Ave Quadra,

> I agree.

You are right.

> Use when necessary to distinguish apple trees from evil, & they're excessive, "not beautiful."

1) Knowing the difference between short and long vovels is a problem of pronunciation not a problem of writing. The apices are not at all necessary in writing Latin except perhaps if you want read a speech without knowing where are the long and the short vovels.

2) Nobody, even Avitus, in our days pronunces Latin with the short and long vovels. See him in You tube. And if differentiating short and long vovels are almost important in speaking it is not at all in writing. And by education we know, especially in France, that we never write like we speak.

> Thanks for simplifying our lives.

No matter. It was a fun.

Optime vale.
C. Petronius Dexter

Ave Quadra,

> In a revival sense of applying the truest form of classic Latin, I will use CARE-tee to pronounce CERTI.

In my opinion if I hear CARE-tee in place to certi, I think "Oh this Latin speaker is from Britannia." :o)

Optime Vale.
C. Petronius Dexter

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Sie sind Spam leid? Yahoo! Mail verfügt über einen herausragenden Schutz gegen Massenmails.
http://mail.yahoo.com

Ave Galeri Pauline,

> Here is the Lex Galeria de cursu honorum that I proposed in 2760. I introduce here as a point for discussion. If it had been adopted then we would have missed a number of controversies and fights. Any suggestions for its improvement are welcome.

Your proposal of law is obssessed by the word "full term". But, as we have seen about the hard discussion on the resignation of Laenas from his praetroship and the candidacy of Modianus the word "term" can have more than one meaning and controversies had risen on that...

This condition of "full term" is not Roman too, and the Ancient had thought to have suffect magistrates. This custom of many suffect magistrates were very used during the Empire period in which, as our sources can give us, we have the ability to count many years with many suffect consuls.
For example the year 30 BC:
Consuls : Imp.Caesar divi Julii f. IV - M. Licinius M.f. Crassus (from july 1st: C. Antistius Vetus, from September 13: M. Tullius M.f Cicero, and from November 1st: L. Saenius L.f. Balbinus.

I gave this example because the son of Cicero was Consul in this year, but it was the same in many other years. So in this case what was a "full term"?

Optime vale.
C. Petronius Dexter

L. Livia Plauta omnibus S.P.D.

The easiest way to have apices on your keybord is installing the Spanish keyboard layout on your computer (or the Hungarian one), at least under Windows.

Then you will have all the apices available with one keystroke (you just have to memorize where the characters are).

Let's see if the apices survive Yahoo (I'm writing from the website).

Here's a forest of wonderful apices for all of you:

ááááááááááééééééééééééíííííííííííííóóóóóóóóóóóóóúúúúúúúúúúúúúúúúúúúúú
ááááááááááááááéééééééééééíííííííííííííííííííóóóóóóóóóóóóóóúúúúúúúúúúú
úúúúúúúúúúúóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóííííííííííííííííííííííííááááááááááááááá



And to all the French speakers:
if you don't want to use the restituta it's your choice. The restituta, meant as a reconstuction of the actual classical pronounciation requires you to pronounce vowel lenghts. A pronounciation with incorrect vowel lenghts would have earned you a lot of laughter in classical times.

I know learning vowel lengths takes a lot of effort from those of us who learned Latin without them: that's why I'm taking the Sermo course and re-learning Latin all over again.

So please, you French be frank and say: "I don't feel like learning how to use apices" instead of saying: "apices are useless".


Optime valete,
Livia

>
> >
> >
> >
> > A. Tullia Scholastica Cn. Cornelio Lentulo suo C. Petronio Dextro P. Memmio
> > Albucio quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque bonae voluntatis, praesertim Gallis,
> > S.P.D.
> >
> > Lentulus Petronio tribuni plebis candidato et Memmio consuli candidato sal.
> >
> >
> > On the contrary, I think length markers are the best thing in Latin
> > orthography we can do with it! Without them, it is extremely hard to learn the
> > Classical pronunciation, it's almost impossible.
> >
> > ATS: R�ct� d�cis. It is traditional for the vowel lengths to be marked
> > in elementary Latin texts, as well as intermediate and advanced ones at the
> > high school level. What is different is that the macron is typically used,
> > and that a) does not transfer well over the net, even when available, and b)
> > is confusing because it marks syllable length as well as vowel length. Now,
> > as you are well aware, Lentule, syllable length is quite important in Latin
> > verse, for that, not stress, is the basis for Latin metrics, but other than
> > that and the position of the stress accent, syllable length is less important
> > than vowel length for correct Latin pronunciation. In the days when no one
> > spoke Latin, and the very thought thereof was deemed utterly ridiculous, it
> > did not matter much if the vowels were left unmarked. We, however, hope to
> > have left those benighted times behind us, and know that a good many people,
> > not all of whom are Latinists, do in fact speak Latin...and for that, one must
> > know the vowel quantities unless one confines oneself to the Italian or other
> > late pronunciations dating from eras when Latin had lost this distinction.
> >
> > And to me they are also beautiful :)
> >
> > Sed d� gustibus...
> >
> > ATS: d� gustibus...but I find it unusual that nostri Galli, and a student
> > from France in my Combined Sermo course, find it quite difficult to comprehend
> > these distinctions. As I pointed out in said class, there is a distinction
> > between p�lus and pal�s, between labrum and l�brum, as well as between other
> > words and numerous present and perfect tense verbs in the third person
> > singular, particularly those in the third conjugation.
> >
> > This entire thread is so auspicious as I have been at Livia's and I was
> > inserting apices into his Latin book with a pencil because it didn't have
> > them, and Livia asked to me sign all vowel length in her book. She wants to
> > learn correct Classical pronounciation.
> >
> > ATS: Good for both of you! Macte virt�te!
> >
> > I am on the firm opinion that a future Latin world language in its orthography
> > must always mark vowel length.
> >
> > ATS: Then the OCTs and Teubners and Loebs would have to be reprinted...
> > ;-) As a rule, in this country at least, vowel length is not marked in Latin,
> > even when it does make a difference...but then no one expected that people
> > would actually speak Latin, and need these little things. For strictly
> > written Latin, the apices or other markings are less necessary unless there is
> > a minimal pair, but for spoken Latin, that is another matter. In any case,
> > it�s a good idea.
> >
> >
> > Val�te optim�, am�c�!
> >
> > Val�, et val�te!
> >
> >
> >
> > --- Ven 6/11/09, publiusalbucius <albucius_aoe@...> ha scritto:
> >>
> >> Da: publiusalbucius <albucius_aoe@...>
> >> Oggetto: [Nova-Roma] Apices and stress marks on our written Latin
> >> A: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> >> Data: Venerd� 6 novembre 2009, 23:38
> >>
> >> Dextro Aquilaeque s.d.
> >>
> >> Excellent message, Dexter, for you well explain, for pedagogical and
> >> supported by ancient sources themselves.
> >>
> >> In fact, it seems that apices/stress marks have been used since last fifteen
> >> years by some Latin teachers or scholars. I know some British ones used them
> >> ; maybe in other countries?
> >>
> >> But it seems that the interesting tool that can be stress marks on letters to
> >> bring beginners to understand that Latin is - also - an accentuated language
> >> have been extended unusefully to written Latin. Here is one typical
> >> phenomenon: a tool brings a good thing but in a second phase, the mis-use or
> >> abuse of this tool create a worse situation.
> >>
> >> Such reminders as yours are useful.
> >>
> >> Valete,
> >>
> >> P. Memmius Albucius
> >> pr. cand. consul
> >>
> >> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
> >> </mc/compose?to=Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com> , "luciaiuliaaquila"
> >> <dis_pensible@ ...> wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> > Ave Petroni,
> >>> >
> >>> > Ok now you have made me moan and groan because I was just getting the hang
> >>> of the apices and now I find out they are not classic in the sense I am
> >>> using them.
> >>> > Ok � you're right. I looked in one of the few Loeb Classical Library
> >>> copies I have � not that I doubt you;)
> >>> >
> >>> > I will leave the apices to the Flamines then, it makes my education, such
> >>> as it is, a bit easier.
> >>> >
> >>> > *laughs* I really was liking them though, they were like a new toy �
> >>> >
> >>> > Bene vale,
> >>> >
> >>> > Julia
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
> >>> </mc/compose?to=Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com> , "petronius_dexter"
> >>> <jfarnoud94@ > wrote:
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > C. Petronius L. Juliae s.p.d.,
> >>>> > >
> >>>>> > > > As for aspices - I cannot create aspices on yahoo (even in rich
> >>>>> text),nor can I through hotmail.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > Nobody used apices in writing Latin. These signs are not beautiful nor
> >>>> useful and absolutely not Roman. For example, amica Julia, have a look on
> >>>> the Loeb Classical Library Latin/English books. In France too, in the
> >>>> venerable edition of Les Belles Lettres nobody uses these apices.
> >>>> > > Quintilianus himself the great Latin grammarian is against this "Greek"
> >>>> custom, see his phrase "longis syllabis omnibus adponere apicem
> >>>> ineptissimum est" (I,7,2). He allows the apex only to avoid the confusion
> >>>> inter two words written in the same way but different in their meanings and
> >>>> in the quantity of their vocal. For example between malus (bad) with a
> >>>> short "a" and m�lus(apple tree) with a long "a" and to differentiate
> >>>> between the nominative -a and the ablative -�. He thinks and I agree with
> >>>> him that except these cases it is very inane (ineptissimum) to mark with an
> >>>> apex every long vocals. And it is not beautiful.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > I have under my hand a copy of a very old manuscript (4th century!) of
> >>>> the Georgicon of Vergil without one aspex. On the graffiti of Pompeii too
> >>>> you do not have one apex... those apices are the worst thing that we can
> >>>> offer to the Latin.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > Let us, please, the apices to the Flamines. ;o)
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > Vale.
> >>>> > > C. Petronius Dexter
> >>>> > >
> >>> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Salve,

In case anyone interested, I am doing a talk in the Roman City of Bath on Stellar Magic, Roman Cult of Mithras and related subjects.

Regards,
Nabarz

A talk on 'Stellar Magic' by Payam Nabarz, he will be talking on his latest book:

Stellar Magic A practical guide to the rites of the Moon, Planets, Stars & Constellations.

http://www.stellarmagic.co.uk

Host: Omphalos Magickal Moot
Date: Sunday, 08 November 2009
Time: 14:00 - 17:00
Location: Upstairs at the Huntsman Pub
Street: 1 Terrace Walk, North Parade
Town/City: Bath, United Kingdom

C. Petronius L. Juliae s.p.d.,

> Ok now you have made me moan and groan because I was just getting the hang of the apices and now I find out they are not classic in the sense I am using them.

If you want to have a speech, id est speak Latin, and if you do not know where are the long vowels, you can use this system of apices. Of course. But, in fact the problem, is rather to mark the syllab of the word with the accent.

When you read Latin poems, if you know the versus system, for example the Dactylic Hexameters, quicly you will read without the help of the notations of the short and long vowels. For example, I never used the apices help and I wrote many classical poems with the scansion of the short and long vowels. So I am the living proof that the apices are not necessary to know where are the long and the short vowels. It is enough to learn etymology and the endings of the declensions and conjugations.

It is more interesting to learn the length of the vowels than to make ugly the Latin writing.

I wonder if you are happy if, as no native English speaker, I force you to mark with apices in English the long vowels and with an another sign the mark where is the accent of the word as it is written in my dictionary.

When I read the English word "forbidding" I do not know, by none sign, where the word has his accent. And English is a spoken language, so this sign should be very important for me. As French, with my native custom to stress words, I should think that the accent is in -ing. So in French fashion the word is said forbiddíng. But, nobody is perfect, my dictionary shows me that the accent is on the first syllab, fórbidding. It is impossible for me to know that without the sign in my dictionary.

So, before spoiling the written Latin, which is a language less used than English, I suggest English people to change their writing fashion in stressing their words with a sign, for the long vowels it will be a second step.

> Ok – you're right. I looked in one of the few Loeb Classical Library copies I have – not that I doubt you;)

Yes, this edition is serious. ;o)

> *laughs* I really was liking them though, they were like a new toy –

I prefer the sign used on some poetical treatises to significate the short and long vowels and we find them too in some dictionaries. Those signs are less agressive than the apex.

Prospere vale.

C. Petronius Dexter

Lentulo Scholasticae Dextro amicis omnibusque s.d.

> And to me they are also beautiful :)
> Sed de gustibus...

Yes, here, as Scholastica has noticed it, it is a "matter of tastes and colors": it depends on our individual or cultural preferences.
This is like teens in internet clans who write their names in a strange way with [[@_ etc. : they find them beautiful... and why not?

>length markers are the best thing in Latin (..)Without them, it is >extremely hard to learn the Classical pronunciation, it's almost >impossible.

Yes, why not, as long as these marks are kept in the/our school books, which help us lerning Latin. I suppose our ancestors might have acted the same way with children at school. When small Tullilus became Cicero, he has well learnt enough not to use the apices any longer.

So as long as such marks will *help* people in learning Latin, they will be positive, as you Lentule well translate it with Livia's book case.

From the moment they will let people believe that written Latin would use stress marks, such a tool could lead to a not wished effect: making us believe that Latins stressed their writings, what they did not.

Once we are therefore cautious enough to separate both fields (our learning on one hand and our writing on the other), apices are welcome if they cannot help more people to come to Latin, which is our common aim! :-)


Valete bene omnes,



P. Memmius Albucius
pr., cand. consul

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cn. Cornelius Lentulus" <cn_corn_lent@...> wrote:
>
> Lentulus Petronio tribuni plebis candidato et Memmio consuli candidato sal.
>
>
> On the contrary, I think length markers are the best thing in Latin orthography we can do with it! Without them, it is extremely hard to learn the Classical pronunciation, it's almost impossible.
>
> And to me they are also beautiful :)
>
> Sed dé gustibus...
>
> This entire thread is so auspicious as I have been at Livia's and I was inserting apices into his Latin book with a pencil because it didn't have them, and Livia asked to me sign all vowel length in her book. She wants to learn correct Classical pronounciation.
>
> I am on the firm opinion that a future Latin world language in its orthography must always mark vowel length.
>
>
> Valéte optimé, amící!
>
>
>
> --- Ven 6/11/09, publiusalbucius <albucius_aoe@...> ha scritto:
>
> Da: publiusalbucius <albucius_aoe@...>
> Oggetto: [Nova-Roma] Apices and stress marks on our written Latin
> A: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Data: Venerdì 6 novembre 2009, 23:38
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dextro Aquilaeque s.d.
>
>
>
> Excellent message, Dexter, for you well explain, for pedagogical and supported by ancient sources themselves.
>
>
>
> In fact, it seems that apices/stress marks have been used since last fifteen years by some Latin teachers or scholars. I know some British ones used them ; maybe in other countries?
>
>
>
> But it seems that the interesting tool that can be stress marks on letters to bring beginners to understand that Latin is - also - an accentuated language have been extended unusefully to written Latin. Here is one typical phenomenon: a tool brings a good thing but in a second phase, the mis-use or abuse of this tool create a worse situation.
>
>
>
> Such reminders as yours are useful.
>
>
>
> Valete,
>
>
>
> P. Memmius Albucius
>
> pr. cand. consul
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, "luciaiuliaaquila" <dis_pensible@ ...> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Ave Petroni,
>
> >
>
> > Ok now you have made me moan and groan because I was just getting the hang of the apices and now I find out they are not classic in the sense I am using them.
>
> > Ok â€" you're right. I looked in one of the few Loeb Classical Library copies I have â€" not that I doubt you;)
>
> >
>
> > I will leave the apices to the Flamines then, it makes my education, such as it is, a bit easier.
>
> >
>
> > *laughs* I really was liking them though, they were like a new toy â€"
>
> >
>
> > Bene vale,
>
> >
>
> > Julia
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@ > wrote:
>
> > >
>
> > > C. Petronius L. Juliae s.p.d.,
>
> > >
>
> > > > As for aspices - I cannot create aspices on yahoo (even in rich text),nor can I through hotmail.
>
> > >
>
> > > Nobody used apices in writing Latin. These signs are not beautiful nor useful and absolutely not Roman. For example, amica Julia, have a look on the Loeb Classical Library Latin/English books. In France too, in the venerable edition of Les Belles Lettres nobody uses these apices.
>
> > > Quintilianus himself the great Latin grammarian is against this "Greek" custom, see his phrase "longis syllabis omnibus adponere apicem ineptissimum est" (I,7,2). He allows the apex only to avoid the confusion inter two words written in the same way but different in their meanings and in the quantity of their vocal. For example between malus (bad) with a short "a" and málus(apple tree) with a long "a" and to differentiate between the nominative -a and the ablative -á. He thinks and I agree with him that except these cases it is very inane (ineptissimum) to mark with an apex every long vocals. And it is not beautiful.
>
> > >
>
> > > I have under my hand a copy of a very old manuscript (4th century!) of the Georgicon of Vergil without one aspex. On the graffiti of Pompeii too you do not have one apex... those apices are the worst thing that we can offer to the Latin.
>
> > >
>
> > > Let us, please, the apices to the Flamines. ;o)
>
> > >
>
> > > Vale.
>
> > > C. Petronius Dexter
>
> > >
>
> >
>

Oh, oh, let's try again.

