Hey, I know some Latin, too.
 
VENETA - VENI VIDI VICI!!!
 
See! LOL
 
MVM


<<--- On Sun, 2/28/10, C.Maria Caeca <c.mariacaeca@...> wrote:

Caeca Scholasticae sal,

Optime! Vero!

Albata Semper! Albata victoriosa!>>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Publius Annæus Constantinus Placidus omnibus SPD.

Please disregard my previous message about open places in the
subscriptions for the Chariot Race. The total number of chariots allowed
are sixteen, not twelve. I received nine entries up to now, so this
means that there are seven places still open.

Optime valete,
Placidus

Salvete, Quirites!



Today it's the festive day of Concordialia, 12th Birthday of the Nova Roman Republic. Please remind yourself of the solemnity of the occasion.

Today Nova Roma has to be a peaceful place with noble emotions. The day is auspicious: no bad word is permitted to be pronounced.

Now, in my quality of Sacerdos Concordiae and Pontifex of the Republic, I'm leaving my home and go to Livia Plauta's home, where we celebrate together and she will help me in conducting the Concordialia Ritual for the 12th anniversary of Nova Roma, and for the 13th year of our Republic.


She will make some photos about me during the ritual, and with fortune you'll see the celebrations with your eyes at the end of this day.


Valete in pace Concordiae!

CN LENTVLVS PONTIFEX
SACERDOS CONCORDIAE


















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Avete, Quirites!




Today it's the festive day of Concordialia, 12th Birthday of the Nova
Roman Republic. Please remind yourself of the solemnity of the occasion.



Today Nova Roma has to be a peaceful place with noble emotions. The day
is auspicious: no bad word is permitted to be pronounced.



Now, in my quality of Sacerdos Concordiae and Pontifex of the Republic,
I'm leaving my home and go to Livia Plauta's home, where we celebrate
together and she will help me in conducting the Concordialia Ritual for
the 12th anniversary of Nova Roma, and for the 13th year of our
Republic.




She will make some photos about me during the ritual, and with fortune
you'll see the celebrations with your eyes at the end of this day.




Valete in pace Concordiae!



CN LENTVLVS PONTIFEX

SACERDOS CONCORDIAE




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

M. Moravius Piscinus cultoribus Deorum, gentilibus, Quiritibus, et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit: Dea Iuno vos porrigat opitula.

Hodie est Martias Kalendas; haec dies nefastus est: DIE SEPTIMI TE KALO, IUNO COVELLA: matronae celebrabant, quod eo die Junonis Lucinae aedes coli coepta erat.

Mensis Martius dies XXXI : Nonae septimanae : dies horarum XII : nox horarum XII : Aequinoctium VIII Kalendas Apriles : Sol Piscibus : Tutela Minervae

This is the First Day of the New Year of the Roman Religious Calendar as it was established by Rex Numa Pompilius. The laurels of the Flamines are now replaced, having stood all year, fresh laurels are fixed on the door of the Rex Sacrorum in the Regia and for the Curiae Veteres, at the home of the Curio Magister and all of the shrines of the Curiae, and we assume as well at the homes of all the curiones as all the flamines Curiales are attested. The sacred laurel was used to ward off evil from all those who entered the houses, including the Great Houses of the Gods (Geoponica 11.2). In front of the sacrarium of Mars, located at the Regia, there stood two laurel trees (Julius Obsequens, Prodigiorum 19). These sacred trees were dedicated to Mars and it is thought that they supplied the boughs of laurel that were used on this day to protect the temples and homes of the sacerdotes.

On this day, too, laurel wreaths are affixed to the Aedes Vestae and the Sacred Fire of Vesta is ritually extinguished. The hands of the Vestales are then lashed by the Pontifex Maximus before they begin to rekindle the flame, using.a fire drill and a block of wood made from one of the felices arbores. (Macr. Sat. 1.12.6; Ovid, Fasti 3.137-144). On this day the Temple of Juno Lucina was dedicated on the Esquiline Hill.

There is also mention of today being the dies natalis of Mars Pater Victor. This would indicate that a temple had been dedicated to Mars on this date, probably referring to a temple built during the imperial period, but the ones we know about were those dedicated by Augustus to Mars Invictus (15 May) and Mars Ultor on other days of the year. We still do not know about the indicated temple for Mars Victor.


AUC 374 / 379 BCE: Dedication of the Temple of Juno Lucina on the Esquiline Hill

Juno Lucina was said to have received Her name from the sacred grove on the Esquiline where Her temple was eventually built. That is, that Lucina was derived from 'locus'. In front of Her temple there remained a lotus tree, the second oldest in the City. The oldest lotus tree was called the Capillata, from the Vestales hanging locks of their hair from its limbs as an offering [Pliny, N. H. 16.85 (235)]. New brides were brought to the sacred grove of Lucina where they were purified in order to make them fertile. As at the Lupercalia, this purification ritual involved whipping the bride

A grove below the Esquiline Hill, untouched
For many years, was sacred to great Juno.
When they had gathered there, husbands and wives
Bowed their knees, alike, in supplication,
And suddenly the tree tops moved and trembled,
And the goddess spoke strange words in her grove:
`Let the sacred he-goat pierce the Italian wives'.
The crowd stood, terrified, at the troubling words.
There was an augur (his name is lost with the years,
But he had lately arrived, an exile from Tuscany),
He killed a he-goat and, at his command, the wives
Offered their backs, to be beaten by thongs from its hide.
When the moon renewed her horns in her tenth orbit,
The husband became a father, and the wife a mother.
Thanks be to Lucina! Goddess you took that name
From the grove (lucus), or as yours is the source of light (lucis).
Gracious Lucina, spare women heavy with child, I beg you,
And bring the ripe burden tenderly from the womb.
~ P. Ovidius Naso, Fasti 2.435-452

The cultus Iunonis Lucinae was said to have been introduced by Rex Titus Tatius, with Her grove near the sixth shrine of the Argei (Varro, LL v.49-50, 74; Dionys 4.1.5). Servius Tullius later ordered that gifts for new-born children should be offered into the treasury of Juno Lucina's templum, traditionally a coin, and it was here that records were kept of all births in the City (Dionys 4.1.5).


: Matronalia :

The festival of Matronalia did not come from the dedication of Lucina's temple. Rather it refers to the custom of husbands giving gifts to their wives on this the first day of the New Year. Roman men would also serve their female slaves on this day. With marriages commonly taking place in the latter half of June, a new bride might be expected to be in her tenth moon by 1 March, which could explain the Matronalia. And if she was not, that might explain her visit to Juno Lucina's grove on 1 March to ensure her fertility.


Since today is Matronalia and the dies natalis of the Temple of Juno Lucina, as well as the first day of the month of Mars, a late tradition perhaps celebrated today as the birthday of Mars. There does not seem to be any knowledge of this among Classical authors. Ovid instead places the birth of Mars on 2 May, which is when he tells the story of how Juno became pregnant from a lily, assisted by Flora. The only evidence of today being thought the birthday of Mars is an annotation on the calendar of Philocratus, Mars natalis. But this might easily have referred to the dedication date of some temple of Mars.


AUC 538 / 215 BCE The sacred Grove of Juno at Croton

"Six miles away from this famous city (Croton), on a promontory there was the temple dedicated to Juno Lacinia, a building more famous even than the city itself and held in veneration to all the surrounding communities. There was a grove here enclosed by dense forest and lofty fir-trees, in the middle of which there was a glade affording delightful pasture. In this glade cattle of every kind, sacred to the Goddess, used to feed without any one to look after them, and at nightfall the different herds separated each to their own stalls without any beasts of prey lying in wait for them or any human hands to steal them. These cattle were a source of great profit, and a column of solid gold was made from the money thus gained and dedicated to the Goddess. Thus the temple became celebrated for its wealth as well as for its sanctity, and as generally happens in these famous spots, some miracles also were attributed to it. It was commonly reported that an altar stood in the porch of the temple, the ashes on which were never stirred by any wind." ~ Titus Livius 24.3


Our thought for today is from Stobaeus, Ethical Sentences 47.

"It is not possible for a horse to be governed without bridle, nor riches without prudence."

Publius Annæus Constantinus Placidus omnibus SPD.

From today up to the conclusion of the Ludi Novi Romani (March 12th), I
shall post a series of 12 items - more than one item may be posted each
day - here on the main NR list, for the Third Edition of my Latin quotes
quiz, "Ipse Dixit". The first item, and the rules for taking part in the
quiz, are below.

ITEM #1: Ab ovo

1. How does this phrase translate literally into English?
2. Who is the original writer of the phrase?
3. What is the actual meaning of the phrase in its common usage?

Please send your answers privately to me (ugo.coppola@...) - do not
use the main list!! - and I will reply personally with your score.
Everyone can join - Consules, Censores, Prætores, Quæstores,
Ædiles, Scribæ, members of the Cohors Ædilicia, ordinary
citizens... everyone!

The score shall be as follows:
- 2 points for each correct answer;
- 0 points for each wrong answer;
- -1 (minus one) point for each absent [not given] answer.

Please try not to use Wikipedia, Google or the Internet in general. ;-)

Unlike the past editions of the quiz, the answers to all of the 12 items
shall be revealed only at the end, so if anyone is late or missed the
previous items, they may join in at all times. At the end of the quiz,
after all twelve items and their answers will have been posted, the
citizen with the best score shall win the quiz and receive a Nova Roman
Sestertius, created by G. Vipsanius Agrippa, as a prize.

Optime valete omnes,
P. Ann. Con. Placidus
Ædilis Curulis Novæ Romæ



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Venator,

From the son of one Tech Tiger to the son of another, I'm sorry for your loss. He was a brave man who fought his final battle with dignity.

Vale bene,

Palladius

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator <famila.ulleria.venii@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete Omnes;
>
> Yesterday morning, my father, Stewart, took his last breath.
>
> I had traveled back to Massachusetts to visit for his birthday.
>
> With the rising of the sun, he turned 75 and expired, quietly, with my
> mom by his side and me looking on.
>
> He was sitting in his favorite chair.
>
> My thanks to one and all who offered their prayers and words of
> support during his illness.
>
> My internet access is extremely limited, so I will be out of touch
> until next week.
>
> Let those you love know it, now.
>
> Velete - Venator, alias Steven, son of Stewart
>

�dilis Curulis P. Ann�us Constantinus Placidus omnibus civibus,
peregrinisque bon� voluntatis salutem plurimam dicit.

Salvete omnes!

If you are reading these few lines right now, you are probably aware
that this is a historical date for this (as yet) small, but thriving
community called Nova Roma. Indeed, around these times,12 years ago -
way back in 1998! - a little group of like-minded people decided to
found a Roman revivalist group which would be dedicated to something
else than pure entertainment, or hobbies, or other mundane activities.
What they had in mind was a return to a set of values and morals which
seems long lost in today's frantic, always-in-a- hurry times. Of course
they looked for those values in a past time, and of all the possible
past times that humanity has lived through, their choice fell on a
really golden period of our shared history: the Republican age of
Ancient Rome. And so, with just a little help from modern technology,
NOVA ROMA was born. According to the Constitution, written immediately
after its founding, the aims of the organization are "the study and
restoration of ancient Roman culture. Founded 2,750 years after the
Eternal City itself, Nova Roma seeks to bring back those golden times
but through the spread of knowledge and through our own virtuous
example." This is what Nova Roma is, in a nutshell: a group of people
united by a mutual affection, interest, love and respect for everything
connected to the culture and the civilization of ancient Rome. It may be
said, though, that sometimes not absolutely everything goes peacefully,
quietly and smooth as silk within our community (as in every other group
of people linked by common interests), and every now and then some
discussions may come up because of the different ways in which a few
members view things. Sometimes these debates may get somewhat heated,
and sometimes they may even go as far as involving politics in the much
bigger world outside us. However, starting from today, on the
CONCORDIALIA, the 12th Anniversary of the Foundation Day of our
Republic, this is hopefully not a time for heated debates. This is, I
hope, not a time for letting politics and other such stuff divert our
attention from what Nova Roma really is. Dedicated to Goddess Concordia,
this* is a 12-days time to celebrate peace and goodwill: this is a time
for agreeing with each other: this is a time for getting along with our
fellow citizens: this is a time for being happy!* And what better way to
do this than having a series of pleasant, challenging and, yes, even
exciting Ludi where all of you citizens may join? So, without any
further delay, let me give to all of you a warm and heartfelt WELCOME to
this new edition of the LUDI NOVI ROMANI!

Hereby I do declare the Ludi Novi Romani for the 12th anniversary of
Nova Roma OPEN!

Optime valete omnes!
P. Ann�us Constantinus Placidus
�dilis Curulis Nov� Rom�


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Lentule,

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cn. Cornelius Lentulus" <cn_corn_lent@...> wrote:
>
> Cn. Lentulus Ti. Paulino senatori sal.
>
>
> > The only "public fora" that the Praetors are legally
> > entitled to exercise moderation over are those listed below.
> > The Back Alley is not one of them. This illegal act by the
> > Praetors should be vetoed forthwith.
> >
>
> Last time, when the praetrix moderated 3 citizens, it was indeed a legal fiasco, and I voiced my opinion about it.
>
> If previously I spoke my mind about an incorrect procedure, now, however, it is only fair if I tell you my opinion about the current case, too, which I think is different, and justifiable at that.
>
> The citizen in question did not got the moderation because he said >what he said about the Virgo Vestalis Maxima, but because he did not >show regret about it when it was brought to public by Hortensia - (in >which I agree that she should not forward it to here!).

Exactly. The onus and any consequences at that point should have been on her and that's where this should have ended. She should be placed on moderation but quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Apparently no one. She is immune for the moment. At least we are seeing her in her full childish glory. I hope people remember.


> So the praetors can, and only they can decide what is an acceptable >tone in the Main List, i.e. they decide where are the limits of order >and civility.

Considering the "praetrix" disturbed order and civility to begin with, the fault lies with her. By forwarding whatever it was she forwarded, those words in essence became hers--as should any consequence. Granted the issue is done now, but it should never have come to that.

Vale bene,

Palladius

C. Petronius omnibus Quiritibus et mulieribus Novis Romanis s.p.d.,

1) In ancient Rome, was it allowed to be both religious and politician?

Yes, of course. Pontifices, Flamines, Luperci, Salii et cetera can be consuls, praetors, and so one.

2) In nova Roma, are women allowed to hold religious positions?

Yes, of course.

3) In nova Roma, are women allowed to hold politic positions?

Yes, of course.

4) So, as for men in ancient Rome, can women in NR be both religious and politiicians?

Yes, indeed. It is elementary, Watson.

Optime valete.

--
C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
Kalendis Martiis P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

L. Livia Plauta custos omnibus quiritibus S.P.D.

After Venator's resignation from the post of Rogator, for all posts there
were as many (or less) candidates than places.

These are the elections results according to my count:

A total of 25 tribes voted out of 35

QUAESTOR:

Marcus Cornelius Gualterus Graecus was elected with the votes of 18 tribes.

Titus Annaeus Regulus was elected with the votes of 17 tribes.

ROGATOR:

Quintus Servilius Priscus was elected with the votes of 19 tribes.

Quintus Caecilius Metellus Pius Postumianus was elected with the votes of 11
tribes.

DIRIBITOR:

Marcus Moravius Piscinus Horatianus was elected with the votes of 21 tribes.

Congratulations to all the newly elected magistrates!

Optime valete,
L. Livia Plauta

Cato Dextero sal.

1. Could the Flamen Dialis hold political office?

No

2. Could the rex sacrorum hold political office?

No

So it's not quite as cut and dried and you might make it seem. Certain religious offices were considered so sacrosanct and special that they were separated from daily life in extraordinary ways. In the same vein, the vestal virgins were viewed with such respect and honor that they were removed from the activities of daily life so that they might perform those same duties on behalf of the whole Roman people.

3. Would you, Dexter, allow a Nova Roman man to become a vestal virgin?

Vale!

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Petronius Dexter" <jfarnoud94@...> wrote:
>
> C. Petronius omnibus Quiritibus et mulieribus Novis Romanis s.p.d.,
>
> 1) In ancient Rome, was it allowed to be both religious and politician?
>
> Yes, of course. Pontifices, Flamines, Luperci, Salii et cetera can be consuls, praetors, and so one.
>
> 2) In nova Roma, are women allowed to hold religious positions?
>
> Yes, of course.
>
> 3) In nova Roma, are women allowed to hold politic positions?
>
> Yes, of course.
>
> 4) So, as for men in ancient Rome, can women in NR be both religious and politiicians?
>
> Yes, indeed. It is elementary, Watson.
>
> Optime valete.
>
> --
> C. Petronius Dexter
> Arcoiali scribebat
> Kalendis Martiis P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

WITH PHOTO REPORT AT:
http://novaroma.org/nr/Ludi_Novi_Romani/MMDCCLXIII/Concordialia

--  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --
CN CORNELIUS LENTULUS : PONTIFEX : SACERDOS CONCORDIAE : QUIRITIBUS : S P D


Salvete et avete, Novi Romani Quirites!


