Salve,

I must disagree with you. Though I agree the terminology 'false
religion' is offensive and not the appropriate term, the very nature
of Christianity makes all other religions not the 'true' religion and
so from Mr Fraser's perspective a justified (albeit unnecessarily
harsh) statement. I believe were you to use the same religious
understanding for Mr Fraser that you expect from him it would be clear
what the true message is; Mr Fraser is isolated from our community by
his religious beliefs, and this alienation has every sign of growing
with the election of new magistrates, so in frustration he resigns
from NR. Is he a coward for not staying and fighting with his
detractors over his decision? I do not believe there would ever be a
consensus reached between them, nor do I believe that others have the
right to question Mr Fraser's decision to leave NR, so I support his
abrupt exit as the cleanest option.

I am the new governor of Canada Citerior, Mr Fraser's old province,
and I do not think we are better off without him. He took a position
in an ailing province when nobody else would, continued to hold it
when he was no longer interested in remaining in Nova Roma much less
his position as governor, and agreed to continue to hold it until
December 31st of this year, barring a replacement to allow him to step
down. He remained in Nova Roma until I stepped up as a replacement to
allow him to retire from Nova Roma without throwing the province into
anarchy, which I find admirable as he could have walked away at any
time at no detriment to himself.

His services to Nova Roma are exemplary, and I think his loss is a
great hurt to my already fragile province. You accuse him of being a
bigot for calling the Religio Romana a false religion, and yet you
yourself express a desire for Nova Roma to be exclusively pagan (for
Judaism, Islam, and Christianity by definition consider all other
religions 'false' and so ineligible for membership in NR).

For an organization that claims to welcome people of all creeds as
long as they respect the Religio Romana, this is less than a
respectful attitude for citizens who practice the Religio Romana to
hold towards those citizens who practice other religions and yet are
expected to respect the Religio Romana. I have always believed respect
is a two-way street and I cannot see how one misguided post to the
Main List warrants a post advocating the removal of monotheistic
citizens from Nova Roma, followed by outraged posts when monotheistic
citizens feel alienated.

I agree that his wording was inappropriate, yet I cannot help but feel
that he has pointed towards something with a degree of truth to it.
For though I do not share Mr Fraser's theological crisis, I myself am
a practicing Catholic, drawn here by a love of Roma, not necessarily
her gods. It is something I must struggle with; my love of a culture
that was polytheistic, and my own monotheism. It is a struggle that is
by no means made easier by pagan citizens calling into question my
dedication to Roma based on religious preference.

I do love Roma, and I can name you lists of her gods and their
functions, I simply do not choose to worship them. My knowledge allows
me to proceed, making informed decisions and allowing me to be
sensitive and tolerant of others beliefs, which is what is required of
me. I believe that Nova Roma could be best served in the longterm by
reviewing whether or not Nova Roma should have a state religion. While
I have absolutely no issue with Nova Roma being the temporal homeland
of the Religio Romana, I cannot see how you can have a state religion
that citizens are not required to follow, nor can I see ejecting all
monotheistic citizens based on their religion.

If we claim to be the modern Roman state, should we not appeal to the
modern Roman citizen? The ancient Romans were known as great
pragmatists and in their day, religion proved an excellent way to
unite the peoples of all Roman lands. In today's multicultural world
where the children of Romanitas have spread throughout the world and
have many beliefs, could not tolerance, acceptance, and understanding
of the differences between us be used as the glue that binds us
together as well as the love of Roma Antiqua that we all share?

Optime Vale,

Titus Annaeus Regulus
Procurator Canada Citerior

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Annia Minucia Marcella <annia@...>
wrote:

>
> Salve,
>
> I consider him a bigot. We are better without him. I hope all people

who

> think the Religio Romana to be false leave as well. Sometimes I wish
> this organization were like the other pagan organizations, for they
> don't have conflicts like this. This is the only pagan org that allows
> non-pagans to not only be members but magistrates as well. I don't mind
> christians being here but this crap is starting to get annoying. REALLY
> ANNOYING.
>
> Vale
> - Annia Minucia Marcella
> Legata Pro Praetore Nova Britannia
> http://novabritannia.org
> http://myspace.com/novabritannia
> http://ciarin.com/governor
>

Salve Gnaeus Caelius Ahenobarbus,

Regarding your answer to my earlier post. There would certainly be
problems and quarrels on these forums without the Christians. I've
served in many clubs and organizations over the years and if there is
not strife and back biting on one thing than it is another. As a
matter of fact as Tribune two years back I had to intervene with a
veto in favour of Pontifex Scaurus when the College was having their
strifes and quarrels... they fought amongst themselves quite well
with out Christians.

Valete bene,

Quintus Suetonius Paulinus










-- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Caelius Ahenobarbus
<cn.caelius@...> wrote:

>
> Cn. Caelius Ahenobarbus M. Horteniae Maiori s.p.d.
>
> Your comment was so important, I'm repeating it here:
>
> >Under current Nova Roman law, cives running for magistracies can

opt

> >out of performing auspices and rituals personally and appoint
> >someone to do it for them. This is ahistorical and utterly

unRoman,

> >and the cause of our problems. If we have one culture, act as

Romans

> >we wouldn't have these periodic problems and fissures.
>
> I believe you are correct here. A "proxy ritual" ***in this

case***, and in my opinion, is unsatisfactory.

>
> >We need to change the law so all Romans who run for office will
> >perform their duties: taking auspices, participating in rituals of
> >the religio romana were and are the duties of magistrates.
>
> I personally agree with this.
>
> >Letting magistrates avoid their responsibilites doen't help Nova
> >Roma, nor does it build Romanitas.
>
>
> I agree with you yet again.
>
> Optime vale!
>
> --
> Gnaeus Caelius Ahenobarbus
> Aedilis Oppidi, Oppidum Fluminis Gilae, America Austroccidentalis
> Accensus, cos. M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus et T. Iulius Sabinus
> http://becomingnewthroughtheold.blogspot.com
>

M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus Quiritibus et omnibus salutem
plurimam dicit: Di Deaeque vos bene ament

Hodie est Kalendae Novembriae; haec dies fastus est: Isia inventio
Osiris

If the vetch and common kidney bean you would sow, nor scorn to make
your care Pelusiac lentils, no uncertain sign Bootes fall will send
you. ~ P. Vergilius Maro, Georgicon 1.227-230

Vetches, kidney beans and arugula should be sown after the setting of
Lyre. It is generally recommended that this should be done under a
New Moon. ~ C. Plinius Secundus, Historia Naturalis 18.74

During the Early Republic the Kalends of each month arrived on the
day of the New Moon. This year our Kalends, using the Gregorian for
our civil calendar, will see the fourth day of the New Moon.
Arcturus (Alpha Bootes) would be seen setting near sunset, and as a
northern constellation it rises again around dawn (I think). At any
rate, it culminates around 11:16 AM ( Boston), meaning that it
reaches its highest point, crossing the meridian, due south of your
location, shortly after Natural Noon. (We change clocks forward this
weekend in the US to return to natural time.) Between calculating
the differences between the Gregorian and Julian, the progression of
the stars over the last two-thousand years, the differences between
standard time and natural time, and your exact location relative to
the stars, we have simply complicated things. The ancient farmer
would simply observe the stars to see where in the farmng cycle he
ought to be and what weather patterns he might expect. Planting by
observation of the moon and stars is still a valid method of
gardening. And if you remember that our religious rituals were once
based on the same observations, it is still a good way to regulate
your religious life, living in harmony with nature by observing the
cycles of Nature.


Vetches

"The vetch (vicia sativa), too, enriches the soil, and its
cultivation entails no labor on the agriculturist. It is sown after
the ground has been but once turned up, and requires neither hoeing
nor manuring; nothing at all, indeed, except harrowing. There are
three periods for sowing it; the first is about the setting of
Arcturus, when it is intended for feeding cattle in the month of
December, while in the blade; this crop, too, is the best of all for
seed, for, although grazed upon, it will bear just as well. The
second crop is sown in the month of January, and the last in March;
this last being the best crop for fodder. Of all the seeds this is
the one that thrives best in a dry soil; still, however, it manifests
no repugnance to a shaded locality. This grain, if gathered when
quite ripe, produces a chaff superior to that of any other. If sown
near vines supported by trees, the vetch will draw away the juices
from the vines, and make them languid."

"In the case of the kidney-bean (phaseolus vulgaris) it is usual to
eat the pod together with the seed. This last may be sown in all
kinds of soils indifferently, between the Ides of October and the
Kalends of November." ~ C. Plinius Secundus, Historia Naturalis
18.35; 18.33


Die te quinti kalo, Iuno Covella

Today is the Kalends of November. The month is sacred to Diana. The
Kalends of each month is dedicated to Juno, and to Janus as well. The
Domina, or Lady of the House, leads the household rites. Each day the
hearth and family lararium was swept. On the Kalends, Nonae, and Ides
of each month, or about once a week, the entire house received a
special sweeping to purify it. We know how a house was swept after
someone died in it, and it was common for Romans to die in their
homes. The lictores were given a special mola salsa in February for
this purpose, which they scattered about the house before it was
swept up. It is likely that a similar practice was made each Kalends.
The reason is easily understood. At mealtime, whatever falls to the
floor belongs to the Manes. Sweeping up the floor, one thus offered
the mola salsa for what was to be removed. When performing such a
ritual sweeping of the house, the dust is not to be swept out a door,
but rather picked up and carried outside, where it would have been
buried in a suitable place for the Manes. A wreath was hung over the
hearth each Kalends, and later the same
would have been done at the lararium. In early Rome the hearth served
as the family lararium. The family Lar was offered the first fruits
of the month, whatever the season might be, and an image of the Lar
might be crowned with a wreath.

A wreath was also hung outside over the front door on the Kalends of
February, and most likely the front door was decorated anew every
Kalends. An offering was made to Juno as the Goddess who watched over
family relations. She was offered meal, oil, milk, and flowers on the
threshold or at a table outside the front door. That is, She was
being invited as a guest to visit the household. Originally this rite
may have been a monthly meal set out for the juno of the minor
goddess of the front door, such as Cardea, who was associated with
the minor god Janus of the front door. He should be thought of as
originally distinct from the celestial Janus, the God of good
beginnings who was celebrated on the Kalends of January with
offerings of ianuae cakes. However, over time little distinction was
made, and the shrine of Janus at the front of the house, near the
front door, probably received offerings for celestial Janus each
month in order that He might bring good beginnings for the days to
follow. He received offerings of incense, generally of bay leaves,
wine, and strue cakes. We do not have a recipe for strue cakes, as we
do of libum, but these were probably a simple unleavened bread made
with spelt flour, a pinch of salt, and water after the manner that
Cicero gives.

In the state religion, the pontifices were to gather each kalends in
the curia Calabria on the Capitoline Hill. They announced when the
Nonae would fall for that month, either on the fifth or the seventh,
by invoking Juno in this fashion, "Die te quinti kalo, Iuno Covella,"
or else as "Septimi die te kalo, Iuno Covella." (Varro L. L. 6.27).
In the month of November the Nonae arrive on the fifth.

On the Nonae themselves sacrifices were offered to Juno Covella and
to Janus by the Rex and Regina Sacrorum. Sacrifices would also have
been offered to Them on the Kalends, as They were invoked, and
although not mentioned for this occasion AFAIK, the Rex and Regina
Sacrorum probably performed the sacrifices on the Kalends as well.

November is unusual from other months in the Roman calendar in that
it has no major festivals. Instead it is the month of plowing and
sowing, Sementes triticariae et hordiariae (Varro Rerum Rustica
1.34). The one festival that does occur in November is the ludi
Plebii in honor of Jupiter. When a month is said to be sacred to one
deity or another generally there is a festival held for that deity on
the Ides of the month. In November a festival is held for Feronia on
the Ides, rather than for Diana. The connection will be explained
later in the month. In the first century of the common era the first
part of November saw the main festival of Isis at Rome come to its
conclusion with the Hilaria on the third, a day before what was by
then the beginning of the ludi Plebii. Otherwise in the calendar of
the Libera Res Publica no festivals were not held between the Kalends
and Nonae of any month.


AUC 1095 / 342

The Emperors Constantius [II] and Constans, Augusti, to Catullinus,
Praefectus of the City: Although every superstition is to be rooted
out completely, nevertheless it is our wish that the temple buildings
located outside the city walls should remain untouched and undamaged.
For since certain plays, circus spectacules, and competitions have
their origin from some of these temples, it is not appropriate to
pull them down when they provide the Roman people with performances
of traditional entertainments. Issued on the Kalends of November in
the third consulate of Constantius Augustus and the second of
Constans Augustus. ~ Theodisian Codex 16.10.3

Thought of the day from Epictetus, Enchiridion 16

"When you see any one weeping for grief, either that his son has gone
abroad, or that he has suffered in his affairs, take care not to be
overcome by the apparent evil; but discriminate, and be ready to
say, 'What hurts this man is not this occurrence itself, – for
another man might not be hurt by it, – but the view he chooses to
take of it.' As far as conversation goes, however, do not disdain to
accommodate yourself to him, and if need be, to groan with him. Take
heed, however, not to groan inwardly too."

Salvete Quirites Novae Romae et omnes

When I walk into a forest I delight in the multiplicity and diversity
of Nature. There are the many trees, plants, animals, stones in
repetition, and yet each leaf on every tree is unique, each chipmunk
cavorting beneath the fallen leaves is unique, each acorn they gather
is unique. And at night I am greeted by the multiplicity, diversity,
and uniqueness of every star, galaxy, planet, meteor, comet, asteroid
and planetoid. In the undulating seas, teaming with life, I ponder
on the uniqueness of each arriving wave.

