that change itself is considered as a God, and the existence
of God becomes doubtful." ~ Plinius Secundus, Historia Naturalis 2.5


AUC 540 / 213 CE: Fire at Rome and the marvel in the Temple of
Fortuna

"At Rome there was a dreadful fire that lasted for two nights and a
day. All the buildings between the Salinae and the Porta Carmentalis,
including the Aequimaelium, the Vicus Jugarius, and the temples of
Fortune and Mater Matuta were burnt to the ground. The fire traveled
for a considerable distance outside the gate and destroyed much
property and many sacred objects." ~ Titus Livius 24.47.15

"When the shrine of the Salii was burned, nothing was found in it
intact except for the augural lituus of Romulus. The Statue of
Servius Tullius remained undamaged when the Temple of Fortuna was
destroyed by fire." ~ Valerius Maximus 1.8.11 (see also Cicero Div.
1.30; Dionysius Halicarnassus 4.40.7)

There was a statue enthroned, an image of Servius:
They say it put a hand to its eyes,
And a voice was heard: "Hide my face,
Lest it view my own wicked daughter."
It was veiled by cloth, Fortune refused to let the robe
Be removed, and She Herself spoke from her temple:
"The day when the face of Servius is next revealed,
Will be a day when modesty is cast aside."
...
The temple once burned: but the fire spared
The statue: Volcanus Mulciber preserved His son.
~ Ovid, Fast 6.12-26


Today's thought is from Seneca, Epistles 102

"As the mother's womb holds us for ten months, making us ready, not
for the womb itself, but for the existence into which we seem to be
sent forth when at last we are fitted to draw breath and live in the
open; just so, throughout the years extending between infancy and old
age, we are making ourselves ready for another birth. A different
beginning, a different condition, awaits us. We cannot yet, except at
rare intervals, endure the light of heaven; therefore, look forward
without fear to that appointed hour - the last hour of the body but
not of the soul."
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53624 From: Maior Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: How to handle the Lararium
Salve Regule:
here you go, really any good wiccan shop usually has this stuff.
Tablets, a burner, put sand in the burner, which is nice and safe.
Here's a link to a very nice shop:

http://www.somaluna.com/ They have some really nice burners, the
Etruscan one is definitely to my taste...

and here are more resin incenses
http://www.incenseguru.com/nu_essence.html
scroll down for Kyphi - this is the recipe that the Egyptians
burned in their temples. I got the link off an ancient perfumes list.
bene vale
Maior

>
> Salve,
>
> I was also interested in using coal lamps in my home but was
always afraid of burning down my house :-). I have also tried to
find the 'powdered incense'(I'm not sure if that is what they call
it) that is thrown on the coal to burn. If you or anyone can provide
information on finding it then it will be great help. Thanks in
advance.
>
> Lucius Iulius Regulus
> Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "M. Lucretius Agricola" <wm_hogue@...>
>
> Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 02:08:58
> To:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: How to handle the Lararium
>
>
> Salve!
>
> You said "I want to use real charcoal".
>
> I just want to warn you that you should not use the charcoal that
is
> sold for cooking outdoors. It is not suitable for indoor use at
all.
> You can buy little charcoal disks that are made just for this
purpose.
> I know that they are easy to find by mail order in the USA. Here
in
> Japan it is common to have Buddhist altars in the home, so I can
get
> this stuff anywhere. Most shopping centers have a little store for
> these things. I'm sure you can find something safe.
>
> Whatever kind of tripod or turibulum (or lucerna for that matter)
that
> you use, I suggest that you do as I do. I have a small, shallow
metal
> bowl that is is full of coarse sand to within 1 cm of the top that
> serves as a base. If a turibulum becomes too hot, the sand
insulates
> it. If an oil lamp breaks or spills, the bowl catches the oil and
the
> sand soaks it up.
>
> You might get more ideas from the photos here:
> http://www.novaroma <http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Lararium_%
28Nova_Roma%29> .org/nr/Lararium_%28Nova_Roma%29
>
> Optime vale!
>
> Agricola
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou <mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>
ps.com, "adriano.rota" <adriano.rota@> wrote:
> >
> > Salvete omnes,
> >
> > I am about to bild a Lararium. What interests me is how has the
hot
> > coals been handeled? I guess it was not an agrivating "how can
I get
> > them glowing or burning ar create a flame" to an extend where I
can
> > burn sacrifices or scents?
> >
> > How do the experienced guys out there handle that?(I want to
use real
> > charcoal)
> > Or how did the Romans most likely do it? Did they take glowing
coal out
> > of their anyways burning fires?
> >
> > Do one let it burn after the prayer ...??
> >
> > Adriano Rota M. A.
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53625 From: Lucius Iulius Regulus Date: 2007-12-14
Subject: Re: Fine
Salve,

I am not asking that they deny Roman Catholic doctrine but just hoping for better religious education. If the story of Easter is told, Christmas, or any other Christian holiday that has its roots deep within the origins of other religions, then that side should be expressed so as to encourage a greater knowledge in ones religion. Then we wouldnt have people half informed roaming the Earth of what their religion truly is. Why is it wrong to expand the intelligence of a growing mind?? Why is it wrong to ask for better religious education, no matter what religion?? If you feel that this is getting too personal then I apologize and it was not my aim but the point where it became personal didnt come from this end. I wouldnt want to rustle any feathers.

Lucius Iulius Regulus




----- Original Message ----
From: Gaius Equitius Cato <mlcinnyc@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 10:36:58 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Fine

Cato L. Iulio Regulo sal.

Salve Iulius Regulus.

If you want a saecular education, go to a saecular school. If you
want a Roman Catholic education, go to a Roman Catholic school. Why
on earth would a Roman Catholic school teach something that denies or
undermines Roman Catholic doctrine? To go back to my analogy, if you
went to a Yeshiva you would *probably* not be taught that Jesus is the
Messiah.

This really isn't going anywhere, and the tone is getting a little too
personal, so I'm done but thank you. I'm sure we'll find things upon
which we agree in the future.

Vale,

Cato





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53626 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Re: How to handle the Lararium
Salvete omnes,

> I am about to bild a Lararium.

And I too.

My question about my lararium was:

I want to put my private altar, Lararium meum, in my kitchen near the
cooker. The wall I choose is east-facing. Is-it "fas" (correct with the
divine laws) to have an altar east-facing or not ?

but I had no answer...

G.Petronius Dexter.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53627 From: Lucius Iulius Regulus Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Re: How to handle the Lararium
Salve Maior,

Thanks again Maior for the info on the incense. They have really beautiful merchandise there and they will definitely be receiving plenty of business from me. I would love to get some incense burners in time for Saturnalia but doubt they will get here in time for the festivities. I encourage everyone to take a look at those sites posted by Maior you will really be satisfied by the items sold there.

Lucius Iulius Regulus


----- Original Message ----
From: Maior <rory12001@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 11:19:18 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: How to handle the Lararium

Salve Regule:
here you go, really any good wiccan shop usually has this stuff.
Tablets, a burner, put sand in the burner, which is nice and safe.
Here's a link to a very nice shop:

http://www.somaluna .com/ They have some really nice burners, the
Etruscan one is definitely to my taste...

and here are more resin incenses
http://www.incenseg uru.com/nu_ essence.html
scroll down for Kyphi - this is the recipe that the Egyptians
burned in their temples. I got the link off an ancient perfumes list.
bene vale
Maior

>
> Salve,
>
> I was also interested in using coal lamps in my home but was
always afraid of burning down my house :-). I have also tried to
find the 'powdered incense'(I'm not sure if that is what they call
it) that is thrown on the coal to burn. If you or anyone can provide
information on finding it then it will be great help. Thanks in
advance.
>
> Lucius Iulius Regulus
> Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "M. Lucretius Agricola" <wm_hogue@.. .>
>
> Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 02:08:58
> To:Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: How to handle the Lararium
>
>
> Salve!
>
> You said "I want to use real charcoal".
>
> I just want to warn you that you should not use the charcoal that
is
> sold for cooking outdoors. It is not suitable for indoor use at
all.
> You can buy little charcoal disks that are made just for this
purpose.
> I know that they are easy to find by mail order in the USA. Here
in
> Japan it is common to have Buddhist altars in the home, so I can
get
> this stuff anywhere. Most shopping centers have a little store for
> these things. I'm sure you can find something safe.
>
> Whatever kind of tripod or turibulum (or lucerna for that matter)
that
> you use, I suggest that you do as I do. I have a small, shallow
metal
> bowl that is is full of coarse sand to within 1 cm of the top that
> serves as a base. If a turibulum becomes too hot, the sand
insulates
> it. If an oil lamp breaks or spills, the bowl catches the oil and
the
> sand soaks it up.
>
> You might get more ideas from the photos here:
> http://www.novaroma <http://www.novaroma .org/nr/Lararium _%
28Nova_Roma% 29> .org/nr/Lararium_ %28Nova_Roma% 29
>
> Optime vale!
>
> Agricola
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou <mailto:Nova- Roma%40yahoogrou ps.com>
ps.com, "adriano.rota" <adriano.rota@ > wrote:
> >
> > Salvete omnes,
> >
> > I am about to bild a Lararium. What interests me is how has the
hot
> > coals been handeled? I guess it was not an agrivating "how can
I get
> > them glowing or burning ar create a flame" to an extend where I
can
> > burn sacrifices or scents?
> >
> > How do the experienced guys out there handle that?(I want to
use real
> > charcoal)
> > Or how did the Romans most likely do it? Did they take glowing
coal out
> > of their anyways burning fires?
> >
> > Do one let it burn after the prayer ...??
> >
> > Adriano Rota M. A.
> >
>





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53628 From: Svm Stoicus Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Fine
Salvete omnes,
for Cato

my learned friend, last time we very often discuss about Christianity and Christ and their relationship to Nova Roma. I must say that I am not Christian and I suppose that this faith changed ancient Rome to worse. But I think that this change didnt come bacause of christianity faith was bad but romans ancient lost virtue and people found new idea. But I suppose that christianity dont have some political way, faith of Christ is question hearts not politicals system.

Valete

Sextus Lucilius Tutor

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53629 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Re: Fine
Cato L. Iulio Regulo sal.

Salve Iulius Regulus.

The very heart of the matter is here:

"If the story of Easter is told, Christmas, or any other Christian
holiday that has its roots deep within the origins of other
religions, then that side should be expressed so as to encourage a
greater knowledge in ones religion. Then we wouldnt have people half
informed roaming the Earth of what their religion truly is. Why is it
wrong to expand the intelligence of a growing mind?? Why is it wrong
to ask for better religious education, no matter what religion??"