Vivat Nova Roma!


This
day is when everything was started - because of which we can be here:
today, 12 years ago, Nova Roma was founded, a nation was born.

This
nation wants a common goal: to restore Rome. But to this goal, we have
to work efficiently, cooperatively, with united force, common spirit,
with one will and one faith. Therefore we chose to worship Goddes
Concordia, the Goddess of the Nova Roman People's Concord - She is whom
we need first and foremost in this 12-years-old Republic.

TODAY I performed the ceremony for the 12th Anniversary of the founding of our Republic at Livia Plauta's house, before her home altar. We celebrated together representing all Nova Romans, and PHOTOS were taken about the event so that you all can be with us in spirit. The photos have been taken just hours ago, the scent of the incense is just smelling everywhere in Livia's house, the fireplace is still hot, Concordia is just enjoying the offerings.

We sacrificed milk, wine, incense, bay leaves, and 3 libums, to Concordia for protecting Nova Roma, and for Her citizens.

You can see the PHOTO REPORT about the ceremony here:

http://novaroma.org/nr/Ludi_Novi_Romani/MMDCCLXIII/Concordialia

<http://novaroma.org/nr/Ludi_Novi_Romani/MMDCCLXIII/Concordialia>


The sacrifice and ceremony has been this in which we included Mars as his feriae is today:


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1. SACRIFICE TO CONCORDIA POPULI NOVI ROMANI QUIRITIUM


Favete linguis!

(Beginning of the sacrifice.)

PRAEFATIO

Dea Concordia,
Concordia Novae Romae,
Concordia Senatus Populique Novi Romani,
Concordia Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
Concordia civium Novorum Romanorum,
Concordia deorum et mortalium,
Dea pacis et salutis et gloriae Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
hisce Kalendis Martiis anni duodecimi Novae Romae conditae,
hoc die festivissimo et sanctissimo Novae Romae conditae,
te hoc ture commovendo bonas preces precor,
uti sies volens propitia Populo Novo Romano Quiritibus, Reique Publicae Populi Novi Romani Quiritium, mihi, domo, familiae!

(Incense is placed in the focus of the altar.)

Dea Concordia,
Concordia Novae Romae,
Concordia Senatus Populique Novi Romani,
Concordia Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
Concordia civium Novorum Romanorum,
Concordia deorum et mortalium,
Dea pacis et salutis et gloriae Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
uti te ture commovendo bonas preces bene precatus sum,
eiusdem rei ergo macte lacte inferio esto!"

(Libation of milk is made.)

PRECATIO

Concordia Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
Concordia Senatus Populique Novi Romani,
Concordia Novae Romae,
Concordia deorum et mortalium,
Dea pacis et salutis et gloriae Senatus Populique Novi Romani,
fortitudo et firmitas nostra,
hisce Kalendis Martiis anni duodecimi Novae Romae conditae,
hoc die festivissimo et sanctissimo quo Nova Roma condita est,
te precor, veneror, quaesoque obtestorque:
uti pacem concordiamque constantem societati Novae Romae tribuas;
utique Rem Publicam Populi Novi Romani Quiritium confirmes, augeas, adiuves,
omnibusque discordiis liberes;
utique Res Publica Populi Novi Romani Quiritium semper floreat;
atque hoc anno anniversario duodecimo Novae Romae conditae convalescat;
atque pax et concordia, salus et gloria Novae Romae omni tempore crescat, utique Populo Novo Romano Quiritibus,
Reique Publicae Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
mihi, domo, familiae
omnes in hoc anno tertio decimo Novae Romae eventus bonos faustosque esse siris; utique sies volens propitia
Populo Novo Romano Quiritibus,
Reique Publicae Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
magistratibus, consulibus, praetoribus Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
tribunis Plebis Novae Romanae,
Senatui Novo Romano,
omnibus civibus, viris et mulieribus, pueris et puellabus Novis Romanis,
mihi, domo, familiae!

SACRIFICIUM

Sicut verba nuncupavi,
quaeque ita faxis,
uti ego me sentio dicere:
harum rerum ergo macte
his tribus libis libandis,
hoc vino lacte melleque mixto libando,
hoc ture ommovendo
his laureis sacrificandis
esto fito volens propitia
et hoc anno anniversario duodecimo Novae Romae conditae et semper
Populo Novo Romano Quiritibus,
Reique Publicae Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
magistratibus, consulibus, praetoribus Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
tribunis Plebis Novae Romanae,
Senatui Novo Romano,
omnibus civibus, viris et mulierbus, pueris et puellabus Novis Romanis,
mihi, domo, familiae!

(Libation of 3 liba, laurels, and wine, milk and honey is made and incense is sacrificed.)

REDDITIO

Dea Concordia,
Concordia Novae Romae,
Concordia Senatus Populique Novi Romani,
Concordia Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
Concordia civium Novorum Romanorum,
Concordia deorum et mortalium,
Dea pacis et salutis et gloriae Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
uti te ture commovendo et vino libando bonas preces bene precatus sum, earundem rerum ergo macte lacte inferio esto!

(Libation of milk is made)

Mars Pater,
cuius mensis et feriae hodie sunt,

earundem rerum ergo,

macte vino inferio esto fito volens propitius

Populo Novo Romano Quiritibus,

Reique Publicae Populi Novi Romani Quiritium!



(Libation of wine is made)



Ilicet!

(End of the sacrifice.)

PIACULUM

Iane,
Concordia Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
Iuppiter Optime Maxmime,
Iuno, Minerva, Mars,
Omnes Di Immortales quocumque nomine:
si quidquam vobis in hac caerimonia displicet,
hoc vino inferio veniam peto et vitium meum expio.

(Libation of wine is made.)


VIVAT NOVA ROMA ANNORUM XII !!!
NOVA ROMA XII !!!


Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus,
P O N T I F E X
SACERDOS CONCORDIAE
------------------------------------------




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This is our "Carmen Decennale", written by Ullerius Ventor,
our dearest poet. Let's thank him again for these beautiful verses!

These verses were recited by a chore of young Nova Romans during the 10th Birthday Celebration, the fisrt Concordialia of Nova Roma, on 1st March, 2008, in Pannonia where the main celebrations were held.

Here you can see the Solemn 10th Anniversary Chore reciting Venator's poem:

http://novaroma.org/nr/Image:ConcordialiaChorus.jpg



CARMEN DECENNALE

by St. Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus



"Rome To New Rome"



Rome

People

Of seven hills

Of river’s side and farmer’s field

Pastoral folk

Became

More



Men

Of clans

Did form their tribes

To secure land and folkways, too

Chose their leaders

Made laws

Thrived



Gods

Looked down

Upon this place

Gave Their notice and lent an ear

To voices raised

In praise

Clear



World

Became

Aware of Rome

Their wealth, their aims, their strength of arm

Some opposed them

Others

Not



Years

Did pass

And history

Saw rise of Rome and then a fall

When city slept

Paused for

Time



Dark

Was called

This dreaming time

As world wore on and learned again

To climb to light

Clearly

See



Fresh

Eyes looked

Upon the past

Felt in their hearts a call to build

Upon a base

Roman

Still



New

The thoughts

Set in motion

By stories old, traditions proud

Philosophies

Virtues

Too



Full

Ten years

Have passed by since

The work begun; build Rome anew

With high hopes and

Faithful

Words



In

This work

Are many hands

Widespread across this world of ours

All bound by one

Ideal

Grand



More

Than this

The People grew

By gens and class, they took their names

They gave their thoughts

And their

Skills



To

Rebuild

Rome as place to be

To live, to grow, to celebrate

To write, to sing

Holy

Words



Like

The old

Ageless city

New Rome’s forum did welcome all

To come and join

Speak their

Piece



Men

Women

Have come and gone

Some quietly, others quite loud

They all made mark

They all

Helped



For

All did

In their own way

Show Roman pride and spirit bold

Filled the Annals

City’s

Tales



Few

Have been

The fallow days

Unfilled by strife, both good and bad

Any effort

Will make

Such



Now

We pause

To look at this

Nova Roma, our city fair

She’s still quite young

Promise

Filled









VIVAT NOVA ROMA ANNORUM XII!

VIVAT NOVA ROMA FELICITER!

CONCORDIA NOS ADIUVET!



LONG LIVE THE 12-YEARS-OLD NOVA ROMA!

MAY NOVA ROMA HAVE A GLORIOUS FUTURE!

MAY CONCORDIA BLESS US!




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"Concordance: A Poetic Offering"

(by St. Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus)




In the shadow of the forum
Stands a temple white and gleaming
Stately columns carved of marble
Sculptured portals crafted in bronze




In the lamplight of the fanum
Stands a statue o'er the altar
Face is kindly beatific
Inviting all to her embrace




Crowds are bustling scurry, hurry
'Round this building looked at, unseen
Inside the hall it is silent
Save for the few who tend the shrine




Each and ev'ry man and woman
Has opinion has a good plan
Of what to build what to discard
Of what is right and what is wrong




As all are free owning themselves
No one nay says their right to speak
Their piece of mind their argument
However wrought within their hearts




Comes a young man full of promise
To the city roaring its life
Sees a need to calm the hubbub
Desires to set a new tone




Comes the young man to the temple
Reads the words above its door
Come pass within and join together
Then pass without and remember




Comes to young man curious thought
He steps inside alone he stands
Sees the statue walks towards it
Stops at altar looks around




Reads the young man all inscriptions
Learns the Name of deity
Honored here in the naos
Concordia he knows Her call




On the altar is a brazier
Gently smoking wafting high
From a coffer he takes incense
Thinks deep a bit makes offering




He dedicates himself to Her
And pledges true his will to help
Bring calmness to city's discourse
Bring amity to hearts of all




How to do this what will he say
To help his fellow Romans to see
That difference of opinion
Need not be the mother of strife




By example he will show way
To disagree but remain calm
To see the goal of building well
So Republic will grow and live




So the young man offered himself
As acolyte to concordance
With cheerful heart and cheerful words
He set to work to forge new bonds




In the shadow of the forum
Stands a temple white and gleaming
Stately columns carved of marble
Sculptured portals crafted in bronze




In the lamplight of the fanum
Stands a statue o'er the altar
Face is kindly beatific
Inviting all to her embrace






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Announced in English, today our Declaration is translated 9 languages, and as our foundation document, is the cornerstone of Nova Roma.
It's been probably a while since you read it. Now read it again, and LISTEN TO THE DECLARATION OF NOVA ROMA IN LATIN, too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vggmssbaGKc
DECLARATION OF NOVA ROMA

We, the Senate and People of New Rome, in order to restore the foundations of Western civilization, declare the founding of Nova Roma
as a sovereign nation. We manifest Nova Roma as an independent world
nation and republic, with its own legal constitution and lawful
government, with all international rights and responsibilities that
such status carries.
As a sovereign nation Nova Roma makes the following claim to various international territories and rights:

We acknowledge ancient Roman territory to be our cultural and
religious homeland, and claim historical rights to all sites and
territories which were under the direct control or administration of
the ancient Roman Republic and Empire between 753 BCE and 395 CE.
We recognize the modern political realities which make the
restoration of such ancient lands to us impossible. Therefore we limit
our active territorial claim to an amount of land at least equal to
that held by the sovereign state of Vatican City; 108 contiguous acres.
On this land a world capital for the administration of our culture will
be founded in the form of a Forum Romanum. The exact site for this New
Roman governmental and spiritual capital is to be determined.

Further, in order that our world presence may be established,
Nova Roma claims our physical territory to be extant and manifest
through those places that our state, citizens, and religious
organizations may physically own, occupy, and maintain throughout the
world. These territories shall exist in a status of dual sovereignty,
being under the cultural and spiritual administration of Nova Roma,
even as they remain under the civil dominion and laws of other hosting
nations. Our pledge is to embody a benign and beneficial cultural and
spiritual influence throughout all societies, while remaining
politically neutral and lawful in action.

Nova Roma also claims temporary dual sovereignty over all other
sites where the gods and goddesses of ancient Rome shall be worshiped
by our citizens, to preserve our cultural and spiritual unity. This
dual sovereignty shall be administered by the People directly and shall
last only for the duration of religious ceremonies and rites. In this
way we shall remain one culture and nation, even as we exist throughout
other world countries.

Citizenship in Nova Roma is open to people of all nationalities
and races. The express purpose of our nation is to promote
international understanding and cooperation through the preservation of
our common classical foundation, and to breathe new life and honor into
all Western Civilization through the restoration of ancient Piety,
Virtue, and Civilitas.

We, the citizens and Senate of New Rome hereby formally
renounce, eternally and without exception, the use of force, rebellion,
coercion, or intimidation in the pursuit of our international status
and claims. We strive to exist as a lawful, peaceful and benign nation,
in accord with the principles acknowledged and shared by the world
community.

Signed this day on behalf of the Senate and People of the New Rome:

prid. Kal. Mar. ‡, Fl. Vedio M. Cassio cos. ‡ MMDCCLI a.u.c.

Fl. Vedius Germanicus, Consul
M. Cassius Iulianus, Consul






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cn. Lentulus pontifex Quiritibus sal.

During the 12 days of the Ludi Novi Romani, we commemorate about the 12 years of Nova Roma, and each day we honour one of the 12 Olympic Gods, the Di Consentes.

Although today we celebrate Concordia, it's only a Nova Roman Holiday for the birthday of Nova Roma. Ancient Romans celebrated Mars on this day, at the beginning of "Martius", the month of Mars. Mars and Concordia together could make the Roman Empire great, strength in the battle, unity in the commonwealth. Romans needed Mars to win their enemies how we need now Concordia to win over ourselves, to be able to forget our individualistic goals and narcism, and to keep together for one, common goal, for the restoration of the Roman nation, virtues and culture.

This day, beginning day of the Nova Roman history, is at the same time the origianal beginning day of the Roman year: there's a lot what connects our Concordialia, Mars Pater and the Matronalia...

Visit and read, and if you can, expand this article:

http://novaroma.org/nr/Mars


VIVAT NOVA ROMA ANNORUM XII





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cn. Lentulus scriba aedilicius Quiritibus sal.

Happy 12th Birthday to Nova Roma!

Welcome to the Certamen Historicum, History Quiz about the history of our Republic, Nova Roma. This quiz will help you to immerse in our community's history, and knowing each other better finally will lead us to accept each other better, in the spirit of unity for one goal, the restoration of the Roman republic.

Each day for the next twelve days one or two questions will be posted that relate to the history of Nova Roma, exactly to that year of Nova Roma which equals to the number of the day of the Ludi Novi Romani, and the day of March.

So at the first day of the Ludi Novi Romani, there will be two questions about the first year of Nova Roma.

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
QUESTIONS - DAY 1
 
Q1. What was the address of the original mailing list of Nova Roma, settled in the First Year?
Q2. What was the exact date of the declaring of our (limited) sovereignty?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RULES:

 

1. Each correct answer is worth 1 point.
An extra point may be awarded for an especially detailed and
excellent answer.
2. Answers are to be sent to my e-mail address <cn_corn_lent@...> within 24 hours after the posting of the questions.

3. My decision is final in interpreting what is and
what isn't a correct answer.

 






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cn. Lentulus scriba aedilicius Quiritibus s. p. d.



The detailed program of the games celebrating our 12th Anniversary is soon to be available in the website.

Summary:

Concordialia ritual and Opening: 1st March
Ludi circenses: Virtual chariot race, Quarters: 3rd March, Semi-finals: 6th March, Finals: 12th March.
Certamen Latinum (Latin quizzes): 1st - 12th MarchIpse Dixit Quiz: 1st - 12th March Certamen Historicum (a Nova Roman History Quiz): 1st - 12th March
Literary contest - in any genre of literature: writing about the reconciliation of factions in NR: rules to be announced on 3rd March
Nova Roman Parody Writing Contest - rules to be announced soon.Visual Quiz - about the Videos of Nova Roma - details soon!

VIVAT NOVA ROMA!





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete omnes!

