--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, David Kling <tau.athanasios@...> wrote:
>
> Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus Gaio Equitio Catoni salutem dicit
>
> So any sodalitas that deals with Christianity has to subscribe to your
> standards of what is Christian? I wasn't aware that the Ecumenical Councils
> were convened during the Greco-Roman period.
>
> Knowledge of the Greco-Roman period... isn't that what Nova Roma is about?
> Or is it about promoting your vision of Christianity?
>
> Vale;
>
> Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus

On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 9:30 AM, Gaius Equitius Cato <mlcinnyc@...> wrote:

Cato omnibus SPD

Salvete.

Four (Nicaea, Constantinople, Ephesus, and Chalcedon) of the Seven were held before AD
476, the traditional "fall" of the Western Roman Empire, and one (Nicaea - perhaps the
most important vis-a-vis this conversation) within the scope of time that this Respublica
calls its own.

So yes, I would consider them as being within the "Roman" period.

If one considers the historical fact of the Eastern Empire considering itself absolutely
Roman as well, they *all* fall under the "Roman" period.

Vale,

Cato

> David Kling <tau.athanasios@...> wrote:
>
> I said no such thing, and I resent your implication.

> Christian sodalitas should not be ONLY about your version of Christianity
> but should be open to anyone interested in the history of Christianity in
> the Greco-Roman period.

> If you are looking for a reason to leave Nova Roma then just go, but don't
> use me as your scapegoat. Sounds to me that you are simply too sensitive.

On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 10:04 AM, Gaius Equitius Cato <mlcinnyc@...> wrote:

Cato K. Fabio Buteoni Modianus sal.

Salve!

> David Kling <tau.athanasios@...> wrote:
>

> I said no such thing, and I resent your implication.

I didn't imply, I said it directly. You essentially said that if I expected a "Christian"
sodalitas to respect the self-defining tenets laid down by orthodox Christianity, somehow
Nova Roma isn't the place for me.

I stated that any
> Christian sodalitas should not be ONLY about your version of Christianity
> but should be open to anyone interested in the history of Christianity in
> the Greco-Roman period.

I did *not* ever say - or imply - that it shouldn't be open to everyone. I voiced concerns
about the way that orthodox Christianity is going to be treated there. I explained what *I*
was concerned with, not what anyone else should or should not want from that group.

> If you are looking for a reason to leave Nova Roma then just go, but don't
> use me as your scapegoat. Sounds to me that you are simply too sensitive.

LOL. I'm not leaving. I removed myself from that group specifically because I saw only
another source of personal aggravation, which I do not need. Do whatever you want in
there.

But this discussion does not belong here, and I am not going to continue to force the
entire citizenry to undergo yet another series of useless emails. We can continue on the
NR Christians List, if you'd like :)

Vale bene!

Cato

On Wed, 2009-02-18 at 16:07 -0500, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@... wrote:

Perhaps when I own my own aircraft, I can visit all of the provinces
as social director. :-)

Rich...


> Rich - I am sorry that you live so far away from America
> Austrorientalis. Our province has had two major and a number of local
> events plus we participated in a major museum-reenactment event in
> Mobile in 2006. Perhaps you could get involved with Nova Roma and
> help some of our members learn a little more about the joys of social
> interaction.
>
> Valete.

On Wed, 2009-02-18 at 20:50 -0500, Annia Minucia Marcella wrote:

Most of the SCA people that I know take a name, and many have even
thought of a back-history for their personas, but at the end of the day,
they just have the name, and they go to events in garb, and drink.

:-)

Rich...


> Salve,
>
> I think if you make it a role when using your roman name, that would
> be true. I just consider this my pseudonym. In heathenism, I also have
> a name, Bathilda, and it's not a role either. My friend's son is half
> chinese, so he has an american name and a chinese name. It's not just
> an RP thing to have another name.
>
>
> Vale
> - Annia Minucia Marcella
>
> http://minucia.ciarin.com
>
>
> Gnaeus Equitius Marinus wrote:
> > Salve Marcella,
> >
> > Annia Minucia Marcella <annia@...> writes:
> >
> > > In the SCA, going on what was explained to me by a friend who is
> > in it,
> > > is that you take on a persona. In NR the only persona I have is
> > the one
> > > I am. That's a big difference, imo.
> >
> > An awful lot of people in the SCA do take on personae, but it's not
> > a
> > requirement of membership. When I was an associate member (in order
> > to fence in their rapier tournaments) I just went by my own name.
> > So
> > at least in terms of my personal experience, Nova Roma's
> > requirement
> > to adopt a name that my parents didn't give me imposes more of a
> > "role
> > playing" aspect than anything the SCA ever required of me.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > CN-EQVIT-MARINVS
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

On Thu, 2009-02-19 at 09:20 -0500, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@... wrote:

When I initially considered joining the SCA they had a particular
range of years in which your character had to have existed. That was
probably more than twenty years ago. I was surprised to learn two
weekends ago that no such limitations exist, and that they now have many
Roman personas.

Rich...


> Domina,
>
> If you have never been in the SCA, then you should go to some of the
> Roman themed events. You might discover that the SCA Romans possess
> just as much Romanitas as any of our Novaromans. I am surprised
> though that you would take the opinion of another when I know how much
> you embrace discovering new things on your own.
>
> Aureliane
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Annia Minucia Marcella <annia@...>
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 5:39 pm
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Curious non-member with some questions.
>
>
>
> Salve,
>
> Except in Nova Roma, roman ideals and values are apart of our lives
> and for many of us the religion is apart of our belief too, and none
> of us have to dress up in a particularly historical fashion for any
> events.
>
> In the SCA, going on what was explained to me by a friend who is in
> it, is that you take on a persona. In NR the only persona I have is
> the one I am. That's a big difference, imo.
> Vale
> - Annia Minucia Marcella
>
> http://minucia.ciarin.com
>
>
> PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@... wrote:
> > Aurelianus Marcella et Rich sal.
> >
> > The SCA was originally made up of fantasy, history, and speculative
> > thought back in the 60s. However, it has evolved to the point that
> > many of the leading medieval and Renaissance scholars of the day
> > started with the SCA. I would hardly call it exclusively a
> > role-playing organization anymore than I would call Nova Roma a
> > role-playing organization. The principal difference that I see
> > between the SCA and NR is that the SCA was founded before the
> > Internet and had to become an organization in which travelling to
> > participate was a requirement. NR is a mostly internet organization
> > in which the majority of those who travel to participate started in
> > groups like the SCA (like me and many members of my province) or
> > military re-enactment units (like Legio V). Most of the membership
> > of Nova Roma could use a little more of the enthusiasm and social
> > interaction of the SCA.
> >
> > Rich - I am sorry that you live so far away from America
> > Austrorientalis. Our province has had two major and a number of
> > local events plus we participated in a major museum-reenactment
> > event in Mobile in 2006. Perhaps you could get involved with Nova
> > Roma and help some of our members learn a little more about the joys
> > of social interaction.
> >
> > Valete.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Annia Minucia Marcella <annia@...>
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 11:44 pm
> > Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Curious non-member with some questions.
> >
> >
> > Salve,
> >
> > Except you referenced the SCA(a lot) which is most definitely a
> > role-playing organization.
> >
> >
> > I'll thank you not to compare us to renfaire characters like Lord
> > Seamus of the Kingdom of Caid.
> > Vale
> > - Annia Minucia Marcella
> >
> > http://minucia.ciarin.com
> >
> >
> > Rich wrote:
> > > On Sun, 2009-02-08 at 05:04 +0000, t.ovidius_aquila wrote:
> > >
> > > You're the second person to assign the words "role-play" or "RPG"
> > > to
> > > me, when I never used them.
> > >
> > > I'll thank you to not put words in my mouth. :-)
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Rich...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ____________________________________________________________________
> > A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
> > steps!
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!
>

