Vale
- Annia Minucia Marcella

http://minucia.ciarin.com

lol Topical as always Marcella. I must admit I got a good laugh. =)

 

Is this WoW? It seems pretty complex for a fantasy universe.

 

Vale,

Regulus

.

>
> Salve Catalina,
> no, in general Romans did not take particular care of the
> environment. Their exploitation led to the extintion of afium, a
> plant relative of assafoetida, and to the extintion of various animal
> species in North Africa.
>
> The notable exceptions were sacred groves and grounds. Those enjoyed
> a protection equivalent to that of national parks today (and much
> more effective).
>
> Apparently also the long strips of pine forests on Italy's coastlines
> were planted by the Romans. And we are definitely thankful for that,
> because there's nothing better than these natural providers of shade
> (and pine seeds) when going to the seaside. Unfortunately a lot of
> them were ruined in the last 50 years, when environmental destruction
> took on an unprecedented scale.
>
> Anyway, while environmental awareness was not necessarirly a trait of
> Religio in ancient times, that doesn't mean that it can't be for us
> in the present. In fact, I suspect this is, consciously or
> unconsciously, an important part of the attraction neopagan cults
> hold on people these days.
>
> Optime vale,
> Livia
>
> PS: On another theme, I would join Lentulus in recommending you to
> use Catalina, and not Cornuta, as your cognomen (or anything but
> Cornuta). You see, in Italian "cornuta" means, as in Latin, someone
> with horns, but the secondary meaning is "someone who's being
> betrayed by their spouse". In all neolatin languages it's quite a
> heavy insult, and it's something I would consider ill-omened for a
> nickname. I have a sneaking suspiction that this meaning was already
> present in the original Latin.
>
>
>
> Salve
> > Salve
> >
> > Livia said :
> >
> > "For Christians (for all of them, right from the origins) the human
> >
> > body was just a filthy temporary receptacle for the soul, which
> would
> >
> > be "freed" from it in death."
> >
> > Livia- one could make the same case for the way the Christians'
> regard the earth itself (it is merely a way station on the way to
> eternal salvation in heaven) and the resulting lack of stewardship
> over nature resulting in devestation of the land.
> >
> > Would the Roman pagans have taken better care of forests, water,
> and so forth? It certainly seems that many pagan cults (especially
> the more animist ones) would have taken greater care with the
> environment. -Ellen
> >
>

>
> As I believe Lentulus told Petronius Dexter earlier, derogatory
> nicknames were common in ancient Rome.
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucia Livia Plauta"
> <livia.plauta@> wrote:
> >
> > Salve Catalina,
> > no, in general Romans did not take particular care of the
> > environment. Their exploitation led to the extintion of afium, a
> > plant relative of assafoetida, and to the extintion of various

> > species in North Africa.
> >
> > The notable exceptions were sacred groves and grounds. Those

> > a protection equivalent to that of national parks today (and much
> > more effective).
> >
> > Apparently also the long strips of pine forests on Italy's

> > were planted by the Romans. And we are definitely thankful for

> > because there's nothing better than these natural providers of

> > (and pine seeds) when going to the seaside. Unfortunately a lot

> > them were ruined in the last 50 years, when environmental

> > took on an unprecedented scale.
> >
> > Anyway, while environmental awareness was not necessarirly a

> > Religio in ancient times, that doesn't mean that it can't be for

> > in the present. In fact, I suspect this is, consciously or
> > unconsciously, an important part of the attraction neopagan cults
> > hold on people these days.
> >
> > Optime vale,
> > Livia
> >
> > PS: On another theme, I would join Lentulus in recommending you

> > use Catalina, and not Cornuta, as your cognomen (or anything but
> > Cornuta). You see, in Italian "cornuta" means, as in Latin,

> > with horns, but the secondary meaning is "someone who's being
> > betrayed by their spouse". In all neolatin languages it's quite a
> > heavy insult, and it's something I would consider ill-omened for

> > nickname. I have a sneaking suspiction that this meaning was

> > present in the original Latin.
> >
> >
> >
> > Salve
> > > Salve
> > >
> > > Livia said :
> > >
> > > "For Christians (for all of them, right from the origins) the

> > >
> > > body was just a filthy temporary receptacle for the soul, which
> > would
> > >
> > > be "freed" from it in death."
> > >
> > > Livia- one could make the same case for the way the Christians'
> > regard the earth itself (it is merely a way station on the way to
> > eternal salvation in heaven) and the resulting lack of

> > over nature resulting in devestation of the land.
> > >
> > > Would the Roman pagans have taken better care of forests,

> > and so forth? It certainly seems that many pagan cults

> > the more animist ones) would have taken greater care with the
> > environment. -Ellen
> > >
> >
>

A. Tullia Scholastica M. Hortensiae quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
 

Maior Varroni spd:
 my apologies Varro, years ago I'd read that the temple of Bona Dea
on the Aventine was Rome's officila abortion clinic. But I cannot
find the quotation anywhere.
 Instead I can tell you that Bona Dea was a goddess of healing and
fertility. Her temple precincts had snakes everywhere and the
priestesses kept a herbarium and dispensed herbal preparations...