Regulus: your leap from what a Roman Catholic parochial school teaches
to the assumption that it is wrong and that it should be teaching
other religious traditions is a fallacious argument: "This apple tree
is not being fair because oranges are better than apples - why can't
it grow apples *and* oranges and make everyone happy and let them
enjoy a variety of delicious healthy fruits? Doesn't this apple tree
want everyone to be happy and healthy?"

Christianity teaches what it does specifically because it believes
that what it offers is the single most perfect possible culmination of
every human need as they have been expressed in various ways -
religion, philosophy - over the millenia of our existence. The hopes
and expectations of thousands of years grew within the hearts and
minds of mankind, searching, waiting, expressing itself in flashes of
the truth and glimmers of light, finally bursting into glorious,
brilliant reality when the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. It
has its "roots" in the Person of Jesus Christ. Nothing else is needed.

You want Christians to know what "their religion truly is"? We do
know, and we rejoice.

Vale,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53630 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Re: How to handle the Lararium
Agricola Dextri sal.

I have been looking for info on the orientation of surviving lararia
in Pompeii, Herculaneum and Ostia and I have found nothing. Frankly, I
doubt that compass orientation was a factor in homes. I admit that the
situation may have been different for public temples.

I know that it is not much of an answer, but it is an answer.

optime vale!


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Petronius Dexter"
<jfarnoud94@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete omnes,
>
> > I am about to bild a Lararium.
>
> And I too.
>
> My question about my lararium was:
>
> I want to put my private altar, Lararium meum, in my kitchen near the
> cooker. The wall I choose is east-facing. Is-it "fas" (correct with the
> divine laws) to have an altar east-facing or not ?
>
> but I had no answer...
>
> G.Petronius Dexter.
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53631 From: marcushoratius Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Re: How to handle the Lararium
Salvete

Sorry I didn't see these earlier.

Orienting the home, or really a country estate, was important for
various reasons. Pliny gives the method in Historia Naturalis 18.76-
77 when discussing the winds. The Romans do not seem to have been as
particular on orienting temples as were the Greeks and Egyptians, but
it was not entirely unknown among them either. In Rome, street
planning was haphazard. Livy gives one reason as the rebuilding of
the City after the Gallic sack. Orientation was not so important,
and how they considered it was not so exact as we would think today.

Ideally a house is to have its front door facing east. From the
East, Janus first arrives, bearing light, to lead the celestial Gods
into the World each day. A shrine to Janus was placed at the front
door (even if the house did not face this direction) and the lararium
was likewise placed near the front door. At the opposite end of the
house was the penus where a shrine would be set up for the Penates.
This would be the same as the pantry that supplied the kitchen.

A lararium, strictly speaking, is a shrine to your ancestors. Lares
are associated with the lower portion of the sky in a north-easternly
direction, below where Jupiter is associated. This has to do with
the passage of the Milky Way near the Pole Star, associated with
Caelus Nocturnus. The Milky Way was called the celestial Via Sacra
in Ovid's Metamorphoses, where he speaks about the heroes of Roma
antiqua living there among the Gods, as they were
themselves "plebeian" or lesser celstial gods.

A kitchen, comparable to earlier Roman houses with their hearths,
would in a sense have a shrine for Vesta, namely the hearth. The
larder would not necessarily have a shrine with images and such, but
a place to leave offerings to the Penates. In early Roman homes, and
in poorer ones, the hearth also served as the lararium. Images of
the lares did not come into use, as far as we know, until the Late
Republic or early in the Principate. The only images that are
available today, whether bronze statues or paintings, come from the
Principate.

If instead you are talking about a sacellum for celestial deities,
again, near the front door would be appropriate to invite Themm into
your home. The Eastern side of your home could be used if you are
able to view the sunrise and welcome the Gods into the World each
day. The northern side of the house could be used as it is
associated with the abode of the Gods.

In contrast, outside, an altar set up for Manes who are *not* your
Lares, such as the Lemures who are given their due at Feralia and
Lemuria, would be oriented such that you would face west, at night
rather than the day. Rites for the Manes are to be performed between
Midnight and dawn on a specified day. The West iis faced as it
relates to the Milky Way once more, descending into the "Underworld"
which is actually the portion of the sky that lies beneath the
celestial equator.

Valete
M Moravius Piscinus



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "M. Lucretius Agricola"
<wm_hogue@...> wrote:
>
> Agricola Dextri sal.
>
> I have been looking for info on the orientation of surviving lararia
> in Pompeii, Herculaneum and Ostia and I have found nothing.
Frankly, I
> doubt that compass orientation was a factor in homes. I admit that
the
> situation may have been different for public temples.
>
> I know that it is not much of an answer, but it is an answer.
>
> optime vale!
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Petronius Dexter"
> <jfarnoud94@> wrote:
> >
> > Salvete omnes,
> >
> > > I am about to bild a Lararium.
> >
> > And I too.
> >
> > My question about my lararium was:
> >
> > I want to put my private altar, Lararium meum, in my kitchen near
the
> > cooker. The wall I choose is east-facing. Is-it "fas" (correct
with the
> > divine laws) to have an altar east-facing or not ?
> >
> > but I had no answer...
> >
> > G.Petronius Dexter.
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53632 From: Titus Flavius Aquila Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: AW: [Nova-Roma] Re: Fine
Titus Flavius Aquila Maior Caton Regulo,

I fully support the statement of Senatrix Maior !


I was enjoying the broad discussion about philosophy, history and
many religions not the truth/falsity of someone named Jesus.It's
your cultus go and enjoy it!


Valete optime
Titus Flavius Aquila
Tribunus Plebis
Scriba Censoris KFBM


----- Ursprüngliche Mail ----
Von: Maior <rory12001@...>
An: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Gesendet: Samstag, den 15. Dezember 2007, 03:21:12 Uhr
Betreff: [Nova-Roma] Re: Fine

Maior Caton Regulo sal;
here's what the actual text of Lucian says:
11. "It was then that he learned the wondrous lore of the
Christians, by associating with their priests and scribes in
Palestine. And—how else could it be?—in a trice he made them all
look like children, for he was prophet, cult-leader, head of the
synagogue, and everything, all by himself. He inter preted and
explained some of their books and even composed many, and they
revered him as a god, made use of him as a lawgiver, and set him
down as a protector, next after that other, to be sure, whom11 they
still worship, the man who was crucified in Palestine because he
introduced this new cult into the world.
http://www.tertulli an.org/rpearse/ lucian/peregrinu s.htm

He's reporting what others believe, it doesn't mean it is true or
not true. The only witness to Moses, David, all the Hebrew Prophets
are the Hebrew Scriptures written by pious Jews, it's not
independent evidence; they are biased. And there is none, until an
independent inscription or piece of evidence is found, which is fine.

Actually Lucian is an Epicurean and wrote a very funny book on Dea
Syria and the Syrian beliefs..'Dea Dea Syria';

"A man goes up one of these pillars twice a year and stays at the
top of the pillar for the period of seven days. And they say the
cause of his going up is this. Common folk believe that he speaks
with the gods on high and asks boons for all Syria, and the gods
hear his prayers from so near."

When Nabarz came, Cato you didn't ask him any questions about
Mithras, his Virgin Mother Anahita, Judgement or Ressurection. Why
not? The rational man or woman, the thoughtful man or woman has no
problem with these questions or a diversity of answers.

I was enjoying the broad discussion about philosophy, history and
many religions not the truth/falsity of someone named Jesus.It's
your cultus go and enjoy it!
bene vale
Maior

> "...not only does Lucian know the practices of Christianity
(brotherly
> love, belief in immortality, contempt of death, worship of Christ)
but
> assumes his audience is familiar with 'their first lawgiver...the
> crucified sophist' (op. cit. 13) - and note also that he refers to
> Christ as a singular individual with a singular and particular
> geographical history...here is one Classical author who writes
about a
> particular individual Who taught specific things in a specific
place
> and suffered a particular kind of death; his detestation of
> Christianity could have easily found an outlet in simply saying
that
> the Christians were fools above all else because they based their
> faith in Someone Who never existed."
>
> Much, much more. He is predicating his entire argument against
> Christianity on the assumption that his audience knows about the
> cult's founder's place in real history. No miracles, no drama,
> nothing except - basically - "remember that this guy taught a
bunch of
> stuff, riled up the neighbors, and got crucified in Palestine for
it."
>
> I notice that you don't mention the Gospels either. Before you
dash
> off something in response, re-read what I have written, and
consider -
> very carefully - the overwhelming majority opinion of actual
literary
> and historical textual criticism, done by actual historians and
> literary critics.
>
>
> Iulius Regulus, if you went to a Roman Catholic school you should
act
> somewhat less than surprised that you were taught Roman Catholic
> doctrine - which, unless I've really missed the boat somewhere,
> accepts not only the existence of, but also declares the divinity
of,
> Jesus. And remember the bit about "extra ecclesiam nulla salus
est."
> If you had gone to a Yeshiva, my guess is that you *probably*
would
> have come out knowing Hebrew. You say you have no axe to grind
then
> proceed to grind it quite nicely for the next paragraph.
>
> And you missed - entirely and magnificently - my point about the
> article in the newspapers. Fabius Modianus hit the nail square on
the
> head.
>
> Valete,
>
> Cato
>
> P.S. - Iulius Regulus, you even missed the point of my reference to
> Michael Corleone; perhaps the single most famous quote from "The
> Godfather III". That makes me sad. GEC
>





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53633 From: Vestinia, called Vesta Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Re: The Myth of Fiorella LaGuardia (OT: and silly)
--- Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@...> wrote:
> I've seen the Weekly World News expose of that ridiculous story.
> Why, we might as well believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster!

Sacriledge! Blasphemy! Heresy!

All Hail His Noodly Appendage!

Ramen. Arrrrr.

Vestinia


____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53634 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Re: How to handle the Lararium
Salve M. Moravi Piscine,

> Sorry I didn't see these earlier.

I wrote my question on the topic : My first caeremonia, on Idibus
Decembribus, message #53567.

> Ideally a house is to have its front door facing east.

I am living in an apartment but my door is facing east.

> A lararium, strictly speaking, is a shrine to your ancestors.
Lares
> are associated with the lower portion of the sky in a north-
easternly
> direction, below where Jupiter is associated.

Ok. I know where I can put my lararium.

> A kitchen, comparable to earlier Roman houses with their hearths,
> would in a sense have a shrine for Vesta, namely the hearth. The
> larder would not necessarily have a shrine with images and such,
but
> a place to leave offerings to the Penates.

Ok. I put a shrine for Vesta and the Penates in my kitchen near my
cooker... sorry ! my hearth.

Tibi maximas gratias ago quia deorum cultui doctissimus fuisti.
Vale.