>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Caelius Ahenobarbus
> <cn.caelius@> wrote:
> >
> > Maybe that should change. Maybe some things must require travel.
> For an example, the Senate could be required to meet yearly (or every
> other year; regularly), in-person. Or every magistrate should be
> required to attend at least one regional conventus every year. Nova
> Roma could help offset some of the costs, if possible.
> >
>
>
>
> Labeo Ahenobarbo omnibusque sal.
>
> If this requirement were to be instituted, civis with jobs with
> inflexible schedules and inflexible vacation time could be prohibited
> from ever serving the res publica in a senatorial or magisterial
> capacity.
>
> Valete
>

>
> Cn. Caelius Ahenobarbus K. Fabio. Buteoni Modiano omnibusque s.p.d.
>
>
> >Then that asks a question is this sodalitas designed for practicing
> Christians?...
> >IF it is to be an "ecclesia" for modern believing Christians then I'm
> not sure
> >Nova Roma is the right avenue for that -- join a church.
>
> Indeed. Nova Roma is a pagan organization. Creating a sodality

> There are limits to what could be considered logical

>
> Optime vale, et valete.
>
> --
> Gnaeus Caelius Ahenobarbus
> Lictor Curiatus, Accensus Consulum, et Scriba Aedilis Curulis
> http://becomingnewthroughtheold.blogspot.com
>

>
> Cn. Caelius Ahenobarbus Q. Valerio Poplicolae s.p.d.
>
>
> >Nova Roma is not a religious group. They're a non-profit religious
> >organization.
> I guess I don't see too much of a distinction here. Could you

>
> Optime vale!
>
> --
> Gnaeus Caelius Ahenobarbus
> Lictor Curiatus, Accensus Consulum, et Scriba Aedilis Curulis
> http://becomingnewthroughtheold.blogspot.com
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Q. Valerius Poplicola <catullus.poeta@...>
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 10:35:17 AM
> Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] Sodalitas Christianorum
>
>
> Your analogy fails because the pagans go to church. It
> would be much closer to the situation where a group of
> reconstructionist Christians started an organization about their
> existence in ancient Rome, and thereupon pagans joined because, after
> all, Christians were never alone while Rome stood tall...
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, Gnaeus Caelius Ahenobarbus
> <cn.caelius@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > Cn. Caelius Ahenobarbus K. Fabio. Buteoni Modiano omnibusque s.p.d.
> >
> >
> > >Then that asks a question is this sodalitas designed for practicing
> > Christians?. ..
> > >IF it is to be an "ecclesia" for modern believing Christians then I'm
> > not sure
> > >Nova Roma is the right avenue for that -- join a church.
> >
> > Indeed. Nova Roma is a pagan organization. Creating a sodality
> for Christians "to practice Christianity in a Greco-Roman context"
> within a pagan organization would be similar to me going to a
> Christian church and creating an internal group to worship a Roman
> god. The Christians would be amazed that I would even ask such a
> thing. Then, there may be laughter on their part. Then they would very
> clearly---and with many good reasons---say, "no".
> > There are limits to what could be considered logical
> inclusiveness. With this idea, we are now close to those limits.
> >
> > Optime vale, et valete.
> >
> > --
> > Gnaeus Caelius Ahenobarbus
> > Lictor Curiatus, Accensus Consulum, et Scriba Aedilis Curulis
> > http://becomingnewt hroughtheold. blogspot. com
> >
>

----- Original Message -----

From: Q. Valerius Poplicola

To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:32 PM

Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] Sodalitas Christianorum

Q. Valerius Poplicola Flamen Falacer Cn. Caelio Ahenobarbo spd.

Here's where it gets tricky. The Religio Romana needed more than just
a "state" - the Pax made by Romulus entailed land. The Gods need real
land, not a virtual state.

Anyway, legally speaking, there's a difference between a religion and
a non-profit organization. You'll have to petition an American lawyer
for the subtle nuances, or perhaps check wikipedia.

Oh, and to worship Roman gods, you don't need a state. The Pax of
Romulus was a very specific type of pact made by Romulus on behalf of
his new state.

cura ut ualeas.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, Gnaeus Caelius Ahenobarbus
<cn.caelius@ ...> wrote:
>
> Cn. Caelius Ahenobarbus Q. Valerio Poplicolae s.p.d.
>
>
> >Nova Roma is not a religious group. They're a non-profit religious
> >organization.
> I guess I don't see too much of a distinction here. Could you
please provide more details? How is a religious organization "not a
religious group"? I'm going off the fact that Nova Roma was formed by
those who wished to worship the Roman gods but realized that the
Religio Romana required the state to function. So, they created "the
state".
>
> Optime vale!
>
> --
> Gnaeus Caelius Ahenobarbus
> Lictor Curiatus, Accensus Consulum, et Scriba Aedilis Curulis
> http://becomingnewt hroughtheold. blogspot. com
>
>
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: Q. Valerius Poplicola <catullus.poeta@ ...>
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 10:35:17 AM
> Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] Sodalitas Christianorum
>
>
> Your analogy fails because the pagans go to church. It
> would be much closer to the situation where a group of
> reconstructionist Christians started an organization about their
> existence in ancient Rome, and thereupon pagans joined because, after
> all, Christians were never alone while Rome stood tall...
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, Gnaeus Caelius Ahenobarbus
> <cn.caelius@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > Cn. Caelius Ahenobarbus K. Fabio. Buteoni Modiano omnibusque s.p.d.
> >
> >
> > >Then that asks a question is this sodalitas designed for practicing
> > Christians?. ..
> > >IF it is to be an "ecclesia" for modern believing Christians then I'm
> > not sure
> > >Nova Roma is the right avenue for that -- join a church.
> >
> > Indeed. Nova Roma is a pagan organization. Creating a sodality
> for Christians "to practice Christianity in a Greco-Roman context"
> within a pagan organization would be similar to me going to a
> Christian church and creating an internal group to worship a Roman
> god. The Christians would be amazed that I would even ask such a
> thing. Then, there may be laughter on their part. Then they would very
> clearly---and with many good reasons---say, "no".
> > There are limits to what could be considered logical
> inclusiveness. With this idea, we are now close to those limits.
> >
> > Optime vale, et valete.
> >
> > --
> > Gnaeus Caelius Ahenobarbus
> > Lictor Curiatus, Accensus Consulum, et Scriba Aedilis Curulis
> > http://becomingnewt hroughtheold. blogspot. com
> >
>

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a été contrôlé par l'anti-virus mail.
Aucun virus connu à ce jour par nos services n'a été détecté.