áááááááááááááéééééééééééééééééééééééééííííííííííííííííóóóóóóóóóóóóóúúúúúúúú

Now I set the language as Spanish. Let's see what happens.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "livia_plauta" <livia.plauta@...> wrote:
>
> L. Livia Plauta omnibus S.P.D.
>
> The easiest way to have apices on your keybord is installing the Spanish keyboard layout on your computer (or the Hungarian one), at least under Windows.
>
> Then you will have all the apices available with one keystroke (you just have to memorize where the characters are).
>
> Let's see if the apices survive Yahoo (I'm writing from the website).
>
> Here's a forest of wonderful apices for all of you:
>
> ááááááááááééééééééééééíííííííííííííóóóóóóóóóóóóóúúúúúúúúúúúúúúúúúúúúú
> ááááááááááááááéééééééééééíííííííííííííííííííóóóóóóóóóóóóóóúúúúúúúúúúú
> úúúúúúúúúúúóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóííííííííííííííííííííííííááááááááááááááá
>
>
>
> And to all the French speakers:
> if you don't want to use the restituta it's your choice. The restituta, meant as a reconstuction of the actual classical pronounciation requires you to pronounce vowel lenghts. A pronounciation with incorrect vowel lenghts would have earned you a lot of laughter in classical times.
>
> I know learning vowel lengths takes a lot of effort from those of us who learned Latin without them: that's why I'm taking the Sermo course and re-learning Latin all over again.
>
> So please, you French be frank and say: "I don't feel like learning how to use apices" instead of saying: "apices are useless".
>
>
> Optime valete,
> Livia
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > A. Tullia Scholastica Cn. Cornelio Lentulo suo C. Petronio Dextro P. Memmio
> > > Albucio quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque bonae voluntatis, praesertim Gallis,
> > > S.P.D.
> > >
> > > Lentulus Petronio tribuni plebis candidato et Memmio consuli candidato sal.
> > >
> > >
> > > On the contrary, I think length markers are the best thing in Latin
> > > orthography we can do with it! Without them, it is extremely hard to learn the
> > > Classical pronunciation, it's almost impossible.
> > >
> > > ATS: R�ct� d�cis. It is traditional for the vowel lengths to be marked
> > > in elementary Latin texts, as well as intermediate and advanced ones at the
> > > high school level. What is different is that the macron is typically used,
> > > and that a) does not transfer well over the net, even when available, and b)
> > > is confusing because it marks syllable length as well as vowel length. Now,
> > > as you are well aware, Lentule, syllable length is quite important in Latin
> > > verse, for that, not stress, is the basis for Latin metrics, but other than
> > > that and the position of the stress accent, syllable length is less important
> > > than vowel length for correct Latin pronunciation. In the days when no one
> > > spoke Latin, and the very thought thereof was deemed utterly ridiculous, it
> > > did not matter much if the vowels were left unmarked. We, however, hope to
> > > have left those benighted times behind us, and know that a good many people,
> > > not all of whom are Latinists, do in fact speak Latin...and for that, one must
> > > know the vowel quantities unless one confines oneself to the Italian or other
> > > late pronunciations dating from eras when Latin had lost this distinction.
> > >
> > > And to me they are also beautiful :)
> > >
> > > Sed d� gustibus...
> > >
> > > ATS: d� gustibus...but I find it unusual that nostri Galli, and a student
> > > from France in my Combined Sermo course, find it quite difficult to comprehend
> > > these distinctions. As I pointed out in said class, there is a distinction
> > > between p�lus and pal�s, between labrum and l�brum, as well as between other
> > > words and numerous present and perfect tense verbs in the third person
> > > singular, particularly those in the third conjugation.
> > >
> > > This entire thread is so auspicious as I have been at Livia's and I was
> > > inserting apices into his Latin book with a pencil because it didn't have
> > > them, and Livia asked to me sign all vowel length in her book. She wants to
> > > learn correct Classical pronounciation.
> > >
> > > ATS: Good for both of you! Macte virt�te!
> > >
> > > I am on the firm opinion that a future Latin world language in its orthography
> > > must always mark vowel length.
> > >
> > > ATS: Then the OCTs and Teubners and Loebs would have to be reprinted...
> > > ;-) As a rule, in this country at least, vowel length is not marked in Latin,
> > > even when it does make a difference...but then no one expected that people
> > > would actually speak Latin, and need these little things. For strictly
> > > written Latin, the apices or other markings are less necessary unless there is
> > > a minimal pair, but for spoken Latin, that is another matter. In any case,
> > > it�s a good idea.
> > >
> > >
> > > Val�te optim�, am�c�!
> > >
> > > Val�, et val�te!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- Ven 6/11/09, publiusalbucius <albucius_aoe@> ha scritto:
> > >>
> > >> Da: publiusalbucius <albucius_aoe@>
> > >> Oggetto: [Nova-Roma] Apices and stress marks on our written Latin
> > >> A: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > >> Data: Venerd� 6 novembre 2009, 23:38
> > >>
> > >> Dextro Aquilaeque s.d.
> > >>
> > >> Excellent message, Dexter, for you well explain, for pedagogical and
> > >> supported by ancient sources themselves.
> > >>
> > >> In fact, it seems that apices/stress marks have been used since last fifteen
> > >> years by some Latin teachers or scholars. I know some British ones used them
> > >> ; maybe in other countries?
> > >>
> > >> But it seems that the interesting tool that can be stress marks on letters to
> > >> bring beginners to understand that Latin is - also - an accentuated language
> > >> have been extended unusefully to written Latin. Here is one typical
> > >> phenomenon: a tool brings a good thing but in a second phase, the mis-use or
> > >> abuse of this tool create a worse situation.
> > >>
> > >> Such reminders as yours are useful.
> > >>
> > >> Valete,
> > >>
> > >> P. Memmius Albucius
> > >> pr. cand. consul
> > >>
> > >> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
> > >> </mc/compose?to=Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com> , "luciaiuliaaquila"
> > >> <dis_pensible@ ...> wrote:
> > >>> >
> > >>> > Ave Petroni,
> > >>> >
> > >>> > Ok now you have made me moan and groan because I was just getting the hang
> > >>> of the apices and now I find out they are not classic in the sense I am
> > >>> using them.
> > >>> > Ok � you're right. I looked in one of the few Loeb Classical Library
> > >>> copies I have � not that I doubt you;)
> > >>> >
> > >>> > I will leave the apices to the Flamines then, it makes my education, such
> > >>> as it is, a bit easier.
> > >>> >
> > >>> > *laughs* I really was liking them though, they were like a new toy �
> > >>> >
> > >>> > Bene vale,
> > >>> >
> > >>> > Julia
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
> > >>> </mc/compose?to=Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com> , "petronius_dexter"
> > >>> <jfarnoud94@ > wrote:
> > >>>> > >
> > >>>> > > C. Petronius L. Juliae s.p.d.,
> > >>>> > >
> > >>>>> > > > As for aspices - I cannot create aspices on yahoo (even in rich
> > >>>>> text),nor can I through hotmail.
> > >>>> > >
> > >>>> > > Nobody used apices in writing Latin. These signs are not beautiful nor
> > >>>> useful and absolutely not Roman. For example, amica Julia, have a look on
> > >>>> the Loeb Classical Library Latin/English books. In France too, in the
> > >>>> venerable edition of Les Belles Lettres nobody uses these apices.
> > >>>> > > Quintilianus himself the great Latin grammarian is against this "Greek"
> > >>>> custom, see his phrase "longis syllabis omnibus adponere apicem
> > >>>> ineptissimum est" (I,7,2). He allows the apex only to avoid the confusion
> > >>>> inter two words written in the same way but different in their meanings and
> > >>>> in the quantity of their vocal. For example between malus (bad) with a
> > >>>> short "a" and m�lus(apple tree) with a long "a" and to differentiate
> > >>>> between the nominative -a and the ablative -�. He thinks and I agree with
> > >>>> him that except these cases it is very inane (ineptissimum) to mark with an
> > >>>> apex every long vocals. And it is not beautiful.
> > >>>> > >
> > >>>> > > I have under my hand a copy of a very old manuscript (4th century!) of
> > >>>> the Georgicon of Vergil without one aspex. On the graffiti of Pompeii too
> > >>>> you do not have one apex... those apices are the worst thing that we can
> > >>>> offer to the Latin.
> > >>>> > >
> > >>>> > > Let us, please, the apices to the Flamines. ;o)
> > >>>> > >
> > >>>> > > Vale.
> > >>>> > > C. Petronius Dexter
> > >>>> > >
> > >>> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

C. Petronius L. Plautae sal.,

> And to all the French speakers:
> if you don't want to use the restituta it's your choice.

The use of aspices is not the restituta way. Give-me one Latin modern method with the apices, even an Italian or English edition. It is not a "French" problem.

> The restituta, meant as a reconstuction of the actual classical pronounciation requires you to pronounce vowel lenghts. A pronounciation with incorrect vowel lenghts would have earned you a lot of laughter in classical times.

The classical using of the lenght of vowel is not known for sure, and even an author as Augustinus professed that in his time (IVth century) this difference was not yet known. Even the poets of the late Antiquity were not able to compose classical verses.

Nobody knows how those vowels were pronounced.

> I know learning vowel lengths takes a lot of effort from those of us who learned Latin without them: that's why I'm taking the Sermo course and re-learning Latin all over again.

You have to learn the lenght of the vowels if you want use a rhetorical prose, as Cicero, and make "scholar clausulae" or if you want to compose classical verses not at all to "pronounce" them. Nobody knows how they were pronounced.

> So please, you French be frank

I like your pun!

> and say: "I don't feel like learning how to use apices" instead of saying: "apices are useless".

As I am frank I will not say this thing. And I frankly repeat: apices are not at all useless to write Latin and moreover they are uggly. Begin to put apices on the Italian words, if they are so beutiful and useful.

Optime vale.
C. Petronius Dexter

Ave Quadra,

> CARE-tee = certi = British. How would you pronounce; where is it derived?

It is very difficult to explain how a word is pronounced. And this eplanation "CARE-tee" for "certi" is amazing for me. But it is because I am not able to ear the same letters than you.

For example, when you vrite "I" you say something that "aille" for me and like "ayy" for you... so perhaps do you read certi as "se:tayy"? And to explain you that the word is pronounced "kerti" Scholastica is forced to use this amazing "CARE-tee".

Bene vale.
C. Petronius Dexter

Salve Dexter,

A full term is 365/6 days, From January 1^st through Dec 31^st of a given year. A suffect term would be 182 days. It is the same standard as in the constitution i.e. one year.
 
We can add this definition to the lex if that helps.
 
I am not sure using the terms of office for one of the last years of the Roman republic and in the middle of a civil war is a good idea.
 
Any other suggestions?
 
Vale
 
Ti. Galerius Paulinus

 

---

To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
From: jfarnoud94@...
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 11:31:28 +0000
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: For discussion :Lex Galeria de cursu honorum as proposed in 2760

 

Ave Pauline,

> A full term is 365/6 days, From January 1st through Dec 31st of a given year. A suffect term would be 182 days. It is the same standard as in the constitution i.e. one year.

As you know, the "year" for almost all magistracies are from January 1st to December 31st, but the tribunes year is from December 10th through December 9th on the following year.

So with your law how a magistrate holding his charge from January 1st can be a Tribune candidate on 10th December ? He does not have a full term when the candidacies to the Plebeian tribunate have to be announced. So he could not be Tribune candidate.

But in this case your law is less interesting than the actual Nova Roman rules. Who would a regression law?

Vale.
C. Petronius Dexter

Salve Dexter,
 
"As you know, the "year" for almost all magistracies are from January 1st to December 31st, but the tribunes year is from December 10th through December 9th on the following year."
 
"So with your law how a magistrate holding his charge from January 1st can be a Tribune candidate on 10th December ? He does not have a full term when the candidacies to the Plebeian tribunate have to be announced. So he could not be Tribune candidate."

Yes that is right and they could not stand if this was adopted. But if it is adopted in some form NO current official holder could be a candidate anyway until a year out of office. There is also  a conflict between the lex that sets December 10th as the day a Tribunes term starts and the constitution that sets a different date for Tribunes to take office.
 
Vale
 
Ti. Galerius Paulinus



 

---

To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
From: jfarnoud94@...
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 15:27:32 +0000
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: For discussion :Lex Galeria de cursu honorum as proposed in 2760

 

Ave Quadra,

> You're right about written vs spoken language apps.

We can think that many things about the pronounciation of the Latin are definitively missed.

I read this little passage from the De divinatione of Cicero, in his books (II,84) he quotes a kind of pun, that some had taken as a warning of the gods to Crassus. As this general was leaving Rome to the Asian front, a pedlar of figs was claiming : Cauneas! (Cauneae were figs of Caunos) So his claim meant "Buy my figs of Caunos!" But Roman ears can hear this warning: "Cave ne eas" [Do not go! (in Asia)] because of the both words sound in a sort of "Kavneas! or perhaps Kaoneas!".

So now, use the so-called pronunciation "restituta" and to do that use the apices. In the first case you have "Cáuneás" in the second you obtain :"Cavé né eás". As you can see the short an long vowels are not at the same places in the both case. A pupil using the pronunciation so-called "restituta" is not able to hear the warning of the Gods, but the Romans living at the time of Cicero had heart it.

So what? If the pronounciation of the Latin is missed in its great part, can not we speak Latin? We can speak it, of course. But, in my opinion, we have to stop to use the word "restituta" pronounciation, which sounds scholar fraud, because no one of the Romans living in the time of Cicero can correct us, and we do not have one sound record of the speechs of Cicero, and above all when he give us a pun over "Cauneas", one pun, he destroys the scholar pronunciation... So we have to be humble.

Vale.
C. Petronius Dexter

L. Livia C. Petronio sal.

The most known method of "living Latin", Oerberg's "Lingua latina per se illustrata" marks vowel lenght, and so do all textbooks in Hungary, Germany, and probably a lot of other countries.
They do so with macrons, rather than apices, because this is the convention, however since macrons are used to mark syllable lenght Avitus suggests apices to mark vowel lenght instead, and this is a rational suggestion, considering that the ancients never used macrons (but apices), and that in a modern computer it's much easier to use apices than macrons. (This independently fron the fact that it seems impossible for me to get apices through Yahoo's system).

Actually a lot is known about the pronounciation of classical Latin, probably more than about the pronounciation of French in the XII century.
One thing is sure, that long vowels were pronounced long, but we have precise information about the quality of vowels and consonants too.

By the time of Augustinus, of course, the pronounciation had changed a lot, and vocalic length no longer counted. But I don't need to learn the pronounciation of Augustinus' times, because that's the one I used at school.

That apices are ugly is a weird opinion. Of course they are used in Italian (they are just called accents and used to mark syllabic stress), as they are in French. But if you really want to see a lot of apices look at this: www.index.hu or at any other text in Hungarian! In Hungarian, like in Czech and Slovakian, they are used to mark vowel lenght.

Optime vale,
Livia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@...> wrote:
>
> C. Petronius L. Plautae sal.,
>
> > And to all the French speakers:
> > if you don't want to use the restituta it's your choice.
>
> The use of aspices is not the restituta way. Give-me one Latin modern method with the apices, even an Italian or English edition. It is not a "French" problem.
>
> > The restituta, meant as a reconstuction of the actual classical pronounciation requires you to pronounce vowel lenghts. A pronounciation with incorrect vowel lenghts would have earned you a lot of laughter in classical times.
>
> The classical using of the lenght of vowel is not known for sure, and even an author as Augustinus professed that in his time (IVth century) this difference was not yet known. Even the poets of the late Antiquity were not able to compose classical verses.
>
> Nobody knows how those vowels were pronounced.
>
> > I know learning vowel lengths takes a lot of effort from those of us who learned Latin without them: that's why I'm taking the Sermo course and re-learning Latin all over again.
>
> You have to learn the lenght of the vowels if you want use a rhetorical prose, as Cicero, and make "scholar clausulae" or if you want to compose classical verses not at all to "pronounce" them. Nobody knows how they were pronounced.
>
> > So please, you French be frank
>
> I like your pun!
>
> > and say: "I don't feel like learning how to use apices" instead of saying: "apices are useless".
>
> As I am frank I will not say this thing. And I frankly repeat: apices are not at all useless to write Latin and moreover they are uggly. Begin to put apices on the Italian words, if they are so beutiful and useful.
>
> Optime vale.
> C. Petronius Dexter
>

Salve Dr. Nabarz:

Although I am a bit too far away to attend your lecture, I've just read the details on your book, and it does look like an intriguing read.

