Selected messages in Nova-Roma group. Nov 10-15, 2008

Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59007 From: Charlie Collins Date: 2008-11-10
Subject: Re: Greetings and Introduction
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59008 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: Greetings and Introduction
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59009 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Today in Rome: Nov 11, 2008.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59010 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: 10 abrogationes.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59011 From: Maior Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: 10 abrogationes.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59013 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: 10 abrogationes.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59015 From: Lucius Iulius Regulus Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: Greetings and Introduction
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59016 From: Titus Iulius Sabinus Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: 10 abrogationes.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59017 From: Titus Flavius Aquila Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: AW: [Nova-Roma] Re: 10 abrogationes.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59018 From: iulius sabinus Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: Video of Ritual in Oppidum Fluminis Gilae, 9 November 2008
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59019 From: Titus Iulius Sabinus Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: 10 abrogationes.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59020 From: marcushoratius Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: a. d. III Eidus Novembris: War with Boii and Ligurians
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59021 From: Robert Levee Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: Greetings and Introduction
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59022 From: Titus Flavius Aquila Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: AW: [Nova-Roma] Re: 10 abrogationes.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59023 From: Titus Iulius Sabinus Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: 10 abrogationes.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59024 From: Annia Minucia Marcella Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: 10 abrogationes.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59025 From: Titus Flavius Aquila Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: AW: [Nova-Roma] Re: 10 abrogationes.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59026 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: 10 abrogationes.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59027 From: Titus Iulius Sabinus Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: 10 abrogationes.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59028 From: Stefn Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: OT: Getting into 20th Cent. history, a little, was Re: Greetings and
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59029 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: When no censors are in office
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59030 From: Titus Flavius Aquila Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: AW: [Nova-Roma] Re: 10 abrogationes.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59031 From: Robert Levee Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: OT: Getting into 20th Cent. history, a little, was Re: Greetings
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59032 From: Lyn Dowling Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: OT: Getting into 20th Cent. history, a little, was Re: Greetings
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59033 From: vallenporter Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: 10 abrogationes.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59034 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: One Last Appeal
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59035 From: Titus Iulius Sabinus Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: 10 abrogationes.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59036 From: Titus Iulius Sabinus Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: One Last Appeal
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59037 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: 10 abrogationes.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59038 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: When no censors are in office
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59039 From: Titus Flavius Aquila Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: AW: [Nova-Roma] Re: 10 abrogationes.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59040 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: 10 abrogationes.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59041 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: When no censors are in office (Correction)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59042 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: 10 abrogationes.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59043 From: Lucia Livia Plauta Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: 10 abrogationes.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59044 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: 10 abrogationes.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59045 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: 10 abrogationes.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59046 From: Titus Flavius Aquila Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Lex Moravia Iulia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59047 From: Lyn Dowling Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Gaius Julius Caesar Octavianus Augustus, Packaged?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59048 From: Publius Memmius Albucius Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: Lex Moravia Iulia and time for veto
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59049 From: Lyn Dowling Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Roman banquet?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59050 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: Lex Moravia Iulia and time for veto
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59051 From: Complutensis Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: Lex Moravia Iulia and time for veto
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59052 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: Lex Moravia Iulia and time for veto
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59053 From: Gnaeus Caelius Ahenobarbus Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: Roman banquet?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59054 From: Publius Memmius Albucius Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: Lex Moravia Iulia and time for veto
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59055 From: Publius Memmius Albucius Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: Lex Moravia Iulia and time for veto
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59056 From: Lyn Dowling Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: Roman banquet?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59057 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: 10 abrogationes.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59058 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: Lex Moravia Iulia and time for veto
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59059 From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Online Resources for Classics Study and Research, 11/12/2008, 12:00
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59060 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: Lex Moravia Iulia and time for veto
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59061 From: Lucia Livia Plauta Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: Gaius Julius Caesar Octavianus Augustus, Packaged?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59062 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: Lex Moravia Iulia and time for veto
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59063 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: Gaius Julius Caesar Octavianus Augustus, Packaged?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59064 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: Lex Moravia Iulia and time for veto
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59065 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: Roman banquet?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59066 From: Lyn Dowling Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: Gaius Julius Caesar Octavianus Augustus, Packaged?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59067 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: Lex Moravia Iulia and time for veto
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59068 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: Lex Moravia Iulia and time for veto
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59069 From: Chantal Gaudiano Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Roman banquet?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59070 From: Lyn Dowling Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: Gaius Julius Caesar Octavianus Augustus, Packaged?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59071 From: M•IVL•SEVERVS Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: Gaius Julius Caesar Octavianus Augustus, Packaged?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59072 From: Gnaeus Caelius Ahenobarbus Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: Roman banquet?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59073 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: Lex Moravia Iulia and time for veto
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59074 From: Titus Iulius Sabinus Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: Lex Moravia Iulia and time for veto
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59075 From: Maior Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: Roman banquet?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59076 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: Lex Moravia Iulia and time for veto
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59077 From: Publius Memmius Albucius Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: Lex Moravia Iulia and time for veto
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59078 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: Lex Moravia Iulia and time for veto
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59079 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: Lex Moravia Iulia and time for veto
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59080 From: Publius Memmius Albucius Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Auspices comitia and gods'omniscience
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59081 From: iulius sabinus Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: Lex Moravia Iulia and time for veto
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59082 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Opposing the proposed laws
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59083 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Today in Rome: Nov 12, 2008.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59084 From: MCC Date: 2008-11-12
Subject: Re: Lex Moravia Iulia and time for veto
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59085 From: MCC Date: 2008-11-12
Subject: Re: Lex Moravia Iulia and time for veto
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59086 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2008-11-12
Subject: Re: Opposing the proposed laws
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59087 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2008-11-12
Subject: Re: Roman banquet?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59088 From: marcushoratius Date: 2008-11-12
Subject: Pridie Eidus Novembris: L. Albinius and the Vestals
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59089 From: Steve Moore Date: 2008-11-12
Subject: Change to Article VI
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59090 From: Robert Levee Date: 2008-11-12
Subject: Re: Opposing the proposed laws
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59091 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2008-11-12
Subject: Re: When no censors are in office
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59092 From: Colin Cunningham Date: 2008-11-12
Subject: Personal Unofficial Census of Nova Roma
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59093 From: sixthcenturykatafractos Date: 2008-11-12
Subject: Re: Roman banquet?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59094 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2008-11-12
Subject: Proposed laws and timing issue of any intercessio
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59095 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2008-11-12
Subject: Re: Opposing the proposed laws
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59096 From: M•IVL•SEVERVS Date: 2008-11-12
Subject: CONVOCATORIA A LOS COMITIA CENTVRIATA
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59097 From: L Julia Aquila Date: 2008-11-12
Subject: Re: Roman banquet?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59098 From: L Julia Aquila Date: 2008-11-12
Subject: Re: Opposing the proposed laws
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59099 From: M•IVL•SEVERVS Date: 2008-11-12
Subject: CONVOCATORIA A LOS COMITIA POPVLI TRIBVTA
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59100 From: Patrick D. Owen Date: 2008-11-12
Subject: Fl. Galerius Aurelianus - Support of Candidates
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59101 From: M•IVL•SEVERVS Date: 2008-11-12
Subject: Re: Fl. Galerius Aurelianus - Support of Candidates
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59102 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2008-11-12
Subject: Re: Fl. Galerius Aurelianus - Support of Candidates
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59103 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2008-11-12
Subject: Re: Personal Unofficial Census of Nova Roma
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59104 From: gaiuspopilliuslaenas Date: 2008-11-12
Subject: Re: Fl. Galerius Aurelianus - Support of Candidates
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59105 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2008-11-12
Subject: Re: Greetings and Introduction
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59106 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2008-11-12
Subject: Re: Personal Unofficial Census of Nova Roma
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59107 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2008-11-12
Subject: Re: Fl. Galerius Aurelianus - Support of Candidates
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59108 From: Lucia Livia Plauta Date: 2008-11-12
Subject: Voting on the proposed laws
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59109 From: Publius Memmius Albucius Date: 2008-11-12
Subject: Re: Voting on the proposed laws
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59110 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2008-11-12
Subject: Re: Opposing the proposed laws
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59111 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2008-11-12
Subject: Today in Rome: Nov 13, 2008.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59112 From: Titus Flavius Aquila Date: 2008-11-13
Subject: AW: [Nova-Roma] Fl. Galerius Aurelianus - Support of Candidates
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59113 From: Titus Flavius Aquila Date: 2008-11-13
Subject: Titus Flavius Aquila - Support of Candidates
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59114 From: Q. Caecilius Metellus Date: 2008-11-13
Subject: de Candidatis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59115 From: Q. Caecilius Metellus Date: 2008-11-13
Subject: de Candidatis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59116 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2008-11-13
Subject: Re: Fl. Galerius Aurelianus - Support of Candidates
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59117 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2008-11-13
Subject: Re: Titus Flavius Aquila - Support of Candidates
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59118 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2008-11-13
Subject: Re: de Candidatis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59119 From: Robert Levee Date: 2008-11-13
Subject: Re: Titus Flavius Aquila - Support of Candidates
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59120 From: marcushoratius Date: 2008-11-13
Subject: EIDUS NOVEMBRIS: Epulum Iovis; Feronia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59121 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2008-11-13
Subject: Re: Titus Flavius Aquila - Support of Candidates
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59122 From: Colin Brodd Date: 2008-11-13
Subject: Re: Fl. Galerius Aurelianus - Support of Candidates
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59123 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2008-11-13
Subject: Re: Today in Rome: Nov 13, 2008.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59124 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2008-11-13
Subject: Ancient Rome (At the Constantine period) in 3D
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59125 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2008-11-13
Subject: Re: de Candidatis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59126 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2008-11-13
Subject: Re: de Candidatis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59127 From: gaiuspopilliuslaenas Date: 2008-11-13
Subject: Re: Ancient Rome (At the Constantine period) in 3D
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59128 From: Lucius Iulius Regulus Date: 2008-11-13
Subject: Re: Ancient Rome (At the Constantine period) in 3D
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59129 From: L Julia Aquila Date: 2008-11-13
Subject: Re: Today in Rome: Nov 13, 2008.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59130 From: L Julia Aquila Date: 2008-11-13
Subject: Re: Ancient Rome (At the Constantine period) in 3D
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59131 From: Publius Memmius Albucius Date: 2008-11-13
Subject: Confirmation request on the current rogationes
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59133 From: M•IVL•SEVERVS Date: 2008-11-13
Subject: Re: Titus Flavius Aquila - Support of Candidates
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59134 From: Tiberius Horatius Barbatus Date: 2008-11-13
Subject: Re: Titus Flavius Aquila - Support of Candidates
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59135 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2008-11-13
Subject: Re: Opposing the proposed laws
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59136 From: Complutensis Date: 2008-11-13
Subject: ELECCIONES
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59137 From: Titus Iulius Sabinus Date: 2008-11-13
Subject: Re: Opposing the proposed laws
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59138 From: iulius sabinus Date: 2008-11-13
Subject: Re: Titus Flavius Aquila - Support of Candidates
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59139 From: M•IVL•SEVERVS Date: 2008-11-13
Subject: ELECCIONES
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59140 From: Cn. Cornelius Lentulus Date: 2008-11-13
Subject: 10th Anniverarsy of Nova Roma - Sacred Year of Concordance - Concord
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59141 From: Titus Arminius Genialis Date: 2008-11-13
Subject: EM QUEM VOU VOTAR ESTE ANO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59142 From: Lucia Livia Plauta Date: 2008-11-13
Subject: Re: Voting on the proposed laws
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59143 From: Lucia Livia Plauta Date: 2008-11-13
Subject: T. Iulius Sabinus for Censor!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59144 From: M•IVL•SEVERVS Date: 2008-11-13
Subject: Re: EM QUEM VOU VOTAR ESTE ANO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59145 From: Publius Memmius Albucius Date: 2008-11-13
Subject: Re: Voting on the proposed laws
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59146 From: Maior Date: 2008-11-13
Subject: Re: T. Iulius Sabinus for Censor!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59147 From: D. Iunius Palladius (La Plume) Date: 2008-11-13
Subject: Candidate endorsements--and vote no on most of the laws
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59148 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2008-11-13
Subject: Re: Opposing the proposed laws
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59149 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2008-11-13
Subject: The Censuria
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59150 From: Tiberius Horatius Barbatus Date: 2008-11-13
Subject: Re: Candidate endorsements--and vote no on most of the laws
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59151 From: Tiberius Horatius Barbatus Date: 2008-11-13
Subject: Looking for Issue 1 "Declaratio"
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59152 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2008-11-13
Subject: Re: The Censuria
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59153 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2008-11-13
Subject: Today in Rome, Nov 14 2008.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59154 From: Kristoffer From Date: 2008-11-14
Subject: Re: The Censuria
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59155 From: marcushoratius Date: 2008-11-14
Subject: a. d. XVIII Kalendas Decembris: Hortensia; Probatio Equorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59156 From: iulius sabinus Date: 2008-11-14
Subject: Re: a. d. XVIII Kalendas Decembris: Hortensia; Probatio Equorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59157 From: Titus Iulius Sabinus Date: 2008-11-14
Subject: Re: T. Iulius Sabinus for Censor!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59158 From: Titus Iulius Sabinus Date: 2008-11-14
Subject: Re: T. Iulius Sabinus for Censor!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59159 From: Lucia Livia Plauta Date: 2008-11-14
Subject: Re: Voting on the proposed laws
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59160 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2008-11-14
Subject: Opposing the following proposed laws
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59161 From: Titus Flavius Aquila Date: 2008-11-14
Subject: Lex Moravia Iulia Rogationes III - IX
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59162 From: Titus Flavius Aquila Date: 2008-11-14
Subject: Lex Moravia Iulia Rogationes III - IX
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59163 From: Titus Iulius Sabinus Date: 2008-11-14
Subject: At the contio's end.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59164 From: Lucia Livia Plauta Date: 2008-11-14
Subject: Re: Lex Moravia Iulia Rogationes III - IX
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59165 From: Robert Levee Date: 2008-11-14
Subject: Re: Lex Moravia Iulia Rogationes III - IX
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59166 From: Titus Iulius Sabinus Date: 2008-11-14
Subject: My endorsements.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59167 From: Publius Memmius Albucius Date: 2008-11-14
Subject: Amended or not rogationes
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59168 From: M•IVL•SEVERVS Date: 2008-11-14
Subject: Re: T. Iulius Sabinus for Censor!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59169 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2008-11-14
Subject: Endorsements
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59170 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2008-11-14
Subject: Today in Rome: Nov 15, 2008.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59171 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2008-11-15
Subject: The endorsements and votes of C. Petronius Dexter.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59172 From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com Date: 2008-11-15
Subject: To all in the Far East, 11/15/2008, 12:00 pm
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59173 From: marcushoratius Date: 2008-11-15
Subject: Centuria Praerogativa et Tribus Praesidium
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59174 From: marcushoratius Date: 2008-11-15
Subject: Recommendations in the Elections
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59175 From: marcushoratius Date: 2008-11-15
Subject: On the Leges Moraviae Iuliae
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59176 From: Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kelly Date: 2008-11-15
Subject: Nazis And Paganism
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59177 From: marcushoratius Date: 2008-11-15
Subject: Centuria VI Praerogativa is Called to Vote
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59178 From: Annia Minucia Marcella Date: 2008-11-15
Subject: Re: Nazis And Paganism
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59179 From: marcushoratius Date: 2008-11-15
Subject: The Comitia Populi Tributa is Called to Vote
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59180 From: Lucia Livia Plauta Date: 2008-11-15
Subject: Re: The endorsements and votes of C. Petronius Dexter.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59181 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2008-11-15
Subject: Re: The endorsements and votes of C. Petronius Dexter.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59182 From: Colin Cunningham Date: 2008-11-15
Subject: Re: Opposing the following proposed laws
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59183 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2008-11-15
Subject: Re: Recommendations in the Elections
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59184 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2008-11-15
Subject: Re: On the Leges Moraviae Iuliae
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59185 From: Robert Levee Date: 2008-11-15
Subject: Re: Nazis And Paganism



Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59007 From: Charlie Collins Date: 2008-11-10
Subject: Re: Greetings and Introduction
Salve,
 
At least he doesn't have the e-mail domain "killer.kkk.sg". That is the domain(based in Singapore) used by a member in a forum I am on. When he offered e-mail accounts on the forum(EmailDiscussions.com) there was a big uproar from US members of the forum. The owner didn't realize the connotations of "kkk" here in the US. He never changed the domain. His email service is still available.
 
Vale,
Quintus Servilius Priscus
Curator SVR

On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 20:47, Annia Minucia Marcella <annia@...> wrote:
Salve,

I found no offense in his email name at all. I didn't even notice his email address till it was pointed out. I think people nitpick too much.
Vale
- Annia Minucia Marcella
Legata Pro Praetore Nova Britannia
http://novabritannia.org
http://myspace.com/novabritannia
http://ciarin.com/governor


A. Sergius Cincinnatus wrote:

Salvete,

It is completely innocent, I assure you, and no way connected to
national socialism. I am not a fascist. At the time I made this
email address, I was big into the Japanese Anime Fullmetal Alchemist.
One of my favorite characters in it (Mustang) aspired to become the
leader of the state (which was named, in the anime, Fuhrer). So this
email is the product of that obsession at the time. If anyone indeed
is offended by it, I would be more than happy to use a different email.

Optime valete.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robert Levee <galerius_of_rome@...>
wrote:
>
> Salve,A.Sergius Cincinnatus S.P.D.
>
> I welcome you to the Republic of Nova Roma.
> The Latin name you have chosen is fine as far as I am concerned.
> It is the choice of the word (FUHRER), in your g-mai; name that
gives me pause.I know we do not allow fascists in Nova Roma, and I
certainly hope this in no way is associated with national socialism.I
hope I am wrong and often times am, but could you please explain the
meaning of this name to me?It may be fairly innocent but the word
conotates for some many unhappy days in our families past.
> Optime vale,
> Ap.Galerius Aurelianus
>
>
> --- On Mon, 11/10/08, A. Sergius Cincinnatus <fuhrer.mustang@...> wrote:
>
> > From: A. Sergius Cincinnatus <fuhrer.mustang@...>
> > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Greetings and Introduction
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 3:09 PM
> > A. Sergius Cincinnatus Omnibus Petronioque S.P.D.
> >
> > Salvete!
> >
> > First I would like to thank everyone here for the warm
> > welcome they
> > have given me. Nothing excites me more than the chance to
> > do what
> > good I can in the Res publica.
> >
> > Secondly, I apologize to you, C. Petronius Dexter, if you
> > feel as
> > though I have slighted the honor of gens Sergia by being a
> > plebeian.
> > I will not go into detail as to why I chose the name
> > Sergius
> > Cincinnatus, but I will say that when I chose gens Sergia,
> > I made sure
> > to check the Album Civium to see if I would be the only
> > plebeian. In
> > fact I am not the only plebeian, and having consulted the
> > Album Civium
> > again, there are no patricians registered from gens Sergia.
> >
> > Optime valete.
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Petronius
> > Dexter"
> > <jfarnoud94@> wrote:
> > >
> > > C. Petronius M. Hortensiae s.p.d.,
> > >
> >
> > > > welcome and it is excellent to see such an
> > ancient Roman gens as
> > > > Sergia revived by citizens.
> > >
> > > A. Sergius Cincinnatus is not a Sergius revival of the
> > gens Sergia. He
> > > is not rekindling the Manes of the Sergii. The Roman
> > Sergii, from
> > > Sergestus comrade-in-arms to Aeneas, were Patricians.
> > >
> > > Our friend A. Sergius Cincinnatus, in despite is
> > famous Sergius name
> > > and his most famous Cincinnatus cognomen is not
> > registered by our
> > > censors into the Patrician order!
> > >
> > > Note: I wonder if the Manes of the Sergii are happy at
> > this bad
> > > treatment done by our censors. ;o)
> > >
> > > Vale.
> > >
> > > C. Petronius Dexter
> > >
>


Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59008 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: Greetings and Introduction
Salve Dexter,

As a censorius who spent years investigating the gentes of Roma
Antiqua in order to make Nova Roma's gens structure more historical, I
would very much appreciate it if you would do some homework to figure
out why things are the way they are in Nova Roma before you decide to
admonish the current censors for what you perceive to be their error.
Of all the things that have afflicted Nova Roma and interfered with
the growth of our Republic, few have been more damaging than
self-appointed experts who plunge in and throw their opinions around
without regard for the ten years of history behind our Republic.

There is ample information available to suggest that all of the
original patrician gentes had plebeian branches by the time of the
principate. Thus there is nothing wrong with having plebeians in gens
Sergia. Furthermore, Nova Roma's patrician familia are the 30
original familia, and do not have anything to do with the historical
patrician gentes.

I would have sent this to you as a private note, but since you've seen
fit to make this a public issue, I think your charges need to be
answered in public.

Vale,

CN-EQVIT-MARINVS


Gaius Petronius Dexter <jfarnoud94@...> writes:

> C. Petronius A. Sergio s.p.d.,
>
>> Secondly, I apologize to you, C. Petronius Dexter, if you feel as
>> though I have slighted the honor of gens Sergia by being a
> plebeian.
>
> I know my English bad. I did not feel you have slighted the Manes of
> the Sergii, but the censors. In my opinion, now you have the duty to
> beg reparation for the Manes of the gens Sergia.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59009 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Today in Rome: Nov 11, 2008.
C. Petronius Dexter omnibus Quiritibus s.p.d.,
 
Today in Rome :
 
(Julian day : 2 454 782).
 
A.d. III Idus Novembres
MMDCCLXI anno Vrbis conditae.
Coss. M. Moravio T. Iulio.
 
Day of the week : Martis dies (Monday).
 
Lunaris dies: XV.
Nundinal letter : C.
 
Hora ortus Solis : 06:54.
Hora occasus Solis : 16:53.
Temp. Min. : 5° C.
Temp. Max. : 18° C.
Wind on Rome : 5 Km/h.
Humidity:  52%.
Weather: More sun than clouds. Mild.
 
Horae diei :
 
I: 06:54 - 07:45 Veneris hora.
II: 07:45 - 08:36 Mercurii hora.
III: 08:36 - 09:27 Lunae hora.
IV: 09:27 - 10:18 Saturni hora.
V: 10:18 - 11:09 Iovis hora.
VI: 11:09 - 12:00 Martis hora.
VII: 12:00 - 12:49 Solis hora.
VIII: 12:49 - 13:38 Veneris hora.
IX: 13:38 - 14:27 Mercurii hora.
X: 14:27 - 15:16 Lunae hora.
XI: 15:16 - 16:05 Saturni hora.
XII: 16:05 - 16:53 Iovis hora.
 
Horae noctis :
 
I: 16:53 - 18:04 Martis hora.
II: 18:04 - 19:15 Solis hora.
III: 19:15 - 20:26 Veneris hora.
IV: 20:26 - 21:37 Mercurii hora.
V: 21:37 - 22:48 Lunae hora.
VI: 22:48 - 00:00 Saturni hora.
VII: 00:00 - 01:08 Iovis hora.
VIII: 01:08 - 02:17 Martis hora.
IX: 02:17 - 03:26 Solis hora.
X: 03:26 - 04:34 Veneris hora.
XI: 04:34 - 05:43 Mercurii hora.
XII: 05:43 - 06:52 Lunae hora.
 

"Suam quisque culpam auctores ad negotia transferunt."
(Sallust, BI,I.)
 
Valete.
 
C. Petronius Dexter.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59010 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: 10 abrogationes.
C. Petronius omnibus Quiritibus s.p.d.,
 
Perhaps it exists a sodalitas that I do not know where these abrogationes are discussed. Because it seems to me that we will vote 10 Moraviae-Juliae rogationes. But nor M. Moravius neither T. Julius are coming before us to expose these rogationes. Why they propose these rogationes? Am I so stupid that I wish a debat about all these rogationes?
 
For example in the rogatio Moravia Iulia de institutis publicis religiosis
 
I read:

"A. The Religio Romana, defined as the traditional worship of the Gods and Goddesses of Rome, shall be the official religion of Nova Roma."

With which consequences? A law is not only a text it is also a "sanctio".

If the Religio Romana shall be the official religion of Nova Roma, can I notice than many things will be then moved or changed? For example, as I said with the Patrician gentes.

If we worship the gods and goddesses of Rome, we must honour the patrician families of Rome and we will have the duty to recreate them. For example, the patrician family Julia worship more specially "pro populo Romano" the worships to Venus and Apollo, the gens Nautia had the duty to honour Minerva with the Palladium whose a copy was in the aedes of Vesta, the patrician gens Claudia worshipped more specially and "pro populo Romano" the goddess Bellona, this gens also worshipped the god Saturnus which was prayed "aperto capite", head naked. This gens also proposed "pro populo Romano" the rirual of the "porcus propudialis", in order to repear the negligences towards the rituals. Etc.

By the way, when I discovered than the gens Petronia, my gens, a plebeian gens probably Sabin, honoured more specially the god Liber Pater and the great Sabin goddess Feronia, I wrote that in the French page I have dedicated to the gens Petronia:

http://www.novaroma.org/nr/FR:Gens_Petronia

In my opinion, the Roman patrician families are to be recreated, if the traditional Religio Romana becomes the official religion of Nova Roma. 

Valete.

C. Petronius Dexter

 

 

 

Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59011 From: Maior Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: 10 abrogationes.
M. Hortensia C. Petronio spd;
this is something I have been interested in for years; making sure
the gentes revive their specific cults.
Weren't the Juli charged with Vediovis?
So fascinating, I've looked but found nothing for my gens Hortenia,
so frustrating.
Here is a nice article i wrote on Liber Pater
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Liber
Liber and Feronia, interesting, the Servili I recollect had a very
strange cultus..
valeas
Maior

>> By the way, when I discovered than the gens Petronia, my gens, a
plebeian gens probably Sabin, honoured more specially the god Liber
Pater and the great Sabin goddess Feronia, I wrote that in the French
page I have dedicated to the gens Petronia:
>
> http://www.novaroma.org/nr/FR:Gens_Petronia
>
> In my opinion, the Roman patrician families are to be recreated, if
the traditional Religio Romana becomes the official religion of Nova
Roma.
>
> Valete.
>
> C. Petronius Dexter
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59013 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: 10 abrogationes.
Dexter Agricolae s.p.d.,

> We have patrician and plebeian Lucretii, just as it was long ago:
> http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Lucretius

Super! And the NRgens Lucretia is particularly patrician, among five
individuals four are patricians.;o)

Anyway, when I see the NRWiki page consacrated to the gens Lucretia, it
is a beautiful work!

Optime vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59015 From: Lucius Iulius Regulus Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: Greetings and Introduction
Salve,
 
I see no offense to his email address as well with all due respect to those whose families suffered under Hitler. As long as he is not here promoting the Nazi regime or apart of some covert Nazi party than he is more than welcome to keep his email address. It is a word for leader and if he sees himself as a leader than all the more respect to him, many people characterize themselves as leaders. Maybe he will be a great leader here among us, no need to conclude that his intentions here are of a radical nature.
 
Lucius Iulius Regulus


From: Annia Minucia Marcella <annia@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 9:47:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Greetings and Introduction

Salve,

I found no offense in his email name at all. I didn't even notice his email address till it was pointed out. I think people nitpick too much.

Vale
- Annia Minucia Marcella
Legata Pro Praetore Nova Britannia
http://novabritanni a.org
http://myspace. com/novabritanni a
http://ciarin. com/governor


A. Sergius Cincinnatus wrote:

Salvete,

It is completely innocent, I assure you, and no way connected to
national socialism. I am not a fascist. At the time I made this
email address, I was big into the Japanese Anime Fullmetal Alchemist.
One of my favorite characters in it (Mustang) aspired to become the
leader of the state (which was named, in the anime, Fuhrer). So this
email is the product of that obsession at the time. If anyone indeed
is offended by it, I would be more than happy to use a different email.

Optime valete.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, Robert Levee <galerius_of_ rome@...>
wrote:
>
> Salve,A.Sergius Cincinnatus S.P.D.
>
> I welcome you to the Republic of Nova Roma.
> The Latin name you have chosen is fine as far as I am concerned.
> It is the choice of the word (FUHRER), in your g-mai; name that
gives me pause.I know we do not allow fascists in Nova Roma, and I
certainly hope this in no way is associated with national socialism.I
hope I am wrong and often times am, but could you please explain the
meaning of this name to me?It may be fairly innocent but the word
conotates for some many unhappy days in our families past.
> Optime vale,
> Ap.Galerius Aurelianus
>
>
> --- On Mon, 11/10/08, A. Sergius Cincinnatus <fuhrer.mustang@ ...> wrote:
>
> > From: A. Sergius Cincinnatus <fuhrer.mustang@ ...>
> > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Greetings and Introduction
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
> > Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 3:09 PM
> > A. Sergius Cincinnatus Omnibus Petronioque S.P.D.
> >
> > Salvete!
> >
> > First I would like to thank everyone here for the warm
> > welcome they
> > have given me. Nothing excites me more than the chance to
> > do what
> > good I can in the Res publica.
> >
> > Secondly, I apologize to you, C. Petronius Dexter, if you
> > feel as
> > though I have slighted the honor of gens Sergia by being a
> > plebeian.
> > I will not go into detail as to why I chose the name
> > Sergius
> > Cincinnatus, but I will say that when I chose gens Sergia,
> > I made sure
> > to check the Album Civium to see if I would be the only
> > plebeian. In
> > fact I am not the only plebeian, and having consulted the
> > Album Civium
> > again, there are no patricians registered from gens Sergia.
> >
> > Optime valete.
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, "Gaius Petronius
> > Dexter"
> > <jfarnoud94@ > wrote:
> > >
> > > C. Petronius M. Hortensiae s.p.d.,
> > >
> >
> > > > welcome and it is excellent to see such an
> > ancient Roman gens as
> > > > Sergia revived by citizens.
> > >
> > > A. Sergius Cincinnatus is not a Sergius revival of the
> > gens Sergia. He
> > > is not rekindling the Manes of the Sergii. The Roman
> > Sergii, from
> > > Sergestus comrade-in-arms to Aeneas, were Patricians.
> > >
> > > Our friend A. Sergius Cincinnatus, in despite is
> > famous Sergius name
> > > and his most famous Cincinnatus cognomen is not
> > registered by our
> > > censors into the Patrician order!
> > >
> > > Note: I wonder if the Manes of the Sergii are happy at
> > this bad
> > > treatment done by our censors. ;o)
> > >
> > > Vale.
> > >
> > > C. Petronius Dexter
> > >
>


Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59016 From: Titus Iulius Sabinus Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: 10 abrogationes.
SALVE ET SALVETE!

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Petronius Dexter"
<jfarnoud94@...> wrote:

> Perhaps it exists a sodalitas that I do not know where these
abrogationes are discussed.>>>

These rogationes are the result of many discussions and practical
experience in NR offices. Consuls have their vision, they have
accensii and, for example, the rogatio you mentioned represent the
result of discussions during this year, in this order: Cohors
Consularis, Collegium Pontificum and NR Senate. The entire rogatio
was presented on the Collegium Pontificum list at 6 November. As time
you are member of Collegium Pontificum list starting with 15 October
I'm sure you paid attention to it at that time.


But nor M. Moravius neither T. Julius are coming before us to expose
these rogationes.>>>

Consuls pay maximum attention to what is happen during the contio.
You can see how the rogatio Moravia Iulia de tribunis plebis was
changed as a result of this list debates:
http://tinyurl.com/54uxtf
Not all debates have as result changes at the proposed legislation.
That is normal because here are many variable to take in
consideration, consuls has their right to propose legislation how in
the same way our citizens has the right to present their opinions
during the contio and, at last, to vote in favor or against the
proposed law.
Then, it's important to point out that near consuls other citizens
come with explanations when necessary, in the way Equitius Marinus
done with rogatio Moravia Iulia de censoribus.

Why they propose these rogationes?>>>

Because they learn from the past mistakes and they want to fix some
things in better way.

Am I so stupid that I wish a debat about all these rogationes?>>>

No. Exactly this is the contio reason.

> For example in the rogatio Moravia Iulia de institutis publicis
religiosis I read:
> "A. The Religio Romana, defined as the traditional worship of the
Gods and Goddesses of Rome, shall be the official religion of Nova
Roma."
With which consequences? A law is not only a text it is also
a "sanctio". If the Religio Romana shall be the official religion of
Nova Roma, can I notice than many things will be then moved or
changed? For example, as I said with the Patrician gentes.>>>

We carry on the same text for many years where "Religio Romana shall
be the official religion of Nova Roma". In front of "worship of the
Gods and Goddesses of Rome" was added the word "traditional". That it
means we must pay more attention to research and accuracy in that
area.
When it comes about what you mentioned about gentes, you done well in
your gens case. I really appreciate that because you moved on not
waiting as someone else to offer you all the answers. In my opinion
this is exactly what NR needs: initiative. All what NR has,
magistrates, sodalitas, lists and so on, are at its citizens
disposal. If citizens have initiative sure they will find answers.

VALE ET VALETE,
IVL SABINVS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59017 From: Titus Flavius Aquila Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: AW: [Nova-Roma] Re: 10 abrogationes.
Salve Consul Sabinus,
 
we have currently the fixed value of 5 valuable Tribunes and should give it up for an undefined number of Tribunes, determined by a certain law in the future to be where nobody knows how this law would look like ?
 
I can not accept this.
 
If this will not be changed in the lex amendment proposal, in order to state that the Plebeians will keep their 5 Tribunes, I will need to veto , I am ready to do so.
 
 
Optime vale
Titus Flavius Aquila
Tribunus Plebis Nova Roma

  
In the order of authority among the ordinarii magistrates, the Tribuni Plebis shall be placed in fourth position, behind the Praetors.

2. Therefore, the Constitution, Article IV, Section A, Paragraph 7, is reassigned as Article IV, Part A, Section 4 with the other sections in Part A following in numerical order.

3. By this Lex Moravia Iulia de Tribunis Plebis is amended the Constitution, Article IV, Part A, Section 7, where it begins:

"Tribuni Plebis (Tribune of the Plebs). Five tribunes of the plebs shall be elected by the comitia plebis tributa to serve a term lasting one year."

Hereby shall IV.A.7 be amended to IV.A.4 as follows:

Tribuni Plebis (Tribunes of the Plebeians): A number of Tribunes, determined by law, shall be elected by the Comitia Plebis Tributa to serve a term lasting one year.
4. The Lex Moravia Iulia de tribunis plebis shall become effective as of the Kalends of January AUC 2762 and thus shall apply to those individuals who are elected as Tribuni Plebis to begin their terms in December AUC 2762.



Von: Titus Iulius Sabinus <iulius_sabinus@...>
An: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Gesendet: Dienstag, den 11. November 2008, 12:55:29 Uhr
Betreff: [Nova-Roma] Re: 10 abrogationes.

SALVE ET SALVETE!

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, "Gaius Petronius Dexter"
<jfarnoud94@ ...> wrote:

> Perhaps it exists a sodalitas that I do not know where these
abrogationes are discussed.>> >

These rogationes are the result of many discussions and practical
experience in NR offices. Consuls have their vision, they have
accensii and, for example, the rogatio you mentioned represent the
result of discussions during this year, in this order: Cohors
Consularis, Collegium Pontificum and NR Senate. The entire rogatio
was presented on the Collegium Pontificum list at 6 November. As time
you are member of Collegium Pontificum list starting with 15 October
I'm sure you paid attention to it at that time.

But nor M. Moravius neither T. Julius are coming before us to expose
these rogationes.> >>

Consuls pay maximum attention to what is happen during the contio.
You can see how the rogatio Moravia Iulia de tribunis plebis was
changed as a result of this list debates:
http://tinyurl. com/54uxtf
Not all debates have as result changes at the proposed legislation.
That is normal because here are many variable to take in
consideration, consuls has their right to propose legislation how in
the same way our citizens has the right to present their opinions
during the contio and, at last, to vote in favor or against the
proposed law.
Then, it's important to point out that near consuls other citizens
come with explanations when necessary, in the way Equitius Marinus
done with rogatio Moravia Iulia de censoribus.

Why they propose these rogationes?> >>

Because they learn from the past mistakes and they want to fix some
things in better way.

Am I so stupid that I wish a debat about all these rogationes?> >>

No. Exactly this is the contio reason.

> For example in the rogatio Moravia Iulia de institutis publicis
religiosis I read:
> "A. The Religio Romana, defined as the traditional worship of the
Gods and Goddesses of Rome, shall be the official religion of Nova
Roma."
With which consequences? A law is not only a text it is also
a "sanctio". If the Religio Romana shall be the official religion of
Nova Roma, can I notice than many things will be then moved or
changed? For example, as I said with the Patrician gentes.>>>

We carry on the same text for many years where "Religio Romana shall
be the official religion of Nova Roma". In front of "worship of the
Gods and Goddesses of Rome" was added the word "traditional" . That it
means we must pay more attention to research and accuracy in that
area.
When it comes about what you mentioned about gentes, you done well in
your gens case. I really appreciate that because you moved on not
waiting as someone else to offer you all the answers. In my opinion
this is exactly what NR needs: initiative. All what NR has,
magistrates, sodalitas, lists and so on, are at its citizens
disposal. If citizens have initiative sure they will find answers.

VALE ET VALETE,
IVL SABINVS


Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59018 From: iulius sabinus Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: Video of Ritual in Oppidum Fluminis Gilae, 9 November 2008
SALVE AHENOBARBE!
 
Thank you for posting it. I want to say that your oppidum members done great job this year. I'm glad to see there my Iulian co-fellow C. Iulius an old and respectable NR citizen and M. Valerius a new and full of energy one. I’m sure there is a great team.
 
VALE,
IVL SABINVS

"Every individual is the architect of his own fortune" - Appius Claudius


--- On Mon, 11/10/08, Gnaeus Caelius Ahenobarbus <cn.caelius@...> wrote:
From: Gnaeus Caelius Ahenobarbus <cn.caelius@...>
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Video of Ritual in Oppidum Fluminis Gilae, 9 November 2008
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 9:42 PM

Cn. Caelius Ahenobarbus omnibus salutem plurimam dicit

I made a short video of a portion of a ritual which we performed
yesterday and uploaded it to YouTube. You can find it at:

http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=1nlSHLe5L0E

Comments are welcome!

Optime valete!
--
Gnaeus Caelius Ahenobarbus
Aedilis Oppidi, Oppidum Fluminis Gilae, America Austroccidentalis
Accensus, cos. M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus et T. Iulius Sabinus
http://becomingnewt hroughtheold. blogspot. com


Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59019 From: Titus Iulius Sabinus Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: 10 abrogationes.
SALVE TRIBUNE!

Usually Constitution set the directions. The law set the details. We
can't go on to infinite with continuous Constitution amendments as
time is more simple and flexible to do that with a law.
You said that nobody knows how this law would look like. Where is the
problem? You will see it when will be proposed. Nobody takes your
right to vote no if is not in concordance with what you consider is
right. More than that, the future law will be voted in the CPT. As
tribunus plebis you don't have trust in the future decision of your
entire plebeian order? You think that the plebeian order is not able
to vote following their interest? A new law gives you the right to
maintain the tribunes number to five or to increase it to 100. If
future magistrates, through a new law, want to set it at 3, THEY CAN
NOT because the law must be approved first in comitia.

VALE,
IVL SABINVS

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Titus Flavius Aquila
<titus.aquila@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Consul Sabinus,
>
> we have currently the fixed value of 5 valuable Tribunes and should
give it up for an undefined number of Tribunes, determined by a
certain law in the future to be where nobody knows how this law would
look like ?
>
> I can not accept this.
>
> If this will not be changed in the lex amendment proposal, in order
to state that the Plebeians will keep their 5 Tribunes, I will need
to veto , I am ready to do so.
>
>
> Optime vale
> Titus Flavius Aquila
> Tribunus Plebis Nova Roma
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59020 From: marcushoratius Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: a. d. III Eidus Novembris: War with Boii and Ligurians
M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus Quiritibus et omnibus salutem
plurimam dicit: Diis bene iuvantibus simus.

Hodie est ante diem III Eidus Novembris; haec dies comitialis est:
Ludi Plebii

AUC 557 / 196 BCE: War with the Boii and Ligurians

"Soon after these instances of Fortune's caprice, the other consul,
L. Furius Purpurio, invaded the Boian territory from the Sapinian
canton in Umbria. He was approaching the fortress of Mutelus, but
fearing that he might be cut off by the Boii and Ligurians, he led
his army back over the way he had come, and by making a wide detour
through open and therefore safe country ultimately joined his
colleague. With their united armies they traversed the Boian country
as far as the town of Felsina, systematically plundering as they
advanced. That place, with all the fortified positions in the country
round, surrendered, as did most of the tribe; the younger men
remained in arms for the sake of plunder and had retreated into the
depths of the forest. Then the two armies advanced against the
Ligurians. The Boii, who were still in arms, expected that as they
were supposed to be a long way off the Roman army would be more
careless in keeping its formation on the march, and they followed it
through secret paths in the forest with the intention of making a
surprise attack. As they did not catch it up, they suddenly crossed
the Po in ships and devastated the lands of the Laevi and Libui. On
their way back along the Ligurian frontier they fell in with the
Roman armies whilst they were loaded with plunder. The battle began
more quickly and more furiously than if the time and place had
previously been determined and all preparations made for battle. Here
was a striking instance of the way in which passion stimulates
courage, for the Romans were so determined to kill rather than simply
to win a victory that they left hardly a man alive to carry the news
of the battle. When the despatch announcing this success reached Rome
a three days' thanksgiving was ordered for the victory. Marcellus
arrived in Rome soon afterwards and a triumph was unanimously
accorded to him by the senate. He celebrated his triumph over the
Insubres and the Comensians while still in office. The anticipation
of a triumph over the Boii he resigned to his colleague, because he
personally had been unsuccessful against them, only in conjunction
with his colleague had he been victorious. A large amount of spoil
was carried in the wagons taken from the enemy, including numerous
standards. The specie amounted to 320,000 ases and 234,000 silver
denarii. Each legionary received a gratuity of 80 ases; the cavalry
and centurions each three times as much." ~ Titus Livius 33.37


AUC 557 / 196 BCE: Ludi Plebii extended to seven days

Following the announcement of the Victory of Flaminius over Perseus
at Cynocephalae in the summer, during the fall...

"The Roman Games in the Circus Maximus and the scenic plays on the
stage were exhibited by the curule aediles, P. Cornelius Scipio and
Cneius Manlius Vulso, on a more splendid scale than usual, and amid
greater hilarity on the part of the spectators owing to the recent
successes in the field. Three times they were repeated in every
detail. The Plebeian Games were repeated seven times. The latter were
exhibited by Manius Acilius Glabrio and C. Laelius, and out of the
proceeds of fines they set up bronze statues of Ceres, Liber and
Libera." ~ Titus Livius 33.25

AUC 558 / 195 BCE: First Epulones elected

"This year for the first time three epulones were appointed, namely
C. Licinius Lucullus, one of the tribunes of the plebs who had got
the law passed under which they were appointed, and with him P.
Manlius and P. Portius Laeca. They were allowed by law to wear the
toga praetexta like the priests." ~ Titus Livius 33.42


Not all was well for Rome in these years of 197-195 BCE. A Roman army
was defeated in Hispania. The fact that the Boii and Ligurians could
still threaten northern Italy was worisome for another 100 years amd
more. But it was at this time, expanding west after the Second Punic
War and east with the Macedonian Wars that Rome became tremedously
wealthy, and its games, ever more spectacular, was a reflection of
this.


AUC 697 / 56 BCE: Clodius Pulcher attacked M Tullius Cicero on the
Via Sacra; Cicero took shelter in the house of Tettius Damio


Our thought for today is from M Tullius Cicero, De Officiis 1.4.13

"Above all, the search after truth and its eager pursuit are peculiar
to man. And so, when we have leisure from the demands of business
cares, we are eager to see, to hear, to learn something new, and we
esteem a desire to know the secrets or wonders of creation as
indispensable to a happy life. Thus we come to understand that what
is true, simple, and genuine appeals most strongly to a man's nature.
To this passion for discovering truth there is added a hungering, as
it were, for independence, so that a mind well-moulded by Nature is
unwilling to be subject to anybody save one who gives rules of
conduct or is a teacher of truth or who, for the general good, rules
according to justice and law. From this attitude come greatness of
soul and a sense of superiority to worldly conditions."
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59021 From: Robert Levee Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: Greetings and Introduction
Salve,

Ok fine,then maybe I should change mine to"lL Duche".

Vale,
Ap.Galerius Aurelianus


--- On Tue, 11/11/08, Lucius Iulius Regulus <luciusjul25@...> wrote:

> From: Lucius Iulius Regulus <luciusjul25@...>
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Greetings and Introduction
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, November 11, 2008, 1:45 AM
> Salve,
>
> I see no offense to his email address as well with all
> due respect to those whose families suffered under Hitler.
> As long as he is not here promoting the Nazi regime or apart
> of some covert Nazi party than he is more than welcome to
> keep his email address. It is a word for leader and if he
> sees himself as a leader than all the more respect to him,
> many people characterize themselves as leaders. Maybe he
> will be a great leader here among us, no need to conclude
> that his intentions here are of a radical nature.
>
> Lucius Iulius Regulus
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Annia Minucia Marcella <annia@...>
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 9:47:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Greetings and Introduction
>
>
> Salve,
>
> I found no offense in his email name at all. I didn't
> even notice his email address till it was pointed out. I
> think people nitpick too much.
>
> Vale
> - Annia Minucia Marcella
> Legata Pro Praetore Nova Britannia
> http://novabritanni a.org
> http://myspace. com/novabritanni a
> http://ciarin. com/governor
>
> A. Sergius Cincinnatus wrote:
> Salvete,
>
> It is completely innocent, I assure you, and no way
> connected to
> national socialism. I am not a fascist. At the time I made
> this
> email address, I was big into the Japanese Anime Fullmetal
> Alchemist.
> One of my favorite characters in it (Mustang) aspired to
> become the
> leader of the state (which was named, in the anime,
> Fuhrer). So this
> email is the product of that obsession at the time. If
> anyone indeed
> is offended by it, I would be more than happy to use a
> different email.
>
> Optime valete.
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, Robert Levee
> <galerius_of_ rome@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Salve,A.Sergius Cincinnatus S.P.D.
> >
> > I welcome you to the Republic of Nova Roma.
> > The Latin name you have chosen is fine as far as I am
> concerned.
> > It is the choice of the word (FUHRER), in your g-mai;
> name that
> gives me pause.I know we do not allow fascists in Nova
> Roma, and I
> certainly hope this in no way is associated with national
> socialism.I
> hope I am wrong and often times am, but could you please
> explain the
> meaning of this name to me?It may be fairly innocent but
> the word
> conotates for some many unhappy days in our families past.
> > Optime vale,
> > Ap.Galerius Aurelianus
> >
> >
> > --- On Mon, 11/10/08, A. Sergius Cincinnatus
> <fuhrer.mustang@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > > From: A. Sergius Cincinnatus <fuhrer.mustang@
> ...>
> > > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Greetings and
> Introduction
> > > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
> > > Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 3:09 PM
> > > A. Sergius Cincinnatus Omnibus Petronioque S.P.D.
> > >
> > > Salvete!
> > >
> > > First I would like to thank everyone here for the
> warm
> > > welcome they
> > > have given me. Nothing excites me more than the
> chance to
> > > do what
> > > good I can in the Res publica.
> > >
> > > Secondly, I apologize to you, C. Petronius
> Dexter, if you
> > > feel as
> > > though I have slighted the honor of gens Sergia
> by being a
> > > plebeian.
> > > I will not go into detail as to why I chose the
> name
> > > Sergius
> > > Cincinnatus, but I will say that when I chose
> gens Sergia,
> > > I made sure
> > > to check the Album Civium to see if I would be
> the only
> > > plebeian. In
> > > fact I am not the only plebeian, and having
> consulted the
> > > Album Civium
> > > again, there are no patricians registered from
> gens Sergia.
> > >
> > > Optime valete.
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, "Gaius
> Petronius
> > > Dexter"
> > > <jfarnoud94@ > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > C. Petronius M. Hortensiae s.p.d.,
> > > >
> > >
> > > > > welcome and it is excellent to see such
> an
> > > ancient Roman gens as
> > > > > Sergia revived by citizens.
> > > >
> > > > A. Sergius Cincinnatus is not a Sergius
> revival of the
> > > gens Sergia. He
> > > > is not rekindling the Manes of the Sergii.
> The Roman
> > > Sergii, from
> > > > Sergestus comrade-in-arms to Aeneas, were
> Patricians.
> > > >
> > > > Our friend A. Sergius Cincinnatus, in
> despite is
> > > famous Sergius name
> > > > and his most famous Cincinnatus cognomen is
> not
> > > registered by our
> > > > censors into the Patrician order!
> > > >
> > > > Note: I wonder if the Manes of the Sergii
> are happy at
> > > this bad
> > > > treatment done by our censors. ;o)
> > > >
> > > > Vale.
> > > >
> > > > C. Petronius Dexter
> > > >
> >
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59022 From: Titus Flavius Aquila Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: AW: [Nova-Roma] Re: 10 abrogationes.
Salve Consul,
 

my concerns remain unchanged.We the Plebeians should give up on an agreed value to receive something in exchange in the future.
 
