C. Petronius Cn. Lentulo suo s.p.d.,

> Such things belong to another place, to a much more internal forum.

I think it is better to discover since the beginning of application the sides of Nova Roma, the good and the less good, rather than imagine it is Wonderland.

> This forum is for recruitment, sharing infos about interesting Roman news, archeology, Latin literature, Roman history, talking about NR events, meetings, programs, and for a GENERAL discussion of NR news and politics, but "general" means that until the point when it remains purely informative and emotion-less.

The problem is that the trolls are too often fed.

> It's high importance to hold such discussion in another list. Or does the UNICEF or the WWF disclose their internal political conflicts in a Yahoo mailing list open to everyone?

It is worst.

Optime vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
a. d. XIII Kal. Feb. P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.

Salvé Gai Antoni,

May I extend a warm welcome to you to Nova Roma. This ml, this forum, is just a small portion of what encompasses Nova Roma. There are many Novi Romani who are involved in other pursuits, many of whom rarely visit this list. But even here if you page back through the posts you will find wonderful informative threads.
You must remember in ancient Rome many disagreements were worked out in the forum and here, in Nova Roma, we surely have our share and for the most part they are the same actors. Fortunately most of us have the luxury to simply bypass those particular threads.
I suggest that you visit our official website NovaRoma.org and follow the links within where you will find websites and wikis owned and maintained by fellow Novi Romani.
For example:
http://www.wikihow.com/User:Agricola

In addition please do not hesitate to contact other citizens such as your fellow citizens, members of the Collegium Pontificum, or Magistrates, some of whom are scholars or have a well honed interest in a variety of subjects on Ancient Rome and would be glad to speak with you regarding your interests or guide you to the right place.

Nova Roma is what each individual makes of it. We can always use volunteers to help with a variety of activities including a North American Conventus. There are so many ways to get involved.
A great asset to Nova Roma are the wonderful free online Latin courses provided by our Latinists, particularly Magistra A. Tullia Scholastica. Magistra is a wealth of information and knowledge and would welcome a discussion on a variety of topics including learning Latin.

Do you have a particular interest?

I do hope you continue to stay with us and contribute towards the success of the respublica.

Valé optimé,

Julia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Roberts <gaiusantoniusflavius@...> wrote:
>
> Maybe I'm out of line, but I'm a new citizen of Nova Roma. I am in my 90 day probationary period. Does argueing like this in a public forum help you raise "taxes". I can say this has shed a new light on Nova Roma I wasn't aware of and one that will make me think twice about paying "taxes" when my probationary period ends and whether or not I even remain in Nova Roma if this is the kind of thing that goes on behind the scenes. Congratulations, you have officially made something fun and made a new member wonder if he made the wrong choice by joining.

Salve,
True we are all shocked about how we fight and yet look at us every month, we're like a bloody time loop. Fight, apologize, mention something else, debate fight, etc. Since I've joined it's been like that and from what I've heard it's been like that for awhile. However we have to realize a point when we say it's human nature. Go to a church or a school, a temple, ancient Rome, pre-columbian america, internet boards, PTA meetings, or dark caves with only two people this cycle is present everywhere. Even the Gods argue from time to time. Does everyone remember the story of the apple of discord? We fight we do everyone fights what we have to make sure is that it doesn't come between us as brothers and sisters of Rome. Everyone will always have different opinions ALWAYS the only way to prevent it is to go off and create a group where there is only one but then... that wouldn't be as much fun would it?
So in true NR style I'm going to open a new discussion. Actualy a few.
1. Good luck symbols. Does anyone keep pictures or amulets of the gorgons, phalloi, etc for good luck?
2.Patron deities. Who and why?
3. Gods who watch over modern inventions. Who of our pantheon would you say rules over fiber optic communications, the internet, etc?
4. This one I do only halfheartedly as I can see that it will cause a bit of unevenness for us. When you have a Laraium do you consider it sacred, do you consider the statues to be the deities themselves, or representations?
Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant.
Nero




________________________________
From: aerdensrw <aerdensrw@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, January 20, 2010 2:00:37 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Regarding this Interesting Development


P. Corva Gaudialis Gaio Antonio Flavio sal.

It's good to have you here, however long you might be with us. Welcome!

As for what you've laudably said--I've tried many times to suggest that the bickering on this list is damaging to us as an organization and to our recruitment efforts. I was pretty shocked when I first joined, because no other mailing list I belong to is as fractious as this one. It still shocks me.

The only advantage I can see to it is that people who consider joining Nova Roma can do so with their eyes open. If you see how ugly it is and still wish to be a member, at least you know what you're getting into.

I have had my periods in which I considered leaving Nova Roma. I am really more interested in studying Roman culture, particularly its medical practices, than in recreating Roman culture in the modern world, with a system of laws, its religion, etc. This is the 21st century, not the era BC.

I'd suggest you decide which you are more interested in--recreating Rome, with its religion and politics, or simply studying the culture. I honestly think the way NR is organized, it breeds politicking by its very nature--the yearly running for office, the concept of laws which have no legal weight outside of Nova Roma, etc.

I sometimes ask myself what it is I love about Nova Roma--and then I know the answer. It's the fact that I have met some truly outstanding people here, who I deeply respect--They are not the ones who constantly bicker. I'm talkling about Marcus Audens, Maria Caeca, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus, Messalina Valeria, Aula Scholastica, and Stephanus Ullerius Venator. They are wonderful people who I hope you won't deny yourself the pleasure of befriending. There are others.

There is a New Roman mailing list (part of NR), which I'm told is quite enjoyable to participate in and which I plan to join. You might find more congenial conversation there. I hope to. :)

Best wishes to you in your exploration of Roman culture, in whatever direction it may take you.

Paulla Corva
Lictrix
Past Rogatrix and Diribitrix Suffecta

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, Stephen Roberts <gaiusantoniusflavi us@...> wrote:
>
> Maybe I'm out of line, but I'm a new citizen of Nova Roma. I am in my 90 day probationary period. Does argueing like this in a public forum help you raise "taxes". I can say this has shed a new light on Nova Roma I wasn't aware of and one that will make me think twice about paying "taxes" when my probationary period ends and whether or not I even remain in Nova Roma if this is the kind of thing that goes on behind the scenes. Congratulations, you have officially made something fun and made a new member wonder if he made the wrong choice by joining.
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mistress Paula Corva, and Stephan;

My thanks for your very nice compliment. I am not sure that it is
deserved to that extent, but it is indeed easy on the ears!! In
regard to leaving Nova Roma, I did leave several months ago, due to a
very deep depression which I really don't remember much about,
however, I came back to Nova Roma, with the blessing of most of those
whom I knew, and I am very glad that I was allowed to return. My
reasoning for this was the same as Mistress Corva's reason. I missed
my brother Senator Quintillianus, and those with whom I have a solid
friendship and understanding. I also missed the Sodalitas Militarium
which I founded and I missed the Roman publications which I have
undertaken and from which I have learned so much. I am one of those
who is a "student" of Roman Military History. That is my hobby and I
am learning a great deal by being allowed to participate in this
venture. I belong to a reenactment Legio (Legio III "Cyrenaica")
which is outside of Nova Roma, but which has some members in NR. Nova
Roma is many things to many different people. There are people here
like myself who are interested in Roman history, and then there are
people who are interested in learning the Latin language. Obviously,
there are those here who find a place where they can worship the Roman
Gods in the old Pagan ways. Some who are here are here to develop a
government which is open and fair, and there are some here who are
learning what that means. Some here are interested in the Arts, some
in the detailed Roman culture and some in the military, and some in
the food and drink. There are clubs which have been established for
each of those ideas called a Sodalitas, and they are for those in NR
who are interested.

For all of these people and the ones that I have not covered, one must
remember that this is a worldwide organization and there are people
here in Nova Roma from other countries and other cultures. In any
organization that is as widespread as Nova Roma there is bound to be
some mistakes made in determinations, and meanings. There is bound to
be people who disagree with other people because of education,
background and experience. The trick here is to be able to agree to
disagree, to allow others to hold their ideas and you have the right
to hold yours, and all this has to be done in a very civil or polite
way, since you can never be sure that you are not hurting someone's
feelings by what you say or do. Then of course, there are those who
say they are thick-skinned and don't care what they say and those who
are thin-skinned who take everything that is said seriously.

When all this is taken together it is virtually impossible to maintain
a civil list unless it is properly moderated and all list members know
the rules. When this kind of moderation is objected to by those who
wish the freedom to speak, then what happens is exactly what happens
on this list. People get upset and an argument ensues.

It is at times a rough and tumble list, and if you find that you do
not care for that, then you must try another list or Sodalitas which
is more enjoyable to you personally. If you have any questions about
Nova Roma that I can help you with, I should be most glad to do so.

Respectfully;

Marcus Audens

On Jan 20, 2010, at 4:00 PM, aerdensrw wrote:

> P. Corva Gaudialis Gaio Antonio Flavio sal.
>
> It's good to have you here, however long you might be with us.
> Welcome!
>
> As for what you've laudably said--I've tried many times to suggest
> that the bickering on this list is damaging to us as an organization
> and to our recruitment efforts. I was pretty shocked when I first
> joined, because no other mailing list I belong to is as fractious as
> this one. It still shocks me.
>
> The only advantage I can see to it is that people who consider
> joining Nova Roma can do so with their eyes open. If you see how
> ugly it is and still wish to be a member, at least you know what
> you're getting into.
>
> I have had my periods in which I considered leaving Nova Roma. I am
> really more interested in studying Roman culture, particularly its
> medical practices, than in recreating Roman culture in the modern
> world, with a system of laws, its religion, etc. This is the 21st
> century, not the era BC.
>
> I'd suggest you decide which you are more interested in--recreating
> Rome, with its religion and politics, or simply studying the
> culture. I honestly think the way NR is organized, it breeds
> politicking by its very nature--the yearly running for office, the
> concept of laws which have no legal weight outside of Nova Roma, etc.
>
> I sometimes ask myself what it is I love about Nova Roma--and then I
> know the answer. It's the fact that I have met some truly
> outstanding people here, who I deeply respect--They are not the ones
> who constantly bicker. I'm talkling about Marcus Audens, Maria
> Caeca, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus, Messalina Valeria, Aula Scholastica,
> and Stephanus Ullerius Venator. They are wonderful people who I hope
> you won't deny yourself the pleasure of befriending. There are others.
>
> There is a New Roman mailing list (part of NR), which I'm told is
> quite enjoyable to participate in and which I plan to join. You
> might find more congenial conversation there. I hope to. :)
>
> Best wishes to you in your exploration of Roman culture, in whatever
> direction it may take you.
>
> Paulla Corva
> Lictrix
> Past Rogatrix and Diribitrix Suffecta
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Roberts
> <gaiusantoniusflavius@...> wrote:
> >
> > Maybe I'm out of line, but I'm a new citizen of Nova Roma. I am in
> my 90 day probationary period. Does argueing like this in a public
> forum help you raise "taxes". I can say this has shed a new light on
> Nova Roma I wasn't aware of and one that will make me think twice
> about paying "taxes" when my probationary period ends and whether or
> not I even remain in Nova Roma if this is the kind of thing that
> goes on behind the scenes. Congratulations, you have officially made
> something fun and made a new member wonder if he made the wrong
> choice by joining.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Iulia Aquila Petronio Dextro Corvae Gaudialis Antonio Flavio Iunio Neroni omnibusque S.P.D.

In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@...> wrote:

>I think it is better to discover since the beginning of application >the sides of
>Nova Roma, the good and the less good, rather than imagine it is >Wonderland.

This is part of the process in when anyone enters a new culture, and it is an important part.
As for wonderland *smile* Nova Roma often has me wondering...


In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "aerdensrw" <aerdensrw@...> wrote:

> I'd suggest you decide which you are more interested in--recreating Rome, with its religion and politics, or simply studying the culture. I honestly think the way NR is organized, it breeds politicking by its very nature--the yearly running for office, the concept of laws which have no legal weight outside of Nova Roma, etc.
>
> I sometimes ask myself what it is I love about Nova Roma--and then I know the answer. It's the fact that I have met some truly outstanding people here, who I deeply respect--They are not the ones who constantly bicker. I'm talkling about Marcus Audens, Maria Caeca, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus, Messalina Valeria, Aula Scholastica, and Stephanus Ullerius Venator. They are wonderful people who I hope you won't deny yourself the pleasure of befriending. There are others.
>
> There is a New Roman mailing list (part of NR), which I'm told is quite enjoyable to participate in and which I plan to join. You might find more congenial conversation there. I hope to. :)
>
> Best wishes to you in your exploration of Roman culture, in whatever direction it may take you.

Nicely put and bears repeating(sorry I do not know the dative form for Gaudialis)...

In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Riku Demyx <rikudemyx@...> wrote:

> So in true NR style I'm going to open a new discussion. Actualy a few.
> 1. Good luck symbols. Does anyone keep pictures or amulets of the gorgons, phalloi, etc for good luck?
> 2.Patron deities. Who and why?
> 3. Gods who watch over modern inventions. Who of our pantheon would you say rules over fiber optic communications, the internet, etc?
> 4. This one I do only halfheartedly as I can see that it will cause a bit of unevenness for us. When you have a Laraium do you consider it sacred, do you consider the statues to be the deities themselves, or representations?So in true NR style I'm going to open a new >discussion. Actualy a few.

I look forward to new topics on new threads, they are most welcome.


Valéte optimé,

Julia

C. Petronius Iuliae Aquilae s.p.d.,

> Nicely put and bears repeating(sorry I do not know the dative form for Gaudialis)...

The dative is Gaudiali.

Optime vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
a. d. XIII Kal. Feb. P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.

Iulia Aquila Petronio Dextro sal,

I almost...almost... used "Gaudiali."
A fine example of what is good about Nova Roma,amice

Tibi gratias valeque,

Julia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@...> wrote:
>
> C. Petronius Iuliae Aquilae s.p.d.,
>
> > Nicely put and bears repeating(sorry I do not know the dative form for Gaudialis)...
>
> The dative is Gaudiali.
>
> Optime vale.
>
> C. Petronius Dexter
> Arcoiali scribebat
> a. d. XIII Kal. Feb. P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
>

Salve and welcome!
 
Corva gives you good advice. Please consider joining the New Roman list. Although it is not always this bad here, it is better for newbies over there. When I was a newbie, I got singed in a flame war. I survived; so will you. What can I tell you? Romans, we're a tough lot. LOL :P
That's why I suggested we create a new list call "The Arena", take all the more combative members and let them go at it in there. The less combative can be spectators. You can cheer on your favorite loud mouth and who knows? Maybe we could even have a little betting on the side! Er... I mean, all of it to benefit Nova Roma, of course! ;)
 
Vale bene,
 
Maxima Valeria Messallina


<<--- On Wed, 1/20/10, aerdensrw <aerdensrw@...> wrote:

P. Corva Gaudialis Gaio Antonio Flavio sal.

It's good to have you here, however long you might be with us. Welcome!

As for what you've laudably said--I've tried many times to suggest that the bickering on this list is damaging to us as an organization and to our recruitment efforts. I was pretty shocked when I first joined, because no other mailing list I belong to is as fractious as this one. It still shocks me.

The only advantage I can see to it is that people who consider joining Nova Roma can do so with their eyes open. If you see how ugly it is and still wish to be a member, at least you know what you're getting into.

I have had my periods in which I considered leaving Nova Roma. I am really more interested in studying Roman culture, particularly its medical practices, than in recreating Roman culture in the modern world, with a system of laws, its religion, etc. This is the 21st century, not the era BC.

I'd suggest you decide which you are more interested in--recreating Rome, with its religion and politics, or simply studying the culture. I honestly think the way NR is organized, it breeds politicking by its very nature--the yearly running for office, the concept of laws which have no legal weight outside of Nova Roma, etc.

I sometimes ask myself what it is I love about Nova Roma--and then I know the answer. It's the fact that I have met some truly outstanding people here, who I deeply respect--They are not the ones who constantly bicker. I'm talkling about Marcus Audens, Maria Caeca, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus, Messalina Valeria, Aula Scholastica, and Stephanus Ullerius Venator. They are wonderful people who I hope you won't deny yourself the pleasure of befriending. There are others.

There is a New Roman mailing list (part of NR), which I'm told is quite enjoyable to participate in and which I plan to join. You might find more congenial conversation there. I hope to. :)

Best wishes to you in your exploration of Roman culture, in whatever direction it may take you.

Paulla Corva
Lictrix
Past Rogatrix and Diribitrix Suffecta

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, Stephen Roberts <gaiusantoniusflavi us@....> wrote:

Maybe I'm out of line, but I'm a new citizen of Nova Roma. I am in my 90 day probationary period. Does argueing like this in a public forum help you raise "taxes". I can say this has shed a new light on Nova Roma I wasn't aware of and one that will make me think twice about paying "taxes" when my probationary period ends and whether or not I even remain in Nova Roma if this is the kind of thing that goes on behind the scenes. Congratulations, you have officially made something fun and made a new member wonder if he made the wrong choice by joining.>>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Caeca Messalinae omnibusque sal, Oh! I'll be the bookie ...ur, um ...facilitator of wagers, LOL! We could, perhaps, raise a rather fair sum for the Res Publica that way, LOL! Unfortunately, I rather think that some of the combatants would refuse to confine their activities to the forum ...so there would still be brawls in the forum, but then, from what I've read, brawls, and even riots occurred in the forum of Roma Antiqua, as well.
Vale et valete optime,
C. Maria Caeca, spectator

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete omnes,

The Newroman list exists to do several things; 1. It is a place where new and potential citizens can ask very basic questions, get explanations of what they read on the ML, and get to know those of us who frequent that list. It isn't wonderland ...it's more a cross between our welcome center and citizen preparation uh "place", and, hopefully, when new citizens do step into the main forum, and are ready to become active and productive, they will come with some basic knowledge and understanding, garnered in a supportive setting. Ideally, the list also allows new citizens to get to know one another, so that, again, when they enter the life of the Res Publica, they don't feel so alone and overwhelmed. I joined it immediately upon filing my application, learned a great deal there, and can honestly credit that group, in large part, for any positive and productive contributions I have, and hopefully will, be able to make here. I would very much like to see it become active again, and intend to do what I can to make it so.

Finally ...thank you for the kind words, Paula? I think ...it gets confusing when tying to figure out exactly who is saying what when reading quoted posts, because of my adaptive software, but at least I get *what* is being said, LOL!

Vale et valete bene,
C. Maria Caeca

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete Omnes,

For tonight's selection I offer Dio followed by a brief passage by Cicero.

