Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69214 |
From: A. Tullia Scholastica |
Date: 2009-08-16 |
Subject: Wheelock Latin class registration now OPEN |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69215 |
From: Robert Levee |
Date: 2009-08-16 |
Subject: Praetorial Staff! |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69216 |
From: marcushoratius |
Date: 2009-08-16 |
Subject: a. d. XVII Kalendas Septembras: Early Statues of Italy |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69217 |
From: Timothy or Stephen Gallagher |
Date: 2009-08-16 |
Subject: Att Praetors Staff |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69218 |
From: Aqvillivs Rota |
Date: 2009-08-16 |
Subject: Re: AW: [Nova-Roma] Re: The SURVEY |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69219 |
From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus |
Date: 2009-08-16 |
Subject: Re: Praetorial Staff! |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69220 |
From: Titus Flavius Aquila |
Date: 2009-08-16 |
Subject: AW: [Nova-Roma] Senate session and report of the tribune |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69221 |
From: marcus_iulius_scaeva |
Date: 2009-08-16 |
Subject: New here in Nova Roma |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69222 |
From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com |
Date: 2009-08-16 |
Subject: Re: Senate session and report of the tribune |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69223 |
From: Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator |
Date: 2009-08-16 |
Subject: Re: New here in Nova Roma |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69224 |
From: C. Maria Caeca |
Date: 2009-08-16 |
Subject: Re: New here in Nova Roma |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69225 |
From: Gaius Equitius Cato |
Date: 2009-08-16 |
Subject: Re: New here in Nova Roma |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69226 |
From: A. Sempronius Regulus |
Date: 2009-08-16 |
Subject: Nova Roma Gathering September 2009 |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69227 |
From: Robin Marquardt |
Date: 2009-08-16 |
Subject: Re: Nova Roma Gathering September 2009 |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69228 |
From: Maior |
Date: 2009-08-16 |
Subject: Re: New here in Nova Roma |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69229 |
From: Roberto Colon |
Date: 2009-08-17 |
Subject: Re: New here in Nova Roma |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69230 |
From: Roberto Colon |
Date: 2009-08-17 |
Subject: Re: New here in Nova Roma |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69231 |
From: C. Maria Caeca |
Date: 2009-08-17 |
Subject: Re: New here in Nova Roma |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69232 |
From: A. Tullia Scholastica |
Date: 2009-08-17 |
Subject: Re: AW: [Nova-Roma] Re: The SURVEY |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69233 |
From: A. Tullia Scholastica |
Date: 2009-08-17 |
Subject: Re: Senate session and report of the tribune |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69234 |
From: A. Tullia Scholastica |
Date: 2009-08-17 |
Subject: Re: New here in Nova Roma |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69235 |
From: Timothy or Stephen Gallagher |
Date: 2009-08-17 |
Subject: Away |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69236 |
From: marcushoratius |
Date: 2009-08-17 |
Subject: a. d. XVI Kalendas Septembras: PORTUNALIA |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69237 |
From: John Citron |
Date: 2009-08-17 |
Subject: Re: New here in Nova Roma |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69238 |
From: John Citron |
Date: 2009-08-17 |
Subject: Re: New here in Nova Roma |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69239 |
From: John Citron |
Date: 2009-08-17 |
Subject: Re: New here in Nova Roma |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69240 |
From: Gaius Petronius Dexter |
Date: 2009-08-17 |
Subject: Portunalia |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69241 |
From: fauxrari |
Date: 2009-08-17 |
Subject: Re: Roman Clothing. |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69242 |
From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com |
Date: 2009-08-17 |
Subject: Posting rules in this Forum, 8/17/2009, 11:45 pm |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69243 |
From: c.aqvillivs_rota |
Date: 2009-08-17 |
Subject: 09 Survey AAe-For a better Republic |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69244 |
From: marcushoratius |
Date: 2009-08-18 |
Subject: a. d. XV Kalendas Septembras: Temple of Divus Iulius |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69245 |
From: A. Sempronius Regulus |
Date: 2009-08-18 |
Subject: Platonic-Stoic Meditation 2 |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69246 |
From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com |
Date: 2009-08-18 |
Subject: Change of Email Address - Tribunus Plebis Fl. Galerius Aurelianus |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69247 |
From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com |
Date: 2009-08-18 |
Subject: Results of the July Senate Session |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69248 |
From: Maior |
Date: 2009-08-18 |
Subject: Re: Portunalia |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69249 |
From: william horan |
Date: 2009-08-18 |
Subject: Re: a. d. XV Kalendas Septembras: Temple of Divus Iulius |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69250 |
From: A. Sempronius Regulus |
Date: 2009-08-18 |
Subject: Re: [Austrorientalis] Nova Roma Gathering September 2009 |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69251 |
From: A. Sempronius Regulus |
Date: 2009-08-18 |
Subject: Re: [Austrorientalis] Nova Roma Gathering September 2009 |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69252 |
From: Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator |
Date: 2009-08-18 |
Subject: Dies Mali... |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69253 |
From: galerius_of_rome |
Date: 2009-08-18 |
Subject: Senate Report for July! |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69254 |
From: william horan |
Date: 2009-08-18 |
Subject: Re: [Austrorientalis] Nova Roma Gathering September 2009 |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69255 |
From: Maior |
Date: 2009-08-18 |
Subject: Re: [Austrorientalis] Nova Roma Gathering September 2009 |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69256 |
From: A. Sempronius Regulus |
Date: 2009-08-18 |
Subject: Re: Dies Mali... |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69257 |
From: A. Sempronius Regulus |
Date: 2009-08-18 |
Subject: Re: [Austrorientalis] Nova Roma Gathering September 2009 |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69258 |
From: Marcvs Octavivs Corvvs |
Date: 2009-08-18 |
Subject: Reconstruction or Resurrection |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69259 |
From: Marcvs Octavivs Corvvs |
Date: 2009-08-18 |
Subject: Ides ritual performed by Sacerdos Iovis M.Octavius Corvus |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69260 |
From: Maior |
Date: 2009-08-18 |
Subject: Re: Reconstruction or Resurrection |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69261 |
From: Marcvs Octavivs Corvvs |
Date: 2009-08-18 |
Subject: Re: Reconstruction or Resurrection |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69262 |
From: Titus Flavius Aquila |
Date: 2009-08-19 |
Subject: AW: [Nova-Roma] Dies Mali... |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69263 |
From: marcushoratius |
Date: 2009-08-19 |
Subject: a. d. XIV Kalendas Septembras: VINALIA RUSTICA |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69264 |
From: marcushoratius |
Date: 2009-08-19 |
Subject: Re: Reconstruction or Resurrection |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69265 |
From: M. Lucretius Agricola |
Date: 2009-08-19 |
Subject: Re: Ides ritual performed by Sacerdos Iovis M.Octavius Corvus |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69266 |
From: Steve Moore |
Date: 2009-08-19 |
Subject: Re: Dies Mali... |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69267 |
From: Titus Flavius Aquila |
Date: 2009-08-19 |
Subject: AW: [Nova-Roma] Dies Mali... |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69268 |
From: A. Sempronius Regulus |
Date: 2009-08-19 |
Subject: Fw: Mysteries and Philosophy |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69269 |
From: livia_plauta |
Date: 2009-08-19 |
Subject: Altinum |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69270 |
From: A. Sempronius Regulus |
Date: 2009-08-19 |
Subject: Re: Altinum |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69271 |
From: Jesse Corradino |
Date: 2009-08-19 |
Subject: Re: Dies Mali... |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69272 |
From: A. Sempronius Regulus |
Date: 2009-08-19 |
Subject: Turin Exhibit -- Ancient Roman Perfume and Music and more |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69273 |
From: rory12001 |
Date: 2009-08-19 |
Subject: Re: Turin Exhibit -- Ancient Roman Perfume and Music and more |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69274 |
From: A. Tullia Scholastica |
Date: 2009-08-20 |
Subject: Latin class registration |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69275 |
From: marcushoratius |
Date: 2009-08-20 |
Subject: a. d. XIII Kalendas Septembras |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69276 |
From: A. Sempronius Regulus |
Date: 2009-08-20 |
Subject: Carving Projects: Silvanus and Virbius |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69277 |
From: A. Sempronius Regulus |
Date: 2009-08-20 |
Subject: A few Virbius References |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69278 |
From: gequitiuscato |
Date: 2009-08-20 |
Subject: Pompeii - Prelude to Disaster |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69279 |
From: livia_plauta |
Date: 2009-08-20 |
Subject: Re: Altinum |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69280 |
From: livia_plauta |
Date: 2009-08-20 |
Subject: Re: Turin Exhibit -- Ancient Roman Perfume and Music and more |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69281 |
From: A. Sempronius Regulus |
Date: 2009-08-20 |
Subject: Media and the Ker was: Altinum |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69282 |
From: rory12001 |
Date: 2009-08-20 |
Subject: Re: Turin Exhibit -- Ancient Roman Perfume and Music and more |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69283 |
From: A. Sempronius Regulus |
Date: 2009-08-20 |
Subject: Alembic and Herbalism Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Turin Exhibit -- Ancient R |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69284 |
From: luciaiuliaaquila |
Date: 2009-08-20 |
Subject: The Rotunda Murals Of John Singer Sargent: The Glorious Gods |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69285 |
From: livia_plauta |
Date: 2009-08-20 |
Subject: Alembic and Herbalism Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Turin Exhibit -- Ancient R |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69286 |
From: A. Sempronius Regulus |
Date: 2009-08-20 |
Subject: Re: Alembic and Herbalism Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Turin Exhibit -- Ancie |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69287 |
From: A. Sempronius Regulus |
Date: 2009-08-20 |
Subject: PS Re: Alembic and Herbalism Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Turin Exhibit -- An |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69288 |
From: livia_plauta |
Date: 2009-08-20 |
Subject: Alembic and Herbalism Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Turin Exhibit -- Ancient R |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69289 |
From: A. Sempronius Regulus |
Date: 2009-08-20 |
Subject: Re: Alembic and Herbalism Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Turin Exhibit -- Ancie |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69290 |
From: livia_plauta |
Date: 2009-08-20 |
Subject: Alembic and Herbalism Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Turin Exhibit -- Ancient R |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69291 |
From: rory12001 |
Date: 2009-08-20 |
Subject: Alembic and Herbalism Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Turin Exhibit -- Ancient R |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69292 |
From: rory12001 |
Date: 2009-08-20 |
Subject: Alembic and Herbalism Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Turin Exhibit -- Ancient R |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69293 |
From: jfarnoud94 |
Date: 2009-08-21 |
Subject: Alembic and Herbalism Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Turin Exhibit -- Ancient R |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69294 |
From: petronius_dexter |
Date: 2009-08-21 |
Subject: Alembic and Herbalism Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Turin Exhibit -- Ancient R |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69295 |
From: A. Tullia Scholastica |
Date: 2009-08-21 |
Subject: Re: Alembic and Herbalism Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Turin Exhibit -- Ancie |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69296 |
From: Jesse Corradino |
Date: 2009-08-21 |
Subject: Re: Alembic and Herbalism Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Turin Exhibit -- Ancie |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69297 |
From: gequitiuscato |
Date: 2009-08-21 |
Subject: a.d. XII Kal. Sept. |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69298 |
From: marcushoratius |
Date: 2009-08-21 |
Subject: a. d. XII Kalendas Septembras: CONSUALIA |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69299 |
From: c.aqvillivs_rota |
Date: 2009-08-21 |
Subject: A FEW MINUTES FOR MORE OFFLINE ACTIVITY |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69300 |
From: A. Sempronius Regulus |
Date: 2009-08-21 |
Subject: Re: Alembic and Herbalism Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Turin Exhibit -- Ancie |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69301 |
From: A. Sempronius Regulus |
Date: 2009-08-21 |
Subject: Re: Alembic and Herbalism Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Turin Exhibit -- Ancie |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69302 |
From: gualterus_graecus |
Date: 2009-08-21 |
Subject: Alembic and Herbalism Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Turin Exhibit -- Ancient R |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69303 |
From: livia_plauta |
Date: 2009-08-21 |
Subject: Alembic and Herbalism Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Turin Exhibit -- Ancient R |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69304 |
From: rory12001 |
Date: 2009-08-21 |
Subject: Alembic and Herbalism Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Turin Exhibit -- Ancient R |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69305 |
From: jester723 |
Date: 2009-08-21 |
Subject: Another request for oman study topic information |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69306 |
From: luciaiuliaaquila |
Date: 2009-08-21 |
Subject: Re: Classic Poetry, Prose, Proems, Literature Excerpts |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69307 |
From: gequitiuscato |
Date: 2009-08-21 |
Subject: Re: Classic Poetry, Prose, Proems, Literature Excerpts |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69308 |
From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com |
Date: 2009-08-21 |
Subject: Re: Another request for oman study topic information |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69309 |
From: asseri@aol.com |
Date: 2009-08-21 |
Subject: looking for an older post |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69310 |
From: luciaiuliaaquila |
Date: 2009-08-21 |
Subject: Re: Classic Poetry, Prose, Proems, Literature Excerpts |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69311 |
From: luciaiuliaaquila |
Date: 2009-08-21 |
Subject: Re: Classic Poetry, Prose, Proems, Literature Excerpts |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69312 |
From: gequitiuscato |
Date: 2009-08-21 |
Subject: Re: Classic Poetry, Prose, Proems, Literature Excerpts |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69313 |
From: petronius_dexter |
Date: 2009-08-22 |
Subject: Alembic and Herbalism Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Turin Exhibit -- Ancient R |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69314 |
From: marcushoratius |
Date: 2009-08-22 |
Subject: a. d. XI Kalendas Septembras: Adesia |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69315 |