I think in the same way towards our community, noster Civitas, with
all of its diversity, multiplicity, and the uniqueness of every
individual who composes our Res Publica. Thus it is disturbing to
see not only the resignation of Aurelius Severus but also the one
tendered by Claudius Varro days before.

When each day I post on the fasti and I call upon the Gods to keep
you all safe and healthy, I do not exclude from my thoughts any of
the deities who might watch over us. I celebrate instead the
diversity and multiplicity of the religious life of our community.
Yes, I write primarily to cultores Deorum Romani. But then what does
that mean? Were there not Jews in the Roman Empire? And an
assortment of Christians? Muslims, Hindus, and at least one
delegation of Buddhists. Then there were Hellenes, Isiacists,
Mithraists and an assortment of others. Each sect offered to the
richness of diversity in the Roman Empire.

Therefore I cannot agree with expressions of exclusiveness that would
seek to expel those who follow another faith, or those who advocate
leaving Nova Roma because it includes people of diverse faiths. It
is disconcerting to me when someone does leave, whether Christian or
cultor Deorum, over his displeasure with the richness of our diverse
religious life in Nova Roma.

Like those words expressed by Symmachus, once Praefectus of Rome
under Christian emperors, my personal experience has been that people
of faith have an ability of transcending their own religious
traditions to arrive in the same spiritual understanding. There
are "many paths (that) lead to the sublime." We learn by interacting
with one another, and thus we can only stunt our own spiritual
development when we exclude ourselves from those of other faiths. And
the religious life of our community, too, would become stunted if
ever we should turn our back towards cultivating its rich diversity.


Di Deaeque vos bene ament

Marcus Moravius Piscinus Horatianus

Consul Senatus Populique Nova Romae
Pontifex Maximus, Augur, et Flamen Carmentalis

A. Tullia Scholastica M. Hortensiae quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
 

M. Hortensia Cn. Caelio Cn. Cornelio spd;
 I am totally fine with inclusivists. But last year my Saturnalia
and New Year's was ruined by having to fight a lawsuit, claiming I
incited hatred to Christianity brought by and then almost adjudjed by
two non-inclusivist praetors: Cato and Scholastica. And Marinus who
brought the suit.

    ATS: If your Saturnalia and New Year’s were ruined, you have only your sharp tongue, pen, and keyboard to blame.  Your post was beyond outrageous, a triumph of your inimitable style which those of us who have been here long enough have come to know all too well.  Apparently your multifarious researches had not led you to our Constitution, or anything else which might have led to tolerance for all faiths in the citizenry and in the magistrates.  Kindly note, too, that neither Cato’s nor my religious views (such as they are in my case:  minimal) had anything to do with our acceptance of the petitio actionis, or of any subsequent legal procedure.  Normal people do not live in the land of emotions; they live in the land of reason, and make decisions based thereon.  It is essential that the praetores in particular do so, and that is what we did.  It may not be the case with others in that post, but the two of us followed the law, like it or not.  

    Secondly, it seems very difficult to get certain things through certain skulls.  No matter how many times I say this, you and some others still seem to think that I am a graduate of a convent and piously practice the faith in which I was raised.  I do not.  Moreover, I do not limit my friendships to those who practice that faith, or any similar one (read:  Christian).  Over the years, I have had friends who are Hindu (I believe that is a polytheistic faith...they seem to have lost count of their deities), Religio Romana, Buddhist, agnostic, atheist, etc., etc.  I’m not sure what you mean by inclusivist, or exclusivist, but I don’t judge people or friendships and such by the faith someone practices.  I don’t happen to think that anyone should be compelled to practice a religion in which they do not believe, and if you would kindly consult any US history textbook and the US Constitution, you may find similar sentiments.  The NR Constitution also grants freedom of private belief and practice to the citizenry, a freedom you and some others want to take away.  

I had sent my post to both A. Apollonius Cordus and C. Curius
Saturninus and they both said it wasn't offensive -just to be sure.

    ATS:  You didn’t mention that Cordus was your advocate at the time.  I would have expected better sense from him otherwise.  However, some people simply cannot recognize such concepts as propriety, inter alia.  

Our current censor Ti. Galerius Paulinus, candidates: Popillius
Laenas- censor , Gn Iulius Caesar-censor, Gn. Equitius Marinus-
praetor. Are all Christians, are they inclusivist? I hope so.

    ATS:  Cn. Iulius Caesar is running for aedilis curulis, not censor.  

I really think we need to make sure our officials personally take
the  oath to the gods,

    ATS:  Have you checked the Lex Iunia lately?  The oath of office is written to eliminate any fundamentalist monotheist from being able to take it in good conscience.  

take their own auspices etc Then this would
become a non-question.

    ATS: Not everyone knows how to do that, or wants to learn.  Some cannot.  Literally.  

Finally  there was this old idea in Nova Roma of 'orthopraxy' that
you didn't have to believe in the gods to take auspices etc; this is
a completely incorrect Christian interpretation of the cultus deorum.

    ATS:  Maybe, maybe not.

Christians think in terms of catechisms, binding written  professions
of faith. This is typical of their cultus only.

    ATS:  Not all of them, as another has pointed out.  Moreover, catechism is more for the religious instruction of children, not adult practice.  


 Jews don't do this at
all. We would ask is someone 'observant' meaning -do they perform
prayers and ceremonies, to see how religious they are. It is
orthopractic similar to the cultus deorum.
Modianus, who has a Rabbi as a professor helped me to realize this.

Romans saw themselves this way and the best example is in Livy XXVII,
8, 4-10; that of Valerius Flaccus, a dissipated Roman of bad
reputation who was made Flamen Dialis against his will. The result:
he became an exemplary Flamen Dialis.

    ATS:  If you look further into Catholicism, you might find some concepts such as ex opere operato rather than ex opere operantis...maybe that is heading in the same direction.  

So by taking auspices, holding games, honoring the gods, in Roman
eyes you will become a devout cultor, worshipper of the gods.
 M. Hortensia Maior
 sacerdos Mentis

Valete.  

>

> >
> >I most respectfully disagree
> with this. You, as well many here forget the fact
> >that there are not
> only exclusivist but also inclusivist Christians. I myself
> >am most
> devoted to the Roman religion but also have a belief in Christ, and
> >I
> have a similar inclusivist attitude towards many religions. My
> philosophy
> >and religion is Harmonism, as I call it.
>
>
>     You yourself acknowledge my point exactly: you are not a
Christian but
> a "Harmonist". The Christian faith itself is inherently
exclusivist, as are
> Judaism and Islam; it is a basic tenet of their beliefs. Now, one
can
> definitely believe in Jesus and his teachings (I do, mostly) yet
not be a
> Christian. I do not wish to "kick out all the Christians", but I do
wish to
> have Nova Roma do amazing things as an organization and I do not
wish
> to see people hinder it as Mr. Fraser has done. I see this in a
similar way
> to the idea that a Satanist would not be hired to work at a
Christian
> church; their beliefs and activities would be contradictory to one
another.
>     This is where my comments can be misunderstood. I do not mind
> having magistrates who include Jesus as one of the gods amongst all
the
> Roman gods and who would willingly perform rituals to the gods as a
part
> of their duty to the state. But Christians who follow their faith--
what you term
> "exclusivist Christians"--would be unable to do that, and may even
> disagree with Nova Roma overall (as we have seen with Mr. Fraser and
> his departure). These people should not be allowed to serve as
magistrates
> due to the fact that they refuse to recognize the gods (according
to section VI,
> subsection A, of the constitution; one must obviously recognize
their existence
> before offering respect) and refuse to take part in rituals.
>     So, I guess for me it comes down to this: no matter your faith,
you can
> help Nova Roma grow and do amazing things. Yet, if your faith
prevents
> you from doing this, or if it suggests that you actively prevent
such
> activity, I would suggest that you find another organization which
matches
> your beliefs more closely. I know Nova Roma has a history with
this, and
> it's obvious that it is still an issue. I hope we, as an
organization, can work
> together to make Nova Roma great. And, as always, I am willing to
> change my mind and position as new arguments come to light.
>     (As an aside, I self-identify as an "Indo-European polytheist".
I am
> very close to some strands of Hinduism, and I have started to
worship
> the Roman gods and goddesses this year. My faiths--both Hinduism and
> Religio Romana--have no problem with Shiva, Durga, Krishna, Iupiter,
> Diana, and Sol being on my altar together.)
>
> Deos deamque Romae amo! I love the gods and goddesses of Rome!
>
> --
> Gnaeus Caelius Ahenobarbus
> Aedilis Oppidi, Oppidum Fluminis Gilae, America Austroccidentalis
> Accensus, cos. M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus et T. Iulius Sabinus
> http://becomingnewthroughtheold.blogspot.com
>

 
      
   Messages in this topic           <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/58589

Reminder from:		Nova-Roma Yahoo! Group
Title:		Lord Apollo
Date:		Saturday November 1, 2008
Time:		12:00 pm - 1:00 pm
Repeats:		This event repeats every month on the first Saturday.
Notes:		Apollo is worshiped by many, including Romans. His most famous temple, the now-ruined Temple of Delphi, is once each week, at dawn on Sunday, the geographic axis of "Kyklos Apollon". At that time-Delphi dawn-we may perform the brief, potent ritual delineated in the group site. We may perform some other gesture, perhaps as simple as a nod of acknowledgment, a quick libation poured from a cup. But for this one moment, as the Sun first shines upon the ancient columns, we are together. Even though we are few, and scattered across the world, we are in that one moment *together*, a great Kyklos in the light of Apollon. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/KyklosApollon/ Hint: If you set your membership to "Special Notices", you will get only the group reminders with the correct sunrise time at Delphi each week. "Hestia, you who tend the holy house of the lord Apollo, the Far-shooter at goodly Pytho, with soft oil dripping ever from your locks, come now into this house, come, having one mind with Zeus the all-wise -- draw near, and withal bestow grace upon my song." (Homeric Hymns - XXIV) "We ask the blessing of ancient Hecate, faithful and awesome, daughter of the Titans Coeus and gold-crowned Phoebe. 'Great honor comes full easily to him whose prayers the goddess receives favorably'" (Hesiod, Theogony - VII) "Lord Apollo, How, then, shall I sing of you... who in all ways are a worthy theme of song?" (Homeric Hymn: to Delian Apollo)
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--------------
His services to Nova Roma are exemplary, and I think his loss is a
great hurt to my already fragile province. You accuse him of being a
bigot for calling the Religio Romana a false religion, and yet you
yourself express a desire for Nova Roma to be exclusively pagan (for
Judaism, Islam, and Christianity by definition consider all other
religions 'false' and so ineligible for membership in NR).
------------

I don't care how his service to Nova Roma was. He calls my religion false and therefore he is a bigot. I have not called any other religion false. Wanting a pagan org to have pagan members doesn't constitute calling all other non-pagan religions false. Your logic is in error. Nova Roma doesn't need bigots. We are better off without having bigots even if they are reluctant governors of provinces. Any and all bigots should have the decency to leave at once.

- Annia Minucia Marcella

Legata Pro Praetore Nova Britannia
http://novabritannia.org
http://myspace.com/novabritannia
http://ciarin.com/governor



----- Original Message -----

From: Robert Levee

To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 11:49 AM

Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Resignation of Citizenship Lucius Aurelius Severus

Salve Alexander,

I must say that I have to agree with Titus Aquila when he says that this is a good opportunity for you to seek a community of like minded Christians who are just as intolerent of the religio of others whom you can not agree with, and compels you to to insult our Religio as the false one.Truly an example of the religious intolerance of the early christians who were responsible for the persecution of our religio almost on par with the holocaust.

You knew when you joined Nova Roma that the State Religio was the Religio Romana.Did you truly believe that would change to suit your particular predudicial view of our Cultus Deorum.?Maybe you contemplated some sort of insurection by the christian element within our Res Publica.Even though time and time again, our leaders have stated that all faiths are welcome within Nova Roma .A testament to the attitude and to the desire to emulate, our ancient Roman roots, by respecting the tolerence which prevailed in that great Republic.

It is a matter of historical fact, that the christians of that age took advantage of this tolerence to destroy the greatest civilization the world has ever known, and plunged mankind into the thousand year dark ages.If not for that persecution of religion and science, man by now may have reached the stars,cured dreaded diseases,and solved many of the imperfections of our modern day world.To echo the sentiment of one of our most illustrious citizens,don' t let the swinging doors hit you in the glutius maximus on the way out.Vale

For the Gods!

