Selected messages in Nova-Roma group. Mar 14-29, 2010

Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74502 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-03-14
Subject: Pridie Eidus Martias: Equirria, Mamuralia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74503 From: GAIUS MARCIUS CRISPUS Date: 2010-03-14
Subject: News from Britannia - Lighting up Hadrian's Wall
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74504 From: Cn. Cornelius Lentulus Date: 2010-03-14
Subject: SECOND EQUIRRIA - for the Nova Roman State
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74505 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2010-03-14
Subject: Re: NR Parody Writing Contest - THIRD BEST PARODY by M. Hortensia Ma
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74506 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2010-03-14
Subject: Re: NR Parody Writing Contest - SECOND BEST PARODY by C. Petronius D
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74507 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2010-03-14
Subject: Re: NR Parody Writing Contest - SECOND BEST PARODY by C. Petronius D
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74508 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-14
Subject: Re: NR Parody Writing Contest - SECOND BEST PARODY by C. Petronius D
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74509 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2010-03-14
Subject: Re: NR Parody Writing Contest - SECOND BEST PARODY by C. Petronius D
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74510 From: Marcus Audens Date: 2010-03-14
Subject: Wiki Webmaster
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74511 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2010-03-15
Subject: Re: NR Parody Writing Contest - SECOND BEST PARODY by C. Petronius D
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74512 From: A. Decia Scriptrix Date: 2010-03-15
Subject: Pilum XI and Roman Times Quarterly - Winter issues
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74513 From: Cn. Cornelius Lentulus Date: 2010-03-15
Subject: R: [Nova-Roma] Wiki Webmaster
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74514 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-03-15
Subject: EIDUS MARTIAE: Anna Perenna; Procession of the Palms
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74515 From: Ugo Coppola Date: 2010-03-15
Subject: LUDI NOVI ROMANI 2763 AUC: OFFICIAL ÆDILICIAN CLOSING STATEMENT
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74516 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-15
Subject: BEWARE!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74517 From: Jennifer Harris Date: 2010-03-15
Subject: Re: BEWARE!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74518 From: A. Decia Scriptrix Date: 2010-03-15
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74519 From: James Mathews Date: 2010-03-15
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] Wiki Webmaster
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74520 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2010-03-15
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74521 From: C.Maria Caeca Date: 2010-03-15
Subject: Certamen Latinum, final results
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74522 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-03-15
Subject: Re: online Amulet-making workshop March 14-30
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74523 From: mcorvvs Date: 2010-03-16
Subject: Re: Results of the February Senate Meeting (Corrected+comments)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74524 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2010-03-16
Subject: Re: Certamen Latinum, final results
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74525 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-03-16
Subject: a. d. XVII Kalendas Apriles: Saculla Argeiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74526 From: publiusalbucius Date: 2010-03-16
Subject: Re: LUDI NOVI ROMANI 2763 AUC: OFFICIAL ÆDILICIAN CLOSING STATEMENT
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74527 From: mcorvvs Date: 2010-03-16
Subject: Re: Ides ritual performed by Sacerdos Iovis M.Octavius Corvus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74528 From: James Mathews Date: 2010-03-16
Subject: Models
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74529 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2010-03-16
Subject: Re: NR Parody Writing Contest - SECOND BEST PARODY by C. Petronius D
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74530 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-03-16
Subject: Re: Models
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74531 From: publiusalbucius Date: 2010-03-16
Subject: Call for candidacy for AEDILIS CURULIS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74532 From: Lupus Date: 2010-03-17
Subject: Re: Certamen Latinum, final results
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74533 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2010-03-17
Subject: Re: Certamen Latinum, final results
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74534 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-03-17
Subject: Explorator 12.47
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74535 From: Cn. Cornelius Lentulus Date: 2010-03-17
Subject: Preliminary Invitation to the Floralia in Aquincum (Budapest, Hungar
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74536 From: Publius Memmius Albucius Date: 2010-03-17
Subject: Re: A joint invitation to Rome
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74537 From: Christer Edling Date: 2010-03-17
Subject: A joint invitation to Rome
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74538 From: C.Maria Caeca Date: 2010-03-17
Subject: Re: Certamen Latinum, final results
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74539 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2010-03-18
Subject: Re: Certamen Latinum, final results
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74540 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2010-03-18
Subject: Oath of Office of Quaestor
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74541 From: Marcus Audens Date: 2010-03-18
Subject: Re: [SenatusRomanus] RE: A joint invitation to Rome
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74542 From: Publius Memmius Albucius Date: 2010-03-18
Subject: The senate is called in session
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74543 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2010-03-18
Subject: Re: Ancient Rome Refocused , A Blog and Podcast
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74544 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-19
Subject: Re: Call for candidacy for AEDILIS CURULIS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74545 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-03-19
Subject: a. d. XIV Kalendas Apriles: QUINQUATRUS, Minervalia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74546 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-03-20
Subject: a. d. XIII Kalendas Apriles: Sexatrus and the Aequinoctium vernum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74547 From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com Date: 2010-03-20
Subject: Reminder Ludi Apollinares, 3/20/2010, 12:00 pm
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74548 From: publiusalbucius Date: 2010-03-20
Subject: AEDILIS CURULIS candidates
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74549 From: corvulus@ymail.com Date: 2010-03-20
Subject: novus civis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74550 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2010-03-20
Subject: Spring Rite by Sacerdos Veneris Genetricis L. Iulia Aquila
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74551 From: C.Maria Caeca Date: 2010-03-20
Subject: Re: Spring Rite by Sacerdos Veneris Genetricis L. Iulia Aquila
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74552 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2010-03-20
Subject: Re: novus civis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74553 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2010-03-20
Subject: Re: Spring Rite by Sacerdos Veneris Genetricis L. Iulia Aquila
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74554 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2010-03-20
Subject: Re: novus civis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74555 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2010-03-20
Subject: Re: novus civis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74556 From: Publius Memmius Albucius Date: 2010-03-20
Subject: Comitia centuriata call to order (next 29/3-10/4)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74557 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2010-03-21
Subject: Re: novus civis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74558 From: Kirsteen Wright Date: 2010-03-21
Subject: Re: Spring Rite by Sacerdos Veneris Genetricis L. Iulia Aquila
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74559 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2010-03-21
Subject: How can I find what I search?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74560 From: iulius sabinus Date: 2010-03-21
Subject: Re: How can I find what I search?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74561 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-03-21
Subject: a. d. XII Kalendas Apriles: Septmatras; Ovid; Approaching the Gods
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74562 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2010-03-21
Subject: Re: How can I find what I search?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74563 From: albmd323232 Date: 2010-03-21
Subject: Purchasing Roman-style sculptures
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74564 From: C.Maria Caeca Date: 2010-03-21
Subject: Re: Purchasing Roman-style sculptures
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74565 From: GAIUS MARCIUS CRISPUS Date: 2010-03-21
Subject: Gaius Marcius Crispus - probable absence
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74566 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2010-03-21
Subject: Re: Purchasing Roman-style sculptures
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74567 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2010-03-21
Subject: Re: Gaius Marcius Crispus - probable absence
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74568 From: C.Maria Caeca Date: 2010-03-21
Subject: Re: Gaius Marcius Crispus - probable absence
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74569 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2010-03-21
Subject: Re: How can I find what I search?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74570 From: Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator Date: 2010-03-21
Subject: Re: Gaius Marcius Crispus - probable absence
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74571 From: C.Maria Caeca Date: 2010-03-21
Subject: Re: How can I find what I search?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74572 From: GAIUS MARCIUS CRISPUS Date: 2010-03-21
Subject: Gaius Marcius Crispus - probable absence
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74573 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-03-22
Subject: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74574 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-22
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74575 From: Robert Date: 2010-03-22
Subject: Test
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74576 From: publiusalbucius Date: 2010-03-22
Subject: Re: Test
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74577 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-03-22
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74578 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-23
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74579 From: Marcus Valerius Corvus Date: 2010-03-23
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74580 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-03-23
Subject: a. d. X Kalendas Apriles: TUBILUSTRiUM, Neria of Mars
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74581 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2010-03-23
Subject: Senate March 2763 session.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74582 From: Marcus Valerius Corvus Date: 2010-03-23
Subject: Re: novus civis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74583 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-03-23
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74584 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-23
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74585 From: Marcus Valerius Corvus Date: 2010-03-23
Subject: De imperii Romani fine
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74586 From: publiusalbucius Date: 2010-03-23
Subject: Quaestors : addresses pls! *URGENT*
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74588 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2010-03-23
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74589 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2010-03-23
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74590 From: phoenixfyre17 Date: 2010-03-23
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74591 From: C.Maria Caeca Date: 2010-03-23
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74592 From: Jennifer Harris Date: 2010-03-23
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74593 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2010-03-23
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74594 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-03-23
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74595 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-23
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74596 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-03-24
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74597 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-24
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74598 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-03-24
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74599 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-03-24
Subject: a. d. IX Kalendas Apriles: Q. R. C. F. and dies Sanguis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74600 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-03-24
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74601 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-03-24
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74602 From: T. Annaeus Regulus Date: 2010-03-24
Subject: Oath of Office of T. Annaeus Regulus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74603 From: Jennifer Harris Date: 2010-03-24
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74604 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-24
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74605 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-24
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74606 From: tpontiussilanus Date: 2010-03-24
Subject: The Gospel According to the Romans
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74607 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-03-24
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74608 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-03-24
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74609 From: Charlie Collins Date: 2010-03-24
Subject: Wikipedia: Ancient Rome Portal
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74610 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-25
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74611 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-03-25
Subject: a. d. VIII Kalendas Apriles: Hilaria of Attys
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74612 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-03-25
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74613 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-03-25
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74614 From: Jennifer Harris Date: 2010-03-25
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74615 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-03-25
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74616 From: Ass.Pomerium Date: 2010-03-25
Subject: Celebrazioni del Natale di Roma: 16-17-18 Aprile a Roma
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74617 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-25
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74618 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-25
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74619 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-03-26
Subject: a. d. VII Kalendas Apriles: Requietio
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74620 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-03-26
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74621 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-03-26
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74622 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2010-03-26
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74623 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-03-26
Subject: Syncretism [was Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74624 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-26
Subject: Syncretism [was Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74625 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-03-26
Subject: Syncretism [was Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74626 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2010-03-26
Subject: Syncretism [was Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74627 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-03-26
Subject: Syncretism [was Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74628 From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com Date: 2010-03-27
Subject: Reminder Ludi Apollinares, 3/27/2010, 12:00 pm
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74629 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-03-27
Subject: a. d. VI Kalendas Apriles: Lavatio of the Magna Mater
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74630 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-03-27
Subject: Syncretism [was Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74631 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-27
Subject: Lazarus Saturday
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74633 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-27
Subject: Syncretism [was Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74634 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-27
Subject: ATTIS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74635 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-03-27
Subject: Re: ATTIS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74636 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-27
Subject: Re: ATTIS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74637 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-03-27
Subject: Re: ATTIS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74638 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-27
Subject: Re: ATTIS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74639 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2010-03-27
Subject: Re: ATTIS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74640 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-27
Subject: Re: ATTIS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74641 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2010-03-27
Subject: Re: ATTIS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74642 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-03-27
Subject: Re: ATTIS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74643 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-27
Subject: Re: ATTIS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74644 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-03-28
Subject: Re: ATTIS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74645 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-28
Subject: Re: ATTIS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74646 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-03-28
Subject: Re: ATTIS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74647 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2010-03-28
Subject: Re: ATTIS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74648 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-03-28
Subject: a. d. V Kalendas Apriles: Sol et Luna; Didius Julianus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74649 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-28
Subject: Palm Sunday
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74650 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-28
Subject: Re: a. d. V Kalendas Apriles: Sol et Luna; Didius Julianus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74652 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2010-03-28
Subject: Re: Palm Sunday
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74653 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-03-28
Subject: Re: Palm Sunday
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74654 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2010-03-28
Subject: Re: Palm Sunday
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74655 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-03-28
Subject: defixiones and dates [wasRe: Palm Sunday]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74656 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-28
Subject: defixiones and dates [wasRe: Palm Sunday]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74657 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2010-03-28
Subject: defixiones and dates [wasRe: Palm Sunday]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74658 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-03-28
Subject: defixiones and dates [wasRe: Palm Sunday]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74659 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-03-28
Subject: defixiones and dates [wasRe: Palm Sunday]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74660 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2010-03-28
Subject: defixiones and dates [wasRe: Palm Sunday]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74662 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-28
Subject: defixiones and dates [wasRe: Palm Sunday]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74663 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-03-28
Subject: defixiones and dates [wasRe: Palm Sunday]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74664 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2010-03-29
Subject: defixiones and dates [wasRe: Palm Sunday]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74665 From: Timothy or Stephen Gallagher Date: 2010-03-29
Subject: Formal request that the Tribunes VETO the proposed SCU
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74666 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-03-29
Subject: a. d. IV Kalendas Apriles: Capillori
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74667 From: Andreas Lachmann Date: 2010-03-29
Subject: Lararivm
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74668 From: Andreas Date: 2010-03-29
Subject: Re: Lararivm
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74669 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-29
Subject: Re: Formal request that the Tribunes VETO the proposed SCU
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74670 From: titus_iulius_calvus Date: 2010-03-29
Subject: Ancient Rome & America Exhibit
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74671 From: publiusalbucius Date: 2010-03-29
Subject: Comitia centuriata open
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74672 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-03-29
Subject: Re: Lararivm
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74673 From: C.Maria Caeca Date: 2010-03-29
Subject: Re: Ancient Rome & America Exhibit
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74674 From: flavius_vedius Date: 2010-03-29
Subject: Re: Lararivm
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74675 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-03-29
Subject: defixiones and dates [wasRe: Palm Sunday]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74676 From: Timothy or Stephen Gallagher Date: 2010-03-29
Subject: Tribunes
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74677 From: Timothy or Stephen Gallagher Date: 2010-03-29
Subject: Tribunes
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74678 From: C.Maria Caeca Date: 2010-03-29
Subject: Re: Comitia centuriata open
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74679 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2010-03-29
Subject: Re: Comitia centuriata open
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74680 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2010-03-29
Subject: Re: Lararivm
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74681 From: C.Maria Caeca Date: 2010-03-29
Subject: Re: Comitia centuriata open



Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74502 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-03-14
Subject: Pridie Eidus Martias: Equirria, Mamuralia
M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus Quiritibus, cultores Deorum et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit: Deos ego omnis ut fortunas sint precor

Hodie est die Pristini Eidus Martias; haec dies nefastus publica est: Equirria; Mamuralia; Argo navis exoritur, Favonius aut Auster, interdum Aquilo.


"Behold, a shield fell, trembling in the light breeze. The sound of the crowd's shouting reached the stars. The king first sacrificed a heifer that had never known the yoke, then raised the gift from the ground, and called it ancile, because it was cut away all round, and there wasn't a single angle to note. Then, remembering the empire's fate was involved, he thought of a very cunning idea. He ordered many shields cut in the same shape, in order to confuse the eyes of any traitor. Mamurius carried out the task: whether he was superior in his craft or his character it would be hard to say. Gracious Numa said to him: 'Ask a reward for your work, you'll not ask in vain of one known for honesty.' He'd already given weapons to the Salii, named from their leaping dance, and words to be sung to a certain tune. Mamurius replied: 'Give me glory as my prize, and let my name be sounded at the song's end.' So the priests grant the reward promised for his Ancient work, and now call out 'Mamurius'." ~ Ovidius Naso, Fasti 3.373-392


The day prior to the Ides of March was dedicated to the memory of Mamurius. Servius Honorius said that in his honor the Salii beat
skins in the fashion of a smith beating metal into shape (Ad Aeneis 7.188). Minucius Felix likewise mentioned the Salii beating hides
(Octavius 24.3). This ritual would seem to have involved driving our disease and other ills just before the beginning of the New Year on the Ides. It can be compared to rites in villages the world over, where cultures employ dance and drums to drive away evil spirits.

In the sixth century CE Laurentius Lydus of Apamea wrote De Mensibus (3.29 and 4.36) in which he said that on the Ides of March a man dressed in animal skins was driven with long wands, peeled of their bark, and that the crowd called "Mamurius" after him. However no mention of such a ritual is given by Ovid in his account of the Fasti, nor is it mentioned by Servius, Varro, Verrius, Dionysius of Halicarnassus, nor by Plutarch. It does not make sense that such authors would have overlooked such an aspect of the ritual if driving a man from the City were actually part of the day's festivities. While modern speculations accepted that such a rite existed, it is easier to understand, and more parallels exist, that drumming was used rather than some scapegoat.


Equirria

"When he who, with his swift chariot, brings bright day Has raised his disc six times, and immersed it again, You will see horse races again on the Campus, That grassy plain that Tiber's winding waters wash. But if by chance it's flooded by overflowing waves, The dusty Caelian Hill will accept the horses." ~ Ovidius Naso, Fasti 3.517-522

"Today the circus holds all of Rome" (Juvenal 11.197), as two-horse chariot races were also held on this day, the Equirria, in honor of Mars.

"Mars, whether thou reclinest on cloud-capped Haemus, or frost-white Rhodope holdeth thee, or Athos, severed to give passage to the
Persian fleet, or Pangaeus, gloomy with dark holm-oaks, gird thyself at my side and de thine own land of Thrace. If victory smile on us, thy meed shall be an oak stump adorned with spoils."

"Hearing his prayer, Father Mars arose from the snow-topped crag of Mount Haemus exhorting His swift ministers: "Bellona, bring my helmet; attend me, Pavor, fasten the wheels upon my war chariot; Formido, bridle my swift horses in harness. Hastily press forward on your work. See, (he) makes ready himself for war; Stilicho whose habit it is to load me with rich trophies and hang upon the oak the plumed helmets of his enemies. For us together the trumpets ever sound the call to battle; yoking my chariot I follow wheresoever he pitches his camp." ~ Claudius Claudianus, In Rufino 1.334-48


AUC 975 / 222 CE: Alexander Severus acceded to the titles of Augustus, Pater Patria, and Pontifex Maximus

He was also given proconsular command, and the privilege of making five proposals at each session of the Senate. His proposals would have precedent before all others and five was the maximum given to any emperor, although some had fewer. He refused the honorific name Antoninus since he was not an Antonine, but was counted among the good emperors from the beginning of his reign.

"He forbade men to call him Lord, and he gave orders that people should write to him as they would to a commoner, retaining only the title Imperator. He removed from the imperial footwear and garments all the jewels that had been used by Elagabalus, and he wore a plain white robe without any gold, just as he is always depicted, and ordinary cloaks and togas. He associated with his friends on such familiar terms that he would sit with them as equals, attend their banquets, have some of them as his own daily guests, even when they were not formally summoned, and hold a morning levee like any senator with open curtains and without the presence of ushers, or, at least, with none but those who acted as attendants at the doors, whereas previously it was not possible for people to pay their respects to the emperor for the reason that he could not see them." ~ Historia Augusta, Life of Alexander Severus 4.1-3


Today's thought is from Marcus Aurelius, Meditations 10.5:

"Whatever may happen to thee, it was being prepared for thee from all eternity; and the matrix of causes was from eternity spinning the thread of thy being, and the incidence of this particular happening."
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74503 From: GAIUS MARCIUS CRISPUS Date: 2010-03-14
Subject: News from Britannia - Lighting up Hadrian's Wall
Salvete omnes <http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8565759.stm>

A large team of volunteers from around the world have taken part in a
project to illuminate the entire length of Hadrian's wall.

A video of the occasion is at the following link, and there are other
links available from this site.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8565759.stm
<http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8565759.stm>

I hope you enjoy the various links.

Valete omnes

Crispus





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74504 From: Cn. Cornelius Lentulus Date: 2010-03-14
Subject: SECOND EQUIRRIA - for the Nova Roman State
Cn. Lentulus pontifex consulibus, praetoribus, senatui populoque Novo Romano s. p. d.


Salvete Quirites et Commilitones!

Today is the Second Equirria, and Mars Pater is celebrated. Currently there is no Flamen Martialis, so traditionally his duty is undertaken by one of pontifices. As pontifex, I conducted the First Equirria Sacrificial Ceremony in February, I conduct the second one, too, today, before my home altar.

We honour all soldiers and retired soldiers among us, who do serve and served in any of the world's armed forces, and we ask Father Mars, the Father of the Roman people, that he bless them and their families and their lives.

We honour all Nova Roman legionary reenactors among us again, who continue the symbolic traditions of the Roman Army as a honour guard and as a demonstrative and educational military, and we ask Father Mars to support them and to give them success in their efforts.

Nova Roma was born in the first day of the month of Father Mars, so Nova Roma is under the protection of Mars, we can placate him with our offerings and prayers, and finally we will triumph!

The text of the ritual I will do today is this (with English translation):

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
SECOND EQUIRRIA RITUAL TO MARS FOR THE QUIRITIAN PEOPLE OF NOVA ROMA


1) PRAEFATIO

"Mars Pater,
te hoc ture commovendo
bonas preces precor,
uti sies volens propitius
Senatui Populoque Novo Romano Quiritibus,
consulibus, praetoribus, praesidibus provinciarum,
omnibus militibus veris et propriis
atque omnibus militibus legionum reconstructivarum,
collegio pontificum,
mihi, domo, familiae!"

[Father Mars,
by offering this incense to you
I pray good prayers so
that you may be benevolent and propitious
to the Quiritian Senate and People of Nova Roma,
to the consuls, praetors and provincial governors,
to every real soldier serving in armies,
as well as to every soldier in the reenactor legions,
to the college of the pontiffs,
to me, to my household and to my family.]

- I placed incense in the focus of the altar.

"Mars Pater,
uti te ture commovendo
bonas preces bene precatus sum,
eiusdem rei ergo
macte vino inferio esto"

[Father Mars,
as by offering to you the incense
I have well prayed good prayers,
for the very same reason
be thou blessed by this sacrificial wine.]

- I poured a libation on the altar.


2) SACRIFICIUM I

"Mars pater,
quod tibi fieri oportet culignam vini dapi,
eius rei ergo macte
hac illace dape pullucenda esto!"

[Father Mars,
to you it is proper for a cup of wine to be given,
for the sake of this thing therefore may you be blessed
by this feast offering].

- I poured a libation on the altar and added laurel for Mars.


3) PRECATIO

"Mars Pater,
qui currui temporis equos citos iungis
ut mensem Martium adducas,
te precor, venerorque,
quaeso, obtestorque,
uti fortitudinem constantiamque,
vim ac virtutem gravitatemque,
imperium magnum maiestatemque,
auctoritatem severitatemque,
victoriam valetudinemque
populo Novo Romano Quiritibus,
Reique Publicae Populi Novi Romani Quiritium
semper tribuas;
utique milites Novos Romanos veros et proprios custodias;
militesque legionum reconstructivarum ipsasque legiones adiuves;
utique sies volens propitius
Senatui Populoque Novo Romano Quiritibus,
consulibus, praetoribus, praesidibus provinciarum,
omnibus militibus veris et propriis
atque omnibus militibus legionum reconstructivarum,
legatis, tribunis, centurionibus,
collegio pontificum,
mihi, domo, familiae!"

[Father Mars,
who hitch your swift horses to the chariot of time
to bring on the month of March,
I ask and revere you,
I pray and beseech you
so that you may grant
fortitude and constancy,
strength, virtue and gravity,
great power and majesty,
initiative and seriousness,
victory and safety
to the Quiritian people of Nova Roma,
to the Republic of the Quiritian people of Nova Roma;
so that you may take care of every soldier in Nova Roma serving in armies;
and may support every soldier in the reenactor legions and their legions;
so that you may be benevolent and propitious
to the Quiritian Senate and People of Nova Roma,
to the consuls, praetors and provincial governors,
to every real soldier serving in armies,
as well as to every soldier in the reenactor legions,
to the legates, tribunes and centurions,
to the college of the pontiffs,
to me, to my household and to my family.]


4) SACRIFICIUM II

"Quarum rerum ergo macte
hoc libo libando,
hoc vino libando,
huc thure obmovendo
esto fito volens propitius
Senatui Populoque Novo Romano Quiritibus,
consulibus, praetoribus, praesidibus provinciarum,
omnibus militibus veris et propriis
atque omnibus militibus legionum reconstructivarum,
legatis, tribunis, centurionibus,
collegio pontificum,
mihi, domo, familiae!"

[For all these reasons, thou blessed
by offering this libum,
by offering this wine,
by offering this incense
be benevolent and propitious
to the Quiritian Senate and People of Nova Roma,
to the consuls, praetors and provincial governors,
to every real soldier serving in armies,
as well as to every soldier in the reenactor legions,
to the legates, tribunes and centurions,
to the college of the pontiffs,
to me, to my household and to my family.]

- Libum, wine and incense were sacrificed.


5) REDDITIO

"Mars Pater,
qui in campo tuo certamen Equirriae semper prospicis,
macte istace dape pollucenda esto,
macte vino inferio esto"

[Father Mars,
who always observe from afar the race of the Equirria on your own field, may you be blessed by this feast offering,
may you be blessed by the sacrificial wine.]"

- I offered Mars Pater laurel, cakes and wine on the altar.

"Illicet!"

[It is permitted to go.]

- End of the ceremony.


6) PIACULUM

"Iane,
Mars Pater,
Iuppiter Optime Maxmime, Iuno, Minerva,
Concordia,
Omnes Di Immortales quocumque nomine:
si quidquam vonis in hac caerimonia displicuit,
hoc ture veniam peto
et vitium meum expio."

[Ianus,
Father Mars,
Iuppiter, The Best and Greatest, Iuno, Minerva,
Concordia,
All Gods Immortal by whathever name I may call you:
if anything in this ceremony is displeasing to you,
with this incense and wine I ask forgiveness
and expiate my fault.]

- I offered incense on the altar and poured a libation on the altar.


MARS NOS PROTEGE!

MARS NOS CONSERVA!!

MARS NOS GLORIFICA!!!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74505 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2010-03-14
Subject: Re: NR Parody Writing Contest - THIRD BEST PARODY by M. Hortensia Ma
Salve Maior,
I was joking! I don't see myself spending months to embroider a peace sign.
We might make a painted one if we manage to make a film out of Dexter's
comedy, though. It would make it looke like "The life of Brian"!

Optime vale,
Livia

----- Original Message -----
From: "rory12001" <rory12001@...>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 1:51 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: NR Parody Writing Contest - THIRD BEST PARODY by M.
Hortensia Maior


Salvete Aeternia Liviaque spd;
hehe, it was hard to get started and I admit seeing Lentulus as a Roman
John Lennon inspired me;-) I admire and am very fond of Lentulus and I saw
you Aeternia that way too.

It was a very cathartic experience, laughing at yourself is uber necessary
and then it was fun to see if I could nail many NR personalities in a single
line.
Livia do it, that peace sign would really signify the new and old NR;-)
love it!
vale
Maior
>
> Salve Aeternia,
> right! I'm sorely tempted to make an embroidered peace sign, to be sown on
> Lentulus' 4th century tunic! LOL!
>
> Optime vale,
> Livia
>
>
> > Salve
> >
> > You know when I read this, I keep picturing Lentulus and myself drabbed
> > as
> > Roman Hippies with pyschedelic shades and peace signs everywhere. A
> > complete upside of my doom & gloom self, alrighty then. This was
> > shorter
> > than our dear Cato's, but considering who the author was of this piece,
> > I
> > believe this was an attempt at being somewhat kind.
> >
> > It brought a couple chuckles, kudos!
> >
> >
> > Vale,
> > Aeternia
> >
> > On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 4:00 AM, Cn. Cornelius Lentulus <
> > cn_corn_lent@...> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> The third best piece of work of the 1st "Nova Roman Parody Writing
> >> Contest":
> >>
> >> PARODY
> >>
> >> Dialogues
> >>
> >> by M. Hortensia Maior
> >>
> >> "No particular theme, just a collocation of the absurd type of things
> >> everyone has said at some point. There was missing a stronger cohesion
> >> and
> >> some kind of continuity of the dialogues and composition of the
> >> structure, but the author was absolutely hilarious, she caught the
> >> characters
> >> perfectly, and she indeed did not spare herself! Albucius' Franglish
> >> was
> >> a
> >> very well delivered joke! Perhaps, this work should have been a
> >> little longer, giving more than one line to the most of the characters.
> >> She got the message of the Parody Writing Contest and she was indeed
> >> very impartial and "mild" even to her opponents. An excellent endeavor
> >> to the friendly, funny spirit we needed so much. It flowed quickly, and
> >> that's good for a parody. It was really close to be the second best!
> >> Congratulations!"
> >>
> >> /THE JURY/
> >>
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------
> >> The Parody
> >>
> >> Lentulus: Today because I love each and every one of you. yes it's
> >> true, I want to give you all a big kiss, and a hug, evenly, not
> >> discriminating, where was I? oh I'm holding a parody competition, I'd
> >> like everyone to enter:)
> >>
> >> Messallina: I will.
> >>
> >> Sulla: **xxx!! YOU will NOT
> >>
> >> Cato:
> >> the Lex Ignorantia paragraph 6 subsection 3 of the Nova Roma
> >> Constitution states, and I repeat, it says...blah blah blah YOU MUST
> >> OBEY THE LAW
> >>
> >> Maior: Rubbish, if you only read the right sources
> >> then you would know everything like I do but you dont. So I'm right and
> >> you're wrong!!!
> >>
> >> Messallina: I just want to write a parody. It's not a big deal.
> >>
> >> Graecus;
> >> can women write parodies? or is this another example of modern feminism
> >> run riot,let me look into the original greek, ah yes, Graphoi me
> >> gynaikia; women can't.
> >>
> >> Cicero: I agree
> >>
> >> Enodia; me tooo!
> >>
> >> Modianus; no that's wrong; it's the modern world, all women can write
> >> parodies at any time everywhere.
> >>
> >> Piscinus:
> >> today is the Altipenultimate feria of the most obscure deity in the
> >> world, and I'll tell you all about it, with a pithy line of philosophy
> >> just to round it off.
> >>
> >> Sulla: NO YOU WON"T XXX****^^!
> >>
> >> Aeternia: hey guys let's calm down.
> >>
> >> Lentulus: yes let's love one another, let's hold hands and hug, and
> >> maybe
> >> sing Kumbaya.
> >>
> >> Petronius: that's not Latin I won't sing it.
> >>
> >> Scholastica; Bene, quomodo scisne.......... and please take Latin
> >> classes
> >>
> >> Cato: I am right!!! You must all follow the LAW!
> >>
> >> Maior: Don't listen to him! He hasn't read the Lex Obscurania & I read
> >> it
> >> twice.
> >>
> >> Julia Aquila: Let's sing a nice Latin song and maybe this all will
> >> stop.
> >>
> >> Livia Plauta; good idea Julia, maybe though I am doubtful, maybe
> >> everyone
> >> should wear a phallic amulet and that will help.
> >>
> >> Scholastica; she said phallic!
> >>
> >> Albucius:
> >> VETO! I was the praetor, the very best praetor Nova Roma ever had and
> >> by precising the Lex Dirty Words, I can charge to you that being
> >> precising, I will warn but not moderate you for that.
> >>
> >> Quintillianus: you are all my friends, I think we can all see reason.
> >> Let
> >> me phone you and you will all love me all over again.
> >>
> >> Lentulus: if we just kissed!!
> >>
> >> Agricola: I'm going to say something extremely subtle that most people
> >> won't understand
> >>
> >> Gn.
> >> Iulius Caesar: of course women can't write parodies, and I can explain
> >> this to you very clearly in 145 pages of single spaced incredibly long
> >> paragraph because I wrote it and it is brilliant.
> >>
> >> Saturninus: I predict it will be a very argumentitive year. I have some
> >> nice calendar for sale..
> >>
> >> Novus Romanus: Hello I'm a new ciitizen and I was wondering.....
> >>
> >> Everyone: SHUT UP!!!! Don't you dare interrupt our argument.
> >>
> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74506 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2010-03-14
Subject: Re: NR Parody Writing Contest - SECOND BEST PARODY by C. Petronius D
Livia Petronio sal.


> For example about the word "feu sacré" wich in French could lead to many
> funny things... >and many others.

LOL! i can imagine!

>I knew the 3 classical unities: unity of action, unity of place and unity
>of time. But I did not >know the 5 aristotelian unities...

My mistake, I thought they were 5. But I couldn't remember the other two ...
They were defined by Aristoteles.

>During the next Parilia at Rome?

I won't be there for Parilia. I will keep my energies and money for the NR
meeting in June.

Optime vale,
Livia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74507 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2010-03-14
Subject: Re: NR Parody Writing Contest - SECOND BEST PARODY by C. Petronius D
Livia Scholasticae sal.

I meant that it would have gotten the first place if written in English.

Optime vale,
Livia
>
> ATS: No, though writing in a language not one¹s own is a
> consideration.
> This earned second place because it was good, and very clever, if not
> quite so
> much so as that of Cato. The references to the Aeneid and the founding of
> Rome, plus the touches about incinerated augural birdies on a dies
> comitialis
> were among the highlights here. I translated this for the benefit of the
> elementary Latin students in the jury.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74508 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-14
Subject: Re: NR Parody Writing Contest - SECOND BEST PARODY by C. Petronius D
Cato Liviae

O.o

Vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Livia Plauta" <livia.plauta@...> wrote:
>
> Livia Scholasticae sal.
>
> I meant that it would have gotten the first place if written in English.
>
> Optime vale,
> Livia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74509 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2010-03-14
Subject: Re: NR Parody Writing Contest - SECOND BEST PARODY by C. Petronius D
>
>
> Scholastica Liviae S.P.D.
>
>
> Livia Scholasticae sal.
>
> I meant that it would have gotten the first place if written in English.
>
> ATS: No, I don¹t think that was the issue at all; Lentulus chose jurors
> who knew at least some Latin, and respected Latin. In any case, I translated
> it (roughly, given that I had less than 12 hours to judge the entries, and 7-8
> of those were scheduled for sleep). Several of us arrived at the same
> relative rankings, and Cato and Dexter were very, very close in points. I
> wish all could have received some prize.
>
> Optime vale,
> Livia
>
> Optimé vale.
>
>
>> >
>> > ATS: No, though writing in a language not one¹s own is a
>> > consideration.
>> > This earned second place because it was good, and very clever, if not
>> > quite so
>> > much so as that of Cato. The references to the Aeneid and the founding of
>> > Rome, plus the touches about incinerated augural birdies on a dies
>> > comitialis
>> > were among the highlights here. I translated this for the benefit of the
>> > elementary Latin students in the jury.
>
>
>
>
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74510 From: Marcus Audens Date: 2010-03-14
Subject: Wiki Webmaster
Can anyone put me in contact with the NRWiki Webmaster? I need to change some arrangements in order to access materials in the NRWiki and finish the work that I have begun there as a commitment some time ago..

Respectfully;

Marcus Audens




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74511 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2010-03-15
Subject: Re: NR Parody Writing Contest - SECOND BEST PARODY by C. Petronius D
C. Petronius Liviae Plautae s.p.d.,

> I won't be there for Parilia. I will keep my energies and money for the NR meeting in June.

I certainly missed something, when in June and where in earth will be the NR meeting?

Optime vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
Idibus Martiis P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74512 From: A. Decia Scriptrix Date: 2010-03-15
Subject: Pilum XI and Roman Times Quarterly - Winter issues
Salvete Omnes,

The winter editions of this publications have been uploaded to the Nova
Roma, New Roman and the Sodalitas Militarum's Group files for your perusal
and enjoyment.

A Decia Scriptrix


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74513 From: Cn. Cornelius Lentulus Date: 2010-03-15
Subject: R: [Nova-Roma] Wiki Webmaster
Cn. Lentulus magister aranearius M. Audenti senatori sal.

I contact you privately, Senator!

I am he wiki webmaster.


Vale!
Cn. Lentulus















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74514 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-03-15
Subject: EIDUS MARTIAE: Anna Perenna; Procession of the Palms
M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus Quiritibus, cultores Deorum, et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit: Salvete, vosque bona Iuppiter auctet ope.

Hodie est Eidus Martiae; haec dies nefastus piaculum est: Feriae Iovi; feriae Annae Perennae Via Flaminia ad lapidem primum; Nepa incipit occidere, significat tempestatem.

"On the Ides the happy feast of Anna Perenna is held, not far from your banks, far flowing river, Tiber. The plebeians stream out of the City, scattered onto the verdant grass, there to drink, and every man reclines with his girl. Some endure the open sky beneath Jupiter, a few pitch tents, and some make shelters of fronds and boughs, while others set reeds up, as stakes on which to hang their outspread robes. But they grow warmed with sun and wine, and they pray for as many years as the number of cups of wine they drink." ~ P. Ovidius Naso, Fasti 3.523-532

During the Regal Period the Terra Regis was that tract of land outside Rome that lay beside the River Tiber. The people jointly
worked the king's land (Servius Honorius, Ad Aeneis 2.272). But with the expulsion of Tarquinius Superbus, the king's land became ager publici and was renamed Campus Martius. The celebration of the plebeian may go back to such a time as those days on which they jointly worked the king's land, which would have been made into a festive time. There is also a story connected to this celebration. When the plebeians seceded from the City to the Sacred Mountain in 494 BCE they soon ran short of food. Anna of Bovilla, an old and poor widow baked bread each day and brought it to the plebeians. She was then related to the annual circuit of the moon, the perennial moon, as Anna Perenna. She came to represent the flow of years and was celebrated on the first full moon of the New Year; the Ides of March.

Still another story, told by Ovid, is that Mars wished to marry Minerva and went to Anna for help. She told him that she would
arrange everything, so Mars returned to his home and prepared the nuptial couch. A veiled bride duly arrived, but when Mars went to
kiss His bride, unveiled, she was revealed as old Anna. The other Gods laughed as once more Mars became the fool to love. This tale,
too, seems to have come from the popular religion, one of folk tales rather than high poetry.

The State religion began as a reflection of the domestic cultus of the king's family, or so it is thought. But the religio populi
Romani that Cicero so named consisted of much more than just the sacra publici of the State. With the celebration of Anna Perenna at
what is a New Year's celebration, we have an example of a festival that was not part of the State religion, not on any fasti, but was
celebrated by the plebeians exclusively. There are other distinctly plebeian culti Deorum, just as there were distinctly patrician culti
Deorum. This celebration of the Ides with the plebeians streaming from the City, came at the same time that magistrates were conducting rites inside the City; it was at this time that the Consules announced the date of the feriae Latinae. This points to a time when the plebeian culti Deorum were separate from the State religion. The change seems to have begun in 300 BCE with the passage of the lex Olgunia that made plebeian pontifices and augures, after the decemviri sacris faciudis had already been opened to plebeians, as had all of the magisterial offices. Then, during the Hannibalic War, the introduction of the Magna Mater shows that a distinction still remained between a patrician cultus and a plebeian cultus, but that the State religion was quickly fusing under the pressure of the war.


Procession of the Palms

During the imperial era, Rome would witness the cannophori of Attis streaming from the City on the Ides of March. They went in search of His sacred pine. As they did so, they would carry strands of palms, waving them in the air. The canophori, or "tree-bearers," went into the nearby hills to gather pines. Smaller pines would be brought into individual homes. Initially these were left undecorated, but later in the festival, with the Resurrection of Attis, the pine trees would be decorated with red candles, fruits, and images of the Gods. But the quest of today's procession was to find the one particularly tall pine that would be carried back to the City, buried in the Forum for three days, mourned for the death of Attis, before it was then raised from its tomb, victorious over death at the beginning of spring, in the joyous celebration of the Hilaria. On this festival Sallustius:

"Now the Mother of the Gods is the principle that generates life; that is why she is called Mother. Attis is the creator of all things which are born and die; that is why he is said to have been found by the river Gallus. For Gallus signifies the Galaxy, or Milky Way, the point at which body subject to passion begins. Now as the primary Gods make perfect the secondary, the Mother loves Attis and gives him celestial powers. That is what the cap means. Attis loves a nymph: the nymphs preside over generation, since all that is generated is fluid. But since the process of generation must be stopped somewhere, and not allowed to generate something worse than the worst, the creator who makes these things casts away his generative powers into the creation and is joined to the Gods again. . . .

"And at first we ourselves, having fallen from heaven and living with the nymph, are in despondency, and abstain from corn and all rich and unclean food, for both are hostile to the soul. Then comes the cutting of the tree and the fast, as though we also were cutting off the further process of generation. After that the feeding on milk, as though we were being born again; after which come rejoicings and garlands and, as it were, a return up to the Gods.

"The season of the ritual is evidence to the truth of these explanations. The rites are performed about the Vernal equinox, when the fruits of the earth are ceasing to be produced, and day is becoming longer than night, which applies well to spirits rising higher. (At least, the other equinox is in mythology the time of the rape of Kore, which is the descent of the souls.)