G. Petronius Dexter.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53635 From: sstevemoore Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Orientation
M. Valerius Potitus omnibus SPD.

Salvete, omnes.

I think we should take a practical approach to the issue of orienting
temples, altars, aedicula, lararia, etc. Facing east is the ideal, but
it's not as important as some people make it out to be.

I learned how to relax over the "must face the east" issue by looking
at the notoriously detail-oriented (read "fussy") pre-Vatican II
Catholic church. If there was any group who had the reason and the
means to orient their churches, it was the Catholic church.

In the musty Catholic Encyclopedia (1911), we read, "Thus from the
earliest period the custom of locating the apse and altar in the
eastern extremity of the church was the rule." But, and it's a big
but, "Yet the great Roman Basilicas of the Lateran, St. Peter's, St.
Paul's (originally), St. Lorenzo's, as well as the Basilica of the
Resurrection in Jerusalem and the basilicas of Tyre and Antioch,
reversed this rule by placing the apse in the western extremity."

In my home city of Phoenix, Arizona, nearly all the old churches do
not "face east". The oldest, St.Mary's, faces north. St. Franis Xavier
and St. Gregory's face north and west, respectively, when the street
plan and the availability of open land would have easily allowed them
to face east, if the builders wanted to. And the lovely chapel of
Brophy School, built in the 1930s by people who had open land and
plenty of money, faces south. St. Agnes and St. Thomas face west,
etc., etc.

My point is: if the Catholic church, with motive and means, treated
orientation so lightly, then it's not something to be overly concerned
with. It's far more important to honor the gods than to face in a
certain direction.

Valete,
Potitus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53636 From: GAIVS IVLIANVS Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Re: How to handle the Lararium
Salvete Omnes! From what I have learned from Roman
Religion scholars in Italy is that it isn't necessary
to have a separate shrine for Vesta and the Penates!
The Penates and Vesta Mater can ALL be worshipped with
the Lares in the Lararium! The definition of the
Penates is that They are ALL the Gods that are
worshipped in your Domus! They are the chosen Gods
that you or your family decides to honor such as
Venus, Mars, Apollo etc... which also includes the
deity of your Gens.
According to the Mos Maiorum the Lares are
honored with fire (as is Vesta Mater), the Genius with
wine and the Penates with incense. The Penates see to
it that you have plenty of food and drink and
prosperity. The Lares are the ancestral spirits of the
family hearth connected with the founding ancestors of
your family. Every man has his Genius as does every
woman her Iuno. At my own Lararium I have a Roman copy
of a terracotta oil lamp that represents Vesta. Two
twin Lares statues stand on each side inside my
Lararium along with my Penates such as Iuppiter, Mars,
Diana etc... The Lararium is in the Northeast close to
my apartment front door which faces east. On festivals
and the Kalendae, Nonae and Idus I burn little spelt
cakes with one or two bay leaves on incense charcoal
in my turibulum and crown my Lares statues with little
coronae of rosemary (Horace mentions doing this). On
the Idus I honor Iuppiter Optimus Maximus with putting
some drops of wine onto the spelt cake with the usual
salt and pour Him a Libation of wine as the main
offering to Him and some incense. Valete! Gaivs
Ivlianvs
--- Gaius Petronius Dexter <jfarnoud94@...>
wrote:

> Salve M. Moravi Piscine,
>
> > Sorry I didn't see these earlier.
>
> I wrote my question on the topic : My first
> caeremonia, on Idibus
> Decembribus, message #53567.
>
> > Ideally a house is to have its front door facing
> east.
>
> I am living in an apartment but my door is facing
> east.
>
> > A lararium, strictly speaking, is a shrine to your
> ancestors.
> Lares
> > are associated with the lower portion of the sky
> in a north-
> easternly
> > direction, below where Jupiter is associated.
>
> Ok. I know where I can put my lararium.
>
> > A kitchen, comparable to earlier Roman houses with
> their hearths,
> > would in a sense have a shrine for Vesta, namely
> the hearth. The
> > larder would not necessarily have a shrine with
> images and such,
> but
> > a place to leave offerings to the Penates.
>
> Ok. I put a shrine for Vesta and the Penates in my
> kitchen near my
> cooker... sorry ! my hearth.
>
> Tibi maximas gratias ago quia deorum cultui
> doctissimus fuisti.
> Vale.
>
> G. Petronius Dexter.
>
>



____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53637 From: Marcus Arminius Maior Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Recognition of new priesthoods
Salvete

I, Marcus Arminius Maior, as a Lictor of Nova Roma, hereby witness the
appointments of Flavius Galerius Aurelianus and Marcus Moravius
Piscinus Horatianus as Pontifices of Nova Roma. As a member of the
Comitia Curiata, I wish them good fortune in their offices and in
their work on behalf of the Religio Romana.

Valete
Marcus Arminius Maior
Lictor
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53638 From: Gens Iulia Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Re: The Myth of Fiorella LaGuardia - Christos Anubis
Oh!!... Isn't the Flying Spaghetti Monster real??. Thinking that we were about to order some t-shirts... :-(

Salvete:
Maybe the point is... which "Jesus" we might or might not consider as a "real person"?.
Personally speaking, I think there was a rabbi Yeshua bn Yusheph (my transliteration might be a bit faulty) who had followers living somewhere in the far province of Palestine. He might have stated a few things which made him look like one of the many rebels against Roman occupation, or even like the Messiah. I'd recommend, for those who can read Spanish, D. Gonzalo Maeso's research on Mesianism (http://canalsocial.net/index.asp).
Then... Modianus rightly mentioned Judas' Gospel, as well as other I had already mentioned, like Thomas, Philip, Pistis Sophia (Mead's version available in PDF format), and so on. There are also accounts of other "miracle men", like Apollonio of Tiana, Simon Magus and so one.
As well as other true "sincretic" worships: Jean Riviere, in "Amulettes, talismans and pantacles", Payot, 1972, Paris (Sp. Edition Martinez Roca, 1974, Barcelona, Spain) describes a seal at the Berlin Museum, depicting ORPHEOS BAKKIKOS hanging from a cross in a very Christian-like fashion. He also mentions a jewel at Würzboug, showing an image of the Good Shepherd in one side with "Iesus" written below, while the other side had Egyptian God Horus' face (another Deity celebrated on December 25th) with the inscription "Christos" below. A papyri in Leyden has an invocation to "Christos Anubis", according to this author.
My point is that those early times weren't as "clear cut" as we might think (or are taught). We simply cannot know which "Christos" such and such early historian was describing, or actually which deeds were performed for the aforesaid rabbi, or other "miracle men", or even invented for their followers to give credibility to their message. After all, as it happens nowadays many times, a message, no matter how truthful or valuable can be, it might need some suitable "packaging" for the general public. Maybe that's what some followers (including Saul of Tarsus... funny that he came from a place frequented by Cilician pirates, who were also followers of Mithras) did. Who can actually know?.
Faith, as some have mentioned, shouldn't come from finding Mithras' Phrygian cap, or Jupiter's thunderbolts, but from within our hearts. For that warm feeling we get when we pray, that we are not speaking to an empty wall.
Valete!.
Gaia Iulia Agrippa.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Gnaeus Equitius Marinus" <gawne@...>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 12:41 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] The Myth of Fiorella LaGuardia


> Gaius Equitius Cato <mlcinnyc@...> writes:
>
> > [...] if I pick up a copy of the
> > NY Times, The Post, and The Daily News, each with exactly the same
> > picture on the front page, there are going to be very interesting
> > differences in each one's portrayal of the event that occurred; they
> > are each writing to different audiences and emphasize different
> > aspects. That doesn't mean the event never occurred. GEC
>
> Oh, come on Cato! Next you're going to try to tell us that Fiorella
> LaGuardia was a real person who was really the mayor of New York.
> I've seen the Weekly World News expose of that ridiculous story. Why,
> we might as well believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster!
>
>
> CN-EQVIT-MARINVS
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.2/1185 - Release Date: 15/12/07 12:00 p.m.
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53639 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Re: a. d. XVIII Kalendas Ianuaris
G. Petronius Dexter M. Moravio Piscino Horatiano SPD.
S.V.B.E.E.V.

> Hodie est ante diem XVIII Kalendas Ianuaris; haec dies nefastus est:
> Consualia; ara Fortunae Reduci dedicata

I do not want to seem troublesome and unpleasant, especially as I am
lost in admiration for your deep knowledge of the Roman calendar and
the rituals, but the word Ianuarius is an adjective from the first
declension like bonus, bona, bonum. The good way to write a date is
a(nte) d(iem) XVIII Kal(endas) Ian(uarias).

Ianuaris is not possible. You can Ianuariis (ablative and dative
plurial). Like in Kalendis Ianuariis, Nonis Ianuariis, Idibus Ianuariis.

Cura ut valeas et Dei immortales tibi faveant !

G. Petronius Dexter.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53640 From: marcushoratius Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Re: Orientation
Salve Potite

The point is that you face towards the direction of the Gods during
ritual. If you were making offerings to Neptunus, you would face
towards the sea or a nearby river. If to Silvanus, then you would
face towards a nearby forest. If to celestial Gods you might orient
on the sky in which their mundane forms may be seen. As the planet
Mars comes into your view, you might look upon it as an image of
Pater Mars, or the same with Venus, or Bella Luna. Springs, caves,
chasms, mountains were all oriented upon. It is just a natural sort
of orienting on to the Gods, not in a rigidly formal way but in an
understanding of how the Romans viewed the world around them.

The significance of the East in orienting during ritual was due to
how the Romans generally awoke early and would great the Gods near
dawn. They looked in the direction of the majesty and splendor of
sunrise as the appearance of the Shining Ones entered their World
each day. These Shining Ones were the Argeii, the Aisnii of Oscan-
speaking tribes or Etruscan Aisna. *East* itself is relative. First,
at dawn, since the sun's rise on the horizon shifts each day
according to season. Secondly, in the period of the year that is most
propitious, from the vernal equinox to the autumnal equinox, the
sun's movement along the horizon is towards the north. *East* then
encompasses the direction towards the northeasternmost point on the
horizon in your location, by latitude, where the sun and/or moon
rise, and down to due east. Observing the movement of the sun in any
season, because it is rising throughout the morning hours from east
to west, then the entire quadrant from due east to due south is
regarded as *East*, hm, maybe let us say that it is "ritual East."
In practice this ritual east changes each day, each season, and at
every occasion.

There is reason, too, to observe the glorious sunsets and be awed by
the Gods, or to wonder at the stars at night. So there are many
natural observances you could make and be orienting on a ritual
East.

