--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Tullia Scholastica" <fororom@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > A. Tullia Scholastica M. Hortensiae Majori quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque
> > bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
> >
> >
> > Salve Nero:
> > first you are free to do whatever you want in your cultus privatus.
> >
> > Anyone here who is familiar with the classics in Latin will tell you the
> > Romans didn't capitalize the d in dea, deus, dii, they didn't capitalize t or
> > v for 'tu''vos' when referring to gods or goddesses, it's common knowledge and
> > we follow their practice.
> >
> > ATS: Now, now; the Romans capitalized everything, largely because they
> > did not have minuscules (small letters, as we know them). There simply was no
> > differentiation between the initial letter of a name, for example, and the
> > rest of it, just as for the most part there was no break between words.
> > Avítus had some things to say about this on the course sites; with luck, you
> > would have copied this information before the server at the AT gave up the
> > ghost.
> >
> > Capitalization conventions are just that, and are specific to a given
> > language: German capitalizes all nouns, whereas it seems that French,
> > Spanish, and others do not capitalize the names of languages (inter alia), for
> > example, or adjectives derived from those names. One should not criticize
> > others for following the conventions of their own language when writing in a
> > non-native language unless it is in an academic context; even Avítus insists
> > that lingua Latína (et al.) be capitalized, although his native tongue
> > apparently does not use this practice.
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > So yes it takes an effort. Look how you used 'sin.' The cultus deorum has no
> > morality. The Romans saw their gods in a patron-client relationship. They
> > would give and you would render them honour. Excessive religiosity and
> > over-scrupulousness was derided as superstitio.
> >
> > ATS: A subsequent post makes a very interesting point on this matter.
> >
> > I know it's a lot to take in, have you read any books by Turcan, Scheid, Jorg
> > Rupke, Beard & North? I think that would help.
> > bene vale in pacem deorum
> > M. Hortensia Maior
> >
> > Vale, et valete.
> >
> >> >
> >> > Salve,
> >> > This is but one man, many many men have studied at Oxford and I'm sure any
> >> one of them could write a paper about anything. Would that mean that we
> >> follow it?
> >> > I understand both his and your point, however it is my way of showing
> >> respect. Another thing, not to attack his way of life but you said yourself
> >> he doesn't follow our religion how does it affect those of us that do?
> >> > Is it really so wrong that I capitolize a pronoun, is that such a monstrous
> >> sin? Personaly I think it is a trivial matter.
> >> > I am not smashing temples and images, I am not trying to change the
> >> religion I am simply changing h to H, s to S and g to G.
> >> > Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant
> >> > Nero
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com> ,
> >> "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Salve Nero;
> >>> > > I've posted below the NRwiki comment about this very thing from my
> >>> friend Cordus, he studied classics at Oxford, is going to be a barrister and
> >>> speaks Latin fluently. He's one of my models for Romanitas. He's not a
> >>> cultor he follows philosophy; the Peripatetic school.
> >>> > > **********************************************************************
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Capitalized pronouns for gods?
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Are we really going to use capital initial letters for pronouns
> >>> referring to gods even in the middle of sentences? I honestly don't see the
> >>> point. This is a Christian invention and has nothing really to do with a
> >>> Roman religious outlook. It risks encouraging people to look at Roman
> >>> traditional religion through Judaeo-Christian spectacles, which isn't
> >>> helpful. Cordus 09:49, 16 July 2006 (CDT)
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > > optime vale
> >>> > > M. Hortensia Maior
> >>> > >
> >>> > > In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com> ,
> >>> "Cato" <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> >>>> > > >
> >>>> > > > Cato Iunio Neroni sal.
> >>>> > > >
> >>>> > > > Salve.
> >>>> > > >
> >>>> > > > No, it is not "wrong" to capitalize a pronoun referring to a godm,
> >>>> and when I
> >>>> > > > talk of Neptunus (or any of the other gods) I will speak of "Him" or
> >>>> "Her" or "Them". Marca
> >>>> > > > Hortensia just likes to play at being more "correct" than anyone
> else.
> >>>> > > >
> >>>> > > > Vale,
> >>>> > > >
> >>>> > > > Cato
> >>>> > > >
> >>>> > > >
> >>>> > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>
> >>>> , "G.IVNIVS NERO" <rikudemyx@> wrote:
> >>>>> > > > >
> >>>>> > > > > Salve,
> >>>>> > > > > Is it so wrong to capitolize things when we're trying to add >>>>>
> respect?
> >>>>> > > > > When I was in school I was taught capitolization shows either a
> >>>>> proper noun or respect, when I or Cato capitolizes it is out of respect
> >>>>> for the Gods.
> >>>>> > > > >
> >>>>> > > > >
> >>>>> > > > >
> >>>>> > > > > It also happens to be a habit I've been in since I became Pagan at
> 11
> >>>>> > > > > Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant
> >>>>> > > > > Nero
> >>>>> > > > >
> >>>>> > > > >
> >>>>> > > > >
> >>>>> > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> >>>>> <mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com> , "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> >>>>>> > > > > >
> >>>>>> > > > > > -Salve Julia;
> >>>>>> > > > > > I saw at your site you will be getting Fauna, Bona Dea, now
> >>>>>> that is wonderful, I'd love her for my lararium! why can't someone make a
> >>>>>> tiny roman temple for a lararium, I'd love it.
> >>>>>> > > > > > optime vale
> >>>>>> > > > > > Maior
> >>>>>> > > > > >
> >>>>>> > > > > > postsciptum; Cato, Neptunus is he, Bona Dea she, the gods;
> >>>>>> gods. That's Roman polytheistic practice. Capitalizing is a practice of
> >>>>>> later judeo-christian cults.
> >>>>>> > > > > >
> >>>>>> > > > > >
> >>>>>> > > > > >
> >>>>>>> > > > > > >
> >>>>>>> > > > > > > Salvé Gai Equiti,
> >>>>>>> > > > > > >
> >>>>>>> > > > > > > I am soooo glad you are pleased! May it bring you much
> >>>>>>> pleasure and good fortune!
> >>>>>>> > > > > > >
> >>>>>>> > > > > > > Valé optimé!
> >>>>>>> > > > > > >
> >>>>>>> > > > > > > Julia
> >>>>>>> > > > > > >
> >>>>>> > > > > >
> >>>>> > > > >
> >>>> > > >
> >>> > >
> >> >
> >
> >
> >
>

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
...
> So yes it takes an effort. Look how you used 'sin.' The cultus deorum has no morality.

...

I think you must be using a very idiosyncratic usage of "morality" here. On the one hand, if you want to see whether what is connoted by the English term was ever observed in Rome, you'll certainly find it--classification of behavior according to what is correct and incorrect exists in every society and every individual. What constituted virtue and piety for Romans was their "morality". On the other hand, Cicero himself coined the term moralis to correspond to the Greek ethos, which broadly means "custom".

Vale,

Gualterus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robin Marquardt <remarq777@...> wrote:
>
> NR Survey 2009
>
> Please use this
> Mail Text. Fill out in short terms and use a highlight color for your text or a
> colored font to make it a bit easier to process your answers.
>
> Roman Name: Tiberius Marcius Quadra
> Province: Guam
> Country: U.S.A.
> Town: Barrigada
> Age: 40
> Marital Status: Divorced
> Children: 3 -5 illegitimate; none that I can lay claim to.
> Religion: Roman Catholic
> Education: Bachelor Program at CapellaUniversity(8
> courses to graduate)
> Profession: Realtor, General Contractor
> NRoman since: July 3, 2004; member since March 17, 2009
> Title and or Function in NR: Citizen
> I am a Tax payer: I contribute through
> tithing.
> If not why: If I was required to pay a tax, I
> probably would opt out, as I see this online community as a valuable
> organization, but not absolute necessary.
>
> 1. Are other members of your family NR members? Not that I know of; If not why: I’m not very close to my
> family members. They’re just there, as I am. When I try to be more interactive,
> it is met with angst, impatience, “I got to go” kind of response.
>
> 2. Do you practice the Religio Romana? Not heavily,
> but I do ask for Caesar’s intersession as part of my saying grace before meals;
> “Bless us o’ Lord and these, thy gifts which we are about to receive from the
> bounty of Christ our Lord, amen. Our
> Father, who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy Name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be
> done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And
> forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And
> lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. Amen. Saint Paul, pray for us; Blessed Diego, pray for us; Chief Matapang,
> pray for us; King Kamehameha, pray for us; Caesar, pray for us.
>
> 3. Hobbies: Drumming, reading, Italian language,
> and cooking.
>
> 4. Skills: Looking good; actually I don’t consider
> myself skilled… I just do.
>
> 5. Special NR interests: Latin grammar &
> language, Roman architecture & design
>
> 6. NR Sodalitas: Not currently; however, I would be
> interests Egressus, Militarium Engineering and Cartography.
>
> 7. How important is NR for you? 10
> (1= not important, 10=very important):
>
> 8. Is your family involved in NR: I don’t have a
> family. I’m a 40 year old divorcee with no children to speak of.
>
> 9. How satisfied are you with NR ? 10
> (1= not satisfied, 10=very satisfied):
>
> 10. Do you think it is important for NR to grow? 10
> (1= not important, 10=very important):
>
> 11. How intense do you follow postings on NR groups and lists? R
> (A= occasional, B=regularly, C=intense):
>
> 12. How often do you post something on NR groups and lists? A
> (A= occasional, B=regularly, C=intense):
>
> 13. How high are the NR taxes for you? I don’t pay
> taxes. I can only afford to give tithe when I have it. I always give 10% tithe
> to local church, charity, and occasionally to online entities like Nova Roma.
> (1= easy bearable, 2=bearable, 3=just right, 4=a little high, 5=way to
> high):
>
> 14. Do you know if other NR members live in your
> vicinity? No
> How many? n/a
>
> 15. How important is it for you to meet other NR members in person? 5
> (1=not important, 5=very important)
>
> 16. How many NR members did you meet in person? None.
>
> 17. Do you live a roman life â€" how do you practice your Romanitas â€" (e.g.
> only online and no real roman practices or I dress roman, follow roman virtues,
> cook roman, read a lot about Rome, etc.) I love and
> perpetuate Roman design, use Blanco Romano granite counter top in my kitchen,
> read Latin reference material, acknowledge my Roman centricity and values,
> summed up… I’m Roman Catholic and proud of it.
>
> 18. What do you like about NR? It’s very existence;
> I like everything about it.
>
> 19. What don't you like about NR? A lack of travel
> opportunities to our mother land Rome, and
> other Roman destinations. NR should offer travel packages on a bi-annual basis
> that bring N. Romans together on a regular basis.
>
> 20. What do you expect from NR? To continue its
> online presence and creating and developing travel packages to Roman
> destinations on a bi-annual basis.
>
> 21. What do you miss in NR? I miss real life
> meetings at Roman destinations on a regular basis via an organized travel
> package.
>
> 22. How much taxes would you personally be willing to pay per year if NR
> would be
> satisfying your expectations completely? I got an
> idea, thanks to Jesus & Mars; hold an online lottery! This lottery would
> serve three purposes: 1) create revenue for Nova Roma 2) pay lottery winners on
> a regular basis and 3) by using a chronological order of membership dates, give
> 10 people a free travel package to the next NR biannual destination. In
> addition to these 10 people, other NR members can attend the travel expense at
> their own expense.
>
> 23. How much would you personally be willing to pay for NR online Latin
> Courses if they would not be for free? $2.50 per
> course, one course per week ($10 per month).
> (Amount per course)
>
> 24. What would you like to see? Suggestions and Ideas please!
> The bi-annual travel packages; online NR lottery.
>
> 25. Would you be interested to participate more active within NR?
> Yes; I suggest emailing NR citizens one activity per
> week to do within the NR website. Make it simple enough that a person can
> partake in an NR activity within 10 minutes. If you offer too much to do, most
> people will just get distracted.
>
> 26. If not, why? n/a
>
> 27. If yes, what can you offer? Time, cooperation,
> regular but minimal participation; again referencing time constraints, and
> AADD.
> Ti.
> Marci Quadra
>