From: gequitiuscato |
Date: 2009-08-22 |
Subject: Pompeii - Two Days Left |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69316 |
From: Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator |
Date: 2009-08-22 |
Subject: A memorial poem...of sorts |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69317 |
From: A. Tullia Scholastica |
Date: 2009-08-23 |
Subject: Sermo Latinus/Grammatica Latina class registration |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69318 |
From: gequitiuscato |
Date: 2009-08-23 |
Subject: a.d. X Kal. Sept. |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69319 |
From: marcushoratius |
Date: 2009-08-23 |
Subject: a. d. X Kalendas Septembres: VOLCANALIA |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69320 |
From: marcushoratius |
Date: 2009-08-23 |
Subject: Re: a.d. X Kal. Sept. |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69321 |
From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com |
Date: 2009-08-23 |
Subject: File - language.txt |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69322 |
From: gequitiuscato |
Date: 2009-08-23 |
Subject: Re: a.d. X Kal. Sept. |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69323 |
From: rory12001 |
Date: 2009-08-23 |
Subject: Re: a.d. X Kal. Sept. |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69324 |
From: gequitiuscato |
Date: 2009-08-23 |
Subject: Re: a.d. X Kal. Sept. |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69325 |
From: A. Tullia Scholastica |
Date: 2009-08-24 |
Subject: Manu Plini |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69326 |
From: A. Decia Scriptrix |
Date: 2009-08-24 |
Subject: Re: Alembic and Herbalism Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Turin Exhibit -- Ancie |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69327 |
From: gequitiuscato |
Date: 2009-08-24 |
Subject: a.d. IX Kal. Sept. - The Eruption of Vesuvius |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69328 |
From: Thomas Vogel |
Date: 2009-08-24 |
Subject: I am out of the office. |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69329 |
From: marcushoratius |
Date: 2009-08-24 |
Subject: a. d. IX Kalendas Septembres: Mundus opened; Vesuvius erupts |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69330 |
From: marcushoratius |
Date: 2009-08-24 |
Subject: Re: a.d. X Kal. Sept. |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69331 |
From: william horan |
Date: 2009-08-24 |
Subject: Re: a.d. X Kal. Sept. |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69332 |
From: gequitiuscato |
Date: 2009-08-24 |
Subject: Re: a.d. X Kal. Sept. |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69333 |
From: william horan |
Date: 2009-08-24 |
Subject: Re: A memorial poem...of sorts |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69334 |
From: gualterus_graecus |
Date: 2009-08-24 |
Subject: Re: a.d. X Kal. Sept. |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69335 |
From: rory12001 |
Date: 2009-08-24 |
Subject: Re: A memorial poem...of sorts |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69336 |
From: A. Sempronius Regulus |
Date: 2009-08-24 |
Subject: Re: A memorial poem...of sorts |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69337 |
From: livia_plauta |
Date: 2009-08-24 |
Subject: Alembic and Herbalism Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Turin Exhibit -- Ancient R |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69338 |
From: A. Sempronius Regulus |
Date: 2009-08-24 |
Subject: Re: Alembic and Herbalism Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Turin Exhibit -- Ancie |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69339 |
From: Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator |
Date: 2009-08-24 |
Subject: Re: A memorial poem...of sorts |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69340 |
From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com |
Date: 2009-08-24 |
Subject: Posting rules in this Forum, 8/24/2009, 11:45 pm |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69341 |
From: A. Sempronius Regulus |
Date: 2009-08-24 |
Subject: Re: [Austrorientalis] Re: Nova Roma Gathering September 2009 |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69342 |
From: gequitiuscato |
Date: 2009-08-24 |
Subject: Re: A memorial poem...of sorts |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69343 |
From: A. Decia Scriptrix |
Date: 2009-08-25 |
Subject: Re: Alembic and Herbalism Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Turin Exhibit -- Ancie |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69344 |
From: Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator |
Date: 2009-08-25 |
Subject: Re: A memorial poem...of sorts |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69345 |
From: marcushoratius |
Date: 2009-08-25 |
Subject: a. d. VIII Kalendas Septembres: OPICONSIVA; Libertas |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69346 |
From: A. Sempronius Regulus |
Date: 2009-08-25 |
Subject: Re: A memorial poem...of sorts |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69347 |
From: asempronius.regulus |
Date: 2009-08-25 |
Subject: Re: A memorial poem...of sorts |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69348 |
From: gequitiuscato |
Date: 2009-08-25 |
Subject: Re: A memorial poem...of sorts |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69349 |
From: luciaiuliaaquila |
Date: 2009-08-25 |
Subject: Re: Classic Poetry, Prose, Proems, Literature Excerpts |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69350 |
From: luciaiuliaaquila |
Date: 2009-08-25 |
Subject: Re: Videos about Ancient Rome |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69351 |
From: livia_plauta |
Date: 2009-08-25 |
Subject: Alembic and Herbalism Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Turin Exhibit -- Ancient R |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69352 |
From: luciaiuliaaquila |
Date: 2009-08-25 |
Subject: Re: Videos about Ancient Rome |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69353 |
From: A. Sempronius Regulus |
Date: 2009-08-25 |
Subject: Re: Alembic and Herbalism Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Turin Exhibit -- Ancie |
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Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69354 |
From: livia_plauta |
Date: 2009-08-25 |
Subject: Alembic and Herbalism Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Turin Exhibit -- Ancient R |
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Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69355 |
From: luciaiuliaaquila |
Date: 2009-08-25 |
Subject: Alembic and Herbalism Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Turin Exhibit -- Ancient R |
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Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69356 |
From: luciaiuliaaquila |
Date: 2009-08-25 |
Subject: Alembic and Herbalism Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Turin Exhibit -- Ancient R |
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Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69357 |
From: Gaius Petronius Dexter |
Date: 2009-08-25 |
Subject: Essai |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69358 |
From: A. Sempronius Regulus |
Date: 2009-08-25 |
Subject: Re: Alembic and Herbalism Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Turin Exhibit -- Ancie |
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Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69359 |
From: william horan |
Date: 2009-08-25 |
Subject: Re: A memorial poem...of sorts |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69360 |
From: william horan |
Date: 2009-08-25 |
Subject: Re: A memorial poem...of sorts |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69361 |
From: Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator |
Date: 2009-08-25 |
Subject: Re: A memorial poem...of sorts |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69362 |
From: A. Sempronius Regulus |
Date: 2009-08-25 |
Subject: Re: A memorial poem...of sorts |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69363 |
From: Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator |
Date: 2009-08-25 |
Subject: Re: A memorial poem...of sorts |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69364 |
From: luciaiuliaaquila |
Date: 2009-08-25 |
Subject: Alembic and Herbalism Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Turin Exhibit -- Ancient R |
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Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69366 |
From: A. Tullia Scholastica |
Date: 2009-08-25 |
Subject: Re: Alembic and Herbalism Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Turin Exhibit -- Ancie |
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Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69367 |
From: gequitiuscato |
Date: 2009-08-26 |
Subject: Re: A memorial poem...of sorts |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69368 |
From: A. Tullia Scholastica |
Date: 2009-08-26 |
Subject: Re: Alembic and Herbalism Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Turin Exhibit -- Ancie |
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Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69369 |
From: Kirsteen Wright |
Date: 2009-08-26 |
Subject: Re: Alembic and Herbalism Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Turin Exhibit -- Ancie |
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Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69370 |
From: marcushoratius |
Date: 2009-08-26 |
Subject: a. d. VII Kalendas Septembres: Masinissa and Sophonisba |
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Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69371 |
From: gequitiuscato |
Date: 2009-08-26 |
Subject: Alembic and Herbalism Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Turin Exhibit -- Ancient R |
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Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69372 |
From: A. Sempronius Regulus |
Date: 2009-08-26 |
Subject: Fires in Greece |
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Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69373 |
From: A. Sempronius Regulus |
Date: 2009-08-26 |
Subject: Ullr Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: A memorial poem...of sorts |
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Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69374 |
From: rikudemyx |
Date: 2009-08-26 |
Subject: Re: Fires in Greece |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69375 |
From: rory12001 |
Date: 2009-08-26 |
Subject: Alembic and Herbalism Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Turin Exhibit -- Ancient R |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69376 |
From: gequitiuscato |
Date: 2009-08-26 |
Subject: Alembic and Herbalism Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Turin Exhibit -- Ancient R |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69377 |
From: Kirsteen Wright |
Date: 2009-08-26 |
Subject: Re: Alembic and Herbalism Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Turin Exhibit -- Ancie |
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Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69378 |
From: luciaiuliaaquila |
Date: 2009-08-26 |
Subject: Re: Fires in Greece |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69379 |
From: luciaiuliaaquila |
Date: 2009-08-26 |
Subject: Alembic and Herbalism Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Turin Exhibit -- Ancient R |
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Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69380 |
From: luciaiuliaaquila |
Date: 2009-08-26 |
Subject: Re: a. d. VII Kalendas Septembres: Masinissa and Sophonisba |
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Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69381 |
From: luciaiuliaaquila |
Date: 2009-08-26 |
Subject: Re: Classic Poetry, Prose, Proems, Literature Excerpts |
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Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69382 |
From: Timothy or Stephen Gallagher |
Date: 2009-08-26 |
Subject: Latin Phrase of the day |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69383 |
From: luciaiuliaaquila |
Date: 2009-08-26 |
Subject: Re: Videos about Ancient Rome |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69385 |
From: luciaiuliaaquila |
Date: 2009-08-26 |
Subject: Re: Classic Poetry, Prose, Proems, Literature Excerpts |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69386 |
From: rikudemyx |
Date: 2009-08-26 |
Subject: Alembic and Herbalism Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Turin Exhibit -- Ancient R |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69387 |
From: gequitiuscato |
Date: 2009-08-26 |
Subject: Re: Videos about Ancient Rome |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69388 |
From: gequitiuscato |
Date: 2009-08-26 |
Subject: Alembic and Herbalism Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Turin Exhibit -- Ancient R |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69389 |
From: Jesse Corradino |
Date: 2009-08-26 |
Subject: Re: Alembic and Herbalism Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Turin Exhibit -- Ancie |
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Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69390 |
From: luciaiuliaaquila |
Date: 2009-08-26 |
Subject: Alembic and Herbalism Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Turin Exhibit -- Ancient R |
|
Group: Nova-Roma |
Message: 69391 |
From: luciaiuliaaquila |
Date: 2009-08-26 |
Subject: Re: Videos about Ancient Rome |
|
In our last meditation, we asked whether you have ever considered what you really control in your life.
We said this is an important question because the philosophical quest requires a certain inner force or energy that we leak all the time in outward pursuits. We also said that it is not the outward pursuits that are the problem; it is this special energy that we invest and put into them. This energy and daemon is Eros, and as desire for the divine, when it is misdirected into outward pursuits, it tightens the bonds of our inner bondage to our reactions to the outward world even more.
We stated that to pursue the philosophical quest requires Eros. Thus, it requires for a long while at the beginning a self-examined search for our "leaks" of this energy/force that we spend without knowing it. We need to withdraw the energy and life of Eros out
from our addiction to react, be moved, or preoccupied with outward events. Again, this is a very long process of examining our “leaks†by which we lose inner force. The very attempt to inwardly see, experientially, the ways we lose inner force begins to transform the psyche. Just seeing and becoming aware of the ways we lose this inner force of Eros is itself transformative. This is why the divine Plato called the philosophical quest, which involves as a first step this inner re-gathering of Eros, therapy. Philosophy is therapy of the psyche. It is a process of re-integrating the psyche. As it is, the psyche is at war with itself. Each of the ways that we lose the inner force of Eros, each of the leaks, is a form of inner slavery to the ways the outward world pulls our puppet strings that also claims to be our self. Thus, we have a fragmented sense of false identity. As therapy that re-gathers Eros as an inner force, philosophy, Plato tells us, is a
process in which the human psyche is “hena genomenon ek pollon, sophrona kai hermosmenon†(“one made out of many, self-controlled and harmonized†-- Republic, 443e).
All humans are mad. Plato tells us there are no exceptions but there are two kinds of madness. There is divine madness and there is the madness of the world. From the divine perspective of reality, divine madness appears mad but really is not while the madness of the world appears to be sanity and is not. A human being is either in one state or the other or in a mixture of the two possible states. But why does philosophy, along with Plato, refer to both possible states as madness. It is because both states are forms of ekstasis. The modern word ecstasy is a distortion of the original meaning of its Greek original. Ekstasis means to be “beside oneself†or “outside and beyond oneselfâ€. In the madness caused within us by investing our inner Eros into the world, we not
only lose force and become inwardly fragmented in the multiple ways that the world steals our inner force, but also, we are outside our true self. Thus, the apparent sanity of the world, which is really madness, is an ekstasis.