Macrobius l.c : quidam Medam putant, quod in aede eius omne genus
herbarum sit ex quibus antistites dant plerumque medicinas

translation (dieux je fais un traduction de Latine, j'espere ce soit
juste. :
 they seem like a sort of Medea, becaue in her temple is every type
of herb from which the priestesses give many medicines.

    ATS:  Shockingly, your translation is quite close, though I am not sure of the reading on Medam, and there is a little matter regarding plerumque.   Normally this name should be Medeam, or Mediam, but the nominative Mede, which would yield Meden or Medam, is also found.  As for plerumque, it is normally an adjective (plerusque, pleraque, plerumque), which means it cannot be taken with medicinas, for it would have to be plerasque.  It can, however, be an adverb, which seems more likely here:  very often, very frequently, but later on, as here, it probably lost the intensification, and simply became often or frequently.  Incidentally, Mede/Medea/Media need not be the actual character by that name, but someone who used/worked with drugs (and poisons...).  

    If you keep up your Latin, you might become better still.  I know someone who should be working on her midterm examination before the sound files disappear from the Yahoo list we have had to use in place of the Academia Thules’ dead server.  

about the other, the differences among Christian culti, I don't
understand a word either:)

    ATS:  Christianity is not a cult; it is a religion...and the plural of cultus is cultús, with a long  final u, being that it is in the fourth declension, not the second.  

 optime vale
 Maior

Vale, et valete.




> Just curious...
> what is the link between the worship of Bona Dea and abortion?
>
> and i don't understant this sentence "the Roman
> Catholic church is a relative newbie - the Eastern Orthodox Church
> was around and running for a couple of centuries before the Roman
> church stuck its toe in the authority-figure waters"
> each church is so ancient as the others... and we can't spaak of
eastern and western churches as 2 separate entities before 1054
> so i don't see what you mean
> in fact you could say the church began to speak latin in Africa in
the IInd century (with tertullianus and others)before she spoke Greek
even in Italy
>
> Varo
>
>
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Titus Annaeus Regulus
>   To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>  
>   Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 7:39 PM
>   Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Regulus & Maior Conversation was [ Re:
Curious non-member with some questions.]
>
>
>
>   Salve Cato,
>
>   I was not offended by her comment, merely in disagreement. I have
not known her long enough to be sure whether you are kidding me or
serious; but if people choose to believe that something is true
regardless of logic demanding that it is not.. well I can hardly
fault her for that if I choose to believe in Immaculate Conception
can I? lol
>
>   It is most definitely an older tradition. Which is probably what
I should have pointed out earlier. The Christian churches
(particularly in the West) were so far separated from original
Christianity, and so influenced by secular powers in the Roman
Empire, that inevitably the RC church absorbed huge amounts of
beliefs and practices from existing Roman ones. Even the Latin title
of the Pope, Pontifex Maximus, is rooted in pagan Roman religion. To
say that Christianity displaced Roman culture seems erroneous to me
and I prefer to see an evolution of two traditions towards one that
was acceptable to the common people who were Romans. The early church
was spread with words and deeds and so the church needed to make
itself as attractive as possible to gain converts. Being seen as
foreign and alien would hardly have helped. In fact, using your
example of the subjugation of women, I recall that there were female
equivalents of all religious positions (priests, deacons, etc) in the
early eastern church and that it was the later, Roman-influenced
church that was male-only, more in line with patriarchal Roman
society. Very interesting point of view on this Cato, I have found it
highly enlightening.
>
>   Vale,
>   Regulus
>
>
>
>
>   From: Gaius Equitius Cato
>   Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 10:27 AM
>   To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>  
>   Subject: [Nova-Roma] Regulus & Maior Conversation was [ Re:
Curious non-member with some questions.]
>
>
>   Cato omnes in foro SPD
>
>   Salvete.
>
>   Remember that the Romans and Greeks thought that exposing a
newborn
>   child to the elements and allowing it to die was perfectly
>   acceptable, even if its only crime was to be born female; just
>   because an activity was in fact practiced does *not* make it
>   acceptable or moral. I would not, if I were Maior, go trumpeting
>   the fact that an activity that many find morally unacceptable was
a
>   big selling point in the worship of the Bona Dea. I am not
>   surprised that some on the Latin List were ... "shocked".
>
>   Regulus, you'll have to get used to Maior. Every single ill that
>   could possibly befall the human race - or has ever already
befallen
>   it - will, in her experience, find its root cause in
Christianity; I
>   think she throws the "Judeo" bit on the front to appear more
>   moderate than she actually is. What she seems to forget is that,
>   like Satanists celebrating a "Black Mass" in mockery of the real
>   one, her railings only give proof to the power inherent in the
thing
>   mocked.
>
>   Like Dan Brown, she also consistently forgets that the Roman
>   Catholic church is a relative newbie - the Eastern Orthodox
Church
>   was around and running for a couple of centuries before the Roman
>   church stuck its toe in the authority-figure waters. True that it
>   was some early Fathers and a couple of bishops of Rome that gave
>   traction to the idea of sex being somehow unclean, but the
general
>   subjugation of women in society is an incredibly far older
practice
>   than that, spanning across the arc of recorded history. This
>   doesn't mean it's acceptable, just that it is a fact of history.
>
>   Valete,
>
>   Cato
>
>
>
>   
>
>
>   
----------------------------------------------------------

> [...] The great school of moral objectivism [...]

