Selected messages in Nova-Roma group. Jul 1-7, 2009

Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68337 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: Re: The History of Rome
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68338 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: Re: THE SENATE IS CALLED INTO SESSION
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68339 From: Chad Stricklin Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: Re: Why We Fight
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68340 From: livia_plauta Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: Re: THE SENATE IS CALLED INTO SESSION
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68341 From: Kirsteen Wright Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: Re: The fpasquinus case
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68342 From: Lucius Quirinus Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68343 From: Lucius Coruncanius Cato Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: Re: Mafia and government forms
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68344 From: Lucius Coruncanius Cato Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: Re: THE SENATE IS CALLED INTO SESSION
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68345 From: iulius sabinus Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68346 From: marcushoratius Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: Kalendae Quinctiliae: Juno Regina of the Aventine
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68347 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: Re: The fpasquinus case
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68348 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: Re: Mafia and government forms
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68349 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: Re: THE SENATE IS CALLED INTO SESSION
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68350 From: Jesse Corradino Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68351 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: Re: THE SENATE IS CALLED INTO SESSION
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68352 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: Re: THE SENATE IS CALLED INTO SESSION
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68353 From: jester723 Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: General Information for Roman study topic
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68354 From: Maxima Valeria Messallina Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: Re: The fpasquinus case
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68355 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: Re: General Information for Roman study topic
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68356 From: Maxima Valeria Messallina Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: Re: The fpasquinus case
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68357 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: Re: General Information for Roman study topic
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68358 From: lathyrus77 Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: Re: THE SENATE IS CALLED INTO SESSION
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68359 From: A. Sempronius Regulus Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: Re: Mafia and government forms
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68360 From: Maior Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: Re: Mafia and government forms
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68361 From: C. Maria Caeca Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: Re: The fpasquinus case
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68362 From: A. Sempronius Regulus Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: Imperial RussiaRe: [Nova-Roma] Re: Mafia and government forms
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68363 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2009-07-02
Subject: CALL for PAPERS Dining Divinely: Banqueting in Honor of the Gods
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68364 From: Kveldulf@aol.com Date: 2009-07-02
Subject: Re: Digest Number 4626 - research starting points for the late Repub
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68365 From: marcushoratius Date: 2009-07-02
Subject: a. d. VI Nonas Quinctilias: The Analogy of the Belly
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68366 From: livia_plauta Date: 2009-07-02
Subject: Re: THE SENATE IS CALLED INTO SESSION
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68367 From: L Julia Aquila Date: 2009-07-02
Subject: ANNOUNCEMENT of CONVENTUS NOVAE ROMAE in North America!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68368 From: marcushoratius Date: 2009-07-03
Subject: a. d. V Nonas Quinctilias: dies natalis Titi Iulii Sabini
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68369 From: Titus Iulius Sabinus Date: 2009-07-03
Subject: Re: a. d. V Nonas Quinctilias: dies natalis Titi Iulii Sabini
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68370 From: Lucius Quirinus Date: 2009-07-03
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68371 From: Lucius Quirinus Date: 2009-07-03
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68372 From: Kirsteen Wright Date: 2009-07-03
Subject: Operation Ore and IP addresses
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68373 From: A. Sempronius Regulus Date: 2009-07-03
Subject: Re: Operation Ore and IP addresses
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68374 From: livia_plauta Date: 2009-07-03
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68375 From: livia_plauta Date: 2009-07-03
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68376 From: Jesse Corradino Date: 2009-07-03
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68377 From: Jesse Corradino Date: 2009-07-03
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68378 From: A. Sempronius Regulus Date: 2009-07-03
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68379 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2009-07-03
Subject: Independence Day - WARNING! NOT A ROMAN TOPIC :)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68380 From: Robert Levee Date: 2009-07-03
Subject: Re: Independence Day - WARNING! NOT A ROMAN TOPIC :)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68381 From: lathyrus77 Date: 2009-07-03
Subject: Re: Independence Day - WARNING! NOT A ROMAN TOPIC :)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68382 From: Maior Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: the 4th of July and the 14th of July and the influence of Rome
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68383 From: C. Maria Caeca Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: Re: Independence Day - WARNING! NOT A ROMAN TOPIC :)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68384 From: Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: Re: Independence Day - WARNING! NOT A ROMAN TOPIC :)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68385 From: Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: Nova Roma's Fallen...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68386 From: marcushoratius Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: a. d. IV Nonas Quinctilias: Coriolanus (continued)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68387 From: marcushoratius Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: Re: Nova Roma's Fallen...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68388 From: Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: Re: Nova Roma's Fallen...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68389 From: Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: Re: Nova Roma's Fallen...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68390 From: Timothy or Stephen Gallagher Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: Independence Day - A ROMAN TOPIC :) The American Revolution as one o
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68391 From: Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: Re: Independence Day - A ROMAN TOPIC :) The American Revolution as o
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68392 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: Re: Independence Day - A ROMAN TOPIC :) The American Revolution as o
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68393 From: iulius sabinus Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: Re: Independence Day - A ROMAN TOPIC
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68394 From: C. Maria Caeca Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: JSTOR?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68395 From: Maior Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: Re: JSTOR?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68396 From: C. Maria Caeca Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: Re: JSTOR?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68397 From: David Kling Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: Re: JSTOR?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68398 From: C. Maria Caeca Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: Re: JSTOR?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68399 From: L Julia Aquila Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: Re: Independence Day - A ROMAN TOPIC
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68400 From: L Julia Aquila Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCEMENT of CONVENTUS NOVAE ROMAE in North America!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68401 From: Maior Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: Re: JSTOR?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68402 From: C. Maria Caeca Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: Re: JSTOR?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68403 From: c.aqvillivs_rota Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: I.Aquila/happy 4th July to all
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68404 From: livia_plauta Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68405 From: livia_plauta Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68406 From: livia_plauta Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: New earthquakes in L'Aquila
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68407 From: David Kling Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: Re: JSTOR?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68408 From: C. Maria Caeca Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: Re: JSTOR?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68409 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Modianus refusal to follow the rules cost us our server.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68410 From: lathyrus77 Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Modianus refusal to follow the rules cost us our server.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68411 From: David Kling Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Modianus refusal to follow the rules cost us our server.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68412 From: marcushoratius Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: a. d. III Nonas Quinctilias: POPLIFUGIA
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68413 From: Cn. Cornelius Lentulus Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: 5th Pannonian Nova Roma Summer Camp Closed
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68414 From: L Julia Aquila Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: I.Aquila/happy 4th July to all
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68415 From: L Julia Aquila Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: 5th Pannonian Nova Roma Summer Camp Closed
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68416 From: Maior Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: 5th Pannonian Nova Roma Summer Camp Closed
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68418 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Modianus refusal to follow the rules cost us our server.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68419 From: David Kling Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Modianus refusal to follow the rules cost us our server.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68420 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Modianus refusal to follow the rules cost us our server.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68421 From: Maior Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Modianus refusal to follow the rules cost us our server.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68422 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Modianus refusal to follow the rules cost us our server.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68423 From: David Kling Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Modianus refusal to follow the rules cost us our server.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68424 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Modianus refusal to follow the rules cost us our server.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68425 From: David Kling Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Modianus refusal to follow the rules cost us our server.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68426 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Modianus refusal to follow the rules cost us our server.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68427 From: David Kling Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Modianus refusal to follow the rules cost us our server.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68428 From: galerius_of_rome Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Greetings!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68429 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Modianus refusal to follow the rules cost us our server.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68430 From: David Kling Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Modianus refusal to follow the rules cost us our server.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68431 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Modianus refusal to follow the rules cost us our server.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68432 From: Charlie Collins Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Attacks on Censor Modianus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68433 From: David Kling Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Attacks on Censor Modianus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68434 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Modianus refusal to follow the rules cost us our server.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68435 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Modianus refusal to follow the rules cost us our server.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68436 From: David Kling Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Modianus refusal to follow the rules cost us our server.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68437 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Modianus refusal to follow the rules cost us our server.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68438 From: Steve Moore Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Attacks on Censor Modianus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68439 From: Steve Moore Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Ludi Apollinares
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68440 From: Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Modianus refusal to follow the rules cost us our server.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68441 From: lathyrus77 Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Attacks on Censor Modianus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68442 From: Maior Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Ludi Apollinares
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68443 From: Maior Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Attacks on Censor Modianus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68445 From: Charlie Collins Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Attacks on Censor Modianus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68446 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Ludi Apollinares
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68447 From: Maior Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Deism [ was Attacks on Censor Modianus ]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68448 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Roman values [was Re: Modianus refusal to follow the...]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68449 From: A. Sempronius Regulus Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: DEISM was Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Attacks on Censor Modianus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68450 From: Maior Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: DEISM was Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Attacks on Censor Modianus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68451 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: DEISM was Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Attacks on Censor Modianus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68452 From: aerdensrw Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: 5th Pannonian Nova Roma Summer Camp Closed
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68453 From: C. Maria Caeca Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: definition of empire
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68454 From: Maior Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: DEISM was Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Attacks on Censor Modianus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68455 From: Robert Levee Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: definition of empire
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68456 From: C. Maria Caeca Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: definition of empire
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68457 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: definition of empire
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68458 From: Jesse Corradino Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68459 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Independence Day - A ROMAN TOPIC
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68460 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68461 From: Robert Levee Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68462 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68463 From: Jesse Corradino Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68464 From: Jesse Corradino Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Modianus refusal to follow the rules cost us our server.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68465 From: Timothy or Stephen Gallagher Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Roman values and the word mercy
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68466 From: Timothy or Stephen Gallagher Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Roman values and the word mercy
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68467 From: Timothy or Stephen Gallagher Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Mercy
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68468 From: Maior Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Roman values and the word mercy
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68469 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Roman values and the word mercy
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68470 From: David Kling Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Mercy
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68471 From: Maior Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Ludi Apollinares
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68472 From: Publius Memmius Albucius Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Ludi Apollinares opened
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68473 From: marcushoratius Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Pridie Nonas Quinctilias: Fortuna Muliebris; Ludi Apollinares
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68474 From: marcushoratius Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Attacks on Censor Modianus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68475 From: Kveldulf@aol.com Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Digest Number 4631 - Rome, empire, deism and service abroad
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68476 From: Steve Moore Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Ludi Apollinares I
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68477 From: lathyrus77 Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Mercy
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68478 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Attacks on Censor Modianus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68479 From: L Julia Aquila Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Attacks on Censor Modianus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68480 From: Timothy or Stephen Gallagher Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Roman values and the word mercy
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68481 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Mercy
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68482 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Modianus refusal to follow the rules cost us our server.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68483 From: Timothy or Stephen Gallagher Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Mercy
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68484 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Mercy
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68485 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: definition of empire
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68486 From: Maior Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Roman values and the word mercy
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68487 From: L Julia Aquila Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Ludi Apollinares
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68488 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Digest Number 4631 - Rome, empire, deism and service abroad
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68489 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Fwd: [moderatorcentral] Planned Outage: Wednesday, July 8
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68490 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Hymns to Apollo from the Papyri
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68491 From: A. Sempronius Regulus Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Digest Number 4631 - Rome, empire, deism and service abroad
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68492 From: L Julia Aquila Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Independence Day - A ROMAN TOPIC
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68493 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Independence Day - A ROMAN TOPIC
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68494 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Independence Day - A ROMAN TOPIC
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68495 From: L Julia Aquila Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Independence Day - A ROMAN TOPIC
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68496 From: deciusiunius Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Mercy
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68497 From: lathyrus77 Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Mercy
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68498 From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Posting rules in this Forum, 7/6/2009, 11:45 pm
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68499 From: lathyrus77 Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Mercy
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68500 From: L Julia Aquila Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCEMENT of CONVENTUS NOVAE ROMAE in North America!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68501 From: lathyrus77 Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Mercy
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68502 From: A. Sempronius Regulus Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Nonfunctional linkRe: [Nova-Roma] Re: ANNOUNCEMENT of CONVENTUS NOV
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68503 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Mercy
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68504 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Mercy
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68505 From: L Julia Aquila Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Nonfunctional linkRe: [Nova-Roma] Re: ANNOUNCEMENT of CONVENTUS NOV
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68506 From: deciusiunius Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Mercy
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68507 From: Nabarz Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Stellar Magic
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68508 From: lathyrus77 Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Mercy
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68509 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2009-07-07
Subject: Latin classes...again
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68510 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2009-07-07
Subject: Re: Mercy
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68511 From: lathyrus77 Date: 2009-07-07
Subject: Re: Mercy
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68512 From: marcushoratius Date: 2009-07-07
Subject: NONAE QUINCTILIAE: Juno Caprotina
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68513 From: Steve Moore Date: 2009-07-07
Subject: Ludi Apollinares II
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68514 From: A. Sempronius Regulus Date: 2009-07-07
Subject: Re: Nonfunctional linkRe: [Nova-Roma] Re: ANNOUNCEMENT of CONVENTUS



Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68337 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: Re: The History of Rome
Cool blog added to my RSS Feed. :)

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Timothy or Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@...> wrote:
>
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> Salvete
>
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> http://thehistoryofrome.typepad.com/the_history_of_rome/
>
>
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> Valete
>
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> Paulinus
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68338 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: Re: THE SENATE IS CALLED INTO SESSION
C. Petronius Gualtero sal.,

> Why Complutensis did the fraud is obvious--he wanted to insult and attack people without having his name attached to it. As for me, this isn't about any "dream", but a statement of fact--Complutensis is finished. He will never be trusted in office again. This is unfortunate, but completely his own fault.

You seem as expeditive as were the Spanish Inquisition.

You are not judge and nothing is proved.

Vale.
C. Petronius Dexter
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68339 From: Chad Stricklin Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: Re: Why We Fight
Salvete Omnes,
 
    Romans have a long history of debate and "argument" whether it be politics, military issues or what not. We are similar in that regard. However I believe there should be limits because it does put things on hold/aside, etc... as M. Hortensia Maior has stated. I for one started to totally ignore the list because I did not want to get involved.
 
    These were some pretty big issues and worthy of debate but you can only beat a dead horse so much until it begins to fall apart and disintegrate into a rotting pulp. Constant fighting causes more damage than issues the fighting is about many times. We should be passionate especially about our beliefs but there becomes a point where it is only drama and will not change a thing.
 
 
Now that I have gotten that out of the way. I have forgotten what I was going to add to the conversation.
 
 
 
Optime Valete,
 
    T. Ovidius Aquila
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68340 From: livia_plauta Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: Re: THE SENATE IS CALLED INTO SESSION
Salvete,
yes, Gualterus has a talent for inquisition. He already demonstrated that earlier with Lentulus.
I think he was born in the wrong historical period. A great talent inadequately rewarded!

Valete,
Livia
>
> C. Petronius Gualtero sal.,
>
> > Why Complutensis did the fraud is obvious--he wanted to insult and attack people without having his name attached to it. As for me, this isn't about any "dream", but a statement of fact--Complutensis is finished. He will never be trusted in office again. This is unfortunate, but completely his own fault.
>
> You seem as expeditive as were the Spanish Inquisition.
>
> You are not judge and nothing is proved.
>
> Vale.
> C. Petronius Dexter
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68341 From: Kirsteen Wright Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: Re: The fpasquinus case
On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 3:09 AM, <violetphearsen@...> wrote:


Salvete,
 
This lady lives in Wales and shortly after she had joined our group last year, we received an email from her "husband" informing us that the lady had passed away.

How awful! I can never understand the mentality of people who think things like that are funny

It seems the lady had gone on vacation and while she was gone, her company hired a temporary replacement to do her work. This temporary worker hacked her way into the lady's work computer,......

What we all learned from this was that there are people out there who are vicious hackers and are all too proficient at what they do. They can even manipulate IP's, making it very difficult to trace them. (I have no idea how; this is just what the lady told us.) Very scary stuff!

Yes, hackers like that are really vicious. However, though a hacker can try to hide an IP it is, I believe, a different matter from giving a false one. Like your friend, I live in Britain and the courts here have accepted that. There were several cases of people being charged with illegally downloading files. Some people tried to deny the charge even handing over their computers. However it was ruled that if the originating command came from their IP, then someone had to be physically present there, at that time, to have done so. It was deemed impossible to fabricate that evidence.

Now, in this case, that would mean that fpasquinus would have to have, not only had access to the Consul's work computer but also, during the same time period, had access to the consul's home to have sent emails from there. Now, I don't know about you, but I'm always very aware of who's in my home, when and could instantly tell you if someone had physically accessed my computer.
 
 
Makes me super glad I have Norton. I can't recommend Norton enough to everyone. Norton Rules!

I just wanted to add that, though I used to have Norton, it still let several viruses through and I've never met a computer engineer who recommended it. Most seem to recommend AVG as much more reliable and which also has the advantage of being free :-)  i use it and Spybot and have never had any problems with either.

Vale
Flavia Lucilla Merula

Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68342 From: Lucius Quirinus Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
Salve Livia
 
If you carefully observe the Italian Geographical Map, you may notice that the Mafia or Mafia-Like organizations are rooted only in the territories that were once invaded and devastated by the Arabs. They "stayed" in Sicily for 2 Centuries, from Sicily they raided into Calabria , Puglia(Bari was the Capital of their "Sultanate", Lucera was the town were many Arabs were deported by the Normans after the liberations of Sicily) and Campania.
If you examine some more detailed historical fact, you will be surprised: Salento is the southernmost part of Puglia where the Dialect is different from the one (very harsh) spoken in the northern districts(Bari , Foggia, etc.)- Lecce(capital of Salento) is called "The Firenze of the South"-
.Salento, besides the fact that is a beautiful and clean land, is almost entirely free from the Mafia organizations that flourish in other areas of Puglia....Salento was never invaded and colonized  by the Arabs!
 
In my opinion, Mafia is a remnant of the Tribal social organization typical of the Original Arab Tribes that from the Arabian Peninsula started to invade and colonize the civilized Greek-Roman world under the strong push of their newly established Islamic religion( Holy War) in the 7th Century.
Mafia is a Barbaric regression to the Tribal Society in which mankind lived for million of years till the Bronze/Iron Age.
 
VALE OPTIME
 
LVCIVS Q. VESTA
 
 
 
 


--- Mar 30/6/09, livia_plauta <livia.plauta@...> ha scritto:

Da: livia_plauta <livia.plauta@...>
Oggetto: [Nova-Roma] Mafia and government forms
A: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Data: Martedì 30 giugno 2009, 20:27

Salve Semproni,
I know that history has surely advanced since I was in high school, but the accepted theory then was that mafia is a remnant of a medioeval form of government, not of ancient ones.

It is in feudalism that families constituded the only structure of power.
The "ancient" forms of government (Greek, Roman), were famous because of the ability to abstract the "good of the State" from the "good of some families".

Vale,
Livia
>
> Salvete
>  
> The problem, or even vitality of traditional mos, was that there was a history of informal agreement amongst families, groups of families, and classes over precedent customs of the ancestors and a legally recongnized history of informal disagreement amongst same.
> Think of it this way. There were shared memories of events: degrees of agreements and disagreements of what said events portend. One of the best professors I had (Sicilian, mafia family, Philly) once explained that ancient governments operated mainly along family allegiances and family interpretations of past family truces (law, customs, mos). His point was that the mafia was just the ancient form of government out of date.
>  
> Vale,
> A. Sempronius Regulus
>
> --- On Mon, 6/29/09, Maior <rory12001@. ..> wrote:
>
>
> From: Maior <rory12001@. ..>
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: THE SENATE IS CALLED INTO SESSION
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
> Date: Monday, June 29, 2009, 11:01 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> M. Hortensia Fl. Aureliano spd;
> here is the link to the Lex Didia Gemina; where on earth do you see that the tribunes could go forward with an action against a sitting magistrate?
> http://www.novaroma .org/nr/Lex_ Didia_Gemina_ de_potestate_ tribunicia_( Nova_Roma) - --
> I am asking Aureliane so we can avoid any problems like last time, let's try to work within traditional mos.
> optime vale
> Maior
> >
> > Fl. Galerius Aurelianus G. Equitio Cato sal.
> >
> > Your call has not been ignored and the Tribunes will call the Senate to investigate the possibility that fpasquinus and Complutensis Consul may be the same person.? Until that time, the business of the res publica must go on and should not be delayed.? Regardless of my personal feelings on this matter, the theory of innocent until proven guilty remains one of the fundamental applications within Nova Roma.
> >
> > Also, there is a tradition that most sitting magistrates are immune to a petitio actionis while in office.? There are some leges that allow for a magistrate to be removed for dereliction of duty and also if the identity of fpasquinus can be determined, the Tribunes could bring an action against that person under the lex Didia Gemina.? However, such actions should not be considered until there is proof(s) beyond reasonable doubt(s).
> >
> > Vale.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Gaius Equitius Cato <catoinnyc@ ..>
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
> > Sent: Mon, Jun 29, 2009 8:20 am
> > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: THE SENATE IS CALLED INTO SESSION
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Cato omnibus in foro SPD
> >
> > Salvete.
> >
> > I assume then that the tribunes have decided to ignore my appeal to them (without having bothered to inform me) and instead announce that the very person central to the whole issue will be presiding over the Senate.
> >
> > That makes sense.
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > Cato
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, "Tiberius Horatius Barbatus" <robbjaxon@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Tribunus Plebis Tiberius Horatius Barbatus Quiritibus SPD
> > >
> > > Salvete citizens of Nova Roma!
> > >
> > > The auspicia having been taken by Augur M. Moravius, and found to be propitious, Consul M. Curiatius Complutensis has called the Senate to order.
> >
>


Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68343 From: Lucius Coruncanius Cato Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: Re: Mafia and government forms
Salve,

May be you have some problem with English? I said "based", not "dedicated". Go on.

Di vos incolumem custodiant.
--
L. Coruncanius Cato
Aedilis Curulis
Scriba Consulis Hispaniae

--- El mié, 1/7/09, Robert Woolwine <l_cornelius_sulla@...> escribió:

De: Robert Woolwine <l_cornelius_sulla@...>
Asunto: [Nova-Roma] Re: Mafia and government forms
Para: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Fecha: miércoles, 1 julio, 2009 2:16

Actually it was dedicated to a medici...

His idol in it was Caesare Borgia.

The opening discourse of The Prince defines effective methods of governing in several types of principalities (for example, newly acquired vs. hereditary). Machiavelli explains to the reader, the "Magnificent Lorenzo de' Medici",[3] member of the Florentine Medici family, the best ways to acquire, maintain, and protect a state. The methods described therein have the general theme of acquiring necessary ends by any means.

From Wikipedia

I own 4 copies of the book. Including his Discourses on Livy.

Vale,

Sulla

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, Lucius Coruncanius Cato <l.coruncanius_ cato@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete,
>
> by the way Fabius Maximus, Machiavelli' s Prince was not based on any italian prince. Go on lecturing someone else...again.
>
> Di vos incolumem custodiant.
>
> --
>
> L. Coruncanius Cato
>
> Aedilis Curulis
>
> Scriba Consulis Hispaniae
>
> --- El mar, 30/6/09, livia_plauta <livia.plauta@ ...> escribió:
>
> De: livia_plauta <livia.plauta@ ...>
> Asunto: [Nova-Roma] Re: Mafia and government forms
> Para: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
> Fecha: martes, 30 junio, 2009 11:06
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Salve Maxime,
>
>
>
> >
>
> > I have always felt the reason why the Costa Nostra is considered an
>
> > offshoot of the Roman familia system ...
>
>
>
> By whom?
>
>
>
> >
>
> > The head of the family has Potestas over everyone in the extended family.
>
> > Loyalty to the extended family was paramount, and betrayal was dealt with
>
> > harshly.
>
> >
>
> > Certainly Machiavelli saw the new merchant princes of the Italian City
>
> > States as the continuation of the Roman Famous Families if not in name at
>
> > least in deed.
>
>
>
> Machiavelli lived in a society that was not feudal. The Italian city-states had similar institutions to ancient Greek ones: they required loyalty to the State to be placed above loyalty to one's family. The evolution toward a system where families and individual rulers were more important never led to a totally feudal system.
>
> The Mafia (Cosa Nostra) was born in places where the feudal system (personal loyalty to one leader - a system with families pledging alliance to one another) persisted right until the industrial revolution.
>
>
>
> This is true of Sicily, but also of Japan or Russia, which makes the relationship quite obvious.
>
>
>
> Vale,
>
> Livia
>


Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68344 From: Lucius Coruncanius Cato Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: Re: THE SENATE IS CALLED INTO SESSION
Salve!

Nobody expects the Gualterian Inquisition!
And remember their bunch of weapons LOL

Di vos incolumem custodiant.
--
L. Coruncanius Cato
Aedilis Curulis
Scriba Consulis Hispaniae

--- El mié, 1/7/09, livia_plauta <livia.plauta@...> escribió:

De: livia_plauta <livia.plauta@...>
Asunto: [Nova-Roma] Re: THE SENATE IS CALLED INTO SESSION
Para: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Fecha: miércoles, 1 julio, 2009 10:12

Salvete,
yes, Gualterus has a talent for inquisition. He already demonstrated that earlier with Lentulus.
I think he was born in the wrong historical period. A great talent inadequately rewarded!

Valete,
Livia
>
> C. Petronius Gualtero sal.,
>
> > Why Complutensis did the fraud is obvious--he wanted to insult and attack people without having his name attached to it. As for me, this isn't about any "dream", but a statement of fact--Complutensis is finished. He will never be trusted in office again. This is unfortunate, but completely his own fault.
>
> You seem as expeditive as were the Spanish Inquisition.
>
> You are not judge and nothing is proved.
>
> Vale.
> C. Petronius Dexter
>


Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68345 From: iulius sabinus Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
SALVE AMICE!
 
Thanks. Interesting post.
 
VALE BENE,
T. Iulius Sabinus
 


 
"Every individual is the architect of his own fortune" - Appius Claudius


--- On Wed, 7/1/09, Lucius Quirinus <ostiaaterni@...> wrote:

From: Lucius Quirinus <ostiaaterni@...>
Subject: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, July 1, 2009, 11:38 AM

Salve Livia
 
If you carefully observe the Italian Geographical Map, you may notice that the Mafia or Mafia-Like organizations are rooted only in the territories that were once invaded and devastated by the Arabs. They "stayed" in Sicily for 2 Centuries, from Sicily they raided into Calabria , Puglia(Bari was the Capital of their "Sultanate", Lucera was the town were many Arabs were deported by the Normans after the liberations of Sicily) and Campania.
If you examine some more detailed historical fact, you will be surprised: Salento is the southernmost part of Puglia where the Dialect is different from the one (very harsh) spoken in the northern districts(Bari , Foggia, etc.)- Lecce(capital of Salento) is called "The Firenze of the South"-
.Salento, besides the fact that is a beautiful and clean land, is almost entirely free from the Mafia organizations that flourish in other areas of Puglia....Salento was never invaded and colonized  by the Arabs!
 
In my opinion, Mafia is a remnant of the Tribal social organization typical of the Original Arab Tribes that from the Arabian Peninsula started to invade and colonize the civilized Greek-Roman world under the strong push of their newly established Islamic religion( Holy War) in the 7th Century.
Mafia is a Barbaric regression to the Tribal Society in which mankind lived for million of years till the Bronze/Iron Age.
 
VALE OPTIME
 
LVCIVS Q. VESTA
 
 
 
 


--- Mar 30/6/09, livia_plauta <livia.plauta@ gmail.com> ha scritto:

Da: livia_plauta <livia.plauta@ gmail.com>
Oggetto: [Nova-Roma] Mafia and government forms
A: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
Data: Martedì 30 giugno 2009, 20:27

Salve Semproni,
I know that history has surely advanced since I was in high school, but the accepted theory then was that mafia is a remnant of a medioeval form of government, not of ancient ones.

It is in feudalism that families constituded the only structure of power.
The "ancient" forms of government (Greek, Roman), were famous because of the ability to abstract the "good of the State" from the "good of some families".

Vale,
Livia
>
> Salvete
>  
> The problem, or even vitality of traditional mos, was that there was a history of informal agreement amongst families, groups of families, and classes over precedent customs of the ancestors and a legally recongnized history of informal disagreement amongst same.
> Think of it this way. There were shared memories of events: degrees of agreements and disagreements of what said events portend. One of the best professors I had (Sicilian, mafia family, Philly) once explained that ancient governments operated mainly along family allegiances and family interpretations of past family truces (law, customs, mos). His point was that the mafia was just the ancient form of government out of date.
>  
> Vale,
> A. Sempronius Regulus
>
> --- On Mon, 6/29/09, Maior <rory12001@. ..> wrote:
>
>
> From: Maior <rory12001@. ..>
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: THE SENATE IS CALLED INTO SESSION
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
> Date: Monday, June 29, 2009, 11:01 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> M. Hortensia Fl. Aureliano spd;
> here is the link to the Lex Didia Gemina; where on earth do you see that the tribunes could go forward with an action against a sitting magistrate?
> http://www.novaroma .org/nr/Lex_ Didia_Gemina_ de_potestate_ tribunicia_( Nova_Roma) - --
> I am asking Aureliane so we can avoid any problems like last time, let's try to work within traditional mos.
> optime vale
> Maior
> >
> > Fl. Galerius Aurelianus G. Equitio Cato sal.
> >
> > Your call has not been ignored and the Tribunes will call the Senate to investigate the possibility that fpasquinus and Complutensis Consul may be the same person.? Until that time, the business of the res publica must go on and should not be delayed.? Regardless of my personal feelings on this matter, the theory of innocent until proven guilty remains one of the fundamental applications within Nova Roma.
> >
> > Also, there is a tradition that most sitting magistrates are immune to a petitio actionis while in office.? There are some leges that allow for a magistrate to be removed for dereliction of duty and also if the identity of fpasquinus can be determined, the Tribunes could bring an action against that person under the lex Didia Gemina.? However, such actions should not be considered until there is proof(s) beyond reasonable doubt(s).
> >
> > Vale.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Gaius Equitius Cato <catoinnyc@ ..>
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
> > Sent: Mon, Jun 29, 2009 8:20 am
> > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: THE SENATE IS CALLED INTO SESSION
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Cato omnibus in foro SPD
> >
> > Salvete.
> >
> > I assume then that the tribunes have decided to ignore my appeal to them (without having bothered to inform me) and instead announce that the very person central to the whole issue will be presiding over the Senate.
> >
> > That makes sense.
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > Cato
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, "Tiberius Horatius Barbatus" <robbjaxon@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Tribunus Plebis Tiberius Horatius Barbatus Quiritibus SPD
> > >
> > > Salvete citizens of Nova Roma!
> > >
> > > The auspicia having been taken by Augur M. Moravius, and found to be propitious, Consul M. Curiatius Complutensis has called the Senate to order.
> >
>



Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68346 From: marcushoratius Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: Kalendae Quinctiliae: Juno Regina of the Aventine
M. Moravius Piscinus cultoribus Deorum et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit: .

Hodie est Kalendae Quinctiliae; haec dies nefastus est: DIE SEPTIMI TE KALO, IUNO COVELLA natalis Junonis Reginae in Aventino; Faustae in Capitolino.

AUC 361 / 392 BCE: Dedication of the Temple of Juno Regina on the Aventine Hill.

During the long war with Vei, two events were to lead to Rome's victory. One was a prophecy and the other an evocation of the Etruscan Goddess Veia from Her city by the Roman commander Furius Camillus.

"Juno Regina, who in Veii now dwells, I pray, that after our victory You will follow us to our City, soon to become Your City as well, where a holy precinct worthy of Your dignity will be built to receive You." ~ Titus Livius 5.21.3


AUC 704 / 49 BCE: Dedication of the Temple of Fausta Felicitas on the Capitoline Hill.

The only thing that could really be said of the Temple of Felicitas mentioned in the fasti Antiates as being on the Capitolium is that it was neither of the other two known temples by that name, and thus it is thought to refer instead to the Temple of Fausta Felicitas. The two other temples of Felicitas were that in the Vicus Tuscus and the one built by Lepidus in the Forum Romanorum.

"[The Senate] assigned to [Julius Caesar] the charge of filling the Pontine marshes, cutting a canal through the Peloponnesian isthmus, and constructing a new Curia, since that of Hostilius, although repaired, had been demolished [by Sulla]. The reason assigned for its destruction was that a temple of Felicitas was to be built there, which Lepidus, indeed, brought to completion while master of the horse; but their real purpose was that the name of Sulla should not be preserved on it, and that another Curia for the Senate, newly constructed, might be named the Julian, even as they had called the month in which he was born July, and one of the tribes, selected by lot, the Julian." ~ Dio Cassius 44.5.1-2

Caesar began preparation for the temple when he demolished the Curia Hostilia of Sulla in 44 BCE, just before his assassination. An earlier Temple of Felicitas had been built in the Velabrum by L. Licinius Lucullus after his campaign in Spain 151-150 BCE (Suetonius, Life of Julius Caesar 37.2). It was there in the Vicus Tuscus, during Caesar's triumph of 46 BCE, held for his victories in Gaul, that "on the first day of the triumph a portent far from good fell to his lot: the axle of the triumphal car broke down directly opposite the temple of Felicitas built by Lucullus, so that he had to complete the rest of the course in another. (ibid; Dio 43.21.1). Built from the spoils from Spain, Lucullus further adorned the temple with spoils taken from Greece. These included the Thespiades statues of the Muses by Praxiteles as well as a Venus by Praxiteles (Cicero, Verres 2.4.2.4; Pliny HN 34.19; 36.39). The earlier Temple of Felicitas was destroyed by fire during the reign of Claudius and never rebuilt. The Venus of Praxitales was destroyed in the fire, but the Muses were apparently rescued and set up in the Schools of Octavia, only to be destroyed later in a fire during the reign of Titus(Pliny HN 34.19; 36.4).

AUC 822 / 69 CE: Titus Vespasianus (Maior) hailed as imperator by the legions at Alexandria.

AUC 823 / 70 CE: Titus (Vespasianus Minor) began the assault on the outer walls enclosing the Temple of Jerusalem.

For past one and a half years the Romans had methodically taken the villages of Judea, driving the Jewish people into Jerusalem. In April Titus appeared before the city with four Roman legions, a large contingent of Syrian auxiliaries and additional troops from allied kingdoms. Titus spent two weeks building a wall around Jerusalem, preventing the city from receiving supplies. Those who were caught trying to escape the city were crucified in full view of the populace. In late April Titus launched a barrage against the outer wall, breaching the northern suburb called Bezetha. The Jews had built another wall behind this first wall, and it too was breached five days later. The Jews counter attacked, winning back the inner wall. It therefore took Titus to regain this northern wall and raze Bezetha. In late May each of the four legions were building ramparts. Two were thrown up against the western hill of the Upper City of Jerusalem, while two other ramparts were placed against fort Antonia that was located just north of the wall enclosing the Temple. Digging tunnels beneath these ramparts, the Jews managed to set them on fire. The scarcity of timber in the area forced the Romans to go further afield for supplies, but in three weeks they had built four more ramparts, this time all being built against the walls of the Antonia. Battering rams soon had the walls collapse, the Romans then finding that yet another wall lay behind it. A hand-picked assault team of eleven men, led by a Syrian named Sabinus managed to get inside the Antonia, but they were then cut down by the defenders. Two days later an assault at night took the Antonia in later June. The way to the Temple enclosure wall lay open. It was on the outer wall of the Temple enclosure that Titus began assaulting on the Kalendae Iuliae. Among the factitious defenders, this part of the city was held by the Zealots of Galilee led by John of Gischala, along with Idumaean insurgents, the same factions that had murdered the High Priest Ananus ben Ananus before the arrival of Titus. The next three weeks of July were then spent in operations against the outer wall of the temple complex, the wall of the outer court, and the wal between the outer and inner court of the Herodian Temple of Jerusalem. (Josephus, The Jewish War 5.427-6.197)


AUC 975 / 222 CE: "On the Kalends of July, because Alexander our Augustus was appointed consul for the first time, a supplication." ~ Fasti Duronis Europae


Our thought for today is from Epicurus, Vatican Sayings 48.

"While we are on the road, we must try to make what is before us better than what is past; when we come to the road's end, we feel a smooth contentment."
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68347 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: Re: The fpasquinus case
Norton is a HUGE resource hog.

On my two home PCs I use AVG. At my work, every computer in our office uses AVG.

They have a good free version but their registered version is awesome!

Vale,

Sulla

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Kirsteen Wright <kirsteen.falconsfan@...> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 3:09 AM, <violetphearsen@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Salvete,
> >
> > This lady lives in Wales and shortly after she had joined our group last
> > year, we received an email from her "husband" informing us that the lady had
> > passed away.
> >
>
> How awful! I can never understand the mentality of people who think things
> like that are funny
>
> >
> > It seems the lady had gone on vacation and while she was gone, her company
> > hired a temporary replacement to do her work. This temporary worker hacked
> > her way into the lady's work computer,......
> >
>
> > What we all learned from this was that there are people out there who are
> > vicious hackers and are all too proficient at what they do. They can even
> > manipulate IP's, making it very difficult to trace them. (I have no idea
> > how; this is just what the lady told us.) Very scary stuff!
> >
>
> Yes, hackers like that are really vicious. However, though a hacker can try
> to hide an IP it is, I believe, a different matter from giving a false one.
> Like your friend, I live in Britain and the courts here have accepted that.
> There were several cases of people being charged with illegally downloading
> files. Some people tried to deny the charge even handing over their
> computers. However it was ruled that if the originating command came from
> their IP, then someone had to be physically present there, at that time, to
> have done so. It was deemed impossible to fabricate that evidence.
>
> Now, in this case, that would mean that fpasquinus would have to have, not
> only had access to the Consul's work computer but also, during the same time
> period, had access to the consul's home to have sent emails from there. Now,
> I don't know about you, but I'm always very aware of who's in my home, when
> and could instantly tell you if someone had physically accessed my computer.
>
> >
> >
> > Makes me super glad I have Norton. I can't recommend Norton enough to
> > everyone. Norton Rules!
> >
>
> I just wanted to add that, though I used to have Norton, it still let
> several viruses through and I've never met a computer engineer who
> recommended it. Most seem to recommend AVG as much more reliable and which
> also has the advantage of being free :-) i use it and Spybot and have never
> had any problems with either.
>
> Vale
> Flavia Lucilla Merula
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68348 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: Re: Mafia and government forms
You missed this part:

His idol in it was Caesare Borgia.

Maybe your reading comprehension skills are lacking? Next time - read the full statement...m'kay?

Vale,

Sulla

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Lucius Coruncanius Cato <l.coruncanius_cato@...> wrote:
>
> Salve,
>
> May be you have some problem with English? I said "based", not "dedicated". Go on.
>
> Di vos incolumem custodiant.
>
> --
>
> L. Coruncanius Cato
>
> Aedilis Curulis
>
> Scriba Consulis Hispaniae
>
> --- El mié, 1/7/09, Robert Woolwine <l_cornelius_sulla@...> escribió:
>
> De: Robert Woolwine <l_cornelius_sulla@...>
> Asunto: [Nova-Roma] Re: Mafia and government forms
> Para: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Fecha: miércoles, 1 julio, 2009 2:16
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Actually it was dedicated to a medici...
>
>
>
> His idol in it was Caesare Borgia.
>
>
>
> The opening discourse of The Prince defines effective methods of governing in several types of principalities (for example, newly acquired vs. hereditary). Machiavelli explains to the reader, the "Magnificent Lorenzo de' Medici",[3] member of the Florentine Medici family, the best ways to acquire, maintain, and protect a state. The methods described therein have the general theme of acquiring necessary ends by any means.
>
>
>
> From Wikipedia
>
>
>
> I own 4 copies of the book. Including his Discourses on Livy.
>
>
>
> Vale,
>
>
>
> Sulla
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, Lucius Coruncanius Cato <l.coruncanius_ cato@> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Salvete,
>
> >
>
> > by the way Fabius Maximus, Machiavelli' s Prince was not based on any italian prince. Go on lecturing someone else...again.
>
> >
>
> > Di vos incolumem custodiant.
>
> >
>
> > --
>
> >
>
> > L. Coruncanius Cato
>
> >
>
> > Aedilis Curulis
>
> >
>
> > Scriba Consulis Hispaniae
>
> >
>
> > --- El mar, 30/6/09, livia_plauta <livia.plauta@ ...> escribió:
>
> >
>
> > De: livia_plauta <livia.plauta@ ...>
>
> > Asunto: [Nova-Roma] Re: Mafia and government forms
>
> > Para: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
>
> > Fecha: martes, 30 junio, 2009 11:06
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Salve Maxime,
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > I have always felt the reason why the Costa Nostra is considered an
>
> >
>
> > > offshoot of the Roman familia system ...
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > By whom?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > The head of the family has Potestas over everyone in the extended family.
>
> >
>
> > > Loyalty to the extended family was paramount, and betrayal was dealt with
>
> >
>
> > > harshly.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Certainly Machiavelli saw the new merchant princes of the Italian City
>
> >
>
> > > States as the continuation of the Roman Famous Families if not in name at
>
> >
>
> > > least in deed.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Machiavelli lived in a society that was not feudal. The Italian city-states had similar institutions to ancient Greek ones: they required loyalty to the State to be placed above loyalty to one's family. The evolution toward a system where families and individual rulers were more important never led to a totally feudal system.
>
> >
>
> > The Mafia (Cosa Nostra) was born in places where the feudal system (personal loyalty to one leader - a system with families pledging alliance to one another) persisted right until the industrial revolution.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > This is true of Sicily, but also of Japan or Russia, which makes the relationship quite obvious.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Vale,
>
> >
>
> > Livia
>
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68349 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: Re: THE SENATE IS CALLED INTO SESSION
Every citizen has the right to make up their own mind with regard to the evidence presented. This is why Gualterus posted his information here and on the back alley. Just like when I posted the identical IP statements...and then Caesar did the language analysis. All were posted on the ML and back alley for the full purview of the people so they can make up their minds.

We presented the information based on the data we had. Based on the information we presented of course our minds are made up. No evidence has been submitted to refute our evidence.

The inquisition is not an inquisition if it is true. It is just opening justice's blind eyes so She can see the light of day.

Vale,

Sulla


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Lucius Coruncanius Cato <l.coruncanius_cato@...> wrote:
>
> Salve!
>
> Nobody expects the Gualterian Inquisition!
> And remember their bunch of weapons LOL
>
> Di vos incolumem custodiant.
>
> --
>
> L. Coruncanius Cato
>
> Aedilis Curulis
>
> Scriba Consulis Hispaniae
>
> --- El mié, 1/7/09, livia_plauta <livia.plauta@...> escribió:
>
> De: livia_plauta <livia.plauta@...>
> Asunto: [Nova-Roma] Re: THE SENATE IS CALLED INTO SESSION
> Para: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Fecha: miércoles, 1 julio, 2009 10:12
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Salvete,
>
> yes, Gualterus has a talent for inquisition. He already demonstrated that earlier with Lentulus.
>
> I think he was born in the wrong historical period. A great talent inadequately rewarded!
>
>
>
> Valete,
>
> Livia
>
> >
>
> > C. Petronius Gualtero sal.,
>
> >
>
> > > Why Complutensis did the fraud is obvious--he wanted to insult and attack people without having his name attached to it. As for me, this isn't about any "dream", but a statement of fact--Complutensis is finished. He will never be trusted in office again. This is unfortunate, but completely his own fault.
>
> >
>
> > You seem as expeditive as were the Spanish Inquisition.
>
> >
>
> > You are not judge and nothing is proved.
>
> >
>
> > Vale.
>
> > C. Petronius Dexter
>
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68350 From: Jesse Corradino Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
Are you serious in this post?  You have nothing to back this up with besides a thinly veiled racism against Arabs.  Let me paraphrase: Arabs arrived in Italy and transformed southern Italians into primitive throw-backs.  Why not the Greeks?  Another "careful" observation of geography shows that the areas affected by organized crime in southern Italy were also colonized by the Greeks.  Indeed, Camorra and N'drghenta (spelling there) are actually Greek works!  So, at the very least, when the Arabs were manufacturing cave-Italians, they were at least clever enough to cover their presence by outwardly expressing themselves with the Greek language.  And, similar to your own argument, all of this is taking place literally thousands of years before mainstream scholarship claims anything related to organized crime in the modern sense was happening!
 

To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
From: ostiaaterni@...
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 08:38:29 +0000
Subject: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS



Salve Livia
 
If you carefully observe the Italian Geographical Map, you may notice that the Mafia or Mafia-Like organizations are rooted only in the territories that were once invaded and devastated by the Arabs. They "stayed" in Sicily for 2 Centuries, from Sicily they raided into Calabria , Puglia(Bari was the Capital of their "Sultanate", Lucera was the town were many Arabs were deported by the Normans after the liberations of Sicily) and Campania.
If you examine some more detailed historical fact, you will be surprised: Salento is the southernmost part of Puglia where the Dialect is different from the one (very harsh) spoken in the northern districts(Bari , Foggia, etc.)- Lecce(capital of Salento) is called "The Firenze of the South"-
.Salento, besides the fact that is a beautiful and clean land, is almost entirely free from the Mafia organizations that flourish in other areas of Puglia....Salento was never invaded and colonized  by the Arabs!
 
In my opinion, Mafia is a remnant of the Tribal social organization typical of the Original Arab Tribes that from the Arabian Peninsula started to invade and colonize the civilized Greek-Roman world under the strong push of their newly established Islamic religion( Holy War) in the 7th Century.
Mafia is a Barbaric regression to the Tribal Society in which mankind lived for million of years till the Bronze/Iron Age.
 
VALE OPTIME
 
LVCIVS Q. VESTA
 
 
 
 


--- Mar 30/6/09, livia_plauta <livia.plauta@...> ha scritto:

Da: livia_plauta <livia.plauta@...>
Oggetto: [Nova-Roma] Mafia and government forms
A: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Data: Martedì 30 giugno 2009, 20:27

Salve Semproni,
I know that history has surely advanced since I was in high school, but the accepted theory then was that mafia is a remnant of a medioeval form of government, not of ancient ones.

It is in feudalism that families constituded the only structure of power.
The "ancient" forms of government (Greek, Roman), were famous because of the ability to abstract the "good of the State" from the "good of some families".

Vale,
Livia
>
> Salvete
>  
> The problem, or even vitality of traditional mos, was that there was a history of informal agreement amongst families, groups of families, and classes over precedent customs of the ancestors and a legally recongnized history of informal disagreement amongst same.
> Think of it this way. There were shared memories of events: degrees of agreements and disagreements of what said events portend. One of the best professors I had (Sicilian, mafia family, Philly) once explained that ancient governments operated mainly along family allegiances and family interpretations of past family truces (law, customs, mos). His point was that the mafia was just the ancient form of government out of date.
>  
> Vale,
> A. Sempronius Regulus
>
> --- On Mon, 6/29/09, Maior <rory12001@. ..> wrote:
>
>
> From: Maior <rory12001@. ..>
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: THE SENATE IS CALLED INTO SESSION
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
> Date: Monday, June 29, 2009, 11:01 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> M. Hortensia Fl. Aureliano spd;
> here is the link to the Lex Didia Gemina; where on earth do you see that the tribunes could go forward with an action against a sitting magistrate?
> http://www.novaroma .org/nr/Lex_ Didia_Gemina_ de_potestate_ tribunicia_( Nova_Roma) - --
> I am asking Aureliane so we can avoid any problems like last time, let's try to work within traditional mos.
> optime vale
> Maior
> >
> > Fl. Galerius Aurelianus G. Equitio Cato sal.
> >
> > Your call has not been ignored and the Tribunes will call the Senate to investigate the possibility that fpasquinus and Complutensis Consul may be the same person.? Until that time, the business of the res publica must go on and should not be delayed.? Regardless of my personal feelings on this matter, the theory of innocent until proven guilty remains one of the fundamental applications within Nova Roma.
> >
> > Also, there is a tradition that most sitting magistrates are immune to a petitio actionis while in office.? There are some leges that allow for a magistrate to be removed for dereliction of duty and also if the identity of fpasquinus can be determined, the Tribunes could bring an action against that person under the lex Didia Gemina.? However, such actions should not be considered until there is proof(s) beyond reasonable doubt(s).
> >
> > Vale.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Gaius Equitius Cato <catoinnyc@ ..>
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
> > Sent: Mon, Jun 29, 2009 8:20 am
> > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: THE SENATE IS CALLED INTO SESSION
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Cato omnibus in foro SPD
> >
> > Salvete.
> >
> > I assume then that the tribunes have decided to ignore my appeal to them (without having bothered to inform me) and instead announce that the very person central to the whole issue will be presiding over the Senate.
> >
> > That makes sense.
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > Cato
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, "Tiberius Horatius Barbatus" <robbjaxon@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Tribunus Plebis Tiberius Horatius Barbatus Quiritibus SPD
> > >
> > > Salvete citizens of Nova Roma!
> > >
> > > The auspicia having been taken by Augur M. Moravius, and found to be propitious, Consul M. Curiatius Complutensis has called the Senate to order.
> >
>






Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that’s right for you.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68351 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: Re: THE SENATE IS CALLED INTO SESSION
Lentulus himself said it was no inquisition, but a friendly inquiry. Why
must you persist in this barbaric lie?

--------------------------------------------------
From: "livia_plauta" <livia.plauta@...>
Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 3:12 AM
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: THE SENATE IS CALLED INTO SESSION

> Salvete,
> yes, Gualterus has a talent for inquisition. He already demonstrated that
> earlier with Lentulus.
> I think he was born in the wrong historical period. A great talent
> inadequately rewarded!
>
> Valete,
> Livia
>>
>> C. Petronius Gualtero sal.,
>>
>> > Why Complutensis did the fraud is obvious--he wanted to insult and
>> > attack people without having his name attached to it. As for me, this
>> > isn't about any "dream", but a statement of fact--Complutensis is
>> > finished. He will never be trusted in office again. This is
>> > unfortunate, but completely his own fault.
>>
>> You seem as expeditive as were the Spanish Inquisition.
>>
>> You are not judge and nothing is proved.
>>
>> Vale.
>> C. Petronius Dexter
>>
>
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68352 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: Re: THE SENATE IS CALLED INTO SESSION
Heaven forbid Livia would actually tell the truth. But no. That would be too hard for her.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Q. Valerius Poplicola" <q.valerius.poplicola@...> wrote:
>
> Lentulus himself said it was no inquisition, but a friendly inquiry. Why
> must you persist in this barbaric lie?
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "livia_plauta" <livia.plauta@...>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 3:12 AM
> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: THE SENATE IS CALLED INTO SESSION
>
> > Salvete,
> > yes, Gualterus has a talent for inquisition. He already demonstrated that
> > earlier with Lentulus.
> > I think he was born in the wrong historical period. A great talent
> > inadequately rewarded!
> >
> > Valete,
> > Livia
> >>
> >> C. Petronius Gualtero sal.,
> >>
> >> > Why Complutensis did the fraud is obvious--he wanted to insult and
> >> > attack people without having his name attached to it. As for me, this
> >> > isn't about any "dream", but a statement of fact--Complutensis is
> >> > finished. He will never be trusted in office again. This is
> >> > unfortunate, but completely his own fault.
> >>
> >> You seem as expeditive as were the Spanish Inquisition.
> >>
> >> You are not judge and nothing is proved.
> >>
> >> Vale.
> >> C. Petronius Dexter
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68353 From: jester723 Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: General Information for Roman study topic
Greetings to all, I wonder if some members would be willing to share information and sources for a study of ancient Roman history. My professor has suggested either Caesar's Gallic and Civil Wars or the social stress/breakdown of the rule of law topic. The professor says that "Caesar's books are strikingly well-written and are one chess piece in an elaborate match he was playing with his rivals and friends in Rome". Can someone point to the other chess pieces? Thank you.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68354 From: Maxima Valeria Messallina Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: Re: The fpasquinus case
<<--- On Tue, 6/30/09, gualterus_graecus <waltms1@...> wrote:
Who at his work could possibly care about Nova Roma?>>
 
Who knows? Stranger things have happened.
 
Maxima Valeria Messallina


Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68355 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: Re: General Information for Roman study topic
In a message dated 7/1/2009 8:20:59 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, hmsw8482@... writes:
Greetings to all, I wonder if some members would be willing to share information and sources for a study of ancient Roman history. My professor has suggested either Caesar's Gallic and Civil Wars or the social stress/breakdown of the rule of law topic. The professor says that "Caesar's books are strikingly well-written and are one chess piece in an elaborate match he was playing with his rivals and friends in Rome". Can someone point to the other chess pieces? Thank you.
 
It actually depends on what you are trying to research.
 
"Commentaries" of course contains a Julian bias but the Latin is very simple and easy to read.  "Civil Wars" was not written by Julius Caesar but several of his lesser commanders.
 