I apologize that I am unable to post the selection from Dio's Roman History in Greek but it can easily be found online:

Cassius Dio
Roman History
Book XLVII: 3 - 6

"And while the people were still in this state of mind, those murders by proscription which Sulla had once indulged in were once more resorted to and the whole city was filled with corpses. Many were killed in their houses, many even in the streets and here and there in the fora and around the temples; the heads of the victims were once more set up on the rostra and their bodies either allowed to lie where they were, to be devoured by dogs and birds, or else cast into the river. Everything that had been done before in the days of Sulla occurred also at this time, except that only two white tablets were posted, one for the senators and one for the others. The reason for this I have not been able to learn from anyone else or to find out myself; for the only reason that might occur to one, namely, that fewer were to be put to death, is by no means true, since many more names were posted, owing to the fact that there were more persons making the lists. However, this circumstance did not cause these proscriptions to differ from the murders on the earlier occasion; since the posting of the names of the prominent citizens, not promiscuously along with those of the rabble, but separately, must surely have seemed a very absurd distinction to the men who were to be murdered on precisely the same terms. But over against this one difference there were not a few other conditions of a very distressing nature that fell to their lot, although Sulla's proscriptions, to all appearances, left no room for outdoing them. In Sulla's time, to be sure, the perpetrators had committed their shocking deeds on the spur of the moment, inasmuch as they were trying this sort of thing for the first time, and not as the result of deliberate planning, and hence in most cases they behaved less wickedly, since they were acting, not with malice aforethought, but as chance dictated; and the victims, encountering misfortunes which came upon them suddenly and had never before been heard of by them, found some alleviation in the unexpectedness of their sufferings. At this time, however, when men had either taken part themselves in all the former terrible deeds, or had beheld them, or were at any rate thoroughly acquainted with them from recent descriptions, and accordingly in all the time between, in the expectation of a recurrence of similar outrages, had, on the one hand, been devising many additional horrors, with the idea that they would inflict them, and, on the other hand, been conjuring up additional terrors with the idea that they would suffer them, the perpetrators resorted to the most unusual devices in their emulation of the outrages of yore and their consequent eagerness to introduce into their schemes, by their ingenuity, novel features of some sort; and the victims, reflecting upon all that they might suffer, underwent great tortures in their minds even before their bodies were put to torture, as if they were already in the very midst of their sufferings. Another reason for their faring worse on this occasion than before was that previously only the enemies of Sulla and of the leaders associated with him were destroyed, whereas among the friends of Sulla or of the other men no one perished, at least not at Sulla's bidding; so that, apart from the very wealthy, who can never be at peace on such occasions with the man more powerful than themselves, all the rest had no cause for fear. In this second series of murders, however, not only the men's enemies or the rich were being killed, but also their best friends, incredible as it may seem. For in general almost nobody had incurred the enmity of those men for any mere private cause, to such an extent as to be murdered by them; but it was their public relations and their changing of their allegiance from one political leader to another that had created for the Romans not only their friendships, but also their violent enemies. For everyone who had made common cause or coöperated with his neighbour in anything was regarded by all the rest in the light of an enemy. And thus it came about that the same persons had become friends of some one of the leaders and enemies of them all as a body, so that while privately each leader was merely taking vengeance upon those who had plotted against him, as a group they were destroying even their dearest friends. For in consequence of the dealings they had had with one another they kept a sort of reckoning of the items of "friend" and "enemy," and no one of their number could take vengeance on one of his own enemies, if he was a friend of one of the other two, without giving up some friend in return; and because of their resentment over what was past and their suspicion regarding the future they cared nothing about the saving of an associate as over against their vengeance upon an adversary, and therefore readily gave their friends in return. In consequence they were now offering up to each other their staunchest friends in return for their bitterest enemies, and getting their most implacable foes in return from their closest comrades, sometimes exchanging equal numbers and sometimes several for one or fewer for more, and carrying on their negotiations in general after the fashion of a market, particularly in over-bidding one another as at an auction."

*********************************************************************

"Historia magistra vitae" translated as "History is the teacher of life" is adapted from Cicero's De Oratore:

"Historia vero testis temporum, lux veritatis, vita memoriae, magistra vitae, nuntia vetustatis, qua voce alia nisi oratoris immortalitati commendatur?"
"History indeed is the evidence of the times, the light of truth, the life of memory, the teacher of life, messenger of antiquity: with what voice, unless the voice of the orator, can it be passed on into deathlessness."

Valete, bonam noctem vobis exopto,

Julia

Couldn't agree more. The majority of the activity on this list is motivated more by personal animosities than any crucial issues and a rare minority are actual informative posts. I would even go so far as to say that the vast majority of the bickering is fomented by a limited number of prominent Nova Romans.

These personality clashes between long-standing and high-ranking Nova Romans should be reserved for a much more private audience. It destroys the atmosphere of Nova Roma's Main List, and it calls into question the credibility and motives of many of our high-ranking officials. I mean, honestly, who hangs their dirty laundry over their welcome mat? We do, apparently.

The common rebuttal is that this is the 'Forum' of Nova Roma and all are free to say as they please, but let me ask my fellow cives this: Where do we read of senators regularly engaging in shouting-matches in the forums of Roma Antiqua? I certainly have yet to peruse that passage. What are we doing wrong to have created this atmosphere of blatant animosity between the people who are supposed to be our leaders?

I can appreciate that personalities will clash, but our leaders should not be constantly bickering in front of the majority of the civilian body like a gaggle of fishwives. A part of being a leader is to set an example (of Romanitas in this case). What goes on behind closed doors (or today - private email) is nobody's business, but in public I think that these catfights should be taboo - or outright banned as Lentulus suggests.

Vale
Regulus


From: Cn. Cornelius Lentulus
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 4:56 PM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: R: [Nova-Roma] Regarding this Interesting Development



Lentulus praetricibus et omnibus SPD

THIS IS EXACTLY why I asked the praetors of the republic several times to moderate the Main List much more rigorously, and to forbid political personalities.

Such things belong to another place, to a much more internal forum.

This forum is for recruitment, sharing infos about interesting Roman news, archeology, Latin literature, Roman history, talking about NR events, meetings, programs, and for a GENERAL discussion of NR news and politics, but "general" means that until the point when it remains purely informative and emotion-less.

It's high importance to hold such discussion in another list. Or does the UNICEF or the WWF disclose their internal political conflicts in a Yahoo mailing list open to everyone?

Valete!



--- Mer 20/1/10, Stephen Roberts <gaiusantoniusflavius@...> ha scritto:

Da: Stephen Roberts <gaiusantoniusflavius@...>
Oggetto: [Nova-Roma] Regarding this Interesting Development
A: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Data: Mercoledì 20 gennaio 2010, 19:57



Maybe I'm out of line, but I'm a new citizen of Nova Roma. I am in my 90 day probationary period. Does argueing like this in a public forum help you raise "taxes". I can say this has shed a new light on Nova Roma I wasn't aware of and one that will make me think twice about paying "taxes" when my probationary period ends and whether or not I even remain in Nova Roma if this is the kind of thing that goes on behind the scenes. Congratulations, you have officially made something fun and made a new member wonder if he made the wrong choice by joining.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lentulus Iuliae suae sal.

Thank you for sharing these photos!

What a wonderful family!  I only wish we took photos at our Saturnalia party in Pannonia. There were about more than 20 people present, not only Nova Romans, with Roman music, foods, wines, funny Roman games and a ritual to Father Saturn by a Nova Roman pontiff (me). Silly us that we did not make photos!!! Argh! ;-)

VALE and congrats!

Lentulus



--- Mar 19/1/10, luciaiuliaaquila <dis_pensible@...> ha scritto:

Da: luciaiuliaaquila <dis_pensible@...>
Oggetto: [Nova-Roma] Saturnalia 2009 Revisited
A: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Data: Martedì 19 gennaio 2010, 21:58







 











Salvete Omnes,



Well it *only* took one month to gather and post these - I am sure there

are more photos out there but the memories of those attending far

outnumber any images. This celebration, the ritual, the feast, planned

through the Temple of Venus Genetrix, gave the gift of camaraderie and a

sense of belonging to those attendees of like alternate beliefs in a

safe sanctuary. A few of the teenagers confided in me that they no

longer feel like such outcasts - we all hope that the very young ones

will be insulated against this as we strive to make them confident in

their beliefs. As I mentioned to other cultores, I think Mother Venus

would approve of our celebration and the benefits we, her children,

enjoyed from so humble a gathering.



Saturnalia 2009

<http://www.flickr com/photos/ l_j_a/sets/ 7215762324051918 4/>



Here is our wonderful Mock King:



Saturnalia's Mock King <http://www.flickr com/photos/ l_j_a/4286947825 />



More written info is riddled throughout the photostream. Enjoy!



Io! Saturnalia!



Valete optime in pace Veneris,



Julia



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica Stephano quiritibus bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
>
>
> Maybe I'm out of line, but I'm a new citizen of Nova Roma. I am in my 90 day
> probationary period.
>
> ATS: Welcome to Nova Roma! You are not at all out of line, which is one
> reason why I, in may capacity as praetorian scriba, approved your post.
>
>
> Does argueing like this in a public forum help you raise "taxes".
>
> ATS: Probably not, but arguing in this forum is hardly unknown.
>
> I can say this has shed a new light on Nova Roma I wasn't aware of and one
> that will make me think twice about paying "taxes" when my probationary period
> ends and whether or not I even remain in Nova Roma if this is the kind of
> thing that goes on behind the scenes.
>
> ATS: Unfortunately, we, like most organizations, have members who are
> contentious and thrive on controversy. Some seem to think that their actions
> should have no consequences, and that only their political opponents deserve
> any sanctions. Some seem to suffer from paranoia, and interpret anything they
> don¹t like as stemming from political or religious motives. It happens that
> two of the more recent loudmouths and some buddies of theirs (and yes, they
> are loudmouths) belong to the same faction, though one used to be in the other
> main party, and both do not practice the Roman religion (neither do a lot of
> us, including yours truly), so in their minds, all is a conspiracy against
> their faction and/or their monotheistic religion. As one of my colleagues
> said in another context, opus est anxiolyticis; they need anxiety-reducing
> medications. Yes, it¹s tiresome, for these guys and others cannot accept that
> being playground bullies or using the vocabulary and discussion methodology of
> a junior high boys¹ locker room does not befit grown adults. Unfortunately,
> we cannot prevent this sort of thing when it occurs among long-time and
> unmoderated members, but yes, it does drive prospective citizens away.
>
>
> Congratulations, you have officially made something fun and made a new member
> wonder if he made the wrong choice by joining.
>
> ATS: Some of us have wondered about that, too...and decided to stay.
> When I was a new citizen, at a time when there was no probationary period or
> citizenship test, and no NewRoman list to help newcomers, I was the target of
> what I later learnt was called a flame war, for I had the unmitigated gall (in
> the opinion of some) to endorse a well-qualified candidate for election to
> consul. Trouble is, he did not practice the Roman Religion and belonged to
> the opposite faction from the flame-throwers, whereas one of the two other
> candidates belonged to the flame-thrower faction and both practiced the Roman
> Religion. Too, I was a newcomer, and at least one of this faction has (as I
> have been informed) a reputation for counting coup when new citizens, or at
> least those who do not agree with them and their tactics, decide to leave. On
> top of this, I am a classicist, a highly educated and by no means stupid
> woman, yet another threat, especially to those in this group who think women
> are inferior and should not even be allowed to vote in NR. Unfortunately for
> them, their attacks did not dislodge me, though I certainly had some second
> thoughts about Nova Roma while this was going on. I went on to hold some
> apparitorships, and then magistracies, and am in the Senate...whether or not
> this group likes that. I also happen to teach Latin online to a number of
> students, many of whom seem to appreciate their free instruction.
>
> Every time that a good person leaves Nova Roma, every time that a good
> magistrate leaves or disappears, the bad people win, and give each other high
> fives. If you don¹t like what you see in Nova Roma, the solution is not to
> run away...it is to stay and work against this nonsense. I would advise you
> to stick with it, warts and all; see what is behind this puerile behavior, and
> do what you have already done so well...speak out against it. An outside
> perspective on these matters might just put the kibosh on them. Macte
> virtúte!
>
> Vale.
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus Quiritibus et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit: Invenietis omnia prospera evenisse sequentibus Deos, adversa spernentibus

Hodie est ante diem XII Kalendas Februarias; haec dies comitialis est: ludi Palatini

Felices natalis Tiberi Galeri !

Today is the birthday of Senator Censorius Ti. Galerius Paulus.


AUC 787 / 14 CE: Ludi Augustales (Palatini)

Upon the death of Augustus, his wife Livia and her son Tiberius vowed funerary games. A private theater was set up in front of the palace on the Palatine and for three days theatrical performances were provided for invited guests alone. Only the highest members of the Augustan regime, and their families, were invited. (Dio Cassius 56.46; 59.16; Tacitus, Annales 1.73). At the death of Caligua a fourth day (24 Jan.) was added in that year alone. (To celebrate his demise?) Later, in the Calendar of Philocalus that dates from 354 CE, the Ludi Palatini, as they were called, are shown as falling on 17 –19 January.

The original Ludi Augustales were performed in conjunction with the sacrifices offered on 17 Jan. to Augustus on the ara Numinus Augusti by members of the Quattor Summa Collegia. That is, the pontifices, augures, quindecemviri sacris faciundis, and septemviri epulones. Plinius mentions a special offering made to Augustus by his wife Iulia Augusta (Livia):

"I, myself, once saw in the temple of the Palatium, which his wife Augusta (Livia) dedicated to her husband the late emperor Augustus, a root of cinnamon of great weight, placed in a patera of gold: from it drops used to distil every year, which congealed in hard grains. It remained there until the temple was accidentally destroyed by fire." ~ Plinius Secunda, Historia Naturalis 12.42


AUC 816 / 63 CE: Birth of Claudia, daughter of Nero.

AUC 422 / 331 BCE: Patrician poisonings

"This year gained an evil notoriety, either through the unhealthy weather or through human guilt. I would gladly believe-and the authorities are not unanimous on the point-that it is a false story which states that those whose deaths made the year notorious for pestilence were really carried off by poison. I shall, however, relate the matter as it has been handed down to avoid any appearance of impugning the credit of our authorities. The foremost men in the State were being attacked by the same malady, and in almost every case with the same fatal results. A maid-servant went to Q. Fabius Maximus, one of the curule aediles, and promised to reveal the cause of the public mischief if the government would guarantee her against any danger in which her discovery might involve her. Fabius at once brought the matter to the notice of the consuls and they referred it to the senate, who authorised the promise of immunity to be given. She then disclosed the fact that the State was suffering through the crimes of certain women; those poisons were concocted by Roman matrons, and if they would follow her at once she promised that they should catch the poisoners in the act. They followed their informant and actually found some women compounding poisonous drugs and some poisons already made up. These latter were brought into the Forum, and as many as twenty matrons, at whose houses they had been seized, were brought up by the magistrates' officers. Two of them, Cornelia and Sergia, both members of patrician houses, contended that the drugs were medicinal preparations. The maid-servant, when confronted with them, told them to drink some that they might prove she had given false evidence. They were allowed time to consult as to what they would do, and the bystanders were ordered to retire that they might take counsel with the other matrons. They all consented to drink the drugs, and after doing so fell victims to their own criminal designs. Their attendants were instantly arrested, and denounced a large number of matrons as being guilty of the same offence, out of whom a hundred and seventy were found guilty. Up to that time there had never been a charge of poison investigated in Rome. The whole incident was regarded as a portent, and thought to be an act of madness rather than deliberate wickedness. In consequence of the universal alarm created, it was decided to follow the precedent recorded in the annals. During the secessions of the plebs in the old days a nail had been driven in by the Dictator, and by this act of expiation men's minds, disordered by civil strife, had been restored to sanity. A resolution was passed accordingly, that a Dictator should be appointed to drive in the nail. Cnaeus Quinctilius was appointed and named L. Valerius as his Master of the Horse. After the nail was driven in they resigned office." ~ Titus Livius 8.18

Livy does not mention this ceremony of the hammering of the nail elsewhere in connection with the plebeian secessions. Instead, at 7.3, he mentioned how Marcus Horatius performed it at the beginning of the Republic, and how it was then reintroduced in 363 BCE in response to a plague.


The thought of the day is from Seneca, On Providence 5:

"Immortal Gods," he said, "I have this one complaint to make against You, that You did not earlier make known Your will to me; for I should have reached the sooner that condition in which, after being summoned, I now am. Do You wish to take my children? - it was for You that I fathered them. Do You wish to take some member of my body? - take it; no great thing am I offering You; very soon I shall leave the whole. Do You wish to take my life? - why not? I shall make no protest against Your taking back what once You gave. With my free consent You shall have whatever You may ask of me. What, then, is my trouble? I should have preferred to offer than to relinquish. What was the need to take by force? You might have had it as a gift. Yet even now You will not take it by force, because nothing can be wrenched away from a man unless he withholds it."

Tribuna Plebis Maxima Valeria Messallina omnibus S.P.D.
 
Salvete, Citizens of Nova Roma

The auspicia having been taken by Publius Memmius Albucius and found to be propitious, Consul Albucius has called the Senate to order.

The Senate has been called into session today at 14.00 hours, Rome time (8:00 a.m. EST), a.d. XII Kal. Feb. (January 21) 2763,  with discussions to continue until sunset at 17.18 hours, Rome time (11:18 a.m. EST) on a.d. VI Kal. Feb. (January 27) 2763.

Voting on the Agenda will begin at 16:30 hours, Rome time (10:30 a.m. EST) a.d. VIII Kal. Feb. (January 25) 2763 and conclude at 16:30 hours, Rome time, (10:30 a.m. EST) a.d. VI Kal. Feb. (January 27) 2763.


For the information of the citizens of Nova Roma, here is a brief outline of the
Senate's agenda:

ITEM I – Current session of the Collegium Pontificum:



Regards the information the Senate requires from the Pontifex Maximus on the Collegium Pontificum's current session's general agenda and, in particular, the two points written in its agenda concerning the possible declaration of impietas against Senatores G. Equitius Cato and L. Cornelius Sulla Felix, its factual and legal base and possible consequences.
 

ITEM II – Information on the budget procedure:


The Consuls ask the Senate for proposals, requests and recommendations for this year's budget.
 
 
ITEM III – Information on the writing of by-laws for NR Inc. non-profit making corporation: 


To create a document of by-laws in conformity with incorporations laws which shall be separate from the constitution of NR.
 