Our false sense of self, the inner sense of self derived from the outer world’s inner claims upon us, is a state of being outside and beyond our true self – who we really are. By contrast, the divine madness is another kind of ekstasis for two reasons. First, the philosophical search or quest, which is the re-gathering of our inner force – our Eros – and re-directing it towards the divine, takes us out of our false sense of self. So, in rediscovering our true self, we are outside, beside, and beyond our conventional, socially derived, and worldly-determined false sense of self. But, the divine madness of the philosophical quest is also an ekstasis for a second reason. We will find that our true self is a divine ideal – an archetype of who we should be – that is always something to strive for, to search for, and is always elusively beyond us, at least in this life. Thus, the divine madness of the philosophical quest, as therapy, is an
ekstasis to the extent our true self is outside and beyond us in our quest..
We have said that the first step in the philosophical quest is self-examination. This begins to lead to self-knowledge but the first phase of this, which is also a re-gathering of our inner Eros and an accumulation of inner force, is the askesis or “inner struggle†or “striving†to prevent loss of force. It is a process of countering the ways we lose force and wrongly invest Eros in ways that enslave us.
The therapy of philosophy, at least the real philosophy practiced as a way of life that involved the whole person in a spiritual path of transformation (unlike modern philosophy which is, more or less, the bookish study of philosophy rather than philosophy itself), the way of philosophy as a Mystery tradition arising out of the Mysteries, does provide spiritual exercises to discover and counteract our energy-leaks – our ways of losing inner
force.
One such major leak by which we lose inner force – spend Eros – is our constant inner process of self-justification. “I did this because he did that and I was within my rights…..†The resentments, hurts, and slights that make us believe the world treats us badly powers and animates this inner process of self-justification. This is a loss of inner force, even if we feel fed by it, because it consumes us. That this constant inner process of self-justification is a loss of force that controls us and makes us inner slaves can be directly seen, in a experiential seeing (which we will have to talk more about later, we are talking about the power of nous and not mere introspection), where we try to stop it. If any here are serious meditators, you have some idea of what I am saying. Ancient philosophy prescribed, as therapy, three exercises to counteract this form of inner loss of force.
The first obstacle we face in the
philosophical quest is procrastination. We might be mildly interested in philosophy and spiritual topics. We might even think we take such things seriously. But we also then say to ourselves, “I’m too busy today, I have too many things at work, I’m behind on this and that, I have a family that places demands on my time,†and maybe, we add, “maybe someday I can pursue thisâ€. There are a number of things at the root of this attitude but there is one that is key. We undervalue time. We may have a sense of the value and importance of money. But we tend to not even think of time as a valuable commodity even though our languages metaphorically model time as money. We say things like “don’t waste your time†and “spend your time wisely†but we don’t react and respond to the fact that time is limited and running out. The other factors behind procrasination may become material to deal with later but first we need to generate a sense of
urgency that makes pursuing philosophy and the life of the spirit, NOW, a high priority. Philosophy proposes an exercise that helps some develop this sense of urgency that overcomes our inner procrastination. I modernize it slightly because our time pieces have minutes. In the ancient times, this exercise did not do its calculations down to minutes. This exercise is usefully repeated during the quarters of the year at its cardinal points. A whole year can pass without us meeting any of our goals. So, this exercise was proposed for a “review of our year so far†on the solstices and equinoxes. It is a assessment. Some find it sobering. A few are frightened by it. But it is just a unit conversion from years to minutes.
Exercise One: thinking about family history and those around you, write down an estimate of how many years you realistically expect to live. Now, subtract your current age from that number. This gives you an estimate of how many
years you have left to live. We don’t need to be real exact here. So, the next step is multiply the number of years you have left to live by 365. That gives you an estimate of how many days you have left. At this point, some may begin to feel the real “bite†of this exercise.. In any case, take that last number and multiply it by 24. That gives you how many hours you have left to live. Some really become uncomfortable at this point. But one strategy in philosophy is to meditate on death. And in withdrawing the life out of that worldly form of madness that lives our lives, instead of us, and consumes us – in transforming the psyche so that we move from that form of madness that constitutes our false sense of self to the divine madness where we strive for our true self, we are “dying before we die†as philosophy advises us to do. It is a process of dying and rebirth. It is a process called in the Mysteries theosis (deification). So don’t let
the discomfort that may arise from this exercise deter you. If this exercise can deter you, everything in life will deter you. So, to continue, take that last number and multiply it by 60. That gives you how many minutes you have left to live, again, on estimate. Let the effect of this exercise have its hold over you. You may find a new inner ability to begin to set your affairs in order just like any other terminal person (yes, we are all in a terminal state). Of course, its effect will wear off. But if you repeat it at the cardinal points of the year, it can be renewed. Some keep a journal setting out goals for the coming quarter and a review of what was done and what was left undone. A periodic renewal of the sense that we do not have all the time in the world, and in fact, that our time is running out helps us generate the inner force – the Eros – to begin the vertical ascent and return to the hyperouranos that is where the gods live and is our
original home, according to the Mysteries and Plato.
The second exercise, practiced by Pythagoras, Cato the Elder, Cicero, Seneca, and others, is the evening review. This exercise has a beginning phase, and then, a more developed phase. Before retiring, each night (preferably before the evening prayers at the Lararium), one tries to recall in as great a detail as possible one’s thoughts, emotions, comments, and actions throughout the day – IN REVERSE ORDER! At first, you may notice you cannot remember everything. This is normal so don’t panic (some do). But you should also note that these gaps often indicate the times “you were not thereâ€. These are often the times of day where the world’s inner hold upon you was so strong that it was living you instead of you being there as the center of your life. As time passes and this exercise is repeated nightly, you will gradually be able to recall more and more and in greater detail.
Eventually, you will get to a point where you will be able to recall, for example, the aches, pains, yawns and itches you had sitting at the breakfast table or you computer while checking email. This exercise is done in reverse for a reason. If you replay your life that day forward, the forward moving narrative of self-justification wants to kick in. And, you may discover that the forward-moving narrative of self-justification creates a false memory in that what it says happened either did not happen in the way it tells it or it did not happen at all. This can be a shock when first encountered but is also something normal that happens in the course of doing this exercise. So, it is very important to recall in as great a detail as possible one’s day in reverse. The forward-moving “rationality†that “justifies†everything about us and everything within us is blocked and hampered by having the review in reverse. In the beginning, and later at the
more advanced phase, the first part of this exercise in daily review is just to recall the events in reverse. Do not comment or judge. Just recall. Later, after some skill and proficiency in this part of the exercise is gained, a second concluding part is added. This is to ask yourself what did you do today that was dishonorable, what did you do that was honorable, what did you do today that was valuable, and what did you do today that was not valuable.
It should be noticed that the questions about what we did today that was dishonorable, honorable, valuable, and not valuable is related to the prior exercise on the time we have left. But the question may arise, in what manner do we set our affairs in order and how do we know whether what we did today was honorable, dishonorable, valuable, or not valuable?
The short answer is we all carry, according to Pythagoras and Plato, a residual knowledge of that divine realm we fell from. This is syneidesis (“conscienceâ€). The Roman Stoic philosopher, Seneca, also says that this review is a review of conscience as our inner guide back to the divine and which is the compass of our Eros. This conscientia (conscience) is part of our Genius (if male) or Juno (if female). This is why this exercise is recommended to be done just before evening prayers at the Lararium. But a close friend of Seneca was the Cynic philosopher Demetrius. We should note that ancient Cynics were nothing like what our modern word “cynic†means. The ancient Cynics were a Socratic school (the legacy of Socrates became several schools of philosophy besides the Academic school of Plato) that in their transformative spiritual quest focused on the hypocritical features of ancient society. They engaged in
“street theatre†pointing out the vanities of the ancient social order. In fact, some New Testament scholars believe that the Jesus of the Christians either had to be trained in Cynic philosophy, or alternatively, much of what is attributed to him as what he said and did (especially the parables) was put into his month by later Christians because the actions, sayings, and parables attributed (whether he really did and said these things or not) to him closely match the tactics of the Cynic school of philosophy at Gadara. Gadara is about five kilometers from Nazareth in Galilee. We return to Seneca’s close Cynic friend, Demetrius. Here is the advice Demetrius gave on how to set your affairs in order, and thus, have a guide to use in the questions that follow the evening review. I shall interject a couple of comments that are part of the context provided by Seneca but not in the quote itself followed by ASR. Demetrius the Cynic teaches that the
essential rules of life for a philosopher are-
The soul that can scorn all accidents of fortune, that can rise superior to fears, that does not freely covet boundless wealth, but has learned to seek its riches from itself; the soul [because of its purified state due to philosophical askesis, ASR] that can cast out all dread of men and gods, and knows that it has not much to fear from man and nothing to fear from the God [for the gods bestow only good even when they punish, in that they always admonish and teach the path to the Good, ASR]; that despising all those things which, while they enrich life, harass life, can rise to the height of seeing that death is not the source of any evil, but the end of many; the soul that can dedicate itself to virtue, and think that every path to which she is called is smooth; that, social creature that it is and born for the common good, views the world as the universal home of humankind, that can bare its
conscience to the gods, and respecting itself more than all others, always lives as if in the sight of men – such a soul, remote from storms, stands on solid ground beneath a blue sky, and has attained to perfect knowledge of what is useful and essential. All other matters are but the diversions of a leisure hour.(Seneca, De beneficiis, 7.1.7)
Demetrius teaches that the whole of philosophy is ponos (work) and askesis (discipline) of the psyche.
The third exercise is enstasis and hesychia. Enstasis is the exact Greek equivalent of the Sanskrit concept of samadhi. It is a practice of concentrative meditative stabilization. It is also known as hesychia. Hesychia is the practice of inner silence. Hesychia counteracts two ways we lose inner force and misspend Eros: the process of inner self-justifying discussed above and the closely related process of inner gossiping discussed next.
Another way we lose inner force – misspend our Eros – is our constant inner gossiping. We tend to think gossip is something we indulge in outwardly with others but this is only a small fraction of it. These are really occasions where your inner gossiping and my inner gossiping join each other. But most of the time and for the most part, almost all gossiping is our
constant inner gossiping. It usually runs in tandem with our inner self-justifying and that is why it is closely related to it. The philosophical exercise of enstasis and hesychia helps to counteract this inner noise and static that we spend too much of ourselves in.
There are other ways we lose force but these three are three of the puppet strings that bind us in that realm of deceptive appearances, the realm of doxa, which is the madness of the world disguised as sanity because it is the familiar, the routine, and quotidian.
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Tribunus Plebis Fl. Galerius Aurelianus s.p.d.
I emailed this draft to my cousin, Appius Galerius Aurelianus, the acting Duty Tribune for the month of August two days ago. I do not know why he has not posted it to the ML but it may be due to my problems with Yahoo or he may be experiencing problems of which I am now aware. After I received permission from Consul Severus, I asked that he post it to the ML and other appropriate lists.
Regardless, I did not wish to keep this information from the People of Nova Roma any longer.
Following the initial voting in July, there was some vigorous discussion in the Senate about whether some items should have been listed as passing or failing. There was an additional delay because of my having attended the NR Conventus here in my provincial capital at the same time.
I would like to thank Senator Scholastica for her grammatical and spelling suggestions.
Valete.
-----Original Message-----
From: Patrick Owen <brotherpaganus@...>
To: brotherpaganus@...
Cc: galerius_of_rome@...; padruigtheuncle@...
Sent: Sun, Aug 16, 2009 6:08 pm
Subject: Re: [SenatusRomanus] Final Draft of the Results of the July Senate Session
Fl. Galerius Aurelianus Omnibus sal.
Subject: Official Results of July Senate Meeting
Tribunus Plebis Flavius Galerius Aurelianus Quiritibus SPD
Salvete citizens of Nova Roma!
The Senate has finished its latest session and the votes have been tallied as follows:
The contio (after being continued) ended at sunset in Rome (17.00 hrs CET) on 13 Jul. 2762. Voting began on the Agenda at the second hour at 06.45 hrs CET on 14 Jul. 2762 and concluded at 17.00 hrs CET on 18 Jul. 2762.
The following (XXV) senators cast votes in time, and referred to below by the initials:
MCC-M. Curiatius Complutensis
MIS-M. Iulius Severus
MMPH-M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus
CCS-C. Curius Saturninus
CFBQ-Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus
TIS-Titus Iulius Sabinus
PUSV-P. Ullerius Stephanus Venator
FGA-Flavius Galerius Aurelianus
GEC-Gaius Equitius Cato
MLA-Marcus Lucretius Agricola
MIP-Marcus Iulius Perusianus
PMA-Publius Memmius Albucius
QSP-Quintus Suetonius Paulinus
GEM-Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
TGP-Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
LCSF-Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
MHM-Marca Hortensia Maior
QFM-Quintus Fabius Maximus
ATS-A. Tullia Scholastica
DIP-Decius Iunius Palladius Invi
ctus
GVA-Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa
CFBM-Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus
GIC-Gnaeus Iulius Caesar
CFD-Caius Flavius Diocletianus
EIL-Equestria Iunia Laeca
The following Senator did not cast a vote but his absence has been adequately explained in line with the Senatus Consultum defining a quorum and the LEX OCTAVIA DE SENATORIBUS:
MMA-M. Minucius Audens
The following Senators did not cast a vote, and their absence was not announced or justified in line with the Senatus Consultum defining a quorum and the LEX OCTAVIA DE SENATORIBUS:
ATMC-A. Tullius Marcellus Cato [Tribune's Note: announced his resignation from the Senate when the voting ended.]