Optime vale
Titus Flavius Aquila
Tribunus Plebis Nova Roma


Von: Titus Iulius Sabinus <iulius_sabinus@...>
An: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Gesendet: Dienstag, den 11. November 2008, 14:39:47 Uhr
Betreff: [Nova-Roma] Re: 10 abrogationes.

SALVE TRIBUNE!

Usually Constitution set the directions. The law set the details. We
can't go on to infinite with continuous Constitution amendments as
time is more simple and flexible to do that with a law.
You said that nobody knows how this law would look like. Where is the
problem? You will see it when will be proposed. Nobody takes your
right to vote no if is not in concordance with what you consider is
right. More than that, the future law will be voted in the CPT. As
tribunus plebis you don't have trust in the future decision of your
entire plebeian order? You think that the plebeian order is not able
to vote following their interest? A new law gives you the right to
maintain the tribunes number to five or to increase it to 100. If
future magistrates, through a new law, want to set it at 3, THEY CAN
NOT because the law must be approved first in comitia.

VALE,
IVL SABINVS

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, Titus Flavius Aquila
<titus.aquila@ ...> wrote:

>
> Salve Consul Sabinus,
>
> we have currently the fixed value of 5 valuable Tribunes and should
give it up for an undefined number of Tribunes, determined by a
certain law in the future to be where nobody knows how this law would
look like ?
>
> I can not accept this.
>
> If this will not be changed in the lex amendment proposal, in order
to state that the Plebeians will keep their 5 Tribunes, I will need
to veto , I am ready to do so.
>
>
> Optime vale
> Titus Flavius Aquila
> Tribunus Plebis Nova Roma


Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59023 From: Titus Iulius Sabinus Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: 10 abrogationes.
SALVE TRIBUNE!

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Titus Flavius Aquila
<titus.aquila@...> wrote:

> my concerns remain unchanged.>>>

It's your personal right, of course.

We the Plebeians should give up on an agreed value to receive
something in exchange in the future.>>>

That with the risk to stop the future good achievements? I think is
not very difficult to see with more than one step in advance.

VALE,
IVL SABINVS


________________________________
> Von: Titus Iulius Sabinus <iulius_sabinus@...>
> An: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Gesendet: Dienstag, den 11. November 2008, 14:39:47 Uhr
> Betreff: [Nova-Roma] Re: 10 abrogationes.
>
>
> SALVE TRIBUNE!
>
> Usually Constitution set the directions. The law set the details.
We
> can't go on to infinite with continuous Constitution amendments as
> time is more simple and flexible to do that with a law.
> You said that nobody knows how this law would look like. Where is
the
> problem? You will see it when will be proposed. Nobody takes your
> right to vote no if is not in concordance with what you consider is
> right. More than that, the future law will be voted in the CPT. As
> tribunus plebis you don't have trust in the future decision of your
> entire plebeian order? You think that the plebeian order is not
able
> to vote following their interest? A new law gives you the right to
> maintain the tribunes number to five or to increase it to 100. If
> future magistrates, through a new law, want to set it at 3, THEY
CAN
> NOT because the law must be approved first in comitia.
>
> VALE,
> IVL SABINVS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59024 From: Annia Minucia Marcella Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: 10 abrogationes.
Salve,

Everything I have found for my gens is on our gens website:

http://minucia.ciarin.com

If any of you historians can direct me to more sources, feel free.

Vale
- Annia Minucia Marcella
Legata Pro Praetore Nova Britannia
http://novabritannia.org
http://myspace.com/novabritannia
http://ciarin.com/governor


M. Lucretius Agricola wrote:

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, "Gaius Petronius Dexter"
<jfarnoud94@ ...> wrote:
>
> Dexter Agricolae s.p.d.,
>
> > We have patrician and plebeian Lucretii, just as it was long ago:
> > http://www.novaroma .org/nr/Lucretiu s
>
> Super! And the NRgens Lucretia is particularly patrician, among five
> individuals four are patricians.; o)
>
> Anyway, when I see the NRWiki page consacrated to the gens Lucretia, it
> is a beautiful work!
>
> Optime vale.
>
> C. Petronius Dexter
>

Ago tibi gratias multas ob verbis tuis.

I think it would be nice if more citizens would really research their
nomina and write articles. A general article about the family would be
a start, and then in the case of important well known people, separate
articles could branch off.

bene vale.

Agricola

Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59025 From: Titus Flavius Aquila Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: AW: [Nova-Roma] Re: 10 abrogationes.
Salve Consul,
 
Here again the very interessting statement of Consul Piscinus:
 
Quote:"It was the consensus of those attending the Conventus that a general reduction in the number of all offices would make our administration more efficient and our elections more competitive." 
 
No word about increasing the number of Tribunes. You want to reduce the magistrate offices.
 
As Censor Paulinus has stated , and I agree to:  "The number of magistrates should be set by the constitution as it gives the republic stability."
 
Optime vale
Titus Flavius Aquila



Von: Titus Iulius Sabinus <iulius_sabinus@...>
An: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Gesendet: Dienstag, den 11. November 2008, 14:39:47 Uhr
Betreff: [Nova-Roma] Re: 10 abrogationes.

SALVE TRIBUNE!

Usually Constitution set the directions. The law set the details. We
can't go on to infinite with continuous Constitution amendments as
time is more simple and flexible to do that with a law.
You said that nobody knows how this law would look like. Where is the
problem? You will see it when will be proposed. Nobody takes your
right to vote no if is not in concordance with what you consider is
right. More than that, the future law will be voted in the CPT. As
tribunus plebis you don't have trust in the future decision of your
entire plebeian order? You think that the plebeian order is not able
to vote following their interest? A new law gives you the right to
maintain the tribunes number to five or to increase it to 100. If
future magistrates, through a new law, want to set it at 3, THEY CAN
NOT because the law must be approved first in comitia.

VALE,
IVL SABINVS

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, Titus Flavius Aquila
<titus.aquila@ ...> wrote:

>
> Salve Consul Sabinus,
>
> we have currently the fixed value of 5 valuable Tribunes and should
give it up for an undefined number of Tribunes, determined by a
certain law in the future to be where nobody knows how this law would
look like ?
>
> I can not accept this.
>
> If this will not be changed in the lex amendment proposal, in order
to state that the Plebeians will keep their 5 Tribunes, I will need
to veto , I am ready to do so.
>
>
> Optime vale
> Titus Flavius Aquila
> Tribunus Plebis Nova Roma


Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59026 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: 10 abrogationes.
C. Petronius M. Hortensiae s.p.d.,

> So fascinating, I've looked but found nothing for my gens
Hortensia,
> so frustrating.

You can chose your own cults.

> Liber and Feronia, interesting,

I also learnt that the dies Natalis of the goddess Feronia in Rome,
in the Campus Martius, falls on the Ides of November. And as you
know, the Ides of November are the 13 of November.

So, I have two days to write a little poem to Feronia, as Petronius.

> the Servili I recollect had a very
> strange cultus..

Yes, a cupper coin growing and narrowing...

Vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59027 From: Titus Iulius Sabinus Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: 10 abrogationes.
SALVE TRIBUNE!

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Titus Flavius Aquila
<titus.aquila@...> wrote:

> Here again the very interessting statement of Consul Piscinus:
> Quote:"It was the consensus of those attending the Conventus that a
general reduction in the number of all offices would make our
administration more efficient and our elections more competitive." 
> No word about increasing the number of Tribunes. You want to reduce
the magistrate offices.>>>

During the Conventus the reduction was discussed. In some cases the
reduction is good thing from the reasons Piscinus explained. During
the time were many debates about this subject on this main list. NR
history proves that in the tribunes, aediles plebis and quaestores
cases was lack of candidacy and then during the year lack of activity.

In the tribunes case it seems that the plebeian order don't want a
reduction of their number.

Ok. Consuls understood that and the rogatio was modified. There is
not any reduction at this time.

VALE,
IVL SABINVS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59028 From: Stefn Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: OT: Getting into 20th Cent. history, a little, was Re: Greetings and
Ave Aurelianus;

On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 07:45 Ap Galerius wrote:
> Salve,
>
> Ok fine,then maybe I should change mine to"lL Duche".
>
> Vale,
> Ap.Galerius Aurelianus
>

Which is the affectionate nickname we have in my family for my
grandfather. He is a strong willed man, who (when Nonnie let him ,-)
was and is our definite Pater Familias, he is our Duche.

He was a youngster under the first couple of years when the National
Fascist Party ruled Italy and then his family was able to emigrate to
the USA. He remembers watching street fights between Communist and
Fascists street toughs. His leg was broken during one such and it was
a Fascist thug who got him home. In his memory, the Fascists did do
good for Italy (such as bringing electricity to his village). But,
from watching from afar what happened during WW II, he has no
affection for them.

He does, however, have a fond memory of King Victor Emmanuel III and
Prince Luigi Amedeo (Duca d'Abruzzi) visiting his birthplace a few
years before the above events.

One can not, nor should not, forget the lessons of the past.

I am fortunate that my grandfather is still around for me to hear, and
am doubly grateful that his mind is only slightly dimmed by close to a
century of life. He has been a touchstone as I have aged and have
grown to appreciate that past is present is possible future.

I learned much from my other elders, but he has been around so much
longer than they.

I am also fortunate that so many veterans of past conflicts have been
mentors in my life. Through them, when they would speak of their
experiences, I learned of the many evils that "mankind" is capable of
inflicting.

I remain hopeful, though.

I try to look at reasons and ideas, and engage others in conversation
based on this worldview.
I try to approach others with courtesy and in a friendly manner.
I am also curious and am interested in the stories that others have to tell.
I am cautious in rendering judgment about others, especially based
upon the appearance of little glowing dots on a computer screen.

I do have my beliefs and feeling, they strengthen me.

In parting, just these thoughts; words can not, nor should not, remain
forever proscribed because of past bad associations. This, so long as
such words are not slurs against individuals due to some fact of their
being nor have irredeemably evil connotations. Otherwise, we will
find ourselves in an ever tightening ring of lesser and lesser
expression.

vale - Venator
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59029 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: When no censors are in office
Salve Tiberia Consularis,

pompeia_minucia_tiberia <pompeia_minucia_tiberia@...> writes:

> ---Pompeia Minucia Equitio Marino sal:
>
> In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@...>
> wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> What I meant is that the praetors and consuls can address
> wrongdoing
>> using the existing laws.
>
> Pompeia: And I ask you again........which existing laws?

The Lex Salicia Poenalis for most cases of wrongdoing.

> Notae are censorial admonitions, and they
>> exist outside the scope of punitive law.
>
> Pompeia: Which is my point *exactly*. Punitive law cannot be used
> to undo a nota, nor pursue one.

That's correct. I think you and I are in complete agreement on this.
I don't know why you keep addressing it.

> Pompeia: Meaning, for NR that,.... under this new proposal we have
> two potential problems for the Republic and her citizens:
>
> 1)When a nota is badly needed there will be no Censors to issue it in
> their absent years.

Yes, that is true. It was also true in antiquity, and for much longer
periods of time. Censors were in office for only 18 months out of
every five years. Instead, what Consul Moravius is proposing is to
have censors in office for 12 months out of every 24.

> 2) And/or, it could be upwards of two years that an individual
> remains notarized, and this, in the worst case scenerio, means not
> being able to run for office or vote, with next-to-no reliable
> recourse, for a rather lengthy period of time.

Yes. This is also as things were in antiquity.

> And, no, we can't appeal a 'nota' through our trial system.

That's correct. There is no appeal. Only censors can rescind a nota.

[...]
> Pompeia: ...with the added potential consequences that arise from
> the Censors not being in office at a time when they are needed. If
> you are going to stiffen up the nota language, the Censors should be
> around all the time.

Or at least most of the time. I've been trying to explain Consul
Moravius' proposal, not endorse it. What I had proposed to him was to
have censors serve 18 month terms as in antiquity, but be elected
every two years. However, he decided that was too long, so he wrote
the legislation that you see. It is, as are so many things, a
compromise.

> I see this proposal as having historical elements, but I also see
> some of this proposal as contributing great *growth*. In what areas?
> The 51 Century, the Urban Tribes, and the Socci.

Only if we get two censors who are determined to use the nota in ways
it has never before been applied in Nova Roma. The citizens can
prevent that simply by paying attention in their voting.

Vale,

CN-EQVIT-MARINVS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59030 From: Titus Flavius Aquila Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: AW: [Nova-Roma] Re: 10 abrogationes.
Salve Consul,
 
thank you.
 
 
You have stated:
 
In the tribunes case it seems that the plebeian order don't want a reduction of their number.

Ok. Consuls understood that and the rogatio was modified. There is not any reduction at this time.
 
So what is the big problem in keeping the constitution for the Tribunus Plebis as it is ?
You have made the first step, let's take the second step as well.
 
"Tribuni Plebis (Tribune of the Plebs). Five tribunes of the plebs shall be elected by the comitia plebis tributa to serve a term lasting one year."

 

Optime vale

Titus Flavius Aquila



Von: Titus Iulius Sabinus <iulius_sabinus@...>
An: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Gesendet: Dienstag, den 11. November 2008, 15:44:02 Uhr
Betreff: [Nova-Roma] Re: 10 abrogationes.

SALVE TRIBUNE!

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, Titus Flavius Aquila
<titus.aquila@ ...> wrote:

> Here again the very interessting  statement of Consul Piscinus:
> Quote:"It was the consensus of those attending the Conventus that a
general reduction in the number of all offices would make our
administration more efficient and our elections more competitive. " 
> No word about increasing the number of Tribunes. You want to reduce
the magistrate offices.>>>

During the Conventus the reduction was discussed. In some cases the
reduction is good thing from the reasons Piscinus explained. During
the time were many debates about this subject on this main list. NR
history proves that in the tribunes, aediles plebis and quaestores
cases was lack of candidacy and then during the year lack of activity.

In the tribunes case it seems that the plebeian order don't want a
reduction of their number.

Ok. Consuls understood that and the rogatio was modified. There is
not any reduction at this time.

VALE,
IVL SABINVS


Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59031 From: Robert Levee Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: OT: Getting into 20th Cent. history, a little, was Re: Greetings
Ave Venator,

Very well spoken.I wish all the best for your grandfather and all your familia.

Vale,
Aurelianus


--- On Tue, 11/11/08, Stefn Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus <famila.ulleria.venii@...> wrote:

> From: Stefn Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus <famila.ulleria.venii@...>
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] OT: Getting into 20th Cent. history, a little, was Re: Greetings and Introduction
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, November 11, 2008, 9:59 AM
> Ave Aurelianus;
>
> On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 07:45 Ap Galerius wrote:
> > Salve,
> >
> > Ok fine,then maybe I should change mine to"lL
> Duche".
> >
> > Vale,
> > Ap.Galerius Aurelianus
> >
>
> Which is the affectionate nickname we have in my family for
> my
> grandfather. He is a strong willed man, who (when Nonnie
> let him ,-)
> was and is our definite Pater Familias, he is our Duche.
>
> He was a youngster under the first couple of years when the
> National
> Fascist Party ruled Italy and then his family was able to
> emigrate to
> the USA. He remembers watching street fights between
> Communist and
> Fascists street toughs. His leg was broken during one such
> and it was
> a Fascist thug who got him home. In his memory, the
> Fascists did do
> good for Italy (such as bringing electricity to his
> village). But,
> from watching from afar what happened during WW II, he has
> no
> affection for them.
>
> He does, however, have a fond memory of King Victor
> Emmanuel III and
> Prince Luigi Amedeo (Duca d'Abruzzi) visiting his
> birthplace a few
> years before the above events.
>
> One can not, nor should not, forget the lessons of the
> past.
>
> I am fortunate that my grandfather is still around for me
> to hear, and
> am doubly grateful that his mind is only slightly dimmed by
> close to a
> century of life. He has been a touchstone as I have aged
> and have
> grown to appreciate that past is present is possible
> future.
>
> I learned much from my other elders, but he has been around
> so much
> longer than they.
>
> I am also fortunate that so many veterans of past conflicts
> have been
> mentors in my life. Through them, when they would speak of
> their
> experiences, I learned of the many evils that
> "mankind" is capable of
> inflicting.
>
> I remain hopeful, though.
>
> I try to look at reasons and ideas, and engage others in
> conversation
> based on this worldview.
> I try to approach others with courtesy and in a friendly
> manner.
> I am also curious and am interested in the stories that
> others have to tell.
> I am cautious in rendering judgment about others,
> especially based
> upon the appearance of little glowing dots on a computer
> screen.
>
> I do have my beliefs and feeling, they strengthen me.
>
> In parting, just these thoughts; words can not, nor should
> not, remain
> forever proscribed because of past bad associations. This,
> so long as
> such words are not slurs against individuals due to some
> fact of their
> being nor have irredeemably evil connotations. Otherwise,
> we will
> find ourselves in an ever tightening ring of lesser and
> lesser
> expression.
>
> vale - Venator
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59032 From: Lyn Dowling Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: OT: Getting into 20th Cent. history, a little, was Re: Greetings
Salve, Piperbarbe,
 
How right you are; you just can't judge the "enemy" until you hear his story.
 
I once had a boss who led an interesting life. A Bavarian, he always wanted to fly, and so his parents enrolled him in the Hitler Youth, as that was the only way a young German could get flying lessons in the 1930s. He thought the Hitler Youth was ridiculous -- "Nasty little boys, dressed up and playing at soldier. They were the class tattletales, the kids everyone hates," he said -- and quit, but it did get him flying lessons. Eventually, he went into the Luftwaffe as a glider pilot.
 
Walter also was one of the "Swingjugend" ("Swing Youth") who would sneak off to church halls to dance to British and American music on the radio, and he was at one such party when the word of the Pearl Harbor bombing and declaration of hostilities came. He remembered his first thought: "Oh, my God! We're at war with Glenn Miller!"
 
He was captured by the Americans and liked them well enough to follow them home, the rest of his family having been killed. He joined the U.S. Air Force, later was commissioned, served in Korea and retired as a major, after which he and his wife worked with kids in the Civil Air Patrol. Walter was one of the most patriotic, community-minded and broad-minded people I've ever met.
 
On this Veterans' Day/Armistice Day, here's to all who stand up and fight for their beliefs
 
vale,
L.Aemilia Mamerca
 


From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Stefn Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 10:00 AM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] OT: Getting into 20th Cent. history, a little, was Re: Greetings and Introduction

Ave Aurelianus;

On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 07:45 Ap Galerius wrote:

> Salve,
>
> Ok fine,then maybe I should change mine
to"lL Duche".
>
> Vale,
> Ap.Galerius
Aurelianus
>

Which is the affectionate nickname we have in my family for my
grandfather. He is a strong willed man, who (when Nonnie let him ,-)
was and is our definite Pater Familias, he is our Duche.

He was a youngster under the first couple of years when the National
Fascist Party ruled Italy and then his family was able to emigrate to
the USA. He remembers watching street fights between Communist and
Fascists street toughs. His leg was broken during one such and it was
a Fascist thug who got him home. In his memory, the Fascists did do
good for Italy (such as bringing electricity to his village). But,
from watching from afar what happened during WW II, he has no
affection for them.

He does, however, have a fond memory of King Victor Emmanuel III and
Prince Luigi Amedeo (Duca d'Abruzzi) visiting his birthplace a few
years before the above events.

One can not, nor should not, forget the lessons of the past.

I am fortunate that my grandfather is still around for me to hear, and
am doubly grateful that his mind is only slightly dimmed by close to a
century of life. He has been a touchstone as I have aged and have
grown to appreciate that past is present is possible future.

I learned much from my other elders, but he has been around so much
longer than they.

I am also fortunate that so many veterans of past conflicts have been
mentors in my life. Through them, when they would speak of their
experiences, I learned of the many evils that "mankind" is capable of
inflicting.

I remain hopeful, though.

I try to look at reasons and ideas, and engage others in conversation
based on this worldview.
I try to approach others with courtesy and in a friendly manner.
I am also curious and am interested in the stories that others have to tell.
I am cautious in rendering judgment about others, especially based
upon the appearance of little glowing dots on a computer screen.

I do have my beliefs and feeling, they strengthen me.

In parting, just these thoughts; words can not, nor should not, remain
forever proscribed because of past bad associations. This, so long as
such words are not slurs against individuals due to some fact of their
being nor have irredeemably evil connotations. Otherwise, we will
find ourselves in an ever tightening ring of lesser and lesser
expression.

vale - Venator

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.1/1781 - Release Date: 11/11/2008 8:59 AM

Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59033 From: vallenporter Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: 10 abrogationes.
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Petronius Dexter"
<jfarnoud94@...> wrote:
>
> C. Petronius omnibus Quiritibus s.p.d.,
>
> Perhaps it exists a sodalitas that I do not know where these
abrogationes are discussed. Because it seems to me that we will vote
10 Moraviae-Juliae rogationes. But nor M. Moravius neither T. Julius
are coming before us to expose these rogationes. Why they propose
these rogationes? Am I so stupid that I wish a debat about all these
rogationes?
>
> For example in the rogatio Moravia Iulia de institutis publicis
religiosis
>
> I read:
> "A. The Religio Romana, defined as the traditional worship of the
Gods and Goddesses of Rome, shall be the official religion of Nova Roma."
>
> With which consequences? A law is not only a text it is also a
"sanctio".
>
> If the Religio Romana shall be the official religion of Nova Roma,
can I notice than many things will be then moved or changed? For
example, as I said with the Patrician gentes.
>
> If we worship the gods and goddesses of Rome, we must honour the
patrician families of Rome and we will have the duty to recreate them.
For example, the patrician family Julia worship more specially "pro
populo Romano" the worships to Venus and Apollo, the gens Nautia had
the duty to honour Minerva with the Palladium whose a copy was in the
aedes of Vesta, the patrician gens Claudia worshipped more specially
and "pro populo Romano" the goddess Bellona, this gens also worshipped
the god Saturnus which was prayed "aperto capite", head naked. This
gens also proposed "pro populo Romano" the rirual of the "porcus
propudialis", in order to repear the negligences towards the rituals. Etc.
>
> By the way, when I discovered than the gens Petronia, my gens, a
plebeian gens probably Sabin, honoured more specially the god Liber
Pater and the great Sabin goddess Feronia, I wrote that in the French
page I have dedicated to the gens Petronia:
>
> http://www.novaroma.org/nr/FR:Gens_Petronia
>
> In my opinion, the Roman patrician families are to be recreated, if
the traditional Religio Romana becomes the official religion of Nova
Roma.
>
> Valete.
>
> C. Petronius Dexter

Salve C. Petronius Dexter

With all due respect , what are you talking about.?

when you ask
"
?if the traditional Religio Romana becomes the Official religion of
Nova Roma.?"

There is no IF ,The Religio Romana has been official religion of Nova
Roma from the start of Nova Roma.
It has always been the Official religion of Nova Roma.
I do not see where you are coming from.

Also you state"In my opinion, the Roman patrician families are to be
recreated" .Again i ask How?

vale
Marcus Cornelius Felix
Sacerdos Templi Mercurius
Sacerdotus Provincia America Boreoccidentalis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59034 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: One Last Appeal
Po Minucia Consularis Senatrix Tito Flavio Aquilo Quiritibus S.P.D.

Granted, I have expressed some concerns regarding some of the
proposals, and these will just have to go to vote, as I see it.

When laws are proposed, I have to look not only the intentions of
magistrates proposing them, but how the proposals themselves can, when
administered in the future, impact the republic, for good or for ill,
and how much the people will be able to do about it, if the situation
is undesirable. If their language can be used as recipes for
disaster, then they really need to be pondered in terms of whether
they should pass at all.

I haven't received any helpful responses to any concerns I've
expressed, nor have others that I can see, except from the Tribune.
And I applaud your attention, Tribune. As an aside, I don't call a
chanting of "it's historical", or " *we* are trying to be back to
history" as direct answers to any questions. In fact, I find these
responses a complete evasion of questions.

Anyway, to the magistrate who has the attention of the people, I make
one last appeal to you, to examine the ramifications of having an
undetermined number of Praetores candidating for office in NR, with no
predetermined criteria on how this number will be adjusted from year
to year.

I don't normally ask Tribunes to be 'veto happy' but this proposal
could potentially upset the ratio of Senators to people, making for a
lopsidedly large Senate. Our constitution is a document affording
right and privilege, and aims to put our legislative bodies into
balance to the benefit of citizens and growth of the republic.

Does a proposal which evidently threatens this desired equilibrium not
fall under being against the 'spirit' of the constitution and
give pause for intercessio?

Let me detail what could well happen by looking at the Lex Popillia
Senatoria:



http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Lex_Popillia_senatoria_(Nova_Roma)

If an inordinate number of Praetores were elected over the next few
years (and by this generous proposal many could), the Praetores would,
by the above law, be automatically entitled to attend the Senate
meetings. They may not be sublected as 'full fledged' Senators.....
but nonetheless *to vote* as Senators.

To illustrate: there is little difference between a queen who has the
power of a queen but who *isn't* called 'Queen', and a queen who has
the power of a queen who *is* called 'Queen'.

We can further see by the above prevailing law that a Censor can
delay formal sublection to the Senate by 'passing over'individuals,
yes; but these future Praetors (how many who knows over even a few
years?) are still voting in the Senate, and remain entitled for
consideration of sublection by the next set of Censors.... above many
others. They would be 'in line'...and voting in the Senate all the
while, while blocking/delaying the consideration of others for
adlection to the Senate body.

Tribunes do not have this privilege...they attend the Senate during
their term and do not vote. Then they leave. If this law passes and
is administered inappropriately, there is little to no chance for a
Tribune to return as a sublected Senator, or any room for an
outstanding, deserving governor. Not for some time anyway...like,
maybe when you are 80 years old, or perhaps you could be considered
posthumously as a formality? :>)



You read the lex, Tribune, I implore you, and see what you think. Is
this unnamed number of imperium-bearing 'shoe-ins' to the Senate body
a benefit to the people...is there a benefit I am not seeing? I would
love to hear it. All I see is a potential danger for a top heavy
Senate, with little room for anyone else.

The Senate has certain powers which others do not have. Ratification
of consitutional amendments for one thing.

And would you ever want the status of the religio endangered by an
imbalance of one legislative body over another, for example?

And for those who say that these Praetores, unknown as yet in
quantity, are 'duly elected by the people'....

Oh?...

46% of the votes we were able to count in the Comitia Centuriata
last year were decided by *lot*, because the centuries are too small
in membership and even numbered. Are we duly electing by the people?
I think sequential voting will make for less ballots spoiled, but I
don't think it will fix the overload of tied decisions, and I
understand the religious aspect of lots, btw.

As for having only one Praetor with no collegial veto, well the
ramifications of this are of equal concern.

To finish, and to make one last final appeal, for the integrity of the
republic and benefit of all of us:

I ask you to intervene in insisting the Consuls return the number '2'
to the number of Praetores who can be elected in this republic, and
consider an intercessio on this item, please.

I am not blowing off steam, honestly. I've been a past Consul,
Praetor, Custos, Accensus, Scribe, Governor and I serve as a Senator.
I see big potential for future problems, big problems, which compel
me to speak.

Vale Aquila Tribune, Valete Omnes
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59035 From: Titus Iulius Sabinus Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: 10 abrogationes.
SALVE TRIBUNE!

We don't need the second step because it has no repercussions to the
first.
More than that the current version create more good and flexible ways
to deal with many problems.
How I explained in one of my previous message the Constitution set
the direction and the law set the details.
Nova Roma need more laws. Magistrates involvement proposing laws and
the citizens right to vote represent the health of the Republic.
Sometime our lack of laws created during the time many debates and
for many times the rigid form of our Constitution blocked possible
good ways of development.
Through these 10 rogationes a very good opportunity is created as:
- magistrates to propose laws in order to develop what is necessary
to be developed.
- citizens to vote these laws and through their opinion to effective
put in practice their right as political body.

If magistrates create bad laws, vote against them. If they create
good laws, sustain them. Citizens will decide which the course of
action is. But don't deny the magistrates right to present laws
because one of the reason they were elected is exactly that.

Rogationes Moravia Iulia offer to the citizens the future right to
decide voting the proposed laws.
Don't forget that comitia, the supreme assemblies of Roman citizens,
were the legislative power of the Roman state.

VALETE,
IVL SABINVS

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Titus Flavius Aquila
<titus.aquila@...> wrote:
> You have stated:
>
> In the tribunes case it seems that the plebeian order don't want a
reduction of their number.
>
> Ok. Consuls understood that and the rogatio was modified. There is
not any reduction at this time.
>  
> So what is the big problem in keeping the constitution for the
Tribunus Plebis as it is ?
> You have made the first step, let's take the second step as well.
>
> "Tribuni Plebis (Tribune of the Plebs). Five tribunes of the plebs
shall be elected by the comitia plebis tributa to serve a term
lasting one year."
>  
> Optime vale
> Titus Flavius Aquila
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59036 From: Titus Iulius Sabinus Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: One Last Appeal
SALVE ET SALVETE!

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "pompeia_minucia_tiberia"
<pompeia_minucia_tiberia@...> wrote:

> As for having only one Praetor with no collegial veto, well the
> ramifications of this are of equal concern.
> To finish, and to make one last final appeal, for the integrity of
the republic and benefit of all of us:
> I ask you to intervene in insisting the Consuls return the number '2'
to the number of Praetores who can be elected in this republic, and
consider an intercessio on this item, please.>>>

I understand your reasons when it comes about praetores. I will discuss
that with Piscinus.

VALETE,
IVL SABINVS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59037 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: 10 abrogationes.
C. Petronius T. Sabino s.p.d.,

>The entire rogatio
> was presented on the Collegium Pontificum list at 6 November. As
time
> you are member of Collegium Pontificum list starting with 15
October
> I'm sure you paid attention to it at that time.

I am unforgivable ! I hope that M. Moravius and you still will
forgive me.

> When it comes about what you mentioned about gentes, you done well
in
> your gens case. I really appreciate that because you moved on not
> waiting as someone else to offer you all the answers. In my opinion
> this is exactly what NR needs: initiative. All what NR has,
> magistrates, sodalitas, lists and so on, are at its citizens
> disposal. If citizens have initiative sure they will find answers.

Thank you very much for these kind words.

Optime vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59038 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: When no censors are in office
--Pompeia Minucia Strabo Gn. Equitio Marino S.P.D.

It seems you are confused.

The purpose of this thread was not to solicit education on the circles
and sticks of punitive law vs Censors' Notae. I am well aware, being
here as long as you have, that judicial/punitive law and notae (which
can also be punitive in nature, really) are like apples and oranges.

To the nittygritty:


When another Senator posted a concern to the ML in general regarding
how matters regarding notae would be addressed in the absence of
Censors in a given year, you volunteered a response stating that the
Consuls and Praetors could address these matters by existing law.

And again, for the third time, I ask you: by which existing law(s)
would the Consuls and Praetors address this? All the Consuls and
Praetors currently have are judicial/punitive laws...in other words,
they cannot be helpful in the absence of Censors in most if not all
instances.

This leads me back to my initial take on this. This hadn't been
thought of when the proposal was being written, and I guess 'We'll
worry about that some other time'

But in response, you insisted that hey, this isn't what you meant at
all...Well, just what do you mean?

I hope I have at least clarified for you the chronology of what was
discussed when and who brought what up, Marine.


Anyway, to digress a bit, you say you are not defending this proposal,
only trying to explain it by saying this or that happened in antiquity:

When I said ,after having interpreted the language of the new
proposal, that it could be upwards of two years before a citizen notae
is rescinded, rendering that citizen unable to vote or run for office
with limited to nothing that can be done about it ....you respond
(from below) with:

"Yes. This is also as things were in antiquity."

And if this happens too often, Marine, do you think people are going
to hang around NR? All to glorify history? Most people who lose these
kinds of privileges are at least granted a trial, in or out of NR.
That or they are deceased and lose them that way.(And again, I know
the difference between a nota and court system)

What I'm reading is 'the more historical, the better for NR'. And by
your desired, more historical plan, which I'm happy is not being
proposed, the censors should be in office in NR for only 18 months
every 5 years, with an even longer interim where issues that only
Censors can address will remain dormant.

Historical precedent is a noble goal....enslavement to it is not
appropriate, and it will ultimately turn people off, even the
religious people will go offer someplace else...they will be so tired
of the historical beurocracy.


I'll end on a comedic note. We were discussing the proposal as
potentially contributing growth to the 51 Century, Urban Tribes and Socci

You responded (from below):

" Only if we get two censors who are determined to use the nota in ways
it has never before been applied in Nova Roma. The citizens can
prevent that simply by paying attention in their voting."

That statement, Marine, from a former election staff perspective, is
extremely entertaining. The people can pay as much attention as they
like to the election of Censors, or anyone else. The fact remains,
that almost half of their decisions to elect our highest magistrates
are decided by lot... And I am not overly hopeful that this ratio will
change much because of the sequential voting being stopped.

>
Pompeia




- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Tiberia Consularis,
>
> pompeia_minucia_tiberia <pompeia_minucia_tiberia@...> writes:
>
> > ---Pompeia Minucia Equitio Marino sal:
> >
> > In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> [...]
> >>
> >> What I meant is that the praetors and consuls can address
> > wrongdoing
> >> using the existing laws.
> >
> > Pompeia: And I ask you again........which existing laws?
>
> The Lex Salicia Poenalis for most cases of wrongdoing.
>
> > Notae are censorial admonitions, and they
> >> exist outside the scope of punitive law.
> >
> > Pompeia: Which is my point *exactly*. Punitive law cannot be used
> > to undo a nota, nor pursue one.
>
> That's correct. I think you and I are in complete agreement on this.
> I don't know why you keep addressing it.
>
> > Pompeia: Meaning, for NR that,.... under this new proposal we have
> > two potential problems for the Republic and her citizens:
> >
> > 1)When a nota is badly needed there will be no Censors to issue it in
> > their absent years.
>
> Yes, that is true. It was also true in antiquity, and for much longer
> periods of time. Censors were in office for only 18 months out of
> every five years. Instead, what Consul Moravius is proposing is to
> have censors in office for 12 months out of every 24.
>
> > 2) And/or, it could be upwards of two years that an individual
> > remains notarized, and this, in the worst case scenerio, means not
> > being able to run for office or vote, with next-to-no reliable
> > recourse, for a rather lengthy period of time.
>
> Yes. This is also as things were in antiquity.
>
> > And, no, we can't appeal a 'nota' through our trial system.
>
> That's correct. There is no appeal. Only censors can rescind a nota.
>
> [...]
> > Pompeia: ...with the added potential consequences that arise from
> > the Censors not being in office at a time when they are needed. If
> > you are going to stiffen up the nota language, the Censors should be
> > around all the time.
>
> Or at least most of the time. I've been trying to explain Consul
> Moravius' proposal, not endorse it. What I had proposed to him was to
> have censors serve 18 month terms as in antiquity, but be elected
> every two years. However, he decided that was too long, so he wrote
> the legislation that you see. It is, as are so many things, a
> compromise.
>
> > I see this proposal as having historical elements, but I also see
> > some of this proposal as contributing great *growth*. In what areas?
> > The 51 Century, the Urban Tribes, and the Socci.
>
> Only if we get two censors who are determined to use the nota in ways
> it has never before been applied in Nova Roma. Only if we get two
censors who are determined to use the nota in ways
it has never before been applied in Nova Roma. The citizens can
prevent that simply by paying attention in their voting.

> Vale,
>
> CN-EQVIT-MARINVS
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59039 From: Titus Flavius Aquila Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: AW: [Nova-Roma] Re: 10 abrogationes.
Salve Consul Sabinus,
 
I am not convinced and my concerns remain as stated.
 
If you talk to Consul Piscinus then please make it very clear to him, that under these circumstances I do not have
any other option then to invoke intercessio (veto).
 
Either the 5 tribunes remain in the constitution as stated
 
"Tribuni Plebis (Tribune of the Plebs). Five tribunes of the plebs shall be elected by the comitia plebis tributa to serve a term lasting one year."
 
or I will veto.
 
Optime vale
Titus Flavius Aquila


Von: Titus Iulius Sabinus <iulius_sabinus@...>
An: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Gesendet: Dienstag, den 11. November 2008, 17:10:39 Uhr
Betreff: [Nova-Roma] Re: 10 abrogationes.

SALVE TRIBUNE!

We don't need the second step because it has no repercussions to the
first.
More than that the current version create more good and flexible ways
to deal with many problems.
How I explained in one of my previous message the Constitution set
the direction and the law set the details.
Nova Roma need more laws. Magistrates involvement proposing laws and
the citizens right to vote represent the health of the Republic.
Sometime our lack of laws created during the time many debates and
for many times the rigid form of our Constitution blocked possible
good ways of development.
Through these 10 rogationes a very good opportunity is created as:
- magistrates to propose laws in order to develop what is necessary
to be developed.
- citizens to vote these laws and through their opinion to effective
put in practice their right as political body.

If magistrates create bad laws, vote against them. If they create
good laws, sustain them. Citizens will decide which the course of
action is. But don't deny the magistrates right to present laws
because one of the reason they were elected is exactly that.

Rogationes Moravia Iulia offer to the citizens the future right to
decide voting the proposed laws.
Don't forget that comitia, the supreme assemblies of Roman citizens,
were the legislative power of the Roman state.

VALETE,
IVL SABINVS

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, Titus Flavius Aquila
<titus.aquila@ ...> wrote:

> You have stated:
>
> In the tribunes case it seems that the plebeian order don't want a
reduction of their number.
>
> Ok. Consuls understood that and the rogatio was modified. There is
not any reduction at this time.
>  
> So what is the big problem in keeping the constitution for the
Tribunus Plebis as it is ?
> You have made the first step, let's take the second step as well.
>
> "Tribuni Plebis (Tribune of the Plebs). Five tribunes of the plebs
shall be elected by the comitia plebis tributa to serve a term
lasting one year."
>  
> Optime vale
> Titus Flavius Aquila


Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59040 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: 10 abrogationes.
Why not let the people decide?  How is changing the law unconstitutional?

Valete:

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus

On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 1:49 PM, Titus Flavius Aquila <titus.aquila@...> wrote:

Salve Consul Sabinus,
 
I am not convinced and my concerns remain as stated.
 
If you talk to Consul Piscinus then please make it very clear to him, that under these circumstances I do not have
any other option then to invoke intercessio (veto).
 
Either the 5 tribunes remain in the constitution as stated
 
"Tribuni Plebis (Tribune of the Plebs). Five tribunes of the plebs shall be elected by the comitia plebis tributa to serve a term lasting one year."
 
or I will veto.
 
Optime vale
Titus Flavius Aquila



Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59041 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: When no censors are in office (Correction)
---Pompeia Minucia Strabo Gn Equitio Marino Quiribitbus S.P.D.

In rereading my post below about another curiosity, I see I made an
error when discussing our former Censor's position, which I'd like to
correct.

I wrote:

What I'm reading is 'the more historical, the better for NR'. And by
your desired, more historical plan, which I'm happy is not being
proposed, the censors should be in office in NR for only 18 months
every 5 years, with an even longer interim where issues that only
Censors can address will remain dormant

Clarification and apology : Marinus would like to see an 18-month
service of Censors, but elected every two years, not five. This in
fact, is more desirable than what is currently proposed.

My basic position on this proposal, though, remains altered:

If we are going to *put teeth* on the authority of the Censors in
terms of their nota powers, and these proposed powers do reflect
history, the Censors should be in office yearly in NR to review
notae. Conversely, the republic should not have to wait so long for
Censors to be in office if there is a citizen running about creating
meyhem, disrupting NR, making life unpleasant for other citizens,
these being grounds for timely notariety.

And there is nothing practical the Consuls and Praetors can do in the
interim when the Censors are out of office.

Historical precedent must be tempered by reason and a careful
examination of what is appropriate for the growth and wellbring of 21
Century NR.

Valete
Pompeia





In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "pompeia_minucia_tiberia"
<pompeia_minucia_tiberia@...> wrote:
>
> --Pompeia Minucia Strabo Gn. Equitio Marino S.P.D.
>
> It seems you are confused.
>
> The purpose of this thread was not to solicit education on the
circles
> and sticks of punitive law vs Censors' Notae. I am well aware, being
> here as long as you have, that judicial/punitive law and notae
(which
> can also be punitive in nature, really) are like apples and oranges.
>
> To the nittygritty:
>
>
> When another Senator posted a concern to the ML in general
regarding
> how matters regarding notae would be addressed in the absence of
> Censors in a given year, you volunteered a response stating that the
> Consuls and Praetors could address these matters by existing law.
>
> And again, for the third time, I ask you: by which existing law(s)
> would the Consuls and Praetors address this? All the Consuls and
> Praetors currently have are judicial/punitive laws...in other words,
> they cannot be helpful in the absence of Censors in most if not all
> instances.
>
> This leads me back to my initial take on this. This hadn't been
> thought of when the proposal was being written, and I guess 'We'll
> worry about that some other time'
>
> But in response, you insisted that hey, this isn't what you meant at
> all...Well, just what do you mean?
>
> I hope I have at least clarified for you the chronology of what was
> discussed when and who brought what up, Marine.
>
>
> Anyway, to digress a bit, you say you are not defending this
proposal,
> only trying to explain it by saying this or that happened in
antiquity:
>
> When I said ,after having interpreted the language of the new
> proposal, that it could be upwards of two years before a citizen
notae
> is rescinded, rendering that citizen unable to vote or run for
office
> with limited to nothing that can be done about it ....you respond
> (from below) with:
>
> "Yes. This is also as things were in antiquity."
>
> And if this happens too often, Marine, do you think people are going
> to hang around NR? All to glorify history? Most people who lose
these
> kinds of privileges are at least granted a trial, in or out of NR.
> That or they are deceased and lose them that way.(And again, I know
> the difference between a nota and court system)
>
> What I'm reading is 'the more historical, the better for NR'. And by
> your desired, more historical plan, which I'm happy is not being
> proposed, the censors should be in office in NR for only 18 months
> every 5 years, with an even longer interim where issues that only
> Censors can address will remain dormant.
>
> Historical precedent is a noble goal....enslavement to it is not
> appropriate, and it will ultimately turn people off, even the
> religious people will go offer someplace else...they will be so
tired
> of the historical beurocracy.
>
>
> I'll end on a comedic note. We were discussing the proposal as
> potentially contributing growth to the 51 Century, Urban Tribes and
Socci
>
> You responded (from below):
>
> " Only if we get two censors who are determined to use the nota in
ways
> it has never before been applied in Nova Roma. The citizens can
> prevent that simply by paying attention in their voting."
>
> That statement, Marine, from a former election staff perspective,
is
> extremely entertaining. The people can pay as much attention as
they
> like to the election of Censors, or anyone else. The fact remains,
> that almost half of their decisions to elect our highest magistrates
> are decided by lot... And I am not overly hopeful that this ratio
will
> change much because of the sequential voting being stopped.
>
> >
> Pompeia
>
>
>
>
> - In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@>
wrote:
> >
> > Salve Tiberia Consularis,
> >
> > pompeia_minucia_tiberia <pompeia_minucia_tiberia@> writes:
> >
> > > ---Pompeia Minucia Equitio Marino sal:
> > >
> > > In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@>
> > > wrote:
> > >>
> > >> [...]
> > >>
> > >> What I meant is that the praetors and consuls can address
> > > wrongdoing
> > >> using the existing laws.
> > >
> > > Pompeia: And I ask you again........which existing laws?
> >
> > The Lex Salicia Poenalis for most cases of wrongdoing.
> >
> > > Notae are censorial admonitions, and they
> > >> exist outside the scope of punitive law.
> > >
> > > Pompeia: Which is my point *exactly*. Punitive law cannot be
used
> > > to undo a nota, nor pursue one.
> >
> > That's correct. I think you and I are in complete agreement on
this.
> > I don't know why you keep addressing it.
> >
> > > Pompeia: Meaning, for NR that,.... under this new proposal we
have
> > > two potential problems for the Republic and her citizens:
> > >
> > > 1)When a nota is badly needed there will be no Censors to issue
it in
> > > their absent years.
> >
> > Yes, that is true. It was also true in antiquity, and for much
longer
> > periods of time. Censors were in office for only 18 months out
of
> > every five years. Instead, what Consul Moravius is proposing is
to
> > have censors in office for 12 months out of every 24.
> >
> > > 2) And/or, it could be upwards of two years that an individual
> > > remains notarized, and this, in the worst case scenerio, means
not
> > > being able to run for office or vote, with next-to-no reliable
> > > recourse, for a rather lengthy period of time.
> >
> > Yes. This is also as things were in antiquity.
> >
> > > And, no, we can't appeal a 'nota' through our trial system.
> >
> > That's correct. There is no appeal. Only censors can rescind a
nota.
> >
> > [...]
> > > Pompeia: ...with the added potential consequences that arise
from
> > > the Censors not being in office at a time when they are needed.
If
> > > you are going to stiffen up the nota language, the Censors
should be
> > > around all the time.
> >
> > Or at least most of the time. I've been trying to explain
Consul
> > Moravius' proposal, not endorse it. What I had proposed to him
was to
> > have censors serve 18 month terms as in antiquity, but be
elected
> > every two years. However, he decided that was too long, so he
wrote
> > the legislation that you see. It is, as are so many things, a
> > compromise.
> >
> > > I see this proposal as having historical elements, but I also
see
> > > some of this proposal as contributing great *growth*. In what
areas?
> > > The 51 Century, the Urban Tribes, and the Socci.
> >
> > Only if we get two censors who are determined to use the nota in
ways
> > it has never before been applied in Nova Roma. Only if we get two
> censors who are determined to use the nota in ways
> it has never before been applied in Nova Roma. The citizens can
> prevent that simply by paying attention in their voting.
>
> > Vale,
> >
> > CN-EQVIT-MARINVS
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59042 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: 10 abrogationes.
Cn. Iulius Caesar T. Flavio Aquilae sal.

Maybe my calculations are wrong, but I have a feeling you may have
talked yourself out of time for a veto.

The proposed legislation was published more than 72 hours ago. Under
section II of the Lex Labiena de intercessione you only have 72
hours "of the announcement of the item or action to be vetoed" - in
other words from when it is made public.

Then again maybe I am mistaken in my math.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Titus Flavius Aquila
<titus.aquila@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Consul Sabinus,
>
> I am not convinced and my concerns remain as stated.
>
> If you talk to Consul Piscinus then please make it very clear to
him, that under these circumstances I do not have
> any other option then to invoke intercessio (veto).
>
> Either the 5 tribunes remain in the constitution as stated
>
> "Tribuni Plebis (Tribune of the Plebs). Five tribunes of the plebs
shall be elected by the comitia plebis tributa to serve a term
lasting one year."
>
> or I will veto.
>
> Optime vale
> Titus Flavius Aquila
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59043 From: Lucia Livia Plauta Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: 10 abrogationes.
Salvete omnes,

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "David Kling (Modianus)"
<tau.athanasios@...> wrote:
>
> Why not let the people decide? How is changing the law
unconstitutional?
>
Exactly my thoughts. That's why I have repeatedly warned my colleague
Aquila that if he issues intercessio I will veto it.

Optime valete,
L. Livia Plauta


> Valete:
>
> Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus
>
> On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 1:49 PM, Titus Flavius Aquila <titus.aquila@...
> > wrote:
>
> > Salve Consul Sabinus,
> >
> > I am not convinced and my concerns remain as stated.
> >
> > If you talk to Consul Piscinus then please make it very clear to
him, that
> > under these circumstances I do not have
> > any other option then to invoke intercessio (veto).
> >
> > Either the 5 tribunes remain in the constitution as stated
> >
> > "Tribuni Plebis (Tribune of the Plebs). Five tribunes of the
plebs shall
> > be elected by the comitia plebis tributa to serve a term lasting
one year."
> >
> > or I will veto.
> >
> > Optime vale
> > Titus Flavius Aquila
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59044 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: 10 abrogationes.
---Salve Gn Iulius Caesar, Salvete Omnes:

Regarding the Tribune intercessios:

Just for the sake of talking law here. My take:

The consitutional language does default the timeframe for a Tribune
Intercessio, as by comitia law. And this can default back to the Lex
Labiena for most things, which is 72 hours from the announcement, for
sure.

