Selected messages in Nova-Roma group. Apl 16-19, 2009

Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63305 From: Patrick D. Owen Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: Lecture at the Parthenon in Nashville, TN tonight.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63306 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: Re: Feriae Latinae
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63307 From: L Julia Aquila Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: Re: Feriae Latinae
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63308 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: Re: Fw: Back Alley Insults the Virgo Maxima
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63309 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: Re: Feriae Latinae
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63310 From: Christer Edling Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: Re: Fw: Back Alley Insults the Virgo Maxima
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63311 From: Christer Edling Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: Re: Feriae Latinae
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63312 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: Re: Fw: Back Alley Insults the Virgo Maxima
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63313 From: Publius Memmius Albucius Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63314 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63315 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63316 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63317 From: Titus Flavius Aquila Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: AW: [Nova-Roma] MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63318 From: L Julia Aquila Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: Re: Rome as a memory and realistic dream — your relation to the Urb
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63319 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: Re: AW: [Nova-Roma] MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63320 From: Maior Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63321 From: enodia2002 Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63322 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63323 From: Titus Annaeus Regulus Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63324 From: enodia2002 Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63325 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63326 From: Lucius Iulius Regulus Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: Interesting News on the Tomb of Antony and Cleopatra
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63327 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: MMP
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63328 From: Maior Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63329 From: Maior Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: Re: Interesting News on the Tomb of Antony and Cleopatra
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63330 From: L Julia Aquila Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: Re: Interesting News on the Tomb of Antony and Cleopatra
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63331 From: Maior Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: Roman cookery
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63332 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: Improving our Latin on the Nova Roma WIKI
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63333 From: aerdensrw Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: Fw: Back Alley Insults the Virgo Maxima
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63334 From: gaiuspopilliuslaenas Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63335 From: aerdensrw Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63336 From: Lucius Cornelius Cicero Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63337 From: enodia2002 Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63338 From: Titus Flavius Aquila Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: AW: [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63339 From: gaiuspopilliuslaenas Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63340 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63341 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Corporate Compliance
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63342 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63343 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63344 From: vallenporter Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: it not about perpetuating political feuds
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63345 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63346 From: Lucius Cornelius Cicero Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63347 From: vallenporter Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63348 From: vallenporter Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63349 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63350 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: Corporate Compliance
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63351 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: Corporate Compliance
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63352 From: vallenporter Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: Corporate Compliance
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63353 From: M.CVR.COMPLVTENSIS Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: BECAUSE THE ARGUMENTS OF Cn.IULIUS CAESAR ARE WRONG
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63354 From: livia_plauta Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63355 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: BECAUSE THE ARGUMENTS OF Cn.IULIUS CAESAR ARE WRONG [1 Attachmen
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63356 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: BECAUSE THE ARGUMENTS OF Cn.IULIUS CAESAR ARE WRONG [1 Attachmen
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63357 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: Fw: Back Alley Insults the Virgo Maxima
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63358 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: BECAUSE THE ARGUMENTS OF Cn.IULIUS CAESAR ARE WRONG [1 Attach...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63359 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63360 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63361 From: Lucius Cornelius Cicero Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: Fw: Back Alley Insults the Virgo Maxima
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63362 From: Lucius Cornelius Cicero Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: BECAUSE THE ARGUMENTS OF Cn.IULIUS CAESAR ARE WRONG
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63363 From: Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: BECAUSE THE ARGUMENTS OF Cn.IULIUS CAESAR ARE WRONG [1 Attachmen
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63364 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63365 From: Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63366 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63367 From: livia_plauta Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63368 From: livia_plauta Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63369 From: livia_plauta Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63370 From: enodia2002 Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63371 From: livia_plauta Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: BECAUSE THE ARGUMENTS OF Cn.IULIUS CAESAR ARE WRONG [1 Attachmen
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63372 From: Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Valorization, a Communist concept
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63373 From: enodia2002 Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63374 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: BECAUSE THE ARGUMENTS OF Cn.IULIUS CAESAR ARE WRONG
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63375 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63376 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: Corporate Compliance
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63377 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: a.d. XV Kal. Mai.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63378 From: Maior Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63379 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63380 From: Titus Iulius Sabinus Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63381 From: enodia2002 Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63382 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63383 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63384 From: Maior Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63385 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63386 From: enodia2002 Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63387 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63388 From: Maior Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63389 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63390 From: Titus Iulius Sabinus Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63391 From: Maior Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: Roman attitudes to the law [was MMP suspension of website - I
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63392 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP Refunds
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63393 From: enodia2002 Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63394 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63395 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: Roman attitudes to the law [was MMP suspension of website - I
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63396 From: Titus Iulius Sabinus Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP Refunds
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63397 From: Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP Refunds
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63398 From: Titus Iulius Sabinus Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63399 From: Maior Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: Roman attitudes to the law [was MMP suspension of website - I
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63400 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: Roman attitudes to the law
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63401 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63402 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: Roman attitudes to the law [was MMP suspension of website - I
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63403 From: Titus Annaeus Regulus Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: Roman attitudes to the law [was MMP suspension of website - I
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63404 From: Maior Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: Roman attitudes to the law [was MMP suspension of website - I
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63405 From: Vedius Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: Roman attitudes to the law [was MMP suspension of website - I
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63406 From: Titus Iulius Sabinus Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63407 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: Roman attitudes to the law [was MMP suspension of website - I
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63408 From: Maior Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: Roman attitudes to the law
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63409 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: Roman attitudes to the law
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63410 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63411 From: c.aqvillivs_rota Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: TO ALL CITIZENS IN THE US
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63412 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63413 From: Maior Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: BECAUSE THE ARGUMENTS OF Cn.IULIUS CAESAR ARE WRONG [1 Attachmen
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63414 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63415 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: BECAUSE THE ARGUMENTS OF Cn.IULIUS CAESAR ARE WRONG [1 Attachmen
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63416 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: Roman attitudes to the law [was MMP suspension of website - I
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63417 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63418 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63419 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: BECAUSE THE ARGUMENTS OF Cn.IULIUS CAESAR ARE WRONG
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63420 From: D. Boyle Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63421 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63422 From: enodia2002 Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63423 From: vallenporter Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63424 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63425 From: vallenporter Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Restoration is defined as
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63426 From: vallenporter Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Restoration is defined as
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63427 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63428 From: vallenporter Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: MMP
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63429 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63430 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63431 From: vallenporter Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: MMP
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63432 From: Titus Flavius Aquila Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: AW: [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63433 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: Moderation Experiment
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63434 From: livia_plauta Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: Valorization, a Communist concept
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63435 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: Moderation Experiment
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63436 From: livia_plauta Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: BECAUSE THE ARGUMENTS OF Cn.IULIUS CAESAR ARE WRONG
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63437 From: livia_plauta Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63438 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: BECAUSE THE ARGUMENTS OF Cn.IULIUS CAESAR ARE WRONG
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63439 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: Valorization, a Communist concept
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63440 From: livia_plauta Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63441 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: a.d. XIV Kal. Mai.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63442 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: Valorization, a Communist concept
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63443 From: Kirsteen Wright Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: Valorization, a Communist concept
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63444 From: Titus Annaeus Regulus Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: BECAUSE THE ARGUMENTS OF Cn.IULIUS CAESAR ARE WRONG
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63445 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Conservation and Restoration (long post)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63446 From: Steve Moore Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: Conservation and Restoration (long post)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63447 From: Steve Moore Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Reasonable Person Argument
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63448 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: Conservation and Restoration (long post)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63449 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: Conservation and Restoration (long post)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63450 From: Christer Edling Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: Conservation and Restoration (long post)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63451 From: Kirsteen Wright Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: Conservation and Restoration (long post)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63452 From: Maior Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: our CFO and Nova Roma's upstanding status
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63453 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: our CFO and Nova Roma's upstanding status
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63454 From: Teresa Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63455 From: vallenporter Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: our CFO and Nova Roma's upstanding status
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63456 From: vallenporter Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: our CFO and Nova Roma's upstanding status
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63457 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: our CFO and Nova Roma's upstanding status
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63458 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: MMp donations
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63459 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Fw: [BackAlley] FWD from ML
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63460 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: TO ALL CITIZENS IN THE US
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63461 From: Publius Memmius Albucius Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Title of a topic ('Valorization, a Communist concept')
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63462 From: Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: Title of a topic ('Valorization, a Communist concept')
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63463 From: livia_plauta Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: Conservation and Restoration (long post)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63465 From: Titus Annaeus Regulus Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: Conservation and Restoration (long post)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63466 From: S Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: Title of a topic ('Valorization, a Communist concept')
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63467 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: Conservation and Restoration (long post)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63468 From: Gaius Popillius Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Resignation
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63469 From: Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: Resignation
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63470 From: Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Longevity in Nova Roma. . .
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63471 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: News - Rome / Ostia: Bertolaso resigns as Archaeological Commissione
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63472 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: Resignation
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63474 From: S Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Main List Post #63464. . .
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63475 From: Colin Brodd Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Message from Gaius Equitius Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63476 From: Maior Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Cerealia dies nefastus publicus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63477 From: Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator Date: 2009-04-18
Subject: Re: Cerealia dies nefastus publicus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63478 From: Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator Date: 2009-04-19
Subject: Mao expressing concern for Sulla - OLD post - Thu Dec 4, 2003
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63479 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2009-04-19
Subject: Re: Conservation and Restoration
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63480 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2009-04-19
Subject: (no subject)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63481 From: Publius Memmius Albucius Date: 2009-04-19
Subject: Day off - nefastus publicus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63482 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2009-04-19
Subject: Re: Day off - nefastus publicus



Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63305 From: Patrick D. Owen Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: Lecture at the Parthenon in Nashville, TN tonight.
Thursday, April 16, 2009 at 7:00 PM
Hans Goette, German Archaeological Institute (Kress Lecture)
The Classical Greek Theatre: Architecture, Performance, Cult
Where: Nashville Parthenon

Fl. Galerius Aurelianus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63306 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: Re: Feriae Latinae
Ave K. Fabi Buteo Quintiliane!

> I wish You a wonderful trip and wish I could join You. But I will be
> with You, Livia Plauta and our Italian friends in my prayers.

Thank you very much.

> Please also perform a small ceremony for Goddess Palatua on the 21st
> of April and if possible do it on the Palatine Hill. If You can't do
> it on the Hill I still think the Protecess wil appreciate a small
> ceremonie in her city on the 21st of April.

In Rome I want also perform a little ceremony for God Portunus, of course I shall try one for the Goddess Palatua and, as I said you on the Collegium Pontificum list, I shall go on the Antiquarium of the Palatine Hill, if it is open.

Prospere vale.
C. Petronius Dexter
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63307 From: L Julia Aquila Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: Re: Feriae Latinae
Salve, et Salvete,

>"Remus decided to show how weak was Romulus' city by jumping over >his wall. However, Romulus had left orders with his servants that >if anyone tried to come over his wall, that person was to be >killed. After he had retired to sleep, Remus came bounding over the >wall and one of the servants killed him with a spade. Romulus gave >his brother full funerary honors and games but he did not punish the >servant because he was following his instructions. The citizens of >Remus' city then came over to the city of Romulus."

Thank you Pontifex, words we should all ponder.

Vale, et valete
Julia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@... wrote:
>
> The death of Remus was an accident.? After both had taken auspices, both felt that they had the right to found a new city.? Romulus did so on the Palantine while Remus did so on the Aventine.? After the pomerium had been established on each hill and a small breastwork had been constructed,?Remus decided to show how weak was Romulus' city by jumping over his wall.? However, Romulus had left orders with his servants that if anyone tried to come over his wall, that person was to be killed.? After he had retired to sleep, Remus came bounding over the wall and one of the servants killed him with a spade.? Romulus gave his brother full funerary honors and games but he did not punish the servant because he was following his instructions.? The citizens of Remus' city then came over to the city of Romulus.
>
> Fl. Galerius Aurelianus
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Q. Valerius Poplicola <q.valerius.poplicola@...>
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 3:33 pm
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Feriae Latinae
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> You are like Remus, in that you don't want a single Rome like Romulus. Why
> must you be a Remus and support factionalism and strife, which is what
> killed Roma in the first place?
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Gaius Petronius Dexter" <jfarnoud94@...>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 2:48 PM
> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Feriae Latinae
>
> > C. Petronius Dexter Quiritibus s.p.d.,
> >
> > Dear NR citizens,
> >
> > Some citizens operate behind the scenes in Back Alley to depreciate Nova
> > Roma, they are like Remus, and some citizens want to do many things to
> > make Nova Roma more great, more living, they are like Romulus.
> >
> > I am in the Romulus party, so I shall fly to Rome on 17th april to perform
> > with some Italian NR Citizens and the quaestrix Livia Plauta a public
> > sacrifice to Jupiter Latiaris, in which I shall add words for the earth
> > quake victims, on the Monte Albano the 20th of April.
> >
> > In the name of Nova Roma. I, as flamen Portunalis, have the ok of the
> > Collegium Pontificum to perform this sacrifice and I thank very much our
> > Pontifex Maximus M. Moravius Piscinus, the pontifices Cn. Cornelius
> > Lentulus and Antonius Gryllus which wrote the text of the ceremony and the
> > Latin text of the prayers, the quaestrix Livia Plauta which made me a
> > beautiful toga and I shall perform the sacrifices togatus.
> >
> > I think that Romulus found Rome on the Parilia, the 21th of April. A very
> > holly day.
> >
> > I am proud to act for the good of Nova Roma and I shall perform the Feriae
> > Latinae with great pleasure.
> >
> > Valete.
> > C. Petronius Dexter
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63308 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: Re: Fw: Back Alley Insults the Virgo Maxima
Q. Valerius Poplicola Fl. Galerio Aureliano SPD

I was not speaking directly about this Virgo Maxima. Indeed, if I were, it
would have been aired in the Collegium Pontificum, where we agreed to keep
such discussions. Also, this "no authority except the Pontifex Maximus" is a
very unRoman position indeed. The Senate and Consuls always held precedent,
and if the Virgo Maxima engaged in sexual behavior, she could be prosecuted
with or without the consent of the Pontifex Maximus.

--------------------------------------------------
From: <PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...>
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 10:12 AM
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Fw: Back Alley Insults the Virgo Maxima

> Fl. Galerius Aurelianus Q. Valerio Poplicola sal.
>
> If any citizen engages in posts that result in a loss of civility or order
> on the official fora of Nova Roma, then that person is subject to warning
> and moderation at the discretion of the praetores.
>
> The Virgo Vestalis Maxima is subject to no authority save that of the
> Pontifex Maximus, so it is not for any other citizen, flamen, augur, or
> pontifex to make a decision on whether or not what she posts is
> irreligious.? Each of the sacerdoes of the various cults is responsible to
> act within a proper framework as established by the Declaration of the
> Religio Romana, the Constitution, and the many edicta and discreta of our
> organization.
>
> I have not seen that the Virgo Vestalis Maxima has acted in any manner
> that is detrimental to her office or cultus.? If you feel otherwise, I
> would kindly suggest that you bring it to the attention of the Pontifex
> Maximus.
>
> As a private citizen and pontifex, I find it personally repugnant that any
> member of the Senate or Collegium Pontificum would suggest on any list
> (official or not)?that the Virgo Vestalis needs to get l***.? Anyone who
> has done so lacks respect for the cultus of Vesta Mater and I personally
> believe they are acting like swine.
>
> Vale.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Q. Valerius Poplicola <q.valerius.poplicola@...>
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 3:31 pm
> Subject: Re: WG: AW: [Nova-Roma] Re: Fw: Back Alley Insults the Virgo
> Maxima
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> So what happens when the Virgo Vestalis Maxima insults others or posts
> irreligious information?
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Titus Flavius Aquila" <titus.aquila@...>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 2:40 PM
> To: <gaiuspopillius@...>; <spqr753@...>
> Cc: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: WG: AW: [Nova-Roma] Re: Fw: Back Alley Insults the Virgo Maxima
>
>>
>>
>> Salvete Censores,
>>
>> I request actions against all citizens who have insulted the Virgo
>> Maxima,
>> if they do not apologize in person .
>>
>> Optime valete
>>
>> Titus Flavius Aquila
>> Quaestor
>> Accensus Consulibus
>> Scriba Censoribus
>> Legatus Pro Praetore Provincia Germania
>> Collegium sodalitas proDIIS
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63309 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: Re: Feriae Latinae
That is indeed one version.

--------------------------------------------------
From: <PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...>
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 10:17 AM
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Feriae Latinae

> The death of Remus was an accident.? After both had taken auspices, both
> felt that they had the right to found a new city.? Romulus did so on the
> Palantine while Remus did so on the Aventine.? After the pomerium had been
> established on each hill and a small breastwork had been
> constructed,?Remus decided to show how weak was Romulus' city by jumping
> over his wall.? However, Romulus had left orders with his servants that if
> anyone tried to come over his wall, that person was to be killed.? After
> he had retired to sleep, Remus came bounding over the wall and one of the
> servants killed him with a spade.? Romulus gave his brother full funerary
> honors and games but he did not punish the servant because he was
> following his instructions.? The citizens of Remus' city then came over to
> the city of Romulus.
>
> Fl. Galerius Aurelianus
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Q. Valerius Poplicola <q.valerius.poplicola@...>
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 3:33 pm
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Feriae Latinae
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> You are like Remus, in that you don't want a single Rome like Romulus. Why
> must you be a Remus and support factionalism and strife, which is what
> killed Roma in the first place?
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Gaius Petronius Dexter" <jfarnoud94@...>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 2:48 PM
> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Feriae Latinae
>
>> C. Petronius Dexter Quiritibus s.p.d.,
>>
>> Dear NR citizens,
>>
>> Some citizens operate behind the scenes in Back Alley to depreciate Nova
>> Roma, they are like Remus, and some citizens want to do many things to
>> make Nova Roma more great, more living, they are like Romulus.
>>
>> I am in the Romulus party, so I shall fly to Rome on 17th april to
>> perform
>> with some Italian NR Citizens and the quaestrix Livia Plauta a public
>> sacrifice to Jupiter Latiaris, in which I shall add words for the earth
>> quake victims, on the Monte Albano the 20th of April.
>>
>> In the name of Nova Roma. I, as flamen Portunalis, have the ok of the
>> Collegium Pontificum to perform this sacrifice and I thank very much our
>> Pontifex Maximus M. Moravius Piscinus, the pontifices Cn. Cornelius
>> Lentulus and Antonius Gryllus which wrote the text of the ceremony and
>> the
>> Latin text of the prayers, the quaestrix Livia Plauta which made me a
>> beautiful toga and I shall perform the sacrifices togatus.
>>
>> I think that Romulus found Rome on the Parilia, the 21th of April. A very
>> holly day.
>>
>> I am proud to act for the good of Nova Roma and I shall perform the
>> Feriae
>> Latinae with great pleasure.
>>
>> Valete.
>> C. Petronius Dexter
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63310 From: Christer Edling Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: Re: Fw: Back Alley Insults the Virgo Maxima
Salve Maxima Valeria Messallina, Vestale Maxima!

I am schocked and disgusted! 

Such a behavior would never be tolerated i Rome or any city where the Romans could reach any one who did this in a foreign country would be dealt with in the harshest of ways. Still I am not very surprised, some people just don't know or remember how to behave as a Roman. 

But even some of the "hardest" of these people have understood where the Gods and Goddesses set the limit, so they have apoligized to You and the Goddess. It is up to You and the Goddess to decide how to handle their apology. 

What will happen to those who defended this offence with no understanding of how Romans should behave and think I don't even want to think about.

**********

15 apr 2009 kl. 18.04 skrev Maxima Valeria Messallina:

No, Fabius, I am not an idiot nor am I a sycophant, but you sir a moron and a disgrace to the office of Pontifex!
Sulla, you are a cancer on Nova Roma!
And as for you, Octavia Aventina, when you proclaimed your vision on the ML a year ago, I supported you! I even included you in my Re-lighting the Fire Ritual posted to the Nova Roma website in honor of Nova Roma's tenth anniversary. As a Priestess, I would have expected better from you!
 
Citizens, what hope is there for Nova Roma if the Vestale Maxima can be so disrespected and insulted behind her back? How will I ever get any of the young women I am training to be Vestals to join Nova Roma if they see that is how the Vestale Maxima gets treated? I can revive the worship of Great Goddess Vesta without Nova Roma, but how does Nova Roma exist without Vestals?
 
And for the record, I am not a lesbian! (I have friends who are so do not accuse me of being homophobic either!) From the first day I chose to follow in the ancient Vestals' footsteps, I have been faithful in practicing ALL that is required of a Vestal, including
CHASTITY of mind and body! 
I even had a special hearth made in which I maintain a constant flame in honor of Great Vesta, have been training two more Vestals, perform daily rituals to Vesta for Nova Roma and keep the sacred feasts throughout the year that the Vestals of old did, all at my own expense. And now finally a small circle of Vesta devotees, both men and women, are starting to attend the first of our public rituals at which I have told them all about Nova Roma to encourage them to join. Well no more!
 
If the rest of you still believe that Sulla and his gang are worthy of even being called Nova Romans, let alone entrusting anything Nova Roman to them, then welcome you are to that rotten lot!
 
I am done!


--- On Wed, 4/15/09, billhawks@... <billhawks@...> wrote:
 
From: billhawks@... <billhawks@...>
Subject: Back Alley Insults the Virgo Maxima
To: "Maxima Valeria Messallina" <violetphearsen@...>
Date: Wednesday, April 15, 2009, 3:59 AM

Ave, Valeria Messallina
I thought you might like to see what they are saying about you on the Back Alley. I'm totally disgusted that they speak about a Vestal like this. I've changed my mind about joining Nova Roma.
 
 
<<On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 3:25 PM, <QFabiusMaxmi@...> wrote:
 
"It is my belief that Vesta and the other Gods and Goddesses of Rome are severely displeased that anyone should resort to the use of legal force to press his will upon Nova Roma. It sets a dangerous precedent.
I beg all those involved in this decision to reconsider.As for Sulla, his words are tarnished by his actions.
So say I, Maxima Valeria Messallina, Sacerdos Vestalis of Nova Roma."
 
OOOH  The Virgo Maxima is pissed at Cornelius.  Somebody inform this idiot there wouldn't a NR for the sacred flame to be relight without L. Cornelius Sulla's efforts.  See what I mean by sycophants?
 
BTW, even though I'm not an member of College of Augurs I still have the skill.  In L.A. today it is rainy and gloomy.  I set my Templum, on the roof top of my garage, the highest point on my property at 1:00 and asked Iuppiter Optimus Maximus "Should Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix be returned to New Rome as a Senator," and the sun broke through briefly at 1:05 PM PST, and the clouds closed in again at 1:07.
 
I take this to mean Iuppiter approved and Sulla is favored now of Apollo!
 
Fabius>>
 
 
--- In BackAlley@yahoogroups.com, Robert Woolwine <robert.woolwine@...> wrote:
Re: [BackAlley] The Virgo Maxima is unhappy 
 
Shit these pissants are lucky I accepted the compromise and did not sue the organization and file liens on all the board members - which would have been done immediately after the subpoena duces tecum (subponea to produce documents)

There are lessons to be learned - Never get involved in a land war in Asia
the next rule is don't fuck with the Jews!>> 
 
 
<<On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 3:15 AM, Diana Octavia Aventina <roman.babe@...> wrote:
 
She just needs to get laid.>>
 
 
________________________________
From Robert Woolwine <robert.woolwine@...>
To: BackAlley@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2009 6:52:26 PM
Subject: Re: [BackAlley] The Virgo Maxima is unhappy


ROFL...umm.. .wouldn't that be a bad thing?  Maybe she could hook up for some
lesbo action?  That is acceptable right?>>
 
 
<<On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 5:22 AM, Diana Octavia Aventina <roman.babe@...> wrote:

Not if the Virgo Maxima and her female partner use one of those double headed dildos.>>
 
 
<<--- In BackAlley@yahoogroups.com, Robert Woolwine <robert.woolwine@...> wrote:

 What you're saying that would be wrong? I thought it would be required?>>


*****************
Vale

Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus

Princeps Senatus et Flamen Palatualis
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
************************************************
Mons Palatinus, Clivus Victoriae 
Palatine Hill, Incline of Victoriae 





Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63311 From: Christer Edling Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: Re: Feriae Latinae
Salve Amice!

Thank You and good luck!

*************

16 apr 2009 kl. 18.05 skrev Gaius Petronius Dexter:

Ave K. Fabi Buteo Quintiliane!

> I wish You a wonderful trip and wish I could join You. But I will be
> with You, Livia Plauta and our Italian friends in my prayers.

Thank you very much.

> Please also perform a small ceremony for Goddess Palatua on the 21st
> of April and if possible do it on the Palatine Hill. If You can't do
> it on the Hill I still think the Protecess wil appreciate a small
> ceremonie in her city on the 21st of April.

In Rome I want also perform a little ceremony for God Portunus, of
course I shall try one for the Goddess Palatua and, as I said you on
the Collegium Pontificum list, I shall go on the Antiquarium of the
Palatine Hill, if it is open.

Prospere vale.
C. Petronius Dexter




*****************
Vale

Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus

Princeps Senatus et Flamen Palatualis
Civis Romanus sum
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Main_Page
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
************************************************
Mons Palatinus, Clivus Victoriae
Palatine Hill, Incline of Victoriae
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63312 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: Re: Fw: Back Alley Insults the Virgo Maxima
Can you back that up with evidence?

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Christer Edling" <christer.edling@...>
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 12:05 PM
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Fw: Back Alley Insults the Virgo Maxima

> Salve Maxima Valeria Messallina, Vestale Maxima!
>
> I am schocked and disgusted!
>
> Such a behavior would never be tolerated i Rome or any city where the
> Romans could reach any one who did this in a foreign country would be
> dealt with in the harshest of ways. Still I am not very surprised,
> some people just don't know or remember how to behave as a Roman.
>
> But even some of the "hardest" of these people have understood where
> the Gods and Goddesses set the limit, so they have apoligized to You
> and the Goddess. It is up to You and the Goddess to decide how to
> handle their apology.
>
> What will happen to those who defended this offence with no
> understanding of how Romans should behave and think I don't even want
> to think about.
>
> **********
>
> 15 apr 2009 kl. 18.04 skrev Maxima Valeria Messallina:
>
> No, Fabius, I am not an idiot nor am I a sycophant, but you sir a
> moron and a disgrace to the office of Pontifex!
> Sulla, you are a cancer on Nova Roma!
> And as for you, Octavia Aventina, when you proclaimed your vision on
> the ML a year ago, I supported you! I even included you in my Re-
> lighting the Fire Ritual posted to the Nova Roma website in honor of
> Nova Roma's tenth anniversary. As a Priestess, I would have expected
> better from you!
>
> Citizens, what hope is there for Nova Roma if the Vestale Maxima can
> be so disrespected and insulted behind her back? How will I ever get
> any of the young women I am training to be Vestals to join Nova Roma
> if they see that is how the Vestale Maxima gets treated? I can revive
> the worship of Great Goddess Vesta without Nova Roma, but how does
> Nova Roma exist without Vestals?
>
> And for the record, I am not a lesbian! (I have friends who are so do
> not accuse me of being homophobic either!) From the first day I chose
> to follow in the ancient Vestals' footsteps, I have been faithful in
> practicing ALL that is required of a Vestal, including
> CHASTITY of mind and body!
> I even had a special hearth made in which I maintain a constant flame
> in honor of Great Vesta, have been training two more Vestals, perform
> daily rituals to Vesta for Nova Roma and keep the sacred feasts
> throughout the year that the Vestals of old did, all at my own
> expense. And now finally a small circle of Vesta devotees, both men
> and women, are starting to attend the first of our public rituals at
> which I have told them all about Nova Roma to encourage them to join.
> Well no more!
>
> If the rest of you still believe that Sulla and his gang are worthy of
> even being called Nova Romans, let alone entrusting anything Nova
> Roman to them, then welcome you are to that rotten lot!
>
> I am done!
>
>
> --- On Wed, 4/15/09, billhawks@...
> <billhawks@...> wrote:
>
> From: billhawks@... <billhawks@...>
> Subject: Back Alley Insults the Virgo Maxima
> To: "Maxima Valeria Messallina" <violetphearsen@...>
> Date: Wednesday, April 15, 2009, 3:59 AM
>
> Ave, Valeria Messallina
> I thought you might like to see what they are saying about you on the
> Back Alley. I'm totally disgusted that they speak about a Vestal like
> this. I've changed my mind about joining Nova Roma.
>
>
> <<On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 3:25 PM, <QFabiusMaxmi@...> wrote:
>
> "It is my belief that Vesta and the other Gods and Goddesses of Rome
> are severely displeased that anyone should resort to the use of legal
> force to press his will upon Nova Roma. It sets a dangerous precedent.
> I beg all those involved in this decision to reconsider.As for Sulla,
> his words are tarnished by his actions.
> So say I, Maxima Valeria Messallina, Sacerdos Vestalis of Nova Roma."
>
> OOOH The Virgo Maxima is pissed at Cornelius. Somebody inform this
> idiot there wouldn't a NR for the sacred flame to be relight without
> L. Cornelius Sulla's efforts. See what I mean by sycophants?
>
> BTW, even though I'm not an member of College of Augurs I still have
> the skill. In L.A. today it is rainy and gloomy. I set my Templum,
> on the roof top of my garage, the highest point on my property at 1:00
> and asked Iuppiter Optimus Maximus "Should Lucius Cornelius Sulla
> Felix be returned to New Rome as a Senator," and the sun broke through
> briefly at 1:05 PM PST, and the clouds closed in again at 1:07.
>
> I take this to mean Iuppiter approved and Sulla is favored now of
> Apollo!
>
> Fabius>>
>
>
> --- In BackAlley@yahoogroups.com, Robert Woolwine
> <robert.woolwine@...> wrote:
> Re: [BackAlley] The Virgo Maxima is unhappy
>
> Shit these pissants are lucky I accepted the compromise and did not
> sue the organization and file liens on all the board members - which
> would have been done immediately after the subpoena duces tecum
> (subponea to produce documents)
>
> There are lessons to be learned - Never get involved in a land war in
> Asia
> the next rule is don't fuck with the Jews!>>
>
>
> <<On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 3:15 AM, Diana Octavia Aventina
> <roman.babe@...> wrote:
>
> She just needs to get laid.>>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From Robert Woolwine <robert.woolwine@...>
> To: BackAlley@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2009 6:52:26 PM
> Subject: Re: [BackAlley] The Virgo Maxima is unhappy
>
>
> ROFL...umm.. .wouldn't that be a bad thing? Maybe she could hook up
> for some
> lesbo action? That is acceptable right?>>
>
>
> <<On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 5:22 AM, Diana Octavia Aventina
> <roman.babe@...> wrote:
>
> Not if the Virgo Maxima and her female partner use one of those double
> headed dildos.>>
>
>
> <<--- In BackAlley@yahoogroups.com, Robert Woolwine
> <robert.woolwine@...> wrote:
>
> What you're saying that would be wrong? I thought it would be
> required?>>
>
>
> *****************
> Vale
>
> Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus
>
> Princeps Senatus et Flamen Palatualis
> Civis Romanus sum
> http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Main_Page
> ************************************************
> Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
> "I'll either find a way or make one"
> ************************************************
> Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
> Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
> ************************************************
> Mons Palatinus, Clivus Victoriae
> Palatine Hill, Incline of Victoriae
>
>
>
>
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63313 From: Publius Memmius Albucius Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
 
P. MEMMIUS ALBUCIUS praetor edict nb PR 62-03 throwing intercessio on a decision taken by aedilis curulis Gn. Iulius Caesar

I, Publius Memmius Albucius, praetor, by the authority vested by the constitution, the laws and the Senate of Nova Roma, and in view of the existing rules;
 
In view of the message sent to the Senate of Nova Roma today,
a.d. XVI Kal Maias 2762 auc (Th 16th of April 2009), by Aedilis curulis Gn. Iulius Caesar (Senate "list", nb 14722), which tells especially:
 
"(..)Now that it has become clear to me that the corporation and individual members, including myself, would be at increased and increasing daily risk by the continued operation of this project, I have exercised my authority and disabled the Magna Mater Project webpage. I am not prepared to tolerate this continued exposure under Federal and US law. It matters not that we have the webpage hosted outside of the USA, any more than it would if the corporation was in Europe and the website was in the US.(..)"
 
After having verified that the web address "http://www.magnamaterproject.org/en/home.php" was in effect technically unavailable;
Considering that the personal or political ideas of any magistrate, about a project duly reassessed a few months before, by the Senate of Nova Roma, as an important project supported by the Republic, does not authorize him to try to escape her/his responsibilities who are, as aedile, to implement the project, whatever be his own opinions on it;
 
Considering that the arguments of fraud or illegality claimed by aedilis Caesar may be seen as the fact that the aedilis does not want to apply the Senatus consulta issued in 2761 auc or, at least, that he has not yet be able to take since last January all necessary measures to implement the project, and to find every appropriate means to update the Magna Mater web site, and thus correct the defaults that, according aedilis Iulius, would require an intervention and a conformity with NR Inc. incorporation local law;
 
Considering that such a behavior is a violation of the general legal rule, well known by our Ancients, which say that "Nemo auditur propriam turpitudinem allegans" ("nobody is allowed to invoke his own turpitude") ;
 
Considering that the aedilis, who himself claims the right to "administer" the project, has no other right but to just administer it, directly or through a "project leader", and that a so important decision such as the closing of the Project main web access, which is the main communication medium of the Project for Nova Roma, is clearly beyond his field of competencies, and falls into the Senate's ones;
 
Considering therefore that Aedilis curulis has exceeded his powers;
 
edict :


Article 1
The decision taken by aedilis Iulius Caesar to disable the
Magna Mater Project webpage is vetoed.

Article 2

As a consequence of the present intercessio, the Magna Mater Project web site must be reintegrated, by aedilis Gn. Iulius Caesar or under his responsibility, to its previous state.
 
Article 3
It is reminded that any delay in the application of the prescription of article 2 commits the individual responsibility of aedilis Gn. Iulius Caesar.

Article 4

Aedilis Gn. Iulius Caesar must, and every novaroman public officer is required to, as far as they are concerned, enforce the present edict, which will be published in the Tabularium Novae Romae and in Nova Roma relevant internet 'discussion' lists, as well as notified to aedilis Caesar.


Issued in Condate, Gallia, a.d. IV
a.d. XVI Kal Maias 2762 a.u.c. (Th 16th of April 2009) during the consulate of M. Curiatius Complutensis and M. Iulius Severus.
 
 
 
----------------------------------aed. cur. Iulius' integral message---------------------------------------------------
 
Cn. Iulius Caesar SPD.

Senators, we have a significant problem with the Magna Mater Project. As I have earlier indicated here I have had a team working on what best to do with the project for this year, Regardless of the Senatus Consultum passed last year setting divergent paths for this project, from the long stated aim and taking no regard for the considerable effort that has been expended in some quarters here to wordsmith this change of direction into legitimacy, I must now as the magistrate charged with its administration report the following.

Firstly, from the point that it became apparent that the goal of rebuilding the temple was not practical due to the general conditions laid down regarding the use of original material and the presence of trees imbedded in the foundations of the temple, the project not only became an outstanding failure, it also became illegal to operate it. Illegal due the requirements of Maine statutes in respect of advertising, but more importantly under Federal US law. I quote:

US Code Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 63 § 1343:

Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, transmits or causes to be transmitted by means of wire, radio, or television communication in interstate or foreign commerce, any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or sounds for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. If the violation affects a financial institution, such person shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both.

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/1343.html

As I am sure some of you will be more concerned in keeping this utter failure and now clear fraud alive, and refuse to even consider that firstly it could be criminal or secondly that anyone will care or there be consequences, let me first demonstrate why this is wire fraud. My comments against the points to prove of this offence are in brackets.

--------------------------------------------------

1. Whoever (the Senate/BoD of Nova Roma (Inc) )

2. having devised or intending to devise (the Senate/BoD authorized its creating and continuing operation)

3. any scheme or artifice (the Magna Mater Project)

4. to defraud (any prosecution would seek to prove intent to defraud primarily but have (5) as an alternative grounds to indict the Senate/BoD members and/or corporation)

5. or for obtaining money or property (money was solicited for the Magna Mater project before and after the creation of the webpage)

6. by means of false or fraudulent pretenses (this is the point to prove in the offence that this Senate/BoD is undoubtedly guilty of - we posited on the sponsorship page that we were seeking to rebuild the temple when it had been made abundantly clear to this house that this was impossible given the rules in force for reconstruction and the presence of the trees)

7. representations, or promises, (makes the claims concerning the goal of reconstruction - a false and impossible claim)

8. transmits or causes to be transmitted by means of wire, radio or television communication (the operation of the webpage across the Internet falls under this category of wire)

9. any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or sounds (the webpage)

10. for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice (the webpage is designed to promote the Magna Mater Project and solicit donations)

11. shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both

12. If the violation affects a financial institution, such person shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both. (Not applicable)

--------------------------------------------------

Senators, clearly under point 6 above knowing that the goal of rebuilding the temple could not realistically be achieved under these conditions that have existed since at the very least the Superintendent's office has had control of monuments in and outside of the Forum Romanum, this Senate/BoD sanctioned a false pretense. It was never good enough to obliquely mention on a different site, the Wiki, the problems and thus impossibility of rebuilding it. Put simply the entire webpage was constructed on a false premise and has been operating under that since it was created. The records of this House, and as I don't trust the probity and common sense of some of you, don't bother to delete them everything is saved, clearly indicate that the knowledge of this inherent inability to rebuild was well known. To solicit donations based on this is clearly, and let none of you even bother to debate this for you are merely sealing your own demise in any prosecution, a fraudulent pretense.

You all better start waking up to the fact that we can no longer live in some fantasy bubble that Nova Roma is independent of macronational legal requirements or the consequences of breaching them - as a number of us have been telling you all for a number of years, albeit a number of you have deliberately ignored this by refusing abjectly to recognize the consequences of your inaction in this respect.

As the magistrate charged this year with administering this absolute fraud, I put you all on notice early on that I would investigate it and report back to you. I have done so. Earlier while I was conducting my investigations took the precaution of placing a warning above the donation button and provided a link for prospective donors to take them to the relevant page in the Wiki. Now that it has become clear to me that the corporation and individual members, including myself, would be at increased and increasing daily risk by the continued operation of this project, I have exercised my authority and disabled the Magna Mater Project webpage. I am not prepared to tolerate this continued exposure under Federal and US law. It matters not that we have the webpage hosted outside of the USA, any more than it would if the corporation was in Europe and the website was in the US. This project, this flagrant abuse of common sense must cease operation forthwith.

I also know that some of you are laboring under the massive illusion that we can use these funds to create a reflection area or other such nonsense. Divest yourselves immediately and finally of the idea of using funds obtained under a false premise for a purpose totally unrelated to the aim stated at the time the donations were solicited. That is illegal, utterly illegal and I suggest all of you with any common sense and respect for your own personal liberty to speak up and decry any such foolhardy nonsense.

I have in my possession a CD that clearly states, in the words of the promoter of this scheme, that the purpose was to raise our profile with educational establishments. This is another nail in the coffin of this project, that should NEVER have been born in the first place. If we were to continue to raise money under what is a false pretense of rebuilding, divert that money to building a bench, waste part of it on a website promoting this falsehood, and then have the gall on video to clearly say that the ultimate purpose was to gratify the continuing desire of some here to see Nova Roma. and thus would contend any prosecutor worth his salt - themselves, be the recipient of academic validity and respect. That Senators would be the motive that would be claimed and is clearly supported by the words of Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus himself on this video. We have obtained monies under a false pretence to stroke the egos of some in this House who have exercised no probity whatsoever in spite of the increasing concerns of some of us concerning this project.

I will tell you now that I am also investigating who exactly was the recipient of monies paid out by Nova Roma Inc. for the creation of the webpage. Franciscus Apulus Caesar worked and still works I believe for the company that ostensibly created the page. I am not prepared to trust any previous investigations into this matter and will endeavor to satisfy myself as to who actually created it and who received the money, be it by way of a company, a sub-contractor or an employee who received a bonus. Put simply this was not acceptable that there was not greater distance between someone on the Senate/BoD, a one time consul, an arch proponent of this scheme and the recipient of monies for work done.

In short Senators the corporation and all those of you who have actively promoted this are up to your necks potentially in some very serious and deep waters. Do not even bother to advance the defense that no one minded, or that no one really knew or understood. You were told enough times - some of you making the disbursements and advocating for this project, and you flatly ignored those warnings. I insist that this project be terminated and all monies refunded. I also insist that no expenditure whatsoever take place from this point in respect of this. I also warn all of you that I will not hesitate to protect myself and other s in this house if there is any substantive move to counter my actions.

In order to protect the corporation by demonstrating responsibility I invite all those who have actively pursued this project with a carefree zeal and reckless abandonment of any sense of duty and probity, in the face of clear evidence that reconstruction was not possible, to step down as BoD members and members of this House. In any other corporate setting this would be enforced immediately. The days of a casual disregard for the laws of the land - not our insignificant by-laws, but real law, ended a long time ago. The amount of the money involved is irrelevant too.

We are in an election time for my long awaited and over due colleague. Whoever that is, they better be aware that I will expect them to fall in line with the necessary steps to protect the corporation and any more investors from being duped. I will not tolerate the grandstanding that goes on over this wretched scheme from my colleague. Two of the candidates I know I can rely on to support me. I expect all other officers of the corporation to fall in step on this one, and save any spluttering about who is superior to who, or someone's dignitas. This is a matter of potential criminal liability and personal liberty and corporate survival. Those of you who the other two candidates may listen to, make them aware of the seriousness of the situation.

Finally, just to hone your interest I am investigating a report that a potential donor has already made a complaint to as yet unidentified US Department of Justice concerning wire fraud. Regardless of whether this turns out to be substantive - it is now time to start behaving with serious intent on this matter.

Govern yourselves accordingly.

Optime valete

Gnaeus Iulius Caesar
Aedilis Curulis




Vous voulez savoir ce que vous pouvez faire avec le nouveau Windows Live ? Lancez-vous !
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63314 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
I ask the tribuni, especially T. Aquila, to impose intercessio on this
intercessio. Allowing this to stand can endanger the whole of Nova Roma. Why
not just hold off until we can figure out what's going on?

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Publius Memmius Albucius" <albucius_aoe@...>
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 3:45 PM
To: <senatusromanus@yahoogroups.com>; "Gnaeus Iulius Caesar"
<gnaeus.iulius.caesar@...>
Cc: <nova-roma@yahoogroups.com>; <novaroma-announce@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Nova-Roma] MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO

>
>
>
> P. MEMMIUS ALBUCIUS praetor edict nb PR 62-03 throwing intercessio on a
> decision taken by aedilis curulis Gn. Iulius Caesar
>
>
> I, Publius Memmius Albucius, praetor, by the authority vested by the
> constitution, the laws and the Senate of Nova Roma, and in view of the
> existing rules;
>
>
>
> In view of the message sent to the Senate of Nova Roma today, a.d. XVI Kal
> Maias 2762 auc (Th 16th of April 2009), by Aedilis curulis Gn. Iulius
> Caesar (Senate "list", nb 14722), which tells especially:
>
>
>
> "(..)Now that it has become clear to me that the corporation and
> individual members, including myself, would be at increased and increasing
> daily risk by the continued operation of this project, I have exercised my
> authority and disabled the Magna Mater Project webpage. I am not prepared
> to tolerate this continued exposure under Federal and US law. It matters
> not that we have the webpage hosted outside of the USA, any more than it
> would if the corporation was in Europe and the website was in the US.(..)"
>
>
>
> After having verified that the web address
> "http://www.magnamaterproject.org/en/home.php" was in effect technically
> unavailable;
>
> Considering that the personal or political ideas of any magistrate, about
> a project duly reassessed a few months before, by the Senate of Nova Roma,
> as an important project supported by the Republic, does not authorize him
> to try to escape her/his responsibilities who are, as aedile, to implement
> the project, whatever be his own opinions on it;
>
>
>
> Considering that the arguments of fraud or illegality claimed by aedilis
> Caesar may be seen as the fact that the aedilis does not want to apply the
> Senatus consulta issued in 2761 auc or, at least, that he has not yet be
> able to take since last January all necessary measures to implement the
> project, and to find every appropriate means to update the Magna Mater web
> site, and thus correct the defaults that, according aedilis Iulius, would
> require an intervention and a conformity with NR Inc. incorporation local
> law;
>
>
>
> Considering that such a behavior is a violation of the general legal rule,
> well known by our Ancients, which say that "Nemo auditur propriam
> turpitudinem allegans" ("nobody is allowed to invoke his own turpitude") ;
>
>
>
> Considering that the aedilis, who himself claims the right to "administer"
> the project, has no other right but to just administer it, directly or
> through a "project leader", and that a so important decision such as the
> closing of the Project main web access, which is the main communication
> medium of the Project for Nova Roma, is clearly beyond his field of
> competencies, and falls into the Senate's ones;
>
>
>
> Considering therefore that Aedilis curulis has exceeded his powers;
>
>
>
> edict :
>
>
>
> Article 1
>
> The decision taken by aedilis Iulius Caesar to disable the Magna Mater
> Project webpage is vetoed.
>
>
> Article 2
>
>
> As a consequence of the present intercessio, the Magna Mater Project web
> site must be reintegrated, by aedilis Gn. Iulius Caesar or under his
> responsibility, to its previous state.
>
>
>
> Article 3
>
> It is reminded that any delay in the application of the prescription of
> article 2 commits the individual responsibility of aedilis Gn. Iulius
> Caesar.
>
>
> Article 4
>
> Aedilis Gn. Iulius Caesar must, and every novaroman public officer is
> required to, as far as they are concerned, enforce the present edict,
> which will be published in the Tabularium Novae Romae and in Nova Roma
> relevant internet 'discussion' lists, as well as notified to aedilis
> Caesar.
>
>
>
> Issued in Condate, Gallia, a.d. IV a.d. XVI Kal Maias 2762 a.u.c. (Th 16th
> of April 2009) during the consulate of M. Curiatius Complutensis and M.
> Iulius Severus.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------aed. cur. Iulius' integral
> message---------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Cn. Iulius Caesar SPD.
>
> Senators, we have a significant problem with the Magna Mater Project. As I
> have earlier indicated here I have had a team working on what best to do
> with the project for this year, Regardless of the Senatus Consultum passed
> last year setting divergent paths for this project, from the long stated
> aim and taking no regard for the considerable effort that has been
> expended in some quarters here to wordsmith this change of direction into
> legitimacy, I must now as the magistrate charged with its administration
> report the following.
>
> Firstly, from the point that it became apparent that the goal of
> rebuilding the temple was not practical due to the general conditions laid
> down regarding the use of original material and the presence of trees
> imbedded in the foundations of the temple, the project not only became an
> outstanding failure, it also became illegal to operate it. Illegal due the
> requirements of Maine statutes in respect of advertising, but more
> importantly under Federal US law. I quote:
>
> US Code Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 63 § 1343:
>
> Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to
> defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or
> fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, transmits or causes to
> be transmitted by means of wire, radio, or television communication in
> interstate or foreign commerce, any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or
> sounds for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice, shall be
> fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. If
> the violation affects a financial institution, such person shall be fined
> not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both.
>
> http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/1343.html
>
> As I am sure some of you will be more concerned in keeping this utter
> failure and now clear fraud alive, and refuse to even consider that
> firstly it could be criminal or secondly that anyone will care or there be
> consequences, let me first demonstrate why this is wire fraud. My comments
> against the points to prove of this offence are in brackets.
>
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> 1. Whoever (the Senate/BoD of Nova Roma (Inc) )
>
> 2. having devised or intending to devise (the Senate/BoD authorized its
> creating and continuing operation)
>
> 3. any scheme or artifice (the Magna Mater Project)
>
> 4. to defraud (any prosecution would seek to prove intent to defraud
> primarily but have (5) as an alternative grounds to indict the Senate/BoD
> members and/or corporation)
>
> 5. or for obtaining money or property (money was solicited for the Magna
> Mater project before and after the creation of the webpage)
>
> 6. by means of false or fraudulent pretenses (this is the point to prove
> in the offence that this Senate/BoD is undoubtedly guilty of - we posited
> on the sponsorship page that we were seeking to rebuild the temple when it
> had been made abundantly clear to this house that this was impossible
> given the rules in force for reconstruction and the presence of the trees)
>
> 7. representations, or promises, (makes the claims concerning the goal of
> reconstruction - a false and impossible claim)
>
> 8. transmits or causes to be transmitted by means of wire, radio or
> television communication (the operation of the webpage across the Internet
> falls under this category of wire)
>
> 9. any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or sounds (the webpage)
>
> 10. for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice (the webpage is
> designed to promote the Magna Mater Project and solicit donations)
>
> 11. shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years,
> or both
>
> 12. If the violation affects a financial institution, such person shall be
> fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or
> both. (Not applicable)
>
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> Senators, clearly under point 6 above knowing that the goal of rebuilding
> the temple could not realistically be achieved under these conditions that
> have existed since at the very least the Superintendent's office has had
> control of monuments in and outside of the Forum Romanum, this Senate/BoD
> sanctioned a false pretense. It was never good enough to obliquely mention
> on a different site, the Wiki, the problems and thus impossibility of
> rebuilding it. Put simply the entire webpage was constructed on a false
> premise and has been operating under that since it was created. The
> records of this House, and as I don't trust the probity and common sense
> of some of you, don't bother to delete them everything is saved, clearly
> indicate that the knowledge of this inherent inability to rebuild was well
> known. To solicit donations based on this is clearly, and let none of you
> even bother to debate this for you are merely sealing your own demise in
> any prosecution, a fraudulent pretense.
>
> You all better start waking up to the fact that we can no longer live in
> some fantasy bubble that Nova Roma is independent of macronational legal
> requirements or the consequences of breaching them - as a number of us
> have been telling you all for a number of years, albeit a number of you
> have deliberately ignored this by refusing abjectly to recognize the
> consequences of your inaction in this respect.
>
> As the magistrate charged this year with administering this absolute
> fraud, I put you all on notice early on that I would investigate it and
> report back to you. I have done so. Earlier while I was conducting my
> investigations took the precaution of placing a warning above the donation
> button and provided a link for prospective donors to take them to the
> relevant page in the Wiki. Now that it has become clear to me that the
> corporation and individual members, including myself, would be at
> increased and increasing daily risk by the continued operation of this
> project, I have exercised my authority and disabled the Magna Mater
> Project webpage. I am not prepared to tolerate this continued exposure
> under Federal and US law. It matters not that we have the webpage hosted
> outside of the USA, any more than it would if the corporation was in
> Europe and the website was in the US. This project, this flagrant abuse of
> common sense must cease operation forthwith.
>
> I also know that some of you are laboring under the massive illusion that
> we can use these funds to create a reflection area or other such nonsense.
> Divest yourselves immediately and finally of the idea of using funds
> obtained under a false premise for a purpose totally unrelated to the aim
> stated at the time the donations were solicited. That is illegal, utterly
> illegal and I suggest all of you with any common sense and respect for
> your own personal liberty to speak up and decry any such foolhardy
> nonsense.
>
> I have in my possession a CD that clearly states, in the words of the
> promoter of this scheme, that the purpose was to raise our profile with
> educational establishments. This is another nail in the coffin of this
> project, that should NEVER have been born in the first place. If we were
> to continue to raise money under what is a false pretense of rebuilding,
> divert that money to building a bench, waste part of it on a website
> promoting this falsehood, and then have the gall on video to clearly say
> that the ultimate purpose was to gratify the continuing desire of some
> here to see Nova Roma. and thus would contend any prosecutor worth his
> salt - themselves, be the recipient of academic validity and respect. That
> Senators would be the motive that would be claimed and is clearly
> supported by the words of Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus himself on this
> video. We have obtained monies under a false pretence to stroke the egos
> of some in this House who have exercised no probity whatsoever in spite of
> the increasing concerns of some of us concerning this project.
>
> I will tell you now that I am also investigating who exactly was the
> recipient of monies paid out by Nova Roma Inc. for the creation of the
> webpage. Franciscus Apulus Caesar worked and still works I believe for the
> company that ostensibly created the page. I am not prepared to trust any
> previous investigations into this matter and will endeavor to satisfy
> myself as to who actually created it and who received the money, be it by
> way of a company, a sub-contractor or an employee who received a bonus.
> Put simply this was not acceptable that there was not greater distance
> between someone on the Senate/BoD, a one time consul, an arch proponent of
> this scheme and the recipient of monies for work done.
>
> In short Senators the corporation and all those of you who have actively
> promoted this are up to your necks potentially in some very serious and
> deep waters. Do not even bother to advance the defense that no one minded,
> or that no one really knew or understood. You were told enough times -
> some of you making the disbursements and advocating for this project, and
> you flatly ignored those warnings. I insist that this project be
> terminated and all monies refunded. I also insist that no expenditure
> whatsoever take place from this point in respect of this. I also warn all
> of you that I will not hesitate to protect myself and other s in this
> house if there is any substantive move to counter my actions.
>
> In order to protect the corporation by demonstrating responsibility I
> invite all those who have actively pursued this project with a carefree
> zeal and reckless abandonment of any sense of duty and probity, in the
> face of clear evidence that reconstruction was not possible, to step down
> as BoD members and members of this House. In any other corporate setting
> this would be enforced immediately. The days of a casual disregard for the
> laws of the land - not our insignificant by-laws, but real law, ended a
> long time ago. The amount of the money involved is irrelevant too.
>
> We are in an election time for my long awaited and over due colleague.
> Whoever that is, they better be aware that I will expect them to fall in
> line with the necessary steps to protect the corporation and any more
> investors from being duped. I will not tolerate the grandstanding that
> goes on over this wretched scheme from my colleague. Two of the candidates
> I know I can rely on to support me. I expect all other officers of the
> corporation to fall in step on this one, and save any spluttering about
> who is superior to who, or someone's dignitas. This is a matter of
> potential criminal liability and personal liberty and corporate survival.
> Those of you who the other two candidates may listen to, make them aware
> of the seriousness of the situation.
>
> Finally, just to hone your interest I am investigating a report that a
> potential donor has already made a complaint to as yet unidentified US
> Department of Justice concerning wire fraud. Regardless of whether this
> turns out to be substantive - it is now time to start behaving with
> serious intent on this matter.
>
> Govern yourselves accordingly.
>
> Optime valete
>
> Gnaeus Iulius Caesar
> Aedilis Curulis
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Vous voulez savoir ce que vous pouvez faire avec le nouveau Windows Live ?
> Lancez-vous !
> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/default.aspx
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63315 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Cn. Iulius Caesar SPD.

Believing as I do that an offence under US law would be committed were I to do so, I will not place myself in a position of jeopardy by reactivating the site.

You can access the site if the BoD wishes, and given the situation I suggest you all vote on it, through the offices of the citizen who currently hosts it.

My electronic fingerprints will not be the one responsible for putting it up.

Optime valete.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Publius Memmius Albucius <albucius_aoe@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> P. MEMMIUS ALBUCIUS praetor edict nb PR 62-03 throwing intercessio on a decision taken by aedilis curulis Gn. Iulius Caesar
>
>
> I, Publius Memmius Albucius, praetor, by the authority vested by the constitution, the laws and the Senate of Nova Roma, and in view of the existing rules;
>
>
>
> In view of the message sent to the Senate of Nova Roma today, a.d. XVI Kal Maias 2762 auc (Th 16th of April 2009), by Aedilis curulis Gn. Iulius Caesar (Senate "list", nb 14722), which tells especially:
>
>
>
> "(..)Now that it has become clear to me that the corporation and individual members, including myself, would be at increased and increasing daily risk by the continued operation of this project, I have exercised my authority and disabled the Magna Mater Project webpage. I am not prepared to tolerate this continued exposure under Federal and US law. It matters not that we have the webpage hosted outside of the USA, any more than it would if the corporation was in Europe and the website was in the US.(..)"
>
>
>
> After having verified that the web address "http://www.magnamaterproject.org/en/home.php" was in effect technically unavailable;
>
> Considering that the personal or political ideas of any magistrate, about a project duly reassessed a few months before, by the Senate of Nova Roma, as an important project supported by the Republic, does not authorize him to try to escape her/his responsibilities who are, as aedile, to implement the project, whatever be his own opinions on it;
>
>
>
> Considering that the arguments of fraud or illegality claimed by aedilis Caesar may be seen as the fact that the aedilis does not want to apply the Senatus consulta issued in 2761 auc or, at least, that he has not yet be able to take since last January all necessary measures to implement the project, and to find every appropriate means to update the Magna Mater web site, and thus correct the defaults that, according aedilis Iulius, would require an intervention and a conformity with NR Inc. incorporation local law;
>
>
>
> Considering that such a behavior is a violation of the general legal rule, well known by our Ancients, which say that "Nemo auditur propriam turpitudinem allegans" ("nobody is allowed to invoke his own turpitude") ;
>
>
>
> Considering that the aedilis, who himself claims the right to "administer" the project, has no other right but to just administer it, directly or through a "project leader", and that a so important decision such as the closing of the Project main web access, which is the main communication medium of the Project for Nova Roma, is clearly beyond his field of competencies, and falls into the Senate's ones;
>
>
>
> Considering therefore that Aedilis curulis has exceeded his powers;
>
>
>
> edict :
>
>
>
> Article 1
>
> The decision taken by aedilis Iulius Caesar to disable the Magna Mater Project webpage is vetoed.
>
>
> Article 2
>
>
> As a consequence of the present intercessio, the Magna Mater Project web site must be reintegrated, by aedilis Gn. Iulius Caesar or under his responsibility, to its previous state.
>
>
>
> Article 3
>
> It is reminded that any delay in the application of the prescription of article 2 commits the individual responsibility of aedilis Gn. Iulius Caesar.
>
>
> Article 4
>
> Aedilis Gn. Iulius Caesar must, and every novaroman public officer is required to, as far as they are concerned, enforce the present edict, which will be published in the Tabularium Novae Romae and in Nova Roma relevant internet 'discussion' lists, as well as notified to aedilis Caesar.
>
>
>
> Issued in Condate, Gallia, a.d. IV a.d. XVI Kal Maias 2762 a.u.c. (Th 16th of April 2009) during the consulate of M. Curiatius Complutensis and M. Iulius Severus.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------aed. cur. Iulius' integral message---------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Cn. Iulius Caesar SPD.
>
> Senators, we have a significant problem with the Magna Mater Project. As I have earlier indicated here I have had a team working on what best to do with the project for this year, Regardless of the Senatus Consultum passed last year setting divergent paths for this project, from the long stated aim and taking no regard for the considerable effort that has been expended in some quarters here to wordsmith this change of direction into legitimacy, I must now as the magistrate charged with its administration report the following.
>
> Firstly, from the point that it became apparent that the goal of rebuilding the temple was not practical due to the general conditions laid down regarding the use of original material and the presence of trees imbedded in the foundations of the temple, the project not only became an outstanding failure, it also became illegal to operate it. Illegal due the requirements of Maine statutes in respect of advertising, but more importantly under Federal US law. I quote:
>
> US Code Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 63 § 1343:
>
> Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, transmits or causes to be transmitted by means of wire, radio, or television communication in interstate or foreign commerce, any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or sounds for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. If the violation affects a financial institution, such person shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both.
>
> http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/1343.html
>
> As I am sure some of you will be more concerned in keeping this utter failure and now clear fraud alive, and refuse to even consider that firstly it could be criminal or secondly that anyone will care or there be consequences, let me first demonstrate why this is wire fraud. My comments against the points to prove of this offence are in brackets.
>
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> 1. Whoever (the Senate/BoD of Nova Roma (Inc) )
>
> 2. having devised or intending to devise (the Senate/BoD authorized its creating and continuing operation)
>
> 3. any scheme or artifice (the Magna Mater Project)
>
> 4. to defraud (any prosecution would seek to prove intent to defraud primarily but have (5) as an alternative grounds to indict the Senate/BoD members and/or corporation)
>
> 5. or for obtaining money or property (money was solicited for the Magna Mater project before and after the creation of the webpage)
>
> 6. by means of false or fraudulent pretenses (this is the point to prove in the offence that this Senate/BoD is undoubtedly guilty of - we posited on the sponsorship page that we were seeking to rebuild the temple when it had been made abundantly clear to this house that this was impossible given the rules in force for reconstruction and the presence of the trees)
>
> 7. representations, or promises, (makes the claims concerning the goal of reconstruction - a false and impossible claim)
>
> 8. transmits or causes to be transmitted by means of wire, radio or television communication (the operation of the webpage across the Internet falls under this category of wire)
>
> 9. any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or sounds (the webpage)
>
> 10. for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice (the webpage is designed to promote the Magna Mater Project and solicit donations)
>
> 11. shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both
>
> 12. If the violation affects a financial institution, such person shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both. (Not applicable)
>
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> Senators, clearly under point 6 above knowing that the goal of rebuilding the temple could not realistically be achieved under these conditions that have existed since at the very least the Superintendent's office has had control of monuments in and outside of the Forum Romanum, this Senate/BoD sanctioned a false pretense. It was never good enough to obliquely mention on a different site, the Wiki, the problems and thus impossibility of rebuilding it. Put simply the entire webpage was constructed on a false premise and has been operating under that since it was created. The records of this House, and as I don't trust the probity and common sense of some of you, don't bother to delete them everything is saved, clearly indicate that the knowledge of this inherent inability to rebuild was well known. To solicit donations based on this is clearly, and let none of you even bother to debate this for you are merely sealing your own demise in any prosecution, a fraudulent pretense.
>
> You all better start waking up to the fact that we can no longer live in some fantasy bubble that Nova Roma is independent of macronational legal requirements or the consequences of breaching them - as a number of us have been telling you all for a number of years, albeit a number of you have deliberately ignored this by refusing abjectly to recognize the consequences of your inaction in this respect.
>
> As the magistrate charged this year with administering this absolute fraud, I put you all on notice early on that I would investigate it and report back to you. I have done so. Earlier while I was conducting my investigations took the precaution of placing a warning above the donation button and provided a link for prospective donors to take them to the relevant page in the Wiki. Now that it has become clear to me that the corporation and individual members, including myself, would be at increased and increasing daily risk by the continued operation of this project, I have exercised my authority and disabled the Magna Mater Project webpage. I am not prepared to tolerate this continued exposure under Federal and US law. It matters not that we have the webpage hosted outside of the USA, any more than it would if the corporation was in Europe and the website was in the US. This project, this flagrant abuse of common sense must cease operation forthwith.
>
> I also know that some of you are laboring under the massive illusion that we can use these funds to create a reflection area or other such nonsense. Divest yourselves immediately and finally of the idea of using funds obtained under a false premise for a purpose totally unrelated to the aim stated at the time the donations were solicited. That is illegal, utterly illegal and I suggest all of you with any common sense and respect for your own personal liberty to speak up and decry any such foolhardy nonsense.
>
> I have in my possession a CD that clearly states, in the words of the promoter of this scheme, that the purpose was to raise our profile with educational establishments. This is another nail in the coffin of this project, that should NEVER have been born in the first place. If we were to continue to raise money under what is a false pretense of rebuilding, divert that money to building a bench, waste part of it on a website promoting this falsehood, and then have the gall on video to clearly say that the ultimate purpose was to gratify the continuing desire of some here to see Nova Roma. and thus would contend any prosecutor worth his salt - themselves, be the recipient of academic validity and respect. That Senators would be the motive that would be claimed and is clearly supported by the words of Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus himself on this video. We have obtained monies under a false pretence to stroke the egos of some in this House who have exercised no probity whatsoever in spite of the increasing concerns of some of us concerning this project.
>
> I will tell you now that I am also investigating who exactly was the recipient of monies paid out by Nova Roma Inc. for the creation of the webpage. Franciscus Apulus Caesar worked and still works I believe for the company that ostensibly created the page. I am not prepared to trust any previous investigations into this matter and will endeavor to satisfy myself as to who actually created it and who received the money, be it by way of a company, a sub-contractor or an employee who received a bonus. Put simply this was not acceptable that there was not greater distance between someone on the Senate/BoD, a one time consul, an arch proponent of this scheme and the recipient of monies for work done.
>
> In short Senators the corporation and all those of you who have actively promoted this are up to your necks potentially in some very serious and deep waters. Do not even bother to advance the defense that no one minded, or that no one really knew or understood. You were told enough times - some of you making the disbursements and advocating for this project, and you flatly ignored those warnings. I insist that this project be terminated and all monies refunded. I also insist that no expenditure whatsoever take place from this point in respect of this. I also warn all of you that I will not hesitate to protect myself and other s in this house if there is any substantive move to counter my actions.
>
> In order to protect the corporation by demonstrating responsibility I invite all those who have actively pursued this project with a carefree zeal and reckless abandonment of any sense of duty and probity, in the face of clear evidence that reconstruction was not possible, to step down as BoD members and members of this House. In any other corporate setting this would be enforced immediately. The days of a casual disregard for the laws of the land - not our insignificant by-laws, but real law, ended a long time ago. The amount of the money involved is irrelevant too.
>
> We are in an election time for my long awaited and over due colleague. Whoever that is, they better be aware that I will expect them to fall in line with the necessary steps to protect the corporation and any more investors from being duped. I will not tolerate the grandstanding that goes on over this wretched scheme from my colleague. Two of the candidates I know I can rely on to support me. I expect all other officers of the corporation to fall in step on this one, and save any spluttering about who is superior to who, or someone's dignitas. This is a matter of potential criminal liability and personal liberty and corporate survival. Those of you who the other two candidates may listen to, make them aware of the seriousness of the situation.
>
> Finally, just to hone your interest I am investigating a report that a potential donor has already made a complaint to as yet unidentified US Department of Justice concerning wire fraud. Regardless of whether this turns out to be substantive - it is now time to start behaving with serious intent on this matter.
>
> Govern yourselves accordingly.
>
> Optime valete
>
> Gnaeus Iulius Caesar
> Aedilis Curulis
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Vous voulez savoir ce que vous pouvez faire avec le nouveau Windows Live ? Lancez-vous !
> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/default.aspx
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63316 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Ave,

It is a sacred cow of Caeso Fabius and others. Who cares if there is a pending Department of Justice investigation for wire fraud? US law be damned! NR needs your money.

Vale,

Sulla

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Q. Valerius Poplicola" <q.valerius.poplicola@...> wrote:
>
> I ask the tribuni, especially T. Aquila, to impose intercessio on this
> intercessio. Allowing this to stand can endanger the whole of Nova Roma. Why
> not just hold off until we can figure out what's going on?
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Publius Memmius Albucius" <albucius_aoe@...>
> Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 3:45 PM
> To: <senatusromanus@yahoogroups.com>; "Gnaeus Iulius Caesar"
> <gnaeus.iulius.caesar@...>
> Cc: <nova-roma@yahoogroups.com>; <novaroma-announce@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
>
> >
> >
> >
> > P. MEMMIUS ALBUCIUS praetor edict nb PR 62-03 throwing intercessio on a
> > decision taken by aedilis curulis Gn. Iulius Caesar
> >
> >
> > I, Publius Memmius Albucius, praetor, by the authority vested by the
> > constitution, the laws and the Senate of Nova Roma, and in view of the
> > existing rules;
> >
> >
> >
> > In view of the message sent to the Senate of Nova Roma today, a.d. XVI Kal
> > Maias 2762 auc (Th 16th of April 2009), by Aedilis curulis Gn. Iulius
> > Caesar (Senate "list", nb 14722), which tells especially:
> >
> >
> >
> > "(..)Now that it has become clear to me that the corporation and
> > individual members, including myself, would be at increased and increasing
> > daily risk by the continued operation of this project, I have exercised my
> > authority and disabled the Magna Mater Project webpage. I am not prepared
> > to tolerate this continued exposure under Federal and US law. It matters
> > not that we have the webpage hosted outside of the USA, any more than it
> > would if the corporation was in Europe and the website was in the US.(..)"
> >
> >
> >
> > After having verified that the web address
> > "http://www.magnamaterproject.org/en/home.php" was in effect technically
> > unavailable;
> >
> > Considering that the personal or political ideas of any magistrate, about
> > a project duly reassessed a few months before, by the Senate of Nova Roma,
> > as an important project supported by the Republic, does not authorize him
> > to try to escape her/his responsibilities who are, as aedile, to implement
> > the project, whatever be his own opinions on it;
> >
> >
> >
> > Considering that the arguments of fraud or illegality claimed by aedilis
> > Caesar may be seen as the fact that the aedilis does not want to apply the
> > Senatus consulta issued in 2761 auc or, at least, that he has not yet be
> > able to take since last January all necessary measures to implement the
> > project, and to find every appropriate means to update the Magna Mater web
> > site, and thus correct the defaults that, according aedilis Iulius, would
> > require an intervention and a conformity with NR Inc. incorporation local
> > law;
> >
> >
> >
> > Considering that such a behavior is a violation of the general legal rule,
> > well known by our Ancients, which say that "Nemo auditur propriam
> > turpitudinem allegans" ("nobody is allowed to invoke his own turpitude") ;
> >
> >
> >
> > Considering that the aedilis, who himself claims the right to "administer"
> > the project, has no other right but to just administer it, directly or
> > through a "project leader", and that a so important decision such as the
> > closing of the Project main web access, which is the main communication
> > medium of the Project for Nova Roma, is clearly beyond his field of
> > competencies, and falls into the Senate's ones;
> >
> >
> >
> > Considering therefore that Aedilis curulis has exceeded his powers;
> >
> >
> >
> > edict :
> >
> >
> >
> > Article 1
> >
> > The decision taken by aedilis Iulius Caesar to disable the Magna Mater
> > Project webpage is vetoed.
> >
> >
> > Article 2
> >
> >
> > As a consequence of the present intercessio, the Magna Mater Project web
> > site must be reintegrated, by aedilis Gn. Iulius Caesar or under his
> > responsibility, to its previous state.
> >
> >
> >
> > Article 3
> >
> > It is reminded that any delay in the application of the prescription of
> > article 2 commits the individual responsibility of aedilis Gn. Iulius
> > Caesar.
> >
> >
> > Article 4
> >
> > Aedilis Gn. Iulius Caesar must, and every novaroman public officer is
> > required to, as far as they are concerned, enforce the present edict,
> > which will be published in the Tabularium Novae Romae and in Nova Roma
> > relevant internet 'discussion' lists, as well as notified to aedilis
> > Caesar.
> >
> >
> >
> > Issued in Condate, Gallia, a.d. IV a.d. XVI Kal Maias 2762 a.u.c. (Th 16th
> > of April 2009) during the consulate of M. Curiatius Complutensis and M.
> > Iulius Severus.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------aed. cur. Iulius' integral
> > message---------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> > Cn. Iulius Caesar SPD.
> >
> > Senators, we have a significant problem with the Magna Mater Project. As I
> > have earlier indicated here I have had a team working on what best to do
> > with the project for this year, Regardless of the Senatus Consultum passed
> > last year setting divergent paths for this project, from the long stated
> > aim and taking no regard for the considerable effort that has been
> > expended in some quarters here to wordsmith this change of direction into
> > legitimacy, I must now as the magistrate charged with its administration
> > report the following.
> >
> > Firstly, from the point that it became apparent that the goal of
> > rebuilding the temple was not practical due to the general conditions laid
> > down regarding the use of original material and the presence of trees
> > imbedded in the foundations of the temple, the project not only became an
> > outstanding failure, it also became illegal to operate it. Illegal due the
> > requirements of Maine statutes in respect of advertising, but more
> > importantly under Federal US law. I quote:
> >
> > US Code Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 63 § 1343:
> >
> > Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to
> > defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or
> > fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, transmits or causes to
> > be transmitted by means of wire, radio, or television communication in
> > interstate or foreign commerce, any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or
> > sounds for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice, shall be
> > fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. If
> > the violation affects a financial institution, such person shall be fined
> > not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both.
> >
> > http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/1343.html
> >
> > As I am sure some of you will be more concerned in keeping this utter
> > failure and now clear fraud alive, and refuse to even consider that
> > firstly it could be criminal or secondly that anyone will care or there be
> > consequences, let me first demonstrate why this is wire fraud. My comments
> > against the points to prove of this offence are in brackets.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------
> >
> > 1. Whoever (the Senate/BoD of Nova Roma (Inc) )
> >
> > 2. having devised or intending to devise (the Senate/BoD authorized its
> > creating and continuing operation)
> >
> > 3. any scheme or artifice (the Magna Mater Project)
> >
> > 4. to defraud (any prosecution would seek to prove intent to defraud
> > primarily but have (5) as an alternative grounds to indict the Senate/BoD
> > members and/or corporation)
> >
> > 5. or for obtaining money or property (money was solicited for the Magna
> > Mater project before and after the creation of the webpage)
> >
> > 6. by means of false or fraudulent pretenses (this is the point to prove
> > in the offence that this Senate/BoD is undoubtedly guilty of - we posited
> > on the sponsorship page that we were seeking to rebuild the temple when it
> > had been made abundantly clear to this house that this was impossible
> > given the rules in force for reconstruction and the presence of the trees)
> >
> > 7. representations, or promises, (makes the claims concerning the goal of
> > reconstruction - a false and impossible claim)
> >
> > 8. transmits or causes to be transmitted by means of wire, radio or
> > television communication (the operation of the webpage across the Internet
> > falls under this category of wire)
> >
> > 9. any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or sounds (the webpage)
> >
> > 10. for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice (the webpage is
> > designed to promote the Magna Mater Project and solicit donations)
> >
> > 11. shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years,
> > or both
> >
> > 12. If the violation affects a financial institution, such person shall be
> > fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or
> > both. (Not applicable)
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Senators, clearly under point 6 above knowing that the goal of rebuilding
> > the temple could not realistically be achieved under these conditions that
> > have existed since at the very least the Superintendent's office has had
> > control of monuments in and outside of the Forum Romanum, this Senate/BoD
> > sanctioned a false pretense. It was never good enough to obliquely mention
> > on a different site, the Wiki, the problems and thus impossibility of
> > rebuilding it. Put simply the entire webpage was constructed on a false
> > premise and has been operating under that since it was created. The
> > records of this House, and as I don't trust the probity and common sense
> > of some of you, don't bother to delete them everything is saved, clearly
> > indicate that the knowledge of this inherent inability to rebuild was well
> > known. To solicit donations based on this is clearly, and let none of you
> > even bother to debate this for you are merely sealing your own demise in
> > any prosecution, a fraudulent pretense.
> >
> > You all better start waking up to the fact that we can no longer live in
> > some fantasy bubble that Nova Roma is independent of macronational legal
> > requirements or the consequences of breaching them - as a number of us
> > have been telling you all for a number of years, albeit a number of you
> > have deliberately ignored this by refusing abjectly to recognize the
> > consequences of your inaction in this respect.
> >
> > As the magistrate charged this year with administering this absolute
> > fraud, I put you all on notice early on that I would investigate it and
> > report back to you. I have done so. Earlier while I was conducting my
> > investigations took the precaution of placing a warning above the donation
> > button and provided a link for prospective donors to take them to the
> > relevant page in the Wiki. Now that it has become clear to me that the
> > corporation and individual members, including myself, would be at
> > increased and increasing daily risk by the continued operation of this
> > project, I have exercised my authority and disabled the Magna Mater
> > Project webpage. I am not prepared to tolerate this continued exposure
> > under Federal and US law. It matters not that we have the webpage hosted
> > outside of the USA, any more than it would if the corporation was in
> > Europe and the website was in the US. This project, this flagrant abuse of
> > common sense must cease operation forthwith.
> >
> > I also know that some of you are laboring under the massive illusion that
> > we can use these funds to create a reflection area or other such nonsense.
> > Divest yourselves immediately and finally of the idea of using funds
> > obtained under a false premise for a purpose totally unrelated to the aim
> > stated at the time the donations were solicited. That is illegal, utterly
> > illegal and I suggest all of you with any common sense and respect for
> > your own personal liberty to speak up and decry any such foolhardy
> > nonsense.
> >
> > I have in my possession a CD that clearly states, in the words of the
> > promoter of this scheme, that the purpose was to raise our profile with
> > educational establishments. This is another nail in the coffin of this
> > project, that should NEVER have been born in the first place. If we were
> > to continue to raise money under what is a false pretense of rebuilding,
> > divert that money to building a bench, waste part of it on a website
> > promoting this falsehood, and then have the gall on video to clearly say
> > that the ultimate purpose was to gratify the continuing desire of some
> > here to see Nova Roma. and thus would contend any prosecutor worth his
> > salt - themselves, be the recipient of academic validity and respect. That
> > Senators would be the motive that would be claimed and is clearly
> > supported by the words of Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus himself on this
> > video. We have obtained monies under a false pretence to stroke the egos
> > of some in this House who have exercised no probity whatsoever in spite of
> > the increasing concerns of some of us concerning this project.
> >
> > I will tell you now that I am also investigating who exactly was the
> > recipient of monies paid out by Nova Roma Inc. for the creation of the
> > webpage. Franciscus Apulus Caesar worked and still works I believe for the
> > company that ostensibly created the page. I am not prepared to trust any
> > previous investigations into this matter and will endeavor to satisfy
> > myself as to who actually created it and who received the money, be it by
> > way of a company, a sub-contractor or an employee who received a bonus.
> > Put simply this was not acceptable that there was not greater distance
> > between someone on the Senate/BoD, a one time consul, an arch proponent of
> > this scheme and the recipient of monies for work done.
> >
> > In short Senators the corporation and all those of you who have actively
> > promoted this are up to your necks potentially in some very serious and
> > deep waters. Do not even bother to advance the defense that no one minded,
> > or that no one really knew or understood. You were told enough times -
> > some of you making the disbursements and advocating for this project, and
> > you flatly ignored those warnings. I insist that this project be
> > terminated and all monies refunded. I also insist that no expenditure
> > whatsoever take place from this point in respect of this. I also warn all
> > of you that I will not hesitate to protect myself and other s in this
> > house if there is any substantive move to counter my actions.
> >
> > In order to protect the corporation by demonstrating responsibility I
> > invite all those who have actively pursued this project with a carefree
> > zeal and reckless abandonment of any sense of duty and probity, in the
> > face of clear evidence that reconstruction was not possible, to step down
> > as BoD members and members of this House. In any other corporate setting
> > this would be enforced immediately. The days of a casual disregard for the
> > laws of the land - not our insignificant by-laws, but real law, ended a
> > long time ago. The amount of the money involved is irrelevant too.
> >
> > We are in an election time for my long awaited and over due colleague.
> > Whoever that is, they better be aware that I will expect them to fall in
> > line with the necessary steps to protect the corporation and any more
> > investors from being duped. I will not tolerate the grandstanding that
> > goes on over this wretched scheme from my colleague. Two of the candidates
> > I know I can rely on to support me. I expect all other officers of the
> > corporation to fall in step on this one, and save any spluttering about
> > who is superior to who, or someone's dignitas. This is a matter of
> > potential criminal liability and personal liberty and corporate survival.
> > Those of you who the other two candidates may listen to, make them aware
> > of the seriousness of the situation.
> >
> > Finally, just to hone your interest I am investigating a report that a
> > potential donor has already made a complaint to as yet unidentified US
> > Department of Justice concerning wire fraud. Regardless of whether this
> > turns out to be substantive - it is now time to start behaving with
> > serious intent on this matter.
> >
> > Govern yourselves accordingly.
> >
> > Optime valete
> >
> > Gnaeus Iulius Caesar
> > Aedilis Curulis
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Vous voulez savoir ce que vous pouvez faire avec le nouveau Windows Live ?
> > Lancez-vous !
> > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/default.aspx
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63317 From: Titus Flavius Aquila Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: AW: [Nova-Roma] MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Salvete,
 
I am not a Tribune anymore.
 
Just for the record though,I do not support this intercessio of Praetor Albucius.
 
Optime valete
Titus Flavius Aquila
Quaestor 

Von: Q. Valerius Poplicola <q.valerius.poplicola@...>
An: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Gesendet: Donnerstag, den 16. April 2009, 23:02:47 Uhr
Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO

I ask the tribuni, especially T. Aquila, to impose intercessio on this
intercessio. Allowing this to stand can endanger the whole of Nova Roma. Why
not just hold off until we can figure out what's going on?

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --
From: "Publius Memmius Albucius" <albucius_aoe@ hotmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 3:45 PM
To: <senatusromanus@ yahoogroups. com>; "Gnaeus Iulius Caesar"
<gnaeus.iulius. caesar@gmail. com>
Cc: <nova-roma@yahoogrou ps.com>; <novaroma-announce@ yahoogroups. com>
Subject: [Nova-Roma] MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO

>
>
>
> P. MEMMIUS ALBUCIUS praetor edict nb PR 62-03 throwing intercessio on a
> decision taken by aedilis curulis Gn. Iulius Caesar
>
>
> I, Publius Memmius Albucius, praetor, by the authority vested by the
> constitution, the laws and the Senate of Nova Roma, and in view of the
> existing rules;
>
>
>
> In view of the message sent to the Senate of Nova Roma today, a.d. XVI Kal
> Maias 2762 auc (Th 16th of April 2009), by Aedilis curulis Gn. Iulius
> Caesar (Senate "list", nb 14722), which tells
especially:
>
>
>
> "(..)Now that it has become clear to me that the corporation and
> individual members, including myself, would be at increased and increasing
> daily risk by the continued operation of this project, I have exercised my
> authority and disabled the Magna Mater Project webpage. I am not prepared
> to tolerate this continued exposure under Federal and US law. It matters
> not that we have the webpage hosted outside of the USA, any more than it
> would if the corporation was in Europe and the website was in the US.(..)"
>
>
>
> After having verified that the web address
> "http://www.magnamat erproject. org/en/home. php" was in effect technically
> unavailable;
>
> Considering that the personal or political ideas of any magistrate, about
> a project duly reassessed a few months before, by the Senate of Nova Roma,
> as an important project supported by the Republic, does not authorize him
> to try to escape her/his responsibilities who are, as aedile, to implement
> the project, whatever be his own opinions on it;
>
>
>
> Considering that the arguments of fraud or illegality claimed by aedilis
> Caesar may be seen as the fact that the aedilis does not want to apply the
> Senatus consulta issued in 2761 auc or, at least, that he has not yet be
> able to take since last January all necessary measures to implement the
> project, and to find every appropriate means to update the Magna Mater web
> site, and thus correct the defaults that, according aedilis Iulius, would
> require an intervention and a conformity with NR Inc. incorporation local
> law;
>
>
>
>
Considering that such a behavior is a violation of the general legal rule,
> well known by our Ancients, which say that "Nemo auditur propriam
> turpitudinem allegans" ("nobody is allowed to invoke his own turpitude") ;
>
>
>
> Considering that the aedilis, who himself claims the right to "administer"
> the project, has no other right but to just administer it, directly or
> through a "project leader", and that a so important decision such as the
> closing of the Project main web access, which is the main communication
> medium of the Project for Nova Roma, is clearly beyond his field of
> competencies, and falls into the Senate's ones;
>
>
>
> Considering therefore that Aedilis curulis has exceeded his powers;
>
>
>
> edict :
>
>
>
> Article 1
>
> The decision taken by aedilis Iulius Caesar to
disable the Magna Mater
> Project webpage is vetoed.
>
>
> Article 2
>
>
> As a consequence of the present intercessio, the Magna Mater Project web
> site must be reintegrated, by aedilis Gn. Iulius Caesar or under his
> responsibility, to its previous state.
>
>
>
> Article 3
>
> It is reminded that any delay in the application of the prescription of
> article 2 commits the individual responsibility of aedilis Gn. Iulius
> Caesar.
>
>
> Article 4
>
> Aedilis Gn. Iulius Caesar must, and every novaroman public officer is
> required to, as far as they are concerned, enforce the present edict,
> which will be published in the Tabularium Novae Romae and in Nova Roma
> relevant internet 'discussion' lists, as well as notified to aedilis
> Caesar.
>
>
>
> Issued in Condate,
Gallia, a.d. IV a.d. XVI Kal Maias 2762 a.u.c. (Th 16th
> of April 2009) during the consulate of M. Curiatius Complutensis and M.
> Iulius Severus.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------ --------- --------- ----aed. cur. Iulius' integral
> message----- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
>
>
>
> Cn. Iulius Caesar SPD.
>
> Senators, we have a significant problem with the Magna Mater Project. As I
> have earlier indicated here I have had a team working on what best to do
> with the project for this year, Regardless of the Senatus Consultum passed
> last year setting divergent paths for this project, from the long stated
> aim and taking no regard for the considerable effort that has been
> expended in some quarters here to wordsmith this change of direction into
> legitimacy, I must now as the magistrate
charged with its administration
> report the following.
>
> Firstly, from the point that it became apparent that the goal of
> rebuilding the temple was not practical due to the general conditions laid
> down regarding the use of original material and the presence of trees
> imbedded in the foundations of the temple, the project not only became an
> outstanding failure, it also became illegal to operate it. Illegal due the
> requirements of Maine statutes in respect of advertising, but more
> importantly under Federal US law. I quote:
>
> US Code Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 63 § 1343:
>
> Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to
> defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or
> fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, transmits or causes to
> be transmitted by means of wire, radio, or
television communication in
> interstate or foreign commerce, any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or
> sounds for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice, shall be
> fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. If
> the violation affects a financial institution, such person shall be fined
> not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both.
>
> http://www4. law.cornell. edu/uscode/ 18/1343.html
>
> As I am sure some of you will be more concerned in keeping this utter
> failure and now clear fraud alive, and refuse to even consider that
> firstly it could be criminal or secondly that anyone will care or there be
> consequences, let me first demonstrate why this is wire fraud. My comments
> against the points to prove of
this offence are in brackets.
>
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --
>
> 1. Whoever (the Senate/BoD of Nova Roma (Inc) )
>
> 2. having devised or intending to devise (the Senate/BoD authorized its
> creating and continuing operation)
>
> 3. any scheme or artifice (the Magna Mater Project)
>
> 4. to defraud (any prosecution would seek to prove intent to defraud
> primarily but have (5) as an alternative grounds to indict the Senate/BoD
> members and/or corporation)
>
> 5. or for obtaining money or property (money was solicited for the Magna
> Mater project before and after the creation of the webpage)
>
> 6. by means of false or fraudulent pretenses (this is the point to prove
> in the offence that this Senate/BoD is undoubtedly guilty of - we posited
> on the sponsorship page that we were seeking to rebuild
the temple when it
> had been made abundantly clear to this house that this was impossible
> given the rules in force for reconstruction and the presence of the trees)
>
> 7. representations, or promises, (makes the claims concerning the goal of
> reconstruction - a false and impossible claim)
>
> 8. transmits or causes to be transmitted by means of wire, radio or
> television communication (the operation of the webpage across the Internet
> falls under this category of wire)
>
> 9. any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or sounds (the webpage)
>
> 10. for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice (the webpage is
> designed to promote the Magna Mater Project and solicit donations)
>
> 11. shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years,
> or both
>
> 12. If the violation affects a financial institution,
such person shall be
> fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or
> both. (Not applicable)
>
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --
>
> Senators, clearly under point 6 above knowing that the goal of rebuilding
> the temple could not realistically be achieved under these conditions that
> have existed since at the very least the Superintendent' s office has had
> control of monuments in and outside of the Forum Romanum, this Senate/BoD
> sanctioned a false pretense. It was never good enough to obliquely mention
> on a different site, the Wiki, the problems and thus impossibility of
> rebuilding it. Put simply the entire webpage was constructed on a false
> premise and has been operating under that since it was created. The
> records of this House, and as I don't trust the probity and common sense
> of some
of you, don't bother to delete them everything is saved, clearly
> indicate that the knowledge of this inherent inability to rebuild was well
> known. To solicit donations based on this is clearly, and let none of you
> even bother to debate this for you are merely sealing your own demise in
> any prosecution, a fraudulent pretense.
>
> You all better start waking up to the fact that we can no longer live in
> some fantasy bubble that Nova Roma is independent of macronational legal
> requirements or the consequences of breaching them - as a number of us
> have been telling you all for a number of years, albeit a number of you
> have deliberately ignored this by refusing abjectly to recognize the
> consequences of your inaction in this respect.
>
> As the magistrate charged this year with administering this absolute
> fraud, I put you all on notice early on that
I would investigate it and
> report back to you. I have done so. Earlier while I was conducting my
> investigations took the precaution of placing a warning above the donation
> button and provided a link for prospective donors to take them to the
> relevant page in the Wiki. Now that it has become clear to me that the
> corporation and individual members, including myself, would be at
> increased and increasing daily risk by the continued operation of this
> project, I have exercised my authority and disabled the Magna Mater
> Project webpage. I am not prepared to tolerate this continued exposure
> under Federal and US law. It matters not that we have the webpage hosted
> outside of the USA, any more than it would if the corporation was in
> Europe and the website was in the US. This project, this flagrant abuse of
> common sense must cease operation
forthwith.
>
> I also know that some of you are laboring under the massive illusion that
> we can use these funds to create a reflection area or other such nonsense.
> Divest yourselves immediately and finally of the idea of using funds
> obtained under a false premise for a purpose totally unrelated to the aim
> stated at the time the donations were solicited. That is illegal, utterly
> illegal and I suggest all of you with any common sense and respect for
> your own personal liberty to speak up and decry any such foolhardy
> nonsense.
>
> I have in my possession a CD that clearly states, in the words of the
> promoter of this scheme, that the purpose was to raise our profile with
> educational establishments. This is another nail in the coffin of this
> project, that should NEVER have been born in the first place. If we were
> to continue to raise
money under what is a false pretense of rebuilding,
> divert that money to building a bench, waste part of it on a website
> promoting this falsehood, and then have the gall on video to clearly say
> that the ultimate purpose was to gratify the continuing desire of some
> here to see Nova Roma. and thus would contend any prosecutor worth his
> salt - themselves, be the recipient of academic validity and respect. That
> Senators would be the motive that would be claimed and is clearly
> supported by the words of Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus himself on this
> video. We have obtained monies under a false pretence to stroke the egos
> of some in this House who have exercised no probity whatsoever in spite of
> the increasing concerns of some of us concerning this project.
>
> I will tell you now that I am also investigating who exactly was the
> recipient of monies
paid out by Nova Roma Inc. for the creation of the
> webpage. Franciscus Apulus Caesar worked and still works I believe for the
> company that ostensibly created the page. I am not prepared to trust any
> previous investigations into this matter and will endeavor to satisfy
> myself as to who actually created it and who received the money, be it by
> way of a company, a sub-contractor or an employee who received a bonus.
> Put simply this was not acceptable that there was not greater distance
> between someone on the Senate/BoD, a one time consul, an arch proponent of
> this scheme and the recipient of monies for work done.
>
> In short Senators the corporation and all those of you who have actively
> promoted this are up to your necks potentially in some very serious and
> deep waters. Do not even bother to advance the defense that no one minded,
> or that no one
really knew or understood. You were told enough times -
> some of you making the disbursements and advocating for this project, and
> you flatly ignored those warnings. I insist that this project be
> terminated and all monies refunded. I also insist that no expenditure
> whatsoever take place from this point in respect of this. I also warn all
> of you that I will not hesitate to protect myself and other s in this
> house if there is any substantive move to counter my actions.
>
> In order to protect the corporation by demonstrating responsibility I
> invite all those who have actively pursued this project with a carefree
> zeal and reckless abandonment of any sense of duty and probity, in the
> face of clear evidence that reconstruction was not possible, to step down
> as BoD members and members of this House. In any other corporate setting
> this would be
enforced immediately. The days of a casual disregard for the
> laws of the land - not our insignificant by-laws, but real law, ended a
> long time ago. The amount of the money involved is irrelevant too.
>
> We are in an election time for my long awaited and over due colleague.
> Whoever that is, they better be aware that I will expect them to fall in
> line with the necessary steps to protect the corporation and any more
> investors from being duped. I will not tolerate the grandstanding that
> goes on over this wretched scheme from my colleague. Two of the candidates
> I know I can rely on to support me. I expect all other officers of the
> corporation to fall in step on this one, and save any spluttering about
> who is superior to who, or someone's dignitas. This is a matter of
> potential criminal liability and personal liberty and corporate survival.
> Those of
you who the other two candidates may listen to, make them aware
> of the seriousness of the situation.
>
> Finally, just to hone your interest I am investigating a report that a
> potential donor has already made a complaint to as yet unidentified US
> Department of Justice concerning wire fraud. Regardless of whether this
> turns out to be substantive - it is now time to start behaving with
> serious intent on this matter.
>
> Govern yourselves accordingly.
>
> Optime valete
>
> Gnaeus Iulius Caesar
> Aedilis Curulis
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
> Vous voulez savoir ce que vous pouvez faire avec le nouveau Windows Live ?
> Lancez-vous !
>
rel=nofollow>http://www.microsof t.com/windows/ windowslive/ default.aspx


__________________________________________________
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63318 From: L Julia Aquila Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: Re: Rome as a memory and realistic dream — your relation to the Urb
Salvé Quintiliane,

Excellent thread, and I hope more and citizens share with us how Roma lives within their hearts, mind and spirit.

I cannot tell you the moment that I felt a relationship to Rome because Rome was infused into my being from that infinitesimal spark of life called conception. It is in the blood of my ancestry, jus sanguinis. There was never a question I was Roman, and this is how my famiglia referred to themselves; Roman. In addition to paternal and maternal Italian ancestry, my very birth certificate is indicative of this authenticity; Aquila.
I grew up being proud of being Roman spending many hours listening to stories and lore of my ancestors; the maternal northern and the paternal military Roman whose bloodline incorporated that of the Roman Empire. Even though the earlier tales are probably nothing more than lore and myths handed down over time; those in addition to the family non-Christian traditions, rites and beliefs and the trips to the mother land have instilled within me a certain and profound healthy pride in being Roman.
This was evident in every part of my life. When I was 16 my father took me out to practice driving in an old Buick Electra 225, obtained just for this purpose, the biggest car I had ever driven to date. Everything was going fine, my father very proud that I was able to maneuver the car so well when suddenly a huge truck was in the right lane and I had to pass it. The driver of the huge semi was veering very close over the line and I became so frightened, my hesitancy very apparent, that I pulled over and sat in silence. We both sat in silence for a few seconds. My father calmly spoke to me, his petite and very gentle daughter, the gist of that conversation was: to be Roman is to have courage in the face of fear. With the welling threat of tears in my eyes, I pulled away from the curb, caught up with the semi and passed it without incident. Of course this was just one example and just one statement of "what it is to be Roman" as there is not one exclusive "one size fits all" description as most of us recognize.
My idea of a wonderful vacation is to wander for hours in areas of great history in Europe and GB being grateful for the opportunity to walk in my ancestors'footsteps, to lean on a building or sit on a wall as my ancestors may have done in the past. I am more than content, enthralled really, to touch a shard of clay, a coin worn bare knowing that an ancient Roman once touched this as well, a privilege I occasionally enjoyed when I was younger and participated as a mere worker on a few digs. I keep an ever growing list of potential future destinations that include many archeological sites in Eastern Europe.
Still there is nothing like Rome herself. Ambling out in the early morning when the moisture of the night is rising from the streets as the rising sun warms them weaving ethereal spirits about the statues and fountains as if Rome's past is rising in all its glory.
Tears always assault my eyes when my feet hit European Soil, esp. Italia, and esp. Rome; it is as if a powerful and unspoken magnetic force is telling me that this is my blood, this is where I belong. It gets more difficult to leave as I get older, as if my very flesh, bone, muscle and sinew are interweaved into the soil forming roots that are nourished by my blood. It gets harder to leave the older I get. My deepest innermost desire is to someday live in the foothills of the Alps or a cliff overlooking the Adriatic where I can get in a little car and motor to various destinations breathing deeply of all that was ancient Rome.

Valé

Julia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63319 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: Re: AW: [Nova-Roma] MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Oh, crap, sorry Quaestor Aquila! My thousand apologies go to you. Appius
Galerius? Flavius Aurelianus? Barbatus? Aliquis?

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Titus Flavius Aquila" <titus.aquila@...>
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 4:25 PM
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: AW: [Nova-Roma] MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO

> Salvete,
>
> I am not a Tribune anymore.
>
> Just for the record though,I do not support this intercessio of Praetor
> Albucius.
>
> Optime valete
> Titus Flavius Aquila
> Quaestor
>
>
> ________________________________
> Von: Q. Valerius Poplicola <q.valerius.poplicola@...>
> An: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Gesendet: Donnerstag, den 16. April 2009, 23:02:47 Uhr
> Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
>
>
>
>
>
> I ask the tribuni, especially T. Aquila, to impose intercessio on this
> intercessio. Allowing this to stand can endanger the whole of Nova Roma.
> Why
> not just hold off until we can figure out what's going on?
>
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --
> From: "Publius Memmius Albucius" <albucius_aoe@ hotmail.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 3:45 PM
> To: <senatusromanus@ yahoogroups. com>; "Gnaeus Iulius Caesar"
> <gnaeus.iulius. caesar@gmail. com>
> Cc: <nova-roma@yahoogrou ps.com>; <novaroma-announce@ yahoogroups. com>
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
>
>>
>>
>>
>> P. MEMMIUS ALBUCIUS praetor edict nb PR 62-03 throwing intercessio on a
>> decision taken by aedilis curulis Gn. Iulius Caesar
>>
>>
>> I, Publius Memmius Albucius, praetor, by the authority vested by the
>> constitution, the laws and the Senate of Nova Roma, and in view of the
>> existing rules;
>>
>>
>>
>> In view of the message sent to the Senate of Nova Roma today, a.d. XVI
>> Kal
>> Maias 2762 auc (Th 16th of April 2009), by Aedilis curulis Gn. Iulius
>> Caesar (Senate "list", nb 14722), which tells especially:
>>
>>
>>
>> "(..)Now that it has become clear to me that the corporation and
>> individual members, including myself, would be at increased and
>> increasing
>> daily risk by the continued operation of this project, I have exercised
>> my
>> authority and disabled the Magna Mater Project webpage. I am not prepared
>> to tolerate this continued exposure under Federal and US law. It matters
>> not that we have the webpage hosted outside of the USA, any more than it
>> would if the corporation was in Europe and the website was in the
>> US.(..)"
>>
>>
>>
>> After having verified that the web address
>> "http://www.magnamat erproject. org/en/home. php" was in effect
>> technically
>> unavailable;
>>
>> Considering that the personal or political ideas of any magistrate, about
>> a project duly reassessed a few months before, by the Senate of Nova
>> Roma,
>> as an important project supported by the Republic, does not authorize him
>> to try to escape her/his responsibilities who are, as aedile, to
>> implement
>> the project, whatever be his own opinions on it;
>>
>>
>>
>> Considering that the arguments of fraud or illegality claimed by aedilis
>> Caesar may be seen as the fact that the aedilis does not want to apply
>> the
>> Senatus consulta issued in 2761 auc or, at least, that he has not yet be
>> able to take since last January all necessary measures to implement the
>> project, and to find every appropriate means to update the Magna Mater
>> web
>> site, and thus correct the defaults that, according aedilis Iulius, would
>> require an intervention and a conformity with NR Inc. incorporation local
>> law;
>>
>>
>>
>> Considering that such a behavior is a violation of the general legal
>> rule,
>> well known by our Ancients, which say that "Nemo auditur propriam
>> turpitudinem allegans" ("nobody is allowed to invoke his own turpitude")
>> ;
>>
>>
>>
>> Considering that the aedilis, who himself claims the right to
>> "administer"
>> the project, has no other right but to just administer it, directly or
>> through a "project leader", and that a so important decision such as the
>> closing of the Project main web access, which is the main communication
>> medium of the Project for Nova Roma, is clearly beyond his field of
>> competencies, and falls into the Senate's ones;
>>
>>
>>
>> Considering therefore that Aedilis curulis has exceeded his powers;
>>
>>
>>
>> edict :
>>
>>
>>
>> Article 1
>>
>> The decision taken by aedilis Iulius Caesar to disable the Magna Mater
>> Project webpage is vetoed.
>>
>>
>> Article 2
>>
>>
>> As a consequence of the present intercessio, the Magna Mater Project web
>> site must be reintegrated, by aedilis Gn. Iulius Caesar or under his
>> responsibility, to its previous state.
>>
>>
>>
>> Article 3
>>
>> It is reminded that any delay in the application of the prescription of
>> article 2 commits the individual responsibility of aedilis Gn. Iulius
>> Caesar.
>>
>>
>> Article 4
>>
>> Aedilis Gn. Iulius Caesar must, and every novaroman public officer is
>> required to, as far as they are concerned, enforce the present edict,
>> which will be published in the Tabularium Novae Romae and in Nova Roma
>> relevant internet 'discussion' lists, as well as notified to aedilis
>> Caesar.
>>
>>
>>
>> Issued in Condate, Gallia, a.d. IV a.d. XVI Kal Maias 2762 a.u.c. (Th
>> 16th
>> of April 2009) during the consulate of M. Curiatius Complutensis and M.
>> Iulius Severus.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------ --------- --------- ----aed. cur. Iulius' integral
>> message----- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
>>
>>
>>
>> Cn. Iulius Caesar SPD.
>>
>> Senators, we have a significant problem with the Magna Mater Project. As
>> I
>> have earlier indicated here I have had a team working on what best to do
>> with the project for this year, Regardless of the Senatus Consultum
>> passed
>> last year setting divergent paths for this project, from the long stated
>> aim and taking no regard for the considerable effort that has been
>> expended in some quarters here to wordsmith this change of direction into
>> legitimacy, I must now as the magistrate charged with its administration
>> report the following.
>>
>> Firstly, from the point that it became apparent that the goal of
>> rebuilding the temple was not practical due to the general conditions
>> laid
>> down regarding the use of original material and the presence of trees
>> imbedded in the foundations of the temple, the project not only became an
>> outstanding failure, it also became illegal to operate it. Illegal due
>> the
>> requirements of Maine statutes in respect of advertising, but more
>> importantly under Federal US law. I quote:
>>
>> US Code Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 63 § 1343:
>>
>> Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to
>> defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or
>> fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, transmits or causes
>> to
>> be transmitted by means of wire, radio, or television communication in
>> interstate or foreign commerce, any writings, signs, signals, pictures,
>> or
>> sounds for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice, shall be
>> fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. If
>> the violation affects a financial institution, such person shall be fined
>> not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both.
>>
>> http://www4. law.cornell. edu/uscode/ 18/1343.html
>>
>> As I am sure some of you will be more concerned in keeping this utter
>> failure and now clear fraud alive, and refuse to even consider that
>> firstly it could be criminal or secondly that anyone will care or there
>> be
>> consequences, let me first demonstrate why this is wire fraud. My
>> comments
>> against the points to prove of this offence are in brackets.
>>
>> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --
>>
>> 1. Whoever (the Senate/BoD of Nova Roma (Inc) )
>>
>> 2. having devised or intending to devise (the Senate/BoD authorized its
>> creating and continuing operation)
>>
>> 3. any scheme or artifice (the Magna Mater Project)
>>
>> 4. to defraud (any prosecution would seek to prove intent to defraud
>> primarily but have (5) as an alternative grounds to indict the Senate/BoD
>> members and/or corporation)
>>
>> 5. or for obtaining money or property (money was solicited for the Magna
>> Mater project before and after the creation of the webpage)
>>
>> 6. by means of false or fraudulent pretenses (this is the point to prove
>> in the offence that this Senate/BoD is undoubtedly guilty of - we posited
>> on the sponsorship page that we were seeking to rebuild the temple when
>> it
>> had been made abundantly clear to this house that this was impossible
>> given the rules in force for reconstruction and the presence of the
>> trees)
>>
>> 7. representations, or promises, (makes the claims concerning the goal of
>> reconstruction - a false and impossible claim)
>>
>> 8. transmits or causes to be transmitted by means of wire, radio or
>> television communication (the operation of the webpage across the
>> Internet
>> falls under this category of wire)
>>
>> 9. any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or sounds (the webpage)
>>
>> 10. for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice (the webpage is
>> designed to promote the Magna Mater Project and solicit donations)
>>
>> 11. shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years,
>> or both
>>
>> 12. If the violation affects a financial institution, such person shall
>> be
>> fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or
>> both. (Not applicable)
>>
>> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --
>>
>> Senators, clearly under point 6 above knowing that the goal of rebuilding
>> the temple could not realistically be achieved under these conditions
>> that
>> have existed since at the very least the Superintendent' s office has had
>> control of monuments in and outside of the Forum Romanum, this Senate/BoD
>> sanctioned a false pretense. It was never good enough to obliquely
>> mention
>> on a different site, the Wiki, the problems and thus impossibility of
>> rebuilding it. Put simply the entire webpage was constructed on a false
>> premise and has been operating under that since it was created. The
>> records of this House, and as I don't trust the probity and common sense
>> of some of you, don't bother to delete them everything is saved, clearly
>> indicate that the knowledge of this inherent inability to rebuild was
>> well
>> known. To solicit donations based on this is clearly, and let none of you
>> even bother to debate this for you are merely sealing your own demise in
>> any prosecution, a fraudulent pretense.
>>
>> You all better start waking up to the fact that we can no longer live in
>> some fantasy bubble that Nova Roma is independent of macronational legal
>> requirements or the consequences of breaching them - as a number of us
>> have been telling you all for a number of years, albeit a number of you
>> have deliberately ignored this by refusing abjectly to recognize the
>> consequences of your inaction in this respect.
>>
>> As the magistrate charged this year with administering this absolute
>> fraud, I put you all on notice early on that I would investigate it and
>> report back to you. I have done so. Earlier while I was conducting my
>> investigations took the precaution of placing a warning above the
>> donation
>> button and provided a link for prospective donors to take them to the
>> relevant page in the Wiki. Now that it has become clear to me that the
>> corporation and individual members, including myself, would be at
>> increased and increasing daily risk by the continued operation of this
>> project, I have exercised my authority and disabled the Magna Mater
>> Project webpage. I am not prepared to tolerate this continued exposure
>> under Federal and US law. It matters not that we have the webpage hosted
>> outside of the USA, any more than it would if the corporation was in
>> Europe and the website was in the US. This project, this flagrant abuse
>> of
>> common sense must cease operation forthwith.
>>
>> I also know that some of you are laboring under the massive illusion that
>> we can use these funds to create a reflection area or other such
>> nonsense.
>> Divest yourselves immediately and finally of the idea of using funds
>> obtained under a false premise for a purpose totally unrelated to the aim
>> stated at the time the donations were solicited. That is illegal, utterly
>> illegal and I suggest all of you with any common sense and respect for
>> your own personal liberty to speak up and decry any such foolhardy
>> nonsense.
>>
>> I have in my possession a CD that clearly states, in the words of the
>> promoter of this scheme, that the purpose was to raise our profile with
>> educational establishments. This is another nail in the coffin of this
>> project, that should NEVER have been born in the first place. If we were
>> to continue to raise money under what is a false pretense of rebuilding,
>> divert that money to building a bench, waste part of it on a website
>> promoting this falsehood, and then have the gall on video to clearly say
>> that the ultimate purpose was to gratify the continuing desire of some
>> here to see Nova Roma. and thus would contend any prosecutor worth his
>> salt - themselves, be the recipient of academic validity and respect.
>> That
>> Senators would be the motive that would be claimed and is clearly
>> supported by the words of Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus himself on this
>> video. We have obtained monies under a false pretence to stroke the egos
>> of some in this House who have exercised no probity whatsoever in spite
>> of
>> the increasing concerns of some of us concerning this project.
>>
>> I will tell you now that I am also investigating who exactly was the
>> recipient of monies paid out by Nova Roma Inc. for the creation of the
>> webpage. Franciscus Apulus Caesar worked and still works I believe for
>> the
>> company that ostensibly created the page. I am not prepared to trust any
>> previous investigations into this matter and will endeavor to satisfy
>> myself as to who actually created it and who received the money, be it by
>> way of a company, a sub-contractor or an employee who received a bonus.
>> Put simply this was not acceptable that there was not greater distance
>> between someone on the Senate/BoD, a one time consul, an arch proponent
>> of
>> this scheme and the recipient of monies for work done.
>>
>> In short Senators the corporation and all those of you who have actively
>> promoted this are up to your necks potentially in some very serious and
>> deep waters. Do not even bother to advance the defense that no one
>> minded,
>> or that no one really knew or understood. You were told enough times -
>> some of you making the disbursements and advocating for this project, and
>> you flatly ignored those warnings. I insist that this project be
>> terminated and all monies refunded. I also insist that no expenditure
>> whatsoever take place from this point in respect of this. I also warn all
>> of you that I will not hesitate to protect myself and other s in this
>> house if there is any substantive move to counter my actions.
>>
>> In order to protect the corporation by demonstrating responsibility I
>> invite all those who have actively pursued this project with a carefree
>> zeal and reckless abandonment of any sense of duty and probity, in the
>> face of clear evidence that reconstruction was not possible, to step down
>> as BoD members and members of this House. In any other corporate setting
>> this would be enforced immediately. The days of a casual disregard for
>> the
>> laws of the land - not our insignificant by-laws, but real law, ended a
>> long time ago. The amount of the money involved is irrelevant too.
>>
>> We are in an election time for my long awaited and over due colleague.
>> Whoever that is, they better be aware that I will expect them to fall in
>> line with the necessary steps to protect the corporation and any more
>> investors from being duped. I will not tolerate the grandstanding that
>> goes on over this wretched scheme from my colleague. Two of the
>> candidates
>> I know I can rely on to support me. I expect all other officers of the
>> corporation to fall in step on this one, and save any spluttering about
>> who is superior to who, or someone's dignitas. This is a matter of
>> potential criminal liability and personal liberty and corporate survival.
>> Those of you who the other two candidates may listen to, make them aware
>> of the seriousness of the situation.
>>
>> Finally, just to hone your interest I am investigating a report that a
>> potential donor has already made a complaint to as yet unidentified US
>> Department of Justice concerning wire fraud. Regardless of whether this
>> turns out to be substantive - it is now time to start behaving with
>> serious intent on this matter.
>>
>> Govern yourselves accordingly.
>>
>> Optime valete
>>
>> Gnaeus Iulius Caesar
>> Aedilis Curulis
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
>> Vous voulez savoir ce que vous pouvez faire avec le nouveau Windows Live
>> ?
>> Lancez-vous !
>> http://www.microsof t.com/windows/ windowslive/ default.aspx
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Sie sind Spam leid? Yahoo! Mail verfügt über einen herausragenden Schutz
> gegen Massenmails.
> http://mail.yahoo.com
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63320 From: Maior Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
---M. Hortensia Quiritibus SPD.
our praetor Albucius is a lawyer, I have a u.s law degree, our Chief Financial officer, Equestria Laeca is a financial analyst with an accounting degree.
Equestria Laeca found no irregularity in the MM Fund when she reviewed our financial accounts.

So this talk of fraud by Caesar and the rest is utter nonsense by those who neither know finance nor law , only want to bring the reputation of Nova Roma down.

Quirites please ignore them and let us return to our informative Main List.
let us continue to celebrate Dea Ceres!
bene valete in pacem deorum
M. Hortensia Maior
>
> Believing as I do that an offence under US law would be committed were I to do so, I will not place myself in a position of jeopardy by reactivating the site.
>
> You can access the site if the BoD wishes, and given the situation I suggest you all vote on it, through the offices of the citizen who currently hosts it.
>
> My electronic fingerprints will not be the one responsible for putting it up.
>
> Optime valete.
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Publius Memmius Albucius <albucius_aoe@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > P. MEMMIUS ALBUCIUS praetor edict nb PR 62-03 throwing intercessio on a decision taken by aedilis curulis Gn. Iulius Caesar
> >
> >
> > I, Publius Memmius Albucius, praetor, by the authority vested by the constitution, the laws and the Senate of Nova Roma, and in view of the existing rules;
> >
> >
> >
> > In view of the message sent to the Senate of Nova Roma today, a.d. XVI Kal Maias 2762 auc (Th 16th of April 2009), by Aedilis curulis Gn. Iulius Caesar (Senate "list", nb 14722), which tells especially:
> >
> >
> >
> > "(..)Now that it has become clear to me that the corporation and individual members, including myself, would be at increased and increasing daily risk by the continued operation of this project, I have exercised my authority and disabled the Magna Mater Project webpage. I am not prepared to tolerate this continued exposure under Federal and US law. It matters not that we have the webpage hosted outside of the USA, any more than it would if the corporation was in Europe and the website was in the US.(..)"
> >
> >
> >
> > After having verified that the web address "http://www.magnamaterproject.org/en/home.php" was in effect technically unavailable;
> >
> > Considering that the personal or political ideas of any magistrate, about a project duly reassessed a few months before, by the Senate of Nova Roma, as an important project supported by the Republic, does not authorize him to try to escape her/his responsibilities who are, as aedile, to implement the project, whatever be his own opinions on it;
> >
> >
> >
> > Considering that the arguments of fraud or illegality claimed by aedilis Caesar may be seen as the fact that the aedilis does not want to apply the Senatus consulta issued in 2761 auc or, at least, that he has not yet be able to take since last January all necessary measures to implement the project, and to find every appropriate means to update the Magna Mater web site, and thus correct the defaults that, according aedilis Iulius, would require an intervention and a conformity with NR Inc. incorporation local law;
> >
> >
> >
> > Considering that such a behavior is a violation of the general legal rule, well known by our Ancients, which say that "Nemo auditur propriam turpitudinem allegans" ("nobody is allowed to invoke his own turpitude") ;
> >
> >
> >
> > Considering that the aedilis, who himself claims the right to "administer" the project, has no other right but to just administer it, directly or through a "project leader", and that a so important decision such as the closing of the Project main web access, which is the main communication medium of the Project for Nova Roma, is clearly beyond his field of competencies, and falls into the Senate's ones;
> >
> >
> >
> > Considering therefore that Aedilis curulis has exceeded his powers;
> >
> >
> >
> > edict :
> >
> >
> >
> > Article 1
> >
> > The decision taken by aedilis Iulius Caesar to disable the Magna Mater Project webpage is vetoed.
> >
> >
> > Article 2
> >
> >
> > As a consequence of the present intercessio, the Magna Mater Project web site must be reintegrated, by aedilis Gn. Iulius Caesar or under his responsibility, to its previous state.
> >
> >
> >
> > Article 3
> >
> > It is reminded that any delay in the application of the prescription of article 2 commits the individual responsibility of aedilis Gn. Iulius Caesar.
> >
> >
> > Article 4
> >
> > Aedilis Gn. Iulius Caesar must, and every novaroman public officer is required to, as far as they are concerned, enforce the present edict, which will be published in the Tabularium Novae Romae and in Nova Roma relevant internet 'discussion' lists, as well as notified to aedilis Caesar.
> >
> >
> >
> > Issued in Condate, Gallia, a.d. IV a.d. XVI Kal Maias 2762 a.u.c. (Th 16th of April 2009) during the consulate of M. Curiatius Complutensis and M. Iulius Severus.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------aed. cur. Iulius' integral message---------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> > Cn. Iulius Caesar SPD.
> >
> > Senators, we have a significant problem with the Magna Mater Project. As I have earlier indicated here I have had a team working on what best to do with the project for this year, Regardless of the Senatus Consultum passed last year setting divergent paths for this project, from the long stated aim and taking no regard for the considerable effort that has been expended in some quarters here to wordsmith this change of direction into legitimacy, I must now as the magistrate charged with its administration report the following.
> >
> > Firstly, from the point that it became apparent that the goal of rebuilding the temple was not practical due to the general conditions laid down regarding the use of original material and the presence of trees imbedded in the foundations of the temple, the project not only became an outstanding failure, it also became illegal to operate it. Illegal due the requirements of Maine statutes in respect of advertising, but more importantly under Federal US law. I quote:
> >
> > US Code Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 63 § 1343:
> >
> > Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, transmits or causes to be transmitted by means of wire, radio, or television communication in interstate or foreign commerce, any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or sounds for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. If the violation affects a financial institution, such person shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both.
> >
> > http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/1343.html
> >
> > As I am sure some of you will be more concerned in keeping this utter failure and now clear fraud alive, and refuse to even consider that firstly it could be criminal or secondly that anyone will care or there be consequences, let me first demonstrate why this is wire fraud. My comments against the points to prove of this offence are in brackets.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------
> >
> > 1. Whoever (the Senate/BoD of Nova Roma (Inc) )
> >
> > 2. having devised or intending to devise (the Senate/BoD authorized its creating and continuing operation)
> >
> > 3. any scheme or artifice (the Magna Mater Project)
> >
> > 4. to defraud (any prosecution would seek to prove intent to defraud primarily but have (5) as an alternative grounds to indict the Senate/BoD members and/or corporation)
> >
> > 5. or for obtaining money or property (money was solicited for the Magna Mater project before and after the creation of the webpage)
> >
> > 6. by means of false or fraudulent pretenses (this is the point to prove in the offence that this Senate/BoD is undoubtedly guilty of - we posited on the sponsorship page that we were seeking to rebuild the temple when it had been made abundantly clear to this house that this was impossible given the rules in force for reconstruction and the presence of the trees)
> >
> > 7. representations, or promises, (makes the claims concerning the goal of reconstruction - a false and impossible claim)
> >
> > 8. transmits or causes to be transmitted by means of wire, radio or television communication (the operation of the webpage across the Internet falls under this category of wire)
> >
> > 9. any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or sounds (the webpage)
> >
> > 10. for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice (the webpage is designed to promote the Magna Mater Project and solicit donations)
> >
> > 11. shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both
> >
> > 12. If the violation affects a financial institution, such person shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both. (Not applicable)
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Senators, clearly under point 6 above knowing that the goal of rebuilding the temple could not realistically be achieved under these conditions that have existed since at the very least the Superintendent's office has had control of monuments in and outside of the Forum Romanum, this Senate/BoD sanctioned a false pretense. It was never good enough to obliquely mention on a different site, the Wiki, the problems and thus impossibility of rebuilding it. Put simply the entire webpage was constructed on a false premise and has been operating under that since it was created. The records of this House, and as I don't trust the probity and common sense of some of you, don't bother to delete them everything is saved, clearly indicate that the knowledge of this inherent inability to rebuild was well known. To solicit donations based on this is clearly, and let none of you even bother to debate this for you are merely sealing your own demise in any prosecution, a fraudulent pretense.
> >
> > You all better start waking up to the fact that we can no longer live in some fantasy bubble that Nova Roma is independent of macronational legal requirements or the consequences of breaching them - as a number of us have been telling you all for a number of years, albeit a number of you have deliberately ignored this by refusing abjectly to recognize the consequences of your inaction in this respect.
> >
> > As the magistrate charged this year with administering this absolute fraud, I put you all on notice early on that I would investigate it and report back to you. I have done so. Earlier while I was conducting my investigations took the precaution of placing a warning above the donation button and provided a link for prospective donors to take them to the relevant page in the Wiki. Now that it has become clear to me that the corporation and individual members, including myself, would be at increased and increasing daily risk by the continued operation of this project, I have exercised my authority and disabled the Magna Mater Project webpage. I am not prepared to tolerate this continued exposure under Federal and US law. It matters not that we have the webpage hosted outside of the USA, any more than it would if the corporation was in Europe and the website was in the US. This project, this flagrant abuse of common sense must cease operation forthwith.
> >
> > I also know that some of you are laboring under the massive illusion that we can use these funds to create a reflection area or other such nonsense. Divest yourselves immediately and finally of the idea of using funds obtained under a false premise for a purpose totally unrelated to the aim stated at the time the donations were solicited. That is illegal, utterly illegal and I suggest all of you with any common sense and respect for your own personal liberty to speak up and decry any such foolhardy nonsense.
> >
> > I have in my possession a CD that clearly states, in the words of the promoter of this scheme, that the purpose was to raise our profile with educational establishments. This is another nail in the coffin of this project, that should NEVER have been born in the first place. If we were to continue to raise money under what is a false pretense of rebuilding, divert that money to building a bench, waste part of it on a website promoting this falsehood, and then have the gall on video to clearly say that the ultimate purpose was to gratify the continuing desire of some here to see Nova Roma. and thus would contend any prosecutor worth his salt - themselves, be the recipient of academic validity and respect. That Senators would be the motive that would be claimed and is clearly supported by the words of Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus himself on this video. We have obtained monies under a false pretence to stroke the egos of some in this House who have exercised no probity whatsoever in spite of the increasing concerns of some of us concerning this project.
> >
> > I will tell you now that I am also investigating who exactly was the recipient of monies paid out by Nova Roma Inc. for the creation of the webpage. Franciscus Apulus Caesar worked and still works I believe for the company that ostensibly created the page. I am not prepared to trust any previous investigations into this matter and will endeavor to satisfy myself as to who actually created it and who received the money, be it by way of a company, a sub-contractor or an employee who received a bonus. Put simply this was not acceptable that there was not greater distance between someone on the Senate/BoD, a one time consul, an arch proponent of this scheme and the recipient of monies for work done.
> >
> > In short Senators the corporation and all those of you who have actively promoted this are up to your necks potentially in some very serious and deep waters. Do not even bother to advance the defense that no one minded, or that no one really knew or understood. You were told enough times - some of you making the disbursements and advocating for this project, and you flatly ignored those warnings. I insist that this project be terminated and all monies refunded. I also insist that no expenditure whatsoever take place from this point in respect of this. I also warn all of you that I will not hesitate to protect myself and other s in this house if there is any substantive move to counter my actions.
> >
> > In order to protect the corporation by demonstrating responsibility I invite all those who have actively pursued this project with a carefree zeal and reckless abandonment of any sense of duty and probity, in the face of clear evidence that reconstruction was not possible, to step down as BoD members and members of this House. In any other corporate setting this would be enforced immediately. The days of a casual disregard for the laws of the land - not our insignificant by-laws, but real law, ended a long time ago. The amount of the money involved is irrelevant too.
> >
> > We are in an election time for my long awaited and over due colleague. Whoever that is, they better be aware that I will expect them to fall in line with the necessary steps to protect the corporation and any more investors from being duped. I will not tolerate the grandstanding that goes on over this wretched scheme from my colleague. Two of the candidates I know I can rely on to support me. I expect all other officers of the corporation to fall in step on this one, and save any spluttering about who is superior to who, or someone's dignitas. This is a matter of potential criminal liability and personal liberty and corporate survival. Those of you who the other two candidates may listen to, make them aware of the seriousness of the situation.
> >
> > Finally, just to hone your interest I am investigating a report that a potential donor has already made a complaint to as yet unidentified US Department of Justice concerning wire fraud. Regardless of whether this turns out to be substantive - it is now time to start behaving with serious intent on this matter.
> >
> > Govern yourselves accordingly.
> >
> > Optime valete
> >
> > Gnaeus Iulius Caesar
> > Aedilis Curulis
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Vous voulez savoir ce que vous pouvez faire avec le nouveau Windows Live ? Lancez-vous !
> > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/default.aspx
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63321 From: enodia2002 Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
So you are saying that you are providing legal counsel for Nova Roma?

V Rutilia




--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> ---M. Hortensia Quiritibus SPD.
> our praetor Albucius is a lawyer, I have a u.s law degree, our Chief Financial officer, Equestria Laeca is a financial analyst with an accounting degree.
> Equestria Laeca found no irregularity in the MM Fund when she reviewed our financial accounts.
>
> So this talk of fraud by Caesar and the rest is utter nonsense by those who neither know finance nor law , only want to bring the reputation of Nova Roma down.
>
> Quirites please ignore them and let us return to our informative Main List.
> let us continue to celebrate Dea Ceres!
> bene valete in pacem deorum
> M. Hortensia Maior
> >
> > Believing as I do that an offence under US law would be committed were I to do so, I will not place myself in a position of jeopardy by reactivating the site.
> >
> > You can access the site if the BoD wishes, and given the situation I suggest you all vote on it, through the offices of the citizen who currently hosts it.
> >
> > My electronic fingerprints will not be the one responsible for putting it up.
> >
> > Optime valete.
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Publius Memmius Albucius <albucius_aoe@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > P. MEMMIUS ALBUCIUS praetor edict nb PR 62-03 throwing intercessio on a decision taken by aedilis curulis Gn. Iulius Caesar
> > >
> > >
> > > I, Publius Memmius Albucius, praetor, by the authority vested by the constitution, the laws and the Senate of Nova Roma, and in view of the existing rules;
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > In view of the message sent to the Senate of Nova Roma today, a.d. XVI Kal Maias 2762 auc (Th 16th of April 2009), by Aedilis curulis Gn. Iulius Caesar (Senate "list", nb 14722), which tells especially:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "(..)Now that it has become clear to me that the corporation and individual members, including myself, would be at increased and increasing daily risk by the continued operation of this project, I have exercised my authority and disabled the Magna Mater Project webpage. I am not prepared to tolerate this continued exposure under Federal and US law. It matters not that we have the webpage hosted outside of the USA, any more than it would if the corporation was in Europe and the website was in the US.(..)"
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > After having verified that the web address "http://www.magnamaterproject.org/en/home.php" was in effect technically unavailable;
> > >
> > > Considering that the personal or political ideas of any magistrate, about a project duly reassessed a few months before, by the Senate of Nova Roma, as an important project supported by the Republic, does not authorize him to try to escape her/his responsibilities who are, as aedile, to implement the project, whatever be his own opinions on it;
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Considering that the arguments of fraud or illegality claimed by aedilis Caesar may be seen as the fact that the aedilis does not want to apply the Senatus consulta issued in 2761 auc or, at least, that he has not yet be able to take since last January all necessary measures to implement the project, and to find every appropriate means to update the Magna Mater web site, and thus correct the defaults that, according aedilis Iulius, would require an intervention and a conformity with NR Inc. incorporation local law;
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Considering that such a behavior is a violation of the general legal rule, well known by our Ancients, which say that "Nemo auditur propriam turpitudinem allegans" ("nobody is allowed to invoke his own turpitude") ;
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Considering that the aedilis, who himself claims the right to "administer" the project, has no other right but to just administer it, directly or through a "project leader", and that a so important decision such as the closing of the Project main web access, which is the main communication medium of the Project for Nova Roma, is clearly beyond his field of competencies, and falls into the Senate's ones;
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Considering therefore that Aedilis curulis has exceeded his powers;
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > edict :
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Article 1
> > >
> > > The decision taken by aedilis Iulius Caesar to disable the Magna Mater Project webpage is vetoed.
> > >
> > >
> > > Article 2
> > >
> > >
> > > As a consequence of the present intercessio, the Magna Mater Project web site must be reintegrated, by aedilis Gn. Iulius Caesar or under his responsibility, to its previous state.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Article 3
> > >
> > > It is reminded that any delay in the application of the prescription of article 2 commits the individual responsibility of aedilis Gn. Iulius Caesar.
> > >
> > >
> > > Article 4
> > >
> > > Aedilis Gn. Iulius Caesar must, and every novaroman public officer is required to, as far as they are concerned, enforce the present edict, which will be published in the Tabularium Novae Romae and in Nova Roma relevant internet 'discussion' lists, as well as notified to aedilis Caesar.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Issued in Condate, Gallia, a.d. IV a.d. XVI Kal Maias 2762 a.u.c. (Th 16th of April 2009) during the consulate of M. Curiatius Complutensis and M. Iulius Severus.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------aed. cur. Iulius' integral message---------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Cn. Iulius Caesar SPD.
> > >
> > > Senators, we have a significant problem with the Magna Mater Project. As I have earlier indicated here I have had a team working on what best to do with the project for this year, Regardless of the Senatus Consultum passed last year setting divergent paths for this project, from the long stated aim and taking no regard for the considerable effort that has been expended in some quarters here to wordsmith this change of direction into legitimacy, I must now as the magistrate charged with its administration report the following.
> > >
> > > Firstly, from the point that it became apparent that the goal of rebuilding the temple was not practical due to the general conditions laid down regarding the use of original material and the presence of trees imbedded in the foundations of the temple, the project not only became an outstanding failure, it also became illegal to operate it. Illegal due the requirements of Maine statutes in respect of advertising, but more importantly under Federal US law. I quote:
> > >
> > > US Code Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 63 § 1343:
> > >
> > > Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, transmits or causes to be transmitted by means of wire, radio, or television communication in interstate or foreign commerce, any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or sounds for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. If the violation affects a financial institution, such person shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both.
> > >
> > > http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/1343.html
> > >
> > > As I am sure some of you will be more concerned in keeping this utter failure and now clear fraud alive, and refuse to even consider that firstly it could be criminal or secondly that anyone will care or there be consequences, let me first demonstrate why this is wire fraud. My comments against the points to prove of this offence are in brackets.
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > 1. Whoever (the Senate/BoD of Nova Roma (Inc) )
> > >
> > > 2. having devised or intending to devise (the Senate/BoD authorized its creating and continuing operation)
> > >
> > > 3. any scheme or artifice (the Magna Mater Project)
> > >
> > > 4. to defraud (any prosecution would seek to prove intent to defraud primarily but have (5) as an alternative grounds to indict the Senate/BoD members and/or corporation)
> > >
> > > 5. or for obtaining money or property (money was solicited for the Magna Mater project before and after the creation of the webpage)
> > >
> > > 6. by means of false or fraudulent pretenses (this is the point to prove in the offence that this Senate/BoD is undoubtedly guilty of - we posited on the sponsorship page that we were seeking to rebuild the temple when it had been made abundantly clear to this house that this was impossible given the rules in force for reconstruction and the presence of the trees)
> > >
> > > 7. representations, or promises, (makes the claims concerning the goal of reconstruction - a false and impossible claim)
> > >
> > > 8. transmits or causes to be transmitted by means of wire, radio or television communication (the operation of the webpage across the Internet falls under this category of wire)
> > >
> > > 9. any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or sounds (the webpage)
> > >
> > > 10. for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice (the webpage is designed to promote the Magna Mater Project and solicit donations)
> > >
> > > 11. shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both
> > >
> > > 12. If the violation affects a financial institution, such person shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both. (Not applicable)
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Senators, clearly under point 6 above knowing that the goal of rebuilding the temple could not realistically be achieved under these conditions that have existed since at the very least the Superintendent's office has had control of monuments in and outside of the Forum Romanum, this Senate/BoD sanctioned a false pretense. It was never good enough to obliquely mention on a different site, the Wiki, the problems and thus impossibility of rebuilding it. Put simply the entire webpage was constructed on a false premise and has been operating under that since it was created. The records of this House, and as I don't trust the probity and common sense of some of you, don't bother to delete them everything is saved, clearly indicate that the knowledge of this inherent inability to rebuild was well known. To solicit donations based on this is clearly, and let none of you even bother to debate this for you are merely sealing your own demise in any prosecution, a fraudulent pretense.
> > >
> > > You all better start waking up to the fact that we can no longer live in some fantasy bubble that Nova Roma is independent of macronational legal requirements or the consequences of breaching them - as a number of us have been telling you all for a number of years, albeit a number of you have deliberately ignored this by refusing abjectly to recognize the consequences of your inaction in this respect.
> > >
> > > As the magistrate charged this year with administering this absolute fraud, I put you all on notice early on that I would investigate it and report back to you. I have done so. Earlier while I was conducting my investigations took the precaution of placing a warning above the donation button and provided a link for prospective donors to take them to the relevant page in the Wiki. Now that it has become clear to me that the corporation and individual members, including myself, would be at increased and increasing daily risk by the continued operation of this project, I have exercised my authority and disabled the Magna Mater Project webpage. I am not prepared to tolerate this continued exposure under Federal and US law. It matters not that we have the webpage hosted outside of the USA, any more than it would if the corporation was in Europe and the website was in the US. This project, this flagrant abuse of common sense must cease operation forthwith.
> > >
> > > I also know that some of you are laboring under the massive illusion that we can use these funds to create a reflection area or other such nonsense. Divest yourselves immediately and finally of the idea of using funds obtained under a false premise for a purpose totally unrelated to the aim stated at the time the donations were solicited. That is illegal, utterly illegal and I suggest all of you with any common sense and respect for your own personal liberty to speak up and decry any such foolhardy nonsense.
> > >
> > > I have in my possession a CD that clearly states, in the words of the promoter of this scheme, that the purpose was to raise our profile with educational establishments. This is another nail in the coffin of this project, that should NEVER have been born in the first place. If we were to continue to raise money under what is a false pretense of rebuilding, divert that money to building a bench, waste part of it on a website promoting this falsehood, and then have the gall on video to clearly say that the ultimate purpose was to gratify the continuing desire of some here to see Nova Roma. and thus would contend any prosecutor worth his salt - themselves, be the recipient of academic validity and respect. That Senators would be the motive that would be claimed and is clearly supported by the words of Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus himself on this video. We have obtained monies under a false pretence to stroke the egos of some in this House who have exercised no probity whatsoever in spite of the increasing concerns of some of us concerning this project.
> > >
> > > I will tell you now that I am also investigating who exactly was the recipient of monies paid out by Nova Roma Inc. for the creation of the webpage. Franciscus Apulus Caesar worked and still works I believe for the company that ostensibly created the page. I am not prepared to trust any previous investigations into this matter and will endeavor to satisfy myself as to who actually created it and who received the money, be it by way of a company, a sub-contractor or an employee who received a bonus. Put simply this was not acceptable that there was not greater distance between someone on the Senate/BoD, a one time consul, an arch proponent of this scheme and the recipient of monies for work done.
> > >
> > > In short Senators the corporation and all those of you who have actively promoted this are up to your necks potentially in some very serious and deep waters. Do not even bother to advance the defense that no one minded, or that no one really knew or understood. You were told enough times - some of you making the disbursements and advocating for this project, and you flatly ignored those warnings. I insist that this project be terminated and all monies refunded. I also insist that no expenditure whatsoever take place from this point in respect of this. I also warn all of you that I will not hesitate to protect myself and other s in this house if there is any substantive move to counter my actions.
> > >
> > > In order to protect the corporation by demonstrating responsibility I invite all those who have actively pursued this project with a carefree zeal and reckless abandonment of any sense of duty and probity, in the face of clear evidence that reconstruction was not possible, to step down as BoD members and members of this House. In any other corporate setting this would be enforced immediately. The days of a casual disregard for the laws of the land - not our insignificant by-laws, but real law, ended a long time ago. The amount of the money involved is irrelevant too.
> > >
> > > We are in an election time for my long awaited and over due colleague. Whoever that is, they better be aware that I will expect them to fall in line with the necessary steps to protect the corporation and any more investors from being duped. I will not tolerate the grandstanding that goes on over this wretched scheme from my colleague. Two of the candidates I know I can rely on to support me. I expect all other officers of the corporation to fall in step on this one, and save any spluttering about who is superior to who, or someone's dignitas. This is a matter of potential criminal liability and personal liberty and corporate survival. Those of you who the other two candidates may listen to, make them aware of the seriousness of the situation.
> > >
> > > Finally, just to hone your interest I am investigating a report that a potential donor has already made a complaint to as yet unidentified US Department of Justice concerning wire fraud. Regardless of whether this turns out to be substantive - it is now time to start behaving with serious intent on this matter.
> > >
> > > Govern yourselves accordingly.
> > >
> > > Optime valete
> > >
> > > Gnaeus Iulius Caesar
> > > Aedilis Curulis
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > Vous voulez savoir ce que vous pouvez faire avec le nouveau Windows Live ? Lancez-vous !
> > > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/default.aspx
> > >
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63322 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Why would you want to allow for the possibility of this killing us off? I'd
rather take my chances and exercise caution rather than keep it open and
become more liable for damages.

Don't they teach you anything in law school anymore?

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Maior" <rory12001@...>
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 5:00 PM
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO

> ---M. Hortensia Quiritibus SPD.
> our praetor Albucius is a lawyer, I have a u.s law degree, our Chief
> Financial officer, Equestria Laeca is a financial analyst with an
> accounting degree.
> Equestria Laeca found no irregularity in the MM Fund when she reviewed
> our financial accounts.
>
> So this talk of fraud by Caesar and the rest is utter nonsense by those
> who neither know finance nor law , only want to bring the reputation of
> Nova Roma down.
>
> Quirites please ignore them and let us return to our informative Main
> List.
> let us continue to celebrate Dea Ceres!
> bene valete in pacem deorum
> M. Hortensia Maior
>>
>> Believing as I do that an offence under US law would be committed were I
>> to do so, I will not place myself in a position of jeopardy by
>> reactivating the site.
>>
>> You can access the site if the BoD wishes, and given the situation I
>> suggest you all vote on it, through the offices of the citizen who
>> currently hosts it.
>>
>> My electronic fingerprints will not be the one responsible for putting it
>> up.
>>
>> Optime valete.
>>
>>
>> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Publius Memmius Albucius
>> <albucius_aoe@> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > P. MEMMIUS ALBUCIUS praetor edict nb PR 62-03 throwing intercessio on a
>> > decision taken by aedilis curulis Gn. Iulius Caesar
>> >
>> >
>> > I, Publius Memmius Albucius, praetor, by the authority vested by the
>> > constitution, the laws and the Senate of Nova Roma, and in view of the
>> > existing rules;
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > In view of the message sent to the Senate of Nova Roma today, a.d. XVI
>> > Kal Maias 2762 auc (Th 16th of April 2009), by Aedilis curulis Gn.
>> > Iulius Caesar (Senate "list", nb 14722), which tells especially:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > "(..)Now that it has become clear to me that the corporation and
>> > individual members, including myself, would be at increased and
>> > increasing daily risk by the continued operation of this project, I
>> > have exercised my authority and disabled the Magna Mater Project
>> > webpage. I am not prepared to tolerate this continued exposure under
>> > Federal and US law. It matters not that we have the webpage hosted
>> > outside of the USA, any more than it would if the corporation was in
>> > Europe and the website was in the US.(..)"
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > After having verified that the web address
>> > "http://www.magnamaterproject.org/en/home.php" was in effect
>> > technically unavailable;
>> >
>> > Considering that the personal or political ideas of any magistrate,
>> > about a project duly reassessed a few months before, by the Senate of
>> > Nova Roma, as an important project supported by the Republic, does not
>> > authorize him to try to escape her/his responsibilities who are, as
>> > aedile, to implement the project, whatever be his own opinions on it;
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Considering that the arguments of fraud or illegality claimed by
>> > aedilis Caesar may be seen as the fact that the aedilis does not want
>> > to apply the Senatus consulta issued in 2761 auc or, at least, that he
>> > has not yet be able to take since last January all necessary measures
>> > to implement the project, and to find every appropriate means to update
>> > the Magna Mater web site, and thus correct the defaults that, according
>> > aedilis Iulius, would require an intervention and a conformity with NR
>> > Inc. incorporation local law;
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Considering that such a behavior is a violation of the general legal
>> > rule, well known by our Ancients, which say that "Nemo auditur propriam
>> > turpitudinem allegans" ("nobody is allowed to invoke his own
>> > turpitude") ;
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Considering that the aedilis, who himself claims the right to
>> > "administer" the project, has no other right but to just administer it,
>> > directly or through a "project leader", and that a so important
>> > decision such as the closing of the Project main web access, which is
>> > the main communication medium of the Project for Nova Roma, is clearly
>> > beyond his field of competencies, and falls into the Senate's ones;
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Considering therefore that Aedilis curulis has exceeded his powers;
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > edict :
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Article 1
>> >
>> > The decision taken by aedilis Iulius Caesar to disable the Magna Mater
>> > Project webpage is vetoed.
>> >
>> >
>> > Article 2
>> >
>> >
>> > As a consequence of the present intercessio, the Magna Mater Project
>> > web site must be reintegrated, by aedilis Gn. Iulius Caesar or under
>> > his responsibility, to its previous state.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Article 3
>> >
>> > It is reminded that any delay in the application of the prescription of
>> > article 2 commits the individual responsibility of aedilis Gn. Iulius
>> > Caesar.
>> >
>> >
>> > Article 4
>> >
>> > Aedilis Gn. Iulius Caesar must, and every novaroman public officer is
>> > required to, as far as they are concerned, enforce the present edict,
>> > which will be published in the Tabularium Novae Romae and in Nova Roma
>> > relevant internet 'discussion' lists, as well as notified to aedilis
>> > Caesar.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Issued in Condate, Gallia, a.d. IV a.d. XVI Kal Maias 2762 a.u.c. (Th
>> > 16th of April 2009) during the consulate of M. Curiatius Complutensis
>> > and M. Iulius Severus.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ----------------------------------aed. cur. Iulius' integral
>> > message---------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Cn. Iulius Caesar SPD.
>> >
>> > Senators, we have a significant problem with the Magna Mater Project.
>> > As I have earlier indicated here I have had a team working on what best
>> > to do with the project for this year, Regardless of the Senatus
>> > Consultum passed last year setting divergent paths for this project,
>> > from the long stated aim and taking no regard for the considerable
>> > effort that has been expended in some quarters here to wordsmith this
>> > change of direction into legitimacy, I must now as the magistrate
>> > charged with its administration report the following.
>> >
>> > Firstly, from the point that it became apparent that the goal of
>> > rebuilding the temple was not practical due to the general conditions
>> > laid down regarding the use of original material and the presence of
>> > trees imbedded in the foundations of the temple, the project not only
>> > became an outstanding failure, it also became illegal to operate it.
>> > Illegal due the requirements of Maine statutes in respect of
>> > advertising, but more importantly under Federal US law. I quote:
>> >
>> > US Code Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 63 § 1343:
>> >
>> > Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice
>> > to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or
>> > fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, transmits or causes
>> > to be transmitted by means of wire, radio, or television communication
>> > in interstate or foreign commerce, any writings, signs, signals,
>> > pictures, or sounds for the purpose of executing such scheme or
>> > artifice, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than
>> > 20 years, or both. If the violation affects a financial institution,
>> > such person shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not
>> > more than 30 years, or both.
>> >
>> > http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/1343.html
>> >
>> > As I am sure some of you will be more concerned in keeping this utter
>> > failure and now clear fraud alive, and refuse to even consider that
>> > firstly it could be criminal or secondly that anyone will care or there
>> > be consequences, let me first demonstrate why this is wire fraud. My
>> > comments against the points to prove of this offence are in brackets.
>> >
>> > --------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > 1. Whoever (the Senate/BoD of Nova Roma (Inc) )
>> >
>> > 2. having devised or intending to devise (the Senate/BoD authorized its
>> > creating and continuing operation)
>> >
>> > 3. any scheme or artifice (the Magna Mater Project)
>> >
>> > 4. to defraud (any prosecution would seek to prove intent to defraud
>> > primarily but have (5) as an alternative grounds to indict the
>> > Senate/BoD members and/or corporation)
>> >
>> > 5. or for obtaining money or property (money was solicited for the
>> > Magna Mater project before and after the creation of the webpage)
>> >
>> > 6. by means of false or fraudulent pretenses (this is the point to
>> > prove in the offence that this Senate/BoD is undoubtedly guilty of - we
>> > posited on the sponsorship page that we were seeking to rebuild the
>> > temple when it had been made abundantly clear to this house that this
>> > was impossible given the rules in force for reconstruction and the
>> > presence of the trees)
>> >
>> > 7. representations, or promises, (makes the claims concerning the goal
>> > of reconstruction - a false and impossible claim)
>> >
>> > 8. transmits or causes to be transmitted by means of wire, radio or
>> > television communication (the operation of the webpage across the
>> > Internet falls under this category of wire)
>> >
>> > 9. any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or sounds (the webpage)
>> >
>> > 10. for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice (the webpage
>> > is designed to promote the Magna Mater Project and solicit donations)
>> >
>> > 11. shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20
>> > years, or both
>> >
>> > 12. If the violation affects a financial institution, such person shall
>> > be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years,
>> > or both. (Not applicable)
>> >
>> > --------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > Senators, clearly under point 6 above knowing that the goal of
>> > rebuilding the temple could not realistically be achieved under these
>> > conditions that have existed since at the very least the
>> > Superintendent's office has had control of monuments in and outside of
>> > the Forum Romanum, this Senate/BoD sanctioned a false pretense. It was
>> > never good enough to obliquely mention on a different site, the Wiki,
>> > the problems and thus impossibility of rebuilding it. Put simply the
>> > entire webpage was constructed on a false premise and has been
>> > operating under that since it was created. The records of this House,
>> > and as I don't trust the probity and common sense of some of you, don't
>> > bother to delete them everything is saved, clearly indicate that the
>> > knowledge of this inherent inability to rebuild was well known. To
>> > solicit donations based on this is clearly, and let none of you even
>> > bother to debate this for you are merely sealing your own demise in any
>> > prosecution, a fraudulent pretense.
>> >
>> > You all better start waking up to the fact that we can no longer live
>> > in some fantasy bubble that Nova Roma is independent of macronational
>> > legal requirements or the consequences of breaching them - as a number
>> > of us have been telling you all for a number of years, albeit a number
>> > of you have deliberately ignored this by refusing abjectly to recognize
>> > the consequences of your inaction in this respect.
>> >
>> > As the magistrate charged this year with administering this absolute
>> > fraud, I put you all on notice early on that I would investigate it and
>> > report back to you. I have done so. Earlier while I was conducting my
>> > investigations took the precaution of placing a warning above the
>> > donation button and provided a link for prospective donors to take them
>> > to the relevant page in the Wiki. Now that it has become clear to me
>> > that the corporation and individual members, including myself, would be
>> > at increased and increasing daily risk by the continued operation of
>> > this project, I have exercised my authority and disabled the Magna
>> > Mater Project webpage. I am not prepared to tolerate this continued
>> > exposure under Federal and US law. It matters not that we have the
>> > webpage hosted outside of the USA, any more than it would if the
>> > corporation was in Europe and the website was in the US. This project,
>> > this flagrant abuse of common sense must cease operation forthwith.
>> >
>> > I also know that some of you are laboring under the massive illusion
>> > that we can use these funds to create a reflection area or other such
>> > nonsense. Divest yourselves immediately and finally of the idea of
>> > using funds obtained under a false premise for a purpose totally
>> > unrelated to the aim stated at the time the donations were solicited.
>> > That is illegal, utterly illegal and I suggest all of you with any
>> > common sense and respect for your own personal liberty to speak up and
>> > decry any such foolhardy nonsense.
>> >
>> > I have in my possession a CD that clearly states, in the words of the
>> > promoter of this scheme, that the purpose was to raise our profile with
>> > educational establishments. This is another nail in the coffin of this
>> > project, that should NEVER have been born in the first place. If we
>> > were to continue to raise money under what is a false pretense of
>> > rebuilding, divert that money to building a bench, waste part of it on
>> > a website promoting this falsehood, and then have the gall on video to
>> > clearly say that the ultimate purpose was to gratify the continuing
>> > desire of some here to see Nova Roma. and thus would contend any
>> > prosecutor worth his salt - themselves, be the recipient of academic
>> > validity and respect. That Senators would be the motive that would be
>> > claimed and is clearly supported by the words of Caeso Fabius Buteo
>> > Quintilianus himself on this video. We have obtained monies under a
>> > false pretence to stroke the egos of some in this House who have
>> > exercised no probity whatsoever in spite of the increasing concerns of
>> > some of us concerning this project.
>> >
>> > I will tell you now that I am also investigating who exactly was the
>> > recipient of monies paid out by Nova Roma Inc. for the creation of the
>> > webpage. Franciscus Apulus Caesar worked and still works I believe for
>> > the company that ostensibly created the page. I am not prepared to
>> > trust any previous investigations into this matter and will endeavor to
>> > satisfy myself as to who actually created it and who received the
>> > money, be it by way of a company, a sub-contractor or an employee who
>> > received a bonus. Put simply this was not acceptable that there was not
>> > greater distance between someone on the Senate/BoD, a one time consul,
>> > an arch proponent of this scheme and the recipient of monies for work
>> > done.
>> >
>> > In short Senators the corporation and all those of you who have
>> > actively promoted this are up to your necks potentially in some very
>> > serious and deep waters. Do not even bother to advance the defense that
>> > no one minded, or that no one really knew or understood. You were told
>> > enough times - some of you making the disbursements and advocating for
>> > this project, and you flatly ignored those warnings. I insist that this
>> > project be terminated and all monies refunded. I also insist that no
>> > expenditure whatsoever take place from this point in respect of this. I
>> > also warn all of you that I will not hesitate to protect myself and
>> > other s in this house if there is any substantive move to counter my
>> > actions.
>> >
>> > In order to protect the corporation by demonstrating responsibility I
>> > invite all those who have actively pursued this project with a carefree
>> > zeal and reckless abandonment of any sense of duty and probity, in the
>> > face of clear evidence that reconstruction was not possible, to step
>> > down as BoD members and members of this House. In any other corporate
>> > setting this would be enforced immediately. The days of a casual
>> > disregard for the laws of the land - not our insignificant by-laws, but
>> > real law, ended a long time ago. The amount of the money involved is
>> > irrelevant too.
>> >
>> > We are in an election time for my long awaited and over due colleague.
>> > Whoever that is, they better be aware that I will expect them to fall
>> > in line with the necessary steps to protect the corporation and any
>> > more investors from being duped. I will not tolerate the grandstanding
>> > that goes on over this wretched scheme from my colleague. Two of the
>> > candidates I know I can rely on to support me. I expect all other
>> > officers of the corporation to fall in step on this one, and save any
>> > spluttering about who is superior to who, or someone's dignitas. This
>> > is a matter of potential criminal liability and personal liberty and
>> > corporate survival. Those of you who the other two candidates may
>> > listen to, make them aware of the seriousness of the situation.
>> >
>> > Finally, just to hone your interest I am investigating a report that a
>> > potential donor has already made a complaint to as yet unidentified US
>> > Department of Justice concerning wire fraud. Regardless of whether this
>> > turns out to be substantive - it is now time to start behaving with
>> > serious intent on this matter.
>> >
>> > Govern yourselves accordingly.
>> >
>> > Optime valete
>> >
>> > Gnaeus Iulius Caesar
>> > Aedilis Curulis
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _________________________________________________________________
>> > Vous voulez savoir ce que vous pouvez faire avec le nouveau Windows
>> > Live ? Lancez-vous !
>> > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/default.aspx
>> >
>>
>
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63323 From: Titus Annaeus Regulus Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
T. Annæus Regulus omnibus s.p.d.,
 
Perhaps the aedile has overstepped the bounds of his authority in this, but surely he makes a convincing argument that all of NR has overstepped the bounds of its authority as well by virtue of the MMP. I too would ask for the Tribunes to block this intercessio so that a realistic evaluation of the risks the MMP pose to NR can take place. I am a member of the aedile's cohors and while I have no involvement with the MMP, I can say that he has always shown himself to be dutiful and dedicated to NR's wellbeing. I know he would not do this as some kind of political power-play or stunt.
 
Additionally, as Praetor Albucius has thrown intercessio, I assume the magistrates hold a different view point on the MMP. If that position could be explained perhaps things would seem less ominous, as of now it seems we are in dire straits indeed. I do not question the praetor's authority to throw intercessio, nor his best intentions in doing so. I merely ask for an explanation to calm my own uneasiness, stemming in large part from this rather explosive post that has caught me, and likely others as well, completely unawares. I have browsed the site myself, and I was never under the impression that the project was not going ahead.
 
Valete

Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 6:15 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO


P. MEMMIUS ALBUCIUS praetor edict nb PR 62-03 throwing intercessio on a decision taken by aedilis curulis Gn. Iulius Caesar

I, Publius Memmius Albucius, praetor, by the authority vested by the constitution, the laws and the Senate of Nova Roma, and in view of the existing rules;
 
In view of the message sent to the Senate of Nova Roma today,
a.d. XVI Kal Maias 2762 auc (Th 16th of April 2009), by Aedilis curulis Gn. Iulius Caesar (Senate "list", nb 14722), which tells especially:
 
"(..)Now that it has become clear to me that the corporation and individual members, including myself, would be at increased and increasing daily risk by the continued operation of this project, I have exercised my authority and disabled the Magna Mater Project webpage. I am not prepared to tolerate this continued exposure under Federal and US law. It matters not that we have the webpage hosted outside of the USA, any more than it would if the corporation was in Europe and the website was in the US.(..)"
 
After having verified that the web address "http://www. magnamaterprojec t.org/en/ home.php" was in effect technically unavailable;
Considering that the personal or political ideas of any magistrate, about a project duly reassessed a few months before, by the Senate of Nova Roma, as an important project supported by the Republic, does not authorize him to try to escape her/his responsibilities who are, as aedile, to implement the project, whatever be his own opinions on it;
 
Considering that the arguments of fraud or illegality claimed by aedilis Caesar may be seen as the fact that the aedilis does not want to apply the Senatus consulta issued in 2761 auc or, at least, that he has not yet be able to take since last January all necessary measures to implement the project, and to find every appropriate means to update the Magna Mater web site, and thus correct the defaults that, according aedilis Iulius, would require an intervention and a conformity with NR Inc. incorporation local law;
 
Considering that such a behavior is a violation of the general legal rule, well known by our Ancients, which say that "Nemo auditur propriam turpitudinem allegans" ("nobody is allowed to invoke his own turpitude") ;
 
Considering that the aedilis, who himself claims the right to "administer" the project, has no other right but to just administer it, directly or through a "project leader", and that a so important decision such as the closing of the Project main web access, which is the main communication medium of the Project for Nova Roma, is clearly beyond his field of competencies, and falls into the Senate's ones;
 
Considering therefore that Aedilis curulis has exceeded his powers;
 
edict :


Article 1
The decision taken by aedilis Iulius Caesar to disable the
Magna Mater Project webpage is vetoed.

Article 2

As a consequence of the present intercessio, the Magna Mater Project web site must be reintegrated, by aedilis Gn. Iulius Caesar or under his responsibility, to its previous state.
 
Article 3
It is reminded that any delay in the application of the prescription of article 2 commits the individual responsibility of aedilis Gn. Iulius Caesar.

Article 4

Aedilis Gn. Iulius Caesar must, and every novaroman public officer is required to, as far as they are concerned, enforce the present edict, which will be published in the Tabularium Novae Romae and in Nova Roma relevant internet 'discussion' lists, as well as notified to aedilis Caesar.


Issued in Condate, Gallia, a.d. IV
a.d. XVI Kal Maias 2762 a.u.c. (Th 16th of April 2009) during the consulate of M. Curiatius Complutensis and M. Iulius Severus.
 
 
 
------------ --------- --------- ----aed. cur. Iulius' integral message----- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
 
Cn. Iulius Caesar SPD.

Senators, we have a significant problem with the Magna Mater Project. As I have earlier indicated here I have had a team working on what best to do with the project for this year, Regardless of the Senatus Consultum passed last year setting divergent paths for this project, from the long stated aim and taking no regard for the considerable effort that has been expended in some quarters here to wordsmith this change of direction into legitimacy, I must now as the magistrate charged with its administration report the following.

Firstly, from the point that it became apparent that the goal of rebuilding the temple was not practical due to the general conditions laid down regarding the use of original material and the presence of trees imbedded in the foundations of the temple, the project not only became an outstanding failure, it also became illegal to operate it. Illegal due the requirements of Maine statutes in respect of advertising, but more importantly under Federal US law. I quote:

US Code Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 63 § 1343:

Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, transmits or causes to be transmitted by means of wire, radio, or television communication in interstate or foreign commerce, any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or sounds for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. If the violation affects a financial institution, such person shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both.

http://www4. law.cornell. edu/uscode/ 18/1343.html

As I am sure some of you will be more concerned in keeping this utter failure and now clear fraud alive, and refuse to even consider that firstly it could be criminal or secondly that anyone will care or there be consequences, let me first demonstrate why this is wire fraud. My comments against the points to prove of this offence are in brackets.

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --

1. Whoever (the Senate/BoD of Nova Roma (Inc) )

2. having devised or intending to devise (the Senate/BoD authorized its creating and continuing operation)

3. any scheme or artifice (the Magna Mater Project)

4. to defraud (any prosecution would seek to prove intent to defraud primarily but have (5) as an alternative grounds to indict the Senate/BoD members and/or corporation)

5. or for obtaining money or property (money was solicited for the Magna Mater project before and after the creation of the webpage)

6. by means of false or fraudulent pretenses (this is the point to prove in the offence that this Senate/BoD is undoubtedly guilty of - we posited on the sponsorship page that we were seeking to rebuild the temple when it had been made abundantly clear to this house that this was impossible given the rules in force for reconstruction and the presence of the trees)

7. representations, or promises, (makes the claims concerning the goal of reconstruction - a false and impossible claim)

8. transmits or causes to be transmitted by means of wire, radio or television communication (the operation of the webpage across the Internet falls under this category of wire)

9. any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or sounds (the webpage)

10. for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice (the webpage is designed to promote the Magna Mater Project and solicit donations)

11. shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both

12. If the violation affects a financial institution, such person shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both. (Not applicable)

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --

Senators, clearly under point 6 above knowing that the goal of rebuilding the temple could not realistically be achieved under these conditions that have existed since at the very least the Superintendent' s office has had control of monuments in and outside of the Forum Romanum, this Senate/BoD sanctioned a false pretense. It was never good enough to obliquely mention on a different site, the Wiki, the problems and thus impossibility of rebuilding it. Put simply the entire webpage was constructed on a false premise and has been operating under that since it was created. The records of this House, and as I don't trust the probity and common sense of some of you, don't bother to delete them everything is saved, clearly indicate that the knowledge of this inherent inability to rebuild was well known. To solicit donations based on this is clearly, and let none of you even bother to debate this for you are merely sealing your own demise in any prosecution, a fraudulent pretense.

You all better start waking up to the fact that we can no longer live in some fantasy bubble that Nova Roma is independent of macronational legal requirements or the consequences of breaching them - as a number of us have been telling you all for a number of years, albeit a number of you have deliberately ignored this by refusing abjectly to recognize the consequences of your inaction in this respect.

As the magistrate charged this year with administering this absolute fraud, I put you all on notice early on that I would investigate it and report back to you. I have done so. Earlier while I was conducting my investigations took the precaution of placing a warning above the donation button and provided a link for prospective donors to take them to the relevant page in the Wiki. Now that it has become clear to me that the corporation and individual members, including myself, would be at increased and increasing daily risk by the continued operation of this project, I have exercised my authority and disabled the Magna Mater Project webpage. I am not prepared to tolerate this continued exposure under Federal and US law. It matters not that we have the webpage hosted outside of the USA, any more than it would if the corporation was in Europe and the website was in the US. This project, this flagrant abuse of common sense must cease operation forthwith.

I also know that some of you are laboring under the massive illusion that we can use these funds to create a reflection area or other such nonsense. Divest yourselves immediately and finally of the idea of using funds obtained under a false premise for a purpose totally unrelated to the aim stated at the time the donations were solicited. That is illegal, utterly illegal and I suggest all of you with any common sense and respect for your own personal liberty to speak up and decry any such foolhardy nonsense.

I have in my possession a CD that clearly states, in the words of the promoter of this scheme, that the purpose was to raise our profile with educational establishments. This is another nail in the coffin of this project, that should NEVER have been born in the first place. If we were to continue to raise money under what is a false pretense of rebuilding, divert that money to building a bench, waste part of it on a website promoting this falsehood, and then have the gall on video to clearly say that the ultimate purpose was to gratify the continuing desire of some here to see Nova Roma. and thus would contend any prosecutor worth his salt - themselves, be the recipient of academic validity and respect. That Senators would be the motive that would be claimed and is clearly supported by the words of Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus himself on this video. We have obtained monies under a false pretence to stroke the egos of some in this House who have exercised no probity whatsoever in spite of the increasing concerns of some of us concerning this project.

I will tell you now that I am also investigating who exactly was the recipient of monies paid out by Nova Roma Inc. for the creation of the webpage. Franciscus Apulus Caesar worked and still works I believe for the company that ostensibly created the page. I am not prepared to trust any previous investigations into this matter and will endeavor to satisfy myself as to who actually created it and who received the money, be it by way of a company, a sub-contractor or an employee who received a bonus. Put simply this was not acceptable that there was not greater distance between someone on the Senate/BoD, a one time consul, an arch proponent of this scheme and the recipient of monies for work done.

In short Senators the corporation and all those of you who have actively promoted this are up to your necks potentially in some very serious and deep waters. Do not even bother to advance the defense that no one minded, or that no one really knew or understood. You were told enough times - some of you making the disbursements and advocating for this project, and you flatly ignored those warnings. I insist that this project be terminated and all monies refunded. I also insist that no expenditure whatsoever take place from this point in respect of this. I also warn all of you that I will not hesitate to protect myself and other s in this house if there is any substantive move to counter my actions.

In order to protect the corporation by demonstrating responsibility I invite all those who have actively pursued this project with a carefree zeal and reckless abandonment of any sense of duty and probity, in the face of clear evidence that reconstruction was not possible, to step down as BoD members and members of this House. In any other corporate setting this would be enforced immediately. The days of a casual disregard for the laws of the land - not our insignificant by-laws, but real law, ended a long time ago. The amount of the money involved is irrelevant too.

We are in an election time for my long awaited and over due colleague. Whoever that is, they better be aware that I will expect them to fall in line with the necessary steps to protect the corporation and any more investors from being duped. I will not tolerate the grandstanding that goes on over this wretched scheme from my colleague. Two of the candidates I know I can rely on to support me. I expect all other officers of the corporation to fall in step on this one, and save any spluttering about who is superior to who, or someone's dignitas. This is a matter of potential criminal liability and personal liberty and corporate survival. Those of you who the other two candidates may listen to, make them aware of the seriousness of the situation.

Finally, just to hone your interest I am investigating a report that a potential donor has already made a complaint to as yet unidentified US Department of Justice concerning wire fraud. Regardless of whether this turns out to be substantive - it is now time to start behaving with serious intent on this matter.

Govern yourselves accordingly.

Optime valete

Gnaeus Iulius Caesar
Aedilis Curulis




Vous voulez savoir ce que vous pouvez faire avec le nouveau Windows Live ? Lancez-vous !

Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63324 From: enodia2002 Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Maior,

You have several times referenced your law degree. Where did you receive it? Are you currently practicing? The laws regarding the internet have made significant changes in the recent past.

V Rutilia




--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Q. Valerius Poplicola" <q.valerius.poplicola@...> wrote:
>
> Why would you want to allow for the possibility of this killing us off? I'd
> rather take my chances and exercise caution rather than keep it open and
> become more liable for damages.
>
> Don't they teach you anything in law school anymore?
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Maior" <rory12001@...>
> Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 5:00 PM
> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
>
> > ---M. Hortensia Quiritibus SPD.
> > our praetor Albucius is a lawyer, I have a u.s law degree, our Chief
> > Financial officer, Equestria Laeca is a financial analyst with an
> > accounting degree.
> > Equestria Laeca found no irregularity in the MM Fund when she reviewed
> > our financial accounts.
> >
> > So this talk of fraud by Caesar and the rest is utter nonsense by those
> > who neither know finance nor law , only want to bring the reputation of
> > Nova Roma down.
> >
> > Quirites please ignore them and let us return to our informative Main
> > List.
> > let us continue to celebrate Dea Ceres!
> > bene valete in pacem deorum
> > M. Hortensia Maior
> >>
> >> Believing as I do that an offence under US law would be committed were I
> >> to do so, I will not place myself in a position of jeopardy by
> >> reactivating the site.
> >>
> >> You can access the site if the BoD wishes, and given the situation I
> >> suggest you all vote on it, through the offices of the citizen who
> >> currently hosts it.
> >>
> >> My electronic fingerprints will not be the one responsible for putting it
> >> up.
> >>
> >> Optime valete.
> >>
> >>
> >> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Publius Memmius Albucius
> >> <albucius_aoe@> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > P. MEMMIUS ALBUCIUS praetor edict nb PR 62-03 throwing intercessio on a
> >> > decision taken by aedilis curulis Gn. Iulius Caesar
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > I, Publius Memmius Albucius, praetor, by the authority vested by the
> >> > constitution, the laws and the Senate of Nova Roma, and in view of the
> >> > existing rules;
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > In view of the message sent to the Senate of Nova Roma today, a.d. XVI
> >> > Kal Maias 2762 auc (Th 16th of April 2009), by Aedilis curulis Gn.
> >> > Iulius Caesar (Senate "list", nb 14722), which tells especially:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > "(..)Now that it has become clear to me that the corporation and
> >> > individual members, including myself, would be at increased and
> >> > increasing daily risk by the continued operation of this project, I
> >> > have exercised my authority and disabled the Magna Mater Project
> >> > webpage. I am not prepared to tolerate this continued exposure under
> >> > Federal and US law. It matters not that we have the webpage hosted
> >> > outside of the USA, any more than it would if the corporation was in
> >> > Europe and the website was in the US.(..)"
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > After having verified that the web address
> >> > "http://www.magnamaterproject.org/en/home.php" was in effect
> >> > technically unavailable;
> >> >
> >> > Considering that the personal or political ideas of any magistrate,
> >> > about a project duly reassessed a few months before, by the Senate of
> >> > Nova Roma, as an important project supported by the Republic, does not
> >> > authorize him to try to escape her/his responsibilities who are, as
> >> > aedile, to implement the project, whatever be his own opinions on it;
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Considering that the arguments of fraud or illegality claimed by
> >> > aedilis Caesar may be seen as the fact that the aedilis does not want
> >> > to apply the Senatus consulta issued in 2761 auc or, at least, that he
> >> > has not yet be able to take since last January all necessary measures
> >> > to implement the project, and to find every appropriate means to update
> >> > the Magna Mater web site, and thus correct the defaults that, according
> >> > aedilis Iulius, would require an intervention and a conformity with NR
> >> > Inc. incorporation local law;
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Considering that such a behavior is a violation of the general legal
> >> > rule, well known by our Ancients, which say that "Nemo auditur propriam
> >> > turpitudinem allegans" ("nobody is allowed to invoke his own
> >> > turpitude") ;
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Considering that the aedilis, who himself claims the right to
> >> > "administer" the project, has no other right but to just administer it,
> >> > directly or through a "project leader", and that a so important
> >> > decision such as the closing of the Project main web access, which is
> >> > the main communication medium of the Project for Nova Roma, is clearly
> >> > beyond his field of competencies, and falls into the Senate's ones;
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Considering therefore that Aedilis curulis has exceeded his powers;
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > edict :
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Article 1
> >> >
> >> > The decision taken by aedilis Iulius Caesar to disable the Magna Mater
> >> > Project webpage is vetoed.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Article 2
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > As a consequence of the present intercessio, the Magna Mater Project
> >> > web site must be reintegrated, by aedilis Gn. Iulius Caesar or under
> >> > his responsibility, to its previous state.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Article 3
> >> >
> >> > It is reminded that any delay in the application of the prescription of
> >> > article 2 commits the individual responsibility of aedilis Gn. Iulius
> >> > Caesar.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Article 4
> >> >
> >> > Aedilis Gn. Iulius Caesar must, and every novaroman public officer is
> >> > required to, as far as they are concerned, enforce the present edict,
> >> > which will be published in the Tabularium Novae Romae and in Nova Roma
> >> > relevant internet 'discussion' lists, as well as notified to aedilis
> >> > Caesar.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Issued in Condate, Gallia, a.d. IV a.d. XVI Kal Maias 2762 a.u.c. (Th
> >> > 16th of April 2009) during the consulate of M. Curiatius Complutensis
> >> > and M. Iulius Severus.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ----------------------------------aed. cur. Iulius' integral
> >> > message---------------------------------------------------
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Cn. Iulius Caesar SPD.
> >> >
> >> > Senators, we have a significant problem with the Magna Mater Project.
> >> > As I have earlier indicated here I have had a team working on what best
> >> > to do with the project for this year, Regardless of the Senatus
> >> > Consultum passed last year setting divergent paths for this project,
> >> > from the long stated aim and taking no regard for the considerable
> >> > effort that has been expended in some quarters here to wordsmith this
> >> > change of direction into legitimacy, I must now as the magistrate
> >> > charged with its administration report the following.
> >> >
> >> > Firstly, from the point that it became apparent that the goal of
> >> > rebuilding the temple was not practical due to the general conditions
> >> > laid down regarding the use of original material and the presence of
> >> > trees imbedded in the foundations of the temple, the project not only
> >> > became an outstanding failure, it also became illegal to operate it.
> >> > Illegal due the requirements of Maine statutes in respect of
> >> > advertising, but more importantly under Federal US law. I quote:
> >> >
> >> > US Code Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 63 § 1343:
> >> >
> >> > Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice
> >> > to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or
> >> > fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, transmits or causes
> >> > to be transmitted by means of wire, radio, or television communication
> >> > in interstate or foreign commerce, any writings, signs, signals,
> >> > pictures, or sounds for the purpose of executing such scheme or
> >> > artifice, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than
> >> > 20 years, or both. If the violation affects a financial institution,
> >> > such person shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not
> >> > more than 30 years, or both.
> >> >
> >> > http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/1343.html
> >> >
> >> > As I am sure some of you will be more concerned in keeping this utter
> >> > failure and now clear fraud alive, and refuse to even consider that
> >> > firstly it could be criminal or secondly that anyone will care or there
> >> > be consequences, let me first demonstrate why this is wire fraud. My
> >> > comments against the points to prove of this offence are in brackets.
> >> >
> >> > --------------------------------------------------
> >> >
> >> > 1. Whoever (the Senate/BoD of Nova Roma (Inc) )
> >> >
> >> > 2. having devised or intending to devise (the Senate/BoD authorized its
> >> > creating and continuing operation)
> >> >
> >> > 3. any scheme or artifice (the Magna Mater Project)
> >> >
> >> > 4. to defraud (any prosecution would seek to prove intent to defraud
> >> > primarily but have (5) as an alternative grounds to indict the
> >> > Senate/BoD members and/or corporation)
> >> >
> >> > 5. or for obtaining money or property (money was solicited for the
> >> > Magna Mater project before and after the creation of the webpage)
> >> >
> >> > 6. by means of false or fraudulent pretenses (this is the point to
> >> > prove in the offence that this Senate/BoD is undoubtedly guilty of - we
> >> > posited on the sponsorship page that we were seeking to rebuild the
> >> > temple when it had been made abundantly clear to this house that this
> >> > was impossible given the rules in force for reconstruction and the
> >> > presence of the trees)
> >> >
> >> > 7. representations, or promises, (makes the claims concerning the goal
> >> > of reconstruction - a false and impossible claim)
> >> >
> >> > 8. transmits or causes to be transmitted by means of wire, radio or
> >> > television communication (the operation of the webpage across the
> >> > Internet falls under this category of wire)
> >> >
> >> > 9. any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or sounds (the webpage)
> >> >
> >> > 10. for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice (the webpage
> >> > is designed to promote the Magna Mater Project and solicit donations)
> >> >
> >> > 11. shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20
> >> > years, or both
> >> >
> >> > 12. If the violation affects a financial institution, such person shall
> >> > be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years,
> >> > or both. (Not applicable)
> >> >
> >> > --------------------------------------------------
> >> >
> >> > Senators, clearly under point 6 above knowing that the goal of
> >> > rebuilding the temple could not realistically be achieved under these
> >> > conditions that have existed since at the very least the
> >> > Superintendent's office has had control of monuments in and outside of
> >> > the Forum Romanum, this Senate/BoD sanctioned a false pretense. It was
> >> > never good enough to obliquely mention on a different site, the Wiki,
> >> > the problems and thus impossibility of rebuilding it. Put simply the
> >> > entire webpage was constructed on a false premise and has been
> >> > operating under that since it was created. The records of this House,
> >> > and as I don't trust the probity and common sense of some of you, don't
> >> > bother to delete them everything is saved, clearly indicate that the
> >> > knowledge of this inherent inability to rebuild was well known. To
> >> > solicit donations based on this is clearly, and let none of you even
> >> > bother to debate this for you are merely sealing your own demise in any
> >> > prosecution, a fraudulent pretense.
> >> >
> >> > You all better start waking up to the fact that we can no longer live
> >> > in some fantasy bubble that Nova Roma is independent of macronational
> >> > legal requirements or the consequences of breaching them - as a number
> >> > of us have been telling you all for a number of years, albeit a number
> >> > of you have deliberately ignored this by refusing abjectly to recognize
> >> > the consequences of your inaction in this respect.
> >> >
> >> > As the magistrate charged this year with administering this absolute
> >> > fraud, I put you all on notice early on that I would investigate it and
> >> > report back to you. I have done so. Earlier while I was conducting my
> >> > investigations took the precaution of placing a warning above the
> >> > donation button and provided a link for prospective donors to take them
> >> > to the relevant page in the Wiki. Now that it has become clear to me
> >> > that the corporation and individual members, including myself, would be
> >> > at increased and increasing daily risk by the continued operation of
> >> > this project, I have exercised my authority and disabled the Magna
> >> > Mater Project webpage. I am not prepared to tolerate this continued
> >> > exposure under Federal and US law. It matters not that we have the
> >> > webpage hosted outside of the USA, any more than it would if the
> >> > corporation was in Europe and the website was in the US. This project,
> >> > this flagrant abuse of common sense must cease operation forthwith.
> >> >
> >> > I also know that some of you are laboring under the massive illusion
> >> > that we can use these funds to create a reflection area or other such
> >> > nonsense. Divest yourselves immediately and finally of the idea of
> >> > using funds obtained under a false premise for a purpose totally
> >> > unrelated to the aim stated at the time the donations were solicited.
> >> > That is illegal, utterly illegal and I suggest all of you with any
> >> > common sense and respect for your own personal liberty to speak up and
> >> > decry any such foolhardy nonsense.
> >> >
> >> > I have in my possession a CD that clearly states, in the words of the
> >> > promoter of this scheme, that the purpose was to raise our profile with
> >> > educational establishments. This is another nail in the coffin of this
> >> > project, that should NEVER have been born in the first place. If we
> >> > were to continue to raise money under what is a false pretense of
> >> > rebuilding, divert that money to building a bench, waste part of it on
> >> > a website promoting this falsehood, and then have the gall on video to
> >> > clearly say that the ultimate purpose was to gratify the continuing
> >> > desire of some here to see Nova Roma. and thus would contend any
> >> > prosecutor worth his salt - themselves, be the recipient of academic
> >> > validity and respect. That Senators would be the motive that would be
> >> > claimed and is clearly supported by the words of Caeso Fabius Buteo
> >> > Quintilianus himself on this video. We have obtained monies under a
> >> > false pretence to stroke the egos of some in this House who have
> >> > exercised no probity whatsoever in spite of the increasing concerns of
> >> > some of us concerning this project.
> >> >
> >> > I will tell you now that I am also investigating who exactly was the
> >> > recipient of monies paid out by Nova Roma Inc. for the creation of the
> >> > webpage. Franciscus Apulus Caesar worked and still works I believe for
> >> > the company that ostensibly created the page. I am not prepared to
> >> > trust any previous investigations into this matter and will endeavor to
> >> > satisfy myself as to who actually created it and who received the
> >> > money, be it by way of a company, a sub-contractor or an employee who
> >> > received a bonus. Put simply this was not acceptable that there was not
> >> > greater distance between someone on the Senate/BoD, a one time consul,
> >> > an arch proponent of this scheme and the recipient of monies for work
> >> > done.
> >> >
> >> > In short Senators the corporation and all those of you who have
> >> > actively promoted this are up to your necks potentially in some very
> >> > serious and deep waters. Do not even bother to advance the defense that
> >> > no one minded, or that no one really knew or understood. You were told
> >> > enough times - some of you making the disbursements and advocating for
> >> > this project, and you flatly ignored those warnings. I insist that this
> >> > project be terminated and all monies refunded. I also insist that no
> >> > expenditure whatsoever take place from this point in respect of this. I
> >> > also warn all of you that I will not hesitate to protect myself and
> >> > other s in this house if there is any substantive move to counter my
> >> > actions.
> >> >
> >> > In order to protect the corporation by demonstrating responsibility I
> >> > invite all those who have actively pursued this project with a carefree
> >> > zeal and reckless abandonment of any sense of duty and probity, in the
> >> > face of clear evidence that reconstruction was not possible, to step
> >> > down as BoD members and members of this House. In any other corporate
> >> > setting this would be enforced immediately. The days of a casual
> >> > disregard for the laws of the land - not our insignificant by-laws, but
> >> > real law, ended a long time ago. The amount of the money involved is
> >> > irrelevant too.
> >> >
> >> > We are in an election time for my long awaited and over due colleague.
> >> > Whoever that is, they better be aware that I will expect them to fall
> >> > in line with the necessary steps to protect the corporation and any
> >> > more investors from being duped. I will not tolerate the grandstanding
> >> > that goes on over this wretched scheme from my colleague. Two of the
> >> > candidates I know I can rely on to support me. I expect all other
> >> > officers of the corporation to fall in step on this one, and save any
> >> > spluttering about who is superior to who, or someone's dignitas. This
> >> > is a matter of potential criminal liability and personal liberty and
> >> > corporate survival. Those of you who the other two candidates may
> >> > listen to, make them aware of the seriousness of the situation.
> >> >
> >> > Finally, just to hone your interest I am investigating a report that a
> >> > potential donor has already made a complaint to as yet unidentified US
> >> > Department of Justice concerning wire fraud. Regardless of whether this
> >> > turns out to be substantive - it is now time to start behaving with
> >> > serious intent on this matter.
> >> >
> >> > Govern yourselves accordingly.
> >> >
> >> > Optime valete
> >> >
> >> > Gnaeus Iulius Caesar
> >> > Aedilis Curulis
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > _________________________________________________________________
> >> > Vous voulez savoir ce que vous pouvez faire avec le nouveau Windows
> >> > Live ? Lancez-vous !
> >> > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/default.aspx
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63325 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Salve Caesar,

I used to be the quaestor for the MM project I think in 2004. I kept very
strict records of all of the donations and also on who had the money in
their possession since donations were taken in by numerous people. While I
never suspected anyone of putting money in their pocket, I couldn't figure
out what the heck they were going to do with the money. All I knew is that
they wanted to build a website that would cost like ten times more than any
website that I'd ever heard of. It all seemed like a bunch of blah blah
blah and pipe dreams to me.

Vale,
Diana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63326 From: Lucius Iulius Regulus Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: Interesting News on the Tomb of Antony and Cleopatra
Salve,
 
Thought some would be interested in this news:
 
Posted: 11:41 AM ET

(CNN) — More details of the love-entwined lives — or afterlives — of Mark Antony and Cleopatra may be revealed in coming weeks as a team breaks new ground in its excavation of an Egyptian temple where the two may be buried.

 

A ground-penetrating, radar survey of the temple of Taposiris Magna and its surrounding area, west of Alexandria, was completed last month, following three years of digging, according to a statement from Egypt’s Supreme Council of Antiquities.

The expedition, in the north near the Mediterranean, is led by council Secretary-General Zahi Hawass and Dr. Kathleen Martinez, a scholar from the Dominican Republic.

 

Taposiris Magna, one of the ancient towns located on Lake Mariut, is today called Abusir.

According to the council, the radar revealed three possible spots of interest where a tomb might be located. Recently, the team discovered a large, previously unknown cemetery outside the temple enclosure.

 

“The discovery of this cemetery indicates that an important person, likely of royal status, could be buried inside the temple. It was common for officials and other high-status individuals in Egypt to construct their tombs close to those of their rulers throughout the Pharaonic period,” according to the council.

 

The expedition has so far turned up 27 tombs, 20 of them shaped like vaulted sarcophagi, and seven simple burial chambers that are reached by staircases. Inside these chambers, the team found 10 mummies, two of them gilded.

 

Lucius Iulius Regulus


Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63327 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: MMP
Cato omnibus in foro SPD

Salvete.

I am in the wilderness and have little access to Internet and write this on my iPhone but I have to correct here: the fraud is not on the part of an individual per se it is the act of collecting money for a temple that we knew would never be built. The whole corporation becomes liable if, after knowing the temple could not be restored we continued to collect money for that purpose. That we did do over the Internet opens this up to wire fraud. I have written several messages to the Senate which I have authorized to be copied to this Forum. Why do we insist on following the least responsible course of action possible? It boggles the mind.

Valete

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63328 From: Maior Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
M. Hortensia Quiritibusque spd;
if you want to know what is going on with the Magna Mater project just as T.Iulius Sabinus, last years consul who was very involved with the project.

Sabinus and Equestria Laeca worked closely together, if Gn Iulius Caesar or G. Equitius Cato really cared to find out the numbers and what was going on, all they had to do was ask Sabinus and Equestria.

Our finacial statement was posted last year for public inspection, it was a very important task our Consuls Sabinus and Piscinus accomplished.

Just like the elections, where a simple request to a tribune or our Chief Information Officer C. Curius Saturninus would have immediately answered questions. But neither did.

So if you genuinely want to know ask those involved. I've provided the information. I have no interest in perpetuating political feuds. I have recipes to make, research to do, Latin to study. Real life things.
Marca Hortensia Maior


In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Diana Octavia Aventina" <roman.babe@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Caesar,
>
> I used to be the quaestor for the MM project I think in 2004. I kept very
> strict records of all of the donations and also on who had the money in
> their possession since donations were taken in by numerous people. While I
> never suspected anyone of putting money in their pocket, I couldn't figure
> out what the heck they were going to do with the money. All I knew is that
> they wanted to build a website that would cost like ten times more than any
> website that I'd ever heard of. It all seemed like a bunch of blah blah
> blah and pipe dreams to me.
>
> Vale,
> Diana
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63329 From: Maior Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: Re: Interesting News on the Tomb of Antony and Cleopatra
M. Hortensia Iulio Regulo spd;
oh how exciting. Wouldn't it be truly epic if it were Cleopatra and Antony, i hope so.
tibi gratias ago for posting this!
Maior---


In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Lucius Iulius Regulus <luciusjul25@...> wrote:
>
> Salve,
>
> Thought some would be interested in this news:
>
> Tomb of Antony and Cleopatra may surface
> Posted: 11:41 AM ET
> (CNN) â€" More details of the love-entwined lives â€" or afterlives â€" of Mark Antony and Cleopatra may be revealed in coming weeks as a team breaks new ground in its excavation of an Egyptian temple where the two may be buried.
> Â
> A ground-penetrating, radar survey of the temple of Taposiris Magna and its surrounding area, west of Alexandria, was completed last month, following three years of digging, according to a statement from Egypt’s Supreme Council of Antiquities.
> The expedition, in the north near the Mediterranean, is led by council Secretary-General Zahi Hawass and Dr. Kathleen Martinez, a scholar from the Dominican Republic.
> Â
> Taposiris Magna, one of the ancient towns located on Lake Mariut, is today called Abusir.
> According to the council, the radar revealed three possible spots of interest where a tomb might be located. Recently, the team discovered a large, previously unknown cemetery outside the temple enclosure.
> Â
> “The discovery of this cemetery indicates that an important person, likely of royal status, could be buried inside the temple. It was common for officials and other high-status individuals in Egypt to construct their tombs close to those of their rulers throughout the Pharaonic period,” according to the council.
> Â
> The expedition has so far turned up 27 tombs, 20 of them shaped like vaulted sarcophagi, and seven simple burial chambers that are reached by staircases. Inside these chambers, the team found 10 mummies, two of them gilded.
> Â
> Lucius Iulius Regulus
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63330 From: L Julia Aquila Date: 2009-04-16
Subject: Re: Interesting News on the Tomb of Antony and Cleopatra
Salve cousin Regulus!

Thank you so much for bringing this to our attention!

Egypt's Supreme Council of Antiquities said Cleopatra and Mark Antony could have been buried in a deep shaft in a temple near the Mediterranean Sea. At the temple of Tapsoiris Magna last year archeologists unearthed the alabaster head of a Cleopatra statue, 22 coins bearing Cleopatra's image and a mask they believe belonged to Mark Antony. Built in the reign of King Ptolemy II, 282-246 BCE, the temple is located near the city of Alexandria. Excavations have been going on for three years and they have found many deep shafts, three possibly used for burials.
An Egyptologist from Oxford University, John Baines, can not see why Augustus would have chosen such a distinguished burial place, so he questions if this is indeed the burial place.
The styles of the tombs are Greco-Roman and the presence of a cemetery indicates that an important person could be buried within the temple.
The rest and some great photos are here:
http://news.aol.com/article/cleopatra-and-mark-antonys-tomb/428873?icid=main%7Caimzones%7Cdl1%7Clink4%7Chttp%3A%2F%2Fnews.aol.com%2Farticle%2Fcleopatra-and-mark-antonys-tomb%2F428873

Vale
Julia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Lucius Iulius Regulus <luciusjul25@...> wrote:
>
> Salve,
>
> Thought some would be interested in this news:
>
> Tomb of Antony and Cleopatra may surface
> Posted: 11:41 AM ET
> (CNN) â€" More details of the love-entwined lives â€" or afterlives â€" of Mark Antony and Cleopatra may be revealed in coming weeks as a team breaks new ground in its excavation of an Egyptian temple where the two may be buried.
>  
> A ground-penetrating, radar survey of the temple of Taposiris Magna and its surrounding area, west of Alexandria, was completed last month, following three years of digging, according to a statement from Egypt’s Supreme Council of Antiquities.
> The expedition, in the north near the Mediterranean, is led by council Secretary-General Zahi Hawass and Dr. Kathleen Martinez, a scholar from the Dominican Republic.
>  
> Taposiris Magna, one of the ancient towns located on Lake Mariut, is today called Abusir.
> According to the council, the radar revealed three possible spots of interest where a tomb might be located. Recently, the team discovered a large, previously unknown cemetery outside the temple enclosure.
>  
> “The discovery of this cemetery indicates that an important person, likely of royal status, could be buried inside the temple. It was common for officials and other high-status individuals in Egypt to construct their tombs close to those of their rulers throughout the Pharaonic period,” according to the council.
>  
> The expedition has so far turned up 27 tombs, 20 of them shaped like vaulted sarcophagi, and seven simple burial chambers that are reached by staircases. Inside these chambers, the team found 10 mummies, two of them gilded.
>  
> Lucius Iulius Regulus
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63331 From: Maior Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: Roman cookery
Salve Livia;
ha, thanks for that vote of un-authenticity.I thought as much;-)
I'm definitely going to make this zuppa, minestra as you suggest. Parsnips are very easy for me to get locally, so I will use them instead of carrots.
I usually dress my soup or pasta with olive oil and pepper. Kosher salt is a 'purified' salt, unlike sea salt which I prefer and has flavours from minerals and things.
There is a famous salt from the salt pans of Brittany which I'm tempted to buy,this Fleur de Sel.
I think then I will make the soup, have a nice fresh salad, some wine and then make Julia Aquila's small cheesecake desserts. I can get fresh locally produced ricotta too!

Thank you Italy for the Slow Food movement. We have members in my area and farmer's markets. The town even allows you to keep chickens and soon small goats so everyone can have fresh eggs and milk.
optime vale
Maior

> the recipe is "authentic" in the sense that there might surely be someone who makes it this way.
> But this soup tastes much better if it's completely vegetarian, otherwise the broth and the ham will drown the delicate taste of farro and chickpeas. The meat addition is probaly due to an imitation of the recipes for bean soups, but while beans are improved by ham, chickpeas are not.
>
> I suggest the following modifications:
> substitute the prosciutto with chopped carrots, or if you want to be more roman, parsnips.
>
> Chopped onion, celery and carrots sauteed in olive oil are the basis for a number of vegetable soups, and also for bolognese sauce. Parsnips (which are not available in Italy) will actually taste better than carrots for this use. If you use enough vegetables, they will give enough taste without needing to use broth.
> The chicken broth is absolutely superfluous: just add the chickpeas cooking water as needed.
>
> I'm not sure the nutmeg has something to do with the recipe; better leave it out. Nutmeg is really hard to dose, and the only recipe where it's absolutely necessary is potato puree.
> What's kosher salt?
>
> Don't puree all the chickpeas, but just one third of them. if you're lazy, like me, don't puree them at all, but overcook them a bit, so that part of them falls apart. Use a pressure cooker.
> The recipe will be easier to make if you double or treble the quantities (don't add more bay leaves though). Then you can freeze the leftovers for later use.
>
> It's essential to add olive oil and black pepper after serving.
>
> Vale,
> Livia
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@> wrote:
> >
> > For Dea Ceres and A. Sempronius Regulus:) and the rest of us;
> > Livia is this an authentic recipe? I copied it from the NY Times
> > here:
> > http://events.nytimes.com/recipes/8148/1998/09/02/Creamy-Farro-And-Chickpea-Soup/recipe.html
> >
> > Creamy Farro and Chickpea Sout:
> > Ingredients
> > 3/4 cup dried chickpeas, soaked in water overnight
> > 1/2 teaspoon sea salt
> > 2 imported bay leaves
> > 3 tablespoons extra virgin olive oil, plus more for garnish
> > 1/2 cup chopped onion
> > 1 tablespoon chopped prosciutto
> > 1 tablespoon minced celery
> > 3/4 cup farro or hulled barley, rinsed, then soaked in water overnight
> > 1 quart chicken broth
> > 1/2 teaspoon dried marjoram
> > 2 pinches freshly grated nutmeg
> > Kosher salt
> > Freshly ground black pepper
> >
> > Preparation
> > 1. Drain chickpeas, and place in a medium earthenware pan or saucepan. Cover with plenty of cold water, and bring to a boil. Add sea salt and bay leaves. Reduce heat, and cook, covered, until very soft, about 1 1/2 hours.
> > 2. Meanwhile, in a medium saucepan, heat olive oil and gently cook onion, prosciutto and celery for 4 to 5 minutes, stirring occasionally, until they are soft but not brown. Drain farro, and add it along with the chicken broth, marjoram and nutmeg to the onion mixture. Cook, partially covered, for about 1 hour.
> > 3. Drain chickpeas, reserving the cooking liquid. Discard bay leaves. In a food processor, puree chickpeas with 1 cup of the reserved liquid. Add pureed chickpeas to the farro mixture; if necessary, add more of the cooking liquid from the chickpeas to achieve the consistency of a creamy soup. Adjust the seasoning with salt and pepper. Wait 10 minutes before serving, and sprinkle each portion with chopped parsley and a drizzle of olive oil.
> >
> > >
> > > The wonderful, versatile, and super-healthy chickpea. There must be an individual chickpea divinity that should be identified and join the divine citizen patrons of Rome. Unlike other
> > > pulses/beans, the chickpea has unique healthy properties in that
> > >  
> > > 1. It reduces blood sugar
> > > 2. Reverses the ratio between the two cholesterols in favor
> > > of the beneficial one
> > > 3, Its nutrient value is not destroyed being made into a flour
> > > 4. It can be made into a flour
> > > 5. It actually carries the nutrients the brain needs through
> > > the very high protective barriers, and for that reason,
> > > 6. Is very good for mothers and children during pregnancy.
> > >  
> > > That is why the ancient Egyptian's worshipped the chickpea
> > > as a manifestation of Horus/who after death is one with Osiris.
> > > Its appearance was called, "chick-falcon" in ancient Egyptian.
> > >  
> > > Vale,
> > > A. Sempronius Regulus
> > >
> > > --- On Wed, 4/15/09, livia_plauta <livia.plauta@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > From: livia_plauta <livia.plauta@>
> > > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Roman cookery
> > > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > > Date: Wednesday, April 15, 2009, 8:10 PM
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Salve Maior,
> > > yes, I mean pulses, but actually I realized the only pulse used in this kind of soup that the Romans had is chickpeas.
> > > Cavolo nero it is. The soup is called ribollita. You should be able to google recipes for it.
> > >
> > > Vale,
> > > Livia
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, "Maior" <rory12001@ ..> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Salvete omnes;
> > > > Livia, by puls, do you mean pulses, legumes, beans? I definitely like the idea of spelt and chickpea soup, so I'll have an Etruscan theme. The? black cabbage, is that Cavalo Nero? as I can get it here and even grow it.
> > > >
> > > > Aureliane, is beer-making hard to do, as I liked some of those varients, fascinating!
> > > > bene vale in pacem Cereris
> > > > Marca Hortensia Maior
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, "A. Sempronius Regulus" <asempronius. regulus@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Ahem, I know our governor offers Neptune whiskey.
> > > > >
> > > > > --- On Tue, 4/14/09, marcuscorneliusdext er <iwn2000@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > From: marcuscorneliusdext er <iwn2000@>
> > > > > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Roman cookery
> > > > > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
> > > > > Date: Tuesday, April 14, 2009, 3:48 AM
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Did the Romans have beer or any kind of fermented grain drink, or just wine? Some kind of homemade brew might be appropriate for Cerealia, I should think, unless it's totally ahistorical. Making a small batch of beer is not that hard. (Making it good is another story.)
> > > > >
> > > > > Valete
> > > > > M. Cor. Dexter
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, "David .C" <vegeto1988@ ...> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Salvete M. Hortensia Maior
> > > > > > I have two suggestions I had read out of a book once. Foccasia Romana bread, which is basicly Foccasia bread with rosemary and olive oil. Another one I had read I can't remember the title of but it was basicly a beef roast cut into thin slices fried in olive oil and rosemary in a pan, then the juices are mixed with some wine, and let simmer then poured back over the meat.. I cooked it once and it was very delicious. It was a few years ago so there might have been more to it but i'm pritty sure that was all it was lol.
> > > > > > Lucius Julius Caesar
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
> > > > > > From: rory12001@ .
> > > > > > Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 00:49:45 +0000
> > > > > > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Roman cookery
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > M. Hortensia omnnibus spd;
> > > > > > I'd like to celebrate the Cerealia with a Roman dinner. Any suggestions about what I should make?
> > > > > > optime valete
> > > > > > M. Hortensia Maior
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
> > > > > > Create a cool, new character for your Windows Liveâ„¢ Messenger.
> > > > > > http://go.microsoft .com/?linkid= 9656621
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63332 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: Improving our Latin on the Nova Roma WIKI
Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Improving our Latin on the Nova Roma WIKI
Salve, Aquila, et salvete quirites, socii, peregrinique bonae voluntatis!
  

  Salve Magistra!

> >     ATS2:  In any case, two of the four Latin courses (including the one you
> > started) are effectively over despite all of the problems with the server at
> > the Academia Thules.  The students are to be commended for persevering under
> > such conditions (rousing chorus of We Shall Overcome).  All that is left is
> > the final exam and one set of homework corrections, both of which fall upon my
> > shoulders.  Have to write that final...  I shall expect you next year.
> > Methinks you would love to come to a beginners’ immersion; there is one in
> > Virginia this summer.

I would love to go to the beginner's immersion this summer. However until I find a wealthy Patron, I must continue to take art commissions, teach my courses, raise M. Iulius Aquila (and participate in his activities), see to my volunteer obligations in the community, esp the Arts with the Shakespeare festival coming up soon, and tend to all my other irons in the fire.

    ATS3:  We must pull some of those irons out of the fire.  These conventicula and rusticationes tend to last about a week, five to seven days, and lodging is often in college dorms...so not terribly expensive.  The ones in Virginia (beginners and more advanced) are rusticationes, that is, in the country, so are probably even cheaper.  M. Julius Aquila should get some Latin behind him so he can join you in the beginners’ group.  Most of the other conventicula require some fluency in advance, and the former AT field courses required the successful completion of Sermo II.  Perhaps those completing Sermo II and living near enough (possibly MHM and/or TLN) might be interested in this as well.  


My plate is overflowing with abundance!

    ATS3:  As are many of ours!

Vale,

Julia

Vale, et valete.  

  
    

     
   Messages in this topic           <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/63226
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63333 From: aerdensrw Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: Fw: Back Alley Insults the Virgo Maxima
My feeling about this is that Romans of antiquity probably poked ribald fun at the Religio clergy, even as people do today at Catholic clergy. The mere fact of celibacy lends itself to that sort of humor. I suspect, in private, clergy of other Christian sects today sometimes poke the same fun at Catholic priests' and nuns' expense. It's not respectful, but it is human, and it is not _meant_ to be hurtful. One expects, though, that the same people who might make such private comments would never do so in front of their congregations. Respect ought to be shown in public, even if one feels private amusement.

As far as I'm aware, none of these unflattering comments about the Chief Vestal were meant to be public. However, the Back Alley is a public and unmoderated list that anyone may freely join, read, and copy from, so posters there have to keep that in mind when writing. Still, it was not courteous or kind of someone to take it upon himself to make public some conversation that was meant to have been private.

Everything you say can and often will be used against you.

Paulla Corva
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63334 From: gaiuspopilliuslaenas Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Salvete quirites,

Here is some information that may help to clarify the situation.

The questions with the MMP have nothing to do with accounting. There is no evidence that funds have been misspent, misappropriated or the like.

The question regards the circumstances under which the donor funds were solicited. The stated goal of the project has been the restoration of the temple in Rome. For some time, it has been known that this is an impossible goal because of legal restrictions in Italy. However, the MMP web site has continued to mention resotration while continuing to collect donations. The Senate directed new objectives for the MMP last year, but a donor that contributed for the resoration might argue that his or her funds were solicited under false pretenses.

Gn Caesar, has taken the prudent action of shutting down the web site so that no further donations can be solicited or accpeted until the Senate can decide what the correct course of action should be.

Valete,

C. Popillius Laenas

(of and for Maior's sake, I am a Certified Public Accoutant with 9 year experience at a "Big 4" firm, and a Certified Financial Planner, with 32 years overall experience in accounting, finance, and investments
;-)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63335 From: aerdensrw Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
I will be interested to see what the Senate's response is to this matter. The reasoning that Cn. Jul. Caesar gave seemed detailed and thorough, by someone who appears to understand the law.

I think the Magna Mater website should REMAIN disabled until someone with a US law degree has provided an equally detailed explanation of why they think the curule aedile's concerns are unwarranted.

With great respect to M. Hortensia Maior, I need to see reasons. Just telling me that a qualified person looked over the books and saw nothing wrong does not adequately allay my concerns. Cn. Jul. Caesar gave very specific details of the problems he sees.

I can't remember if any portion of NR taxes is donated to the Magna Mater project, but if it is, whoever disburses that money could face legal difficultires, as well, if Cn. Jul. Caesar's concerns prove valid. I think we need to see facts--even though legalese makes my brain hurt.

If it is impossible to rebuild the Magna Mater temple on the original site, could it be rebuilt elsewhere? If the goals of the project have 'diverged' from the original goal, in what way were they changed, and is that goal attainable?

The solution to this issue might be as simple as changing the text of the website and informing the current donors of a need to change the goal. It might also be as simple as disabling the donation tool and restoring the rest of the site until this matter can be adequately resolved.

Paulla Corva
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63336 From: Lucius Cornelius Cicero Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Salve Maior

> So if you genuinely want to know ask those involved. I've provided >the information. I have no interest in perpetuating political feuds. >I have recipes to make, research to do, Latin to study. Real life >things.

You're being unnecessarily insulting towards Caesar. Nowhere has there been the slightest hint that his decision had anything to do with any political feuds. As a member of a group of scribae of the cohors aedelicia involved in helping Aedile Caesar with an assessment of the MMP's website and its legal implications, I can assure you that not once did politics play any role nor did they come up in the discussions the cohors held. What did become clear to everyone was that the website could open NR up to criminal or civil legal action due to the language used to solicit money and the actualy situation with regards to the rebuilding of the temple.

Aedile Caesar thus took the only step he could in suggesting that the website be suspended until these issues could be rectified. This is a decision based on sound judgment and only in the interests of NR and all its citizens, and also in the interests of the MMP.

I am amazed that some would try and turn this into a political issue when it is nothing of the sort.

Vale,

L Cornelius Cicero
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63337 From: enodia2002 Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Salvete!

Public charities and non-profits are very different animals than for profit businesses and have very different standards & laws. Having 501(c)(3) status is the beginning, but in order to solicit funds through donations, sales & grants, there are other entities that must be satisfied. For example, most of the US states require that a charity file with them in order to solicit funds, even over the internet. Amazon sales are the same. To date, NR has not filed with ANY state, even Maine, and this puts us out of compliance to a huge degree.

There is now a single form that will work in most states, but even so, each state has different filing fees and supporting documentation requirements. These forms should have been filed BEFORE we started asking anyone for money, but the longer we go, the worse the situation get. It is possible, indeed likely, that there will fines for late filing, and we have no idea how much this will go to.

While the US has tax treaties with some countries, we don't with all, and this creates another issue. Internet solicitation of funds has some very murky areas, and the smart thing to do would be to hire a professional to help us set things straight.

V Rutilia


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gaiuspopilliuslaenas" <gaiuspopillius@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete quirites,
>
> Here is some information that may help to clarify the situation.
>
> The questions with the MMP have nothing to do with accounting. There is no evidence that funds have been misspent, misappropriated or the like.
>
> The question regards the circumstances under which the donor funds were solicited. The stated goal of the project has been the restoration of the temple in Rome. For some time, it has been known that this is an impossible goal because of legal restrictions in Italy. However, the MMP web site has continued to mention resotration while continuing to collect donations. The Senate directed new objectives for the MMP last year, but a donor that contributed for the resoration might argue that his or her funds were solicited under false pretenses.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63338 From: Titus Flavius Aquila Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: AW: [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Salvete Quirites,
 
I,  Titus Flavius Aquila, responsible Quaestor for the MMP group within the cohors of the Aedilis Curulis Caesar, support the statement of
Lucius Cornelius Cicero.
 
Optime valete
Titus Flavius Aquila
Quaestor


Von: Lucius Cornelius Cicero <Cicero@...>
An: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Gesendet: Freitag, den 17. April 2009, 15:07:52 Uhr
Betreff: [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO

Salve Maior

> So if you genuinely want to know ask those involved. I've provided >the information. I have no interest in perpetuating political feuds. >I have recipes to make, research to do, Latin to study. Real life >things.

You're being unnecessarily insulting towards Caesar. Nowhere has there been the slightest hint that his decision had anything to do with any political feuds. As a member of a group of scribae of the cohors aedelicia involved in helping Aedile Caesar with an assessment of the MMP's website and its legal implications, I can assure you that not once did politics play any role nor did they come up in the discussions the cohors held. What did become clear to everyone was that the website could open NR up to criminal or civil legal action due to the language used to solicit money and the actualy situation with regards to the rebuilding of the temple.

Aedile Caesar thus took the only step he could in suggesting that the website be suspended until these issues could be rectified. This is a decision based on sound judgment and only in the interests of NR and all its citizens, and also in the interests of the MMP.

I am amazed that some would try and turn this into a political issue when it is nothing of the sort.

Vale,

L Cornelius Cicero


Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63339 From: gaiuspopilliuslaenas Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
C. Popillius Laenas L. Cornelio Cicero SPD

>>I am amazed that some would try and turn this into a political issue when it is nothing of the sort.<<

You not really amazed at that are you ;-)

Vale bene.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63340 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website
Salvete
 
Yes the Senate of Nova Roma has allocated tax money to the MMP and because of that
Nova Roma is the largest or at least the second largest donor to the MMP. Earlier this year, in the last month or so in fact, I asked that the money that Nova Roma has given be rescinded and returned to the treasury.
 
Valete
 
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus


To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
From: aerdensrw@...
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 14:21:34 +0000
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO



I will be interested to see what the Senate's response is to this matter. The reasoning that Cn. Jul. Caesar gave seemed detailed and thorough, by someone who appears to understand the law.

I think the Magna Mater website should REMAIN disabled until someone with a US law degree has provided an equally detailed explanation of why they think the curule aedile's concerns are unwarranted.

With great respect to M. Hortensia Maior, I need to see reasons. Just telling me that a qualified person looked over the books and saw nothing wrong does not adequately allay my concerns. Cn. Jul. Caesar gave very specific details of the problems he sees.

I can't remember if any portion of NR taxes is donated to the Magna Mater project, but if it is, whoever disburses that money could face legal difficultires, as well, if Cn. Jul. Caesar's concerns prove valid. I think we need to see facts--even though legalese makes my brain hurt.

If it is impossible to rebuild the Magna Mater temple on the original site, could it be rebuilt elsewhere? If the goals of the project have 'diverged' from the original goal, in what way were they changed, and is that goal attainable?

The solution to this issue might be as simple as changing the text of the website and informing the current donors of a need to change the goal. It might also be as simple as disabling the donation tool and restoring the rest of the site until this matter can be adequately resolved.

Paulla Corva


Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63341 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Corporate Compliance
Ladies and gentlemen here is your lesson on Corporate compliance for the evening. This was a post I generated to the Senate list.

Ave Conscript Fathers,

In my never ending research I have come across a very serious issue that Nova Roma's board of directors needs to address in all due haste.

According to Section 602 and 603 Nova Roma has never fully been in compliance with these sections which in a nutshell require us (NR) to notify all members who have voting eligibility of the elections of officers:

http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/statutes/13-B/title13-Bsec603.html

1. Written notice of meetings. Unless otherwise provided in the articles of incorporation or the bylaws, written notice stating the place, day and hour of the meeting and, in case of a special meeting, the purpose or purposes for which the meeting is called, shall be delivered not less than 10 nor more than 50 days before the date of the meeting, either personally or by mail, by or at the direction of the president or the secretary, or the officers or persons calling the meeting, to each member entitled to vote at such meeting. If mailed, such notice shall be deemed to be delivered when deposited in the United States mail addressed to the member at his address as it appears on the records of the corporation, with postage thereon prepaid.

So, given our lack of specificity in our bylaws - NR needed to provide written notification to each member who has the ability to vote. What NR has essentially created is a new class of member a third class if you will - those who are able to receive email (the first and second class are the Assidui/nonAssidui class). This also goes to notifications about dues and votes in general - such notification, per Maine Law - must be done in writing and thusly via surface mail.

The other issue is the lack of an annual meeting which must be duly advertised. Thusly, by failure to be in compliant with sectino 603 - we become automatically non-complaint per section 602.2 which states:

2. Annual meetings. A meeting shall be held annually at such time as may be provided in the articles of incorporation or bylaws. If there shall be a failure, for whatever reason, to hold the annual meeting for a period of 30 days after the date for such meeting specified in the bylaws or articles of incorporation, or if no date has been specified, for a period of 13 months after the organization of the corporation or after its last annual meeting, a substitute annual meeting may be called by any person or persons entitled to call a special meeting of the members.

While we can hold elections for our magistrates during the annual meeting we have failed to uphold issues of fidicuary duty in that NR has failed to disclose its annual reports and to allow access to said information to our membership -as stated in Section 1620

http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/Statutes/13-C/title13-Csec1620.html

In this I am going to disclose the entire statute:

1. Financial statements. No later than 5 months after the close of each fiscal year, each corporation that is not a close corporation shall prepare annual financial statements, which may be consolidated or combined statements of the corporation and one or more of its subsidiaries, as appropriate, that include a balance sheet as of the end of the fiscal year, an income statement for that year, and a statement of changes in shareholders' equity for the year unless that information appears elsewhere in the financial statements. If financial statements are prepared for the corporation on the basis of generally accepted accounting principles, the annual financial statements must also be prepared on that basis.
[ 2001, c. 640, Pt. A, §2 (NEW); 2001, c. 640, Pt. B, §7 (AFF) .]
2. Written demand for copy of financial statement. Upon written demand of any shareholder of a corporation, the corporation shall mail to that shareholder a copy of the most recent annual financial statement prepared in accordance with subsection 1. If the annual financial statement is reported upon by a public accountant, the accountant's report must accompany it. If the annual financial statement is not reported upon by a public accountant, the statement must be accompanied by a statement of the president or the person responsible for the corporation's accounting records:
A. Stating the reporter's reasonable belief whether the statement was prepared on the basis of generally accepted accounting principles and, if not, describing the basis of preparation; and [2001, c. 640, Pt. A, §2 (NEW); 2001, c. 640, Pt. B, §7 (AFF).]
B. Describing any respects in which the statement was not prepared on a basis of accounting consistent with the statement prepared for the preceding year. [2001, c. 640, Pt. A, §2 (NEW); 2001, c. 640, Pt. B, §7 (AFF).]
[ 2001, c. 640, Pt. A, §2 (NEW); 2001, c. 640, Pt. B, §7 (AFF) .]
3. Restrictions on disclosure of financial statement. The articles of incorporation or bylaws of a corporation may impose reasonable restrictions regarding the disclosure of financial information as a condition to delivery of an annual financial statement to a shareholder in accordance with this section.

With all due respect - Nova Roma needs to get it's corporate house in order, in all due haste. We need to make sure that we are in compliance with all laws and regulations and there is no better time than the present to begin work in that regards. The elections are not a substitution to the annual meeting!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63342 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Maior - YOU ARE A MEMBER OF THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS OF NOVA ROMA. Are you seriously saying that there are more important matters than actually conducting the work necessary as a board member?

Before you answer this question I suggest HIGHLY you read this website:

http://www.state.me.us/ag/consumer/charities/guide_charities.shtml

That is from the Maine Attorney General's website. Then answer my question.

Vale,

Sulla



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> M. Hortensia Quiritibusque spd;
> if you want to know what is going on with the Magna Mater project just as T.Iulius Sabinus, last years consul who was very involved with the project.
>
> Sabinus and Equestria Laeca worked closely together, if Gn Iulius Caesar or G. Equitius Cato really cared to find out the numbers and what was going on, all they had to do was ask Sabinus and Equestria.
>
> Our finacial statement was posted last year for public inspection, it was a very important task our Consuls Sabinus and Piscinus accomplished.
>
> Just like the elections, where a simple request to a tribune or our Chief Information Officer C. Curius Saturninus would have immediately answered questions. But neither did.
>
> So if you genuinely want to know ask those involved. I've provided the information. I have no interest in perpetuating political feuds. I have recipes to make, research to do, Latin to study. Real life things.
> Marca Hortensia Maior
>
>
> In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Diana Octavia Aventina" <roman.babe@> wrote:
> >
> > Salve Caesar,
> >
> > I used to be the quaestor for the MM project I think in 2004. I kept very
> > strict records of all of the donations and also on who had the money in
> > their possession since donations were taken in by numerous people. While I
> > never suspected anyone of putting money in their pocket, I couldn't figure
> > out what the heck they were going to do with the money. All I knew is that
> > they wanted to build a website that would cost like ten times more than any
> > website that I'd ever heard of. It all seemed like a bunch of blah blah
> > blah and pipe dreams to me.
> >
> > Vale,
> > Diana
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63343 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
Ave,

So are you volunteering yourself and the Praetor to represent NR pro bono in the event that NR has charges placed by either any or all of the following agencies:

Department of Justice
Maine Attorney General
Connecticut AG
FBI
Federal Trade Commission

And where are you licensed? When did you pass the bar?

Vale,

Sulla



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> ---M. Hortensia Quiritibus SPD.
> our praetor Albucius is a lawyer, I have a u.s law degree, our Chief Financial officer, Equestria Laeca is a financial analyst with an accounting degree.
> Equestria Laeca found no irregularity in the MM Fund when she reviewed our financial accounts.
>
> So this talk of fraud by Caesar and the rest is utter nonsense by those who neither know finance nor law , only want to bring the reputation of Nova Roma down.
>
> Quirites please ignore them and let us return to our informative Main List.
> let us continue to celebrate Dea Ceres!
> bene valete in pacem deorum
> M. Hortensia Maior
> >
> > Believing as I do that an offence under US law would be committed were I to do so, I will not place myself in a position of jeopardy by reactivating the site.
> >
> > You can access the site if the BoD wishes, and given the situation I suggest you all vote on it, through the offices of the citizen who currently hosts it.
> >
> > My electronic fingerprints will not be the one responsible for putting it up.
> >
> > Optime valete.
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Publius Memmius Albucius <albucius_aoe@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > P. MEMMIUS ALBUCIUS praetor edict nb PR 62-03 throwing intercessio on a decision taken by aedilis curulis Gn. Iulius Caesar
> > >
> > >
> > > I, Publius Memmius Albucius, praetor, by the authority vested by the constitution, the laws and the Senate of Nova Roma, and in view of the existing rules;
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > In view of the message sent to the Senate of Nova Roma today, a.d. XVI Kal Maias 2762 auc (Th 16th of April 2009), by Aedilis curulis Gn. Iulius Caesar (Senate "list", nb 14722), which tells especially:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "(..)Now that it has become clear to me that the corporation and individual members, including myself, would be at increased and increasing daily risk by the continued operation of this project, I have exercised my authority and disabled the Magna Mater Project webpage. I am not prepared to tolerate this continued exposure under Federal and US law. It matters not that we have the webpage hosted outside of the USA, any more than it would if the corporation was in Europe and the website was in the US.(..)"
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > After having verified that the web address "http://www.magnamaterproject.org/en/home.php" was in effect technically unavailable;
> > >
> > > Considering that the personal or political ideas of any magistrate, about a project duly reassessed a few months before, by the Senate of Nova Roma, as an important project supported by the Republic, does not authorize him to try to escape her/his responsibilities who are, as aedile, to implement the project, whatever be his own opinions on it;
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Considering that the arguments of fraud or illegality claimed by aedilis Caesar may be seen as the fact that the aedilis does not want to apply the Senatus consulta issued in 2761 auc or, at least, that he has not yet be able to take since last January all necessary measures to implement the project, and to find every appropriate means to update the Magna Mater web site, and thus correct the defaults that, according aedilis Iulius, would require an intervention and a conformity with NR Inc. incorporation local law;
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Considering that such a behavior is a violation of the general legal rule, well known by our Ancients, which say that "Nemo auditur propriam turpitudinem allegans" ("nobody is allowed to invoke his own turpitude") ;
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Considering that the aedilis, who himself claims the right to "administer" the project, has no other right but to just administer it, directly or through a "project leader", and that a so important decision such as the closing of the Project main web access, which is the main communication medium of the Project for Nova Roma, is clearly beyond his field of competencies, and falls into the Senate's ones;
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Considering therefore that Aedilis curulis has exceeded his powers;
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > edict :
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Article 1
> > >
> > > The decision taken by aedilis Iulius Caesar to disable the Magna Mater Project webpage is vetoed.
> > >
> > >
> > > Article 2
> > >
> > >
> > > As a consequence of the present intercessio, the Magna Mater Project web site must be reintegrated, by aedilis Gn. Iulius Caesar or under his responsibility, to its previous state.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Article 3
> > >
> > > It is reminded that any delay in the application of the prescription of article 2 commits the individual responsibility of aedilis Gn. Iulius Caesar.
> > >
> > >
> > > Article 4
> > >
> > > Aedilis Gn. Iulius Caesar must, and every novaroman public officer is required to, as far as they are concerned, enforce the present edict, which will be published in the Tabularium Novae Romae and in Nova Roma relevant internet 'discussion' lists, as well as notified to aedilis Caesar.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Issued in Condate, Gallia, a.d. IV a.d. XVI Kal Maias 2762 a.u.c. (Th 16th of April 2009) during the consulate of M. Curiatius Complutensis and M. Iulius Severus.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------aed. cur. Iulius' integral message---------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Cn. Iulius Caesar SPD.
> > >
> > > Senators, we have a significant problem with the Magna Mater Project. As I have earlier indicated here I have had a team working on what best to do with the project for this year, Regardless of the Senatus Consultum passed last year setting divergent paths for this project, from the long stated aim and taking no regard for the considerable effort that has been expended in some quarters here to wordsmith this change of direction into legitimacy, I must now as the magistrate charged with its administration report the following.
> > >
> > > Firstly, from the point that it became apparent that the goal of rebuilding the temple was not practical due to the general conditions laid down regarding the use of original material and the presence of trees imbedded in the foundations of the temple, the project not only became an outstanding failure, it also became illegal to operate it. Illegal due the requirements of Maine statutes in respect of advertising, but more importantly under Federal US law. I quote:
> > >
> > > US Code Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 63 § 1343:
> > >
> > > Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, transmits or causes to be transmitted by means of wire, radio, or television communication in interstate or foreign commerce, any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or sounds for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. If the violation affects a financial institution, such person shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both.
> > >
> > > http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/1343.html
> > >
> > > As I am sure some of you will be more concerned in keeping this utter failure and now clear fraud alive, and refuse to even consider that firstly it could be criminal or secondly that anyone will care or there be consequences, let me first demonstrate why this is wire fraud. My comments against the points to prove of this offence are in brackets.
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > 1. Whoever (the Senate/BoD of Nova Roma (Inc) )
> > >
> > > 2. having devised or intending to devise (the Senate/BoD authorized its creating and continuing operation)
> > >
> > > 3. any scheme or artifice (the Magna Mater Project)
> > >
> > > 4. to defraud (any prosecution would seek to prove intent to defraud primarily but have (5) as an alternative grounds to indict the Senate/BoD members and/or corporation)
> > >
> > > 5. or for obtaining money or property (money was solicited for the Magna Mater project before and after the creation of the webpage)
> > >
> > > 6. by means of false or fraudulent pretenses (this is the point to prove in the offence that this Senate/BoD is undoubtedly guilty of - we posited on the sponsorship page that we were seeking to rebuild the temple when it had been made abundantly clear to this house that this was impossible given the rules in force for reconstruction and the presence of the trees)
> > >
> > > 7. representations, or promises, (makes the claims concerning the goal of reconstruction - a false and impossible claim)
> > >
> > > 8. transmits or causes to be transmitted by means of wire, radio or television communication (the operation of the webpage across the Internet falls under this category of wire)
> > >
> > > 9. any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or sounds (the webpage)
> > >
> > > 10. for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice (the webpage is designed to promote the Magna Mater Project and solicit donations)
> > >
> > > 11. shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both
> > >
> > > 12. If the violation affects a financial institution, such person shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both. (Not applicable)
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Senators, clearly under point 6 above knowing that the goal of rebuilding the temple could not realistically be achieved under these conditions that have existed since at the very least the Superintendent's office has had control of monuments in and outside of the Forum Romanum, this Senate/BoD sanctioned a false pretense. It was never good enough to obliquely mention on a different site, the Wiki, the problems and thus impossibility of rebuilding it. Put simply the entire webpage was constructed on a false premise and has been operating under that since it was created. The records of this House, and as I don't trust the probity and common sense of some of you, don't bother to delete them everything is saved, clearly indicate that the knowledge of this inherent inability to rebuild was well known. To solicit donations based on this is clearly, and let none of you even bother to debate this for you are merely sealing your own demise in any prosecution, a fraudulent pretense.
> > >
> > > You all better start waking up to the fact that we can no longer live in some fantasy bubble that Nova Roma is independent of macronational legal requirements or the consequences of breaching them - as a number of us have been telling you all for a number of years, albeit a number of you have deliberately ignored this by refusing abjectly to recognize the consequences of your inaction in this respect.
> > >
> > > As the magistrate charged this year with administering this absolute fraud, I put you all on notice early on that I would investigate it and report back to you. I have done so. Earlier while I was conducting my investigations took the precaution of placing a warning above the donation button and provided a link for prospective donors to take them to the relevant page in the Wiki. Now that it has become clear to me that the corporation and individual members, including myself, would be at increased and increasing daily risk by the continued operation of this project, I have exercised my authority and disabled the Magna Mater Project webpage. I am not prepared to tolerate this continued exposure under Federal and US law. It matters not that we have the webpage hosted outside of the USA, any more than it would if the corporation was in Europe and the website was in the US. This project, this flagrant abuse of common sense must cease operation forthwith.
> > >
> > > I also know that some of you are laboring under the massive illusion that we can use these funds to create a reflection area or other such nonsense. Divest yourselves immediately and finally of the idea of using funds obtained under a false premise for a purpose totally unrelated to the aim stated at the time the donations were solicited. That is illegal, utterly illegal and I suggest all of you with any common sense and respect for your own personal liberty to speak up and decry any such foolhardy nonsense.
> > >
> > > I have in my possession a CD that clearly states, in the words of the promoter of this scheme, that the purpose was to raise our profile with educational establishments. This is another nail in the coffin of this project, that should NEVER have been born in the first place. If we were to continue to raise money under what is a false pretense of rebuilding, divert that money to building a bench, waste part of it on a website promoting this falsehood, and then have the gall on video to clearly say that the ultimate purpose was to gratify the continuing desire of some here to see Nova Roma. and thus would contend any prosecutor worth his salt - themselves, be the recipient of academic validity and respect. That Senators would be the motive that would be claimed and is clearly supported by the words of Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus himself on this video. We have obtained monies under a false pretence to stroke the egos of some in this House who have exercised no probity whatsoever in spite of the increasing concerns of some of us concerning this project.
> > >
> > > I will tell you now that I am also investigating who exactly was the recipient of monies paid out by Nova Roma Inc. for the creation of the webpage. Franciscus Apulus Caesar worked and still works I believe for the company that ostensibly created the page. I am not prepared to trust any previous investigations into this matter and will endeavor to satisfy myself as to who actually created it and who received the money, be it by way of a company, a sub-contractor or an employee who received a bonus. Put simply this was not acceptable that there was not greater distance between someone on the Senate/BoD, a one time consul, an arch proponent of this scheme and the recipient of monies for work done.
> > >
> > > In short Senators the corporation and all those of you who have actively promoted this are up to your necks potentially in some very serious and deep waters. Do not even bother to advance the defense that no one minded, or that no one really knew or understood. You were told enough times - some of you making the disbursements and advocating for this project, and you flatly ignored those warnings. I insist that this project be terminated and all monies refunded. I also insist that no expenditure whatsoever take place from this point in respect of this. I also warn all of you that I will not hesitate to protect myself and other s in this house if there is any substantive move to counter my actions.
> > >
> > > In order to protect the corporation by demonstrating responsibility I invite all those who have actively pursued this project with a carefree zeal and reckless abandonment of any sense of duty and probity, in the face of clear evidence that reconstruction was not possible, to step down as BoD members and members of this House. In any other corporate setting this would be enforced immediately. The days of a casual disregard for the laws of the land - not our insignificant by-laws, but real law, ended a long time ago. The amount of the money involved is irrelevant too.
> > >
> > > We are in an election time for my long awaited and over due colleague. Whoever that is, they better be aware that I will expect them to fall in line with the necessary steps to protect the corporation and any more investors from being duped. I will not tolerate the grandstanding that goes on over this wretched scheme from my colleague. Two of the candidates I know I can rely on to support me. I expect all other officers of the corporation to fall in step on this one, and save any spluttering about who is superior to who, or someone's dignitas. This is a matter of potential criminal liability and personal liberty and corporate survival. Those of you who the other two candidates may listen to, make them aware of the seriousness of the situation.
> > >
> > > Finally, just to hone your interest I am investigating a report that a potential donor has already made a complaint to as yet unidentified US Department of Justice concerning wire fraud. Regardless of whether this turns out to be substantive - it is now time to start behaving with serious intent on this matter.
> > >
> > > Govern yourselves accordingly.
> > >
> > > Optime valete
> > >
> > > Gnaeus Iulius Caesar
> > > Aedilis Curulis
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > Vous voulez savoir ce que vous pouvez faire avec le nouveau Windows Live ? Lancez-vous !
> > > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/default.aspx
> > >
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63344 From: vallenporter Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: it not about perpetuating political feuds
It about following the law.

USA law

before we can take in funds we must file with the state
Department of Justice After registering with the
Charitable Activities Section, financial reports are required on an
annual basis. Additional licensing and reporting requirements may be
imposed by the State or other jurisdictions
in the state that i live the law says

* All corporations organized under the laws of the state of Oregon
for charitable purposes must register. This includes, but is not
limited to, any corporation registered with the Oregon Secretary of
State as a nonprofit, public benefit corporation.
* All corporations organized under the laws of any state
jurisdiction other than Oregon and doing business, holding assets or
soliciting in the state of Oregon.

and most states have a law like this.I and other have sent email to all the TPTb as to what needs to be done .

I do not want NR to fail BUT if we do not stop what we are doing about getting funds right now and get outside lawyers and File with the IRS and states DOJ's we will be fined to dead.
I am on other 501(c{3}) BOD's they file...

so they can ask for funds

this will not go away.FIX IT NOW
MCF
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63345 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
There is nothing we can do with the money. We cant deviate the funds as it would be illegal. What we are stuck with is the equivalent of the Nigerian 419 fraud.

Vale,

Sulla

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Diana Octavia Aventina" <roman.babe@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Caesar,
>
> I used to be the quaestor for the MM project I think in 2004. I kept very
> strict records of all of the donations and also on who had the money in
> their possession since donations were taken in by numerous people. While I
> never suspected anyone of putting money in their pocket, I couldn't figure
> out what the heck they were going to do with the money. All I knew is that
> they wanted to build a website that would cost like ten times more than any
> website that I'd ever heard of. It all seemed like a bunch of blah blah
> blah and pipe dreams to me.
>
> Vale,
> Diana
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63346 From: Lucius Cornelius Cicero Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
How did you know?

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gaiuspopilliuslaenas" <gaiuspopillius@...> wrote:
>
> C. Popillius Laenas L. Cornelio Cicero SPD
>
> >>I am amazed that some would try and turn this into a political issue when it is nothing of the sort.<<
>
> You not really amazed at that are you ;-)
>
> Vale bene.
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63347 From: vallenporter Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> ---M. Hortensia Quiritibus SPD.

and what state bar are you on?
MCF



> our praetor Albucius is a lawyer, I have a u.s law degree, our Chief Financial officer, Equestria Laeca is a financial analyst with an accounting degree.
> Equestria Laeca found no irregularity in the MM Fund when she reviewed our financial accounts.
>
> So this talk of fraud by Caesar and the rest is utter nonsense by those who neither know finance nor law , only want to bring the reputation of Nova Roma down.
>
> Quirites please ignore them and let us return to our informative Main List.
> let us continue to celebrate Dea Ceres!
> bene valete in pacem deorum
> M. Hortensia Maior
> >
> > Believing as I do that an offence under US law would be committed were I to do so, I will not place myself in a position of jeopardy by reactivating the site.
> >
> > You can access the site if the BoD wishes, and given the situation I suggest you all vote on it, through the offices of the citizen who currently hosts it.
> >
> > My electronic fingerprints will not be the one responsible for putting it up.
> >
> > Optime valete.
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Publius Memmius Albucius <albucius_aoe@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > P. MEMMIUS ALBUCIUS praetor edict nb PR 62-03 throwing intercessio on a decision taken by aedilis curulis Gn. Iulius Caesar
> > >
> > >
> > > I, Publius Memmius Albucius, praetor, by the authority vested by the constitution, the laws and the Senate of Nova Roma, and in view of the existing rules;
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > In view of the message sent to the Senate of Nova Roma today, a.d. XVI Kal Maias 2762 auc (Th 16th of April 2009), by Aedilis curulis Gn. Iulius Caesar (Senate "list", nb 14722), which tells especially:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "(..)Now that it has become clear to me that the corporation and individual members, including myself, would be at increased and increasing daily risk by the continued operation of this project, I have exercised my authority and disabled the Magna Mater Project webpage. I am not prepared to tolerate this continued exposure under Federal and US law. It matters not that we have the webpage hosted outside of the USA, any more than it would if the corporation was in Europe and the website was in the US.(..)"
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > After having verified that the web address "http://www.magnamaterproject.org/en/home.php" was in effect technically unavailable;
> > >
> > > Considering that the personal or political ideas of any magistrate, about a project duly reassessed a few months before, by the Senate of Nova Roma, as an important project supported by the Republic, does not authorize him to try to escape her/his responsibilities who are, as aedile, to implement the project, whatever be his own opinions on it;
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Considering that the arguments of fraud or illegality claimed by aedilis Caesar may be seen as the fact that the aedilis does not want to apply the Senatus consulta issued in 2761 auc or, at least, that he has not yet be able to take since last January all necessary measures to implement the project, and to find every appropriate means to update the Magna Mater web site, and thus correct the defaults that, according aedilis Iulius, would require an intervention and a conformity with NR Inc. incorporation local law;
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Considering that such a behavior is a violation of the general legal rule, well known by our Ancients, which say that "Nemo auditur propriam turpitudinem allegans" ("nobody is allowed to invoke his own turpitude") ;
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Considering that the aedilis, who himself claims the right to "administer" the project, has no other right but to just administer it, directly or through a "project leader", and that a so important decision such as the closing of the Project main web access, which is the main communication medium of the Project for Nova Roma, is clearly beyond his field of competencies, and falls into the Senate's ones;
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Considering therefore that Aedilis curulis has exceeded his powers;
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > edict :
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Article 1
> > >
> > > The decision taken by aedilis Iulius Caesar to disable the Magna Mater Project webpage is vetoed.
> > >
> > >
> > > Article 2
> > >
> > >
> > > As a consequence of the present intercessio, the Magna Mater Project web site must be reintegrated, by aedilis Gn. Iulius Caesar or under his responsibility, to its previous state.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Article 3
> > >
> > > It is reminded that any delay in the application of the prescription of article 2 commits the individual responsibility of aedilis Gn. Iulius Caesar.
> > >
> > >
> > > Article 4
> > >
> > > Aedilis Gn. Iulius Caesar must, and every novaroman public officer is required to, as far as they are concerned, enforce the present edict, which will be published in the Tabularium Novae Romae and in Nova Roma relevant internet 'discussion' lists, as well as notified to aedilis Caesar.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Issued in Condate, Gallia, a.d. IV a.d. XVI Kal Maias 2762 a.u.c. (Th 16th of April 2009) during the consulate of M. Curiatius Complutensis and M. Iulius Severus.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------aed. cur. Iulius' integral message---------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Cn. Iulius Caesar SPD.
> > >
> > > Senators, we have a significant problem with the Magna Mater Project. As I have earlier indicated here I have had a team working on what best to do with the project for this year, Regardless of the Senatus Consultum passed last year setting divergent paths for this project, from the long stated aim and taking no regard for the considerable effort that has been expended in some quarters here to wordsmith this change of direction into legitimacy, I must now as the magistrate charged with its administration report the following.
> > >
> > > Firstly, from the point that it became apparent that the goal of rebuilding the temple was not practical due to the general conditions laid down regarding the use of original material and the presence of trees imbedded in the foundations of the temple, the project not only became an outstanding failure, it also became illegal to operate it. Illegal due the requirements of Maine statutes in respect of advertising, but more importantly under Federal US law. I quote:
> > >
> > > US Code Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 63 § 1343:
> > >
> > > Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, transmits or causes to be transmitted by means of wire, radio, or television communication in interstate or foreign commerce, any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or sounds for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. If the violation affects a financial institution, such person shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both.
> > >
> > > http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/1343.html
> > >
> > > As I am sure some of you will be more concerned in keeping this utter failure and now clear fraud alive, and refuse to even consider that firstly it could be criminal or secondly that anyone will care or there be consequences, let me first demonstrate why this is wire fraud. My comments against the points to prove of this offence are in brackets.
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > 1. Whoever (the Senate/BoD of Nova Roma (Inc) )
> > >
> > > 2. having devised or intending to devise (the Senate/BoD authorized its creating and continuing operation)
> > >
> > > 3. any scheme or artifice (the Magna Mater Project)
> > >
> > > 4. to defraud (any prosecution would seek to prove intent to defraud primarily but have (5) as an alternative grounds to indict the Senate/BoD members and/or corporation)
> > >
> > > 5. or for obtaining money or property (money was solicited for the Magna Mater project before and after the creation of the webpage)
> > >
> > > 6. by means of false or fraudulent pretenses (this is the point to prove in the offence that this Senate/BoD is undoubtedly guilty of - we posited on the sponsorship page that we were seeking to rebuild the temple when it had been made abundantly clear to this house that this was impossible given the rules in force for reconstruction and the presence of the trees)
> > >
> > > 7. representations, or promises, (makes the claims concerning the goal of reconstruction - a false and impossible claim)
> > >
> > > 8. transmits or causes to be transmitted by means of wire, radio or television communication (the operation of the webpage across the Internet falls under this category of wire)
> > >
> > > 9. any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or sounds (the webpage)
> > >
> > > 10. for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice (the webpage is designed to promote the Magna Mater Project and solicit donations)
> > >
> > > 11. shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both
> > >
> > > 12. If the violation affects a financial institution, such person shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both. (Not applicable)
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Senators, clearly under point 6 above knowing that the goal of rebuilding the temple could not realistically be achieved under these conditions that have existed since at the very least the Superintendent's office has had control of monuments in and outside of the Forum Romanum, this Senate/BoD sanctioned a false pretense. It was never good enough to obliquely mention on a different site, the Wiki, the problems and thus impossibility of rebuilding it. Put simply the entire webpage was constructed on a false premise and has been operating under that since it was created. The records of this House, and as I don't trust the probity and common sense of some of you, don't bother to delete them everything is saved, clearly indicate that the knowledge of this inherent inability to rebuild was well known. To solicit donations based on this is clearly, and let none of you even bother to debate this for you are merely sealing your own demise in any prosecution, a fraudulent pretense.
> > >
> > > You all better start waking up to the fact that we can no longer live in some fantasy bubble that Nova Roma is independent of macronational legal requirements or the consequences of breaching them - as a number of us have been telling you all for a number of years, albeit a number of you have deliberately ignored this by refusing abjectly to recognize the consequences of your inaction in this respect.
> > >
> > > As the magistrate charged this year with administering this absolute fraud, I put you all on notice early on that I would investigate it and report back to you. I have done so. Earlier while I was conducting my investigations took the precaution of placing a warning above the donation button and provided a link for prospective donors to take them to the relevant page in the Wiki. Now that it has become clear to me that the corporation and individual members, including myself, would be at increased and increasing daily risk by the continued operation of this project, I have exercised my authority and disabled the Magna Mater Project webpage. I am not prepared to tolerate this continued exposure under Federal and US law. It matters not that we have the webpage hosted outside of the USA, any more than it would if the corporation was in Europe and the website was in the US. This project, this flagrant abuse of common sense must cease operation forthwith.
> > >
> > > I also know that some of you are laboring under the massive illusion that we can use these funds to create a reflection area or other such nonsense. Divest yourselves immediately and finally of the idea of using funds obtained under a false premise for a purpose totally unrelated to the aim stated at the time the donations were solicited. That is illegal, utterly illegal and I suggest all of you with any common sense and respect for your own personal liberty to speak up and decry any such foolhardy nonsense.
> > >
> > > I have in my possession a CD that clearly states, in the words of the promoter of this scheme, that the purpose was to raise our profile with educational establishments. This is another nail in the coffin of this project, that should NEVER have been born in the first place. If we were to continue to raise money under what is a false pretense of rebuilding, divert that money to building a bench, waste part of it on a website promoting this falsehood, and then have the gall on video to clearly say that the ultimate purpose was to gratify the continuing desire of some here to see Nova Roma. and thus would contend any prosecutor worth his salt - themselves, be the recipient of academic validity and respect. That Senators would be the motive that would be claimed and is clearly supported by the words of Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus himself on this video. We have obtained monies under a false pretence to stroke the egos of some in this House who have exercised no probity whatsoever in spite of the increasing concerns of some of us concerning this project.
> > >
> > > I will tell you now that I am also investigating who exactly was the recipient of monies paid out by Nova Roma Inc. for the creation of the webpage. Franciscus Apulus Caesar worked and still works I believe for the company that ostensibly created the page. I am not prepared to trust any previous investigations into this matter and will endeavor to satisfy myself as to who actually created it and who received the money, be it by way of a company, a sub-contractor or an employee who received a bonus. Put simply this was not acceptable that there was not greater distance between someone on the Senate/BoD, a one time consul, an arch proponent of this scheme and the recipient of monies for work done.
> > >
> > > In short Senators the corporation and all those of you who have actively promoted this are up to your necks potentially in some very serious and deep waters. Do not even bother to advance the defense that no one minded, or that no one really knew or understood. You were told enough times - some of you making the disbursements and advocating for this project, and you flatly ignored those warnings. I insist that this project be terminated and all monies refunded. I also insist that no expenditure whatsoever take place from this point in respect of this. I also warn all of you that I will not hesitate to protect myself and other s in this house if there is any substantive move to counter my actions.
> > >
> > > In order to protect the corporation by demonstrating responsibility I invite all those who have actively pursued this project with a carefree zeal and reckless abandonment of any sense of duty and probity, in the face of clear evidence that reconstruction was not possible, to step down as BoD members and members of this House. In any other corporate setting this would be enforced immediately. The days of a casual disregard for the laws of the land - not our insignificant by-laws, but real law, ended a long time ago. The amount of the money involved is irrelevant too.
> > >
> > > We are in an election time for my long awaited and over due colleague. Whoever that is, they better be aware that I will expect them to fall in line with the necessary steps to protect the corporation and any more investors from being duped. I will not tolerate the grandstanding that goes on over this wretched scheme from my colleague. Two of the candidates I know I can rely on to support me. I expect all other officers of the corporation to fall in step on this one, and save any spluttering about who is superior to who, or someone's dignitas. This is a matter of potential criminal liability and personal liberty and corporate survival. Those of you who the other two candidates may listen to, make them aware of the seriousness of the situation.
> > >
> > > Finally, just to hone your interest I am investigating a report that a potential donor has already made a complaint to as yet unidentified US Department of Justice concerning wire fraud. Regardless of whether this turns out to be substantive - it is now time to start behaving with serious intent on this matter.
> > >
> > > Govern yourselves accordingly.
> > >
> > > Optime valete
> > >
> > > Gnaeus Iulius Caesar
> > > Aedilis Curulis
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > Vous voulez savoir ce que vous pouvez faire avec le nouveau Windows Live ? Lancez-vous !
> > > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/default.aspx
> > >
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63348 From: vallenporter Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> ---M. Hortensia Quiritibus SPD.
> our praetor Albucius is a lawyer, I have a u.s law degree, our Chief Financial officer, Equestria Laeca is a financial analyst with an accounting degree.
> Equestria Laeca found no irregularity in the MM Fund when she reviewed our financial accounts.
>
> So this talk of fraud by Caesar and the rest is utter nonsense by those who neither know finance nor law , only want to bring the reputation of Nova Roma down.

Salve M. Hortensia
#1Caesar worked as a COP on Fraud cases. he says it is fraud.
it not so much what we did with the funds once we had them ( but there are iessues there also) but HOW we got them.IE we said the funds were for X thing . the way the rules for that site are set up in roma are. we can not do X , so asking for funds fopr something we can not do is Fraud QED.

#2 even with all that there's paperwork that has not been filed , I have e-mail the CFO and RE: the paperwork we need to file about asking for any funds other then taxes. guess what she says I am right. not you.you mite want to go back and ask the CFO about the Department of Justice and registering with the
Charitable Activities Sections of the states.you will find she has talk with one ( that I know of) DOJ offce about this and we need to file and need to do so before asking for funds

MCF






>
> Quirites please ignore them and let us return to our informative Main List.
> let us continue to celebrate Dea Ceres!
> bene valete in pacem deorum
> M. Hortensia Maior
> >
> > Believing as I do that an offence under US law would be committed were I to do so, I will not place myself in a position of jeopardy by reactivating the site.
> >
> > You can access the site if the BoD wishes, and given the situation I suggest you all vote on it, through the offices of the citizen who currently hosts it.
> >
> > My electronic fingerprints will not be the one responsible for putting it up.
> >
> > Optime valete.
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Publius Memmius Albucius <albucius_aoe@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > P. MEMMIUS ALBUCIUS praetor edict nb PR 62-03 throwing intercessio on a decision taken by aedilis curulis Gn. Iulius Caesar
> > >
> > >
> > > I, Publius Memmius Albucius, praetor, by the authority vested by the constitution, the laws and the Senate of Nova Roma, and in view of the existing rules;
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > In view of the message sent to the Senate of Nova Roma today, a.d. XVI Kal Maias 2762 auc (Th 16th of April 2009), by Aedilis curulis Gn. Iulius Caesar (Senate "list", nb 14722), which tells especially:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "(..)Now that it has become clear to me that the corporation and individual members, including myself, would be at increased and increasing daily risk by the continued operation of this project, I have exercised my authority and disabled the Magna Mater Project webpage. I am not prepared to tolerate this continued exposure under Federal and US law. It matters not that we have the webpage hosted outside of the USA, any more than it would if the corporation was in Europe and the website was in the US.(..)"
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > After having verified that the web address "http://www.magnamaterproject.org/en/home.php" was in effect technically unavailable;
> > >
> > > Considering that the personal or political ideas of any magistrate, about a project duly reassessed a few months before, by the Senate of Nova Roma, as an important project supported by the Republic, does not authorize him to try to escape her/his responsibilities who are, as aedile, to implement the project, whatever be his own opinions on it;
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Considering that the arguments of fraud or illegality claimed by aedilis Caesar may be seen as the fact that the aedilis does not want to apply the Senatus consulta issued in 2761 auc or, at least, that he has not yet be able to take since last January all necessary measures to implement the project, and to find every appropriate means to update the Magna Mater web site, and thus correct the defaults that, according aedilis Iulius, would require an intervention and a conformity with NR Inc. incorporation local law;
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Considering that such a behavior is a violation of the general legal rule, well known by our Ancients, which say that "Nemo auditur propriam turpitudinem allegans" ("nobody is allowed to invoke his own turpitude") ;
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Considering that the aedilis, who himself claims the right to "administer" the project, has no other right but to just administer it, directly or through a "project leader", and that a so important decision such as the closing of the Project main web access, which is the main communication medium of the Project for Nova Roma, is clearly beyond his field of competencies, and falls into the Senate's ones;
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Considering therefore that Aedilis curulis has exceeded his powers;
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > edict :
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Article 1
> > >
> > > The decision taken by aedilis Iulius Caesar to disable the Magna Mater Project webpage is vetoed.
> > >
> > >
> > > Article 2
> > >
> > >
> > > As a consequence of the present intercessio, the Magna Mater Project web site must be reintegrated, by aedilis Gn. Iulius Caesar or under his responsibility, to its previous state.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Article 3
> > >
> > > It is reminded that any delay in the application of the prescription of article 2 commits the individual responsibility of aedilis Gn. Iulius Caesar.
> > >
> > >
> > > Article 4
> > >
> > > Aedilis Gn. Iulius Caesar must, and every novaroman public officer is required to, as far as they are concerned, enforce the present edict, which will be published in the Tabularium Novae Romae and in Nova Roma relevant internet 'discussion' lists, as well as notified to aedilis Caesar.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Issued in Condate, Gallia, a.d. IV a.d. XVI Kal Maias 2762 a.u.c. (Th 16th of April 2009) during the consulate of M. Curiatius Complutensis and M. Iulius Severus.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------aed. cur. Iulius' integral message---------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Cn. Iulius Caesar SPD.
> > >
> > > Senators, we have a significant problem with the Magna Mater Project. As I have earlier indicated here I have had a team working on what best to do with the project for this year, Regardless of the Senatus Consultum passed last year setting divergent paths for this project, from the long stated aim and taking no regard for the considerable effort that has been expended in some quarters here to wordsmith this change of direction into legitimacy, I must now as the magistrate charged with its administration report the following.
> > >
> > > Firstly, from the point that it became apparent that the goal of rebuilding the temple was not practical due to the general conditions laid down regarding the use of original material and the presence of trees imbedded in the foundations of the temple, the project not only became an outstanding failure, it also became illegal to operate it. Illegal due the requirements of Maine statutes in respect of advertising, but more importantly under Federal US law. I quote:
> > >
> > > US Code Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 63 § 1343:
> > >
> > > Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, transmits or causes to be transmitted by means of wire, radio, or television communication in interstate or foreign commerce, any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or sounds for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. If the violation affects a financial institution, such person shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both.
> > >
> > > http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/1343.html
> > >
> > > As I am sure some of you will be more concerned in keeping this utter failure and now clear fraud alive, and refuse to even consider that firstly it could be criminal or secondly that anyone will care or there be consequences, let me first demonstrate why this is wire fraud. My comments against the points to prove of this offence are in brackets.
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > 1. Whoever (the Senate/BoD of Nova Roma (Inc) )
> > >
> > > 2. having devised or intending to devise (the Senate/BoD authorized its creating and continuing operation)
> > >
> > > 3. any scheme or artifice (the Magna Mater Project)
> > >
> > > 4. to defraud (any prosecution would seek to prove intent to defraud primarily but have (5) as an alternative grounds to indict the Senate/BoD members and/or corporation)
> > >
> > > 5. or for obtaining money or property (money was solicited for the Magna Mater project before and after the creation of the webpage)
> > >
> > > 6. by means of false or fraudulent pretenses (this is the point to prove in the offence that this Senate/BoD is undoubtedly guilty of - we posited on the sponsorship page that we were seeking to rebuild the temple when it had been made abundantly clear to this house that this was impossible given the rules in force for reconstruction and the presence of the trees)
> > >
> > > 7. representations, or promises, (makes the claims concerning the goal of reconstruction - a false and impossible claim)
> > >
> > > 8. transmits or causes to be transmitted by means of wire, radio or television communication (the operation of the webpage across the Internet falls under this category of wire)
> > >
> > > 9. any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or sounds (the webpage)
> > >
> > > 10. for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice (the webpage is designed to promote the Magna Mater Project and solicit donations)
> > >
> > > 11. shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both
> > >
> > > 12. If the violation affects a financial institution, such person shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both. (Not applicable)
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Senators, clearly under point 6 above knowing that the goal of rebuilding the temple could not realistically be achieved under these conditions that have existed since at the very least the Superintendent's office has had control of monuments in and outside of the Forum Romanum, this Senate/BoD sanctioned a false pretense. It was never good enough to obliquely mention on a different site, the Wiki, the problems and thus impossibility of rebuilding it. Put simply the entire webpage was constructed on a false premise and has been operating under that since it was created. The records of this House, and as I don't trust the probity and common sense of some of you, don't bother to delete them everything is saved, clearly indicate that the knowledge of this inherent inability to rebuild was well known. To solicit donations based on this is clearly, and let none of you even bother to debate this for you are merely sealing your own demise in any prosecution, a fraudulent pretense.
> > >
> > > You all better start waking up to the fact that we can no longer live in some fantasy bubble that Nova Roma is independent of macronational legal requirements or the consequences of breaching them - as a number of us have been telling you all for a number of years, albeit a number of you have deliberately ignored this by refusing abjectly to recognize the consequences of your inaction in this respect.
> > >
> > > As the magistrate charged this year with administering this absolute fraud, I put you all on notice early on that I would investigate it and report back to you. I have done so. Earlier while I was conducting my investigations took the precaution of placing a warning above the donation button and provided a link for prospective donors to take them to the relevant page in the Wiki. Now that it has become clear to me that the corporation and individual members, including myself, would be at increased and increasing daily risk by the continued operation of this project, I have exercised my authority and disabled the Magna Mater Project webpage. I am not prepared to tolerate this continued exposure under Federal and US law. It matters not that we have the webpage hosted outside of the USA, any more than it would if the corporation was in Europe and the website was in the US. This project, this flagrant abuse of common sense must cease operation forthwith.
> > >
> > > I also know that some of you are laboring under the massive illusion that we can use these funds to create a reflection area or other such nonsense. Divest yourselves immediately and finally of the idea of using funds obtained under a false premise for a purpose totally unrelated to the aim stated at the time the donations were solicited. That is illegal, utterly illegal and I suggest all of you with any common sense and respect for your own personal liberty to speak up and decry any such foolhardy nonsense.
> > >
> > > I have in my possession a CD that clearly states, in the words of the promoter of this scheme, that the purpose was to raise our profile with educational establishments. This is another nail in the coffin of this project, that should NEVER have been born in the first place. If we were to continue to raise money under what is a false pretense of rebuilding, divert that money to building a bench, waste part of it on a website promoting this falsehood, and then have the gall on video to clearly say that the ultimate purpose was to gratify the continuing desire of some here to see Nova Roma. and thus would contend any prosecutor worth his salt - themselves, be the recipient of academic validity and respect. That Senators would be the motive that would be claimed and is clearly supported by the words of Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus himself on this video. We have obtained monies under a false pretence to stroke the egos of some in this House who have exercised no probity whatsoever in spite of the increasing concerns of some of us concerning this project.
> > >
> > > I will tell you now that I am also investigating who exactly was the recipient of monies paid out by Nova Roma Inc. for the creation of the webpage. Franciscus Apulus Caesar worked and still works I believe for the company that ostensibly created the page. I am not prepared to trust any previous investigations into this matter and will endeavor to satisfy myself as to who actually created it and who received the money, be it by way of a company, a sub-contractor or an employee who received a bonus. Put simply this was not acceptable that there was not greater distance between someone on the Senate/BoD, a one time consul, an arch proponent of this scheme and the recipient of monies for work done.
> > >
> > > In short Senators the corporation and all those of you who have actively promoted this are up to your necks potentially in some very serious and deep waters. Do not even bother to advance the defense that no one minded, or that no one really knew or understood. You were told enough times - some of you making the disbursements and advocating for this project, and you flatly ignored those warnings. I insist that this project be terminated and all monies refunded. I also insist that no expenditure whatsoever take place from this point in respect of this. I also warn all of you that I will not hesitate to protect myself and other s in this house if there is any substantive move to counter my actions.
> > >
> > > In order to protect the corporation by demonstrating responsibility I invite all those who have actively pursued this project with a carefree zeal and reckless abandonment of any sense of duty and probity, in the face of clear evidence that reconstruction was not possible, to step down as BoD members and members of this House. In any other corporate setting this would be enforced immediately. The days of a casual disregard for the laws of the land - not our insignificant by-laws, but real law, ended a long time ago. The amount of the money involved is irrelevant too.
> > >
> > > We are in an election time for my long awaited and over due colleague. Whoever that is, they better be aware that I will expect them to fall in line with the necessary steps to protect the corporation and any more investors from being duped. I will not tolerate the grandstanding that goes on over this wretched scheme from my colleague. Two of the candidates I know I can rely on to support me. I expect all other officers of the corporation to fall in step on this one, and save any spluttering about who is superior to who, or someone's dignitas. This is a matter of potential criminal liability and personal liberty and corporate survival. Those of you who the other two candidates may listen to, make them aware of the seriousness of the situation.
> > >
> > > Finally, just to hone your interest I am investigating a report that a potential donor has already made a complaint to as yet unidentified US Department of Justice concerning wire fraud. Regardless of whether this turns out to be substantive - it is now time to start behaving with serious intent on this matter.
> > >
> > > Govern yourselves accordingly.
> > >
> > > Optime valete
> > >
> > > Gnaeus Iulius Caesar
> > > Aedilis Curulis
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > Vous voulez savoir ce que vous pouvez faire avec le nouveau Windows Live ? Lancez-vous !
> > > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/default.aspx
> > >
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63349 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
This brings up my post in the senate regarding Section 602 and section 603 of the Maine Non Profit Act - of which we are not in compliance.

Where are the annual reports?

Where is this alleged report? It certainly is not in the Senate file section. Why don't you reproduce this alleged report for us?

Vale,

Sulla




--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> M. Hortensia Quiritibusque spd;
> if you want to know what is going on with the Magna Mater project just as T.Iulius Sabinus, last years consul who was very involved with the project.
>
> Sabinus and Equestria Laeca worked closely together, if Gn Iulius Caesar or G. Equitius Cato really cared to find out the numbers and what was going on, all they had to do was ask Sabinus and Equestria.
>
> Our finacial statement was posted last year for public inspection, it was a very important task our Consuls Sabinus and Piscinus accomplished.
>
> Just like the elections, where a simple request to a tribune or our Chief Information Officer C. Curius Saturninus would have immediately answered questions. But neither did.
>
> So if you genuinely want to know ask those involved. I've provided the information. I have no interest in perpetuating political feuds. I have recipes to make, research to do, Latin to study. Real life things.
> Marca Hortensia Maior
>
>
> In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Diana Octavia Aventina" <roman.babe@> wrote:
> >
> > Salve Caesar,
> >
> > I used to be the quaestor for the MM project I think in 2004. I kept very
> > strict records of all of the donations and also on who had the money in
> > their possession since donations were taken in by numerous people. While I
> > never suspected anyone of putting money in their pocket, I couldn't figure
> > out what the heck they were going to do with the money. All I knew is that
> > they wanted to build a website that would cost like ten times more than any
> > website that I'd ever heard of. It all seemed like a bunch of blah blah
> > blah and pipe dreams to me.
> >
> > Vale,
> > Diana
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63350 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: Corporate Compliance
Salve Sulla,

While not a lawyer or even a paralegal, I work in the tax & Legal department
of a large multinational (70000 employees). I am very familiar with articles
of incorporation and by-laws. Only a few weeks ago I posted somewhere that
NR's BoD meetings are not legal because they take place by email. I had
totally forgotten that NR also needs an annual meeting and an annual report.
Besides that any law that NR passes ned to be in hard copy, signed and filed
with the corporate records of the company. That wasn't done either.

Is there anyway that NR can just disolve the corporation and just be a club?

Vale,
Diana


----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Woolwine" <l_cornelius_sulla@...>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 6:00 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Corporate Compliance


Ladies and gentlemen here is your lesson on Corporate compliance for the
evening. This was a post I generated to the Senate list.

Ave Conscript Fathers,

In my never ending research I have come across a very serious issue that
Nova Roma's board of directors needs to address in all due haste.

According to Section 602 and 603 Nova Roma has never fully been in
compliance with these sections which in a nutshell require us (NR) to notify
all members who have voting eligibility of the elections of officers:

http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/statutes/13-B/title13-Bsec603.html

1. Written notice of meetings. Unless otherwise provided in the articles of
incorporation or the bylaws, written notice stating the place, day and hour
of the meeting and, in case of a special meeting, the purpose or purposes
for which the meeting is called, shall be delivered not less than 10 nor
more than 50 days before the date of the meeting, either personally or by
mail, by or at the direction of the president or the secretary, or the
officers or persons calling the meeting, to each member entitled to vote at
such meeting. If mailed, such notice shall be deemed to be delivered when
deposited in the United States mail addressed to the member at his address
as it appears on the records of the corporation, with postage thereon
prepaid.

So, given our lack of specificity in our bylaws - NR needed to provide
written notification to each member who has the ability to vote. What NR
has essentially created is a new class of member a third class if you will -
those who are able to receive email (the first and second class are the
Assidui/nonAssidui class). This also goes to notifications about dues and
votes in general - such notification, per Maine Law - must be done in
writing and thusly via surface mail.

The other issue is the lack of an annual meeting which must be duly
advertised. Thusly, by failure to be in compliant with sectino 603 - we
become automatically non-complaint per section 602.2 which states:

2. Annual meetings. A meeting shall be held annually at such time as may be
provided in the articles of incorporation or bylaws. If there shall be a
failure, for whatever reason, to hold the annual meeting for a period of 30
days after the date for such meeting specified in the bylaws or articles of
incorporation, or if no date has been specified, for a period of 13 months
after the organization of the corporation or after its last annual meeting,
a substitute annual meeting may be called by any person or persons entitled
to call a special meeting of the members.

While we can hold elections for our magistrates during the annual meeting we
have failed to uphold issues of fidicuary duty in that NR has failed to
disclose its annual reports and to allow access to said information to our
membership -as stated in Section 1620

http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/Statutes/13-C/title13-Csec1620.html

In this I am going to disclose the entire statute:

1. Financial statements. No later than 5 months after the close of each
fiscal year, each corporation that is not a close corporation shall prepare
annual financial statements, which may be consolidated or combined
statements of the corporation and one or more of its subsidiaries, as
appropriate, that include a balance sheet as of the end of the fiscal year,
an income statement for that year, and a statement of changes in
shareholders' equity for the year unless that information appears elsewhere
in the financial statements. If financial statements are prepared for the
corporation on the basis of generally accepted accounting principles, the
annual financial statements must also be prepared on that basis.
[ 2001, c. 640, Pt. A, §2 (NEW); 2001, c. 640, Pt. B, §7 (AFF) .]
2. Written demand for copy of financial statement. Upon written demand of
any shareholder of a corporation, the corporation shall mail to that
shareholder a copy of the most recent annual financial statement prepared in
accordance with subsection 1. If the annual financial statement is reported
upon by a public accountant, the accountant's report must accompany it. If
the annual financial statement is not reported upon by a public accountant,
the statement must be accompanied by a statement of the president or the
person responsible for the corporation's accounting records:
A. Stating the reporter's reasonable belief whether the statement was
prepared on the basis of generally accepted accounting principles and, if
not, describing the basis of preparation; and [2001, c. 640, Pt. A, §2
(NEW); 2001, c. 640, Pt. B, §7 (AFF).]
B. Describing any respects in which the statement was not prepared on a
basis of accounting consistent with the statement prepared for the preceding
year. [2001, c. 640, Pt. A, §2 (NEW); 2001, c. 640, Pt. B, §7 (AFF).]
[ 2001, c. 640, Pt. A, §2 (NEW); 2001, c. 640, Pt. B, §7 (AFF) .]
3. Restrictions on disclosure of financial statement. The articles of
incorporation or bylaws of a corporation may impose reasonable restrictions
regarding the disclosure of financial information as a condition to delivery
of an annual financial statement to a shareholder in accordance with this
section.

With all due respect - Nova Roma needs to get it's corporate house in order,
in all due haste. We need to make sure that we are in compliance with all
laws and regulations and there is no better time than the present to begin
work in that regards. The elections are not a substitution to the annual
meeting!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63351 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: Corporate Compliance
Ave,

I used to be a paralegal back in the day. Now I am a corporate officer and Comptroller for a construction company in Phoenix; and I teach college (including Ethics).

The email aspect to the BoD meeting per the Maine Not Profit Act is something that I am researching.

But, yes any Not for Profit Corporation in Maine must have an annual meeting for all members able to vote. This raises a number of issues for NR. Then you have the additional issue of the Annual Report. Yes it needs to be available per written request - Personally, I think it should be on the website.

Yes, we could dissolve the corporation and become a club - though there are probably implications with the 501c3 status and tax deductions (which is another issue entirely).

Vale,

Sulla


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Diana Octavia Aventina" <roman.babe@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Sulla,
>
> While not a lawyer or even a paralegal, I work in the tax & Legal department
> of a large multinational (70000 employees). I am very familiar with articles
> of incorporation and by-laws. Only a few weeks ago I posted somewhere that
> NR's BoD meetings are not legal because they take place by email. I had
> totally forgotten that NR also needs an annual meeting and an annual report.
> Besides that any law that NR passes ned to be in hard copy, signed and filed
> with the corporate records of the company. That wasn't done either.
>
> Is there anyway that NR can just disolve the corporation and just be a club?
>
> Vale,
> Diana
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert Woolwine" <l_cornelius_sulla@...>
> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 6:00 AM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Corporate Compliance
>
>
> Ladies and gentlemen here is your lesson on Corporate compliance for the
> evening. This was a post I generated to the Senate list.
>
> Ave Conscript Fathers,
>
> In my never ending research I have come across a very serious issue that
> Nova Roma's board of directors needs to address in all due haste.
>
> According to Section 602 and 603 Nova Roma has never fully been in
> compliance with these sections which in a nutshell require us (NR) to notify
> all members who have voting eligibility of the elections of officers:
>
> http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/statutes/13-B/title13-Bsec603.html
>
> 1. Written notice of meetings. Unless otherwise provided in the articles of
> incorporation or the bylaws, written notice stating the place, day and hour
> of the meeting and, in case of a special meeting, the purpose or purposes
> for which the meeting is called, shall be delivered not less than 10 nor
> more than 50 days before the date of the meeting, either personally or by
> mail, by or at the direction of the president or the secretary, or the
> officers or persons calling the meeting, to each member entitled to vote at
> such meeting. If mailed, such notice shall be deemed to be delivered when
> deposited in the United States mail addressed to the member at his address
> as it appears on the records of the corporation, with postage thereon
> prepaid.
>
> So, given our lack of specificity in our bylaws - NR needed to provide
> written notification to each member who has the ability to vote. What NR
> has essentially created is a new class of member a third class if you will -
> those who are able to receive email (the first and second class are the
> Assidui/nonAssidui class). This also goes to notifications about dues and
> votes in general - such notification, per Maine Law - must be done in
> writing and thusly via surface mail.
>
> The other issue is the lack of an annual meeting which must be duly
> advertised. Thusly, by failure to be in compliant with sectino 603 - we
> become automatically non-complaint per section 602.2 which states:
>
> 2. Annual meetings. A meeting shall be held annually at such time as may be
> provided in the articles of incorporation or bylaws. If there shall be a
> failure, for whatever reason, to hold the annual meeting for a period of 30
> days after the date for such meeting specified in the bylaws or articles of
> incorporation, or if no date has been specified, for a period of 13 months
> after the organization of the corporation or after its last annual meeting,
> a substitute annual meeting may be called by any person or persons entitled
> to call a special meeting of the members.
>
> While we can hold elections for our magistrates during the annual meeting we
> have failed to uphold issues of fidicuary duty in that NR has failed to
> disclose its annual reports and to allow access to said information to our
> membership -as stated in Section 1620
>
> http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/Statutes/13-C/title13-Csec1620.html
>
> In this I am going to disclose the entire statute:
>
> 1. Financial statements. No later than 5 months after the close of each
> fiscal year, each corporation that is not a close corporation shall prepare
> annual financial statements, which may be consolidated or combined
> statements of the corporation and one or more of its subsidiaries, as
> appropriate, that include a balance sheet as of the end of the fiscal year,
> an income statement for that year, and a statement of changes in
> shareholders' equity for the year unless that information appears elsewhere
> in the financial statements. If financial statements are prepared for the
> corporation on the basis of generally accepted accounting principles, the
> annual financial statements must also be prepared on that basis.
> [ 2001, c. 640, Pt. A, §2 (NEW); 2001, c. 640, Pt. B, §7 (AFF) .]
> 2. Written demand for copy of financial statement. Upon written demand of
> any shareholder of a corporation, the corporation shall mail to that
> shareholder a copy of the most recent annual financial statement prepared in
> accordance with subsection 1. If the annual financial statement is reported
> upon by a public accountant, the accountant's report must accompany it. If
> the annual financial statement is not reported upon by a public accountant,
> the statement must be accompanied by a statement of the president or the
> person responsible for the corporation's accounting records:
> A. Stating the reporter's reasonable belief whether the statement was
> prepared on the basis of generally accepted accounting principles and, if
> not, describing the basis of preparation; and [2001, c. 640, Pt. A, §2
> (NEW); 2001, c. 640, Pt. B, §7 (AFF).]
> B. Describing any respects in which the statement was not prepared on a
> basis of accounting consistent with the statement prepared for the preceding
> year. [2001, c. 640, Pt. A, §2 (NEW); 2001, c. 640, Pt. B, §7 (AFF).]
> [ 2001, c. 640, Pt. A, §2 (NEW); 2001, c. 640, Pt. B, §7 (AFF) .]
> 3. Restrictions on disclosure of financial statement. The articles of
> incorporation or bylaws of a corporation may impose reasonable restrictions
> regarding the disclosure of financial information as a condition to delivery
> of an annual financial statement to a shareholder in accordance with this
> section.
>
> With all due respect - Nova Roma needs to get it's corporate house in order,
> in all due haste. We need to make sure that we are in compliance with all
> laws and regulations and there is no better time than the present to begin
> work in that regards. The elections are not a substitution to the annual
> meeting!
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63352 From: vallenporter Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: Re: Corporate Compliance
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Diana Octavia Aventina" <roman.babe@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Sulla,
>
> While not a lawyer or even a paralegal, I work in the tax & Legal department
> of a large multinational (70000 employees). I am very familiar with articles
> of incorporation and by-laws. Only a few weeks ago I posted somewhere that
> NR's BoD meetings are not legal because they take place by email. I had
> totally forgotten that NR also needs an annual meeting and an annual report.
> Besides that any law that NR passes ned to be in hard copy, signed and filed
> with the corporate records of the company. That wasn't done either.
>
> Is there anyway that NR can just disolve the corporation and just be a club?


Salve Diana

RE: your asking about :Is there anyway that NR can just disolve the corporation and just be a club?
well we could. the down side to that is we lose the 501(C{3}) tax stuff.If we get the Corporate Compliance on all the levels it needs done.
THEN we can go out and get grants etc.they are not that hrad to get , most of the time we just need to get our ducks in a a line.
also this Corporate Compliance is stoping some of us from holding meeting or starting Biz that will bring in funds to NR. ( my roamn street food stall/cart comes to mind.
vale Marcus Cornelius Felix





>
> Vale,
> Diana
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert Woolwine" <l_cornelius_sulla@...>
> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 6:00 AM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Corporate Compliance
>
>
> Ladies and gentlemen here is your lesson on Corporate compliance for the
> evening. This was a post I generated to the Senate list.
>
> Ave Conscript Fathers,
>
> In my never ending research I have come across a very serious issue that
> Nova Roma's board of directors needs to address in all due haste.
>
> According to Section 602 and 603 Nova Roma has never fully been in
> compliance with these sections which in a nutshell require us (NR) to notify
> all members who have voting eligibility of the elections of officers:
>
> http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/statutes/13-B/title13-Bsec603.html
>
> 1. Written notice of meetings. Unless otherwise provided in the articles of
> incorporation or the bylaws, written notice stating the place, day and hour
> of the meeting and, in case of a special meeting, the purpose or purposes
> for which the meeting is called, shall be delivered not less than 10 nor
> more than 50 days before the date of the meeting, either personally or by
> mail, by or at the direction of the president or the secretary, or the
> officers or persons calling the meeting, to each member entitled to vote at
> such meeting. If mailed, such notice shall be deemed to be delivered when
> deposited in the United States mail addressed to the member at his address
> as it appears on the records of the corporation, with postage thereon
> prepaid.
>
> So, given our lack of specificity in our bylaws - NR needed to provide
> written notification to each member who has the ability to vote. What NR
> has essentially created is a new class of member a third class if you will -
> those who are able to receive email (the first and second class are the
> Assidui/nonAssidui class). This also goes to notifications about dues and
> votes in general - such notification, per Maine Law - must be done in
> writing and thusly via surface mail.
>
> The other issue is the lack of an annual meeting which must be duly
> advertised. Thusly, by failure to be in compliant with sectino 603 - we
> become automatically non-complaint per section 602.2 which states:
>
> 2. Annual meetings. A meeting shall be held annually at such time as may be
> provided in the articles of incorporation or bylaws. If there shall be a
> failure, for whatever reason, to hold the annual meeting for a period of 30
> days after the date for such meeting specified in the bylaws or articles of
> incorporation, or if no date has been specified, for a period of 13 months
> after the organization of the corporation or after its last annual meeting,
> a substitute annual meeting may be called by any person or persons entitled
> to call a special meeting of the members.
>
> While we can hold elections for our magistrates during the annual meeting we
> have failed to uphold issues of fidicuary duty in that NR has failed to
> disclose its annual reports and to allow access to said information to our
> membership -as stated in Section 1620
>
> http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/Statutes/13-C/title13-Csec1620.html
>
> In this I am going to disclose the entire statute:
>
> 1. Financial statements. No later than 5 months after the close of each
> fiscal year, each corporation that is not a close corporation shall prepare
> annual financial statements, which may be consolidated or combined
> statements of the corporation and one or more of its subsidiaries, as
> appropriate, that include a balance sheet as of the end of the fiscal year,
> an income statement for that year, and a statement of changes in
> shareholders' equity for the year unless that information appears elsewhere
> in the financial statements. If financial statements are prepared for the
> corporation on the basis of generally accepted accounting principles, the
> annual financial statements must also be prepared on that basis.
> [ 2001, c. 640, Pt. A, §2 (NEW); 2001, c. 640, Pt. B, §7 (AFF) .]
> 2. Written demand for copy of financial statement. Upon written demand of
> any shareholder of a corporation, the corporation shall mail to that
> shareholder a copy of the most recent annual financial statement prepared in
> accordance with subsection 1. If the annual financial statement is reported
> upon by a public accountant, the accountant's report must accompany it. If
> the annual financial statement is not reported upon by a public accountant,
> the statement must be accompanied by a statement of the president or the
> person responsible for the corporation's accounting records:
> A. Stating the reporter's reasonable belief whether the statement was
> prepared on the basis of generally accepted accounting principles and, if
> not, describing the basis of preparation; and [2001, c. 640, Pt. A, §2
> (NEW); 2001, c. 640, Pt. B, §7 (AFF).]
> B. Describing any respects in which the statement was not prepared on a
> basis of accounting consistent with the statement prepared for the preceding
> year. [2001, c. 640, Pt. A, §2 (NEW); 2001, c. 640, Pt. B, §7 (AFF).]
> [ 2001, c. 640, Pt. A, §2 (NEW); 2001, c. 640, Pt. B, §7 (AFF) .]
> 3. Restrictions on disclosure of financial statement. The articles of
> incorporation or bylaws of a corporation may impose reasonable restrictions
> regarding the disclosure of financial information as a condition to delivery
> of an annual financial statement to a shareholder in accordance with this
> section.
>
> With all due respect - Nova Roma needs to get it's corporate house in order,
> in all due haste. We need to make sure that we are in compliance with all
> laws and regulations and there is no better time than the present to begin
> work in that regards. The elections are not a substitution to the annual
> meeting!
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63353 From: M.CVR.COMPLVTENSIS Date: 2009-04-17
Subject: BECAUSE THE ARGUMENTS OF Cn.IULIUS CAESAR ARE WRONG
Attachments :
    Salvete

    The Aedilis Curulis Iulius Caesar has based the suspension of the MMP website in the word "restoration" arguing that restoration means only rebuild or reconstructions (make it as new).


    For those of us who do not know how works the archaelogical preservation and conservation:

    There are some clear and specific standards relating to the preservation, conservation, restoration and value of archaeological remains. These rules are followed by all countries.

    The principal guidelines are documented by the UNESCO and various international conventions:

    -Venice Charter, UNESCO, Venice may  1964. (http://www.international.icomos.org/charters/venice_e.htm)
    -Australia Charter (Burra Chater) ICOMOS, Australia, 1981.
    -Rules of Quito, Ecuador, nov-dec, 1967.
    -UNESCO, Nirobi, 1976.
    -UNESCO, Antigua Guatemala Sept, 1977.
    -El Salvador, Jun, 1976.
    -La Valette, 1992.
    -ICOMOS, New Zealand, Oct,1992.

    and specifically for the MMP in Italy by the rules issued by the Ministero per i Beni e le Attivitá Culturali.

    According these standards:

    The objective of conservation and restoration is to safeguard. Restoration is only one step in safeguarding. This implies permanent care. To conserve does not end with the restoration of the monument; it also attempts to go much farther trying to guarantee its permanence for future generations. Premises:
    1.The principal objective of conservation is to perpetuate the historic testimony without the denaturalization of its cultural meaning.
    2.Tourism can be a useful resource that we should use as a generator of currency and well being. But it is not the most important object.
    3.Visitors represent a factor of deterioration. This is why we should work in the prevention and protection of this danger.
    4.Restoration is only one method of safeguarding as mentioned in article 9 to help “keep an exceptional character”.
    5.To restore is not always the correct thing to do. If the monument is well preserved, our mission will be use the appropriate methods to maintain and guarantee its permanence. 

    To restore
    It literally means to recover or to repair. For the architectural pieces we cannot use this meaning literally. We need to analyze the reality of each archaeological monument. Now it is opportune to mention Cesar Brandi, when he said “To restore means to intervene with any object with the idea of giving it back its efficiency whatever product of human activity ”(Gonzalez,1977:3)
    This is seen as a correct definition, but it also has some limitations. Here we have to consider some primordial aspects:
    1) For the efficiency  of  any object or product of the human activity, it has to be given back it’s function, for which it was made.
    2) The restoration, as mentioned by Brandi, is a process of intervention that will make efficient any product of human creation. It is indispensable that the object be restored to reclaim its efficiency.
    3) In our case, archaeological sites are usually in danger of destruction. Consequently they are unique and irreparable  sites .

    The Colosseum of Roma was restored but not rebuilt.  The Aquaeductus of Segovia was restored but not rebuilt. The Parthenon in Athens  was restored but not rebuilt. Roma, Ostia, Segobriga, Lancia, Emporiae, Ocilis, Aegypt............do you have visited these cities or countries?

    Nobody in their right mind can claim that restoration means returning to their original state.

    With the archaeological restoration the monuments and the remains are well preserved.

    I am very sorry that our culture is left in the query to the meaning of a word in the dictionary, that means that we need to enhance our culture, especially in the case of the preservation of our Roman heritage.

    Conclusion: the announce of the desire of (archaelogical) restoration of an archaeological site is not a crime and cannot be it, crimes are the alteration and/or destruction of archaeological remains.

    The Magna Mater Project  is a project to preservation, conservation, restoration and start value of archaeological remains of the ancient Temple of  Magna Mater.

    The Magna Mater Project  follows the line of the prof. Pensabene's report to UNESCO,  also presented on the MMP web site in pdf format. (Because the site is closed the pdf is attached to this message)

    Valete

    M. Cur. Complutensis
    Consul



    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63354 From: livia_plauta Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: Re: MMP
    Salve Cato,
    Nova Roma DID NOT collect money for building a temple.
    Nova Roma DID NOT solicit money for the sole purpose of restoring the MM temple either.
    Nova Roma solicited money for a series of goals which include enhancing and valorizing the MM temple site, and the long-term goal of restoration.

    The MM project website was taken down without warning, so currently nobody can go and check what it said, but the project goals are summed up in the FAQ that can be found here:

    http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Magna_Mater_project

    I quote:
    "What is the purpose of the Magna Mater Project?
    The ultimate goal is the restoration of the temple, but this is honestly very long term, especially when one takes into account our current financial situation. But even having money, there are several other small, but necessary steps which are already under development to 'restore' the temple, in a wider significance of the meaning. To restore it also means to 'valorize' the sancturary, its historical and archaeological aspects, the significance of the cult of the Magna Mater. Put another way, 'enhancing' would be perhaps a better term for these first steps of the Project. Periodically, a bulletin such as this report is published to keep the citizenry appraised of project developments."

    This formulation is so vague, that it may easily include the current goals for the MM project (listed on the same page, in the senatus consultum), so that nobody can accuse NR of fraud.

    Stating that NR can be accused of fraud because of the MM project is a lie, and furthermore a lie which damages the credibility of NR.


    Vale,
    Livia

    >
    > Cato omnibus in foro SPD
    >
    > Salvete.
    >
    > I am in the wilderness and have little access to Internet and write this on my iPhone but I have to correct here: the fraud is not on the part of an individual per se it is the act of collecting money for a temple that we knew would never be built. The whole corporation becomes liable if, after knowing the temple could not be restored we continued to collect money for that purpose. That we did do over the Internet opens this up to wire fraud. I have written several messages to the Senate which I have authorized to be copied to this Forum. Why do we insist on following the least responsible course of action possible? It boggles the mind.
    >
    > Valete
    >
    > Cato
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63355 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: Re: BECAUSE THE ARGUMENTS OF Cn.IULIUS CAESAR ARE WRONG [1 Attachmen
    Q. Valerius Poplicola Quaestor et Flamen Falacer M. Curiato Complutensi
    Consuli S. P. V. D.

    Be it as it may that the Magna Mater Project is completely legitimate -- I
    for one cannot make a judgment -- wouldn't it be better to temporarily
    suspend the project until a more thorough investigation by our own and
    American authorities?

    Pax.

    --------------------------------------------------
    From: "M.CVR.COMPLVTENSIS" <complutensis@...>
    Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 5:13 PM
    To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
    Subject: [Nova-Roma] BECAUSE THE ARGUMENTS OF Cn.IULIUS CAESAR ARE WRONG [1
    Attachment]

    > Salvete
    >
    > The Aedilis Curulis Iulius Caesar has based the suspension of the MMP
    > website in the word "restoration" arguing that restoration means only
    > rebuild or reconstructions (make it as new).
    >
    > For those of us who do not know how works the archaelogical preservation
    > and conservation:
    >
    > There are some clear and specific standards relating to the
    > preservation, conservation, restoration and value of archaeological
    > remains. These rules are followed by all countries.
    >
    > The principal guidelines are documented by the UNESCO and various
    > international conventions:
    >
    > /-Venice Charter, UNESCO, Venice may 1964.
    > (http://www.international.icomos.org/charters/venice_e.htm)/
    > /-Australia Charter (Burra Chater) ICOMOS, Australia, 1981./
    > /-Rules of Quito, Ecuador, nov-dec, 1967./
    > /-UNESCO, Nirobi, 1976./
    > /-UNESCO, Antigua Guatemala Sept, 1977./
    > /-El Salvador, Jun, 1976./
    > /-La Valette, 1992./
    > /-ICOMOS, New Zealand, Oct,1992.
    > /
    >
    > and specifically for the MMP in Italy by the rules issued by the
    > Ministero per i Beni e le Attivitá Culturali.
    >
    > According these standards:
    >
    > The objective of conservation and restoration is to safeguard.
    > Restoration is only one step in safeguarding. This implies *permanent
    > care*. To conserve does not end with the restoration of the monument; it
    > also attempts to go much farther trying to guarantee its permanence for
    > future generations. Premises:
    > 1.The principal objective of conservation is to perpetuate the historic
    > testimony without the denaturalization of its cultural meaning.
    > 2.Tourism can be a useful resource that we should use as a generator of
    > currency and well being. But it is not the most important object.
    > 3.Visitors represent a factor of deterioration. This is why we should
    > work in the prevention and protection of this danger.
    > 4.Restoration is only one method of safeguarding as mentioned in article
    > 9 to help "keep an exceptional character".
    > 5.To restore is not always the correct thing to do. If the monument is
    > well preserved, our mission will be use the appropriate methods to
    > maintain and guarantee its permanence.
    >
    > *To restore
    > *It literally means to recover or to repair. For the architectural
    > pieces we cannot use this meaning literally. We need to analyze the
    > reality of each archaeological monument. Now it is opportune to mention
    > Cesar Brandi, when he said "To restore means to intervene with any
    > object with the idea of giving it back its _efficiency_ whatever product
    > of human activity "(Gonzalez,1977:3)
    > This is seen as a correct definition, but it also has some limitations.
    > Here we have to consider some primordial aspects:
    > 1) For the efficiency of any object or product of the human activity,
    > it has to be given back it's function, for which it was made.
    > 2) The restoration, as mentioned by Brandi, is a process of intervention
    > that will make efficient any product of human creation. It is
    > indispensable that the object be restored to reclaim its efficiency.
    > 3) In our case, archaeological sites are usually in danger of
    > destruction. Consequently they are unique and irreparable sites .
    >
    > The Colosseum of Roma was restored but not rebuilt. The Aquaeductus of
    > Segovia was restored but not rebuilt. The Parthenon in Athens was
    > restored but not rebuilt. Roma, Ostia, Segobriga, Lancia, Emporiae,
    > Ocilis, Aegypt............do you have visited these cities or countries?
    >
    > Nobody in their right mind can claim that restoration means returning to
    > their original state.
    >
    > With the archaeological restoration the monuments and the remains are
    > well preserved.
    >
    > I am very sorry that our culture is left in the query to the meaning of
    > a word in the dictionary, that means that we need to enhance our
    > culture, especially in the case of the preservation of our Roman heritage.
    >
    > Conclusion: the announce of the desire of (archaelogical) restoration of
    > an archaeological site is not a crime and cannot be it, crimes are the
    > alteration and/or destruction of archaeological remains.
    >
    > The Magna Mater Project is a project to preservation, conservation,
    > restoration and start value of archaeological remains of the ancient
    > Temple of Magna Mater.
    >
    > The Magna Mater Project follows the line of the prof. Pensabene's
    > report to UNESCO, also presented on the MMP web site in pdf format.
    > (Because the site is closed the pdf is attached to this message)
    >
    > Valete
    >
    > M. Cur. Complutensis
    > Consul
    >
    >
    >
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63356 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: Re: BECAUSE THE ARGUMENTS OF Cn.IULIUS CAESAR ARE WRONG [1 Attachmen
    Cn. Iulius Caesar SPD.

    I am sure all our donors went to this amount of reaerch over the meaning of the word restore and fully understood the utter impossibility of restoration.
     
    Yes....of course they did Consul....right. Sure.
     
    And for your next rabbit out of the hat to try to prove that restoration actually meant anything we wanted it to mean then and now?
     
    Optime valete

    --- On Fri, 4/17/09, M.CVR.COMPLVTENSIS <complutensis@...> wrote:
    From: M.CVR.COMPLVTENSIS <complutensis@...>
    Subject: [Nova-Roma] BECAUSE THE ARGUMENTS OF Cn.IULIUS CAESAR ARE WRONG [1 Attachment]
    To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    Date: Friday, April 17, 2009, 4:13 PM

    [Attachment(s) from M.CVR.COMPLVTENSIS included below]

    Salvete

    The Aedilis Curulis Iulius Caesar has based the suspension of the MMP website in the word "restoration" arguing that restoration means only rebuild or reconstructions (make it as new).


    For those of us who do not know how works the archaelogical preservation and conservation:

    There are some clear and specific standards relating to the preservation, conservation, restoration and value of archaeological remains. These rules are followed by all countries.

    The principal guidelines are documented by the UNESCO and various international conventions:

    -Venice Charter, UNESCO, Venice may  1964. (http://www.international.icomos.org/charters/venice_e.htm)
    -Australia Charter (Burra Chater) ICOMOS, Australia, 1981.
    -Rules of Quito, Ecuador, nov-dec, 1967.
    -UNESCO, Nirobi, 1976.
    -UNESCO, Antigua Guatemala Sept, 1977.
    -El Salvador, Jun, 1976.
    -La Valette, 1992.
    -ICOMOS, New Zealand, Oct,1992.

    and specifically for the MMP in Italy by the rules issued by the Ministero per i Beni e le Attivitá Culturali.

    According these standards:

    The objective of conservation and restoration is to safeguard. Restoration is only one step in safeguarding. This implies permanent care. To conserve does not end with the restoration of the monument; it also attempts to go much farther trying to guarantee its permanence for future generations. Premises:
    1.The principal objective of conservation is to perpetuate the historic testimony without the denaturalization of its cultural meaning.
    2.Tourism can be a useful resource that we should use as a generator of currency and well being. But it is not the most important object.
    3.Visitors represent a factor of deterioration. This is why we should work in the prevention and protection of this danger.
    4.Restoration is only one method of safeguarding as mentioned in article 9 to help “keep an exceptional character”.
    5.To restore is not always the correct thing to do. If the monument is well preserved, our mission will be use the appropriate methods to maintain and guarantee its permanence. 

    To restore
    It literally means to recover or to repair. For the architectural pieces we cannot use this meaning literally. We need to analyze the reality of each archaeological monument. Now it is opportune to mention Cesar Brandi, when he said “To restore means to intervene with any object with the idea of giving it back its efficiency whatever product of human activity ”(Gonzalez,1977:3)
    This is seen as a correct definition, but it also has some limitations. Here we have to consider some primordial aspects:
    1) For the efficiency  of  any object or product of the human activity, it has to be given back it’s function, for which it was made.
    2) The restoration, as mentioned by Brandi, is a process of intervention that will make efficient any product of human creation. It is indispensable that the object be restored to reclaim its efficiency.
    3) In our case, archaeological sites are usually in danger of destruction. Consequently they are unique and irreparable  sites .

    The Colosseum of Roma was restored but not rebuilt.  The Aquaeductus of Segovia was restored but not rebuilt. The Parthenon in Athens  was restored but not rebuilt. Roma, Ostia, Segobriga, Lancia, Emporiae, Ocilis, Aegypt............do you have visited these cities or countries?

    Nobody in their right mind can claim that restoration means returning to their original state.

    With the archaeological restoration the monuments and the remains are well preserved.

    I am very sorry that our culture is left in the query to the meaning of a word in the dictionary, that means that we need to enhance our culture, especially in the case of the preservation of our Roman heritage.

    Conclusion: the announce of the desire of (archaelogical) restoration of an archaeological site is not a crime and cannot be it, crimes are the alteration and/or destruction of archaeological remains.

    The Magna Mater Project  is a project to preservation, conservation, restoration and start value of archaeological remains of the ancient Temple of  Magna Mater.

    The Magna Mater Project  follows the line of the prof. Pensabene's report to UNESCO,  also presented on the MMP web site in pdf format. (Because the site is closed the pdf is attached to this message)

    Valete

    M. Cur. Complutensis
    Consul




    Attachment(s) from M.CVR.COMPLVTENSIS

    1 of 1 File(s)


    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63357 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: Re: Fw: Back Alley Insults the Virgo Maxima
    Actually, it is a very Roman position.  The PM stood in as paterfamilias for the Vestales.  If a Vestal allowed the perpetual fire to fail, the PM was responsible for punishing the Vestal responsible.

    Aureliane


    -----Original Message-----
    From: Q. Valerius Poplicola <q.valerius.poplicola@...>
    To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    Sent: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 11:54 am
    Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Fw: Back Alley Insults the Virgo Maxima



    Q. Valerius Poplicola Fl. Galerio Aureliano SPD

    I was not speaking directly about this Virgo Maxima. Indeed, if I were, it
    would have been aired in the Collegium Pontificum, where we agreed to keep
    such discussions. Also, this "no authority except the Pontifex Maximus" is a
    very unRoman position indeed. The Senate and Consuls always held precedent,
    and if the Virgo Maxima engaged in sexual behavior, she could be prosecuted
    with or without the consent of the Pontifex Maximus.

    ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --
    From: <PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@ aol.com>
    Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 10:12 AM
    To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com>
    Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Fw: Back Alley Insults the Virgo Maxima

    > Fl. Galerius Aurelianus Q. Valerio Poplicola sal.
    >
    > If any citizen engages in posts that result in a loss of civility or order
    > on the official fora of Nova Roma, then that person is subject to warning
    > and moderation at the discretion of the praetores.
    >
    > The Virgo Vestalis Maxima is subject to no authority save that of the
    > Pontifex Maximus, so it is not for any other citizen, flamen, augur, or
    > pontifex to make a decision on whether or not what she posts is
    > irreligious. ? Each of the sacerdoes of the various cults is responsible to
    > act within a proper framework as established by the Declaration of the
    > Religio Romana, the Constitution, and the many edicta and discreta of our
    > organization.
    >
    > I have not seen that the Virgo Vestalis Maxima has acted in any manner
    > that is detrimental to her office or cultus.? If you feel otherwise, I
    > would kindly suggest that you bring it to the attention of the Pontifex
    > Maximus.
    >
    > As a private citizen and pontifex, I find it personally repugnant that any
    > member of the Senate or Collegium Pontificum would suggest on any list
    > (official or not)?that the Virgo Vestalis needs to get l***.? Anyone who
    > has done so lacks respect for the cultus of Vesta Mater and I personally
    > believe they are acting like swine.
    >
    > Vale.
    >
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Q. Valerius Poplicola <q.valerius.poplicol a@...>
    > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
    > Sent: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 3:31 pm
    > Subject: Re: WG: AW: [Nova-Roma] Re: Fw: Back Alley Insults the Virgo
    > Maxima
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > So what happens when the Virgo Vestalis Maxima insults others or posts
    > irreligious information?
    >
    > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --
    > From: "Titus Flavius Aquila" <titus.aquila@ yahoo.de>
    > Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 2:40 PM
    > To: <gaiuspopillius@ gmail.com>; <spqr753@msn. com>
    > Cc: <Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com>
    > Subject: WG: AW: [Nova-Roma] Re: Fw: Back Alley Insults the Virgo Maxima
    >
    >>
    >>
    >> Salvete Censores,
    >>
    >> I request actions against all citizens who have insulted the Virgo
    >> Maxima,
    >> if they do not apologize in person .
    >>
    >> Optime valete
    >>
    >> Titus Flavius Aquila
    >> Quaestor
    >> Accensus Consulibus
    >> Scriba Censoribus
    >> Legatus Pro Praetore Provincia Germania
    >> Collegium sodalitas proDIIS
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63358 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: Re: BECAUSE THE ARGUMENTS OF Cn.IULIUS CAESAR ARE WRONG [1 Attach...
    In a message dated 4/17/2009 3:16:09 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, complutensis@... writes:
    The Magna Mater Project  is a project to preservation, conservation, restoration and start value of archaeological remains of the ancient Temple of  Magna Mater.
    Excellent presentation Consul.  So the site remains closed?  Did you veto the veto of the Praetor to insure this?
     
    The problem is that we cannot go back and rewrite this site when it opened.  This is 2009.  This disclaimer should have been attached to it then, not now.  Now is too late.  People have been contributing monies to this site since 2002 with the expectation that it was being used to restore i.e, rebuild this temple.
     
    There was no intention to rebuild the temple.  Therefore we misdirected the people into giving us money.  You realize if this ever gets to court we as Nova Roma INC are going to have to sue the Italians that misadvised us to accept this, to cover our own asses?  
     
    When are we going to take a vote?
     
    Q. Fabius Maximus  


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    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63359 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    Fl. Galerius Aurelianus Q. Valerio Poplicola sal.

    Amice, I think you had better review the current tribuni because T. Aquila is no longer among our number.  I also agree that Gn. Iulio acted wrongly by deleting the MMP site.  That was not within the venue of his rights and prerogatives as I interpret the Constitution and by-laws of our organization.  I support the action of P. Memmio Albucio.

    Vale.


    -----Original Message-----
    From: Q. Valerius Poplicola <q.valerius.poplicola@...>
    To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    Sent: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 4:02 pm
    Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO



    I ask the tribuni, especially T. Aquila, to impose intercessio on this
    intercessio. Allowing this to stand can endanger the whole of Nova Roma. Why
    not just hold off until we can figure out what's going on?

    ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --
    From: "Publius Memmius Albucius" <albucius_aoe@ hotmail.com>
    Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 3:45 PM
    To: <senatusromanus@ yahoogroups. com>; "Gnaeus Iulius Caesar"
    <gnaeus.iulius. caesar@gmail. com>
    Cc: <nova-roma@yahoogrou ps.com>; <novaroma-announce@ yahoogroups. com>
    Subject: [Nova-Roma] MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO

    >
    >
    >
    > P. MEMMIUS ALBUCIUS praetor edict nb PR 62-03 throwing intercessio on a
    > decision taken by aedilis curulis Gn. Iulius Caesar
    >
    >
    > I, Publius Memmius Albucius, praetor, by the authority vested by the
    > constitution, the laws and the Senate of Nova Roma, and in view of the
    > existing rules;
    >
    >
    >
    > In view of the message sent to the Senate of Nova Roma today, a.d. XVI Kal
    > Maias 2762 auc (Th 16th of April 2009), by Aedilis curulis Gn. Iulius
    > Caesar (Senate "list", nb 14722), which tells especially:
    >
    >
    >
    > "(..)Now that it has become clear to me that the corporation and
    > individual members, including myself, would be at increased and increasing
    > daily risk by the continued operation of this project, I have exercised my
    > authority and disabled the Magna Mater Project webpage. I am not
    prepared
    > to tolerate this continued exposure under Federal and US law. It matters
    > not that we have the webpage hosted outside of the USA, any more than it
    > would if the corporation was in Europe and the website was in the US.(..)"
    >
    >
    >
    > After having verified that the web address
    > "http://www.magnamat erproject. org/en/home. php" was in effect technically
    > unavailable;
    >
    > Considering that the personal or political ideas of any magistrate, about
    > a project duly reassessed a few months before, by the Senate of Nova Roma,
    > as an important project supported by the Republic, does not authorize him
    > to try to escape her/his responsibilities who are, as aedile, to implement
    > the project, whatever be his own opinions on it;
    >
    >
    >
    > Considering that the arguments of fraud or illegality claimed by aedilis
    > Caesar may be seen as the fact that the aedilis does not want to apply the
    > Senatus consulta issued in 2761 auc or, at least, that he has not yet be
    > able to take since last January all necessary measures to implement the
    > project, and to find every appropriate means to update the Magna Mater web
    > site, and thus correct the defaults that, according aedilis Iulius, would
    > require an intervent
    ion and a conformity with NR Inc. incorporation local
    > law;
    >
    >
    >
    > Considering that such a behavior is a violation of the general legal rule,
    > well known by our Ancients, which say that "Nemo auditur propriam
    > turpitudinem allegans" ("nobody is allowed to invoke his own turpitude") ;
    >
    >
    >
    > Considering that the aedilis, who himself claims the right to "administer"
    > the project, has no other right but to just administer it, directly or
    > through a "project leader", and that a so important decision such as the
    > closing of the Project main web access, which is the main communication
    > medium of the Project for Nova Roma, is clearly beyond his field of
    > competencies, and falls into the Senate's ones;
    >
    >
    >
    > Considering therefore that Aedilis curulis has exceeded his powers;
    >
    >
    >
    > edict :
    >
    >
    >
    > Article 1
    >
    > The decision taken by aedilis Iulius Caesar to disable the Magna Mater
    > Project webpage is vetoed.
    >
    >
    > Article 2
    >
    >
    > As a consequence of the present intercessio, the Magna Mater Project web
    > site must be reintegrated, by aedilis Gn. Iulius Caesar or under his
    > responsibility, to its previous state.
    >
    >
    >
    > Article
    3
    >
    > It is reminded that any delay in the application of the prescription of
    > article 2 commits the individual responsibility of aedilis Gn. Iulius
    > Caesar.
    >
    >
    > Article 4
    >
    > Aedilis Gn. Iulius Caesar must, and every novaroman public officer is
    > required to, as far as they are concerned, enforce the present edict,
    > which will be published in the Tabularium Novae Romae and in Nova Roma
    > relevant internet 'discussion' lists, as well as notified to aedilis
    > Caesar.
    >
    >
    >
    > Issued in Condate, Gallia, a.d. IV a.d. XVI Kal Maias 2762 a.u.c. (Th 16th
    > of April 2009) during the consulate of M. Curiatius Complutensis and M.
    > Iulius Severus.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > ------------ --------- --------- ----aed. cur. Iulius' integral
    > message----- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
    >
    >
    >
    > Cn. Iulius Caesar SPD.
    >
    > Senators, we have a significant problem with the Magna Mater Project. As I
    > have earlier indicated here I have had a team working on what best to do
    > with the project for this year, Regardless of the Senatus Consultum passed
    > last year setting divergent paths for this project, from the long stated
    > aim and taking no regard for the con
    siderable effort that has been
    > expended in some quarters here to wordsmith this change of direction into
    > legitimacy, I must now as the magistrate charged with its administration
    > report the following.
    >
    > Firstly, from the point that it became apparent that the goal of
    > rebuilding the temple was not practical due to the general conditions laid
    > down regarding the use of original material and the presence of trees
    > imbedded in the foundations of the temple, the project not only became an
    > outstanding failure, it also became illegal to operate it. Illegal due the
    > requirements of Maine statutes in respect of advertising, but more
    > importantly under Federal US law. I quote:
    >
    > US Code Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 63 § 1343:
    >
    > Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to
    > defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or
    > fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, transmits or causes to
    > be transmitted by means of wire, radio, or television communication in
    > interstate or foreign commerce, any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or
    > sounds for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice, shall be
    > fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. If
    > the violation affects a financial institution, such person
    shall be fined
    > not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both.
    >
    > http://www4. law.cornell. edu/uscode/ 18/1343.html
    >
    > As I am sure some of you will be more concerned in keeping this utter
    > failure and now clear fraud alive, and refuse to even consider that
    > firstly it could be criminal or secondly that anyone will care or there be
    > consequences, let me first demonstrate why this is wire fraud. My comments
    > against the points to prove of this offence are in brackets.
    >
    > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --
    >
    > 1. Whoever (the Senate/BoD of Nova Roma (Inc) )
    >
    > 2. having devised or intending to devise (the Senate/BoD authorized its
    > creating and continuing operation)
    >
    > 3. any scheme or artifice (the Magna Mater Project)
    >
    > 4. to defraud (any prosecution would seek to prove intent to defraud
    > primarily but have (5) as an alternative grounds to indict the Senate/BoD
    > members and/or corporation)
    >
    > 5. or for obtaining money or property (money was solicited for the Magna
    > Mater project before and after the creation of the webpage)
    >
    > 6. by means of false or fraudulent pretenses (this is the point to prove
    > in the offence20that this Senate/BoD is undoubtedly guilty of - we posited
    > on the sponsorship page that we were seeking to rebuild the temple when it
    > had been made abundantly clear to this house that this was impossible
    > given the rules in force for reconstruction and the presence of the trees)
    >
    > 7. representations, or promises, (makes the claims concerning the goal of
    > reconstruction - a false and impossible claim)
    >
    > 8. transmits or causes to be transmitted by means of wire, radio or
    > television communication (the operation of the webpage across the Internet
    > falls under this category of wire)
    >
    > 9. any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or sounds (the webpage)
    >
    > 10. for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice (the webpage is
    > designed to promote the Magna Mater Project and solicit donations)
    >
    > 11. shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years,
    > or both
    >
    > 12. If the violation affects a financial institution, such person shall be
    > fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or
    > both. (Not applicable)
    >
    > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --
    >
    > Senators, clearly under point 6 above knowing that the goal of rebuilding
    > the temple could not realistically be achieved under these20conditions that
    > have existed since at the very least the Superintendent' s office has had
    > control of monuments in and outside of the Forum Romanum, this Senate/BoD
    > sanctioned a false pretense. It was never good enough to obliquely mention
    > on a different site, the Wiki, the problems and thus impossibility of
    > rebuilding it. Put simply the entire webpage was constructed on a false
    > premise and has been operating under that since it was created. The
    > records of this House, and as I don't trust the probity and common sense
    > of some of you, don't bother to delete them everything is saved, clearly
    > indicate that the knowledge of this inherent inability to rebuild was well
    > known. To solicit donations based on this is clearly, and let none of you
    > even bother to debate this for you are merely sealing your own demise in
    > any prosecution, a fraudulent pretense.
    >
    > You all better start waking up to the fact that we can no longer live in
    > some fantasy bubble that Nova Roma is independent of macronational legal
    > requirements or the consequences of breaching them - as a number of us
    > have been telling you all for a number of years, albeit a number of you
    > have deliberately ignored this by refusing abjectly to recognize the
    > consequences of your inaction in this respect.
    >
    >20As the magistrate charged this year with administering this absolute
    > fraud, I put you all on notice early on that I would investigate it and
    > report back to you. I have done so. Earlier while I was conducting my
    > investigations took the precaution of placing a warning above the donation
    > button and provided a link for prospective donors to take them to the
    > relevant page in the Wiki. Now that it has become clear to me that the
    > corporation and individual members, including myself, would be at
    > increased and increasing daily risk by the continued operation of this
    > project, I have exercised my authority and disabled the Magna Mater
    > Project webpage. I am not prepared to tolerate this continued exposure
    > under Federal and US law. It matters not that we have the webpage hosted
    > outside of the USA, any more than it would if the corporation was in
    > Europe and the website was in the US. This project, this flagrant abuse of
    > common sense must cease operation forthwith.
    >
    > I also know that some of you are laboring under the massive illusion that
    > we can use these funds to create a reflection area or other such nonsense.
    > Divest yourselves immediately and finally of the idea of using funds
    > obtained under a false premise for a purpose totally unrelated to the aim
    > stated at the time the20donations were solicited. That is illegal, utterly
    > illegal and I suggest all of you with any common sense and respect for
    > your own personal liberty to speak up and decry any such foolhardy
    > nonsense.
    >
    > I have in my possession a CD that clearly states, in the words of the
    > promoter of this scheme, that the purpose was to raise our profile with
    > educational establishments. This is another nail in the coffin of this
    > project, that should NEVER have been born in the first place. If we were
    > to continue to raise money under what is a false pretense of rebuilding,
    > divert that money to building a bench, waste part of it on a website
    > promoting this falsehood, and then have the gall on video to clearly say
    > that the ultimate purpose was to gratify the continuing desire of some
    > here to see Nova Roma. and thus would contend any prosecutor worth his
    > salt - themselves, be the recipient of academic validity and respect. That
    > Senators would be the motive that would be claimed and is clearly
    > supported by the words of Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus himself on this
    > video. We have obtained monies under a false pretence to stroke the egos
    > of some in this House who have exercised no probity whatsoever in spite of
    > the increasing concerns of some of us concerning this project.
    > ;
    > I will tell you now that I am also investigating who exactly was the
    > recipient of monies paid out by Nova Roma Inc. for the creation of the
    > webpage. Franciscus Apulus Caesar worked and still works I believe for the
    > company that ostensibly created the page. I am not prepared to trust any
    > previous investigations into this matter and will endeavor to satisfy
    > myself as to who actually created it and who received the money, be it by
    > way of a company, a sub-contractor or an employee who received a bonus.
    > Put simply this was not acceptable that there was not greater distance
    > between someone on the Senate/BoD, a one time consul, an arch proponent of
    > this scheme and the recipient of monies for work done.
    >
    > In short Senators the corporation and all those of you who have actively
    > promoted this are up to your necks potentially in some very serious and
    > deep waters. Do not even bother to advance the defense that no one minded,
    > or that no one really knew or understood. You were told enough times -
    > some of you making the disbursements and advocating for this project, and
    > you flatly ignored those warnings. I insist that this project be
    > terminated and all monies refunded. I also insist that no expenditure
    > whatsoever take place from this point in respect of this. I also warn
    all
    > of you that I will not hesitate to protect myself and other s in this
    > house if there is any substantive move to counter my actions.
    >
    > In order to protect the corporation by demonstrating responsibility I
    > invite all those who have actively pursued this project with a carefree
    > zeal and reckless abandonment of any sense of duty and probity, in the
    > face of clear evidence that reconstruction was not possible, to step down
    > as BoD members and members of this House. In any other corporate setting
    > this would be enforced immediately. The days of a casual disregard for the
    > laws of the land - not our insignificant by-laws, but real law, ended a
    > long time ago. The amount of the money involved is irrelevant too.
    >
    > We are in an election time for my long awaited and over due colleague.
    > Whoever that is, they better be aware that I will expect them to fall in
    > line with the necessary steps to protect the corporation and any more
    > investors from being duped. I will not tolerate the grandstanding that
    > goes on over this wretched scheme from my colleague. Two of the candidates
    > I know I can rely on to support me. I expect all other officers of the
    > corporation to fall in step on this one, and save any spluttering about
    > who is superior to who, or someone's dignitas. Thi
    s is a matter of
    > potential criminal liability and personal liberty and corporate survival.
    > Those of you who the other two candidates may listen to, make them aware
    > of the seriousness of the situation.
    >
    > Finally, just to hone your interest I am investigating a report that a
    > potential donor has already made a complaint to as yet unidentified US
    > Department of Justice concerning wire fraud. Regardless of whether this
    > turns out to be substantive - it is now time to start behaving with
    > serious intent on this matter.
    >
    > Govern yourselves accordingly.
    >
    > Optime valete
    >
    > Gnaeus Iulius Caesar
    > Aedilis Curulis
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
    > Vous voulez savoir ce que vous pouvez faire avec le nouveau Windows Live ?
    > Lancez-vous !
    > http://www.microsof t.com/windows/ windowslive/ default.aspx

    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63360 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: Re: MMP
    Cn. Iulius Caesar SPD.

    I wouldn't want to spoil a good drama from unfolding, but to save a lot of people time from typing, I will point out that:

    1. I am mandated as being in charge of the MMP under the Senatus Consultum. It falls under my area of responsibility

    2. Therefore what goes wrong - I won't bother with right - with this project is my responsibility.

    3. I believe that due to the wording of the website that an offence of Wire Fraud was present.

    4. I made a judgement to take down the site, not least becuase I am aware of the emotional retardation of judgement that occurs when any critcal comment is made about this black hole into which Nova Roma has poured time and effort. I also decided to do that as I had no faith in the judgment or ability of our two consuls to act in a fortright manner, given that it is now April and I am still without a colleague due to their prevarication. One does not prevaricate if one believes a crime is being commited. Nor does one form advisory councils - one acts. I know that is probably an unsettling concept for the Consuls.

    5. I reported this to the Senate immediately after and kept the discussions behind closed doors

    6. None of you good people would probably know about this had not our good praetor not only issued his riduclous intercessio - as if I would endanger myself into committing a crime under US law due to a Nova Roman order, but also atatched my report. So be it. His choice.

    7. Nova Roma will not collapse nor our name be sullied - further - my the removal of this site. I doubt anyone had to retire to lie doewn in a dark room with a cloth on their head becuase the site was down. Or let me rephrase that, I will wait until our Consuls produce someone whio has been traumatized by the removal of the site.

    8. The senior consul has the log on screen, the user id, the password, the bypass URL and the instructions how to reverse that bypass.

    Now I will let the soap opera of wailing and gnashing of teeth continue.

    Optime valete


    --- On Fri, 4/17/09, livia_plauta <livia.plauta@...> wrote:

    > From: livia_plauta <livia.plauta@...>
    > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP
    > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    > Date: Friday, April 17, 2009, 4:27 PM
    > Salve Cato,
    > Nova Roma DID NOT collect money for building a temple.
    > Nova Roma DID NOT solicit money for the sole purpose of
    > restoring the MM temple either.
    > Nova Roma solicited money for a series of goals which
    > include enhancing and valorizing the MM temple site, and the
    > long-term goal of restoration.
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63361 From: Lucius Cornelius Cicero Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: Re: Fw: Back Alley Insults the Virgo Maxima
    How on earth does what you just said dispute the fact that the Pontifex Maxmimus was not the ONLY person with authority over the Vestal Virgin Maxima?


    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@... wrote:
    >
    >
    > Actually, it is a very Roman position.? The PM stood in as paterfamilias for the Vestales.? If a Vestal allowed the perpetual fire to fail, the PM was responsible for punishing the Vestal responsible.
    >
    > Aureliane
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Q. Valerius Poplicola <q.valerius.poplicola@...>
    > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    > Sent: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 11:54 am
    > Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Fw: Back Alley Insults the Virgo Maxima
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Q. Valerius Poplicola Fl. Galerio Aureliano SPD
    >
    >
    >
    > I was not speaking directly about this Virgo Maxima. Indeed, if I were, it
    >
    > would have been aired in the Collegium Pontificum, where we agreed to keep
    >
    > such discussions. Also, this "no authority except the Pontifex Maximus" is a
    >
    > very unRoman position indeed. The Senate and Consuls always held precedent,
    >
    > and if the Virgo Maxima engaged in sexual behavior, she could be prosecuted
    >
    > with or without the consent of the Pontifex Maximus.
    >
    >
    >
    > --------------------------------------------------
    >
    > From: <PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...>
    >
    > Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 10:12 AM
    >
    > To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
    >
    > Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Fw: Back Alley Insults the Virgo Maxima
    >
    >
    >
    > > Fl. Galerius Aurelianus Q. Valerio Poplicola sal.
    >
    > >
    >
    > > If any citizen engages in posts that result in a loss of civility or order
    >
    > > on the official fora of Nova Roma, then that person is subject to warning
    >
    > > and moderation at the discretion of the praetores.
    >
    > >
    >
    > > The Virgo Vestalis Maxima is subject to no authority save that of the
    >
    > > Pontifex Maximus, so it is not for any other citizen, flamen, augur, or
    >
    > > pontifex to make a decision on whether or not what she posts is
    >
    > > irreligious.? Each of the sacerdoes of the various cults is responsible to
    >
    > > act within a proper framework as established by the Declaration of the
    >
    > > Religio Romana, the Constitution, and the many edicta and discreta of our
    >
    > > organization.
    >
    > >
    >
    > > I have not seen that the Virgo Vestalis Maxima has acted in any manner
    >
    > > that is detrimental to her office or cultus.? If you feel otherwise, I
    >
    > > would kindly suggest that you bring it to the attention of the Pontifex
    >
    > > Maximus.
    >
    > >
    >
    > > As a private citizen and pontifex, I find it personally repugnant that any
    >
    > > member of the Senate or Collegium Pontificum would suggest on any list
    >
    > > (official or not)?that the Virgo Vestalis needs to get l***.? Anyone who
    >
    > > has done so lacks respect for the cultus of Vesta Mater and I personally
    >
    > > believe they are acting like swine.
    >
    > >
    >
    > > Vale.
    >
    > >
    >
    > >
    >
    > > -----Original Message-----
    >
    > > From: Q. Valerius Poplicola <q.valerius.poplicola@...>
    >
    > > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    >
    > > Sent: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 3:31 pm
    >
    > > Subject: Re: WG: AW: [Nova-Roma] Re: Fw: Back Alley Insults the Virgo
    >
    > > Maxima
    >
    > >
    >
    > >
    >
    > >
    >
    > >
    >
    > >
    >
    > >
    >
    > >
    >
    > >
    >
    > > So what happens when the Virgo Vestalis Maxima insults others or posts
    >
    > > irreligious information?
    >
    > >
    >
    > > --------------------------------------------------
    >
    > > From: "Titus Flavius Aquila" <titus.aquila@...>
    >
    > > Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 2:40 PM
    >
    > > To: <gaiuspopillius@...>; <spqr753@...>
    >
    > > Cc: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
    >
    > > Subject: WG: AW: [Nova-Roma] Re: Fw: Back Alley Insults the Virgo Maxima
    >
    > >
    >
    > >>
    >
    > >>
    >
    > >> Salvete Censores,
    >
    > >>
    >
    > >> I request actions against all citizens who have insulted the Virgo
    >
    > >> Maxima,
    >
    > >> if they do not apologize in person .
    >
    > >>
    >
    > >> Optime valete
    >
    > >>
    >
    > >> Titus Flavius Aquila
    >
    > >> Quaestor
    >
    > >> Accensus Consulibus
    >
    > >> Scriba Censoribus
    >
    > >> Legatus Pro Praetore Provincia Germania
    >
    > >> Collegium sodalitas proDIIS
    >
    > >>
    >
    > >>
    >
    > >>
    >
    > >
    >
    > >
    >
    > >
    >
    > >
    >
    > >
    >
    > >
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63362 From: Lucius Cornelius Cicero Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: Re: BECAUSE THE ARGUMENTS OF Cn.IULIUS CAESAR ARE WRONG
    *VULTUS PALMUS*

    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "M.CVR.COMPLVTENSIS" <complutensis@...> wrote:
    >
    > Salvete
    >
    > The Aedilis Curulis Iulius Caesar has based the suspension of the MMP
    > website in the word "restoration" arguing that restoration means only
    > rebuild or reconstructions (make it as new).
    >
    > For those of us who do not know how works the archaelogical preservation
    > and conservation:
    >
    > There are some clear and specific standards relating to the
    > preservation, conservation, restoration and value of archaeological
    > remains. These rules are followed by all countries.
    >
    > The principal guidelines are documented by the UNESCO and various
    > international conventions:
    >
    > /-Venice Charter, UNESCO, Venice may 1964.
    > (http://www.international.icomos.org/charters/venice_e.htm)/
    > /-Australia Charter (Burra Chater) ICOMOS, Australia, 1981./
    > /-Rules of Quito, Ecuador, nov-dec, 1967./
    > /-UNESCO, Nirobi, 1976./
    > /-UNESCO, Antigua Guatemala Sept, 1977./
    > /-El Salvador, Jun, 1976./
    > /-La Valette, 1992./
    > /-ICOMOS, New Zealand, Oct,1992.
    > /
    >
    > and specifically for the MMP in Italy by the rules issued by the
    > Ministero per i Beni e le Attivitá Culturali.
    >
    > According these standards:
    >
    > The objective of conservation and restoration is to safeguard.
    > Restoration is only one step in safeguarding. This implies *permanent
    > care*. To conserve does not end with the restoration of the monument; it
    > also attempts to go much farther trying to guarantee its permanence for
    > future generations. Premises:
    > 1.The principal objective of conservation is to perpetuate the historic
    > testimony without the denaturalization of its cultural meaning.
    > 2.Tourism can be a useful resource that we should use as a generator of
    > currency and well being. But it is not the most important object.
    > 3.Visitors represent a factor of deterioration. This is why we should
    > work in the prevention and protection of this danger.
    > 4.Restoration is only one method of safeguarding as mentioned in article
    > 9 to help "keep an exceptional character".
    > 5.To restore is not always the correct thing to do. If the monument is
    > well preserved, our mission will be use the appropriate methods to
    > maintain and guarantee its permanence.
    >
    > *To restore
    > *It literally means to recover or to repair. For the architectural
    > pieces we cannot use this meaning literally. We need to analyze the
    > reality of each archaeological monument. Now it is opportune to mention
    > Cesar Brandi, when he said "To restore means to intervene with any
    > object with the idea of giving it back its _efficiency_ whatever product
    > of human activity "(Gonzalez,1977:3)
    > This is seen as a correct definition, but it also has some limitations.
    > Here we have to consider some primordial aspects:
    > 1) For the efficiency of any object or product of the human activity,
    > it has to be given back it's function, for which it was made.
    > 2) The restoration, as mentioned by Brandi, is a process of intervention
    > that will make efficient any product of human creation. It is
    > indispensable that the object be restored to reclaim its efficiency.
    > 3) In our case, archaeological sites are usually in danger of
    > destruction. Consequently they are unique and irreparable sites .
    >
    > The Colosseum of Roma was restored but not rebuilt. The Aquaeductus of
    > Segovia was restored but not rebuilt. The Parthenon in Athens was
    > restored but not rebuilt. Roma, Ostia, Segobriga, Lancia, Emporiae,
    > Ocilis, Aegypt............do you have visited these cities or countries?
    >
    > Nobody in their right mind can claim that restoration means returning to
    > their original state.
    >
    > With the archaeological restoration the monuments and the remains are
    > well preserved.
    >
    > I am very sorry that our culture is left in the query to the meaning of
    > a word in the dictionary, that means that we need to enhance our
    > culture, especially in the case of the preservation of our Roman heritage.
    >
    > Conclusion: the announce of the desire of (archaelogical) restoration of
    > an archaeological site is not a crime and cannot be it, crimes are the
    > alteration and/or destruction of archaeological remains.
    >
    > The Magna Mater Project is a project to preservation, conservation,
    > restoration and start value of archaeological remains of the ancient
    > Temple of Magna Mater.
    >
    > The Magna Mater Project follows the line of the prof. Pensabene's
    > report to UNESCO, also presented on the MMP web site in pdf format.
    > (Because the site is closed the pdf is attached to this message)
    >
    > Valete
    >
    > M. Cur. Complutensis
    > Consul
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63363 From: Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: Re: BECAUSE THE ARGUMENTS OF Cn.IULIUS CAESAR ARE WRONG [1 Attachmen
    Honored Consul, Salve;

    When I donated to the Magna Mater Project, as a lay member of the
    nonarchaeological public-at-large, I looked at the meaning of
    restoration in the broadly accepted sense of renewing something to its
    former condition of good repair.

    I restored a table for my mother, which was a wedding present from her
    mother. I stripped off the old coating, used 0000 steel wool to
    smooth out some rough spots and refinished it with a hand-rubbed
    Danish oil finish, which closely matched the original appearance.

    After the fact, do not try and tell me that the word was meant in a
    narrow sense not elucidated.

    Vale - Venator
    (an increasingly disgruntled donor)
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63364 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    Fl. Galerius Aurelianus s.p.d.

    I wrote to Gn. Iulio that as a high school student and college student, I contributed money to a fund I discovered from the material I received in the mail from the AIA for the purpose of stabilization and restoration of the Parthenon in Athens.  Over 20 years went by before the work actually began and some of the repairs have been made using modern materials when the original stones could not be used.  When one is discussing the restoration of a structure more than 2,200 years old, one doesn't think of restoration in terms of months or years but decades.  There were other reasons for the MMP than the restoration of the temple (not to be confused with templum which is the entire sacred enclosure) including putting NR's name out in the academic community.

    Gn. Iulio should have brought the matter to the attention of the BoD before he made any unilateral action about taking the website off-line.  Instead, he overstepped his rights and prerogatives of his office.  I will support the action of the praetor since Gn. Iulio has peformed an action against the Senate and People of Nova Roma.

    Valete.


    -----Original Message-----
    From: aerdensrw <aerdensrw@...>
    To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    Sent: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 9:21 am
    Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO



    I will be interested to see what the Senate's response is to this matter. The reasoning that Cn. Jul. Caesar gave seemed detailed and thorough, by someone who appears to understand the law.

    I think the Magna Mater website should REMAIN disabled until someone with a US law degree has provided an equally detailed explanation of why they think the curule aedile's concerns are unwarranted.

    With great respect to M. Hortensia Maior, I need to see reasons. Just telling me that a qualified person looked over the books and saw nothing wrong does not adequately allay my concerns. Cn. Jul. Caesar gave very specific details of the problems he sees.

    I can't remember if any portion of NR taxes is donated to the Magna Mater project, but if it is, whoever disburses that money could face legal difficultires, as well, if Cn. Jul. Caesar's concerns prove valid. I think we need to see facts--even though legalese makes my brain hurt.

    If it is impossible to rebuild the Magna Mater temple on the original site, could it be rebuilt elsewhere? If the goals of the project have 'diverged' from the original goal, in what way were they changed, and is that goal attainable?

    The solution to this issue might be as simple as changing the text of the website and informing the current donors of a need to change the goal. It might also be as simple as disabling the donation tool and restoring the rest of the site until this matter can be adequately resolved.

    Paulla Corva

    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63365 From: Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: Re: MMP
    Ave Livia Plauta et Salvete omnes;

    On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 5:27 PM, livia_plauta wrote:
    >
    >[excision]
    >
    > The MM project website was taken down without warning, so currently nobody
    > can go and check what it said. . .[excisio]
    >

    Of course we can.

    http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.magnamaterproject.org

    The whole internet is archived; most anything can be found unless a
    certain command is entered in the properties of the individual web
    page.

    Finding the Magna Mater site took me less than 1 minute Wednesday evening.

    Valete - Venator

    (Who is obviously feeling much better, and a bit mulish ,-)
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63366 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    Cn. Iulius Caesar SPD.
     
    And I will ignore the Praetors demands as an incitement to commit a criminal offence, which is itself an offence.
     
    The days of corporate bodies deamnding that their employees and officials comply with illegal demands ended with Enron.
     
    The Constitution of Nova Roma gives each citizen the right to be bound by the civil rights of his nation state. it is a basic civil right to obey the law. Under Section I.B of the Constittion - the order of legal precedence - the Constitution outweighs any edict/intercessio.
     
    Some people just can't read law or understand the basic obligations of living in a macronational society, and clearly our praetor falls into that catergory.
     
    Now get it through all of your heads now. No edict, demand, hullabaloo or general outcry will cause me to commit what I believe to be a mcronational offence. I have been in law enforcement for over 21 years. If my gut tells me something is illegal - I listen to it...not the idiotic rablings and squakings of someone on a keyboard in France.
     
    Get with the program people. It's called life.
     
    Now of course if our consul wants to put he site back up - then he can, but my electronic fingerprints will not be on it.
     
    Optime valete.


    --- On Fri, 4/17/09, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@... <PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...> wrote:
    From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@... <PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...>
    Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    Date: Friday, April 17, 2009, 4:51 PM



    Fl. Galerius Aurelianus s.p.d.

    I wrote to Gn. Iulio that as a high school student and college student, I contributed money to a fund I discovered from the material I received in the mail from the AIA for the purpose of stabilization and restoration of the Parthenon in Athens.  Over 20 years went by before the work actually began and some of the repairs have been made using modern materials when the original stones could not be used.  When one is discussing the restoration of a structure more than 2,200 years old, one doesn't think of restoration in terms of months or years but decades.  There were other reasons for the MMP than the restoration of the temple (not to be confused with templum which is the entire sacred enclosure) including putting NR's name out in the academic community.

    Gn. Iulio should have brought the matter to the attention of the BoD before he made any unilateral action about taking the website off-line.  Instead, he overstepped his rights and prerogatives of his office.  I will support the action of the praetor since Gn. Iulio has peformed an action against the Senate and People of Nova Roma.

    Valete.


    -----Original Message-----
    From: aerdensrw <aerdensrw@...>
    To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    Sent: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 9:21 am
    Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO



    I will be interested to see what the Senate's response is to this matter. The reasoning that Cn. Jul. Caesar gave seemed detailed and thorough, by someone who appears to understand the law.

    I think the Magna Mater website should REMAIN disabled until someone with a US law degree has provided an equally detailed explanation of why they think the curule aedile's concerns are unwarranted.

    With great respect to M. Hortensia Maior, I need to see reasons. Just telling me that a qualified person looked over the books and saw nothing wrong does not adequately allay my concerns. Cn. Jul. Caesar gave very specific details of the problems he sees.

    I can't remember if any portion of NR taxes is donated to the Magna Mater project, but if it is, whoever disburses that money could face legal difficultires, as well, if Cn. Jul. Caesar's concerns prove valid. I think we need to see facts--even though legalese makes my brain hurt.

    If it is impossible to rebuild the Magna Mater temple on the original site, could it be rebuilt elsewhere? If the goals of the project have 'diverged' from the original goal, in what way were they changed, and is that goal attainable?

    The solution to this issue might be as simple as changing the text of the website and informing the current donors of a need to change the goal. It might also be as simple as disabling the donation tool and restoring the rest of the site until this matter can be adequately resolved.

    Paulla Corva



    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63367 From: livia_plauta Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    Salve Paulla Corva,

    >
    > If it is impossible to rebuild the Magna Mater temple on the original site, could it be rebuilt elsewhere? If the goals of the project have 'diverged' from the original goal, in what way were they changed, and is that goal attainable?


    No, the temple cannot be rebuilt, either on site or elsewhere, because the funds donated were not donated for the purpose of rebuilding it, and their destination cannot be changed.

    >
    > The solution to this issue might be as simple as changing the text of the website and informing the current donors of a need to change the goal.

    The goal was not changed. Rebuilding was never mentioned, and the "valorization" of the site which is mentioned is a sufficiently wide concept as to allow for multiple sub-goals.

    >It might also be as simple as disabling the donation tool and restoring the rest of the site until this matter can be adequately resolved.
    >
    That would be the rational solution, if indeed there were doubts about the legitimity of the projects, but it's not the one that was chosen by our current aedilis curulis, because it would have meant starting a discussion, instead of creating new conflicts by issuing an ultimatum.

    Optime vale,
    Livia
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63368 From: livia_plauta Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    Salve Cicero,
    you should not be boasting on the main list of having been part of the team involved with the MM project assessment, when you obviously have not been doing your job properly.
    I know for sure that nobody asked the people formerly responsible for the project for relevant information.

    Vale,
    Livia


    >
    > Salve Maior
    >
    > > So if you genuinely want to know ask those involved. I've provided >the information. I have no interest in perpetuating political feuds. >I have recipes to make, research to do, Latin to study. Real life >things.
    >
    > You're being unnecessarily insulting towards Caesar. Nowhere has there been the slightest hint that his decision had anything to do with any political feuds. As a member of a group of scribae of the cohors aedelicia involved in helping Aedile Caesar with an assessment of the MMP's website and its legal implications, I can assure you that not once did politics play any role nor did they come up in the discussions the cohors held. What did become clear to everyone was that the website could open NR up to criminal or civil legal action due to the language used to solicit money and the actualy situation with regards to the rebuilding of the temple.
    >
    > Aedile Caesar thus took the only step he could in suggesting that the website be suspended until these issues could be rectified. This is a decision based on sound judgment and only in the interests of NR and all its citizens, and also in the interests of the MMP.
    >
    > I am amazed that some would try and turn this into a political issue when it is nothing of the sort.
    >
    > Vale,
    >
    > L Cornelius Cicero
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63369 From: livia_plauta Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    Salve Flavi Aquila,
    you should not boast either of having been responsible for the team, because you are in daily contact with the former aediles, and you could have got hold of the relevant information any time, but you didn't bother to do so.

    Vale,
    Livia

    >
    > Salvete Quirites,
    >
    > I,  Titus Flavius Aquila, responsible Quaestor for the MMP group within the cohors of the Aedilis Curulis Caesar, support the statement of
    > Lucius Cornelius Cicero.
    >
    > Optime valete
    > Titus Flavius Aquila
    > Quaestor
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > ________________________________
    > Von: Lucius Cornelius Cicero <Cicero@...>
    > An: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    > Gesendet: Freitag, den 17. April 2009, 15:07:52 Uhr
    > Betreff: [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Salve Maior
    >
    > > So if you genuinely want to know ask those involved. I've provided >the information. I have no interest in perpetuating political feuds. >I have recipes to make, research to do, Latin to study. Real life >things.
    >
    > You're being unnecessarily insulting towards Caesar. Nowhere has there been the slightest hint that his decision had anything to do with any political feuds. As a member of a group of scribae of the cohors aedelicia involved in helping Aedile Caesar with an assessment of the MMP's website and its legal implications, I can assure you that not once did politics play any role nor did they come up in the discussions the cohors held. What did become clear to everyone was that the website could open NR up to criminal or civil legal action due to the language used to solicit money and the actualy situation with regards to the rebuilding of the temple.
    >
    > Aedile Caesar thus took the only step he could in suggesting that the website be suspended until these issues could be rectified. This is a decision based on sound judgment and only in the interests of NR and all its citizens, and also in the interests of the MMP.
    >
    > I am amazed that some would try and turn this into a political issue when it is nothing of the sort.
    >
    > Vale,
    >
    > L Cornelius Cicero
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63370 From: enodia2002 Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    Salve Livia Plauta,

    Please be specific as to what information you feel is relevant to this discussion.

    V Rutilia




    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "livia_plauta" <livia.plauta@...> wrote:
    >
    > Salve Flavi Aquila,
    > you should not boast either of having been responsible for the team, because you are in daily contact with the former aediles, and you could have got hold of the relevant information any time, but you didn't bother to do so.
    >
    > Vale,
    > Livia
    >
    > >
    > > Salvete Quirites,
    > >
    > > I,  Titus Flavius Aquila, responsible Quaestor for the MMP group within the cohors of the Aedilis Curulis Caesar, support the statement of
    > > Lucius Cornelius Cicero.
    > >
    > > Optime valete
    > > Titus Flavius Aquila
    > > Quaestor
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > ________________________________
    > > Von: Lucius Cornelius Cicero <Cicero@>
    > > An: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    > > Gesendet: Freitag, den 17. April 2009, 15:07:52 Uhr
    > > Betreff: [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Salve Maior
    > >
    > > > So if you genuinely want to know ask those involved. I've provided >the information. I have no interest in perpetuating political feuds. >I have recipes to make, research to do, Latin to study. Real life >things.
    > >
    > > You're being unnecessarily insulting towards Caesar. Nowhere has there been the slightest hint that his decision had anything to do with any political feuds. As a member of a group of scribae of the cohors aedelicia involved in helping Aedile Caesar with an assessment of the MMP's website and its legal implications, I can assure you that not once did politics play any role nor did they come up in the discussions the cohors held. What did become clear to everyone was that the website could open NR up to criminal or civil legal action due to the language used to solicit money and the actualy situation with regards to the rebuilding of the temple.
    > >
    > > Aedile Caesar thus took the only step he could in suggesting that the website be suspended until these issues could be rectified. This is a decision based on sound judgment and only in the interests of NR and all its citizens, and also in the interests of the MMP.
    > >
    > > I am amazed that some would try and turn this into a political issue when it is nothing of the sort.
    > >
    > > Vale,
    > >
    > > L Cornelius Cicero
    > >
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63371 From: livia_plauta Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: Re: BECAUSE THE ARGUMENTS OF Cn.IULIUS CAESAR ARE WRONG [1 Attachmen
    L. Livia Plauta Cn. Iulio Caesari S.P.D.

    >
    > I am sure all our donors went to this amount of reaerch over the meaning of the word restore and fully understood the utter impossibility of restoration.
    >
    No, they didn't need to do any research, because the meaning of "restoration" was explained in excruciating detail in the project description:

    "The preliminary project for the conservation of this important area of the Palatine stems from the necessity to solve the most urgent problems of the rain water drainage and of the protection from the disgregative action of the water itself.
    An extensive research work already started some years ago (Prof. Krause and other) in order to know the extension of the ancient roman sewage system. The sewage network is very complicated and not used since the Roman ages; moreover, collapses and filling of the ancient ducts make it difficult and time consuming the knowledge of the original system. After mapping of the sewage network, a more definite project will be drawn, choosing which part of the ancient ducts are to be restored and used again.
    Of course, owing to the collapses and changing of the structures during the centuries, additional works will be planned in order to complete the draining system.
    In the same time the upper abandoned excavations will be filled with light material to restore a flat roof on the top; this roof will be protected with waterproofing material and equipped with draining systems.
    The adoption of protecting canopies or other visible roofing systems will be considered only as provisional during the works, due to the negative impact on the landscape.
    When necessary, soil stabilization and waterproofing will be reached by the use of geotexile materials, bentonite clays or other systems.
    Old conservation works made by metal bars will be replaced and upgraded. A system of tie-beam has been planned in the most damaged and dangerous parts."

     
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63372 From: Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: Valorization, a Communist concept
    Avete Omnes;

    I have presented my views elsewhere, but grow weary of the give and
    take without resolution.

    I finally hit upon one of the things about this MMP scheme, which has
    been really bothering me at a subconscious level, the word "valorize,"
    which the supporters of this scheme keep parroting.

    From Wikipeadia, which I use as a starting point and backed up by
    reading through the appropriate section of my copy of "Das Kapital":

    The valorization of capital is a concept created by Karl Marx in his
    critique of political economy. The German original term is
    "Verwertung" (specifically Kapitalverwertung) but this is difficult to
    translate, and often wrongly rendered as "realisation of capital",
    "creation of surplus-value" or "self-expansion of capital" or
    "increase in value". In modern translations of Marx's economic
    writings, the term valorisation (as in French) is preferred because it
    is recognized that it denotes a highly specific economic concept. It
    refers both to the process whereby a capital value is conferred or
    bestowed on something, and to the increase in the value of a capital
    asset.

    From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913):

    Valorization \Val`or*i*za"tion\, n. [Pg. valorizac[~a]o.]

    "Act or process of attempting to give an arbitrary market value or
    price to a commodity by governmental interference, as by maintaining a
    purchasing fund, making loans to producers to enable them to hold
    their products, etc.; -- used chiefly of such action by Brazil."

    Merriam-Webster Dictionary online (current):

    valorization
    One entry found.

    Main Entry: val·o·rize Listen to the pronunciation of valorize
    Pronunciation: \ˈva-lə-ˌrīz\
    Function: transitive verb
    Inflected Form(s): val·o·rized; val·o·riz·ing
    Etymology: Portuguese valorizar, from valor value, price, from Medieval Latin
    Date: circa 1906

    1 : to enhance or try to enhance the price, value, or status of by
    organized and usually governmental action <using subsidies to valorize
    coffee> 2 : to assign value or merit to : validate
    — val·o·ri·za·tion Listen to the pronunciation of valorization
    \ˌva-lə-rə-ˈzā-shən\ noun

    So, we are trusting a large portion of our meager Nova Roma funds to
    something, which might have its value artificially inflated by the
    possible action of a macronational government, assuming said
    government actually cares.

    No, no, no!

    This is a concept I find as palatable as fiat money, which I am forced
    to admit I am constrained to accept.

    I call now, in open Forum, for our Magistrates and Senators to get us
    out from under this, THING.

    in obstinatus animus

    Venator
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63373 From: enodia2002 Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    Salve, et Salvete!

    I've long been of the opinion that if the US Internal Revenue Service were to have a heraldic device it would be a quivering human heart clutched in a mailed fist. Sable, on a field azure.

    Small non-profit organizations get into these kinds of trouble all the time. There's no blame attached, it's just that especially with such an international cast there are some areas which are outside of the group skill set. The bottom line is that as far as corporate compliance and solicitation of funds are concerned, we're doing it wrong and we need to fix it.

    I am personally weaving a grass crown for Equestria Laeca, as it's only because of her heroic efforts that we are in as good a position as we are. There is, however, a great deal of work to be done. Much of it is paperwork, time-consuming and tedious.

    Nova Roma does not have a lot of time. Complaints have been made to various Departments of Justice which have come from OUTSIDE the membership. There are several things which could happen, but I strongly encourage the Senate and membership of NR to take this opportunity to respond to the problems in a calm and efficient manner. The IRS could come in and simply shut us down, but they usually prefer more painful methods. They could very easily fine the organization to death. The State of Maine could simply dissolve the corporation and leave us with nothing.

    If anyone out there is genuinely interested in being of service to Nova Roma, this is your big moment. Your help is needed: no politics, no semantics, no name, no blame.

    Let's just fix it, and move on.

    Optime vale,

    V Rutilia
    Scriba, Aedilian Cohors






    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Iulius Caesar <gn_iulius_caesar@...> wrote:
    >
    > Cn. Iulius Caesar SPD.
    >  
    > And I will ignore the Praetors demands as an incitement to commit a criminal offence, which is itself an offence.
    >  
    > The days of corporate bodies deamnding that their employees and officials comply with illegal demands ended with Enron.
    >  
    > The Constitution of Nova Roma gives each citizen the right to be bound by the civil rights of his nation state. it is a basic civil right to obey the law. Under Section I.B of the Constittion - the order of legal precedence - the Constitution outweighs any edict/intercessio.
    >  
    > Some people just can't read law or understand the basic obligations of living in a macronational society, and clearly our praetor falls into that catergory.
    >  
    > Now get it through all of your heads now. No edict, demand, hullabaloo or general outcry will cause me to commit what I believe to be a mcronational offence. I have been in law enforcement for over 21 years. If my gut tells me something is illegal - I listen to it...not the idiotic rablings and squakings of someone on a keyboard in France.
    >  
    > Get with the program people. It's called life.
    >  
    > Now of course if our consul wants to put he site back up - then he can, but my electronic fingerprints will not be on it.
    >  
    > Optime valete.
    >
    >
    > --- On Fri, 4/17/09, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@... <PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...> wrote:
    >
    > From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@... <PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...>
    > Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    > Date: Friday, April 17, 2009, 4:51 PM
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Fl. Galerius Aurelianus s.p.d.
    >
    > I wrote to Gn. Iulio that as a high school student and college student, I contributed money to a fund I discovered from the material I received in the mail from the AIA for the purpose of stabilization and restoration of the Parthenon in Athens.  Over 20 years went by before the work actually began and some of the repairs have been made using modern materials when the original stones could not be used.  When one is discussing the restoration of a structure more than 2,200 years old, one doesn't think of restoration in terms of months or years but decades.  There were other reasons for the MMP than the restoration of the temple (not to be confused with templum which is the entire sacred enclosure) including putting NR's name out in the academic community.
    >
    > Gn. Iulio should have brought the matter to the attention of the BoD before he made any unilateral action about taking the website off-line.  Instead, he overstepped his rights and prerogatives of his office.  I will support the action of the praetor since Gn. Iulio has peformed an action against the Senate and People of Nova Roma.
    >
    > Valete.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: aerdensrw <aerdensrw@...>
    > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    > Sent: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 9:21 am
    > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > I will be interested to see what the Senate's response is to this matter. The reasoning that Cn. Jul. Caesar gave seemed detailed and thorough, by someone who appears to understand the law.
    >
    > I think the Magna Mater website should REMAIN disabled until someone with a US law degree has provided an equally detailed explanation of why they think the curule aedile's concerns are unwarranted.
    >
    > With great respect to M. Hortensia Maior, I need to see reasons. Just telling me that a qualified person looked over the books and saw nothing wrong does not adequately allay my concerns. Cn. Jul. Caesar gave very specific details of the problems he sees.
    >
    > I can't remember if any portion of NR taxes is donated to the Magna Mater project, but if it is, whoever disburses that money could face legal difficultires, as well, if Cn. Jul. Caesar's concerns prove valid. I think we need to see facts--even though legalese makes my brain hurt.
    >
    > If it is impossible to rebuild the Magna Mater temple on the original site, could it be rebuilt elsewhere? If the goals of the project have 'diverged' from the original goal, in what way were they changed, and is that goal attainable?
    >
    > The solution to this issue might be as simple as changing the text of the website and informing the current donors of a need to change the goal. It might also be as simple as disabling the donation tool and restoring the rest of the site until this matter can be adequately resolved.
    >
    > Paulla Corva
    >
    >
    >
    > #yiv1765509809 #AOLMsgPart_2_eb4afbf9-1abe-4032-895d-c8097916593a #ygrp-mkp{border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:14px 0px;padding:0px 14px;}#yiv1765509809 #AOLMsgPart_2_eb4afbf9-1abe-4032-895d-c8097916593a #ygrp-mkp hr{border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv1765509809 #AOLMsgPart_2_eb4afbf9-1abe-4032-895d-c8097916593a #ygrp-mkp #hd{color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:bold;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0px;}#yiv1765509809 #AOLMsgPart_2_eb4afbf9-1abe-4032-895d-c8097916593a #ygrp-mkp #ads{margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv1765509809 #AOLMsgPart_2_eb4afbf9-1abe-4032-895d-c8097916593a #ygrp-mkp .ad{padding:0 0;}#yiv1765509809 #AOLMsgPart_2_eb4afbf9-1abe-4032-895d-c8097916593a #ygrp-mkp .ad a{color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
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    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63374 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: Re: BECAUSE THE ARGUMENTS OF Cn.IULIUS CAESAR ARE WRONG
    Cn. Iulius Caesar SPD.
     
    So, let me be sure I understand this. Restoration now is defined as shoring up old conservation work and building a protective canopy over the ruins to prevent further degradation due to the elements. Silly me, I thought it meant restoring the temple to its former glory, you know, pillars, tiles, altar etc.
     
    So restoration actually means patching up the bits that are left, yet the wiki entry on the Magna Mater Project seems to indicate that restoration will take a very long time. So we have two definitions of restoration. The wiki, taking a very very very long time and the website where the goal is easily achievable as we are just putting a roof over the ruins. Perhaps the roof over the ruins is meant to be gold plated?
     
    So when people donated money, as Curule Aedile I now have to know whether they were donating for a roof over the ruins or a full blown temple before I apportion their share of the funds accordingly?
     
    Interesting. And people wonder why this project simply shouldn't be put out of its misery?
     
    Optime valete.

    Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 6:15 PM
    Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: BECAUSE THE ARGUMENTS OF Cn.IULIUS CAESAR ARE WRONG

    L. Livia Plauta Cn. Iulio Caesari S.P.D.

    >
    > I
    am sure all our donors went to this amount of reaerch over the meaning of the word restore and fully understood the utter impossibility of restoration.
    >
    No, they didn't need to do any research, because the meaning of "restoration" was explained in excruciating detail in the project description:

    "The preliminary project for the conservation of this important area of the Palatine stems from the necessity to solve the most urgent problems of the rain water drainage and of the protection from the disgregative action of the water itself.
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63375 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    Salvete,

    If in fact there is *outside* grumbling and filed complaints, then I think all of the donors should be contacted immediately that the project is currently being reviewed for legal compliance, and if inconsistencies are found that their donations will be returned. Hopefully this might kick the legs from under any immediate peril and give the project enough time to get the proper paperwork filed. It would at least demonstrate good faith on our part, should this all go to court.

    Unfortunately, this will also have a domino effect, because those donors who were not worried will suddenly become worried. So, it would only buy us a little time to get everything in order before the project completely implodes. No matter which way this is spun, NR's reputation will be tarnished. The least NR can do is demonstrate that it is honest in its dealings. Maybe complete and immediate refunds would serve this end best.

    -Gualterus

    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "enodia2002" <walkyr@...> wrote:
    >
    > Salve, et Salvete!
    >
    > I've long been of the opinion that if the US Internal Revenue Service were to have a heraldic device it would be a quivering human heart clutched in a mailed fist. Sable, on a field azure.
    >
    > Small non-profit organizations get into these kinds of trouble all the time. There's no blame attached, it's just that especially with such an international cast there are some areas which are outside of the group skill set. The bottom line is that as far as corporate compliance and solicitation of funds are concerned, we're doing it wrong and we need to fix it.
    >
    > I am personally weaving a grass crown for Equestria Laeca, as it's only because of her heroic efforts that we are in as good a position as we are. There is, however, a great deal of work to be done. Much of it is paperwork, time-consuming and tedious.
    >
    > Nova Roma does not have a lot of time. Complaints have been made to various Departments of Justice which have come from OUTSIDE the membership. There are several things which could happen, but I strongly encourage the Senate and membership of NR to take this opportunity to respond to the problems in a calm and efficient manner. The IRS could come in and simply shut us down, but they usually prefer more painful methods. They could very easily fine the organization to death. The State of Maine could simply dissolve the corporation and leave us with nothing.
    >
    > If anyone out there is genuinely interested in being of service to Nova Roma, this is your big moment. Your help is needed: no politics, no semantics, no name, no blame.
    >
    > Let's just fix it, and move on.
    >
    > Optime vale,
    >
    > V Rutilia
    > Scriba, Aedilian Cohors
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Iulius Caesar <gn_iulius_caesar@> wrote:
    > >
    > > Cn. Iulius Caesar SPD.
    > >  
    > > And I will ignore the Praetors demands as an incitement to commit a criminal offence, which is itself an offence.
    > >  
    > > The days of corporate bodies deamnding that their employees and officials comply with illegal demands ended with Enron.
    > >  
    > > The Constitution of Nova Roma gives each citizen the right to be bound by the civil rights of his nation state. it is a basic civil right to obey the law. Under Section I.B of the Constittion - the order of legal precedence - the Constitution outweighs any edict/intercessio.
    > >  
    > > Some people just can't read law or understand the basic obligations of living in a macronational society, and clearly our praetor falls into that catergory.
    > >  
    > > Now get it through all of your heads now. No edict, demand, hullabaloo or general outcry will cause me to commit what I believe to be a mcronational offence. I have been in law enforcement for over 21 years. If my gut tells me something is illegal - I listen to it...not the idiotic rablings and squakings of someone on a keyboard in France.
    > >  
    > > Get with the program people. It's called life.
    > >  
    > > Now of course if our consul wants to put he site back up - then he can, but my electronic fingerprints will not be on it.
    > >  
    > > Optime valete.
    > >
    > >
    > > --- On Fri, 4/17/09, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@ <PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@> wrote:
    > >
    > > From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@ <PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@>
    > > Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    > > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    > > Date: Friday, April 17, 2009, 4:51 PM
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Fl. Galerius Aurelianus s.p.d.
    > >
    > > I wrote to Gn. Iulio that as a high school student and college student, I contributed money to a fund I discovered from the material I received in the mail from the AIA for the purpose of stabilization and restoration of the Parthenon in Athens.  Over 20 years went by before the work actually began and some of the repairs have been made using modern materials when the original stones could not be used.  When one is discussing the restoration of a structure more than 2,200 years old, one doesn't think of restoration in terms of months or years but decades.  There were other reasons for the MMP than the restoration of the temple (not to be confused with templum which is the entire sacred enclosure) including putting NR's name out in the academic community.
    > >
    > > Gn. Iulio should have brought the matter to the attention of the BoD before he made any unilateral action about taking the website off-line.  Instead, he overstepped his rights and prerogatives of his office.  I will support the action of the praetor since Gn. Iulio has peformed an action against the Senate and People of Nova Roma.
    > >
    > > Valete.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > -----Original Message-----
    > > From: aerdensrw <aerdensrw@>
    > > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    > > Sent: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 9:21 am
    > > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > I will be interested to see what the Senate's response is to this matter. The reasoning that Cn. Jul. Caesar gave seemed detailed and thorough, by someone who appears to understand the law.
    > >
    > > I think the Magna Mater website should REMAIN disabled until someone with a US law degree has provided an equally detailed explanation of why they think the curule aedile's concerns are unwarranted.
    > >
    > > With great respect to M. Hortensia Maior, I need to see reasons. Just telling me that a qualified person looked over the books and saw nothing wrong does not adequately allay my concerns. Cn. Jul. Caesar gave very specific details of the problems he sees.
    > >
    > > I can't remember if any portion of NR taxes is donated to the Magna Mater project, but if it is, whoever disburses that money could face legal difficultires, as well, if Cn. Jul. Caesar's concerns prove valid. I think we need to see facts--even though legalese makes my brain hurt.
    > >
    > > If it is impossible to rebuild the Magna Mater temple on the original site, could it be rebuilt elsewhere? If the goals of the project have 'diverged' from the original goal, in what way were they changed, and is that goal attainable?
    > >
    > > The solution to this issue might be as simple as changing the text of the website and informing the current donors of a need to change the goal. It might also be as simple as disabling the donation tool and restoring the rest of the site until this matter can be adequately resolved.
    > >
    > > Paulla Corva
    > >
    > >
    > >
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    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63376 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: Re: Corporate Compliance
    Cato Octaviae Aventinae omnibusque in foro SPD

    Salvete.

    Diana, we are actually given provision by our governing act to vote the way we do. Here is the clause:

    "Members to vote in person or by proxy; validity. A member entitled to vote may vote in person or, unless the articles of incorporation or the bylaws otherwise provide, may vote by proxy executed in writing by the member or by his duly authorized attorney-in-fact." (Maine Nonprofit Corporation Act Title 13-B Section 604.2)

    The key phrase being "unless the articles of incorporation or the bylaws provide". Our bylaws do actually provide for the internal procedures under which we vote, so at least on that we are clear.

    Vale et valete,

    Cato

    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Diana Octavia Aventina" <roman.babe@...> wrote:
    >
    > Salve Sulla,
    >
    > While not a lawyer or even a paralegal, I work in the tax & Legal department
    > of a large multinational (70000 employees). I am very familiar with articles
    > of incorporation and by-laws. Only a few weeks ago I posted somewhere that
    > NR's BoD meetings are not legal because they take place by email. I had
    > totally forgotten that NR also needs an annual meeting and an annual report.
    > Besides that any law that NR passes ned to be in hard copy, signed and filed
    > with the corporate records of the company. That wasn't done either.
    >
    > Is there anyway that NR can just disolve the corporation and just be a club?
    >
    > Vale,
    > Diana
    >
    >
    > ----- Original Message -----
    > From: "Robert Woolwine" <l_cornelius_sulla@...>
    > To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
    > Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 6:00 AM
    > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Corporate Compliance
    >
    >
    > Ladies and gentlemen here is your lesson on Corporate compliance for the
    > evening. This was a post I generated to the Senate list.
    >
    > Ave Conscript Fathers,
    >
    > In my never ending research I have come across a very serious issue that
    > Nova Roma's board of directors needs to address in all due haste.
    >
    > According to Section 602 and 603 Nova Roma has never fully been in
    > compliance with these sections which in a nutshell require us (NR) to notify
    > all members who have voting eligibility of the elections of officers:
    >
    > http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/statutes/13-B/title13-Bsec603.html
    >
    > 1. Written notice of meetings. Unless otherwise provided in the articles of
    > incorporation or the bylaws, written notice stating the place, day and hour
    > of the meeting and, in case of a special meeting, the purpose or purposes
    > for which the meeting is called, shall be delivered not less than 10 nor
    > more than 50 days before the date of the meeting, either personally or by
    > mail, by or at the direction of the president or the secretary, or the
    > officers or persons calling the meeting, to each member entitled to vote at
    > such meeting. If mailed, such notice shall be deemed to be delivered when
    > deposited in the United States mail addressed to the member at his address
    > as it appears on the records of the corporation, with postage thereon
    > prepaid.
    >
    > So, given our lack of specificity in our bylaws - NR needed to provide
    > written notification to each member who has the ability to vote. What NR
    > has essentially created is a new class of member a third class if you will -
    > those who are able to receive email (the first and second class are the
    > Assidui/nonAssidui class). This also goes to notifications about dues and
    > votes in general - such notification, per Maine Law - must be done in
    > writing and thusly via surface mail.
    >
    > The other issue is the lack of an annual meeting which must be duly
    > advertised. Thusly, by failure to be in compliant with sectino 603 - we
    > become automatically non-complaint per section 602.2 which states:
    >
    > 2. Annual meetings. A meeting shall be held annually at such time as may be
    > provided in the articles of incorporation or bylaws. If there shall be a
    > failure, for whatever reason, to hold the annual meeting for a period of 30
    > days after the date for such meeting specified in the bylaws or articles of
    > incorporation, or if no date has been specified, for a period of 13 months
    > after the organization of the corporation or after its last annual meeting,
    > a substitute annual meeting may be called by any person or persons entitled
    > to call a special meeting of the members.
    >
    > While we can hold elections for our magistrates during the annual meeting we
    > have failed to uphold issues of fidicuary duty in that NR has failed to
    > disclose its annual reports and to allow access to said information to our
    > membership -as stated in Section 1620
    >
    > http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/Statutes/13-C/title13-Csec1620.html
    >
    > In this I am going to disclose the entire statute:
    >
    > 1. Financial statements. No later than 5 months after the close of each
    > fiscal year, each corporation that is not a close corporation shall prepare
    > annual financial statements, which may be consolidated or combined
    > statements of the corporation and one or more of its subsidiaries, as
    > appropriate, that include a balance sheet as of the end of the fiscal year,
    > an income statement for that year, and a statement of changes in
    > shareholders' equity for the year unless that information appears elsewhere
    > in the financial statements. If financial statements are prepared for the
    > corporation on the basis of generally accepted accounting principles, the
    > annual financial statements must also be prepared on that basis.
    > [ 2001, c. 640, Pt. A, §2 (NEW); 2001, c. 640, Pt. B, §7 (AFF) .]
    > 2. Written demand for copy of financial statement. Upon written demand of
    > any shareholder of a corporation, the corporation shall mail to that
    > shareholder a copy of the most recent annual financial statement prepared in
    > accordance with subsection 1. If the annual financial statement is reported
    > upon by a public accountant, the accountant's report must accompany it. If
    > the annual financial statement is not reported upon by a public accountant,
    > the statement must be accompanied by a statement of the president or the
    > person responsible for the corporation's accounting records:
    > A. Stating the reporter's reasonable belief whether the statement was
    > prepared on the basis of generally accepted accounting principles and, if
    > not, describing the basis of preparation; and [2001, c. 640, Pt. A, §2
    > (NEW); 2001, c. 640, Pt. B, §7 (AFF).]
    > B. Describing any respects in which the statement was not prepared on a
    > basis of accounting consistent with the statement prepared for the preceding
    > year. [2001, c. 640, Pt. A, §2 (NEW); 2001, c. 640, Pt. B, §7 (AFF).]
    > [ 2001, c. 640, Pt. A, §2 (NEW); 2001, c. 640, Pt. B, §7 (AFF) .]
    > 3. Restrictions on disclosure of financial statement. The articles of
    > incorporation or bylaws of a corporation may impose reasonable restrictions
    > regarding the disclosure of financial information as a condition to delivery
    > of an annual financial statement to a shareholder in accordance with this
    > section.
    >
    > With all due respect - Nova Roma needs to get it's corporate house in order,
    > in all due haste. We need to make sure that we are in compliance with all
    > laws and regulations and there is no better time than the present to begin
    > work in that regards. The elections are not a substitution to the annual
    > meeting!
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63377 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: a.d. XV Kal. Mai.
    Cato omnibus in foro SPD

    Salvete!

    Hodiernus dies est ante diem XV Kalendas Maius; haec dies nefastus est.

    "And when you see the fourth dawn after the Ides,
    The Hyades will set in the sea at night." - Ovid, Fast IV

    "The Pleiades were so named, according to Musaeaus, because fifteen daughters were born to Atlas and Aethra, daughter of Oceanus. Five of them are called Hyades, he shows, because their brother was Hyas, a youth dearly beloved by his sisters. When he was killed in a lion hunt, the five we have mentioned, given over to continual lamentation, are said to have perished. Because they grieved exceedingly at his death, they are called Hyades. The remaining ten brooded over the death of their sisters, and brought death on themselves; because so may experienced the same grief, they were called Pleiades. Alexander says they were called Hyades because they were daughters of Hyas and Boeotia, Pleiades, because born of Pleio, daughter of Oceanus, and Atlas." - Pseudo-Hyginus, Astronomica 2.21

    "Atlas by Pleione or an Oceanid had twelve daughters, and a son, Hyas. The son was killed by a wild boar or a lion, and the sisters, grieving for him, died of this grief. The five of them first put among the stars have their place between the horns of the bull--Phaesyla, Ambrosia, Coronis, Eudora, Polyxo--and are called, from their brother's name, Hyades. In Latin they are called Suculae.
    Some say that since they are arranged in the form of the letter Upsilon they are called Hyades; some, they are so called because they bring rain when they rise, for to rain is hyein in Greek.
    There are those who think they are among the stars because they were the nurses of Father Liber [Dionysos]." - Pseudo-Hyginus, Fabulae 192

    "His [the Constellation Taurus'] head is bespangled with a multitude of stars: The Greeks were wont to call them Hyades, from their bringing rain, the Greek for which is hyein, while our nation stupidly names them Suculae (Suckling-pigs), as though the name Hyades were derived from the word for `pig' not for `rain'." - Cicero, De Natura Deorum 2. 43. 111

    Valete!

    Cato
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63378 From: Maior Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    -Salvete;
    this is the first I've heard of outside complaints? Who is doing it?
    Names please. Just rumor creates a very bad atmosphere, it tarnishes Nova Roma by rumor and innuendo, a terrible thing.

    As I said a good faith effort, would have meant that Gn. Iulius Caesar took his concerns to Equestria Laeca our CFO, and Sabinus the MM project coordinator and spoke to both Consuls, Nova Roma Incs, managing directors, in private to get his questions answered.

    This didn't happen. Instead the website was publically taken down, and a hubbub raised in the Senate and now on the Main List.

    As a director Caesar has a fidciary duty to act in the best interests of our corporation, Was this the best and most efficient manner?

    And the above comes from Equestria Laeca, our CFO. She found our financial records entirely in order.

    optime valete
    M. Hortensia Maior


    >
    >
    > Salvete,
    >
    > If in fact there is *outside* grumbling and filed complaints, then I think all of the donors should be contacted immediately that the project is currently being reviewed for legal compliance, and if inconsistencies are found that their donations will be returned. Hopefully this might kick the legs from under any immediate peril and give the project enough time to get the proper paperwork filed. It would at least demonstrate good faith on our part, should this all go to court.
    >
    > Unfortunately, this will also have a domino effect, because those donors who were not worried will suddenly become worried. So, it would only buy us a little time to get everything in order before the project completely implodes. No matter which way this is spun, NR's reputation will be tarnished. The least NR can do is demonstrate that it is honest in its dealings. Maybe complete and immediate refunds would serve this end best.
    >
    > -Gualterus
    >
    > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "enodia2002" <walkyr@> wrote:
    > >
    > > Salve, et Salvete!
    > >
    > > I've long been of the opinion that if the US Internal Revenue Service were to have a heraldic device it would be a quivering human heart clutched in a mailed fist. Sable, on a field azure.
    > >
    > > Small non-profit organizations get into these kinds of trouble all the time. There's no blame attached, it's just that especially with such an international cast there are some areas which are outside of the group skill set. The bottom line is that as far as corporate compliance and solicitation of funds are concerned, we're doing it wrong and we need to fix it.
    > >
    > > I am personally weaving a grass crown for Equestria Laeca, as it's only because of her heroic efforts that we are in as good a position as we are. There is, however, a great deal of work to be done. Much of it is paperwork, time-consuming and tedious.
    > >
    > > Nova Roma does not have a lot of time. Complaints have been made to various Departments of Justice which have come from OUTSIDE the membership. There are several things which could happen, but I strongly encourage the Senate and membership of NR to take this opportunity to respond to the problems in a calm and efficient manner. The IRS could come in and simply shut us down, but they usually prefer more painful methods. They could very easily fine the organization to death. The State of Maine could simply dissolve the corporation and leave us with nothing.
    > >
    > > If anyone out there is genuinely interested in being of service to Nova Roma, this is your big moment. Your help is needed: no politics, no semantics, no name, no blame.
    > >
    > > Let's just fix it, and move on.
    > >
    > > Optime vale,
    > >
    > > V Rutilia
    > > Scriba, Aedilian Cohors
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Iulius Caesar <gn_iulius_caesar@> wrote:
    > > >
    > > > Cn. Iulius Caesar SPD.
    > > >  
    > > > And I will ignore the Praetors demands as an incitement to commit a criminal offence, which is itself an offence.
    > > >  
    > > > The days of corporate bodies deamnding that their employees and officials comply with illegal demands ended with Enron.
    > > >  
    > > > The Constitution of Nova Roma gives each citizen the right to be bound by the civil rights of his nation state. it is a basic civil right to obey the law. Under Section I.B of the Constittion - the order of legal precedence - the Constitution outweighs any edict/intercessio.
    > > >  
    > > > Some people just can't read law or understand the basic obligations of living in a macronational society, and clearly our praetor falls into that catergory.
    > > >  
    > > > Now get it through all of your heads now. No edict, demand, hullabaloo or general outcry will cause me to commit what I believe to be a mcronational offence. I have been in law enforcement for over 21 years. If my gut tells me something is illegal - I listen to it...not the idiotic rablings and squakings of someone on a keyboard in France.
    > > >  
    > > > Get with the program people. It's called life.
    > > >  
    > > > Now of course if our consul wants to put he site back up - then he can, but my electronic fingerprints will not be on it.
    > > >  
    > > > Optime valete.
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > --- On Fri, 4/17/09, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@ <PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@> wrote:
    > > >
    > > > From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@ <PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@>
    > > > Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    > > > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    > > > Date: Friday, April 17, 2009, 4:51 PM
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > Fl. Galerius Aurelianus s.p.d.
    > > >
    > > > I wrote to Gn. Iulio that as a high school student and college student, I contributed money to a fund I discovered from the material I received in the mail from the AIA for the purpose of stabilization and restoration of the Parthenon in Athens.  Over 20 years went by before the work actually began and some of the repairs have been made using modern materials when the original stones could not be used.  When one is discussing the restoration of a structure more than 2,200 years old, one doesn't think of restoration in terms of months or years but decades.  There were other reasons for the MMP than the restoration of the temple (not to be confused with templum which is the entire sacred enclosure) including putting NR's name out in the academic community.
    > > >
    > > > Gn. Iulio should have brought the matter to the attention of the BoD before he made any unilateral action about taking the website off-line.  Instead, he overstepped his rights and prerogatives of his office.  I will support the action of the praetor since Gn. Iulio has peformed an action against the Senate and People of Nova Roma.
    > > >
    > > > Valete.
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > -----Original Message-----
    > > > From: aerdensrw <aerdensrw@>
    > > > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    > > > Sent: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 9:21 am
    > > > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > I will be interested to see what the Senate's response is to this matter. The reasoning that Cn. Jul. Caesar gave seemed detailed and thorough, by someone who appears to understand the law.
    > > >
    > > > I think the Magna Mater website should REMAIN disabled until someone with a US law degree has provided an equally detailed explanation of why they think the curule aedile's concerns are unwarranted.
    > > >
    > > > With great respect to M. Hortensia Maior, I need to see reasons. Just telling me that a qualified person looked over the books and saw nothing wrong does not adequately allay my concerns. Cn. Jul. Caesar gave very specific details of the problems he sees.
    > > >
    > > > I can't remember if any portion of NR taxes is donated to the Magna Mater project, but if it is, whoever disburses that money could face legal difficultires, as well, if Cn. Jul. Caesar's concerns prove valid. I think we need to see facts--even though legalese makes my brain hurt.
    > > >
    > > > If it is impossible to rebuild the Magna Mater temple on the original site, could it be rebuilt elsewhere? If the goals of the project have 'diverged' from the original goal, in what way were they changed, and is that goal attainable?
    > > >
    > > > The solution to this issue might be as simple as changing the text of the website and informing the current donors of a need to change the goal. It might also be as simple as disabling the donation tool and restoring the rest of the site until this matter can be adequately resolved.
    > > >
    > > > Paulla Corva
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
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    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63379 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    Cato omnibus in foro SPD

    Salvete.

    I have returned to civilization from the wilderness unscathed (though I think I was being watched by bears but gave them no opportunity to carry out their nefarious schemes).

    This whole series of events has left me somewhat speechless.

    The magistrate that the People have given the authority to act regarding certain things - the Magna Mater Project specifically among them - has acted in response to a very real problem that he has discovered.

    He has acted within his authority, he has given clear evidence as to why he acted, what the problem is and the repercussions it could have.

    He has been answered with an intercessio that may well prove to be illegal; we have here a magistrate trying to *force* the res publica into a position where it is quite reasonably being seen to be breaking US law.

    He has been answered by a definition of "restoration" that is so convoluted that it cannot be considered "reasonable" in the context of how donations were made.

    He has been answered by a senator who spouts law as if she understands it - which she clearly and demonstrably does not -, demands the CV of everyone who opens their mouth, and yet refuses to explain how and why she is herself particularly able to expound upon the law.

    I want to try to impress upon us all forever an ever and ever the fact that the res publica *is* the corporation; the Senate *is* the Board of Directors; the magistrates *are* the legal officers of the corporation; the Constitution *is* the bylaws of the corporation. To continue to act as if these are somehow separable - that the corporation can act in violation of US law and yet somehow the res publica can go by untouched - is the height of folly.

    The idea that some magistrates hang on to like a pit bull, that their "imperium" or "auctoritas" or "potestas" somehow makes them immune from obeying the laws of the United States, is obscene in its stupidity.

    It must stop.

    Valete,

    Cato
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63380 From: Titus Iulius Sabinus Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    SALVE!

    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@...> wrote:

    > As I said a good faith effort, would have meant that Gn. Iulius Caesar took his concerns to Equestria Laeca our CFO, and Sabinus the MM project coordinator and spoke to both Consuls, Nova Roma Incs, managing directors, in private to get his questions answered.>>>

    Correction: ...Sabinus the former MMP coordinator (I was project cordinator in 2006 and 2007).

    VALE BENE,
    T. Iulius Sabinus
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63381 From: enodia2002 Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    Salvete,

    The DOJ does not give out names of complainants.

    V Rutilia


    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@...> wrote:
    >
    > -Salvete;
    > this is the first I've heard of outside complaints? Who is doing it?
    > Names please. Just rumor creates a very bad atmosphere, it tarnishes Nova Roma by rumor and innuendo, a terrible thing.
    >
    > As I said a good faith effort, would have meant that Gn. Iulius Caesar took his concerns to Equestria Laeca our CFO, and Sabinus the MM project coordinator and spoke to both Consuls, Nova Roma Incs, managing directors, in private to get his questions answered.
    >
    > This didn't happen. Instead the website was publically taken down, and a hubbub raised in the Senate and now on the Main List.
    >
    > As a director Caesar has a fidciary duty to act in the best interests of our corporation, Was this the best and most efficient manner?
    >
    > And the above comes from Equestria Laeca, our CFO. She found our financial records entirely in order.
    >
    > optime valete
    > M. Hortensia Maior
    >
    >
    > >
    > >
    > > Salvete,
    > >
    > > If in fact there is *outside* grumbling and filed complaints, then I think all of the donors should be contacted immediately that the project is currently being reviewed for legal compliance, and if inconsistencies are found that their donations will be returned. Hopefully this might kick the legs from under any immediate peril and give the project enough time to get the proper paperwork filed. It would at least demonstrate good faith on our part, should this all go to court.
    > >
    > > Unfortunately, this will also have a domino effect, because those donors who were not worried will suddenly become worried. So, it would only buy us a little time to get everything in order before the project completely implodes. No matter which way this is spun, NR's reputation will be tarnished. The least NR can do is demonstrate that it is honest in its dealings. Maybe complete and immediate refunds would serve this end best.
    > >
    > > -Gualterus
    > >
    > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "enodia2002" <walkyr@> wrote:
    > > >
    > > > Salve, et Salvete!
    > > >
    > > > I've long been of the opinion that if the US Internal Revenue Service were to have a heraldic device it would be a quivering human heart clutched in a mailed fist. Sable, on a field azure.
    > > >
    > > > Small non-profit organizations get into these kinds of trouble all the time. There's no blame attached, it's just that especially with such an international cast there are some areas which are outside of the group skill set. The bottom line is that as far as corporate compliance and solicitation of funds are concerned, we're doing it wrong and we need to fix it.
    > > >
    > > > I am personally weaving a grass crown for Equestria Laeca, as it's only because of her heroic efforts that we are in as good a position as we are. There is, however, a great deal of work to be done. Much of it is paperwork, time-consuming and tedious.
    > > >
    > > > Nova Roma does not have a lot of time. Complaints have been made to various Departments of Justice which have come from OUTSIDE the membership. There are several things which could happen, but I strongly encourage the Senate and membership of NR to take this opportunity to respond to the problems in a calm and efficient manner. The IRS could come in and simply shut us down, but they usually prefer more painful methods. They could very easily fine the organization to death. The State of Maine could simply dissolve the corporation and leave us with nothing.
    > > >
    > > > If anyone out there is genuinely interested in being of service to Nova Roma, this is your big moment. Your help is needed: no politics, no semantics, no name, no blame.
    > > >
    > > > Let's just fix it, and move on.
    > > >
    > > > Optime vale,
    > > >
    > > > V Rutilia
    > > > Scriba, Aedilian Cohors
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Iulius Caesar <gn_iulius_caesar@> wrote:
    > > > >
    > > > > Cn. Iulius Caesar SPD.
    > > > >  
    > > > > And I will ignore the Praetors demands as an incitement to commit a criminal offence, which is itself an offence.
    > > > >  
    > > > > The days of corporate bodies deamnding that their employees and officials comply with illegal demands ended with Enron.
    > > > >  
    > > > > The Constitution of Nova Roma gives each citizen the right to be bound by the civil rights of his nation state. it is a basic civil right to obey the law. Under Section I.B of the Constittion - the order of legal precedence - the Constitution outweighs any edict/intercessio.
    > > > >  
    > > > > Some people just can't read law or understand the basic obligations of living in a macronational society, and clearly our praetor falls into that catergory.
    > > > >  
    > > > > Now get it through all of your heads now. No edict, demand, hullabaloo or general outcry will cause me to commit what I believe to be a mcronational offence. I have been in law enforcement for over 21 years. If my gut tells me something is illegal - I listen to it...not the idiotic rablings and squakings of someone on a keyboard in France.
    > > > >  
    > > > > Get with the program people. It's called life.
    > > > >  
    > > > > Now of course if our consul wants to put he site back up - then he can, but my electronic fingerprints will not be on it.
    > > > >  
    > > > > Optime valete.
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > --- On Fri, 4/17/09, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@ <PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@> wrote:
    > > > >
    > > > > From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@ <PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@>
    > > > > Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    > > > > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    > > > > Date: Friday, April 17, 2009, 4:51 PM
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > Fl. Galerius Aurelianus s.p.d.
    > > > >
    > > > > I wrote to Gn. Iulio that as a high school student and college student, I contributed money to a fund I discovered from the material I received in the mail from the AIA for the purpose of stabilization and restoration of the Parthenon in Athens.  Over 20 years went by before the work actually began and some of the repairs have been made using modern materials when the original stones could not be used.  When one is discussing the restoration of a structure more than 2,200 years old, one doesn't think of restoration in terms of months or years but decades.  There were other reasons for the MMP than the restoration of the temple (not to be confused with templum which is the entire sacred enclosure) including putting NR's name out in the academic community.
    > > > >
    > > > > Gn. Iulio should have brought the matter to the attention of the BoD before he made any unilateral action about taking the website off-line.  Instead, he overstepped his rights and prerogatives of his office.  I will support the action of the praetor since Gn. Iulio has peformed an action against the Senate and People of Nova Roma.
    > > > >
    > > > > Valete.
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > -----Original Message-----
    > > > > From: aerdensrw <aerdensrw@>
    > > > > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    > > > > Sent: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 9:21 am
    > > > > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > I will be interested to see what the Senate's response is to this matter. The reasoning that Cn. Jul. Caesar gave seemed detailed and thorough, by someone who appears to understand the law.
    > > > >
    > > > > I think the Magna Mater website should REMAIN disabled until someone with a US law degree has provided an equally detailed explanation of why they think the curule aedile's concerns are unwarranted.
    > > > >
    > > > > With great respect to M. Hortensia Maior, I need to see reasons. Just telling me that a qualified person looked over the books and saw nothing wrong does not adequately allay my concerns. Cn. Jul. Caesar gave very specific details of the problems he sees.
    > > > >
    > > > > I can't remember if any portion of NR taxes is donated to the Magna Mater project, but if it is, whoever disburses that money could face legal difficultires, as well, if Cn. Jul. Caesar's concerns prove valid. I think we need to see facts--even though legalese makes my brain hurt.
    > > > >
    > > > > If it is impossible to rebuild the Magna Mater temple on the original site, could it be rebuilt elsewhere? If the goals of the project have 'diverged' from the original goal, in what way were they changed, and is that goal attainable?
    > > > >
    > > > > The solution to this issue might be as simple as changing the text of the website and informing the current donors of a need to change the goal. It might also be as simple as disabling the donation tool and restoring the rest of the site until this matter can be adequately resolved.
    > > > >
    > > > > Paulla Corva
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
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    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63382 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    Caesar Maori sal.

    As has been explained to you elsewhere, this is about wire fraud.

    As usual your train of logical thought appears to have suffered a derailment
    somewhere just outside the station.

    One of these days just on the basis of sheer odds, you might actually join
    in a discussion and be on the right track, rather than the usual mental
    train wreck that occurs.


    From: Maior
    Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 7:24 PM
    To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO


    -Salvete;
    this is the first I've heard of outside complaints? Who is doing it?
    Names please. Just rumor creates a very bad atmosphere, it tarnishes Nova
    Roma by rumor and innuendo, a terrible thing.

    As I said a good faith effort, would have meant that Gn. Iulius Caesar took
    his concerns to Equestria Laeca our CFO, and Sabinus the MM project
    coordinator and spoke to both Consuls, Nova Roma Incs, managing directors,
    in private to get his questions answered.

    This didn't happen. Instead the website was publically taken down, and a
    hubbub raised in the Senate and now on the Main List.

    As a director Caesar has a fidciary duty to act in the best interests of our
    corporation, Was this the best and most efficient manner?

    And the above comes from Equestria Laeca, our CFO. She found our financial
    records entirely in order.

    optime valete
    M. Hortensia Maior
    /
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63383 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    Salve,

    I think it would certainly help set priorities straight if we knew how and when NR was notified by the DoJ of this. Is there a letter that can be scanned and published on the website?

    Vale,

    Gualterus

    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "enodia2002" <walkyr@...> wrote:
    >
    > Salvete,
    >
    > The DOJ does not give out names of complainants.
    >
    > V Rutilia
    >
    >
    > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@> wrote:
    > >
    > > -Salvete;
    > > this is the first I've heard of outside complaints? Who is doing it?
    > > Names please. Just rumor creates a very bad atmosphere, it tarnishes Nova Roma by rumor and innuendo, a terrible thing.
    > >
    > > As I said a good faith effort, would have meant that Gn. Iulius Caesar took his concerns to Equestria Laeca our CFO, and Sabinus the MM project coordinator and spoke to both Consuls, Nova Roma Incs, managing directors, in private to get his questions answered.
    > >
    > > This didn't happen. Instead the website was publically taken down, and a hubbub raised in the Senate and now on the Main List.
    > >
    > > As a director Caesar has a fidciary duty to act in the best interests of our corporation, Was this the best and most efficient manner?
    > >
    > > And the above comes from Equestria Laeca, our CFO. She found our financial records entirely in order.
    > >
    > > optime valete
    > > M. Hortensia Maior
    > >
    > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > Salvete,
    > > >
    > > > If in fact there is *outside* grumbling and filed complaints, then I think all of the donors should be contacted immediately that the project is currently being reviewed for legal compliance, and if inconsistencies are found that their donations will be returned. Hopefully this might kick the legs from under any immediate peril and give the project enough time to get the proper paperwork filed. It would at least demonstrate good faith on our part, should this all go to court.
    > > >
    > > > Unfortunately, this will also have a domino effect, because those donors who were not worried will suddenly become worried. So, it would only buy us a little time to get everything in order before the project completely implodes. No matter which way this is spun, NR's reputation will be tarnished. The least NR can do is demonstrate that it is honest in its dealings. Maybe complete and immediate refunds would serve this end best.
    > > >
    > > > -Gualterus
    > > >
    > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "enodia2002" <walkyr@> wrote:
    > > > >
    > > > > Salve, et Salvete!
    > > > >
    > > > > I've long been of the opinion that if the US Internal Revenue Service were to have a heraldic device it would be a quivering human heart clutched in a mailed fist. Sable, on a field azure.
    > > > >
    > > > > Small non-profit organizations get into these kinds of trouble all the time. There's no blame attached, it's just that especially with such an international cast there are some areas which are outside of the group skill set. The bottom line is that as far as corporate compliance and solicitation of funds are concerned, we're doing it wrong and we need to fix it.
    > > > >
    > > > > I am personally weaving a grass crown for Equestria Laeca, as it's only because of her heroic efforts that we are in as good a position as we are. There is, however, a great deal of work to be done. Much of it is paperwork, time-consuming and tedious.
    > > > >
    > > > > Nova Roma does not have a lot of time. Complaints have been made to various Departments of Justice which have come from OUTSIDE the membership. There are several things which could happen, but I strongly encourage the Senate and membership of NR to take this opportunity to respond to the problems in a calm and efficient manner. The IRS could come in and simply shut us down, but they usually prefer more painful methods. They could very easily fine the organization to death. The State of Maine could simply dissolve the corporation and leave us with nothing.
    > > > >
    > > > > If anyone out there is genuinely interested in being of service to Nova Roma, this is your big moment. Your help is needed: no politics, no semantics, no name, no blame.
    > > > >
    > > > > Let's just fix it, and move on.
    > > > >
    > > > > Optime vale,
    > > > >
    > > > > V Rutilia
    > > > > Scriba, Aedilian Cohors
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Iulius Caesar <gn_iulius_caesar@> wrote:
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Cn. Iulius Caesar SPD.
    > > > > >  
    > > > > > And I will ignore the Praetors demands as an incitement to commit a criminal offence, which is itself an offence.
    > > > > >  
    > > > > > The days of corporate bodies deamnding that their employees and officials comply with illegal demands ended with Enron.
    > > > > >  
    > > > > > The Constitution of Nova Roma gives each citizen the right to be bound by the civil rights of his nation state. it is a basic civil right to obey the law. Under Section I.B of the Constittion - the order of legal precedence - the Constitution outweighs any edict/intercessio.
    > > > > >  
    > > > > > Some people just can't read law or understand the basic obligations of living in a macronational society, and clearly our praetor falls into that catergory.
    > > > > >  
    > > > > > Now get it through all of your heads now. No edict, demand, hullabaloo or general outcry will cause me to commit what I believe to be a mcronational offence. I have been in law enforcement for over 21 years. If my gut tells me something is illegal - I listen to it...not the idiotic rablings and squakings of someone on a keyboard in France.
    > > > > >  
    > > > > > Get with the program people. It's called life.
    > > > > >  
    > > > > > Now of course if our consul wants to put he site back up - then he can, but my electronic fingerprints will not be on it.
    > > > > >  
    > > > > > Optime valete.
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > > --- On Fri, 4/17/09, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@ <PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@> wrote:
    > > > > >
    > > > > > From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@ <PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@>
    > > > > > Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    > > > > > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    > > > > > Date: Friday, April 17, 2009, 4:51 PM
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Fl. Galerius Aurelianus s.p.d.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > I wrote to Gn. Iulio that as a high school student and college student, I contributed money to a fund I discovered from the material I received in the mail from the AIA for the purpose of stabilization and restoration of the Parthenon in Athens.  Over 20 years went by before the work actually began and some of the repairs have been made using modern materials when the original stones could not be used.  When one is discussing the restoration of a structure more than 2,200 years old, one doesn't think of restoration in terms of months or years but decades.  There were other reasons for the MMP than the restoration of the temple (not to be confused with templum which is the entire sacred enclosure) including putting NR's name out in the academic community.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Gn. Iulio should have brought the matter to the attention of the BoD before he made any unilateral action about taking the website off-line.  Instead, he overstepped his rights and prerogatives of his office.  I will support the action of the praetor since Gn. Iulio has peformed an action against the Senate and People of Nova Roma.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Valete.
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > > -----Original Message-----
    > > > > > From: aerdensrw <aerdensrw@>
    > > > > > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    > > > > > Sent: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 9:21 am
    > > > > > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > > I will be interested to see what the Senate's response is to this matter. The reasoning that Cn. Jul. Caesar gave seemed detailed and thorough, by someone who appears to understand the law.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > I think the Magna Mater website should REMAIN disabled until someone with a US law degree has provided an equally detailed explanation of why they think the curule aedile's concerns are unwarranted.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > With great respect to M. Hortensia Maior, I need to see reasons. Just telling me that a qualified person looked over the books and saw nothing wrong does not adequately allay my concerns. Cn. Jul. Caesar gave very specific details of the problems he sees.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > I can't remember if any portion of NR taxes is donated to the Magna Mater project, but if it is, whoever disburses that money could face legal difficultires, as well, if Cn. Jul. Caesar's concerns prove valid. I think we need to see facts--even though legalese makes my brain hurt.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > If it is impossible to rebuild the Magna Mater temple on the original site, could it be rebuilt elsewhere? If the goals of the project have 'diverged' from the original goal, in what way were they changed, and is that goal attainable?
    > > > > >
    > > > > > The solution to this issue might be as simple as changing the text of the website and informing the current donors of a need to change the goal. It might also be as simple as disabling the donation tool and restoring the rest of the site until this matter can be adequately resolved.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Paulla Corva
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
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    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63384 From: Maior Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    -Maior Caesari Quiritibus spd;
    as I see instead of constructive problem-solving that helps Nova Roma you descend to the ad hominem attack.

    In the law, this is a very common tactic; when your case is worthless, attack your opponent.

    I find it sad, you've been a civis since 2004, do you know Latin? Can you speak it? We've had a ton of great threads: cooking, Roman medicine, but now we're back to this nonsense.

    Gn. Cornelus Lentulus just updated the Latin Phrasebook: do take a look at it and try. http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Latin_phrasebook, he's organizing a festival for the Floralia. He's such a positive person, scholarly, and accomplishes so much in real life; we could all learn from him.

    now I am going to enjoy the Cerialia.
    I pray to Dea Concordalia to bring an end to this bickering
    Marca Hortensia Maior




    >
    > Caesar Maori sal.
    >
    > As has been explained to you elsewhere, this is about wire fraud.
    >
    > As usual your train of logical thought appears to have suffered a derailment
    > somewhere just outside the station.
    >
    > One of these days just on the basis of sheer odds, you might actually join
    > in a discussion and be on the right track, rather than the usual mental
    > train wreck that occurs.
    >
    >
    > From: Maior
    > Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 7:24 PM
    > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    >
    >
    > -Salvete;
    > this is the first I've heard of outside complaints? Who is doing it?
    > Names please. Just rumor creates a very bad atmosphere, it tarnishes Nova
    > Roma by rumor and innuendo, a terrible thing.
    >
    > As I said a good faith effort, would have meant that Gn. Iulius Caesar took
    > his concerns to Equestria Laeca our CFO, and Sabinus the MM project
    > coordinator and spoke to both Consuls, Nova Roma Incs, managing directors,
    > in private to get his questions answered.
    >
    > This didn't happen. Instead the website was publically taken down, and a
    > hubbub raised in the Senate and now on the Main List.
    >
    > As a director Caesar has a fidciary duty to act in the best interests of our
    > corporation, Was this the best and most efficient manner?
    >
    > And the above comes from Equestria Laeca, our CFO. She found our financial
    > records entirely in order.
    >
    > optime valete
    > M. Hortensia Maior
    > /
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63385 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: Re: MMP
    Salve Maior
     
    "As I said a good faith effort, would have meant that Gn. Iulius Caesar took his concerns to Equestria Laeca our CFO, and Sabinus the MM project coordinator and spoke to both Consuls, Nova Roma Inc., managing directors, in private to get his questions answered."

    "This didn't happen. Instead the website was publically taken down, and a hubbub raised in the Senate and now on the Main List."
     
    He did and in the privacy of the Senate list. He did not take the MMP site down and then issue a press release about it. It only came to the ML by the actions of others.
     
    Caesar has done his duty, as he is given the light to see it. We can not ask more of a magistrate nor should we expect less.
     
    Vale
     
    Tiberius Galerius Paulinus


     
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63386 From: enodia2002 Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    Salve,

    I don't know what other notification there was; I found this out by chatting up a couple of assistant AG's trying to find out what it would take to bring us into compliance, and if there were any complaints that we needed to deal with. We're trying very hard to stay under the official radar as much as possible. If we start getting official correspondence (and NR may have, I am not privy to it), the order of magnitude increases. At least they know we are trying.

    The best possible course of action would be to bring in a professional with international non-profit experience who can help get us back on course & give instructions on how to keep us there.

    Vale,
    V Rutilia



    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gualterus_graecus" <waltms1@...> wrote:
    >
    >
    > Salve,
    >
    > I think it would certainly help set priorities straight if we knew how and when NR was notified by the DoJ of this. Is there a letter that can be scanned and published on the website?
    >
    > Vale,
    >
    > Gualterus
    >
    > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "enodia2002" <walkyr@> wrote:
    > >
    > > Salvete,
    > >
    > > The DOJ does not give out names of complainants.
    > >
    > > V Rutilia
    > >
    > >
    > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@> wrote:
    > > >
    > > > -Salvete;
    > > > this is the first I've heard of outside complaints? Who is doing it?
    > > > Names please. Just rumor creates a very bad atmosphere, it tarnishes Nova Roma by rumor and innuendo, a terrible thing.
    > > >
    > > > As I said a good faith effort, would have meant that Gn. Iulius Caesar took his concerns to Equestria Laeca our CFO, and Sabinus the MM project coordinator and spoke to both Consuls, Nova Roma Incs, managing directors, in private to get his questions answered.
    > > >
    > > > This didn't happen. Instead the website was publically taken down, and a hubbub raised in the Senate and now on the Main List.
    > > >
    > > > As a director Caesar has a fidciary duty to act in the best interests of our corporation, Was this the best and most efficient manner?
    > > >
    > > > And the above comes from Equestria Laeca, our CFO. She found our financial records entirely in order.
    > > >
    > > > optime valete
    > > > M. Hortensia Maior
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > Salvete,
    > > > >
    > > > > If in fact there is *outside* grumbling and filed complaints, then I think all of the donors should be contacted immediately that the project is currently being reviewed for legal compliance, and if inconsistencies are found that their donations will be returned. Hopefully this might kick the legs from under any immediate peril and give the project enough time to get the proper paperwork filed. It would at least demonstrate good faith on our part, should this all go to court.
    > > > >
    > > > > Unfortunately, this will also have a domino effect, because those donors who were not worried will suddenly become worried. So, it would only buy us a little time to get everything in order before the project completely implodes. No matter which way this is spun, NR's reputation will be tarnished. The least NR can do is demonstrate that it is honest in its dealings. Maybe complete and immediate refunds would serve this end best.
    > > > >
    > > > > -Gualterus
    > > > >
    > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "enodia2002" <walkyr@> wrote:
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Salve, et Salvete!
    > > > > >
    > > > > > I've long been of the opinion that if the US Internal Revenue Service were to have a heraldic device it would be a quivering human heart clutched in a mailed fist. Sable, on a field azure.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Small non-profit organizations get into these kinds of trouble all the time. There's no blame attached, it's just that especially with such an international cast there are some areas which are outside of the group skill set. The bottom line is that as far as corporate compliance and solicitation of funds are concerned, we're doing it wrong and we need to fix it.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > I am personally weaving a grass crown for Equestria Laeca, as it's only because of her heroic efforts that we are in as good a position as we are. There is, however, a great deal of work to be done. Much of it is paperwork, time-consuming and tedious.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Nova Roma does not have a lot of time. Complaints have been made to various Departments of Justice which have come from OUTSIDE the membership. There are several things which could happen, but I strongly encourage the Senate and membership of NR to take this opportunity to respond to the problems in a calm and efficient manner. The IRS could come in and simply shut us down, but they usually prefer more painful methods. They could very easily fine the organization to death. The State of Maine could simply dissolve the corporation and leave us with nothing.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > If anyone out there is genuinely interested in being of service to Nova Roma, this is your big moment. Your help is needed: no politics, no semantics, no name, no blame.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Let's just fix it, and move on.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Optime vale,
    > > > > >
    > > > > > V Rutilia
    > > > > > Scriba, Aedilian Cohors
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Iulius Caesar <gn_iulius_caesar@> wrote:
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > Cn. Iulius Caesar SPD.
    > > > > > >  
    > > > > > > And I will ignore the Praetors demands as an incitement to commit a criminal offence, which is itself an offence.
    > > > > > >  
    > > > > > > The days of corporate bodies deamnding that their employees and officials comply with illegal demands ended with Enron.
    > > > > > >  
    > > > > > > The Constitution of Nova Roma gives each citizen the right to be bound by the civil rights of his nation state. it is a basic civil right to obey the law. Under Section I.B of the Constittion - the order of legal precedence - the Constitution outweighs any edict/intercessio.
    > > > > > >  
    > > > > > > Some people just can't read law or understand the basic obligations of living in a macronational society, and clearly our praetor falls into that catergory.
    > > > > > >  
    > > > > > > Now get it through all of your heads now. No edict, demand, hullabaloo or general outcry will cause me to commit what I believe to be a mcronational offence. I have been in law enforcement for over 21 years. If my gut tells me something is illegal - I listen to it...not the idiotic rablings and squakings of someone on a keyboard in France.
    > > > > > >  
    > > > > > > Get with the program people. It's called life.
    > > > > > >  
    > > > > > > Now of course if our consul wants to put he site back up - then he can, but my electronic fingerprints will not be on it.
    > > > > > >  
    > > > > > > Optime valete.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > --- On Fri, 4/17/09, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@ <PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@> wrote:
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@ <PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@>
    > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    > > > > > > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    > > > > > > Date: Friday, April 17, 2009, 4:51 PM
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > Fl. Galerius Aurelianus s.p.d.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > I wrote to Gn. Iulio that as a high school student and college student, I contributed money to a fund I discovered from the material I received in the mail from the AIA for the purpose of stabilization and restoration of the Parthenon in Athens.  Over 20 years went by before the work actually began and some of the repairs have been made using modern materials when the original stones could not be used.  When one is discussing the restoration of a structure more than 2,200 years old, one doesn't think of restoration in terms of months or years but decades.  There were other reasons for the MMP than the restoration of the temple (not to be confused with templum which is the entire sacred enclosure) including putting NR's name out in the academic community.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > Gn. Iulio should have brought the matter to the attention of the BoD before he made any unilateral action about taking the website off-line.  Instead, he overstepped his rights and prerogatives of his office.  I will support the action of the praetor since Gn. Iulio has peformed an action against the Senate and People of Nova Roma.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > Valete.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
    > > > > > > From: aerdensrw <aerdensrw@>
    > > > > > > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    > > > > > > Sent: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 9:21 am
    > > > > > > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > I will be interested to see what the Senate's response is to this matter. The reasoning that Cn. Jul. Caesar gave seemed detailed and thorough, by someone who appears to understand the law.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > I think the Magna Mater website should REMAIN disabled until someone with a US law degree has provided an equally detailed explanation of why they think the curule aedile's concerns are unwarranted.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > With great respect to M. Hortensia Maior, I need to see reasons. Just telling me that a qualified person looked over the books and saw nothing wrong does not adequately allay my concerns. Cn. Jul. Caesar gave very specific details of the problems he sees.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > I can't remember if any portion of NR taxes is donated to the Magna Mater project, but if it is, whoever disburses that money could face legal difficultires, as well, if Cn. Jul. Caesar's concerns prove valid. I think we need to see facts--even though legalese makes my brain hurt.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > If it is impossible to rebuild the Magna Mater temple on the original site, could it be rebuilt elsewhere? If the goals of the project have 'diverged' from the original goal, in what way were they changed, and is that goal attainable?
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > The solution to this issue might be as simple as changing the text of the website and informing the current donors of a need to change the goal. It might also be as simple as disabling the donation tool and restoring the rest of the site until this matter can be adequately resolved.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > Paulla Corva
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
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    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63387 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    Cato omnibus in foro sal.

    Salvete.

    Maior you say:

    "...you descend to the ad hominem attack. In the law, this is a very common tactic; when your case is worthless, attack your opponent."

    and then a line later:

    "I find it sad, you've been a civis since 2004, do you know Latin? Can you speak it?"

    Interesting.


    You also wrote:

    "I pray to Dea Concordalia to bring an end to this bickering"

    And here we have, yet again, a voice indicative of the mindset of those who blunder on, actively and willingly dismissive of the law. If the law were obeyed, the "bickering" would cease. Obedience to the law is a sacred responsibility; how can you spit on the Gods and pray to Them with the same mouth?

    Valete,

    Cato
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63388 From: Maior Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    Salve Sabine:
    my pardon, you were former MM project coordinator for 2006-2007. Did Gn. Iulius Caesar get in touch with you at all? Before he posted on the Senate list? Did he ask you the questions that concerned him?
    optime vale
    Maior

    >
    > SALVE!
    >
    > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@> wrote:
    >
    > > As I said a good faith effort, would have meant that Gn. Iulius Caesar took his concerns to Equestria Laeca our CFO, and Sabinus the MM project coordinator and spoke to both Consuls, Nova Roma Incs, managing directors, in private to get his questions answered.>>>
    >
    > Correction: ...Sabinus the former MMP coordinator (I was project cordinator in 2006 and 2007).
    >
    > VALE BENE,
    > T. Iulius Sabinus
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63389 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    Salve,

    I suppose that is true, about staying under the radar. But, then, the senators and/or consuls should call and verify this. If we have some trusted people verify it by phone then it would be just as good, I think.

    -Gualterus

    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "enodia2002" <walkyr@...> wrote:
    >
    > Salve,
    >
    > I don't know what other notification there was; I found this out by chatting up a couple of assistant AG's trying to find out what it would take to bring us into compliance, and if there were any complaints that we needed to deal with. We're trying very hard to stay under the official radar as much as possible. If we start getting official correspondence (and NR may have, I am not privy to it), the order of magnitude increases. At least they know we are trying.
    >
    > The best possible course of action would be to bring in a professional with international non-profit experience who can help get us back on course & give instructions on how to keep us there.
    >
    > Vale,
    > V Rutilia
    >
    >
    >
    > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gualterus_graecus" <waltms1@> wrote:
    > >
    > >
    > > Salve,
    > >
    > > I think it would certainly help set priorities straight if we knew how and when NR was notified by the DoJ of this. Is there a letter that can be scanned and published on the website?
    > >
    > > Vale,
    > >
    > > Gualterus
    > >
    > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "enodia2002" <walkyr@> wrote:
    > > >
    > > > Salvete,
    > > >
    > > > The DOJ does not give out names of complainants.
    > > >
    > > > V Rutilia
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@> wrote:
    > > > >
    > > > > -Salvete;
    > > > > this is the first I've heard of outside complaints? Who is doing it?
    > > > > Names please. Just rumor creates a very bad atmosphere, it tarnishes Nova Roma by rumor and innuendo, a terrible thing.
    > > > >
    > > > > As I said a good faith effort, would have meant that Gn. Iulius Caesar took his concerns to Equestria Laeca our CFO, and Sabinus the MM project coordinator and spoke to both Consuls, Nova Roma Incs, managing directors, in private to get his questions answered.
    > > > >
    > > > > This didn't happen. Instead the website was publically taken down, and a hubbub raised in the Senate and now on the Main List.
    > > > >
    > > > > As a director Caesar has a fidciary duty to act in the best interests of our corporation, Was this the best and most efficient manner?
    > > > >
    > > > > And the above comes from Equestria Laeca, our CFO. She found our financial records entirely in order.
    > > > >
    > > > > optime valete
    > > > > M. Hortensia Maior
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Salvete,
    > > > > >
    > > > > > If in fact there is *outside* grumbling and filed complaints, then I think all of the donors should be contacted immediately that the project is currently being reviewed for legal compliance, and if inconsistencies are found that their donations will be returned. Hopefully this might kick the legs from under any immediate peril and give the project enough time to get the proper paperwork filed. It would at least demonstrate good faith on our part, should this all go to court.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Unfortunately, this will also have a domino effect, because those donors who were not worried will suddenly become worried. So, it would only buy us a little time to get everything in order before the project completely implodes. No matter which way this is spun, NR's reputation will be tarnished. The least NR can do is demonstrate that it is honest in its dealings. Maybe complete and immediate refunds would serve this end best.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > -Gualterus
    > > > > >
    > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "enodia2002" <walkyr@> wrote:
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > Salve, et Salvete!
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > I've long been of the opinion that if the US Internal Revenue Service were to have a heraldic device it would be a quivering human heart clutched in a mailed fist. Sable, on a field azure.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > Small non-profit organizations get into these kinds of trouble all the time. There's no blame attached, it's just that especially with such an international cast there are some areas which are outside of the group skill set. The bottom line is that as far as corporate compliance and solicitation of funds are concerned, we're doing it wrong and we need to fix it.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > I am personally weaving a grass crown for Equestria Laeca, as it's only because of her heroic efforts that we are in as good a position as we are. There is, however, a great deal of work to be done. Much of it is paperwork, time-consuming and tedious.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > Nova Roma does not have a lot of time. Complaints have been made to various Departments of Justice which have come from OUTSIDE the membership. There are several things which could happen, but I strongly encourage the Senate and membership of NR to take this opportunity to respond to the problems in a calm and efficient manner. The IRS could come in and simply shut us down, but they usually prefer more painful methods. They could very easily fine the organization to death. The State of Maine could simply dissolve the corporation and leave us with nothing.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > If anyone out there is genuinely interested in being of service to Nova Roma, this is your big moment. Your help is needed: no politics, no semantics, no name, no blame.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > Let's just fix it, and move on.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > Optime vale,
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > V Rutilia
    > > > > > > Scriba, Aedilian Cohors
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Iulius Caesar <gn_iulius_caesar@> wrote:
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > Cn. Iulius Caesar SPD.
    > > > > > > >  
    > > > > > > > And I will ignore the Praetors demands as an incitement to commit a criminal offence, which is itself an offence.
    > > > > > > >  
    > > > > > > > The days of corporate bodies deamnding that their employees and officials comply with illegal demands ended with Enron.
    > > > > > > >  
    > > > > > > > The Constitution of Nova Roma gives each citizen the right to be bound by the civil rights of his nation state. it is a basic civil right to obey the law. Under Section I.B of the Constittion - the order of legal precedence - the Constitution outweighs any edict/intercessio.
    > > > > > > >  
    > > > > > > > Some people just can't read law or understand the basic obligations of living in a macronational society, and clearly our praetor falls into that catergory.
    > > > > > > >  
    > > > > > > > Now get it through all of your heads now. No edict, demand, hullabaloo or general outcry will cause me to commit what I believe to be a mcronational offence. I have been in law enforcement for over 21 years. If my gut tells me something is illegal - I listen to it...not the idiotic rablings and squakings of someone on a keyboard in France.
    > > > > > > >  
    > > > > > > > Get with the program people. It's called life.
    > > > > > > >  
    > > > > > > > Now of course if our consul wants to put he site back up - then he can, but my electronic fingerprints will not be on it.
    > > > > > > >  
    > > > > > > > Optime valete.
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 4/17/09, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@ <PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@> wrote:
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@ <PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@>
    > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    > > > > > > > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    > > > > > > > Date: Friday, April 17, 2009, 4:51 PM
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > Fl. Galerius Aurelianus s.p.d.
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > I wrote to Gn. Iulio that as a high school student and college student, I contributed money to a fund I discovered from the material I received in the mail from the AIA for the purpose of stabilization and restoration of the Parthenon in Athens.  Over 20 years went by before the work actually began and some of the repairs have been made using modern materials when the original stones could not be used.  When one is discussing the restoration of a structure more than 2,200 years old, one doesn't think of restoration in terms of months or years but decades.  There were other reasons for the MMP than the restoration of the temple (not to be confused with templum which is the entire sacred enclosure) including putting NR's name out in the academic community.
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > Gn. Iulio should have brought the matter to the attention of the BoD before he made any unilateral action about taking the website off-line.  Instead, he overstepped his rights and prerogatives of his office.  I will support the action of the praetor since Gn. Iulio has peformed an action against the Senate and People of Nova Roma.
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > Valete.
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
    > > > > > > > From: aerdensrw <aerdensrw@>
    > > > > > > > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    > > > > > > > Sent: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 9:21 am
    > > > > > > > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > I will be interested to see what the Senate's response is to this matter. The reasoning that Cn. Jul. Caesar gave seemed detailed and thorough, by someone who appears to understand the law.
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > I think the Magna Mater website should REMAIN disabled until someone with a US law degree has provided an equally detailed explanation of why they think the curule aedile's concerns are unwarranted.
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > With great respect to M. Hortensia Maior, I need to see reasons. Just telling me that a qualified person looked over the books and saw nothing wrong does not adequately allay my concerns. Cn. Jul. Caesar gave very specific details of the problems he sees.
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > I can't remember if any portion of NR taxes is donated to the Magna Mater project, but if it is, whoever disburses that money could face legal difficultires, as well, if Cn. Jul. Caesar's concerns prove valid. I think we need to see facts--even though legalese makes my brain hurt.
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > If it is impossible to rebuild the Magna Mater temple on the original site, could it be rebuilt elsewhere? If the goals of the project have 'diverged' from the original goal, in what way were they changed, and is that goal attainable?
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > The solution to this issue might be as simple as changing the text of the website and informing the current donors of a need to change the goal. It might also be as simple as disabling the donation tool and restoring the rest of the site until this matter can be adequately resolved.
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > Paulla Corva
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > >
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    > > > > > > >
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    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63390 From: Titus Iulius Sabinus Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    SALVE!

    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@...> wrote:

    > my pardon,>>>

    No problem.

    > you were former MM project coordinator for 2006-2007. Did Gn. Iulius Caesar get in touch with you at all? Before he posted on the Senate list? Did he ask you the questions that concerned him?

    No.

    VALE BENE,
    T. Iulius Sabinus
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63391 From: Maior Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: Re: Roman attitudes to the law [was MMP suspension of website - I
    Maior Catoni Quiritibus spd;
    Cato, your opinon: below is totally unRoman..

    CATO: "Obedience to the law is a sacred responsibility; how can you spit on the Gods and pray to Them with the same mouth?"

    I wrote to my friend A. Apollonius Cordus who studied Classics and is a Barrister (undergoing pupillage) about Roman attitudes to the law and his reply was:

    "we tend to assume ....a léx enacted in an illegal way must be automatically invalid, or that a cónsul elected by improper procedures is not really cónsul, but in fact in the Roman republic this was not the case"

    And here are his examples:

    "Similarly, just about all of C. Caesar's consular legislation of 59 in defiance of both tribunician veto and consular obnuntiátió, but the validity of his légés was unchallenged. The cónsulés of 162, P. Scipió Násica and C. Figulus, were elected under faulty auspices, but when this was discovered they were still regarded as being the legitimate cónsulés until they voluntarily abdicated (Valerius Maximus, 1.1.3; Plutarch, 'Marcellus', 5.1-3)."

    So Caesar's illegal legislation was upheld, and there were elections under faulty auspices.

    Your statement below is plain wrong and has nothing to do with Roman attitudes to the law, the gods or or Roman history.

    And it is the Cerialia, I honor Dea Ceres, Concordia and the true Roman way.
    bene vale in pacem Cereris
    Marca Hortensia Maior

    "Obedience to the law is a sacred responsibility; how can you spit on the Gods and pray to Them with the same mouth?"
    >
    > Valete,
    >
    > Cato
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63392 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: Re: MMP Refunds
    Salvete
     
    The MMP website lists my donations amounting to just under $140USD. I wish that amount
    to be refunded and given to the Nova Roma land fund.
     
    Valete
     
    Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     

    To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    From: waltms1@...
    Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 00:57:22 +0000
    Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO




    Salvete,

    If in fact there is *outside* grumbling and filed complaints, then I think all of the donors should be contacted immediately that the project is currently being reviewed for legal compliance, and if inconsistencies are found that their donations will be returned. Hopefully this might kick the legs from under any immediate peril and give the project enough time to get the proper paperwork filed. It would at least demonstrate good faith on our part, should this all go to court.

    Unfortunately, this will also have a domino effect, because those donors who were not worried will suddenly become worried. So, it would only buy us a little time to get everything in order before the project completely implodes. No matter which way this is spun, NR's reputation will be tarnished. The least NR can do is demonstrate that it is honest in its dealings. Maybe complete and immediate refunds would serve this end best.

    -Gualterus

    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, "enodia2002" <walkyr@...> wrote:
    >
    > Salve, et Salvete!
    >
    > I've long been of the opinion that if the US Internal Revenue Service were to have a heraldic device it would be a quivering human heart clutched in a mailed fist. Sable, on a field azure.
    >
    > Small non-profit organizations get into these kinds of trouble all the time. There's no blame attached, it's just that especially with such an international cast there are some areas which are outside of the group skill set. The bottom line is that as far as corporate compliance and solicitation of funds are concerned, we're doing it wrong and we need to fix it.
    >
    > I am personally weaving a grass crown for Equestria Laeca, as it's only because of her heroic efforts that we are in as good a position as we are. There is, however, a great deal of work to be done. Much of it is paperwork, time-consuming and tedious.
    >
    > Nova Roma does not have a lot of time. Complaints have been made to various Departments of Justice which have come from OUTSIDE the membership. There are several things which could happen, but I strongly encourage the Senate and membership of NR to take this opportunity to respond to the problems in a calm and efficient manner. The IRS could come in and simply shut us down, but they usually prefer more painful methods. They could very easily fine the organization to death. The State of Maine could simply dissolve the corporation and leave us with nothing.
    >
    > If anyone out there is genuinely interested in being of service to Nova Roma, this is your big moment. Your help is needed: no politics, no semantics, no name, no blame.
    >
    > Let's just fix it, and move on.
    >
    > Optime vale,
    >
    > V Rutilia
    > Scriba, Aedilian Cohors
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, Gnaeus Iulius Caesar <gn_iulius_caesar@ > wrote:
    > >
    > > Cn. Iulius Caesar SPD.
    > >  
    > > And I will ignore the Praetors demands as an incitement to commit a criminal offence, which is itself an offence.
    > >  
    > > The days of corporate bodies deamnding that their employees and officials comply with illegal demands ended with Enron.
    > >  
    > > The Constitution of Nova Roma gives each citizen the right to be bound by the civil rights of his nation state. it is a basic civil right to obey the law. Under Section I.B of the Constittion - the order of legal precedence - the Constitution outweighs any edict/intercessio.
    > >  
    > > Some people just can't read law or understand the basic obligations of living in a macronational society, and clearly our praetor falls into that catergory.
    > >  
    > > Now get it through all of your heads now. No edict, demand, hullabaloo or general outcry will cause me to commit what I believe to be a mcronational offence. I have been in law enforcement for over 21 years. If my gut tells me something is illegal - I listen to it...not the idiotic rablings and squakings of someone on a keyboard in France.
    > >  
    > > Get with the program people. It's called life.
    > >  
    > > Now of course if our consul wants to put he site back up - then he can, but my electronic fingerprints will not be on it.
    > >  
    > > Optime valete.
    > >
    > >
    > > --- On Fri, 4/17/09, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@ <PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@ > wrote:
    > >
    > > From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@ <PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@ >
    > > Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    > > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
    > > Date: Friday, April 17, 2009, 4:51 PM
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Fl. Galerius Aurelianus s.p.d.
    > >
    > > I wrote to Gn. Iulio that as a high school student and college student, I contributed money to a fund I discovered from the material I received in the mail from the AIA for the purpose of stabilization and restoration of the Parthenon in Athens.  Over 20 years went by before the work actually began and some of the repairs have been made using modern materials when the original stones could not be used.  When one is discussing the restoration of a structure more than 2,200 years old, one doesn't think of restoration in terms of months or years but decades.  There were other reasons for the MMP than the restoration of the temple (not to be confused with templum which is the entire sacred enclosure) including putting NR's name out in the academic community.
    > >
    > > Gn. Iulio should have brought the matter to the attention of the BoD before he made any unilateral action about taking the website off-line.  Instead, he overstepped his rights and prerogatives of his office.  I will support the action of the praetor since Gn. Iulio has peformed an action against the Senate and People of Nova Roma.
    > >
    > > Valete.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > -----Original Message-----
    > > From: aerdensrw <aerdensrw@>
    > > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
    > > Sent: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 9:21 am
    > > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > I will be interested to see what the Senate's response is to this matter. The reasoning that Cn. Jul. Caesar gave seemed detailed and thorough, by someone who appears to understand the law.
    > >
    > > I think the Magna Mater website should REMAIN disabled until someone with a US law degree has provided an equally detailed explanation of why they think the curule aedile's concerns are unwarranted.
    > >
    > > With great respect to M. Hortensia Maior, I need to see reasons. Just telling me that a qualified person looked over the books and saw nothing wrong does not adequately allay my concerns. Cn. Jul. Caesar gave very specific details of the problems he sees.
    > >
    > > I can't remember if any portion of NR taxes is donated to the Magna Mater project, but if it is, whoever disburses that money could face legal difficultires, as well, if Cn. Jul. Caesar's concerns prove valid. I think we need to see facts--even though legalese makes my brain hurt.
    > >
    > > If it is impossible to rebuild the Magna Mater temple on the original site, could it be rebuilt elsewhere? If the goals of the project have 'diverged' from the original goal, in what way were they changed, and is that goal attainable?
    > >
    > > The solution to this issue might be as simple as changing the text of the website and informing the current donors of a need to change the goal. It might also be as simple as disabling the donation tool and restoring the rest of the site until this matter can be adequately resolved.
    > >
    > > Paulla Corva
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > #yiv1765509809 #AOLMsgPart_ 2_eb4afbf9- 1abe-4032- 895d-c8097916593 a #ygrp-mkp{border: 1px solid #d8d8d8;font- family:Arial; margin:14px 0px;padding: 0px 14px;}#yiv176550980 9 #AOLMsgPart_ 2_eb4afbf9- 1abe-4032- 895d-c8097916593 a #ygrp-mkp hr{border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv176550 9809 #AOLMsgPart_ 2_eb4afbf9- 1abe-4032- 895d-c8097916593 a #ygrp-mkp #hd{color:#628c2a; font-size: 85%;font- weight:bold; line-height: 122%;margin: 10px 0px;}#yiv1765509809 #AOLMsgPart_ 2_eb4afbf9- 1abe-4032- 895d-c8097916593 a #ygrp-mkp #ads{margin- bottom:10px; }#yiv1765509809 #AOLMsgPart_ 2_eb4afbf9- 1abe-4032- 895d-c8097916593 a #ygrp-mkp .ad{padding: 0 0;}#yiv1765509809 #AOLMsgPart_ 2_eb4afbf9- 1abe-4032- 895d-c8097916593 a #ygrp-mkp .ad a{color:#0000ff; text-decoration: none;}
    > >
    > > #yiv1765509809 #AOLMsgPart_ 2_eb4afbf9- 1abe-4032- 895d-c8097916593 a #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc{font- family:Arial; }#yiv1765509809 #AOLMsgPart_ 2_eb4afbf9- 1abe-4032- 895d-c8097916593 a #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd{margin:10px 0px;font-weight: bold;font- size:78%; line-height: 122%;}#yiv176550 9809 #AOLMsgPart_ 2_eb4afbf9- 1abe-4032- 895d-c8097916593 a #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad{margin-bottom: 10px;padding: 0 0;}
    > >
    > > #yiv1765509809 #AOLMsgPart_ 2_eb4afbf9- 1abe-4032- 895d-c8097916593 a #ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px; font-family: arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #yiv1765509809 #AOLMsgPart_ 2_eb4afbf9- 1abe-4032- 895d-c8097916593 a #ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit; font:100% ;}#yiv1765509809 #AOLMsgPart_ 2_eb4afbf9- 1abe-4032- 895d-c8097916593 a #ygrp-mlmsg select, #yiv1765509809 #AOLMsgPart_ 2_eb4afbf9- 1abe-4032- 895d-c8097916593 a input, #yiv1765509809 #AOLMsgPart_ 2_eb4afbf9- 1abe-4032- 895d-c8097916593 a textarea {font:99% arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #yiv1765509809 #AOLMsgPart_ 2_eb4afbf9- 1abe-4032- 895d-c8097916593 a #ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv1765509809 #AOLMsgPart_ 2_eb4afbf9- 1abe-4032- 895d-c8097916593 a code {font:115% monospace;}# yiv1765509809 #AOLMsgPart_ 2_eb4afbf9- 1abe-4032- 895d-c8097916593 a #ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height: 1.22em;}# yiv1765509809 #AOLMsgPart_ 2_eb4afbf9- 1abe-4032- 895d-c8097916593 a #ygrp-text{font- family:Georgia; }#yiv1765509809
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    > >
    > >
    > > #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{padding:0 0 0 8px;margin:0; }#yiv1765509809 #AOLMsgPart_ 2_eb4afbf9- 1abe-4032- 895d-c8097916593 a #ygrp-sponsor #ov li{list-style- type:square; padding:6px 0;font-size: 77%;}#yiv1765509 809 #AOLMsgPart_ 2_eb4afbf9- 1abe-4032- 895d-c8097916593 a #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{text-decoration: none;font- size:130% ;}#yiv1765509809 #AOLMsgPart_ 2_eb4afbf9- 1abe-4032- 895d-c8097916593 a #ygrp-sponsor #nc{background- color:#eee; margin-bottom: 20px;padding: 0 8px;}#yiv1765509809 #AOLMsgPart_ 2_eb4afbf9- 1abe-4032- 895d-c8097916593 a #ygrp-sponsor .ad{padding: 8px 0;}#yiv1765509809 #AOLMsgPart_ 2_eb4afbf9- 1abe-4032- 895d-c8097916593 a #ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{font-family: Arial;font- weight:bold; color:#628c2a; font-size: 100%;line- height:122% ;}#yiv1765509809 #AOLMsgPart_ 2_eb4afbf9- 1abe-4032- 895d-c8097916593 a #ygrp-sponsor .ad a{text-decoration: none;}#yiv176550 9809 #AOLMsgPart_ 2_eb4afbf9- 1abe-4032- 895d-c8097916593 a #ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{text- decoration: underline; }#yiv1765509809
    > > #AOLMsgPart_ 2_eb4afbf9- 1abe-4032- 895d-c8097916593 a #ygrp-sponsor .ad p{margin:0;font- weight:normal; color:#000000; }#yiv1765509809 #AOLMsgPart_ 2_eb4afbf9- 1abe-4032- 895d-c8097916593 a o{font-size: 0;}#yiv176550980 9 #AOLMsgPart_ 2_eb4afbf9- 1abe-4032- 895d-c8097916593 a .MsoNormal{margin: 0 0 0 0;}#yiv1765509809 #AOLMsgPart_ 2_eb4afbf9- 1abe-4032- 895d-c8097916593 a #ygrp-text tt{font-size: 120%;}#yiv176550 9809 #AOLMsgPart_ 2_eb4afbf9- 1abe-4032- 895d-c8097916593 a blockquote{margin: 0 0 0 4px;}#yiv1765509809 #AOLMsgPart_ 2_eb4afbf9- 1abe-4032- 895d-c8097916593 a .replbq{margin: 4;}#yiv176550980 9 #AOLMsgPart_ 2_eb4afbf9- 1abe-4032- 895d-c8097916593 a dd.last p span {margin-right: 10px;font- family:Verdana; font-weight: bold;}#yiv176550 9809 #AOLMsgPart_ 2_eb4afbf9- 1abe-4032- 895d-c8097916593 a dd.last p span.yshortcuts {margin-right: 0;}#yiv176550980 9 #AOLMsgPart_ 2_eb4afbf9- 1abe-4032- 895d-c8097916593 a div.photo-title a, #yiv1765509809 #AOLMsgPart_ 2_eb4afbf9- 1abe-4032- 895d-c8097916593 a
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    > >
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    > > le-title a, #yiv1765509809 #AOLMsgPart_ 2_eb4afbf9- 1abe-4032- 895d-c8097916593 a div.file-title a:active, #yiv1765509809 #AOLMsgPart_ 2_eb4afbf9- 1abe-4032- 895d-c8097916593 a div.file-title a:hover, #yiv1765509809 #AOLMsgPart_ 2_eb4afbf9- 1abe-4032- 895d-c8097916593 a div.file-title a:visited {text-decoration: none;}#yiv176550 9809 #AOLMsgPart_ 2_eb4afbf9- 1abe-4032- 895d-c8097916593 a #ygrp-msg p#attach-count {clear:both; padding:15px 0 3px 0;overflow:hidden; }#yiv1765509809 #AOLMsgPart_ 2_eb4afbf9- 1abe-4032- 895d-c8097916593 a #ygrp-msg p#attach-count span {color:#1E66AE; font-weight: bold;}#yiv176550 9809 #AOLMsgPart_ 2_eb4afbf9- 1abe-4032- 895d-c8097916593 a div#ygrp-mlmsg #ygrp-msg p a span.yshortcuts {font-family: Verdana;font- size:10px; font-weight: normal;}# yiv1765509809 #AOLMsgPart_ 2_eb4afbf9- 1abe-4032- 895d-c8097916593 a #ygrp-msg p a {font-family: Verdana;font- size:10px; }#yiv1765509809 #AOLMsgPart_ 2_eb4afbf9- 1abe-4032- 895d-c8097916593 a #ygrp-mlmsg a
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    >


    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63393 From: enodia2002 Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    Ok, hands up. How many of you know what a URS is? How many of you know what supporting documents have to be filed in California? In Maryland? In Massachusetts? You've done fundraising in all those states.

    If the consuls want to get off their upholstered asses and deal with this, fine. They can do their own research and make their own contacts.

    V Ritulia





    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gualterus_graecus" <waltms1@...> wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    > Salve,
    >
    > I suppose that is true, about staying under the radar. But, then, the senators and/or consuls should call and verify this. If we have some trusted people verify it by phone then it would be just as good, I think.
    >
    > -Gualterus
    >
    > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "enodia2002" <walkyr@> wrote:
    > >
    > > Salve,
    > >
    > > I don't know what other notification there was; I found this out by chatting up a couple of assistant AG's trying to find out what it would take to bring us into compliance, and if there were any complaints that we needed to deal with. We're trying very hard to stay under the official radar as much as possible. If we start getting official correspondence (and NR may have, I am not privy to it), the order of magnitude increases. At least they know we are trying.
    > >
    > > The best possible course of action would be to bring in a professional with international non-profit experience who can help get us back on course & give instructions on how to keep us there.
    > >
    > > Vale,
    > > V Rutilia
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gualterus_graecus" <waltms1@> wrote:
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > Salve,
    > > >
    > > > I think it would certainly help set priorities straight if we knew how and when NR was notified by the DoJ of this. Is there a letter that can be scanned and published on the website?
    > > >
    > > > Vale,
    > > >
    > > > Gualterus
    > > >
    > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "enodia2002" <walkyr@> wrote:
    > > > >
    > > > > Salvete,
    > > > >
    > > > > The DOJ does not give out names of complainants.
    > > > >
    > > > > V Rutilia
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@> wrote:
    > > > > >
    > > > > > -Salvete;
    > > > > > this is the first I've heard of outside complaints? Who is doing it?
    > > > > > Names please. Just rumor creates a very bad atmosphere, it tarnishes Nova Roma by rumor and innuendo, a terrible thing.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > As I said a good faith effort, would have meant that Gn. Iulius Caesar took his concerns to Equestria Laeca our CFO, and Sabinus the MM project coordinator and spoke to both Consuls, Nova Roma Incs, managing directors, in private to get his questions answered.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > This didn't happen. Instead the website was publically taken down, and a hubbub raised in the Senate and now on the Main List.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > As a director Caesar has a fidciary duty to act in the best interests of our corporation, Was this the best and most efficient manner?
    > > > > >
    > > > > > And the above comes from Equestria Laeca, our CFO. She found our financial records entirely in order.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > optime valete
    > > > > > M. Hortensia Maior
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > Salvete,
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > If in fact there is *outside* grumbling and filed complaints, then I think all of the donors should be contacted immediately that the project is currently being reviewed for legal compliance, and if inconsistencies are found that their donations will be returned. Hopefully this might kick the legs from under any immediate peril and give the project enough time to get the proper paperwork filed. It would at least demonstrate good faith on our part, should this all go to court.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > Unfortunately, this will also have a domino effect, because those donors who were not worried will suddenly become worried. So, it would only buy us a little time to get everything in order before the project completely implodes. No matter which way this is spun, NR's reputation will be tarnished. The least NR can do is demonstrate that it is honest in its dealings. Maybe complete and immediate refunds would serve this end best.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > -Gualterus
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "enodia2002" <walkyr@> wrote:
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > Salve, et Salvete!
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > I've long been of the opinion that if the US Internal Revenue Service were to have a heraldic device it would be a quivering human heart clutched in a mailed fist. Sable, on a field azure.
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > Small non-profit organizations get into these kinds of trouble all the time. There's no blame attached, it's just that especially with such an international cast there are some areas which are outside of the group skill set. The bottom line is that as far as corporate compliance and solicitation of funds are concerned, we're doing it wrong and we need to fix it.
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > I am personally weaving a grass crown for Equestria Laeca, as it's only because of her heroic efforts that we are in as good a position as we are. There is, however, a great deal of work to be done. Much of it is paperwork, time-consuming and tedious.
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > Nova Roma does not have a lot of time. Complaints have been made to various Departments of Justice which have come from OUTSIDE the membership. There are several things which could happen, but I strongly encourage the Senate and membership of NR to take this opportunity to respond to the problems in a calm and efficient manner. The IRS could come in and simply shut us down, but they usually prefer more painful methods. They could very easily fine the organization to death. The State of Maine could simply dissolve the corporation and leave us with nothing.
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > If anyone out there is genuinely interested in being of service to Nova Roma, this is your big moment. Your help is needed: no politics, no semantics, no name, no blame.
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > Let's just fix it, and move on.
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > Optime vale,
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > V Rutilia
    > > > > > > > Scriba, Aedilian Cohors
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Iulius Caesar <gn_iulius_caesar@> wrote:
    > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > Cn. Iulius Caesar SPD.
    > > > > > > > >  
    > > > > > > > > And I will ignore the Praetors demands as an incitement to commit a criminal offence, which is itself an offence.
    > > > > > > > >  
    > > > > > > > > The days of corporate bodies deamnding that their employees and officials comply with illegal demands ended with Enron.
    > > > > > > > >  
    > > > > > > > > The Constitution of Nova Roma gives each citizen the right to be bound by the civil rights of his nation state. it is a basic civil right to obey the law. Under Section I.B of the Constittion - the order of legal precedence - the Constitution outweighs any edict/intercessio.
    > > > > > > > >  
    > > > > > > > > Some people just can't read law or understand the basic obligations of living in a macronational society, and clearly our praetor falls into that catergory.
    > > > > > > > >  
    > > > > > > > > Now get it through all of your heads now. No edict, demand, hullabaloo or general outcry will cause me to commit what I believe to be a mcronational offence. I have been in law enforcement for over 21 years. If my gut tells me something is illegal - I listen to it...not the idiotic rablings and squakings of someone on a keyboard in France.
    > > > > > > > >  
    > > > > > > > > Get with the program people. It's called life.
    > > > > > > > >  
    > > > > > > > > Now of course if our consul wants to put he site back up - then he can, but my electronic fingerprints will not be on it.
    > > > > > > > >  
    > > > > > > > > Optime valete.
    > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 4/17/09, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@ <PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@> wrote:
    > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@ <PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@>
    > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    > > > > > > > > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    > > > > > > > > Date: Friday, April 17, 2009, 4:51 PM
    > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > Fl. Galerius Aurelianus s.p.d.
    > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > I wrote to Gn. Iulio that as a high school student and college student, I contributed money to a fund I discovered from the material I received in the mail from the AIA for the purpose of stabilization and restoration of the Parthenon in Athens.  Over 20 years went by before the work actually began and some of the repairs have been made using modern materials when the original stones could not be used.  When one is discussing the restoration of a structure more than 2,200 years old, one doesn't think of restoration in terms of months or years but decades.  There were other reasons for the MMP than the restoration of the temple (not to be confused with templum which is the entire sacred enclosure) including putting NR's name out in the academic community.
    > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > Gn. Iulio should have brought the matter to the attention of the BoD before he made any unilateral action about taking the website off-line.  Instead, he overstepped his rights and prerogatives of his office.  I will support the action of the praetor since Gn. Iulio has peformed an action against the Senate and People of Nova Roma.
    > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > Valete.
    > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
    > > > > > > > > From: aerdensrw <aerdensrw@>
    > > > > > > > > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    > > > > > > > > Sent: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 9:21 am
    > > > > > > > > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > I will be interested to see what the Senate's response is to this matter. The reasoning that Cn. Jul. Caesar gave seemed detailed and thorough, by someone who appears to understand the law.
    > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > I think the Magna Mater website should REMAIN disabled until someone with a US law degree has provided an equally detailed explanation of why they think the curule aedile's concerns are unwarranted.
    > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > With great respect to M. Hortensia Maior, I need to see reasons. Just telling me that a qualified person looked over the books and saw nothing wrong does not adequately allay my concerns. Cn. Jul. Caesar gave very specific details of the problems he sees.
    > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > I can't remember if any portion of NR taxes is donated to the Magna Mater project, but if it is, whoever disburses that money could face legal difficultires, as well, if Cn. Jul. Caesar's concerns prove valid. I think we need to see facts--even though legalese makes my brain hurt.
    > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > If it is impossible to rebuild the Magna Mater temple on the original site, could it be rebuilt elsewhere? If the goals of the project have 'diverged' from the original goal, in what way were they changed, and is that goal attainable?
    > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > The solution to this issue might be as simple as changing the text of the website and informing the current donors of a need to change the goal. It might also be as simple as disabling the donation tool and restoring the rest of the site until this matter can be adequately resolved.
    > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > Paulla Corva
    > > > > > > > >
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    > > > > > > > >
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    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63394 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    Cn. Iulius Caesar SPD.
     
    And that would be because this was all debated over and over again over the years in the Senate and the Main List and the various lists relating to the MMP and the Cohors. Unless Sabinus is an expert in US law relating to donations, fraud etc. I am at a loss to know what light he could shed on the matter.....
     
    unless.....
     
    he had another definition of restore for me to grapple with. Yes, that must be it. Clearly no expert in wire fraud, nor the problems of using funds obtained under the revolving definition of 'restore". Maybe I should have asked Sabinus to hypnotize me into believing this was a functional project? He and I may differ on some things over this, maybe all, but I don't think he has fallen into the worship of this sacred cow. Now of course one has to ask why are various people fighting so hard to keep alive a project that is riddled with legal conundrums, flaws and a general disjointed approach?
     
    Well, it doesn't really matter you see, as long as we can point to this flagship of our efforts, as it sinks slowly beneath the waves in the choppy seas of illegality. Never mind that it looks, smells and tastes like wire fraud. let us climb aboard the NRS Titantic II and set sail for the promised land of restoration...of..oh hang on is it a temple or a roof? Well never mind let's just point the boat out to open sea and full steam ahead and ignore the FBI or the AG or the DoJ or any other pesky law enforcement agency. Don't they know that the Praetor of Nova Roma has deemed this to be acceptable to put it up. ignor, ignore, toot toot - more steam engine room. Oh look, iceberg ahead, let's wish it away and sail right over it. Maior says we will be fine. She has a law degree and went on a course.
     
    Toot Toot.
     
    .....bang....
     
    Oh dear...
     
    ....glug .. glug ... glug
     
    Now what was Sabinus meant to contribute on wire fraud again?  

    Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 8:21 PM
    Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO

    SALVE!

    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@...> wrote:

    > my pardon,>>>

    No problem.

    > you were former MM project coordinator for 2006-2007. Did
    Gn. Iulius Caesar get in touch with you at all? Before he posted on the Senate list? Did he ask you the questions that concerned him?

    No.

    VALE BENE,
    T. Iulius Sabinus



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    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63395 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: Re: Roman attitudes to the law [was MMP suspension of website - I
    Cato Maiori sal.

    Salve!

    Maior, please explain where in your quotes of Cordus' there is any reference to oaths sworn to the Gods. Ah. There isn't any. Good argument.

    The true Roman way is to obey the law.

    Carry on.

    Vale,

    Cato
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63396 From: Titus Iulius Sabinus Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: Re: MMP Refunds
    SALVE!

    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@...> wrote:

    > The MMP website lists my donations amounting to just under $140USD. I wish that amount to be refunded and given to the Nova Roma land fund.>>>

    For what? To buy another piece of land in desert after Piscinus and I resolved the problem with another?

    Anyway, thank you, because with this occasion you remind me about the land fund. Using the Venator word, this fund is another THING the Senate must pay attention asap. Yes, when I will return, on 22 April, we will discuss that together in the Senate.

    Have a nice weekend.

    VALE,
    T. Iulius Sabinus
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63397 From: Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: Re: MMP Refunds
    Ave Sabinus;

    Thanks for thinking of me, and acknowledging that there are indeed
    elephants in the parlor with us.

    Enjoy your weekend.

    in amicitia - Venator
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63398 From: Titus Iulius Sabinus Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    SALVE!

    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gnaeus Iulius Caesar" <gn_iulius_caesar@...> wrote:

    Maybe I should have asked Sabinus to hypnotize me into believing this was a functional project? He and I may differ on some things over this, maybe all, but I don't think he has fallen into the worship of this sacred cow.>>>

    No. I didn't fallen. My first concern is to find solutions.

    >let us climb aboard the NRS Titantic II and set sail for the promised land of restoration...>>>

    Aaaa...I understand now the Paulinus' idea of refunding. Is about that land, right?

    VALE,
    T. Iulius Sabinus

    PS. To all citizens, Caesar and especially Paulinus: the last part of my message is only a friendly joke. Take it as a joke and my apologies in advance if someone considers it an offense. Sometime I like jokes if are among friends.
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63399 From: Maior Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: Re: Roman attitudes to the law [was MMP suspension of website - I
    Maior Catoni sal;
    because that's contained in the examples. Magistrates swore oaths that they would protect and uphold the laws of the Republic (in leges jurare Livy XXXI, 50)

    But as Cordus points out:
    Well, the first thing to bear in mind is that we must be very wary of our own unexamined assumptions, especially about the consequences of law-breaking or failure to perform legal obligations. A few times in the past I've mentioned one example of this, which is the link between the way something comes about and the status it has afterwards.

    We tend to assume, almost without thinking about it, that, for example, a léx enacted in an illegal way must be automatically invalid, or that a cónsul elected by improper procedures is not really cónsul, but in fact in the Roman republic this was not the case"

    I've acted and try to act in a Roman fashion by studying and learning.
    I suggest you do the same and you will find true richness in authentic Romanitas.
    bene vale in pacem Cereris
    M. Hortensia Maior

    >
    > Salve!
    >
    > Maior, please explain where in your quotes of Cordus' there is any reference to oaths sworn to the Gods. Ah. There isn't any. Good argument.
    >
    > The true Roman way is to obey the law.
    >
    > Carry on.
    >
    > Vale,
    >
    > Cato
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63400 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: Re: Roman attitudes to the law
    Cato omnibus in foro SPD

    Salvete!

    Just so that citizens might have an informed idea about how the Romans felt about oaths, I quote:

    "I. Oaths taken by magistrates and other persons who entered the service of the republic.

    After the establishment of the republic the consuls, and subsequently all the other magistrates, were obliged, within five days after their appointment, to promise on oath that they would protect and observe the laws of the republic (in leges jurare, Liv. XXXI.50; compare Dionys. V.1). Vestal virgins and the flamen dialis were not allowed to swear on any occasion (Liv. l.c.; Festus, s.v. Jurare; Plut. Quaest. Rom. p275), but whether they also entered upon their sacred offices without taking an oath analogous to that of magistrates is unknown. When a flamen dialis was elected to a magistracy, he might either petition for an especial dispensation (ut legibus solveretur), or he might depute some one to take the oath for him. But this could not be done unless the permission was granted by the people. The first Roman consuls seem only to have sworn that they would not restore the kingly government, nor allow any one else to do so (Liv. II.1; Dionys. l.c.), and this may have been the case till all fears of such a restoration having vanished, the oath was changed into a jusjurandum in leges. The consular oath was occasionally taken under the empire (Plin. Paneg. 64).

    During the later period of the republic we also find that magistrates, when the time of their office had expired, addressed the people and swore that during their office they had undertaken nothing against the republic, but had done their utmost to promote its welfare (Cic. ad Fam. V.2 §7, pro Sulla 11, in Pison. 3, pro Dom. 35; Dion Cass. XXXVII p52, XXXVIII p72, LIII p568, ed. Steph.; Liv. XXIX.37). In some cases a tribune of the people might compel the whole senate to promise on oath that they would observe a plebiscitum, and allow it to be carried into effect, as was the case with the lex agraria of Saturninus. The censor Q. Metellus, who refused to swear, was sent into exile (Appian, B. C. I.29; Cic. pro Sext. 47; Plut. Mar. 29). During the time of the empire all magistrates on entering their office were obliged to pledge themselves by an oath that they would observe the acta Caesarum (jurare in acta Caesarum, Suet. Tiber. 67; Tac. Annal. I.72, XIII.26, XVI.22; Dion Cass. XLVII p384, &c.), and the senators had to do the same regularly every year on the first of January (Dion Cass. LVIII. p724; compare Lipsius, Excurs. A. ad Tacit. Annal. XVI.22).

    III. Oaths or various modes of swearing in common life. The practice of swearing or calling upon some god or gods as witnesses to the truth of assertions made in common life or in ordinary conversations, was as common among the Romans as among the Greeks. The various forms used in swearing may be divided into three classes:

    1. Simple invocations of one or more gods, as Hercle or Mehercle, that is, ita me Hercules juvet, amet, or servet (Festus, s.v. Mecastor); Pol, Perpol, or Aedepol, that is, per Pollucem; per Jovem Lapidem or simply per Jovem; per superos; per deos immortales; medius fidius, that is, ita me Dius filius juvet (Fest. s.v.; Varro, de Ling. Lat. IV. p20, Bip.); ita me deus amet, or dii ament. Sometimes also two or a great number of gods were invoked by their names (Plaut. Bacchid. IV.8.51; Terent. Andr. III.2.25). The genii of men were regarded as divine beings, and persons used to swear by their own genius, or by that of a friend, and during the empire by that of an emperor (Horat. Epist. I.7, 94; Suet. Calig. 27). Women as well as men swore by most of the gods; but some of them were peculiar to one of the sexes. Thus women never swore by Hercules, and men never by Castor; Varro, moreover, said that in ancient times women only swore by Castor and Pollux, while in the extant writers we find men frequently swearing by Pollux (Gellius, XI.6). Juno and Venus were mostly invoked by women, but also by lovers and effeminate men in general (Plaut. Amphit. II.2.210; Tibull. IV.13. 15; Juv. II.98; Ovid. Amor. II.7.27, II.8.18)." - William Smith, D.C.L., LL.D., A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities

    Note that the article referring to oaths is under the heading of "Religion", not "Law". Oaths were sworn upon Iuppiter Lapis located in the Temple of Iuppiter on the Capitoline Hill. Iuppiter Lapis was held in the Roman tradition to be an Oath Stone, an aspect of Iuppiter in His role as divine law-maker responsible for order and used principally for the investiture of the oathtaking of office:

    "We have, for instance, the sacred stone (silex) which was preserved in the temple of Iuppiter on the Capitol... Here no doubt the underlying notion is not merely symbolical, but in origin the stone is itself the god, an idea which later religion expressed in the cult-title specially used in this connection, Iuppiter Lapis." - Cyril Bailey, The Religion of Ancient Rome

    And Maior, I would caution that using the dictator Iulius Caesar's violation of Roman law as an excuse to violate our own law - and the law of the United States - is fairly unstable.

    Valete,

    Cato
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63401 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    Salve Sabine.

    The promise of land would appear to be more enticing than a roof, or a prosecution. Strange no? I suppose when the Censor of Nova Roma pulls his funds out of the project, well its nothing to be concerned about.
     
    Toot toot. More steam .....
     
    Vale
    Caesar

    Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 9:30 PM
    Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO

    SALVE!

    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gnaeus Iulius Caesar" <gn_iulius_caesar@...> wrote:

    Maybe I should have asked Sabinus to hypnotize me into believing this was a functional project? He and I may differ on some things over this, maybe all, but I don't think he has fallen into the worship of this sacred cow.>>>

    No. I didn't fallen. My first concern is to find solutions.
     
    >let us climb
    aboard the NRS Titantic II and set sail for the promised land of restoration...>>>

    Aaaa...I understand now the Paulinus' idea of refunding. Is about that land, right?

    VALE,
    T. Iulius Sabinus

    PS. To all citizens, Caesar and especially Paulinus: the last part of my message is only a friendly joke. Take it as a joke and my apologies in advance if someone considers it an offense. Sometime I like jokes if are among friends.



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    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63402 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: Re: Roman attitudes to the law [was MMP suspension of website - I
    Cato Maiori sal.

    Salve!

    So, Maior, you are saying that we can behave illegally because the ancient Romans may have? That will be an interesting defense to hear in a court of law in the United States.

    I suggest that you try to engage in the real world; a world that respects the law. Authentic, rich Romanitas includes a healthy respect for the law. Try it some time - it will be a novel and rewarding experience!

    In the meantime, those of us who actually care about the legal health and responsibilities of the res publica will continue to advocate obedience to the law.

    Vale,

    Cato
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63403 From: Titus Annaeus Regulus Date: 2009-04-17
    Subject: Re: Roman attitudes to the law [was MMP suspension of website - I
    Salve,
     
    Maior, my hat is off to you for your dedication to the Ancient Roman way. Some of us however, would very much to keep NR functioning, even if it means compromising and being a little 'totally unRoman.' While Ancient Rome may have accepted illegal use of laws as valid after the fact, I do not believe the US government will take this into account in the least. The United States (where we are registered as a non-profit corporation, for better or worse) has no reason to defer to Ancient Roman law, and every reason to follow its own, which is what will happen.
     
    This is I believe what several comments have referred to in their somewhat derogatory posts regarding your thoughts. While you are seemingly primarily concerned with following Ancient Roman practice to the letter, the possibility of a headsman's axe in the form of a lawsuit hovers above our collective necks. Cato's and Caesar's point (I think) are that we have our own laws, and the laws of the United States to follow and these must come first, and I tend to agree.
     
    I think they are primarily frustrated that you are quoting Roman history while the DoJ is apparently receiving complaints that could lead to a lawsuit in the here and now that no amount of Ancient Roman-ness will counter. I wonder, what would you recommend we do in the event of such a lawsuit? Tell the American government that in NR illegal legislation is upheld when the illegality of it is not known at the time it is passed? I can imagine this would serve only to strengthen the case of the government and perhaps garner a few chuckles at how kooky we are, thinking we can rewrite the law code to suit us. I know this is not your idea, so what are you suggesting?
     
    Vale,
    T. Annæus Regulus
     
    P.S. To close, and completely unrelatedly, I would like to note that there can be many interpretations of what is Roman and unRoman, and it is not for any of us to tell others what it is. Just as an example, although you consider being Roman seemingly as the equivalent to living within the Republic 2,000-odd years ago, or as close as realistically possible, others may not. Others may view being Roman as being the most open and progressive society of its time (as Ancient Rome was, it could be argued), which would then mean that your viewpoint would be decidedly unRoman and backwards. Is that true? I certainly could not say. There are many ways to look at what Rome was and what it meant, and to consider one interpretation to be the definition is quite flawed in my view. In that light, I would like to throw the adjective unRoman back into the closet of completely unsupportable claims. Just because you cite two examples of something happening does not make it Roman. I'm sure others can find at least two occasions when laws were followed (else they would make poor laws indeed). Learning Latin is not necessarily a priority (or even a goal) of every citizen. It has been a pet peeve of mine for some time and I just had to comment (I believe it was implied towards Caesar and explicitly said below to Cato within the past day or so, it was too much lol). Measuring Roman-ness seems about as productive and quantitative as trying to predict the winner of a cage-match between Zeus, the Christian God, and Superman. Surely there are better ways to argue a point? =)

    From: Maior
    Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 11:53 PM
    Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Roman attitudes to the law [was MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO]

    Maior Catoni Quiritibus spd;
    Cato, your opinon: below is totally unRoman..

    CATO: "Obedience to the law is a sacred responsibility; how can you spit on the Gods and pray to Them with the same mouth?"

    I wrote to my friend A. Apollonius Cordus who studied Classics and is a Barrister (undergoing pupillage) about Roman attitudes to the law and his reply was:

    "we tend to assume ....a léx enacted in an illegal way must be automatically invalid, or that a cónsul elected by improper procedures is not really cónsul, but in fact in the Roman republic this was not the case"

    And here are his examples:

    "Similarly, just about all of C. Caesar's consular legislation of 59 in defiance of both tribunician veto and consular obnuntiátió, but the validity of his légés was unchallenged. The cónsulés of 162, P. Scipió Násica and C. Figulus, were elected under faulty auspices, but when this was discovered they were still regarded as being the legitimate cónsulés until they voluntarily abdicated (Valerius Maximus, 1.1.3; Plutarch, 'Marcellus', 5.1-3)."

    So Caesar's illegal legislation was upheld, and there were elections under faulty auspices.

    Your statement below is plain wrong and has nothing to do with Roman attitudes to the law, the gods or or Roman history.

    And it is the Cerialia, I honor Dea Ceres, Concordia and the true Roman way.
    bene vale in pacem Cereris
    Marca Hortensia Maior

    "Obedience to the law is a sacred responsibility; how can you spit on the Gods and pray to Them with the same mouth?"

    >
    >
    Valete,
    >
    > Cato
    >

    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63404 From: Maior Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: Roman attitudes to the law [was MMP suspension of website - I
    Salve Annae Regule:
    thank you for your comment. I'm quite aware too of Maine Law and Federal Law. Neither Cato nor Gn. Iulius Caesar have degrees in Finance nor Law, so their suppositions are just that.

    Equestria Laeca is our CFO and has found no evidence of impropriety. So who am I to regard Equestria Laeca with degrees in finance, working as a financial analyst or Cato or Caesar. What are their day jobs?

    As for these rumors, they are just that. If I were you,unless there is hard evidence I would ignore them. Nova Roma Inc, hasn't received one complaint.
    Marca Hortensia Maior




    >
    > Salve,
    >
    > Maior, my hat is off to you for your dedication to the Ancient Roman way. Some of us however, would very much to keep NR functioning, even if it means compromising and being a little 'totally unRoman.' While Ancient Rome may have accepted illegal use of laws as valid after the fact, I do not believe the US government will take this into account in the least. The United States (where we are registered as a non-profit corporation, for better or worse) has no reason to defer to Ancient Roman law, and every reason to follow its own, which is what will happen.
    >
    > This is I believe what several comments have referred to in their somewhat derogatory posts regarding your thoughts. While you are seemingly primarily concerned with following Ancient Roman practice to the letter, the possibility of a headsman's axe in the form of a lawsuit hovers above our collective necks. Cato's and Caesar's point (I think) are that we have our own laws, and the laws of the United States to follow and these must come first, and I tend to agree.
    >
    > I think they are primarily frustrated that you are quoting Roman history while the DoJ is apparently receiving complaints that could lead to a lawsuit in the here and now that no amount of Ancient Roman-ness will counter. I wonder, what would you recommend we do in the event of such a lawsuit? Tell the American government that in NR illegal legislation is upheld when the illegality of it is not known at the time it is passed? I can imagine this would serve only to strengthen the case of the government and perhaps garner a few chuckles at how kooky we are, thinking we can rewrite the law code to suit us. I know this is not your idea, so what are you suggesting?
    >
    > Vale,
    > T. Annæus Regulus
    >
    > P.S. To close, and completely unrelatedly, I would like to note that there can be many interpretations of what is Roman and unRoman, and it is not for any of us to tell others what it is. Just as an example, although you consider being Roman seemingly as the equivalent to living within the Republic 2,000-odd years ago, or as close as realistically possible, others may not. Others may view being Roman as being the most open and progressive society of its time (as Ancient Rome was, it could be argued), which would then mean that your viewpoint would be decidedly unRoman and backwards. Is that true? I certainly could not say. There are many ways to look at what Rome was and what it meant, and to consider one interpretation to be the definition is quite flawed in my view. In that light, I would like to throw the adjective unRoman back into the closet of completely unsupportable claims. Just because you cite two examples of something happening does not make it Roman. I'm sure others can find at least two occasions when laws were followed (else they would make poor laws indeed). Learning Latin is not necessarily a priority (or even a goal) of every citizen. It has been a pet peeve of mine for some time and I just had to comment (I believe it was implied towards Caesar and explicitly said below to Cato within the past day or so, it was too much lol). Measuring Roman-ness seems about as productive and quantitative as trying to predict the winner of a cage-match between Zeus, the Christian God, and Superman. Surely there are better ways to argue a point? =)
    >
    >
    > From: Maior
    > Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 11:53 PM
    > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Roman attitudes to the law [was MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO]
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Maior Catoni Quiritibus spd;
    > Cato, your opinon: below is totally unRoman..
    >
    > CATO: "Obedience to the law is a sacred responsibility; how can you spit on the Gods and pray to Them with the same mouth?"
    >
    > I wrote to my friend A. Apollonius Cordus who studied Classics and is a Barrister (undergoing pupillage) about Roman attitudes to the law and his reply was:
    >
    > "we tend to assume ....a léx enacted in an illegal way must be automatically invalid, or that a cónsul elected by improper procedures is not really cónsul, but in fact in the Roman republic this was not the case"
    >
    > And here are his examples:
    >
    > "Similarly, just about all of C. Caesar's consular legislation of 59 in defiance of both tribunician veto and consular obnuntiátió, but the validity of his légés was unchallenged. The cónsulés of 162, P. Scipió Násica and C. Figulus, were elected under faulty auspices, but when this was discovered they were still regarded as being the legitimate cónsulés until they voluntarily abdicated (Valerius Maximus, 1.1.3; Plutarch, 'Marcellus', 5.1-3)."
    >
    > So Caesar's illegal legislation was upheld, and there were elections under faulty auspices.
    >
    > Your statement below is plain wrong and has nothing to do with Roman attitudes to the law, the gods or or Roman history.
    >
    > And it is the Cerialia, I honor Dea Ceres, Concordia and the true Roman way.
    > bene vale in pacem Cereris
    > Marca Hortensia Maior
    >
    > "Obedience to the law is a sacred responsibility; how can you spit on the Gods and pray to Them with the same mouth?"
    > >
    > > Valete,
    > >
    > > Cato
    > >
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63405 From: Vedius Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: Roman attitudes to the law [was MMP suspension of website - I
    Maior wrote:
    > Neither Cato nor Gn. Iulius Caesar have degrees in Finance nor Law

    Forgive my ignorance, but do you?
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63406 From: Titus Iulius Sabinus Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    SALVE CAESAR!

    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gnaeus Iulius Caesar" <gn_iulius_caesar@...> wrote:

    > The promise of land would appear to be more enticing than a roof, or a prosecution. >>>

    Sure. There are precedents: Abraham, Isaac, Jacob. You have some revelations in the last time?

    Strange no? I suppose when the Censor of Nova Roma pulls his funds out of the project, well its nothing to be concerned about.>>>

    Sorry, this is mass manipulation. It won't work. Try with someone else. Titles make no difference among donors.

    VALE,
    Sabinus
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63407 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: Roman attitudes to the law [was MMP suspension of website - I
    Cato Maiori sal.

    Salve!

    How do you know I have no degrees in either?

    Just because I may not have taken the bar exam does *not* mean I do not have a degree in Law, and even though I am not employed as an accountant that does not mean I do not have a degree in Finance.

    And please explain exactly what sort of degree is required to understand that a corporation must obey its own laws and the country in which it is incorporated? Just curious.

    Vale,

    Cato


    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Vedius <vedius@...> wrote:
    >
    > Maior wrote:
    > > Neither Cato nor Gn. Iulius Caesar have degrees in Finance nor Law
    >
    > Forgive my ignorance, but do you?
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63408 From: Maior Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: Roman attitudes to the law
    Maior Catoni Quiritibusque spd;

    please read what Cordus has written
    "We tend to assume, almost without thinking about it, that, for example, a léx enacted in an illegal way must be automatically invalid, or that a cónsul elected by improper procedures is not really cónsul, but in fact in the Roman republic this was not the case. "

    and here is another example

    "In 90 BC Q. Varius Hibrida enacted a léx dé majestáte in defiance of the vetoes of several other tribúní plébis (Appian, 'Civil Wars', 1.37; Valerius Maximus, 8.6.4), but the léx was not treated by anyone as invalid, and the court it created was used by both allies and enemies of Varius several times in the following years; "

    So it's quite interesting and thought-provoking about how the ancient Romans regarded the law. I suggest you read through Cordus' law course and learn a little before you post on Roman law.

    valete
    Marca Hortensia Maior.




    >
    > Cato
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63409 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: Roman attitudes to the law
    Cato Maiori omnibusque in foro SPD

    Salve et salvete.

    Maior, do you not understand that over here in the real world the legal system of the United States of America

    does.

    not.

    care.

    what the ancient Romans may or may not have done in 90 BC?

    Quirites, we have a senator - a director of this corporation - who, in the public Forum of the res publica is, in writing, stating that we should feel free to act in violation of the law because on occasion the ancient Romans did - in fact, encouraging this as a way to experience "authentic", "rich" Roman-ness.

    I beg someone in authority to explain to her that writing this in the legal record of the corporation is incredibly stupid and legally indescribably dangerous.

    Valete,

    Cato
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63410 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    Salve Sabine.
     
    No not to the recipients - but just maybe to potential donors that that event may be cause for momentary reflection before donating.
     
    Mass manipulation? Well once it vomited out onto the Main List and the Consul made a guest appearance declaiming I was wrong but failing to go through the offence of wire fraud line by line, as prosecutors and police officers and federal agents do et al, and the rest of the crew of NRS Titanic II also arrived to question my audacity at refusing to commit a criminal offence under US law, well I guess that eventually I too would stroll along to our forum and deal with this dribbling nonsense.
     
    If anyone tried mass manipulation it was initially the Senior Consul who in a blatant attempt to whip up some fervor of outrage against my position, injected his does of disconnect from the reality of law. I suppose I was meant to sit in the Senate House waiting for the great and the good to sally back in from the forum. Sorry to disappoint you.
     
    If you and yours wanted this matter out of the private eye, you should have constrained the zeal of the praetor from issuing directives and splattering them over the Main List, along with my post attached. It is no good bleating to me about the discussion in the forum when that was what initiated it and was compounded by others keen on highlighting my heinous position. At no point of course before this exercise in futility did anyone ask me for the passwords. I certainly made it clear I wasn't putting the site back up because then I would be committing a real crime. Not the sort of crimes from last year, the made up, distorted and imaginary ones, but real offences.
     
    Toot toot - full steam ahead.
     
    Vale
    Caesar

    Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 10:13 PM
    Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO

    SALVE CAESAR!

    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gnaeus Iulius Caesar" <gn_iulius_caesar@...> wrote:
     
    > The promise
    of land would appear to be more enticing than a roof, or a prosecution.
    >>>

    Sure. There are precedents: Abraham, Isaac, Jacob. You have some revelations in the last time?

    Strange no? I suppose when the Censor of Nova Roma pulls his funds out of the project, well its nothing to be concerned about.>>>

    Sorry, this is mass manipulation. It won't work. Try with someone else. Titles make no difference among donors.

    VALE,
    Sabinus




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    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63411 From: c.aqvillivs_rota Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: TO ALL CITIZENS IN THE US

    Salvete omnes,

    Next week the first Roman Museum Bistro opens in America Austorientalis! It presents Ancient Roman history, NR and offers also authentic Roman High Cuisine prepared by an expert who cooks this way since over 15 years.

    Planned is a ceremony of the Religio Romana also representing NR and the Military.

    Maior has offerd help but does not respond to e-mail. 
    After some postings here nothing moves. What'up fellow Romans?
    So far there is only one loyal citizen who s interested in such an event.

    Does NR have serious priests and maybe Reenactors who would like to participate.

    PLEASE STEP FORWARD AN LET US BLOW SOME REAL LIFE INTO OUR REPUBLIC...
        HERE IN AMERICA.....OR ARE ONLY EUROPEANS CAPABLE TO DO SO? (YOU ARE DOING A GREAT JOB OVER THERE)

    Press coverage for NR is organized. Print, Radio, depending on your response TV possible.

    When I receive responses, a comfortable date and time for all, as well reasonable over night stays can be worked out!

    Please respond to C.Aqvillivs_Rota@...

    There is currently a huge interest of a REAL TOWN in SC to wellcome
    NR.

    Please pass this request on to others who are not on the mainlist since  I have problems to do so!

    COME ON CITIZENS SHOW THAT YOU ARE REAL !!!

    Valete

    A.R. Magister Artium

     

    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63412 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    Ave,

    Livia are you suggesting that Caesar should act against his conscience? And to commit a possible crime while at it?

    Vale,

    Sulla



    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "livia_plauta" <livia.plauta@...> wrote:
    >
    > Salve Paulla Corva,
    >
    > >
    > > If it is impossible to rebuild the Magna Mater temple on the original site, could it be rebuilt elsewhere? If the goals of the project have 'diverged' from the original goal, in what way were they changed, and is that goal attainable?
    >
    >
    > No, the temple cannot be rebuilt, either on site or elsewhere, because the funds donated were not donated for the purpose of rebuilding it, and their destination cannot be changed.
    >
    > >
    > > The solution to this issue might be as simple as changing the text of the website and informing the current donors of a need to change the goal.
    >
    > The goal was not changed. Rebuilding was never mentioned, and the "valorization" of the site which is mentioned is a sufficiently wide concept as to allow for multiple sub-goals.
    >
    > >It might also be as simple as disabling the donation tool and restoring the rest of the site until this matter can be adequately resolved.
    > >
    > That would be the rational solution, if indeed there were doubts about the legitimity of the projects, but it's not the one that was chosen by our current aedilis curulis, because it would have meant starting a discussion, instead of creating new conflicts by issuing an ultimatum.
    >
    > Optime vale,
    > Livia
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63413 From: Maior Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: BECAUSE THE ARGUMENTS OF Cn.IULIUS CAESAR ARE WRONG [1 Attachmen
    Salve:
    I worked on Perusianus' cohors for Magna Mater I think back in 2005,I was the one who wrote the section on religion. He stated quite clearly then there were historic oaks on the temple that could not be cut down.
    We all knew it. The point of the project was to help Professor Pensabene to continue his terrific work on the temple, giving us reams of information on MM's cultus and to make connections so that one day we could have a ritual to MM on the very temple steps.
    Marca Hortensia Maior

    >
    > Honored Consul, Salve;
    >
    > When I donated to the Magna Mater Project, as a lay member of the
    > nonarchaeological public-at-large, I looked at the meaning of
    > restoration in the broadly accepted sense of renewing something to its
    > former condition of good repair.
    >
    > I restored a table for my mother, which was a wedding present from her
    > mother. I stripped off the old coating, used 0000 steel wool to
    > smooth out some rough spots and refinished it with a hand-rubbed
    > Danish oil finish, which closely matched the original appearance.
    >
    > After the fact, do not try and tell me that the word was meant in a
    > narrow sense not elucidated.
    >
    > Vale - Venator
    > (an increasingly disgruntled donor)
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63414 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    "In the law, this is a very common tactic; when your case is worthless,
    attack your opponent.

    I find it sad, you've been a civis since 2004, do you know Latin? Can you
    speak it? We've had a ton of great threads: cooking, Roman medicine, but now
    we're back to this nonsense."

    LOL. Anyone else notice the hypocrisy here?

    --------------------------------------------------
    From: "Maior" <rory12001@...>
    Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 8:55 PM
    To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
    Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO

    > -Maior Caesari Quiritibus spd;
    > as I see instead of constructive problem-solving that helps Nova Roma
    > you descend to the ad hominem attack.
    >
    > In the law, this is a very common tactic; when your case is worthless,
    > attack your opponent.
    >
    > I find it sad, you've been a civis since 2004, do you know Latin? Can you
    > speak it? We've had a ton of great threads: cooking, Roman medicine, but
    > now we're back to this nonsense.
    >
    > Gn. Cornelus Lentulus just updated the Latin Phrasebook: do take a look at
    > it and try. http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Latin_phrasebook, he's organizing a
    > festival for the Floralia. He's such a positive person, scholarly, and
    > accomplishes so much in real life; we could all learn from him.
    >
    > now I am going to enjoy the Cerialia.
    > I pray to Dea Concordalia to bring an end to this bickering
    > Marca Hortensia Maior
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >>
    >> Caesar Maori sal.
    >>
    >> As has been explained to you elsewhere, this is about wire fraud.
    >>
    >> As usual your train of logical thought appears to have suffered a
    >> derailment
    >> somewhere just outside the station.
    >>
    >> One of these days just on the basis of sheer odds, you might actually
    >> join
    >> in a discussion and be on the right track, rather than the usual mental
    >> train wreck that occurs.
    >>
    >>
    >> From: Maior
    >> Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 7:24 PM
    >> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    >> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    >>
    >>
    >> -Salvete;
    >> this is the first I've heard of outside complaints? Who is doing it?
    >> Names please. Just rumor creates a very bad atmosphere, it tarnishes
    >> Nova
    >> Roma by rumor and innuendo, a terrible thing.
    >>
    >> As I said a good faith effort, would have meant that Gn. Iulius Caesar
    >> took
    >> his concerns to Equestria Laeca our CFO, and Sabinus the MM project
    >> coordinator and spoke to both Consuls, Nova Roma Incs, managing
    >> directors,
    >> in private to get his questions answered.
    >>
    >> This didn't happen. Instead the website was publically taken down, and a
    >> hubbub raised in the Senate and now on the Main List.
    >>
    >> As a director Caesar has a fidciary duty to act in the best interests of
    >> our
    >> corporation, Was this the best and most efficient manner?
    >>
    >> And the above comes from Equestria Laeca, our CFO. She found our
    >> financial
    >> records entirely in order.
    >>
    >> optime valete
    >> M. Hortensia Maior
    >> /
    >>
    >
    >
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63415 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: BECAUSE THE ARGUMENTS OF Cn.IULIUS CAESAR ARE WRONG [1 Attachmen
    Cn. Iulius Caesar SPD.

    So - the purpose was not restoration but:

    "The point of the project was to help Professor Pensabene to continue his terrific work on the temple, giving us reams of information on MM's cultus and to make connections so that one day we could have a ritual to MM on the very temple steps"

    So - no restoration, just some "terrific work on the temple". Now, let me see, the website said restoration, but now apparently back in 2005 knowing all along the trees that impede restoration, even without the refusal of the Italian authorities to restore, would prevent restoration, we wrote restoration on the website.

    So, there we have it. I am administering a project that was about restoration, then long restoration, then about buying a park bench, possibly about a roof and now the purpose was in fact all along - a religious ceremony.

    Again, does any one really seriously, anyone who isn't on board NRS Titanic II (aka the MMP adoration society) wonder why I took the site down?

    Oh, I am sure someone now will pop up to explain this. I just can't wait.

    Optime valete.


    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@...> wrote:
    >
    > Salve:
    > I worked on Perusianus' cohors for Magna Mater I think back in 2005,I was the one who wrote the section on religion. He stated quite clearly then there were historic oaks on the temple that could not be cut down.
    > We all knew it. The point of the project was to help Professor Pensabene to continue his terrific work on the temple, giving us reams of information on MM's cultus and to make connections so that one day we could have a ritual to MM on the very temple steps.
    > Marca Hortensia Maior
    >
    > >
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63416 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: Roman attitudes to the law [was MMP suspension of website - I
    Non sequitur.

    --------------------------------------------------
    From: "Maior" <rory12001@...>
    Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 9:23 PM
    To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
    Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Roman attitudes to the law [was MMP suspension of
    website - INTERCESSIO]

    > Maior Catoni Quiritibus spd;
    > Cato, your opinon: below is totally unRoman..
    >
    > CATO: "Obedience to the law is a sacred responsibility; how can you spit
    > on the Gods and pray to Them with the same mouth?"
    >
    > I wrote to my friend A. Apollonius Cordus who studied Classics and is a
    > Barrister (undergoing pupillage) about Roman attitudes to the law and his
    > reply was:
    >
    > "we tend to assume ....a léx enacted in an illegal way must be
    > automatically invalid, or that a cónsul elected by improper procedures is
    > not really cónsul, but in fact in the Roman republic this was not the
    > case"
    >
    > And here are his examples:
    >
    > "Similarly, just about all of C. Caesar's consular legislation of 59 in
    > defiance of both tribunician veto and consular obnuntiátió, but the
    > validity of his légés was unchallenged. The cónsulés of 162, P. Scipió
    > Násica and C. Figulus, were elected under faulty auspices, but when this
    > was discovered they were still regarded as being the legitimate cónsulés
    > until they voluntarily abdicated (Valerius Maximus, 1.1.3; Plutarch,
    > 'Marcellus', 5.1-3)."
    >
    > So Caesar's illegal legislation was upheld, and there were elections under
    > faulty auspices.
    >
    > Your statement below is plain wrong and has nothing to do with Roman
    > attitudes to the law, the gods or or Roman history.
    >
    > And it is the Cerialia, I honor Dea Ceres, Concordia and the true Roman
    > way.
    > bene vale in pacem Cereris
    > Marca Hortensia Maior
    >
    > "Obedience to the law is a sacred responsibility; how can you spit on the
    > Gods and pray to Them with the same mouth?"
    >>
    >> Valete,
    >>
    >> Cato
    >>
    >
    >
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63417 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    Salve, Consularis Sabine. Jokes are good. We enjoy jokes. You could make a
    joke about patricians or Back Alley or my funny sounding name Poplicola (the
    only one who didn't switch over to Publicola!) and we all should take it in
    good fun.

    Bene uale!

    --------------------------------------------------
    From: "Titus Iulius Sabinus" <iulius_sabinus@...>
    Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 10:30 PM
    To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
    Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO

    > SALVE!
    >
    > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gnaeus Iulius Caesar"
    > <gn_iulius_caesar@...> wrote:
    >
    > Maybe I should have asked Sabinus to hypnotize me into believing this was
    > a functional project? He and I may differ on some things over this, maybe
    > all, but I don't think he has fallen into the worship of this sacred
    > cow.>>>
    >
    > No. I didn't fallen. My first concern is to find solutions.
    >
    >>let us climb aboard the NRS Titantic II and set sail for the promised land
    >>of restoration...>>>
    >
    > Aaaa...I understand now the Paulinus' idea of refunding. Is about that
    > land, right?
    >
    > VALE,
    > T. Iulius Sabinus
    >
    > PS. To all citizens, Caesar and especially Paulinus: the last part of my
    > message is only a friendly joke. Take it as a joke and my apologies in
    > advance if someone considers it an offense. Sometime I like jokes if are
    > among friends.
    >
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63418 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    Once again, I have asked for Maior to "produce" this "alleged" report. It has been about 24 hours - and no response.

    Vale,

    Sulla


    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "livia_plauta" <livia.plauta@...> wrote:
    >
    > Salve Flavi Aquila,
    > you should not boast either of having been responsible for the team, because you are in daily contact with the former aediles, and you could have got hold of the relevant information any time, but you didn't bother to do so.
    >
    > Vale,
    > Livia
    >
    > >
    > > Salvete Quirites,
    > >
    > > I,� Titus Flavius Aquila, responsible Quaestor for the MMP group within the cohors of the Aedilis Curulis�Caesar, support the statement of
    > > Lucius Cornelius Cicero.
    > >
    > > Optime valete
    > > Titus Flavius Aquila
    > > Quaestor
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > ________________________________
    > > Von: Lucius Cornelius Cicero <Cicero@>
    > > An: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    > > Gesendet: Freitag, den 17. April 2009, 15:07:52 Uhr
    > > Betreff: [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Salve Maior
    > >
    > > > So if you genuinely want to know ask those involved. I've provided >the information. I have no interest in perpetuating political feuds. >I have recipes to make, research to do, Latin to study. Real life >things.
    > >
    > > You're being unnecessarily insulting towards Caesar. Nowhere has there been the slightest hint that his decision had anything to do with any political feuds. As a member of a group of scribae of the cohors aedelicia involved in helping Aedile Caesar with an assessment of the MMP's website and its legal implications, I can assure you that not once did politics play any role nor did they come up in the discussions the cohors held. What did become clear to everyone was that the website could open NR up to criminal or civil legal action due to the language used to solicit money and the actualy situation with regards to the rebuilding of the temple.
    > >
    > > Aedile Caesar thus took the only step he could in suggesting that the website be suspended until these issues could be rectified. This is a decision based on sound judgment and only in the interests of NR and all its citizens, and also in the interests of the MMP.
    > >
    > > I am amazed that some would try and turn this into a political issue when it is nothing of the sort.
    > >
    > > Vale,
    > >
    > > L Cornelius Cicero
    > >
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63419 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: BECAUSE THE ARGUMENTS OF Cn.IULIUS CAESAR ARE WRONG
    Salve!

    After carefully reviewing your post I see a couple problems, which perhaps resulted from an accidental collocation of statements and pasting that gave the wrong impression. I give you the benefit of the doubt!

    The first of the "principal guidelines" that you mention (http://www.international.icomos.org/charters/venice_e.htm) has some very clear statements about what restoration is. I think articles 12 and 13 reveal the context for the meaning of "restoration" which is to actually engage in a measured, careful and archaeologically sound rebuilding of the site.

    Then you say, "and specifically for the MMP in Italy by the rules issued by the Ministero per i Beni e le Attivitá Culturali." which you follow with an extensive quote, but this quote is completely unrelated. It is a copy and paste from "http://www.marc.ucsb.edu/elpilar/brass/arch/conserv/c_guidelines.shtml" which is about the restoration of El Pilar, a site in central America.

    Finally, I see a more general problem that may have contributed to some confusion among people about what the project was really about. It is true that in archaeological contexts, restoration and conservation are closely linked, which simply recognizes that saving archaeological sites of necessity requires a combination of protecting what has survived and (perhaps) prudent rebuilding. It rarely results in *complete* rebuilding.

    That being said, Nova Roma is after "reconstruction". People either within NR or those looking in from the outside might well be misled into thinking that since NR is about "reconstruction" that it means that any NR support for a "restoration" effort would primarily entail rebuilding of a site. This issue was never clarified on the website and I think it should have been.

    Vale,

    Gualterus Graecus

    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "M.CVR.COMPLVTENSIS" <complutensis@...> wrote:
    >
    > Salvete
    >
    > The Aedilis Curulis Iulius Caesar has based the suspension of the MMP
    > website in the word "restoration" arguing that restoration means only
    > rebuild or reconstructions (make it as new).
    >
    > For those of us who do not know how works the archaelogical preservation
    > and conservation:
    >
    > There are some clear and specific standards relating to the
    > preservation, conservation, restoration and value of archaeological
    > remains. These rules are followed by all countries.
    >
    > The principal guidelines are documented by the UNESCO and various
    > international conventions:
    >
    > /-Venice Charter, UNESCO, Venice may 1964.
    > (http://www.international.icomos.org/charters/venice_e.htm)/
    > /-Australia Charter (Burra Chater) ICOMOS, Australia, 1981./
    > /-Rules of Quito, Ecuador, nov-dec, 1967./
    > /-UNESCO, Nirobi, 1976./
    > /-UNESCO, Antigua Guatemala Sept, 1977./
    > /-El Salvador, Jun, 1976./
    > /-La Valette, 1992./
    > /-ICOMOS, New Zealand, Oct,1992.
    > /
    >
    > and specifically for the MMP in Italy by the rules issued by the
    > Ministero per i Beni e le Attivitá Culturali.
    >
    > According these standards:
    >
    > The objective of conservation and restoration is to safeguard.
    > Restoration is only one step in safeguarding. This implies *permanent
    > care*. To conserve does not end with the restoration of the monument; it
    > also attempts to go much farther trying to guarantee its permanence for
    > future generations. Premises:
    > 1.The principal objective of conservation is to perpetuate the historic
    > testimony without the denaturalization of its cultural meaning.
    > 2.Tourism can be a useful resource that we should use as a generator of
    > currency and well being. But it is not the most important object.
    > 3.Visitors represent a factor of deterioration. This is why we should
    > work in the prevention and protection of this danger.
    > 4.Restoration is only one method of safeguarding as mentioned in article
    > 9 to help "keep an exceptional character".
    > 5.To restore is not always the correct thing to do. If the monument is
    > well preserved, our mission will be use the appropriate methods to
    > maintain and guarantee its permanence.
    >
    > *To restore
    > *It literally means to recover or to repair. For the architectural
    > pieces we cannot use this meaning literally. We need to analyze the
    > reality of each archaeological monument. Now it is opportune to mention
    > Cesar Brandi, when he said "To restore means to intervene with any
    > object with the idea of giving it back its _efficiency_ whatever product
    > of human activity "(Gonzalez,1977:3)
    > This is seen as a correct definition, but it also has some limitations.
    > Here we have to consider some primordial aspects:
    > 1) For the efficiency of any object or product of the human activity,
    > it has to be given back it's function, for which it was made.
    > 2) The restoration, as mentioned by Brandi, is a process of intervention
    > that will make efficient any product of human creation. It is
    > indispensable that the object be restored to reclaim its efficiency.
    > 3) In our case, archaeological sites are usually in danger of
    > destruction. Consequently they are unique and irreparable sites .
    >
    > The Colosseum of Roma was restored but not rebuilt. The Aquaeductus of
    > Segovia was restored but not rebuilt. The Parthenon in Athens was
    > restored but not rebuilt. Roma, Ostia, Segobriga, Lancia, Emporiae,
    > Ocilis, Aegypt............do you have visited these cities or countries?
    >
    > Nobody in their right mind can claim that restoration means returning to
    > their original state.
    >
    > With the archaeological restoration the monuments and the remains are
    > well preserved.
    >
    > I am very sorry that our culture is left in the query to the meaning of
    > a word in the dictionary, that means that we need to enhance our
    > culture, especially in the case of the preservation of our Roman heritage.
    >
    > Conclusion: the announce of the desire of (archaelogical) restoration of
    > an archaeological site is not a crime and cannot be it, crimes are the
    > alteration and/or destruction of archaeological remains.
    >
    > The Magna Mater Project is a project to preservation, conservation,
    > restoration and start value of archaeological remains of the ancient
    > Temple of Magna Mater.
    >
    > The Magna Mater Project follows the line of the prof. Pensabene's
    > report to UNESCO, also presented on the MMP web site in pdf format.
    > (Because the site is closed the pdf is attached to this message)
    >
    > Valete
    >
    > M. Cur. Complutensis
    > Consul
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63420 From: D. Boyle Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    Equestria Iunia Laeca Curatrix Aerarii Vibiae Rutiliae Enodiariae sal.

    Forgive me if I don't know who you are, but you have never contacted
    me. Which is odd because I am the Chief Financial Officer and
    responsible for the filings that you cite in your post. Had you
    actually emailed me and asked me regarding this issue, I would have
    explained to you that those filings are not necessary at this time or
    else they would have been filed.

    We have not held any fundraisers nor actively solicited donations from
    the public since I have been CFO. We are not required to register
    with the states to receive donations that come primarily from
    members. Perhaps you could try reading the entire law before making
    public statements and holding yourself out as some type of expert on
    these matters.

    Other citizens have emailed me directly with this same question. In
    the future, you should do the same and ask me before jumping to
    conclusions and consequently, sending incorrect information out to the
    main list. I am more than happy to help.

    Vale.



    On Apr 17, 2009, at 12:03 PM, enodia2002 wrote:
    > Salvete!
    >
    > Public charities and non-profits are very different animals than for
    > profit businesses and have very different standards & laws. Having
    > 501(c)(3) status is the beginning, but in order to solicit funds
    > through donations, sales & grants, there are other entities that
    > must be satisfied. For example, most of the US states require that a
    > charity file with them in order to solicit funds, even over the
    > internet. Amazon sales are the same. To date, NR has not filed with
    > ANY state, even Maine, and this puts us out of compliance to a huge
    > degree.
    >
    > There is now a single form that will work in most states, but even
    > so, each state has different filing fees and supporting
    > documentation requirements. These forms should have been filed
    > BEFORE we started asking anyone for money, but the longer we go, the
    > worse the situation get. It is possible, indeed likely, that there
    > will fines for late filing, and we have no idea how much this will
    > go to.
    >
    > While the US has tax treaties with some countries, we don't with
    > all, and this creates another issue. Internet solicitation of funds
    > has some very murky areas, and the smart thing to do would be to
    > hire a professional to help us set things straight.
    >
    > V Rutilia
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63421 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    Salve Laeca!

    > We have not held any fundraisers nor actively solicited donations from
    > the public since I have been CFO. We are not required to register
    > with the states to receive donations that come primarily from
    > members.

    You are right that the vast majority of donations, according to the archived page (http://web.archive.org/web/20080112210040/www.magnamaterproject.org/en/project/investors.htm), come from members (Gaius Iulius Verus and NR Inc), but due to my ignorance I would very much appreciate if you could inform me which law(s) pertain(s) to the % of source of the donations.

    -Gualterus
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63422 From: enodia2002 Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    With respect, the problem lies with donations received from outside the membership, not from members themselves. In order to grow the organization, we need new members and money from other sources. In order to responsibly deal with any such funds, we must register with the states.

    A US Conventus is being planned. Hopefully that will attract new members and help us find donors. An organization that is not growing is dying, and NR is losing rather than gaining members. Unless this is the goal, we need to be able to raise funds. There is a list of upcoming events for Nova Britannia which run throughout the year. Is NR only a spectator at these events? Or are they also trying to raise awareness of NR, attract new members and interest the public in the NR community. Money has been raised in the past, and hopefully will be in the future. We need to be prepared to manage these funds properly.

    Why? The simple answer is “it’s the law.” Typically, states exercise regulatory authority over nonprofits based on one (or both) of two premises: the nonprofit is physically “present” in the state (e.g., has an office, owns real estate, or conducts program activities) or the nonprofit raises funds in the state.

    In either case, a state may require the nonprofit to “register”, that is, to provide identifying information about the nonprofit and its operations. Organizations of any size and any means may find that raising funds from the public -- even when conducted modestly from a single location -- will give rise to regulatory obligations to multiple states.

    Today most states regulate fundraising. They do so through statutes -- usually called “solicitation laws” -- that are primarily concerned with the solicitation of charitable contributions from the general public. The centerpiece of most of the regulatory schemes is comprehensive reporting, by nonprofits and by the outside fundraising firms and consultants they employ.

    Valete,

    V Rutilia



    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "D. Boyle" <deandreaboyle@...> wrote:
    >
    > Equestria Iunia Laeca Curatrix Aerarii Vibiae Rutiliae Enodiariae sal.
    >
    > Forgive me if I don't know who you are, but you have never contacted
    > me. Which is odd because I am the Chief Financial Officer and
    > responsible for the filings that you cite in your post. Had you
    > actually emailed me and asked me regarding this issue, I would have
    > explained to you that those filings are not necessary at this time or
    > else they would have been filed.
    >
    > We have not held any fundraisers nor actively solicited donations from
    > the public since I have been CFO. We are not required to register
    > with the states to receive donations that come primarily from
    > members. Perhaps you could try reading the entire law before making
    > public statements and holding yourself out as some type of expert on
    > these matters.
    >
    > Other citizens have emailed me directly with this same question. In
    > the future, you should do the same and ask me before jumping to
    > conclusions and consequently, sending incorrect information out to the
    > main list. I am more than happy to help.
    >
    > Vale.
    >
    >
    >
    > On Apr 17, 2009, at 12:03 PM, enodia2002 wrote:
    > > Salvete!
    > >
    > > Public charities and non-profits are very different animals than for
    > > profit businesses and have very different standards & laws. Having
    > > 501(c)(3) status is the beginning, but in order to solicit funds
    > > through donations, sales & grants, there are other entities that
    > > must be satisfied. For example, most of the US states require that a
    > > charity file with them in order to solicit funds, even over the
    > > internet. Amazon sales are the same. To date, NR has not filed with
    > > ANY state, even Maine, and this puts us out of compliance to a huge
    > > degree.
    > >
    > > There is now a single form that will work in most states, but even
    > > so, each state has different filing fees and supporting
    > > documentation requirements. These forms should have been filed
    > > BEFORE we started asking anyone for money, but the longer we go, the
    > > worse the situation get. It is possible, indeed likely, that there
    > > will fines for late filing, and we have no idea how much this will
    > > go to.
    > >
    > > While the US has tax treaties with some countries, we don't with
    > > all, and this creates another issue. Internet solicitation of funds
    > > has some very murky areas, and the smart thing to do would be to
    > > hire a professional to help us set things straight.
    > >
    > > V Rutilia
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63423 From: vallenporter Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@...> wrote:
    >
    > -Salvete;
    > this is the first I've heard of outside complaints? Who is doing it?
    > Names please. Just rumor creates a very bad atmosphere, it tarnishes Nova Roma by rumor and innuendo, a terrible thing.
    >
    > As I said a good faith effort, would have meant that Gn. Iulius Caesar took his concerns to Equestria Laeca our CFO, and Sabinus the MM project coordinator and spoke to both Consuls, Nova Roma Incs, managing directors, in private to get his questions answered.
    >
    > This didn't happen. Instead the website was publically taken down, and a hubbub raised in the Senate and now on the Main List.
    >
    > As a director Caesar has a fidciary duty to act in the best interests of our corporation, Was this the best and most efficient manner?
    >
    > And the above comes from Equestria Laeca, our CFO. She found our financial records entirely in order.
    >
    > optime valete
    > M. Hortensia Maior
    >
    >
    Salvete

    Maior
    ok
    lets see if we can start by talking about the same things here hmm?

    #1 it is not about our financial records.read what the censor who said he was a CPA . it was the way we got( what we said it would be used for) the funds.not about how well we are dealing with funds in hand
    (yes the CFO is doing a GREAT job with out back acct;etc we now know how much funds NR and where there comeing from much better then before.)


    #2 there is also and running a along side the MMP issue a corporate
    Compliance Issue about our 501(C{3}). and the fact that we need to file with state AG( maine ) with the charities register group.

    #3 then there the meeting laws.etc

    it is much more then the MMP, but the MMP could bring us down.

    MCF
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63424 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    Maior, where is this "alleged" report about the MMP project?

    Can you please reproduce it?

    vale,

    Sulla


    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@...> wrote:
    >
    > Salve Sabine:
    > my pardon, you were former MM project coordinator for 2006-2007. Did Gn. Iulius Caesar get in touch with you at all? Before he posted on the Senate list? Did he ask you the questions that concerned him?
    > optime vale
    > Maior
    >
    > >
    > > SALVE!
    > >
    > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@> wrote:
    > >
    > > > As I said a good faith effort, would have meant that Gn. Iulius Caesar took his concerns to Equestria Laeca our CFO, and Sabinus the MM project coordinator and spoke to both Consuls, Nova Roma Incs, managing directors, in private to get his questions answered.>>>
    > >
    > > Correction: ...Sabinus the former MMP coordinator (I was project cordinator in 2006 and 2007).
    > >
    > > VALE BENE,
    > > T. Iulius Sabinus
    > >
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63425 From: vallenporter Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Restoration is defined as
    the act of restoring to a former or original condition
    MCF
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63426 From: vallenporter Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Restoration is defined as
    Restoration is defined as the act or process of accurately depicting the form,
    features, and character of a property as it appeared at a particular period.
    IE the act of restoring to a former or original condition.

    Therefor the MMP saying it was going to ask for funds for a Restoration. is in
    fact and law a fraud.
    how hard is it to get?

    Marcus Cornelius felix
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63427 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    Maior,

    Where is this alleged report on the MMP? You have not yet produced this alleged report! Please post it here on the list.

    Vale,

    Sulla


    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@...> wrote:
    >
    > -Salvete;
    > this is the first I've heard of outside complaints? Who is doing it?
    > Names please. Just rumor creates a very bad atmosphere, it tarnishes Nova Roma by rumor and innuendo, a terrible thing.
    >
    > As I said a good faith effort, would have meant that Gn. Iulius Caesar took his concerns to Equestria Laeca our CFO, and Sabinus the MM project coordinator and spoke to both Consuls, Nova Roma Incs, managing directors, in private to get his questions answered.
    >
    > This didn't happen. Instead the website was publically taken down, and a hubbub raised in the Senate and now on the Main List.
    >
    > As a director Caesar has a fidciary duty to act in the best interests of our corporation, Was this the best and most efficient manner?
    >
    > And the above comes from Equestria Laeca, our CFO. She found our financial records entirely in order.
    >
    > optime valete
    > M. Hortensia Maior
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63428 From: vallenporter Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: MMP
    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "livia_plauta" <livia.plauta@...> wrote:
    >
    > Salve Cato,
    > Nova Roma DID NOT collect money for building a temple.
    > Nova Roma DID NOT solicit money for the sole purpose of restoring the MM temple either.

    YES you did you guys said so the words in the posts and the website said "restore" that means make whole as was before


    MCF




    > Nova Roma solicited money for a series of goals which include enhancing and valorizing the MM temple site, and the long-term goal of restoration.
    >
    > The MM project website was taken down without warning, so currently nobody can go and check what it said, but the project goals are summed up in the FAQ that can be found here:
    >
    > http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Magna_Mater_project
    >
    > I quote:
    > "What is the purpose of the Magna Mater Project?
    > The ultimate goal is the restoration of the temple, but this is honestly very long term, especially when one takes into account our current financial situation. But even having money, there are several other small, but necessary steps which are already under development to 'restore' the temple, in a wider significance of the meaning. To restore it also means to 'valorize' the sancturary, its historical and archaeological aspects, the significance of the cult of the Magna Mater. Put another way, 'enhancing' would be perhaps a better term for these first steps of the Project. Periodically, a bulletin such as this report is published to keep the citizenry appraised of project developments."
    >
    > This formulation is so vague, that it may easily include the current goals for the MM project (listed on the same page, in the senatus consultum), so that nobody can accuse NR of fraud.
    >
    > Stating that NR can be accused of fraud because of the MM project is a lie, and furthermore a lie which damages the credibility of NR.
    >
    >
    > Vale,
    > Livia
    >
    > >
    > > Cato omnibus in foro SPD
    > >
    > > Salvete.
    > >
    > > I am in the wilderness and have little access to Internet and write this on my iPhone but I have to correct here: the fraud is not on the part of an individual per se it is the act of collecting money for a temple that we knew would never be built. The whole corporation becomes liable if, after knowing the temple could not be restored we continued to collect money for that purpose. That we did do over the Internet opens this up to wire fraud. I have written several messages to the Senate which I have authorized to be copied to this Forum. Why do we insist on following the least responsible course of action possible? It boggles the mind.
    > >
    > > Valete
    > >
    > > Cato
    > >
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63429 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    Maior, where is this alleged report regarding the MMP?

    Would you please reproduce this "alleged" report?

    Vale,

    Sulla


    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@...> wrote:
    >
    > -Maior Caesari Quiritibus spd;
    > as I see instead of constructive problem-solving that helps Nova Roma you descend to the ad hominem attack.
    >
    > In the law, this is a very common tactic; when your case is worthless, attack your opponent.
    >
    > I find it sad, you've been a civis since 2004, do you know Latin? Can you speak it? We've had a ton of great threads: cooking, Roman medicine, but now we're back to this nonsense.
    >
    > Gn. Cornelus Lentulus just updated the Latin Phrasebook: do take a look at it and try. http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Latin_phrasebook, he's organizing a festival for the Floralia. He's such a positive person, scholarly, and accomplishes so much in real life; we could all learn from him.
    >
    > now I am going to enjoy the Cerialia.
    > I pray to Dea Concordalia to bring an end to this bickering
    > Marca Hortensia Maior
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > >
    > > Caesar Maori sal.
    > >
    > > As has been explained to you elsewhere, this is about wire fraud.
    > >
    > > As usual your train of logical thought appears to have suffered a derailment
    > > somewhere just outside the station.
    > >
    > > One of these days just on the basis of sheer odds, you might actually join
    > > in a discussion and be on the right track, rather than the usual mental
    > > train wreck that occurs.
    > >
    > >
    > > From: Maior
    > > Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 7:24 PM
    > > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    > > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    > >
    > >
    > > -Salvete;
    > > this is the first I've heard of outside complaints? Who is doing it?
    > > Names please. Just rumor creates a very bad atmosphere, it tarnishes Nova
    > > Roma by rumor and innuendo, a terrible thing.
    > >
    > > As I said a good faith effort, would have meant that Gn. Iulius Caesar took
    > > his concerns to Equestria Laeca our CFO, and Sabinus the MM project
    > > coordinator and spoke to both Consuls, Nova Roma Incs, managing directors,
    > > in private to get his questions answered.
    > >
    > > This didn't happen. Instead the website was publically taken down, and a
    > > hubbub raised in the Senate and now on the Main List.
    > >
    > > As a director Caesar has a fidciary duty to act in the best interests of our
    > > corporation, Was this the best and most efficient manner?
    > >
    > > And the above comes from Equestria Laeca, our CFO. She found our financial
    > > records entirely in order.
    > >
    > > optime valete
    > > M. Hortensia Maior
    > > /
    > >
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63430 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    You are wrong - I did. Maior has so far failed to bring the "alleged" report.

    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "livia_plauta" <livia.plauta@...> wrote:
    >
    > Salve Cicero,
    > you should not be boasting on the main list of having been part of the team involved with the MM project assessment, when you obviously have not been doing your job properly.
    > I know for sure that nobody asked the people formerly responsible for the project for relevant information.
    >
    > Vale,
    > Livia
    >
    >
    > >
    > > Salve Maior
    > >
    > > > So if you genuinely want to know ask those involved. I've provided >the information. I have no interest in perpetuating political feuds. >I have recipes to make, research to do, Latin to study. Real life >things.
    > >
    > > You're being unnecessarily insulting towards Caesar. Nowhere has there been the slightest hint that his decision had anything to do with any political feuds. As a member of a group of scribae of the cohors aedelicia involved in helping Aedile Caesar with an assessment of the MMP's website and its legal implications, I can assure you that not once did politics play any role nor did they come up in the discussions the cohors held. What did become clear to everyone was that the website could open NR up to criminal or civil legal action due to the language used to solicit money and the actualy situation with regards to the rebuilding of the temple.
    > >
    > > Aedile Caesar thus took the only step he could in suggesting that the website be suspended until these issues could be rectified. This is a decision based on sound judgment and only in the interests of NR and all its citizens, and also in the interests of the MMP.
    > >
    > > I am amazed that some would try and turn this into a political issue when it is nothing of the sort.
    > >
    > > Vale,
    > >
    > > L Cornelius Cicero
    > >
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63431 From: vallenporter Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: MMP
    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "livia_plauta" <livia.plauta@...> wrote:
    >
    > Salve Cato,
    > Nova Roma DID NOT collect money for building a temple.
    > Nova Roma DID NOT solicit money for the sole purpose of restoring the MM temple either..

    The MMP people and the website did in fact the word restore
    Restoration is defined as putting back as it was.


    > Nova Roma solicited money for a series of goals which include enhancing and valorizing the MM temple site, and the long-term goal of restoration.

    with the rules in place that will never happen.
    quit kidding us
    MCF




    >
    > The MM project website was taken down without warning, so currently nobody can go and check what it said, but the project goals are summed up in the FAQ that can be found here:
    >
    > http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Magna_Mater_project
    >
    > I quote:
    > "What is the purpose of the Magna Mater Project?
    > The ultimate goal is the restoration of the temple, but this is honestly very long term, especially when one takes into account our current financial situation. But even having money, there are several other small, but necessary steps which are already under development to 'restore' the temple, in a wider significance of the meaning. To restore it also means to 'valorize' the sancturary, its historical and archaeological aspects, the significance of the cult of the Magna Mater. Put another way, 'enhancing' would be perhaps a better term for these first steps of the Project. Periodically, a bulletin such as this report is published to keep the citizenry appraised of project developments."
    >
    > This formulation is so vague, that it may easily include the current goals for the MM project (listed on the same page, in the senatus consultum), so that nobody can accuse NR of fraud.
    >
    > Stating that NR can be accused of fraud because of the MM project is a lie, and furthermore a lie which damages the credibility of NR.
    >
    >
    > Vale,
    > Livia
    >
    > >
    > > Cato omnibus in foro SPD
    > >
    > > Salvete.
    > >
    > > I am in the wilderness and have little access to Internet and write this on my iPhone but I have to correct here: the fraud is not on the part of an individual per se it is the act of collecting money for a temple that we knew would never be built. The whole corporation becomes liable if, after knowing the temple could not be restored we continued to collect money for that purpose. That we did do over the Internet opens this up to wire fraud. I have written several messages to the Senate which I have authorized to be copied to this Forum. Why do we insist on following the least responsible course of action possible? It boggles the mind.
    > >
    > > Valete
    > >
    > > Cato
    > >
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63432 From: Titus Flavius Aquila Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: AW: [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    Salve Plauta,
     
    I was responsible as of the time I was appointed Quaestor of Aedilis Curulis Caesar. My group - the MMP - was checking all of
    the information available, especially on the current information available on the MMP which makes us liable in the US and thus endangers
    our republic !
     
    Aedilis Curulis Caesar did take out of precaution the right decision ! I fully support it.
     
    By the by, do you want to tell me, that the MMP group , which invested weeks and weeks of their time to investigate into the MMP did not do their job ? This is outrageous !
     
    Vale,
    Titus Flavius Aquila


    Von: livia_plauta <livia.plauta@...>
    An: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    Gesendet: Samstag, den 18. April 2009, 01:56:12 Uhr
    Betreff: [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO

    Salve Flavi Aquila,
    you should not boast either of having been responsible for the team, because you are in daily contact with the former aediles, and you could have got hold of the relevant information any time, but you didn't bother to do so.

    Vale,
    Livia

    >
    > Salvete Quirites,
    >
    > I,  Titus Flavius Aquila, responsible Quaestor for the MMP group within the cohors of the Aedilis Curulis Caesar, support the statement of
    > Lucius Cornelius Cicero.
    >
    > Optime valete
    > Titus Flavius Aquila
    > Quaestor
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > ____________ _________ _________ __
    > Von: Lucius Cornelius Cicero <Cicero@...>
    > An: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
    > Gesendet: Freitag, den 17. April 2009, 15:07:52 Uhr
    > Betreff:
    [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Salve Maior
    >
    > > So if you genuinely want to know ask those involved. I've provided >the information. I have no interest in perpetuating political feuds. >I have recipes to make, research to do, Latin to study. Real life >things.
    >
    > You're being unnecessarily insulting towards Caesar. Nowhere has there been the slightest hint that his decision had anything to do with any political feuds. As a member of a group of scribae of the cohors aedelicia involved in helping Aedile Caesar with an assessment of the MMP's website and its legal implications, I can assure you that not once did politics play any role nor did they come up in the discussions the cohors held. What did become clear to everyone was that the website could open NR up to criminal or civil legal action due to the language used to solicit money and
    the actualy situation with regards to the rebuilding of the temple.
    >
    > Aedile Caesar thus took the only step he could in suggesting that the website be suspended until these issues could be rectified. This is a decision based on sound judgment and only in the interests of NR and all its citizens, and also in the interests of the MMP.
    >
    > I am amazed that some would try and turn this into a political issue when it is nothing of the sort.
    >
    > Vale,
    >
    > L Cornelius Cicero
    >


    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63433 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: Moderation Experiment
    Re: [Nova-Roma] Moderation Experiment

      A. Tullia Scholastica P. Ullerio Stephano Venatori quiritibus bonae voluntatis S.P.D.

      

    Avete;

    In almost 10 years of existence the Cooks' and Brewers' list has never
    been moderated; I can think of, perhaps, 1 or 2 "Spammers" a year,
    which were dealt with, summarily.

    All memberships are, however, approved.

        ATS:  And that is a rather significant difference.  Coq & Coq is restricted, as are many others, whereas the ML is wide open to anyone who wants to join.  There is no restriction on who may join the ML, be it Johnny Romanophile, age 10, or Mr. Multifarious Spam Pusher.  We deal with the latter by intercepting their attempted posts and then banning them.  


     I have been on the Net since
    the mid 1980's, so I look at all profiles for those looking to join. .
    .again, very few "Bots" or "Spammers," on any well-maintained list I
    have been on, where the conversation is open.

    This is what list moderators are for, warding the entry point and
    cleaning up real messes.

        ATS:  A good idea, but the settings on the ML allow initial moderation in lieu of restriction.  The safest way is to set for both initial restriction and initial moderation, but some don’t like that much work.  Too, not everyone has a profile...or at least they don’t on some of my lists, and some who do seem to have included highly questionable information.  QFM looks remarkably well-preserved for his centenarian status, for example.     

    "There might be children here," well, minors shouldn't be here.

        ATS:  Here I disagree strongly.  Teenagers and older pre-teens who are interested in ancient Rome or classical antiquity have every right to be on the ML.  They might learn something, though I am afraid that what they might learn is that adults often do not behave like grown-ups.   That sort of thing might sour the younger members not only on ancient Rome and classical antiquity, but also on adulthood itself, for too many here hit the keyboard without having engaged the most relevant portions of the  brain, allowing emotions instead of logic to rule their behavior.  Some of them, moreover, are so credulous that they even believe everything they read on a wikipedia.  If the adults acted like adults, and restrained themselves properly, we might not need moderation, or at least not after a few posts, but that is not the case.  

        The ML is not a movie theater; it is a mailing list.  Responsible parents would not allow their offspring to attend movies they deemed inappropriate, and would not allow them to join an adult mailing list.  Parents do not expect so-called adult material on open lists; they expect appropriate discussions, and it is parents who (for the most part) should determine what should enter their children’s heads.  Once again, if the ML were totally unmoderated and allowed all manner of language and discussions as do strictly adult lists, it would have to be electronically coded with a marker that would put it in the same class as, say, something from a porn publisher or the like.    Is that what we want?  I don’t think so.  One BA is more than enough.  

        By the way, Yahoo is once again doing its own moderating, sending posts from unmoderated members to the spam dump, where we find (inter alios) the ever-dangerous TGP, a dangerous pontifex, and a dangerous flamen.  ;-)

    Valete – Venator

    Vale, et valete.
      
        

         
       Messages in this topic           <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/63110
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63434 From: livia_plauta Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: Valorization, a Communist concept
    Salve Venator,
    the founders of the MM project could not possibly imagine that adult people, interested in ancient Rome, could take the word "restoration" in connection to an archaological site, as meaning "rebuilding".

    They assumed that the mental level of NR citizens is higher than that of those American tourists who actually believed the scammers selling them the Colosseum or the Trevi fountain.
    Please, don't tell me they were wrong! I really can't believe that the mostly intelligent people we have here could believe they were donating funds for rebuilding the temple.

    I specially can't believe it of you, of all people, because so far I had only seen posts from you that made sense.

    Anyway if some people mistakenly believed they were funding a rebuilding of the temple, all they have to do is ask for their money back. All the money is still there, as you can see from the budgets.

    Vale,
    Livia

    >
    > Avete Omnes;
    >
    > I have presented my views elsewhere, but grow weary of the give and
    > take without resolution.
    >
    > I finally hit upon one of the things about this MMP scheme, which has
    > been really bothering me at a subconscious level, the word "valorize,"
    > which the supporters of this scheme keep parroting.
    >
    > From Wikipeadia, which I use as a starting point and backed up by
    > reading through the appropriate section of my copy of "Das Kapital":
    >
    > The valorization of capital is a concept created by Karl Marx in his
    > critique of political economy. The German original term is
    > "Verwertung" (specifically Kapitalverwertung) but this is difficult to
    > translate, and often wrongly rendered as "realisation of capital",
    > "creation of surplus-value" or "self-expansion of capital" or
    > "increase in value". In modern translations of Marx's economic
    > writings, the term valorisation (as in French) is preferred because it
    > is recognized that it denotes a highly specific economic concept. It
    > refers both to the process whereby a capital value is conferred or
    > bestowed on something, and to the increase in the value of a capital
    > asset.
    >
    > From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913):
    >
    > Valorization \Val`or*i*za"tion\, n. [Pg. valorizac[~a]o.]
    >
    > "Act or process of attempting to give an arbitrary market value or
    > price to a commodity by governmental interference, as by maintaining a
    > purchasing fund, making loans to producers to enable them to hold
    > their products, etc.; -- used chiefly of such action by Brazil."
    >
    > Merriam-Webster Dictionary online (current):
    >
    > valorization
    > One entry found.
    >
    > Main Entry: val·o·rize Listen to the pronunciation of valorize
    > Pronunciation: \ˈva-lÉ™-ËÅ'rÄ«z\
    > Function: transitive verb
    > Inflected Form(s): val·o·rized; val·o·riz·ing
    > Etymology: Portuguese valorizar, from valor value, price, from Medieval Latin
    > Date: circa 1906
    >
    > 1 : to enhance or try to enhance the price, value, or status of by
    > organized and usually governmental action <using subsidies to valorize
    > coffee> 2 : to assign value or merit to : validate
    > — val·o·ri·za·tion Listen to the pronunciation of valorization
    > \ËÅ'va-lÉ™-rÉ™-ˈz�-shÉ™n\ noun
    >
    > So, we are trusting a large portion of our meager Nova Roma funds to
    > something, which might have its value artificially inflated by the
    > possible action of a macronational government, assuming said
    > government actually cares.
    >
    > No, no, no!
    >
    > This is a concept I find as palatable as fiat money, which I am forced
    > to admit I am constrained to accept.
    >
    > I call now, in open Forum, for our Magistrates and Senators to get us
    > out from under this, THING.
    >
    > in obstinatus animus
    >
    > Venator
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63435 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: Moderation Experiment
    In a message dated 4/18/2009 1:57:45 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, fororom@... writes:
    QFM looks remarkably well-preserved for his centenarian status, for example.    
    True.  Clean living and only eating a little meat after sacrifices. 
     
    Q. Fabius Maximus 


    Check all of your email inboxes from anywhere on the web. Try the new Email Toolbar now!
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63436 From: livia_plauta Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: BECAUSE THE ARGUMENTS OF Cn.IULIUS CAESAR ARE WRONG
    Salve Caesar,
    sorry, none of us could have supposed such an incredible level of ignorance and lack of understanding of a text.
    If people had been giving signals that they thought the temple was to be rebuilt, the MM project founders could certainly have put up a notice that this was not the case.

    Vale,
    Livia
    >
    > Cn. Iulius Caesar SPD.
    >
    > So, let me be sure I understand this. Restoration now is defined as shoring up old conservation work and building a protective canopy over the ruins to prevent further degradation due to the elements. Silly me, I thought it meant restoring the temple to its former glory, you know, pillars, tiles, altar etc.
    >
    > So restoration actually means patching up the bits that are left, yet the wiki entry on the Magna Mater Project seems to indicate that restoration will take a very long time. So we have two definitions of restoration. The wiki, taking a very very very long time and the website where the goal is easily achievable as we are just putting a roof over the ruins. Perhaps the roof over the ruins is meant to be gold plated?
    >
    > So when people donated money, as Curule Aedile I now have to know whether they were donating for a roof over the ruins or a full blown temple before I apportion their share of the funds accordingly?
    >
    > Interesting. And people wonder why this project simply shouldn't be put out of its misery?
    >
    > Optime valete.
    >
    >
    > From: livia_plauta
    > Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 6:15 PM
    > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: BECAUSE THE ARGUMENTS OF Cn.IULIUS CAESAR ARE WRONG
    >
    >
    > L. Livia Plauta Cn. Iulio Caesari S.P.D.
    >
    > >
    > > I am sure all our donors went to this amount of reaerch over the meaning of the word restore and fully understood the utter impossibility of restoration.
    > >
    > No, they didn't need to do any research, because the meaning of "restoration" was explained in excruciating detail in the project description:
    >
    > "The preliminary project for the conservation of this important area of the Palatine stems from the necessity to solve the most urgent problems of the rain water drainage and of the protection from the disgregative action of the water itself.
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63437 From: livia_plauta Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    Salvete,
    but why do people outside the senate know about complaints being filed, while senators do not? Who has received this information? And who has withheld it?

    Valete,
    Livia

    -- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "enodia2002" <walkyr@...> wrote:
    >
    > Salvete,
    >
    > The DOJ does not give out names of complainants.
    >
    > V Rutilia
    >
    >
    > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@> wrote:
    > >
    > > -Salvete;
    > > this is the first I've heard of outside complaints? Who is doing it?
    > > Names please. Just rumor creates a very bad atmosphere, it tarnishes Nova Roma by rumor and innuendo, a terrible thing.
    > >
    > > As I said a good faith effort, would have meant that Gn. Iulius Caesar took his concerns to Equestria Laeca our CFO, and Sabinus the MM project coordinator and spoke to both Consuls, Nova Roma Incs, managing directors, in private to get his questions answered.
    > >
    > > This didn't happen. Instead the website was publically taken down, and a hubbub raised in the Senate and now on the Main List.
    > >
    > > As a director Caesar has a fidciary duty to act in the best interests of our corporation, Was this the best and most efficient manner?
    > >
    > > And the above comes from Equestria Laeca, our CFO. She found our financial records entirely in order.
    > >
    > > optime valete
    > > M. Hortensia Maior
    > >
    > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > Salvete,
    > > >
    > > > If in fact there is *outside* grumbling and filed complaints, then I think all of the donors should be contacted immediately that the project is currently being reviewed for legal compliance, and if inconsistencies are found that their donations will be returned. Hopefully this might kick the legs from under any immediate peril and give the project enough time to get the proper paperwork filed. It would at least demonstrate good faith on our part, should this all go to court.
    > > >
    > > > Unfortunately, this will also have a domino effect, because those donors who were not worried will suddenly become worried. So, it would only buy us a little time to get everything in order before the project completely implodes. No matter which way this is spun, NR's reputation will be tarnished. The least NR can do is demonstrate that it is honest in its dealings. Maybe complete and immediate refunds would serve this end best.
    > > >
    > > > -Gualterus
    > > >
    > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "enodia2002" <walkyr@> wrote:
    > > > >
    > > > > Salve, et Salvete!
    > > > >
    > > > > I've long been of the opinion that if the US Internal Revenue Service were to have a heraldic device it would be a quivering human heart clutched in a mailed fist. Sable, on a field azure.
    > > > >
    > > > > Small non-profit organizations get into these kinds of trouble all the time. There's no blame attached, it's just that especially with such an international cast there are some areas which are outside of the group skill set. The bottom line is that as far as corporate compliance and solicitation of funds are concerned, we're doing it wrong and we need to fix it.
    > > > >
    > > > > I am personally weaving a grass crown for Equestria Laeca, as it's only because of her heroic efforts that we are in as good a position as we are. There is, however, a great deal of work to be done. Much of it is paperwork, time-consuming and tedious.
    > > > >
    > > > > Nova Roma does not have a lot of time. Complaints have been made to various Departments of Justice which have come from OUTSIDE the membership. There are several things which could happen, but I strongly encourage the Senate and membership of NR to take this opportunity to respond to the problems in a calm and efficient manner. The IRS could come in and simply shut us down, but they usually prefer more painful methods. They could very easily fine the organization to death. The State of Maine could simply dissolve the corporation and leave us with nothing.
    > > > >
    > > > > If anyone out there is genuinely interested in being of service to Nova Roma, this is your big moment. Your help is needed: no politics, no semantics, no name, no blame.
    > > > >
    > > > > Let's just fix it, and move on.
    > > > >
    > > > > Optime vale,
    > > > >
    > > > > V Rutilia
    > > > > Scriba, Aedilian Cohors
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Iulius Caesar <gn_iulius_caesar@> wrote:
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Cn. Iulius Caesar SPD.
    > > > > >  
    > > > > > And I will ignore the Praetors demands as an incitement to commit a criminal offence, which is itself an offence.
    > > > > >  
    > > > > > The days of corporate bodies deamnding that their employees and officials comply with illegal demands ended with Enron.
    > > > > >  
    > > > > > The Constitution of Nova Roma gives each citizen the right to be bound by the civil rights of his nation state. it is a basic civil right to obey the law. Under Section I.B of the Constittion - the order of legal precedence - the Constitution outweighs any edict/intercessio.
    > > > > >  
    > > > > > Some people just can't read law or understand the basic obligations of living in a macronational society, and clearly our praetor falls into that catergory.
    > > > > >  
    > > > > > Now get it through all of your heads now. No edict, demand, hullabaloo or general outcry will cause me to commit what I believe to be a mcronational offence. I have been in law enforcement for over 21 years. If my gut tells me something is illegal - I listen to it...not the idiotic rablings and squakings of someone on a keyboard in France.
    > > > > >  
    > > > > > Get with the program people. It's called life.
    > > > > >  
    > > > > > Now of course if our consul wants to put he site back up - then he can, but my electronic fingerprints will not be on it.
    > > > > >  
    > > > > > Optime valete.
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > > --- On Fri, 4/17/09, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@ <PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@> wrote:
    > > > > >
    > > > > > From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@ <PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@>
    > > > > > Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    > > > > > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    > > > > > Date: Friday, April 17, 2009, 4:51 PM
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Fl. Galerius Aurelianus s.p.d.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > I wrote to Gn. Iulio that as a high school student and college student, I contributed money to a fund I discovered from the material I received in the mail from the AIA for the purpose of stabilization and restoration of the Parthenon in Athens.  Over 20 years went by before the work actually began and some of the repairs have been made using modern materials when the original stones could not be used.  When one is discussing the restoration of a structure more than 2,200 years old, one doesn't think of restoration in terms of months or years but decades.  There were other reasons for the MMP than the restoration of the temple (not to be confused with templum which is the entire sacred enclosure) including putting NR's name out in the academic community.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Gn. Iulio should have brought the matter to the attention of the BoD before he made any unilateral action about taking the website off-line.  Instead, he overstepped his rights and prerogatives of his office.  I will support the action of the praetor since Gn. Iulio has peformed an action against the Senate and People of Nova Roma.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Valete.
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > > -----Original Message-----
    > > > > > From: aerdensrw <aerdensrw@>
    > > > > > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    > > > > > Sent: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 9:21 am
    > > > > > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > > I will be interested to see what the Senate's response is to this matter. The reasoning that Cn. Jul. Caesar gave seemed detailed and thorough, by someone who appears to understand the law.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > I think the Magna Mater website should REMAIN disabled until someone with a US law degree has provided an equally detailed explanation of why they think the curule aedile's concerns are unwarranted.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > With great respect to M. Hortensia Maior, I need to see reasons. Just telling me that a qualified person looked over the books and saw nothing wrong does not adequately allay my concerns. Cn. Jul. Caesar gave very specific details of the problems he sees.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > I can't remember if any portion of NR taxes is donated to the Magna Mater project, but if it is, whoever disburses that money could face legal difficultires, as well, if Cn. Jul. Caesar's concerns prove valid. I think we need to see facts--even though legalese makes my brain hurt.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > If it is impossible to rebuild the Magna Mater temple on the original site, could it be rebuilt elsewhere? If the goals of the project have 'diverged' from the original goal, in what way were they changed, and is that goal attainable?
    > > > > >
    > > > > > The solution to this issue might be as simple as changing the text of the website and informing the current donors of a need to change the goal. It might also be as simple as disabling the donation tool and restoring the rest of the site until this matter can be adequately resolved.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Paulla Corva
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > > #yiv1765509809 #AOLMsgPart_2_eb4afbf9-1abe-4032-895d-c8097916593a #ygrp-mkp{border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:14px 0px;padding:0px 14px;}#yiv1765509809 #AOLMsgPart_2_eb4afbf9-1abe-4032-895d-c8097916593a #ygrp-mkp hr{border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv1765509809 #AOLMsgPart_2_eb4afbf9-1abe-4032-895d-c8097916593a #ygrp-mkp #hd{color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:bold;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0px;}#yiv1765509809 #AOLMsgPart_2_eb4afbf9-1abe-4032-895d-c8097916593a #ygrp-mkp #ads{margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv1765509809 #AOLMsgPart_2_eb4afbf9-1abe-4032-895d-c8097916593a #ygrp-mkp .ad{padding:0 0;}#yiv1765509809 #AOLMsgPart_2_eb4afbf9-1abe-4032-895d-c8097916593a #ygrp-mkp .ad a{color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
    > > > > >
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    > > > > >
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    > > > > >
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    > > > > >
    > > > > >
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    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Join ChristianMingle.com® FREE! Meet Christian Singles in your area. Start now!
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    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63438 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: BECAUSE THE ARGUMENTS OF Cn.IULIUS CAESAR ARE WRONG
    Salve Livia

    So much as though the reason I don't have a colleague yet, 3.5 months into
    the year, it is the fault of investors for not indicating that they thought
    the temple was going to be rebuilt and not speaking up? I think if you might
    find such concerns have been raised before, but were sloughed off.

    Vale
    Caesar


    From: livia_plauta
    Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 3:40 AM
    To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: BECAUSE THE ARGUMENTS OF Cn.IULIUS CAESAR ARE WRONG


    Salve Caesar,
    sorry, none of us could have supposed such an incredible level of ignorance
    and lack of understanding of a text.
    If people had been giving signals that they thought the temple was to be
    rebuilt, the MM project founders could certainly have put up a notice that
    this was not the case.

    Vale,
    Livia
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63439 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: Valorization, a Communist concept
    In a message dated 4/18/2009 2:32:34 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, livia.plauta@... writes:
    Anyway if some people mistakenly believed they were funding a rebuilding of the temple, all they have to do is ask for their money back. All the money is still there, as you can see from the budgets.
    Fine, even Liva Plauta agrees.  The Censor has all ready done so, asked for his money back. 
    Consul, when are we going to hold the vote?
     
    Q. Fabius Maximus


    Check all of your email inboxes from anywhere on the web. Try the new Email Toolbar now!
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63440 From: livia_plauta Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    Salve Aquila,
    yes, it's definitely outrageous that in the months it took the MMP group to investigate things, they didn't bother to write 5 or 6 emails to the people who had been running the project previously.

    Vale,
    Livia
    >
    > Salve Plauta,
    >
    > I was responsible as of the time I was appointed Quaestor of Aedilis Curulis Caesar. My group - the MMP - was checking all of
    > the information available, especially on the current information available on the MMP which makes us liable in the US and thus endangers
    > our republic !
    >
    > Aedilis Curulis Caesar did take out of precaution the right decision ! I fully support it.
    >
    > By the by, do you want to tell me, that the MMP group , which invested weeks and weeks of their time to investigate into the MMP did not do their job ? This is outrageous !
    >
    > Vale,
    > Titus Flavius Aquila
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > ________________________________
    > Von: livia_plauta <livia.plauta@...>
    > An: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    > Gesendet: Samstag, den 18. April 2009, 01:56:12 Uhr
    > Betreff: [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Salve Flavi Aquila,
    > you should not boast either of having been responsible for the team, because you are in daily contact with the former aediles, and you could have got hold of the relevant information any time, but you didn't bother to do so.
    >
    > Vale,
    > Livia
    >
    > >
    > > Salvete Quirites,
    > >
    > > I,  Titus Flavius Aquila, responsible Quaestor for the MMP group within the cohors of the Aedilis Curulis Caesar, support the statement of
    > > Lucius Cornelius Cicero.
    > >
    > > Optime valete
    > > Titus Flavius Aquila
    > > Quaestor
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > ____________ _________ _________ __
    > > Von: Lucius Cornelius Cicero <Cicero@>
    > > An: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
    > > Gesendet: Freitag, den 17. April 2009, 15:07:52 Uhr
    > > Betreff: [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Salve Maior
    > >
    > > > So if you genuinely want to know ask those involved. I've provided >the information. I have no interest in perpetuating political feuds. >I have recipes to make, research to do, Latin to study. Real life >things.
    > >
    > > You're being unnecessarily insulting towards Caesar. Nowhere has there been the slightest hint that his decision had anything to do with any political feuds. As a member of a group of scribae of the cohors aedelicia involved in helping Aedile Caesar with an assessment of the MMP's website and its legal implications, I can assure you that not once did politics play any role nor did they come up in the discussions the cohors held. What did become clear to everyone was that the website could open NR up to criminal or civil legal action due to the language used to solicit money and the actualy situation with regards to the rebuilding of the temple.
    > >
    > > Aedile Caesar thus took the only step he could in suggesting that the website be suspended until these issues could be rectified. This is a decision based on sound judgment and only in the interests of NR and all its citizens, and also in the interests of the MMP.
    > >
    > > I am amazed that some would try and turn this into a political issue when it is nothing of the sort.
    > >
    > > Vale,
    > >
    > > L Cornelius Cicero
    > >
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63441 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: a.d. XIV Kal. Mai.
    Cato omnibus in foro SPD

    Salvete omnes!