I hope your presentation goes well.

Vale
Pompeia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Nabarz" <nabarz@...> wrote:
>
> Salve,
>
> In case anyone interested, I am doing a talk in the Roman City of Bath on Stellar Magic, Roman Cult of Mithras and related subjects.
>
> Regards,
> Nabarz
>
> A talk on 'Stellar Magic' by Payam Nabarz, he will be talking on his latest book:
>
> Stellar Magic A practical guide to the rites of the Moon, Planets, Stars & Constellations.
>
> http://www.stellarmagic.co.uk
>
> Host: Omphalos Magickal Moot
> Date: Sunday, 08 November 2009
> Time: 14:00 - 17:00
> Location: Upstairs at the Huntsman Pub
> Street: 1 Terrace Walk, North Parade
> Town/City: Bath, United Kingdom
>

Po Minucia Strabo A. Tulliae Scholasticae S.P.D.

In response to your appreciated remarks below:

I am not on line a lot and I generally avoid discussion altogether on resignations, because back in 2002 I resigned late term as Praetor. In addition, due to familial considerations I resigned from the Senate in 2008. I am hardly lilly pure in this regard, so I'm never a 'tempest of criticism' in these matters.

The subtle difference here is that we have a magistrate who tenders to the ML a rather elaborate post of personal justification for why he is resigning a position of election official, a position where his services are required more than ever (generally this is the busiest time for these magistrates) to pursue the Tribunate, apparently to serve us better.

Most individuals, unless they've abandoned NR altogether, usually regret a resignation...they don't write an essay justifying same, on the basis of other accomplishments, noteworthy as they may be.

I initially thought Corvus was a Custos but I see he's a Diribitor. My mistake, but it doesn't make circumstances any different that I can see. I hope there are enough available Diribitores. I really dislike the notion of the Senate appointing vote counters for elections in the Comitia of the people.

The above rant written, I wholly respect your right to disagree with me, and from my perspective, I have said enough on the issue.

Vale
Pompeia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Tullia Scholastica" <fororom@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > A. Tullia Scholastica Pompeiae Minuciae Straboni quiritibus bonae voluntatis
> > S.P.D.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Salvete Omnes:
> >
> > I believe that Galerius Censor has strong arguments in this issue.
> >
> > The resignation of a magisterial post of such importance as election official,
> > so close to election time, in personal pursuit of another candidacy, suggests
> > opportunism and ambition....sorry for the harsh delivery.
> >
> > It is an important position...not one to be abandoned casually, and at such an
> > improper time...regardless of how weighted said candidate's past political or
> > religious service to NR is assessed.
> >
> > I was once custos, after being Consul, and neither myself nor my colleague,
> > Vipsianus Agrippa abandoned office in favour of personal magisterial
> > opportunity. We understood that in taking the position we couldn't run for an
> > office the subsequent year. We did our duties.
> >
> > It seems to me:
> > When a servant/magistrate/custos of the comitia populi tributa resigns at the
> > *last minute*, pursuing to be a servant of the people as a tribunus plebis,
> > the Senate may (must) replace his existing Custos position with a suffectus
> > custos by prevailing law....
> >
> >
> > ATS: Generally I try to avoid this sort of discussion, but if memory
> > serves, this is neither the first time that an election official has resigned,
> > nor the first time one has done so to run for another office, nor the first
> > time one has done so at the last minute. I can think of at least two examples
> > of the second two of these, and at least one of the third. It is indeed
> > deplorable to resign a post to which one has been elected, and that too, at a
> > crucial time, but the others I can recall seem to have passed almost
> > unnoticed, whereas that of Corvus (whom I do not know at all) seems to have
> > produced a tempest of criticism. Maybe we should rethink the method of
> > selection of the election officials; perhaps choosing them when needed from a
> > pool such as that of the index judicum might be a good idea.
> >
> > So, if I understanding things correctly......
> >
> > ...By Corvus Custos' resignation he first *serves* the people to freely *give
> > away* the peoples' choice for election judge....to the whims of the Senate to
> > replace him... yet he then proposes to run for Tribune of the Plebs....a
> > defender of the rights of the people and their electoral choices??????
> >
> > Perhaps I need my * head read* but I must paraphrase:
> >
> > How can one resign a magistracy, and in so doing give the peoples' voice to
> > the pleasure of the Senate, yet claim to be a servant of the peoples' voice,
> > as what is the duty of the Tribune of the Plebs?
> >
> > Valete bene
> >
> > Pompeia
> >
> > Vale, et valete.
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com> ,
> > Timothy or Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Salve Marcus Octavius Corvus,
> >> >
> >> > Resigning as an election official in order to stand for another office is
> >> at best against the SPRIT of the laws that govern our elections. It seems to
> >> be another loophole in Nova Roman law that we allow election officials to
> >> resign from office and then stand in the same elections they should have been
> >> supervising.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Your resignation as Diribitor should not have been excepted and you should
> >> not be a candidate.
> >> >
> >> > I believe that we have had three of the four Diribitors resign from office
> >> this year.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Citizens expect election officials to serve during election time.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Vale
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Ti. Galerius Paulinus
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>
> >> > From: mcorvvs@
> >> > Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 05:21:25 +0000
> >> > Subject: [Nova-Roma] CORVVS. RESIGNATION
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Salvete omnes,
> >> >
> >> > I, Marcus Octavius Corvus, resign from the position of Diribitor to be able
> >> to run for office of Tribunus Plebis. I believe as Tribunus Plebis(if I will
> >> be elected)I will be able to serve our ResPublica more efficiently.
> >> >
> >> > Optime valete,
> >> >
> >> > CORVVS
> >> >
> >
> >
>

Salve Pauline,

> Yes that is right and they could not stand if this was adopted.

So give me a reason to adopt your proposal.

> But if it is adopted in some form NO current official holder could be a candidate anyway until a year out of office.

So for you a period of candidacy and a period of holding a magistracy are in concurrence. That is not fair. So, for example, a President during his mandate could not be a candidate for a second presidency? Your proposal does not work.

In place to use a winding way, you can propose that after one year of holding a magistracy, the magistrate is forced to have a year off. As during his magistracy he has an immunity, he has to be a single citizen after his year of magistracy to be under the possibility to have lawsuits against him.

An amendment in the law of the Cursus Honorum is enough without repealing laws in force.

> There is also a conflict between the lex that sets December 10th as the day a Tribunes term starts and the constitution that sets a different date for Tribunes to take office.

But December 10th is historical.

Vale.
C. Petronius Dexter

Salve Galerius Censor, Salvete Omnes:

I just caught this post on the list (likely because I saw my name in a law I had promulgated). Just a polite clarification if I may:

There is for sure a difference in the Lex Equitia and Lex Minucia regarding time frames for re-election of magistrates, and I agree that the Lex Minucia, being the more recent lex, takes precedence as per the constitution.

But neither of the above leges take precedence over the constitution, which still says In Section VD:

D. Should a magistrate's office become vacant during the course of his term, the Senate may appoint a replacement to serve out the remainder of the term should there be less than three months remaining therein.

And this clause, naturally trumps any lex on the matter.

I think the above clause is good...for *emergencies*. So I never personally challenged its presence. However,I don't care for a routine appointment of comitia magistrates by the Senate. I suppose another way magistrates could be replaced is by Senatus Consultum Ultimum, but I should think circumstances would have to be pretty grave that an election couldn't first be held for magistrates during the first 7 months of the year, before the Senate appointing them.

Valete
Pompeia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Timothy or Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@...> wrote:
>
>
> Salve Julia, Who said in part
>
> "I should think that asking for diribitors to be appointed would be more constructive than the counterproductive complaining about a resigning diribitor."
>
> First an foremost please remember we are talking about an election official resigning just prior to the main legally mandated elections held every fall for over ten years.
>
> Second new diribitors must be elected and can not be appointed. So we can not have any "new" diribitors until after these elections.
>
> There are two laws that deal with these matters.
>
> The first is the Lex Equitia de vigintisexviris which was adopted in 2004. It allowed for the appointment of replacements and if it was the only lex on the books dealing with the issue we would be fine.
>
> However in 2006 a new lex the Lex Minucia eiuratione magistratum was adopted which mandates replacements must be elected within 45 days.
>
> Under the constitution if two laws are in conflict then the MOST recently adopted one takes precedence
>
> I. Constitutional Basis B: Legal precedence
> Â….."Should a law passed by one of the comitia contradict one passed by another or the same comitia without explicitly superseding that law, the most recent law shall take precedence."
>
> So getting replacements for election officials this time of year is not as simple as some would have us believe.
>
> Vale
>
> Ti. Galerius Paulinus
>
>
>
>
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> From: dis_pensible@...
> Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 02:06:59 +0000
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] A solution for Gaulterus
>
>
>
>
>
> Salve Gaultere,
>
> I understand your dismay at losing a diribitor. I worked with you at the last election as diribitor suffecta and we worked well together – and we worked hard. It was a pleasure working with you and the others – everyone behaved professionally and with honesty.
> Having been diribitor suffecta I understand your motivation for this verbal discontent – you are now one less and you perceive that your job is going to be harder. This is understandable however, having been diribitor suffecta, I know that other citizens can be appointed to the position relatively easy. In the last election three were and we were all capable and professional.
>
> I should think that asking for diribitors to be appointed would be more constructive than the counterproductive complaining about a resigning diribitor.
>
> Vale optimé,
>
> Julia
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gualterus_graecus" <waltms1@> wrote:
> >
> > Salvete,
> >
> > And yet he can't do something as simple as hold to his duties as diribitor during the only regular elections of the year, nor did he do anything for the previous suffect elections. Conscientious? Trustworthy? His act of resignation is evidence to the contrary. I wish this were not the case!
> >
> > Corvus, I ask you to hold to your duty, do what you were elected to do. Do not act like someone merely interested in collecting official titles. Since you did nothing for the last suffect election at least do your duty for the only regular election of the year!
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > Gualterus
> >
>

Severus Omnibus sal.

I`m translating into Russian text of Lex Salicia poenalis from site of Nova Roma. I found an erratum in paragraph 18 and 19. The marking of these paragraphs and subparagraphs is broken.

Errors in the document of such level are inadmissible.

Optime valete!

Salve Severe,

I recommend you contact webmaster AT novaroma DOT org directly about
this. Issues of website formatting are better discussed that way than
in forum posts.

Vale,

-- Marinus

"T. Fl. Severus" <warbozz@...> writes:

> Severus Omnibus sal.
>
> I`m translating into Russian text of Lex Salicia poenalis from site
> of Nova Roma. I found an erratum in paragraph 18 and 19. The marking
> of these paragraphs and subparagraphs is broken.
>
> Errors in the document of such level are inadmissible.
>
> Optime valete!
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

CN-EQVIT-MARINVS

Wow! Not much I can add or say to that except thank you very much for your kind words and endorsement. I will do my very best to continue to serve our beloved Res publica.    Vale bene in pace Deorum,   Maxima Valeria Messallina Sacerdos Vestalis   --- On Wed, 11/4/09, C.Maria Caeca <c.mariacaeca@...> wrote: Salvete Omnes, I stand before you to endorse Maxima Valeria Messalina's candidacy for Tribune of the Plebs. I have given this considerable thought, because she is also our Virgo Maxima, and I felt it necessary to determine, in my own mind, whether there would be any conflict of interest, or whether, indeed, her participation in public life of this sort would be appropriate. I am no expert, of course, but I do remember in my albeit meager historical reading, that, unless forbidden by the structures of their priesthoods, Roman priests often occupied both priestly offices and civil, political offices. The Vestals also participated, somewhat, if only by their presence, in the public life of Republican Rome, although their duties were confined to the Temple of Vesta and to the keeping of, and safeguarding of, the wills of Roman citizens. Since women played no part in the civil public life of Roma Antiqua, I came to the conclusion that, like other religious officials, there would be no conflict should the Virgo maxima also serve as a Tribune, and that, in the unlikely case an issue should arise that might cause such a conflict, Maxima Valeria Messalina would recuse herself from speaking to that issue, as I have observed her to be a woman of thoughtfulness and honor. Since our Vestals don't keep our wills, she has no specific confidential knowledge about any of us that could affect her determinations, either, so I see no problem there. I have had the pleasure of observing Maxima Valeria Messalina since I first joined this organization, and I have always admired and liked what I saw of her public conduct. In short, I think she will bring wisdom, impartiality and dedication to this, or any position she holds in NR, and I will most certainly give her my vote. I urge you, good citizens, to do the same. Respectfully, C. Maria Caeca

Cato Petronio Dextero sal.

Salve.

The ancient ideal was always that magistrates *should* take a year off between holding offices, so it is not a matter of being "fair" or "unfair" but rather one of adapting ourselves to following the ancient practice more closely. It is unfortunate that you feel like this is some kind of unacceptable restriction on what you would prefer, but if you dislike being "forced" to follow ancient practice, then you are not interested in restoring the ancient Respublica but rather one which suits your own personal needs.

What modern governments permit or do not permit of candidates is of little or no interest in this matter and is utterly superfluous to the discussion.

Vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Pauline,
>
> > Yes that is right and they could not stand if this was adopted.
>
> So give me a reason to adopt your proposal.
>
> > But if it is adopted in some form NO current official holder could be a candidate anyway until a year out of office.
>
> So for you a period of candidacy and a period of holding a magistracy are in concurrence. That is not fair. So, for example, a President during his mandate could not be a candidate for a second presidency? Your proposal does not work.
>
> In place to use a winding way, you can propose that after one year of holding a magistracy, the magistrate is forced to have a year off. As during his magistracy he has an immunity, he has to be a single citizen after his year of magistracy to be under the possibility to have lawsuits against him.
>
> An amendment in the law of the Cursus Honorum is enough without repealing laws in force.
>
> > There is also a conflict between the lex that sets December 10th as the day a Tribunes term starts and the constitution that sets a different date for Tribunes to take office.
>
> But December 10th is historical.
>
> Vale.
> C. Petronius Dexter
>

C. Petronius Catoni s.p.d.,

> The ancient ideal was always that magistrates *should* take a year off between holding offices,

But the way to obtain this ideal is very sinuous, tortuous and winding in the propositions of Paulinus. So we agree both on the same subject, except that I am frank and you tortuous as usual.

Vale.
C. Petronius Dexter

Salve Po,
 
"But neither of the above leges take precedence over the constitution, which still says In Section VD:

D. Should a magistrate's office become vacant during the course of his term, the Senate may appoint a replacement to serve out the remainder of the term should there be less than three months remaining therein.

And this clause, naturally trumps any lex on the matter."
 
Your are right the constitution does trump the laws in question and the Senate may appoint new magistrates to fill a vacancy. But  if we were to do that it  would mean we now have to have a Senate meeting before the elections.
 
It has been said that December 10th is historical for the Tribunes to start a term. That fines but
if the constitution states a date and a Lex states a date the date listed in the constitution would be the one we legally  have to obey.
 
The lex in question states the 10th of December. The constitution sets their term to start on January 1st. The constitution has never been amended to change this date.
 
Vale
 
Ti. Galerius Paulinus

 

---

To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
From: scriba_forum@...
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 18:32:29 +0000
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: On the appointment of new election officals

 

Salve Galerius Censor, Salvete Omnes:

I see what you're saying about the Senate meeting. Paraphrased: no Senate session, no opportunity to appoint suffect magistrates.

I never noticed the contradiction between the historically desirable (and practised) date of Dec. 10 for the Tribunes to take office, and the constitionally mandated date of January 1; I probably didn't pay it much mind because it has never been much of an issue, atleast when I was active.

The above said...I concede that the Plebian Assembly (with all due respect) should have their Tribunes begin office Jan. 1. The constitution is the highest law, even if more historically accurate language is desired. So, for the Tribs of NR to take office on any other date, is well.......illegal.

Interesting observation.