ECF- Em Curia Finnica
AMA-Am. Moravia Aurelia
FAC-Fr. Apulus Caesar
MAM-M. Arminius Maior
GMM-C. Marius Merullus
"VTI ROGAS" indicates a vote in favor of an item,
"ANTIQVO" is a vote against,
"ABSTINEO" is an open abstention
RELATIO
Quod bonum felixque sit populo Romano Quiritium, referimos ad vos, Patres et Matres conscriptos:
Item I: Presentation of the report of the consular Quaestores on the MMP.
The Senate authorizes spending of up to $1,000 [USD] to conduct the necessary consultations with a lawyer?
ITEM I FAILS: XX ANTIQVO * I VTI ROGAS * II ABSTINEO
MCC: ANTIQVO. This expense is unnecessary.
MIS: ANTIQVO. I also believe this expense to be unnecessary.
MMPH: ANTIQVO. I'd like to know first what
a consultation would cost before approving some arbitrarily selected amount.
CCS: ANTIQVO. The report of quaestores showed what we all knew already: there is nothing wrong. Except, of course, that we have an incompetent Curule Aedile who has affected serious problem for NR by his panic actions.
CFBQ: ANTIQVO. The report has shown that there is no seriously wrong and that those things that might cause some questions are easily corrected by administrative measures.
TIS: ANTIQVO.
PUSV: ANTIQVO. The report on the MMP was presented as an incomplete accomplishment. It was supposed to have included information gathered before presentation, about a legal consult. I cannot approve an ex post facto fix. Nova Roma's involvement with the MMP is broken and we must extricate ourselves.
FGA: VTI ROGAS.
GEC: ANTIQVO. They were already instructed to seek counsel by this House and they did not. They should be given one month to comply with the orders of this House.
MLA: ANTIQVO.
MIP: AN
TIQVO.
PMA: ABSTINEO For the following formal points: 1/last a.d. III Kal Maias, I cast an "antiquo" vote on the need of an investigation on the MMP state of affairs. I still believe that there is no need for such inquiry; 2/the item voted in the April-May session had authorized the consular quaestores "to obtain legal advice from a qualified lawyer in the United States". The question of principle is no longer asked but the question of how much would be necessary for such a legal consultation which falls in the senate's field; [Tribune's Note: PMA did not put a 3/]; 4/a normal way would have been to request the Curia, in the eve of the year, to open a budget chapter for consular expenses, included consultations, and, according to the possible estimates asked to attorneys, to check whether this chapter is enough or not, and then ask the senate to re-adjust it. In the current situation, and regarding the previous steps of this matter, the senate would save time if It were given an estimate of such a legal consultation.
QSP: ANTIQVO. I agree with Senator Cato on this.
GEM: ANTIQVO.
TGP: ANTIQVO. I have to agree with Senator Palladius. The new Item one does nothing but muddy the water. The report of the consular Quaestor did not fulfill the mandate of this house. They were already supposed to engage an attorney and then report. If taking to a lawyer costs $1000 then should have so informed the Consuls and the issue co
uld have been addressed before they issued the report. This report is not finished.
LCSF: ANTIQVO. Another glaring example of the examples waving their imperium sticks and changing an agenda item mid-stream. We already have a senatus consulta stating an attorney in the US was supposed to be consulted. If Nova Roma was run like any not for profit corporation - the consuls would be fired for incompetence, breach of duty and being a poster child for the peter principle. Unfortunately, NR is not run like a not for profit corporation and instead we have another in the long list of mistakes, blunders and corporate mismanagement added to the growing list. If Donald Trump had a say in how Nova Roma's administrators - he would be uttering his phrase "You're FIRED" to the Consuls.
MHM: ANTIQVO. The curule aedile created another brouha-ha over nothing. I won't waste the taxpayers' money on expensive legal advice. We have a fiscal duty to our tax-paying citizens and can spend NR's funds in positive ways to benefit everyone.
QFM: ANTIQVO. Senator Iunius Palladius has summed this up succinctly. This new Item confuses the issue. The report I read by the Consul/Quaestor did not meet the SC qualifications as stated. They were to use an outside US attorney's advice and then issue a report. If a lawyer costs $1000 then they should have informed this to the Senate and the Consuls and the money be issued, advice sought and20then the report issued.
ATS: ABSTINEO.
DIP: ANTIQVO. This report is incomplete, I do not accept it. The Senate *already* directed the consules and their quaestores to seek legal advice. Do it and then submit a bill to us. This article changes nothing except confuse things. The Senate still expects that legal advice you were directed to get. Submit a bill to the senate when you are done.
GVA: ANTIQVO.
CFBM: ANTIQVO. We have at least two former lawyers in the senate. I see no reason for an external consultation. I am unconcerned with the incessant "cry wolf" of a few senatores.
GIC: ANTIQVO. The report is incomplete and the previous Senatus=2
0Consultum is clear regarding the direction for legal advice.
CFD: ANTQVO. Why should we set such a limit? Just stop when the $ 1000 are spent? Such a limit is senseless an might cause unnecessary confusion.
EIL: ANTIQVO. What is this amount based on? Have attorneys been contacted for estimates? Legal consultation for this matter should not cost this much. Many U.S. nonprofit attorneys charge nonprofits around $175 USD per hour. The consular quaestores supply the attorney with all the facts and support for, and against, the claims. Make sure they have all relevant links, files, concise explanations, etc. at the start to ensure that we pay for the shortest amount of time possible. They will charge for every minute of follow-up or weeding through nonessential information. The attorneys' expensive time should be spent reviewing the claims, doing independent research, and submitting a professional opinion.
Also make sure they are aware that this is an internal investigation only and not prompted by a donor or outside agency. And, that we are a small nonprofit with extremely low revenues. Some attorneys
are amenable to providing their services at a reduced rate in certain cases from time to time, or to get our business, may cap the time they will charge to just one or two hours even if the effort takes them a little longer.
Item II: Approval of the Budget for the Conventus Novae Romae Europa in Gallia and for the Conventus Novae Romae in the US in accordance with the decision of the Senatorial Committee.
II.1 The Senate authorizes spending up to $15 per attendee in accordance with the recommendations of the Senate Budget Committee?
ITEM II.1 FAILS: XII ANTIQVO * XII VTI ROGAS * I ABSTINEO
MCC: ANTIQVO.
MIS: VTI ROGAS.
MMPH: [ANTIQVO] While I appreciate the Committee's recommendation and the reasoning behind it, I don't think it goes far enough to contribute a fair portion for such events that benefit all of Nova Roma.
CCS: ANTIQVO. I see no reason to change our current procedure to this.
CFBQ: ANTIQVO. I became a member of the Committee too late to take part in a serious discussion, but I don't want to agree to a sum which could grow too much.
TIS: ANTIQVO.
PUSV: ITA
[VTI ROGAS]. This seems a very reasonable amount, the central treasury returning a full tax payment per attendee. Not a big reimbursement in light of current costs, but manageable in light of the organization's finances at present.
FGA: ANTIQVO.
GAC: VTI ROGAS.
MLA: VTI ROGAS.
MIP: ANTIQVO.
PMA: ABSTINEO. For the following formal reasons: 1/this question is no more relevant, for Gallia has officially informed the senate that it would not be able to organize the conventus Europaeus; 2/ the senate committees do not take decisions: the plenary senate does. The committees are to bring reports and proposals; 3/on the matter this conventus matter is significative of what we senators consider as important or not for Nova Roma. The conventus is, imho, one of the very few effective and working actions that our republic have created. A conventus is invaluable in terms of human relations between us. We should show the major interest that such events represent for Nova Roma, being ready to support them by a major financial input. Once again, I cannot but regret that we take the question from the wrong side, here, `hiding ourselves' behind the argument of budget capacities just because we have not anticipated to spend a higher sum for the conventus.For the future, the Patres must be conscious that a conventus in the ancient Roman Empire area costs more than a conventus outside, just because of the visits on sites and the t
ravels they need.n this view, the amounts proposed by the Budget Committee look totally out of phase with reality, or reflecting a will to lower the participation of NR central treasury on the `benefit' of the provinces or of external fundings. Such a policy would be imho an error: the Republic will be able to be sure keeping the control on such events as long as It will be able to be a significant granter.
QSP: VTI ROGAS.
GEM: VTI ROGAS.
TGP: VTI ROGAS. We have committees to discuss these types of items. The $300 amount was never discussed and should not be before this house. Two members took the time to vote and a few others took the time to discuss the issues. Why bother to do either if our recommendations are to be augmented by someone else choice.
LCSF: VTI ROGAS. I vote yes to both items.
MHM: ANTIQVO.
QFM: VTI ROGAS. $15.00 USD pp is more than fair. However, it appears that the committee concept is breaking down. Perhaps we should rethink this committee. Do we really need it, if people bypass it?
ATS: ANTIQVO. This is really a very token amount, and one I think should depend on local conditions, such as the cost of living in a given area where the Conventus is to be held.
DIP: ANTIQVO.
GVA: VTI ROGAS.
CFBM: ANTIQVO. My apologies to the Senate Budget Committee for not voicing my opinion within the co
mmittee in a timely manner but I am of the opinion that events can and should be fundraisers and should be self-sufficent. I believe there must ALWAYS be a strong religio element to ANY Nova Roma event--provincial or state level. Without that guarantee of a strong religio element to any event I am non-committal about financing them, and as I just mentioned I think events should be fund raisers and not financial liabilities.
GIC: VTI ROGAS.
CFD: ANTIQVO.
EIL: VTI ROGAS. Though with reservations since the two conventi are in the same item, and since conventus Gallia is only for this year. I agree with this amount for the US conventus, but not for the Europa conventus. The tax rate for the European provinces is much lower in many cases than the US rates. Furthermore, most of the European provinces either retain or ask to have returned 50% of their provincial revenues. Whereas in the US, only one province retains half its taxes. Paying this amount for the European conventus could feasibly mean that only a fraction, if any, of their tax revenues goes towards Nova Roma's operating expenses, and nothing towards allocations. This cannot be sustained in the future as continuing this practice could lead to the European provinces as having a negative financial affect on this organization. I also agree with Senator Modianus that conventi should be used for fundraising, or at a minimum, ask attendees to put in a donation to cover some of the cost. It20should also be used as an opportunity to bring in new citizens (and future revenues). Alternatively, we could hold fundraisers for the purpose of funding conventi, set up a conventi fund, ask for citizen donations, sponsors, or considerably raise our tax rates for certain provinces to offset the costs.
II.2 or the Senate autohorizes to grant no more than $ 300 per each Conventus?
ITEM II.2 FAILS: XII ANTIQVO * X VTI ROGAS * III ABSTINEO
MCC: VTI ROGAS.
MIS: ANTIQVO.
MMPH: ADSENTIOR VTI ROGAS. This amount, too, is not very realistic if compared to the cost of running a Conventus. It certainly is not if we wish our Conventus to one day attract others whom we might then be able to recruit as Citizens. But with our current financial assets to is a reasonable amount, if only a token amount.
CCS: VTI ROGAS. The sum is in line with our financial capabilities and gives a good amount of money to cover running costs.
CFBQ: VTI ROGAS. My Aedilian Cohors and I organized the first Conventus in Europe without any economical support although the organizers lived in Scandinavia and the Conventus was held in Belgium, with a last minute local assistance. With that experience this sum should be able to give a contribution and the treasury be able to handle this sum and above all it can't grow.
TIS: ABSTINEO.
PUSV: ANTIQVO. If a Conventus is successful and draws 100 Nova Romans, the benefit should be US
$1500.00. If it is less successful and draws only 10, then US $150.00.
FGA: VTI ROGAS.
GEC: ANTIQVO.
MLA: ANTIQVO.
MIP: ABSTINEO.
PMA: ABSTINEO [Tribune's Note: PMA did not specify which portion of Item II he abstained from; so I am making the presumption that he meant both].
QSP: ANTIQVO. They are few and far between and we could do a little better than that.
GEM: ANTIQVO.
TGP: ANTIQVO on $300.
LCSF: VTI ROGAS.
MHM: VTI ROGAS. A Conventus will be the fulcrum to take NR off the net and into reality. We need to spend the funds proportionate to our budget. But we also will need an itemized list of expenses from organizers to do this effectively.
QFM: ANTIQVO on $300.