"May these explanations of the myths find favour in the eyes of the Gods themselves and the souls of those who wrote the myths." ~ Sallustius, On the Gods and the World 4


Today's thought is from Marcus Aurelius, Meditations 5.37:

"'There was a time once when I would meet with luck at every turn.' But luck is the good fortune that you determine for yourself: and
good fortune is found in the good disposition of the soul, good impulses of the emotions, and the good of right actions."
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74515 From: Ugo Coppola Date: 2010-03-15
Subject: LUDI NOVI ROMANI 2763 AUC: OFFICIAL ÆDILICIAN CLOSING STATEMENT
�dilis Curulis Publius Ann�us Constantinus Placidus omnibus civibus,
peregrinisque bon� voluntatis salutem plurimam dicit.

Hereby, I do declare the MMDCCLXIII edition of the Ludi Novi Romani
officially *CLOSED*.

On behalf of the �dilitas of Nova Roma, I would like to thank all of the
participants, entrants and competitors in the Chariot Race and in the
Third Edition of "Ipse Dixit", also inviting them to join me during the
next and upcoming Ludi events. I would also like to express my deepest,
sincerest and heartfelt gratitude to the whole of the Cohors �dilicia,
and in particular to my scrib�, Gn�us Cornelius Lentulus, Lucia Iulia
Aquila and Gaia Maria C�ca for all of their hard work and dedication.
These Ludi were very much the result of a team effort, and they could
have never have turned out as excellently as they did without the
invaluable cooperation of the entire Cohors, so thanks very much to all
of its members.

Optime valete omnes,
P. Ann. Con. Placidus
�dilis Curulis Nov� Rom�



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74516 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-15
Subject: BEWARE!
Cato omnibus in foro SPD

"Beware the ides of March." - William Shakespeare, "Julius Caesar"
(Soothsayer at I.ii)

"A certain seer warned Caesar to be on his guard against a great peril
on the day of the month of March which the Romans call the Ides; and
when the day had come and Caesar was on his way to the senate-house,
he greeted the seer with a jest and said: "Well, the Ides of March are
come," and the seer said to him softly: "Ay, they are come, but they
are not gone." Moreover, on the day before, when Marcus Lepidus was
entertaining him at supper, Caesar chanced to be signing letters, as
his custom was, while reclining at table, and the discourse turned
suddenly upon the question what sort of death was the best; before any
one could answer Caesar cried out: "That which is unexpected." After
this, while he was sleeping as usual by the side of his wife, all the
windows and doors of the chamber flew open at once, and Caesar,
confounded by the noise and the light of the moon shining down upon
him, noticed that Calpurnia was in a deep slumber, but was uttering
indistinct words and inarticulate groans in her sleep; for she
dreamed, as it proved, that she was holding her murdered husband in
her arms and bewailing him...

It was Casca who gave him the first blow with his dagger, in the neck,
not a mortal would, nor even a deep one, for which he was too much
confused, as was natural at the beginning of a deed of great daring;
so that Caesar turned about, grasped the knife, and held it fast. At
almost the same instant both cried out, the smitten man in Latin:
"Accursed Casca, what does thou?" and the smiter, in Greek, to his
brother: "Brother, help!"

So the affair began, and those who were not privy to the plot were
filled with consternation and horror at what was going on; they dared
not fly, nor go to Caesar's help, nay, nor even utter a word. But
those who had prepared themselves for the murder bared each of them
his dagger, and Caesar, hemmed in on all sides, whichever way he
turned confronting blows of weapons aimed at his face and eyes, driven
hither and thither like a wild beast, was entangled in the hands of
all; for all had to take part in the sacrifice and taste of the
slaughter. Therefore Brutus also gave him one blow in the groin. And
it is said by some writers that although Caesar defended himself
against the rest and darted this way and that and cried aloud, when he
saw that Brutus had drawn his dagger, he pulled his toga down over his
head and sank, either by chance or because pushed there by his
murderers, against the pedestal on which the statue of Pompey stood.
And the pedestal was drenched with his blood, so that one might have
thought that Pompey himself was presiding over this vengeance upon his
enemy, who now lay prostrate at his feet, quivering from a multitude
of wounds. For it is said that he received twenty-three; and many of
the conspirators were wounded by one another, as they struggled to
plant all those blows in one body." - Plutarch, Lives, "Caesar"
63.5-9, 66.7-14

"The Senate rose in respect for his position when they saw him
entering. Those who were to have part in the plot stood near him.
Right next to him went Tillius Cimber, whose brother had been exiled
by Caesar. Under pretext of a humble request on behalf of this
brother, Cimber approached and grasped the mantle of his toga, seeming
to want to make a more positive move with his hands upon Caesar.
Caesar wanted to get up and use his hands, but was prevented by Cimber
and became exceedingly annoyed. That was the moment for the men to
set to work. All quickly unsheathed their daggers and rushed at him.
First Servilius Casca struck him with the point of the blade on the
left shoulder a little above the collar-bone. He had been aiming for
that, but in the excitement he missed. Caesar rose to defend himself,
and in the uproar Casca shouted out in Greek to his brother. The
latter heard him and drove his sword into the ribs. After a moment,
Cassius made a slash at his face, and Decimus Brutus pierced him in
the side. While Cassius Longinus was trying to give him another blow
he missed and struck Marcus Brutus on the hand. Minucius also hit out
at Caesar and hit Rubrius in the thigh. They were just like men doing
battle against him. Under the mass of wounds, he fell at the foot of
Pompey's statue. Everyone wanted to seem to have had some part in the
murder, and there was not one of them who failed to strike his body as
it lay there, until, wounded thirty-five times, he breathed his last."
- Nicholas of Damascus, The Assassination of Caesar

Today is, of course, infamous now because in 44 B.C. Gaius Iulius
Caesar was murdered under the statue of Pompey Magnus.

Valete bene!

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74517 From: Jennifer Harris Date: 2010-03-15
Subject: Re: BEWARE!
Aeternia Catoni sal,

Nicely done! I used to post a little something over on The Muses list on
this day as something annual.. Things like the infamous Funeral Speech
delivered by Marc Antony you know this one.

"Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears;
I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.
The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones;"

and so forth and so on.

Again I enjoyed reading this..

Vale,
Aeternia

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 9:46 AM, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:

>
>
> Cato omnibus in foro SPD
>
> "Beware the ides of March." - William Shakespeare, "Julius Caesar"
> (Soothsayer at I.ii)
>
> "A certain seer warned Caesar to be on his guard against a great peril
> on the day of the month of March which the Romans call the Ides; and
> when the day had come and Caesar was on his way to the senate-house,
> he greeted the seer with a jest and said: "Well, the Ides of March are
> come," and the seer said to him softly: "Ay, they are come, but they
> are not gone." Moreover, on the day before, when Marcus Lepidus was
> entertaining him at supper, Caesar chanced to be signing letters, as
> his custom was, while reclining at table, and the discourse turned
> suddenly upon the question what sort of death was the best; before any
> one could answer Caesar cried out: "That which is unexpected." After
> this, while he was sleeping as usual by the side of his wife, all the
> windows and doors of the chamber flew open at once, and Caesar,
> confounded by the noise and the light of the moon shining down upon
> him, noticed that Calpurnia was in a deep slumber, but was uttering
> indistinct words and inarticulate groans in her sleep; for she
> dreamed, as it proved, that she was holding her murdered husband in
> her arms and bewailing him...
>
> It was Casca who gave him the first blow with his dagger, in the neck,
> not a mortal would, nor even a deep one, for which he was too much
> confused, as was natural at the beginning of a deed of great daring;
> so that Caesar turned about, grasped the knife, and held it fast. At
> almost the same instant both cried out, the smitten man in Latin:
> "Accursed Casca, what does thou?" and the smiter, in Greek, to his
> brother: "Brother, help!"
>
> So the affair began, and those who were not privy to the plot were
> filled with consternation and horror at what was going on; they dared
> not fly, nor go to Caesar's help, nay, nor even utter a word. But
> those who had prepared themselves for the murder bared each of them
> his dagger, and Caesar, hemmed in on all sides, whichever way he
> turned confronting blows of weapons aimed at his face and eyes, driven
> hither and thither like a wild beast, was entangled in the hands of
> all; for all had to take part in the sacrifice and taste of the
> slaughter. Therefore Brutus also gave him one blow in the groin. And
> it is said by some writers that although Caesar defended himself
> against the rest and darted this way and that and cried aloud, when he
> saw that Brutus had drawn his dagger, he pulled his toga down over his
> head and sank, either by chance or because pushed there by his
> murderers, against the pedestal on which the statue of Pompey stood.
> And the pedestal was drenched with his blood, so that one might have
> thought that Pompey himself was presiding over this vengeance upon his
> enemy, who now lay prostrate at his feet, quivering from a multitude
> of wounds. For it is said that he received twenty-three; and many of
> the conspirators were wounded by one another, as they struggled to
> plant all those blows in one body." - Plutarch, Lives, "Caesar"
> 63.5-9, 66.7-14
>
> "The Senate rose in respect for his position when they saw him
> entering. Those who were to have part in the plot stood near him.
> Right next to him went Tillius Cimber, whose brother had been exiled
> by Caesar. Under pretext of a humble request on behalf of this
> brother, Cimber approached and grasped the mantle of his toga, seeming
> to want to make a more positive move with his hands upon Caesar.
> Caesar wanted to get up and use his hands, but was prevented by Cimber
> and became exceedingly annoyed. That was the moment for the men to
> set to work. All quickly unsheathed their daggers and rushed at him.
> First Servilius Casca struck him with the point of the blade on the
> left shoulder a little above the collar-bone. He had been aiming for
> that, but in the excitement he missed. Caesar rose to defend himself,
> and in the uproar Casca shouted out in Greek to his brother. The
> latter heard him and drove his sword into the ribs. After a moment,
> Cassius made a slash at his face, and Decimus Brutus pierced him in
> the side. While Cassius Longinus was trying to give him another blow
> he missed and struck Marcus Brutus on the hand. Minucius also hit out
> at Caesar and hit Rubrius in the thigh. They were just like men doing
> battle against him. Under the mass of wounds, he fell at the foot of
> Pompey's statue. Everyone wanted to seem to have had some part in the
> murder, and there was not one of them who failed to strike his body as
> it lay there, until, wounded thirty-five times, he breathed his last."
> - Nicholas of Damascus, The Assassination of Caesar
>
> Today is, of course, infamous now because in 44 B.C. Gaius Iulius
> Caesar was murdered under the statue of Pompey Magnus.
>
> Valete bene!
>
> Cato
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74518 From: A. Decia Scriptrix Date: 2010-03-15
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Salvete omnes

Almost a year later and it seems the tune has changed drastically

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1257333/51-headless-Viking-skeletons-Weymouth-ditch.html

Even the original time period was way off.

Optime vale

A Decia Scriptrix

On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 2:14 PM, Kirsteen Wright <
kirsteen.falconsfan@...> wrote:

>
>
> So was this a mass Roman war grave?
>
>
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1192353/Mass-war-grave-50-headless-bodies-Olympics-site.html
>
> Flavia Lucilla Merula
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74519 From: James Mathews Date: 2010-03-15
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] Wiki Webmaster
Magister Cn. Lentulus;

I have a problem and I am not sure why. I suppose, however, that I
must attribute it to the fact that my computer often does what I tell
it to do, and not what I want it to do (Grin!!!!!). In short, I
cannot gain access to the NR Wiki. I have gotten assistance from
previous webmasters but things still don't seem to wok out very well.
So, is there a way that whatever is blocking my entrance into the NR
Wiki can be negated and I can begin again??? My interest is several
stories that I promised one of my NR friends that I would complete and
I really hate to leave a promise like that hanging/

Respectfully;

Marcus Audens



On Mar 15, 2010, at 4:41 AM, Cn. Cornelius Lentulus wrote:

> Cn. Lentulus magister aranearius M. Audenti senatori sal.
>
> I contact you privately, Senator!
>
> I am he wiki webmaster.
>
> Vale!
> Cn. Lentulus
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74520 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2010-03-15
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Salve,

This makes more sense - The original article irresponsibly reported an unsubstantiated theory.
Thank you Decia for this update!

Vale,

Julia


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Decia Scriptrix" <a.decia.scriptrix@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete omnes
>
> Almost a year later and it seems the tune has changed drastically
>
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1257333/51-headless-Viking-skeletons-Weymouth-ditch.html
>
> Even the original time period was way off.
>
> Optime vale
>
> A Decia Scriptrix
>
> On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 2:14 PM, Kirsteen Wright <
> kirsteen.falconsfan@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > So was this a mass Roman war grave?
> >
> >
> > http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1192353/Mass-war-grave-50-headless-bodies-Olympics-site.html
> >
> > Flavia Lucilla Merula
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74521 From: C.Maria Caeca Date: 2010-03-15
Subject: Certamen Latinum, final results
C. Maria Caeca omnibus S. P. D.

I have the great pleasure to congratulate and thank all who participated in
the Certamen Latinum. You are all great sports, and there were enough of
you to be impressive. Lingua Latina pulchra is far from dead (just in case
anyone was wondering, grin).

the winner of level 1, the beginners quiz was Aula Decia Scriptrix ...a
student, currently in Gramatica I! congratulations, Scriptrix! Watch out,
esteemed Latinists, Scriptrix will, I suspect, be giving you some brisk
competition next year!

The winner of the advanced level is: (drum roll and trumpets, please), A.
Tullia Scholastica. And, lest our think she had an unfair advantage,
treading right on her hem (so to speak) and within 2 points of winning were
M. Martianus Lupus and our own Curule Aedile, Placidus. Until the last 2
questions, I was concerned that I would have to beg Lentulus to com up with
a tie breaker question!
thank you all, again, for participating, and for your patience with me. Oh
...and since the advanced question for $6 never quite saw the light of
print, I gave everyone credit for it.

respectfully,
C. Maria Caeca

P.S. I would like to especially acknowledge Julia Aquila who did extremely
well in level 1, and L. Livia Plauta, who did extremely well in level 2.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74522 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-03-15
Subject: Re: online Amulet-making workshop March 14-30
Maior Quiritibus spd;
the workshop is on now and here are some great photos of the process
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=151601&id=108339231027&ref=mf

If you forgot (like me) she will repeat it next month. There are inscriptions in Greek, Hieroglyphs, Phoenician and Ugaritic, additionally Punic was written in Latin script so repell those bad influences with an amulet.
optime vale
Maior

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> M. Hortensia Quiritibus spd;
>
> My friend Tess a Canaanite reconstructionist, is holding a free online workshop over at Whisper-of-Stone at Facebook. The materials only cost about $10
> http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=10150117049625171
>
> Phoenician and Punic amulets would be popular over the Roman world and of course you can make them deity specific, for say Minerva or Apollo if you're not a worshipper of Asherah or Eshmun, actually the later is African Apollo!
> here is her webpage as well with the details
> http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=10150117049625171#!/pages/Whisper-of-Stone-Natib-Qadish-Modern-Canaanite-Religion/108339231027?ref=ts
>
> enjoy and make sure the gods protect you!
> optime valete
> M. Hortensia Maior
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74523 From: mcorvvs Date: 2010-03-16
Subject: Re: Results of the February Senate Meeting (Corrected+comments)
MOC: I present my apologies to senatores. I've posted this version or my report just as I had the time.

Citizens of Nova Roma,

Here is the Tribunician report of the Senate session of February 25 – March 06, 2763

!!!corrected: as Ullerius (PUSV) is no longer senator! He has resigned in the Forum several weeks ago. We have 30 senators currently. Hence his name was deleted from list of Senatores who did not vote. I thank Consul Albucius for correcting my mistake.!!!

The votes have been tallied and the results are as follows:

Formal debate ended at 24.00 hrs. CET pr. Kal. Mar. (28th of February) 2763.
Voting began at 06.00 hrs. CET on a.d. V Non. Mar.(Wednesday 3rd of March) 2763 and was concluded at 16.00 hours CET on pr. Non. Mar.(Saturday 6th of March) 2763.
The following XXV Senators cast their votes on time. They are referred to by their initials which are listed in alphabetical order (with the exception of the presiding magistrate who will be listed first):
*KFBQ: K. Fabius Buteo Quintilianus, Presiding Magistrate


*ATS: A. Tullia Scholastica
*CCS: C. Curius Saturninus
*CEC: C. Equitius Cato
*CFD: C. Flavius Diocletianus
*CnEM: Cn. Equitius Marinus
*CVP: C. Vipsanius Agrippa
*DIPI: Dec. Iunius Palladius Invictus
*EmCF: Em. Curia Finnica
*EqIL: Equestria Iunia Laeca
*KFBM: K. Fabius Buteo Modianus
*LCSF: L. Cornelius Sulla Felix
*MAM: M. Arminius Maior
*MCC: M. Curiatius Complutensis
*MHM: M. Hortensia Maior
*MIP: M. Iulius Perusianus
*MIS: M. Iulius Severus
*MLA: M. Lucretius Agricola
*MMPH: M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus
*PMA: P. Memmius Albucius
*QFM: Q. Fabius Maximus
*QSP: Q. Suetonius Paulinus
*TiGP.: Ti. Galerius Paulinus
*TIS: T. Iulius Sabinus

The following Senator (I) voted by proxy:
*MMA: M. Minucius Audens (Proxy vote delivered by Dec. Iunius Palladius Invictus)


The following Senatores (VI) did not vote:

*ArnMA: Arn. Moravia Aurelia
*CMM: C. Marius Merullus
*CnIC: Cn. Iulius Caesar
*FlGA: Fl. Galerius Aurelianus
*FrAC: Fr. Apulus Caesar
_________________________________________

"VTI ROGAS" indicates a vote in favor of an item,
"ANTIQVO" is a vote against,
"ABSTINEO" is an open abstention.
__________________________________________

ITEM I
Appointment of Governors
Full list of candidates was prepared by Consul Quintilianus and corrected by consul Albucius.
Present Governors who haven't sent any report that we have been able to find are not prolonged at this meeting, but may be prolonged at the next Senate meeting if they send in a report in time.

All decisions was made with a majority of Uti Rogas votes.

MLA: Seeing that we are not now voting for full year terms, I think that we may
be bold and take a "Let's try and see" attitude. I agree that where no report is
on file there should be no candidate. If someone has walked away or cannot find
any time at all, as sometimes happens even to the most dedicated, let the office
fall vacant and perhaps someone will step forward. Where there is a single "new"
candidate, let's support them and see what they can do. I cast my vote as "UTI
ROGAS" with the following exception and give my thanks to all candidates:

I. America Austroccidentalis - new candidate for Legatus pro praetor Q.Caecilius Metellus Pius Postumianus

MMPH: ANTIQUO He was governor of Lacus Magni and did nothing. He has never been
reliable, due to serious problems that make me question his abilities for this
office.

KFBM: Antiquo. When I was governor of Lacus Magni Metellus was a legate. He moved and never mentioned his departure from the province. Then he lived in Tennessee. Then he moved back to Ohio and became governor. Now he has vacated Lacus Magni, and his post as governor, and is now out West and wants to be the governor there. He lacks the maturity and stability to be a successful governor.

ATS: Antiquo. I share the concerns mentioned by others, and am appalled by comments he made regarding another member of this body.

PMA: I am not convinced that the conditions of Caecilius' move may place him in the best environment to develop America austroccidentalis' citizenry. However, and taking in consideration that the current group of appointments will be reviewed at the end of summer, I am willing to support my colleague's proposal and let Caecilius prove before September all his good dispositions.

UTI ROGAS: 21
ANTIQUO: 3
ABSTINEO: 1

APPOINTED: America Austroccidentalis Legatus pro praetore Q.Caecilius Metellus Pius Postumianus

***************

II. America Austrorientalis - as new Legatus pro praetore C. Aquillius Rota

PMA: Rota has already showed his real interest, putting forward interesting proposals. He has my warm support.

UTI ROGAS: 25
ANTIQUO: 0
ABSTINEO: 0

APPOINTED: America Austrorientalis Legatus pro praetore C. Aquillius Rota

********************

III America Boreoccidentalis - as new Legata pro praetore V. Rutilia Enodiaria

UTI ROGAS: 23
ANTIQUO: 1
ABSTINEO: 1

APPOINTED: America Boreoccidentalis - as new Legata pro praetore V. Rutilia Enodiaria

***********

IV America Medioccidentalis Superior - Legatus pro praetore C. Pompeius Marcellus

LCSF – No, he never paid the tax. How can a non-tax payer hold an imperium based position.

UTI ROGAS: 24
ANTIQUO: 1
ABSTINEO: 0

APPOINTED: America Medioccidentalis Superior Legatus pro praetore C. Pompeius Marcellus

***************

V Argentina - No candidate - (Legatus pro praetore D. Cassius Lupus, no report).

MMPH: Last December I received a note from Julia Agrippa in which she stated,
"My husband has decided to stop his involvement with Nova Roma, as he has felt
quite put off by some <snipped> Citizens and their antics." Also she reported
that there was a lack of participation by other Argentina citizens, not only
because of the antics on the lists, but also because of difficulties in paying
annual taxes. Finances in Argentina do not make it convenient to have a credit
cards and other banking facilities available to them, and they are thus unable
to use PayPal. They requested that they be allowed to send their taxes via
Western Union but when I inquired on their behalf, we received no answer.

ATS: I am sorry to learn that this gentleman no longer wishes to participate in NR; his wife was in one of my introductory Latin classes last year, and is auditing the corresponding intermediate level one this year in hopes of returning to student status next year.

*****************

VI Asia Citerior - vacant

***************

VII Asia Ulterior - Legatus pro praetore M. Lucretius Agricola

UTI ROGAS: 24
ANTIQUO: 1
ABSTINEO: 0

APPOINTED: Asia Ulterior Legatus pro praetore M. Lucretius Agricola

*******************

VIII Australia - vacant

***************

IX Brasilia - No candidate - (Legatus pro praetore T. Arminius Genialis, no report).

MAM: I am sorry that T. Arminius missed the deadline for the report, and
certainly will vote for him in the next session.

ATS: I am also concerned about this gentleman's absence.

********

X Britannia - vacant

*******************

XI California - two candidates:

MLA: There have been allegations of sexually inappropriate behavior on the part
of Q. Fabius Maximus, but little evidence was brought forward. Just now, I have
found some circumstantial evidence that tends to support the allegations. The
Sodalitas Munerum was organized and recognized in 2001. A Yahoo Group was
created for this sodalitas by Q. Fabius Maximus using the ID "sfp1959". The
profile for that ID was archived in 2002 and can be found at
http://web.archive.org/web/20021023195250/http://profiles.yahoo.com/sfp1959 .
There is says in part "Hobbies: Interested in photography, media, music and
dramatic sex. Latest News: Just joined One Miracle Films to produce a series
about G/G". This is remarkably similar to some of the behaviors that have been
alleged. More than this, though, is the question of Q. Fabius Maximus' ability
to lead and organize a group. This same Yahoo group tells a sad tale in this
regard. A number of citizens joined the group in its first months, posting 60
messages in the first month and 23 messages in the second. Since that time, the
group has been allowed to languish and for nearly ten years it has done nothing
but collect spam messages. Maximus is still the sole owner of this group. I do
not mean to diminish any other contributions he has made, but all this suggests
to me that it best to select another person for California provincia.

MMPH: 11/2. Maxima Valeria Messallina (new) ASSENTIOR UTI ROGAS. It is about time that California receive a decent governor who will work with people and try to undo the damage that Fabius Maximus has caused over the years. Messallina will do a fine job.

TGP:
11/1. Q. Fabius Maximus TGP VTI ROGAS
11/2. Maxima Valeria Messallina (new) TGP abstain
Before we replace a Proconsul, a perspective Governor should spend some time working for the current governor. If Maxima Valeria Messallina has held a meeting with 17 people then California should have 17 new citizens but it does not. As a Vestal she also has to agree that if she is going to serve in political offices than she must be willing to take criticism as well as praise.
I believe she should be a senator and tried to bring it about last year. I also believe that most of our provinces are to large and should be reduced in size and CA is one of them. Our provinces should be the size of cities and not states or provinces.
LCSF: 11/1. Q. Fabius Maximus YES!!! Q. Fabius Maximus has served the provincia for years. Also, I have an issue regarding the candidacy of the Vestal for any political position. If she wants to serve politics she should resign her position as vestal. Instead she chooses to taint the Vestal position. So be it. I do find it ironic that Modianus used as justification that, "There is nothing in the constitution that prohibits her from running." If that is going to be our baseline to determine what is legal and what is not. He just flat out admitted that since we have no law preventing the creation of fake citizens therefore it's legal. Could it be that we already have sockpuppet citizens?
ATS: 11/2. Maxima Valeria Messallina (new)
Uti rogas. The arguments raised against her candidacy seem to be based more on politics than on anything more substantive.

QFM: XI California
Uti rogas for Q. Fabius Maximus
Abstain for Maxima Valeria Messalina
I believe that Valeria would make a fine governor. Just not as being Vesta's Handmaiden as well. I have read all the arguments that allow and disallow a Vestal to hold political offices. There is merit to all. I remain unconvinced. Therefore, I must vote my conscience. If Valeria wishes to step down from her circular temple to become governor, that would IMO be best.

PMA: I will follow gov. Maximus' appreciation on Messallina and consider that she may be given the opportunity to add a new chord to her commitment during this six months period. The Vestal status question shall need to be discussed separately, quietly and objectively, in another time this year.

A. present Proconsul Q. Fabius Maximus

UTI ROGAS: 9
ANTIQUO: 8
ABSTINEO: 0

B. Maxima Valeria Messallina, Sacerdos Vestalis

UTI ROGAS: 16
ANTIQUO: 1
ABSTINEO: 4

Maxima Valeria Messallina is appointed Legata pro praetore with 16 votes against 9 votes for Q. Fabius Maximus

APPOINTED: California Legata pro praetore Maxima Valeria Messallina

************

XII Canada Citerior - Legatus pro praetore T. Annaeus Regulus

UTI ROGAS: 25
ANTIQUO: 0
ABSTINEO: 0

APPOINTED: Canada Citerior Legatus pro praetore T. Annaeus Regulus

***********

XIII Canada Ulterior - Legatus pro praetore Cn. Iulius Caesar

UTI ROGAS: 24
ANTIQUO: 0
ABSTINEO: 1

APPOINTED: Canada Ulterior Legatus pro praetore Cn. Iulius Caesar

*****************

XIV Dacia - Proconsul T. Iulius Sabinus

UTI ROGAS: 25
ANTIQUO: 0
ABSTINEO: 0

APPOINTED: Dacia Proconsul T. Iulius Sabinus

****************

XV Gallia - Consul P. Memmius Albucius

PMA: ABS, being myself concerned.

UTI ROGAS: 24
ANTIQUO: 0
ABSTINEO: 1

APPOINTED: Gallia Consul P. Memmius Albucius

***********

XVI Germania - Legatus pro praetore T. Flavius Aquila

UTI ROGAS: 25
ANTIQUO: 0
ABSTINEO: 0

APPOINTED: Germania Legatus pro praetore T. Flavius Aquila

*****************

XVII Hibernia – vacant

MAM: No vote. I suggest a merging between Britannia and Hibernia.

******************

XVIII Hispania - Proconsul M. Curiatius Complutensis

LCSF – Absolutely not. This individual was accused of sockpuppetry last year. There are enough ethical questions that should prevent this individual from ever holding office again.
CEC: Abstineo - with the issue of the
fake citizen (the "sock puppet") still unresolved and not investigated, I do not
believe that this appointment is appropriate.

UTI ROGAS: 22
ANTIQUO: 1
ABSTINEO: 2

APPOINTED: Hispania Proconsul M. Curiatius Complutensis

**********

XIX Italia - as new Praefectus Italiae Publius Anneus Constantinus
Placidus

PMA: Placidus, proposed by the Curia Italica, is Italia's best choice in a difficult environment. I expect that he be ready and able to gather *all* the Italian forces, be a strong and available representative of the Republic in the peninsula, and keep the bridges open between NR and the friends-associations. He has my support.

UTI ROGAS: 25
ANTIQUO: 0
ABSTINEO: 0

APPOINTED: Praefectus Italiae Publius Anneus Constantinus Placidus

***************

XX Lacus Magni - Legatus pro praetore vacant

************

XXI Mediatlantica - Proconsul Ti. Galerius Paulinus

UTI ROGAS: 23
ANTIQUO: 0
ABSTINEO: 0

APPOINTED: Mediatlantica Proconsul Ti. Galerius Paulinus

*********

XXII Mexico - Proconsul M. Iulius Severus

LCSF – NO – Instead of serving Nova Roma he served his colleague and contributed to the ethical decline of Nova Roma last year.

UTI ROGAS: 23
ANTIQUO: 1
ABSTINEO: 1

APPOINTED: Mexico Proconsul M. Iulius Severus

***********

XXIII Nova Britannia – Proconsul M. Minucius Audens

UTI ROGAS: 25
ANTIQUO: 0
ABSTINEO: 0

APPOINTED: Nova Britannia Proconsul M. Minucius Audens

*************

XXIV Pannonia - Legatus pro praetore Cn. Cornelius Lentulus

ATS: XXIV. Pannonia - Cn. Cornelius Lentulus
Uti rogas. Lentulus is a fine and hard-working young man who has done well in everything.


UTI ROGAS: 25
ANTIQUO: 0
ABSTINEO: 0

APPOINTED: Pannonia Legatus pro praetore Cn. Cornelius Lentulus

**********

XXV Sarmatia - as new Legatus pro praetore C. Antonius Costa

ATS: XXV. Sarmatia - C. Antonius Costa (new)
I know little about this candidate, but will vote to confirm him. Uti rogas.

PMA: Costa has shown his true interest and the strong link he keeps with the former governor, M. Octavius Corvus, who I sincerely thank for his dedication. Corvus will remain in the Sarmatican scene, focusing on religious matters.

UTI ROGAS: 25
ANTIQUO: 0
ABSTINEO: 0

APPOINTED: Sarmatia Legatus pro praetore C. Antonius Costa

*************

XXVI Thule - Legatus pro praetore C. Curius Saturninus

LCSF – NO – This person should not hold any office in Nova Roma. As a matter of fact he should be terminated from the CIO position given his actions regarding the overstep of his bounds with Censor Paulinus last year and the election fraud/fixing brought to light by the former citizen Regulus.
CEC: Abstineo - questions raised about his
handling of certain matters with the office of the censors, as well as
allegations of serious election fraud, make me wary of this appointment.

UTI ROGAS: 22
ANTIQUO: 1
ABSTINEO: 2

APPOINTED: Thule - Legatus pro praetore C. Curius Saturninus

*****************

XXVII Venedia - vacant

*************
__________________________________________

ITEM II
Decision that from now on each advise in the Senate will be published
as a separate Senatus Consultum to make it easier to look for previous
advises. Further from now on a project to organize old advises as
separate Senateus Consultum will bew set by the Consuls. All our SC
should in the end be searchable.

MMPH: For Item II, I shall await the Consul's direction to vote on the next item.

PMA: UR, though on the principle such tool still exists, for the work has already been open by sen. M. Arminius, carried on by Censorius Ti. Galerius and, recently, by myself. Now we need attentive good wills to work upon the hundreds of approved and failed SC!

Uti rogas: 24
Antiquo: 0
Abstineo: 1
The result of the voting is Item I PASSED
Senator M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus has not voted on Item II and I counted his vote as ABSTINEO.

_____________________________________________

Tribuni:

M. Octavius Corvus (reporting)
Maxima Valeria Messallina
C. Curius Saturnius
C. Petronius Dexter
C. Aquilius Rota

I thank Consul Quintilianus for help in my work. Special thanks for my colleague Maxima Valeria Messallina for advise and help while preparing my first report.

Valete bene in pace Deorum,

M. Octavius Corvus
Tribunus Plebis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74524 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2010-03-16
Subject: Re: Certamen Latinum, final results
> A. Tullia Scholastica C. Mariae Caecae quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque
> bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
>
>
>
>
> C. Maria Caeca omnibus S. P. D.
>
> I have the great pleasure to congratulate and thank all who participated in
> the Certamen Latinum. You are all great sports, and there were enough of
> you to be impressive. Lingua Latina pulchra is far from dead (just in case
> anyone was wondering, grin).
>
> ATS: Vivit, et vivat in aeternum!
>
> the winner of level 1, the beginners quiz was Aula Decia Scriptrix ...a
> student, currently in Gramatica I! congratulations, Scriptrix! Watch out,
> esteemed Latinists, Scriptrix will, I suspect, be giving you some brisk
> competition next year!
>
> ATS: Tibi gratulor, Scriptrix! It is always heartening to see one¹s
> students enter such competitions...especially if they win! :-)))
>
> The winner of the advanced level is: (drum roll and trumpets, please), A.
> Tullia Scholastica.
>
> ATS: Why, thank you! Plurimas gratias! Some of that advanced level
> material was well above Level II...more like Level XII.
>
> And, lest our think she had an unfair advantage,
>
> ATS: Who, me? Advantage? We have many fine Latinists here. Many are in
> the gens Tullia, for whatever reason... ;-)
>
>
> treading right on her hem (so to speak) and within 2 points of winning were
> M. Martianus Lupus and our own Curule Aedile, Placidus.
>
> ATS: Well, well, well! Another of my students! Lupus has completed both
> Grammatica classes successfully, and started Sermo before having to drop out.
> Tibi gratulor, Lupe! Placidus is also a good Latinist...after all, his
> language is derived from Latin, and word has it that Latin is required in the
> better schools in Italy...as it used to be in the U.S. It is gratifying to
> see our magistrates in particular demonstrate competency in Latin.
>
>
> Until the last 2
> questions, I was concerned that I would have to beg Lentulus to com up with
> a tie breaker question!
>
> ATS: Oh? After the last one, I thought that you might have us write a
> summary of the first six books of Tacitus...in Latin.
>
>
> thank you all, again, for participating, and for your patience with me.
>
> ATS: It is wonderful to see our citizens (and any others) participating
> in these more intellectual ludi as well as in the circenses. The parodies
> were a lark...
>
>
> Oh
> ...and since the advanced question for $6 never quite saw the light of
> print, I gave everyone credit for it.
>
> ATS: That must have been the Tacitus question...or was it the one to
> write a sequel to the Aeneid?
>
> respectfully,
> C. Maria Caeca
>
> P.S. I would like to especially acknowledge Julia Aquila who did extremely
> well in level 1, and L. Livia Plauta, who did extremely well in level 2.
>
> ATS: More discipulae! Optimé! Macte virtúte!
>
> Vale, et valete.
>
>
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74525 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-03-16
Subject: a. d. XVII Kalendas Apriles: Saculla Argeiorum
M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus Quiritibus, cultoribus Deorum et omnibus salute plurimam dicit: Di vos servent cum vester.

Hodie est ante diem XVII Kalendas Apriles; haec dies nefastus est: Nepa occidit, hiemat

"If I remember rightly, on this, and the preceding day, crowds go to the Argei." ~ P. Ovius Naso, Fasti 3. 791

That is, on 16 March and then on 17 March while the rest of the City celebrates Liberalia, a procession was conducted throughout the four oldest quarters of the City to the twenty-seven saculla Argeiorum. We are told that "many other sacrifices appointed by [Numa Pompilius] and places dedicated for their performance which the pontiffs call the Argei (T. Livius 1.21.5)." The participants in the procession and rites included the Praetor Urbanus, the Pontifices and Vestales Virgines, and at least the Flamines maiores if not all of the flamines. The flamines were accompanied by their wives, the flaminicae. Something of the nature of this procession is told to us by the strictures placed on the Flaminica Dialis:

"Also, when [the flaminica Dialis] goes to the Argei, that she neither combs her head nor dresses her hair." ~ Aulus Gellius, Noctes Atticae 10.15.30

Generally the Flaminica Dialis had to wear her hair up in a conical shape atop her head. Uncombed, and not dressed, would indicate that she went in procession as though in mourning. Two months later, on the Ides of May, another procession saw the Vestales Virgineswithdrew twenty-four puppets, one from each sacullum Argea, which were then carried to the Pons Sublicius and tossed into the River Tiber. But in March the procession would seem to have been a lustratio of sorts, and like the rites of the Salii, moving from station to station within the City instead of around the limits of the City. Referring to the rites of the Argei in May, Plutarch called it the "most important ceremony of purification (Rom. Ques. 86)." An explanation for the ritual held in May comes from Greek sources like Plutarch, and this one by Dionysius of Halicarnassus.

"It is said also that the ancients sacrificed human victims to Saturn, as was done at Carthage while that city stood and as is there is done to this day among the Gauls and certain other western nations, and that Hercules, desiring to abolish the custom of this sacrifice, erected the altar upon the Saturnian hill and performed the initial rites of sacrifice with unblemished victims burning on a pure fire. And lest the people should feel any scruple at having neglected their traditional sacrifices, he taught them to appease the anger of the god by making effigies resembling the men they had been wont to bind hand and foot and throw into the stream of the Tiber, and dressing these in the same manner, to throw them into the river instead of the men, his purpose being that any superstitious dread remaining in the minds of all might be removed, since the semblance of the ancient rite would still be preserved. This the Romans continued to do every year even down to my day a little after the vernal equinox, in the month of May, on what they call the Ides (the day they mean to be the middle of the month); on this day, after offering the preliminary sacrifices according to the laws, the pontifices, as the most important of the priests are called, and with them the virgins who guard the perpetual fire, the praetors, and such of the other citizens as may lawfully be present at the rites, throw from the sacred bridge into the stream of the Tiber thirty effigies made in the likeness of men, which they call Argei." ~ Dionysius of Halicarnassus 1.38.2-3

In spite of the stories, the rites for the Argei seem to have been introduced during the period between the First and Second Punic Wars; that is, in the Mid-Third century. The number of saculla Argeiorum is recorded as twenty-four in Varro, where he gives us the location of fourteen of the saculla, as twenty-seven by Festus (15.334), and as thirty by Dionysius. The list by Varro is the most important because it seems to have derived from the official list used by the Pontifices and also gives the sequence followed by the procession. (See Lingua Latina 5.45-54, or search for Argeorum Sacraria at Lacus Curtius)

The procession held on 16-17 March is thought to have placed the puppets into their "tombs" at the saculla, later to be withdrawn in May. This may explain the mourning dress of the Flaminica Dialis. Moving as it did within the City indicates that this was a ritual purification by expulsion. The discarding of the corn puppets into the River Tiber in May is another indication of this. Today is dies ater, and nefas, and it is also religiosum due to this ritual funeral of burying by-gone ills.


AUC 760 / 37 CE: The Death of Emperor Tiberius.


Our thought for today is from L. Annaeus Seneca, Epistula ad Lucillium 108:

"Absorb not all that you wish, but all that you can hold. Only be of a sound mind, and then you will be able to hold all that you wish. For the more the mind receives, the more does it expand."
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74526 From: publiusalbucius Date: 2010-03-16
Subject: Re: LUDI NOVI ROMANI 2763 AUC: OFFICIAL ÆDILICIAN CLOSING STATEMENT
Aedili Constantino s.d.

I think that I express the opinion of all our cives: these first Ludi in 2763 were a success.

We are all looking forward for the Megalesia and the Plebeian Ceriales next month!

Thanks again to you and all your efficient assistants.


Vale Aedilis,



P. Memmius Albucius
consul



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Ugo Coppola <ugo.coppola@...> wrote:
>
> Ædilis Curulis Publius Annæus Constantinus Placidus omnibus civibus,
> peregrinisque bonæ voluntatis salutem plurimam dicit.
>
> Hereby, I do declare the MMDCCLXIII edition of the Ludi Novi Romani
> officially *CLOSED*.
>
> On behalf of the Ædilitas of Nova Roma, I would like to thank all of the
> participants, entrants and competitors in the Chariot Race and in the
> Third Edition of "Ipse Dixit", also inviting them to join me during the
> next and upcoming Ludi events. I would also like to express my deepest,
> sincerest and heartfelt gratitude to the whole of the Cohors Ædilicia,
> and in particular to my scribæ, Gnæus Cornelius Lentulus, Lucia Iulia
> Aquila and Gaia Maria Cæca for all of their hard work and dedication.
> These Ludi were very much the result of a team effort, and they could
> have never have turned out as excellently as they did without the
> invaluable cooperation of the entire Cohors, so thanks very much to all
> of its members.
>
> Optime valete omnes,
> P. Ann. Con. Placidus
> Ædilis Curulis Novæ Romæ
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74527 From: mcorvvs Date: 2010-03-16
Subject: Re: Ides ritual performed by Sacerdos Iovis M.Octavius Corvus
Salvete collega,

At Id. Mar. I, M.Octavius Corvus, Sacerdos Iovis, on behalf of People of Nova Roma, performed Ides ritual for IOM, using the pattern sent to me by PM M.Moravius Piscinus Horatianus.
Rite was performed at the altar of Iuppiter. I began the rite at the dawn. Sacrifice was: incense, libum, wine. My middle son, T. Octavius assisted me.
Right after the ritual I saw four ravens flying from left to right. One and then three together. I consider it clearly as the bad omen and ask Pontific Maximus to find the way to avoid problems in nearest future.