As part of our celebration of Nova Roma's 12th birthday, it only seems
appropriate that we have a Latin quiz. Lingua Latina plays a vital role
here, since it is our ceremonial language, but also because many of us are
either learning, or intend to learn, it. While Latin may never become our
primary language for day to day communication, on the day when I, a native
speaker of English can ask another citizen, whose native language is
different, to rephrase something I didn't quite understand in Latin, so that
I can better understand what is being said, we will have broadened our
ability to communicate, and, especially in an on line environment, clear
communication serves to bring Concordia among us.

It is, therefore, my pleasure to present you with a quiz, constructed
primarily for beginning Latin students, but with a few surprises thrown in
for the more advanced (provided by one of our primary Latinists). Have fun!

Rules:
1. I will post 1 question a day, participants must send their answers
directly to me at felinitye@... within 24 hours of posting. Please
do *not* post answers to the list! I will announce the correct answer to
question 1 when I post question 2 the next day, and so on, and announce the
winner at the end of the quiz.

points: Questions 1, 2 and 3 will receive 1 point each. Questions 4, 5 and
6 will receive 2 points each. Questions 7, 8 and 9 will receive 3 points
each. Questions 10 and 11 will receive 4 points each, and question 12 will
receive 5 points (and yes, it will be more involved and difficult!) Now
...the questions do get progressively more tricky and difficult, so a good
strategy is to "clean up" on the early questions, to build up some easy
points!

Sooo ...let the quiz begin!


LEVEL 1, beginners

1.. "Vení, vidí, vincí´is such a well known phrase that it has become a
cliché in most languages. But ...what, exactly, does it mean? Who said it?
To what was this person referring?



The next question is for the more advanced Latin students and is actually
another quiz. The response time and points system remain the same.
However, when you send your response to me privately, please indicate
"advanced" quiz in your subject line, so I don't get confused, thanks!



Level II



1 Please give us the third person plural of these verbs in exactly the same
tense!

Vale Optime,

C. Maria Caeca

Salvete!

Congratulations to one and all!

Valete,

Julia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Livia Plauta" <livia.plauta@...> wrote:
>
> QUAESTOR:
>
> Marcus Cornelius Gualterus Graecus was elected with the votes of 18 tribes.
>
> Titus Annaeus Regulus was elected with the votes of 17 tribes.
>
> ROGATOR:
>
> Quintus Servilius Priscus was elected with the votes of 19 tribes.
>
> Quintus Caecilius Metellus Pius Postumianus was elected with the votes of 11
> tribes.
>
> DIRIBITOR:
>
> Marcus Moravius Piscinus Horatianus was elected with the votes of 21 tribes.
>
> Congratulations to all the newly elected magistrates!
>
> Optime valete,
> L. Livia Plauta
>

Maior Dextro spd;
this is a fantasy Cato is constructing to make the Vestales like christian nuns: submissive and apolitical. Very unRoman!

And here is the reply I posted in the Senate: the Vestals were always political. And some historical examples.


The Cambridge Companion to the Roman Republic - p. 155

"Vestals were not simply trapped in political controversy; they provoked it. As early as 143. B.C., a Vestal intervened in the rancorous polarized politics characteristic of the late second century and first century b.c. Appius Claudius Pulcher scheduled a triumphal parade that the Senate had refused to authorize.

" A tribune tried to excercise his veto to stop the procession and to pull Claudius from his chariot. His daughter Claudia, a Vestal, clung to her father, staying in the chariot during the parade [Val.Max. 5.4.6 Cic. Cael. 34.
In a remarkable constitutional anamoly, the personal sanctity of a Vestal trumped the veto power of a tribune"

"In spite of the dangers, some Vestals continued to take political sides openly. Vestals interceded with Sulla on behalf of Julius Caesar's life and property"

Rome and Her Monuments ed Katherine Geffcken
p.358
"Very different is the situation of Vesta. Her shrine in Rome is literally the focus of religious and political activity in the Forum, and her priestesses surpass all other public figures in their power to evoke emotional reactions.Thus for Roman oratory, Vesta, the Vestals, the shrine, and its contents, provided a fertile resource, which Cicero, for one, was not slow to exploit."

From Good Goddess to Vestal Virgin - Ariadne Staples. p.144
"Cicero in defense of Fonteius, exploits that fact that Fonteius' sister was a Vestal [Cic. Font. 21]"

Plutarch; life of Cicero;
[during the Catilinarian conspiracy, while deciding what sentence to give Catilina; :the rite of Bona Dea took place in Cicero's house:]

Whilst Cicero was doubting what course to take, a portent happened to the women in their sacrificing. For on the altar, where the fire seemed wholly extinguished, a great and bright flame issued forth from the ashes of the burnt wood; at which others were affrighted, but the holy virgins called to Terentia, Cicero's wife, and bade her haste to her husband, and command him to execute what he had resolved for the good of his country, for the goddess had sent a great light to the increase of his safety and glory

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> Cato Dextero sal.
>
> 1. Could the Flamen Dialis hold political office?
>
> No
>
> 2. Could the rex sacrorum hold political office?
>
> No
>
> So it's not quite as cut and dried and you might make it seem. Certain religious offices were considered so sacrosanct and special that they were separated from daily life in extraordinary ways. In the same vein, the vestal virgins were viewed with such respect and honor that they were removed from the activities of daily life so that they might perform those same duties on behalf of the whole Roman people.
>
> 3. Would you, Dexter, allow a Nova Roman man to become a vestal virgin?
>
> Vale!
>
> Cato
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Petronius Dexter" <jfarnoud94@> wrote:
> >
> > C. Petronius omnibus Quiritibus et mulieribus Novis Romanis s.p.d.,
> >
> > 1) In ancient Rome, was it allowed to be both religious and politician?
> >
> > Yes, of course. Pontifices, Flamines, Luperci, Salii et cetera can be consuls, praetors, and so one.
> >
> > 2) In nova Roma, are women allowed to hold religious positions?
> >
> > Yes, of course.
> >
> > 3) In nova Roma, are women allowed to hold politic positions?
> >
> > Yes, of course.
> >
> > 4) So, as for men in ancient Rome, can women in NR be both religious and politiicians?
> >
> > Yes, indeed. It is elementary, Watson.
> >
> > Optime valete.
> >
> > --
> > C. Petronius Dexter
> > Arcoiali scribebat
> > Kalendis Martiis P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

Salvete,

I think a big dose of kudos goes out to Cn. Cornelius Lentulus, for
all his efforts of celebrating and putting together celebrations for
Nova Roma's 12th Birthday. I found the poetry excerpts most
refreshing it's been too long since Venator's wonderful poetry has
graced this list.


Again great job, looking forward to when NR becomes an official "Teenager".



Valete,
R. Cornelia Aeternia

A. Tullia Scholastica quiritibus bonae voluntatis S.P.D.

Recently someone who used to pride himself on his logic seems to have
suffered a breakdown thereof, for suddenly in his opinion, our Vestalis
Maxima is unfit to serve in any other capacity due to her sacerdotal duties
inasmuch as that was the case in antiquity. Based on this, she should not
be allowed to work in the macronational world, or to tend to ailing family
members, or to do much else. Trouble is, NR does not provide room and board
to its (for want of a better term) clergy, and they still have the
inconvenient need to eat, sleep, and pay assorted bills. Some must also
tend to dependents and other family members. That more or less means that
even the Vestales are not housed at state expense, and since they are not,
must work. If one chooses to benefit the Res Publica by standing for
office, we should be glad that a deserving person has chosen to do that, but
no; some feel a compulsion to question the propriety thereof. Well, some of
us can gather what is really going on here, just as some realize what the
grounds for all of the recent complaints on assorted matters actually are.
It does not require a degree in forensic science to figure this one out.
Omnia clariora luce sunt.

Valete.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cato Maiori sal.

And here is the answer I posted in the Senate:

-----------------------------------------

Cato Maiori sal.

The first quote you bring only underscores the stark discrepancy between the
holding of a political office and the power of religious belief. The vestal was
able, through her religious sanctity, to overcome the political authority of a
tribune; this does not mean she was a political power but in fact contrasts
political power with religious authority. And the quote itself recognizes even
this as an "anomaly".

The second quote again shows not the *exercise* of political power, simply the
vestals taking sides in a particular political arena.

The third quote only shows the power of place, not the practice of political
power by the vestals themselves; much like the steps of the US Capitol Building
or the Pentagon become foci of demonstrations and protests.

The fourth quote has no relevance that I can see.

But thank you for answering.

Vale,

Cato


--------------------------------------

Vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> Maior Dextro spd;
> this is a fantasy Cato is constructing to make the Vestales like christian nuns: submissive and apolitical. Very unRoman!
>
> And here is the reply I posted in the Senate: the Vestals were always political. And some historical examples.
>
>
> The Cambridge Companion to the Roman Republic - p. 155
>
> "Vestals were not simply trapped in political controversy; they provoked it. As early as 143. B.C., a Vestal intervened in the rancorous polarized politics characteristic of the late second century and first century b.c. Appius Claudius Pulcher scheduled a triumphal parade that the Senate had refused to authorize.
>
> " A tribune tried to excercise his veto to stop the procession and to pull Claudius from his chariot. His daughter Claudia, a Vestal, clung to her father, staying in the chariot during the parade [Val.Max. 5.4.6 Cic. Cael. 34.
> In a remarkable constitutional anamoly, the personal sanctity of a Vestal trumped the veto power of a tribune"
>
> "In spite of the dangers, some Vestals continued to take political sides openly. Vestals interceded with Sulla on behalf of Julius Caesar's life and property"
>
> Rome and Her Monuments ed Katherine Geffcken
> p.358
> "Very different is the situation of Vesta. Her shrine in Rome is literally the focus of religious and political activity in the Forum, and her priestesses surpass all other public figures in their power to evoke emotional reactions.Thus for Roman oratory, Vesta, the Vestals, the shrine, and its contents, provided a fertile resource, which Cicero, for one, was not slow to exploit."
>
> From Good Goddess to Vestal Virgin - Ariadne Staples. p.144
> "Cicero in defense of Fonteius, exploits that fact that Fonteius' sister was a Vestal [Cic. Font. 21]"
>
> Plutarch; life of Cicero;
> [during the Catilinarian conspiracy, while deciding what sentence to give Catilina; :the rite of Bona Dea took place in Cicero's house:]
>
> Whilst Cicero was doubting what course to take, a portent happened to the women in their sacrificing. For on the altar, where the fire seemed wholly extinguished, a great and bright flame issued forth from the ashes of the burnt wood; at which others were affrighted, but the holy virgins called to Terentia, Cicero's wife, and bade her haste to her husband, and command him to execute what he had resolved for the good of his country, for the goddess had sent a great light to the increase of his safety and glory
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> >
> > Cato Dextero sal.
> >
> > 1. Could the Flamen Dialis hold political office?
> >
> > No
> >
> > 2. Could the rex sacrorum hold political office?
> >
> > No
> >
> > So it's not quite as cut and dried and you might make it seem. Certain religious offices were considered so sacrosanct and special that they were separated from daily life in extraordinary ways. In the same vein, the vestal virgins were viewed with such respect and honor that they were removed from the activities of daily life so that they might perform those same duties on behalf of the whole Roman people.
> >
> > 3. Would you, Dexter, allow a Nova Roman man to become a vestal virgin?
> >
> > Vale!
> >
> > Cato
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Petronius Dexter" <jfarnoud94@> wrote:
> > >
> > > C. Petronius omnibus Quiritibus et mulieribus Novis Romanis s.p.d.,
> > >
> > > 1) In ancient Rome, was it allowed to be both religious and politician?
> > >
> > > Yes, of course. Pontifices, Flamines, Luperci, Salii et cetera can be consuls, praetors, and so one.
> > >
> > > 2) In nova Roma, are women allowed to hold religious positions?
> > >
> > > Yes, of course.
> > >
> > > 3) In nova Roma, are women allowed to hold politic positions?
> > >
> > > Yes, of course.
> > >
> > > 4) So, as for men in ancient Rome, can women in NR be both religious and politiicians?
> > >
> > > Yes, indeed. It is elementary, Watson.
> > >
> > > Optime valete.
> > >
> > > --
> > > C. Petronius Dexter
> > > Arcoiali scribebat
> > > Kalendis Martiis P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>

Dexter Catoni sal.,

Has yahoo a problem? My first answer is not yet visible.

> 1. Could the Flamen Dialis hold political office?
> No

Yes, of course. See the Flamen Dialis elected Aedilis Curulis C. Valerius Flaccus. T. Livy XXXI, 50.


C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
A. d. VI Nonas Martias P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.

Dexter Maiori s.p.d.,

> this is a fantasy Cato is constructing to make the Vestales like christian nuns: submissive and apolitical. Very unRoman!

Yes. We have a Cato who distorts the Roman Catones. I suggest him to read the Satura VIII of Juvenalis. :o)

> And here is the reply I posted in the Senate: the Vestals were always political. And some historical examples.

I know, as the Flamen Dialis C. Valerius Flaccus who was aedilis curulis, too. Cato, as modern politicians, use rhetorical nonsenses to show off. Is he never tired to show us his religious fantasies?

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
A. d. VI Nonas Martias P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.

C. Petronius Tulliae Scholasticae s.p.d.,

> Recently someone who used to pride himself on his logic seems to have suffered a breakdown thereof, for suddenly in his opinion, our Vestalis Maxima is unfit to serve in any other capacity due to her sacerdotal duties inasmuch as that was the case in antiquity.

In fact, Cato is not logic. When our Maxima Vestal stood as a Tribuna Plebis, do you hear a protest from Cato?

Optime vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
A. d. VI Nonas Martias P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.

Dexter Catoni s.p.d.,

> 1. Could the Flamen Dialis hold political office?
> No

Yes, he can. Do you know the Flamen Dialis C. Valerius Flaccus elected aedilis curulis? You do not? So, read Tite Livy XXXI, 50.

> 3. Would you, Dexter, allow a Nova Roman man to become a vestal virgin?

The male virginity is not physically manifeste. :o)

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
A. d. VI Nonas Martias P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.

Cato Dextero sal.

You speak of the following passage:

"C. Valerius Flaccus was in Rome when he was elected, but as he was a Flamen of Jupiter he could not take the oaths, and it was not permitted to hold any magistracy for more than five days without doing so."

In Tacitus' Annals the Flamen Dialis Servius Maluginensis argued that he should be given a province to govern on the grounds that since there often had not been a Flamen Dialis, "with what comparative ease might he be absent for one year's proconsulate?" - in other words, be given a province and pretend he *wasn't* the Flamen Dialis for a year. (Annals, iii.58)

Further, Plutarch states:

"Why were these priests [of Iuppiter] not allowed to hold office nor to solicit it, yet they have the service of a lictor and the right to a curule chair as an honour and a consolation for holding no office?

Is this similar to the conditions in some parts of Greece where the priesthood had a dignity commensurate with that of the kingship, and they appointed as priests no ordinary men?

Or was it rather that since priests have definite duties, whereas officials have duties which are irregular and undefined, if the occasions for these duties happened to coincide, it was impossible for the same man to be present at both, but oftentimes, when both duties were pressing, he had to neglect one of them and at one time commit impiety against the gods, and at another do hurt to his fellow-citizens?

Or did they observe that there is implicit in the government of men no less constraint than authority, and that the ruler of the people, as Hippocrates said of the physician, must see dreadful things and touch dreadful things and reap painful emotions of his own from the ills of other men? Did they, then, think it impious for a man to offer sacrifice to the gods, if he was concerned in pronouncing judgments and sentences of death upon citizens, and often upon kinsmen and members of his household, such as fell to the lot of Brutus?" (Roman Questions 113)

Vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@...> wrote:
>
> Dexter Catoni s.p.d.,
>
> > 1. Could the Flamen Dialis hold political office?
> > No
>
> Yes, he can. Do you know the Flamen Dialis C. Valerius Flaccus elected aedilis curulis? You do not? So, read Tite Livy XXXI, 50.
>
> > 3. Would you, Dexter, allow a Nova Roman man to become a vestal virgin?
>
> The male virginity is not physically manifeste. :o)
>
> C. Petronius Dexter
> Arcoiali scribebat
> A. d. VI Nonas Martias P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
>

Dexter Catoni s.p.d.,

> You speak of the following passage:
> "C. Valerius Flaccus was in Rome when he was elected, but as he was a Flamen of Jupiter he could not take the oaths, and it was not permitted to hold any magistracy for more than five days without doing so."