It is true that the temples and altars in Rome do not appear to
follow any rules on orienting for ritual purposes. It is somewhat
different in Roman colonies, as these were oriented, but the reason
is not due to ritual. The Greeks did have a system for orienting
temples, employing various stars, star risings on specific dates,
cyclical planetary risings. The system would seem to date back to
the Bronze Age at the latest, across much of the Mediterranean
region, and traces of it remain in Sicily and Italy, predating the
Greeks' arrival there. The Romans surveyed land by orienting on the
four cardinal directions, which is what accounts for Roman
orientation more than anything they would have borrowed from Greeks
or retained from earlier customs of Italy. They did, of course,
borrow the whole concept of a street grid system for their colonies
from what was first developed for the Greek colonies of in Magna
Graecae. That grid system in itself was not ritualistic in content.
However, you should not dismiss that in performing ritual the Romans
would still have oriented themselves as they recorded.


Christian churches, in the Americas, distant from the center of
civilation, distant by centuries from a tradition that the Catholic
church reviled. What information you gave showed that orientation
was considered in the early churches, possibly as an inheritance from
the religio Romana, away from which Christianity then moved. That
would give more argument that the Romans did orient their temples,
but I do not think that true. The reality could be that the
orientation found with Christianity comes from the Hellenistic East.
The examples you offer of churches in your area I don't believe has
much relevance here.

Io Saturnalia! Io Triumphe!

Vale
Piscinus

PS: For those interested, I would recommend "The Sacred Geography of
the Ancient Greeks," by Jean Richter, trans. Christine Rhone, 1994,
ISBN 0-7914-2024-8 (pbk.). It explains a good deal on the Greek
orientation system, geographical symbols in Greek art, and how this
played into temple decoration.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "sstevemoore" <astrobear@...> wrote:
>
> M. Valerius Potitus omnibus SPD.
>
> Salvete, omnes.
>
> I think we should take a practical approach to the issue of
orienting
> temples, altars, aedicula, lararia, etc. Facing east is the ideal,
but
> it's not as important as some people make it out to be.
>
> I learned how to relax over the "must face the east" issue by
looking
> at the notoriously detail-oriented (read "fussy") pre-Vatican II
> Catholic church. If there was any group who had the reason and the
> means to orient their churches, it was the Catholic church.
>
> In the musty Catholic Encyclopedia (1911), we read, "Thus from the
> earliest period the custom of locating the apse and altar in the
> eastern extremity of the church was the rule." But, and it's a big
> but, "Yet the great Roman Basilicas of the Lateran, St. Peter's, St.
> Paul's (originally), St. Lorenzo's, as well as the Basilica of the
> Resurrection in Jerusalem and the basilicas of Tyre and Antioch,
> reversed this rule by placing the apse in the western extremity."
>
> In my home city of Phoenix, Arizona, nearly all the old churches do
> not "face east". The oldest, St.Mary's, faces north. St. Franis
Xavier
> and St. Gregory's face north and west, respectively, when the street
> plan and the availability of open land would have easily allowed
them
> to face east, if the builders wanted to. And the lovely chapel of
> Brophy School, built in the 1930s by people who had open land and
> plenty of money, faces south. St. Agnes and St. Thomas face west,
> etc., etc.
>
> My point is: if the Catholic church, with motive and means, treated
> orientation so lightly, then it's not something to be overly
concerned
> with. It's far more important to honor the gods than to face in a
> certain direction.
>
> Valete,
> Potitus
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53641 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Re: How to handle the Lararium: The Turibulum
The tool for burning incense is called a turibulum. It is a small to medium
diameter bowl that is usually partially filled with dry sand or dry clay
(unscented kitty litter works well) in which the charcoal fire is kindled. Once
the coals have burned down, you offer a few drops of milk, honey, or wine;
crumbled far cake; mola salsa; tiny bits of food from the family meal; etc.
Such sacrifices via the turibulum are meant for the Celestial Gods, the Lares,
Di Penates, Di Nixi, Di Constentes, but not the Manes, Di Inferni, or other
Chthonic Gods. Those sacrifices and offerings need to be buried in the earth
or poured out upon the earth.

I have two turibulum (a small pottery bowl about four inches in diameter for
the lararium & for small public rites) and a large one about twenty inches
in diameter of heavy clay that I use for large public rites requiring larger
offerings.

Please feel free to contact any of the pontifices, flamen, or sacerdoes
should you have additional questions.

Fl. Galerius Aurelianus Pontifex et Flamen



**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53642 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Re: Orientation
I am not sure that I would agree with you about Neptunus, Piscinus Pontifex.
Neptunus is the God in underground or hidden water sources and (later)
irrigation. We have absolutely no idea about the orientation of his shrine or
altars in the Circus Flaminus, so your suggestion doesn't really have a basis.
It was only after Neptunus' cultus was combined with Poseidon's would your
suggestion have some merit but then you would need to consider how the Greeks
oriented their altars and temples to Poseidon.

If you were discussing a Prayer to Portunus then you might face the Tiber
but since we know the orientation of the Temple of Portunus (because it still
exists), it would be easy to figure the orientation of the altar.

Aurelianus Pontifex



**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53643 From: Adriano Rota Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Re: How to handle the Lararium: The Turibulum
Salvete Omnes,

I have raised this subject so that can better design my Lararium or altar.

Inside the turibulum burnes an open flame or does the coal only need to glow when sacrifices are burnt???

How, is it dependent on a necessary open visual flame or just glowing coal ignited?

As every one knows, coal is not so easy to be ignited, therefore it would take some time to get it nicely glowing I presume.
How does one handle that idealy without spending 30min. of preparation time for a little daily ceremony of 5 to 10 minutes?

I hope it is understood what my technical question (problem) ?

Thank you !

Adriano Rota M.A.


----- Original Message ----
From: "PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@..." <PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 5:04:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] How to handle the Lararium: The Turibulum

The tool for burning incense is called a turibulum. It is a small to medium
diameter bowl that is usually partially filled with dry sand or dry clay
(unscented kitty litter works well) in which the charcoal fire is kindled. Once
the coals have burned down, you offer a few drops of milk, honey, or wine;
crumbled far cake; mola salsa; tiny bits of food from the family meal; etc.
Such sacrifices via the turibulum are meant for the Celestial Gods, the Lares,
Di Penates, Di Nixi, Di Constentes, but not the Manes, Di Inferni, or other
Chthonic Gods. Those sacrifices and offerings need to be buried in the earth
or poured out upon the earth.

I have two turibulum (a small pottery bowl about four inches in diameter for
the lararium & for small public rites) and a large one about twenty inches
in diameter of heavy clay that I use for large public rites requiring larger
offerings.

Please feel free to contact any of the pontifices, flamen, or sacerdoes
should you have additional questions.

Fl. Galerius Aurelianus Pontifex et Flamen

************ ********* ********* ********See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food. aol.com/top- rated-recipes? NCID=aoltop00030 000000004)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53644 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Re: a. d. XVIII Kalendas Ianuaris
OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Here's a bit more about the Consualia celebrated today (Neptune is one
of my favorite gods mostly because I like both horses and the ocean so
much):

"The Roman youth [Romulus] could ill brook such insults, and matters
began to look like an appeal to force. To secure a favorable place
and time for such an attempt, Romulus, disguising his resentment, made
elaborate preparations for the celebration of games in honor of
'Equestrian Neptune,' which he called 'the Consualia.' He ordered
public notice of the spectacle to be given amongst the adjoining
cities, and his people supported him in making the celebration as
magnificent as their knowledge and resources allowed, so that
expectations were raised to the highest pitch." - Livy, History of
Rome 1.9

"Moreover, they assigned a precinct to the Equestrian Neptune and
instituted the festival called by the Arcadians Hippocrateia and by
the Romans Consualia, during which it is customary among the latter
for the horses and mules to rest from work and to have their heads
crowned with flowers." - Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Roman Antiquities
1.32

"And the Romans even to my day continued to celebrate the festival
then instituted by Romulus, calling it the Consualia, in the course of
which a subterranean altar, erected near the Circus Maximus, is
uncovered by the removal of the soil round about it and honored with
sacrifices and burnt-offerings of first-fruits and a course is run
both by horses yoked to chariots and by single horses. The god to whom
these honors are paid is called Consus by the Romans, being the same,
according to some who render the name into our tongue, as Poseidon
Seisichthon or the "Earth-shaker"; and they say that this god was
honoured with a subterranean altar because he holds the earth. I know
also from hearsay another tradition, to the effect that the festival
is indeed celebrated in honor of Neptune and the horse-races are held
in his honor, but that the subterranean altar was erected later to a
certain divinity whose name may not be uttered, who presides over and
is the guardian of hidden counsels; for a secret altar has never been
erected to Neptune, they say, in any part of the world by either
Greeks or barbarians. But it is hard to say what the truth of the
matter is." - op. cit. II.31


"Why is it that at festival of the Consualia they place garlands on
both the horses and the asses and allow them to rest?
Is it because they celebrate this festival in honour of Poseidon, god
of horses, and the ass enjoys a share in the horse's exemption? Or is
it that since navigation and transport by sea have been discovered,
pack animals have come to enjoy a certain measure of ease and rest?" -
Plutarch, Moralia, "Roman Questions" 48


It was said that during the first celebration of the Consualia, the
Rape of the Sabine women occurred:

"Atque haec quidem perceleriter confecit; nam et urbem constituit,
quam e suo nomine Romam iussit nominari, et ad firmandam novam
civitatem novum quoddam et subagreste consilium, sed ad muniendas opes
regni ac populi sui magni hominis et iam tum longe providentis secutus
est, cum Sabinas honesto ortas loco virgines, quae Romam ludorum
gratia venissent, quos tum primum anniversarios in circo facere
instituisset Consualibus, rapi iussit, easque in familiarum
amplissimarum matrimoniis collocavit." - Cicero, de Republica, II.12

"Then, having laid his plan before the senate and gaining their
approval, he announced that he would hold a festival and general
assemblage in honor of Neptune, and he sent word round about to the
nearest cities, inviting all who wished to do so to be present at the
assemblage and to take part in the increases; for he was going to hold
contests of all sorts, both between horses and between men. section
4And when many strangers came with their wives and children to the
festival, he first offered the sacrifices to Neptune and held the
contests: then, on the last day, on which he was to dismiss the
assemblage, he ordered the young men, when he himself should raise the
signal, to seize all the virgins who had come to the spectacle, each
group taking those they should first encounter, to keep them that
night without violating their chastity and bring them to him the next
day. section 5So the young men divided themselves into several groups,
and as soon as they saw the signal raised, fell to seizing the
virgins; and straightway the strangers were in an uproar and fled,
suspecting some greater mischief. The next day, when the virgins were
brought before Romulus, he comforted them in their despair with the
assurance that they had been seized, not out of wantonness, but for
the purpose of marriage; for he pointed out that this was an ancient
Greek custom and that of all methods of contracting marriages for
women it was the most illustrious, and he asked them to cherish those
whom Fortune had given them for their husbands." - Dionysus of
Halicarnassus, Roman Antiquities 2.30