Appian's (Appianus) "Roman History" is a broken narration of the late Republic from Sulla to Caesar's Principate (Empire) in Greek by an Greek functionary in Alexandria.
Because the Great Library of Alexander had been destroyed, lots of information had to be gleaned from biased sources in Rome.  He still is an important source for political maneuverings in the late Republic.  By reading Plutarch's "Lives of the Noble Romans and Greeks," about the individuals involved and Appian a pretty clear picture of late Republican Rome comes forth.  There are numerous English translations, the best is probably White's.
 
Q. Fabius Maximus 
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68356 From: Maxima Valeria Messallina Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: Re: The fpasquinus case
Salve, Merulla
 
<<--- On Wed, 7/1/09, Kirsteen Wright <kirsteen.falconsfan@...> wrote:
How awful! I can never understand the mentality of people who think things like that are funny>>
 
Isn't that just awful, and since she was new to the group and we did not know her so well, we were totally duped. We even took up a collection to send to a charity in her memory. Well, at least the money went to a good cause.

<<Yes, hackers like that are really vicious. However, though a hacker can try to hide an IP it is, I believe, a different matter from giving a false one.>>
 
That is true, although they can apparently manipulate IP's somehow, too. As if police didn't have enough to do...
 
<<Now, in this case, that would mean that fpasquinus would have to have, not only had access to the Consul's work computer but also, during the same time period, had access to the consul's home to have sent emails from there. Now, I don't know about you, but I'm always very aware of who's in my home, when and could instantly tell you if someone had physically accessed my computer.>>
 
Well the hacker was never in the lady's home, but gained access to her home computer through her work computer, or so we were told. She also got her cell phone number, too, and accessed it with that. Quite frankly, I don't understand it all, but it just creeps me out!
 
<<I just wanted to add that, though I used to have Norton, it still let several viruses through and I've never met a computer engineer who recommended it. Most seem to recommend AVG as much more reliable and which also has the advantage of being free :-)  i use it and Spybot and have never had any problems with either.>>
 
Norton is all new and improved and so far, I have had no problems at all. Have heard good things about AVG, too. The most important thing is to have one's pc protected and secure, because as Graecus said, once they are in... So the first line of defense is to keep them out altogether. I wonder if the ancient Romans had had computers, what God or Goddess would have been designated as the one to ask for protection of our pc's? A thought for all to ponder. LOL
 
Vale bene in pace Deorum,
 
Maxima Valeria Messallina

Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68357 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: Re: General Information for Roman study topic
Also the works of Cicero and especially if you can get ahold of his letters. Those are a fascinating read.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, QFabiusMaxmi@... wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 7/1/2009 8:20:59 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> hmsw8482@... writes:
>
> Greetings to all, I wonder if some members would be willing to share
> information and sources for a study of ancient Roman history. My professor has
> suggested either Caesar's Gallic and Civil Wars or the social
> stress/breakdown of the rule of law topic. The professor says that "Caesar's books are
> strikingly well-written and are one chess piece in an elaborate match he was
> playing with his rivals and friends in Rome". Can someone point to the
> other chess pieces? Thank you.
>
>
>
>
> It actually depends on what you are trying to research.
>
> "Commentaries" of course contains a Julian bias but the Latin is very
> simple and easy to read. "Civil Wars" was not written by Julius Caesar but
> several of his lesser commanders.
>
> Appian's (Appianus) "Roman History" is a broken narration of the late
> Republic from Sulla to Caesar's Principate (Empire) in Greek by an Greek
> functionary in Alexandria.
> Because the Great Library of Alexander had been destroyed, lots of
> information had to be gleaned from biased sources in Rome. He still is an
> important source for political maneuverings in the late Republic. By reading
> Plutarch's "Lives of the Noble Romans and Greeks," about the individuals
> involved and Appian a pretty clear picture of late Republican Rome comes forth.
> There are numerous English translations, the best is probably White's.
>
> Q. Fabius Maximus
> **************Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the
> grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000005)
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68358 From: lathyrus77 Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: Re: THE SENATE IS CALLED INTO SESSION
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Woolwine" <l_cornelius_sulla@...> wrote:

> The inquisition is not an inquisition if it is true. It is just opening justice's blind eyes so She can see the light of day.
>


I'm pretty sure Justice should remain blind. Her blindness is so that she is objective and isn't swayed by who the people are or what they look like.

-Anna
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68359 From: A. Sempronius Regulus Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: Re: Mafia and government forms
Salve,
 
Livia, not commenting directly on the topic below, but to add a bit, one reason historians say that the Greeks could not create a long-standing empire was they moved further along towards a state independent of families. One reason Rome did, they say, build a long lasting empire was it had not moved as far towards a state independent of families -- the state was more  like the rules of the arena between families.
 
We can see evidence of this in the nature of the cult to the emperor, imperial economics, and imperial law. First, the cult to the genius of the emperor involved a family or domestic altar, instead of a public one, because it was an extension to imperial and republican citizens of the emperor's paterfamilas. This is pointed out in several places but I refer you to Watson's book on Roman law and religion, The State, Law, and Religion in Pagan Rome. Second, (a) legally, the empire was the personal and private property of the emperor and/or his family (see Watson again).  Also, (b), the empire was legally a private corporation, backed by the equestrian order (with the exception of a few senatorial provinces in the early empire but gone as such, de facto, by the end of the reign of Tiberius) and armies, just like the East Indian Bay Company. Thus, (c) funds collected by this private corporation went to the personal and private bank of the caesars, and not the public bank. Again, see Watson on this. Third, imperial law was private law. Again, see Watson. We see how this translates to modern times with coutries under the Roman law tradition. For example, in Byzantine law, the empire was also the personal property of the Byzantine emperor even though public and sacred law fell to the municipalities and church. When Constantinople fell in 1453, "caesar" was transferred to Russia (to cut a long story short). Under Imperial Russian law (a Roman law tradition), the Russia had its public law (and flag) but the Russian Empire (which included more than Russia) was under private law and the personal property of the imperial family. Thus, when the Russian Revolution happened, the Romanov family transferred the bulk of its personal funds still in Russia (they put a lot away in foreign banks before this) to their personal accounts outside Russia. To the Soviets early surprise, they inherited a bankrupt country when they thought Russia was wealthy because legally, following Roman legal tradition, the empire and its wealth was the personal and private property of the Romanov family. Thus, funds in those accounts cannot be released today without a Romanov signature by an authorized executor. In the late 90s, when Marie Romanov received Russian federal permission to begin re-building the upper house of the Duma, the Assembly of Nobility, and have Russian aristocracy return and re-claim their estates, it was in exchange for the infusion of romanov funds -- with the understanding that this was a private Romanov investment in the Russian economy. BTW, she also got the right to work to put her son George on the throne as a limited monarch. Anyway, the ultimate point is that Imperial Russia, like its legal parent Byzantium, like its legal parent Rome, still had a strong family-centered polity in competition with the state. In the case of each of these three empires, that meant the empire and its law was a private, not public, corporation backed by the military, and the personal property of the ruling family (it ddid not belong to the citizens or the state).
 
BTW, I believe it was Cordus that highly recommended the Watson book to us about 3 to 5 years ago.
 
Vale,
A. Sempronius Regulus
--- On Tue, 6/30/09, livia_plauta <livia.plauta@...> wrote:

From: livia_plauta <livia.plauta@...>
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Mafia and government forms
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 9:06 PM

Salve Maxime,

>
> I have always felt the reason why the Costa Nostra is considered an
> offshoot of the Roman familia system ...

By whom?

>
> The head of the family has Potestas over everyone in the extended family.
> Loyalty to the extended family was paramount, and betrayal was dealt with
> harshly.
>
> Certainly Machiavelli saw the new merchant princes of the Italian City
> States as the continuation of the Roman Famous Families if not in name at
> least in deed.

Machiavelli lived in a society that was not feudal. The Italian city-states had similar institutions to ancient Greek ones: they required loyalty to the State to be placed above loyalty to one's family. The evolution toward a system where families and individual rulers were more important never led to a totally feudal system.
The Mafia (Cosa Nostra) was born in places where the feudal system (personal loyalty to one leader - a system with families pledging alliance to one another) persisted right until the industrial revolution.

This is true of Sicily, but also of Japan or Russia, which makes the relationship quite obvious.

Vale,
Livia


Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68360 From: Maior Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: Re: Mafia and government forms
Salvete Livia Semproni Regule;
fascinating discussion, sorry I have a cold so my brain isn't functioning enough to contribute.

Now that is interesting about the Romanovs, that was my field in college 19th Cent Russia and France. I wonder if George has any continuing y markers, there always was a dispute over Paul's legitimacy.
yes if you scroll down here you will see Cordus' list
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Reading_list_for_the_cultus_deorum#Religion_and_Law
vale
Maior


> Salve,
>  
> Livia, not commenting directly on the topic below, but to add a bit, one reason historians say that the Greeks could not create a long-standing empire was they moved further along towards a state independent of families. One reason Rome did, they say, build a long lasting empire was it had not moved as far towards a state independent of families -- the state was more  like the rules of the arena between families.
>  
> We can see evidence of this in the nature of the cult to the emperor, imperial economics, and imperial law. First, the cult to the genius of the emperor involved a family or domestic altar, instead of a public one, because it was an extension to imperial and republican citizens of the emperor's paterfamilas. This is pointed out in several places but I refer you to Watson's book on Roman law and religion, The State, Law, and Religion in Pagan Rome.. Second, (a) legally, the empire was the personal and private property of the emperor and/or his family (see Watson again).  Also, (b), the empire was legally a private corporation, backed by the equestrian order (with the exception of a few senatorial provinces in the early empire but gone as such, de facto, by the end of the reign of Tiberius) and armies, just like the East Indian Bay Company. Thus, (c) funds collected by this private corporation went to the personal and private bank of the caesars, and not
> the public bank. Again, see Watson on this. Third, imperial law was private law. Again, see Watson. We see how this translates to modern times with coutries under the Roman law tradition. For example, in Byzantine law, the empire was also the personal property of the Byzantine emperor even though public and sacred law fell to the municipalities and church. When Constantinople fell in 1453, "caesar" was transferred to Russia (to cut a long story short). Under Imperial Russian law (a Roman law tradition), the Russia had its public law (and flag) but the Russian Empire (which included more than Russia) was under private law and the personal property of the imperial family. Thus, when the Russian Revolution happened, the Romanov family transferred the bulk of its personal funds still in Russia (they put a lot away in foreign banks before this) to their personal accounts outside Russia. To the Soviets early surprise, they inherited a bankrupt country when
> they thought Russia was wealthy because legally, following Roman legal tradition, the empire and its wealth was the personal and private property of the Romanov family. Thus, funds in those accounts cannot be released today without a Romanov signature by an authorized executor. In the late 90s, when Marie Romanov received Russian federal permission to begin re-building the upper house of the Duma, the Assembly of Nobility, and have Russian aristocracy return and re-claim their estates, it was in exchange for the infusion of romanov funds -- with the understanding that this was a private Romanov investment in the Russian economy. BTW, she also got the right to work to put her son George on the throne as a limited monarch. Anyway, the ultimate point is that Imperial Russia, like its legal parent Byzantium, like its legal parent Rome, still had a strong family-centered polity in competition with the state. In the case of each of these three empires, that
> meant the empire and its law was a private, not public, corporation backed by the military, and the personal property of the ruling family (it ddid not belong to the citizens or the state).
>  
> BTW, I believe it was Cordus that highly recommended the Watson book to us about 3 to 5 years ago.
>  
> Vale,
> A. Sempronius Regulus
> --- On Tue, 6/30/09, livia_plauta <livia.plauta@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: livia_plauta <livia.plauta@...>
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Mafia and government forms
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 9:06 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Salve Maxime,
>
> >
> > I have always felt the reason why the Costa Nostra is considered an
> > offshoot of the Roman familia system ...
>
> By whom?
>
> >
> > The head of the family has Potestas over everyone in the extended family.
> > Loyalty to the extended family was paramount, and betrayal was dealt with
> > harshly.
> >
> > Certainly Machiavelli saw the new merchant princes of the Italian City
> > States as the continuation of the Roman Famous Families if not in name at
> > least in deed.
>
> Machiavelli lived in a society that was not feudal. The Italian city-states had similar institutions to ancient Greek ones: they required loyalty to the State to be placed above loyalty to one's family. The evolution toward a system where families and individual rulers were more important never led to a totally feudal system.
> The Mafia (Cosa Nostra) was born in places where the feudal system (personal loyalty to one leader - a system with families pledging alliance to one another) persisted right until the industrial revolution.
>
> This is true of Sicily, but also of Japan or Russia, which makes the relationship quite obvious.
>
> Vale,
> Livia
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68361 From: C. Maria Caeca Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: Re: The fpasquinus case
Salve Valeria Messalina,
 
Do you know, I have thought about which of the Gods would be assigned the job of protecting computers, from time to time, and (I hope I'm right on this one, and not projecting from Greek mythology), since Mercurius is the God of communications, especially those involving business, I'd ask him for help in most cases, I think.  Maybe Janus, too, since he is the guardian of doorways, I believe?  Of course, if I got hacked ... oh, then I'd be talking to someone else *entirely*, LOL!
 
Caeca
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68362 From: A. Sempronius Regulus Date: 2009-07-01
Subject: Imperial RussiaRe: [Nova-Roma] Re: Mafia and government forms
Salve,
 
I was invited to a formal Romanov reception in the Dolgorukov Palace years ago and to a Russian Pascha reception hosted by another Romanov in San Francisco in the 80s.
 
I had a grandfather that was artillery and fought with the White forces in the Russian Civil War until the forces he was with (Kolchak) withdrew into China in 22/23?. He said the Whites lost for two reasons. 1. The Reds controlled the center of the railroad network. 2. the White Armies did not get along. Siberian forces under Kolchak were republicans. The White Army of the South were staunch monarchists and anti-semites (fanatical monks joined them as "Jesus Squads" to go into areas with Jewish populations to wipe them out as the Whites lost ground even though it disrupted logistics, and at one point towards the end, Wrangel himself threatened them if they didn't stop because they were stirring up trouble that threatened his withdraw from the Crimea. These same groups along with remnant elements of Wrangels' forces, later when they were in Serbia, met with Hitler to form a Russian Liberation Army and the fanatical monks mapped out pockets of Jewish populations for the SS -- these same anti-semites were headed by what came to be called the "first Hierarchs" of the Russian Orthodox Church in Exile or ROCOR) with progroms that wasted military resources. The armies of the northwest were really national liberation White armies (Ukraine, Poles, Balts, and Finns).
 

--- On Wed, 7/1/09, Maior <rory12001@...> wrote:

From: Maior <rory12001@...>
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Mafia and government forms
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, July 1, 2009, 8:18 PM

Salvete Livia Semproni Regule;
fascinating discussion, sorry I have a cold so my brain isn't functioning enough to contribute.

Now that is interesting about the Romanovs, that was my field in college 19th Cent Russia and France. I wonder if George has any continuing y markers, there always was a dispute over Paul's legitimacy.
yes if you scroll down here you will see Cordus' list
http://www.novaroma .org/nr/Reading_ list_for_ the_cultus_ deorum#Religion_ and_Law
vale
Maior

> Salve,
>  
> Livia, not commenting directly on the topic below, but to add a bit, one reason historians say that the Greeks could not create a long-standing empire was they moved further along towards a state independent of families. One reason Rome did, they say, build a long lasting empire was it had not moved as far towards a state independent of families -- the state was more  like the rules of the arena between families.
>  
> We can see evidence of this in the nature of the cult to the emperor, imperial economics, and imperial law. First, the cult to the genius of the emperor involved a family or domestic altar, instead of a public one, because it was an extension to imperial and republican citizens of the emperor's paterfamilas. This is pointed out in several places but I refer you to Watson's book on Roman law and religion, The State, Law, and Religion in Pagan Rome.. Second, (a) legally, the empire was the personal and private property of the emperor and/or his family (see Watson again).  Also, (b), the empire was legally a private corporation, backed by the equestrian order (with the exception of a few senatorial provinces in the early empire but gone as such, de facto, by the end of the reign of Tiberius) and armies, just like the East Indian Bay Company. Thus, (c) funds collected by this private corporation went to the personal and private bank of the caesars, and not
> the public bank. Again, see Watson on this. Third, imperial law was private law. Again, see Watson. We see how this translates to modern times with coutries under the Roman law tradition. For example, in Byzantine law, the empire was also the personal property of the Byzantine emperor even though public and sacred law fell to the municipalities and church. When Constantinople fell in 1453, "caesar" was transferred to Russia (to cut a long story short). Under Imperial Russian law (a Roman law tradition), the Russia had its public law (and flag) but the Russian Empire (which included more than Russia) was under private law and the personal property of the imperial family. Thus, when the Russian Revolution happened, the Romanov family transferred the bulk of its personal funds still in Russia (they put a lot away in foreign banks before this) to their personal accounts outside Russia. To the Soviets early surprise, they inherited a bankrupt country when
> they thought Russia was wealthy because legally, following Roman legal tradition, the empire and its wealth was the personal and private property of the Romanov family. Thus, funds in those accounts cannot be released today without a Romanov signature by an authorized executor. In the late 90s, when Marie Romanov received Russian federal permission to begin re-building the upper house of the Duma, the Assembly of Nobility, and have Russian aristocracy return and re-claim their estates, it was in exchange for the infusion of romanov funds -- with the understanding that this was a private Romanov investment in the Russian economy. BTW, she also got the right to work to put her son George on the throne as a limited monarch. Anyway, the ultimate point is that Imperial Russia, like its legal parent Byzantium, like its legal parent Rome, still had a strong family-centered polity in competition with the state. In the case of each of these three empires, that
> meant the empire and its law was a private, not public, corporation backed by the military, and the personal property of the ruling family (it ddid not belong to the citizens or the state).
>  
> BTW, I believe it was Cordus that highly recommended the Watson book to us about 3 to 5 years ago.
>  
> Vale,
> A. Sempronius Regulus
> --- On Tue, 6/30/09, livia_plauta <livia.plauta@ ...> wrote:
>
>
> From: livia_plauta <livia.plauta@ ...>
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Mafia and government forms
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
> Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 9:06 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Salve Maxime,
>
> >
> > I have always felt the reason why the Costa Nostra is considered an
> > offshoot of the Roman familia system ...
>
> By whom?
>
> >
> > The head of the family has Potestas over everyone in the extended family.
> > Loyalty to the extended family was paramount, and betrayal was dealt with
> > harshly.
> >
> > Certainly Machiavelli saw the new merchant princes of the Italian City
> > States as the continuation of the Roman Famous Families if not in name at
> > least in deed.
>
> Machiavelli lived in a society that was not feudal. The Italian city-states had similar institutions to ancient Greek ones: they required loyalty to the State to be placed above loyalty to one's family. The evolution toward a system where families and individual rulers were more important never led to a totally feudal system.
> The Mafia (Cosa Nostra) was born in places where the feudal system (personal loyalty to one leader - a system with families pledging alliance to one another) persisted right until the industrial revolution.
>
> This is true of Sicily, but also of Japan or Russia, which makes the relationship quite obvious.
>
> Vale,
> Livia
>


Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68363 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2009-07-02
Subject: CALL for PAPERS Dining Divinely: Banqueting in Honor of the Gods
CALL for PAPERS

Dining Divinely: Banqueting in Honour of the Gods
July 7-9, 2010
The Department of Classics at the University of Canterbury,
Christchurch, New Zealand


Commensally marked a range of public and private occasions in the
ancient Mediterranean world. This colloquium will explore the evidence
for banquets and feasts held in conjunction with or as a form of
religious observance. Offers of papers from any branch of Classical
Studies concerning the following topics are welcomed:

• The archaeological evidence for banquets (architecture, furnishings,
food remains, representations of banqueting) with a religious dimension.
• Banquets associated with particular religious festivals or rites, or
part of private occasions with a religious dimension (eg funerals).
• Literary or epigraphical evidence for religious banqueting.

An abstract of 250 words indicating the thesis, evidence and conclusions
of the paper offered and including the name, academic affiliation,
postal address and email address of the presenter should be sent to the
conference organiser at the address below. Email attachments and
facsimiles are preferred. Papers will be 20-30 minutes long, depending
on the final number of participants.

Abstracts must be received on or before October 1, 2009. Authors of
accepted papers will be notified by December 15, 2009. The registration
fee will be around US $120/€85/ NZ $175 (postgraduates US $85/€60 /NZ
$125).

Organiser:
Alison B. Griffith, Department of Classics, University of Canterbury,
Private Bag 4800, Christchurch 8140 NEW ZEALAND
Ph: ++64-3-364-2987 ext. 8578
Fax: ++64-3-364-2576
alison.griffith@...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68364 From: Kveldulf@aol.com Date: 2009-07-02
Subject: Re: Digest Number 4626 - research starting points for the late Repub
<<3b. Re: General Information for Roman study topic
    Posted by: "QFabiusMaxmi@..." QFabiusMaxmi@... qfabiusmaximus
    Date: Wed Jul 1, 2009 9:35 am ((PDT))

 
In a message dated 7/1/2009 8:20:59 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
hmsw8482@... writes:

Greetings to all, I wonder if some members would be willing to  share 
information and sources for a study of ancient Roman history. My  professor has 
suggested either Caesar's Gallic and Civil Wars or the social  
stress/breakdown of the rule of law topic. The professor says that "Caesar's  
books are strikingly well-written and are one chess piece in an elaborate  match he was 
playing with his rivals and friends in Rome". Can someone point  to the 
other chess pieces? Thank you. 


It actually depends on what you are trying to research.
 
"Commentaries" of course contains a Julian bias but the Latin is very  
simple and easy to read.  "Civil Wars" was not written by Julius Caesar but  
several of his lesser commanders.
 
Appian's (Appianus) "Roman History" is a broken narration of the late  
Republic from Sulla to Caesar's Principate (Empire) in Greek by an Greek  
functionary in Alexandria.
<SNIP> By  reading Plutarch's "Lives of the Noble Romans and Greeks," about the individuals  
involved and Appian a pretty clear picture of late Republican  Rome comes forth.  >>

While related, the topics of the Gallic Wars, Civil Wars and the social/legal breakdown of thelate Republic are all pretty big topics
on their own, as was pointed out.

Plutarch is a good source, but keep in mind he was writing morality lessons using history as a backdrop so his Lives all in effect
use selective evidence to support his point about the moral character of the individual being written about.

Aside from the previous suggestions, if you choose the social/legal breakdown of the republic I would suggest Cicero's letters and speeches
collected in various editions) and Sallust's work on the Catalinian conspiracy (often collected with the Jugurthine War).

On the modern scholarship front, I've found Arthur Keaveney ("Sulla, the Last Republican", "The Army in the Roman Revolution" and others),
Ronald Syme (especially "The Roman Revolution") and Erich Gruen ("The Last Generation of the Roman Republic") to be good starting points.



Andy
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68365 From: marcushoratius Date: 2009-07-02
Subject: a. d. VI Nonas Quinctilias: The Analogy of the Belly
M. Moravius Piscinus cultoribus Deorum et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit: Diis bene iuvantibus sumus.

Hodie est ante diem VI Nonas Quinctilias; haec dies nefastus aterque est:

AUC 259 / 494 BCE: Resolution of the First Plebeian Secessio to Mons Sacer: The Analogy of the Belly

"The senate now ordered the legions to be marched out of the City on the pretext that war with the Aequi had recommenced. This step brought the revolution to a head. It is said that the first idea was to put the consuls to death that the men might be discharged from their oath; then, on learning that no religious obligation could be dissolved by a crime, they decided, at the instigation of a certain Sicinius, to ignore the consuls and withdraw to the Sacred Mount, which lay on the other side of the Anio, three miles from the City. This is a more generally accepted tradition than the one adopted by Piso that the secession was made to the Aventine. There, without any commander in a regularly entrenched camp, taking nothing with them but the necessities of life, they quietly maintained themselves for some days, neither receiving nor giving any provocation. A great panic seized the City, mutual distrust led to a state of universal suspense.

"The senate decided, therefore, to send as their spokesman Menenius Agrippa, an eloquent man, and acceptable to the plebs as being himself of plebeian origin. He was admitted into the camp, and it is reported that he simply told them the following fable in primitive and uncouth fashion. "In the days when all the parts of the human body were not as now agreeing together, but each member took its own course and spoke its own speech, the other members, indignant at seeing that everything acquired by their care and labour and ministry went to the belly, whilst it, undisturbed in the middle of them all, did nothing but enjoy the pleasures provided for it, entered into a conspiracy; the hands were not to bring food to the mouth, the mouth was not to accept it when offered, the teeth were not to masticate it. Whilst, in their resentment, they were anxious to coerce the belly by starving it, the members themselves wasted away, and the whole body was reduced to the last stage of exhaustion. Then it became evident that the belly rendered no idle service, and the nourishment it received was no greater than that which it bestowed by returning to all parts of the body this blood by which we live and are strong, equally distributed into the veins, after being matured by the digestion of the food." By using this comparison, and showing how the internal disaffection amongst the parts of the body resembled the animosity of the plebeians against the patricians, he succeeded in winning over his audience.

"Negotiations were then entered upon for a reconciliation. An agreement was arrived at, the terms being that the plebs should have its own magistrates, whose persons were to be inviolable, and who should have the right of affording protection against the consuls. And further, no patrician should be allowed to hold that office. Two "tribunes of the plebs" were elected, C. Licinius and L. Albinus. These chose three colleagues. It is generally agreed that Sicinius, the instigator of the secession, was amongst them, but who the other two were is not settled. Some say that only two tribunes were created on the Sacred Hill and that it was there that the lex sacrata was passed.

"During the secession of the plebeians Sp. Cassius and Postumius Cominius entered on their consulship. In their year of office a treaty was concluded with the Latin towns, and one of the consuls remained in Rome for the purpose. The other was sent to the Volscian war. He routed a force of Volscians from Antium, and pursued them to Longula, which he gained possession of. Then he advanced to Polusca, also belonging to the Volscians, which he captured, after which he attacked Corioli in great force." ~ Titus Livius 2.32-33


Today's thought is from Epictetus, Fragment 20:

"Those whose bodies are in good condition may withstand heat and cold; and so. Likewise, those whose souls are in the right condition can bear anger, and grief, and immoderate joy, and all other emotions."
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68366 From: livia_plauta Date: 2009-07-02
Subject: Re: THE SENATE IS CALLED INTO SESSION
Salve Sulla
>
> The inquisition is not an inquisition if it is true. It is just opening justice's blind eyes so She can see the light of day.
>
Words worthy of the inquisitor Eymerich.
I'm sure he thought the same, as he was "tweaking" proof of Ramon Lull's heresy.
"Hey, what does it matter if my 'proof' is carefully selected and a bit maipulated in order to prove this person's guilt. After all, I'm right, I'm on the side of Truth, and God is on my side".


Vale,
Livia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68367 From: L Julia Aquila Date: 2009-07-02
Subject: ANNOUNCEMENT of CONVENTUS NOVAE ROMAE in North America!
C O N V E N T U S N O V A E R O M A E

The first annual Conventus Novae Romae in North America will be held in America Austrorientalis on:

SEXTILIS • VII • VIII • IX MMDCCLXII a.u.c.
(7th, 8th & 9th August 2009)

Located in:
NASHVILLE, TENNESSEE, USA

All citizens are cordially invited to the First Annual North American Coventus Novae Romae for a weekend of exploration, education and camaraderie Roman –style! Come meet fellow citizens and find yourself immersed in classical culture, conversation and games sharing the unique experience of what it is to be Novi Romani.

RSVP now, don't delay and reserve your place!

The Conventus convenes Friday evening at the notable Blackstone Restaurant and Brewery for a leisurely meet and greet. This is in walking distance to the suggested hotels and the first destination after check in.
Saturday morning citizens will enjoy a Docent Tour of the Parthenon that includes an exact replica of the Greek original as it was in antiquity complete with a 42 ft. tall statue of Pallas Athena clad in 23.75 caret Italian gold leaf who supports in her hand a 6 ft. 4 in. statue of the Greek Goddess of Victory, Nike.
Saturday evening citizens will enjoy an old world repast at the Dinner Conference graced by a presentation by a notable citizen in the style of the Ancient Mystery Schools. Later that evening the games will continue!
Sunday, following lunch at a French Bistro, citizens will enjoy a private tour of the Belmont Mansion, a treasure of classical influences in art, culture and architecture.
The weekend will offer many activities Roman style including games, the words of the ancients in Latin and a special ceremony, a Religio Romana Ritual right in the heart of the Athens of the South.

To RSVP join the registration list at NR_Nashville_Conventus on Yahoo:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NR_Nashville_Conventus/

When you join you will receive a Registration form, which can be copied and posted on the registration list when you RSVP.
You may also send the Registration form in privatum to l_ivlia_aqvilaATyahooDOTcom but you still should post your RSVP on the registration list in the unlikely event it gets lost in email.
There is also a $35.00 US Coventus fee due by July 23rd which serves as a final confirmation of your RSVP, more information and assistance regarding payment in the yahoo registration list. The fee will be paid through Nova Roma pay pal, with a notation for US conventus, unless other arrangements are made.

The Agenda, Hotel Reservations, Travel and other info can be found on the Nova Roma wiki:
http://novaroma.org/nr/I_Conventus_Novae_Romae_(NA)

V I V A T N O V A R O M A!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68368 From: marcushoratius Date: 2009-07-03
Subject: a. d. V Nonas Quinctilias: dies natalis Titi Iulii Sabini
M. Moravius Horatianus cultoribus Deorum et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit: Di vos servavissent semper.

Hodie est ante diem V Nonas Quinctilias; haec dies nefastus est: dies natalis T. Iulii Sabini Pontifici.

Felices natalis, care Amice! Di dent tibi quae velis. Another year has passed, may the one ahead be happier and more prosperous for you than the last.


AUC 261 / 492 BCE: The Capture of Corioli

"Amongst the most distinguished of the young soldiers in the camp at that time was Cnaeus Marcius, a young man prompt in counsel and action, who afterwards received the epithet of Coriolanus. During the progress of the siege, while the Roman army was devoting its whole attention to the townspeople whom it had shut up within their walls, and not in the least apprehending any danger from hostile movements without, it was suddenly attacked by Volscian legions who had marched from Antium. At the same moment a sortie was made from the town. Marcius happened to be on guard, and with a picked body of men not only repelled the sortie but made a bold dash through the open gate, and after cutting down many in the part of the city nearest to him, seized some fire and hurled it on the buildings which abutted on the walls. The shouts of the townsmen mingled with the shrieks of the terrified women and children encouraged the Romans and dismayed the Volscians, who thought that the city which they had come to assist was already captured. So the troops from Antium were routed and Corioli taken. The renown which Marcius won so completely eclipsed that of the consul, that, had not the treaty with the Latins-which owing to his colleague's absence had been concluded by Sp. Cassius alone-been inscribed on a brazen column, and so permanently recorded, all memory of Postumius Cominius having carried on a war with the Volscians would have perished." ~ Titus Livius 2.33

AUC 262 /491 BCE: the exile of Coriolianus

"During the consulship of M. Minucius and A. Sempronius, a large quantity of corn was brought from Sicily, and the question was discussed in the senate at what price it should be given to the plebs. Many were of opinion that the moment had come for putting pressure on the plebeians, and recovering the rights which had been wrested from the senate through the secession and the violence which accompanied it. Foremost among these was Marcius Coriolanus, a determined foe to the tribunitian power. "If," he argued, "they want their corn at the old price, let them restore to the senate its old powers. Why, then, do I, after being sent under the yoke, ransomed as it were from brigands, see plebeian magistrates, why do I see a Sicinius in power? Am I to endure these indignities a moment longer than I can help? Am I, who could not put up with a Tarquin as king, to put up with a Sicinius? Let him secede now! let him call out his plebeians, the way lies open to the Sacred Hill and to other hills. Let them carry off the corn from our fields as they did two years ago; let them enjoy the scarcity which in their madness they have produced! I will venture to say that after they have been tamed by these sufferings, they will rather work as labourers themselves in the fields than prevent their being cultivated by an armed secession." It is not so easy to say whether they ought to have done this as it is to express one's belief that it could have been done, and the senators might have made it a condition of lowering the price of the corn that they should abrogate the tribunitian power and all the legal restrictions imposed upon them against their will.

"The senate considered these sentiments too bitter, the plebeians in their exasperation almost flew to arms. Famine, they said, was being used as a weapon against them, as though they were enemies; they were being cheated out of food and sustenance; the foreign corn, which fortune had unexpectedly given them as their sole means of support, was to be snatched from their mouths unless their tribunes were given up in chains to Cn. Marcius, unless he could work his will on the backs of the Roman plebeians. In him a new executioner had sprung up, who ordered them either to die or live as slaves. He would have been attacked on leaving the Senate-house had not the tribunes most opportunely fixed a day for his impeachment. This allayed the excitement, every man saw himself a judge with the power of life and death over his enemy. At first Marcius treated the threats of the tribunes with contempt; they had the right of protecting not of punishing, they were the tribunes of the plebs not of the patricians. But the anger of the plebeians was so thoroughly roused that the patricians could only save themselves by the punishment of one of their order. They resisted, however, in spite of the odium: they incurred, and exercised all the powers they possessed both collectively and individually. At first they attempted to thwart proceedings by posting pickets of their clients to deter individuals from frequenting meetings and conclaves. Then they proceeded in a body-you might suppose that every patrician was impeached-and implored the plebeians, if they refused to acquit a man who was innocent, at least to give up to them, as guilty, one citizen, one senator. As he did not put in an appearance on the day of trial, their resentment remained unabated, and he was condemned in his absence. He went into exile amongst the Volscians, uttering threats against his country, and even then entertaining hostile designs against it. The Volscians welcomed his arrival, and he became more popular as his resentment against his countrymen became more bitter, and his complaints and threats were more frequently heard. He enjoyed the hospitality of Attius Tullius, who was by far the most important man at that time amongst the Volscians and a life-long enemy of the Romans. Impelled each by similar motives, the one by old-standing hatred, the other by newly-provoked resentment, they formed joint plans for war with Rome." ~ Titus Livius 2.34-35


AUC 1077 / 324 CE: Constantinus I defeats Licinius at Hadrianopolis.

Constantinus provoked a civil war with his co-emperor Valerius Licinius Licinianus by massing his army across the Danube on the pretense of pursuing Sarmatians. Although outnumbered, Constantinus had more battle hardened legions and was able to win the battle. Licinius withdrew to Byzantium and crossed over into Anatolia. In September Crispus, son of Constantius, inflicted a naval defeat on Licinius that allowed Constantius to cross the Bosphorus and defeat Licinius for the final time at Chrysopolis. Constantia, sister of Constantinus and wife of Licinius, pleaded for her husband's life. But a year later Constantius broke his solemn oath, executing Licinius, and later Constantia's son as well. The result allowed Constantinus to found Nova Roma at Byzantium.


Our thought for today comes from Sextus, Sentences 37:

"Accustom your soul after it has conceived all that is great of divinity, to conceive something great of itself."
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68369 From: Titus Iulius Sabinus Date: 2009-07-03
Subject: Re: a. d. V Nonas Quinctilias: dies natalis Titi Iulii Sabini
SALVE MI AMICE!

Thank you very much.

Soon, there is one year from when you visited me in Dacia. I can't believe how the time fly but my memories are still fresh and I want to thank you again for the wonderful days we spent together.
I wish you all the best, my friend. May the Gods take care of you and I pray for your health and happiness.

Congratulations to your daughter and to you, happy grandfather! May the Gods watch over Sophia and Victoria and grant them happiness and prosperity.

OPTIME VALE,
T. Iulius Sabinus



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "marcushoratius" <MHoratius@...> wrote:
>
> M. Moravius Horatianus cultoribus Deorum et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit: Di vos servavissent semper.
>
> Hodie est ante diem V Nonas Quinctilias; haec dies nefastus est: dies natalis T. Iulii Sabini Pontifici.
>
> Felices natalis, care Amice! Di dent tibi quae velis. Another year has passed, may the one ahead be happier and more prosperous for you than the last.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68370 From: Lucius Quirinus Date: 2009-07-03
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS

SALVE AMICE
 
...do you regard people with whom you disagree as Not Serious?
 
Greeks colonized most of today's Central and Souther Italy. Plutarcus says that all Italic Peoples descend from Spartans(have you evere heard of Marsi, Samnites,Quirites/Sabines....) Our Italic Alphabet is very similar to the Greek Alphabet.
Greek brought to Italy their Culture,Theatres,Poets,Scholars, Mathematicians,Architects,Libraries,Philosophers.....Sicily was  the Center of the World 's Most advanced Culture and Civilization...and so was Northern Africa.....
 
By no means Greeks can be held responsible for Tribalism.
 
VALE
 
L.Q.VESTA
 
 
 
 
 
--- Mer 1/7/09, Jesse Corradino <woden66@...> ha scritto:

Da: Jesse Corradino <woden66@...>
Oggetto: RE: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
A: nova-roma@yahoogroups.com
Data: Mercoledì 1 luglio 2009, 16:10

Are you serious in this post?  You have nothing to back this up with besides a thinly veiled racism against Arabs.  Let me paraphrase: Arabs arrived in Italy and transformed southern Italians into primitive throw-backs.  Why not the Greeks?  Another "careful" observation of geography shows that the areas affected by organized crime in southern Italy were also colonized by the Greeks.  Indeed, Camorra and N'drghenta (spelling there) are actually Greek works!  So, at the very least, when the Arabs were manufacturing cave-Italians, they were at least clever enough to cover their presence by outwardly expressing themselves with the Greek language.  And, similar to your own argument, all of this is taking place literally thousands of years before mainstream scholarship claims anything related to organized crime in the modern sense was happening!
 

To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
From: ostiaaterni@ yahoo.it
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 08:38:29 +0000
Subject: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS



Salve Livia
 
If you carefully observe the Italian Geographical Map, you may notice that the Mafia or Mafia-Like organizations are rooted only in the territories that were once invaded and devastated by the Arabs. They "stayed" in Sicily for 2 Centuries, from Sicily they raided into Calabria , Puglia(Bari was the Capital of their "Sultanate", Lucera was the town were many Arabs were deported by the Normans after the liberations of Sicily) and Campania.
If you examine some more detailed historical fact, you will be surprised: Salento is the southernmost part of Puglia where the Dialect is different from the one (very harsh) spoken in the northern districts(Bari , Foggia, etc.)- Lecce(capital of Salento) is called "The Firenze of the South"-
.Salento, besides the fact that is a beautiful and clean land, is almost entirely free from the Mafia organizations that flourish in other areas of Puglia....Salento was never invaded and colonized  by the Arabs!
 
In my opinion, Mafia is a remnant of the Tribal social organization typical of the Original Arab Tribes that from the Arabian Peninsula started to invade and colonize the civilized Greek-Roman world under the strong push of their newly established Islamic religion( Holy War) in the 7th Century.
Mafia is a Barbaric regression to the Tribal Society in which mankind lived for million of years till the Bronze/Iron Age.
 
VALE OPTIME
 
LVCIVS Q. VESTA
 
 
 
 


--- Mar 30/6/09, livia_plauta <livia.plauta@ gmail.com> ha scritto:

Da: livia_plauta <livia.plauta@ gmail.com>
Oggetto: [Nova-Roma] Mafia and government forms
A: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
Data: Martedì 30 giugno 2009, 20:27

Salve Semproni,
I know that history has surely advanced since I was in high school, but the accepted theory then was that mafia is a remnant of a medioeval form of government, not of ancient ones.

It is in feudalism that families constituded the only structure of power.
The "ancient" forms of government (Greek, Roman), were famous because of the ability to abstract the "good of the State" from the "good of some families".

Vale,
Livia
>
> Salvete
>  
> The problem, or even vitality of traditional mos, was that there was a history of informal agreement amongst families, groups of families, and classes over precedent customs of the ancestors and a legally recongnized history of informal disagreement amongst same.
> Think of it this way. There were shared memories of events: degrees of agreements and disagreements of what said events portend. One of the best professors I had (Sicilian, mafia family, Philly) once explained that ancient governments operated mainly along family allegiances and family interpretations of past family truces (law, customs, mos). His point was that the mafia was just the ancient form of government out of date.
>  
> Vale,
> A. Sempronius Regulus
>
> --- On Mon, 6/29/09, Maior <rory12001@. ..> wrote:
>
>
> From: Maior <rory12001@. ..>
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: THE SENATE IS CALLED INTO SESSION
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
> Date: Monday, June 29, 2009, 11:01 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> M. Hortensia Fl. Aureliano spd;
> here is the link to the Lex Didia Gemina; where on earth do you see that the tribunes could go forward with an action against a sitting magistrate?
> http://www.novaroma .org/nr/Lex_ Didia_Gemina_ de_potestate_ tribunicia_( Nova_Roma) - --
> I am asking Aureliane so we can avoid any problems like last time, let's try to work within traditional mos.
> optime vale
> Maior
> >
> > Fl. Galerius Aurelianus G. Equitio Cato sal.
> >
> > Your call has not been ignored and the Tribunes will call the Senate to investigate the possibility that fpasquinus and Complutensis Consul may be the same person.? Until that time, the business of the res publica must go on and should not be delayed.? Regardless of my personal feelings on this matter, the theory of innocent until proven guilty remains one of the fundamental applications within Nova Roma.
> >
> > Also, there is a tradition that most sitting magistrates are immune to a petitio actionis while in office.? There are some leges that allow for a magistrate to be removed for dereliction of duty and also if the identity of fpasquinus can be determined, the Tribunes could bring an action against that person under the lex Didia Gemina.? However, such actions should not be considered until there is proof(s) beyond reasonable doubt(s).
> >
> > Vale.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Gaius Equitius Cato <catoinnyc@ ..>
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
> > Sent: Mon, Jun 29, 2009 8:20 am
> > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: THE SENATE IS CALLED INTO SESSION
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Cato omnibus in foro SPD
> >
> > Salvete.
> >
> > I assume then that the tribunes have decided to ignore my appeal to them (without having bothered to inform me) and instead announce that the very person central to the whole issue will be presiding over the Senate.
> >
> > That makes sense.
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > Cato
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, "Tiberius Horatius Barbatus" <robbjaxon@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Tribunus Plebis Tiberius Horatius Barbatus Quiritibus SPD
> > >
> > > Salvete citizens of Nova Roma!
> > >
> > > The auspicia having been taken by Augur M. Moravius, and found to be propitious, Consul M. Curiatius Complutensis has called the Senate to order.
> >
>






Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that’s right for you.

Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68371 From: Lucius Quirinus Date: 2009-07-03
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS

SALVE SABINE
 
Thanks for your appreciation.
 
I never forget my all my dear friends in Dacia!
 
VALE OPTIME
 
LVCIVS Q. VESTA
 

--- Mer 1/7/09, iulius sabinus <iulius_sabinus@...> ha scritto:

Da: iulius sabinus <iulius_sabinus@...>
Oggetto: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
A: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Data: Mercoledì 1 luglio 2009, 14:38

SALVE AMICE!
 
Thanks. Interesting post.
 
VALE BENE,
T. Iulius Sabinus
 


 
"Every individual is the architect of his own fortune" - Appius Claudius


--- On Wed, 7/1/09, Lucius Quirinus <ostiaaterni@ yahoo.it> wrote:

From: Lucius Quirinus <ostiaaterni@ yahoo.it>
Subject: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
Date: Wednesday, July 1, 2009, 11:38 AM

Salve Livia
 
If you carefully observe the Italian Geographical Map, you may notice that the Mafia or Mafia-Like organizations are rooted only in the territories that were once invaded and devastated by the Arabs. They "stayed" in Sicily for 2 Centuries, from Sicily they raided into Calabria , Puglia(Bari was the Capital of their "Sultanate", Lucera was the town were many Arabs were deported by the Normans after the liberations of Sicily) and Campania.
If you examine some more detailed historical fact, you will be surprised: Salento is the southernmost part of Puglia where the Dialect is different from the one (very harsh) spoken in the northern districts(Bari , Foggia, etc.)- Lecce(capital of Salento) is called "The Firenze of the South"-
.Salento, besides the fact that is a beautiful and clean land, is almost entirely free from the Mafia organizations that flourish in other areas of Puglia....Salento was never invaded and colonized  by the Arabs!
 
In my opinion, Mafia is a remnant of the Tribal social organization typical of the Original Arab Tribes that from the Arabian Peninsula started to invade and colonize the civilized Greek-Roman world under the strong push of their newly established Islamic religion( Holy War) in the 7th Century.
Mafia is a Barbaric regression to the Tribal Society in which mankind lived for million of years till the Bronze/Iron Age.
 
VALE OPTIME
 
LVCIVS Q. VESTA
 
 
 
 


--- Mar 30/6/09, livia_plauta <livia.plauta@ gmail.com> ha scritto:

Da: livia_plauta <livia.plauta@ gmail.com>
Oggetto: [Nova-Roma] Mafia and government forms
A: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
Data: Martedì 30 giugno 2009, 20:27

Salve Semproni,
I know that history has surely advanced since I was in high school, but the accepted theory then was that mafia is a remnant of a medioeval form of government, not of ancient ones.

It is in feudalism that families constituded the only structure of power.
The "ancient" forms of government (Greek, Roman), were famous because of the ability to abstract the "good of the State" from the "good of some families".

Vale,
Livia
>
> Salvete
>  
> The problem, or even vitality of traditional mos, was that there was a history of informal agreement amongst families, groups of families, and classes over precedent customs of the ancestors and a legally recongnized history of informal disagreement amongst same.
> Think of it this way. There were shared memories of events: degrees of agreements and disagreements of what said events portend. One of the best professors I had (Sicilian, mafia family, Philly) once explained that ancient governments operated mainly along family allegiances and family interpretations of past family truces (law, customs, mos). His point was that the mafia was just the ancient form of government out of date.
>  
> Vale,
> A. Sempronius Regulus
>
> --- On Mon, 6/29/09, Maior <rory12001@. ..> wrote:
>
>
> From: Maior <rory12001@. ..>
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: THE SENATE IS CALLED INTO SESSION
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
> Date: Monday, June 29, 2009, 11:01 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> M. Hortensia Fl. Aureliano spd;
> here is the link to the Lex Didia Gemina; where on earth do you see that the tribunes could go forward with an action against a sitting magistrate?
> http://www.novaroma .org/nr/Lex_ Didia_Gemina_ de_potestate_ tribunicia_( Nova_Roma) - --
> I am asking Aureliane so we can avoid any problems like last time, let's try to work within traditional mos.
> optime vale
> Maior
> >
> > Fl. Galerius Aurelianus G. Equitio Cato sal.
> >
> > Your call has not been ignored and the Tribunes will call the Senate to investigate the possibility that fpasquinus and Complutensis Consul may be the same person.? Until that time, the business of the res publica must go on and should not be delayed.? Regardless of my personal feelings on this matter, the theory of innocent until proven guilty remains one of the fundamental applications within Nova Roma.
> >
> > Also, there is a tradition that most sitting magistrates are immune to a petitio actionis while in office.? There are some leges that allow for a magistrate to be removed for dereliction of duty and also if the identity of fpasquinus can be determined, the Tribunes could bring an action against that person under the lex Didia Gemina.? However, such actions should not be considered until there is proof(s) beyond reasonable doubt(s).
> >
> > Vale.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Gaius Equitius Cato <catoinnyc@ ..>
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
> > Sent: Mon, Jun 29, 2009 8:20 am
> > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: THE SENATE IS CALLED INTO SESSION
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Cato omnibus in foro SPD
> >
> > Salvete.
> >
> > I assume then that the tribunes have decided to ignore my appeal to them (without having bothered to inform me) and instead announce that the very person central to the whole issue will be presiding over the Senate.
> >
> > That makes sense.
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > Cato
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, "Tiberius Horatius Barbatus" <robbjaxon@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Tribunus Plebis Tiberius Horatius Barbatus Quiritibus SPD
> > >
> > > Salvete citizens of Nova Roma!
> > >
> > > The auspicia having been taken by Augur M. Moravius, and found to be propitious, Consul M. Curiatius Complutensis has called the Senate to order.
> >
>




Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68372 From: Kirsteen Wright Date: 2009-07-03
Subject: Operation Ore and IP addresses
In view of the questions on here recently about how reliable are IP addresses I thought this might be of interest.

In 2002 the British Police launched Operation Ore an investigation into online paedophile sites.  As a result some 1451 people were arrested and convicted and placed on the sex offender's register.  They were found guilty of using their credit cards to pay to download illegal child pornography. There is currently a major appeal being launched against many of these convictions.

The argument is that credit card payments are not conclusive proof as these people could have been victims of identity fraud.  Therefore the cases where that alone was used and the police failed to establish the IP address should be dismissed as ONLY an IP address can be taken as conclusive proof.

Flavia Lucilla Merula
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68373 From: A. Sempronius Regulus Date: 2009-07-03
Subject: Re: Operation Ore and IP addresses
Salve,
Unless someone suffers from "legion disease": a poly-polar demon possession disorder. [Imagine Beetlejuice in a toga shaking all over saying, "I have demons running all through me!" logging on and off furiously as his various demons shoot off emails.] Its a remote possibility and a few here are really BIG on remote possibilities here.;-)
 
Vale,
A. Sempronius Regulus

--- On Fri, 7/3/09, Kirsteen Wright <kirsteen.falconsfan@...> wrote:

From: Kirsteen Wright <kirsteen.falconsfan@...>
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Operation Ore and IP addresses
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, July 3, 2009, 3:39 PM

In view of the questions on here recently about how reliable are IP addresses I thought this might be of interest.

In 2002 the British Police launched Operation Ore an investigation into online paedophile sites.  As a result some 1451 people were arrested and convicted and placed on the sex offender's register.  They were found guilty of using their credit cards to pay to download illegal child pornography. There is currently a major appeal being launched against many of these convictions.

The argument is that credit card payments are not conclusive proof as these people could have been victims of identity fraud.  Therefore the cases where that alone was used and the police failed to establish the IP address should be dismissed as ONLY an IP address can be taken as conclusive proof.

Flavia Lucilla Merula

Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68374 From: livia_plauta Date: 2009-07-03
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
Livia Plauta Quirino Vestae sal.

Amice! Before I had the time to greet you and thank you for the interesting theory, you got attacked by someone with the fallacious argument that the geographical expansion of Greeks has the same significance as those of Arabs.
But Jesse Corradino was not taking into account the other factors involved, that is the fact that, unlike Greeks, Arabs really had a tribal organization (not to talk about the time distance involved, which makes it unlikely that Greeks had this sort of influence).

Actually, according to some people, the reason for the persistence of latifundium and feudalism in some areas of Southern Italy can be traced all the way back to the Roman Empire. Apparently the distribution of latifundium in modern Italy, as opposed to small properties mirrors incredibly precisely that of late republican times already. The areas that had become ager publicus and given to the big patrician families, and where the local polulation had been turned into slaves, are the same where later people had typically the mentality of "subjecs" and not "citizens", as they were without rights and worked in latifundia.

Probably this relationship between Arab occupation and Mafia is useful in understanding the Italian distribution of the Mafia pehnomenon, but I still think the main relationship is between feudalism and Mafia, because that explains a lot more phenomena around the world.