Optime valete,

CORVVS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74528 From: James Mathews Date: 2010-03-16
Subject: Models
Senator Maior

In relation to the models that we discussed earlier, I sent you the
information and four views of a model Roman hand-crane that I had
built. I hope you got the information. If you did, is that the way
that a model entry would be presented in the Ludi Games. Obviously,
the games are now over and I probably sent the information too late to
be included in the competition. This happened more than once due to
my being absent from home. However, your insight into his question
would be very valuable.

I am also aware that each year the games change their venue in keeping
with those Magistrates who are responsible for the games. However, I
entertain the idea, that just as you were kind enough to include
models in your list of competitive items, other magistrates might be
willing to do so as well.

My thanks for your kind consideration of this message and the material
previously discussed.

Respectfully;

Marcus Audens



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74529 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2010-03-16
Subject: Re: NR Parody Writing Contest - SECOND BEST PARODY by C. Petronius D
Livia Petronio sal.

I think the consuls are still organizing it. There should be a meeting in
Rome in June. At least I hope it will really take place.

Optime vale,
Livia

----- Original Message -----
From: "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@...>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 6:01 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: NR Parody Writing Contest - SECOND BEST PARODY by
C. Petronius Dexter


C. Petronius Liviae Plautae s.p.d.,

> I won't be there for Parilia. I will keep my energies and money for the NR
> meeting in June.

I certainly missed something, when in June and where in earth will be the NR
meeting?

Optime vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
Idibus Martiis P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74530 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-03-16
Subject: Re: Models
Salve Senator Audens;
I just wrote you privately. The praetors throw the Ludi Apollinares, which take place in the summer. They are dedicated to Apollo and Laeca and I hope they match the fabulous ones that just took place, my congratulations to the curule aedile Placidus and his entire cohors for such wonderful ludi!
Surely they have pleased the gods
M. Hortensia Maior

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, James Mathews <JLMTopog@...> wrote:
>
> Senator Maior
>
> In relation to the models that we discussed earlier, I sent you the
> information and four views of a model Roman hand-crane that I had
> built. I hope you got the information. If you did, is that the way
> that a model entry would be presented in the Ludi Games. Obviously,
> the games are now over and I probably sent the information too late to
> be included in the competition. This happened more than once due to
> my being absent from home. However, your insight into his question
> would be very valuable.
>
> I am also aware that each year the games change their venue in keeping
> with those Magistrates who are responsible for the games. However, I
> entertain the idea, that just as you were kind enough to include
> models in your list of competitive items, other magistrates might be
> willing to do so as well.
>
> My thanks for your kind consideration of this message and the material
> previously discussed.
>
> Respectfully;
>
> Marcus Audens
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74531 From: publiusalbucius Date: 2010-03-16
Subject: Call for candidacy for AEDILIS CURULIS
Quiritibus s.d.

As you all know, our aedilis curulis maior and friend T. Flavius Aquila has considered that he could not carry on his duties for the Republic nor staying among us.

Though Aquila's resignation is a real loss for our community, the life of Rome goes on, and we need filling in the office of aedilis curulis, beside aedilis cur. Constantinus.

Every interested citizen fulfilling the legal requirements shall present her/his candidacy writing to me at my private address, before next March 20th.

Thanks for your attention, Quirites, et valete omnes.


P. Memmius Albucius
consul
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74532 From: Lupus Date: 2010-03-17
Subject: Re: Certamen Latinum, final results
M. Martiánius Lupus C. Mariae Caecae et A. Tulliae Scholasticae S.P.D.

Vóbís gratulor, Scriptrix et Magistra Scholastica! It's a pleasure to congratulate the winners of this year's Certamen Latinum. It was a most enjoyable contest.

Grátiás tibi, Magistra Scholastica, for your kind words. I was hoping to pull ahead by the last day. But alas! I see that I need to work on my Latin a bit more before I'm able to overtake you.

C. Maria Caeca, plúrimás grátiás! for this very enjoyable competition.

Optimé valé.



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Tullia Scholastica" <fororom@...> wrote:
>
> > A. Tullia Scholastica C. Mariae Caecae quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque
> > bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
> >
> > C. Maria Caeca omnibus S. P. D.
> >
> > I have the great pleasure to congratulate and thank all who participated in
> > the Certamen Latinum. You are all great sports, and there were enough of
> > you to be impressive. Lingua Latina pulchra is far from dead (just in case
> > anyone was wondering, grin).
> >
> > ATS: Vivit, et vivat in aeternum!
> >
> > the winner of level 1, the beginners quiz was Aula Decia Scriptrix ...a
> > student, currently in Gramatica I! congratulations, Scriptrix! Watch out,
> > esteemed Latinists, Scriptrix will, I suspect, be giving you some brisk
> > competition next year!
> >
> > ATS: Tibi gratulor, Scriptrix! It is always heartening to see one¹s
> > students enter such competitions...especially if they win! :-)))
> >
> > The winner of the advanced level is: (drum roll and trumpets, please), A.
> > Tullia Scholastica.
> >
> > ATS: Why, thank you! Plurimas gratias! Some of that advanced level
> > material was well above Level II...more like Level XII.
> >
> > And, lest our think she had an unfair advantage,
> >
> > ATS: Who, me? Advantage? We have many fine Latinists here. Many are in
> > the gens Tullia, for whatever reason... ;-)
> >
> > treading right on her hem (so to speak) and within 2 points of winning were
> > M. Martianus Lupus and our own Curule Aedile, Placidus.
> >
> > ATS: Well, well, well! Another of my students! Lupus has completed both
> > Grammatica classes successfully, and started Sermo before having to drop out.
> > Tibi gratulor, Lupe! Placidus is also a good Latinist...after all, his
> > language is derived from Latin, and word has it that Latin is required in the
> > better schools in Italy...as it used to be in the U.S. It is gratifying to
> > see our magistrates in particular demonstrate competency in Latin.
> >
> > Until the last 2
> > questions, I was concerned that I would have to beg Lentulus to com up with
> > a tie breaker question!
> >
> > ATS: Oh? After the last one, I thought that you might have us write a
> > summary of the first six books of Tacitus...in Latin.
> >
> >
> > thank you all, again, for participating, and for your patience with me.
> >
> > ATS: It is wonderful to see our citizens (and any others) participating
> > in these more intellectual ludi as well as in the circenses. The parodies
> > were a lark...
> >
> > Oh
> > ...and since the advanced question for $6 never quite saw the light of
> > print, I gave everyone credit for it.
> >
> > ATS: That must have been the Tacitus question...or was it the one to
> > write a sequel to the Aeneid?
> >
> > respectfully,
> > C. Maria Caeca
> >
> > P.S. I would like to especially acknowledge Julia Aquila who did extremely
> > well in level 1, and L. Livia Plauta, who did extremely well in level 2.
> >
> > ATS: More discipulae! Optimé! Macte virtúte!
> >
> > Vale, et valete.
> >
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74533 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2010-03-17
Subject: Re: Certamen Latinum, final results
>
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica M. Martiánió Lupó C. Mariae Caecae quiritibus, sociis,
> peregrinisque bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
>
>
> M. Martiánius Lupus C. Mariae Caecae et A. Tulliae Scholasticae S.P.D.
>
> Vóbís gratulor, Scriptrix et Magistra Scholastica! It's a pleasure to
> congratulate the winners of this year's Certamen Latinum. It was a most
> enjoyable contest.
>
> ATS: Plurimas gratias! Et tibi gratulor! Indeed, it was quite
> enjoyable, as were all of the certamina and ludi on this occasion. I wish I
> could have entered the Ipse Dixit one, too, but just could not this time
> around.
>
> Grátiás tibi, Magistra Scholastica, for your kind words. I was hoping to pull
> ahead by the last day. But alas! I see that I need to work on my Latin a bit
> more before I'm able to overtake you.
>
> ATS: You¹re quite welcome. It¹s good to see my students entering such
> competitions...and doing well! At first I didn¹t realize that we had to
> answer the Level I questions if we entered at Level II, so may have missed a
> day or two, but the last day was the killer. Composition is not easy. As for
> your abilities, young man, in order to enhance those, you may have to bite
> your tongue and reenter Sermo I; it is a wonderful course, and one which
> really helped my fluency in reading, writing, and speaking Latin, though the
> method is not one I consider best adapted to my particular learning style.
> The Combined class is over 3/4 through the program already, working on the
> third exam; Sermo II is done except for the final and my correction of their
> interminable midterm (almost done...), and Sermo I will soon be in an
> all-Latin environment. That immersion does help...and so does attending a
> Conventiculum, though I doubt they have those where you are in Hawaii. It¹s
> just such an un-Roman environment... ;-) You may have to go to Wenatchee or
> California for that.
>
> C. Maria Caeca, plúrimás grátiás! for this very enjoyable competition.
>
> ATS: And I add my thanks as well! I won¹t use the apices here as they
> distort the letters on some people¹s mail, but appreciate your devotion
> thereto.
>
> Optimé valé.
>
> Optime vale et valete.
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com> , "A.
> Tullia Scholastica" <fororom@...> wrote:
>> >
>>> > > A. Tullia Scholastica C. Mariae Caecae quiritibus, sociis,
>>> peregrinisque
>>> > > bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
>>> > >
>>> > > C. Maria Caeca omnibus S. P. D.
>>> > >
>>> > > I have the great pleasure to congratulate and thank all who participated
in
>>> > > the Certamen Latinum. You are all great sports, and there were enough
of
>>> > > you to be impressive. Lingua Latina pulchra is far from dead (just in
>>> case
>>> > > anyone was wondering, grin).
>>> > >
>>> > > ATS: Vivit, et vivat in aeternum!
>>> > >
>>> > > the winner of level 1, the beginners quiz was Aula Decia Scriptrix ...a
>>> > > student, currently in Gramatica I! congratulations, Scriptrix! Watch
>>> out,
>>> > > esteemed Latinists, Scriptrix will, I suspect, be giving you some brisk
>>> > > competition next year!
>>> > >
>>> > > ATS: Tibi gratulor, Scriptrix! It is always heartening to see >>>
one¹s
>>> > > students enter such competitions...especially if they win! :-)))
>>> > >
>>> > > The winner of the advanced level is: (drum roll and trumpets, please),
A.
>>> > > Tullia Scholastica.
>>> > >
>>> > > ATS: Why, thank you! Plurimas gratias! Some of that advanced >>>
level
>>> > > material was well above Level II...more like Level XII.
>>> > >
>>> > > And, lest our think she had an unfair advantage,
>>> > >
>>> > > ATS: Who, me? Advantage? We have many fine Latinists here. Many
>>> are in
>>> > > the gens Tullia, for whatever reason... ;-)
>>> > >
>>> > > treading right on her hem (so to speak) and within 2 points of winning
>>> were
>>> > > M. Martianus Lupus and our own Curule Aedile, Placidus.
>>> > >
>>> > > ATS: Well, well, well! Another of my students! Lupus has
>>> completed both
>>> > > Grammatica classes successfully, and started Sermo before having to drop
>>> out.
>>> > > Tibi gratulor, Lupe! Placidus is also a good Latinist...after all, his
>>> > > language is derived from Latin, and word has it that Latin is required
>>> in the
>>> > > better schools in Italy...as it used to be in the U.S. It is gratifying
to
>>> > > see our magistrates in particular demonstrate competency in Latin.
>>> > >
>>> > > Until the last 2
>>> > > questions, I was concerned that I would have to beg Lentulus to com up
>>> with
>>> > > a tie breaker question!
>>> > >
>>> > > ATS: Oh? After the last one, I thought that you might have us
>>> write a
>>> > > summary of the first six books of Tacitus...in Latin.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > thank you all, again, for participating, and for your patience with me.
>>> > >
>>> > > ATS: It is wonderful to see our citizens (and any others)
>>> participating
>>> > > in these more intellectual ludi as well as in the circenses. The
>>> parodies
>>> > > were a lark...
>>> > >
>>> > > Oh
>>> > > ...and since the advanced question for $6 never quite saw the light of
>>> > > print, I gave everyone credit for it.
>>> > >
>>> > > ATS: That must have been the Tacitus question...or was it the one
to
>>> > > write a sequel to the Aeneid?
>>> > >
>>> > > respectfully,
>>> > > C. Maria Caeca
>>> > >
>>> > > P.S. I would like to especially acknowledge Julia Aquila who did
>>> extremely
>>> > > well in level 1, and L. Livia Plauta, who did extremely well in level 2.
>>> > >
>>> > > ATS: More discipulae! Optimé! Macte virtúte!
>>> > >
>>> > > Vale, et valete.
>>> > >
>
>
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74534 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-03-17
Subject: Explorator 12.47
================================================================
explorator 12.47 March 14, 2010
================================================================
Editor's note: Most urls should be active for at least eight
hours from the time of publication.

For your computer's protection, Explorator is sent in plain text
and NEVER has attachments. Be suspicious of any Explorator which
arrives otherwise!!!
================================================================
================================================================
Thanks to Arthur Shippee, Dave Sowdon, Diana Wright,
Donna Hurst, Adrienne Mayor,Edward Rockstein,Patrick Swan,
Rick Heli,Hernan Astudillo, Doug Weller, Donna Hurst, Barnea Selavan,
Kurt Theis, Duke Jason Griffiths,John McMahon, Joseph Lauer,
Terrence Lockyer,Mike Ruggeri,Bob Heuman, Rochelle Altman,
Rick Pettigrew, and Ross W. Sargent for headses upses this week
(as always hoping I have left no one out).


Don't forget to set your clocks ahead if you're in a part of
the world that does that today ...
================================================================
AFRICA
================================================================
More on that 'lost tribe' in Zimbabwe:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8550614.stm
================================================================
ANCIENT NEAR EAST AND EGYPT
================================================================
The DNA focus seems to be shifting from Tut to Akhenaten:

http://www.artdaily.org/index.asp?int_sec=2&int_new=36792
http://sify.com/news/mummy-of-egypt-s-monotheist-pharaoh-to-return-home-news-offbeat-kdlxuicebdi.html
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2011317468_apmlegypthereticpharaoh.html?syndication=rss
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100312/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_egypt_heretic_pharaoh_5
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=10074330
http://apnews.excite.com/article/20100311/D9ECLFKO0.html

... with suggestions that the pyramids should now get this same sort of
'scientific' treatment:

http://archaeology.org/blog/?p=903

An update of sorts on the 'Avenue of the Sphinxes':

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article7060963.ece

Zahi Hawass was talking in Toronto:

http://heritage-key.com/blogs/owenjarus/they%E2%80%99ve-found-opening-egyptologists-reach-end-tunnel-seti-i-tomb

... and he's just posted on digs in the Valley of the Kings:

http://www.drhawass.com/node/450

Looks like politics vel simm. has intruded into the grand opening
of the restored synagogue in Egypt:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hfV1Vro5CdizKV0ZAJgOMhG1p55wD9EEDLT80
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3862449,00.html

A 150 000 years b.p. site in northern Iraq:

http://praguemonitor.com/2010/03/08/czech-archaeologists-find-oldest-settlement-arbil-north-iraq

Illegal construction threatens the purported tomb of Cyrus I:

http://www.cais-soas.com/news/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=117:illegal-construction-threatening-the-achaemenid-tomb-in-bushehr&catid=41

Article on the how the alphabet came from hieroglyphs:

http://www.bib-arch.org/bar/article.asp?PubID=BSBA&Volume=36&Issue=02&ArticleID=6

More on Queen Behenu:

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/4/20100312/twl-ancient-sarcophagus-of-egyptian-quee-41f21e0.html

More on the return of Imesy's sarcophagus to Egypt:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8566538.stm
http://www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNews/TechandScience/Story/STIStory_501841.html
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j6Giq4ug5d8ZCAejGhzOxzIwyYZQD9EDP2V00
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hpxW6-cNYd4T6fi3IxBhn6H1MuFA

More on the identification of Neta'im:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100308095459.htm
http://www.physorg.com/news187274588.html

More on Mazar's wall find:

http://blog.bibleplaces.com/2010/02/eilat-mazars-1980s-excavations-and.html
http://www.ritmeyer.com/2010/02/22/first-temple-period-wall-found-in-jerusalem
http://blog.bibleplaces.com/2010/03/dating-of-mazars-wall.html

Review of Weston Fields, *The Dead Sea Scrolls*:

http://www.brill.nl/downloads/Murphy-O%27Connor-review.doc

Egyptology News Blog:

http://egyptology.blogspot.com/

Egyptology Blog:

http://www.egyptologyblog.co.uk/

Dr Leen Ritmeyer's Blog:

http://blog.ritmeyer.com/

Paleojudaica:

http://paleojudaica.blogspot.com/

Persepolis Fortification Archives:

http://persepolistablets.blogspot.com/

Archaeologist at Large:

http://spaces.msn.com/members/ArchaeologyinEgypt/
================================================================
ANCIENT GREECE AND ROME (AND CLASSICS)
================================================================
I think we've mentioned this 'priestess' burial from Crete before:

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/sciencefair/post/2010/03/archaeology-priestesses-tombs-unearthed-on-crete/1

Recent finds during Thessaloniki's metro construction:

http://www.ana-mpa.gr/anaweb/user/showplain?maindoc=8517089&maindocimg=8514989&service=144

A Roman bath from Tarragona:

http://www.barcelonareporter.com/index.php?/news/comments/archaeological_find_roman_baths_unearthed_in_tarragona/0803100221am

The Starosel tomb has been dated to the 4th century b.c.:

http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=114097
http://paper.standartnews.com/en/article.php?d=2010-03-12&article=32484

Bulgarian archaeologists are fighting to save a Cybele temple:

http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=114155

Finds from Aiane:

http://www.ana-mpa.gr/anaweb/user/showplain?maindoc=8503037&maindocimg=8508389&service=144

Roman and Byzantine burials near Damascus:

http://www.english.globalarabnetwork.com/201003095122/Travel/syrian-archaeologists-roman-and-byzantine-graveyards-unearthed-near-damascus.html
http://www.sana.sy/eng/35/2010/03/09/277178.htm

Plenty of press this week for a plan to illuminate the whole
length of Hadrian's Wall:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jxbpvNFMec_UEaYB7kWrM-1bdNFQ
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gW4pRms8a0TSTpEzshXz3piz4IMw
http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/cumbria/hi/people_and_places/history/newsid_8556000/8556137.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/8565759.stm
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/travel/best_of_britain/article7038143.ece
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8558012.stm

... and here's what it looked like:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/8565759.stm?ls
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/8566649.stm (photos)
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/03/14/2845246.htm?section=justin
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1257842/Hadrians-Wall-lights-mark-1600th-anniversary-end-Roman-rule.html

Interesting Roman 'pendant' coming to auction:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/7413099/Roman-jewel-depicting-emperor-expected-to-sell-for-50000.html

How sites in Greece are being affected by the economy:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/feb/26/greece-acropolis-debt-crisis-athens
http://www.mg.co.za/article/2010-03-12-greek-heritage-crumbles

Mary Beard was talking Pompeii:

http://badgerherald.com/news/2010/03/12/lecturer_pompeii_sti.php

What Andrew Wallace-Hadrill is up to:

http://www.rockbridgeweekly.com/rw_article.php?ndx=16937

Tony Perrotet ponders Cleopatra's looks:

http://www.thesmartset.com/article/article03081001.aspx

Interview with Adrienne Mayor:

http://www.bloomberginstitute.com/apps/news?pid=20601088&sid=a4hdybOjtZgQ

Ancient Greek podcast:

http://ancientgreek.mypodcast.com/index.html

Spartacus production is delayed:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/10/arts/television/10arts-SPARTACUSISD_BRF.html

Review of Christian Cameron, *Tyrant: Funeral Games* (fiction):

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/books/review-tyrant-funeral-games-by-christian-cameron/article1496033/

Review of Mary Reed and Eric Mayer, *Eight for Eternity* (fiction
... scroll down):

http://www.publishersweekly.com/article/447752-Fiction_Book_Reviews_2_8_2010.php

Latest reviews from Scholia:

http://www.classics.ukzn.ac.za/reviews/

Latest reviews from BMCR:

http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/recent.html

Visit our blog:

http://rogueclassicism.com/
================================================================
EUROPE AND THE UK (+ Ireland)
================================================================
Remember all those headless skeletons in a mass grave at Dorset?
Turns out they're definitely Scandinavian in origin:

http://archaeology.org/blog/?p=908
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8565524.stm (video)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/dorset/8563719.stm (photos)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/dorset/8563377.stm
http://www.upi.com/Science_News/2010/03/12/Skeletons-IDd-as-beheaded-Viking-raiders/UPI-20781268441370/
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2010/03/11/decapitated-bodies-found-in-dorset-burial-pit-were-executed-vikings-115875-22104588/
http://www.physorg.com/news187605092.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/mar/12/dorset-decapitated-bodies-vikings

Underwater pipeline construction in the Baltic has revealed a
number of shipwrecks from various periods:

http://www.artdaily.org/index.asp?int_sec=2&int_new=36761
http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/0,1518,682506,00.html
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124637816&ft=1&f=1007
http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/777093--ancient-shipwrecks-found-in-baltic-sea-by-pipeline-builder
http://news.scotsman.com/world/Ancient-shipwrecks-found--intact.6137348.jp
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100308/lf_afp/swedenhistoryshippingwreckgaspipeline
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/sweden/7405326/Workers-on-Baltic-Sea-pipeline-discover-1000-year-old-wrecks.html

Evidence for a famine in Greenland 1000 years b.p.:

http://news.discovery.com/archaeology/norse-vikings-iceland-greenland.html
http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/57056/title/Ancient_Norse_colonies_hit_bad_climate_times

Pondering the Jacobite march from Culloden to Nairn:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/highlands_and_islands/8559535.stm

Nice overviewish-opeddish thing on the Staffordshire Hoard:

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/visual_arts/article7058091.ece

cf: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8565935.stm

Latest artifact from the Mary Rose is interesting:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/hampshire/8564209.stm

Latest Lewis Chessmen news:

http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/1639532
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/highlands_and_islands/8559305.stm
http://news.scotsman.com/inverness/Lewis-chessmen-must-stay-in.6141066.jp

Archaeology in Europe Blog:

http://www.archaeology.eu.com/weblog/index.html
================================================================
ASIA AND THE SOUTH PACIFIC
================================================================
A 40 000 years b.p. aboriginal meeting ground:

http://news.discovery.com/archaeology/australia-aborigines-tribe.html
http://www.physorg.com/news187445314.html
http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/1834945/archaeologists_discover_ancient_aboriginal_meeting_ground/index.html?source=r_science
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/03/10/2841317.htm

Brief item on the 'father of the Great Wall':

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/photo/2010-03/11/content_9572937.htm
http://www.china.org.cn/china/2010-03/09/content_19566968.htm

Qin Shihuang's tomb has a north gate:

http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90782/90873/6912245.html

Feature on Zheng He:

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1969939,00.html?xid=rss-fullworld-yahoo

A number of very vague reports this week about Muziris and the
'Rome connection' this week:

http://www.thehindu.com/2010/03/14/stories/2010031464022200.htm
http://sify.com/news/researcher-reveals-kerala-s-possible-mediterranean-link-news-international-kdknOeiijhi.html

Somewhat confusing item about bronze and iron age paintings at
Buddhist sites in Pakistan:

http://www.gulf-times.com/site/topics/article.asp?cu_no=2&item_no=347433&version=1&template_id=41&parent_id=23

A Chola period temple from Jaffna:

http://sify.com/news/ancient-chola-period-temple-unearthed-in-north-jaffna-news-international-kdknOfcafbb.html
http://www.dailynews.lk/2010/03/09/news12.asp
Southeast Asian Archaeology Newsblog:

http://www.southeastasianarchaeology.com/

New Zealand Archaeology eNews:

http://www.nzarchaeology.org/netsubnews.htm
================================================================
NORTH AMERICA
================================================================
Archaeologists want to check out Cavanaugh Mound a bit more
closely:

http://www.thecitywire.com/index.php?q=node/8934

Arguing about the Oxford stones:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/14/us/14oxford.html

Humans are off the hook for musk ox decline 12 000 years b.p.:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100308171152.htm

Interesting ideas about Salado pottery:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100310101726.htm
http://www.archaeology.org/1003/abstracts/womensw.html

Latest video at the Archaeology Channel is about 'Finding Clovis':

http://www.archaeologychannel.org/

... and some Clovis points have been found in Alaska:

http://qmackie.wordpress.com/2010/03/06/fluted-points-from-the-bering-land-bridge/

Arguing about a street name in New Jersey:

https://mail.google.com/mail/#label/4explorator/12747fce5ba776ef

They've preserved FDR's dorm room at Harvard:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/12/arts/design/12antiques.html

Some Bowery history:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/14/nyregion/14bowery.html

Review of Anthony Brandt, *The Man Who Ate His Boots*:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/14/books/review/Wheeler-t.html

Review of Max Watman, *Chasing the White Dog*:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/07/books/review/Sussman-t.html
================================================================
CENTRAL AND SOUTH AMERICA
================================================================
Evidence of double-burial for quite a long period prior to
the arrival of Europeans in the Baja region:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/03/100309-double-burials-mexico-graves/
http://sify.com/news/double-burial-was-practiced-for-4-500-years-in-ancient-mexico-news-international-kdlp4ggebhg.html

Primitive tools from Cuba:

http://www.cubaheadlines.com/2010/03/09/20522/primitive_agricultural_tools_found_villa_clara.html

Pondering El Porvenir (Venezuela) while we still can:

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/venezuela/100301/el-porvenir-archaeology-indigenous

Remains of a headless man in the Temple of the Murals at
Bonampak:

http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2010/03/12/dead-sea-scrolls-minnesota/?refid=0
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/03/100312-headless-bonampak-tomb-maya-torture-mural/

They've finished restoration on a number of murals at Tetitla Palace:

http://www.artdaily.org/index.asp?int_sec=2&int_new=36796

A Mayan weapons/tools manufacturing site:

http://www.artdaily.org/index.asp?int_sec=2&int_new=36818
http://dti.inah.gob.mx/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogsection&id=39&Itemid=150

I think we've had a version of this Maya plumbing story before:

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/sciencefair/post/2010/03/maya-pyramid-plumbing-unearthed-by-archaeologists/1

... and the murals at Calakmul:

http://www.livescience.com/history/ancient-mayan-murals-100306.html

Nazca Civilization was a victim of deforestation, apparently:

http://www.naturalnews.com/028358_deforestation_human_civilization.html

Machu Picchu will be reopening soon:

http://www.skynews.com.au/eco/article.aspx?id=439433
http://www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNews/World/Story/STIStory_501674.html

Mike Ruggeri's Ancient Americas Breaking News:

http://web.mac.com/michaelruggeri

Ancient MesoAmerica News:

http://ancient-mesoamerica-news-updates.blogspot.com/
================================================================
OTHER ITEMS OF INTEREST
================================================================
Since its pi day, here's a brief history thereof:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/191389/a_brief_history_of_pi.html

A hidden Giotto in Florence:

http://www.artdaily.org/index.asp?int_sec=2&int_new=36715

Blogging the restoration of a Van Gogh:

http://www.physorg.com/news187542304.html

Good Housekeeping at 125:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/08/business/media/08adco.html

Google plans to digitize a number of old books from libraries
in Rome and Florence:

http://www.physorg.com/news187442405.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8561245.stm

... and folks might be interested to know that Google has updated
its translation services:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/09/technology/09translate.html

Glossing 'mad as a hatter':

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/07/weekinreview/07ryan.html

... and Alice in Algebraland:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/07/opinion/07bayley.html

Caravaggio has passed Michelangelo, apparently:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/10/arts/design/10abroad.html

Pondering the perennial question: who wrote Shakespeare?:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/culture/2010/mar/14/who-wrote-shakespeare-james-shapiro

Followup to that sale of the Vasari archive:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/mar/07/michelangelo-letters-auction-vasari
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8558589.stm

Soil samples and human history:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/tayside_and_central/8557448.stm

Gossip about Mel Gibson's Viking movie:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/herocomplex/2010/03/mel-gibson-says-vikings-movie-with-leonardo-dicaprio-may-be-his-last.html

Interesting series in the NYT called 'Retelling the War'
(read 'from the bottom up'):

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/tag/retelling-the-war/

Nice little gallery of underwater archaeology:

http://www.csmonitor.com/CSM-Photo-Galleries/In-Pictures/Underwater-Archaeology

More on the origin of small dogs:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100223191924.htm

Review of Stephen Hall, *Wisdom*:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/14/books/review/Holt-t.html

Review of Jonathan Phillips, *Holy Warriors*:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/14/books/review/Ormsby-t.html

Review of Elizabeth Samet, *The Untold War*:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/07/books/review/Samet-t.html

Review of assorted tomes about maps:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/07/books/review/Heller-t.html
================================================================
BLOGS AND PODCASTS
================================================================
About.com Archaeology:

http://archaeology.about.com/

Archaeology Briefs:

http://archaeologybriefs.blogspot.com/

Naked Archaeology Podcast:

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/podcasts/archaeology/

Taygete Atlantis excavations blogs aggregator:

http://planet.atlantides.org/taygete/

Time Machine:

http://heatherpringle.wordpress.com/

================================================================
CRIME BEAT
================================================================
Nigeria is working to prevent the smuggling of antiquities:

http://allafrica.com/stories/201003130006.html

Theft of a Coptic cross in Bristol:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bristol/8565013.stm

Bringin you up-to-date on the Utah case:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation-and-world/la-na-artifacts10-2010mar10,0,716408.story
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/09/us/09artifacts.html

A bust in Bulgaria:

http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=114165

Looting Matters:

http://lootingmatters.blogspot.com/
================================================================
NUMISMATICA
================================================================
Not sure we've mentioned this Roman coin hoard from Warwickshire
yet:

http://www.warwickcourier.co.uk/newsl/Warmingtons-buried-treasure-may-reveal.6145965.jp

More on that Hellenistic hoard from Syria:

http://www.coinnews.net/2010/03/08/ancient-alexander-the-great-coins-unearthed-in-syria/

Latest issue of the e-Sylum:

http://www.coinbooks.org/club_nbs_esylum_v13n10.html

Ancient Coin Collecting:

http://ancientcoincollecting.blogspot.com/

Ancient Coins:

http://classicalcoins.blogspot.com/

Coin Link:

http://www.coinlink.com/News/
================================================================
EXHIBITIONS, AUCTIONS, AND MUSEUM-RELATED
================================================================
DSS:

http://www.mndaily.com/2010/03/09/dead-sea-scrolls-come-st-paul
http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2010/03/12/dead-sea-scrolls-minnesota/?refid=0
http://www.tcdailyplanet.net/news/2010/03/11/dead-sea-scrolls-science-museum-ancient-fragments-hidden-secrets
http://www.twincities.com/entertainment/ci_14659654

S.., Death and Sacrifice in the Mochica Religion:

http://www.artdaily.org/index.asp?int_sec=2&int_new=36791

To Live Forever:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/12/arts/design/12ancient.html

Musical Instruments at the Met:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/12/arts/music/12instruments.html

Treasures of Weymouth Relief Road:

http://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/news/5038162._Treasures__of_Weymouth_Relief_Road_to_go_on_show/

Lalla Essaydi:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/07/nyregion/07artsnj.html

Chinese Bronze Age Jade:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/12/arts/design/12antiques.html

Mechanics of Man:

http://www.physorg.com/news187448331.html

The Indian Portrait:

http://www.artdaily.org/index.asp?int_sec=2&int_new=36755

I think we mentioned these items lent to the Met by Italy before:

http://antiquesandthearts.com/Antiques/TradeTalk/2010-03-09__10-19-58.html

The Maastricht Art Fair is under way:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/13/arts/13iht-melik13.html

Out of the period of our purview, but interesting for comparison
purposes ... an Einstein manuscript:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/11/world/middleeast/11einstein.html

A History of the World (BM)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ahistoryoftheworld/explorerflash/

================================================================
PERFORMANCES AND THEATRE-RELATED
================================================================
Medea:

http://news.scotsman.com/entertainment/Theatre-review-Medea.6140761.jp

Blind:

http://theater.nytimes.com/2010/03/09/theater/reviews/09blind.html

Duchess of Malfi:

http://theater.nytimes.com/2010/03/09/theater/reviews/09duchess.html

The Demons (12 hours?!?):

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/12/theater/12play.html

French Art Song:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/07/nyregion/07musicwe.html

Boston Baroque:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/08/arts/music/08vespers.html
================================================================
OBITUARIES
================================================================
Sir Kenneth Dover:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/obituaries/article7054392.ece
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/7400324/Sir-Kenneth-Dover.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2010/mar/08/sir-kenneth-dover-obituary
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jMWPVlFm-ahopi0DUhx4qv3MEE0wD9EB3J1G1
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/14/books/14dover.html
http://news.scotsman.com/obituaries/Sir-Kenneth-Dover.6133799.jp
http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/greek-scholar-sir-kenneth-356957.html

Richard Stites:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/13/books/13stites.html
================================================================
PODCASTS
================================================================
The Book and the Spade:

http://www.radioscribe.com/bknspade.htm

The Dig:

http://www.thedigradio.com/

Stone Pages Archaeology News:

http://news.stonepages.com/

Archaeologica Audio News:

http://www.archaeologychannel.org/AudioNews.asp
================================================================
EXPLORATOR is a weekly newsletter representing the fruits of
the labours of 'media research division' of The Atrium. Various
on-line news and magazine sources are scoured for news of the
ancient world (broadly construed: practically anything relating
to archaeology or history prior to about 1700 or so is fair
game) and every Sunday they are delivered to your mailbox free of
charge!
================================================================
Useful Addresses
================================================================
Past issues of Explorator are available on the web via our
Yahoo site:

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Explorator/

To subscribe to Explorator, send a blank email message to:

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================================================================
Explorator is Copyright (c) 2010 David Meadows. Feel free to
distribute these listings via email to your pals, students,
teachers, etc., but please include this copyright notice. These
links are not to be posted to any website by any means (whether
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making use of content gathered in Explorator. Thanks!
================================================================
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74535 From: Cn. Cornelius Lentulus Date: 2010-03-17
Subject: Preliminary Invitation to the Floralia in Aquincum (Budapest, Hungar
Cn. Lentulus legatus pro praetore Pannoniae Quiritibus sal.

I am glad to announce this preliminary invitation the a Nova Roman event in Pannonia (Hungary), in Budapest, ancient city of Aquincum, celebrating the 2000th Anniversary of the Romans occupying the province (2009-2010 are declared the two years of celebration of the founding of Pannonia).

DATE: 22-23 MAY.

All Nova Romans are invited, accommodation will be provided at the homes of Pannonian Nova Romans and meal will be free!

Please send me a private note if you are interested.

The event is planned to be international, it depends on your participation from other provinces. Last year we had such excellent guests like Flamen C. Petronius from Gallia, A. Apollonius Cordus from Britannia, aedilicius Sex. Lucilius Tutor and others as well.

The Floralia of Aquincum is a great carnival organized by the Aquincum Museum, the 21st time this time, with which the Pannonian province of Nova Roma collaborates in organizing the programs. This is the 3rd time when Nova Roma is a co-organizer of the event.

There will be various activities and programs, spectacles, gladiators, legions, civilians, religious celebrations, Roman fashion show, plays, and much more.

More detailed announcements are coming soon.

Please send me a private note if you are interested.

VALETE!

CN CORNELIVS LENTVLVS
LEGATVS PRO PRAETORE PANNONIAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74536 From: Publius Memmius Albucius Date: 2010-03-17
Subject: Re: A joint invitation to Rome
Omnibus s.d.



I am glad to support this initiative of my dear colleague. In this mind, I accept to consider having agreed for signing this joint invitation.



This Rome event, in my mind, must be first a working meeting on NR top issues.



Even if a physical meeting is always a good thing, this event will have more chances of success if the question of our new Bylaws has been previously set (voted), and that it allows, apart the sweet pleasure breathing all together Roman atmosphere and the smell of pizze, several real working times on well pre-defined matters.



Last, I cannot say yet if I will be myself able to attend it, for this period is not the best one in my agenda, as I told my colleague, June being always, professionally, a busier period for me, sometimes w-e included.



Thanks for your understanding et valete omnes,





Albucius cos.





> From: christer.edling@...
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com; albucius_aoe@...
> Subject: A joint invitation to Rome
> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 18:27:50 +0100
> CC: SenatusRomanus@yahoogroups.com; novaroma-announce@yahoogroups.com; Cohors_CFBQ@yahoogroups.com
>
> Ex Officio Consulis Caesonis Fabii Buteonis Quintiliani
>
> The Nineth Consular edict CFBQ on the joint Consular invition to an
> International Conventus in Rome
>
>
> The Consuls of Nova Roma cordially invite Senatores, Magistrates,
> Accensi, Scribae and all other citizens of Nova Roma to the 2010
> International Nova Roma Conventus in Rome, Italy from June 17 to June
> 21 2010.
>
> Within these four days we will share our visions and hopes for the
> endeavors that will bring the Glory of Rome to life once again.
> Surrounded by the beauty of Rome we will walk the cobble stone streets
> where our ancestors tread, touch the walls of ancient monuments built
> with their own hands and sit on the ancient walls of fountains while
> discussing our plans for the future of Nova Roma. Being inspired by
> our surroundings we will dine on food descended from Rome�s many
> conquests and build camaraderie with each other while creating
> strategies to build a strong foundation for our initiatives.
>
> Over the four day period there will be planned tours, dinners,
> discussions, hearings, consultations and presentations including free
> time to enjoy Rome on your own or with other Novi Romani. We will
> also urganize religious ceremonies tothe plesure of the Gods. Please
> find time in your busy schedules to attend so we can form a strong
> presence in Europe as well as in North and South America for a unified
> Nova Roma.
>
> Come be part of the rebirth of Romanitas, the revival of the Roman
> Gods and the renaissance of Nova Roma!
>
> A detailed program and advises or directions on acccomodations will be
> published later.
>
> Given by
> Publius Memmius Albucius et Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus, Consules
>
> this 16th of March, in the year of the Consulship of P. Memmius
> Albucius and the Second Consulship of K.Fabius Buteo Quintilianus,
> 2763 AUC.
> *****************
> Vale
>
> Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus
>
> Consul Iterum
> Princeps Senatus et Flamen Palatualis
> Civis Romanus sum
> http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Main_Page
> ************************************************
> Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
> "I'll either find a way or make one"
> ************************************************
> Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
> Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
> ************************************************
> Mons Palatinus, Clivus Victoriae
> Palatine Hill, Incline of Victoriae
>
>
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail arrive sur votre t�l�phone ! Compatible Iphone, Windows Phone, Blackberry, �
http://www.messengersurvotremobile.com/?d=Hotmail

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74537 From: Christer Edling Date: 2010-03-17
Subject: A joint invitation to Rome
Ex Officio Consulis Caesonis Fabii Buteonis Quintiliani

The Nineth Consular edict CFBQ on the joint Consular invition to an
International Conventus in Rome


The Consuls of Nova Roma cordially invite Senatores, Magistrates,
Accensi, Scribae and all other citizens of Nova Roma to the 2010
International Nova Roma Conventus in Rome, Italy from June 17 to June
21 2010.

Within these four days we will share our visions and hopes for the
endeavors that will bring the Glory of Rome to life once again.
Surrounded by the beauty of Rome we will walk the cobble stone streets
where our ancestors tread, touch the walls of ancient monuments built
with their own hands and sit on the ancient walls of fountains while
discussing our plans for the future of Nova Roma. Being inspired by
our surroundings we will dine on food descended from Rome’s many
conquests and build camaraderie with each other while creating
strategies to build a strong foundation for our initiatives.

Over the four day period there will be planned tours, dinners,
discussions, hearings, consultations and presentations including free
time to enjoy Rome on your own or with other Novi Romani. We will
also urganize religious ceremonies tothe plesure of the Gods. Please
find time in your busy schedules to attend so we can form a strong
presence in Europe as well as in North and South America for a unified
Nova Roma.

Come be part of the rebirth of Romanitas, the revival of the Roman
Gods and the renaissance of Nova Roma!