 
ITEM IV - Discussion of the best date for the annual entry into office of the Tribunes:


Changes either the date of entry into office by the Tribunes of the Plebs or changes the constitution specific only to the date of entry into office by said Tribunes.
 
 
ITEM V – Emergency fund : confirmation and, if confirmed, application to Haïti current situation (information by Cur. Aer. And former coss. MCC and MIS + vote):


Submits three alternative proposals for either confirmation as is, deletion of, or adaptation for other specific goals of NR's Emergency Fund.
 
 
ITEM VI  – SC de ratione senatus – modification - members of the Senate who may have a personal interest in a question submitted to discussion and vote (discussion + vote):


Proposal that any member of the Senate who may have a personal interest in any question submitted for discussion and voting by the Senate, may not take part in such discussion and voting.
 
 
ITEM VII – Provinces – Definition and delineation – European provinces (discussion + vote):


Proposes changes to some of NR's European provinces.
 
 
Citizens may have noticed that the last two items have been reversed in order from Consul Albucius's previous announcement to this list. Consul Albucius did inform me of these changes earlier today.

Valete bene in pace Deorum,

Maxima Valeria Messallina
Tribuna Plebis




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Facilitator of wagers. LOL I love it! You're hired. ;P

--- On Wed, 1/20/10, C.Maria Caeca <c.mariacaeca@...> wrote:

Caeca Messalinae omnibusque sal,
Oh! I'll be the bookie ...ur, um ...facilitator of wagers, LOL! We could, perhaps, raise a rather fair sum for the Res Publica that way, LOL! Unfortunately, I rather think that some of the combatants would refuse to confine their activities to the forum ...so there would still be brawls in the forum, but then, from what I've read, brawls, and even riots occurred in the forum of Roma Antiqua, as well.
Vale et valete optime,
C. Maria Caeca, spectator





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well said, Tullia!

<<--- On Thu, 1/21/10, A. Tullia Scholastica <fororom@...> wrote:

A. Tullia Scholastica Stephano quiritibus bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
 
<<Maybe I'm out of line, but I'm a new citizen of Nova Roma. I am in my 90 day
probationary period.>>
 
ATS: Welcome to Nova Roma! You are not at all out of line, which is one
reason why I, in may capacity as praetorian scriba, approved your post.
 
<< Does argueing like this in a public forum help you raise "taxes".>>
 
ATS: Probably not, but arguing in this forum is hardly unknown.
 
<< I can say this has shed a new light on Nova Roma I wasn't aware of and one
that will make me think twice about paying "taxes" when my probationary period
ends and whether or not I even remain in Nova Roma if this is the kind of
thing that goes on behind the scenes.>>
 
ATS: Unfortunately, we, like most organizations, have members who are
contentious and thrive on controversy. Some seem to think that their actions
should have no consequences, and that only their political opponents deserve
any sanctions. Some seem to suffer from paranoia, and interpret anything they
don¹t like as stemming from political or religious motives. It happens that
two of the more recent loudmouths and some buddies of theirs (and yes, they
are loudmouths) belong to the same faction, though one used to be in the other
main party, and both do not practice the Roman religion (neither do a lot of
us, including yours truly), so in their minds, all is a conspiracy against
their faction and/or their monotheistic religion. As one of my colleagues
said in another context, opus est anxiolyticis; they need anxiety-reducing
medications. Yes, it¹s tiresome, for these guys and others cannot accept that
being playground bullies or using the vocabulary and discussion methodology of
a junior high boys¹ locker room does not befit grown adults. Unfortunately,
we cannot prevent this sort of thing when it occurs among long-time and
unmoderated members, but yes, it does drive prospective citizens away. 
 
<<Congratulations, you have officially made something fun and made a new member
wonder if he made the wrong choice by joining.>>
 
ATS: Some of us have wondered about that, too...and decided to stay.
When I was a new citizen, at a time when there was no probationary period or
citizenship test, and no NewRoman list to help newcomers, I was the target of
what I later learnt was called a flame war, for I had the unmitigated gall (in
the opinion of some) to endorse a well-qualified candidate for election to
consul. Trouble is, he did not practice the Roman Religion and belonged to
the opposite faction from the flame-throwers, whereas one of the two other
candidates belonged to the flame-thrower faction and both practiced the Roman
Religion. Too, I was a newcomer, and at least one of this faction has (as I
have been informed) a reputation for counting coup when new citizens, or at
least those who do not agree with them and their tactics, decide to leave. On
top of this, I am a classicist, a highly educated and by no means stupid
woman, yet another threat, especially to those in this group who think women
are inferior and should not even be allowed to vote in NR. Unfortunately for
them, their attacks did not dislodge me, though I certainly had some second
thoughts about Nova Roma while this was going on. I went on to hold some
apparitorships, and then magistracies, and am in the Senate...whether or not
this group likes that. I also happen to teach Latin online to a number of
students, many of whom seem to appreciate their free instruction.
 
Every time that a good person leaves Nova Roma, every time that a good
magistrate leaves or disappears, the bad people win, and give each other high
fives. If you don¹t like what you see in Nova Roma, the solution is not to
run away...it is to stay and work against this nonsense. I would advise you
to stick with it, warts and all; see what is behind this puerile behavior, and
do what you have already done so well...speak out against it. An outside
perspective on these matters might just put the kibosh on them. Macte
virtúte! 
 
Vale.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cato omnibus in foro SPD

Oh no, the ancient Romans certainly didn't have fights in public in the Forum. Nope, didn't happen.

As long as you ignore writers like... oh... Livy, Polybius, Cassius Dio, Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Lucan, Cicero, Plutarch, Appian, Tacitus, Apollodorus, Sallust, Velleius Paterculus...but those minor figures aside, it's clear that the ancients were absolutely proto-Victorian in their public manners and speech.

You might also want to have clued in Caesar as he lay dying on the floor of the Senate House. He might have been surprised to hear it.

Valete,

Cato

Caesar didn't die on the floor. He was stabbed sitting up and died sitting in his chair.

--- On Thu, 1/21/10, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:


From: Cato <catoinnyc@...>
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Regarding this Interesting Development
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, January 21, 2010, 9:20 AM


 



Cato omnibus in foro SPD

Oh no, the ancient Romans certainly didn't have fights in public in the Forum. Nope, didn't happen.

As long as you ignore writers like... oh... Livy, Polybius, Cassius Dio, Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Lucan, Cicero, Plutarch, Appian, Tacitus, Apollodorus, Sallust, Velleius Paterculus.. .but those minor figures aside, it's clear that the ancients were absolutely proto-Victorian in their public manners and speech.

You might also want to have clued in Caesar as he lay dying on the floor of the Senate House. He might have been surprised to hear it.

Valete,

Cato











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thank you for this.
 
Maxima Valeria Messallina


<<--- On Tue, 1/19/10, A. Tullia Scholastica <fororom@...> wrote:

A. Tullia Scholastica quiritibus bonae voluntatis, praesertim M. Minucio
Audenti Neronique, S.P.D.

His diebus, sicut saepius, hoc et in aliis foro vidimus aliquos cives
interpellantes et disputantes de rebus eis omnino partimve ignotis. Suá
sententiá, si in Senatu qui quondam senatores erant nunc non sunt, est dolo
malo religionis causá; si qui foedissima probra de virgine Vestali jaciebant
impietatis arguuntur, iterum dolo malo religionis rei publicae factionis
causá est. Non ita est. Qui se malé, immo pessimé, gerunt poenas dare
exspectare debent, et censu nondum acto, in Senatum aliquem legere nondum
possumus.

Lately, as all too often, we have seen certain citizens in this and
other fora discussing and quarreling about matters wholly or partly unknown
to them. In their opinion, if those who were once senatores are not
senators now, it is with malice aforethought on account of religion; if
those who hurled the most repugnant insults about our Vestal are criticized
for impiety, it is again malicious and because of religion or politics.
This is not true. Those who behave badly, indeed most unacceptably, should
expect to pay the price. As for the other matter, since the census has not
yet been performed, and we cannot yet adlect anyone to the Senate.

I shall add to other comments here that there is no obvious evil intent
in the temporary exclusion of M. Minucius Audens from the Senate any more
than in the delays in accepting new citizenship applications due to the
server transfer, and that there does not appear to be any political
motivation for any charges against the parties who seem to think that they
are on some sort of hit list. When one violates the norms of society, one
should expect that normal people will find fault with this; when one makes
gross and disgusting sexual comments about a priestess sworn to chastity,
one should expect that others will find this less than amusing. It is not
appropriate to insult the clergy of another¹s faith, and that, too, for no
good reason; no one should expect that the practitioners of the faith
concerned might fail to contemplate sanctions. Surely they are
well-deserved in this case. Moreover, when one makes a habit of
transferring posts from assorted private lists to another for the purpose of
entertaining the members thereof (or encouraging others to do this), and
that, too, while forbidding anyone from doing the same from the list in
question, one is on tenuous moral ground even without the appalling comments
directed at others, including members of the Religio Romana clergy. Nero,
those who know what was said know how vile this was; Senatori Audens, while
your temporary exile from the curia rankles you, I seriously doubt that it
stems from animosity toward you or your faith, though too many here have a
penchant for insulting the latter, if not the former.

Valete.>>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve to All,

If I may thank each of you that took the time to respond to my posting with kindness and patience. I'm not one to get into a lot of public debates on an internet forum, but I felt rather disturbed by some of what I was reading. If I can burden you all just a little longer with a few observations, points, explanations, etc... I am a lover of Roman history, society, and knowledge. I fully enjoy all things Roman. My wife does not share the interest and neither do the majority of those I personally know. In pursuit of finding others who share this passion, I found Nova Roma. After reading reviews from several outsiders, I thought this may be a good fit, so I applied for citizenship. I do find re-creating Rome to be an exciting prospect, and would like to be more familiar with all that Nova Roma is so I can participate and contribute. That said, not all that I read was positive, but as I've told some, I decided to reserve judgement and see what Nova Roma was
about for myself. I have truely enjoyed the daily ML, but some of what has been posted lately concerned me enough to speak out. As a new member, seeing heated aggressive allocations thrown around does scare when you are thinking about donating a portion of your salary to a group you have never met in person. For this reason, as a current citizen, I think it's a disservice to Nova Roma to have this kind of arguements out in public for any to see. It discourages, in my opinion, the want to donate time and money to the cause, especially when you're still just learning what all Nova Roma is and can be. I believe we can all disagree, as disagreements and compromise is what made Rome and our current world the great place it can be. I also believe once earnest respectful debate has given way to vinumous arugements it can be detrimental to your long term goals.

Again, thanks to all who have spoken up. I can't thank you enough. I will hang around longer as I've committed myself to do learn more about Nova Roma and what kind of society it is and can be.

Vale,




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cato Valeriae Messalinae sal.

"And it is said by some writers that although Caesar defended himself against
the rest and darted this way and that and cried aloud, when he saw that Brutus
had drawn his dagger, he pulled his toga down over his head and sank, either by
chance or because pushed there by his murderers, against the pedestal on which
the statue of Pompey stood. And the pedestal was drenched with his blood, so
that one might have thought that Pompey himself was presiding over this
vengeance upon his enemy, who now lay prostrate at his feet, quivering from a
multitude of wounds." - Plutarch, "Lives", Caesar 12-13

Although Seutonius says he was *attacked* in his seat, he then writes:

"All the conspirators made off, and he lay there lifeless for some time, until
finally three common slaves put him on a litter and carried him home, with one
arm hanging down."

Nicolaus of Damascus wrote:

"Under the mass of wounds, he fell at the foot of Pompey's statue. Everyone
wanted to seem to have had some part in the murder, and there was not one of
them who failed to strike his body as it lay there, until, wounded thirty-five
times, he breathed his last."

Vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Maxima Valeria Messallina <maximavaleriamessallina@...> wrote:
>
> Caesar didn't die on the floor. He was stabbed sitting up and died sitting in his chair.
>
>
> --- On Thu, 1/21/10, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: Cato <catoinnyc@...>
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Regarding this Interesting Development
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thursday, January 21, 2010, 9:20 AM
>
>
>  
>
>
>
> Cato omnibus in foro SPD
>
> Oh no, the ancient Romans certainly didn't have fights in public in the Forum. Nope, didn't happen.
>
> As long as you ignore writers like... oh... Livy, Polybius, Cassius Dio, Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Lucan, Cicero, Plutarch, Appian, Tacitus, Apollodorus, Sallust, Velleius Paterculus.. .but those minor figures aside, it's clear that the ancients were absolutely proto-Victorian in their public manners and speech.
>
> You might also want to have clued in Caesar as he lay dying on the floor of the Senate House. He might have been surprised to hear it.
>
> Valete,
>
> Cato
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Not in the book I read by Adrain Keith Goldsworthy, the British scholar, "Caesar: Life of a Colossus". Fascinating read. I highly recommend to everyone.
 
MVM
 
 

--- On Thu, 1/21/10, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:


From: Cato <catoinnyc@...>
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Regarding this Interesting Development
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, January 21, 2010, 11:03 AM


 



Cato Valeriae Messalinae sal.

"And it is said by some writers that although Caesar defended himself against the rest and darted this way and that and cried aloud, when he saw that Brutus had drawn his dagger, he pulled his toga down over his head and sank, either by chance or because pushed there by his murderers, against the pedestal on which the statue of Pompey stood. And the pedestal was drenched with his blood, so that one might have thought that Pompey himself was presiding over this vengeance upon his enemy, who now lay prostrate at his feet, quivering from a multitude of wounds." - Plutarch, "Lives", Caesar 12-13

Although Seutonius says he was *attacked* in his seat, he then writes:

"All the conspirators made off, and he lay there lifeless for some time, until finally three common slaves put him on a litter and carried him home, with one arm hanging down."

Nicolaus of dsamascus wrote:

"Under the mass of wounds, he fell at the foot of Pompey's statue. Everyone wanted to seem to have had some part in the murder, and there was not one of them who failed to strike his body as it lay there, until, wounded thirty-five times, he breathed his last."

Vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, Maxima Valeria Messallina <maximavaleriamessa llina@... > wrote:
>
> Caesar didn't die on the floor. He was stabbed sitting up and died sitting in his chair.
>
>
> --- On Thu, 1/21/10, Cato <catoinnyc@. ..> wrote:
>
>
> From: Cato <catoinnyc@. ..>
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Regarding this Interesting Development
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com
> Date: Thursday, January 21, 2010, 9:20 AM
>
>
>  
>
>
>
> Cato omnibus in foro SPD
>
> Oh no, the ancient Romans certainly didn't have fights in public in the Forum. Nope, didn't happen.
>
> As long as you ignore writers like... oh... Livy, Polybius, Cassius Dio, Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Lucan, Cicero, Plutarch, Appian, Tacitus, Apollodorus, Sallust, Velleius Paterculus.. .but those minor figures aside, it's clear that the ancients were absolutely proto-Victorian in their public manners and speech.
>
> You might also want to have clued in Caesar as he lay dying on the floor of the Senate House. He might have been surprised to hear it.
>
> Valete,
>
> Cato
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete,
as far as I know Caesar died in the current Largo Argentina, under the stop
of tram number 8, which was then just outside the entrance of Pompey's
theatre, where the senate session had been held. I don't think there was a
chair outside, though there might have been a bench. Hovever, the location
is at least a 15 minutes walk from the forum.

Valete,
Livia

----- Original Message -----
From: "Maxima Valeria Messallina" <maximavaleriamessallina@...>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 6:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Regarding this Interesting Development


Caesar didn't die on the floor. He was stabbed sitting up and died sitting
in his chair.


--- On Thu, 1/21/10, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:


From: Cato <catoinnyc@...>
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Regarding this Interesting Development
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, January 21, 2010, 9:20 AM






Cato omnibus in foro SPD

Oh no, the ancient Romans certainly didn't have fights in public in the
Forum. Nope, didn't happen.

As long as you ignore writers like... oh... Livy, Polybius, Cassius Dio,
Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Lucan, Cicero, Plutarch, Appian, Tacitus,
Apollodorus, Sallust, Velleius Paterculus.. .but those minor figures aside,
it's clear that the ancients were absolutely proto-Victorian in their public
manners and speech.

You might also want to have clued in Caesar as he lay dying on the floor of
the Senate House. He might have been surprised to hear it.

Valete,

Cato











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete Romans,



Boy does time fly. Today is my eighth anniversary as a citizen of Nova Roma!!!



Happy anniversary!!!! To me



There have been some great times and some not so great times but it has all been interesting.



Thanks to all for the memories.



Valete



Ti. Galerius Paulinus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Ti Galeri,

Not sure is you are a glutton for punishment or if I should congratulate you:) Just teasing.

Congratulations on your 8th anniversary as a citizen of Nova Roma!

Vale optime,

Julia

SALVE!
 
Congratulations, amice!
 
VALE,
T. Iulius Sabinus





"Every individual is the architect of his own fortune" - Appius Claudius

--- On Thu, 1/21/10, Timothy or Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@...> wrote:


From: Timothy or Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@...>
Subject: [Nova-Roma] 8th Anniversary
To: "Nova-Roma" <nova-roma@yahoogroups.com>, "BackAlley" <backalley@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Thursday, January 21, 2010, 10:05 PM


 





Salvete Romans,

Boy does time fly. Today is my eighth anniversary as a citizen of Nova Roma!!!

Happy anniversary! !!! To me

There have been some great times and some not so great times but it has all been interesting.

Thanks to all for the memories.

Valete

Ti. Galerius Paulinus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

T.Flavius Aquila Ti.Galeri Paulino salutem plurimam dicit

Congratulations and thank you for all of your work done for our Republic Nova Roma !

I wish all citizens would follow your example and stay within Nova Roma for such a long time and not to give up in difficult times.

vale bene,
T.Flavius Aquila




________________________________
Von: Timothy or Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@...>
An: Nova-Roma <nova-roma@yahoogroups.com>; BackAlley <backalley@yahoogroups.com>
Gesendet: Donnerstag, den 21. Januar 2010, 21:05:23 Uhr
Betreff: [Nova-Roma] 8th Anniversary

 


Salvete Romans,

Boy does time fly. Today is my eighth anniversary as a citizen of Nova Roma!!!

Happy anniversary! !!! To me

There have been some great times and some not so great times but it has all been interesting.

Thanks to all for the memories.