>
> Optime vale.
>
> --
> Gnaeus Caelius Ahenobarbus
> Lictor Curiatus, Accensus Consulum, et Scriba Aedilis Curulis
> http://becomingnewthroughtheold.blogspot.com
>

>
> Salvete omnes;
>
> I just came across this, was not aware that these had been

>
> Curse Tablets of Roman Britain
> http://curses.csad.ox.ac.uk/index.shtml
>
> --
> Best regards,
> M. Cocceius Firmus
>

Vale
- Annia Minucia Marcella

http://minucia.ciarin.com

Domina,

If you have never been in the SCA, then you should go to some of the Roman themed events.  You might discover that the SCA Romans possess just as much Romanitas as any of our Novaromans.  I am surprised though that you would take the opinion of another when I know how much you embrace discovering new things on your own.

Aureliane


-----Original Message-----
From: Annia Minucia Marcella <annia@ciarin. com>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 5:39 pm
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Curious non-member with some questions.

Salve,

Except in Nova Roma, roman ideals and values are apart of our lives and for many of us the religion is apart of our belief too, and none of us have to dress up in a particularly historical fashion for any events.

In the SCA, going on what was explained to me by a friend who is in it, is that you take on a persona. In NR the only persona I have is the one I am. That's a big difference, imo.

Vale
- Annia Minucia Marcella

http://minucia. ciarin.com

PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@ aol.com wrote:

Aurelianus Marcella et Rich sal.

The SCA was originally made up of fantasy, history, and speculative thought back in the 60s.  However, it has evolved to the point that many of the leading medieval and Renaissance scholars of the day started with the SCA.  I would hardly call it exclusively a role-playing organization anymore than I would call Nova Roma a role-playing organization.  The principal difference that I see between the SCA and NR is that the SCA was founded before the Internet and had to become an organization in which travelling to participate was a requirement.  NR is a mostly internet organization in which the majority of those who travel to participate started in groups like the SCA (like me and many members of my province) or military re-enactment units (like Legio V).  Most of the membership of Nova Roma could use a little more of the enthusiasm and social interaction of the SCA.

Rich - I am sorry that you live so far away from America Austrorientalis.  Our province has had two major and a number of local events plus we participated in a major museum-reenactment event in Mobile in 2006.  Perhaps you could get involved with Nova Roma and help some of our members learn a little more about the joys of social interaction.

Valete.


-----Original Message-----
From: Annia Minucia Marcella <annia@ciarin. com>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 11:44 pm
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Curious non-member with some questions.

Salve,

Except you referenced the SCA(a lot) which is most definitely a role-playing organization.


I'll thank you not to compare us to renfaire characters like Lord Seamus of the Kingdom of Caid.

Vale
- Annia Minucia Marcella

http://minucia. ciarin.com

Rich wrote:

On Sun, 2009-02-08 at 05:04 +0000, t.ovidius_aquila wrote:

You're the second person to assign the words "role-play" or "RPG" to
me, when I never used them.

I'll thank you to not put words in my mouth. :-)

Best,
Rich...

---

A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!

---

A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!

Vale
- Annia Minucia Marcella

http://minucia.ciarin.com

Q. Valerius Poplicola Flamen Falacer Cn. Caelio Ahenobarbo spd.

Here's where it gets tricky. The Religio Romana needed more than just
a "state" - the Pax made by Romulus entailed land. The Gods need real
land, not a virtual state.

Anyway, legally speaking, there's a difference between a religion and
a non-profit organization. You'll have to petition an American lawyer
for the subtle nuances, or perhaps check wikipedia.

Oh, and to worship Roman gods, you don't need a state. The Pax of
Romulus was a very specific type of pact made by Romulus on behalf of
his new state.

cura ut ualeas.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, Gnaeus Caelius Ahenobarbus
<cn.caelius@ ...> wrote:
>
> Cn. Caelius Ahenobarbus Q. Valerio Poplicolae s.p.d.
>
>
> >Nova Roma is not a religious group. They're a non-profit religious
> >organization.
> I guess I don't see too much of a distinction here. Could you
please provide more details? How is a religious organization "not a
religious group"? I'm going off the fact that Nova Roma was formed by
those who wished to worship the Roman gods but realized that the
Religio Romana required the state to function. So, they created "the
state".
>
> Optime vale!
>
> --
> Gnaeus Caelius Ahenobarbus
> Lictor Curiatus, Accensus Consulum, et Scriba Aedilis Curulis
> http://becomingnewt hroughtheold. blogspot. com
>
>
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: Q. Valerius Poplicola <catullus.poeta@ ...>
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 10:35:17 AM
> Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] Sodalitas Christianorum
>
>
> Your analogy fails because the pagans go to church. It
> would be much closer to the situation where a group of
> reconstructionist Christians started an organization about their
> existence in ancient Rome, and thereupon pagans joined because, after
> all, Christians were never alone while Rome stood tall...
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, Gnaeus Caelius Ahenobarbus
> <cn.caelius@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > Cn. Caelius Ahenobarbus K. Fabio. Buteoni Modiano omnibusque s.p.d.
> >
> >
> > >Then that asks a question is this sodalitas designed for practicing
> > Christians?. ..
> > >IF it is to be an "ecclesia" for modern believing Christians then I'm
> > not sure
> > >Nova Roma is the right avenue for that -- join a church.
> >
> > Indeed. Nova Roma is a pagan organization. Creating a sodality
> for Christians "to practice Christianity in a Greco-Roman context"
> within a pagan organization would be similar to me going to a
> Christian church and creating an internal group to worship a Roman
> god. The Christians would be amazed that I would even ask such a
> thing. Then, there may be laughter on their part. Then they would very
> clearly---and with many good reasons---say, "no".
> > There are limits to what could be considered logical
> inclusiveness. With this idea, we are now close to those limits.
> >
> > Optime vale, et valete.
> >
> > --
> > Gnaeus Caelius Ahenobarbus
> > Lictor Curiatus, Accensus Consulum, et Scriba Aedilis Curulis
> > http://becomingnewt hroughtheold. blogspot. com
> >
>

> I was curious if anyone sells the flag of Nova Roma?

A. Tullia Scholastica Richardo C. Iunio Neroni Cn. Caelio Ahenobarbo Flavio Galerio Aureliano omnibus bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
 

On Wed, 2009-02-18 at 16:07 -0500, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@... <mailto:PADRUIGTHEUNCLE%40aol.com>  wrote:

Perhaps when I own my own aircraft, I can visit all of the provinces
as social director.   :-)

    ATS:  Would you be willing to take some of the rest of us along?  There is this large body of salt water between the Americas and Europe, and another one between the distant realms of California and, say, Australia, where I have some friends and some students...not to mention a lot of land between Phoenix, California, etc., and me.   Realistically, it is quite impossible for us to travel such distances, even once a year, unless we DO have our own aircraft (trains, ocean liners...)...not that I trust them terribly well, given that one crashed a few miles from my home just a week ago.  

    My Mediatlantica Provincia is fairly active, too.

Valete.

Rich...

> Rich - I am sorry that you live so far away from America
> Austrorientalis.  Our province has had two major and a number of local
> events plus we participated in a major museum-reenactment event in
> Mobile in 2006.  Perhaps you could get involved with Nova Roma and
> help some of our members learn a little more about the joys of social
> interaction.
>
> Valete.