A detailed program and advises or directions on acccomodations will be
published later.

Given by
Publius Memmius Albucius et Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus, Consules

this 16th of March, in the year of the Consulship of P. Memmius
Albucius and the Second Consulship of K.Fabius Buteo Quintilianus,
2763 AUC.
*****************
Vale

Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus

Consul Iterum
Princeps Senatus et Flamen Palatualis
Civis Romanus sum
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Main_Page
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
************************************************
Mons Palatinus, Clivus Victoriae
Palatine Hill, Incline of Victoriae
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74538 From: C.Maria Caeca Date: 2010-03-17
Subject: Re: Certamen Latinum, final results
Caeca Lupo Scholasticae, omnibusque S. P. D.

Thank you all for the kind words, but I cannot take full credit for these certamena! I had more than substantial help from Cn. Cornelius Lentulus (bless him), and it was he, not I, who was responsible for most of the advanced questions! He helped me in many other ways as well, so this truly was a team effort, and I am delighted to thank him, profusely and publicly.

As to the tie breaker question that didn't have to be asked ...it wouldn't have been too hard ...just a Latin translation of Shakespeare's Coriolanus! Being the generous soul that I am, of course, I would have given you ...24 hours, so it would have been *no* problem!

Vale et valete quam optime,
C. Maria Caeca

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74539 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2010-03-18
Subject: Re: Certamen Latinum, final results
>
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica C. Mariae Caecae M. Martianio Lupo quiritibus, sociis,
> peregrinisque bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
>
>
> Caeca Lupo Scholasticae, omnibusque S. P. D.
>
> Thank you all for the kind words, but I cannot take full credit for these
> certamena! I had more than substantial help from Cn. Cornelius Lentulus
> (bless him),
>
> ATS: Bless him indeed! I suspected that less than one year of Latin was
> not quite enough to come up with some of these little goodies.
>
>
> and it was he, not I, who was responsible for most of the advanced questions!
> He helped me in many other ways as well, so this truly was a team effort, and
> I am delighted to thank him, profusely and publicly.
>
> ATS: We are blessed to have him among us.
>
> As to the tie breaker question that didn't have to be asked ...it wouldn't
> have been too hard ...just a Latin translation of Shakespeare's Coriolanus!
> Being the generous soul that I am, of course, I would have given you ...24
> hours, so it would have been *no* problem!
>
> ATS: Oh? And would you supply the original text? Methinks I have
> Macbeth and some others, but Coriolanus is a bit récherché. Moreover, trust
> me, not even Avitus could do a Shakespearean play in 24 hours...though he
> would get a lot farther than any of us. Now, maybe a Terentian or Plautan
> play...how about Sophokles? W pai, pai dystonatatos, Hlektra matros, tin¹
> aei, takeis, hwd¹akoreston oimwgan... (haven¹t checked the text; hope my
> memory is reasonably sound...)
>
> No problem, my foot, young lady!
>
> Vale et valete quam optime,
> C. Maria Caeca
>
> Valete!
>
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74540 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2010-03-18
Subject: Oath of Office of Quaestor
(My apologies for the delayed posting of this oath, but last week was very busy)

I, Marcus Cornelius Gualterus Graecus (Walter M. Shandruk) do hereby solemnly swear to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Marcus Cornelius Gualterus Graecus (Walter M. Shandruk) swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

I, Marcus Cornelius Gualterus Graecus (Walter M. Shandruk) swear to uphold and defend the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to act in a way that would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Marcus Cornelius Gualterus Graecus (Walter M. Shandruk) swear to protect and defend the Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Marcus Cornelius Gualterus Graecus (Walter M. Shandruk) further swear to fulfill the obligations and responsibilities of the office of Quaestor to the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do I accept the position of Quaestor and all the rights, privileges, obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74541 From: Marcus Audens Date: 2010-03-18
Subject: Re: [SenatusRomanus] RE: A joint invitation to Rome
Honored Consuls;

My thanks for your kind invitation. However, I am keyed to a previous commitment with wife and friends and will be feverishly preparing for a flight to England to spend the following three days there, prior to a North Atlantic sea voyage.

Respectfully;

Marcus Audens.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74542 From: Publius Memmius Albucius Date: 2010-03-18
Subject: The senate is called in session
P. Memmius Albucius cos. Patribus, collegae, magistratibus, omn.que in senatu s.d.

Considering that:
- I have informed the senate and the citizens of my intent convening the senate on last March 10 (msg ML # 74470 and SL # 16804);
- the tensed schedule, specially due to the difficulty to obtain favorable auspices, has made clear that March 21st was a more convenient day than the day before to open the senate session;
- Mag. augurum Moravius has taken at dawn, this a.d. XI Apr. 2763 auc (Th. March 18, 2010), the required auspices which were favorable;

Quod bonum felixque sit populo romano quiritium, I edict the following and referimus ad vos, Patres conscripti:


Art. 1 : The Senate is hereby convened for a session. Its advice and/or decision is asked, in the frame of this session, on the agenda presented in the relatio presented below ;

Art. 2 : The Senate is considered as being composed by all the senators present on the last album senatorium, such as issued by the censors, minus Ullerius (PUSV) who has resigned since. The Senate is thus composed at the present time of 30 senators.

Art. 3 : The senate will be asked to issue a vote on certain items, but not on other ones which are proposed to the Curia either for its information, or for discussion so that a further decision may be taken in the best environment as possible. The relatio will specify the type of each of its items (information, discussion, discussion +vote) ;

Art. 4 : The time table of the whole session is the following one, every hour being expressed for Rome, except in the table below:
a)
5.1. Session
Beginning: 14:00 hour, a.d. XII Kal. Apr. (March 21) ; end: sunset a.d. IV Kal. Apr. (March. 29)
5.2. Contio
Beginning: 15:00 hour, a.d. XII Kal. Apr. (March 21) ; end: 15:00 hour, a.d. VI Kal. Apr. (Mar. 27)
5.3. Vote
Beginning: 16:30 hour, a.d. VI Kal. Feb. (Mar. 27); end: 16:30 hour, a.d. IV Kal. Apr. (March. 29)

b) The session will be closed on NP dies a.d. XI and X Kal. Apr. (March 22 and 23) and reopened at Rome time dawn on 24th (a.d. IX Kal. Apr.).




Art. 5 : The senators are reminded to, and thanked for, observing the SC on the �adoption of internal regulations of the Senate (Senate closed out of sessions, moderation, no discussion when voting)� adopted a.d. III Nonas Dec. 2762 auc (Dec. 3, 2010). Its text may be consulted again at: http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Consular_report_of_December_2762_auc_session .



Art. 6 : The relatio ('agenda') of the present session is the following one:

Item I � Provinces � Definition and delineation � European provinces � Oblast Kaliningrad - amendment (discussion + vote)
Item II � Provinces � Definition and delineation � Oceania Asia and Latin America provinces (discussion + vote)
Item III � Emergency Disaster fund - deletion (discussion + vote)
Item IV � Resignation of aedilis and governor Germaniae T. Flavius Aquila (information)
Item V � Aedilis curulis - appointment � senatus consultum ultimum (discussion + vote)
Item VI � Coming comitia centuriata � Religious paragraph (ex. �Blasphemy clause�) (information and advice)
Item VII � Coming comitia centuriata � Tribunician entry in office (information and advice)
Item VIII � Coming comitia centuriata � Adaptation of the number of our public officers to our citizenry - Modification of the number of minor magistrates (information and advice)
Item IX � Writing of by-laws for NR Inc. non profit making corporation (information)
Item X � The anger of the gods � divine negative signs reported by PM Moravius � grounds - possible measures (discussion)
Item XI � Context of the budget proposal (information)
Item XII � Schedule Budget-Taxes-Census (information)
Item XIII� Budget main lines (discussion + vote)
Item XIV� Budget 2763/2010 (discussion + vote)



Art. 7 : The items mentioned in the article 6 may be completed in the following days by additional items or, for further information, by attached documents, available from next March 21st on, for an easier reading, in the Senatus Romanus files section at (copy-paste this link if any problem):
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SenatusRomanus/files/2763%20auc%20%282010%29%20March%20session/


Thanks for your attention, Senators. Have all a good session and valete omnes.




P. Memmius Albucius cos.
_________________________________________________________________
Consultez vos emails Orange, Gmail, Yahoo!, Free ... directement depuis HOTMAIL !
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74543 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2010-03-18
Subject: Re: Ancient Rome Refocused , A Blog and Podcast
Livia Petronio sal.

LLP2: Finally I have some time to review past mail. This topic was too
interesting to let it drop.

Petronius: Life exspectancy was short. Some said that important saturnism at
this time was lead piping disease.

LLP2: Life expectancy in the Roman empire was longer than it has ever been
after until the industrial revolution. Some new research has disproved the
saturnism theory. The truth is that the advantages provided by having
sanitation and running water by far overcame the effects of slight lead
poisoning.

> If I was a rich enough free woman I would feel totally comfortable in
> ancient Rome and I don't think my life expectation would be shortened very
> much.

Petronius: Many women, and the riche too, was dying in childbirth. The life
exspectancy was terribly short. Obviously, you had exceptions, but all rules
have exceptions.

I read the interesting book of Ronald Syme The Roman Revolution. You can
follow the die out of almost all the Republican families in one century. Not
only by civil wars, or caesarian proscriptions, but mostly by natural
exstinction.

LLP2: Women died in childbirth for many centuries later too, until very
recently.

> But even being a household slave would be better than living any time
> between the Middle Ages and the unity of Italy.

Petronius: It is a point of view. Mine is, better free life without running
water than being slave even in a palace with golden faucets. The top, of
course, is being free with running water. ;o)

LLP2: Petroni mi, women were practically slaves until the women's
liberation movements in the modern era. The Roman Empire was a period of
unequalled freedom for free women, never to be repeated for many centuries.
And then, since the raise of monotheisms, for several centuries people have
been free in body only, but not in mind. Without freedom of thought, legal
freedom wouldn't have much value for me.

> All the subsequent centuries were the reign of uncomfortable clothes for
> women and no hygiene.

Petronius. How uncomfortable clothes? In Medieval fashion women do not seem
less comfortable dressed than Roman women. And finally in West, the
barbarian clothings outdo Roman ones in comfort. I think indeed very
dangerous to take a metro train dressed in toge. ;o)

LLP2: Women were much more unconfortably dressed in the Middle Ages. That
was when clothes became tight and body-fitting. No more running around in
the palaestra in bikinis either. And you'd have to wash your clothes
yourself, rather than bringing them to the fullonica. I suspect in the
Middle Ages this meant very little washing.

In fact, even for the insula dweller, the Roman Empire was the most
comfortable period in all pre-industrial history.
If you lived in an insula you would take advantage of the very developed
service sector. Since there were no cooking facilities people just went down
to the popina for meals. They went to the public toilets for their needs,
and to the thermae for bathing and lots of recreational activities.
I'ts true that one had to walk to the ground floor and up to 40 metres away
to get water, but since no water was needed for cooking and washing, only a
few buckets would suffice for cleaning the apartment and washing up the
chamber-pots used at night.
All in all, a very pleasant life, even if you didn't have any slaves, which
was apparently a very rare condition, and even if you were a household slave
you'd have less to do than some servants today.


Optime vale,
Livia



Optime vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
A. d. VII Idus Martias P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74544 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-19
Subject: Re: Call for candidacy for AEDILIS CURULIS
Cato Memmio Albucio consule omnibusque in foro SPD

I hereby offer my candidacy for the office of aedilis curulis.

Vale et valete,

Cato



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "publiusalbucius" <albucius_aoe@...> wrote:
>
> Quiritibus s.d.
>
> As you all know, our aedilis curulis maior and friend T. Flavius Aquila has considered that he could not carry on his duties for the Republic nor staying among us.
>
> Though Aquila's resignation is a real loss for our community, the life of Rome goes on, and we need filling in the office of aedilis curulis, beside aedilis cur. Constantinus.
>
> Every interested citizen fulfilling the legal requirements shall present her/his candidacy writing to me at my private address, before next March 20th.
>
> Thanks for your attention, Quirites, et valete omnes.
>
>
> P. Memmius Albucius
> consul
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74545 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-03-19
Subject: a. d. XIV Kalendas Apriles: QUINQUATRUS, Minervalia
M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus cultoribus Deorum, Quiritibus et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit: Minerva sapientiam in nos infundat.

Hodie est ante diem XIIII Kalendas Apriles; haec dies nefastus piaculum est: Quinquatrus, Feriae Marti: Minervalia, dies artificum.

"The Salii were named from salitare, because they had the custom and the duty of dancing yearly in the Comitium in their ceremonies." ~ Varro, Lingua Latinae 5.85

Quinquatrus, the fifth day after the Ides of March (counted inclusively), saw the Salii joined by the tribuni celerum for a
ritual purification of the ancilae and a sacrifice offered to Mars, performed in the Comitium, followed by a feast. The Celeres were
originally three hundred cavalrymen, one hundred drawn from each of the original three tribes established by Romulus. They formed the personal armed bodyguard of Romulus. According to Livy, the Celeres guarded him even in peacetime for although Romulus was much beloved by the common people and by the soldiers, he was not so loved by members of the Senate (Livy 1.15.8). Under the Republic the Celeres became the 300 Equites Equo Publico. All of these Equites were either Senators or the sons of Senators, representing the elite of Roman society. It was not until 129 BCE that passage of a plebiscitum equorum reddendorum ordered all senatores to give up their public horses, effectively increasing the number of Equites Equo Publico as Censor M. Porcius Cato had first proposed in 184. By the mid-Republic these three officers of the Celeres had only a ceremonial role, but what rituals they might have performed, other than this one along with the Salii, isn't known. It would seem that the Salii danced around the ancilae, or perhaps danced with the ancilae around the arms of the Celeres, as in the Armilustrium of 19 October.


Mineralia

"The first day is bloodless, and sword fights are unlawful, because Minerva was born on that very day. The next four are celebrated with gladiatorial shows, the warlike Goddess delights in naked swords." ~ Ovidius Naso, Fasti 3.811-814

Two temples of Minerva were dedicated on this day. On the Caelian, the Minervium was a small shrine for Minerva Capta. Here stood a statue of Minerva that was captured from the city of Falerii in 241 BCE, and thus Her name. The other temple, located on the Aventine Hill, was possibly dedicated for Minerva Medica, circa 105 BCE. A five day festival for Minerva began on 19 March.

As the Goddess of crafts, this festival was celebrated as the diesartificum by shoemakers, spinners and weavers, tanners and dyers,
physicians, teachers, painters, sculptors, musicians and artists of all kinds.

"Proud, warlike Goddess, great honor and wisdom of Your Father, powerful in war are You, on whom the grim helmet is borne with its frightful decoration, speckled with the Gorgon's blood that glows more violent with increasing rage, never has Mavors or Bellona with Her battle spear inspired more ardent calls to arms on the war trumpets than You. May You with Your nod accept this sacrificial offering. Whether You come from Mount Pandion to our rites by night, or from dancing happily in Ainian Itone, or from washing once more Your hair in the waters of Libyan Triton, or whether the winged axle of your war chariot, with its paired pure-bred horses carries you astride its beam, shouting aloud, now, to You, we dedicate the shattered spoils of virile men and their battered armour. Should I return to my Parthaonian fields, and upon being sighted Martian Pleuron should throw open wide her gates for me, then amid her hills, at the center of the city, I shall dedicate to you a golden temple where it may be your pleasure to look upon Ionian storms, and where Achelous tosses about his flaxen hair to disturb the sea where it leaves behind the breakers of Echinades. In here will I display accounts of ancestral wars and the death-masks of great hearted kings, and affix the arms of the proud in the rotunda that I have returned with myself, taken at the cost of my own blood, and those, Tritonia, that you will grant when Thebes is captured. There a hundred Calydonian virgins will serve in devotions at your altar, shall duly twine the Actaean torches, and weave from Your chaste olive tree purple sacrificial fillets with snow white strands of wool. At nightly vigils an aged priestess will tend your altar's fire, and never will she neglect to safeguard your modesty, attending in secret to the rites of your boudoir. To you in war, to you in peace, the first fruits of our labors shall be borne, without offence to Diana." ~ P. Papinius Statius, Thebaid 2.715-42


Our thought for today comes from Epicurus, Vatican Saying 79:

"He who is calm disturbs neither himself nor another."
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74546 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-03-20
Subject: a. d. XIII Kalendas Apriles: Sexatrus and the Aequinoctium vernum
M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus Quiritibus et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit: Deus salvere vos iubet.

Hodie est ante diem XIII Kalendas Apriles; haec dies comitialis est: Sexatrus; Aequinoctium vernum, tempestatem significat.

The sixth day (Sexatrus) after the Ides of March, on which the Minervalia continues with the introduction of gladiatorial contests.
The Vernal Equinox occurrs today, around 13:32 hours ESTor about 19.32 at Rome, making today the first day of Spring! This is the time when the sun, travelling along the ecliptic crosses the celestial equator on its journey seemingly north. Here, where I live, near the fourty-first parallel, the air is still cool, although the sun is warm by day, the soil is cold and wet, rains beginning with still some snow occassionally. For such cooler climes Cato recommended ploughing be held off until after the vernal equinox. (I have my first plantings in the soil already.) Pliny gives an anectdote for this with a story about the Treviri of Gaul.

AUC 830 / 77 CE: "The crops having been nipped by the extreme severity of the winter, the people sowed the land over again in the month of March, and had a most abundant harvest." ~ C. Plinius 18.49 (19)

Pliny goes on to tell us a little more about the work done at different times, in different places, generally in accordance with observation of the stars. He notes for instance that the last day of Minervalia occurs with the setting of Pegasus in the morning twelve days before the Kalends of April. Actually Pegasus is rising just before dawn about now. Neverthe less the cycles for plowing and sowing, no matter where in the Empire, was based upon star risings and settings. This is attested by Pliny and by his sources, such as Cato (De Agri Cultura) and Vergil (Georgic I), by Varro (De Rustica) and later with Collumella. In northern climes, Pliny tells how adjustments are made as to which crops might be sown earlier.

"There are some, however, who begin very early, and have a saying to justify their doing so, to the effect that if seed sown too early often disappoints, seed put in too late always does so. On the other hand, again, there are some who maintain that it is better to sow in spring than in a bad autumn; and they say that if they find themselves obliged to sow in spring, they would choose the period that intervenes between the prevalence of the west winds and the vernal equinox. Some persons, however, take no notice of the celestial phenomena, and only regulate their movements by the months. In spring they put in flax, the oat, and the poppy, up to the feast of the Quinquatria,7 as we find done at the present day by the people of Italy beyond the Padus." ~ C. Plinius 18.56

For Italy itself, Pliny lays out the work to be done from the vernal equinox to the morning rising of the Vergiliae (Pleiades) in May. Drainage ditches are to be dug, tools prepared, and pruning completed before the vernal equinox. Plowing is done around the equinox,with this third and final ploughing intended to till manure into the soil. Then some early sowing is done in the two weeks immediately following the equinox. And final sowing is to be completed by 10 May.

"In this interval of time, during the first fifteen days, the agriculturist must make haste and do all the work for which he has not been able to find time before the vernal equinox; and he should bear in mind that those who are late in pruning their vines are exposed to jibes and taunts, in imitation of the note of the bird of passage known to us as the cuckoo. For it is looked upon as a disgrace, and one that subjects him to well-merited censure, for that bird, upon its arrival, to find him only then pruning his vines. Hence it is, too, that we find those cutting jokes, of which our peasantry are the object, at the beginning of spring. Still, however, all such jokes are to be looked upon as most abominable, from the ill omens they convey. In this way, then, we see that, in agricultural operations, the most trifling things are construed as so many hints supplied us by Nature." ~ C. Plinius 18.66

Well, most of my tilling is done; one garden is still too wet. Peas are in the soil, soon to be joined by other cold weather vegetables. But killing frosts are still due until mid May. Still some fertilizing to do, and lots of pruning yet to finish, and quite satisfying to sit in cool breezes beneath the stars at the end of the day's chores.


The Sabine Bull

"There was amongst the Sabines one man who believed that an opportunity presented itself of recovering the supremacy through his own individual cunning. The story runs that a man of substance belonging to that nation had a heifer of marvellous size and beauty. The marvel was attested in after ages by the horns which were fastened up in the vestibule of the temple of Diana. The creature was looked upon as-what it really was-a prodigy, and the soothsayers predicted that, whoever sacrificed it to Diana, the state of which he was a citizen should be the seat of empire. This prophecy had reached the ears of the official in charge of the temple of Diana. When the first day on which the sacrifice could properly be offered arrived, the Sabine drove the heifer to Rome, took it to the temple, and placed it in front of the altar. The official in charge was a Roman, and, struck by the size of the victim, which was well known by report, he recalled the prophecy and addressing the Sabine, said, "Why, pray, are you, stranger, preparing to offer a polluted sacrifice to Diana? Go and bathe yourself first in running water. The Tiber is flowing down there at the bottom of the valley." Filled with misgivings, and anxious for everything to be done properly that the prediction might be fulfilled, the stranger promptly went down to the Tiber. Meanwhile the Roman sacrificed the heifer to Diana. This was a cause of intense gratification to the king and to his people." ~ Titus Livius 1.45.6-7


AUC 695 / 58 BCE: Cicero leaves for exile, first traveling to the home of Sica near Vibo.


Today's thought is a passage from Euripides, Bellerophon, fr. 287, quoted by Marcus Aurelius, in Meditations 7.38:

"It is not right to vex ourselves at mere things, Brute facts should not provoke our rage: For they have no mind to care, and care nought about it."
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74547 From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com Date: 2010-03-20
Subject: Reminder Ludi Apollinares, 3/20/2010, 12:00 pm
Reminder from:   Nova-Roma Yahoo! Group
 
Title:   Reminder Ludi Apollinares
 
Date:   Saturday March 20, 2010
Time:   12:00 pm - 1:00 pm
Repeats:   This event repeats every week until Friday July 9, 2010.
Location:   Ludi Apollinares
Notes:   Don't forget to be inspired and start your project for the Ludi honoring Apollo!

http://www.novaroma.org/nr/MMDCCLXIII/Ludi_Apollinares
 
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74548 From: publiusalbucius Date: 2010-03-20
Subject: AEDILIS CURULIS candidates
Omnibus s.d.

The deadline set for the candidacies is now over.

Two citizens have wished proposing themselves as aediliis curulis. Both of them fulfill all the legal requirements. In addition, the res publica is luck enough that both be reliable and skilled cives.

Here are they, in the order of their announced candidacies:

G. Equitius Cato
L. Iulia Aquila

Both candidacies will be examined during the senate session which begins tomorrow.

Valete omnes,


Albucius



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "publiusalbucius" <albucius_aoe@...> wrote:
>
> Quiritibus s.d.
>
> As you all know, our aedilis curulis maior and friend T. Flavius Aquila has considered that he could not carry on his duties for the Republic nor staying among us.
>
> Though Aquila's resignation is a real loss for our community, the life of Rome goes on, and we need filling in the office of aedilis curulis, beside aedilis cur. Constantinus.
>
> Every interested citizen fulfilling the legal requirements shall present her/his candidacy writing to me at my private address, before next March 20th.
>
> Thanks for your attention, Quirites, et valete omnes.
>
>
> P. Memmius Albucius
> consul
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74549 From: corvulus@ymail.com Date: 2010-03-20
Subject: novus civis
Omnibus civibus Novae Romae salutem, sodalibus quibus animae, virtutis et fidei socius et particeps sum. Romanam claritatem, Diis iuvantibus, fortitudo nostra iucunde renovare possit.
Marcus Valerius Corvus domo Romae

britannico sermone: Hi to all citizens of Nova Roma, who soul, virtue and trust I' parteciping.
May our strengh, with help of Gods, renew the greatness of Rome and enjoy for it
M V C
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74550 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2010-03-20
Subject: Spring Rite by Sacerdos Veneris Genetricis L. Iulia Aquila
L. Iulia Aquila Omnibus S.P.D.

This morning a small quiet ritual to Venus was performed with only the sounds of spring as accompaniment - remembered also and enjoined to Mater Venus, her beloved consort Mars. Although it was initially overcast the colors were brilliant, delicate shoots of different blooms poked through the damp earth, the grass shown a brilliant emerald. The water calmly flowed like fine blue-green velvet. Birds of all sorts flew about showing off their beautiful songs and exquisite plumage. The sacrifices, offerings, were well received - the auspices positive especially with the clouds parting and the sun appeared washing all in precious nourishing light as I waited in the final meditation.

Although I will not have a garden this year prayers and sacrifice were made for Nova Roma that she blossom and grow with new citizens and realized initiatives, that our citizens and magistrates be seeded with inspiration and that we will have abundant accomplishments.

Happy Spring! Happy Vernal Equinox! Habéte fortúnam bonam!

Valéte optimé in pace Deorum,

L. Iulia Aquila
Sacerdos Veneris Genetricis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74551 From: C.Maria Caeca Date: 2010-03-20
Subject: Re: Spring Rite by Sacerdos Veneris Genetricis L. Iulia Aquila
Caeca Juliae Aquilae sal,

...and a most happy vernal equinox to you, also! thanks for sharing your lovely ritual with us ...such things delight the heart!

Vale bene!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74552 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2010-03-20
Subject: Re: novus civis
L. Livia Plauta M. Valerio Corvo sal.
Bene venisti! Si bene video cives romanus es, et non solum novus romanus.
Spero te videre in lista latina
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma-Latina/) et in lista italica
(http://it.groups.yahoo.com/group/novaromaitalia/) .
Ego itala sum, sed Budapestini habito, in provincia Pannonia.

Optime vale,
Livia


----- Original Message -----
From: <corvulus@...>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2010 8:24 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] novus civis


Omnibus civibus Novae Romae salutem, sodalibus quibus animae, virtutis et
fidei socius et particeps sum. Romanam claritatem, Diis iuvantibus,
fortitudo nostra iucunde renovare possit.
Marcus Valerius Corvus domo Romae

britannico sermone: Hi to all citizens of Nova Roma, who soul, virtue and
trust I' parteciping.
May our strengh, with help of Gods, renew the greatness of Rome and enjoy
for it
M V C
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74553 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2010-03-20
Subject: Re: Spring Rite by Sacerdos Veneris Genetricis L. Iulia Aquila
Iulia Caeca s.p.d.

You're very welcome and thank you!
Corda serrata pando!

Cura ut valeas amica!

Julia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "C.Maria Caeca" <c.mariacaeca@...> wrote:
>
> Caeca Juliae Aquilae sal,
>
> ...and a most happy vernal equinox to you, also! thanks for sharing your lovely ritual with us ...such things delight the heart!
>
> Vale bene!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74554 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2010-03-20
Subject: Re: novus civis
Iulia Aquila Valerio Corvo S.P.D.

Welcome to Nova Roma! Glad to make your acquaintance!

Valé et habé fortúna bona; di Novae Romae favent!

Julia


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Livia Plauta" <livia.plauta@...> wrote:
>
> L. Livia Plauta M. Valerio Corvo sal.
> Bene venisti! Si bene video cives romanus es, et non solum novus romanus.
> Spero te videre in lista latina
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma-Latina/) et in lista italica
> (http://it.groups.yahoo.com/group/novaromaitalia/) .
> Ego itala sum, sed Budapestini habito, in provincia Pannonia.
>
> Optime vale,
> Livia
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <corvulus@>
> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2010 8:24 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] novus civis
>
>
> Omnibus civibus Novae Romae salutem, sodalibus quibus animae, virtutis et
> fidei socius et particeps sum. Romanam claritatem, Diis iuvantibus,
> fortitudo nostra iucunde renovare possit.
> Marcus Valerius Corvus domo Romae
>
> britannico sermone: Hi to all citizens of Nova Roma, who soul, virtue and
> trust I' parteciping.
> May our strengh, with help of Gods, renew the greatness of Rome and enjoy
> for it
> M V C
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74555 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2010-03-20
Subject: Re: novus civis
>
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica M. Valerio Corvo S.P.D.
>
> Gratissimus es nobis (Latinistis quidem)! Speramus te vitam tuam cum
> civibus Novae Romae magnopere fructurum esse! Roma uno die aedificata non
> erat, nec Nova Roma, sed simus semina gentis resurgentis, et Latinae civitatis
> condamus fundamina, sicut in hymno Provinciae dicit.
>
> Scisne nos forum Latinum et sodalitatem Latinitatis habere?
>
> Vale!
>
>
> Omnibus civibus Novae Romae salutem, sodalibus quibus animae, virtutis et
> fidei socius et particeps sum. Romanam claritatem, Diis iuvantibus, fortitudo
> nostra iucunde renovare possit.
> Marcus Valerius Corvus domo Romae
>
> britannico sermone: Hi to all citizens of Nova Roma, who soul, virtue and
> trust I' parteciping.
> May our strengh, with help of Gods, renew the greatness of Rome and enjoy for
> it
> M V C
>
>
>
>
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74556 From: Publius Memmius Albucius Date: 2010-03-20
Subject: Comitia centuriata call to order (next 29/3-10/4)
P. Memmius Albucius cos. Quiritibus s.d.



In view of the Constitution of Nova Roma, in its paragraph I.D. and III.B. ;
Considering the auspices that I have taken at dawn, this a.d. XV Apr. 2763 auc (Th. March 18, 2010), which were favorable ;
After due consultation of my colleague Fabius Buteo,
Considering the advice of the Senate during its session of March 21st ;



Quod bonum felixque sit populo romano quiritium,
I edict the following and referimus ad vos, Quirites :



Art. 1 : The Comitia centuriata is hereby convened for a session. The decision of its centuries is requires, in the frame of this session, on the agenda presented in the relatio presented below ;



Art. 2 : The time table of the session is the following one, every hour being expressed for Rome, except in the table below:
2.1. Session
Beginning: 16:30 hour, a.d. IV Kal. Apr. (March. 29) ; end: sunset a.d. IV Id Apr. (Apr. 10)
2.2. Contio
Beginning: 17:00 hour, a.d. IV Kal. Apr. (March. 29) ; end: 15:00 hour, pr. Non. Apr. (Apr. 4)
2.3. Vote
Beginning: 16:00 hour, pr. Non. Apr. (Apr. 4) ; end: 16:00 hour, a.d. IV Id Apr. (Apr. 10)




Art. 3 : The relatio ('agenda') of the present session is the following one:

Item I � Constitution � Move and rewording of the �religious paragraph� of par. VI.A. to par. I (ex. �Blasphemy clause�)
Item II � Constitution � Date of entry in office of the Tribunes of the Plebs - Rewording of the introduction to paragraph IV.A.
Item III � Constitution � Adaptation of the number of our public officers to our citizenry - Modification of the number of quaestors - Rewording of the paragraph IV.A.6
Item IV � Lex Equitia de vigintisexviris � deletion on pr. Kal. 2764 auc of its paragraph II.B on rogators



Art. 4 : The items mentioned in the article 3 may be completed before the opening of the contio by additional items or by attached documents, available from next March 20st on, for an easier reading, in the Comitia centuriata files section, folder �CC March-April 2763 auc�, at (copy-paste this link if any problem):
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NovaRomaComitiaCenturiata/files/CC%20March-April%202763%20auc/



Thanks for your attention, Quirites. Have all a good comitia and valete omnes.



P. Memmius Albucius cos.
_________________________________________________________________
Consultez vos emails Orange, Gmail, Yahoo!, Free ... directement depuis HOTMAIL !
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74557 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2010-03-21
Subject: Re: novus civis
C. Petronius Tulliae Scholasticae M. Valerioque s.p.d.,

> >nec Nova Roma, sed simus semina gentis resurgentis, et Latinae civitatis condamus fundamina, sicut in hymno Provinciae dicit.

Suspicor, nisi fallor, M. Valerium Corvum nescire qui hymnus Provinciae sit. Etenim Provincia est hodiernum nomen quo Francogalli utuntur ut antiquam provinciam Narbonensem designent. Qua in provincia, Provincia nuncupata, aliqui incolae regionali lingua loqui et canere voluerunt, poeta Mistral duce. Hymni enim verba Latina in methodo Assimil a Clemente Desessart scripta insunt, paginis 450-452.

Praesertim nunc hymnus Provinciae, qui Calix Sanctus intitulatur, in stadiis ad recreandum vires ludorum (qui "rugbymen" vulgo dicuntur) canitur et nonnumquam in regionalibus concitationibus.

Optime valete.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
A. d. XII Kalendas Apriles P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74558 From: Kirsteen Wright Date: 2010-03-21
Subject: Re: Spring Rite by Sacerdos Veneris Genetricis L. Iulia Aquila
On Sat, Mar 20, 2010 at 8:40 PM, luciaiuliaaquila
<dis_pensible@...>wrote:

> L. Iulia Aquila Omnibus S.P.D.
>
> This morning a small quiet ritual to Venus was performed with only the
> sounds of spring as accompaniment - remembered also and enjoined to Mater
> Venus, her beloved consort Mars.
>
> Thank you for sharing this - it sounds beautiful.

Flavia Lucilla Merula


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74559 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2010-03-21
Subject: How can I find what I search?
Salvete,

How can I find the list of the annual 2009 taxes? I searched through the civic life pages, I found nothing, so I searched through the Provinces pages, I found nothing... this wiki NR web site is so mysterious that a mother hen could not find her chicks. Does we have the handbook of Sherlock Holmes to find any main and daily informations?

We have links on the main page to many trivial matters but nothing about the first things which a new citizen has to know. Even if I click on the link "civic life" I found nothing about the amounts of the last yearly taxes neither on the link "provinces"... who can help Theseus in this labyrinth?

Optime valete.

--
C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
a.d. XII Kalendas Apriles. P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74560 From: iulius sabinus Date: 2010-03-21
Subject: Re: How can I find what I search?
SALVE DEXTER!
 
Our wiki is complex indeed. However is not so difficult to search through it. On the wiki main page is the search box. Using there the proper words one can find the needed results. The entire problem consists in using the proper word/words in order to find the result. In fact is the same as searching on Google.
In your case the words are tax and rate, therefore, typing in the search box these words, “tax rate", you will be directed to the page displaying all tax rates.
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Special:Search?search=tax+rate
There choose what you need. 
That is in my opinion the easier way. Another possibility is to go on the category page of any year. Like this:
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Category:MMDCCLXII
At "T" you will find it.
 
For anyone, the tax rate for 2009 is here:
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Tax_rate_MMDCCLXII%c2%a0

 
VALE,
T. Iulius Sabinus





"Every individual is the architect of his own fortune" - Appius Claudius

--- On Sun, 3/21/10, Gaius Petronius Dexter <jfarnoud94@...> wrote:


From: Gaius Petronius Dexter <jfarnoud94@...>
Subject: [Nova-Roma] How can I find what I search?
To: "Nova Roma" <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sunday, March 21, 2010, 11:34 AM


 



Salvete,

How can I find the list of the annual 2009 taxes? I searched through the civic life pages, I found nothing, so I searched through the Provinces pages, I found nothing... this wiki NR web site is so mysterious that a mother hen could not find her chicks. Does we have the handbook of Sherlock Holmes to find any main and daily informations?

We have links on the main page to many trivial matters but nothing about the first things which a new citizen has to know. Even if I click on the link "civic life" I found nothing about the amounts of the last yearly taxes neither on the link "provinces". .. who can help Theseus in this labyrinth?

Optime valete.

--
C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
a.d. XII Kalendas Apriles. P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74561 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-03-21
Subject: a. d. XII Kalendas Apriles: Septmatras; Ovid; Approaching the Gods
M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus Quiritibus et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit: Invenietis omnia prospera evenisse sequentibus Deos, adversa spernentibus

Hodie est ante diem XII Kalendas Apriles; haec dies comitialis est: Septimatrus; Equus occidit mane, septentrionales venti.

Today is the seventh day (Septimatrus) after the Ides of March, on which the Minervalia continues with gladiatorial contests.

AUC 710 / 43 BCE: Birth of Publius Ovidius Naso.

Born to an equestrian family in Sulmona, Ovid was intended to practice law. He held some minor public offices before pursuing poetry as his occupation. M. Valerius Messalia Corvinus became Ovid's patron. During the war between Octavius and Marcus Antonius, it was Valerius Corvinus who replaced Antonius as consul in 31 BCE. As consul, he was one of the generals for Octavius at the Battle of Actium that year. A female relative of Valerius Corvinus, possibly his sister, was married to another consul, Q. Pedius Publicola, who was a cousin of Octavius. It was through Valerius that Ovid was thus introduced to the imperial court and to the circle of Julia the Younger. He had attained his fame as a poet with the publication of the Amores in 20 BCE. This was followed by his Ars Amatoria, the poem that Ovid later identified as the one that officially led to his exile.

In 8 CE Ovid completed the Heroides and perhaps his most important poem, the Metamorphoses. This work is the oldest collection, and in many cases it is the only source, of Greek myths. By that time, at the age of fifty-one, he had been twice divorced, the last marriage ending more than twenty years earlier. He had one daughter, who would have been around the same age as Julia the Younger. Ovid was certainly aware of Julia's adulterous affairs. He may have known, too, about a conspiracy against Augustus that involved Julia, her husband and her lover. Ovid's crime was not reporting what he may have known. Julia and Agrippa Postumus, the grandchildren of Augustus, were sent into exile. Her husband, L. Aemilius Paullus, and her lover, Decimus Silanus, were executed. Augustus sent Ovid into exile at the farthest end of the Empire, on the Black Sea coast at Tomis. Two-thousand years later a group of us – Sabinus and Carina, Lentulus and Popillia, Livia Plauta and I, gathered beneath the statue of Ovid in Tomis and remembered his journey to that place.


Approaching the Gods

"The best and also the most chaste, holiest and most pious way of worshipping the Gods is ever to venerate Them with purity, sincerity, and innocence both in thought and of speech." ~ M. Tullius Cicero, De Natura Deorum 2.71)

Towards the end of the Republic, and during the principate, there began a change in how members of the elite perceived worship. It
probably came as a reaction to excesses in sacrifices, the number of victims ever increasing, the displays put on for the Gods ever more vulgar and lewd, and the cost ever more extravagant as huge amounts of spices were offered up. While the State cultus Deorum were given over more to pomp and showmanship, members of the elite posed that the only acceptable offerings to present to the Gods are "holiness of mind and purity of heart (Persius, Satires 2.73-74)."

"The Gods rejoice more in the innocence of worshippers than in elaborate prayers; the man who enters Their temples with a pure heart
is more agreeable to the Gods than anyone who recites a carefully prepared litany." ~ C. Caecilius Plinius Secundus minor, Panegyric 3

Ancient religions were preoccupied with ritual purity. One must be ritually pure in order to partake in rituals that bind the community with the Gods. Equating ritual purity with a purification of the soul, based on morality, was not a new concept. The negative confession in the Egyptian Book of Coming Forth by Day (125) is an early example, as are texts from Mesoptomania and those of Jewish traditions. Violation of the codes of morality were seen as a form of rebellion against the law of the Gods. In Greece early rationalist philosophers like Heraclitus criticised the use of traditional purification rituals alone, without sincerity, and without moral rectitude. Greek dramatists explored such ideas on moral wrongs as offenses against the Gods in plays on Orestes, Agamemnon, and Oedipus. Earlier, Homer had expressed the idea in the Illiad (1.8-52) where the Greeks are plagued by Apollo for an offense committed by Agamemnon against the daughter of Apollo's sacerdos, just as Thebes fell under a plague because of Oedipus' act of incest. In the fifth and fourth century Orphics and Pythagoreans introduce the idea of moral societies, with penance for moral wrongs as a means of remaining within their communities. Plato, likewise, criticised travelling purifiers who performed incantations and rituals in a mechanical way, and without sincerity (Republic 364b ff; Laws 9.831-873). In the dialogues that discuss the soul, Plato lays out the idea of a morally pure soul (katharon), deviod of the imperfections of "loves, desires, fears and fantasies," as the means of communing, or attaining to a place with the Gods (Phaedo 66b-67b; 80d-81d; etc.).