Valete

Ti. Galerius Paulinus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Sie sind Spam leid? Yahoo! Mail verfügt über einen herausragenden Schutz gegen Massenmails.
http://mail.yahoo.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete,

Now see... this is a subject that should be taken to another thread, albeit with a much better subject line then the one I hastily chose, and discussed in a mature rational fashion. Cato used some very good examples, Messalina suggested a book and Livia proved that she is definitely the one a visitor to Rome wants as a tour guide.
It just takes a little effort on everyone's part.
I am finding it very interesting and I reeeaaallly like when sources are cited because then our fellow cives can do more research on their own.
This deserves a thread of its own.

Valete,

Julia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Livia Plauta" <livia.plauta@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete,
> as far as I know Caesar died in the current Largo Argentina, under the stop
> of tram number 8, which was then just outside the entrance of Pompey's
> theatre, where the senate session had been held. I don't think there was a
> chair outside, though there might have been a bench. Hovever, the location
> is at least a 15 minutes walk from the forum.
>
> Valete,
> Livia
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Maxima Valeria Messallina" <maximavaleriamessallina@...>
> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 6:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Regarding this Interesting Development
>
>
> Caesar didn't die on the floor. He was stabbed sitting up and died sitting
> in his chair.
>
>
> --- On Thu, 1/21/10, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: Cato <catoinnyc@...>
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Regarding this Interesting Development
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thursday, January 21, 2010, 9:20 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Cato omnibus in foro SPD
>
> Oh no, the ancient Romans certainly didn't have fights in public in the
> Forum. Nope, didn't happen.
>
> As long as you ignore writers like... oh... Livy, Polybius, Cassius Dio,
> Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Lucan, Cicero, Plutarch, Appian, Tacitus,
> Apollodorus, Sallust, Velleius Paterculus.. .but those minor figures aside,
> it's clear that the ancients were absolutely proto-Victorian in their public
> manners and speech.
>
> You might also want to have clued in Caesar as he lay dying on the floor of
> the Senate House. He might have been surprised to hear it.
>
> Valete,
>
> Cato
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Salve Gai Antoni,

You are so very welcome and I am glad you have decided to stay:)
I encourage you, as a new citizen, to please begin a thread on a subject matter you would like to know more about. This will make you an important and integral part of the solution to a problem you so very astutely pointed out. In addition, by your example, other new members may follow and long time members will be reminded of one or several reasons why they became citizens of Nova Roma.
Looking forward to seeing more of you and please feel free to contact me if I can be of any further help.

Vale optime,

Julia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Roberts <gaiusantoniusflavius@...> wrote:
>
> Salve to All,
>
> If I may thank each of you that took the time to respond to my posting with kindness and patience. I'm not one to get into a lot of public debates on an internet forum, but I felt rather disturbed by some of what I was reading. If I can burden you all just a little longer with a few observations, points, explanations, etc... I am a lover of Roman history, society, and knowledge. I fully enjoy all things Roman. My wife does not share the interest and neither do the majority of those I personally know. In pursuit of finding others who share this passion, I found Nova Roma. After reading reviews from several outsiders, I thought this may be a good fit, so I applied for citizenship. I do find re-creating Rome to be an exciting prospect, and would like to be more familiar with all that Nova Roma is so I can participate and contribute. That said, not all that I read was positive, but as I've told some, I decided to reserve judgement and see what Nova Roma was
> about for myself. I have truely enjoyed the daily ML, but some of what has been posted lately concerned me enough to speak out. As a new member, seeing heated aggressive allocations thrown around does scare when you are thinking about donating a portion of your salary to a group you have never met in person. For this reason, as a current citizen, I think it's a disservice to Nova Roma to have this kind of arguements out in public for any to see. It discourages, in my opinion, the want to donate time and money to the cause, especially when you're still just learning what all Nova Roma is and can be. I believe we can all disagree, as disagreements and compromise is what made Rome and our current world the great place it can be. I also believe once earnest respectful debate has given way to vinumous arugements it can be detrimental to your long term goals.
>
> Again, thanks to all who have spoken up. I can't thank you enough. I will hang around longer as I've committed myself to do learn more about Nova Roma and what kind of society it is and can be.
>
> Vale,
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Iulia Catoni omnibusque S.P.D.

RE: behavior in the forum in Ancient Rome:

In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@...> wrote:

>[...]Livy, Polybius, Cassius Dio, Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Lucan, >Cicero, Plutarch, Appian, Tacitus, Apollodorus, Sallust, Velleius >Paterculus...but those minor figures aside, it's clear that the >ancients were absolutely proto-Victorian in their public manners and >speech.

This also would make an excellent new thread and an issue that comes up time after time. We have so many knowledgeable citizens that someone can create an extremely informative thread incorporating excerpts from the ancients and even providing the original Latin if available.
A lot of excellent potential discussions can begin from less than pleasant exchanges - do this for the respublica and her citizens - this is part of being an effective and productive member of Nova Roma. Remember the lessons from history that have demonstrate the good changes that can come from an otherwise unpleasant occurence.

Cúrá(te) ut valeá(ti)s optimé!

Julia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> Cato omnibus in foro SPD
>
> Oh no, the ancient Romans certainly didn't have fights in public in the Forum. Nope, didn't happen.
>
> As long as you ignore writers like... oh... Livy, Polybius, Cassius Dio, Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Lucan, Cicero, Plutarch, Appian, Tacitus, Apollodorus, Sallust, Velleius Paterculus...but those minor figures aside, it's clear that the ancients were absolutely proto-Victorian in their public manners and speech.
>
> You might also want to have clued in Caesar as he lay dying on the floor of the Senate House. He might have been surprised to hear it.
>
> Valete,
>
> Cato
>

Salvete;
this is a problem with a one-sided approach. Roman senators were political,they were also literary and busy with religious duties: as almost all senators were pontiffs, augurs, flamens and had large agricultural estates or studied the law (seriously)or philosophy or collected art. or were antiquarians like Varro.

we see a very one-sided behavior "people fought in the forum" well that did happen but not everyday!

The Roman elite were highly educated and well travelled and let's see some of that:)
vale
Maior

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "luciaiuliaaquila" <dis_pensible@...> wrote:
>
> Iulia Catoni omnibusque S.P.D.
>
> RE: behavior in the forum in Ancient Rome:
>
> In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> >[...]Livy, Polybius, Cassius Dio, Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Lucan, >Cicero, Plutarch, Appian, Tacitus, Apollodorus, Sallust, Velleius >Paterculus...but those minor figures aside, it's clear that the >ancients were absolutely proto-Victorian in their public manners and >speech.
>
> This also would make an excellent new thread and an issue that comes up time after time. We have so many knowledgeable citizens that someone can create an extremely informative thread incorporating excerpts from the ancients and even providing the original Latin if available.
> A lot of excellent potential discussions can begin from less than pleasant exchanges - do this for the respublica and her citizens - this is part of being an effective and productive member of Nova Roma. Remember the lessons from history that have demonstrate the good changes that can come from an otherwise unpleasant occurence.
>
> Cúrá(te) ut valeá(ti)s optimé!
>
> Julia
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> >
> > Cato omnibus in foro SPD
> >
> > Oh no, the ancient Romans certainly didn't have fights in public in the Forum. Nope, didn't happen.
> >
> > As long as you ignore writers like... oh... Livy, Polybius, Cassius Dio, Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Lucan, Cicero, Plutarch, Appian, Tacitus, Apollodorus, Sallust, Velleius Paterculus...but those minor figures aside, it's clear that the ancients were absolutely proto-Victorian in their public manners and speech.
> >
> > You might also want to have clued in Caesar as he lay dying on the floor of the Senate House. He might have been surprised to hear it.
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > Cato
> >
>

Salve Iulia,
it's not me you want as a tour guide, but L. Quirinus Sulla. He's the source
of the information about Caesar. He's an invaluable tour guide in Rome.

Optime vale,
Livia

----- Original Message -----
From: "luciaiuliaaquila" <dis_pensible@...>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 9:33 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Position Caesar Died In Discussion - Regarding this
Interesting Development


Salvete,

Now see... this is a subject that should be taken to another thread, albeit
with a much better subject line then the one I hastily chose, and discussed
in a mature rational fashion. Cato used some very good examples, Messalina
suggested a book and Livia proved that she is definitely the one a visitor
to Rome wants as a tour guide.
It just takes a little effort on everyone's part.
I am finding it very interesting and I reeeaaallly like when sources are
cited because then our fellow cives can do more research on their own.
This deserves a thread of its own.

Valete,

Julia




--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Livia Plauta" <livia.plauta@...>
wrote:
>
> Salvete,
> as far as I know Caesar died in the current Largo Argentina, under the
> stop
> of tram number 8, which was then just outside the entrance of Pompey's
> theatre, where the senate session had been held. I don't think there was a
> chair outside, though there might have been a bench. Hovever, the location
> is at least a 15 minutes walk from the forum.
>
> Valete,
> Livia
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Maxima Valeria Messallina" <maximavaleriamessallina@...>
> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 6:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Regarding this Interesting Development
>
>
> Caesar didn't die on the floor. He was stabbed sitting up and died sitting
> in his chair.
>
>
> --- On Thu, 1/21/10, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: Cato <catoinnyc@...>
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Regarding this Interesting Development
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thursday, January 21, 2010, 9:20 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Cato omnibus in foro SPD
>
> Oh no, the ancient Romans certainly didn't have fights in public in the
> Forum. Nope, didn't happen.
>
> As long as you ignore writers like... oh... Livy, Polybius, Cassius Dio,
> Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Lucan, Cicero, Plutarch, Appian, Tacitus,
> Apollodorus, Sallust, Velleius Paterculus.. .but those minor figures
> aside,
> it's clear that the ancients were absolutely proto-Victorian in their
> public
> manners and speech.
>
> You might also want to have clued in Caesar as he lay dying on the floor
> of
> the Senate House. He might have been surprised to hear it.
>
> Valete,
>
> Cato
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Cato Iuliae Aquilae omnibusque in foro SPD

You're quite right. How did the Romans see the Forum? What did they do there? Was it a sacred space? What should we be using - or *not* using - our Forum for? I have some ideas (some of which I have voiced before, but I'm interested in hearing what others might think.

Valete,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "luciaiuliaaquila" <dis_pensible@...> wrote:
>
> Iulia Catoni omnibusque S.P.D.
>
> RE: behavior in the forum in Ancient Rome:
>
> In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> >[...]Livy, Polybius, Cassius Dio, Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Lucan, >Cicero, Plutarch, Appian, Tacitus, Apollodorus, Sallust, Velleius >Paterculus...but those minor figures aside, it's clear that the >ancients were absolutely proto-Victorian in their public manners and >speech.
>
> This also would make an excellent new thread and an issue that comes up time after time. We have so many knowledgeable citizens that someone can create an extremely informative thread incorporating excerpts from the ancients and even providing the original Latin if available.
> A lot of excellent potential discussions can begin from less than pleasant exchanges - do this for the respublica and her citizens - this is part of being an effective and productive member of Nova Roma. Remember the lessons from history that have demonstrate the good changes that can come from an otherwise unpleasant occurence.
>
> Cúrá(te) ut valeá(ti)s optimé!
>
> Julia
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> >
> > Cato omnibus in foro SPD
> >
> > Oh no, the ancient Romans certainly didn't have fights in public in the Forum. Nope, didn't happen.
> >
> > As long as you ignore writers like... oh... Livy, Polybius, Cassius Dio, Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Lucan, Cicero, Plutarch, Appian, Tacitus, Apollodorus, Sallust, Velleius Paterculus...but those minor figures aside, it's clear that the ancients were absolutely proto-Victorian in their public manners and speech.
> >
> > You might also want to have clued in Caesar as he lay dying on the floor of the Senate House. He might have been surprised to hear it.
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > Cato
> >
>

Salve, Stephen,

May I take the liberty of giving you a very short Latin lesson, sort of? An easy, and correct, Latin salutation that allows you go greet everyone on the list would be Salve (yes, you did that, I know, smile) omnes, which means, to all (people). Also, it is customary for us to use our Latin names on the forum, and I encourage you to do that, so that we can begin to associate your Roman name with you (smile).

I am delighted to see that you are staying a while, there is a lot here that is good, and many wonderful, well read, articulate, kind people, too. I have learned a great deal from many of them, in one way and another, and my life would be less rich without these contacts, and much less rich without the few, but cherished friends that I have made, here. Take a good, long look around ...and then decide what is best for you ...but I'm glad that you are giving us a chance!

Vale bene, (be well, literally, be strong),
C. Maria Caeca
(there are some traditional Latin abbreviations for prenomen. As it happens, Gaius (Gaia, feminine), is my prenomen, and a C. is used to indicate it.)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete omnes,

Um ...this will teach me to give Latin lessons! Stephen, the correct
greeting is: Salvete Omnes. You would use salve when speaking to only 1
person! Mea culpa, magistra mea!

Caeca, a bit ...mortified!

Good idea, Julia!
In reading Mr. Goldsworthy's book, I was completely immersed in the Roman world of Caesar's time. Now, if like Doctor Who I could time travel, I would love to go back and witness so many of the historical events described in his book. In particular, I would most like to be present during the celebrations that accompanied Caesar's triumphs.
So now I ask all of you - if you could go back in time to visit ancient Rome, what time period would you choose and why?
Look forward to your answers.
 
Maxima Valeria Messallina 


<<--- On Thu, 1/21/10, luciaiuliaaquila <dis_pensible@...> wrote:
Salvete,

Now see... this is a subject that should be taken to another thread, albeit with a much better subject line then the one I hastily chose, and discussed in a mature rational fashion. Cato used some very good examples, Messalina suggested a book and Livia proved that she is definitely the one a visitor to Rome wants as a tour guide.
It just takes a little effort on everyone's part.
I am finding it very interesting and I reeeaaallly like when sources are cited because then our fellow cives can do more research on their own.
This deserves a thread of its own.
Valete,
Julia>>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

<<--- On Thu, 1/21/10, C.Maria Caeca <c.mariacaeca@...> wrote:
Salvete omnes,

Um ...this will teach me to give Latin lessons! Stephen, the correct
greeting is: Salvete Omnes. You would use salve when speaking to only 1
person! Mea culpa, magistra mea!

Caeca, a bit ...mortified!>>
 
You have no reason to be mortified! Your Latin is quite good. Now if you spoke Latin like I do, then you would have reason to be mortified! LOL
MVM 





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Happy Anniversary, Paulinus, and many, many more!
 
Maxima Valeria Messallina

--- On Thu, 1/21/10, Timothy or Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@...> wrote:


From: Timothy or Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@...>
Subject: [Nova-Roma] 8th Anniversary
To: "Nova-Roma" <nova-roma@yahoogroups.com>, "BackAlley" <backalley@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Thursday, January 21, 2010, 12:05 PM


 





Salvete Romans,

Boy does time fly. Today is my eighth anniversary as a citizen of Nova Roma!!!

Happy anniversary! !!! To me

There have been some great times and some not so great times but it has all been interesting.

Thanks to all for the memories.

Valete

Ti. Galerius Paulinus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve, et Salvete,

Thanks Messalina!

Right off the top of my head, if I would be born into an era it would be(of course born into a prominant family and of course a citizen):

Right off the top of my head - born maybe 75 BCE, of course born a prominant Iulian.
or
A poetess alongside Ovidus and in that case born around 33 BCE.

Actually, as a female, I would really only want to travel back if I could be assured I would be taken in by a prominant family and enjoy citizenship:)
Anyway somewhere in the Roman Republic, even earlier than I just mentioned. I would have to also take the "phone booth" to the Roman Kingdom era also... to see where it all started and later to Etruria.

Then there is Gaul.

That was fun and I had better stop while I am ahead because it could become quite a list.

Vale, et valete,

Julia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Maxima Valeria Messallina <maximavaleriamessallina@...> wrote:
>
> Good idea, Julia!
> In reading Mr. Goldsworthy's book, I was completely immersed in the Roman world of Caesar's time. Now, if like Doctor Who I could time travel, I would love to go back and witness so many of the historical events described in his book. In particular, I would most like to be present during the celebrations that accompanied Caesar's triumphs.
> So now I ask all of you - if you could go back in time to visit ancient Rome, what time period would you choose and why?
> Look forward to your answers.
>  
> Maxima Valeria Messallina 
>
>
> <<--- On Thu, 1/21/10, luciaiuliaaquila <dis_pensible@...> wrote:
> Salvete,
>
> Now see... this is a subject that should be taken to another thread, albeit with a much better subject line then the one I hastily chose, and discussed in a mature rational fashion. Cato used some very good examples, Messalina suggested a book and Livia proved that she is definitely the one a visitor to Rome wants as a tour guide.
> It just takes a little effort on everyone's part.
> I am finding it very interesting and I reeeaaallly like when sources are cited because then our fellow cives can do more research on their own.
> This deserves a thread of its own.
> Valete,
> Julia>>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Iulia Catoni omnibusque S.P.D.

Ah but Cato - you are describing two different threads:) What an opportunity!
One for research and discussion of the history of the forum in antiquity which includes how ancient Romans saw the forum which would include the sacred space issue, however "Sacred Space" could become another thread entirely.
One for a discussion of the forum in Nova Roma today and how it might evolve to meet the needs of a modern Nova Roman while maintaining the ancient virtues. This is the the tougher of the two but certainly pertinent.

I look forward to seeing new threads. What we must be observant for is when a thread births a new subject and move it to its own thread so the discussion can focus on that subject rather than going all over the place.

Cato, take a tip from Nike, and just do it:)
To everyone: it's time everyone become part of the solution rather than just talking about it. I not only encourage established citizens, but new people too.
Thanks Cato.

Vale, et valete,

Julia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> Cato Iuliae Aquilae omnibusque in foro SPD
>
> You're quite right. How did the Romans see the Forum? What did they do there? Was it a sacred space? What should we be using - or *not* using - our Forum for? I have some ideas (some of which I have voiced before, but I'm interested in hearing what others might think.
>
> Valete,
>
> Cato

P. Corva Gaudialis Maximae Valeriae Messalinae sal.

I think visiting Rome during the middle years of Augustus' reign might be interesting.  I'd also like to visit an earlier period during the Republic.

I apologize, by the way, for mis-stating your name during my reply to Antonius Flavius.  I always think the Maxima is a cognomen and forget it's your praenomen.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Livia,

That's good to know, thank you!