"First, he [Romulus] gave it out as if he had found an altar of a
certain god hid under ground; the god they called Consus, either the
god of counsel (for they still call a consultation consilium, and
their chief magistrates consules, namely, counsellors), or else the
equestrian Neptune, for the altar is kept covered in the Circus
Maximus at all other times, and only at horse-races is exposed to
public view; others merely say that this god had his altar hid under
ground because counsel ought to be secret and concealed. Upon
discovery of this altar, Romulus, by proclamation, appointed a day for
a splendid sacrifice, and for public games and shows, to entertain all
sorts of people: many flocked thither, and he himself sat in front,
amidst his nobles clad in purple. Now the signal for their falling on
was to be whenever he rose and gathered up his robe and threw it over
his body; his men stood all ready armed, with their eyes intent upon
him, and when the sign was given, drawing their swords and falling on
with a great shout they ravished away the daughters of the Sabines,
they themselves flying without any let or hindrance. They say there
were but thirty taken, and from them the Curiae or Fraternities were
named; but Valerius Antias says five hundred and twenty-seven, Juba,
six hundred and eighty-three virgins: which was indeed the greatest
excuse Romulus could allege, namely, that they had taken no married
woman, save one only, Hersilia by name, and her too unknowingly; which
showed that they did not commit this rape wantonly, but with a design
purely of forming alliance with their neighbours by the greatest and
surest bonds." - Plutarch, Parallel Lives, "Romulus"


Valete bene!

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53645 From: phoenixfyre17 Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Re: How to handle the Lararium: The Turibulum
Salve Adriano,

You would not want to be using regular coal, but rather charcoal
discs that you can purchase at most new age, pagan, wiccan shops.
Never burn regular coal inside your house! It can be poisonous to
inhale the fumes it releases when they are concentrated in a room!

And with charcoal discs, they cannot hold a flame. You may choose
to add a candle for that or an oil lamp and gesture towards it but
place the actual offering on the charcoal disc.

Vale bene,
Nero

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Adriano Rota <adriano.rota@...>
wrote:
>
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> I have raised this subject so that can better design my Lararium
or altar.
>
> Inside the turibulum burnes an open flame or does the coal only
need to glow when sacrifices are burnt???
>
> How, is it dependent on a necessary open visual flame or just
glowing coal ignited?
>
> As every one knows, coal is not so easy to be ignited, therefore
it would take some time to get it nicely glowing I presume.
> How does one handle that idealy without spending 30min. of
preparation time for a little daily ceremony of 5 to 10 minutes?
>
> I hope it is understood what my technical question (problem) ?
>
> Thank you !
>
> Adriano Rota M.A.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: "PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@..." <PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...>
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 5:04:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] How to handle the Lararium: The Turibulum
>
> The tool for burning incense is called a turibulum. It is a small
to medium
> diameter bowl that is usually partially filled with dry sand or
dry clay
> (unscented kitty litter works well) in which the charcoal fire is
kindled. Once
> the coals have burned down, you offer a few drops of milk, honey,
or wine;
> crumbled far cake; mola salsa; tiny bits of food from the family
meal; etc.
> Such sacrifices via the turibulum are meant for the Celestial
Gods, the Lares,
> Di Penates, Di Nixi, Di Constentes, but not the Manes, Di Inferni,
or other
> Chthonic Gods. Those sacrifices and offerings need to be buried in
the earth
> or poured out upon the earth.
>
> I have two turibulum (a small pottery bowl about four inches in
diameter for
> the lararium & for small public rites) and a large one about
twenty inches
> in diameter of heavy clay that I use for large public rites
requiring larger
> offerings.
>
> Please feel free to contact any of the pontifices, flamen, or
sacerdoes
> should you have additional questions.
>
> Fl. Galerius Aurelianus Pontifex et Flamen
>
> ************ ********* ********* ********See AOL's top rated
recipes
> (http://food. aol.com/top- rated-recipes? NCID=aoltop00030
000000004)
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
_____________________________________________________________________
_______________
> Looking for last minute shopping deals?
> Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?
category=shopping
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53646 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Coal vs. Charcoal
Salve Nero,

You wrote:
> You would not want to be using regular coal, but rather charcoal
> discs that you can purchase at most new age, pagan, wiccan shops.
> Never burn regular coal inside your house! It can be poisonous to
> inhale the fumes it releases when they are concentrated in a room!

I think you mean regular charcoal here. Coal has been used as a home
heating fuel for centuries. Charcoal is the reduced product of wood
distillation, and puts off Carbon Monoxide (CO) when burned. Inhaling
CO will kill you if you inhale too much. It's still a common enough
error that you can read about it in newspapers whenever there's a
power failure due to winter weather and somebody decides to use their
leftover charcoal briquettes to heat the house.

The charcoal discs you mention have been baked to remove most of the
CO from them, so their combustion product is mostly Carbon Dioxide
(CO2).

Vale,

CN-EQVIT-MARINVS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53647 From: Ice Hunter Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Re: How to handle the Lararium: The Turibulum
Salve Adriano,

>As every one knows, coal is not so easy to be ignited, therefore it would take some >time to get it nicely glowing I presume.

The charcoal discs that have been mentioned by others are self-igniting (saltpeter has been added) and canned be used very soon after being lit.

Vale bene,
Artoria

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53648 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Re: How to handle the Lararium: The Turibulum
Cato Marcae Artoriae Fl. Galerio Aureliano SPD

Salvete.

Artoria Marcella, I'm guessing that the turibulum is obviously what is
called the "thurible" in English. Does a turibulum have different
forms (other than a matter of size, as Galerius Aurelianus mentioned
earlier)? By this I mean that "modern" thuribles are almost always
swung on chains during the liturgy - did the Romans use similar ones?

Valete,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53649 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Re: How to handle the Lararium: The Turibulum
Agricola Catoni sal.

Here in Asia they (turibula, thuribles) can be metal or ceramic. When
used in the butsudan (Buddhist altar) they are usually shaped like
bowls or squat little tripods, but a mad variety of forms are available.

Optime vale!

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Equitius Cato" <mlcinnyc@...>
wrote:
>
> Cato Marcae Artoriae Fl. Galerio Aureliano SPD
>
> Salvete.
>
> Artoria Marcella, I'm guessing that the turibulum is obviously what is
> called the "thurible" in English. Does a turibulum have different
> forms (other than a matter of size, as Galerius Aurelianus mentioned
> earlier)? By this I mean that "modern" thuribles are almost always
> swung on chains during the liturgy - did the Romans use similar ones?
>
> Valete,
>
> Cato
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53650 From: Ice Hunter Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Re: How to handle the Lararium: The Turibulum
Salve Cato et salvete omnes,

>By this I mean that "modern" thuribles are almost always
>swung on chains during the liturgy - did the Romans use similar ones?

Someone with superior knowledge will undoubedly respond to your question, but to the best of my (admittedly limited) knowledge, the Roman turibulum never had chains--it was not intended to be swung. There are drawings of some with handles, but not with chains. I've read that a turibulum might be suspended from cords during processions, but if it swung, it was probably more due to the laws of physics rather than any specific intent.

My own had neither handles or chains, but it looks nice and old and services me well.

Vale et valete optime
Artoria

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53651 From: Maior Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Re: How to handle the Lararium: The Turibulum
Maior Agricolae Catonique sal;
hmm let's see I've prepped round ceramic, the koro, rectangular
made from wood, forgot the name, then the nifty egoro which has a
long handle and a round end attached.
I've used the good stuff, and the not so good & raked the sand
in them and taken the ash out. I actually loved prepping the
Buddhist incense burners when I was training.
During a service the place was thick with 'incense clouds'
bliss:)
bene valete
Maior

> Here in Asia they (turibula, thuribles) can be metal or ceramic.
When
> used in the butsudan (Buddhist altar) they are usually shaped like
> bowls or squat little tripods, but a mad variety of forms are
available.
>
> Optime vale!
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Equitius Cato" <mlcinnyc@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Cato Marcae Artoriae Fl. Galerio Aureliano SPD
> >
> > Salvete.
> >
> > Artoria Marcella, I'm guessing that the turibulum is obviously
what is
> > called the "thurible" in English. Does a turibulum have
different
> > forms (other than a matter of size, as Galerius Aurelianus
mentioned
> > earlier)? By this I mean that "modern" thuribles are almost
always
> > swung on chains during the liturgy - did the Romans use similar
ones?
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > Cato
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53652 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Re: How to handle the Lararium: The Turibulum
Self-igniting incense charcoals have been available for years. It is not
even necessary to use the whole disk because even a half will do the job. The
lucerna or oil lamp (candle) is the starting point for it is by the flame that
Vesta is evoked. The charcoal is kindled by the Vesta's flame.

However, it is not necessary that the turibulum be used each and every time
one prays at the lararium. Unless you prepared a flame that continues to
burn, it is inappropriate to kindle a flame on dies atri. There are days on
which sacrifice is forbidden.

One can simply light the lucerna, offer a prayer, and extinguish the
lucerna. A burnt sacrifice or offering is not required every day but if you feel
that it is, use small incense sticks or cakes containing a self igniting agent.
It is charcoal, it is incense, it is turbulum--all in one.

Aurelianus Pontifex



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53653 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Re: How to handle the Lararium: The Turibulum
A turibulum is the Latin word for a thurible and thuribles can be both
standing, hanging, or swung. All three types were used in ancient Rome.

Aurelianus Pontifex

__________________________________





Cato Marcae Artoriae Fl. Galerio Aureliano SPD

Salvete.

Artoria Marcella, I'm guessing that the turibulum is obviously what is
called the "thurible" in English. Does a turibulum have different
forms (other than a matter of size, as Galerius Aurelianus mentioned
earlier)? By this I mean that "modern" thuribles are almost always
swung on chains during the liturgy - did the Romans use similar ones?

Valete,

Cato







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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53654 From: Q. Caecilius Metellus Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: Re: How to Handle the Lararium
Q. Caecilius Metellus Omnibus salutem.

Again, it's always so heart-warming to see a discussion on the sacra, and
particularly the sacra domestica. The sacra domestica aren't exactly the most
documented that we have (and especially so in the periods before the Imperial
era), so most of my answers are based less on the historical and more on the
spiritual factors (part of my nature, perhaps), but I'll still give the best
answers I can.