At Rome the wrath of the Gods might be attributed to neglect of due rites and religious ceremonies, as some explained the disaster at Trasimene in the late third century (Livy 22.9). In the following century the Monosticha of Cato is an early example of Roman ethics, a father instructing his sons on what is proper for them to do in society, without any real reference to a moral code handed down from the Gods. For most Romans at the time ritual impurity resulted from violating taboos. Ritual purity could be restored by performing purification rituals, cleansings, and propitiating the Gods. By the Late Republic, though, following the excesses of the Sullan dictatorship and a re-introduction of moral thought among the elite from Greek influence, there develops a form of nostalgia for a purer form of the religio Romana. This older, purer form of the religio Romana, one that is more concerned with moral good of an individual than with the sacra publica as the primary means of binding a community with the Gods is identified with Rex Numa. Rome prospers with the aid of the Gods only when the Gods are pleased with Rome. They were pleased when Rome selected a moral and holy man like Numa to become Rex, and the Gods were pleased with Rome when Numa moved the Romans to concern themselves with holy matters and with divine law, including moral law. Some of the early laws attributed to Numa, for example, concerned disobedience to one's parents and swindling people out of their rightful property. As with the Greeks on Agamemnon and Oedipus, the anger of the Gods against one man, usually the king, could be directed on the entire city-state. This idea was reinforced at Rome with the Principate where Augustus, seen as a moral ruler who restored the cultus Deorum, ruled long and properously. The Empire came to be identified with the emperor, and thus it would suffer for the moral infractions of an emperor, as occurred with Nero.

Such ideas are found later in a description of the affliction of Caracalla. The emperor was tormented with ills, and the judgment was that he suffered divine retribution for his cruelty and mean character. No amount of worship could remove the stain of his past deeds, and the Gods were thought to have visited his afflictions on him as punishment.

"But to Antoninus (Caracalla) not even one of the Gods gave any response that conduced to healing either his body or his mind,
although he paid homage to all the more prominent ones. This showed most clearly that They regarded not his votive offerings or his
sacrifices, but only his purposes and his deeds. He received no help from Apollo Grannus, nor yet from Aesculapius or Serapis, in spite of his many supplications and his unwearying persistence. For even while abroad he sent to Them prayers, sacrifices and votive offerings, and many couriers ran hither and thither every day carrying something of this kind; and he also went to them himself, hoping to prevail by appearing in person, and did all that devotees are wont to do; but he obtained nothing that contributed to health." ~ Dio Cassius, Roman History, book 78, section 15

Ritual purity is a special need. It comes with purification rituals, propitiating sacrifices, and restitutions to those wronged. But before all else comes purity of the soul who approaches the Gods with sincerity and reverence.

"May they approach the Gods and Goddesses while pure and chaste, bringing piety, and leaving riches behind. Whosoever should do
otherwise, will be avenged upon by the Gods Themselves." ~ M. Tullius Cicero, De Legibus VIII (19)


Our thought for today is a Pythagorean sententium from Iamblichus, Protreptics 11:

"We shall venerate Divinity in a proper manner if we render the intellect that is in us pure from all vice."
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74562 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2010-03-21
Subject: Re: How can I find what I search?
Ave Sabine,

> In your case the words are tax and rate,

I did not know. I typed "taxes" but I found nothing except "taxes on Egyptian temples". ;o)

> For anyone, the tax rate for 2009 is here:
> http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Tax_rate_MMDCCLXII

Thank you very much.

Optime vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
A. d. XII Kalendas Apriles P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74563 From: albmd323232 Date: 2010-03-21
Subject: Purchasing Roman-style sculptures
Salvete,

Im thinking about decorating my apartment with some Roman-style sculptures, and I came across a website that is listed below. Has purchased any sculptures from there or from other websites? While some of the objects look a bit cheesy, others look decent.

http://www.ancientsculpturegallery.com/ancientgreek.html

Valete,
D. Claudius Aquilius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74564 From: C.Maria Caeca Date: 2010-03-21
Subject: Re: Purchasing Roman-style sculptures
C. Maria Caeca D. Claudio Acquilio sal,

Unfortunately, I don't have her link handy, but our own L. Julia Aquila has lovely statues for sale, and I'm sure, or one of her satisfied customers, can provide you with the link to her site. I haven't seen the site you mention, but I shall take a look, on the theory that more choices are always good.

Vale bene!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74565 From: GAIUS MARCIUS CRISPUS Date: 2010-03-21
Subject: Gaius Marcius Crispus - probable absence
Salvete omnes

I need to let you know that I may be absent from the site in the next
few days.

My Mother, who celebrates her 97th birthday today, has been rushed into
hospital with a number of problems and is in acute medical unit.

I may or may not be around to respond to messages,

Valete optime
Crispus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74566 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2010-03-21
Subject: Re: Purchasing Roman-style sculptures
Iulia Mariae Caecae Claudio Aquilio s.p.d

Thank you Maria!

I will be adding new statues(including a new Iuppiter and Apollo) so if there is something you do not see ask, esp. in the custom statues.

On flickr in the Romani Emporium: http://www.flickrDOTcom/photos/l_j_a/collections/72157622110361077/
Classical Statuary for Romans
http://www.flickrDOTcom/photos/l_j_a/sets/72157622074726511/
Custom Classical Roman Statues
http://www.flickrDOTcom/photos/l_j_a/sets/72157622235170210/

At http://thelastenchantmentDOTcom/ site:
http://thelastenchantmentDOTcom/RomanGreekStatues.html
http://thelastenchantmentDOTcom/CustomStatues.html

Yahoo does strange things to links so simply replace the DOT with a period/dot before placing it in your browser.

Hope this helps... feel free to email me if you have any questions:)

Julia


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "C.Maria Caeca" <c.mariacaeca@...> wrote:
>
> C. Maria Caeca D. Claudio Acquilio sal,
>
> Unfortunately, I don't have her link handy, but our own L. Julia Aquila has lovely statues for sale, and I'm sure, or one of her satisfied customers, can provide you with the link to her site. I haven't seen the site you mention, but I shall take a look, on the theory that more choices are always good.
>
> Vale bene!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74567 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2010-03-21
Subject: Re: Gaius Marcius Crispus - probable absence
Iulia Aquila Marci Crispii S.P.D.

I will remember you and your Mater in my heart and prayers,

Cura ut valeas,

Julia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "GAIUS MARCIUS CRISPUS" <jbshr1pwa@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete omnes
>
> I need to let you know that I may be absent from the site in the next
> few days.
>
> My Mother, who celebrates her 97th birthday today, has been rushed into
> hospital with a number of problems and is in acute medical unit.
>
> I may or may not be around to respond to messages,
>
> Valete optime
> Crispus
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74568 From: C.Maria Caeca Date: 2010-03-21
Subject: Re: Gaius Marcius Crispus - probable absence
C. Maria Caeca C. Marcio Crispo sal,

My best wishes for you mother and your entire family, especially at this difficult time.

Vale bene,

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74569 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2010-03-21
Subject: Re: How can I find what I search?
Iulia Petronio sal,

Amice, I use the labyrinth known as google and add the words "Nova Roma" to my quest:)

Here is what I found for you, I do hope this is what you were looking for:
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Tax_rate_MMDCCLXII

Vale optime,

Julia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Petronius Dexter" <jfarnoud94@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete,
>
> How can I find the list of the annual 2009 taxes? I searched through the civic life pages, I found nothing, so I searched through the Provinces pages, I found nothing... this wiki NR web site is so mysterious that a mother hen could not find her chicks. Does we have the handbook of Sherlock Holmes to find any main and daily informations?
>
> We have links on the main page to many trivial matters but nothing about the first things which a new citizen has to know. Even if I click on the link "civic life" I found nothing about the amounts of the last yearly taxes neither on the link "provinces"... who can help Theseus in this labyrinth?
>
> Optime valete.
>
> --
> C. Petronius Dexter
> Arcoiali scribebat
> a.d. XII Kalendas Apriles. P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74570 From: Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator Date: 2010-03-21
Subject: Re: Gaius Marcius Crispus - probable absence
Salve Crispus;

You have my complete sympathy and empathy...

Vale - Venator
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74571 From: C.Maria Caeca Date: 2010-03-21
Subject: Re: How can I find what I search?
C. Maria Caeca L. Juliae Aquilae sal,

Ah, Julia! what a brilliant idea! I should have thought of doing that! I'll just file that away for future reference, since I *know* I'll need it, probably the next time I enter the WIKI labyrinth!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74572 From: GAIUS MARCIUS CRISPUS Date: 2010-03-21
Subject: Gaius Marcius Crispus - probable absence
Salvete omnes

My thanks to those who have sent their good wishes at this time.

My Mother has died. She did not suffer or linger.

Should anyone wish to respond to me, I would welcome personal emails to:

jbshr1pwa@...

rather than to the main list.

Valete omnes
Crispus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74573 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-03-22
Subject: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus cultoribus Deorum, Quiritibus et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit: Diis bene iuvantibus sumus.

Hodie est ante diem XI Kalendas Apriles; haec dies nefastus est: Dies violae; arbor Attis intrat.

"I will sing of Attys, the Son of Rhea, not with the clang of bells nor with the flute or with the bellowing of the Kouretes of Ida, but
I will tune it to the muse of Phoebus' lyre. All hail! All hail! As Pan, as Bacchus, as Good Shepherd of the shining stars." ~ Hippolytus
of Rome, Refutatio Omnium Haeresium 9.9

Festival of Attys

On the Ides of March each year, the Canophori walked in procession carrying reeds cut by the banks of the River Almo. These reeds
represented the place where Attys was abandoned as an infant, and discovered by the Magna Mater, and also symbolized the place of his tryst with a nymph, and where he castrated himself in a fit of madness. The priest of Cybele led a six year old bull who was
sacrificed on behalf of the fertility of mountain pastures. Thus began a period of penitence, a "holy week" of sorts, commemorating
the myth of Attys and Cybele.

First established by Claudius, the dendrophori tracing their founding to his birthday (1 August), on 22 March this fraternity of
woodcutters walked in procession to the Palatine Temple of Mater Ideae Magna Deorum. They carried a pine tree to represent the one
beneath which had taken place the castration of Attys. The pine was cut before the night ended, and a ram was sacrificed in such manner as its blood washed upon the roots of the tree. This took place in a grove sacred to Cybele that was outside Rome. Affixed to the tree was an image of Attys. The procession was conducted as though it were his funeral; the dendrophori chanted dirges as others would join in wailing for the dying and resurrecting God of Spring. The "tree of Attys entered the City" (arbor Attis intrat) decorated with violets (dies violae) as in myth violets were said to have sprung up as the blood of Attys fell onto the ground. The decorated Pine tree remained on display in the sanctuary of Cybele as though a corpse for three days.


Explaining the Myth

Ritual and myth often inform one another. Below we have three ancient philosophers explaining the rituals of today in terms of explaining the myth. They are arranged chronologically, beginning with Plotinus and his student Porphyry from the second century, and finally with Sallustius who was a companion of Julianus the Blessed in the middle of the fourth century.

"This, I think, is why the doctors of old, teaching through symbols and mystic representations, exhibit the ancient Hermes with the
generative organ always in active posture; this is to convey that the generator of things of sense is the Intellectual Reason Principle:
the sterility of Matter, eternally unmoved, is indicated by the eunuchs surrounding it in its representation as the All-Mother.

"This too exalting title is conferred upon it in order to indicate that it is the source of things in the sense of being their underlie:
it is an approximate name chosen for a general conception; there is no intention of suggesting a complete parallel with motherhood to
those not satisfied with a surface impression but needing a precisely true presentment; by a remote symbolism, the nearest they could find, they indicate that Matter is sterile, not female to full effect, female in receptivity only, not in pregnancy: this they accomplish by
exhibiting Matter as approached by what is neither female nor effectively male, but castrated of that impregnating power which belongs only to the unchangeably masculine." ~ Plotinus, Enneads 3.6.19


"Attis, too, and Adonis are related to the analogy of fruits. Attis is the symbol of the blossoms which appear early in the spring, and
fall off before the complete fertilization; whence they further attributed castration to him, from the fruits not having attained to
seminal perfection: but Adonis was the symbol of the cutting of the perfect fruits." ~ Porphyry, On Images fragment 7


"Now the Mother of the Gods is the principle that generates life; that is why she is called Mother. Attis is the creator of all things which are born and die; that is why he is said to have been found by the river Gallus. For Gallus signifies the Galaxy, or Milky Way, the point at which a body subject to passion begins. Now as the primary Gods make perfect the secondary, the Mother loves Attis and gives him celestial powers. That is what the cap means. Attis loves a nymph: the nymphs preside over generation, since all that is generated is fluid. But since the process of generation must be stopped somewhere, and not allowed to generate something worse than the worst, the creator who makes these things casts away his generative powers into the creation and is joined to the Gods again. . . .

"And at first we ourselves, having fallen from heaven and living with the nymph, are in despondency, and abstain from corn and all rich and unclean food, for both are hostile to the soul. Then comes the cutting of the tree and the fast, as though we also were cutting off the further process of generation. After that the feeding on milk, as though we were being born again; after which come rejoicings and garlands and, as it were, a return up to the Gods.

"The season of the ritual is evidence to the truth of these explanations. The rites are performed about the Vernal equinox, when the fruits of the earth are ceasing to be produced, and day is becoming longer than night, which applies well to spirits rising higher. (At least, the other equinox is in mythology the time of the rape of Kore, which is the descent of the souls.)

"May these explanations of the myths find favour in the eyes of the Gods themselves and the souls of those who wrote the myths." ~ Sallustius, On the Gods and the World 4


Today's thought is from Marcus Aurelius, Meditations 10.8:

"Claim thy entitlement when thou hast assumed these names - good, decent, truthful; in mind clear, cooperative, and independent;
rational, a man of equanimity, and magnanimous, and take care that thou dost not swap these for other names."
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74574 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-22
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Cato omnibus in foro SPD

Salvete!

There are several legends about Attis, but none which claim he rose from the dead. Attis was not a "resurrected God of Spring"; he was transformed into a pine tree. Cybele falls in love with Attis, who prefers a nymph. Cybele kills the nymph; Attis goes crazy and castrates himself; from his blood, flowers grow out of the
ground, and he turns into a pine tree:

"Pines, high-girdled, in a leafy crest, the favourite of the Gods' Great Mother, since in this tree Attis Cybeleius doffed his human shape and stiffened in its trunk." - Ovid, Metamorphoses 10.103

OR he was killed by a wild boar sent by Zeus; OR he was killed by Cybele in the form of a jealous rival.

"When he had grown up, Attis was sent by his relatives to Pessinos, that he might wed the king's daughter. The marriage-song was being sung, when Agdistis appeared, and Attis went mad and cut off his genitals, as also did he who was giving him his daughter in marriage." - Pausanias, Guide to Greece 7.19.11

Nor is there any length of time given between his death and his re-creation as a tree; nor is there a length of time (a 'holy week" of any sort) given for the re-enacted mourning over his death. And he was not brought back to life in any form of his own power, but by Cybele or Zeus (depending on which version you read).

"...and Attis went mad and cut off his genitals, as also did he who was giving him his daughter in marriage. But Agdistis repented of what he had done to Attis, and persuaded Zeus to grant that the body of Attis should neither rot at all nor decay." - Pausanias, Guide to Greece 7.19.9-12


"A woodland Phrygian boy, the gorgeous Attis, conquered the towered goddess with pure love. She wanted to keep him as her shrine's guardian, and said, 'Desire to be a boy always.' He promised what was asked and declared, 'If I lie, let the Venus I cheat with be my last.' He cheats, and in the Nympha Sagaritis stops being what he was: the goddess' wrath punished him. She slashes the tree and
cuts the Naiad down. The Naiad dies: her fate was the tree's. He goes mad, and imagines that the bedroom roof is falling and bolts to Dindymus' heights. He cries, 'Away torches!', 'Away whips!', and often swears the Palestine goddesses have him. He even hacked his body with a jagged stone, and dragged his long hair
in squalid dirt, shouting, 'I deserved it; my blood is the penalty. Ah, death to the parts which have ruined me!' 'Ah, death to them!' he said, and cropped his groin's weight. Suddenly no signs of manhood remained. His madness became a model: soft-skinned acolytes toss their hair and cut their worthless organs." - Ovid, Fasti 4.222

There is a reason that the cult of Cybele and Attis was basically suppressed until the time of Claudius; its practices (self-mutilation, frenzies, etc.) were repugnant to the Romans and it was not until the time of Claudius that Roman citizens were allowed to be practitioners.

Valete,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74575 From: Robert Date: 2010-03-22
Subject: Test
For the consul.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74576 From: publiusalbucius Date: 2010-03-22
Subject: Re: Test
Sullae sen. s.d.

Well received, tnx.

Vale,


Albucius cos.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" <l_cornelius_sulla@...> wrote:
>
> For the consul.
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74577 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-03-22
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Maior Quiritibus spd;
I'm reposting a post from January, that discusses the scholarship of who Attis/Adonis is & the myth behind him & all Near Eastern dying rising gods too Jesus included.

Salvete Piscine Omnesque;
Apropos Venus and Adonis. Earlier this fall I was researching the mysteries of
Cybele and Atthis and reading Munn's book.

The Mother of the Gods
Mark Henderson Munn. (2006). University of California Press

He's a classicist familiar with semitic languages and Near Eastern scholarship
and he traces Venus/Cybele and Attis/Adonis right back to Kubaba of Carchemish.

Near Eastern kingship was based on worship of the powerful goddess with the king
being her consort and lying with her to ensure the wellbeing of the state and
fruitfulness. The sacred sex was performed in a garden sacred to the goddess and
the king was poetically called her 'shepherd.' Eventually the king would die,
and there would be mass ritual mourning: the mourning for Adonis/Attis.

And he would be reborn, reincarnated. into another king to ensure the state's
wellbeing and fertility.

So this is what the Hebrew Song of Songs is about, the Garden of Eden is the
garden of the goddess, the king's garden where sacred sex took place, the entire
importance of shepheard imagery in Near Eastern religion. This is all
well-established scholarship about Near Eastern kingship. Munn makes the
connection to Greek and Roman religion, brilliantly.

As to the Roman cult of Cybele's 'supression' there was no such thing. Magna Mater's cultus was incredibly popular for centuries and had to be forcibly supressed in the Christian 4th Century C.E.

Romans viewed the Galli, as contrary to romanitas, but they were very popular, Catullus wrote about them & the transvestite priests lived in the Phrygianum, St. Peter's is built on top of it today. The Vatican, is named after their practice of fortunetelling - vaticanare.

Magna Mater is quite rightly the protectess of Rome and I look forward to this
years Megalesia to give this goddess her due!
bene valete in pacem Soli
Maior



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> Cato omnibus in foro SPD
>
> Salvete!
>
> There are several legends about Attis, but none which claim he rose from the dead. Attis was not a "resurrected God of Spring"; he was transformed into a pine tree. Cybele falls in love with Attis, who prefers a nymph. Cybele kills the nymph; Attis goes crazy and castrates himself; from his blood, flowers grow out of the
> ground, and he turns into a pine tree:
>
> "Pines, high-girdled, in a leafy crest, the favourite of the Gods' Great Mother, since in this tree Attis Cybeleius doffed his human shape and stiffened in its trunk." - Ovid, Metamorphoses 10.103
>
> OR he was killed by a wild boar sent by Zeus; OR he was killed by Cybele in the form of a jealous rival.
>
> "When he had grown up, Attis was sent by his relatives to Pessinos, that he might wed the king's daughter. The marriage-song was being sung, when Agdistis appeared, and Attis went mad and cut off his genitals, as also did he who was giving him his daughter in marriage." - Pausanias, Guide to Greece 7.19.11
>
> Nor is there any length of time given between his death and his re-creation as a tree; nor is there a length of time (a 'holy week" of any sort) given for the re-enacted mourning over his death. And he was not brought back to life in any form of his own power, but by Cybele or Zeus (depending on which version you read).
>
> "...and Attis went mad and cut off his genitals, as also did he who was giving him his daughter in marriage. But Agdistis repented of what he had done to Attis, and persuaded Zeus to grant that the body of Attis should neither rot at all nor decay." - Pausanias, Guide to Greece 7.19.9-12
>
>
> "A woodland Phrygian boy, the gorgeous Attis, conquered the towered goddess with pure love. She wanted to keep him as her shrine's guardian, and said, 'Desire to be a boy always.' He promised what was asked and declared, 'If I lie, let the Venus I cheat with be my last.' He cheats, and in the Nympha Sagaritis stops being what he was: the goddess' wrath punished him. She slashes the tree and
> cuts the Naiad down. The Naiad dies: her fate was the tree's. He goes mad, and imagines that the bedroom roof is falling and bolts to Dindymus' heights. He cries, 'Away torches!', 'Away whips!', and often swears the Palestine goddesses have him. He even hacked his body with a jagged stone, and dragged his long hair
> in squalid dirt, shouting, 'I deserved it; my blood is the penalty. Ah, death to the parts which have ruined me!' 'Ah, death to them!' he said, and cropped his groin's weight. Suddenly no signs of manhood remained. His madness became a model: soft-skinned acolytes toss their hair and cut their worthless organs." - Ovid, Fasti 4.222
>
> There is a reason that the cult of Cybele and Attis was basically suppressed until the time of Claudius; its practices (self-mutilation, frenzies, etc.) were repugnant to the Romans and it was not until the time of Claudius that Roman citizens were allowed to be practitioners.
>
> Valete,
>
> Cato
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74578 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-23
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Cato Maiori omnibusque in foro SPD

The vast - even overwhelming - majority of accredited contemporary academic scholarship accepts that the supposed links - first posited by Sir James Frazer in his "The Golden Bough" in AD 1906 - between the so-called "mystery religions" and Christianity are completely manufactured by his early 20th-century imagination.

What we know of these mystery religions - specifically those of Attis and Mithras - are known almost entirely from Christian sources repudiating them; the actual scholars of these myths recognize that, contrary to the imagined and wishful thinking of those desperate to "prove" their validity in some sort of contrast to Christian sources, much of the contemplative and esoteric foundations of the mystery cults were derived *from* Christianity because of its growing popularity and great appeal to the masses of the people.

The priesthoods of Cybele were generally forbidden to Roman citizens until the time of the emperor Claudius as lewd and unnatural and contrary to the majestic and solemn rites due to the Roman gods - this is historical fact.

We are a republic, not a principate, and our devotion should be always to the Roman gods Who show Their power in protection of the Respublica, not scandalous imports from barbaric peoples encouraged by the depravity and baseness of a people enslaved to an emperor.

Valete,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74579 From: Marcus Valerius Corvus Date: 2010-03-23
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
sancta verba, Cato! Acer et summae eruditionis.
vale



________________________________
Da: Cato <catoinnyc@...>
A: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Inviato: Mar 23 marzo 2010, 09:16:31
Oggetto: [Nova-Roma] Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys

Cato Maiori omnibusque in foro SPD

The vast - even overwhelming - majority of accredited contemporary academic scholarship accepts that the supposed links - first posited by Sir James Frazer in his "The Golden Bough" in AD 1906 - between the so-called "mystery religions" and Christianity are completely manufactured by his early 20th-century imagination.

What we know of these mystery religions - specifically those of Attis and Mithras - are known almost entirely from Christian sources repudiating them; the actual scholars of these myths recognize that, contrary to the imagined and wishful thinking of those desperate to "prove" their validity in some sort of contrast to Christian sources, much of the contemplative and esoteric foundations of the mystery cults were derived *from* Christianity because of its growing popularity and great appeal to the masses of the people.

The priesthoods of Cybele were generally forbidden to Roman citizens until the time of the emperor Claudius as lewd and unnatural and contrary to the majestic and solemn rites due to the Roman gods - this is historical fact.

We are a republic, not a principate, and our devotion should be always to the Roman gods Who show Their power in protection of the Respublica, not scandalous imports from barbaric peoples encouraged by the depravity and baseness of a people enslaved to an emperor.

Valete,

Cato






------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74580 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-03-23
Subject: a. d. X Kalendas Apriles: TUBILUSTRiUM, Neria of Mars
M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus Quiritibus, culoribus Deorum et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit: Deis immortlibus nobis laetitiam det.

Hodie est ante diem X Kalendas Apriles; haec dies nefastus piaculum est: Tubilustrium; Aries incipit exoriri, pluvius dies, interdum ninguit.

"The fifth day exhorts us to purify the blaring trumpets and make sacrifice to the potent Goddess." ~ Ovidius Naso, Fasti 3.849-850

Mourning for Attys continues while today is also the fifth and last day of the Minervalia. Ovid likewise mentions "a sacrifice for the potent Goddess," by which he refers to Neria of Mars.


TUBILUSTRIUM

"The Tubilustrium is named from the fact that on this day the trumpets (tubae) used in ceremonies are purified in Hall of
Shoemakers (Atrium Sutorium)." ~ Varro, Lingua Latina 6.14

The tubae mentioned here were the instruments used primarily in military and religious ceremonies. They were a long straight tube of
brass with a bell mouth. They differed from the instruments played by the liticines, these musicians playing a lituus or tuba incurva,
and differed also from those used for funerals by the siticines (Gellius, Noctes Atticae 20.2). They also differed from the tibia
that was typically used during auspicia and other religious ceremonies.

There is a second Tubilustrium on 23 May, and both are followed the next day by an annotation: QRCF. The twenty-fourth of March, and twenty-fourth of May, were dates on which the Rex traditionally assembled the Comitia Curiata. This ceremony supposedly went back to the time of Romulus who first organized the City under the curiones. Originally the Comitia Curiata served the same function as did the later Comitia Centuriata in assembling an army. By the Late Republic the Comitia Curiata only heard wills and adoptions. The Tubilustrium, then, was a ceremonial purification of the tubae used to call the Comitia Curiata to assemble. The purification entailed the sacrifice of a lamb by the Rex Sacrorum.

In the Fasti Praeneste is a curious note by Verrius. In conjunction with the Tubilustrium Verrius mentions the lituus of Romulus that was recovered from the ruins on the Palatine Hill following the Gallic sack of 390 BCE. This was apparently the same lituus mentioned by Cicero (De Div. 1.17.30). The annotation seems to confuse the musical instrument known as a lituus with the lituus or clava of an augur. What had been found on the Palatine was an augur's lituus, and from the location of its discovery it was assumed to have been the one used by Romulus when "he inaugurated the City." The Rex Sacrorum stood in for Romulus when the Curiones met. Thus it could have been, though we could never know, that the lituus of Romulus was somehow used in the purification ceremony of the Tubilustrium.


NERIA OF MARS

"Prayers to the immortal Gods, which are offered according to the Roman ritual, are set forth in the books of the priests of the Roman
People, as well as in many ancient books of prayers. In these we find 'Lua, of Saturn; Salacia, of Neptunus; Hora, of Quinius; the Virites of Quirinus; Maia of Vulcanus; Heries of Juno; Moles of Mars; and Nerio of Mars.' ...

"Furthermore, that word, whether it is Nerio or Nerienes, is Sabine and signifies valour and courage. Â… Therefore Nerio designates the strength and power of Mars and a certain majesty of the War God. Plautus, however, in the Truculentus (515) says that Nerio is the
wife of Mars, and puts the statement into the mouth of a soldier, in the following line:

'Mars, coming home, greets His wife Nerio.'

"... But whoever will read the third book of the Annales of Gnaeus Gellius will find that this passage shows learning, rather than a
comic spirit; for there it is written that Hersilia (Sabine wife of Romulus), when she pleaded with Titus Tatius and begged for peace
prayed in these words:

'Neria of Mars, I beseech Thee give us peace; I beseech Thee that it be permitted us to enjoy lasting and happy marriages, since it was by Thy lord's advice that in like manner they carried off us maidens, that from us they might raise up children for themselves and their
people, and descendants for their country.'

"In addition to Plautus, too, and Gellius, Licinius Imbrex, an early writer of comedies, in the play entitled Neaera, wrote as follows:

'Neaera I'd not wish to have Thee called; Neriene rather, since Thou art wife to Mars.'

"... Ennius also, in this verse from the first book of his Annales (104):

'Neriene of Mars and Here.'

"... And I do not think that I ought to pass by this either, whatever it amounts
to, which I find written in the Commentary of Servius Claudius that Nerio is the equivalent of Neirio, meaning without anger (ne ira)
and with calmness, so that in using that name we pray that Mars may become mild and calm; ..." ~ Aulus Gellius, Noctes Atticae 13.23


Today's thought is from Epicurus, Vatican Saying 74:

"In a philosophical dispute, he gains most who is defeated, since he learns the most."
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74581 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2010-03-23
Subject: Senate March 2763 session.
C. Petronius Dexter tribunus Plebis omnibus Quiritibus s.p.d.,

The law allows to the tribunes Plebis to publish into the ML the Senate callings. No law, in other hand, forgot the consul himself to do that. But, I think even if the consul gave first the information and published it on the ML, as tribune Plebis I had to inform you citizens. Today, I know, it is a NP dies, but it is not prohibited to a tribune Plebis in a such day giving information nor citizens hearing and commenting news.

--------------
A. Senate Session.
Beginning: 14:00 hour, a.d. XII Kal. Apr. (March 21) ; end: sunset a.d. IV Kal. Apr. (March. 29. The session will be closed on NP dies a.d. XI and X Kal. Apr. (March 22 and 23) and reopened at Rome time dawn on 24th (a.d. IX Kal. Apr.).

B. Contio.
Beginning: 15:00 hour, a.d. XII Kal. Apr. (March 21) ; end: 15:00 hour, a.d. VI Kal. Apr. (Mar. 27)

C. Vote.
Beginning: 16:30 hour, a.d. VI Kal. Feb. (Mar. 27); end: 16:30 hour, a.d. IV Kal. Apr. (March. 29)

The agenda of the March 2673 session is the following one:

Item I - Provinces - Definition and delineation - European provinces - Oblast Kaliningrad - amendment
(discussion + vote)

Item II - Provinces - Definition and delineation - Oceania Asia and Latin America provinces
(discussion + vote)

Item III - Emergency Disaster fund - deletion
(discussion + vote)

Item IV - Resignation of aedilis and governor Germaniae T. Flavius Aquila
(information)

Item V - Aedilis curulis - appointment - senatus consultum ultimum
(discussion + vote)

Item VI - Coming comitia centuriata - Religious paragraph (ex. "Blasphemy clause")
(information and advice)

Item VII - Coming comitia centuriata - Tribunician entry in office
(information and advice)

Item VIII - Coming comitia centuriata - Adaptation of the number of our public officers to our citizenry - Modification of the number of minor magistrates.
(information and advice)

Item IX - Writing of by-laws for NR Inc. non profit making corporation.
(information)

Item X - The anger of the gods - divine negative signs reported by PM Moravius - grounds - possible measures.
(discussion)

Item XI - Context of the budget proposal.
(information)

Item XII - Schedule Budget-Taxes-Census.
(information)

Item XIII- Budget main lines.
(discussion + vote)

Item XIV- Budget 2763/2010.
(discussion + vote).

----------------------------

Thanks for your attention, citizens.

Optime valete.

--
C. Petronius Dexter
Tribunus Plebis Arcoiali scribebat
A. d. X Kalendas Apriles P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74582 From: Marcus Valerius Corvus Date: 2010-03-23
Subject: Re: novus civis
Tullia soavissima,
inter cultores romanitatis qualis pisces in pelago sum. Scientiam meam non profundam in latino sermone parcete et gaudentes omnes colloquia agimus, Sempiterni Dii benevolentibus!
omnia bona tibi
m.v.c.



________________________________
Da: A. Tullia Scholastica <fororom@...>
A: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Inviato: Dom 21 marzo 2010, 02:35:53
Oggetto: Re: [Nova-Roma] novus civis

>
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica M. Valerio Corvo S.P.D.
>
> Gratissimus es nobis (Latinistis quidem)! Speramus te vitam tuam cum
> civibus Novae Romae magnopere fructurum esse! Roma uno die aedificata non
> erat, nec Nova Roma, sed simus semina gentis resurgentis, et Latinae civitatis
> condamus fundamina, sicut in hymno Provinciae dicit.
>
> Scisne nos forum Latinum et sodalitatem Latinitatis habere?
>
> Vale!
>
>
> Omnibus civibus Novae Romae salutem, sodalibus quibus animae, virtutis et
> fidei socius et particeps sum. Romanam claritatem, Diis iuvantibus, fortitudo
> nostra iucunde renovare possit.
> Marcus Valerius Corvus domo Romae
>
> britannico sermone: Hi to all citizens of Nova Roma, who soul, virtue and
> trust I' parteciping.
> May our strengh, with help of Gods, renew the greatness of Rome and enjoy for
> it
> M V C
>
>
>
>
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74583 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-03-23
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
M. Moravius Catone s. p. d.

Scripsisti:

"We are a republic, not a principate, and our devotion should be always to the Roman gods Who show Their power in protection of the Respublica, not scandalous imports from barbaric peoples encouraged by the depravity and baseness of a people enslaved to an emperor."

You mean by that traditions like Christianity, as it was a scandalously atheistic tradition of a barbarous, enslaved people?

You refer to Christian historians, citing Christian sources who tried to repudiate all other religious traditions. Well, that is their opinion. Ancient philosophers viewed the mystery religions quite differently than did those Christian sources. Porphyry, for example, writing about a passage in Homer, refers to Mithraism in his explanation.

"Thus also the Persians, mystically signifying the descent of souls into the sublunary regions, and their way back from it, initiate the mystic in a place which they name the grotto." ~ Porphyry, On the Cave of the Nymphs 2 (6)

Cato, I think your first problem is that you simply do not understand myth or its instructive role. Perhaps this is so because you take the myths and fantasies of your own tradition as historical rather than in the manner they were intended to be used by the ancients. Porphyry speaks on Mithras as a symbol of the descent of all souls and their subsequent release from the material world so that they may arise once more to the heavens to live among the Gods from Whom they come. And Sallustius, speaking on Attys, said, "The rites are performed about the Vernal equinox, . . . which applies well to spirits rising higher," because He is a "resurrected God of Spring" who symbolizes the resurrection of all souls. You are confusing the symbolism of Attys as though it were some historical tale to refute, rather than a mystery behind which a truth is to be found.

The fact is that there were several myths in Rome and the Mediterranean world on men who, through dying and resurrecting, or "born again," were resurgent not as men but as gods, for all men and women are Sons and Daughters of the Gods, and their natural state is to live among the Gods. These myths went back far earlier than the Christians myths based on them. Osiris was one of the earliest myths of this nature, who, in spite of his death and disarticulation, is raised up once more by the Divine Mother, Isis, to become Judge of the Living and the Dead, offering eternal life among the Gods to those deserving and utter destruction to those unworthy. One could travel to India, too, where tales tell of a God who descended into human form, not once but twice. Pales of northern Africa was nailed to a cross, like Orpheus, to symbolize not the death of His body, but the imprisonment of the soul into a physical form composed of the four elements, in the material world of generation, designated by the four cardinal directions, as with a Greek cross, or else with another form of cross, as seen in western traditions, that represents the world of generation by its phallic symbolism. Attys castrates himself, as Sallustius says, to represent his divorce from the world of generation, just as Osiris, when restored, is missing His genitilia to represent that He had transcended from the world of generation. The mysteries of Hercules likewise showed Him, as a man, tied stretched out on the fiery wheel, as though on a cross, that represented the world of generation as the Zodiac (the wheel). The fire consumes His body, purifies His soul, as it were, by releasing it from its physical form so that it may return to its rightful place among the Gods. One may likewise discuss Adonis, Tammuz, and several other, similar deities, all with different versions of the perennial myth and all relating the same mystery.

As Celsus pointed out centuries ago that there is nothing new to us in your myths. A divine soul, as all men and women have, descends to the earth, the world of the material and of generation. Thus is he born to a virgin mother, just as Isis was a virgin mother, and Rhea Silva, and others of myth, including the mother of Adonis who was said to have been born in Bethlehem, in the very grotto that Christians later claimed as the birthplace of your Jesus. Who said so? Jerome, who lived in Bethlehem and who wrote his Latin version of the Bible, the Vulgate, there. The divine soul is the nexus, represented as a mummy in a tomb, the tomb being the physical form. Birth into the physical world is a kind of death for the spirit within the soul. And thus, when the body dies is the soul lifted up once more and the spirit is reborn. Even your Jesus is said to have spoken on this, that one must be born a second time, meaning death of the physical body, before it could return to the spiritual realm of the Gods in the heavens, the northern portion of the heavens, where the Council of the Gods met, according to your Book of Psalms.

Christians tried to repudiate the traditions of others in order to claim some uniqueness for their own tradition, when there is nothing at all unique in its myths or its symbolism. Christians tried to conceal Adonis by taking over His grotto as the site where mythical Jesus was born, as opposed to the birthplace of any historical Jesus. They took the symbol of the cross just as the Orphics had used it long before any Christians, and took the symbol of the purified soul with Jesus emerging from the Cave of the Nymphs. They took myths, wisdom sayings, symbols, parables, sacraments, and festivals all from our earlier traditions, just in the same manner as they took over and converted temples for their own use. They tried to distort what the philosophers wrote, or else destroyed ancient texts, only to discover with amazement centuries later just how closely Christianity was with the mystery religions. Christians today are confused, unable to connect with the mysteries, because for centuries they have distorted their own origins, obscured the original meaning of their myths and their symbolism in order to hide their origin among the mystery religions rather than apart from them.

Instead of trying so often to dispute the religious traditions of others, Cato, I would suggest that you look more closely into your own traditions. You might, for example, read the Gospel of Philip to find another take on Plato's Cave, or on Porphyry's explanation of the Cave of the Nymphs in Homer, or of the grotto of Adonis, the rock from which Mithras emerges, for while those explanations are on the release from the Cave, Philip speaks of the marriage chamber in which the divine soul first enters into the material world. You might try also the Hermetica as a contemporary source to see how people of the time thought about the descent and resurgence of the soul, as well as the use of myth, in a simpler form, to explain some of the mysteries. But mostly you need to re-evaluate the myths of your tradition as they are not about one man, Jesus, but about every man and every woman, as we are all nailed to the cross of materiality, will all be reborn a second time upon the death of the body, some to rise again and ascend into the heavens, to become Gods once more and sit at the right hand of Pater Jupiter. But, as Plato told us, others shall delude themselves in darkness, preferring to remain in the cave, never seeing the Light, and doomed thereby to reincarnation into material form due to their obstinant ignorance.



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> Cato Maiori omnibusque in foro SPD
>
> The vast - even overwhelming - majority of accredited contemporary academic scholarship accepts that the supposed links - first posited by Sir James Frazer in his "The Golden Bough" in AD 1906 - between the so-called "mystery religions" and Christianity are completely manufactured by his early 20th-century imagination.
>
> What we know of these mystery religions - specifically those of Attis and Mithras - are known almost entirely from Christian sources repudiating them; the actual scholars of these myths recognize that, contrary to the imagined and wishful thinking of those desperate to "prove" their validity in some sort of contrast to Christian sources, much of the contemplative and esoteric foundations of the mystery cults were derived *from* Christianity because of its growing popularity and great appeal to the masses of the people.
>
> The priesthoods of Cybele were generally forbidden to Roman citizens until the time of the emperor Claudius as lewd and unnatural and contrary to the majestic and solemn rites due to the Roman gods - this is historical fact.
>
> We are a republic, not a principate, and our devotion should be always to the Roman gods Who show Their power in protection of the Respublica, not scandalous imports from barbaric peoples encouraged by the depravity and baseness of a people enslaved to an emperor.
>
> Valete,
>
> Cato
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74584 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-23
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Cato Piscino sal.

Unfortunately, your analogy does not hold up in the face of the historical record.

"They [Christians] asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food--but ordinary and innocent food." - Pliny, Letter to Trajan, c. AD 112

compare that to:

"... the Archigallus or highpriest drew blood from his arms and presented it as an offering. Nor was he alone in making this bloody sacrifice. Stirred by the wild barbaric music of clashing cymbals, rumbling drums, droning horns, and screaming flutes, the inferior clergy whirled about in the dance with waggling heads and streaming hair, until, rapt into a frenzy of excitement and insensible to pain, they gashed their bodies with potsherds or slashed them with knives in order to bespatter the altar and the sacred tree with their flowing blood."

As for the rest, Piscine, I am certainly not confused; you simply have to accept that linking these death-resurrection myths all together as if they represented the same things either in their particulars or generalities is misleading, inaccurate, and generally discarded by current scholarship. A whole wall-o-text doesn't change that.

I suggest you read Dr. G. Sherman's "Was Attis at Rome under The Republic" for starters, and work your way forward from there.

Vale,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74585 From: Marcus Valerius Corvus Date: 2010-03-23
Subject: De imperii Romani fine
Usum est finem Imperii Romani in parte occidentale considerare anno 1229 ab Urbe condita aliter 476 post Christum natum.
Doctus byzantius quidam, Marcellinus Illiricus, primus annum 1229 aUc indicavit et postea omnes Historici acceperunt rem.
Sed tamen, novis oculis, facta et considerationes facere possumus.
Quis aut quid gloriosissimam Antiquam Romam certe et definite necavit?
Teodosius, edictis impiis suis anno 1144/391 quibus templa claudit et sacrum ignem Vestae extinxit?
Aut in saeculo VI p.C.n. finis consulatu extremum vulnus dedit?
Lectoribus sententia, si cludicantibus verbis meis magnanimi!
valete romani
:-)




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74586 From: publiusalbucius Date: 2010-03-23
Subject: Quaestors : addresses pls! *URGENT*
Quaestoribus electis s.d.