But the Lex Fabia Ratione Comitia Centuriatorum (I think that's the
right spelling) is the newer law and it could be also argued, by the
constitution, to be the prevailing law of the two, * in this
circumstance of Comitia Centuriata elections*, and its language
states that 'those constitutionally empowered to do so' may pronounce
intercessio during the contio. To me the Tribunes are not excluded.

Just my two cents,...now I'm going shopping!

Pompeia



In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gnaeus Iulius Caesar"
<gn_iulius_caesar@...> wrote:
>
> Cn. Iulius Caesar T. Flavio Aquilae sal.
>
> Maybe my calculations are wrong, but I have a feeling you may have
> talked yourself out of time for a veto.
>
> The proposed legislation was published more than 72 hours ago.
Under
> section II of the Lex Labiena de intercessione you only have 72
> hours "of the announcement of the item or action to be vetoed" - in
> other words from when it is made public.
>
> Then again maybe I am mistaken in my math.
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Titus Flavius Aquila
> <titus.aquila@> wrote:
> >
> > Salve Consul Sabinus,
> >
> > I am not convinced and my concerns remain as stated.
> >
> > If you talk to Consul Piscinus then please make it very clear to
> him, that under these circumstances I do not have
> > any other option then to invoke intercessio (veto).
> >
> > Either the 5 tribunes remain in the constitution as stated
> >
> > "Tribuni Plebis (Tribune of the Plebs). Five tribunes of the
plebs
> shall be elected by the comitia plebis tributa to serve a term
> lasting one year."
> >
> > or I will veto.
> >
> > Optime vale
> > Titus Flavius Aquila
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59045 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Re: 10 abrogationes.
Salve Pompeia.

Depends on whether we treat this as an open ended writ of authority to veto,
or a statement of clarification that a veto can be used during a contio to
clear up any doubts, but with the understanding that any veto used in contio
is still subject to the 72 hour rule. I tend to think that is the case,
rather than an open writ, for the open writ interpretation would strike down
a specific law. It is held to be the case in interpretation that a general
law can never over rule a specific law, even if the specific law is an
earlier one. On the other hand, others do cleave to the earlier and later
rule on interpretation. Like much in Nova Roman law, there is I suspect no
definitive clear cut answer. Shall we toss a coin? <g>

Coincidentally I too am now going shopping

Vale bene
Caesar

From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 1:26 PM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: 10 abrogationes.


---Salve Gn Iulius Caesar, Salvete Omnes:

Regarding the Tribune intercessios:

Just for the sake of talking law here. My take:
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59046 From: Titus Flavius Aquila Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Lex Moravia Iulia
Salvete Plebeians,
 
I just have been informed that I have passed already the deadline to pronounce intercessio .
 
I thought that I would have the full time of the contio.It does not seem to be the case.
 
I was working in the background on a compromise and thus might have missed the deadline. Learning lesson, do not go for
compromises, Veto right away.
 
I have also been informed that Tribuna L.Plauta would have stated her veto against mine , thus making the veto null and void.
 
alea iacta est, then you the people will have to decide.
 
Optime valete
Titus Flavius Aquila
Tribunus Plebis Nova Roma

Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59047 From: Lyn Dowling Date: 2008-11-11
Subject: Gaius Julius Caesar Octavianus Augustus, Packaged?
Attachments :
    Salvete, Quirites 
     
    Do you think this looks like Augustus?
     
    valete,
    L. Aemilia
     
    From the Bulgarian News Agency:

    Roman emperor head discovered in a package!

    Updated on: 10.11.2008, 17:55

    Published on: 10.11.2008, 16:57

    Author: Diana Stoykova

    The marble head of a statue of a Roman emperor was delivered in the National History Museum today from "Sofia Airport - Customs".

    The head, most probably representing Octavian August, was found in a package sent from Haskovo to Western Europe.

    It was part of a sculpture or a bust of the famous Roman emperor who conquered Cleopatra and Mark Antony.

    According to NHM's director Bozhidar Dimitrov this is a piece of art with excellent qualities and the work of a master, probably dating back from I c. A.C.

    "Findings of such a magnitude arrive once every 25 years", remarks Dimitrov.

     

    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59048 From: Publius Memmius Albucius Date: 2008-11-11
    Subject: Re: Lex Moravia Iulia and time for veto
    Omnibus s.d.

    Just as a matter of neutral and legal information for all our cives,
    Lex Labiena de intercessione states:

    "II. A tribunus plebis may use intercessio by making an official
    announcement to at least one of Nova Roma's main communications fora
    (as defined by the Constitution) within 72 hours of the announcement
    of the item or action to be vetoed."

    So, if one tribune, for ex. here Hon. Flavius, has intended to veto
    the convening of the CC and/or the CPT, as Consul Moravius has called
    them on Fr. 5th Nov. 5:58 and 6:04 pm, it is too late now since
    yesterday Monday 10th 5:59 and 6:05.

    But, as naturally tribunes sure keep it in mind, they can veto *any
    assembly or magisterial act* (convening edict or an other *act*) from
    the moment, naturally they are informed of it (thus the notification
    to the tribunes of every magisterial act are important).

    So our tribunes are still fully allowed to veto, for example, the
    current studied leges :
    - once the vote is over and the results proclaimed, either of the CC,
    or of the CPT;
    - for the CC laws, the inscription of the Senate agenda if the voted
    law, which must be approved by the senate ;
    - idem after the Senate vote, once its results is known;
    - last, when the laws are to be written into our Tabularium.


    Valete omnes,


    P. Memmius Albucius
    former tribune























    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Titus Flavius Aquila
    <titus.aquila@...> wrote:
    >
    > Salvete Plebeians,
    >
    > I just have been informed that I have passed already the deadline
    to pronounce intercessio .
    >
    > I thought that I would have the full time of the contio.It does not
    seem to be the case.
    >
    > I was working in the background on a compromise and thus might have
    missed the deadline. Learning lesson, do not go for
    > compromises, Veto right away.
    >
    > I have also been informed that Tribuna L.Plauta would have stated
    her veto against mine , thus making the veto null and void.
    >
    > alea iacta est, then you the people will have to decide.
    >
    > Optime valete
    > Titus Flavius Aquila
    > Tribunus Plebis Nova Roma
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59049 From: Lyn Dowling Date: 2008-11-11
    Subject: Roman banquet?

    From the Atlanta Journal-Constitution

    Meal yields side of Roman history

    By John Kessler

    The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

    Sunday, November 09, 2008

    “Welcome to our orgy!” a jubilant Deborah Duchon called out to the small crowd that gathered Saturday afternoon around a crackling fire in the pergola at the Woodland Gardens nature preserve in Decatur.

    Duchon encouraged all to partake of the ample mead, pomegranate wine and ale set on the table, noting, “Romans drank more alcohol than water because the water was so polluted.”

    Guests crowded around the table to help themselves to drink as well as mysterious green balls of a substance called “moretum,” rusks of bread dripping with honey and olive oil, and meat stewed with dried fruits.

    This seeming bacchanal, advertised as “The Roman Orgy,” was, in fact, a meeting of the Culinary Historians of Atlanta —- a casual group of good cooks and history buffs who see all of recorded human endeavor as a fine excuse for a covered dish washed down with a history lesson.

    Duchon —- a nutritional anthropologist and author of a forthcoming cultural history of the tomato —- is most widely known as a frequent guest on the Food Network TV show “Good Eats” with Alton Brown.

    She began the group with friends, neighbors and fans who shared her passion for food history. The previous meeting featured a cultural history of pizza and featured pies made by Atlanta pizza guru Jeff Varasano.

    To prepare for Saturday’s event, members read e-mailed handouts on Roman farming and cooking, histories of Roman feasts, and the foods of Roman Britain. They were also given historical recipes to explore, if they wanted to.

    Not all so chose.

    “I’m Peggy Miller, and I brought a broccoli casserole,” said one attendee as they went around the room and explained their dishes. Everyone laughed.

    “It’s delicious,” said Duchon, who promptly found broccoli mentioned in a historical Roman text.

    The moretum turned out to be a tasty herb pesto of sorts. And the rosemary-dusted almonds that tasted so very Roman to the assembled guests? From Trader Joe’s.

    But if the food was occasionally an earnest approximation, the history lesson was the real deal.

    Roger Dickerson of Marietta, who was tasked with researching the foods of a lavish Roman bacchanal, delivered a long, jaw-dropping presentation on the Cena Trimalchionis. This fictional meal described in the “Satyricon” was a parody of excess and included rabbits with wings attached to look like the flying horse Pegasus, a boar stuffed with live birds that flew out of its cavity, and a cake molded in the form of the god Priapus (look it up).

    The culinary historians listened intently to every detail, thoughtfully chewing their broccoli casserole.

    For more information, go to: culinaryhistoriansofatlanta.blogspot.com.

    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59050 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2008-11-11
    Subject: Re: Lex Moravia Iulia and time for veto
    Cn. Iulius Caesar P. Memmio Albucio sal.

    It might be helpful to explain to people the legal grounds that
    supports a Tribune's right's to veto "when the laws are to be written
    into our Tabularium".


    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Publius Memmius Albucius"
    <albucius_aoe@...> wrote:
    >
    > Omnibus s.d.
    >
    > Just as a matter of neutral and legal information for all our cives,
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59051 From: Complutensis Date: 2008-11-11
    Subject: Re: Lex Moravia Iulia and time for veto

    Salvete

     

    Since the draft of the Lex was published until today the Consuls have made some changes in the draft.

     

    IfI amnot in mistake  I think that the 72 hours run from the last modification made in the draft. (yesterday)

     

    Valete

     

    M·CVR·COMPLVTENSIS

    Former Tribunus Plebis

    -----Mensaje original-----
    De:
    Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com] En nombre de Publius Memmius Albucius
    Enviado el: martes, 11 de noviembre de 2008 23:00
    Para:
    Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    Asunto: [Nova-Roma] Re: Lex Moravia Iulia and time for veto

     

    Omnibus s.d.

    Just as a matter of neutral and legal information for all our cives,
    Lex Labiena de intercessione states:

    "II. A tribunus plebis may use intercessio by making an official
    announcement to at least one of Nova Roma's main communications fora
    (as defined by the Constitution) within 72 hours of the announcement
    of the item or action to be vetoed."

    So, if one tribune, for ex. here Hon. Flavius, has intended to veto
    the convening of the CC and/or the CPT, as Consul Moravius has called
    them on Fr. 5th Nov. 5:58 and 6:04 pm, it is too late now since
    yesterday Monday 10th 5:59 and 6:05.

    But, as naturally tribunes sure keep it in mind, they can veto *any
    assembly or magisterial act* (convening edict or an other *act*) from
    the moment, naturally they are informed of it (thus the notification
    to the tribunes of every magisterial act are important).

    So our tribunes are still fully allowed to veto, for example, the
    current studied leges :
    - once the vote is over and the results proclaimed, either of the CC,
    or of the CPT;
    - for the CC laws, the inscription of the Senate agenda if the voted
    law, which must be approved by the senate ;
    - idem after the Senate vote, once its results is known;
    - last, when the laws are to be written into our Tabularium.

    Valete omnes,

    P. Memmius Albucius
    former tribune

    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com,
    Titus Flavius Aquila
    <titus.aquila@ ...> wrote:

    >
    > Salvete Plebeians,
    >
    > I just have been informed that I have passed already the deadline
    to pronounce intercessio .
    >
    > I thought that I would have the full time of the contio.It does not
    seem to be the case.
    >
    > I was working in the background on a compromise and thus might have
    missed the deadline. Learning lesson, do not go for
    > compromises, Veto right away.
    >
    > I have also been informed that Tribuna L.Plauta would have stated
    her veto against mine , thus making the veto null and void.
    >
    > alea iacta est, then you the people will have to decide.
    >
    > Optime valete
    > Titus Flavius Aquila
    > Tribunus Plebis Nova Roma
    >

    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59052 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2008-11-11
    Subject: Re: Lex Moravia Iulia and time for veto
    Cn. Iulius Caesar M. Curiatio Complutensi sal.

    I am not so sure you are correct. Another grey zone I think. Does the
    proposed lex become a "new" lex and thus a new action - thus
    resetting the clock? Possibly, but if the action a tribune wishes to
    veto has not be changed in any such amendment I don't see how the
    clock is reset. If the part in dispute remains unaltered and say only
    some grammar, spelling, or punctuation were changed does the clock
    reset too? Does it reset if any change of a legal rather than
    cosmetic nature is made? Or, does it only reset when the part of the
    law in question which is under threat of veto changes?

    Which Nova Roman legal sources are you using to support your position?


    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Complutensis" <complutensis@...>
    wrote:
    >
    > Salvete
    >
    >
    >
    > Since the draft of the Lex was published until today the Consuls
    have made
    > some changes in the draft.
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59053 From: Gnaeus Caelius Ahenobarbus Date: 2008-11-11
    Subject: Re: Roman banquet?
    Caelius omnibus s.p.d.

    >This seeming bacchanal, advertised as “The Roman Orgy,”

        Ridiculous. Was everyone having sex on the tables? Did they also have slaves feeding them and did they vomit after every course?

        I absolutely hate these stereotypes of Rome.

    --
    Gnaeus Caelius Ahenobarbus
    Aedilis Oppidi, Oppidum Fluminis Gilae, America Austroccidentalis
    Accensus, cos. M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus et T. Iulius Sabinus
    http://becomingnewthroughtheold.blogspot.com


    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59054 From: Publius Memmius Albucius Date: 2008-11-11
    Subject: Re: Lex Moravia Iulia and time for veto
    Salve Caesar !

    It is just a basic application of a general principle of Law, that our
    Ancients used, as we still in our current world: a rule cannot apply
    until it is not duly brought to the information of the concerned people
    and "labellized" by the State as in force.

    For a general act, this labellization is given by the publication in
    the Tabularium (for our current 'macro' national states, official
    registers fulfills the same function).

    For an individual act (for example, authorizing or forbidding s.o. to
    do smthg), it must be also notified to the concerned individuals.

    Vale Caesar,


    P. Memmius Albucius




    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gnaeus Iulius Caesar"
    <gn_iulius_caesar@...> wrote:
    >
    > Cn. Iulius Caesar P. Memmio Albucio sal.
    >
    > It might be helpful to explain to people the legal grounds that
    > supports a Tribune's right's to veto "when the laws are to be written
    > into our Tabularium".
    >
    >
    > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Publius Memmius Albucius"
    > <albucius_aoe@> wrote:
    > >
    > > Omnibus s.d.
    > >
    > > Just as a matter of neutral and legal information for all our cives,
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59055 From: Publius Memmius Albucius Date: 2008-11-11
    Subject: Re: Lex Moravia Iulia and time for veto
    Complutensi Praetori s.d.


    You are fully right, Praetor: from the moment the presiding
    magistrate of a comitia, where laws are to be voted, brings
    modifications in a draft law text, the first case veto time (the 72
    hours) re-start.

    Even if the modification just concerns a ",", this rule is applicable.

    It can be seen as hard, but in fact, from the moment that the
    presiding magistrate is open to the discussion, there are no more
    difficulties, for (s-)he would not probably be opposed that the
    tribunes use the whole range of their powers.

    Vale bene Complutensis,


    Albucius



    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Complutensis" <complutensis@...>
    wrote:
    >
    > Salvete
    >
    >
    >
    > Since the draft of the Lex was published until today the Consuls
    have made
    > some changes in the draft.
    >
    >
    >
    > IfI amnot in mistake I think that the 72 hours run from the last
    > modification made in the draft. (yesterday)
    >
    >
    >
    > Valete
    >
    >
    >
    > M·CVR·COMPLVTENSIS
    >
    > Former Tribunus Plebis
    >
    > -----Mensaje original-----
    > De: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com] En
    nombre
    > de Publius Memmius Albucius
    > Enviado el: martes, 11 de noviembre de 2008 23:00
    > Para: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    > Asunto: [Nova-Roma] Re: Lex Moravia Iulia and time for veto
    >
    >
    >
    > Omnibus s.d.
    >
    > Just as a matter of neutral and legal information for all our
    cives,
    > Lex Labiena de intercessione states:
    >
    > "II. A tribunus plebis may use intercessio by making an official
    > announcement to at least one of Nova Roma's main communications
    fora
    > (as defined by the Constitution) within 72 hours of the
    announcement
    > of the item or action to be vetoed."
    >
    > So, if one tribune, for ex. here Hon. Flavius, has intended to veto
    > the convening of the CC and/or the CPT, as Consul Moravius has
    called
    > them on Fr. 5th Nov. 5:58 and 6:04 pm, it is too late now since
    > yesterday Monday 10th 5:59 and 6:05.
    >
    > But, as naturally tribunes sure keep it in mind, they can veto *any
    > assembly or magisterial act* (convening edict or an other *act*)
    from
    > the moment, naturally they are informed of it (thus the
    notification
    > to the tribunes of every magisterial act are important).
    >
    > So our tribunes are still fully allowed to veto, for example, the
    > current studied leges :
    > - once the vote is over and the results proclaimed, either of the
    CC,
    > or of the CPT;
    > - for the CC laws, the inscription of the Senate agenda if the
    voted
    > law, which must be approved by the senate ;
    > - idem after the Senate vote, once its results is known;
    > - last, when the laws are to be written into our Tabularium.
    >
    > Valete omnes,
    >
    > P. Memmius Albucius
    > former tribune
    >
    > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou <mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>
    ps.com,
    > Titus Flavius Aquila
    > <titus.aquila@> wrote:
    > >
    > > Salvete Plebeians,
    > >
    > > I just have been informed that I have passed already the
    deadline
    > to pronounce intercessio .
    > >
    > > I thought that I would have the full time of the contio.It does
    not
    > seem to be the case.
    > >
    > > I was working in the background on a compromise and thus might
    have
    > missed the deadline. Learning lesson, do not go for
    > > compromises, Veto right away.
    > >
    > > I have also been informed that Tribuna L.Plauta would have stated
    > her veto against mine , thus making the veto null and void.
    > >
    > > alea iacta est, then you the people will have to decide.
    > >
    > > Optime valete
    > > Titus Flavius Aquila
    > > Tribunus Plebis Nova Roma
    > >
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59056 From: Lyn Dowling Date: 2008-11-11
    Subject: Re: Roman banquet?
    Ave, Ahenobarbe!
     
    I could not agree more. It seems that a simple meal such as Augustus seems to have favored -- fish, good cheese, olives, figs and not too much wine -- would be far too boring for these "historians."
     
    These people watch too many movies and read too few books.
     
    Vale,
    L. Aemilia

    From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gnaeus Caelius Ahenobarbus
    Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 5:44 PM
    To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Roman banquet?

    Caelius omnibus s.p.d.

    >This seeming bacchanal, advertised as “The Roman
    Orgy,”

        Ridiculous. Was everyone having sex on the tables? Did they also have slaves feeding them and did they vomit after every course?

        I absolutely hate these stereotypes of Rome.

    --
    Gnaeus Caelius Ahenobarbus
    Aedilis Oppidi, Oppidum Fluminis Gilae, America Austroccidentalis
    Accensus, cos. M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus et T. Iulius Sabinus
    http://becomingnewt hroughtheold. blogspot. com


    No virus found in this incoming message.
    Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
    Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.1/1781 - Release Date: 11/11/2008 8:59 AM

    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59057 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2008-11-11
    Subject: Re: 10 abrogationes.
    ---Salve again Caesar, Salvete Omnes:

    In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gnaeus Iulius Caesar"
    <gn_iulius_caesar@...> wrote:

    (regarding Tribune veto particulars)
    >
    > [...]
    >
    > Depends on whether we treat this as an open ended writ of authority
    to veto,
    > or a statement of clarification that a veto can be used during a
    contio to
    > clear up any doubts, but with the understanding that any veto used
    in contio
    > is still subject to the 72 hour rule. I tend to think that is the
    case,
    > rather than an open writ, for the open writ interpretation would
    strike down
    > a specific law. It is held to be the case in interpretation that a
    general
    > law can never over rule a specific law, even if the specific law is
    an
    > earlier one. On the other hand, others do cleave to the earlier and
    later
    > rule on interpretation. Like much in Nova Roman law, there is I
    suspect no
    > definitive clear cut answer. Shall we toss a coin? <g>

    Pompeia: Now we could, couldn't we? But nope :>) Done enough of
    that, thanks! :>)
    It was just my take on I B of the constitution on 'legal precedence'
    clause: "
    Should a law passed by one of the comitia contradict one passed by
    another or the same comitia without explicitly superseding that law,
    the most recent law shall take precedence"

    In any case, I concede that one Tribune can still block another's
    veto, which I guess is what the situation is now.

    I always tried to avoid these messes when I was Consul. I would
    crosscopy my Senate calls, comitia calls, and any other major edicts
    to the Tribune's address, so that if they had a beef, I would hear
    about it 'sooner' than later, and we could address any gray areas,
    hopefully beforehand.

    I think we had a closer collaboration too. We had a magistrate's
    list at one time....is this being used anymore?



    Valete

    Pompeia







    >
    > Coincidentally I too am now going shopping
    >
    > Vale bene
    > Caesar
    >
    > From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia
    > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 1:26 PM
    > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: 10 abrogationes.
    >
    >
    > ---Salve Gn Iulius Caesar, Salvete Omnes:
    >
    > Regarding the Tribune intercessios:
    >
    > Just for the sake of talking law here. My take:
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59058 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2008-11-11
    Subject: Re: Lex Moravia Iulia and time for veto
    Cn. Iulius Caesar P. Memmio Albucio sal.

    In some countries a law passes into effect when it is signed by a
    President or receives Royal Assent. There actually is no requirement,
    that I know of, under Nova Roman law for a law to be published in the
    Tabularium before it has actual effect. Here in Nova Roma once the
    people, or in the case of a constitutional amendment the people and
    then senate, pass the measure it takes effect on being passed.

    I suggest that you are stretching the reach of the veto too far. I
    still think, in the absence of any Nova Roman legal source, that the
    72 hour clock ticks only from the moment it actually is passed by the
    people or senate. A grey zone at best and can be argued either way,
    but in these cases wouldn't it be wiser to err on the side of
    interpretive caution?


    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Publius Memmius Albucius"
    <albucius_aoe@...> wrote:
    >
    > Salve Caesar !
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59059 From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com Date: 2008-11-11
    Subject: Online Resources for Classics Study and Research, 11/12/2008, 12:00
    Reminder from:   Nova-Roma Yahoo! Group
     
    Title:   Online Resources for Classics Study and Research
     
    Date:   Wednesday November 12, 2008
    Time:   All Day
    Repeats:   This event repeats every month.
    Notes:   An extensive list of online resources for Classics study is available on our website: http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Library_(Nova_Roma)

     
    Copyright © 2008  Yahoo! Inc. All Rights Reserved | Terms of Service | Privacy Policy
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59060 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2008-11-11
    Subject: Re: Lex Moravia Iulia and time for veto
    Cn. Iulius Caesar P. Memmio Albucio sal.

    Says who? says what Nova Roman law or part of the constitution? What
    rule?

    Unless you can cite a source then he isn't right, and there is no rule
    and to say such is disengenious. Now you can argue that his "opinion"
    is correct or that it is a "custom" rather than a rule, but you still
    have to provide support for both opinion and custom to make a
    substantive case for your assertions.

    Simply saying something is so doesn't make it so. We seem to have had a
    lot of that sort of thing going on in magisterial circles this year.

    Source material or legal authorities from Nova Roma would be
    appreciated, as we operate under Nova Roman law (or should do).

    Got any?

    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Publius Memmius Albucius"
    <albucius_aoe@...> wrote:
    >
    > Complutensi Praetori s.d.
    >
    >
    > You are fully right, Praetor: from the moment the presiding
    > magistrate of a comitia, where laws are to be voted, brings
    > modifications in a draft law text, the first case veto time (the 72
    > hours) re-start.
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59061 From: Lucia Livia Plauta Date: 2008-11-11
    Subject: Re: Gaius Julius Caesar Octavianus Augustus, Packaged?
    Salve L. Aemilia,
    not really. The hairstyle is the same, but Augustus' face was
    different. This guy actually looks a lot like some present-day Rumanians.
    Anyway I guess the head was a good present for the museum. Now let's
    just hope authorities discover where it was from.

    Optime vale,
    Livia

    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lyn Dowling" <ldowling@...> wrote:
    >
    > Salvete, Quirites
    >
    > Do you think this looks like Augustus?
    >
    > valete,
    > L. Aemilia
    >
    > From the Bulgarian News Agency:
    >
    > Roman emperor head discovered in a package!
    >
    >
    > Updated on: 10.11.2008, 17:55
    >
    > Published on: 10.11.2008, 16:57
    >
    > Author: Diana Stoykova
    >
    > <http://images.ibox.bg/2008/11/10/fgf/256x313.jpg> The marble head
    of a
    > statue of a Roman emperor was delivered in the National History
    Museum today
    > from "Sofia Airport - Customs".
    >
    > The head, most probably representing Octavian August, was found in a
    package
    > sent from Haskovo to Western Europe.
    >
    > It was part of a sculpture or a bust of the famous Roman emperor who
    > conquered Cleopatra and Mark Antony.
    >
    > According to NHM's director Bozhidar Dimitrov this is a piece of art
    with
    > excellent qualities and the work of a master, probably dating back
    from I c.
    > A.C.
    >
    > "Findings of such a magnitude arrive once every 25 years", remarks
    Dimitrov.
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59062 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2008-11-11
    Subject: Re: Lex Moravia Iulia and time for veto
    Salve:

    That is an interesting dilemma.  Is there a new auspices under which the new draft was written, or does it fall under the original auspices.  If it falls under the original then it would seem that a revision doesn't change the veto time.

    Vale;

    Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus  

    On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 5:29 PM, Complutensis <complutensis@...> wrote:

    Salvete

     

    Since the draft of the Lex was published until today the Consuls have made some changes in the draft.

     

    IfI amnot in mistake  I think that the 72 hours run from the last modification made in the draft. (yesterday)

     

    Valete

     

    M·CVR·COMPLVTENSIS


    .


    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59063 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2008-11-11
    Subject: Re: Gaius Julius Caesar Octavianus Augustus, Packaged?
    Q. Valerius Liviae Plautae sal.

    I agree - archaeologists earlier uncovered a "Julius Caesar" head that
    in no way resembled Julius Caesar. Assigning someone famous to an
    otherwise unknown statue is a way to maximalize the discovery.

    bene uale.

    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucia Livia Plauta" <cases@...> wrote:
    >
    > Salve L. Aemilia,
    > not really. The hairstyle is the same, but Augustus' face was
    > different. This guy actually looks a lot like some present-day
    Rumanians.
    > Anyway I guess the head was a good present for the museum. Now let's
    > just hope authorities discover where it was from.
    >
    > Optime vale,
    > Livia
    >
    > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lyn Dowling" <ldowling@> wrote:
    > >
    > > Salvete, Quirites
    > >
    > > Do you think this looks like Augustus?
    > >
    > > valete,
    > > L. Aemilia
    > >
    > > From the Bulgarian News Agency:
    > >
    > > Roman emperor head discovered in a package!
    > >
    > >
    > > Updated on: 10.11.2008, 17:55
    > >
    > > Published on: 10.11.2008, 16:57
    > >
    > > Author: Diana Stoykova
    > >
    > > <http://images.ibox.bg/2008/11/10/fgf/256x313.jpg> The marble head
    > of a
    > > statue of a Roman emperor was delivered in the National History
    > Museum today
    > > from "Sofia Airport - Customs".
    > >
    > > The head, most probably representing Octavian August, was found in a
    > package
    > > sent from Haskovo to Western Europe.
    > >
    > > It was part of a sculpture or a bust of the famous Roman emperor who
    > > conquered Cleopatra and Mark Antony.
    > >
    > > According to NHM's director Bozhidar Dimitrov this is a piece of art
    > with
    > > excellent qualities and the work of a master, probably dating back
    > from I c.
    > > A.C.
    > >
    > > "Findings of such a magnitude arrive once every 25 years", remarks
    > Dimitrov.
    > >
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59064 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2008-11-11
    Subject: Re: Lex Moravia Iulia and time for veto
    Q. Valerius K. Fabio S. D.

    I'm not an augur, but since the bill is different, it would seem to me
    that a new auspices would be taken and everything is reset. It would
    be akin to withdrawing the legislation and then resubmitting it.

    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "David Kling (Modianus)"
    <tau.athanasios@...> wrote:
    >
    > Salve:
    >
    > That is an interesting dilemma. Is there a new auspices under which
    the new
    > draft was written, or does it fall under the original auspices. If
    it falls
    > under the original then it would seem that a revision doesn't change the
    > veto time.
    >
    > Vale;
    >
    > Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus
    >
    > On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 5:29 PM, Complutensis <complutensis@...>wrote:
    >
    > > Salvete
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Since the draft of the Lex was published until today the Consuls
    have made
    > > some changes in the draft.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > IfI amnot in mistake I think that the 72 hours run from the last
    > > modification made in the draft. (yesterday)
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Valete
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > *M·CVR·COMPLVTENSIS*
    > >
    > > .
    > >
    > >
    > >
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59065 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2008-11-11
    Subject: Re: Roman banquet?
    Q. Valerius C. Caelio sal.

    The classical orgy, from the Greek orgi/a (singular: orgion), did not
    involve sex.

    bene uale.

    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Caelius Ahenobarbus
    <cn.caelius@...> wrote:
    >
    > Caelius omnibus s.p.d.
    >
    >
    > >This seeming bacchanal, advertised as "The Roman Orgy,"
    >
    > Ridiculous. Was everyone having sex on the tables? Did they also
    have slaves feeding them and did they vomit after every course?
    >
    > I absolutely hate these stereotypes of Rome.
    >
    > --
    > Gnaeus Caelius Ahenobarbus
    > Aedilis Oppidi, Oppidum Fluminis Gilae, America Austroccidentalis
    > Accensus, cos. M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus et T. Iulius Sabinus
    > http://becomingnewthroughtheold.blogspot.com
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59066 From: Lyn Dowling Date: 2008-11-11
    Subject: Re: Gaius Julius Caesar Octavianus Augustus, Packaged?
    Salve, Livia,
     
    It seems it was some sort of contraband and that a news conference was supposed to have taken place this afternoon, but besides that, nothing. The bust looks more like Sulla than Augustus, and that's saying something.
     
    Optime vale,
    L. Aemilia
     
     


    From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lucia Livia Plauta
    Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 6:46 PM
    To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Gaius Julius Caesar Octavianus Augustus, Packaged?

    Salve L. Aemilia,
    not really. The hairstyle is the same, but Augustus' face was
    different. This guy actually looks a lot like some present-day Rumanians.
    Anyway I guess the head was a good present for the museum. Now let's
    just hope authorities discover where it was from.

    Optime vale,
    Livia

    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, "Lyn Dowling" <ldowling@.. .> wrote:

    >
    > Salvete, Quirites
    >
    > Do you think this looks like Augustus?
    >
    >
    valete,
    > L. Aemilia
    >
    > From the Bulgarian News
    Agency:
    >
    > Roman emperor head discovered in a package!
    >
    >
    > Updated on: 10.11.2008, 17:55
    >
    > Published on:
    10.11.2008, 16:57
    >
    > Author: Diana Stoykova
    >
    >
    <http://images. ibox.bg/2008/ 11/10/fgf/ 256x313.jpg> The marble head
    of a
    > statue of a Roman emperor was delivered in the
    National History
    Museum today
    > from "Sofia Airport - Customs".
    >
    > The head, most probably representing Octavian August, was
    found in a
    package
    > sent from Haskovo to Western Europe.
    >
    > It was part of a sculpture or a bust of the famous Roman emperor
    who
    > conquered Cleopatra and Mark Antony.
    >
    > According to
    NHM's director Bozhidar Dimitrov this is a piece of art
    with
    >
    excellent qualities and the work of a master, probably dating back
    from I c.
    > A.C.
    >
    > "Findings of such a magnitude arrive once every
    25 years", remarks
    Dimitrov.
    >

    No virus found in this incoming message.
    Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
    Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.1/1781 - Release Date: 11/11/2008 8:59 AM

    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59067 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2008-11-11
    Subject: Re: Lex Moravia Iulia and time for veto
    Caeso Fabius Buteo Q. Valerio Poplicolae salutem dicit

    I would agree, but I'm not sure this is how it is or has been done because of how the laws are written -- which I must confess I have not reviewed in depth since I was consul.  The contio period should be a time where laws can be changed, but it also doesn't seem necessary to pronounce intercessio on proposed laws - assuming the calling of the comitia was done according to law.  This could be a source of considerable debate, and I'm not sure I'm up for such.  But it is something to consider. 

    Vale;

    Modianus

    On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 7:02 PM, Q. Valerius Poplicola <catullus.poeta@...> wrote:

    Q. Valerius K. Fabio S. D.

    I'm not an augur, but since the bill is different, it would seem to me
    that a new auspices would be taken and everything is reset. It would
    be akin to withdrawing the legislation and then resubmitting it.




    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59068 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2008-11-11
    Subject: Re: Lex Moravia Iulia and time for veto
    Cn Iulius Caesar C. Fabio Buteoni Modiano sal.

    Interesting dilemma, but a more interesting point you make. In your
    experience what precedent have we followed in the past when making
    alterations? Were fresh auspices requested? My instinct tells me that
    may not always have been the case.

    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "David Kling (Modianus)"
    <tau.athanasios@...> wrote:
    >
    > Salve:
    >
    > That is an interesting dilemma. Is there a new auspices under which
    the new
    > draft was written, or does it fall under the original auspices. If
    it falls
    > under the original then it would seem that a revision doesn't change
    the
    > veto time.
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59069 From: Chantal Gaudiano Date: 2008-11-11
    Subject: Roman banquet?
    Lyn--Thanks for posting that. It sounds tasty. I'd love to try the moretum and the rosemary almonds.

    Vale,

    Paulla Corva Caudialis
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59070 From: Lyn Dowling Date: 2008-11-11
    Subject: Re: Gaius Julius Caesar Octavianus Augustus, Packaged?
    Salve, Q. Valeri,
     
    Again, agreed wholeheartedly. It would be nice to know who those sculptures do represent, though, wouldn't it?
     
    Vale,
    L. Aemilia
    (who thinks that river in France needs to be scoured for the rest of  "Caesar")


    From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Q. Valerius Poplicola
    Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 7:04 PM
    To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Gaius Julius Caesar Octavianus Augustus, Packaged?

    Q. Valerius Liviae Plautae sal.

    I agree - archaeologists earlier uncovered a "Julius Caesar" head that
    in no way resembled Julius Caesar. Assigning someone famous to an
    otherwise unknown statue is a way to maximalize the discovery.

    bene uale.

    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, "Lucia Livia Plauta" <cases@...> wrote:

    >
    > Salve L.
    Aemilia,
    > not really. The hairstyle is the same, but Augustus' face
    was
    > different. This guy actually looks a lot like some
    present-day
    Rumanians.
    > Anyway I guess the head was a good present for
    the museum. Now let's
    > just hope authorities discover where it was
    from.
    >
    > Optime vale,
    > Livia
    >
    > --- In
    href="mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com">Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, "Lyn Dowling" <ldowling@> wrote:
    > >
    > > Salvete,
    Quirites
    > >
    > > Do you think this looks like
    Augustus?
    > >
    > > valete,
    > > L. Aemilia
    > >
    > > From the Bulgarian News Agency:
    > >
    > >
    Roman emperor head discovered in a package!
    > >
    > >
    > > Updated on: 10.11.2008, 17:55
    > >
    > > Published on:
    10.11.2008, 16:57
    > >
    > > Author: Diana Stoykova
    > >
    > > <
    href="http://images.ibox.bg/2008/11/10/fgf/256x313.jpg">http://images. ibox.bg/2008/ 11/10/fgf/ 256x313.jpg> The marble head
    > of a
    > > statue of a Roman emperor was
    delivered in the National History
    > Museum today
    > > from "Sofia
    Airport - Customs".
    > >
    > > The head, most probably
    representing Octavian August, was found in a
    > package
    > > sent
    from Haskovo to Western Europe.
    > >
    > > It was part of a
    sculpture or a bust of the famous Roman emperor who
    > > conquered
    Cleopatra and Mark Antony.
    > >
    > > According to NHM's
    director Bozhidar Dimitrov this is a piece of art
    > with
    > >
    excellent qualities and the work of a master, probably dating back
    > from
    I c.
    > > A.C.
    > >
    > > "Findings of such a magnitude
    arrive once every 25 years", remarks
    > Dimitrov.
    > >
    >

    No virus found in this incoming message.
    Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
    Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.1/1781 - Release Date: 11/11/2008 8:59 AM

    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59071 From: M•IVL•SEVERVS Date: 2008-11-11
    Subject: Re: Gaius Julius Caesar Octavianus Augustus, Packaged?
    Salvete omnes,
     
    I just don't believe for a single second that this gentleman could be Augustus!
     
    Valete,

    M•IVL•SEVERVS

    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59072 From: Gnaeus Caelius Ahenobarbus Date: 2008-11-11
    Subject: Re: Roman banquet?
    Cn. Caelius Ahenobarus Q. Valerio Poplicolae s.p.d.

        It is my guess--and just a guess it is--that neither the person writing that article nor the person holding the event are classical Greeks. They are Americans, and they are using the American connotation of the word. From the article, referring to the person holding the event:

    "Duchon —- a nutritional anthropologist and author of a forthcoming cultural history of the tomato..."

        Not a classical Greek. Not a classicist. May speak ancient Greek, but that is extremely doubtful. So, I stand by my assumption: it is still annoying.
     
    --
    Gnaeus Caelius Ahenobarbus
    Aedilis Oppidi, Oppidum Fluminis Gilae, America Austroccidentalis
    Accensus, cos. M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus et T. Iulius Sabinus
    http://becomingnewthroughtheold.blogspot.com



    From: Q. Valerius Poplicola <catullus.poeta@...>
    To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 4:58:29 PM
    Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Roman banquet?

    Q. Valerius C. Caelio sal.

    The classical orgy, from the Greek orgi/a (singular: orgion), did not
    involve sex.

    bene uale.

    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, Gnaeus Caelius Ahenobarbus
    <cn.caelius@ ...> wrote:

    >
    > Caelius omnibus s.p.d.
    >
    >
    > >This seeming bacchanal, advertised as "The Roman Orgy,"
    >
    > Ridiculous. Was everyone having sex on the tables? Did they also
    have slaves feeding them and did they vomit after every course?
    >
    > I absolutely hate these stereotypes of Rome.
    >
    > --
    > Gnaeus Caelius Ahenobarbus
    > Aedilis Oppidi, Oppidum Fluminis Gilae, America Austroccidentalis
    > Accensus, cos.. M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus et T. Iulius Sabinus
    > http://becomingnewt hroughtheold. blogspot. com
    >


    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59073 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2008-11-11
    Subject: Re: Lex Moravia Iulia and time for veto
    I don't think it was the case.  To my knowledge the changes made were not radical enough -- at least in my opinion -- to warrant new auspices. 

    Modianus

    On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 7:14 PM, Gnaeus Iulius Caesar <gn_iulius_caesar@...> wrote:

    Cn Iulius Caesar C. Fabio Buteoni Modiano sal.

    Interesting dilemma, but a more interesting point you make. In your
    experience what precedent have we followed in the past when making
    alterations? Were fresh auspices requested? My instinct tells me that
    may not always have been the case. 




    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59074 From: Titus Iulius Sabinus Date: 2008-11-11
    Subject: Re: Lex Moravia Iulia and time for veto
    SALVE ET SALVETE!

    My opinion to dilemma:

    Auspices' intent is to find if the Gods approve or not an action, in
    our case to call comitia to order. As time taking auspices is not
    divination they don't seek about what is happen in the future.
    The comitia were called and the Gods approved that.
    That is all: They approved to start.
    How the things are going during the event and possible changes don't
    belong to that approval.

    VALETE,
    IVL SABINVS

    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "David Kling (Modianus)"
    <tau.athanasios@...> wrote:
    >
    > Salve:
    >
    > That is an interesting dilemma. Is there a new auspices under
    which the new
    > draft was written, or does it fall under the original auspices. If
    it falls
    > under the original then it would seem that a revision doesn't
    change the
    > veto time.
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59075 From: Maior Date: 2008-11-11
    Subject: Re: Roman banquet?
    M. Hortensia Gn. Caelio Q. Valerio Ameliaeque spd;
    I agree that is so ridiculous.
    In my area our winter meetings will be convivia ( n.sing:
    convivium) is that the correct word for simple Roman food and
    intellectual conversation?
    I'm rather keen on Epicurean philosophy, here's a stub I was
    working on.
    http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Epicureanism.
    optime valete
    Maior

    Were orgeia celebrated in Greece for Dionysus and Magna Mater? What
    did take place.


    > Cn. Caelius Ahenobarus Q. Valerio Poplicolae s.p.d.
    >
    > It is my guess--and just a guess it is--that neither the
    person writing that article nor the person holding the event are
    classical Greeks. They are Americans, and they are using the
    American connotation of the word. From the article, referring to the
    person holding the event:
    >
    > "Duchon —- a nutritional anthropologist and author of a
    forthcoming cultural
    > history of the tomato..."
    >
    > Not a classical Greek. Not a classicist. May speak ancient
    Greek, but that is extremely doubtful. So, I stand by my assumption:
    it is still annoying.
    >
    > --
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59076 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2008-11-11
    Subject: Re: Lex Moravia Iulia and time for veto
    Salvete:

    Here is a scenario:

    A consul asks an augur to conduct and augury because said consul wants to convene the comitia for elections and maybe a law or two.

    Half way through the contio the consul puts up a law to make auspices unnecessary.  It was not his intention to propose this law when the augury was originally conducted, but was a later addition.

    If the augury was positive initially, then it would seem that the Gods are in favor of the comitia being called which would include a law that would would eliminate augury.

    Are the Gods mystically aware of ANYTHING that will happen during a comitia call?  Do they know what will happen before it happens, and therefore present a favorable or disfavorable sign through the augury? Or are they only aware of the here and now?  If they are only aware of the here and now then the intention at the time of the comitia call is essential.

    Valete:

    Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus

    On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 8:27 PM, Titus Iulius Sabinus <iulius_sabinus@...> wrote:

    SALVE ET SALVETE!

    My opinion to dilemma:

    Auspices' intent is to find if the Gods approve or not an action, in
    our case to call comitia to order. As time taking auspices is not
    divination they don't seek about what is happen in the future.
    The comitia were called and the Gods approved that.
    That is all: They approved to start.
    How the things are going during the event and possible changes don't
    belong to that approval.

    VALETE,
    IVL SABINVS


    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59077 From: Publius Memmius Albucius Date: 2008-11-11
    Subject: Re: Lex Moravia Iulia and time for veto
    Cn. Iulio Caesari s.d.

    This is again the application of general principles of law: when a
    text "T" is modified, it is not, *in absence of contrary explicit
    provisions* (and we have none, here), considered as the same text.

    I had written on the point of the hierarchy of our rules, a couple of
    years before (if I well remember it may be in a discussion with
    Cordus), and the message(s) could interest you, Caesar, specially on
    the relation btw our written rules, our non-written ones and also (if
    I well remember) the nature of interpretation rules.

    On the legal authorities, if you mean about the constitutional
    powers, the complex matter with a Roman republic is that there are
    several powers which, each one, can with legitimacy, produce legal
    rules and "say the law" in case of silence or problem of
    interpretation.

    As long that this question remains in the field of one magistrate or
    assembly, this is not a big problem, for this one is seen, by the
    other powers, as being allowed ruling and interpretating this field
    alone. But when the question concerns a general field, such as the
    relation btw several constitutional powers like here, things are less
    simple.

    This is one of our (Roman state) advantages and defaults at the same
    time: it is an advantage in the fact that we must find a minimal
    common agreement on the way we read our Law in case of silence or
    reading difficulty; it is a default for there is no ultimate "right"
    rule, the consul X being allowed to read the rule this way, the
    censor that way, the praetor in a third, a senator in a 4th, etc..

    Last on the legal authorities, there are, in this complex landscape,
    some voices which must be heard more attentively than others, imho.
    To take the current example, the law-making magistrate's one and the
    possibly vetoing tribune's one. And a third voice cannot be left
    aside, the praetorian one, for the praetors are, ex officio, the
    ones, among all these actors, whose legal interpretation opinion is
    listened to. And when this voice is M. Curiatius Complutensis' one,
    who is one of our best lawyers, it cannot be neglected.

    Vale Caesar.


    P. Memmius Albucius






    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gnaeus Iulius Caesar"
    <gn_iulius_caesar@...> wrote:
    >
    > Cn. Iulius Caesar P. Memmio Albucio sal.
    >
    > Says who? says what Nova Roman law or part of the constitution?
    What
    > rule?
    >
    > Unless you can cite a source then he isn't right, and there is no
    rule
    > and to say such is disengenious. Now you can argue that
    his "opinion"
    > is correct or that it is a "custom" rather than a rule, but you
    still
    > have to provide support for both opinion and custom to make a
    > substantive case for your assertions.
    >
    > Simply saying something is so doesn't make it so. We seem to have
    had a
    > lot of that sort of thing going on in magisterial circles this year.
    >
    > Source material or legal authorities from Nova Roma would be
    > appreciated, as we operate under Nova Roman law (or should do).
    >
    > Got any?
    >
    > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Publius Memmius Albucius"
    > <albucius_aoe@> wrote:
    > >
    > > Complutensi Praetori s.d.
    > >
    > >
    > > You are fully right, Praetor: from the moment the presiding
    > > magistrate of a comitia, where laws are to be voted, brings
    > > modifications in a draft law text, the first case veto time (the
    72
    > > hours) re-start.
    > >
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59078 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2008-11-11
    Subject: Re: Lex Moravia Iulia and time for veto
    Cn. Iulius Caesar P. Memmio Albucio sal.
    In our respublica the highest legal authority is the constitution, except in circumstances of dictatorial edict, and then the chain of authorities as specified in the constitution. The opinions of any one person remain that, opinions. All that counts, currently, is the constitution. Some constantly try to circumvent it, alter it, bend it, and yes at times flagrantly ignore it, but regardless it remains the highest legal authority in non-dictatorial times. The constitution also allows no mechanism for its interpretation. It is as it is.
     
    So the sum total of this matter is that as usual there is no clear answer, least of any authorities - as in legal texts, sections of the constitution, leges etc. - just opinions. Round and round the mulberry bush we go - again. That is why until there is a change in how we do business, vis a vis the constitution, I believe we are best reading it as is and not trying to interpret it any deeper. We certainly should avoid creative interpretation as this always gets us into deep waters either at the time or subsequently.

    Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 6:53 PM
    Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Lex Moravia Iulia and time for veto


    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59079 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2008-11-11
    Subject: Re: Lex Moravia Iulia and time for veto
    ---Pompeia Minucia Strabo Publio Memmio Abucio S.P.D.

    Regarding your appreciated note below:

    If I understand you correctly, a large part, invariably, of
    interpreting the more obscure areas of the legislation, and its
    relationship to other legislations in NR, lies with the magistrates
    assigned to 'administering the law'.

    In the case at hand today, the Tribunes.

    One Tribune has elected to abide by the 72-hour parameter and has not
    recognized intercessio powers beyond this time frame, and another
    Tribune will nullify his veto regardless of timing based on a cited
    lack of necessity to veto. And so they have interpreted and
    administered the law to their satisfaction in their duty to
    administer same.

    As for me, I tend to apply the constitutional language in the "Legal
    Precedence" section in my reasoning, which states that a more recent
    law prevails, and reasonably, I think in our current situation, if
    this more recent, and therefore higher Comitia Centuriata law,
    specific to their election procedures at that, says that Tribunes are
    empowered to pronounce intercessio during a contio, I would expect
    that they would be able to do so, if they see fit, during the entire
    contio, not just the first 72 hours of the contio. But that is me. My
    point is, if there were enough Tribunes in agreement with my
    reasoning or someone else's, this would be 'law' at that time.
    Another administration of Tribunes might think differently.

    Anyway, the matter has been frustrated which to me is unfortunate,
    given my worries expressed in earlier posts, in light of the
    variations on how laws (and necessities) can be interpreted and
    applied from one administration to the next, and still be
    called 'law'.