  
    

> Anyway, legally speaking, there's a difference between a religion

> a non-profit organization. You'll have to petition an American

> for the subtle nuances, or perhaps check wikipedia.
>
> Oh, and to worship Roman gods, you don't need a state. The Pax of
> Romulus was a very specific type of pact made by Romulus on

> his new state.
>
> cura ut ualeas.
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Caelius Ahenobarbus
> <cn.caelius@> wrote:
> >
> > Cn. Caelius Ahenobarbus Q. Valerio Poplicolae s.p.d.
> >
> >
> > >Nova Roma is not a religious group. They're a non-profit

> > >organization.
> > I guess I don't see too much of a distinction here. Could you
> please provide more details? How is a religious organization "not

> religious group"? I'm going off the fact that Nova Roma was

> those who wished to worship the Roman gods but realized that the
> Religio Romana required the state to function. So, they

> state".
> >
> > Optime vale!
> >
> > --
> > Gnaeus Caelius Ahenobarbus
> > Lictor Curiatus, Accensus Consulum, et Scriba Aedilis Curulis
> > http://becomingnewthroughtheold.blogspot.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Q. Valerius Poplicola <catullus.poeta@>
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 10:35:17 AM
> > Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] Sodalitas Christianorum
> >
> >
> > Your analogy fails because the pagans go to church. It
> > would be much closer to the situation where a group of
> > reconstructionist Christians started an organization about their
> > existence in ancient Rome, and thereupon pagans joined because,

> > all, Christians were never alone while Rome stood tall...
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, Gnaeus Caelius Ahenobarbus
> > <cn.caelius@ ...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Cn. Caelius Ahenobarbus K. Fabio. Buteoni Modiano omnibusque

> > >
> > >
> > > >Then that asks a question is this sodalitas designed for

> > > Christians?. ..
> > > >IF it is to be an "ecclesia" for modern believing Christians

> > > not sure
> > > >Nova Roma is the right avenue for that -- join a church.
> > >
> > > Indeed. Nova Roma is a pagan organization. Creating a sodality
> > for Christians "to practice Christianity in a Greco-Roman

> > within a pagan organization would be similar to me going to a
> > Christian church and creating an internal group to worship a

> > god. The Christians would be amazed that I would even ask such a
> > thing. Then, there may be laughter on their part. Then they

> > clearly---and with many good reasons---say, "no".
> > > There are limits to what could be considered logical
> > inclusiveness. With this idea, we are now close to those limits.
> > >
> > > Optime vale, et valete.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Gnaeus Caelius Ahenobarbus
> > > Lictor Curiatus, Accensus Consulum, et Scriba Aedilis Curulis
> > > http://becomingnewt hroughtheold. blogspot. com
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------

> Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a été contrôlé par l'anti-

> Aucun virus connu à ce jour par nos services n'a été détecté.
>

On Thu, 2009-02-19 at 21:49 -0500, A. Tullia Scholastica wrote:

I would be willing to take as many as I could fit.

Pitch in for gas and I'm all about it.

Just got back from Salon. Actual social interaction! :-)

Best,
Rich...


> A. Tullia Scholastica Richardo C. Iunio Neroni Cn. Caelio
> Ahenobarbo Flavio Galerio Aureliano omnibus bonae voluntatis
> S.P.D.
>
>
> On Wed, 2009-02-18 at 16:07 -0500, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...
> <mailto:PADRUIGTHEUNCLE%40aol.com> wrote:
>
> Perhaps when I own my own aircraft, I can visit all of the
> provinces
> as social director. :-)
>
> ATS: Would you be willing to take some of the rest of us
> along? There is this large body of salt water between the
> Americas and Europe, and another one between the distant
> realms of California and, say, Australia, where I have some
> friends and some students...not to mention a lot of land
> between Phoenix, California, etc., and me. Realistically, it
> is quite impossible for us to travel such distances, even once
> a year, unless we DO have our own aircraft (trains, ocean
> liners...)...not that I trust them terribly well, given that
> one crashed a few miles from my home just a week ago.
>
> My Mediatlantica Provincia is fairly active, too.
>
> Valete.
>
> Rich...
>
> > Rich - I am sorry that you live so far away from America
> > Austrorientalis. Our province has had two major and a
> number of local
> > events plus we participated in a major museum-reenactment
> event in
> > Mobile in 2006. Perhaps you could get involved with Nova
> Roma and
> > help some of our members learn a little more about the joys
> of social
> > interaction.
> >
> > Valete.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I will be out of the office starting 20-02-2009 and will not return until 02-03-2009.

I will respond to your message when I return.

>
> > A. Tullia Scholastica Richardo C. Iunio Neroni Cn. Caelio

> > Galerio Aureliano omnibus bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 2009-02-18 at 16:07 -0500, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...
> > <mailto:PADRUIGTHEUNCLE%40aol.com> wrote:
> >
> > Perhaps when I own my own aircraft, I can visit all of the

> > as social director. :-)
> >
> > ATS: Would you be willing to take some of the rest of us

> > this large body of salt water between the Americas and Europe,

> > between the distant realms of California and, say, Australia,

> > some friends and some students...not to mention a lot of land

> > California, etc., and me. Realistically, it is quite impossible

> > travel such distances, even once a year, unless we DO have our

> > (trains, ocean liners...)...not that I trust them terribly well,

> > one crashed a few miles from my home just a week ago.
> >
> > My Mediatlantica Provincia is fairly active, too.
> >
> > Valete.
> >
> > Rich...
> >
> >> > Rich - I am sorry that you live so far away from America
> >> > Austrorientalis. Our province has had two major and a number

> >> > events plus we participated in a major museum-reenactment

> >> > Mobile in 2006. Perhaps you could get involved with Nova Roma

> >> > help some of our members learn a little more about the joys of

> >> > interaction.
> >> >
> >> > Valete.
> >
> >
> >
>

A. Tullia Scholastica C. Iunio Neroni quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
 

Salve,
So for the rest of eternity(we are citizens of the Eternal City) we
are to confine ourselves to the internet?

    ATS:  That is not what I said.  


It is not so unrealistic to
travel across that large body of salt water. The current public
convention of Nova Romans occur every year in Europe yet those here
in America manage to go.

    ATS:  I happen to be one of the two Americans who attended the Conventus V in Carlisle, England.  This, however, is not something that is feasible for us on an annual basis; it is a once-in-a-lifetime event, unless one happens to be rolling in dough.  The airfare alone was well over $1000, maybe half again as much, and if you have that to throw around, well and good, but a lot of us do not.  


I understand that flying to ANYWHERE the
senate meetings would hypotheticaly be a bit of a cost,

    ATS:  More than a bit, considering that some are in South America, some are in Europe, some are in Western Canada, some are in Eastern Canada, some are in sundry parts of the US, widely scattered.  To take one example, Cato and I are over 400 miles apart in the same state.  I am over 500 miles in a different direction from Marinus and TGP.  Nine-hour drives do not please me, and that is the minimum to get to that area...if the car and I could survive without stopping.  Driving to LA or SF is not an option from almost the opposite end of the country, and I would doubt that the residents of Hawaii could drive very far before getting wet.  Really wet. Even the Californians might object.  

    Please note that we have a large reenactment event in my province every year, and I attend it regularly.  Several of us get to see each other at this event, and several come long distances to attend...but zipping to Europe or Australia or the far reaches of the Americas is another matter.  I suspect that the denizens of those places feel much the same about visiting the US...some of them seem quite terrified at the prospect.  

    There is also the little matter that some cannot drive...don’t have cars...and that not everyone is 21 and eager for long journeys, or has the time to spend on them.  

and perhaps
discussions could open for some sort of help in that area?
As for the distances between land in America, we must remember that
the ancient were able to cross most of the Empire on foot why can't
we in cars?