Optime vale,
Livia


>
>
> SALVE AMICE
>  
> ...do you regard people with whom you disagree as Not Serious?
>  
> Greeks colonized most of today's Central and Souther Italy. Plutarcus says that all Italic Peoples descend from Spartans(have you evere heard of Marsi, Samnites,Quirites/Sabines....) Our Italic Alphabet is very similar to the Greek Alphabet.
> Greek brought to Italy their Culture,Theatres,Poets,Scholars, Mathematicians,Architects,Libraries,Philosophers.....Sicily was  the Center of the World 's Most advanced Culture and Civilization...and so was Northern Africa.....
>  
> By no means Greeks can be held responsible for Tribalism.
>  
> VALE
>  
> L.Q.VESTA
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> --- Mer 1/7/09, Jesse Corradino <woden66@...> ha scritto:
>
>
> Da: Jesse Corradino <woden66@...>
> Oggetto: RE: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
> A: nova-roma@yahoogroups.com
> Data: Mercoledì 1 luglio 2009, 16:10
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Are you serious in this post?  You have nothing to back this up with besides a thinly veiled racism against Arabs.  Let me paraphrase: Arabs arrived in Italy and transformed southern Italians into primitive throw-backs.  Why not the Greeks?  Another "careful" observation of geography shows that the areas affected by organized crime in southern Italy were also colonized by the Greeks.  Indeed, Camorra and N'drghenta (spelling there) are actually Greek works!  So, at the very least, when the Arabs were manufacturing cave-Italians, they were at least clever enough to cover their presence by outwardly expressing themselves with the Greek language.  And, similar to your own argument, all of this is taking place literally thousands of years before mainstream scholarship claims anything related to organized crime in the modern sense was happening!
>  
>
>
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
> From: ostiaaterni@ yahoo.it
> Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 08:38:29 +0000
> Subject: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Salve Livia
>  
> If you carefully observe the Italian Geographical Map, you may notice that the Mafia or Mafia-Like organizations are rooted only in the territories that were once invaded and devastated by the Arabs. They "stayed" in Sicily for 2 Centuries, from Sicily they raided into Calabria , Puglia(Bari was the Capital of their "Sultanate", Lucera was the town were many Arabs were deported by the Normans after the liberations of Sicily) and Campania.
> If you examine some more detailed historical fact, you will be surprised: Salento is the southernmost part of Puglia where the Dialect is different from the one (very harsh) spoken in the northern districts(Bari , Foggia, etc.)- Lecce(capital of Salento) is called "The Firenze of the South"-
> .Salento, besides the fact that is a beautiful and clean land, is almost entirely free from the Mafia organizations that flourish in other areas of Puglia....Salento was never invaded and colonized  by the Arabs!
>  
> In my opinion, Mafia is a remnant of the Tribal social organization typical of the Original Arab Tribes that from the Arabian Peninsula started to invade and colonize the civilized Greek-Roman world under the strong push of their newly established Islamic religion( Holy War) in the 7th Century.
> Mafia is a Barbaric regression to the Tribal Society in which mankind lived for million of years till the Bronze/Iron Age.
>  
> VALE OPTIME
>  
> LVCIVS Q. VESTA
>  
>  
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68375 From: livia_plauta Date: 2009-07-03
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
Salve Jesse,

according to my etymological dictionary (Devoto, the most famous one) "Camorra" comes from the mediterranean root *morra, meaning "flock", "gang", reiforced by "ca".

"'ndrangheta" seems to really come from the Greek "andragathia", but it could be derived just from the toponym "Andragathia Regio", which designated an area between Calabria and Lucania.

So, as you see only one of the words can be traced back to Greek roots, and even then, there's nothing strange about it, since Greek obviously left a huge inheritance in local dialects. This doesn't mean that the crimnal organization itself traces back to greek times, only that the word to indicate "virtus" in the local dialect was of Greek, and not Latin derivation.

Optime vale,
Livia
>
>
> Are you serious in this post? You have nothing to back this up with besides a thinly veiled racism against Arabs. Let me paraphrase: Arabs arrived in Italy and transformed southern Italians into primitive throw-backs. Why not the Greeks? Another "careful" observation of geography shows that the areas affected by organized crime in southern Italy were also colonized by the Greeks. Indeed, Camorra and N'drghenta (spelling there) are actually Greek works! So, at the very least, when the Arabs were manufacturing cave-Italians, they were at least clever enough to cover their presence by outwardly expressing themselves with the Greek language. And, similar to your own argument, all of this is taking place literally thousands of years before mainstream scholarship claims anything related to organized crime in the modern sense was happening!
>
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68376 From: Jesse Corradino Date: 2009-07-03
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
Hey I was aware that Arab society has a tribal structure.  The way the argument was originally presented was that because Arabs organized into tribes and conquered some of the areas were crime is organized in Southern Italy, that organized crime was therefore a reflection of this Arab tribal structure.  Since the only thing connecting one idea to the other in the argument is geographical location, I merely pointed out that one could just was easily make that same argument by noticing that organized crime also exists in the area historically known as magna graeca.  Moreover, it is also true that the organizations are known in some cases by Greek names. 
 
Thus, in light of other compelling evidence that hinges on the same deduction-that is not recognized as true-I felt the argument was so thin otherwise it seemed racist to me to attribute the existence of organized crime to Arabs.  Maybe it's because I'm American, but it happens quite often they're treated like boogeymen here, so I called it out.
 
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> From: livia.plauta@...
> Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 20:45:17 +0000
> Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
>
> Livia Plauta Quirino Vestae sal.
>
> Amice! Before I had the time to greet you and thank you for the interesting theory, you got attacked by someone with the fallacious argument that the geographical expansion of Greeks has the same significance as those of Arabs.
> But Jesse Corradino was not taking into account the other factors involved, that is the fact that, unlike Greeks, Arabs really had a tribal organization (not to talk about the time distance involved, which makes it unlikely that Greeks had this sort of influence).
>
> Actually, according to some people, the reason for the persistence of latifundium and feudalism in some areas of Southern Italy can be traced all the way back to the Roman Empire. Apparently the distribution of latifundium in modern Italy, as opposed to small properties mirrors incredibly precisely that of late republican times already. The areas that had become ager publicus and given to the big patrician families, and where the local polulation had been turned into slaves, are the same where later people had typically the mentality of "subjecs" and not "citizens", as they were without rights and worked in latifundia.
>
> Probably this relationship between Arab occupation and Mafia is useful in understanding the Italian distribution of the Mafia pehnomenon, but I still think the main relationship is between feudalism and Mafia, because that explains a lot more phenomena around the world.
>
> Optime vale,
> Livia
>
>
> >
> >
> > SALVE AMICE
> >  
> > ...do you regard people with whom you disagree as Not Serious?
> >  
> > Greeks colonized most of today's Central and Souther Italy. Plutarcus says that all Italic Peoples descend from Spartans(have you evere heard of Marsi, Samnites,Quirites/Sabines....) Our Italic Alphabet is very similar to the Greek Alphabet.
> > Greek brought to Italy their Culture,Theatres,Poets,Scholars, Mathematicians,Architects,Libraries,Philosophers.....Sicily was  the Center of the World 's Most advanced Culture and Civilization...and so was Northern Africa.....
> >  
> > By no means Greeks can be held responsible for Tribalism.
> >  
> > VALE
> >  
> > L.Q.VESTA
> >  
> >  
> >  
> >  
> >  
> > --- Mer 1/7/09, Jesse Corradino <woden66@...> ha scritto:
> >
> >
> > Da: Jesse Corradino <woden66@...>
> > Oggetto: RE: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
> > A: nova-roma@yahoogroups.com
> > Data: Mercoledì 1 luglio 2009, 16:10
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Are you serious in this post?  You have nothing to back this up with besides a thinly veiled racism against Arabs.  Let me paraphrase: Arabs arrived in Italy and transformed southern Italians into primitive throw-backs.  Why not the Greeks?  Another "careful" observation of geography shows that the areas affected by organized crime in southern Italy were also colonized by the Greeks.  Indeed, Camorra and N'drghenta (spelling there) are actually Greek works!  So, at the very least, when the Arabs were manufacturing cave-Italians, they were at least clever enough to cover their presence by outwardly expressing themselves with the Greek language.  And, similar to your own argument, all of this is taking place literally thousands of years before mainstream scholarship claims anything related to organized crime in the modern sense was happening!
> >  
> >
> >
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
> > From: ostiaaterni@ yahoo.it
> > Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 08:38:29 +0000
> > Subject: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Salve Livia
> >  
> > If you carefully observe the Italian Geographical Map, you may notice that the Mafia or Mafia-Like organizations are rooted only in the territories that were once invaded and devastated by the Arabs. They "stayed" in Sicily for 2 Centuries, from Sicily they raided into Calabria , Puglia(Bari was the Capital of their "Sultanate", Lucera was the town were many Arabs were deported by the Normans after the liberations of Sicily) and Campania.
> > If you examine some more detailed historical fact, you will be surprised: Salento is the southernmost part of Puglia where the Dialect is different from the one (very harsh) spoken in the northern districts(Bari , Foggia, etc.)- Lecce(capital of Salento) is called "The Firenze of the South"-
> > .Salento, besides the fact that is a beautiful and clean land, is almost entirely free from the Mafia organizations that flourish in other areas of Puglia....Salento was never invaded and colonized  by the Arabs!
> >  
> > In my opinion, Mafia is a remnant of the Tribal social organization typical of the Original Arab Tribes that from the Arabian Peninsula started to invade and colonize the civilized Greek-Roman world under the strong push of their newly established Islamic religion( Holy War) in the 7th Century.
> > Mafia is a Barbaric regression to the Tribal Society in which mankind lived for million of years till the Bronze/Iron Age.
> >  
> > VALE OPTIME
> >  
> > LVCIVS Q. VESTA
> >  
> >  
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/
>
> <*> Your email settings:
> Individual Email | Traditional
>
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>


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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68377 From: Jesse Corradino Date: 2009-07-03
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
Salve,
 
I wasn't being serious at all about organized crime having anything to do with Greeks.  I was trying to emphasize how the geographical location of an occupying people is not correlated to the phenomenon of organized crime. 
 
As for the meaning of Camorra, I was taught that it was a greek word, but that was informally, so I'll freely admit to being wrong about that.
 
Best,
JC

 
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> From: livia.plauta@...
> Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 21:03:17 +0000
> Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
>
> Salve Jesse,
>
> according to my etymological dictionary (Devoto, the most famous one) "Camorra" comes from the mediterranean root *morra, meaning "flock", "gang", reiforced by "ca".
>
> "'ndrangheta" seems to really come from the Greek "andragathia", but it could be derived just from the toponym "Andragathia Regio", which designated an area between Calabria and Lucania.
>
> So, as you see only one of the words can be traced back to Greek roots, and even then, there's nothing strange about it, since Greek obviously left a huge inheritance in local dialects. This doesn't mean that the crimnal organization itself traces back to greek times, only that the word to indicate "virtus" in the local dialect was of Greek, and not Latin derivation.
>
> Optime vale,
> Livia
> >
> >
> > Are you serious in this post? You have nothing to back this up with besides a thinly veiled racism against Arabs. Let me paraphrase: Arabs arrived in Italy and transformed southern Italians into primitive throw-backs. Why not the Greeks? Another "careful" observation of geography shows that the areas affected by organized crime in southern Italy were also colonized by the Greeks. Indeed, Camorra and N'drghenta (spelling there) are actually Greek works! So, at the very least, when the Arabs were manufacturing cave-Italians, they were at least clever enough to cover their presence by outwardly expressing themselves with the Greek language. And, similar to your own argument, all of this is taking place literally thousands of years before mainstream scholarship claims anything related to organized crime in the modern sense was happening!
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/
>
> <*> Your email settings:
> Individual Email | Traditional
>
> <*> To change settings online go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/join
> (Yahoo! ID required)
>
> <*> To change settings via email:
> mailto:Nova-Roma-digest@yahoogroups.com
> mailto:Nova-Roma-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>
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>


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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68378 From: A. Sempronius Regulus Date: 2009-07-03
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
Salve,
 
In ancient terms and perhaps up to the early 20th century, nations were organized crime. The question of definition was a matter a matter on size and who is defining. At one point, the papacy was mafia. Get an educated historical perspective! I'm tired of imbeciles.

--- On Sat, 7/4/09, Jesse Corradino <woden66@...> wrote:

From: Jesse Corradino <woden66@...>
Subject: RE: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
To: nova-roma@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, July 4, 2009, 1:34 AM

Salve,
 
I wasn't being serious at all about organized crime having anything to do with Greeks.  I was trying to emphasize how the geographical location of an occupying people is not correlated to the phenomenon of organized crime. 
 
As for the meaning of Camorra, I was taught that it was a greek word, but that was informally, so I'll freely admit to being wrong about that.
 
Best,
JC

 
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
> From: livia.plauta@ gmail.com
> Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 21:03:17 +0000
> Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
>
> Salve Jesse,
>
> according to my etymological dictionary (Devoto, the most famous one) "Camorra" comes from the mediterranean root *morra, meaning "flock", "gang", reiforced by "ca".
>
> "'ndrangheta" seems to really come from the Greek "andragathia" , but it could be derived just from the toponym "Andragathia Regio", which designated an area between Calabria and Lucania.
>
> So, as you see only one of the words can be traced back to Greek roots, and even then, there's nothing strange about it, since Greek obviously left a huge inheritance in local dialects. This doesn't mean that the crimnal organization itself traces back to greek times, only that the word to indicate "virtus" in the local dialect was of Greek, and not Latin derivation.
>
> Optime vale,
> Livia
> >
> >
> > Are you serious in this post? You have nothing to back this up with besides a thinly veiled racism against Arabs. Let me paraphrase: Arabs arrived in Italy and transformed southern Italians into primitive throw-backs. Why not the Greeks? Another "careful" observation of geography shows that the areas affected by organized crime in southern Italy were also colonized by the Greeks. Indeed, Camorra and N'drghenta (spelling there) are actually Greek works! So, at the very least, when the Arabs were manufacturing cave-Italians, they were at least clever enough to cover their presence by outwardly expressing themselves with the Greek language. And, similar to your own argument, all of this is taking place literally thousands of years before mainstream scholarship claims anything related to organized crime in the modern sense was happening!
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------ --------- --------- ------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Nova- Roma/
>
> <*> Your email settings:
> Individual Email | Traditional
>
> <*> To change settings online go to:
> http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Nova- Roma/join
> (Yahoo! ID required)
>
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> mailto:Nova- Roma-fullfeature d@yahoogroups. com
>
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>
> <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs. yahoo.com/ info/terms/
>


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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68379 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2009-07-03
Subject: Independence Day - WARNING! NOT A ROMAN TOPIC :)
OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one
people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with
another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and
equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle
them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they
should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created
equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable
Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of
Happiness. -- That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted
among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the
governed, -- That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive
of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish
it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such
principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall
seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness...

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in
General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the
world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by the
Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and
declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free
and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to
the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and
the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and
that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War,
conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all
other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And
for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the
protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our
Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor." - from the Declaration of
Independence, issued by the Second Continental Congress on 4 July AD 1776

On this day the United States observes the celebration of its
independence from the British Crown.

On June 11, AD 1776, a committee consisting of John Adams of
Massachusetts, Benjamin Franklin of Pennsylvania, Thomas Jefferson of
Virginia, Robert R. Livingston of New York, and Roger Sherman of
Connecticut (the "Committee of Five"), was formed to draft a suitable
declaration to frame this resolution. The committee decided that
Jefferson would write the draft, which he showed to Franklin and
Adams, who made several minor corrections. Jefferson then produced
another copy incorporating these changes, and the committee presented
this copy to the Continental Congress on June 28, 1776.

"It ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance, by solemn acts
of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and
parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires, and
illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this
time forward forever more." - John Adams, in a letter to his wife Abigail

Independence was declared on July 2, 1776, pursuant to the "Lee
Resolution" presented to the Continental Congress by Richard Henry Lee
of Virginia on June 7, 1776, which read (in part): "Resolved: That
these United Colonies are, and of right ought to be, free and
independent States, that they are absolved from all allegiance to the
British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the
State of Great Britain is, and ought to be, totally dissolved."

The full Declaration was rewritten somewhat in general session prior
to its adoption by the Continental Congress on July 4, 1776, at the
Pennsylvania State House. Word of the declaration reached London on
August 10.

Because it is dated July 4, 1776, many people believe it was signed on
that date — but it was actually signed on August 2 by most of the
delegates. The Liberty Bell was not rung to celebrate independence,
but to call the local inhabitants to hear the reading of the document
on July 8 - it acquired its name during the years before the US Civil
War when it was rung to call together meetings of abolitionists in
Philadelphia.

In 1777, British officers noted the firing of 13 guns, once at morning
and again as evening fell, on July 4 in Bristol, Rhode Island.
Philadelphia celebrated the first anniversary in a manner a modern
American would find quite familiar: an official dinner for the
Continental Congress, toasts, 13-gun salutes, speeches, prayers,
music, parades, troop reviews and fireworks. Ships were decked with
red, white and blue bunting. In 1778, General George Washington
marked the Fourth with a double ration of rum for his soldiers and an
artillery salute. Across the sea, ambassadors John Adams and Benjamin
Franklin held a dinner for their fellow Americans in Paris, France.

Despite the genesis of Independence Day, it is largely uncommon for
Americans to express anti-British sentiment on the day or to view it
as a celebration of anti-colonialism. Indeed, most Americans today
consider the United Kingdom their greatest ally. Rather than
specifically as an opportunity to commemorate the end of British rule
in the 18th century, contemporary Americans generally perceive the
holiday as a celebration of the U.S. itself and the political values
that motivated the United States Declaration of Independence,
including explicit principles of life, liberty and the pursuit of
happiness, and implicit ones of democracy, liberty, freedom, and
equality under the law.

Valete bene - and Happy Fourth of July!

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68380 From: Robert Levee Date: 2009-07-03
Subject: Re: Independence Day - WARNING! NOT A ROMAN TOPIC :)
Salve,

Thanks for the warning.It's like another topic that the meaning is lost for many people.Though I am not a Christian,Christmas would be that other holiday.Thanks for reminding those of us that are Americans here, why we actually celebrate this holiday.Happy 4th.

Vale,
Ap.Galerius Aurelianus

--- On Fri, 7/3/09, Gaius Equitius Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:

> From: Gaius Equitius Cato <catoinnyc@...>
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Independence Day - WARNING! NOT A ROMAN TOPIC :)
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Friday, July 3, 2009, 10:20 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> OSD C. Equitius Cato
>
>
>
> Salvete omnes!
>
>
>
> "When in the Course of human events, it becomes
> necessary for one
>
> people to dissolve the political bands which have connected
> them with
>
> another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the
> separate and
>
> equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of
> Nature's God entitle
>
> them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires
> that they
>
> should declare the causes which impel them to the
> separation.
>
>
>
> We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are
> created
>
> equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain
> unalienable
>
> Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit
> of
>
> Happiness. -- That to secure these rights, Governments are
> instituted
>
> among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of
> the
>
> governed, -- That whenever any Form of Government becomes
> destructive
>
> of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to
> abolish
>
> it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation
> on such
>
> principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to
> them shall
>
> seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness...
>
>
>
> We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of
> America, in
>
> General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge
> of the
>
> world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name,
> and by the
>
> Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly
> publish and
>
> declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought
> to be Free
>
> and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all
> Allegiance to
>
> the British Crown, and that all political connection
> between them and
>
> the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally
> dissolved; and
>
> that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power
> to levy War,
>
> conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and
> to do all
>
> other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right
> do. And
>
> for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance
> on the
>
> protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each
> other our
>
> Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor." - from the
> Declaration of
>
> Independence, issued by the Second Continental Congress on
> 4 July AD 1776
>
>
>
> On this day the United States observes the celebration of
> its
>
> independence from the British Crown.
>
>
>
> On June 11, AD 1776, a committee consisting of John Adams
> of
>
> Massachusetts, Benjamin Franklin of Pennsylvania, Thomas
> Jefferson of
>
> Virginia, Robert R. Livingston of New York, and Roger
> Sherman of
>
> Connecticut (the "Committee of Five"), was formed
> to draft a suitable
>
> declaration to frame this resolution. The committee decided
> that
>
> Jefferson would write the draft, which he showed to
> Franklin and
>
> Adams, who made several minor corrections. Jefferson then
> produced
>
> another copy incorporating these changes, and the committee
> presented
>
> this copy to the Continental Congress on June 28, 1776.
>
>
>
> "It ought to be commemorated as the day of
> deliverance, by solemn acts
>
> of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with
> pomp and
>
> parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires,
> and
>
> illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other,
> from this
>
> time forward forever more." - John Adams, in a letter
> to his wife Abigail
>
>
>
> Independence was declared on July 2, 1776, pursuant to the
> "Lee
>
> Resolution" presented to the Continental Congress by
> Richard Henry Lee
>
> of Virginia on June 7, 1776, which read (in part):
> "Resolved: That
>
> these United Colonies are, and of right ought to be, free
> and
>
> independent States, that they are absolved from all
> allegiance to the
>
> British Crown, and that all political connection between
> them and the
>
> State of Great Britain is, and ought to be, totally
> dissolved."
>
>
>
> The full Declaration was rewritten somewhat in general
> session prior
>
> to its adoption by the Continental Congress on July 4,
> 1776, at the
>
> Pennsylvania State House. Word of the declaration reached
> London on
>
> August 10.
>
>
>
> Because it is dated July 4, 1776, many people believe it
> was signed on
>
> that date — but it was actually signed on August 2 by
> most of the
>
> delegates. The Liberty Bell was not rung to celebrate
> independence,
>
> but to call the local inhabitants to hear the reading of
> the document
>
> on July 8 - it acquired its name during the years before
> the US Civil
>
> War when it was rung to call together meetings of
> abolitionists in
>
> Philadelphia.
>
>
>
> In 1777, British officers noted the firing of 13 guns, once
> at morning
>
> and again as evening fell, on July 4 in Bristol, Rhode
> Island.
>
> Philadelphia celebrated the first anniversary in a manner a
> modern
>
> American would find quite familiar: an official dinner for
> the
>
> Continental Congress, toasts, 13-gun salutes, speeches,
> prayers,
>
> music, parades, troop reviews and fireworks. Ships were
> decked with
>
> red, white and blue bunting. In 1778, General George
> Washington
>
> marked the Fourth with a double ration of rum for his
> soldiers and an
>
> artillery salute. Across the sea, ambassadors John Adams
> and Benjamin
>
> Franklin held a dinner for their fellow Americans in Paris,
> France.
>
>
>
> Despite the genesis of Independence Day, it is largely
> uncommon for
>
> Americans to express anti-British sentiment on the day or
> to view it
>
> as a celebration of anti-colonialism. Indeed, most
> Americans today
>
> consider the United Kingdom their greatest ally. Rather
> than
>
> specifically as an opportunity to commemorate the end of
> British rule
>
> in the 18th century, contemporary Americans generally
> perceive the
>
> holiday as a celebration of the U.S. itself and the
> political values
>
> that motivated the United States Declaration of
> Independence,
>
> including explicit principles of life, liberty and the
> pursuit of
>
> happiness, and implicit ones of democracy, liberty,
> freedom, and
>
> equality under the law.
>
>
>
> Valete bene - and Happy Fourth of July!
>
>
>
> Cato
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68381 From: lathyrus77 Date: 2009-07-03
Subject: Re: Independence Day - WARNING! NOT A ROMAN TOPIC :)
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Equitius Cato" <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> OSD C. Equitius Cato
>


It is quite unfortunate though, that despite the noble sentiments in the Declaration of Independence, it applied to white european straight men only. Women were still property of their husbands and fathers. Black men were still slaves and not considered human. American Indians were killed and massacred, and pushed off their land. And despite the progress of the last 200+ years our citizens are still not treated as equals.


I sometimes think it would've been better had the europeans not invaded the Americas at all. But we'll never know.

-Anna
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68382 From: Maior Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: the 4th of July and the 14th of July and the influence of Rome
Salvete;
seeing the topic of the U.S. revolution listed as 'not' a Roman topic quite surprised me! At least 2 revolutions; the U.S and the French are directly inspired by Rome!

The seminal "Federalist Papers" were written by Alexander Hamilton, John Jay, James Madison [presidents, secretary of the treasury, and chief justice of the u.s respectively] under the pseudonym 'Publius' in honour of Publius Valerius Poplicola!

John Addison wrote a play in 1712 titled "Cato" which dealt with the last days of Marcus Porcius Cato Uticensis. It was a great success in Britain, Ireland and the U.S. "Cato" was performed before George Washington's troops at Valley Forge!

So Bastille Day is coming up, all about French liberation, let's hear about the powerful influence of Rome on France!

Please add to this thread. The U.S. city Cincinnati, is taken from a society devoted to viewing George Washington as the modern Cicinnatus.
optime valete
M. Hortensia Maior


n Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "lathyrus77" <lathyrus77@...> wrote:
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Equitius Cato" <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> >
> > OSD C. Equitius Cato
> >
>
>
> It is quite unfortunate though, that despite the noble sentiments in the Declaration of Independence, it applied to white european straight men only. Women were still property of their husbands and fathers. Black men were still slaves and not considered human. American Indians were killed and massacred, and pushed off their land. And despite the progress of the last 200+ years our citizens are still not treated as equals.
>
>
> I sometimes think it would've been better had the europeans not invaded the Americas at all. But we'll never know.
>
> -Anna
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68383 From: C. Maria Caeca Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: Re: Independence Day - WARNING! NOT A ROMAN TOPIC :)
Salvete Omnes,

Thank you, Cato, for the reminder of why we, in the U.S. celebrate this day.
However ... it isn't, as far as I can see, an altogether unRoman topic. The
Government of the United States was constructed with Ancient Rome as its
model, although some things were changed and added to ensure that we didn't
fall into some of the same pitfalls. However, our basic structure would not
be unrecognizable to an Ancient Roman, and, I think, this is one reason why
we moderns are (well, a few of us, anyway) easily able to relate to Ancient
Rome, and wish to reconstruct Her institutions.

In many ways, Rome, particularly Republican Rome, stands at the heart of
our Government, and, therefore, at the heart of our concepts of citizenship
(either in the U.S. or NR), and patriotism, as well. We are Americans, and,
by a kind of adoptive heritage, Romans, as well.

Again, thanks, and a happy holiday to all my NR U.S. citizens, as well.

Most Respectfully,
C. Maria Caeca
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68384 From: Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: Re: Independence Day - WARNING! NOT A ROMAN TOPIC :)
Salve Cato et Avete Omnes;

For those of us in the United States, July 4th is a Holiday, which has
become, like so many others just another (albeit noisier) day-off from
work and a marketing opportunity for the Lords of Retail.

But the true meaning, which should be celebrated, is within the
document that Cato quoted in toto.

The men who gathered in congress to issue it were full of hope and
vision. Did they have their personal foibles? Of course, what human
doesn't. It dims not the PURPOSE.

Did the government come of that Declaration, the subsequent war, the
Articles of Confederation and finally the Constitution spring perfect
from their brows, like Athena from that of Zeus? Again, of course
not.

Great efforts many times have great missteps and errors appendant to them.

Great efforts are brought about by the actions of men; good, bad and
indifferent.

The conquest of this continent was no worse than most others in
history, and a darn sight better than many.

So, I shall lift Horn today and pour Libation to the Genii of the
Fourth of July; Liberty, Equality and the Rule of Law. May we all
remember that and try to bring them closer to reality every day.

mea sententia

Venator
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68385 From: Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: Nova Roma's Fallen...
Avete Omnes;

I was doing a websearch this morning in reference to a Pagan Veterans'
group with which I am corresponding.

In one of the blogs that mentioned the group, I found this in a quote
from another blog.

"We shall also recall Sgt. Joseph Ford, a Pagan member of Nova Roma
who died in Iraq last May."

I am gathering from the context that the death was in May, 2008. This
would have been during the time I was recovering from the pacemaker
surgery and the heart stoppages/blackouts, which led up to the
procedure.

If there was reportage about Sgt Ford at the time, I do not recall it.

Please, who was this?

=====================================
In amicitia et fide
Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator
Civis circa Quintilis MMDCCLI a.u.c.
and Veteran of the USAF Reserves.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68386 From: marcushoratius Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: a. d. IV Nonas Quinctilias: Coriolanus (continued)
M. Moravius Piscinus cultoribus Deorum et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit: Vivete in pace Deorum.

Hodie est ante diem IV Nonas Quinctilias; haec dies nefastus piaculum est: feriae ex senatus consulto quod eo die ara pacis Augustae in campo Martio constituta est Nerone et Varo consulibus; Corona occidit mane.

AUC 740 / 13 BCE: The Senate passed a decree that an altar of Peace be erected and annual sacrifices offered in commemoration of the return of Augustus from his victories in Spain and Gaul. The Ara Pacis was dedicated on three and a half years later on 30 January 9 BCE (Augustus, Res Gestae Divi Augusti 12.2-13; CIL 9.4192: Fasti Amiturnum; CIL 11.3592: Fasti Caerensis)

Garland Your elegant coiffure with Actium's laurel, Pax; be present and soften the whole world with Your gentleness. Let there be no enemies, no cause for triumphs. You will hand greater glory to our leaders than war can bring." ~ P. Ovidius Naso, Fasti 1.711-13


AUC 265 / 488 BCE: Coriolanus leads the Volsci against Rome

"By the unanimous vote of the states, the conduct of the war was entrusted to Attius Tullius and Cn. Marcius, the Roman exile, on whom their hopes chiefly rested. He fully justified their expectations, so that it became quite evident that the strength of Rome lay in her generals rather than in her army. He first marched against Cerceii, expelled the Roman colony and handed it over to the Volscians as a free city. Then he took Satricum, Longula, Polusca, and Corioli, towns which the Romans had recently acquired. Marching across country into the Latin road, he recovered Lavinium, and then, in succession, Corbio, Vetellia, Trebium Labici, and Pedum. Finally, he advanced from Pedum against the City. He entrenched his camp at the Cluilian Dykes, about five miles distant, and from there he ravaged the Roman territory. The raiding parties were accompanied by men whose business it was to see that the lands of the patricians were not touched; a measure due either to his rage being especially directed against the plebeians, or to his hope that dissensions might arise between them and the patricians. These certainly would have arisen- to such a pitch were the tribunes exciting the plebs by their attacks on the chief men of the State-had not the fear of the enemy outside-the strongest bond of union-brought men together in spite of their mutual suspicions and aversion. On one point they disagreed; the senate and the consuls placed their hopes solely in arms, the plebeians preferred anything to war. Sp. Nautius and Sex. Furius were now consuls. Whilst they were reviewing the legions and manning the walls and stationing troops m various places, an enormous crowd gathered together. At first they alarmed the consuls by seditious shouts, and at last they compelled them to convene the senate and submit a motion for sending ambassadors to Cn. Marcius. As the courage of the plebeians was evidently giving way, the senate accepted the motion, and a deputation was sent to Marcius with proposals for peace. They brought back the stern reply: If the territory were restored to the Volscians, the question of peace could be discussed; but if they wished to enjoy the spoils of war at their ease, he had not forgotten the wrongs inflicted by his countrymen nor the kindness shown by those who were now his hosts, and would strive to make it clear that his spirit had been roused, not broken, by his exile. The same envoys were sent on a second mission, but were not admitted into the camp. According to the tradition, the priests also in their robes went as suppliants to the enemies' camp, but they had no more influence with him than the previous deputation." ~ Titus Livius 2.39


Today's thought is taken from the Golden Sentences of Democritus 18:

"He who admonishes a man that fancies he has intellect labors in vain."
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68387 From: marcushoratius Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: Re: Nova Roma's Fallen...
M. Moravius Horatianus Pontifex Maximus P. Ulleri Venatori Senatori s. p. d.

Joseph Ford is Citizen Gaius Popillius Strabo. He passed during Lemuria, on 11 May 2008 to be exact, apparently as the result of an accident.

Last summer, after writing to his widow, I performed a little ritual by night on the Cerna River in Romania, invoking his genius to return to his home. I have since remembered him often, especially during Lemuria, along with our other deceased Citizens, as Maiores of Nova Roma.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator <famila.ulleria.venii@...> wrote:
>
> Avete Omnes;
>
> I was doing a websearch this morning in reference to a Pagan Veterans'
> group with which I am corresponding.
>
> In one of the blogs that mentioned the group, I found this in a quote
> from another blog.
>
> "We shall also recall Sgt. Joseph Ford, a Pagan member of Nova Roma
> who died in Iraq last May."
>
> I am gathering from the context that the death was in May, 2008. This
> would have been during the time I was recovering from the pacemaker
> surgery and the heart stoppages/blackouts, which led up to the
> procedure.
>
> If there was reportage about Sgt Ford at the time, I do not recall it.
>
> Please, who was this?
>
> =====================================
> In amicitia et fide
> Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator
> Civis circa Quintilis MMDCCLI a.u.c.
> and Veteran of the USAF Reserves.
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68388 From: Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: Re: Nova Roma's Fallen...
Salve Marcus Moravius, P Max:

On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 6:52 AM, Horatiuswrote:
>
> M. Moravius Horatianus Pontifex Maximus P. Ulleri Venatori Senatori s. p. d.
>
> Joseph Ford is Citizen Gaius Popillius Strabo. He passed during Lemuria, on
> 11 May 2008 to be exact, apparently as the result of an accident.
>
> Last summer, after writing to his widow, I performed a little ritual by
> night on the Cerna River in Romania, invoking his genius to return to his
> home. I have since remembered him often, especially during Lemuria, along
> with our other deceased Citizens, as Maiores of Nova Roma.
>

Thank you, Gaius Popillius will be added to my Role of Heroes Recognized.

As I pour libation today to the Genii of July 4th and its importance
to cives here in the US, I shall pour a libation to his.

in gratitude - Venator
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68389 From: Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: Re: Nova Roma's Fallen...
...and searching back through the list archives, I did recognize him
at the time, with this poem. - Venator (who has to do some other
searching to what else he's forgotten.)

Thoughts on the Burden - 12 SEP 2001

Row upon row the silent stones
Mark where they lie who burden bore
Tested under battle's harsh flames
Resting in peace freedom they gave

Gift they gave us those who lie still
Freedom to speak freedom to grow
Building our lives without concern
Knowing not when Burden is ours

Taking Burden handed to us
By those who sleep under the sod
Uneasy thing duty can be
Doing the Right sometimes is hard

Hard we must be sometimes in life
To win over Strife and Ordeal
Carry the hopes dreams and good will
Of Kinfolk's lives forward, we must

We must be strong when courage fails
Doing duty in face of odds
Win through the flames or maybe fall
Our marker too added to rows
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68390 From: Timothy or Stephen Gallagher Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: Independence Day - A ROMAN TOPIC :) The American Revolution as one o

Contrasting Models of Revolutionary Leadership

American Models of Revolutionary Leadership, Chapter 1


Daniel J. Elazar



No dimension of the revolutions of the modern world has been more crucial to their outcome than leadership. Think of Cromwell, Washington, Napoleon, and Lenin; of Samuel Adams, Robespierre, and Trotsky. The mere mention of the names clarifies the question. In an age of revolutions, in which every revolution at least pretends to democratic ends, it is the leadership of each that has made the difference.

 

In March 1783, George Washington assembled the officers of his army at Newburgh, New York, in a manner that most clearly expressed the standard for American revolutionary leadership. At one time every American schoolchild knew the story and at least the gist of Washington's words. The Continental Army, fresh from its victory over the British and in the aftermath of the peace treaty signed between the newly recognized United States of America and Great Britain, was instructed to disband without soldiers and officers receiving the pay due them. Feeling was running high in certain circles in the army that the Confederation Congress was unable to govern and that the only way to save the country was for the army to take power and install Washington as the head of a new government -- to transform Washington into a Cromwell. Washington, rejecting all such thoughts, used his farewell to his officers to drive the point home, beginning so dramatically by pulling out his spectacles to read his farewell address with the comment, "Gentlemen, you will permit me to put on my spectacles, for I have not only grown gray but almost blind in the service of my country," thereby bringing tears to the eyes of his companions and winning the day before he read a word of his text.1 The myth alone has inspired generations of Americans to respect their democratic institutions even when they seem to be functioning less than adequately.

 

In every aspect of his career George Washington set a new and special example of revolutionary leadership. His leadership was assured through his commanding moral posture rather than through any particular brilliance. His principal talent was in holding together semi-voluntary coalitions, military and political. Every office he held was gained through legitimate means, either election or appointment. Although he was personally ambitious, his ambitions were all directed to achieving position within a constitutional framework. Radical in his opposition to British encroachments on American liberties and in his advocacy of American independence, he was conservative in his emphasis on maintaining constitutional processes and institutional continuity as far as possible. Perhaps the best single word to describe his leadership is "sober." In this respect he is the exemplar of Martin Diamond's definition of the American Revolution as a "revolution of sober expectations.2

 

Unfortunately, Washington's standard for revolutionary leadership has not been widely emulated outside the United States, just as the American Revolution has been emulated far less than the French Revolution by other modern revolutionary movements. The standard for revolutionary leadership for most of the world has been set by Robespierre and Napoleon, not by Washington and his compatriots. Robespierre reflects the impatience of the ideologist fanatically committed to his cause with any restraints that might prevent him from achieving total social and political revolution. Napoleon is the model opportunist of great ambition and talent who emerges out of the wreckage of revolution to inherit power by brilliantly combining a certain lip-service to revolutionary ideals with implementation of those aspects of the original revolutionary program that advance his popularity and legitimacy while aborting all the others. What Robespierre and Napoleon were to France, Lenin and Stalin were to Russia. And the Russian Revolution is only the most prominent example of the repetition of the French revolutionary pattern. In this contrast the American Revolution gains even greater luster.



The Problem: Revolution and Great Ambition

Political ambition, like other kinds of ambition, is a basic human appetite. John Adams went so far as to suggest that ambition was the basic human appetite, which may have reflected more upon him than upon humanity but is not entirely wide of the mark.3 Like other human appetites, ambition is not evenly distributed among the population, but enough people with substantial political ambition are naturally drawn to political careers to make the problem of controlling it a major aspect of constitutional government. Indeed, the other founders of the United States were as aware of this problem as was Adams and devoted much of their concern for constitutional design to dealing with it. The Federalist emphasizes that the American Constitution is designed so that ambition will counteract ambition, that being a basic reason for introducing checks and balances into the political system.4

Revolutions by their very nature stimulate ambition and offer new opportunities for its exercise, especially, but not exclusively, for people new to the political arena. Moreover, revolutions are particularly attractive to those very few who have extraordinary political ambition. Such people are likely to exist in every generation, and if they cannot capitalize upon a revolution not of their own creation, they seek to generate one for their own purposes. Abraham Lincoln was acutely aware of this problem and provided one of the most felicitous discussions of it in his well-known address before the Young Men's Lyceum of Springfield:

That our government should have been maintained in its original form from its establishment until now [1838], is not much to be wondered at. It had many props to support it through that period, which now are decayed, and crumbled away. Through that period, it was felt by all, to be an undecided experiment; now, it is understood to be a successful one. Then, all that sought celebrity and fame, and distinction, expected to find them in the success of that experiment. Their all was staked upon it: -- their destiny was inseparably linked with it. Their ambition aspired to display before an admiring world, a practical demonstration of the truth of a proposition, which had hitherto been considered, at best no better than problematical; namely, the capability of a people to govern themselves. If they succeeded, they were to be immortalized; their names were to be transferred to counties and cities, and rivers and mountains; and to be revered and sung and toasted through all time. If they failed, they were to be called knaves and fools, and fanatics for a fleeting hour; then to sink and be forgotten. they succeeded. The experiment is successful; and thousands have won their deathless names in making it so. But the game is caught; and I believe it is true, that with the catching, end the pleasures of the chase. This field of glory is harvested, and the crop is already appropriated. But new reapers will arise, and they, too, will seek a field. It is to deny what the history of the world tells us is true, to suppose that men of ambition and talents will not continue to spring up amongst us. And, when they do, they will as naturally seek the gratification of their ruling passion, as others have so done before them. The question, then, is, can that gratification be found in supporting and maintaining an edifice that has been erected by others? Most certainly it cannot. Many great and good men sufficiently qualified for any task they should undertake, may ever be found, whose ambition would aspire to nothing beyond a seat in Congress, a gubernatorial or a presidential chair; but such belong not to the family of the lion, or the tribe of the eagle[.] What! think you these places would satisfy an Alexander, a Caesar, or a Napoleon? Never! Towering genius disdains a beaten path. It seeks regions hitherto unexplored. It sees no distinction in adding story to story, upon the monuments of fame, erected to the memory of others. It denies that it is glory enough to serve under any chief. It scorns to tread in the footsteps of any predecessor, however illustrious. It thirsts and burns for distinction; and, if possible, it will have it, whether at the expense of emancipating slaves, or enslaving freemen. Is it unreasonable then to expect that some man possessed of the loftiest genius, coupled with ambition sufficient to push it to its utmost stretch, will at some time, spring up among us? And when such a one does, it will require the people to be united with each other, attached to the government and laws, and generally intelligent, to successfully frustrate his designs.

Distinction will be his paramount object; and although he would as willingly, perhaps more so, acquire it by doing good as harm; yet, that opportunity being past, and nothing left to be done in the way of building up, he would set boldly to the task of pulling down.5

Lincoln properly suggests that the principal leaders in revolutionary times will not be people of ordinary political ambition but are likely to be of the family of the lion and the tribe of the eagle, who are potentially very dangerous to the body politic -- certainly to republican institutions. Most civil societies that have undergone revolutions have been unable to control this product of revolution. Of the four great revolutions of the modern epoch, only one, the American, was able to do so.

The English Revolution (civil war), despite the great tradition of the liberties of Englishmen and the extensive institutionalization of that tradition over the previous 450 years or more, produced Oliver Cromwell, who seized power in the name of the revolution and become a despot bound only by his sense of God's expectations and his inclination to benevolence. Neither was sufficient to prevent public dissatisfaction with his rule and the ultimate restoration of the monarchy. However lacking in character the Stuarts were, the institution of the monarchy was preferable for Englishmen, even most of those of the Puritan persuasion, to a despotism, however benevolent, that seemed to be heading toward a new dynasty.

I have already suggested that the French and Russian revolutions failed even more miserably from this perspective. The traditions of English liberty rather quickly brought down Cromwell's regime and in relatively short order transformed the monarchy as well. The French Revolution produced its Robespierre as quickly as the English civil war produced Cromwell. But since Robespierre lacked all sense of restraint, neither bowing to God nor possessing a spirit of benevolence, his excesses were exacerbated just as quickly, and his downfall was more rapid and painful. His fate did not dampen the ambitions of his successors, since the situation was structurally oriented to encourage similar excesses. Only their lack of talent prevented them from achieving similar dominance until Napoleon, who was both more talented and less principled than Robespierre, came along. Although he captured the imagination of France and has held the affections of his countrymen to this day, any objective observer would have to rank him as an utter betrayer of the revolution, even though he capitalized on revolutionary ideals to bleed France on a hundred battlefields and to assert his own absolute power as ruler of that hapless country.

Napoleon's ambition knew no bounds and was further fed by his assessment that, as an upstart, he needed one success after another to stay in power. As a result he overreached himself and fell, not only bringing back the Bourbons, but starting a tradition of French military defeat that has persisted ever since. (Since the early days of his ascendancy, France has not won a war against an equal power, except on the backs of its allies.) Moreover, the struggle between those who desired Napoleonic leadership and those who feared it kept France in turmoil for the next 150 years until Charles De Gaulle, the first French leader to follow the Washingtonian model, albeit with a French style, brought the French Revolution to a successful conclusion by securing the involvement of the full political spectrum in the writing of the Constitution of the Fifth Republic. Under his leadership a regime was inaugurated that had the consent of virtually all the French people for the first time since 1789.

The Russian Revolution brought an even worse result, since Russia had even fewer institutional and cultural restraints on the excesses of leaders than did France. When the Bolsheviks seized power in an absolutist state their leader, V.I. Lenin, simply used the existing absolutist tradition to become the Russian Revolution's Robespierre without suffering the same consequences. Lenin consolidated the power of his party and regime, leaving both intact to be inherited by Joseph Stalin after a relatively mild power struggle among possible successors.

Lenin destroyed any possibility of democratic republicanism and the introduction of civil liberties through his ruthless pursuit of revolutionary goals. Stalin reinforced the results and went beyond Lenin for reasons more personal than ideological. Between the two of them they generated quantitatively the greatest bloodbath of the twentieth century and possibly of all time, utterly aborting the ideals they presumably sought to advance and imposing upon the peoples of the Soviet Union a despotism more comprehensive and penetrating in its scope than any known before.

In each of these cases, the goals of the revolutionaries were admirable enough (if in some cases too utopian to stand a chance of success). They were perverted by the leaders spawned by the revolutions themselves. To state that is not sufficient, however, to explain why these revolutions spawned such leadership and the American Revolution did not. However important, leadership is but one factor in revolutionary situations. Two other factors of equal weight are the character of popular participation and the institutionalization of the results. Every revolution could and should be assessed in terms of the action of the public that made or joined it, in the character of its revolutionary leadership, and in the way its goals were subsequently institutionalized.

It is in the nature of revolutions that there will be popular involvement. That is what distinguishes them from rebellions or palace uprisings. So it is not the existence of popular participation, but its character and quality that constitutes the crucial question.

The characteristic manifestations of popular participation in the American Revolution were the town meetings and the committees of correspondence, the state militias and the Continental Line; in other words, self-organized means of popular expression. Contrast that with the principal image of the French Revolution, the Parisian mob storming the Bastille or cheering on the reign of terror; or the Russian Revolution with its "masses" storming the Winter Palace and other institutions of the regime. In both cases the reality matched the image. Mobs and masses were important, and the successful leaders were those demagogues who could capture them or manipulators who learned how to turn them out. Only the English civil war, with its Puritan congregations and New Model Army, presents an image similar to that of the American Revolution.

This is not to say there were no mobs in the American Revolution. There were some. The best known were relatively lighthearted, like the highly organized "mob" that dumped the tea into Boston harbor. Others -- those that attacked the Tories -- were far more vicious. But such mobs as emerged were small and local; their role was very minor in the overall scheme of things and had no real political significance. Certainly they did not influence the decisions of the governing bodies -- local, provincial or state, or continental.6

So, too, it may be added, were there occasional mobs during the English civil war, of the same relative unimportance. Cromwell seized power with an army behind him. Before that, the king was deposed, tried, and executed by Parliament.

Thus the American Revolution had a precedent for organized popular action, but the Americans carried it to new heights in scope and spread. This in turn ensured that all revolutionary leaders were, from the first, representative of organized bodies of citizens and were empowered to act through legal and orderly processes of election or appointment. Leaders did not rise to power through usurpation because they could not. There never was a stage of anarchy in the American Revolution; power was transferred in an orderly fashion; often the same bodies previously authorized to govern under the British simply disbanded within that framework and reconstituted themselves within the new one on the basis of local and statewide political compacts. Delegates to the Continental Congresses were elected by those in similar bodies, and the congresses were never rump forums.

The American revolutionaries went to great lengths to develop or sharpen a theory of popular sovereignty through political compact to ensure the legitimacy of their actions.7 But even more than theory, they maintained regular and proper procedures throughout the Revolution. Indeed, due process became a principal means of legitimization that was carried over into post-revolutionary American constitutionalism to maintain standards of right action by governments and legitimate channels for political and social change.

Stated in so few words, no doubt the picture seems prettier than it was in reality. There were, after all, Tories who were driven out of the country. Still, the American Revolution is the only one in which no one was executed for his political stance. While there might have been excesses in one locality or another, the overall picture presented here is the most accurate one.

The initial institutionalization of popular participation continued throughout the revolutionary period, from its pre-revolutionary stages beginning in 1763 through the writing and ratification of the 1787 Constitution and the organization of the new federal government in 1789. It occurred in every arena, from the most local to the national, and moved forward as the Revolution progressed and then had to be consolidated. Moreover, there were consistent and continuous relationships between the institutions of each arena that interacted with one another to empower each other to act. To an extraordinary degree what formally became the American political system after completion of the adoption of the Articles of Confederation in March 1781 was a political system from the first, from 1763 onward. Elsewhere I have discussed and documented some of the patterns of interaction leading up to the Declaration of Independence.8 Historians of the period have done the same in far greater depth with regard to the adoption of the Articles of Confederation and the Constitution of 1787. In the past few years there has been a spate of excellent studies on the interplay between local and state bodies with regard to the formation of the individual states and the adoption of their revolutionary era constitutions.9 In sum, American revolutionary leaders had to function not only within the context of ordered popular control, but within an institutionalized framework that protected the Revolution and did not allow counterrevolutionary leaders even to appear.

Contrast this with the other three great revolutions. The English civil war, which did quite well in popular participation and produced good leadership in the first stages of the conflict with the king and for the war itself, failed in its efforts at institutionalization almost from the first. Although the existing institutions, both governmental and religious, prevented any serious manifestations of anarchy, they were unable to work out either the additional institutional apparatus or the inter-institutional relationships necessary to create a new overarching framework. This led to the collapse of the revolutionary movement within half a generation of the outbreak of civil war and to the restoration of the old Stuart regime. Without proper institutionalization in the countrywide arena, national leadership became a matter of usurpation, however fine its motive, and ultimately a betrayal of the revolution.

The French Revolution began with a variety of efforts to institutionalize the popular uprising, but all failed until Napoleon usurped power and imposed an institutional structure on the country. In the interim, France went through a period of virtual anarchy for nearly ten years. There is a school of American historiography that is fond of referring to the middle years of the 1780s as years of anarchy in the United States, but in fact even the occasional rebellion of debtors was localized and sort and did not lead to a breakdown of the institutions of government anywhere -- a great contrast to the French situation, where successive governmental experiments had virtually no staying power during the country's period of anarchy. While institutions were formally established, the struggle for their control was so violent on every level that their existence became almost meaningless.

Napoleon, like Cromwell before him and Stalin after, usurped power from within, after being chosen for a revolutionary office in a legitimate way; but it was usurpation all the same, carried further than by either Cromwell or Stalin in the sense that Napoleon finally abolished the revolutionary regime and established an empire in its place. The Napoleonic regime also was brief; in the end the old regime was restored and the revolution substantially aborted until a lesser revolution took place half a generation later. Napoleon's great legacy to France was the internal institutional structure he imposed on the country in both the governmental and the religious spheres. Apparently the French were so shaken by anarchy that they preferred to preserve Napoleon's hierarchical structure rather than try any further efforts to diffuse power broadly among the citizenry.

The Russian Revolution was even more substantially dominated by a period of anarchy than was the French Revolution, albeit for a shorter time. The Russian revolutionaries had no state or local institutions to build upon or that they could even capture and turn to their own ends. In effect, they had to build the country from the bottom up, which they claimed to do through the various levels of soviets serving the different arenas within the Russian empire. But the extent of the Bolshevik revolution was such that these soviets themselves were ultimately repressed and replaced by Bolshevik institutions bearing the same name but without the popular base.

The Russian case is almost the reverse of the English; popular participation was anarchic, and institutionalization came at the end of the revolution in the most heavy-handed manner. The prior anarchy enabled a small but very determined elite, capable of being far more ruthless than Napoleon, not only to impose on the country their own will and a regime of their design, but essentially to exterminate or expel all possible threats to that regime. In Russia, the ancien regime did not come back; instead there was usurpation from within, with Stalin seizing power from his revolutionary colleagues. The result was not a reactionary but reformable regime, as in England, or a slower process of consolidation of the revolution's gains, as in France, but a totalitarian police state.

The English could gain from a situation in which there was proper popular participation but insufficient institutionalization even though it took a little longer to do so and the revolution itself failed. The French could survive in a situation in which there was neither proper popular participation nor proper institutionalization; it simply took them much longer to gain the results of the revolution. The worst result was in Russia, where there was a lack of proper popular participation but rapid institutionalization by a small elite to achieve the formal goals of the revolution, yet in such a way as to produce an utterly contrary actual result.



The Varieties of American Revolutionary Leadership
and Their Common Denominator

The major figures of the American Revolution can be classified into four categories: the revolutionaries, exemplified by Samuel Adams and Patrick Henry; the statesmen, exemplified by Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson; the constitutional architects, exemplified by John Adams and James Madison; and the father of his country, George Washington -- in a class by himself. While each category reflected the application of somewhat different talents to different tasks, what is most interesting for our purposes is the common denominator that kept them all within the American style of revolutionary leadership. Let us look at each in turn.



Revolutionaries

Revolutions are made by people, but people are made willing to initiate or join a revolution by a very select group of individuals capable of finding reasons why a revolution is necessary and then taking the action necessary to foment it. Two of the most prominent such figures in the American Revolution were Samuel Adams and Patrick Henry.

Samuel Adams (1722-1803), who lived to be eighty-one, was a professional politician throughout the revolutionary generation. He was the chief organizer of the opposition to the Stamp Act in Massachusetts and managed the Boston Tea Party. He is generally characterized as a "born revolutionary." He was a delegate to the Continental Congress throughout the active period of the war and signed the Declaration of Independence. At the same time he helped frame the Massachusetts constitution and was the author of its bill of rights. Although he opposed the federal Constitution, he did not retire from state politics, being elected lieutenant governor in 1789 and becoming governor in 1794, an office he held for three years.