First, to Gaius Petronius, who asked:

> Is-it "fas" (correct with the divine laws) to have an altar east-facing or
> not ?


I've seen a few responses that go around your question, but I haven't seen a
direct answer to this (of course, I'm an old chap that's getting more blind as
the days go on in my old age, so I could easily miss something :)) My answer to
your question is that, theoretically, it would be fas to face your private
worship in any direction. The specific direction chosen depends on the
"contract" drawn between yourself and the deities you choose to worship. The
literature we have bears us the unavoidable fact that the Sacra Publica, and the
entirety of the public cult (the pax deum) was something of a contract between
the State and the Gods; so too would be the case with the sacra privata and the
sacra domestica. Therefore, whether or not it is fas depends on nothing other
than the agreement made between you and your chosen deities on how you are to
worship them. The same is true of your exact placement, words chosen in
addressing, options for vestments in worship, etc. My instinct would be to say
that it is fas, but I don't believe that I'm privy to your divine contracts, so
it's all the more difficult for me to say precisely. I am, though, more than
willing to lend whatever assistance I can for you on your private sacra, so feel
free to drop me a line if you'd like, and I'll be happy to do what I can.

Second, on the timing of igniting your burning apparatus: For myself, I have
always tended to mix this in with my other preparations. Depending on what is
required of the caerimonia I'm performing, I've lit things variably, between a
quick "pre-preparation" and my morning shower, and between the time I come out
of the shower and before I put together my toga, or while I'm preparing the wine
and/or other offerings, so that I'm not left waiting idly for things to be
ready. In one of my previous apartments, I performed all my caerimoniae for the
State at the back of my building. Since I lived on the third floor, I would
carry out my altar, light my charcoal, then go back upstairs to continue
bringing out more of the necessities. It's all about a timing that works best
for you.

About burning charcoal: Others have already pointed out that the more widely
available (and, in my opinion, better) option is the charcoal discs sold in a
number of shops. Despite their comparative safety when compared to using
charcoal briquettes, I would still certainly advise using them in nothing short
of a reasonably ventilated area. Even in freezing temperatures (and, as anyone
who knows me well will tell you, I get cold quickly!), I've always opened a
window in any indoor caerimonia when burning charcoal, or performed outside. No
sense in potentially killing someone in all this!

On setting up your burning apparatus: I bought, some years ago, a number of
basic bowls (soup/cereal bowls, yes), and designated two of them specifically
for this purpose. These I've filled with sand to place my charcoal on while
burning. Over the past four years I haven't had any problems.

This leads me to my last item for response, putting out whatever is burning.
I've usually let my items burn themselves out, though in some cases, this has
been impractical. In those cases, since I usually know beforehand that such
will be the case, I have brought some water to douse whatever is burning, with a
short prayer to explain myself. Again, at that same previously mentioned
apartment, there were a lot of trees around, so I generally poured the wet sand
with my then doused charcoal and incense at the base of a particular tree, where
I once nearly fell to my demise into the creek at the bottom of the hill. I'd
then pour a bit more water over it, just to be sure it was completely put out,
say a quick few words, and continue about things.

I believe that answers everything I've seen so far (except Cato's question about
turibula suspended from chains, about which I can only say that I simply don't
know). If I've missed something, I hope someone will let me know, and I'll do
my best to get a sufficient answer!

[Also, I suppose it bears asking for those who don't see my humour to please
excuse its dry nature. I've never been known for being funny!]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53655 From: marcushoratius Date: 2007-12-15
Subject: a. d. XVII Kalendas Ianuarias
M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus Quiritibus et omnibus salutem
plurimam dicit: Io Saturnalia! Io Triumphe!

Hodie est ante diem XVII Kalendas Ianuarias; haec dies comitialis
est:


FELICITAS HIC HABITAT : NIHIL INTRET MALI

"Happiness dwells in here, may no evil enter."

Today is Beethoven's birthday, with images of Lucy van Pelt leaning
on Schroeder's piano as he plays a sonata. It is the eve of
Saturnalia. Io Triumphe! Io Saturnalia! Today we would bake up
little treats, cookies and candy. We'd tell our sons to place their
shoes outside the front door, for this night, after midnight the
first night of Saturnalia, is when Saturnus would stop at our door to
fill their shoes with candy. Although it was terribly cold outside
at this time of year, and they would have to go to school the next
day in cold shoes, gladly they would set them out in hope of
receiving some candy. And of course they always did. When they got
a little older, too, they had learned to set out their summer shoes,
rather than their winter-wear, and thus spare their feet. Throughout
the week they would find little toys and candies, fruit, and cookies
stuffed in their clothes, in their book-bags. Who had brought it?
Why, they need only go outside and see the footprints of fauni in the
snow.

Such are my best memories of Saturnalia, enjoying the holidays in the
laughter of my wife and sons.


C. Plinius Secundus Maior on Togae

"Varro informs us, he himself having been an eye-witness, that in the
temple of Sancus, the wool was still preserved on the distaff and
spindle of Tanaquil, who was also called Caia Cæcilia; and he says
that the royal waved toga, formerly worn by Servius Tullius, and now
in the temple of Fortune, was made by her. Hence was derived the
custom, on the marriage of a young woman, of carrying in the
procession a dressed distaff and a spindle, with the thread arranged
upon it. Tanaquil was the first who wove the straight Tunica Recta,
such as our young people wear with the white Toga Pura; newly-married
women also. Waved garments were at first the most esteemed of all:
after which came into vogue those composed of various colours, the
Tunica Sororiculata. Fenestella informs us, that togae with a smooth
surface, as well as the Phryxian togae, began to be used in the
latter part of the reign of Augustus. Thick stuffs, in the
preparation of which the poppy was used, are of more ancient date,
being mentioned by the poet Lucilius, in his lines on Torquatus. The
Toga Prætexta had its origin among the Etrurians. I find that the
kings first wore the trabea of purple stripes; embroidered garments
are mentioned by Homer, and in this class originated the triumphal
robes." ~ Historia Naturalis 8.74


Our thought for today is taken from Seneca, To Nero on Clemency, 1.1

"Today, if the immortal Gods should require a reckoning from me, I am
ready to report the human race in tact."

Hodie Dis immortals, si a me rationem repentant, adnumerare geunus
humanum paratus sum.

Hours of the Day and Night

The twelve hours of each day and the twelve hours of the night were,
in later times, assigned to the deities of the seven planets. The
sequence found at Potentia (CIL 9, 5808) is given as Sol, Venus,
Mercurius, Luna, Saturnus, Jupiter, and Mars. Each hour was
designated as being good (bona), harmful (noxia), or or general
(communis). The cycle of this series was such that it repeated every
seventh day, thus becoming the origin of our week. What may seem a
little odd to those who have seen a similar corresponance for hours
in Hermetic sources is that the Romans named the days of the week
after the deity whose hour was found at noon, or sixth hour, rather
than the first hour at dawn, and thus, too, who began the first hour
of the night. Thus for today,

The Hours of the Day and Night, Sunday 16 Dec. 2007

Solis dies

I Mercuri communis
II Lunae communis
III Saturni noxia
IV Iovis bona
V Martis noxia
VI Solis communis
VII Veneris bona
VIII Mercuri communis
IX Lunae communis
X Saturni noxia
XI Iovis bona
XII Martis noxia

Solis noctu

I Solis communis
II Veneris bona
III Mercuri communis
IV Lunae communis
V Saturni noxia
VI Iovis bona
VII Martis noxia
VIII Solis communis
IX Veneris bona
X Mercuri communis
XI Lunae communis
XII Saturni noxia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53656 From: Lucius Iulius Regulus Date: 2007-12-16
Subject: Re: Fine
Salve,

What Christians are being taught is not the whole truth, therefor Christians do not know what their religion truly is, where it came from. Its roots are not only within the man, Jesus Christ. It stems from other places as well.

Lucius Iulius Regulus


----- Original Message ----
From: Gaius Equitius Cato <mlcinnyc@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 4:56:24 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Fine

Cato L. Iulio Regulo sal.

Salve Iulius Regulus.

The very heart of the matter is here:

"If the story of Easter is told, Christmas, or any other Christian
holiday that has its roots deep within the origins of other
religions, then that side should be expressed so as to encourage a
greater knowledge in ones religion. Then we wouldnt have people half
informed roaming the Earth of what their religion truly is. Why is it
wrong to expand the intelligence of a growing mind?? Why is it wrong
to ask for better religious education, no matter what religion??"

Regulus: your leap from what a Roman Catholic parochial school teaches
to the assumption that it is wrong and that it should be teaching
other religious traditions is a fallacious argument: "This apple tree
is not being fair because oranges are better than apples - why can't
it grow apples *and* oranges and make everyone happy and let them
enjoy a variety of delicious healthy fruits? Doesn't this apple tree
want everyone to be happy and healthy?"

Christianity teaches what it does specifically because it believes
that what it offers is the single most perfect possible culmination of
every human need as they have been expressed in various ways -
religion, philosophy - over the millenia of our existence. The hopes
and expectations of thousands of years grew within the hearts and
minds of mankind, searching, waiting, expressing itself in flashes of
the truth and glimmers of light, finally bursting into glorious,
brilliant reality when the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. It
has its "roots" in the Person of Jesus Christ. Nothing else is needed.

You want Christians to know what "their religion truly is"? We do
know, and we rejoice.