ATS: ANTIQVO. Again, a fixed amount is not viable as the need will depend on conditions at the time and place selected. This would perhaps be better as a minimum amount, but not a maximum one. Secondly, as has been noted, the Conventus in Gallia has unfortunately been cancelled, so this is somewhat moot for such purposes this year. I do support grants for these purposes; the Conventús (fourth declension plural, with a long final u) are wonderful opportunities for us to meet one another, and endeavors worthy of our support. The number of attendees at any Conventus will depend on a number of factors quite beyond the control of the organizers
, so I deem it unfair to penalize them for such things as fluctuation in the world or national economy/ies or inability to get vacation time, etc. Some costs related to a Conventus are fixed; if one has 30 people on a bus to some site or one has three, the cost is the same unless the trip is cancelled (and then there might be a cancellation fee). Expecting a hundred people at a Conventus is pure fiction when we cannot even get half a dozen to attend a dinner meeting held in an area which has a large number of citizens.
DIP: VTI ROGAS.
GVA: VTI ROGAS.
CFBM: ANTIQVO.
GIC: ANTIQVO.
CFD: VTI ROGAS.
EIL: ANTIQVO.
Item III: Approval of the Lex Curiatia Iulia de institutis publicis religiosis passed by the Comitia Centuriata.
By this Lex Curiatia Iulia de institutis publicis religiosis the Constitution, Article VI, on Public Religious Institutions, is hereby replaced by the following Article VI.
A. The Religio Romana, defined as the traditional worship of the Gods and Goddesses of Rome, shall be the official religion of Nova Roma.
B. The sacerdotal responsibilities for the State Religion of Nova Roma shall be invested primarily into the Collegium Pontificum and the Collegium Augurum.
1. The Collegium Pontificum shall consist of the Rex and Regina Sacrorum, the Flamens, Flaminicas, Pontifices, and the Sacerdotes Vestales, co-opted by the Collegium Pontificum itself, under its own governing
rules. The Collegium Pontificum shall be responsible for the conduct and administration of all public religious ceremonies other than those rites assigned to the Augurs. To that purpose, the Collegium Pontificum may create sacerdotal offices, sodalitates, and collegia.
2. The Collegium Augurum shall consist of all public Augurs who are co-opted by the Collegium Augurum itself, under its own governing rules. The individual members of the Collegium Augurum shall be responsible for instructing and advising curule magistrates on performing auspicia on behalf of Nova Roma. In other religious ceremonies the Augures shall perform their traditional responsibilities. The Collegium Augurum may create sacerdotal offices and sodalitates that are specifically related to the conduct and administration of its responsibilities.
C. Additional sacerdotal collegia may be instituted and their rules set by the Collegium Pontificum, with the approval of the Comitia Centuriata.
ITEM III FAILS (because it did not receive the vote of 2/3 of the entire Senate necessary for any amendment of the NR Constitution):
VII ANTIQVO * XIIII VTI ROGAS * IIII ABSTINEO.
MCC: VTI ROGAS.
MIS: VTI ROGAS.
MMPH: ADSENTIOR VTI ROGAS. This measure was approved by members of the Collegium Pontificum. It is a necessary amendment that eliminates an ahistorical, hierarchial
structure of our religious institutions and will allow the Summa Quattuor Collegia to develop into an historical form. The Collegium Pontificum20asked for this amendment in order that it be able to carry out the reforms asked of it. This was understood by the Quirites and thus was it approved by the Comitia Centuriata. This Senate ought now to ratify what is a necessary change.
CCS: VTI ROGAS.
CFBQ: VTI ROGAS.
TIS: VTI ROGAS.
PUSV: ANTIQVO. Upon further reflection, I would like to see this law rewritten in simpler terms, with definitions of just what "traditional" practices are. Though I am familiar with the Religio, Nova et Antiqua, as an outsider I'd like to know better what I have bound myself to safeguard.
FGA: VTI ROGAS.
GEC: ANTIQVO. I state again my objections: "...defined as the traditional ... 1. The Collegium Pontificum shall consist of the Rex and Regina Sacrorum, the Flamens, Flaminicas, Pontifices, and the Sacerdotes Vestales, co-opted by the Collegium Pontificum itself, under its own governing rules." (A) The insertion of the words "defined as the traditional" is unnecessary and not terribly useful until we have in written form a precise description of what the "traditional" worship actually consists of. In referring to "the worship of the Gods and goddesses of ancient Rome", the Constitution already makes it clear Who is being worshiped. By inserting the word "traditional" you are assuming a body of information (the description of this "traditional" worship) that does not currently exist in our Respublica. This is an amendment to the Constitution, not s
imply a law, so every time we seek to change the wording it should be either as broad as possible or as specific as possible. This is neither, and so serves no useful purpose. (B) Legally the word "shall" implies an imperative; we do not have a Rex and Regina Sacrorum, so adopting this as it stands would mean that we cannot actually have a Collegium Pontificum until such time as we do have a Rex and Regina Sacrorum. I would suggest amending it to something like "shall contain such priestly offices as flamens, pontifices, and the sacerdotes Vestales; other priestly offices may be added as deemed appropriate by adoption of a decretum issued by the Collegium Pontificum." "Shall" is used to denote a condition precedent. The existence of a condition precedent means that a person, action, or other thing is required to comply with a stated condition as a prerequisite to having full legitimacy. The condition may be stated in a variety of ways, but typically the condition requires the person, action, or other thing to: (1) meet certain stated conditions; (2) possess certain stated characteristics; or (3) consist of certain stated components. (C) The proper noun "Flaminica" is specifically used in ancient sources to refer only to the wife of the Flamen Dialis; its use here may be inappropriate. It can be understood that the words "flamens", "pontifices", "augurs", and "sacerdotes" may refer to individuals of either sex in those offices. None of these titles should be capitalized unless they are r
eferring to a specific individual.
MLA: VTI ROGAS.
MIP: VTI ROGAS.
PMA: ABSTINEO. For the sentence: "The Collegium Pontificum shall be responsible for the conduct and administration of all public religious ceremonies other than those rites assigned to the Augurs." could lead us to difficulties when ordinary magistrates are, in their normal duties, brought to conduct themselves such ceremonies. I recommend that this passage be reviewed.
QSP: ABSTINEO.
GEM: VTI ROGAS.
TGP: ANTIQVO.
CSF: ANTIQVO. A change like this also needs an attorney to review it - considering that Nova Roma is not incorporated as a religious based institution - but as a public benefit institution.
MHM: VTI ROGAS. The Quirites passed this, it permits the CP flexibility.
QFM: ANTIQVO. I voted against it in our College. I believe then as I do now, it needs to be re written, with greater use of qualifiers. Right now these are too confusing. I am tired of confusing laws. Aren't you?
ATS: VTI ROGAS. I share some concerns expressed by others regarding non-cultores, inter alia, but will hope for the best on these points.
DIP: ABSTINEO. I have listened and listened to the debate about this issue, mainly over the word `traditional' and `shall'. The opposition to the first word doesn't convince me at all, it is a tempest in a teapot. We know what traditional me
ans, even if the College hasn't officially "defined" it. There have been concerns raised about the wording regarding the college of augurs and whether it can be used to prevent non cultores from holding magistracies if they are unwilling to perform auguries. I don't find this entirely convincing but I understand the concerns and will abstain for now.
GVA: ANTIQVO.
CFBM: VTI ROGAS.
GIC: ANTIQVO.
CFD: ABSTINEO.
EIL: VTI ROGAS.
Item IV: Approval of the Lex Curiatia Iulia de ratione comitiorum centuriatorum passed by the Comitia Centuriata:
By this Lex Curiatia Iulia de ratione comitiorum centuriatorum is amended the Lex Fabia de ratione comitiorum centuriatorum 5. B which reads:
In the case of a magisterial election, voting shall be sequential.
1. A century from the first class shall be selected by lot by the diribitores to vote first. No century containing only one member shall be selected for this purpose. For the first 48 hours of the voting period only members of that century shall be permitted to vote.
2. Twenty-four (24) hours after the beginning of the voting period, the diribitores shall tally the votes of all those who have voted so far according to the method set out in A.1 above, and shall announce the result no later than 48 hours after the beginning of the voting period.
3. Forty-eight (48) hours after the beginning of the voting period, the rest of the centuries in the first class
shall be permitted to vote; members of the century selected under B.1 above who have not yet voted shall still be permitted to vote.
4. Ninety-six (96) hours after the beginning of the voting period, the diribitores shall tally the votes of all those who have voted so far according to the method set out in A.1 above, and shall announce the results no later than 120 hours after the beginning of the voting period.
5. One hundred twenty (120) hours after the beginning of the voting period, everyone who is eligible to vote but has not yet done so shall be permitted to vote. All voting shall cease no less than 216 hours after the beginning of the voting period.
The Lex Fabia de ratione comitiorum centuriatorum 5.B is hereby amended as follows:
5.B: In the case of magisterial elections, the voting period shall last no fewer than 192 hours (8 days), with all centuries casting their votes concurrently. Reports of the voting results shall be announced sequentially.
1. The Diribitores shall select by lot one century from among the first class centuries to serve as the Centuria Praerogativa. No century containing only one member shall be selected for this purpose.
2.Within forty-eight (48) hours after the beginning of the voting period, the Diribitores shall tally the votes of all those who have cast votes thus far in the Centuria Praerogativa, and shall announce those results no later than 48 hours after the beginning of the voting period.
3. Ninety-six (96) hours after the=2
0beginning of the voting period, the Diribitores shall tally the votes of all those who have voted thus far, and shall announce the results of only the first class centuries no later than 120 hours after the beginning of the voting period.
4. All voting shall cease after no less than 192 hours (8 days) have past and no more than 216 hours (9 days) have past after the beginning of the voting period. The Diribitores shall then tally all votes cast and within 48 hours later report the results solely to the presiding magistrate and to his or her colleague as per 3.F.
ITEM IV PASSES: III ANTIQVO * XXI VTI ROGAS * I ABSTINEO
MCC: VTI ROGAS.
MIS: VTI ROGAS.
MMPH: ADSENTIOR VTI ROGAS. This measure simplifies voting procedures so that they shall be less confusing to voters, and thus prevent problems as we've seen in recent years. At the same time it allows us to retain all augural procedures as our tradition has followed in recent years.
CCS: VTI ROGAS.
CFBQ: VTI ROGAS.
TIS: VTI ROGAS.
PUSV: ITA [VTI ROGAS]. As both a Custos Emeritus and Diribitor Emeritus, I think this a commonsense adjustment of our voting procedure.
FGA: VTI ROGAS.
GEC: VTI ROGAS.
MLA: VTI ROGAS.
MIP: ABSTINEO.
PMA: VTI ROGAS.
QSP: VTI ROGAS.
GEM: VTI ROGAS.
TGP: VTI ROGAS.
LCSF: ANTIQVO.
MHM: VTI ROGAS
.
QFM: ANTQVO. We keep adding snippets to our voting laws. Why can't we simply tear apart the whole thing and rewrite it from scratch? As a writer of rules I know from past experience adding rules to existing rules causes other rules to change meanings or be confusing for interpretation.
ATS: ANTIQVO. I prefer the present, more Roman, system, though clearly we must do more to educate the voters and make other changes, such as increase the number of diribitores and lengthen the portion of the voting period devoted to those other than the first-class centuries. Too many of our election officials in particular see fit to disappear, especially when they are most needed.
DIP: VTI ROGAS. A much needed simplification of our voting system.
GVA: VTI ROGAS.
CFBM: VTI ROGAS.
GIC: VTI ROGAS.
CFD: VTI ROGAS.
EIL: VTI ROGAS.
Item V: Approval of the Lex Curiatia Iulia de tributo virginum vestalium passed by the Comitia Centuriata
By this Lex Curiatia Iulia de tributo virginum Vestalium is amended the Lex Apula de assiduis et capite censis, pars II, by the addition of paragraph II.B, which is:
II.B: Those appointed as Vestal Virgins by the Collegium Pontificum shall be exempt from paying the annual tax and shall retain their status as Assidui so long as they remain Vestal Virgins. No special conditions shall be placed on Vestal Virgins with regard to their p
lacement in centuries and tribes or upon their ability to run for or hold office.
ITEM V PASSES: III ANTIQVO * XX VTI ROGAS * II ABSTINEO
MCC: VTI ROGAS.
MIS: VTI ROGAS.
MMPH: ADSENTIOR VTI ROGAS. This exemption for the Vestal Virgines is another measure that I, as Pontifex Maximus, have asked the Quirites to grant. I thank the Comitia Centuriata for approving the measure. This is an essential sacerdotal office, one that is central to the religio Romana that we are building for Nova Roma. Where historically the Vestales were paid a stipend by the State; in comparison this exemption from the tributa is only a gesture. But it does show that Nova Roma places special value on the services that these women will provide to benefit all of our Quirites.
CCS: VTI ROGAS.
CFBQ: VTI ROGAS.
TIS: VTI ROGAS.
PUSV: ITA [VTI ROGAS]. I do believe that the Vestals should have some special privileges and protections.
FGA: VTI ROGAS.
GEC: VTI ROGAS.
MLA: VTI ROGAS.