Vale optime

Julia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Livia Plauta" <livia.plauta@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Iulia,
> it's not me you want as a tour guide, but L. Quirinus Sulla. He's the source
> of the information about Caesar. He's an invaluable tour guide in Rome.
>
> Optime vale,
> Livia
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "luciaiuliaaquila" <dis_pensible@...>
> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 9:33 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Position Caesar Died In Discussion - Regarding this
> Interesting Development
>
>
> Salvete,
>
> Now see... this is a subject that should be taken to another thread, albeit
> with a much better subject line then the one I hastily chose, and discussed
> in a mature rational fashion. Cato used some very good examples, Messalina
> suggested a book and Livia proved that she is definitely the one a visitor
> to Rome wants as a tour guide.
> It just takes a little effort on everyone's part.
> I am finding it very interesting and I reeeaaallly like when sources are
> cited because then our fellow cives can do more research on their own.
> This deserves a thread of its own.
>
> Valete,
>
> Julia
>
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Livia Plauta" <livia.plauta@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Salvete,
> > as far as I know Caesar died in the current Largo Argentina, under the
> > stop
> > of tram number 8, which was then just outside the entrance of Pompey's
> > theatre, where the senate session had been held. I don't think there was a
> > chair outside, though there might have been a bench. Hovever, the location
> > is at least a 15 minutes walk from the forum.
> >
> > Valete,
> > Livia
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Maxima Valeria Messallina" <maximavaleriamessallina@>
> > To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 6:32 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Regarding this Interesting Development
> >
> >
> > Caesar didn't die on the floor. He was stabbed sitting up and died sitting
> > in his chair.
> >
> >
> > --- On Thu, 1/21/10, Cato <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> >
> >

Salve amica mea,

So a well rounded discussion of what went on in the forum in antiquity would then serve us all. Through the ancients own words we can demonstrate the various activities that occured in the forum: from religious activities to education to commerce/economic matters to law and trials, to disputes, revolt and murder.

Of course you bring up a myriad of ideas for new threads - dear to my heart is art (mosiacs, frescos, graffitti), textiles and scuplture, and philosophy, medicine, food, and on and on. I agree Maior here is no reason the forum should only focus on the negative aspects; we have so much more to offer... and here I am still posting in this thread as well:)
Well I am off to a band booster meeting - I am so glad Iulius Aquila is a senior and this is his last year!

Vale

Julia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete;
> this is a problem with a one-sided approach. Roman senators were political,they were also literary and busy with religious duties: as almost all senators were pontiffs, augurs, flamens and had large agricultural estates or studied the law (seriously)or philosophy or collected art. or were antiquarians like Varro.
>
> we see a very one-sided behavior "people fought in the forum" well that did happen but not everyday!
>
> The Roman elite were highly educated and well travelled and let's see some of that:)
> vale
> Maior
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "luciaiuliaaquila" <dis_pensible@> wrote:
> >
> > Iulia Catoni omnibusque S.P.D.
> >
> > RE: behavior in the forum in Ancient Rome:
> >
> > In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > >[...]Livy, Polybius, Cassius Dio, Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Lucan, >Cicero, Plutarch, Appian, Tacitus, Apollodorus, Sallust, Velleius >Paterculus...but those minor figures aside, it's clear that the >ancients were absolutely proto-Victorian in their public manners and >speech.
> >
> > This also would make an excellent new thread and an issue that comes up time after time. We have so many knowledgeable citizens that someone can create an extremely informative thread incorporating excerpts from the ancients and even providing the original Latin if available.
> > A lot of excellent potential discussions can begin from less than pleasant exchanges - do this for the respublica and her citizens - this is part of being an effective and productive member of Nova Roma. Remember the lessons from history that have demonstrate the good changes that can come from an otherwise unpleasant occurence.
> >
> > Cúrá(te) ut valeá(ti)s optimé!
> >
> > Julia
> >

Cato Iuliae Aquilae omnibusque in foro SPD

Yes, true, two different threads that could spin off there; I am thinking that the second, how we see our Forum, may actually be a shoot off from the first, how the Romans saw theirs.

First, I guess we look at the Forum itself. "Forum" comes from the Latin "foras" or "outside/outdoors" so it's obviously an open space. Ovid mentions its earliest geography in his Fasti here:

"It chanced that at the festival of Vesta I was returning by that way which now joins the New Way to the Roman Forum, and here I saw a matron coming down barefoot: amazed I held my peace and halted. An old woman of the neighbourhood perceived me, and bidding me sit down she addressed me in quavering tones, shaking her head. 'This ground, where now are the forums, was once occupied by wet swamps: a ditch was drenched with the water that overflowed from the river. That Lake of Curtius, which supports dry altars, is now solid ground, but formerly it was a lake. Where now the processions are wont to pass through the Velabrum to the Circus, there was naught but willows and hollow canes; often the roysterer, returning home over the waters of the suburb, used to tip a stave and rap out tipsy words at passing sailors. Yonder god (Vertumnus), whose name is appropriate to various shapes, had not yet derived it from damming back the river. Here, too, there was a grove overgrown with bulrushes and reeds, and a marsh not to be trodden with booted feet. The pools have receded, and the river confines its water within its banks, and the ground is now dry; but the old custom survives.'" - Ovid, Fasti VI.401ff

It was a valley crossed by a narrow stream, separating the Capitoline, Palatine, and Quirinal hills. It became the center of the growing City, and a market place, as Varro says: "quo conferrent suas controversias, et quae vendere vellent quo ferrent, forum appellarunt."

Sextus Pompeius Festus says (in his definition of the word "forum") that the word has six senses, only two of which may actually bear significance for us right now:

"The first sense is that of the Flaminian or Julian forum, called by the name of the people who established them, a place where things are bought and sold just as they are in private places on streets or in the fields. Secondly, this is the place where justice is done, and where the people meet for discussions and public meetings." - Festus, De verborum significatione VI

Valete,

Cato

Salve,

Granted. To an extent. I don't think senators made it a habit of throwing vitriol across the forum. The fact that it was recorded in histories is indication that it was somewhat remarkable. Also, the most prominent period of outright hostilities between senators included such lovely events as the proscription lists and ended in the conversion of the Republic into the Principate. Certainly not a path to emulate for us staunch (Roman) Republicans.

Also, I think you will find the majority of the Roman public wasn't allowed to stroll through the Senate House. Caesar died surrounded by senators, killed by senators, in a plot orchestrated by senators, and which the general populace was completely unaware of. It wasn't a public affair. I also don't remember claiming anyone was stabbed on the ML. Things might be a bit rough, but it's hard to type a knife hard enough to break the skin. =)

Vale,
Regulus


From: Cato
Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 1:50 PM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Regarding this Interesting Development



Cato omnibus in foro SPD

Oh no, the ancient Romans certainly didn't have fights in public in the Forum. Nope, didn't happen.

As long as you ignore writers like... oh... Livy, Polybius, Cassius Dio, Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Lucan, Cicero, Plutarch, Appian, Tacitus, Apollodorus, Sallust, Velleius Paterculus...but those minor figures aside, it's clear that the ancients were absolutely proto-Victorian in their public manners and speech.

You might also want to have clued in Caesar as he lay dying on the floor of the Senate House. He might have been surprised to hear it.

Valete,

Cato





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve!

I have also read the book and I must agree. It combines historical fidelity with a gripping style of presentation. It is an excellent read.

As for my time travelling, it is a tough choice, but I would have to see why Attila turned back when marching through Italy. Although it might be hard to gain an audience with The Scourge. Curiosity may well kill this cat.

Then again, it would be incredible to travel back to see some Augustan naumachia. The reason? Watching a live-action nautical version of a Die Hard movie just has to be incredible!

Vale
Regulus


From: Maxima Valeria Messallina
Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 7:08 PM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Calling All Time Traverlers!



Good idea, Julia!
In reading Mr. Goldsworthy's book, I was completely immersed in the Roman world of Caesar's time. Now, if like Doctor Who I could time travel, I would love to go back and witness so many of the historical events described in his book. In particular, I would most like to be present during the celebrations that accompanied Caesar's triumphs.
So now I ask all of you - if you could go back in time to visit ancient Rome, what time period would you choose and why?
Look forward to your answers.

Maxima Valeria Messallina

<<--- On Thu, 1/21/10, luciaiuliaaquila <dis_pensible@...> wrote:
Salvete,

Now see... this is a subject that should be taken to another thread, albeit with a much better subject line then the one I hastily chose, and discussed in a mature rational fashion. Cato used some very good examples, Messalina suggested a book and Livia proved that she is definitely the one a visitor to Rome wants as a tour guide.
It just takes a little effort on everyone's part.
I am finding it very interesting and I reeeaaallly like when sources are cited because then our fellow cives can do more research on their own.
This deserves a thread of its own.
Valete,
Julia>>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete omnes,

A time machine? Oh, my! Well, um, let me think about this, because, unless it comes with immortality tablets, I've go a *real* problem, LOL! However, like Julia, I'd need to either have very influential patrons, or invisibility, because there is *no* way I wouldn't want to do, see and hear things that women just weren't allowed to do, see and hear! OK ...since I thoroughly enjoyed the Masters of Rome series (and yes, I do understand that is is fiction and not history,), you can just drop me off just before the rise of Gaius Marius, and pick me up just after Octavius became Emperor. I know ...rather a long visit, LOL ...oh, and if we don't get those little Babel fish ...I'd like Scholastica as a traveling companion, please! At least I'd understand what was being said, and not inadvertently say something truly terrible!

Valete bene,
C. Maria Caeca

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cato Annaeo Regulo sal.

But there are many instances of riots in the Forum brought on by one speaker or another; there were fistfights (and club fights and knife fights) between supporters of one or another politician regularly; the Senate on several occasions had to run into the Senate House or another nearby building to escape the angry People in the Forum after they'd done something to get them angry or they had been whipped into a frenzy.

Vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "T. Annaeus Regulus" <t.annaevsregvlvs@...> wrote:
>
> Salve,
>
> Granted. To an extent. I don't think senators made it a habit of throwing vitriol across the forum. The fact that it was recorded in histories is indication that it was somewhat remarkable. Also, the most prominent period of outright hostilities between senators included such lovely events as the proscription lists and ended in the conversion of the Republic into the Principate. Certainly not a path to emulate for us staunch (Roman) Republicans.
>
> Also, I think you will find the majority of the Roman public wasn't allowed to stroll through the Senate House. Caesar died surrounded by senators, killed by senators, in a plot orchestrated by senators, and which the general populace was completely unaware of. It wasn't a public affair. I also don't remember claiming anyone was stabbed on the ML. Things might be a bit rough, but it's hard to type a knife hard enough to break the skin. =)
>
> Vale,
> Regulus
>
>
> From: Cato
> Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 1:50 PM
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Regarding this Interesting Development
>
>
>
> Cato omnibus in foro SPD
>
> Oh no, the ancient Romans certainly didn't have fights in public in the Forum. Nope, didn't happen.
>
> As long as you ignore writers like... oh... Livy, Polybius, Cassius Dio, Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Lucan, Cicero, Plutarch, Appian, Tacitus, Apollodorus, Sallust, Velleius Paterculus...but those minor figures aside, it's clear that the ancients were absolutely proto-Victorian in their public manners and speech.
>
> You might also want to have clued in Caesar as he lay dying on the floor of the Senate House. He might have been surprised to hear it.
>
> Valete,
>
> Cato
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Salve,

Fights between supporters? Yes. Between senators? Other than the famous case of Caesar (more of a slaying than a fight), generally not. My comment was that it seems our leaders are often the ones wielding the 'clubs and knives' (in the form of personal vendettas - at least from my perspective) that disrupt our public forum, and that I would generally expect better from them. If you can find an occasion of a Roman senator telling citizens not to 'feed the trolls' while referring to another senator, I will cede the point. Heck, if you can find an occasion of a Roman senator telling the plebs anything about the feeding habits of trolls I will cede the point! Just for the entertainment value!

Vale,
Regulus


From: Cato
Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 10:55 PM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Regarding this Interesting Development



Cato Annaeo Regulo sal.

But there are many instances of riots in the Forum brought on by one speaker or another; there were fistfights (and club fights and knife fights) between supporters of one or another politician regularly; the Senate on several occasions had to run into the Senate House or another nearby building to escape the angry People in the Forum after they'd done something to get them angry or they had been whipped into a frenzy.

Vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "T. Annaeus Regulus" <t.annaevsregvlvs@...> wrote:
>
> Salve,
>
> Granted. To an extent. I don't think senators made it a habit of throwing vitriol across the forum. The fact that it was recorded in histories is indication that it was somewhat remarkable. Also, the most prominent period of outright hostilities between senators included such lovely events as the proscription lists and ended in the conversion of the Republic into the Principate. Certainly not a path to emulate for us staunch (Roman) Republicans.
>
> Also, I think you will find the majority of the Roman public wasn't allowed to stroll through the Senate House. Caesar died surrounded by senators, killed by senators, in a plot orchestrated by senators, and which the general populace was completely unaware of. It wasn't a public affair. I also don't remember claiming anyone was stabbed on the ML. Things might be a bit rough, but it's hard to type a knife hard enough to break the skin. =)
>
> Vale,
> Regulus
>
>
> From: Cato
> Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 1:50 PM
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Regarding this Interesting Development
>
>
>
> Cato omnibus in foro SPD
>
> Oh no, the ancient Romans certainly didn't have fights in public in the Forum. Nope, didn't happen.
>
> As long as you ignore writers like... oh... Livy, Polybius, Cassius Dio, Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Lucan, Cicero, Plutarch, Appian, Tacitus, Apollodorus, Sallust, Velleius Paterculus...but those minor figures aside, it's clear that the ancients were absolutely proto-Victorian in their public manners and speech.
>
> You might also want to have clued in Caesar as he lay dying on the floor of the Senate House. He might have been surprised to hear it.
>
> Valete,
>
> Cato
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete,

Since we have had a Renaissance of engaging posts, I might as well add another that I hope might spark some interest.

I am graduating with my undergraduate degrees in 2011, and then I will be making my way to Europe. The length of the journey is still up in the air but I have considered travelling for up to two months. I am hoping to be able to really experience the local cultures rather than simply going from cathedral to cathedral looking at big buildings for the entire trip and so I thought that perhaps rather than taking a tour I should just wander around myself.

One of my primary interests while in Europe is, of course, to see the artifacts of past civilizations, especially Roman civilization. As a result, I have worked out a rough outline for what I think might be a good trip that will prove both exciting and enlightening.

If I might ask for the insight and knowledge of those fortunate to have lived or travelled in Europe, and the ideas and imagination of those who haven't, I would greatly appreciate it. Feel free to add ideas that you think would be helpful, or to point out where I am being overly optimistic or completely wrong-headed. As of now the trip will be just me, my girlfriend, and potentially another friend of ours. I am up in the air currently between the Eurail pass and perhaps leasing a vehicle.

As it currently stands, the trip will start in Turkey. Specifically Izmir. While there I would travel to ancient Ephesus and Miletus. I wonder if these sites have been visited by any of you. I have also considered Pergamon, and perhaps that would be a better destination? I ask anyone who is knowledgeable about the Aegean coast of Turkey to share their opinions. Here I will spend three days.

Next, I considered visiting the site of Troy en route to Gallipoli, which has sentimental value due to the World War I actions of the Royal Newfoundland Regiment in that area. Is the Troy site worth seeing? If the site is complete ruins then it may be better to simply bypass it.

I will switch to a more systematic list, as it is somewhat lengthy. Feel free to chime in with suggestions or criticisms wherever you feel they are warranted.

Istanbul - 3 days.

Salonika - 2 days - also visit the site of Pella, Alexander's capital and see Mount Olympus en route to the next location

Athens - 5 days - also visiting Delphi, Thermopylae, Korinth, Mycenae, Sparta, and Olympia

Ferry from Patras to Brindisi - 1 day

Naples - 2 days - also visiting Herculaneum and Pompeii

Rome - 5 days

Bologna - 5 days - also visiting Ravenna, Florence, Pisa, and Venice

Milan - 2 days - also visiting Aosta

Ferry from Genoa to Barcelona - 1 day

2 days in Barcelona - also visiting Tarragona

Zaragoza - 1 day

Valencia - 1 day

Madrid - 2 days

Cordoba - 1 day

Granada - 1 day

Gibraltar - 3 days - also visiting Cadiz, and possibly Ceuta via ferry

Salamanca - 1 day

Leon - 2 days - also visiting Las Medulas

Santiago de Compostela - 2 days - also visiting A Coruna

Bilbao - 1 day

Bordeaux - 2 days

Toulouse - 1 day

Marseille - 3 days - also visiting Arles and Avignon

Lyon - 1 day

Paris - 3 days - Fin! Flying back to Newfoundland.

This totals to 53 days, so I have a week left to allow for getting lost!

Anyways, this is what I got when I threw together a bunch of stuff I wanted to see in the Mediterranean. When it comes to actual practicalities - I have none. If some veteran travelers or even locals of some of the areas I plan on visiting would like to give me some advice, again, I would appreciate it and could certainly use it.

Additionally, has anyone here ever gone on a similar voyage? Would you like to? I'd love to see what others think about the idea. There are definitely things I may have forgotten (or never known!) so please share!

Valete!
Regulus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cato Annaeo Regulo sal.

Interestingly enough...:

"When he [Manlius] saw a centurion, a distinguished soldier, led away as an adjudged debtor, he ran into the middle of the Forum with his crowd of supporters and laid his hand on him. After declaiming against the tyranny of patricians and the brutality of usurers and the wretched condition of the plebs...

"After satisfying himself as to the state of public feeling he [the Dictator] called a meeting of the senate for the following day and ordered them to remain in constant attendance upon him. He then ordered his chair of office to be placed on the tribunal in the Comitium and, surrounded by the senators as a bodyguard, sent his officer to M. Manlius. On receiving the Dictator's summons, Manlius gave his party a signal that a conflict was imminent, and appeared before the tribunal with an immense crowd round him, prepared to feed the trolls that lived beneath the lapis niger. On the one side the senate, on the other side the plebs, each with their eyes fixed on their respective leaders, stood facing one another as though drawn up for battle...

