Salve Semproni,
sorry, but your abbreviations are unintelligible to me.
NVA? PX? Bah!

Vale,
Livia

>
> Salve Livia,
> Change of subject but your mention of East German police reminded me of an amusing true story: I find it amusing that the NVA�, on PX day in the west, would come and clean out semi-loads of goods in the PX in the west. The East German police would give some NVA personnel going over money to buy stuff for them too. Then, after�their goods were delivered, some�issued�tickets to those they sent in the first place.
> �
> Peanut Butter was real big! Those nutty�NVA der DDRers went all buttery over the buttery and nutty flavor of peanut butter. Under Yeltsin, it was a good trade for vodka in Russia.
> Vale,
> A. Sempronius Regulus
> �
> --- On Fri, 8/28/09, livia_plauta <livia.plauta@ ...> wrote:
>
>
> From: livia_plauta <livia.plauta@ ...>
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Religio, politics [was Alembic and Herbalism }
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
> Date: Friday, August 28, 2009, 9:01 PM
>
>
> �
>
>
>
> Plauta Catoni sal.
>
> Cato, you are behaving like those East German policemen who would fine pedestrians for crossing the road with the red light, even if there were no cars in sight for kilometres on end.
>
> There is one point when respecting the letter of the law becomes ridiculous..
>
> If really the constitution is so badly formulated that it prescribes a full Collegium Pontificum, when it's obvious that filling some of the positions is very difficult or downright impossible, then it's the constitution that needs to be changed.
>
> Hovever burdensome the procedure for changing the constitution is, it's simpler than forcefully appointing unwilling and incompetent people to positions in the CP.
>
> The reactions to your idea might not always have been totally rational or well expressed, but you have to realize that proposing something like this suggests that you have no idea of what the function of the Collegium Pontificum is, and that you see it only as a decorative formation with no real task.
>
> This is what people may find offensive, because the Collegium Pontificum has very important tasks connected with the reconstruction and spreading of Religio.
>
> Obviously this is not important for you, who are not a cultor, but I'm sure I can safely say that most of the cultores in NR would see CP posts occupied by competent and willing people, or vacant, if this is not possible, rather than having them all filled at all costs.
>
> Optime vale,
> L. Livia Plauta
>
> >
> > Cato Iulio Neroni sal.
> >
> > Salve.
> >
> > I am a citizen, and a senator, of this Respublica. As such, I have a duty, an obligation, to see that our laws are obeyed. I have no interest in "interfering" with the religio privata of anyone in any way at all - and I make that quite clear repeatedly - but when the State cult is involved as an excuse to ignore or break the law of the Respublica, it becomes all of our business.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Cato
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, "rikudemyx" <rikudemyx@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Salve,
> > > I'm not trying to bash the religion of anyone but if he is so sure in the salvation of his god then why is he interferring with ours?
> > > It's akin to a bishop deciding to start making the rules for Buddhism, or the u.s. president deciding to make laws in Canada.
> > > DVIC
> > > Nero
> >
>

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.71/2331 - Release Date: 08/28/09 06:26:00

Correct! Although the west had a confusing array of acronyms for the East German military. I remember mongrel mixtures like "NPA der DDR" and "NVA der GDR". Ugh! --- On Fri, 8/28/09, Lyn Dowling <ldowling@...> wrote: From: Lyn Dowling <ldowling@...> Subject: RE: Die DDR ;) Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Religio, politics [was Alembic and Herbalism } To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, August 28, 2009, 9:56 PM   Salve Livia,   NVA = Nationale Volksarmee (DDR/East German army) PX = Post exchange: retail store at a U.S. military installation.   Vale, L. Aemilia    From: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Nova- Roma@yahoogroups .com] On Behalf Of livia_plauta Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 5:48 PM To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Die DDR ;) Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Religio, politics [was Alembic and Herbalism }   Salve Semproni, sorry, but your abbreviations are unintelligible to me. NVA? PX? Bah! Vale, Livia > > Salve Livia, > Change of subject but your mention of East German police reminded me of an amusing true story: I find it amusing that the NVA�, on PX day in the west, would come and clean out semi-loads of goods in the PX in the west. The East German police would give some NVA personnel going over money to buy stuff for them too. Then, after�their goods were delivered, some�issued�tickets to those they sent in the first place. > � > Peanut Butter was real big! Those nutty�NVA der DDRers went all buttery over the buttery and nutty flavor of peanut butter. Under Yeltsin, it was a good trade for vodka in Russia. > Vale, > A. Sempronius Regulus > � > --- On Fri, 8/28/09, livia_plauta <livia.plauta@ ...> wrote: > > > From: livia_plauta <livia.plauta@ ...> > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Religio, politics [was Alembic and Herbalism } > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com > Date: Friday, August 28, 2009, 9:01 PM > > > � > > > > Plauta Catoni sal. > > Cato, you are behaving like those East German policemen who would fine pedestrians for crossing the road with the red light, even if there were no cars in sight for kilometres on end. > > There is one point when respecting the letter of the law becomes ridiculous.. > > If really the constitution is so badly formulated that it prescribes a full Collegium Pontificum, when it's obvious that filling some of the positions is very difficult or downright impossible, then it's the constitution that needs to be changed. > > Hovever burdensome the procedure for changing the constitution is, it's simpler than forcefully appointing unwilling and incompetent people to positions in the CP. > > The reactions to your idea might not always have been totally rational or well expressed, but you have to realize that proposing something like this suggests that you have no idea of what the function of the Collegium Pontificum is, and that you see it only as a decorative formation with no real task. > > This is what people may find offensive, because the Collegium Pontificum has very important tasks connected with the reconstruction and spreading of Religio. > > Obviously this is not important for you, who are not a cultor, but I'm sure I can safely say that most of the cultores in NR would see CP posts occupied by competent and willing people, or vacant, if this is not possible, rather than having them all filled at all costs. > > Optime vale, > L. Livia Plauta > > > > > Cato Iulio Neroni sal. > > > > Salve. > > > > I am a citizen, and a senator, of this Respublica. As such, I have a duty, an obligation, to see that our laws are obeyed. I have no interest in "interfering" with the religio privata of anyone in any way at all - and I make that quite clear repeatedly - but when the State cult is involved as an excuse to ignore or break the law of the Respublica, it becomes all of our business. > > > > Vale, > > > > Cato > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, "rikudemyx" <rikudemyx@> wrote: > > > > > > Salve, > > > I'm not trying to bash the religion of anyone but if he is so sure in the salvation of his god then why is he interferring with ours? > > > It's akin to a bishop deciding to start making the rules for Buddhism, or the u.s. president deciding to make laws in Canada. > > > DVIC > > > Nero > > > No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13..71/2331 - Release Date: 08/28/09 06:26:00

Salve,   Our counterparts weren't the NVA. It was the Grenztruppen der DDR. --- On Fri, 8/28/09, A. Sempronius Regulus <asempronius.regulus@...> wrote: From: A. Sempronius Regulus <asempronius.regulus@...> Subject: RE: Die DDR ;) Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Religio, politics [was Alembic and Herbalism } To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, August 28, 2009, 10:03 PM   Correct! Although the west had a confusing array of acronyms for the East German military. I remember mongrel mixtures like "NPA der DDR" and "NVA der GDR". Ugh! --- On Fri, 8/28/09, Lyn Dowling <ldowling@cfl. rr.com> wrote: From: Lyn Dowling <ldowling@cfl. rr.com> Subject: RE: Die DDR ;) Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Religio, politics [was Alembic and Herbalism } To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Friday, August 28, 2009, 9:56 PM   Salve Livia,   NVA = Nationale Volksarmee (DDR/East German army) PX = Post exchange: retail store at a U.S. military installation.   Vale, L. Aemilia    From: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Nova- Roma@yahoogroups .com] On Behalf Of livia_plauta Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 5:48 PM To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Die DDR ;) Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Religio, politics [was Alembic and Herbalism }   Salve Semproni, sorry, but your abbreviations are unintelligible to me. NVA? PX? Bah! Vale, Livia > > Salve Livia, > Change of subject but your mention of East German police reminded me of an amusing true story: I find it amusing that the NVA�, on PX day in the west, would come and clean out semi-loads of goods in the PX in the west. The East German police would give some NVA personnel going over money to buy stuff for them too. Then, after�their goods were delivered, some�issued�tickets to those they sent in the first place. > � > Peanut Butter was real big! Those nutty�NVA der DDRers went all buttery over the buttery and nutty flavor of peanut butter. Under Yeltsin, it was a good trade for vodka in Russia. > Vale, > A. Sempronius Regulus > � > --- On Fri, 8/28/09, livia_plauta <livia.plauta@ ...> wrote: > > > From: livia_plauta <livia.plauta@ ...> > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Religio, politics [was Alembic and Herbalism } > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com > Date: Friday, August 28, 2009, 9:01 PM > > > � > > > > Plauta Catoni sal. > > Cato, you are behaving like those East German policemen who would fine pedestrians for crossing the road with the red light, even if there were no cars in sight for kilometres on end. > > There is one point when respecting the letter of the law becomes ridiculous.. > > If really the constitution is so badly formulated that it prescribes a full Collegium Pontificum, when it's obvious that filling some of the positions is very difficult or downright impossible, then it's the constitution that needs to be changed. > > Hovever burdensome the procedure for changing the constitution is, it's simpler than forcefully appointing unwilling and incompetent people to positions in the CP. > > The reactions to your idea might not always have been totally rational or well expressed, but you have to realize that proposing something like this suggests that you have no idea of what the function of the Collegium Pontificum is, and that you see it only as a decorative formation with no real task. > > This is what people may find offensive, because the Collegium Pontificum has very important tasks connected with the reconstruction and spreading of Religio. > > Obviously this is not important for you, who are not a cultor, but I'm sure I can safely say that most of the cultores in NR would see CP posts occupied by competent and willing people, or vacant, if this is not possible, rather than having them all filled at all costs. > > Optime vale, > L. Livia Plauta > > > > > Cato Iulio Neroni sal. > > > > Salve. > > > > I am a citizen, and a senator, of this Respublica. As such, I have a duty, an obligation, to see that our laws are obeyed. I have no interest in "interfering" with the religio privata of anyone in any way at all - and I make that quite clear repeatedly - but when the State cult is involved as an excuse to ignore or break the law of the Respublica, it becomes all of our business. > > > > Vale, > > > > Cato > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, "rikudemyx" <rikudemyx@> wrote: > > > > > > Salve, > > > I'm not trying to bash the religion of anyone but if he is so sure in the salvation of his god then why is he interferring with ours? > > > It's akin to a bishop deciding to start making the rules for Buddhism, or the u.s. president deciding to make laws in Canada. > > > DVIC > > > Nero > > > No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13..71/2331 - Release Date: 08/28/09 06:26:00



----- Original Message -----

From: Cn. Cornelius Lentulus

To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 7:25 AM

Subject: [Nova-Roma] Put Your Name In Vocative!

 

Lentulus omnibus sal.

I've just invented a game for you in which you can also learn Romanitas: a little everday Latin.

Let's practice the formidable Vocative Case.

What's that? When we call someone by name in Latin, we use a form of the name called the "vocative case". Here are the basic rules for making a vocative:

If a name ends in "-ius", then the vocative ends in "-i". "Tullius" becomes "Tulli".

If a name ends in "-us", then the vocative ends in "-e". "Marcus" becomes "Marce".

All other names do not change at all. "Cicero" stays "Cicero", "Livia" stays "Livia" and so on.

To learn more visit our page about the vocative case:
http://www.novaroma .org/nr/Vocative

AND NOW, THE GAME:

Put your full Roman name in Vocative Case, and post it to the mailing list! I will check them all.

Valete!
Cn. Cornelius Lentulus
Magister Sodalitatis Latinitatis

__________ NOD32 4378 (20090828) Information __________

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
http://www.eset.com

----- Original Message -----

From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...

To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 11:08 AM

Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Religio, politics [was Alembic and Herbalism }

 

Aurelianus Cato sal.

 

No, I disagree with you.  The word of THE DIVINE is definitive, everything else is open to interpretation.  On the point that you are making and based upon my study of history, I respectfully disagree.  The majority of the Senate and People of Nova Roma also disagree.  Since you are a big fan of the simple majority (51%), then the simple majority of NR disagrees with you about the legitimacy of the CP.  The simple majority accepts it to be legitimate; the Tribunes accept it as legitimate; the Consuls, Censores, Praetores, and the simple majority of the Senate accept it as legitimate.  The simple majority of the People accept it. 

 

As such, it follows that you are not being ignored, but that the majority of Nova Romans disagree with your interpretation.  You are entitled to your opinion and can hold it close to your heart so that it warms you in the lonely corners of the night. 

 

However, you should just accept that almost no one agrees with you and there is nothing you can do about it except continue to annoy us.

 

Have a nice day.

 

Vale.


-----Original Message-----
From: gequitiuscato <catoinnyc@gmail. com>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Fri, Aug 28, 2009 9:01 am
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Religio, politics [was Alembic and Herbalism }

 

Cato Aureliane sal.

Salve.

Very well.

Start with the Constitutional language. The language sets certain requirements on what we can consider to be a legitimate College of Pontiffs ("CP"). What does the Constitution say?

"The collegium pontificum (college of pontiffs) shall be the highest of the priestly collegia. It shall consist of the Pontifex Maximus, fourteen Pontifices, twelve flamines, six Sacerdotes Vestales, and the Rex and Regina Sacrorum. The collegium pontificum shall appoint its own members. The collegium pontificum shall have the following honors, powers, and responsibilities: " (Const. NR VI.B.1)

Since the Constitution is above *all* other law, its language is definitive. So in order to comply with these requirements, the CP must contain the elements as defined by the Constitution ("It *shall* consist of..." - my emphasis). If it does not have all these elements, it does not fulfill the Constitutional requirements for a CP.

If the current group of pontifices, flamens, etc., do not equal the requirements of the membership of the CP set by the Constitution, they do not compose a CP. If a CP does not exist, it cannot perform the functions of the CP, which renders the third line (regarding appointments) null.

If the CP does not exist (yet), how do we get over the Constitutional language that allows only the CP to appoint members to itself? There are two ways: appoint a dictator to do so, or enable the consuls to do so by a senatus consultum ultimum (SCU); an SCU temporarily overrides the authority of the Constitution for a *specific purpose* only:

"When in effect, this decree [the senatus consultum ultimam] will supersede all other governmental bodies and authorities (with the exception of the dictator) and allow the Senate to invest the consuls with absolute powers to deal with a specific situation, subject only to their collegial veto and review by the Senate." - (Const. NR V.E)

In this case, the Senate would grant the consuls the authority to fill the vacancies so that a full CP does exist, and therefore fulfills the requirements of the Constitution.

Nowhere do I suggest that anybody "pack" the CP with anybody else. Nowhere do I assume any control over the situation by anyone other than the Senate and the consuls. It is, in fact, with an almost foolhardy belief on my part that the consuls - despite how I feel about almost everything they have done for months - want what is best for the Respublica that I suggest this.

The Senate uses its Constitutional authority to give power to the consuls, the consuls use their own intelligence and the input of the current pontiffs, flamens, etc., to make the right choices. the Senate reviews their choices, and we have a Constitutionally- created, fully authoritative College of Pontiffs.