The contrast between Samuel Adams as a revolutionary and revolutionary ideologist and similar figures from other major modern revolutions is striking in every respect. He was convinced of the rightness of his cause and the need to promote it with all the political and propaganda skills at his disposal. Adams did so because he viewed the people as capable of knowing their own interests, not as chained by habit and custom so that they had to be forcibly led to the right path even against their will, as is the view of most other revolutionaries. A clever user of mass action, he rejected mobs and carefully staged even his "mob" scenes so that those involved in them would maintain their control. He utterly rejected the notion of concentrating all power in the hands of the revolutionary elites, vigorously supporting checks and balances, federalism, and constitutionally protected rights. Adams' thought linked that of the Old Whigs or Commonwealthmen with Massachusetts Puritanism and the ideas of the Enlightenment. He and his fellow revolutionaries were as much bound by the political compact, indeed by the moral obligations of covenant, as anybody else, no matter how just their cause.10

Patrick Henry (1736-1700) was somewhat more incongruous as a revolutionary. Although he, like Adams, came from a modest background, early in his career he became a wealthy trial lawyer. He too was revolutionized by the Stamp Act and soon came to be considered the most dangerous demagogue in Virginia. Like Adams, he was uncompromising toward the British. He became the first governor of the Commonwealth of Virginia and served from 1776 to 1779. Subsequently he led the opposition to Virginia's ratification of the federal Constitution, for the same reasons as Adams, namely that it concentrated too much power in the hands of a distant government. Nevertheless, he also supported checks and balances, federalism, and individual rights as key elements in his political thought. Unlike Adams, Henry was not enamored of the details of politics, nor did he enjoy the routines of office. After 1794 he rejected a number of high offices offered to him, but in the year of his death he returned to the state legislature, this time as a Federalist, to support the new federal government against the Virginia Resolves. In his case too the combination is clear: a revolutionary in the American context meant one who stimulated popular action and then took on his responsibilities within the institutionalized framework of popular government.11

What is characteristic of both Adams and Henry is that both men not only encouraged popular action leading to revolution but made the transition to become major officeholders, in both cases governors of their commonwealths, during the revolutionary period and after the result was already institutionalized. They were very different from the kind of "professional revolutionaries" encountered in other modern revolutions (or in the American, in the person of Thomas Paine), whose talent was fomenting revolutions. Although both opposed the federal Constitution of 1787, they did so not because they were opposed to the institutionalization of the results of the Revolution, but because they were convinced that a different mode of institutionalization was more faithful to the revolutionary goals they espoused. Both men died peacefully after illustrious careers, honored by their fellows.

What was the fate of the revolutionaries who sparked the other great revolutions? The list of those who met violent deaths in the throes of revolution is not only long but comprehensive. Who among them died in bed? Indeed, who among them even made the transition to power for other than a brief revolutionary moment before being led off to the guillotine or the firing squad?



Statesmen

Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790) is the archetypal statesman of the American Revolution in myth and in reality. He played a prominent role in both the domestic and the foreign affairs of the fledgling republic and in the governance of his adopted Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. He was also the most famous American in the world at that time. As America's premier revolutionary diplomat, he too reflected a very different model than was to be found in other revolutions. In most of the other revolutions, professional diplomats with great personal ambition but no particular loyalty to any particular regime were co-opted by the revolutionary leadership to fulfill the tasks that Franklin took upon himself. As ideologists, the revolutionary elites were not prepared to trust anyone other than those entirely without ideas or convictions, mouthpieces who would serve any master. Franklin was anything but that.

Franklin's watchword was prudence, well-tuned to a revolution of sober expectations. One of his major domestic roles was to see to it that the Revolution's expectations remained sober. There too his skills were principally diplomatic, whether in the Continental Congress and the Constitutional Convention, in the drafting of Pennsylvania's first constitution, or in daily political affairs.

Franklin was another long-lived revolutionary. Already prominent and in his sixties at the beginning of the revolutionary generation, he spent the first third of that generation in London representing Pennsylvania and other colonies, and there he became convinced that revolution was inevitable. So he returned home to serve in the Continental Congress and as a member of the committee that drafted the Declaration of Independence, where he played his usual bridging role. He was sent back to Europe for the duration of the war and the peace negotiations, where he used his considerable diplomatic skills to become the architect of the crucial alliance with France. He returned in time to serve as a member of the Constitutional Convention of 1787, helping to negotiate the acceptance of its compromises. He died in 1790 at the age of eight-four, at once distinguished and beloved.12

If Franklin fairly reeked of prudence, Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826) presented himself as a radical. He was perhaps the most extremely ideological figure among the top leadership of the American Revolution, the only one to suggest semi-utopian programs for restructuring society. The very use of the term sounds out of place in comparison with other revolutions -- that too tells us something about the state of the American experience. Nevertheless, the two men had much in common besides their commitment to the cause of American liberty and the fact that they lived to almost the same age and died in pleasant surroundings after illustrious careers. Franklin was the prudent man who was a radical in the pursuit of liberty. Jefferson was the radical who was prudent in the pursuit of a stable republic. In today's terms, somewhat anachronistically, we can refer to both as "liberals." Both were Deists whose early training was within the framework of Calvinism or Reformed Protestantism -- Franklin was a descendent of Massachusetts Puritans and Jefferson a descendant of Scots from Ulster. To use another anachronism, both were intellectuals in public affairs.

Jefferson entered political life in 1769, while the revolutionary generation was still in its formative stage, and stayed active politically until the end of his presidency forty years later. He rose to national prominence in 1774 on the very eve of the Revolution and was sent to the Continental Congress the next year, where, as we all know, he was the principal author of the Declaration of Independence. He returned to Virginia almost immediately thereafter to participate in the restructuring of his native commonwealth along republican lines, serving in the state legislature and then as governor from 1779 to 1781. He left the governorship only because of his wife's illness and death.

Jefferson returned to the Confederation Congress two years later and played a major role in shaping the legislative landmarks of the confederation era, from the plan for decimal coinage through the Northwest Ordinance of 1784. He spent the five years from 1784 to 1789 representing the United States in France and hence missed the Constitutional Convention. This experience gave him a firsthand view of prerevolutionary France and the beginnings of the French Revolution.

Jefferson came back to the United States to serve as the first secretary of state in Washington's cabinet, then resigned when Washington opted for Hamiltonian policies. In cooperation with James Madison, he founded the Democratic Republican party, today, the Democratic party, the longest-lived popular political party in the world. He became his party's candidate for the presidency against John Adams in 1796. Although he lost to Adams, under the original terms of the federal Constitution he became vice-president. Since he was in the opposition, he spent little time in Washington, working instead to organize the party for the 1800 elections that brought him to the presidency, in which he served two terms, retiring in 1809 to Monticello. He remained there as an elder statesman until his death on July 4, 1826, the fiftieth anniversary of the Declaration of Independence.13

Significantly, Jefferson was highly disposed to support the French Revolution, not only in its earlier stages but through the 1790s. Indeed, he was accused by the Federalists of being a jacobin, and he did have strong sympathies in that direction, at least intellectually and from a distance. Like Franklin, he liked France, even if he was appalled by the poverty in French cities and the reactionary ways of the ancien regime. As an intellectual, he was attracted to French culture. His sympathies for the French Revolution, however, were manifested in most un-Jacobin ways. Thus his opposition to the Federalist administration of John Adams with regard to the undeclared sea war with France was expressed through the Virginia Resolves, which claimed that states could prevent the enforcement of federal laws they deemed unconstitutional, a position that went against the Jacobin spirit in every respect. Moreover, he was a most un-Jacobin president; the biggest "usurpation" he undertook was the Louisiana Purchase, for which he himself wanted to obtain a constitutional amendment. Fortunately his sagacity won the day, and he decided that it was too good a bargain to pass up, so he exercised the executive powers of his office to complete the purchase.

There was indeed a moment when the Federalists assumed that his election to the presidency meant a Jacobin takeover. Jefferson's victory was labeled by his supporters "the revolution of 1800." Discussion was rife in the country suggesting that the transfer of administration from the Federalist party to the Democratic Republicans would bring a Jacobin-style revolution in its train. Jefferson made deliberate efforts to disabuse people of any such notions, just as Washington had earlier rejected suggestions that he lead a military coup. In his first inaugural address he summarized his position, stating, "We are all Federalists, we are all Republicans." Thus Jefferson, supposedly the arch-revolutionary, first inaugurated the party system, which institutionalized ways to achieve change without revolution, and then presided over the transition of federal administrations from party to party with no disruption of the processes of government -- two of the crucial inventions of modern democracy.

As was noted above, none of the other three revolutions came close to succeeding in either regard. The English civil war offered a dynastic transition that failed because of the inappropriateness of Cromwell's son and heir, Richard, and the overall rejection of the Cromwellian dictatorship. The French Revolution went from one bloody change of regime to another. It is to Napoleon's credit that once he seized power, he stopped the purges; but still, seizing power is not orderly succession, now as the counterrevolution of the Bourbons who came after him, or the subsequent revolutions of 1830 and 1848, or the Paris Commune of 1870. It was not until the establishment of the Third Republic that peaceful transition from government to government became a reality in France, and even De Gaulle staged a kind of palace revolution 170 years later to finally bring the French Revolution to completion (or so it seems at this point). Transition in the Soviet regime started bloody, led to dictatorship, continued bloody, and now seems to be institutionalized in a less bloody but utterly undemocratic way.

Jefferson's own sense of his greatest accomplishments is reflected in the epitaph he chose for himself: "Author of the Declaration of Independence, of the Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom, and Father of the University of Virginia." He was indeed a revolutionary, but a sober one, in the American mold, who gloried in the proclamation of human liberty and equality, the constitutionalization of individual rights, and the founding of a public university.



Constitutional Architects

For the two exemplary leaders in this category, I have chosen John Adams, the author of the Massachusetts Constitution -- the model for state constitutional design -- and James Madison, the principal author and expositor of the United States Constitution. John Adams (1735-1826) lived to be ninety-one, dying in bed on the same day as Jefferson, the fiftieth anniversary of the Declaration of Independence, equally venerated. He entered politics during the struggle over the Stamp Act and remained active until the end of his presidential term in 1801. He was a member of the Continental Congress from 1774 to 1778 and was one of the architects of the intersectional compromise that brought George Washington to the command of the Continental Army. With Jefferson and Franklin, he served on the committee to draft the Declaration of Independence and led the debate on its adoption.

Adams served in three capacities as an American diplomat: as commissioner to France, as a member of the commission that negotiated the peace treaty with Great Britain, and as the first envoy to that country. In 1779/80 he was the principal author of the Massachusetts Constitution, his most enduring constitutional work. He was the country's first vice-president, serving under George Washington for both terms and then being elevated to the presidency in his own right. He served only one term, being defeated by Jefferson and the Democratic Republicans. Though he was strongly anti-Jacobin, his prudent behavior as president kept the United States from declaring war on France as most of his Federalist colleagues wished. He managed to confine hostilities to an undeclared sea war until differences between the two countries could be negotiated away.14

Adams' great constitutional monument, the Massachusetts Constitution, combines within it the principal dimensions of American constitutionalism -- the constitution as political covenant and compact, a constitutionalized declaration of rights, and a frame of government resting upon checks and balances and separation of powers, all within a solidly republican framework. It was the first constitution to be put directly to the people for approval. That it remains the constitution of that commonwealth over two hundred years later, with only the most minimal changes, is a reflection of its enduring value.15

James Madison (1751-1836) can be said to have been the first political scientist to have served the American people and, in a certain sense, the founder of American political science. He lived to be eighty-five. Graduating from Princeton on the eve of the Revolution, his first major political role was participation in the drafting of the Virginia Constitution in 1776. He served in the Confederation Congress from 1780 to 1783, where he advocated strengthening the powers of the federal government. He was the author of the Virginia Plan presented to the federal Constitutional Convention in 1787, and his leadership in the convention led to his being acknowledged as the "father of the Constitution." Once the convention ended, he helped lead the battle for ratification and was the principal author of The Federalist. However, he accepted the popular demand for the inclusion of a bill of rights in the federal Constitution as the price of ratification and submitted the principal draft for it when the First Congress convened.

Madison served in Congress from 1789 through 1797. With Jefferson, he founded the Democratic Republican party that won the "revolution of 1800," thereby introducing the principle of orderly change in control of the federal government. He was secretary of state during both terms of Jefferson's presidency and with Albert Gallatin, the secretary of the treasury, was part of the triumvirate that headed the executive branch in those years.

Madison succeeded to the presidency after Jefferson and served two terms. Like Adams, he was not a particularly successful president, being better at designing constitutions that at operating them. Also like Adams, he was a true federalist, concerned with a properly governed nation and properly governed states, and with a proper relationship between them. Thus, despite his strong nationalist tendencies, he could join with Jefferson in authoring the Virginia and Kentucky Resolves to interpose state law against federal legislation on constitutional grounds.

Unlike Samuel Adams and Patrick Henry, who saw the states as the organic polities and the confederation as a perpetual league of quite limited powers, John Adams and James Madison saw the system as an integral whole having a number of working parts -- federal and state, executive, legislative, and judicial. In that sense Madison was the first to formulate the idea of the United States as a political system, complex and intricate, but a single whole nonetheless. Subsequent students of Madison's thought who are less attuned to the theory of federalism than he have assumed that he was either a frustrated centralizer or else inconsistent, since he sometimes supported strengthening the powers of the federal government and sometimes those of the states. What they have failed to grasp is that he wanted to do both, as appropriate.16

It was Madison's intricate institutional design, as modified by other prudent revolutionaries of the Constitutional Convention, that provided a basis for consolidating the gains of the American Revolution and ensuring what has been, with one exception (the Civil War), and orderly yet dynamic government of a continental nation for nearly two hundred years. It is significant that we can point to no figures similar to Adams and Madison in any of the other three revolutions. None had constitutional architects, since none were even constitutionalized in the same way, if at all.



Father of His Country

If James Madison was the father of the constitution, George Washington (1732-1799) was clearly the father of his country. Although his life was shorter than that of the others discussed here, he too died peacefully in bed -- in fact, soon after he had accepted a commission as lieutenant general (then the senior rank) in the United States Army to prepare it for the incipient struggle with France. Washington's great skill was to be the exemplary leader who by moral example and prudent action could both lift the spirits of those he was leading and guide them to right action. He knew how to make the most of scarce resources and hence did not build any aspect of the Revolution on exploitation of the public he was serving. His compatriots and subsequent historians have agreed that his outstanding talent was the force, even majesty, of his personality. That, coupled with his moral commitment to a republican revolution, made him what he was.

After an early military career, Washington entered politics as part of his responsibilities as a country squire. He served in Virginia's House of Burgesses from 1759 to 1774, throughout the whole period of the buildup toward revolution. There he was one of the first to resist the British policy designed to impose England's authority on the colonies and thus became an early leader of the revolutionary party. Sent as a delegate to the Continental Congress in 1774, he hoped and subtly campaigned for command of the revolutionary armies after the battle of Lexington, and he was chosen commander-in-chief of the Continental forces on June 15, 1775.

From the time he assumed command on July 3 of that year until he relinquished it in December 1783, he was the preeminent soldier of the American Revolution. Often criticized for lack of military aggressiveness, he understood the nature of the campaign he was obliged to wage, given his scarce resources and the strength of his British opponents. He waged that campaign brilliantly, wearing down the British until French reinforcements helped him defeat them in the decisive battle of Yorktown. Washington comes down to us as a grand commander, when in fact he fought a semi-guerrilla war, maintaining organized formations but after the first year rarely engaging the British in head-on combat. Between Monmouth in June 1778 and Yorktown in September 1781, he did not fight a single full-scale battle. Rather, he directed strategy for campaigns in other fields that were increasingly of a guerrilla character. Given the military tactics of the time, his thrusting and parrying were inventive and extraordinarily ;successful departures from the accepted modes.

It was natural for Washington to be chosen to preside at the federal Constitutional Convention. There the same personal qualities and skills that enabled him to lead the revolutionary army so successfully served him in good stead and made him the crucial figure in bringing together the different individuals with their positions so that a document emerged that was both acceptable and inspired. As in his role as commander, it was not the brilliance of his ideas but his sense of timing, his ability to conciliate people of strong views, and his sheer presence that made the difference.17

Unanimously elected first president of the United States, Washington proceeded to preside over the translation of the U.S. Constitution into a working government. As Leonard D. White has shown in his study The Federalists, in some respects this was his most brilliant achievement.18 He gave meaning to the concept of chief magistrate as head of the executive branch of government, establishing in the process precedents that have endured to this day in a whole range of fields.

What is extraordinary about Washington is the degree to which he set the tone for the new United States of America in so many fields, from religious freedom to foreign affairs, from civil-military relations to the presidential management of the cabinet. Not the least of his contributions was teaching us and his successors that what generals and presidents should not do as well as what they should. In essence, he embodied and helped shape the political culture of the United States as well as its institutions. That is what puts him in a class by himself. Canonized by the generations immediately after his own, he was then treated to a major debunking when later historians discovered that he was indeed human. Now that we have survived his humanization and indeed benefited from it, his true greatness is becoming more apparent on every level. He was indeed of the family of the lion and the tribe of the eagle.

The other great revolutions had figures of the same family and tribe but whose behavior and contributions were very different. Perhaps the most inspiring of them was Cromwell, who had many of the positive characteristics of Washington but neither his moderation nor his self-restraint. In the French Revolution, Robespierre was more like Samuel Adams gone mad, and Napoleon was Washington in reverse. In certain technical respects they had parallel careers. Both rose through the army; both presided over efforts to institutionalize the revolution, and both played major roles in the administrative organization of a new government. But those comparisons serve only to point up the differences between the two men rather than their similarities. Washington was the quintessential republican, conciliating, working within the public framework of shared powers an authority, great because he could get men to work together, not because he could impose his will by gaining control of the top of the pyramid. Napoleon was the quintessential modern dictator, inspiring to his followers and his people, but in a coercive way and only from the top.

What is one to say about the Russian Revolution? There the tasks of Washington were shared by Lenin, Trotsky, and Stalin. The first, ruthless in his ideological commitment, functioned in ways diametrically opposed to the American. the second was a commander of armies like Washington but remained an outsider otherwise. And the third consolidated like Washington but was his very antithesis in moral qualities and personal self-abnegation.

What is common to all the Americans (and many others who could have been mentioned) is that they played several roles. Though their classification as models here has not been arbitrary, it is not as though Jefferson were not a constitutional architect, John Adams not a revolutionary, Madison not a statesman, and so forth. Indeed, what is characteristic of them all is that all served in both the executive and the legislative branches of the government of their respective states or the United States or both, and in no case did they ever confuse the responsibilities of one branch with those of the other. In general it can be said that neither did they confuse the responsibilities of the state and federal governments, though there the issue is less clear-cut. In some respects this is the best indicator of the special quality of American revolutionary leaders -- their sense of what was appropriate in the institutional context as well as what was necessary to achieve the revolutionary goal.



The Problem Resolved: A Different Model of Revolutionary Leadership

I have already suggested that it is the combination of proper modes of popular involvement, political institutionalization, and leaders committed to prudence that produced the different model of leadership characteristic of the American Revolution. Eric Hoffer summed up the matter: "Precisely a society that can get along without leaders is the one that's producing leaders." It is fitting to sum up by retelling Hoffer's story of his experience during the Great Depression with a work gang in the San Bernardino Mountains.19

During the Depression, a construction company had to build a road in the San Bernardino Mountains, and the man who was in charge, instead of calling up...an employment agency...sent out two trucks to skid row....Anybody who could climb up on that truck was hired, even if you had only one leg....They...drove us out to the San Bernardino Mountains, and...dumped us on the side of the hill. The company had only one man on the job, and he didn't even open his mouth. We found there bundles of equipment and supplies and then we started to sort ourselves out.

...it's the most glorious experience I ever had. We had so many carpenters, so many blacksmiths, so many cooks, so many foremen, so many men who could drive a bulldozer, handle a jackhammer....We put up the tents, put up the cook's shack, the toilet, the shower bath, cooked supper.

Next morning, we went out and started to build a road. If we had to write the Constitution, there would have been somebody there who knew all the "whereases" and the "wherefores." And we could...have built America. We were just a shovelful of slime scooped off the pavement of skid row, yet we could have built America on the side of the hill in the San Bernardino Mountains. Now you show me people anywhere in the world with such diffuse competence. It's fantastic. In other words, when I talk about Americans being a skilled people, I don't mean only technical skills, I mean social and political skills.

The vigor of a society should be gauged by its ability to get along without outstanding leaders. When I said that at the University of Stanford, all the young intellectuals...ran after me...and said, "Mr. Hoffer, the vigor of society should be gauged by its ability to produce great leaders." And then I stood there and I said, "Brother, this is just what happened. Precisely a society that can get along without leaders is the one that's producing leaders."

Hoffer may have exaggerated somewhat, especially since he spoke only of the first dimension: popular involvement. The founding fathers understood that with it there had to be political institutionalization as well. They devoted themselves as much to that end as to making the Revolution in the first place.

One final note: it remained for Abraham Lincoln to sense and consider the one problem that transcends both the character of popular involvement and the nature of the political institutions. Let us return to his address before the Young Men's Lyceum:

In the great journal of things happening under the sun, we, the American People,...find ourselves in the peaceful possession, of the fairest portion of the earth, as regards extent of territory, fertility of soil, and salubrity of climate. We find ourselves under the government of a system of political institutions, conducing more essentially to the ends of civil and religious liberty, than any of which the history of former times tells us. We, when mounting the stage of existence, found ourselves the legal inheritors of these fundamental blessings. We toiled not in the acquirement or establishment of them -- they are a legacy bequeathed us, by a once hardy, brave, and patriotic, but now lamented and departed race of ancestors. Theirs was the task (and nobly they performed it) to possess themselves, and through themselves, us, of this goodly land; and to uprear upon its hills and its valleys, a political edifice of liberty and equal rights; 'tis ours only, to transmit these, the former, unprofaned by the foot of an invader; the latter, undecayed by the lapse of time, and untorn by usurpation -- to the latest generation that fate shall permit the world to know. This task of gratitude to our fathers, justice to ourselves, duty to posterity, and love for our species in general, all imperatively require us faithfully to perform.

Lincoln continues by raising the question:

At what point then is the approach of danger to be expected? I answer, if it ever reach us, it must spring up amongst us. It cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide.

Lincoln suggests that internal disorder is the only possible way to bring down the American polity, because sooner or later internal disorder will bring down

the strongest bulwark of any Government, and particularly of those constituted like ours, may effectually be broken down and destroyed -- I mean the attachment of the People....At such a time and under such circumstances, men of sufficient talent and ambition will not be wanting to seize the opportunity, strike the blow, and overturn that fair fabric, which for the last half century, has been the fondest hope of the lovers of freedom throughout the world.

Lincoln in his address focused on the question of the mob's taking the law into its own hands -- in other words, improper popular involvement. His response to that was to endorse the maintenance of the political institutions bequeathed the Americans by the founders:

Let every American, every lover of liberty, every well wisher to his posterity, swear by the blood of the Revolution, never to violate in the last particular, the laws of the country; and never to tolerate their violation by others. As the patriots of seventy-six did to the support of the Declaration of Independence, so to the support of the Constitutions and Laws, let every American pledge his life, his property, and his sacred honor -- let everyman remember that to violate the law is to trample on the blood of his father, and to tear the character of his own and his children's liberty. Let reverence for the laws be breathed by every American mother to the lisping babe that prattles on her lap -- let it be taught in schools, in seminaries, and in colleges; -- let it be written in Primers, spelling books, and Almanacs; -- let it be preached from the pulpit, proclaimed in legislative halls, and enforced in courts of justice. And, in short, let it become the political religion of the nation.

But Lincoln knew that proper popular involvement and institutionalization are not enough, for they will not necessarily control those who belong to the family of the lion or the tribe of the eagle. His answer is perhaps less than fully satisfying, returning as he does to a reliance on a proper political religion. We are left to rely upon that, to which we can add the fostering of a proper political culture of the kind that animated George Washington and his compatriots.



Notes

1. The full story of Washington's gesture is told in John C. Fitzpatrick, ed., The Writings of George Washington (Washington, D.C.: Government Printing Office, 1931-44), 26:222-229.

2. Martin Diamond, A Revolution of Sober Expectations (Washington, D.C.: American Enterprise Institute, 1976).

3. See Peter Shaw, The Character of John Adams (Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press, 1976).

4. The Federalist, No. 51.

5. As cited in Abraham Lincoln, Works (New Brunswick, N.J.: Rutgers University Press, 1953), 1:108-115.

6. On American revolutionary mobs, see Moshe Hazani, "Samuel Adams and Saint-Just: Contrasting Examples of Professional Revolutionaries," in this volume.

7. Neil Riemer, The Democratic Experiment: American Political Theory, vol. I (Princeton: Van Nostrand, 1967); Clinton Rossiter, Seed Time of the Republic: The Origin of the American Tradition of Political Liberty (New York: Harcourt, Brace, 1953).

8. Daniel J. Elazar, "The States and the Congress Move toward Independence, 1775-1776," Publius 6, No. 1 (Winter 1976): 135-143 (see Appendix A).

9. Willi Paul Adams, The First American Constitutions: Republican Ideology and the Making of the State Constitutions in the Revolutionary Era (Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press, 1980); Donald S. Lutz, Popular Consent and Popular Control: Whig Political Theory in the Early State Constitutions (Baton Rouge: Louisiana State University Press, 1980); Ronald M. Peters, Jr., The Massachusetts Constitution of 1780: A Social Compact (Amherst: University of Massachusetts Press, 1978).

10. Hazani, "Samuel Adams and Saint-Just."

11. Robert D. Meade, Patrick Henry, 2 vols. (Philadelphia: Lippincott, 1957-59).

12. Carl Becker, Benjamin Franklin (Ithaca, N.Y.: Cornell University Press, 1946); Paul W. Conner, Poor Richards Politicks: Benjamin Franklin and His New American Order (New York: Greenwood, 1980).

13. Dumas Malone, Jefferson in His Times, 6 vols. (Boston: Little, Brown, 1948-82); idem, Thomas Jefferson as Political Leader (New York: Greenwood, 1979).

14. Catherine D. Bowen, John Adams and the American Revolution (Boston: Little, Brown, 1950); Page Smith, John Adams, 2 vols. (Garden City, N.Y.: Doubleday, 1962).

15. Peters, Massachusetts Constitution of 1780.

16. Irving Brant, James Madison, 6 vols. (Indianapolis: Bobbs-Merrill, 1941-61); Marvin Meyers, The Mind of the Founder (Hanover and London: Brandeis University Pre

(Message over 64 KB, truncated)

Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68391 From: Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: Re: Independence Day - A ROMAN TOPIC :) The American Revolution as o
Ave Paulinus;

On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 7:34 AM, Timothy or Stephen
Gallagher<spqr753@...> wrote:
>
>
> Contrasting Models of Revolutionary Leadership
>
> [excision maximus ,-]
>
> ________________________________
> Venator wrote:
>
> [excision minimus]
>
> So, I shall lift Horn today and pour Libation to the Genii of the
> Fourth of July; Liberty, Equality and the Rule of Law. May we all
> remember that and try to bring them closer to reality every day.
>
> mea sententia
>
> Venator
>

Great article, quite in line with some thoughts both Marca Annia and I
have expressed over the years; particularly that the American
Revolution did not dissolve into a "Reign of Terror."

Here's a little on the Centennial statue of George Washington, which
was modeled on the classical era statue of Zeus,
http://www.smithsonianlegacies.si.edu/objectdescription.cfm?ID=66

a short essay about how George Washington was quite Roman in spirit,
http://www.srmason-sj.org/council/journal/feb99/TRACTEN.HTM

and a description of the Washington "Roman head" penny.
http://www.coins.nd.edu/ColCoin/ColCoinIntros/WashROMAN.intro.html
http://www.coins.nd.edu/ColCoin/ColCoinImages/Washingtons17-On/Baker-19.obv.jpg

=====================================
In amicitia et fide
Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator
Civis circa Quintilis MMDCCLI a.u.c.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68392 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: Re: Independence Day - A ROMAN TOPIC :) The American Revolution as o
Cato omnibus in foro SPD

Salvete!

Superb articles. I guess the celebration is a little bit Roman after all :)

With the enormous fireworks displays over the Hudson River tonight, NYC tries to make up a little for being British military headquarters during the American Revolution :)

Again to all the citizens of the Respublica who are also citizens of this, our great Republic: Happy Independence Day, and may God continue to bless the United States of America!

Vale et valete!

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68393 From: iulius sabinus Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: Re: Independence Day - A ROMAN TOPIC
SALVETE AMICI!
 

Happy Independence Day and may the Gods bless all my American friends including those who serve with honor on duty, far away from home. I wish them to return safe.

 

SPQR

 
VALETE,
T. Iulius Sabinus
"Every individual is the architect of his own fortune" - Appius Claudius


--- On Sat, 7/4/09, Gaius Equitius Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:

From: Gaius Equitius Cato <catoinnyc@...>
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Independence Day - A ROMAN TOPIC :) The American Revolution as one of "sober
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, July 4, 2009, 6:24 PM

Cato omnibus in foro SPD

Salvete!

Superb articles. I guess the celebration is a little bit Roman after all :)

With the enormous fireworks displays over the Hudson River tonight, NYC tries to make up a little for being British military headquarters during the American Revolution :)

Again to all the citizens of the Respublica who are also citizens of this, our great Republic: Happy Independence Day, and may God continue to bless the United States of America!

Vale et valete!

Cato


Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68394 From: C. Maria Caeca Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: JSTOR?
Salvete Omnes,

I would like to know the status of our getting JSTOR? I do understand that
our magistrates are very busy (was emphatically informed so), and, while
asking for a status report is, apparently, considered "upsetting", since
funds to which I, as a tax payer in this organization contributed, I do not
think it unreasonable that the Government of this Res Publica be held to a
certain degree of accountability. Magistrates and even Senators should keep
in mind that they serve at the will, and by virtue of the approval, of the
people: unimportant, uninfluential, bothersome people like me.

I am not demanding anything, I just want to know what is happening, and why
the projected start date of June 1 was not, or could not, be met. That is
my right, and I am exercising it.

C. Maria Caeca
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68395 From: Maior Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: Re: JSTOR?
M. Hortensia Caecae spd:
Since I initiated this project I have followed it closeley. As I wished to give our taxpayers a wonderful resource.

Caeca, I told you over at the Religio list, NR is having problems with our server. And they tell me this needs to be addressed first.

You can always right to the CIO. One of the things I pointed out in the past, is when people demand publically that the IT guys make a report, they get kinda upset.

You see they work hard for absolutely $0 money for NR, most people forget about them and they get no thanks, then from time to time cives demand stuff and they get fed up, underappreciated and leave.
That's just how Gracchus, Callidus, and Agricola left as our webmasters. So please be patient. And remember to thank the IT people in NR for their selfless hard work!
optime vale
M. Hortensia Maior


>
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> I would like to know the status of our getting JSTOR? I do understand that
> our magistrates are very busy (was emphatically informed so), and, while
> asking for a status report is, apparently, considered "upsetting", since
> funds to which I, as a tax payer in this organization contributed, I do not
> think it unreasonable that the Government of this Res Publica be held to a
> certain degree of accountability. Magistrates and even Senators should keep
> in mind that they serve at the will, and by virtue of the approval, of the
> people: unimportant, uninfluential, bothersome people like me.
>
> I am not demanding anything, I just want to know what is happening, and why
> the projected start date of June 1 was not, or could not, be met. That is
> my right, and I am exercising it.
>
> C. Maria Caeca
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68396 From: C. Maria Caeca Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: Re: JSTOR?
Salve,

I told you, on the RR list, that I would move my question, and any resulting
discussion, to the ML, where it belongs. I posted spontaneously, and
inappropriately, to the RR list about this matter, for which I apologize. I
could have copied and pasted both my post and yours to this list, but chose
not to do so because it didn't seem appropriate, and because I found your
response dismissive, at best. Now, your response is not only dismissive,
but discourteous and patronizing, as well.

First of all, far more went into the leaving of most of our excellent IT
people than requests from citizens, posted after a month of no status
reports. Our IT people were so mistreated and taken for granted by this
current Government that they finally left in utter frustration.

Next, Any elected Government, including this elected Government, is
accountable to its citizens. You may *wish* to govern in secret, doing as
you please, and reporting to the citizenry only when it suits you, and most
citizens might allow you, out of apathy or from fear of abuse or reprisal,
but I will not. I have made no unreasonable demands, nor will I, but I
*will* ask for, and insist on, when necessary information.

Finally, I need no instruction in basic courtesy, and have, publicly,
expressed my appreciation not only for our IT folks, but, from time to time,
of those who work quietly behind the scenes to make this republic function.

C. Maria Caeca
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68397 From: David Kling Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: Re: JSTOR?
Salve;

To my knowledge JSTOR was changing how they marketed to organizations,
and we were waiting on the new information. I'm not sure who the
contact person is - likely a consular accensus. I'm sure we can find
out - I'm traveling and using my mobile device to respond so apologize
for this vague response.

Vale:

Modianus



On 7/4/09, C. Maria Caeca <shoshanahathaway@...> wrote:
> Salve,
>
> I told you, on the RR list, that I would move my question, and any resulting
> discussion, to the ML, where it belongs. I posted spontaneously, and
> inappropriately, to the RR list about this matter, for which I apologize. I
> could have copied and pasted both my post and yours to this list, but chose
> not to do so because it didn't seem appropriate, and because I found your
> response dismissive, at best. Now, your response is not only dismissive,
> but discourteous and patronizing, as well.
>
> First of all, far more went into the leaving of most of our excellent IT
> people than requests from citizens, posted after a month of no status
> reports. Our IT people were so mistreated and taken for granted by this
> current Government that they finally left in utter frustration.
>
> Next, Any elected Government, including this elected Government, is
> accountable to its citizens. You may *wish* to govern in secret, doing as
> you please, and reporting to the citizenry only when it suits you, and most
> citizens might allow you, out of apathy or from fear of abuse or reprisal,
> but I will not. I have made no unreasonable demands, nor will I, but I
> *will* ask for, and insist on, when necessary information.
>
> Finally, I need no instruction in basic courtesy, and have, publicly,
> expressed my appreciation not only for our IT folks, but, from time to time,
> of those who work quietly behind the scenes to make this republic function.
>
> C. Maria Caeca
>
>

--
Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68398 From: C. Maria Caeca Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: Re: JSTOR?
Salve,

Gratias Tibi ago! I do hope your trip is for pleasure, and that you
thoroughly enjoy yourself during this Holiday.

C. Maria Caeca
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68399 From: L Julia Aquila Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: Re: Independence Day - A ROMAN TOPIC
Salvéte, amícae et amící!

Thank you Sabine consobríne!

Happy July 4th, Viva La Révolution, and stay clear of misguided pyrotechnics!

Our "Founding Fathers", many Stoic-Deists (look it up – many were, don't have time to `splain Lucy), were most definitely influenced by Ancient Rome particularly the 3rd C. BCE. These were men of classical education - the Revolution would not have had a concrete foundation without our Roman ancestors. The Greeks, too;) They built their platform on the Republican models and of course the virtues of Ancient Rome. This was not a "Christian" model either (again look up what a [Stoic] Deist was during the Age of Enlightenment, of which our FF were students) and then one may realize that Thomas Jefferson's "creator" was a Deist god supporting opinions that this country was not built on Christian Principles. Author Victor J. Stenger covers that statement nicely but one could also check out Article XI of the 1796 treaty with Tripoli that states that the US is not in any way founded on the Christian Religion. Thomas Jefferson's original words in the "Declaration", before Congress changed them (and also omitted his statement against slavery), were "All men are created equal and independent. From that equal creation they derive rights inherent and inalienable." No specific mention of this enigmatic "creator."
Carl Richard's "Greeks & Romans Bearing Gifts: How the Ancients Inspired the Founding Fathers" and also Helen M. Molanphy's 1986 dissertation regarding the classical influences of the American Republic's foundation, neatly gathers the Greco-Roman influences together for us. Still nothing reinforces this knowledge better than delving into the same texts, those classic texts, that our FF had available to them. Sometimes I note that there is a tendency for some to be too influenced by an author who offers his own opinion of the classical texts rather, quoting those books rather than the classical texts these books were based on. I like to adhere to that old adage "don't believe everything you read."
If anyone has the time read the exchange of letters between Thomas Jefferson and John Q Adams, while they often make reference to Pythagoras, Plato, Socrates and Xenophene, they are rich with discussions and references to the Ancient Roman authors such as Cicero ("Tully"), Livy, Plutarch, the "Plinys," Caesar, Augustus, Apulus, Sallust, Horace, Virgil, Quintilian and Tacitus to name a few. I was able to find a list of reading recommendations from Thomas Jefferson to his nephew Peter Carr:
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/jefferson_enclosure.html.
Our classically trained FFs read the classics in Latin, Greek and French, they processed the ancient words directly - discussing them and I feel certain, arguing about them, amongst themselves.
We, here in Nova Roma, can learn from the U.S. FFs, they studied diligently that which they were already well versed in to avoid the mistakes of the Republic that led to its downfall. If anyone, for one moment is fully confident that they are sufficiently informed to know how to avoid such a downfall, than that one, of all people, needs to review and instill within him/herself that enlightening seed of doubt to remove the blinders that might certainly take you, and those of the same mind, over a ledge you cannot see, in "down fall." And so, here again, we learn by our FFs' example that while they were strongly influenced by the Republic, they realized that as a foundation it was a superb model, but as a new nation, it required new, innovative – and revolutionary – concepts to form a new government by the authority of the people for [the] free and independent [united] states.

Bene valéte atque di vos incolumes custodiant

Valete optime,
Julia



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, iulius sabinus <iulius_sabinus@...> wrote:
>
> SALVETE AMICI!
>  
> Happy Independence Day and may the Gods bless all my American friends including those who serve with honor on duty, far away from home. I wish them to return safe.
>  
> SPQR
>  
> VALETE,
> T. Iulius Sabinus
>
>
>
>
> "Every individual is the architect of his own fortune" - Appius Claudius
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68400 From: L Julia Aquila Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCEMENT of CONVENTUS NOVAE ROMAE in North America!
C O N V E N T U S N O V A E R O M A E

The first annual Conventus Novae Romae in North America will be held in America
Austrorientalis on:

SEXTILIS • VII • VIII • IX MMDCCLXII a.u.c.
(7th, 8th & 9th August 2009)

Located in:
NASHVILLE, TENNESSEE, USA

All citizens are cordially invited to the First Annual North American Coventus
Novae Romae for a weekend of exploration, education and camaraderie Roman
–style! Come meet fellow citizens and find yourself immersed in classical
culture, conversation and games sharing the unique experience of what it is to
be Novi Romani.

RSVP now, don't delay and reserve your place!

The Conventus convenes Friday evening at the notable Blackstone Restaurant and
Brewery for a leisurely meet and greet. This is in walking distance to the
suggested hotels and the first destination after check in.
Saturday morning citizens will enjoy a Docent Tour of the Parthenon that
includes an exact replica of the Greek original as it was in antiquity complete
with a 42 ft. tall statue of Pallas Athena clad in 23.75 caret Italian gold leaf
who supports in her hand a 6 ft. 4 in. statue of the Greek Goddess of Victory,
Nike.
Saturday evening citizens will enjoy an old world repast at the Dinner
Conference graced by a presentation by a notable citizen in the style of the
Ancient Mystery Schools. Later that evening the games will continue!
Sunday, following lunch at a French Bistro, citizens will enjoy a private tour
of the Belmont Mansion, a treasure of classical influences in art, culture and
architecture.
The weekend will offer many activities Roman style including games, the words of
the ancients in Latin and a special ceremony, a Religio Romana Ritual right in
the heart of the Athens of the South.

To RSVP join the registration list at NR_Nashville_Conventus on Yahoo:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NR_Nashville_Conventus/

When you join you will receive a Registration form, which can be copied and
posted on the registration list when you RSVP.
You may also send the Registration form in privatum to
l_ivlia_aqvilaATyahooDOTcom but you still should post your RSVP on the
registration list in the unlikely event it gets lost in email.
There is also a $35.00 US Coventus fee due by July 23rd which serves as a final
confirmation of your RSVP, more information and assistance regarding payment in
the yahoo registration list. The fee will be paid through Nova Roma pay pal,
with a notation for US conventus, unless other arrangements are made.

The Agenda, Hotel Reservations, Travel and other info can be found on the Nova
Roma wiki:
http://novaroma.org/nr/I_Conventus_Novae_Romae_(NA)

V I V A T N O V A R O M A!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68401 From: Maior Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: Re: JSTOR?
Salve Caeca;
I have been checking in bi-monthly with JSTOR to see when they are ready. Around June 20th when I rang the contact person informed me they were ready to accept member organizations. I sent the information to the consuls and cc'd the CIO & his team.
As I mentioned NR needs to find a new host, which accounts for the delay. You cannot have JSTOR without a server,
optime vale
M. Hortensia Maior



>
> Salve,
>
> Gratias Tibi ago! I do hope your trip is for pleasure, and that you
> thoroughly enjoy yourself during this Holiday.
>
> C. Maria Caeca
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68402 From: C. Maria Caeca Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: Re: JSTOR?
Salve,

Thank you for your response. BTW, just out of curiosity, what befell our
server? But, of course, I do understand the problem, and will wait for
things to be fixed, untangled, or whatever must be done.

C. Maria Caeca
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68403 From: c.aqvillivs_rota Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: I.Aquila/happy 4th July to all

Salvete omnes,

HAPPY 4th of JULY

As Aquila has beautifully showed in her posting, it is a great thing and reminder for all NR to see how vivid the spirit of Rome still is, even today in our presence. The 4th of July in the U.S. is something to be proud of, for every NR citizen no matter where they live and what their political view is. The 4th of July, the day of American Independence is also a symbol of surviving present time classic Graeco/Roman ideals. A day for everyone of us. Its message shall cross national borders without resentments and inspire not only U.S. Citizens, but all of NR and all occidental patriots out there as a culturally unifying statement.

Thank you Iulia  for this nice posting 

TO ALL OUT THERE

HAPPY 4th of JULY 2009/MMDCLXII

 

C. AQVILLIVS ROTA                                                                                                    

PROCURATOR

 PROVINCIA AMERICA AUSTRORIENTALIS

 

 

Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68404 From: livia_plauta Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
Salve Semproni,
why does a scholar like you make generalized and reductive statements like this? You know that the matter is much more complicated than that!

On a scale of "organized crime" vs. "totally impersonal State" most societies would fall in various positions around the middle.
And if you count the ideal, rather than the actual situation, then feudalism falls at one and of the scale, and Greek city-States on the other.

Do I have to tell you how much weight ideology has and has had in the course of history?

Also, it would be nice if you refrained from calling people names in the Main List.

Surely yours must be a case of post-camping exaustion.

Optime vale,
Livia


>
> Salve,
>  
> In ancient terms and perhaps up to the early 20th century, nations were organized crime. The question of definition was a matter a matter on size and who is defining. At one point, the papacy was mafia. Get an educated historical perspective! I'm tired of imbeciles.
>
> --- On Sat, 7/4/09, Jesse Corradino <woden66@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: Jesse Corradino <woden66@...>
> Subject: RE: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
> To: nova-roma@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Saturday, July 4, 2009, 1:34 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Salve,
>  
> I wasn't being serious at all about organized crime having anything to do with Greeks.  I was trying to emphasize how the geographical location of an occupying people is not correlated to the phenomenon of organized crime. 
>  
> As for the meaning of Camorra, I was taught that it was a greek word, but that was informally, so I'll freely admit to being wrong about that.
>  
> Best,
> JC
>
>  
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
> > From: livia.plauta@ gmail.com
> > Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 21:03:17 +0000
> > Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
> >
> > Salve Jesse,
> >
> > according to my etymological dictionary (Devoto, the most famous one) "Camorra" comes from the mediterranean root *morra, meaning "flock", "gang", reiforced by "ca".
> >
> > "'ndrangheta" seems to really come from the Greek "andragathia" , but it could be derived just from the toponym "Andragathia Regio", which designated an area between Calabria and Lucania.
> >
> > So, as you see only one of the words can be traced back to Greek roots, and even then, there's nothing strange about it, since Greek obviously left a huge inheritance in local dialects. This doesn't mean that the crimnal organization itself traces back to greek times, only that the word to indicate "virtus" in the local dialect was of Greek, and not Latin derivation.
> >
> > Optime vale,
> > Livia
> > >
> > >
> > > Are you serious in this post? You have nothing to back this up with besides a thinly veiled racism against Arabs. Let me paraphrase: Arabs arrived in Italy and transformed southern Italians into primitive throw-backs. Why not the Greeks? Another "careful" observation of geography shows that the areas affected by organized crime in southern Italy were also colonized by the Greeks. Indeed, Camorra and N'drghenta (spelling there) are actually Greek works! So, at the very least, when the Arabs were manufacturing cave-Italians, they were at least clever enough to cover their presence by outwardly expressing themselves with the Greek language. And, similar to your own argument, all of this is taking place literally thousands of years before mainstream scholarship claims anything related to organized crime in the modern sense was happening!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------ --------- --------- ------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Windows Live™ SkyDrive™: Get 25 GB of free online storage. Get it on your BlackBerry or iPhone.
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68405 From: livia_plauta Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
Salve Jesse,
you "called it out" because you made assumptions about Quirinus Vesta based on your own culture.
But Vesta isn't American: he's an Italian living in the area he's talking about. And the relation of Italians to Arabs is definitely more complicated than that of Americans.
On one hand, because for us Arabs were boogeymen long before the US even existed, but on the other hand, because there are some common cultural features which make us a lot more careful about taking the moral high ground when talking about them.

Optime vale,
Livia


>
> Thus, in light of other compelling evidence that hinges on the same deduction-that is not recognized as true-I felt the argument was so thin otherwise it seemed racist to me to attribute the existence of organized crime to Arabs. Maybe it's because I'm American, but it happens quite often they're treated like boogeymen here, so I called it out.
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68406 From: livia_plauta Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: New earthquakes in L'Aquila
L. Livia Plauta omnibus S.P.D.

Since yesterday there have been eight new earthquakes in the region of L'Aquila in Abruzzo, the strongest one of magnitudo 4,1.

A lot of people are still living in tents, and the bad weather makes matters worse.

I'd like to remind everybody that a fund has been set up to collect donations.
If you want to help the victims of the Abruzzo earthquakes ytou can donate trough the "Paypal" link on the NR website main page.
Please specify that the donation is for the Abruzzo earthquake victims.

The collection will continue trhough September, and the money collected will be sent to the Italian Red Cross on October 2, 2009.

Optime valete,
Livia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68407 From: David Kling Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: Re: JSTOR?
Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus C. Mariae Caecae salutem dicit

Thank you, my 4th of July was excellent and spent time with some wonderful friends.

The server has been hosted very graciously by Matt Hucke, former citizen Marcus Octavius Gracchus.  He has decided he no longer wishes to host the Nova Roma website and has asked that we find a new server/host.  Over the years he has done tremendous good for Nova Roma, and I am sad that he has resigned -- but that doesn't (to me) diminish the amount of work he as done for Nova Roma.  He felt it was necessary to disassociate from Nova Roma and disolve the professional relationship of website host.  This is a very reasonable request since Nova Roma politics can be difficult and likely it was hard for him to completely divorce himself since he was linked via the professional relationship he had because we were hosted on his server.  We have been given ample time and assistance in the transition, so there are no worries!

Vale;

Modianus

On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 6:34 PM, C. Maria Caeca <shoshanahathaway@...> wrote:


Salve,

Thank you for your response. BTW, just out of curiosity, what befell our
server? But, of course, I do understand the problem, and will wait for
things to be fixed, untangled, or whatever must be done.

C. Maria Caeca


Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68408 From: C. Maria Caeca Date: 2009-07-04
Subject: Re: JSTOR?
Salve,
 
Ah, I see, and thank you for letting me know ... I do care about NR, so, yes, I do, and will always, ask questions.  Now that I understand, of course, I will just wish luck to the new server endeavor, and return to being quiet.
 
C. Maria Caeca, also glad you had a lovely Holiday.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68409 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Modianus refusal to follow the rules cost us our server.
In a message dated 7/4/2009 8:22:49 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, tau.athanasios@... writes:
He felt it was necessary to disassociate from Nova Roma and disolve the professional relationship of website host.  This is a very reasonable request since Nova Roma politics can be difficult and likely it was hard for him to completely divorce himself since he was linked via the professional relationship he had because we were hosted on his server
 
Hey jerk-off!
 
Maybe you should tell these good  people of NOVA ROMA
That YOUR inability to follow the rules that COST us this
server.  Oh yeah that's true citizens of Nova Roma.  This wanna-be
non identity is gonna cost you more money next year because he did not
have the stones to withdraw once the Tribunes pronounced his candidacy illegal.
For Modianus its all about him, and when the Consuls demanded that Matt defy the
Tribunes, Matt pulled the plug rather then do so.  Matt H has more Roman in his little finger
then Modanius has in his whole body.  Or should we call Modianus, Sir Davy  The Christian arch bishop. or should we call him...nah who knows what name or religion he's representing this week?
The point is Modianus the mediocre could have withdrew and everyone would
have cheered his sacrifice.  But no, Sir Davy's, I mean Modianus' ego is just too
 fragile to even consider such a thing.  So we lost Matt, and the Roman people here
lost a lot.  Oh wait we still have Modainus.  Aren't we lucky?  Oh gee, Modainus is a pinhead.
And he doesn't have a server farm.  Oh yeah, we got the best of that deal didn't we?
 
Fabius   
 
 
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68410 From: lathyrus77 Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Modianus refusal to follow the rules cost us our server.
Since matt isn't a member of NR, it shouldn't matter to him about the tribunes(2 of them) and modianus. A professional would do the job he's paid to do without a problem.

Isn't it nice when you have a senator and pontifex calling another senator and pontifex a "jerk-off"? LOL @ Nova Roma.

-Anna

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, QFabiusMaxmi@... wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 7/4/2009 8:22:49 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> tau.athanasios@... writes:
>
> He felt it was necessary to disassociate from Nova Roma and disolve the
> professional relationship of website host. This is a very reasonable
> request since Nova Roma politics can be difficult and likely it was hard for him
> to completely divorce himself since he was linked via the professional
> relationship he had because we were hosted on his server
>
>
>
> Hey jerk-off!
>
> Maybe you should tell these good people of NOVA ROMA
> That YOUR inability to follow the rules that COST us this
> server. Oh yeah that's true citizens of Nova Roma. This wanna-be
> non identity is gonna cost you more money next year because he did not
> have the stones to withdraw once the Tribunes pronounced his candidacy
> illegal.
> For Modianus its all about him, and when the Consuls demanded that Matt
> defy the
> Tribunes, Matt pulled the plug rather then do so. Matt H has more Roman
> in his little finger
> then Modanius has in his whole body. Or should we call Modianus, Sir Davy
> The Christian arch bishop. or should we call him...nah who knows what
> name or religion he's representing this week?
> The point is Modianus the mediocre could have withdrew and everyone would
> have cheered his sacrifice. But no, Sir Davy's, I mean Modianus' ego is
> just too
> fragile to even consider such a thing. So we lost Matt, and the Roman
> people here
> lost a lot. Oh wait we still have Modainus. Aren't we lucky? Oh gee,
> Modainus is a pinhead.
> And he doesn't have a server farm. Oh yeah, we got the best of that deal
> didn't we?
>
> Fabius
>
>
> **************Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the
> grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000005)
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68411 From: David Kling Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Modianus refusal to follow the rules cost us our server.
Salvete:

And it is funny because Matt Hucke, who I still consider Marcus Octavius Gracchus, is and shall remain a friend of mine.  He and I were on good terms through-out his decision to disassociate with Nova Roma.  And let us not forget the reason he resigned from Nova Roma.  I have endured the abuse presented by Quintus Fabius Maximus and his ilk for years, it is nothing new and if that is how he makes himself feel important then so be it.  All one has to ask is, "how many times were you elected censor when you ran?"  By their fruits you will know them.

Valete:

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus

On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 3:42 AM, lathyrus77 <lathyrus77@...> wrote:


Since matt isn't a member of NR, it shouldn't matter to him about the tribunes(2 of them) and modianus. A professional would do the job he's paid to do without a problem.

Isn't it nice when you have a senator and pontifex calling another senator and pontifex a "jerk-off"? LOL @ Nova Roma.