   

 
Di vos incolumes custodiant,
GAIVS INIVS NERO

Vale, et valete.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com> , "A. Tullia Scholastica"
<fororom@...> wrote:
>
> >  A. Tullia Scholastica Richardo C. Iunio Neroni Cn. Caelio
Ahenobarbo Flavio
> > Galerio Aureliano omnibus bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
> >  
> >
> > On Wed, 2009-02-18 at 16:07 -0500, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...
> > <mailto:PADRUIGTHEUNCLE%40aol.com>  wrote:
> >
> > Perhaps when I own my own aircraft, I can visit all of the
provinces
> > as social director.   :-)
> >
> >     ATS:  Would you be willing to take some of the rest of us
along?  There is
> > this large body of salt water between the Americas and Europe,
and another one
> > between the distant realms of California and, say, Australia,
where I have
> > some friends and some students...not to mention a lot of land
between Phoenix,
> > California, etc., and me.   Realistically, it is quite impossible
for us to
> > travel such distances, even once a year, unless we DO have our
own aircraft
> > (trains, ocean liners...)...not that I trust them terribly well,
given that
> > one crashed a few miles from my home just a week ago.
> >
> >     My Mediatlantica Provincia is fairly active, too.
> >
> > Valete.
> >
> > Rich...
> >
> >> > Rich - I am sorry that you live so far away from America
> >> > Austrorientalis.  Our province has had two major and a number
of local
> >> > events plus we participated in a major museum-reenactment
event in
> >> > Mobile in 2006.  Perhaps you could get involved with Nova Roma
and
> >> > help some of our members learn a little more about the joys of
social
> >> > interaction.
> >> >
> >> > Valete.
> >
> >   
> >
>

  
    

 Scholastica Laenati S.P.D.

Laenas Maior

>>Telling women to 'shut up' or 'piss off' or other fatuous insults on
the Main List is the dying cry of white male privilege. I always have
a good laugh over it;-)<<

Hahahahahahahah!!!  Too funny! Trust me it has nothing to do with sex
or race.

    ATS:  Those of us who are sensible saw that right away.  

Vale.  

  
    

----- Original Message -----

From: Titus Annaeus Regulus

To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 1:55 AM

Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] Sodalitas Christianorum

Regulus Ahenobarbo s.p.d.

 

I guess the 'seriousness' of Nova Roma as a state depends on whether or not it is trying to represent all the citizens it has now today, or emulate those of the past. While the latter will surely give a much more historically accurate and homogeneous group, it severely curtails the potential of NR to ever become more than 'a religious organization' (and a small one at that). As 'a religious group' it makes no sense to allow other religions to have a place in NR; as a state (or even a growing organization) with many of other faiths who contribute to public life and the functioning of NR it makes perfect sense.

 

Nova Roma looks to the past with reverence of course, but we cannot allow this nostalgia cloud our eyes in the face of modern practicalities. Romans were famous for adapting to new situations and technologies. Right now, I would estimate that the relatively small majority of active citizens probably are pagan. If Nova Roma were to grow large enough to have temples, own towns, forts, a functioning Senate House, etc. the chances of doing so without taking in a massive influx of monotheists is rather slim. I know that you are a supporter of NR growing and becoming a bigger and better organization, but to do that there must be an element of pragmatism.

 

Am I interested in having a church group here in NR? Not really. I have a billion people in my church group already, I don't bring that here. (I would be more interested in perhaps the historical aspect and Christianity' s evolution under Judaic and Roman influences personally) But if other citizens do, why not let them? As long as they continue to accept the RR's unique place as the state religion, the religion that was born and grew with the Republica all Nova Romans revere as the greatest civilization of all time, why can't they be accepted and fully integrated in NR? I think that having all modern religions and schools of thought integrated into Ancient Roman society would be quite a boon and highly faithful to the Ancient Roman way. The more we can illustrate that Roman virtues and values still have meaning into today's world then the better job we are doing as Nova Romans in my opinion. If religion is important for some citizens who make a valuable contribution to NR, then is it not worth it to give them that freedom?

 

Your points are valid, if Nova Roma is a pagan organization it should be exclusively pagan, having another organized religious group within NR is completely counter-intuitive. If Nova Roma has other objectives, then I would see other religious groups in NR as neutral to the mission of the RR, but beneficial to NR as a whole. I leave it up to others as to what is the 'right' decision. It is a choice. Clearly the more you make Nova Roma a pagan organization the more you limit your potential membership and thus the less you can do in terms of more secular objectives. But the increase in homogeneity makes religious strife more unlikely. This single decision will surely not make or break Nova Roma, but as recognizable patterns of behaviour emerge over time, I'm sure Nova Roma will become known as more or less pagan and more or less Republican. It's something to think about, the things we offer and the decisions we make say a lot about us to potential citizens. For me at least, it is the ability to live the Roman virtues in my modern life that attracts me most to Nova Roma. Some of the cives here are so knowledgeable I find myself constantly improving in my understanding of the Ancient Roman psyche.

 

As long as we have enough people to make a sodalitas active, and it is not treasonous, I personally fully support any and all groups. We allow all creeds into NR; we tout our freedom of speech; to me the idea of allowing or disallowing groups based on the topic of the group's conversation flies directly in the face of both of these in my view.

 

Vale

From: Gnaeus Caelius Ahenobarbus

Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 12:49 PM

To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com

Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] Sodalitas Christianorum

Cn. Caelius Ahenobarbus K. Fabio. Buteoni Modiano omnibusque s.p.d.

>Then that asks a question is this sodalitas designed for practicing Christians?. ..
>IF it is to be an "ecclesia" for modern believing Christians then I'm not sure
>Nova Roma is the right avenue for that -- join a church.

    Indeed. Nova Roma is a pagan organization. Creating a sodality for Christians "to practice Christianity in a Greco-Roman context" within a pagan organization would be similar to me going to a Christian church and creating an internal group to worship a Roman god. The Christians would be amazed that I would even ask such a thing. Then, there may be laughter on their part. Then they would very clearly---and with many good reasons---say, "no".
    There are limits to what could be considered logical inclusiveness. With this idea, we are now close to those limits.

Optime vale, et valete.

--
Gnaeus Caelius Ahenobarbus
Lictor Curiatus, Accensus Consulum, et Scriba Aedilis Curulis
http://becomingnewt hroughtheold. blogspot. com

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
> Avete omnes,
>
>
> I am interested in the formation of a Sodalitas Christianorum, a club
> for Christians and those interested in the study of Christianity
> (especially during the Roman period). If anyone else is interested in
> helping with this project please contact me via the Nova Roma site or
> email my yahoo. Gratias vobis ago.
>
>
> In cruce salus,
>
> M. Flavius Iustinus
>

Salvéte, amícae et amící!

To preface this post I want to say that I do not necessarily support anything that is covered in either the links or the film that this concerns.

However, Religulous is one of the funniest films I have seen in a very long time. However for some it may not be so funny, but I guess we all approach things differently, and the evidence is clear right here in Nova Roma. Those close to me here in Nova Roma know that I do not watch much TV, what they may not know is that I rarely ever watch a movie twice, it has to be very good. I watched it this morning for the second time. Does it have any social redeeming value? That's for you to decide, I simply enjoyed it and anything that can set me to giggles is a keeper, but then I like Bill Maher's sarcastic political humor even though I don't always agree with it.