A. Tullia Scholastica L. Liviae Plautae S. Agoriae Cornutae quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
 

Salve Catalina,
no, in general Romans did not take particular care of the
environment. Their exploitation led to the extintion of afium, a
plant relative of assafoetida, and to the extintion of various animal
species in North Africa.

    ATS:  The ancients in general did not.   

The notable exceptions were sacred groves and grounds. Those enjoyed
a protection equivalent to that of national parks today (and much
more effective).

Apparently also the long strips of pine forests on Italy's coastlines
were planted by the Romans. And we are definitely thankful for that,
because there's nothing better than these natural providers of shade
(and pine seeds) when going to the seaside. Unfortunately a lot of
them were ruined in the last 50 years, when environmental destruction
took on an unprecedented scale.

Anyway, while environmental awareness was not necessarirly a trait of
Religio in ancient times, that doesn't mean that it can't be for us
in the present. In fact, I suspect this is, consciously or
unconsciously, an important part of the attraction neopagan cults
hold on people these days.

Optime vale,
Livia

PS: On another theme, I would join Lentulus in recommending you to
use Catalina, and not Cornuta, as your cognomen (or anything but
Cornuta). You see, in Italian "cornuta" means, as in Latin, someone
with horns, but the secondary meaning is "someone who's being
betrayed by their spouse". In all neolatin languages it's quite a
heavy insult, and it's something I would consider ill-omened for a
nickname. I have a sneaking suspiction that this meaning was already
present in the original Latin.

    ATS:  The Oxford Latin Dictionary lists no such meaning for the original classical Latin word cornutus.  Neither does the older Lewis and Short Latin dictionary, which covers a longer time period.  Here we are dealing with classical Latin, not later developments; we have citizens whose cognomen is Cornutus; one is in my classes.  This is also an attested Roman cognomen, borne by a praetor mentioned by Cicero and a grammarian in Gellius.   There is no hint of being cuckolded (that is what we call this...).

    Prospective citizen Catalina/Cornuta has been reassigned to me, and if the gods of e-mail permit, I shall work with her to select a proper Roman name, for her nomen, while used in NR, is not ancient.  

Vale, et valete.  



Salve
> Salve
>
> Livia said :
>
> "For Christians (for all of them, right from the origins) the human
>
> body was just a filthy temporary receptacle for the soul, which
would
>
> be "freed" from it in death."
>
> Livia- one could make the same case for the way the Christians'
regard the earth itself (it is merely a way station on the way to
eternal salvation in heaven) and the resulting lack of stewardship
over nature resulting in devestation of the land.
>
> Would the Roman pagans have taken better care of forests, water,
and so forth? It certainly seems that many pagan cults (especially
the more animist ones) would have taken greater care with the
environment. -Ellen
>

  
      

> -Sure, but would you give yourself one? using cognomina such as
> flava, rufa, strabo, scaevola seem reasonable physical descriptions
> but 'cornuta' cuckold is not.

>
> In Latin cornutus did not mean cuckold. You have the cognomen
> Cornutus historical for sure, e.g. Annaeus Cornutus the philosopher
> and teacher of the poet Persius.
>
> Never Catullus, Martial, Petronius or Apuleius used the word

> to name the several cuckolds that they laughed.
>
> Horns were the symbol of the power. Like Dionysos, Alexander is
> horned on several portrait, the horns of the cows are the emblem of
> Magna Mater and a symbol of fertility.
>
>
> Vale.
> C. Petronius Dexter
>