Pompeia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Timothy or Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@...> wrote:
>
>
> Salve Po,
>
>
>
> "But neither of the above leges take precedence over the constitution, which still says In Section VD:
>
> D. Should a magistrate's office become vacant during the course of his term, the Senate may appoint a replacement to serve out the remainder of the term should there be less than three months remaining therein.
>
> And this clause, naturally trumps any lex on the matter."
>
>
>
> Your are right the constitution does trump the laws in question and the Senate may appoint new magistrates to fill a vacancy. But if we were to do that it would mean we now have to have a Senate meeting before the elections.
>
>
>
> It has been said that December 10th is historical for the Tribunes to start a term. That fines but
>
> if the constitution states a date and a Lex states a date the date listed in the constitution would be the one we legally have to obey.
>
>
>
> The lex in question states the 10th of December. The constitution sets their term to start on January 1st. The constitution has never been amended to change this date.
>
>
>
> Vale
>
>
>
> Ti. Galerius Paulinus
>
>
>
>
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> From: scriba_forum@...
> Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 18:32:29 +0000
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: On the appointment of new election officals
>
>
>
>
>
> Salve Galerius Censor, Salvete Omnes:
>
> I just caught this post on the list (likely because I saw my name in a law I had promulgated). Just a polite clarification if I may:
>
> There is for sure a difference in the Lex Equitia and Lex Minucia regarding time frames for re-election of magistrates, and I agree that the Lex Minucia, being the more recent lex, takes precedence as per the constitution.
>
> But neither of the above leges take precedence over the constitution, which still says In Section VD:
>
> D. Should a magistrate's office become vacant during the course of his term, the Senate may appoint a replacement to serve out the remainder of the term should there be less than three months remaining therein.
>
> And this clause, naturally trumps any lex on the matter.
>
> I think the above clause is good...for *emergencies*. So I never personally challenged its presence. However,I don't care for a routine appointment of comitia magistrates by the Senate. I suppose another way magistrates could be replaced is by Senatus Consultum Ultimum, but I should think circumstances would have to be pretty grave that an election couldn't first be held for magistrates during the first 7 months of the year, before the Senate appointing them.
>
> Valete
> Pompeia
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Timothy or Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Salve Julia, Who said in part
> >
> > "I should think that asking for diribitors to be appointed would be more constructive than the counterproductive complaining about a resigning diribitor."
> >
> > First an foremost please remember we are talking about an election official resigning just prior to the main legally mandated elections held every fall for over ten years.
> >
> > Second new diribitors must be elected and can not be appointed. So we can not have any "new" diribitors until after these elections.
> >
> > There are two laws that deal with these matters.
> >
> > The first is the Lex Equitia de vigintisexviris which was adopted in 2004. It allowed for the appointment of replacements and if it was the only lex on the books dealing with the issue we would be fine.
> >
> > However in 2006 a new lex the Lex Minucia eiuratione magistratum was adopted which mandates replacements must be elected within 45 days.
> >
> > Under the constitution if two laws are in conflict then the MOST recently adopted one takes precedence
> >
> > I. Constitutional Basis B: Legal precedence
> > Â….."Should a law passed by one of the comitia contradict one passed by another or the same comitia without explicitly superseding that law, the most recent law shall take precedence."
> >
> > So getting replacements for election officials this time of year is not as simple as some would have us believe.
> >
> > Vale
> >
> > Ti. Galerius Paulinus
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > From: dis_pensible@
> > Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 02:06:59 +0000
> > Subject: [Nova-Roma] A solution for Gaulterus
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Salve Gaultere,
> >
> > I understand your dismay at losing a diribitor. I worked with you at the last election as diribitor suffecta and we worked well together – and we worked hard. It was a pleasure working with you and the others – everyone behaved professionally and with honesty.
> > Having been diribitor suffecta I understand your motivation for this verbal discontent – you are now one less and you perceive that your job is going to be harder. This is understandable however, having been diribitor suffecta, I know that other citizens can be appointed to the position relatively easy. In the last election three were and we were all capable and professional.
> >
> > I should think that asking for diribitors to be appointed would be more constructive than the counterproductive complaining about a resigning diribitor.
> >
> > Vale optimé,
> >
> > Julia
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gualterus_graecus" <waltms1@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Salvete,
> > >
> > > And yet he can't do something as simple as hold to his duties as diribitor during the only regular elections of the year, nor did he do anything for the previous suffect elections. Conscientious? Trustworthy? His act of resignation is evidence to the contrary. I wish this were not the case!
> > >
> > > Corvus, I ask you to hold to your duty, do what you were elected to do. Do not act like someone merely interested in collecting official titles. Since you did nothing for the last suffect election at least do your duty for the only regular election of the year!
> > >
> > > Valete,
> > >
> > > Gualterus
> > >
> >
>

Equestria Iunia Laeca candidata praetrix Marca Hortensia Maior
candidata praetrix Quiritibus salutem plurimam dicit

Salvete Quirites!

We stand before you today to present ourselves as a joined candidacy
for the praetura.

I, Equestria Iunia Laeca, reside in Provincia Nova Britannia and have
been a citizen since 2755 auc (2002 CE). Currently, I serve as Nova
Roma's Chief Financial Officer et Curatrix Aerarii, Senatrix, and
Legata Regio Connecticut. I have previously served as Accensa L.
Arminio Ti. Galerio cos; Consularis Quaestrix M. Moravio T. Iulio cos;
Praefectus and Scriba Propraetoris.

I, Marca Hortensia Maior, reside in Provincia Am. Austrorientalis.
Since becoming a citizen in 2756 auc (2003 CE), I have served twice as
scriba Censoris K. Fabius Buteo Quintilianus et K. Fabius Buteo
Modianus, Propraetrix of Hibernia, Tribune, Aedilis Plebis, Quaestrix
P. Memmius Albucius, Lictrix, and currently, as Senatrix. I am also
very active within the Religio Romana, serving in the capacity of both
Sacerdos Mentis and Flaminica Carmentalis.

We have worked harmoniously on many occasions in the past, and have
formed a mutual respect for each other's diligence, legal competency,
and analytical abilities. Individually, we each possess the skills
and experience necessary to perform the requisite duties of the
praetura. However, by making practical use of each other's strengths
and talents, we combine into an even stronger, more efficient and
effective team.

For example, Laeca's quiet tenacity is the balance for Maior's
passionate debates. Laeca's ability as CFO, her righting Nova Roma's
financial accounts, and her defending us against lawsuit threats is
matched by Maior's long and varied experience as a magistrate.

We have long term excellent relationships with K. Fabius Buteo
Quintilianus et P. Memmius Albucius; T. Iulius Sabinus; M. Valeria
Messallina and other distinguished, dedicated citizens including
future Tribunes, M. Moravius Piscinus, C. Curius Saturninus, M.
Octavius Corvus, C. Aquillius Rota and C. Petronius Dexter. This
provides the cooperative teamwork required for a strong unified Nova
Roma that can work effectively and productively without constant
argument. We are preparing plans for a joint shared cohors, as this
makes for efficient and good governance.

The fora will be maintained in a fair and consistent manner so that
they remain civil and friendly places where everyone feels comfortable
to contribute and learn. As the center of our community, the main
forum will not be allowed to degenerate into an unfriendly or even
hostile atmosphere, regardless of the topic being discussed.

We both possess real knowledge of both macro and roman law acquired
not only from our academic and professional lives, but also our
extensive experience working within Nova Roma. We have both gladly
given our time and focused our efforts on preserving and protecting
Nova Roma from external legal challenges, as well as those within the
res publica. We are doers; both in the macro world and in Nova Roma.
Our record for our activity and results speak for themselves.

If elected praetrices, we will perform our duties to the best of our
abilities, both individually and as a team, in service to the citizens
of Nova Roma. We pledge peace, unity and respect; Vote for us; for
Pax in Nova Roma. May Fortuna and the gods favour us; and protect
Nova Roma!

Curate ut valeatis optime!

Salvete Plebii;
I strongly and happily second this endorsement I know how devoted Maxima Valeria Messallina is to res publica. She will be a wonderful tribune of the plebs!
bene valete in pacem deorum
M. Hortensia Maior
candidate for praetor
Flaminica Carmentalis
Senatrix

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Maxima Valeria Messallina <maximavaleriamessallina@...> wrote:
>
>
> Wow! Not much I can add or say to that except thank you very much for your kind words and endorsement. I will do my very best to continue to serve our beloved Res publica.
>
> Vale bene in pace Deorum,
>
> Maxima Valeria Messallina
> Sacerdos Vestalis
>
>
> --- On Wed, 11/4/09, C.Maria Caeca <c.mariacaeca@...> wrote:
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> I stand before you to endorse Maxima Valeria Messalina's candidacy for
> Tribune of the Plebs. I have given this considerable thought, because she
> is also our Virgo Maxima, and I felt it necessary to determine, in my own
> mind, whether there would be any conflict of interest, or whether, indeed,
> her participation in public life of this sort would be appropriate. I am no
> expert, of course, but I do remember in my albeit meager historical reading,
> that, unless forbidden by the structures of their priesthoods, Roman priests
> often occupied both priestly offices and civil, political offices. The
> Vestals also participated, somewhat, if only by their presence, in the
> public life of Republican Rome, although their duties were confined to the
> Temple of Vesta and to the keeping of, and safeguarding of, the wills of
> Roman citizens. Since women played no part in the civil public life of Roma
> Antiqua, I came to the conclusion that, like other religious officials,
> there would be no conflict should the Virgo maxima also serve as a Tribune,
> and that, in the unlikely case an issue should arise that might cause such a
> conflict, Maxima Valeria Messalina would recuse herself from speaking to
> that issue, as I have observed her to be a woman of thoughtfulness and
> honor. Since our Vestals don't keep our wills, she has no specific
> confidential knowledge about any of us that could affect her determinations,
> either, so I see no problem there.
>
> I have had the pleasure of observing Maxima Valeria Messalina since I first
> joined this organization, and I have always admired and liked what I saw of
> her public conduct. In short, I think she will bring wisdom, impartiality
> and dedication to this, or any position she holds in NR, and I will most
> certainly give her my vote. I urge you, good citizens, to do the same.
>
> Respectfully,
> C. Maria Caeca
>

Salvete Romans,
 
My friend Equestria Iunia Laeca has said in part
 
"We have long term excellent relationships with K. Fabius Buteo
Quintilianus et P. Memmius Albucius; T. Iulius Sabinus; M. Valeria
Messallina ...
 
I am sure that if the electorate elects me as Consul Equestria Iunia Laeca and I will continue our most excellent relationship.
 
"and other distinguished, dedicated citizens including
future Tribunes, M. Moravius Piscinus, C. Curius Saturninus, M.
Octavius Corvus, C. Aquillius Rota and C. Petronius Dexter.
This provides the cooperative teamwork required for a strong unified Nova
Roma that can work effectively and productively without constant
argument."
 
While I respect my friend Equestria Iunia Laeca,  as a patrician she makes the mistake of viewing Triunes as part of a "working" government". The are not.  They are or should be the "anti-magistrate" making sure that the rights of Romans are respected and that elected officials stay within the confines of the LAW. If the Tribunes are part of this working government then they do not know their role.
 
Another term for  "cooperative teamwork" could be "one party state".
 
No matter who you cast you vote for this year having a diversity of elected officials is better for the survival and growth of Nova Roma than a "one party state".
 
Vale
 
Ti. Galerius Paulinus
Candidate for Consul
 
 

---

To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
From: deandreaboyle@...
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 20:12:18 -0500
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Candidacy for Praetrices

 

 
 A. Tullia Scholastica P. Memmio Albucio Cn. Cornelio Lentulo quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
   

Lentulo Scholasticae Dextro amicis omnibusque s.d.

> And to me they are also beautiful :)
> Sed de gustibus...

Yes, here, as Scholastica has noticed it, it is a "matter of tastes and colors": it depends on our individual or cultural preferences.

    ATS:  There is not much agreement on what constitutes ugly, etc.  

This is like teens in internet clans who write their names in a strange way with [[@_ etc. : they find them beautiful... and why not?

    ATS:  Teens like to change their names around, and have done so long before the internet.  

>length markers are the best thing in Latin (..)Without them, it is >extremely hard to learn the Classical pronunciation, it's almost >impossible.

Yes, why not, as long as these marks are kept in the/our school books, which help us lerning Latin. I suppose our ancestors might have acted the same way with children at school. When small Tullilus became Cicero, he has well learnt enough not to use the apices any longer.

    ATS:  Possibly Tullius Cicero Junior never needed them...but we see them on the Vindolanda tablets, presumably written by adults, to adults.

So as long as such marks will *help* people in learning Latin, they will be positive, as you Lentule well translate it with Livia's book case.

From the moment they will let people believe that written Latin would use stress marks, such a tool could lead to a not wished effect: making us believe that Latins stressed their writings, what they did not.

    ATS:  The apex is not a stress mark, but one indicating vowel length.  In those elementary Latin texts which use the macron to indicate vowel length (the overwhelming majority of those with which I am familiar), the acute accent (which the apex resembles) is used to indicate stress, though in Latin the stressed syllable is (as you know) quite predictable.  The Romans did stress their words, whereas the French seem to prefer doing without this linguistic feature.  

Once we are therefore cautious enough to separate both fields (our learning on one hand and our writing on the other), apices are welcome if they cannot help more people to come to Latin, which is our common aim! :-)

    ATS:  Mihi quidem, haec sententia haud clara est.  We are indeed trying to bring more people to Latin; I had about 60 students at the beginning of the year, but as always, we lose some to the difficulties of meshing the real world with the virtual classroom.  

Valete bene omnes,

P. Memmius Albucius
pr., cand. Consul

Vale, et valete.



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com> , "Cn. Cornelius Lentulus" <cn_corn_lent@...> wrote:
>
> Lentulus Petronio tribuni plebis candidato et Memmio consuli candidato sal.
>
>
> On the contrary, I think length markers are the best thing in Latin orthography we can do with it! Without them, it is extremely hard to learn the Classical pronunciation, it's almost impossible.
>
> And to me they are also beautiful :)
>
> Sed dé gustibus...
>
> This entire thread is so auspicious as I have been at Livia's and I was inserting apices into his Latin book with a pencil because it didn't have them, and Livia asked to me sign all vowel length in her book. She wants to learn correct Classical pronounciation.
>
> I am on the firm opinion that a future Latin world language in its orthography must always mark vowel length.
>
>
> Valéte optimé, amÖcÖ!
>
>
>
> --- Ven 6/11/09, publiusalbucius <albucius_aoe@...> ha scritto:
>
> Da: publiusalbucius <albucius_aoe@...>
> Oggetto: [Nova-Roma] Apices and stress marks on our written Latin
> A: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>
> Data: Venerdì 6 novembre 2009, 23:38
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  
>
>       
>       Dextro Aquilaeque s.d.
>
>
>
> Excellent message, Dexter, for you well explain, for pedagogical and supported by ancient sources themselves.
>
>
>
> In fact, it seems that apices/stress marks have been used since last fifteen years by some Latin teachers or scholars. I know some British ones used them ; maybe in other countries?
>
>
>
> But it seems that the interesting tool that can be stress marks on letters to bring beginners to understand that Latin is - also - an accentuated language have been extended unusefully to written Latin. Here is one typical phenomenon: a tool brings a good thing but in a second phase, the mis-use or abuse of this tool create a worse situation.
>
>
>
> Such reminders as yours are useful.
>
>
>
> Valete,
>
>
>
> P. Memmius Albucius
>
> pr. cand. consul
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, "luciaiuliaaquila" <dis_pensible@ ...> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Ave Petroni,
>
> >
>
> > Ok now you have made me moan and groan because I was just getting the hang of the apices and now I find out they are not classic in the sense I am using them.
>
> > Ok â•" you're right. I looked in one of the few Loeb Classical Library copies I have â•" not that I doubt you;)
>
> >
>
> > I will leave the apices to the Flamines then, it makes my education, such as it is, a bit easier.
>
> >
>
> > *laughs* I really was liking them though, they were like a new toy â•"
>
> >
>
> > Bene vale,
>
> >
>
> > Julia
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@ > wrote:
>
> > >
>
> > > C. Petronius L. Juliae s.p.d.,
>
> > >
>
> > > > As for aspices - I cannot create aspices on yahoo (even in rich text),nor can I through hotmail.
>
> > >
>
> > > Nobody used apices in writing Latin. These signs are not beautiful nor useful and absolutely not Roman. For example, amica Julia, have a look on the Loeb Classical Library Latin/English books. In France too, in the venerable edition of Les Belles Lettres nobody uses these apices.
>
> > > Quintilianus himself the great Latin grammarian is against this "Greek" custom, see his phrase "longis syllabis omnibus adponere apicem ineptissimum est" (I,7,2). He allows the apex only to avoid the confusion inter two words written in the same way but different in their meanings and in the quantity of their vocal. For example between malus (bad) with a short "a" and málus(apple tree) with a long "a" and to differentiate between the nominative -a and the ablative -á. He thinks and I agree with him that except these cases it is very inane (ineptissimum) to mark with an apex every long vocals. And it is not beautiful.
>
> > >
>
> > > I have under my hand a copy of a very old manuscript (4th century!) of the Georgicon of Vergil without one aspex. On the graffiti of Pompeii too you do not have one apex... those apices are the worst thing that we can offer to the Latin.
>
> > >
>
> > > Let us, please, the apices to the Flamines. ;o)
>
> > >
>
> > > Vale.
>
> > > C. Petronius Dexter
>

 
 A. Tullia Scholastica C. Petronio Dextro L. Juliae Aquilae quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
   

C. Petronius L. Juliae s.p.d.,
 
> Ok now you have made me moan and groan because I was just getting the hang of the apices and now I find out they are not classic in the sense I am using them.