What I really enjoyed was Father Reginald Foster. I hope to someday look him up. The segment is enlightening to those who only have an outsider's view point to Catholicism or who have been deterred in someway with the Pre-1990's Church. He is very much like the priests I have met, debated with and often exasperated. And have befriended lifelong through a mutual respect. He is progressive, and I will not say liberal, I will say, realistic.

You can see Religulous here, and if anything just fast forward to the Vatican segment: http://www.thumpbox.com/

Btw, Father Reginald Foster is known as the "Pope's Latinist" and teaches Latin on the streets of Rome, his favorite Roman being Cicero.

He is also very ill and was hospitalized in Jan 2009 but I do not know how he is. Optimé valé in cúrá deorum.

This is a video with a bit of humor in which he is singing in Latin after a Ceasar tour on the streets of Rome:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfExL0HkKb4

And here he is speaking Latin, fast forward to where he is actually speaking,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fRW1HUkG3c

If you look at the related videos you will see our own Avitus, which I highly recommend, Avitus Latin is pure music. Sorry Father Foster, your Latin is not as pretty:) and wellÂ…do I have to say anything about the pronunciation?

See for yourself.

I don't think that we should merely tolerate another's beliefs; we should respect it as we expect others to respect our own. If close your eyes to things outside your purview you just may miss the beauty within.

Cúráte ut valéatis atque di vos incolumes custodiant.

L. Julia Aquila

>
>
> Salvéte, amícae et amící!
>
>
>
> To preface this post I want to say that I do not necessarily support
> anything that is covered in either the links or the film that this
> concerns.
>
> However, Religulous is one of the funniest films I have seen in a

> long time. However for some it may not be so funny, but I guess we

> approach things differently, and the evidence is clear right here in
> Nova Roma. Those close to me here in Nova Roma know that I do not

> much TV, what they may not know is that I rarely ever watch a movie
> twice, it has to be very good. I watched it this morning for the

> time. Does it have any social redeeming value? That's for you to
> decide, I simply enjoyed it and anything that can set me to giggles

> keeper, but then I like Bill Maher's sarcastic political humor even
> though I don't always agree with it.
>
>
>
> What I really enjoyed was Father Reginald Foster. I hope to someday

> him up. The segment is enlightening to those who only have an
> outsider's view point to Catholicism or who have been deterred in
> someway with the Pre-1990's Church. He is very much like the priests
> I have met, debated with and often exasperated. And have befriended
> lifelong through a mutual respect. He is progressive, and I will

> liberal, I will say, realistic.
>
> You can see Religulous here, and if anything just fast forward to

> Vatican segment: http://www.thumpbox.com/ <http://www.thumpbox.com/>
>
>
>
> Btw, Father Reginald Foster is known as the "Pope's
> Latinist" and teaches Latin on the streets of Rome, his favorite
> Roman being Cicero.
>
> He is also very ill and was hospitalized in Jan 2009 but I do not

> how he is. Optimé valé in cúrá deorum.
>
>
>
> This is a video with a bit of humor in which he is singing in Latin
> after a Ceasar tour on the streets of Rome:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfExL0HkKb4
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfExL0HkKb4>
>
>
>
> And here he is speaking Latin, fast forward to where he is actually
> speaking,
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fRW1HUkG3c
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fRW1HUkG3c>
>
>
>
> If you look at the related videos you will see our own Avitus,

> highly recommend, Avitus Latin is pure music. Sorry Father Foster,

> Latin is not as pretty:) and wellÂ…do I have to say anything about
> the pronunciation?
>
> See for yourself.
>
>
>
> I don't think that we should merely tolerate another's beliefs;
> we should respect it as we expect others to respect our own. If

> your eyes to things outside your purview you just may miss the

> within.
>
>
>
> Cúráte ut valéatis atque di vos incolumes custodiant.
>
>
>
> L. Julia Aquila
>

Salve Livia,

> Unfortunately father Reginald Foster died. The news was posted on

> Latinitas.

I am saddened to hear that.

In that case meeting him may take a little more work. The Roman Catholic Church lost an innovator, someone who had the Pope's ear. This saddens me even more. He had courage to stand against the status quo and for that I admired him.

"In a place where there are no men, strive to be a man." Hillel from the Mishna.  He was strong mature courageous man who stood up when others acted indifferently or cowardly.

I really should visit Latinitas more often; actually I have some Latin lessons to get cracking onÂ… which is painfully obvious.

Thank you Livia,

Vale

Julia Aquila

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "livia_plauta" <livia.plauta@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Julia Aquila,
> hey, I just wanted to go and see Religulous at the cinema! I knew it
> must be fun, as the director is the same of "Borat".
>
> Unfortunately father Reginald Foster died. The news was posted on
> Latinitas.
> Optime vale,
> Livia

>
> Salvete omnes;
>
> I just came across this, was not aware that these had been

>
> Curse Tablets of Roman Britain
> http://curses.csad.ox.ac.uk/index.shtml
>
> --
> Best regards,
> M. Cocceius Firmus
>

>
>
> Salve Livia,
>
>
>
> > Unfortunately father Reginald Foster died. The news was posted on
>
> > Latinitas.
>
>
>
> I am saddened to hear that.
>
> In that case meeting him may take a little more work. The Roman

> Church lost an innovator, someone who had the Pope's ear. This

> me even more. He had courage to stand against the status quo and for
> that I admired him.
>
>
>
> "In a place where there are no men, strive to be a man." Hillel

> Mishna. He was strong mature courageous man who stood up when

> acted indifferently or cowardly.
>
>
>
> I really should visit Latinitas more often; actually I have some

> lessons to get cracking onÂ… which is painfully obvious.
>
> Thank you Livia,
>
>
>
> Vale
>
> Julia Aquila
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "livia_plauta" <livia.plauta@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Salve Julia Aquila,
> > hey, I just wanted to go and see Religulous at the cinema! I knew

> > must be fun, as the director is the same of "Borat".
> >
> > Unfortunately father Reginald Foster died. The news was posted on
> > Latinitas.
> > Optime vale,
> > Livia
>

On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 12:35 AM, fratercorleonis <fratercorleonis@...> wrote:

Omnes:

per request, the name of the forming Sodalitas has been amended to
Sodalitas Christiana. The new URL is
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sodalitas-Christiana. Please make a note
of it.

In cruce salus,

M. Flavius Iustinus

----- Original Message -----

From: Titus Annaeus Regulus

To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 4:31 PM

Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Sodalitas Christianorum

Salve,

 

All groups must logically have some boundaries or else they would just use the ML. Depending on the point of the group this may or may not be a sensible inclusion of other groups. If you were setting up a religious group to worship the RR for example, would you appreciate if Nordic and Hellenistic paganism had to be lumped in as well because they are all polytheistic and share numerous similarities? I certainly wouldn't. They should have their own groups, they are distinct. If I wanted to worship I would want a sense of a community that shares beliefs and are gathered together to celebrate, not fight. That's the point. It is my firm opinion that it is not for others to decide what is a logical division in a person's faith. But I don't think this is what Justinus is implying at all, nor do I think this is a group for worshipping, although perhaps it is.