Vale,

Cato

P.S. - regarding her, perhaps you are content with a pathological liar speaking on behalf of your private cultus and as the voice of all ancient Romans. I would not be. GEC

__________ NOD32 4378 (20090828) Information __________

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
http://www.eset.com

----- Original Message -----

From: Lyn Dowling

To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 2:17 PM

Subject: RE: [Nova-Roma] Stop all kind of personalities and bickering

 

Salvete omnes,

 

Yes, please end it. Disagreement and argument are understandable: bound to happen when any number of people meet, online or otherwise. But this nonsense goes on and on, reminiscent of flaming and trolling in the early days of Usenet. Some people simply do not know when to stop.

 

Can we not find matters on which we agree -- the majesty of Roma, the value of Romanitas, the beauty of the Latin language, et al -- and proceed from there?

 

Valete,

L. Aemilia Mamerca

 

From: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Nova- Roma@yahoogroups .com] On Behalf Of Diana Aventina
Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 5:11 AM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Stop all kind of personalities and bickering

 

Salve Lentulus,

>Stop, stop, stop.

Good luck... The bickering has been going on for years and it never stops.
People hold grudges here for years. It's amazing.

While I truly hope that the bickering stops, I would say that your email
will have the same result as banging your head against a brick wall.

Vale,
Diana Aventina

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.71/2331 - Release Date: 08/28/09 06:26:00

__________ NOD32 4378 (20090828) Information __________

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
http://www.eset.com

Salve Dexter,   If Cato is converting, fine and good. But he has not said that. Plus his recent speeches don't sound like a convert or even a tentative convert. I believe he is just a New Jersey boy, needing to strut like a New Yorker. That is a local American culture distinction. Plus, he is a concierge. It is a respectable profession and highly valued. But Cato seems to take it to heart and try "to be all things to all men". No problem in that, per se, but not a worthy life. But Cato also seems "to be all things to all men" while selectively taking some dead serious depending on his political fortunes (oh, too bad, he does not worship Fortuna). That is a mix that spells duplicity. Untrustworthy.   Vale optime, A. Sempronius Regulus   --- On Fri, 8/28/09, petronius_dexter <jfarnoud94@...> wrote: From: petronius_dexter <jfarnoud94@...> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Religio, politics [was Alembic and Herbalism } To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, August 28, 2009, 7:07 PM   C. Petronius A. Sempronium Regulum salute impertit plurima, >>> Wrong. We do and have to worry about it. If you are a sincere Orthodox Christian and not a faker, it is incumbent on you by the canon law of your church to destroy all pagan practices. So, the cultores of the religio have a legitimate reason to not trust you. If you are not a sincere Orthodox Christian, then your duplicity also gives everyone reason to not trust you.<<< It is logical and elementary. But, after all, to save his honor in a such odd christian orthodoxy he might be an Apostolate. Cato the Apostolate. It sounds well... Vale. C. Petronius Dexter

Salvete, et salve Cantermi,   Agreement, hmmm, not so simple.   Since Cato has not been to law school (and I have taught in it), I would like to point out a few things for his benefit. 1. There are studies that people like Cato tend to fail in law school or fail in practice. They were a profile study asking why the failure. The answer is similar to why people fail in culinary academy. They expect recipes. Cooking is nothing about recipes. 2. The practice of law is an art because its enactment and enforcement are a prcess of continuous interpretation and negotiation between contending parties. Cato reads a lot of law books (recipes).   In labor law, an agreement is only the limits within which two opposed parties continue to legally fight subject to further re-negotiation. Each will, eventually, have different interpretations of the "agreement". The process and art, which Cato has no knowledge of, is how to negotiate agreement, again, again, again.   Vale, A. Sempronius Regulus   --- On Fri, 8/28/09, Bruno Cantermi <brunocantermi@...> wrote: From: Bruno Cantermi <brunocantermi@...> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Stop all kind of personalities and bickering To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, August 28, 2009, 11:28 PM   Well, Aemilia, there are matters that we in fact agree, huh?   Vale,   LVSITANVS.SPD. ----- Original Message ----- From: Lyn Dowling To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 2:17 PM Subject: RE: [Nova-Roma] Stop all kind of personalities and bickering   Salvete omnes,   Yes, please end it. Disagreement and argument are understandable: bound to happen when any number of people meet, online or otherwise. But this nonsense goes on and on, reminiscent of flaming and trolling in the early days of Usenet. Some people simply do not know when to stop.   Can we not find matters on which we agree -- the majesty of Roma, the value of Romanitas, the beauty of the Latin language, et al -- and proceed from there?   Valete, L. Aemilia Mamerca   From: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Nova- Roma@yahoogroups .com] On Behalf Of Diana Aventina Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 5:11 AM To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Stop all kind of personalities and bickering   Salve Lentulus, >Stop, stop, stop. Good luck... The bickering has been going on for years and it never stops. People hold grudges here for years. It's amazing. While I truly hope that the bickering stops, I would say that your email will have the same result as banging your head against a brick wall. Vale, Diana Aventina No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13..71/2331 - Release Date: 08/28/09 06:26:00 __________ NOD32 4378 (20090828) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset. com

Cato Aureliano sal.

Salve.

And you have every right to hold the opinion you do. We simply disagree, and I am absolutely positive that the current government (or rather, the rest of it) will stand behind you one hundred percent.

It would still be nice to get an argument or opinion that involves actual logic and our law, though. Until one is offered, I have no reason to think in any other way than I do currently.

Vale!

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@... wrote:
>
>
> Aurelianus Cato sal.
>
>
>
> I regret to say that if it is a choice between legal grammaticians since 1705 and your opinion of?an imperative present ?versus a modal future?verb, I must respectfully say "You are wrong."
>
>
>
> This is the end of this discussion between us on this topic.? You are welcome to raise the question of amending the Constitution or amending a lex during any future contio in the Senate but I do not (present tense) and will not (future tense)?agree with your interpretation of the meaning of the word "shall" in reference to the Constitution.? I must be (imperative) clear on this issue!
>
>
>
> I know that you will never get a SC or SCU passed to obtain the action you wish and, should you continue to press for it, you will know only disappointment and frustration.
>
>
>
> It is not?[legally]?do you to interpret?whether or not a Constitutional amendment, lex, edictum, SC, or discretum violates the letter or spirit of of the current Constitution or leges.? That power rests solely with the Tribunes . . . or the Consuls and Censores (de facto) if they choose to ignore the Tribunes.
>
>
>
> Vale.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gequitiuscato <catoinnyc@...>
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Fri, Aug 28, 2009 2:37 pm
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Religio, politics [was Alembic and Herbalism }
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Cato C. Petronio Dextero Galerio Aurelianusque SPD
>
> Salvete.
>
> Petronius Dexter, I realized it might be more polite to reproduce my argument here than make you search for it. In addition, every "shall be" in the document you quoted just recently is actually being done, so that's a moot point.
>
> Aureliane, this is my answer to your response. Please bear in mind as well that
>
> 1) we are not the ancients, we have our own law and if our law states something it stands even if it disagrees with the ancients, and
> 2) the intent of the written law does not mean a single useful thing; only the actual written law (the Constitution) does.
>
> Legally the word "shall" implies an imperative; "shall" is used to denote a condition precedent. The existence of a condition precedent means that a person, action, or other thing is required to comply with a stated condition as a prerequisite to having full legitimacy. The condition may be stated in a variety of ways, but typically the condition requires the person, action, or other thing to:
>
> 1) meet certain stated conditions;
> 2) possess certain stated characteristics; or
> 3) consist of certain stated components.
>
> We do not have a Rex and Regina Sacrorum, and several other offices are vacant as well, so as it stands we cannot actually have a Collegium Pontificum until such time as we do have a Rex and Regina Sacrorum.
>
> I suggested amending it to something like "[the Collegium Pontificum] shall contain such priestly offices as flamens, pontifices, and the sacerdotes Vestales; other priestly offices may be added as deemed appropriate by adoption of a decretum issued by the Collegium Pontificum."
>
> Valete,
>
> Cato
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gequitiuscato" <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> >
> > Cato C. Petronio Dextero sal.
> >
> > Salve.
> >
> > Yes, it does; this is the legal meaning of the term "shall". Please see my comments from the Senate's last vote for a full explanation.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Cato
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Salve Gai Equiti Cato,
> > >
> > > > Since the Constitution is above *all* other law, its language is definitive. So in order to comply with these requirements, the CP must contain the elements as defined by the Constitution ("It *shall* consist of..." - my emphasis). If it does not have all these elements, it does not fulfill the Constitutional requirements for a CP.
> > >
> > > The Constitution gives the components maximum of the Collegium Pontificum, but it did not say that a CP incomplete is not the Collegium Pontificum.
> > >
> > > Vale.
> > > C. Petronius Dexter
> > >
> >
>

A. Sempronius Regulus Graece sal.   [Note: I used to speak Latin. My knowledge of it now is reading knowledge. But Scholastica encouraged me to speak and write Latin, and Dexter is one I will also try a bit more at a time with.]   Looking over the language, English, and grammar, English, I doubt the early founders of Nova Roma had the mastery you think they had. May I ask how you came to that impression?   Vale, A. Sempronius Regulus From: gualterus_graecus <waltms1@...> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Religio, politics [was Alembic and Herbalism } To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, August 28, 2009, 7:54 PM   Salve Aureliane, You have illustrated one usage of "shall", but the tense and mood system of English is more complex this. Of course, I can easily understand why there may be confusion now or even during the drafting of the Constitution, since the full system is no longer used in American English and has been falling away in British English for over a century. "Shall" in the first person and "will" in the second and third persons is used in the indicative simple future. "shall" in the second or third person and "will" in the first person is used in the indicative future promise/obligation. In the subjunctive, "shall" and "will" are interchangeable in all persons. I know I have left out some details because it's been years since I've read Fowler's grammar, but the above inversion of "shall" and "will" depending on whether simple futurity or obligation is intended is the gist of it (in the full-blown version, Fowler outlines three different systems for shall & will). What is important is to understand that modern American legalese has fossilized the obligative usage of "shall" in the second and third persons, which is what has gotten Cato going. To the extent that he argues that "shall" here indicates obligation he is correct, and I don't doubt the drafters of the Constitution had the same thing in mind since "shall" is otherwise rarely used in American English except to be conspicuous in legalese. Now, what about the CP and the Constitution? I think the wording is bad, influenced by legalese English, but not taking full stock of the consequences. If the CP is obligated to have X members, then if it fails this condition does it cease to exist or not? The Constitution also states that the CP will appoint its own members. So, in-line with the general legal principle of interpreting law in a way that does not self-contradict itself, I think the simplest interpretation of the situation is to consider the current CP technically unconstitutional until it corrects the situation by adding the correct number of members on its own. Now, in fact, I think the easiest solution is to amend the Constitution' s wording since I don't see the correct number of CP members being added anytime in the future. This approach also has the virtue of not stepping on too many people's toes, even though, ancient Roman precedent certainly gives the Senate ultimate power over the priestly colleges. Vale, Gualterus --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@ ... wrote: > > > Aurelianus Cato sal. > > I am not talking about legal precedence but rather the proper interpretation of English as the official business language of Nova Roma. > > From the very inception of Nov Roma, there has never been a fully stocked college of priest, college of augurs, college of the Arval Brethren, et cetera.  The Sacred Colleges have had higher numbers in the past but many of those individuals never contributed a single article, class, or ritual to the reconstruction and restoration of the Religio Romana. > > Let us look at the crux of your argument which is the use of the word “shall” in the Nova Roma Constitution.  The word “shall” is a modal verb used to express propositions about the future; this is also true of the word “will”.  Based upon this definition and use (Mirriam-Webster Guide for English Usage), when the NR Constitution was written and amended, this word was used to reflect a future state of the Collegium Pontificum and Nova Roma as a whole.  If the word “shall” was meant to convey a present tense, then it is more likely that the words “must now be” would have been used.  > > Now since we are Nova ROMA, let us examine the cognate words.  There was no direct cognate for the English word “shall” in the Latin language but there is a Latin word for the word “will”.  That word is “velle” which translates “to wish for” which illustrates that the20ideal goal of our founders was to wish for a complete CP at some time in the future. > > Finally, let us examine the reality of the Constitution as written by our founders and amended by the successors.  When NR was founded there were two members.  As such, there is no possible way that they could have meant that NR as a political and religious micronation (or as a model res publica) was not meant to function until there were sufficient members to stock every portion as outlined by the Constitution.  Rome was not built in a day and neither is Nova Roma to be built completely in ten years. > > Now I realize that I should have phrased my early response in this manner rather than making a presumption that you were raised in the same educational tradition as I.  That was a mistake on my part and I regret making it.  I SHALL endeavor to do better and I hope you WILL accept my apology. > Vale. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: gequitiuscato <catoinnyc@. ..> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com > Sent: Fri, Aug 28, 2009 11:01 am > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Religio, politics [was Alembic and Herbalism } > > > > > > > Cato Aureliane sal. > > Salve. > > Up to this point, I thought you were actually interested in discussing the merits of the thing itself. Then we get: > > "No, I disagree with you. The word of THE DIVINE is definitive, everything else is open to interpretation. " > > If THE DIVINE wants to, it can defend itself. For us here and now, we have the Constitution: > > "Legal precedence. This20Constitution shall be the highest legal authority within Nova Roma...." > > Again, neither you nor anyone else has offered a single response based on our law that shows another valid, logical interpretation. You base your argument on the fact that people disagree with me, and you can certainly continue in that method if it makes you happy. It just isn't a valid argument based on our law. > > Your remarks about the law and "majority" are disingenuous at best; the law is not made invalid simply because people don't want to believe it or it is uncomfortable or inconvenient. If the majority does believe a law is wrong, then we have a system of repeal and/or amendment that works perfectly well. > > Not only that, but a vote has not even been taken by the Respublica as a whole regarding the issue of the CP, so it is logically impossible for you to declare that "51%" of anybody or that a "simple majority of NR" agrees or disagrees with what I have said about it. What you mean is that the current government ("the Tribunes...the Consuls, Censores, Praetores") dislikes me and disagrees with me, so I have to accept their disregard of the law as valid. > > In the *only* vote that *has* taken place, the item failed - under our law, regardless of how you'd like to parse it - so I must by your logic be right, as I led the argument against it. > > I'm fairly disappointed that I approached you with simple logical argument only to have you retreat back into that sort of "nobody agrees with you so you must20be wrong" mentality. > > Vale, > > Cato >

A. Sempronius Regulus cato sal.   Your public failures in logic and your over-estimated powers of logic are well noted.   Vale, From: gequitiuscato <catoinnyc@...> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Religio, politics [was Alembic and Herbalism } To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, August 28, 2009, 11:32 PM   Cato Aureliano sal. Salve. And you have every right to hold the opinion you do. We simply disagree, and I am absolutely positive that the current government (or rather, the rest of it) will stand behind you one hundred percent. It would still be nice to get an argument or opinion that involves actual logic and our law, though. Until one is offered, I have no reason to think in any other way than I do currently. Vale! Cato --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@ ... wrote: > > > Aurelianus Cato sal.. > > > > I regret to say that if it is a choice between legal grammaticians since 1705 and your opinion of?an imperative present ?versus a modal future?verb, I must respectfully say "You are wrong." > > > > This is the end of this discussion between us on this topic.? You are welcome to raise the question of amending the Constitution or amending a lex during any future contio in the Senate but I do not (present tense) and will not (future tense)?agree with your interpretation of the meaning of the word "shall" in reference to the Constitution. ? I must be (imperative) clear on this issue! > > > > I know that you will never get a SC or SCU passed to obtain the action you wish and, should you continue to press for it, you will know only disappointment and frustration. > > > > It is not?[legally] ?do you to interpret?whether or not a Constitutional amendment, lex, edictum, SC, or discretum violates the letter or spirit of of the current Constitution or leges.? That power rests solely with the Tribunes . . . or the Consuls and Censores (de facto) if they choose to ignore the Tribunes. > > > > Vale. > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: gequitiuscato <catoinnyc@. ..> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com > Sent: Fri, Aug 28, 2009 2:37 pm > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Religio, politics [was Alembic and Herbalism } > > > > > > > > Cato C. Petronio Dextero Galerio Aurelianusque SPD > > Salvete. > > Petronius Dexter, I realized it might be more polite to reproduce my argument here than make you search for it. In addition, every "shall be" in the document you quoted just recently is actually being done, so that's a moot point. > > Aureliane, this is my answer to your response. Please bear in mind as well that > > 1) we are not the ancients, we have our own law and if our law states something it stands even if it disagrees with the ancients, and > 2) the intent of the written law does not mean a single useful thing; only the actual written law (the Constitution) does. > > Legally the word "shall" implies an imperative; "shall" is used to denote a condition precedent. The existence of a condition precedent means that a person, action, or other thing is required to comply with a stated condition as a prerequisite to having full legitimacy. The condition may be stated in a variety of ways, but typically the condition requires the person, action, or other thing to: > > 1) meet certain stated conditions; > 2) possess certain stated characteristics; or > 3) consist of certain stated components.. > > We do not have a Rex and Regina Sacrorum, and several other offices are vacant as well, so as it stands we cannot actually have a Collegium Pontificum until such time as we do have a Rex and Regina Sacrorum. > > I suggested amending it to something like "[the Collegium Pontificum] shall contain such priestly offices as flamens, pontifices, and the sacerdotes Vestales; other priestly offices may be added as deemed appropriate by adoption of a decretum issued by the Collegium Pontificum." > > Valete, > > Cato > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, "gequitiuscato" <catoinnyc@> wrote: > > > > Cato C. Petronio Dextero sal. > > > > Salve. > > > > Yes, it does; this is the legal meaning of the term "shall". Please see my comments from the Senate's last vote for a full explanation. > > > > Vale, > > > > Cato > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Salve Gai Equiti Cato, > > > > > > > Since the Constitution is above *all* other law, its language is definitive. So in order to comply with these requirements, the CP must contain the elements as defined by the Constitution ("It *shall* consist of..." - my emphasis). If it does not have all these elements, it does not fulfill the Constitutional requirements for a CP. > > > > > > The Constitution gives the components maximum of the Collegium Pontificum, but it did not say that a CP incomplete is not the Collegium Pontificum. > > > > > > Vale. > > > C. Petronius Dexter > > > > > >

Cato Liviae Plautae sal.

Salve.

Livia Plauta, creating a Constitutionally-valid College of Pontiffs is a slightly larger concern than your East German policeman. And that's not even dealing with the fact that a law is valid *even if no-one is around to witness it in action*.

You don't have to explain to me the problems with the Constitution; I've been talking about it for three or four years now.

I know exactly what the College of Pontiffs does (it's in the Constitution) and I know what is necessary to make it valid (that's in the Constitution, too).

It is important to me because it is just one more in a long line of convenience-based decisions about our law.

It is sad that everyone who has reacted regarding appointments immediately assumes that the only people out there are incompetent and unwilling to serve in priestly offices - or that the consuls would be "forced" to appoint the unwilling or the incompetent.

If the religio is in such a miserable state in the Respublica, that would concern me the most.

Vale,

Cato

Lentulus Lusitano sal.

>>> Sounds interesting! Well, here's mine: Lucii Fidelii Lusitane Vale, LVSITANVS.SPD. <<<

Not entirely, but it's a good start.

Lucius and Fidelius end in "ius" so they become "-i". One "i", not two.

Your name in vocative case is: Luci Fideli Lusitane


Fac valeas!

Lentulus Sempronio sal. Perfect. You are a vocative genious. :-) VALE! --- Ven 28/8/09, A. Sempronius Regulus <asempronius.regulus@...> ha scritto: Da: A. Sempronius Regulus <asempronius.regulus@...> Oggetto: Re: [Nova-Roma] Put Your Name In Vocative! A: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com Data: Venerdì 28 agosto 2009, 23:27   Aule Semproni Regule Â

M. Iulius Scaeva salutem plurimam dicit. S.V.B.E.E.V.

There was a remarkable find recently in Germania:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090827/sc_nm/us_germany_archaeology_1

It is a pertinent article given the fact that we are approaching the 2000th anniversary of the massacre at Teutoburg which took place from September 9th through the 11th in 9 AD.

For those of you not familiar with the history, 3 of Caesar Augustus's legions under the command of Publius Quinctilius Varus were tricked into a indefensible area and completely massacred.

Until his dying days, Augustus when distressed over this or that would from often exclaim, "Varus! Give me back me legions!".

This event was a pivotal moment in the history of the empire.

ECCE! ROMA SEMPITERNA!
Di te familiaque incolumem custodiant!

Lentulus Catoni sal. Hmmm, not entirely, Gai Cato. Gaius becomes Gai, Equitius becomes Equiti, but Cato has no vocative form: it remains Cato. "Catoni" is, however, a dative, meaning "to Cato". "Lentulus Catoni" means "Lentulus to Cato"; while if I address you saying "listen Cato", in this phrase Cato remains Cato. Vale, Gai Equiti Cato! Cn. Lentulus --- Ven 28/8/09, gequitiuscato <catoinnyc@...> ha scritto: Da: gequitiuscato <catoinnyc@...> Oggetto: [Nova-Roma] Re: Put Your Name In Vocative! A: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com Data: Venerdì 28 agosto 2009, 21:49   Salvete! Me too lol Gai Equiti Catoni? Valete, Cato --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, Colin Brodd <magisterbrodd@ ...> wrote: > > Ooh, I'll play! > Gaius Tullius Valerianus Germanicus -> Gai Tulli Valeriane Germanice! > > On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 7:25 AM, Cn. Cornelius Lentulus < > cn_corn_lent@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > Lentulus omnibus sal. > > > > I've just invented a game for you in which you can also learn Romanitas: a > > little everday Latin. > > > > Let's practice the formidable Vocative Case. > > > > What's that? When we call someone by name in Latin, we use a form of the > > name called the "vocative case". Here are the basic rules for making a > > vocative: > > > > If a name ends in "-ius", then the vocative ends in "-i". "Tullius" becomes > > "Tulli". > > > > If a name ends in "-us", then the vocative ends in "-e". "Marcus" becomes > > "Marce". > > > > All other names do not change at all. "Cicero" stays "Cicero", "Livia" > > stays "Livia" and so on. > > > > To learn more visit our page about the vocative case: > > http://www.novaroma .org/nr/Vocative > > > > AND NOW, THE GAME: > > > > Put your full Roman name in Vocative Case, and post it to the mailing list! > > I will check them all. > > > > Valete! > > Cn. Cornelius Lentulus > > Magister Sodalitatis Latinitatis > > > > > > > > > > -- > "Qua(e) patres difficillime > adepti sunt nolite > turpiter relinquere" - > Monumentum Bradfordis, Tamaropoli, in civitate Massaciuseta > (Bradford Monument, Plymouth, MA) > > Check out my books on Goodreads: <a href=" > http://www.goodread s.com/profile/ Valerianus? utm_source= email_widget"> > http://www.goodread s.com/profile/ Valerianus</a> >

Lentulus Valeriano sal. Perfect vocative from a most educated Latinist! Thank you, Gai Tulli Valeriane! --- Ven 28/8/09, Colin Brodd <magisterbrodd@...> ha scritto: Da: Colin Brodd <magisterbrodd@...> Oggetto: Re: [Nova-Roma] Put Your Name In Vocative! A: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com Data: Venerdì 28 agosto 2009, 21:37   Ooh, I'll play! Gaius Tullius Valerianus Germanicus -> Gai Tulli Valeriane Germanice! On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 7:25 AM, Cn. Cornelius Lentulus <cn_corn_lent@ yahoo.it> wrote:   Lentulus omnibus sal. I've just invented a game for you in which you can also learn Romanitas: a little everday Latin. Let's practice the formidable Vocative Case. What's that? When we call someone by name in Latin, we use a form of the name called the "vocative case". Here are the basic rules for making a vocative: If a name ends in "-ius", then the vocative ends in "-i". "Tullius" becomes "Tulli". If a name ends in "-us", then the vocative ends in "-e". "Marcus" becomes "Marce". All other names do not change at all. "Cicero" stays "Cicero", "Livia" stays "Livia" and so on. To learn more visit our page about the vocative case: http://www.novaroma .org/nr/Vocative AND NOW, THE GAME: Put your full Roman name in Vocative Case, and post it to the mailing list! I will check them all. Valete! Cn. Cornelius Lentulus Magister Sodalitatis Latinitatis -- "Qua(e) patres difficillime adepti sunt nolite turpiter relinquere" - Monumentum Bradfordis, Tamaropoli, in civitate Massaciuseta (Bradford Monument, Plymouth, MA) Check out my books on Goodreads: <a href="http://www.goodread s.com/profile/ Valerianus? utm_source= email_widget">http://www.goodread s.com/profile/ Valerianus</a>

Lentulus Gaio Iulio Neroni sal. Yes, and congratulations! Your gave the perfect vocative form of your name. Gaius Iulius Nero, if addressed, becomes Gai Iuli Nero. VALE! CN LENTULUS --- Ven 28/8/09, rikudemyx <rikudemyx@...> ha scritto: Da: rikudemyx <rikudemyx@...> Oggetto: [Nova-Roma] Re: Put Your Name In Vocative! A: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com Data: Venerdì 28 agosto 2009, 21:36   Salve, Gaius Iunius Nero: Gai Iuni Nero? Di Vos Incolume Custodiant Nero --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, John Citron <johnnormancitron@ ...> wrote: > > Scaeva CN Lentulo sal. > Meus malus!  > Di te familiaque incolumem custodiant! >   >   > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > From: Cn. Cornelius Lentulus <cn_corn_lent@ ...> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com > Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 9:28:32 AM > Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Put Your Name In Vocative! > > > > > Lentulus M.Iulio Scaevae sal. > > Gratias tibi ago. Nomen tuum in vocativo est "Marce Iuli Scaeva". Unum "-i" et non duo. > > Almost correct, but "Iulius" in vocative is "Iuli", with one "i"! :-) > > VALE! > CN LENTULUS > > --- Ven 28/8/09, John Citron <johnnormancitron@ ...> ha scritto: > > > >Da: John Citron <johnnormancitron@ ...> > >Oggetto: Re: [Nova-Roma] Put Your Name In Vocative! > >A: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com > >Data: Venerdì 28 agosto 2009, 13:40 > > > > > >  > >M. Iulius Scaeva salutem plurimam dicit. S.V.B.E.E.V.  > >  > >Nomen meus in vocativus: Marce Iulii Scaeva. > > > >Di te familiaque incolumem custodiant! > >  > >  > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > From: Cn. Cornelius Lentulus <cn_corn_lent@ yahoo.it> > >To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com > >Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 7:25:54 AM > >Subject: [Nova-Roma] Put Your Name In Vocative! > > > >Lentulus omnibus sal. > > > >I've just invented a game for you in which you can also learn Romanitas: a little everday Latin. > > > >Let's practice the formidable Vocative Case. > > > >What's that? When we call someone by name in Latin, we use a form of the name called the "vocative case". Here are the basic rules for making a vocative: > > > >If a name ends in "-ius", then the vocative ends in "-i". "Tullius" becomes "Tulli". > > > >If a name ends in "-us", then the vocative ends in "-e". "Marcus" becomes "Marce". > > > >All other names do not change at all. "Cicero" stays "Cicero", "Livia" stays "Livia" and so on. > > > >To learn more visit our page about the vocative case: > >http://www.novaroma .org/nr/Vocative > > > >AND NOW, THE GAME: > > > >Put your full Roman name in Vocative Case, and post it to the mailing list! I will check them all. > > > > > >Valete! > >Cn. Cornelius Lentulus > >Magister Sodalitatis Latinitatis > > > > > >      > > > > > >----------- - --------- --------- ------ > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > >

Cato Cornelio Lentulo sal.

Salve!

Thanks, and thanks Petronius Dexter - I caught that later.

Vale!

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cn. Cornelius Lentulus" <cn_corn_lent@...> wrote:
>
> Lentulus Catoni sal.
>
>
> Hmmm, not entirely, Gai Cato.
>
> Gaius becomes Gai, Equitius becomes Equiti, but Cato has no vocative form: it remains Cato.
>
> "Catoni" is, however, a dative, meaning "to Cato".
>
> "Lentulus Catoni" means "Lentulus to Cato"; while if I address you saying "listen Cato", in this phrase Cato remains Cato.
>
>
> Vale, Gai Equiti Cato!
>
> Cn. Lentulus
>
>
> --- Ven 28/8/09, gequitiuscato <catoinnyc@...> ha scritto:
>
> Da: gequitiuscato <catoinnyc@...>
> Oggetto: [Nova-Roma] Re: Put Your Name In Vocative!
> A: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Data: Venerdì 28 agosto 2009, 21:49
>
>  Salvete!
>
> Me too lol
>
> Gai Equiti Catoni?
>
> Valete,
>
> Cato
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, Colin Brodd <magisterbrodd@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > Ooh, I'll play!
> > Gaius Tullius Valerianus Germanicus -> Gai Tulli Valeriane Germanice!
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 7:25 AM, Cn. Cornelius Lentulus <
> > cn_corn_lent@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Lentulus omnibus sal.
> > >
> > > I've just invented a game for you in which you can also learn Romanitas: a
> > > little everday Latin.
> > >
> > > Let's practice the formidable Vocative Case.
> > >
> > > What's that? When we call someone by name in Latin, we use a form of the
> > > name called the "vocative case". Here are the basic rules for making a
> > > vocative:
> > >
> > > If a name ends in "-ius", then the vocative ends in "-i". "Tullius" becomes
> > > "Tulli".
> > >
> > > If a name ends in "-us", then the vocative ends in "-e". "Marcus" becomes
> > > "Marce".
> > >
> > > All other names do not change at all. "Cicero" stays "Cicero", "Livia"
> > > stays "Livia" and so on.
> > >
> > > To learn more visit our page about the vocative case:
> > > http://www.novaroma .org/nr/Vocative
> > >
> > > AND NOW, THE GAME:
> > >
> > > Put your full Roman name in Vocative Case, and post it to the mailing list!
> > > I will check them all.
> > >
> > > Valete!
> > > Cn. Cornelius Lentulus
> > > Magister Sodalitatis Latinitatis
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > "Qua(e) patres difficillime
> > adepti sunt nolite
> > turpiter relinquere" -
> > Monumentum Bradfordis, Tamaropoli, in civitate Massaciuseta
> > (Bradford Monument, Plymouth, MA)
> >
> > Check out my books on Goodreads: <a href="
> > http://www.goodread s.com/profile/ Valerianus? utm_source= email_widget">
> > http://www.goodread s.com/profile/ Valerianus</a>
> >
>

Salve, Thanks. May I have a note to show my wife? "The man may be the head of the household but the woman is the neck. She turns it anyway she wants." [something like that from the American movie, "My Big Fat Greek Wedding"].   --- On Fri, 8/28/09, Cn. Cornelius Lentulus <cn_corn_lent@...> wrote: From: Cn. Cornelius Lentulus <cn_corn_lent@...> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Put Your Name In Vocative! To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, August 28, 2009, 11:54 PM   Lentulus Sempronio sal. Perfect. You are a vocative genious. :-) VALE! --- Ven 28/8/09, A. Sempronius Regulus <asempronius. regulus@yahoo. com> ha scritto: Da: A. Sempronius Regulus <asempronius. regulus@yahoo. com> Oggetto: Re: [Nova-Roma] Put Your Name In Vocative! A: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com Data: Venerdì 28 agosto 2009, 23:27   Aule Semproni Regule

Salve
In vocativo caso mihi nomen est Hortensia. Heu, tempore rei publicae feminae non praenomina fuerunt. Hodie feliciter Novis Romanis praenomina cognomina sunt;-)
vale
Maior

>
> Salve,
> Thanks. May I have a note to show my wife?
>
> "The man may be the head of the household but the woman is the neck. She turns it anyway she wants." [something like that from the American movie, "My Big Fat Greek Wedding"].
>  
> --- On Fri, 8/28/09, Cn. Cornelius Lentulus <cn_corn_lent@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: Cn. Cornelius Lentulus <cn_corn_lent@...>
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Put Your Name In Vocative!
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Friday, August 28, 2009, 11:54 PM
>
>
>  
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Lentulus Sempronio sal.
>
> Perfect.
>
> You are a vocative genious.
>
>
> :-)
>
>
> VALE!
>
>
> --- Ven 28/8/09, A. Sempronius Regulus <asempronius. regulus@yahoo. com> ha scritto:
>
>
> Da: A. Sempronius Regulus <asempronius. regulus@yahoo. com>
> Oggetto: Re: [Nova-Roma] Put Your Name In Vocative!
> A: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
> Data: Venerdì 28 agosto 2009, 23:27
>
>
>  
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> Aule Semproni Regule
>
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>  
>

 A. Tullia Scholastica L. Juliae Aquilae quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
 

Salve Magistra amica,

>quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque bonae voluntatis S.P.D.

I just loooovvvveeee when you do this!

    ATS:  It would be easier if my signature thingie would not only print this out, but Yahoo would also let it appear instead of removing it when automated...


It's like a swatch of lacet français d'Latine;)

    ATS2:  Quoi?  Quid? Je n’entends pas.  

>ATS:  We were not wearing togae. [...]  We had an impromptu fashion show, using Regulus’ wardrobe of
> > tailored-tradition outfits and my supply of draped-tradition ones, and had a
> > great time.  

So I was informed - also that our PM particpated.

    ATS2:  Indeed he did.  Both gentlemen were very cooperative.  Wish some of my earlier male models had been anywhere near as willing.  


I am going to request a similar "fashion show" for the Conventus next year - very imformative and as I have demonstrated, very needed.

    ATS2:  Good idea.  It was really a lot of fun.  


Warning feeble attempt at humor: my first thought was that you both were wearing tablecloths or sheets - then I realized that they were probably fashioned from such!*laugh*

    ATS2:  Oh, no, my dear; they are made from yard goods fresh from your friendly, neighborhood fabric store (or a special supplier).  The khiton is best made from crinkle cotton, or crinkle cotton polyester (if you don’t care about authenticity).  The chlamys, its female equivalent, the chlaina, the himation, the men’s Roman tunica, the toga, pallium, and often the palla, are normally wool, and the women’s tunica may be wool if desired.  Most of the reenactors seem to avoid wool when possible, partly because of allergy and partly because the reenactments are typically in southern climes in summer...yunno, Nashville-in-August type weather, so they go for cotton or linen, which are sufficiently authentic to pass muster.   The men’s khiton or tunica takes about 3.5 to 4 yards of 45 inch fabric; the women’s takes perhaps six yards of 45 inch fabric pieced, or perhaps a bit less using 56 inch unpieced.  My blue khiton (in the picture you saw) is 45 inch, and pieced vertically.  The woolen peplos requires so much fabric that we cannot make it unless it is pieced.  

    In all honesty, I do use some linen tablecloths as capes..but only rarely.  Most are not suitable.  

> >     ATS:  We hope that the ritual video will eventually make it to some
> > website, though probably not a Yahoo list as I think it is too long. [...]

As I mentioned to Maior - I cannot wait to see it, I will make a little sacrifice myself then mange loa (Haitian Patios for eating with the gods, a sacrifical rite) with a tray of fruit and cheese;)

    ATS2:  Regulus filmed it, so you will have to chat with him...Hortensia previewed some of it, so it must have come out okay.  

As for the rest, veritas wins out, and those who truly seek veritas recognize BS when they see it, don't sweat it Magistra mea - if you did not have honorable dignitas you would not be such a good target;)

    ATS2:  Trouble is, very few seek the motto of Hahvahd.  (I think it’s Veritas, anyway...)

Now i have a guidance counseler to light a fire under

    ATS2:  Already?  School just started in your area, didn’t it?  I think some of ours will start Monday, as will Grammatica II...if my students show up, which they have been unwilling to do.  I have registered a couple of Russkies in Sermo I, with more in the pipeline, so I may need  Galerius Aurelianus II to assist.  They are writing to me in Cyrillic...  May also need a pic of our philosopher in a certain uniform to keep them in line.  He knows which one...  ;-)

 and tons of other wonderful (NOT) errands and projects (these are wonderful) so I am offline until I return to my humble abode;)

Di Novae Romae favent et dona nobis pacem,

    ATS2:  Assentior.  

Julia

  Vale, et valete.  
    

Ah, don't sweat it. I hear from a good source that the yahoo, as a species, even gave their creator, Swift, a bad time. Welcome to yahoo world. --- On Sat, 8/29/09, A. Tullia Scholastica <fororom@...> wrote: From: A. Tullia Scholastica <fororom@...> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Conventus Past: Correction To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, August 29, 2009, 12:49 AM    A. Tullia Scholastica L. Juliae Aquilae quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque bonae voluntatis S.P.D.   Salve Magistra amica, >quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque bonae voluntatis S.P.D. I just loooovvvveeee when you do this!     ATS:  It would be easier if my signature thingie would not only print this out, but Yahoo would also let it appear instead of removing it when automated... It's like a swatch of lacet français d'Latine;)     ATS2:  Quoi?  Quid? Je n’entends pas.   >ATS:  We were not wearing togae. [...]  We had an impromptu fashion show, using Regulus’ wardrobe of > > tailored-tradition outfits and my supply of draped-tradition ones, and had a > > great time.   So I was informed - also that our PM particpated.     ATS2:  Indeed he did.  Both gentlemen were very cooperative.  Wish some of my earlier male models had been anywhere near as willing.   I am going to request a similar "fashion show" for the Conventus next year - very imformative and as I have demonstrated, very needed.     ATS2:  Good idea.  It was really a lot of fun.   Warning feeble attempt at humor: my first thought was that you both were wearing tablecloths or sheets - then I realized that they were probably fashioned from such!*laugh*     ATS2:  Oh, no, my dear; they are made from yard goods fresh from your friendly, neighborhood fabric store (or a special supplier).  The khiton is best made from crinkle cotton, or crinkle cotton polyester (if you don’t care about authenticity) .  The chlamys, its female equivalent, the chlaina, the himation, the men’s Roman tunica, the toga, pallium, and often the palla, are normally wool, and the women’s tunica may be wool if desired.  Most of the reenactors seem to avoid wool when possible, partly because of allergy and partly because the reenactments are typically in southern climes in summer...yunno, Nashville-in- August type weather, so they go for cotton or linen, which are sufficiently authentic to pass muster.   The men’s khiton or tunica takes about 3.5 to 4 yards of 45 inch fabric; the women’s takes perhaps six yards of 45 inch fabric pieced, or perhaps a bit less using 56 inch unpieced.  My blue khiton (in the picture you saw) is 45 inch, and pieced vertically.  The woolen peplos requires so much fabric that we cannot make it unless it is pieced.       In all honesty, I do use some linen tablecloths as capes..but only rarely.  Most are not suitable.   > >     ATS:  We hope that the ritual video will eventually make it to some > > website, though probably not a Yahoo list as I think it is too long. [...] As I mentioned to Maior - I cannot wait to see it, I will make a little sacrifice myself then mange loa (Haitian Patios for eating with the gods, a sacrifical rite) with a tray of fruit and cheese;)     ATS2:  Regulus filmed it, so you will have to chat with him...Hortensia previewed some of it, so it must have come out okay.   As for the rest, veritas wins out, and those who truly seek veritas recognize BS when they see it, don't sweat it Magistra mea - if you did not have honorable dignitas you would not be such a good target;)     ATS2:  Trouble is, very few seek the motto of Hahvahd.  (I think it’s Veritas, anyway...) Now i have a guidance counseler to light a fire under     ATS2:  Already?  School just started in your area, didn’t it?  I think some of ours will start Monday, as will Grammatica II...if my students show up, which they have been unwilling to do.  I have registered a couple of Russkies in Sermo I, with more in the pipeline, so I may need  Galerius Aurelianus II to assist.  They are writing to me in Cyrillic...  May also need a pic of our philosopher in a certain uniform to keep them in line.  He knows which one...  ;-)  and tons of other wonderful (NOT) errands and projects (these are wonderful) so I am offline until I return to my humble abode;) Di Novae Romae favent et dona nobis pacem,     ATS2:  Assentior.   Julia   Vale, et valete.

Salve Regule,

I do not think they had the entire system in their minds, but the fact that they pepper "shall" throughout the Constitution in places where obligation seems like the natural sense suggests to me that they were aware of it as a legalese linguistic artifact and employed it in that way. This isn't so extraordinary since we all regularly encounter forms of legalese English in those ubiquitous "fine print" disclaimers that I think all of us have read at least once, out of curiosity.

Vale,

Gualterus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Sempronius Regulus" <asempronius.regulus@...> wrote:
>
> A. Sempronius Regulus Graece sal.
>  
> [Note: I used to speak Latin. My knowledge of it now is reading knowledge. But Scholastica encouraged me to speak and write Latin, and Dexter is one I will also try a bit more at a time with.]
>  
> Looking over the language, English, and grammar, English, I doubt the early founders of Nova Roma had the mastery you think they had. May I ask how you came to that impression?
>  
> Vale,
> A. Sempronius Regulus
>
>
>
>
> From: gualterus_graecus <waltms1@...>
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Religio, politics [was Alembic and Herbalism }
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Friday, August 28, 2009, 7:54 PM
>
>
>  
>
>
>
> Salve Aureliane,
>
> You have illustrated one usage of "shall", but the tense and mood system of English is more complex this. Of course, I can easily understand why there may be confusion now or even during the drafting of the Constitution, since the full system is no longer used in American English and has been falling away in British English for over a century.
>
> "Shall" in the first person and "will" in the second and third persons is used in the indicative simple future.
>
> "shall" in the second or third person and "will" in the first person is used in the indicative future promise/obligation.
>
> In the subjunctive, "shall" and "will" are interchangeable in all persons.
>
> I know I have left out some details because it's been years since I've read Fowler's grammar, but the above inversion of "shall" and "will" depending on whether simple futurity or obligation is intended is the gist of it (in the full-blown version, Fowler outlines three different systems for shall & will).
>
> What is important is to understand that modern American legalese has fossilized the obligative usage of "shall" in the second and third persons, which is what has gotten Cato going. To the extent that he argues that "shall" here indicates obligation he is correct, and I don't doubt the drafters of the Constitution had the same thing in mind since "shall" is otherwise rarely used in American English except to be conspicuous in legalese.
>
> Now, what about the CP and the Constitution? I think the wording is bad, influenced by legalese English, but not taking full stock of the consequences.. If the CP is obligated to have X members, then if it fails this condition does it cease to exist or not? The Constitution also states that the CP will appoint its own members. So, in-line with the general legal principle of interpreting law in a way that does not self-contradict itself, I think the simplest interpretation of the situation is to consider the current CP technically unconstitutional until it corrects the situation by adding the correct number of members on its own.
>
> Now, in fact, I think the easiest solution is to amend the Constitution' s wording since I don't see the correct number of CP members being added anytime in the future. This approach also has the virtue of not stepping on too many people's toes, even though, ancient Roman precedent certainly gives the Senate ultimate power over the priestly colleges.
>
> Vale,
>
> Gualterus
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@ ... wrote:
> >
> >
> > Aurelianus Cato sal.
> >
> > I am not talking about legal precedence but rather the proper interpretation of English as the official business language of Nova Roma.
> >
> > From the very inception of Nov Roma, there has never been a fully stocked college of priest, college of augurs, college of the Arval Brethren, et cetera.  The Sacred Colleges have had higher numbers in the past but many of those individuals never contributed a single article, class, or ritual to the reconstruction and restoration of the Religio Romana.
> >
> > Let us look at the crux of your argument which is the use of the word “shall” in the Nova Roma Constitution.  The word “shall” is a modal verb used to express propositions about the future; this is also true of the word “will”.  Based upon this definition and use (Mirriam-Webster Guide for English Usage), when the NR Constitution was written and amended, this word was used to reflect a future state of the Collegium Pontificum and Nova Roma as a whole.  If the word “shall” was meant to convey a present tense, then it is more likely that the words “must now be” would have been used. 
> >
> > Now since we are Nova ROMA, let us examine the cognate words.  There was no direct cognate for the English word “shall” in the Latin language but there is a Latin word for the word “will”.  That word is “velle” which translates “to wish for” which illustrates that the20ideal goal of our founders was to wish for a complete CP at some time in the future.
> >
> > Finally, let us examine the reality of the Constitution as written by our founders and amended by the successors.  When NR was founded there were two members.  As such, there is no possible way that they could have meant that NR as a political and religious micronation (or as a model res publica) was not meant to function until there were sufficient members to stock every portion as outlined by the Constitution.  Rome was not built in a day and neither is Nova Roma to be built completely in ten years.
> >
> > Now I realize that I should have phrased my early response in this manner rather than making a presumption that you were raised in the same educational tradition as I.  That was a mistake on my part and I regret making it.  I SHALL endeavor to do better and I hope you WILL accept my apology.
> > Vale.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: gequitiuscato <catoinnyc@ ..>
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
> > Sent: Fri, Aug 28, 2009 11:01 am
> > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Religio, politics [was Alembic and Herbalism }
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Cato Aureliane sal.
> >
> > Salve.
> >
> > Up to this point, I thought you were actually interested in discussing the merits of the thing itself. Then we get:
> >
> > "No, I disagree with you. The word of THE DIVINE is definitive, everything else is open to interpretation. "
> >
> > If THE DIVINE wants to, it can defend itself. For us here and now, we have the Constitution:
> >
> > "Legal precedence. This20Constitution shall be the highest legal authority within Nova Roma..."
> >
> > Again, neither you nor anyone else has offered a single response based on our law that shows another valid, logical interpretation. You base your argument on the fact that people disagree with me, and you can certainly continue in that method if it makes you happy. It just isn't a valid argument based on our law.
> >
> > Your remarks about the law and "majority" are disingenuous at best; the law is not made invalid simply because people don't want to believe it or it is uncomfortable or inconvenient. If the majority does believe a law is wrong, then we have a system of repeal and/or amendment that works perfectly well.
> >
> > Not only that, but a vote has not even been taken by the Respublica as a whole regarding the issue of the CP, so it is logically impossible for you to declare that "51%" of anybody or that a "simple majority of NR" agrees or disagrees with what I have said about it. What you mean is that the current government ("the Tribunes...the Consuls, Censores, Praetores") dislikes me and disagrees with me, so I have to accept their disregard of the law as valid.
> >
> > In the *only* vote that *has* taken place, the item failed - under our law, regardless of how you'd like to parse it - so I must by your logic be right, as I led the argument against it.
> >
> > I'm fairly disappointed that I approached you with simple logical argument only to have you retreat back into that sort of "nobody agrees with you so you must20be wrong" mentality.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Cato
> >
>

Salvete
 
Aquila non captat muscas - The eagle doesn't capture flies (don't sweat the small things)

Valete
 
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

Salvete
 
Tiberi Galeri Pauline
 
Vale
 
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

Salvete;
I've spoken to Vedius and read Cassius notes, they've no real understanding of how to draft laws. it's an art. Nor did they know of Roman iurisprudentia.
Tradition is our guide, the tradition of how things were done in Republican Rome.
Saying 'we must obey the law' has nothing to do with Republican Rome nor does parsing 'shall'. I had a long interesting discussion with Cordus about such an attitude. It's a modern one, rather Germanic as has been noted' and a quibbling unproductive one as well,

When we discuss such matters in the CP - vacant religious offices, we look to the model of the past. The Romans could and did leave them open. We would rather wait and have good candidates, strong cultores who will fill their office with devotion and energy.
optime valete
Maior

>
> Salve Regule,
>
> I do not think they had the entire system in their minds, but the fact that they pepper "shall" throughout the Constitution in places where obligation seems like the natural sense suggests to me that they were aware of it as a legalese linguistic artifact and employed it in that way. This isn't so extraordinary since we all regularly encounter forms of legalese English in those ubiquitous "fine print" disclaimers that I think all of us have read at least once, out of curiosity.
>
> Vale,
>
> Gualterus
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Sempronius Regulus" <asempronius.regulus@> wrote:
> >
> > A. Sempronius Regulus Graece sal.
> >  
> > [Note: I used to speak Latin. My knowledge of it now is reading knowledge. But Scholastica encouraged me to speak and write Latin, and Dexter is one I will also try a bit more at a time with.]
> >  
> > Looking over the language, English, and grammar, English, I doubt the early founders of Nova Roma had the mastery you think they had. May I ask how you came to that impression?
> >  
> > Vale,
> > A. Sempronius Regulus
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: gualterus_graecus <waltms1@>
> > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Religio, politics [was Alembic and Herbalism }
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Friday, August 28, 2009, 7:54 PM
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> >
> >
> > Salve Aureliane,
> >
> > You have illustrated one usage of "shall", but the tense and mood system of English is more complex this. Of course, I can easily understand why there may be confusion now or even during the drafting of the Constitution, since the full system is no longer used in American English and has been falling away in British English for over a century.
> >
> > "Shall" in the first person and "will" in the second and third persons is used in the indicative simple future.
> >
> > "shall" in the second or third person and "will" in the first person is used in the indicative future promise/obligation.
> >
> > In the subjunctive, "shall" and "will" are interchangeable in all persons.
> >
> > I know I have left out some details because it's been years since I've read Fowler's grammar, but the above inversion of "shall" and "will" depending on whether simple futurity or obligation is intended is the gist of it (in the full-blown version, Fowler outlines three different systems for shall & will).
> >
> > What is important is to understand that modern American legalese has fossilized the obligative usage of "shall" in the second and third persons, which is what has gotten Cato going. To the extent that he argues that "shall" here indicates obligation he is correct, and I don't doubt the drafters of the Constitution had the same thing in mind since "shall" is otherwise rarely used in American English except to be conspicuous in legalese.
> >
> > Now, what about the CP and the Constitution? I think the wording is bad, influenced by legalese English, but not taking full stock of the consequences.. If the CP is obligated to have X members, then if it fails this condition does it cease to exist or not? The Constitution also states that the CP will appoint its own members. So, in-line with the general legal principle of interpreting law in a way that does not self-contradict itself, I think the simplest interpretation of the situation is to consider the current CP technically unconstitutional until it corrects the situation by adding the correct number of members on its own.
> >
> > Now, in fact, I think the easiest solution is to amend the Constitution' s wording since I don't see the correct number of CP members being added anytime in the future. This approach also has the virtue of not stepping on too many people's toes, even though, ancient Roman precedent certainly gives the Senate ultimate power over the priestly colleges.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Gualterus
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@ ... wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Aurelianus Cato sal.
> > >
> > > I am not talking about legal precedence but rather the proper interpretation of English as the official business language of Nova Roma.
> > >
> > > From the very inception of Nov Roma, there has never been a fully stocked college of priest, college of augurs, college of the Arval Brethren, et cetera.  The Sacred Colleges have had higher numbers in the past but many of those individuals never contributed a single article, class, or ritual to the reconstruction and restoration of the Religio Romana.
> > >
> > > Let us look at the crux of your argument which is the use of the word â€Å"shall� in the Nova Roma Constitution.  The word â€Å"shall� is a modal verb used to express propositions about the future; this is also true of the word â€Å"will�.  Based upon this definition and use (Mirriam-Webster Guide for English Usage), when the NR Constitution was written and amended, this word was used to reflect a future state of the Collegium Pontificum and Nova Roma as a whole.  If the word â€Å"shall� was meant to convey a present tense, then it is more likely that the words â€Å"must now be� would have been used. 
> > >
> > > Now since we are Nova ROMA, let us examine the cognate words.  There was no direct cognate for the English word â€Å"shall� in the Latin language but there is a Latin word for the word â€Å"will�.  That word is â€Å"velle� which translates â€Å"to wish for� which illustrates that the20ideal goal of our founders was to wish for a complete CP at some time in the future.
> > >
> > > Finally, let us examine the reality of the Constitution as written by our founders and amended by the successors.  When NR was founded there were two members.  As such, there is no possible way that they could have meant that NR as a political and religious micronation (or as a model res publica) was not meant to function until there were sufficient members to stock every portion as outlined by the Constitution.  Rome was not built in a day and neither is Nova Roma to be built completely in ten years.
> > >
> > > Now I realize that I should have phrased my early response in this manner rather than making a presumption that you were raised in the same educational tradition as I.  That was a mistake on my part and I regret making it.  I SHALL endeavor to do better and I hope you WILL accept my apology.
> > > Vale.
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: gequitiuscato <catoinnyc@ ..>
> > > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
> > > Sent: Fri, Aug 28, 2009 11:01 am
> > > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Religio, politics [was Alembic and Herbalism }
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Cato Aureliane sal.
> > >
> > > Salve.
> > >
> > > Up to this point, I thought you were actually interested in discussing the merits of the thing itself. Then we get:
> > >
> > > "No, I disagree with you. The word of THE DIVINE is definitive, everything else is open to interpretation. "
> > >
> > > If THE DIVINE wants to, it can defend itself. For us here and now, we have the Constitution:
> > >
> > > "Legal precedence. This20Constitution shall be the highest legal authority within Nova Roma..."
> > >
> > > Again, neither you nor anyone else has offered a single response based on our law that shows another valid, logical interpretation. You base your argument on the fact that people disagree with me, and you can certainly continue in that method if it makes you happy. It just isn't a valid argument based on our law.
> > >
> > > Your remarks about the law and "majority" are disingenuous at best; the law is not made invalid simply because people don't want to believe it or it is uncomfortable or inconvenient. If the majority does believe a law is wrong, then we have a system of repeal and/or amendment that works perfectly well.
> > >
> > > Not only that, but a vote has not even been taken by the Respublica as a whole regarding the issue of the CP, so it is logically impossible for you to declare that "51%" of anybody or that a "simple majority of NR" agrees or disagrees with what I have said about it. What you mean is that the current government ("the Tribunes...the Consuls, Censores, Praetores") dislikes me and disagrees with me, so I have to accept their disregard of the law as valid.
> > >
> > > In the *only* vote that *has* taken place, the item failed - under our law, regardless of how you'd like to parse it - so I must by your logic be right, as I led the argument against it.
> > >
> > > I'm fairly disappointed that I approached you with simple logical argument only to have you retreat back into that sort of "nobody agrees with you so you must20be wrong" mentality.
> > >
> > > Vale,
> > >
> > > Cato
> > >
> >
>

Salvete
 
I asked one of the Praetors to do something about Maior and they called what she does free speech.
 
Now Cato is discussing things that some suggest he drop or they will ask for his moderation.
 
I wonder if they will get the same answer on Cato that I did not Maior?
 
Valete
 
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

 A. Tullia Scholastica M. Hortensiae Majori quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
 

-Maior Scholasticae Juliaque spd;
 I tried to send my pics last night to you both, and Regulus, Piscinus, Aurelianus, great times:)

    ATS:  ?  I didn’t receive anything from you.  

 Scholastica, ignore the BA crowd, they are 13 year old boys, trying to shock and horrify and degrade anyone smarter, abler than they to pull them down to the lowest level.

    ATS:  Now, now; some of them aren’t OLD enough mentally for Bar Mitzvah.  Or Bat Mitzvah, either.  Trouble is, lots of people seem to think that they are the cat’s meow, and the font of all wisdom.  I know very well what they are up to.  I encountered some of it when I was a new citizen.  
 
Hm, I've got to get a toga made, mine wrap turned out to be a semi-palla, ugh. The fashion show was wonderful, Lentulus is the princeps of wrapping a toga!

I had the most wonderful time, the very best discussions, even a pic of great Latin table graffiti. Amicae it was a privilege and I know it will just build and build until we have the best Conventus in the entire states where the gods and Latin and Romanitas are truly celebrated.


    ATS:  We did have a good time.  No one should expect that a first conventus would be huge, especially when organized on such short notice.  

 now i've got to prep for Latin class.

    ATS:  Good!  Keep it up!  

 optime valete
 Maior

Vale, et valete.

>
> Salve Magistra amica,
>
> >quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
>
> I just loooovvvveeee when you do this! It's like a swatch of lacet français d'Latine;)
>
> >ATS:  We were not wearing togae. [...]  We had an impromptu fashion show, using Regulus’ wardrobe of
> > > tailored-tradition outfits and my supply of draped-tradition ones, and had a
> > > great time.  
>
> So I was informed - also that our PM particpated. I am going to request a similar "fashion show" for the Conventus next year - very imformative and as I have demonstrated, very needed. Warning feeble attempt at humor: my first thought was that you both were wearing tablecloths or sheets - then I realized that they were probably fashioned from such!*laugh*
>
> > >     ATS:  We hope that the ritual video will eventually make it to some
> > > website, though probably not a Yahoo list as I think it is too long. [...]
>
> As I mentioned to Maior - I cannot wait to see it, I will make a little sacrifice myself then mange loa (Haitian Patios for eating with the gods, a sacrifical rite) with a tray of fruit and cheese;)
>
> As for the rest, veritas wins out, and those who truly seek veritas recognize BS when they see it, don't sweat it Magistra mea - if you did not have honorable dignitas you would not be such a good target;)
>
>
> Now i have a guidance counseler to light a fire under and tons of other wonderful (NOT) errands and projects (these are wonderful) so I am offline until I return to my humble abode;)
>
> Di Novae Romae favent et dona nobis pacem,
>
> Julia
>

  
    

Salve Pauline,

Perhaps you haven't yet seen the post where I told Lentulus that
Cato's posts are also protected free speech? Keep reading. When you
get to it, I'm sure your apology for the implied insult will be
swiftly forthcoming.

Vale,

-- Marinus

Timothy or Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@...> writes:

>
> Salvete
>
>
>
> I asked one of the Praetors to do something about Maior and they
> called what she does free speech.
>
>
>
> Now Cato is discussing things that some suggest he drop or they will
> ask for his moderation.
>
>
>
> I wonder if they will get the same answer on Cato that I did not Maior?
>
>
>
> Valete
>
>
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>

CN-EQVIT-MARINVS

Cato Marcae hortensiae sal.

Salve.

That's all very interesting, except that we are not ancient Romans. We are modern, and we have an Enlightenment-era-style written document that holds supreme legal authority - something the Romans did not have. Tradition is *not* our "guide". We have law, written law, and whether or not that is particularly Roman enough for your taste is of absolutely no consequence other than to spur you to try to change that fact if you desire to do so.

In fact, I am all for the repeal of the Constitution to move us closer to a Roman concept of law - as several of my law reform suggestions should have shown you - but the automatic assumption that such a move is *necessary* for us to act in a Roman manner is ridiculous, just as claiming that donning a toga makes a person inherently *more* Roman is ridiculous.

You may "discuss...matters" all you like, but it does not excuse you from obeying the law.

No-one is forcing anyone to do anything, but the College of Pontiffs is not truly valid until it fulfills the requirements placed on it by the Constitution. The ancient Romans may indeed have left pontifices vacant. Our law does not afford us that luxury. If you don't like that, change it by a vote of the People.

Vale,

cato

M. Hortensia G. Equitio sd;
call me Maior or Hortensia, that's the Roman form of address.

Oh gods you seem to be oblivious that laws are interpreted by people. Cato what you say about the validity of the college of pontiffs is simply one man's opinion - your opinion and your opinion only, It is not a fact.

Additionally you don't seem to know or understand that in interpreting law, courts take note of custom. Cordus, Albucius, Complutensis,myself have all studied the law. Ask any of them.

As Marinus said, you fancy yourself a lawyer, but you're not. And you keep repeating these silly assertions.

Nova Roma is dedicated to worshipping the gods and the revival of polytheistic roman culture.

You are interested in neither ; I have no idea why you are here.
vale
Maior

>
> Cato Marcae hortensiae sal.
>
> Salve.
>
> That's all very interesting, except that we are not ancient Romans. We are modern, and we have an Enlightenment-era-style written document that holds supreme legal authority - something the Romans did not have. Tradition is *not* our "guide". We have law, written law, and whether or not that is particularly Roman enough for your taste is of absolutely no consequence other than to spur you to try to change that fact if you desire to do so.
>
> In fact, I am all for the repeal of the Constitution to move us closer to a Roman concept of law - as several of my law reform suggestions should have shown you - but the automatic assumption that such a move is *necessary* for us to act in a Roman manner is ridiculous, just as claiming that donning a toga makes a person inherently *more* Roman is ridiculous.
>
> You may "discuss...matters" all you like, but it does not excuse you from obeying the law.
>
> No-one is forcing anyone to do anything, but the College of Pontiffs is not truly valid until it fulfills the requirements placed on it by the Constitution. The ancient Romans may indeed have left pontifices vacant. Our law does not afford us that luxury. If you don't like that, change it by a vote of the People.
>
> Vale,
>
> cato
>

Salve Marinus
 
As you will note the subject line had a question mark so I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. You also know full well that I never insult Marines so there is no need to apologize. 
I do call them as I see them. The friends of TPTB  seem to get away with far more than other people do. 
 
It's my opinion and I am entitled to it.
 
Vale
 
Paulinus
 

---

To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
From: gawne@...
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 22:35:43 -0400
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Selective moderation?

 

Cato Marcae Hortensiae sal.

Salve.

Then prove to me otherwise using our law.

First it was "tradition" and now it's "interpretation" that should be our guide? You don't seem to understand that this is not a court, so there is no interpretation to be had. There is only the written word of the Constitution.

The Constitution does not recognize any authority higher than itself, and if an "interpretation" conflicts with the Constitution, the Constitution holds. If a "tradition" conflicts with the Constitution, the Constitution holds - even if, unfortunately, that "tradition" may be quite Roman. This is why - among other reasons - I have advocated the repeal of the Constitution for so long.

And is Roman iurisprudence suddenly not a part of "polytheistic [R]oman culture"?

Vale,

Cato

P.S. - how exactly can you be so sure that I have not studied law? GEC

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> M. Hortensia G. Equitio sd;
> call me Maior or Hortensia, that's the Roman form of address.
>
> Oh gods you seem to be oblivious that laws are interpreted by people. Cato what you say about the validity of the college of pontiffs is simply one man's opinion - your opinion and your opinion only, It is not a fact.
>
> Additionally you don't seem to know or understand that in interpreting law, courts take note of custom. Cordus, Albucius, Complutensis,myself have all studied the law. Ask any of them.
>
> As Marinus said, you fancy yourself a lawyer, but you're not. And you keep repeating these silly assertions.
>
> Nova Roma is dedicated to worshipping the gods and the revival of polytheistic roman culture.
>
> You are interested in neither ; I have no idea why you are here.
> vale
> Maior
>

C. Petronius Dexter M. Iulio Scaevae plurimam dicit salutem,

> Di te familiaque incolumem custodiant!

Your formula is not correct:
Di te familiamque incolumes custodiant!

Familia at the accusative and incolumes too, but at the accusative plurial because "incolumes" are "te familiamque"...

Athletice vale.
C. Petronius Dexter

C. Petronius C. Catoni s.p.d.,

> That's all very interesting, except that we are not ancient Romans. We are modern, and we have an Enlightenment-era-style written document that holds supreme legal authority - something the Romans did not have. Tradition is *not* our "guide".

This sentence is "your" advice, so, please, in place to "our" write "my".

Because for me you are wrong. For example, in religious matter, mainly in matter of the religio Romana, tradition is all. No tradition, no religion. In the CP we work to restaure the Roman rites, rituals and prayers from ancient sources.

And to deny the authority or the validity of the CP seems a political act against Nova Roma and her constitutional patterns.

If the CP was not the CP in the spirit of the founders, why do you think that Cassius Julianus was the first pontifex maximus?

The CP, even incomplete, is the CP of Nova Roma. So you must respect it or at least ignore it, but you have not to deny it.

Vale.
C. Petronius Dexter
Flamen Portunalis

Lentulus Ti. Galerio ces. sal. That's correct Censor! You will not be censored :-) Gratias tibi! Et vale! Lentulus --- Sab 29/8/09, Timothy or Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@...> ha scritto: Da: Timothy or Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@...> Oggetto: RE: [Nova-Roma] Put Your Name In Vocative! A: "Nova-Roma" <nova-roma@yahoogroups.com> Data: Sabato 29 agosto 2009, 04:09   Salvete   Tiberi Galeri Pauline   Vale   Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

Lentulus Hortensiae s. p. d. In vocativo casu tuum recte dixisti nomen! Gratias tibi ago et laudo! VALE! --- Sab 29/8/09, rory12001 <rory12001@...> ha scritto: Da: rory12001 <rory12001@...> Oggetto: [Nova-Roma] Re: Put Your Name In Vocative! A: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com Data: Sabato 29 agosto 2009, 02:32   Salve In vocativo caso mihi nomen est Hortensia. Heu, tempore rei publicae feminae non praenomina fuerunt. Hodie feliciter Novis Romanis praenomina cognomina sunt;-) vale Maior > > Salve, > Thanks. May I have a note to show my wife? > > "The man may be the head of the household but the woman is the neck. She turns it anyway she wants." [something like that from the American movie, "My Big Fat Greek Wedding"]. >   > --- On Fri, 8/28/09, Cn. Cornelius Lentulus <cn_corn_lent@ ...> wrote: > > > From: Cn. Cornelius Lentulus <cn_corn_lent@ ...> > Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Put Your Name In Vocative! > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com > Date: Friday, August 28, 2009, 11:54 PM > > >   > > > > > > > > > Lentulus Sempronio sal. > > Perfect. > > You are a vocative genious. > > > :-) > > > VALE! > > > --- Ven 28/8/09, A. Sempronius Regulus <asempronius. regulus@yahoo. com> ha scritto: > > > Da: A. Sempronius Regulus <asempronius. regulus@yahoo. com> > Oggetto: Re: [Nova-Roma] Put Your Name In Vocative! > A: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com > Data: Venerdì 28 agosto 2009, 23:27 > > >   > > > > > > > Aule Semproni Regule > > > > >   >

Cn. Lentulus pontifex Quiritibus sal.


What a great thing is that you are not alone! To be Roman, to feel Roman, to dream about a living Roman culture... and the people in the world just look at you while they don't understand the deep desire in your heart.

But you discover Nova Roma, the community where everybody is just like you!

You are not alone anymore. We are a great family of Romans, and step by step, slowly, we learn to appreciate each other's company, because there is no other way to find our true Roman selves, except to find it in the eyes of our fellow Nova Romans.

Love your fellow Nova Roman, because they are who make you Roman, they are who see you Roman.

Please pray with me if you feel what I'm talking about.

"Oh Gods Immortal, give me strength and patience to accept, to value and love my fellow Nova Romans, however they aren't such as I'd like to see them, they are my brothers and sisters, they are my fellow-travellers in the Roman Way. Bless Nova Roma, my spiritual fatherland, to which I'm faithful until death, with joy, happiness and harmony!".

Enjoy the day - or the night!


Curate, uti valeatis!


Cn. Cornelius Lentulus, pont., sac. Concordiae

 A. Tullia Scholastica Cn. Cornelio Lentulo quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
 

Lentulus omnibus sal.


Now, the second part of the game. The dative case, used often  atthe beginnings of the letters, right in this letter: "Lentulus omnibus": "Lentulus to all".

The dative case is a grammatical case of the indirect object generally used to indicate the noun to whom something is given. For example, in "Brutus gave a book to Cassius".

Here are the basic and very general rules for making a dative in singular:
 
If a word ends in "-us", then the dative ends in "-o". "Tullius" becomes "Tullio".
If a word ends in "-a", then the dative ends in "-ae". "Livia" becomes "Liviae".
If a word ends in "-o", then the dative ends in "-oni". "Cicero" becomes "Ciceroni".
If a word ends in "-ns", then the dative ends in "-nti". "Sapiens" becomes "Sapienti".
 
Many other words change their ending to "-i" whose rules are more difficult and are not detailed here. Here are some just for example:
 
"Senatus" in dative is "Senatui",
"Venus" in dative is "Veneri",
"exercitus" in dative is "exercitui",
"homo" in dative is "homini",
"consul" in dative is "consuli",
"praetor" in dative is "praetori",
"aedilis" in dative is "aedili", and so on.

For more information, visit our website and look:
http://novaroma.org/nr/Dative

    ATS:  Aw, Lentule, you’re making it quite challenging for them!  Quick clues:  most names are in one of the first three Latin substantive groups, called declensions, whereas other words may be in the fourth or fifth groups.  Many very common words, such as census and Senatus and exercitus, are in the fourth group, or declension, which is why they may look a little different from the others.  The third group is large, and varied, which is why Venus and homo do not follow the rule above for names ending in -o (Cicero, Ciceronis).  

    My name in the dative is A. Tulliae Scholasticae; as you well know, the standard praenomina are abbreviated in proper Latin, not spelled out in full, but if spelled out, my praenomen would be Aulae in the dative.  In the vocative, of course, it is the same as the nominative:  A. Tullia Scholastica.  

    De casu vocativo nominum Gnaei Gaiique aliquem difficultatem esse puto; in nomine Gaio, littera I est vocalis in hiatu (Gáïus), nec consonans nec vocalis in diphthongo.  De Gnaeo recte dicis nomen antiquius Gnaivod (casu ablativo) esse; ut puto, secundum regulam, vocativum casum formae temporis classici Gnaee esse debet.  


I also recommend:
http://novaroma.org/nr/Declensions


AAAAAAAAAND NOW:

Put your name into the dative, like I put mine.

To Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus ---> Gnaeo Cornelio Lentulo.

    ATS:  In a little over a week, my Grammatica Latina I class will face the joys of declensions and conjugations...


VALETE NOVI ROMANI!

Vale, praeceptor Lentule, et valete!



 
  
    

C. Petronius Cn. Lentulum salute impertit plurima,

> AAAAAAAAAND NOW:
> Put your name into the dative, like I put mine.
> To Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus ---> Gnaeo Cornelio Lentulo.

Gaio Petronio both Dextro or Dextero are correct.

Athletice vale.
C. Petronius Dexter

>AAAAAAAAAND NOW: >Put your name into the dative, like I put mine. >To Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus ---> Gnaeo Cornelio Lentulo. >VALETE NOVI ROMANI!

Salve, Lentulus. This is cool! ;-)

To Publius Annæus Constantinus Placidus -> Publio Annæo Constantino Placido. I'm Italian, it's very easy for me. :-)

Bene vale,
Placidus

M. Moravius Piscinus cultoribus Deorum et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit: Bonam habete Fortunam.

Hodie est ante diem IV Kalendas Septembres; haec dies comitialis est:

AUC 865 / 112 CE: Hadrian gives the title Augusta to his mother-in-law Salonina Matidia.

Salonina Matidia was the niece of Emperor Trajan, being the daughter of his sister Ulpia Marciana. When her husband, Praetor G. Saloninus Matidius Patruinus, died Ulpia went to live with her brother. Matidia was only ten years old at the time. With no children of his own Trajan treated his niece Matidia as his daughter. The Emperor brought her on his travels and came to value her as one of his counselors. Matidia first married L. Vibius Sabinus, by which she had two daughters. Her younger daughter, Vibia Sabina, married Hadrian. When Vibius Sabinus died sometime after 86 CE Matidia next married L. Scribonius Libo Rupilio Frugi who became consul in 88 CE. She had two more daughters from her second marriage. Rupilia Faustina married Consul M. Annius Verus and Rupilia Annia married Consul L. Fundanius Lamia Aelianus. On 29 August 112 CE the title of Augusta was bestowed on Matidia. When her uncle Trajan died without an apparent heir in 117 CE, Matidia was instrumental in having Trajan adopt Hadrian post mortem and thus secured the throne for Hadrian. She died two years later, in 119 CE. Her son-in-law and second cousin, Hadrian, gave her funeral oration and had the Senate deify Matidia. Soon afterward he built the Temple of Matidia just north-east of the Pantheon that he had built for Trajan. Matidia's temple is commemorated on one of Hadrian's coins.


ROMAN ATTITUDES TOWARDS OATHS

"On the strict observance by the Romans of the sanctity of an oath; and also the story of the ten prisoners whom Hannibal sent to Rome under oath: An oath was regarded and kept by the Romans as something inviolable and sacred. This is evident from many of their customs and laws, and this tale which I shall tell may be regarded as no slight support of the truth of the statement. After the battle of Cannae Hannibal, commander of the Carthaginians, selected ten Roman prisoners and sent them to the city, instructing them and agreeing that, if it seemed good to the Roman people, there should be an exchange of prisoners, and that for each captive that one side should receive in excess of the other side, there should be paid a pound and a half of silver. Before they left, he compelled them to take oath that they would return to the Punic camp, if the Romans would not agree to an exchange. The ten captives come to Rome. They deliver the message of the Punic commander in the senate. The senate refused an exchange. The parents, kinsfolk and connexions of the prisoners amid embraces declared that they had returned to their native land in accordance with the law of postliminium, and that their condition of independence was complete and inviolate; they therefore besought them not to think of returning to the enemy. Then eight of their number rejoined that they had no just right of postliminium, since they were bound by an oath, and they at once went back to Hannibal, as they had sworn to do. The other two remained in Rome, declaring that they had been released and freed from their obligation because, after leaving the enemy's camp, they had returned to it as if for some chance reason, but really with intent to deceive, and having thus kept the letter of the oath, they had come away again unsworn. This dishonourable cleverness of theirs was considered so shameful, that they were generally despised and reprobated; and later the censors punished them with all possible fines and marks of disgrace, on the ground that they had not done what they had sworn to do. Furthermore Cornelius Nepos, in the fifth book of his Examples, has recorded also that many of the senators recommended that those who refused to return should be sent to Hannibal under guard, but that the motion was defeated by a majority of dissentients. He adds that, in spite of this, those who had not returned to Hannibal were so infamous and hated that they became tired of life and committed suicide." ~ A. Gellius, Noctes Atticae 6. 18


LESSER ROMAN GODS

"Dividing man's entire existence amongst separate powers even from his conception in the womb: so that there is a god Consevius, to preside over concubital generation; and Fluviona, to preserve the (growth of the) infant in the womb; after these come Vitumnus and Sentinus, through whom the babe begins to have life and its earliest sensation; then Diespiter, by whose office the child accomplishes its birth. But when women begin their parturition, Candelifera also comes in aid, since childbearing requires the light of the candle; and other goddesses there are who get their names from the parts they bear in the stages of travail. There were two Carmentas likewise, according to the general view: to one of them, called Postverta, belonged the function of assisting the birth of the introverted child; while the other, Prosa, executed the like office for the rightly born. The god Farinus was so called from (his inspiring) the first utterance; while others believed in Locutius from his gift of speech. Cunina is present as the protector of the child's deep slumber, and supplies to it refreshing rest. To lift them (when fallen) there is Levana, and along with her Rumina. It is a wonderful oversight that no gods were appointed for cleaning up the filth of children. Then, to preside over their first pap and earliest drink you have Potina and Edula; to teach the child to stand erect is the work of Statina, whilst Adeona helps him to come to dear Mamma, and Abeona to toddle off again; then there is Domiduca, (to bring home the bride; ) and the goddess Mens, to influence the mind to either good or evil. They have likewise Volumnus and Voleta, to control the will; Paventina, (the goddess) of fear; Venilia, of hope; Volupia, of pleasure; Praestitia, of beauty. Then, again, they give his name to Peragenor, from his teaching men to go through their work; to Consus, from his suggesting to them counsel. Juventa is their guide on assuming the manly gown, and "bearded Fortune" when they come to full manhood. If I must touch on their nuptial duties, there is Afferenda whose appointed function is to see to the offering of the dowery; but fie on you! you have your Mutunus and Tutunus and Pertunda and Subigus and the goddess Prema and likewise Perfica." ~ Tertullianus, Adv. Nat. 2.11; GRF Varro 156

Christian authors ridiculed the variety of deities that Romans worshipped. At times they referred to a book called De Re divinorum by M. Terrentius Varro, a book that is now lost to us. As they are the only sources to mention some of the lesser deities it is difficult to know whether Romans actually ever did worship them as deities. In most cases these are functional deities, such that they were more likely the names of numina of other deities rather than deities in their own right. While the names of some are repeated, suggesting a common source, others seem to have been the invention of the Christian authors. In some cases the Christians explicitly and sarcasticly obviously did invent names of deities that were never part of the Roman pantheon. How the Christians described some of these lesser deities is obviously slanted by ridicule, and thus we cannot be certain of their actual function. In some cases it is as though they were described as having the very opposite function to one indicated. But then there are a few which we do know from other sources that gives credence to the idea that Varro had mentioned many of these in his books on the religio Romana. The sources we have are just not reliable.


And for today's thought we shall turn to another letter by Seneca, Epistle 95:

"Peace of mind is enjoyed only by those who have attained a fixed and unchanging standard of judgment; the rest of mankind continually ebb and flow in their decisions, floating in a condition where they alternately reject things and seek them. And what is the reason for this tossing to and fro? It is because nothing is clear to them, because they make use of a most unsure criterion – rumor."

Salvete!

Gaius Equitius Cato -> Gaio Equitio Catoni

Valete!

Cato

Salve Silvanus,

<Beleive me, I'm not out for some dilusional power trip. I merely want to
give joy to Mars, who has been largely <ignored for so many centuries.

I agree. I've been to Greece several times and have purchased many statues
of Greek Gods. They never had any Ares statues.
After about 10 years of searching, a friend of mine surprised me with a
statue of Mars. He found a beautiful bronze statue of Mars in a store in
Germany. So he now has a place of honour on my altar next to Venus.

Vale,
Diana Aventina

Good morning et salve, Marius Silvanus,

> I have been in NR since June and speak only elementary Latin, but I >have studied and lived the Roman way for most of my life and have >developed a personal relationship with the great Mars in many of his >forms.

Mars was a diety my father held close to his heart and revered also, my eldest brother still does last I heard as do many others. While Sol Invictus is also a part of the cultus famiglia it is one that a)certain areas I know little of b) my involvement I am severely limited to discuss. However Venus, and her aspects, are a big part of our cultus. Both men and women, and her following would be incomplete without Mars.
In the Venus Gentrix Temple he has a prominent place as Venus herself holds him in highest regards as Mars does Venus.

>[...]I merely want to give joy to Mars, who has been largely ignored for >so many centuries.

This is noble! I am glad to hear this and applaud your reverence towards this powerful God! Devotion to the cultus in general has declined over the centuries for various reasons as you well know - sometimes on pain of death and other persecution - but there have always been those who remember him and worship him. More than you may know, many have been military men who on the outside may appear as Yahwists but still take time to reflect on Mars.

I invite you to contribute an article on Mars for the Venus Genetrix Temple - it would be most welcome. If it meets the criteria, it may be approved for the NR website also. If you are interested I will email you in privatum.

Cúrá ut valéas atque di te incolumes custodiant,
Julia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, william horan <teach_mentor@...> wrote:
>
> I have been in NR since June and speak only elementary Latin, but I have studied and lived the Roman way for most of my life and have developed a personal relationship with the great Mars in many of his forms. I meditate on this diety daily and am able to invoke his spirit at his pleasure. I am no expert, but have learned much about how to commune & pay respect to this diety and about many of the forms, traditions and holidays involved. If there is no one more worthy or willing, I will be honored to assume some minor post as a lower priest to him in order to help Romans or anyone understand how to ebhance their interaction with this diety. I know I have to be in NR for 6 months before I can even be considered for any position. Beleive me, I'm not out for some dilusional power trip. I merely want to give joy to Mars, who has been largely ignored for so many centuries.
>  
> Quintus Marius Silvanus
>

OK, I'll keep playing this game:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ARES-Mars-STATUE-Greek-Roman-God-of-War-Bronze-12-5_W0QQitemZ360166838412QQcmdZViewItemQQptZArt_Sculpture?hash=item53db9dd08c&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1262 --- On Sat, 8/29/09, luciaiuliaaquila <dis_pensible@...> wrote: From: luciaiuliaaquila <dis_pensible@...> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: A call for priests To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, August 29, 2009, 1:07 PM   Good morning et salve, Marius Silvanus, > I have been in NR since June and speak only elementary Latin, but I >have studied and lived the Roman way for most of my life and have >developed a personal relationship with the great Mars in many of his >forms. Mars was a diety my father held close to his heart and revered also, my eldest brother still does last I heard as do many others. While Sol Invictus is also a part of the cultus famiglia it is one that a)certain areas I know little of b) my involvement I am severely limited to discuss. However Venus, and her aspects, are a big part of our cultus. Both men and women, and her following would be incomplete without Mars. In the Venus Gentrix Temple he has a prominent place as Venus herself holds him in highest regards as Mars does Venus. >[...]I merely want to give joy to Mars, who has been largely ignored for >so many centuries. This is noble! I am glad to hear this and applaud your reverence towards this powerful God! Devotion to the cultus in general has declined over the centuries for various reasons as you well know - sometimes on pain of death and other persecution - but there have always been those who remember him and worship him. More than you may know, many have been military men who on the outside may appear as Yahwists but still take time to reflect on Mars. I invite you to contribute an article on Mars for the Venus Genetrix Temple - it would be most welcome. If it meets the criteria, it may be approved for the NR website also. If you are interested I will email you in privatum. Cúrá ut valéas atque di te incolumes custodiant, Julia --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, william horan <teach_mentor@ ....> wrote: > > I have been in NR since June and speak only elementary Latin, but I have studied and lived the Roman way for most of my life and have developed a personal relationship with the great Mars in many of his forms. I meditate on this diety daily and am able to invoke his spirit at his pleasure. I am no expert, but have learned much about how to commune & pay respect to this diety and about many of the forms, traditions and holidays involved. If there is no one more worthy or willing, I will be honored to assume some minor post as a lower priest to him in order to help Romans or anyone understand how to ebhance their interaction with this diety. I know I have to be in NR for 6 months before I can even be considered for any position. Beleive me, I'm not out for some dilusional power trip. I merely want to give joy to Mars, who has been largely ignored for so many centuries. >   > Quintus Marius Silvanus >

Paulinus omnibus sal.
 
Tiberio Galerio Paulino
 
Valete

 

---

To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
From: cn_corn_lent@...
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 07:12:30 +0000
Subject: [Nova-Roma] The Dative - Put Your Name In Dative!

 

Salvéte omnes,

The last stoic meditation of Marcus Aurelius seemed to a self fulfilling prophecy in Nova Roma yesterday. Interesting.

For today's offering, first a quote and then an excerpt:

"It's our fault: we ensure that it pays people to be wicked, because we're too keen to be said to be good and generous."
Demipho to Geta, from the comedy, Phormio, by Terence.



Lucan's Pharsalia
BOOK V
The Oracle.
Thus had the smiles of Fortune and her frowns
Brought either chief to Macedonian shores
Still equal to his foe. From cooler skies
Sank Atlas' daughters down, and Haemus' slopes
Were white with winter, and the day drew nigh
Devoted to the god who leads the months,
And marking with new names the book of Rome,
When came the Fathers from their distant posts
By both the Consuls to Epirus called
Ere yet the year was dead: a foreign land
Obscure received the magistrates of Rome,
And heard their high debate. No warlike camp
This; for the Consul's and the Praetor's axe
Proclaimed the Senate-house; and Magnus sat
One among many, and the state was all.

When all were silent, from his lofty seat
Thus Lentulus began, while stern and sad
The Fathers listened: "If your hearts still beat
With Latian blood, and if within your breasts
Still lives your fathers' vigour, look not now
On this strange land that holds us, nor enquire
Your distance from the captured city: yours
This proud assembly, yours the high command
In all that comes. Be this your first decree,
Whose truth all peoples and all kings confess;
Be this the Senate. Let the frozen wain
Demand your presence, or the torrid zone
Wherein the day and night with equal tread
For ever march; still follows in your steps
The central power of Imperial Rome.
When flamed the Capitol with fires of Gaul
When Veii held Camillus, there with him
Was Rome, nor ever though it changed its clime
Your order lost its rights. In Caesar's hands
Are sorrowing houses and deserted homes,
Laws silent for a space, and forums closed
In public fast. His Senate-house beholds
Those Fathers only whom from Rome it drove,
While Rome was full. Of that high order all
Not here, are exiles. Ignorant of war,
Its crimes and bloodshed, through long years of peace,
Ye fled its outburst: now in session all
Are here assembled. See ye how the gods
Weigh down Italia's loss by all the world
Thrown in the other scale? Illyria's wave
Rolls deep upon our foes: in Libyan wastes
Is fallen their Curio, the weightier part
Of Caesar's senate! Lift your standards, then,
Spur on your fates and prove your hopes to heaven.
Let Fortune, smiling, give you courage now
As, when ye fled, your cause.

Sic alterna duces bellorum uolnera passos
in Macetum terras miscens aduersa secundis
seruauit fortuna pares. iam sparserat Haemo
bruma niues gelidoque cadens Atlantis Olympo,
instabatque dies qui dat noua nomina fastis
quique colit primus ducentem tempora Ianum.
dum tamen emeriti remanet pars ultima iuris
consul uterque uagos belli per munia patres
elicit Epirum. peregrina ac sordida sedes
Romanos cepit proceres, secretaque rerum
hospes in externis audiuit curia tectis.
nam quis castra uocet tot strictas iure securis,
tot fasces? docuit populos uenerabilis ordo
non Magni partes sed Magnum in partibus esse.
ut primum maestum tenuere silentia coetum,
Lentulus e celsa sublimis sede profatur.
'indole si dignum Latia, si sanguine prisco
robur inest animis, non qua tellure coacti
quamque procul tectis captae sedeamus ab urbis
cernite, sed uestrae faciem cognoscite turbae,
cunctaque iussuri primum hoc decernite, patres,
quod regnis populisque liquet, nos esse senatum.
nam uel Hyperboreae plaustrum glaciale sub Vrsae
uel plaga qua torrens claususque uaporibus axis
nec patitur noctes nec iniquos crescere soles,
si fortuna ferat, rerum nos summa sequetur
imperiumque comes. Tarpeia sede perusta
Gallorum facibus Veiosque habitante Camillo
illic Roma fuit. non umquam perdidit ordo
mutato sua iura solo. maerentia tecta
Caesar habet uacuasque domos legesque silentis
clausaque iustitio tristi fora; curia solos
illa uidet patres plena quos urbe fugauit:
ordine de tanto quisquis non exulat hic est.
ignaros scelerum longaque in pace quietos
bellorum primus sparsit furor: omnia rursus
membra loco redeunt. en, totis uiribus orbis
Hesperiam pensant superi: iacet hostis in undis
obrutus Illyricis, Libyae squalentibus aruis
Curio Caesarei cecidit pars magna senatus.
tollite signa, duces, fatorum inpellite cursum,
spem uestram praestate deis, fortunaque tantos
det uobis animos quantos fugientibus hostem
causa dabat. nostrum exhausto ius clauditur anno:
uos, quorum finem non est sensura potestas,
consulite in medium, patres, Magnumque iubete
esse ducem.' laeto nomen clamore senatus
excipit et Magno fatum patriaeque suumque
inposuit. tunc in reges populosque merentis
sparsus honor, pelagique potens Phoebeia donis
exornata Rhodos gelidique inculta iuuentus

Cúráte ut valéatis atque di vos incolumes custodiant
Julia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "luciaiuliaaquila" <dis_pensible@...> wrote:
>
> Salvéte, amícae et amící, et quiritibusque!
>
>
> For a mid-morning offering:
>
> "Say to yourself in the early morning: I shall meet today ungrateful, violent, treacherous, envious, uncharitable men. All of these things have come upon them through ignorance of real good and ill... I can neither be harmed by any of them, for no man will involve me in wrong, nor can I be angry with my kinsman or hate him; for we have come into the world to work together..."
> Meditations, Marcus Aurelius Book II, part 1
>
> In amicitia,
>
> Julia
>
> P.S. Thank you Aureliane, I am truly honored that you enjoyed the quote;)
>

Salve, Besides being a poet, Lucan was trained as a Stoic philosopher by his teacher L. Anneus Cornutus (known for his allegorical thelogizing of pagan myth and ritual which is reflected in and infuses Lucan's poetry) and by his uncle, Seneca. Vale, A. Sempronius Regulus --- On Sat, 8/29/09, luciaiuliaaquila <dis_pensible@...> wrote: From: luciaiuliaaquila <dis_pensible@...> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Classic Poetry, Prose, Proems, Literature Excerpts To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, August 29, 2009, 1:41 PM   Salvéte omnes, The last stoic meditation of Marcus Aurelius seemed to a self fulfilling prophecy in Nova Roma yesterday. Interesting. For today's offering, first a quote and then an excerpt: "It's our fault: we ensure that it pays people to be wicked, because we're too keen to be said to be good and generous." Demipho to Geta, from the comedy, Phormio, by Terence. Lucan's Pharsalia BOOK V The Oracle. Thus had the smiles of Fortune and her frowns Brought either chief to Macedonian shores Still equal to his foe. From cooler skies Sank Atlas' daughters down, and Haemus' slopes Were white with winter, and the day drew nigh Devoted to the god who leads the months, And marking with new names the book of Rome, When came the Fathers from their distant posts By both the Consuls to Epirus called Ere yet the year was dead: a foreign land Obscure received the magistrates of Rome, And heard their high debate. No warlike camp This; for the Consul's and the Praetor's axe Proclaimed the Senate-house; and Magnus sat One among many, and the state was all. When all were silent, from his lofty seat Thus Lentulus began, while stern and sad The Fathers listened: "If your hearts still beat With Latian blood, and if within your breasts Still lives your fathers' vigour, look not now On this strange land that holds us, nor enquire Your distance from the captured city: yours This proud assembly, yours the high command In all that comes. Be this your first decree, Whose truth all peoples and all kings confess; Be this the Senate. Let the frozen wain Demand your presence, or the torrid zone Wherein the day and night with equal tread For ever march; still follows in your steps The central power of Imperial Rome. When flamed the Capitol with fires of Gaul When Veii held Camillus, there with him Was Rome, nor ever though it changed its clime Your order lost its rights. In Caesar's hands Are sorrowing houses and deserted homes, Laws silent for a space, and forums closed In public fast. His Senate-house beholds Those Fathers only whom from Rome it drove, While Rome was full. Of that high order all Not here, are exiles. Ignorant of war, Its crimes and bloodshed, through long years of peace, Ye fled its outburst: now in session all Are here assembled. See ye how the gods Weigh down Italia's loss by all the world Thrown in the other scale? Illyria's wave Rolls deep upon our foes: in Libyan wastes Is fallen their Curio, the weightier part Of Caesar's senate! Lift your standards, then, Spur on your fates and prove your hopes to heaven. Let Fortune, smiling, give you courage now As, when ye fled, your cause. Sic alterna duces bellorum uolnera passos in Macetum terras miscens aduersa secundis seruauit fortuna pares. iam sparserat Haemo bruma niues gelidoque cadens Atlantis Olympo, instabatque dies qui dat noua nomina fastis quique colit primus ducentem tempora Ianum. dum tamen emeriti remanet pars ultima iuris consul uterque uagos belli per munia patres elicit Epirum. peregrina ac sordida sedes Romanos cepit proceres, secretaque rerum hospes in externis audiuit curia tectis. nam quis castra uocet tot strictas iure securis, tot fasces? docuit populos uenerabilis ordo non Magni partes sed Magnum in partibus esse. ut primum maestum tenuere silentia coetum, Lentulus e celsa sublimis sede profatur. 'indole si dignum Latia, si sanguine prisco robur inest animis, non qua tellure coacti quamque procul tectis captae sedeamus ab urbis cernite, sed uestrae faciem cognoscite turbae, cunctaque iussuri primum hoc decernite, patres, quod regnis populisque liquet, nos esse senatum. nam uel Hyperboreae plaustrum glaciale sub Vrsae uel plaga qua torrens claususque uaporibus axis nec patitur noctes nec iniquos crescere soles, si fortuna ferat, rerum nos summa sequetur imperiumque comes. Tarpeia sede perusta Gallorum facibus Veiosque habitante Camillo illic Roma fuit. non umquam perdidit ordo mutato sua iura solo. maerentia tecta Caesar habet uacuasque domos legesque silentis clausaque iustitio tristi fora; curia solos illa uidet patres plena quos urbe fugauit: ordine de tanto quisquis non exulat hic est. ignaros scelerum longaque in pace quietos bellorum primus sparsit furor: omnia rursus membra loco redeunt. en, totis uiribus orbis Hesperiam pensant superi: iacet hostis in undis obrutus Illyricis, Libyae squalentibus aruis Curio Caesarei cecidit pars magna senatus. tollite signa, duces, fatorum inpellite cursum, spem uestram praestate deis, fortunaque tantos det uobis animos quantos fugientibus hostem causa dabat. nostrum exhausto ius clauditur anno: uos, quorum finem non est sensura potestas, consulite in medium, patres, Magnumque iubete esse ducem.' laeto nomen clamore senatus excipit et Magno fatum patriaeque suumque inposuit. tunc in reges populosque merentis sparsus honor, pelagique potens Phoebeia donis exornata Rhodos gelidique inculta iuuentus Cúráte ut valéatis atque di vos incolumes custodiant Julia --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, "luciaiuliaaquila" <dis_pensible@ ...> wrote: > > Salvéte, amícae et amící, et quiritibusque! > > > For a mid-morning offering: > > "Say to yourself in the early morning: I shall meet today ungrateful, violent, treacherous, envious, uncharitable men. All of these things have come upon them through ignorance of real good and ill... I can neither be harmed by any of them, for no man will involve me in wrong, nor can I be angry with my kinsman or hate him; for we have come into the world to work together..." > Meditations, Marcus Aurelius Book II, part 1 > > In amicitia, > > Julia > > P.S. Thank you Aureliane, I am truly honored that you enjoyed the quote;) >

Salvete omnes,

I sent a link for a Ares-Mars statue. The same statues (actually, all 12 Olympians plus a few more) are in the museum store at the Parthenon in Nashville. I don't know if they have an oline store but the merchant on ebay has them all also. He also has Nordic and Egyptian ones of the same quality.