    Valete








    In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Publius Memmius Albucius"
    <albucius_aoe@...> wrote:
    >
    > Cn. Iulio Caesari s.d.
    >
    > This is again the application of general principles of law: when a
    > text "T" is modified, it is not, *in absence of contrary explicit
    > provisions* (and we have none, here), considered as the same text.
    >
    > I had written on the point of the hierarchy of our rules, a couple
    of
    > years before (if I well remember it may be in a discussion with
    > Cordus), and the message(s) could interest you, Caesar, specially
    on
    > the relation btw our written rules, our non-written ones and also
    (if
    > I well remember) the nature of interpretation rules.
    >
    > On the legal authorities, if you mean about the constitutional
    > powers, the complex matter with a Roman republic is that there are
    > several powers which, each one, can with legitimacy, produce legal
    > rules and "say the law" in case of silence or problem of
    > interpretation.
    >
    > As long that this question remains in the field of one magistrate
    or
    > assembly, this is not a big problem, for this one is seen, by the
    > other powers, as being allowed ruling and interpretating this field
    > alone. But when the question concerns a general field, such as the
    > relation btw several constitutional powers like here, things are
    less
    > simple.
    >
    > This is one of our (Roman state) advantages and defaults at the
    same
    > time: it is an advantage in the fact that we must find a minimal
    > common agreement on the way we read our Law in case of silence or
    > reading difficulty; it is a default for there is no
    ultimate "right"
    > rule, the consul X being allowed to read the rule this way, the
    > censor that way, the praetor in a third, a senator in a 4th, etc..
    >
    > Last on the legal authorities, there are, in this complex
    landscape,
    > some voices which must be heard more attentively than others, imho.
    > To take the current example, the law-making magistrate's one and
    the
    > possibly vetoing tribune's one. And a third voice cannot be left
    > aside, the praetorian one, for the praetors are, ex officio, the
    > ones, among all these actors, whose legal interpretation opinion is
    > listened to. And when this voice is M. Curiatius Complutensis' one,
    > who is one of our best lawyers, it cannot be neglected.
    >
    > Vale Caesar.
    >
    >
    > P. Memmius Albucius
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gnaeus Iulius Caesar"
    > <gn_iulius_caesar@> wrote:
    > >
    > > Cn. Iulius Caesar P. Memmio Albucio sal.
    > >
    > > Says who? says what Nova Roman law or part of the constitution?
    > What
    > > rule?
    > >
    > > Unless you can cite a source then he isn't right, and there is no
    > rule
    > > and to say such is disengenious. Now you can argue that
    > his "opinion"
    > > is correct or that it is a "custom" rather than a rule, but you
    > still
    > > have to provide support for both opinion and custom to make a
    > > substantive case for your assertions.
    > >
    > > Simply saying something is so doesn't make it so. We seem to have
    > had a
    > > lot of that sort of thing going on in magisterial circles this
    year.
    > >
    > > Source material or legal authorities from Nova Roma would be
    > > appreciated, as we operate under Nova Roman law (or should do).
    > >
    > > Got any?
    > >
    > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Publius Memmius Albucius"
    > > <albucius_aoe@> wrote:
    > > >
    > > > Complutensi Praetori s.d.
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > You are fully right, Praetor: from the moment the presiding
    > > > magistrate of a comitia, where laws are to be voted, brings
    > > > modifications in a draft law text, the first case veto time
    (the
    > 72
    > > > hours) re-start.
    > > >
    > >
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59080 From: Publius Memmius Albucius Date: 2008-11-11
    Subject: Auspices comitia and gods'omniscience
    Modiano s.d.

    Just my dime on this interesting "case" that you have proposed to us.

    I see our whole RR as a contract with the Gods. For our divination
    means, it is thus as if our Gods tell us: "Listen, I/We will make you
    aware of my/our will according the elements you bring to me/us. But
    if you cheat, you will support the consequences."

    In the frame of the proposed scenario, I think first that the consul
    must remind the augur that this one, despite her/his whole knowledge,
    will assist him/her, not take the auspices at his/her place.

    If we considered that our gods were, for example, like omnipotentes
    Yahve, and thus knew everything now and in the future, we would
    answer that, even if the consul decides to change his (let us
    say 'he') mind, and even in an ill intention, the gods would
    automatically have foreseen that from the beginning.

    But here, we face an apparent paradox: can Rome gods accept than
    human beings renounce to the auspices?

    Yes imho, for the auspices are just a contractual right that gods
    allow the Romans. In this mind, it is like every right: we can have
    it work, or not, and even renounce to it, because we are in the frame
    of a contract.

    What will then happen? The renounciation to the auspices would
    probably not be sanctioned in itself by our gods: this would be our
    choice, and we would have renounced to a way knowing their will.

    But, from this moment on, we would be fully blind. So, in terms of
    probabilities, we would necessarily, at a time or another, commit a
    fault and act against the gods' will. And this time, they would
    punish us, according their rules.

    Finally, let us go back to gods' omniscience. Imho, our gods do not
    know everything on everyone everywhere in every time. I think that
    this is a main different with monotheisms.

    Roman gods are not Yahve. They just tell us:

    "Well, I do not care knowing your mind or what you do every time, and
    even if you come to me with a bad faith. This is your problem. But
    keep in mind that I am god X, and have my own will. You may know it
    (divination proceedings included auspices) and even try to change it
    in your favor by appropriate prayers and gifts. Mind respecting my
    rituals, and then, do what you see fit, but keeping in mind that you
    are responsible of your acts if you oppose my will or get me angry."

    Last element: when a god (whatever she/he is in any religion) knows
    the future, it means that the future cannot be avoided. In Romans'
    conception, the future is never frozen, because it is in the hands of
    the gods, who often fight about it. Jupiter's will is not necessarily
    Juno's one and so on. Naturally, at the end, Jupiter is supposed to
    carry his point over the other gods, but, as in Greek mythology, a
    Roman god may either not care of everything or not being aware of it,
    specially because another god would have hidden it to her/him.

    Very last point: this last conception means that when we say that we
    get, for example thanks auspices, good signs or, at least, not bad
    ones, it does not necessarily mean that all our gods agree with the
    projects that we announce, but at least that the balance of powers
    inside our gods' world is widely in favor of them.

    Vale Modiane et omnes,


    Albucius







    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "David Kling (Modianus)"
    <tau.athanasios@...> wrote:

    > Salvete:
    >
    > Here is a scenario:
    >
    > A consul asks an augur to conduct and augury because said consul
    wants to
    > convene the comitia for elections and maybe a law or two.
    >
    > Half way through the contio the consul puts up a law to make
    auspices
    > unnecessary. It was not his intention to propose this law when the
    augury
    > was originally conducted, but was a later addition.
    >
    > If the augury was positive initially, then it would seem that the
    Gods are
    > in favor of the comitia being called which would include a law that
    would
    > would eliminate augury.
    >
    > Are the Gods mystically aware of ANYTHING that will happen during a
    comitia
    > call? Do they know what will happen before it happens, and
    therefore
    > present a favorable or disfavorable sign through the augury? Or are
    they
    > only aware of the here and now? If they are only aware of the here
    and now
    > then the intention at the time of the comitia call is essential.
    >
    > Valete:
    >
    > Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus
    >
    > On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 8:27 PM, Titus Iulius Sabinus <
    > iulius_sabinus@...> wrote:
    >
    > > SALVE ET SALVETE!
    > >
    > > My opinion to dilemma:
    > >
    > > Auspices' intent is to find if the Gods approve or not an action,
    in
    > > our case to call comitia to order. As time taking auspices is not
    > > divination they don't seek about what is happen in the future.
    > > The comitia were called and the Gods approved that.
    > > That is all: They approved to start.
    > > How the things are going during the event and possible changes
    don't
    > > belong to that approval.
    > >
    > > VALETE,
    > > IVL SABINVS
    > >
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59081 From: iulius sabinus Date: 2008-11-11
    Subject: Re: Lex Moravia Iulia and time for veto
    SALVE ET SALVETE!
     
    Well, we can't know what the Gods know. We know only what the Gods allow us to know. Taking the auspices and if I receive favorable answer for me it means that the action can start. And I will start because I remember what Livy said: “All things prosperous come to those who follow the Gods....”.
    In the case of Attius Navius and Tarquinus the Elder, when Navius said that the Tarquinus' thought would be accomplished, I guess the Gods inspired him knowing the Tarquinus thought.
    Anyway, through this example we enter in the legends fields and through scenarios in the hypothetical interpretation.
     
    VALE ET VALETE,
    IVL SABINVS

    "Every individual is the architect of his own fortune" - Appius Claudius


    --- On Wed, 11/12/08, David Kling (Modianus) <tau.athanasios@...> wrote:
    Here is a scenario:

    A consul asks an augur to conduct and augury because said consul wants to convene the comitia for elections and maybe a law or two.

    Half way through the contio the consul puts up a law to make auspices unnecessary.  It was not his intention to propose this law when the augury was originally conducted, but was a later addition.

    If the augury was positive initially, then it would seem that the Gods are in favor of the comitia being called which would include a law that would would eliminate augury.

    Are the Gods mystically aware of ANYTHING that will happen during a comitia call?  Do they know what will happen before it happens, and therefore present a favorable or disfavorable sign through the augury? Or are they only aware of the here and now?  If they are only aware of the here and now then the intention at the time of the comitia call is essential.
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    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59082 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2008-11-11
    Subject: Opposing the proposed laws
    Cn. Iulius Caesar Quiritibus sal.

    I urge all citizens to vote against the following laws:

    Rogatio Moravia Iulia de censoribus
    Rogatio Moravia Iulia de consulibus
    Rogatio Moravia Iulia de praetoribus
    Rogatio Moravia Iulia de aedilibus curulibus
    Rogatio Moravia Iulia de aedilibus plebis
    Rogatio Moravia Iulia de quaestoribus
    Rogatio Moravia Iulia de tribunis plebis

    My reasons are simple. I do not oppose returning power to leges
    rather than constitution, BUT I do oppose anything that makes it
    easier at this stage of our development for too much power to be
    potentially centered in the hands of any group of people in Nova
    Roma.

    Nova Roma is essentially volunteer in nature. We are all here of our
    free will, and while we endeavour to create a Roman respublica we
    must be mindful of the fact that if you weaken the safeguards then
    there will come a time when that weakness will be exploited and
    abused. The people who will do that will ignore the volunteer nature
    of our community and interpret the needs of the moment and equate
    them with their aspirations and beliefs. The will of the people could
    easily become secondary.

    Who would have thought at the beginning of the year that some of our
    current magistrates would have taken the trial process, largely
    untested and certainly nascent in its design, and expanded its reach
    to the extent they did? I am sure you all know my views on that topic
    and they haven't changed. The Praetors over extended themselves,
    exploited what they saw as grey areas in our laws and filled in the
    gaps. This was I contend very wrong.

    Here lies the danger in these laws being proposed. The collegiate
    system is Roman. We need pairs of magistrates and if we need more
    that must be a genuine need, not simply a century point grabbing
    exercise to boost more people into the more influential centuries.
    More or less magistrates is dangerous and unecessary. What we have
    now works well for this stage of our development.

    As to the question of tribuncian intercessio, now all the cards are
    out on the table, the tribunes should feel comfortable in their right
    to veto even if the law is passed, for so has it been outlined by
    none other than one of the candidates for praetor next year. Now
    tribunes can move quickly to decide what if anything they wish to do
    immediately the vote has been announced.

    If there is a need for change then that need must be sustainable over
    the long term and be subject of detailed discussion, consultation and
    have broad consensus.

    I do not see that these proposed laws citizens have broad consensus.
    I encourage you to vote no to the above laws and ensure that
    essential safeguards are preserved, especially in a year which has
    seen, I contend, much abuse of the law by elected magistrates.
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59083 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2008-11-11
    Subject: Today in Rome: Nov 12, 2008.
    C. Petronius Dexter omnibus Quiritibus s.p.d.,
     
    Today in Rome :
     
    (Julian day : 2 454 783).
     
    Pridie Idus Novembres
    MMDCCLXI anno Vrbis conditae.
    Coss. M. Moravio T. Iulio.
     
    Day of the week : Mercuri dies (Wednesday).
     
    Lunaris dies: XVI.
    Nundinal letter : D.
     
    Hora ortus Solis : 06:55.
    Hora occasus Solis : 16:52.
    Temp. Min. : 8° C.
    Temp. Max. : 18° C.
    Wind on Rome : 22 Km/h.
    Humidity:  70%.
    Weather: Morning, sun and cool. Afternoon: few showers and mild.
     
    Horae diei :
     
    I: 06:55 - 07:45 Saturni hora.
    II: 07:45 - 08:36 Iovis hora.
    III: 08:36 - 09:27 Martis hora.
    IV: 09:27 - 10:18 Solis hora.
    V: 10:18 - 11:09 Veneris hora.
    VI: 11:09 - 12:00 Mercurii hora.
    VII: 12:00 - 12:48 Lunae hora.
    VIII: 12:48 - 13:37 Saturni hora.
    IX: 13:37 - 14:26 Iovis hora.
    X: 14:26 - 15:14 Martis hora.
    XI: 15:14 - 16:03 Solis hora.
    XII: 16:03 - 16:52 Veneris hora.
     
    Horae noctis :
     
    I: 16:52 - 18:03 Mercurii hora.
    II: 18:03 - 19:14 Lunae hora.
    III: 19:14 - 20:26 Saturni hora.
    IV: 20:26 - 21:37 Iovis hora.
    V: 21:37 - 22:48 Martis hora.
    VI: 22:48 - 00:00 Solis hora.
    VII: 00:00 - 01:09 Veneris hora.
    VIII: 01:09 - 02:18 Mercurii hora.
    IX: 02:18 - 03:28 Lunae hora.
    X: 03:28 - 04:37 Saturni hora.
    XI: 04:37 - 05:46 Iovis hora.
    XII: 05:46 - 06:56 Martis hora.
     
     
     
    Valete.
     
    C. Petronius Dexter.
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59084 From: MCC Date: 2008-11-12
    Subject: Re: Lex Moravia Iulia and time for veto
    Complutensis Caesar SPD

    The legal source for any law is the Roman Law, in Nova Roma we use the Constitution and it says that the Tribune can pronounce intercessio against the actions of any other magistrate, "
    senatus consulta, magisterial edicta, religious decreta, and leges passed by the comitia when the spirit and / or letter of this Constitution or legally-enacted edicta or decreta, senatus consulta or leges............" .

    When a magistrate proposes a law, or take any action (changes the draft ad ex.) it produces a new magisterial action that may be vetoed by the Tribuni, ergo the Tribuni have 72 hours to veto any new magisterial action, draft, etc.. In this case the Consul presented a draft (first acction) and then modified it (new action).

    Vale bene

    M.Cur. Complutensis
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59085 From: MCC Date: 2008-11-12
    Subject: Re: Lex Moravia Iulia and time for veto
    Complutensis Caesar SPD

    GIC dixit:
    The constitution also allows no mechanism for its interpretation. It is as it is.

    The Constitution allowed us to create new leges to develop the Constitution and  we have issued the Lax Salicia Iudiciaria that recognizes the existence of the iurisprudentia, and the iurisprudentia is the interpretation of the written leges and the possibility to apply un-written leges, ergo the Constitution is not as it is (as you said).

    The Constitution is more flexible, it allows the iurisprudentia and the developments of the laws and its own changes.

    If the Constitution does not allow us to adapt and interpret it would not have been so many amendments.

    The same Constitution recognized that there are two parts in the Constitution: the letter and the spirit (the written and the un-written)

    Cura ut valeas

    COMPLVTENSIS



    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59086 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2008-11-12
    Subject: Re: Opposing the proposed laws
    Q. Valerius Poplicola Caesari Quiritibusque S. P. D.

    Fellow citizens, whether or not any abuse of power took place this year is irrelevant to what might happen in the years to come. The Roman Republic has *always* been governed by (at least) dual colleagues, and this continued for the most part even in the empire, where the emperor himself would still appoint two consules.

    As much as I am in favor of replacing the constitution with leges, it is sorely needed at this stage of Roman development. While the intentions of our consules probably are innocent - a clunky government is rather inefficient, I shudder to think of what would happen if certain laws were forced onto the populace setting the number of, say, censores or tribuni plebis to zero. This is not the right time for these laws to take effect. I urge everyone to, for now, vote no.

    bene valete atque di vos incolumes custodiant.

    On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 10:08 PM, Gnaeus Iulius Caesar <gn_iulius_caesar@...> wrote:

    Cn. Iulius Caesar Quiritibus sal.

    I urge all citizens to vote against the following laws:

    Rogatio Moravia Iulia de censoribus
    Rogatio Moravia Iulia de consulibus
    Rogatio Moravia Iulia de praetoribus
    Rogatio Moravia Iulia de aedilibus curulibus
    Rogatio Moravia Iulia de aedilibus plebis
    Rogatio Moravia Iulia de quaestoribus
    Rogatio Moravia Iulia de tribunis plebis

    My reasons are simple. I do not oppose returning power to leges
    rather than constitution, BUT I do oppose anything that makes it
    easier at this stage of our development for too much power to be
    potentially centered in the hands of any group of people in Nova
    Roma.

    Nova Roma is essentially volunteer in nature. We are all here of our
    free will, and while we endeavour to create a Roman respublica we
    must be mindful of the fact that if you weaken the safeguards then
    there will come a time when that weakness will be exploited and
    abused. The people who will do that will ignore the volunteer nature
    of our community and interpret the needs of the moment and equate
    them with their aspirations and beliefs. The will of the people could
    easily become secondary.

    Who would have thought at the beginning of the year that some of our
    current magistrates would have taken the trial process, largely
    untested and certainly nascent in its design, and expanded its reach
    to the extent they did? I am sure you all know my views on that topic
    and they haven't changed. The Praetors over extended themselves,
    exploited what they saw as grey areas in our laws and filled in the
    gaps. This was I contend very wrong.

    Here lies the danger in these laws being proposed. The collegiate
    system is Roman. We need pairs of magistrates and if we need more
    that must be a genuine need, not simply a century point grabbing
    exercise to boost more people into the more influential centuries.
    More or less magistrates is dangerous and unecessary. What we have
    now works well for this stage of our development.

    As to the question of tribuncian intercessio, now all the cards are
    out on the table, the tribunes should feel comfortable in their right
    to veto even if the law is passed, for so has it been outlined by
    none other than one of the candidates for praetor next year. Now
    tribunes can move quickly to decide what if anything they wish to do
    immediately the vote has been announced.

    If there is a need for change then that need must be sustainable over
    the long term and be subject of detailed discussion, consultation and
    have broad consensus.

    I do not see that these proposed laws citizens have broad consensus.
    I encourage you to vote no to the above laws and ensure that
    essential safeguards are preserved, especially in a year which has
    seen, I contend, much abuse of the law by elected magistrates.


    _

    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59087 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2008-11-12
    Subject: Re: Roman banquet?
    Q. Valerius M Hortensiae sal.

    Convivium is fine, comissatio is for a more raunchy affair (but still centered on wine rather than sex). Also, I fixed your final sigmas in your Epicureanism page. Finally, the orgia (note the spelling) are the mysteries of the main mystery religion, including the gods when they act in their savior context, which according to Liddell Scott include Demeter at Eleusis, Demeter elsewhere, Dionysus, Cybele, Orpheus, and some others. It's also used more metaphorically, as you can imagine.

    bene vale.

    On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 7:34 PM, Maior <rory12001@...> wrote:

    M. Hortensia Gn. Caelio Q. Valerio Ameliaeque spd;
    I agree that is so ridiculous.
    In my area our winter meetings will be convivia ( n.sing:
    convivium) is that the correct word for simple Roman food and
    intellectual conversation?
    I'm rather keen on Epicurean philosophy, here's a stub I was
    working on.
    http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Epicureanism.
    optime valete
    Maior

    Were orgeia celebrated in Greece for Dionysus and Magna Mater? What
    did take place.



    > Cn. Caelius Ahenobarus Q. Valerio Poplicolae s.p.d.
    >
    > It is my guess--and just a guess it is--that neither the
    person writing that article nor the person holding the event are
    classical Greeks. They are Americans, and they are using the
    American connotation of the word. From the article, referring to the
    person holding the event:
    >
    > "Duchon —- a nutritional anthropologist and author of a
    forthcoming cultural
    > history of the tomato..."
    >
    > Not a classical Greek. Not a classicist. May speak ancient
    Greek, but that is extremely doubtful. So, I stand by my assumption:
    it is still annoying.
    >
    > --
    >

    __._,_._


    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59088 From: marcushoratius Date: 2008-11-12
    Subject: Pridie Eidus Novembris: L. Albinius and the Vestals
    M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus Quiritibus et omnibus salutem
    plurimam dicit: Diis bene iuvantibus simus.

    Hodie est die pristini Eidus Novembris; haec dies comitialis est:

    AUC 697 / 56 BCE

    Clodius Pulcher attacked the house of Milo

    AUC 363 / 390 BCE: L. Albinus and the Vestals

    "When Rome was captured by the Gauls and the Flamen Quirinalis and
    the Vestales Virgines were transporting the sacred objects, dividing
    the load between them, they crossed the Pons Sublicius and began to
    ascend the slope that leads to the Janiculum. Lucius Albanius, who
    was carrying his wife and daughters in a cart, saw them. Public
    religion being closer to him than private affection, he told his
    family to get down from the cart and put the Virgins and cult objects
    into it, and abandoning the journey he had begun took them to the
    town of Caere, where they were received with profound reverence.
    Grateful memory bears witness to its kindly hospitality even to this
    day, for sacred rites were called caeremonia because the inhabitants
    of Caere cared for them in the shattered state of our commonwealth as
    reverently as when it had been flourishing. Their rustic, grimy cart,
    so ooportunely capacious, might equal or surpass the glory of the
    most effulgent of triumphal chariots." ~ Valerius Maximus 1.1.10

    "Another crowd, mainly of plebeians, for whom there was not room on
    so small a hill as the Capitolium or food enough in the scanty store
    of corn, poured out of the City in one continuous line and made for
    the Janiculum. From there they dispersed, some over the country,
    others towards the neighbouring cities, without any leader or
    concerted action, each following his own aims, his own ideas. and all
    despairing of the public safety. While all this was going on, the
    Flamen of Quirinus and the Vestal virgins, without giving a thought
    to their own property, were deliberating as to which of the sacred
    things they ought to take with them, and which to leave behind, since
    they had not strength enough to carry all, and also what place would
    be the safest for their custody. They thought best to conceal what
    they could not take in earthen jars and bury them under the chapel
    next to the Flamen's house, where spitting is now forbidden. The rest
    they divided amongst them and carried off, taking the road which
    leads by the Pons Sublicius to the Janiculum. Whilst ascending that
    hill they were seen by L. Albinius, a Roman plebeian who with the
    rest of the crowd who were unfit for war was leaving the City. Even
    in that critical hour the distinction between sacred and profane was
    not forgotten. He had his wife and children with him in a wagon, and
    it seemed to him an act of impiety for him and his family to be seen
    in a vehicle whilst the national priests should be trudging along on
    foot, bearing the sacred vessels of Rome. He ordered his wife and
    children to get down, put the virgins and their sacred burden in the
    wagon, and drove them to Caere, their destination." ~ Livy 5.40


    Our thought for today is from Marcus Aurelius, Meditations 7.67:

    "Nature has not so mingled the intelligence with the composition of
    the body, as not to have allowed thee the power of circumscribing
    thyself and of bringing under subjection to thyself all that is thy
    own; for ... very little indeed is necessary for living a happy life.
    And because thou hast despaired of becoming a dialectician and
    skilled in the knowledge of nature, do not for this reason renounce
    the hope of being both free and modest, social and obedient to God."
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59089 From: Steve Moore Date: 2008-11-12
    Subject: Change to Article VI
    M. Valerius Potitus omnibus SPD.

    I would like to draw attention to the proposed change to Article VI of
    the Constitution (the Lex Moravia Iulia de institutis publicis
    religiosis). In the light of the recurring discussions about pagans,
    Christians, Jews, and others in Nova Roma, I think the proposed change
    goes too far in simplifying the paragraph A. The proposal is to have
    paragraph A read:

    "The Religio Romana, defined as the traditional worship of the
    Gods and Goddesses of Rome, shall be the official religion of Nova
    Roma."

    This proposed reading drops an important point. In the current
    Constitution, the paragraph continues:

    "All magistrates and Senators, as officers of the State, shall be
    required to publically show respect for the Religio Romana and the
    Gods and Goddesses that made Rome great. Magistrates, Senators, and
    citizens need not be practitioners of the Religio Romana, but may not
    engage in any activity that intentionally blasphemes or defames the
    Gods, the Religio Romana, or its practitioners."

    This, in turn, echoes the original Constitution:

    "All magistrates and Senators, as officers of the State, shall be
    required to observe the Sacred Days of the Year, and to honor and
    offer sacrifice to the Gods and Goddesses that made and make Rome
    great. Citizens need not be practitioners of the Religio Romana, but
    may not engage in any activity that intentionally blasphemes or
    defames the Gods, the Religio Romana, or its practitioners, and
    Magistrates and Senators shall be required to pay due honor to the Gods."

    I believe this strong statement about the Religio should be retained.
    The statement makes it clear that, no matter what religion a citizen
    may adhere to, he or she must know that they cannot defame the
    Religio. Without this statement, we would have to turn to some lex or
    some decretum for this clarification.

    Magistrates, I ask that paragraph A be left intact.

    Vale.

    Tuta erit vobis Velia.
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59090 From: Robert Levee Date: 2008-11-12
    Subject: Re: Opposing the proposed laws
    Salve,

    Now that's something we can agree on.

    Vale,
    For The Gods!
    Appius Galerius Aurelianus


    --- On Wed, 11/12/08, Q. Valerius Poplicola <catullus.poeta@...> wrote:

    > From: Q. Valerius Poplicola <catullus.poeta@...>
    > Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Opposing the proposed laws
    > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    > Date: Wednesday, November 12, 2008, 12:44 AM
    > Q. Valerius Poplicola Caesari Quiritibusque S. P. D.
    >
    > Fellow citizens, whether or not any abuse of power took
    > place this year is
    > irrelevant to what might happen in the years to come. The
    > Roman Republic has
    > *always* been governed by (at least) dual colleagues, and
    > this continued for
    > the most part even in the empire, where the emperor himself
    > would still
    > appoint two consules.
    >
    > As much as I am in favor of replacing the constitution with
    > leges, it is
    > sorely needed at this stage of Roman development. While the
    > intentions of
    > our consules probably are innocent - a clunky government is
    > rather
    > inefficient, I shudder to think of what would happen if
    > certain laws were
    > forced onto the populace setting the number of, say,
    > censores or tribuni
    > plebis to zero. This is not the right time for these laws
    > to take effect. I
    > urge everyone to, for now, vote no.
    >
    > bene valete atque di vos incolumes custodiant.
    >
    > On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 10:08 PM, Gnaeus Iulius Caesar <
    > gn_iulius_caesar@...> wrote:
    >
    > > Cn. Iulius Caesar Quiritibus sal.
    > >
    > > I urge all citizens to vote against the following
    > laws:
    > >
    > > Rogatio Moravia Iulia de censoribus
    > > Rogatio Moravia Iulia de consulibus
    > > Rogatio Moravia Iulia de praetoribus
    > > Rogatio Moravia Iulia de aedilibus curulibus
    > > Rogatio Moravia Iulia de aedilibus plebis
    > > Rogatio Moravia Iulia de quaestoribus
    > > Rogatio Moravia Iulia de tribunis plebis
    > >
    > > My reasons are simple. I do not oppose returning power
    > to leges
    > > rather than constitution, BUT I do oppose anything
    > that makes it
    > > easier at this stage of our development for too much
    > power to be
    > > potentially centered in the hands of any group of
    > people in Nova
    > > Roma.
    > >
    > > Nova Roma is essentially volunteer in nature. We are
    > all here of our
    > > free will, and while we endeavour to create a Roman
    > respublica we
    > > must be mindful of the fact that if you weaken the
    > safeguards then
    > > there will come a time when that weakness will be
    > exploited and
    > > abused. The people who will do that will ignore the
    > volunteer nature
    > > of our community and interpret the needs of the moment
    > and equate
    > > them with their aspirations and beliefs. The will of
    > the people could
    > > easily become secondary.
    > >
    > > Who would have thought at the beginning of the year
    > that some of our
    > > current magistrates would have taken the trial
    > process, largely
    > > untested and certainly nascent in its design, and
    > expanded its reach
    > > to the extent they did? I am sure you all know my
    > views on that topic
    > > and they haven't changed. The Praetors over
    > extended themselves,
    > > exploited what they saw as grey areas in our laws and
    > filled in the
    > > gaps. This was I contend very wrong.
    > >
    > > Here lies the danger in these laws being proposed. The
    > collegiate
    > > system is Roman. We need pairs of magistrates and if
    > we need more
    > > that must be a genuine need, not simply a century
    > point grabbing
    > > exercise to boost more people into the more
    > influential centuries.
    > > More or less magistrates is dangerous and unecessary.
    > What we have
    > > now works well for this stage of our development.
    > >
    > > As to the question of tribuncian intercessio, now all
    > the cards are
    > > out on the table, the tribunes should feel comfortable
    > in their right
    > > to veto even if the law is passed, for so has it been
    > outlined by
    > > none other than one of the candidates for praetor next
    > year. Now
    > > tribunes can move quickly to decide what if anything
    > they wish to do
    > > immediately the vote has been announced.
    > >
    > > If there is a need for change then that need must be
    > sustainable over
    > > the long term and be subject of detailed discussion,
    > consultation and
    > > have broad consensus.
    > >
    > > I do not see that these proposed laws citizens have
    > broad consensus.
    > > I encourage you to vote no to the above laws and
    > ensure that
    > > essential safeguards are preserved, especially in a
    > year which has
    > > seen, I contend, much abuse of the law by elected
    > magistrates.
    > >
    > >
    > > _
    > >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59091 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2008-11-12
    Subject: Re: When no censors are in office
    Salve Tiberia Consularis,

    [Censorial notae vs. criminal prosecutions]
    > But in response, you insisted that hey, this isn't what you meant at
    > all...Well, just what do you mean?

    What I mean is that notae are both rare and lasting things. They
    don't have to be imposed quickly, though they can be. The decisions
    to impose them and to lift them have to be agreed upon by two
    censorial colleagues who almost certainly have differing views on a
    number of matters.

    Criminal prosecutions are supposed to be as timely as circumstances
    allow. (With the understanding that magistrates can't be prosecuted
    while in office.) They're overseen by the imperium bearing
    magistrates and subject to appeal via provocatio.

    [...]
    > Anyway, to digress a bit, you say you are not defending this proposal,
    > only trying to explain it by saying this or that happened in antiquity:

    Yes, that is correct.

    > When I said ,after having interpreted the language of the new
    > proposal, that it could be upwards of two years before a citizen notae
    > is rescinded, rendering that citizen unable to vote or run for office
    > with limited to nothing that can be done about it ....you respond
    > (from below) with:
    >
    > "Yes. This is also as things were in antiquity."
    >
    > And if this happens too often, Marine, do you think people are going
    > to hang around NR?

    No. That's something that censors always have to consider when
    they're contemplating the issuance of a nota. I do understand that in
    any modern day nation there would be nothing at all like a Roman
    censor, because the censors did have the purely arbitrary power to
    issue notae which could sharply limit the public rights of any
    citizen. But we do have censors, and our founders wanted us to have a
    Republic that included the offices of the Roman Republic. The
    question before us is whether or not to make our Censors more like the
    Censors of antiquity, both in terms of their time in office and their
    nota authority.

    > All to glorify history?

    Call it that if you like. I'd say that's what we're doing here in NR
    in the first place. We're not trying to invent Utopia here.

    > Most people who lose these
    > kinds of privileges are at least granted a trial, in or out of NR.

    That's correct in a modern day nation state. Yes. The question
    really comes down to how much we want our Censors to be like the
    Censors of the Roman Republic in antiquity.

    [...]
    > What I'm reading is 'the more historical, the better for NR'.

    Let me disabuse you of that. I think you know I've strongly supported
    a number of unhistorical things here in Nova Roma, and I will continue
    to do so. The reason I'd like to see this amendment to our
    Constitution pass is because it would require Censors to be elected
    collegially and to serve collegially. It would get rid of the
    staggered two year terms we currently have for censors, which have
    resulted in a radical departure from the way that censors worked in
    antiquity.

    > And by
    > your desired, more historical plan, which I'm happy is not being
    > proposed, the censors should be in office in NR for only 18 months
    > every 5 years,

    You corrected this in your follow-up note, noting that I'd like to see
    censors in office for 18 months out of every 24.

    > with an even longer interim where issues that only
    > Censors can address will remain dormant.

    Yes. If we're to have a Roman Republic that binds our people to the
    Dii Immortales, the role of the Censuria and the Lustrum is an
    important part of that binding. The Lustrum marks the end of a
    Censuria, and if this were being done as I recommended it be done we'd
    be without censors from the end of October until the first of May.
    But that's not what Consul Piscinus was willing to do, so we have a
    shorter time in office so the censors will be available to run for
    another office after a censura that lasts less than a year.

    Vale,

    CN-EQVIT-MARINVS
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59092 From: Colin Cunningham Date: 2008-11-12
    Subject: Personal Unofficial Census of Nova Roma
    Attachments :
      Salvete omnes

      I got bored yesterday, and decided to try to use google to get an unofficial census of Nova Roma.  I thought that since I had the data, I might as well share it.  My methodology was:

      For each of the 4 first groups, I searched the group in the must have field of search, and in not I listed its opposite.  I then did some simple calculations to get ratios and percents.  I limited the search to the domain http://www.novaroma.org/civitas/album.  From this, I feel I was able to get a pretty accurate census.  If anyone has any questions, feel free to email me.

      Here are the results:

      Plebeian Capite Censi---531
      Plebian Assidui---------228
      Patrician Capite Censi--83
      Patrician Assidui-------69

      Total Plebeian----------759
      Total Patrician---------152

      Total Capite Censi------614
      Total Assidui-----------297

      Total Nova Roman--------911

      Plebeian:Patrician 
      ratio~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~5:1  (4.9934:1)

      Patrician percent of 
      total population~~~~~~~~17%  (16.6684%)


      Nothing really surprising, just thought some people might want to know.

      Valete

      C Fulvius Severus
      Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59093 From: sixthcenturykatafractos Date: 2008-11-12
      Subject: Re: Roman banquet?
      Rufus Omnibusque sal.

      Ah yes, seconds of painstaking research. How sad. It's not even as if
      there aren't any easy Roman recipes.

      We'll never stop this sort of thing though, most people wont let go
      of their preconceved notions.

      Di vos incolumes custodiant


      --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lyn Dowling" <ldowling@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > From the Atlanta Journal-Constitution
      >
      >
      > Meal yields side of Roman history
      >
      >
      > By John Kessler <mailto:jkessler@...>
      >
      > The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
      >
      > Sunday, November 09, 2008
      >
      > "Welcome to our orgy!" a jubilant Deborah Duchon called out to the
      small
      > crowd that gathered Saturday afternoon around a crackling fire in
      the
      > pergola at the Woodland Gardens nature preserve in Decatur.
      >
      > Duchon encouraged all to partake of the ample mead, pomegranate
      wine and ale
      > set on the table, noting, "Romans drank more alcohol than water
      because the
      > water was so polluted."
      >
      > Guests crowded around the table to help themselves to drink as well
      as
      > mysterious green balls of a substance called "moretum," rusks of
      bread
      > dripping with honey and olive oil, and meat stewed with dried
      fruits.
      >
      > This seeming bacchanal, advertised as "The Roman Orgy," was, in
      fact, a
      > meeting of the Culinary Historians of Atlanta -- a casual group of
      good
      > cooks and history buffs who see all of recorded human endeavor as a
      fine
      > excuse for a covered dish washed down with a history lesson.
      >
      > Duchon -- a nutritional anthropologist and author of a forthcoming
      cultural
      > history of the tomato -- is most widely known as a frequent guest
      on the
      > Food Network TV show "Good Eats" with Alton Brown.
      >
      > She began the group with friends, neighbors and fans who shared her
      passion
      > for food history. The previous meeting featured a cultural history
      of pizza
      > and featured pies made by Atlanta pizza guru Jeff Varasano.
      >
      > To prepare for Saturday's event, members read e-mailed handouts on
      Roman
      > farming and cooking, histories of Roman feasts, and the foods of
      Roman
      > Britain. They were also given historical recipes to explore, if
      they wanted
      > to.
      >
      > Not all so chose.
      >
      > "I'm Peggy Miller, and I brought a broccoli casserole," said one
      attendee as
      > they went around the room and explained their dishes. Everyone
      laughed.
      >
      > "It's delicious," said Duchon, who promptly found broccoli
      mentioned in a
      > historical Roman text.
      >
      > The moretum turned out to be a tasty herb pesto of sorts. And the
      > rosemary-dusted almonds that tasted so very Roman to the assembled
      guests?
      > From Trader Joe's.
      >
      > But if the food was occasionally an earnest approximation, the
      history
      > lesson was the real deal.
      >
      > Roger Dickerson of Marietta, who was tasked with researching the
      foods of a
      > lavish Roman bacchanal, delivered a long, jaw-dropping presentation
      on the
      > Cena Trimalchionis. This fictional meal described in
      the "Satyricon" was a
      > parody of excess and included rabbits with wings attached to look
      like the
      > flying horse Pegasus, a boar stuffed with live birds that flew out
      of its
      > cavity, and a cake molded in the form of the god Priapus (look it
      up).
      >
      > The culinary historians listened intently to every detail,
      thoughtfully
      > chewing their broccoli casserole.
      >
      > For more information, go to:
      culinaryhistoriansofatlanta.blogspot.com.
      >
      Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59094 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2008-11-12
      Subject: Proposed laws and timing issue of any intercessio
      Cn. Iulius Caesar Quiritibus sal.

      It appears to me that a firm conclusion has been reached on when the
      clock runs for an intercessio, based on the various posts and
      especially the contention of the praetor.

      Any change in a proposed law during contio occurs results in the
      clock for a veto being reset to zero again in respect of the 72 hour
      window for any intercessio, based on the opinion of one of the
      current praetors and candidate for consul.

      So the tribunes can it seems to me still exercise their veto on any
      proposed law that has been subsequently amended during this contio.
      Therefore that means the 72 hours on the changed item will run from
      the time and date of message number 59027, dated on this list the
      11th November, for that seems to me to be the point the consul
      informed us of the revision.

      Of course they can also exercise intercessio if these laws pass
      during or after any Senate stage or at the time when the resulta of
      the contio are posted, as per the Constitution and the opinion of one
      of next year's praetors.

      At least that is how it seems to me.
      Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59095 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2008-11-12
      Subject: Re: Opposing the proposed laws
      Cn. Iulius Caesar Quiritibus sal.

      I am somewhat concerned to read that the consul stated:

      "It was the consensus of those attending the Conventus that a general
      reduction in the number of all offices would make our administration
      more efficient and our elections more competitive."

      It seems to me that for the sake of expediency we are going about
      this utterly the wrong way. I would rather have read that the
      consensus at the Conventus was to develop and action plan to
      encourage more people to fill the existing positions, thus making our
      elections more competitive without making them more exclusive.

      For new citizens, and existing ones who haven't paid much attention
      to the voting system, you may or may not have realized that in
      respect of the voting centuries the more century points you receive
      for positions held, the higher up the century ladder you rise, being
      assigned to ones that may only for example have 4 people in them.

      Compare this century:

      http://www.novaroma.org/civitas/album?cmd=show-century¢ury=1

      with this one:

      http://www.novaroma.org/civitas/album?cmd=show-century¢ury=51

      The top and the bottom of the ladder.

      The votes of the centuries are determined by the majority votes of
      the individual citizens in each one. So in the Century 1 each
      citizen's vote is worth 25%. In Century 51 it is worth about 0.5%.
      The more "important" the position held, the more points are awarded.
      Clearly if we reduce the number of positons we create a point based
      domination of the higher ranking centuries by fewer people.

      Now there is NOTHING wrong with this system. It is very Roman and it
      is appropriate that citizens who contribute hard work and effort to
      Nova Roma be rewarded - on the understanding those positions should
      be gifted on need and actual work done for them, BUT, it is a system
      open to either accidental or deliberate abuse.

      To deliberately abuse the system would simply require a chain of
      magistrates over a few years acting in concert to use various
      positions to promote their "political" friends to, with no regard to
      the need or actual work done. With an effective campaign for votes
      and circulation of endorsements, the electorate could mistakenly
      assume that all this acting in concert was a good thing. It can be if
      the results are genuine, required and the goal is the betterment of
      Nova Roma and not the establishment of a ruling clique. Now of course
      I am sure that isn't happening here....yet.

      More likely however what would happen would be the explosion of
      positions, because the longer we exist as a community, the more rules
      we seem to develop - more laws, more projects and as a result the
      administration, as with all governments, seems to develop a force of
      its own and expands to fill the space available.

      This proposal of the consul to reduce the number of elected
      positions, whilst seemingly a good thing, when linked to the century
      point system, means that fewer people will choose either less or more
      citizens to serve in these point earning administrative roles. So we
      will either continue to see the positions expand, gifted by fewer
      people, or, these admin positions will shrink making a smaller number
      of magistrates the sought after benefactors for less positions.
      Personally I just see fewer magistrates gifting more people with an
      increasing number of positions.

      This is unhealthy for many reasons. We don't need one magistrate. We
      always need pairs. This is an open invitation to nepotism, sycophancy
      and yes a type of corruption. This is not the basis of a republic,
      but the sort of foundations that an imperial model could be built on.
      The intentions of those persons proposing this are not relevant. What
      is relevant that an inherent Roman safeguard could be done away with,
      causing us problems in the future, possibly the near future. There is
      simply no need for this.

      Now some will no doubt say that since any reduction, or increase,
      will have to be legislated, why be concerned? The answer is that if
      sufficient numbers of magistrates, of senior rank, one day appear in
      this forum proposing that the number of praetors, consuls, censors
      either go up or down, that is a collective voice of much influence.
      What if their intentions are not however in the interests of the
      people or Nova Roma, but their interests? Could your average citizen
      tell the difference – until it was too late? Also by then if these
      laws pass we will have established the precedent and in effect signed
      up to this in principle. It is much harder to argue about the
      specific proposal when the general principle has been approved. By
      then it is, frankly, too late.

      This is a voluntary organization, a voluntary community, and as such
      it is prone to all the downsides of other such groups. How many of
      you know of, or are members of, groups where nepotism is the order of
      the day, cliques rule and positions are restricted and controlled? we
      in Nova Roma are not immune from these temptations and pressures and
      therefore citizens we should reject any proposal that exposes us to
      an increased risk of this occurring. I stress again, it matters not
      what the supporters of these laws say are the reasons. Examine the
      risks and act to prevent them becoming a reality in Nova Roma.

      A good government is one with inherent checks and balances. It is my
      contention, and clearly that of others, that these proposed laws will
      increase the risk of our checks and balances being compromised.

      Therefore I offer you further food for thought and encourage you to
      vote NO to these laws.


      --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robert Levee <galerius_of_rome@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Salve,
      >
      > Now that's something we can agree on.
      >
      > Vale,
      > For The Gods!
      > Appius Galerius Aurelianus
      >
      Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59096 From: M•IVL•SEVERVS Date: 2008-11-12
      Subject: CONVOCATORIA A LOS COMITIA CENTVRIATA
      Salvete omnes,
       
      Lamento no haber podido hacerles llegar antes la versión en español de la convocatoria del Cónsul M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus a los Comitia Centuriata para las elecciones que comienzan el día 15.
      Espero que les sea de utilidad.
       
      Valete,

      M•IVL•SEVERVS
      PRÆTOR•NOVÆ•ROMÆ

      SENATOR
      PRÆTOR•PROVINCIÆ•MEXICO
       

      M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus Consul: Senatui Populoque Novo Romano, T. Iulio Sabino Consuli collegae Quiritibus, et omnibus: salutem plurimam dicunt: Cetera scire de se Dis immortalibus curae esse

      Los Comitia Centuriata son convocados para votar en las elecciones de magistraturas ordinarias centuriatas para el año calendario ab urbem condita 2762.

      El Contio comenzará a las 7:00 horas, tiempo de Roma (Tiempo Central Europeo) del 9 de noviembre y terminará a las 17:00 horas, tiempo de Roma, del 14 de noviembre.

      Durante el Contio, los diribitores deberán escoger y anunciar la Centuria Praerogativa.

      Enseguida comenzará la votación, conforme al siguiente horario:

      07:00 hrs CET 15 de noviembre: comienza el voto únicamente de la Centuria Praerogativa.

      07:00 hrs CET 17 de noviembre: los diribitores capturan los sufragios de la Centuria Praerogativa.

      07:00 hrs CET 17 de noviembre: se permite la votación de todas las centurias de primera clase.

      07:00 hrs CET 20 de noviembre: los diribitores capturan los sufragios de todas las centurias de primera clase.

      07:00 hrs CET 20 de noviembre: se permite el voto de todas las centurias.

      16:00 hrs CET 23 de noviembre: termina la votación.

      Los diribitores deberán proporcionar informes sobre el avance de la votación conforme a lo dispuestos por la LEX FABIA DE RATIONE COMITIORUM CENTURIATORUM.

      Las magistraturas a elección y los candidatos a las mismas, son:

      -----------

      CENSOR (1 vacante)

      Publius Constantinus Placidus http://www.novaroma .org/civitas/ album?id= 5934

      Titus Iulius Sabinus http://www.novaroma .org/civitas/ album?id= 8092

      C. Popillius Laenas http://www.novaroma .org/civitas/ album?id= 1781

      -----------

      CONSUL (2 vacantes)

      M. Iulius Severus http://www.novaroma .org/civitas/ album?id= 8632

      Marcus Curiatius Complutensis http://www.novaroma .org/civitas/ album?id= 6159

      -----------

      PRAETOR (2 vacantes)

      Gnaeus Equitius Marinus http://www.novaroma .org/civitas/ album?id= 2356

      P. Memmius Albucius http://www.novaroma .org/civitas/ album?id= 7425

      -----------

      Si Dis placet, quod bonum faustum felixque sit

      Se someten a consideración de los Comitia Centuriata las siguientes iniciativas de leyes Moravia Iulia.

      Velitis iubeatisne haec sic fieri?

      ¿Es su voluntad y deseo que así se haga? Que la Lex Fabia de ratione comitiorum centuriatorum sea enmendada:

      I Iniciativa de Lex Moravia Iulia de ratione comitiorum centuriatorum

      Por medio de esta Lex Moravia Iulia de ratione comitiorum centuriatorum, se enmienda la Lex Fabia de ratione comitiorum centuriatorum 5. B que dispone:

      "En el caso de una elección magisterial, el voto deberá ser secuencial.

      1. "Una centuria de primera clase deberá ser seleccionada mediante sorteo por los diribitores, para que vote en primer lugar. Ninguna centuria que conste de un solo miembro podrá ser sorteada para este propósito. Durante las primeras 48 horas de la votación, únicamente los miembros de dicha centuria podrán emitir su voto.

      2. "Veinticuatro (24) horas después del inicio del periodo de votación, los diribitores deberán contar los sufragios de todos aquellos que hayan votado hasta el momento, de acuerdo con el método prescrito arriba, en el inciso A. 1 y anunciarán los resultados a más tardar 48 horas después del inicio del periodo de votación.

      3. "Cuarenta y ocho (48) horas después del inicio del periodo de votación, el resto de las centurias de la primera clase podrá emitir su voto; los miembros de la centuria seleccionada conforme al inciso B.1 que no hayan votado aún, podrán hacerlo todavía.

      4 "Noventa y seis (96) horas después del inicio del periodo de votación, los diribitores deberán contar los sufragios de todos aquellos que hayan votado hasta el momento, de acuerdo con el método prescrito arriba, en el inciso A. 1 y anunciarán los resultados a más tardar 120 horas después del inicio del periodo de votación.

      5. "Ciento veinte (120) horas después del inicio del periodo de votación, todos aquellos con capacidad de voto, que aún no hayan emitido sus sufragios, deberán hacerlo. Toda votación finalizará no menos de 216 horas después del inicio del periodo de votación.

      El inciso 5. B de la Lex Fabia de ratione comitiorum centuriatorum 5.B es enmendado como sigue:

      5.B: "En el caso de elecciones magisteriales, el periodo de votación deberá durar no menos de 192 horas (ocho días) y todas las centurias deberán emitir sus votos concurrentemente. Los informes de los resultados deberán ser anunciados de manera secuencial.

      1. "Los diribitores deberán seleccionar mediante sorteo una de las centurias de primera clase para que sea la Centuria Praerogativa. Ninguna centuria que conste de un solo miembro podrá ser seleccionada para este propósito.

      2. "Dentro de las siguientes cuarenta y ocho (48) horas después del inicio del periodo de votación, los Diribitores deberán realizar el recuento de los votos de quienes hayan sufragado hasta entonces en la Centuria Praerogativa y deberán anunciar esos resultados a más tardar 48 horas después del inicio del periodo de votación.

      3. "Noventa y seis (96) horas después del inicio del periodo de votación, los Diribitores deberán realizar el recuento de los votos de quienes hayan sufragado hasta entonces y deberán anunciar los resultados únicamente de las centurias de primera clase, a más tardar 120 horas después del inicio del periodo de votación.