 

If on the other hand the purpose of the group is to be more geared towards historical discussion (which is what I think it is), then I can't see a comprehensive discussion omitting these significant Classical sects of Christianity and so I would support them being included.

 

Besides, judging from Justinus' post, it seems that all Christians and those interested in the study of Christianity (especially during the Roman period) are welcome. Why would that imply to you that certain sects of Christianity would not be admitted? They were all definitely Christian sects from the Roman period. His post seems to imply that you don't even have to be Christian to join, just interested in the study of Christianity. A very open group from all appearances.

 

Vale,

Regulus

From: vallenporter

Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 2:30 AM

To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com

Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Sodalitas Christianorum

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, "fratercorleonis"
<fratercorleonis@ ...> wrote:
>
> Avete omnes,
>
>
> I am interested in the formation of a Sodalitas Christianorum, a club
> for Christians and those interested in the study of Christianity
> (especially during the Roman period). If anyone else is interested in
> helping with this project please contact me via the Nova Roma site or
> email my yahoo. Gratias vobis ago.
>
>
> In cruce salus,
>
> M. Flavius Iustinus
>
so would this be for the Pre-Nicene Gnostic/ Catholic churchs
as we have in novaroma people who follow Arianism , and Pelagianism
and all kinds of Pre-Nicene goodess so can they be part of your group?
if not WHATS the point?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Aucun virus connu à ce jour par nos services n'a été détecté.

----- Original Message -----

From: Titus Annaeus Regulus

To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 4:14 PM

Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] Sodalitas Christianorum

The main page says 3 separate things. One relating to Rome's historical significance to Western societies. One relating to the Roman virtues. One relating to the calling gods of Rome. In that light presumably it could be and is many things. While it is surely possible that Nova Roma should act primarily as a religious organization to the exclusion of other groups, it doesn't necessarily have to be so. That the RR will remain important is beyond question, but to what degree other groups would be permitted and under what circumstances can vary significantly. Is it possible for a Roman state to honour its gods and still have organized groups of other religions within it? Of course, that is the actual example the ancients have set for us.

 

Although I have heard several individuals say that NR was founded as a religious organization and the state created later out of necessity (and I believe them), the admission of those of all creeds means that the state must be important in its own right as well. Surely those non-practitioners of the RR are not welcomed into NR for the sake of religion? As your book says, the foundation was religious, it cannot be separated from the Roman government. However, with growth comes change. Since NR's founding it has been changing. The Romans espoused expansion and they brought their culture to all corners of the world, but it left them by no means unchanged. When is the point when Romans ceased to be Roman? Some would say Rome's empire corrupted its previously virtuous nobles and thus lost their Romanitas. Greek influence on the nobles perhaps? Others would say Christianity becoming the state religion is the point to mark. More would go right up to the fall of the Western Empire, and some even claim the very last Byzantines were still Romans. What defines the core of Romanitas? It seems to vary.

 

I certainly don't know. But I think that it should be established. You clearly think the RR is the core of Romanitas. That is certainly a possibility in my mind as well. NR certainly would not be as Roman without it. However to do away with free speech, the Republican government, or any number of other things would all detract as much from NR imo. Right now we have people who are all here for different reasons, which I suspect may be the cause of much of the conflict in NR. If the purpose of NR is simply to house the RR, then why would non-practitioners be welcome? If the point of NR is to recreate Republican Roman government (and the intertwined religious offices by extension) then you can have all the other groups you want without detracting from the RR's position as the state-religion. Until we have established a definitive answer to 'What is Nova Roma?' then I think Nova Roma will lack the unity of purpose to achieve its full potential. Even if the answer causes some citizens to leave, at the least those who remain will know what their goal is and can start working towards it.

 

Vale,

Regulus 

From: philippe cardon

Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 6:06 AM

To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com

Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] Sodalitas Christianorum

it seems to me you point out in the first part of your mail te "ambiguous" character of NR since the begining

who are we? what do we want? what is the goal?

it seems also to me that thera are many reneactment societies, historical groups focussed on discussions about rome, group about latin, group about antiquity and classical litterature etc;

 

NR is a state, the state where the rebuilding of the RR is possible because senate and magistrates give authority to pontifices and sacerdotes and organize the PUBLIC worship of the gods

 

that the goal if i undertsand well what the main page of the site says  "because the gods are calling..." (that is already a christianized sentence, and i don't know if true pagan people must speak also, but ....)

 

is it a narrowed goal... perhaps and probably for some but one can lives his passion for Rome in many groups as i said, here are those who want to focuses on the core of the roman idea, that is the religion as we can use this word - one "chistianized" sentence more

 

as i learnt so many years ago readind fustel de Coulanges "la cité antique " a classical book from the 19th CE of which an english translation must exist: the foundation of the city was religious, it is not apart but the essential thing

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Titus Annaeus Regulus

To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com

Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 1:55 AM

Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] Sodalitas Christianorum

Regulus Ahenobarbo s.p.d.

 

I guess the 'seriousness' of Nova Roma as a state depends on whether or not it is trying to represent all the citizens it has now today, or emulate those of the past. While the latter will surely give a much more historically accurate and homogeneous group, it severely curtails the potential of NR to ever become more than 'a religious organization' (and a small one at that). As 'a religious group' it makes no sense to allow other religions to have a place in NR; as a state (or even a growing organization) with many of other faiths who contribute to public life and the functioning of NR it makes perfect sense.

 

Nova Roma looks to the past with reverence of course, but we cannot allow this nostalgia cloud our eyes in the face of modern practicalities. Romans were famous for adapting to new situations and technologies. Right now, I would estimate that the relatively small majority of active citizens probably are pagan. If Nova Roma were to grow large enough to have temples, own towns, forts, a functioning Senate House, etc. the chances of doing so without taking in a massive influx of monotheists is rather slim. I know that you are a supporter of NR growing and becoming a bigger and better organization, but to do that there must be an element of pragmatism.

 

Am I interested in having a church group here in NR? Not really. I have a billion people in my church group already, I don't bring that here. (I would be more interested in perhaps the historical aspect and Christianity' s evolution under Judaic and Roman influences personally) But if other citizens do, why not let them? As long as they continue to accept the RR's unique place as the state religion, the religion that was born and grew with the Republica all Nova Romans revere as the greatest civilization of all time, why can't they be accepted and fully integrated in NR? I think that having all modern religions and schools of thought integrated into Ancient Roman society would be quite a boon and highly faithful to the Ancient Roman way. The more we can illustrate that Roman virtues and values still have meaning into today's world then the better job we are doing as Nova Romans in my opinion. If religion is important for some citizens who make a valuable contribution to NR, then is it not worth it to give them that freedom?

 

Your points are valid, if Nova Roma is a pagan organization it should be exclusively pagan, having another organized religious group within NR is completely counter-intuitive. If Nova Roma has other objectives, then I would see other religious groups in NR as neutral to the mission of the RR, but beneficial to NR as a whole. I leave it up to others as to what is the 'right' decision. It is a choice. Clearly the more you make Nova Roma a pagan organization the more you limit your potential membership and thus the less you can do in terms of more secular objectives. But the increase in homogeneity makes religious strife more unlikely. This single decision will surely not make or break Nova Roma, but as recognizable patterns of behaviour emerge over time, I'm sure Nova Roma will become known as more or less pagan and more or less Republican. It's something to think about, the things we offer and the decisions we make say a lot about us to potential citizens. For me at least, it is the ability to live the Roman virtues in my modern life that attracts me most to Nova Roma. Some of the cives here are so knowledgeable I find myself constantly improving in my understanding of the Ancient Roman psyche.