Ap. Galerius Aurelianus

--- On Fri, 10/31/08, titus.aquila <titus.aquila@ yahoo.de> wrote:

> From: titus.aquila <titus.aquila@ yahoo.de>
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Resignation of Citizenship Lucius Aurelius Severus
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
> Date: Friday, October 31, 2008, 9:38 AM
> Salve Alexander,
>
> regret to see you leave.
>
> All the best for your future and I hope you will find an
> organisation which will fit in your Christian believe.
>
> On the other hand, reading your statement again, if you
> call my
> Religion the Religio Romana - the one I deeply admire,
> follow and
> believe in - a false Religion, then the best thing is, you
> really
> leave our Res Publica.
>
> Vale
> Titus Flavius Aquila
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _
> Von: L AVR SEVERVS <luciusaureliussever us@yahoo. com>
> An: NovaRoma-Announce@ yahoogroups. com
> Gesendet: Freitag, den 31. Oktober 2008, 13:24:32 Uhr
> Betreff: [NovaRoma-Announce] Resignation of Citizenship
>
>
> I, Alexander Fraser, known as Lucius Aurelius Severus,
> hereby resign
> my citizenship in Nova Roma.
>
> It has become clear that Nova Roma's policies and
> politicians are
> becoming more and more anti-Christian, a faith which I hold
> dear.
>
> As the only two candidates for Consul for 2762 intend to
> promote the
> cult of the "Religio Romana" during their term of
> office, and seeing
> that they are the only two candidates running for the 2
> offices of
> Consul, it is clear that they will be given this mandate.
>
> There is no way that I, as a devout and practicing
> Christian, will
> continue to participate in a recreational group that
> promotes false
> religion.
>
> In the words of Marcus Curiatius Complutensis:
>
> "We deeply believe that the cult of the Roman Religion
> must not be
> any
> more a private or even anecdotal matter and must become
> more public,
> really present in the every day life of Nova Roma and the
> Nova
> Romans."
>
> There is absolutely no way that a false religion will
> become part of
> my everyday life, whether in or out of Nova Roma.
>
> Therefore, I resign my citizenship effective immediately.
>
> Jesus Is Lord!
>
> Iesus Est Dominus!
>
> Signed,
>
> Alexander S. Fraser
>
> prid. Kal. Nov. ‡ M. Moravio T. Iulio cos. ‡ MMDCCLXI
> a.u.c.
>
> (October 31, 2008)

__________ NOD32 3571 (20081030) Information __________

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
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Salve,

A most beautiful offering...

Vale

Salvéte omnes,

Nothing like a bit of truth and logic to begin the day! Gratias tibi
Scholastica!
Thank you for giving the new members a look into the history of Nova
Roma and breathing life into those names we often only hear tossed
around in vehement banter either as flames or to give some sort of
self perceived credibility to the same people who are always
complaining and always getting the facts wrong. I would think that
after a few times of being corrected these same people would check
their facts, of course if they truly believe that they are
omniscient, that is even more frightening and then citizens should be
on their guard and think very carefully before entrusting them with
decisions of NR.


Valé, et valéte
L. Julia Aquila


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Tullia Scholastica"
<fororom@...> wrote:

>
> > A. Tullia Scholastica M. Hortensiae quiritibus, sociis,

peregrinisque bonae

> > voluntatis S.P.D.
> >
> >
> > M. Hortensia Cn. Caelio Cn. Cornelio spd;
> > I am totally fine with inclusivists. But last year my Saturnalia
> > and New Year's was ruined by having to fight a lawsuit, claiming I
> > incited hatred to Christianity brought by and then almost

adjudjed by

> > two non-inclusivist praetors: Cato and Scholastica. And Marinus

who

> > brought the suit.
> >
> > ATS: If your Saturnalia and New Year¹s were ruined, you have

only your

> > sharp tongue, pen, and keyboard to blame. Your post was beyond

outrageous, a

> > triumph of your inimitable style which those of us who have been

here long

> > enough have come to know all too well. Apparently your

multifarious

> > researches had not led you to our Constitution, or anything else

which might

> > have led to tolerance for all faiths in the citizenry and in the

magistrates.

> > Kindly note, too, that neither Cato¹s nor my religious views

(such as they are

> > in my case: minimal) had anything to do with our acceptance of

the petitio

> > actionis, or of any subsequent legal procedure. Normal people do

not live in

> > the land of emotions; they live in the land of reason, and make

decisions

> > based thereon. It is essential that the praetores in particular

do so, and

> > that is what we did. It may not be the case with others in that

post, but the

> > two of us followed the law, like it or not.
> >
> > Secondly, it seems very difficult to get certain things

through certain

> > skulls. No matter how many times I say this, you and some others

still seem

> > to think that I am a graduate of a convent and piously practice

the faith in

> > which I was raised. I do not. Moreover, I do not limit my

friendships to

> > those who practice that faith, or any similar one (read:

Christian). Over

> > the years, I have had friends who are Hindu (I believe that is a

polytheistic

> > faith...they seem to have lost count of their deities), Religio

Romana,

> > Buddhist, agnostic, atheist, etc., etc. I¹m not sure what you

mean by

> > inclusivist, or exclusivist, but I don¹t judge people or

friendships and such

> > by the faith someone practices. I don¹t happen to think that

anyone should be

> > compelled to practice a religion in which they do not believe,

and if you

> > would kindly consult any US history textbook and the US

Constitution, you may

> > find similar sentiments. The NR Constitution also grants freedom

of private

> > belief and practice to the citizenry, a freedom you and some

others want to

> > take away.
> >
> > I had sent my post to both A. Apollonius Cordus and C. Curius
> > Saturninus and they both said it wasn't offensive -just to be

sure.

> >
> > ATS: You didn¹t mention that Cordus was your advocate at the

time. I

> > would have expected better sense from him otherwise. However,

some people

> > simply cannot recognize such concepts as propriety, inter alia.
> >
> > Our current censor Ti. Galerius Paulinus, candidates: Popillius
> > Laenas- censor , Gn Iulius Caesar-censor, Gn. Equitius Marinus-
> > praetor. Are all Christians, are they inclusivist? I hope so.
> >
> > ATS: Cn. Iulius Caesar is running for aedilis curulis, not

censor.

> >
> > I really think we need to make sure our officials personally take
> > the oath to the gods,
> >
> > ATS: Have you checked the Lex Iunia lately? The oath of

office is

> > written to eliminate any fundamentalist monotheist from being

able to take it

> > in good conscience.
> >
> > take their own auspices etc Then this would
> > become a non-question.
> >
> > ATS: Not everyone knows how to do that, or wants to learn.

Some cannot.

> > Literally.
> >
> > Finally there was this old idea in Nova Roma of 'orthopraxy' that
> > you didn't have to believe in the gods to take auspices etc; this

is

> > a completely incorrect Christian interpretation of the cultus

deorum.

> >
> > ATS: Maybe, maybe not.
> >
> > Christians think in terms of catechisms, binding written

professions

> > of faith. This is typical of their cultus only.
> >
> > ATS: Not all of them, as another has pointed out. Moreover,

catechism is

> > more for the religious instruction of children, not adult

practice.

> >
> >
> > Jews don't do this at
> > all. We would ask is someone 'observant' meaning -do they perform
> > prayers and ceremonies, to see how religious they are. It is
> > orthopractic similar to the cultus deorum.
> > Modianus, who has a Rabbi as a professor helped me to realize

this.

> >
> > Romans saw themselves this way and the best example is in Livy

XXVII,

> > 8, 4-10; that of Valerius Flaccus, a dissipated Roman of bad
> > reputation who was made Flamen Dialis against his will. The

result:

> > he became an exemplary Flamen Dialis.
> >
> > ATS: If you look further into Catholicism, you might find

some concepts

> > such as ex opere operato rather than ex opere operantis...maybe

that is

> > heading in the same direction.
> >
> > So by taking auspices, holding games, honoring the gods, in Roman
> > eyes you will become a devout cultor, worshipper of the gods.
> > M. Hortensia Maior
> > sacerdos Mentis
> >
> > Valete.
> >
> >> >
> >
> >>> > >
> >>> > >I most respectfully disagree
> >> > with this. You, as well many here forget the fact
> >>> > >that there are not
> >> > only exclusivist but also inclusivist Christians. I myself
> >>> > >am most
> >> > devoted to the Roman religion but also have a belief in

Christ, and

> >>> > >I
> >> > have a similar inclusivist attitude towards many religions. My
> >> > philosophy
> >>> > >and religion is Harmonism, as I call it.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > You yourself acknowledge my point exactly: you are not a
> > Christian but
> >> > a "Harmonist". The Christian faith itself is inherently
> > exclusivist, as are
> >> > Judaism and Islam; it is a basic tenet of their beliefs. Now,

one

> > can
> >> > definitely believe in Jesus and his teachings (I do, mostly)

yet

> > not be a
> >> > Christian. I do not wish to "kick out all the Christians", but

I do

> > wish to
> >> > have Nova Roma do amazing things as an organization and I do

not

> > wish
> >> > to see people hinder it as Mr. Fraser has done. I see this in a
> > similar way
> >> > to the idea that a Satanist would not be hired to work at a
> > Christian
> >> > church; their beliefs and activities would be contradictory to

one

> > another.
> >> > This is where my comments can be misunderstood. I do not

mind

> >> > having magistrates who include Jesus as one of the gods

amongst all

> > the
> >> > Roman gods and who would willingly perform rituals to the gods

as a

> > part
> >> > of their duty to the state. But Christians who follow their

faith--

> > what you term
> >> > "exclusivist Christians"--would be unable to do that, and may

even

> >> > disagree with Nova Roma overall (as we have seen with Mr.

Fraser and

> >> > his departure). These people should not be allowed to serve as
> > magistrates
> >> > due to the fact that they refuse to recognize the gods

(according

> > to section VI,
> >> > subsection A, of the constitution; one must obviously recognize
> > their existence
> >> > before offering respect) and refuse to take part in rituals.
> >> > So, I guess for me it comes down to this: no matter your

faith,

> > you can
> >> > help Nova Roma grow and do amazing things. Yet, if your faith
> > prevents
> >> > you from doing this, or if it suggests that you actively

prevent

> > such
> >> > activity, I would suggest that you find another organization

which

> > matches
> >> > your beliefs more closely. I know Nova Roma has a history with
> > this, and
> >> > it's obvious that it is still an issue. I hope we, as an
> > organization, can work
> >> > together to make Nova Roma great. And, as always, I am willing

to

> >> > change my mind and position as new arguments come to light.
> >> > (As an aside, I self-identify as an "Indo-European

polytheist".

> > I am
> >> > very close to some strands of Hinduism, and I have started to
> > worship
> >> > the Roman gods and goddesses this year. My faiths--both

Hinduism and

> >> > Religio Romana--have no problem with Shiva, Durga, Krishna,

Iupiter,

> >> > Diana, and Sol being on my altar together.)
> >> >
> >> > Deos deamque Romae amo! I love the gods and goddesses of Rome!
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Gnaeus Caelius Ahenobarbus
> >> > Aedilis Oppidi, Oppidum Fluminis Gilae, America

Austroccidentalis

> >> > Accensus, cos. M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus et T. Iulius

Sabinus

> >> > http://becomingnewthroughtheold.blogspot.com
> >> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Messages in this topic
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/58589
>

Salve Aemilia!

Please do keep us updated! Thank you for bringing this to our
attention.

Vale!

Julia Aquila

-- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lyn Dowling" <ldowling@...> wrote:

>
>
> Salvete, omnes,
>
>
> This story, if it can be called that, ran on the Press Association

(UK)

> newswire earlier today. It has been neither updated nor clarified --

a

> terrible piece of non-journalism -- but the subject matter is of

interest.

> The "republic" to which the first line refers is Eire. No other

stories or

> information clarifies the title of the book, why or how it ended up

in

> Ireland, etc.
>
>
> I will post more if something comes up.
>
>
> Valete,
>
>
> L. Aemilia
>
>
> Roman book hidden for 200 years
>
>
> 8 hours ago
>
> A rare book written by one of the world's finest minds lay

undiscovered in

> the Republic's law library for almost 200 years, it has emerged.
>
> The ancient text by revered Roman statesman, lawyer and statesman

Cicero-

> which is just one of 11 surviving copies in the world - was tucked

away

> inside a larger volume since the 1800s.
>
> The book, published 500 years ago, was uncovered by Professor Colm

Kenny

> while he was carrying out research for a lecture on the influential
> philosopher.
>