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Ellen Catalina <ellencatalina@...> wrote:
>
> Actually, that is why I was attracted to the name "Cornuta", because I love the horned
gods of all the pagan pantheons such as Pan and Cerunos. It is kind of an inside joke to
me because when you mention "the horned one" to a pagan they will usually have a happy
association with the term. If you talk about "the horned one" to a Christian on the other
hand the association is anything but pleasant! 
>
> I am familiar with the term "wearing the horns" in Italian culture though, and believe
me, I never want to the be the one "wearing the horns"! I have always been curious about
that saying and its origins. How did cuckolded come to be associated with horns?
>
>  It is true though, that the association is now very deeply embedded in the Italian
language.-Ellen
>
>  
>
> --- On Mon, 2/9/09, Gaius Petronius Dexter <jfarnoud94@...> wrote:
> From: Gaius Petronius Dexter <jfarnoud94@...>
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Regulus & Maior Conversation was [ Re: Curious non-member
with some questions.]
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, February 9, 2009, 9:28 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> C. Petronius Maiori s.p.d.,
>
>
>
> > -Sure, but would you give yourself one? using cognomina such as
>
> > flava, rufa, strabo, scaevola seem reasonable physical descriptions
>
> > but 'cornuta' cuckold is not.
>
>
>
> In Latin cornutus did not mean cuckold. You have the cognomen
>
> Cornutus historical for sure, e.g. Annaeus Cornutus the philosopher
>
> and teacher of the poet Persius.
>
>
>
> Never Catullus, Martial, Petronius or Apuleius used the word cornutus
>
> to name the several cuckolds that they laughed.
>
>
>
> Horns were the symbol of the power. Like Dionysos, Alexander is
>
> horned on several portrait, the horns of the cows are the emblem of
>
> Magna Mater and a symbol of fertility.
>
>
>
> Vale.
>
> C. Petronius Dexter
>

----- Original Message -----

From: Titus Annaeus Regulus

To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 3:05 AM

Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Regulus & Maior Conversation was [ Re: Curious non-member with some questions.]

Salve Regule,

Regulus: Salve Livia,
just some quick comments.

>
> To say that Christianity displaced Roman culture seems erroneous to
me and I prefer to see an evolution of two traditions towards one
that was acceptable to the common people who were Romans. The early
church was spread with words and deeds and so the church needed to
make itself as attractive as possible to gain converts.

LLP: You forget that Christianity never spread to a relevant
percentage of the population before it was imposed by law. It was by
no means acceptable to Romans in general.
There was no such thing as an evolution of two traditions towards
one. There was a religion that was spread with violence and edicts,
but later realized that even these means would never be enough, so
tried to assimilate as many aspects of the previous tradition as it
could.

 

Regulus: I think here you give early Christians far too much credit. If, as you say, Christians were a small minority of the population, and most Romans were very much against Christianity, how exactly did Christianity manage to become the state religion? The emperors made it so, not Christians themselves. In these early times, the Church was not even a truly unified organization, so common goals would have been difficult in the extreme. So, in my mind, the emperor must have had good reason to make it so. Since the Roman elite were famously pagan even in later times, I would discount personal conviction. Thus being popular amongst the masses must be the reason. Which means a significant portion of the population must actually be Christian. Unless you have another theory? I am always open to other ideas. =)

Being seen as foreign and alien would hardly have helped.

LLP: No, it didn't help. Making it a compulsory State religion did.

 

Regulus: Once again, you seem to assume that the Christian God actually took control over the Roman state and imposed His will on everyone. This did not happen, Roman Emperors made the decrees, not Christian bishops.

In fact, using your example of the subjugation of women, I recall
that there were female equivalents of all religious positions
(priests, deacons, etc) in the early eastern church and that it was
the later, Roman-influenced church that was male-only, more in line
with patriarchal Roman society. Very interesting point of view on
this Cato, I have found it highly enlightening.

LLP: This was, in fact one point of attraction of Christianity for
women, so was the possibility of not having to marry and have
children.

 

Regulus: It was definitely one of the few avenues open to women who were not interested in the typical home-maker role.

Optime vale,
Livia

 

Optime Vale,

Regulus

From: Lucia Livia Plauta

Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 10:35 PM

To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com

Subject: [Nova-Roma] Regulus & Maior Conversation was [ Re: Curious non-member with some questions.]

Salve Regule,
just some quick comments.

>
> To say that Christianity displaced Roman culture seems erroneous to
me and I prefer to see an evolution of two traditions towards one
that was acceptable to the common people who were Romans. The early
church was spread with words and deeds and so the church needed to
make itself as attractive as possible to gain converts.

LLP: You forget that Christianity never spread to a relevant
percentage of the population before it was imposed by law. It was by
no means acceptable to Romans in general.
There was no such thing as an evolution of two traditions towards
one. There was a religion that was spread with violence and edicts,
but later realized that even these means would never be enough, so
tried to assimilate as many aspects of the previous tradition as it
could.

Being seen as foreign and alien would hardly have helped.

LLP: No, it didn't help. Making it a compulsory State religion did.

In fact, using your example of the subjugation of women, I recall
that there were female equivalents of all religious positions
(priests, deacons, etc) in the early eastern church and that it was
the later, Roman-influenced church that was male-only, more in line
with patriarchal Roman society. Very interesting point of view on
this Cato, I have found it highly enlightening.

LLP: This was, in fact one point of attraction of Christianity for
women, so was the possibility of not having to marry and have
children.

Optime vale,
Livia

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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 ----- Original Message -----

From: Kristoffer From

To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:04 AM

Subject: [Nova-Roma] Moral objectivism (was: Regulus & Maior Conversation)

Gaius Equitius Cato wrote:
> [...] The great school of moral objectivism [...]