Vale,

Cato





____________________________________________________________________________________
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know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53657 From: Maior Date: 2007-12-16
Subject: Re: Fine
Maior Aquilae Catoni Reguloque spd:
many thanks Aquila! I am so glad you think so .
Right now I am reading an excellent book on Venus. There is no one
single Venus; rather the Venus of the Sicilians ,Venus Eryx, who is
Astarte, Venus Libitina who has a chthonic aspect. Venus Genetrix
the mother of Aeneas and the mother of all Romans... Yet they all
are Venus. So many aspects.
Today you can recognize the symbols of Venus everywhere:
the crescent and star on the flags of Muslim countries!
bene valete in pacem Veneri
Maior
>
> I fully support the statement of Senatrix Maior !
>
>
> I was enjoying the broad discussion about philosophy, history and
> many religions not the truth/falsity of someone named Jesus.It's
> your cultus go and enjoy it!
>
>
> Valete optime
> Titus Flavius Aquila
> Tribunus Plebis
> Scriba Censoris KFBM
>
>
> ----- Ursprüngliche Mail ----
> Von: Maior <rory12001@...>
> An: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Gesendet: Samstag, den 15. Dezember 2007, 03:21:12 Uhr
> Betreff: [Nova-Roma] Re: Fine
>
> Maior Caton Regulo sal;
> here's what the actual text of Lucian says:
> 11. "It was then that he learned the wondrous lore of the
> Christians, by associating with their priests and scribes in
> Palestine. Andâ€"how else could it be?â€"in a trice he made them
all
> look like children, for he was prophet, cult-leader, head of the
> synagogue, and everything, all by himself. He inter preted and
> explained some of their books and even composed many, and they
> revered him as a god, made use of him as a lawgiver, and set him
> down as a protector, next after that other, to be sure, whom11
they
> still worship, the man who was crucified in Palestine because he
> introduced this new cult into the world.
> http://www.tertulli an.org/rpearse/ lucian/peregrinu s.htm
>
> He's reporting what others believe, it doesn't mean it is true or
> not true. The only witness to Moses, David, all the Hebrew
Prophets
> are the Hebrew Scriptures written by pious Jews, it's not
> independent evidence; they are biased. And there is none, until an
> independent inscription or piece of evidence is found, which is
fine.
>
> Actually Lucian is an Epicurean and wrote a very funny book on Dea
> Syria and the Syrian beliefs..'Dea Dea Syria';
>
> "A man goes up one of these pillars twice a year and stays at the
> top of the pillar for the period of seven days. And they say the
> cause of his going up is this. Common folk believe that he speaks
> with the gods on high and asks boons for all Syria, and the gods
> hear his prayers from so near."
>
> When Nabarz came, Cato you didn't ask him any questions about
> Mithras, his Virgin Mother Anahita, Judgement or Ressurection. Why
> not? The rational man or woman, the thoughtful man or woman has no
> problem with these questions or a diversity of answers.
>
> I was enjoying the broad discussion about philosophy, history and
> many religions not the truth/falsity of someone named Jesus.It's
> your cultus go and enjoy it!
> bene vale
> Maior
>
> > "...not only does Lucian know the practices of Christianity
> (brotherly
> > love, belief in immortality, contempt of death, worship of
Christ)
> but
> > assumes his audience is familiar with 'their first lawgiver...the
> > crucified sophist' (op. cit. 13) - and note also that he refers
to
> > Christ as a singular individual with a singular and particular
> > geographical history...here is one Classical author who writes
> about a
> > particular individual Who taught specific things in a specific
> place
> > and suffered a particular kind of death; his detestation of
> > Christianity could have easily found an outlet in simply saying
> that
> > the Christians were fools above all else because they based their
> > faith in Someone Who never existed."
> >
> > Much, much more. He is predicating his entire argument against
> > Christianity on the assumption that his audience knows about the
> > cult's founder's place in real history. No miracles, no drama,
> > nothing except - basically - "remember that this guy taught a
> bunch of
> > stuff, riled up the neighbors, and got crucified in Palestine
for
> it."
> >
> > I notice that you don't mention the Gospels either. Before you
> dash
> > off something in response, re-read what I have written, and
> consider -
> > very carefully - the overwhelming majority opinion of actual
> literary
> > and historical textual criticism, done by actual historians and
> > literary critics.
> >
> >
> > Iulius Regulus, if you went to a Roman Catholic school you
should
> act
> > somewhat less than surprised that you were taught Roman Catholic
> > doctrine - which, unless I've really missed the boat somewhere,
> > accepts not only the existence of, but also declares the
divinity
> of,
> > Jesus. And remember the bit about "extra ecclesiam nulla salus
> est."
> > If you had gone to a Yeshiva, my guess is that you *probably*
> would
> > have come out knowing Hebrew. You say you have no axe to grind
> then
> > proceed to grind it quite nicely for the next paragraph.
> >
> > And you missed - entirely and magnificently - my point about the
> > article in the newspapers. Fabius Modianus hit the nail square
on
> the
> > head.
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > Cato
> >
> > P.S. - Iulius Regulus, you even missed the point of my reference
to
> > Michael Corleone; perhaps the single most famous quote from "The
> > Godfather III". That makes me sad. GEC
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> Jetzt Mails schnell in einem Vorschaufenster überfliegen.
Dies und viel mehr bietet das neue Yahoo! Mail - www.yahoo.de/mail
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53658 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2007-12-16
Subject: Re: YES on Lex Galeria de Cursu Honorum
> A. Tullia Scholastica T. Artoriae Marcellae quiritibus bonae voluntatis
> S.P.D.
>
>
>
> Salve et salvete omnes,
>
> Ti. Galerius Paulinus scripsit:
>
>> >Please review my post on how many citizens we already have who
>> >served in different magistracy. These citizens are available to run for
>> >these
>> >offices. Saying we will not have enough people is not accurate.
>
> I would argue that being eligible (which those cives are) is not the same as
> being available.
>
> ATS: I agree.
>
>
> What if ten cives are eligible for two open positions and none of the ten are
> able (unavailable) or willing to stand for office? For the last two years we
> have had to hold a second election to try and fill the vacant positions. That
> was "with" departures from the cursus honorum.
>
>
> ATS: And for a while last year it was like pulling teeth to get
> candidates for, of all things, the consulatus.
>
>
> In addition, Section VIII "fines" magistrates who resign during the last three
> months of their office, and you've citing an election official's resignation
> as an example of why this lex is needed. But what if the election official in
> question had resigned because they could not perform their duties due to an
> unforeseen crisis?
>
> I've a friend whose mother was diagnosed with late stage bone cancer and had
> to take a four-month leave of absence to help move her mother in with her,
> sell her mother's house, and a few other arrangements that took up her time.
> If she were a Nova Roman, and a magistrate, and resigned the day before her
> term expired, would she have been punished for going to care for her dying
> mother? Under the proposed lex, yes. Not everyone resigns for trivial
> reasons. This lex does not make a distiction.
>
> ATS: Indeed it does not, but this could be fixed by a very simple
> addition. Adding a clause allowing such exemptions should do the trick.
> There are legitimate, unpredictable, and unavoidable reasons for such
> resignations. We should not, however, run away from an office without a very
> good reason (death will suffice...). Probably you remember some of the
> stellar disappearances and resignations of a few years ago...
>
> The lex is inflexible in areas that require flexibility, and for that reason I
> cannot support it. I urge my fellow quirites to vote antiquo.
>
> ATS: I am concerned that no one is required to be an apparitor
> (particularly a central government apparitor) before seeking a magistracy,
> whereas this, not the quaestura, or even some of the vigintisexviratus
> positions [as properly constituted, the rogatura requires experience as a
> censorial scriba], should be step one. There is also excessive inflexibility
> in several of the steps, and skews some of them toward plebeians, for (if
> memory serves) the praetura can be entered by two plebeian offices, but only
> one which is open to patricians; moreover, it is my understanding that two of
> the three qualifying offices were not required in antiquity. Some of these
> provisions, at least, seem to have been added late in the process, and have
> not improved this law. I support some of the provisions, and more of the
> ideas behind them, but the whole leaves something to be desired.
>
> T. Artoria Marcella
>
> Vale, et valete.
>
>
> Messages in this topic
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/30751;



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53659 From: L. Vitellius Triarius Date: 2007-12-16
Subject: Re: a.s. II diem Natalem Christi/Jesus never Existed/An Unbelieveabl
Bad Cato!...Down, boy!...down...LOL!


;) Triarius


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Equitius Cato"
<mlcinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> Cato L. Fidelio Lusitano sal.
>
> Salve Fidelius Lusitanus.
>
> You wrote:
>
> "How Could Jesus have been sailed for Far East and Japan..."
>
> Maybe He walked there?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Get it? Walking on water....
>
> Thank you, thank you. I'm here all week. Try the veal, and don't
> forget to tip the waitstaff.
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53660 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2007-12-16
Subject: Re: Daily rituals in latin
>>
>> A. Tullia Scholastica T. Iulio Neroni C. Mario Lupo quiritibus bonae
>> voluntatis S.P.D.
>>
>>
>> Salve Mari Lupe,
>>
>> The daily rituals are not available in Latin at this time. As the
>> author of them, I'm afraid to say that I am not well versed in
>> Latin, but if anyone would kindly take up the task of making a
>> translation into Latin, myself among other Cultores I'm sure would
>> be quite thankful.
>>
>> ATS: As I noted in another message, we have several competent Latinists
>> on the Sodalitas list. Perhaps I could do it in my spare time (ha!) if it
>> isn¹t terribly long. Could you perhaps send me the text? I don¹t live on
>> the wikipedia, and rarely have time to track down information there.
>>
>> Once a translation is made, I will see to it that the Latin version
>> is made available on the NR Wiki site. :-)
>>
>> Vale optime,
>> Titus Iulius Nero
>>
>> Vale, et valete.
>>
>> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com> ,
>> "marius.lupus" <mariobasile@...>
>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > C.Marius Lupus omnes salutat.
>>> >
>>> > Dear all,
>>> > I have looked for the daily rituals in the web page
>>> > http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Daily_Rituals_%28Nova_Roma%29
>>> >
>>> > The ritual is in English, but the primary source is reported:
>>> > is there available a latin version of the daily ritual?
>>> >
>>> > Valete omnes
>>> >
>>> > C.Marius Lupus
>>> >
>>
>>
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53661 From: L. Vitellius Triarius Date: 2007-12-16
Subject: Re: YES on Lex Galeria de Cursu Honorum
Salvete,

> > I am concerned that no one is required to be an apparitor
> > (particularly a central government apparitor) before seeking a
magistracy,
> > whereas this, not the quaestura, or even some of the
vigintisexviratus
> > positions [as properly constituted, the rogatura requires
experience as a
> > censorial scriba], should be step one.

LVT: In most governmental elected positions, one is not required
to "progress through the ranks." This progression is primarily for
those seeking a career as an appointed magistrate, like say, the
USA's Civil Service Programs. If required progression through the
ranks would benefit us more than the current system, then the Cursus
should be something like this to allow each elected magistrate to be
properly trained and versed in the job:

Step 6: Scriba > Diribitor > Custos > Rogator > Quaestor > Censor
Step 5: Scriba > Accensus > Consul
Step 4: Scriba > Praetor > Propraetor
Step 2A: Scriba > Quaestor > Curule Aedile
Step 2B: Scriba > Tribune > Scriba > Quaestor > Plebeian Aedile
Step 1: Provincial Scriba > Praefectus > Procurator

This would take 18 years to properly complete as a Patrician and 20
years if Plebeian.

Good luck filling offices.

If changes need to be codified, then do it along the lines of the
ancients:

1. Plebeian Aediles were instituted to assist the Tribuns Plebii,
not vice versa. Tribunii should be well versed in the law, probably
taking a short Nova Roman Law for New Tribunes self-paced
correspondence-type course at Academie Thules. Cordus and others
could write it, or it could be an online Tribune Handbook, if one
does not already exist. Course would be better, utilizing the
handbook.