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Nero:
> first you are free to do whatever you want in your cultus privatus.
>
> Anyone here who is familiar with the classics in Latin will tell you the Romans didn't capitalize the d in dea, deus, dii, they didn't capitalize t or v for 'tu''vos' when referring to gods or goddesses, it's common knowledge and we follow their practice.
>
> Now we belong to Nova Roma to follow the gods and Republican Roman culture. Many of my friends who follow philosophy are devoted to Roman culture, Roman values, Roman way of life.
>
> If you just want to worship Iuppiter OM without engaging yourself in Roman culture, you can be a modern neo-pagan, but for the rest of us, it is about living our Romanitas in the modern world.
>
> So yes it takes an effort. Look how you used 'sin.' The cultus deorum has no morality. The Romans saw their gods in a patron-client relationship. They would give and you would render them honour. Excessive religiosity and over-scrupulousness was derided as superstitio.
>
> I know it's a lot to take in, have you read any books by Turcan, Scheid, Jorg Rupke, Beard & North? I think that would help.
> bene vale in pacem deorum
> M. Hortensia Maior
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> > Salve,
> > This is but one man, many many men have studied at Oxford and I'm sure any one of them could write a paper about anything. Would that mean that we follow it?
> > I understand both his and your point, however it is my way of showing respect. Another thing, not to attack his way of life but you said yourself he doesn't follow our religion how does it affect those of us that do?
> > Is it really so wrong that I capitolize a pronoun, is that such a monstrous sin? Personaly I think it is a trivial matter.
> > I am not smashing temples and images, I am not trying to change the religion I am simply changing h to H, s to S and g to G.
> > Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant
> > Nero
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Salve Nero;
> > > I've posted below the NRwiki comment about this very thing from my friend Cordus, he studied classics at Oxford, is going to be a barrister and speaks Latin fluently. He's one of my models for Romanitas. He's not a cultor he follows philosophy; the Peripatetic school.
> > > **********************************************************************
> > >
> > > Capitalized pronouns for gods?
> > >
> > > Are we really going to use capital initial letters for pronouns referring to gods even in the middle of sentences? I honestly don't see the point. This is a Christian invention and has nothing really to do with a Roman religious outlook. It risks encouraging people to look at Roman traditional religion through Judaeo-Christian spectacles, which isn't helpful. Cordus 09:49, 16 July 2006 (CDT)
> > >
> > >
> > > optime vale
> > > M. Hortensia Maior
> > >
> > > In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Cato Iunio Neroni sal.
> > > >
> > > > Salve.
> > > >
> > > > No, it is not "wrong" to capitalize a pronoun referring to a godm, and when I
> > > > talk of Neptunus (or any of the other gods) I will speak of "Him" or "Her" or "Them". Marca
> > > > Hortensia just likes to play at being more "correct" than anyone else.
> > > >
> > > > Vale,
> > > >
> > > > Cato
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "G.IVNIVS NERO" <rikudemyx@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Salve,
> > > > > Is it so wrong to capitolize things when we're trying to add respect?
> > > > > When I was in school I was taught capitolization shows either a proper noun or respect, when I or Cato capitolizes it is out of respect for the Gods.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > It also happens to be a habit I've been in since I became Pagan at 11
> > > > > Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant
> > > > > Nero
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -Salve Julia;
> > > > > > I saw at your site you will be getting Fauna, Bona Dea, now that is wonderful, I'd love her for my lararium! why can't someone make a tiny roman temple for a lararium, I'd love it.
> > > > > > optime vale
> > > > > > Maior
> > > > > >
> > > > > > postsciptum; Cato, Neptunus is he, Bona Dea she, the gods; gods. That's Roman polytheistic practice. Capitalizing is a practice of later judeo-christian cults.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Salvé Gai Equiti,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I am soooo glad you are pleased! May it bring you much pleasure and good fortune!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Valé optimé!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Julia
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robin Marquardt <remarq777@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Nero,
> I'm glad you ask. When I was 8 years old in Hawaii, my mother & I saw objects float around in our living room. I know first hand there is an unseen existence.
>
>
> Thus, when I ask the intercession of Caesar (any Caesar available), Caligula for example, I believe that a higher power (God) uses passed individuals to assist us, the currently living, as part of their assignments, particularly in cases of penance.
>
> Incidentally, I mention Caligula and if you notice a Chief Matapang. Both of these individuals may be in purgatory due to their past behavior and choices. Thus, by my asking for their intersession, I give them an opportunity to correct their mistakes, and perhaps enter Heaven. Also, it was on Caligula's birthday August 31 that I quit ALL my past vices.
>
>
> By the way what is DM.
> Thank you,
> Ti. Marci Quadra
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: G.IVNIVS NERO <rikudemyx@...>
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009 4:49:06 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Caesar was Re: NOVA ROMA SURVEY 09 - My Response
>
>
> Salve,
> I find it interesting that you pray for the intercession of Caesar.
> Do you view him as a saint, DM, a spirit who can intervine on the behalf of god?
> Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant
> Nero
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, Robin Marquardt <remarq777@ ..> wrote:
> >
> > NR Survey 2009
> >
> > Please use this
> > Mail Text. Fill out in short terms and use a highlight color for your text or a
> > colored font to make it a bit easier to process your answers.
> >
> > Roman Name: Tiberius Marcius Quadra
> > Province: Guam
> > Country: U.S.A.
> > Town: Barrigada
> > Age: 40
> > Marital Status: Divorced
> > Children: 3 -5 illegitimate; none that I can lay claim to.
> > Religion: Roman Catholic
> > Education: Bachelor Program at CapellaUniversity( 8
> > courses to graduate)
> > Profession: Realtor, General Contractor
> > NRoman since: July 3, 2004; member since March 17, 2009
> > Title and or Function in NR: Citizen
> > I am a Tax payer: I contribute through
> > tithing.
> > If not why: If I was required to pay a tax, I
> > probably would opt out, as I see this online community as a valuable
> > organization, but not absolute necessary.
> >
> > 1. Are other members of your family NR members? Not that I know of; If not why: I’m not very close to my
> > family members. They’re just there, as I am. When I try to be more interactive,
> > it is met with angst, impatience, â€Å"I got to go� kind of response.
> >
> > 2. Do you practice the Religio Romana? Not heavily,
> > but I do ask for Caesar’s intersession as part of my saying grace before meals;
> > â€Å"Bless us o’ Lord and these, thy gifts which we are about to receive from the
> > bounty of Christ our Lord, amen. Our
> > Father, who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy Name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be
> > done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And
> > forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And
> > lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. Amen. Saint Paul, pray for us; Blessed Diego, pray for us; Chief Matapang,
> > pray for us; King Kamehameha, pray for us; Caesar, pray for us.
> >
> > 3. Hobbies: Drumming, reading, Italian language,
> > and cooking.
> >
> > 4. Skills: Looking good; actually I don’t consider
> > myself skilled… I just do.
> >
> > 5. Special NR interests: Latin grammar &
> > language, Roman architecture & design
> >
> > 6. NR Sodalitas: Not currently; however, I would be
> > interests Egressus, Militarium Engineering and Cartography.
> >
> > 7. How important is NR for you? 10
> > (1= not important, 10=very important):
> >
> > 8. Is your family involved in NR: I don’t have a
> > family. I’m a 40 year old divorcee with no children to speak of.
> >
> > 9. How satisfied are you with NR ? 10
> > (1= not satisfied, 10=very satisfied):
> >
> > 10. Do you think it is important for NR to grow? 10
> > (1= not important, 10=very important):
> >
> > 11. How intense do you follow postings on NR groups and lists? R
> > (A= occasional, B=regularly, C=intense):
> >
> > 12. How often do you post something on NR groups and lists? A
> > (A= occasional, B=regularly, C=intense):
> >
> > 13. How high are the NR taxes for you? I don’t pay
> > taxes. I can only afford to give tithe when I have it. I always give 10% tithe
> > to local church, charity, and occasionally to online entities like Nova Roma.
> > (1= easy bearable, 2=bearable, 3=just right, 4=a little high, 5=way to
> > high):
> >
> > 14. Do you know if other NR members live in your
> > vicinity? No
> > How many? n/a
> >
> > 15. How important is it for you to meet other NR members in person? 5
> > (1=not important, 5=very important)
> >
> > 16. How many NR members did you meet in person? None.
> >
> > 17. Do you live a roman life â€" how do you practice your Romanitas â€" (e.g.
> > only online and no real roman practices or I dress roman, follow roman virtues,
> > cook roman, read a lot about Rome, etc.) I love and
> > perpetuate Roman design, use Blanco Romano granite counter top in my kitchen,
> > read Latin reference material, acknowledge my Roman centricity and values,
> > summed up… I’m Roman Catholic and proud of it.
> >
> > 18. What do you like about NR? It’s very existence;
> > I like everything about it.
> >
> > 19. What don't you like about NR? A lack of travel
> > opportunities to our mother land Rome, and
> > other Roman destinations. NR should offer travel packages on a bi-annual basis
> > that bring N. Romans together on a regular basis.
> >
> > 20. What do you expect from NR? To continue its
> > online presence and creating and developing travel packages to Roman
> > destinations on a bi-annual basis.
> >
> > 21. What do you miss in NR? I miss real life
> > meetings at Roman destinations on a regular basis via an organized travel
> > package.
> >
> > 22. How much taxes would you personally be willing to pay per year if NR
> > would be
> > satisfying your expectations completely? I got an
> > idea, thanks to Jesus & Mars; hold an online lottery! This lottery would
> > serve three purposes: 1) create revenue for Nova Roma 2) pay lottery winners on
> > a regular basis and 3) by using a chronological order of membership dates, give
> > 10 people a free travel package to the next NR biannual destination. In
> > addition to these 10 people, other NR members can attend the travel expense at
> > their own expense.
> >
> > 23. How much would you personally be willing to pay for NR online Latin
> > Courses if they would not be for free? $2.50 per
> > course, one course per week ($10 per month).
> > (Amount per course)
> >
> > 24. What would you like to see? Suggestions and Ideas please!
> > The bi-annual travel packages; online NR lottery.
> >
> > 25. Would you be interested to participate more active within NR?
> > Yes; I suggest emailing NR citizens one activity per
> > week to do within the NR website. Make it simple enough that a person can
> > partake in an NR activity within 10 minutes. If you offer too much to do, most
> > people will just get distracted.
> >
> > 26. If not, why? n/a
> >
> > 27. If yes, what can you offer? Time, cooperation,
> > regular but minimal participation; again referencing time constraints, and
> > AADD.
> > Ti.
> > Marci Quadra
> >
>