Salve,

If ever there was an oxymoron..." moral objectivism" . Nothing - NOTHING -
is objectively evil. Or good. Murder is commited, legally and
state-sanctioned, on a daily basis in many countries around the world,
often under the label "capital punishment". It's all about frame of
reference.

The closest common conception in the post-Christian west of "evil" is
"egoism", much as that of "good" is "altruism". However, from a rational
viewpoint, the opposite would be true for both - as, indeed, is expected
of consumers in a capitalistic framework.

Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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----- Original Message -----

From: Gaius Equitius Cato

To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 9:17 AM

Subject: [Nova-Roma] Regulus & Maior Conversation was [ Re: Curious non-member with some questions.]

Cato Ellen sal.

Here's what Wikipedia says:

"In Brazil, Germany, Bulgaria, Greece, Italy, Poland, Portugal, Russia, Czech Republic,
Croatia, Hungary, Slovenia, Turkey, Spanish speaking countries and also Arabic speaking
countries, "horns" are a metaphor for suffering the infidelity of a partner, not limited to
husbands in modern usage. The term dates from the Roman empire, since legionaries
returning from the war were given horns as a triumph or prize. So, the use of the term is a
mockery of the husband, victorious in the battlefield, but defeated in his own bed. The
gesture of the horned hand can be used to insult the cuckold.

Cuckolds have sometimes been written as "wearing the horns of a cuckold" or just
"wearing the horns". This refers to the fact that the man being cuckolded is the last to
know of his wife's infidelity. He is wearing horns that can be seen by everybody but him.
This also refers to a tradition claiming that in villages of unknown European location, the
community would gather to collectively humiliate a man whose wife gives birth to a child
recognizably not his own. According to this legend, a parade was held in which the
hapless husband is forced to wear antlers on his head as a symbol of his wife's infidelity.
Whether this did actually happen or not is inconsequential as the phrase has survived."

Vale!

Cato

P.S. - my favorite of the Horned Ones has been Herne the Hunter ever since I read Susan
Cooper's "The Dark Is Rising" :) GEC

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, Ellen Catalina <ellencatalina@ ...> wrote:
>
> Actually, that is why I was attracted to the name "Cornuta", because I love the horned
gods of all the pagan pantheons such as Pan and Cerunos. It is kind of an inside joke to
me because when you mention "the horned one" to a pagan they will usually have a happy
association with the term. If you talk about "the horned one" to a Christian on the other
hand the association is anything but pleasant! 
>
> I am familiar with the term "wearing the horns" in Italian culture though, and believe
me, I never want to the be the one "wearing the horns"! I have always been curious about
that saying and its origins. How did cuckolded come to be associated with horns?
>
>  It is true though, that the association is now very deeply embedded in the Italian
language.-Ellen
>
>  
>
> --- On Mon, 2/9/09, Gaius Petronius Dexter <jfarnoud94@ ...> wrote:
> From: Gaius Petronius Dexter <jfarnoud94@ ...>
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Regulus & Maior Conversation was [ Re: Curious non-member
with some questions.]
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
> Date: Monday, February 9, 2009, 9:28 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> C. Petronius Maiori s.p.d.,
>
>
>
> > -Sure, but would you give yourself one? using cognomina such as
>
> > flava, rufa, strabo, scaevola seem reasonable physical descriptions
>
> > but 'cornuta' cuckold is not.
>
>
>
> In Latin cornutus did not mean cuckold. You have the cognomen
>
> Cornutus historical for sure, e.g. Annaeus Cornutus the philosopher
>
> and teacher of the poet Persius.
>
>
>
> Never Catullus, Martial, Petronius or Apuleius used the word cornutus
>
> to name the several cuckolds that they laughed.
>
>
>
> Horns were the symbol of the power. Like Dionysos, Alexander is
>
> horned on several portrait, the horns of the cows are the emblem of
>
> Magna Mater and a symbol of fertility.
>
>
>
> Vale.
>
> C. Petronius Dexter
>

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A. Tullia Scholastica L. Liviae Plautae S. Agoriae Cornutae quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
 

Salve Catalina,
no, in general Romans did not take particular care of the
environment. Their exploitation led to the extintion of afium, a
plant relative of assafoetida, and to the extintion of various animal
species in North Africa.

    ATS:  The ancients in general did not.   

The notable exceptions were sacred groves and grounds. Those enjoyed
a protection equivalent to that of national parks today (and much
more effective).

Apparently also the long strips of pine forests on Italy's coastlines
were planted by the Romans. And we are definitely thankful for that,
because there's nothing better than these natural providers of shade
(and pine seeds) when going to the seaside. Unfortunately a lot of
them were ruined in the last 50 years, when environmental destruction
took on an unprecedented scale.

Anyway, while environmental awareness was not necessarirly a trait of
Religio in ancient times, that doesn't mean that it can't be for us
in the present. In fact, I suspect this is, consciously or
unconsciously, an important part of the attraction neopagan cults
hold on people these days.