Cn. Cornelius Lentulus, pontifex, sacerdos Concordiae, sacerdos Pannoniae, quaestor, legatus pro praetore: consulibus, praetoribus, tribunis plebis, senatui populoque Novo Romano, Quiritibus: salutem plurimam: Salvete, Quirites! May the Divine Harmony bless you all! The end of Concordia's Sacred Year and 10th Anniversary Year approaches us. These are getting to be my last Kalends and Ides sacrifices about our Tenth Anniversary. Nova Roma is 10 years old, and honouring this Tenth Anniversary I follow my vow and pray to Concordia constantly on every Kalends and Ides. This year of Nova Roma was all about making an end of internal conflicts and hate, and starting to think in terms of friendship, cooperation, common dreams, unity, development and concordance. This is 2761 AUC: the year of the Concordance. This ritual is focused on the concordance and peace between cultores deorum and Christians. This is one conflict within Nova Roma that shoul have to be ended and converted into peace and mutual understanding. Today is also the day of Christian Halloween. This has been the ritual for the Kalends of November. Please, citizens of Nova Roma, concentrate your prayers on the future of Nova Roma! Help us with your prayers to make more effective my sacrifice! PLEASE SEND YOUR PRAYERS TO MY E-MAIL ADDRESS! I especially ask our Magistrates and Senators: send me your prayers to Concordia and I will allocate them in the Virtual Temple of Concordia of the Nova Roman People: http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Aedes_Concordiae_Populi_Novi_Romani_%28Nova_Roma%29 Visit the Virtual Temple of Concordia and leave a personal, public prayer! PLEASE SEND YOUR PRAYERS TO MY E-MAIL ADDRESS! Today's sacrifice has been done before my home altar. I have worshiped Concordia for the unity, strengthen and harmony of the New Roman People and I have given Her wine and incense. The ritual has been this: +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ SACRIFICIUM CONCORDIAE KALENDIS NOVEMBRIBUS ANNIVERSARII SACRI X NOVAE ROMAE CONDITAE Favete linguis! (Beginning of the sacrifice.) PRAEFATIO Concordia Populi Novi Romani Quiritium, Dea pacis et amicitiae et fraternitatis, te hoc ture commovendo bonas preces precor, uti sies volens propitia Populo Novo Romano Quiritibus, mihi, domo, familiae! (Incense is placed in the focus of the altar.) Concordia Populi Novi Romani Quiritium, Dea pacis et amicitiae et fraternitatis, uti te ture commovendo bonas preces precatus sum, eiusdem rei ergo macte vino inferio esto! (Libation of wine is made.) PRECATIO Concordia Populi Novi Romani Quiritium, Dea pacis et amicitiae et fraternitatis, hisce Kalendis Novembribus anni undecimi Novae Romae conditae, te precor, veneror, quaesoque obtestorque: uti pacem concordiamque constantem societati Novae Romae tribuas; uti Christianos Novos Romanos et cultores deorum maiorum antiquorum in pace amicitiaque et fraternitate coniungas, utique Rem Publicam Populi Novi Romani Quiritium confirmes, augeas, adiuves, omnibusque discordiis liberes; utique Res Publica Populi Novi Romani Quiritium semper floreat; atque hoc anno anniversarii decimi Novae Romae conditae convalescat; atque pax et concordia, salus et gloria Novae Romae omni tempore crescat, utique Populo Novo Romano Quiritibus, Reique Publicae Populi Novi Romani Quiritium, mihi, domo, familiae omnes in hoc anno undecimo Novae Romae eventus bonos faustosque esse siris; utique sies volens propitia Populo Novo Romano Quiritibus, Reique Publicae Populi Novi Romani Quiritium, magistratibus, consulibus, praetoribus Populi Novi Romani Quiritium, tribunis Plebis Novae Romanae, Senatui Novo Romano, omnibus civibus, viris et mulieribus, pueris et puellabus Novis Romanis, mihi, domo, familiae! SACRIFICIUM Sicut verba nuncupavi, quaeque ita faxis, uti ego me sentio dicere: harum rerum ergo macte hoc vino libando, hoc ture ommovendo esto fito volens propitia hoc anno anniversarii decimi Novae Romae conditae Populo Novo Romano Quiritibus, Reique Publicae Populi Novi Romani Quiritium, magistratibus, consulibus, praetoribus Populi Novi Romani Quiritium, tribunis Plebis Novae Romanae, Senatui Novo Romano, Christianis Novis Romanis et cultoribus deorum maiorum antiquorum, omnibus civibus, viris et mulierbus, pueris et puellabus Novis Romanis, mihi, domo, familiae! (Libation is made and incense is sacrificed.) REDDITIO Concordia Populi Novi Romani Quiritium, Dea pacis et amicitiae et fraternitatis, uti te ture commovendo et vino libando bonas preces precatus sum, earundem rerum ergo macte vino inferio esto! (Libation of wine is made) Ilicet! (End of the sacrifice.) PIACULUM Iane, Concordia Populi Novi Romani Quiritium, Iuppiter Optime Maxmime, Iuno, Minerva, Omnes Di Immortales quocumque nomine: si quidquam vobis in hac caerimonia displicet, hoc vino inferio veniam peto et vitium meum expio. (Libation of wine is made.) VALETE IN CONCORDIA! Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus, Q U A E S T O R P O N T I F E X SACERDOS CONCORDIAE ------------------------------------------ Legatus Pro Praetore Provinciae Pannoniae Sacerdos Provinciae Pannoniae Interpres Linguae Hungaricae Accensus Consulum T. Iulii Sabini et M. Moravii Piscini Scriba Praetorum M. Curiatii Complutensis et M. Iulii Severi Scriba Aedilis Curulis P. Memmii Albucii Scriba Rogatoris Cn. Equitii Marini Scriba Interpretis Linguae Latinae A. Tulliae Scholasticae ------------------------------------------- Magister Sodalitatis Latinitatis Dominus Factionis Russatae Latinista, Classicus Philologus

---

Scopri la community di Io fotografo e video
Il nuovo corso di Gazzetta dello sport per diventare veri fotografi!

Salvete Quirites!

I fully agree with our Pontifex Maximus! May Mother Palatua hold her
hands over the Palatine, Rome and Nova Roma as she has for many
thousands of years. In her name I call for unity and tolerance! Rome,
in her different appearances have never won by being divided, only in
unity and tolerance lies our strength.

Please remember that our Constitution guarantee that "Citizenship is
open to anyone regardless of ..., religious affiliation" and "Nova
Roma shall approach all other religions with a syncretistic outlook,
offering friendship to all paths which acknowledge the right of those
who practice and honor the Religio Romana to do so and respect the
beliefs thereof."

I see Nova Roma as a tolerant, inclusivist Civitas or community. If we
aim to become a real nation somewhere in the future, we can't start
driving people out of our community. If we do we will be seen as if we
are "training" for religious and ethnic cleansing in our nation of the
future. That would not only be a catastrophe, it would for ever close
the door for us to become that nation that so many of us dream of.

Nova Roma has been built by many citizens, I haven't agreed with all
of them, but still each has put down their stone or stones to build
our future dream. Some of them have been inclusivist Cultores, some
have been inclusivist Christians some have been inclusivists of of any
religion. Others has been excusivists of many shades. The Religio
Romana has been the hostage of a exclusivist group of Cultores, which
stopped the Religio to grow and develop. Now those times are over and
I will never accept that the Religio go back to the prison of
intolerance and exclusivism.

I have a vision of a strong world republic, inspired by Romanitas and
the Roman way of living and government. This also include a world
ruled by inclusivism and Roman tolerance. In this world republic we
will have many religions and we need to start to learn how to handle
that beginning from today.

To be honest I have not only learnt from inclusivists, but also from
strong advocates for exclusivism. I have learnt a lot of positive
things about the Religio and roman culture, not only from
exclusivists, but also by defending the Res Publica against them. This
proves that we need to be careful to not throw "out the baby with the
bathing water" (as we say in Sweden). I rather stand listening to
people that I don't agree with, than loose the opportunity to learn
from them or from fighting their opinions (not themselves as persons).
Let's keep Nova Roma open minded. Christianity has already shown what
may happen if we close our ears and eyes. The Res Publica should never
choose such a unproductive road.

This vision includes many other things except religions and their
relations, but today I think there is a need to renew the promise of
tolerance, otherwise we will never be anything more than a sect.

Nova Roma is the home of our state-religion - Religio Romana -
tolerance will never mean that I will ever allow that position to be
threatened. Still I think we should look for unity and progress
instead of revenge and internal strife.

*************

1 nov 2008 kl. 09.20 skrev marcushoratius:

Salvete Quirites Novae Romae et omnes

When I walk into a forest I delight in the multiplicity and diversity
of Nature. There are the many trees, plants, animals, stones in
repetition, and yet each leaf on every tree is unique, each chipmunk
cavorting beneath the fallen leaves is unique, each acorn they gather
is unique. And at night I am greeted by the multiplicity, diversity,
and uniqueness of every star, galaxy, planet, meteor, comet, asteroid
and planetoid. In the undulating seas, teaming with life, I ponder
on the uniqueness of each arriving wave.

I think in the same way towards our community, noster Civitas, with
all of its diversity, multiplicity, and the uniqueness of every
individual who composes our Res Publica. Thus it is disturbing to
see not only the resignation of Aurelius Severus but also the one
tendered by Claudius Varro days before.

When each day I post on the fasti and I call upon the Gods to keep
you all safe and healthy, I do not exclude from my thoughts any of
the deities who might watch over us. I celebrate instead the
diversity and multiplicity of the religious life of our community.
Yes, I write primarily to cultores Deorum Romani. But then what does
that mean? Were there not Jews in the Roman Empire? And an
assortment of Christians? Muslims, Hindus, and at least one
delegation of Buddhists. Then there were Hellenes, Isiacists,
Mithraists and an assortment of others. Each sect offered to the
richness of diversity in the Roman Empire.

Therefore I cannot agree with expressions of exclusiveness that would
seek to expel those who follow another faith, or those who advocate
leaving Nova Roma because it includes people of diverse faiths. It
is disconcerting to me when someone does leave, whether Christian or
cultor Deorum, over his displeasure with the richness of our diverse
religious life in Nova Roma.

Like those words expressed by Symmachus, once Praefectus of Rome
under Christian emperors, my personal experience has been that people
of faith have an ability of transcending their own religious
traditions to arrive in the same spiritual understanding. There
are "many paths (that) lead to the sublime." We learn by interacting
with one another, and thus we can only stunt our own spiritual
development when we exclude ourselves from those of other faiths. And
the religious life of our community, too, would become stunted if
ever we should turn our back towards cultivating its rich diversity.


Di Deaeque vos bene ament

Marcus Moravius Piscinus Horatianus

Consul Senatus Populique Nova Romae
Pontifex Maximus, Augur, et Flamen Carmentalis


*****************
Valete

Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus

Princeps Senatus et Flamen Palatualis
Civis Romanus sum
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Main_Page
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
************************************************
Mons Palatinus, Clivus Victoriae
Palatine Hill, Incline of Victoriae

Maior wrote:

>>Our current censor Ti. Galerius Paulinus, candidates: Popillius
> Laenas- censor , Gn Iulius Caesar-censor, Gn. Equitius Marinus-
> praetor. Are all Christians, are they inclusivist? I hope so.<<

Salvete quirites!

Whoa! Please get your facts staight!!! I am NOT a Christian; as I
have stated many times. I ma not a follower of any organized
Religion. Nor am I a practitiner of the Religio. I respect it; and
I have had some very meaninful spiritual experiences conducting
cremonia as a magistrate.

In fact, anyone who knows my career knows I have always championed
the cause of the Religio in NR. I would also defend non-
practitioners as long as they are tolerant of the Religio and
acknowledge its preeminence in NR.

Maior that twice you have disparaged me in one week. And, BTW,
Caesar is running for aedile.

Valete,

C. Popillius Laenas

Salvete omnes,

Ah, yes. Now that I have his attention for a moment I wish to let all
of our good citizens know that C. Popillius Laenas has my full backing
and vote in his bid to become Censor. His loyalty and work for Nova
Roma over the years I have known him is unquestionable and I look
forward to seeing him at the helm of this important office.

Valete bene,

Quintus Suetonius Paulinus

Senator tribunicius

Salve!

I am in full agreement!

Vale,

Annia Minucia Marcella

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Titus Flavius Aquila
<titus.aquila@...> wrote:

>
> Salve Severus, amice
>
> thank you for your statement and I do agree partially.
>
> But , false religious wars ?
>
> Well we followers of the Religio Romana never ever have started any

religious war against Christians. In fact you will never

> here from us, that Christians have a false Religion. But to be very

honest with you, I am fed up that always we Pagans, Polytheists,

> Religio Romana followers are being asked to be tolerant. Many of us

have joined the Republic to find a homestead for the Religio Romana,
for our Religion and now have even within Nova Roma, in our Republic,
 statements like a false Religion. Here all kind of , sorry to say
that, wishy washy arguments to kind of excuse this person who did
state this blasphemy. "Well he did his job as a governor, he helped
there and there ".

>
> I do not care, if he did,  I feel personally insulted by this guy

and I will state that as I need to do .

>
> Optime vale
> Titus Flavius Aquila
>
>  
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> Von: M•IVL•SEVERVS <marcusiuliusseverus@...>
> An: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Gesendet: Samstag, den 1. November 2008, 01:10:15 Uhr
> Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Christians and their problems with Nova

Roma

>
>
> Severus Ahenobarbo s.d.
>
> Do not be confused nor confuse the others. Tolerance means neither

acceptance, nor submission. Those who confuse these concepts, are
usually the intolerant ones. And those are not Roman, not real
cultores deorum.

> We should reject any insult against the Religio. Our Constitution

orders us to do so.

> But we won't achieve anything by promoting false religious wars.
>
> Vale,
>
> M•IVL•SEVERVS
> PRÆTOR•NOVÆ•ROMÆ
>
> SENATOR
>

M. Hortensia Gn. Caelio spd;
Yes, Ahenobarbe, I think many don't know that there is this
entire 'proxy' situation in Nova Roma and the root cause of our
troubles.

I notice that some of those running for magistrate won't address
this important issue:

As Lentulus says, he is an Inclusivist he has no problem with
performing rituals and taking auspices. This is something we need to
make sure those we vote for do.

If we are culturally Roman; then we won't have these debates or
resignations. Our failure is that magistrates were allowed to 'opt
out' of their duties.

optime vale
Maior


ATS: Not everyone knows how to do that, or wants to learn.

>
> Your comment was so important, I'm repeating it here:
>
> >Under current Nova Roman law, cives running for magistracies can

opt

> >out of performing auspices and rituals personally and appoint
> >someone to do it for them. This is ahistorical and utterly

unRoman,

> >and the cause of our problems. If we have one culture, act as

Romans

> >we wouldn't have these periodic problems and fissures.
>
> I believe you are correct here. A "proxy ritual" ***in this

case***, and in my opinion, is unsatisfactory.