Yes. But you forgot the following words. This Flamen of Jupiter elected hold his magistracy. His brother taking the oath instead of him. When you quote, do not quote only the words which sustain your point of view. Doing that you show us that you are not quite honest. Here, in French, the following of this action:

"Flaccus demandant une autorisation spéciale, le sénat décida que si l'édile proposait une personne, agréée par les consuls, pour prêter serment à sa place, les consuls, s'ils le voulaient bien, demanderaient aux tribuns de la plèbe de soumettre cet arrangement aux suffrages populaires. Le préteur désigné L. Valérius Flaccus fut choisi pour prêter serment à la place de son frère. Les tribuns proposèrent au peuple, qui donna son accord, que tout se passe comme si l'édile avait personnellement prêté serment."

This example of Flaccus demonstrates that a flamen dialis could be a candidate and a magistrate too. He just shows us, that the crux was the taking of oath. But if another takes oaths instead of him the flamen dialis could be a magistrate. Here the brother of Flaccus took the oaths.

Optime vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
A. d. VI Nonas Martias P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.

Dexter Catoni sal.,

What demonstrates the Gaius Valerius Flaccus' case?

The case was a only politic affair. A flamen Dialis with the taboo of no taking oath. Because the oaths oblige the man who take oath. As "living Jupiter" the flamen Dialis cannot be obliged by anything.

So he may not take oath.

But, he was allowed to be candidate and he was elected as aedilis curulis. Now he was in front of his taboo of no taking oath.

What did the senate? Not a "fatwa" nor a lawsuit of blasphemy against the flamen Dialis elected aedilis curulis. The senate allowed him, if the consuls agreed, to be replace in taking the oath. The consuls agreed, if the tribunes of the plebs agree to convene the Comicia Tributa in order to have the agreement of the people. (

The oath taken by the brother was judged taken by the flamen Dialis himself and the people agreed.

In all this case, nobody spoke about a sacrosanctity, or a blasphemy.

So wise were ancient Romans. Let that be an example to you.

vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
A. d. VI Nonas Martias P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.

M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus: cultoribus Deorum, Quiritibus et omnibus salute plurimam dicit: Hercules felicitatem in nos impertiat

Hodie est ante diem VI Nonas Martias; haec dies comitialis est:

Romulus, Augur and Law-Giver

"It is said also that Romulus first introduced the consecration of fire, and appointed holy virgins to guard it, called Vestals. Others attribute this institution to Numa, although admitting that Romulus was in other ways eminently religious, and they say further that he was a diviner, and carried for purposes of divination the so called lituus, a crooked staff with which those who take auguries from the flight of birds mark out the regions of the heavens. This staff, which was carefully preserved on the Palatine, is said to have disappeared when the city was taken at the time of the Gallic invasion; afterwards, however, when the Barbarians had been expelled, it was found under deep ashes unharmed by the fire, although everything about it was completely destroyed. He also enacted certain laws, and among them one of severity, which forbids a wife to leave her husband, but permits a husband to put away his wife for using poisons, for substituting children, and for adultery; but if a man for any other reason sends his wife away, the law prescribes that half his substance shall belong to his wife, and the other half be consecrate to Ceres; and whosoever puts away his wife, shall make a sacrifice to the Gods of the lower world. It is also a peculiar thing that Romulus ordained no penalty for parricides, but called all murder parricide, looking upon one as abominable, and upon the other as impossible. And for many ages his judgement of such a crime seemed to have been right, for no one did any such deed at Rome for almost six hundred years; but after the war with Hannibal, Lucius Hostius is reported to have been the first parricide. So much, then, may suffice concerning these matters." ~ Plutarch, Life of Romulus 22


"Among our ancestors nothing was done either publicly or privately without first consulting the auspices." ~ Valerius Maximus 2.1.1


The First Augury at Rome

"Remus is said to have been the first to receive an omen: six vultures appeared to him. The augury had just been announced to Romulus when double the number appeared to him. Each was saluted as king by his own party. The one side based their claim on the priority of the appearance, the other on the number of the birds. Then followed an angry altercation; heated passions led to bloodshed; in the tumult Remus was killed. The more common report is that Remus contemptuously jumped over the newly raised walls and was forthwith killed by the enraged Romulus, who exclaimed, "So shall it be henceforth with every one who leaps over my walls." Romulus thus became sole ruler, and the city was called after him, its founder." ~ Titus Livius 1.7

"Why do they make most use of vultures in augury? Is it because twelve vultures appeared to Romulus at the time of the founding of Rome? Or is it because this is the least frequent and familiar of birds? For it is not easy to find a vulture's nest, but these birds suddenly swoop down from afar; wherefore the sight of them is portentous. Or did they learn this also from Hercules? If Herodorus tells the truth, Hercules delighted in the appearance of vultures beyond that of all other birds at the beginning of any undertaking, since he believed that the vulture was the most righteous of all flesh-eating creatures; for, in the first place, it touches no living thing, nor does it kill any animate creature, as do eagles and hawks and the birds that fly by night; but it lives upon that which has been killed in some other way. Then again, even of these it leaves its own kind untouched; for no one has ever seen a vulture feeding on a bird, as eagles and hawks do, pursuing and striking their own kind particularly. And yet, as Aeschylus says, `How can a bird that feeds on birds be pure?' And we may say that it is the most harmless of birds to men, since it neither destroys any fruit or plant nor injures any domesticated animal. But if, as the Egyptians fable, the whole species is female, and they conceive by receiving the breath of the East Wind, even as the trees do by receiving the West Wind, then it is credible that the signs from them are altogether unwavering and certain. But in the case of the other birds, their excitements in the mating season, as well as their abductions, retreats, and pursuits, have much that is disturbing and unsteady." ~Plutarch, Roman Questions 93


"Why of birds is the one called "left-hand" a bird of good omen? Is this not really true, but is it the peculiarity of the language which throws many off the track? For their word for 'left' is sinistrum; 'to permit' is sinere; and they say sine when they urge giving permission. Accordingly the bird which permits the augural action to be taken, that is, the avis sinisteria, the vulgar are not correct in assuming to be sinistra and in calling it so. Or is it, as Dionysius says, that when Ascanius, son of Aeneas, was drawing up his army against Mezentius, and his men were taking the auspices, a flash of lightning, ewhich portended victory, appeared on the left, and from that time on they observe this practice in divination? Or is it true, as certain other authorities affirm, that this happened to Aeneas? As a matter of fact, the Thebans, when they had routed and overpowered their enemies on the left wing at Leuctra, continued thereafter to assign to the left the chief command in all battles. Or is it rather, as Juba declares, that as anyone looks eastward, the north is on the left, and some make out the north to be the right, or upper, side of the universe? But consider whether it be not that the left is by nature the weaker side, and they that preside over auguries try to strengthen fand prop its deficient powers by this method of equalization. Or was it that they believed earthly and mortal matters to be antithetical to things heavenly and divine, and so thought that whatever was on the left for us the gods were sending forth from the right?" ~ Plutarch, Roman Questions 78


Today's thought from Epictetus, Discourse 3.22, concerns becoming the ideal philosopher:

"Reflect more carefully, know thyself, consult the divinity, without God attempt nothing; for if He shall advise you, be assured that He intends you to become great or to receive many blows. For this very amusing quality is conjoined to a Cynic: he must be flogged like an ass, and when he is flogged, he must love those who flog him, as if he were the father of all, and the brother of all."

Ave Lentule,



No better citizens -- no better exemplars of Roman virtue -- could represent
us than yourself and Livia Plauta.



O Concordia, stay with us. Our nationhood depends on you.



Vale,

L. Aemilia





_____

From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Cn. Cornelius Lentulus
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 5:41 PM
To: Nova Roma ML; NovaRoma-Announce
Cc: Religio Romana List
Subject: [Nova-Roma] CONCORDIALIA RITUAL for the 12th Anniversary of Nova
Roma - WITH PHOTOS!





WITH PHOTO REPORT AT:
http://novaroma.
<http://novaroma.org/nr/Ludi_Novi_Romani/MMDCCLXIII/Concordialia>
org/nr/Ludi_Novi_Romani/MMDCCLXIII/Concordialia

-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
--
CN CORNELIUS LENTULUS : PONTIFEX : SACERDOS CONCORDIAE : QUIRITIBUS : S P D


Salvete et avete, Novi Romani Quirites!


Vivat Nova Roma!


This
day is when everything was started - because of which we can be here:
today, 12 years ago, Nova Roma was founded, a nation was born.

This
nation wants a common goal: to restore Rome. But to this goal, we have
to work efficiently, cooperatively, with united force, common spirit,
with one will and one faith. Therefore we chose to worship Goddes
Concordia, the Goddess of the Nova Roman People's Concord - She is whom
we need first and foremost in this 12-years-old Republic.

TODAY I performed the ceremony for the 12th Anniversary of the founding of
our Republic at Livia Plauta's house, before her home altar. We celebrated
together representing all Nova Romans, and PHOTOS were taken about the event
so that you all can be with us in spirit. The photos have been taken just
hours ago, the scent of the incense is just smelling everywhere in Livia's
house, the fireplace is still hot, Concordia is just enjoying the offerings.

We sacrificed milk, wine, incense, bay leaves, and 3 libums, to Concordia
for protecting Nova Roma, and for Her citizens.

You can see the PHOTO REPORT about the ceremony here:

http://novaroma.
<http://novaroma.org/nr/Ludi_Novi_Romani/MMDCCLXIII/Concordialia>
org/nr/Ludi_Novi_Romani/MMDCCLXIII/Concordialia

<http://novaroma.
<http://novaroma.org/nr/Ludi_Novi_Romani/MMDCCLXIII/Concordialia>
org/nr/Ludi_Novi_Romani/MMDCCLXIII/Concordialia>


The sacrifice and ceremony has been this in which we included Mars as his
feriae is today:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1. SACRIFICE TO CONCORDIA POPULI NOVI ROMANI QUIRITIUM

Favete linguis!

(Beginning of the sacrifice.)

PRAEFATIO

Dea Concordia,
Concordia Novae Romae,
Concordia Senatus Populique Novi Romani,
Concordia Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
Concordia civium Novorum Romanorum,
Concordia deorum et mortalium,
Dea pacis et salutis et gloriae Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
hisce Kalendis Martiis anni duodecimi Novae Romae conditae,
hoc die festivissimo et sanctissimo Novae Romae conditae,
te hoc ture commovendo bonas preces precor,
uti sies volens propitia Populo Novo Romano Quiritibus, Reique Publicae
Populi Novi Romani Quiritium, mihi, domo, familiae!

(Incense is placed in the focus of the altar.)

Dea Concordia,
Concordia Novae Romae,
Concordia Senatus Populique Novi Romani,
Concordia Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
Concordia civium Novorum Romanorum,
Concordia deorum et mortalium,
Dea pacis et salutis et gloriae Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
uti te ture commovendo bonas preces bene precatus sum,
eiusdem rei ergo macte lacte inferio esto!"

(Libation of milk is made.)

PRECATIO

Concordia Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
Concordia Senatus Populique Novi Romani,
Concordia Novae Romae,
Concordia deorum et mortalium,
Dea pacis et salutis et gloriae Senatus Populique Novi Romani,
fortitudo et firmitas nostra,
hisce Kalendis Martiis anni duodecimi Novae Romae conditae,
hoc die festivissimo et sanctissimo quo Nova Roma condita est,
te precor, veneror, quaesoque obtestorque:
uti pacem concordiamque constantem societati Novae Romae tribuas;
utique Rem Publicam Populi Novi Romani Quiritium confirmes, augeas, adiuves,
omnibusque discordiis liberes;
utique Res Publica Populi Novi Romani Quiritium semper floreat;
atque hoc anno anniversario duodecimo Novae Romae conditae convalescat;
atque pax et concordia, salus et gloria Novae Romae omni tempore crescat,
utique Populo Novo Romano Quiritibus,
Reique Publicae Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
mihi, domo, familiae
omnes in hoc anno tertio decimo Novae Romae eventus bonos faustosque esse
siris; utique sies volens propitia
Populo Novo Romano Quiritibus,
Reique Publicae Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
magistratibus, consulibus, praetoribus Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
tribunis Plebis Novae Romanae,
Senatui Novo Romano,
omnibus civibus, viris et mulieribus, pueris et puellabus Novis Romanis,
mihi, domo, familiae!

SACRIFICIUM

Sicut verba nuncupavi,
quaeque ita faxis,
uti ego me sentio dicere:
harum rerum ergo macte
his tribus libis libandis,
hoc vino lacte melleque mixto libando,
hoc ture ommovendo
his laureis sacrificandis
esto fito volens propitia
et hoc anno anniversario duodecimo Novae Romae conditae et semper
Populo Novo Romano Quiritibus,
Reique Publicae Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
magistratibus, consulibus, praetoribus Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
tribunis Plebis Novae Romanae,
Senatui Novo Romano,
omnibus civibus, viris et mulierbus, pueris et puellabus Novis Romanis,
mihi, domo, familiae!

(Libation of 3 liba, laurels, and wine, milk and honey is made and incense
is sacrificed.)

REDDITIO

Dea Concordia,
Concordia Novae Romae,
Concordia Senatus Populique Novi Romani,
Concordia Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
Concordia civium Novorum Romanorum,
Concordia deorum et mortalium,
Dea pacis et salutis et gloriae Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
uti te ture commovendo et vino libando bonas preces bene precatus sum,
earundem rerum ergo macte lacte inferio esto!

(Libation of milk is made)

Mars Pater,
cuius mensis et feriae hodie sunt,

earundem rerum ergo,

macte vino inferio esto fito volens propitius

Populo Novo Romano Quiritibus,

Reique Publicae Populi Novi Romani Quiritium!

(Libation of wine is made)

Ilicet!

(End of the sacrifice.)

PIACULUM

Iane,
Concordia Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
Iuppiter Optime Maxmime,
Iuno, Minerva, Mars,
Omnes Di Immortales quocumque nomine:
si quidquam vobis in hac caerimonia displicet,
hoc vino inferio veniam peto et vitium meum expio.

(Libation of wine is made.)

VIVAT NOVA ROMA ANNORUM XII !!!
NOVA ROMA XII !!!

Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus,
P O N T I F E X
SACERDOS CONCORDIAE
------------------------------------------

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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14:34:00




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cato Dextero sal.

Perhaps. But *our* law does not allow it, so a Flamen Dialis, if we ever have one, could not become a magistrate.

And what about the words "because he was not allowed to take an oath" - this certainly says something about the sacred nature of the office in contrast to the saecular powers of a magistrate.

Vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@...> wrote:
>
> Dexter Catoni sal.,
>
> What demonstrates the Gaius Valerius Flaccus' case?
>
> The case was a only politic affair. A flamen Dialis with the taboo of no taking oath. Because the oaths oblige the man who take oath. As "living Jupiter" the flamen Dialis cannot be obliged by anything.
>
> So he may not take oath.
>
> But, he was allowed to be candidate and he was elected as aedilis curulis. Now he was in front of his taboo of no taking oath.
>
> What did the senate? Not a "fatwa" nor a lawsuit of blasphemy against the flamen Dialis elected aedilis curulis. The senate allowed him, if the consuls agreed, to be replace in taking the oath. The consuls agreed, if the tribunes of the plebs agree to convene the Comicia Tributa in order to have the agreement of the people. (
>
> The oath taken by the brother was judged taken by the flamen Dialis himself and the people agreed.
>
> In all this case, nobody spoke about a sacrosanctity, or a blasphemy.
>
> So wise were ancient Romans. Let that be an example to you.
>
> vale.
>
> C. Petronius Dexter
> Arcoiali scribebat
> A. d. VI Nonas Martias P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
>

Dexter Catoni s.p.d.,

> Perhaps. But *our* law does not allow it, so a Flamen Dialis, if we ever have one, could not become a magistrate.

What law does not allow it?

> And what about the words "because he was not allowed to take an oath"

I already explained you.

Vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
A. d. VI Nonas Martias P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.

<<--- On Mon, 3/1/10, Jennifer Harris <cyannerose@...> wrote:

Salvete,

I think a big dose of kudos goes out to Cn. Cornelius Lentulus, for
all his efforts of celebrating and putting together celebrations for
Nova Roma's 12th Birthday. I found the poetry excerpts most
refreshing it's been too long since Venator's wonderful poetry has
graced this list.>>
 
 
Absolutely! The posts, the ritual, the photos, everything just brought more meaning to the importance of the day and Venator's poetry was the perfect touch. Thank you, Lentulus!