>
> Salvete,
>
> There is no reason to have a hangup over the English term "sin". Of the terms you list, Maior, vitium is actually a very close match to biblical "sin". Of course, Jerome decides on peccatus, but that is late usage. Both the Hebrew Chet-Tet-Alef-Tav and Greek hAMARTANH mean to miss the mark, to make an error/mistake. They can be used in a religious sense or secular sense (e.g. against another man, Gen 42:22). Even modern English usage of "sin" has this broad semantic range and is not limited to a narrow Christian religious sense.
>
> Valete,
>
> Gualterus
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> >
> > Salve Nero;
> >
> > please don't be hard on yourself, It's a lifelong project to change our minds our hearts and our culture but that's what's so wonderful.
> >
> >
> >
> > John Scheid is really good in this discussion. Romans had these terms: sacer, profanus, pius, impius, sanctus, vitium.
> >
> >
> >
> > "Impiety was the opposite of piety. It consisted in denying the gods the honours and rank that were rightfully theirs, or in damaging their property by theft (sacrilege, in the strict sense of the term) or by neglect. If one accidentally disturbed the correct performance of a ritual or offended a deity out of ignorance and without meaning to do so, the impiety could be expiated by a sacrifice and possibly by making reparation for the worng. But if the offences was deliberate, it was inexpiable. In this case, the community freed itself from the responsibility by an expiatory sacrifice ..making good the damage; but the guilty person remained forever impious and could never be expiated....the impious offender was 'handed over' to the gods for them to 'do justice' for themselves." p. 27
> >
> >
> >
> > "Piety is justice with regard to the gods" Cicero (On the Nature of the Gods 1.116)
> >
> >
> >
> > "It was a reciprocal social virtue, for the gods also had to fill their obligations." p. 26 Piety "covered the correct relations with parents, friends, and fellow-citizens as well as the correct attitude with regard to the gods."
> >
> >
> >
> > So a good Roman was pious!
> >
> > optime vale
> >
> > Maior
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > - In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rikudemyx" <rikudemyx@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Salve,
> > >
> > > I will never again capitolize a pronoun.
> > > On a side note I am curious if the concept of sin has no place in the Cultus then what would you call the act of defacing a statue of Saturn? What would one call stealing the offerings to Mars, how would one define allowing a temple to fall into disuse?
> > > Would not in modern terms at least that be a sin?
> > > However the authors you gave me seem interesting I will be sure to look them up.
> > > Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Salve Nero:
> > > > first you are free to do whatever you want in your cultus privatus.
> > > >
> > > > Anyone here who is familiar with the classics in Latin will tell you the Romans didn't capitalize the d in dea, deus, dii, they didn't capitalize t or v for 'tu''vos' when referring to gods or goddesses, it's common knowledge and we follow their practice.
> > > >
> > > > Now we belong to Nova Roma to follow the gods and Republican Roman culture. Many of my friends who follow philosophy are devoted to Roman culture, Roman values, Roman way of life.
> > > >
> > > > If you just want to worship Iuppiter OM without engaging yourself in Roman culture, you can be a modern neo-pagan, but for the rest of us, it is about living our Romanitas in the modern world.
> > > >
> > > > So yes it takes an effort. Look how you used 'sin.' The cultus deorum has no morality. The Romans saw their gods in a patron-client relationship. They would give and you would render them honour. Excessive religiosity and over-scrupulousness was derided as superstitio.
> > > >
> > > > I know it's a lot to take in, have you read any books by Turcan, Scheid, Jorg Rupke, Beard & North? I think that would help.
> > > > bene vale in pacem deorum
> > > > M. Hortensia Maior
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Salve,
> > > > > This is but one man, many many men have studied at Oxford and I'm sure any one of them could write a paper about anything. Would that mean that we follow it?
> > > > > I understand both his and your point, however it is my way of showing respect. Another thing, not to attack his way of life but you said yourself he doesn't follow our religion how does it affect those of us that do?
> > > > > Is it really so wrong that I capitolize a pronoun, is that such a monstrous sin? Personaly I think it is a trivial matter.
> > > > > I am not smashing temples and images, I am not trying to change the religion I am simply changing h to H, s to S and g to G.
> > > > > Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant
> > > > > Nero
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Salve Nero;
> > > > > > I've posted below the NRwiki comment about this very thing from my friend Cordus, he studied classics at Oxford, is going to be a barrister and speaks Latin fluently. He's one of my models for Romanitas. He's not a cultor he follows philosophy; the Peripatetic school.
> > > > > > **********************************************************************
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Capitalized pronouns for gods?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Are we really going to use capital initial letters for pronouns referring to gods even in the middle of sentences? I honestly don't see the point. This is a Christian invention and has nothing really to do with a Roman religious outlook. It risks encouraging people to look at Roman traditional religion through Judaeo-Christian spectacles, which isn't helpful. Cordus 09:49, 16 July 2006 (CDT)
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > optime vale
> > > > > > M. Hortensia Maior
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Cato Iunio Neroni sal.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Salve.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > No, it is not "wrong" to capitalize a pronoun referring to a godm, and when I
> > > > > > > talk of Neptunus (or any of the other gods) I will speak of "Him" or "Her" or "Them". Marca
> > > > > > > Hortensia just likes to play at being more "correct" than anyone else.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Vale,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Cato
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "G.IVNIVS NERO" <rikudemyx@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Salve,
> > > > > > > > Is it so wrong to capitolize things when we're trying to add respect?
> > > > > > > > When I was in school I was taught capitolization shows either a proper noun or respect, when I or Cato capitolizes it is out of respect for the Gods.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It also happens to be a habit I've been in since I became Pagan at 11
> > > > > > > > Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant
> > > > > > > > Nero
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > -Salve Julia;
> > > > > > > > > I saw at your site you will be getting Fauna, Bona Dea, now that is wonderful, I'd love her for my lararium! why can't someone make a tiny roman temple for a lararium, I'd love it.
> > > > > > > > > optime vale
> > > > > > > > > Maior
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > postsciptum; Cato, Neptunus is he, Bona Dea she, the gods; gods. That's Roman polytheistic practice. Capitalizing is a practice of later judeo-christian cults.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Salvé Gai Equiti,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I am soooo glad you are pleased! May it bring you much pleasure and good fortune!
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Valé optimé!
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Julia
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> -Salve Gualtere;
> we've discussed this issue before with the term 'orthopraxy' that some terms come pre-loaded with so much cultural baggage, that it is better not to use them.
>
> The same with 'sin', vitium is the better word as it bears no unconscious assumptions. In English 'fault' which the OLD uses to explain 'vitium' is good too.
>
> A good example is the sacrifice of Corvus in Sarmatia; he made an error, a vitium, which he will correct with a piaculum.
>
> Now if I said "he sinned" that would produce an entirely different picture than "he commited a fault, a vitium."
>
> I know your area is early Christianity, but as you are reading Rupke etc...just look to see what they are doing. The best modern scholarship in Roman religion is abandoning judeo-christian terms; orthopraxy, sin etc for neutral language, to explain/understand the cultus deorum on its own basis, not via a Judeo-Christian filter.
> optime vale
> Maior
>
>
> >
> > Salvete,
> >
> > There is no reason to have a hangup over the English term "sin". Of the terms you list, Maior, vitium is actually a very close match to biblical "sin". Of course, Jerome decides on peccatus, but that is late usage. Both the Hebrew Chet-Tet-Alef-Tav and Greek hAMARTANH mean to miss the mark, to make an error/mistake. They can be used in a religious sense or secular sense (e.g. against another man, Gen 42:22). Even modern English usage of "sin" has this broad semantic range and is not limited to a narrow Christian religious sense.
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > Gualterus
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Salve Nero;
> > >
> > > please don't be hard on yourself, It's a lifelong project to change our minds our hearts and our culture but that's what's so wonderful.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > John Scheid is really good in this discussion. Romans had these terms: sacer, profanus, pius, impius, sanctus, vitium.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Impiety was the opposite of piety. It consisted in denying the gods the honours and rank that were rightfully theirs, or in damaging their property by theft (sacrilege, in the strict sense of the term) or by neglect. If one accidentally disturbed the correct performance of a ritual or offended a deity out of ignorance and without meaning to do so, the impiety could be expiated by a sacrifice and possibly by making reparation for the worng. But if the offences was deliberate, it was inexpiable. In this case, the community freed itself from the responsibility by an expiatory sacrifice ..making good the damage; but the guilty person remained forever impious and could never be expiated....the impious offender was 'handed over' to the gods for them to 'do justice' for themselves." p. 27
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Piety is justice with regard to the gods" Cicero (On the Nature of the Gods 1.116)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "It was a reciprocal social virtue, for the gods also had to fill their obligations." p. 26 Piety "covered the correct relations with parents, friends, and fellow-citizens as well as the correct attitude with regard to the gods."
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > So a good Roman was pious!
> > >
> > > optime vale
> > >
> > > Maior
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > - In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rikudemyx" <rikudemyx@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Salve,
> > > >
> > > > I will never again capitolize a pronoun.
> > > > On a side note I am curious if the concept of sin has no place in the Cultus then what would you call the act of defacing a statue of Saturn? What would one call stealing the offerings to Mars, how would one define allowing a temple to fall into disuse?
> > > > Would not in modern terms at least that be a sin?
> > > > However the authors you gave me seem interesting I will be sure to look them up.
> > > > Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Salve Nero:
> > > > > first you are free to do whatever you want in your cultus privatus.
> > > > >
> > > > > Anyone here who is familiar with the classics in Latin will tell you the Romans didn't capitalize the d in dea, deus, dii, they didn't capitalize t or v for 'tu''vos' when referring to gods or goddesses, it's common knowledge and we follow their practice.
> > > > >
> > > > > Now we belong to Nova Roma to follow the gods and Republican Roman culture. Many of my friends who follow philosophy are devoted to Roman culture, Roman values, Roman way of life.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you just want to worship Iuppiter OM without engaging yourself in Roman culture, you can be a modern neo-pagan, but for the rest of us, it is about living our Romanitas in the modern world.
> > > > >
> > > > > So yes it takes an effort. Look how you used 'sin.' The cultus deorum has no morality. The Romans saw their gods in a patron-client relationship. They would give and you would render them honour. Excessive religiosity and over-scrupulousness was derided as superstitio.
> > > > >
> > > > > I know it's a lot to take in, have you read any books by Turcan, Scheid, Jorg Rupke, Beard & North? I think that would help.
> > > > > bene vale in pacem deorum
> > > > > M. Hortensia Maior
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Salve,
> > > > > > This is but one man, many many men have studied at Oxford and I'm sure any one of them could write a paper about anything. Would that mean that we follow it?
> > > > > > I understand both his and your point, however it is my way of showing respect. Another thing, not to attack his way of life but you said yourself he doesn't follow our religion how does it affect those of us that do?
> > > > > > Is it really so wrong that I capitolize a pronoun, is that such a monstrous sin? Personaly I think it is a trivial matter.
> > > > > > I am not smashing temples and images, I am not trying to change the religion I am simply changing h to H, s to S and g to G.
> > > > > > Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant
> > > > > > Nero
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Salve Nero;
> > > > > > > I've posted below the NRwiki comment about this very thing from my friend Cordus, he studied classics at Oxford, is going to be a barrister and speaks Latin fluently. He's one of my models for Romanitas. He's not a cultor he follows philosophy; the Peripatetic school.
> > > > > > > **********************************************************************
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Capitalized pronouns for gods?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Are we really going to use capital initial letters for pronouns referring to gods even in the middle of sentences? I honestly don't see the point. This is a Christian invention and has nothing really to do with a Roman religious outlook. It risks encouraging people to look at Roman traditional religion through Judaeo-Christian spectacles, which isn't helpful. Cordus 09:49, 16 July 2006 (CDT)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > optime vale
> > > > > > > M. Hortensia Maior
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Cato Iunio Neroni sal.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Salve.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > No, it is not "wrong" to capitalize a pronoun referring to a godm, and when I
> > > > > > > > talk of Neptunus (or any of the other gods) I will speak of "Him" or "Her" or "Them". Marca
> > > > > > > > Hortensia just likes to play at being more "correct" than anyone else.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Vale,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Cato
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "G.IVNIVS NERO" <rikudemyx@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Salve,
> > > > > > > > > Is it so wrong to capitolize things when we're trying to add respect?
> > > > > > > > > When I was in school I was taught capitolization shows either a proper noun or respect, when I or Cato capitolizes it is out of respect for the Gods.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > It also happens to be a habit I've been in since I became Pagan at 11
> > > > > > > > > Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant
> > > > > > > > > Nero
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > -Salve Julia;
> > > > > > > > > > I saw at your site you will be getting Fauna, Bona Dea, now that is wonderful, I'd love her for my lararium! why can't someone make a tiny roman temple for a lararium, I'd love it.
> > > > > > > > > > optime vale
> > > > > > > > > > Maior
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > postsciptum; Cato, Neptunus is he, Bona Dea she, the gods; gods. That's Roman polytheistic practice. Capitalizing is a practice of later judeo-christian cults.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Salvé Gai Equiti,
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I am soooo glad you are pleased! May it bring you much pleasure and good fortune!
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Valé optimé!
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Julia
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> -Salve Gualtere;
> we've discussed this issue before with the term 'orthopraxy' that some terms come pre-loaded with so much cultural baggage, that it is better not to use them.
>
> The same with 'sin', vitium is the better word as it bears no unconscious assumptions. In English 'fault' which the OLD uses to explain 'vitium' is good too.
>
> A good example is the sacrifice of Corvus in Sarmatia; he made an error, a vitium, which he will correct with a piaculum.
>
> Now if I said "he sinned" that would produce an entirely different picture than "he commited a fault, a vitium."
>
> I know your area is early Christianity, but as you are reading Rupke etc...just look to see what they are doing. The best modern scholarship in Roman religion is abandoning judeo-christian terms; orthopraxy, sin etc for neutral language, to explain/understand the cultus deorum on its own basis, not via a Judeo-Christian filter.
> optime vale
> Maior
>
>
> >
> > Salvete,
> >
> > There is no reason to have a hangup over the English term "sin". Of the terms you list, Maior, vitium is actually a very close match to biblical "sin". Of course, Jerome decides on peccatus, but that is late usage. Both the Hebrew Chet-Tet-Alef-Tav and Greek hAMARTANH mean to miss the mark, to make an error/mistake. They can be used in a religious sense or secular sense (e.g. against another man, Gen 42:22). Even modern English usage of "sin" has this broad semantic range and is not limited to a narrow Christian religious sense.
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > Gualterus
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Salve Nero;
> > >
> > > please don't be hard on yourself, It's a lifelong project to change our minds our hearts and our culture but that's what's so wonderful.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > John Scheid is really good in this discussion. Romans had these terms: sacer, profanus, pius, impius, sanctus, vitium.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Impiety was the opposite of piety. It consisted in denying the gods the honours and rank that were rightfully theirs, or in damaging their property by theft (sacrilege, in the strict sense of the term) or by neglect. If one accidentally disturbed the correct performance of a ritual or offended a deity out of ignorance and without meaning to do so, the impiety could be expiated by a sacrifice and possibly by making reparation for the worng. But if the offences was deliberate, it was inexpiable. In this case, the community freed itself from the responsibility by an expiatory sacrifice ..making good the damage; but the guilty person remained forever impious and could never be expiated....the impious offender was 'handed over' to the gods for them to 'do justice' for themselves." p. 27
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Piety is justice with regard to the gods" Cicero (On the Nature of the Gods 1.116)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "It was a reciprocal social virtue, for the gods also had to fill their obligations." p. 26 Piety "covered the correct relations with parents, friends, and fellow-citizens as well as the correct attitude with regard to the gods."
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > So a good Roman was pious!
> > >
> > > optime vale
> > >
> > > Maior
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > - In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rikudemyx" <rikudemyx@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Salve,
> > > >
> > > > I will never again capitolize a pronoun.
> > > > On a side note I am curious if the concept of sin has no place in the Cultus then what would you call the act of defacing a statue of Saturn? What would one call stealing the offerings to Mars, how would one define allowing a temple to fall into disuse?
> > > > Would not in modern terms at least that be a sin?
> > > > However the authors you gave me seem interesting I will be sure to look them up.
> > > > Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Salve Nero:
> > > > > first you are free to do whatever you want in your cultus privatus.
> > > > >
> > > > > Anyone here who is familiar with the classics in Latin will tell you the Romans didn't capitalize the d in dea, deus, dii, they didn't capitalize t or v for 'tu''vos' when referring to gods or goddesses, it's common knowledge and we follow their practice.
> > > > >
> > > > > Now we belong to Nova Roma to follow the gods and Republican Roman culture. Many of my friends who follow philosophy are devoted to Roman culture, Roman values, Roman way of life.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you just want to worship Iuppiter OM without engaging yourself in Roman culture, you can be a modern neo-pagan, but for the rest of us, it is about living our Romanitas in the modern world.
> > > > >
> > > > > So yes it takes an effort. Look how you used 'sin.' The cultus deorum has no morality. The Romans saw their gods in a patron-client relationship. They would give and you would render them honour. Excessive religiosity and over-scrupulousness was derided as superstitio.
> > > > >
> > > > > I know it's a lot to take in, have you read any books by Turcan, Scheid, Jorg Rupke, Beard & North? I think that would help.
> > > > > bene vale in pacem deorum
> > > > > M. Hortensia Maior
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Salve,
> > > > > > This is but one man, many many men have studied at Oxford and I'm sure any one of them could write a paper about anything. Would that mean that we follow it?
> > > > > > I understand both his and your point, however it is my way of showing respect. Another thing, not to attack his way of life but you said yourself he doesn't follow our religion how does it affect those of us that do?
> > > > > > Is it really so wrong that I capitolize a pronoun, is that such a monstrous sin? Personaly I think it is a trivial matter.
> > > > > > I am not smashing temples and images, I am not trying to change the religion I am simply changing h to H, s to S and g to G.
> > > > > > Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant
> > > > > > Nero
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Salve Nero;
> > > > > > > I've posted below the NRwiki comment about this very thing from my friend Cordus, he studied classics at Oxford, is going to be a barrister and speaks Latin fluently. He's one of my models for Romanitas. He's not a cultor he follows philosophy; the Peripatetic school.
> > > > > > > **********************************************************************
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Capitalized pronouns for gods?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Are we really going to use capital initial letters for pronouns referring to gods even in the middle of sentences? I honestly don't see the point. This is a Christian invention and has nothing really to do with a Roman religious outlook. It risks encouraging people to look at Roman traditional religion through Judaeo-Christian spectacles, which isn't helpful. Cordus 09:49, 16 July 2006 (CDT)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > optime vale
> > > > > > > M. Hortensia Maior
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Cato Iunio Neroni sal.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Salve.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > No, it is not "wrong" to capitalize a pronoun referring to a godm, and when I
> > > > > > > > talk of Neptunus (or any of the other gods) I will speak of "Him" or "Her" or "Them". Marca
> > > > > > > > Hortensia just likes to play at being more "correct" than anyone else.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Vale,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Cato
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "G.IVNIVS NERO" <rikudemyx@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Salve,
> > > > > > > > > Is it so wrong to capitolize things when we're trying to add respect?
> > > > > > > > > When I was in school I was taught capitolization shows either a proper noun or respect, when I or Cato capitolizes it is out of respect for the Gods.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > It also happens to be a habit I've been in since I became Pagan at 11
> > > > > > > > > Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant
> > > > > > > > > Nero
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > -Salve Julia;
> > > > > > > > > > I saw at your site you will be getting Fauna, Bona Dea, now that is wonderful, I'd love her for my lararium! why can't someone make a tiny roman temple for a lararium, I'd love it.
> > > > > > > > > > optime vale
> > > > > > > > > > Maior
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > postsciptum; Cato, Neptunus is he, Bona Dea she, the gods; gods. That's Roman polytheistic practice. Capitalizing is a practice of later judeo-christian cults.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Salvé Gai Equiti,
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I am soooo glad you are pleased! May it bring you much pleasure and good fortune!
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Valé optimé!
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Julia
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

>
> Khairete,
>  
> Kluete mou, out in the middle of the woods, new moon, in the Greek month of Boedromion (Apollo responds to a call to him), the Eleusian Mysteries begin (otherwise they begin on the 15th).
>  
> We are also brewing mead with my son for the next round (Proerosia and Oskhophoria) as the harvest is gathered and stored. But the mysteries of Madame and Maid take us through the 21st.
>  
> I would like to remind all in the province of our gathering this coming weekend. Renewed directions to my home will be sent later this week. Phone contacts should only be late the 21st, when the mysteries conclude, kharin ekho.
>  
> ASR
>  
>  
>

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cn. Cornelius Lentulus" <cn_corn_lent@...> wrote:
>
> Cn. Lentulus leg. pr. pr. et pont. Quiritibus sal.
>
>
> With the leadership of A. Vitellius Celsus, Praefectus of Nova Roma in Bulgaria, the Nova Roma is present and officially participates in the International Ancient Heritage Festival (Eagle in the Danube II. Edition of the Festival) in Svishtov, Bulgaria.
>
> Here you can see Nova Roma among the participants:
>
> http://www.visitsvishtov.com/2009/en_reenactors.html
>
> These Bulgarian Nova Romans are the fruit of the last year's Nova Roman Consular Committee's participation at the first edition of this festival.
>
> Here you can see more about this year's festival:
>
> http://www.visitsvishtov.com/2009/en_index.html
>
> Yesterday, today and tomorrow, these Nova Romans in Svishtov hold up to glory our Republic, our community.
>
> Please think about them, send your prayers to their success, to their soon to be province!
>
> Please acknowledge how wonderful our international Nova Roma is, where just right now is being born a new province, in East Europe, Bulgaria -- a dream is living and continued that was started in South America, across the Ocean, by Cassius and Vedius and their friends in the US.
>
> Nova Roma is wonderful!
>
> VIVAT NOSTRA RES PUBLICA NOVA ROMANA PROSPERRIME!
>

>
> I would suggest that overreacting to the terms people use, even when they are used in the most casual and non-technical sense, can cause as much miscommunication as when using terms without fully acknowledging the bagging they carry.
>
> -Gualterus
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> >
> > -Salve Gualtere;
> > we've discussed this issue before with the term 'orthopraxy' that some terms come pre-loaded with so much cultural baggage, that it is better not to use them.
> >
> > The same with 'sin', vitium is the better word as it bears no unconscious assumptions. In English 'fault' which the OLD uses to explain 'vitium' is good too.
> >
> > A good example is the sacrifice of Corvus in Sarmatia; he made an error, a vitium, which he will correct with a piaculum.
> >
> > Now if I said "he sinned" that would produce an entirely different picture than "he commited a fault, a vitium."
> >
> > I know your area is early Christianity, but as you are reading Rupke etc...just look to see what they are doing. The best modern scholarship in Roman religion is abandoning judeo-christian terms; orthopraxy, sin etc for neutral language, to explain/understand the cultus deorum on its own basis, not via a Judeo-Christian filter.
> > optime vale
> > Maior
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Salvete,
> > >
> > > There is no reason to have a hangup over the English term "sin". Of the terms you list, Maior, vitium is actually a very close match to biblical "sin". Of course, Jerome decides on peccatus, but that is late usage. Both the Hebrew Chet-Tet-Alef-Tav and Greek hAMARTANH mean to miss the mark, to make an error/mistake. They can be used in a religious sense or secular sense (e.g. against another man, Gen 42:22). Even modern English usage of "sin" has this broad semantic range and is not limited to a narrow Christian religious sense.
> > >
> > > Valete,
> > >
> > > Gualterus
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Salve Nero;
> > > >
> > > > please don't be hard on yourself, It's a lifelong project to change our minds our hearts and our culture but that's what's so wonderful.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > John Scheid is really good in this discussion. Romans had these terms: sacer, profanus, pius, impius, sanctus, vitium.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Impiety was the opposite of piety. It consisted in denying the gods the honours and rank that were rightfully theirs, or in damaging their property by theft (sacrilege, in the strict sense of the term) or by neglect. If one accidentally disturbed the correct performance of a ritual or offended a deity out of ignorance and without meaning to do so, the impiety could be expiated by a sacrifice and possibly by making reparation for the worng. But if the offences was deliberate, it was inexpiable. In this case, the community freed itself from the responsibility by an expiatory sacrifice ..making good the damage; but the guilty person remained forever impious and could never be expiated....the impious offender was 'handed over' to the gods for them to 'do justice' for themselves." p. 27
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Piety is justice with regard to the gods" Cicero (On the Nature of the Gods 1.116)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "It was a reciprocal social virtue, for the gods also had to fill their obligations." p. 26 Piety "covered the correct relations with parents, friends, and fellow-citizens as well as the correct attitude with regard to the gods."
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > So a good Roman was pious!
> > > >
> > > > optime vale
> > > >
> > > > Maior
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > - In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rikudemyx" <rikudemyx@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Salve,
> > > > >
> > > > > I will never again capitolize a pronoun.
> > > > > On a side note I am curious if the concept of sin has no place in the Cultus then what would you call the act of defacing a statue of Saturn? What would one call stealing the offerings to Mars, how would one define allowing a temple to fall into disuse?
> > > > > Would not in modern terms at least that be a sin?
> > > > > However the authors you gave me seem interesting I will be sure to look them up.
> > > > > Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Salve Nero:
> > > > > > first you are free to do whatever you want in your cultus privatus.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Anyone here who is familiar with the classics in Latin will tell you the Romans didn't capitalize the d in dea, deus, dii, they didn't capitalize t or v for 'tu''vos' when referring to gods or goddesses, it's common knowledge and we follow their practice.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Now we belong to Nova Roma to follow the gods and Republican Roman culture. Many of my friends who follow philosophy are devoted to Roman culture, Roman values, Roman way of life.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you just want to worship Iuppiter OM without engaging yourself in Roman culture, you can be a modern neo-pagan, but for the rest of us, it is about living our Romanitas in the modern world.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So yes it takes an effort. Look how you used 'sin.' The cultus deorum has no morality. The Romans saw their gods in a patron-client relationship. They would give and you would render them honour. Excessive religiosity and over-scrupulousness was derided as superstitio.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I know it's a lot to take in, have you read any books by Turcan, Scheid, Jorg Rupke, Beard & North? I think that would help.
> > > > > > bene vale in pacem deorum
> > > > > > M. Hortensia Maior
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Salve,
> > > > > > > This is but one man, many many men have studied at Oxford and I'm sure any one of them could write a paper about anything. Would that mean that we follow it?
> > > > > > > I understand both his and your point, however it is my way of showing respect. Another thing, not to attack his way of life but you said yourself he doesn't follow our religion how does it affect those of us that do?
> > > > > > > Is it really so wrong that I capitolize a pronoun, is that such a monstrous sin? Personaly I think it is a trivial matter.
> > > > > > > I am not smashing temples and images, I am not trying to change the religion I am simply changing h to H, s to S and g to G.
> > > > > > > Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant
> > > > > > > Nero
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Salve Nero;
> > > > > > > > I've posted below the NRwiki comment about this very thing from my friend Cordus, he studied classics at Oxford, is going to be a barrister and speaks Latin fluently. He's one of my models for Romanitas. He's not a cultor he follows philosophy; the Peripatetic school.
> > > > > > > > **********************************************************************
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Capitalized pronouns for gods?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Are we really going to use capital initial letters for pronouns referring to gods even in the middle of sentences? I honestly don't see the point. This is a Christian invention and has nothing really to do with a Roman religious outlook. It risks encouraging people to look at Roman traditional religion through Judaeo-Christian spectacles, which isn't helpful. Cordus 09:49, 16 July 2006 (CDT)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > optime vale
> > > > > > > > M. Hortensia Maior
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Cato Iunio Neroni sal.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Salve.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > No, it is not "wrong" to capitalize a pronoun referring to a godm, and when I
> > > > > > > > > talk of Neptunus (or any of the other gods) I will speak of "Him" or "Her" or "Them". Marca
> > > > > > > > > Hortensia just likes to play at being more "correct" than anyone else.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Vale,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Cato
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "G.IVNIVS NERO" <rikudemyx@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Salve,
> > > > > > > > > > Is it so wrong to capitolize things when we're trying to add respect?
> > > > > > > > > > When I was in school I was taught capitolization shows either a proper noun or respect, when I or Cato capitolizes it is out of respect for the Gods.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > It also happens to be a habit I've been in since I became Pagan at 11
> > > > > > > > > > Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant
> > > > > > > > > > Nero
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > -Salve Julia;
> > > > > > > > > > > I saw at your site you will be getting Fauna, Bona Dea, now that is wonderful, I'd love her for my lararium! why can't someone make a tiny roman temple for a lararium, I'd love it.
> > > > > > > > > > > optime vale
> > > > > > > > > > > Maior
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > postsciptum; Cato, Neptunus is he, Bona Dea she, the gods; gods. That's Roman polytheistic practice. Capitalizing is a practice of later judeo-christian cults.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Salvé Gai Equiti,
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I am soooo glad you are pleased! May it bring you much pleasure and good fortune!
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Valé optimé!
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Julia
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Gualtere;
> I am very interested in how Romans saw themselves their values and morality. Do read this:
>
> "Popular Morality in the Roman Empire" and here is a nice review from Bryn Mawr Classical review;
>
> http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2009/2009-03-54.html
>
> Then there is Robert A. Kaster "Emotion, Restraint and Community" Oxford
> http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2007/2007-04-10.html
>
> A wonderful book, Cordus recommended it to me, and his discussions of 'invidia' and "paenitentia: the egoism of regret" are truly wonderful
>
> and "Roman Manliness" by Myles Anthony McDonnell Cambridge 2007
> hmm, so-so Kaster reviews it
> http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2007/2007-02-08.html
>
> I've added them below to the NRwiki.
> optime vale
> Maior
>
> http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Reading_list_for_Roman_history#Intellectual_History
>
>
> -- that Roman culture and religious experience was much more diverse. Interest in "belief" and religious "morality" played a large role in the religious experience of many Romans. While not always exactly correlated to what we find in systems of Christianity, the differences were much more nuanced than the categorical break you are trying to force on people here. I suggest you read the 2nd and 3rd chapters of Alvar, _Romanising Oriental Gods_ which are entitled "systems of belief" and "systems of value".
> >
> > I would suggest that overreacting to the terms people use, even when they are used in the most casual and non-technical sense, can cause as much miscommunication as when using terms without fully acknowledging the bagging they carry.
> >
> > -Gualterus
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > >
> > > -Salve Gualtere;
> > > we've discussed this issue before with the term 'orthopraxy' that some terms come pre-loaded with so much cultural baggage, that it is better not to use them.
> > >
> > > The same with 'sin', vitium is the better word as it bears no unconscious assumptions. In English 'fault' which the OLD uses to explain 'vitium' is good too.
> > >
> > > A good example is the sacrifice of Corvus in Sarmatia; he made an error, a vitium, which he will correct with a piaculum.
> > >
> > > Now if I said "he sinned" that would produce an entirely different picture than "he commited a fault, a vitium."
> > >
> > > I know your area is early Christianity, but as you are reading Rupke etc...just look to see what they are doing. The best modern scholarship in Roman religion is abandoning judeo-christian terms; orthopraxy, sin etc for neutral language, to explain/understand the cultus deorum on its own basis, not via a Judeo-Christian filter.
> > > optime vale
> > > Maior
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Salvete,
> > > >
> > > > There is no reason to have a hangup over the English term "sin". Of the terms you list, Maior, vitium is actually a very close match to biblical "sin". Of course, Jerome decides on peccatus, but that is late usage. Both the Hebrew Chet-Tet-Alef-Tav and Greek hAMARTANH mean to miss the mark, to make an error/mistake. They can be used in a religious sense or secular sense (e.g. against another man, Gen 42:22). Even modern English usage of "sin" has this broad semantic range and is not limited to a narrow Christian religious sense.
> > > >
> > > > Valete,
> > > >
> > > > Gualterus
> > > >
> > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Salve Nero;
> > > > >
> > > > > please don't be hard on yourself, It's a lifelong project to change our minds our hearts and our culture but that's what's so wonderful.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > John Scheid is really good in this discussion. Romans had these terms: sacer, profanus, pius, impius, sanctus, vitium.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Impiety was the opposite of piety. It consisted in denying the gods the honours and rank that were rightfully theirs, or in damaging their property by theft (sacrilege, in the strict sense of the term) or by neglect. If one accidentally disturbed the correct performance of a ritual or offended a deity out of ignorance and without meaning to do so, the impiety could be expiated by a sacrifice and possibly by making reparation for the worng. But if the offences was deliberate, it was inexpiable. In this case, the community freed itself from the responsibility by an expiatory sacrifice ..making good the damage; but the guilty person remained forever impious and could never be expiated....the impious offender was 'handed over' to the gods for them to 'do justice' for themselves." p. 27
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Piety is justice with regard to the gods" Cicero (On the Nature of the Gods 1.116)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "It was a reciprocal social virtue, for the gods also had to fill their obligations." p. 26 Piety "covered the correct relations with parents, friends, and fellow-citizens as well as the correct attitude with regard to the gods."
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > So a good Roman was pious!
> > > > >
> > > > > optime vale
> > > > >
> > > > > Maior
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > - In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rikudemyx" <rikudemyx@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Salve,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I will never again capitolize a pronoun.
> > > > > > On a side note I am curious if the concept of sin has no place in the Cultus then what would you call the act of defacing a statue of Saturn? What would one call stealing the offerings to Mars, how would one define allowing a temple to fall into disuse?
> > > > > > Would not in modern terms at least that be a sin?
> > > > > > However the authors you gave me seem interesting I will be sure to look them up.
> > > > > > Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Salve Nero:
> > > > > > > first you are free to do whatever you want in your cultus privatus.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Anyone here who is familiar with the classics in Latin will tell you the Romans didn't capitalize the d in dea, deus, dii, they didn't capitalize t or v for 'tu''vos' when referring to gods or goddesses, it's common knowledge and we follow their practice.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Now we belong to Nova Roma to follow the gods and Republican Roman culture. Many of my friends who follow philosophy are devoted to Roman culture, Roman values, Roman way of life.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If you just want to worship Iuppiter OM without engaging yourself in Roman culture, you can be a modern neo-pagan, but for the rest of us, it is about living our Romanitas in the modern world.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So yes it takes an effort. Look how you used 'sin.' The cultus deorum has no morality. The Romans saw their gods in a patron-client relationship. They would give and you would render them honour. Excessive religiosity and over-scrupulousness was derided as superstitio.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I know it's a lot to take in, have you read any books by Turcan, Scheid, Jorg Rupke, Beard & North? I think that would help.
> > > > > > > bene vale in pacem deorum
> > > > > > > M. Hortensia Maior
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Salve,
> > > > > > > > This is but one man, many many men have studied at Oxford and I'm sure any one of them could write a paper about anything. Would that mean that we follow it?
> > > > > > > > I understand both his and your point, however it is my way of showing respect. Another thing, not to attack his way of life but you said yourself he doesn't follow our religion how does it affect those of us that do?
> > > > > > > > Is it really so wrong that I capitolize a pronoun, is that such a monstrous sin? Personaly I think it is a trivial matter.
> > > > > > > > I am not smashing temples and images, I am not trying to change the religion I am simply changing h to H, s to S and g to G.
> > > > > > > > Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant
> > > > > > > > Nero
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Salve Nero;
> > > > > > > > > I've posted below the NRwiki comment about this very thing from my friend Cordus, he studied classics at Oxford, is going to be a barrister and speaks Latin fluently. He's one of my models for Romanitas. He's not a cultor he follows philosophy; the Peripatetic school.
> > > > > > > > > **********************************************************************
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Capitalized pronouns for gods?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Are we really going to use capital initial letters for pronouns referring to gods even in the middle of sentences? I honestly don't see the point. This is a Christian invention and has nothing really to do with a Roman religious outlook. It risks encouraging people to look at Roman traditional religion through Judaeo-Christian spectacles, which isn't helpful. Cordus 09:49, 16 July 2006 (CDT)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > optime vale
> > > > > > > > > M. Hortensia Maior
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Cato Iunio Neroni sal.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Salve.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > No, it is not "wrong" to capitalize a pronoun referring to a godm, and when I
> > > > > > > > > > talk of Neptunus (or any of the other gods) I will speak of "Him" or "Her" or "Them". Marca
> > > > > > > > > > Hortensia just likes to play at being more "correct" than anyone else.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Vale,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Cato
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "G.IVNIVS NERO" <rikudemyx@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Salve,
> > > > > > > > > > > Is it so wrong to capitolize things when we're trying to add respect?
> > > > > > > > > > > When I was in school I was taught capitolization shows either a proper noun or respect, when I or Cato capitolizes it is out of respect for the Gods.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > It also happens to be a habit I've been in since I became Pagan at 11
> > > > > > > > > > > Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant
> > > > > > > > > > > Nero
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > -Salve Julia;
> > > > > > > > > > > > I saw at your site you will be getting Fauna, Bona Dea, now that is wonderful, I'd love her for my lararium! why can't someone make a tiny roman temple for a lararium, I'd love it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > optime vale
> > > > > > > > > > > > Maior
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > postsciptum; Cato, Neptunus is he, Bona Dea she, the gods; gods. That's Roman polytheistic practice. Capitalizing is a practice of later judeo-christian cults.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Salvé Gai Equiti,
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I am soooo glad you are pleased! May it bring you much pleasure and good fortune!
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Valé optimé!
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Julia
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

>
> That's a commendable interest and goal. My problem is with trying to harangue people into exchanging English words for Latin ones, or some other English circumlocution, solely because one feels it has some unwanted taint of Christianity. We're all intelligent adults here; we all known, or can quickly learn to recognize, that certain words are not being using as technical Christian jargon within our community.
>
> Now, if I may change the subject to something more productive, when are you going to finish your in-depth research paper on the Roman calendar (or whatever other subject you fancy)? I think you can agree that you can leave writing tiny intro stubs on the wiki to other CP members who only have the basic texts. Since you have access to a university library I think you carry a greater weight of responsibility in putting out something far more substantial.
>
> Vale,
>
> Gualterus
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> >
> > Salve Gualtere;
> > I am very interested in how Romans saw themselves their values and morality. Do read this:
> >
> > "Popular Morality in the Roman Empire" and here is a nice review from Bryn Mawr Classical review;
> >
> > http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2009/2009-03-54.html
> >
> > Then there is Robert A. Kaster "Emotion, Restraint and Community" Oxford
> > http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2007/2007-04-10.html
> >
> > A wonderful book, Cordus recommended it to me, and his discussions of 'invidia' and "paenitentia: the egoism of regret" are truly wonderful
> >
> > and "Roman Manliness" by Myles Anthony McDonnell Cambridge 2007
> > hmm, so-so Kaster reviews it
> > http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2007/2007-02-08.html
> >
> > I've added them below to the NRwiki.
> > optime vale
> > Maior
> >
> > http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Reading_list_for_Roman_history#Intellectual_History
> >
> >
> > -- that Roman culture and religious experience was much more diverse. Interest in "belief" and religious "morality" played a large role in the religious experience of many Romans. While not always exactly correlated to what we find in systems of Christianity, the differences were much more nuanced than the categorical break you are trying to force on people here. I suggest you read the 2nd and 3rd chapters of Alvar, _Romanising Oriental Gods_ which are entitled "systems of belief" and "systems of value".
> > >
> > > I would suggest that overreacting to the terms people use, even when they are used in the most casual and non-technical sense, can cause as much miscommunication as when using terms without fully acknowledging the bagging they carry.
> > >
> > > -Gualterus
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > -Salve Gualtere;
> > > > we've discussed this issue before with the term 'orthopraxy' that some terms come pre-loaded with so much cultural baggage, that it is better not to use them.
> > > >
> > > > The same with 'sin', vitium is the better word as it bears no unconscious assumptions. In English 'fault' which the OLD uses to explain 'vitium' is good too.
> > > >
> > > > A good example is the sacrifice of Corvus in Sarmatia; he made an error, a vitium, which he will correct with a piaculum.
> > > >
> > > > Now if I said "he sinned" that would produce an entirely different picture than "he commited a fault, a vitium."
> > > >
> > > > I know your area is early Christianity, but as you are reading Rupke etc...just look to see what they are doing. The best modern scholarship in Roman religion is abandoning judeo-christian terms; orthopraxy, sin etc for neutral language, to explain/understand the cultus deorum on its own basis, not via a Judeo-Christian filter.
> > > > optime vale
> > > > Maior
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Salvete,
> > > > >
> > > > > There is no reason to have a hangup over the English term "sin". Of the terms you list, Maior, vitium is actually a very close match to biblical "sin". Of course, Jerome decides on peccatus, but that is late usage. Both the Hebrew Chet-Tet-Alef-Tav and Greek hAMARTANH mean to miss the mark, to make an error/mistake. They can be used in a religious sense or secular sense (e.g. against another man, Gen 42:22). Even modern English usage of "sin" has this broad semantic range and is not limited to a narrow Christian religious sense.
> > > > >
> > > > > Valete,
> > > > >
> > > > > Gualterus
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Salve Nero;
> > > > > >
> > > > > > please don't be hard on yourself, It's a lifelong project to change our minds our hearts and our culture but that's what's so wonderful.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > John Scheid is really good in this discussion. Romans had these terms: sacer, profanus, pius, impius, sanctus, vitium.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Impiety was the opposite of piety. It consisted in denying the gods the honours and rank that were rightfully theirs, or in damaging their property by theft (sacrilege, in the strict sense of the term) or by neglect. If one accidentally disturbed the correct performance of a ritual or offended a deity out of ignorance and without meaning to do so, the impiety could be expiated by a sacrifice and possibly by making reparation for the worng. But if the offences was deliberate, it was inexpiable. In this case, the community freed itself from the responsibility by an expiatory sacrifice ..making good the damage; but the guilty person remained forever impious and could never be expiated....the impious offender was 'handed over' to the gods for them to 'do justice' for themselves." p. 27
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Piety is justice with regard to the gods" Cicero (On the Nature of the Gods 1.116)
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "It was a reciprocal social virtue, for the gods also had to fill their obligations." p. 26 Piety "covered the correct relations with parents, friends, and fellow-citizens as well as the correct attitude with regard to the gods."
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So a good Roman was pious!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > optime vale
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Maior
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > - In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rikudemyx" <rikudemyx@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Salve,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I will never again capitolize a pronoun.
> > > > > > > On a side note I am curious if the concept of sin has no place in the Cultus then what would you call the act of defacing a statue of Saturn? What would one call stealing the offerings to Mars, how would one define allowing a temple to fall into disuse?
> > > > > > > Would not in modern terms at least that be a sin?
> > > > > > > However the authors you gave me seem interesting I will be sure to look them up.
> > > > > > > Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Salve Nero:
> > > > > > > > first you are free to do whatever you want in your cultus privatus.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Anyone here who is familiar with the classics in Latin will tell you the Romans didn't capitalize the d in dea, deus, dii, they didn't capitalize t or v for 'tu''vos' when referring to gods or goddesses, it's common knowledge and we follow their practice.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Now we belong to Nova Roma to follow the gods and Republican Roman culture. Many of my friends who follow philosophy are devoted to Roman culture, Roman values, Roman way of life.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If you just want to worship Iuppiter OM without engaging yourself in Roman culture, you can be a modern neo-pagan, but for the rest of us, it is about living our Romanitas in the modern world.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > So yes it takes an effort. Look how you used 'sin.' The cultus deorum has no morality. The Romans saw their gods in a patron-client relationship. They would give and you would render them honour. Excessive religiosity and over-scrupulousness was derided as superstitio.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I know it's a lot to take in, have you read any books by Turcan, Scheid, Jorg Rupke, Beard & North? I think that would help.
> > > > > > > > bene vale in pacem deorum
> > > > > > > > M. Hortensia Maior
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Salve,
> > > > > > > > > This is but one man, many many men have studied at Oxford and I'm sure any one of them could write a paper about anything. Would that mean that we follow it?
> > > > > > > > > I understand both his and your point, however it is my way of showing respect. Another thing, not to attack his way of life but you said yourself he doesn't follow our religion how does it affect those of us that do?
> > > > > > > > > Is it really so wrong that I capitolize a pronoun, is that such a monstrous sin? Personaly I think it is a trivial matter.
> > > > > > > > > I am not smashing temples and images, I am not trying to change the religion I am simply changing h to H, s to S and g to G.
> > > > > > > > > Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant
> > > > > > > > > Nero
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Salve Nero;
> > > > > > > > > > I've posted below the NRwiki comment about this very thing from my friend Cordus, he studied classics at Oxford, is going to be a barrister and speaks Latin fluently. He's one of my models for Romanitas. He's not a cultor he follows philosophy; the Peripatetic school.
> > > > > > > > > > **********************************************************************
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Capitalized pronouns for gods?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Are we really going to use capital initial letters for pronouns referring to gods even in the middle of sentences? I honestly don't see the point. This is a Christian invention and has nothing really to do with a Roman religious outlook. It risks encouraging people to look at Roman traditional religion through Judaeo-Christian spectacles, which isn't helpful. Cordus 09:49, 16 July 2006 (CDT)
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > optime vale
> > > > > > > > > > M. Hortensia Maior
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Cato Iunio Neroni sal.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Salve.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > No, it is not "wrong" to capitalize a pronoun referring to a godm, and when I
> > > > > > > > > > > talk of Neptunus (or any of the other gods) I will speak of "Him" or "Her" or "Them". Marca
> > > > > > > > > > > Hortensia just likes to play at being more "correct" than anyone else.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Vale,
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Cato
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "G.IVNIVS NERO" <rikudemyx@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Salve,
> > > > > > > > > > > > Is it so wrong to capitolize things when we're trying to add respect?
> > > > > > > > > > > > When I was in school I was taught capitolization shows either a proper noun or respect, when I or Cato capitolizes it is out of respect for the Gods.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > It also happens to be a habit I've been in since I became Pagan at 11
> > > > > > > > > > > > Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant
> > > > > > > > > > > > Nero
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > -Salve Julia;
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I saw at your site you will be getting Fauna, Bona Dea, now that is wonderful, I'd love her for my lararium! why can't someone make a tiny roman temple for a lararium, I'd love it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > optime vale
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Maior
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > postsciptum; Cato, Neptunus is he, Bona Dea she, the gods; gods. That's Roman polytheistic practice. Capitalizing is a practice of later judeo-christian cults.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Salvé Gai Equiti,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am soooo glad you are pleased! May it bring you much pleasure and good fortune!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Valé optimé!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Julia
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Gualtere;
> the point of my posting those books, the common Roman trope is:
> virtus vs. vitia and voluptas virtue vs. vice and pleasure (see Cato)
>
> If Nova Romans cives and cultores want to build an authentic Roman culture and a community we can do so with our own words and values.
>
> As for the Calendar article. I checked our NRwiki, Roman Calendar and Roman dates. It looks just fine. Metellus and Agricola worked on it.
> http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Roman_calendar
>
>
> I agree I'd like someone else to finish all the introductory articles. Will Metellus do it? Perhaps my article should be on Roman morality and values, that defines our culture; who we are.
>
> thank you very much for making me think about this
> optime vale
> Maior
>
>
> >
> > That's a commendable interest and goal. My problem is with trying to harangue people into exchanging English words for Latin ones, or some other English circumlocution, solely because one feels it has some unwanted taint of Christianity. We're all intelligent adults here; we all known, or can quickly learn to recognize, that certain words are not being using as technical Christian jargon within our community.
> >
> > Now, if I may change the subject to something more productive, when are you going to finish your in-depth research paper on the Roman calendar (or whatever other subject you fancy)? I think you can agree that you can leave writing tiny intro stubs on the wiki to other CP members who only have the basic texts. Since you have access to a university library I think you carry a greater weight of responsibility in putting out something far more substantial.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Gualterus
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Salve Gualtere;
> > > I am very interested in how Romans saw themselves their values and morality. Do read this:
> > >
> > > "Popular Morality in the Roman Empire" and here is a nice review from Bryn Mawr Classical review;
> > >
> > > http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2009/2009-03-54.html
> > >
> > > Then there is Robert A. Kaster "Emotion, Restraint and Community" Oxford
> > > http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2007/2007-04-10.html
> > >
> > > A wonderful book, Cordus recommended it to me, and his discussions of 'invidia' and "paenitentia: the egoism of regret" are truly wonderful
> > >
> > > and "Roman Manliness" by Myles Anthony McDonnell Cambridge 2007
> > > hmm, so-so Kaster reviews it
> > > http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2007/2007-02-08.html
> > >
> > > I've added them below to the NRwiki.
> > > optime vale
> > > Maior
> > >
> > > http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Reading_list_for_Roman_history#Intellectual_History
> > >
> > >
> > > -- that Roman culture and religious experience was much more diverse. Interest in "belief" and religious "morality" played a large role in the religious experience of many Romans. While not always exactly correlated to what we find in systems of Christianity, the differences were much more nuanced than the categorical break you are trying to force on people here. I suggest you read the 2nd and 3rd chapters of Alvar, _Romanising Oriental Gods_ which are entitled "systems of belief" and "systems of value".
> > > >
> > > > I would suggest that overreacting to the terms people use, even when they are used in the most casual and non-technical sense, can cause as much miscommunication as when using terms without fully acknowledging the bagging they carry.
> > > >
> > > > -Gualterus
> > > >
> > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > -Salve Gualtere;
> > > > > we've discussed this issue before with the term 'orthopraxy' that some terms come pre-loaded with so much cultural baggage, that it is better not to use them.
> > > > >
> > > > > The same with 'sin', vitium is the better word as it bears no unconscious assumptions. In English 'fault' which the OLD uses to explain 'vitium' is good too.
> > > > >
> > > > > A good example is the sacrifice of Corvus in Sarmatia; he made an error, a vitium, which he will correct with a piaculum.
> > > > >
> > > > > Now if I said "he sinned" that would produce an entirely different picture than "he commited a fault, a vitium."
> > > > >
> > > > > I know your area is early Christianity, but as you are reading Rupke etc...just look to see what they are doing. The best modern scholarship in Roman religion is abandoning judeo-christian terms; orthopraxy, sin etc for neutral language, to explain/understand the cultus deorum on its own basis, not via a Judeo-Christian filter.
> > > > > optime vale
> > > > > Maior
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Salvete,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There is no reason to have a hangup over the English term "sin". Of the terms you list, Maior, vitium is actually a very close match to biblical "sin". Of course, Jerome decides on peccatus, but that is late usage. Both the Hebrew Chet-Tet-Alef-Tav and Greek hAMARTANH mean to miss the mark, to make an error/mistake. They can be used in a religious sense or secular sense (e.g. against another man, Gen 42:22). Even modern English usage of "sin" has this broad semantic range and is not limited to a narrow Christian religious sense.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Valete,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Gualterus
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Salve Nero;
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > please don't be hard on yourself, It's a lifelong project to change our minds our hearts and our culture but that's what's so wonderful.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > John Scheid is really good in this discussion. Romans had these terms: sacer, profanus, pius, impius, sanctus, vitium.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Impiety was the opposite of piety. It consisted in denying the gods the honours and rank that were rightfully theirs, or in damaging their property by theft (sacrilege, in the strict sense of the term) or by neglect. If one accidentally disturbed the correct performance of a ritual or offended a deity out of ignorance and without meaning to do so, the impiety could be expiated by a sacrifice and possibly by making reparation for the worng. But if the offences was deliberate, it was inexpiable. In this case, the community freed itself from the responsibility by an expiatory sacrifice ..making good the damage; but the guilty person remained forever impious and could never be expiated....the impious offender was 'handed over' to the gods for them to 'do justice' for themselves." p. 27
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Piety is justice with regard to the gods" Cicero (On the Nature of the Gods 1.116)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "It was a reciprocal social virtue, for the gods also had to fill their obligations." p. 26 Piety "covered the correct relations with parents, friends, and fellow-citizens as well as the correct attitude with regard to the gods."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So a good Roman was pious!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > optime vale
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Maior
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > - In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rikudemyx" <rikudemyx@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Salve,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I will never again capitolize a pronoun.
> > > > > > > > On a side note I am curious if the concept of sin has no place in the Cultus then what would you call the act of defacing a statue of Saturn? What would one call stealing the offerings to Mars, how would one define allowing a temple to fall into disuse?
> > > > > > > > Would not in modern terms at least that be a sin?
> > > > > > > > However the authors you gave me seem interesting I will be sure to look them up.
> > > > > > > > Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Salve Nero:
> > > > > > > > > first you are free to do whatever you want in your cultus privatus.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Anyone here who is familiar with the classics in Latin will tell you the Romans didn't capitalize the d in dea, deus, dii, they didn't capitalize t or v for 'tu''vos' when referring to gods or goddesses, it's common knowledge and we follow their practice.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Now we belong to Nova Roma to follow the gods and Republican Roman culture. Many of my friends who follow philosophy are devoted to Roman culture, Roman values, Roman way of life.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If you just want to worship Iuppiter OM without engaging yourself in Roman culture, you can be a modern neo-pagan, but for the rest of us, it is about living our Romanitas in the modern world.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > So yes it takes an effort. Look how you used 'sin.' The cultus deorum has no morality. The Romans saw their gods in a patron-client relationship. They would give and you would render them honour. Excessive religiosity and over-scrupulousness was derided as superstitio.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I know it's a lot to take in, have you read any books by Turcan, Scheid, Jorg Rupke, Beard & North? I think that would help.
> > > > > > > > > bene vale in pacem deorum
> > > > > > > > > M. Hortensia Maior
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Salve,
> > > > > > > > > > This is but one man, many many men have studied at Oxford and I'm sure any one of them could write a paper about anything. Would that mean that we follow it?
> > > > > > > > > > I understand both his and your point, however it is my way of showing respect. Another thing, not to attack his way of life but you said yourself he doesn't follow our religion how does it affect those of us that do?
> > > > > > > > > > Is it really so wrong that I capitolize a pronoun, is that such a monstrous sin? Personaly I think it is a trivial matter.
> > > > > > > > > > I am not smashing temples and images, I am not trying to change the religion I am simply changing h to H, s to S and g to G.
> > > > > > > > > > Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant
> > > > > > > > > > Nero
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Salve Nero;
> > > > > > > > > > > I've posted below the NRwiki comment about this very thing from my friend Cordus, he studied classics at Oxford, is going to be a barrister and speaks Latin fluently. He's one of my models for Romanitas. He's not a cultor he follows philosophy; the Peripatetic school.
> > > > > > > > > > > **********************************************************************
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Capitalized pronouns for gods?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Are we really going to use capital initial letters for pronouns referring to gods even in the middle of sentences? I honestly don't see the point. This is a Christian invention and has nothing really to do with a Roman religious outlook. It risks encouraging people to look at Roman traditional religion through Judaeo-Christian spectacles, which isn't helpful. Cordus 09:49, 16 July 2006 (CDT)
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > optime vale
> > > > > > > > > > > M. Hortensia Maior
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Cato Iunio Neroni sal.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Salve.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > No, it is not "wrong" to capitalize a pronoun referring to a godm, and when I
> > > > > > > > > > > > talk of Neptunus (or any of the other gods) I will speak of "Him" or "Her" or "Them". Marca
> > > > > > > > > > > > Hortensia just likes to play at being more "correct" than anyone else.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Vale,
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Cato
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "G.IVNIVS NERO" <rikudemyx@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Salve,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Is it so wrong to capitolize things when we're trying to add respect?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > When I was in school I was taught capitolization shows either a proper noun or respect, when I or Cato capitolizes it is out of respect for the Gods.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > It also happens to be a habit I've been in since I became Pagan at 11
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Nero
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Salve Julia;
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I saw at your site you will be getting Fauna, Bona Dea, now that is wonderful, I'd love her for my lararium! why can't someone make a tiny roman temple for a lararium, I'd love it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > optime vale
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maior
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > postsciptum; Cato, Neptunus is he, Bona Dea she, the gods; gods. That's Roman polytheistic practice. Capitalizing is a practice of later judeo-christian cults.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Salvé Gai Equiti,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am soooo glad you are pleased! May it bring you much pleasure and good fortune!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Valé optimé!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Julia
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

>
> That wiki page is not an academic article. You've attended graduate school so you know what a seminar paper is and how to deal with evidence. Uncritically summarizing a couple pages from a book or two isn't... anything. The first footnote on that page points to a wikipedia article! And none of the other three citations have pages! You read my augury paper; you know what I'm talking about. If you don't want to deal with the calendar, that's fine, it's up to you, choose something else, but it's time to get cracking.
>
> As for the article stubs, I can ask Metellus or you can email him, or both, but shouldn't I assume that the CP has enough internal organization and communication to get the word out easily and delegate such trivial tasks?
>
> Vale,
>
> Gualterus
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> >
> > Salve Gualtere;
> > the point of my posting those books, the common Roman trope is:
> > virtus vs. vitia and voluptas virtue vs. vice and pleasure (see Cato)
> >
> > If Nova Romans cives and cultores want to build an authentic Roman culture and a community we can do so with our own words and values.
> >
> > As for the Calendar article. I checked our NRwiki, Roman Calendar and Roman dates. It looks just fine. Metellus and Agricola worked on it.
> > http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Roman_calendar
> >
> >
> > I agree I'd like someone else to finish all the introductory articles. Will Metellus do it? Perhaps my article should be on Roman morality and values, that defines our culture; who we are.
> >
> > thank you very much for making me think about this
> > optime vale
> > Maior
> >
> >
> > >
> > > That's a commendable interest and goal. My problem is with trying to harangue people into exchanging English words for Latin ones, or some other English circumlocution, solely because one feels it has some unwanted taint of Christianity. We're all intelligent adults here; we all known, or can quickly learn to recognize, that certain words are not being using as technical Christian jargon within our community.
> > >
> > > Now, if I may change the subject to something more productive, when are you going to finish your in-depth research paper on the Roman calendar (or whatever other subject you fancy)? I think you can agree that you can leave writing tiny intro stubs on the wiki to other CP members who only have the basic texts. Since you have access to a university library I think you carry a greater weight of responsibility in putting out something far more substantial.
> > >
> > > Vale,
> > >
> > > Gualterus
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Salve Gualtere;
> > > > I am very interested in how Romans saw themselves their values and morality. Do read this:
> > > >
> > > > "Popular Morality in the Roman Empire" and here is a nice review from Bryn Mawr Classical review;
> > > >
> > > > http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2009/2009-03-54.html
> > > >
> > > > Then there is Robert A. Kaster "Emotion, Restraint and Community" Oxford
> > > > http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2007/2007-04-10.html
> > > >
> > > > A wonderful book, Cordus recommended it to me, and his discussions of 'invidia' and "paenitentia: the egoism of regret" are truly wonderful
> > > >
> > > > and "Roman Manliness" by Myles Anthony McDonnell Cambridge 2007
> > > > hmm, so-so Kaster reviews it
> > > > http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2007/2007-02-08.html
> > > >
> > > > I've added them below to the NRwiki.
> > > > optime vale
> > > > Maior
> > > >
> > > > http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Reading_list_for_Roman_history#Intellectual_History
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -- that Roman culture and religious experience was much more diverse. Interest in "belief" and religious "morality" played a large role in the religious experience of many Romans. While not always exactly correlated to what we find in systems of Christianity, the differences were much more nuanced than the categorical break you are trying to force on people here. I suggest you read the 2nd and 3rd chapters of Alvar, _Romanising Oriental Gods_ which are entitled "systems of belief" and "systems of value".
> > > > >
> > > > > I would suggest that overreacting to the terms people use, even when they are used in the most casual and non-technical sense, can cause as much miscommunication as when using terms without fully acknowledging the bagging they carry.
> > > > >
> > > > > -Gualterus
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -Salve Gualtere;
> > > > > > we've discussed this issue before with the term 'orthopraxy' that some terms come pre-loaded with so much cultural baggage, that it is better not to use them.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The same with 'sin', vitium is the better word as it bears no unconscious assumptions. In English 'fault' which the OLD uses to explain 'vitium' is good too.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A good example is the sacrifice of Corvus in Sarmatia; he made an error, a vitium, which he will correct with a piaculum.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Now if I said "he sinned" that would produce an entirely different picture than "he commited a fault, a vitium."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I know your area is early Christianity, but as you are reading Rupke etc...just look to see what they are doing. The best modern scholarship in Roman religion is abandoning judeo-christian terms; orthopraxy, sin etc for neutral language, to explain/understand the cultus deorum on its own basis, not via a Judeo-Christian filter.
> > > > > > optime vale
> > > > > > Maior
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Salvete,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There is no reason to have a hangup over the English term "sin". Of the terms you list, Maior, vitium is actually a very close match to biblical "sin". Of course, Jerome decides on peccatus, but that is late usage. Both the Hebrew Chet-Tet-Alef-Tav and Greek hAMARTANH mean to miss the mark, to make an error/mistake. They can be used in a religious sense or secular sense (e.g. against another man, Gen 42:22). Even modern English usage of "sin" has this broad semantic range and is not limited to a narrow Christian religious sense.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Valete,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Gualterus
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Salve Nero;
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > please don't be hard on yourself, It's a lifelong project to change our minds our hearts and our culture but that's what's so wonderful.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > John Scheid is really good in this discussion. Romans had these terms: sacer, profanus, pius, impius, sanctus, vitium.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Impiety was the opposite of piety. It consisted in denying the gods the honours and rank that were rightfully theirs, or in damaging their property by theft (sacrilege, in the strict sense of the term) or by neglect. If one accidentally disturbed the correct performance of a ritual or offended a deity out of ignorance and without meaning to do so, the impiety could be expiated by a sacrifice and possibly by making reparation for the worng. But if the offences was deliberate, it was inexpiable. In this case, the community freed itself from the responsibility by an expiatory sacrifice ..making good the damage; but the guilty person remained forever impious and could never be expiated....the impious offender was 'handed over' to the gods for them to 'do justice' for themselves." p. 27
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Piety is justice with regard to the gods" Cicero (On the Nature of the Gods 1.116)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "It was a reciprocal social virtue, for the gods also had to fill their obligations." p. 26 Piety "covered the correct relations with parents, friends, and fellow-citizens as well as the correct attitude with regard to the gods."
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > So a good Roman was pious!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > optime vale
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Maior
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > - In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rikudemyx" <rikudemyx@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Salve,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I will never again capitolize a pronoun.
> > > > > > > > > On a side note I am curious if the concept of sin has no place in the Cultus then what would you call the act of defacing a statue of Saturn? What would one call stealing the offerings to Mars, how would one define allowing a temple to fall into disuse?
> > > > > > > > > Would not in modern terms at least that be a sin?
> > > > > > > > > However the authors you gave me seem interesting I will be sure to look them up.
> > > > > > > > > Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Salve Nero:
> > > > > > > > > > first you are free to do whatever you want in your cultus privatus.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Anyone here who is familiar with the classics in Latin will tell you the Romans didn't capitalize the d in dea, deus, dii, they didn't capitalize t or v for 'tu''vos' when referring to gods or goddesses, it's common knowledge and we follow their practice.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Now we belong to Nova Roma to follow the gods and Republican Roman culture. Many of my friends who follow philosophy are devoted to Roman culture, Roman values, Roman way of life.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > If you just want to worship Iuppiter OM without engaging yourself in Roman culture, you can be a modern neo-pagan, but for the rest of us, it is about living our Romanitas in the modern world.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > So yes it takes an effort. Look how you used 'sin.' The cultus deorum has no morality. The Romans saw their gods in a patron-client relationship. They would give and you would render them honour. Excessive religiosity and over-scrupulousness was derided as superstitio.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I know it's a lot to take in, have you read any books by Turcan, Scheid, Jorg Rupke, Beard & North? I think that would help.
> > > > > > > > > > bene vale in pacem deorum
> > > > > > > > > > M. Hortensia Maior
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Salve,
> > > > > > > > > > > This is but one man, many many men have studied at Oxford and I'm sure any one of them could write a paper about anything. Would that mean that we follow it?
> > > > > > > > > > > I understand both his and your point, however it is my way of showing respect. Another thing, not to attack his way of life but you said yourself he doesn't follow our religion how does it affect those of us that do?
> > > > > > > > > > > Is it really so wrong that I capitolize a pronoun, is that such a monstrous sin? Personaly I think it is a trivial matter.
> > > > > > > > > > > I am not smashing temples and images, I am not trying to change the religion I am simply changing h to H, s to S and g to G.
> > > > > > > > > > > Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant
> > > > > > > > > > > Nero
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Salve Nero;
> > > > > > > > > > > > I've posted below the NRwiki comment about this very thing from my friend Cordus, he studied classics at Oxford, is going to be a barrister and speaks Latin fluently. He's one of my models for Romanitas. He's not a cultor he follows philosophy; the Peripatetic school.
> > > > > > > > > > > > **********************************************************************
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Capitalized pronouns for gods?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Are we really going to use capital initial letters for pronouns referring to gods even in the middle of sentences? I honestly don't see the point. This is a Christian invention and has nothing really to do with a Roman religious outlook. It risks encouraging people to look at Roman traditional religion through Judaeo-Christian spectacles, which isn't helpful. Cordus 09:49, 16 July 2006 (CDT)
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > optime vale
> > > > > > > > > > > > M. Hortensia Maior
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Cato Iunio Neroni sal.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Salve.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > No, it is not "wrong" to capitalize a pronoun referring to a godm, and when I
> > > > > > > > > > > > > talk of Neptunus (or any of the other gods) I will speak of "Him" or "Her" or "Them". Marca
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Hortensia just likes to play at being more "correct" than anyone else.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Vale,
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Cato
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "G.IVNIVS NERO" <rikudemyx@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Salve,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is it so wrong to capitolize things when we're trying to add respect?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > When I was in school I was taught capitolization shows either a proper noun or respect, when I or Cato capitolizes it is out of respect for the Gods.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > It also happens to be a habit I've been in since I became Pagan at 11
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nero
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Salve Julia;
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I saw at your site you will be getting Fauna, Bona Dea, now that is wonderful, I'd love her for my lararium! why can't someone make a tiny roman temple for a lararium, I'd love it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > optime vale
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maior
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > postsciptum; Cato, Neptunus is he, Bona Dea she, the gods; gods. That's Roman polytheistic practice. Capitalizing is a practice of later judeo-christian cults.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Salvé Gai Equiti,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am soooo glad you are pleased! May it bring you much pleasure and good fortune!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Valé optimé!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Julia
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

>
> Cato Marcae Hortensiae sal.
>
> Salve.
>
> In what way do you think the Dionysian (Bacchic) Mysteries reflect Roman moral values as a way of life? How does this square with the Senate's suppression of the rites in their edict of 186 BC because of the perceived harm they did to Roman moral values?
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> Maior Cato spd;
> please, either call me Maior or Hortensia, I've mentioned this before. here this should help. Lentulus wrote it:
> http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Latin_for_e-mail
>
> from a nrwiki article I wrote on Liber
> http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Liber
>
> "Though Bacchus in his Greek form had long been worshipped in Italy. The 'thiasos' Latin: thiasus was usually male or mixed with the female sacerdos presiding and were devoted to banquets and retelling of the god's myth.
> Bacchus was worshipped in the Roman way with collegia devoted to celebrating his feria with dinners much in the manner indicated by Ovid in his Fasti"
>
> The point of the Bacchanalia Affair is that new changes were introduced, which had political implications to Roman social order.
> A good article is Sarolta Tacacks "Politics and Religion in the Bacchanlian Affair of
> 186 B.C.E" Harvard Studies in Classical Philology 2000
> Or you can read most of her discussion over in Google Books just type in "Sarolta Tacacks" & it's p. 90 in "Vestal Virgins, Sibyls and Matrons"
> optime vale
> Maior
>
> - In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> >
> > Cato Marcae Hortensiae sal.
> >
> > Salve.
> >
> > In what way do you think the Dionysian (Bacchic) Mysteries reflect Roman moral values as a way of life? How does this square with the Senate's suppression of the rites in their edict of 186 BC because of the perceived harm they did to Roman moral values?
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Cato
> >
>

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Gualtere;
> if the Calendar informs cives of how the Roman calendar works, what the dies fasti, nefasti, comitialis mean, how to record days according to the Roman way, what more do we need?
>
> You want a 'critique' why? how does critiqueing some academic text add to our lives as Nova Romans? It's what graduate students do, then, they write something new {one hopes}and get tenure.
>
> Now I am interested in Roman values and morality, but I have no interest in nitpicking or pointing out my (if any) disagreements with Teresa Morgan's book or Kaster's, what interests me is to write a well researched document for the NRwiki about Roman values and morality, which will be a guide for our lives.
>
>
> I think you see Nova Roma solely as an intellectual enterprise akin to graduate school. Many of us: Saturninus, Cordus, Astur, Agricola etc see it as living a culture. You don't believe in this, so I think our aims are at cross purposes.
> optime vale
> Maior
>
>
> >
> > That wiki page is not an academic article. You've attended graduate school so you know what a seminar paper is and how to deal with evidence. Uncritically summarizing a couple pages from a book or two isn't... anything. The first footnote on that page points to a wikipedia article! And none of the other three citations have pages! You read my augury paper; you know what I'm talking about. If you don't want to deal with the calendar, that's fine, it's up to you, choose something else, but it's time to get cracking.
> >
> > As for the article stubs, I can ask Metellus or you can email him, or both, but shouldn't I assume that the CP has enough internal organization and communication to get the word out easily and delegate such trivial tasks?
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Gualterus
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Salve Gualtere;
> > > the point of my posting those books, the common Roman trope is:
> > > virtus vs. vitia and voluptas virtue vs. vice and pleasure (see Cato)
> > >
> > > If Nova Romans cives and cultores want to build an authentic Roman culture and a community we can do so with our own words and values.
> > >
> > > As for the Calendar article. I checked our NRwiki, Roman Calendar and Roman dates. It looks just fine. Metellus and Agricola worked on it.
> > > http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Roman_calendar
> > >
> > >
> > > I agree I'd like someone else to finish all the introductory articles. Will Metellus do it? Perhaps my article should be on Roman morality and values, that defines our culture; who we are.
> > >
> > > thank you very much for making me think about this
> > > optime vale
> > > Maior
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > That's a commendable interest and goal. My problem is with trying to harangue people into exchanging English words for Latin ones, or some other English circumlocution, solely because one feels it has some unwanted taint of Christianity. We're all intelligent adults here; we all known, or can quickly learn to recognize, that certain words are not being using as technical Christian jargon within our community.
> > > >
> > > > Now, if I may change the subject to something more productive, when are you going to finish your in-depth research paper on the Roman calendar (or whatever other subject you fancy)? I think you can agree that you can leave writing tiny intro stubs on the wiki to other CP members who only have the basic texts. Since you have access to a university library I think you carry a greater weight of responsibility in putting out something far more substantial.
> > > >
> > > > Vale,
> > > >
> > > > Gualterus
> > > >
> > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Salve Gualtere;
> > > > > I am very interested in how Romans saw themselves their values and morality. Do read this:
> > > > >
> > > > > "Popular Morality in the Roman Empire" and here is a nice review from Bryn Mawr Classical review;
> > > > >
> > > > > http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2009/2009-03-54.html
> > > > >
> > > > > Then there is Robert A. Kaster "Emotion, Restraint and Community" Oxford
> > > > > http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2007/2007-04-10.html
> > > > >
> > > > > A wonderful book, Cordus recommended it to me, and his discussions of 'invidia' and "paenitentia: the egoism of regret" are truly wonderful
> > > > >
> > > > > and "Roman Manliness" by Myles Anthony McDonnell Cambridge 2007
> > > > > hmm, so-so Kaster reviews it
> > > > > http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2007/2007-02-08.html
> > > > >
> > > > > I've added them below to the NRwiki.
> > > > > optime vale
> > > > > Maior
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Reading_list_for_Roman_history#Intellectual_History
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -- that Roman culture and religious experience was much more diverse. Interest in "belief" and religious "morality" played a large role in the religious experience of many Romans. While not always exactly correlated to what we find in systems of Christianity, the differences were much more nuanced than the categorical break you are trying to force on people here. I suggest you read the 2nd and 3rd chapters of Alvar, _Romanising Oriental Gods_ which are entitled "systems of belief" and "systems of value".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I would suggest that overreacting to the terms people use, even when they are used in the most casual and non-technical sense, can cause as much miscommunication as when using terms without fully acknowledging the bagging they carry.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -Gualterus
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -Salve Gualtere;
> > > > > > > we've discussed this issue before with the term 'orthopraxy' that some terms come pre-loaded with so much cultural baggage, that it is better not to use them.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The same with 'sin', vitium is the better word as it bears no unconscious assumptions. In English 'fault' which the OLD uses to explain 'vitium' is good too.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > A good example is the sacrifice of Corvus in Sarmatia; he made an error, a vitium, which he will correct with a piaculum.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Now if I said "he sinned" that would produce an entirely different picture than "he commited a fault, a vitium."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I know your area is early Christianity, but as you are reading Rupke etc...just look to see what they are doing. The best modern scholarship in Roman religion is abandoning judeo-christian terms; orthopraxy, sin etc for neutral language, to explain/understand the cultus deorum on its own basis, not via a Judeo-Christian filter.
> > > > > > > optime vale
> > > > > > > Maior
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Salvete,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > There is no reason to have a hangup over the English term "sin". Of the terms you list, Maior, vitium is actually a very close match to biblical "sin". Of course, Jerome decides on peccatus, but that is late usage. Both the Hebrew Chet-Tet-Alef-Tav and Greek hAMARTANH mean to miss the mark, to make an error/mistake. They can be used in a religious sense or secular sense (e.g. against another man, Gen 42:22). Even modern English usage of "sin" has this broad semantic range and is not limited to a narrow Christian religious sense.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Valete,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Gualterus
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Salve Nero;
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > please don't be hard on yourself, It's a lifelong project to change our minds our hearts and our culture but that's what's so wonderful.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > John Scheid is really good in this discussion. Romans had these terms: sacer, profanus, pius, impius, sanctus, vitium.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Impiety was the opposite of piety. It consisted in denying the gods the honours and rank that were rightfully theirs, or in damaging their property by theft (sacrilege, in the strict sense of the term) or by neglect. If one accidentally disturbed the correct performance of a ritual or offended a deity out of ignorance and without meaning to do so, the impiety could be expiated by a sacrifice and possibly by making reparation for the worng. But if the offences was deliberate, it was inexpiable. In this case, the community freed itself from the responsibility by an expiatory sacrifice ..making good the damage; but the guilty person remained forever impious and could never be expiated....the impious offender was 'handed over' to the gods for them to 'do justice' for themselves." p. 27
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Piety is justice with regard to the gods" Cicero (On the Nature of the Gods 1.116)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "It was a reciprocal social virtue, for the gods also had to fill their obligations." p. 26 Piety "covered the correct relations with parents, friends, and fellow-citizens as well as the correct attitude with regard to the gods."
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > So a good Roman was pious!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > optime vale
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Maior
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > - In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rikudemyx" <rikudemyx@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Salve,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I will never again capitolize a pronoun.
> > > > > > > > > > On a side note I am curious if the concept of sin has no place in the Cultus then what would you call the act of defacing a statue of Saturn? What would one call stealing the offerings to Mars, how would one define allowing a temple to fall into disuse?
> > > > > > > > > > Would not in modern terms at least that be a sin?
> > > > > > > > > > However the authors you gave me seem interesting I will be sure to look them up.
> > > > > > > > > > Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Salve Nero:
> > > > > > > > > > > first you are free to do whatever you want in your cultus privatus.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Anyone here who is familiar with the classics in Latin will tell you the Romans didn't capitalize the d in dea, deus, dii, they didn't capitalize t or v for 'tu''vos' when referring to gods or goddesses, it's common knowledge and we follow their practice.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Now we belong to Nova Roma to follow the gods and Republican Roman culture. Many of my friends who follow philosophy are devoted to Roman culture, Roman values, Roman way of life.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > If you just want to worship Iuppiter OM without engaging yourself in Roman culture, you can be a modern neo-pagan, but for the rest of us, it is about living our Romanitas in the modern world.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > So yes it takes an effort. Look how you used 'sin.' The cultus deorum has no morality. The Romans saw their gods in a patron-client relationship. They would give and you would render them honour. Excessive religiosity and over-scrupulousness was derided as superstitio.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I know it's a lot to take in, have you read any books by Turcan, Scheid, Jorg Rupke, Beard & North? I think that would help.
> > > > > > > > > > > bene vale in pacem deorum
> > > > > > > > > > > M. Hortensia Maior
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Salve,
> > > > > > > > > > > > This is but one man, many many men have studied at Oxford and I'm sure any one of them could write a paper about anything. Would that mean that we follow it?
> > > > > > > > > > > > I understand both his and your point, however it is my way of showing respect. Another thing, not to attack his way of life but you said yourself he doesn't follow our religion how does it affect those of us that do?
> > > > > > > > > > > > Is it really so wrong that I capitolize a pronoun, is that such a monstrous sin? Personaly I think it is a trivial matter.
> > > > > > > > > > > > I am not smashing temples and images, I am not trying to change the religion I am simply changing h to H, s to S and g to G.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant
> > > > > > > > > > > > Nero
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Salve Nero;
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I've posted below the NRwiki comment about this very thing from my friend Cordus, he studied classics at Oxford, is going to be a barrister and speaks Latin fluently. He's one of my models for Romanitas. He's not a cultor he follows philosophy; the Peripatetic school.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > **********************************************************************
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Capitalized pronouns for gods?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Are we really going to use capital initial letters for pronouns referring to gods even in the middle of sentences? I honestly don't see the point. This is a Christian invention and has nothing really to do with a Roman religious outlook. It risks encouraging people to look at Roman traditional religion through Judaeo-Christian spectacles, which isn't helpful. Cordus 09:49, 16 July 2006 (CDT)
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > optime vale
> > > > > > > > > > > > > M. Hortensia Maior
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cato Iunio Neroni sal.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Salve.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, it is not "wrong" to capitalize a pronoun referring to a godm, and when I
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > talk of Neptunus (or any of the other gods) I will speak of "Him" or "Her" or "Them". Marca
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hortensia just likes to play at being more "correct" than anyone else.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vale,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cato
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "G.IVNIVS NERO" <rikudemyx@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Salve,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is it so wrong to capitolize things when we're trying to add respect?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When I was in school I was taught capitolization shows either a proper noun or respect, when I or Cato capitolizes it is out of respect for the Gods.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It also happens to be a habit I've been in since I became Pagan at 11
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nero
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Salve Julia;
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I saw at your site you will be getting Fauna, Bona Dea, now that is wonderful, I'd love her for my lararium! why can't someone make a tiny roman temple for a lararium, I'd love it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > optime vale
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maior
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > postsciptum; Cato, Neptunus is he, Bona Dea she, the gods; gods. That's Roman polytheistic practice. Capitalizing is a practice of later judeo-christian cults.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Salvé Gai Equiti,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am soooo glad you are pleased! May it bring you much pleasure and good fortune!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Valé optimé!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Julia
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