>
> >We need to change the law so all Romans who run for office will
> >perform their duties: taking auspices, participating in rituals

of

> >the religio romana were and are the duties of magistrates.
>
> I personally agree with this.
>
> >Letting magistrates avoid their responsibilites doen't help Nova
> >Roma, nor does it build Romanitas.
>
>
> I agree with you yet again.
>
> Optime vale!
>
> --
> Gnaeus Caelius Ahenobarbus
> Aedilis Oppidi, Oppidum Fluminis Gilae, America Austroccidentalis
> Accensus, cos. M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus et T. Iulius Sabinus
> http://becomingnewthroughtheold.blogspot.com
>

Salve Tite Flavi Aquila,

You sure haven't been here that long or you would not have this
observation. Among a few where some big fights started was that
Taurinus chap back about 2003 who flew into NR like a bat out of hell
and came down like a ton of bricks on the Christians blaming them for
everything, making nasty remarks about its founder and prompting some
prominant citizens to resign their posts. Citizens and some of our
priests, starting with Modianus will back me on this if you have no
time to go through the records. In my opinion, things were never
quite the same after that.

It seems that we cannot let a year or two go by without some rabble
rouser coming in and stirring up the pot but in time they fly off
clean as flatulence in a high wind.

Vale bene,

Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (2002)









--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Titus Flavius Aquila
<titus.aquila@...> wrote:

>
> Salve Severus, amice
>
> thank you for your statement and I do agree partially.
>
> But , false religious wars ?
>
> Well we followers of the Religio Romana never ever have started any

religious war against Christians. In fact you will never

> here from us, that Christians have a false Religion. But to be very

honest with you, I am fed up that always we Pagans, Polytheists,

> Religio Romana followers are being asked to be tolerant. Many of us

have joined the Republic to find a homestead for the Religio Romana,
for our Religion and now have even within Nova Roma, in our Republic,
 statements like a false Religion. Here all kind of , sorry to say
that, wishy washy arguments to kind of excuse this person who did
state this blasphemy. "Well he did his job as a governor, he helped
there and there ".

>
> I do not care, if he did,  I feel personally insulted by this guy

and I will state that as I need to do .

>
> Optime vale
> Titus Flavius Aquila
>
>  
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> Von: M•IVL•SEVERVS <marcusiuliusseverus@...>
> An: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Gesendet: Samstag, den 1. November 2008, 01:10:15 Uhr
> Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Christians and their problems with

Nova Roma

>
>
> Severus Ahenobarbo s.d.
>
> Do not be confused nor confuse the others. Tolerance means neither

acceptance, nor submission. Those who confuse these concepts, are
usually the intolerant ones. And those are not Roman, not real
cultores deorum.

> We should reject any insult against the Religio. Our Constitution

orders us to do so.

> But we won't achieve anything by promoting false religious wars.
>
> Vale,
>
> M•IVL•SEVERVS
> PRÆTOR•NOVÆ•ROMÆ
>
> SENATOR
>

Salve Maior,

I think asking magistrates to take auspices themselves is a bit
premature for Nova Roma.

As Scholastica pointed out, the oath of office is already designed to
prevent fundamentalist monotheists from taking it.

Performing rituals, but even more taking auspices, are special skills
which are not easily learned.

Even I, who have had the huge advantage of being able to work
alongside a real specialist, Lentulus, for more than one year, would
not feel comfortable yet performing public rituals on my own (maybe in
a few months).

And taking auspices is a much more complicated matter, that requires
having at your disposal a suitable natural environment, rising before
dawn to make long preparations, and having experience about birds' habits.
Not something for a city-dweller like me, but also not something for
all those who don't live close to someone who can teach them.

A requirement like this would drastically limit the number of people
able to apply for magistracies and plunge us into a major crisis.

We have specialists to take auspices, the augurs, and even of those we
have only two, which shows you it's not an easy task to accomplish.

Optime vale,
L. Livia Plauta

Salve L. Livia Plauta,

Since we are not living in a Roman city or village together and
confined to cyber space for the forseeable future, one thing that
crosses my mind is how can we be certain that real auspices have been
taken and someone isn't just giving lip service or play acting within
their office and not really doing it? I suppose you would have to
make them put it on video disc with a video person and witnesses to
boot or somehow arrange a live feed to show that this is really being
done. I take our pontiffs at their word but I'm not sure about others.

Vale bene,

QSP


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucia Livia Plauta" <cases@...>
wrote:

>
> Salve Maior,
>
> I think asking magistrates to take auspices themselves is a bit
> premature for Nova Roma.
>
> As Scholastica pointed out, the oath of office is already designed

to

> prevent fundamentalist monotheists from taking it.
>
> Performing rituals, but even more taking auspices, are special

skills

> which are not easily learned.
>
> Even I, who have had the huge advantage of being able to work
> alongside a real specialist, Lentulus, for more than one year, would
> not feel comfortable yet performing public rituals on my own (maybe

in

> a few months).
>
> And taking auspices is a much more complicated matter, that requires
> having at your disposal a suitable natural environment, rising

before

> dawn to make long preparations, and having experience about birds'

habits.

> Not something for a city-dweller like me, but also not something for
> all those who don't live close to someone who can teach them.
>
> A requirement like this would drastically limit the number of people
> able to apply for magistracies and plunge us into a major crisis.
>
> We have specialists to take auspices, the augurs, and even of those

we

> have only two, which shows you it's not an easy task to accomplish.
>
> Optime vale,
> L. Livia Plauta
>

Quirites !

I have not wished disturbing our Forum, campaigning for coming
elections.

I would just like here, in our Kalends of November, to inform every
Nova Roma citizen that I have decided to run this year for Praetor,
after having fulfilled my obligations of quaestor two years ago, and
this year as aedilis curulis.

I am honored to be able, if you Quirites consider that I deserve your
confidence and your vote, seating near candidate praetor Hon.
Censorius Equitius Marinus who, I have no doubt about it, will
receive your approval.

I will have further opportunities to thank my whole aedilitas team
and all the illustri cives that have brought to me their support.

You may find my candidacy statement at:

http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Election_MMDCCLXI_%28Nova_Roma%
29/Publius_Memmius_Albucius

and my short novaroman bio at:

http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Publius_Memmius_Albucius_%28Nova_Roma%29


I remain at your disposal, Quirites, and thank you for your support.


Valete omnes,



P. Memmius Albucius
aed. cur. sen. leg. pp. Galliae
candidatus praetor

--
Gnaeus Caelius Ahenobarbus
Aedilis Oppidi, Oppidum Fluminis Gilae, America Austroccidentalis
Accensus, cos. M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus et T. Iulius Sabinus
http://becomingnewthroughtheold.blogspot.com

Cn. Iulius Caesar M. Hortensiae Maori Quiritibus et omnibus sal

<< I notice that some of those running for magistrate won't address
this important issue: >>

Let me, as a candidate in this election address this issue directly,
for Maior you maybe lumping me in that category - intentionally or
not. If not, well you have made one error and one assumption that was
an error already in the course of this general thread, so I think you
may understand why I address it.

I have no objections whatsoever to taking the auspices should I be
successful in being elected. I have diligently read the digest by our
Pontifex Maximus on the subject, as well as perused the source
material he cited. This private study of mine dates back to the
previous debates on this matter. I can do this with a totally clear
mind, free from any conflicting religious scruples as I am not
Christian, as I have already said. I am though a mere novice, albeit
willing to learn more. At this stage embarking on taking the auspices
with only the benefit of this level of self-study is not something
that I think is appropriate, nor is it something I am willing to
risk. Nor should anyone encourage any candidates, however willing to,
embark on taking the auspices simply for the sake of being as Roman
as possible. I will utilize the services of the appointed Augurs, for
they have the experience.

Here is the crux of the matter. Simply passing a law imposing this
is not good enough. Indeed it would be potentially disastrous. Hand
in hand with such a law would have to be a well-established framework
for advice. Amongst all citizens, including those who cleave to the
Cultus Deorum, there is little experience in these matters. I will be
looking out for the establishment of an effective training program
and support system, as a transition to the point of magisterial self-
sufficiency in taking the auspices.

I am also mindful that much of the legislative proposals on religious
matters that have come before this forum in the past have seemed to
have some sort of political sub-agenda. That is inevitable in Nova
Roma - a very political place, but let us be frank about another
possible consequence of this proposed change in the law.

Were this proposal to be passed it would effectively disbar many
committed Christians from public life in Nova Roma. Some may struggle
through some sort of mental gymnastics justifying it to themselves,
but many would not. Through backdoor means the ends of those who
hanker after a "pagan" only controlled respublica would be achieved. -
well on the face of it. The consequence however would be to
encourage those who are inept or secretly religiously challenged by
the practice of augury to fake it, to lie. That is at one extreme,
while at the other end you simply have those magistrates who are
likely to make a royal mess of taking the auspices.

The Senior Consul noted on my sublection to the Senate that I
advocate practical solutions. Indeed I do, and in this proposal I
see, if rushed through, a hideous mess of potentially disastrous
consequences forming over Nova Roma's collective head. If the
auspices are indeed meant to be taken seriously (I believe this is
so), then a rushed and hurried proposal being passed into law could
bring (more?) displeasure from the Gods upon this respublica. If the
auspices are however just meant to be just a ritualistic nod to Rome
of Antiquity, then this must be by definition a political proposal
aimed at eliminating a sub-group of citizens (Christians) from the
political process. Either way the result will be quite negative.

This proposal is a non-starter at the moment, unless of course it has
that political sub-agenda lying behind it.

Vale et valete.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> M. Hortensia Gn. Caelio spd;
> Yes, Ahenobarbe, I think many don't know that there is this
> entire 'proxy' situation in Nova Roma and the root cause of our
> troubles.
>

>

-Maior Albucio Quiritibusque spd;
I can gladly second this support! P. Memmius Albucius has been a
fantastic curule aedile, I know as I was his questor this year and
when the other curule aedile went missing in action, he made sure the
Ludi in honor of Magna Mater went on.
Albucius is a terrific Roman, full of the virtues we admire.
M. Hortensia Maior

>  
> These are very good news! I gladly support P. Memmius Albucius

candidacy for Praetor. I can't hardly think of a cives more capable
and prepared to fulfill the duties of the Praetorship.

> I ask you all, Quirites, to give your votes to Albucius!
>  
> Vale, et valete optime,
>
> M•IVL•SEVERVS
> PRÆTOR•NOVÆ•ROMÆ
>
> SENATOR
> CANDIDATVS•CONSVL
>

Maior Ahenobarbo Livae s.p.d.
I think this is an excellent idea too, I agree with Plauta that
it will take time and I agree with Ahenobarbus' practical
suggestion. He's already made a video of a ritual to Sol.

Last Sunday, I was in the country by a river and held a ritual in
honor of dea Carmentis, which I will post here on the ML. I'd
written to Lentulus and he sent me the prayer in correct Latin.

Yes, I made a mistake during the ritual, so I started over again.
The only way for Nova Roma to go forward is for us to make videos
and start practicing taking auspices and performing ritual.

I remember the old CP making excuses about nothing being done in
Nova Roma and it is all balderdash. This year has been fantastic and
next even better. All Nova Romans can learn, and I know Sabinus,
Piscinus, Modianus, Lentulus, myself and many others are glad, ready
willing and able to help them!
optime vale
M. Hortensia Maior

>
> >how can we be certain that real auspices have been
> >taken and someone isn't just giving lip service or play acting

within

> >their office and not really doing it?
>
> I think the idea of recording the rituals is great. Just think

if we recorded every ritual in some manner: video, audio, or photo.
We've seen some of this when it comes to the rituals done in Europe
this year, our oppidum's ritual to Sol a couple of weeks ago, etc.
But we could end up making a huge multimedia library of rituals that
people could watch and from which they could learn. What an amazing
tool for the propagation of the Religio Romana it would be!

>
> Optime vale!
> --
> Gnaeus Caelius Ahenobarbus
> Aedilis Oppidi, Oppidum Fluminis Gilae, America Austroccidentalis
> Accensus, cos. M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus et T. Iulius Sabinus
> http://becomingnewthroughtheold.blogspot.com
>

M. Hortensia Quiritibus spd;
as promised here is the text of the ritus to Carmentis that
Lentulus kindly helped to prepare for me.

Last Sunday October 26th I was with other cultores in the country
and was able to perform this ritual in the Haw River. I will also
celebrate the Carmentalia live and make sure I have photos to post.

Remember Dea Carmenta does not take blood offerings and you must not
wear leather shoes or clothing when conducting ritual to her or in
her precincts...If anyone wishes any help or advice with this
ritual. Contact me.
Dea Carmentis vobis ament
M. Hortensia Maior
Flaminica Carmentalis



THE TEXT:

Huc ades, Carmentis, sorores Porrima Postvortaque tibi adsint, animá
laetá
veni, Mater Evanderi!

Carmentis, te hoc ture obmovendo bonas preces precor, ut sis volens
propitia
nobis liberisque notris domibus familiisque nostris.

Carmentis, ut te ture obmovendo bonas preces precatus (precata) sum
macte istá
libatione pollicendá esto, macte lacte inferio esto.

In tuá, Mater carissima, in tuá sumus custodiá. Carmentis, te hác
popaná
obmovendá bonas preces precor, uti sis volens propitia nobis
liberisque nostris
domibus familiisque nostris macte hoc ferto.

Mater Carmentis, uti te popaná commovendá bonas preces bene precatus
(precata) sum, eiusdem rei ergo macte lacte esto.

Ilicet. Di deaeque omnes, superi atque inferi, nos semper ament et
felices esse
volunt.

Salvete,

I've watched the latest edition of "beat up on the Christians" for at least the 20th time with mild amusement. It happens on a fairly regular basis here, and has since almost the first days of Nova Roma. Before we founded this organization over 10 years ago, there was fairly heated discussion about whether to allow Christians into Nova Roma. We allowed it, and the rest is history and I think we're a better organization for it, as Christians have contributed immeasurably to it. Alas, little did we know the trap we laid for them.