 

As long as we have enough people to make a sodalitas active, and it is not treasonous, I personally fully support any and all groups. We allow all creeds into NR; we tout our freedom of speech; to me the idea of allowing or disallowing groups based on the topic of the group's conversation flies directly in the face of both of these in my view.

 

Vale

From: Gnaeus Caelius Ahenobarbus

Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 12:49 PM

To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com

Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] Sodalitas Christianorum

Cn. Caelius Ahenobarbus K. Fabio. Buteoni Modiano omnibusque s.p.d.

>Then that asks a question is this sodalitas designed for practicing Christians?. ..
>IF it is to be an "ecclesia" for modern believing Christians then I'm not sure
>Nova Roma is the right avenue for that -- join a church.

    Indeed. Nova Roma is a pagan organization. Creating a sodality for Christians "to practice Christianity in a Greco-Roman context" within a pagan organization would be similar to me going to a Christian church and creating an internal group to worship a Roman god. The Christians would be amazed that I would even ask such a thing. Then, there may be laughter on their part. Then they would very clearly---and with many good reasons---say, "no".
    There are limits to what could be considered logical inclusiveness. With this idea, we are now close to those limits.

Optime vale, et valete.

--
Gnaeus Caelius Ahenobarbus
Lictor Curiatus, Accensus Consulum, et Scriba Aedilis Curulis
http://becomingnewt hroughtheold. blogspot. com

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A. Tullia Scholastica L. Liviae Plautae quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
 

Salve Julia Aquila,
hey, I just wanted to go and see Religulous at the cinema! I knew it
must be fun, as the director is the same of "Borat".

Unfortunately father Reginald Foster died. The news was posted on
Latinitas.

    ATS:  That is not true.  There was no such notice on Latinitas, nor in the Forum Latinum.  Father Foster was gravely ill, near death from what we had heard, but there was a report that he had been moved from the ICU to subacute care, and was improving.  One of my students is in Rome right now, and will inform me on his return, plus I shall ask Avitus, with whom I am in contact almost daily.  

    Please, let us get the facts straight...if Reginaldus had passed on, it would have been in the GLL and Avitus would have mentioned this as well.  
    
Optime vale,
Livia

Vale, et valete.
>
>
> Salvéte, amícae et amící!
>
>
>
> To preface this post I want to say that I do not necessarily support
> anything that is covered in either the links or the film that this
> concerns.
>
> However, Religulous is one of the funniest films I have seen in a
very
> long time. However for some it may not be so funny, but I guess we
all
> approach things differently, and the evidence is clear right here in
> Nova Roma. Those close to me here in Nova Roma know that I do not
watch
> much TV, what they may not know is that I rarely ever watch a movie
> twice, it has to be very good. I watched it this morning for the
second
> time. Does it have any social redeeming value? That's for you to
> decide, I simply enjoyed it and anything that can set me to giggles
is a
> keeper, but then I like Bill Maher's sarcastic political humor even
> though I don't always agree with it.
>
>
>
> What I really enjoyed was Father Reginald Foster. I hope to someday
look
> him up. The segment is enlightening to those who only have an
> outsider's view point to Catholicism or who have been deterred in
> someway with the Pre-1990's Church. He is very much like the priests
> I have met, debated with and often exasperated. And have befriended
> lifelong through a mutual respect. He is progressive, and I will
not say
> liberal, I will say, realistic.
>
> You can see Religulous here, and if anything just fast forward to
the
> Vatican segment: http://www.thumpbox.com/ <http://www.thumpbox.com/>
>
>
>
> Btw, Father Reginald Foster is known as the "Pope's
> Latinist" and teaches Latin on the streets of Rome, his favorite
> Roman being Cicero.
>
> He is also very ill and was hospitalized in Jan 2009 but I do not
know
> how he is. Optimé valé in cúrá deorum.
>
>
>
> This is a video with a bit of humor in which he is singing in Latin
> after a Ceasar tour on the streets of Rome:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfExL0HkKb4
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfExL0HkKb4>
>
>
>
> And here he is speaking Latin, fast forward to where he is actually
> speaking,
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fRW1HUkG3c
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fRW1HUkG3c>
>
>
>
> If you look at the related videos you will see our own Avitus,
which I
> highly recommend, Avitus Latin is pure music. Sorry Father Foster,
your
> Latin is not as pretty:) and well∑do I have to say anything about
> the pronunciation?
>
> See for yourself.
>
>
>
> I don't think that we should merely tolerate another's beliefs;
> we should respect it as we expect others to respect our own. If
close
> your eyes to things outside your purview you just may miss the
beauty
> within.
>
>
>
> Cúráte ut valéatis atque di vos incolumes custodiant.
>
>
>
> L. Julia Aquila
>

  
    

   
   Messages in this topic           <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/61600

>
> Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus M. Flavio Iustino salutem dicit
>
> I had joined this group. Was accepted, saw a message by Cato.

> and now it seems am no longer on the list. Why was I removed?
>
> Vale;
>
> Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus

Aquila   Scholasticae sal.

Grátiás tibi!

Good news amica, will check in over the weekend for an update!

Optimé valé

Julia Aquila

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Tullia Scholastica" <fororom@...> wrote:
>
> > A. Tullia Scholastica L. Liviae Plautae quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque
> > bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
> >
> >
> > Salve Julia Aquila,
> > hey, I just wanted to go and see Religulous at the cinema! I knew it
> > must be fun, as the director is the same of "Borat".
> >
> > Unfortunately father Reginald Foster died. The news was posted on
> > Latinitas.
> >
> > ATS: That is not true. There was no such notice on Latinitas, nor in the
> > Forum Latinum. Father Foster was gravely ill, near death from what we had
> > heard, but there was a report that he had been moved from the ICU to subacute
> > care, and was improving. One of my students is in Rome right now, and will
> > inform me on his return, plus I shall ask Avitus, with whom I am in contact
> > almost daily.
> >
> > Please, let us get the facts straight...if Reginaldus had passed on, it
> > would have been in the GLL and Avitus would have mentioned this as well.
> >
> > Optime vale,
> > Livia
> >
> > Vale, et valete.

> But the main point of my post, and you did agree with it, is that
> we should as a group decide what we want.

>
> Salve,
> Of course, if one is an initiate of the Mysteries of Mithras, one

> I bet if archaeaologists dig a little deeper, they'd find a Roman

>  
> "Salve, what is the special today?"
>  
> "Today's special is the Sol Invictus ribeye. We also have a new

>  
> "Can I get that without caligula; I don't like caligula in my

>  
> "Of course, how would you like your steak?"
>  
> "Rare."
>  
> "Would you want the nero sear."
>  
> "No, just bloody."
>  
> "Beef: its whats for communion".
>  
> Vale,
> A. Sempronius Regulus
>
>
> --- On Thu, 2/19/09, Gaius Petronius Dexter <jfarnoud94@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: Gaius Petronius Dexter <jfarnoud94@...>
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Beef vs Pork
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thursday, February 19, 2009, 5:21 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Ave!
>
> > "Pork is fine but swine is divine." Henry II
>
> "Dans le cochon tout est bon." French advertising.
>
> Vale.
>
> C. Petronius Dexter
>