-Anna



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, QFabiusMaxmi@... wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 7/4/2009 8:22:49 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> tau.athanasios@... writes:
>
> He felt it was necessary to disassociate from Nova Roma and disolve the
> professional relationship of website host. This is a very reasonable
> request since Nova Roma politics can be difficult and likely it was hard for him
> to completely divorce himself since he was linked via the professional
> relationship he had because we were hosted on his server
>
>
>
> Hey jerk-off!
>
> Maybe you should tell these good people of NOVA ROMA
> That YOUR inability to follow the rules that COST us this
> server. Oh yeah that's true citizens of Nova Roma. This wanna-be
> non identity is gonna cost you more money next year because he did not
> have the stones to withdraw once the Tribunes pronounced his candidacy
> illegal.
> For Modianus its all about him, and when the Consuls demanded that Matt
> defy the
> Tribunes, Matt pulled the plug rather then do so. Matt H has more Roman
> in his little finger
> then Modanius has in his whole body. Or should we call Modianus, Sir Davy
> The Christian arch bishop. or should we call him...nah who knows what
> name or religion he's representing this week?
> The point is Modianus the mediocre could have withdrew and everyone would
> have cheered his sacrifice. But no, Sir Davy's, I mean Modianus' ego is
> just too
> fragile to even consider such a thing. So we lost Matt, and the Roman
> people here
> lost a lot. Oh wait we still have Modainus. Aren't we lucky? Oh gee,
> Modainus is a pinhead.
> And he doesn't have a server farm. Oh yeah, we got the best of that deal
> didn't we?
>
> Fabius
>
>
> **************Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the
> grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000005)
>


Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68412 From: marcushoratius Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: a. d. III Nonas Quinctilias: POPLIFUGIA
M. Moravius Piscinus cultoribus Deorum et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit: Bene omnibus nobis.

Hodie est ante diem III Nonas Quinctilias; haec dies nefastus piaculum est: POPLIFUGIA; feriae Iovi

Feriae Iovi

Without further explanation, the Fasti Amiternum notes this day as a festival of Jupiter. Below we look at attitudes that Romans held in prayer towards Jupiter. Beginning with Plautus in the early second century BCE, we move in chronological order over a 400 year period. In this time the religio Romana moved towards henotheism with Jupiter Optimus Maximus as the central cosmological deity onto which other national deities were assimilated through syncretism.

"O Iuppiter, who does cherish and nurture the human race, through whom we live and draw the breath of being, in whom rest the hopes and lives of all humankind, I beg you to grant that this day may prosper that which I have in hand." ~ Plautus, Poenulus 1187-89

"O Jupiter Capitolinus, to You I pray, I entreat You, who the Roman people have named Optimus after Your kindness and Maximus after Your great power." ~ M. TulliusCicero, De Domo sua ad Pontifices 144

"Almighty Jupiter, who both engendered and fathered kings, things, and gods, God of Gods, who are both One and All." ~ Valerius Soranus FPL fr.4; Augustinus of Hippo, Civitas Dei 7.9

"There is a heavenly power and You do exist, O great Jupiter; not in vain did we consecrate this seat to You, Father of Gods and Mankind." ~ Titus Livy 8.6.5

"Jupiter Capitolinus, Mars Gradivus called progenitor and aide of the Romans, Vesta, perpetual guardian of fire, and whatever divine powers in this greatness of Roman sovereignty, the largest empire on earth, exulted to the highest dignity, to You the public voice calls to witness and to pray: guard, preserve, and protect this state, this peace, this prince, and those who succeed to the Senate, by their long standing, determined worthy to consider the most grave matters among mortals." ~ Vellius Paterculus II 131

"Hail, Child of the Mighty, Father of the Gods, whose divine power I have heard from afar. In one moment my pool is blessed with happiness, at another it is venerated, made holy by Your presence, ever since I was granted to know that You are never far from me, and was enabled to watch Your immortal radiance from a vicinity near my abode." ~ Statius, Silvae I.1.74-78

"God Almighty, potent in all things, to Whom the aged Pole Star looks upon with admiring wonder, revering Your agelessness, the One who is always known by a thousand virtues, no one shall ever be able to account their countless number or timelessness. Now be addressed, if by any name Your dignity may be addressed, Holy One, be delighted, Unknown One, for Whom mightiest Earth trembles and the wandering stars halt their rapid course. You alone, though within Yourself are You many, You are first, and You are last, and likewise are You in between, arising above and outliving the very stars. For without end Yourself, You bring ever-gliding time to an end. On high from eternity You look upon the whirling course of Nature's certain Fate and of lives taken into the intricate convolutions of time immemorial only to be brought back once more and restored to their heavenly vault, the world no doubt restored of those parts drawn off and will have been lost, only once more for them to ebb back into the flow of unending time. If indeed it is allowed to thoughtlessly direct one's senses toward You and attempt to grasp Your holy splendor, whereby You surround the immense vastness of the stars and embrace the far-flung aether with Your likeness, perhaps Your image appears in the momentary flash of lightning with limbs of flowing flames, in that You are the Radiance, who enlightens all the world beneath You and presses onward the sunlight into our days. In You are the entire race of Gods. You are the invigorating cause of all things. You are all of Nature, the One God innumerable. You are the generating power in the totality of all sexual procreation. (You manifest in many way), born once here as a God, born once here as a world, this home of Gods and mankind, Lucent, majestic source of the starry field in youthful bloom. Instill me with Your favoring breath, I pray, grant to one willing to know, the manner in which You father the world. Grant, Father, that I may come to know the august causes by which You once wove all things together to form the physical world of matter, and what texture of light, congruent and dissimilar, You once wove into it, by which You animated the world with soul, and what it is that is lively, by which the quick body lives." ~ Tiberianus IV

Dio Cassius confirmed in an indirect way that today celebrated a feriae Iovis by telling how today came to be celebrated as the birthday of Julius Caesar due to the start of the Ludi Apollinares on 6 July and carrying through 13 July; where Caesar's birthday is on 12 July:

"And they (the Second Triumviri) compelled everybody to celebrate his birthday by wearing laurel and by merry-making, passing a law that those who neglected these observances should be accursed in the sight of Jupiter and of Caesar himself (sacer Iovi et Divio Iulio), and, in the case of senators of senators' sons, that they should forfeit a million sesterces. Now it happened that the Ludi Apollinares fell on the same day, and they therefore voted that his birthday feast should be celebrated on the previous day, on the ground that there was an oracle of the Sibyl which forbade the holding of a festival on Apollo's day to any god except Apollo." ~ Dio Cassius 47.18.5-6


Poplifugia

Two legends grew up to explain the Poplifugia, neither of which are probably true. Interestingly both would seem to come from the Late Fourth Century.

"The Poplifugia seems to have been named from the fact that on this day the people suddenly fled in noisy confusion: for this day is not much after the departure of the Gauls from the City, and the peoples who were then near the City, such as the Ficuleans and Fidenians and other neighbors, united against us. Several traces of this day's flight appear in the sacrifices, of which the Libri Antiquitatim give more information." ~ M. Terrentius Varro, Lingua Latinae 6.18

"The day (Romulus) vanished is called the Poplifugia and the Nonae Caprotinae, because they go then out of the city and sacrifice at the Goat's Marsh, and, as they go, they shout out some of the Roman names, as Marcus, Lucius, Caius, imitating the way in which they then fled and called upon one another in that fright and hurry." ~ Plutarch, Life of Romulus 29.2

Since the Poplifugia appears in capital letters on various fasti it is assumed that this is a festival that goes back to Numa. From that reasoning the two legendary explanations are therefore rejected by modern scholars. However, the assumption that the "Numa calendar of festivals" predates the Fourth Century is likely an erroneous assumption. If anything, the Numa tradition would have begun with a restoration that directly related to the Gallic sack of 390 BCE. The legends of the assumption of Romulus at the Nonae Caprotivae, whereby he was deified as Quirinus, apparently date to the Mid-Fourth Century. It would therefore seem that Roman writers of the Late Republic and Early Principate brought such Fourth Century legends together with what was originally a Fourth Century ritual, although this alone would not necessarily mean the ritual and such legends were connected. From the little that is known of the Poplifugia, it would appear that the populace left the City for the performance of a lustratio around them, not unlike a lustratio as would be made around a Roman legio. A parallel is found at Iguvium where a lustratio populi saw heifers put to flight before they were recaptured and sacrificed. At Athens, at the same time of year as the Poplifugia at Rome, the Bouphonia saw a sacrifice to purify the populace where the sacrificer fled from the scene after the sacrifice much like the Rex Sacrorum at the Regifugium of February. At Rome it seems that the populace itself fled from the sacrifice, as it was made on their behalf and they were taking part in the ritual. Such rites relate to the use of scapegoats the world over, and are generally employed in purification rites intended to rid a city of disease during such seasons when sickness is prevalent (Frazer, The Golden Bough 2.160 ff.). The heat of July and the prevalence of malaria around Rome before the draining of marshlands would explain this ritual at this time of year better than the legends we received. From that we may then pose that the sacrifice was performed to the Di Inferni from whom disease was thought to originate. This would be further supported by the Ludi Apollonares that begin the following day, which were introduced in response to a plague at this time of year.


AUC 696 / 57 BCE: M. Tullius Cicero reaches Brundisium on his return from exile.


AUC 821 / 68 CE: On the third day before the Nones of July for the birth of the diva Matidia a supplication. ~ Fasti Duro Europa

Salonina Matidia was the daughter of Ulpia Marciana, and thus the niece of Trajan. At age ten her father, Praetor G. Saloninus Matidius Patruinus, died and she and her mother went to live with Trajan. With no children of his own Trajan treated Matidia as his daughter. She traveled with the Emperor and was one of his counselors. Matidia first married L. Vibius Sabinus, by which she had two daughters. Matidia's younger daughter, Vibia Sabina, married Hadrian. Vibius Sabinus died sometime after 86 CE and Matidia next married L. Scribonius Libo Rupilio Frugi who became consul in 88 CE. She had two more daughters by Rupilio; Rupilia Faustina married Consul M. Annius Verus and Rupilia Annia married Consul L. Fundanius Lamia Aelianus. On 29 August 112 Matidia was named Augusta. After her death in 119 CE, her son-in-law and second cousin, Hadrian, gave her funeral oration and had Matidia deified. He built a Temple of Matidia north-east of the Pantheon, which he commemorated on one of his coins.


Today's thought is from Sextus 60:

"To live, indeed, is not in our power, but to live rightly is."
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68413 From: Cn. Cornelius Lentulus Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: 5th Pannonian Nova Roma Summer Camp Closed
Cn. Lentulus legatus pro praetore Pannoniae Quiritibus s. p. d.

I announce you that the 5th Reenactor Camp of the Nova Roman Provincia Pannonia co-organized by the Gladius Reenactor Organization (it was their 7th camp) has been sollemnly closed today.

We are all very tired but also very content and happy. Nova Roma's name is more glorious than ever, Nova Roma is now the living heart of real life Romanitas, thanks to the Gods! I am very happy to see our Amrican brothers are going ahead with the American Nova Roman Conventus, too.

Good luck!

In Pannonia we had a wonderful week between June 29 and July 5. Photos coming soon!

I'm now slowly checking all my mails I received during this week, and I'll answer all soon.

Be patient please!

Gratias vobis ago!

VIVAT NOVA ROMA!

Cn. Cornelius Lentulus, pontifex
Legatus pro praetore Pannoniae
Centurio Legionis XXI Rapacis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68414 From: L Julia Aquila Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: I.Aquila/happy 4th July to all
Salve Gaius Aquillius!

I do hope you and your lovely family had a wonderful fourth!
I saw the new additions to the slideshow on the restaurant site - most notably the "boss" of the household guarding the atrium, Trianus!
I do hope that you and your family will be able to make the drive up to Nashville for our very first NR Conventus.
Thank you for your kind words, mi amici.

Vale,
Julia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "c.aqvillivs_rota" <c.aqvillivs_rota@...> wrote:
>
>
> Salvete omnes,
>
> HAPPY 4th of JULY
>
> As Aquila has beautifully showed in her posting, it is a great thing and
> reminder for all NR to see how vivid the spirit of Rome still is, even
> today in our presence. The 4th of July in the U.S. is something to be
> proud of, for every NR citizen no matter where they live and what their
> political view is. The 4th of July, the day of American Independence is
> also a symbol of surviving present time classic Graeco/Roman ideals. A
> day for everyone of us. Its message shall cross national borders without
> resentments and inspire not only U.S. Citizens, but all of NR and all
> occidental patriots out there as a culturally unifying statement.
>
> Thank you Iulia for this nice posting
>
> TO ALL OUT THERE
>
> HAPPY 4th of JULY 2009/MMDCLXII
>
>
>
> C. AQVILLIVS ROTA
>
> PROCURATOR
>
> PROVINCIA AMERICA AUSTRORIENTALIS
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68415 From: L Julia Aquila Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: 5th Pannonian Nova Roma Summer Camp Closed
Salve amici!

I will be looking forward to your photos, as usual I am sure I will enjoy them!

Vale,
Julia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cn. Cornelius Lentulus" <cn_corn_lent@...> wrote:
>
>
> Cn. Lentulus legatus pro praetore Pannoniae Quiritibus s. p. d.
>
> I announce you that the 5th Reenactor Camp of the Nova Roman Provincia Pannonia co-organized by the Gladius Reenactor Organization (it was their 7th camp) has been sollemnly closed today.
>
> We are all very tired but also very content and happy. Nova Roma's name is more glorious than ever, Nova Roma is now the living heart of real life Romanitas, thanks to the Gods! I am very happy to see our Amrican brothers are going ahead with the American Nova Roman Conventus, too.
>
> Good luck!
>
> In Pannonia we had a wonderful week between June 29 and July 5. Photos coming soon!
>
> I'm now slowly checking all my mails I received during this week, and I'll answer all soon.
>
> Be patient please!
>
> Gratias vobis ago!
>
> VIVAT NOVA ROMA!
>
> Cn. Cornelius Lentulus, pontifex
> Legatus pro praetore Pannoniae
> Centurio Legionis XXI Rapacis
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68416 From: Maior Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: 5th Pannonian Nova Roma Summer Camp Closed
-Salve Lentule amice;
can't wait to hear from you and as Julia Aquila said - to see all the wonderful photos!
optissime vale
M. Hortensia Maior
>
> Salve amici!
>
> I will be looking forward to your photos, as usual I am sure I will enjoy them!
>
> Vale,
> Julia
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cn. Cornelius Lentulus" <cn_corn_lent@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Cn. Lentulus legatus pro praetore Pannoniae Quiritibus s. p. d.
> >
> > I announce you that the 5th Reenactor Camp of the Nova Roman Provincia Pannonia co-organized by the Gladius Reenactor Organization (it was their 7th camp) has been sollemnly closed today.
> >
> > We are all very tired but also very content and happy. Nova Roma's name is more glorious than ever, Nova Roma is now the living heart of real life Romanitas, thanks to the Gods! I am very happy to see our Amrican brothers are going ahead with the American Nova Roman Conventus, too.
> >
> > Good luck!
> >
> > In Pannonia we had a wonderful week between June 29 and July 5. Photos coming soon!
> >
> > I'm now slowly checking all my mails I received during this week, and I'll answer all soon.
> >
> > Be patient please!
> >
> > Gratias vobis ago!
> >
> > VIVAT NOVA ROMA!
> >
> > Cn. Cornelius Lentulus, pontifex
> > Legatus pro praetore Pannoniae
> > Centurio Legionis XXI Rapacis
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68418 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Modianus refusal to follow the rules cost us our server.
Salvete,

In case anyone didn't catch that, Modianus' last sentence, "By their fruits you will know them", is a quote from the New Testament, Matthew 7:16/20.

I'm not sure how rhetorically effective it is quoting Jesus in the forum of a Roman pagan recon org. ;)

Valete,

Gualterus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, David Kling <tau.athanasios@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete:
>
> And it is funny because Matt Hucke, who I still consider Marcus Octavius
> Gracchus, is and shall remain a friend of mine. He and I were on good terms
> through-out his decision to disassociate with Nova Roma. And let us not
> forget the reason he resigned from Nova Roma. I have endured the abuse
> presented by Quintus Fabius Maximus and his ilk for years, it is nothing new
> and if that is how he makes himself feel important then so be it. All one
> has to ask is, "how many times were you elected censor when you ran?" By
> their fruits you will know them.
>
> Valete:
>
> Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus
>
> On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 3:42 AM, lathyrus77 <lathyrus77@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Since matt isn't a member of NR, it shouldn't matter to him about the
> > tribunes(2 of them) and modianus. A professional would do the job he's paid
> > to do without a problem.
> >
> > Isn't it nice when you have a senator and pontifex calling another senator
> > and pontifex a "jerk-off"? LOL @ Nova Roma.
> >
> > -Anna
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > QFabiusMaxmi@ wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > In a message dated 7/4/2009 8:22:49 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> > > tau.athanasios@ writes:
> > >
> > > He felt it was necessary to disassociate from Nova Roma and disolve the
> > > professional relationship of website host. This is a very reasonable
> > > request since Nova Roma politics can be difficult and likely it was hard
> > for him
> > > to completely divorce himself since he was linked via the professional
> > > relationship he had because we were hosted on his server
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hey jerk-off!
> > >
> > > Maybe you should tell these good people of NOVA ROMA
> > > That YOUR inability to follow the rules that COST us this
> > > server. Oh yeah that's true citizens of Nova Roma. This wanna-be
> > > non identity is gonna cost you more money next year because he did not
> > > have the stones to withdraw once the Tribunes pronounced his candidacy
> > > illegal.
> > > For Modianus its all about him, and when the Consuls demanded that Matt
> > > defy the
> > > Tribunes, Matt pulled the plug rather then do so. Matt H has more Roman
> > > in his little finger
> > > then Modanius has in his whole body. Or should we call Modianus, Sir Davy
> >
> > > The Christian arch bishop. or should we call him...nah who knows what
> > > name or religion he's representing this week?
> > > The point is Modianus the mediocre could have withdrew and everyone would
> >
> > > have cheered his sacrifice. But no, Sir Davy's, I mean Modianus' ego is
> > > just too
> > > fragile to even consider such a thing. So we lost Matt, and the Roman
> > > people here
> > > lost a lot. Oh wait we still have Modainus. Aren't we lucky? Oh gee,
> > > Modainus is a pinhead.
> > > And he doesn't have a server farm. Oh yeah, we got the best of that deal
> > > didn't we?
> > >
> > > Fabius
> > >
> > >
> > > **************Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the
> > > grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000005)
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68419 From: David Kling Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Modianus refusal to follow the rules cost us our server.
LOL!  "By their fruits you will know them" has become so cliche in our culture that it's obvious your fishing for fodder in which to attack me.  Keep going, I can take your abuse.  It sad, but amusing.

Vale;

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus

On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 1:37 PM, gualterus_graecus <waltms1@...> wrote:


Salvete,

In case anyone didn't catch that, Modianus' last sentence, "By their fruits you will know them", is a quote from the New Testament, Matthew 7:16/20.

I'm not sure how rhetorically effective it is quoting Jesus in the forum of a Roman pagan recon org. ;)

Valete,

Gualterus




Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68420 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Modianus refusal to follow the rules cost us our server.
Salve,

Hehe, I wasn't really fishing, but I found the quotation amusing. Had it come from some random person I wouldn't have paid much attention, but being that you're closely familiar with New Testament material I figured it would be something more than random cliche-grabbing. Was I mistaken? You had no idea it was in origin a Jesus quote?

Vale,

Gualterus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, David Kling <tau.athanasios@...> wrote:
>
> LOL! "By their fruits you will know them" has become so cliche in our
> culture that it's obvious your fishing for fodder in which to attack me.
> Keep going, I can take your abuse. It sad, but amusing.
>
> Vale;
>
> Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus
>
> On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 1:37 PM, gualterus_graecus <waltms1@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Salvete,
> >
> > In case anyone didn't catch that, Modianus' last sentence, "By their fruits
> > you will know them", is a quote from the New Testament, Matthew 7:16/20.
> >
> > I'm not sure how rhetorically effective it is quoting Jesus in the forum of
> > a Roman pagan recon org. ;)
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > Gualterus
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68421 From: Maior Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Modianus refusal to follow the rules cost us our server.
Salvete;
Gualtere, Modianus is a student in theological seminary and a gnostic christian as you well know
Please we're having some very interesting and friendly discussions on the ML that involve Rome, lets keep that going.

It is the Ludi Apollinares so we could use a line perhaps engraved from the oracle of Delphi 'know thyself';-)
optime vale
M. Hortensia Maio

>
> Hehe, I wasn't really fishing, but I found the quotation amusing. Had it come from some random person I wouldn't have paid much attention, but being that you're closely familiar with New Testament material I figured it would be something more than random cliche-grabbing. Was I mistaken? You had no idea it was in origin a Jesus quote?
>
> Vale,
>
> Gualterus
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, David Kling <tau.athanasios@> wrote:
> >
> > LOL! "By their fruits you will know them" has become so cliche in our
> > culture that it's obvious your fishing for fodder in which to attack me.
> > Keep going, I can take your abuse. It sad, but amusing.
> >
> > Vale;
> >
> > Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus
> >
> > On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 1:37 PM, gualterus_graecus <waltms1@> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Salvete,
> > >
> > > In case anyone didn't catch that, Modianus' last sentence, "By their fruits
> > > you will know them", is a quote from the New Testament, Matthew 7:16/20.
> > >
> > > I'm not sure how rhetorically effective it is quoting Jesus in the forum of
> > > a Roman pagan recon org. ;)
> > >
> > > Valete,
> > >
> > > Gualterus
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68422 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Modianus refusal to follow the rules cost us our server.
Salve Maior,

Well, you have attacked people, quite viciously at times, for invoking any sort of Christian idea or concept, even if it was some unconscious outflow of modern culture, and insisted we should be careful to promote more traditional Roman values. So, has your attitude now changed about that?

Vale,

Gualterus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete;
> Gualtere, Modianus is a student in theological seminary and a gnostic christian as you well know
> Please we're having some very interesting and friendly discussions on the ML that involve Rome, lets keep that going.
>
> It is the Ludi Apollinares so we could use a line perhaps engraved from the oracle of Delphi 'know thyself';-)
> optime vale
> M. Hortensia Maio
>
> >
> > Hehe, I wasn't really fishing, but I found the quotation amusing. Had it come from some random person I wouldn't have paid much attention, but being that you're closely familiar with New Testament material I figured it would be something more than random cliche-grabbing. Was I mistaken? You had no idea it was in origin a Jesus quote?
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Gualterus
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, David Kling <tau.athanasios@> wrote:
> > >
> > > LOL! "By their fruits you will know them" has become so cliche in our
> > > culture that it's obvious your fishing for fodder in which to attack me.
> > > Keep going, I can take your abuse. It sad, but amusing.
> > >
> > > Vale;
> > >
> > > Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus
> > >
> > > On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 1:37 PM, gualterus_graecus <waltms1@> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Salvete,
> > > >
> > > > In case anyone didn't catch that, Modianus' last sentence, "By their fruits
> > > > you will know them", is a quote from the New Testament, Matthew 7:16/20.
> > > >
> > > > I'm not sure how rhetorically effective it is quoting Jesus in the forum of
> > > > a Roman pagan recon org. ;)
> > > >
> > > > Valete,
> > > >
> > > > Gualterus
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68423 From: David Kling Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Modianus refusal to follow the rules cost us our server.
Of course I know where it is located, but that doesn't mean it isn't cliche!  Just because something is in the New Testament doesn't make it "bad." 

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus

On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 1:50 PM, gualterus_graecus <waltms1@...> wrote:


Salve,

Hehe, I wasn't really fishing, but I found the quotation amusing. Had it come from some random person I wouldn't have paid much attention, but being that you're closely familiar with New Testament material I figured it would be something more than random cliche-grabbing. Was I mistaken? You had no idea it was in origin a Jesus quote?

Vale,



Gualterus



Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68424 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Modianus refusal to follow the rules cost us our server.
Salve,

But I don't think it makes it particularly effective rhetorically, either, in our context here. So, you saying it seemed especially amusing to me and I couldn't help but point it out for folks who might not be as familiar with the New Testament as you or I. ;)

Vale,

Gualterus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, David Kling <tau.athanasios@...> wrote:
>
> Of course I know where it is located, but that doesn't mean it isn't
> cliche! Just because something is in the New Testament doesn't make it
> "bad."
>
> Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus
>
> On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 1:50 PM, gualterus_graecus <waltms1@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Salve,
> >
> > Hehe, I wasn't really fishing, but I found the quotation amusing. Had it
> > come from some random person I wouldn't have paid much attention, but being
> > that you're closely familiar with New Testament material I figured it would
> > be something more than random cliche-grabbing. Was I mistaken? You had no
> > idea it was in origin a Jesus quote?
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> >
> > Gualterus
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68425 From: David Kling Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Modianus refusal to follow the rules cost us our server.
I think it made you look petty.  But to each his or her own.

Whatever makes you happy.

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus

On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 2:22 PM, gualterus_graecus <waltms1@...> wrote:


Salve,

But I don't think it makes it particularly effective rhetorically, either, in our context here. So, you saying it seemed especially amusing to me and I couldn't help but point it out for folks who might not be as familiar with the New Testament as you or I. ;)



Vale,

Gualterus

Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68426 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Modianus refusal to follow the rules cost us our server.
lol, you're very sensitive, aren't you?

-Gualterus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, David Kling <tau.athanasios@...> wrote:
>
> I think it made you look petty. But to each his or her own.
>
> Whatever makes you happy.
>
> Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus
>
> On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 2:22 PM, gualterus_graecus <waltms1@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Salve,
> >
> > But I don't think it makes it particularly effective rhetorically, either,
> > in our context here. So, you saying it seemed especially amusing to me and I
> > couldn't help but point it out for folks who might not be as familiar with
> > the New Testament as you or I. ;)
> >
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Gualterus
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68427 From: David Kling Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Modianus refusal to follow the rules cost us our server.
Considering that QFM recently attacked me, and now you.  Sensitive?  No.  Tired of the bullshit?  Yeah, kinda.  Used to it?  Yeah, pretty much.

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus

On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 2:30 PM, gualterus_graecus <waltms1@...> wrote:


lol, you're very sensitive, aren't you?

-Gualterus


Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68428 From: galerius_of_rome Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Greetings!
Salve et Salvete,

To citizens of The Regio Georgia and Alabama,I extend greetings.I hope that your holiday weekend has gone well.In the coming days,I will be attempting to contact all of you individually,to encourage as many of you as I can,to try and attend the Conventus in Nashville.This could be a wonderful opportunity to network with fellow Novi Romani in our area and of course with others in North America.

Please let me take this opportunity to invite all of you to contact me at my present email address or feel free to phone me at 770-574-4489 with any questions you may have,regarding the Regio Georgia-Alabama.

Vale et Valete,
Appius Galerius Aurelianus
Praefectus Regio Georgia-Alabama
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68429 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Modianus refusal to follow the rules cost us our server.
Well, there were better, more Roman, ways to respond to QFM than invoking Jesus. ;) If you can't recognize that, then, well, not my problem. You are obviously losing your cool. I think you need to chill out.

-Gualterus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, David Kling <tau.athanasios@...> wrote:
>
> Considering that QFM recently attacked me, and now you. Sensitive? No.
> Tired of the bullshit? Yeah, kinda. Used to it? Yeah, pretty much.
>
> Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus
>
> On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 2:30 PM, gualterus_graecus <waltms1@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > lol, you're very sensitive, aren't you?
> >
> > -Gualterus
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68430 From: David Kling Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Modianus refusal to follow the rules cost us our server.
LOL!  "I think you need to chill out."

You attack me and I need to chill out?  I'm done entertaining this discussion.  Feel free to have the last word.

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus

On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 2:49 PM, gualterus_graecus <waltms1@...> wrote:


Well, there were better, more Roman, ways to respond to QFM than invoking Jesus. ;) If you can't recognize that, then, well, not my problem. You are obviously losing your cool. I think you need to chill out.



-Gualterus



Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68431 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Modianus refusal to follow the rules cost us our server.
Last word? Thanks. ;) If you think criticizing your rhetoric is an "attack", it just demonstrates you're being too sensitive. And, you know the edictum de sermone rules here, so you obviously do need to chill out.

-Gualterus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, David Kling <tau.athanasios@...> wrote:
>
> LOL! "I think you need to chill out."
>
> You attack me and I need to chill out? I'm done entertaining this
> discussion. Feel free to have the last word.
>
> Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus
>
> On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 2:49 PM, gualterus_graecus <waltms1@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Well, there were better, more Roman, ways to respond to QFM than invoking
> > Jesus. ;) If you can't recognize that, then, well, not my problem. You are
> > obviously losing your cool. I think you need to chill out.
> >
> >
> > -Gualterus
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68432 From: Charlie Collins Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Attacks on Censor Modianus
Salvete Omnes,

These continuous attacks on Censor Modianus are getting extermely
tiresome. While I am a member of the Back Alley and are friends with
most of the people on it. I personally am getting turned off by all of
these monotonous attacks. We need to move on to more important
subjects of interest to Nova Romans now and in the future. Modianus is
Censor now and the multiple attempts to anull the results have failed.
Censor Modianus has my unqualified support as of now because of these
repeated attacks on him.

Valete,
Quintus Servilius Priscus
Former Tribunus Plebis
Former Legatus Pro Praetore America Medioccidentalis Superior

--
"TANSTAAFL"
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68433 From: David Kling Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Attacks on Censor Modianus
Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus Quinto Servilio Prisco salutem dicit

Thank you for posting this.  Very much appreciated.

Vale;

Modianus

On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 3:14 PM, Charlie Collins <oldroman@...> wrote:


Salvete Omnes,

These continuous attacks on Censor Modianus are getting extermely
tiresome. While I am a member of the Back Alley and are friends with
most of the people on it. I personally am getting turned off by all of
these monotonous attacks. We need to move on to more important
subjects of interest to Nova Romans now and in the future. Modianus is
Censor now and the multiple attempts to anull the results have failed.
Censor Modianus has my unqualified support as of now because of these
repeated attacks on him.

Valete,
Quintus Servilius Priscus
Former Tribunus Plebis
Former Legatus Pro Praetore America Medioccidentalis Superior

--
"TANSTAAFL"


Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68434 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Modianus refusal to follow the rules cost us our server.
Cato omnibus in for SPD

Salvete!

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, David Kling <tau.athanasios@...> wrote:
> Just because something is in the New Testament doesn't make it
> "bad."
>
> Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus


Finally something with which I actually agree with Fabius Modianus about. But Modianus, be more careful or the wrath of Marca Hortensia may fall on you from a Very Great Height for mentioning the words of Jes- uhhh, You Know Who :)

Valete,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68435 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Modianus refusal to follow the rules cost us our server.
C. Petronius K. Modiano s.p.d.,

> Of course I know where it is located, but that doesn't mean it isn't
> cliche! Just because something is in the New Testament doesn't make it
> "bad."

The Latin cliché with the same idea is "ex ungue leonem."

But why eliminate the clichés from the new testament with the excuse that we are deorum cultores? NT is also a brick of the wall of the culture.

Vale.
C. Petronius Dexter
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68436 From: David Kling Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Modianus refusal to follow the rules cost us our server.
Salve:

I don't know of many people who could read the Gospels (I don't particularly care for the letters of Paul) and say, "Oh, this is worthless."  Within those writings are some good advice.  I particularly like "Don't throw pearls before swine."  Good advice.  You are correct, the NT is a brink in our culture; but it can also be a club in which culture tries to beat us down.  There is a correct use and an incorrect use.  It is knowing the difference.

Vale;

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus

On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 4:21 PM, Gaius Petronius Dexter <jfarnoud94@...> wrote:


C. Petronius K. Modiano s.p.d.,



> Of course I know where it is located, but that doesn't mean it isn't
> cliche! Just because something is in the New Testament doesn't make it
> "bad."

The Latin cliché with the same idea is "ex ungue leonem."

But why eliminate the clichés from the new testament with the excuse that we are deorum cultores? NT is also a brick of the wall of the culture.

Vale.
C. Petronius Dexter



Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68437 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Modianus refusal to follow the rules cost us our server.
Cato M. Hortensiae Maiori sal.

Salve.

Actually, the Ludi Apollinares do not begin until pridie Nones Quinctiliis (6 July). They were originally held only on ante diem IV Idus Quinctilis (13 July) but then grew in popularity to run from 6-13 July. It may have been lengthened to string together the Nonae Caprotinae and the ludi into one big festival.

Vale,

Cato



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete;
...
> It is the Ludi Apollinares so we could use a line perhaps engraved from the oracle of Delphi 'know thyself';-)
> optime vale
> M. Hortensia Maio
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68438 From: Steve Moore Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Attacks on Censor Modianus

M. Valerius Potitus Q. Servilio Prisco SPD.

 

I don’t think you could classify Gualterus’ remark as an “attack”.

 

In any case, I’d like to remind you that Modianus is not Censor, because he could not run for election under the Lex Cornelia Iunia (passed by the People), as has been thoroughly explained. He holds the office illegally, thanks, in good part, to the machinations of Complutensis, the Consul who defrauded the People by convincing them that Modianus could legally stand for election. (Complutensis also defrauded the People by posing as Pasquinus.)

 

Our sole Censor, Paulinus, has agreed to “move on” (as you suggest) and accept Modianus as de facto Censor. That is the most I will allow Modianus.

 

Now, let us see what fruits Modianus will bring forth. That will reveal whether the root is good or rotten. If he can manage to act honorably as censor for the remainder of his (illegal) second term, well and good. But if he acts illegally, then I’ll share another Biblical phrase with those people who supported him: you reap what you sow.

 

Vale.

 

 

 


From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com [mailto: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Charlie Collins
Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 12:15 PM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Attacks on Censor Modianus

 




Salvete Omnes,

These continuous attacks on Censor Modianus are getting extermely
tiresome. While I am a member of the Back Alley and are friends with
most of the people on it. I personally am getting turned off by all of
these monotonous attacks. We need to move on to more important
subjects of interest to Nova Romans now and in the future. Modianus is
Censor now and the multiple attempts to anull the results have failed.
Censor Modianus has my unqualified support as of now because of these
repeated attacks on him.

Valete,
Quintus Servilius Priscus
Former Tribunus Plebis
Former Legatus Pro Praetore America Medioccidentalis Superior

--
"TANSTAAFL"

Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68439 From: Steve Moore Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Ludi Apollinares

M. Valerius Potitus omnibus SPD.

 

Tomorrow, July 6, begins the Ludi Apollinares. I am governor of America Austroccidentalis, and one of our patron deities is Apollo. I invite everyone to post poetry and articles related to Apollo to the Main List during this festival.

 

The first Ludi Apollinares were organized during the Second Punic War by Praetor P. Cornelius Sulla. He was the son of the Flamen Dialis P. Cornelius Sulla is believed to be the first Cornelian to use this cognomen.

 

I will be posting daily, and I hope you join me in honoring Apollo.

 

Valete.

Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68440 From: Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Modianus refusal to follow the rules cost us our server.
Salvete;

On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 3:26 PM, Modianus wrote:
>
> Salve:
>
> [excision] (I don't particularly care for the letters of Paul)
> [excision]  Good advice.
> [excision]
>
> Vale;
>
> Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus
>

=)

Actually Paul's 1st letter to Timothy contains some good wisdom: "No
longer drink water, but wine for the good of your stomach and your
recurring illnesses."

Wise words when you consider that there were few rules of sanitation
followed in so far as water supply was concerned. Doubly so when the
modern medical studies show that moderate intake of red wine is
helpful to overall health.

in felicite - Venator
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68441 From: lathyrus77 Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Attacks on Censor Modianus
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Moore" <astrobear@...> wrote:
>
> M. Valerius Potitus Q. Servilio Prisco SPD.
>
>
>
> I don't think you could classify Gualterus' remark as an "attack".
>
>
>
> In any case, I'd like to remind you that Modianus is not Censor, because he
> could not run for election under the Lex Cornelia Iunia (passed by the
> People), as has been thoroughly explained. He holds the office illegally,
> thanks, in good part, to the machinations of Complutensis, the Consul who
> defrauded the People by convincing them that Modianus could legally stand
> for election. (Complutensis also defrauded the People by posing as
> Pasquinus.)
>
>
>
> Our sole Censor, Paulinus, has agreed to "move on" (as you suggest) and
> accept Modianus as de facto Censor. That is the most I will allow Modianus.
>
>
>
> Now, let us see what fruits Modianus will bring forth. That will reveal
> whether the root is good or rotten. If he can manage to act honorably as
> censor for the remainder of his (illegal) second term, well and good. But if
> he acts illegally, then I'll share another Biblical phrase with those people
> who supported him: you reap what you sow.
>
>
>
> Vale.


Translation: I didn't get my way so I'm gonna whine and pout about it!

-Anna
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68442 From: Maior Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Ludi Apollinares
Salvete;
when I posted about the Ludi Apollinaires remember we are on Roman time, Central European time which is 7 hours ahead of U.S. Eastern Standard Time....It's time for the Ludi Apollinares, which aedile is in charge of the games? I've forgotten.
bene vale
M. Hortensia Maior

>
>
>
> Tomorrow, July 6, begins the Ludi Apollinares. I am governor of America
> Austroccidentalis, and one of our patron deities is Apollo. I invite
> everyone to post poetry and articles related to Apollo to the Main List
> during this festival.
>
>
>
> The first Ludi Apollinares were organized during the Second Punic War by
> Praetor P. Cornelius Sulla. He was the son of the Flamen Dialis P. Cornelius
> Sulla is believed to be the first Cornelian to use this cognomen.
>
>
>
> I will be posting daily, and I hope you join me in honoring Apollo.
>
>
>
> Valete.
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68443 From: Maior Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Attacks on Censor Modianus
Salve Prisce;
are you the Deist? Julia Aquila made a very interesting post about the American Founding Fathers, classics and deism. I just took a book out of the library on this. If you have some links I'd love them.
optime vale
M. Hortensia Maior


-- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, David Kling <tau.athanasios@...> wrote:
>
> Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus Quinto Servilio Prisco salutem dicit
>
> Thank you for posting this. Very much appreciated.
>
> Vale;
>
> Modianus
>
> On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 3:14 PM, Charlie Collins <oldroman@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Salvete Omnes,
> >
> > These continuous attacks on Censor Modianus are getting extermely
> > tiresome. While I am a member of the Back Alley and are friends with
> > most of the people on it. I personally am getting turned off by all of
> > these monotonous attacks. We need to move on to more important
> > subjects of interest to Nova Romans now and in the future. Modianus is
> > Censor now and the multiple attempts to anull the results have failed.
> > Censor Modianus has my unqualified support as of now because of these
> > repeated attacks on him.
> >
> > Valete,
> > Quintus Servilius Priscus
> > Former Tribunus Plebis
> > Former Legatus Pro Praetore America Medioccidentalis Superior
> >
> > --
> > "TANSTAAFL"
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68445 From: Charlie Collins Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Attacks on Censor Modianus
Salve,

Yes, I am the "Deist". Here is the link to the World Union of Deists.
The site has a tremendous amount of info and other stuff on Deism.

http://www.deism.com/

Vale,
Priscus

On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 4:41 PM, Maior<rory12001@...> wrote:
> Salve Prisce;
>  are you the Deist? Julia Aquila made a very interesting post about the American Founding Fathers, classics and deism. I just took a book out of the library on this. If you have some links I'd love them.
>             optime vale
>             M. Hortensia Maior
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68446 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Ludi Apollinares
Cato Maiori sal.

Salve.

Yes, and you posted it at 2.02pm Eastern US time, which was still 5 July in Rome, the day before the ludi Apollinares began.

Vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete;
> when I posted about the Ludi Apollinaires remember we are on Roman time, Central European time which is 7 hours ahead of U.S. Eastern Standard Time....It's time for the Ludi Apollinares, which aedile is in charge of the games? I've forgotten.
> bene vale
> M. Hortensia Maior
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68447 From: Maior Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Deism [ was Attacks on Censor Modianus ]
Salve Prisce;
sorry I didn't mean too put it in caps or sound odd, quite the opposite. I was rather thinking of the connection between Deism and the beginning of Lucretius' great work "De rerum natura" , "On the Nature of Things" where Venus is addressed as Nature...
I took out of the library "The American Deists; Voices of Reason and Dissent in the Early Republic" by Kerry S. Walters. It looks excellent, and I appreciate the link, I'm going to enjoy reading it. Its a great discussion, Rome, the U.S. and French Revolutions etc.
optime vale
Maior

> Salve,
>
> Yes, I am the "Deist". Here is the link to the World Union of Deists.
> The site has a tremendous amount of info and other stuff on Deism.
>
> http://www.deism.com/
>
> Vale,
> Priscus
>
> On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 4:41 PM, Maior<rory12001@...> wrote:
> > Salve Prisce;
> >  are you the Deist? Julia Aquila made a very interesting post about the American Founding Fathers, classics and deism. I just took a book out of the library on this. If you have some links I'd love them.
> >             optime vale
> >             M. Hortensia Maior
> >
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68448 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Roman values [was Re: Modianus refusal to follow the...]
" I think most cultores can live without reminders of Christian holidays or
postings from the Christian bible, which has happened previously. And most
really don't want to hear about Christian cults' infighting or definitions
of heresy."

By most do you mean just you? I know of only a handful of people who
actually objected to Cato's posting on the history of certain Christian
holidays. I only did once, and that was when he said that in actuality
Christianity gave the Yule season its happiness, when really Saturnalia was
just as jovial as Christmas is.

Poplicola

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Maior" <rory12001@...>
Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 4:55 PM
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Roman values [was Re: Modianus refusal to follow
the...]

> Salve Gualtere;
> I think most cultores can live without reminders of Christian holidays or
> postings from the Christian bible, which has happened previously. And most
> really don't want to hear about Christian cults' infighting or definitions
> of heresy.
>
> I did object, when the Senate had to decide whether to make Cato wait a
> year to return to Nova Roma, when our censor Paulinus asked the Senate in
> some biblical way to be merciful. That's not a Roman value, its not
> appropriate especially from the Censor who is the guardian of Roman
> values.
>
> The Romans did excercise clementia; but that was for a brave enemy in
> battle. Quitting your office is very unRoman and not worthy of clementia.
>
> So I didn't object to the phrase, as it isn't pushing a long discussion of
> christianity, christian theology, christian values. It isn't being used to
> justify a magisterial action.
>
> We're Nova Romans and we can live by our values which are noble ones, and
> as we were discussing, inspired the Founding Fathers of the American
> Republic.
> optime vale in pacem deorum
> M. Hortensia Maior
>>
>> Salve,
>>
>> But I don't think it makes it particularly effective rhetorically,
>> either, in our context here. So, you saying it seemed especially amusing
>> to me and I couldn't help but point it out for folks who might not be as
>> familiar with the New Testament as you or I. ;)
>>
>> Vale,
>>
>> Gualterus
>>
>> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, David Kling <tau.athanasios@> wrote:
>> >
>> > Of course I know where it is located, but that doesn't mean it isn't
>> > cliche! Just because something is in the New Testament doesn't make it
>> > "bad."
>> >
>> > Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus
>> >
>> > On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 1:50 PM, gualterus_graecus <waltms1@> wrote:
>> >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Salve,
>> > >
>> > > Hehe, I wasn't really fishing, but I found the quotation amusing. Had
>> > > it
>> > > come from some random person I wouldn't have paid much attention, but
>> > > being
>> > > that you're closely familiar with New Testament material I figured it
>> > > would
>> > > be something more than random cliche-grabbing. Was I mistaken? You
>> > > had no
>> > > idea it was in origin a Jesus quote?
>> > >
>> > > Vale,
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Gualterus
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
>
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68449 From: A. Sempronius Regulus Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: DEISM was Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Attacks on Censor Modianus

I can provide a good bibliography on the deism of the founding fathers, church and state issues, that deism was "divided" (not a good word) between classical theism and the watch-maker, Newtonian universe, watch-maker scientific deism. The deism of the founding fathers helped allow the first Synagogue to be built, the first Mosque, and first Buddhist temple (I think all in Rhode Island) and caused a bit of a scandal because George Washington appointed a Unitarian as chaplain of the Revolutionary Army.
 
There are connections and ties between the Deists and Freemasons that I can also give reputable academic studies on as part of the bibliography.
 

--- On Sun, 7/5/09, Charlie Collins <oldroman@...> wrote:

From: Charlie Collins <oldroman@...>
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Attacks on Censor Modianus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 10:01 PM

Salve,

Yes, I am the "Deist". Here is the link to the World Union of Deists.
The site has a tremendous amount of info and other stuff on Deism.

http://www.deism. com/

Vale,
Priscus

On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 4:41 PM, Maior<rory12001@yahoo. com> wrote:
> Salve Prisce;
>  are you the Deist? Julia Aquila made a very interesting post about the American Founding Fathers, classics and deism. I just took a book out of the library on this. If you have some links I'd love them.
>             optime vale
>             M. Hortensia Maior
>
>

Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68450 From: Maior Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: DEISM was Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Attacks on Censor Modianus
Salve Regule;
I'd love the bibliography on deism and the founding fathers, church and state issues. I know that in France during the Revolution there was a Temple to Reason and of course the names of the months were changed. Roman names were given to children as well.

I daresay with the new physics of subatomic particles. the Newtonian model is dead.
optime vale
Maior

freemasonry isn't an interest of mine but I appreciate the help.
>
>
> I can provide a good bibliography on the deism of the founding fathers, church and state issues, that deism was "divided" (not a good word) between classical theism and the watch-maker, Newtonian universe, watch-maker scientific deism. The deism of the founding fathers helped allow the first Synagogue to be built, the first Mosque, and first Buddhist temple (I think all in Rhode Island) and caused a bit of a scandal because George Washington appointed a Unitarian as chaplain of the Revolutionary Army.
>  
> There are connections and ties between the Deists and Freemasons that I can also give reputable academic studies on as part of the bibliography.
>  
>
> --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Charlie Collins <oldroman@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: Charlie Collins <oldroman@...>
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Attacks on Censor Modianus
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 10:01 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Salve,
>
> Yes, I am the "Deist". Here is the link to the World Union of Deists.
> The site has a tremendous amount of info and other stuff on Deism.
>
> http://www.deism com/
>
> Vale,
> Priscus
>
> On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 4:41 PM, Maior<rory12001@yahoo. com> wrote:
> > Salve Prisce;
> >  are you the Deist? Julia Aquila made a very interesting post about the American Founding Fathers, classics and deism. I just took a book out of the library on this. If you have some links I'd love them.
> >             optime vale
> >             M. Hortensia Maior
> >
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68451 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: DEISM was Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Attacks on Censor Modianus
Salve Maior,

lol, no offense, but I really found this line funny! Yes, we've known about subatomic particles for over a century now and by the 1930s it was clear that Newtonian mechanics was not *wrong*, but *incomplete*, and did not describe particle behavior where very large or very small energies and scales were concerned. It's not especially "new". :P

Vale,

Gualterus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@...> wrote:

> I daresay with the new physics of subatomic particles. the Newtonian model is dead.
> optime vale
> Maior
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68452 From: aerdensrw Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: 5th Pannonian Nova Roma Summer Camp Closed
Lentule--Congratulations on a great summer camp! I'm glad it went well, and I'll bet everyone who attended is tired but happy.

Paulla Corva Gaudialis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68453 From: C. Maria Caeca Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: definition of empire
Salvete Omnes,

While we are primarily concerned with Republican Rome, the roots of her
empire began in the Republic, so I don't think this will be an unprofitable
topic of discussion.

Thomas F. Madden states in his excellent popular history, Empires Of Trust,
that
there are, basically 3 types of empires. There is the empire of conquest;
defined primarily by military conquest for the sake of gaining territory.
Next is the empire of trade, an empire created through commercial ventures,
though strongly supported by either a private of public military presence,
and in many cases, both. The British Empire is the best modern example of
the empire of trade. Finally, there is what Madden calls the Empire of
Trust. This type of empire uses both military force and trade to support
and increase it, but it's most important features are that even the
subjugated tend to trust that empire to A. Keep its word, and do what it
will say it will do: B. protect its subjects and allies: and C. punish
internal breaches of that trust.

This is, of course, an over simplification of the thesis presented, but it
makes my point. Mr. Madden then demonstrated that Rome, (and later the
United States, whose roots can be traced, ideologically, back to Rome), was
an empire of trust. He gave several examples of this, including some where
highly placed Roman officials were executed for abusing their trust, and
those they were set to govern.

The point is that Rome, and subsequently, the U.S. act predictably, and in
accordance with their stated codes of ethic. This is not always true, of
course, for either Government, but is true enough that, in both cases,
Nation States actually sought either entrance into the empire, or allied
status with it.

I found this book fresh and fascinating, and would be most interested in any
comments you all might have, concerning the concepts, or the book, if you've
happened to read it.

C. Maria Caeca
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68454 From: Maior Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: DEISM was Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Attacks on Censor Modianus
-Naturally, I was thinking about Heisenberg and how the behavior of subatomic particles would dent the idea of the Newtonion model. I would think Newtonian deism would rest on an idea that one could predict behavior, but I don't know, not having studied Deism.
vale
Maior

Postscriptum; Poplicola, I deleted my post for the very reason that I don't want to contribute to an argument. I prefer an interesting and amicable discussion.


>
> Salve Maior,
>
> lol, no offense, but I really found this line funny! Yes, we've known about subatomic particles for over a century now and by the 1930s it was clear that Newtonian mechanics was not *wrong*, but *incomplete*, and did not describe particle behavior where very large or very small energies and scales were concerned. It's not especially "new". :P
>
> Vale,
>
> Gualterus
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@> wrote:
>
> > I daresay with the new physics of subatomic particles. the Newtonian model is dead.
> > optime vale
> > Maior
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68455 From: Robert Levee Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: definition of empire
Salve,

I agree that the roots of the Empire began in the Republic.The Republic had greatly added to it's holdings long before the Imperial age.When does a nation actually cross the line into empire.Is not the pursuit of trade one of the main motivations toward empire.What use is just a desire to control more territory,if it is not accompanied with the desire for raw materials to continue growth,especially for the mother country?

Ap Galerius Aurelianus

--- On Sun, 7/5/09, C. Maria Caeca <shoshanahathaway@...> wrote:

> From: C. Maria Caeca <shoshanahathaway@...>
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] definition of empire
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 8:09 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Salvete Omnes,
>
>
>
> While we are primarily concerned with Republican Rome, the
> roots of her
>
> empire began in the Republic, so I don't think this
> will be an unprofitable
>
> topic of discussion.
>
>
>
> Thomas F. Madden states in his excellent popular history,
> Empires Of Trust,
>
> that
>
> there are, basically 3 types of empires. There is the
> empire of conquest;
>
> defined primarily by military conquest for the sake of
> gaining territory.
>
> Next is the empire of trade, an empire created through
> commercial ventures,
>
> though strongly supported by either a private of public
> military presence,
>
> and in many cases, both. The British Empire is the best
> modern example of
>
> the empire of trade. Finally, there is what Madden calls
> the Empire of
>
> Trust. This type of empire uses both military force and
> trade to support
>
> and increase it, but it's most important features are
> that even the
>
> subjugated tend to trust that empire to A. Keep its word,
> and do what it
>
> will say it will do: B. protect its subjects and allies:
> and C. punish
>
> internal breaches of that trust.
>
>
>
> This is, of course, an over simplification of the thesis
> presented, but it
>
> makes my point. Mr. Madden then demonstrated that Rome,
> (and later the
>
> United States, whose roots can be traced, ideologically,
> back to Rome), was
>
> an empire of trust. He gave several examples of this,
> including some where
>
> highly placed Roman officials were executed for abusing
> their trust, and
>
> those they were set to govern.
>
>
>
> The point is that Rome, and subsequently, the U.S. act
> predictably, and in
>
> accordance with their stated codes of ethic. This is not
> always true, of
>
> course, for either Government, but is true enough that, in
> both cases,
>
> Nation States actually sought either entrance into the
> empire, or allied
>
> status with it.
>
>
>
> I found this book fresh and fascinating, and would be most
> interested in any
>
> comments you all might have, concerning the concepts, or
> the book, if you've
>
> happened to read it.
>
>
>
> C. Maria Caeca
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68456 From: C. Maria Caeca Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: definition of empire
Salve,

Of course, commercial interests are vital to any Nation, and to any empire
as well. The Romans certainly conducted trade, and even exploited the raw
materials of those Nations they conquered. they also used military force,
in many instances, though usually either because, or because they wanted
people to think that Rome or her allies were in imminent danger.

However, what set the Roman Empire apart were the less tangible aspects.
For the most part, Rome kept her word; She really *did* defend her client
States and allies, and She really *did* (at least for the most part) abide
by He own laws, and conducted her business with other peoples according to
those laws, and *that* is what set Rome apart from other Imperial Nations.