<<Again great job, looking forward to when NR becomes an official "Teenager".>>
 

They grow up so fast. *sniff, sniff* :)
 
Maxima Valeria Messallina





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

<<--- On Mon, 3/1/10, A. Tullia Scholastica <fororom@...> wrote:

A. Tullia Scholastica quiritibus bonae voluntatis S.P.D.

Recently someone who used to pride himself on his logic seems to have
suffered a breakdown thereof, for suddenly in his opinion, our Vestalis
Maxima is unfit to serve in any other capacity due to her sacerdotal duties
inasmuch as that was the case in antiquity. Based on this, she should not
be allowed to work in the macronational world, or to tend to ailing family
members, or to do much else. Trouble is, NR does not provide room and board
to its (for want of a better term) clergy, and they still have the
inconvenient need to eat, sleep, and pay assorted bills. Some must also
tend to dependents and other family members. That more or less means that
even the Vestales are not housed at state expense, and since they are not,
must work. If one chooses to benefit the Res Publica by standing for
office, we should be glad that a deserving person has chosen to do that, but
no; some feel a compulsion to question the propriety thereof. Well, some of
us can gather what is really going on here, just as some realize what the
grounds for all of the recent complaints on assorted matters actually are.
It does not require a degree in forensic science to figure this one out.
Omnia clariora luce sunt.>>
 
 
Oh so true! Under that type of thinking, I wouldn't be able to use a washing machine or a dish washer or cook as the ancient Vestals had a retinue of servants to do everything for them - so where are my servants? LOL
I wouldn't be able to ride a horse (GRRR), drive a car, file income tax, go shopping, watch TV (hey!), or even use my laptop! I'd have to communicate with you by carrier pigeon I guess. LOL
I couldn't even have coffee or chocolate and warning: no coffee, no chocolate = one SUPER cranky Vestal - and I don't think you want that! LOL
 
Vale bene,
 
Maxima Valeria Messallina




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Publius Ann�us Constantinus Placidus omnibus S.D.

Here is, for you all, the second item of the "Ipse Dixit" Latin quiz.

*ITEM #2: Errare humanum est, perseverare autem diabolicum

*1. What is the literal English translation of this phrase?
2. Who wrote it?
3. What is the actual meaning of the phrase in its common usage?

Please send your answers privately to me, ugo.coppola@... - *do not
use the main NR list!

*Also, please do not use Wikipedia, Google, or the Internet in general. ;-)
*
*For scores, rules and current standings of this quiz, please see the
"Ipse Dixit" section on this page:
http://novaroma.org/nr/Ludi_Novi_Romani/MMDCCLXIII

Optime valete omnes,
P. Ann. Con. Placidus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

<<--- On Mon, 3/1/10, petronius_dexter <jfarnoud94@...> wrote:

C. Petronius Tulliae Scholasticae s.p.d.,

> Recently someone who used to pride himself on his logic seems to have suffered a breakdown thereof, for suddenly in his opinion, our Vestalis Maxima is unfit to serve in any other capacity due to her sacerdotal duties inasmuch as that was the case in antiquity.

In fact, Cato is not logic. When our Maxima Vestal stood as a Tribuna Plebis, do you hear a protest from Cato?>>
 
 
Nope, not a peep out of him. Or last year when Paulinus appointed me as Senatrix, not one word of protest was heard from either Cato or Sulla. NOT ONE WORD! No "is this the way we want to go or is this good for the republic or the sacra publica?" Nope, none of that.
Of course, since the rest of the appointees were their friends, that might explain it.
 
Maxima Valeria Messallina




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

But in the end, they found a way to do it and still respect the sacred nature of the office. That's the point. As Dexter says, see how wise were the ancient Romans. Let that be an example to us, Nova Romans. We, too, can find ways to do what needs to be done and still respect the sacred nature of every religious office.
 
Maxima Valeria Messallina
 


<<--- On Tue, 3/2/10, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
Cato Dextero sal.

Perhaps. But *our* law does not allow it, so a Flamen Dialis, if we ever have one, could not become a magistrate.

And what about the words "because he was not allowed to take an oath" - this certainly says something about the sacred nature of the office in contrast to the saecular powers of a magistrate.

Vale,

Cato>>
 
 

>--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@ ...> wrote:
>
> Dexter Catoni sal.,
>
> What demonstrates the Gaius Valerius Flaccus' case?
>
> The case was a only politic affair. A flamen Dialis with the taboo of no taking oath. Because the oaths oblige the man who take oath. As "living Jupiter" the flamen Dialis cannot be obliged by anything.
>
> So he may not take oath.
>
> But, he was allowed to be candidate and he was elected as aedilis curulis. Now he was in front of his taboo of no taking oath.
>
> What did the senate? Not a "fatwa" nor a lawsuit of blasphemy against the flamen Dialis elected aedilis curulis. The senate allowed him, if the consuls agreed, to be replace in taking the oath. The consuls agreed, if the tribunes of the plebs agree to convene the Comicia Tributa in order to have the agreement of the people. (
>
> The oath taken by the brother was judged taken by the flamen Dialis himself and the people agreed.
>
> In all this case, nobody spoke about a sacrosanctity, or a blasphemy.
>
> So wise were ancient Romans. Let that be an example to you.
>
> vale.
>
> C. Petronius Dexter
> Arcoiali scribebat
> A. d. VI Nonas Martias P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

And thank you, Livia, too!


<<--- On Tue, 3/2/10, Maxima Valeria Messallina <maximavaleriamessallina@...> wrote:

>>>--- On Mon, 3/1/10, Jennifer Harris <cyannerose@gmail. com> wrote:

Salvete,

I think a big dose of kudos goes out to Cn. Cornelius Lentulus, for
all his efforts of celebrating and putting together celebrations for
Nova Roma's 12th Birthday. I found the poetry excerpts most
refreshing it's been too long since Venator's wonderful poetry has
graced this list.<<<
 
 
Absolutely! The posts, the ritual, the photos, everything just brought more meaning to the importance of the day and Venator's poetry was the perfect touch. Thank you, Lentulus!


<<Again great job, looking forward to when NR becomes an official "Teenager".> >
 
They grow up so fast. *sniff, sniff* :)
 
Maxima Valeria Messallina>>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

<<-- On Tue, 3/2/10, Ugo Coppola <ugo.coppola@...> wrote:
 
Publius Annæus Constantinus Placidus omnibus S.D.

Here is, for you all, the second item of the "Ipse Dixit" Latin quiz.

*ITEM #2: Errare humanum est, perseverare autem diabolicum

*1. What is the literal English translation of this phrase?
2. Who wrote it?
3. What is the actual meaning of the phrase in its common usage?>>
 
 
1. It is human to err, to persist is diabolical.
2. Seneca the Younger
3. To err is human, to persist is stupid.
 
Maxima Valeria Messallina




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm so sorry! Forgot to change the addy! A thousand apologies!

--- On Tue, 3/2/10, Maxima Valeria Messallina <maximavaleriamessallina@...> wrote:


From: Maxima Valeria Messallina <maximavaleriamessallina@...>
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] LUDI NOVI ROMANI 2763 AUC - IPSE DIXIT, EDITION III: Item #2
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, March 2, 2010, 8:54 AM


 



<<-- On Tue, 3/2/10, Ugo Coppola <ugo.coppola@ tin.it> wrote:
 
Publius Annæus Constantinus Placidus omnibus S.D.

Here is, for you all, the second item of the "Ipse Dixit" Latin quiz.

*ITEM #2: Errare humanum est, perseverare autem diabolicum






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve,

Well, I can't help but point out the obvious observation that simply because something was done in antiquity it doesn't mean that it was the norm or expected behavior in antiquity. Were they really wise in doing this? Religious reconstruction isn't simply collating all of the possible behaviors concerning a particular religious tradition (although, that is part of the process), but also evaluating it in terms of consistency and evolution, not to mention a critical appraisal of the sources themselves. Are you ready to trust Livy on Middle Republican history knowing that much of his history is a fanciful forgery based on Valerius Antias?

Even if one were to take this account seriously, it simply outlines the contours of the possible, not the contours of the probable or preferable. The latter is something that needs to be hashed out in the particular community. In our case, it means it is something that needs to be argued about in our forum.

When it comes to reconstruction, no classical source is a trump card that "proves" the validity of some behavior, but rather such sources are the point of departure for discussion about historicity, reality and the application of tradition to modern conditions.

Vale,

Gualterus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Maxima Valeria Messallina <maximavaleriamessallina@...> wrote:
>
> But in the end, they found a way to do it and still respect the sacred nature of the office. That's the point. As Dexter says, see how wise were the ancient Romans. Let that be an example to us, Nova Romans. We, too, can find ways to do what needs to be done and still respect the sacred nature of every religious office.
>  
> Maxima Valeria Messallina
>  
>
>
> <<--- On Tue, 3/2/10, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
> Cato Dextero sal.
>
> Perhaps. But *our* law does not allow it, so a Flamen Dialis, if we ever have one, could not become a magistrate.
>
> And what about the words "because he was not allowed to take an oath" - this certainly says something about the sacred nature of the office in contrast to the saecular powers of a magistrate.
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato>>
>  
>  
> >--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > Dexter Catoni sal.,
> >
> > What demonstrates the Gaius Valerius Flaccus' case?
> >
> > The case was a only politic affair. A flamen Dialis with the taboo of no taking oath. Because the oaths oblige the man who take oath. As "living Jupiter" the flamen Dialis cannot be obliged by anything.
> >
> > So he may not take oath.
> >
> > But, he was allowed to be candidate and he was elected as aedilis curulis. Now he was in front of his taboo of no taking oath.
> >
> > What did the senate? Not a "fatwa" nor a lawsuit of blasphemy against the flamen Dialis elected aedilis curulis. The senate allowed him, if the consuls agreed, to be replace in taking the oath. The consuls agreed, if the tribunes of the plebs agree to convene the Comicia Tributa in order to have the agreement of the people. (
> >
> > The oath taken by the brother was judged taken by the flamen Dialis himself and the people agreed.
> >
> > In all this case, nobody spoke about a sacrosanctity, or a blasphemy.
> >
> > So wise were ancient Romans. Let that be an example to you.
> >
> > vale.
> >
> > C. Petronius Dexter
> > Arcoiali scribebat
> > A. d. VI Nonas Martias P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Cn. Lentulus Quiritibus sal.

This is Day 2, so the theme of my questions will be Year 2 of Nova Roma, but as nobody except Ti. Galerius Paulinus answered yesterday's questions, yesterday's questions are asked again, together with today's ones.

AND THANK TO Ti. Paulinus, who, so far, seems to be the only citizen knowledgeable of our Republic, and the only dedicated to celebrate our 12 years.

----------------------------------------------------------------
QUESTIONS - DAY 2 - YEAR 2

Q3. What was the most memorable event in 2752 AUC?
Q4. Name 3 citizens who received Nova Roman citizenship in year two, and are still within the republic as citizens.


------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
QUESTIONS - DAY 1 - YEAR 2

Q1. What was the address of the original mailing list of Nova Roma, settled in the First Year?
Q2. What was the exact date of the declaring of our (limited) sovereignty?
------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -



RULES OF THE NOVA ROMAN HISTORY QUIZ:

See:

http://novaroma.org/nr/Ludi_Novi_Romani/MMDCCLXIII

Each day for the next twelve days one or two questions will be posted that relate to the history of Nova Roma, exactly to that year of Nova Roma which equals to the number of the day of the Ludi Novi Romani, and the day of March.

So at the first day of the Ludi Novi Romani, there will be two questions about the first year of Nova Roma.

1. Each correct answer is worth 1 point.
An extra point may be awarded for an especially detailed and
excellent answer.
2. Answers are to be sent to my e-mail address <cn_corn_lent@ yahoo.it> within 24 hours after the posting of the questions.

3. My decision is final in interpreting what is and
what isn't a correct answer.

--------------------------------------------------
Visit the the Ludi Novi Romani page:

http://novaroma.org/nr/Ludi_Novi_Romani/MMDCCLXIII

Cn. Lentulus pontifex Quiritibus sal.

During the 12 days of the Ludi Novi Romani, we commemorate about the 12 years of Nova Roma, and each day we honour one of the 12 Olympic Gods, the Di Consentes.

Yesterday was the traditional date on which the Vestals re-lighted the sacred fire of Goddess Vesta. Fire is the beginning of culture. Culture is fire, both literally and figuratively. Vesta re-lighted Her fire in us, Nova Romans, 12 years ago, and it is still burning and urging us to do something for the regeneration of the Roman life.

Today it is Dies Ater, but commemorating about Vesta and Her sacred light, we can make less dark this second day of March, the only dark day of the Ludi Novi Romani.

Pray to Vesta, may She brighten the public life of Nova Roma with Her blessings, blessings on our houses, families and on the fire in our hearts that moves us to live for Rome.


Visit and read, and if you can, expand this article:

http://novaroma.org/nr/Vesta

VIVAT NOVA ROMA ANNORUM XII

Too true. We can find a whole slew of things the Ancients did that wouldn't be a good idea to repeat and that, were they here today, they probably wouldn't advocate either. Just because a Tribune was killed in the senate by a mob, should that be considered an excuse for us to do so today? After all, the wise old Romans did it! Look how clever they were! Why, let's find the nearest tribune and kill them!

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gualterus_graecus" <waltms1@...> wrote:
>
>
> Salve,
>
> Well, I can't help but point out the obvious observation that simply because something was done in antiquity it doesn't mean that it was the norm or expected behavior in antiquity. Were they really wise in doing this? Religious reconstruction isn't simply collating all of the possible behaviors concerning a particular religious tradition (although, that is part of the process), but also evaluating it in terms of consistency and evolution, not to mention a critical appraisal of the sources themselves. Are you ready to trust Livy on Middle Republican history knowing that much of his history is a fanciful forgery based on Valerius Antias?
>
> Even if one were to take this account seriously, it simply outlines the contours of the possible, not the contours of the probable or preferable. The latter is something that needs to be hashed out in the particular community. In our case, it means it is something that needs to be argued about in our forum.
>
> When it comes to reconstruction, no classical source is a trump card that "proves" the validity of some behavior, but rather such sources are the point of departure for discussion about historicity, reality and the application of tradition to modern conditions.
>
> Vale,
>
> Gualterus
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Maxima Valeria Messallina <maximavaleriamessallina@> wrote:
> >
> > But in the end, they found a way to do it and still respect the sacred nature of the office. That's the point. As Dexter says, see how wise were the ancient Romans. Let that be an example to us, Nova Romans. We, too, can find ways to do what needs to be done and still respect the sacred nature of every religious office.
> >  
> > Maxima Valeria Messallina
> >  
> >
> >
> > <<--- On Tue, 3/2/10, Cato <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > Cato Dextero sal.
> >
> > Perhaps. But *our* law does not allow it, so a Flamen Dialis, if we ever have one, could not become a magistrate.
> >
> > And what about the words "because he was not allowed to take an oath" - this certainly says something about the sacred nature of the office in contrast to the saecular powers of a magistrate.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Cato>>
> >  
> >  
> > >--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@ ...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Dexter Catoni sal.,
> > >
> > > What demonstrates the Gaius Valerius Flaccus' case?
> > >
> > > The case was a only politic affair. A flamen Dialis with the taboo of no taking oath. Because the oaths oblige the man who take oath. As "living Jupiter" the flamen Dialis cannot be obliged by anything.
> > >
> > > So he may not take oath.
> > >
> > > But, he was allowed to be candidate and he was elected as aedilis curulis. Now he was in front of his taboo of no taking oath.
> > >
> > > What did the senate? Not a "fatwa" nor a lawsuit of blasphemy against the flamen Dialis elected aedilis curulis. The senate allowed him, if the consuls agreed, to be replace in taking the oath. The consuls agreed, if the tribunes of the plebs agree to convene the Comicia Tributa in order to have the agreement of the people. (
> > >
> > > The oath taken by the brother was judged taken by the flamen Dialis himself and the people agreed.
> > >
> > > In all this case, nobody spoke about a sacrosanctity, or a blasphemy.
> > >
> > > So wise were ancient Romans. Let that be an example to you.
> > >
> > > vale.
> > >
> > > C. Petronius Dexter
> > > Arcoiali scribebat
> > > A. d. VI Nonas Martias P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

Salvete;
if you read Wildfangs' book on the Vestals and Bauman's on Women's political Activity in Rome, you find entire chapters devoted to the Vestals and their political actions. It's not even an issue.

The cultural maxim is that for Romans politics and religion mixed. Nova Roma has the duty to follow Roman culture.