MIP: ABSTINEO.
PMA: ABSTINEO. I have personally voted `antiquo' on the principle of an exemption, for the grounds that I have already expressed, but do not wish to oppose the People's vote in a matter where our fundamental law is not at stake.
QSP: VTI ROGAS.
GEM: VTI ROGAS.
TGP: VTI ROGAS.
LCSF: ANTIQVO. To grant tax exemption to ANYONE - when NR=2
0has been declining in revenue every single year is a gross disregard to the financial health of the organization. This exemption should be sought once Nova Roma's tax roles have expanded for at least a 3 year straight period.
MHM: VTI ROGAS. This is the start the Vestals are essential to Nova Roma and should receive the highest honours.
QFM: ANTIQVO. I agree that we need incentives to get vestals into service for the Goddess. But, an exception goes against everything Flavius Vedius wished in his tax concept. This fundamental concept is that if you want to take part of Nova Roma's structure you must be willing to support Her by paying dues. Perhaps reasonability for the Vestal dues should fall to the Pontifix Maximus, after all he holds manus over them, he is the Paterfamilias for the group. It is something to think about.
ATS: VTI ROGAS.
DIP: VTI ROGAS. I have no objection to the vestals receiving this exemption, though we have to be pretty careful about exemptions. We don't have much money coming in to begin with.
GVA: VTI ROGAS.
CFBM: VTI ROGAS.
GIC: ANTIQVO. I don't support any exemptions at this stage - given our finances and the pitiful amount involved.
CFD: VTI ROGAS.
EIL: VTI ROGAS.
========
Vale.
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Fl. Galerius Aurelianus Omnibus sal.
Subject: Official Results of July Senate Meeting
Tribunus Plebis Flavius Galerius Aurelianus Quiritibus SPD
Salvete citizens of Nova Roma!
The Senate has finished its latest session and the votes have been tallied as
follows:
The contio (after being continued) ended at sunset in Rome (17.00 hrs CET) on 13
Jul. 2762. Voting began on the Agenda at the second hour at 06.45 hrs CET on 14
Jul. 2762 and concluded at 17.00 hrs CET on 18 Jul. 2762.
The following (XXV) senators cast votes in time, and referred to below by the
initials:
MCC-M. Curiatius Complutensis
MIS-M. Iulius Severus
MMPH-M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus
CCS-C. Curius Saturninus
CFBQ-Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus
TIS-Titus Iulius Sabinus
PUSV-P. Ullerius Stephanus Venator
FGA-Flavius Galerius Aurelianus
GEC-Gaius Equitius Cato
MLA-Marcus Lucretius Agricola
MIP-Marcus Iulius Perusianus
PMA-Publius Memmius Albucius
QSP-Quintus Suetonius Paulinus
GEM-Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
TGP-Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
LCSF-Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
MHM-Marca Hortensia Maior
QFM-Quintus Fabius Maximus
ATS-A. Tullia Scholastica
DIP-Decius Iunius Palladius Invi ctus
GVA-Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa
CFBM-Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus
GIC-Gnaeus Iulius Caesar
CFD-Caius Flavius Diocletianus
EIL-Equestria Iunia Laeca
The following Senator did not cast a vote but his absence has been adequately
explained in line with the Senatus Consultum defining a quorum and the LEX
OCTAVIA DE SENATORIBUS:
MMA-M. Minucius Audens
The following Senators did not cast a vote, and their absence was not announced
or justified in line with the Senatus Consultum defining a quorum and the LEX
OCTAVIA DE SENATORIBUS:
ATMC-A. Tullius Marcellus Cato [Tribune's Note: announced his resignation from
the Senate when the voting ended.]
ECF- Em Curia Finnica
AMA-Am. Moravia Aurelia
FAC-Fr. Apulus Caesar
MAM-M. Arminius Maior
GMM-C. Marius Merullus
"VTI ROGAS" indicates a vote in favor of an item,
"ANTIQVO" is a vote against,
"ABSTINEO" is an open abstention
RELATIO
Quod bonum felixque sit populo Romano Quiritium, referimos ad vos, Patres et
Matres conscriptos:
Item I: Presentation of the report of the consular Quaestores on the MMP.
The Senate authorizes spending of up to $1,000 [USD] to conduct the necessary
consultations with a lawyer?
ITEM I FAILS: XX ANTIQVO * I VTI ROGAS * II ABSTINEO
MCC: ANTIQVO. This expense is unnecessary.
MIS: ANTIQVO. I also believe this expense to be unnecessary.
MMPH: ANTIQVO. I'd like to know first what a consultation would cost before
approving some arbitrarily selected amount.
CCS: ANTIQVO. The report of quaestores showed what we all knew already: there
is nothing wrong. Except, of course, that we have an incompetent Curule Aedile
who has affected serious problem for NR by his panic actions.
CFBQ: ANTIQVO. The report has shown that there is no seriously wrong and that
those things that might cause some questions are easily corrected by
administrative measures.
TIS: ANTIQVO.
PUSV: ANTIQVO. The report on the MMP was presented as an incomplete
accomplishment. It was supposed to have included information gathered before
presentation, about a legal consult. I cannot approve an ex post facto fix. Nova
Roma's involvement with the MMP is broken and we must extricate ourselves.
FGA: VTI ROGAS.
GEC: ANTIQVO. They were already instructed to seek counsel by this House and
they did not. They should be given one month to comply with the orders of this
House.
MLA: ANTIQVO.
MIP: AN TIQVO.
PMA: ABSTINEO For the following formal points: 1/last a.d. III Kal Maias, I
cast an "antiquo" vote on the need of an investigation on the MMP state of
affairs. I still believe that there is no need for such inquiry; 2/the item
voted in the April-May session had authorized the consular quaestores "to obtain
legal advice from a qualified lawyer in the United States". The question of
principle is no longer asked but the question of how much would be necessary for
such a legal consultation which falls in the senate's field; [Tribune's Note:
PMA did not put a 3/]; 4/a normal way would have been to request the Curia, in
the eve of the year, to open a budget chapter for consular expenses, included
consultations, and, according to the possible estimates asked to attorneys, to
check whether this chapter is enough or not, and then ask the senate to
re-adjust it. In the current situation, and regarding the previous steps of
this matter, the senate would save time if It were given an estimate of such a
legal consultation.
QSP: ANTIQVO. I agree with Senator Cato on this.
GEM: ANTIQVO.
TGP: ANTIQVO. I have to agree with Senator Palladius. The new Item one does
nothing but muddy the water. The report of the consular Quaestor did not fulfill
the mandate of this house. They were already supposed to engage an attorney and
then report. If taking to a lawyer costs $1000 then should have so informed the
Consuls and the issue co uld have been addressed before they issued the report.
This report is not finished.
LCSF: ANTIQVO. Another glaring example of the examples waving their imperium
sticks and changing an agenda item mid-stream. We already have a senatus
consulta stating an attorney in the US was supposed to be consulted. If Nova
Roma was run like any not for profit corporation - the consuls would be fired
for incompetence, breach of duty and being a poster child for the peter
principle. Unfortunately, NR is not run like a not for profit corporation and
instead we have another in the long list of mistakes, blunders and corporate
mismanagement added to the growing list. If Donald Trump had a say in how Nova
Roma's administrators - he would be uttering his phrase "You're FIRED" to the
Consuls.
MHM: ANTIQVO. The curule aedile created another brouha-ha over nothing. I
won't waste the taxpayers' money on expensive legal advice. We have a fiscal
duty to our tax-paying citizens and can spend NR's funds in positive ways to
benefit everyone.
QFM: ANTIQVO. Senator Iunius Palladius has summed this up succinctly. This new
Item confuses the issue. The report I read by the Consul/Quaestor did not meet
the SC qualifications as stated. They were to use an outside US attorney's
advice and then issue a report. If a lawyer costs $1000 then they should have
informed this to the Senate and the Consuls and the money be issued, advice
sought and20then the report issued.
ATS: ABSTINEO.
DIP: ANTIQVO. This report is incomplete, I do not accept it. The Senate
*already* directed the consules and their quaestores to seek legal advice. Do it
and then submit a bill to us. This article changes nothing except confuse
things. The Senate still expects that legal advice you were directed to get.
Submit a bill to the senate when you are done.
GVA: ANTIQVO.
CFBM: ANTIQVO. We have at least two former lawyers in the senate. I see no
reason for an external consultation. I am unconcerned with the incessant "cry
wolf" of a few senatores.
GIC: ANTIQVO. The report is incomplete and the previous Senatus=2 0Consultum
is clear regarding the direction for legal advice.
CFD: ANTQVO. Why should we set such a limit? Just stop when the $ 1000 are
spent? Such a limit is senseless an might cause unnecessary confusion.
EIL: ANTIQVO. What is this amount based on? Have attorneys been contacted for
estimates? Legal consultation for this matter should not cost this much. Many
U.S. nonprofit attorneys charge nonprofits around $175 USD per hour. The
consular quaestores supply the attorney with all the facts and support for, and
against, the claims. Make sure they have all relevant links, files, concise
explanations, etc. at the start to ensure that we pay for the shortest amount of
time possible. They will charge for every minute of follow-up or weeding through
nonessential information. The attorneys' expensive time should be spent
reviewing the claims, doing independent research, and submitting a professional
opinion.
Also make sure they are aware that this is an internal investigation only and
not prompted by a donor or outside agency. And, that we are a small nonprofit
with extremely low revenues. Some attorneys are amenable to providing their
services at a reduced rate in certain cases from time to time, or to get our
business, may cap the time they will charge to just one or two hours even if the
effort takes them a little longer.
Item II: Approval of the Budget for the Conventus Novae Romae Europa in Gallia
and for the Conventus Novae Romae in the US in accordance with the decision of
the Senatorial Committee.
II.1 The Senate authorizes spending up to $15 per attendee in accordance with
the recommendations of the Senate Budget Committee?
ITEM II.1 FAILS: XII ANTIQVO * XII VTI ROGAS * I ABSTINEO
MCC: ANTIQVO.
MIS: VTI ROGAS.
MMPH: [ANTIQVO] While I appreciate the Committee's recommendation and the
reasoning behind it, I don't think it goes far enough to contribute a fair
portion for such events that benefit all of Nova Roma.
CCS: ANTIQVO. I see no reason to change our current procedure to this.
CFBQ: ANTIQVO. I became a member of the Committee too late to take part in a
serious discussion, but I don't want to agree to a sum which could grow too
much.
TIS: ANTIQVO.
PUSV: ITA [VTI ROGAS]. This seems a very reasonable amount, the central
treasury returning a full tax payment per attendee. Not a big reimbursement in
light of current costs, but manageable in light of the organization' s finances
at present.
FGA: ANTIQVO.
GAC: VTI ROGAS.
MLA: VTI ROGAS.
MIP: ANTIQVO.
PMA: ABSTINEO. For the following formal reasons: 1/this question is no more
relevant, for Gallia has officially informed the senate that it would not be
able to organize the conventus Europaeus; 2/ the senate committees do not take
decisions: the plenary senate does. The committees are to bring reports and
proposals; 3/on the matter this conventus matter is significative of what we
senators consider as important or not for Nova Roma. The conventus is, imho, one
of the very few effective and working actions that our republic have created. A
conventus is invaluable in terms of human relations between us. We should show
the major interest that such events represent for Nova Roma, being ready to
support them by a major financial input. Once again, I cannot but regret that
we take the question from the wrong side, here, `hiding ourselves' behind the
argument of budget capacities just because we have not anticipated to spend a
higher sum for the conventus.For the future, the Patres must be conscious that a
conventus in the ancient Roman Empire area costs more than a conventus outside,
just because of the visits on sites and the t ravels they need.n this view, the
amounts proposed by the Budget Committee look totally out of phase with reality,
or reflecting a will to lower the participation of NR central treasury on the
`benefit' of the provinces or of external fundings. Such a policy would be imho
an error: the Republic will be able to be sure keeping the control on such
events as long as It will be able to be a significant granter.
QSP: VTI ROGAS.
GEM: VTI ROGAS.
TGP: VTI ROGAS. We have committees to discuss these types of items. The $300
amount was never discussed and should not be before this house. Two members
took the time to vote and a few others took the time to discuss the issues. Why
bother to do either if our recommendations are to be augmented by someone else
choice.
LCSF: VTI ROGAS. I vote yes to both items.
MHM: ANTIQVO.
QFM: VTI ROGAS. $15.00 USD pp is more than fair. However, it appears that the
committee concept is breaking down. Perhaps we should rethink this committee.
Do we really need it, if people bypass it?
ATS: ANTIQVO. This is really a very token amount, and one I think should
depend on local conditions, such as the cost of living in a given area where the
Conventus is to be held.
DIP: ANTIQVO.
GVA: VTI ROGAS.
CFBM: ANTIQVO. My apologies to the Senate Budget Committee for not voicing my
opinion within the co mmittee in a timely manner but I am of the opinion that
events can and should be fundraisers and should be self-sufficent. I believe
there must ALWAYS be a strong religio element to ANY Nova Roma event--provincial
or state level. Without that guarantee of a strong religio element to any event
I am non-committal about financing them, and as I just mentioned I think events
should be fund raisers and not financial liabilities.
GIC: VTI ROGAS.
CFD: ANTIQVO.
EIL: VTI ROGAS. Though with reservations since the two conventi are in the
same item, and since conventus Gallia is only for this year. I agree with this
amount for the US conventus, but not for the Europa conventus. The tax rate for
the European provinces is much lower in many cases than the US rates.
Furthermore, most of the European provinces either retain or ask to have
returned 50% of their provincial revenues. Whereas in the US, only one province
retains half its taxes. Paying this amount for the European conventus could
feasibly mean that only a fraction, if any, of their tax revenues goes towards
Nova Roma's operating expenses, and nothing towards allocations. This cannot be
sustained in the future as continuing this practice could lead to the European
provinces as having a negative financial affect on this organization. I also
agree with Senator Modianus that conventi should be used for fundraising, or at
a minimum, ask attendees to put in a donation to cover some of the cost.
It20should also be used as an opportunity to bring in new citizens (and future
revenues). Alternatively, we could hold fundraisers for the purpose of funding
conventi, set up a conventi fund, ask for citizen donations, sponsors, or
considerably raise our tax rates for certain provinces to offset the costs.
II.2 or the Senate autohorizes to grant no more than $ 300 per each Conventus?
ITEM II.2 FAILS: XII ANTIQVO * X VTI ROGAS * III ABSTINEO
MCC: VTI ROGAS.
MIS: ANTIQVO.
MMPH: ADSENTIOR VTI ROGAS. This amount, too, is not very realistic if compared
to the cost of running a Conventus. It certainly is not if we wish our Conventus
to one day attract others whom we might then be able to recruit as Citizens. But
with our current financial assets to is a reasonable amount, if only a token
amount.
CCS: VTI ROGAS. The sum is in line with our financial capabilities and gives a
good amount of money to cover running costs.
CFBQ: VTI ROGAS. My Aedilian Cohors and I organized the first Conventus in
Europe without any economical support although the organizers lived in
Scandinavia and the Conventus was held in Belgium, with a last minute local
assistance. With that experience this sum should be able to give a contribution
and the treasury be able to handle this sum and above all it can't grow.
TIS: ABSTINEO.
PUSV: ANTIQVO. If a Conventus is successful and draws 100 Nova Romans, the
benefit should be US $1500.00. If it is less successful and draws only 10, then
US $150.00.
FGA: VTI ROGAS.
GEC: ANTIQVO.
MLA: ANTIQVO.
MIP: ABSTINEO.
PMA: ABSTINEO [Tribune's Note: PMA did not specify which portion of Item II he
abstained from; so I am making the presumption that he meant both].
QSP: ANTIQVO. They are few and far between and we could do a little better than
that.
GEM: ANTIQVO.
TGP: ANTIQVO on $300.
LCSF: VTI ROGAS.
MHM: VTI ROGAS. A Conventus will be the fulcrum to take NR off the net and
into reality. We need to spend the funds proportionate to our budget. But we
also will need an itemized list of expenses from organizers to do this
effectively.
QFM: ANTIQVO on $300.
ATS: ANTIQVO. Again, a fixed amount is not viable as the need will depend on
conditions at the time and place selected. This would perhaps be better as a
minimum amount, but not a maximum one. Secondly, as has been noted, the
Conventus in Gallia has unfortunately been cancelled, so this is somewhat moot
for such purposes this year. I do support grants for these purposes; the
Conventús (fourth declension plural, with a long final u) are wonderful
opportunities for us to meet one another, and endeavors worthy of our support.
The number of attendees at any Conventus will depend on a number of factors
quite beyond the control of the organizers , so I deem it unfair to penalize
them for such things as fluctuation in the world or national economy/ies or
inability to get vacation time, etc. Some costs related to a Conventus are
fixed; if one has 30 people on a bus to some site or one has three, the cost is
the same unless the trip is cancelled (and then there might be a cancellation
fee). Expecting a hundred people at a Conventus is pure fiction when we cannot
even get half a dozen to attend a dinner meeting held in an area which has a
large number of citizens.
DIP: VTI ROGAS.
GVA: VTI ROGAS.
CFBM: ANTIQVO.
GIC: ANTIQVO.
CFD: VTI ROGAS.
EIL: ANTIQVO.
Item III: Approval of the Lex Curiatia Iulia de institutis publicis religiosis
passed by the Comitia Centuriata.
By this Lex Curiatia Iulia de institutis publicis religiosis the Constitution,
Article VI, on Public Religious Institutions, is hereby replaced by the
following Article VI.
A. The Religio Romana, defined as the traditional worship of the Gods and
Goddesses of Rome, shall be the official religion of Nova Roma.
B. The sacerdotal responsibilities for the State Religion of Nova Roma shall be
invested primarily into the Collegium Pontificum and the Collegium Augurum.
1. The Collegium Pontificum shall consist of the Rex and Regina Sacrorum, the
Flamens, Flaminicas, Pontifices, and the Sacerdotes Vestales, co-opted by the
Collegium Pontificum itself, under its own governing rules. The Collegium
Pontificum shall be responsible for the conduct and administration of all public
religious ceremonies other than those rites assigned to the Augurs. To that
purpose, the Collegium Pontificum may create sacerdotal offices, sodalitates,
and collegia.
2. The Collegium Augurum shall consist of all public Augurs who are co-opted by
the Collegium Augurum itself, under its own governing rules. The individual
members of the Collegium Augurum shall be responsible for instructing and
advising curule magistrates on performing auspicia on behalf of Nova Roma. In
other religious ceremonies the Augures shall perform their traditional
responsibilities. The Collegium Augurum may create sacerdotal offices and
sodalitates that are specifically related to the conduct and administration of
its responsibilities.
C. Additional sacerdotal collegia may be instituted and their rules set by the
Collegium Pontificum, with the approval of the Comitia Centuriata.
ITEM III FAILS (because it did not receive the vote of 2/3 of the entire Senate
necessary for any amendment of the NR Constitution) :
VII ANTIQVO * XIIII VTI ROGAS * IIII ABSTINEO.
MCC: VTI ROGAS.
MIS: VTI ROGAS.
MMPH: ADSENTIOR VTI ROGAS. This measure was approved by members of the Collegium
Pontificum. It is a necessary amendment that eliminates an ahistorical,
hierarchial
structure of our religious institutions and will allow the Summa Quattuor
Collegia to develop into an historical form. The Collegium Pontificum20asked for
this amendment in order that it be able to carry out the reforms asked of it.
This was understood by the Quirites and thus was it approved by the Comitia
Centuriata. This Senate ought now to ratify what is a necessary change.
CCS: VTI ROGAS.
CFBQ: VTI ROGAS.
TIS: VTI ROGAS.
PUSV: ANTIQVO. Upon further reflection, I would like to see this law rewritten
in simpler terms, with definitions of just what "traditional" practices are.
Though I am familiar with the Religio, Nova et Antiqua, as an outsider I'd like
to know better what I have bound myself to safeguard.
FGA: VTI ROGAS.
GEC: ANTIQVO. I state again my objections: "...defined as the traditional ...
1. The Collegium Pontificum shall consist of the Rex and Regina Sacrorum, the
Flamens, Flaminicas, Pontifices, and the Sacerdotes Vestales, co-opted by the
Collegium Pontificum itself, under its own governing rules." (A) The insertion
of the words "defined as the traditional" is unnecessary and not terribly useful
until we have in written form a precise description of what the "traditional"
worship actually consists of. In referring to "the worship of the Gods and
goddesses of ancient Rome", the Constitution already makes it clear Who is being
worshiped. By inserting the word "traditional" you are assuming a body of
information (the description of this "traditional" worship) that does not
currently exist in our Respublica. This is an amendment to the Constitution, not
s imply a law, so every time we seek to change the wording it should be either
as broad as possible or as specific as possible. This is neither, and so serves
no useful purpose. (B) Legally the word "shall" implies an imperative; we do
not have a Rex and Regina Sacrorum, so adopting this as it stands would mean
that we cannot actually have a Collegium Pontificum until such time as we do
have a Rex and Regina Sacrorum. I would suggest amending it to something like
"shall contain such priestly offices as flamens, pontifices, and the sacerdotes
Vestales; other priestly offices may be added as deemed appropriate by adoption
of a decretum issued by the Collegium Pontificum." "Shall" is used to denote a
condition precedent. The existence of a condition precedent means that a person,
action, or other thing is required to comply with a stated condition as a
prerequisite to having full legitimacy. The condition may be stated in a variety
of ways, but typically the condition requires the person, action, or other thing
to: (1) meet certain stated conditions; (2) possess certain stated
characteristics; or (3) consist of certain stated components. (C) The proper
noun "Flaminica" is specifically used in ancient sources to refer only to the
wife of the Flamen Dialis; its use here may be inappropriate. It can be
understood that the words "flamens", "pontifices" , "augurs", and "sacerdotes"
may refer to individuals of either sex in those offices. None of these titles
should be capitalized unless they are r eferring to a specific individual.
MLA: VTI ROGAS.
MIP: VTI ROGAS.
PMA: ABSTINEO. For the sentence: "The Collegium Pontificum shall be
responsible for the conduct and administration of all public religious
ceremonies other than those rites assigned to the Augurs." could lead us to
difficulties when ordinary magistrates are, in their normal duties, brought to
conduct themselves such ceremonies. I recommend that this passage be reviewed.
QSP: ABSTINEO.
GEM: VTI ROGAS.
TGP: ANTIQVO.
CSF: ANTIQVO. A change like this also needs an attorney to review it -
considering that Nova Roma is not incorporated as a religious based institution
- but as a public benefit institution.
MHM: VTI ROGAS. The Quirites passed this, it permits the CP flexibility.
QFM: ANTIQVO. I voted against it in our College. I believe then as I do now,
it needs to be re written, with greater use of qualifiers. Right now these are
too confusing. I am tired of confusing laws. Aren't you?
ATS: VTI ROGAS. I share some concerns expressed by others regarding
non-cultores, inter alia, but will hope for the best on these points.
DIP: ABSTINEO. I have listened and listened to the debate about this issue,
mainly over the word `traditional' and `shall'. The opposition to the first
word doesn't convince me at all, it is a tempest in a teapot. We know what
traditional me ans, even if the College hasn't officially "defined" it. There
have been concerns raised about the wording regarding the college of augurs and
whether it can be used to prevent non cultores from holding magistracies if they
are unwilling to perform auguries. I don't find this entirely convincing but I
understand the concerns and will abstain for now.
GVA: ANTIQVO.
CFBM: VTI ROGAS.
GIC: ANTIQVO.
CFD: ABSTINEO.
EIL: VTI ROGAS.
Item IV: Approval of the Lex Curiatia Iulia de ratione comitiorum centuriatorum
passed by the Comitia Centuriata:
By this Lex Curiatia Iulia de ratione comitiorum centuriatorum is amended the
Lex Fabia de ratione comitiorum centuriatorum 5. B which reads:
In the case of a magisterial election, voting shall be sequential.
1. A century from the first class shall be selected by lot by the diribitores to
vote first. No century containing only one member shall be selected for this
purpose. For the first 48 hours of the voting period only members of that
century shall be permitted to vote.
2. Twenty-four (24) hours after the beginning of the voting period, the
diribitores shall tally the votes of all those who have voted so far according
to the method set out in A.1 above, and shall announce the result no later than
48 hours after the beginning of the voting period.
3. Forty-eight (48) hours after the beginning of the voting period, the rest of
the centuries in the first class shall be permitted to vote; members of the
century selected under B.1 above who have not yet voted shall still be permitted
to vote.
4. Ninety-six (96) hours after the beginning of the voting period, the
diribitores shall tally the votes of all those who have voted so far according
to the method set out in A.1 above, and shall announce the results no later than
120 hours after the beginning of the voting period.
5. One hundred twenty (120) hours after the beginning of the voting period,
everyone who is eligible to vote but has not yet done so shall be permitted to
vote. All voting shall cease no less than 216 hours after the beginning of the
voting period.
The Lex Fabia de ratione comitiorum centuriatorum 5.B is hereby amended as
follows:
5.B: In the case of magisterial elections, the voting period shall last no fewer
than 192 hours (8 days), with all centuries casting their votes concurrently.
Reports of the voting results shall be announced sequentially.
1. The Diribitores shall select by lot one century from among the first class
centuries to serve as the Centuria Praerogativa. No century containing only one
member shall be selected for this purpose.
2.Within forty-eight (48) hours after the beginning of the voting period, the
Diribitores shall tally the votes of all those who have cast votes thus far in
the Centuria Praerogativa, and shall announce those results no later than 48
hours after the beginning of the voting period.
3. Ninety-six (96) hours after the=2 0beginning of the voting period, the
Diribitores shall tally the votes of all those who have voted thus far, and
shall announce the results of only the first class centuries no later than 120
hours after the beginning of the voting period.
4. All voting shall cease after no less than 192 hours (8 days) have past and no
more than 216 hours (9 days) have past after the beginning of the voting period.