"By this time the crowd refused to leave the spot even at night, and were threatening to break open the prison when the senate conceded what they were going to extort by violence..." - Livy, History of Rome 6.14-16 (ed. G. Equitius Cato)

Vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "T. Annaeus Regulus" <t.annaevsregvlvs@...> wrote:
>
> Salve,
>
> Fights between supporters? Yes. Between senators? Other than the famous case of Caesar (more of a slaying than a fight), generally not. My comment was that it seems our leaders are often the ones wielding the 'clubs and knives' (in the form of personal vendettas - at least from my perspective) that disrupt our public forum, and that I would generally expect better from them. If you can find an occasion of a Roman senator telling citizens not to 'feed the trolls' while referring to another senator, I will cede the point. Heck, if you can find an occasion of a Roman senator telling the plebs anything about the feeding habits of trolls I will cede the point! Just for the entertainment value!
>
> Vale,
> Regulus
>
>
> From: Cato
> Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 10:55 PM
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Regarding this Interesting Development
>
>
>
> Cato Annaeo Regulo sal.
>
> But there are many instances of riots in the Forum brought on by one speaker or another; there were fistfights (and club fights and knife fights) between supporters of one or another politician regularly; the Senate on several occasions had to run into the Senate House or another nearby building to escape the angry People in the Forum after they'd done something to get them angry or they had been whipped into a frenzy.
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "T. Annaeus Regulus" <t.annaevsregvlvs@> wrote:
> >
> > Salve,
> >
> > Granted. To an extent. I don't think senators made it a habit of throwing vitriol across the forum. The fact that it was recorded in histories is indication that it was somewhat remarkable. Also, the most prominent period of outright hostilities between senators included such lovely events as the proscription lists and ended in the conversion of the Republic into the Principate. Certainly not a path to emulate for us staunch (Roman) Republicans.
> >
> > Also, I think you will find the majority of the Roman public wasn't allowed to stroll through the Senate House. Caesar died surrounded by senators, killed by senators, in a plot orchestrated by senators, and which the general populace was completely unaware of. It wasn't a public affair. I also don't remember claiming anyone was stabbed on the ML. Things might be a bit rough, but it's hard to type a knife hard enough to break the skin. =)
> >
> > Vale,
> > Regulus
> >
> >
> > From: Cato
> > Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 1:50 PM
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Regarding this Interesting Development
> >
> >
> >
> > Cato omnibus in foro SPD
> >
> > Oh no, the ancient Romans certainly didn't have fights in public in the Forum. Nope, didn't happen.
> >
> > As long as you ignore writers like... oh... Livy, Polybius, Cassius Dio, Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Lucan, Cicero, Plutarch, Appian, Tacitus, Apollodorus, Sallust, Velleius Paterculus...but those minor figures aside, it's clear that the ancients were absolutely proto-Victorian in their public manners and speech.
> >
> > You might also want to have clued in Caesar as he lay dying on the floor of the Senate House. He might have been surprised to hear it.
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > Cato
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Bravo! The day is yours! Haha, creative editing at its finest. For a moment I thought you had truly found a reference. Nonetheless, this will do nicely.

Vale
Regulus


From: Cato
Sent: Friday, January 22, 2010 12:10 AM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Regarding this Interesting Development



Cato Annaeo Regulo sal.

Interestingly enough...:

"When he [Manlius] saw a centurion, a distinguished soldier, led away as an adjudged debtor, he ran into the middle of the Forum with his crowd of supporters and laid his hand on him. After declaiming against the tyranny of patricians and the brutality of usurers and the wretched condition of the plebs...

"After satisfying himself as to the state of public feeling he [the Dictator] called a meeting of the senate for the following day and ordered them to remain in constant attendance upon him. He then ordered his chair of office to be placed on the tribunal in the Comitium and, surrounded by the senators as a bodyguard, sent his officer to M. Manlius. On receiving the Dictator's summons, Manlius gave his party a signal that a conflict was imminent, and appeared before the tribunal with an immense crowd round him, prepared to feed the trolls that lived beneath the lapis niger. On the one side the senate, on the other side the plebs, each with their eyes fixed on their respective leaders, stood facing one another as though drawn up for battle...

"By this time the crowd refused to leave the spot even at night, and were threatening to break open the prison when the senate conceded what they were going to extort by violence..." - Livy, History of Rome 6.14-16 (ed. G. Equitius Cato)

Vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "T. Annaeus Regulus" <t.annaevsregvlvs@...> wrote:
>
> Salve,
>
> Fights between supporters? Yes. Between senators? Other than the famous case of Caesar (more of a slaying than a fight), generally not. My comment was that it seems our leaders are often the ones wielding the 'clubs and knives' (in the form of personal vendettas - at least from my perspective) that disrupt our public forum, and that I would generally expect better from them. If you can find an occasion of a Roman senator telling citizens not to 'feed the trolls' while referring to another senator, I will cede the point. Heck, if you can find an occasion of a Roman senator telling the plebs anything about the feeding habits of trolls I will cede the point! Just for the entertainment value!
>
> Vale,
> Regulus
>
>
> From: Cato
> Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 10:55 PM
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Regarding this Interesting Development
>
>
>
> Cato Annaeo Regulo sal.
>
> But there are many instances of riots in the Forum brought on by one speaker or another; there were fistfights (and club fights and knife fights) between supporters of one or another politician regularly; the Senate on several occasions had to run into the Senate House or another nearby building to escape the angry People in the Forum after they'd done something to get them angry or they had been whipped into a frenzy.
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "T. Annaeus Regulus" <t.annaevsregvlvs@> wrote:
> >
> > Salve,
> >
> > Granted. To an extent. I don't think senators made it a habit of throwing vitriol across the forum. The fact that it was recorded in histories is indication that it was somewhat remarkable. Also, the most prominent period of outright hostilities between senators included such lovely events as the proscription lists and ended in the conversion of the Republic into the Principate. Certainly not a path to emulate for us staunch (Roman) Republicans.
> >
> > Also, I think you will find the majority of the Roman public wasn't allowed to stroll through the Senate House. Caesar died surrounded by senators, killed by senators, in a plot orchestrated by senators, and which the general populace was completely unaware of. It wasn't a public affair. I also don't remember claiming anyone was stabbed on the ML. Things might be a bit rough, but it's hard to type a knife hard enough to break the skin. =)
> >
> > Vale,
> > Regulus
> >
> >
> > From: Cato
> > Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 1:50 PM
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Regarding this Interesting Development
> >
> >
> >
> > Cato omnibus in foro SPD
> >
> > Oh no, the ancient Romans certainly didn't have fights in public in the Forum. Nope, didn't happen.
> >
> > As long as you ignore writers like... oh... Livy, Polybius, Cassius Dio, Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Lucan, Cicero, Plutarch, Appian, Tacitus, Apollodorus, Sallust, Velleius Paterculus...but those minor figures aside, it's clear that the ancients were absolutely proto-Victorian in their public manners and speech.
> >
> > You might also want to have clued in Caesar as he lay dying on the floor of the Senate House. He might have been surprised to hear it.
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > Cato
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

L. Liviae Plautae s.p.d.,

> as far as I know Caesar died in the current Largo Argentina, under the stop of tram number 8, which was then just outside the entrance of Pompey's theatre...

Happy memory with you of my April days in Rome, last year. In which place I bought Latin/Italian books Eneid, Iliad & Odyssey and Ancient Greek/Italian Chaldean oracles.

Vale

C. Petronius Dexter
Tribuns Plebis Arcoiali scribebat
a.d. XI Kal. Feb. P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.

>>>I bought Latin/Italian books Eneid, Iliad & Odyssey and Ancient Greek/Italian Chaldean oracles.<<<

Ooops !
Iliad & Odyssey too was Ancient Greek/Italian book, of course.

Vale

C. Petronius Dexter
Tribuns Plebis Arcoiali scribebat
a.d. XI Kal. Feb. P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.

I've read somewhere that fragments of the books survive does anyone have a scan, copy, link, anything? NR is in turmoil and when our ancestors were in turmoils that's where they turned.
DVIC
Nero

>
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica C. Mariae Caecae quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque
> bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
>
>
> Salvete omnes,
>
> A time machine? Oh, my! Well, um, let me think about this, because, unless it
> comes with immortality tablets, I've go a *real* problem, LOL!
>
> ATS: LOL!
>
>
> However, like Julia, I'd need to either have very influential patrons, or
> invisibility, because there is *no* way I wouldn't want to do, see and hear
> things that women just weren't allowed to do, see and hear!
>
> ATS: We¹d have to arrange for a little surgery, nothing major, you see.
> Klingon or Harry Potter cloaks might be helpful, too, or maybe Le Casque
> Invisible, but there¹s an outside chance that the Afghan version of the burqa
> might do. Add an artificial beard, and who would know what sex we were?
>
>
> OK ...since I thoroughly enjoyed the Masters of Rome series (and yes, I do
> understand that is is fiction and not history,), you can just drop me off just
> before the rise of Gaius Marius, and pick me up just after Octavius became
> Emperor. I know ...rather a long visit, LOL ...oh, and if we don't get those
> little Babel fish ...I'd like Scholastica as a traveling companion, please!
> At least I'd understand what was being said, and not inadvertently say
> something truly terrible!
>
> ATS: Both of us would need Avitus, and somebody more expert in history
> than I am. Latin flows from the tongue, pen, and keyboard of Avitus; he is
> well known for his fluency in Latin. I can do pretty well, but not that well.
> As for saying something terrible, I¹ve already taught you something to
> avoid... ;-) ...and a word whose meaning is very unlike what it looks like
> in English...pay attention to magistra, learn those idioms, and avoid
> translating the Latin active voice with the passive voice you have not yet
> studied, o discipula mea...
>
> Valete bene,
> C. Maria Caeca
>
> Vale, et valete.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Regule,

For your trip, I would suggest that you take as many as vitamins as possible: Izmir-Ephesus-Miletus-Pergamon-Gallipoli will already ask organization and energy. ;-)

First of all: well check your luggage arriving and leaving Turkey. Overall no thing that may(even) *looks like* an antiquity. No scissors, knives etc.. As Turkey's authorities are put pressure on the security measures, it happens regularly that the customs officers be eager to show that... yes, they can. ;-)

Second: learn a few words in every language of the countries you will cross. It helps.

On Turkey, back :
- average Turks are ppl who welcome tourists but who see tourism as just an additional resource. They consider having no special need of it.
- Turkey is a big country, whose patterns in terms of driving are not the same as in the last part of our scheduled trip. Driving times must be multiplied at least by 1.5.
- How your schedule will depend where you arrive and where you sleep. Izmir? Izmir airport is 20' far from Izmir center, and the beach resorts btw 45' and 1h30 from there by car
- renting a car is the best way to visit the different sites.
- each of the 3 sites is worthy: Ephesus, Miletus and Pergamon and offers various interests.
- such sites deserve having a bit free time just to go in certain parts of the site, where ordinary ppl don't go, and where you will see particular antiquities, or just *feel* the site
- Ephesus is the most crowded place: recommended to arrive early. Do not forget the museum in Selcuk, the modern town nearby
- If you visit Turkey in summer, it may be hot: the hotter, the slower you visit.
- apart the big cities like Izmir Antalya, Istanbul, etc., a tourist cannot behave as if (s)he were in a Western country. The advantage is that, except around the hotel areas, tourists are not harassed by little merchants, etc.
- Troy is not worthy itself. But it is Troy...
etc.

I hope that it will help you.

Vale,


P. Memmius Albucius

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "T. Annaeus Regulus" <t.annaevsregvlvs@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete,
>
> Since we have had a Renaissance of engaging posts, I might as well add another that I hope might spark some interest.
>
> I am graduating with my undergraduate degrees in 2011, and then I will be making my way to Europe. The length of the journey is still up in the air but I have considered travelling for up to two months. I am hoping to be able to really experience the local cultures rather than simply going from cathedral to cathedral looking at big buildings for the entire trip and so I thought that perhaps rather than taking a tour I should just wander around myself.
>
> One of my primary interests while in Europe is, of course, to see the artifacts of past civilizations, especially Roman civilization. As a result, I have worked out a rough outline for what I think might be a good trip that will prove both exciting and enlightening.
>
> If I might ask for the insight and knowledge of those fortunate to have lived or travelled in Europe, and the ideas and imagination of those who haven't, I would greatly appreciate it. Feel free to add ideas that you think would be helpful, or to point out where I am being overly optimistic or completely wrong-headed. As of now the trip will be just me, my girlfriend, and potentially another friend of ours. I am up in the air currently between the Eurail pass and perhaps leasing a vehicle.
>
> As it currently stands, the trip will start in Turkey. Specifically Izmir. While there I would travel to ancient Ephesus and Miletus. I wonder if these sites have been visited by any of you. I have also considered Pergamon, and perhaps that would be a better destination? I ask anyone who is knowledgeable about the Aegean coast of Turkey to share their opinions. Here I will spend three days.
>
> Next, I considered visiting the site of Troy en route to Gallipoli, which has sentimental value due to the World War I actions of the Royal Newfoundland Regiment in that area. Is the Troy site worth seeing? If the site is complete ruins then it may be better to simply bypass it.
>
> I will switch to a more systematic list, as it is somewhat lengthy. Feel free to chime in with suggestions or criticisms wherever you feel they are warranted.
>
> Istanbul - 3 days.
>
> Salonika - 2 days - also visit the site of Pella, Alexander's capital and see Mount Olympus en route to the next location
>
> Athens - 5 days - also visiting Delphi, Thermopylae, Korinth, Mycenae, Sparta, and Olympia
>
> Ferry from Patras to Brindisi - 1 day
>
> Naples - 2 days - also visiting Herculaneum and Pompeii
>
> Rome - 5 days
>
> Bologna - 5 days - also visiting Ravenna, Florence, Pisa, and Venice
>
> Milan - 2 days - also visiting Aosta
>
> Ferry from Genoa to Barcelona - 1 day
>
> 2 days in Barcelona - also visiting Tarragona
>
> Zaragoza - 1 day
>
> Valencia - 1 day
>
> Madrid - 2 days
>
> Cordoba - 1 day
>
> Granada - 1 day
>
> Gibraltar - 3 days - also visiting Cadiz, and possibly Ceuta via ferry
>
> Salamanca - 1 day
>
> Leon - 2 days - also visiting Las Medulas
>
> Santiago de Compostela - 2 days - also visiting A Coruna
>
> Bilbao - 1 day
>
> Bordeaux - 2 days
>
> Toulouse - 1 day
>
> Marseille - 3 days - also visiting Arles and Avignon
>
> Lyon - 1 day
>
> Paris - 3 days - Fin! Flying back to Newfoundland.
>
> This totals to 53 days, so I have a week left to allow for getting lost!
>
> Anyways, this is what I got when I threw together a bunch of stuff I wanted to see in the Mediterranean. When it comes to actual practicalities - I have none. If some veteran travelers or even locals of some of the areas I plan on visiting would like to give me some advice, again, I would appreciate it and could certainly use it.
>
> Additionally, has anyone here ever gone on a similar voyage? Would you like to? I'd love to see what others think about the idea. There are definitely things I may have forgotten (or never known!) so please share!
>
> Valete!
> Regulus
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 1:54 AM, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:

> Cato Iuliae Aquilae omnibusque in foro SPD
>
>
> First, I guess we look at the Forum itself. "Forum" comes from the Latin
> "foras" or "outside/outdoors" so it's obviously an open space. Ovid
> mentions its earliest geography in his Fasti here:
>
>

Now I find this fascinating. Can anyone recommend any online maps of the
Forum at whatever stage in it's development. i like to be able to visualise
things like this and I find maps really helpfull

Flavia Lucilla Merula


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus Quiritibus et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit: Salvete, vosque bona Iuppiter auctet ope.

Hodie est ante diem XI Kalendas Februaras; haec dies comitialis est: ludi Palatini; Fidicula vespere occidit, dies pluvius.

AUC 642-647 / 111-106 BCE: The Jugurtha War

"Adherbal, attacked by Jugurtha and besieged in the town of Cirtha was killed in violation of a senatorial decree. Because of this, war was declared upon Jugurtha, and consul Calpurnius Bestia, who was sent out to conduct this war, concluded a treaty with Jugurtha, without being ordered to do so by the people or the Senate. Under safe-conduct, Jugurtha was invited to Rome so that he might indicate the instigators of his plots (he was said to have corrupted many senators with bribes), and arrived. Because he killed some sort of king who was called Massiva and tried to claim the kingdom of the hated Jugurtha from the Roman people, Jugurtha risked standing trial for his life, and secretly fled. It is said that when he left the city, he commented: "What a corrupt city! It will perish as soon as it finds someone to buy it." Deputy Aulus Postumius was defeated in battle by Jugurtha and added to this an dishonorable peace treaty, which the Senate preferred not to ratify (110 BCE).

"Consul Quintus Caecilius Metellus defeated Jugurtha in two battles and devastated all Numidia (109 BCE)." ~ Titus Livius, Perioche 64-65

Battle of the Muthul River

In the spring of 108 BCE, after a few Roman defeats and political intrigues had prolonged the war needlessly, Quintus Caecilius Metellus finally led a Roman army against Jugurtha. Jugurtha withdrew before Metellus and prepared a trap. The path of the Roman army had to cross a mountain range to reach the Numidian interior, then traverse a desert plane eighteen miles wide before reaching the River Muthul where it would find much needed water before it could move on. Along the flank of the desert plane was a low ridge covered with brush. Near the River Muthul, Jugurtha placed a portion of his infantry and all of his elephants as a blocking force under Bomilcar. Behind the ridge, near to the mountain passes, he placed the best of his remaining infantry and all of his cavalry.

Coming out of the mountain passes, Metellus saw the trap, but knew he had to reach the river. He dispatched a small force under Publius Rutilius Rufus towards the river that was to pitch camp. Rutilius would later become a famed historian. Metellus sent the main body of the army on a march out of the mountain passes piecemeal, in small detachments, marching obliquely across the plane towards Jugurtha's forces on the ridge. His plan of battle, exposing the flank of part of his army, exposing part to a superior force, and engaging a cavalry force when he lacked any cavalry to screen his own movements, almost cost him his entire army.

Jugurtha had his infantry on the ridge cross behind the Romans to retake the mountain passes and thus cut off the Roman army's retreat. Swarms of Numidian cavalry charged down from the ridge engulfing the Romans, keeping them in small detachments that were unable to advance or support one another. Bomilcar, leading the other portion of Jugurtha's infantry and elephants, attacked Rutilius Rufus so that he was unable to reinforce the main Roman body. At that point the confused battle had broken down into several small engagements, each Roman detachment having to desperately fight its own battle to survive, while Numidian cavalry controlled the battlefield and prevented the Romans from making any coordinated effort. It was then that Marius, a Roman officer who had risen from the ranks, managed to put together a number of Roman detachments, forming a column of about two thousand legionaries. First he reached Metullus and rescued his commander's detachment. Then forming his force at the foot of the ridge, Marius led the charge uphill that routed Jugurtha's finest infantry, seized the ridge and regained the mountain passes. From this advantage point Marius was then able to fall on the rear of the Numidian cavalry and rejoin the separated detachment into a cohesive Roman army. Meanwhile Rufus held off Bomilcar, then led another attack that scattered Bomilcar's force and killed or captured all of the Numidian elephants. Late in the evening the two Roman forces finally managed to rejoin.