>
> And, exactly, which calendar do you want to use? Nearly all of the surviving calendars are from the principate i.e. post Julian reform, and no two agree exactly with each other. For example, the only pre-Julian calendar, the Fasti Antiates, puts the final day of the Ludi Magnae Matri Deum as April 11, but our wiki (http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Feriae) lists it as Apr 10 without discussion. One might decide to conclude the fasti Antiates is wrong, as some commentators have (there is also disagreement as to whether the festival was continuously from Apr 4-10 or just on part of those days), but completely ignoring the issue is unacceptable. On top of this, the exact relationship between the calendar and religious service is not clear, since some calendars listed festivals that they probably never celebrated locally (Beard & North 323). The NR wiki entries seem completely oblivious to all of this.
>
> I am really beginning to wonder what you mean by "well researched", since blindly believing a single secondary (or primary) source without engaging any of the disagreements that have taken place in the secondary literature is barely research, and its certainly not how you go about writing a "guide for our lives." What I'm reading between the lines sounds an awful lot like: "we ain't need so much book learnin' " --am I way off?
>
> Vale,
>
> Gualterus
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> >
> > Salve Gualtere;
> > if the Calendar informs cives of how the Roman calendar works, what the dies fasti, nefasti, comitialis mean, how to record days according to the Roman way, what more do we need?
> >
> > You want a 'critique' why? how does critiqueing some academic text add to our lives as Nova Romans? It's what graduate students do, then, they write something new {one hopes}and get tenure.
> >
> > Now I am interested in Roman values and morality, but I have no interest in nitpicking or pointing out my (if any) disagreements with Teresa Morgan's book or Kaster's, what interests me is to write a well researched document for the NRwiki about Roman values and morality, which will be a guide for our lives.
> >
> >
> > I think you see Nova Roma solely as an intellectual enterprise akin to graduate school. Many of us: Saturninus, Cordus, Astur, Agricola etc see it as living a culture. You don't believe in this, so I think our aims are at cross purposes.
> > optime vale
> > Maior
> >
> >
> > >
> > > That wiki page is not an academic article. You've attended graduate school so you know what a seminar paper is and how to deal with evidence. Uncritically summarizing a couple pages from a book or two isn't... anything. The first footnote on that page points to a wikipedia article! And none of the other three citations have pages! You read my augury paper; you know what I'm talking about. If you don't want to deal with the calendar, that's fine, it's up to you, choose something else, but it's time to get cracking.
> > >
> > > As for the article stubs, I can ask Metellus or you can email him, or both, but shouldn't I assume that the CP has enough internal organization and communication to get the word out easily and delegate such trivial tasks?
> > >
> > > Vale,
> > >
> > > Gualterus
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Salve Gualtere;
> > > > the point of my posting those books, the common Roman trope is:
> > > > virtus vs. vitia and voluptas virtue vs. vice and pleasure (see Cato)
> > > >
> > > > If Nova Romans cives and cultores want to build an authentic Roman culture and a community we can do so with our own words and values.
> > > >
> > > > As for the Calendar article. I checked our NRwiki, Roman Calendar and Roman dates. It looks just fine. Metellus and Agricola worked on it.
> > > > http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Roman_calendar
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I agree I'd like someone else to finish all the introductory articles. Will Metellus do it? Perhaps my article should be on Roman morality and values, that defines our culture; who we are.
> > > >
> > > > thank you very much for making me think about this
> > > > optime vale
> > > > Maior
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > That's a commendable interest and goal. My problem is with trying to harangue people into exchanging English words for Latin ones, or some other English circumlocution, solely because one feels it has some unwanted taint of Christianity. We're all intelligent adults here; we all known, or can quickly learn to recognize, that certain words are not being using as technical Christian jargon within our community.
> > > > >
> > > > > Now, if I may change the subject to something more productive, when are you going to finish your in-depth research paper on the Roman calendar (or whatever other subject you fancy)? I think you can agree that you can leave writing tiny intro stubs on the wiki to other CP members who only have the basic texts. Since you have access to a university library I think you carry a greater weight of responsibility in putting out something far more substantial.
> > > > >
> > > > > Vale,
> > > > >
> > > > > Gualterus
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Salve Gualtere;
> > > > > > I am very interested in how Romans saw themselves their values and morality. Do read this:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Popular Morality in the Roman Empire" and here is a nice review from Bryn Mawr Classical review;
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2009/2009-03-54.html
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Then there is Robert A. Kaster "Emotion, Restraint and Community" Oxford
> > > > > > http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2007/2007-04-10.html
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A wonderful book, Cordus recommended it to me, and his discussions of 'invidia' and "paenitentia: the egoism of regret" are truly wonderful
> > > > > >
> > > > > > and "Roman Manliness" by Myles Anthony McDonnell Cambridge 2007
> > > > > > hmm, so-so Kaster reviews it
> > > > > > http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2007/2007-02-08.html
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I've added them below to the NRwiki.
> > > > > > optime vale
> > > > > > Maior
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Reading_list_for_Roman_history#Intellectual_History
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -- that Roman culture and religious experience was much more diverse. Interest in "belief" and religious "morality" played a large role in the religious experience of many Romans. While not always exactly correlated to what we find in systems of Christianity, the differences were much more nuanced than the categorical break you are trying to force on people here. I suggest you read the 2nd and 3rd chapters of Alvar, _Romanising Oriental Gods_ which are entitled "systems of belief" and "systems of value".
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I would suggest that overreacting to the terms people use, even when they are used in the most casual and non-technical sense, can cause as much miscommunication as when using terms without fully acknowledging the bagging they carry.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -Gualterus
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > -Salve Gualtere;
> > > > > > > > we've discussed this issue before with the term 'orthopraxy' that some terms come pre-loaded with so much cultural baggage, that it is better not to use them.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The same with 'sin', vitium is the better word as it bears no unconscious assumptions. In English 'fault' which the OLD uses to explain 'vitium' is good too.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > A good example is the sacrifice of Corvus in Sarmatia; he made an error, a vitium, which he will correct with a piaculum.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Now if I said "he sinned" that would produce an entirely different picture than "he commited a fault, a vitium."
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I know your area is early Christianity, but as you are reading Rupke etc...just look to see what they are doing. The best modern scholarship in Roman religion is abandoning judeo-christian terms; orthopraxy, sin etc for neutral language, to explain/understand the cultus deorum on its own basis, not via a Judeo-Christian filter.
> > > > > > > > optime vale
> > > > > > > > Maior
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Salvete,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > There is no reason to have a hangup over the English term "sin". Of the terms you list, Maior, vitium is actually a very close match to biblical "sin". Of course, Jerome decides on peccatus, but that is late usage. Both the Hebrew Chet-Tet-Alef-Tav and Greek hAMARTANH mean to miss the mark, to make an error/mistake. They can be used in a religious sense or secular sense (e.g. against another man, Gen 42:22). Even modern English usage of "sin" has this broad semantic range and is not limited to a narrow Christian religious sense.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Valete,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Gualterus
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Salve Nero;
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > please don't be hard on yourself, It's a lifelong project to change our minds our hearts and our culture but that's what's so wonderful.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > John Scheid is really good in this discussion. Romans had these terms: sacer, profanus, pius, impius, sanctus, vitium.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Impiety was the opposite of piety. It consisted in denying the gods the honours and rank that were rightfully theirs, or in damaging their property by theft (sacrilege, in the strict sense of the term) or by neglect. If one accidentally disturbed the correct performance of a ritual or offended a deity out of ignorance and without meaning to do so, the impiety could be expiated by a sacrifice and possibly by making reparation for the worng. But if the offences was deliberate, it was inexpiable. In this case, the community freed itself from the responsibility by an expiatory sacrifice ..making good the damage; but the guilty person remained forever impious and could never be expiated....the impious offender was 'handed over' to the gods for them to 'do justice' for themselves." p. 27
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Piety is justice with regard to the gods" Cicero (On the Nature of the Gods 1.116)
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "It was a reciprocal social virtue, for the gods also had to fill their obligations." p. 26 Piety "covered the correct relations with parents, friends, and fellow-citizens as well as the correct attitude with regard to the gods."
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > So a good Roman was pious!
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > optime vale
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Maior
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > - In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rikudemyx" <rikudemyx@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Salve,
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I will never again capitolize a pronoun.
> > > > > > > > > > > On a side note I am curious if the concept of sin has no place in the Cultus then what would you call the act of defacing a statue of Saturn? What would one call stealing the offerings to Mars, how would one define allowing a temple to fall into disuse?
> > > > > > > > > > > Would not in modern terms at least that be a sin?
> > > > > > > > > > > However the authors you gave me seem interesting I will be sure to look them up.
> > > > > > > > > > > Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Salve Nero:
> > > > > > > > > > > > first you are free to do whatever you want in your cultus privatus.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Anyone here who is familiar with the classics in Latin will tell you the Romans didn't capitalize the d in dea, deus, dii, they didn't capitalize t or v for 'tu''vos' when referring to gods or goddesses, it's common knowledge and we follow their practice.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Now we belong to Nova Roma to follow the gods and Republican Roman culture. Many of my friends who follow philosophy are devoted to Roman culture, Roman values, Roman way of life.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > If you just want to worship Iuppiter OM without engaging yourself in Roman culture, you can be a modern neo-pagan, but for the rest of us, it is about living our Romanitas in the modern world.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > So yes it takes an effort. Look how you used 'sin.' The cultus deorum has no morality. The Romans saw their gods in a patron-client relationship. They would give and you would render them honour. Excessive religiosity and over-scrupulousness was derided as superstitio.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I know it's a lot to take in, have you read any books by Turcan, Scheid, Jorg Rupke, Beard & North? I think that would help.
> > > > > > > > > > > > bene vale in pacem deorum
> > > > > > > > > > > > M. Hortensia Maior
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Salve,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > This is but one man, many many men have studied at Oxford and I'm sure any one of them could write a paper about anything. Would that mean that we follow it?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I understand both his and your point, however it is my way of showing respect. Another thing, not to attack his way of life but you said yourself he doesn't follow our religion how does it affect those of us that do?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Is it really so wrong that I capitolize a pronoun, is that such a monstrous sin? Personaly I think it is a trivial matter.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I am not smashing temples and images, I am not trying to change the religion I am simply changing h to H, s to S and g to G.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Nero
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Salve Nero;
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've posted below the NRwiki comment about this very thing from my friend Cordus, he studied classics at Oxford, is going to be a barrister and speaks Latin fluently. He's one of my models for Romanitas. He's not a cultor he follows philosophy; the Peripatetic school.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > **********************************************************************
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Capitalized pronouns for gods?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are we really going to use capital initial letters for pronouns referring to gods even in the middle of sentences? I honestly don't see the point. This is a Christian invention and has nothing really to do with a Roman religious outlook. It risks encouraging people to look at Roman traditional religion through Judaeo-Christian spectacles, which isn't helpful. Cordus 09:49, 16 July 2006 (CDT)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > optime vale
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > M. Hortensia Maior
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cato Iunio Neroni sal.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Salve.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, it is not "wrong" to capitalize a pronoun referring to a godm, and when I
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > talk of Neptunus (or any of the other gods) I will speak of "Him" or "Her" or "Them". Marca
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hortensia just likes to play at being more "correct" than anyone else.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vale,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cato
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "G.IVNIVS NERO" <rikudemyx@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Salve,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is it so wrong to capitolize things when we're trying to add respect?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When I was in school I was taught capitolization shows either a proper noun or respect, when I or Cato capitolizes it is out of respect for the Gods.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It also happens to be a habit I've been in since I became Pagan at 11
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nero
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Salve Julia;
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I saw at your site you will be getting Fauna, Bona Dea, now that is wonderful, I'd love her for my lararium! why can't someone make a tiny roman temple for a lararium, I'd love it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > optime vale
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maior
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > postsciptum; Cato, Neptunus is he, Bona Dea she, the gods; gods. That's Roman polytheistic practice. Capitalizing is a practice of later judeo-christian cults.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Salvé Gai Equiti,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am soooo glad you are pleased! May it bring you much pleasure and good fortune!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Valé optimé!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Julia
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> -Salve Gualtere;
> optime since you know so much about the calendar then you should discuss it with Metellus pontifex who is in charge of the calendar and the article. When you decide the issues then rewrite the article.
>
> Metellus is a pontifex and classics major so he should have produced a well-researched article on the Calendar.He's been a pontifex for quite a while.
>
> If his scholarship is really that poor, that's terrible. You should report it to the collegium pontificum. Then when we meet we will take this up. All religious personnel have to submit yearly reports of their activity.
>
> Please send the Sarolta Tacacks Bacchanalia article to both Cato and Nero, it will clear things up for them and they in turn can write an NRwiki article for the benefit of others.
>
> I'm not a pontifex, just a flaminica. I know Lentulus is busy in Svishtov, Piscinus was helping Corvus with his piaculum in Sarmatia, so do bring your concerns to Metellus.
> optime vale
> Maior
>
>
> >
> > And, exactly, which calendar do you want to use? Nearly all of the surviving calendars are from the principate i.e. post Julian reform, and no two agree exactly with each other. For example, the only pre-Julian calendar, the Fasti Antiates, puts the final day of the Ludi Magnae Matri Deum as April 11, but our wiki (http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Feriae) lists it as Apr 10 without discussion. One might decide to conclude the fasti Antiates is wrong, as some commentators have (there is also disagreement as to whether the festival was continuously from Apr 4-10 or just on part of those days), but completely ignoring the issue is unacceptable. On top of this, the exact relationship between the calendar and religious service is not clear, since some calendars listed festivals that they probably never celebrated locally (Beard & North 323). The NR wiki entries seem completely oblivious to all of this.
> >
> > I am really beginning to wonder what you mean by "well researched", since blindly believing a single secondary (or primary) source without engaging any of the disagreements that have taken place in the secondary literature is barely research, and its certainly not how you go about writing a "guide for our lives." What I'm reading between the lines sounds an awful lot like: "we ain't need so much book learnin' " --am I way off?
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Gualterus
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Salve Gualtere;
> > > if the Calendar informs cives of how the Roman calendar works, what the dies fasti, nefasti, comitialis mean, how to record days according to the Roman way, what more do we need?
> > >
> > > You want a 'critique' why? how does critiqueing some academic text add to our lives as Nova Romans? It's what graduate students do, then, they write something new {one hopes}and get tenure.
> > >
> > > Now I am interested in Roman values and morality, but I have no interest in nitpicking or pointing out my (if any) disagreements with Teresa Morgan's book or Kaster's, what interests me is to write a well researched document for the NRwiki about Roman values and morality, which will be a guide for our lives.
> > >
> > >
> > > I think you see Nova Roma solely as an intellectual enterprise akin to graduate school. Many of us: Saturninus, Cordus, Astur, Agricola etc see it as living a culture. You don't believe in this, so I think our aims are at cross purposes.
> > > optime vale
> > > Maior
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > That wiki page is not an academic article. You've attended graduate school so you know what a seminar paper is and how to deal with evidence. Uncritically summarizing a couple pages from a book or two isn't... anything. The first footnote on that page points to a wikipedia article! And none of the other three citations have pages! You read my augury paper; you know what I'm talking about. If you don't want to deal with the calendar, that's fine, it's up to you, choose something else, but it's time to get cracking.
> > > >
> > > > As for the article stubs, I can ask Metellus or you can email him, or both, but shouldn't I assume that the CP has enough internal organization and communication to get the word out easily and delegate such trivial tasks?
> > > >
> > > > Vale,
> > > >
> > > > Gualterus
> > > >
> > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Salve Gualtere;
> > > > > the point of my posting those books, the common Roman trope is:
> > > > > virtus vs. vitia and voluptas virtue vs. vice and pleasure (see Cato)
> > > > >
> > > > > If Nova Romans cives and cultores want to build an authentic Roman culture and a community we can do so with our own words and values.
> > > > >
> > > > > As for the Calendar article. I checked our NRwiki, Roman Calendar and Roman dates. It looks just fine. Metellus and Agricola worked on it.
> > > > > http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Roman_calendar
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree I'd like someone else to finish all the introductory articles. Will Metellus do it? Perhaps my article should be on Roman morality and values, that defines our culture; who we are.
> > > > >
> > > > > thank you very much for making me think about this
> > > > > optime vale
> > > > > Maior
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That's a commendable interest and goal. My problem is with trying to harangue people into exchanging English words for Latin ones, or some other English circumlocution, solely because one feels it has some unwanted taint of Christianity. We're all intelligent adults here; we all known, or can quickly learn to recognize, that certain words are not being using as technical Christian jargon within our community.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Now, if I may change the subject to something more productive, when are you going to finish your in-depth research paper on the Roman calendar (or whatever other subject you fancy)? I think you can agree that you can leave writing tiny intro stubs on the wiki to other CP members who only have the basic texts. Since you have access to a university library I think you carry a greater weight of responsibility in putting out something far more substantial.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Vale,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Gualterus
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Salve Gualtere;
> > > > > > > I am very interested in how Romans saw themselves their values and morality. Do read this:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Popular Morality in the Roman Empire" and here is a nice review from Bryn Mawr Classical review;
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2009/2009-03-54.html
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Then there is Robert A. Kaster "Emotion, Restraint and Community" Oxford
> > > > > > > http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2007/2007-04-10.html
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > A wonderful book, Cordus recommended it to me, and his discussions of 'invidia' and "paenitentia: the egoism of regret" are truly wonderful
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > and "Roman Manliness" by Myles Anthony McDonnell Cambridge 2007
> > > > > > > hmm, so-so Kaster reviews it
> > > > > > > http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2007/2007-02-08.html
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I've added them below to the NRwiki.
> > > > > > > optime vale
> > > > > > > Maior
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Reading_list_for_Roman_history#Intellectual_History
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -- that Roman culture and religious experience was much more diverse. Interest in "belief" and religious "morality" played a large role in the religious experience of many Romans. While not always exactly correlated to what we find in systems of Christianity, the differences were much more nuanced than the categorical break you are trying to force on people here. I suggest you read the 2nd and 3rd chapters of Alvar, _Romanising Oriental Gods_ which are entitled "systems of belief" and "systems of value".
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I would suggest that overreacting to the terms people use, even when they are used in the most casual and non-technical sense, can cause as much miscommunication as when using terms without fully acknowledging the bagging they carry.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > -Gualterus
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > -Salve Gualtere;
> > > > > > > > > we've discussed this issue before with the term 'orthopraxy' that some terms come pre-loaded with so much cultural baggage, that it is better not to use them.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The same with 'sin', vitium is the better word as it bears no unconscious assumptions. In English 'fault' which the OLD uses to explain 'vitium' is good too.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > A good example is the sacrifice of Corvus in Sarmatia; he made an error, a vitium, which he will correct with a piaculum.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Now if I said "he sinned" that would produce an entirely different picture than "he commited a fault, a vitium."
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I know your area is early Christianity, but as you are reading Rupke etc...just look to see what they are doing. The best modern scholarship in Roman religion is abandoning judeo-christian terms; orthopraxy, sin etc for neutral language, to explain/understand the cultus deorum on its own basis, not via a Judeo-Christian filter.
> > > > > > > > > optime vale
> > > > > > > > > Maior
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Salvete,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > There is no reason to have a hangup over the English term "sin". Of the terms you list, Maior, vitium is actually a very close match to biblical "sin". Of course, Jerome decides on peccatus, but that is late usage. Both the Hebrew Chet-Tet-Alef-Tav and Greek hAMARTANH mean to miss the mark, to make an error/mistake. They can be used in a religious sense or secular sense (e.g. against another man, Gen 42:22). Even modern English usage of "sin" has this broad semantic range and is not limited to a narrow Christian religious sense.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Valete,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Gualterus
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Salve Nero;
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > please don't be hard on yourself, It's a lifelong project to change our minds our hearts and our culture but that's what's so wonderful.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > John Scheid is really good in this discussion. Romans had these terms: sacer, profanus, pius, impius, sanctus, vitium.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > "Impiety was the opposite of piety. It consisted in denying the gods the honours and rank that were rightfully theirs, or in damaging their property by theft (sacrilege, in the strict sense of the term) or by neglect. If one accidentally disturbed the correct performance of a ritual or offended a deity out of ignorance and without meaning to do so, the impiety could be expiated by a sacrifice and possibly by making reparation for the worng. But if the offences was deliberate, it was inexpiable. In this case, the community freed itself from the responsibility by an expiatory sacrifice ..making good the damage; but the guilty person remained forever impious and could never be expiated....the impious offender was 'handed over' to the gods for them to 'do justice' for themselves." p. 27
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > "Piety is justice with regard to the gods" Cicero (On the Nature of the Gods 1.116)
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > "It was a reciprocal social virtue, for the gods also had to fill their obligations." p. 26 Piety "covered the correct relations with parents, friends, and fellow-citizens as well as the correct attitude with regard to the gods."
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > So a good Roman was pious!
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > optime vale
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Maior
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > - In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rikudemyx" <rikudemyx@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Salve,
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I will never again capitolize a pronoun.
> > > > > > > > > > > > On a side note I am curious if the concept of sin has no place in the Cultus then what would you call the act of defacing a statue of Saturn? What would one call stealing the offerings to Mars, how would one define allowing a temple to fall into disuse?
> > > > > > > > > > > > Would not in modern terms at least that be a sin?
> > > > > > > > > > > > However the authors you gave me seem interesting I will be sure to look them up.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Salve Nero:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > first you are free to do whatever you want in your cultus privatus.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyone here who is familiar with the classics in Latin will tell you the Romans didn't capitalize the d in dea, deus, dii, they didn't capitalize t or v for 'tu''vos' when referring to gods or goddesses, it's common knowledge and we follow their practice.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Now we belong to Nova Roma to follow the gods and Republican Roman culture. Many of my friends who follow philosophy are devoted to Roman culture, Roman values, Roman way of life.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > If you just want to worship Iuppiter OM without engaging yourself in Roman culture, you can be a modern neo-pagan, but for the rest of us, it is about living our Romanitas in the modern world.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > So yes it takes an effort. Look how you used 'sin.' The cultus deorum has no morality. The Romans saw their gods in a patron-client relationship. They would give and you would render them honour. Excessive religiosity and over-scrupulousness was derided as superstitio.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I know it's a lot to take in, have you read any books by Turcan, Scheid, Jorg Rupke, Beard & North? I think that would help.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > bene vale in pacem deorum
> > > > > > > > > > > > > M. Hortensia Maior
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Salve,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is but one man, many many men have studied at Oxford and I'm sure any one of them could write a paper about anything. Would that mean that we follow it?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I understand both his and your point, however it is my way of showing respect. Another thing, not to attack his way of life but you said yourself he doesn't follow our religion how does it affect those of us that do?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is it really so wrong that I capitolize a pronoun, is that such a monstrous sin? Personaly I think it is a trivial matter.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am not smashing temples and images, I am not trying to change the religion I am simply changing h to H, s to S and g to G.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nero
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Salve Nero;
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've posted below the NRwiki comment about this very thing from my friend Cordus, he studied classics at Oxford, is going to be a barrister and speaks Latin fluently. He's one of my models for Romanitas. He's not a cultor he follows philosophy; the Peripatetic school.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **********************************************************************
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Capitalized pronouns for gods?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are we really going to use capital initial letters for pronouns referring to gods even in the middle of sentences? I honestly don't see the point. This is a Christian invention and has nothing really to do with a Roman religious outlook. It risks encouraging people to look at Roman traditional religion through Judaeo-Christian spectacles, which isn't helpful. Cordus 09:49, 16 July 2006 (CDT)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > optime vale
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > M. Hortensia Maior
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cato Iunio Neroni sal.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Salve.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, it is not "wrong" to capitalize a pronoun referring to a godm, and when I
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > talk of Neptunus (or any of the other gods) I will speak of "Him" or "Her" or "Them". Marca
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hortensia just likes to play at being more "correct" than anyone else.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vale,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cato
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "G.IVNIVS NERO" <rikudemyx@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Salve,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is it so wrong to capitolize things when we're trying to add respect?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When I was in school I was taught capitolization shows either a proper noun or respect, when I or Cato capitolizes it is out of respect for the Gods.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It also happens to be a habit I've been in since I became Pagan at 11
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nero
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Salve Julia;
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I saw at your site you will be getting Fauna, Bona Dea, now that is wonderful, I'd love her for my lararium! why can't someone make a tiny roman temple for a lararium, I'd love it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > optime vale
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maior
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > postsciptum; Cato, Neptunus is he, Bona Dea she, the gods; gods. That's Roman polytheistic practice. Capitalizing is a practice of later judeo-christian cults.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Salvé Gai Equiti,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am soooo glad you are pleased! May it bring you much pleasure and good fortune!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Valé optimé!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Julia
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "G.IVNIVS NERO" <rikudemyx@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Maior,
> All this passage proves is that the rites of Bacchus had an effect to the social order.
> It does not say it affected the morals of Rome.
> Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant.
> Nero.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Timothy or Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Salvete,
>
> Honor virutis preamium - Honour is the reward of virtue
>
> Valete
>
> Ti. Galerius Paulinus
>