Otherwise we're just a bunch of neo-pagans. And since those who argue against this aren't even pagan, I find the entire discussion a waste of time.
vale
Maior

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gualterus_graecus" <waltms1@...> wrote:
>
>
> Salve,
>
> Well, I can't help but point out the obvious observation that simply because something was done in antiquity it doesn't mean that it was the norm or expected behavior in antiquity. Were they really wise in doing this? Religious reconstruction isn't simply collating all of the possible behaviors concerning a particular religious tradition (although, that is part of the process), but also evaluating it in terms of consistency and evolution, not to mention a critical appraisal of the sources themselves. Are you ready to trust Livy on Middle Republican history knowing that much of his history is a fanciful forgery based on Valerius Antias?
>
> Even if one were to take this account seriously, it simply outlines the contours of the possible, not the contours of the probable or preferable. The latter is something that needs to be hashed out in the particular community. In our case, it means it is something that needs to be argued about in our forum.
>
> When it comes to reconstruction, no classical source is a trump card that "proves" the validity of some behavior, but rather such sources are the point of departure for discussion about historicity, reality and the application of tradition to modern conditions.
>
> Vale,
>
> Gualterus
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Maxima Valeria Messallina <maximavaleriamessallina@> wrote:
> >
> > But in the end, they found a way to do it and still respect the sacred nature of the office. That's the point. As Dexter says, see how wise were the ancient Romans. Let that be an example to us, Nova Romans. We, too, can find ways to do what needs to be done and still respect the sacred nature of every religious office.
> >
> > Maxima Valeria Messallina
> >
> >
> >
> > <<--- On Tue, 3/2/10, Cato <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > Cato Dextero sal.
> >
> > Perhaps. But *our* law does not allow it, so a Flamen Dialis, if we ever have one, could not become a magistrate.
> >
> > And what about the words "because he was not allowed to take an oath" - this certainly says something about the sacred nature of the office in contrast to the saecular powers of a magistrate.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Cato>>
> >
> >
> > >--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@ ...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Dexter Catoni sal.,
> > >
> > > What demonstrates the Gaius Valerius Flaccus' case?
> > >
> > > The case was a only politic affair. A flamen Dialis with the taboo of no taking oath. Because the oaths oblige the man who take oath. As "living Jupiter" the flamen Dialis cannot be obliged by anything.
> > >
> > > So he may not take oath.
> > >
> > > But, he was allowed to be candidate and he was elected as aedilis curulis. Now he was in front of his taboo of no taking oath.
> > >
> > > What did the senate? Not a "fatwa" nor a lawsuit of blasphemy against the flamen Dialis elected aedilis curulis. The senate allowed him, if the consuls agreed, to be replace in taking the oath. The consuls agreed, if the tribunes of the plebs agree to convene the Comicia Tributa in order to have the agreement of the people. (
> > >
> > > The oath taken by the brother was judged taken by the flamen Dialis himself and the people agreed.
> > >
> > > In all this case, nobody spoke about a sacrosanctity, or a blasphemy.
> > >
> > > So wise were ancient Romans. Let that be an example to you.
> > >
> > > vale.
> > >
> > > C. Petronius Dexter
> > > Arcoiali scribebat
> > > A. d. VI Nonas Martias P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

Salve,

On that note, I think a good question would be what is considered to be
acceptable in modern times. What should we as Nova Romans keep and what
should perhaps be not considered "unwise" to follow in these modern times.
I don't know about anyone else but bailing people out of jail for on a
constant basis is not my cup of tea.

Vale,
Aeternia

On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 12:54 PM, lucius_cornelius_cicero
<Cicero@...>wrote:

>
>
> Too true. We can find a whole slew of things the Ancients did that wouldn't
> be a good idea to repeat and that, were they here today, they probably
> wouldn't advocate either. Just because a Tribune was killed in the senate by
> a mob, should that be considered an excuse for us to do so today? After all,
> the wise old Romans did it! Look how clever they were! Why, let's find the
> nearest tribune and kill them!
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "gualterus_graecus" <waltms1@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Salve,
> >
> > Well, I can't help but point out the obvious observation that simply
> because something was done in antiquity it doesn't mean that it was the norm
> or expected behavior in antiquity. Were they really wise in doing this?
> Religious reconstruction isn't simply collating all of the possible
> behaviors concerning a particular religious tradition (although, that is
> part of the process), but also evaluating it in terms of consistency and
> evolution, not to mention a critical appraisal of the sources themselves.
> Are you ready to trust Livy on Middle Republican history knowing that much
> of his history is a fanciful forgery based on Valerius Antias?
> >
> > Even if one were to take this account seriously, it simply outlines the
> contours of the possible, not the contours of the probable or preferable.
> The latter is something that needs to be hashed out in the particular
> community. In our case, it means it is something that needs to be argued
> about in our forum.
> >
> > When it comes to reconstruction, no classical source is a trump card that
> "proves" the validity of some behavior, but rather such sources are the
> point of departure for discussion about historicity, reality and the
> application of tradition to modern conditions.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Gualterus
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>, Maxima
> Valeria Messallina <maximavaleriamessallina@> wrote:
> > >
> > > But in the end, they found a way to do it and still respect the sacred
> nature of the office. That's the point. As Dexter says, see how wise were
> the ancient Romans. Let that be an example to us, Nova Romans. We, too, can
> find ways to do what needs to be done and still respect the sacred nature of
> every religious office.
> > >
> > > Maxima Valeria Messallina
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > <<--- On Tue, 3/2/10, Cato <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > > Cato Dextero sal.
> > >
> > > Perhaps. But *our* law does not allow it, so a Flamen Dialis, if we
> ever have one, could not become a magistrate.
> > >
> > > And what about the words "because he was not allowed to take an oath" -
> this certainly says something about the sacred nature of the office in
> contrast to the saecular powers of a magistrate.
> > >
> > > Vale,
> > >
> > > Cato>>
> > >
> > >
> > > >--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Dexter Catoni sal.,
> > > >
> > > > What demonstrates the Gaius Valerius Flaccus' case?
> > > >
> > > > The case was a only politic affair. A flamen Dialis with the taboo of
> no taking oath. Because the oaths oblige the man who take oath. As "living
> Jupiter" the flamen Dialis cannot be obliged by anything.
> > > >
> > > > So he may not take oath.
> > > >
> > > > But, he was allowed to be candidate and he was elected as aedilis
> curulis. Now he was in front of his taboo of no taking oath.
> > > >
> > > > What did the senate? Not a "fatwa" nor a lawsuit of blasphemy against
> the flamen Dialis elected aedilis curulis. The senate allowed him, if the
> consuls agreed, to be replace in taking the oath. The consuls agreed, if the
> tribunes of the plebs agree to convene the Comicia Tributa in order to have
> the agreement of the people. (
> > > >
> > > > The oath taken by the brother was judged taken by the flamen Dialis
> himself and the people agreed.
> > > >
> > > > In all this case, nobody spoke about a sacrosanctity, or a blasphemy.
>
> > > >
> > > > So wise were ancient Romans. Let that be an example to you.
> > > >
> > > > vale.
> > > >
> > > > C. Petronius Dexter
> > > > Arcoiali scribebat
> > > > A. d. VI Nonas Martias P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Congratulations to Paulinus!
I certainly am not as familiar with Nova Roma history as I would like to be. However, my dear Lentulus, I would like to think that I, too, am dedicated to celebrating Nova Roma's anniversary and lots more Citizens as well.
Wanna start a NR history class? :)
 
Vale bene,
 
Maxima Valeria Messallina
 


<<--- On Tue, 3/2/10, Cn. Cornelius Lentulus <cn_corn_lent@...> wrote:
Cn. Lentulus Quiritibus sal.

This is Day 2, so the theme of my questions will be Year 2 of Nova Roma, but as nobody except Ti. Galerius Paulinus answered yesterday's questions, yesterday's questions are asked again, together with today's ones.

AND THANK TO Ti. Paulinus, who, so far, seems to be the only citizen knowledgeable of our Republic, and the only dedicated to celebrate our 12 years.

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
QUESTIONS - DAY 2 - YEAR 2

Q3. What was the most memorable event in 2752 AUC?
Q4. Name 3 citizens who received Nova Roman citizenship in year two, and are still within the republic as citizens.

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
QUESTIONS - DAY 1 - YEAR 2

Q1. What was the address of the original mailing list of Nova Roma, settled in the First Year?
Q2. What was the exact date of the declaring of our (limited) sovereignty?>>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve, Valeria et salvete!

Of course, I was just teasing the people, I did not mean it seriously that Paulinus is the only dedicated citizen :)

But come on, try this Certamen Historicum: you can use the sources online, and there our website, too!

Valete!
Vivat Nova Roma annorum XII!

CN LENTVLVS

--- Mar 2/3/10, Maxima Valeria Messallina <maximavaleriamessallina@...> ha scritto:

Da: Maxima Valeria Messallina <maximavaleriamessallina@...>
Oggetto: Re: [Nova-Roma] LUDI NR: Certamen Historicum (Day 2 - Year 2)
A: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Data: Martedì 2 marzo 2010, 21:53







 









Congratulations to Paulinus!

I certainly am not as familiar with Nova Roma history as I would like to be. However, my dear Lentulus, I would like to think that I, too, am dedicated to celebrating Nova Roma's anniversary and lots more Citizens as well.

Wanna start a NR history class? :)

 

Vale bene,

 

Maxima Valeria Messallina

 



<<--- On Tue, 3/2/10, Cn. Cornelius Lentulus <cn_corn_lent@ yahoo.it> wrote:

Cn. Lentulus Quiritibus sal.



This is Day 2, so the theme of my questions will be Year 2 of Nova Roma, but as nobody except Ti. Galerius Paulinus answered yesterday's questions, yesterday's questions are asked again, together with today's ones.



AND THANK TO Ti. Paulinus, who, so far, seems to be the only citizen knowledgeable of our Republic, and the only dedicated to celebrate our 12 years.



------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

QUESTIONS - DAY 2 - YEAR 2



Q3. What was the most memorable event in 2752 AUC?

Q4. Name 3 citizens who received Nova Roman citizenship in year two, and are still within the republic as citizens.



------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

QUESTIONS - DAY 1 - YEAR 2



Q1. What was the address of the original mailing list of Nova Roma, settled in the First Year?

Q2. What was the exact date of the declaring of our (limited) sovereignty? >>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>> Wanna start a NR history class? :)

Would the prescribed text be considered a comedy or tragedy?

Cato Dextero sal.

Under our law, magistrates are required to take an oath before assuming office. no-one's brother or sister or friend or pet can take it for them. Since that is the case, and a Flamen Dialis cannot take an oath, a Flamen Dialis cannot hold a magistracy in Nova Roma.

Vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@...> wrote:
>
> Dexter Catoni s.p.d.,
>
> > Perhaps. But *our* law does not allow it, so a Flamen Dialis, if we ever have one, could not become a magistrate.
>
> What law does not allow it?
>
> > And what about the words "because he was not allowed to take an oath"
>
> I already explained you.
>
> Vale.
>
> C. Petronius Dexter
> Arcoiali scribebat
> A. d. VI Nonas Martias P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
>

Cato Tulliae Scholasticae Valeriae Messallinaesque SPD

I know you may think I'm more of an idiot after I say this than you do now - if that is possible - but if we, as a Respublica, are *serious* about having the vestals actually performing the duties that are required of them, then why do we *not* subsidize them? We have taken the first step - which I wholeheartedly supported - of making them exempt from taxes.

As for the restrictions placed on the vestals' abilities to do certain things they may *want* to do (ride a horse, watch TV, etc.)... well, that's the price of being a vestal; I imagine that the vestals in ancient Rome chafed somewhat under the restrictions under which they operated but then again, they were treated with an enormous amount of respect and had rights and privileges that no other women in ancient Rome had.

Perhaps if this were a serious consideration then certain small adjustments might be made once auspices had been taken and the College of Pontiffs examined the idea... so maybe the vestals *could* watch TV.

Valete,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Maxima Valeria Messallina <maximavaleriamessallina@...> wrote:
>
> <<--- On Mon, 3/1/10, A. Tullia Scholastica <fororom@...> wrote:
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica quiritibus bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
>
> Recently someone who used to pride himself on his logic seems to have
> suffered a breakdown thereof, for suddenly in his opinion, our Vestalis
> Maxima is unfit to serve in any other capacity due to her sacerdotal duties
> inasmuch as that was the case in antiquity. Based on this, she should not
> be allowed to work in the macronational world, or to tend to ailing family
> members, or to do much else. Trouble is, NR does not provide room and board
> to its (for want of a better term) clergy, and they still have the
> inconvenient need to eat, sleep, and pay assorted bills. Some must also
> tend to dependents and other family members. That more or less means that
> even the Vestales are not housed at state expense, and since they are not,
> must work. If one chooses to benefit the Res Publica by standing for
> office, we should be glad that a deserving person has chosen to do that, but
> no; some feel a compulsion to question the propriety thereof. Well, some of
> us can gather what is really going on here, just as some realize what the
> grounds for all of the recent complaints on assorted matters actually are.
> It does not require a degree in forensic science to figure this one out.
> Omnia clariora luce sunt.>>
>  
>  
> Oh so true! Under that type of thinking, I wouldn't be able to use a washing machine or a dish washer or cook as the ancient Vestals had a retinue of servants to do everything for them - so where are my servants? LOL
> I wouldn't be able to ride a horse (GRRR), drive a car, file income tax, go shopping, watch TV (hey!), or even use my laptop! I'd have to communicate with you by carrier pigeon I guess. LOL
> I couldn't even have coffee or chocolate and warning: no coffee, no chocolate = one SUPER cranky Vestal - and I don't think you want that! LOL
>  
> Vale bene,
>  
> Maxima Valeria Messallina
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Salve

You say that for the Romans politics and religion mixed, but that statement is so vague as to be meaningless. Of course it mixed, but that doesn't mean there were no limitations placed on politicians in the religious sphere and vice versa. Trying to spin the fact that religion and politics were intertwined in Rome into some sort of exhortation to disregard any valid concerns regarding conflicts of interest is patently absurd.

And those who are arguing against it are indeed pagans. Some of them are actual reconstructionists. The neopagans around here are the ones like you and your friends in the pontifical college who suffer from a perpetual crisis of self identification.

Vale,

Cicero

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete;
> if you read Wildfangs' book on the Vestals and Bauman's on Women's political Activity in Rome, you find entire chapters devoted to the Vestals and their political actions. It's not even an issue.
>
> The cultural maxim is that for Romans politics and religion mixed. Nova Roma has the duty to follow Roman culture.
>
> Otherwise we're just a bunch of neo-pagans. And since those who argue against this aren't even pagan, I find the entire discussion a waste of time.
> vale
> Maior
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gualterus_graecus" <waltms1@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Salve,
> >
> > Well, I can't help but point out the obvious observation that simply because something was done in antiquity it doesn't mean that it was the norm or expected behavior in antiquity. Were they really wise in doing this? Religious reconstruction isn't simply collating all of the possible behaviors concerning a particular religious tradition (although, that is part of the process), but also evaluating it in terms of consistency and evolution, not to mention a critical appraisal of the sources themselves. Are you ready to trust Livy on Middle Republican history knowing that much of his history is a fanciful forgery based on Valerius Antias?
> >
> > Even if one were to take this account seriously, it simply outlines the contours of the possible, not the contours of the probable or preferable. The latter is something that needs to be hashed out in the particular community. In our case, it means it is something that needs to be argued about in our forum.
> >
> > When it comes to reconstruction, no classical source is a trump card that "proves" the validity of some behavior, but rather such sources are the point of departure for discussion about historicity, reality and the application of tradition to modern conditions.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Gualterus
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Maxima Valeria Messallina <maximavaleriamessallina@> wrote:
> > >
> > > But in the end, they found a way to do it and still respect the sacred nature of the office. That's the point. As Dexter says, see how wise were the ancient Romans. Let that be an example to us, Nova Romans. We, too, can find ways to do what needs to be done and still respect the sacred nature of every religious office.
> > >
> > > Maxima Valeria Messallina
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > <<--- On Tue, 3/2/10, Cato <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > > Cato Dextero sal.
> > >
> > > Perhaps. But *our* law does not allow it, so a Flamen Dialis, if we ever have one, could not become a magistrate.
> > >
> > > And what about the words "because he was not allowed to take an oath" - this certainly says something about the sacred nature of the office in contrast to the saecular powers of a magistrate.
> > >
> > > Vale,
> > >
> > > Cato>>
> > >
> > >
> > > >--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@ ...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Dexter Catoni sal.,
> > > >
> > > > What demonstrates the Gaius Valerius Flaccus' case?
> > > >
> > > > The case was a only politic affair. A flamen Dialis with the taboo of no taking oath. Because the oaths oblige the man who take oath. As "living Jupiter" the flamen Dialis cannot be obliged by anything.
> > > >
> > > > So he may not take oath.
> > > >
> > > > But, he was allowed to be candidate and he was elected as aedilis curulis. Now he was in front of his taboo of no taking oath.
> > > >
> > > > What did the senate? Not a "fatwa" nor a lawsuit of blasphemy against the flamen Dialis elected aedilis curulis. The senate allowed him, if the consuls agreed, to be replace in taking the oath. The consuls agreed, if the tribunes of the plebs agree to convene the Comicia Tributa in order to have the agreement of the people. (
> > > >
> > > > The oath taken by the brother was judged taken by the flamen Dialis himself and the people agreed.
> > > >
> > > > In all this case, nobody spoke about a sacrosanctity, or a blasphemy.
> > > >
> > > > So wise were ancient Romans. Let that be an example to you.
> > > >
> > > > vale.
> > > >
> > > > C. Petronius Dexter
> > > > Arcoiali scribebat
> > > > A. d. VI Nonas Martias P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>

Good question Aeternia. For some among is, it would seem that what is considered acceptable is simply what they wish to do at any given point in time.