Rome tried to pretend for a long time that it wasn't an Empire, just a
Republic, saddled with territory it didn't want ... and in many ways, it
didn't want that territory, but felt responsible for Nations into whose
business She had involved Herself. The U.S. found itself in somewhat the
same situation just after the II World War, occupying both Japan and Germany
(with 3 other Nations). Despite the fact that we no longer rule those
countries (thank all the Gods), we *still* maintain a defensive military
presence there (with the accord of the host Nations), and probably always
will.

There would seem, then, to be a marked, though subtle difference between
*having* an empire in some form, and having an acknowledge empire.

C. Maria Caeca
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68457 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: definition of empire
Salve,

I would not merely say that the roots of empire are in the Republican age, but that Republican Rome *was* an Empire from at least the late 4th century BCE onward. The idea that Rome stumbled into territorial expansion and was reluctant to do so is a classical thesis, going back to late Republican historiography, and one which I think substantially oversimplifies the situation.

After the Gauls sacked Rome in 390 BCE, the city became particularly paranoid not only of Gaulish assault from the North, but of its vulnerability in general. It pursued a complex set of treaties and alliances to give itself a buffer, but this wasn't any normal alliance system--once you were in you didn't get out, and if you tried, you were brutally put down. This recalls a recent discussion about the Mafia. ;) Republican Rome also liked planting colonies in order to reinforce its control of various regions, whether they were militarily conquered or entered the fold through the alliance system.

Prior to the catastrophe of 390, Rome didn't simply grow through peaceful expansion, but military action. Indeed, most of Rome's growth in size in the 5th and early 4th centuries was due to war. The conquest of Veii in 396 alone expanded the city's size by about 60%. This meant that the alliances Rome entered into were typically heavily uneven, in Rome's favor. You see this early on in the lopsided treaties with the Latin cities, and then later with everyone else.

Vale,

Gualterus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "C. Maria Caeca" <shoshanahathaway@...> wrote:
>
> Salve,
>
> Of course, commercial interests are vital to any Nation, and to any empire
> as well. The Romans certainly conducted trade, and even exploited the raw
> materials of those Nations they conquered. they also used military force,
> in many instances, though usually either because, or because they wanted
> people to think that Rome or her allies were in imminent danger.
>
> However, what set the Roman Empire apart were the less tangible aspects.
> For the most part, Rome kept her word; She really *did* defend her client
> States and allies, and She really *did* (at least for the most part) abide
> by He own laws, and conducted her business with other peoples according to
> those laws, and *that* is what set Rome apart from other Imperial Nations.
>
> Rome tried to pretend for a long time that it wasn't an Empire, just a
> Republic, saddled with territory it didn't want ... and in many ways, it
> didn't want that territory, but felt responsible for Nations into whose
> business She had involved Herself. The U.S. found itself in somewhat the
> same situation just after the II World War, occupying both Japan and Germany
> (with 3 other Nations). Despite the fact that we no longer rule those
> countries (thank all the Gods), we *still* maintain a defensive military
> presence there (with the accord of the host Nations), and probably always
> will.
>
> There would seem, then, to be a marked, though subtle difference between
> *having* an empire in some form, and having an acknowledge empire.
>
> C. Maria Caeca
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68458 From: Jesse Corradino Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
Am I honestly being accused of imbecility because I do not have the "educated, historical" perspective that all governments up until roughly the twentieth century were organized crime?  That's laughable if you're serious. 
 
Here, I'll give you a bit of homework since you're smarter than everyone-find all of the associated primes to the ring K[x,y,x^3]/(x)/cup(y-x^2) and describe them in terms of a finitely presented basis of the containment ring.  If you do not know the answer to this question then by your own standards you are an imbecile, too, Semproni.
 
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> From: livia.plauta@...
> Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 23:39:18 +0000
> Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
>
> Salve Semproni,
> why does a scholar like you make generalized and reductive statements like this? You know that the matter is much more complicated than that!
>
> On a scale of "organized crime" vs. "totally impersonal State" most societies would fall in various positions around the middle.
> And if you count the ideal, rather than the actual situation, then feudalism falls at one and of the scale, and Greek city-States on the other.
>
> Do I have to tell you how much weight ideology has and has had in the course of history?
>
> Also, it would be nice if you refrained from calling people names in the Main List.
>
> Surely yours must be a case of post-camping exaustion.
>
> Optime vale,
> Livia
>
>
> >
> > Salve,
> >  
> > In ancient terms and perhaps up to the early 20th century, nations were organized crime. The question of definition was a matter a matter on size and who is defining. At one point, the papacy was mafia. Get an educated historical perspective! I'm tired of imbeciles.
> >
> > --- On Sat, 7/4/09, Jesse Corradino <woden66@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: Jesse Corradino <woden66@...>
> > Subject: RE: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
> > To: nova-roma@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Saturday, July 4, 2009, 1:34 AM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Salve,
> >  
> > I wasn't being serious at all about organized crime having anything to do with Greeks.  I was trying to emphasize how the geographical location of an occupying people is not correlated to the phenomenon of organized crime. 
> >  
> > As for the meaning of Camorra, I was taught that it was a greek word, but that was informally, so I'll freely admit to being wrong about that.
> >  
> > Best,
> > JC
> >
> >  
> > > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
> > > From: livia.plauta@ gmail.com
> > > Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 21:03:17 +0000
> > > Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
> > >
> > > Salve Jesse,
> > >
> > > according to my etymological dictionary (Devoto, the most famous one) "Camorra" comes from the mediterranean root *morra, meaning "flock", "gang", reiforced by "ca".
> > >
> > > "'ndrangheta" seems to really come from the Greek "andragathia" , but it could be derived just from the toponym "Andragathia Regio", which designated an area between Calabria and Lucania.
> > >
> > > So, as you see only one of the words can be traced back to Greek roots, and even then, there's nothing strange about it, since Greek obviously left a huge inheritance in local dialects. This doesn't mean that the crimnal organization itself traces back to greek times, only that the word to indicate "virtus" in the local dialect was of Greek, and not Latin derivation.
> > >
> > > Optime vale,
> > > Livia
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Are you serious in this post? You have nothing to back this up with besides a thinly veiled racism against Arabs. Let me paraphrase: Arabs arrived in Italy and transformed southern Italians into primitive throw-backs. Why not the Greeks? Another "careful" observation of geography shows that the areas affected by organized crime in southern Italy were also colonized by the Greeks. Indeed, Camorra and N'drghenta (spelling there) are actually Greek works! So, at the very least, when the Arabs were manufacturing cave-Italians, they were at least clever enough to cover their presence by outwardly expressing themselves with the Greek language. And, similar to your own argument, all of this is taking place literally thousands of years before mainstream scholarship claims anything related to organized crime in the modern sense was happening!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > Windows Liveâ„¢ SkyDriveâ„¢: Get 25 GB of free online storage. Get it on your BlackBerry or iPhone.
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68459 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: Independence Day - A ROMAN TOPIC
Re: Independence Day - A ROMAN TOPIC

  
A. Tullia Scholastica L. Juliae Aquilae quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
  

Salvéte, amícae et amící!

Thank you  Sabine consobríne!

Happy July 4th, Viva La Révolution, and stay clear of misguided pyrotechnics!

Our "Founding Fathers", many Stoic-Deists (look it up ˆ many were, don't have time to `splain Lucy), were most definitely influenced by Ancient Rome particularly the 3rd C. BCE. These were men of classical education - the Revolution would not have had a concrete foundation without our Roman ancestors. The Greeks, too;) They built their platform on the Republican models and of course the virtues of Ancient Rome. This was not a "Christian" model either (again look up what a [Stoic] Deist was during the Age of Enlightenment, of which our FF were students) and then one may realize that Thomas Jefferson's "creator" was a Deist god supporting opinions that this country was not built on Christian Principles. Author Victor J. Stenger covers that statement nicely but one could also check out Article XI of the 1796 treaty with Tripoli that states that the US is not in any way founded on the Christian Religion. Thomas Jefferson's original words in the "Declaration", before Congress changed them (and also omitted his statement against slavery), were "All men are created equal and independent. From that equal creation they derive rights inherent and inalienable." No specific mention of this enigmatic "creator."

Carl Richard's "Greeks & Romans Bearing Gifts: How the Ancients Inspired the Founding Fathers" and also Helen M. Molanphy's 1986 dissertation regarding the classical influences of the American Republic's foundation, neatly gathers the Greco-Roman influences together for us. Still nothing reinforces this knowledge better than delving into the same texts, those classic texts, that our FF had available to them. Sometimes I note that there is a tendency for some to be too influenced by an author who offers his own opinion of the classical texts rather, quoting those books rather than the classical texts these books were based on. I like to adhere to that old adage "don't believe everything you read."

    ATS: Especially if you read it in a language other than that in which it was written.  

If anyone has the time read the exchange of letters between Thomas Jefferson and John Q Adams, while they often make reference to Pythagoras, Plato, Socrates and Xenophene,

    ATS:  Xenophanes, maybe?  Xenophene would be a feminine name...but Xenophane seems more likely even then.  

they are rich with discussions and references to the Ancient Roman authors such as Cicero ("Tully"),

    ATS:  He has another name?  

Livy, Plutarch, the "Plinys," Caesar, Augustus, Apulus, Sallust, Horace, Virgil, Quintilian and Tacitus to name a few. I was able to find a list of reading recommendations from Thomas Jefferson to his nephew Peter Carr:
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/jefferson_enclosure.html.

    ATS:  I got a 404 error from this...

Our classically trained FFs read the classics in Latin, Greek and French, they processed the ancient words directly - discussing them and I feel certain, arguing about them, amongst themselves.

    ATS:  Naturally.  That is the way to do this:  learn the languages.  Third possible Marine response (or so I have heard):  sir/ma’am, no excuses, sir/ma’am.

    I shall post separately on how to learn one of those languages.  

We, here in Nova Roma, can learn from the U.S. FFs, they studied diligently that which they were already well versed in to avoid the mistakes of the Republic that led to its downfall. If anyone, for one moment is fully confident that they are sufficiently informed to know how to avoid such a downfall, than that one, of all people, needs to review and instill within him/herself that enlightening seed of doubt to remove the blinders that might certainly take you, and those of the same mind, over a ledge you cannot see, in "down fall." And so, here again, we learn by our FFs' example that while they were strongly influenced by the Republic, they realized that as a foundation it was a superb model, but as a new nation, it required new, innovative ˆ and revolutionary ˆ concepts to form a new government by the authority of the people for [the] free and independent [united] states.

Bene valéte atque di vos incolumes custodiant

Valete optime,
Julia

Vale et valete quam optime.



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com> , iulius sabinus <iulius_sabinus@...> wrote:
>
> SALVETE AMICI!
>  
> Happy Independence Day and may the Gods bless all my American friends including those who serve with honor on duty, far away from home. I wish them to return safe.
>  
> SPQR
>  
> VALETE,
> T. Iulius Sabinus
>
>
>
>
> "Every individual is the architect of his own fortune" - Appius Claudius
>

  
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68460 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
I don't recall Sempronius pretending to know math?

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Jesse Corradino" <woden66@...>
Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 8:56 PM
To: <nova-roma@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS

>
> Am I honestly being accused of imbecility because I do not have the
> "educated, historical" perspective that all governments up until roughly
> the twentieth century were organized crime? That's laughable if you're
> serious.
>
>
>
> Here, I'll give you a bit of homework since you're smarter than
> everyone-find all of the associated primes to the ring
> K[x,y,x^3]/(x)/cup(y-x^2) and describe them in terms of a finitely
> presented basis of the containment ring. If you do not know the answer to
> this question then by your own standards you are an imbecile, too,
> Semproni.
>
>
>> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>> From: livia.plauta@...
>> Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 23:39:18 +0000
>> Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
>>
>> Salve Semproni,
>> why does a scholar like you make generalized and reductive statements
>> like this? You know that the matter is much more complicated than that!
>>
>> On a scale of "organized crime" vs. "totally impersonal State" most
>> societies would fall in various positions around the middle.
>> And if you count the ideal, rather than the actual situation, then
>> feudalism falls at one and of the scale, and Greek city-States on the
>> other.
>>
>> Do I have to tell you how much weight ideology has and has had in the
>> course of history?
>>
>> Also, it would be nice if you refrained from calling people names in the
>> Main List.
>>
>> Surely yours must be a case of post-camping exaustion.
>>
>> Optime vale,
>> Livia
>>
>>
>> >
>> > Salve,
>> > Â
>> > In ancient terms and perhaps up to the early 20th century, nations were
>> > organized crime. The question of definition was a matter a matter on
>> > size and who is defining. At one point, the papacy was mafia. Get an
>> > educated historical perspective! I'm tired of imbeciles.
>> >
>> > --- On Sat, 7/4/09, Jesse Corradino <woden66@...> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > From: Jesse Corradino <woden66@...>
>> > Subject: RE: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
>> > To: nova-roma@yahoogroups.com
>> > Date: Saturday, July 4, 2009, 1:34 AM
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Salve,
>> > Â
>> > I wasn't being serious at all about organized crime having anything to
>> > do with Greeks. I was trying to emphasize how the geographical
>> > location of an occupying people is not correlated to the phenomenon of
>> > organized crime.Â
>> > Â
>> > As for the meaning of Camorra, I was taught that it was a greek word,
>> > but that was informally, so I'll freely admit to being wrong about
>> > that.
>> > Â
>> > Best,
>> > JC
>> >
>> > Â
>> > > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
>> > > From: livia.plauta@ gmail.com
>> > > Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 21:03:17 +0000
>> > > Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
>> > >
>> > > Salve Jesse,
>> > >
>> > > according to my etymological dictionary (Devoto, the most famous one)
>> > > "Camorra" comes from the mediterranean root *morra, meaning "flock",
>> > > "gang", reiforced by "ca".
>> > >
>> > > "'ndrangheta" seems to really come from the Greek "andragathia" , but
>> > > it could be derived just from the toponym "Andragathia Regio", which
>> > > designated an area between Calabria and Lucania.
>> > >
>> > > So, as you see only one of the words can be traced back to Greek
>> > > roots, and even then, there's nothing strange about it, since Greek
>> > > obviously left a huge inheritance in local dialects. This doesn't
>> > > mean that the crimnal organization itself traces back to greek times,
>> > > only that the word to indicate "virtus" in the local dialect was of
>> > > Greek, and not Latin derivation.
>> > >
>> > > Optime vale,
>> > > Livia
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Are you serious in this post? You have nothing to back this up with
>> > > > besides a thinly veiled racism against Arabs. Let me paraphrase:
>> > > > Arabs arrived in Italy and transformed southern Italians into
>> > > > primitive throw-backs. Why not the Greeks? Another "careful"
>> > > > observation of geography shows that the areas affected by organized
>> > > > crime in southern Italy were also colonized by the Greeks. Indeed,
>> > > > Camorra and N'drghenta (spelling there) are actually Greek works!
>> > > > So, at the very least, when the Arabs were manufacturing
>> > > > cave-Italians, they were at least clever enough to cover their
>> > > > presence by outwardly expressing themselves with the Greek
>> > > > language. And, similar to your own argument, all of this is taking
>> > > > place literally thousands of years before mainstream scholarship
>> > > > claims anything related to organized crime in the modern sense was
>> > > > happening!
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
>> > >
>> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Windows Liveâ„¢ SkyDriveâ„¢: Get 25 GB of free online storage. Get it
>> > on your BlackBerry or iPhone.
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail® has ever-growing storage! Don’t worry about storage limits.
> http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage_062009
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68461 From: Robert Levee Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
Yes and where is the relativity in that?

--- On Sun, 7/5/09, Q. Valerius Poplicola <q.valerius.poplicola@...> wrote:

> From: Q. Valerius Poplicola <q.valerius.poplicola@...>
> Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 10:21 PM
> I don't recall Sempronius pretending
> to know math?
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Jesse Corradino" <woden66@...>
> Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 8:56 PM
> To: <nova-roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
>
> >
> > Am I honestly being accused of imbecility because I do
> not have the
> > "educated, historical" perspective that all
> governments up until roughly
> > the twentieth century were organized crime? 
> That's laughable if you're
> > serious.
> >
> >
> >
> > Here, I'll give you a bit of homework since you're
> smarter than
> > everyone-find all of the associated primes to the ring
>
> > K[x,y,x^3]/(x)/cup(y-x^2) and describe them in terms
> of a finitely
> > presented basis of the containment ring.  If you
> do not know the answer to
> > this question then by your own standards you are an
> imbecile, too,
> > Semproni.
> >
> >
> >> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> >> From: livia.plauta@...
> >> Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 23:39:18 +0000
> >> Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
> >>
> >> Salve Semproni,
> >> why does a scholar like you make generalized and
> reductive statements
> >> like this? You know that the matter is much more
> complicated than that!
> >>
> >> On a scale of "organized crime" vs. "totally
> impersonal State" most
> >> societies would fall in various positions around
> the middle.
> >> And if you count the ideal, rather than the actual
> situation, then
> >> feudalism falls at one and of the scale, and Greek
> city-States on the
> >> other.
> >>
> >> Do I have to tell you how much weight ideology has
> and has had in the
> >> course of history?
> >>
> >> Also, it would be nice if you refrained from
> calling people names in the
> >> Main List.
> >>
> >> Surely yours must be a case of post-camping
> exaustion.
> >>
> >> Optime vale,
> >> Livia
> >>
> >>
> >> >
> >> > Salve,
> >> > Â
> >> > In ancient terms and perhaps up to the early
> 20th century, nations were
> >> > organized crime. The question of definition
> was a matter a matter on
> >> > size and who is defining. At one point, the
> papacy was mafia. Get an
> >> > educated historical perspective! I'm tired
> of imbeciles.
> >> >
> >> > --- On Sat, 7/4/09, Jesse Corradino
> <woden66@...> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > From: Jesse Corradino <woden66@...>
> >> > Subject: RE: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
> >> > To: nova-roma@yahoogroups.com
> >> > Date: Saturday, July 4, 2009, 1:34 AM
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Salve,
> >> > Â
> >> > I wasn't being serious at all about
> organized crime having anything to
> >> > do with Greeks.  I was trying to
> emphasize how the geographical
> >> > location of an occupying people is not
> correlated to the phenomenon of
> >> > organized crime.Â
> >> > Â
> >> > As for the meaning of Camorra, I was taught
> that it was a greek word,
> >> > but that was informally, so I'll freely admit
> to being wrong about
> >> > that.
> >> > Â
> >> > Best,
> >> > JC
> >> >
> >> > Â
> >> > > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
> >> > > From: livia.plauta@ gmail.com
> >> > > Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 21:03:17 +0000
> >> > > Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and
> ARABS
> >> > >
> >> > > Salve Jesse,
> >> > >
> >> > > according to my etymological dictionary
> (Devoto, the most famous one)
> >> > > "Camorra" comes from the mediterranean
> root *morra, meaning "flock",
> >> > > "gang", reiforced by "ca".
> >> > >
> >> > > "'ndrangheta" seems to really come from
> the Greek "andragathia" , but
> >> > > it could be derived just from the
> toponym "Andragathia Regio", which
> >> > > designated an area between Calabria and
> Lucania.
> >> > >
> >> > > So, as you see only one of the words can
> be traced back to Greek
> >> > > roots, and even then, there's nothing
> strange about it, since Greek
> >> > > obviously left a huge inheritance in
> local dialects. This doesn't
> >> > > mean that the crimnal organization
> itself traces back to greek times,
> >> > > only that the word to indicate "virtus"
> in the local dialect was of
> >> > > Greek, and not Latin derivation.
> >> > >
> >> > > Optime vale,
> >> > > Livia
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Are you serious in this post? You
> have nothing to back this up with
> >> > > > besides a thinly veiled racism
> against Arabs. Let me paraphrase:
> >> > > > Arabs arrived in Italy and
> transformed southern Italians into
> >> > > > primitive throw-backs. Why not the
> Greeks? Another "careful"
> >> > > > observation of geography shows that
> the areas affected by organized
> >> > > > crime in southern Italy were also
> colonized by the Greeks. Indeed,
> >> > > > Camorra and N'drghenta (spelling
> there) are actually Greek works!
> >> > > > So, at the very least, when the
> Arabs were manufacturing
> >> > > > cave-Italians, they were at least
> clever enough to cover their
> >> > > > presence by outwardly expressing
> themselves with the Greek
> >> > > > language. And, similar to your own
> argument, all of this is taking
> >> > > > place literally thousands of years
> before mainstream scholarship
> >> > > > claims anything related to
> organized crime in the modern sense was
> >> > > > happening!
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
> >> > >
> >> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Windows Liveâ„¢ SkyDriveâ„¢: Get 25
> GB of free online storage. Get it
> >> > on your BlackBerry or iPhone.
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> _________________________________________________________________
> > Hotmail® has ever-growing storage! Don’t worry
> about storage limits.
> > http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage_062009
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>     mailto:Nova-Roma-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68462 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2009-07-05
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
Jesse, with respect to him, made a false analogy.

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Robert Levee" <galerius_of_rome@...>
Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 9:53 PM
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS

>
> Yes and where is the relativity in that?
>
> --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Q. Valerius Poplicola <q.valerius.poplicola@...>
> wrote:
>
>> From: Q. Valerius Poplicola <q.valerius.poplicola@...>
>> Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
>> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>> Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 10:21 PM
>> I don't recall Sempronius pretending
>> to know math?
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Jesse Corradino" <woden66@...>
>> Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 8:56 PM
>> To: <nova-roma@yahoogroups.com>
>> Subject: RE: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
>>
>> >
>> > Am I honestly being accused of imbecility because I do
>> not have the
>> > "educated, historical" perspective that all
>> governments up until roughly
>> > the twentieth century were organized crime?
>> That's laughable if you're
>> > serious.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Here, I'll give you a bit of homework since you're
>> smarter than
>> > everyone-find all of the associated primes to the ring
>>
>> > K[x,y,x^3]/(x)/cup(y-x^2) and describe them in terms
>> of a finitely
>> > presented basis of the containment ring. If you
>> do not know the answer to
>> > this question then by your own standards you are an
>> imbecile, too,
>> > Semproni.
>> >
>> >
>> >> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>> >> From: livia.plauta@...
>> >> Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 23:39:18 +0000
>> >> Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
>> >>
>> >> Salve Semproni,
>> >> why does a scholar like you make generalized and
>> reductive statements
>> >> like this? You know that the matter is much more
>> complicated than that!
>> >>
>> >> On a scale of "organized crime" vs. "totally
>> impersonal State" most
>> >> societies would fall in various positions around
>> the middle.
>> >> And if you count the ideal, rather than the actual
>> situation, then
>> >> feudalism falls at one and of the scale, and Greek
>> city-States on the
>> >> other.
>> >>
>> >> Do I have to tell you how much weight ideology has
>> and has had in the
>> >> course of history?
>> >>
>> >> Also, it would be nice if you refrained from
>> calling people names in the
>> >> Main List.
>> >>
>> >> Surely yours must be a case of post-camping
>> exaustion.
>> >>
>> >> Optime vale,
>> >> Livia
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > Salve,
>> >> > Â
>> >> > In ancient terms and perhaps up to the early
>> 20th century, nations were
>> >> > organized crime. The question of definition
>> was a matter a matter on
>> >> > size and who is defining. At one point, the
>> papacy was mafia. Get an
>> >> > educated historical perspective! I'm tired
>> of imbeciles.
>> >> >
>> >> > --- On Sat, 7/4/09, Jesse Corradino
>> <woden66@...> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > From: Jesse Corradino <woden66@...>
>> >> > Subject: RE: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
>> >> > To: nova-roma@yahoogroups.com
>> >> > Date: Saturday, July 4, 2009, 1:34 AM
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Salve,
>> >> > Â
>> >> > I wasn't being serious at all about
>> organized crime having anything to
>> >> > do with Greeks. I was trying to
>> emphasize how the geographical
>> >> > location of an occupying people is not
>> correlated to the phenomenon of
>> >> > organized crime.Â
>> >> > Â
>> >> > As for the meaning of Camorra, I was taught
>> that it was a greek word,
>> >> > but that was informally, so I'll freely admit
>> to being wrong about
>> >> > that.
>> >> > Â
>> >> > Best,
>> >> > JC
>> >> >
>> >> > Â
>> >> > > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
>> >> > > From: livia.plauta@ gmail.com
>> >> > > Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 21:03:17 +0000
>> >> > > Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and
>> ARABS
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Salve Jesse,
>> >> > >
>> >> > > according to my etymological dictionary
>> (Devoto, the most famous one)
>> >> > > "Camorra" comes from the mediterranean
>> root *morra, meaning "flock",
>> >> > > "gang", reiforced by "ca".
>> >> > >
>> >> > > "'ndrangheta" seems to really come from
>> the Greek "andragathia" , but
>> >> > > it could be derived just from the
>> toponym "Andragathia Regio", which
>> >> > > designated an area between Calabria and
>> Lucania.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > So, as you see only one of the words can
>> be traced back to Greek
>> >> > > roots, and even then, there's nothing
>> strange about it, since Greek
>> >> > > obviously left a huge inheritance in
>> local dialects. This doesn't
>> >> > > mean that the crimnal organization
>> itself traces back to greek times,
>> >> > > only that the word to indicate "virtus"
>> in the local dialect was of
>> >> > > Greek, and not Latin derivation.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Optime vale,
>> >> > > Livia
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Are you serious in this post? You
>> have nothing to back this up with
>> >> > > > besides a thinly veiled racism
>> against Arabs. Let me paraphrase:
>> >> > > > Arabs arrived in Italy and
>> transformed southern Italians into
>> >> > > > primitive throw-backs. Why not the
>> Greeks? Another "careful"
>> >> > > > observation of geography shows that
>> the areas affected by organized
>> >> > > > crime in southern Italy were also
>> colonized by the Greeks. Indeed,
>> >> > > > Camorra and N'drghenta (spelling
>> there) are actually Greek works!
>> >> > > > So, at the very least, when the
>> Arabs were manufacturing
>> >> > > > cave-Italians, they were at least
>> clever enough to cover their
>> >> > > > presence by outwardly expressing
>> themselves with the Greek
>> >> > > > language. And, similar to your own
>> argument, all of this is taking
>> >> > > > place literally thousands of years
>> before mainstream scholarship
>> >> > > > claims anything related to
>> organized crime in the modern sense was
>> >> > > > happening!
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Windows Liveâ„¢ SkyDriveâ„¢: Get 25
>> GB of free online storage. Get it
>> >> > on your BlackBerry or iPhone.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> Yahoo! Groups Links
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> > Hotmail® has ever-growing storage! Don’t worry
>> about storage limits.
>> > http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage_062009
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>> mailto:Nova-Roma-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68463 From: Jesse Corradino Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
I'm trying to ridicule his unrealistically high expectations of other's to be aware of some personal understanding that he has of academic information, not create an analogy between how knowing elementary commutative algebra is like knowing history.  To wit, why should I be expected to be aware of how he perceives political science through the ages when it is clearly an idiosyncratic position of his?  Unless you want to try to argue there is a standard consensus among scholars that all governments were organized crime until the twentieth century, I hardly feel that it is fair to label me as an imbecile for being unfamiliar with that idea at the outset of a conversation.
 
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> From: q.valerius.poplicola@...
> Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 22:24:02 -0500
> Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
>
> Jesse, with respect to him, made a false analogy.
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Robert Levee" <galerius_of_rome@...>
> Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 9:53 PM
> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
>
> >
> > Yes and where is the relativity in that?
> >
> > --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Q. Valerius Poplicola <q.valerius.poplicola@...>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> From: Q. Valerius Poplicola <q.valerius.poplicola@...>
> >> Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
> >> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> >> Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 10:21 PM
> >> I don't recall Sempronius pretending
> >> to know math?
> >>
> >> --------------------------------------------------
> >> From: "Jesse Corradino" <woden66@...>
> >> Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 8:56 PM
> >> To: <nova-roma@yahoogroups.com>
> >> Subject: RE: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
> >>
> >> >
> >> > Am I honestly being accused of imbecility because I do
> >> not have the
> >> > "educated, historical" perspective that all
> >> governments up until roughly
> >> > the twentieth century were organized crime?
> >> That's laughable if you're
> >> > serious.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Here, I'll give you a bit of homework since you're
> >> smarter than
> >> > everyone-find all of the associated primes to the ring
> >>
> >> > K[x,y,x^3]/(x)/cup(y-x^2) and describe them in terms
> >> of a finitely
> >> > presented basis of the containment ring. If you
> >> do not know the answer to
> >> > this question then by your own standards you are an
> >> imbecile, too,
> >> > Semproni.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> >> >> From: livia.plauta@...
> >> >> Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 23:39:18 +0000
> >> >> Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
> >> >>
> >> >> Salve Semproni,
> >> >> why does a scholar like you make generalized and
> >> reductive statements
> >> >> like this? You know that the matter is much more
> >> complicated than that!
> >> >>
> >> >> On a scale of "organized crime" vs. "totally
> >> impersonal State" most
> >> >> societies would fall in various positions around
> >> the middle.
> >> >> And if you count the ideal, rather than the actual
> >> situation, then
> >> >> feudalism falls at one and of the scale, and Greek
> >> city-States on the
> >> >> other.
> >> >>
> >> >> Do I have to tell you how much weight ideology has
> >> and has had in the
> >> >> course of history?
> >> >>
> >> >> Also, it would be nice if you refrained from
> >> calling people names in the
> >> >> Main List.
> >> >>
> >> >> Surely yours must be a case of post-camping
> >> exaustion.
> >> >>
> >> >> Optime vale,
> >> >> Livia
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Salve,
> >> >> > Â
> >> >> > In ancient terms and perhaps up to the early
> >> 20th century, nations were
> >> >> > organized crime. The question of definition
> >> was a matter a matter on
> >> >> > size and who is defining. At one point, the
> >> papacy was mafia. Get an
> >> >> > educated historical perspective! I'm tired
> >> of imbeciles.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > --- On Sat, 7/4/09, Jesse Corradino
> >> <woden66@...> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > From: Jesse Corradino <woden66@...>
> >> >> > Subject: RE: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and ARABS
> >> >> > To: nova-roma@yahoogroups.com
> >> >> > Date: Saturday, July 4, 2009, 1:34 AM
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Salve,
> >> >> > Â
> >> >> > I wasn't being serious at all about
> >> organized crime having anything to
> >> >> > do with Greeks. I was trying to
> >> emphasize how the geographical
> >> >> > location of an occupying people is not
> >> correlated to the phenomenon of
> >> >> > organized crime.Â
> >> >> > Â
> >> >> > As for the meaning of Camorra, I was taught
> >> that it was a greek word,
> >> >> > but that was informally, so I'll freely admit
> >> to being wrong about
> >> >> > that.
> >> >> > Â
> >> >> > Best,
> >> >> > JC
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Â
> >> >> > > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
> >> >> > > From: livia.plauta@ gmail.com
> >> >> > > Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 21:03:17 +0000
> >> >> > > Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] MAFIA and
> >> ARABS
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > Salve Jesse,
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > according to my etymological dictionary
> >> (Devoto, the most famous one)
> >> >> > > "Camorra" comes from the mediterranean
> >> root *morra, meaning "flock",
> >> >> > > "gang", reiforced by "ca".
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > "'ndrangheta" seems to really come from
> >> the Greek "andragathia" , but
> >> >> > > it could be derived just from the
> >> toponym "Andragathia Regio", which
> >> >> > > designated an area between Calabria and
> >> Lucania.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > So, as you see only one of the words can
> >> be traced back to Greek
> >> >> > > roots, and even then, there's nothing
> >> strange about it, since Greek
> >> >> > > obviously left a huge inheritance in
> >> local dialects. This doesn't
> >> >> > > mean that the crimnal organization
> >> itself traces back to greek times,
> >> >> > > only that the word to indicate "virtus"
> >> in the local dialect was of
> >> >> > > Greek, and not Latin derivation.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > Optime vale,
> >> >> > > Livia
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > Are you serious in this post? You
> >> have nothing to back this up with
> >> >> > > > besides a thinly veiled racism
> >> against Arabs. Let me paraphrase:
> >> >> > > > Arabs arrived in Italy and
> >> transformed southern Italians into
> >> >> > > > primitive throw-backs. Why not the
> >> Greeks? Another "careful"
> >> >> > > > observation of geography shows that
> >> the areas affected by organized
> >> >> > > > crime in southern Italy were also
> >> colonized by the Greeks. Indeed,
> >> >> > > > Camorra and N'drghenta (spelling
> >> there) are actually Greek works!
> >> >> > > > So, at the very least, when the
> >> Arabs were manufacturing
> >> >> > > > cave-Italians, they were at least
> >> clever enough to cover their
> >> >> > > > presence by outwardly expressing
> >> themselves with the Greek
> >> >> > > > language. And, similar to your own
> >> argument, all of this is taking
> >> >> > > > place literally thousands of years
> >> before mainstream scholarship
> >> >> > > > claims anything related to
> >> organized crime in the modern sense was
> >> >> > > > happening!
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Windows Liveâ„¢ SkyDriveâ„¢: Get 25
> >> GB of free online storage. Get it
> >> >> > on your BlackBerry or iPhone.
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> ------------------------------------
> >> >>
> >> >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> _________________________________________________________________
> >> > Hotmail® has ever-growing storage! Don’t worry
> >> about storage limits.
> >> > http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage_062009
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>
> >>
> >> mailto:Nova-Roma-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/
>
> <*> Your email settings:
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>
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>
> <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
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>


Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that’s right for you.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68464 From: Jesse Corradino Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Modianus refusal to follow the rules cost us our server.
I think my favorite quote comes from Luke where he remonstrates his apostles for believing he is on Earth to unite mankind by telling them that he's really appeared to divide mankind between people who recognize his divinity and those who do not.  I thought that was wise and relevant to not only my personal life, but also to broader questions I had about existence. 
 

To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
From: tau.athanasios@...
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 16:26:40 -0400
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Modianus refusal to follow the rules cost us our server.



Salve:

I don't know of many people who could read the Gospels (I don't particularly care for the letters of Paul) and say, "Oh, this is worthless."  Within those writings are some good advice.  I particularly like "Don't throw pearls before swine."  Good advice.  You are correct, the NT is a brink in our culture; but it can also be a club in which culture tries to beat us down.  There is a correct use and an incorrect use.  It is knowing the difference.

Vale;

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus

On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 4:21 PM, Gaius Petronius Dexter <jfarnoud94@...> wrote:


C. Petronius K. Modiano s.p.d.,


> Of course I know where it is located, but that doesn't mean it isn't
> cliche! Just because something is in the New Testament doesn't make it
> "bad."

The Latin cliché with the same idea is "ex ungue leonem."

But why eliminate the clichés from the new testament with the excuse that we are deorum cultores? NT is also a brick of the wall of the culture.

Vale.
C. Petronius Dexter







Windows Liveâ„¢ SkyDriveâ„¢: Get 25 GB of free online storage. Get it on your BlackBerry or iPhone.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68465 From: Timothy or Stephen Gallagher Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Roman values and the word mercy
Salve Maior
 
"I did object, when the Senate had to decide whether to make Cato wait a year to return to Nova Roma, when our censor Paulinus asked the Senate in some biblical way to be merciful. That's not a Roman value, its not appropriate especially from the Censor who is the guardian of Roman values."

 
Here is the post you objected to and as I am it's author I can share it with anybody I like.
 
 
RE: [SenatusRomanus] Cato‏
From:  Gallagher (spqr753@...)
Sent: Fri 3/20/09 11:41 AM
To: SenatusRomanus (senatusromanus@yahoogroups.com)
Salvete
 
A citizen of long standing made a mistake and a knee jerk action to what was perceived, by him, as  a provocation. He now wants to continue as a citizen and the Censors want to return him to the Senate. It is that simple. We have already issued an edict returning him to the Senate if the exception is made or after 90 days it it does not. 
It would seem that mercy is not on some peoples agenda today.
 
The law allows it.  The Censors have respectively requested it. I hope none of the rest of you ever makes a similar mistake.
 
Valete
 
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

********************************************************************
I see no biblical reference in regard to my use of the word "mercy"

"Middle English, from Old French merci, from Medieval Latin mercēs, from Latin, reward.]"
 
So Latin is the source of the English word "mercy" but is not a Roman concept. LOL


BTW Maior what were all those thumbs doing in the Coliseum when they wanted the gladiator to live, asking that he be given ??? lunch? BTW Cato would only have had to wait 90 days if the Senate had not agreed to the Censors request not a year.
 
Vale
 
Paulinus









To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
From: rory12001@...
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 21:55:12 +0000
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Roman values [was Re: Modianus refusal to follow the...]





Salve Gualtere;
I think most cultores can live without reminders of Christian holidays or postings from the Christian bible, which has happened previously. And most really don't want to hear about Christian cults' infighting or definitions of heresy.

I did object, when the Senate had to decide whether to make Cato wait a year to return to Nova Roma, when our censor Paulinus asked the Senate in some biblical way to be merciful. That's not a Roman value, its not appropriate especially from the Censor who is the guardian of Roman values.

The Romans did excercise clementia; but that was for a brave enemy in battle. Quitting your office is very unRoman and not worthy of clementia.

So I didn't object to the phrase, as it isn't pushing a long discussion of christianity, christian theology, christian values. It isn't being used to justify a magisterial action.

We're Nova Romans and we can live by our values which are noble ones, and as we were discussing, inspired the Founding Fathers of the American Republic.
optime vale in pacem deorum
M. Hortensia Maior
>
> Salve,
>
> But I don't think it makes it particularly effective rhetorically, either, in our context here. So, you saying it seemed especially amusing to me and I couldn't help but point it out for folks who might not be as familiar with the New Testament as you or I. ;)
>
> Vale,
>
> Gualterus
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, David Kling <tau.athanasios@ > wrote:
> >
> > Of course I know where it is located, but that doesn't mean it isn't
> > cliche! Just because something is in the New Testament doesn't make it
> > "bad."
> >
> > Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus
> >
> > On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 1:50 PM, gualterus_graecus <waltms1@> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Salve,
> > >
> > > Hehe, I wasn't really fishing, but I found the quotation amusing. Had it
> > > come from some random person I wouldn't have paid much attention, but being
> > > that you're closely familiar with New Testament material I figured it would
> > > be something more than random cliche-grabbing. Was I mistaken? You had no
> > > idea it was in origin a Jesus quote?
> > >
> > > Vale,
> > >
> > >
> > > Gualterus
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>


Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68466 From: Timothy or Stephen Gallagher Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Roman values and the word mercy
Salve Maior
 
"I did object, when the Senate had to decide whether to make Cato wait a year to return to Nova Roma, when our censor Paulinus asked the Senate in some biblical way to be merciful. That's not a Roman value, its not appropriate especially from the Censor who is the guardian of Roman values."

 
Here is the post you objected to and as I am it's author I can share it with anybody I like.

RE: [SenatusRomanus] Cato‏
From:  Gallagher (spqr753@...)
Sent: Fri 3/20/09 11:41 AM
To: SenatusRomanus (senatusromanus@yahoogroups.com)
Salvete
 
A citizen of long standing made a mistake and a knee jerk action to what was perceived, by him, as  a provocation. He now wants to continue as a citizen and the Censors want to return him to the Senate. It is that simple. We have already issued an edict returning him to the Senate if the exception is made or after 90 days it it does not. 
It would seem that mercy is not on some peoples agenda today.
 
The law allows it.  The Censors have respectively requested it. I hope none of the rest of you ever makes a similar mistake.
 
Valete
 
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

********************************************************************
I see no biblical reference in regard to my use of the word "mercy"

"Middle English, from Old French merci, from Medieval Latin mercēs, from Latin, reward.]"
 
So Latin is the source of the English word "mercy" but is not a Roman concept. LOL


BTW Maior what were all those thumbs doing in the Coliseum when they wanted the gladiator to live, asking that he be given ??? lunch?  Cato would only have had to wait 90 days if the Senate had not agreed to the Censors request not a year.
 
Vale
 
Paulinus











Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68467 From: Timothy or Stephen Gallagher Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Mercy
Salve Maior
 
"I did object, when the Senate had to decide whether to make Cato wait a year to return to Nova Roma, when our censor Paulinus asked the Senate in some biblical way to be merciful. That's not a Roman value, its not appropriate especially from the Censor who is the guardian of Roman values."
 
Here is the post you objected to and as I am it's author I can share it with anybody I like.


RE: [SenatusRomanus] Cato‏
From:  Gallagher (spqr753@...)
Sent: Fri 3/20/09 11:41 AM
To: SenatusRomanus (senatusromanus@yahoogroups.com)
Salvete
 
A citizen of long standing made a mistake and a knee jerk action to what was perceived, by him, as  a provocation. He now wants to continue as a citizen and the Censors want to return him to the Senate. It is that simple. We have already issued an edict returning him to the Senate if the exception is made or after 90 days it it does not. 
It would seem that mercy is not on some peoples agenda today.
 
The law allows it.  The Censors have respectively requested it. I hope none of the rest of you ever makes a similar mistake.
 
Valete
 
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

********************************************************************
I see no biblical reference in regard to my use of the word "mercy"

"Middle English, from Old French merci, from Medieval Latin mercēs, from Latin, reward.]"
 
So Latin is the source of the English word "mercy" but is not a Roman concept. LOL


BTW Maior what were all those thumbs doing in the Coliseum when they wanted the gladiator to live, asking that he be given ??? lunch?  Cato would only have had to wait 90 days if the Senate had not agreed to the Censors request not a year.
 
Vale
 
Paulinus



Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68468 From: Maior Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Roman values and the word mercy
Salve Pauline;
as I told Poplicola, I deleted that post precisely as I decided it was contentious. I'm not going to argue with you over something I thought better of.. why you save my deleted posts & wish to create arguments is beyond me.

Now please excuse me, I wish to celebrate the feria

It is the Ludi Apollinares - let us praise Apollo!
vale
M. Hortensia Maior
>
>
> Salve Maior
>
> "I did object, when the Senate had to decide whether to make Cato wait a year to return to Nova Roma, when our censor Paulinus asked the Senate in some biblical way to be merciful. That's not a Roman value, its not appropriate especially from the Censor who is the guardian of Roman values."
>
>
>
> Here is the post you objected to and as I am it's author I can share it with anybody I like.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> RE: [SenatusRomanus] Cato‏
>
>
>
>
>
> From:
> Gallagher (spqr753@...)
>
> Sent:
> Fri 3/20/09 11:41 AM
>
> To:
> SenatusRomanus (senatusromanus@yahoogroups.com)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Salvete
>
> A citizen of long standing made a mistake and a knee jerk action to what was perceived, by him, as a provocation. He now wants to continue as a citizen and the Censors want to return him to the Senate. It is that simple. We have already issued an edict returning him to the Senate if the exception is made or after 90 days it it does not. It would seem that mercy is not on some peoples agenda today.
>
> The law allows it. The Censors have respectively requested it. I hope none of the rest of you ever makes a similar mistake.
>
> Valete
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>
>
> ********************************************************************
>
> I see no biblical reference in regard to my use of the word "mercy"
>
> "Middle English, from Old French merci, from Medieval Latin mercÄ"s, from Latin, reward.]"
>
> So Latin is the source of the English word "mercy" but is not a Roman concept. LOL
>
>
> BTW Maior what were all those thumbs doing in the Coliseum when they wanted the gladiator to live, asking that he be given ??? lunch? BTW Cato would only have had to wait 90 days if the Senate had not agreed to the Censors request not a year.
>
> Vale
>
> Paulinus
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> From: rory12001@...
> Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 21:55:12 +0000
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Roman values [was Re: Modianus refusal to follow the...]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Salve Gualtere;
> I think most cultores can live without reminders of Christian holidays or postings from the Christian bible, which has happened previously. And most really don't want to hear about Christian cults' infighting or definitions of heresy.
>
> I did object, when the Senate had to decide whether to make Cato wait a year to return to Nova Roma, when our censor Paulinus asked the Senate in some biblical way to be merciful. That's not a Roman value, its not appropriate especially from the Censor who is the guardian of Roman values.
>
> The Romans did excercise clementia; but that was for a brave enemy in battle. Quitting your office is very unRoman and not worthy of clementia.
>
> So I didn't object to the phrase, as it isn't pushing a long discussion of christianity, christian theology, christian values. It isn't being used to justify a magisterial action.
>
> We're Nova Romans and we can live by our values which are noble ones, and as we were discussing, inspired the Founding Fathers of the American Republic.
> optime vale in pacem deorum
> M. Hortensia Maior
> >
> > Salve,
> >
> > But I don't think it makes it particularly effective rhetorically, either, in our context here. So, you saying it seemed especially amusing to me and I couldn't help but point it out for folks who might not be as familiar with the New Testament as you or I. ;)
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Gualterus
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, David Kling <tau.athanasios@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Of course I know where it is located, but that doesn't mean it isn't
> > > cliche! Just because something is in the New Testament doesn't make it
> > > "bad."
> > >
> > > Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus
> > >
> > > On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 1:50 PM, gualterus_graecus <waltms1@> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Salve,
> > > >
> > > > Hehe, I wasn't really fishing, but I found the quotation amusing. Had it
> > > > come from some random person I wouldn't have paid much attention, but being
> > > > that you're closely familiar with New Testament material I figured it would
> > > > be something more than random cliche-grabbing. Was I mistaken? You had no
> > > > idea it was in origin a Jesus quote?
> > > >
> > > > Vale,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Gualterus
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68469 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Roman values and the word mercy
Cato Hortensiae Maiori Galerio Paulino omnibusque in foro SPD

Salvete.

First, let me point out again that my return as citizen and senator were both completely within the framework of our law. I stepped out of the Senate House voluntarily so that the matter could be decided by those given the authority to do so could without being swayed - either in my favor or against it - by my presence there.

Marca Hortensia, in a characteristic, ignorant, blanket denunciation of any possible emotion that can be linked in any way whatsoever to a Christian understanding, derides "mercy" in a way that the ancient Romans would be horrified to have attributed to them.

This is a clear demonstration of the idea that pretending to be "Roman" while exhibiting characteristics directly and clearly contradictory to the writings and spirit of actual ancient Romans must be discouraged.

Romanitas is not something that is proven worthy in simple opposition to something else; it is something that should act as a guide, not a means of derision; it should be a common point of reference, not a source of contention; it is a matter of inward conviction, not the result of an ability to quote and parrot others' ideas.

"I am more Roman than Citizen X because so-and-so says so" is a travesty of what we should be striving for.

Honor your God(s), live justly, think clearly, speak plainly. This is Romanitas, and dignitas, and gravitas.

Valete,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68470 From: David Kling Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Mercy
Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus Tiberio Galerio Paulino salutem dicit

Question... If Annia decided to come back to Nova Roma would you be
willing to show her mercy and re-appoint her to the senate and ask for
the same degree of clemency?

Vale:

Modianus



On 7/6/09, Timothy or Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Maior
>
> "I did object, when the Senate had to decide whether to make Cato wait a
> year to return to Nova Roma, when our censor Paulinus asked the Senate in
> some biblical way to be merciful. That's not a Roman value, its not
> appropriate especially from the Censor who is the guardian of Roman
> values."
>
> Here is the post you objected to and as I am it's author I can share it with
> anybody I like.
>
>
>
>
> RE: [SenatusRomanus] Cato‏
>
>
>
>
>
> From:
> Gallagher (spqr753@...)
>
> Sent:
> Fri 3/20/09 11:41 AM
>
> To:
> SenatusRomanus (senatusromanus@yahoogroups.com)
>
>
>
>
> Salvete
>
> A citizen of long standing made a mistake and a knee jerk action to what was
> perceived, by him, as a provocation. He now wants to continue as a citizen
> and the Censors want to return him to the Senate. It is that simple. We have
> already issued an edict returning him to the Senate if the exception is made
> or after 90 days it it does not. It would seem that mercy is not on some
> peoples agenda today.
>
> The law allows it. The Censors have respectively requested it. I hope none
> of the rest of you ever makes a similar mistake.
>
> Valete
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>
> ********************************************************************
> I see no biblical reference in regard to my use of the word "mercy"
>
> "Middle English, from Old French merci, from Medieval Latin mercēs, from
> Latin, reward.]"
>
> So Latin is the source of the English word "mercy" but is not a Roman
> concept. LOL
>
> BTW Maior what were all those thumbs doing in the Coliseum when they wanted
> the gladiator to live, asking that he be given ??? lunch? Cato would only
> have had to wait 90 days if the Senate had not agreed to the Censors request
> not a year.
>
> Vale
>
> Paulinus
>
>
>

--
Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68471 From: Maior Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Ludi Apollinares
Avete Quirites!
let us celebrate Apollo who inspires us who keeps us from harm. On this his ludi I make an offering of this Carmen from Horace. From the link below you will find many prayers to Apollo gathered in the NRwiki, maximas gratias to M. Moravius Piscinus and L. Livia Plauta for their pietas in posting them there for all cultores benefit!

Horace Carmina 1.31.1-4; 17-20

What may a poet ask in his prayers of You, Apollo? What can he say as he pours a libation of new wine to You? May Apollo grant that I enjoy good health and a sound mind, and, I pray, when I grow old, may He grant me a strife-free life, a clear mind and a lyre beside me with which to sing His praises.

http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Prayers_to_Apollo

Apollo, watch over our res publica, keep us from harm
and may you be propitious to Nova Roma and all Nova Romans!
M. Hortensia Maior

In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Equitius Cato" <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> Cato Maiori sal.
>
> Salve.
>
> Yes, and you posted it at 2.02pm Eastern US time, which was still 5 July in Rome, the day before the ludi Apollinares began.
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@> wrote:
> >
> > Salvete;
> > when I posted about the Ludi Apollinaires remember we are on Roman time, Central European time which is 7 hours ahead of U.S. Eastern Standard Time....It's time for the Ludi Apollinares, which aedile is in charge of the games? I've forgotten.
> > bene vale
> > M. Hortensia Maior
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68472 From: Publius Memmius Albucius Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Ludi Apollinares opened
Praetor Memmius omnibus s.d.

Here are opened our Ludi Apollinares!!

They will be chaired by the praetor maior, praetor urbanus.

For further general information, you may check the following general information useful pages:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludi_Apollinares

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/secondary/SMIGRA*/Ludi_Apollinares.html

The Ludi schedule will be displayed soon.

Have good Games everybody!

Valete,


P. Memmius Albucius
praetor





--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> Avete Quirites!
> let us celebrate Apollo who inspires us who keeps us from harm. On this his ludi I make an offering of this Carmen from Horace. From the link below you will find many prayers to Apollo gathered in the NRwiki, maximas gratias to M. Moravius Piscinus and L. Livia Plauta for their pietas in posting them there for all cultores benefit!
>
> Horace Carmina 1.31.1-4; 17-20
>
> What may a poet ask in his prayers of You, Apollo? What can he say as he pours a libation of new wine to You? May Apollo grant that I enjoy good health and a sound mind, and, I pray, when I grow old, may He grant me a strife-free life, a clear mind and a lyre beside me with which to sing His praises.
>
> http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Prayers_to_Apollo
>
> Apollo, watch over our res publica, keep us from harm
> and may you be propitious to Nova Roma and all Nova Romans!
> M. Hortensia Maior
>
> In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Equitius Cato" <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> >
> > Cato Maiori sal.
> >
> > Salve.
> >
> > Yes, and you posted it at 2.02pm Eastern US time, which was still 5 July in Rome, the day before the ludi Apollinares began.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Cato
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Salvete;
> > > when I posted about the Ludi Apollinaires remember we are on Roman time, Central European time which is 7 hours ahead of U.S. Eastern Standard Time....It's time for the Ludi Apollinares, which aedile is in charge of the games? I've forgotten.
> > > bene vale
> > > M. Hortensia Maior
> > >
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68473 From: marcushoratius Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Pridie Nonas Quinctilias: Fortuna Muliebris; Ludi Apollinares
M. Moravius Piscinus cultoribus Deorum et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit: Bonam habete Fortunam.

Hodie est die pristine Nonas Quinctilias; haec dies nefastus est: Ludi Apollini commituntur; Cancer medius occidit, calor.