When we were founded, my fear was a potential Christian takeover of Nova Roma, thinking some might view it a great symbolic move to take over Rome the second time. It's why the Lex Iunia instituting the oath of office exists, to weed out extreme fundamentalist Christians from holding office here. I think it has done that.

What we did not foresee was the intolerance of our fellow pagans/cultores against Christians and the desire to proclaim that intolerance at the drop of a hat. These Christian bashing affairs are occasionally started by a an anti-pagan comment by a Christian like the recently resigned Canadian, Mr. Fraser, but these instigations are rare. Occasionally the innocent wishing of Merry Christmas or whatever Christian holiday will unleash the hordes of Christian bashers, but usually the Christian bashing is started by a follower of the Religio with no provocation, and many usually jump in until the dead horse lies even more putrid than it did before.

Generally I pass over these arguments/Christian bashing (same argument, different year), or chuckle at some of the points as a guilty pleasure (it's not that I entirely disagree with the points made by my fellow cultores, it's just I think we have to move beyond Christian bashing). However, to see the subject line that the Christians in Nova Roma have problems with the organization, or another comment problem implying Christians attack the Religio on a regular basis lead me to speak up to correct the record.

This is not just a religious organization; it is meant to be the heir to the Roman Republic and Empire, reborn in the form of a Republic, with people of every faith working to restore the temples and the Roman people. To my fellow cultores who joined knowing Christians were allowed to be an integral part of this organization, I have to ask, why are you here, when you have such a problem with their presence?

Vale,

Palladius

Cn. Iulius Caesar Cn. Caelio Ahenobarbo sal.

Out of mild interest, who are we meant to be defending the Religio
from?

Mr. Fraser, as we were all informed sometime ago, has left this list.
It surely can't be him all that all these posts are aimed at. He
can't read them, so it would just be a pointless exercise in chest
beating and venting to aim them at his posterior - now departed. Is
this plethora of revulsion just some general emotional typed vomiting
in reaction to his offensive comment, or does it actually have a
specific target, for if it is a defense there has to be an opponent,
an enemy, and a real one, not a presumed one. Who is it?


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Caelius Ahenobarbus
<cn.caelius@...> wrote:

>
> Cn. Caelius Ahenobarbus D. Iunio Palladio s.p.d.
>
>
> I hate to pull out the "he started it" card, but here it is.

This is NOT a "beat up on the Christians" thread; this is a defense
of the Religio Romana. Sure, emotions run high; it's an emotional
issue at times. But this came out of nowhere due to Mr. Fraser's
post. Please place the blame where it belongs: squarely upon his
shoulders, like the cross that Jesus, "King of the Jews", dragged
down the road.

Salve Ahenobarbe,

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Caelius Ahenobarbus
<cn.caelius@...> wrote:

>
> Cn. Caelius Ahenobarbus D. Iunio Palladio s.p.d.
>
> >I've watched the latest edition of "beat up on the Christians" for

at least the 20th time with mild amusement.

>
> If I may quote the message that started this whole discussion,

it reads in part:

>
> "There is no way that I, as a devout and practicing Christian, will

continue to participate in a recreational group that promotes false
religion." -- Alexander S. Fraser, ex-Lucius Aurelius Severus

>
> I hate to pull out the "he started it" card, but here it is.
>This is NOT a "beat up on the Christians" thread; this is a defense
>of the Religio Romana. Sure, emotions run high; it's an emotional
>issue at times. But this came out of nowhere due to Mr. Fraser's >post.

A Mr. Fraser who resigned and can't read any of your comments. It was
a convenient excuse to engage in our favorite sport of Christian
baiting, because the audience is the other Christians remaining, not
Fraser.

Besides, I do believe I said this thread was started by Mr. Fraser,
one of the rare times a provocative Christian actually started one of
these arguments. I was just putting the whole thing in its historical
perspective.

Vale,

Palladius

C. Petronius Maiori s.p.d.,

> THE TEXT:

> Huc ades, Carmentis, sorores Porrima Postvortaque tibi adsint,

animá

> laetá
> veni, Mater Evanderi!

Evandri. (The king Evander/Evandri from the Greek ander = man. His
declension is the same than Alexander.)

> Carmentis, te hoc ture obmovendo bonas preces precor, ut sis volens
> propitia
> nobis liberisque notris domibus familiisque nostris.

> Carmentis, ut te ture obmovendo bonas preces precatus (precata) sum
> macte istá
> libatione pollicendá esto, macte lacte inferio esto.

> In tuá, Mater carissima, in tuá sumus custodiá.

tutelá is best than custodiá.

Carmentis, te hác

> popaná
> obmovendá

te hoc popano obmovendo (if your *popana is the offering
cake "popanum", I do not know the word popana.Except plurial form of
popanum, in his case you must write "te his popanis obmovendis". But
what is the recipe to make a popanum? I am interesting about.)

> bonas preces precor, uti sis volens propitia nobis
> liberisque nostris
> domibus familiisque nostris macte hoc ferto.

> Mater Carmentis, uti te popaná commovendá

popono commovendo

> bonas preces bene precatus
> (precata) sum,

What is the meaning of this sentence?

"Mother Carmentis, I give this good prayers in order to you popanum
must be move vigorously..." ? or "Mother Carmentis, in order to I
pray you well in moving you with a popanum..." (in the case of uti
with subjonctive you have to write "precata sim".

The meaning is not clear to me. Anyway I hope Carmentis understood
you.

> eiusdem rei ergo macte lacte esto.

> Ilicet. Di deaeque omnes, superi atque inferi, nos semper ament et
> felices esse
> volunt.

Vale.

C. Petronius Dexter

C. Petronius P. Albucio s.p.d.,

> I am honored to be able, if you Quirites consider that I deserve your
> confidence and your vote,

O P. Albuci, you have my whole confidence and, of course my support
with my vote to your praetorship.

I liked the games that you gave in honour of the gods and Nova Roma. My
mirmilio, Hierocles, and my auriga Stolo, which are not citizens,
exhorted me to vote for you, and I will do.

Fortuna tecum sit et tibi, candidato praetorio, dii deaeque faveant.

C. Petronius Dexter

Maior C. Petronio spd;
I'm grateful Dexter for your help & corrections.We'll need
Lentulus here to sort the text out. And then I'll redo the ceremony.

Since I've comitted a vitium please help with the piaculum, which
I must now perform.
here is an example by Scaurus:
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Expiatory_Concordia_rite_MMDCCLVII

and here is a link to a recipe for a spelt offering cake:
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Spelt_cake
except for honey that's the recipe you'd find for a barley offering
cake in Mark Grant's "Roman Cookery" (an excellent book) that I just
checked.

I actually used spelt bread, as it was to hand. The main thing is to
procede with ceremonies; if we wait for fear of making a mistake, we
can always redo the ceremony with a piaculum. The gods are
benevolent.

Carmentis will be satisfied with my piaculum. The shrewd Romans had
answers for just these things.
bene vale
Maior
-




-- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Petronius Dexter"
<jfarnoud94@...> wrote:

>
>
> C. Petronius Maiori s.p.d.,
>
> > THE TEXT:
>
> > Huc ades, Carmentis, sorores Porrima Postvortaque tibi adsint,
> animá
> > laetá
> > veni, Mater Evanderi!
>
> Evandri. (The king Evander/Evandri from the Greek ander = man. His
> declension is the same than Alexander.)
>
> > Carmentis, te hoc ture obmovendo bonas preces precor, ut sis

volens

> > propitia
> > nobis liberisque notris domibus familiisque nostris.
>
> > Carmentis, ut te ture obmovendo bonas preces precatus (precata)

sum

> > macte istá
> > libatione pollicendá esto, macte lacte inferio esto.
>
> > In tuá, Mater carissima, in tuá sumus custodiá.
>
> tutelá is best than custodiá.
>
> Carmentis, te hác
> > popaná
> > obmovendá
>
> te hoc popano obmovendo (if your *popana is the offering
> cake "popanum", I do not know the word popana.Except plurial form

of

> popanum, in his case you must write "te his popanis obmovendis".

But

> what is the recipe to make a popanum? I am interesting about.)
>
> > bonas preces precor, uti sis volens propitia nobis
> > liberisque nostris
> > domibus familiisque nostris macte hoc ferto.
>
> > Mater Carmentis, uti te popaná commovendá
>
> popono commovendo
>
> > bonas preces bene precatus
> > (precata) sum,
>
> What is the meaning of this sentence?
>
> "Mother Carmentis, I give this good prayers in order to you

popanum

> must be move vigorously..." ? or "Mother Carmentis, in order to I
> pray you well in moving you with a popanum..." (in the case of uti
> with subjonctive you have to write "precata sim".
>
> The meaning is not clear to me. Anyway I hope Carmentis understood
> you.
>
> > eiusdem rei ergo macte lacte esto.
>
> > Ilicet. Di deaeque omnes, superi atque inferi, nos semper ament

et

> > felices esse
> > volunt.
>
> Vale.
>
> C. Petronius Dexter
>

Agricola Lucitano Omnibusque S.P.D.

We may have missed something here. Lucitane, you said "Roman
citizenship", and when you say so you confirm that you agree with what
is plainly stated, that we are a Res Publica, a sovereign state, and
one that is devoted to Roman culture in all of its aspects.

In his letter of resignation, Severus used the phrase "a recreational
group".

What we may have missed is that this isn't the christian/pagan debate
again, it is really the old "club/micronation" debate, dressed up in
new clothes.

Now maybe I'm wrong, but I think that this difference of view of "What
We Are" can cause people to behave differently and to have different
attitudes toward how tolerant or accepting they want to be with
regards to the nature of groups they may participate in.

For me, and I know for many of you too, this isn't a recreation but
fully part of my life. I don't think that I am developing a persona,
as I would if I were a member of the SCA or any number of other
groups. Well, I shan't go on about that. I just think that people who
come in thinking this is a recreation, no matter how seriously they
recreate with us, are keeping part of us at arm's length and are not
fully participating in our revival of Roman culture. And as we have
recently discussed, the Roman religion, so to call it, was inseparable
from Roman culture.

Finally, I want to affirm that I believe that it is up to each person,
regardless of how they are labeled, by themselves or by others, to
decide to participate with us or not. It would not be proper for
others to decide that "a person who says he or she is X cannot
participate here because the nature of being X prevents it".



optime valete!


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Bruno Cantermi" <brunocantermi@...>
wrote:

>
> Salve Aurelianus!
>
> I, Lucius Fidelius Lusitanus, am also a christian myself, and I also

hold dear, but I'm more tolerate in matters of religion than other
christian citizens here in Nova roma, and I think that Severus'
attitude of resigning Roman citizenship was rather radical than
offensive in matters concerning to him, because he's seeming like an
extremist, and intolerance is not good for a nation which for me, I've
been so many people being friends without discriminating no one in
matters of Religion, Race, Color or other things, but behving like one
single unity for the common welfare of the society. I would never
practice the Religio Romana, but I'll Respect it for the remainder of
my life, 'cause one of the main things I want to do in Nova Roma is
making friends and be a good Cives, not discriminate people in matters
of Religion. Sincerely, I'd think Severus ought to review his concepts
in matters of tolerance, Don't you agree?

>
> Vale,
>
> LVC.FID.LVSITANVS.SPD.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Robert Levee
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 11:49 AM
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Resignation of Citizenship Lucius

Aurelius Severus

>
>
>

________________________________________

> > Von: L AVR SEVERVS <luciusaureliusseverus@...>
> > An: NovaRoma-Announce@yahoogroups.com
> > Gesendet: Freitag, den 31. Oktober 2008, 13:24:32 Uhr
> > Betreff: [NovaRoma-Announce] Resignation of Citizenship
> >
> >
> > I, Alexander Fraser, known as Lucius Aurelius Severus,
> > hereby resign
> > my citizenship in Nova Roma.
> >
> > It has become clear that Nova Roma's policies and
> > politicians are
> > becoming more and more anti-Christian, a faith which I hold
> > dear.
> >
> > As the only two candidates for Consul for 2762 intend to
> > promote the
> > cult of the "Religio Romana" during their term of
> > office, and seeing
> > that they are the only two candidates running for the 2
> > offices of
> > Consul, it is clear that they will be given this mandate.
> >
> > There is no way that I, as a devout and practicing
> > Christian, will
> > continue to participate in a recreational group that
> > promotes false
> > religion.
> >
> > In the words of Marcus Curiatius Complutensis:
> >
> > "We deeply believe that the cult of the Roman Religion
> > must not be
> > any
> > more a private or even anecdotal matter and must become
> > more public,
> > really present in the every day life of Nova Roma and the
> > Nova
> > Romans."
> >
> > There is absolutely no way that a false religion will
> > become part of
> > my everyday life, whether in or out of Nova Roma.
> >
> > Therefore, I resign my citizenship effective immediately.
> >
> > Jesus Is Lord!
> >
> > Iesus Est Dominus!
> >
> > Signed,
> >
> > Alexander S. Fraser
> >
> > prid. Kal. Nov. ‡ M. Moravio T. Iulio cos. ‡ MMDCCLXI
> > a.u.c.
> >
> > (October 31, 2008)
>
>

 A. Tullia Scholastica C. Petronio Dextro omnibus bonae voluntatis S.P.D.

    While we’re at it, and in preparation for correcting yet another set of Grammatica I papers...