Please all the elected quaestors send to me, with cc. to my colleague, their private e-mail address.

Except mistake, are concerned, by alphabetical order:

Arria Carina A.
Annaeus Regulus T.
Cornelius Gualterus Graecus M.
Lucilius Tutor Sex.
Maria Caeca G.
Vitellius Celsus A.

Vobis gratias et valete omnes,


P. Memmius Albucius cos.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74588 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2010-03-23
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Salvete Omnes,

Let's all sing a nice Latin song and maybe we can finally put an end to this... *laughs*

Valete,

Julia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "phoenixfyre17" <phoenixfyre17@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete omnes,
>
> Christ, I swear the same debate comes up every year on Attis. Read last year's discussion (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/62453) and lay the fucking thing to rest already...
>
> May the Magna Mater Deum Idaea be with us all,
> Titus Iulius Nero
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74589 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2010-03-23
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica scriba praetoria T. Julio Neroni omnibusque s.d.
>
> Please be advised that this is an open list, one with minors on it, and
> the word I have altered below is not appropriate here. It is in violation of
> the Yahoo ToS, to say nothing of normal moderation edicta, one of which is
> said to be in preparation. This is not the BA or any other adults-only list.
> Secondly, there is absolutely no reason for this temper tantrum in the
> peaceful discussion we have been having.
>
> Valete.
>
>
>
> Salvete omnes,
>
> Christ, I swear the same debate comes up every year on Attis. Read last
> year's discussion (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/62453) and
> lay the f..... thing to rest already...
>
> May the Magna Mater Deum Idaea be with us all,
> Titus Iulius Nero
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74590 From: phoenixfyre17 Date: 2010-03-23
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
LOL

This is why I love this place, let the insults fly!

Hardly a "temper tantrum", it just gets rather annoying that the same people have the same revolving arguments every year when they've been previously settled by those who don't bother to fling insults at one another.

But anywho, I've done my work to remind people of the resolution of this argument. Check ya laterz!

Titus Iulius Nero



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Tullia Scholastica" <fororom@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > A. Tullia Scholastica scriba praetoria T. Julio Neroni omnibusque s.d.
> >
> > Please be advised that this is an open list, one with minors on it, and
> > the word I have altered below is not appropriate here. It is in violation of
> > the Yahoo ToS, to say nothing of normal moderation edicta, one of which is
> > said to be in preparation. This is not the BA or any other adults-only list.
> > Secondly, there is absolutely no reason for this temper tantrum in the
> > peaceful discussion we have been having.
> >
> > Valete.
> >
> >
> >
> > Salvete omnes,
> >
> > Christ, I swear the same debate comes up every year on Attis. Read last
> > year's discussion (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/62453) and
> > lay the f..... thing to rest already...
> >
> > May the Magna Mater Deum Idaea be with us all,
> > Titus Iulius Nero
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74591 From: C.Maria Caeca Date: 2010-03-23
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Caeca Omnibus sal,

"99 amphorae of wine on the wall, 99 amphorae of wine ...grab one down and pass it around ...98 amphorae of wine on the wall ...:

Not as singable as the English version, but ...

Vale bene, and pas that amphora!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74592 From: Jennifer Harris Date: 2010-03-23
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Nope but it is slightly catchy!


Vale,
Aeternia

On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 1:31 PM, C.Maria Caeca <c.mariacaeca@...>wrote:

>
>
> Caeca Omnibus sal,
>
> "99 amphorae of wine on the wall, 99 amphorae of wine ...grab one down and
> pass it around ...98 amphorae of wine on the wall ...:
>
> Not as singable as the English version, but ...
>
> Vale bene, and pas that amphora!
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74593 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2010-03-23
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Salve Caeca amica,

In Latine, in Latine! "99 amphorae de vinum in parietis 99 amphorae de vinum. carpo unus de circumfere . 98 amphorae of vinum in parietis.." Not perfect but its the best I can do on a moment's notice:)

But Here is "Blowin' in the Wind in Latin" and I did not translate this:
Quot viae quae homo peragranda,
Donec grandem anima fit.
Sic, et quot maria columba velanda
Donec quiescit acta,
Sic et quot sagitt'ab arcibus volanda,
Ante pac'aeternam fore?

Chorus:
Respons'amici,
Se dedit flamini,
Responsum se dedit flamini.

Quoties homo videret alte
Ante disceret caeli?
Sic, et quoties homo audiret bene,
Ante disceret fleti?
Sic, et quoties hom'alium necaret
Ante disceremus vitae?

Chorus

Quamdiu montes possent durare
Donec ventus defricaret?
Sic, et quamdiu homo potest durare
Donec sum coron'obiret?
Sic, et quamdiu homo se advertitur
Et dissimulat non videre?

Chorus

Well, I could have posted "Stella, bBlla, Mi Mica" or "Tres Mures Caeci" but they go so quickly:)

Vale bene,

Julia



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "C.Maria Caeca" <c.mariacaeca@...> wrote:
>
> Caeca Omnibus sal,
>
> "99 amphorae of wine on the wall, 99 amphorae of wine ...grab one down and pass it around ...98 amphorae of wine on the wall ...:
>
> Not as singable as the English version, but ...
>
> Vale bene, and pas that amphora!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74594 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-03-23
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Piscinus Catone sal.

The citations you posted below have nothing to do with the myths or what they represent, and lends nothing to your earlier comments.

Let's look at something else you said earlier, as well as your statement below.

First, you wrote last time:

"We are a republic, not a principate, and our devotion should be always to the Roman gods Who show Their power in protection of the Respublica, not scandalous imports from barbaric peoples encouraged by the depravity and baseness of a people enslaved to an emperor."

The Preamble to the Constitution states, "The primary function of Nova Roma shall be to promote the study and practice of pagan Roman civilization, defined as the period from the founding of the City of Rome in 753 BCE to the removal of the altar of Victory from the Senate in 394 CE." We are a civitas, governed by a republican system, but we clearly state that we do not limit ourselves to the Republican era alone. Our Roman heritage extends well beyond the Principate.

The fact is that during the period outlined in the Constitution as our period of interest, these celebrations took place at Rome. They were not part of the religio Romana or sacra publica, not the rites I posted on or that you refer to. My post was historical information. So your comment that our devotion should be exclusively to certain Gods is totally irrelevent here. And if I believed for one moment that your harangue was about the religio Romana in Nova Roma then I would have to question your claim to accepting Jesus as your personal savior like some Depeche Mode refrain.

Secondly, in response to your comment below about "linking these death-resurrection myths all together as if they represented the same things," the Constitution responds:

"Nova Roma shall approach all other religions with a syncretistic outlook."

In my opinion it is you are who are being misleading and inaccurate by trying to claim some uniqueness for your particular myths and fables over other eastern traditions. There is nothing new, nothing different, nothing unique about your religion's myths because the authors of your texts took them from other traditions. You also do not embrace what our Constitution holds for our res publica by trying to argue against the syncretism that was natural to eastern religions of the period.

As for "G. Sherman," you mean Grant Showerman who wrote "Was Attis at Rome under the Republic" in 1900? The same G. Showerman who died in 1935, the same G. Showerman who wrote the article on syncretism for the Encyclopedia Britannica in 1911. "Naturally, the influence of Greek philosophy was very pronounced in the growth of syncretism. Plutarch and Maximus of Tyre affirmed that the gods of the different nations were only different aspects of the same deity . . . Care must be taken, however, not to place too much emphasis upon syncretism as a conscious system. The movement which it represented was not new in the 2nd century A.D. The identification of Latin with Etruscan gods in the earliest days of Rome, and then of Greek with Italian, and finally of Oriental with the Graeco-Roman, were all alike syncretistic movements, though not all conscious and reasoned. The ideal of the common people, who were unreflecting, as well as of philosophers who reflected, was 'to grasp the religious verity, one and constant, under the multiplex forms with which legend and tradition had enveloped it.'"

In addition to your lack of understanind the very nature of myth, your second problem is that you limit your conceptions to very narrowly defined meaning of words. As in your misunderstanding of the word "shall." Your problem is not that I wrote about practices in Rome under the empire, but that I described Attys in terms of resurrecting. What does resurrection mean? For in spite of what your "modern" Christian scholars had to say decades ago, the ancient authors whom I quoted speak of Attys in terms of resurrecting each spring.

On myth, you might try "Greek Myth: An Introduction" by Fritz Graf where he discusses the evolution of modern interpretations of ancient myths. Or you might try J. Campbell's "Hero of a Thousand Faces," where he places your myths beside those of Jason and other myths, or you might try his book on Western myth and his treatment of Christianity in the context of western traditions that you seem eager to divorce it from. Your Jesus is Adonis, is Attys, is Osiris, and your protests against such syncretic views is just a matter of denial of what is so obvious for others to see.



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> Cato Piscino sal.
>
> Unfortunately, your analogy does not hold up in the face of the historical record.
>
> "They [Christians] asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food--but ordinary and innocent food." - Pliny, Letter to Trajan, c. AD 112
>
> compare that to:
>
> "... the Archigallus or highpriest drew blood from his arms and presented it as an offering. Nor was he alone in making this bloody sacrifice. Stirred by the wild barbaric music of clashing cymbals, rumbling drums, droning horns, and screaming flutes, the inferior clergy whirled about in the dance with waggling heads and streaming hair, until, rapt into a frenzy of excitement and insensible to pain, they gashed their bodies with potsherds or slashed them with knives in order to bespatter the altar and the sacred tree with their flowing blood."
>
> As for the rest, Piscine, I am certainly not confused; you simply have to accept that linking these death-resurrection myths all together as if they represented the same things either in their particulars or generalities is misleading, inaccurate, and generally discarded by current scholarship. A whole wall-o-text doesn't change that.
>
> I suggest you read Dr. G. Sherman's "Was Attis at Rome under The Republic" for starters, and work your way forward from there.
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74595 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-23
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Cato Piscino sal.

Whether or not Nova Roma "approaches all religions with a syncretistic approach" means nothing academically. Nova Roma could approach you and declare you the king of Siam, and it wouldn't make it true.

If we are to gain any kind of academic respectability we must stop insisting on a reliance on awkward and discredited scholarship and instead focus on what is important to the Respublica - the sacra publica of the Roman republic.

I cannot stress enough that trying to "prove" that all religious impulses are simply mirrors of each other, in particulars and generalities, in order to provide some sort of referential support for the sacra publica (i.e., "we're just as good because we believe the same thing as X religion") is not helpful and indeed detrimental to the place of the Roman sacra publica.

The sacra publica are not made worthy because they are a mirror of anything else or in contrast to anything else; they are worthy in and of themselves, sufficient and fully capable of providing the contract between the State and the gods necessary.

We are free republican citizens, not subjects of an emperor - one of the reasons, in fact, that we refer to the months by their proper names, Quinctilis and Sextilis, rather than honoring the wretched "imperial family".

You are correct about Dr. Showerman, (my spelling mistake) but you need to read the quote you yourself wrote very carefully. It actually proves my point.

Vale,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74596 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-03-24
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Maior Juliae Aquilae spd;
O my gods I've been away what 1 day & we need to sing nice Roman songs!

O it's the festival of Attis
let's celebrate his rebirth
remember its not jesus or some christians; they might feel worse

So when you weep for Attis make sure that you are clear,
that it's our Virgin Mother- Cybele to whom we cheer...
O...

Now Everyone, kiss & hug don't you feel better?
vale
Maior




>
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> Let's all sing a nice Latin song and maybe we can finally put an end to this... *laughs*
>
> Valete,
>
> Julia
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "phoenixfyre17" <phoenixfyre17@> wrote:
> >
> > Salvete omnes,
> >
> > Christ, I swear the same debate comes up every year on Attis. Read last year's discussion (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/62453) and lay the fucking thing to rest already...
> >
> > May the Magna Mater Deum Idaea be with us all,
> > Titus Iulius Nero
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74597 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-24
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Csato Piscino sal.

But just one other thought.

You wrote:

"The fact is that during the period outlined in the Constitution as our period of interest, these celebrations took place at Rome. They were not part of the religio Romana or sacra publica, not the rites I posted on or that you refer to. My post was historical information."

I just want to be absolutely crystal clear that it follows that it would be correct and acceptable, then, to post as historical information the rites, rituals, and beliefs of *any* religion that falls within the time frame of the Constitution? Any religion? As long as it is done in an historical context?

Vale,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74598 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-03-24
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Salve Nero;
it's good to see you here. You wrote a fabulous article, with fine scholarship on the Taurobolium
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Taurobolium

shall we work on one for Magna Mater to do her justice? we need to mention the Attis figurines found by Professor Pensabene in his excavations, showing the cult of Attis was present during the Republic. Archeology is very important to modern scholarship
bene vale in pacem Ideae Matris deum!
Maior

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "phoenixfyre17" <phoenixfyre17@...> wrote:
>
> LOL
>
> This is why I love this place, let the insults fly!
>
> Hardly a "temper tantrum", it just gets rather annoying that the same people have the same revolving arguments every year when they've been previously settled by those who don't bother to fling insults at one another.
>
> But anywho, I've done my work to remind people of the resolution of this argument. Check ya laterz!
>
> Titus Iulius Nero
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Tullia Scholastica" <fororom@> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > A. Tullia Scholastica scriba praetoria T. Julio Neroni omnibusque s.d.
> > >
> > > Please be advised that this is an open list, one with minors on it, and
> > > the word I have altered below is not appropriate here. It is in violation of
> > > the Yahoo ToS, to say nothing of normal moderation edicta, one of which is
> > > said to be in preparation. This is not the BA or any other adults-only list.
> > > Secondly, there is absolutely no reason for this temper tantrum in the
> > > peaceful discussion we have been having.
> > >
> > > Valete.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Salvete omnes,
> > >
> > > Christ, I swear the same debate comes up every year on Attis. Read last
> > > year's discussion (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/62453) and
> > > lay the f..... thing to rest already...
> > >
> > > May the Magna Mater Deum Idaea be with us all,
> > > Titus Iulius Nero
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74599 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-03-24
Subject: a. d. IX Kalendas Apriles: Q. R. C. F. and dies Sanguis
M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus Quiritibus et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit: Bene omnibus nobis.

Hodie est ante diem IX Kalendas Apriles; haec dies fastus est: Quando Rex Comitiaviti Fas; Dies Sanguis

Q. R. C. F. The day on which "it was permitted for the Rex Sacrorum to call the Comitia to assemble." The Comitia Curiata assembled to hear wills and adoptions. Its concern was the transfer of family rites as much as that of property. Roman law on inheritance conveys that concern that family rites be maintained by the heirs. When some conflict would come up we see how the religious aspects of inheritance held priority over mere financial concerns.

"How certain, how notorius even, was the insanity of Tuditanus! He scattered coins among the people, he trailed his toga like a tragic
vestment in the Forum amid the guffaws of onlookers, he committed many similar extravagances. By his will he made his daughter his
heir, which Ti. Longus, his nearest kin, tried unsuccessfully to cancel in the Comitia Curiata. For the Curiata thought that what
was written in the will ought to be considered rather than who wrote it." ~ Valerius Maximus 7.8.1


Dies Sanguis

Mourning for Attys reached its climax on the Day of Blood. The archigallus led the wild dance around the sacred pine tree while
flagellating himself and the other galli with a whip tipped with knuckle-bones. Others used knives to slice their arms and shoulders. Still others beat their naked chests with pinecones. In the frenzy of dance, to the sound of cymbals, timbrels, and clarinets, the blood splattered onto the pine and the altar before it. In that moment of frenzy, some slashed at their testicles with broken glass, pottery shards, or flint blades. The pine tree, decorated with ribbons, strips of cloth bearing prayers, and flowers, was then cut down and laid in a tomb. A vigil was kept throughout the night, awaiting the resurrection of Attys with the new dawn.

"To take another myth, they say that the Mother of the Gods seeing Attis lying by the river Gallus fell in love with him, took him,
crowned him with her cap of stars, and thereafter kept him with her. He fell in love with a nymph and left the Mother to live with her.
For this the Mother of the Gods made Attis go mad and cut off his genital organs and leave them with the nymph, and then return and
dwell with her.

"Now the Mother of the Gods is the principle that generates life; that is why she is called Mother. Attis is the creator of all things
which are born and die; that is why he is said to have been found by the river Gallus. For Gallus signifies the Galaxy, or Milky Way, the point at which body subject to passion begins. Now as the primary gods make perfect the secondary, the Mother loves Attis and gives him celestial powers. That is what the cap means. Attis loves a nymph: the nymphs preside over generation, since all that is generated is fluid. But since the process of generation must be stopped somewhere, and not allowed to generate something worse than the worst, the creator who makes these things casts away his generative powers into the creation and is joined to the Gods again. Now these things never happened, but always are. And mind sees all things at once, but reason (or speech) expresses some first and others after. Thus, as the myth is in accord with the cosmos, we for that reason keep a festival imitating the cosmos, for how could we attain higher order?

"And at first we ourselves, having fallen from heaven and living with the nymph, are in despondency, and abstain from corn and all
rich and unclean food, for both are hostile to the soul. Then comes the cutting of the tree and the fast, as though we also were cutting
off the further process of generation. After that the feeding on milk, as though we were being born again; after which come rejoicings
and garlands and, as it were, a return up to the Gods.

"The season of the ritual is evidence to the truth of these explanations. The rites are performed about the Vernal equinox, when
the fruits of the earth are ceasing to be produced, and day is becoming longer than night, which applies well to spirits rising
higher. (At least, the other equinox is in mythology the time of the rape of Kore, which is the descent of the souls.)

"May these explanations of the myths find favour in the eyes of the Gods themselves and the souls of those who wrote the myths." ~
Sallustius, On the Gods and the Cosmos 4.7-10


Our thought for today is from Marcus Aurelius, Meditations 5.28:

"Live with the Gods. And he does live with the Gods who constantly shows to Them that his own soul is satisfied with that which is assigned to him, and that he does all that his Genius wishes of him, which Jupiter has given to every man as his guardian and guide, a portion of Himself, and this is every man's reason and understanding."
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74600 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-03-24
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Piscinus Catone sal.

Actually, I don't know what your point is. The festival held in March for Attys has nothing to do with our sacra publica, or that of Roma's antiqua sacra publica. The galli were given permission to perform their sacra privita once a year, and under Claudius sodalitates were organized that were likewise private rather than public. So why bring it up? The sacra publica for Magna Mater is a Roman cultus, not foreign, and is performed next month.

As for being strictly Republican, we do not limit ourselves to such, and if you were so concerned, then why to you lead the opposition against the reform effort? Its aim is to reorganize the collegia on a Republican model rather than the imperial model that is currently in the Constitution and eliminate the hierarchal structure of our religious institutions so that each collegium would again become independent.

I don't understand your point either on anyone trying to prove a similar anything. You seem to have a problem with syncretism itself. No doubt because you belong to an exclusionary tradition that nit picks among yourselves as to who has to "true vision" of your particular cult. You want to claim that your cult is different than that of the galli? Yet you get upset that their festival co-incides with your spring rites, and you get upset each year that your cult adopted its winter festival at a time when Mithraists and followers of Adonis celebrate the birth of their Gods. And the sacraments of the mysteries religions are the same as your cult. Or is it the similarity of the little particulars that upset you so much? A procession of people carrying palms upsets you because you also have a festival of palms? Decorating a tree? The fact that it is laid buried for three days? The fact that people rejoiced with cries that "He is risen"? Or in the winter festival how expressions were made of the Virgin giving birth of a savior? You want to claim that your cult is somehow different from the other eastern mystery religions in spite of all the similarities, from a time when syncretism and borrowings from one another was a common practice. Citing fellow Christians, whether from the fourth century or from 1900, who like you try to refute what seems obvious to others, does not make your case. Your religion borrowed heavily from other traditions around it, including all the other mystery religions of its time. And the proof of that is in your own texts where Paul quotes from Greek sources, where myths of Tammuz and Adonis are worked in to your myths of Jesus, where the so-called parables of Jesus are actually taken from the Pythagoreans and wisdom sayings attributed in your cult to Jesus appear in earlier works from the lands of the east where Adonis, Tammuz, Mithras, and Cybele were worshipped. Yes, and I suppose the Ka'aba, too, is a shrine exclusively of Allah rather than that of Allath and Her son, and has no history prior to Islam. But where the dies Sanguis was celebrated by the archigallus whipping his galli as they self mutilated themselves, and the Shi'ites worship with self-flagellation, and in Jerusalem at this time of year Christians will walk the steps of Jesus while self-flaggellating themselves, and women shall crawl about on their knees, as Juvenal describes a devotee of Isis having done, I don't see much difference at all, nor anything that distinguishes your cult from these other eastern cults. And that is what seems to bother you as well, that so little can be distinguished in the cults for Adonis, Tammuz, Attys from your own mythical Jesus.

Cato, I am not a Christian. I have never been a Christian, a Jew or a Muslim. I do not see your cult in the same way as you do. Why do I need to state that to you again? Our annual dispute only reminds me of what my university professor had to say about Christianity, his view being that of NYC Jew, and reminds me, too, of how Robin Williams describes Easter. You wish to hold that your cult is somehow distinct from similiar cults? Well, I do not regard the divi Julius Caesar and Augustus as "wretched," nor do I see your cult as distinct in any way from the other barbaric, blood-letting, foreign cults of the east. You are free to celebrate your mock human sacrifice and hold your similated cannibalistic feast. I shall not be participating in your cult. Rather, while your cult celebrates its Friday crusifixion, I shall be attending the opening of the "Clash of Titans."



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> Cato Piscino sal.
>
> Whether or not Nova Roma "approaches all religions with a syncretistic approach" means nothing academically. Nova Roma could approach you and declare you the king of Siam, and it wouldn't make it true.
>
> If we are to gain any kind of academic respectability we must stop insisting on a reliance on awkward and discredited scholarship and instead focus on what is important to the Respublica - the sacra publica of the Roman republic.
>
> I cannot stress enough that trying to "prove" that all religious impulses are simply mirrors of each other, in particulars and generalities, in order to provide some sort of referential support for the sacra publica (i.e., "we're just as good because we believe the same thing as X religion") is not helpful and indeed detrimental to the place of the Roman sacra publica.
>
> The sacra publica are not made worthy because they are a mirror of anything else or in contrast to anything else; they are worthy in and of themselves, sufficient and fully capable of providing the contract between the State and the gods necessary.
>
> We are free republican citizens, not subjects of an emperor - one of the reasons, in fact, that we refer to the months by their proper names, Quinctilis and Sextilis, rather than honoring the wretched "imperial family".
>
> You are correct about Dr. Showerman, (my spelling mistake) but you need to read the quote you yourself wrote very carefully. It actually proves my point.
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74601 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-03-24
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Piscinus Catone sal.

LOL You sound as though you have some hidden agenda there, Cato.

Any religion? You mean like the Christian cult that practiced free sex as a sacrament and all the other little Christian sects of the imperial age? Trust me, you do not want to open that door.



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> Csato Piscino sal.
>
> But just one other thought.
>
> You wrote:
>
> "The fact is that during the period outlined in the Constitution as our period of interest, these celebrations took place at Rome. They were not part of the religio Romana or sacra publica, not the rites I posted on or that you refer to. My post was historical information."
>
> I just want to be absolutely crystal clear that it follows that it would be correct and acceptable, then, to post as historical information the rites, rituals, and beliefs of *any* religion that falls within the time frame of the Constitution? Any religion? As long as it is done in an historical context?
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74602 From: T. Annaeus Regulus Date: 2010-03-24
Subject: Oath of Office of T. Annaeus Regulus
I, Titus Annaeus Regulus (Matthew King) do hereby solemnly swear to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.
As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Titus Annaeus Regulus (Matthew King) swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

I, Titus Annaeus Regulus (Matthew King) swear to uphold and defend the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to act in a way that would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Titus Annaeus Regulus (Matthew King) swear to protect and defend the Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Titus Annaeus Regulus (Matthew King) further swear to fulfill the obligations and responsibilities of the office of Quaestor to the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do I accept the position of Quaestor and all the rights, privileges, obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74603 From: Jennifer Harris Date: 2010-03-24
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Aeterniae Maiori spd:

Apologies for jumping in, but upon seeing the mentioning of Cybele..
Wouldn't the Goddess also be referred to as Ops/Opis as well? Let me phrase
this better actually.. Couldn't Cybele also be referred to as Ops/Opis for
the Roman aspects of such Deity.

Oy, it's early so this came out super muddled :-)

Vale,
Aeternia

On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 9:47 PM, rory12001 <rory12001@...> wrote:

>
>
> Maior Juliae Aquilae spd;
> O my gods I've been away what 1 day & we need to sing nice Roman songs!
>
> O it's the festival of Attis
> let's celebrate his rebirth
> remember its not jesus or some christians; they might feel worse
>
> So when you weep for Attis make sure that you are clear,
> that it's our Virgin Mother- Cybele to whom we cheer...
> O...
>
> Now Everyone, kiss & hug don't you feel better?
> vale
> Maior
>
>
> >
> > Salvete Omnes,
> >
> > Let's all sing a nice Latin song and maybe we can finally put an end to
> this... *laughs*
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > Julia
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "phoenixfyre17" <phoenixfyre17@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Salvete omnes,
> > >
> > > Christ, I swear the same debate comes up every year on Attis. Read last
> year's discussion (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/62453)
> and lay the fucking thing to rest already...
> > >
> > > May the Magna Mater Deum Idaea be with us all,
> > > Titus Iulius Nero
> > >
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74604 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-24
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Cato Piscino sal.

Good enough. You've answered the question.

vale!

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74605 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-24
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Cato Piscino sal.

This is the heart of the problem that we, as a Respublica, face with people like you in charge of reconstructing the sacra publica; you, like Frazer, see pictures of horses drawn by people six thousand miles apart and suddenly the two cultures that depicted them *must* be connected because oh my goodness! how else could two totally separate peoples have drawn the same animal?

The idea of syncretic thought does not automatically make the leap into a New Age-y blending of anything that falls into your lap; the Romans certainly didn't act that way and neither should we.

Attis was not resurrected. He turned into a pine tree, and not under his own power. Osiris was not resurrected. Mithra was not resurrected. The historic sources are quite clear, and it is the attempt to make these rites something that they are not out of either ignorance or malice that is truly damaging.

You need to learn a little more about the religious traditions you are so eager to lump together.

Vale,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74606 From: tpontiussilanus Date: 2010-03-24
Subject: The Gospel According to the Romans
Salvete,
My novel 'The Gospel According to the Romans' (warning - not a Christian but a skeptical Roman view of Jesus) has made it to the Quarterfinals of ABNA (Amazon Breakthrough Novel Award).
I would be glad of any reviews or comments on the opening 5,000 words, which are available free as a Kindle download from Amazon. And if you don't have a Kindle, Kindle for PCs is available as a free download too (which I only discovered a few minutes ago).
Valete,
T. Pontius Silanus
a.k.a. Robin Helweg-Larsen (you can friend me on Facebook)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74607 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-03-24
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Salve Piscine;
ecastor this is pretty funny. He's my holiday entertainment;
watch Cato froth at the mouth when his holidays co-incide with ours! how did that happen;-)

Now let's sing another chorus - *warning* humour ahead :

Cybele you are the Virgo, the Queen of Heaven for sure
gods don't mistake me for an Isis-worshipper;
for that I could not endure...
vale
Maior




--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> Cato Piscino sal.
>
> This is the heart of the problem that we, as a Respublica, face with people like you in charge of reconstructing the sacra publica; you, like Frazer, see pictures of horses drawn by people six thousand miles apart and suddenly the two cultures that depicted them *must* be connected because oh my goodness! how else could two totally separate peoples have drawn the same animal?
>
> The idea of syncretic thought does not automatically make the leap into a New Age-y blending of anything that falls into your lap; the Romans certainly didn't act that way and neither should we.
>
> Attis was not resurrected. He turned into a pine tree, and not under his own power. Osiris was not resurrected. Mithra was not resurrected. The historic sources are quite clear, and it is the attempt to make these rites something that they are not out of either ignorance or malice that is truly damaging.
>
> You need to learn a little more about the religious traditions you are so eager to lump together.
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74608 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-03-24
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Maior Aeterniae spd;
Ops is very interesting, she is associated with Tellus, but in some places, I know for sure in North Africa she became associated with Cybele but not in Rome itself as far as I know. Cybele did have a huge syncretic cultus all over the Roman world and was merged with many goddesses. Is that helpful?
optime vale
Maior

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Jennifer Harris <cyannerose@...> wrote:
>
> Aeterniae Maiori spd:
>
> Apologies for jumping in, but upon seeing the mentioning of Cybele..
> Wouldn't the Goddess also be referred to as Ops/Opis as well? Let me phrase
> this better actually.. Couldn't Cybele also be referred to as Ops/Opis for
> the Roman aspects of such Deity.
>
> Oy, it's early so this came out super muddled :-)
>
> Vale,
> Aeternia
>
> On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 9:47 PM, rory12001 <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Maior Juliae Aquilae spd;
> > O my gods I've been away what 1 day & we need to sing nice Roman songs!
> >
> > O it's the festival of Attis
> > let's celebrate his rebirth
> > remember its not jesus or some christians; they might feel worse
> >
> > So when you weep for Attis make sure that you are clear,
> > that it's our Virgin Mother- Cybele to whom we cheer...
> > O...
> >
> > Now Everyone, kiss & hug don't you feel better?
> > vale
> > Maior
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Salvete Omnes,
> > >
> > > Let's all sing a nice Latin song and maybe we can finally put an end to
> > this... *laughs*
> > >
> > > Valete,
> > >
> > > Julia
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > "phoenixfyre17" <phoenixfyre17@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Salvete omnes,
> > > >
> > > > Christ, I swear the same debate comes up every year on Attis. Read last
> > year's discussion (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/62453)
> > and lay the fucking thing to rest already...
> > > >
> > > > May the Magna Mater Deum Idaea be with us all,
> > > > Titus Iulius Nero
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74609 From: Charlie Collins Date: 2010-03-24
Subject: Wikipedia: Ancient Rome Portal
Salve,

While looking for info on the Byzantine Empire I found these Wikipedia
Portal's. One is for Rome and one for the Byzantine's. I thought ya'll
might be interested. This looks like it puts almost everything in one
place Wikipedia wise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Ancient_Rome
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Byzantine_Empire

Vale,
Quintus Servilius Priscus

--
Sent from my Sprint HTC Hero!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74610 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-25
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Cato Maiori Aeterniae SPD

From the Myth Index:

"OPS - A female Roman divinity of plenty and fertility, as is indicated by her nane, which is connected with opinus, opuleidus, iopsq, anid copia. (Fest. p. 186. &c. ed. Müller.) She was regarded as the wife of Saturnus, and, accordingly, as the protectress of every thing connected with agriculture. Her abode was in the earth, and hence those who invoked her, or made vows to her, used to touch the ground (Macrob. Sat. i. 10), and as she was believed to give to human beings both their place of abode and their food, newly-born children were recommended to her care. (August. de Civ Dei, iv. 11, 21.) Her worship was intimately connected with that of her husband Saturnus, for she had both temples and festivals in common with him; she had, however, also a separate sanctuary on the Capitol, and in the vicus jugarius, not far from the temple of Saturnus, she had an altar in common with Ceres. (Liv. xxxix. 22; P. Vict. Req. Urb. viii ) The festivals of Ops are called Opalia and Opiconsivia, from her surname Consita, connected with the verb serere, to sow. (Fest.1.c.; Macrob. Sat.i.10, 12.)"

The goddess Ops is sometimes identified with Rhea, the wife of Kronos and mother of the gods:

"The great father [Kronos], Rhea's husband, goddess who holds the throne highest of all." - Pindar, Odes Olympian 2 ep4

"But Rhea was subject in love to Kronos and bare splendid children, Hestia, Demeter, and gold-shod Hera and strong Haides ... and the loud-crashing Earth-Shaker [Poseidon], and wise Zeus ... These great Kronos swallowed as each came forth from the womb to his mother's knees with this intent, that no other of the proud sons of Ouranos (Heaven) should hold the kingly office amongst the deathless gods..." - Hesiod, Theogony 453

"The Milky Way ... Others say that at the time Ops [Rhea] brought to Saturnus [Kronos] the stone, pretending it was a child, he bade her offer milk to it; when she pressed her breast, the milk that was caused to flow formed the circle which we mentioned above." - Hyginus, Astronomica 2.43

Rhea and Cybele may be erroneously connected because the name of one of the nymphs to whom Rhea gave Zeus after He was born:

"[Kronos] then married his sister Rhea. Because both Ge (Earth) and Ouranos (Sky) had given him prophetic warning that his rule would be overthrown by a son of his own, he took to swallowing his children at birth. He swallowed his first-born daughter Hestia, then Demeter and Hera, and after them Plouton [Haides] and Poseidon. Angered by this, Rhea, when she was heavy with Zeus, went off to Krete and gave birth to him there in a cave on Mount Dikte. She put him in the care of both the Kouretes and the Nymphai Adrasteia and Ide, daughters of Melisseus." - Apollodorus, The Library 1.4

but the Mount Ida to which Zeus was apparently brought was the one in Crete, not the the Ida in Phrygia:

"When Zeus was born, Rhea entrusted the guardianship of her son to the Daktyloi of Ida, who are the same as those called Kouretes." - Pausanias, Guide to Greece 5.7.6-10

"To Kronos and Rhea, we are told, were born Hestia, Demeter, and Hera, and Zeus, Poseidon, and Haides ... Kronos time and again did away with the children whom he begot; but Rhea, grieved as she was, and yet lacking the power to change her husband's purpose, when she had given birth to Zeus, concealed him in Ide, as it is called, and, without the knowledge of Kronos, entrusted the rearing of him to the Kouretes of Mt Ide." - Diodorus Siculus, Library of History 5.68.1 & 70.1

BUT then the Kouretes were supposed to have been summoned *from* Phrygia, so it gets more confusing:

"Others say that the Korybantes, who came from Baktriana, some say from among the Kolkhians, were given as armed ministers to Rhea by the Titanes. But in the Kretan accounts the Kouretes are called 'rearers of Zeus,' and 'protectors of Zeus,' having been summoned from Phrygia to Krete by Rhea. Some say that, of the nine Telkhines who lived in Rhodes, those who accompanied Rhea to Krete and 'reared' Zeus 'in his youth' were named Kouretes." - Strabo, Geography 10.3.19

Valete,

Cato



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> Maior Aeterniae spd;
> Ops is very interesting, she is associated with Tellus, but in some places, I know for sure in North Africa she became associated with Cybele but not in Rome itself as far as I know. Cybele did have a huge syncretic cultus all over the Roman world and was merged with many goddesses. Is that helpful?
> optime vale
> Maior
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74611 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-03-25
Subject: a. d. VIII Kalendas Apriles: Hilaria of Attys
M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus Quiritibus, cultoribus Deorum et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit: Di Deaeque felicitatem in nos impertiant.

Hodie est ante diem VIII Kalendas Apriles; haec dies comitialis est: Hilaria

"When the simulation of mourning was over, the rebirth of joy was celebrated on the eight day before the calends of April. This day is
called Hilaria, the first when the hours of sunshine are longer than those of night." ~ Macrobius, Saturnalia 1.21.9

The Hilaria, a "Day of Rejoicing," celebrates the resurrection of Attys an His triumph over death. Two-thousand years ago, this day, 25 March, was when occurred the vernal equinox and "the first day when the day is longer than the night."

Throughout the night prayers and lamentations over the death of Attys have been chanted in the shadows. The followers of Attys entered as a moriturus, as one who was "about to die." With the first light of day, the priest anointed the chest of the faithful, while slowly murmuring:

"Have faith, be of good cheer, ye mystae, God is saved! For you likewise there shall come salvation from His suffering." ~ Firmicus
Maternus, The Error of Profane Religions 22.1

The mystae gave their confession to signify that they had partaken in the mysteries of the Magna Mater:

I have eaten from the tympanon;
I have drunk from the cymbal;
I have carried the sacred kernos dish;
I have entered into the inner chamber.

"Under the sword he returned the crown."


During the reign of Commodus the Hilaria was celebrated with a large procession. An image of the Magna Mater was carried through the streets as though it were Her triomphe. Before Her works of art were carried in displays. Companies of musicians and mimes intermingled with senators, equites, as well as freedmen and foreigners, all dressed and masked as though at carnival.

The tomb of Attys was opened and the pine tree carried to the Forum where it was erected once more. Thereby was the resurrection of Attys symbolically reenacted. It may at times have been pantomimed as well. Feasting followed. The initiates to the mysteries identified themselves with the resurrected Attys. The feast represented the blessings that awaited them in the after-life. In private homes, pine cones were decorated with much merriment in what became a celebration of spring.

In the mysteries of Demeter at Eleusis an inscription reads, "Beautiful indeed is the Mystery given us by the blessed Gods:
death is for mortals no longer an evil, but a blessing." The same held true for initiates in the mysteries of the Magna Mater.

"I dreamed that I had become Attys, and that I was being initiated by the Mother of the Gods in the festival called Hilaria, inasmuch as it was intended to signify that our salvation from death had been accomplished." ~ Damascius


Our thought for today comes from Euripides, Chrysippus fr. 839, 9-11, which Marcus Aurelius quotes at Meditations 7.50:

"That which has grown from the earth to the earth,
But that which has sprung from heavenly seed,
Back to the heavenly realms returns."
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74612 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-03-25
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Piscinus Catone sal.

You have not answered my question, and here again you make assertions that are not supported by the evidence. How can Attys not be resurrected when Damascius says, "I dreamed that I had become Attys, and that I was being initiated by the Mother of the Gods in the festival called Hilaria, inasmuch as it was intended to signify that our salvation from death had been accomplished." Or your Christian author, Firmicus, quoting what was said at the festivals of Attys, "Have faith, be of good cheer, ye mystae, God is saved! For you likewise there shall come salvation from His suffering."

The problem is that you, Cato, have a very narrow view of what resurrection means. The problem is with you, not with what I post about the celebrations held in Rome.



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> Cato Piscino sal.
>
> This is the heart of the problem that we, as a Respublica, face with people like you in charge of reconstructing the sacra publica; you, like Frazer, see pictures of horses drawn by people six thousand miles apart and suddenly the two cultures that depicted them *must* be connected because oh my goodness! how else could two totally separate peoples have drawn the same animal?
>
> The idea of syncretic thought does not automatically make the leap into a New Age-y blending of anything that falls into your lap; the Romans certainly didn't act that way and neither should we.
>
> Attis was not resurrected. He turned into a pine tree, and not under his own power. Osiris was not resurrected. Mithra was not resurrected. The historic sources are quite clear, and it is the attempt to make these rites something that they are not out of either ignorance or malice that is truly damaging.
>
> You need to learn a little more about the religious traditions you are so eager to lump together.
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74613 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-03-25
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Pouthier, Pierre.
Title Ops et la conception divine de l'abondance dans la religion romaine jusqu'à la mort d'Auguste / par Pierre Pouthier.
Imprint Rome : Ecole française de Rome ; Paris : Diffusion De Boccard, 1981

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> Cato Maiori Aeterniae SPD
>
> From the Myth Index:
>
> "OPS - A female Roman divinity of plenty and fertility, as is indicated by her nane, which is connected with opinus, opuleidus, iopsq, anid copia. (Fest. p. 186. &c. ed. Müller.) She was regarded as the wife of Saturnus, and, accordingly, as the protectress of every thing connected with agriculture. Her abode was in the earth, and hence those who invoked her, or made vows to her, used to touch the ground (Macrob. Sat. i. 10), and as she was believed to give to human beings both their place of abode and their food, newly-born children were recommended to her care. (August. de Civ Dei, iv. 11, 21.) Her worship was intimately connected with that of her husband Saturnus, for she had both temples and festivals in common with him; she had, however, also a separate sanctuary on the Capitol, and in the vicus jugarius, not far from the temple of Saturnus, she had an altar in common with Ceres. (Liv. xxxix. 22; P. Vict. Req. Urb. viii ) The festivals of Ops are called Opalia and Opiconsivia, from her surname Consita, connected with the verb serere, to sow. (Fest.1.c.; Macrob. Sat.i.10, 12.)"
>
> The goddess Ops is sometimes identified with Rhea, the wife of Kronos and mother of the gods:
>
> "The great father [Kronos], Rhea's husband, goddess who holds the throne highest of all." - Pindar, Odes Olympian 2 ep4
>
> "But Rhea was subject in love to Kronos and bare splendid children, Hestia, Demeter, and gold-shod Hera and strong Haides ... and the loud-crashing Earth-Shaker [Poseidon], and wise Zeus ... These great Kronos swallowed as each came forth from the womb to his mother's knees with this intent, that no other of the proud sons of Ouranos (Heaven) should hold the kingly office amongst the deathless gods..." - Hesiod, Theogony 453
>
> "The Milky Way ... Others say that at the time Ops [Rhea] brought to Saturnus [Kronos] the stone, pretending it was a child, he bade her offer milk to it; when she pressed her breast, the milk that was caused to flow formed the circle which we mentioned above." - Hyginus, Astronomica 2.43
>
> Rhea and Cybele may be erroneously connected because the name of one of the nymphs to whom Rhea gave Zeus after He was born:
>
> "[Kronos] then married his sister Rhea. Because both Ge (Earth) and Ouranos (Sky) had given him prophetic warning that his rule would be overthrown by a son of his own, he took to swallowing his children at birth. He swallowed his first-born daughter Hestia, then Demeter and Hera, and after them Plouton [Haides] and Poseidon. Angered by this, Rhea, when she was heavy with Zeus, went off to Krete and gave birth to him there in a cave on Mount Dikte. She put him in the care of both the Kouretes and the Nymphai Adrasteia and Ide, daughters of Melisseus." - Apollodorus, The Library 1.4
>
> but the Mount Ida to which Zeus was apparently brought was the one in Crete, not the the Ida in Phrygia:
>
> "When Zeus was born, Rhea entrusted the guardianship of her son to the Daktyloi of Ida, who are the same as those called Kouretes." - Pausanias, Guide to Greece 5.7.6-10
>
> "To Kronos and Rhea, we are told, were born Hestia, Demeter, and Hera, and Zeus, Poseidon, and Haides ... Kronos time and again did away with the children whom he begot; but Rhea, grieved as she was, and yet lacking the power to change her husband's purpose, when she had given birth to Zeus, concealed him in Ide, as it is called, and, without the knowledge of Kronos, entrusted the rearing of him to the Kouretes of Mt Ide." - Diodorus Siculus, Library of History 5.68.1 & 70.1
>
> BUT then the Kouretes were supposed to have been summoned *from* Phrygia, so it gets more confusing:
>
> "Others say that the Korybantes, who came from Baktriana, some say from among the Kolkhians, were given as armed ministers to Rhea by the Titanes. But in the Kretan accounts the Kouretes are called 'rearers of Zeus,' and 'protectors of Zeus,' having been summoned from Phrygia to Krete by Rhea. Some say that, of the nine Telkhines who lived in Rhodes, those who accompanied Rhea to Krete and 'reared' Zeus 'in his youth' were named Kouretes." - Strabo, Geography 10.3.19
>
> Valete,
>
> Cato
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> >
> > Maior Aeterniae spd;
> > Ops is very interesting, she is associated with Tellus, but in some places, I know for sure in North Africa she became associated with Cybele but not in Rome itself as far as I know. Cybele did have a huge syncretic cultus all over the Roman world and was merged with many goddesses. Is that helpful?
> > optime vale
> > Maior
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74614 From: Jennifer Harris Date: 2010-03-25
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Aeterniae Catoni Maiori SPD,

Well now, so I'm going to be a brat on this one and go with the short
version. (although Maior and Cato your responses were both informative)

Rhea in the greek pantheon is considered Mother of the Gods and better yet
the Mother of the first Class of the Olympian Gods (i.e. the first major
six) while her Roman counterpart although similar but not exactly the
duplicate equivalent Ops is considered the Roman Mother of the Gods, and
somewhere down the lines became associated with Goddess Cybele?

Do we have a "bingo" folks?

P.S. Apologies if this came out rather crass, but it's really morning
still..

Vale,
Aeternia (in need of caffeine)

On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 4:28 AM, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:

>
>
> Cato Maiori Aeterniae SPD
>
> From the Myth Index:
>
> "OPS - A female Roman divinity of plenty and fertility, as is indicated by
> her nane, which is connected with opinus, opuleidus, iopsq, anid copia.
> (Fest. p. 186. &c. ed. M�ller.) She was regarded as the wife of Saturnus,
> and, accordingly, as the protectress of every thing connected with
> agriculture. Her abode was in the earth, and hence those who invoked her, or
> made vows to her, used to touch the ground (Macrob. Sat. i. 10), and as she
> was believed to give to human beings both their place of abode and their
> food, newly-born children were recommended to her care. (August. de Civ Dei,
> iv. 11, 21.) Her worship was intimately connected with that of her husband
> Saturnus, for she had both temples and festivals in common with him; she
> had, however, also a separate sanctuary on the Capitol, and in the vicus
> jugarius, not far from the temple of Saturnus, she had an altar in common
> with Ceres. (Liv. xxxix. 22; P. Vict. Req. Urb. viii ) The festivals of Ops
> are called Opalia and Opiconsivia, from her surname Consita, connected with
> the verb serere, to sow. (Fest.1.c.; Macrob. Sat.i.10, 12.)"
>
> The goddess Ops is sometimes identified with Rhea, the wife of Kronos and
> mother of the gods:
>
> "The great father [Kronos], Rhea's husband, goddess who holds the throne
> highest of all." - Pindar, Odes Olympian 2 ep4
>
> "But Rhea was subject in love to Kronos and bare splendid children, Hestia,
> Demeter, and gold-shod Hera and strong Haides ... and the loud-crashing
> Earth-Shaker [Poseidon], and wise Zeus ... These great Kronos swallowed as
> each came forth from the womb to his mother's knees with this intent, that
> no other of the proud sons of Ouranos (Heaven) should hold the kingly office
> amongst the deathless gods..." - Hesiod, Theogony 453
>
> "The Milky Way ... Others say that at the time Ops [Rhea] brought to
> Saturnus [Kronos] the stone, pretending it was a child, he bade her offer
> milk to it; when she pressed her breast, the milk that was caused to flow
> formed the circle which we mentioned above." - Hyginus, Astronomica 2.43
>
> Rhea and Cybele may be erroneously connected because the name of one of the
> nymphs to whom Rhea gave Zeus after He was born:
>
> "[Kronos] then married his sister Rhea. Because both Ge (Earth) and Ouranos
> (Sky) had given him prophetic warning that his rule would be overthrown by a
> son of his own, he took to swallowing his children at birth. He swallowed
> his first-born daughter Hestia, then Demeter and Hera, and after them
> Plouton [Haides] and Poseidon. Angered by this, Rhea, when she was heavy
> with Zeus, went off to Krete and gave birth to him there in a cave on Mount
> Dikte. She put him in the care of both the Kouretes and the Nymphai
> Adrasteia and Ide, daughters of Melisseus." - Apollodorus, The Library 1.4
>
> but the Mount Ida to which Zeus was apparently brought was the one in
> Crete, not the the Ida in Phrygia:
>
> "When Zeus was born, Rhea entrusted the guardianship of her son to the
> Daktyloi of Ida, who are the same as those called Kouretes." - Pausanias,
> Guide to Greece 5.7.6-10
>
> "To Kronos and Rhea, we are told, were born Hestia, Demeter, and Hera, and
> Zeus, Poseidon, and Haides ... Kronos time and again did away with the
> children whom he begot; but Rhea, grieved as she was, and yet lacking the
> power to change her husband's purpose, when she had given birth to Zeus,
> concealed him in Ide, as it is called, and, without the knowledge of Kronos,
> entrusted the rearing of him to the Kouretes of Mt Ide." - Diodorus Siculus,
> Library of History 5.68.1 & 70.1
>
> BUT then the Kouretes were supposed to have been summoned *from* Phrygia,
> so it gets more confusing:
>
> "Others say that the Korybantes, who came from Baktriana, some say from
> among the Kolkhians, were given as armed ministers to Rhea by the Titanes.
> But in the Kretan accounts the Kouretes are called 'rearers of Zeus,' and
> 'protectors of Zeus,' having been summoned from Phrygia to Krete by Rhea.
> Some say that, of the nine Telkhines who lived in Rhodes, those who
> accompanied Rhea to Krete and 'reared' Zeus 'in his youth' were named
> Kouretes." - Strabo, Geography 10.3.19
>
> Valete,
>
> Cato
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "rory12001" <rory12001@...> wrote:
> >
> > Maior Aeterniae spd;
> > Ops is very interesting, she is associated with Tellus, but in some
> places, I know for sure in North Africa she became associated with Cybele
> but not in Rome itself as far as I know. Cybele did have a huge syncretic
> cultus all over the Roman world and was merged with many goddesses. Is that
> helpful?
> > optime vale
> > Maior
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74615 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-03-25
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Maior Aeterniae spd;
I'm at the library & took the volume out, Roman Ops is a goddess of fecundity and the harvest with a cereal aspect. She is associated with Consus. But , the interpretatio graeca allies her to Rhea & "vers des aspects de Mater et meme de Magna Mater.." p.135 Virgil, Tibullus, Ovid etc...
there you go...
vale
Maior

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Jennifer Harris <cyannerose@...> wrote:
>
> Aeterniae Catoni Maiori SPD,
>
> Well now, so I'm going to be a brat on this one and go with the short
> version. (although Maior and Cato your responses were both informative)
>
> Rhea in the greek pantheon is considered Mother of the Gods and better yet
> the Mother of the first Class of the Olympian Gods (i.e. the first major
> six) while her Roman counterpart although similar but not exactly the
> duplicate equivalent Ops is considered the Roman Mother of the Gods, and
> somewhere down the lines became associated with Goddess Cybele?
>
> Do we have a "bingo" folks?
>
> P.S. Apologies if this came out rather crass, but it's really morning
> still..
>
> Vale,
> Aeternia (in need of caffeine)
>
> On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 4:28 AM, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Cato Maiori Aeterniae SPD
> >
> > From the Myth Index:
> >
> > "OPS - A female Roman divinity of plenty and fertility, as is indicated by
> > her nane, which is connected with opinus, opuleidus, iopsq, anid copia.
> > (Fest. p. 186. &c. ed. Müller.) She was regarded as the wife of Saturnus,
> > and, accordingly, as the protectress of every thing connected with
> > agriculture. Her abode was in the earth, and hence those who invoked her, or
> > made vows to her, used to touch the ground (Macrob. Sat. i. 10), and as she
> > was believed to give to human beings both their place of abode and their
> > food, newly-born children were recommended to her care. (August. de Civ Dei,
> > iv. 11, 21.) Her worship was intimately connected with that of her husband
> > Saturnus, for she had both temples and festivals in common with him; she
> > had, however, also a separate sanctuary on the Capitol, and in the vicus
> > jugarius, not far from the temple of Saturnus, she had an altar in common
> > with Ceres. (Liv. xxxix. 22; P. Vict. Req. Urb. viii ) The festivals of Ops
> > are called Opalia and Opiconsivia, from her surname Consita, connected with
> > the verb serere, to sow. (Fest.1.c.; Macrob. Sat.i.10, 12.)"
> >
> > The goddess Ops is sometimes identified with Rhea, the wife of Kronos and
> > mother of the gods:
> >
> > "The great father [Kronos], Rhea's husband, goddess who holds the throne
> > highest of all." - Pindar, Odes Olympian 2 ep4
> >
> > "But Rhea was subject in love to Kronos and bare splendid children, Hestia,
> > Demeter, and gold-shod Hera and strong Haides ... and the loud-crashing
> > Earth-Shaker [Poseidon], and wise Zeus ... These great Kronos swallowed as
> > each came forth from the womb to his mother's knees with this intent, that
> > no other of the proud sons of Ouranos (Heaven) should hold the kingly office
> > amongst the deathless gods..." - Hesiod, Theogony 453
> >
> > "The Milky Way ... Others say that at the time Ops [Rhea] brought to
> > Saturnus [Kronos] the stone, pretending it was a child, he bade her offer
> > milk to it; when she pressed her breast, the milk that was caused to flow
> > formed the circle which we mentioned above." - Hyginus, Astronomica 2.43
> >
> > Rhea and Cybele may be erroneously connected because the name of one of the
> > nymphs to whom Rhea gave Zeus after He was born:
> >
> > "[Kronos] then married his sister Rhea. Because both Ge (Earth) and Ouranos
> > (Sky) had given him prophetic warning that his rule would be overthrown by a
> > son of his own, he took to swallowing his children at birth. He swallowed
> > his first-born daughter Hestia, then Demeter and Hera, and after them
> > Plouton [Haides] and Poseidon. Angered by this, Rhea, when she was heavy
> > with Zeus, went off to Krete and gave birth to him there in a cave on Mount
> > Dikte. She put him in the care of both the Kouretes and the Nymphai
> > Adrasteia and Ide, daughters of Melisseus." - Apollodorus, The Library 1.4
> >
> > but the Mount Ida to which Zeus was apparently brought was the one in
> > Crete, not the the Ida in Phrygia:
> >
> > "When Zeus was born, Rhea entrusted the guardianship of her son to the
> > Daktyloi of Ida, who are the same as those called Kouretes." - Pausanias,
> > Guide to Greece 5.7.6-10
> >
> > "To Kronos and Rhea, we are told, were born Hestia, Demeter, and Hera, and
> > Zeus, Poseidon, and Haides ... Kronos time and again did away with the
> > children whom he begot; but Rhea, grieved as she was, and yet lacking the
> > power to change her husband's purpose, when she had given birth to Zeus,
> > concealed him in Ide, as it is called, and, without the knowledge of Kronos,
> > entrusted the rearing of him to the Kouretes of Mt Ide." - Diodorus Siculus,
> > Library of History 5.68.1 & 70.1
> >
> > BUT then the Kouretes were supposed to have been summoned *from* Phrygia,
> > so it gets more confusing:
> >
> > "Others say that the Korybantes, who came from Baktriana, some say from
> > among the Kolkhians, were given as armed ministers to Rhea by the Titanes.
> > But in the Kretan accounts the Kouretes are called 'rearers of Zeus,' and
> > 'protectors of Zeus,' having been summoned from Phrygia to Krete by Rhea.
> > Some say that, of the nine Telkhines who lived in Rhodes, those who
> > accompanied Rhea to Krete and 'reared' Zeus 'in his youth' were named
> > Kouretes." - Strabo, Geography 10.3.19
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > Cato
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Maior Aeterniae spd;
> > > Ops is very interesting, she is associated with Tellus, but in some
> > places, I know for sure in North Africa she became associated with Cybele
> > but not in Rome itself as far as I know. Cybele did have a huge syncretic
> > cultus all over the Roman world and was merged with many goddesses. Is that
> > helpful?
> > > optime vale
> > > Maior
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74616 From: Ass.Pomerium Date: 2010-03-25
Subject: Celebrazioni del Natale di Roma: 16-17-18 Aprile a Roma
Associazione Pomerium

L'Associazione culturale Pomerium è lieta di invitarvi a Roma dal 16 al 18 Aprile per celebrare insieme il 2763°anniversario della fondazione dell'Urbe.

Come ogni anno si organizzano visite, escursioni ed eventi nel fine settimana di aprile più prossimo al 21/04, data della fondazione di Roma, un'eccezionale occasione per incontrarci e godere delle meraviglie di Roma Antica. E come sempre vi offriamo la possibilità di scoprire itinerari nuovi e poco conosciuti.



Coloro che vogliono partecipare ad uno o a più appuntamenti (tra il seguenti), sono pregati di comunicare la propria adesione a info@... o chiamando il numero 333.8527265. Sarà possibile avere informazioni e assistenza nella permanenza a Roma.



Di seguito il programma degli appuntamenti (sono gratuiti per tutti laddove non diversamente specificato), partecipate numerosi!!!





Programma





Venerdì 16 aprile 2010



1 - Escursione a Portus, il porto imperiale di Roma: area archeologica di Monte Giulio, la Necropoli dell’Isola Sacra e il Porto di Traiano



(appuntamento ore 10,00 presso il Museo della Navi Romane, Via A. Guidoni 35, Fiumicino, a 300 mt circa dalla fermata ferroviaria dell’aeroporto di Fiumicino)



Nelle vicinanze del Canale di Fiumicino, un tempo fossa traiana, è possibile visitare i resti degli scavi di una antica necropoli romana (la necropoli di Portus) e l'area archeologica di Monte Giulio. Nei pressi l'area archeologica del Porto di Traiano, costruito, a partire dalla fine del I secolo d. C., per creare un nuovo bacino portuale di servizio per Roma. La struttura più nota sopravvissuta (oltre a molte strutture portuali) è il bacino esagonale che consentiva l’ormeggio di oltre 200 navigli. Il porto sfruttava un'area portuale precedentemente esistente iniziata da Claudio, ma ormai in fase di degrado naturale e comunque di dimensioni diventate insufficienti.

Si consiglia un abbigliamento adatto alle escursioni, per una passeggiata di circa 3 ore. Provvedere per un pranzo al sacco.



(ulteriori informazioni su http://www2.rgzm.de/navis/musea/ostia/Fiumicino_Italiano.htm ; per motivi organizzativi è bene avvertire per tempo anche nell'ottica di trovare un passaggio in automobile con altri visitatori).

N.B. IL GIORNO DELLA VISITA POTREBBE ESSERE SOGGETTO A VARIAZIONE, CHE SARA' COMUNICATA, EVENTUALMENTE, ENTRO POCHI GIORNI





Sabato 17 aprile 2010



1 - Assemblea ordinaria annuale dei soci di Pomerium

(appuntamento ore 10.00 presso Federalberghi Roma, Corso d'Italia n. 19)



L'ordine del giorno sarà disponibile nel mese di Aprile sul sito www.pomerium.org ed inviato singolarmente ai soci.





2 – Visita ad alcuni locali soprastanti ed inglobati nel Teatro di Marcello

(appuntamento ore 15.30 presso ingresso dell'area archeologica del teatro, in Via del Teatro di Marcello; ingresso € 3,00, gratuito per i soci).



Il primo utilizzo del nuovo edificio per spettacoli risale all'anno 17 a.C., durante i ludi saeculares ("ludi secolari"). Nel 13 a.C. il nuovo edificio venne ufficialmente inaugurato con giochi sontuosi e dedicato a Marco Claudio Marcello, il nipote, figlio della sorella Ottavia, che Augusto aveva designato come erede. In epoca medioevale venne man mano occupato da piccole costruzioni e si trasformò in un castello fortificato, inizialmente di proprietà dei Pierleoni e poi passato ai Faffo e quindi (dal XIII secolo) ai Savelli, che fecero edificare da Baldassarre Peruzzi il palazzo tuttora esistente sopra le arcate della facciata.



(ulteriori informazioni su http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teatro_di_Marcello).





3 – Visita alle catacombe ebraiche di Villa Randanini con visita guidata all’ambiente "pagano"

(appuntamento ore 17.30 presso ingresso in Via Appia Antica 119; ingresso € 5,00, gratuito per i soci).



Scoperte nel 1859 e poste in una proprietà privata, le catacombe di Vigna Randanini costituiscono uno degli esempi migliori di strutture cimiteriali della comunità ebraica di Roma, presente nella città già dal II sec. a.C. L’ingresso avviene attraverso una vasta aula rettangolare probabilmente utilizzata come sinagoga. Le gallerie presentano tombe a “forma” (ossia scavate nel pavimento), loculi chiusi da mattoni, arcosoli e le caratteristiche sepolture a Kôchim, di origine fenicia, costituite da tombe a forno a più piani. Meravigliosi gli affreschi degli ambienti attribuibili a "pagani".



(per ulteriori informazioni http://www.spazioliberocoop.it/archives/509 e http://www.catacombsociety.org/randanini_map.html)



4 - Cena dei partecipanti alle celebrazioni del Dies Natalis

(appuntamento ore 20.15 in Piazza della Rotonda, al Pantheon, presso il ristorante "SCUSATE IL RITARDO". Menu fisso (convenzionato per soci) o a scelta (http://www.pomerium.org/promozioni.htm)





Domenica 18 aprile



1 - Parata storica ai Fori Imperiali

(appuntamento ore 10,00, Arco di Costantino lato colle Palatino)



Ormai tradizionale appuntamento per assistere alla parata organizzata dal Gruppo Storico Romano a cui partecipano numerosi gruppi rievocativi per celebrare la nascita di Roma.

(ulteriori informazioni su http://www.gsr-roma.com/)



2 - Visita guidata itinerante dell’Esquilino

(appuntamento ore 14.00 in Piazza del Colosseo - Fermata Metro B -; costo della visita € 8,00 per tutti, + € 2,00 per i non tesserati alla Federazione Archeo Rasenna)



L'Esquilino, il più alto ed il più esteso dell'Urbe, era formato da tre alture: l'Oppio nel settore meridionale, il Fagutal (in latino Fagutal, gen. -alis, nt.) in quello occidentale, confinante con la Velia, ed il Cispio nella parte settentrionale, dove si trova attualmente la basilica di Santa Maria Maggiore. Visita guidata ai maggiori siti e monumenti del colle Esquilino: Porta Esquilina (Arco di Gallieno), Mura Serviane, Porta Maggiore, Tempio di Minerva Medica e altro.



(per ulteriori informazioni http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esquilino)

N.B. L'ORARIO E LUOGO DI RITROVO DI QUEST'APPUNTAMENTO POTREBBE ESSERE SOGGETTO A VARIAZIONE, CHE SARA' COMUNICATA, EVENTUALMENTE, ENTRO POCHI GIORNI

_____



Per informazioni:
Associazione Pomerium
Viale Alessandrino 477- 00172 Roma

info@... - amministrazione@... - http://www.pomerium.org





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74617 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-25
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Cato Maiori Aeterniae SPD

That seems about right. With Rhea being the Mother of the Gods (literally) and Ops being aligned with Rhea, the idea that the "Great Mother" would be mixed in there makes some sense.

Valete,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> Maior Aeterniae spd;
> I'm at the library & took the volume out, Roman Ops is a goddess of fecundity and the harvest with a cereal aspect. She is associated with Consus. But , the interpretatio graeca allies her to Rhea & "vers des aspects de Mater et meme de Magna Mater.." p.135 Virgil, Tibullus, Ovid etc...
> there you go...
> vale
> Maior
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Jennifer Harris <cyannerose@> wrote:
> >
> > Aeterniae Catoni Maiori SPD,
> >
> > Well now, so I'm going to be a brat on this one and go with the short
> > version. (although Maior and Cato your responses were both informative)
> >
> > Rhea in the greek pantheon is considered Mother of the Gods and better yet
> > the Mother of the first Class of the Olympian Gods (i.e. the first major
> > six) while her Roman counterpart although similar but not exactly the
> > duplicate equivalent Ops is considered the Roman Mother of the Gods, and
> > somewhere down the lines became associated with Goddess Cybele?
> >
> > Do we have a "bingo" folks?
> >
> > P.S. Apologies if this came out rather crass, but it's really morning
> > still..
> >
> > Vale,
> > Aeternia (in need of caffeine)
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 4:28 AM, Cato <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Cato Maiori Aeterniae SPD
> > >
> > > From the Myth Index:
> > >
> > > "OPS - A female Roman divinity of plenty and fertility, as is indicated by
> > > her nane, which is connected with opinus, opuleidus, iopsq, anid copia.
> > > (Fest. p. 186. &c. ed. Müller.) She was regarded as the wife of Saturnus,
> > > and, accordingly, as the protectress of every thing connected with
> > > agriculture. Her abode was in the earth, and hence those who invoked her, or
> > > made vows to her, used to touch the ground (Macrob. Sat. i. 10), and as she
> > > was believed to give to human beings both their place of abode and their
> > > food, newly-born children were recommended to her care. (August. de Civ Dei,
> > > iv. 11, 21.) Her worship was intimately connected with that of her husband
> > > Saturnus, for she had both temples and festivals in common with him; she
> > > had, however, also a separate sanctuary on the Capitol, and in the vicus
> > > jugarius, not far from the temple of Saturnus, she had an altar in common
> > > with Ceres. (Liv. xxxix. 22; P. Vict. Req. Urb. viii ) The festivals of Ops
> > > are called Opalia and Opiconsivia, from her surname Consita, connected with
> > > the verb serere, to sow. (Fest.1.c.; Macrob. Sat.i.10, 12.)"
> > >
> > > The goddess Ops is sometimes identified with Rhea, the wife of Kronos and
> > > mother of the gods:
> > >
> > > "The great father [Kronos], Rhea's husband, goddess who holds the throne
> > > highest of all." - Pindar, Odes Olympian 2 ep4
> > >
> > > "But Rhea was subject in love to Kronos and bare splendid children, Hestia,
> > > Demeter, and gold-shod Hera and strong Haides ... and the loud-crashing
> > > Earth-Shaker [Poseidon], and wise Zeus ... These great Kronos swallowed as
> > > each came forth from the womb to his mother's knees with this intent, that
> > > no other of the proud sons of Ouranos (Heaven) should hold the kingly office
> > > amongst the deathless gods..." - Hesiod, Theogony 453
> > >
> > > "The Milky Way ... Others say that at the time Ops [Rhea] brought to
> > > Saturnus [Kronos] the stone, pretending it was a child, he bade her offer
> > > milk to it; when she pressed her breast, the milk that was caused to flow
> > > formed the circle which we mentioned above." - Hyginus, Astronomica 2.43
> > >
> > > Rhea and Cybele may be erroneously connected because the name of one of the
> > > nymphs to whom Rhea gave Zeus after He was born:
> > >
> > > "[Kronos] then married his sister Rhea. Because both Ge (Earth) and Ouranos
> > > (Sky) had given him prophetic warning that his rule would be overthrown by a
> > > son of his own, he took to swallowing his children at birth. He swallowed
> > > his first-born daughter Hestia, then Demeter and Hera, and after them
> > > Plouton [Haides] and Poseidon. Angered by this, Rhea, when she was heavy
> > > with Zeus, went off to Krete and gave birth to him there in a cave on Mount
> > > Dikte. She put him in the care of both the Kouretes and the Nymphai
> > > Adrasteia and Ide, daughters of Melisseus." - Apollodorus, The Library 1.4
> > >
> > > but the Mount Ida to which Zeus was apparently brought was the one in
> > > Crete, not the the Ida in Phrygia:
> > >
> > > "When Zeus was born, Rhea entrusted the guardianship of her son to the
> > > Daktyloi of Ida, who are the same as those called Kouretes." - Pausanias,
> > > Guide to Greece 5.7.6-10
> > >
> > > "To Kronos and Rhea, we are told, were born Hestia, Demeter, and Hera, and
> > > Zeus, Poseidon, and Haides ... Kronos time and again did away with the
> > > children whom he begot; but Rhea, grieved as she was, and yet lacking the
> > > power to change her husband's purpose, when she had given birth to Zeus,
> > > concealed him in Ide, as it is called, and, without the knowledge of Kronos,
> > > entrusted the rearing of him to the Kouretes of Mt Ide." - Diodorus Siculus,
> > > Library of History 5.68.1 & 70.1
> > >
> > > BUT then the Kouretes were supposed to have been summoned *from* Phrygia,
> > > so it gets more confusing:
> > >
> > > "Others say that the Korybantes, who came from Baktriana, some say from
> > > among the Kolkhians, were given as armed ministers to Rhea by the Titanes.
> > > But in the Kretan accounts the Kouretes are called 'rearers of Zeus,' and
> > > 'protectors of Zeus,' having been summoned from Phrygia to Krete by Rhea.
> > > Some say that, of the nine Telkhines who lived in Rhodes, those who
> > > accompanied Rhea to Krete and 'reared' Zeus 'in his youth' were named
> > > Kouretes." - Strabo, Geography 10.3.19
> > >
> > > Valete,
> > >
> > > Cato
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Maior Aeterniae spd;
> > > > Ops is very interesting, she is associated with Tellus, but in some
> > > places, I know for sure in North Africa she became associated with Cybele
> > > but not in Rome itself as far as I know. Cybele did have a huge syncretic
> > > cultus all over the Roman world and was merged with many goddesses. Is that
> > > helpful?
> > > > optime vale
> > > > Maior
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74618 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-25
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Cato Piscino sal.

Because first your quote says nothing about resurrection, and second the primary sources we have for the story make it quite clear that he either turned into a pine tree (the most popular one) or his body was taken and stuck in a cave, without decomposition but certainly not having been resurrected.

The problem is that when you post information that is incorrect and not supported by academic scholarship, you place an even greater stain on the somewhat dingy reputation Nova Roma has already.

Vale,

Cato



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "marcushoratius" <MHoratius@...> wrote:
>
> Piscinus Catone sal.
>
> You have not answered my question, and here again you make assertions that are not supported by the evidence. How can Attys not be resurrected when Damascius says, "I dreamed that I had become Attys, and that I was being initiated by the Mother of the Gods in the festival called Hilaria, inasmuch as it was intended to signify that our salvation from death had been accomplished." Or your Christian author, Firmicus, quoting what was said at the festivals of Attys, "Have faith, be of good cheer, ye mystae, God is saved! For you likewise there shall come salvation from His suffering."
>
> The problem is that you, Cato, have a very narrow view of what resurrection means. The problem is with you, not with what I post about the celebrations held in Rome.
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74619 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-03-26
Subject: a. d. VII Kalendas Apriles: Requietio
M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus Quiritibus et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit: Mater Deum nos complectatur dulce.

Hodie est ante diem VII Kalendas Apriles; haec dies comitialis est: Requietio

The day following the Hilaria was a "Day of Rest," the Requietio.

"Holy Goddess, Tellus, nature's mother, who brings forth all to life, and revives all from day to day; the Food of Life You grant in
eternal fidelity; and when the soul has retired, we take refuge within You. All that You grant returns to Your womb. Deservedly,
Mother of the Gods, are You called GreatÂ…Truly are You parent to all living things, human and divine, without whom nothing would be born, nothing mature." ~ Anomynous, 2nd cent


Romulus and the Cornel Tree

"Romulus dwelt beside the so-called Steps of Fair Shore; these are near the descent into the Circus Maximus from the Palatine. There
also, it is said, grew the sacred cornel tree, of which the following tale is told. Romulus, once, in trial of his strength, cast hither
from the Aventine Hill a spear, the shaft of which was made of cornel wood; the head of the spear sank deep into the ground, and no one had the strength to pull it up, though many tried, but the earth, which was fertile, cherished the wooden shaft, and sent up shoots from it, and produced a cornel trunk of good size. Those who came after Romulus preserved this with religious care as one of the most sacred objects, and walled it in. And if any visitor thought that it was not green nor flourishing, but likely to whither away and die, he
immediately proclaimed it loudly to all he met, and these, as though helping to save a house from fire, would cry, 'Water! Water!' and run together from all sides carrying full buckets to the place. But when Caius Caesar, as they say, was repairing the steps about the
enclosure, and the workmen dug here and there in the neighborhood, the roots were inadvertently destroyed and the tree withered away." ~ Plutarch, Life of Romulus 20.5-6


Ritus Romanus, Ritus Graecus

Roman ritual was celebrated by using two categories of rites, either ritus Romanus or ritus Graecus. Some caeremonia of the religio Romana were not performed by Roman ritual at all, but instead used a peregrinum sacrum. The culti Deorum of Asculapius, Cybele, and the sacra Cereris brought from Campania adopted foreign forms of ritual. In spite of its name, ritus Graecus is every way as much Roman as ritus Romanus and did not follow a Greek form of ritual. The names of these two categories of rites came into use during the third and second centuries as a way of distinguishing rites that employed some newer forms of worship, but also very ancient rites characterized by features that differed from what were considered traditional Latin rites. Part of this was probably due to the incorporation of plebeian culti Deorum into the state religion during the third century, and also the increase of Italian populations among the Roman citizenry. At the same time, though, some rituals of patrician culti Deorum were believed to have been introduced from Evander, a Greek living among the aboriginal people of Rome before the arrival of Romulus and Remus. The complexities of why rituals were placed in one or the other category of rites is not clear now, and over time some features that originally may have distinguished the two categories were adopted into one another.

Ritus Romanus was performed in the Latin fashion with the toga pulled tightly around the torso (cinctus Gabinus) and drawn up to veil the head (capite velato). For certain rituals conducted in ritus Romanus, animal sacrifices were prohibited. In others, animal victims were selected according to the deities to whom they were meant as offerings. In general, white victims for celestial deities, black victims for deities of the Underworld, while red victims were preferred for Vulcanus and Robigo. Goddesses generally received female victims. Gods received male victims that were first castrated, except in sacrifices for Mars, Neptunus, Janus, or a genius. How the animal was decorated was another consideration, depending on the deity and the particular festival – whether gilt horns were to be used, the color of ribbons (red, white or black in most instances, blue for Neptunus), a wreath of bread at some festivals, otherwise a wreath of flowers and fruits in some cases, and the embroidered dorsuale draped over the animal's flanks. Other kinds of offerings were likewise selected according to the particular deity or the particular festival. Milk was used as a libation in the oldest rites, and generally for Goddesses, although there were exceptions. Wine was generally offered as a libation, but was prohibited in some rites. A preliminary ritual was conducted on the preceding day, where a pig was sacrificed in propitiation for any ritual errors that might be made in the actual ritual. In ritus Romanus there was also a preliminary ritual of an inspection of the victims performed by pontifices

Ritus Graecus was performed without the head veiled. Instead wreaths were worn, usually made from woven laurel branches or flowers. When women took part, they are sometimes mentioned as having been barefoot. The same prescriptions on sacrifices used in ritus Romanus would seem to have been considered in ritus Graecus. More closely identified with ritus Graecus were the other type of offerings. Music, dance, theatrical performances were always performed at festivals as an offering to the Gods, not as entertainment for the public. Special hymns would be composed for the Gods, poetry and theater contests were held in Their honor. Certain dances performed by mimes that were introduced from Campania were more closely associated with ritus Graecus. Other spectacles, such as the gladiatorial contests, were likewise performed for the Gods. Horse races seem to have been associated more with ritus Romanus. Ritus Graecus is also more closely associated with certain kinds of rituals – lectisternia, sellisternia, and supplicationes.

By the Late Republic such distinctions made little difference. Rituals were composed of several rites, and as Roman ritual grew more elaborate, with sacrifices offered to several deities, a ritual might pass from one form of rite to another. Ritus Graecus was appropriate for deities thought to have been brought from Magna Graecia and thus were used exclusively in rites for Apollo and Hercules. Yet ritus Graecus was also used for Roman Saturninus, and ritus Romanus was instead used for the Greek Castor and Castoris. Rites for Ceres varied as those conducted by the flamen Cereris in the annual blessing of the fields were made in ritus Romanus, where the plebian culti Deorum at Cerealia was performed ritus Graecus, and the sacra Cereris of October was a peregrina sacra. The only real difference that distinguished ritus Romanus from ritus Graecus would appear to have been whether the head was veiled or not. In some depictions of processions celebrants wear either wreathes as though attending ritual in ritus Graecus while others stand beside them in capite velato for ritus Romanus. These differences in dress were possibly because the different celebrants were to take part in different rites during the ritual, and were thus properly prepared to do their part. The introduction of new forms of worship generally entered the religio Romana through the decemviri sacris faciundis consulting the Sibylline Oracles, and while initially the innovations might be associated with ritus Graecus these were eventually adopted for other deities as well, who were traditionally worshipped ritus Romanus. In rituals that included both forms of rites, it no longer mattered what entertainment was offered to the Gods. Ritus Romans and ritus Graecus remained terms used in the religio Romana, but their meaning had lost any real significance.


Our thought for today comes from the Pythagorean Similitudes of Demphilus 28:

"The fruits of the earth spring up once a year, but the fruits of friendship at all times."
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74620 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-03-26
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Piscinus Catone sal.

You mean that the quotes I offered have nothing to do with your Christian concept of resurrection, because you have no understanding of the word's original meaning. This is the reason I asked you to lend us your definition of the term 'resurrection' because, obviously, your narrow views are incompatible with that concept taught in the ancient mysteries. But then, we are speaking of the mystery religions of which yours was orignially only one of many.

I doubt very much that Damascius or any others from his time would think that turning into a pine tree was a "salvation from death" as he saw the Hilaria representing or that the sacerdos who addressed the mystae saw his soteria as lying in a cave with his body uncorruptible as though an Xavier on view for Hindues to marvel at in Gao.

And I don't know what misled you to think that syncretism was some new age invention rather than a concept fostered by the mystery religions.

"I am She that is the natural mother of all life, mistress of all the Elements, the first child of time, supreme deity, chief among powers divine, the Queen of Heaven! I am the principal of the celestial Gods, the light of Goddesses, and the uniform manifestation of all gods and goddesses: I am who governs by my nod the crests of light in the sky. At my will are the planets of the air, the wholesome wafts upon the Seas, and the lamentable silences below disposed. My name, my divinity is venerated throughout all the world in divers manners, in variable rites and in many names. Thus the Phrygians call me Pessinuntia, Mother of the Gods. The Athenians call me Cecropian Minerva. The Cyprians, in their isle home call me Paphian Venus. The Cretan archers call me Diana Dictynna. The three-tongue Sicilians call me Stygian Proserpina. The Eleusians call me the ancient goddess Ceres. Some call me Juno, by others, Bellona, still others Hecate, while some call me Rhamnusia. But those who are enlightened by the earliest rays of that divine sun, principally the Ethiopians which dwell in the Orient, and the Egyptians which are excellent in all kind of ancient lore, and by proper ceremonies are they accustomed to worship me, do call me Queen Isis." ~ Apuleius

Apparently you don't know the meaning of syncretism either.



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> Cato Piscino sal.
>
> Because first your quote says nothing about resurrection, and second the primary sources we have for the story make it quite clear that he either turned into a pine tree (the most popular one) or his body was taken and stuck in a cave, without decomposition but certainly not having been resurrected.
>
> The problem is that when you post information that is incorrect and not supported by academic scholarship, you place an even greater stain on the somewhat dingy reputation Nova Roma has already.
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "marcushoratius" <MHoratius@> wrote:
> >
> > Piscinus Catone sal.
> >
> > You have not answered my question, and here again you make assertions that are not supported by the evidence. How can Attys not be resurrected when Damascius says, "I dreamed that I had become Attys, and that I was being initiated by the Mother of the Gods in the festival called Hilaria, inasmuch as it was intended to signify that our salvation from death had been accomplished." Or your Christian author, Firmicus, quoting what was said at the festivals of Attys, "Have faith, be of good cheer, ye mystae, God is saved! For you likewise there shall come salvation from His suffering."
> >
> > The problem is that you, Cato, have a very narrow view of what resurrection means. The problem is with you, not with what I post about the celebrations held in Rome.
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74621 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-03-26
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Piscinus Catone sal.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> Cato Piscino sal.
>
> This is the heart of the problem that we, as a Respublica, face with people like you in charge of reconstructing the sacra publica; <snipped>

You mean people who aren't Christian, never have been a Judeo-Christian-Muslim, and therefore people who do not think as a Christian? Or at least not your form of Christianity.

Well, I did not stand on a soapbox and declare myself Pontifex Maximus, nor did I need a friend, as dictator, to name me a Pontifex Maximus. Rather, in Nova Roma I was elected by my peers to serve as Pontifex Maximus, just as I was elected Pontifex Maximus in SVR, just as I was asked to advise the Board of Directors of the Temple Religio Romana of California and Oregon, and the Clarian Temple in the Philadelphia area. Somehow I got the impression that I was asked to so serve in this way because I am not a Christian and do not share the views that Christians have towards our religio Romana. I am not about to christianize the sacra publica.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74622 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2010-03-26
Subject: Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival of Attys
Salve,

Original meaning? What pray tell is that? Didn't we all have this argument last year?

-Gualterus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "marcushoratius" <MHoratius@...> wrote:
>
> Piscinus Catone sal.
>
> You mean that the quotes I offered have nothing to do with your Christian concept of resurrection, because you have no understanding of the word's original meaning. ........
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74623 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-03-26
Subject: Syncretism [was Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival
Salve Graece;
yes we did;-) I'm reading Alves, Romanising Oriental Gods & the gist is that these mystery cults: mithras, christianity, attis all cross-influenced on another. Big news;-)

I find it funny, to see Cato work himself up into a lather, I see it as a humorous NR version of the galli & fanatici. Syncretism has a very long history.

The Phoencians had a very ancient presence in Campania, the Etruscians in nearby Eturia, have been revealed genetically to be descended from the Lydians of Anatolia, and Sicily, Magna Graeca, actually all of Southern Italy's inhabitants are genetically related to Greeks.

Champeaux in her discussion of the very ancient italic goddess, Fortuna traces Greek & Phoenician influences, Venus on the Capitoline was Venus Eryx, and this was a temple to Astarte in Eryx Sicily. Magna Mater is a direct import from Anatolia. Regulus was telling me about the research tracing Dionysus to Osiris.