AUC 262 / 487 BCE: Victory of the Roman Matrons over Coriolanus and the dedication of the Temple of Fortuna Muliebris

"Then the matrons went in a body to Veturia, the mother of Coriolanus, and Volumnia his wife. Whether this was in consequence of a decree of the senate, or simply the prompting of womanly fear, I am unable to ascertain, but at all events they succeeded in inducing the aged Veturia to go with Volumnia and her two little sons to the enemies' camp. As men were powerless to protect the City by their arms, the women sought to do so by their tears and prayers. On their arrival at the camp a message was sent to Coriolanus that a large body of women were present. He had remained unmoved by the majesty of the State in the persons of its ambassadors, and by the appeal made to his eyes and mind in the persons of its priests; he was still more obdurate to the tears of the women. Then one of his friends, who had recognised Veturia, standing between her daughter-in-law and her grandsons, and conspicuous amongst them all in the greatness of her grief, said to him, 'Unless my eyes deceive me, your mother and wife and children are here.' Coriolanus, almost like one demented, sprung from his seat to embrace his mother. She, changing her tone from entreaty to anger, said, 'Before I admit your embrace suffer me to know whether it is to an enemy or a son that I have come, whether it is as your prisoner or as your mother that I am in your camp. Has a long life and an unhappy old age brought me to this, that I have to see you an exile and from that an enemy? Had you the heart to ravage this land, which has borne and nourished you? However hostile and menacing the spirit in which you came, did not your anger subside as you entered its borders? Did you not say to yourself when your eye rested on Rome, 'Within those walls are my home, my household gods, my mother, my wife, my children?' Must it then be that, had I remained childless, no attack would have been made on Rome; had I never had a son, I should have ended my days a free woman in a free country? But there is nothing which I can suffer now that will not bring more disgrace to you than wretchedness to me; whatever unhappiness awaits me it will not be for long. Look to these, whom, if you persist in your present course, an untimely death awaits, or a long life of bondage.' When she ceased, his wife and children embraced him, and all the women wept and bewailed their own and their country's fate. At last his resolution gave way. He embraced his family and dismissed them, and moved his camp away from the City. After withdrawing his legions from the Roman territory, he is said to have fallen a victim to the resentment which his action aroused, but as to the time and circumstances of his death the traditions vary. I find in Fabius, who is by far the oldest authority, that he lived to be an old man; he relates a saying of his, which he often uttered in his later years, that it is not till a man is old that he feels the full misery of exile. The Roman husbands did not grudge their wives the glory they had won, so completely were their lives free from the spirit of detraction and envy. A temple was built and dedicated to Fortuna Muliebris, to serve as a memorial of their deed." ~ Titus Livius 2.40


AUC 541 / 212 BCE: Ludi Apollinares instituted.

During the Second Punic War, following Hannibal' stunning victories at Lake Transimene and Cannae, his capture of Tarentum, and then while campaigning in Campania, the Romans consulted a newly discovered prophecy.

"Subsequently the need of fresh religious observances was brought to [the Senate's] notice in consequence of the prophetic utterances of Marcius. This Marcius was a famous seer and his prophecies had come to light the previous year when by order of the senate an inspection was made of all books of a similar character. They first came into the hands of M. Aemilius who, as City praetor, was in charge of the business, and he at once handed them to the new praetor, Sulla. One of the two referred to events which had already happened before it saw the light, and the authority thus acquired by its fulfillment gained more credence for the other, which had yet to be fulfilled. In the first the disaster of Cannae was foretold in words to this effect:


"Thou who art sprung from Trojan blood, beware
The stream by Canna. Let not aliens born
Force thee to battle on the fatal plain
Of Diomed. But thou wilt give no heed
To this my rede until that all the plain
Be watered by thy blood, and mighty hosts
The stream shall bear into the boundless deep
From off the fruitful earth, and they who till
Its soil shall be for food to birds and beasts
And fishes. Such is Great Jove's word to me."

"Those who had fought there recognized the truth of the description-the plains of Argive Diomed and the river Canna and the very picture of the disaster. Then the second prophecy was read. It was not only more obscure than the first because the future is more uncertain than the past, but it was also more unintelligible owing to its phraseology. It ran as follows:


"If, Romans, ye would drive the foemen forth
Who come from far to mar your land, then see
That Games be held as each fourth year comes round
In honour of Apollo and your State
Shall bear its part and all your folk shall share
The holy work, each for himself and his.
Your praetor, who shall justice do for each
And all, shall have the charge. Then let there be
Ten chosen who shall offer sacrifice
In Grecian fashion. This if ye will do
Then shall ye evermore rejoice and all
Your State shall prosper; yea, the god shall bring
Your foes to nought, who now eat up your land."

"They spent one day interpreting this prophecy. The day following, the Senate passed a resolution that the Decemviri sacris faciundis should inspect the Sibylline Oracles with reference to the institution of Games to Apollo and the proper form of sacrifice. After they had made their investigations and reported to the Senate, a resolution was passed 'that Games be vowed and celebrated in honour of Apollo, and that when they were finished, 12,000 ases were to be given to the praetor for the expenses of the sacrifice and two victims of large size.' A second resolution was passed that 'the Decemviri sacris faciundis should sacrifice according to Greek ritual the following victims: to Apollo, an ox with gilded horns and two white she-goats with gilded horns, and to Latona a heifer with gilded horns.' When the praetor was about to celebrate the Games in the Circus Maximus he gave notice that during the Games the people should contribute a gift to Apollo, according to each man's convenience. Such is the origin of the Apollinarian Games, which were instituted for the cause of victory and not, as is generally thought, in the interests of the public health. The people wore garlands whilst witnessing them, the matrons offered up intercessions; feasting went on in the forecourts of the houses with open doors, and the day was observed with every kind of ceremonious rite." ~ Titus Livius 25.12


"Several portents had been announced, and the omens drawn from the sacrificial victims were mostly unfavourable. News came from Campania that two temples in Capua - those of Fortune and Mars - as well as several sepulchral monuments had been struck by lightning. To such an extent does a depraved superstition see the work of the Gods in the most insignificant trifles, that it was seriously reported that rats had gnawed the gold in the temple of Jupiter in Cumae. At Casinum a swarm of bees had settled in the forum; at Ostia a gate and part of the wall had been struck by lightning; at Caere a vulture had flown into the temple of Jupiter, and at Vulsinii the waters of the lake had run with blood. In consequence of these portents a day of special intercession was ordered. For several days full-grown victims had been sacrificed without giving any propitious indications, and it was long before the Pax Deorum, "peace of the Gods," could be secured. It was on the heads of the consuls that the direful mischance prognosticated by these portents fell, the State remained unharmed. The Games of Apollo had been celebrated for the first time in the consulship of Q. Fulvius and Appius Claudius under the superintendence of the City praetor, P. Cornelius Sulla. Subsequently all the City praetors celebrated them in turn, but they used to vow them for one year only, and there was no fixed day for their celebration. This year a serious epidemic attacked both the City and the country districts, but it resulted more frequently in protracted than in fatal illness. In consequence of this epidemic special intercessions were appointed at all the chapels throughout the City, and P. Licinius Varus, the City praetor, was instructed to propose a measure to the people providing that the Games of Apollo should always be celebrated on the same day. He was the first to celebrate them under this rule, and the day fixed for their celebration was July 5th, which was henceforth observed as the day." ~ Titus Livius 27.23

This first day of the Ludi Apollinares was celebrated with chariot races in the Circus Maximus.


Our thought for today is from Epictetus' Enchiridion 44

These reasonings have no logical connection: "I am richer than you; therefore I am superior." "I am more eloquent than you; therefore I am your superior." The true logical connection is rather this: "I am richer than you; therefore my possessions must exceed yours." "I am more eloquent than you; therefore my style must surpass yours." But you, after all, consist neither in property nor in style.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68474 From: marcushoratius Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Attacks on Censor Modianus
M. Moravius Horatianus M. Valerio Potito s. p. d.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Moore" <astrobear@...> wrote:
>
> M. Valerius Potitus Q. Servilio Prisco SPD.
>
<snipped>
>
>I'll share another Biblical phrase with those people
> who supported him: you reap what you sow.
>

Like many other "Biblical quotes" being bantered about, this one was not original to the author who put it in the mouth of Jesus. It is a quote from M. Tullius Cicero.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68475 From: Kveldulf@aol.com Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Digest Number 4631 - Rome, empire, deism and service abroad
<<7d. Re: definition of empire
    Posted by: "gualterus_graecus" waltms1@... gualterus_graecus
    Date: Sun Jul 5, 2009 6:44 pm ((PDT))

Salve,

I would not merely say that the roots of empire are in the Republican age, but 
that Republican Rome *was* an Empire from at least the late 4th century BCE 
onward. The idea that Rome stumbled into territorial expansion and was reluctant 
to do so is a classical thesis, going back to late Republican historiography, 
and one which I think substantially oversimplifies the situation.>>



While I would agree that the republic was expansionist, strictly speaking it was not
an empire. While "empire" is commonly used (sometimes self-refreentially, sometimes not) to
refer to an state with a vast territory, I'd reserve the term for true imperial government -
authoritarian, typically one person rule. In this sense, the Roman republic was not an empire.

The debate continues between those who view early Rome as an aggressive, expansionist state which
needed to constantly enlarge itself versus those who see Rome's territorial gains as a byproduct of
its history. The truth likely lies somewhere in between IMO.

The best take on it I have read recently is the idea of the ancient Mediterranean as a multipolar
anarchy - ie. a community of states with limited to no systems for resolving disputes except warfare.
In this model, in the absence of any other means for resolving disputes, the state with the most
effective military machine and the willingness to use it wins. In essence, the old cliche "when the only
tool you have is a hammer every problem starts looking like a nail".

Many of Rome's imperial possessions were inherited - Sicily, Spain and North Africa from Carthage, Greece
and eventually Syria and Egypt from the Seleucids, Anatolia from the Pontids. As Rome engaged these rivals,
she ended up in possession of them since with the old government gone something had to be put in its place.
Since a vaccuum in the ancient world quickly attracted eager neighbors, Rome could not easily leave her new
territories even if she had wanted to.


<<After the Gauls sacked Rome in 390 BCE, the city became particularly paranoid not only of Gaulish assault from the North, but of its vulnerability in general. It pursued a complex set of treaties and alliances to give itself a buffer, but this wasn't any normal alliance system--once you were in you didn't get out, and if you tried, you were brutally put down. This recalls a recent discussion about the Mafia. ;) Republican Rome also liked planting colonies in order to reinforce its control of various regions, whether they were militarily conquered or entered the fold through the alliance system.>>

The treaty system was a cheap way for Rome to manage her "near abroad" (buffer of neighbor
states). With client rulers the Romans often got the best of all worlds - an early warning
system of approaching enemies, ready manpower to draft in time of war, and a source of tribute
revenue.


With the colonia, besides acting as a means of controlling recently acquired lands they were also
a cheap way of rewarding soldiery. With good farmland often in short supply in Italy, granting veterans
land grants abroad (especially if the troops had been stationed there a number of years already) made
good political and social sense. Before Rome acquired substantial land outside Italy, the same held
true within Italy itself.
<<Prior to the catastrophe of 390, Rome didn't simply grow through peaceful expansion, but military action. Indeed, most of Rome's growth in size in the 5th and early 4th centuries was due to war. The conquest of Veii in 396 alone expanded the city's size by about 60%. This meant that the alliances Rome entered into were typically heavily uneven, in Rome's favor. You see this early on in the lopsided treaties with the Latin cities, and then later with everyone else.>>


As a poster spoofing corporate motivational posters on my battalion operations officer's door
puts it: "Rome did not build an empire by creating committees - they did it by killing everyone
who stood in their way." ; )


Regarding the Founding Fathers and deism, I notice that noone has mentioned the Jefferson Bible. Jefferson,
valuing the ethical teachings in the Bible but not having much regard for the supernatural aspects, created
his own edition in which all the supernatural stuff was excised leaving only what he regarded as the factual
episodes and the ethical teachings. It is available online; I have downloaded a copy from Project
Gutenberg but haven't had a chance to read it yet on this deployment.

Speaking of deployments, thanks to the folks who posted well wishes to servicemembers abroad. My unit has a
few months left on the clock in western Baghdad. I had the good fortune to go on a MWR (Moral Welfare Recreation)
trip to the ancient city of Ur on my last deployment. We have what's left of the ziggurat at Aqur Quf in our
sector this time, but it is not safe to visit (on a side note, it is one of many sites threatened by
encroaching modern development - in this case, irrigation water in the area wearing away the mud brick).
Some day I'd like to visit Ctesiphon, since I'm interested in Crassus' and Julian's campaigns in the East.
Ditto for visiting the remains of ancient Nineveh in the north. Sadly, I doubt modern Mesopotamia will be
in a state safe enough for tourism for at least ten, if not twenty or thirty years.


Andy
1LT, TC, USA
HHC/2-112 IN (FAST)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68476 From: Steve Moore Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Ludi Apollinares I

Salvete, omnes.

 

Over the next few days, I’ll be posting the Homeric Hymn to Apollo.

 

Valete,

Potitus

 

Homeric Hymn III, translated by Hugh G. Evelyn-White, and published in the Loeb Classical Library, 1926.

 

 

TO DELIAN APOLLO

 

I will remember and not be unmindful of Apollo who shoots afar.  As he goes through the house of Zeus, the gods tremble before him and all spring up from their seats when he draws near, as he bends his bright bow.  But Leto alone stays by the side of Zeus who delights in thunder; and then she unstrings his bow, and closes his quiver, and takes his archery from his strong shoulders in her hands and hangs them on a golden peg against a pillar of his father’s house.  Then she leads him to a seat and makes him sit: and the Father gives him nectar in a golden cup welcoming his dear son, while the other gods make him sit down there, and queenly Leto rejoices because she bare a mighty son and an archer.  Rejoice, blessed Leto, for you bare glorious children, the lord Apollo and Artemis who delights in arrows; her in Ortygia, and him in rocky Delos , as you rested against the great mass of the Cynthian hill hard by a palm-tree by the streams of Inopus.

 

How, then, shall I sing of you who in all ways are a worthy theme of song?  For everywhere, O Phoebus, the whole range of song is fallen to you, both over the mainland that rears heifers and over the isles.  All mountain-peaks and high headlands of lofty hills and rivers flowing out to the deep and beaches sloping seawards and havens of the sea are your delight.  Shall I sing how at the first Leto bare you to be the joy of men, as she rested against Mount Cynthus in that rocky isle, in sea-girt Delos—while on either hand a dark wave rolled on landwards driven by shrill winds—whence arising you rule over all mortal men?

 

Among those who are in Crete, and in the township of Athens, and in the isle of Aegina and Euboea, famous for ships, in Aegae and Eiresiae and Peparethus near the sea, in Thracian Athos and Pelion’s towering heights and Thracian Samos and the shady hills of Ida, in Scyros and Phocaea and the high hill of Autocane and fair-lying Imbros and smouldering Lemnos and rich Lesbos, home of Macar, the son of Aeolus, and Chios, brightest of all the isles that lie in the sea, and craggy Mimas and the heights of Corycus and gleaming Claros and the sheer hill of Aesagea and watered Samos and the steep heights of Mycale, in Miletus and Cos, the city of Meropian men, and steep Cnidos and windy Carpathos, in Naxos and Paros and rocky Rhenaea—so far roamed Leto in travail with the god who shoots afar, to see if any land would be willing to make a dwelling for her son.  But they greatly trembled and feared, and none, not even the richest of them, dared receive Phoebus, until queenly Leto set foot on Delos and uttered winged words and asked her:

 

“ Delos , if you would be willing to be the abode of my son Phoebus Apollo and make him a rich temple—; for no other will touch you, as you will find: and I think you will never be rich in oxen and sheep, nor bear vintage nor yet produce plants abundantly.  But if you have the temple of far-shooting Apollo, all men will bring you hecatombs and gather here, and incessant savour of rich sacrifice will always arise, and you will feed those who dwell in you from the hand of strangers; for truly your own soil is not rich.”

 

So spake Leto.  And Delos rejoiced and answered and said:  “Leto, most glorious daughter of great Coeus, joyfully would I receive your child the far-shooting lord; for it is all too true that I am ill-spoken of among men, whereas thus I should become very greatly honoured.  But this saying I fear, and I will not hide it from you, Leto.  They say that Apollo will be one that is very haughty and will greatly lord it among gods and men all over the fruitful earth.  Therefore, I greatly fear in heart and spirit that as soon as he sets the light of the sun, he will scorn this island—for truly I have but a hard, rocky soil—and overturn me and thrust me down with his feet in the depths of the sea; then will the great ocean wash deep above my head for ever, and he will go to another land such as will please him, there to make his temple and wooded groves.  So, many-footed creatures of the sea will make their lairs in me and black seals their dwellings undisturbed, because I lack people.  Yet if you will but dare to sware a great oath, goddess, that here first he will build a glorious temple to be an oracle for men, then let him afterwards make temples and wooded groves amongst all men; for surely he will be greatly renowned.”

 

So said Delos .  And Leto sware the great oath of the gods: “Now hear this, Earth and wide Heaven above, and dropping water of Styx (this is the strongest and most awful oath for the blessed gods), surely Phoebus shall have here his fragrant altar and precinct, and you he shall honour above all.”

 

Now when Leto had sworn and ended her oath, Delos was very glad at the birth of the far-shooting lord.  But Leto was racked nine days and nine nights with pangs beyond wont.  And there were with her all the chiefest of the goddesses, Dione and Rhea and Ichnaea and Themis and loud-moaning Amphitrite and the other deathless goddesses save white-armed Hera, who sat in the halls of cloud-gathering Zeus.  Only Eilithyia, goddess of sore travail, had not heard of Leto’s trouble, for she sat on the top of Olympus beneath golden clouds by white-armed Hera’s contriving, who kept her close through envy, because Leto with the lovely tresses was soon to bear a son faultless and strong.

 

But the goddesses sent out Iris from the well-set isle to bring Eilithyia, promising her a great necklace strung with golden threads, nine cubits long.  And they bade Iris call her aside from white-armed Hera, lest she might afterwards turn her from coming with her words.  When swift Iris, fleet of foot as the wind, had heard all this, she set to run; and quickly finishing all the distance she came to the home of the gods, sheer Olympus , and forthwith called Eilithyia out from the hall to the door and spoke winged words to her, telling her all as the goddesses who dwell on Olympus had bidden her.  So she moved the heart of Eilithyia in her dear breast; and they went their way, like shy wild-doves in their going.

 

And as soon as Eilithyia the goddess of sore travail set foot on Delos , the pains of birth seized Leto, and she longed to bring forth; so she cast her arms about a palm tree and kneeled on the soft meadow while the earth laughed for joy beneath.  Then the child leaped forth to the light, and all the goddesses washed you purely and cleanly with sweet water, and swathed you in a white garment of fine texture, new-woven, and fastened a golden band about you.

 

Now Leto did not give Apollo, bearer of the golden blade, her breast; but Themis duly poured nectar and ambrosia with her divine hands: and Leto was glad because she had borne a strong son and an archer.  But as soon as you had tasted that divine heavenly food, O Phoebus, you could no longer then be held by golden cords nor confined with bands, but all their ends were undone.  Forthwith Phoebus Apollo spoke out among the deathless goddesses:

 

“The lyre and the curved bow shall ever be dear to me, and I will declare to men the unfailing will of Zeus.”

 

So said Phoebus, the long-haired god who shoots afar and began to walk upon the wide-pathed earth; and all goddesses were amazed at him.  Then with gold all Delos was laden, beholding the child of Zeus and Leto, for joy because the god chose her above the islands and shore to make his dwelling in her: and she loved him yet more in her heart, and blossomed as does a mountain-top with woodland flowers.

 

And you, O lord Apollo, god of the silver bow, shooting afar, now walked on craggy Cynthus, and now kept wandering about the island and the people in them.  Many are your temples and wooded groves, and all peaks and towering bluffs of lofty mountains and rivers flowing to the sea are dear to you, Phoebus, yet in Delos do you most delight your heart; for there the long robed Ionians gather in your honour with their children and shy wives: mindful, they delight you with boxing and dancing and song, so often as they hold their gathering.  A man would say that they were deathless and unageing if he should then come upon the Ionians so met together.  For he would see the graces of them all, and would be pleased in heart gazing at the men and well-girded women with their swift ships and great wealth.  And there is this great wonder besides—and its renown shall never perish—the girls of Delos, hand-maidens of the Far-shooter; for when they have praised Apollo first, and also Leto and Artemis who delights in arrows, they sing a strain-telling of men and women of past days, and charm the tribes of men.  Also they can imitate the tongues of all men and their clattering speech: each would say that he himself were singing, so close to truth is their sweet song.

 

And now may Apollo be favourable and Artemis; and farewell all you maidens.  Remember me in after time whenever any one of men on earth, a stranger who has seen and suffered much, comes here and asks of you: “Whom think ye, girls, is the sweetest singer that comes here, and in whom do you most delight?”  Then answer, each and all, with one voice: “He is a blind man, and dwells in rocky Chios : his lays are evermore supreme.”  As for me, I will carry your renown as far as I roam over the earth to the well-placed this thing is true.  And I will never cease to praise far-shooting Apollo, god of the silver bow, whom rich-haired Leto bare.

 

Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68477 From: lathyrus77 Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Mercy
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, David Kling <tau.athanasios@...> wrote:
>
> Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus Tiberio Galerio Paulino salutem dicit
>
> Question... If Annia decided to come back to Nova Roma would you be
> willing to show her mercy and re-appoint her to the senate and ask for
> the same degree of clemency?
>
> Vale:
>
> Modianus
>


I doubt it. According to him, I "was a mistake". Even if I did come back I would not like to be in the senate. I actually enjoyed NR before being a senator, blissfully ignorant about the shenanigans that go on. I had a good time just being governor of my province, attending events, planning projects, etc.

NR would need a huge overhaul and a cleansing of the membership before I'd consider coming back. NR especially needs to remove its "cancer".

-Anna
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68478 From: Gaius Equitius Cato Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Attacks on Censor Modianus
Cato Moravio Piscino sal.

Salve.

Just for clarity's sake, it wasn't Jesus Who said it, it was St. Paul:

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." - Letter of St. Paul to the Galatians 6:7

Vale,

Cato



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "marcushoratius" <MHoratius@...> wrote:
>
> M. Moravius Horatianus M. Valerio Potito s. p. d.
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Moore" <astrobear@> wrote:
> >
> > M. Valerius Potitus Q. Servilio Prisco SPD.
> >
> <snipped>
> >
> >I'll share another Biblical phrase with those people
> > who supported him: you reap what you sow.
> >
>
> Like many other "Biblical quotes" being bantered about, this one was not original to the author who put it in the mouth of Jesus. It is a quote from M. Tullius Cicero.
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68479 From: L Julia Aquila Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Attacks on Censor Modianus
Salvéte,

Cicero's "As you sow, so shall you reap/lit sementem feceris, ita metes" is a great lesson that many of us know - we just forget to bring it forward to the forefront of our consciousness rather than giving into one's lower impulsive self and cause further unpleasantness.
Our Pontifex Maximas reminded us of yet another lesson –often similar words of wisdom have been uttered throughout history wherever the words of an advanced culture survive.
For example, sowing and reaping is a very important principle, a major principle for survival in antiquity. Pythagoras offers his words in this regard, look it up, it's better that way – you'll learn more;) The Egyptian Djehuty also has an interesting and positive phrase involving reaping and sowing – but I suggest you read the texts from the tombs, stelae and other monuments, Budge is a good start despite the criticism he has endured. Those of us who have studied antiquities, particularly philosophy, often enjoy such comparisons during our studies. An ancient scavenger hunt of a sort and an invaluable learning tool that will broadens one's knowledge of the world, other Philosophical and Religious traditions, while stepping out of the comfort zone venturing into those less familiar.
Consider those who may have written the Bible, including the scribes, and the origins of their educations.
It follows if the Rabbi known as Yeshua taught the Bible, it would be one of the "reap & sow's" from the OT.
Regardless of the source rather than arguing about it, it would serve us all well if we follow the wisdom of the words.

These are from the New Jerusalem Bible which follows the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts and the "Masoretic" Text for the OT:

"I speak from experience: those who plough iniquity and sow disaster, reap just that." Job 4:8 Old Testament (Very similar to the words of Pythagoras)

" Since they sow the wind, they will reap the whirlwind" Hosea 8:7 Old Testament

"But remember: anyone who sows sparsely will reap sparsely as well -- and anyone who sows generously will reap generously as well" 2 Corinthians 9:6 (The second part is very similar to Djehuty) widely thought to be written by Paul

"Don't delude yourself: God is not to be fooled; whatever someone sows, that is what he will reap.
If his sowing is in the field of self-indulgence, then his harvest from it will be corruption; if his sowing is in the Spirit, then his harvest from the Spirit will be eternal life.
And let us never slacken in doing good; for if we do not give up, we shall have our harvest in due time." Galatians 6:7-9 thought to be written by Paul

Bene valéte in pacem deorum,

Julia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68480 From: Timothy or Stephen Gallagher Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Roman values and the word mercy
Salve  Maior
 
First you get to say that by using a perfectly good English word in communications with the
Senate I am un-roman  and it usage is unworthy of a Roman Censor. Now you say I don't get to respond?  I am glad you get to set the rules,  I really am. BTW  I answered you post after I read it.  In the future if you do not want me to response to your posts please leave me and/or my name out of them.
 
Vale
 
Paulinus
 

To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
From: rory12001@...
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 06:28:19 +0000
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Roman values and the word mercy



Salve Pauline;
as I told Poplicola, I deleted that post precisely as I decided it was contentious. I'm not going to argue with you over something I thought better of.. why you save my deleted posts & wish to create arguments is beyond me.

Now please excuse me, I wish to celebrate the feria

It is the Ludi Apollinares - let us praise Apollo!
vale
M. Hortensia Maior
>
>
> Salve Maior
>
> "I did object, when the Senate had to decide whether to make Cato wait a year to return to Nova Roma, when our censor Paulinus asked the Senate in some biblical way to be merciful. That's not a Roman value, its not appropriate especially from the Censor who is the guardian of Roman values."
>
>
>
> Here is the post you objected to and as I am it's author I can share it with anybody I like.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> RE: [SenatusRomanus] Cato�
>
>
>
>
>
> From:
> Gallagher (spqr753@... )
>
> Sent:
> Fri 3/20/09 11:41 AM
>
> To:
> SenatusRomanus (senatusromanus@ yahoogroups. com)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Salvete
>
> A citizen of long standing made a mistake and a knee jerk action to what was perceived, by him, as a provocation. He now wants to continue as a citizen and the Censors want to return him to the Senate. It is that simple. We have already issued an edict returning him to the Senate if the exception is made or after 90 days it it does not. It would seem that mercy is not on some peoples agenda today.
>
> The law allows it. The Censors have respectively requested it. I hope none of the rest of you ever makes a similar mistake.
>
> Valete
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>
>
> ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* **
>
> I see no biblical reference in regard to my use of the word "mercy"
>
> "Middle English, from Old French merci, from Medieval Latin mercÄ"s, from Latin, reward.]"
>
> So Latin is the source of the English word "mercy" but is not a Roman concept. LOL
>
>
> BTW Maior what were all those thumbs doing in the Coliseum when they wanted the gladiator to live, asking that he be given ??? lunch? BTW Cato would only have had to wait 90 days if the Senate had not agreed to the Censors request not a year.
>
> Vale
>
> Paulinus
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
> From: rory12001@.. .
> Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 21:55:12 +0000
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Roman values [was Re: Modianus refusal to follow the...]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Salve Gualtere;
> I think most cultores can live without reminders of Christian holidays or postings from the Christian bible, which has happened previously. And most really don't want to hear about Christian cults' infighting or definitions of heresy.
>
> I did object, when the Senate had to decide whether to make Cato wait a year to return to Nova Roma, when our censor Paulinus asked the Senate in some biblical way to be merciful. That's not a Roman value, its not appropriate especially from the Censor who is the guardian of Roman values.
>
> The Romans did excercise clementia; but that was for a brave enemy in battle. Quitting your office is very unRoman and not worthy of clementia.
>
> So I didn't object to the phrase, as it isn't pushing a long discussion of christianity, christian theology, christian values. It isn't being used to justify a magisterial action.
>
> We're Nova Romans and we can live by our values which are noble ones, and as we were discussing, inspired the Founding Fathers of the American Republic.
> optime vale in pacem deorum
> M. Hortensia Maior
> >
> > Salve,
> >
> > But I don't think it makes it particularly effective rhetorically, either, in our context here. So, you saying it seemed especially amusing to me and I couldn't help but point it out for folks who might not be as familiar with the New Testament as you or I. ;)
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Gualterus
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, David Kling <tau.athanasios@ > wrote:
> > >
> > > Of course I know where it is located, but that doesn't mean it isn't
> > > cliche! Just because something is in the New Testament doesn't make it
> > > "bad."
> > >
> > > Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus
> > >
> > > On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 1:50 PM, gualterus_graecus <waltms1@> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Salve,
> > > >
> > > > Hehe, I wasn't really fishing, but I found the quotation amusing. Had it
> > > > come from some random person I wouldn't have paid much attention, but being
> > > > that you're closely familiar with New Testament material I figured it would
> > > > be something more than random cliche-grabbing. Was I mistaken? You had no
> > > > idea it was in origin a Jesus quote?
> > > >
> > > > Vale,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Gualterus
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>


Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68481 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Mercy
Are you willing to associate yourself with a known participate of the neo-nazi group stormfront? She has made over 800 posts there. Matt found her out.

Vale,

Sulla

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, David Kling <tau.athanasios@...> wrote:
>
> Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus Tiberio Galerio Paulino salutem dicit
>
> Question... If Annia decided to come back to Nova Roma would you be
> willing to show her mercy and re-appoint her to the senate and ask for
> the same degree of clemency?
>
> Vale:
>
> Modianus
>
>
>
> On 7/6/09, Timothy or Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@...> wrote:
> >
> > Salve Maior
> >
> > "I did object, when the Senate had to decide whether to make Cato wait a
> > year to return to Nova Roma, when our censor Paulinus asked the Senate in
> > some biblical way to be merciful. That's not a Roman value, its not
> > appropriate especially from the Censor who is the guardian of Roman
> > values."
> >
> > Here is the post you objected to and as I am it's author I can share it with
> > anybody I like.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > RE: [SenatusRomanus] Cato‏
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From:
> > Gallagher (spqr753@...)
> >
> > Sent:
> > Fri 3/20/09 11:41 AM
> >
> > To:
> > SenatusRomanus (senatusromanus@yahoogroups.com)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Salvete
> >
> > A citizen of long standing made a mistake and a knee jerk action to what was
> > perceived, by him, as a provocation. He now wants to continue as a citizen
> > and the Censors want to return him to the Senate. It is that simple. We have
> > already issued an edict returning him to the Senate if the exception is made
> > or after 90 days it it does not. It would seem that mercy is not on some
> > peoples agenda today.
> >
> > The law allows it. The Censors have respectively requested it. I hope none
> > of the rest of you ever makes a similar mistake.
> >
> > Valete
> >
> > Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> >
> > ********************************************************************
> > I see no biblical reference in regard to my use of the word "mercy"
> >
> > "Middle English, from Old French merci, from Medieval Latin mercÄ"s, from
> > Latin, reward.]"
> >
> > So Latin is the source of the English word "mercy" but is not a Roman
> > concept. LOL
> >
> > BTW Maior what were all those thumbs doing in the Coliseum when they wanted
> > the gladiator to live, asking that he be given ??? lunch? Cato would only
> > have had to wait 90 days if the Senate had not agreed to the Censors request
> > not a year.
> >
> > Vale
> >
> > Paulinus
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68482 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Modianus refusal to follow the rules cost us our server.
You kinda bring it onto yourself, don't ya think?

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, David Kling <tau.athanasios@...> wrote:
>
> Considering that QFM recently attacked me, and now you. Sensitive? No.
> Tired of the bullshit? Yeah, kinda. Used to it? Yeah, pretty much.
>
> Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus
>
> On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 2:30 PM, gualterus_graecus <waltms1@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > lol, you're very sensitive, aren't you?
> >
> > -Gualterus
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68483 From: Timothy or Stephen Gallagher Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Mercy
Salve Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus
 
I would have some objections to her returning to Nova Roma as a citizen as she MAYBE a neo-Nazi or at least seems to keeps their company. If she or others can make the case that this is not so then I could be persuaded to have her back.
 
I would not however agree to return her to the Senate. She has, in my opinion, proven to be to immature for the Senate.
 
Vale
 
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus 
 

To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
From: tau.athanasios@...
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 03:20:41 -0400
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Mercy



Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus Tiberio Galerio Paulino salutem dicit

Question... If Annia decided to come back to Nova Roma would you be
willing to show her mercy and re-appoint her to the senate and ask for
the same degree of clemency?

Vale:

Modianus

On 7/6/09, Timothy or Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@msn. com> wrote:
>
> Salve Maior
>
> "I did object, when the Senate had to decide whether to make Cato wait a
> year to return to Nova Roma, when our censor Paulinus asked the Senate in
> some biblical way to be merciful. That's not a Roman value, its not
> appropriate especially from the Censor who is the guardian of Roman
> values."
>
> Here is the post you objected to and as I am it's author I can share it with
> anybody I like.
>
>
>
>
> RE: [SenatusRomanus] Cato‏
>
>
>
>
>
> From:
> Gallagher (spqr753@msn. com)
>
> Sent:
> Fri 3/20/09 11:41 AM
>
> To:
> SenatusRomanus (senatusromanus@ yahoogroups. com)
>
>
>
>
> Salvete
>
> A citizen of long standing made a mistake and a knee jerk action to what was
> perceived, by him, as a provocation. He now wants to continue as a citizen
> and the Censors want to return him to the Senate. It is that simple. We have
> already issued an edict returning him to the Senate if the exception is made
> or after 90 days it it does not. It would seem that mercy is not on some
> peoples agenda today.
>
> The law allows it. The Censors have respectively requested it. I hope none
> of the rest of you ever makes a similar mistake.
>
> Valete
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>
> ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* **
> I see no biblical reference in regard to my use of the word "mercy"
>
> "Middle English, from Old French merci, from Medieval Latin mercēs, from
> Latin, reward.]"
>
> So Latin is the source of the English word "mercy" but is not a Roman
> concept. LOL
>
> BTW Maior what were all those thumbs doing in the Coliseum when they wanted
> the gladiator to live, asking that he be given ??? lunch? Cato would only
> have had to wait 90 days if the Senate had not agreed to the Censors request
> not a year.
>
> Vale
>
> Paulinus
>
>
>

--
Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google. com

Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68484 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Mercy
I hope that while you are trying to bring back the stromfront poster back to NR that you are actually conducting important business like the sockpuppet investigation of the consul. Since that has a greater need to get resolved.

Vale,

Sulla

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, David Kling <tau.athanasios@...> wrote:
>
> Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus Tiberio Galerio Paulino salutem dicit
>
> Question... If Annia decided to come back to Nova Roma would you be
> willing to show her mercy and re-appoint her to the senate and ask for
> the same degree of clemency?
>
> Vale:
>
> Modianus
>
>
>
> On 7/6/09, Timothy or Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@...> wrote:
> >
> > Salve Maior
> >
> > "I did object, when the Senate had to decide whether to make Cato wait a
> > year to return to Nova Roma, when our censor Paulinus asked the Senate in
> > some biblical way to be merciful. That's not a Roman value, its not
> > appropriate especially from the Censor who is the guardian of Roman
> > values."
> >
> > Here is the post you objected to and as I am it's author I can share it with
> > anybody I like.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > RE: [SenatusRomanus] Cato‏
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From:
> > Gallagher (spqr753@...)
> >
> > Sent:
> > Fri 3/20/09 11:41 AM
> >
> > To:
> > SenatusRomanus (senatusromanus@yahoogroups.com)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Salvete
> >
> > A citizen of long standing made a mistake and a knee jerk action to what was
> > perceived, by him, as a provocation. He now wants to continue as a citizen
> > and the Censors want to return him to the Senate. It is that simple. We have
> > already issued an edict returning him to the Senate if the exception is made
> > or after 90 days it it does not. It would seem that mercy is not on some
> > peoples agenda today.
> >
> > The law allows it. The Censors have respectively requested it. I hope none
> > of the rest of you ever makes a similar mistake.
> >
> > Valete
> >
> > Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> >
> > ********************************************************************
> > I see no biblical reference in regard to my use of the word "mercy"
> >
> > "Middle English, from Old French merci, from Medieval Latin mercÄ"s, from
> > Latin, reward.]"
> >
> > So Latin is the source of the English word "mercy" but is not a Roman
> > concept. LOL
> >
> > BTW Maior what were all those thumbs doing in the Coliseum when they wanted
> > the gladiator to live, asking that he be given ??? lunch? Cato would only
> > have had to wait 90 days if the Senate had not agreed to the Censors request
> > not a year.
> >
> > Vale
> >
> > Paulinus
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68485 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: definition of empire
In a message dated 7/5/2009 5:57:05 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, shoshanahathaway@... writes:
Rome tried to pretend for a long time that it wasn't an Empire, just a
Republic, saddled with territory it didn't want ... and in many ways, it
didn't want that territory, but felt responsible for Nations into whose
business She had involved Herself. The U.S. found itself in somewhat the
same situation just after the II World War, occupying both Japan and Germany
(with 3 other Nations). Despite the fact that we no longer rule those
countries (thank all the Gods), we *still* maintain a defensive military
presence there (with the accord of the host Nations), and probably always
will.
 
Rome felt that to keep incursions on her borders from happening she had to either make them allies of the Republic or exterminate them.
 
This likely came about from bad experiences they had with the Volsci, Eturians, and Gauls.
Even the occupation of Sardinia was to eliminate enemy galley resting spots to keep raids from happening on the Italian coast.
 
Q. Fabius Maximus 
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68486 From: Maior Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Roman values and the word mercy
Salve Pauline;
since I deleted that contentious post of mine, I won't bring the example up, others published it. And I have no desire to argue, especially during the Ludi Apollinares.

Let me explain republican clemency, clementia. Romans showed clementia, clemency for their enemies, especially brave ones, and from patrons to clients. Superiors to inferiors,

Here is a great quote from Livy:
"An enemy in arms one is bound to meet with ruthless hostility; towards the conquered the greatest minds show the greatest clemency"
Livy 33.12.7


Here are some great examples, 'exempla'in latin:

Clementia of M. Marcellus crying as he conquered Syracuse

Humantias of Africanus towards a beautiful Numidian boy too young to know that he should not fight against Rome

Humanitas of M. Antonius in burying M. Brutus

p.183 "Clemency & Cruelty in the Roman World" Melissa Barden Dowling

as Nova Romans we honour the gods and look to the exempla of Ancient Rome to emulate their behavior and values!
Apollo te amet
Marca Hortensia Maior
>
>
> First you get to say that by using a perfectly good English word in communications with the
>
> Senate I am un-roman and it usage is unworthy of a Roman Censor. Now you say I don't get to respond? I am glad you get to set the rules, I really am. BTW I answered you post after I read it. In the future if you do not want me to response to your posts please leave me and/or my name out of them.
>
>
>
> Vale
>
>
>
> Paulinus
>
>
>
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> From: rory12001@...
> Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 06:28:19 +0000
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Roman values and the word mercy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Salve Pauline;
> as I told Poplicola, I deleted that post precisely as I decided it was contentious. I'm not going to argue with you over something I thought better of.. why you save my deleted posts & wish to create arguments is beyond me.
>
> Now please excuse me, I wish to celebrate the feria
>
> It is the Ludi Apollinares - let us praise Apollo!
> vale
> M. Hortensia Maior
> >
> >
> > Salve Maior
> >
> > "I did object, when the Senate had to decide whether to make Cato wait a year to return to Nova Roma, when our censor Paulinus asked the Senate in some biblical way to be merciful. That's not a Roman value, its not appropriate especially from the Censor who is the guardian of Roman values."
> >
> >
> >
> > Here is the post you objected to and as I am it's author I can share it with anybody I like.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > RE: [SenatusRomanus] Cato�
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From:
> > Gallagher (spqr753@)
> >
> > Sent:
> > Fri 3/20/09 11:41 AM
> >
> > To:
> > SenatusRomanus (senatusromanus@yahoogroups.com)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Salvete
> >
> > A citizen of long standing made a mistake and a knee jerk action to what was perceived, by him, as a provocation. He now wants to continue as a citizen and the Censors want to return him to the Senate. It is that simple. We have already issued an edict returning him to the Senate if the exception is made or after 90 days it it does not. It would seem that mercy is not on some peoples agenda today.
> >
> > The law allows it. The Censors have respectively requested it. I hope none of the rest of you ever makes a similar mistake.
> >
> > Valete
> >
> > Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> >
> >
> > ********************************************************************
> >
> > I see no biblical reference in regard to my use of the word "mercy"
> >
> > "Middle English, from Old French merci, from Medieval Latin mercÄ"s, from Latin, reward.]"
> >
> > So Latin is the source of the English word "mercy" but is not a Roman concept. LOL
> >
> >
> > BTW Maior what were all those thumbs doing in the Coliseum when they wanted the gladiator to live, asking that he be given ??? lunch? BTW Cato would only have had to wait 90 days if the Senate had not agreed to the Censors request not a year.
> >
> > Vale
> >
> > Paulinus
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > From: rory12001@
> > Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 21:55:12 +0000
> > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Roman values [was Re: Modianus refusal to follow the...]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Salve Gualtere;
> > I think most cultores can live without reminders of Christian holidays or postings from the Christian bible, which has happened previously. And most really don't want to hear about Christian cults' infighting or definitions of heresy.
> >
> > I did object, when the Senate had to decide whether to make Cato wait a year to return to Nova Roma, when our censor Paulinus asked the Senate in some biblical way to be merciful. That's not a Roman value, its not appropriate especially from the Censor who is the guardian of Roman values.
> >
> > The Romans did excercise clementia; but that was for a brave enemy in battle. Quitting your office is very unRoman and not worthy of clementia.
> >
> > So I didn't object to the phrase, as it isn't pushing a long discussion of christianity, christian theology, christian values. It isn't being used to justify a magisterial action.
> >
> > We're Nova Romans and we can live by our values which are noble ones, and as we were discussing, inspired the Founding Fathers of the American Republic.
> > optime vale in pacem deorum
> > M. Hortensia Maior
> > >
> > > Salve,
> > >
> > > But I don't think it makes it particularly effective rhetorically, either, in our context here. So, you saying it seemed especially amusing to me and I couldn't help but point it out for folks who might not be as familiar with the New Testament as you or I. ;)
> > >
> > > Vale,
> > >
> > > Gualterus
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, David Kling <tau.athanasios@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Of course I know where it is located, but that doesn't mean it isn't
> > > > cliche! Just because something is in the New Testament doesn't make it
> > > > "bad."
> > > >
> > > > Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 1:50 PM, gualterus_graecus <waltms1@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Salve,
> > > > >
> > > > > Hehe, I wasn't really fishing, but I found the quotation amusing. Had it
> > > > > come from some random person I wouldn't have paid much attention, but being
> > > > > that you're closely familiar with New Testament material I figured it would
> > > > > be something more than random cliche-grabbing. Was I mistaken? You had no
> > > > > idea it was in origin a Jesus quote?
> > > > >
> > > > > Vale,
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Gualterus
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68487 From: L Julia Aquila Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Ludi Apollinares
Salvéte Quirites, amícae et amící,

Grant me, O Phoebus, new fonts of inspiration and weave fortune's garland as a crown upon my head.
Statius Achilleis 1.9-10

O noble Apollo, I beseech you, hear my song!
Entwine golden tendrils of your hair in mine, deliver your song, so sacred, ever close to my ear, bring to me good health, good fortune in future endeavors. Hold close to your powerful breast the virtuous children of this respublica, with each heartbeat instilling a strong brotherhood towards progress and success while driving away treachery, disgrace and deceit. From my lips your name shall flow, upon my altar you shall be remembered and in my heart you shall always dwell.


Cúráte ut valéatis atque di vos incolumes custodiant

L. Iulia Aquila
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68488 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Digest Number 4631 - Rome, empire, deism and service abroad
Salve,

Well, the English definition of "empire" requires it neither to be authoritarian nor ruled by one person (although, it can be both). Ultimately, though, the modern term "empire" as it is used for a great variety of geographically large political entities in the past is not very useful. The particular political and military relationships inside entities such as the British "Empire", Russian "Empire" and Roman "Empire" were quite different. Nonetheless, because "empire" is such a broad term, the fact that sometimes people shrink from describing certain political entities by it says more than those who use it liberally.

It seems to me that some people avoid calling Republican Rome an "empire" for the same reasons they might want to avoid calling the United States an "empire", because they feel it somehow inappropriate and antithetical to describe those political structures by a term associated with less desirable political entities. The primary reason I went forward and asserted Republican Rome was an "empire" was to point out that despite the complicated geopolitics that went into its acquisition of various territories, it was typically, in the end, 1) direct conquest or 2) alliances that were more Mafia-style protectionism than leagues of equals. Moreover, I emphasized that military conquest was the main vehicle for the growth of the city even very early on.

I don't disagree with your comments about the use of clients and colonization as buffers and rewards for military service (and the lack of Italian land is what led to the Gracchan crises and the eventual dissolution of the Republican system), but I would like to emphasize that the nature of Roman expansionism was just as brutal and conquest-laden as so many other political entities we have no problem calling "empires". Simply because Republican Rome was an oligarchy (not a democracy by a long shot) and not a monarchy doesn't disqualify modern use of the term "empire". Allow me to offer two examples. In US history, there is a definite period that no historian has trouble labeling "imperial" to some extent, which is that following the Spanish-American War and the acquisition of Cuba, the Philippines, etc. The other example is that of the Dutch Republic, whose overseas holdings were certainly comparable and no different in quality and nature from other empires: it is typically called the "Dutch Empire".

Vale,

Gualterus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Kveldulf@... wrote:
>
>
>
> <<7d. Re: definition of empire
> Posted by: "gualterus_graecus" waltms1@... gualterus_graecus
> Date: Sun Jul 5, 2009 6:44 pm ((PDT))
>
> Salve,
>
> I would not merely say that the roots of empire are in the Republican age, but
> that Republican Rome *was* an Empire from at least the late 4th century BCE
> onward. The idea that Rome stumbled into territorial expansion and was reluctant
> to do so is a classical thesis, going back to late Republican historiography,
> and one which I think substantially oversimplifies the situation.>>
>
>
>
> While I would agree that the republic was expansionist, strictly speaking it was not
> an empire. While "empire" is commonly used (sometimes self-refreentially, sometimes not) to
> refer to an state with a vast territory, I'd reserve the term for true imperial government -
> authoritarian, typically one person rule. In this sense, the Roman republic was not an empire.
>
> The debate continues between those who view early Rome as an aggressive, expansionist state which
> needed to constantly enlarge itself versus those who see Rome's territorial gains as a byproduct of
> its history. The truth likely lies somewhere in between IMO.
>
> The best take on it I have read recently is the idea of the ancient Mediterranean as a multipolar
> anarchy - ie. a community of states with limited to no systems for resolving disputes except warfare.
> In this model, in the absence of any other means for resolving disputes, the state with the most
> effective military machine and the willingness to use it wins. In essence, the old cliche "when the only
> tool you have is a hammer every problem starts looking like a nail".
>
> Many of Rome's imperial possessions were inherited - Sicily, Spain and North Africa from Carthage, Greece
> and eventually Syria and Egypt from the Seleucids, Anatolia from the Pontids. As Rome engaged these rivals,
> she ended up in possession of them since with the old government gone something had to be put in its place.
> Since a vaccuum in the ancient world quickly attracted eager neighbors, Rome could not easily leave her new
> territories even if she had wanted to.
>
>
>
> <<After the Gauls sacked Rome in 390 BCE, the city became particularly paranoid
> not only of Gaulish assault from the North, but of its vulnerability in general.
> It pursued a complex set of treaties and alliances to give itself a buffer, but
> this wasn't any normal alliance system--once you were in you didn't get out, and
> if you tried, you were brutally put down. This recalls a recent discussion about
> the Mafia. ;) Republican Rome also liked planting colonies in order to reinforce
> its control of various regions, whether they were militarily conquered or
> entered the fold through the alliance system.>>
>
> The treaty system was a cheap way for Rome to manage her "near abroad" (buffer of neighbor
> states). With client rulers the Romans often got the best of all worlds - an early warning
> system of approaching enemies, ready manpower to draft in time of war, and a source of tribute
> revenue.
>
>
> With the colonia, besides acting as a means of controlling recently acquired lands they were also
> a cheap way of rewarding soldiery. With good farmland often in short supply in Italy, granting veterans
> land grants abroad (especially if the troops had been stationed there a number of years already) made
> good political and social sense. Before Rome acquired substantial land outside Italy, the same held
> true within Italy itself.
>
>
> <<Prior to the catastrophe of 390, Rome didn't simply grow through peaceful
> expansion, but military action. Indeed, most of Rome's growth in size in the 5th
> and early 4th centuries was due to war. The conquest of Veii in 396 alone
> expanded the city's size by about 60%. This meant that the alliances Rome
> entered into were typically heavily uneven, in Rome's favor. You see this early
> on in the lopsided treaties with the Latin cities, and then later with everyone
> else.>>
>
>
> As a poster spoofing corporate motivational posters on my battalion operations officer's door
> puts it: "Rome did not build an empire by creating committees - they did it by killing everyone
> who stood in their way." ; )
>
>
> Regarding the Founding Fathers and deism, I notice that noone has mentioned the Jefferson Bible. Jefferson,
> valuing the ethical teachings in the Bible but not having much regard for the supernatural aspects, created
> his own edition in which all the supernatural stuff was excised leaving only what he regarded as the factual
> episodes and the ethical teachings. It is available online; I have downloaded a copy from Project
> Gutenberg but haven't had a chance to read it yet on this deployment.
>
> Speaking of deployments, thanks to the folks who posted well wishes to servicemembers abroad. My unit has a
> few months left on the clock in western Baghdad. I had the good fortune to go on a MWR (Moral Welfare Recreation)
> trip to the ancient city of Ur on my last deployment. We have what's left of the ziggurat at Aqur Quf in our
> sector this time, but it is not safe to visit (on a side note, it is one of many sites threatened by
> encroaching modern development - in this case, irrigation water in the area wearing away the mud brick).
> Some day I'd like to visit Ctesiphon, since I'm interested in Crassus' and Julian's campaigns in the East.
> Ditto for visiting the remains of ancient Nineveh in the north. Sadly, I doubt modern Mesopotamia will be
> in a state safe enough for tourism for at least ten, if not twenty or thirty years.
>
>
> Andy
> 1LT, TC, USA
> HHC/2-112 IN (FAST)
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68489 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Fwd: [moderatorcentral] Planned Outage: Wednesday, July 8
Forwarded FYI

----- Forwarded message from y_groups_team@... -----
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 19:14:16 -0000
From: y_groups_team <y_groups_team@...>
Reply-To: moderatorcentral-owner@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [moderatorcentral] Planned Outage: Wednesday, July 8
To: moderatorcentral@yahoogroups.com

On Wednesday, July 8th we will be performing scheduled maintenance on
the Yahoo! Groups databases. During this time, some of you may not be
able to access your groups, and group mail will be delayed.

Maintenance should take roughly two hours, and will begin at 1pm PT
(8pm UTC- to determine what time the outage will take place in your
neighborhood, please visit this link:
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/converter.html).

Once the maintenance has been completed, we will update the Yahoo!
Groups blog (http://www.ygroupsblog.com).

Thanks for your patience!

Melissa Daniels
Yahoo! Community Manager

CN-EQVIT-MARINVS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68490 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Hymns to Apollo from the Papyri
Salvete,

Below are two hymns reconstructed by Heitsch and published originally in the back of the second volume of Papyri Graecae Magicae, Die Griechischen Zauberpapyri (Stuttgart: Teubner, 1974). The English text is that of Betz, although, modified by me here and there where I found it necessary to come closer to the original Greek. For the original and reconstructed texts in Greek, see my papyrus wiki: http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Sodalitas_Graeciae_(Nova_Roma)/Religion_from_the_Papyri/PGM_Hymns

Hymn 9

O Phoibos, helper through your oracles, come joyous,
Leto's son, who works afar, averter, hither come, hither.
Foretell, give prophecies amid night's hour.
If e'er with vict'ry-loving laurel branch here
from your holy peak you often voiced words of good omen,
so may you now speed your way to me with truthful oracles.

Hymn 13

[Laurel,] Apollo's holy plant [of presage,
which] Phoebus [tasted once] and wreathed with branches
[freshly-cut] his [holy] head, adorned with tresses long
[and golden]. In his hand he shook [a scepter]
on the [peaks of Mount Parnassis], lofty and with many vales
[and gave to all] the gods [responses] and to mortals prohecied.
[For in the throws of grievous love], it was Apollo who himself
[gave you, a nymph], dread virgin, power [to utter presages.
Come quickly hither to me beseeching you] in holy measures
[and] in my hands holding [a laurel leaf].
Send me [divine responses] and a holy prophetic sign.
In lucid [words], O priestess, [reveal all things]:
both [when this will occur] and how it will be done.
[Give me a presage,] so that with it [I may perform a test] on [anything. Subduer, hither come! Lo you,] mankind's Subduer, mankind's [force!]