When they want to do something that happens to resemble something the ancients did, then they use the argument that it must be done, because the ancients did so. When the ancient example happens to not support what they wish to do, then they use the argument that we live in the modern world and should adapt.

Just some examples: When they want to have female flamens or praetors or consuls, then suddenly we have to keep with the times and disregard the ancient example. When they want a vetal to serve as a tribune and a legate, then one instance in history is used as not only an excuse but a veritable exhortation to copy exactly what the ancients did. It is intellectually dishonest and reveals just how shallow their dedication to the cultus deorum and Roma Antiqua et Nova truly is.

Cicero

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Jennifer Harris <cyannerose@...> wrote:
>
> Salve,
>
> On that note, I think a good question would be what is considered to be
> acceptable in modern times. What should we as Nova Romans keep and what
> should perhaps be not considered "unwise" to follow in these modern times.
> I don't know about anyone else but bailing people out of jail for on a
> constant basis is not my cup of tea.
>
> Vale,
> Aeternia
>
> On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 12:54 PM, lucius_cornelius_cicero
> <Cicero@...>wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Too true. We can find a whole slew of things the Ancients did that wouldn't
> > be a good idea to repeat and that, were they here today, they probably
> > wouldn't advocate either. Just because a Tribune was killed in the senate by
> > a mob, should that be considered an excuse for us to do so today? After all,
> > the wise old Romans did it! Look how clever they were! Why, let's find the
> > nearest tribune and kill them!
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > "gualterus_graecus" <waltms1@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Salve,
> > >
> > > Well, I can't help but point out the obvious observation that simply
> > because something was done in antiquity it doesn't mean that it was the norm
> > or expected behavior in antiquity. Were they really wise in doing this?
> > Religious reconstruction isn't simply collating all of the possible
> > behaviors concerning a particular religious tradition (although, that is
> > part of the process), but also evaluating it in terms of consistency and
> > evolution, not to mention a critical appraisal of the sources themselves.
> > Are you ready to trust Livy on Middle Republican history knowing that much
> > of his history is a fanciful forgery based on Valerius Antias?
> > >
> > > Even if one were to take this account seriously, it simply outlines the
> > contours of the possible, not the contours of the probable or preferable.
> > The latter is something that needs to be hashed out in the particular
> > community. In our case, it means it is something that needs to be argued
> > about in our forum.
> > >
> > > When it comes to reconstruction, no classical source is a trump card that
> > "proves" the validity of some behavior, but rather such sources are the
> > point of departure for discussion about historicity, reality and the
> > application of tradition to modern conditions.
> > >
> > > Vale,
> > >
> > > Gualterus
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>, Maxima
> > Valeria Messallina <maximavaleriamessallina@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > But in the end, they found a way to do it and still respect the sacred
> > nature of the office. That's the point. As Dexter says, see how wise were
> > the ancient Romans. Let that be an example to us, Nova Romans. We, too, can
> > find ways to do what needs to be done and still respect the sacred nature of
> > every religious office.
> > > >
> > > > Maxima Valeria Messallina
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > <<--- On Tue, 3/2/10, Cato <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > > > Cato Dextero sal.
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps. But *our* law does not allow it, so a Flamen Dialis, if we
> > ever have one, could not become a magistrate.
> > > >
> > > > And what about the words "because he was not allowed to take an oath" -
> > this certainly says something about the sacred nature of the office in
> > contrast to the saecular powers of a magistrate.
> > > >
> > > > Vale,
> > > >
> > > > Cato>>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Dexter Catoni sal.,
> > > > >
> > > > > What demonstrates the Gaius Valerius Flaccus' case?
> > > > >
> > > > > The case was a only politic affair. A flamen Dialis with the taboo of
> > no taking oath. Because the oaths oblige the man who take oath. As "living
> > Jupiter" the flamen Dialis cannot be obliged by anything.
> > > > >
> > > > > So he may not take oath.
> > > > >
> > > > > But, he was allowed to be candidate and he was elected as aedilis
> > curulis. Now he was in front of his taboo of no taking oath.
> > > > >
> > > > > What did the senate? Not a "fatwa" nor a lawsuit of blasphemy against
> > the flamen Dialis elected aedilis curulis. The senate allowed him, if the
> > consuls agreed, to be replace in taking the oath. The consuls agreed, if the
> > tribunes of the plebs agree to convene the Comicia Tributa in order to have
> > the agreement of the people. (
> > > > >
> > > > > The oath taken by the brother was judged taken by the flamen Dialis
> > himself and the people agreed.
> > > > >
> > > > > In all this case, nobody spoke about a sacrosanctity, or a blasphemy.
> >
> > > > >
> > > > > So wise were ancient Romans. Let that be an example to you.
> > > > >
> > > > > vale.
> > > > >
> > > > > C. Petronius Dexter
> > > > > Arcoiali scribebat
> > > > > A. d. VI Nonas Martias P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Aeterniae Ciceroni sal,

That is why there should be a balance, else these instances will keep coming
up along with the same song and dance of talon vs. paw.


Vale,
Aeternia

On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 2:19 PM, lucius_cornelius_cicero <Cicero@...>wrote:

>
>
> Good question Aeternia. For some among is, it would seem that what is
> considered acceptable is simply what they wish to do at any given point in
> time.
>
> When they want to do something that happens to resemble something the
> ancients did, then they use the argument that it must be done, because the
> ancients did so. When the ancient example happens to not support what they
> wish to do, then they use the argument that we live in the modern world and
> should adapt.
>
> Just some examples: When they want to have female flamens or praetors or
> consuls, then suddenly we have to keep with the times and disregard the
> ancient example. When they want a vetal to serve as a tribune and a legate,
> then one instance in history is used as not only an excuse but a veritable
> exhortation to copy exactly what the ancients did. It is intellectually
> dishonest and reveals just how shallow their dedication to the cultus deorum
> and Roma Antiqua et Nova truly is.
>
> Cicero
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>, Jennifer
> Harris <cyannerose@...> wrote:
> >
> > Salve,
> >
> > On that note, I think a good question would be what is considered to be
> > acceptable in modern times. What should we as Nova Romans keep and what
> > should perhaps be not considered "unwise" to follow in these modern
> times.
> > I don't know about anyone else but bailing people out of jail for on a
> > constant basis is not my cup of tea.
> >
> > Vale,
> > Aeternia
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 12:54 PM, lucius_cornelius_cicero
> > <Cicero@...>wrote:
>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Too true. We can find a whole slew of things the Ancients did that
> wouldn't
> > > be a good idea to repeat and that, were they here today, they probably
> > > wouldn't advocate either. Just because a Tribune was killed in the
> senate by
> > > a mob, should that be considered an excuse for us to do so today? After
> all,
> > > the wise old Romans did it! Look how clever they were! Why, let's find
> the
> > > nearest tribune and kill them!
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com><Nova-Roma%
> 40yahoogroups.com>,
>
> > > "gualterus_graecus" <waltms1@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Salve,
> > > >
> > > > Well, I can't help but point out the obvious observation that simply
> > > because something was done in antiquity it doesn't mean that it was the
> norm
> > > or expected behavior in antiquity. Were they really wise in doing this?
> > > Religious reconstruction isn't simply collating all of the possible
> > > behaviors concerning a particular religious tradition (although, that
> is
> > > part of the process), but also evaluating it in terms of consistency
> and
> > > evolution, not to mention a critical appraisal of the sources
> themselves.
> > > Are you ready to trust Livy on Middle Republican history knowing that
> much
> > > of his history is a fanciful forgery based on Valerius Antias?
> > > >
> > > > Even if one were to take this account seriously, it simply outlines
> the
> > > contours of the possible, not the contours of the probable or
> preferable.
> > > The latter is something that needs to be hashed out in the particular
> > > community. In our case, it means it is something that needs to be
> argued
> > > about in our forum.
> > > >
> > > > When it comes to reconstruction, no classical source is a trump card
> that
> > > "proves" the validity of some behavior, but rather such sources are the
> > > point of departure for discussion about historicity, reality and the
> > > application of tradition to modern conditions.
> > > >
> > > > Vale,
> > > >
> > > > Gualterus
> > > >
> > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com><Nova-Roma%
> 40yahoogroups.com>, Maxima
>
> > > Valeria Messallina <maximavaleriamessallina@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > But in the end, they found a way to do it and still respect the
> sacred
> > > nature of the office. That's the point. As Dexter says, see how wise
> were
> > > the ancient Romans. Let that be an example to us, Nova Romans. We, too,
> can
> > > find ways to do what needs to be done and still respect the sacred
> nature of
> > > every religious office.
> > > > >
> > > > > Maxima Valeria Messallina
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > <<--- On Tue, 3/2/10, Cato <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > > > > Cato Dextero sal.
> > > > >
> > > > > Perhaps. But *our* law does not allow it, so a Flamen Dialis, if we
> > > ever have one, could not become a magistrate.
> > > > >
> > > > > And what about the words "because he was not allowed to take an
> oath" -
> > > this certainly says something about the sacred nature of the office in
> > > contrast to the saecular powers of a magistrate.
> > > > >
> > > > > Vale,
> > > > >
> > > > > Cato>>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, "petronius_dexter"
> <jfarnoud94@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dexter Catoni sal.,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What demonstrates the Gaius Valerius Flaccus' case?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The case was a only politic affair. A flamen Dialis with the
> taboo of
> > > no taking oath. Because the oaths oblige the man who take oath. As
> "living
> > > Jupiter" the flamen Dialis cannot be obliged by anything.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So he may not take oath.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But, he was allowed to be candidate and he was elected as aedilis
> > > curulis. Now he was in front of his taboo of no taking oath.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What did the senate? Not a "fatwa" nor a lawsuit of blasphemy
> against
> > > the flamen Dialis elected aedilis curulis. The senate allowed him, if
> the
> > > consuls agreed, to be replace in taking the oath. The consuls agreed,
> if the
> > > tribunes of the plebs agree to convene the Comicia Tributa in order to
> have
> > > the agreement of the people. (
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The oath taken by the brother was judged taken by the flamen
> Dialis
> > > himself and the people agreed.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In all this case, nobody spoke about a sacrosanctity, or a
> blasphemy.
> > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So wise were ancient Romans. Let that be an example to you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > vale.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > C. Petronius Dexter
> > > > > > Arcoiali scribebat
> > > > > > A. d. VI Nonas Martias P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Maior Scholasticae spd;
ignore him. He hasn't even quoted any scholarly sources of the vast amount of material on the Vestals activities : which involved politics, having a special box at gladitorial events, going to dinner parties, participating in the Fordicalia, October Horse, lictors etc.

As I posted, Wildfang and Baumann devote entire chapters to the Vestals and their politcs. And yes, they worked very hard to change restrictions and enlarge their power;-) That's Roman!


It's all about the BA crowd not wanting Messallina to be an active governor of Provincia California as opposed to Q. Fabius Maximus who seems to have done nothing.
vale
Maior

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> Cato Tulliae Scholasticae Valeriae Messallinaesque SPD
>
> I know you may think I'm more of an idiot after I say this than you do now - if that is possible - but if we, as a Respublica, are *serious* about having the vestals actually performing the duties that are required of them, then why do we *not* subsidize them? We have taken the first step - which I wholeheartedly supported - of making them exempt from taxes.
>
> As for the restrictions placed on the vestals' abilities to do certain things they may *want* to do (ride a horse, watch TV, etc.)... well, that's the price of being a vestal; I imagine that the vestals in ancient Rome chafed somewhat under the restrictions under which they operated but then again, they were treated with an enormous amount of respect and had rights and privileges that no other women in ancient Rome had.
>
> Perhaps if this were a serious consideration then certain small adjustments might be made once auspices had been taken and the College of Pontiffs examined the idea... so maybe the vestals *could* watch TV.
>
> Valete,
>
> Cato
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Maxima Valeria Messallina <maximavaleriamessallina@> wrote:
> >
> > <<--- On Mon, 3/1/10, A. Tullia Scholastica <fororom@> wrote:
> >
> > A. Tullia Scholastica quiritibus bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
> >
> > Recently someone who used to pride himself on his logic seems to have
> > suffered a breakdown thereof, for suddenly in his opinion, our Vestalis
> > Maxima is unfit to serve in any other capacity due to her sacerdotal duties
> > inasmuch as that was the case in antiquity. Based on this, she should not
> > be allowed to work in the macronational world, or to tend to ailing family
> > members, or to do much else. Trouble is, NR does not provide room and board
> > to its (for want of a better term) clergy, and they still have the
> > inconvenient need to eat, sleep, and pay assorted bills. Some must also
> > tend to dependents and other family members. That more or less means that
> > even the Vestales are not housed at state expense, and since they are not,
> > must work. If one chooses to benefit the Res Publica by standing for
> > office, we should be glad that a deserving person has chosen to do that, but
> > no; some feel a compulsion to question the propriety thereof. Well, some of
> > us can gather what is really going on here, just as some realize what the
> > grounds for all of the recent complaints on assorted matters actually are.
> > It does not require a degree in forensic science to figure this one out.
> > Omnia clariora luce sunt.>>
> >  
> >  
> > Oh so true! Under that type of thinking, I wouldn't be able to use a washing machine or a dish washer or cook as the ancient Vestals had a retinue of servants to do everything for them - so where are my servants? LOL
> > I wouldn't be able to ride a horse (GRRR), drive a car, file income tax, go shopping, watch TV (hey!), or even use my laptop! I'd have to communicate with you by carrier pigeon I guess. LOL
> > I couldn't even have coffee or chocolate and warning: no coffee, no chocolate = one SUPER cranky Vestal - and I don't think you want that! LOL
> >  
> > Vale bene,
> >  
> > Maxima Valeria Messallina
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

Are you mocking the wisdom of the ancients?
 
 
<<--- On Tue, 3/2/10, lucius_cornelius_cicero <Cicero@...> wrote:

Too true. We can find a whole slew of things the Ancients did that wouldn't be a good idea to repeat and that, were they here today, they probably wouldn't advocate either. Just because a Tribune was killed in the senate by a mob, should that be considered an excuse for us to do so today? After all, the wise old Romans did it! Look how clever they were! Why, let's find the nearest tribune and kill them!>>
 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

So, not history class, unh? Ah, man...
Ok, I'll try, but I'll forgive you if you laugh at my answers. LOL
 
MVM 

<<--- On Tue, 3/2/10, Cn. Cornelius Lentulus <cn_corn_lent@...> wrote:

Salve, Valeria et salvete!

Of course, I was just teasing the people, I did not mean it seriously that Paulinus is the only dedicated citizen :)

But come on, try this Certamen Historicum: you can use the sources online, and there our website, too!

Valete!
Vivat Nova Roma annorum XII!

CN LENTVLVS>>

>>>--- Mar 2/3/10, Maxima Valeria Messallina <maximavaleriamessal lina@yahoo. com> ha scritto:

Congratulations to Paulinus!

I certainly am not as familiar with Nova Roma history as I would like to be. However, my dear Lentulus, I would like to think that I, too, am dedicated to celebrating Nova Roma's anniversary and lots more Citizens as well.

Wanna start a NR history class? :)

Vale bene,

Maxima Valeria Messallina<<<




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Stop the blather and quote modern scholars and historic sources. As this entire discussion is nonsense.

It's political, to keep Messallina from being Governor of California.

What disgusts me is how some, non-cultores are trying to prevert the Religio Romana into somekind of christian clone for political ends.