Optime vale,
Livia

PS: On another theme, I would join Lentulus in recommending you to
use Catalina, and not Cornuta, as your cognomen (or anything but
Cornuta). You see, in Italian "cornuta" means, as in Latin, someone
with horns, but the secondary meaning is "someone who's being
betrayed by their spouse". In all neolatin languages it's quite a
heavy insult, and it's something I would consider ill-omened for a
nickname. I have a sneaking suspiction that this meaning was already
present in the original Latin.

    ATS:  The Oxford Latin Dictionary lists no such meaning for the original classical Latin word cornutus.  Neither does the older Lewis and Short Latin dictionary, which covers a longer time period.  Here we are dealing with classical Latin, not later developments; we have citizens whose cognomen is Cornutus; one is in my classes.  This is also an attested Roman cognomen, borne by a praetor mentioned by Cicero and a grammarian in Gellius.   There is no hint of being cuckolded (that is what we call this...).

    Prospective citizen Catalina/Cornuta has been reassigned to me, and if the gods of e-mail permit, I shall work with her to select a proper Roman name, for her nomen, while used in NR, is not ancient.  

Vale, et valete.  



Salve
> Salve
>
> Livia said :
>
> "For Christians (for all of them, right from the origins) the human
>
> body was just a filthy temporary receptacle for the soul, which
would
>
> be "freed" from it in death."
>
> Livia- one could make the same case for the way the Christians'
regard the earth itself (it is merely a way station on the way to
eternal salvation in heaven) and the resulting lack of stewardship
over nature resulting in devestation of the land.
>
> Would the Roman pagans have taken better care of forests, water,
and so forth? It certainly seems that many pagan cults (especially
the more animist ones) would have taken greater care with the
environment. -Ellen
>

  
      

A. Tullia Scholastica M. Hortensiae quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
 

Maior Varroni spd:
 my apologies Varro, years ago I'd read that the temple of Bona Dea
on the Aventine was Rome's officila abortion clinic. But I cannot
find the quotation anywhere.
 Instead I can tell you that Bona Dea was a goddess of healing and
fertility. Her temple precincts had snakes everywhere and the
priestesses kept a herbarium and dispensed herbal preparations...

Macrobius l.c : quidam Medam putant, quod in aede eius omne genus
herbarum sit ex quibus antistites dant plerumque medicinas

translation (dieux je fais un traduction de Latine, j'espere ce soit
juste. :
 they seem like a sort of Medea, becaue in her temple is every type
of herb from which the priestesses give many medicines.

    ATS:  Shockingly, your translation is quite close, though I am not sure of the reading on Medam, and there is a little matter regarding plerumque.   Normally this name should be Medeam, or Mediam, but the nominative Mede, which would yield Meden or Medam, is also found.  As for plerumque, it is normally an adjective (plerusque, pleraque, plerumque), which means it cannot be taken with medicinas, for it would have to be plerasque.  It can, however, be an adverb, which seems more likely here:  very often, very frequently, but later on, as here, it probably lost the intensification, and simply became often or frequently.  Incidentally, Mede/Medea/Media need not be the actual character by that name, but someone who used/worked with drugs (and poisons...).  

    If you keep up your Latin, you might become better still.  I know someone who should be working on her midterm examination before the sound files disappear from the Yahoo list we have had to use in place of the Academia Thules’ dead server.  

about the other, the differences among Christian culti, I don't
understand a word either:)

    ATS:  Christianity is not a cult; it is a religion...and the plural of cultus is cultús, with a long  final u, being that it is in the fourth declension, not the second.  

 optime vale
 Maior

Vale, et valete.