The Diribitores shall then tally all votes cast and within 48 hours later report
the results solely to the presiding magistrate and to his or her colleague as
per 3.F.
ITEM IV PASSES: III ANTIQVO * XXI VTI ROGAS * I ABSTINEO
MCC: VTI ROGAS.
MIS: VTI ROGAS.
MMPH: ADSENTIOR VTI ROGAS. This measure simplifies voting procedures so that
they shall be less confusing to voters, and thus prevent problems as we've seen
in recent years. At the same time it allows us to retain all augural procedures
as our tradition has followed in recent years.
CCS: VTI ROGAS.
CFBQ: VTI ROGAS.
TIS: VTI ROGAS.
PUSV: ITA [VTI ROGAS]. As both a Custos Emeritus and Diribitor Emeritus, I think
this a commonsense adjustment of our voting procedure.
FGA: VTI ROGAS.
GEC: VTI ROGAS.
MLA: VTI ROGAS.
MIP: ABSTINEO.
PMA: VTI ROGAS.
QSP: VTI ROGAS.
GEM: VTI ROGAS.
TGP: VTI ROGAS.
LCSF: ANTIQVO.
MHM: VTI ROGAS .
QFM: ANTQVO. We keep adding snippets to our voting laws. Why can't we simply
tear apart the whole thing and rewrite it from scratch? As a writer of rules I
know from past experience adding rules to existing rules causes other rules to
change meanings or be confusing for interpretation.
ATS: ANTIQVO. I prefer the present, more Roman, system, though clearly we must
do more to educate the voters and make other changes, such as increase the
number of diribitores and lengthen the portion of the voting period devoted to
those other than the first-class centuries. Too many of our election officials
in particular see fit to disappear, especially when they are most needed.
DIP: VTI ROGAS. A much needed simplification of our voting system.
GVA: VTI ROGAS.
CFBM: VTI ROGAS.
GIC: VTI ROGAS.
CFD: VTI ROGAS.
EIL: VTI ROGAS.
Item V: Approval of the Lex Curiatia Iulia de tributo virginum vestalium passed
by the Comitia Centuriata
By this Lex Curiatia Iulia de tributo virginum Vestalium is amended the Lex
Apula de assiduis et capite censis, pars II, by the addition of paragraph II.B,
which is:
II.B: Those appointed as Vestal Virgins by the Collegium Pontificum shall be
exempt from paying the annual tax and shall retain their status as Assidui so
long as they remain Vestal Virgins. No special conditions shall be placed on
Vestal Virgins with regard to their p lacement in centuries and tribes or upon
their ability to run for or hold office.
ITEM V PASSES: III ANTIQVO * XX VTI ROGAS * II ABSTINEO
MCC: VTI ROGAS.
MIS: VTI ROGAS.
MMPH: ADSENTIOR VTI ROGAS. This exemption for the Vestal Virgines is another
measure that I, as Pontifex Maximus, have asked the Quirites to grant. I thank
the Comitia Centuriata for approving the measure. This is an essential
sacerdotal office, one that is central to the religio Romana that we are
building for Nova Roma. Where historically the Vestales were paid a stipend by
the State; in comparison this exemption from the tributa is only a gesture. But
it does show that Nova Roma places special value on the services that these
women will provide to benefit all of our Quirites.
CCS: VTI ROGAS.
CFBQ: VTI ROGAS.
TIS: VTI ROGAS.
PUSV: ITA [VTI ROGAS]. I do believe that the Vestals should have some special
privileges and protections.
FGA: VTI ROGAS.
GEC: VTI ROGAS.
MLA: VTI ROGAS.
MIP: ABSTINEO.
PMA: ABSTINEO. I have personally voted `antiquo' on the principle of an
exemption, for the grounds that I have already expressed, but do not wish to
oppose the People's vote in a matter where our fundamental law is not at stake.
QSP: VTI ROGAS.
GEM: VTI ROGAS.
TGP: VTI ROGAS.
LCSF: ANTIQVO. To grant tax exemption to ANYONE - when NR=2 0has been declining
in revenue every single year is a gross disregard to the financial health of the
organization. This exemption should be sought once Nova Roma's tax roles have
expanded for at least a 3 year straight period.
MHM: VTI ROGAS. This is the start the Vestals are essential to Nova Roma and
should receive the highest honours.
QFM: ANTIQVO. I agree that we need incentives to get vestals into service for
the Goddess. But, an exception goes against everything Flavius Vedius wished in
his tax concept. This fundamental concept is that if you want to take part of
Nova Roma's structure you must be willing to support Her by paying dues.
Perhaps reasonability for the Vestal dues should fall to the Pontifix Maximus,
after all he holds manus over them, he is the Paterfamilias for the group. It
is something to think about.
ATS: VTI ROGAS.
DIP: VTI ROGAS. I have no objection to the vestals receiving this exemption,
though we have to be pretty careful about exemptions. We don't have much money
coming in to begin with.
GVA: VTI ROGAS.
CFBM: VTI ROGAS.
GIC: ANTIQVO. I don't support any exemptions at this stage - given our
finances and the pitiful amount involved.
CFD: VTI ROGAS.
EIL: VTI ROGAS.
========
Vale.
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M. Moravius Piscinus cultoribus Deorum et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit: Di vos servent cum vester.
Hodie est ante diem IX Kalendas Septembres; haec dies nefastus est: Mundus patet
"Arugula should be sown after the Vulcanalia." ~ G. Plinius Secundus, Historia Naturalis 18.74
Mundus patet
The mundus being open today, no marriages may be performed, no legions raised, nor sent on campaign, nor sent into battle, since, "When the mundus is opened, the doorway is opened on the gloom of the infernal Gods (Macrobius, Saturnalia 1.16.18)."
The mundus was a round pit at the center of the Roma quadrata on the Palatine Hill. Its concave bottom, according to Cato, mirrored the arch of the sky above (Festus 1, c). This was due, too, to the mundus representing the Underworld, which is that portion of the sky that lies beneath the astronomical equator. It is believed that the mundus itself was covered by a stone and opened only on three days of the year – 24 August, 5 October, and 8 November (Festus s. v. lapis manalis; Ateius Capito in Festus 154; Macrobius, Saturnalia 1.16.17). When opened, fruits of the earth were offered to Proserpina and Dis Pater in thanks for allowing the Manes to roam the earth on this night. On these nights the Manes are available for consultations.
AUC 832 / 79 CE: First day of the eruption of Mt. Vesuvius begins the destruction of Pompeii, Herculeum, and Stabiae as Plinius Secundus rushes to rescue their inhabitants.
"My uncle was stationed at Misenum, in active command of the fleet. On 24 August, in the early afternoon, my mother drew his attention to a cloud of unusual size and appearance. He had been out in the sun, had taken a cold bath, and lunched while lying down, and was then working at his books. He called for his shoes and climbed up to a place which would give him the best view of the phenomenon. It was not clear at that distance from which mountain the cloud was rising (it was afterwards known to be Vesuvius); its general appearance can best be expressed as being like an umbrella pine, for it rose to a great height on a sort of trunk and then split off into branches, I imagine because it was thrust upwards by the first blast and then left unsupported as the pressure subsided, or else it was borne down by its own weight so that it spread out and gradually dispersed. In places it looked white, elsewhere blotched and dirty, according to the amount of soil and ashes it carried with it.
"My uncle's scholarly acumen saw at once that it was important enough for a closer inspection, and he ordered a boat to be made ready, telling me I could come with him if I wished. I replied that I preferred to go on with my studies, and as it happened he had himself given me some writing to do.
"As he was leaving the house he was handed a message from Rectina, wife of Tascus whose house was at the foot of the mountain, so that escape was impossible except by boat. She was terrified by the danger threatening her and implored him to rescue her from her fate. He changed his plans, and what he had begun in a spirit of inquiry he completed as a hero. He gave orders for the warships to be launched and went on board himself with the intention of bringing help to many more people besides Rectina, for this lovely stretch of coast was thickly populated.
"He hurried to the place which everyone else was hastily leaving, steering his course straight for the danger zone. He was entirely fearless, describing each new movement and phase of the portent to be noted down exactly as he observed them. Ashes were already falling, hotter and thicker as the ships drew near, followed by bits of pumice and blackened stones, charred and cracked by the flames: then suddenly they were in shallow water, and the shore was blocked by the debris from the mountain.
"For a moment my uncle wondered whether to turn back, but when the helmsman advised this he refused, telling him that Fortune stood by the courageous and they must make for Pomponianus at Stabiae." ~ G. Plinius Caecilius Secundus minor, Letter 6.16 to Cornelius Tacitus
AUC 704 /49 BCE: C. Curio Scribonius, leading a force loyal to C. Julius Caesar, was defeated and killed by the Pompeians under Attius Varus and his Numidian allies under King Juba I.
"Curio had set out at the fourth watch with all his forces, except five cohorts which he left to guard the camp. Having advanced six miles, he met the horse, heard what had happened and inquired from the captives who commanded the camp at Bagrada. They replied Sabura. Through eagerness to perform his journey, he neglected to make further inquiries, but looking back to the company next him, "Don't you see, soldiers," says he, "that the answer of the prisoners corresponds with the account of the deserters, that the king is not with him, and that he sent only a small force which was not able to withstand a few horse? Hasten then to spoil, to glory; that we may now begin to think of rewarding you, and returning you thanks." The achievements of the horse were great in themselves, especially if their small number be compared with the vast host of Numidians. However, the account was enlarged by themselves, as men are naturally inclined to boast of their own merit. Besides, many spoils were produced; the men and horses that were taken were brought into their sight, that they might imagine that every moment of time which intervened was a delay to their conquest. By this means the hope of Curio were seconded by the ardor of the soldiers. He ordered the horse to follow him, and hastened his march, that he might attack them as soon as possible, while in consternation after their flight. But the horse, fatigued by the expedition of the preceding night, were not able to keep up with him, but fell behind in different places. Even this did not abate Curio's hopes.
"Juba, being informed by Sabura of the battle in the night, sent to his relief two thousand Spanish and Gallic horse, which he was accustomed to keep near him to guard his person, and that part of his infantry on which he had the greatest dependence, and he himself followed slowly after with the rest of his forces and forty elephants, suspecting that as Curio had sent his horse before, he himself would follow them. Sabura drew up his army, both horse and foot, and commanded them to give way gradually and retreat through the pretense of fear; that when it was necessary he would give them the signal for battle, and such orders as he found circumstances required. Curio, as his idea of their present behavior was calculated to confirm his former hopes, imagined that the enemy were running away, and led his army from the rising grounds down to the plain.
"And when he had advanced from this place about sixteen miles, his army being exhausted with the fatigue, he halted. Sabura gave his men the signal, marshaled his army, and began to go around his ranks and encourage them. But he made use of the foot only for show; and sent the horse to the charge: Curio was not deficient in skill, and encouraged his men to rest all their hopes in their valor. Neither were the soldiers, though wearied, nor the horse, though few and exhausted with fatigue, deficient in ardor to engage, and courage: but the latter were in number but two hundred: the rest had dropped behind on the march. Wherever they charged they forced the enemy to give ground, but they were not able to pursue them far when they fled, or to press their horses too severely. Besides, the enemy's cavalry began to surround us on both wings and to trample down our rear. When any cohorts ran forward out of the line, the Numidians, being fresh, by their speed avoided our charge, and surrounded ours when they attempted to return to their post, and cut them off from the main body. So that it did not appear safe either to keep their ground and maintain their ranks, or to issue from the line, and run the risk. The enemy's troops were frequently reinforced by assistance sent from Juba; strength began to fail our men through fatigue; and those who had been wounded could neither quit the field nor retire to a place of safety, because the whole field was surrounded by the enemy's cavalry. Therefore, despairing of their own safety, as men usually do in the last moment of their lives, they either lamented their unhappy deaths, or recommended their parents to the survivors, if fortune should save any from the impending danger. All were full of fear and grief.
"When Curio perceived that in the general consternation neither his exhortations nor entreaties were attended to, imagining that the only hope of escaping in their deplorable situation was to gain the nearest hills, he ordered the colors to be borne that way. But a party of horse, that had been sent by Sabura, had already got possession of them. Now indeed our men were reduced to extreme despair: and some of them were killed by the cavalry in attempting to escape: some fell to the ground unhurt. Cneius Domitius, commander of the cavalry, standing round Curio with a small party of horse, urged Curio to endeavor to escape by flight, and to hasten to his camp; and assured him that he would not forsake him. But Curio declared that he would never more appear in Caesar's sight, after losing the army which had been committed by Caesar, to his charge, and accordingly fought till he was killed. Very few of the horse escaped from that battle, but those who had stayed behind to refresh their horses having perceived at a distance the defeat of the whole army, retired in safety to their camp.
"The soldiers were all killed to a man." ~ C. Julius Caesar, De Bello Civili 2.39-43
Our thought for today is from Demophilus, Pythagorean Sentences 6:
"Divinity does not principally esteem the tongue, but the deeds of the wise; for a wise man, even when he is silent, honors Divinity."
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