      4. "Toda votación deberá terminar en no menos de 192 horas (ocho días) a contar desde el comienzo del periodo de votación. Los Diribitores deberán entonces contar todos los votos y dentro de un plazo de 48 horas, informar de los resultados únicamente al magistrado presidente y a su colega, conforme al inciso 3. F."

      NOTA: El propósito y el objetivo de esta propuesta, es simplificar el procedimiento de votación, de manera que resulte menos confuso para nuestros votantes. Al mismo tiempo, conserva la Centuria Praerogativa para propósitos augurales y el informe secuencial de los resultados.

       

      -------------

       

      Velitis iubeatisne haec sic fieri?

      ¿Es su voluntad y deseo que así se haga? Que la Constitución de Nova Roma sea enmendada mediante la aprobación de la siguiente lex:

      II Iniciativa de Lex Moravia Iulia de institutis publicis religiosis

      Mediante esta Lex Moravia Iulia de institutis publicis religiosis la Constitución, Artículo VI, sobre las Instituciones Religiosas Públicas, es reemplazado por el siguiente Artículo VI.

      A. La Religio Romana, definida como el culto tradicional a los Dioses y Diosas de Roma, será la religión oficial de Nova Roma.

      B. Las responsabilidades sacerdotales correspondientes a la Religión de Estado de Nova Roma, corresponderán primordialmente al Collegium Pontificum y al Collegium Augurum.

      1. El Collegium Pontificum estará integrado por el Rex y la Regina Sacrorum, los Flamens, las Flaminicas, los Pontifices y las Sacerdotes Vestales, incluidas en el Collegium Pontificum pero conservando sus propias reglas y normas. El Collegium Pontificum será responsable de conducir y administrar todas las ceremonias religiosas públicas fuera de los ritos asignados a los Augures. Para tal propósito, el Collegium Pontificum podrá crear dignidades sacerdotales, sodalitates y collegia.

      2. El Collegium Augurum estará integrado por todos los Augures públicos pertenecientes al mismo Collegium Augurum, con sus propias normas y reglas. Los miembros individuales del Collegium Augurum serán responsables de instruir y asesorar a los magistrados curules respecto a cómo llevar a cabo auspicia en nombre de Nova Roma. En otras ceremonias religiosas, los Augures deberán llevar a cabo sus responsabilidades tradicionales. El Collegium Augurum podrá crear dignidades sacerdotales y sodalitates relacionadas específicamente con la conducción y administración de sus responsabilidades.

      C. Podrán ser instituidos collegia sacerdotales adicionales y sus reglas y normas establecidas por el Collegium Pontificum, con la aprobación de los Comitia Centuriata.

      NOTA: El propósito y el objetivo de esta propuesta, es simplificar el lenguaje de la Constitución, establecer un modelo más histórico en los Collegia al hacerlos independientes unos de otros y dar a cada Collegium más flexibilidad para determinar cómo deben desarrollarse las instituciones de la Religio Romana. Al mismo tiempo, se establece una medida de revisión por los Comitia Centuriata respecto a las decisiones del Collegium Pontificum relativas a la creación de nuevos collegia sacerdotales.

      ____________ ________

      NOTA: Las propuestas III a IX se refieren a los magistrados. Enmiendan la Constitución al añadir disposiciones que permiten a los Comitia establecer responsabilidades y poderes adicionales para los respectivos magistrados, o limitan dichos poderes y responsabilidades mediante la aprobación de leyes en vez de enmiendas a la Constitución.  Permiten asimismo a los Comitia determinar y modificar el número de ciertos magistrados, conforme sea necesario. Esto nos dará un mayor grado de flexibilidad para hacer frente a situaciones que puedan surgir en el futuro. Estas propuestas nos llevarán asimismo a tener un modelo constitucional más histórico, puesto que las situaciones imprevistas eran decididas por los Comitia y no por la Constitución en sí. La mayor modificación se refiere a los Censores. La iniciativa de Lex de censoribus hará esta magistratura más histórica, al contar con dos Censores electos simultáneamente para llevar a cabo un censo cada dos años. Históricamente, los Censores eran elegidos únicamente cada cinco años y permanecían en sus cargos durante 18 meses. Proponemos un mandato de un año y Censores electos cada dos años. Con esta propuesta, combinada con las demás, que permitirían a los Comitia reducir el número de magistrados al que sea suficiente y necesario, los Cónsules esperan responder al problema  constante de la existencia de demasiados cargos sin suficientes candidatos para cubrirlos y, por consiguiente, la elección de magistrados sin deberes específicos asignados a ellos. Respecto a los Censores, muchas de sus antiguas obligaciones han sido asumidas por nuestros Rogadores y actualmente la principal responsabilidad de los Censores es llevar a cabo el censo bianual. A partir del censo se decide el número de senadores y los Censores conservan sus poderes para agregar nuevos senadores y/o dar de baja a otros. Al reducir su mandato a un año, tiempo más que suficiente para llevar a cabo sus funciones, deberíamos tener presumiblemente más candidatos calificados para otros cargos.

      Velitis iubeatisne haec sic fieri?

      ¿Es su voluntad y deseo que así se haga? Que la Constitución de Nova Roma sea enmendada mediante la aprobación de la siguiente lex:

      III Iniciativa de Lex Moravia Iulia de Censoribus

      Mediante esta Lex Moravia Iulia de Censoribus se enmienda la Constitución, Artículo IV, inciso A, párrafo 1, que establece:

      IV.A.1: Censor. "Dos Censores serán elegidos por los Comitia Centuriata para un mandato de dos años y deberán ser electos en años alternos, de manera que haya un año de diferencia en la duración del mandato de cada uno de ellos. Tendrán los siguientes honores, poderes y obligaciones:

      “a. Promulgar los edicta (edictos) necesarios para llevar a cabo aquellas tareas que les asignan esta Constitución y las demás leyes (dichos edictos serán obligatorios para todos los ciudadanos);

      b. Mantenber el Album Civium (registro de ciudadanos), con inclusión de la tribu y la centuria a la que cada uno es asignado, así como cualesquiera otra información pertinente;

      c. Mantener el Album gentium (registro de gentes) y la información pertinente al efecto;

      d. Manbtener el Album Senatorum (registro de los Senadores), con el poder de añadir o eliminar nombres en él;

      e. Mantener el Album Equestrium (registro de miembros de la Orden Ecuestre), con el poder de añadir o eliminar nombres;

      f. Salvaguardar la moral y el honor públicos, mediante la emisión colegiada de notae;

      1. Una nota contra un individuo ordinario es suficiente para privarlo del derecho al voto hasta que sea revocada;

      2. Una nota contra un miembro del Senado es suficiente para removerlo del cuerpo colegiado, hasta que sea revocada;

      g. Nombrar Scribae (escribas) para que les asistan en tareas administrativas y de cualesquiera otra índole, conforme lo consideren necesario".

      Por tanto, el artículo IV.A.1 queda modificado así:

      IV.A.1: Censor: "En cualquier año después de llevarse a cabo el censo, los Comitia Centuriata elegirán a dos Censores para desempeñar colegiadamente sus cargos por un año, durante el año inmediatamente posterior. Esto es, dos Censores deberán ser elegidos juntos una vez cada dos años. Tendrán los siguientes honores, poderes y obligaciones:

      a. Dirigir el censo,

      b. Garantizar que el Album Civium sea actualizado de acuerdo con los resultados del censo;

      c. Supervisar el Album Senatorum (registro de los Senadores en funciones), con el poder para añadir o eliminar nombres en dicho registro, conforme a los requisitos establecidos por la ley;

      d. Promulgar los edicta (edictos) necesarios para llevar a cabo aquellas tareas que les asignan esta Constitución y las demás leyes (dichos edictos serán obligatorios para todos los ciudadanos);

      e. Nombrar Scribae (escribas) para que les asistan en tareas administrativas y de cualesquiera otra índole, conforme lo consideren necesario;

      f. Emitir notae, en su calidad de garantes de la moral pública y el honor cívico-.

      1. Una nota sirve como amonestación para un ciudadano que haya incurrido en conductas impropias, sin establecer algún tipo de penalidad.

      2. Mediante una nota, un ciudadano podrá ser reasignado a otra tribu, incluso las urbanas que se reservan para los capiti censi, o las aerari, para aquellos sin tribu, con lo cual un ciudadano aerari perderá el derecho de voto en cualquier asamblea tribal.

      3. Mediante una nota, un ciudadano podrá ser reasignado a una centuria de cualquier clase, incluso la última centuria de los Comitia Centuriata, reservada para los capiti censi.

      4. Una nota emitida contra un miembro del Senado podrá, adicionalmente, imponer la sanción de ejectio e Senatu (remoción del Senado).

      5. Una nota sólo podrá ser revocada por los Censores, tanto quienes la hayan emitido, como sus sucesores.

      g. Conducir el Lustrum, como su último acto oficial antes de terminar su mandato.

      h. Todas las acciones censoriales oficiales deberán ser colegiadas. Esto es, ambos Censores deben estar de acuerdo en cualquier acción oficial. Si uno de los Censores se ve imposibilitado para continuar en funciones, la Censura (periodo del mandato de ambos) terminará inmediatamente y su colega debe renunciar al cargo de Censor".

      2. La Lex Moravia Iulia de Censoribus entrará en vigor en las calendas de enero de 2762 AVC. El mandato del candidato electo para el periodo del 1 de enero  de 2762 AVC al 31 de diciembre de 2763 AVC, será modificado para que se ejerza del 1 de enero al 31 de diciembre de 2762 AVC. No se verán afectados los puntos centuriales recibidos por el mandato reducido, sino que se adjudicarán como si se hubiese ejercido durante dos años.

      ____________ ________

      Velitis iubeatisne haec sic fieri?

      ¿Es su voluntad y deseo que así se haga? Que la Constitución de Nova Roma sea enmendada mediante la aprobación de la siguiente lex:

      IV Iniciativa de Lex Moravia Iulia de Consulibus

      1. Por medio de esta Lex Moravia Iulia de Consulibus se enmienda el primer párrafo del artículo Article IV, inciso A, sección 2, de la Constitución, que establece:

      "Dos Cónsules deberán ser elegidos anualmente por los Comitia Centuriata para un periodo de un año. Tendrán los siguientes honores, poderes y obligaciones:"

      Por tanto, primer párrafo del artículo Article IV, inciso A, sección 2, queda enmendado de la siguiente manera:

      IV.A.2: Cónsules: "Dos Cónsules serán elegidos anualmente por los Comitia Centuriata para un periodo de un año. Sus poderes y áreas de responsabilidad podrán ser definidos mediante una ley aprobada por los Comitia Centuriata. Adicionalmente, los Cónsules tendrán los siguientes honores, poderes y obligaciones:"

      2. La Lex Moravia Iulia de Consulibus entrará en vigor en las calendas de enero de 2762 AVC.

      ____________ ________

      Velitis iubeatisne haec sic fieri?

      ¿Es su voluntad y deseo que así se haga? Que la Constitución de Nova Roma sea enmendada mediante la aprobación de la siguiente lex:

      V Iniciativa de Lex Moravia Iulia de Praetoribus

      1. Por medio de esta Lex Moravia Iulia de Praetoribus se enmienda el primer párrafo del artículo IV, inciso A, sección 3 de la Constitución, que establece:

      IV.A.3: Praetor. "Dos Praetores serán elegidos por los Comitia Centuriata para un periodo de un año. Tendrán los siguientes honores, poderes y obligaciones:"

      El primer párrafo del artículo IV, inciso A, sección 3 de la Constitución, queda como sigue:

      IV.A.3: Praetor. "Un número de Praetores determinado por la ley, será elegido por los Comitia Centuriata para un periodo de un año. El número de Praetores, sus poderes y áreas de responsabilidad, podrán ser definidos por una ley aprobada por los Comitia Centuriata. Adicionalmente, los Praetores tendrán los siguientes honores, poderes y obligaciones:"

      2. La Lex Moravia Iulia de Praetoribus entrará en vigor en las calendas de enero de 2762 AVC.

      __________ ________

      Velitis iubeatisne haec sic fieri?

       

      ¿Es su voluntad y deseo que así se haga? Que la Constitución de Nova Roma sea enmendada mediante la aprobación de la siguiente lex:

      VI Iniciativa de Lex Moravia Iulia de Aedilibus Curulibus

      1. Por medio de esta Lex Moravia Iulia de Aedilibus Curulibusis se enmienda el artículo IV.A, sección 4, de la Constitución, que establece:

      4. Aediles Curules (Curule Aediles). "Dos Curule Aediles serán elegidos por los Comitia Populi Tributa para un periodo de un año. Tendrán los siguientes honores, poderes y obligaciones:

      a. Ejercer Imperium;

      b. Promulgar los edicta (edictos)necesarios para llevar a cabo los juegos públicos y otros festivales y reuniones, asegurar el orden en los eventos religiosos públicos, supervisar el mantenimiento de cualesquiera edificios o instalaciones que adquiera el Estado y administrar la ley (sus edictos serán obligatorios para todos los ciudadanos);

      c. Pronunciar intercessio contra otros Aedile (Curule o de la Plebe), o magistrados de menor autoridad;

      d. Nombrar Scribae (escribas) para asistirlos en tareas administrativas y de otra índole, conforme lo consideren necesario;

      e. Supervisar el mantenimiento de los locales donde la Ordo Equester realicen actividades comerciales dentro de las propiedades de Nova Roma. Es responsabilidad de los Curule Aediles informar a los Censores de cualesquier cambios dentro de la Ordo Equester".

      El artículo IV.A.4 es enmendado y pasa a ser IV.A.5 como sigue:

      IV.A.5: Aedilis Curulis: "Un número de Aediles Curules, determinado por la ley, será elegido por los Comitia Populi Tributa para un periodo de un año. El número de Aediles Curules, sus poderes y áreas de responsabilidad, podrán ser definidos por una ley aprobada por los Comitia Populi Tributa. Adicionalmente, los Aediles Curules tendrán los siguientes honores, poderes y obligaciones:

      a. Administrar los fondos que les asigne el Senado y supervisar el mantenimiento de cualquier propiedad real y/o instalaciones públicas propiedad de Nova Roma;

      b. Promulgar los edicta (edictos) necesarios para llevar a cabo los juegos públicos y otros festivales y reuniones, asegurar el orden en los eventos religiosos públicos. Sus edictos serán obligatorios para todos los ciudadanos.

      c. Pronunciar intercessio contra otros Aedile (Curule o de la Plebe), o magistrados de menor autoridad;

      d. Nombrar Scribae (escribas) para asistirlos en tareas administrativas y de otra índole, conforme lo consideren necesario.

      e. Supervisar el mantenimiento de los locales donde la Ordo Equester realice actividades comerciales dentro de las propiedades de Nova Roma. Es responsabilidad de los Curule Aediles informar a los Censores de cualesquier cambios dentro de la Ordo Equester".

      2. La Lex Moravia Iulia de Aedilibus Curulibus entrará en vigor en las calendas de enero de 2762 AVC.

      ____________ ________

      Velitis iubeatisne haec sic fieri?

      ¿Es su voluntad y deseo que así se haga? Que la Constitución de Nova Roma sea enmendada mediante la aprobación de la siguiente lex:

      VII Iniciativa de Lex Moravia Iulia de Aedilibus Plebis

      1. Por medio de esta Lex Moravia Iulia de Aedilibus Plebis se enmienda el artículo IV.A, inciso 5 de la Constitución, que establece:

      IV.A.5: Aediles plebis (Aediles de la Plebe). "Dos Aediles de la Plebe serán elegidos por los Comitia Plebis Tributa para un periodo de un año. Ambos deben pertenecer al Orden Plebeyo y tendrán los siguientes honores, poderes y obligaciones:"

      El artìculo IV.A.5 será enmendado y quedará como IV.A.6 y su primer párrafo quedará como sigue:

      IV.A.6: Aediles Plebis: "Un número de Aediles Plebis, determinado por la ley, será elegido por los Comitia Plebis Tributa para un periodo de un año. El número de Aediles Plebis, sus poderes y áreas de responsabilidad, podrán ser definidos por una ley aprobada por los Comitia Plebis Tributa. Adicionalmente, los Aediles Plebis tendrán los siguientes honores, poderes y obligaciones:"

      2. La Lex Moravia Iulia de Aedilibus Plebis entrará en vigor en las calendas de enero de 2762 AVC.

      ____________ ________

      Velitis iubeatisne haec sic fieri?

      ¿Es su voluntad y deseo que así se haga? Que la Constitución de Nova Roma sea enmendada mediante la aprobación de la siguiente lex:

      VIII Iniciativa de Lex Moravia Iulia de Quaestoribus

      1. Por medio de esta Lex Moravia Iulia de Quaestoribus se enmienda la Constitución, Artículo IV, inciso A, sección 6, que establece:

      IV.A.6: Quaestor. "Un número de Quaestores sera elegido por los Comitia Populi Tributa, igual al número de Cónsules, Praetores y Aediles, por un periodo de un año. Un Quaestor sera asignado a cada uno de esos magistrados por mutuo acuerdo o, si no es posible lograrlo, por decisión de los nuevos Cónsules. Los Quaestores tendrán el poder y la obligación de administrar aquellos fondos que les sean confiados por el Senado en su presupuesto annual, bajo la supervisión de los magistrados a los que sean asignados. Los Quaestores asignados directamente a los Cónsules supervisarán la totalidad del Aerarium (Tesorería), pero ningún monto podrá ser ejercido sin la previa aprobación del Senado".

      El artículo IV.A.6 será enmendado y quedará como IV.A.7, como sigue:

      IV.A.7: Quaestor. "Un número de Quaestores, determinado por la ley, sera elegido por los Comitia Populi Tributa por un periodo de un año. Los Cónsules, colegiadamente, les asignarán deberes y responsabilidades. Los Quaestores tendrán el poder y la obligación de administrar aquellos fondos que les sean confiados por el Senado en su presupuesto anual, bajo la supervisión de los magistrados a los que sean asignados. Los Quaestores asignados directamente a los Cónsules supervisarán la totalidad del Aerarium (Tesorería), supervisarán a los otros Quaestores y serán responsables de que ningún recurso financiero de Nova Roma se ejercido sin la previa aprobación del Senado y la autorización de un magistrado curule. (Esto es, autorización de uno de los Cónsules, Praetores o Aediles Curules)".

      2. La Lex Moravia Iulia de Quaestoribus entrará en vigor en las calendas de enero de 2762 AVC.

      ____________ ________

      Velitis iubeatisne haec sic fieri?

      ¿Es su voluntad y deseo que así se haga? Que la Constitución de Nova Roma sea enmendada mediante la aprobación de la siguiente lex:

      IX Iniciativa de Lex Moravia Iulia de Tribunis Plebis

      1. En el orden jerárquico de los magistrados ordinarii, los Tribuni Plebis ocuparán el cuarto sitio, detrás de los Praetores.

      2. Consecuentemente, el artículo IV, inciso A, párrafo 7, de la Constitución, se convierte en artículo  IV, parte A, inciso 4, con los otros incisos de la parte A, siguiendo el mismo orden numérico.

      3. Por medio de esta Lex Moravia Iulia de Tribunis Plebis se enmienda el artículo IV, parte A, inciso 7, de la Cobstitución, que establece:

      "Tribuni Plebis (Tribuno de la Plebe). Cinco Tribunos de la Plebe serán elegidos por los Comitia Plebis Tributa para un periodo de un año".

      El artículo IV.A.7 será enmendado como IV.A.4 como sigue:

      "Tribuni Plebis (Tribunos de la Plebe): Tres (3) Tribunos de la Plebe serán elegidos por los Comitia Plebis Tributa para un periodo de un año".

      4. La Lex Moravia Iulia de Tribunis Plebis entrará en vigor en las calendas de enero de 2762 AVC y por tanto, deberá aplicarse a quienes sean electos Tribuni Plebis el mismo año, para comnenzar su mandato en diciembre de 2762 AVC.

      Vos quod fexitis, Deos omnes fortunare velim.

      Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59097 From: L Julia Aquila Date: 2008-11-12
      Subject: Re: Roman banquet?
      L. Julia Aquila Omnibus sal.

      Very interesting comments on this thread.

      Gratias tibi L. Aemilia, Q. Valerius

      Ahenobarbus brought up a good point and many cultures today coming to
      America often find such customs being misinterpreted. In this case is
      added the inaccurate histories that were taught in the halls of
      higher education for centuries believing that the ancient Greeks and
      Roman were licentious barbarians. Of course the ancient Greeks and
      Romans were also guilty of this.
      In my familial celebrations growing up we had decidedly bacchanalian
      aspects to many of our celebrations and adopted a ¡§don¡¦t ask,
      don¡¦t tell¡¨ attitude to those outside of our circle who usually
      positively misinterpreted these festivities according to their own
      orientations and this was in a part of the country which has a more
      tolerant and academic environment. We were taught early on of the
      prejudices and misinterpretations of others but also incorporated
      elements of the hegemonic celebrations and this often led to more
      gifts and a very busy sacred season.
      I would like to say that it is a different world today but this would
      not be entirely true: the burden is still on us, as Roman citizens,
      to educate the public, to update the educational literature and to be
      examples by our actions. What an opportunity we have!
      We need to reinforce the meaning and history of such terms
      as ¡§orgi¡¨ and bacchanalia in context of ancient times as
      contemporary dictionaries teach a modern version, so this is an
      opportunity for the new Romans to truly act as Romans and enlighten
      others. Maior mentioned Epicureanism; this is often lumped together
      with Cyrenaeic Hedonism. Few know the tedious rules restrictions
      associated with it Epicureanism. Maior, if you need some assistance
      on that project let me know.
      We also need not to judge others too harshly sometimes education is
      only as good as its sources, check your American English
      dictionaries. I know my family celebrations were loving, and as most
      huge feasts, extravagant, but we reveled fully clothed and beyond
      expressions of affection I do not remember any overt sexual activity.
      Perhaps this is why I have developed a sense of humor regarding those
      ignorant to our customsļ. It is surely needed in my coping arsenal I
      employ in the part of the country I currently reside.

      Curate ut valeatis atque di vos incolumes custodiant,

      Julia Aquila
      Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59098 From: L Julia Aquila Date: 2008-11-12
      Subject: Re: Opposing the proposed laws
      Aquila Caesari Omnibusque.

      Thank you for this wonderful explanation of century points.

      We should not decrease the number of positions but seek to put into
      action methods to increase new citizen participation within Nova Roma
      rather than make it so overwhelming that these new citizens feel more
      comfortable melting into the background and eventually fading away.
      NR also should encourage the esteemed long time citizens to take some
      time to take the initiative to explain, as you demonstrated here, the
      various aspects of Nova Roma in a language new citizens can
      understand and to avoid making dismissive comments.

      For example, the laws: not only are they written in legal language
      but they also contain many Latin terms and with the sheer number of
      them they are difficult to understand. Add to this historical and
      modern considerations and they become even more difficult to
      understand.
      And so we, new citizens, persevere...

      Bene valéte,

      Julia Aquila

      -- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gnaeus Iulius Caesar"
      <gn_iulius_caesar@...> wrote:
      >
      > Cn. Iulius Caesar Quiritibus sal.
      >
      > I am somewhat concerned to read that the consul stated:
      >
      > "It was the consensus of those attending the Conventus that a
      general
      > reduction in the number of all offices would make our
      administration
      > more efficient and our elections more competitive."
      >
      > It seems to me that for the sake of expediency we are going about
      > this utterly the wrong way. I would rather have read that the
      > consensus at the Conventus was to develop and action plan to
      > encourage more people to fill the existing positions, thus making
      our
      > elections more competitive without making them more exclusive.
      >
      > For new citizens, and existing ones who haven't paid much attention
      > to the voting system, you may or may not have realized that in
      > respect of the voting centuries the more century points you receive
      > for positions held, the higher up the century ladder you rise,
      being
      > assigned to ones that may only for example have 4 people in them.
      >
      > Compare this century:
      >
      > http://www.novaroma.org/civitas/album?cmd=show-century¢ury=1
      >
      > with this one:
      >
      > http://www.novaroma.org/civitas/album?cmd=show-century¢ury=51
      >
      > The top and the bottom of the ladder.
      >
      > The votes of the centuries are determined by the majority votes of
      > the individual citizens in each one. So in the Century 1 each
      > citizen's vote is worth 25%. In Century 51 it is worth about 0.5%.
      > The more "important" the position held, the more points are
      awarded.
      > Clearly if we reduce the number of positons we create a point based
      > domination of the higher ranking centuries by fewer people.
      >
      > Now there is NOTHING wrong with this system. It is very Roman and
      it
      > is appropriate that citizens who contribute hard work and effort to
      > Nova Roma be rewarded - on the understanding those positions should
      > be gifted on need and actual work done for them, BUT, it is a
      system
      > open to either accidental or deliberate abuse.
      >
      > To deliberately abuse the system would simply require a chain of
      > magistrates over a few years acting in concert to use various
      > positions to promote their "political" friends to, with no regard
      to
      > the need or actual work done. With an effective campaign for votes
      > and circulation of endorsements, the electorate could mistakenly
      > assume that all this acting in concert was a good thing. It can be
      if
      > the results are genuine, required and the goal is the betterment of
      > Nova Roma and not the establishment of a ruling clique. Now of
      course
      > I am sure that isn't happening here....yet.
      >
      > More likely however what would happen would be the explosion of
      > positions, because the longer we exist as a community, the more
      rules
      > we seem to develop - more laws, more projects and as a result the
      > administration, as with all governments, seems to develop a force
      of
      > its own and expands to fill the space available.
      >
      > This proposal of the consul to reduce the number of elected
      > positions, whilst seemingly a good thing, when linked to the
      century
      > point system, means that fewer people will choose either less or
      more
      > citizens to serve in these point earning administrative roles. So
      we
      > will either continue to see the positions expand, gifted by fewer
      > people, or, these admin positions will shrink making a smaller
      number
      > of magistrates the sought after benefactors for less positions.
      > Personally I just see fewer magistrates gifting more people with an
      > increasing number of positions.
      >
      > This is unhealthy for many reasons. We don't need one magistrate.
      We
      > always need pairs. This is an open invitation to nepotism,
      sycophancy
      > and yes a type of corruption. This is not the basis of a republic,
      > but the sort of foundations that an imperial model could be built
      on.
      > The intentions of those persons proposing this are not relevant.
      What
      > is relevant that an inherent Roman safeguard could be done away
      with,
      > causing us problems in the future, possibly the near future. There
      is
      > simply no need for this.
      >
      > Now some will no doubt say that since any reduction, or increase,
      > will have to be legislated, why be concerned? The answer is that if
      > sufficient numbers of magistrates, of senior rank, one day appear
      in
      > this forum proposing that the number of praetors, consuls, censors
      > either go up or down, that is a collective voice of much influence.
      > What if their intentions are not however in the interests of the
      > people or Nova Roma, but their interests? Could your average
      citizen
      > tell the difference – until it was too late? Also by then if these
      > laws pass we will have established the precedent and in effect
      signed
      > up to this in principle. It is much harder to argue about the
      > specific proposal when the general principle has been approved. By
      > then it is, frankly, too late.
      >
      > This is a voluntary organization, a voluntary community, and as
      such
      > it is prone to all the downsides of other such groups. How many of
      > you know of, or are members of, groups where nepotism is the order
      of
      > the day, cliques rule and positions are restricted and controlled?
      we
      > in Nova Roma are not immune from these temptations and pressures
      and
      > therefore citizens we should reject any proposal that exposes us to
      > an increased risk of this occurring. I stress again, it matters not
      > what the supporters of these laws say are the reasons. Examine the
      > risks and act to prevent them becoming a reality in Nova Roma.
      >
      > A good government is one with inherent checks and balances. It is
      my
      > contention, and clearly that of others, that these proposed laws
      will
      > increase the risk of our checks and balances being compromised.
      >
      > Therefore I offer you further food for thought and encourage you to
      > vote NO to these laws.
      >
      >
      > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robert Levee <galerius_of_rome@>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > Salve,
      > >
      > > Now that's something we can agree on.
      > >
      > > Vale,
      > > For The Gods!
      > > Appius Galerius Aurelianus
      > >
      >
      Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59099 From: M•IVL•SEVERVS Date: 2008-11-12
      Subject: CONVOCATORIA A LOS COMITIA POPVLI TRIBVTA

      Salvete omnes,

      Lamento no haber podido hacerles llegar antes la versión en español de la convocatoria del Cónsul M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus a los Comitia Centuriata para las elecciones que comienzan el día 15.

      Espero que les sea de utilidad.

      Valete,
      M•IVL•SEVERVS
      PRÆTOR•NOVÆ•ROMÆ

      SENATOR
      PRÆTOR•PROVINCIÆ•MEXICO

      M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus Consul: Senatui Populoque Novo Romano, T. Iulio Sabino Consuli collegae Quiritibus, et omnibus: salutem plurimam dicunt: Cetera scire de se Dis immortalibus curae esse

      Los Comitia Populi Tributa son convocados para votar por los magistrados tribales para el año calendario ab urbem condita 2762.

      El contio comenzará a las 07:00 horas, tiempo de Roma (Tiempo del Centro de Europa), el 9 de noviembre y terminará a las 17:00 horas, tiempo de Roma, del 14 de noviembre.

      La votación se inicioará a las 7:00 horas (TCE) del 15 de noviembre y terminará a las 17:00 horas (TCE) del 23 de noviembre de 2761 AVC.

      Las magistraturas involucradas en este proceso electoral y los candidatos a ocuparlas, son:

      AEDILIS CURULIS (2 posiciones)

      Cn. Iulius Caesar http://www.novaroma .org/civitas/ album?id= 7228

      QUAESTOR (ocho posiciones)

      Gaius Arminius Reccanellus  http://www.novaroma .org/civitas/ album?id= 7658

      Tiberius Cornelius Scipio http://www.novaroma .org/civitas/ album?id= 10231

      Quintus Valerius Poplicola http://www.novaroma .org/civitas/ album?id= 11334

      Titus Flavius Aquila http://www.novaroma .org/civitas/ album?id= 10597

      Marcus Valerius Potitus http://www.novaroma .org/civitas/ album?id= 11061

      Gaius Petronius Dexter http://www.novaroma .org/civitas/ album?id= 11584

      Lucia Livia Plauta http://www.novaroma .org/civitas/ album?id= 11097

      Lucius Gratius Nerva http://www.novaroma .org/civitas/ album?id= 10109

      ROGATOR (dos posiciones)

      Gaius Tullius Valerianus Germanicus http://www.novaroma .org/civitas/ album?id= 257

      Aula Tullia Scholastica http://www.novaroma .org/civitas/ album?id= 6596

      Titus Arminius Geniales http://www.novaroma .org/civitas/ album?id= 4760

      DIRIBITOR (cuatro posiciones)

      M. Octavius Corvus http://www.novaroma .org/civitas/ album?id= 10265

      Marcus Valerius Traianus http://www.novaroma .org/civitas/ album?id= 249

      Gaius Terentius Varro http://www.novaroma .org/civitas/ album?id= 2986

      Annia Minucia Marcella http://www.novaroma .org/civitas/ album?id= 5123

      CUSTOS (dos posiciones)

      Lucius Salix Cicero http://www.novaroma .org/civitas/ album?id= 1513

      Marcus Lucretius Agricola http://www.novaroma .org/civitas/ album?id= 7619

      Vos quod fexitis, Deos omnes fortunare velim.

      Se somete también a la decisión de los Comitia Populi Tributa:

      Velitis iubeatisne haec sic fieri?

      ¿Es su voluntad y deseo que así se haga? Que los Comitia Populi Tributa aprueben la siguiente lex:

      Lex Moravia Iulia de tributo Virgines Vestales

      Por medio de esta Lex Moravia Iulia de tributo Virgines Vestales es enmendada la Lex Apula de assidui et capiti censi, pars II, con la adición del párrafo II.B, que señala:

      II.B: "Quienes sean designadas como Vírgenes Vestales por el Collegium Pontificum estarán exentas del pago del impuesto anual y conservarán su calidad de Assidui durante el tiempo en que sean Vírgenes Vestales. No se impondrá condición alguna a las Vírgenes Vestales para su adscripción a centurias y tribus, o en cuanto a su elegibilidad para ser candidatas a cargos públicos".

      Si Dis placet, quod bonum faustum felixque sit


      Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59100 From: Patrick D. Owen Date: 2008-11-12
      Subject: Fl. Galerius Aurelianus - Support of Candidates
      Fl. Galerius Aurelianus S.P.D.

      To the Senate and People of Nova Roma, I would like to announce my
      support for the following candidates for office. These individuals
      are well known to me by our correspondence and their actions on
      behalf of our Res Publica. I regard each of them with respect and
      affection for their character, their regard for the Virtues, and
      their Romanitas. Please join your hands to mine that they may be
      elected to continue to give us all their good service:

      For CENSOR - C. Popilleus Laenas, my dear friend and brother, to whom
      I offer my unconditional support. I know that he will be an
      outstanding Censor in whom the Sentate and People of Nova Roma can
      expect unstinting service and respect for your personal information.

      For CONSULS – Marcus Iulius Severus and Marcus Curiatius
      Complutensis, two worthy individuals who I have come to know and with
      whom I have worked in the past. Marcus Iulius has an ability to
      communicate well under the most adverse circumstances and this will
      serve the Res Publica well. Marcus Curiatius has always worked hard
      in service to Nova Roma and these two individuals will make wonderful
      Consuls.

      For PRAETOR – Gnaeus Equitius Marinus brings so much experience to
      this office, that combined with his well-known knowledge of the
      Constitution and Leges, he cannot fail to be excellent as a Praetor.

      For QUAESTOR – While we are fortunate to have the requisite number of
      candidates for this office, I would like to single out three
      individuals who I admire for their talents, tenacity, and
      determination: Titus Flavius Aquila, Lucia Livia Plauta, and Quintus
      Valerius Poplicola.

      For ROGATOR – Gaius Tullius Valerianus Germanicus and Aula Tullia
      Scholastica are the best candidates for this office. I firmly
      believe that they will show the same service as Rogatores that they
      have shown in other offices and projects for Nova Roma.

      May all the other candidates receive what is appropriate, auspicious,
      and fortunate by the favor of Dii Immortales.

      Valete.
      Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59101 From: M•IVL•SEVERVS Date: 2008-11-12
      Subject: Re: Fl. Galerius Aurelianus - Support of Candidates
      Severus Aureliano s.d.
       
      Thank you very much for your support. I am ready to serve Nova Roma with all my capacity and dedication.
       
      Vale bene,

      M•IVL•SEVERVS
      CANDIDATVS•CONSVL

      Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59102 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2008-11-12
      Subject: Re: Fl. Galerius Aurelianus - Support of Candidates
      Salve Aureliane,

      Thank you for your generous endorsement. I wish you all the best in
      your upcoming Tribunician year.

      Vale,

      CN-EQVIT-MARINVS


      "Patrick D. Owen" <Patrick.Owen@...> writes:

      [...]
      > For PRAETOR – Gnaeus Equitius Marinus brings so much experience to
      > this office, that combined with his well-known knowledge of the
      > Constitution and Leges, he cannot fail to be excellent as a Praetor.
      Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59103 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2008-11-12
      Subject: Re: Personal Unofficial Census of Nova Roma
      Salve C Fulvius Severus

      Very interesting. How would you like to work for me in the Censors office?
      I have a project in mind for now and you will be able to help with the
      official census next year.

      Vale

      Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
      Censor



      >From: "Colin Cunningham" <talimar1@...>
      >Reply-To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
      >To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: [Nova-Roma] Personal Unofficial Census of Nova Roma
      >Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 11:22:24 -0500
      >
      >Salvete omnes
      >
      >I got bored yesterday, and decided to try to use google to get an
      >unofficial
      >census of Nova Roma. I thought that since I had the data, I might as well
      >share it. My methodology was:
      >For each of the 4 first groups, I searched the group in the must have field
      >of search, and in not I listed its opposite. I then did some simple
      >calculations to get ratios and percents. I limited the search to the
      >domain http://www.novaroma.org/civitas/album. From this, I feel I was able
      >to get a pretty accurate census. If anyone has any questions, feel free to
      >email me.
      >
      >Here are the results:
      >
      >Plebeian Capite Censi---531
      >Plebian Assidui---------228
      >Patrician Capite Censi--83
      >Patrician Assidui-------69
      >
      >Total Plebeian----------759
      >Total Patrician---------152
      >
      >Total Capite Censi------614
      >Total Assidui-----------297
      >
      >Total Nova Roman--------911
      >
      >Plebeian:Patrician
      >ratio~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~5:1 (4.9934:1)
      >
      >Patrician percent of
      >total population~~~~~~~~17% (16.6684%)
      >
      >
      >Nothing really surprising, just thought some people might want to know.
      >
      >Valete
      >
      >C Fulvius Severus


      ><< PersonalNovaRomaCensus11-10-08.txt >>
      Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59104 From: gaiuspopilliuslaenas Date: 2008-11-12
      Subject: Re: Fl. Galerius Aurelianus - Support of Candidates
      Salve amice and my thanks.

      If elected I will certainly do my best.

      Vale,

      Laenas

      --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick D. Owen"
      <Patrick.Owen@...> wrote:
      >
      > Fl. Galerius Aurelianus S.P.D.
      >
      > To the Senate and People of Nova Roma, I would like to announce my
      > support for the following candidates for office. These individuals
      > are well known to me by our correspondence and their actions on
      > behalf of our Res Publica. I regard each of them with respect and
      > affection for their character, their regard for the Virtues, and
      > their Romanitas. Please join your hands to mine that they may be
      > elected to continue to give us all their good service:
      >
      > For CENSOR - C. Popilleus Laenas, my dear friend and brother, to
      whom
      > I offer my unconditional support. I know that he will be an
      > outstanding Censor in whom the Sentate and People of Nova Roma can
      > expect unstinting service and respect for your personal information.
      >
      > For CONSULS – Marcus Iulius Severus and Marcus Curiatius
      > Complutensis, two worthy individuals who I have come to know and
      with
      > whom I have worked in the past. Marcus Iulius has an ability to
      > communicate well under the most adverse circumstances and this will
      > serve the Res Publica well. Marcus Curiatius has always worked
      hard
      > in service to Nova Roma and these two individuals will make
      wonderful
      > Consuls.
      >
      > For PRAETOR – Gnaeus Equitius Marinus brings so much experience to
      > this office, that combined with his well-known knowledge of the
      > Constitution and Leges, he cannot fail to be excellent as a Praetor.
      >
      > For QUAESTOR – While we are fortunate to have the requisite number
      of
      > candidates for this office, I would like to single out three
      > individuals who I admire for their talents, tenacity, and
      > determination: Titus Flavius Aquila, Lucia Livia Plauta, and
      Quintus
      > Valerius Poplicola.
      >
      > For ROGATOR – Gaius Tullius Valerianus Germanicus and Aula Tullia
      > Scholastica are the best candidates for this office. I firmly
      > believe that they will show the same service as Rogatores that they
      > have shown in other offices and projects for Nova Roma.
      >
      > May all the other candidates receive what is appropriate,
      auspicious,
      > and fortunate by the favor of Dii Immortales.
      >
      > Valete.
      >
      Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59105 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2008-11-12
      Subject: Re: Greetings and Introduction
      Fl. Galerius Aurelianus to his cousin, Appius Galerius Aurelianus sal.

      Your email should have been forwarded to the individual by private email.  Your note was misleading to this person on several levels.  Primus, Nova Roma does not restrict membership based upon modern political affiliation so long as the person doesn't attempt to use our organization to forward their modern political ideology.  Secundus, while the word "fuhrer" has been given an unpleasant connotation by some, it is not a matter that you should bring up on the public ML just because of someone's email address.  Tertius, you are as yet unelected to the office of Tribunus and you should not be making assumptions that you speak for Nova Roma.  Based upon this note and your past history of not communicating or not communicating well, I do not believe you will do well as a Tribunus; an office that requires good communication skills, diplomacy, and understanding.

      Vale.  


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Robert Levee <galerius_of_rome@...>
      To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 2:46 pm
      Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Greetings and Introduction

      Salve,A.Sergius Cincinnatus S.P.D.

      I welcome you to the Republic of Nova Roma.
      The Latin name you have chosen is fine as far as I am concerned.
      It is the choice of the word (FUHRER), in your g-mai; name that gives me pause.I know we do not allow fascists in Nova Roma, and I certainly hope this in no way is associated with national socialism.I hope I am wrong and often times am, but could you please explain the meaning of this name to me?It may be fairly innocent but the word conotates for some many unhappy days in our families past.
      Optime vale,
      Ap.Galerius Aurelianus

      --- On Mon, 11/10/08, A. Sergius Cincinnatus <fuhrer.mustang@ gmail.com> wrote:

      > From: A. Sergius Cincinnatus <fuhrer.mustang@ gmail.com>
      > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Greetings and Introduction
      > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
      > Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 3:09 PM
      > A. Sergius Cincinnatus Omnibus Petronioque S.P.D.
      >
      > Salvete!
      >
      > First I would like to thank everyone here for the warm
      > welcome they
      > have given me. Nothing excites me more than the chance to
      > do what
      > good I can in the Res publica.
      >
      > Secondly, I apologize to you, C. Petronius Dexter, if you
      > feel as
      > though I have slighted the honor of gens Sergia by being a
      > plebeian.
      > I will not go into detail as to why I chose the name
      > Sergius
      > Cincinnatus, but I will say that when I chose gens Sergia,
      > I made sure
      > to check the Album Civium to see if I would be the only
      > plebeian. In
      > fact I am not the only plebeian, and having consulted the
      > Album Civium
      > again, there are no patricians registered from gens Sergia.
      >
      > Optime valete.
      >
      > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, "Gaius Petronius
      > Dexter"
      > <jfarnoud94@ ...> wrote:
      > >
      > > C. Petronius M. Hortensiae s.p.d.,
      > >
      >
      > > > welcome and it is excellent to see such an
      > ancient Roman gens as
      > > > Sergia revived by citizens.
      > >
      > > A. Sergius Cincinnatus is not a Sergius revival of the
      > gens Sergia. He
      > > is not rekindling the Manes of the Sergii. The Roman
      > Sergii, from
      > > Sergestus comrade-in-arms to Aeneas, were Patricians.
      > >
      > > Our friend A. Sergius Cincinnatus, in despite is
      > famous Sergius name
      > > and his most famous Cincinnatus cognomen is not
      > registered by our
      > > censors into the Patrician order!
      > >
      > > Note: I wonder if the Manes of the Sergii are happy at
      > this bad
      > > treatment done by our censors. ;o)
      > >
      > > Vale.
      > >
      > > C. Petronius Dexter
      > >

      Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59106 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2008-11-12
      Subject: Re: Personal Unofficial Census of Nova Roma
      Salvete

      Sorry! This was meant to be posted to him privately.

      Valete

      Tiberius Galerius Paulinus



      >From: "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@...>
      >Reply-To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
      >To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: RE: [Nova-Roma] Personal Unofficial Census of Nova Roma
      >Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 17:09:24 -0500
      >
      >Salve C Fulvius Severus
      >
      >Very interesting. How would you like to work for me in the Censors office?
      >I have a project in mind for now and you will be able to help with the
      >official census next year.
      >
      >Vale
      >
      >Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
      >Censor
      >
      >
      >
      > >From: "Colin Cunningham" <talimar1@...>
      > >Reply-To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
      > >To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
      > >Subject: [Nova-Roma] Personal Unofficial Census of Nova Roma
      > >Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 11:22:24 -0500
      > >
      > >Salvete omnes
      > >
      > >I got bored yesterday, and decided to try to use google to get an
      > >unofficial
      > >census of Nova Roma. I thought that since I had the data, I might as
      >well
      > >share it. My methodology was:
      > >For each of the 4 first groups, I searched the group in the must have
      >field
      > >of search, and in not I listed its opposite. I then did some simple
      > >calculations to get ratios and percents. I limited the search to the
      > >domain http://www.novaroma.org/civitas/album. From this, I feel I was
      >able
      > >to get a pretty accurate census. If anyone has any questions, feel free
      >to
      > >email me.
      > >
      > >Here are the results:
      > >
      > >Plebeian Capite Censi---531
      > >Plebian Assidui---------228
      > >Patrician Capite Censi--83
      > >Patrician Assidui-------69
      > >
      > >Total Plebeian----------759
      > >Total Patrician---------152
      > >
      > >Total Capite Censi------614
      > >Total Assidui-----------297
      > >
      > >Total Nova Roman--------911
      > >
      > >Plebeian:Patrician
      > >ratio~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~5:1 (4.9934:1)
      > >
      > >Patrician percent of
      > >total population~~~~~~~~17% (16.6684%)
      > >
      > >
      > >Nothing really surprising, just thought some people might want to know.
      > >
      > >Valete
      > >
      > >C Fulvius Severus
      >
      >
      > ><< PersonalNovaRomaCensus11-10-08.txt >>
      >
      >
      Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59107 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2008-11-12
      Subject: Re: Fl. Galerius Aurelianus - Support of Candidates
      Poplicola Aureliano S. P. D.

      Many thanks for your vote of confidence! The Roman people will not be
      let down by my service.

      bene uale, amice!
      Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59108 From: Lucia Livia Plauta Date: 2008-11-12
      Subject: Voting on the proposed laws
      L.Livia Plauta tribuna plebis omnibus quiritibus S.P.D.

      I am still convinced that consul Piscinus' proposals have more
      advantages than disadvantages, and that our citizens are mature enough
      to prevent any dire consequences in case they pass.

      However I have collected here a list of the Rogationes which seem not
      to have caused any heated discussions and are thus safe to be approved.

      I ask the citizens to vote YES at least on the following proposals.
      In the Comitia Centuriata:

      - Rogatio Moravia Iulia de ratione comitiorum centuriatorum

      This is the law that would abolish sequencial voting, which has been a
      thorn in the side to all concerned for ages.

      - Rogatio Moravia Iulia de consulibus

      This law only allows additional tasks for the consuls to be decided by
      law. It doesn't change their number.

      - Rogatio Moravia Iulia de quaestoribus

      This law makes the number of quaestores independent from that of
      magistrates. This means that they could be more if necessary, or less,
      if there are few candidates.

      - Rogatio Moravia Iulia de curatore aerarii

      This law gives a bit more recognition, and century points to the
      curator aerarii, the person who has one of the hardest and most
      important tasks in NR, accounting.


      In the Comitia Populi Tributa:

      - Rogatio Moravia Iulia de tributo virgines vestales (this should read
      in correct Latin "de tributo virginibus vestalibus")

      This law exempts vestal virgins from paying taxes. We know how hard it
      is to get volunteers for this position. A minimal incentive like this
      is better than nothing.
      Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59109 From: Publius Memmius Albucius Date: 2008-11-12
      Subject: Re: Voting on the proposed laws
      Liviae s.d.

      Independantly of the value of the matter, am I wrong, or you are
      displaying new Rogationes items that have not yet been communicated
      by the Consuls ? Has the tribunate been annexed by the consulate ? ;-)

      Vale bene,


      P. Memmius Albucius


      --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucia Livia Plauta" <cases@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > L.Livia Plauta tribuna plebis omnibus quiritibus S.P.D.
      >
      > I am still convinced that consul Piscinus' proposals have more
      > advantages than disadvantages, and that our citizens are mature
      enough
      > to prevent any dire consequences in case they pass.
      >
      > However I have collected here a list of the Rogationes which seem
      not
      > to have caused any heated discussions and are thus safe to be
      approved.
      >
      > I ask the citizens to vote YES at least on the following proposals.
      > In the Comitia Centuriata:
      >
      > - Rogatio Moravia Iulia de ratione comitiorum centuriatorum
      >
      > This is the law that would abolish sequencial voting, which has
      been a
      > thorn in the side to all concerned for ages.
      >
      > - Rogatio Moravia Iulia de consulibus
      >
      > This law only allows additional tasks for the consuls to be decided
      by
      > law. It doesn't change their number.
      >
      > - Rogatio Moravia Iulia de quaestoribus
      >
      > This law makes the number of quaestores independent from that of
      > magistrates. This means that they could be more if necessary, or
      less,
      > if there are few candidates.
      >
      > - Rogatio Moravia Iulia de curatore aerarii
      >
      > This law gives a bit more recognition, and century points to the
      > curator aerarii, the person who has one of the hardest and most
      > important tasks in NR, accounting.
      >
      >
      > In the Comitia Populi Tributa:
      >
      > - Rogatio Moravia Iulia de tributo virgines vestales (this should
      read
      > in correct Latin "de tributo virginibus vestalibus")
      >
      > This law exempts vestal virgins from paying taxes. We know how hard
      it
      > is to get volunteers for this position. A minimal incentive like
      this
      > is better than nothing.
      >
      Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59110 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2008-11-12
      Subject: Re: Opposing the proposed laws
      --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L Julia Aquila" <dis_pensible@...>
      wrote:
      >
      >
      > Aquila Caesari Omnibusque.
      >
      > Thank you for this wonderful explanation of century points.
      >
      > We should not decrease the number of positions but seek to put into
      > action methods to increase new citizen participation within Nova Roma
      > rather than make it so overwhelming that these new citizens feel more
      > comfortable melting into the background and eventually fading away.
      > NR also should encourage the esteemed long time citizens to take some
      > time to take the initiative to explain, as you demonstrated here, the
      > various aspects of Nova Roma in a language new citizens can
      > understand and to avoid making dismissive comments.
      >
      >

      Salve!

      I think it would be great if people could add ideas to this page:
      http://www.novaroma.org/nr/New_citizen_first_steps

      vale!

      Agricola
      Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59111 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2008-11-12
      Subject: Today in Rome: Nov 13, 2008.
      C. Petronius Dexter omnibus Quiritibus s.p.d.,
       
      Today in Rome :
       
      (Julian day : 2 454 784).
       
      Idibus Novembribus
      MMDCCLXI anno Vrbis conditae.
      Coss. M. Moravio T. Iulio.
       
      Day of the week : Iovis dies (Thursday).
       
      Lunaris dies: XVII.
      Nundinal letter : E.
      Natalis dies Matris Feroniae in Campo Martio.
      Plena Luna.
       
      Hora ortus Solis : 06:56.
      Hora occasus Solis : 16:51.
      Temp. Min. : 11° C.
      Temp. Max. : 17° C.
      Wind on Rome : 26 Km/h.
      Humidity:  78%.
      Weather:Passing showers. Cloudy. Cool.
       
      Horae diei :
       
      I: 06:56 - 07:46 Solis hora.
      II: 07:46 - 08:37 Veneris hora.
      III: 08:37 - 09:28 Mercurii hora.
      IV: 09:28 - 10:18 Lunae hora.
      V: 10:18 - 11:09 Saturni hora.
      VI: 11:09 - 12:00 Iovis hora.
      VII: 12:00 - 12:48 Martis hora.
      VIII: 12:48 - 13:37 Solis hora.
      IX: 13:37 - 14:25 Veneris hora.
      X: 14:25 - 15:14 Mercurii hora.
      XI: 15:14 - 16:02 Lunae hora.
      XII: 16:02 - 16:51 Saturni hora.
       
      Horae noctis :
       
      I: 16:51 - 18:02 Iovis hora.
      II: 18:02 - 19:14 Martis hora.
      III: 19:14 - 20:25 Solis hora.
      IV: 20:25 - 21:37 Veneris hora.
      V: 21:37 - 22:48 Mercurii hora.
      VI: 22:48 - 00:00 Lunae hora.
      VII: 00:00 - 01:09 Saturni hora.
      VIII: 01:09 - 02:19 Iovis hora.
      IX: 02:19 - 03:28 Martis hora.
      X: 03:28 - 04:38 Solis hora.
      XI: 04:38 - 05:47 Veneris hora.
      XII: 05:47 - 06:57 Mercurii hora.
       

      Valete.
       
      C. Petronius Dexter.
      Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59112 From: Titus Flavius Aquila Date: 2008-11-13
      Subject: AW: [Nova-Roma] Fl. Galerius Aurelianus - Support of Candidates
       
      Aquila Aureliano S. P. D.
        
      thank you very much for your endorsement, I am honoured.
       
      If elected I will serve our res publica Nova Roma with all of my heart and ability.
       
      Optime vale
      Titus Flavius Aquila


      Von: Patrick D. Owen <Patrick.Owen@...>
      An: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
      Gesendet: Mittwoch, den 12. November 2008, 22:51:32 Uhr
      Betreff: [Nova-Roma] Fl. Galerius Aurelianus - Support of Candidates

      Fl. Galerius Aurelianus S.P.D.

      To the Senate and People of Nova Roma, I would like to announce my
      support for the following candidates for office. These individuals
      are well known to me by our correspondence and their actions on
      behalf of our Res Publica. I regard each of them with respect and
      affection for their character, their regard for the Virtues, and
      their Romanitas. Please join your hands to mine that they may be
      elected to continue to give us all their good service:

      For CENSOR - C. Popilleus Laenas, my dear friend and brother, to whom
      I offer my unconditional support. I know that he will be an
      outstanding Censor in whom the Sentate and People of Nova Roma can
      expect unstinting service and respect for your personal information.

      For CONSULS – Marcus Iulius Severus and Marcus Curiatius
      Complutensis, two worthy individuals who I have come to know and with
      whom I have worked in the past. Marcus Iulius has an ability to
      communicate well under the most adverse circumstances and this will
      serve the Res Publica well. Marcus Curiatius has always worked hard
      in service to Nova Roma and these two individuals will make wonderful
      Consuls.

      For PRAETOR – Gnaeus Equitius Marinus brings so much experience to
      this office, that combined with his well-known knowledge of the
      Constitution and Leges, he cannot fail to be excellent as a Praetor.

      For QUAESTOR – While we are fortunate to have the requisite number of
      candidates for this office, I would like to single out three
      individuals who I admire for their talents, tenacity, and
      determination: Titus Flavius Aquila, Lucia Livia Plauta, and Quintus
      Valerius Poplicola.

      For ROGATOR – Gaius Tullius Valerianus Germanicus and Aula Tullia
      Scholastica are the best candidates for this office. I firmly
      believe that they will show the same service as Rogatores that they
      have shown in other offices and projects for Nova Roma.

      May all the other candidates receive what is appropriate, auspicious,
      and fortunate by the favor of Dii Immortales.

      Valete.


      Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59113 From: Titus Flavius Aquila Date: 2008-11-13
      Subject: Titus Flavius Aquila - Support of Candidates

      T.Flavius Aquila omnibus Quiritibus s.p.d.,


      for the upcoming elections I would like to announce my support for the following candidates for office. The candidates are well known to me by correspondence , by their Romanitas and their actions on behalf of our Res Publica. I regard each of them with high respect .


      For CENSOR – Titus Iulius Sabinus  

      For CONSULS –Marcus Curiatius Complutensis and Marcus Iulius Severus  

      For PRAETOR –  Publius Memmius Albucius and Gnaeus Equitius Marinus

      For Curule Aedile - Gnaeus Iulius Caesar

      For ROGATOR –Aula Tullia Scholastica

      For Diribitor - Marcus Octavius Corvus and Annia Minucia Marcella

      For Custos -  Marcus Lucretius Agricola

       

      For the Plebeian offices

      For Aedilis Plebis - Quintus Caecilius Metellus Pius Postumianus

      For Tribunus Plebis – Flavius Galerius Aurelianus, Appius Galerius Aurelianus and Tiberius Horatius Barbatus

       

      Optime valete.

      Titus Flavius Aquila

       

      Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59114 From: Q. Caecilius Metellus Date: 2008-11-13
      Subject: de Candidatis
      Q Caecilius Metellus Quiritibus salutem.

      de candidatis officia publica petendibus multa et magna dicenda mihi est, sed de
      paucis solum. hos per ordinem maiestatis applaudare uolo. ergo non diu morer.

      primum de C Popillio Laenate, ad censuram petende, dicam. non sine decore magno
      quod poscit nomen adparuit Rei Publicae C Popillius Laenas, senator consularis,
      qui quaestor et praetor et consul adparuit. uocem enim cognosco C Popilli
      rationabilem sanemque, ut mentem, firma et sapiens. in censura, officium C
      Popilli mores publicos sustinere sit, non dubito quin inlustre mores sustineat C
      Popillius Laenas senator. suffrago ad censuram petendi causam, ut omnes, pro C
      Popillio Laenate.

      secundum dicam de Cn Iulio Caesare, ad aedilitatem curulem petende. praesertim
      mihi lubet petere Cn Iuli Caesaris uidere, uir magnus a facto et nomine. in
      mentibus multorum Cn Iulius sit persona non grata; fortasse autem ingratum uisum
      quod ueritatem acerbam sine uelatione dulce dicat. an ei amicus an inimicus es,
      Cn Iulius omnibus pius cognoscatur, qui clare in aedilitatem curulem requiritur.
      ad dignitatem curulem uos urgeo altare, pro Cn Iulio Caesare censentibus.

      per factum autem minus de alteris dicenda est mihi, non minus suffrago. ad
      quaesturam de Q Ualerio, quem censeo ut fratrem, et C Petronio, quem patruum,
      aduocem. ut spero, quaestores hos uiros aptos uideant.

      In pacem simus,

      Quintus Caecilius Metellus Postumianus
      Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59115 From: Q. Caecilius Metellus Date: 2008-11-13
      Subject: de Candidatis
      Q Caecilius Metellus Quiritibus salutem.

      I have, about the candidates seeking public office, a few great things to say.
      I'd like to praise them in the order of their offices, so let me delay no longer.

      First let me speak about C Popillius Laenas, seeking the Censorship. Not
      without the great honour befitting his name has Senator Consularis C Popillius
      Laenas served our Republic, as Quaestor, Praetor, and Consul (i.a.) I know his
      voice to be a sound, reasonable one, just as his mind, solid and sensible. In
      the Censorship, it will be the duty of C Popillius to maintain the public
      morality, which I do not doubt the Senator will do with distinction. I lend my
      support to the candidacy of C Popillius Laenas for the Censorship, and urge all
      to do the same.

      Secondly let me speak about Cn Iulius Caesar, seeking the Curule Aedileship. I
      was especially pleased to see Cn Iulius standing for office, a man great both in
      name and deed. In the minds of many he may not be the most pleasing individual;
      perhaps, however, he is such because he speaks the harsh truth without any sweet
      covering. Whether you may be friend or foe, however, I might think Cn Iulius to
      be known to be a rather dutiful one, so clearly needed in the Curule Aedileship.
      So I too urge you all to elevate him to a curule seat, by voting for Cn Iulius
      Caesar.

      Although I have less to say about others, I support them no less than those I've
      mentioned already. For the Quaestorship I speak in favor of Q Valerius, and C
      Petronius. As I hope, may we see these fine men as Quaestores.

      May we all be in peace,

      Quintus Caecilius Metellus Postumianus
      Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59116 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2008-11-13
      Subject: Re: Fl. Galerius Aurelianus - Support of Candidates
      Re: [Nova-Roma] Fl. Galerius Aurelianus - Support of Candidates
      A. Tullia Scholastica Flavio Galerio Aureliano quiritibus bonae voluntatis S.P.D.

          Thank you very much for your kind words and your endorsement.  As usual, I shall do my best if elected to this position.  

          I would like to thank all who endorsed me; it may take a while to find the posts to reply properly, especially since Yahoo has been ailing with the cyber flu and volume very heavy, but with luck I shall retrieve them, and thank you individually.  

      Vale, et valete.  
       

      Fl. Galerius Aurelianus S.P.D.

      To the Senate and People of Nova Roma, I would like to announce my
      support for the following candidates for office.  These individuals
      are well known to me by our correspondence and their actions on
      behalf of our Res Publica.  I regard each of them with respect and
      affection for their character, their regard for the Virtues, and
      their Romanitas.  Please join your hands to mine that they may be
      elected to continue to give us all their good service:

      For CENSOR - C. Popilleus Laenas, my dear friend and brother, to whom
      I offer my unconditional support.  I know that he will be an
      outstanding Censor in whom the Sentate and People of Nova Roma can
      expect unstinting service and respect for your personal information.

      For CONSULS ˆ Marcus Iulius Severus and Marcus Curiatius
      Complutensis, two worthy individuals who I have come to know and with
      whom I have worked in the past.  Marcus Iulius has an ability to
      communicate well under the most adverse circumstances and this will
      serve the Res Publica well.  Marcus Curiatius has always worked hard
      in service to Nova Roma and these two individuals will make wonderful
      Consuls.

      For PRAETOR ˆ Gnaeus Equitius Marinus brings so much experience to
      this office, that combined with his well-known knowledge of the
      Constitution and Leges, he cannot fail to be excellent as a Praetor.

      For QUAESTOR ˆ While we are fortunate to have the requisite number of
      candidates for this office, I would like to single out three
      individuals who I admire for their talents, tenacity, and
      determination:  Titus Flavius Aquila, Lucia Livia Plauta, and Quintus
      Valerius Poplicola.

      For ROGATOR ˆ Gaius Tullius Valerianus Germanicus and Aula Tullia
      Scholastica are the best candidates for this office.  I firmly
      believe that they will show the same service as Rogatores that they
      have shown in other offices and projects for Nova Roma.

      May all the other candidates receive what is appropriate, auspicious,
      and fortunate by the favor of Dii Immortales.

      Valete.

       
            
         Messages in this topic           <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/59100
      Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59117 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2008-11-13
      Subject: Re: Titus Flavius Aquila - Support of Candidates
      Re: [Nova-Roma] Titus Flavius Aquila  - Support of Candidates
      A. Tullia Scholastica T. Flavio Aquilae quiritibus bonae voluntatis S.P.D.

          Thank you also very much for your kind words and your endorsement.  Herzlichen Dank!  

      Vale, et valete.
       

      T.Flavius Aquila omnibus Quiritibus s.p.d.,

      for the upcoming elections I would like to announce my support for the following candidates for office. The candidates are well known to me by correspondence , by their Romanitas and their actions on behalf of our Res Publica. I regard each of them with high respect .

      For CENSOR – Titus Iulius Sabinus  
      For CONSULS –Marcus Curiatius Complutensis and Marcus Iulius Severus  
      For PRAETOR –  Publius Memmius Albucius and Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
      For Curule Aedile - Gnaeus Iulius Caesar
      For ROGATOR –Aula Tullia Scholastica
      For Diribitor - Marcus Octavius Corvus and Annia Minucia Marcella
      For Custos -  Marcus Lucretius Agricola
       
      For the Plebeian offices
      For Aedilis Plebis - Quintus Caecilius Metellus Pius Postumianus
      For Tribunus Plebis – Flavius Galerius Aurelianus, Appius Galerius Aurelianus and Tiberius Horatius Barbatus
       
      Optime valete.
      Titus Flavius Aquila


       
       
            
         Messages in this topic           <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/59113


      Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59118 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2008-11-13
      Subject: Re: de Candidatis
      Q. Valerius Poplicola Q. Caecilio Quiritibusque S. P. V. D.

      Multas tibi, mi amice, gratias ago! Ego quoque te Flauium
      Aurelianumque tribunos plebis uidere uolo!

      bene uale!

      Many thanks, my friend! I too wish to see you and Flavius Aurelianus
      as tribuni plebis!

      Be well!

      --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Q. Caecilius Metellus"
      <postumianus@...> wrote:
      >
      > Q Caecilius Metellus Quiritibus salutem.
      >
      > de candidatis officia publica petendibus multa et magna dicenda mihi
      est, sed de
      > paucis solum. hos per ordinem maiestatis applaudare uolo. ergo non
      diu morer.
      >
      > primum de C Popillio Laenate, ad censuram petende, dicam. non sine
      decore magno
      > quod poscit nomen adparuit Rei Publicae C Popillius Laenas, senator
      consularis,
      > qui quaestor et praetor et consul adparuit. uocem enim cognosco C
      Popilli
      > rationabilem sanemque, ut mentem, firma et sapiens. in censura,
      officium C
      > Popilli mores publicos sustinere sit, non dubito quin inlustre mores
      sustineat C
      > Popillius Laenas senator. suffrago ad censuram petendi causam, ut
      omnes, pro C
      > Popillio Laenate.
      >
      > secundum dicam de Cn Iulio Caesare, ad aedilitatem curulem petende.
      praesertim
      > mihi lubet petere Cn Iuli Caesaris uidere, uir magnus a facto et
      nomine. in
      > mentibus multorum Cn Iulius sit persona non grata; fortasse autem
      ingratum uisum
      > quod ueritatem acerbam sine uelatione dulce dicat. an ei amicus an
      inimicus es,
      > Cn Iulius omnibus pius cognoscatur, qui clare in aedilitatem curulem
      requiritur.
      > ad dignitatem curulem uos urgeo altare, pro Cn Iulio Caesare
      censentibus.
      >
      > per factum autem minus de alteris dicenda est mihi, non minus
      suffrago. ad
      > quaesturam de Q Ualerio, quem censeo ut fratrem, et C Petronio, quem
      patruum,
      > aduocem. ut spero, quaestores hos uiros aptos uideant.
      >
      > In pacem simus,
      >
      > Quintus Caecilius Metellus Postumianus
      >
      Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59119 From: Robert Levee Date: 2008-11-13
      Subject: Re: Titus Flavius Aquila - Support of Candidates
      Salve Titus Flavius Aquila,

      I do appreciate your support for me as a candidate Tribunus Plebis.
      So,let me thank you and assure you ,I shall do my best to serve the interests of the Ordus Plebis.May the Gods protect you.

      Optime vale,
      Ap.Galerius Aurelianus


      --- On Thu, 11/13/08, Titus Flavius Aquila <titus.aquila@...> wrote:

      > From: Titus Flavius Aquila <titus.aquila@...>
      > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Titus Flavius Aquila - Support of Candidates
      > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Thursday, November 13, 2008, 2:08 AM
      > T.Flavius Aquila omnibus Quiritibus s.p.d.,
      >
      > for the upcoming elections I would like to announce my
      > support for the following candidates for office. The
      > candidates are well known to me by correspondence , by their
      > Romanitas and their actions on behalf of our Res Publica. I
      > regard each of them with high respect .
      >
      > For CENSOR – Titus Iulius Sabinus  
      > For CONSULS –Marcus Curiatius Complutensis and Marcus
      > Iulius Severus  
      > For PRAETOR –  Publius Memmius Albucius and Gnaeus
      > Equitius Marinus
      > For Curule Aedile - Gnaeus Iulius Caesar
      > For ROGATOR –Aula Tullia Scholastica
      > For Diribitor - Marcus Octavius Corvus and Annia Minucia
      > Marcella
      > For Custos -  Marcus Lucretius Agricola
      >  
      > For the Plebeian offices
      > For Aedilis Plebis - Quintus Caecilius Metellus Pius
      > Postumianus
      > For Tribunus Plebis – Flavius Galerius Aurelianus, Appius
      > Galerius Aurelianus and Tiberius Horatius Barbatus
      >  
      > Optime valete.
      > Titus Flavius Aquila 
      Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59120 From: marcushoratius Date: 2008-11-13
      Subject: EIDUS NOVEMBRIS: Epulum Iovis; Feronia
      M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus Quiritibus et omnibus salutem
      plurimam dicit: Diis bene iuvantibus simus.

      Hodie est Eidus Novembris; haec dies nefastus publica est: Feriae
      Iovi, Epulum Iovi ovis idulis, Feroniae in Campo Marti, Fortunae
      Primigeniae in colle, Pietati in foro Holitorio; Ludi in Campo;
      Equorum probation.

      AUC 557 / 196 BCE: Epulones first instituted by the Consilium Plebis

      The Ludi Plebii continues today with the epulum Iovis, or sacred meal
      served to Jupiter by the Plebeian Epules. The epulum Iovis was the
      highlight of the festival, being a meal served from the main
      sacrifice. Originally the Ludi Plebii was only a single day, the
      main sacrifice offered on the Ides. From this sacrifice, then, a meal
      was served to Jupiter. The practice was then taken up at other
      festivals, such as the Ludi Romani. Something to note here is date of
      its introduction coming in the aftermath of the Third Macedonian War.
      This was a time of the great influx of wealth into Rome, benefiting
      the ennobled Plebeians and those who had served in the army under
      them.

      In connection with this festival for Jupiter was one devoted to
      Fortuna Primigenia. Originally Her cultus was found at Praeneste
      where She appears as "Diovos fileai primogeniai," or "the First Born
      Daughter of Jupiter" (CIL 14.2863). In discussing Her cultus, on the
      other hand, Cicero described Jupiter Puer and Juno seated mammam
      appetens on the lap of Fortuna Primogenia (De Div. 2.41.85). That
      is, Fortuna Primogenia was both Mother and Daughter to Jupiter.

      Feronia

      What may have once been the main festival of this day was that held
      for Feronia. Her temple in the Campus Martius appears to have been
      dedicated at the time that the Ludi Plebii were first instituted or
      else shortly earlier. It was in the vicinity of the Circus Flaminius
      in which the ludi Plebii were held. Her main sanctuary, in the
      Sabine territory, lay in a valley between the villages of Trebula
      Suffenas and Trebula Mutusca. Atop Mt Soracte was the Faliscii
      sanctuary of Her consort Soranus, who came to Rome as Apollo Medicus
      and had a temple near the Circus Flaminius just outside the Porta
      Carmentalis. An annual festival at Capena saw the priests of
      Soranus bearing offerings as they walked over hot coals. Soranus
      seems to have originally been a God of Fertility, much as Jupiter was
      in other parts of Italy. The earliest remains of the Faliscian
      sanctuary date to the fifth century. Its greatest period of growth
      came, however, after 266 BCE, up to the time that Hannibal plundered
      the sanctuaries of Feronia and Soranus in 211 BCE. The Romans later
      founded a colonia Feronia at Capena and reintroduced the culti Deorum
      with the priests of Soranus, called hirpini (little wolves) and
      exempted them from paying taxes or from serving in the army. At Rome
      Feronia was celebrated as a Goddess of agricultural produce and She
      was closely associated with freed women. At Her Roman sanctuary at
      Capena it was believed that any who sat upon Her sacred stone would
      gain her freedom, and this custom may have carried over to her cultus
      in Rome. She was identified with Salus and Frugifera, the Goddess
      who "brings forth health and fruitfulness." She was sometimes
      referred to as being a wolf-headed Goddess and may have been
      associated with the she-wolf who suckled Romulus and Remus. Feronia
      was also identified as Angerona, the protective Goddess of Rome who
      true identity was held as a State secret. A statue of Feronia as
      Angerona was kept in the sanctuary of Volupia, where the statue was
      gagged and blindfolded to prevent Her from speaking Her true name.
      The Greeks instead saw Feronia as a Goddess of Flowers. She was thus
      depicted with aspects of Flora, Proserpina, and Venus. To the
      Etruscans, however, Feronia was a Goddess of the Hearth, like Vesta
      or Hestia. As a Goddess who brought youthfulness and health to
      humans and animals alike, Feronia, or Virbia, would have been
      identified with Diana. This association of Feronia's festival on the
      Ides may be the reason that November was held sacred to Diana even
      though no festivals are found dedicated to Diana in the month.


      AUC 572 / 181 BCE: Dedication of a Temple for Pietas in the Forum
      Holitorium.


      AUC 443 / 310 BCE: Curia praerogativa

      "Whilst he was submitting to the Comitia Curiata the resolution
      conferring the Dictatorial power, an unfavourable omen compelled him
      to adjourn the proceedings. It fell to the Faucia curia to vote
      first, and this curia had voted first in the years in which two
      memorable disasters occurred, the capture of the City and the
      capitulation of Caudium. Licinius Macer adds a third disaster through
      which this curia became ill-omened, the massacre at the Cremera." ~
      Livy 9.38.15


      AUC 112 / 641 BCE Tullus Hostilius' war against the Sabines

      "Impelled by the confidence in his strength which these measures
      inspired, Tullus proclaimed war against the Sabines, a nation at that
      time second only to the Etruscans in numbers and military strength.
      Each side had inflicted injuries on the other and refused all
      redress. Tullus complained that Roman traders had been arrested in
      open market at the shrine of Feronia; the Sabines' grievance was that
      some of their people had previously sought refuge in the Asylum and
      been kept in Rome. These were the ostensible grounds of the war. The
      Sabines were far from forgetting that a portion of their strength had
      been transferred to Rome by Tatius, and that the Roman State had
      lately been aggrandised by the inclusion of the population of Alba;
      they, therefore, on their side began to look round for outside help.
      Their nearest neighbour was Etruria, and, of the Etruscans, the
      nearest to them were the Veientines. Their past defeats were still
      rankling in their memories, and the Sabines, urging them to revolt,
      attracted many volunteers; others of the poorest and homeless classes
      were paid to join them. No assistance was given by the State. With
      the Veientes-it is not so surprising that the other cities rendered
      no assistance-the truce with Rome was still held to be binding.
      Whilst preparations were being made on both sides with the utmost
      energy, and it seemed as though success depended upon which side was
      the first to take the offensive, Tullus opened the campaign by
      invading the Sabine territory. A severe action was fought at the
      Silva Malitiosa. Whilst the Romans were strong in their infantry,
      their main strength was in their lately increased cavalry force. A
      sudden charge of horse threw the Sabine ranks into confusion, they
      could neither offer a steady resistance nor effect their flight
      without great slaughter." ~ Livy 1.30


      Our thought for today is from Epictetus' Enchiridion 23

      "If you ever happen to turn your attention to externals, for the
      pleasure of any one, be assured that you have ruined your scheme of
      life. Be contented, then, in everything, with being a philosopher;
      and if you with to seem so likewise to any one, appear so to
      yourself, and it will suffice you."
      Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59121 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2008-11-13
      Subject: Re: Titus Flavius Aquila - Support of Candidates
      Salve Aquila,

      Thank you for the endorsement. Best of luck in your own campaign.

      Vale,

      CN-EQVIT-MARINVS

      Titus Flavius Aquila <titus.aquila@...> writes:

      > T.Flavius Aquila omnibus Quiritibus s.p.d.,
      >
      > for the upcoming elections I would like to announce my support for
      > the following candidates for office. The candidates are well known
      > to me by correspondence , by their Romanitas and their actions on
      > behalf of our Res Publica. I regard each of them with high respect .
      >
      > For CENSOR – Titus Iulius Sabinus  
      > For CONSULS –Marcus Curiatius Complutensis and Marcus Iulius Severus  
      > For PRAETOR –  Publius Memmius Albucius and Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
      > For Curule Aedile - Gnaeus Iulius Caesar
      > For ROGATOR –Aula Tullia Scholastica
      > For Diribitor - Marcus Octavius Corvus and Annia Minucia Marcella
      > For Custos -  Marcus Lucretius Agricola
      >  
      > For the Plebeian offices
      > For Aedilis Plebis - Quintus Caecilius Metellus Pius Postumianus
      > For Tribunus Plebis – Flavius Galerius Aurelianus, Appius Galerius
      > Aurelianus and Tiberius Horatius Barbatus
      >  
      > Optime valete.
      > Titus Flavius Aquila 
      >
      >
      >
      Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59122 From: Colin Brodd Date: 2008-11-13
      Subject: Re: Fl. Galerius Aurelianus - Support of Candidates
      Gaius Tullius Valerianus Germanicus Fl. Galerio Aureliano (quiritibusque) S.P.D.
       
      Salve! I give thanks to you for your endorsement of my candidacy for Rogator. I look forward to the opportunity to serve the Republic!
       
      Vale!

      Data Cranstonia Id. Nov. anno A.U.C. MMDCCLXI
      _________________________________________________________________________________________
      --
      C. TVLLIVS VALERIANVS GERMANICVS

      Legatus Regionis Insulae Rhodensis

      Ad Templum Diis Immortalibus Romae Aedificandum!

      "Qua(e) patres difficillime
      adepti sunt nolite
      turpiter relinquere" -
      Monumentum Bradfordis, Tamaropoli, in civitate Massaciuseta
      (Bradford Monument, Plymouth, MA)

      Check out my books on Goodreads: <a href="http://www.goodreads.com/profile/Valerianus?utm_source=email_widget">http://www.goodreads.com/profile/Valerianus</a>
      Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59123 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2008-11-13
      Subject: Re: Today in Rome: Nov 13, 2008.
      C. Petronius Dexter omnibus Quiritibus s.p.d.,

      > Today in Rome :
      > Natalis dies Matris Feroniae in Campo Martio.
      > Plena Luna.

      As in the gens Petronia, a gens who more particularly worships the
      goddess Feronia, I made a little poetry to Her, "pro populo Novo
      Romano". These verses are Latin hexameters:

      "In viridi luco mater Feronia gaudes,
      Haec est fausta dies tua, sunt Idusque Novembres,
      Et venti folia autumnales aurea deflant,
      Clarae facta rubent et in orbem cornua Phoebes,
      Sed viridi in luco mater Feronia gaudes.
      Servus inivit, qui nunc de luco liber exit.

      Fausta Novae Romae ut sis gensque Petronia poscit.
      Fata Novae Romae clarissima Diva tuere !
      In Campo Martis semper, Feronia, sedes."

      My "verbatim", prosaic and clumsy English translation:

      "In your green grove, mother Feronia, you are glad.
      Because today is your day, they are the Ides of November,
      And winds are blowing the fall's golden leaves,
      And the horns of the clear Phoebe become rounded glow red,
      But in your green grove, mother Feronia, you are glad.
      As slave he came in, who free now comes out of your grove.

      And gens Petronia demands that you should be favourable to Nova Roma.
      Illustrious goddess uphold the destiny of Nova Roma !
      You sit forever in the Campus Martius, Feronia!"

      Valete.

      C. Petronius Dexter
      Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59124 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2008-11-13
      Subject: Ancient Rome (At the Constantine period) in 3D
      C. Petronius omnibus Quiritibus s.p.d.,

      Visit Rome here:
      http://earth.google.fr/intl/fr/rome/

      Salvete.

      C. Petronius Dexter
      Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59125 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2008-11-13
      Subject: Re: de Candidatis
      C. Petronius Q. Caecilio s.p.d.,
       
      Tibi plurimas gratias ago.
       
      Si Q. Valerium fratrem censes, me patruum esse tibi videor. ;o)
       
      Agedum, nepos, suffragia mea habebis et valde spero te Aedilem Plebis creaturum esse.
       
      Optime vale.
       
      C. Petronius Dexter
       
       
      Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59126 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2008-11-13
      Subject: Re: de Candidatis
      C. Petronius Q. Caecilio iterum s.p.d.,

      Ne superbior videar, potius scribam:

      Agedum, nepos, suffragia mea habebis et valde spero te Aedilem Plebis
      fore.

      Optime vale.

      C. Petronius Dexter
      Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59127 From: gaiuspopilliuslaenas Date: 2008-11-13
      Subject: Re: Ancient Rome (At the Constantine period) in 3D
      Laenas Dexter sal.

      Very nice. Thank you.

      --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Petronius Dexter"
      <jfarnoud94@...> wrote:
      >
      > C. Petronius omnibus Quiritibus s.p.d.,
      >
      > Visit Rome here:
      > http://earth.google.fr/intl/fr/rome/
      >
      > Salvete.
      >
      > C. Petronius Dexter
      >
      Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59128 From: Lucius Iulius Regulus Date: 2008-11-13
      Subject: Re: Ancient Rome (At the Constantine period) in 3D
      Salve,
       
      This is a great addition to Google Earth. It really is amazing. Thanks for posting it here.
       
      Lucius Iulius Regulus


      From: Gaius Petronius Dexter <jfarnoud94@...>
      To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 11:19:23 AM
      Subject: [Nova-Roma] Ancient Rome (At the Constantine period) in 3D

      C. Petronius omnibus Quiritibus s.p.d.,

      Visit Rome here:
      http://earth. google.fr/ intl/fr/rome/

      Salvete.

      C. Petronius Dexter


      Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59129 From: L Julia Aquila Date: 2008-11-13
      Subject: Re: Today in Rome: Nov 13, 2008.
      Salve Dexter,

      That is a beautiful offering, Feronia will indulge you! The muses
      were dancing around you for certain!

      I implore you to post it in the ForTheMuses ML if you have not
      already.

      Vale,

      Julia Aquila

      --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Petronius Dexter"
      <jfarnoud94@...> wrote:
      >
      > C. Petronius Dexter omnibus Quiritibus s.p.d.,
      >
      > > Today in Rome :
      > > Natalis dies Matris Feroniae in Campo Martio.
      > > Plena Luna.
      >
      > As in the gens Petronia, a gens who more particularly worships the
      > goddess Feronia, I made a little poetry to Her, "pro populo Novo
      > Romano". These verses are Latin hexameters:
      >
      > "In viridi luco mater Feronia gaudes,
      > Haec est fausta dies tua, sunt Idusque Novembres,
      > Et venti folia autumnales aurea deflant,
      > Clarae facta rubent et in orbem cornua Phoebes,
      > Sed viridi in luco mater Feronia gaudes.
      > Servus inivit, qui nunc de luco liber exit.
      >
      > Fausta Novae Romae ut sis gensque Petronia poscit.
      > Fata Novae Romae clarissima Diva tuere !
      > In Campo Martis semper, Feronia, sedes."
      >
      > My "verbatim", prosaic and clumsy English translation:
      >
      > "In your green grove, mother Feronia, you are glad.
      > Because today is your day, they are the Ides of November,
      > And winds are blowing the fall's golden leaves,
      > And the horns of the clear Phoebe become rounded glow red,
      > But in your green grove, mother Feronia, you are glad.
      > As slave he came in, who free now comes out of your grove.
      >
      > And gens Petronia demands that you should be favourable to Nova
      Roma.
      > Illustrious goddess uphold the destiny of Nova Roma !
      > You sit forever in the Campus Martius, Feronia!"
      >
      > Valete.
      >
      > C. Petronius Dexter
      >
      Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59130 From: L Julia Aquila Date: 2008-11-13
      Subject: Re: Ancient Rome (At the Constantine period) in 3D
      Salve!

      As always wonderful!

      Vale

      Julia Aquila

      --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Lucius Iulius Regulus
      <luciusjul25@...> wrote:
      >
      > Salve,
      >
      > This is a great addition to Google Earth. It really is amazing.
      Thanks for posting it here.
      >
      > Lucius Iulius Regulus
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: Gaius Petronius Dexter <jfarnoud94@...>
      > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 11:19:23 AM
      > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Ancient Rome (At the Constantine period) in 3D
      >
      >
      > C. Petronius omnibus Quiritibus s.p.d.,
      >
      > Visit Rome here:
      > http://earth. google.fr/ intl/fr/rome/
      >
      > Salvete.
      >
      > C. Petronius Dexter
      >
      Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59131 From: Publius Memmius Albucius Date: 2008-11-13
      Subject: Confirmation request on the current rogationes
      P. Memmius Albucius Cos. Moravi s.d.

      Our Centuriata contio is ending tomorrow 5:00 pm Rome time.

      I know that several cives have brought contributions to you in order
      that you be able to propose to the Comitia Centuriata new/amended
      rogationes (draft laws).

      I may mistake, but it seems that you have probably not ended your
      work on them, for I cannot see any letter from you modifying your
      initial announce (58887).

      Can you confirm your intention to propose the comitia amended
      rogationes, and if yes, when you will be able to issue them here, in
      this ML, so that those of us who would wish reacting on your
      developments be able to do it normally ?

      Tibi gratias Consul et vale,


      P. Memmius Albucius
      cand. pr.
      Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59133 From: M•IVL•SEVERVS Date: 2008-11-13
      Subject: Re: Titus Flavius Aquila - Support of Candidates
      Severus Aquilae s.d.
       
      Thank you very much for your support, dear friend.
      You know very well that you also have mine.
      I truly appreciate your Romanitas and your high sense of responsibility towards our Res publica.
       
      Optime vale,

      M•IVL•SEVERVS
      CANDIDATVS•CONSVL

      Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59134 From: Tiberius Horatius Barbatus Date: 2008-11-13
      Subject: Re: Titus Flavius Aquila - Support of Candidates
      Salve Aquila,

      Thank you for your kind endorsement and good luck with your candidacy.

      Vale

      Ti. Horatius
      Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59135 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2008-11-13
      Subject: Re: Opposing the proposed laws
      Cn. Iulius Caesar Quiritibus sal.

      Having thought some more on the proposed laws, one part is slightly
      puzzling, namely what is the practical gain from extracting the
      limits on numbers of censors, consuls, praetors etc. from the
      Constitution and placing it under the cover of legislation?

      Events in Nova Roma move slowly, sometimes very slowly. There is no
      conceivable situation that I can think of that would require the
      reduction or increase of magistrate numbers within a short order of
      time, and the ability to respond quickly has I think been alluded to
      as a reason and benefit for these proposed changes.

      Additionally, the benefit of the time difference between retaining
      these provisions in the Constitution, set against having them
      controlled by law and trying to effect change is small.

      Currently were a change to be required in the number of magistrates,
      the matter would have to pass the vote in this comitia and then go to
      the Senate for a discussion and pass the vote there before the
      constitutional change took effect.

      If the proposals go forward any actual changes to the numbers of
      magistrates will no longer be counted as a constitutional change, and
      therefore the Senate would not have to also ratify the measure. How
      much time would we gain in reality by excluding the Senate from this
      process? I say minimal and in any case certainly not worth
      sacrificing the final protection of Senatorial deliberation and vote.

      Or...is it that this way magistrates can draft proposed changes to
      increase or decrease their numbers without the tiresome bother of
      having to convince a concerned Senate?

      On a final note, especially again for new citizens, recall that I
      talked yesterday on the matter of century points? Well were the
      number of magistrate positions to increase (I discussed the risks of
      decreasing yesterday), say an increase in the number of praetors, are
      you aware that once their term of office is over ex-praetors, ex-
      consuls, and ex-censors have an automatic right to sit and vote in
      the Senate, by virtue of their past service?

      So let us imagine a scenario, namely these laws pass and before next
      year's elections you are convinced to support legislation to increase
      the number of praetorial positions from the current 2 to lets say 8
      (pick any number). In November of 2009, another 6 praetors could have
      a voice and a vote in the Senate, but it doesn't end with their term
      of office. Those extra 6 praetors could continue to sit and vote in
      the Senate without being Senators, AND, have a place in an
      established legal chain of precedence for future selection as actual
      Senators.

      So hypothetically within 12 months citizens if you pass these meaures
      into law and subsequently ratify increases in the senior magistrate
      positions, you could see the Senate fall under the grip of a unified
      voting clique. What happens if the interests and motivations of such
      a, hypothetical, clique were not benign? Basically citizens you would
      have handed the Nova Roman Senate over to such a, hypothetical, group.

      This is to me too great a risk and whatever the possible touted
      benefits of these laws I continue to encourage you to vote NO to
      these laws.

      Prevention is better than cure citizens.

      Valete bene


      --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L Julia Aquila" <dis_pensible@...>
      wrote:
      >
      >
      > Aquila Caesari Omnibusque.
      >
      > Thank you for this wonderful explanation of century points.
      >
      >
      Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59136 From: Complutensis Date: 2008-11-13
      Subject: ELECCIONES
      Attachments :
        Salvete omnes civibus Hispaniae

        Como recordatorio a todos: estamos en pleno proceso electoral. Muchos
        ciudadanos de la Orden Plebeya ya habrán votado en los Plebiscita convocados
        para derogar dos leyes, pero mañana día 15 comienzan las votaciones para las
        elecciones en serio.

        Por favor tened encuenta lo siguiente para que vuestro voto sea valido:

        Mañana dia 15 podrán votar solo los miembros de la Centuria Praerogativa.
        Dicha Centuria será elegida al hazar y comunicada a todos. Los votos
        emitidos mañana por miembros de otras centurias no serán validos.

        El dia 17 podrán votar los miembros de las Centurias de Primera Clase. La
        Primera Clase está compuesta por las Centurias I a XVI

        A partir del día 20 y hasta el 24 podrá votar todo el mundo.

        Los candidatos que se presentan a los diversos cargos están listados en
        http://www.novaroma.org/nr/ES:Election_MMDCCLXI_(Nova_Roma) y los que
        cuentan con mi apoyo para los diferentes cargos son:

        Titus Iulius Sabinus para Censor
        Yo mismo para Consul
        Mi colega mexicano Marcus Iulius Severus para ser mi colega en el Consulado
        Para Praetores se presentan solo Gn. Equitius Marinus y Memmius Albucius dos
        personas muy validas para el cargo
        Para Edil Curul se presenta en solitario Gn Iulius Caesar
        Para Queastores tampoco hay lucha:hay 8 vacantes y 8 candidatos
        Para Rogatores mis preferidos son Gaius Tullius y Titus Arminius
        Para Diribitores hay 4 vacantes y 4 candidatos
        Para Custodes pasa lo mismo 2 vacantes y 2 candidatos
        Para Aedilis Plebis solo hay un candidato
        Y por ultimo para Tribunos de la plebe hay 5 puestos y 5 candidatos

        Os recuerdo que debeis marcar sí o no o abstención al lado de cada candidato

        Durante estas elecciones también se votarán una serie de enmiendas
        constitucionales que no me gustan nada en absoluto a pesar de ser bastante
        vanguardistas. Lo mismo poner si, no o abstención al lado de cada una.

        Os espero en los Comitia y vigilaré porqué voteis

        Curate ut valete
        M·CVR·COMPLVTENSIS
        Praetor Novae Romae

        Senator
        Praetor Hispaniae
        Scriba Censoris K·F·B·M
        Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59137 From: Titus Iulius Sabinus Date: 2008-11-13
        Subject: Re: Opposing the proposed laws
        SALVE CAESAR ET SALVETE!

        --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gnaeus Iulius Caesar"
        <gn_iulius_caesar@...> wrote:

        > Having thought some more on the proposed laws, one part is slightly
        > puzzling, namely what is the practical gain from extracting the
        > limits on numbers of censors, consuls, praetors etc. from the
        > Constitution and placing it under the cover of legislation?>>>

        In fact the current form of the rogationes is very clear in the
        censors and consuls case:
        Rogatio de censoribus:
        "Hereby shall IV.A.1 be amended to:
        IV.A.1: Censor: In any year following the conduct of a census two
        censors shall be elected by the comitia centuriata to serve a
        collegial term..."
        http://tinyurl.com/5vjmgm

        Rogatio de consulibus:
        "Hereby shall the first paragraph of IV.A.2 be amended to:
        IV.A.2: Consuls: Two consuls shall be elected annually by the Comitia
        Centuriata to serve a term..."
        http://tinyurl.com/5jc6mj

        So, in both cases is not an extracting of the number. The number
        remains as it is.

        In the rogationes de praetoribus, aedilibus curulibus, aedilibus
        plebis, quaestoribus and tribunis plebis, yes, the limits of number
        is extracting.
        I agree that some cases is not good choice. In the ancient Roman
        Republic the collegiality in offices was important. We must preserve
        that.
        My hope is that the convening magistrate, my colleague Piscinus, will
        take in consideration all the discussions until now and these
        rogationes will be presented in another form more correct and
        accurate.
        I know that the time flies and if another form of these rogations is
        they must be presented as soon as possible to this list, how Albucius
        already pointed out.

        VALE ET VALETE,
        IVL SABINVS
        Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59138 From: iulius sabinus Date: 2008-11-13
        Subject: Re: Titus Flavius Aquila - Support of Candidates
        SALVE!

        --- On Thu, 11/13/08, Titus Flavius Aquila <titus.aquila@...> wrote:

        T.Flavius Aquila omnibus Quiritibus s.p.d.,


        for the upcoming elections I would like to announce my support for the following candidates for office. The candidates are well known to me by correspondence , by their Romanitas and their actions on behalf of our Res Publica. I regard each of them with high respect .

        For CENSOR – Titus Iulius Sabinus >>>

        Thank you very much for you support. I'm honored by your good appreciation. 

         

        If elected I will follow the same principle I had from the first day I joined Nova Roma: equilibrium in all, nothing in excess. I think this is good principle for a censor to follow.

         

        Success in elections, too!

         

        VALETE,

        IVL SABINVS

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        Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59139 From: M•IVL•SEVERVS Date: 2008-11-13
        Subject: ELECCIONES

        Salvete omnibus civibus Mexici

        Como recordatorio a todos: estamos en pleno proceso electoral. Muchos ciudadanos del Orden Plebeyo habrán votado ya en los plebiscita convocados para derogar dos leyes, pero mañana, día 15, comienzan las votaciones para las magistraturas y las enmiendas constitucionales y legales, esto es, donde más cuenta el voto.

        Por favor no pierdan de vista lo siguiente para que su voto sea valido:

        Mañana, día 15, podrán votar solamente los miembros de la Centuria Praerogativa. Dicha Centuria será elegida al azar y se anunciará públicamente en nuestros foros. Los votos emitidos mañana por miembros de otras centurias no serán validos.

        El día 17 podrán votar los miembros de las Centurias de Primera Clase. La Primera Clase está compuesta por las Centurias I a XVI.

        A partir del día 20 y hasta el 24, podrán votar todas las ciudadanas y todos los ciudadanos de Nova Roma.

        Los candidatos que se presentan a los diversos cargos están listados en http://www.novaroma .org/nr/ES: Election_ MMDCCLXI_(Nova_Roma) y los que cuentan con mi apoyo son:

        Titus Iulius Sabinus para Censor.

        Yo mismo para Cónsul.

        Mi colega hispano Marcus Coriatius Complutensis para ser mi colega en el Consulado.

        Para Praetores, se presentan sólo Gn. Equitius Marinus y P. Memmius Albucius, dos ciudadanos valiosos, con méritos más que suficientes para que votemos por ellos.

        Para Edil Curul se presenta en solitario Gn Iulius Caesar.

        Para Queastores hay ocho vacantes y tenemos ocho candidatos. Debo destacar la presencia de mi amigo T. Flavius Aquila, Legatus Pro Praetore de Germania, así como de otros dos excelentes ciudadanos, L. Livia Plauta y G. Petronius Dexter.

        Para Rogatores les recomiendo a T. Arminius Genialis y G. Tullius Valerianus Germanicus.

        Para Diribitores hay cuatro vacantes y cuatro candidatos, pero quiero destacar la candidatura de mi excelente amigo y amigo de la Provincia México , M. Octavius Corvus, Legatus Pro Praetore de Sarmatia.

        Para Custodes pasa lo mismo dos vacantes y dos candidatos.

        Para Aedilis Plebis sólo hay un candidato.

        Y por último, para Tribunos de la plebe hay cinco puestos y cinco candidatos.

        Recuerden que deben marcar sí o no o abstención, al lado de cada candidato.

        Durante estas elecciones también se votará una serie de enmiendas constitucionales que no me acaban de convencer, pese a que contienen elementos positivos. También en este caso hay que marcar sí, no o abstención al lado de cada una.

        Les espero en los Comitia y estaré al pendiente de que todos los ciudadanos de la Provincia México cumplan con su deber.

        M•IVL•SEVERVS
        PRÆTOR•NOVÆ•ROMÆ

        SENATOR
        PRÆTOR•PROVINCIÆ•MEXICO
        ACCENSVS•CONSVLVM•T• IVLII•SABINI•ET•M•MORAVII•PISCINI
        SCRIBA•CENSORIS•K•F•B•M
        INTERPRETER
        MVSÆVS•COLLEGII•ERATOVS•SODALITATIS•MVSARVM
        SOCIVS•CHORI•MVSARVM

        Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59140 From: Cn. Cornelius Lentulus Date: 2008-11-13
        Subject: 10th Anniverarsy of Nova Roma - Sacred Year of Concordance - Concord
        Cn. Cornelius Lentulus, pontifex, sacerdos Concordiae, sacerdos Pannoniae,
        quaestor, legatus pro praetore: consulibus, praetoribus, tribunis
        plebis, senatui populoque Novo Romano, Quiritibus: salutem plurimam:

        Salvete, Quirites!

        May Goddess Concordance bless you all.

        Slowly, the end of Concordia's Sacred Year approaches us. These are getting to be my last Kalends and Ides sacrifices about our Tenth Anniversary. Nova Roma is 10 years old, and honouring this Tenth Anniversary I follow my vow and pray to Concordia constantly on every Kalends and Ides.

        This year of Nova Roma is all about making an end of internal conflicts and hate, and starting to think in terms of friendship, cooperation, common dreams, unity, development and concordance.

        This is 2761 AUC: the year of Goddess Concordance.

        This ritual, like the previous one, is focused on the concordance and peace between cultores deorum and Christians. This is a conflict within Nova Roma that should end and be converted into peace and mutual understanding as soon as possible in order to achieve a real and sincere pax deorum.

        This has been the ritual for the Ides of November.

        Please, citizens of Nova Roma, concentrate now your prayers on the creative cooperation of the citizenry and successful development of Nova Roma!

        Help me with your prayers to make more effective my sacrifice!

        PLEASE SEND YOUR PRAYERS TO MY E-MAIL ADDRESS!

        I especially ask our Magistrates and Senators: send me your prayers to
        Concordia and I will allocate them in the Virtual Temple of Concordia of the Nova Roman People:

        http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Aedes_Concordiae_Populi_Novi_Romani_%28Nova_Roma%29

        Visit the Virtual Temple of Concordia and leave a personal, public prayer!

        PLEASE SEND YOUR PRAYERS TO MY E-MAIL ADDRESS!

        Today's sacrifice has been done before my home altar. I have worshiped
        Concordia for the unity, peace, strengthen and harmony of the New Roman People and I have given Her wine and incense. The ritual has been this:


        +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

        SACRIFICIUM CONCORDIAE IDIBUS NOVEMBRIBUS ANNIVERSARII SACRI X NOVAE ROMAE CONDITAE



        Favete linguis!

        (Beginning of the sacrifice.)

        PRAEFATIO

        Concordia Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
        Concordia Novae Romae,
        Dea pacis et salutis et gloriae Populi Novi Romani Quiritium
        Dea caritatis et amicitiae et fraternitatis,
        te hoc ture commovendo
        bonas preces precor,
        uti sies volens propitia
        Populo Novo Romano Quiritibus,
        mihi, domo, familiae!

        (Incense is placed in the focus of the altar.)

        Concordia Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
        Concordia Novae Romae,
        Dea pacis et salutis et gloriae Populi Novi Romani Quiritium
        Dea caritatis et amicitiae et fraternitatis,
        uti te ture commovendo
        bonas preces precatus sum,
        eiusdem rei ergo
        macte vino inferio esto!

        (Libation of wine is made.)

        PRECATIO

        Concordia Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
        Concordia Novae Romae,
        Dea pacis et salutis et gloriae Populi Novi Romani Quiritium
        Dea caritatis et amicitiae et fraternitatis,
        spes et victoria nostra,
        hisce Idibus Novembribus anni undecimi Novae Romae conditae,
        te precor, veneror, quaesoque obtestorque:
        uti pacem concordiamque constantem
        societati Novae Romae tribuas;
        uti Christianos Novos Romanos et cultores deorum maiorum antiquorum
        in pace amicitiaque et fraternitate coniungas,
        utique Rem Publicam Populi Novi Romani Quiritium
        confirmes, augeas, adiuves,
        omnibusque discordiis liberes;
        utique Res Publica Populi Novi Romani Quiritium semper floreat;
        atque hoc anno anniversarii decimi Novae Romae conditae convalescat;
        atque pax et concordia, salus et gloria Novae Romae omni tempore crescat,
        utique Populo Novo Romano Quiritibus,
        Reique Publicae Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
        mihi, domo, familiae
        omnes in hoc anno undecimo Novae Romae eventus bonos faustosque esse siris;
        utique sies volens propitia Populo Novo Romano Quiritibus,
        Reique Publicae Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
        magistratibus, consulibus, praetoribus Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
        tribunis Plebis Novae Romanae,
        Senatui Novo Romano,
        omnibus civibus, viris et mulieribus, pueris et puellabus Novis Romanis,
        mihi, domo, familiae!

        SACRIFICIUM

        Sicut verba nuncupavi,
        quaeque ita faxis, uti ego me sentio dicere:
        harum rerum ergo macte
        hoc vino libando,
        hoc ture ommovendo
        esto fito volens propitia
        hoc anno anniversarii decimi Novae Romae conditae
        Populo Novo Romano Quiritibus,
        Reique Publicae Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
        magistratibus, consulibus, praetoribus Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
        tribunis Plebis Novae Romanae,
        Senatui Novo Romano,
        Christianis Novis Romanis et cultoribus deorum maiorum antiquorum,
        omnibus civibus, viris et mulierbus, pueris et puellabus Novis Romanis,
        mihi, domo, familiae!

        (Libation is made and incense is sacrificed.)

        REDDITIO

        Concordia Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
        Concordia Novae Romae,
        Dea pacis et salutis et gloriae Populi Novi Romani Quiritium
        Dea caritatis et amicitiae et fraternitatis,
        uti te ture commovendo
        et vino libando
        bonas preces precatus sum,
        earundem rerum ergo
        macte vino inferio esto!

        (Libation of wine is made)

        Ilicet!

        (End of the sacrifice.)

        PIACULUM

        Iane,
        Concordia Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
        Iuppiter Optime Maxmime, Iuno, Minerva,
        Omnes Di Immortales quocumque nomine:
        si quidquam vobis in hac caerimonia displicet,
        hoc vino inferio
        veniam peto
        et vitium meum expio.

        (Libation of wine is made.)


        VALETE IN CONCORDIA!


        Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus,
        Q U A E S T O R
        P O N T I F E X
        SACERDOS CONCORDIAE
        ------------------------------------------
        Legatus Pro Praetore Provinciae Pannoniae
        Sacerdos Provinciae Pannoniae
        Interpres Linguae Hungaricae
        Accensus Consulum T. Iulii Sabini et M. Moravii Piscini
        Scriba Praetorum M. Curiatii Complutensis et M. Iulii Severi
        Scriba Aedilis Curulis P. Memmii Albucii
        Scriba Rogatoris Cn. Equitii Marini
        Scriba Interpretis Linguae Latinae A. Tulliae Scholasticae
        -------------------------------------------
        Magister Sodalitatis Latinitatis
        Dominus Factionis Russatae
        Latinista, Classicus Philologus


        Unisciti alla community di Io fotografo e video, il nuovo corso di fotografia di Gazzetta dello sport:
        http://www.flickr.com/groups/iofotografoevideo
        Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59141 From: Titus Arminius Genialis Date: 2008-11-13
        Subject: EM QUEM VOU VOTAR ESTE ANO
        Titus Arminius Genialis omnibus SPD
         
        Aos que ainda estão indecisos em quem votar nas eleições deste ano, tomo a liberdade de recomendar as seguintes pessoas, todas elas muito capacitadas e confiáveis para os cargos aos quais se propuseram assumir:
         
        Para Censor, Titus Iulius Sabinus
        Para Cônsules, Marcus Curtiatius Complutensis e Marcus Iulius Severus
        Para Quaestor, Gaius Arminius Reccanellus e Lucius Gratius Nerva
        Para Rogatores, Aula Tullia Scholastica e eu, Titus Arminius Genialis
        Para Edil da Plebe, Quintus Caecilius Metellus Pius Postumianus
         
        NÃO DEIXEM DE PARTICIPAR! VOTEM!
        FAÇAM NOVA ROMA SE TORNAR CADA VEZ MAIS DEMOCRÁTICA.
         
        Valete optime
        Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59142 From: Lucia Livia Plauta Date: 2008-11-13
        Subject: Re: Voting on the proposed laws
        L. Livia P. Memmio sal.

        yes, you are wrong.
        All the rogationes were announced and can be found on the election page.
        No annexion happened.

        Optime vale,
        Livia

        --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Publius Memmius Albucius"
        <albucius_aoe@...> wrote:
        >
        > Liviae s.d.
        >
        > Independantly of the value of the matter, am I wrong, or you are
        > displaying new Rogationes items that have not yet been communicated
        > by the Consuls ? Has the tribunate been annexed by the consulate ? ;-)
        >
        > Vale bene,
        >
        >
        > P. Memmius Albucius
        >
        >
        > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucia Livia Plauta" <cases@>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > L.Livia Plauta tribuna plebis omnibus quiritibus S.P.D.
        > >
        > > I am still convinced that consul Piscinus' proposals have more
        > > advantages than disadvantages, and that our citizens are mature
        > enough
        > > to prevent any dire consequences in case they pass.
        > >
        > > However I have collected here a list of the Rogationes which seem
        > not
        > > to have caused any heated discussions and are thus safe to be
        > approved.
        > >
        > > I ask the citizens to vote YES at least on the following proposals.
        > > In the Comitia Centuriata:
        > >
        > > - Rogatio Moravia Iulia de ratione comitiorum centuriatorum
        > >
        > > This is the law that would abolish sequencial voting, which has
        > been a
        > > thorn in the side to all concerned for ages.
        > >
        > > - Rogatio Moravia Iulia de consulibus
        > >
        > > This law only allows additional tasks for the consuls to be decided
        > by
        > > law. It doesn't change their number.
        > >
        > > - Rogatio Moravia Iulia de quaestoribus
        > >
        > > This law makes the number of quaestores independent from that of
        > > magistrates. This means that they could be more if necessary, or
        > less,
        > > if there are few candidates.
        > >
        > > - Rogatio Moravia Iulia de curatore aerarii
        > >
        > > This law gives a bit more recognition, and century points to the
        > > curator aerarii, the person who has one of the hardest and most
        > > important tasks in NR, accounting.
        > >
        > >
        > > In the Comitia Populi Tributa:
        > >
        > > - Rogatio Moravia Iulia de tributo virgines vestales (this should
        > read
        > > in correct Latin "de tributo virginibus vestalibus")
        > >
        > > This law exempts vestal virgins from paying taxes. We know how hard
        > it
        > > is to get volunteers for this position. A minimal incentive like
        > this
        > > is better than nothing.
        > >
        >
        Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59143 From: Lucia Livia Plauta Date: 2008-11-13
        Subject: T. Iulius Sabinus for Censor!
        L. Livia Plauta omnibus quiritibus S.P.D.


        For most magistracies there are as many candidates as places, so while
        I do support most of the candidates, it's superfluous to point it out,
        because the best way to serve the res publica is to vote for them all.

        For Tribuni Plebis there is one more candidate than places, but as a
        current tribune I feel it's not my place to advise on who NOT to vote for.

        But the race for the Censura is the most competitive one this year, so
        I have to repeat my endorsement of T. Iulius Sabinus.

        I consider him a good friend, and I had the chance to spend several
        days with him this summer, so I can guarantee that he's a person of
        exceptional integrity, and the embodiment of many roman virtues (I
        know the people who haven't met him might not believe be, but really!)
        He is a very balanced and diplomatic person, the best choice for a
        post of responsibility like the Censura. He will never issue a nota
        unless it's totally justified, and only after attempts have been made
        to solve the matter by other means.


        Vote for Sabinus!
        Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59144 From: M•IVL•SEVERVS Date: 2008-11-13
        Subject: Re: EM QUEM VOU VOTAR ESTE ANO
        Salve amice,
         
        Muito obrigado!
         
        Vale bene,
         
        M•IVL•SEVERVS
        CANDIDATVS•CONSVL

        Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59145 From: Publius Memmius Albucius Date: 2008-11-13
        Subject: Re: Voting on the proposed laws
        Liviae tribuno s.d.

        > No annexion happened.

        Ahhh !!! Good ! But why do you again, as tribune, answer for the
        consulate (see beneath) ?!!!


        > All the rogationes were announced and can be found on the election
        page.

        Ah? I did not know, because I had not even the idea to go checking
        this page, having waited for a message, here, in this ML, amending
        the first one. If I am not wrong, the elections page(s) are not the
        place where to post legal amendments, no ?

        They should be posted either in the relevant comitia list (here CC)
        or in the list where the first draft has been issued (this ML).

        Have I missed some new law about the new role of the elections page ?


        Vale bene Livia,


        Albucius




        --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucia Livia Plauta" <cases@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > L. Livia P. Memmio sal.
        >
        > yes, you are wrong.
        > All the rogationes were announced and can be found on the election
        page.
        > No annexion happened.
        >
        > Optime vale,
        > Livia
        >
        > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Publius Memmius Albucius"
        > <albucius_aoe@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Liviae s.d.
        > >
        > > Independantly of the value of the matter, am I wrong, or you are
        > > displaying new Rogationes items that have not yet been
        communicated
        > > by the Consuls ? Has the tribunate been annexed by the
        consulate ? ;-)
        > >
        > > Vale bene,
        > >
        > >
        > > P. Memmius Albucius
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucia Livia Plauta" <cases@>
        > > wrote:
        > > >
        > > > L.Livia Plauta tribuna plebis omnibus quiritibus S.P.D.
        > > >
        > > > I am still convinced that consul Piscinus' proposals have more
        > > > advantages than disadvantages, and that our citizens are mature
        > > enough
        > > > to prevent any dire consequences in case they pass.
        > > >
        > > > However I have collected here a list of the Rogationes which
        seem
        > > not
        > > > to have caused any heated discussions and are thus safe to be
        > > approved.
        > > >
        > > > I ask the citizens to vote YES at least on the following
        proposals.
        > > > In the Comitia Centuriata:
        > > >
        > > > - Rogatio Moravia Iulia de ratione comitiorum centuriatorum
        > > >
        > > > This is the law that would abolish sequencial voting, which has
        > > been a
        > > > thorn in the side to all concerned for ages.
        > > >
        > > > - Rogatio Moravia Iulia de consulibus
        > > >
        > > > This law only allows additional tasks for the consuls to be
        decided
        > > by
        > > > law. It doesn't change their number.
        > > >
        > > > - Rogatio Moravia Iulia de quaestoribus
        > > >
        > > > This law makes the number of quaestores independent from that of
        > > > magistrates. This means that they could be more if necessary,
        or
        > > less,
        > > > if there are few candidates.
        > > >
        > > > - Rogatio Moravia Iulia de curatore aerarii
        > > >
        > > > This law gives a bit more recognition, and century points to the
        > > > curator aerarii, the person who has one of the hardest and most
        > > > important tasks in NR, accounting.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > In the Comitia Populi Tributa:
        > > >
        > > > - Rogatio Moravia Iulia de tributo virgines vestales (this
        should
        > > read
        > > > in correct Latin "de tributo virginibus vestalibus")
        > > >
        > > > This law exempts vestal virgins from paying taxes. We know how
        hard
        > > it
        > > > is to get volunteers for this position. A minimal incentive
        like
        > > this
        > > > is better than nothing.
        > > >
        > >
        >
        Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59146 From: Maior Date: 2008-11-13
        Subject: Re: T. Iulius Sabinus for Censor!
        -M.Hortensia Quiritibus spd;
        I totally agree, though Laenas is a fine person, I must speak for
        Sabinus who is both a pontifex and a European, this will give the
        censors, balance and he's been an excellent consul this year.

        I'm also really happy to see our next consules from provinces
        Hispania and Mexico.
        bene valete in pacem deorum
        M. Hortensia Maior


        >
        > L. Livia Plauta omnibus quiritibus S.P.D.
        >
        >
        > For most magistracies there are as many candidates as places, so
        while
        > I do support most of the candidates, it's superfluous to point it
        out,
        > because the best way to serve the res publica is to vote for them
        all.
        >
        > For Tribuni Plebis there is one more candidate than places, but as
        a
        > current tribune I feel it's not my place to advise on who NOT to
        vote for.
        >
        > But the race for the Censura is the most competitive one this
        year, so
        > I have to repeat my endorsement of T. Iulius Sabinus.
        >
        > I consider him a good friend, and I had the chance to spend several
        > days with him this summer, so I can guarantee that he's a person of
        > exceptional integrity, and the embodiment of many roman virtues (I
        > know the people who haven't met him might not believe be, but
        really!)
        > He is a very balanced and diplomatic person, the best choice for a
        > post of responsibility like the Censura. He will never issue a nota
        > unless it's totally justified, and only after attempts have been
        made
        > to solve the matter by other means.
        >
        >
        > Vote for Sabinus!
        >
        Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59147 From: D. Iunius Palladius (La Plume) Date: 2008-11-13
        Subject: Candidate endorsements--and vote no on most of the laws
        Salvete cives,

        For what it's worth, in this year of almost entirely uncontested races, I offer the following candidate endorsements:

        Censor: Gaius Popillius Laenas

        Laenas has worked his way up the cursus honorum and has not held an office for several years. He has lots of Nova Roman and macro world experience that has prepared him to be the next censor. He is approachable and is a moderate man with sound judgment. There is no one better suited to this office and it is an honor a long time coming.

        Praetor:

        Nova Roma is fortunate to have two good candidates this year, and of course you should vote for both. However, I want to especially call the attention of the voters to Publius Memmius Albucius, one of this year's curule aediles and a senator from Gallia.

        He clearly has a sharp legal mind but what is more, he is unfailingly polite and will go out of his way to help a fellow Nova Roman. Too often Nova Romans forget that they are dealing with fellow human beings when they say the things they do in this forum. He does not.

        Curule Aedile:

        It is no surprise that I am endorsing my Nova Roman brother-in-law for Curule aedile--who happens to be running as the only candidate. Witty, smart, and diligent are only a few of the terms to describe him, someone who never fails to accurately get right to the heart of any matter. You would serve Nova Roma well by giving him your vote.

        Tribune of the plebs:
        I am a patrician and cannot vote for Tribune but if I could, I would vote for Tiberius Horatius Barbatus. In the time since he has joined us he has served our governor and province tirelessly. His organizational skills, people skills and dedication to Nova Roma are evident in anything he does.

        And of course, cives, vote against all the laws except the law that eliminates that nightmare of sequential voting!

        Valete,

        Palladius,
        Senator censorius
        Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59148 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2008-11-13
        Subject: Re: Opposing the proposed laws
        Cn. Iulius Caesar T. Iulio Sabino Quiritibusque sal.

        Currently there are no proposals regarding the censors and consuls -
        correct. My concern is once we set the precedent on other offices
        more will follow.

        Since, however, you have raised the issue of the censors and consuls
        I would like to address specifically the proposals in respect of
        those offices.

        As far as the proposal in respect of the Censor is concerned, it
        makes more sense to me to leave the office as it is for the moment.
        It works well having one Censor with experience still in office when
        a new one is elected. It certainly seems to have helped in the
        transition to have the security of one experienced Censor able to
        give counsel and guidance to someone new to the position. Voting two
        new candidates into the Censor's role, where neither has any recent
        or relevant experience seems foolhardy. Sensible steps to historical
        accuracy with considerably more consultation and study than has
        happened on these proposals should be the order of the day.

        As to the Consuls I am exceptionally uncomfortable with the concept
        of giving that office an open writ of interference in any as yet
        unspecified area. Either those proposing and backing this have an
        idea of what new areas they feel the Consul should have
        responsibility for, or they don't. If the former then they should
        tell us openly and argue for an extension of the Constitution's
        spectrum of responsibilities. If the latter, then clearly there can
        be no need and this is a spurious proposal. since I doubt the latter,
        perhaps it is time to tell us what areas they wish to interfere in
        now. The office of Consul is weighty enough already in influence
        without handing over a blank cheque for an expansion of its role.

        So citizens, I urge you to vote NO to:

        Rogatio Moravia Iulia de censoribus
        Rogatio Moravia Iulia de consulibus


        --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Titus Iulius Sabinus"
        <iulius_sabinus@...> wrote:
        >
        > SALVE CAESAR ET SALVETE!
        >
        > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gnaeus Iulius Caesar"
        > <gn_iulius_caesar@> wrote:
        >
        > > Having thought some more on the proposed laws, one part is
        slightly
        > > puzzling, namely what is the practical gain from extracting the
        > > limits on numbers of censors, consuls, praetors etc. from the
        > > Constitution and placing it under the cover of legislation?>>>
        Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59149 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2008-11-13
        Subject: The Censuria
        Salve Caesar,

        Gnaeus Iulius Caesar <gn_iulius_caesar@...> writes:

        > As far as the proposal in respect of the Censor is concerned, it
        > makes more sense to me to leave the office as it is for the moment.
        > It works well having one Censor with experience still in office when
        > a new one is elected. It certainly seems to have helped in the
        > transition to have the security of one experienced Censor able to
        > give counsel and guidance to someone new to the position.

        Then why not do the same with all our offices? Stagger the consuls,
        and the praetors, etc...?

        Over the course of the past several years we've been slowly setting up
        the mechanisms for an orderly transition away from the staggered two
        censor system. We've moved the day to day clerical work of new
        citizen processing to the Rogators, and continuity is insured by the
        body of semi-permanent scribes who serve from year to year in the
        office of citizen approval. Whether these people continue to serve as
        censorial scribes or as rogatorial scribes is much less important than
        that we continue to take advantage of their knowledge and expertise.

        This is not a brand new idea made up out of nothing. It goes back to
        an idea proposed by Vedius many years ago, and it's one now being
        brought to fruition in the fullness of time.

        Vale,

        CN-EQVIT-MARINVS
        Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59150 From: Tiberius Horatius Barbatus Date: 2008-11-13
        Subject: Re: Candidate endorsements--and vote no on most of the laws
        Barbatus Palladio sal.

        I am honored by your kind words and support. I will endeavor to prove my worth.

        Gratias tibi ago.

        Bene vale

        --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "D. Iunius Palladius (La Plume)" <bcatfd@...>
        wrote:
        >

        > Tribune of the plebs:
        > I am a patrician and cannot vote for Tribune but if I could, I would vote for Tiberius
        Horatius Barbatus. In the time since he has joined us he has served our governor and
        province tirelessly. His organizational skills, people skills and dedication to Nova Roma
        are evident in anything he does.
        >
        > Valete,
        >
        > Palladius,
        > Senator censorius
        Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59151 From: Tiberius Horatius Barbatus Date: 2008-11-13
        Subject: Looking for Issue 1 "Declaratio"
        Salvete omnes

        I'm looking to obtain a few of the first issue coins of Nova Roma. If anyone is interested in
        divesting themselves of a few, please contact me off-list.

        robbjaxon@...

        Optime valete

        Ti. Horatius
        Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59152 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2008-11-13
        Subject: Re: The Censuria
        Salve Marine
         
        I, personally, wouldn't stagger those other offices for I think they are less technical and more policy driven. As Consuls change so too do objectives and policy directions. With the departure of the Consuls, so too depart their staff, so there is no need to stagger. In fact I suspect a clean slate would be preferred. The role of praetor is also less technical and certainly legal interpretation is not standardized, whereas the Censuria combines the technical with established (now) policies on naming practices. The current technical nature of the Censuria makes it, in my opinion, an ideal candidate for phased transition.
         
        Vale bene
        Cn. Iulius Caesar

         
        Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 9:29 PM
        Subject: [Nova-Roma] The Censuria

        .

        Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59153 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2008-11-13
        Subject: Today in Rome, Nov 14 2008.
        C. Petronius Dexter omnibus Quiritibus s.p.d.,
         
        Today in Rome :
         
        (Julian day : 2 454 785).
         
        A. d. XVIII Kalendas Decembres
        MMDCCLXI anno Vrbis conditae.
        Coss. M. Moravio T. Iulio.
         
        Day of the week : Veneris dies (Friday).
         
        Lunaris dies: XVIII.
        Nundinal letter : F.
         
        Hora ortus Solis : 06:57.
        Hora occasus Solis : 16:50.
        Temp. Min. : 10° C.
        Temp. Max. : 17° C.
        Wind on Rome : 23 Km/h.
        Humidity:  77%.
        Weather: Few showers. Cloudy. Mild.
         
        Horae diei :
         
        I: 06:57 - 07:47 Lunae hora.
        II: 07:47 - 08:38 Saturni hora.
        III: 08:38 - 09:28 Iovis hora.
        IV: 09:28 - 10:19 Martis hora.
        V: 10:19 - 11:09 Solis hora.
        VI: 11:09 - 12:00 Veneris hora.
        VII: 12:00 - 12:48 Mercurii hora.
        VIII: 12:48 - 13:36 Lunae hora.
        IX: 13:36 - 14:25 Saturni hora.
        X: 14:25 - 15:13 Iovis hora.
        XI: 15:13 - 16:01 Martis hora.
        XII: 16:01 - 16:50 Solis hora.
         

        Horae noctis :
         
        I: 16:50 - 18:01 Veneris hora.
        II: 18:01 - 19:13 Mercurii hora.
        III: 19:13 - 20:25 Lunae hora.
        IV: 20:25 - 21:36 Saturni hora.
        V: 21:36 - 22:48 Iovis hora.
        VI: 22:48 - 00:00 Martis hora.
        VII: 00:00 - 01:09 Solis hora.
        VIII: 01:09 - 02:19 Veneris hora.
        IX: 02:19 - 03:29 Mercurii hora.
        X: 03:29 - 04:39 Lunae hora.
        XI: 04:39 - 05:49 Saturni hora.
        XII: 05:49 - 06:59 Iovis hora.
         
         
        "Sed profecto fortuna in omni re dominatur; ea res cunctas ex lubidine magis quam ex vero celebrat obscuratque."
        (Sallust. Jug: VIII.) 

        Valete.
         
        C. Petronius Dexter.
        Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59154 From: Kristoffer From Date: 2008-11-14
        Subject: Re: The Censuria
        Salve, Gnae Equiti Marine.

        Gnaeus Equitius Marinus wrote:
        > Then why not do the same with all our offices? Stagger the consuls,
        > and the praetors, etc...?
        >

        I, for one, would welcome such a change, if properly "checked and balanced".

        It's been a tradition in Nova Roma to allow a newly elected magistrate
        to oversee the ongoing work, to better help them understand what the
        position actually entails, before the new year. In some (most?) cases,
        the outgoing magistrate has remained in an advisory position for some
        time, to keep this up.

        The need exists, so why not make it official? If we want to stick to two
        and never more consuls at a time, they could easily be elected in a
        fashion similar to the censors, though perhaps elected every half year,
        given a one-year term. As an extra bonus, we wouldn't have to scrounge
        up as many candidates at any given time.

        Historicity? None, apart from our own established censorial tradition.
        However, where Romans lived and breathed the Roman way, and encountered
        the administration on a regular basis, our administrators are somewhat
        tossed into the rapids with a leaking boat and no paddle.

        I'd personally advocate using staggered odd-numbered magistracies to
        help avoid some deadlocks that have been known to arise every now and
        then. With three consuls, if two can't see eye to eye on an issue, the
        third can help facilitate a compromise or lay a deciding "vote".

        > Over the course of the past several years we've been slowly setting up
        > the mechanisms for an orderly transition away from the staggered two
        > censor system. We've moved the day to day clerical work of new
        > citizen processing to the Rogators, and continuity is insured by the
        > body of semi-permanent scribes who serve from year to year in the
        > office of citizen approval. Whether these people continue to serve as
        > censorial scribes or as rogatorial scribes is much less important than
        > that we continue to take advantage of their knowledge and expertise.
        >

        These changes were pretty much proposed and/or promulgated by yourself,
        were they not? The "we" that seems to indicate a conscious effort by all
        of Nova Roma, or at least all her magistrates, to move in this direction.

        Anyway, an unofficial tradition of several magistracies having
        "semi-permanent scribes" has sprung up. This is not, however, a part of
        our ACTUAL system, which nevertheless requires something to "insure
        continuity". If it is important that we "continue to take advantage" of
        them, we need to decide what would insure that we can.

        The options, as I see them, are:

        1. To recognise these magistracy-not-magistrate scribes in some way, to
        allow the people some oversight and perhaps have the people elect new
        members to fill them should old members resign or the need for expansion
        arise.

        2. To have staggered magistracies, which will allow for the possibility
        of the new magistrate bringing in new scribes to be mentored by the
        senior magistrate's scribes in the same way the junior magistrate is
        mentored by the senior.

        (1 and 2 are fully possible to combine, of course.)

        3. Ignore the potential problem and hope everything keeps working in the
        future just because it has in the past.

        > This is not a brand new idea made up out of nothing. It goes back to
        > an idea proposed by Vedius many years ago, and it's one now being
        > brought to fruition in the fullness of time.
        >

        The "fullness of time" for censors elected collegiately once few years
        was during the Roman republic and, possibly, the empire. The idea of the
        rogators as "mini-censors" is a band-aid to try to plaster together our
        modern existence with an almost ceremonial view on the Censors.

        The Romans could have elected Censors as infrequently as every decade or
        more, since new citizens were born and not admitted, and they neither
        had to pay taxes (in most cases) nor had the right to vote until they
        were of age. We admit new citizens, most or all of whom are of age, on a
        daily basis.

        In summary, the Censors are our most senior magistrates whilst rogators
        require no prior experience. I'd prefer leaving something as vital and
        sensitive to the Censors, which is how things have worked, and worked
        well, with the current staggered system since the foundation of Nova Roma.

        Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.
        Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59155 From: marcushoratius Date: 2008-11-14
        Subject: a. d. XVIII Kalendas Decembris: Hortensia; Probatio Equorum
        M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus Quiritibus et omnibus salutem
        plurimam dicit: Diis bene iuvantibus simus.

        Hodie est ante diem XVIII Kalendas Decembris; haec dies fastus
        publica est: Equorum Probatio

        Felices Natalis, Quaestrix Marca Hortensia Maior!

        "Juno Natalis, a young woman offers you a sacrificial bowl held by
        her soft hands, in which holy incense is heaped. Today she is all
        yours; most joyfully adorned she stands before your altar for all to
        see. Be gracious, and come shining forth next year, when this same
        devotion in the ancient tradition she'll once more lovingly offer."
        ~ Albius Tibullus 3.12.1-4; 19-20


        Hortensia Defends the Matrons before the Triumviri

        "Hortensia , daughter of Q. Hortensius, pleaded the cause of women
        before the Triumviri resolutely and successfully when they had
        burdened the order of women with a heavy tax and none of the other
        sex would lend them his advocacy. Reviving her father's eloquence,
        she won remission of the greater part of the impost. Q. Hortensius
        then lived again in his female progeny and inspired his daughter's
        words. If his male descendent had chosen to follow her example, the
        great heritage of Hortensian eloquence would not have been cut short
        with a single speech by a woman." ~ Valerius Maximus 8.3.3


        "The triumvirs addressed the people on this subject and published an
        edict requiring 1400 of the richest women to make a valuation of
        their property, and to furnish for the service of the war such
        portion as triumvirs should require from each. It was provided
        further that if any should conceal their property or make a false
        valuation they should be fined, and that rewards should be given to
        informers, whether free persons or slaves. The women resolved to
        beseech the women-folk of the triumvirs. With the sister of Octavian
        and the mother of Antony they did not fail, but they were repulsed
        from the doors of Fulvia, the wife of Antony, whose rudeness they
        could scarce endure. They then forced their way to the tribunal of
        the triumvirs in the forum, the people and the guards dividing to let
        them pass. There, through the mouth of Hortensia, whom they had
        selected to speak, they spoke as follows: "As befitted women of our
        rank addressing a petition to you, we had recourse to the ladies of
        your households; but having been treated as did not befit us, at the
        hands of Fulvia, we have been driven by her to the forum. You have
        already deprived us of our fathers, our sons, our husbands, and our
        brothers, whom you accused of having wronged you; if you take away
        our property also, you reduce us to a condition unbecoming our birth,
        our manners, our sex. If we have done you wrong, as you say our
        husbands have, proscribe us as you do them. But if we women have not
        voted any of you public enemies, have not torn down your houses,
        destroyed your army, or led another one against you; if we have not
        hindered you in obtaining offices and honours,— why do we share the
        penalty when we did not share the guilt?

        "Why should we pay taxes when we have no part in the honours, the
        commands, the state-craft,b for which you contend against each other
        with such harmful results? 'Because this is a time of war," do you
        say? When have there not been wars, and when have taxes ever been
        imposed on women, who are exempted by their sex among all mankind?
        Our mothers did once rise superior to their sex and made
        contributions when you were in danger of losing the whole empire and
        the city itself through the conflict with the Carthaginians. But then
        they contributed voluntarily, not from their landed property, their
        fields, their dowries, or their houses, without which life is not
        possible to free women, but only from their own jewellery, and even
        these not according to the fixed valuation, not under fear of
        informers or accusers, not by force and violence, but what they
        themselves were willing to give. What alarm is there now for the
        empire or the country? Let war with the Gauls or the Parthians come,
        and we shall not be inferior to our mothers in zeal for the common
        safety; but for civil wars may we never contribute, nor ever assist
        you against each other! We did not contribute to Caesar or to Pompey.
        Neither Marius nor Cinna imposed taxes upon us. Nor did Sulla, who
        held despotic power in the state, do so, whereas you say that you are
        re-establishing the commonwealth."

        "While Hortensia thus spoke the triumvirs were angry that women
        should dare to hold a public meeting when the men were silent; that
        they should demand from magistrates the reasons for their acts, and
        themselves not so much as furnish money while the men were serving in
        the army. They ordered the lictors to drive them away from the
        tribunal, which they proceeded to do until cries were raised by the
        multitude outside, when the lictors desisted and the triumvirs said
        they would postpone till the next day the consideration of the
        matter. On the following day they reduced the number of the women,
        who were to present a valuation of their property, from 1400 to 400,
        and decreed that all men who possessed more than 100,000 drachmas,
        both citizens and strangers, freedmen and priests, and men of all
        nationalities without a single exception, should (under the same
        dread of penalty and also of informers) lend them at interest a
        fiftieth part of their property and contribute one year's income to
        the war expenses." ~ Appian, The Civil Wars 4.32-34


        The Equorum Probatio

        As at the Ludi Romani Magni a procession of the Equites equo publico
        was conducted during the Ludi Plebii. They were a special class of
        citizens, only 300 in number, who were provided with a horse at
        public expense. According to one account, their procession began
        soon after the Battle of Lake Regillus (Dionysius of Halicarnassus
        6.13.4). Another story told how censor Q. Fabius introduced the
        Equites probatio originally on the Ides of July (Livy 9.46; Valerius
        Maximus 2.2.9). The Equites equo publico wore the distinctive
        trabeati equites – a short purple toga, as well as the tunica with
        narrow purple stripes (angusti clavi), the special equestrian shoes
        (calci) and gold rings. In purple and gold they mounted white
        horses, parading from the Campus Martius, stopping at the Temple of
        Casto and Pollux to offer sacrifices to their patron deities, before
        continuing on to the Capitolium to sacrifice to Jupiter Optimus
        Maximus.


        Our thought for today is from Marcus Aurelius, Meditations 5.16:

        "As are thy habitual thoughts, so also shall be the character of thy
        mind; for thy soul is dyed by thy thoughts."
        Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59156 From: iulius sabinus Date: 2008-11-14
        Subject: Re: a. d. XVIII Kalendas Decembris: Hortensia; Probatio Equorum
        SALVE ET SALVETE!


        --- On Fri, 11/14/08, marcushoratius <MHoratius@...> wrote:

        Hodie est ante diem XVIII Kalendas Decembris; haec dies fastus
        publica est: Equorum Probatio

        Felices Natalis, Quaestrix Marca Hortensia Maior!>>>
        Happy birthday and all the best to you!
        VALE ET VALETE,
        IVL SABINVS

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        Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59157 From: Titus Iulius Sabinus Date: 2008-11-14
        Subject: Re: T. Iulius Sabinus for Censor!
        SALVE ET SALVETE!

        Thank you very much for your appreciations, Livia. If elected I will
        try to do my best.

        I and Arria Carina consider you a very good friend and I'm sure that
        next summer we will find a way to spend together some days.

        VALE ET VALETE,
        IVL SABINVS

        --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucia Livia Plauta" <cases@...>
        wrote:

        > But the race for the Censura is the most competitive one this year,
        so I have to repeat my endorsement of T. Iulius Sabinus.
        >
        > I consider him a good friend, and I had the chance to spend several
        > days with him this summer, so I can guarantee that he's a person of
        > exceptional integrity, and the embodiment of many roman virtues (I
        > know the people who haven't met him might not believe be, but
        really!)
        > He is a very balanced and diplomatic person, the best choice for a
        > post of responsibility like the Censura. He will never issue a nota
        > unless it's totally justified, and only after attempts have been
        made to solve the matter by other means.

        > Vote for Sabinus!
        Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59158 From: Titus Iulius Sabinus Date: 2008-11-14
        Subject: Re: T. Iulius Sabinus for Censor!
        SALVE ET SALVETE!

        Thank you very much for support.

        Sometime I can't believe how the time flies, and look, there are
        already four years from when I found in you and Pompeia two good
        friends, working together in the Magna Mater Project during the
        Iulius Sulla aedileship.(I'm still in connection with Sulla, he is
        fine, continuing to consolidate his cardiologist career).

        I wish you again Happy Birthday and great successes in all what you
        do.

        VALE ET VALETE,
        IVL SABINVS

        --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@...> wrote:

        > I totally agree, though Laenas is a fine person, I must speak for
        > Sabinus who is both a pontifex and a European, this will give the
        > censors, balance and he's been an excellent consul this year.
        >
        > I'm also really happy to see our next consules from provinces
        > Hispania and Mexico.
        Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59159 From: Lucia Livia Plauta Date: 2008-11-14
        Subject: Re: Voting on the proposed laws
        L. Livia P. Memmio omnibusque sal.

        I think there's a misunderstanding here. The rogationes I listed are
        not new ones: they are contained in the original message posted by
        consul Piscinus to all the relevant lists on 7/11/2008 with the
        subject "The COMITIA CENTURIATA is CALLED to assemble", and in the
        message posted on the same day with the subject "The COMITIA POPULI
        TRIBUTA is CALLED to assemble".

        I did suspect that few people bothered to read the messages, so I
        posted a collection of rogationes that I will vote "yes" to.

        This reflects my personal opinions, and it's not an indication that I
        "answer for the consuls".

        Again, I ask all citizens to vote "yes" on:

        - Rogatio Moravia Iulia de ratione comitiorum centuriatorum
        - Rogatio Moravia Iulia de consulibus
        - Rogatio Moravia Iulia de quaestoribus
        - Rogatio Moravia Iulia de curatore aerarii
        - Rogatio Moravia Iulia de tributo virgines vestales


        Optime valete omnes.
        L. Livia Plauta

        --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Publius Memmius Albucius"
        <albucius_aoe@...> wrote:
        >
        > Liviae tribuno s.d.
        >
        > > No annexion happened.
        >
        > Ahhh !!! Good ! But why do you again, as tribune, answer for the
        > consulate (see beneath) ?!!!
        >
        >
        > > All the rogationes were announced and can be found on the election
        > page.
        >
        > Ah? I did not know, because I had not even the idea to go checking
        > this page, having waited for a message, here, in this ML, amending
        > the first one. If I am not wrong, the elections page(s) are not the
        > place where to post legal amendments, no ?
        >
        > They should be posted either in the relevant comitia list (here CC)
        > or in the list where the first draft has been issued (this ML).
        >
        > Have I missed some new law about the new role of the elections page ?
        >
        >
        > Vale bene Livia,
        >
        >
        > Albucius
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucia Livia Plauta" <cases@>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > L. Livia P. Memmio sal.
        > >
        > > yes, you are wrong.
        > > All the rogationes were announced and can be found on the election
        > page.
        > > No annexion happened.
        > >
        > > Optime vale,
        > > Livia
        > >
        > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Publius Memmius Albucius"
        > > <albucius_aoe@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Liviae s.d.
        > > >
        > > > Independantly of the value of the matter, am I wrong, or you are
        > > > displaying new Rogationes items that have not yet been
        > communicated
        > > > by the Consuls ? Has the tribunate been annexed by the
        > consulate ? ;-)
        > > >
        > > > Vale bene,
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > P. Memmius Albucius
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucia Livia Plauta" <cases@>
        > > > wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > L.Livia Plauta tribuna plebis omnibus quiritibus S.P.D.
        > > > >
        > > > > I am still convinced that consul Piscinus' proposals have more
        > > > > advantages than disadvantages, and that our citizens are mature
        > > > enough
        > > > > to prevent any dire consequences in case they pass.
        > > > >
        > > > > However I have collected here a list of the Rogationes which
        > seem
        > > > not
        > > > > to have caused any heated discussions and are thus safe to be
        > > > approved.
        > > > >
        > > > > I ask the citizens to vote YES at least on the following
        > proposals.
        > > > > In the Comitia Centuriata:
        > > > >
        > > > > - Rogatio Moravia Iulia de ratione comitiorum centuriatorum
        > > > >
        > > > > This is the law that would abolish sequencial voting, which has
        > > > been a
        > > > > thorn in the side to all concerned for ages.
        > > > >
        > > > > - Rogatio Moravia Iulia de consulibus
        > > > >
        > > > > This law only allows additional tasks for the consuls to be
        > decided
        > > > by
        > > > > law. It doesn't change their number.
        > > > >
        > > > > - Rogatio Moravia Iulia de quaestoribus
        > > > >
        > > > > This law makes the number of quaestores independent from that of
        > > > > magistrates. This means that they could be more if necessary,
        > or
        > > > less,
        > > > > if there are few candidates.
        > > > >
        > > > > - Rogatio Moravia Iulia de curatore aerarii
        > > > >
        > > > > This law gives a bit more recognition, and century points to the
        > > > > curator aerarii, the person who has one of the hardest and most
        > > > > important tasks in NR, accounting.
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > In the Comitia Populi Tributa:
        > > > >
        > > > > - Rogatio Moravia Iulia de tributo virgines vestales (this
        > should
        > > > read
        > > > > in correct Latin "de tributo virginibus vestalibus")
        > > > >
        > > > > This law exempts vestal virgins from paying taxes. We know how
        > hard
        > > > it
        > > > > is to get volunteers for this position. A minimal incentive
        > like
        > > > this
        > > > > is better than nothing.
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
        Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59160 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2008-11-14
        Subject: Opposing the following proposed laws
        Cn. Iulius Caesar Quiritibus sal.

        As we approach the start of voting, I wanted to take this opportunity
        to give a summation of why I think the following proposed laws should
        be rejected


        NO to the Rogatio Moravia Iulia de censoribus:

        --We would benefit from keeping the current overlap between
        appointments of Censors, because of the technical nature of the
        censuria.


        NO to the Rogatio Moravia Iulia de consulibus:

        --This sets the stage for extending the reach of the Consuls into areas
        which are not their concern. It gives a blank cheque for later Consuls
        to argue for too wide an extension of their mandate and
        responsibilities.


        NO to the Rogatio Moravia Iulia de praetoribus:

        --This too allows for an extension of the Praetors powers to involve
        themselves in areas which are not their concern, nor never should be.
        This year has taught us that when two praetors, supported by the
        Consuls, set their heart on an objective, they can ride roughshod over
        the constitution, the law, and common sense. I won't even bother to
        stress decency as the entire trial process was indecent in so many
        ways. This proposal would allow the praetors to make the case for
        unfettered interference in all sorts of inappropriate areas of life in
        Nova Roma.

        Additionally by allowing the numbers to rise or fall through
        legislation alone the stage will be set for either limiting us to one
        praetor - utterly un-Roman to design a system where this is not only
        possible but approved - OR - it will be set for stuffing the Senate
        with political cronies when the numbers are increased.


        NO to the Rogatio Moravia Iulia de aedilibus curulibus:

        --The same objection as to one of the issues with the proposal for the
        Praetors, namely too great a potential expansion of the role.


        NO to the Rogatio Moravia Iulia de quaestoribus:

        --Expanding the numbers of the Quaestors is not necessary. It provides
        the potential to give a block of one's political allies a jump start of
        century points. If there is actual documented need of a shortage, then
        amend the constitution.

        For those who would like a fuller explanation of my reasons, if you
        missed my earlier posts please see the links below.

        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/59082
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/59135
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/59148
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/59152

        The Rogatio Moravia Iulia de aedilibus plebis and the Rogatio Moravia
        Iulia de tribunis plebis are matters of concern to the plebs. I won't
        comment further other than to suggest everyone read the laws by the
        links in the Wiki under the Election page, and judge what similarities
        exist to the above laws and therefore what problems. Tribune Aquila can
        speak and has spoken to those in greater detail.

        Finally...

        Vote YES for the Rogatio Moravia Iulia de ratione comitiorum
        centuriatorum.

        Valete bene,
        Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59161 From: Titus Flavius Aquila Date: 2008-11-14
        Subject: Lex Moravia Iulia Rogationes III - IX
         Salvete Quirites,
         
        I want to inform you, that the 1st veto period is over. But I would like to inform you as well, that I will veto after the vote.
         

        I have, in a wish of clever constructive discussion, written several times to Cos. Piscinus . For the last time on the 12th of Nov., in order that he could insert in the consular draft the modifications that I thought necessary for keeping the nature of our Roman republic. Cos. Piscinus has not found time to answer the humble tribune of the Plebs that I am.

         

        In this absence of good will, I have no other choice than using the rights that the constitution of Nova Roma gives me to uphold it and our republic.

         
        Optime valete
        Titus Flavius Aquila 
        Tribunus Plebis Nova Roma
         


        Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59162 From: Titus Flavius Aquila Date: 2008-11-14
        Subject: Lex Moravia Iulia Rogationes III - IX
        Salvete Quirites,
         
        I want to inform you, that the 1st veto period is over. But I would like to inform you as well, that I will veto after the vote.
         

        I have, in a wish of clever constructive discussion, written several times to Cos. Piscinus . For the last time on the 12th of Nov., in order that he could insert in the consular draft the modifications that I thought necessary for keeping the nature of our Roman republic. Cos. Piscinus has not found time to answer the humble tribune of the Plebs that I am.

         

        In this absence of good will, I have no other choice than using the rights that the constitution of Nova Roma gives me to uphold it and our republic.

         
        Optime valete
        Titus Flavius Aquila 
        Tribunus Plebis Nova Roma
         

        Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59163 From: Titus Iulius Sabinus Date: 2008-11-14
        Subject: At the contio's end.
        SALVETE!

        During the contio were many debates pro or contra the proposed
        legislation. I still sustain my opinion that some of presented
        rogationes represent a step forward. Magistrates will have in the
        future a good opportunity to present laws and citizens to exercise
        their most important right, to vote and to approve or not them. This
        way the final decision belongs to you, citizens. This is important
        and despite what was presented as contra arguments keep this in your
        mind: magistrates present law but you approve them through your vote.
        Preserve your right to participate in active way to the decisional
        level.
        That was and is the intention of consuls of this year.
        That was and is the consuls policy for this year: as Nova Roma to
        belong to its citizens and they to benefit of all necessaries
        information in order to know what is happen in every area of the
        state's activities, from finances, religion, future development and
        so on.

        However I want to point out again that the collegiality in offices is
        very important and we must preserve that.
        If in the aedilis plebis (and tribunis plebes) case, the lack of
        candidacy can be compensated by the Senate legal power extending by
        one year the term of the magistrate serving in that office or
        appointing senators to fill the vacancy, I can not say the same for
        the offices of praetors and curule aediles. Dual magistracies
        represent the foundation rule of our state and we must preserve that.
        Therefore I don't sustain the rogationes de praetoribus and de
        aedilibus curulibus. As a consequence I extend that to the rogatio de
        aedilibus plebis with the amendment that the Plebeian Order has more
        right to decide voting pro or against the proposed law.

        I saw that the Plebeian Order is sensitive to its tribuni number. I
        consider that not necessary the number is important but the daily
        active involvement. However I will not interfere with the future
        decision of the Plebeian Order members. You have good representative
        this year, they know what to do and taking the things in my way, I'm
        proud to see in the persons of Tribune Aquila and Livia Plauta two
        citizens very active and deeply involved in the daily life of Nova
        Roma. They have my respect for that.
        For the rogationes de aedilibus plebis and tribunis plebis decide
        through your vote what you consider is the best for your future.

        As time the contio period is over, through this message I ask the
        convening magistrate, my colleague consul Piscinus to pay attention
        to what was presented by our citizens in their messages and to amend
        the proposed legislation in the spirit of cooperation and common
        sense.

        VALETE,
        IVL SABINVS
        Consul
        Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59164 From: Lucia Livia Plauta Date: 2008-11-14
        Subject: Re: Lex Moravia Iulia Rogationes III - IX
        L. Livia Plauta quiritibus S.P.D.

        And I inform you that, if the rogationes in question have passed, I
        will defend democracy and the value of our citizens' votes and veto my
        colleague Aquila's veto.

        Please don't let yourselves be intimidated into not voting!


        --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Titus Flavius Aquila
        <titus.aquila@...> wrote:
        >
        > Â Salvete Quirites,
        >
        >
        > I want to inform you, that the 1st veto period is over. But I would
        like to inform you as well, that I will veto after the vote.
        >
        > I have, in a wish of clever constructive
        discussion, written several times to Cos. Piscinus . For the last
        time on the 12th of Nov., in order that he could insert in the
        consular draft the modifications that I thought necessary for keeping
        the nature of our Roman republic. Cos. Piscinus has not found time to
        answer the humble tribune of the Plebs that I am.
        > Â
        > In this absence of good will, I have no other choice than using the
        rights that the constitution of Nova Roma gives me to uphold it and
        our republic.
        >
        > Optime valete
        > Titus Flavius AquilaÂ
        > Tribunus Plebis Nova Roma
        >
        Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59165 From: Robert Levee Date: 2008-11-14
        Subject: Re: Lex Moravia Iulia Rogationes III - IX
        Salve et Salvetete, Titus Flavius Aquila S.P.D.
        I am writing this post to let you know that I support your staunch stand, to defend the intersts of the comon Roman citizen.I applaud your valor in your efforts to see that justice can overcome insurmountable odds, to defeat the almost Orwellian nature of this issue.

        Optime vale,
        For The Gods!
        Ap.Galerius Aurelianus



        --- On Fri, 11/14/08, Titus Flavius Aquila <titus.aquila@...> wrote:

        > From: Titus Flavius Aquila <titus.aquila@...>
        > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Lex Moravia Iulia Rogationes III - IX
        > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, NRmagistrates@yahoogroups.com, ComitiaPlebisTributa@yahoogroups.com, NovaRoma-Announce@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Friday, November 14, 2008, 1:10 PM
        > Salvete Quirites,
        >
        > I want to inform you, that the 1st veto period is over.
        > But I would like to inform you as well, that I will veto
        > after the vote.
        >
        > I have, in a wish of clever constructive
        > discussion, written several times to Cos. Piscinus . For
        > the last time on the 12th of Nov., in order that he could
        > insert in the consular draft the modifications that I
        > thought necessary for keeping the nature of our Roman
        > republic. Cos. Piscinus has not found time to answer the
        > humble tribune of the Plebs that I am.
        >  
        > In this absence of good will, I have no other choice than
        > using the rights that the constitution of Nova Roma gives me
        > to uphold it and our republic.
        >
        > Optime valete
        > Titus Flavius Aquila 
        > Tribunus Plebis Nova Roma
        Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59166 From: Titus Iulius Sabinus Date: 2008-11-14
        Subject: My endorsements.
        SALVETE!