If you want to have a speech, id est speak Latin, and if you do not know where are the long vowels, you can use this system of apices. Of course. But, in fact the problem, is rather to mark the syllab of the word with the accent.

    ATS:  Well, the apices help there, too, but Latin stress accentuation is predictable nearly 100% of the time:  on the penult if it is long, and on the antepenult if the penult is short.  


When you read Latin poems, if you know the versus system, for example the Dactylic Hexameters, quicly you will read without the help of the notations of the short and long vowels.

    ATS:  Perhaps, but when I teach metrics at the end of Grammatica II, the students find the subject quite difficult, and when I ask them to scan a few lines on their final examination, it is quite clear that the instruction has not penetrated all of the brains.  To me, hexameters and elegiacs are not difficult to scan, but to the students...

For example, I never used the apices help and I wrote many classical poems with the scansion of the short and long vowels. So I am the living proof that the apices are not necessary to know where are the long and the short vowels. It is enough to learn etymology and the endings of the declensions and conjugations.

    ATS:  Learning etymology and the quantities of the morphological endings does help a lot.  However, we English speakers at least need some assistance.  Knowing the length of a Germanic vowel isn’t quite as helpful as knowing that of a French/Spanish/Italian one when trying to learn those of Latin.  

It is more interesting to learn the length of the vowels than to make ugly the Latin writing.

    ATS:  I endorse learning vowel length, but don’t see how you can call apices ugly.  

I wonder if you are happy if, as no native English speaker, I force you to mark with apices in English the long vowels and with an another sign the mark where is the accent of the word as it is written in my dictionary.

    ATS:  That would be truly difficult, as the apex is physically the same as the stress accent mark.  It just has a different function.  

When I read the English word "forbidding" I do not know, by none sign, where the word has his accent. And English is a spoken language, so this sign should be very important for me. As French, with my native custom to stress words, I should think that the accent is in -ing. So in French fashion the word is said forbiddíng. But, nobody is perfect, my dictionary shows me that the accent is on the first syllab, fórbidding. It is impossible for me to know that without the sign in my dictionary.

    ATS:  Actually, it’s on the second syllable, for-BID-ing.  The root is bid, and gets the stress.  Many English words are stressed on the final syllable, but when one of the huge ;-) array of English grammatical terminations is added, things change.  Maybe the habit of stressing the final syllable came from French...   ;-)

So, before spoiling the written Latin, which is a language less used than English, I suggest English people to change their writing fashion in stressing their words with a sign, for the long vowels it will be a second step.

    ATS:  Last I heard, most English long vowels were actually diphthongs.  

> Ok ˆ you're right. I looked in one of the few Loeb Classical Library copies I have ˆ not that I doubt you;)

Yes, this edition is serious. ;o)

    ATS:  It’s serious, all right, though perhaps not as much so as the OCTs...

> *laughs* I really was liking them though, they were like a new toy ˆ

I prefer the sign used on some poetical treatises to significate the short and long vowels and we find them too in some dictionaries. Those signs are less agressive than the apex.

    ATS:  Do you mean macrons?  They resemble a dash, but are over the vowel.  They may be less aggressive (I can’t imagine how you came up with this description), but they are also less accurate for marking vowel length.  You might profit from a good chat with Avitus.  

    Why is it that my French student and you of the hexagon (as Albucius tells me you call your country) have such a problem with apices?  Admittedly, not even Avitus uses them all the time, but they are essential for spoken Latin, and for learners.  

Prospere vale.

    Et tu!

C. Petronius Dexter

A. Tullia Scholastica

 
   

Cato Petronio Dextero sal.

Salve.

No. I have already suggested a lex that covers this quite simply, and did so here, in the Senate, and on the Law Review List:

"One of the easiest ways is simply to say that anyone who serves as a magistrate must wait 12 calendar months before assuming another elected office. It's an ancient Roman idea, and it would work. Add a rider that the Senate may waive this on a case-by-case, individual basis by a vote of 75%, just in case, sort of like the age thing but stricter.

I'd like to stress the idea that simplicity is often the best way to approach anything;"

I am amazed at the hoops you will jump through simply to try to paint an unflattering - and untruthful - picture of me. You are not "frank"; you are quite simply acting in an purposefully obnoxious, unnecessarily adversarial manner.

Vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@...> wrote:
>
> C. Petronius Catoni s.p.d.,
>
> > The ancient ideal was always that magistrates *should* take a year off between holding offices,
>
> But the way to obtain this ideal is very sinuous, tortuous and winding in the propositions of Paulinus. So we agree both on the same subject, except that I am frank and you tortuous as usual.
>
> Vale.
> C. Petronius Dexter
>

 Well, now that the issue of website errors has been addressed in message 71682, this might be a good time to discuss an issue that I've had some time to check out in detail:
 

 To begin, a techical  erratum in the text of a law, although naturally important, still seems rather minor compared to how the legislation promulgated by myself and Piscinus 2006 (then Tribune)  was seemingly *doctored* up at some point, to it's current presentation in the Tabularium (laws section).  It is difficult for me to dismiss this total rewrite as an error of fatique or technical glitch.
 

Please let me explain the history/details, given that there have been posts on this legislation.

In  2006 as Consul I  promulgated two separate legislations, (not one) as presented on the website, on magisterial resignations with then Tribunis Plebis Marcus Moravius Piscinus Horatianus.  One was pertaining to the comitia centuriata magistrates and the other for the comitia populi tributa and comitia plebis tributa .I did not as Consul view it as legal or proper to promulgate legislation pertaining to the internal affairs of the plebian assembly without a tribune, hence the names of the leges 'minucia moravia'.( I remind the quirites, relevant to this,  that the constitution states that each comitia has leave to run its own internal affairs, and this consular believes that this includes magisterial resignation as well as election).
 
Here is the final wording of each lex in question (from the NR announce list) in the election announcement posts for the respective comitia calls:
 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NovaRoma-Announce/message/889
 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NovaRoma-Announce/message/890
 
To continue....
 
The lex for the Comitia Centuriata didn't pass...missed  by one century, as per the announcement of the results:
 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NovaRoma-Announce/message/901
 
 
Quirites:
 
 
Here is how the *combined* legislations  currently present on our website:
 
 http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Lex_Minucia_eiuratione_magistratum_%28Nova_Roma%29
 
 
i...can  it be explained why the name change of the legislation promulgants from Minucia Moravia to just Minucia?
 
ii...can the fact that this legally amorphous text as written above includes the adoption of this legislation into the Comitia Centuriata when it fact did not pass this comitia, as a matter of record?
 
iii..can it be explained why legislation that did pass wasn't entered onto our website using the verbage the people adopted as law?

 iv...if there was doubt on the proper means of publication or nomenclature, why weren't the promulgants(in this case myself and Piscinus) consulted?
 
Quirites Novae Romae, It is difficult for me to give the benefit of the doubt that this was a happenstance error; this was purposely rewritten, and the literature present in the wikipedia is not at all aligned with the wishes of the people when they visited the cista in May 2006. What the motivation was, I cannot be sure..it is very much beside the point in my view.
 
***optional reading :>)***
 
The only reason I promulgated this stuff is that there was a flurry of resignations from 2004-2005, and the prevailing legislation was very ambiguous, due to clauses being repealed, amendments, etc.  I wanted to put an end to the fighting.
 
I don't care if any magistrate wishes to repeal this legislation as it presents in the wikipedia law section (formerly known as the Tabularium)...As they say, 'have atter!'...but what you see on our website, is a longshot from being what was passed by the people. And I'd have to see a pretty solid argument before I dismiss this as an error of fatique on the part of the webstaff, or a technical erratia. In short, I am not responsible for the rubbish currently presented in the Tabularium.
 
Anyway....for those who want revisions to laws:
 
Why bother with more laws if they are not going to be honoured, but rather, *doctored up* ad hoc by anyone with authority to edit the website. We are not talking dotted *i's* and crossed *t's* in the above revisions...the entire legal parameter of the lex itself was changed.
 
At one point, the Tabularium was under the protection of the Praetores, and no changes were to be made which were not authorized by the Praetura.....what happened?
 
And I must ask myself..if the Tabularium is so easily accessed and revised, have other legislations potentially being changed under our noses?
 
I am sure I'll be raked over the coals for creating a 'conspiracy theory' and we can not worry about it, and if it has descended to the point where nobody is worried about it, we are indeed in a serious state of affairs.
 

 
 

Pompeia Minucia Strabo Laecae Iuniae Equaestriae Quiritibus S.P.D.

I have absolutely no doubt, Iunia, that you are capable of being an excellent Praetor. Upon appraisal of the Praetoral candidates, I shall vote for Gn Iulius Caesar and yourself. Despite having been on opposite sides of the fence from him at times, I actually agree more often than not on Caesar's analysis of legal dynamics..I base this mostly on recent legal rulings and law promulgations. He has the asset of common sense, which, and not to be confrontational, seemingly gets lost in the shuffle of things. He will be a much needed legal check and balance for NR, I think.

Of the four candidates, Caesar and yourself are the best option.

I have one curiosity if I may: may I ask why this particular paragraph of your introduction of candidacy (from below) is written in the third person? Although I think it very natural to give examples on how you would temper a rather passionate running mate ( I think you need them in this case), I don't often read them as though they are written by someone else.



**For example, Laeca's quiet tenacity is the balance for Maior's
passionate debates. Laeca's ability as CFO, her righting Nova Roma's
financial accounts, and her defending us against lawsuit threats is
matched by Maior's long and varied experience as a magistrate***.

Valete
Pompeia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Deandrea Boyle <deandreaboyle@...> wrote:
>
> Equestria Iunia Laeca candidata praetrix Marca Hortensia Maior
> candidata praetrix Quiritibus salutem plurimam dicit
>
> Salvete Quirites!
>
> We stand before you today to present ourselves as a joined candidacy
> for the praetura.
>
> I, Equestria Iunia Laeca, reside in Provincia Nova Britannia and have
> been a citizen since 2755 auc (2002 CE). Currently, I serve as Nova
> Roma's Chief Financial Officer et Curatrix Aerarii, Senatrix, and
> Legata Regio Connecticut. I have previously served as Accensa L.
> Arminio Ti. Galerio cos; Consularis Quaestrix M. Moravio T. Iulio cos;
> Praefectus and Scriba Propraetoris.
>
> I, Marca Hortensia Maior, reside in Provincia Am. Austrorientalis.
> Since becoming a citizen in 2756 auc (2003 CE), I have served twice as
> scriba Censoris K. Fabius Buteo Quintilianus et K. Fabius Buteo
> Modianus, Propraetrix of Hibernia, Tribune, Aedilis Plebis, Quaestrix
> P. Memmius Albucius, Lictrix, and currently, as Senatrix. I am also
> very active within the Religio Romana, serving in the capacity of both
> Sacerdos Mentis and Flaminica Carmentalis.
>
> We have worked harmoniously on many occasions in the past, and have
> formed a mutual respect for each other's diligence, legal competency,
> and analytical abilities. Individually, we each possess the skills
> and experience necessary to perform the requisite duties of the
> praetura. However, by making practical use of each other's strengths
> and talents, we combine into an even stronger, more efficient and
> effective team.
>
> For example, Laeca's quiet tenacity is the balance for Maior's
> passionate debates. Laeca's ability as CFO, her righting Nova Roma's
> financial accounts, and her defending us against lawsuit threats is
> matched by Maior's long and varied experience as a magistrate.
>
> We have long term excellent relationships with K. Fabius Buteo
> Quintilianus et P. Memmius Albucius; T. Iulius Sabinus; M. Valeria
> Messallina and other distinguished, dedicated citizens including
> future Tribunes, M. Moravius Piscinus, C. Curius Saturninus, M.
> Octavius Corvus, C. Aquillius Rota and C. Petronius Dexter. This
> provides the cooperative teamwork required for a strong unified Nova
> Roma that can work effectively and productively without constant
> argument. We are preparing plans for a joint shared cohors, as this
> makes for efficient and good governance.
>
> The fora will be maintained in a fair and consistent manner so that
> they remain civil and friendly places where everyone feels comfortable
> to contribute and learn. As the center of our community, the main
> forum will not be allowed to degenerate into an unfriendly or even
> hostile atmosphere, regardless of the topic being discussed.
>
> We both possess real knowledge of both macro and roman law acquired
> not only from our academic and professional lives, but also our
> extensive experience working within Nova Roma. We have both gladly
> given our time and focused our efforts on preserving and protecting
> Nova Roma from external legal challenges, as well as those within the
> res publica. We are doers; both in the macro world and in Nova Roma.
> Our record for our activity and results speak for themselves.
>
> If elected praetrices, we will perform our duties to the best of our
> abilities, both individually and as a team, in service to the citizens
> of Nova Roma. We pledge peace, unity and respect; Vote for us; for
> Pax in Nova Roma. May Fortuna and the gods favour us; and protect
> Nova Roma!
>
> Curate ut valeatis optime!
>

Maior Quiritibus spd;
I had this fabulous link from my Latin speakers Circle.
http://www.uky.edu/AS/Classics/aestivumeng.html
It is for the Summer Latin Conventiculum in Kentucky. Registration is just $90 U.S. and you can stay in the student dormitories for $25 per day. This is just dead cheap. I'm going! in fact we're going to carpool so its even a better deal.
Omnes, find a friend and go! This is just what Nova Roma needs. I've spoken with Marcellus (a graduate student in Classics at Duke University) and he speaks Latin so easily and naturally. I envy him
Everybody come, especially our cives in Europe as the euro will make this even cheaper:) I'll act as your American guide and make sure you get good barbeque.
optime valete!
Maior



http://www.uky.edu/AS/Classics/aestivumeng.html

 
 A. Tullia Scholastica M. Hortensiae Majori quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
   

Maior Quiritibus spd;
 I had this fabulous link from my Latin speakers Circle.
http://www.uky.edu/AS/Classics/aestivumeng.html
 It is for the Summer Latin Conventiculum in Kentucky. Registration is just $90 U.S. and you can stay in the student dormitories for $25 per day. This is just dead cheap. I'm going! in fact we're going to carpool so its even a better deal.
 Omnes, find a friend and go! This is just what Nova Roma needs. I've spoken with Marcellus (a graduate student in Classics at Duke University) and he speaks Latin so easily and naturally. I envy him
 Everybody come, especially our cives in Europe as the euro will make this even cheaper:)

    ATS:  I heartily endorse participation in the various Latin conventicula, but must point out that these are Latin immersion sessions and require a decent background in Latin before attending.  We used to require two years of Latin before being allowed to attend our living Latin course (yes, we have one, based on attendance at one of the many conventicula), and I doubt that that requirement has changed. One must complete Sermo II or Sermo combined (I&II) or Grammatica II in order to register for this course and obtain whatever credit is attached.  When I attended the one in Seattle a couple of years ago, we had some rank beginners who really did not profit from the experience as they did not understand enough Latin.  Too, the conventiculum in Lexington (steambath) Kentucky with Terentius is not the only such event, even in the US:  there is the one with Stephen Berard in western Washington State (Seattle or Wenatchee; it varies), there is one in Virginia, which has separate sessions for beginners and more advanced students, reportedly there is something in California, and there are many in Europe.  Last year the famous Academia Latinitatis Fovendae held its meeting in Ratisbona (Regensburg), and has done so in other European locations, plus there are many of these conventicula and rusticationes throughout Europe.  The authority on that is Avitus, but even I know a bit about the European ones.  


 I'll act as your American guide and make sure you get good barbeque.

    ATS:  Some of these sessions have Roman cookery instruction [?] as a side benefit.  Lexington and Seattle are not among them, but I think that one in Virginia and one in California do, as well as at least one in Europe.  They definitely have Roman food available, though I am not sure whether they provide instruction in cookery as well.  

    Air fare from Europe to the US is probably as steep as it is from the US to Europe, so it might be easier to stick closer to home, especially in these days of recession.  

 optime valete!
 Maior

Optime valete.

http://www.uky.edu/AS/Classics/aestivumeng.html

 
   

C. Petronius Catoni s.p.d.,

> Cato Petronio Dextero sal.
> Salve.

Sal. (salutem) et salve are redundant, you have to choose between these two greetings...

> I am amazed at the hoops you will jump through simply to try to paint an unflattering - and untruthful - picture of me.

You are your worst enemy and the painting that you make of yourself is a great chef-d'oeuvre.

> You are not "frank"; you are quite simply acting in an purposefully obnoxious, unnecessarily adversarial manner.

Your paranoia is very interesting. Peace. You are not my adversary because I do not stand for consul.

Vale.
C. Petronius Dexter

Salve Caeca;
just for you here is your news in Latin f: Nuntii Latini
http://www.yleradio1.fi/nuntii/
brought to you by the great Latin-speaking Finns (who have wonderful accents) This will help a lot. I attend a Latin circle and just listening improves your understanding. In the class I'm auditing we read from Caesars De Bello Gallico and unlike the students I can pretty much look at the Latin text and read it.
optime vale
Maior

--- I loved, for example to listen to news broadcasts both on French and German stations, not because I could understand everything being said ...I emphatically couldn't, but to familiarize myself with things like language flow, rhythm, the ways in which words were stressed, and yes, at least with words I *did* understand, pronunciation. Such passive listening was incredibly helpful to me, and, according to my instructors, at the time, my pronunciation was pretty good. I've gotten very rusty since, of course ...but that is a function of lack of practice and age. My point is that, while we *can* listen to spoken modern languages, it is difficult to listen to much in the way of spoken Latin, and even harder to identify and find Latin spoken accurately, according to the latest in linguistic studies. There are some examples, including those provided by our own Latinists, but they are relatively few and don't give what I might call a "spontaneous dialog" that is, a flow of speech that isn't previously prepared and read (assumedly with previous practice.) True, the news casts to which I listened were also pre-prepared, but often the commentary and the interviews were not, so I got to hear the language as spoken. naturally, the *real* joy cam when I physically visited France and Germany. I would sit in public places, just ...listening, not trying to translate, just absorbing the language. OK, let me stop here before I get all poetical. Now ...to apices. Because of the lack of spoken examplers, if we ever want to become proficient in spoken Latin, and if we want that spoken to ever become Lingua Franca (sp?), one of the things that will become important will be to standardize, in some way, the way in which words are pronounced. Of course, there will always be differences, caused by the native language of the speaker, and perhaps by how the speaker was originally taught, but, eventually, I think it will be possible to recreate a spoken language that is both modern and functional, by which people who share no other language can communicate freely and meaningfully, *and* have it reflect accurately, if not exactly replicate, classical Latin.

>
> Of course, I am nothing but a beginning student, and pretend to nothing else, but even beginning students can dream!
>
> Respectfully,
> C. Maria Caeca
>

C. Petronius Iuniæ Læcæ et M. Hortensiæ s.p.d.,

You have my full endorsement and I urge citizens to vote for you, because I trust in your feminine and fabulous tandem.

Optime valete.

C. Petronius Dexter
Flamen Portunalis
Tribunus Plebis candidatus.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Deandrea Boyle <deandreaboyle@...> wrote:
>
> Equestria Iunia Laeca candidata praetrix Marca Hortensia Maior
> candidata praetrix Quiritibus salutem plurimam dicit
>
> Salvete Quirites!
>
> We stand before you today to present ourselves as a joined candidacy
> for the praetura.
>
> I, Equestria Iunia Laeca, reside in Provincia Nova Britannia and have
> been a citizen since 2755 auc (2002 CE). Currently, I serve as Nova
> Roma's Chief Financial Officer et Curatrix Aerarii, Senatrix, and
> Legata Regio Connecticut. I have previously served as Accensa L.
> Arminio Ti. Galerio cos; Consularis Quaestrix M. Moravio T. Iulio cos;
> Praefectus and Scriba Propraetoris.
>
> I, Marca Hortensia Maior, reside in Provincia Am. Austrorientalis.
> Since becoming a citizen in 2756 auc (2003 CE), I have served twice as
> scriba Censoris K. Fabius Buteo Quintilianus et K. Fabius Buteo
> Modianus, Propraetrix of Hibernia, Tribune, Aedilis Plebis, Quaestrix
> P. Memmius Albucius, Lictrix, and currently, as Senatrix. I am also
> very active within the Religio Romana, serving in the capacity of both
> Sacerdos Mentis and Flaminica Carmentalis.
>
> We have worked harmoniously on many occasions in the past, and have
> formed a mutual respect for each other's diligence, legal competency,
> and analytical abilities. Individually, we each possess the skills
> and experience necessary to perform the requisite duties of the
> praetura. However, by making practical use of each other's strengths
> and talents, we combine into an even stronger, more efficient and
> effective team.
>
> For example, Laeca's quiet tenacity is the balance for Maior's
> passionate debates. Laeca's ability as CFO, her righting Nova Roma's
> financial accounts, and her defending us against lawsuit threats is
> matched by Maior's long and varied experience as a magistrate.
>
> We have long term excellent relationships with K. Fabius Buteo
> Quintilianus et P. Memmius Albucius; T. Iulius Sabinus; M. Valeria
> Messallina and other distinguished, dedicated citizens including
> future Tribunes, M. Moravius Piscinus, C. Curius Saturninus, M.
> Octavius Corvus, C. Aquillius Rota and C. Petronius Dexter. This
> provides the cooperative teamwork required for a strong unified Nova
> Roma that can work effectively and productively without constant
> argument. We are preparing plans for a joint shared cohors, as this
> makes for efficient and good governance.
>
> The fora will be maintained in a fair and consistent manner so that
> they remain civil and friendly places where everyone feels comfortable
> to contribute and learn. As the center of our community, the main
> forum will not be allowed to degenerate into an unfriendly or even
> hostile atmosphere, regardless of the topic being discussed.
>
> We both possess real knowledge of both macro and roman law acquired
> not only from our academic and professional lives, but also our
> extensive experience working within Nova Roma. We have both gladly
> given our time and focused our efforts on preserving and protecting
> Nova Roma from external legal challenges, as well as those within the
> res publica. We are doers; both in the macro world and in Nova Roma.
> Our record for our activity and results speak for themselves.
>
> If elected praetrices, we will perform our duties to the best of our
> abilities, both individually and as a team, in service to the citizens
> of Nova Roma. We pledge peace, unity and respect; Vote for us; for
> Pax in Nova Roma. May Fortuna and the gods favour us; and protect
> Nova Roma!
>
> Curate ut valeatis optime!
>

 

Po Minucia Strabo Praetoribus Quiritibus Sal

 

Here is something else, which I guess I shall first address to the Praetores, then who is responsible for altering legislation inappropriately for website publication....

 

It is regarding what is listed as the Lex Apula Poplillia de nominibus approbationaibusque (Nova Roma)

 

I.  It is listed as having been passed in the year of Modianus' and my consulship in 2006...in fact it was not, but rather passed by the people via comitia populi tributa during the consulship of Apulus Caesar and Popillius Laenus in 2005.

 

II.  More importantly...it  is incorrectly named on the website.  Caesar and Laenus, in keeping with longstanding Nova Roma tradition, promulgated the legislation under the Censor who wrote it, Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintillianus.  When Consuls name the legislation in a certain fashion and it passes the people by that name, then this is what should be entered in the tabularium...it should not be altered, unless it goes back to the people for revision. The website cannot be whimsically altered to entertain another name...for any reason.  If I promulgated a legislation in NR, as the Lex Elmer Fudd, and barring any intercessio, it was voted as such by the people, it should be entered into the Tabularium as such. If it is desirable to Latinize the name by entitling 'Elmerus Fuddus', that is fine, but that's the extent of authority the editors/nomenclators have, if I understand things correctly...and I think I do...

 

Here are the links affirming the name of the lex as promulgated by the Consuls of 2005

 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NovaRoma-Announce/message765

 

Here it is passed by the people as announced in the results:

 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NovaRoma-Announce/message784

 

A small quibble:  The consuls renamed the legislation as Fabia Butona in announcing the voting results (Fabius had changed his name to Fabius Buteo); but since the law was originally promulgated as the Lex Fabia, and that is what the people vote adopted, the published law should read as such.

 

I don't know who felt a great need to change it..are people doing this transcription by memory or are they relying on archives to ensure accuracy in entering data onto our website? There has never been a legal mandate for the consuls to name the legislation after themselves, and this has been observed throughout the years with the Consuls naming laws after the Censors, if the Censors have written the law up to address Censoral issues.

 

I respectfully ask you to please ensure that the title of the lex is corrected, as well as the year, and under whose consulships this lex was promulgated.

 
 
   A. Tullia Scholastica L. Liviae Plautae C. Petronio Dextro quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque bonae voluntatis S.P.D.

L. Livia C. Petronio sal.

The most known method of "living Latin", Oerberg's "Lingua latina per se illustrata" marks vowel lenght, and so do all textbooks in Hungary, Germany, and probably a lot of other countries.
They do so with macrons, rather than apices, because this is the convention, however since macrons are used to mark syllable lenght Avitus suggests apices to mark vowel lenght instead, and this is a rational suggestion, considering that the ancients never used macrons (but apices), and that in a modern computer it's much easier to use apices than macrons.

    ATS:  Exactly on all points.  It has long been the practice to use the macron to indicate Latin vowel length, particularly in secondary-school texts, even in the days of typewriters, when it was difficult to insert any diacritics.  However, although computers and word processors make it much easier to obtain diacritics, the net is less gracious, and mutilates them.  Simply omitting them would be too difficult for a machine.  Paradoxically, the problem is much worse with macrons, that old standby, than it is with the apex...and the latter is authentically Roman, whereas the former is not.  


 (This independently fron the fact that it seems impossible for me to get apices through Yahoo's system).

    ATS:  Yahoo seems to have an extra cybernetic chromosome somewhere.  It JUST can’t cope with these things.  

Actually a lot is known about the pronounciation of classical Latin, probably more than about the pronounciation of French in the XII century.

    ATS:  Indeed, we know a great deal about the pronunciation of Latin, and even of Greek.  

One thing is sure, that long vowels were pronounced long, but we have precise information about the quality of vowels and consonants too.

    ATS:  Yes, and what may be misleading to some about Avitus’ video, for example, is that he uses synaloepha, that is, the final vowel is combined with the initial vowel of the next word, even when the final vowel is followed by m (caduca), which is not pronounced as a full consonant in classical Latin.  It merely nasalized the preceding vowel, as in French.  These mingled vowels will appear to be long, though the individual components may be short.  

By the time of Augustinus, of course, the pronounciation had changed a lot, and vocalic length no longer counted. But I don't need to learn the pronounciation of Augustinus' times, because that's the one I used at school.

    ATS:  Indeed.  

That apices are ugly is a weird opinion.

    ATS:  Assentior.  I can’t imagine where this came from.  Is French ugly because it uses three accents and a diacritic beneath the line, and marks so-called aspirated h with asterisks in the dictionaries?  Is French uglier without the diacritics, or prettier?  It would then look much like modern Greek, which has shed two of its three accents, its aspiration marks, and its single diacritic below the line.  To me, it looks naked.  Is Hebrew better, or prettier, without vowel points?  

Of course they are used in Italian (they are just called accents and used to mark syllabic stress), as they are in French. But if you really want to see a lot of apices look at this: www.index.hu or at any other text in Hungarian! In Hungarian, like in Czech and Slovakian, they are used to mark vowel lenght.

    ATS:  And then there is the hacek, which I cannot produce, and the cedilla-like thingie beneath certain vowels...and the bar through the l in Polish...etc., etc.  These diacritics all have a purpose, and it is to make the languages in question easier to read.  BTW, Plauta et al., the macron can be obtained easily by switching to the Maori keyboard; just use alt+the vowel to be marked.  Not sure if PCs can do that, however.  

Optime vale,
Livia

Optime vale et valete.  

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com> , "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@...> wrote:
>
> C. Petronius L. Plautae sal.,
>
> > And to all the French speakers:
> > if you don't want to use the restituta it's your choice.
>
> The use of aspices is not the restituta way. Give-me one Latin modern method with the apices, even an Italian or English edition. It is not a "French" problem.
>
> > The restituta, meant as a reconstuction of the actual classical pronounciation requires you to pronounce vowel lenghts. A pronounciation with incorrect vowel lenghts would have earned you a lot of laughter in classical times.
>
> The classical using of the lenght of vowel is not known for sure, and even an author as Augustinus professed that in his time (IVth century) this difference was not yet known. Even the poets of the late Antiquity were not able to compose classical verses.
>
> Nobody knows how those vowels were pronounced.
>  
> > I know learning vowel lengths takes a lot of effort from those of us who learned Latin without them: that's why I'm taking the Sermo course and re-learning Latin all over again.
>
> You have to learn the lenght of the vowels if you want use a rhetorical prose, as Cicero, and make "scholar clausulae" or if you want to compose classical verses not at all to "pronounce" them. Nobody knows how they were pronounced.
>
> > So please, you French be frank
>
> I like your pun!
>
> > and say: "I don't feel like learning how to use apices" instead of saying: "apices are useless".
>
> As I am frank I will not say this thing. And I frankly repeat: apices are not at all useless to write Latin and moreover they are uggly. Begin to put apices on the Italian words, if they are so beutiful and useful.
>
> Optime vale.
> C. Petronius Dexter
>

 

 
 A. Tullia Scholastica C. Petronio Dextro Ti. Marcio Quadrae quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
   

Ave Quadra,

> You're right about written vs spoken language apps.

We can think that many things about the pronounciation of the Latin are definitively missed.

    ATS:  I don’t theenk so.  


I read this little passage from the De divinatione of Cicero, in his books (II,84) he quotes a kind of pun, that some had taken as a warning of the gods to Crassus. As this general was leaving Rome to the Asian front, a pedlar of figs was claiming : Cauneas! (Cauneae were figs of Caunos) So his claim meant "Buy my figs of Caunos!" But Roman ears can hear this warning: "Cave ne eas" [Do not go! (in Asia)] because of the both words sound in a sort of "Kavneas! or perhaps Kaoneas!".

So now, use the so-called pronunciation "restituta" and to do that use the apices. In the first case you have "Cáuneás" in the second you obtain :"Cavé né eás".

    ATS:  And the entire point of this is that both phrases would be pronounced almost identically...and are in restituta!  The synaloepha blends the vowels, and both would have three syllables, not five.  That process can be heard in Avitus’ You Tube clip, though it is helpful to have the text at hand so one can read it; it is available in Melissa #142, if I am not mistaken (February 2008?).  


As you can see the short an long vowels are not at the same places in the both case. A pupil using the pronunciation so-called "restituta" is not able to hear the warning of the Gods, but the Romans living at the time of Cicero had heart it.

    ATS:  And they would hear it if it were pronounced correctly...

So what? If the pronounciation of the Latin is missed in its great part, can not we speak Latin? We can speak it, of course. But, in my opinion, we have to stop to use the word "restituta" pronounciation, which sounds scholar fraud, because no one of the Romans living in the time of Cicero can correct us, and we do not have one sound record of the speechs of Cicero, and above all when he give us a pun over "Cauneas", one pun, he destroys the scholar pronunciation... So we have to be humble.

    ATS:  I don’t think that this phrase destroys restituta, or anything else.  Take Sermo, and learn the real pronunciation of Latin.  

Vale.
C. Petronius Dexter

Vale, et valete.  

 
   

C. Petronius A. Tulliæ et L. Liviæ s.p.d.,

>> ATS: Exactly on all points.

Those systems are not marking the same things. The "macrons", if it is their name, are a very good help to scan verses and, at this effect, you can put the macron for the long vowels on a short vowel by nature but long by position. But, of course, you do not do that same thing with the apices which mark only the long vowels by nature.

So apices are completly useless and can lead us to mistakes of pronunciation or scansion.

Optime vale.
C. Petronius Dexter

C. Petronius A. Tulliæ Scholasticæ s.p.d.,

> > ATS: I don¹t think that this phrase destroys restituta, or anything else. Take Sermo, and learn the real pronunciation of Latin.

The "real" pronunciation? Avitus came from the past? That smells the argument of authority. I heard the Avitus Youtube record and he certainly does not speak like Cicero. He has an accent...

Optime vale.
C. Petronius Dexter

 A. Tullia Scholastica C. Mariae Caecae quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque bonae voluntatis S.P.D.

   

Salvete Omnes,

I tried to select and paste the paragraph I wanted to address, but ...it became discouragingly difficult, and, since, at least at the moment, this isn't a political or contentious issue, I have chosen to paraphrase.  No disrespect or dissimulation is intended in doing so; I am just making my posting life a bit easier.

When learning modern languages, or looking up words in a modern language one in which one is already proficient, using the dictionary is an excellent resource, both for meaning and pronunciation, but it isn't the only resource.  

    ATS:  Indeed it isn’t, especially not for you and those in your situation.  


When I studied French and German in high school and college, I, as part of my study discipline, immersed myself in listening to those languages via the radio.  I loved, for example to listen to news broadcasts both on French and German stations, not because I could understand everything being said ...I emphatically couldn't, but to familiarize myself with things like language flow, rhythm, the ways in which words were stressed, and yes, at least with words I *did* understand, pronunciation.  Such passive listening was incredibly helpful to me, and, according to my instructors, at the time, my pronunciation was pretty good.  I've gotten very rusty since, of course ...but that is a function of lack of practice and age.  My point is that, while we *can* listen to spoken modern languages, it is difficult to listen to much in the way of spoken Latin, and even harder to identify and find Latin spoken accurately, according to the latest in linguistic studies.  There are some examples, including those provided by our own Latinists, but they are relatively few and don't give what I might call a "spontaneous dialog" that is, a flow of speech that isn't previously prepared and read (assumedly with previous practice.)  True, the news casts to which I listened were also pre-prepared, but often the commentary and the interviews were not, so I got to hear the language as spoken.  naturally, the *real* joy came when I physically visited France and Germany.  I would sit in public places, just ...listening, not trying to translate, just absorbing the language.  

    ATS:  In addition to the resources mentioned, several prominent Latinists have videos and/or podcasts of themselves reading various Latin texts.  I wish I could hear the YLE radio, but for some reason this computer will not cooperate; I can see the text, but not hear the broadcast, as I could on the previous computer.  

OK, let me stop here before I get all poetical.  Now ...to apices.  Because of the lack of spoken examplers, if we ever want to become proficient in spoken Latin, and if we want that spoken to ever become  Lingua Franca (sp?), one of the things that will become important will be to standardize, in some way, the way in which words are pronounced.  Of course, there will always be differences, caused by the native language of the speaker, and perhaps by how the speaker was originally taught, but, eventually, I think it will be possible to recreate a spoken language that is both modern and functional, by which people who share no other language can communicate freely and meaningfully, *and* have it reflect accurately, if not exactly replicate, classical Latin.

    ATS:  Indeed we can...but at present those trained in living Latin can communicate even though there are several different pronunciations in use, centering on restituta and the Italian (so-called Church Latin) one, for several of the participants in these conventicula (or at least those which are actual meetings, like the ALF) are members of the Roman Catholic clergy.  I even understood most of the British English I heard in England, too, though it ranged from Liverpudlian to Londonese (not really Cockney), with RP in between. ;-)  One can overcome some of these differences, especially with a little practice.  

Of course, I am nothing but a beginning student, and pretend to nothing else, but even beginning students can dream!

    ATS:  Indeed you can!  I think you would be a good candidate for one of the Latin conventicula, but you do have to get a lot more under your belt.  The nearest one to you that I know of is with Terentius in Lexington, Kentucky, but he has a reputation for being intolerant of beginners...and of mistakes.  If you could get to the beginners’ session at the Rusticatio Virginiana, that would probably be better.  One of our former students, Uvius, had completed the living Latin course, and was with Avitus on the navigatio conducted by the Academia Latinitatis Fovendae this year (sailing around the Mediterranean, and stopping at assorted places, chatting in Latin the whole time), so it can be done.  I might add that one of the beginners at my conventiculum with Professor Berard became a citizen, possibly partly because I was there and made no secret of my connection with Nova Roma.

Respectfully,
C. Maria Caeca

Vale, et valete.  

   

C. Petronius A. Scholasticæ s.p.d.,

This "Latin" speaker has a very strong accent from North America...

Listen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTX35O7LfRw&feature=related

I am sure that M. Tullius Cicero did not speak like that.

Vale.
C. Petronius Dexter

In a message dated 11/7/2009 7:27:59 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, scriba_forum@... writes:

Anyway....for those who want revisions to laws:
 
Why bother with more laws if they are not going to be honoured, but rather, *doctored up* ad hoc by anyone with authority to edit the website. We are not talking dotted *i's* and crossed *t's* in the above revisions... the entire legal parameter of the lex itself was changed.
 
At one point, the Tabularium was under the protection of the Praetores, and no changes were to be made which were not authorized by the Praetura.... .what happened?
 
And I must ask myself..if the Tabularium is so easily accessed and revised, have other legislations potentially being changed under our noses?
 
I am sure I'll be raked over the coals for creating a 'conspiracy theory' and we can not worry about it, and if it has descended to the point where nobody is worried about it, we are indeed in a serious state of affairs.
 

 

 

Actually Po, I have been saying this for years.  There are so many laws floating around that if some got changed over the ten years, we'd never know it.  We need a original hard copy in a safe deposit box.  That is how a business would do this.  

 

Fabius

Cato omnibus in foro SPD

Salvete omnes!

Hodiernus dies est ante diem VI Idus Novembris; haec dies comitialis est.

"Whilst Privernum was invested by two consular armies, one of the
consuls was recalled home to conduct the elections. It was in this
year that the carceres were erected in the Circus Maximus. The trouble
of the war with Privernum was not yet over when a most alarming report
of a sudden movement amongst the Gauls reached the senate. Such
reports were not often treated lightly. The new consuls, L. Aemilius
Mamercinus and C Plautius, were immediately ordered to arrange their
respective commands on the very day they assumed office, namely July
1. The Gaulish war fell to Mamercinus, and he allowed none of those
who were called up for service to claim exemption. It is even asserted
that the mob of mechanics and artizans, a class utterly unfit for
warfare, were called out. An immense army was concentrated at Veii to
check the advance of the Gauls. It was thought better not to march any
further in case the enemy took some other route to the City. After a
thorough reconnaissance had been made, it was ascertained after a few
days that all was quiet as far as the Gauls were concerned, and the
whole force was thereupon marched to Privernum. From this point there
is a twofold story. Some state that the city was stormed and Vitrubius
taken alive; other authorities aver that before the final assault the
townsmen came out with a caduceus and surrendered to the consul,
whilst Vitrubius was given up by his own men. The senate, when
consulted as to the fate of Vitrubius and the Privernates, instructed
the consul to demolish the walls of Privernum and station a strong
garrison there, and then to celebrate his triumph. Vitrubius was to be
kept in prison until the consul returned and then to be scourged and
beheaded; his house on the Palatine was to be razed and his goods
devoted to Semo Sancus. The money realised by their sale was melted
down into brazen orbs which were deposited in the chapel of Sancus
opposite the temple of Quirinus. With regard to the senate of
Privernum, it was decreed that every senator who had remained in that
city after its revolt from Rome should be deported beyond the Tiber on
the same conditions as those of Velitrae. After his triumph, when
Vitrubius and his accomplices had been put to death, the consul
thought that as the senate was satisfied with the punishment of the
guilty, he might safely refer to the matter of the Privernates. He
addressed the House in the following terms: "Since the authors of the
revolt, senators, have been visited by the immortal gods and by you
with the punishment they deserved, what is your pleasure with regard
to the innocent population? Although it is my duty to ask for opinions
rather than to give them, I should like to say that in view of the
fact that the Privernates are neighbours of the Samnites, with whom
peaceful relations are now upon a most uncertain footing, I am anxious
that as few grounds of complaint as possible should exist between us
and them."

The question was not an easy one to settle, for the senators, were
governed largely by their temperaments and some advised a harsh,
others a gentler course. The general divergence of opinion was widened
by one of the Privernate envoys who was thinking more of the state of
things in which he had been born than of his present plight. One of
the senators who was advocating sterner measures asked him what
punishment he thought his countrymen deserved. He replied: "The
punishment which those deserve who assert their liberty." The consul
saw that this spirited reply only exasperated those who were already
adverse to the cause of the Privernates, and he tried to get a softer
answer by a more considerate question. "Well," he said, "if we spare
you now, what sort of a peace may we hope to have with you for the
time to come?" "A real and lasting one," was the reply, "if its terms
be good, but if they are bad, one that will soon be broken." On
hearing this, some of the senators exclaimed that he was using open
threats, and that it was by such language that even those states which
had been pacified were incited to renew hostilities. The better part
of the senate, however, put a more favourable construction on his
reply, and declared that it was an utterance worthy of a man and a man
who loved liberty. Was it, they asked, to be supposed that any people
or for that matter, any individual would remain longer than he could
help under conditions which made him discontented? Peace would only be
faithfully kept where those who accepted it did so voluntarily; they
could not hope that it would be faithfully kept where they sought to
reduce men to servitude. The senate was brought to adopt this view
mainly by the consul himself who kept repeating to the consulars-the
men who had to state their opinions first-in a tone loud enough for
many to hear, "Men whose first and last thought is their liberty
deserve to become Romans." Thus they gained their cause in the senate,
and the proposal to confer full citizenship on the Privernates was
submitted to the people." - Livy, History of Rome 8.20



Today is the last celebration of the Mania, and the rite of mundus was
performed for the final time of the year. In this ceremony an effigy
representing the sky was placed upside down in a pit and and covered
with a large stone called the lapis manalis. Three times a year,
including today, the stone was removed to alow the spirits of the
underworld access to the upper regions of the earth. Mania is the
goddess of the dead and along with Mantus rules the underworld. She is
said to be the mother of ghosts, the undead and other spirits of the
night, as well as the Lares and the Manes, the spirits of Roman
ancestors. Mania was borrowed from the Etruscan goddess Manea after
the assimilation of the Etruscan people by the Romans, and from the
Greeks as the goddess of madness and death --- with her sister
Insania, utter madness, she was a cruel mistress.



"Illustrious Rhea ... Mother of Gods and Men, who from Gaia (Earth)
and spacious Ouranos (Heaven) derives her glorious birth." –Orphic
Hymn 14 to Rhea

"Ops is said to be the wife of Saturn. By her they designated the
earth, because the earth distributes all goods to the human gender." -
Festus 203:19

Today is also sacred to Ops, or the Greek Rhea. Ops is the goddess of
harvests. She was the wife of Saturn, by whom she bore Iuppiter and
Iuno. At her festivals, the Opiconsivia and the Opalia, held in August
and December, respectively, she was worshiped as a goddess of sowing
and reaping and was associated with Consus, god of crops. She was
later identified with the Greek Rhea. The Latin word ops means
"riches, goods, abundance, gifts, munificence, plenty". This word is
also related to opus, meaning "work" and, particularly "working the
earth, ploughing, sowing". Ops was the goddess of plenty among the
Latins (Romans). She was the spouse of Saturn, the bountiful monarch
of the Golden Age. Just as Saturn was identified to Kronos, his Greek
counterpart, Ops was identified to Rhea, the wife of Kronos (or
"Cronus", in the Latin spelling). The cult of Ops was instituted by King Titus Tatius, the Sabine monarch. And Ops soon became the patroness of riches, abundance, and prosperity both personal and national. She is shown seated, holding sheaves of grain.

In Greek mythology, Rhea was the mother of the gods, daughter of
Uranus and Gaia. She was married to her brother Kronos and was the
mother of Demeter, Hades, Hera, Hestia, Poseidon and Zeus. Kronos was
jealous of the future power of his children and, to secure his
dominion, he ate his own children. Rhea managed to rescue one son,
Zeus. She hid him in the Dictean Cave in Crete and gave Kronos a stone
wrapped in the clothes of the infant, which he swallowed. Thus Rhea
succeeded in making him believe that he had killed all of his
children. When Zeus reached maturity he overpowered and dethroned his
father and made Kronos disgorge his siblings. Rhea is identified with
mother goddess Cybele from Asia Minor and is also known as Rhea Cybele
and Magna Mater ("great mother"). She was worshipped with orgiastic
rites. Rhea is depicted between two lions or on a chariot pulled by lions.

From Plutarch:

"If you call your enemy uneducated, strive to intensify in yourself the love of learning and industry; if you call him a coward, rouse even more your self-reliance and manliness; if you call him unchaste and licentious, obliterate from your soul whatever trace of devotion to pleasure may be lurking there unperceived. For there is nothing more disgraceful or painful than evil-speaking that recoils upon its author. So reflected light appears to be the more troublesome in cases of weak eyesight, and the same is true of censures that by the truth are brought back upon the very persons who are responsible for them. For as surely the north-east wind brings the clouds, so surely does a bad life bring revilings upon itself." - Moralia, "De capienda ex inimicis utilitate" 4

Valete bene!

Cato

Salve Consularis Strabo!

The Tabularium must be a central preoccupation. It is for me, as current praetor. In agreement with praetor G. Equitius Marinus, I have scheduled to spend the necessary time, after the current Plebeian and Curule elections, on our Tabularium, to try bettering up i.e. giving our citizens a more direct, clear and transparent access to it.

Senator consularis Q. Fabius Maximus is fully right underlining the fact that we should have a copy, on an separated support, of our tabularium, ideally in every of its successive states. This is one of the points that our magister aranearius, if needed in collaboration with NR Inc. CIO, will no doubt lean upon before next Dec. 31st.

On the matter of your message, at this step and before the more detailed examination that I wish to have after our current elections, your point of view seems correct on both points, as are interesting the general questions you ask.

I therefore take good notice of them and will come back to you on this question.


Tibi gratias Consularis et vale sincerely,



P. Memmius Albucius
praetor

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "P. Minucia Tiberia" <scriba_forum@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Po Minucia Strabo Praetoribus Quiritibus Sal
>
> Here is something else, which I guess I shall first address to the Praetores, then who is responsible for altering legislation inappropriately for website publication....
>
> It is regarding what is listed as the Lex Apula Poplillia de nominibus approbationaibusque (Nova Roma)
>
> I. It is listed as having been passed in the year of Modianus' and my consulship in 2006...in fact it was not, but rather passed by the people via comitia populi tributa during the consulship of Apulus Caesar and Popillius Laenus in 2005.
>
> II. More importantly...it is incorrectly named on the website. Caesar and Laenus, in keeping with longstanding Nova Roma tradition, promulgated the legislation under the Censor who wrote it, Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintillianus. When Consuls name the legislation in a certain fashion and it passes the people by that name, then this is what should be entered in the tabularium...it should not be altered, unless it goes back to the people for revision. The website cannot be whimsically altered to entertain another name...for any reason. If I promulgated a legislation in NR, as the Lex Elmer Fudd, and barring any intercessio, it was voted as such by the people, it should be entered into the Tabularium as such. If it is desirable to Latinize the name by entitling 'Elmerus Fuddus', that is fine, but that's the extent of authority the editors/nomenclators have, if I understand things correctly...and I think I do...
>
> Here are the links affirming the name of the lex as promulgated by the Consuls of 2005
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NovaRoma-Announce/message765
>
> Here it is passed by the people as announced in the results:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NovaRoma-Announce/message784
>
> A small quibble: The consuls renamed the legislation as Fabia Butona in announcing the voting results (Fabius had changed his name to Fabius Buteo); but since the law was originally promulgated as the Lex Fabia, and that is what the people vote adopted, the published law should read as such.
>
> I don't know who felt a great need to change it..are people doing this transcription by memory or are they relying on archives to ensure accuracy in entering data onto our website? There has never been a legal mandate for the consuls to name the legislation after themselves, and this has been observed throughout the years with the Consuls naming laws after the Censors, if the Censors have written the law up to address Censoral issues.
>
> I respectfully ask you to please ensure that the title of the lex is corrected, as well as the year, and under whose consulships this lex was promulgated.

Salve Pauline

On Nov 7, 2009, at 8:49 PM, Timothy or Stephen Gallagher wrote:
> >>>I am sure that if the electorate elects me as Consul Equestria
> Iunia Laeca and I will continue our most excellent relationship.<<<

You have been one of my most valued friends and colleagues. There is
no doubt in my mind that if you are elected consul that our
relationship will continue to be productive and enjoyable.


> >>>While I respect my friend Equestria Iunia Laeca, as a patrician
> she makes the mistake of viewing Triunes as part of a "working"
> government". The are not. They are or should be the "anti-
> magistrate" making sure that the rights of Romans are respected and
> that elected officials stay within the confines of the LAW. If the
> Tribunes are part of this working government then they do not know
> their role.<<<

I imagine that you are implying that I believe the Tribunes should
stand shoulder to shoulder with the government against the people or
otherwise ignore their pleas for the same effect. If so, I do not.
The tribunate have the critical role of protecting the plebeians
interest and are accountable to the citizens that elect them for
fulfilling that role as is expected. This is true of all elected
officials and is the cornerstone of our res publica.


> >>>Another term for "cooperative teamwork" could be "one party
> state".<<<

To work in cooperation does not mean to blindly follow the leader.
You and I have been on different sides of issues at times. Yet
despite such disagreements, we have always respected the others
decision to be based on valid reasons and have never used such
opposition against each other.

I have worked on many teams in my life and have never found one in
which all members agreed on everything. In fact, if that were the
case, there would be no need for a team at all. The purpose of
collaboration is that everyone's opinion matters, most especially
those that disagree. This is how problems are found and how solutions
are formed. It is this factor that ultimately makes the process
productive and beneficial. It is this concept that drives progress.
Cooperation is the foundation. The opposite, prevents or even
reverses it.