What's sad is that this discussion raged yesterday in the Senate and on the Main List, when we all should have been celebrating the Matronalia, as the day was NP, Nefastus Publicus.

I didn't particpate because I care about a real life religio, not online game playing.
vale
Maior

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "lucius_cornelius_cicero" <Cicero@...> wrote:
>
> Salve
>
> You say that for the Romans politics and religion mixed, but that statement is so vague as to be meaningless. Of course it mixed, but that doesn't mean there were no limitations placed on politicians in the religious sphere and vice versa. Trying to spin the fact that religion and politics were intertwined in Rome into some sort of exhortation to disregard any valid concerns regarding conflicts of interest is patently absurd.
>
> And those who are arguing against it are indeed pagans. Some of them are actual reconstructionists. The neopagans around here are the ones like you and your friends in the pontifical college who suffer from a perpetual crisis of self identification.
>
> Vale,
>
> Cicero
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> >
> > Salvete;
> > if you read Wildfangs' book on the Vestals and Bauman's on Women's political Activity in Rome, you find entire chapters devoted to the Vestals and their political actions. It's not even an issue.
> >
> > The cultural maxim is that for Romans politics and religion mixed. Nova Roma has the duty to follow Roman culture.
> >
> > Otherwise we're just a bunch of neo-pagans. And since those who argue against this aren't even pagan, I find the entire discussion a waste of time.
> > vale
> > Maior
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gualterus_graecus" <waltms1@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Salve,
> > >
> > > Well, I can't help but point out the obvious observation that simply because something was done in antiquity it doesn't mean that it was the norm or expected behavior in antiquity. Were they really wise in doing this? Religious reconstruction isn't simply collating all of the possible behaviors concerning a particular religious tradition (although, that is part of the process), but also evaluating it in terms of consistency and evolution, not to mention a critical appraisal of the sources themselves. Are you ready to trust Livy on Middle Republican history knowing that much of his history is a fanciful forgery based on Valerius Antias?
> > >
> > > Even if one were to take this account seriously, it simply outlines the contours of the possible, not the contours of the probable or preferable. The latter is something that needs to be hashed out in the particular community. In our case, it means it is something that needs to be argued about in our forum.
> > >
> > > When it comes to reconstruction, no classical source is a trump card that "proves" the validity of some behavior, but rather such sources are the point of departure for discussion about historicity, reality and the application of tradition to modern conditions.
> > >
> > > Vale,
> > >
> > > Gualterus
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Maxima Valeria Messallina <maximavaleriamessallina@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > But in the end, they found a way to do it and still respect the sacred nature of the office. That's the point. As Dexter says, see how wise were the ancient Romans. Let that be an example to us, Nova Romans. We, too, can find ways to do what needs to be done and still respect the sacred nature of every religious office.
> > > >
> > > > Maxima Valeria Messallina
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > <<--- On Tue, 3/2/10, Cato <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > > > Cato Dextero sal.
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps. But *our* law does not allow it, so a Flamen Dialis, if we ever have one, could not become a magistrate.
> > > >
> > > > And what about the words "because he was not allowed to take an oath" - this certainly says something about the sacred nature of the office in contrast to the saecular powers of a magistrate.
> > > >
> > > > Vale,
> > > >
> > > > Cato>>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@ ...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Dexter Catoni sal.,
> > > > >
> > > > > What demonstrates the Gaius Valerius Flaccus' case?
> > > > >
> > > > > The case was a only politic affair. A flamen Dialis with the taboo of no taking oath. Because the oaths oblige the man who take oath. As "living Jupiter" the flamen Dialis cannot be obliged by anything.
> > > > >
> > > > > So he may not take oath.
> > > > >
> > > > > But, he was allowed to be candidate and he was elected as aedilis curulis. Now he was in front of his taboo of no taking oath.
> > > > >
> > > > > What did the senate? Not a "fatwa" nor a lawsuit of blasphemy against the flamen Dialis elected aedilis curulis. The senate allowed him, if the consuls agreed, to be replace in taking the oath. The consuls agreed, if the tribunes of the plebs agree to convene the Comicia Tributa in order to have the agreement of the people. (
> > > > >
> > > > > The oath taken by the brother was judged taken by the flamen Dialis himself and the people agreed.
> > > > >
> > > > > In all this case, nobody spoke about a sacrosanctity, or a blasphemy.
> > > > >
> > > > > So wise were ancient Romans. Let that be an example to you.
> > > > >
> > > > > vale.
> > > > >
> > > > > C. Petronius Dexter
> > > > > Arcoiali scribebat
> > > > > A. d. VI Nonas Martias P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

M. Hortensia Matronibus spd;
I'm very happy to post that I will be celebrating on the Kalends of May, the feria of Bona Dea with a local group. I'd like to encourage the women of Nova Roma to get together with other women locally and celebrate and remember Bona Dea!
It's not hard, wine, music, dancing, Italian food.Bona Dea was a very ancient Italic goddess, her temple on the Aventine was rebuilt by Livia. Let's be the same and revive her cultus! And may she be proptious to Nova Roma!
optime vale
Maior
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Bona_Dea

Aeterniae Maiori sal,

Whats even sadder that you fail to see that there should be a form of
balance to all this, so that this "blather" will stop and fruitful
discussions can actually emerge.

Vale,
Aeternia

On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 3:11 PM, rory12001 <rory12001@...> wrote:

>
>
> Stop the blather and quote modern scholars and historic sources. As this
> entire discussion is nonsense.
>
> It's political, to keep Messallina from being Governor of California.
>
> What disgusts me is how some, non-cultores are trying to prevert the
> Religio Romana into somekind of christian clone for political ends.
>
> What's sad is that this discussion raged yesterday in the Senate and on the
> Main List, when we all should have been celebrating the Matronalia, as the
> day was NP, Nefastus Publicus.
>
> I didn't particpate because I care about a real life religio, not online
> game playing.
> vale
> Maior
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "lucius_cornelius_cicero" <Cicero@...> wrote:
> >
> > Salve
> >
> > You say that for the Romans politics and religion mixed, but that
> statement is so vague as to be meaningless. Of course it mixed, but that
> doesn't mean there were no limitations placed on politicians in the
> religious sphere and vice versa. Trying to spin the fact that religion and
> politics were intertwined in Rome into some sort of exhortation to disregard
> any valid concerns regarding conflicts of interest is patently absurd.
> >
> > And those who are arguing against it are indeed pagans. Some of them are
> actual reconstructionists. The neopagans around here are the ones like you
> and your friends in the pontifical college who suffer from a perpetual
> crisis of self identification.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Cicero
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Salvete;
> > > if you read Wildfangs' book on the Vestals and Bauman's on Women's
> political Activity in Rome, you find entire chapters devoted to the Vestals
> and their political actions. It's not even an issue.
> > >
> > > The cultural maxim is that for Romans politics and religion mixed. Nova
> Roma has the duty to follow Roman culture.
> > >
> > > Otherwise we're just a bunch of neo-pagans. And since those who argue
> against this aren't even pagan, I find the entire discussion a waste of
> time.
> > > vale
> > > Maior
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "gualterus_graecus" <waltms1@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Salve,
> > > >
> > > > Well, I can't help but point out the obvious observation that simply
> because something was done in antiquity it doesn't mean that it was the norm
> or expected behavior in antiquity. Were they really wise in doing this?
> Religious reconstruction isn't simply collating all of the possible
> behaviors concerning a particular religious tradition (although, that is
> part of the process), but also evaluating it in terms of consistency and
> evolution, not to mention a critical appraisal of the sources themselves.
> Are you ready to trust Livy on Middle Republican history knowing that much
> of his history is a fanciful forgery based on Valerius Antias?
> > > >
> > > > Even if one were to take this account seriously, it simply outlines
> the contours of the possible, not the contours of the probable or
> preferable. The latter is something that needs to be hashed out in the
> particular community. In our case, it means it is something that needs to be
> argued about in our forum.
> > > >
> > > > When it comes to reconstruction, no classical source is a trump card
> that "proves" the validity of some behavior, but rather such sources are the
> point of departure for discussion about historicity, reality and the
> application of tradition to modern conditions.
> > > >
> > > > Vale,
> > > >
> > > > Gualterus
> > > >
> > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Maxima Valeria Messallina <maximavaleriamessallina@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > But in the end, they found a way to do it and still respect the
> sacred nature of the office. That's the point. As Dexter says, see how wise
> were the ancient Romans. Let that be an example to us, Nova Romans. We, too,
> can find ways to do what needs to be done and still respect the sacred
> nature of every religious office.
> > > > >
> > > > > Maxima Valeria Messallina
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > <<--- On Tue, 3/2/10, Cato <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > > > > Cato Dextero sal.
> > > > >
> > > > > Perhaps. But *our* law does not allow it, so a Flamen Dialis, if we
> ever have one, could not become a magistrate.
> > > > >
> > > > > And what about the words "because he was not allowed to take an
> oath" - this certainly says something about the sacred nature of the office
> in contrast to the saecular powers of a magistrate.
> > > > >
> > > > > Vale,
> > > > >
> > > > > Cato>>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, "petronius_dexter"
> <jfarnoud94@ ...> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dexter Catoni sal.,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What demonstrates the Gaius Valerius Flaccus' case?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The case was a only politic affair. A flamen Dialis with the
> taboo of no taking oath. Because the oaths oblige the man who take oath. As
> "living Jupiter" the flamen Dialis cannot be obliged by anything.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So he may not take oath.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But, he was allowed to be candidate and he was elected as aedilis
> curulis. Now he was in front of his taboo of no taking oath.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What did the senate? Not a "fatwa" nor a lawsuit of blasphemy
> against the flamen Dialis elected aedilis curulis. The senate allowed him,
> if the consuls agreed, to be replace in taking the oath. The consuls agreed,
> if the tribunes of the plebs agree to convene the Comicia Tributa in order
> to have the agreement of the people. (
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The oath taken by the brother was judged taken by the flamen
> Dialis himself and the people agreed.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In all this case, nobody spoke about a sacrosanctity, or a
> blasphemy.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So wise were ancient Romans. Let that be an example to you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > vale.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > C. Petronius Dexter
> > > > > > Arcoiali scribebat
> > > > > > A. d. VI Nonas Martias P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Which part of it? I do question the wisdom if a mob murdering a tribune, yes. Many of the ancients probably did as well.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Maxima Valeria Messallina <maximavaleriamessallina@...> wrote:
>
> Are you mocking the wisdom of the ancients?
>  
>  
> <<--- On Tue, 3/2/10, lucius_cornelius_cicero <Cicero@...> wrote:
>
> Too true. We can find a whole slew of things the Ancients did that wouldn't be a good idea to repeat and that, were they here today, they probably wouldn't advocate either. Just because a Tribune was killed in the senate by a mob, should that be considered an excuse for us to do so today? After all, the wise old Romans did it! Look how clever they were! Why, let's find the nearest tribune and kill them!>>
>  
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Fruitful discussion involves scholarship, research and a discussion of culture.

It involves real love of the religio, respecting the feria, doing real life activities.

The Virgo Maxima is wonderful at all these things. I find this occasion, to try and stop her from being governor of California
when the present one is inactive, typical & pathetic.

vale
Maior

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Jennifer Harris <cyannerose@...> wrote:
>
> Aeterniae Maiori sal,
>
> Whats even sadder that you fail to see that there should be a form of
> balance to all this, so that this "blather" will stop and fruitful
> discussions can actually emerge.
>
> Vale,
> Aeternia
>
> On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 3:11 PM, rory12001 <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Stop the blather and quote modern scholars and historic sources. As this
> > entire discussion is nonsense.
> >
> > It's political, to keep Messallina from being Governor of California.
> >
> > What disgusts me is how some, non-cultores are trying to prevert the
> > Religio Romana into somekind of christian clone for political ends.
> >
> > What's sad is that this discussion raged yesterday in the Senate and on the
> > Main List, when we all should have been celebrating the Matronalia, as the
> > day was NP, Nefastus Publicus.
> >
> > I didn't particpate because I care about a real life religio, not online
> > game playing.
> > vale
> > Maior
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > "lucius_cornelius_cicero" <Cicero@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Salve
> > >
> > > You say that for the Romans politics and religion mixed, but that
> > statement is so vague as to be meaningless. Of course it mixed, but that
> > doesn't mean there were no limitations placed on politicians in the
> > religious sphere and vice versa. Trying to spin the fact that religion and
> > politics were intertwined in Rome into some sort of exhortation to disregard
> > any valid concerns regarding conflicts of interest is patently absurd.
> > >
> > > And those who are arguing against it are indeed pagans. Some of them are
> > actual reconstructionists. The neopagans around here are the ones like you
> > and your friends in the pontifical college who suffer from a perpetual
> > crisis of self identification.
> > >
> > > Vale,
> > >
> > > Cicero
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Salvete;
> > > > if you read Wildfangs' book on the Vestals and Bauman's on Women's
> > political Activity in Rome, you find entire chapters devoted to the Vestals
> > and their political actions. It's not even an issue.
> > > >
> > > > The cultural maxim is that for Romans politics and religion mixed. Nova
> > Roma has the duty to follow Roman culture.
> > > >
> > > > Otherwise we're just a bunch of neo-pagans. And since those who argue
> > against this aren't even pagan, I find the entire discussion a waste of
> > time.
> > > > vale
> > > > Maior
> > > >
> > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > "gualterus_graecus" <waltms1@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Salve,
> > > > >
> > > > > Well, I can't help but point out the obvious observation that simply
> > because something was done in antiquity it doesn't mean that it was the norm
> > or expected behavior in antiquity. Were they really wise in doing this?
> > Religious reconstruction isn't simply collating all of the possible
> > behaviors concerning a particular religious tradition (although, that is
> > part of the process), but also evaluating it in terms of consistency and
> > evolution, not to mention a critical appraisal of the sources themselves.
> > Are you ready to trust Livy on Middle Republican history knowing that much
> > of his history is a fanciful forgery based on Valerius Antias?
> > > > >
> > > > > Even if one were to take this account seriously, it simply outlines
> > the contours of the possible, not the contours of the probable or
> > preferable. The latter is something that needs to be hashed out in the
> > particular community. In our case, it means it is something that needs to be
> > argued about in our forum.
> > > > >
> > > > > When it comes to reconstruction, no classical source is a trump card
> > that "proves" the validity of some behavior, but rather such sources are the
> > point of departure for discussion about historicity, reality and the
> > application of tradition to modern conditions.
> > > > >
> > > > > Vale,
> > > > >
> > > > > Gualterus
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > Maxima Valeria Messallina <maximavaleriamessallina@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But in the end, they found a way to do it and still respect the
> > sacred nature of the office. That's the point. As Dexter says, see how wise
> > were the ancient Romans. Let that be an example to us, Nova Romans. We, too,
> > can find ways to do what needs to be done and still respect the sacred
> > nature of every religious office.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Maxima Valeria Messallina
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > <<--- On Tue, 3/2/10, Cato <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > > > > > Cato Dextero sal.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Perhaps. But *our* law does not allow it, so a Flamen Dialis, if we
> > ever have one, could not become a magistrate.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And what about the words "because he was not allowed to take an
> > oath" - this certainly says something about the sacred nature of the office
> > in contrast to the saecular powers of a magistrate.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Vale,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cato>>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogrou ps.com, "petronius_dexter"
> > <jfarnoud94@ ...> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Dexter Catoni sal.,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What demonstrates the Gaius Valerius Flaccus' case?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The case was a only politic affair. A flamen Dialis with the
> > taboo of no taking oath. Because the oaths oblige the man who take oath. As
> > "living Jupiter" the flamen Dialis cannot be obliged by anything.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So he may not take oath.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > But, he was allowed to be candidate and he was elected as aedilis
> > curulis. Now he was in front of his taboo of no taking oath.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What did the senate? Not a "fatwa" nor a lawsuit of blasphemy
> > against the flamen Dialis elected aedilis curulis. The senate allowed him,
> > if the consuls agreed, to be replace in taking the oath. The consuls agreed,
> > if the tribunes of the plebs agree to convene the Comicia Tributa in order
> > to have the agreement of the people. (
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The oath taken by the brother was judged taken by the flamen
> > Dialis himself and the people agreed.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In all this case, nobody spoke about a sacrosanctity, or a
> > blasphemy.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So wise were ancient Romans. Let that be an example to you.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > vale.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > C. Petronius Dexter
> > > > > > > Arcoiali scribebat
> > > > > > > A. d. VI Nonas Martias P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>