        I want to point out some aspects about the candidates I know better
        and I was in connection during the time:

        I have trust that M. Curiatius Complutensis and M. Iulius Severus
        will continue in good way the work started this year. More than that,
        they will add theirs personal contribution covering those areas which
        need more improvement.
        Both have experience, were very active and acted in collegial
        relation and I'm sure we will see positive contributions.
        They have my support for the office of consulship.

        With Equitius Marinus and Memmius Albucius praetura is in good hands.
        Equitius Marinus come with the huge reputation of the well done job
        in each position and Memmius Albucius with good juridical knowledge.
        I salute their candidacy and I support them with all my heart.

        Reading the Cn. Iulius Caesar statement I'm sure that he will act
        exactly in the way presented there. Caesar is a person I respect,
        with honor and common sense. I consider him a model of dignitas to
        follow. With the necessary initiative and all abilities he
        demonstrated for many times I'm sure we will have an important
        aedilician year. I can't abstain to say that what you enjoy now on
        Google Earth as the ancient Rome 3D model, Caesar had as idea two
        years ago, exactly in the same way, as a reconstruction of the
        Constantine period when Rome was at its greatest level of
        architectural development. It was nice as this project developed now
        by Google to be associated with Nova Roma but it seems we have to
        learn where to focus our energy.

        I wish success to all candidates for quaestura. They have what to
        learn at this first step in Cursus Honorum and fortunately a Quaestor
        Handbook was developed a few years ago by Saturninus and available
        now not only in this group file section but on wiki, too.
        I see there Reccanellus as candidate for the second time in this
        office. As time we were colleagues in the Pompeia consular cohors, I
        know what wonderful job he done managing all in connection with NR
        taxes.
        I have confidence in two of my very good friends, tribuna Livia and
        tribune Aquila. They already demonstrated this year their deeply
        interest in NR. A special support to them!
        Then, with Valerius Poplicola, Petronius Dexter and Valerius Potitus
        energy and excellent knowledge quaestura will have only to benefit.
        Near them, Cornelius Scipio and Gratius Nerva complete what I
        consider as good candidates for the next year and I support all of
        them.

        Tullia Scolastica's contributions are unquestionable. I had the honor
        to work near her in many cohors. She has a deeply sense of duty and
        one can count totally on her word. She has a special place in my
        heart and I fully support her.
        With Tullius Valerianus and Arminius Genialis I didn't have an
        occasion to collaborate but, taking in consideration their messages I
        had read, I'm sure they are dedicated citizens and they can fulfill
        the position anytime.

        I support the candidates for diribitor. There are Octavius Corvus,
        the governor of Sarmatia, a good friend and neighbor, Valerius
        Traianus, Nova Roma citizen since 2000, senatrix Annia Minucia, a
        fine person I respect and excellent governor and Terentius Varro,
        citizen since 2001. After Aurelius Severus resigned, he announced me,
        that the best message, in the spirit of Concordia and common sense,
        he received in connection with his resignation, was received from
        Terentius Varrus. That demonstrated me that Varrus has really
        diplomatic qualities and common sense.

        I don't have enough words to describe what wonderful person is Marcus
        Lucretius. I will say only that I was honored to meet him in Rome and
        I hope to meet him again with other occasions. I'm honored by his
        friendship and if NR wiki is what is now, is his contribution.
        I support the Salix Cicero's candidacy, too. He is one of this year
        consular accensus.

        I can't vote in Comitia Plebis Tributa. But I see there as candidates
        our best citizens and I wish success to them.
        I'm glad to see there the former aedilis curulis Artoria Marcella, a
        person I collaborated in the best way two consecutive years. Marcella
        is a person of justice and as tribuna she will add a great
        contribution to tribunate.
        Agrippa participated at Conventus this summer. I was honored to meet
        a wonderful person and I regret we had only a few days to stay
        together. I use this opportunity to send to you Arria Carina's
        support in your candidacy, Agrippa.

        Success to all candidates!

        VALETE,
        IVL SABINVS
        Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59167 From: Publius Memmius Albucius Date: 2008-11-14
        Subject: Amended or not rogationes
        Liviae tribuno s.d.

        OK, well understood! These not-amended rogationes thus explained the
        fact that Tribune Aquila is driven to "report" his veto after the
        vote, and you to place your intervention there.

        OK, thanks a lot, even if I would have wished obtaining these
        informations from Consul Moravius directly. :-(

        Vale bene,


        Albucius


        --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucia Livia Plauta" <cases@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > L. Livia P. Memmio omnibusque sal.
        >
        > I think there's a misunderstanding here. The rogationes I listed are
        > not new ones: they are contained in the original message posted by
        > consul Piscinus to all the relevant lists on 7/11/2008 with the
        > subject "The COMITIA CENTURIATA is CALLED to assemble", and in the
        > message posted on the same day with the subject "The COMITIA POPULI
        > TRIBUTA is CALLED to assemble".
        >
        > I did suspect that few people bothered to read the messages, so I
        > posted a collection of rogationes that I will vote "yes" to.
        >
        > This reflects my personal opinions, and it's not an indication that
        I
        > "answer for the consuls".
        >
        > Again, I ask all citizens to vote "yes" on:
        >
        > - Rogatio Moravia Iulia de ratione comitiorum centuriatorum
        > - Rogatio Moravia Iulia de consulibus
        > - Rogatio Moravia Iulia de quaestoribus
        > - Rogatio Moravia Iulia de curatore aerarii
        > - Rogatio Moravia Iulia de tributo virgines vestales
        >
        >
        > Optime valete omnes.
        > L. Livia Plauta
        >
        > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Publius Memmius Albucius"
        > <albucius_aoe@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Liviae tribuno s.d.
        > >
        > > > No annexion happened.
        > >
        > > Ahhh !!! Good ! But why do you again, as tribune, answer for the
        > > consulate (see beneath) ?!!!
        > >
        > >
        > > > All the rogationes were announced and can be found on the
        election
        > > page.
        > >
        > > Ah? I did not know, because I had not even the idea to go
        checking
        > > this page, having waited for a message, here, in this ML,
        amending
        > > the first one. If I am not wrong, the elections page(s) are not
        the
        > > place where to post legal amendments, no ?
        > >
        > > They should be posted either in the relevant comitia list (here
        CC)
        > > or in the list where the first draft has been issued (this ML).
        > >
        > > Have I missed some new law about the new role of the elections
        page ?
        > >
        > >
        > > Vale bene Livia,
        > >
        > >
        > > Albucius
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucia Livia Plauta" <cases@>
        > > wrote:
        > > >
        > > > L. Livia P. Memmio sal.
        > > >
        > > > yes, you are wrong.
        > > > All the rogationes were announced and can be found on the
        election
        > > page.
        > > > No annexion happened.
        > > >
        > > > Optime vale,
        > > > Livia
        > > >
        > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Publius Memmius Albucius"
        > > > <albucius_aoe@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Liviae s.d.
        > > > >
        > > > > Independantly of the value of the matter, am I wrong, or you
        are
        > > > > displaying new Rogationes items that have not yet been
        > > communicated
        > > > > by the Consuls ? Has the tribunate been annexed by the
        > > consulate ? ;-)
        > > > >
        > > > > Vale bene,
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > P. Memmius Albucius
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucia Livia Plauta"
        <cases@>
        > > > > wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > L.Livia Plauta tribuna plebis omnibus quiritibus S.P.D.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > I am still convinced that consul Piscinus' proposals have
        more
        > > > > > advantages than disadvantages, and that our citizens are
        mature
        > > > > enough
        > > > > > to prevent any dire consequences in case they pass.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > However I have collected here a list of the Rogationes
        which
        > > seem
        > > > > not
        > > > > > to have caused any heated discussions and are thus safe to
        be
        > > > > approved.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > I ask the citizens to vote YES at least on the following
        > > proposals.
        > > > > > In the Comitia Centuriata:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > - Rogatio Moravia Iulia de ratione comitiorum centuriatorum
        > > > > >
        > > > > > This is the law that would abolish sequencial voting, which
        has
        > > > > been a
        > > > > > thorn in the side to all concerned for ages.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > - Rogatio Moravia Iulia de consulibus
        > > > > >
        > > > > > This law only allows additional tasks for the consuls to be
        > > decided
        > > > > by
        > > > > > law. It doesn't change their number.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > - Rogatio Moravia Iulia de quaestoribus
        > > > > >
        > > > > > This law makes the number of quaestores independent from
        that of
        > > > > > magistrates. This means that they could be more if
        necessary,
        > > or
        > > > > less,
        > > > > > if there are few candidates.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > - Rogatio Moravia Iulia de curatore aerarii
        > > > > >
        > > > > > This law gives a bit more recognition, and century points
        to the
        > > > > > curator aerarii, the person who has one of the hardest and
        most
        > > > > > important tasks in NR, accounting.
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > In the Comitia Populi Tributa:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > - Rogatio Moravia Iulia de tributo virgines vestales (this
        > > should
        > > > > read
        > > > > > in correct Latin "de tributo virginibus vestalibus")
        > > > > >
        > > > > > This law exempts vestal virgins from paying taxes. We know
        how
        > > hard
        > > > > it
        > > > > > is to get volunteers for this position. A minimal incentive
        > > like
        > > > > this
        > > > > > is better than nothing.
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
        Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59168 From: M•IVL•SEVERVS Date: 2008-11-14
        Subject: Re: T. Iulius Sabinus for Censor!
        Salvete omnes,
         
        Everything that L.Livia Plauta says about T. Iulius Sabinus, is what I think about him. He is a true Roman and a fine man, as well as an excellent magistrate.
        I also ask you, Quirites, to vote for Sabinus as our next Censor!
         
        Valete optime,

        M•IVL•SEVERVS
        CANDIDATVS•CONSVL

        --- On Thu, 11/13/08, Lucia Livia Plauta <cases@...> wrote:
        From: Lucia Livia Plauta <cases@...>
        Subject: [Nova-Roma] T. Iulius Sabinus for Censor!
        To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Thursday, November 13, 2008, 7:36 PM

        L. Livia Plauta omnibus quiritibus S.P.D.

        For most magistracies there are as many candidates as places, so while
        I do support most of the candidates, it's superfluous to point it out,
        because the best way to serve the res publica is to vote for them all.

        For Tribuni Plebis there is one more candidate than places, but as a
        current tribune I feel it's not my place to advise on who NOT to vote for.

        But the race for the Censura is the most competitive one this year, so
        I have to repeat my endorsement of T. Iulius Sabinus.

        I consider him a good friend, and I had the chance to spend several
        days with him this summer, so I can guarantee that he's a person of
        exceptional integrity, and the embodiment of many roman virtues (I
        know the people who haven't met him might not believe be, but really!)
        He is a very balanced and diplomatic person, the best choice for a
        post of responsibility like the Censura. He will never issue a nota
        unless it's totally justified, and only after attempts have been made
        to solve the matter by other means.

        Vote for Sabinus!


        Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59169 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2008-11-14
        Subject: Endorsements
        Cn. Iulius Caesar Quiritibus sal.

        For my endorsements of candidates I will concern myself only with the
        contested elections, where I have personal knowledge of the
        candidates.

        For CENSOR: Gaius Popillius Laenas. Moderate, organized, gifted and
        fair. Someone who has given excellent service to Nova Roma. A friend
        to many regardless of political differences and a true Roman. I was
        accensus to Laenas and I know that he treats his staff with respect,
        courtesy and attentiveness, paying due regard to their input but
        having the resolve to steer the path of his convictions after having
        listened to everyone's input. A throughly competent man who will make
        a thoroughly competent Censor.

        For TRIBUNE: Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa. As a Patrician I will only post
        my own personal observations on Agrippa, even though the result of
        this election impacts us all - patrician and pleb alike. A very fine
        man, Procurator in my province, dedicated and attentive to the
        issues, experienced as a Tribune from a previous term of office,
        measured in his approach and having the courage to do what is right.

        Vale bene
        Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59170 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2008-11-14
        Subject: Today in Rome: Nov 15, 2008.
        C. Petronius Dexter omnibus Quiritibus s.p.d.,
         
        Today in Rome :
         
        (Julian day : 2 454 786).
         
        A. d. XVII Kalendas Decembres
        MMDCCLXI anno Vrbis conditae.
        Coss. M. Moravio T. Iulio.
         
        Day of the week : Saturni dies (Saturday).
         
        Lunaris dies: XIX.
        Nundinal letter : G.
         
        Hora ortus Solis : 06:59.
        Hora occasus Solis : 16:49.
        Temp. Min. : 9° C.
        Temp. Max. : 17° C.
        Wind on Rome : 22 Km/h.
        Humidity: 76 %.
        Weather: Showers. Clouds. Cool.
         
        Horae diei :
         
        I: 06:59 - 07:49 Martis hora.
        II: 07:49 - 08:39 Solis hora.
        III: 08:39 - 09:29 Veneris hora.
        IV: 09:29 - 10:19 Mercurii hora.
        V: 10:19 - 11:09 Lunae hora.
        VI: 11:09 - 12:00 Saturni hora.
        VII: 12:00 - 12:48 Iovis hora.
        VIII: 12:48 - 13:36 Martis hora.
        IX: 13:36 - 14:24 Solis hora.
        X: 14:24 - 15:12 Veneris hora.
        XI: 15:12 - 16:00 Mercurii hora.
        XII: 16:00 - 16:49 Lunae hora.
         

        Horae noctis :
         
        I: 16:49 - 18:00 Saturni hora.
        II: 18:00 - 19:12 Iovis hora.
        III: 19:12 - 20:24 Martis hora.
        IV: 20:24 - 21:36 Solis hora.
        V: 21:36 - 22:48 Veneris hora.
        VI: 22:48 - 00:00 Mercurii hora.
        VII: 00:00 - 01:10 Lunae hora.
        VIII: 01:10 - 02:20 Saturni hora.
        IX: 02:20 - 03:30 Iovis hora.
        X: 03:30 - 04:49 Martis hora.
        XI: 04:40 - 05:50 Solis hora.
        XII: 05:50 - 07:00 Veneris hora.
         
         

        Valete.
         
        C. Petronius Dexter.
        Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59171 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2008-11-15
        Subject: The endorsements and votes of C. Petronius Dexter.
        C. Petronius Dexter omnibus Quiritibus s.p.d.,
         
        I am a new citizen. I applied for my citizenship on Nov. 27 2007, I successfully passed my citizen test on Feb. 09 2008 and I received my full citizenship letter on Feb. 27. 2008. So with a such few time of citizenship, I know that the weight of my opinions and my influence are very little, unless void. But, I like the frank and straight language with which we post on this list. And me too, I wish to publicly share my choices, my endorsements and votes.
         
        First my endorsements:
         
        CENSOR: We have three candidates, only one open position. In my opinion, the position of Censor is the crowning achievement of a long public carreer. P. Constantinus Placidus, in my frank opinion, can not jump from the bottom to the top. He must serve more the republic in most  positions of the carreer to pretend being a Censor. Now I have to chose between two great candidates, T. Iulius Sabinus and C. Popillius Laenas. Which of them I will chose? The patrician T. Iulius, the current consul, or the plebeian C. Popillius, who was consul on 2758 with Franciscus Apulus Caesar? And now just lictor and accensus?
         
        My decision will not attach to their each and opposite orders, patrician against plebeian, I do not claim the order war. My choice will give
        importance over one thing. I think that we must clean up the practices. As a magistrate in function is not subject to lawsuit, I think after his year of magistracy the former magistrate must have the year following off. In order to be judgeg if he did faults. So, imho, a break is desirable between magistracies with "imperium". Above all after a consulship.
         
        In following my opinion, thence I will support and will vote G. Popillius Laenas. Even if it seems that I have offended him with my message about his name Popillius, Popilius. I apologize to him, because he was right, his name can be written Popillius. ;o)
         
        CONSVL: We have two candidates for two positions. The both candidates have my endorsement and I will vote them. M. Julius Severus was my first contact in Nova Roma and did the honourable effort to write to me in French to announce me that I was approved as a temporary Nova
        Roman citizen untill I succesfully passed my test and 90 days probation. A very kind man. I do not know M. Curiatius Complutensis. We corresponded with courtesy about a mistake I did on the NRWiki pages.
         
        PRAETOR: We also have two candidates for two positions. I will not hesitate over my votes and I will vote for both. I like the depth of the
        messages of Gn. Equitius Marinus and, of  course, I also like the courtesy and the diplomacy of my fellow countryman P. Memmius Albucius
        which did not hesitate to defend the citizen Varro... where the absence of the tribunes of the plebs shone. I also appreciated the games given by him as aedilis curulis. I am sure that Nova Roma will have a good college of Praetors for the next year.
         
        CVRVLIS AEDILIS: I will vote Gn. Julius Caesar. I did not know him very much, but he has very interesting advices and positions.
         
        QVAESTOR: 8 candidates whose me for 8 open positions. In my case, I am sure that I will do for the best than I will can. So I will vote me as quaestor with complete confidence. No problem. I will vote the 8. The candidates I know more, except me,  are L. Livia Plauta, T. Flavius
        Aquila, Q. Valerius Poplicola. I remember the sport challenge with C. Arminius Reccanellus, but unfortunately during the last Ludi Romani my
        chariot did not confront his. ;o)
         
        ROGATOR: Three candidates for two positions. As latinist, I will vote A. Tullia Scholastica and G. Tullius Valerianus Germanicus. With both Tullii we are sure that the classical Latin will be respected.
         
        DIRIBITOR: Four candidates, four open positions. The choice is easy. I presume that the diribitores must be sure, fair and honest because they have the results of the votes in their hands. I trust in all them and I will vote the 4.
         
        CVSTOS: Two candidates, two open positions. I will vote the 2.
         
        AEDILIS PLEBIS: One candidate, two positions. However we have according to the non official census of C. Fulvius Severus 228 plebeian
        assidui which could be candidates! Nevertheless I cheerfully will vote Q. Caecilius Metellus Pius Postumianus.
         
        TRIBVNI PLEBIS: Six candidates, five positions! How will I vote? First, I will vote App. Galerius Valerianus whose I liked the interventions and his support to T. Flavius Aquila. I share with him the same positions about our order and I have appreciated his pagan bond with App. Claudius Varro. I have not decided yet which I will not can vote among the 5 other candidates.
         
        Now to the 10 Moravia Julia rogationes.
         
        I will vote yes :
         
        Rogatio de institutis publicis religiosis.
        Rogatio de ratione comitiorum centuriatorum.
        Rogatio de curatore aerarii.
         
        I will vote no the others.
         
        Valete.
         
        C. Petronius Dexter
         
         
        Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59172 From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com Date: 2008-11-15
        Subject: To all in the Far East, 11/15/2008, 12:00 pm
        Reminder from:   Nova-Roma Yahoo! Group
         
        Title:   To all in the Far East
         
        Date:   Saturday November 15, 2008
        Time:   12:00 pm - 1:00 pm
        Repeats:   This event repeats every month.
        Location:   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prov_asia_orientalis/
        Notes:   If you live in the Far East, why not join your provincial mailing list? Meet fellow citizens and get active locally. Don't just lurk! Send a message, introduce yourself and get involved! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prov_asia_orientalis/

        Provincial mailing lists are listed in the wiki. Go to http://novaroma.org/nr/Provincia_%28Nova_Roma%29
         
        Copyright © 2008  Yahoo! Inc. All Rights Reserved | Terms of Service | Privacy Policy
        Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59173 From: marcushoratius Date: 2008-11-15
        Subject: Centuria Praerogativa et Tribus Praesidium
        M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus Consul: Senatui Populoque Novo Romano,
        T. Iulio Sabino Consuli collegae Quiritibus, et omnibus: salutem
        plurimam dicunt:

        The Centuria Praerogativa has been selected by the Diribitores. It
        shall be Centuria VI.

        The Praesidium shall be Tribus XXII Maecia.
        Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59174 From: marcushoratius Date: 2008-11-15
        Subject: Recommendations in the Elections
        M. Moravius Piscinus Consul maior et Pontifex Maximus: Senatui
        Populoque Novo Romano, Quiritibus: salutem plurimam dicunt: Deos ego
        omnis ut fortunas sint precor

        I regret that I have been unable to participate in the contio. I
        would, however, like to add my last minute recommendations.

        For Censor: While I can find reasons to recommend any of the three
        candidates, I shall support and vote for my colleague Titus Iulius
        Sabinus. He is dedicated and hard working for the Respublica Libera.

        For Consules: Both candidates are excellent choices. We shall be
        fortunate to have Marcus Curiatius Complutensis and Marcus Iulius
        Severus serve as colleagues once more next year.

        For Praetores: Again we have two fine candidates and I support both
        Gnaeus Equitius Marinus and Publius Memmius Albucius.

        For Tribuni Plebis: I highly recommend Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa. We
        served together as Tribuni Plebis. We finally met in provincia Dacia
        this year. He has also served in the important position of Custos.
        We need someone of his experience to serve among the Tribuni Plebis.
        Secondly, I recommend Flavius Galerius Aurelianus. He, too, is a
        former Tribunus Plebis. He has always been most dedicated to the
        interests of the Plebeians, serving at the same time as Flamen
        Cerealis, and for most of this year as Pontifex Maximus. Third then,
        I recommend my friend Tita Artoria Marcella. She too has prior
        experience, having served as Aedilis Curulis. Of the remaining three
        candidates I am familiar with Appius Galerius Aurelianus, a cultor
        Deorum, and with Tiberius Horatius Barbatus.

        For Aedilis Curulis: Unfortunately we have only one candidate when
        two are needed. This has become one of the most difficult offices to
        fill. The Aediles Curules manage the Magna Mater Project, they
        manage the macellum, and they are also responsible for offering the
        many ludi produced each year. Gnaeus Iulius shall have a difficult
        time following the example of past Aediles. He cannot work alone,
        and so his first task shall be to put together a strong team. Gnaeus
        Iulius has often been the voice of opposition to whoever served in
        office. So it shall be interesting to see how he shall do himself.
        But I am confident that he is up to the task and I shall give him my
        support in the coming year.

        For Aedilis Plebis: Again it is unfortunate to see only one candidate
        when the responsibilities are better served by colleagues. Pontifex
        Quintus Metellus Caecilius Pius has a wide range of experience,
        having served as scriba to various magistrates. In the Collegium
        Pontificum I have found him to be well organized.

        For Quaestores: There are eight candidates for eight offices. My
        first preference is Tribuna Lucia Livia Plauta of Italia. As Consul
        I have worked with Tribuna Livia often and I was quite happy to meet
        her in provincia Dacia this past summer. Second is Gaius Arminius
        Reccanellus of Brasilia. A former Quaestor, a former Tribunus
        Plebis, Propraetor of provincia Brasilia, I have had occasion to deal
        with Reccanellus many times in recent years. I have also worked on
        occasion with Tribunus Titus Flavius Aquila, as a Tribunus Plebis and
        as a cultor Deorum as well. Flamen Quintus Valerius Poplicola and I
        first began working together in SVR and has served as my accensus and
        Latin translator this year. I regret not having worked with Tiberius
        Cornelius Scipio, our lone Assiduus from Costa Rica. It has only
        been this year that I've met Flamen Gaius Petronius Dexter and Marcus
        Valerius Potitus. I don't know Lucius Gratius Nerva. It is good to
        see some of our newer citizens begin their honorum cursus.

        For Rogatores: We have three candidates to fill two offices. The
        position of Rogator is important to the future of Nova Roma as they
        are the magistrates who first deal with applicants. Their
        responsiveness and friendliness often determines whether an applicant
        becomes a new Citizen. A Rogator must also have some skill in
        Latin. Most important though is that the Rogatores head a
        specialized team that has been built up over the past few years. I
        shall therefore recommend Quaestor Titus Arminius Genialis. He has
        often served as scriba and in other positions where he has been an
        efficiant and effective team member. I am sure he shall do well now
        in leading the team that handles over a thousand new applicants each
        year. Second, I shall recommend Gaius Tullius Valerianus Germanicus.
        A Rogator must be well acquainted with Latin in that he assists
        others in choosing a proper Roman name. Gaius Valerianus has been a
        Latin teacher in parochial schools. The third candidate, Aula Tullia
        Scholastica is the most knowledgable of the three candidates when it
        comes to Latin and the position of Rogator. She has served in other
        magistracies, the highest being Praetor. She has long served on the
        team that the Rogatores shall lead. Although highly skilled and
        experienced, Scholastica lacks the one skill that I find essential to
        this position and that is an ability to work cordially with others.
        Her strong sense of morality and her personal virtues are most praise-
        worthy, but too often these have inhibiting factors inside various
        teams on which she has served. Her skills skills and character, I
        feel, would serve better elsewhere.

        For Custodes: I cannot lend enough praise to Senator Marcus
        Lucretius Agricola. Our Citizens are not well informed on all that
        goes on in Nova Roma. Marcus Agricola has been essential in many
        areas, including in his duties as Magister Aranearius. As for Lucius
        Salix Cicero, he is my personal friend of many years. There are many
        things I could say about my friend, having follwed his adventures
        across the globe. English by birth, having spent a good portion of
        his life in Spain, living in Costa Rica, then Peru, and now off to
        Moscow to teach English, my friend Salix is an international Citizen
        in an international organization. Mild mannered, thoughtful, and
        with the appearance of a Greek God, he is much that I am not. He is
        well suited to serve in this office.

        For Diribitores: Four candidates to fill four offices. I regret that
        I am not very familiar with the candidates. I have observed Annia
        Minucia Marcella for some years. Recently I recommended that the
        Collegium Pontificum appoint her as a Lictor. Propraetor et Sacerdos
        Marcus Octavius Corvus has recently come to Nova Roma and has become
        very active, building up provincia Sarmatia for us and working with
        the Collegium Pontificum as well. Gaius Terrentius Varro and Marcus
        Valerius Traianus are both from my home provincia of Magni Lacus.
        Both have been Citizens for roughly eight years now. These are the
        sort of Citizens that Nova Roma depends on. So I am glad to see them
        now taking an active role.


        On the Rogationes, I shall vote in favor of all the proposed Leges
        Moraviae Iuliae.

        Vos quod fexitis, Deos omnes fortunare velim.


        Marcus Moravius Piscinus Horatianus

        Consul Maior Senatus Poppulique Novae Romae
        Pontifex Maximus
        Augur et Magister Collegii
        Flamen Carmentalis
        Procurator Lacus Magni
        Sacerdos Lacus Magni
        Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59175 From: marcushoratius Date: 2008-11-15
        Subject: On the Leges Moraviae Iuliae
        M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus Consul et Pontifex Maximus: Senatui
        Populoque Novo Romano, T. Iulio Sabino Consuli collegae Quiritibus, et
        omnibus: salutem plurimam dicunt: Di Deaeque immortales vos omnes ament

        Over the past few weeks I have been indisposed and unavailable. As
        some are aware, certain periods of the year can be most difficult on my
        condition, and October/November is one of the worse. Even now it is
        very difficult for me to sit up and type. But I should be remissed if
        I did not address some of the criticizisms that have been raised and
        allow our Citizens to vote against the proposed leges based only on
        those criticisms.

        In short, we have more magisterial offices than are needed. We have
        not seen enough candidates to even fill that number of offices. We
        have not seen much competition in our elections in recent years. The
        proposed leges on our magistrates deal with all these current problems
        while offering us a way to readjust to our needs in the future. As
        Consul I ask our Quirites to vote in favor of the Leges Moravia Iulia
        on our magistrates. I have expressed my reasons in proposing these
        leges. Now I shall offer some rebuttal to the criticisms raised in
        opposing them.

        It was said that the proposed leges on the magistrates are too
        ambiguous. I say instead that they offer us more flexibility. The
        Constitution should only set out principles. Leges of the Comitia then
        define. The Leges Moraviae Iuliae will empower the Comitia to have
        more determination over not just who or how many should be our
        magistrates, but what shall be their respective duties and powers. If
        you read the current Constitution, there is very little in disguishing
        between the duties of the magistrates. There is nothing that gives the
        Comitia authority to say more on the magistrates, and so the
        Constitution becomes a limiting factor. What our proposed leges offer
        the Citizens of Nova Roma is greater authority and more flexibility to
        define and tailor the magistrates for our organizational needs.


        Secondly, I have seen some "what if's" posed against the proposed Leges
        Moraviae Iuliae. The authors of these proposals prefer to reduce the
        over all number of magistrates. But rather than make our own
        recommendations on what is needed now, we moved to leave open what the
        number should be so that in the future we can adjust to our changing
        needs. What we would like to see is a reduction in the number of
        Quaestores from eight to four, and a reduction of the number of Tribuni
        from five to three.

        There was never any intention to see the number of praetores reduced to
        one. Nor would we suggest that their number be increased. Our stated
        goal is to reduce the number of magistrates, not increase their number.
        And we have also stated that our interest is in seeing our magistrates
        better tailored to our needs, so we certainly would not advocate having
        only one Praetor. The "what if" on how increasing the number of
        praetores would effect the choices available for adlection to the
        Senate is a non-argument. The situation is based on a current lex, not
        the Constitution itself, and it would lead to just one of the needed
        adjustments to our organizational structures.

        On reducing the number of Tribunes, Tribunus Plebis Aquila and I
        disagree. First, let it be clear that the Consules discussed this
        matter with Tribuna Livia Plauta and that she is one of the authors to
        the proposals. Secondly, I am a former Tribunus, and more familiar
        than Tribunus Aquila in the Nova Roma developments of the Tribuni
        Plebis. Tribunus Aquila says that reducing the number of Tribuni will
        weaken them. I say that it shall stregnthen their relative position.
        It shall also lend a side benefit in reducing the number of offices
        that do not require prior experience in office. Therefore it shall
        make the elections for Tribuni Plebis more competitive, and could also
        provide more candidates for other, lower adminstration offices where we
        often find a shortage of candidates. More competitive races should
        also tend to providing better qualified Tribuni Plebis, hopefully ones
        that know the Constitution well.

        Tribunus Aquila says that such a proposal on changing the offices of
        the Tribuni Plebis should be considered in the Comitia Plebis Tributa
        and not in the Comitia Centuriata. Well, I agree with him there. But
        if he would read the Constitution he would know that any change to the
        Constitution that would give the CPT such authority must first go
        through the Comitia Centuriata. He might also see how our Plebeian
        Tribuni have been slighted in the Constitution by placing them below
        not only the Aediles Curules, but also below the Aediles Plebis. The
        proposed Lex Moravia Iulia de Tribunis Plebis shall correct this.

        In regard to the Censores, many of their duties have already been
        transferred to the Rogatores. Their one remaining responsibility is to
        conduct the census once every two years, and then to adjust the Senate
        accordingly. Historically, the censores were elected once in five
        years, and served a term of about eighteen months. Most improtant was
        that they were elected collegially, under the same auspices. We would
        like to see Nova Roma take up this practice as we also seek to further
        develop the religious role of the Censores in performing a lustratio to
        bless Nova Roma. One suggestion has been to reduce their term of
        office to eighteen months as censores historically held. I don't see
        any problem with them serving eighteen months or two years, so long as
        they are elected collegially. However, reducing their term of office
        to one year will afford them enough to complete their duties, while
        potentially providing Nova Roma additional candidates in other offices
        as the censores will no longer be inelligible to run for office for two
        years.



        Lex Moravia Iulia ratione comitiorum centuriatorum is a much needed
        reform of our voting procedure to reduce voter confusion. It is in the
        best interest of the Res Publica to pass this lex.


        In the recent discussions of the Collegium Pontificum it became clear
        that the Constitution set some limitations on reforming our religious
        institutions by over-legislating on two sacerdotal collegia, while not
        providing for restoring the ancient collegia and sodalitates. There is
        also some awkward wording in the current Constitution that is contrary
        to the interests of the Res Publica by again over-legislating on
        details. As Pontifex Maximus I ask the Comitia Centuriata to simplify
        the wording of the Constitution and provide the Collegium Pontificum
        with the authority and flexibility it needs to restore our religious
        institutions.

        In conjunction with this proposal has been the Lex de tributao Vestales
        Virgines. As Pontifex Maximus I shall be working with the Collegium
        Pontificum to restore this very important priesthood for Nova Roma.
        The Vestales Virgines are central and essential to any attempt to
        restore the religio Romana. The Collegium shall seek to have our
        Vestales perform more of their traditional duties, and thereby they are
        likely to incur more expenses. The proportion of women in Nova Roma is
        rather small. Thus the number of available candidates are few. By
        granting a tax exemption we shall be able to recruit new Vestales and
        offer them Assidua status in return for the serves they shall provide.
        In Roma Antiqua the State paid a salary to the Vestales Virgines. Here
        we are asking only that they become exempt from paying the annual tax
        and retain Assidua status that is required of any other priest or
        priestess to retain a sacerdotal office.


        All of the proposed Leges Moraviae Iuliae were discussed with current
        and former magistrates. There was not time enough to discuss them with
        all magistrates prior to proposing them. Not every issue that needs
        reform has been addressed in the proposals. Consul Sabinus and I are
        instead providing for future discussion in our Comitia to address
        various issues. I think that in practice you will find the entire
        package of proposals will benefit the Res Publica Liber Novae Romae,
        and therefore I strongly urge all Quirites to vote in favor of these
        proposals.
        Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59176 From: Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kelly Date: 2008-11-15
        Subject: Nazis And Paganism
        Hi everyone,

        Here is an interesting summary of the Nazis and paganism. It was just
        a small number in the party involved and apparently Himmler had his
        Disneyland sort of castle to facilitate events.

        A lot of the fundies in the states say Hitler was not Christian but
        Roman Catholic (lol) since we worship Mary, the saints and are more
        like pagan Rome. Hitler was born Roman Catholic but left the church
        and sacraments at a very early age. Ultimately he wanted to see
        Christianity gone but had to tolerate it as Germany was 2/3
        Protestant, 1/3 Catholic in his time. Martin Bormann and a few others
        wanted it destroyed doen the road. True, in his rants he'd talk
        about "positive" Chritianity in one speech, then contradict himself
        in the next saying it was incompatible with National Socialism.
        Apparently he looked the other way with regards to revived paganism
        and thought the other party members partaking in it were a little off
        their rockers in that aspect.

        http://www.whitedragon.org.uk/articles/himmler.htm


        Cheers,

        QSP
        Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59177 From: marcushoratius Date: 2008-11-15
        Subject: Centuria VI Praerogativa is Called to Vote
        M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus Consul: Senatui Populoque Novo Romano,
        T. Iulio Sabino Consuli collegae Quiritibus: salutem plurimam dicit:

        Centuria VI has been selected as Centuria Praerogativa. All members of
        Centuria VI, of which there are only five Quirites, are now called upon
        to Vote.


        To all other Citizens, do not vote before your Centuria is released to
        vote. Otherwise your vote may be discounted.

        Voting of only the Centuria Praerogativa shall continue until 07:00 CET
        17 November.
        Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59178 From: Annia Minucia Marcella Date: 2008-11-15
        Subject: Re: Nazis And Paganism
        Salve,

        Uh....ok. So what brought this up?
        Vale
        - Annia Minucia Marcella
        
        http://minucia.ciarin.com


        Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) wrote:

        Hi everyone,

        Here is an interesting summary of the Nazis and paganism. It was just
        a small number in the party involved and apparently Himmler had his
        Disneyland sort of castle to facilitate events.

        A lot of the fundies in the states say Hitler was not Christian but
        Roman Catholic (lol) since we worship Mary, the saints and are more
        like pagan Rome. Hitler was born Roman Catholic but left the church
        and sacraments at a very early age. Ultimately he wanted to see
        Christianity gone but had to tolerate it as Germany was 2/3
        Protestant, 1/3 Catholic in his time. Martin Bormann and a few others
        wanted it destroyed doen the road. True, in his rants he'd talk
        about "positive" Chritianity in one speech, then contradict himself
        in the next saying it was incompatible with National Socialism.
        Apparently he looked the other way with regards to revived paganism
        and thought the other party members partaking in it were a little off
        their rockers in that aspect.

        http://www.whitedra gon.org.uk/ articles/ himmler.htm

        Cheers,

        QSP

        Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59179 From: marcushoratius Date: 2008-11-15
        Subject: The Comitia Populi Tributa is Called to Vote
        M. Moravius Piscinus Consul: Senatui Populoque Novo Romano, T. Iulio
        Sabino Consuli collegae Quiritibus, et omnibus: salutem plurimam dicit:


        Tribus XXII Maecia having been chosen as Praesidium, the Comitia Populi
        Tributa is called to vote. Voting in the Comitia shall continue until
        17:00 hours CET Roma on 24 November A. U. C. 2761.
        Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59180 From: Lucia Livia Plauta Date: 2008-11-15
        Subject: Re: The endorsements and votes of C. Petronius Dexter.
        L. Livia C. Petronio sal.

        --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Petronius Dexter"
        <jfarnoud94@...> wrote:
        >

        > AEDILIS PLEBIS: One candidate, two positions. However we have
        according to the non official census of C. Fulvius Severus 228 plebeian
        > assidui which could be candidates! Nevertheless I cheerfully will
        vote Q. Caecilius Metellus Pius Postumianus.
        >

        Unfortunately of the 228 plebeian assidui only a minimal part can be
        candidates, unless we succeeded in repealing the Lex Arminia de cursu
        honorum.
        As the results are not known yet, cross your fingers!
        If we succeeded I have no doubt that some new candidate will show up
        in the supplemental election.

        Optime vale,
        Livia
        Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59181 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2008-11-15
        Subject: Re: The endorsements and votes of C. Petronius Dexter.
        C. Petronius L. Liviae s.p.d.,

        > Unfortunately of the 228 plebeian assidui only a minimal part can be
        > candidates, unless we succeeded in repealing the Lex Arminia de
        cursu
        > honorum.

        Yes of course all the 228 plebeians are not able to be candidates but
        according to the lex Arminia de cursu honorum, more than one plebeian
        could be candidate, as well.

        Thence the potential candidates are not 228, as you right say, but
        certainly much more than 1.

        > As the results are not known yet, cross your fingers!
        > If we succeeded I have no doubt that some new candidate will show up
        > in the supplemental election.

        Who are "we" ? Is it a Moravia-Julia-Livia lex we have to vote?

        Optime vale.

        C. Petronius Dexter
        Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59182 From: Colin Cunningham Date: 2008-11-15
        Subject: Re: Opposing the following proposed laws
        Salvete omnes,

        I would like to state that I am opposed to all those laws which state "A number of x, determined by law, shall be elected by the Comitia Centuriata to serve a term lasting one year. "  I would much rather have an upper and a lower limit set for the number of magistrates for each of those offices.  I would like to see it say,  "A number of x, between y and z as determined by law, shall be elected by the Comitia Centuriata to serve a term lasting one year."  Where x is the magistrate and y is the lower limit and z is the upper limit.  That way we can have the flexibility we sorely need, and it could help prevent any  despotism that might occur in the number of offices for any given magistrate.  

        I wish I had thought of this before the contio ended, but that is how things go.  The constitution is the highest legal document we have, and if it only states that a number of magistrates fill the position, then a law could easily be put into effect lowering a position to 0 ( a number) or raising it to 10,000 (also a number).  I feel that until a vast majority of Nova Romans wish to amend the constitution to allow for those extremes, the constitution should have an agreeable range for the number of magistrates elected.  

        Valete,

        C Fulvius Severus


        On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 12:50 PM, Gnaeus Iulius Caesar <gn_iulius_caesar@...> wrote:

        Cn. Iulius Caesar Quiritibus sal.

        As we approach the start of voting, I wanted to take this opportunity
        to give a summation of why I think the following proposed laws should
        be rejected

        NO to the Rogatio Moravia Iulia de censoribus:

        --We would benefit from keeping the current overlap between
        appointments of Censors, because of the technical nature of the
        censuria.

        NO to the Rogatio Moravia Iulia de consulibus:

        --This sets the stage for extending the reach of the Consuls into areas
        which are not their concern. It gives a blank cheque for later Consuls
        to argue for too wide an extension of their mandate and
        responsibilities.

        NO to the Rogatio Moravia Iulia de praetoribus:

        --This too allows for an extension of the Praetors powers to involve
        themselves in areas which are not their concern, nor never should be.
        This year has taught us that when two praetors, supported by the
        Consuls, set their heart on an objective, they can ride roughshod over
        the constitution, the law, and common sense. I won't even bother to
        stress decency as the entire trial process was indecent in so many
        ways. This proposal would allow the praetors to make the case for
        unfettered interference in all sorts of inappropriate areas of life in
        Nova Roma.

        Additionally by allowing the numbers to rise or fall through
        legislation alone the stage will be set for either limiting us to one
        praetor - utterly un-Roman to design a system where this is not only
        possible but approved - OR - it will be set for stuffing the Senate
        with political cronies when the numbers are increased.

        NO to the Rogatio Moravia Iulia de aedilibus curulibus:

        --The same objection as to one of the issues with the proposal for the
        Praetors, namely too great a potential expansion of the role.

        NO to the Rogatio Moravia Iulia de quaestoribus:

        --Expanding the numbers of the Quaestors is not necessary. It provides
        the potential to give a block of one's political allies a jump start of
        century points. If there is actual documented need of a shortage, then
        amend the constitution.

        For those who would like a fuller explanation of my reasons, if you
        missed my earlier posts please see the links below.

        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/59082
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/59135
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/59148
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/59152

        The Rogatio Moravia Iulia de aedilibus plebis and the Rogatio Moravia
        Iulia de tribunis plebis are matters of concern to the plebs. I won't
        comment further other than to suggest everyone read the laws by the
        links in the Wiki under the Election page, and judge what similarities
        exist to the above laws and therefore what problems. Tribune Aquila can
        speak and has spoken to those in greater detail.

        Finally...

        Vote YES for the Rogatio Moravia Iulia de ratione comitiorum
        centuriatorum.

        Valete bene,


        Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59183 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2008-11-15
        Subject: Re: Recommendations in the Elections
        Cn. Iulius Caesar M. Moravio Piscino Horatiano sal.

        Thank you for your support. Regarding your comment:

        "Gnaeus Iulius has often been the voice of opposition to whoever
        served in office. So it shall be interesting to see how he shall do
        himself. But I am confident that he is up to the task and I shall
        give him my support in the coming year."

        I have also served as accensus to two consuls, assisted Titus Iulius
        Sabinus when he was Curule Aedile and worked as Quaestor for C.
        Equitius Cato when he was Praetor. As well I have been involved for
        some time with Sodalitas Egressus and Sodalitas Militarium. I am also
        legatus pro praetore. I am quite capabale of working with people, and
        have done so on numerous projects.

        If I have been a voice of opposition then it is entirely due to some
        Magistrates over the years making a career out of breaking the
        constitution, laws, flouting Roman custom, and proposing new laws
        that were flawed or potentially dangerous. Had they not done that
        then I wouldn't have had such an active career opposing them.

        The level and frequency of my opposition speaks more to the level and
        frequency of the incompetence of others, rather than to any
        compulsive desire on my part to spend hours debating with them.


        --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "marcushoratius" <MHoratius@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > M. Moravius Piscinus Consul maior et Pontifex Maximus: Senatui
        > Populoque Novo Romano, Quiritibus: salutem plurimam dicunt: Deos
        ego
        Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59184 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2008-11-15
        Subject: Re: On the Leges Moraviae Iuliae
        Cn. Iulius Caesar M. Moravio Piscino Horatiano sal.

        I note you say:

        "There was never any intention to see the number of praetores reduced
        to one. Nor would we suggest that their number be increased. Our
        stated goal is to reduce the number of magistrates, not increase
        their number. And we have also stated that our interest is in seeing
        our magistrates better tailored to our needs, so we certainly would
        not advocate having only one Praetor. The "what if" on how increasing
        the number of praetores would effect the choices available for
        adlection to the Senate is a non-argument. The situation is based on
        a current lex, not the Constitution itself, and it would lead to just
        one of the needed adjustments to our organizational structures."

        Perhaps you need to read your own proposed lex again. You allow for
        the number of Praetors to be changed by law, yet here you say you
        don't want to increase the number or decrease it. Well Consul, if you
        don't see a need to change the number of Praetors, why change the
        Constitution? Why introduce the mechanism where others, less benign
        than you, will do precisely that? Something doesn't seem to add up
        here.

        Also I note you state that stuffing the Senate is a non-argument.
        Really? Yes - it is based on a law - the Lex Popillia senatoria> what
        is this "needed adjustments to our organizational structures"? I
        assume you now also want to repeal or alter the Lex Popillia
        senatoria. That can be the only way to prevent the Senate being
        stuffed with a gaggle of ex-praetors under your proposals.

        Exactly what are you changing the rules on Senatorial adelection to?
        I assume that to make logical sense of your previous comment on the
        necessary changes and there in essence being no danger of Senate
        stuffing, that you want to restrict membership of the Senate? When
        will this occur? After the first stuffing of the Senatorial turkey?

        Exactly how long have you been planning these "needed adjustments to
        our organizational structures" and with who? As your term of office
        is about to end, your dismissal of Senate stuffing as a danger and
        indicating that you will change the adelection process, clearly tells
        me that a group of Magistrates are behind this and some who will be
        Magistrates next year. Are the two Consular candidates for next year
        the ones who will change the Lex Popillia senatoria?

        Don't you think that these, supposed, needed adjustments should have
        been the subject of considerable debate and consultation, in an open
        and transparent manner? Without that degree of openess these
        proposals look more like a receipe for consolidating a grip on the
        Senate and limiting choice. You open yourself, in my estimation, to
        the charge that you have set out on a well planned course to
        radically alter the balance of the Senate, one way or another, and
        manipulate the number of magisterial positions available.

        No Consul, either these are poorly planned changes badly thought out,
        or, they are the product of a well planned and coordinated effort to
        alter the balance of influence and Senatorial numbers in Nova Roma.
        You cannot have your cake and eat it. I may add if they were that
        well planned, then why didn't you expend the same degree of effort in
        openly debating this throughout Nova Roma.

        Didn't you used to be one of the most vocal of speakers in favour of
        inclusiveness and consultation? I see none of that in these proposals.


        --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "marcushoratius" <MHoratius@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus Consul et Pontifex Maximus: Senatui
        > Populoque Novo Romano, T. Iulio Sabino Consuli collegae Quiritibus,
        et
        >
        Group: Nova-Roma Message: 59185 From: Robert Levee Date: 2008-11-15
        Subject: Re: Nazis And Paganism
        Salve, Hmmm,not I.

        Vale,
        Ap.Galerius Aurelianus


        --- On Sat, 11/15/08, Annia Minucia Marcella <annia@...> wrote:

        > From: Annia Minucia Marcella <annia@...>
        > Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Nazis And Paganism
        > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Saturday, November 15, 2008, 11:33 AM
        > Salve,
        >
        > Uh....ok. So what brought this up?
        >
        > Vale
        > - Annia Minucia Marcella
        >
        > http://minucia.ciarin.com
        >
        >
        >
        > Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) wrote:
        > >
        > > Hi everyone,
        > >
        > > Here is an interesting summary of the Nazis and
        > paganism. It was just
        > > a small number in the party involved and apparently
        > Himmler had his
        > > Disneyland sort of castle to facilitate events.
        > >
        > > A lot of the fundies in the states say Hitler was not
        > Christian but
        > > Roman Catholic (lol) since we worship Mary, the saints
        > and are more
        > > like pagan Rome. Hitler was born Roman Catholic but
        > left the church
        > > and sacraments at a very early age. Ultimately he
        > wanted to see
        > > Christianity gone but had to tolerate it as Germany
        > was 2/3
        > > Protestant, 1/3 Catholic in his time. Martin Bormann
        > and a few others
        > > wanted it destroyed doen the road. True, in his rants
        > he'd talk
        > > about "positive" Chritianity in one speech,
        > then contradict himself
        > > in the next saying it was incompatible with National
        > Socialism.
        > > Apparently he looked the other way with regards to
        > revived paganism
        > > and thought the other party members partaking in it
        > were a little off
        > > their rockers in that aspect.
        > >
        > > http://www.whitedragon.org.uk/articles/himmler.htm
        > >
        > <http://www.whitedragon.org.uk/articles/himmler.htm>
        > >
        > > Cheers,
        > >
        > > QSP
        > >
        > >