2. Quaestorship meant a Senatorial appointment (if only to view and
learn, but not vote, as to learn the workings of the Senate - Senate
list settings could be changed to moderators post only w/ Senators
being tagged as moderators)...OR...Quaestors could be provincially
elected by cives or appointed to the provinciae by Propraetors or
Consuls and the Senate could, to distinguish them apart, appoint two
Proquaestors to handle the financial affairs of the Res Publica
(they being Certified Public Accountants or at least have some
financial background in the macroworld.) This would allow new
magistrates to have a macroworld working relationship with the
Propraetor with actual experience handling and managing the
financial funds of the provincia, establishing a working
relationship with the proper higher magistrates, and provide
experience for the position of Proquaestor in the future.

3. Consul was the highest ruling magistrate. Censor was a side step,
not upward progression for the Consul on the Cursus Honorum. It was
a position more like the Princeps Senatus in its importance. I guess
you would say a distinguished or honored position, but in some cases
not even that, just an appointment to office by the Senate as a
Chief Administrative Officer.



> There is also excessive inflexibility
> > in several of the steps, and skews some of them toward
plebeians, for (if
> > memory serves) the praetura can be entered by two plebeian
offices, but only
> > one which is open to patricians; moreover, it is my
understanding that two of
> > the three qualifying offices were not required in antiquity.

LVT: Aediles of both kinds, nor the Tribunii, were required in the
Cursus Honorum from what I have learned.



> Some of these
> > provisions, at least, seem to have been added late in the
process, and have
> > not improved this law. I support some of the provisions, and
more of the
> > ideas behind them, but the whole leaves something to be desired.

LVT: The fact is that in ancient Rome, there were depending on the
period several tens to hundreds of thousand citizens to choose from,
and finding even the large number of Quaestors appointed by Iulius
Caesar to better his own position in the Senate were not hard to
find. At this point, we do not have the luxury of those statistics,
no matter who we have that has held whatever elected office in the
past.

I personally feel we should revisit the modification of the current
laws in...oh, say...twenty years.

Rather than trying to further narrow our system down with over
regulation, until citizenship numbers start going UP, instead of
DOWN, we should be concentrating on:

1. Building Egressus Clubs at colleges and universities to recruit
new members,

2. Conducting more macroworld events to recruit new members,

3. Developing and cultivating working relationships with other Roman
interest groups to recruit new members,

4. Contacting nearby reenacting units to trying to convert their
civilian vicus units to NR oppida to recruit new members, etc.

The question I have to everyone about the last paragraph is: in
reading it, did you see that we needed to concentrate on four
different things or just one?

Of course, these are just my personal thoughts on the matter.

Vale optime,
Triarius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53662 From: L. Vitellius Triarius Date: 2007-12-16
Subject: Re: Daily rituals in latin
Salve Mari Lupe,

You can view the "short version" for daily ritual at my online
lararium. It is not in detail as the Morning and Evening rituals, but
I personally do not have the time to schedule such proper complex
rituals on a daily basis consistently.

You can view the lararium at:

http://www.plutusonline.com/nr/villa/lararivm.html

I hope this helps.

Vale optime,
Triarius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53663 From: Quintus Fabius Sanga Date: 2007-12-16
Subject: Re: Fine
Salve

Do yoy actually know any religion that teaches the whole truth to their followers?

Vale

Q. Fabius Sanga

----- Original Message ----
From: Lucius Iulius Regulus <luciusjul25@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 8:08:20 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Fine

Salve,

What Christians are being taught is not the whole truth, therefor Christians do not know what their religion truly is, where it came from. Its roots are not only within the man, Jesus Christ. It stems from other places as well.

Lucius Iulius Regulus

----- Original Message ----
From: Gaius Equitius Cato <mlcinnyc@gmail. com>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 4:56:24 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Fine

Cato L. Iulio Regulo sal.

Salve Iulius Regulus.

The very heart of the matter is here:

"If the story of Easter is told, Christmas, or any other Christian
holiday that has its roots deep within the origins of other
religions, then that side should be expressed so as to encourage a
greater knowledge in ones religion. Then we wouldnt have people half
informed roaming the Earth of what their religion truly is. Why is it
wrong to expand the intelligence of a growing mind?? Why is it wrong
to ask for better religious education, no matter what religion??"

Regulus: your leap from what a Roman Catholic parochial school teaches
to the assumption that it is wrong and that it should be teaching
other religious traditions is a fallacious argument: "This apple tree
is not being fair because oranges are better than apples - why can't
it grow apples *and* oranges and make everyone happy and let them
enjoy a variety of delicious healthy fruits? Doesn't this apple tree
want everyone to be happy and healthy?"

Christianity teaches what it does specifically because it believes
that what it offers is the single most perfect possible culmination of
every human need as they have been expressed in various ways -
religion, philosophy - over the millenia of our existence. The hopes
and expectations of thousands of years grew within the hearts and
minds of mankind, searching, waiting, expressing itself in flashes of
the truth and glimmers of light, finally bursting into glorious,
brilliant reality when the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. It
has its "roots" in the Person of Jesus Christ. Nothing else is needed.

You want Christians to know what "their religion truly is"? We do
know, and we rejoice.

Vale,

Cato

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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53664 From: Lucius Iulius Regulus Date: 2007-12-16
Subject: Re: Fine
Salve Maior,

I would like to know the name of that book. Venus is the Goddess of my family and would love to read more books concerning her alone. For a while I have been looking for a book on Venus but can not seem to find one that I like. If you or anyone has any great book concerning Apollo I would like to know of it as well. Thank you in advance.

Lucius Iulius Regulus


----- Original Message ----
From: Maior <rory12001@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 1:54:53 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Fine

Maior Aquilae Catoni Reguloque spd:
many thanks Aquila! I am so glad you think so .
Right now I am reading an excellent book on Venus. There is no one
single Venus; rather the Venus of the Sicilians ,Venus Eryx, who is
Astarte, Venus Libitina who has a chthonic aspect. Venus Genetrix
the mother of Aeneas and the mother of all Romans... Yet they all
are Venus. So many aspects.
Today you can recognize the symbols of Venus everywhere:
the crescent and star on the flags of Muslim countries!
bene valete in pacem Veneri
Maior
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53665 From: Lucius Iulius Regulus Date: 2007-12-16
Subject: Cults of the Roman Empire
Salve,

If anyone as information on the book, "Cults of the Roman Empire," by Robert Turcan, please let me know if the book is worth the buy. I have been tempted to buy it but am waiting to hear good feedback. Thank you in advance.

Lucius Iulius Regulus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53666 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2007-12-16
Subject: Please trim your posts
A. Tullia Scholastica praetrix quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque bonae
voluntatis S.P.D.

Several recent messages to the ML have been marked as spam, perhaps
because they seem to list every message on a given topic. Please trim your
posts; it is not necessary to copy several messages merely because they are
on the same topic. This practice rapidly fills some members¹ mailboxes,
some of whom also pay by the minute for their net connection and is
therefore discourteous to them. In addition, as consularis Marinus pointed
out a while ago, the more we stuff Yahoo, the more messages from early on
get deleted as the space is limited. Normally this courtesy is mentioned in
the moderation edictum, but that unfortunately did not happen this year.

Secondly, the failures of catechism class to produce knowledgeable ten
year old theologians have moreover been duly noted. Ridiculing the faiths
of others, and the historical basis for those faiths, is another subject not
considered appropriate here in the past, but some just seem to think that
major holidays of another faith are a fine time to insult such faiths. Miss
Manners might disagree. Enough is enough. I thought someone might question
the existence of Mohammed next, and then we would be in trouble. I am not
religious, but those who are may well find at least some elements of the
recent discussions offensive. It is time to stop. Some fine discussion has
resulted from some of this, such as that on the sacra privata, but
shockingly, it is quite possible to hold a learned discussion on that or
almost any topic without resorting to insulting others and their beliefs.

Valete.



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53667 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2007-12-16
Subject: a.s. I diem Natalem Christi
Cato omnes SPD

Salvete omnes.

Hodiernus dies est ante septimanem I diem natalem Christi.

O Oriens, splendor lucis aeternae et sol iustitiae: veni, et illumina
sedentes in tenebris et umbra mortis. (O Radiant Dawn, splendor of
eternal light, sun of justice: come, shine on those who dwell in
darkness and the shadow of death)

"But for you who revere my name the sun of righteousness shall rise,
with healing in its wings. You shall go out leaping like calves from
the stall." - Malachi 4:2


O Rex gentium et desideratus earum, lapisque angularis, qui facis
utraque unum,: veni et salva hominem, quem de limo formasti. (O King
of all the nations, the only joy of every human heart; O Keystone of
the mighty arch of man, come and save the creature you fashioned from
the dust)

"Therefore thus says the LORD, See, I am laying in Zion a foundation
stone, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation: 'One
who trusts will not panic'." - Isaiah 28:16


O Emmanuel, rex et legisfer noster, espectatio gentium et salvator
earum: veni ad salvandum nos, Domine Deus noster. (O Emmanuel, king
and lawgiver, desire of the nations, Savior of all people, come and
set us free, Lord our God)

"Therefore the LORD Himself will give you a sign. Look, the young
woman is with child and shall bear a son, and shall name Him
Emmanuel." - Isaiah 7:14


Christi autem generatio sic erat cum esset desponsata mater eius Maria
Ioseph antequam convenirent inventa est in utero habens de Spiritu
Sancto. Ioseph autem vir eius cum esset iustus et nollet eam
traducere voluit occulte dimittere eam. Haec autem eo cogitante ecce
angelus Domini in somnis apparuit ei dicens Ioseph fili David noli
timere accipere Mariam coniugem tuam quod enim in ea natum est de
Spiritu Sancto est. Pariet autem filium et vocabis nomen eius Iesum
ipse enim salvum faciet populum suum a peccatis eorum.

Valete bene!

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53668 From: L. Vitellius Triarius Date: 2007-12-16
Subject: Re: Please trim your posts
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 53669 From: liviacases Date: 2007-12-16
Subject: Re: How to Handle the Lararium
L. Livia plauta omnibus SPD.

Reading these discussions about the lararium I started to wonder how
this was handled in roman insulae, where apartments didn't have a
fireplace.
Does anyone know if lararia were found in insulae and what they
looked like?
This could be relevant for all of us living in apartments (like me).
My entrance door faces east and so does my kitchen, but unfortunately
the kitchen is so small that there's no place for a lararium, so I
set mine up in the living room.
However, I think the situation of those of us who don't have a
fireplace, but only a cooker is more similar to that of Romans who
lived in insulae without any cooking facility at all than to that of
Romans living in domus with hearths.

Optime valete.