Marius' action saved Metullus' army from annihilation at Muthul. Metellus next split his force into two columns, one led by himself, the other by Marius. Both columns went on to seize the towns of Numidia, Marius succeeding, where Metellus stalled. At Zama, Metullus was again taken by surprise, his camp overrun by Jugurtha. He was forced to withdraw his entire army back to the Roman province around Carthage, thus abandoning all the towns seized by Marius in Numidia. Metellus' treatment of his own men led to a breach between himself and Marius. Marius returned to Rome and, against the opposition of the Senate, appealing directly to the people of Rome, he was elected consul in 107 BCE. Next the Senate refused to grant an army for the new consul. With the help of a Tribune of the People, he did attain money to raise an army, although not in the usual fashion of enlisting from the comitia Centuriata, and thus he was to return to continue the war.


"When Jugurtha, expelled from Numidia by Gaius Marius, received help of Bocchus, king of the Maurians, Bocchus' troops were slaughtered in battle and Bocchus no longer wanted to continue the war he had so unfortunately undertaken. He threw Jugurtha in chains and handed him over to Marius; in this affair, the main actor was Lucius Cornelius Sulla, the quaestor of Gaius Marius." ~ Titus Livius, Perioche 66


The books from Livy's History that cover these years are missing. We have the Perioche, which is a later description of the various books of Livy's completed work, Sallustius' account of the war, and there is the unreliable "Life of Marius" by Plutarch. We do know that the Senate continued to snub Marius afterward, granting the victory to Metellus instead and allowing him the cognomen of Numidicus. The capture of Jugurtha was attributed to L. Cornelius Sulla. The people of Rome took a different view of the war, electing Marius to the consulship on six other occasions in the next twenty years. Metellus remained unpopular because of his harshness in command, although others admired him for it. He was tried for extortion, but acquitted when the senatorial jury refused to look at his accounts (Cicero Att.1.16.4; Balb. 11; Val Max. 2.10.1). In 100 BCE Metellus went into voluntary exile rather than swear to allow the agrarian law of Tribunus Plebis Saturninus. Later that same year, Marius was consul and had to put down the riots that followed the murder of Saturninus inside the Senate while he was under a safe conduct.


Our thought for today is taken from Marcus Aurelius, Meditations 9.4:

"He who does wrong to another does wrong against himself. He who acts unjustly towards others acts unjustly to himself, because he makes himself evil."

Cato Lucillae Merullae sal.

This is a good place to start, I think:

http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/cityofrome/p/ForumRomanum.htm

and

http://www.mmdtkw.org/hisarc.html

Vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Kirsteen Wright <kirsteen.falconsfan@...> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 1:54 AM, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> > Cato Iuliae Aquilae omnibusque in foro SPD
> >
> >
> > First, I guess we look at the Forum itself. "Forum" comes from the Latin
> > "foras" or "outside/outdoors" so it's obviously an open space. Ovid
> > mentions its earliest geography in his Fasti here:
> >
> >
> Now I find this fascinating. Can anyone recommend any online maps of the
> Forum at whatever stage in it's development. i like to be able to visualise
> things like this and I find maps really helpfull
>
> Flavia Lucilla Merula
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 1:29 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:

> Cato Lucillae Merullae sal.
>
> This is a good place to start, I think:
>
> http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/cityofrome/p/ForumRomanum.htm
>
> and
>
> http://www.mmdtkw.org/hisarc.html
>
> Thank you, I have an absolutely horrible form I'm meant to be filling in

this afternoon, so i guess I''ll just wander round the Roman Forum instead
:-)

Thank you
Flavia Lucilla Merula


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Annaei,
unless you are the Duracell bunny, I think you'll find your program very
hard to stick to.
I understand you'd like to see as many places as possible, but, believe me,
human resistance has limits.
Your program might be realizable within a package tour, where everything is
organized in advance, but when travelling on your own you will need to spend
a lot of time arranging travel and accomodation.
Also, if the aim of your trip is having fun, rather than proving to yourself
that you are very tough, you should either extend your stay, or reduce the
number of places you want to visit.
You seem to have no idea of the sheer number of things to see in European
cities. It is totally unrealizable to see, say, Barcelona in 2 days, and
also visit Tarragona. For each Italian city you mention you would need 5
days (notable exception is Aosta, which you can see in one day, but not as a
day trip from Milan).
Bologna, Ravenna, Florence, Pisa, and Venice in 5 days is simply laughable.
Sometimes less is more: if you have no time you should stick to the most
popular cities: Venice, Florence and Rome.

As for traveling, probably an eurail pass is a good idea. Renting a car
would be very expensive, and not advisable if you don't have experience of
driving in Europe, specially in Italy. Traffic, parking regulations, etc.
can be really hard to negotiate if you are not a native.

I suggest you split Turkey and Europe in two different trips. Turkey is
huge, and well worth a visit on its own.

Optime vale,
Livia

> Salvete,
>
> Since we have had a Renaissance of engaging posts, I might as well add
> another that I hope might spark some interest.
>
> I am graduating with my undergraduate degrees in 2011, and then I will be
> making my way to Europe. The length of the journey is still up in the air
> but I have considered travelling for up to two months. I am hoping to be
> able to really experience the local cultures rather than simply going from
> cathedral to cathedral looking at big buildings for the entire trip and so
> I thought that perhaps rather than taking a tour I should just wander
> around myself.
>
> One of my primary interests while in Europe is, of course, to see the
> artifacts of past civilizations, especially Roman civilization. As a
> result, I have worked out a rough outline for what I think might be a good
> trip that will prove both exciting and enlightening.
>
> If I might ask for the insight and knowledge of those fortunate to have
> lived or travelled in Europe, and the ideas and imagination of those who
> haven't, I would greatly appreciate it. Feel free to add ideas that you
> think would be helpful, or to point out where I am being overly optimistic
> or completely wrong-headed. As of now the trip will be just me, my
> girlfriend, and potentially another friend of ours. I am up in the air
> currently between the Eurail pass and perhaps leasing a vehicle.
>
> As it currently stands, the trip will start in Turkey. Specifically Izmir.
> While there I would travel to ancient Ephesus and Miletus. I wonder if
> these sites have been visited by any of you. I have also considered
> Pergamon, and perhaps that would be a better destination? I ask anyone who
> is knowledgeable about the Aegean coast of Turkey to share their opinions.
> Here I will spend three days.
>
> Next, I considered visiting the site of Troy en route to Gallipoli, which
> has sentimental value due to the World War I actions of the Royal
> Newfoundland Regiment in that area. Is the Troy site worth seeing? If the
> site is complete ruins then it may be better to simply bypass it.
>
> I will switch to a more systematic list, as it is somewhat lengthy. Feel
> free to chime in with suggestions or criticisms wherever you feel they are
> warranted.
>
> Istanbul - 3 days.
>
> Salonika - 2 days - also visit the site of Pella, Alexander's capital and
> see Mount Olympus en route to the next location
>
> Athens - 5 days - also visiting Delphi, Thermopylae, Korinth, Mycenae,
> Sparta, and Olympia
>
> Ferry from Patras to Brindisi - 1 day
>
> Naples - 2 days - also visiting Herculaneum and Pompeii
>
> Rome - 5 days
>
> Bologna - 5 days - also visiting Ravenna, Florence, Pisa, and Venice
>
> Milan - 2 days - also visiting Aosta
>
> Ferry from Genoa to Barcelona - 1 day
>
> 2 days in Barcelona - also visiting Tarragona
>
> Zaragoza - 1 day
>
> Valencia - 1 day
>
> Madrid - 2 days
>
> Cordoba - 1 day
>
> Granada - 1 day
>
> Gibraltar - 3 days - also visiting Cadiz, and possibly Ceuta via ferry
>
> Salamanca - 1 day
>
> Leon - 2 days - also visiting Las Medulas
>
> Santiago de Compostela - 2 days - also visiting A Coruna
>
> Bilbao - 1 day
>
> Bordeaux - 2 days
>
> Toulouse - 1 day
>
> Marseille - 3 days - also visiting Arles and Avignon
>
> Lyon - 1 day
>
> Paris - 3 days - Fin! Flying back to Newfoundland.
>
> This totals to 53 days, so I have a week left to allow for getting lost!
>
> Anyways, this is what I got when I threw together a bunch of stuff I
> wanted to see in the Mediterranean. When it comes to actual
> practicalities - I have none. If some veteran travelers or even locals of
> some of the areas I plan on visiting would like to give me some advice,
> again, I would appreciate it and could certainly use it.
>
> Additionally, has anyone here ever gone on a similar voyage? Would you
> like to? I'd love to see what others think about the idea. There are
> definitely things I may have forgotten (or never known!) so please share!
>
> Valete!
> Regulus
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

Salve Ti Annaei,

I agree with Livia and Albucius, whole-heartedly. Too much in too little time.
Don't forget the grand bazaar in Istanbul, you could easily wander for a couple of days for great book finds.
Based on your Vitae, you may want to check out the many active archeological digs going on in Bulgaria - volunteering for a week and living with the people at an ancient Roman site is an incredible experience.

Vale optime,

Julia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Livia Plauta" <livia.plauta@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Annaei,
> unless you are the Duracell bunny, I think you'll find your program very
> hard to stick to.
> I understand you'd like to see as many places as possible, but, believe me,
> human resistance has limits.
> Your program might be realizable within a package tour, where everything is
> organized in advance, but when travelling on your own you will need to spend
> a lot of time arranging travel and accomodation.
> Also, if the aim of your trip is having fun, rather than proving to yourself
> that you are very tough, you should either extend your stay, or reduce the
> number of places you want to visit.
> You seem to have no idea of the sheer number of things to see in European
> cities. It is totally unrealizable to see, say, Barcelona in 2 days, and
> also visit Tarragona. For each Italian city you mention you would need 5
> days (notable exception is Aosta, which you can see in one day, but not as a
> day trip from Milan).
> Bologna, Ravenna, Florence, Pisa, and Venice in 5 days is simply laughable.
> Sometimes less is more: if you have no time you should stick to the most
> popular cities: Venice, Florence and Rome.
>
> As for traveling, probably an eurail pass is a good idea. Renting a car
> would be very expensive, and not advisable if you don't have experience of
> driving in Europe, specially in Italy. Traffic, parking regulations, etc.
> can be really hard to negotiate if you are not a native.
>
> I suggest you split Turkey and Europe in two different trips. Turkey is
> huge, and well worth a visit on its own.
>
> Optime vale,
> Livia
>
>
>
> > Salvete,
> >
> > Since we have had a Renaissance of engaging posts, I might as well add
> > another that I hope might spark some interest.
> >
> > I am graduating with my undergraduate degrees in 2011, and then I will be
> > making my way to Europe. The length of the journey is still up in the air
> > but I have considered travelling for up to two months. I am hoping to be
> > able to really experience the local cultures rather than simply going from
> > cathedral to cathedral looking at big buildings for the entire trip and so
> > I thought that perhaps rather than taking a tour I should just wander
> > around myself.
> >
> > One of my primary interests while in Europe is, of course, to see the
> > artifacts of past civilizations, especially Roman civilization. As a
> > result, I have worked out a rough outline for what I think might be a good
> > trip that will prove both exciting and enlightening.
> >
> > If I might ask for the insight and knowledge of those fortunate to have
> > lived or travelled in Europe, and the ideas and imagination of those who
> > haven't, I would greatly appreciate it. Feel free to add ideas that you
> > think would be helpful, or to point out where I am being overly optimistic
> > or completely wrong-headed. As of now the trip will be just me, my
> > girlfriend, and potentially another friend of ours. I am up in the air
> > currently between the Eurail pass and perhaps leasing a vehicle.
> >
> > As it currently stands, the trip will start in Turkey. Specifically Izmir.
> > While there I would travel to ancient Ephesus and Miletus. I wonder if
> > these sites have been visited by any of you. I have also considered
> > Pergamon, and perhaps that would be a better destination? I ask anyone who
> > is knowledgeable about the Aegean coast of Turkey to share their opinions.
> > Here I will spend three days.
> >
> > Next, I considered visiting the site of Troy en route to Gallipoli, which
> > has sentimental value due to the World War I actions of the Royal
> > Newfoundland Regiment in that area. Is the Troy site worth seeing? If the
> > site is complete ruins then it may be better to simply bypass it.
> >
> > I will switch to a more systematic list, as it is somewhat lengthy. Feel
> > free to chime in with suggestions or criticisms wherever you feel they are
> > warranted.
> >
> > Istanbul - 3 days.
> >
> > Salonika - 2 days - also visit the site of Pella, Alexander's capital and
> > see Mount Olympus en route to the next location
> >
> > Athens - 5 days - also visiting Delphi, Thermopylae, Korinth, Mycenae,
> > Sparta, and Olympia
> >
> > Ferry from Patras to Brindisi - 1 day
> >
> > Naples - 2 days - also visiting Herculaneum and Pompeii
> >
> > Rome - 5 days
> >
> > Bologna - 5 days - also visiting Ravenna, Florence, Pisa, and Venice
> >
> > Milan - 2 days - also visiting Aosta
> >
> > Ferry from Genoa to Barcelona - 1 day
> >
> > 2 days in Barcelona - also visiting Tarragona
> >
> > Zaragoza - 1 day
> >
> > Valencia - 1 day
> >
> > Madrid - 2 days
> >
> > Cordoba - 1 day
> >
> > Granada - 1 day
> >
> > Gibraltar - 3 days - also visiting Cadiz, and possibly Ceuta via ferry
> >
> > Salamanca - 1 day
> >
> > Leon - 2 days - also visiting Las Medulas
> >
> > Santiago de Compostela - 2 days - also visiting A Coruna
> >
> > Bilbao - 1 day
> >
> > Bordeaux - 2 days
> >
> > Toulouse - 1 day
> >
> > Marseille - 3 days - also visiting Arles and Avignon
> >
> > Lyon - 1 day
> >
> > Paris - 3 days - Fin! Flying back to Newfoundland.
> >
> > This totals to 53 days, so I have a week left to allow for getting lost!
> >
> > Anyways, this is what I got when I threw together a bunch of stuff I
> > wanted to see in the Mediterranean. When it comes to actual
> > practicalities - I have none. If some veteran travelers or even locals of
> > some of the areas I plan on visiting would like to give me some advice,
> > again, I would appreciate it and could certainly use it.
> >
> > Additionally, has anyone here ever gone on a similar voyage? Would you
> > like to? I'd love to see what others think about the idea. There are
> > definitely things I may have forgotten (or never known!) so please share!
> >
> > Valete!
> > Regulus
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>

Iulia Catoni Regulo sal,

In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "T. Annaeus Regulus" <t.annaevsregvlvs@...> wrote:

> Bravo! The day is yours! Haha, creative editing at its finest. For >a moment I thought you had truly found a reference. Nonetheless, >this will do nicely

Bravo indeed! This cooperative effort is indicative of what today's forum should be - a place where a discussion educates citizens - even if it becomes a bit heated.
Thanks Regule, Thanks Cato.


Valete optime,

Julia

> Cato Annaeo Regulo sal.
>
> Interestingly enough...:
>
> "When he [Manlius] saw a centurion, a distinguished soldier, led away as an adjudged debtor, he ran into the middle of the Forum with his crowd of supporters and laid his hand on him. After declaiming against the tyranny of patricians and the brutality of usurers and the wretched condition of the plebs...
>
> "After satisfying himself as to the state of public feeling he [the Dictator] called a meeting of the senate for the following day and ordered them to remain in constant attendance upon him. He then ordered his chair of office to be placed on the tribunal in the Comitium and, surrounded by the senators as a bodyguard, sent his officer to M. Manlius. On receiving the Dictator's summons, Manlius gave his party a signal that a conflict was imminent, and appeared before the tribunal with an immense crowd round him, prepared to feed the trolls that lived beneath the lapis niger. On the one side the senate, on the other side the plebs, each with their eyes fixed on their respective leaders, stood facing one another as though drawn up for battle...
>
> "By this time the crowd refused to leave the spot even at night, and were threatening to break open the prison when the senate conceded what they were going to extort by violence..." - Livy, History of Rome 6.14-16 (ed. G. Equitius Cato)
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Iulia Lucillae Merulae omnibusque S.P.D.



In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Kirsteen Wright <kirsteen.falconsfan@...>
wrote

> > Thank you [to Cato}, I have an absolutely horrible form I'm meant to

be filling in

> this afternoon, so i guess I''ll just wander round the Roman Forum

instead



I do hope you come back from your wanderings in the forum and share some
of what you have learned with other citizens:)



From Marsh to Market to the marvelous variety of functions it served
there is more than enough for many people to contribute.

Here is a link to an image of a layout of the Republican Forum:

Republican Forum
<http://z.about.com/d/ancienthistory/1/0/_/M/2/republican_forum_shepherd\
.jpg>


<http://z.about.com/d/ancienthistory/1/0/_/M/2/republican_forum_shepherd\
.jpg>

When I look at it I see the Temples where I might find Dexter or
Messalina, the house where I would find Piscinus and the very steps
where Cato would beÂ… discussingÂ… some issue:) There are a few
things missing but it is a start.

Here's another layout mapped by Giovanni Maggi in 1625, but it does not
include the names of the buildings: Roman Forum by Giovanni Maggi 1625
<http://www2.siba.fi/~kkoskim/rooma/kuvat/mag0699c.jpg> It does convey
the sense of how vital it was.