Vale

Equestria Iunia Laeca
Candidata Praetrix

Salve Pompeia, et salvete quirites,

P. Minucia Tiberia wrote:

> Here is something else, which I guess I shall first address to the
> Praetores, then who is responsible for altering legislation
> inappropriately for website publication....

Thanks for bringing this matter to my attention.

> It is regarding what is listed as the Lex Apula Poplillia de
> nominibus approbationaibusque (Nova Roma)

For the benefit of those following the discussion, this can be found at
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Lex_Apula_Popillia_de_nominibus_approbationibusque_%28Nova_Roma%29

> I. It is listed as having been passed in the year of Modianus' and
> my consulship in 2006...in fact it was not, but rather passed by the
> people via comitia populi tributa during the consulship of Apulus
> Caesar and Popillius Laenus in 2005.

You are correct, of course. It was passed very late in December of your year.

> II. More importantly...it is incorrectly named on the website.
> Caesar and Laenus, in keeping with longstanding Nova Roma tradition,
> promulgated the legislation under the Censor who wrote it, Caeso
> Fabius Buteo Quintillianus.

Yes, I also remember this. Looking at the change record on the
website (something anyone can do), I see the Wiki version was created
by A. Appolonius Cordus on 21 August 2006. It does not make any
mention of the name of the Lex as passed in Comitia.

> When Consuls name the legislation in a certain fashion and it
> passes the people by that name, then this is what should be entered
> in the tabularium.

I agree. Furthermore, I've been involved in several discussions where
I made exactly this point. If the Comitia enact the Lex Mickey Mouse,
no matter how ahistorical that name, it is the legal name of the lex.
I certainly never intended my law that allows the praetores to make
changes to spelling and punctuation to be somehow interpreted to allow
wholesale changes to the names off laws.

> ..it should not be altered, unless it goes back to the people for
> revision. The website cannot be whimsically altered to entertain
> another name...for any reason.

I agree. As you know, there are others, and some of them have been
elected praetor over the years, who firmly believe that laws should
only be named after the consuls who promulgated them. I suspect that
is why we see the situation that currently exists.

> Here are the links affirming the name of the lex as promulgated by
> the Consuls of 2005
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NovaRoma-Announce/message/765
>
> Here it is passed by the people as announced in the results:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NovaRoma-Announce/message/784
>
> A small quibble: The consuls renamed the legislation as Fabia
> Butona in announcing the voting results (Fabius had changed his name
> to Fabius Buteo); but since the law was originally promulgated as
> the Lex Fabia, and that is what the people vote adopted, the
> published law should read as such.

Yes, that is correct.

> I don't know who felt a great need to change it.

I would assume Cordus, or whomever he was working for at the time.
Even so, I suspect he recommended it. He's a big one for following
historical practice even when it conflicts directly with Nova Roman
practice.

> .are people doing this transcription by memory or are they relying
> on archives to ensure accuracy in entering data onto our website?

Every edit to a Wiki page is archived. You can click on the "history"
tab at the top of a page and look at the entire revision history for
that page. Where things break down is when somebody changes the name
of a page, since the archiving system relies on the page name for
access to history. Thus we have no way to look at the history of the
law in the Tabularium before Cordus created the page with the name Lex
Apula Popillia (etc...)

> I respectfully ask you to please ensure that the title of the lex is
> corrected, as well as the year, and under whose consulships this
> lex was promulgated.

I just edited the page to change the date of passage to 31 Dec 2005.
I'm forwarding this message to the NR_Wiki mailing list to get advice
from the experts there on how best to create a page with the proper
name and link it to the existing record of changes.

Vale, et valete,

CN-EQVIT-MARINVS

Q Caecilius Metellus Po Minuciae P Memmio sal.

Saluete,

If I may, though I'm not in favour of the change Strabo mentioned, I
would like to address one of the possible reasons for the change.

Some years ago, and I recall a number of notables taking place in this,
there was an argument raised about the appropriate naming of leges. The
thrust of the argument was that, regardless of who wrote the
legislation, legislation should be named for the individual who put it
to the centuries or tribes (or concilium, as the case may be). There
were arguments against that, of course, much to the effect of the
tradition that has been long held within Nova Roma. But it would appear
to me that this may be the standpoint taken which precipitated the
change in name.

Also, with respect to the conversation of which I'm speaking, I find
that it took place in November of 2006, and, interestingly enough,
concerned this same piece of legislation.

Di Romanos incolumes custodiant.

Quintus Caecilius Metellus Postumianus

Salve Marinus Praetor, Salvete Omnes:

I appreciate your attention to the issue below, in keeping with long established NR convention. There is no law against promulgating a law in favour of the Censor and, with you, I don't see much room for flexibility in changing the name of the lex, nor the body in the process of routine grammatical editing. Caeso Fabius and his team worked hard on this legislation, as surely as Cornelius Sulla and Marius et al, et al worked on their censoral stuff way back when, and to date the censors have never been denied credit for their work out of historical correctness.

This brings me to the other concern I raised last night in message 71697, on the existing fallacious rewrite of the Lex Minucia Moravia eiratione magistratum Comitium Plebium Tributorum et Comitium Populum Tributum. It is not binding on the comitia centuriata as this rewrite claims; the name is incorrect, clauses are present which were not passed by the people, namely the last one in the rewrite on century points.

With all due respect, I can send you the final version approved by comitia, as published on the announce list. Would you please replace the current rubbish with the corrected version, and change the title? The current publication is hardly lawful.

I, like you, notice some inconsistencies in how the logs present on the wikipedia; your explanation about creating a new page to interrupt the trail of editions makes sense to me, but I realize I say this without being as technically inclined as others. I cannot, for example, find where this lex was originally entered into the website, so it's difficult to assertain who made what amendments, or if they were just amending the format of the bogus version.

I'm less concerned about who did it at this point than just having it fixed; I don't think we'll ever know, but if this can be done with one, two leges, it seems to me it's an easy task to put graffiti on other laws. The system needs a bit more security. And Maximus raises a good point...sad that it would have to be this way, but a good old fashioned paper trail might be necessary.

Vale
Pompeia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Pompeia, et salvete quirites,
>
> P. Minucia Tiberia wrote:
> > Here is something else, which I guess I shall first address to the
> > Praetores, then who is responsible for altering legislation
> > inappropriately for website publication....
>
> Thanks for bringing this matter to my attention.
>
> > It is regarding what is listed as the Lex Apula Poplillia de
> > nominibus approbationaibusque (Nova Roma)
>
> For the benefit of those following the discussion, this can be found at
> http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Lex_Apula_Popillia_de_nominibus_approbationibusque_%28Nova_Roma%29
>
> > I. It is listed as having been passed in the year of Modianus' and
> > my consulship in 2006...in fact it was not, but rather passed by the
> > people via comitia populi tributa during the consulship of Apulus
> > Caesar and Popillius Laenus in 2005.
>
> You are correct, of course. It was passed very late in December of your year.
>
> > II. More importantly...it is incorrectly named on the website.
> > Caesar and Laenus, in keeping with longstanding Nova Roma tradition,
> > promulgated the legislation under the Censor who wrote it, Caeso
> > Fabius Buteo Quintillianus.
>
> Yes, I also remember this. Looking at the change record on the
> website (something anyone can do), I see the Wiki version was created
> by A. Appolonius Cordus on 21 August 2006. It does not make any
> mention of the name of the Lex as passed in Comitia.
>
> > When Consuls name the legislation in a certain fashion and it
> > passes the people by that name, then this is what should be entered
> > in the tabularium.
>
> I agree. Furthermore, I've been involved in several discussions where
> I made exactly this point. If the Comitia enact the Lex Mickey Mouse,
> no matter how ahistorical that name, it is the legal name of the lex.
> I certainly never intended my law that allows the praetores to make
> changes to spelling and punctuation to be somehow interpreted to allow
> wholesale changes to the names off laws.
>
> > ..it should not be altered, unless it goes back to the people for
> > revision. The website cannot be whimsically altered to entertain
> > another name...for any reason.
>
> I agree. As you know, there are others, and some of them have been
> elected praetor over the years, who firmly believe that laws should
> only be named after the consuls who promulgated them. I suspect that
> is why we see the situation that currently exists.
>
> > Here are the links affirming the name of the lex as promulgated by
> > the Consuls of 2005
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NovaRoma-Announce/message/765
> >
> > Here it is passed by the people as announced in the results:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NovaRoma-Announce/message/784
> >
> > A small quibble: The consuls renamed the legislation as Fabia
> > Butona in announcing the voting results (Fabius had changed his name
> > to Fabius Buteo); but since the law was originally promulgated as
> > the Lex Fabia, and that is what the people vote adopted, the
> > published law should read as such.
>
> Yes, that is correct.
>
> > I don't know who felt a great need to change it.
>
> I would assume Cordus, or whomever he was working for at the time.
> Even so, I suspect he recommended it. He's a big one for following
> historical practice even when it conflicts directly with Nova Roman
> practice.
>
> > .are people doing this transcription by memory or are they relying
> > on archives to ensure accuracy in entering data onto our website?
>
> Every edit to a Wiki page is archived. You can click on the "history"
> tab at the top of a page and look at the entire revision history for
> that page. Where things break down is when somebody changes the name
> of a page, since the archiving system relies on the page name for
> access to history. Thus we have no way to look at the history of the
> law in the Tabularium before Cordus created the page with the name Lex
> Apula Popillia (etc...)
>
> > I respectfully ask you to please ensure that the title of the lex is
> > corrected, as well as the year, and under whose consulships this
> > lex was promulgated.
>
> I just edited the page to change the date of passage to 31 Dec 2005.
> I'm forwarding this message to the NR_Wiki mailing list to get advice
> from the experts there on how best to create a page with the proper
> name and link it to the existing record of changes.
>
> Vale, et valete,
>
> CN-EQVIT-MARINVS
>

Strabo Metello sal

If you wish to mimimize this to a minor argument on nomenclature, such is your prerogative. The point is, edits should be documented, and not without the Praetores' sanction. Moreover, when a law is promulgated and passed, the whole law, including it's title, is adopted and documented as such. When you change the title of the law, you are overstepping your authority under any law which restricts you to make cosmetic English or Latin changes. And there is no law, restricting consular nomenclature of their proposed and passed legislation.

And, as much as I appreciate your entitlement to your opinion, your reasoning lends little to explaining why the body of at least one piece of legislation I've discovered has been vastly altered from what was passed by the people. This too, is not a matter of trivial discussion; at least one person has been playing Etch-a-sketch on our law tables.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Q. Caecilius Metellus" <q.caecilius.metellus@...> wrote:
>
> Q Caecilius Metellus Po Minuciae P Memmio sal.
>
> Saluete,
>
> If I may, though I'm not in favour of the change Strabo mentioned, I
> would like to address one of the possible reasons for the change.
>
> Some years ago, and I recall a number of notables taking place in this,
> there was an argument raised about the appropriate naming of leges. The
> thrust of the argument was that, regardless of who wrote the
> legislation, legislation should be named for the individual who put it
> to the centuries or tribes (or concilium, as the case may be). There
> were arguments against that, of course, much to the effect of the
> tradition that has been long held within Nova Roma. But it would appear
> to me that this may be the standpoint taken which precipitated the
> change in name.
>
> Also, with respect to the conversation of which I'm speaking, I find
> that it took place in November of 2006, and, interestingly enough,
> concerned this same piece of legislation.
>
> Di Romanos incolumes custodiant.
>
> Quintus Caecilius Metellus Postumianus
>

Equestria Iunia Laeca Pompeiae Minuciae Straboni sal.

On Nov 7, 2009, at 11:17 PM, pompeia_minucia_tiberia wrote:
> >>>I have absolutely no doubt, Iunia, that you are capable of being
> an excellent Praetor. Upon appraisal of the Praetoral candidates, I
> shall vote for Gn Iulius Caesar and yourself...<<<

I truly appreciate your support. Thank you.


> >>>...Despite having been on opposite sides of the fence from him at
> times, I actually agree more often than not on Caesar's analysis of
> legal dynamics...<<<

I have been on the other side of the fence from Cn. Iulius Caesar at
times also. Even so, I have always believed his opinions were well-
considered and felt that his abilities to analyze and argue a legal
case were exceptional.


> >>>I have one curiosity if I may: may I ask why this particular
> paragraph of your introduction of candidacy (from below) is written
> in the third person? Although I think it very natural to give
> examples on how you would temper a rather passionate running mate
> ( I think you need them in this case), I don't often read them as
> though they are written by someone else.<<<

That paragraph was a little awkward, though since Hortensia Maior and
I wrote the statement together, first and second person seemed to be
as well. And as it was intended as an example for someone outside of
ourselves, we opted to write it from the view of a third person, to be
in contrast with the first person narrative. But, yes I can see how
you would find it curious.

Vale

Equestria Iunia Laeca
Candidata Praetrix

Equestria Iunia Laeca C. Petronio Dextro sal.

We thank you for your support and wonderful endorsement!

Vale optime!

On Nov 8, 2009, at 12:46 AM, petronius_dexter wrote:

> C. Petronius Iuniæ Læcæ et M. Hortensiæ s.p.d.,
>
> You have my full endorsement and I urge citizens to vote for you,
> because I trust in your feminine and fabulous tandem.
>
> Optime valete.
>
> C. Petronius Dexter
> Flamen Portunalis
> Tribunus Plebis candidatus.

Salve Albucius Praetor Salvete Omnes:

I appreciate your attention to the matter Praetor.

Vale
Pompeia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "publiusalbucius" <albucius_aoe@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Consularis Strabo!
>
> The Tabularium must be a central preoccupation. It is for me, as current praetor. In agreement with praetor G. Equitius Marinus, I have scheduled to spend the necessary time, after the current Plebeian and Curule elections, on our Tabularium, to try bettering up i.e. giving our citizens a more direct, clear and transparent access to it.
>
> Senator consularis Q. Fabius Maximus is fully right underlining the fact that we should have a copy, on an separated support, of our tabularium, ideally in every of its successive states. This is one of the points that our magister aranearius, if needed in collaboration with NR Inc. CIO, will no doubt lean upon before next Dec. 31st.
>
> On the matter of your message, at this step and before the more detailed examination that I wish to have after our current elections, your point of view seems correct on both points, as are interesting the general questions you ask.
>
> I therefore take good notice of them and will come back to you on this question.
>
>
> Tibi gratias Consularis et vale sincerely,
>
>
>
> P. Memmius Albucius
> praetor
>
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "P. Minucia Tiberia" <scriba_forum@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Po Minucia Strabo Praetoribus Quiritibus Sal
> >
> > Here is something else, which I guess I shall first address to the Praetores, then who is responsible for altering legislation inappropriately for website publication....
> >
> > It is regarding what is listed as the Lex Apula Poplillia de nominibus approbationaibusque (Nova Roma)
> >
> > I. It is listed as having been passed in the year of Modianus' and my consulship in 2006...in fact it was not, but rather passed by the people via comitia populi tributa during the consulship of Apulus Caesar and Popillius Laenus in 2005.
> >
> > II. More importantly...it is incorrectly named on the website. Caesar and Laenus, in keeping with longstanding Nova Roma tradition, promulgated the legislation under the Censor who wrote it, Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintillianus. When Consuls name the legislation in a certain fashion and it passes the people by that name, then this is what should be entered in the tabularium...it should not be altered, unless it goes back to the people for revision. The website cannot be whimsically altered to entertain another name...for any reason. If I promulgated a legislation in NR, as the Lex Elmer Fudd, and barring any intercessio, it was voted as such by the people, it should be entered into the Tabularium as such. If it is desirable to Latinize the name by entitling 'Elmerus Fuddus', that is fine, but that's the extent of authority the editors/nomenclators have, if I understand things correctly...and I think I do...
> >
> > Here are the links affirming the name of the lex as promulgated by the Consuls of 2005
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NovaRoma-Announce/message765
> >
> > Here it is passed by the people as announced in the results:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NovaRoma-Announce/message784
> >
> > A small quibble: The consuls renamed the legislation as Fabia Butona in announcing the voting results (Fabius had changed his name to Fabius Buteo); but since the law was originally promulgated as the Lex Fabia, and that is what the people vote adopted, the published law should read as such.
> >
> > I don't know who felt a great need to change it..are people doing this transcription by memory or are they relying on archives to ensure accuracy in entering data onto our website? There has never been a legal mandate for the consuls to name the legislation after themselves, and this has been observed throughout the years with the Consuls naming laws after the Censors, if the Censors have written the law up to address Censoral issues.
> >
> > I respectfully ask you to please ensure that the title of the lex is corrected, as well as the year, and under whose consulships this lex was promulgated.
>