Valete,
A. Sempronius Regulus

Salve, et salvete,

I can offer to Novi Romani an exquisite marble finished 12" statue of Mars for less than half that price, with much more reasonable shipping.I can offer that exact same statue for $45 plus more reasonable shipping. I give our cultores special pricing.


Vale, et valete,
Julia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Sempronius Regulus" <asempronius.regulus@...> wrote:
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ARES-Mars-STATUE-Greek-Roman-God-of-War-Bronze-12-5_W0QQitemZ360166838412QQcmdZViewItemQQptZArt_Sculpture?hash=item53db9dd08c&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1262
>
> --- On Sat, 8/29/09, luciaiuliaaquila <dis_pensible@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: luciaiuliaaquila <dis_pensible@...>
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: A call for priests
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Saturday, August 29, 2009, 1:07 PM
>
>
>  
>
>
>
> Good morning et salve, Marius Silvanus,
>
> > I have been in NR since June and speak only elementary Latin, but I >have studied and lived the Roman way for most of my life and have >developed a personal relationship with the great Mars in many of his >forms.
>
> Mars was a diety my father held close to his heart and revered also, my eldest brother still does last I heard as do many others. While Sol Invictus is also a part of the cultus famiglia it is one that a)certain areas I know little of b) my involvement I am severely limited to discuss. However Venus, and her aspects, are a big part of our cultus. Both men and women, and her following would be incomplete without Mars.
> In the Venus Gentrix Temple he has a prominent place as Venus herself holds him in highest regards as Mars does Venus.
>
> >[...]I merely want to give joy to Mars, who has been largely ignored for >so many centuries.
>
> This is noble! I am glad to hear this and applaud your reverence towards this powerful God! Devotion to the cultus in general has declined over the centuries for various reasons as you well know - sometimes on pain of death and other persecution - but there have always been those who remember him and worship him. More than you may know, many have been military men who on the outside may appear as Yahwists but still take time to reflect on Mars.
>
> I invite you to contribute an article on Mars for the Venus Genetrix Temple - it would be most welcome. If it meets the criteria, it may be approved for the NR website also. If you are interested I will email you in privatum.
>
> Cúrá ut valéas atque di te incolumes custodiant,
> Julia
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, william horan <teach_mentor@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > I have been in NR since June and speak only elementary Latin, but I have studied and lived the Roman way for most of my life and have developed a personal relationship with the great Mars in many of his forms. I meditate on this diety daily and am able to invoke his spirit at his pleasure. I am no expert, but have learned much about how to commune & pay respect to this diety and about many of the forms, traditions and holidays involved. If there is no one more worthy or willing, I will be honored to assume some minor post as a lower priest to him in order to help Romans or anyone understand how to ebhance their interaction with this diety. I know I have to be in NR for 6 months before I can even be considered for any position. Beleive me, I'm not out for some dilusional power trip. I merely want to give joy to Mars, who has been largely ignored for so many centuries.
> >  
> > Quintus Marius Silvanus
> >
>

Salvete

Again I repeat, I have the same statues, they are called museum collectables and I offer a huge discount for all Novi Romani. Also carry the Celtic, Nordic, Christian and Egyptian statues amongst others. Email me.

Valete,
Julia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Sempronius Regulus" <asempronius.regulus@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete omnes,
>
> I sent a link for a Ares-Mars statue. The same statues (actually, all 12 Olympians plus a few more) are in the museum store at the Parthenon in Nashville. I don't know if they have an oline store but the merchant on ebay has them all also. He also has Nordic and Egyptian ones of the same quality.
>
> Valete,
> A. Sempronius Regulus
>

Salve,

Yes he was. Thank you for adding this information, please feel free to continue doing so;)

Vale,
Julia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Sempronius Regulus" <asempronius.regulus@...> wrote:
>
> Salve,
> Besides being a poet, Lucan was trained as a Stoic philosopher by his teacher L. Anneus Cornutus (known for his allegorical thelogizing of pagan myth and ritual which is reflected in and infuses Lucan's poetry) and by his uncle, Seneca.
> Vale,
> A. Sempronius Regulus
>
> --- On Sat, 8/29/09, luciaiuliaaquila <dis_pensible@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: luciaiuliaaquila <dis_pensible@...>
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Classic Poetry, Prose, Proems, Literature Excerpts
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Saturday, August 29, 2009, 1:41 PM
>
>
>  
>
>
>
> Salvéte omnes,
>
> The last stoic meditation of Marcus Aurelius seemed to a self fulfilling prophecy in Nova Roma yesterday. Interesting.
>
> For today's offering, first a quote and then an excerpt:
>
> "It's our fault: we ensure that it pays people to be wicked, because we're too keen to be said to be good and generous."
> Demipho to Geta, from the comedy, Phormio, by Terence.
>
> Lucan's Pharsalia
> BOOK V
> The Oracle.
> Thus had the smiles of Fortune and her frowns
> Brought either chief to Macedonian shores
> Still equal to his foe. From cooler skies
> Sank Atlas' daughters down, and Haemus' slopes
> Were white with winter, and the day drew nigh
> Devoted to the god who leads the months,
> And marking with new names the book of Rome,
> When came the Fathers from their distant posts
> By both the Consuls to Epirus called
> Ere yet the year was dead: a foreign land
> Obscure received the magistrates of Rome,
> And heard their high debate. No warlike camp
> This; for the Consul's and the Praetor's axe
> Proclaimed the Senate-house; and Magnus sat
> One among many, and the state was all.
>
> When all were silent, from his lofty seat
> Thus Lentulus began, while stern and sad
> The Fathers listened: "If your hearts still beat
> With Latian blood, and if within your breasts
> Still lives your fathers' vigour, look not now
> On this strange land that holds us, nor enquire
> Your distance from the captured city: yours
> This proud assembly, yours the high command
> In all that comes. Be this your first decree,
> Whose truth all peoples and all kings confess;
> Be this the Senate. Let the frozen wain
> Demand your presence, or the torrid zone
> Wherein the day and night with equal tread
> For ever march; still follows in your steps
> The central power of Imperial Rome.
> When flamed the Capitol with fires of Gaul
> When Veii held Camillus, there with him
> Was Rome, nor ever though it changed its clime
> Your order lost its rights. In Caesar's hands
> Are sorrowing houses and deserted homes,
> Laws silent for a space, and forums closed
> In public fast. His Senate-house beholds
> Those Fathers only whom from Rome it drove,
> While Rome was full. Of that high order all
> Not here, are exiles. Ignorant of war,
> Its crimes and bloodshed, through long years of peace,
> Ye fled its outburst: now in session all
> Are here assembled. See ye how the gods
> Weigh down Italia's loss by all the world
> Thrown in the other scale? Illyria's wave
> Rolls deep upon our foes: in Libyan wastes
> Is fallen their Curio, the weightier part
> Of Caesar's senate! Lift your standards, then,
> Spur on your fates and prove your hopes to heaven.
> Let Fortune, smiling, give you courage now
> As, when ye fled, your cause.
>
> Sic alterna duces bellorum uolnera passos
> in Macetum terras miscens aduersa secundis
> seruauit fortuna pares. iam sparserat Haemo
> bruma niues gelidoque cadens Atlantis Olympo,
> instabatque dies qui dat noua nomina fastis
> quique colit primus ducentem tempora Ianum.
> dum tamen emeriti remanet pars ultima iuris
> consul uterque uagos belli per munia patres
> elicit Epirum. peregrina ac sordida sedes
> Romanos cepit proceres, secretaque rerum
> hospes in externis audiuit curia tectis.
> nam quis castra uocet tot strictas iure securis,
> tot fasces? docuit populos uenerabilis ordo
> non Magni partes sed Magnum in partibus esse.
> ut primum maestum tenuere silentia coetum,
> Lentulus e celsa sublimis sede profatur.
> 'indole si dignum Latia, si sanguine prisco
> robur inest animis, non qua tellure coacti
> quamque procul tectis captae sedeamus ab urbis
> cernite, sed uestrae faciem cognoscite turbae,
> cunctaque iussuri primum hoc decernite, patres,
> quod regnis populisque liquet, nos esse senatum.
> nam uel Hyperboreae plaustrum glaciale sub Vrsae
> uel plaga qua torrens claususque uaporibus axis
> nec patitur noctes nec iniquos crescere soles,
> si fortuna ferat, rerum nos summa sequetur
> imperiumque comes. Tarpeia sede perusta
> Gallorum facibus Veiosque habitante Camillo
> illic Roma fuit. non umquam perdidit ordo
> mutato sua iura solo. maerentia tecta
> Caesar habet uacuasque domos legesque silentis
> clausaque iustitio tristi fora; curia solos
> illa uidet patres plena quos urbe fugauit:
> ordine de tanto quisquis non exulat hic est.
> ignaros scelerum longaque in pace quietos
> bellorum primus sparsit furor: omnia rursus
> membra loco redeunt. en, totis uiribus orbis
> Hesperiam pensant superi: iacet hostis in undis
> obrutus Illyricis, Libyae squalentibus aruis
> Curio Caesarei cecidit pars magna senatus.
> tollite signa, duces, fatorum inpellite cursum,
> spem uestram praestate deis, fortunaque tantos
> det uobis animos quantos fugientibus hostem
> causa dabat. nostrum exhausto ius clauditur anno:
> uos, quorum finem non est sensura potestas,
> consulite in medium, patres, Magnumque iubete
> esse ducem.' laeto nomen clamore senatus
> excipit et Magno fatum patriaeque suumque
> inposuit. tunc in reges populosque merentis
> sparsus honor, pelagique potens Phoebeia donis
> exornata Rhodos gelidique inculta iuuentus
>
> Cúráte ut valéatis atque di vos incolumes custodiant
> Julia
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, "luciaiuliaaquila" <dis_pensible@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > Salvéte, amícae et amící, et quiritibusque!
> >
> >
> > For a mid-morning offering:
> >
> > "Say to yourself in the early morning: I shall meet today ungrateful, violent, treacherous, envious, uncharitable men. All of these things have come upon them through ignorance of real good and ill... I can neither be harmed by any of them, for no man will involve me in wrong, nor can I be angry with my kinsman or hate him; for we have come into the world to work together..."
> > Meditations, Marcus Aurelius Book II, part 1
> >
> > In amicitia,
> >
> > Julia
> >
> > P.S. Thank you Aureliane, I am truly honored that you enjoyed the quote;)
> >
>

Our posts crossed. Your first one appeared right after I sent the statue one. --- On Sat, 8/29/09, luciaiuliaaquila <dis_pensible@...> wrote: From: luciaiuliaaquila <dis_pensible@...> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Statues To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, August 29, 2009, 2:09 PM   Salvete Again I repeat, I have the same statues, they are called museum collectables and I offer a huge discount for all Novi Romani. Also carry the Celtic, Nordic, Christian and Egyptian statues amongst others. Email me. Valete, Julia --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, "A. Sempronius Regulus" <asempronius. regulus@. ..> wrote: > > Salvete omnes, > > I sent a link for a Ares-Mars statue. The same statues (actually, all 12 Olympians plus a few more) are in the museum store at the Parthenon in Nashville. I don't know if they have an oline store but the merchant on ebay has them all also. He also has Nordic and Egyptian ones of the same quality. > > Valete, > A. Sempronius Regulus >

Our posts crossed. --- On Sat, 8/29/09, luciaiuliaaquila <dis_pensible@...> wrote: From: luciaiuliaaquila <dis_pensible@...> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Statues To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, August 29, 2009, 2:09 PM   Salvete Again I repeat, I have the same statues, they are called museum collectables and I offer a huge discount for all Novi Romani. Also carry the Celtic, Nordic, Christian and Egyptian statues amongst others. Email me. Valete, Julia --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, "A. Sempronius Regulus" <asempronius. regulus@. ..> wrote: > > Salvete omnes, > > I sent a link for a Ares-Mars statue. The same statues (actually, all 12 Olympians plus a few more) are in the museum store at the Parthenon in Nashville. I don't know if they have an oline store but the merchant on ebay has them all also. He also has Nordic and Egyptian ones of the same quality. > > Valete, > A. Sempronius Regulus >

Salve,
You're interperting the law as you see fit, even if you aren't it does not change the fact that there are not enough people currently in Nova Roma to fill the positions.
It seems to me that we're (NR) still here so apparentnly Pax Deorum has not been disturbed. The Gods don't seem to mind the vacent positions so why do you?
Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant
Nero

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gequitiuscato" <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> Cato Marcae hortensiae sal.
>
> Salve.
>
> That's all very interesting, except that we are not ancient Romans. We are modern, and we have an Enlightenment-era-style written document that holds supreme legal authority - something the Romans did not have. Tradition is *not* our "guide". We have law, written law, and whether or not that is particularly Roman enough for your taste is of absolutely no consequence other than to spur you to try to change that fact if you desire to do so.
>
> In fact, I am all for the repeal of the Constitution to move us closer to a Roman concept of law - as several of my law reform suggestions should have shown you - but the automatic assumption that such a move is *necessary* for us to act in a Roman manner is ridiculous, just as claiming that donning a toga makes a person inherently *more* Roman is ridiculous.
>
> You may "discuss...matters" all you like, but it does not excuse you from obeying the law.
>
> No-one is forcing anyone to do anything, but the College of Pontiffs is not truly valid until it fulfills the requirements placed on it by the Constitution. The ancient Romans may indeed have left pontifices vacant. Our law does not afford us that luxury. If you don't like that, change it by a vote of the People.
>
> Vale,
>
> cato
>