Google Earth has a 3D rendition of ancient Rome circa 320 A.D.: Ancient
Rome 3D circa 320 A.D.
<http://earth.google.com/rome/index.html#utm_campaign=en&utm_medium=ha&u\
tm_source=en-ha-na-us-sk-earrom&utm_term=ancient%20rome>

Cura ut valeas, Merula

Valete optime,



Julia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Kirsteen Wright
<kirsteen.falconsfan@...> wrote:

>
> On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 1:29 PM, Cato catoinnyc@... wrote:
>
> > Cato Lucillae Merullae sal.
> >
> > This is a good place to start, I think:
> >
> > http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/cityofrome/p/ForumRomanum.htm
> >
> > and
> >
> > http://www.mmdtkw.org/hisarc.html
> >
> > Thank you, I have an absolutely horrible form I'm meant to be

filling in

> this afternoon, so i guess I''ll just wander round the Roman Forum

instead

> :-)
>
> Thank you
> Flavia Lucilla Merula
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve, et salvete,

I am laughing so hard right now that there is no why I am going to attempt a proper salutation Magistra amica mea. et Caeca amica mea.
My vivid imagination is overloaded with an image of both of you in burqas donning beards wearing Klingon cloaks that reverse to Harry Potter's cloak of invisibility and poor Avitus leading the both of you safely through the shadows of Rome complete with Collin's Gem tucked into the folds of your cloaks.
Sounds like the beginning of a novel to me. I will leave out Messalina, Gaudialis and I in the time-travelling phone booth though. However I believe some of the more progressive Romans might be enthralled at the site of a lighter or battery operated tea lights, just bring plenty of the small batteries to bribe them with so they can keep them going long after you depart with your lives:)

Vale, et valete,

Julia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Tullia Scholastica" <fororom@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > A. Tullia Scholastica C. Mariae Caecae quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque
> > bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
> >
> >
> > Salvete omnes,
> >
> > A time machine? Oh, my! Well, um, let me think about this, because, unless it
> > comes with immortality tablets, I've go a *real* problem, LOL!
> >
> > ATS: LOL!
> >
> >
> > However, like Julia, I'd need to either have very influential patrons, or
> > invisibility, because there is *no* way I wouldn't want to do, see and hear
> > things that women just weren't allowed to do, see and hear!
> >
> > ATS: We¹d have to arrange for a little surgery, nothing major, you see.
> > Klingon or Harry Potter cloaks might be helpful, too, or maybe Le Casque
> > Invisible, but there¹s an outside chance that the Afghan version of the burqa
> > might do. Add an artificial beard, and who would know what sex we were?
> >
> >
> > OK ...since I thoroughly enjoyed the Masters of Rome series (and yes, I do
> > understand that is is fiction and not history,), you can just drop me off just
> > before the rise of Gaius Marius, and pick me up just after Octavius became
> > Emperor. I know ...rather a long visit, LOL ...oh, and if we don't get those
> > little Babel fish ...I'd like Scholastica as a traveling companion, please!
> > At least I'd understand what was being said, and not inadvertently say
> > something truly terrible!
> >
> > ATS: Both of us would need Avitus, and somebody more expert in history
> > than I am. Latin flows from the tongue, pen, and keyboard of Avitus; he is
> > well known for his fluency in Latin. I can do pretty well, but not that well.
> > As for saying something terrible, I¹ve already taught you something to
> > avoid... ;-) ...and a word whose meaning is very unlike what it looks like
> > in English...pay attention to magistra, learn those idioms, and avoid
> > translating the Latin active voice with the passive voice you have not yet
> > studied, o discipula mea...
> >
> > Valete bene,
> > C. Maria Caeca
> >
> > Vale, et valete.

Caeca Acquilae Sal,

Uh ...looks like I *really* need to read my mail!!!!! We did *what*? Wearing ...*what?* ...with *who*? Oh, my! BTW, I think ...you forgot to mention the light sabers and the seeing eye wolf, LOL!

More seriously ...there is so much I would want to see and experience that I couldn't even begin to attempt to narrow it down to a single time period or event ...like ... the event that demonstrated the merits of watch geese, or, oh, forget it, I *can't*! I do know that I'd want to go to the republic, I find myself less interested in the Principate, particularly after the Julio/Claudian period ...does that make things specific enough? (grin).

And, just as a side bar ...I love this spate of positive, interesting and fun threads! How long can we keep this going, citizens? (you will find the facilitator of wagers at her table just over there, a step from the really good wine shop ...)

Valete et vale,
C. Maria Caeca, determined to discover into what trouble she has been (oh, *so* innocently) led, (big smile).

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Caeca Regulo sal,

You know ...with 3 people traveling, you *really* need a luggage handler, and, as it happens, I'd be *so* available! I'd even be willing to travel *with* the luggage ...or whatever ...whatever you end up doing, it sounds wonderful!

Vale bene,
C. Maria Caeca

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete omnes,
LOL! Great picture! Actually even Klingons might have passed unobserved in
the melting pot that was imperial Rome.

If I had a time machine, I would visit several periods and places, but I
would start with Rome at the times of Augustus, simply because those were
safe times.
I'd have to make up a story about where I'm from to explain my bad Latin,
and of course I'd need a pair of slaves. I think that's the most important
detail, as no free person would go around without slaves.

However, my problem is that I'd be sorely tempted to change history, even
just by whispering the right thing into the ear of the right person at the
right moment.
I'd probably cause paradoxes and erase myself from existence in a few days'
time.

Valete,
Livia

----- Original Message -----
From: "luciaiuliaaquila" <dis_pensible@......>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, January 22, 2010 9:23 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Calling All Time Travelers!


Salve, et salvete,

I am laughing so hard right now that there is no why I am going to attempt a
proper salutation Magistra amica mea. et Caeca amica mea.
My vivid imagination is overloaded with an image of both of you in burqas
donning beards wearing Klingon cloaks that reverse to Harry Potter's cloak
of invisibility and poor Avitus leading the both of you safely through the
shadows of Rome complete with Collin's Gem tucked into the folds of your
cloaks.
Sounds like the beginning of a novel to me. I will leave out Messalina,
Gaudialis and I in the time-travelling phone booth though. However I believe
some of the more progressive Romans might be enthralled at the site of a
lighter or battery operated tea lights, just bring plenty of the small
batteries to bribe them with so they can keep them going long after you
depart with your lives:)

Vale, et valete,

Julia


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Tullia Scholastica" <fororom@...>
wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > A. Tullia Scholastica C. Mariae Caecae quiritibus, sociis,
> > peregrinisque
> > bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
> >
> >
> > Salvete omnes,
> >
> > A time machine? Oh, my! Well, um, let me think about this, because,
> > unless it
> > comes with immortality tablets, I've go a *real* problem, LOL!
> >
> > ATS: LOL!
> >
> >
> > However, like Julia, I'd need to either have very influential patrons,
> > or
> > invisibility, because there is *no* way I wouldn't want to do, see and
> > hear
> > things that women just weren't allowed to do, see and hear!
> >
> > ATS: We¹d have to arrange for a little surgery, nothing major, you
> > see.
> > Klingon or Harry Potter cloaks might be helpful, too, or maybe Le Casque
> > Invisible, but there¹s an outside chance that the Afghan version of the
> > burqa
> > might do. Add an artificial beard, and who would know what sex we were?
> >
> >
> > OK ...since I thoroughly enjoyed the Masters of Rome series (and yes, I
> > do
> > understand that is is fiction and not history,), you can just drop me
> > off just
> > before the rise of Gaius Marius, and pick me up just after Octavius
> > became
> > Emperor. I know ...rather a long visit, LOL ...oh, and if we don't get
> > those
> > little Babel fish ...I'd like Scholastica as a traveling companion,
> > please!
> > At least I'd understand what was being said, and not inadvertently say
> > something truly terrible!
> >
> > ATS: Both of us would need Avitus, and somebody more expert in
> > history
> > than I am. Latin flows from the tongue, pen, and keyboard of Avitus; he
> > is
> > well known for his fluency in Latin. I can do pretty well, but not that
> > well.
> > As for saying something terrible, I¹ve already taught you something to
> > avoid... ;-) ...and a word whose meaning is very unlike what it looks
> > like
> > in English...pay attention to magistra, learn those idioms, and avoid
> > translating the Latin active voice with the passive voice you have not
> > yet
> > studied, o discipula mea...
> >
> > Valete bene,
> > C. Maria Caeca
> >
> > Vale, et valete.

>
> A. Tullia Scholastica L. Juliae Aquilae C. Mariae Caecae L. Liviae Plautae
> quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
>
>
>
> Salve, et salvete,
>
> I am laughing so hard right now that there is no why I am going to attempt a
> proper salutation Magistra amica mea. et Caeca amica mea.
> My vivid imagination is overloaded with an image of both of you in burqas
> donning beards wearing Klingon cloaks that reverse to Harry Potter's cloak of
> invisibility and poor Avitus leading the both of you safely through the
> shadows of Rome complete with Collin's Gem tucked into the folds of your
> cloaks.
>
> ATS: Quite a picture, isn¹t it? I would also need a bucket of dye to
> conceal my blonde locks. Of course the Afghan version of the burqa, with its
> cap and the screen over the face, might obviate the need for fake beards, and
> I suspect that Klingon cloaks are restricted to the warbirds, but possibly
> they have a personal model as well. We would also need Lentulus, too, if for
> no better reason that he looks so good in a toga (of course, I think he would
> look good in a gunny sack) and has such a nice voice and speaks Latin so
> beautifully. We might need a (genuine) male escort anyway, a la Arabia.
>
> Collins Gem probably doesn¹t have enough vocabulary for a stroll around
> classical Rome; a bilingual Plautus might be of greater assistance. I know
> that Collins doesn¹t provide enough help to read Melissa or the Latin Harry
> Potter. The nicely pocket-sized (ha, ha!) Oxford Latin Dictionary has to be
> employed for those and other purposes.
>
>
> Sounds like the beginning of a novel to me. I will leave out Messalina,
> Gaudialis and I in the time-travelling phone booth though.
>
> ATS: I never did get into Dr. Who, though I did watch some episodes.
>
> However I believe some of the more progressive Romans might be enthralled at
> the site of a lighter or battery operated tea lights, just bring plenty of the
> small batteries to bribe them with so they can keep them going long after you
> depart with your lives:)
>
> ATS: We might need some proof that we were time travelers, such as pix of
> our version of the Parthenon, the Forum, assorted temples...are you implying
> that our lives might be in some danger, amica?
>
> While we are on the subject of time and distance traveling, try this one
> on for size:
> <http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/archivepix.html> Yesterday or the day
> before they had a video of the universe which is really impressive, and a few
> days earlier, they had a photograph of a partial solar eclipse over the Temple
> of Poseidon on Sounion. The video is about six and a half minutes, and will
> take forever to download with a slow connection, but it is worth it. You will
> have to click on the correct date once you access the page, which I recommend
> that you bookmark. Some of the the daily astronomy pictures they provide are
> absolutely gorgeous.
>
> Mihi est coquendum ut cenem. I am still working on the corrections,
> though two midterms and one other midterm-equivalent test are done, and
> pending their completion and that of an unduly-complex and restrictive little
> matter in the Senate, would like to thank (if pro tempore less fulsomely than
> I might like) Paulla Corva Gaudialis and all others who complimented me so
> nicely over the last few days.
>
> Vale, et valete,
>
> Julia
>
> Valete!
>
> ATS
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com> , "A.
> Tullia Scholastica" <fororom@...> wrote:
>> >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > A. Tullia Scholastica C. Mariae Caecae quiritibus, sociis,
>>> peregrinisque
>>> > > bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Salvete omnes,
>>> > >
>>> > > A time machine? Oh, my! Well, um, let me think about this, because,
>>> unless it
>>> > > comes with immortality tablets, I've go a *real* problem, LOL!
>>> > >
>>> > > ATS: LOL!
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > However, like Julia, I'd need to either have very influential patrons,

or

>>> > > invisibility, because there is *no* way I wouldn't want to do, see and
>>> hear
>>> > > things that women just weren't allowed to do, see and hear!
>>> > >
>>> > > ATS: We¹d have to arrange for a little surgery, nothing major, you
>>> see.
>>> > > Klingon or Harry Potter cloaks might be helpful, too, or maybe Le Casque
>>> > > Invisible, but there¹s an outside chance that the Afghan version of the
>>> burqa
>>> > > might do. Add an artificial beard, and who would know what sex we were?
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > OK ...since I thoroughly enjoyed the Masters of Rome series (and yes, I

do

>>> > > understand that is is fiction and not history,), you can just drop me
>>> off just
>>> > > before the rise of Gaius Marius, and pick me up just after Octavius
>>> became
>>> > > Emperor. I know ...rather a long visit, LOL ...oh, and if we don't get
>>> those
>>> > > little Babel fish ...I'd like Scholastica as a traveling companion,
>>> please!
>>> > > At least I'd understand what was being said, and not inadvertently say
>>> > > something truly terrible!
>>> > >
>>> > > ATS: Both of us would need Avitus, and somebody more expert in
>>> history
>>> > > than I am. Latin flows from the tongue, pen, and keyboard of Avitus; he

is

>>> > > well known for his fluency in Latin. I can do pretty well, but not that
>>> well.
>>> > > As for saying something terrible, I¹ve already taught you something to
>>> > > avoid... ;-) ...and a word whose meaning is very unlike what it looks
>>> like
>>> > > in English...pay attention to magistra, learn those idioms, and avoid
>>> > > translating the Latin active voice with the passive voice you have not

yet

>>> > > studied, o discipula mea...
>>> > >
>>> > > Valete bene,
>>> > > C. Maria Caeca
>>> > >
>>> > > Vale, et valete.
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Livia omnibus sal.
I forgot to mention that the photos from my last time trip are here:
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=125050&id=828009843

They should be visible by everyone, not only Facebook members.

Valete,
Livia

>
> A. Tullia Scholastica L. Juliae Aquilae C. Mariae Caecae L. Liviae
> Plautae
> quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
>
>
>
> Salve, et salvete,
>
> I am laughing so hard right now that there is no why I am going to attempt
> a
> proper salutation Magistra amica mea. et Caeca amica mea.
> My vivid imagination is overloaded with an image of both of you in burqas
> donning beards wearing Klingon cloaks that reverse to Harry Potter's cloak
> of
> invisibility and poor Avitus leading the both of you safely through the
> shadows of Rome complete with Collin's Gem tucked into the folds of your
> cloaks.
>
> ATS: Quite a picture, isn¹t it? I would also need a bucket of dye to
> conceal my blonde locks. Of course the Afghan version of the burqa, with
> its
> cap and the screen over the face, might obviate the need for fake beards,
> and
> I suspect that Klingon cloaks are restricted to the warbirds, but possibly
> they have a personal model as well. We would also need Lentulus, too, if
> for
> no better reason that he looks so good in a toga (of course, I think he
> would
> look good in a gunny sack) and has such a nice voice and speaks Latin so
> beautifully. We might need a (genuine) male escort anyway, a la Arabia.
>
> Collins Gem probably doesn¹t have enough vocabulary for a stroll
> around
> classical Rome; a bilingual Plautus might be of greater assistance. I
> know
> that Collins doesn¹t provide enough help to read Melissa or the Latin
> Harry
> Potter. The nicely pocket-sized (ha, ha!) Oxford Latin Dictionary has to
> be
> employed for those and other purposes.
>
>
> Sounds like the beginning of a novel to me. I will leave out Messalina,
> Gaudialis and I in the time-travelling phone booth though.
>
> ATS: I never did get into Dr. Who, though I did watch some episodes.
>
> However I believe some of the more progressive Romans might be enthralled
> at
> the site of a lighter or battery operated tea lights, just bring plenty of
> the
> small batteries to bribe them with so they can keep them going long after
> you
> depart with your lives:)
>
> ATS: We might need some proof that we were time travelers, such as
> pix of
> our version of the Parthenon, the Forum, assorted temples...are you
> implying
> that our lives might be in some danger, amica?
>
> While we are on the subject of time and distance traveling, try this
> one
> on for size:
> <http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/archivepix.html> Yesterday or the day
> before they had a video of the universe which is really impressive, and a
> few
> days earlier, they had a photograph of a partial solar eclipse over the
> Temple
> of Poseidon on Sounion. The video is about six and a half minutes, and
> will
> take forever to download with a slow connection, but it is worth it. You
> will
> have to click on the correct date once you access the page, which I
> recommend
> that you bookmark. Some of the the daily astronomy pictures they provide
> are
> absolutely gorgeous.
>
> Mihi est coquendum ut cenem. I am still working on the corrections,
> though two midterms and one other midterm-equivalent test are done, and
> pending their completion and that of an unduly-complex and restrictive
> little
> matter in the Senate, would like to thank (if pro tempore less fulsomely
> than
> I might like) Paulla Corva Gaudialis and all others who complimented me so
> nicely over the last few days.
>
> Vale, et valete,
>
> Julia
>
> Valete!
>
> ATS
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com> ,
> "A.
> Tullia Scholastica" <fororom@...> wrote:
>> >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > A. Tullia Scholastica C. Mariae Caecae quiritibus, sociis,
>>> peregrinisque
>>> > > bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Salvete omnes,
>>> > >
>>> > > A time machine? Oh, my! Well, um, let me think about this, because,
>>> unless it
>>> > > comes with immortality tablets, I've go a *real* problem, LOL!
>>> > >
>>> > > ATS: LOL!
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > However, like Julia, I'd need to either have very influential
>>> > > patrons,

or

>>> > > invisibility, because there is *no* way I wouldn't want to do, see
>>> > > and
>>> hear
>>> > > things that women just weren't allowed to do, see and hear!
>>> > >
>>> > > ATS: We¹d have to arrange for a little surgery, nothing major,
>>> > > you
>>> see.
>>> > > Klingon or Harry Potter cloaks might be helpful, too, or maybe Le
>>> > > Casque
>>> > > Invisible, but there¹s an outside chance that the Afghan version of
>>> > > the
>>> burqa
>>> > > might do. Add an artificial beard, and who would know what sex we
>>> > > were?
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > OK ...since I thoroughly enjoyed the Masters of Rome series (and
>>> > > yes, I

do

>>> > > understand that is is fiction and not history,), you can just drop
>>> > > me
>>> off just
>>> > > before the rise of Gaius Marius, and pick me up just after Octavius
>>> became
>>> > > Emperor. I know ...rather a long visit, LOL ...oh, and if we don't
>>> > > get
>>> those
>>> > > little Babel fish ...I'd like Scholastica as a traveling companion,
>>> please!
>>> > > At least I'd understand what was being said, and not inadvertently
>>> > > say
>>> > > something truly terrible!
>>> > >
>>> > > ATS: Both of us would need Avitus, and somebody more expert in
>>> history
>>> > > than I am. Latin flows from the tongue, pen, and keyboard of
>>> > > Avitus; he

is

>>> > > well known for his fluency in Latin. I can do pretty well, but not
>>> > > that
>>> well.
>>> > > As for saying something terrible, I¹ve already taught you something
>>> > > to
>>> > > avoid... ;-) ...and a word whose meaning is very unlike what it
>>> > > looks
>>> like
>>> > > in English...pay attention to magistra, learn those idioms, and
>>> > > avoid
>>> > > translating the Latin active voice with the passive voice you have
>>> > > not

yet

>>> > > studied, o discipula mea...
>>> > >
>>> > > Valete bene,
>>> > > C. Maria Caeca
>>> > >
>>> > > Vale, et valete.
>
>
>

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