Valete,

Gualterus Graecus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68491 From: A. Sempronius Regulus Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Digest Number 4631 - Rome, empire, deism and service abroad
Salve,
I thought the Dutch had an empire so they would, at least, have some land above sea-level. ;-)
 
Vale,
A. Sempronius Regulus

--- On Mon, 7/6/09, gualterus_graecus <waltms1@...> wrote:

From: gualterus_graecus <waltms1@...>
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Digest Number 4631 - Rome, empire, deism and service abroad
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, July 6, 2009, 7:02 PM

Salve,

Well, the English definition of "empire" requires it neither to be authoritarian nor ruled by one person (although, it can be both). Ultimately, though, the modern term "empire" as it is used for a great variety of geographically large political entities in the past is not very useful. The particular political and military relationships inside entities such as the British "Empire", Russian "Empire" and Roman "Empire" were quite different. Nonetheless, because "empire" is such a broad term, the fact that sometimes people shrink from describing certain political entities by it says more than those who use it liberally.

It seems to me that some people avoid calling Republican Rome an "empire" for the same reasons they might want to avoid calling the United States an "empire", because they feel it somehow inappropriate and antithetical to describe those political structures by a term associated with less desirable political entities. The primary reason I went forward and asserted Republican Rome was an "empire" was to point out that despite the complicated geopolitics that went into its acquisition of various territories, it was typically, in the end, 1) direct conquest or 2) alliances that were more Mafia-style protectionism than leagues of equals. Moreover, I emphasized that military conquest was the main vehicle for the growth of the city even very early on.

I don't disagree with your comments about the use of clients and colonization as buffers and rewards for military service (and the lack of Italian land is what led to the Gracchan crises and the eventual dissolution of the Republican system), but I would like to emphasize that the nature of Roman expansionism was just as brutal and conquest-laden as so many other political entities we have no problem calling "empires". Simply because Republican Rome was an oligarchy (not a democracy by a long shot) and not a monarchy doesn't disqualify modern use of the term "empire". Allow me to offer two examples. In US history, there is a definite period that no historian has trouble labeling "imperial" to some extent, which is that following the Spanish-American War and the acquisition of Cuba, the Philippines, etc. The other example is that of the Dutch Republic, whose overseas holdings were certainly comparable and no different in quality and nature from other empires: it is typically called the "Dutch Empire".

Vale,

Gualterus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, Kveldulf@... wrote:
>
>
>
> <<7d. Re: definition of empire
> Posted by: "gualterus_graecus" waltms1@... gualterus_graecus
> Date: Sun Jul 5, 2009 6:44 pm ((PDT))
>
> Salve,
>
> I would not merely say that the roots of empire are in the Republican age, but
> that Republican Rome *was* an Empire from at least the late 4th century BCE
> onward. The idea that Rome stumbled into territorial expansion and was reluctant
> to do so is a classical thesis, going back to late Republican historiography,
> and one which I think substantially oversimplifies the situation.>>
>
>
>
> While I would agree that the republic was expansionist, strictly speaking it was not
> an empire. While "empire" is commonly used (sometimes self-refreentially, sometimes not) to
> refer to an state with a vast territory, I'd reserve the term for true imperial government -
> authoritarian, typically one person rule. In this sense, the Roman republic was not an empire.
>
> The debate continues between those who view early Rome as an aggressive, expansionist state which
> needed to constantly enlarge itself versus those who see Rome's territorial gains as a byproduct of
> its history. The truth likely lies somewhere in between IMO.
>
> The best take on it I have read recently is the idea of the ancient Mediterranean as a multipolar
> anarchy - ie. a community of states with limited to no systems for resolving disputes except warfare.
> In this model, in the absence of any other means for resolving disputes, the state with the most
> effective military machine and the willingness to use it wins. In essence, the old cliche "when the only
> tool you have is a hammer every problem starts looking like a nail".
>
> Many of Rome's imperial possessions were inherited - Sicily, Spain and North Africa from Carthage, Greece
> and eventually Syria and Egypt from the Seleucids, Anatolia from the Pontids. As Rome engaged these rivals,
> she ended up in possession of them since with the old government gone something had to be put in its place.
> Since a vaccuum in the ancient world quickly attracted eager neighbors, Rome could not easily leave her new
> territories even if she had wanted to.
>
>
>
> <<After the Gauls sacked Rome in 390 BCE, the city became particularly paranoid
> not only of Gaulish assault from the North, but of its vulnerability in general.
> It pursued a complex set of treaties and alliances to give itself a buffer, but
> this wasn't any normal alliance system--once you were in you didn't get out, and
> if you tried, you were brutally put down. This recalls a recent discussion about
> the Mafia. ;) Republican Rome also liked planting colonies in order to reinforce
> its control of various regions, whether they were militarily conquered or
> entered the fold through the alliance system.>>
>
> The treaty system was a cheap way for Rome to manage her "near abroad" (buffer of neighbor
> states). With client rulers the Romans often got the best of all worlds - an early warning
> system of approaching enemies, ready manpower to draft in time of war, and a source of tribute
> revenue.
>
>
> With the colonia, besides acting as a means of controlling recently acquired lands they were also
> a cheap way of rewarding soldiery. With good farmland often in short supply in Italy, granting veterans
> land grants abroad (especially if the troops had been stationed there a number of years already) made
> good political and social sense. Before Rome acquired substantial land outside Italy, the same held
> true within Italy itself.
>
>
> <<Prior to the catastrophe of 390, Rome didn't simply grow through peaceful
> expansion, but military action. Indeed, most of Rome's growth in size in the 5th
> and early 4th centuries was due to war. The conquest of Veii in 396 alone
> expanded the city's size by about 60%. This meant that the alliances Rome
> entered into were typically heavily uneven, in Rome's favor. You see this early
> on in the lopsided treaties with the Latin cities, and then later with everyone
> else.>>
>
>
> As a poster spoofing corporate motivational posters on my battalion operations officer's door
> puts it: "Rome did not build an empire by creating committees - they did it by killing everyone
> who stood in their way." ; )
>
>
> Regarding the Founding Fathers and deism, I notice that noone has mentioned the Jefferson Bible. Jefferson,
> valuing the ethical teachings in the Bible but not having much regard for the supernatural aspects, created
> his own edition in which all the supernatural stuff was excised leaving only what he regarded as the factual
> episodes and the ethical teachings. It is available online; I have downloaded a copy from Project
> Gutenberg but haven't had a chance to read it yet on this deployment.
>
> Speaking of deployments, thanks to the folks who posted well wishes to servicemembers abroad. My unit has a
> few months left on the clock in western Baghdad. I had the good fortune to go on a MWR (Moral Welfare Recreation)
> trip to the ancient city of Ur on my last deployment. We have what's left of the ziggurat at Aqur Quf in our
> sector this time, but it is not safe to visit (on a side note, it is one of many sites threatened by
> encroaching modern development - in this case, irrigation water in the area wearing away the mud brick).
> Some day I'd like to visit Ctesiphon, since I'm interested in Crassus' and Julian's campaigns in the East.
> Ditto for visiting the remains of ancient Nineveh in the north. Sadly, I doubt modern Mesopotamia will be
> in a state safe enough for tourism for at least ten, if not twenty or thirty years.
>
>
> Andy
> 1LT, TC, USA
> HHC/2-112 IN (FAST)
>


Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68492 From: L Julia Aquila Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Independence Day - A ROMAN TOPIC
Salve Magistra amica!

I do not know what is going on with the link, i got the same result but when I googled it I got right to the enclosure - and it was the same address. I still got 404 when I put the new link right in the browser. I am not going to even try to figure it out, so here it is, Jefferson's suggestions to his nephew:

E N C L O S U R E
Antient history. Herodot. Thucyd. Xenoph. hellen. Xenoph. Anab.
Q. Curt. Just.
Livy. Polybius. Sallust. Caesar. Suetonius. Tacitus. Aurel. Victor. Herodian.
Gibbons' decline of the Roman empire. Milot histoire ancienne.
Mod. hist. English. Tacit. Germ. & Agricole — Hume to the end of H.VI. then Habington's
E.IV. — St. Thomas Moor's E.5. & R.3. — Ld Bacon's H.7. — Ld. Herbert of Cherbury's
H.8. — K. Edward's journal (in Burnet) Bp. of Hereford's E.6. & Mary. — Cambden's Eliz.
— Wilson's Jac.I. — Ludlow (omit Clarendon as too seducing for a young republican. By
and by read him) Burnet's Charles 2. Jac.2. Wm. & Mary & Anne — Ld Orrery down to
George 1. & 2. — Burke's G.3. — Robertson's hist. of Scotland.
American. Robertson's America. — Douglass's N. America — Hutcheson's Massachusets.
Smith's N. York. — Smith's N. Jersey — Franklin's review of Pennsylvania. — Smith's,
Stith's, Keith's, & Beverley's hist. of Virginia
Foreign. Mallet's North'n. Antiquities by Percy — Puffendorf's hist'y. of Europe & Martiniere's of
Asia, Africa & America — Milot histoire Moderne. Voltaire histoire universelle — Milot hist.
de France — Mariana's hist. of Spain in Span. — Robertson's Charles V. — Watson's Phil.
II. & III. — Grotii Belgica. Mosheim's Ecclesiastical history.
Poetry Homer — Milton — Ossian — Sophocles — Aeschylus — Eurip. — Metastasio —
Shakesp. — Theocritus — Anacreon [ . . . ]
Mathematics Bezout & whatever else Mr. Madison recommends.
Astronomy Delalande &'c. as Mr. Madison shall recommend.
Natural Philosophy. Musschenbroeck.
Botany. Linnaei Philosophia Botanica — Genera plantarum — Species plantarum — Gronorii
flora [ ... ]
Chemistry. Fourcroy.
Agriculture. Home's principles of Agriculture — Tull &c.
Anatomy. Cheselden.
Morality. The Socratic dialogues — Cicero's Philosophies — Kaim's principles of Nat'l.
religion — Helvetius de l'esprit et de l'homme. Locke's Essay. — Lucretius — Traite de
Morale & du bonheur
Religion. Locke's Conduct of the mind. — Middleton's
works — Bolingbroke's philosoph. works — Hume's essays — Voltaire's works — Beattie
Politics & Law. Whatever Mr. Wythe pleases, who will be so good as to correct also all the
preceding articles which are only intended as a groundwork to be finished by his pencil.

> > ATS: Xenophanes, maybe? Xenophene would be a feminine name...but
> > Xenophane seems more likely even then.
*laugh* rush = typo
Jefferson occasionally referred to Cicero as "Tully" so I suppose he felt a kinship.

Talk soon~

Vale,

Julia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68493 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Independence Day - A ROMAN TOPIC
> >
> > ATS: I got a 404 error from this...


http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/jefferson_enclosure.html
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68494 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Independence Day - A ROMAN TOPIC
Salve,

It's "Xenophon" (omega-nu).

Vale,

Gualterus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Tullia Scholastica" <fororom@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > A. Tullia Scholastica L. Juliae Aquilae quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque

> > If anyone has the time read the exchange of letters between Thomas Jefferson
> > and John Q Adams, while they often make reference to Pythagoras, Plato,
> > Socrates and Xenophene,
> >
> > ATS: Xenophanes, maybe? Xenophene would be a feminine name...but
> > Xenophane seems more likely even then.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68495 From: L Julia Aquila Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Independence Day - A ROMAN TOPIC
Ah foiled by a "period", Thanks Agricola;)

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "M. Lucretius Agricola" <marcus.lucretius@...> wrote:
>
> > >
> > > ATS: I got a 404 error from this...
>
>
> http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/jefferson_enclosure.html
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68496 From: deciusiunius Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Mercy
Salve Annia,

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "lathyrus77" <lathyrus77@...> wrote:
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, David Kling <tau.athanasios@> wrote:
> >
> > Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus Tiberio Galerio Paulino salutem dicit
> >
> > Question... If Annia decided to come back to Nova Roma would you be
> > willing to show her mercy and re-appoint her to the senate and ask for
> > the same degree of clemency?
> >
> > Vale:
> >
> > Modianus
> >
>
>
> I doubt it. According to him, I "was a mistake". Even if I did come back I would not like to be in the senate. I actually enjoyed NR before being a senator, blissfully ignorant about the shenanigans that go on. I had a good time just being governor of my province, attending events, planning projects, etc.
>
> NR would need a huge overhaul and a cleansing of the membership before I'd consider coming back. NR especially needs to remove its "cancer".

It wouldn't make the slightest difference. You perform a purge of all the "troublemakers" on both sides of the divide and they would be replaced by others. I've seen it happen. The problem is integral to the system itself on many levels.

Pointing the blame at individuals feels good but it's far too simplistic a solution.


Vale,

Palladius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68497 From: lathyrus77 Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Mercy
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "deciusiunius" <bcatfd@...> wrote:
>

> It wouldn't make the slightest difference. You perform a purge of all the "troublemakers" on both sides of the divide and they would be replaced by others. I've seen it happen. The problem is integral to the system itself on many levels.
>
> Pointing the blame at individuals feels good but it's far too simplistic a solution.
>
>
> Vale,
>
> Palladius
>


That's true. Which is why I'd like an overhaul of the system. I liked what gaulterus had planned as outlined in the paper he sent me. His ideas seem like an improvement over the current situation. Have you read his proposals?

-Anna
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68498 From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Posting rules in this Forum, 7/6/2009, 11:45 pm
Reminder from:   Nova-Roma Yahoo! Group
 
Title:   Posting rules in this Forum
 
Date:   Monday July 6, 2009
Time:   11:45 pm - 12:00 am
Repeats:   This event repeats every week until Friday January 1, 2010.
Location:   Rome
Notes:   Praetores omnibus s.d.

Please keep on mind the posting rules defined in the current Edictum de sermone Apr. 24, 2762 GEM-PMA, that you find in the Files section of this Forum, at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/files/Edicta%20de%20sermone/

Valete omnes,


Praetores G.E.Marinus and P.M.Albucius
 
Copyright © 2009  Yahoo! Inc. All Rights Reserved | Terms of Service | Privacy Policy
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68499 From: lathyrus77 Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Mercy
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Woolwine" <l_cornelius_sulla@...> wrote:
>
> Are you willing to associate yourself with a known participate of the neo-nazi group stormfront? She has made over 800 posts there. Matt found her out.
>

First of all, Stormfront is a white supremacist/separatist organization, not a neo-nazi group, although neo-nazis do join them.

Second, I'm not a participant, but I have discussed issues with those people in the past.

Third, I'm not a neo-nazi or any other kind of racist.

Fourth, you know all of this because it has been discussed at length, and even Matt (who "found me out" apparently) doesn't think I'm a neo-nazi either.


Here is something sulla can't comprehend. Talking to people(even people who are not liked) does NOT automatically make you one of them. I've talked to atheists, christians, pagans, republicans, calvinists, etc(accumulating 10 times more posts than on stormfront) and yet I remain a libertarian heathen. I do not believe in socialism, national socialism, national socialism for the german workers, nor do I believe germans are better than the rest of us.

Sulla just likes to pretend I'm a neo-nazi(by saying I'm a member of stormfront, calling me "Ilse", etc) because he's an idiot with no life. He doesn't even have a gf, probably because he's too fat and disgusting. It makes him feel better to bully others through the safety of the internet.


-Anna
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68500 From: L Julia Aquila Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCEMENT of CONVENTUS NOVAE ROMAE in North America!
C O N V E N T U S N O V A E R O M A E

The first annual Conventus Novae Romae in North America will be held in America
Austrorientalis on:

SEXTILIS • VII • VIII • IX MMDCCLXII a.u.c.
(7th, 8th & 9th August 2009)

Located in:
NASHVILLE, TENNESSEE, USA

All citizens are cordially invited to the First Annual North American Coventus
Novae Romae for a weekend of exploration, education and camaraderie Roman
–style! Come meet fellow citizens and find yourself immersed in classical
culture, conversation and games sharing the unique experience of what it is to
be Novi Romani.

RSVP now, don't delay and reserve your place!

The Conventus convenes Friday evening at the notable Blackstone Restaurant and
Brewery for a leisurely meet and greet. This is in walking distance to the
suggested hotels and the first destination after check in.
Saturday morning citizens will enjoy a Docent Tour of the Parthenon that
includes an exact replica of the Greek original as it was in antiquity complete
with a 42 ft. tall statue of Pallas Athena clad in 23.75 caret Italian gold leaf
who supports in her hand a 6 ft. 4 in. statue of the Greek Goddess of Victory,
Nike.
Saturday evening citizens will enjoy an old world repast at the Dinner
Conference graced by a presentation by a notable citizen in the style of the
Ancient Mystery Schools. Later that evening the games will continue!
Sunday, following lunch at a French Bistro, citizens will enjoy a private tour
of the Belmont Mansion, a treasure of classical influences in art, culture and
architecture.
The weekend will offer many activities Roman style including games, the words of
the ancients in Latin and a special ceremony, a Religio Romana Ritual right in
the heart of the Athens of the South.

To RSVP join the registration list at NR_Nashville_Conventus on Yahoo:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NR_Nashville_Conventus/

When you join you will receive a Registration form, which can be copied and
posted on the registration list when you RSVP.
You may also send the Registration form in privatum to
l_ivlia_aqvilaATyahooDOTcom but you still should post your RSVP on the
registration list in the unlikely event it gets lost in email.
There is also a $35.00 US Coventus fee due by July 23rd which serves as a final
confirmation of your RSVP, more information and assistance regarding payment in
the yahoo registration list. The fee will be paid through Nova Roma pay pal,
with a notation for US conventus, unless other arrangements are made.

The Agenda, Hotel Reservations, Travel and other info can be found on the Nova
Roma wiki:
http://novaroma.org/nr/I_Conventus_Novae_Romae_(NA)

V I V A T N O V A R O M A!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68501 From: lathyrus77 Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Mercy
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Timothy or Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@...> wrote:
>
>
> Salve Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus
>
>
>
> I would have some objections to her returning to Nova Roma as a citizen as she MAYBE a neo-Nazi or at least seems to keeps their >company.

How do I "seem" to be a neo-nazi? How do I keep their company?


If she or others can make the case that this is not so then I could be persuaded to have her back.
>
>

No, you got it the wrong way around. I would have to be the one persuaded to come back. Nova Roma is a horrible organization, which is why I left it. You would have to fix the majority of the problems before I would even consider it.



>
> I would not however agree to return her to the Senate. She has, in my opinion, proven to be to immature for the Senate.
>

LOL!

Maybe you'd prefer it if I threatened a lawsuit because that is WAY more mature, right? What a load of bull. While I was in the senate I saw the most petty things, no progress, idiotic behaviour, and silly games played by silly people. My 4 yr old is more mature.


You couldn't pay me to be in the senate.

-Anna
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68502 From: A. Sempronius Regulus Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Nonfunctional linkRe: [Nova-Roma] Re: ANNOUNCEMENT of CONVENTUS NOV
And, for a second time, the agenda does not come up after you click on the link.

--- On Mon, 7/6/09, L Julia Aquila <dis_pensible@...> wrote:

From: L Julia Aquila <dis_pensible@...>
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: ANNOUNCEMENT of CONVENTUS NOVAE ROMAE in North America!
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, July 6, 2009, 11:42 PM

C O N V E N T U S N O V A E R O M A E

The first annual Conventus Novae Romae in North America will be held in America
Austrorientalis on:

SEXTILIS • VII • VIII • IX MMDCCLXII a.u.c.
(7th, 8th & 9th August 2009)

Located in:
NASHVILLE, TENNESSEE, USA

All citizens are cordially invited to the First Annual North American Coventus
Novae Romae for a weekend of exploration, education and camaraderie Roman
–style! Come meet fellow citizens and find yourself immersed in classical
culture, conversation and games sharing the unique experience of what it is to
be Novi Romani.

RSVP now, don't delay and reserve your place!

The Conventus convenes Friday evening at the notable Blackstone Restaurant and
Brewery for a leisurely meet and greet. This is in walking distance to the
suggested hotels and the first destination after check in.
Saturday morning citizens will enjoy a Docent Tour of the Parthenon that
includes an exact replica of the Greek original as it was in antiquity complete
with a 42 ft. tall statue of Pallas Athena clad in 23.75 caret Italian gold leaf
who supports in her hand a 6 ft. 4 in. statue of the Greek Goddess of Victory,
Nike.
Saturday evening citizens will enjoy an old world repast at the Dinner
Conference graced by a presentation by a notable citizen in the style of the
Ancient Mystery Schools. Later that evening the games will continue!
Sunday, following lunch at a French Bistro, citizens will enjoy a private tour
of the Belmont Mansion, a treasure of classical influences in art, culture and
architecture.
The weekend will offer many activities Roman style including games, the words of
the ancients in Latin and a special ceremony, a Religio Romana Ritual right in
the heart of the Athens of the South.

To RSVP join the registration list at NR_Nashville_ Conventus on Yahoo:
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/NR_ Nashville_ Conventus/

When you join you will receive a Registration form, which can be copied and
posted on the registration list when you RSVP.
You may also send the Registration form in privatum to
l_ivlia_aqvilaATyah ooDOTcom but you still should post your RSVP on the
registration list in the unlikely event it gets lost in email.
There is also a $35.00 US Coventus fee due by July 23rd which serves as a final
confirmation of your RSVP, more information and assistance regarding payment in
the yahoo registration list. The fee will be paid through Nova Roma pay pal,
with a notation for US conventus, unless other arrangements are made.

The Agenda, Hotel Reservations, Travel and other info can be found on the Nova
Roma wiki:
http://novaroma. org/nr/I_ Conventus_ Novae_Romae_(NA)

V I V A T N O V A R O M A!


Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68503 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Mercy
I am getting pretty damned tired of reading excrement like this on the NR mainlist.  I personally don't care if one of my colleagues was ever involved in the porn industry or that another is involved with neo-fascist organizations or that another fellow Senator is in seminary or that another member of the Sacred Colleges lived with two women.  As long as it doesn't come into NR, I don't f****** care.

I wouldn't want Anna back in the Senate either, but I do not recall her ever spreading any neo-fascist propaganda (from the Latin "to propagate").  I am not real happy that Lucius Cornelius is currently in the Senate and I am sick unto physical purging that nearly everytime Anna post he writes the same old crap..

I wish all you would just quit chewing the same old cud on the ML and do something productive.  Ercule!

Aureliane 


-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Woolwine <l_cornelius_sulla@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, Jul 6, 2009 1:02 pm
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Mercy



Are you willing to associate yourself with a known participate of the neo-nazi group stormfront? She has made over 800 posts there. Matt f ound her out.

Vale,

Sulla

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, David Kling <tau.athanasios@ ...> wrote:
>
> Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus Tiberio Galerio Paulino salutem dicit
>
> Question... If Annia decided to come back to Nova Roma would you be
> willing to show her mercy and re-appoint her to the senate and ask for
> the same degree of clemency?
>
> Vale:
>
> Modianus
>
>
>
> On 7/6/09, Timothy or Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@... > wrote:
> >
> > Salve Maior
> >
> > "I did object, when the Senate had to decide whether to make Cato wait a
> > year to return to Nova Roma, when our censor Paulinus asked the Senate in
> > some biblical way to be merciful. That's not a Roman value, its not
> > appropriate especially from the Censor who is the guardian of Roman
> > values."
> >
> > Here is the post you objected to and as I am it's author I can share it with
> > anybody I like.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > RE: [SenatusRomanus] Cato‏
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From:
> > Gallagher (spqr753@... )
> >
> > Sent:
> > Fri 3/20/09 11:41 AM
> >
> > To:
> > SenatusRomanu s (senatusromanus@ yahoogroups. com)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Salvete
> >
> > A citizen of long standing made a mistake and a knee jerk action to what was
> > perceived, by him, as a provocation. He now wants to continue as a citizen
> > and the Censors want to return him to the Senate. It is that simple. We have
> > already issued an edict returning him to the Senate if the exception is made
> > or after 90 days it it does not. It would seem that mercy is not on some
> > peoples agenda today.
> >
> > The law allows it. The Censors have respectively requested it. I hope none
> > of the rest of you ever makes a similar mistake.
> >
> > Valete
> >
> > Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> >
> > ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* **
> > I see no biblical reference in regard to my use of the word "mercy"
> >
> > "Middle English, from Old French merci, from Medieval Latin mercÄ"s, from
> > Latin, reward.]"
> >
> > So Latin is the source of the English word "mercy" but is not a Roman
> > concept. LOL
> >
> > BTW Maior what were all those thumbs doing in the Coliseum when they wanted
> > the gladiator to live, asking that he be given ??? lunch? Cato would only
> > have had to wait 90 days if the Senate had not agreed to the Censors request
> > not a year.
> >
> > Vale
> >
> > Paulinus
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google. com
>

Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68504 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Mercy
That wasn't me :) You must be thinking of Caesar.

-Gualterus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "lathyrus77" <lathyrus77@...> wrote:
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "deciusiunius" <bcatfd@> wrote:
> >
>
> > It wouldn't make the slightest difference. You perform a purge of all the "troublemakers" on both sides of the divide and they would be replaced by others. I've seen it happen. The problem is integral to the system itself on many levels.
> >
> > Pointing the blame at individuals feels good but it's far too simplistic a solution.
> >
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Palladius
> >
>
>
> That's true. Which is why I'd like an overhaul of the system. I liked what gaulterus had planned as outlined in the paper he sent me. His ideas seem like an improvement over the current situation. Have you read his proposals?
>
> -Anna
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68505 From: L Julia Aquila Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Nonfunctional linkRe: [Nova-Roma] Re: ANNOUNCEMENT of CONVENTUS NOV
Salve,

Semprone, unfortunately yahoo disables the last part so you have to copy it and paste it in the browser.
If you have anymore problems it will be my pleasure to email you the link.
We might not have the same problem when we go to the new server. I am not sure though because I have little knowledge in this respect.
Hope I have helped;)

Vale,
Julia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Sempronius Regulus" <asempronius.regulus@...> wrote:
>
> And, for a second time, the agenda does not come up after you click on the link.
>
> --- On Mon, 7/6/09, L Julia Aquila <dis_pensible@...> wrote:
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68506 From: deciusiunius Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Mercy
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "lathyrus77" <lathyrus77@...> wrote:
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "deciusiunius" <bcatfd@> wrote:
> >
>
> > It wouldn't make the slightest difference. You perform a purge of all the "troublemakers" on both sides of the divide and they would be replaced by others. I've seen it happen. The problem is integral to the system itself on many levels.
> >
> > Pointing the blame at individuals feels good but it's far too simplistic a solution.
> >
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Palladius
> >
>
>
> That's true. Which is why I'd like an overhaul of the system. I >liked what gaulterus had planned as outlined in the paper he sent me. >His ideas seem like an improvement over the current situation. Have >you read his proposals?

You mean Caesar, I think. Parts of it but far from all of it. It's quite a detailed work and finding the time to sit down and absorb it has been difficult.

Palladius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68507 From: Nabarz Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Stellar Magic
Dear Friends and Nova Roma group members,

Salve,

This might be if interest to some here. It contains a great deal of Greek, Roman and Persian material.

My new book: `Stellar Magic: A practical guide to the rites of the moon, planets, stars and constellations' (Avalonia, 2009) is now available your local bookshops and all online stores e.g. Amazon sites etc...

For further details about the book see its website: www.stellarmagic.co.uk

Praise for Stellar Magic:
"In Stellar Magic Dr Nabarz provides both the reader and the practitioner with an invaluable book filled with the rich lore of stars and a series of stunning and powerful rituals to enable a deeper awareness of the effect these have on our daily lives. Drawing on rare and out of the way materials Dr Nabarz has assembled a veritable treasure house of wisdom and lore. This is an absolute must for anyone even remotely interested in Star Lore and for any practicing magician or seeker after truth."
John Matthews (Author of many books including Walkers Between Worlds, The Grail Tarot, The Arthurian Tarot, The Celtic Shaman, Taliesin).

The stars have influenced mankind with their magic from time immemorial, as evidenced by Archaeoastronomy; instructing astrologers and priests, guiding sailors and inspiring poets. For millennia, cultures all around the world have told their myths and legends through the canvas of the night sky. Yet, despite the immense significance of the constellations and stars in the ancient world, stellar magic has been largely ignored in recent centuries.

In this inspirational and practical Liber Astrum, the author draws together material from ancient, classical and medieval sources; spanning East and West, fusing modern poetry with ancient magic, mysticism with myth, and ritual with recital to lift our gazes back to the heavens.

The author's breadth of scholarship is seen in the spectrum of material he weaves together, from sources as diverse as the Hymns of Orpheus and Plato's Timaeus to the Zoroastrian Yasht hymns and Persian Pahlavi Texts, the Sufi works of Ibn Arabi and Rumi; from the Chaldean Oracles and the Greek Magical Papyri to the Books of Ezekiel and Enoch, from the Picatrix and the Sefer Yetzirah to the works of John Dee, Rudolf Steiner, Gerald Gardner and Aleister Crowley.

The poetic inspiration of the stars is also expressed through material and ideas by such luminaries as John Milton, Gerald Manley Hopkins, Sylvia Plath, Robert Graves and W.B. Yeats.

Through the enchanting words and ceremonies provided to lead the way, timeless journeys to the stars are woven around the participants. Included amongst the rites are ceremonies with the constellations of Perseus & Andromeda, Cygnus, Orion, the Pleiades, the Great Bear, Draco, the twelve signs of the Zodiac, the star Sirius, the Moon, the seven classical Planets, and the Stellar World Cave: the Mithraeum.

This is a highly accessible, succinct and practical book on a complex subject, which will benefit anyone interested in the magic of the stars, from the casual observer of the night skies to the dedicated magician or mystic.

Published by Avalonia
www.avaloniabooks.co.uk
Price £12.99
ISBN-10: 1905297254
ISBN-13: 978-1905297252
www.stellarmagic.co.uk
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68508 From: lathyrus77 Date: 2009-07-06
Subject: Re: Mercy
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gualterus_graecus" <waltms1@...> wrote:
>
> That wasn't me :) You must be thinking of Caesar.
>
> -Gualterus
>

That's right it was caesar. My mistake.

-Anna
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68509 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2009-07-07
Subject: Latin classes...again
Latin classes...again A. Tullia Scholastica quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque bonae voluntatis S.P.D.

    As earlier noted, but buried in a heap of the sort of contentious posts which all too often (dis)grace this list, we will once again be offering beginning and intermediate Latin courses taught by two different methods this coming academic year, and work in conjunction with European and American immersion seminars to produce fluency in speaking and understanding both spoken and written Latin at a more advanced level.

    The traditional-method Grammatica Latina courses require memorization of vocabulary, grammatical forms, syntactical rules, etc., and are primarily geared toward reading Latin, but we also throw in some Latin composition (writing in Latin) and a bit of spoken Latin, especially in the intermediate course.  We use the popular Wheelock textbook (Frederic Wheelock, Wheelock’s Latin, sixth edition, revised by Richard La Fleur), supplemented by my lessons expanding on those in the text and sound files to help with aural/oral practice.  One lesson is covered every week after the  first week of the academic term; the first week of the introductory course is devoted to three preliminary lessons which provide an orientation to the language.  Written homework is required after every lesson, and must be submitted on time.  There is a midterm and a final examination for assessment purposes; the homework is corrected individually, but not graded.  The intermediate course begins with Wheelock’s Lesson 23 and finishes the text by late February to early March, whereupon we proceed to various readings in and out of the text, including selections from Caesar, Cicero, Horace, Catullus, and some other classical authors.  

    The assimilation method Sermo Latinus courses rely on frequent repetition of sentences, songs, and dialogs, etc., and reading of the text, which is bilingual in Latin/French or Latin/Italian (translated into English and Spanish onsite for students who can read neither French nor Italian) to produce fluency in reading, writing, and speaking Latin.  I can attest to its efficacy, though it seems most effective if one has had some acquaintance with Latin in the past.  The introductory course covers the first 56 of the 101 (short) lessons, and the intermediate one begins with lesson 57 and proceeds to the end of the text.  The long combined class we hope to offer this year covers all 101 lessons.

     Avitus has provided extensive lessons elaborating on the text and sound files of the exercises; the text is accompanied by mandatory tapes, which also assist with learning the sound patterns of the language.   The text is Le Latin Sans Peine by Clement Desessard (French), but has been taken out of print and replaced by a godawful substitute by someone else, a woman named Ducos-Filippi who cannot recite Latin paradigms correctly.  Booksellers will try to foist this one off on any unsuspecting prospective purchaser, so it is safer to obtain the Italian version, il Latino senza sforzo [not sure if this is completely accurate as I do not know Italian], which may also be taken out of print by the end of the year.  This text is expensive, and hard to obtain, so anyone contemplating taking these fine courses should begin the process of acquiring it now.  These courses have a written assignment or test after every seventh lesson; there is a midterm and a final examination for assessment purposes.  

    Grammatica Latina I is slated to begin Monday, September 7th, which is the US Labor Day holiday, but one need not appear onsite that day so long as one does show up by the next day to obtain the  preliminary lesson and other materials.  Grammatica II runs quite a bit longer, and will begin August 31st.  Tentatively, the two separate Sermo classes will begin September 21st, a change from the earlier contemplated date of September 28th.  We have not yet established a start date for the combined class as Avitus is concerned that Europeans may be on vacation, but reality is that we must begin this course in August in order to finish it before the heat and humidity make it impossible for me to teach, much less correct final exams.  

    Anyone interested in taking our Latin courses should contact me for further information.  Registration is still impossible as three of the courses are in session, and the fourth cannot be entered until its students can move up to the intermediate class.  Grammatica I is finished, and I have sent the corrected final exams from Sermo I to Avitus for review, but Grammatica II is working on the final examination, which I am correcting as the papers come in, and only when I finish that can I address the final examination for Sermo II.  After we post the marks, we have a lot to do before we can register new students, one of which involves the removal of the current members of the class.  When my clone arrives, things might go faster.  

Valete.


Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68510 From: Q. Valerius Poplicola Date: 2009-07-07
Subject: Re: Mercy
If NR is so bad, why in the world are you still here? Be gone then,
otherwise it seems you are doing nothing but trolling.

--------------------------------------------------
From: "lathyrus77" <lathyrus77@...>
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 6:43 PM
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Mercy

> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Timothy or Stephen Gallagher
> <spqr753@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Salve Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus
>>
>>
>>
>> I would have some objections to her returning to Nova Roma as a citizen
>> as she MAYBE a neo-Nazi or at least seems to keeps their >company.
>
> How do I "seem" to be a neo-nazi? How do I keep their company?
>
>
> If she or others can make the case that this is not so then I could be
> persuaded to have her back.
>>
>>
>
> No, you got it the wrong way around. I would have to be the one persuaded
> to come back. Nova Roma is a horrible organization, which is why I left
> it. You would have to fix the majority of the problems before I would even
> consider it.
>
>
>
>>
>> I would not however agree to return her to the Senate. She has, in my
>> opinion, proven to be to immature for the Senate.
>>
>
> LOL!
>
> Maybe you'd prefer it if I threatened a lawsuit because that is WAY more
> mature, right? What a load of bull. While I was in the senate I saw the
> most petty things, no progress, idiotic behaviour, and silly games played
> by silly people. My 4 yr old is more mature.
>
>
> You couldn't pay me to be in the senate.
>
> -Anna
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68511 From: lathyrus77 Date: 2009-07-07
Subject: Re: Mercy
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Q. Valerius Poplicola" <q.valerius.poplicola@...> wrote:
>
> If NR is so bad, why in the world are you still here? Be gone then,
> otherwise it seems you are doing nothing but trolling.
>


Cause I like to monitor the situation and offer my opinions. You think anything I do is trolling, so the word is pretty meaningless when you use it now. Good job, troll.

-Anna
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68512 From: marcushoratius Date: 2009-07-07
Subject: NONAE QUINCTILIAE: Juno Caprotina
M. Moravius Piscinus cultoribus Deorum et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit: Juno Caprotia nos complectatur dulce.

Hodie est Nonae Caprotinae; haec dies nefastus est: Ludi Apollini; Iunonis Caprotinae; ancillarum feriae

AUC 37 / 716 BCE: The Assumption of Romulus

"Romulus was offering a public sacrifice outside the CityÂ…in the presence of the Senate and most of the people, when suddenly there was a great commotion in the air, and a cloud descended to the earth bringing with it great blasts of wind and rain. The throng of common folk took flight in fear, and Romulus disappeared, never to be seen again dead or alive." ~ Plutarch, Life of Numa 2.1-2

"There is a place the ancients called the She-goat's Marsh: You chanced to be judging the people there, Romulus. The sun vanished, and rising clouds obscured the sky, and a heavy shower of torrential rain fell. Then it thundered. Then the sky was split by lightning: All fled, and the king rose to the stars behind his father's horses. There was mourning, senators were falsely charged with murder, and perhaps that belief might have stuck in people's minds, but Julius Proculus was travelling from Alba Longa, with the moon shining, and having no need of a torch, when suddenly the hedge to his left moved and shook: So that he drew back a step, his hair bristling. It seemed to him that Romulus, handsome, more than human, And finely dressed, stood there, in the centre of the road, saying: 'Prevent the Quirites from mourning me, and profaning my divinity by their tears: Let the pious crowds bring incense and propitiate the new God Quirinus, and cultivate their father's art of war.' So he commanded and vanished into thin air: Proculus gathered the people and reported the command. Temples were built for the god, the hill named for him, and on certain days the ancestral rites are re-enacted." ~ Ovidius Naso, Fasti 491-512


Juno Caprotia

"This day is called the Nones Caprotinae because on this day, in Latiun, the women offer sacrifice to Juno Caprotina, which they do under a caprificus (wild-fig) tree. They use a branch from the fig tree. Why this was done, the toga praetexta presented to them at the Ludi Apollinares enlightened the People." ~ M. Terrentius Varro, Lingua Latinae 6.18

Plutarch, Roman Questions 57:

"Why do women that sacrifice to Rumina pour milk over the offerings, but make no oblation of wine in the ceremony? Is it because the Latins call the teat `ruma', and assert that Ruminalis acquired its name inasmuch as the she-wolf offered its teat to Romulus? Therefore, as we call wet-nurses thelonai from thele (teat), even so Rumina is she that gives suck, the nurse and nurturer of children; she does not, therefore, welcome pure wine, since it is harmful for babes.

"Some, however, say this was not in imitation of a flight, but of a quick and hasty onset, referring it to the following occasion: After the Gauls who had taken Rome were driven out by Camillus, and the city was scarcely as yet recovering her strength, many of the Latins, under the command of Livius Postumius, took this time to march against her. Postumius, halting not far from Rome, sent a herald, signifying that the Latins were desirous to renew their former alliance and affinity (that was now almost decayed) by contracting new marriages between both nations; if, therefore, they would send forth a good number of their virgins and widows, they should have peace and friendship, such as the Sabines had formerly had on the like conditions. The Romans, hearing this, dreaded a war, yet thought a surrender of their women little better than mere captivity. Being in this doubt, a servant-maid called Philotis (or, as some say, Tutola), advised them to do neither, but, by a stratagem, avoid both fighting and the giving up of such pledges. The stratagem was this, that they should send herself, with other well looking servant-maids, to the enemy, in the dress of free-born virgins, and she should in the night light up a fire signal, at which the Romans should come armed and surprise them asleep. The Latins were thus deceived, and accordingly Philotis set up a torch in a wild fig-tree, screening it behind with curtains and coverlets from the sight of the enemy, while visible to the Romans. They, when they saw it, eagerly ran out of the gates, calling in their haste to each other as they went out, and so, falling in unexpectedly upon the enemy, they defeated them, and upon that made a feast of triumph, called the Nonae Caprotinae, because of the wild fig-tree, called by the Romans Caprificus, or the goat-fig. They feast the women without the city in arbours made of fig-tree boughs, and the maid-servants gather together and run about playing; afterwards they fight in sport, and throw stones one at another, in memory that they then aided and assisted the Roman men in fight. ~ Plutarch, Life of Romulus 29.3-6

"They say that the Latins, either as a pretext for war, or because they really wished to revive the ancient affinity between the two peoples, sent and demanded from the Romans free-born virgins in marriage. The Romans were in doubt what to do, for they dreaded war in their unsettled and unrestored condition, and yet they suspected that this demand for wives was really a call for hostages disguised under the specious name of intermarriage. In their perplexity, a serving-maid named Tutula, or, as some call her, Philotis, advised the magistrates to send her to the enemy with some maid-servants of the comeliest sort and most genteel appearance, all arrayed like free-born brides; she would attend to the rest. The magistrates yielded to her persuasions, chose out as many maid-servants as she thought meet for her purpose, arrayed them in fine raiment and gold, and handed them over to the Latins, who were encamped near the city. In the night, the rest of the maidens stole away the enemy's swords, while Tutula, or Philotis, climbed a wild fig-tree of great height, and after spreading out her cloak behind her, held out a lighted torch towards Rome, this being the signal agreed upon between her and the magistrates, though no other citizen knew of it. Hence it was that the soldiers sallied out of the city tumultuously, as the magistrates urged them on, calling out one another's names, and with much ado getting into rank and file. They stormed the entrenchments of the enemy, who were fast asleep and expecting nothing of the sort, captured their camp, and slew most of them. This happened on the Nones of what was then called Quintilis, now July, and the festival since held on that day is in remembrance of the exploit. For, to begin with, they run out of the city gate in throngs, calling out many local and common names, such as Gaius, Marcus, Lucius, and the like, in imitation of the way the soldiers once called aloud upon each other in their haste. Next, the maid-servants, in gay attire, run about jesting and joking with the men they met. They have a mock battle, too, with one another, implying that they once took a hand in the struggle with the Latins. And as they feast, they sit in the shade of a fig-tree's branches. The day is called the 'Capratine Nones,' from the wild fig-tree, as they suppose, from which the maid held forth her torch; this goes by the name of caprificus.

"But others say that most of what is said and done at this festival has reference to the fate of Romulus. For on this same day he vanished from sight, outside the city gates, in sudden darkness and tempest, and, as some think, during an eclipse of the sun. The day, they say, is called the "Capratine Nones" from the spot where he thus vanished. For the she-goat goes by the name of capra, and Romulus vanished from sight while haranguing an assembly of the people at the Goat's Marsh, as has been stated in his Life." ~ Plutarch, Life of Camillus 33.2-7


The second day of the Ludi Apollinares was celebrated with a sacrifice to Consus and with chariot races in the Circus Maximus.

"Apollo Soranus, Highest of the Gods, Holy Guardian of Mount Soracte, we who are foremost among Your worshippers, for You we set to flame the piled pine-wood, and Your worshippers, piously trusting our faith in You among the fires, press our step across the glowing embers. Grant, Father Almighty, that by our arms we may erase this disgrace. No plunder did I seek, no trophy to win from virgins, or any spoils; my fame shall follow from my feats. But while this dire plague strikes me with illness, inglorious I must return to the cities of our fathers." ~ P. Vergilius Maro, Aeneid 11.785-93


AUC 486 /267 BCE: Dedication of the Temple of Pales; Palibus duobus

"Great Pales, in memory of You we sing, shepherd of Amphrysis, and all of you who come from forests and streams on mount Lycaeus in Arcadia." ~ Virgil Georg. 3.1-2

At Rome Pales was identified as male by some and as female by other writers. Servius' comment on the passage in Virgil above notes Pales as a Goddess, as with Ovid. Varro, along with the rest of our sources, specifies Pales as being male. Outside Rome, as with most other Italian deities, Pales was a pair of deities, one male and the other female. This is most apparent where today a sacrifice is indicated to the "two Pales."

AUC 928 / 175 CE: Future emperor Commodus donned the toga virilis.

AUC 969 / 216 CE: Death of Pantaenus, founder of the Didascalia.

Pantaenus was a Stoic philosopher who was to convert to Christianity. He was the first recognized Christian teacher, found of its first catechetical school, at Alexandria, where he taught Clement of Alexandria. In 189 CE he was said to have traveled to India, although it may have been Ethiopia instead. He was said to have discovered there a Gospel of Matthew, written in Hebrew and carried there by a Bartholomew. His greatest significance was in assimilating Christianity to Stoicism. He was influential through Clement, and also through the Arian bishop Eusebius of Antioch. None of his writings remain, but Pantaenus is quoted at one point in Clement as having said: "The language employed by oracles for the most part is indefinite, the present tense being used for the future, and again the present for the past." This was used by Clement to interpret the comment, "In the sun hath He set His tent," where Jesus was equated with a solar deity and his tent was assumed to mean his physical body. Pantaenus employed Stoicism against the Gnostic, just as Plotinus argued against them. He is celebrated on 7 July, sometimes as a Christian martyr, although the year, and the place, and whether or not he died of natural causes or otherwise is not clearly stated in any Christian sources. In site of the stories told of his fantastic journeys, it is not even clear whether he was a Christian or if it was only hi Stoicism that influenced early Christians.


Our thought for today is from Marcus Aurelius, Meditations 9.8:

"Irrational creatures share in one animating soul; rational creatures partake in an intelligent soul, just as there is one earth for all earthly things, and one light by which to see, one air to breathe for all of us who have sight and life."
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68513 From: Steve Moore Date: 2009-07-07
Subject: Ludi Apollinares II

M. Valerius Potitus omnibus SPD.

 

Homeric Hymn to Apollo, Part II

 

TO PYTHIAN APOLLO --

 

O Lord, Lycia is yours and lovely Maeonia and Miletus , charming city by the sea, but over wave-girt Delos you greatly reign your own self.

 

Leto’s all-glorious son goes to rocky Pytho, playing upon his hollow lyre, clad in divine, perfumed garments; and at the touch of the golden key his lyre sings sweet.  Thence, swift as thought, he speeds from earth to Olympus , to the house of Zeus, to join the gathering of the other gods: then straightway the undying gods think only of the lyre and song, and all the Muses together, voice sweetly answering voice, hymn the unending gifts the gods enjoy and the sufferings of men, all that they endure at the hands of the deathless gods, and how they live witless and helpless and cannot find healing for death or defence against old age.  Meanwhile the rich-tressed Graces and cheerful Seasons dance with Harmonia and Hebe and Aphrodite, daughter of Zeus, holding each other by the wrist.  And among them sings one, not mean nor puny, but tall to look upon and enviable in mien, Artemis who delights in arrows, sister of Apollo.  Among them sport Ares and the keen-eyed Slayer of Argus, while Apollo plays his lyre stepping high and featly and a radiance shines around him, the gleaming of his feet and close-woven vest.  And they, even gold-tressed Leto and wise Zeus, rejoice in their great hearts as they watch their dear son playing among the undying gods.

 

How then shall I sing of you—though in all ways you are a worthy theme for song?  Shall I sing of you as wooer and in the fields of love, how you went wooing the daughter of Azan along with god-like Ischys the son of well-horsed Elatius, or with Phorbas sprung from Triops, or with Ereutheus, or with Leucippus and the wife of Leucippus…[Lacuna]…you on foot, he with his chariot, yet he fell not short of Triops.  Or shall I sing how at the first you went about the earth seeking a place of oracle for men, O far-shooting Apollo?  To Pieria first you went down from Olympus and passed by sandy Lectus and Enienae and through the land of the Perrhaebi.  Soon you came to Iolcus and set foot on Cenaeum in Euboea , famed for ships: you stood in the Lelantine plain, but it pleased not your heart to make a temple there and wooded groves.  From there you crossed the Euripus, far-shooting Apollo, and went up the green, holy hills, going on to Mycalessus and grassy-bedded Teumessus, and so came to the wood-clad abode of Thebe; for as yet no man lived in holy Thebe, nor were there tracks or ways about Thebe’s wheat-bearing plain as yet.

 

And further still you went, O far-shooting Apollo, and came to Onchestus, Poseidon’s bright grove: there the new- broken cold distressed with drawing the trim chariot gets spirit again, and the skilled driver springs from his car and goes on his way.  Then the horses for a while rattle the empty car, being rid of guidance; and if they break the chariot in the woody grove, men look after the horses, but tilt the chariot and leave it there; for this was the rite from the very first.  And the drivers pray to the lord of the shrine; but the chariot falls to the lot of the god.

 

Further yet you went, O far-shooting Apollo, and reached next Cephissus’ sweet stream which pours forth its sweet-flowing water from Lilaea, and crossing over it, O worker from afar, you passed many-towered Ocalea and reached grassy Haliartus.

 

Then you went towards Telphusa: and there the pleasant place seemed fit for making a temple and wooded grove.  You came very near and spoke to her: “Telphusa, here I am minded to make a glorious temple, an oracle for men, and hither they will always bring perfect hecatombs, both those who live in rich Peloponnesus and those of Europe and all the wave-washed isles, coming to seek oracles.  And I will deliver to them all counsel that cannot fail, giving answer in my rich temple.”

 

So said Phoebus Apollo, and laid out all the foundations throughout, wide and very long.  But when Telphusa saw this, she was angry in heart and spoke, saying: “Lord Phoebus, worker from afar, I will speak a word of counsel to your heart, since you are minded to make here a glorious temple to be an oracle for men who will always bring hither perfect hecatombs for you; yet I will speak out, and do you lay up my words in your heart.  The trampling of swift horses and the sound of mules watering at my sacred springs will always irk you, and men will like better to gaze at the well-made chariots and stamping, swift-footed horses than at your great temple and the many treasures that are within.  But if you will be moved by me—for you, lord, are stronger and mightier than I, and your strength is very great—build at Crisa below the glades of Parnassus: there no bright chariot will clash, and there will be no noise of swift-footed horses near your well-built altar.  But so the glorious tribes of men will bring gifts to you as Iepaeon (‘Hail- Healer’), and you will receive with delight rich sacrifices from the people dwelling round about.”  So said Telphusa, that she alone, and not the Far-Shooter, should have renown there; and she persuaded the Far-Shooter.

 

Further yet you went, far-shooting Apollo, until you came to the town of the presumptuous Phlegyae who dwell on this earth in a lovely glade near the Cephisian lake, caring not for Zeus.  And thence you went speeding swiftly to the mountain ridge, and came to Crisa beneath snowy Parnassus , a foothill turned towards the west: a cliff hangs over if from above, and a hollow, rugged glade runs under.  There the lord Phoebus Apollo resolved to make his lovely temple, and thus he said:

 

“In this place I am minded to build a glorious temple to be an oracle for men, and here they will always bring perfect hecatombs, both they who dwell in rich Peloponnesus and the men of Europe and from all the wave-washed isles, coming to question me.  And I will deliver to them all counsel that cannot fail, answering them in my rich temple.”

 

When he had said this, Phoebus Apollo laid out all the foundations throughout, wide and very long; and upon these the sons of Erginus, Trophonius and Agamedes, dear to the deathless gods, laid a footing of stone.  And the countless tribes of men built the whole temple of wrought stones, to be sung of for ever.

 

[Continued tomorrow]

 

 

Homeric Hymn III, translated by Hugh G. Evelyn-White, and published in the Loeb Classical Library, 1926.

Group: Nova-Roma Message: 68514 From: A. Sempronius Regulus Date: 2009-07-07
Subject: Re: Nonfunctional linkRe: [Nova-Roma] Re: ANNOUNCEMENT of CONVENTUS
Thanks, I asked our webmaster people earlier but didn't get a reply. Pointing out it was the second time was to see if anyone noticed.

--- On Tue, 7/7/09, L Julia Aquila <dis_pensible@...> wrote:

From: L Julia Aquila <dis_pensible@...>
Subject: Nonfunctional linkRe: [Nova-Roma] Re: ANNOUNCEMENT of CONVENTUS NOVAE ROMAE in North America!
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, July 7, 2009, 1:33 AM

Salve,

Semprone, unfortunately yahoo disables the last part so you have to copy it and paste it in the browser.
If you have anymore problems it will be my pleasure to email you the link.
We might not have the same problem when we go to the new server. I am not sure though because I have little knowledge in this respect.
Hope I have helped;)

Vale,
Julia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, "A. Sempronius Regulus" <asempronius. regulus@. ..> wrote:
>
> And, for a second time, the agenda does not come up after you click on the link.
>
> --- On Mon, 7/6/09, L Julia Aquila <dis_pensible@ ...> wrote: