Cato Agricolae Graecae SPD

Salvete.

True enough, there is a conditional applied and a conditional is hard to argue with.

I take offense at words like "I would have to conclude that the Jesus of the Gospels is pure myth", and "Christianity has become, IMHO, a religion of ignorance" coming from the religious leader of the Respublica's State cultus while at the same time he argues in favor of striking from our Constitution the one phrase that actually shows tolerance towards non-practitioners who want to serve as magistrates or in the Senate.

It's like putting someone who says "I really don't see the purpose of having a dog or a cat as a pet" in charge of making pet adoption rules at a chapter of the ASPCA.

Valete,

Cato

Salve Agricola,

Yes, point taken on the "if"; however, it seems to me he was reacting to more than a conditional clause; or, at least, more seemed to be at stake. I admit that I didn't read the debate until you started this thread, but looking back at Maior's post, I see a more serious claim than just a generic "if Jesus existed..." statement.

Aside from the parallelomania arguments, Maior asserts that Apollonius of Tyana was certainly a real person. Well, Philostratus' biography of Apollonius is separated by a greater time span than the Gospels are from Jesus (3rd century from 1st century, versus about 50-70 years for the gospels from Jesus); moreover, there actually is an academic debate over whether Apollonius really existed. I recommend the short discussion of the issue (and copious footnotes) in Reimer, _Miracle and Magic: A Study in the Acts of the Apostles and the Life of Apollonius of Tyana_ (JSNTSupp. 235) 19-23, which in general is an excellent monograph.

There are other things I could point to, but I want to keep this post short. Altogether, it seems to me Maior's post made some bold statements that reflected a particular bias that deserved a skeptical response. In this light, I don't think Cato's response was an overreaction. At the same time, since he is party to some strong biases on the subject as well, I can see why his easy dismissal of the "Jesus Myth" position may not be convincing at first blush.

Vale,

Gualterus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "M. Lucretius Agricola" <marcus.lucretius@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Graece,
>
> I didn't say he was wrong, just not exactly correct, and not to put too fine a point on it, not absolutely correct enough to take issue with someone saying "If...", particularly when the "if" wasn't the main point. The majority in the field may accept something as a given, or at least a working proposition, but that does not exclude doubt or issues of, for example, one man versus several. Looking at the textual issues I tend to see a central figure around which there was a lot of elaboration, but this isn't what I call one of my main concerns, nor is it the point.
>
> When it becomes reasonable to object to an "if" (and I mean in history in general) is an interesting thing, and since there is so much judgment and interpretation (again, in general) there is likely to be a grey area in which people disagree. And then there are hot button issues where the disagreement can be strong. I didn't think the language used to object to Maior's "if" was needed. We of all communities should be used to people saying "if".
>
> vale
>
> Agricola
>
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gualterus_graecus" <waltms1@> wrote:
> >
> > Salve,
> >
> > I have to say that Cato is correct. The "Jesus Myth" position is long dead within the field of biblical studies. If you look at the bib list on the page you cited, it contains only one academic journal citation--and that is one outside biblical studies (where are the JBL, JSNT, JSOT, NTS, Biblica etc references?), and numerous books by people not only outside biblical studies (as in, not having a degree in related to the field), but even Earl Doherty, who not only barely has any credentials (merely a BA), but his scholarship is a pitiful wreck. He's somewhat of a joke among academics. The question is not even a "debate" in the field.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Gualterus
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "M. Lucretius Agricola" <marcus.lucretius@> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Equitius Cato" <mlcinnyc@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Cato Fabio Modiano sal.
> > > >
> > > > Salve!
> > > >
> > > > And your surety would be incorrect. The "Jesus Myth" theory has been put to rest for decades by any serious scholarship.
> > >
> > > Agricola Catoni Omnibusque sal.
> > >
> > > This is not exactly true. A nice summary of the debate, including citations within the last decade, is at religioustolerance.org: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcno.htm
> > >
> > > Note that all hinges on textual analysis, so while "Almost everyone believes that Jesus walked the land of Palestine in the 1st century CE." we cannot say that this is proved beyond a shadow of a doubt, and alternative interpretations of the texts we have are possible. Therefore the use of the conditional may not be the majority preference, but it is not insupportable.
> > >
> > > vale et valete
> > >
> >
>

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Equitius Cato" <mlcinnyc@...> wrote:

>
> Cato Agricolae Graecae SPD
>
> Salvete.
>
> True enough, there is a conditional applied and a conditional is hard to argue with.
>

Your message replied to one of Maior's in the thread, and it didn't quote any message at all, so I assumed you were responding to the message that yours followed, and I tried to link them up. I'm sorry if it was something else intended.

Agricola

Thank you for the thoughtful reply, included below, and especially for the citation to Reimer.

The main thing I would like to get across is that we in Nova Roma live in a world of "if", except of course when we live in a world of faith, which permits no "if". Many of us live in both worlds, at varying times, and we have to, or at least should, navigate the crossing, always being mindful of which world we stand in when we speak. If we always assume good faith in these circumstances, even when it is hard to do so, we will shed more light, less heat and profit ourselves and our community more.

I think the phrase "dog and pony show" was used, and I don't think it is proper to characterize anything that has consumed the hours of so many scholars in this way, regardless of how one feels about it. Still, I think that there is nothing left to say on this point and everyone has made themselves clear. In the end I'm glad that it was the opportunity to start this little discussion, which I hope will not be without value for others in this community.

optime vale

Agricola

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gualterus_graecus" <waltms1@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Agricola,
>
> Yes, point taken on the "if"; however, it seems to me he was reacting to more than a conditional clause; or, at least, more seemed to be at stake. I admit that I didn't read the debate until you started this thread, but looking back at Maior's post, I see a more serious claim than just a generic "if Jesus existed..." statement.
>
> Aside from the parallelomania arguments, Maior asserts that Apollonius of Tyana was certainly a real person. Well, Philostratus' biography of Apollonius is separated by a greater time span than the Gospels are from Jesus (3rd century from 1st century, versus about 50-70 years for the gospels from Jesus); moreover, there actually is an academic debate over whether Apollonius really existed. I recommend the short discussion of the issue (and copious footnotes) in Reimer, _Miracle and Magic: A Study in the Acts of the Apostles and the Life of Apollonius of Tyana_ (JSNTSupp. 235) 19-23, which in general is an excellent monograph.
>
> There are other things I could point to, but I want to keep this post short. Altogether, it seems to me Maior's post made some bold statements that reflected a particular bias that deserved a skeptical response. In this light, I don't think Cato's response was an overreaction. At the same time, since he is party to some strong biases on the subject as well, I can see why his easy dismissal of the "Jesus Myth" position may not be convincing at first blush.
>
> Vale,
>
> Gualterus
>

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus M. Lucretio Agricolae salutem dicit

The irony here, at least for me, is that when "scholarship" is used against G. Equitius Cato he will dismiss it -- claiming of course that his faith supersedes any scholarship; however, he is then quick to point of "scholars" to laud to add credence to his own position.  Alright... let us dismiss the "Jesus Myth" and rely upon an historical Jesus.  Then let us look at all available scholarship on Christian origins, which "most scholars" will agree is NOT how Cato wants to portray the origin of Christianity.  You cannot have it both ways.  You cannot have scholarship used to dispell one thing and then ignore it when it advises on another.  Ultimately people will believe what they want to believe, and I'm certainly fine with that, but someone truly interested in scholarship will acknowledge the work being done and respect it.

Vale;

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus

On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 11:30 PM, M. Lucretius Agricola <marcus.lucretius@...> wrote:

Salve Graece,

I didn't say he was wrong, just not exactly correct, and not to put too fine a point on it, not absolutely correct enough to take issue with someone saying "If...", particularly when the "if" wasn't the main point. The majority in the field may accept something as a given, or at least a working proposition, but that does not exclude doubt or issues of, for example, one man versus several. Looking at the textual issues I tend to see a central figure around which there was a lot of elaboration, but this isn't what I call one of my main concerns, nor is it the point.

When it becomes reasonable to object to an "if" (and I mean in history in general) is an interesting thing, and since there is so much judgment and interpretation (again, in general) there is likely to be a grey area in which people disagree. And then there are hot button issues where the disagreement can be strong. I didn't think the language used to object to Maior's "if" was needed. We of all communities should be used to people saying "if".

vale

Agricola

CN. LENTVLVS CVSTOS: QVIRITIBVS: SAL.:

Avete, Novi Romani Qurites!

I have waited to this auspiscious day of the Kalends of June to take my oath of office.

I pronounced the oath aloud in three languages:


- LATIN VERSION

Ego, Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus (Attila Gonda), hac re ipsa decus Novae Romae me defensurum, et semper pro populo senatuque Novae Romae acturum esse sollemniter IVRO.

Ego, Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus, officio Custodis Novae Romae accepto, deos deasque Romae in omnibus meae vitae publicae temporibus culturum, et virtutes Romanas publica privataque vita me persecuturum esse IVRO.

Ego, Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus, Religioni Romanae me fauturum et eam defensurum, et numquam contra eius statum publicum me acturum esse, ne quid detrimenti capiat IVRO.

Ego, Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus, officiis muneris Custodis me quam optime functurum esse praeterea IVRO.

Meo civis Novae Romae honore, coram deis deabusque populi Romani, et voluntate favoreque eorum, ego munus Custodis, una cum iuribus, privilegiis, muneribus et officiis comitantibus ACCIPIO.


- ENGLISH VERSION:

I, Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus (Attila Gonda) do hereby solemnly swear to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

I, Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus swear to uphold and defend the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to act in a way that would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus swear to protect and defend the Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus further swear to fulfill the obligations and responsibilities of the office of Custos to the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do I accept the position of Custos and all the rights, privileges, obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.


- HUNGARIAN VERSION

Én, Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus (Gonda Attila), ezennel ünnepélyesen esküszöm,hogy Nova Roma becsületét megvédelmezem, és mindenkor a szenátus és Nova Roma népének érdekében cselekszem.

Én, Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus, elfogadván hivatalomat esküszöm, hogy Róma isteneit és istennõit minden közéleti tevékenységem során tisztelettel fogom illetni, és követni fogom a római erényeket mind a magán, mind a közösségi életben.

Én, Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus, esküszöm, hogy a Római Vallást óvni és védelmezni fogom, és nyílvánosan sohasem foglalok el vele ellentétes álláspontot, hogy kárt ne szenvedjen.

Én, Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus, esküszöm továbbá, hogy a Custosi hivatallal járó feladataimat a lehetõ legjobb képességeim szerint látom el.

Én, nova római polgárjogomnál fogva a római nép istenei és istennõi elõtt és azok akarata és tetszése szerint a Custosi hivatalt a velejáró összes joggal, kiváltsággal, kötelezettséggel és feladattal együtt elfogadom.




Valete, Novi Romani Quirites!


Cn. Cornelius Lentulus
CVSTOS NOVAE ROMAE

M. Moravius Piscinus cultoribus Deorum et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit: Di vos semper servent.

Hodie est Kalendae Fabariae; haec dies nefastus est: DIE QUINTI TE KALO, IUNO COVELLA : Iunoni Monetae in arce; Fabarici circenses missus.

Fabariae

The name for today's date, the Kalendae Fabariae, comes not from a festival, but instead from an ancient tradition. On this day one is to eat a dish prepared from bean-meal and bacon fat (Macrobius, Saturnalia 1.12.22 and 31). This meal was dedicated to the Goddess Carna and was intended to preserve one's good health (Pliny H. N. 18.117). As it happens, this was the time of year when beans were harvested in Central Italy (Columella, 11.2.20).

"Prayers are offered to this Goddess, for the good preservation of liver, heart, and the other internal organs of our bodies. Her sacrifices are bean-meal and lard, because this is the best food for the nourishment of the body." ~ Macrobius, Saturnalia 1.12.32


Today celebrates the dedication of five temples at Rome:

AUC 358 / 395 BCE: Temple of Juno Regina, brought from Veii, dedicated on the Aventine Hill.


AUC 365 / 388 BCE: Temple of Mars dedicated in the Campus Martius.

"Father Mars, You who were not at all deaf to my vows, these men, survivors of the battle, dedicate to You the choicest armour of our victory trophies." ~ Silius Italicus Punica 10.553-54

"This same day is a festival of Mars, whose temple is seen from beyond the Portus Capena." ~Ovidius Naso, Fasti 6.191


AUC 409 / 344 BCE: Temple of Juno Moneta dedicated on the Arx.

"The Dictator (L. Furius Camillus) thought it his duty to secure the help of the Gods, and during the actual fighting he vowed a temple to Juno Moneta. On his victorious return to Rome, he resigned his Dictatorship to discharge his vow. The senate ordered two commissioners to be appointed to carry out the construction of that temple in a style commensurate with the greatness of the Roman people, and a site was marked out in the Citadel where the house of M. Manlius Capitolinus had stood." ~ Titus Livius 7.28


AUC 494 / 259 BCE: Temple of the Tempestes dedicated near the porta Capena.

"You too, Tempests, were considered worthy of a shrine, after our fleet was almost sunk in Corsican waters." ~ Ovidius Naso, Fasti 6.193

"Thanks be to Neptunus and the Tempestates, for returning me safe home again, my venture a success!" ~ Plautus, Stichus 402


AUC 733 / 20 BCE: Temple of Mars Ultor dedicated in the Forum Augusti.

"If, Father, my war is authorized by Vesta's priestess, and whenever I prepare to take divine vengeance, Mars, be by my side and satiate cold steel with guilt's blood, and lend Your favour to the better side. If I am victorious for You I'll build a shrine and call You Ultor, Mars the Avenger." ~ Ovid Fasti 5.573-77


AUC 736 / 17 BCE: Ludi Saeculares led by Augustus and Agrippa

Acta Sacrorum Saecularium

A proclamation was sent out asking the populace of Rome to participate. "All Free Men, you are bid to pray and fast. On the Capitolium, before the Temple of Jupiter, and on the Aventine before the temple of Diana (join with) the crowded populace present and for the Gods gather sweet-smelling herbs to offer."

Those who were 25 or older were to convene on the Capitolium. From among those who were younger, two choruses were selected of male and female voices to sing a hymn specially composed for the occasion by Horace. As some rites of the Ludi Saeculares were reserved for women to conduct, a second decree was issued on the Kalendae Fabariae:

"And the edict was issued: The quindecimviri sacris faciundis decree: Since, insofar as it accords with proper custom, and in like manner has been observed in numerous precedents, whenever there has been a rightful cause for public celebration, it has been decided that the mourning of women should be suspended; and since it seems that it is appropriate both to the honor of the gods and to the remembrance of their worship that that should apply to the time of solemn rites and games and that it should be scrupulously observed –therefore we have decided that it is incumbent on us to issue to women a decree by edict, that they should suspend mourning." ~ CIL 6.32323 Lines 110b-14


The Ludi Saeculares began soon after Midnight with a nighttime sacrifice to the Moirai in the Campus Martius

"On the following night, on the Campus Martius, next to the Tiber, [the emperor Caesar Augustus sacrificed] according to the Greek rite [nine female lambs to the divine Moirai (Fates) as whole burnt offering; and by the same rite he sacrificed nine female goats as a whole burnt offerings and spoke the following prayer: "Moirai, as it is prescribed for you in the Sibylline books - and for this reason may good fortune attend the Roman people, the Quirites – let sacrifice be made to you with nine female lambs and nine female goats burnt whole for you. I beg you and pray that you may increase the power and majesty of the Roman people, the Quirites, in war and peace; and that the Latins may always be obedient; and that you may grant eternal safety, victory and health to the Roman people, the Quirites; and that you may protect the Roman people, the Quirites, and the legions of the Roman people, the Quirites; and that you may keep safe and make greater the state of the Roman people, the Quirites, and that you may be favorable and propitious to the Roman people], the Quirites, to the collegium of the quindecimviri, to me, to my house, to my household; and that you may accept this sacrifice of nine female lambs and nine female goats, to be burnt whole for you in sacrifice. For these reasons be honoured with the sacrifice of this female lamb, become favourable and propitious to the Roman people, the Quirites, to the collegium of the quindecimviri, to myself, to my house, to my household.

"When the sacrifice was completed, games were celebrated by night on a stage, without the additional construction of a theatre and without the erection of seating. One hundred and ten matrons, who had been designated by decree of the quindecimviri, held sellisternia with two seats set out for Juno and Diana.

"Then the games were celebrated with plays in Latin on a wooden theatre which had been erected on the Campus Martius next to the Tiber, and in the same manner women who were mistresses of households held sellisternia, and the games which had begun to take place at night were not interrupted." ~ CIL 6.32323 Lines 90-110

"Juno Regina, we, one hundred and ten the mothers of the families of the people of Rome, the Quirites, pray You allow what is now beneficial to the people of Rome, the Quirites, may then be made better, and we brides implore You to aid and increase the sovereign power and majesty of the people of Rome, the Quirites, in war and peace, and always to watch over the fame of the Latins. And may You favor the people of Rome, the Quirites, and the legions of the people of Rome, the Quirites, and preserve the republic of the people of Rome, the Quirites, and may You willingly favor and prosper us, our homes, and our families. This is what the one hundred and ten mothers of the families of the people of Rome, the Quirites, we brides of our families, pray, entreat, and implore You to grant." ~ CIL 6.32329. 10 sqq. Acta Sacrorum Saecularium addition

"On the Kalends of June, on the Capitoline Hill, the emperor Caesar Augustus sacrificed a bull to Jupiter Optimus Maximus burnt whole for him, and in the same place Marcus Agrippa sacrificed a second. They spoke a prayer, as follows: "Jupiter Optimus Maximus, as it is prescribed for you in those books –and for this [reason] may good fortune attend the Roman people, the Quirites – let sacrifice be made to you with this fine bull. I beg you and pray." The rest as above. At the sacred vessel were Caesar, Agrippa, Scaevola, Sentius, Lollius, Asinius Gallus, and Rabilis (all the members of the quindecimviri).

"Then the games were celebrated with plays in Latin on a wooden theatre which had been erected on the Campus Martius next to the Tiber, and in the same manner women who were mistresses of households held sellisternia, and the games which had begun to take place at night were not interrupted.

"Then by night, next to the Tiber, the emperor Caesar Augustus made sacrifice to the divine Ilythiae with nine cakes, nine popana, nine phthoes; he spoke the following prayer: "Ilythia, as it is prescribed for you in those books –and for this reason [may every good fortune attend] the Roman people, the Quirites – let sacrifice be made to you with nine popana, nine cakes, nine phthoes. I beg and pray. The rest as above." ~ CIL 6.32323 Lines 103-110; 115-118

"Ilythia. You who are compassionate towards women, who suffer with great labor pains, their bodies strained in slow birth of the hidden child, gently attend her, Ilythia, and favor my prayers." ~ Ovidius Naso, Amores II.14.19-24


AUC 790 / 37 CE: Emperor Caligula gives the people a congiarium

AUC 820 / 67 CE: Flavius Vespasianus captures Jotapata

AUC 946 / 193 CE: Eemperor Didius Julianus deposed; Septimius Severus recognized as Emperor at Rome


Our thought for today is from Democritus, the Golden Sayings 64:

"The friendship of one wise man is better than that of every fool."

Cato Fabio Modiano Lucretio Agricolae Gualtero Graecae SPD

Salvete.

Agricola struck an important note, and I think that Modianus actually hit on something in the midst of his dismissal. There may very well be two worlds, the world of "if" and the world of "faith". They would apply to all religious systems, as ultimately any religious belief requires faith - if not in the particulars then at least in the generalities.

Cicero didn't have "faith" in the religio per se, yet he saw the ultimate benefit of the religio in regards to the State, so maybe his "faith" consisted of no more than understanding the importance of public order and sense of well-being for the whole Roman people, and that stood in for religious "faith". His world of "if" was that auguries were basically useless, but his world of "faith" saw them as necessary.

As far as my private cultus goes, I certainly acknowledge that historical development occurred in the outward manifestations of the faith. The "origin" of Christianity is Christ. And Christ is God. Not a World Soul or a Luminous Essence or Great Teacher or any one of any number of interesting but ultimately inadequate terms. The faith itself has always been the same because it cannot change. How we *recognized* it or put it into human terms is quite subject to convolution and development as it grew to understand it and its ramifications. So yes, the outward expression of the cultus developed and changed but the core was, and is, the same.

Scholarship and faith are not enemies; if what my private cultus teaches is true they cannot possibly be, since there is a single source for both - as there is a single source for everything, seen and unseen.

Again, what troubles me is not just the ideas, but that they are promulgated by someone who leads the State cult and advocates a stripping of the sole source of definable, qualitative tolerance within the Respublica. It may be redundant to say that the religio is tolerant, just as it may be to say that Christianity teaches love; we know only too well the results that have come from blind acceptance of either of these tenets.

Valete,

Cato

C. Petronius M. Moravio Piscino Pontifici Maximo et omnibus s.p.d.,

> Hodie est Kalendae Fabariae;

Et natalis meus.

(...)

> Today celebrates the dedication of five temples at Rome:

> AUC 358 / 395 BCE: Temple of Juno Regina, brought from Veii, dedicated on the Aventine Hill.(...)
> AUC 365 / 388 BCE: Temple of Mars dedicated in the Campus Martius.

(...)

> AUC 409 / 344 BCE: Temple of Juno Moneta dedicated on the Arx.

(...)

> AUC 494 / 259 BCE: Temple of the Tempestes dedicated near the porta Capena.

(...)

> AUC 733 / 20 BCE: Temple of Mars Ultor dedicated in the Forum Augusti.

(...)
--------

> AUC 736 / 17 BCE: Ludi Saeculares led by Augustus and Agrippa.

(...)

> AUC 790 / 37 CE: Emperor Caligula gives the people a congiarium

(...)

> AUC 820 / 67 CE: Flavius Vespasianus captures Jotapata

(...)

> AUC 946 / 193 CE: Eemperor Didius Julianus deposed; Septimius Severus recognized as Emperor at Rome.

(...)

AUC 2712 / 1959 CE: Birth of C. Petronius Dexter. :o)

"Nupta Jovis potuit dubio dare nomina mensi,
Carnae festa deae datur imae cardinis haec lux,
Lustra, a me nato, Phoebus bis quina cucurrit."
CPD

Vale et valete.
C. Petronius Dexter

What I want to know is, what evidence is there that WE exist?

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "M. Lucretius Agricola" <marcus.lucretius@...> wrote:
>
> Thank you for the thoughtful reply, included below, and especially for the citation to Reimer.
>
> The main thing I would like to get across is that we in Nova Roma live in a world of "if", except of course when we live in a world of faith, which permits no "if". Many of us live in both worlds, at varying times, and we have to, or at least should, navigate the crossing, always being mindful of which world we stand in when we speak. If we always assume good faith in these circumstances, even when it is hard to do so, we will shed more light, less heat and profit ourselves and our community more.
>
> I think the phrase "dog and pony show" was used, and I don't think it is proper to characterize anything that has consumed the hours of so many scholars in this way, regardless of how one feels about it. Still, I think that there is nothing left to say on this point and everyone has made themselves clear. In the end I'm glad that it was the opportunity to start this little discussion, which I hope will not be without value for others in this community.
>
> optime vale
>
> Agricola
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gualterus_graecus" <waltms1@> wrote:
> >
> > Salve Agricola,
> >
> > Yes, point taken on the "if"; however, it seems to me he was reacting to more than a conditional clause; or, at least, more seemed to be at stake. I admit that I didn't read the debate until you started this thread, but looking back at Maior's post, I see a more serious claim than just a generic "if Jesus existed..." statement.
> >
> > Aside from the parallelomania arguments, Maior asserts that Apollonius of Tyana was certainly a real person. Well, Philostratus' biography of Apollonius is separated by a greater time span than the Gospels are from Jesus (3rd century from 1st century, versus about 50-70 years for the gospels from Jesus); moreover, there actually is an academic debate over whether Apollonius really existed. I recommend the short discussion of the issue (and copious footnotes) in Reimer, _Miracle and Magic: A Study in the Acts of the Apostles and the Life of Apollonius of Tyana_ (JSNTSupp. 235) 19-23, which in general is an excellent monograph.
> >
> > There are other things I could point to, but I want to keep this post short. Altogether, it seems to me Maior's post made some bold statements that reflected a particular bias that deserved a skeptical response. In this light, I don't think Cato's response was an overreaction. At the same time, since he is party to some strong biases on the subject as well, I can see why his easy dismissal of the "Jesus Myth" position may not be convincing at first blush.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Gualterus
> >
>

M. Moravius Catoni s. p. d.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Equitius Cato" <mlcinnyc@...> wrote:
<snipped>
>
> The Pontifex Maximus is painting a very pretty picture that will allow the dissolution of the protection guaranteed by the Constitution to some of its citizens. It may be "redundant to say" many things, but the specific wording of Section VI.A ("Magistrates, Senators, and citizens need not be practitioners of the Religio Romana") is nowhere else echoed in our law.
>

Nothing in the proposed amendment requires magistrates to practice the religio Romana. OTOH elsewhere in the Constitution the rights of Citizens to practice whatever faith they choose, or no faith, is already guaranteed. You seem to be making out some issue that does not exist.

Let us look at the current Constitution VI. A: "The Religio Romana, the worship of the Gods and Goddesses of Rome, shall be the official religion of Nova Roma. All magistrates and Senators, as officers of the State, shall be required to publicly show respect for the Religio Romana and the Gods and Goddesses that made Rome great. Magistrates, Senators, and citizens need not be practitioners of the Religio Romana, but may not engage in any activity that intentionally blasphemes or defames the Gods, the Religio Romana, or its practitioners."

The first sentence of the current Constitution is retained in the proposed amendent to VI.A: "The Religio Romana, defined as the traditional worship of the Gods and Goddesses of Rome, shall be the official religion of Nova Roma."

The second sentence of the current Constitution has: "All magistrates and Senators, as officers of the State, shall be required to publicly show respect for the Religio Romana and the Gods and Goddesses that made Rome great."

All magistrates and Senators? The Constitution does not say "on public Nova Roma lists" alone, but everywhere that could be considered public. So under this provision of the current Constitution, and with the current Decretum Pontificum on blasphemy, I suppose that Senator Sulla could be prosecuted for his outragous and lewd remarks that so insulted the Virgo Maxima that you publicly apologized for just having read them?

I have been told that non-practitioners of the religio Romana took that provision of VI. A as a potential threat to their holding office. Indeed, it seems that former pontifices intended just that when they passed what in my opinion was an illegal decretum on blasphemy. That is, IMHO the Collegium Pontificum may define terms that could be used in our courts, but it has no authority to legislate or instruct Praetores on their duties. It is also my opinion that such past attempts to "regulate" had only led to a weakening of the religio Romana in Nova Roma. Policies of the former Pontifices caused many good cultores Deorum to leave Nova Roma for other organizations. As a result Nova Roma lost its prominence on the Internet as a place to instruct others in the practice of our tradition. Instead, sacerdotes of Nova Roma were going to such websites as SVR's to find information on the religio Romana. Cultores Deorum were organizing and incorporating their own temples, something that Nova Roma should have done long ago. While inside Nova Roma the religio Romana was neglected, its sacerdotes holding offices only in name and absent. In short, the institutions of the religio in Nova Roma were politicized and abused for political purposes by a few individuals who sat as though they were the Taliban.

Well, a change has occurred in the Collegium Pontificum. Let us make it clear that a change has been wrought within the Collegium Pontificum itself, and among the cultores in Nova Roma, by removing any implied threat, real or imagined, that might be in the wording of the Constitution. I have enough faith in the tradition of the religio Romana and in its appeal to some that we do not need to regulate how magistrates and Senators should behave towards our tradition in Nova Roma.

So, we come to the last sentence of the current Constitution:
"Magistrates, Senators, and citizens need not be practitioners of the Religio Romana, but may not engage in any activity that intentionally blasphemes or defames the Gods, the Religio Romana, or its practitioners."

You are concerned about only one part of that one sentence, neglecting the other part, or the history of Nova Roma in how it has been abused for political ends. It causes confusion. It causes misunderstanding. It leads to political issues in Nova Roma where contentions over the religio Romana, such as this one, do not allow the religio Romana to evolve into a living religious tradition. And this is so because the two parts of that sentence are seen by most people as dependent on one another. You cannot remove half of that sentence and retain the other. Nor can you retain only part and neglect the other half. Disagree with my policies as Pontifex Maximus, as surely some have and will in the future, but we have set course in the Collegium Pontificum to "depoliticize" the religious institutions of Nova Roma so as to further the growth and develoment of the religio Romana itself. That future will be squarely placed within our religious institutions themselves, and no longer rely on the Comitia to legislate protections and guarantees for the religio Romana, its practitioners, and its sacerdotes, for all that is covered by this single, simply line: "The Religio Romana, defined as the traditional worship of the Gods and Goddesses of Rome, shall be the official religion of Nova Roma."

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus Gaio Equitio Catoni salutem dicit

"The faith itself has always been the same because it cannot change."

This statement is the deciding statement in the differences you and I have in regards to religion/faith.  In my understanding of Roman religion this concept of yours does not work; nor does it work with any religious tradition that is syncretistic.  This line of theological thinking is likely very typical for Orthodox and Catholic theology (in their systematic theology), I've been exploring process theology (based on the philosophy of Whitehead) and find it very refreshing -- which is MUCH more compatible with pluralist environments (such as Nova Roma).

The problem with such an "unchanging" theological position is that the Religio becomes "tokenized," because your version of "truth" is without question and not compatible with the theological understanding of someone who embraces the Gods of Rome.  The Religio becomes an "oh that's nice, let's keep it around."  So while you might be advocating that you support the Religio the question is then do you really?  Really support it?  Let us say, for example, that you came into a large sum of money (millions for example) would you use some of that to finance the construction of a temple?  Would you attend offerings/sacrifice in said temple?  Would you sponsor priests to make offerings/sacrifice in said temple?  This is all rhetorical.  It is easy to sit behind a computer and claim "I support the Religio," and then claim that faith cannot change and is absolute.

Let me throw in a hypothetical.  Religion in the ancient world wasn't "evangelical" in the sense that we have it today; however, there are benefits to being a cultor and it is a good religious tradition to embrace.  If the Collegium Pontificum endorsed proselytizing would it still be easy for you to support the Religio?  I'm not saying we should go door to door like the Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses but actively proclaimed the "Good News" of the Religio Romana in the hopes that people would embrace it; would that be a problem?

Vale;

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus

On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 8:23 AM, Gaius Equitius Cato <mlcinnyc@...> wrote:

Cato Fabio Modiano Lucretio Agricolae Gualtero Graecae SPD

Salvete.

Agricola struck an important note, and I think that Modianus actually hit on something in the midst of his dismissal. There may very well be two worlds, the world of "if" and the world of "faith". They would apply to all religious systems, as ultimately any religious belief requires faith - if not in the particulars then at least in the generalities.

Cicero didn't have "faith" in the religio per se, yet he saw the ultimate benefit of the religio in regards to the State, so maybe his "faith" consisted of no more than understanding the importance of public order and sense of well-being for the whole Roman people, and that stood in for religious "faith". His world of "if" was that auguries were basically useless, but his world of "faith" saw them as necessary.

As far as my private cultus goes, I certainly acknowledge that historical development occurred in the outward manifestations of the faith. The "origin" of Christianity is Christ. And Christ is God. Not a World Soul or a Luminous Essence or Great Teacher or any one of any number of interesting but ultimately inadequate terms. The faith itself has always been the same because it cannot change. How we *recognized* it or put it into human terms is quite subject to convolution and development as it grew to understand it and its ramifications. So yes, the outward expression of the cultus developed and changed but the core was, and is, the same.

Scholarship and faith are not enemies; if what my private cultus teaches is true they cannot possibly be, since there is a single source for both - as there is a single source for everything, seen and unseen.

Again, what troubles me is not just the ideas, but that they are promulgated by someone who leads the State cult and advocates a stripping of the sole source of definable, qualitative tolerance within the Respublica. It may be redundant to say that the religio is tolerant, just as it may be to say that Christianity teaches love; we know only too well the results that have come from blind acceptance of either of these tenets.

Valete,

Cato

Cato Moravio Piscino sal.

Salve.

You wrote:

"Nothing in the proposed amendment requires magistrates to practice the religio Romana. OTOH elsewhere in the Constitution the rights of Citizens to practice whatever faith they choose, or no faith, is already guaranteed."

Nothing else in the Constitution guarantees that magistrates must not be practicers of the religio, only this one sentence. Citizens are free to practice privately as always; this is a diversion.

The clause "Magistrates, Senators, and citizens need not be practitioners of the Religio Romana", if removed, *could* allow senators and magistrates to be removed for *not* being practitioners of the religio Romana.

Your argument about Nova Roma's political history is fine, but has nothing to do with preserving the right of a citizen, if elected magistrate or seated in the Senate to *not* practice the religio. And to blame the non-practitioners for your political fears or your feeling that the College of Pontiffs is unable to function or for the state of the religio itself is nonsense.

If by "de-politicizing" you mean "removing difference of opinion", then you are on the right track, but this does *not* serve the religio or the Respublica. Remember that the religio is an inherent part of the State; the citizens - *all* citizens - have a right to determine the way the State acts.

Vale,

Cato

Cato Fabio Modiano sal.

Salve.

You seem to be forgetting that while *my* faith is absolute for *me*, I do not make any attempt to make it absolute for anyone else. You can believe anything you want, you are completely free to explore your own spirituality. I don't mold my beliefs to whatever the current fancy is to make friends and win political power. It is what it is, and you are free to take it or leave it. But don't then turn and tell me what my faith *should* be because *you* reject Orthodoxy - and orthodoxy - simply because you don't like it for itself.

Yes, there were all kinds of odd ideas floating around for a long time; they all failed because they are not orthodoxy. When a sculptor looks at a piece of marble he knows what he sees within it; there's a lot of extraneous material that gets chipped away but the image is still there, no matter how long it takes to reveal it.

You wrote:

"Would you attend offerings/sacrifice in said temple? Would you sponsor priests to make offerings/sacrifice in said temple? This is all rhetorical."

Not so much rhetorical. I have poured out an offering to Apollo in front of Maior, Marinus, and Scholastica, in fact, at dinner.

You also wrote:

"Let me throw in a hypothetical. Religion in the ancient world wasn't "evangelical" in the sense that we have it today; however, there are benefits to being a cultor and it is a good religious tradition to embrace. If the Collegium Pontificum endorsed proselytizing would it still be easy for you to support the Religio? I'm not saying we should go door to door like the Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses but actively proclaimed the "Good News" of the Religio Romana in the hopes that people would embrace it; would that be a problem?"

Nope. Maybe you *should* be.

Vale,

Cato

Salvete;
this is why we need to all work at being syncretic. If a cultor, anyone wants to put Jesus in his or her lararium and worship him as a man, hero, daemon, god and wants to say so, that is equally as valid in Nova Roma as Cato's views and of equal importance. No one owns the truth - we see many truths and that's a cornerstone of republican roman culture.

It's also fine not to believe Apollonius of Tyana was a historical figure who lived. I believe he did; but everyone, everyone is free to hold and have differing beliefs. That's tolerant broad Roman syncretism.

Finally Cicero, who gets quoted a lot for not 'believing' in the religio, had his deceased daughter Tullia apotheosized: turned into a goddess. He believed that this happened.

so lets go forward together, into a harmonius community. As Piscinus said, and as began with our great PM Fl.Galerius Aurelianus last year, the reformed CP does not boss or threaten anyone.
the essence of Nova Roma is syncretism, tolerance, liberalism, pluralism.
bene valete in pacem deorum
Marca Hortensia Maior


In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Equitius Cato" <mlcinnyc@...> wrote:

>
> Cato Moravio Piscino sal.
>
> Salve.
>
> You wrote:
>
> "Nothing in the proposed amendment requires magistrates to practice the religio Romana. OTOH elsewhere in the Constitution the rights of Citizens to practice whatever faith they choose, or no faith, is already guaranteed."
>
> Nothing else in the Constitution guarantees that magistrates must not be practicers of the religio, only this one sentence. Citizens are free to practice privately as always; this is a diversion.
>
> The clause "Magistrates, Senators, and citizens need not be practitioners of the Religio Romana", if removed, *could* allow senators and magistrates to be removed for *not* being practitioners of the religio Romana.
>
> Your argument about Nova Roma's political history is fine, but has nothing to do with preserving the right of a citizen, if elected magistrate or seated in the Senate to *not* practice the religio. And to blame the non-practitioners for your political fears or your feeling that the College of Pontiffs is unable to function or for the state of the religio itself is nonsense.
>
> If by "de-politicizing" you mean "removing difference of opinion", then you are on the right track, but this does *not* serve the religio or the Respublica. Remember that the religio is an inherent part of the State; the citizens - *all* citizens - have a right to determine the way the State acts.
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>

My cats periodically acknowledge my existence. Therefore, I am.

V

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Cornelius Cicero" <Cicero@...> wrote:
>
> What I want to know is, what evidence is there that WE exist?
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "M. Lucretius Agricola" <marcus.lucretius@> wrote:
> >
> > Thank you for the thoughtful reply, included below, and especially for the citation to Reimer.
> >
> > The main thing I would like to get across is that we in Nova Roma live in a world of "if", except of course when we live in a world of faith, which permits no "if". Many of us live in both worlds, at varying times, and we have to, or at least should, navigate the crossing, always being mindful of which world we stand in when we speak. If we always assume good faith in these circumstances, even when it is hard to do so, we will shed more light, less heat and profit ourselves and our community more.
> >
> > I think the phrase "dog and pony show" was used, and I don't think it is proper to characterize anything that has consumed the hours of so many scholars in this way, regardless of how one feels about it. Still, I think that there is nothing left to say on this point and everyone has made themselves clear. In the end I'm glad that it was the opportunity to start this little discussion, which I hope will not be without value for others in this community.
> >
> > optime vale
> >
> > Agricola
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gualterus_graecus" <waltms1@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Salve Agricola,
> > >
> > > Yes, point taken on the "if"; however, it seems to me he was reacting to more than a conditional clause; or, at least, more seemed to be at stake. I admit that I didn't read the debate until you started this thread, but looking back at Maior's post, I see a more serious claim than just a generic "if Jesus existed..." statement.
> > >
> > > Aside from the parallelomania arguments, Maior asserts that Apollonius of Tyana was certainly a real person. Well, Philostratus' biography of Apollonius is separated by a greater time span than the Gospels are from Jesus (3rd century from 1st century, versus about 50-70 years for the gospels from Jesus); moreover, there actually is an academic debate over whether Apollonius really existed. I recommend the short discussion of the issue (and copious footnotes) in Reimer, _Miracle and Magic: A Study in the Acts of the Apostles and the Life of Apollonius of Tyana_ (JSNTSupp. 235) 19-23, which in general is an excellent monograph.
> > >
> > > There are other things I could point to, but I want to keep this post short. Altogether, it seems to me Maior's post made some bold statements that reflected a particular bias that deserved a skeptical response. In this light, I don't think Cato's response was an overreaction. At the same time, since he is party to some strong biases on the subject as well, I can see why his easy dismissal of the "Jesus Myth" position may not be convincing at first blush.
> > >
> > > Vale,
> > >
> > > Gualterus
> > >
> >
>

There is a covered pavilion on the edge of Centennial Park that is within sight of the Parthenon that would be good for a luncheon or dinner.  However, Nashville is indeed very uncomfortable during the month of August & I cannot understand why the conventus is being scheduled during this time.

Fl. Galerius Aurelianus


-----Original Message-----
From: L Julia Aquila <dis_pensible@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, 28 May 2009 11:49 am
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Conversation: Conventus!

Salve:

Very good way of looking at things; of which I am in full agreement.

Since my father passed away I find myself "praying" to him a lot, and I've offered libations and other offerings to him.  Very Roman.

Vale;

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus

On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 2:02 PM, Maior <rory12001@...> wrote:

Salvete;
this is why we need to all work at being syncretic. If a cultor, anyone wants to put Jesus in his or her lararium and worship him as a man, hero, daemon, god and wants to say so, that is equally as valid in Nova Roma as Cato's views and of equal importance. No one owns the truth - we see many truths and that's a cornerstone of republican roman culture.

It's also fine not to believe Apollonius of Tyana was a historical figure who lived. I believe he did; but everyone, everyone is free to hold and have differing beliefs. That's tolerant broad Roman syncretism.

Finally Cicero, who gets quoted a lot for not 'believing' in the religio, had his deceased daughter Tullia apotheosized: turned into a goddess. He believed that this happened.

so lets go forward together, into a harmonius community. As Piscinus said, and as began with our great PM Fl.Galerius Aurelianus last year, the reformed CP does not boss or threaten anyone.
the essence of Nova Roma is syncretism, tolerance, liberalism, pluralism.
bene valete in pacem deorum
Marca Hortensia Maior

This entire argument is moot.  I do wish Modianus, Cato, and all the rest would quit assaulting a deceased equine.  If Modianus is elected, I know that he will be carefully watched by his opponents in Nova Roma to see that he keeps to the law; providing that the Tribunes are not called upon to void the election.  If Cato is elected, I know that he will be carefully watchedby his opponents in Nova Roma to see that he keeps to the law.

HOWEVER, THE TRIBUNES will have the call on whether any censorial edictum is legal or illegal.  The only thing that the Tribunes cannot really touch is a censorial nota but those cannot be used against a Tribune or magistrate who holds the imperium.

Let us just get past the election.

Fl. Galerius Aurelianus,
Tribunus Plebis


-----Original Message-----
From: David Kling <tau.athanasios@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, 29 May 2009 11:29 am
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Around and around we go...

Fl. Galerius Aurelianus G. Equitio Cato sal.

Actually Sulla had been removed as a Senator during his absence from 2003 to 2008.  He was restored to the Senate by a unilateral action of one Censor.  Technically, Modianus could remove him without consulting with his colleague because our by-laws are a little weak in that direction.. Should Modianus have removed him by a unilateral decision; I would say it was not prudent but I would not say it was strictly illegal.

Sulla was restored by the legal actions of some magistrates who chose what was best for NR rather than risk facing a legal action in the US courts.  However, Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix committed a greater assault on Nova Roma by threatening outside legal action rather than trying to work out the problem within the organization.

I also don't think much of you for going outside of NR to state or federal authorities rather than trying to work out your problems here.  You called for removal of officers for dereliction of duty when you were unable to prove to me that there was any dereliction.

Modianus is correct in comparing both you and Sulla because both of you cannot use communication and compromise instead of the threat of outside forces.

I would prefer neither Modianus or you as Censor but if it comes down to a choice, I would prefer you to be elected because I would like to avoid the possibility of the Tribunes overturning an election.  However, be assured that should you be elected, your magisterial actions over the next 6 months will be closely monitored by the current Tribunes an I hope by the next five Tribunes as well.

Vale.

-----Original Message-----
From: Gaius Equitius Cato <mlcinnyc@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, 29 May 2009 11:55 am
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Around and around we go...

Hell, if the conventus does occur in Nashville, I will pay for Modiane's room and the first bottle of wine for Sulla, Cato, Modianus, and I.  It would be worth it just to see whether or not the world would implode.

Fl. Galerius Aurelianus


-----Original Message-----
From: David Kling <tau.athanasios@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, 29 May 2009 5:26 pm
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Intelligent debate (was Vote)

Salvete!

I'll buy the second bottle, assuming that we all live that long :)

Valete!

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@... wrote:
>
> Hell, if the conventus does occur in Nashville, I will pay for Modiane's room and the first bottle of wine for?Sulla, Cato, Modianus, and I.? It would be worth it just to see whether or not the world would implode.
>
> Fl. Galerius Aurelianus
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Kling <tau.athanasios@...>
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Fri, 29 May 2009 5:26 pm
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Intelligent debate (was Vote)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus Lucio Cornelio Sullae salutem dicit
>
> When is this conventus and where is it located?? As a full time graduate student my disposable income is extremely limited; although, I would certainly like to attend a US conventus.? I would gladly accept an opportunity to meet and have a conversation in the attempt to find some common ground.
>
> Vale;
>
> Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus
>
>
>
> On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 6:19 PM, Robert Woolwine <l_cornelius_sulla@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Ave,
>
> I think many of the challenges that NR sees on a constant basis are the result of cives rarely, if ever, meeting face to face. It's much easier to relate to someone when you have seen their face and heard their voice for yourself.
>
> In the spirit of Concordia and the greater good of Nova Roma I would like to extend an invitation to Modianus to meet at the conventus and go out for a meal and a conversation. At least this will give us a chance to discuss what we have in common, rather than what divides us.
>
> Vale,
>
> Sulla
>

Salve Enodia, et salvete omnes,

Ah but *are* your cats acknowledging your existence, or are they A. Looking
at that little spirit hovering just over your line of sight? B. Paying
extreme attention to the bowl (filled with cat food) you just happen to have
in your hand, or C. are they giving their staff instructions? (any staff
member will do for this, BTW).

Truly, an existential question!

C. Maria Caeca

----- Original Message -----
From: "enodia2002" <walkyr@...>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 2:17 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: A question of scholarship


> My cats periodically acknowledge my existence. Therefore, I am.
>
> V
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Cornelius Cicero" <Cicero@...>
> wrote:
>>
>> What I want to know is, what evidence is there that WE exist?
>>
>> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "M. Lucretius Agricola"
>> <marcus.lucretius@> wrote:
>> >
>> > Thank you for the thoughtful reply, included below, and especially for
>> > the citation to Reimer.
>> >
>> > The main thing I would like to get across is that we in Nova Roma live
>> > in a world of "if", except of course when we live in a world of faith,
>> > which permits no "if". Many of us live in both worlds, at varying
>> > times, and we have to, or at least should, navigate the crossing,
>> > always being mindful of which world we stand in when we speak. If we
>> > always assume good faith in these circumstances, even when it is hard
>> > to do so, we will shed more light, less heat and profit ourselves and
>> > our community more.
>> >
>> > I think the phrase "dog and pony show" was used, and I don't think it
>> > is proper to characterize anything that has consumed the hours of so
>> > many scholars in this way, regardless of how one feels about it. Still,
>> > I think that there is nothing left to say on this point and everyone
>> > has made themselves clear. In the end I'm glad that it was the
>> > opportunity to start this little discussion, which I hope will not be
>> > without value for others in this community.
>> >
>> > optime vale
>> >
>> > Agricola
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gualterus_graecus" <waltms1@> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Salve Agricola,
>> > >
>> > > Yes, point taken on the "if"; however, it seems to me he was reacting
>> > > to more than a conditional clause; or, at least, more seemed to be at
>> > > stake. I admit that I didn't read the debate until you started this
>> > > thread, but looking back at Maior's post, I see a more serious claim
>> > > than just a generic "if Jesus existed..." statement.
>> > >
>> > > Aside from the parallelomania arguments, Maior asserts that
>> > > Apollonius of Tyana was certainly a real person. Well, Philostratus'
>> > > biography of Apollonius is separated by a greater time span than the
>> > > Gospels are from Jesus (3rd century from 1st century, versus about
>> > > 50-70 years for the gospels from Jesus); moreover, there actually is
>> > > an academic debate over whether Apollonius really existed. I
>> > > recommend the short discussion of the issue (and copious footnotes)
>> > > in Reimer, _Miracle and Magic: A Study in the Acts of the Apostles
>> > > and the Life of Apollonius of Tyana_ (JSNTSupp. 235) 19-23, which in
>> > > general is an excellent monograph.
>> > >
>> > > There are other things I could point to, but I want to keep this post
>> > > short. Altogether, it seems to me Maior's post made some bold
>> > > statements that reflected a particular bias that deserved a skeptical
>> > > response. In this light, I don't think Cato's response was an
>> > > overreaction. At the same time, since he is party to some strong
>> > > biases on the subject as well, I can see why his easy dismissal of
>> > > the "Jesus Myth" position may not be convincing at first blush.
>> > >
>> > > Vale,
>> > >
>> > > Gualterus
>> > >
>> >
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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06:09:00

Salvete omnes,
reading about fava beans (which are obstinately called just "beans" by our Pontifex maximus, I suddenly thought of a possible reason why they are so often associated with death and the dead.

The association might be much more concrete than we imagine.

In Sardinia, a genetic disease called favism is quite widespread. It makes the affected person very strongly allergic to fava beans. A fabic person not only cannot eat fava beans, or even be in the same room with them, but they cannot even eat peas which have been grown near fava beans.
For a fabic person, eating fava beans will, quite literally, cause death.

I was wondering if there might have been cases of favism also outside Sardinia in ancient Italy. If so, it might have happened now and then that a person eating fava beans "inexplicably" died, contributing to cement the tie between fava and death.

Optime valete,
Livia

> M. Moravius Piscinus cultoribus Deorum et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit: Di vos semper servent.
>
> Hodie est Kalendae Fabariae; haec dies nefastus est: DIE QUINTI TE KALO, IUNO COVELLA : Iunoni Monetae in arce; Fabarici circenses missus.
>
> Fabariae
>
> The name for today's date, the Kalendae Fabariae, comes not from a festival, but instead from an ancient tradition. On this day one is to eat a dish prepared from bean-meal and bacon fat (Macrobius, Saturnalia 1.12.22 and 31). This meal was dedicated to the Goddess Carna and was intended to preserve one's good health (Pliny H. N. 18.117). As it happens, this was the time of year when beans were harvested in Central Italy (Columella, 11.2.20).
>
> "Prayers are offered to this Goddess, for the good preservation of liver, heart, and the other internal organs of our bodies. Her sacrifices are bean-meal and lard, because this is the best food for the nourishment of the body." ~ Macrobius, Saturnalia 1.12.32
>
>
> Today celebrates the dedication of five temples at Rome:
>
> AUC 358 / 395 BCE: Temple of Juno Regina, brought from Veii, dedicated on the Aventine Hill.
>
>
> AUC 365 / 388 BCE: Temple of Mars dedicated in the Campus Martius.
>
> "Father Mars, You who were not at all deaf to my vows, these men, survivors of the battle, dedicate to You the choicest armour of our victory trophies." ~ Silius Italicus Punica 10.553-54
>
> "This same day is a festival of Mars, whose temple is seen from beyond the Portus Capena." ~Ovidius Naso, Fasti 6.191
>
>
> AUC 409 / 344 BCE: Temple of Juno Moneta dedicated on the Arx.
>
> "The Dictator (L. Furius Camillus) thought it his duty to secure the help of the Gods, and during the actual fighting he vowed a temple to Juno Moneta. On his victorious return to Rome, he resigned his Dictatorship to discharge his vow. The senate ordered two commissioners to be appointed to carry out the construction of that temple in a style commensurate with the greatness of the Roman people, and a site was marked out in the Citadel where the house of M. Manlius Capitolinus had stood." ~ Titus Livius 7.28
>
>
> AUC 494 / 259 BCE: Temple of the Tempestes dedicated near the porta Capena.
>
> "You too, Tempests, were considered worthy of a shrine, after our fleet was almost sunk in Corsican waters." ~ Ovidius Naso, Fasti 6.193
>
> "Thanks be to Neptunus and the Tempestates, for returning me safe home again, my venture a success!" ~ Plautus, Stichus 402
>
>
> AUC 733 / 20 BCE: Temple of Mars Ultor dedicated in the Forum Augusti.
>
> "If, Father, my war is authorized by Vesta's priestess, and whenever I prepare to take divine vengeance, Mars, be by my side and satiate cold steel with guilt's blood, and lend Your favour to the better side. If I am victorious for You I'll build a shrine and call You Ultor, Mars the Avenger." ~ Ovid Fasti 5.573-77
>
>
> AUC 736 / 17 BCE: Ludi Saeculares led by Augustus and Agrippa
>
> Acta Sacrorum Saecularium
>
> A proclamation was sent out asking the populace of Rome to participate. "All Free Men, you are bid to pray and fast. On the Capitolium, before the Temple of Jupiter, and on the Aventine before the temple of Diana (join with) the crowded populace present and for the Gods gather sweet-smelling herbs to offer."
>
> Those who were 25 or older were to convene on the Capitolium. From among those who were younger, two choruses were selected of male and female voices to sing a hymn specially composed for the occasion by Horace. As some rites of the Ludi Saeculares were reserved for women to conduct, a second decree was issued on the Kalendae Fabariae:
>
> "And the edict was issued: The quindecimviri sacris faciundis decree: Since, insofar as it accords with proper custom, and in like manner has been observed in numerous precedents, whenever there has been a rightful cause for public celebration, it has been decided that the mourning of women should be suspended; and since it seems that it is appropriate both to the honor of the gods and to the remembrance of their worship that that should apply to the time of solemn rites and games and that it should be scrupulously observed –therefore we have decided that it is incumbent on us to issue to women a decree by edict, that they should suspend mourning." ~ CIL 6.32323 Lines 110b-14
>
>
> The Ludi Saeculares began soon after Midnight with a nighttime sacrifice to the Moirai in the Campus Martius
>
> "On the following night, on the Campus Martius, next to the Tiber, [the emperor Caesar Augustus sacrificed] according to the Greek rite [nine female lambs to the divine Moirai (Fates) as whole burnt offering; and by the same rite he sacrificed nine female goats as a whole burnt offerings and spoke the following prayer: "Moirai, as it is prescribed for you in the Sibylline books - and for this reason may good fortune attend the Roman people, the Quirites – let sacrifice be made to you with nine female lambs and nine female goats burnt whole for you. I beg you and pray that you may increase the power and majesty of the Roman people, the Quirites, in war and peace; and that the Latins may always be obedient; and that you may grant eternal safety, victory and health to the Roman people, the Quirites; and that you may protect the Roman people, the Quirites, and the legions of the Roman people, the Quirites; and that you may keep safe and make greater the state of the Roman people, the Quirites, and that you may be favorable and propitious to the Roman people], the Quirites, to the collegium of the quindecimviri, to me, to my house, to my household; and that you may accept this sacrifice of nine female lambs and nine female goats, to be burnt whole for you in sacrifice. For these reasons be honoured with the sacrifice of this female lamb, become favourable and propitious to the Roman people, the Quirites, to the collegium of the quindecimviri, to myself, to my house, to my household.
>
> "When the sacrifice was completed, games were celebrated by night on a stage, without the additional construction of a theatre and without the erection of seating. One hundred and ten matrons, who had been designated by decree of the quindecimviri, held sellisternia with two seats set out for Juno and Diana.
>
> "Then the games were celebrated with plays in Latin on a wooden theatre which had been erected on the Campus Martius next to the Tiber, and in the same manner women who were mistresses of households held sellisternia, and the games which had begun to take place at night were not interrupted." ~ CIL 6.32323 Lines 90-110
>
> "Juno Regina, we, one hundred and ten the mothers of the families of the people of Rome, the Quirites, pray You allow what is now beneficial to the people of Rome, the Quirites, may then be made better, and we brides implore You to aid and increase the sovereign power and majesty of the people of Rome, the Quirites, in war and peace, and always to watch over the fame of the Latins. And may You favor the people of Rome, the Quirites, and the legions of the people of Rome, the Quirites, and preserve the republic of the people of Rome, the Quirites, and may You willingly favor and prosper us, our homes, and our families. This is what the one hundred and ten mothers of the families of the people of Rome, the Quirites, we brides of our families, pray, entreat, and implore You to grant." ~ CIL 6.32329. 10 sqq. Acta Sacrorum Saecularium addition
>
> "On the Kalends of June, on the Capitoline Hill, the emperor Caesar Augustus sacrificed a bull to Jupiter Optimus Maximus burnt whole for him, and in the same place Marcus Agrippa sacrificed a second. They spoke a prayer, as follows: "Jupiter Optimus Maximus, as it is prescribed for you in those books –and for this [reason] may good fortune attend the Roman people, the Quirites – let sacrifice be made to you with this fine bull. I beg you and pray." The rest as above. At the sacred vessel were Caesar, Agrippa, Scaevola, Sentius, Lollius, Asinius Gallus, and Rabilis (all the members of the quindecimviri).
>
> "Then the games were celebrated with plays in Latin on a wooden theatre which had been erected on the Campus Martius next to the Tiber, and in the same manner women who were mistresses of households held sellisternia, and the games which had begun to take place at night were not interrupted.
>
> "Then by night, next to the Tiber, the emperor Caesar Augustus made sacrifice to the divine Ilythiae with nine cakes, nine popana, nine phthoes; he spoke the following prayer: "Ilythia, as it is prescribed for you in those books –and for this reason [may every good fortune attend] the Roman people, the Quirites – let sacrifice be made to you with nine popana, nine cakes, nine phthoes. I beg and pray. The rest as above." ~ CIL 6.32323 Lines 103-110; 115-118
>
> "Ilythia. You who are compassionate towards women, who suffer with great labor pains, their bodies strained in slow birth of the hidden child, gently attend her, Ilythia, and favor my prayers." ~ Ovidius Naso, Amores II.14.19-24
>
>
> AUC 790 / 37 CE: Emperor Caligula gives the people a congiarium
>
> AUC 820 / 67 CE: Flavius Vespasianus captures Jotapata
>
> AUC 946 / 193 CE: Eemperor Didius Julianus deposed; Septimius Severus recognized as Emperor at Rome
>
>
> Our thought for today is from Democritus, the Golden Sayings 64:
>
> "The friendship of one wise man is better than that of every fool."
>

Salve Livia Plauta, et salvete Omnes

That was a very interesting and informative post ... but I must admit that,
before I opened it, and had read only the subject line, that line reminded
me of a rather ... gruesome ... bit of dialog in the book "Silence of the
Lambs" (which actually made a better movie than book, especially the change
in the ending.)

Maria Caeca, *very* glad the sun is shining brightly at the moment!

----- Original Message -----
From: "livia_plauta" <livia.plauta@...>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 5:24 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Fava beans and death (Was:Re: KALEDAE IUNIAE ...)



Salvete omnes,
reading about fava beans (which are obstinately called just "beans" by our
Pontifex maximus, I suddenly thought of a possible reason why they are so
often associated with death and the dead.

The association might be much more concrete than we imagine.

In Sardinia, a genetic disease called favism is quite widespread. It makes
the affected person very strongly allergic to fava beans. A fabic person not
only cannot eat fava beans, or even be in the same room with them, but they
cannot even eat peas which have been grown near fava beans.
For a fabic person, eating fava beans will, quite literally, cause death.

I was wondering if there might have been cases of favism also outside
Sardinia in ancient Italy. If so, it might have happened now and then that a
person eating fava beans "inexplicably" died, contributing to cement the tie
between fava and death.

Optime valete,
Livia


> M. Moravius Piscinus cultoribus Deorum et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit:
> Di vos semper servent.
>
> Hodie est Kalendae Fabariae; haec dies nefastus est: DIE QUINTI TE KALO,
> IUNO COVELLA : Iunoni Monetae in arce; Fabarici circenses missus.
>
> Fabariae
>
> The name for today's date, the Kalendae Fabariae, comes not from a
> festival, but instead from an ancient tradition. On this day one is to
> eat a dish prepared from bean-meal and bacon fat (Macrobius, Saturnalia
> 1.12.22 and 31). This meal was dedicated to the Goddess Carna and was
> intended to preserve one's good health (Pliny H. N. 18.117). As it
> happens, this was the time of year when beans were harvested in Central
> Italy (Columella, 11.2.20).
>
> "Prayers are offered to this Goddess, for the good preservation of liver,
> heart, and the other internal organs of our bodies. Her sacrifices are
> bean-meal and lard, because this is the best food for the nourishment of
> the body." ~ Macrobius, Saturnalia 1.12.32
>
>
> Today celebrates the dedication of five temples at Rome:
>
> AUC 358 / 395 BCE: Temple of Juno Regina, brought from Veii, dedicated on
> the Aventine Hill.
>
>
> AUC 365 / 388 BCE: Temple of Mars dedicated in the Campus Martius.
>
> "Father Mars, You who were not at all deaf to my vows, these men,
> survivors of the battle, dedicate to You the choicest armour of our
> victory trophies." ~ Silius Italicus Punica 10.553-54
>
> "This same day is a festival of Mars, whose temple is seen from beyond
> the Portus Capena." ~Ovidius Naso, Fasti 6.191
>
>
> AUC 409 / 344 BCE: Temple of Juno Moneta dedicated on the Arx.
>
> "The Dictator (L. Furius Camillus) thought it his duty to secure the help
> of the Gods, and during the actual fighting he vowed a temple to Juno
> Moneta. On his victorious return to Rome, he resigned his Dictatorship to
> discharge his vow. The senate ordered two commissioners to be appointed to
> carry out the construction of that temple in a style commensurate with the
> greatness of the Roman people, and a site was marked out in the Citadel
> where the house of M. Manlius Capitolinus had stood." ~ Titus Livius 7.28
>
>
> AUC 494 / 259 BCE: Temple of the Tempestes dedicated near the porta
> Capena.
>
> "You too, Tempests, were considered worthy of a shrine, after our fleet
> was almost sunk in Corsican waters." ~ Ovidius Naso, Fasti 6.193
>
> "Thanks be to Neptunus and the Tempestates, for returning me safe home
> again, my venture a success!" ~ Plautus, Stichus 402
>
>
> AUC 733 / 20 BCE: Temple of Mars Ultor dedicated in the Forum Augusti.
>
> "If, Father, my war is authorized by Vesta's priestess, and whenever I
> prepare to take divine vengeance, Mars, be by my side and satiate cold
> steel with guilt's blood, and lend Your favour to the better side. If I am
> victorious for You I'll build a shrine and call You Ultor, Mars the
> Avenger." ~ Ovid Fasti 5.573-77
>
>
> AUC 736 / 17 BCE: Ludi Saeculares led by Augustus and Agrippa
>
> Acta Sacrorum Saecularium
>
> A proclamation was sent out asking the populace of Rome to participate.
> "All Free Men, you are bid to pray and fast. On the Capitolium, before
> the Temple of Jupiter, and on the Aventine before the temple of Diana
> (join with) the crowded populace present and for the Gods gather
> sweet-smelling herbs to offer."
>
> Those who were 25 or older were to convene on the Capitolium. From among
> those who were younger, two choruses were selected of male and female
> voices to sing a hymn specially composed for the occasion by Horace. As
> some rites of the Ludi Saeculares were reserved for women to conduct, a
> second decree was issued on the Kalendae Fabariae:
>
> "And the edict was issued: The quindecimviri sacris faciundis decree:
> Since, insofar as it accords with proper custom, and in like manner has
> been observed in numerous precedents, whenever there has been a rightful
> cause for public celebration, it has been decided that the mourning of
> women should be suspended; and since it seems that it is appropriate both
> to the honor of the gods and to the remembrance of their worship that that
> should apply to the time of solemn rites and games and that it should be
> scrupulously observed -therefore we have decided that it is incumbent on
> us to issue to women a decree by edict, that they should suspend
> mourning." ~ CIL 6.32323 Lines 110b-14
>
>
> The Ludi Saeculares began soon after Midnight with a nighttime sacrifice
> to the Moirai in the Campus Martius
>
> "On the following night, on the Campus Martius, next to the Tiber, [the
> emperor Caesar Augustus sacrificed] according to the Greek rite [nine
> female lambs to the divine Moirai (Fates) as whole burnt offering; and by
> the same rite he sacrificed nine female goats as a whole burnt offerings
> and spoke the following prayer: "Moirai, as it is prescribed for you in
> the Sibylline books - and for this reason may good fortune attend the
> Roman people, the Quirites - let sacrifice be made to you with nine female
> lambs and nine female goats burnt whole for you. I beg you and pray that
> you may increase the power and majesty of the Roman people, the Quirites,
> in war and peace; and that the Latins may always be obedient; and that you
> may grant eternal safety, victory and health to the Roman people, the
> Quirites; and that you may protect the Roman people, the Quirites, and the
> legions of the Roman people, the Quirites; and that you may keep safe and
> make greater the state of the Roman people, the Quirites, and that you may
> be favorable and propitious to the Roman people], the Quirites, to the
> collegium of the quindecimviri, to me, to my house, to my household; and
> that you may accept this sacrifice of nine female lambs and nine female
> goats, to be burnt whole for you in sacrifice. For these reasons be
> honoured with the sacrifice of this female lamb, become favourable and
> propitious to the Roman people, the Quirites, to the collegium of the
> quindecimviri, to myself, to my house, to my household.
>
> "When the sacrifice was completed, games were celebrated by night on a
> stage, without the additional construction of a theatre and without the
> erection of seating. One hundred and ten matrons, who had been designated
> by decree of the quindecimviri, held sellisternia with two seats set out
> for Juno and Diana.
>
> "Then the games were celebrated with plays in Latin on a wooden theatre
> which had been erected on the Campus Martius next to the Tiber, and in the
> same manner women who were mistresses of households held sellisternia, and
> the games which had begun to take place at night were not interrupted." ~
> CIL 6.32323 Lines 90-110
>
> "Juno Regina, we, one hundred and ten the mothers of the families of the
> people of Rome, the Quirites, pray You allow what is now beneficial to the
> people of Rome, the Quirites, may then be made better, and we brides
> implore You to aid and increase the sovereign power and majesty of the
> people of Rome, the Quirites, in war and peace, and always to watch over
> the fame of the Latins. And may You favor the people of Rome, the
> Quirites, and the legions of the people of Rome, the Quirites, and
> preserve the republic of the people of Rome, the Quirites, and may You
> willingly favor and prosper us, our homes, and our families. This is what
> the one hundred and ten mothers of the families of the people of Rome, the
> Quirites, we brides of our families, pray, entreat, and implore You to
> grant." ~ CIL 6.32329. 10 sqq. Acta Sacrorum Saecularium addition
>
> "On the Kalends of June, on the Capitoline Hill, the emperor Caesar
> Augustus sacrificed a bull to Jupiter Optimus Maximus burnt whole for him,
> and in the same place Marcus Agrippa sacrificed a second. They spoke a
> prayer, as follows: "Jupiter Optimus Maximus, as it is prescribed for you
> in those books -and for this [reason] may good fortune attend the Roman
> people, the Quirites - let sacrifice be made to you with this fine bull. I
> beg you and pray." The rest as above. At the sacred vessel were Caesar,
> Agrippa, Scaevola, Sentius, Lollius, Asinius Gallus, and Rabilis (all the
> members of the quindecimviri).
>
> "Then the games were celebrated with plays in Latin on a wooden theatre
> which had been erected on the Campus Martius next to the Tiber, and in the
> same manner women who were mistresses of households held sellisternia, and
> the games which had begun to take place at night were not interrupted.
>
> "Then by night, next to the Tiber, the emperor Caesar Augustus made
> sacrifice to the divine Ilythiae with nine cakes, nine popana, nine
> phthoes; he spoke the following prayer: "Ilythia, as it is prescribed for
> you in those books -and for this reason [may every good fortune attend]
> the Roman people, the Quirites - let sacrifice be made to you with nine
> popana, nine cakes, nine phthoes. I beg and pray. The rest as above." ~
> CIL 6.32323 Lines 103-110; 115-118
>
> "Ilythia. You who are compassionate towards women, who suffer with great
> labor pains, their bodies strained in slow birth of the hidden child,
> gently attend her, Ilythia, and favor my prayers." ~ Ovidius Naso, Amores
> II.14.19-24
>
>
> AUC 790 / 37 CE: Emperor Caligula gives the people a congiarium
>
> AUC 820 / 67 CE: Flavius Vespasianus captures Jotapata
>
> AUC 946 / 193 CE: Eemperor Didius Julianus deposed; Septimius Severus
> recognized as Emperor at Rome
>
>
> Our thought for today is from Democritus, the Golden Sayings 64:
>
> "The friendship of one wise man is better than that of every fool."
>




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06:09:00

Salve Livia:
we had this very same exciting discussion (hey we thought so;-) in the CP, and after a bit of research it seems beans were served as funeral food in Greece and Rome. Fava beans were black with cthonic associations and the common bean served, so there it is. It has nothing to do with Favism. If you like I can look through the group and give you the references...
valeas
Maior

>
>
> Salvete omnes,
> reading about fava beans (which are obstinately called just "beans" by our Pontifex maximus, I suddenly thought of a possible reason why they are so often associated with death and the dead.
>
> The association might be much more concrete than we imagine.
>
> In Sardinia, a genetic disease called favism is quite widespread. It makes the affected person very strongly allergic to fava beans. A fabic person not only cannot eat fava beans, or even be in the same room with them, but they cannot even eat peas which have been grown near fava beans.
> For a fabic person, eating fava beans will, quite literally, cause death.
>
> I was wondering if there might have been cases of favism also outside Sardinia in ancient Italy. If so, it might have happened now and then that a person eating fava beans "inexplicably" died, contributing to cement the tie between fava and death.
>
> Optime valete,
> Livia
>
>
> > M. Moravius Piscinus cultoribus Deorum et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit: Di vos semper servent.
> >
> > Hodie est Kalendae Fabariae; haec dies nefastus est: DIE QUINTI TE KALO, IUNO COVELLA : Iunoni Monetae in arce; Fabarici circenses missus.
> >
> > Fabariae
> >
> > The name for today's date, the Kalendae Fabariae, comes not from a festival, but instead from an ancient tradition. On this day one is to eat a dish prepared from bean-meal and bacon fat (Macrobius, Saturnalia 1.12.22 and 31). This meal was dedicated to the Goddess Carna and was intended to preserve one's good health (Pliny H. N. 18.117). As it happens, this was the time of year when beans were harvested in Central Italy (Columella, 11.2.20).
> >
> > "Prayers are offered to this Goddess, for the good preservation of liver, heart, and the other internal organs of our bodies. Her sacrifices are bean-meal and lard, because this is the best food for the nourishment of the body." ~ Macrobius, Saturnalia 1.12.32
> >
> >
> > Today celebrates the dedication of five temples at Rome:
> >
> > AUC 358 / 395 BCE: Temple of Juno Regina, brought from Veii, dedicated on the Aventine Hill.
> >
> >
> > AUC 365 / 388 BCE: Temple of Mars dedicated in the Campus Martius.
> >
> > "Father Mars, You who were not at all deaf to my vows, these men, survivors of the battle, dedicate to You the choicest armour of our victory trophies." ~ Silius Italicus Punica 10.553-54
> >
> > "This same day is a festival of Mars, whose temple is seen from beyond the Portus Capena." ~Ovidius Naso, Fasti 6.191
> >
> >
> > AUC 409 / 344 BCE: Temple of Juno Moneta dedicated on the Arx.
> >
> > "The Dictator (L. Furius Camillus) thought it his duty to secure the help of the Gods, and during the actual fighting he vowed a temple to Juno Moneta. On his victorious return to Rome, he resigned his Dictatorship to discharge his vow. The senate ordered two commissioners to be appointed to carry out the construction of that temple in a style commensurate with the greatness of the Roman people, and a site was marked out in the Citadel where the house of M. Manlius Capitolinus had stood." ~ Titus Livius 7.28
> >
> >
> > AUC 494 / 259 BCE: Temple of the Tempestes dedicated near the porta Capena.
> >
> > "You too, Tempests, were considered worthy of a shrine, after our fleet was almost sunk in Corsican waters." ~ Ovidius Naso, Fasti 6.193
> >
> > "Thanks be to Neptunus and the Tempestates, for returning me safe home again, my venture a success!" ~ Plautus, Stichus 402
> >
> >
> > AUC 733 / 20 BCE: Temple of Mars Ultor dedicated in the Forum Augusti.
> >
> > "If, Father, my war is authorized by Vesta's priestess, and whenever I prepare to take divine vengeance, Mars, be by my side and satiate cold steel with guilt's blood, and lend Your favour to the better side. If I am victorious for You I'll build a shrine and call You Ultor, Mars the Avenger." ~ Ovid Fasti 5.573-77
> >
> >
> > AUC 736 / 17 BCE: Ludi Saeculares led by Augustus and Agrippa
> >
> > Acta Sacrorum Saecularium
> >
> > A proclamation was sent out asking the populace of Rome to participate. "All Free Men, you are bid to pray and fast. On the Capitolium, before the Temple of Jupiter, and on the Aventine before the temple of Diana (join with) the crowded populace present and for the Gods gather sweet-smelling herbs to offer."
> >
> > Those who were 25 or older were to convene on the Capitolium. From among those who were younger, two choruses were selected of male and female voices to sing a hymn specially composed for the occasion by Horace. As some rites of the Ludi Saeculares were reserved for women to conduct, a second decree was issued on the Kalendae Fabariae:
> >
> > "And the edict was issued: The quindecimviri sacris faciundis decree: Since, insofar as it accords with proper custom, and in like manner has been observed in numerous precedents, whenever there has been a rightful cause for public celebration, it has been decided that the mourning of women should be suspended; and since it seems that it is appropriate both to the honor of the gods and to the remembrance of their worship that that should apply to the time of solemn rites and games and that it should be scrupulously observed –therefore we have decided that it is incumbent on us to issue to women a decree by edict, that they should suspend mourning." ~ CIL 6.32323 Lines 110b-14
> >
> >
> > The Ludi Saeculares began soon after Midnight with a nighttime sacrifice to the Moirai in the Campus Martius
> >
> > "On the following night, on the Campus Martius, next to the Tiber, [the emperor Caesar Augustus sacrificed] according to the Greek rite [nine female lambs to the divine Moirai (Fates) as whole burnt offering; and by the same rite he sacrificed nine female goats as a whole burnt offerings and spoke the following prayer: "Moirai, as it is prescribed for you in the Sibylline books - and for this reason may good fortune attend the Roman people, the Quirites – let sacrifice be made to you with nine female lambs and nine female goats burnt whole for you. I beg you and pray that you may increase the power and majesty of the Roman people, the Quirites, in war and peace; and that the Latins may always be obedient; and that you may grant eternal safety, victory and health to the Roman people, the Quirites; and that you may protect the Roman people, the Quirites, and the legions of the Roman people, the Quirites; and that you may keep safe and make greater the state of the Roman people, the Quirites, and that you may be favorable and propitious to the Roman people], the Quirites, to the collegium of the quindecimviri, to me, to my house, to my household; and that you may accept this sacrifice of nine female lambs and nine female goats, to be burnt whole for you in sacrifice. For these reasons be honoured with the sacrifice of this female lamb, become favourable and propitious to the Roman people, the Quirites, to the collegium of the quindecimviri, to myself, to my house, to my household.
> >
> > "When the sacrifice was completed, games were celebrated by night on a stage, without the additional construction of a theatre and without the erection of seating. One hundred and ten matrons, who had been designated by decree of the quindecimviri, held sellisternia with two seats set out for Juno and Diana.
> >
> > "Then the games were celebrated with plays in Latin on a wooden theatre which had been erected on the Campus Martius next to the Tiber, and in the same manner women who were mistresses of households held sellisternia, and the games which had begun to take place at night were not interrupted." ~ CIL 6.32323 Lines 90-110
> >
> > "Juno Regina, we, one hundred and ten the mothers of the families of the people of Rome, the Quirites, pray You allow what is now beneficial to the people of Rome, the Quirites, may then be made better, and we brides implore You to aid and increase the sovereign power and majesty of the people of Rome, the Quirites, in war and peace, and always to watch over the fame of the Latins. And may You favor the people of Rome, the Quirites, and the legions of the people of Rome, the Quirites, and preserve the republic of the people of Rome, the Quirites, and may You willingly favor and prosper us, our homes, and our families. This is what the one hundred and ten mothers of the families of the people of Rome, the Quirites, we brides of our families, pray, entreat, and implore You to grant." ~ CIL 6.32329. 10 sqq. Acta Sacrorum Saecularium addition
> >
> > "On the Kalends of June, on the Capitoline Hill, the emperor Caesar Augustus sacrificed a bull to Jupiter Optimus Maximus burnt whole for him, and in the same place Marcus Agrippa sacrificed a second. They spoke a prayer, as follows: "Jupiter Optimus Maximus, as it is prescribed for you in those books –and for this [reason] may good fortune attend the Roman people, the Quirites – let sacrifice be made to you with this fine bull. I beg you and pray." The rest as above. At the sacred vessel were Caesar, Agrippa, Scaevola, Sentius, Lollius, Asinius Gallus, and Rabilis (all the members of the quindecimviri).
> >
> > "Then the games were celebrated with plays in Latin on a wooden theatre which had been erected on the Campus Martius next to the Tiber, and in the same manner women who were mistresses of households held sellisternia, and the games which had begun to take place at night were not interrupted.
> >
> > "Then by night, next to the Tiber, the emperor Caesar Augustus made sacrifice to the divine Ilythiae with nine cakes, nine popana, nine phthoes; he spoke the following prayer: "Ilythia, as it is prescribed for you in those books –and for this reason [may every good fortune attend] the Roman people, the Quirites – let sacrifice be made to you with nine popana, nine cakes, nine phthoes. I beg and pray. The rest as above." ~ CIL 6.32323 Lines 103-110; 115-118
> >
> > "Ilythia. You who are compassionate towards women, who suffer with great labor pains, their bodies strained in slow birth of the hidden child, gently attend her, Ilythia, and favor my prayers." ~ Ovidius Naso, Amores II.14.19-24
> >
> >
> > AUC 790 / 37 CE: Emperor Caligula gives the people a congiarium
> >
> > AUC 820 / 67 CE: Flavius Vespasianus captures Jotapata
> >
> > AUC 946 / 193 CE: Eemperor Didius Julianus deposed; Septimius Severus recognized as Emperor at Rome
> >
> >
> > Our thought for today is from Democritus, the Golden Sayings 64:
> >
> > "The friendship of one wise man is better than that of every fool."
> >
>

Salvete,

Here is some info from the "American Medical Association Handbook of Poisonous and Injurious Plants:"

"Toxic Part: Seeds, raw or cooked and pollen when inhaled.

Toxin: An antimetabolite, 2,6-diaminopurine; a glycoside, vicine.

Symptoms: In susceptible humans, within a few minutes of inhaling pollen or several hours after eating the beans, an allergic reaction occurs with dizziness, diarrhea, nausea and vomiting, abdominal pain and sheer prostration. Blood appears in the urine, which turns reddish-brown to black. Anemia develops within a few hours or a day. Male children are the most frequently affected and apparently all fatalities have been children."

Favism, the severe hemolytic anemia, occurs only in susceptible individuals who have inherited a deficiency of an enzyme, glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase. This genetic trait occurs among people of the Mediterranean region and among black Africans. Most individuals have this enzyme and are not affected."

Valete,
Julia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Livia:
> we had this very same exciting discussion (hey we thought so;-) in the CP, and after a bit of research it seems beans were served as funeral food in Greece and Rome. Fava beans were black with cthonic associations and the common bean served, so there it is. It has nothing to do with Favism. If you like I can look through the group and give you the references...
> valeas
> Maior
> >
> >
> > Salvete omnes,
> > reading about fava beans (which are obstinately called just "beans" by our Pontifex maximus, I suddenly thought of a possible reason why they are so often associated with death and the dead.
> >
> > The association might be much more concrete than we imagine.
> >
> > In Sardinia, a genetic disease called favism is quite widespread. It makes the affected person very strongly allergic to fava beans. A fabic person not only cannot eat fava beans, or even be in the same room with them, but they cannot even eat peas which have been grown near fava beans.
> > For a fabic person, eating fava beans will, quite literally, cause death.
> >
> > I was wondering if there might have been cases of favism also outside Sardinia in ancient Italy. If so, it might have happened now and then that a person eating fava beans "inexplicably" died, contributing to cement the tie between fava and death.
> >
> > Optime valete,
> > Livia
> >
> >
> > > M. Moravius Piscinus cultoribus Deorum et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit: Di vos semper servent.
> > >
> > > Hodie est Kalendae Fabariae; haec dies nefastus est: DIE QUINTI TE KALO, IUNO COVELLA : Iunoni Monetae in arce; Fabarici circenses missus.
> > >
> > > Fabariae
> > >
> > > The name for today's date, the Kalendae Fabariae, comes not from a festival, but instead from an ancient tradition. On this day one is to eat a dish prepared from bean-meal and bacon fat (Macrobius, Saturnalia 1.12.22 and 31). This meal was dedicated to the Goddess Carna and was intended to preserve one's good health (Pliny H. N. 18.117). As it happens, this was the time of year when beans were harvested in Central Italy (Columella, 11.2.20).
> > >
> > > "Prayers are offered to this Goddess, for the good preservation of liver, heart, and the other internal organs of our bodies. Her sacrifices are bean-meal and lard, because this is the best food for the nourishment of the body." ~ Macrobius, Saturnalia 1.12.32
> > >
> > >
> > > Today celebrates the dedication of five temples at Rome:
> > >
> > > AUC 358 / 395 BCE: Temple of Juno Regina, brought from Veii, dedicated on the Aventine Hill.
> > >
> > >
> > > AUC 365 / 388 BCE: Temple of Mars dedicated in the Campus Martius.
> > >
> > > "Father Mars, You who were not at all deaf to my vows, these men, survivors of the battle, dedicate to You the choicest armour of our victory trophies." ~ Silius Italicus Punica 10.553-54
> > >
> > > "This same day is a festival of Mars, whose temple is seen from beyond the Portus Capena." ~Ovidius Naso, Fasti 6.191
> > >
> > >
> > > AUC 409 / 344 BCE: Temple of Juno Moneta dedicated on the Arx.
> > >
> > > "The Dictator (L. Furius Camillus) thought it his duty to secure the help of the Gods, and during the actual fighting he vowed a temple to Juno Moneta. On his victorious return to Rome, he resigned his Dictatorship to discharge his vow. The senate ordered two commissioners to be appointed to carry out the construction of that temple in a style commensurate with the greatness of the Roman people, and a site was marked out in the Citadel where the house of M. Manlius Capitolinus had stood." ~ Titus Livius 7.28
> > >
> > >
> > > AUC 494 / 259 BCE: Temple of the Tempestes dedicated near the porta Capena.
> > >
> > > "You too, Tempests, were considered worthy of a shrine, after our fleet was almost sunk in Corsican waters." ~ Ovidius Naso, Fasti 6.193
> > >
> > > "Thanks be to Neptunus and the Tempestates, for returning me safe home again, my venture a success!" ~ Plautus, Stichus 402
> > >
> > >
> > > AUC 733 / 20 BCE: Temple of Mars Ultor dedicated in the Forum Augusti.
> > >
> > > "If, Father, my war is authorized by Vesta's priestess, and whenever I prepare to take divine vengeance, Mars, be by my side and satiate cold steel with guilt's blood, and lend Your favour to the better side. If I am victorious for You I'll build a shrine and call You Ultor, Mars the Avenger." ~ Ovid Fasti 5.573-77
> > >
> > >
> > > AUC 736 / 17 BCE: Ludi Saeculares led by Augustus and Agrippa
> > >
> > > Acta Sacrorum Saecularium
> > >
> > > A proclamation was sent out asking the populace of Rome to participate. "All Free Men, you are bid to pray and fast. On the Capitolium, before the Temple of Jupiter, and on the Aventine before the temple of Diana (join with) the crowded populace present and for the Gods gather sweet-smelling herbs to offer."
> > >
> > > Those who were 25 or older were to convene on the Capitolium. From among those who were younger, two choruses were selected of male and female voices to sing a hymn specially composed for the occasion by Horace. As some rites of the Ludi Saeculares were reserved for women to conduct, a second decree was issued on the Kalendae Fabariae:
> > >
> > > "And the edict was issued: The quindecimviri sacris faciundis decree: Since, insofar as it accords with proper custom, and in like manner has been observed in numerous precedents, whenever there has been a rightful cause for public celebration, it has been decided that the mourning of women should be suspended; and since it seems that it is appropriate both to the honor of the gods and to the remembrance of their worship that that should apply to the time of solemn rites and games and that it should be scrupulously observed –therefore we have decided that it is incumbent on us to issue to women a decree by edict, that they should suspend mourning." ~ CIL 6.32323 Lines 110b-14
> > >
> > >
> > > The Ludi Saeculares began soon after Midnight with a nighttime sacrifice to the Moirai in the Campus Martius
> > >
> > > "On the following night, on the Campus Martius, next to the Tiber, [the emperor Caesar Augustus sacrificed] according to the Greek rite [nine female lambs to the divine Moirai (Fates) as whole burnt offering; and by the same rite he sacrificed nine female goats as a whole burnt offerings and spoke the following prayer: "Moirai, as it is prescribed for you in the Sibylline books - and for this reason may good fortune attend the Roman people, the Quirites – let sacrifice be made to you with nine female lambs and nine female goats burnt whole for you. I beg you and pray that you may increase the power and majesty of the Roman people, the Quirites, in war and peace; and that the Latins may always be obedient; and that you may grant eternal safety, victory and health to the Roman people, the Quirites; and that you may protect the Roman people, the Quirites, and the legions of the Roman people, the Quirites; and that you may keep safe and make greater the state of the Roman people, the Quirites, and that you may be favorable and propitious to the Roman people], the Quirites, to the collegium of the quindecimviri, to me, to my house, to my household; and that you may accept this sacrifice of nine female lambs and nine female goats, to be burnt whole for you in sacrifice. For these reasons be honoured with the sacrifice of this female lamb, become favourable and propitious to the Roman people, the Quirites, to the collegium of the quindecimviri, to myself, to my house, to my household.
> > >
> > > "When the sacrifice was completed, games were celebrated by night on a stage, without the additional construction of a theatre and without the erection of seating. One hundred and ten matrons, who had been designated by decree of the quindecimviri, held sellisternia with two seats set out for Juno and Diana.
> > >
> > > "Then the games were celebrated with plays in Latin on a wooden theatre which had been erected on the Campus Martius next to the Tiber, and in the same manner women who were mistresses of households held sellisternia, and the games which had begun to take place at night were not interrupted." ~ CIL 6.32323 Lines 90-110
> > >
> > > "Juno Regina, we, one hundred and ten the mothers of the families of the people of Rome, the Quirites, pray You allow what is now beneficial to the people of Rome, the Quirites, may then be made better, and we brides implore You to aid and increase the sovereign power and majesty of the people of Rome, the Quirites, in war and peace, and always to watch over the fame of the Latins. And may You favor the people of Rome, the Quirites, and the legions of the people of Rome, the Quirites, and preserve the republic of the people of Rome, the Quirites, and may You willingly favor and prosper us, our homes, and our families. This is what the one hundred and ten mothers of the families of the people of Rome, the Quirites, we brides of our families, pray, entreat, and implore You to grant." ~ CIL 6.32329. 10 sqq. Acta Sacrorum Saecularium addition
> > >
> > > "On the Kalends of June, on the Capitoline Hill, the emperor Caesar Augustus sacrificed a bull to Jupiter Optimus Maximus burnt whole for him, and in the same place Marcus Agrippa sacrificed a second. They spoke a prayer, as follows: "Jupiter Optimus Maximus, as it is prescribed for you in those books –and for this [reason] may good fortune attend the Roman people, the Quirites – let sacrifice be made to you with this fine bull. I beg you and pray." The rest as above. At the sacred vessel were Caesar, Agrippa, Scaevola, Sentius, Lollius, Asinius Gallus, and Rabilis (all the members of the quindecimviri).
> > >
> > > "Then the games were celebrated with plays in Latin on a wooden theatre which had been erected on the Campus Martius next to the Tiber, and in the same manner women who were mistresses of households held sellisternia, and the games which had begun to take place at night were not interrupted.
> > >
> > > "Then by night, next to the Tiber, the emperor Caesar Augustus made sacrifice to the divine Ilythiae with nine cakes, nine popana, nine phthoes; he spoke the following prayer: "Ilythia, as it is prescribed for you in those books –and for this reason [may every good fortune attend] the Roman people, the Quirites – let sacrifice be made to you with nine popana, nine cakes, nine phthoes. I beg and pray. The rest as above." ~ CIL 6.32323 Lines 103-110; 115-118
> > >
> > > "Ilythia. You who are compassionate towards women, who suffer with great labor pains, their bodies strained in slow birth of the hidden child, gently attend her, Ilythia, and favor my prayers." ~ Ovidius Naso, Amores II.14.19-24
> > >
> > >
> > > AUC 790 / 37 CE: Emperor Caligula gives the people a congiarium
> > >
> > > AUC 820 / 67 CE: Flavius Vespasianus captures Jotapata
> > >
> > > AUC 946 / 193 CE: Eemperor Didius Julianus deposed; Septimius Severus recognized as Emperor at Rome
> > >
> > >
> > > Our thought for today is from Democritus, the Golden Sayings 64:
> > >
> > > "The friendship of one wise man is better than that of every fool."
> > >
> >
>

Salve Maior,
I'm sorry to dissent, but fava beans are green and have always been green (unlike the carrot, that underwent several colour changes in its career).
Apparently there's a dark variety, that's still used for some christian rituals. Don't ask me more about that: I discussed the matter during Lemuria with one guy on Facebook (whom I convinced to join NR), and he's the one who said so. Personally I've only ever seen green fava beans.

So the chtonic association is certainly not due to the colour.

Optime vale,
Livia

>
> Salve Livia:
> we had this very same exciting discussion (hey we thought so;-) in the CP, and after a bit of research it seems beans were served as funeral food in Greece and Rome. Fava beans were black with cthonic associations and the common bean served, so there it is. It has nothing to do with Favism. If you like I can look through the group and give you the references...
> valeas
> Maior
> >
> >
> > Salvete omnes,
> > reading about fava beans (which are obstinately called just "beans" by our Pontifex maximus, I suddenly thought of a possible reason why they are so often associated with death and the dead.
> >
> > The association might be much more concrete than we imagine.
> >
> > In Sardinia, a genetic disease called favism is quite widespread. It makes the affected person very strongly allergic to fava beans. A fabic person not only cannot eat fava beans, or even be in the same room with them, but they cannot even eat peas which have been grown near fava beans.
> > For a fabic person, eating fava beans will, quite literally, cause death.
> >
> > I was wondering if there might have been cases of favism also outside Sardinia in ancient Italy. If so, it might have happened now and then that a person eating fava beans "inexplicably" died, contributing to cement the tie between fava and death.
> >
> > Optime valete,
> > Livia
> >
> >
> > > M. Moravius Piscinus cultoribus Deorum et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit: Di vos semper servent.
> > >
> > > Hodie est Kalendae Fabariae; haec dies nefastus est: DIE QUINTI TE KALO, IUNO COVELLA : Iunoni Monetae in arce; Fabarici circenses missus.
> > >
> > > Fabariae
> > >
> > > The name for today's date, the Kalendae Fabariae, comes not from a festival, but instead from an ancient tradition. On this day one is to eat a dish prepared from bean-meal and bacon fat (Macrobius, Saturnalia 1.12.22 and 31). This meal was dedicated to the Goddess Carna and was intended to preserve one's good health (Pliny H. N. 18.117). As it happens, this was the time of year when beans were harvested in Central Italy (Columella, 11.2.20).
> > >
> > > "Prayers are offered to this Goddess, for the good preservation of liver, heart, and the other internal organs of our bodies. Her sacrifices are bean-meal and lard, because this is the best food for the nourishment of the body." ~ Macrobius, Saturnalia 1.12.32
> > >
> > >
> > > Today celebrates the dedication of five temples at Rome:
> > >
> > > AUC 358 / 395 BCE: Temple of Juno Regina, brought from Veii, dedicated on the Aventine Hill.
> > >
> > >
> > > AUC 365 / 388 BCE: Temple of Mars dedicated in the Campus Martius.
> > >
> > > "Father Mars, You who were not at all deaf to my vows, these men, survivors of the battle, dedicate to You the choicest armour of our victory trophies." ~ Silius Italicus Punica 10.553-54
> > >
> > > "This same day is a festival of Mars, whose temple is seen from beyond the Portus Capena." ~Ovidius Naso, Fasti 6.191
> > >
> > >
> > > AUC 409 / 344 BCE: Temple of Juno Moneta dedicated on the Arx.
> > >
> > > "The Dictator (L. Furius Camillus) thought it his duty to secure the help of the Gods, and during the actual fighting he vowed a temple to Juno Moneta. On his victorious return to Rome, he resigned his Dictatorship to discharge his vow. The senate ordered two commissioners to be appointed to carry out the construction of that temple in a style commensurate with the greatness of the Roman people, and a site was marked out in the Citadel where the house of M. Manlius Capitolinus had stood." ~ Titus Livius 7.28
> > >
> > >
> > > AUC 494 / 259 BCE: Temple of the Tempestes dedicated near the porta Capena.
> > >
> > > "You too, Tempests, were considered worthy of a shrine, after our fleet was almost sunk in Corsican waters." ~ Ovidius Naso, Fasti 6.193
> > >
> > > "Thanks be to Neptunus and the Tempestates, for returning me safe home again, my venture a success!" ~ Plautus, Stichus 402
> > >
> > >
> > > AUC 733 / 20 BCE: Temple of Mars Ultor dedicated in the Forum Augusti.
> > >
> > > "If, Father, my war is authorized by Vesta's priestess, and whenever I prepare to take divine vengeance, Mars, be by my side and satiate cold steel with guilt's blood, and lend Your favour to the better side. If I am victorious for You I'll build a shrine and call You Ultor, Mars the Avenger." ~ Ovid Fasti 5.573-77
> > >
> > >
> > > AUC 736 / 17 BCE: Ludi Saeculares led by Augustus and Agrippa
> > >
> > > Acta Sacrorum Saecularium
> > >
> > > A proclamation was sent out asking the populace of Rome to participate. "All Free Men, you are bid to pray and fast. On the Capitolium, before the Temple of Jupiter, and on the Aventine before the temple of Diana (join with) the crowded populace present and for the Gods gather sweet-smelling herbs to offer."
> > >
> > > Those who were 25 or older were to convene on the Capitolium. From among those who were younger, two choruses were selected of male and female voices to sing a hymn specially composed for the occasion by Horace. As some rites of the Ludi Saeculares were reserved for women to conduct, a second decree was issued on the Kalendae Fabariae:
> > >
> > > "And the edict was issued: The quindecimviri sacris faciundis decree: Since, insofar as it accords with proper custom, and in like manner has been observed in numerous precedents, whenever there has been a rightful cause for public celebration, it has been decided that the mourning of women should be suspended; and since it seems that it is appropriate both to the honor of the gods and to the remembrance of their worship that that should apply to the time of solemn rites and games and that it should be scrupulously observed –therefore we have decided that it is incumbent on us to issue to women a decree by edict, that they should suspend mourning." ~ CIL 6.32323 Lines 110b-14
> > >
> > >
> > > The Ludi Saeculares began soon after Midnight with a nighttime sacrifice to the Moirai in the Campus Martius
> > >
> > > "On the following night, on the Campus Martius, next to the Tiber, [the emperor Caesar Augustus sacrificed] according to the Greek rite [nine female lambs to the divine Moirai (Fates) as whole burnt offering; and by the same rite he sacrificed nine female goats as a whole burnt offerings and spoke the following prayer: "Moirai, as it is prescribed for you in the Sibylline books - and for this reason may good fortune attend the Roman people, the Quirites – let sacrifice be made to you with nine female lambs and nine female goats burnt whole for you. I beg you and pray that you may increase the power and majesty of the Roman people, the Quirites, in war and peace; and that the Latins may always be obedient; and that you may grant eternal safety, victory and health to the Roman people, the Quirites; and that you may protect the Roman people, the Quirites, and the legions of the Roman people, the Quirites; and that you may keep safe and make greater the state of the Roman people, the Quirites, and that you may be favorable and propitious to the Roman people], the Quirites, to the collegium of the quindecimviri, to me, to my house, to my household; and that you may accept this sacrifice of nine female lambs and nine female goats, to be burnt whole for you in sacrifice. For these reasons be honoured with the sacrifice of this female lamb, become favourable and propitious to the Roman people, the Quirites, to the collegium of the quindecimviri, to myself, to my house, to my household.
> > >
> > > "When the sacrifice was completed, games were celebrated by night on a stage, without the additional construction of a theatre and without the erection of seating. One hundred and ten matrons, who had been designated by decree of the quindecimviri, held sellisternia with two seats set out for Juno and Diana.
> > >
> > > "Then the games were celebrated with plays in Latin on a wooden theatre which had been erected on the Campus Martius next to the Tiber, and in the same manner women who were mistresses of households held sellisternia, and the games which had begun to take place at night were not interrupted." ~ CIL 6.32323 Lines 90-110
> > >
> > > "Juno Regina, we, one hundred and ten the mothers of the families of the people of Rome, the Quirites, pray You allow what is now beneficial to the people of Rome, the Quirites, may then be made better, and we brides implore You to aid and increase the sovereign power and majesty of the people of Rome, the Quirites, in war and peace, and always to watch over the fame of the Latins. And may You favor the people of Rome, the Quirites, and the legions of the people of Rome, the Quirites, and preserve the republic of the people of Rome, the Quirites, and may You willingly favor and prosper us, our homes, and our families. This is what the one hundred and ten mothers of the families of the people of Rome, the Quirites, we brides of our families, pray, entreat, and implore You to grant." ~ CIL 6.32329. 10 sqq. Acta Sacrorum Saecularium addition
> > >
> > > "On the Kalends of June, on the Capitoline Hill, the emperor Caesar Augustus sacrificed a bull to Jupiter Optimus Maximus burnt whole for him, and in the same place Marcus Agrippa sacrificed a second. They spoke a prayer, as follows: "Jupiter Optimus Maximus, as it is prescribed for you in those books –and for this [reason] may good fortune attend the Roman people, the Quirites – let sacrifice be made to you with this fine bull. I beg you and pray." The rest as above. At the sacred vessel were Caesar, Agrippa, Scaevola, Sentius, Lollius, Asinius Gallus, and Rabilis (all the members of the quindecimviri).
> > >
> > > "Then the games were celebrated with plays in Latin on a wooden theatre which had been erected on the Campus Martius next to the Tiber, and in the same manner women who were mistresses of households held sellisternia, and the games which had begun to take place at night were not interrupted.
> > >
> > > "Then by night, next to the Tiber, the emperor Caesar Augustus made sacrifice to the divine Ilythiae with nine cakes, nine popana, nine phthoes; he spoke the following prayer: "Ilythia, as it is prescribed for you in those books –and for this reason [may every good fortune attend] the Roman people, the Quirites – let sacrifice be made to you with nine popana, nine cakes, nine phthoes. I beg and pray. The rest as above." ~ CIL 6.32323 Lines 103-110; 115-118
> > >
> > > "Ilythia. You who are compassionate towards women, who suffer with great labor pains, their bodies strained in slow birth of the hidden child, gently attend her, Ilythia, and favor my prayers." ~ Ovidius Naso, Amores II.14.19-24
> > >
> > >
> > > AUC 790 / 37 CE: Emperor Caligula gives the people a congiarium
> > >
> > > AUC 820 / 67 CE: Flavius Vespasianus captures Jotapata
> > >
> > > AUC 946 / 193 CE: Eemperor Didius Julianus deposed; Septimius Severus recognized as Emperor at Rome
> > >
> > >
> > > Our thought for today is from Democritus, the Golden Sayings 64:
> > >
> > > "The friendship of one wise man is better than that of every fool."
> > >
> >
>

Salve Julia,
thanks a lot for the info. It seems that favism is indeed not confined to Sardinia. That makes my scenario of occasional deaths linked to fava beans all the more likely.
Literally, the bean of death.

Vale,
Livia

>
> Salvete,
>
> Here is some info from the "American Medical Association Handbook of Poisonous and Injurious Plants:"
>
> "Toxic Part: Seeds, raw or cooked and pollen when inhaled.
>
> Toxin: An antimetabolite, 2,6-diaminopurine; a glycoside, vicine.
>
> Symptoms: In susceptible humans, within a few minutes of inhaling pollen or several hours after eating the beans, an allergic reaction occurs with dizziness, diarrhea, nausea and vomiting, abdominal pain and sheer prostration. Blood appears in the urine, which turns reddish-brown to black. Anemia develops within a few hours or a day. Male children are the most frequently affected and apparently all fatalities have been children."
>
> Favism, the severe hemolytic anemia, occurs only in susceptible individuals who have inherited a deficiency of an enzyme, glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase. This genetic trait occurs among people of the Mediterranean region and among black Africans. Most individuals have this enzyme and are not affected."
>
> Valete,
> Julia
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@> wrote:
> >
> > Salve Livia:
> > we had this very same exciting discussion (hey we thought so;-) in the CP, and after a bit of research it seems beans were served as funeral food in Greece and Rome. Fava beans were black with cthonic associations and the common bean served, so there it is. It has nothing to do with Favism. If you like I can look through the group and give you the references...
> > valeas
> > Maior
> > >
> > >
> > > Salvete omnes,
> > > reading about fava beans (which are obstinately called just "beans" by our Pontifex maximus, I suddenly thought of a possible reason why they are so often associated with death and the dead.
> > >
> > > The association might be much more concrete than we imagine.
> > >
> > > In Sardinia, a genetic disease called favism is quite widespread. It makes the affected person very strongly allergic to fava beans. A fabic person not only cannot eat fava beans, or even be in the same room with them, but they cannot even eat peas which have been grown near fava beans.
> > > For a fabic person, eating fava beans will, quite literally, cause death.
> > >
> > > I was wondering if there might have been cases of favism also outside Sardinia in ancient Italy. If so, it might have happened now and then that a person eating fava beans "inexplicably" died, contributing to cement the tie between fava and death.
> > >
> > > Optime valete,
> > > Livia
> > >
> > >
> > > > M. Moravius Piscinus cultoribus Deorum et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit: Di vos semper servent.
> > > >
> > > > Hodie est Kalendae Fabariae; haec dies nefastus est: DIE QUINTI TE KALO, IUNO COVELLA : Iunoni Monetae in arce; Fabarici circenses missus.
> > > >
> > > > Fabariae
> > > >
> > > > The name for today's date, the Kalendae Fabariae, comes not from a festival, but instead from an ancient tradition. On this day one is to eat a dish prepared from bean-meal and bacon fat (Macrobius, Saturnalia 1.12.22 and 31). This meal was dedicated to the Goddess Carna and was intended to preserve one's good health (Pliny H. N. 18.117). As it happens, this was the time of year when beans were harvested in Central Italy (Columella, 11.2.20).
> > > >
> > > > "Prayers are offered to this Goddess, for the good preservation of liver, heart, and the other internal organs of our bodies. Her sacrifices are bean-meal and lard, because this is the best food for the nourishment of the body." ~ Macrobius, Saturnalia 1.12.32
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Today celebrates the dedication of five temples at Rome:
> > > >
> > > > AUC 358 / 395 BCE: Temple of Juno Regina, brought from Veii, dedicated on the Aventine Hill.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > AUC 365 / 388 BCE: Temple of Mars dedicated in the Campus Martius.
> > > >
> > > > "Father Mars, You who were not at all deaf to my vows, these men, survivors of the battle, dedicate to You the choicest armour of our victory trophies." ~ Silius Italicus Punica 10.553-54
> > > >
> > > > "This same day is a festival of Mars, whose temple is seen from beyond the Portus Capena." ~Ovidius Naso, Fasti 6.191
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > AUC 409 / 344 BCE: Temple of Juno Moneta dedicated on the Arx.
> > > >
> > > > "The Dictator (L. Furius Camillus) thought it his duty to secure the help of the Gods, and during the actual fighting he vowed a temple to Juno Moneta. On his victorious return to Rome, he resigned his Dictatorship to discharge his vow. The senate ordered two commissioners to be appointed to carry out the construction of that temple in a style commensurate with the greatness of the Roman people, and a site was marked out in the Citadel where the house of M. Manlius Capitolinus had stood." ~ Titus Livius 7.28
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > AUC 494 / 259 BCE: Temple of the Tempestes dedicated near the porta Capena.
> > > >
> > > > "You too, Tempests, were considered worthy of a shrine, after our fleet was almost sunk in Corsican waters." ~ Ovidius Naso, Fasti 6.193
> > > >
> > > > "Thanks be to Neptunus and the Tempestates, for returning me safe home again, my venture a success!" ~ Plautus, Stichus 402
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > AUC 733 / 20 BCE: Temple of Mars Ultor dedicated in the Forum Augusti.
> > > >
> > > > "If, Father, my war is authorized by Vesta's priestess, and whenever I prepare to take divine vengeance, Mars, be by my side and satiate cold steel with guilt's blood, and lend Your favour to the better side. If I am victorious for You I'll build a shrine and call You Ultor, Mars the Avenger." ~ Ovid Fasti 5.573-77
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > AUC 736 / 17 BCE: Ludi Saeculares led by Augustus and Agrippa
> > > >
> > > > Acta Sacrorum Saecularium
> > > >
> > > > A proclamation was sent out asking the populace of Rome to participate. "All Free Men, you are bid to pray and fast. On the Capitolium, before the Temple of Jupiter, and on the Aventine before the temple of Diana (join with) the crowded populace present and for the Gods gather sweet-smelling herbs to offer."
> > > >
> > > > Those who were 25 or older were to convene on the Capitolium. From among those who were younger, two choruses were selected of male and female voices to sing a hymn specially composed for the occasion by Horace. As some rites of the Ludi Saeculares were reserved for women to conduct, a second decree was issued on the Kalendae Fabariae:
> > > >
> > > > "And the edict was issued: The quindecimviri sacris faciundis decree: Since, insofar as it accords with proper custom, and in like manner has been observed in numerous precedents, whenever there has been a rightful cause for public celebration, it has been decided that the mourning of women should be suspended; and since it seems that it is appropriate both to the honor of the gods and to the remembrance of their worship that that should apply to the time of solemn rites and games and that it should be scrupulously observed –therefore we have decided that it is incumbent on us to issue to women a decree by edict, that they should suspend mourning." ~ CIL 6.32323 Lines 110b-14
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The Ludi Saeculares began soon after Midnight with a nighttime sacrifice to the Moirai in the Campus Martius
> > > >
> > > > "On the following night, on the Campus Martius, next to the Tiber, [the emperor Caesar Augustus sacrificed] according to the Greek rite [nine female lambs to the divine Moirai (Fates) as whole burnt offering; and by the same rite he sacrificed nine female goats as a whole burnt offerings and spoke the following prayer: "Moirai, as it is prescribed for you in the Sibylline books - and for this reason may good fortune attend the Roman people, the Quirites – let sacrifice be made to you with nine female lambs and nine female goats burnt whole for you. I beg you and pray that you may increase the power and majesty of the Roman people, the Quirites, in war and peace; and that the Latins may always be obedient; and that you may grant eternal safety, victory and health to the Roman people, the Quirites; and that you may protect the Roman people, the Quirites, and the legions of the Roman people, the Quirites; and that you may keep safe and make greater the state of the Roman people, the Quirites, and that you may be favorable and propitious to the Roman people], the Quirites, to the collegium of the quindecimviri, to me, to my house, to my household; and that you may accept this sacrifice of nine female lambs and nine female goats, to be burnt whole for you in sacrifice. For these reasons be honoured with the sacrifice of this female lamb, become favourable and propitious to the Roman people, the Quirites, to the collegium of the quindecimviri, to myself, to my house, to my household.
> > > >
> > > > "When the sacrifice was completed, games were celebrated by night on a stage, without the additional construction of a theatre and without the erection of seating. One hundred and ten matrons, who had been designated by decree of the quindecimviri, held sellisternia with two seats set out for Juno and Diana.
> > > >
> > > > "Then the games were celebrated with plays in Latin on a wooden theatre which had been erected on the Campus Martius next to the Tiber, and in the same manner women who were mistresses of households held sellisternia, and the games which had begun to take place at night were not interrupted." ~ CIL 6.32323 Lines 90-110
> > > >
> > > > "Juno Regina, we, one hundred and ten the mothers of the families of the people of Rome, the Quirites, pray You allow what is now beneficial to the people of Rome, the Quirites, may then be made better, and we brides implore You to aid and increase the sovereign power and majesty of the people of Rome, the Quirites, in war and peace, and always to watch over the fame of the Latins. And may You favor the people of Rome, the Quirites, and the legions of the people of Rome, the Quirites, and preserve the republic of the people of Rome, the Quirites, and may You willingly favor and prosper us, our homes, and our families. This is what the one hundred and ten mothers of the families of the people of Rome, the Quirites, we brides of our families, pray, entreat, and implore You to grant." ~ CIL 6.32329. 10 sqq. Acta Sacrorum Saecularium addition
> > > >
> > > > "On the Kalends of June, on the Capitoline Hill, the emperor Caesar Augustus sacrificed a bull to Jupiter Optimus Maximus burnt whole for him, and in the same place Marcus Agrippa sacrificed a second. They spoke a prayer, as follows: "Jupiter Optimus Maximus, as it is prescribed for you in those books –and for this [reason] may good fortune attend the Roman people, the Quirites – let sacrifice be made to you with this fine bull. I beg you and pray." The rest as above. At the sacred vessel were Caesar, Agrippa, Scaevola, Sentius, Lollius, Asinius Gallus, and Rabilis (all the members of the quindecimviri).
> > > >
> > > > "Then the games were celebrated with plays in Latin on a wooden theatre which had been erected on the Campus Martius next to the Tiber, and in the same manner women who were mistresses of households held sellisternia, and the games which had begun to take place at night were not interrupted.
> > > >
> > > > "Then by night, next to the Tiber, the emperor Caesar Augustus made sacrifice to the divine Ilythiae with nine cakes, nine popana, nine phthoes; he spoke the following prayer: "Ilythia, as it is prescribed for you in those books –and for this reason [may every good fortune attend] the Roman people, the Quirites – let sacrifice be made to you with nine popana, nine cakes, nine phthoes. I beg and pray. The rest as above." ~ CIL 6.32323 Lines 103-110; 115-118
> > > >
> > > > "Ilythia. You who are compassionate towards women, who suffer with great labor pains, their bodies strained in slow birth of the hidden child, gently attend her, Ilythia, and favor my prayers." ~ Ovidius Naso, Amores II.14.19-24
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > AUC 790 / 37 CE: Emperor Caligula gives the people a congiarium
> > > >
> > > > AUC 820 / 67 CE: Flavius Vespasianus captures Jotapata
> > > >
> > > > AUC 946 / 193 CE: Eemperor Didius Julianus deposed; Septimius Severus recognized as Emperor at Rome
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Our thought for today is from Democritus, the Golden Sayings 64:
> > > >
> > > > "The friendship of one wise man is better than that of every fool."
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

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Salvete Livia Juliaque ;
here we go, I've brought my post forward, you can read just about the entire chapter in Google Books, for quick access just type -pythagorean vicia faba - in the Google books search engine. I was mixed up as I believe the flower is black-spotted, anyway the book discusses it in detail, which you and Julia Aquila will enjoy.

"and vicia faba and there is an excellent exerpt from a book: "Plants of Life;Plants of Death" Frederick J.Simoons, University of Wisconsin Press. p.192 begins a chapter called "The color black in the Pythagorean ban" There is adiscussion of the faba, in toto there.
.. The gist seems that the black-spotted vicia
faba minor had chthonic associations, but I don't think lentils, L. culinaris or chickpeas, cicer, or peas, pisum did. And the lima bean Phaesolus lunatus, and P. vulgaris came much later from the Americas."

it's a great discussion in that book, all about beans as funeral food. optime valete
Marca Hortensia Maior

- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "livia_plauta" <livia.plauta@...> wrote:

>
> Salve Maior,
> I'm sorry to dissent, but fava beans are green and have always been green (unlike the carrot, that underwent several colour changes in its career).
> Apparently there's a dark variety, that's still used for some christian rituals. Don't ask me more about that: I discussed the matter during Lemuria with one guy on Facebook (whom I convinced to join NR), and he's the one who said so. Personally I've only ever seen green fava beans.
>
> So the chtonic association is certainly not due to the colour.
>
> Optime vale,
> Livia
>
> >
> > Salve Livia:
> > we had this very same exciting discussion (hey we thought so;-) in the CP, and after a bit of research it seems beans were served as funeral food in Greece and Rome. Fava beans were black with cthonic associations and the common bean served, so there it is. It has nothing to do with Favism. If you like I can look through the group and give you the references...
> > valeas
> > Maior
> > >
> > >
> > > Salvete omnes,
> > > reading about fava beans (which are obstinately called just "beans" by our Pontifex maximus, I suddenly thought of a possible reason why they are so often associated with death and the dead.
> > >
> > > The association might be much more concrete than we imagine.
> > >
> > > In Sardinia, a genetic disease called favism is quite widespread. It makes the affected person very strongly allergic to fava beans. A fabic person not only cannot eat fava beans, or even be in the same room with them, but they cannot even eat peas which have been grown near fava beans.
> > > For a fabic person, eating fava beans will, quite literally, cause death.
> > >
> > > I was wondering if there might have been cases of favism also outside Sardinia in ancient Italy. If so, it might have happened now and then that a person eating fava beans "inexplicably" died, contributing to cement the tie between fava and death.
> > >
> > > Optime valete,
> > > Livia
> > >
> > >
> > > > M. Moravius Piscinus cultoribus Deorum et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit: Di vos semper servent.
> > > >
> > > > Hodie est Kalendae Fabariae; haec dies nefastus est: DIE QUINTI TE KALO, IUNO COVELLA : Iunoni Monetae in arce; Fabarici circenses missus.
> > > >
> > > > Fabariae
> > > >
> > > > The name for today's date, the Kalendae Fabariae, comes not from a festival, but instead from an ancient tradition. On this day one is to eat a dish prepared from bean-meal and bacon fat (Macrobius, Saturnalia 1.12.22 and 31). This meal was dedicated to the Goddess Carna and was intended to preserve one's good health (Pliny H. N. 18.117). As it happens, this was the time of year when beans were harvested in Central Italy (Columella, 11.2.20).
> > > >
> > > > "Prayers are offered to this Goddess, for the good preservation of liver, heart, and the other internal organs of our bodies. Her sacrifices are bean-meal and lard, because this is the best food for the nourishment of the body." ~ Macrobius, Saturnalia 1.12.32
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Today celebrates the dedication of five temples at Rome:
> > > >
> > > > AUC 358 / 395 BCE: Temple of Juno Regina, brought from Veii, dedicated on the Aventine Hill.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > AUC 365 / 388 BCE: Temple of Mars dedicated in the Campus Martius.
> > > >
> > > > "Father Mars, You who were not at all deaf to my vows, these men, survivors of the battle, dedicate to You the choicest armour of our victory trophies." ~ Silius Italicus Punica 10.553-54
> > > >
> > > > "This same day is a festival of Mars, whose temple is seen from beyond the Portus Capena." ~Ovidius Naso, Fasti 6.191
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > AUC 409 / 344 BCE: Temple of Juno Moneta dedicated on the Arx.
> > > >
> > > > "The Dictator (L. Furius Camillus) thought it his duty to secure the help of the Gods, and during the actual fighting he vowed a temple to Juno Moneta. On his victorious return to Rome, he resigned his Dictatorship to discharge his vow. The senate ordered two commissioners to be appointed to carry out the construction of that temple in a style commensurate with the greatness of the Roman people, and a site was marked out in the Citadel where the house of M. Manlius Capitolinus had stood." ~ Titus Livius 7.28
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > AUC 494 / 259 BCE: Temple of the Tempestes dedicated near the porta Capena.
> > > >
> > > > "You too, Tempests, were considered worthy of a shrine, after our fleet was almost sunk in Corsican waters." ~ Ovidius Naso, Fasti 6.193
> > > >
> > > > "Thanks be to Neptunus and the Tempestates, for returning me safe home again, my venture a success!" ~ Plautus, Stichus 402
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > AUC 733 / 20 BCE: Temple of Mars Ultor dedicated in the Forum Augusti.
> > > >
> > > > "If, Father, my war is authorized by Vesta's priestess, and whenever I prepare to take divine vengeance, Mars, be by my side and satiate cold steel with guilt's blood, and lend Your favour to the better side. If I am victorious for You I'll build a shrine and call You Ultor, Mars the Avenger." ~ Ovid Fasti 5.573-77
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > AUC 736 / 17 BCE: Ludi Saeculares led by Augustus and Agrippa
> > > >
> > > > Acta Sacrorum Saecularium
> > > >
> > > > A proclamation was sent out asking the populace of Rome to participate. "All Free Men, you are bid to pray and fast. On the Capitolium, before the Temple of Jupiter, and on the Aventine before the temple of Diana (join with) the crowded populace present and for the Gods gather sweet-smelling herbs to offer."
> > > >
> > > > Those who were 25 or older were to convene on the Capitolium. From among those who were younger, two choruses were selected of male and female voices to sing a hymn specially composed for the occasion by Horace. As some rites of the Ludi Saeculares were reserved for women to conduct, a second decree was issued on the Kalendae Fabariae:
> > > >
> > > > "And the edict was issued: The quindecimviri sacris faciundis decree: Since, insofar as it accords with proper custom, and in like manner has been observed in numerous precedents, whenever there has been a rightful cause for public celebration, it has been decided that the mourning of women should be suspended; and since it seems that it is appropriate both to the honor of the gods and to the remembrance of their worship that that should apply to the time of solemn rites and games and that it should be scrupulously observed –therefore we have decided that it is incumbent on us to issue to women a decree by edict, that they should suspend mourning." ~ CIL 6.32323 Lines 110b-14
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The Ludi Saeculares began soon after Midnight with a nighttime sacrifice to the Moirai in the Campus Martius
> > > >
> > > > "On the following night, on the Campus Martius, next to the Tiber, [the emperor Caesar Augustus sacrificed] according to the Greek rite [nine female lambs to the divine Moirai (Fates) as whole burnt offering; and by the same rite he sacrificed nine female goats as a whole burnt offerings and spoke the following prayer: "Moirai, as it is prescribed for you in the Sibylline books - and for this reason may good fortune attend the Roman people, the Quirites – let sacrifice be made to you with nine female lambs and nine female goats burnt whole for you. I beg you and pray that you may increase the power and majesty of the Roman people, the Quirites, in war and peace; and that the Latins may always be obedient; and that you may grant eternal safety, victory and health to the Roman people, the Quirites; and that you may protect the Roman people, the Quirites, and the legions of the Roman people, the Quirites; and that you may keep safe and make greater the state of the Roman people, the Quirites, and that you may be favorable and propitious to the Roman people], the Quirites, to the collegium of the quindecimviri, to me, to my house, to my household; and that you may accept this sacrifice of nine female lambs and nine female goats, to be burnt whole for you in sacrifice. For these reasons be honoured with the sacrifice of this female lamb, become favourable and propitious to the Roman people, the Quirites, to the collegium of the quindecimviri, to myself, to my house, to my household.
> > > >
> > > > "When the sacrifice was completed, games were celebrated by night on a stage, without the additional construction of a theatre and without the erection of seating. One hundred and ten matrons, who had been designated by decree of the quindecimviri, held sellisternia with two seats set out for Juno and Diana.
> > > >
> > > > "Then the games were celebrated with plays in Latin on a wooden theatre which had been erected on the Campus Martius next to the Tiber, and in the same manner women who were mistresses of households held sellisternia, and the games which had begun to take place at night were not interrupted." ~ CIL 6.32323 Lines 90-110
> > > >
> > > > "Juno Regina, we, one hundred and ten the mothers of the families of the people of Rome, the Quirites, pray You allow what is now beneficial to the people of Rome, the Quirites, may then be made better, and we brides implore You to aid and increase the sovereign power and majesty of the people of Rome, the Quirites, in war and peace, and always to watch over the fame of the Latins. And may You favor the people of Rome, the Quirites, and the legions of the people of Rome, the Quirites, and preserve the republic of the people of Rome, the Quirites, and may You willingly favor and prosper us, our homes, and our families. This is what the one hundred and ten mothers of the families of the people of Rome, the Quirites, we brides of our families, pray, entreat, and implore You to grant." ~ CIL 6.32329. 10 sqq. Acta Sacrorum Saecularium addition
> > > >
> > > > "On the Kalends of June, on the Capitoline Hill, the emperor Caesar Augustus sacrificed a bull to Jupiter Optimus Maximus burnt whole for him, and in the same place Marcus Agrippa sacrificed a second. They spoke a prayer, as follows: "Jupiter Optimus Maximus, as it is prescribed for you in those books –and for this [reason] may good fortune attend the Roman people, the Quirites – let sacrifice be made to you with this fine bull. I beg you and pray." The rest as above. At the sacred vessel were Caesar, Agrippa, Scaevola, Sentius, Lollius, Asinius Gallus, and Rabilis (all the members of the quindecimviri).
> > > >
> > > > "Then the games were celebrated with plays in Latin on a wooden theatre which had been erected on the Campus Martius next to the Tiber, and in the same manner women who were mistresses of households held sellisternia, and the games which had begun to take place at night were not interrupted.
> > > >
> > > > "Then by night, next to the Tiber, the emperor Caesar Augustus made sacrifice to the divine Ilythiae with nine cakes, nine popana, nine phthoes; he spoke the following prayer: "Ilythia, as it is prescribed for you in those books –and for this reason [may every good fortune attend] the Roman people, the Quirites – let sacrifice be made to you with nine popana, nine cakes, nine phthoes. I beg and pray. The rest as above." ~ CIL 6.32323 Lines 103-110; 115-118
> > > >
> > > > "Ilythia. You who are compassionate towards women, who suffer with great labor pains, their bodies strained in slow birth of the hidden child, gently attend her, Ilythia, and favor my prayers." ~ Ovidius Naso, Amores II.14.19-24
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > AUC 790 / 37 CE: Emperor Caligula gives the people a congiarium
> > > >
> > > > AUC 820 / 67 CE: Flavius Vespasianus captures Jotapata
> > > >
> > > > AUC 946 / 193 CE: Eemperor Didius Julianus deposed; Septimius Severus recognized as Emperor at Rome
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Our thought for today is from Democritus, the Golden Sayings 64:
> > > >
> > > > "The friendship of one wise man is better than that of every fool."
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

M. Moravius Piscinus cultoribus Deorum et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit: Di vos servent cum vester.

Hodie est ante diem IV Nonas Iuninias; haec dies fastus aterque est: Ludi Saecilares

AUC 736 / 17 BCE: The Ludi Saeculares continue into the second day.

"Four days before the Nones of June (2 June), on the Capitoline Hill, the emperor Caesar Augustus sacrificed a cow to Juno Regina burnt whole for her, and in the same place Marcus Agrippa sacrificed a second, and spoke a prayer as follows: 'Juno Regina, as it is prescribed for you in those books – and for this reason may every good fortune attend the Roman people, the Quirites – let sacrifice be made to you with a fine cow. I beg and pray:[that you may increase the power and majesty of the Roman people, the Quirites, in war and peace; and that the Latins may always be obedient; and that you may grant eternal safety, victory and health to the Roman people, the Quirites; and that you may protect the Roman people, the Quirites, and the legions of the Roman people, the Quirites; and that you may keep safe and make greater the state of the Roman people, the Quirites, and that you may be favorable and propitious to the Roman people], the Quirites, to the collegium of the quindecimviri, to me, to my house, to my household; and that you may accept this sacrifice of nine female lambs and nine female goats, to be burnt whole for you in sacrifice. For these reasons be honoured with the sacrifice of this female lamb, become favourable and propitious to the Roman people, the Quirites, to the collegium of the quindecimviri, to myself, to my house, to my household.']

"Then Marcus Agrippa dictated to the one hundred and ten married women, mistresses of households, who had been commanded to assemble on the Capitoline Hill, the formula of prayer as follows: 'Juno Regina, if there is any better fortune that may attend the Roman people, the Quirites, we one hundred and ten mistresses of households of the Roman people, the Quirites, married women on bended knee, pray that you[bring it about, we beg and beseech that you increase the power and majesty of the Roman people, the Quirites in war and peace; and that the Latins may always be obedient; and that you may grant eternal safety, victory and health to the Roman people, the Quirites; and that you may protect the Roman people, the Quirites, and the legions of the Roman people, the Quirites; and [that you may keep safe and make greater] the state of the Roman people, the Quirites; and that you may be favourable and propitious to the Roman people, the Quirites, to the quindecimviri sacris faciundis, to us, [to our houses, to our households. These are the things that we one hundred and ten mistresses of households of the Roman people, the Quirites, married women on bended knee, pray, beg, and beseech.' At the sacred vessel were Marcus Agrippa...

"Games were held on the previous day [...]

"Then by night, next to the Tiber, the emperor Caesar Augustus sacrificed a pregnant sow, as a whole burnt offering, to Terra Mater, and spoke the following prayer: 'Terra Mater, as it is prescribed for you in those books –and for this reason may every good fortune attend the Roman people, the Quirites – let sacrifice be made to you with a pregnant sow of your own, as a whole burnt offering. I beg and pray.' The rest as above.

"The matrons held a sellsternia on this day in the same manner as on the previous day." ~ CIL 6.32323 Lines 119-138

Id est:

"Juno Regina, we, one hundred and ten the mothers of the families of the people of Rome, the Quirites, pray You allow what is now beneficial to the people of Rome, the Quirites, may then be made better, and we brides implore You to aid and increase the sovereign power and majesty of the people of Rome, the Quirites, in war and peace, and always to watch over the fame of the Latins. And may You favor the people of Rome, the Quirites, and the legions of the people of Rome, the Quirites, and preserve the republic of the people of Rome, the Quirites, and may You willingly favor and prosper us, our homes, and our families. This is what the one hundred and ten mothers of the families of the people of Rome, the Quirites, we brides of our families, pray, entreat, and implore You to grant." ~ CIL 6.32329. 10 sqq. Acta Sacrorum Saecularium addition


AUC 946 / 193 CE: Death of Emperor Didius Julianus

"In a short time Julianus was deserted by all and left alone in the Palace with one of his prefects, Genialis, and with Repentinus, his son-in law. Finally, it was proposed that the imperial power be taken away from Julianus by order of the senate. This was done, and Severus was forthwith acclaimed emperor, while it was given out that Julianus had taken poison. Nevertheless, the senate dispatched a delegation and through their efforts Julianus was slain in the Palace by a common soldier, while beseeching the protection of Caesar, that is to say, Severus."

"He lived fifty-six years and four months. He ruled two months and five days." ~ Historia Augusta, Didius Iulianus 8.6-8; 9.3


Today's thought is from Epictetus, Discourses 1.30.1:

"When you appear before some man of authority, remember that there is another who looks down from above on what passes here, and that it is Him whom you must please rather than this man."

M. Moravius C. Petronio s. p. d.

Bonam fortunam; excusationes!

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Petronius Dexter" <jfarnoud94@...> wrote:
>
> AUC 2712 / 1959 CE: Birth of C. Petronius Dexter. :o)
>
> "Nupta Jovis potuit dubio dare nomina mensi,
> Carnae festa deae datur imae cardinis haec lux,
> Lustra, a me nato, Phoebus bis quina cucurrit."
> CPD
>
> Vale et valete.
> C. Petronius Dexter
>

Edepol, I missed your birthday??? Felices Natalis, Dexter. Hmph, and you are so much younger than I had thought.

Cura ut valeas, Amice

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "livia_plauta" <livia.plauta@...> wrote:

>

Salua sis, Liuia

I obstinately insist that you are speaking of a different bean than what it would be called in the USA. I recall some nasty, hairy string beans nonna grew that we would call green beans. Then there are the lima beans which can be either green or yellow, but those we called lupini. Fava beans, as we call them in the USA, are similar in shape to lima beans though usually larger, they are a deep brown, towards reddish, with an earthy, meaty flavor. They are not red beans or kidney beans. And "fava" or "fave" we took to mean simply "beans" but used it most often to mean white beans, or what are also called canelli.

Cura ut ualeas et favas gaude

Piscinus

> Salve Maior,
> I'm sorry to dissent, but fava beans are green and have always been green (unlike the carrot, that underwent several colour changes in its career).
> Apparently there's a dark variety, that's still used for some christian rituals. Don't ask me more about that: I discussed the matter during Lemuria with one guy on Facebook (whom I convinced to join NR), and he's the one who said so. Personally I've only ever seen green fava beans.
>
> So the chtonic association is certainly not due to the colour.
>
> Optime vale,
> Livia
>
> >
> > Salve Livia:
> > we had this very same exciting discussion (hey we thought so;-) in the CP, and after a bit of research it seems beans were served as funeral food in Greece and Rome. Fava beans were black with cthonic associations and the common bean served, so there it is. It has nothing to do with Favism. If you like I can look through the group and give you the references...
> > valeas
> > Maior
> > >
> > >
> > > Salvete omnes,
> > > reading about fava beans (which are obstinately called just "beans" by our Pontifex maximus, I suddenly thought of a possible reason why they are so often associated with death and the dead.
> > >
> > > The association might be much more concrete than we imagine.
> > >
> > > In Sardinia, a genetic disease called favism is quite widespread. It makes the affected person very strongly allergic to fava beans. A fabic person not only cannot eat fava beans, or even be in the same room with them, but they cannot even eat peas which have been grown near fava beans.
> > > For a fabic person, eating fava beans will, quite literally, cause death.
> > >
> > > I was wondering if there might have been cases of favism also outside Sardinia in ancient Italy. If so, it might have happened now and then that a person eating fava beans "inexplicably" died, contributing to cement the tie between fava and death.
> > >
> > > Optime valete,
> > > Livia
> > >
> > >
> > > > M. Moravius Piscinus cultoribus Deorum et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit: Di vos semper servent.
> > > >
> > > > Hodie est Kalendae Fabariae; haec dies nefastus est: DIE QUINTI TE KALO, IUNO COVELLA : Iunoni Monetae in arce; Fabarici circenses missus.
> > > >
> > > > Fabariae
> > > >
> > > > The name for today's date, the Kalendae Fabariae, comes not from a festival, but instead from an ancient tradition. On this day one is to eat a dish prepared from bean-meal and bacon fat (Macrobius, Saturnalia 1.12.22 and 31). This meal was dedicated to the Goddess Carna and was intended to preserve one's good health (Pliny H. N. 18.117). As it happens, this was the time of year when beans were harvested in Central Italy (Columella, 11.2.20).
> > > >
> > > > "Prayers are offered to this Goddess, for the good preservation of liver, heart, and the other internal organs of our bodies. Her sacrifices are bean-meal and lard, because this is the best food for the nourishment of the body." ~ Macrobius, Saturnalia 1.12.32
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Today celebrates the dedication of five temples at Rome:
> > > >
> > > > AUC 358 / 395 BCE: Temple of Juno Regina, brought from Veii, dedicated on the Aventine Hill.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > AUC 365 / 388 BCE: Temple of Mars dedicated in the Campus Martius.
> > > >
> > > > "Father Mars, You who were not at all deaf to my vows, these men, survivors of the battle, dedicate to You the choicest armour of our victory trophies." ~ Silius Italicus Punica 10.553-54
> > > >
> > > > "This same day is a festival of Mars, whose temple is seen from beyond the Portus Capena." ~Ovidius Naso, Fasti 6.191
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > AUC 409 / 344 BCE: Temple of Juno Moneta dedicated on the Arx.
> > > >
> > > > "The Dictator (L. Furius Camillus) thought it his duty to secure the help of the Gods, and during the actual fighting he vowed a temple to Juno Moneta. On his victorious return to Rome, he resigned his Dictatorship to discharge his vow. The senate ordered two commissioners to be appointed to carry out the construction of that temple in a style commensurate with the greatness of the Roman people, and a site was marked out in the Citadel where the house of M. Manlius Capitolinus had stood." ~ Titus Livius 7.28
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > AUC 494 / 259 BCE: Temple of the Tempestes dedicated near the porta Capena.
> > > >
> > > > "You too, Tempests, were considered worthy of a shrine, after our fleet was almost sunk in Corsican waters." ~ Ovidius Naso, Fasti 6.193
> > > >
> > > > "Thanks be to Neptunus and the Tempestates, for returning me safe home again, my venture a success!" ~ Plautus, Stichus 402
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > AUC 733 / 20 BCE: Temple of Mars Ultor dedicated in the Forum Augusti.
> > > >
> > > > "If, Father, my war is authorized by Vesta's priestess, and whenever I prepare to take divine vengeance, Mars, be by my side and satiate cold steel with guilt's blood, and lend Your favour to the better side. If I am victorious for You I'll build a shrine and call You Ultor, Mars the Avenger." ~ Ovid Fasti 5.573-77
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > AUC 736 / 17 BCE: Ludi Saeculares led by Augustus and Agrippa
> > > >
> > > > Acta Sacrorum Saecularium
> > > >
> > > > A proclamation was sent out asking the populace of Rome to participate. "All Free Men, you are bid to pray and fast. On the Capitolium, before the Temple of Jupiter, and on the Aventine before the temple of Diana (join with) the crowded populace present and for the Gods gather sweet-smelling herbs to offer."
> > > >
> > > > Those who were 25 or older were to convene on the Capitolium. From among those who were younger, two choruses were selected of male and female voices to sing a hymn specially composed for the occasion by Horace. As some rites of the Ludi Saeculares were reserved for women to conduct, a second decree was issued on the Kalendae Fabariae:
> > > >
> > > > "And the edict was issued: The quindecimviri sacris faciundis decree: Since, insofar as it accords with proper custom, and in like manner has been observed in numerous precedents, whenever there has been a rightful cause for public celebration, it has been decided that the mourning of women should be suspended; and since it seems that it is appropriate both to the honor of the gods and to the remembrance of their worship that that should apply to the time of solemn rites and games and that it should be scrupulously observed –therefore we have decided that it is incumbent on us to issue to women a decree by edict, that they should suspend mourning." ~ CIL 6.32323 Lines 110b-14
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The Ludi Saeculares began soon after Midnight with a nighttime sacrifice to the Moirai in the Campus Martius
> > > >
> > > > "On the following night, on the Campus Martius, next to the Tiber, [the emperor Caesar Augustus sacrificed] according to the Greek rite [nine female lambs to the divine Moirai (Fates) as whole burnt offering; and by the same rite he sacrificed nine female goats as a whole burnt offerings and spoke the following prayer: "Moirai, as it is prescribed for you in the Sibylline books - and for this reason may good fortune attend the Roman people, the Quirites – let sacrifice be made to you with nine female lambs and nine female goats burnt whole for you. I beg you and pray that you may increase the power and majesty of the Roman people, the Quirites, in war and peace; and that the Latins may always be obedient; and that you may grant eternal safety, victory and health to the Roman people, the Quirites; and that you may protect the Roman people, the Quirites, and the legions of the Roman people, the Quirites; and that you may keep safe and make greater the state of the Roman people, the Quirites, and that you may be favorable and propitious to the Roman people], the Quirites, to the collegium of the quindecimviri, to me, to my house, to my household; and that you may accept this sacrifice of nine female lambs and nine female goats, to be burnt whole for you in sacrifice. For these reasons be honoured with the sacrifice of this female lamb, become favourable and propitious to the Roman people, the Quirites, to the collegium of the quindecimviri, to myself, to my house, to my household.
> > > >
> > > > "When the sacrifice was completed, games were celebrated by night on a stage, without the additional construction of a theatre and without the erection of seating. One hundred and ten matrons, who had been designated by decree of the quindecimviri, held sellisternia with two seats set out for Juno and Diana.
> > > >
> > > > "Then the games were celebrated with plays in Latin on a wooden theatre which had been erected on the Campus Martius next to the Tiber, and in the same manner women who were mistresses of households held sellisternia, and the games which had begun to take place at night were not interrupted." ~ CIL 6.32323 Lines 90-110
> > > >
> > > > "Juno Regina, we, one hundred and ten the mothers of the families of the people of Rome, the Quirites, pray You allow what is now beneficial to the people of Rome, the Quirites, may then be made better, and we brides implore You to aid and increase the sovereign power and majesty of the people of Rome, the Quirites, in war and peace, and always to watch over the fame of the Latins. And may You favor the people of Rome, the Quirites, and the legions of the people of Rome, the Quirites, and preserve the republic of the people of Rome, the Quirites, and may You willingly favor and prosper us, our homes, and our families. This is what the one hundred and ten mothers of the families of the people of Rome, the Quirites, we brides of our families, pray, entreat, and implore You to grant." ~ CIL 6.32329. 10 sqq. Acta Sacrorum Saecularium addition
> > > >
> > > > "On the Kalends of June, on the Capitoline Hill, the emperor Caesar Augustus sacrificed a bull to Jupiter Optimus Maximus burnt whole for him, and in the same place Marcus Agrippa sacrificed a second. They spoke a prayer, as follows: "Jupiter Optimus Maximus, as it is prescribed for you in those books –and for this [reason] may good fortune attend the Roman people, the Quirites – let sacrifice be made to you with this fine bull. I beg you and pray." The rest as above. At the sacred vessel were Caesar, Agrippa, Scaevola, Sentius, Lollius, Asinius Gallus, and Rabilis (all the members of the quindecimviri).
> > > >
> > > > "Then the games were celebrated with plays in Latin on a wooden theatre which had been erected on the Campus Martius next to the Tiber, and in the same manner women who were mistresses of households held sellisternia, and the games which had begun to take place at night were not interrupted.
> > > >
> > > > "Then by night, next to the Tiber, the emperor Caesar Augustus made sacrifice to the divine Ilythiae with nine cakes, nine popana, nine phthoes; he spoke the following prayer: "Ilythia, as it is prescribed for you in those books –and for this reason [may every good fortune attend] the Roman people, the Quirites – let sacrifice be made to you with nine popana, nine cakes, nine phthoes. I beg and pray. The rest as above." ~ CIL 6.32323 Lines 103-110; 115-118
> > > >
> > > > "Ilythia. You who are compassionate towards women, who suffer with great labor pains, their bodies strained in slow birth of the hidden child, gently attend her, Ilythia, and favor my prayers." ~ Ovidius Naso, Amores II.14.19-24
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > AUC 790 / 37 CE: Emperor Caligula gives the people a congiarium
> > > >
> > > > AUC 820 / 67 CE: Flavius Vespasianus captures Jotapata
> > > >
> > > > AUC 946 / 193 CE: Eemperor Didius Julianus deposed; Septimius Severus recognized as Emperor at Rome
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Our thought for today is from Democritus, the Golden Sayings 64:
> > > >
> > > > "The friendship of one wise man is better than that of every fool."
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Cato Moravio Piscino Liviae Plautae SPD

Salvete.

"Nonna"? You're of Italian descent, Piscinus? You learn something new every day...

Livia, the Christian thingy you mentioned may be that on St. Joseph's day we used to put beans on the altar for some reason, but they weren't black beans they were greenish-whitish...pale green? I don't know why they were put at the altar, but everyone took one and carried it around for good luck after the Mass - my zio Bunny used to have one in his pocket all the time. I *think* these were the same beans nonna used in pasta fazool (pasta e fagioli). This was about a million years ago when I was a kid, and we thought they were the same beans from "Jack and the Beanstalk".


Valete!

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "marcushoratius" <MHoratius@...> wrote:
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "livia_plauta" <livia.plauta@> wrote:
> >
> Salua sis, Liuia
>
> I obstinately insist that you are speaking of a different bean than what it would be called in the USA. I recall some nasty, hairy string beans nonna grew that we would call green beans. Then there are the lima beans which can be either green or yellow, but those we called lupini. Fava beans, as we call them in the USA, are similar in shape to lima beans though usually larger, they are a deep brown, towards reddish, with an earthy, meaty flavor. They are not red beans or kidney beans. And "fava" or "fave" we took to mean simply "beans" but used it most often to mean white beans, or what are also called canelli.
>
> Cura ut ualeas et favas gaude
>
> Piscinus
>
>
> > Salve Maior,
> > I'm sorry to dissent, but fava beans are green and have always been green (unlike the carrot, that underwent several colour changes in its career).
> > Apparently there's a dark variety, that's still used for some christian rituals. Don't ask me more about that: I discussed the matter during Lemuria with one guy on Facebook (whom I convinced to join NR), and he's the one who said so. Personally I've only ever seen green fava beans.
> >
> > So the chtonic association is certainly not due to the colour.
> >
> > Optime vale,
> > Livia

L. Coruncanius Cato Petronio Dexter SPD Felices natalis!! Di te incolumem custodiant. -- L. Coruncanius Cato Aedilis Curulis Scriba Consulis Hispaniae --- El lun, 1/6/09, Gaius Petronius Dexter <jfarnoud94@...> escribió: De: Gaius Petronius Dexter <jfarnoud94@...> Asunto: [Nova-Roma] Re: KALEDAE IUNIAE: Carna, Juno Regina, Juno Moneta, Mars, Mars Ultor, Tempestes Para: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com Fecha: lunes, 1 junio, 2009 2:55 C. Petronius M. Moravio Piscino Pontifici Maximo et omnibus s.p.d., > Hodie est Kalendae Fabariae; Et natalis meus. (...) > Today celebrates the dedication of five temples at Rome: > AUC 358 / 395 BCE: Temple of Juno Regina, brought from Veii, dedicated on the Aventine Hill.(...) > AUC 365 / 388 BCE: Temple of Mars dedicated in the Campus Martius. (...) > AUC 409 / 344 BCE: Temple of Juno Moneta dedicated on the Arx. (...) > AUC 494 / 259 BCE: Temple of the Tempestes dedicated near the porta Capena. (...) > AUC 733 / 20 BCE: Temple of Mars Ultor dedicated in the Forum Augusti. (...) -------- > AUC 736 / 17 BCE: Ludi Saeculares led by Augustus and Agrippa. (...) > AUC 790 / 37 CE: Emperor Caligula gives the people a congiarium (...) > AUC 820 / 67 CE: Flavius Vespasianus captures Jotapata (...) > AUC 946 / 193 CE: Eemperor Didius Julianus deposed; Septimius Severus recognized as Emperor at Rome. (...) AUC 2712 / 1959 CE: Birth of C. Petronius Dexter. :o) "Nupta Jovis potuit dubio dare nomina mensi, Carnae festa deae datur imae cardinis haec lux, Lustra, a me nato, Phoebus bis quina cucurrit." CPD Vale et valete. C. Petronius Dexter

Salve Piscine,
I looked up fava beans in Wikipedia. See the difference between the italian page (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fave) and the english one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicia_faba).
In the italian page you only see green fava beans. I now realize that probably the dark ones are simply dried fava beans, but I've never seen them in that state, because in Italy and Greece (the two places where they are commonly eaten) they are only used in their fresh state.

Optime vale,
Livia

>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "livia_plauta" <livia.plauta@> wrote:
> >
> Salua sis, Liuia
>
> I obstinately insist that you are speaking of a different bean than what it would be called in the USA. I recall some nasty, hairy string beans nonna grew that we would call green beans. Then there are the lima beans which can be either green or yellow, but those we called lupini. Fava beans, as we call them in the USA, are similar in shape to lima beans though usually larger, they are a deep brown, towards reddish, with an earthy, meaty flavor. They are not red beans or kidney beans. And "fava" or "fave" we took to mean simply "beans" but used it most often to mean white beans, or what are also called canelli.
>
> Cura ut ualeas et favas gaude
>
> Piscinus
>
>
> > Salve Maior,
> > I'm sorry to dissent, but fava beans are green and have always been green (unlike the carrot, that underwent several colour changes in its career).
> > Apparently there's a dark variety, that's still used for some christian rituals. Don't ask me more about that: I discussed the matter during Lemuria with one guy on Facebook (whom I convinced to join NR), and he's the one who said so. Personally I've only ever seen green fava beans.
> >
> > So the chtonic association is certainly not due to the colour.
> >
> > Optime vale,
> > Livia
> >
> > >
> > > Salve Livia:
> > > we had this very same exciting discussion (hey we thought so;-) in the CP, and after a bit of research it seems beans were served as funeral food in Greece and Rome. Fava beans were black with cthonic associations and the common bean served, so there it is. It has nothing to do with Favism. If you like I can look through the group and give you the references...
> > > valeas
> > > Maior
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Salvete omnes,
> > > > reading about fava beans (which are obstinately called just "beans" by our Pontifex maximus, I suddenly thought of a possible reason why they are so often associated with death and the dead.
> > > >
> > > > The association might be much more concrete than we imagine.
> > > >
> > > > In Sardinia, a genetic disease called favism is quite widespread. It makes the affected person very strongly allergic to fava beans. A fabic person not only cannot eat fava beans, or even be in the same room with them, but they cannot even eat peas which have been grown near fava beans.
> > > > For a fabic person, eating fava beans will, quite literally, cause death.
> > > >
> > > > I was wondering if there might have been cases of favism also outside Sardinia in ancient Italy. If so, it might have happened now and then that a person eating fava beans "inexplicably" died, contributing to cement the tie between fava and death.
> > > >
> > > > Optime valete,
> > > > Livia
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > M. Moravius Piscinus cultoribus Deorum et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit: Di vos semper servent.
> > > > >
> > > > > Hodie est Kalendae Fabariae; haec dies nefastus est: DIE QUINTI TE KALO, IUNO COVELLA : Iunoni Monetae in arce; Fabarici circenses missus.
> > > > >
> > > > > Fabariae
> > > > >
> > > > > The name for today's date, the Kalendae Fabariae, comes not from a festival, but instead from an ancient tradition. On this day one is to eat a dish prepared from bean-meal and bacon fat (Macrobius, Saturnalia 1.12.22 and 31). This meal was dedicated to the Goddess Carna and was intended to preserve one's good health (Pliny H. N. 18.117). As it happens, this was the time of year when beans were harvested in Central Italy (Columella, 11.2.20).
> > > > >
> > > > > "Prayers are offered to this Goddess, for the good preservation of liver, heart, and the other internal organs of our bodies. Her sacrifices are bean-meal and lard, because this is the best food for the nourishment of the body." ~ Macrobius, Saturnalia 1.12.32
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Today celebrates the dedication of five temples at Rome:
> > > > >
> > > > > AUC 358 / 395 BCE: Temple of Juno Regina, brought from Veii, dedicated on the Aventine Hill.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > AUC 365 / 388 BCE: Temple of Mars dedicated in the Campus Martius.
> > > > >
> > > > > "Father Mars, You who were not at all deaf to my vows, these men, survivors of the battle, dedicate to You the choicest armour of our victory trophies." ~ Silius Italicus Punica 10.553-54
> > > > >
> > > > > "This same day is a festival of Mars, whose temple is seen from beyond the Portus Capena." ~Ovidius Naso, Fasti 6.191
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > AUC 409 / 344 BCE: Temple of Juno Moneta dedicated on the Arx.
> > > > >
> > > > > "The Dictator (L. Furius Camillus) thought it his duty to secure the help of the Gods, and during the actual fighting he vowed a temple to Juno Moneta. On his victorious return to Rome, he resigned his Dictatorship to discharge his vow. The senate ordered two commissioners to be appointed to carry out the construction of that temple in a style commensurate with the greatness of the Roman people, and a site was marked out in the Citadel where the house of M. Manlius Capitolinus had stood." ~ Titus Livius 7.28
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > AUC 494 / 259 BCE: Temple of the Tempestes dedicated near the porta Capena.
> > > > >
> > > > > "You too, Tempests, were considered worthy of a shrine, after our fleet was almost sunk in Corsican waters." ~ Ovidius Naso, Fasti 6.193
> > > > >
> > > > > "Thanks be to Neptunus and the Tempestates, for returning me safe home again, my venture a success!" ~ Plautus, Stichus 402
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > AUC 733 / 20 BCE: Temple of Mars Ultor dedicated in the Forum Augusti.
> > > > >
> > > > > "If, Father, my war is authorized by Vesta's priestess, and whenever I prepare to take divine vengeance, Mars, be by my side and satiate cold steel with guilt's blood, and lend Your favour to the better side. If I am victorious for You I'll build a shrine and call You Ultor, Mars the Avenger." ~ Ovid Fasti 5.573-77
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > AUC 736 / 17 BCE: Ludi Saeculares led by Augustus and Agrippa
> > > > >
> > > > > Acta Sacrorum Saecularium
> > > > >
> > > > > A proclamation was sent out asking the populace of Rome to participate. "All Free Men, you are bid to pray and fast. On the Capitolium, before the Temple of Jupiter, and on the Aventine before the temple of Diana (join with) the crowded populace present and for the Gods gather sweet-smelling herbs to offer."
> > > > >
> > > > > Those who were 25 or older were to convene on the Capitolium. From among those who were younger, two choruses were selected of male and female voices to sing a hymn specially composed for the occasion by Horace. As some rites of the Ludi Saeculares were reserved for women to conduct, a second decree was issued on the Kalendae Fabariae:
> > > > >
> > > > > "And the edict was issued: The quindecimviri sacris faciundis decree: Since, insofar as it accords with proper custom, and in like manner has been observed in numerous precedents, whenever there has been a rightful cause for public celebration, it has been decided that the mourning of women should be suspended; and since it seems that it is appropriate both to the honor of the gods and to the remembrance of their worship that that should apply to the time of solemn rites and games and that it should be scrupulously observed –therefore we have decided that it is incumbent on us to issue to women a decree by edict, that they should suspend mourning." ~ CIL 6.32323 Lines 110b-14
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The Ludi Saeculares began soon after Midnight with a nighttime sacrifice to the Moirai in the Campus Martius
> > > > >
> > > > > "On the following night, on the Campus Martius, next to the Tiber, [the emperor Caesar Augustus sacrificed] according to the Greek rite [nine female lambs to the divine Moirai (Fates) as whole burnt offering; and by the same rite he sacrificed nine female goats as a whole burnt offerings and spoke the following prayer: "Moirai, as it is prescribed for you in the Sibylline books - and for this reason may good fortune attend the Roman people, the Quirites – let sacrifice be made to you with nine female lambs and nine female goats burnt whole for you. I beg you and pray that you may increase the power and majesty of the Roman people, the Quirites, in war and peace; and that the Latins may always be obedient; and that you may grant eternal safety, victory and health to the Roman people, the Quirites; and that you may protect the Roman people, the Quirites, and the legions of the Roman people, the Quirites; and that you may keep safe and make greater the state of the Roman people, the Quirites, and that you may be favorable and propitious to the Roman people], the Quirites, to the collegium of the quindecimviri, to me, to my house, to my household; and that you may accept this sacrifice of nine female lambs and nine female goats, to be burnt whole for you in sacrifice. For these reasons be honoured with the sacrifice of this female lamb, become favourable and propitious to the Roman people, the Quirites, to the collegium of the quindecimviri, to myself, to my house, to my household.
> > > > >
> > > > > "When the sacrifice was completed, games were celebrated by night on a stage, without the additional construction of a theatre and without the erection of seating. One hundred and ten matrons, who had been designated by decree of the quindecimviri, held sellisternia with two seats set out for Juno and Diana.
> > > > >
> > > > > "Then the games were celebrated with plays in Latin on a wooden theatre which had been erected on the Campus Martius next to the Tiber, and in the same manner women who were mistresses of households held sellisternia, and the games which had begun to take place at night were not interrupted." ~ CIL 6.32323 Lines 90-110
> > > > >
> > > > > "Juno Regina, we, one hundred and ten the mothers of the families of the people of Rome, the Quirites, pray You allow what is now beneficial to the people of Rome, the Quirites, may then be made better, and we brides implore You to aid and increase the sovereign power and majesty of the people of Rome, the Quirites, in war and peace, and always to watch over the fame of the Latins. And may You favor the people of Rome, the Quirites, and the legions of the people of Rome, the Quirites, and preserve the republic of the people of Rome, the Quirites, and may You willingly favor and prosper us, our homes, and our families. This is what the one hundred and ten mothers of the families of the people of Rome, the Quirites, we brides of our families, pray, entreat, and implore You to grant." ~ CIL 6.32329. 10 sqq. Acta Sacrorum Saecularium addition
> > > > >
> > > > > "On the Kalends of June, on the Capitoline Hill, the emperor Caesar Augustus sacrificed a bull to Jupiter Optimus Maximus burnt whole for him, and in the same place Marcus Agrippa sacrificed a second. They spoke a prayer, as follows: "Jupiter Optimus Maximus, as it is prescribed for you in those books –and for this [reason] may good fortune attend the Roman people, the Quirites – let sacrifice be made to you with this fine bull. I beg you and pray." The rest as above. At the sacred vessel were Caesar, Agrippa, Scaevola, Sentius, Lollius, Asinius Gallus, and Rabilis (all the members of the quindecimviri).
> > > > >
> > > > > "Then the games were celebrated with plays in Latin on a wooden theatre which had been erected on the Campus Martius next to the Tiber, and in the same manner women who were mistresses of households held sellisternia, and the games which had begun to take place at night were not interrupted.
> > > > >
> > > > > "Then by night, next to the Tiber, the emperor Caesar Augustus made sacrifice to the divine Ilythiae with nine cakes, nine popana, nine phthoes; he spoke the following prayer: "Ilythia, as it is prescribed for you in those books –and for this reason [may every good fortune attend] the Roman people, the Quirites – let sacrifice be made to you with nine popana, nine cakes, nine phthoes. I beg and pray. The rest as above." ~ CIL 6.32323 Lines 103-110; 115-118
> > > > >
> > > > > "Ilythia. You who are compassionate towards women, who suffer with great labor pains, their bodies strained in slow birth of the hidden child, gently attend her, Ilythia, and favor my prayers." ~ Ovidius Naso, Amores II.14.19-24
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > AUC 790 / 37 CE: Emperor Caligula gives the people a congiarium
> > > > >
> > > > > AUC 820 / 67 CE: Flavius Vespasianus captures Jotapata
> > > > >
> > > > > AUC 946 / 193 CE: Eemperor Didius Julianus deposed; Septimius Severus recognized as Emperor at Rome
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Our thought for today is from Democritus, the Golden Sayings 64:
> > > > >
> > > > > "The friendship of one wise man is better than that of every fool."
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Salve Bulgarians NR! Welcom to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MoesiaNR/
The Bulgarian chat room in Nova Roma.

Livia Catoni sal.
Thanks for the description. This must be the ritual that guy was talking about. Your fava beans sound like the normal ones I know.
They are not the same used in pasta e fagioli (for that one would use american beans). Fava beans are typically quite bitter: it takes great culinary skill to make something edible out of them.

Vale,
Livia

>
> Cato Moravio Piscino Liviae Plautae SPD
>
> Salvete.
>
> "Nonna"? You're of Italian descent, Piscinus? You learn something new every day...
>
> Livia, the Christian thingy you mentioned may be that on St. Joseph's day we used to put beans on the altar for some reason, but they weren't black beans they were greenish-whitish...pale green? I don't know why they were put at the altar, but everyone took one and carried it around for good luck after the Mass - my zio Bunny used to have one in his pocket all the time. I *think* these were the same beans nonna used in pasta fazool (pasta e fagioli). This was about a million years ago when I was a kid, and we thought they were the same beans from "Jack and the Beanstalk".
>
>
> Valete!
>
> Cato
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "marcushoratius" <MHoratius@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "livia_plauta" <livia.plauta@> wrote:
> > >
> > Salua sis, Liuia
> >
> > I obstinately insist that you are speaking of a different bean than what it would be called in the USA. I recall some nasty, hairy string beans nonna grew that we would call green beans. Then there are the lima beans which can be either green or yellow, but those we called lupini. Fava beans, as we call them in the USA, are similar in shape to lima beans though usually larger, they are a deep brown, towards reddish, with an earthy, meaty flavor. They are not red beans or kidney beans. And "fava" or "fave" we took to mean simply "beans" but used it most often to mean white beans, or what are also called canelli.
> >
> > Cura ut ualeas et favas gaude
> >
> > Piscinus
> >
> >
> > > Salve Maior,
> > > I'm sorry to dissent, but fava beans are green and have always been green (unlike the carrot, that underwent several colour changes in its career).
> > > Apparently there's a dark variety, that's still used for some christian rituals. Don't ask me more about that: I discussed the matter during Lemuria with one guy on Facebook (whom I convinced to join NR), and he's the one who said so. Personally I've only ever seen green fava beans.
> > >
> > > So the chtonic association is certainly not due to the colour.
> > >
> > > Optime vale,
> > > Livia
>

-Maior Liviae sal;
Simoons says the Bronze age fava bean,, vicia faba, was different, I believe brown and tiny with a blackish seed coat. The flower has black spots on it. And he produces ancient reports that these black spots were seen as marks of ill omen. (p.213)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicia_faba

try looking up lens escullenta, L. Culinaris (lentils), Pisum Arvense (field peas), Lathyrus Sativus (grass pea) and cicer arietium (chickpeas) all indigenous during Roman times.

the trade with the Americas brought to Italy the Phaeseolus Vulgaris, common green beans and P. lunatus - lima beans

the next chapter in the book is all about favism too.
vale
Maior

> Thanks for the description. This must be the ritual that guy was talking about. Your fava beans sound like the normal ones I know.
> They are not the same used in pasta e fagioli (for that one would use american beans). Fava beans are typically quite bitter: it takes great culinary skill to make something edible out of them.
>
> Vale,
> Livia
>
> >
> > Cato Moravio Piscino Liviae Plautae SPD
> >
> > Salvete.
> >
> > "Nonna"? You're of Italian descent, Piscinus? You learn something new every day...
> >
> > Livia, the Christian thingy you mentioned may be that on St. Joseph's day we used to put beans on the altar for some reason, but they weren't black beans they were greenish-whitish...pale green? I don't know why they were put at the altar, but everyone took one and carried it around for good luck after the Mass - my zio Bunny used to have one in his pocket all the time. I *think* these were the same beans nonna used in pasta fazool (pasta e fagioli). This was about a million years ago when I was a kid, and we thought they were the same beans from "Jack and the Beanstalk".
> >
> >
> > Valete!
> >
> > Cato
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "marcushoratius" <MHoratius@> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "livia_plauta" <livia.plauta@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > Salua sis, Liuia
> > >
> > > I obstinately insist that you are speaking of a different bean than what it would be called in the USA. I recall some nasty, hairy string beans nonna grew that we would call green beans. Then there are the lima beans which can be either green or yellow, but those we called lupini. Fava beans, as we call them in the USA, are similar in shape to lima beans though usually larger, they are a deep brown, towards reddish, with an earthy, meaty flavor. They are not red beans or kidney beans. And "fava" or "fave" we took to mean simply "beans" but used it most often to mean white beans, or what are also called canelli.
> > >
> > > Cura ut ualeas et favas gaude
> > >
> > > Piscinus
> > >
> > >
> > > > Salve Maior,
> > > > I'm sorry to dissent, but fava beans are green and have always been green (unlike the carrot, that underwent several colour changes in its career).
> > > > Apparently there's a dark variety, that's still used for some christian rituals. Don't ask me more about that: I discussed the matter during Lemuria with one guy on Facebook (whom I convinced to join NR), and he's the one who said so. Personally I've only ever seen green fava beans.
> > > >
> > > > So the chtonic association is certainly not due to the colour.
> > > >
> > > > Optime vale,
> > > > Livia
> >
>

M. Curiatius Complutensis Cos omnes civibus Novae Romae S·P·D·

In a few minutes, at 17:00 CET, the votation time ends.

Thanks to all of you who have partecipate in this election.

Curate ut valeatis

C. Petronius M. Moravio s. p. d.,

> Bonam fortunam; excusationes!

Maximas gratias!

> Edepol, I missed your birthday??? Felices Natalis, Dexter.

Thank you very much. I had a good day (fortunately it was a public holiday in France) and I honoured my Genius with the Latin poem that I composed. Because of the day I am born, the 1st of June 1959/2712 was also a Monday, like this time... "justus rerum ordo".

> Hmph, and you are so much younger than I had thought.

So kindly. :o)

> Cura ut valeas, Amice

Et tu, amice.

Vale.
C. Petronius Dexter

C. Petronius Dexter L. Coruncanio Catoni s.p.d.,

> Felices natalis!!

Maximas gratias! Hae Kalendae Iuniae mihi faustae et felices fuerunt. Nunc alterum dimidium saeculum aetatis meae incipio.

[Thank you very much! Those Kalends of June were auspicious and happy to me. Now I begin the second half a century of my life.]

Vale, Cato optime!

C. Petronius Dexter

M. Moravius Piscinus cultoribus Deorum et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit: Bellona consilia communicet cum nos.

Hodie est ante diem III Nonas Iunonias; haec dies comitialis est: sacra Bellonae

AUC 457 / 296 BCE: Temple of Bellona vowed; it became the place where declarations of war were posted in the Campus Martius.

"If today, Bellona, You grant us victory, a new temple I vow." ~ Titus Livius 10.19.17-18

Appius Claudius vowed a temple for Bellona during a war with the Etruscans. The date of its dedication is not known. There was a tradition that an earlier Appius Claudius, consul in 495 BCE had dedicated statues of his ancestors in a temple of Bellona (Pliny, H. N. 35.12). At the very least, it would seem that this Sabine Goddess may have been brought to Rome by the Claudii. She was at times explained as sister of Mars. At other times She appears as though She were wife of Mars, and some have suggested She replaced or absorbed the earlier Nerio. In the Imperial era She became assimilated with an Oriental War Goddess of the same name. The Oriental Bellona was sometimes identified with the Magna Mater. Her eastern priests performed a sword dance for Bellona in which they scored one another and flailed their blood about as they whirled.

A legend said that during the war with Pyrrhus of Epirus the fetiales of Rome were unable to perform the traditional ritual for declaring war because Pyrrhus had no land in Italy on which to cast a spear. Thus the Romans captured an Epiroite soldier and forced him to buy a plot of land in front of the Temple of Bellona. From then afterwards a fetialis would cast his iron spear from the columella onto this "foreign" land. (Livy 1.32.12; Ovid, Fasti 6.205 ff) As the Temple lay outside the pomoerium, Bellona's aedes became the preferred location for Roman generals to meet with foreign ambassadors since a Consul still under arms could not enter the City.

Plutarch, Roman Questions 43

"Why do the ambassadors to Rome, from whatever country they come, proceed to the Temple of Saturnus and register with the praefect of the treasury? Is it because Saturnus was a foreigner, and consequently takes pleasure in foreigners, or is the solution of this question also to be found in history? For it seems that in early days the treasurers used to send gifts to ambassadors, which were called lautia, and cared for the ambassadors when they were sick, and buried them at public expense if they died; but now, owing to the great number of embassies that come, this expensive practice has been discontinued; yet there still remains the preliminary meeting with the praefectus of the treasury in the guise of registration."


AUC 736 / 17 BCE: Ludi Saeculares continued into the third day

"Three days before the Nones of June (3 June), on the Palatine, the emperor Caesar Augustus and Marcus Agrippa made sacrifice [to Apollo and Diana with nine cakes,] nine popana, nine phthoes and they spoke a [prayer] as follows: 'Apollo, as it is prescribed for you in those books – and for this reason may every good fortune attend the Roman people, the Quiries – let sacrifice be made to you with nine popana, and nine cakes, and nine phthoes. I beg and pray.' The rest as above. 'Apollo, just as I have offered popana and prayed to you with proper prayer, for this same reason be honoured with these sacrificial cakes. Become favourable and propitious.' The same was said concerning the phthoes. To Diana in the same words.

"When the sacrifice was completed, the twenty-seven boys, who had been commanded, their fathers and mothers still living, and the same number of girls, sang the hymn. And in the same manner on the Capitoline. The hymn was composed by Quintus Horatius Flaccus. The quindecimviri were present: the emperor Caesar, Marcus Agrippa, Quintus Lepidus, Potitus Messalla, Caius Stolo, Caius Scaevola, Caius Sosius, Caius Norbanus, Marcus Cocceius, Marcus Lollius, Caius Sentius, Marcus Strigo, Lucius Arruntius, Caius Asinius, Marcus Marcellus, Decimus Laelius, Quintus Tubero, Caius Rebilus, Messalla Messallinus.

"When the theatrical games had ended at the [Â…] hour, close by that place where sacrifice had been made on the previous nights and a theatre had been set up and a stage, turning posts were set up and chariot racing was presented; Potitus Mesalla presented trick riders." ~ CIL 6.32323 Lines 139-154


Our thought for today is from Sextus 27:

"You should not possess more than the use of the body requires."

M. Hortensia G.Petronio spd:
felicem natalis Dextro! naturally it should be a public holiday for
noster arbitor elegantium.

I'll raise a glass of wine to salute your genius tonight and may the gods favour you!
would you post the poem as well?
di te ament!
Maior

>
> C. Petronius M. Moravio s. p. d.,
>
> > Bonam fortunam; excusationes!
>
> Maximas gratias!
>
> > Edepol, I missed your birthday??? Felices Natalis, Dexter.
>
> Thank you very much. I had a good day (fortunately it was a public holiday in France) and I honoured my Genius with the Latin poem that I composed. Because of the day I am born, the 1st of June 1959/2712 was also a Monday, like this time... "justus rerum ordo".
>
> > Hmph, and you are so much younger than I had thought.
>
> So kindly. :o)
>
> > Cura ut valeas, Amice
>
> Et tu, amice.
>
> Vale.
> C. Petronius Dexter
>

M. Moravius Piscinus cultoribus Deorum et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit: Hercules virtutem in nos addat.

Hodie est die pristine Nonas Iunias; haec dies comitialis est: Herculi Custodi

AUC 283 / 470 BCE: Birth of Socrates

"His (Socrates') formula for prayer was simple: 'Give me that which is best for me,' for, said he, the Gods know best what good things are - to pray for gold or silver or despotic power were no better than to make some particular throw at dice or stake in battle or any such thing the subject of prayer, of which the future consequences are manifestly uncertain." ~ Xenophon, Memorabilia 1.3


AUC 535 / 218 BCE: Dedication of the Temple of Hercules Magnus Custos in the Circus Flaminius

AUC 671 / 82 BCE: Dedication of the Temple of Hercules Custus near the Circus Flaminius.

"Hercules, Founder of our city, You who are called Alcidus, in whose footsteps we now reside on this hallowed earth, avert the threatening storms from our land." ~ Silius Italicus Punica 1.505-7

"Why not arouse yourself, Hercules, to come and to graciously honour these feats of the festival we hold in your name; whether to split the clouds with your discus, or send your javelin speeding more swiftly than Zephyrs, or whether it please you to lock arms in a Libyan wrestling competition, indulge our ceremonies with your divine presence." ~ Statius, Silvae 3.1.154-158

Plutarch, Roman Questions 90:

"Why is it that, when the sacrifice to Hercules takes place, they mention by name no other God, and why is a dog never seen within His enclosure, as Varro recorded? Do they make mention of no other God because they regard Hercules as a demigod? But, as some relate, even while He was still on earth, Evander erected an altar to Him and brought Him sacrifice. And of all animals he contended most with a dog, for it is a fact that this beast always gave Him much trouble, Cerebus, for instance. And, to crown all, when Oeonus, Licymnius' son, had been murdered by the sons of Hippocoon because of a dog, Hercules was compelled to engage in battle with them, and lost many of His friends and His brother Iphicles."


AUC 736 / 17 BCE: The Ludi Saeculares continued into the fourth day.

There is a gap in the Acta Sacrorum Saecularium Celebratorum on what exactly was performed on 4 June. However an edict was issued either on the third or forth extending the Ludi:

"And an edict was issued in the following words: The quindecimviri sacris faciundis decree: We have added seven extra days of games to the holy rites of the games, and we shall commence them on the Nones of June (5 June) with plays in Latin in the wooden theatre which is next to the Tiber at the second hour; Greek shows in the theatre of Pompey at the third hour; Greek stage plays in the theatre which is in the Circus Flaminius at the fourth hour." ~ CIL 6.32323 Lines 155-8:

Emperor Claudius celebrated the Ludi Saeculares again in 47 CE to mark the 800th anniversary of the Founding of Rome. Domitian celebrated them again in 88 CE, roughly one hundred years after they were instituted by Augustus. Then in 204 CE Severus marked the second hundredth years and in 248 CE Philippus again celebrated the Ludi Saeculares.

From the fifth century we get a description of later events.

"Heralds go about summoning everyone to attend a spectacle they have never seen bfore and will never see again. In summer, a few days before it begins, the Quindecemviri sit in the Capitol and in the Palatine temple on a tribunal and distribute purifying agents, such as torches, brimstone and pitch, to the people; slaves do not participate in this, only freemen. When all the people assemble in the above-mentioned places and in the temple of Diana on the Aventine, each one bringing wheat, barley and beans, they keep the all-night vigils to the Fates with great solemnity for [lacuna] nights. Then when the time arrives for the festival, which is celebrated for three days and three nights in the Campus Martius, the victims are dedicated on the bank of the Tiber at Tarentum.

"Therefore, as the [Sibylline] oracle truly says, while all this was observed according to direction, the Roman Empire was safe and Rome remained in control of virtually all the inhabited world, but once this festival was neglected after Diocletian's abdication, the empire gradually collapsed and was imperceptibly barbarized.... From the consulship of Chilo and Libo [204 CE], when Severus celebrated the Secular Games, until Diocletian for the ninth time and Maximian for the eighth were consuls [304 CE], one hundred years elapsed. Maximian wanted to celebrate the festival then, contrary to rule, but next year Diocletian became a private citizen instead of emperor and Maximian followed his example. When Constantine and Licinius were in their third consulship [314 CE], the period of one hundred and ten years had elapsed and they ought to have kept up the traditional festival. By neglecting it, matters were bound to come to their present unhappy state." ~ Zosimus, Historia Nova 2.5.1-2; 2.7.1-2


AUC 957 / 204 CE: The first day of the Ludi Latini et Graeci honorarii


Our thought for today comes from Epicurus, Savran Maxims 5:

"It is impossible to live a pleasant life without living wisely and honorably and justly, and it is impossible to live wisely and honorably and justly without living pleasantly. Whenever any one of these is lacking, when, for instance, the man is not able to live wisely, though he lives honorably and justly, it is impossible for him to live a pleasant life."

Beautiful pictures of helmet

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1190727/Pictured-The-2-000-year-old-gladiators-helmet-discovered-Pompeiis-ruins.html

Flavia Lucilla Merula

Merule--That helmet is gorgeous! Thank you for sharing the link!

P. Corva

amazing, absalutely beautiful.
 

---

To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
From: kirsteen.falconsfan@...
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 18:19:39 +0100
Subject: [Nova-Roma] The 2,000-year-old gladiator's helmet discovered in Pompeii's ruins

M. Moravius Piscinus cultoribus Deorum et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit: Di vos inculumes custodiant

Hodie est Nonae Iuniae; haec dies nefastus est: Dio Fidio in colle

AUC 287 / 466 BCE: Temple of Semo Sancus dedicated on the Quirinal Hill.

"Because Your hands have purified the Earth, the Sabines of Cures called You Sancus, The Holy One. Hail Father Sancus, whom austere Juno now favors. O Sancus, may You wish to be with me and Your spirit be in my books." ~ Propertius Eligiae 4.9.71-4

The Temple of Semo Sangus (Sancus) was said to have been vowed by Tarquinius Superbus and dedicated by Sp. Postumius on the Quirinal Hill in 466 BCE. However there was an earlier altar within a fanum near this site that had been introduced by Titus Tatius (Dionysius of Halicarnassus 2.49.2; 4.58; 9.60; Varro L. L. 5.74; Livy 8.20.8). His nature was at times described as Dius Fidius; in Greek, Zeus Pistios. The identification of Semo Sancus, a Sabine deity of sowing, as Dius Fidius, a deity of good faith in oaths, would seem to have begun with Aelius Stilo, and was accepted by Verrius (Varro L. L. 5.66; Festus 241). After this identification was well established we find Him called upon in the Imperial Era as Semo Sancus Deus Fidius (CIL 6.568).

Varro tells how a hole pierced the roof of the temple, since, "Some say that it is improper to take an oath by His name when you are under a roof." The same was true of Tutilina and probably other agricultural deities (Plinius Secundus H. N. 18.2). It was in the Temple of Semo Sancus that the Romans stored their oldest treaty, which was between Tarquinius Superbus and the Gabii, made of planks of wood bound by the hide of a sacrificed ox (Dionysius of Halicarnassus 4.58). Also held in His temple was a bronze statue of Gaia Caecilia as she was idealized as the model of "a fair and virtuous woman" (Plutarch, Rom. Ques. 30; i. e.Tanaquil).

Varro also discusses how the name Dius was related to the early name for Jupiter as Diovis, both names referring to the sky. At Iguvium, among the Umbrians, one of their most important deities was Fisiovis Sancius, at times called Fisus. Fisus would seem to be related to Fides, said to have been brought to Rome by Numa Pompilius, if not by Titus Tatius beforehand (Livy 1.21.4). At Iguvium the sacrifice performed for Fisus had his priest don a mandraclo, or double folded white cloth, over his right hand. In similar fashion, for the rite performed for Fides on 1 Oct the flamines maiores bind their right arms from above the elbow to nearly the finger tips. In each case, Umbrian Fisus Sancius, Sabine Semo Sangus, and Roman Dius Fidius there was a strong relation, if not identification, with Jupiter. From Aelius Stilo again there appears an association of Semo Sancus with Hercules as the son of Jupiter (Varro, L. L. 5.66). This was clearly a Greek influence, a syncretism of Heracles with Dius Fidius due to their similar roles as deities by which oaths were sworn and vows made under an open sky. By the time of Tiberius, Ovid was feigning ignorance of Semo Sancus as Hercules was, more and more, taking over His role. Men swore oaths by Semo Sancus, Hercules, Pollux (but not Castor), or by their Genius. Women swore by their Juno (Gellius, Noctes Atticae 11.6.1; Seneca, Epstiles 12.2). Among later Roman scholars therefore Hercules came to be identified as Semo Sancus Dius Fidius.


Plutarch, Roman Questions 28:

"Why do they tell children, whenever they would swear by Hercules, no to do so under a roof, and bid them go out into the open air? Is it, as some relate, because they believe that Hercules had no pleasure in staying in the house, but rejoiced in a life in the open air and a bed under the stars? Or is it rather because Hercules is not one of the native Gods, but a foreigner from afar? For neither do they swear under the roof by Bacchus, since he also is a foreign God if He is from Nysa. Or is this but said in jest to the children and what is done is really a check upon over-readiness and hastiness to swear, as Favorinus stated? For what is done following, as it were, upon preparation produces delay and allows deliberations. Yet one might urge against Favorinus the fact that this custom is not common, but peculiar to Hercules, as may be seen from the legend about him: for it is recorded that he was so circumspect regarding an oath that he swore but once and for Phyleus, the son of Augeas, alone. Wherefore they say that the prophetic priestess also brought up against the Spartans all the oaths they had sworn, saying that it would be better and much more to be desired if they would keep them!"


AUC 736 / 17 BCE: The fifth day of the Ludi Saeculare

"On the Nones of June (5 June), seven extra days of games were commenced: Plays in Latin were given in the wooden theatre; Greek shows in the theatre of Pompey; Greek stage plays in the theatre which is in the Circus Flaminius." ~ CIL 6.32323 Lines 160-161


Our thought for today comes from Marcus Aurelius, Meditations 12.17:

"If it is not right, do not do it: if it is not true, do not say it."

M. Moravius Piscinus Pont. Max. Lictoribus, Curionibus, et omnibus s. p. d.

The Comitia Curiata is called to assemble on dies comitialis XVI Kal. Quin. (16 June) a. AUC MMDCCLXII M. Curiatio M. Iulio consulibus.

The recent elections in the Comitia Populi Tributa chose L. Coruncanius Cato to serve as Aedilis Curulis suffectus. Under the Constitution that office holds imperium. The suffectus shall not be recognized as granted imperium from the Gods until his election can be witnessed in the Comitia Curiata. The Comitia Curiata was unable to meet prior to the conclusion of the assembly of the Comitia Centuriata called by the Consul to elect a Censor suffectus.

Unfortunately, at this time, beginning with the Nones of June, we are in a period of dies nefasti until the end of Vestalia and thus no new assemblies of comitia may meet until the conclusion of feriae Vestalia.

Thus, without imperium, L. Coruncanius Cato cannot yet issue edicta that are binding as law (although he can issue nuntiones to inform the People), and he does not hold a power of veto just yet. He may appoint a staff but he shall be unable to fully take up his duties until his election and imperium are recognized by the Comitia Curiata after 16 June.

M. Curiatius Complutensis Consul omnes civibus Novae Romae SPD

For your knowledge,  Diribitor Suffectus Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator has sent me this report.

Curate ut valeatis

M. Curiatius Complutensis

-------- Mensaje original --------

Asunto:	Report on election results in the Comitia Centuriata.
Fecha:	Fri, 5 Jun 2009 06:37:25 -0500
De:	P Ullerius Stephanus Venator
Para:	M·CVRIATIVS·COMPLVTENSIS, M•IVL• SEVERVS
CC:	College of Diribitors and Custodes

Salvete honored Consuls et Avete Colleagues;

Report on election results in the Comitia Centuriata.

Votes were counted according to the procedures set forth in the "Lex
Fabia de ratione comitiorum centuriatorum".

Summary: All three rogationes are approved. Caeso Fabius Buteo
Modianus is chosen as censor suffectus.

Details:

Rogatio Curiatia Iulia de ratione comitiorum centuriatorum:  There
being 5 centuries not voting, 24 centuries are required to win.

30 centuries answer  "Y" ("uti rogas"). 7 centuries answer "N"
("antiquo"). 9 centuries are tied.

Therefore the citizens of Nova Roma, met in the comitia centuriata,
answer "Y" ("uti rogas") to this rogatio at the end of the first
round.

Rogatio Curiatia Iulia de tributo virginum Vestalium:  There being 6
centuries not voting, 23 centuries are required to win.

29 centuries answer "Y" ("uti rogas"). 7 centuries answer "N"
("antiquo"). 9 centuries are tied.

Therefore the citizens of Nova Roma, met in the comitia centuriata,
answer "Y" ("uti rogas") to this rogatio at the end of the first
round.

Rogatio Curiatia Iulia de institutis publicis religiosis:   There
being 5 centuries not voting, 24 centuries are required to win.

Neither position reaching the number 24, ties were broken by lot. As a
result, 28 centuries answer "Y" ("uti rogas"). 18 centuries answer "N"
("antiquo").

Therefore the citizens of Nova Roma, met in the comitia centuriata,
answer "Y" ("uti rogas") to this rogatio at the end of the first
round.

Censor suffectus:  There being 5 centuries not voting, 24 centuries
are required to win.

Neither candidate being the first choice of the required number of
centuries, ties were broken by lot. 17 centuries answered "C. Equitius
Cato", 29 centuries answered "Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus". Therefore
the citizens of Nova Roma, met in the comitia centuriata, select Caeso
Fabius Buteo Modianus as censor suffectus at the end of the first
round.

=========================================
In amicitia et fides -
Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator
Civis circa Quintilis MMDCCLI a.u.c.
Diribitor Suffectus
(Who with this report had discharged his duties fully.)

Salvete  Nova Romans
 
Today is not a good day.
 
It would seem that a majority of voters have chosen to cast a ballot for an individual who can not legally serve as Censor. The electorate can no more change this status as  it could elect me Emperor.
 
I have decided not to allow any illegally elected person to have any of the Censors tools or any shared ownership of the Nova Roman lists which are under the temporary care of the Censors. When my successor is elected in the fall I will turn over all ownership tools and lists to that person who can then decide if they want to share them with a person who can not legally be a Censor. 
 
Come January 1st they can prosecute me until their hearts are content but I will not go quietly.
I will use every legal right I have within Nova Roma to defend my actions as Censor.
 
Each magistrate must conduct themselves according to the laws and the constitution of Nova Roma.  They must also conduct themselves according to the dictates of they own conscience. Allowing  a person to act as Censor, who is ineligible to serve, would be a violation of their Oath of office.

I will not violate mine.

As this is the course I have decided to take any member of the Censors office, who disagrees with it, is free to resign. 
 
Vale
 
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Censor
 
Commodum ex iniuria sua nemo habere debet  

On Fri, 5 Jun 2009, Timothy or Stephen Gallagher wrote:

> I have decided not to allow any illegally elected person to have any of the
> Censors tools

As the hosting provider, I control the password files. I will make any changes to
these that are commanded of me in writing by the consuls.

matt, speaking as sysadmin, not citizen.

--
Matt Hucke (hucke@...), programmer.
author, Graveyards of Illinois - http://graveyards.com/
CYNICO.NET - hosting from $8.33/month; domains $13 - http://cynico.net/

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus S.P.D.

I, David Oliver Kling - Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus do hereby solemnly swear to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, David Oliver Kling - Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

I, David Oliver Kling - Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus swear to uphold and defend the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to act in a way that would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, David Oliver Kling - Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus swear to protect and defend the Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, David Oliver Kling - Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus further swear to fulfill the obligations and responsibilities of the office of Censor Suffectus to the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do I accept the position of Censor Suffectus and all the rights, privileges, obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.

Valete:

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus
Censor - Senator - Pontifex - Augur - Flamen Pomonalis - Lictor

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus Tiberio Galerio Paulino salutem dicit

It saddens me that you wish to take this course of action.  I am a legally elected censor of Nova Roma, and shall act accordingly.  You might not approve, but in time you will have to come to grips with your decision.  Both the people, through their votes, and Gods, through lots, have given me their blessing.

I am willing to set aside my animosity towards you for the betterment of Nova Roma.

Likewise, any scriba assigned to you who would rather work for me is willing to contact me and I will establish my own cohores and appoint them scriba.

Hopefully, you will reconsider your decision.

Vale:

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus

On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 2:04 PM, Timothy or Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@...> wrote:

Salvete  Nova Romans
 
Today is not a good day.
 
It would seem that a majority of voters have chosen to cast a ballot for an individual who can not legally serve as Censor. The electorate can no more change this status as  it could elect me Emperor.
 
I have decided not to allow any illegally elected person to have any of the Censors tools or any shared ownership of the Nova Roman lists which are under the temporary care of the Censors. When my successor is elected in the fall I will turn over all ownership tools and lists to that person who can then decide if they want to share them with a person who can not legally be a Censor. 
 
Come January 1st they can prosecute me until their hearts are content but I will not go quietly.
I will use every legal right I have within Nova Roma to defend my actions as Censor.
 
Each magistrate must conduct themselves according to the laws and the constitution of Nova Roma.  They must also conduct themselves according to the dictates of they own conscience. Allowing  a person to act as Censor, who is ineligible to serve, would be a violation of their Oath of office.

I will not violate mine.

As this is the course I have decided to take any member of the Censors office, who disagrees with it, is free to resign. 
 
Vale
 
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Censor

Salvete Nova Romans
 
It has now been made absurdly clear to me that no matter what a Censor may want or even order it is subject to being over ridden by those who control the "Platform" that Nova Roma uses.
 
The Censors tools are to be given to individuals with the express authorization of the Censor. I guess that applies only to those Censors we agree with.
 
I will now take the weekend to decide what I will do in responce to this turn of events.
 
Valete
 
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Censor

 

---

To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
From: hucke@...
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 13:19:40 -0500
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Commodum ex iniuria sua nemo habere debet

> It has now been made absurdly clear to me that no matter what a Censor may want
> or even order it is subject to being over ridden by those who control the
> "Platform" that Nova Roma uses.

Those who pay the bills, rather; I won't make any edits of the password file
without the express orders of the consuls.

- matt the server guy

--
Matt Hucke (hucke@...), programmer.
author, Graveyards of Illinois - http://graveyards.com/
CYNICO.NET - hosting from $8.33/month; domains $13 - http://cynico.net/

>> I am a legally elected censor of Nova Roma, and shall act accordingly.

See, here's where you're wrong. Your election was not legal, and although you
may act legally as censor, your past actions betray you.

I'm very sorry Nova Roma has brought this upon herself.

Q. Poplicola Flamen Falacer

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Timothy or Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@...> wrote:
>
>
> Salvete Nova Romans
>
>
>
> It has now been made absurdly clear to me that no matter what a Censor may want or even order it is subject to being over ridden by those who control the "Platform" that Nova Roma uses.
>
>
>
> The Censors tools are to be given to individuals with the express authorization of the Censor. I guess that applies only to those Censors we agree with.
>
>
>
> I will now take the weekend to decide what I will do in responce to this turn of events.
>
>
>
> Valete
>
>
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>
> Censor
>
>
>
>
>
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> From: hucke@...
> Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 13:19:40 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Commodum ex iniuria sua nemo habere debet
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, 5 Jun 2009, Timothy or Stephen Gallagher wrote:
>
> > I have decided not to allow any illegally elected person to have any of the
> > Censors tools
>
> As the hosting provider, I control the password files. I will make any changes to
> these that are commanded of me in writing by the consuls.
>
> matt, speaking as sysadmin, not citizen.
>
> --
> Matt Hucke (hucke@...), programmer.
> author, Graveyards of Illinois - http://graveyards.com/
> CYNICO.NET - hosting from $8.33/month; domains $13 - http://cynico.net/
>

M. Hortensia Maior Paulino censoris quiritibus spd;
Pauline, whatever your interpretations or opinions; they are just that - an opinion and not the truth.

This kind of 'I am the possessor of the truth and everyone else is wrong' leads to continuing dysfunctionality. And dictatorship.

We had a full and fair election; the people made their choices and the gods decided the lots. As censor you must respect the gods of Rome and the people. If Cato won it would be exactly the same.

now please, let's stop post election partisan bickering, quarreling and do something real and positive for our community.
bene valete in pacem deorum
M. Hortensia Maior

> >> I am a legally elected censor of Nova Roma, and shall act accordingly.
>
> See, here's where you're wrong. Your election was not legal, and although you
> may act legally as censor, your past actions betray you.
>
> I'm very sorry Nova Roma has brought this upon herself.
>
> Q. Poplicola Flamen Falacer
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Timothy or Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Salvete Nova Romans
> >
> >
> >
> > It has now been made absurdly clear to me that no matter what a Censor may want or even order it is subject to being over ridden by those who control the "Platform" that Nova Roma uses.
> >
> >
> >
> > The Censors tools are to be given to individuals with the express authorization of the Censor. I guess that applies only to those Censors we agree with.
> >
> >
> >
> > I will now take the weekend to decide what I will do in responce to this turn of events.
> >
> >
> >
> > Valete
> >
> >
> >
> > Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> >
> > Censor
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > From: hucke@
> > Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 13:19:40 -0500
> > Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Commodum ex iniuria sua nemo habere debet
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, 5 Jun 2009, Timothy or Stephen Gallagher wrote:
> >
> > > I have decided not to allow any illegally elected person to have any of the
> > > Censors tools
> >
> > As the hosting provider, I control the password files. I will make any changes to
> > these that are commanded of me in writing by the consuls.
> >
> > matt, speaking as sysadmin, not citizen.
> >
> > --
> > Matt Hucke (hucke@), programmer.
> > author, Graveyards of Illinois - http://graveyards.com/
> > CYNICO.NET - hosting from $8.33/month; domains $13 - http://cynico.net/
> >
>

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus Tiberio Galerio Paulino salutem dicit

You wrote:  "The Censors tools are to be given to individuals with the express authorization of the Censor."  You are no longer the sole censor.  You now have a colleague, and you can no longer act alone.  You cannot deny your colleague access to the tools that come with the office.  No more than you could deny access to rogatores, who are also elected by the people to perform censor-like duties.

Vale;

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus

On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 2:59 PM, Timothy or Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@...> wrote:

Salvete Nova Romans
 
It has now been made absurdly clear to me that no matter what a Censor may want or even order it is subject to being over ridden by those who control the "Platform" that Nova Roma uses.
 
The Censors tools are to be given to individuals with the express authorization of the Censor. I guess that applies only to those Censors we agree with.
 
I will now take the weekend to decide what I will do in responce to this turn of events.
 
Valete
 
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Censor

Ah, but see it's only your opinion that the election was legal.

It's also only your opinion that Pauline's interpretation is only an opinion and not the truth.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> M. Hortensia Maior Paulino censoris quiritibus spd;
> Pauline, whatever your interpretations or opinions; they are just that - an opinion and not the truth.
>
> This kind of 'I am the possessor of the truth and everyone else is wrong' leads to continuing dysfunctionality. And dictatorship.
>
> We had a full and fair election; the people made their choices and the gods decided the lots. As censor you must respect the gods of Rome and the people. If Cato won it would be exactly the same.
>
> now please, let's stop post election partisan bickering, quarreling and do something real and positive for our community.
> bene valete in pacem deorum
> M. Hortensia Maior
>
>
>
> > >> I am a legally elected censor of Nova Roma, and shall act accordingly.
> >
> > See, here's where you're wrong. Your election was not legal, and although you
> > may act legally as censor, your past actions betray you.
> >
> > I'm very sorry Nova Roma has brought this upon herself.
> >
> > Q. Poplicola Flamen Falacer
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Timothy or Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Salvete Nova Romans
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > It has now been made absurdly clear to me that no matter what a Censor may want or even order it is subject to being over ridden by those who control the "Platform" that Nova Roma uses.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The Censors tools are to be given to individuals with the express authorization of the Censor. I guess that applies only to those Censors we agree with.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I will now take the weekend to decide what I will do in responce to this turn of events.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Valete
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> > >
> > > Censor
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > > From: hucke@
> > > Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 13:19:40 -0500
> > > Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Commodum ex iniuria sua nemo habere debet
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, 5 Jun 2009, Timothy or Stephen Gallagher wrote:
> > >
> > > > I have decided not to allow any illegally elected person to have any of the
> > > > Censors tools
> > >
> > > As the hosting provider, I control the password files. I will make any changes to
> > > these that are commanded of me in writing by the consuls.
> > >
> > > matt, speaking as sysadmin, not citizen.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Matt Hucke (hucke@), programmer.
> > > author, Graveyards of Illinois - http://graveyards.com/
> > > CYNICO.NET - hosting from $8.33/month; domains $13 - http://cynico.net/
> > >
> >
>

Salve;
not at all. The candidates were approved by the magistrates, the people and the tribunes had plenty of opportunity to legally object. They didn't.

And the people then, and remember, the first centuries composed of Senators voted for Modianus.

So yes, the power lies with the people. If they didn't want K. Fabius Buteo Modianus they would not have voted for him. And the gods decided the ties.
Paulinus is a censor with no imperium. Censors during the Republic made the effort to work with their political enemies for the good of the res publica. I posted it here during the election.
bene vale in pacem deorum
M. Hortensia Maior

>
> Ah, but see it's only your opinion that the election was legal.
>
> It's also only your opinion that Pauline's interpretation is only an opinion and not the truth.
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@> wrote:
> >
> > M. Hortensia Maior Paulino censoris quiritibus spd;
> > Pauline, whatever your interpretations or opinions; they are just that - an opinion and not the truth.
> >
> > This kind of 'I am the possessor of the truth and everyone else is wrong' leads to continuing dysfunctionality. And dictatorship.
> >
> > We had a full and fair election; the people made their choices and the gods decided the lots. As censor you must respect the gods of Rome and the people. If Cato won it would be exactly the same.
> >
> > now please, let's stop post election partisan bickering, quarreling and do something real and positive for our community.
> > bene valete in pacem deorum
> > M. Hortensia Maior
> >
> >
> >
> > > >> I am a legally elected censor of Nova Roma, and shall act accordingly.
> > >
> > > See, here's where you're wrong. Your election was not legal, and although you
> > > may act legally as censor, your past actions betray you.
> > >
> > > I'm very sorry Nova Roma has brought this upon herself.
> > >
> > > Q. Poplicola Flamen Falacer
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Timothy or Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Salvete Nova Romans
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > It has now been made absurdly clear to me that no matter what a Censor may want or even order it is subject to being over ridden by those who control the "Platform" that Nova Roma uses.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The Censors tools are to be given to individuals with the express authorization of the Censor. I guess that applies only to those Censors we agree with.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I will now take the weekend to decide what I will do in responce to this turn of events.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Valete
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> > > >
> > > > Censor
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > > > From: hucke@
> > > > Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 13:19:40 -0500
> > > > Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Commodum ex iniuria sua nemo habere debet
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, 5 Jun 2009, Timothy or Stephen Gallagher wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I have decided not to allow any illegally elected person to have any of the
> > > > > Censors tools
> > > >
> > > > As the hosting provider, I control the password files. I will make any changes to
> > > > these that are commanded of me in writing by the consuls.
> > > >
> > > > matt, speaking as sysadmin, not citizen.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Matt Hucke (hucke@), programmer.
> > > > author, Graveyards of Illinois - http://graveyards.com/
> > > > CYNICO.NET - hosting from $8.33/month; domains $13 - http://cynico.net/
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

> It's also only your opinion that Pauline's interpretation is only an opinion and not the truth.

That's only your opinion.

--
Matt Hucke (hucke@...), programmer.
author, Graveyards of Illinois - http://graveyards.com/
CYNICO.NET - hosting from $8.33/month; domains $13 - http://cynico.net/

L. Coruncanius Cato omn. spd. Welcome to the Marx brothers cabin! Di vos incolumem custodiant. -- L. Coruncanius Cato Aedilis Curulis Scriba Consulis Hispaniae --- El sáb, 6/6/09, Matt Hucke <hucke@...> escribió: De: Matt Hucke <hucke@...> Asunto: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Commodum ex iniuria sua nemo habere debet Para: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com Fecha: sábado, 6 junio, 2009 1:51 > It's also only your opinion that Pauline's interpretation is only an opinion and not the truth. That's only your opinion. -- Matt Hucke (hucke@cynico. net), programmer. author, Graveyards of Illinois - http://graveyards. com/ CYNICO.NET - hosting from $8.33/month; domains $13 - http://cynico. net/

Salve Coruncanius cato
 
"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it is too dark to read." - 
Grouchus Marxus 
 
Vale
 
Paulinus
 

---

To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
From: l.coruncanius_cato@...
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 23:54:18 +0000
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Commodum ex iniuria sua nemo habere debet

quod scripsi, scripsi


-----Original Message-----
From: Lucius Coruncanius Cato <l.coruncanius_cato@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 4:54 pm
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Commodum ex iniuria sua nemo habere debet

Avete Omnes;

I should like to thank my colleagues with whom I worked on the
election within the Comitia Centuriata.

Custos - M. Lucretius Agricola, senator
Custos suffectus - Cn. Cornelius Lentulus, pontifex
Diribitor - M. Valerius Traianus
Diribitor - M. Octavius Corvus
Diribitrix suffecta - P Corva Gaudialis
Diribitor suffectus - M Cornelius Gualterus Graecus
Diribitrix suffecta - M Valeria Messallina, Virgo Vestalis Maxima
Diribitrix suffecta - L Iulia Aquila

These men and women were all personable, professional, courteous and diligent.

I think that future elections are in good hands, insofar as the
collection, reconciliation, tallying and reporting of votes is
concerned.

This is my last act as Diribitor Suffectus, with the official
announcement of the results, my term of service is over.

=====================================
In amicitia et fide
Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator
Civis circa Quintilis MMDCCLI a.u.c.
Custos Emeritus, Diribitor Emeritus