C. Petronius Maiori s.p.d.,

> THE TEXT:
 
> Huc ades, Carmentis, sorores Porrima Postvortaque tibi adsint,
animá
> laetá
> veni, Mater Evanderi!

Evandri. (The king Evander/Evandri from the Greek ander = man. His
declension is the same than Alexander.)

    ATS:  Indeed, and I suspect that that’s what Lentulus provided.  
 
> Carmentis, te hoc ture obmovendo bonas preces precor, ut sis volens
> propitia
> nobis liberisque notris domibus familiisque nostris.

    ATS:  And here we should have nostris.  Notris looks too French, but won’t pass even there.  
 
> Carmentis, ut te ture obmovendo bonas preces precatus (precata) sum
> macte istá
> libatione pollicendá esto, macte lacte inferio esto.
 
> In tuá, Mater carissima, in tuá sumus custodiá.

tutelá is best than custodiá.

    ATS:  The Oxford Latin Dictionary gives protection, safekeeping, defense, guard as the first meaning of custódia, citing Caesar and Cicero among others. This seems quite fine to me.  

Carmentis, te hác
> popaná
> obmovendá`

te hoc popano obmovendo (if your *popana is the offering
cake "popanum", I do not know the word popana.Except plurial form of
popanum, in his case you must write "te his popanis obmovendis". But
what is the recipe to make a popanum? I am interesting about.)

    ATS:  The only possible source listed for this form is indeed popanum, and since the -a must mark a neuter plural, it does have to be popanís obmovendís.   For recipes, I think you may have to consult the cooking sodalitas or the CP.  The OLD simply notes that these were round sacrificial cakes; the name is Greek in origin (πÏŒπανον, popanon, proparoxytone).

> bonas preces precor, uti sis volens propitia nobis
> liberisque nostris
> domibus familiisque nostris macte hoc ferto.
 
> Mater Carmentis, uti te popaná commovendá

popono commovendo

    ATS:  Or maybe popanis commovendis...or obmovendis

> bonas preces bene precatus
> (precata) sum,

What is the meaning of this sentence?

"Mother Carmentis, I give this good prayers in order to you popanum
must be move vigorously..." ? or "Mother Carmentis, in order to I
pray you well in moving you with a popanum..." (in the case of uti
with subjonctive you have to write "precata sim".

    ATS:  If it’s like most of the prayers, it means something like I have prayed good prayers [to you] by offering cakes [to you].  They seem to like the cognate accusative.  Commovére also means waken, rouse to action, stimulate, interest, prompt, impress, excite, influence as well as move vigorously, agitate, rout, etc.  Perhaps the gerundive does go with te, in the feminine, after all, but then one would need a verb of offering with the popana, probably a gerundive, possibly in the ablative absolute or ablative of means.   Ut té commovendá popanís [missing gerundive, maybe obmovendis], but this, too, is problematic.  It also seems that something like sis volens propitia is missing.  Yes, with ut one often has a subjunctive, but subjunctives can live without ut, and ut can live without subjunctives.  Not, however, in purpose or result clauses, which seems to be what we should have here.   Maybe be uti commota popanis obmovendis volens propitia sis, in order that prompted by these sacrificial cakes which have been offered, you be willingly propitious...[populo Novo Romano, maybe?]

    As is, it seems to mean Mother Carmentis,  I have prayed good prayers, [unclear] therefore be honored by milk [unclear; seems to mean of the same thing].  

The meaning is not clear to me. Anyway I hope Carmentis understood
you.

    ATS:  So do I.  

> eiusdem rei ergo macte lacte esto.

> Ilicet. Di deaeque omnes, superi atque inferi, nos semper ament et
> felices esse
> volunt.

    ATS: Here we seem to need another subjunctive, paired with ament.

Vale.

C. Petronius Dexter

Vale,

A. Tullia Scholastica

 
      
   Messages in this topic           <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/58673
 

---

Cn. Lentulus C. Petronio et Hortensiae sal. When writing Latin prayers of the Roman religion, one must know its very specific language and fixed phrases, formulas, obligatory elements. There are some linguistic phenomena in Roman prayers that aren't understandable by someone who knows just classical Latin. Roman ritual language is a separate language to learn! >>>> Evandri. (The king Evander/Evandri from the Greek ander = man. His declension is the same than Alexander.) <<< This is true. Evander's genitive: Evandri. >>> tutelá is best than custodiá. <<< Both are good. But here we must observe an entirely extralinguistical point: this ritual text has a history of using in Nova Roma. We can modifiy it but more exactle we can't. Roman ritual abhors from any innovation, though there exists some trickery to make modifications. What I want to say that since custodia was in the original NR ritual used by the flamen for years and costodia is good Latin, a modification here is impossible and would be a sacrilege. >>> te hoc popano obmovendo (if your *popana is the offering cake "popanum", I do not know the word popana.Except plurial form of popanum, in his case you must write "te his popanis obmovendis".<<< It is a valid correction. This error remained in the text inadvertently. >>> > bonas preces bene precatus > (precata) sum, What is the meaning of this sentence?<<< This is exactly an example to ritual language. This is how you have to ask from a god in a Roman ritual. "Mater Carmentis, uti te popano commovendo bonas preces bene precata sum..." It means: "Mother Carmentis, as by offering you this popanum I have prayed you good prayers well..." >>> (in the case of uti with subjonctive you have to write "precata sim". <<< No, in this case you are wrong, because this type of "ut" doesn't need the conjunctive (or subjunctive as you call it). This "ut" means "since", "as", for example when you say "ut jam ipse dixi...", "as I have already said..."

---

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C. Petronius Cn. Lentulo suo s.p.d.,

> When writing Latin prayers of the Roman religion, one must know its

very specific language and fixed phrases, formulas, obligatory
elements. There are some linguistic phenomena in Roman prayers that
aren't understandable by someone who knows just classical Latin.<

It is true and reverently thought, but I know the piacula of Cato are
accurate.

> Roman ritual language is a separate language to learn!

Ok, but it does not accept incorrect expressions and words.

> Both are good. But here we must observe an entirely

extralinguistical point: this ritual text has a history of using in
Nova Roma. We can modifiy it but more exactle we can't. Roman ritual
abhors from any innovation, though there exists some trickery to make
modifications.<

If I am not wrong, this piaculum to Carmentis was the first done to
this goddess. In this case, we must to have a model or example free
of language odds or mistakes.

> What I want to say that since custodia was in the original NR

ritual used by the flamen for years and costodia is good Latin, a
modification here is impossible and would be a sacrilege.<

If it would be a sacrilege, a prodigy or a bad sign of Carmenta would
appear.

> This is exactly an example to ritual language. This is how you have

to ask from a god in a Roman ritual.<

Yes, I found this formula in the book of Cato.

> No, in this case you are wrong, because this type of "ut" doesn't

need the conjunctive (or subjunctive as you call it). This "ut"
means "since", "as", for example when you say "ut jam ipse
dixi...", "as I have already said..."<

I was not wrong. I wrote "in the case" you use uti with subjonctive
you have to write "precata sim". Actually, in the case where uti
means "as", then the subjonctive is not allowed. I only questionned.

But as you can see, in the correction proposed, after reading the
piacula from the book de Agri cultura by Cato, I did not write uti +
subjunctive, because in this case it was clear that "uti" means "as".

Cura, mi Lentule, ut valeas.

C. Petronius Dexter

Cn. Lentulus Tulliae sal. Thank you Senatrix Tullia Scolastica for your comments about these lines: "Mater Carmentis, uti te popano commovendo  bonas preces bene precata sum, eiusdem rei ergo macte lacte esto." >>> If it’s like most of the prayers, <<< It is. And must be. >>> it means something like I have prayed good prayers [to you] by offering cakes [to you].>>> Yes, exactly. And there is no other way to say this in a Roman prayer. >>> They seem to like the cognate accusative. <<< Yes, it's a very characteristic to Roman ritual language, as well as repetitions and alliterations. >>> Commovére also means waken, rouse to action, stimulate, interest, prompt, impress, excite, influence as well as move vigorously, agitate, rout, etc. <<< In polytheist ritual Latin "commovere" and "obmovere" stand simply for "to give" or "to offer". >>> Perhaps the gerundive does go with te, in the feminine, after all, but then one would need a verb of offering with the popana, probably a gerundive, possibly in the ablative absolute or ablative of means. Ut té commovendá popanís [missing gerundive, maybe obmovendis], but this, too, is problematic.<<< Perhaps you were right in normal Latin, but it's ritual Latin. The grammatical structure of this sentence is the following: Mater Carmentis, - invocation uti te (...) precata sum - "as I have prayed you (I have asked you)", "te" is object of "precari" ...bonas preces... [te precata sum] - second accusative of target, with the "te" it constitutes a double accusative construction to the verb "precari" ...popano commovendo... - "by offering popanum" adverbial complement eiusdem rei ergo... - ritual Latin formula: it means simply "thus", or more exactly "for the very same reason" ...macte lacte esto - "be consecrated and pleased with milk". Again, a fixed ritual formula. >>> It also seems that something like sis volens propitia is missing. <<< No. Not necessarily. The formula "macte esto + ablative" is enough in itself. But, you are right, one CAN add "volens propitia" but here without "sis", because we have already a verb here ("esto"). Vale! Lentulus

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Lentulus Petronio suo sal. >>> If I am not wrong, this piaculum to Carmentis was the first done to this goddess.<<< No, this is ritual is done in every year, and this ritual has a history in NR. This version you have seen now is already a corrected version of the original and there could be only those corrections that are VERY necessary. (Evander and popanum remained intentionally uncorrected). Fac valeas!Â

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Salvete.

I hope you'll excuse me posting my thoughts here. This is probably
not the wisest of first posts. I am new to this group, and have not
involved myself in Nova Roma as a whole in any substantial way beyond
reading through your website. I'm not a citizen; I don't pay taxes;
and it may be that I'm stepping out of line by commenting on an
internal matter such as the resignation of one of your citizens.
There would have been no reason for Romans of old to pay any heed to
the words of a non-citizen, and there is no reason for modern Romans
to see things any differently.

But if it can be that a newcomer's outside perspective can be of any
service, here is mine.

I am a pagan, a polytheist, and I have been so for many years. Aware
that it might offend those who have dedicated themselves to a full,
precise reconstruction of ancient Roman religion, I have felt an
affinity for the Roman gods, and this is partially why the Nova Roma
community is of interest to me. Still, I was, as is the case with
many modern pagans, raised in the Christian faith. Unlike many,
though, I didn't fall out with Christianity. I left it on fairly good
terms, recognising that I simply did not connect with the faith of my
family; and I have absolutely no issues with their brand of
Christianity at all. I do, I freely admit, have issues with
evangelistic, fundamentalist Christianity - the sort that denies
science out of fear and seeks to bind all of humanity within the pages
of the Bible. But to me, this is not 'true' Christianity: it is
Christianity warped by the fearfulness of its adherents.

The Roman attitude to religion has always appealed to me: their
tolerance of other faiths and other gods was something that the modern
world could learn from, if it really wanted to. But history shows us
that there *must* be friction in an all-encompassing polytheistic
society if a component group is of a strongly monotheistic point of
view. That group can be accepted in principle by the society, but it
cannot itself truly accept the principles of the society. It might
function within the society, and to the extent it's able to do so
that's great. Barring actual dedicated religious groups, no-one
should feel excluded from anything because of their religious beliefs.
But individuals may reach a stage - as seems to be the case with your
former citizen here - that they feel obliged to remove themselves.
That's unfortunate.

Did you feel offended by the words of Lucius Aurelius / Mr Fraser when
he described the Religio Romana as 'false'? Clearly some did, and
quite understandably. But perhaps he has some reason, justified or
not, to feel angry at the moment - I won't speculate as I'm not
familiar with the situation. Some have reacted with some anger, in
response to the affront against their faith and their gods. I can't
and won't say "don't be offended", and 'turn the other cheek' has
Christian overtones that would no doubt offend some.

Even so, I think it would be a moral community that would ignore the
offence and say, "we're sorry to see you go; keep in touch and you'll
be welcome back if you change your mind". Some here have said that,
and that encourages me. I admire a society that can let go of a
member, even under difficult circumstances, and not bear a grudge.
(My family's church, for example, knows of my beliefs, and yet still
they welcome me if I want to accompany my relatives to services. My
gods have no issue with this, of course, and I consider that the
Christian God is intelligent enough to understand my motivations and
take no offence. I doubt that He is a mindless automaton as too many
of His supporters seem to believe.)

In short, we all have our paths to walk. Only the individual can
decide what route to take. If a person means to cause us offence,
then we still get to choose whether to be offended or not. If offence
is not meant, but is simply perceived, then perhaps "least said
soonest mended".

For what it's worth at this point, I certainly mean no offence, and if
I've spoken out of turn, or at excessive length, then I apologise.

Thank you,

Moz.

M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus Quiritibus et omnibus salutem
plurimam dicit: Di vos inculumes custodiant

Hodie est ante diem IIII Nonas Novembris; haec dies fastus aterque
est: Isia inventio Osiris

AUC 325 / 428 BCE: Birth of Plato

Origin of the Libri Pontifici

"Formerly what served to reconcile Gods and men was spelt and pure
salt's glistening grain. . . . A man was wealthy if he could add
violets to crowns fashioned from meadow flowers; the knife which
eviscerates a pole-axed bull had no role in the sacred rites. Ceres
first delighted in a greedy sow's blood (Ovid Fasti 1.337-49)."