> Just curious...
> what is the link between the worship of Bona Dea and abortion?
>
> and i don't understant this sentence "the Roman
> Catholic church is a relative newbie - the Eastern Orthodox Church
> was around and running for a couple of centuries before the Roman
> church stuck its toe in the authority-figure waters"
> each church is so ancient as the others... and we can't spaak of
eastern and western churches as 2 separate entities before 1054
> so i don't see what you mean
> in fact you could say the church began to speak latin in Africa in
the IInd century (with tertullianus and others)before she spoke Greek
even in Italy
>
> Varo
>
>
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Titus Annaeus Regulus
>   To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>  
>   Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 7:39 PM
>   Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Regulus & Maior Conversation was [ Re:
Curious non-member with some questions.]
>
>
>
>   Salve Cato,
>
>   I was not offended by her comment, merely in disagreement. I have
not known her long enough to be sure whether you are kidding me or
serious; but if people choose to believe that something is true
regardless of logic demanding that it is not.. well I can hardly
fault her for that if I choose to believe in Immaculate Conception
can I? lol
>
>   It is most definitely an older tradition. Which is probably what
I should have pointed out earlier. The Christian churches
(particularly in the West) were so far separated from original
Christianity, and so influenced by secular powers in the Roman
Empire, that inevitably the RC church absorbed huge amounts of
beliefs and practices from existing Roman ones. Even the Latin title
of the Pope, Pontifex Maximus, is rooted in pagan Roman religion. To
say that Christianity displaced Roman culture seems erroneous to me
and I prefer to see an evolution of two traditions towards one that
was acceptable to the common people who were Romans. The early church
was spread with words and deeds and so the church needed to make
itself as attractive as possible to gain converts. Being seen as
foreign and alien would hardly have helped. In fact, using your
example of the subjugation of women, I recall that there were female
equivalents of all religious positions (priests, deacons, etc) in the
early eastern church and that it was the later, Roman-influenced
church that was male-only, more in line with patriarchal Roman
society. Very interesting point of view on this Cato, I have found it
highly enlightening.
>
>   Vale,
>   Regulus
>
>
>
>
>   From: Gaius Equitius Cato
>   Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 10:27 AM
>   To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>  
>   Subject: [Nova-Roma] Regulus & Maior Conversation was [ Re:
Curious non-member with some questions.]
>
>
>   Cato omnes in foro SPD
>
>   Salvete.
>
>   Remember that the Romans and Greeks thought that exposing a
newborn
>   child to the elements and allowing it to die was perfectly
>   acceptable, even if its only crime was to be born female; just
>   because an activity was in fact practiced does *not* make it
>   acceptable or moral. I would not, if I were Maior, go trumpeting
>   the fact that an activity that many find morally unacceptable was
a
>   big selling point in the worship of the Bona Dea. I am not
>   surprised that some on the Latin List were ... "shocked".
>
>   Regulus, you'll have to get used to Maior. Every single ill that
>   could possibly befall the human race - or has ever already
befallen
>   it - will, in her experience, find its root cause in
Christianity; I
>   think she throws the "Judeo" bit on the front to appear more
>   moderate than she actually is. What she seems to forget is that,
>   like Satanists celebrating a "Black Mass" in mockery of the real
>   one, her railings only give proof to the power inherent in the
thing
>   mocked.
>
>   Like Dan Brown, she also consistently forgets that the Roman
>   Catholic church is a relative newbie - the Eastern Orthodox
Church
>   was around and running for a couple of centuries before the Roman
>   church stuck its toe in the authority-figure waters. True that it
>   was some early Fathers and a couple of bishops of Rome that gave
>   traction to the idea of sex being somehow unclean, but the
general
>   subjugation of women in society is an incredibly far older
practice
>   than that, spanning across the arc of recorded history. This
>   doesn't mean it's acceptable, just that it is a fact of history.
>
>   Valete,
>
>   Cato
>
>
>
>   
>
>
>   
----------------------------------------------------------

>
> in the beginning of the IVth century CE, some people fought for the supremacy in

> each competitor looked for allaince and Constantine did a covenant with christians who

> when he won he might give some gifts to his allies, the possibility to be a legal cult and

>
> so the reason why christainity won is whole political
> and naturraly when the emperors chose to be christians many converted as it happenend

>
> varo
>
>

----- Original Message -----

From: Gaius Equitius Cato

To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 2:46 PM

Subject: [Nova-Roma] why christianity won? wasRegulus & Maior Conversation was [ Re: Curious non-memb

Cato Varroni sal.

Salve!

ummm...very very incorrect, unfortunately.

Constantine did not have his "seat in the east", in AD 306 he was made Caesar in the West
(over Britain, Spain and Gaul) by Galerius; when Maxentius rebelled against Galerius in
307, Constantine was persuaded by Maximian (the ex-emperor and father of Maxentius)
to marry his daughter Fausta and receive the title of Augustus in the West.

In 308, at a council called by Galerius, Maximian was forced out of power again and
Constantine was demoted to Caesar, with Licinius being called Augustus in the West; both
refused to accept these decisions, and by 310 Galerius was using the title Augustus for
both men. Maximian immediately turned on Constantine, but was defeated and was ...
encouraged to commit suicide, which he did.

Maximian's son Maxentius pops up again now, and declares rebellion against Constantine;
he - Maxentius, not Constantine - even goes so far as to allow the Christians to elect their
own new bishop of Rome, Eusebius, in order to curry favor with an already powerful
community. That Maxentius wanted to gain favor with the vibrant Christian community
that *already existed* is evidence that is was already a force in Roman society, not a tiny
minority hidden away, in spite of the viciousness of the persecutions under Diocletian

Eventually, of course, Constantine crushed Maxentius at the Milvian Bridge in 312, entered
Rome triumphant, and was declared Augustus of the West, with Licinius controlling the
East.

Constantine' s stance towards Christianity had always been one of toleration, though his
pagan inclinations were always widely evident (in his coinage, etc.). His purpose in
allowing Christianity to flourish was a very pragmatic one on one hand: he had seen the
terrible disruptions and social upheavals caused by the ultimately fruitless but horrific
bursts of persecution practiced by Diocletian, and instead wanted stability and order. The
Christian community was healthy, organized and very orderly, and Constantine saw the
usefulness in allowing it to continue and grow unimpeded by the kind of senseless
slaughter Diocletian encouraged.