    Hodiernus dies est ante diem XIV Kal. Maius; haec dies nefastus est.

    Today is the ninth day of the ten-day festival of Ceres.

    "From the Lover's Leap, a white bluff at the southern end of their
    island, the Leucadians used annually to hurl a criminal into the sea
    as a scapegoat. But to lighten his fall they fastened live birds and
    feathers to him, and a flotilla of small boats waited below to catch
    him and convey him beyond the boundary. Probably these humane
    precautions were a mitigation of an earlier custom of flinging the
    scapegoat into the sea to drown. The Leucadian ceremony took place at
    the time of a sacrifice to Apollo, who had a temple or sanctuary on
    the spot. Elsewhere it was customary to cast a young man every year
    into the sea, with the prayer, "Be thou our offscouring." This
    ceremony was supposed to rid the people of the evils by which they
    were beset, or according to a somewhat different interpretation it
    redeemed them by paying the debt they owed to the sea-god. As
    practised by the Greeks of Asia Minor in the sixth century before our
    era, the custom of the scapegoat was as follows. When a city suffered
    from plague, famine, or other public calamity, an ugly or deformed
    person was chosen to take upon himself all the evils which afflicted
    the community. He was brought to a suitable place, where dried figs, a
    barley loaf, and cheese were put into his hand. These he ate. Then he
    was beaten seven times upon his genital organs with squills and
    branches of the wild fig and other wild trees, while the flutes played
    a particular tune. Afterwards he was burned on a pyre built of the
    wood of forest trees; and his ashes were cast into the sea. A similar
    custom appears to have been annually celebrated by the Asiatic Greeks
    at the harvest festival of the Thargelia.

    In the ritual just described the scourging of the victim with squills,
    branches of the wild fig, and so forth, cannot have been intended to
    aggravate his sufferings, otherwise any stick would have been good
    enough to beat him with. The true meaning of this part of the ceremony
    has been explained by W. Mannhardt. He points out that the ancients
    attributed to squills a magical power of averting evil influences, and
    that accordingly they hung them up at the doors of their houses and
    made use of them in purificatory rites. Hence the Arcadian custom of
    whipping the image of Pan with squills at a festival, or whenever the
    hunters returned empty-handed, must have been meant, not to punish the
    god, but to purify him from the harmful influences which were impeding
    him in the exercise of his divine functions as a god who should supply
    the hunter with game. Similarly the object of beating the human
    scapegoat on the genital organs with squills and so on, must have been
    to release his reproductive energies from any restraint or spell under
    which they might be laid by demoniacal or other malignant agency; and
    as the Thargelia at which he was annually sacrificed was an early
    harvest festival celebrated in May, we must recognise in him a
    representative of the creative and fertilising god of vegetation. The
    representative of the god was annually slain for the purpose I have
    indicated, that of maintaining the divine life in perpetual vigour,
    untainted by the weakness of age; and before he was put to death it
    was not unnatural to stimulate his reproductive powers in order that
    these might be transmitted in full activity to his successor, the new
    god or new embodiment of the old god, who was doubtless supposed
    immediately to take the place of the one slain. Similar reasoning
    would lead to a similar treatment of the scapegoat on special
    occasions, such as drought or famine. If the crops did not answer to
    the expectation of the husbandman, this would be attributed to some
    failure in the generative powers of the god whose function it was to
    produce the fruits of the earth. It might be thought that he was under
    a spell or was growing old and feeble. Accordingly he was slain in the
    person of his representative, with all the ceremonies already
    described, in order that, born young again, he might infuse his own
    youthful vigour into the stagnant energies of nature. On the same
    principle we can understand why Mamurius Veturius was beaten with
    rods, why the slave at the Chaeronean ceremony was beaten with the
    agnus castus (a tree to which magical properties were ascribed), why
    the effigy of Death in some parts of Europe is assailed with sticks
    and stones, and why at Babylon the criminal who played the god
    scourged before he was crucified. The purpose of the scourging was not
    to intensify the agony of the divine sufferer, but on the contrary to
    dispel any malignant influences by which at the supreme moment he
    might conceivably be beset.

    If these considerations are just, we must apparently conclude that
    while the human victims at the Thargelia certainly appear in later
    classical times to have figured chiefly as public scapegoats, who
    carried away with them the sins, misfortunes, and sorrows of the whole
    people, at an earlier time they may have been looked on as embodiments
    of vegetation, perhaps of the corn but particularly of the fig-trees;
    and that the beating which they received and the death which they died
    were intended primarily to brace and refresh the powers of vegetation
    then beginning to droop and languish under the torrid heat of the
    Greek summer.

    The view here taken of the Greek scapegoat, if it is correct, obviates
    an objection which might otherwise be brought against the main
    argument of this book. To the theory that the priest of Aricia was
    slain as a representative of the spirit of the grove, it might have
    been objected that such a custom has no analogy in classical
    antiquity. But reasons have now been given for believing that the
    human being periodically and occasionally slain by the Asiatic Greeks
    was regularly treated as an embodiment of a divinity of vegetation.
    Probably the persons whom the Athenians kept to be sacrificed were
    similarly treated as divine. That they were social outcasts did not
    matter. On the primitive view a man is not chosen to be the mouth-
    piece or embodiment of a god on account of his high moral qualities or
    social rank. The divine afflatus descends equally on the good and the
    bad, the lofty and the lowly. If then the civilised Greeks of Asia and
    Athens habitually sacrificed men whom they regarded as incarnate gods,
    there can be no inherent improbability in the supposition that at the
    dawn of history a similar custom was observed by the semibarbarous
    Latins in the Arician Grove." - Sir James Frazer, "The Golden Bough"
    ch. 58

    In ancient Greece, today was the celebration of the Thargelia, a
    festival of Appolo; the festival was an agricultural festival where
    the first fruits were offered to Apollo, but it also had an expiatory
    component, as described in "The Golden Bough". First, there was a
    procession, which included children who carried the eiresione, an
    olive branch decorated with woolen fillets, bread, fruits, small
    flasks of honey, and some with oil (Plutarch, Theseus, 22). Then,
    "The Eiresione brings figs and fat bread, honey in pots, and oil to
    rub down, a cup of strong wine so you go drunk to bed" (Homer, Iliad
    16.605). All kinds of first-fruits were carried in procession and
    offered to the god, and, as at the Pyanepsia (or Pyanopsia), branches
    of olive bound with wool, borne by children, were affixed by them to
    the doors of the houses. These branches, originally intended as a
    charm to avert failure of the crops, were afterwards regarded as
    forming part of a supplicatory service. On the second day choruses of
    men and boys took part in musical contests, the prize for which was a
    tripod. Further, on this day adopted persons were solemnly received
    into the genos and phrairia of their adoptive parents.

    Valete bene!

    Cato
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63442 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: Valorization, a Communist concept
    Cato Liviae Plautae sal.

    Salve!

    Livia, let's take your remarkable missive piece by piece:

    "the founders of the MM project could not possibly imagine that adult people, interested in ancient Rome, could take the word "restoration" in connection to an archaological [sic] site, as meaning 'rebuilding'."

    As has been shown, "rebuild" or "return to its original state" is the common and logical definition (in English) of the word "restore". More importantly, in a legal sense it is the most *reasonable* definition. The fact that a convoluted series of arguments needs to be made otherwise makes this point obvious.

    -------

    "They assumed that the mental level of NR citizens is higher than that of those American tourists who actually believed the scammers selling them the Colosseum or the Trevi fountain. Please, don't tell me they were wrong! I really can't believe that the mostly intelligent people we have here could believe they were donating funds for rebuilding the temple."

    QED; a person for whose intelligence you show the greatest respect believed that the word "restore" meant... "restore".

    -------

    "Anyway if some people mistakenly believed they were funding a rebuilding of the temple, all they have to do is ask for their money back. All the money is still there, as you can see from the budgets."

    Interesting. You have fallen under the misguided idea that fraud is acceptable if we just toss the money back and no-one notices; as if the commission of the crime itself will simply disappear. This may be true in a country or countries outside of the United States. In the US, we are responsible not just for returning the money but also to STOP the process by which monies are being collected. Ignorance is no excuse for the law in the United States; and not only did Caesar have the authority to shut it down, he had a legal burden to do so under the laws of the United States:

    ____________________________________________________________________

    Moreover, corporate directors and officers are presumed to know that which it is their duty to know and about which they have the means of knowing. - Darling & Co. v. Petri, 138 Kan. 666, 27 P.2d 255 (1933).

    ____________________________________________________________________

    Or to state it another way the officials are bound to know what they ought to know and would have known by proper attention to their business. - Baltimore & Ohio R.R. v. Foar, 84 F.2d 67 (7th Cir. 1936).

    ____________________________________________________________________

    And where the duty to know exists, ignorance resulting from neglected official duty creates the same liability as actual knowledge. - Ashby v.Peters, 128 Neb. 338, 258 N.W. 639, 99A.L.R. 843(1935).

    _____________________________________________________________________



    Please stop listening to the incoherent babble about a concept of law that has no bearing whatsoever on the law as actually practiced in the United States; step up, use your intelligence, and help get us done with this monstrosity instead of persevering in a delusional attempt to support those whose vanity, ignorance, and stubbornness have brought us, finally, into a confrontation with the government of the United States.

    Vale,

    Cato
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63443 From: Kirsteen Wright Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: Valorization, a Communist concept
    On 4/18/09, livia_plauta <livia.plauta@...> wrote:
    Salve Venator,
    the founders of the MM project could not possibly imagine that adult people, interested in ancient Rome, could take the word "restoration" in connection to an archaological site, as meaning "rebuilding".

    As an adult and a long time member of Nova Roma, I take the word 'restore' whether in an archaeological  sense or not to mean to return something to a state it was previously in (obviously a better state than at present and fit for purpose). If you simply want to stop the site deteriorating then you use the word 'preserve' or 'conserve'.

    There is a massive difference between conservation and restoration.

    Flavia Lucilla Merula


    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63444 From: Titus Annaeus Regulus Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: BECAUSE THE ARGUMENTS OF Cn.IULIUS CAESAR ARE WRONG
    Salve,
     
    I thought it meant rebuild the temple lol.
     
    Anything that starts with the letters re- I tend to associate with 'again'. So, being on the scent of a clue, I look to it's Latin roots, it is a derivative of instaurare 'to renew'. Restaurare: 'renew', or 'rebuild'. That should be pretty clear. The uses I am hearing being used here are either made up, or so rarely used in that context that I think the notice should have been put up regardless of signals. When I restored an old '71 Camaro I certainly didn't just throw a roof over it and pat myself on the back.
     
    I can't see us being able to point to an obscure dictionary definition of restore to defend our position on this. It seems misleading to me at least. In fact, I would say anyone who would use a synonym of 'renew' to describe an unstated goal that is apparently neither 're-' (I.e. again) or 'new' and expect others to just assume the same was the one suffering from a lack of understanding. Poor Merriam and Webster are bouncing around in their caskets somewhere..
     
    Vale,
    T. Annæus Regulus
     
    P.S. Nice thread title lol. The single lower-case letter really provides a nice contrast with the huge CAPS.

    Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 7:10 AM
    Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: BECAUSE THE ARGUMENTS OF Cn.IULIUS CAESAR ARE WRONG

    Salve Caesar,
    sorry, none of us could have supposed such an incredible level of ignorance and lack of understanding of a text.
    If people had been giving signals that they thought the temple was to be rebuilt, the MM project founders could certainly have put up a notice that this was not the case.

    Vale,
    Livia

    >
    > Cn. Iulius Caesar SPD.
    >
    > So, let me be sure I understand this. Restoration now is defined as
    shoring up old conservation work and building a protective canopy over the ruins to prevent further degradation due to the elements. Silly me, I thought it meant restoring the temple to its former glory, you know, pillars, tiles, altar etc.
    >
    > So restoration actually means patching up the bits that
    are left, yet the wiki entry on the Magna Mater Project seems to indicate that restoration will take a very long time. So we have two definitions of restoration. The wiki, taking a very very very long time and the website where the goal is easily achievable as we are just putting a roof over the ruins. Perhaps the roof over the ruins is meant to be gold plated?
    >
    > So
    when people donated money, as Curule Aedile I now have to know whether they were donating for a roof over the ruins or a full blown temple before I apportion their share of the funds accordingly?
    >
    > Interesting. And people
    wonder why this project simply shouldn't be put out of its misery?
    >
    > Optime valete.
    >
    >
    > From: livia_plauta
    >
    Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 6:15 PM
    > To:
    href="mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com">Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
    > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: BECAUSE THE ARGUMENTS OF Cn.IULIUS CAESAR ARE
    WRONG
    >
    >
    > L. Livia Plauta Cn. Iulio Caesari S.P.D.
    >
    > >
    > > I am sure all our donors went to this amount of
    reaerch over the meaning of the word restore and fully understood the utter impossibility of restoration.
    > >
    > No, they didn't need to do
    any research, because the meaning of "restoration" was explained in excruciating detail in the project description:
    >
    > "The preliminary project for
    the conservation of this important area of the Palatine stems from the necessity to solve the most urgent problems of the rain water drainage and of the protection from the disgregative action of the water itself.
    >

    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63445 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Conservation and Restoration (long post)
    Salvete,

    Instead of slinging mud back and forth and insulting each other, I think it's more reasonable to first of all recognize that there obviously was some confusion over the MMP aims. How did this come about?

    Now, since this is a very long post I will give you the abstract in case you don't want to read the rest: the MMP website description is in tension with the actual conservation work being done on the Palatine hill which can reasonably lead to confusion. Whether this tension is sufficient to constitute "fraud" I cannot say. OK, now here we go...

    When it comes to saving archaeological sites the normal keyword is "conservation" although "restoration" is used as well when some type of rebuilding is possible or desired. Often rebuilding, even partial, is not possible, but let's not pretend that it can't be done. Look at the wording of this news update: http://www.archaeology.org/online/news/acropolis.html . They use the word "restoration" for what is happening on the acropolis because, in fact, what is happening there is extensive rebuilding. Where stones are missing new ones are being fabricated, etc.

    This article on the work being done on the temple of Apollo Epikourios uses both terms: http://www.archaeology.org/0009/newsbriefs/monument.html . It describes the overall project as "restoration" but when detailing what will actually be done, clarifies that it will be conservation work.

    Finally, in describing the work being done at Sagalassos (http://www.archaeology.org/interactive/sagalassos/field07/index.html), both terms are used together "Conservation & Restoration". If you read the three short notes in this section of the website, you will find that both types of work are being engaged in, conservation and partial rebuilding (restoration).

    Finally, let us look at the MMP page and the Giavarini, Pensabene, et al. article that Complutensis linked for us yesterday. Under "Project" the website explains:

    "In 2002 the members of the international association Nova Roma Inc. decided to start a project that could boost and improve the relationship between this cultural association and the real world. It was decided to further the correct restoration and care of the Temple of Magna Mater on the Palatine Hill in Rome."

    Under the "Status" section:

    "The area is nowadays not reachable by the tourist because of the lack of funds for a complete restoration, that is going on very slowly.
    Prof. Patrizio Pensabene of the University of Rome "La Sapienza", Facoltà di Lettere e Filosofia, is the coordinator and chief of all the restoration works done in that area of the Palatine Hill..."

    Now turning to the Giavarini, Pensabene, et al. article, a careful reading makes it quite clear what their work will entail. Section three of the paper (p. 6) clearly labels the work "Conservation." What is described is primarily work to save the site from further deterioration or possible collapse. Part of this will involve work on some sewage ducts which will be "restored and used again." The upper parts will be "filled with light material to restore a flat roof on the top; the roof will be protected with waterproofing material and equipped with draining systems." Also, "a series of partial re-constructions or protective small substructions are also under study." However, it goes on to state that the current effort is to save the site from "possible collapses of the structures and further decay". Finally, the mention of "restoration works" in the last sentence clearly refers to the previous sentence and is not a description of the entire project.

    So, to the extent that there currently is "restoration" it is to control erosion by rainwater. Future, small efforts at "restoration" are under study. The overall effort at the moment is, however, "conservation." This is in tension with how the MMP website describes this project. The website says "complete restoration" and describes the current archaeological work as "restoration works."

    Now, on the "project" page the MMP site does use the phrase "the correct restoration and care". I think what the author(s) of this page intended to say was "conservation and restoration". Unfortunately, on the "status" page the emphasis is wholly on "restoration" which misrepresents the current work being done on the Palatine hill.

    What happened here? I suspect it was bad editing and writing. Whoever wrote the MMP content clearly was not familiar with the normal language of conservation and restoration work in archaeological articles. Part of this may have been because the author was not a native speaker of English (various style issues give this away). Another factor may have been an impulse towards sensationalization and exaggeration in order to get more donors.

    I'm not sure if the tension between the website descriptions and the actual work being done on the Palatine hill is sufficient to constitute fraud, but it can certainly be misleading, so I think the back and forth insults over whether someone could have intelligently divined the actual conservation work from the MMP website content should stop.

    Valete,

    Gualterus
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63446 From: Steve Moore Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: Conservation and Restoration (long post)

    Thank you, Gualterus, for that fine piece. It is this reasonable and thorough kind of reporting that will help inform everyone of the state of things. Your efforts are appreciated.

     

    M. Valerius Potitus

     

     


    From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of gualterus_graecus
    Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 9:40 AM
    To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: [Nova-Roma] Conservation and Restoration (long post)

     




    Salvete,

    Instead of slinging mud back and forth and insulting each other, I think it's more reasonable to first of all recognize that there obviously was some confusion over the MMP aims. How did this come about?

    Now, since this is a very long post

    Valete,

    Gualterus

    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63447 From: Steve Moore Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Reasonable Person Argument

     

    If I were a lawyer (which I’m not) or a juror (which I have been), faced with the situation regarding the MMP, I would have to ask the question: Would a “reasonable person” understand what his or her donations were going to be used for, based on the information presented by the MMP?

     

    One thing I suggest is that a “reasonable person” might not, in fact, take the time to read through all the description of sewers, erosion, and rainfall. This “reasonable person” might donate a small amount simply because of the representations given by the MMP (such as “complete restoration”) or simply because the project was backed by an organization (Nova Roma) which this “reasonable person” believed to be acting in the best interest of furthering Roman studies and archaeology. While it could be argued that anyone who donates money has an obligation to perform “due diligence” (for example, researching the MMP), it could also be argued that a “reasonable person” might very well donate a small amount without further “due diligence” under the assumption that the leaders of NR were acting in good faith by sponsoring the MMP.

     

    An example might be helpful. How many people have done thorough research of the way their employers invest their 401k accounts? Many people do not have the time or interest to find out where their money is going. For these people, it is satisfactory to know that the Human Resources department at their workplace has done the research and determined how best to invest the money.

     

    You could argue that everyone who has a 401k should know all the details, but a “reasonable person” (I suggest) might very well trust their company to make the decisions for them.

     

    I argue that a “reasonable person” could have been misled by the information presented by the MMP.

    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63448 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: Conservation and Restoration (long post)
    Correction - look to 5 onwards especially 6.
     
    Caesar.

    Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 11:18 AM
    Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Conservation and Restoration (long post)

    Cn Iulius Caesar SPD.

    I am going to keep this simple so we can focus on the issue. Look for the
    praetors intercessio where he copies my post to the Senate on the MMP.
    Ignore (4) - intent to defraud and look to (5). All that has to be shown is
    that we were NEGLIGENT and the rest flows naturally. Did we negligently
    provide false (it can be false OR fraudulent) pretenses, representations or
    promises for the purpose of soliciting funds for the MMP.

    Wire fraud can be either committed with intent OR -----NEGLIGENCE.......  At
    this stage how it happened will form the background to any indictment.

    Optime valete.


    From: gualterus_graecus
    Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 10:40 AM
    To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: [Nova-Roma] Conservation and Restoration (long post)


    Salvete,

    Instead of slinging mud back and forth and insulting each other, I think
    it's more reasonable to first of all recognize that there obviously was some
    confusion over the MMP aims. How
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63449 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: Conservation and Restoration (long post)
    Cn Iulius Caesar SPD.

    I am going to keep this simple so we can focus on the issue. Look for the
    praetors intercessio where he copies my post to the Senate on the MMP.
    Ignore (4) - intent to defraud and look to (5). All that has to be shown is
    that we were NEGLIGENT and the rest flows naturally. Did we negligently
    provide false (it can be false OR fraudulent) pretenses, representations or
    promises for the purpose of soliciting funds for the MMP.

    Wire fraud can be either committed with intent OR -----NEGLIGENCE....... At
    this stage how it happened will form the background to any indictment.

    Optime valete.


    From: gualterus_graecus
    Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 10:40 AM
    To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: [Nova-Roma] Conservation and Restoration (long post)


    Salvete,

    Instead of slinging mud back and forth and insulting each other, I think
    it's more reasonable to first of all recognize that there obviously was some
    confusion over the MMP aims. How
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63450 From: Christer Edling Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: Conservation and Restoration (long post)
    Salve Gualterus!

    Without having made a thorough evaluation, I can state as the co-
    founder of the MMP, that this is one of the most balanced, researched
    and well thought-through messages I have seen during the, in many
    aspcts, crazed discussion about about this project.

    There was surely, unintentional, language faults being done. I am a
    Swede for example and English isn't my natie language. Yes words have
    diifrent meanings and nuances in different langauages and cultures. It
    is easy to assume that you understand, without doing so in reality. I
    have to struggle with this all the time. that is one of the reasons
    why I am not that ative on the ML, beause if I misunderstand a word or
    a sentence I might have caused myself and others problems.

    The aim of the project was noble and also very original at that time
    in Nova Roma and still as. To give us a serious profile among the
    Academics (historical and archeological) in the world who work with
    the Roman period, by achieving a cooperation with a known scientist at
    one of the Universities of Rome.

    We do not have the "whole-hearted" respect of the international
    historical and archeological elit. If we could achieve such respect we
    thought Nova Roma would have much better chances of growing and
    attracting intelligent and knowledgeable discussions. Which in its
    turn would attract more citizens and probably other even more
    productive project, this should be an aim worthy as a goal.

    The sad fact is that what goes on on our ML isn't directly promoting
    such a serious and productive enviroment. Because of that I can only
    commend the tone and approach of your article. I even think it goes a
    good way to reach an acceptable common "truth" about what has happened
    with the project. Assuming bad faith from the main parts in this
    discussion will not do that. If such an achievement could be reached
    we could soon fix this problem and move forward without letting
    oneissue tak al our time.

    ********

    18 apr 2009 kl. 18.40 skrev gualterus_graecus:

    Salvete,

    Instead of slinging mud back and forth and insulting each other, I
    think it's more reasonable to first of all recognize that there
    obviously was some confusion over the MMP aims. How did this come about?

    Now, since this is a very long post I will give you the abstract in
    case you don't want to read the rest: the MMP website description is
    in tension with the actual conservation work being done on the
    Palatine hill which can reasonably lead to confusion. Whether this
    tension is sufficient to constitute "fraud" I cannot say. OK, now here
    we go...

    When it comes to saving archaeological sites the normal keyword is
    "conservation" although "restoration" is used as well when some type
    of rebuilding is possible or desired. Often rebuilding, even partial,
    is not possible, but let's not pretend that it can't be done. Look at
    the wording of this news update: http://www.archaeology.org/online/news/acropolis.html
    . They use the word "restoration" for what is happening on the
    acropolis because, in fact, what is happening there is extensive
    rebuilding. Where stones are missing new ones are being fabricated, etc.

    This article on the work being done on the temple of Apollo Epikourios
    uses both terms: http://www.archaeology.org/0009/newsbriefs/monument.html
    . It describes the overall project as "restoration" but when
    detailing what will actually be done, clarifies that it will be
    conservation work.

    Finally, in describing the work being done at Sagalassos (http://www.archaeology.org/interactive/sagalassos/field07/index.html
    ), both terms are used together "Conservation & Restoration". If you
    read the three short notes in this section of the website, you will
    find that both types of work are being engaged in, conservation and
    partial rebuilding (restoration).

    Finally, let us look at the MMP page and the Giavarini, Pensabene, et
    al. article that Complutensis linked for us yesterday. Under "Project"
    the website explains:

    "In 2002 the members of the international association Nova Roma Inc.
    decided to start a project that could boost and improve the
    relationship between this cultural association and the real world. It
    was decided to further the correct restoration and care of the Temple
    of Magna Mater on the Palatine Hill in Rome."

    Under the "Status" section:

    "The area is nowadays not reachable by the tourist because of the lack
    of funds for a complete restoration, that is going on very slowly.
    Prof. Patrizio Pensabene of the University of Rome "La Sapienza",
    Facoltà di Lettere e Filosofia, is the coordinator and chief of all
    the restoration works done in that area of the Palatine Hill..."

    Now turning to the Giavarini, Pensabene, et al. article, a careful
    reading makes it quite clear what their work will entail. Section
    three of the paper (p. 6) clearly labels the work "Conservation." What
    is described is primarily work to save the site from further
    deterioration or possible collapse. Part of this will involve work on
    some sewage ducts which will be "restored and used again." The upper
    parts will be "filled with light material to restore a flat roof on
    the top; the roof will be protected with waterproofing material and
    equipped with draining systems." Also, "a series of partial re-
    constructions or protective small substructions are also under
    study." However, it goes on to state that the current effort is to
    save the site from "possible collapses of the structures and further
    decay". Finally, the mention of "restoration works" in the last
    sentence clearly refers to the previous sentence and is not a
    description of the entire project.

    So, to the extent that there currently is "restoration" it is to
    control erosion by rainwater. Future, small efforts at "restoration"
    are under study. The overall effort at the moment is, however,
    "conservation." This is in tension with how the MMP website describes
    this project. The website says "complete restoration" and describes
    the current archaeological work as "restoration works."

    Now, on the "project" page the MMP site does use the phrase "the
    correct restoration and care". I think what the author(s) of this page
    intended to say was "conservation and restoration". Unfortunately, on
    the "status" page the emphasis is wholly on "restoration" which
    misrepresents the current work being done on the Palatine hill.

    What happened here? I suspect it was bad editing and writing. Whoever
    wrote the MMP content clearly was not familiar with the normal
    language of conservation and restoration work in archaeological
    articles. Part of this may have been because the author was not a
    native speaker of English (various style issues give this away).
    Another factor may have been an impulse towards sensationalization and
    exaggeration in order to get more donors.

    I'm not sure if the tension between the website descriptions and the
    actual work being done on the Palatine hill is sufficient to
    constitute fraud, but it can certainly be misleading, so I think the
    back and forth insults over whether someone could have intelligently
    divined the actual conservation work from the MMP website content
    should stop.

    Valete,

    Gualterus





    ------------------------------------

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    *****************
    Vale

    Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus

    Princeps Senatus et Flamen Palatualis
    Civis Romanus sum
    http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Main_Page
    ************************************************
    Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
    "I'll either find a way or make one"
    ************************************************
    Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
    Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
    ************************************************
    Mons Palatinus, Clivus Victoriae
    Palatine Hill, Incline of Victoriae
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63451 From: Kirsteen Wright Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: Conservation and Restoration (long post)
    On 4/18/09, gualterus_graecus <waltms1@...> wrote:

    Under the "Status" section:

    "The area is nowadays not reachable by the tourist because of the lack of funds for a complete restoration, that is going on very slowly.

    Thank you for the explanation.  The problem I see is that the above sentence talks about a 'complete restoration' and says it's proceeding slowly. On reading that I don't see how any reasonable person could conclude that it's just preservation of the site and prevention of further decay that funds are being sought for. I think most people reading that would expect a complete restoration to be going on however slowly.

    Flavia Lucilla Merula


    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63452 From: Maior Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: our CFO and Nova Roma's upstanding status
    M. Hortensia Quiritibus spd
    I've spoken with our Cheif Financial Officer Equestria Laeca, who
    is a professional financial analyst and accountant.

    She told me that last year 2008, to get Nova Roma's affairs in order she
    spoke with all the necessary state and federal agencies that govern non-profits to ensure that
    EVERY single filing of Nova Roma was proper, what liablitity there might be from from previous years and also
    to determine what we need to file in the future when we grow.

    Equestria devoted hours of her free time to ensure Nova Roma's
    upstanding status as a non-profit. Feel free to ask her if this is so. I certainly did.

    She told me Gn. Iulius Caesar, Sulla, nor Cato never contacted her.


    So Quirites, this 'uproar' is manufactured, Nova Roma is totally compliant with all state and federal laws that govern non-profits.

    I am sorry such aggravation was caused when a simple letter to Equestria would have answered all questions.

    I am thankful that last years consuls M. Moravius Piscinus and Iulius Sabinus, secured such an excellent ethical person Equestria Laeca to protect Nova Roma and the monies of its citizens.
    bene valete in pacem deorum
    M. Hortensia Maior
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63453 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: our CFO and Nova Roma's upstanding status
    Where is Iunia to speak for herself? I want to her her go on the record?

    Vale,

    Sulla


    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@...> wrote:
    >
    > M. Hortensia Quiritibus spd
    > I've spoken with our Cheif Financial Officer Equestria Laeca, who
    > is a professional financial analyst and accountant.
    >
    > She told me that last year 2008, to get Nova Roma's affairs in order she
    > spoke with all the necessary state and federal agencies that govern non-profits to ensure that
    > EVERY single filing of Nova Roma was proper, what liablitity there might be from from previous years and also
    > to determine what we need to file in the future when we grow.
    >
    > Equestria devoted hours of her free time to ensure Nova Roma's
    > upstanding status as a non-profit. Feel free to ask her if this is so. I certainly did.
    >
    > She told me Gn. Iulius Caesar, Sulla, nor Cato never contacted her.
    >
    >
    > So Quirites, this 'uproar' is manufactured, Nova Roma is totally compliant with all state and federal laws that govern non-profits.
    >
    > I am sorry such aggravation was caused when a simple letter to Equestria would have answered all questions.
    >
    > I am thankful that last years consuls M. Moravius Piscinus and Iulius Sabinus, secured such an excellent ethical person Equestria Laeca to protect Nova Roma and the monies of its citizens.
    > bene valete in pacem deorum
    > M. Hortensia Maior
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63454 From: Teresa Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: MMP suspension of website - INTERCESSIO

    The Department of Justice does not provide names of complainants... however, with your law degree you already know this. The DoJ can disclose that a complaint has been filed, but need disclose no more. Another consideration is that there are multiple avenues for complaints to be filed, there is also IC3 (Internet Crime Complaint Center, joint effort of FBI and National White Collar Crime Center), direct FBI complaints, Criminal Division Fraud Section of DoJ, and the Civil Division Office of Consumer Litigation that I can think of off of the top of my head, and I just have a Bachelors in CJUS, not a law degree. Ignorance (of the law) is not a defense, another basic tenant of the U.S. legal system.

     

    For those interested in doing their own research into the resources available to complainants please visit the DoJ site.

     

    Vale,

    Crinita

     

    From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Maior
    Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 8:24 PM
    To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: MMP suspension of website – INTERCESSIO

    -Salvete;
    this is the first I've heard of outside complaints? Who is doing it?
    Names please. Just rumor creates a very bad atmosphere, it tarnishes Nova Roma by rumor and innuendo, a terrible thing.

    As I said a good faith effort, would have meant that Gn. Iulius Caesar took his concerns to Equestria Laeca our CFO, and Sabinus the MM project coordinator and spoke to both Consuls, Nova Roma Incs, managing directors, in private to get his questions answered.

    This didn't happen. Instead the website was publically taken down, and a hubbub raised in the Senate and now on the Main List.

    As a director Caesar has a fidciary duty to act in the best interests of our corporation, Was this the best and most efficient manner?

    And the above comes from Equestria Laeca, our CFO. She found our financial records entirely in order.

    optime valete
    M. Hortensia Maior


    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63455 From: vallenporter Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: our CFO and Nova Roma's upstanding status
    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@...> wrote:
    >
    > M. Hortensia Quiritibus spd
    > I've spoken with our Cheif Financial Officer Equestria Laeca, who
    > is a professional financial analyst and accountant.
    >
    > She told me that last year 2008, to get Nova Roma's affairs in order she
    > spoke with all the necessary state and federal agencies that govern non-profits to ensure that
    > EVERY single filing of Nova Roma was proper, what liablitity there might be from from previous years and also
    > to determine what we need to file in the future when we grow.
    >
    > Equestria devoted hours of her free time to ensure Nova Roma's
    > upstanding status as a non-profit. Feel free to ask her if this is so. I certainly did.

    I did starting about mar 22 this year when i was trying to get the paperwork out of NR that would let me , or have NR file with my state so i could ask people for money for NR.
    when i showed her the law cites title and sec of the ORS she said to me in a e-mail dated 24 March 2009 00:33

    "Equestria Iunia Laeca Marco Cornelio Felix sal.

    I will contact your Attorney General tomorrow and report back to you. It is likely that we will need to comply."

    this was in reply to a email i sent her ,that in part i said "
    Salve Equestria Iunia Laeca

    I wish to talk about asking for donations at some meeting I am going to have in my city.From people not in NR.
    the State of oregon ( where I live) like most states has a law on the books that says.
    before I can do this , NR needs to file with the Charitable Activities Section of the state DOJ,

    cite of law is ORS 128.610 through 128.750

    and Oregon Administrative Rules Section 137, Division 10 -137-10-043 through 137-10-055 .

    can you help with this as I want to run a both at three summer fiars in portland, in the past when i would bring this up TPTB in NR would judt say that "no we do not have to file in each statr as we are with the IRS as a 501(C{3}) etc.. thats just says people can take a donation off the taxes, not if you can ask in the satate fro money from people.

    My e-mail is at

    magewuffa(at )gmail(dot)com

    Vale Marcus Cornelius Felix
    Sacerdos Templi Mercurius"

    NOTE the ORS 128.610 through 128.750

    and Oregon Administrative Rules Section 137, Division 10 -137-10-043 through 137-10-055 .

    thats the law thats says we must file with the state of oregon before I can go to say pagan fair and ask for money for NR.

    I have been trying to get this thru the TPTB in NR each year for the last 8.

    then there the state of maine
    Note that in the state of Maine we are under the Charitable
    Solicitations Act (Title 9, Chapter 385: CHARITABLE SOLICITATIONS ACT.
    9 §5001.)and should look to file there and any state we are asking or
    going to be asking for money from people not in NovaRoma.

    this was before the MMP fight started up.
    MCF












    >
    > She told me Gn. Iulius Caesar, Sulla, nor Cato never contacted her.
    >
    >
    > So Quirites, this 'uproar' is manufactured, Nova Roma is totally compliant with all state and federal laws that govern non-profits.
    >
    > I am sorry such aggravation was caused when a simple letter to Equestria would have answered all questions.
    >
    > I am thankful that last years consuls M. Moravius Piscinus and Iulius Sabinus, secured such an excellent ethical person Equestria Laeca to protect Nova Roma and the monies of its citizens.
    > bene valete in pacem deorum
    > M. Hortensia Maior
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63456 From: vallenporter Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: our CFO and Nova Roma's upstanding status
    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@...> wrote:
    >
    > M. Hortensia Quiritibus spd
    > I've spoken with our Cheif Financial Officer Equestria Laeca, who
    > is a professional financial analyst and accountant.
    >
    > She told me that last year 2008, to get Nova Roma's affairs in order she
    > spoke with all the necessary state and federal agencies that govern non-profits to ensure that
    > EVERY single filing of Nova Roma was proper, what liablitity there might be from from previous years and also
    > to determine what we need to file in the future when we grow.
    >
    > Equestria devoted hours of her free time to ensure Nova Roma's
    > upstanding status as a non-profit. Feel free to ask her if this is so. I certainly did.

    If at any time in the Past we as NR as soon as we got the 503(c{3}) letter

    ever got even so much as $1 from any one out side of NR the law says we file with the DOJ Public Charities Unit. with the state the money has come from.
    for the internet we file with state we incorped in.
    I have given two states law cite on the ever sate but 7 have laws on the book like this
    SO IF WE HAVE funds given us from OUTSIDE NR QED we have to file.
    and we have not.


    SO Nova Roma is NOT compliant with all state and federal laws that govern non-profits.
    MCF










    >
    > She told me Gn. Iulius Caesar, Sulla, nor Cato never contacted her.
    >
    >
    > So Quirites, this 'uproar' is manufactured, Nova Roma is totally compliant with all state and federal laws that govern non-profits.
    >
    > I am sorry such aggravation was caused when a simple letter to Equestria would have answered all questions.
    >
    > I am thankful that last years consuls M. Moravius Piscinus and Iulius Sabinus, secured such an excellent ethical person Equestria Laeca to protect Nova Roma and the monies of its citizens.
    > bene valete in pacem deorum
    > M. Hortensia Maior
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63457 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: our CFO and Nova Roma's upstanding status
    Cato Maiori sal.

    Salve!

    More ouright lies, Maior. You know, if you lie it doesn't make the Bad Thing go away.

    I and Caesar and Sulla and Paulinus and I forget who else have been in contact via private email, contact which is ongoing as we speak.

    Equestria Laeca is a financial analyst, not an accountant. You will no doubt attempt to turn this into an attack on her, but you can take that out of your little mind right now.

    Nova Roma is *not* in compliance with the law.

    Frankly, you are a serious danger legally to the res publica right now, as was made abundantly clear yesterday with your manic babbling about ancient Roman law and our "right" to violate the law as we saw fit.

    You are quick to boast, eager to demand everyone's qualifications to take a poop, and yet refuse to provide your own credentials. How's about it? Where's your law degree from? When did you pass the bar? Where are you currently practicing and what type of law is it?

    And even if - by some delightfully perverse sense of reality's humor - you actually *are* in possession of a degree in law, you *still* have no clue what you are talking about.

    Vale,

    Cato
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63458 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: MMp donations
    Salvete all,

    Just curious question : how much money was actally collected for the MM
    Project? The website has a rubriek called 'investors' but that hasn't been
    updated in years. Noricus disappeared from NR years ago and he is listed as
    the last donation. I check the MMP site about twice per years for the last
    few years because I wanted my macro name be removed from the page. I've sent
    several emails and they've always bounced.
    Valete,
    Diana
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63459 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Fw: [BackAlley] FWD from ML
    This, I think, is relevant. From the Back Alley:

    --------------------------------------------------
    From: "Gregory Rose"
    Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 1:27 PM
    To: <BackAlley@yahoogroups.com>
    Subject: Re: [BackAlley] FWD from ML

    > Scaurus omnibus SPD.
    > Quintilianus' response to Gualterus perfectly exposes one of the
    > fundamental
    > reasons NR will always be a failure.
    >
    > The idea that NR needs or can gain recognition and respect from the
    > international scholarly community is absurd on the face of it. I know for
    > a
    > fact that NR will always be regarded as a crackpot quasi-recreationist
    > organization by the vast majority of professional classicists, historians,
    > and archaeologists, precisely because NR embraces any bloody crackpot who
    > has a fantasy about Rome. I know what colleagues think about NR and no
    > amount of PR bullshite is going to change it.
    >
    > NR was never founded to appeal to the academic community. It's real
    > audience is the Roman Reconstructionist community. But since Quintilianus
    > and his ilk are atheists (in his case, a Buddhist atheist) who are
    > embarassed by the Religio Romana, they would never seriously reach out to
    > Reconstructionists to recruit. They'd much rather massage their petty
    > bourgeoise egos by preening about how nice it would be for real
    > classicists
    > to respect them..
    >
    > The Magna Mater Project has always been about this masturbatory
    > self-promotionism.
    >
    > I knew that the MMP was a farce from the first time I spoke to the lead
    > Italian archaeologist and was told that (1) Italian law prohibited
    > archaeological reconstruction of the temple because of the presence of a
    > protected grove of trees and (2) there was no chance that Roman
    > Reconstructionists would ever be given permission to conduct caerimoniae
    > on
    > the site. I had that contact during my curule aedileship, and it is the
    > reason I refused to have anything further to do with the MMP and left it
    > to
    > my colleague Perusianus.
    >
    > I am convinced that NR perpetrated a knowing fraud on those from whom it
    > collected funds since both the on-site Italian members and NR magistrates
    > KNEW that the Italian archaeologists had determined that archaeological
    > reconstruction could in principle never proceed and that Roman
    > Reconstructionists would be permanently banned from using the site for
    > religious purposes. But the ego boost of being allowed to shill for
    > Italian
    > archaeologists was too great for TPTB to resist.
    >
    > Valete.
    >
    > Scaurus
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63460 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: TO ALL CITIZENS IN THE US
    Salve Rota,

    <After some postings here nothing moves. What'up fellow Romans?
    <So far there is only one loyal citizen who s interested in such an
    <event.

    Umm well... Only 6 days ago you posted "Be glad you guys it is all on the
    web, If you would be closer to me.... I would come after you in real life
    and the Roman Way believe me by my real Roman blood !!! "

    Maybe like me, many citizens want to keep their relationship with you
    limited to 'web' only?

    Vale,
    Diana
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63461 From: Publius Memmius Albucius Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Title of a topic ('Valorization, a Communist concept')
    P. Memmius Albucius praetor omnibus s.d.

    I recommend you, if you wish carry on the discussion on the "restauration" topic, for ex in the frame of the MMP debate, that you change its title, and for three reasons:

    - the word 'valorization' may not have the same meaning in our different current cultural national societies. For ex., the way this word is currently used where I live in is just about "adding value to smthg", whatever it be: a land, a capital, an action.

    - if the word 'valorization', relative to the marxian use, is preferred in English, other languages use other expressions or words: 'plus-value' in French, 'verweltung' in German, etc.. So the assimilation ['valorization'= Marx = communists] cannot be understood in these languages and these cultures.

    - the equivalence 'valorisation=communist concept' may be seen as negative, as well for the topic which the word is applied to, as for the communist ideology itself. In this frame, in order that we not enter in an "off-topic" matter, I will not accept the messages on this topic or whose title would still be the one mentioned above.

    Thanks all for your understanding. :-)

    Valete,


    P. Memmius Albucius
    praetor
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63462 From: Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: Title of a topic ('Valorization, a Communist concept')
    Ave honored Praetor;

    On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 4:52 PM, Publius Memmius Albucius wrote:
    >
    > P. Memmius Albucius praetor omnibus s.d.
    >
    > I recommend you, if you wish carry on the discussion [excision]
    >
    > Thanks all for your understanding. :-)
    >
    > Valete,
    >
    > P. Memmius Albucius
    > praetor
    >

    null problem

    vale - Venator
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63463 From: livia_plauta Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: Conservation and Restoration (long post)
    Salve Gualtere,
    it's so nice to see someone writing with total objectivity and neutrality, for a change.
    Your assessment seems right. If the potential donors had read the text it would have been completely clear what the project was about.

    Obviously there was a huge miscommunication problem, but the solution would have been to to call the attention of the people responsible on this, and ask for a reformulation of the text.
    Nobody in Europe really had a way to foresee such a gross misunderstanding.

    Vale,
    Livia

    >
    > Salvete,
    >
    > Instead of slinging mud back and forth and insulting each other, I think it's more reasonable to first of all recognize that there obviously was some confusion over the MMP aims. How did this come about?
    >
    > Now, since this is a very long post I will give you the abstract in case you don't want to read the rest: the MMP website description is in tension with the actual conservation work being done on the Palatine hill which can reasonably lead to confusion. Whether this tension is sufficient to constitute "fraud" I cannot say. OK, now here we go...
    >
    > When it comes to saving archaeological sites the normal keyword is "conservation" although "restoration" is used as well when some type of rebuilding is possible or desired. Often rebuilding, even partial, is not possible, but let's not pretend that it can't be done. Look at the wording of this news update: http://www.archaeology.org/online/news/acropolis.html . They use the word "restoration" for what is happening on the acropolis because, in fact, what is happening there is extensive rebuilding. Where stones are missing new ones are being fabricated, etc.
    >
    > This article on the work being done on the temple of Apollo Epikourios uses both terms: http://www.archaeology.org/0009/newsbriefs/monument.html . It describes the overall project as "restoration" but when detailing what will actually be done, clarifies that it will be conservation work.
    >
    > Finally, in describing the work being done at Sagalassos (http://www.archaeology.org/interactive/sagalassos/field07/index.html), both terms are used together "Conservation & Restoration". If you read the three short notes in this section of the website, you will find that both types of work are being engaged in, conservation and partial rebuilding (restoration).
    >
    > Finally, let us look at the MMP page and the Giavarini, Pensabene, et al. article that Complutensis linked for us yesterday. Under "Project" the website explains:
    >
    > "In 2002 the members of the international association Nova Roma Inc. decided to start a project that could boost and improve the relationship between this cultural association and the real world. It was decided to further the correct restoration and care of the Temple of Magna Mater on the Palatine Hill in Rome."
    >
    > Under the "Status" section:
    >
    > "The area is nowadays not reachable by the tourist because of the lack of funds for a complete restoration, that is going on very slowly.
    > Prof. Patrizio Pensabene of the University of Rome "La Sapienza", Facoltà di Lettere e Filosofia, is the coordinator and chief of all the restoration works done in that area of the Palatine Hill..."
    >
    > Now turning to the Giavarini, Pensabene, et al. article, a careful reading makes it quite clear what their work will entail. Section three of the paper (p. 6) clearly labels the work "Conservation." What is described is primarily work to save the site from further deterioration or possible collapse. Part of this will involve work on some sewage ducts which will be "restored and used again." The upper parts will be "filled with light material to restore a flat roof on the top; the roof will be protected with waterproofing material and equipped with draining systems." Also, "a series of partial re-constructions or protective small substructions are also under study." However, it goes on to state that the current effort is to save the site from "possible collapses of the structures and further decay". Finally, the mention of "restoration works" in the last sentence clearly refers to the previous sentence and is not a description of the entire project.
    >
    > So, to the extent that there currently is "restoration" it is to control erosion by rainwater. Future, small efforts at "restoration" are under study. The overall effort at the moment is, however, "conservation." This is in tension with how the MMP website describes this project. The website says "complete restoration" and describes the current archaeological work as "restoration works."
    >
    > Now, on the "project" page the MMP site does use the phrase "the correct restoration and care". I think what the author(s) of this page intended to say was "conservation and restoration". Unfortunately, on the "status" page the emphasis is wholly on "restoration" which misrepresents the current work being done on the Palatine hill.
    >
    > What happened here? I suspect it was bad editing and writing. Whoever wrote the MMP content clearly was not familiar with the normal language of conservation and restoration work in archaeological articles. Part of this may have been because the author was not a native speaker of English (various style issues give this away). Another factor may have been an impulse towards sensationalization and exaggeration in order to get more donors.
    >
    > I'm not sure if the tension between the website descriptions and the actual work being done on the Palatine hill is sufficient to constitute fraud, but it can certainly be misleading, so I think the back and forth insults over whether someone could have intelligently divined the actual conservation work from the MMP website content should stop.
    >
    > Valete,
    >
    > Gualterus
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63465 From: Titus Annaeus Regulus Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: Conservation and Restoration (long post)
    Perhaps those in Europe could have done the same thing you now advise? The solution would have been to call the attention of the people who speak the language the text was written in. Ask somebody who speaks English as a first language. Restore is not conserve. The idea that only non-native English speakers worked on the project, and that there was no way to foresee a misunderstanding is a farce imo, especially considering quite a few NR citizens are native English speakers. I wouldn't write an article looking for fundraising in France and post it. I speak some French as a Canadian, but it is not my first language, and communications regarding something as important as transfer of monies would definitely warrant me asking one of our fine French citizens for their opinion on my article.
     
    That would mean that not once was anybody who was familiar with colloquial English consulted. That seems like gross negligence, although I am fairly convinced that it was not purposeful fraud. All the same, if our own ineptitude caused the situation, we would still be legally liable. Perhaps rather than allocate blame we should simply fix the issue, and put structures in place so this doesn't happen again.
     
    I like the MMP, both what I thought it was and what it actually is, but I think it could reasonably be argued we were misleading. That is enough to at least notify the donors of the actual details of the project in my mind. If they choose to withdraw their funds, it is their choice. The action of MMP identifying a possible ambiguity, and then notifying donors to avoid possible misunderstanding would be an excellent example of good faith on our part should we ever be in a situation to defend ourselves legally. Was it to be known that we bantered around possible ambiguity and possibly misleading donors, and did nothing, that would set an example of an entirely different sort, and we can all imagine what that would be.
     
    Vale,
    T. Annæus Regulus

    Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 8:26 PM
    Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Conservation and Restoration (long post)

    Salve Gualtere,
    it's so nice to see someone writing with total objectivity and neutrality, for a change.
    Your assessment seems right. If the potential donors had read the text it would have been completely clear what the project was about.

    Obviously there was a huge miscommunication problem, but the solution would have been to to call the attention of the people responsible on this, and ask for a reformulation of the text.
    Nobody in Europe really had a way to foresee such a gross misunderstanding.

    Vale,
    Livia

    >
    > Salvete,
    >
    > Instead of slinging mud back and forth and insulting each other, I
    think it's more reasonable to first of all recognize that there obviously was some confusion over the MMP aims. How did this come about?
    >
    > Now,
    since this is a very long post I will give you the abstract in case you don't want to read the rest: the MMP website description is in tension with the actual conservation work being done on the Palatine hill which can reasonably lead to confusion. Whether this tension is sufficient to constitute "fraud" I cannot say. OK, now here we go...
    >
    > When it comes to saving
    archaeological sites the normal keyword is "conservation" although "restoration" is used as well when some type of rebuilding is possible or desired. Often rebuilding, even partial, is not possible, but let's not pretend that it can't be done. Look at the wording of this news update: http://www.archaeol ogy.org/online/ news/acropolis. html . They use the word "restoration" for what is happening on the acropolis because, in fact, what is happening there is extensive rebuilding. Where stones are missing new ones are being fabricated, etc.
    >
    > This article on
    the work being done on the temple of Apollo Epikourios uses both terms: http://www.archaeol ogy.org/0009/ newsbriefs/ monument. html . It describes the overall project as "restoration" but when detailing what will actually be done, clarifies that it will be conservation work.
    >
    >
    Finally, in describing the work being done at Sagalassos (http://www.archaeol ogy.org/interact ive/sagalassos/ field07/index. html), both terms are used together "Conservation & Restoration" . If you read the three short notes in this section of the website, you will find that both types of work are being engaged in, conservation and partial rebuilding (restoration) .
    >
    > Finally, let us look at the MMP page and
    the Giavarini, Pensabene, et al. article that Complutensis linked for us yesterday. Under "Project" the website explains:
    >
    > "In 2002 the
    members of the international association Nova Roma Inc. decided to start a project that could boost and improve the relationship between this cultural association and the real world. It was decided to further the correct restoration and care of the Temple of Magna Mater on the Palatine Hill in Rome."
    >
    > Under the "Status" section:
    >
    > "The area
    is nowadays not reachable by the tourist because of the lack of funds for a complete restoration, that is going on very slowly.
    > Prof. Patrizio
    Pensabene of the University of Rome "La Sapienza", Facoltà di Lettere e Filosofia, is the coordinator and chief of all the restoration works done in that area of the Palatine Hill..."
    >
    > Now turning to the
    Giavarini, Pensabene, et al. article, a careful reading makes it quite clear what their work will entail. Section three of the paper (p. 6) clearly labels the work "Conservation. " What is described is primarily work to save the site from further deterioration or possible collapse. Part of this will involve work on some sewage ducts which will be "restored and used again." The upper parts will be "filled with light material to restore a flat roof on the top; the roof will be protected with waterproofing material and equipped with draining systems." Also, "a series of partial re-constructions or protective small substructions are also under study." However, it goes on to state that the current effort is to save the site from "possible collapses of the structures and further decay". Finally, the mention of "restoration works" in the last sentence clearly refers to the previous sentence and is not a description of the entire project.
    >
    > So, to the extent that there currently is
    "restoration" it is to control erosion by rainwater. Future, small efforts at "restoration" are under study. The overall effort at the moment is, however, "conservation. " This is in tension with how the MMP website describes this project. The website says "complete restoration" and describes the current archaeological work as "restoration works."
    >
    > Now, on the
    "project" page the MMP site does use the phrase "the correct restoration and care". I think what the author(s) of this page intended to say was "conservation and restoration" . Unfortunately, on the "status" page the emphasis is wholly on "restoration" which misrepresents the current work being done on the Palatine hill.
    >
    > What happened here? I suspect it was bad editing
    and writing. Whoever wrote the MMP content clearly was not familiar with the normal language of conservation and restoration work in archaeological articles. Part of this may have been because the author was not a native speaker of English (various style issues give this away). Another factor may have been an impulse towards sensationalization and exaggeration in order to get more donors.
    >
    > I'm not sure if the tension between the website
    descriptions and the actual work being done on the Palatine hill is sufficient to constitute fraud, but it can certainly be misleading, so I think the back and forth insults over whether someone could have intelligently divined the actual conservation work from the MMP website content should stop.
    >
    >
    Valete,
    >
    > Gualterus
    >

    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63466 From: S Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: Title of a topic ('Valorization, a Communist concept')
    transmission begins -

    OKAY NOW!

    Where is the reply that Gaius Equitius Cato wrote on this topic!?

    I have it in my inbox (I keep a copy of EVERYTHING).

    Yahoo is a US company and as such operates under US law.

    Freedom of Speech is a Gods-given Right, recognize by the highest Law of the US, the Constitution thereof.

    Nothing Cato wrote was couched in offensive or profane terms.

    If I do not see the message in my in box within 30 minutes, I will repost it myself.

    If I am moderated. . .

    Citizens of Nova Roma, the silent majority, do you care what is going on here?

    transmission ends - Venator
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63467 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: Conservation and Restoration (long post)
    Salve,

    I completely agree with your final suggestion, that all of the donors be notified (email and surface mail if possible) to let them know that a possible miscommunication may have taken place, that we are aware of this, and that if they wish to get their money back they can.

    In addition, the website should not be brought back until the content has been properly edited, not only for the specific points of miscommunication, but to make it fluent and professional English.

    Finally, a big notice should be placed on the front page that lets everyone know that we are aware of possible misunderstandings over the aims of the project.

    While the above points may not be a complete solution to the present difficulties, I think they are a good first step.

    Vale,

    Gualterus

    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Titus Annaeus Regulus" <t.annaevsregvlvs@...> wrote:
    >
    > Perhaps those in Europe could have done the same thing you now advise? The solution would have been to call the attention of the people who speak the language the text was written in. Ask somebody who speaks English as a first language. Restore is not conserve. The idea that only non-native English speakers worked on the project, and that there was no way to foresee a misunderstanding is a farce imo, especially considering quite a few NR citizens are native English speakers. I wouldn't write an article looking for fundraising in France and post it. I speak some French as a Canadian, but it is not my first language, and communications regarding something as important as transfer of monies would definitely warrant me asking one of our fine French citizens for their opinion on my article.
    >
    > That would mean that not once was anybody who was familiar with colloquial English consulted. That seems like gross negligence, although I am fairly convinced that it was not purposeful fraud. All the same, if our own ineptitude caused the situation, we would still be legally liable. Perhaps rather than allocate blame we should simply fix the issue, and put structures in place so this doesn't happen again.
    >
    > I like the MMP, both what I thought it was and what it actually is, but I think it could reasonably be argued we were misleading. That is enough to at least notify the donors of the actual details of the project in my mind. If they choose to withdraw their funds, it is their choice. The action of MMP identifying a possible ambiguity, and then notifying donors to avoid possible misunderstanding would be an excellent example of good faith on our part should we ever be in a situation to defend ourselves legally. Was it to be known that we bantered around possible ambiguity and possibly misleading donors, and did nothing, that would set an example of an entirely different sort, and we can all imagine what that would be.
    >
    > Vale,
    > T. Annæus Regulus
    >
    >
    > From: livia_plauta
    > Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 8:26 PM
    > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Conservation and Restoration (long post)
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Salve Gualtere,
    > it's so nice to see someone writing with total objectivity and neutrality, for a change.
    > Your assessment seems right. If the potential donors had read the text it would have been completely clear what the project was about.
    >
    > Obviously there was a huge miscommunication problem, but the solution would have been to to call the attention of the people responsible on this, and ask for a reformulation of the text.
    > Nobody in Europe really had a way to foresee such a gross misunderstanding.
    >
    > Vale,
    > Livia
    >
    > >
    > > Salvete,
    > >
    > > Instead of slinging mud back and forth and insulting each other, I think it's more reasonable to first of all recognize that there obviously was some confusion over the MMP aims. How did this come about?
    > >
    > > Now, since this is a very long post I will give you the abstract in case you don't want to read the rest: the MMP website description is in tension with the actual conservation work being done on the Palatine hill which can reasonably lead to confusion. Whether this tension is sufficient to constitute "fraud" I cannot say. OK, now here we go...
    > >
    > > When it comes to saving archaeological sites the normal keyword is "conservation" although "restoration" is used as well when some type of rebuilding is possible or desired. Often rebuilding, even partial, is not possible, but let's not pretend that it can't be done. Look at the wording of this news update: http://www.archaeology.org/online/news/acropolis.html . They use the word "restoration" for what is happening on the acropolis because, in fact, what is happening there is extensive rebuilding. Where stones are missing new ones are being fabricated, etc.
    > >
    > > This article on the work being done on the temple of Apollo Epikourios uses both terms: http://www.archaeology.org/0009/newsbriefs/monument.html . It describes the overall project as "restoration" but when detailing what will actually be done, clarifies that it will be conservation work.
    > >
    > > Finally, in describing the work being done at Sagalassos (http://www.archaeology.org/interactive/sagalassos/field07/index.html), both terms are used together "Conservation & Restoration". If you read the three short notes in this section of the website, you will find that both types of work are being engaged in, conservation and partial rebuilding (restoration).
    > >
    > > Finally, let us look at the MMP page and the Giavarini, Pensabene, et al. article that Complutensis linked for us yesterday. Under "Project" the website explains:
    > >
    > > "In 2002 the members of the international association Nova Roma Inc. decided to start a project that could boost and improve the relationship between this cultural association and the real world. It was decided to further the correct restoration and care of the Temple of Magna Mater on the Palatine Hill in Rome."
    > >
    > > Under the "Status" section:
    > >
    > > "The area is nowadays not reachable by the tourist because of the lack of funds for a complete restoration, that is going on very slowly.
    > > Prof. Patrizio Pensabene of the University of Rome "La Sapienza", Facoltà di Lettere e Filosofia, is the coordinator and chief of all the restoration works done in that area of the Palatine Hill..."
    > >
    > > Now turning to the Giavarini, Pensabene, et al. article, a careful reading makes it quite clear what their work will entail. Section three of the paper (p. 6) clearly labels the work "Conservation." What is described is primarily work to save the site from further deterioration or possible collapse. Part of this will involve work on some sewage ducts which will be "restored and used again." The upper parts will be "filled with light material to restore a flat roof on the top; the roof will be protected with waterproofing material and equipped with draining systems." Also, "a series of partial re-constructions or protective small substructions are also under study." However, it goes on to state that the current effort is to save the site from "possible collapses of the structures and further decay". Finally, the mention of "restoration works" in the last sentence clearly refers to the previous sentence and is not a description of the entire project.
    > >
    > > So, to the extent that there currently is "restoration" it is to control erosion by rainwater. Future, small efforts at "restoration" are under study. The overall effort at the moment is, however, "conservation." This is in tension with how the MMP website describes this project. The website says "complete restoration" and describes the current archaeological work as "restoration works."
    > >
    > > Now, on the "project" page the MMP site does use the phrase "the correct restoration and care". I think what the author(s) of this page intended to say was "conservation and restoration". Unfortunately, on the "status" page the emphasis is wholly on "restoration" which misrepresents the current work being done on the Palatine hill.
    > >
    > > What happened here? I suspect it was bad editing and writing. Whoever wrote the MMP content clearly was not familiar with the normal language of conservation and restoration work in archaeological articles. Part of this may have been because the author was not a native speaker of English (various style issues give this away). Another factor may have been an impulse towards sensationalization and exaggeration in order to get more donors.
    > >
    > > I'm not sure if the tension between the website descriptions and the actual work being done on the Palatine hill is sufficient to constitute fraud, but it can certainly be misleading, so I think the back and forth insults over whether someone could have intelligently divined the actual conservation work from the MMP website content should stop.
    > >
    > > Valete,
    > >
    > > Gualterus
    > >
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63468 From: Gaius Popillius Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Resignation

    Salvete Senatores et Quirites,

     

    I hereby resign my positions as Senator, Censor, and Lictor in Nova Roma.

     

    I also resign from the Board of Directors and as Board Secretary of Nova Roma, Inc.

     

    I resign my citizenship in Nova Roma and that of my minor daughter, Alexandra Popillia.

     

    Valete,

     

    Gaius Popillius Laenas / Keith Sterne

    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63469 From: Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: Resignation
    In tristitia observens, vale
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63470 From: Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Longevity in Nova Roma. . .
    Avete omnes;

    May That Which Is Holy bless and keep each of you as you have earned.

    In July, 1998 I became the 78th Citizen of the fledgling organization
    known then and now as Nova Roma.

    Good Gods, the evolutions, revolutions and gyrations we have undergone since.

    How many have been here as long or longer than me, without a break?

    If it is less than half, we have gone horribly wrong.

    We have many former Citizens whose absence we should mourn.

    We have many current Citizens whose presence we should mourn.

    --
    In fide et cogitatio
    Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator
    Civis circa Kalends Quintilis MMDCCLI a.u.c.
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63471 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: News - Rome / Ostia: Bertolaso resigns as Archaeological Commissione
    In a message dated 4/18/2009 6:35:55 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, SFP55 writes:
    Giudo Bertolaso, Italy's Director of Civil Protection Resigns as  Extraordinary - Archaeological Commissioner of Rome & Ostia.
     
    Rome (April 18) - Guido Bertolaso, announced that he would resign as the Extraordinary - Archaeological Commissioner  for Rome & Ostia, a position he was appointed too roughly a month ago, on March 17, 2009, by Sandro Bondi, Italy's Minstry of Culture.
     
    Note: The initial annoucement by Min. Bondi in early Feb. 2009, appointing Guido Bertolaso as Extraordinary - Commissioner for the archaeological areas of Rome and Ostia, had aroused a great deal of controverey, and anger among the Italian Archaeologists responsible for the Archaeological Area of Rome and Ostia, as well as the archaeological staff of these area's closing the archaeological sites & museums in protest, including an international online petitions signed with several thousand signatures from Italian & Interternational scholars, students and other persons opposing Min. Bondi's decision.
     
     


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    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63472 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: Resignation
    Q. Poplicola C. Laenati amicissimo suo SPVD

    Salve, Laenas, or should I say Keith now. I'm very sorry that my plea could
    not keep you here. I hate to see you go, but hopefully we can still have
    that lunch soon, yeah?

    --------------------------------------------------
    From: "Gaius Popillius" <gaiuspopillius@...>
    Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 8:43 PM
    To: "SenatusRomanus@yahoogroups. com" <SenatusRomanus@yahoogroups.com>;
    <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
    Subject: [Nova-Roma] Resignation

    > Salvete Senatores et Quirites,
    >
    >
    >
    > I hereby resign my positions as Senator, Censor, and Lictor in Nova Roma.
    >
    >
    >
    > I also resign from the Board of Directors and as Board Secretary of Nova
    > Roma, Inc.
    >
    >
    >
    > I resign my citizenship in Nova Roma and that of my minor daughter,
    > Alexandra Popillia.
    >
    >
    >
    > Valete,
    >
    >
    >
    > Gaius Popillius Laenas / Keith Sterne
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63474 From: S Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Main List Post #63464. . .
    . . .which was deleted for no cause by one of our Praetors.

    I warned you. - Venator

    Gaius Equitius Cato <mlcinnyc@...>
    reply-to: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    to : Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
    date : Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 17:58
    subject : [Nova-Roma] Re: Title of a topic ('Valorization, a Communist concept')
    mailing list: <Nova-Roma.yahoogroups.com> Filter messages from this mailing list
    mailed-by returns.groups.yahoo.com
    signed-by yahoogroups.com

    Posted: 17:58 PM (3 hours ago)

    Reply
    Cato Memmio Albucio sal.

    Salve!

    Albucius, I honestly think that your heart is in the right place here, but the concept of vetting topics for their subject lines based solely on different translations or usage in different languages is utterly impossible given the international scope of our citizenry.

    This is waaaaay over the edge censorship-wise.

    I am *not* making this a personality issue, and I reject any attempt by anyone to make it one. As I said, I truly understand the thought behind this reasoning, but I must object in the strongest terms possible.

    Your own edictum de sermone makes no mention whatsoever of this kind of thing, and it violates both the spirit and the letter of the Constitutional right to free speech. If you moderate based on the subject line, you are violating the rights of our citizens.

    Vale,

    Cato
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63475 From: Colin Brodd Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Message from Gaius Equitius Cato
    C. Tullius Valerianus Germanicus omnibus in foro S.P.D.
     
    Salvete, cives! As C. Equitius Cato is unable to post this here himself at this time, I am doing him the favor of passing on his message to the forum of the main list:
    _________________________________________________________________________________________________________
     
    Cato omnibus in foro SPD

    Salvete.

    In accordance with the laws of the res publica and the governing act of the corporation, I am officially calling for a vote of the membership of this corporation for the removal of the consuls and praetors from office.

    If the tribunes refuse to honor such a call, the State of Maine can begin judicial proceedings against the corporation to force the corporation to allow the members to vote.

    I believe an excellent case will be made for removal for cause, but under the governing act of the corporation, officers may be removed with or withOUT cause.

    Valete,

    Cato

    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63476 From: Maior Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Cerealia dies nefastus publicus
    M. Hortensia Quiritibus spd;
    it is Sunday in Rome, the feria of Dea Ceres, patron of the plebs, ensurer of
    good harvests. All officials will be celebrating, I too.

    May our fields be fertile,
    our storehouses high,
    Diva Ceres be propitious to us

    M. Hortensia Maior
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63477 From: Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator Date: 2009-04-18
    Subject: Re: Cerealia dies nefastus publicus
    Mao, thanks for reminding me;

    On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 9:48 PM, Maior wrote:
    >
    >[excision of nothing worthy]

    As a long time Citizen of Nova Roma, who is not a practitioner of the
    Religio, I call upon the Collegium Pontificum (sic) to expel all those
    who are not fully and SOLELY dedicated to the Palatine Trio and their
    closest, Roman, Holy compatriots from within their ranks.

    I also call upon those who pretend to the ahistorical practices as
    promulgated by the charlatans known as Raven Grimassi and Charles G.
    Leland; tender your resignations, also.

    My personal beliefs are ancient, but the practices are modern
    reconstructions based on reliable scholarship. My faithway revival is
    honestly recent, but based on elder ways as shown by lore, history and
    archaeological evidences.

    Venator, who is now awake and hunting again
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63478 From: Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator Date: 2009-04-19
    Subject: Mao expressing concern for Sulla - OLD post - Thu Dec 4, 2003
    Avete Omnes;

    I repeat, no one who is not solely, fully and totally devoted to the
    Religio Romana should be in the Collegium Pontificum (sic).

    Venii

    ---------------------------------

    Re: A request to Romans

    Salve Senator Q. Fabi Maxime;

    I have posted a prayer for my frater over at the Jewish Sodalitas; any
    from the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) will be welcome...vale
    Pomponia Fabia Vera Attica (editor's note: this is Rory Kirshner,
    presently calling herself M. Hortensia Maior, referring to Sulla as
    her brother.)

    -------
    Venii
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63479 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2009-04-19
    Subject: Re: Conservation and Restoration
    In a message dated 4/18/2009 10:41:21 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, christer.edling@... writes:
    We do not have the "whole-hearted" respect of the international
    historical and archeological elit. If we could achieve such respect we
    thought Nova Roma would have much better chances of growing and
    attracting intelligent and knowledgeable discussions. Which in its
    turn would attract more citizens and probably other even more
    productive project, this should be an aim worthy as a goal.

    The sad fact is that what goes on on our ML isn't directly promoting
    such a serious and productive enviroment. Because of that I can only
    commend the tone and approach of your article. I even think it goes a
    good way to reach an acceptable common "truth" about what has happened
    with the project. Assuming bad faith from the main parts in this
    discussion will not do that. If such an achievement could be reached
    we could soon fix this problem and move forward without letting
    oneissue tak al our time.

     
    And Senator that was a noble goal.   But the precise reason we have no respect from the Getty, or Northwestern, or SDSU, Oxford, Cambridge et al, is the fact is when we find a problem instead of fixing it, we induldge in name calling, bite biting  and threats.  How on earth can a higher institution take us seriously?
     
    Once Iulius shut down the MMP site using the imperium given to him through the college of lictors from the People of NR, that was it.
     
    Now it was up to the Senate to devise a plan of action.
    This plan would consist of three things.
    1. Return the money donated by all donators.  This includes the dues money NR contributed.
    2. Determine if the Senate, the controller of the NR fiances, wishes to continue the project.  
    3. If they do, revise the web site to say that there is no true restoration planned, rather the money
    will be used to conserve the site from further natural ravages, and detail those procedures.
     
    Reopen the website, with the new goal prominently displayed. We do not want to mislead people, their money would clearly be going to the conservation of the Temple.  Don't even mention restoration. 
     
    Then and only then, perhaps higher institutions might respect that.   We found a problem.  Corrected it in a timely matter.   
     
    Ball is in your court.
     
    Q. Fabius Maximus
     


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    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63480 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2009-04-19
    Subject: (no subject)
    Cato omnibus in foro SPD

    Salvete.

    If the post I directed at the praetor Albucius is not returned to this list within the next 30 minutes, I will begin proceedings to have officers of this corporation removed in accordance with the governing act of this corporation.

    If I am not removed from moderation in accordance with the Constitution of the res publica within the next 10 minutes, I will begin proceedings to have officers of this corporation removed in accordance with the governing act of this corporation.

    Valete,

    Cato
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63481 From: Publius Memmius Albucius Date: 2009-04-19
    Subject: Day off - nefastus publicus
    Catoni sen. omnibusque s.d.

    Sorry for the silence. Normally the praetura is closed today: this is a "nefastus publicus" day, for everybody (see our calendar pls).

    I will be at your disposal tomorrow.

    Have a good day, and you all.

    Vale,


    P. Memmius Albucius
    praetor



    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Equitius Cato" <mlcinnyc@...> wrote:
    >
    > Cato omnibus in foro SPD
    >
    > Salvete.
    >
    > If the post I directed at the praetor Albucius is not returned to this list within the next 30 minutes, I will begin proceedings to have officers of this corporation removed in accordance with the governing act of this corporation.
    >
    > If I am not removed from moderation in accordance with the Constitution of the res publica within the next 10 minutes, I will begin proceedings to have officers of this corporation removed in accordance with the governing act of this corporation.
    >
    > Valete,
    >
    > Cato
    >
    Group: Nova-Roma Message: 63482 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2009-04-19
    Subject: Re: Day off - nefastus publicus
    LOL. Putting us on moderation then constitutes an act. Therefore you are in direct violation of your own religious observance!

    Why can't you remove people from moderated status? What did I or Q. Fabius or anyone else do to deserve it?

    --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Publius Memmius Albucius" <albucius_aoe@...> wrote:
    >
    > Catoni sen. omnibusque s.d.
    >
    > Sorry for the silence. Normally the praetura is closed today: this is a "nefastus publicus" day, for everybody (see our calendar pls).
    >
    > I will be at your disposal tomorrow.
    >
    > Have a good day, and you all.
    >
    > Vale,
    >
    >
    > P. Memmius Albucius
    > praetor
    >
    >
    >
    > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Equitius Cato" <mlcinnyc@> wrote:
    > >
    > > Cato omnibus in foro SPD
    > >
    > > Salvete.
    > >
    > > If the post I directed at the praetor Albucius is not returned to this list within the next 30 minutes, I will begin proceedings to have officers of this corporation removed in accordance with the governing act of this corporation.
    > >
    > > If I am not removed from moderation in accordance with the Constitution of the res publica within the next 10 minutes, I will begin proceedings to have officers of this corporation removed in accordance with the governing act of this corporation.
    > >
    > > Valete,
    > >
    > > Cato
    > >
    >