This perspective of early Roman rites was drawn from the Ius
Papirianum, a work of the first century BCE written by Granius
Flaccus. Granius was said to have written his commentary on the
pontifical laws put forth by the pontifex maximus C. Papirius of the
third century BCE. Oral tradition held that when the Tarquinii were
expelled from Rome the religious laws of Numa were reinstated for the
sacra publica of the new Republic. Then, too, following the Gallic
sack of Rome in 390 BCE, so much had been lost that a search was made
of all the laws of the Regal Period, the later Twelve Tablets and so
forth. "To some of these even the common people were given access,
but those which applied to sacred rites the pontifices suppressed,
largely so that they could keep the minds of the populace under
control through religious awe (Livy 6.1)." Committed to memory
alone, the religious law of Rome was subject to abuse. Some of the
pontifical secrets were revealed when Gaius Flavius, the son of a
freedman elected as Aedilis Curulis for 304 BCE, "published the
formulae of civil law which had been hidden away amongst the secret
archives of the pontifices and posted the official calendar on white
notice boards around the Forum, for the dates to be generally known
when legal actions could be brouth forth; he dedicated a Temple of
Concordia in the precinct of Volcanus, greatly to the annoyance of
the nobility and the pontifex maximus Cornelius Barbatus was
compelled by the united wishes of the people to dictate the formula
of dedication to him, although he insisted that by ancestral custom
no one but a consul or a general could dedicate a temple. As a result
of this, acting on the advice of the Senate, the people passed a
measure that no one should dedicate a temple or an altar without
authorization of the Senate or a majority of the people's Tribunes
(Livy 9.46)."

As in the fifth century, when the public demanded that civil laws be
written so as to avoid arbitrary changes and abuse, which led to the
compilation of the Twelve Tablets, there seems to have been a
struggle at this time over who would control religious law. Papirius
collected the memorabilia, or oral traditions in the form of
pontifical responsa, and had them written to form part of the libri
pontifici. Another work by Granius, or perhaps part of the same
book, was the De Indigitamentis. Drawing on the same sources, this
book contained the formulae of evocation for all the Gods worshiped
in the Senate approved culti Deorum. Other Roman authors of the
second and first centuries likewise wrote commentaries on the libri
pontifici, of which only the barest fragments remain in the works of
still later authors like Macrobius and Gellius, and among various
Christian authors. We know that the Libri Pontifici dealt with the
religious calendar on when rites were to be performed, what were
appropriate sacrifices to offer to specific deities, and the prayers
that had been used in the past for certain rites. Unfortunately, we
do not have any parts of the Libri Pontifici, nor even the De
Indigitamentis that Granius drew from them. We are left then to only
infer their content by what can be found in later sources. Here are
some examples.

"Romulus poured libations of milk, not wine; proof of this lies in
rites established by him that preserve this custom today. The
Postumian law of King Numa says, `Do not sprinkle wine on a funeral
pyre.' Nor can anyone doubt that his reason for sanctioning this law
was the scarcity of wine. By the same law he prohibited offering the
Gods libations of wine from an unpruned vine. ~ C. Plinius Secundus,
Historia Naturalis 14.88

It is forbidden to pollute laurel and the olive in unholy uses, so
that they must not be employed even for making a fire at altars and
shrines when divinities are to be propitiated (for blood rites)." ~
C. Plinius Secundus, Historia Naturalis 15.135).

"In the three hundred and sixty-third year after the founding of the
City (390 BCE) a debate was opened . . . on the question of why the
state had been afflicted with so many disasters in recent years, and,
upon the suggestion of the senate, the seer Lucius Aquinius was
ordered to appear before the senate to explain the divine reasons for
this, and he said that Quintus Sulpicius, the tribune of the soldiers
with consular power, when he was about to fight the Gauls had made a
sacrifice with reference to battle on the day after the ides of
April, the same thing had happened at Cremera and many other places,
and the battle had always come out badly after a sacrifice was made
on the day after the ides. The senate then ordered that the day after
all the Kalends, the Nones and the Ides should be considered dark
days, so that on these days there would be neither battle nor
sacrifices nor elections. Moreover, Fabius Maximus Servilianus the
pontifex [c. 140 BCE] claimed in his 12th book that it was not
fitting to offer sacrifice to the spirits of the dead on black days
either, because it was necessary to call upon Janus and Jove, whom it
was not right to call upon on dark days." ~ Macrobius,
Saturnalia1.16.22-25


Our thought for today celebrates Plato's birthday with a favorite
quote of Gellius' (N. A. 17.20) drawn from Plato's "Symposium" (180e).

"Every action is of this nature: in and of itself, when done, it is
neither good nor bad; for example, what we are doing now, drinking,
or singing, or arguing. Not one of these things is in itself good,
but it may becomes so by the way in which it is done. Well and
rightly done, it becomes a good action; wrongly done it becomes
shameful. It is the same with love; for not all love is honorable or
worthy of praise, but only that which leads us to love worthily."

I addressed my comments to every person here who might think my religion
is false, and to hope for them to leave on their own accord.


- Annia Minucia Marcella
Legata Pro Praetore Nova Britannia
http://novabritannia.org
http://myspace.com/novabritannia
http://ciarin.com/governor



Gnaeus Iulius Caesar wrote:

>
> Cn. Iulius Caesar Cn. Caelio Ahenobarbo sal.
>
> Out of mild interest, who are we meant to be defending the Religio
> from?
>
> Mr. Fraser, as we were all informed sometime ago, has left this list.
> It surely can't be him all that all these posts are aimed at. He
> can't read them, so it would just be a pointless exercise in chest
> beating and venting to aim them at his posterior - now departed. Is
> this plethora of revulsion just some general emotional typed vomiting
> in reaction to his offensive comment, or does it actually have a
> specific target, for if it is a defense there has to be an opponent,
> an enemy, and a real one, not a presumed one. Who is it?
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Gnaeus Caelius Ahenobarbus
> <cn.caelius@...> wrote:
> >
> > Cn. Caelius Ahenobarbus D. Iunio Palladio s.p.d.
> >
> >
> > I hate to pull out the "he started it" card, but here it is.
> This is NOT a "beat up on the Christians" thread; this is a defense
> of the Religio Romana. Sure, emotions run high; it's an emotional
> issue at times. But this came out of nowhere due to Mr. Fraser's
> post. Please place the blame where it belongs: squarely upon his
> shoulders, like the cross that Jesus, "King of the Jews", dragged
> down the road.
>
>

C.Marius Basilius Q. Suetonio Paulino S.P.D

Virg. Aen. 2, 49: "Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes".

I have been a preacher in the Christian church for 15 years, and I
know that Christian monotheism and pagan polytheism are not
compatible. It is simply a logical consequence of Bible and it was
well experimented in history.

For me it is better to sit in my pagan shadow out of NR main list,
than spending my time arguing about Christianity. This is the reason
why generally you can find me in other NR mailing list but not in
this. Now I go back to my shadow.

Vale optime,

C.Marius








--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Quintus Suetonius Paulinus
(Michael Kelly)" <mjk@...> wrote:

>
> Salvete omnes,
>
> Two points;
>
> 1) If memory serves me correctly Lucius Aurelius was never that
> comfortable with the NR Religio aspects and I vaguely recall him
> wavering back and forth on deciding whether to stay or not, asking
> his Minister if the Oath of office was ok, talking to his wife etc.
> Such people are in a position where it is only a matter of time
> before they leave so no surprises here.
>
> 2) As for a "few" prationers' comments here, I see no reason to rub
> salt into old wounds. Saying Christians ought not to hold office or
> similar responsibilities only shoots yourselves in the foot. Many
> here have devoted much of their free time and energy, payed their
> taxes, held offices well and even donating extra money to our
> treasury every year which brings me to this question. Who would
> please the gods more;these Christians mentioned who helpto support
> and uphold this organization or many so called Religio

practitioners

> who sit in the shadows with their thumbs up their posteriors doing
> nothing at all let alone contributing financially? Try and imagine
> for a moment if these Christians were not around.
>
> Valete bene,
>
> Quintus Suetonius Paulinus
>

I believe this reaction -- this extreme "sport" of Xian-bashing -- is drawn from the world outside Nova Roma.   Many of NR's citizen live in nations where they cannot openly express the Religio, nor celebrate its sacraments. Howsoever the laws of their various nations may trumpet freedom of religion, the cultures and traditions of their neighbors, coworkers, employers and extended families make them afraid for the safety of their children (1), their jobs (2) and their property.   I can see how the safety of NR can lead those who have been, or feel they are, targeted due to their religion the freedom to express themselves. I see what I would describe as "a slow, simmering rage" generated by the Xian-dominated societies which many of us live in, which finds freedom of expression here. Where the non-Xians are the majority, with a safe anonymity of our non-NR names and our places of residency are never known.   So, while this situation is not commendable, I believe it is comprehendable. And we can end it by understanding why it happens.   My two denarii, Vestinia Caprenia   (1) In some states of the United States, children have been removed from the custody of a Wiccan parent into the custody of a Christian parent, even though the Christian parent is psychologically less stable -- because the courts found Wicca to be "immoral."   (2) Although religious discrimination is not legal in the United States for employment (unless you are working for a religious organization), that doesn't stop some employers from firing an employee for having an unusual religion.   --- On Sat, 11/1/08, deciusiunius <bcatfd@...> wrote: From: deciusiunius <bcatfd@...> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: The problem some cultores have with xtians in Nova Roma To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, November 1, 2008, 8:26 PM Salve Ahenobarbe, --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, Gnaeus Caelius Ahenobarbus <cn.caelius@ ...> wrote: > > Cn. Caelius Ahenobarbus D. Iunio Palladio s.p.d. > > >I've watched the latest edition of "beat up on the Christians" for at least the 20th time with mild amusement. > > If I may quote the message that started this whole discussion, it reads in part: > > "There is no way that I, as a devout and practicing Christian, will continue to participate in a recreational group that promotes false religion." -- Alexander S. Fraser, ex-Lucius Aurelius Severus > > I hate to pull out the "he started it" card, but here it is. >This is NOT a "beat up on the Christians" thread; this is a defense >of the Religio Romana. Sure, emotions run high; it's an emotional >issue at times. But this came out of nowhere due to Mr. Fraser's >post. A Mr. Fraser who resigned and can't read any of your comments. It was a convenient excuse to engage in our favorite sport of Christian baiting, because the audience is the other Christians remaining, not Fraser. Besides, I do believe I said this thread was started by Mr. Fraser, one of the rare times a provocative Christian actually started one of these arguments. I was just putting the whole thing in its historical perspective. Vale, Palladius

Cn. Iulius Caesar A. Minuciae Marcellae sal.

A succinct reply as usual.

I can understand the rationale perfectly. A warning shot can however
either go off course and unintentionally land amongst neutral
observers causing them to discard that neutrality, or, be mistaken,
even by one's own side, as the opening salvo in a full fledged
barrage that in turn leads to the actual opening of hostilities.

Timing, accuracy, limited effect and good communication are quite
necessary to prevent one shot becoming many.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Annia Minucia Marcella <annia@...>
wrote:

>
> I addressed my comments to every person here who might think my

religion

> is false, and to hope for them to leave on their own accord.
>
>

Salvete,

Message really slow in posting today!

QSP

Salve C Mari


You have re-enforced my thoughts on this matter.
I am rewriting this as my first reply did not go through.
Some people such as myself feel we are in the same situation as
Thomas More vs Henry VIII and his Oath Of Supremacy. As we shall be
getting the smelly end of the stick with this legislation I feel I
have the right to be darn sure that any practioner pushing for it
will be required to publically profess his or her allegience to the
Gods of Rome and renounce all past affiliations and loyalty to the
God of Abraham. As you say my friend he and the Gods are totally in
opposition and neither does the God of Abraham nor the Gods of Rome
entertain hypocracy and play acting.

I come from a family that always said do not expect others to do what
you would not do yourself and I expect likewise from any Religio
practioner who wishes to put us against the wall to do likewise.


Cheers,

Quintus Suetonius Paulinus






ply a logical consequence of Bible and it was

> well experimented in history.
>
> For me it is better to sit in my pagan shadow out of NR main list,
> than spending my time arguing about Christianity. This is the

reason

> why generally you can find me in other NR mailing list but not in
> this. Now I go back to my shadow.
>
> Vale optime,
>
> C.Marius
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Quintus Suetonius Paulinus
> (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@> wrote:
> >
> > Salvete omnes,
> >
> > Two points;
> >
> > 1) If memory serves me correctly Lucius Aurelius was never that
> > comfortable with the NR Religio aspects and I vaguely recall him
> > wavering back and forth on deciding whether to stay or not,

asking

> > his Minister if the Oath of office was ok, talking to his wife

etc.

> > Such people are in a position where it is only a matter of time
> > before they leave so no surprises here.
> >
> > 2) As for a "few" prationers' comments here, I see no reason to

rub

> > salt into old wounds. Saying Christians ought not to hold office

or

> > similar responsibilities only shoots yourselves in the foot. Many
> > here have devoted much of their free time and energy, payed their
> > taxes, held offices well and even donating extra money to our
> > treasury every year which brings me to this question. Who would
> > please the gods more;these Christians mentioned who helpto

support

> > and uphold this organization or many so called Religio
> practitioners
> > who sit in the shadows with their thumbs up their posteriors

doing

> > nothing at all let alone contributing financially? Try and

imagine

> > for a moment if these Christians were not around.
> >
> > Valete bene,
> >
> > Quintus Suetonius Paulinus
> >
>