Though he inscribed his soldiers' standards and shields with the monogram of Christ in
response to a vision he had had, and ascribed his victory to the Christian God, he *never*
indicated that he was making war against pagans; he was simply pursuing military and
political goals.

And all of this took place in the West. Not the East.

Vale,

Cato

-- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, "philippe cardon" <philippe.cardon01@ ...> wrote:
>
> in the beginning of the IVth century CE, some people fought for the supremacy in
Roman Empire, after diocletianus left the power
> each competitor looked for allaince and Constantine did a covenant with christians who
were in he east abour 50% of the population (but much less in the west) and constantine
had his seat in the east
> when he won he might give some gifts to his allies, the possibility to be a legal cult and
some advantages
>
> so the reason why christainity won is whole political
> and naturraly when the emperors chose to be christians many converted as it happenend
in muslim times, when rulers were muslims many converted to islam
>
> varo
>
>

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On Tue, 2009-02-10 at 09:02 -0800, Maxima Valeria Messallina wrote:

Salve,

Yes, the potential for losing new interested parties is always
particularly high when things like that happen. Fortunately I've had a
modem since 1985, and ran a BBS from 1986 to 1992, and in these last
twenty four years of being actively online, have witnessed every kind of
bad behaviour that exists.

I will judge the organization on its merits, and not on the behaviour
of a few citizens.

Best,
Rich...

> I mentioned no one by name. I figured they know who they are, but I am
> not criticizing the person, just their behavoir on this list to a
> non-citizen; lest we chase them all away as has been done many a time.
>
> Maxima Valeria Messallina
> Sacerdos Vestalis
>
>
> --- On Tue, 2/10/09, Gaius Equitius Cato <mlcinnyc@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: Gaius Equitius Cato <mlcinnyc@...>
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: A reminder from the praetor
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, February 10, 2009, 7:14 AM
>
> Cato Maximae Valeriae Messalinae sal.
>
> salve.
>
> You wrote (in part):
>
> "This list is open to non-citizens and telling them to go
> somewhere else is not very
> courteous. Perhaps all those suffering from a sudden
> forgetfulness of how to conduct
> themselves on this list should visit the Files and read
> Edictum De Sermone, in particular
> Parts III and IV. Just to refresh your memories."
>
> Perhaps those quoting others should not leave out specific
> pertinent parts. My post said:
>
> "...I agree with Maior *(except for the telling him to go
> somewhere else part)*.
>
> While some of the replies may be snarky, cutting, idiotic or
> just plain mean, we are free
> citizens of a free Respublica. I'm sure Rich is old enough and
> intelligent enough to
> separate the wheat from the chaff." (*denotes my emphasis)
>
> I stand firmly behind my right as a free citizen in a free
> Respublica to say whatever I want
> to say, and firmly behind any other citizen's right to
> disagree with whatever I say. Valeria
> Messalina, if you're going to criticize me based on what I
> say, please be more careful to
> actually read what I say first and present it in its full
> context.
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> Here's what Wikipedia says:
> The term dates from the Roman empire, since legionaries
> returning from the war were given horns as a triumph or prize. So,

> mockery of the husband, victorious in the battlefield, but defeated

> The
> gesture of the horned hand can be used to insult the cuckold.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Petronius Dexter" <jfarnoud94@...> wrote:
>
> C. Petronius C. Catoni s.p.d.,
>
> > Here's what Wikipedia says:
> > The term dates from the Roman empire, since legionaries
> > returning from the war were given horns as a triumph or prize. So,
> the use of the term is a
> > mockery of the husband, victorious in the battlefield, but defeated
> in his own bed.
>
> In which book Wikipedia found that?
>
> It is sure that victorious Roman horsemen in the war against the
> Samnits had as a reward golden collars and "cornicula" id est a crest
> on the top of the helmet. (That is written by Livy in his book 10,
> chapter 44.) The consul Papirius gave collars and helmet crests as a
> reward to his horsemen, but this "cornicula" were not horns but
> crests.
>
> And the victorious horsemen of Papirius were not more cuckold than
> the others victorious soldiers which had as reward other prizes. This
> unic example can not be used as a triumphal custom.
>
> > The
> > gesture of the horned hand can be used to insult the cuckold.
>
> What were this gesture in Latin? The famous "ciconia"? (In this case,
> this gesture was to simulate the neck of a stork). But I am not sure
> it was against the cuckolds.
>
> Sources, please.
>
> Optime uale.
>
> C. Petronius Dexter
>

>
> Vale!
> T. Annaeus Regulus
>
>
>
>
> Then, after the last pagan priest had been burned to death

> territories, Christians could finally dedicate themselves

> their favourite pastime since the beginning: killing other
> Christians, who happened to be "heretics".
>
> Optime valete,
> Livia
>

>> Here's what Wikipedia says:
>> The term dates from the Roman empire, since legionaries
>> returning from the war were given horns as a triumph or prize. So,

>> mockery of the husband, victorious in the battlefield, but defeated