Modern scholarship is now taking into account the sheer amount of travelling that went on in the ancient world.
optime vale
Maior



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gualterus_graecus" <waltms1@...> wrote:
>
>
> Salve,
>
> Original meaning? What pray tell is that? Didn't we all have this argument last year?
>
> -Gualterus
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "marcushoratius" <MHoratius@> wrote:
> >
> > Piscinus Catone sal.
> >
> > You mean that the quotes I offered have nothing to do with your Christian concept of resurrection, because you have no understanding of the word's original meaning. ........
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74624 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-26
Subject: Syncretism [was Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival
Cato Maiori Piscinusque SPD

Maior, you need to read more. This kind of thinking is *exactly* what has been discredited, and it makes Nova Roma look extremely stupid.

Piscinus, it doesn't matter how you got to be pontifex maximus (well, it does, but that's a whole other kettle of fish), the trouble is that you encourage and support the kind of ill-understood and erroneous information that has Maior babbling again.

Syncretism isn't the wholesale adoption of everything from anyone anywhere, and the Romans absolutely did *not* practice it that way.

Vale,

Cato



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Graece;
> yes we did;-) I'm reading Alves, Romanising Oriental Gods & the gist is that these mystery cults: mithras, christianity, attis all cross-influenced on another. Big news;-)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74625 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-03-26
Subject: Syncretism [was Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival
Maior Piscino quiritibusque spd;
here is a review of the book I'm reading right now Romanising Oriental Gods. Myth, Salvation and Ethics in the Cults of Cybele, Isis and Mithras. Translated and edited by Richard Gordon. Religions in the Graeco-Roman World 165. Leiden: Brill, 2008.
And a very nice review.
http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2009/2009-01-39.html

Alvar discusses very acutely how christian scholarship tried to dodge all the similarities they shared with contemporary mystery cults, sure it differs, in the way that the mystery cult of Mithras differs from Attis or Osiris.
vale
Maior

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> Cato Maiori Piscinusque SPD
>
> Maior, you need to read more. This kind of thinking is *exactly* what has been discredited, and it makes Nova Roma look extremely stupid.
>
> Piscinus, it doesn't matter how you got to be pontifex maximus (well, it does, but that's a whole other kettle of fish), the trouble is that you encourage and support the kind of ill-understood and erroneous information that has Maior babbling again.
>
> Syncretism isn't the wholesale adoption of everything from anyone anywhere, and the Romans absolutely did *not* practice it that way.
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> >
> > Salve Graece;
> > yes we did;-) I'm reading Alves, Romanising Oriental Gods & the gist is that these mystery cults: mithras, christianity, attis all cross-influenced on another. Big news;-)
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74626 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2010-03-26
Subject: Syncretism [was Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival
That really isn't the point of Alvar's (not Alves) book. First of all, he reserves most of the discussion of the Christian question until the end--the main bulk of the text is concerned with the theological, ethical and ritual systems of the three cults he highlights, and how they fit into and evolved in the Roman empire. Secondly, he never argues for some free-for-all "cross influence" among them and Christianity. He has a very nuanced position on points of contact and differences. It's a long and dense book; I suggest you work through it first.

-GG

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Graece;
> yes we did;-) I'm reading Alves, Romanising Oriental Gods & the gist is that these mystery cults: mithras, christianity, attis all cross-influenced on another. Big news;-)
>
> I find it funny, to see Cato work himself up into a lather, I see it as a humorous NR version of the galli & fanatici. Syncretism has a very long history.
>
> The Phoencians had a very ancient presence in Campania, the Etruscians in nearby Eturia, have been revealed genetically to be descended from the Lydians of Anatolia, and Sicily, Magna Graeca, actually all of Southern Italy's inhabitants are genetically related to Greeks.
>
> Champeaux in her discussion of the very ancient italic goddess, Fortuna traces Greek & Phoenician influences, Venus on the Capitoline was Venus Eryx, and this was a temple to Astarte in Eryx Sicily. Magna Mater is a direct import from Anatolia. Regulus was telling me about the research tracing Dionysus to Osiris.
>
> Modern scholarship is now taking into account the sheer amount of travelling that went on in the ancient world.
> optime vale
> Maior
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gualterus_graecus" <waltms1@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Salve,
> >
> > Original meaning? What pray tell is that? Didn't we all have this argument last year?
> >
> > -Gualterus
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "marcushoratius" <MHoratius@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Piscinus Catone sal.
> > >
> > > You mean that the quotes I offered have nothing to do with your Christian concept of resurrection, because you have no understanding of the word's original meaning. ........
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74627 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-03-26
Subject: Syncretism [was Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival
Salve Graece;
it is dense it is nuanced, I entirely agree & I have read the end chapter, before the rest. I would enjoy discussing the details with you
I wanted to boil down the end chapter "Oriental Cults and Christianity" to give the gist here for those on the ML who don't have access.
Like this:
"Given all this I do not think that the notion of borrowing (in either direction)is appropriate for the situation in the Roman Empire. it would be better to think in terms of 'commensality'. Each cult found the materials it required in the common trough of current ideas.....Because they developed in a similar religio-cultural context, all these cults show clear parallels to one another, even though Christianity in particular refused to accept the fact. These parallels are best understood as complex transfers both at the formal and conceptual level....
'Commensality' is simply another way of putting the point that Early Christianities were Graeco-Roman cults indeed." p. 420- 421

That's the last sentence of his book, so it is important. I would hope that all those who have access to a library or library loan, read this book. It is very well done.
I really can't wait to read about Magna Mater's cultus as I've read most of the latest work on it & I'm interested in what he has to say.
vale
Maior

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gualterus_graecus" <waltms1@...> wrote:
>
>
> That really isn't the point of Alvar's (not Alves) book. First of all, he reserves most of the discussion of the Christian question until the end--the main bulk of the text is concerned with the theological, ethical and ritual systems of the three cults he highlights, and how they fit into and evolved in the Roman empire. Secondly, he never argues for some free-for-all "cross influence" among them and Christianity. He has a very nuanced position on points of contact and differences. It's a long and dense book; I suggest you work through it first.
>
> -GG
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> >
> > Salve Graece;
> > yes we did;-) I'm reading Alves, Romanising Oriental Gods & the gist is that these mystery cults: mithras, christianity, attis all cross-influenced on another. Big news;-)
> >
> > I find it funny, to see Cato work himself up into a lather, I see it as a humorous NR version of the galli & fanatici. Syncretism has a very long history.
> >
> > The Phoencians had a very ancient presence in Campania, the Etruscians in nearby Eturia, have been revealed genetically to be descended from the Lydians of Anatolia, and Sicily, Magna Graeca, actually all of Southern Italy's inhabitants are genetically related to Greeks.
> >
> > Champeaux in her discussion of the very ancient italic goddess, Fortuna traces Greek & Phoenician influences, Venus on the Capitoline was Venus Eryx, and this was a temple to Astarte in Eryx Sicily. Magna Mater is a direct import from Anatolia. Regulus was telling me about the research tracing Dionysus to Osiris.
> >
> > Modern scholarship is now taking into account the sheer amount of travelling that went on in the ancient world.
> > optime vale
> > Maior
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gualterus_graecus" <waltms1@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Salve,
> > >
> > > Original meaning? What pray tell is that? Didn't we all have this argument last year?
> > >
> > > -Gualterus
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "marcushoratius" <MHoratius@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Piscinus Catone sal.
> > > >
> > > > You mean that the quotes I offered have nothing to do with your Christian concept of resurrection, because you have no understanding of the word's original meaning. ........
> > >
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74628 From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com Date: 2010-03-27
Subject: Reminder Ludi Apollinares, 3/27/2010, 12:00 pm
Reminder from:   Nova-Roma Yahoo! Group
 
Title:   Reminder Ludi Apollinares
 
Date:   Saturday March 27, 2010
Time:   12:00 pm - 1:00 pm
Repeats:   This event repeats every week until Friday July 9, 2010.
Location:   Ludi Apollinares
Notes:   Don't forget to be inspired and start your project for the Ludi honoring Apollo!

http://www.novaroma.org/nr/MMDCCLXIII/Ludi_Apollinares
 
Copyright © 2010  Yahoo! Inc. All Rights Reserved | Terms of Service | Privacy Policy
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74629 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-03-27
Subject: a. d. VI Kalendas Apriles: Lavatio of the Magna Mater
M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus Quiritibus et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit: Di vos salvam et servatam volunt

Hodie est ante diem VI Kalendas Apriles; haec dies comitialis est: Lavatio Magnae Materi; feriae quod eo die C. Caesar vicit Alexandreae.

LAVATIO MAGNAE MATRI

After a day of rest Rome awakened again to a procession. "The taut timbrela thunder as palms beat them, the concave cymbals clash around the statue, the trumpets blare their threatening harsh noise and the Phrygian rhythm of the flute fills hearts with madness (Lucretius, De Rerum Natura 2.618)." The image of the Magna Mater was carried from Her Palatine sanctuary down to where the River Almo (Aquataccio) flows into the Tiber. Her silver image, with the Black Stone placed as Her head, was led through the Porta Capena on a carriage drawn by heifers.

"Barefoot before the carpentum of the Idean Mother walked important persons in procession." ~ Prudentius 10.154-155

"As soon as the silent image of the Goddess, carried through the big towns, favors mortals with Her mute protection, bronze and silver are strewn over the whole road along which She passes, the generous offerings of Her worshippers. It snows roses, which shadow the
Mother and the company escorting Her." ~ Lucretius, De Rerum Natura 2. 626-628

At the River Almo Her high priestess, with her robes pulled up between her legs, stood in the river waiting to receive the Idean
Mother to Her bath. The image of the Idean Mother was taken by Her high priest. In his long silver locks and his purple robes
embroidered with golden thread, he plunged the Black Stone into the pure, rushing waters of the Almo. He dusted the stone with the ashes of sacrifices. Washed, too, were Her carpetum, the sacred vessels, the sacrificial knives, and all of the implements that were used in Her cultus. As with Her first journey, Magna Mater was asked whether She would agree to return to Rome. She expressed Her desire the return to Her Palatine home, and the procession once more carried Her image through the countryside, through towns and villages, spreading Her blessings over the land before entering the City once more. Along the way She was again greeted with flower petals, gold and bronze coins, the sounds of blaring trumpets and clanging cymbals, and by the lithe movements of dancers and pantomimes. Restored to Her residence in Rome, Magna Ideae Mater Deorum showered Her blessings of abundance on the Roman Empire.


AUC 706 / 47 BCE: Julius Caesar is victorious in the Alexandrian War:

Bottled up in Alexandria for months, Caesar's army had become desperate while awaiting supplies and relief. A fleet had been
dispatched; the Egyptians sent a fleet to intercept it and Caesar sent his own fleet to secure his supplies arriving. Mithradates of
Pergamum raised an army of Cilicians, Syrians, and Arabs to march to Caesar's relief. At Ascalon he was joined by a Jewish army under Antipater. Mithradates took Pelusium at the eastern end of the Nile delta. Then he set off for Memphis. Ptolemy led his army out of Alexandria to crush Mithradates, traveling by boat through the many rivers and canals. Meanwhile Caesar marched his own army out of Alexandria, overland, to join Mithradates. Ptolemy had placed himself in a strong position. He was on an isolated rise of land. One flank was on the Nile and guarded by his fleet. A second flank was protected by steep ground, and the third side by marshes. This left only one side that offered Caesar an approach to Ptolemy's camp, and this side was where the Alexandrians had placed their
dispositions. In front of the camp was a village that Ptolemy had fortified, and in front of that, separating Caesar from the
Alexandrians was a canal.

On the first day of his arrival, Caesar immediately sent his army across the canal. And there he remained. The second day saw Caesar
storm the fortified village with his entire army with the intention of moving further on the camp itself. He was halted after taking the
village. Caesar next decided to hit Ptolemy from two sides. The main column would advance in a frontal assault against Ptolemy's best
troops. This column was repulsed. A second column tried to advance on the narrow strip between the enemy camp and the Nile, only to receive missile fire from both the camp on one flank and from Ptolemy's fleet on its other flank. Meanwhile, during these attacks ...

"Caesar, observing that his troops fought with the utmost ardor, and yet made no great progress, on account of the disadvantage of the
ground; and perceiving they had left the highest part of their camp unguarded, because, it being sufficiently fortified by nature, they
had all crowded to the other attacks, partly to have a share in the action, partly to be spectators of the issue; he ordered some cohorts
to wheel round the camp, and gain that ascent: appointing Carfulenus to command them, a man distinguished for bravery and acquaintance with the service. When they had reached the place, as there were but very few to defend it, our men attacked them so briskly that the Alexandrians, terrified by the cries they heard behind them, and seeing themselves attacked both in front and rear, fled in the utmost consternation on all sides. Our men, animated by the confusion of the enemy, entered the camp in several places at the same time, and running down from the higher ground, put a great number of them to the sword. The Alexandrians, endeavoring to escape, threw themselves in crowds over the rampart in the quarter next the river. The foremost tumbling into the ditch, where they were crushed to death, furnished an easy passage for those that followed. It is ascertained that the king escaped from the camp, and was received on board a ship; but by the crowd that followed him, the ship in which he fled was overloaded and sunk." ~ Aulus Hirtius, Commentary on the Alexandrian War 31

Caesar rode back to Alexandria with his cavalry. News of the death of Ptolemy traveled before him so that when he arrived Alexandria surrendered to Caesar without any further fighting.


Today's though is from Marcus Aurelius, Meditations 7.59:

"Look within. Within is the fountain of good, and it will ever bubble up, if thou wilt ever dig."
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74630 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-03-27
Subject: Syncretism [was Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival
Piscinus Catone sal.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> <snipped>
>
> Piscinus, it doesn't matter how you got to be pontifex maximus (well, it does, but that's a whole other kettle of fish), the trouble is that you encourage and support the kind of ill-understood and erroneous information that has Maior babbling again.
>

Cato, the problem is that you are trying to foster your christian views on another's religion. First, you claim Attys turned into a tree because you want to hold out a literal interpretation of an allegorical myth, like fundamentalists christians try to do with their own texts. Secondly, you try to see your own myths as though historical, and thereby unique, rather than what they are - allegorical myths adopted from other religious traditions. There is nothing new to christianity, there was nothing new about it two-thousand years ago, and on this point Celsus wrote nearly two-thousand years ago. Thirdly, you mistake our terminology to mean the same as your christian interpretations when they have different concepts behind them. Tell me. Tell all of us, why you avoid to answer a simple question on your definition of "resurrection"? You don't know about the symbolism of a pine tree or a cedar tree or cypress trees as they appeared in Jewish texts that christians adopted and reinterpreted to fit their own agenda? Tell us why, Cato, that christian art places an anemone into depictions of the crucifixion, the same anemone as was said to have turned mottled with red when Adonis lay on a bed of anemones to die and these flowers became stained with His splattered blood? Tell us how, at Ezekiel 17: 22, the cedar is used in an allegorical fashion, and how christians later took this passage to refer to their mythical Jesus? Or tell us how christians use the Song of Solomon 5: 15, "his countenance is as Lebanon, excellent as the cedars," as a reference to the messiah? Your sacred texts are filled with the allegorical use of trees, some trees that don't even exist in Judea, and yet you are so unable to see that the myth of Attys also has an allegorical use of a pine? Or is it that you are so myopic towards your own myths and denigrate the myths of all other traditions?

What I encourage and support is the development of the religio Romana for Nova Roma as a living religious tradition, based on ancient texts and experience, rather than on what christians have to say. This discussion is not, however, about the religio Romana or about the sacra publica we sacerdotes perform for Nova Roma, but about the foreign, barbarian mystery religions, like christianity, that came out of the eastern provinces with their various myths of dying and resurrecting Gods, of which your Jesus was one of many and a rather late comer. Consider the new book by Brian McLaren, "A New Kind of Christianity," and how it twists your fables so as to dispense with the central rite of your cult - the symbolic cannabalistic feast used to celebrate a human sacrifice, drinking the blood and eating the flesh of your dying god so that his followers might become part of his body. McLaren is now accused by fellow evangelicals of eliminating what makes christianity unique. Only it is not unique at all, not to those of us who are familiar with the myths of other cultures.


> Syncretism isn't the wholesale adoption of everything from anyone anywhere, and the Romans absolutely did *not* practice it that way.
>

True, it is not a wholesale adoption, like christians have done and continue to do today, to distort the religious traditions of others. Syncretism recognizes similar deities as different aspects of a higher deity, just as Isis, Magna Mater, Ops, Rhea, Cybele, Bellona were seen by Greek philosophers to represent the same Terra Mater. And the Romans, beginning very early in their history, saw in the Italic Diove their own Jupiter, and later saw Zeus, and Gallic, and Celtiberian deities as related to Jupiter. Just in the same way that Varro saw the Jewish God in Jerusalem as an aspect of Jupiter. What you describe as syncretism is more what christians do, being "ecletic," in their thirst to justify their version of a very old fable.

What you do each year, Cato, is prove your ignorance not only of our tradition, but also a deep ignorance of your own religious tradition. Adonis is the Greek name of Tammuz, and Tammuz was mourned at the very doors of the temple of Jerusalem, and his birth at Bethlehem celebrated each year on the winter solstice, 25 December. That is not syncretism, Cato, but a very thin veil to disguise the fact that your Jesus is Tammuz, is Adonis, is any number of dying and resurrecting gods known to those eastern, foreign lands.

Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstione peregrina.

>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> >
> > Salve Graece;
> > yes we did;-) I'm reading Alves, Romanising Oriental Gods & the gist is that these mystery cults: mithras, christianity, attis all cross-influenced on another. Big news;-)
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74631 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-27
Subject: Lazarus Saturday
Cato omnibus in foro SPD

Today is historically celebrated as the day upon which Christ brought Lazarus back to life:

"Jesus said, 'Remove the stone.' Martha, the sister of the deceased, said to Him, 'Lord, by this time there will be a stench, for he has been dead four days.' Jesus said to her, 'Did I not say to you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?' So they removed the stone. Then Jesus raised His eyes, and said, 'Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. I knew that You always hear Me; but because of the people standing around I said it, so that they may believe that You sent Me.' When He had said these things, He cried out with a loud voice, 'Lazarus, come forth.' The man who had died came forth, bound hand and foot with wrappings, and his face was wrapped around with a cloth. Jesus said to them, 'Unbind him, and let him go.'" - John 11: 38-43

The New Testament says that Lazarus, after being raised, was sought after by the authorities in Jerusalem in order that they could kill him and stop the news of his raising from spreading. Historic Eastern tradition says that he went to Cyprus and became the first bishop at Kittim (modern Larnaka), where in AD 898 the emperor Leo VI had his remains transferred to Constantinople, from where they were taken during the Fourth "Crusade" in 1204 and brought to France, which may underline the Western tradition says that he went to Provence, and became the first bishop of Marseille.

The fast for the Great Lent is somewhat mitigated today, and the general mood of repentance and sorrow is slightly lifted as the remembrance of Lazarus' raising calls to mind the future raising of all the dead.

Valete!

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74633 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-27
Subject: Syncretism [was Re: a. d. XI Kalendas Apriles: Dies violae, Festival
Cato Piscino sal.

You wrote:

"First, you claim Attys turned into a tree because you want to hold out a
literal interpretation of an allegorical myth, like fundamentalists christians
try to do with their own texts."

First of all, it should have been quite clear to you by now that I am not a
fundamentalist. And no, I say he did so because the sources simply say so, as in:

"Pines, high-girdled, in a leafy crest, the favourite of the Gods' Great Mother
(Grata Deum Matri), since in this tree Attis Cybeleius doffed his human shape
and stiffened in its trunk." - Ovid, Metamorphoses 10.103

In the Hebrew scriptures God is referred to as a whole bunch of things,
allegorically, and the writers quite clearly use "He is like [this or that
thing]..." But the Jews didn't carry around a brood hen or a mountain or a foal
or any number of things to represent Him, unlike the pine tree that was used to
represent Attis; simply because in the tradition, Attis *became* a pine tree.


I don't "avoid" a definition of resurrection. It is simply not what happened to
Attis, or Osiris, or Mithra. Claiming otherwise is simply silly, as it flies
directly in the face of the oldest sources we have for the stories surrounding
all these, and no amount of wishful - or jealous - thinking is going to change
that.

You are lumping together every bit and piece you can find to find some sort of
support for one particular action that, according to ancient sources, simply
didn't happen. You seem desperate to "prove" that Christianity is nothing more
than another one of your grab-bag of religious traditions because you are afraid
that the patchwork quilt of religion that you are passing off as learned cannot
stand unless you stick it onto the side of something else. In doing so you
corrupt or ignore historic sources.

Vale,

Cato

P.S. - I know you do it just to push buttons, but writing "Christian" with a
small "c" is simply bad grammar, not a profound theological statement. It shows
ignorance, not cleverness. GEC
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74634 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-27
Subject: ATTIS
Cato omnibus in foro SPD

I thought after all this, it might be useful to read what the basis of the story of Attis actually is:

"ATYS, ATTYS, ATTES, ATTIS, or ATTIN (Atus, Attus, Attes, Attis or Attin). A son of Nana, and a beautiful shepherd of the Phrygian town, Celaenae. (Theocr. xx. 40; Philostr. Epist. 39; Tertul. de Nat. 1.) His story is related in different ways. According to Ovid (Fast. iv. 221), Cybele loved the beautiful shepherd, and made him her own priest on condition that he should preserve his chastity inviolate. Atys broke the covenant with a nymph, the daughter of the river-god Sangarius, and was thrown by the goddess into a state of madness, in which he unmanned himself. When in consequence he wanted to put an end to his life, Cybele changed him into a firtree, which henceforth became sacred to her, and she commanded that, in future, her priests should be eunuchs. (Compare Arnob. adv. Gent. v. 4, and AGDISTIS.) Another story relates, that Atys, the priest of Cybele, fled into a forest to escape the voluptuous embraces of a Phrygian king, but that he was overtaken, and in the ensuing struggle unmanned his pursuer. The dying king avenged himself by inflicting the same calamity upon Atys. Atys was found by the priests of Cybele under a fir-tree, at the moment he was expiring. They carried him into the temple of the goddess, and endeavoured to restore him to life, but in vain. Cybele ordained that the death of Atys should be bewailed every year in solemn lamentations, and that henceforth her priests should be eunuchs. (Galloi, Galli, Serv. ad Aen. ix. 116; comp. Lobeck, ad Phrynich. p. 273.) A third account says, that Cybele, when exposed by her father, the Phrygian king Maeon, was fed by panthers and brought up by shepherdesses, and that she afterwards secretly married Atys, who was subsequently called Papas. At this moment, Cybele was recognised and kindly received by her parents; but when her connexion with Atys became known to them, Maeon ordered Attis, and the shepherdesses among whom she had lived, to be put to death. Cybele, maddened with grief at this act of her father, traversed the country amid loud lamentations and the sound of cymbals. Phrygia was now visited by an epidemic and scarcity. The oracle commanded that Attis should be buried, and divine honours paid to Cybele; but as the body of the youth was already in a state of decomposition, the funeral honours were paid to an image of him, which was made as a substitute. (Diod. iii. 58, &c.) According to a fourth story related by Pausanias (vii. 17. § 5), Atys was a son of the Phrygian king Calaus, and by nature incapable of propagating his race. When he had grown up, he went to Lydia, where he introduced the worship of Cybele. The grateful goddess conceived such an attachment for him, that Zeus in his anger at it, sent a wild boar into Lydia, which killed many of the inhabitants, and among them Atys also. Atys was believed to be buried in Pessinus under mount Agdistis. (Paus. i. 4. § 5.) He was worshipped in the temples of Cybele in common with this goddess. (vii. 20. § 2; AGDISTIS; Hesych. s. v. Attês.) In works of art he is represented as a shepherd with flute and staff. His worship appears to have been introduced into Greece at a comparatively late period. It is an ingenious opinion of Böttiger (Amalthea, i. p. 353, &c.), that the mythus of Atys represents the twofold character of nature, the male and female, concentrated in one." - Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology

Finally, regarding a so-called "resurrection":

"the sources do not of course express the idea of a 'resurrection' of Attis, of which there is no trace in contemporary sources, but rather the certainty of his survival, either in the form of physical incorruptibility or in that, religiously defined, of his constant presence in the cult beside [Cybele]. Moreover, the mythical image of the body of Attis saved from dissolution and able to grow and move, albeit only in certain features, expresses the idea that his disappearance is neither total nor final." - Vermaseren, M. J., "The Legend of Attis in Greek and Roman Art"

and

"the term "resurrection" is not suitable, for there is really no death, just a cycle of presence and absence - the vegetable connection is confirmed by iconographic evidence." - Gasparro, Sfameni, "Soteriology: Mystic Aspects in the Cult of Cybele and Attis"

Valete!

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74635 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-03-27
Subject: Re: ATTIS
Actually Attis was the son of famous King Midas, founder of the Mermnad
Dynasty in Lydia, Anatolia

Mark Munn discusses the myth of Attis and it's development in a brilliant book
Mark Munn, The Mother of the Gods, Athens, and the Tyranny of Asia. A Study of Sovereignty in Ancient Religion. Berkeley: University of California Press, 2006.
http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2006/2006-10-27.html

"Chapter Three (96-130) explores the transference of the Mother from a Phrygian into a Lydian context, after the incorporation of Phrygia into the Mermnad kingdom of Lydia. Munn discusses the conception that the power of the tyrant depends on his copulating with a Goddess or her likeness in order to give birth to the future sovereign. He explores stories of copulation between sovereigns and goddesses, the relationship between sovereigns and their concubines, and the relationship between Aphrodite and Kybele. Munn shows that the origins of Phrygian and Lydian sovereignty are attributed to such a conception. The stories of how Gordius acquired kingship by taking as a wife a beautiful girl who gave birth to Midas and was posthumously divinised, or of Gyges' acquisition of Lydian kingship through the beautiful wife of Candaules are examples of this conception. Munn also reinterprets the Homeric Hymn to Aphrodite by arguing that the Lydian dynasty used the story of Aeneas' birth from Aphrodite in order to justify their claim to power.

Chapter Four (131-77) looks at the connection between mortality, divinity and sovereignty. Munn explores the concept of the sacred marriage between the sovereign and the Goddess or her mortal representatives that leads to sexual perversion and incest; the stories about the grief of the Goddess for the mortality of her beloved; and the sacrifice of beloved objects, in order to achieve the Goddess's goodwill and support. Using these concepts and motifs Munn explores in a fascinating way the stories told about Greek tyrants. Stories like Periander's relationship with his dead wife and his mother, Thrasybulus' advice to Periander to cut off the tallest ears of grain, or Polycrates' sacrifice of his ring are re-interpreted in order to show the extent to which they accord with the Eastern conceptions of divinity and sovereignty."

This is how myth is interpreted!
May the Great Idean Mother watch over us!
May she be propitious to Nova Roma!
optime vale
Maior



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> Cato omnibus in foro SPD
>
> I thought after all this, it might be useful to read what the basis of the story of Attis actually is:
>
> "ATYS, ATTYS, ATTES, ATTIS, or ATTIN (Atus, Attus, Attes, Attis or Attin). A son of Nana, and a beautiful shepherd of the Phrygian town, Celaenae. (Theocr. xx. 40; Philostr. Epist. 39; Tertul. de Nat. 1.) His story is related in different ways. According to Ovid (Fast. iv. 221), Cybele loved the beautiful shepherd, and made him her own priest on condition that he should preserve his chastity inviolate. Atys broke the covenant with a nymph, the daughter of the river-god Sangarius, and was thrown by the goddess into a state of madness, in which he unmanned himself. When in consequence he wanted to put an end to his life, Cybele changed him into a firtree, which henceforth became sacred to her, and she commanded that, in future, her priests should be eunuchs. (Compare Arnob. adv. Gent. v. 4, and AGDISTIS.) Another story relates, that Atys, the priest of Cybele, fled into a forest to escape the voluptuous embraces of a Phrygian king, but that he was overtaken, and in the ensuing struggle unmanned his pursuer. The dying king avenged himself by inflicting the same calamity upon Atys. Atys was found by the priests of Cybele under a fir-tree, at the moment he was expiring. They carried him into the temple of the goddess, and endeavoured to restore him to life, but in vain. Cybele ordained that the death of Atys should be bewailed every year in solemn lamentations, and that henceforth her priests should be eunuchs. (Galloi, Galli, Serv. ad Aen. ix. 116; comp. Lobeck, ad Phrynich. p. 273.) A third account says, that Cybele, when exposed by her father, the Phrygian king Maeon, was fed by panthers and brought up by shepherdesses, and that she afterwards secretly married Atys, who was subsequently called Papas. At this moment, Cybele was recognised and kindly received by her parents; but when her connexion with Atys became known to them, Maeon ordered Attis, and the shepherdesses among whom she had lived, to be put to death. Cybele, maddened with grief at this act of her father, traversed the country amid loud lamentations and the sound of cymbals. Phrygia was now visited by an epidemic and scarcity. The oracle commanded that Attis should be buried, and divine honours paid to Cybele; but as the body of the youth was already in a state of decomposition, the funeral honours were paid to an image of him, which was made as a substitute. (Diod. iii. 58, &c.) According to a fourth story related by Pausanias (vii. 17. § 5), Atys was a son of the Phrygian king Calaus, and by nature incapable of propagating his race. When he had grown up, he went to Lydia, where he introduced the worship of Cybele. The grateful goddess conceived such an attachment for him, that Zeus in his anger at it, sent a wild boar into Lydia, which killed many of the inhabitants, and among them Atys also. Atys was believed to be buried in Pessinus under mount Agdistis. (Paus. i. 4. § 5.) He was worshipped in the temples of Cybele in common with this goddess. (vii. 20. § 2; AGDISTIS; Hesych. s. v. Attês.) In works of art he is represented as a shepherd with flute and staff. His worship appears to have been introduced into Greece at a comparatively late period. It is an ingenious opinion of Böttiger (Amalthea, i. p. 353, &c.), that the mythus of Atys represents the twofold character of nature, the male and female, concentrated in one." - Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology
>
> Finally, regarding a so-called "resurrection":
>
> "the sources do not of course express the idea of a 'resurrection' of Attis, of which there is no trace in contemporary sources, but rather the certainty of his survival, either in the form of physical incorruptibility or in that, religiously defined, of his constant presence in the cult beside [Cybele]. Moreover, the mythical image of the body of Attis saved from dissolution and able to grow and move, albeit only in certain features, expresses the idea that his disappearance is neither total nor final." - Vermaseren, M. J., "The Legend of Attis in Greek and Roman Art"
>
> and
>
> "the term "resurrection" is not suitable, for there is really no death, just a cycle of presence and absence - the vegetable connection is confirmed by iconographic evidence." - Gasparro, Sfameni, "Soteriology: Mystic Aspects in the Cult of Cybele and Attis"
>
> Valete!
>
> Cato
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74636 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-27
Subject: Re: ATTIS
Cato Maiori sal.

They are not the same person, though:

"A son of Manes, king of the Maeonians, from whose son Lydus, his son and successor, the Maeonians were afterwards called Lydians. (Herod. i. 7, vii. 74.) Herodotus (i. 94; comp. Dionys. Hal. A. R. i. 26, 28; Tacit. Annal. iv. 55) mentions Tyrrhenus as another son of Atys; and in another passage (iv. 45), he speaks of Cotys as the son of Manes, instead of Atys."

Regarding the "spirit of Attis" I think, again, that you are creating a whole mythology that is unsupported by the primary sources. As Umberto Eco famously and delightfully lampooned in "Foucault's Pendulum", if you start from the premise that all things are connected, you will certainly find the connections you're looking for.

Vale,

Cato



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> Actually Attis was the son of famous King Midas, founder of the Mermnad
> Dynasty in Lydia, Anatolia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74637 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-03-27
Subject: Re: ATTIS
"Historically speaking, however, we have to do with a situation of competition between different options, closely related in that they stemmed from analagous cultural systems in the eastern Mediterranean and were subject to the same pressures. Christianity and the mysteries resemble one another because they offered analogous solutions to the needs generated in certain sectors of society of the Roman Empire.

'The Epistle of Aristeas, the Acts of the Apostles, and the Golden Ass by Apuleius, here especially the eleventh book, are only a few of many documents to demonstrate missionary interest in the well-being of all, where the propagated religion is proposed as the major intrument for bringing this about and for serving the best interests of of the individual as well." . J. Alvar p. 13 Romanizing Oriental Gods: Myth, Salvation and Ethics in the Cults of Cybele, Isis and Mithras

quote from: D. Georgi, Socio-economic Reasons for the 'Divine Man' as a Propagandistic Pattern, in Schuessler Fiorenze 1976, 27-42 at 36.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> Cato Maiori sal.
>
> They are not the same person, though:
>
> "A son of Manes, king of the Maeonians, from whose son Lydus, his son and successor, the Maeonians were afterwards called Lydians. (Herod. i. 7, vii. 74.) Herodotus (i. 94; comp. Dionys. Hal. A. R. i. 26, 28; Tacit. Annal. iv. 55) mentions Tyrrhenus as another son of Atys; and in another passage (iv. 45), he speaks of Cotys as the son of Manes, instead of Atys."
>
> Regarding the "spirit of Attis" I think, again, that you are creating a whole mythology that is unsupported by the primary sources. As Umberto Eco famously and delightfully lampooned in "Foucault's Pendulum", if you start from the premise that all things are connected, you will certainly find the connections you're looking for.
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> >
> > Actually Attis was the son of famous King Midas, founder of the Mermnad
> > Dynasty in Lydia, Anatolia
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74638 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-27
Subject: Re: ATTIS
Cato Maiori sal.

Using this quote is the equivalent of saying that because both the Chinese of the Tang Dynasty used buckets to carry water and the Seneca Indians used buckets to carry water, their cultures must necessarily be dependent upon each other.

Vale,

Cato


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> "Historically speaking, however, we have to do with a situation of competition between different options, closely related in that they stemmed from analagous cultural systems in the eastern Mediterranean and were subject to the same pressures. Christianity and the mysteries resemble one another because they offered analogous solutions to the needs generated in certain sectors of society of the Roman Empire.
>
> 'The Epistle of Aristeas, the Acts of the Apostles, and the Golden Ass by Apuleius, here especially the eleventh book, are only a few of many documents to demonstrate missionary interest in the well-being of all, where the propagated religion is proposed as the major intrument for bringing this about and for serving the best interests of of the individual as well." . J. Alvar p. 13 Romanizing Oriental Gods: Myth, Salvation and Ethics in the Cults of Cybele, Isis and Mithras
>
> quote from: D. Georgi, Socio-economic Reasons for the 'Divine Man' as a Propagandistic Pattern, in Schuessler Fiorenze 1976, 27-42 at 36.
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> >
> > Cato Maiori sal.
> >
> > They are not the same person, though:
> >
> > "A son of Manes, king of the Maeonians, from whose son Lydus, his son and successor, the Maeonians were afterwards called Lydians. (Herod. i. 7, vii. 74.) Herodotus (i. 94; comp. Dionys. Hal. A. R. i. 26, 28; Tacit. Annal. iv. 55) mentions Tyrrhenus as another son of Atys; and in another passage (iv. 45), he speaks of Cotys as the son of Manes, instead of Atys."
> >
> > Regarding the "spirit of Attis" I think, again, that you are creating a whole mythology that is unsupported by the primary sources. As Umberto Eco famously and delightfully lampooned in "Foucault's Pendulum", if you start from the premise that all things are connected, you will certainly find the connections you're looking for.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Cato
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Actually Attis was the son of famous King Midas, founder of the Mermnad
> > > Dynasty in Lydia, Anatolia
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74639 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2010-03-27
Subject: Re: ATTIS
But, that's not what the quote means; rather it means the religious systems look similar because they were conditioned by similar social-forces when responding to similar questions. It allows for similarity without dependence.

-GG

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> Cato Maiori sal.
>
> Using this quote is the equivalent of saying that because both the Chinese of the Tang Dynasty used buckets to carry water and the Seneca Indians used buckets to carry water, their cultures must necessarily be dependent upon each other.
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> >
> > "Historically speaking, however, we have to do with a situation of competition between different options, closely related in that they stemmed from analagous cultural systems in the eastern Mediterranean and were subject to the same pressures. Christianity and the mysteries resemble one another because they offered analogous solutions to the needs generated in certain sectors of society of the Roman Empire.
> >
> > 'The Epistle of Aristeas, the Acts of the Apostles, and the Golden Ass by Apuleius, here especially the eleventh book, are only a few of many documents to demonstrate missionary interest in the well-being of all, where the propagated religion is proposed as the major intrument for bringing this about and for serving the best interests of of the individual as well." . J. Alvar p. 13 Romanizing Oriental Gods: Myth, Salvation and Ethics in the Cults of Cybele, Isis and Mithras
> >
> > quote from: D. Georgi, Socio-economic Reasons for the 'Divine Man' as a Propagandistic Pattern, in Schuessler Fiorenze 1976, 27-42 at 36.
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Cato Maiori sal.
> > >
> > > They are not the same person, though:
> > >
> > > "A son of Manes, king of the Maeonians, from whose son Lydus, his son and successor, the Maeonians were afterwards called Lydians. (Herod. i. 7, vii. 74.) Herodotus (i. 94; comp. Dionys. Hal. A. R. i. 26, 28; Tacit. Annal. iv. 55) mentions Tyrrhenus as another son of Atys; and in another passage (iv. 45), he speaks of Cotys as the son of Manes, instead of Atys."
> > >
> > > Regarding the "spirit of Attis" I think, again, that you are creating a whole mythology that is unsupported by the primary sources. As Umberto Eco famously and delightfully lampooned in "Foucault's Pendulum", if you start from the premise that all things are connected, you will certainly find the connections you're looking for.
> > >
> > > Vale,
> > >
> > > Cato
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Actually Attis was the son of famous King Midas, founder of the Mermnad
> > > > Dynasty in Lydia, Anatolia
> > >
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74640 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-27
Subject: Re: ATTIS
Cato Graeco sal.

True, but following the logical trajectory of the argument it *seems* to have been used to show that they *are* dependent on each other. But I could be wrong.

Vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gualterus_graecus" <waltms1@...> wrote:
>
>
> But, that's not what the quote means; rather it means the religious systems look similar because they were conditioned by similar social-forces when responding to similar questions. It allows for similarity without dependence.
>
> -GG
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> >
> > Cato Maiori sal.
> >
> > Using this quote is the equivalent of saying that because both the Chinese of the Tang Dynasty used buckets to carry water and the Seneca Indians used buckets to carry water, their cultures must necessarily be dependent upon each other.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Cato
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > >
> > > "Historically speaking, however, we have to do with a situation of competition between different options, closely related in that they stemmed from analagous cultural systems in the eastern Mediterranean and were subject to the same pressures. Christianity and the mysteries resemble one another because they offered analogous solutions to the needs generated in certain sectors of society of the Roman Empire.
> > >
> > > 'The Epistle of Aristeas, the Acts of the Apostles, and the Golden Ass by Apuleius, here especially the eleventh book, are only a few of many documents to demonstrate missionary interest in the well-being of all, where the propagated religion is proposed as the major intrument for bringing this about and for serving the best interests of of the individual as well." . J. Alvar p. 13 Romanizing Oriental Gods: Myth, Salvation and Ethics in the Cults of Cybele, Isis and Mithras
> > >
> > > quote from: D. Georgi, Socio-economic Reasons for the 'Divine Man' as a Propagandistic Pattern, in Schuessler Fiorenze 1976, 27-42 at 36.
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Cato Maiori sal.
> > > >
> > > > They are not the same person, though:
> > > >
> > > > "A son of Manes, king of the Maeonians, from whose son Lydus, his son and successor, the Maeonians were afterwards called Lydians. (Herod. i. 7, vii. 74.) Herodotus (i. 94; comp. Dionys. Hal. A. R. i. 26, 28; Tacit. Annal. iv. 55) mentions Tyrrhenus as another son of Atys; and in another passage (iv. 45), he speaks of Cotys as the son of Manes, instead of Atys."
> > > >
> > > > Regarding the "spirit of Attis" I think, again, that you are creating a whole mythology that is unsupported by the primary sources. As Umberto Eco famously and delightfully lampooned in "Foucault's Pendulum", if you start from the premise that all things are connected, you will certainly find the connections you're looking for.
> > > >
> > > > Vale,
> > > >
> > > > Cato
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Actually Attis was the son of famous King Midas, founder of the Mermnad
> > > > > Dynasty in Lydia, Anatolia
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74641 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2010-03-27
Subject: Re: ATTIS
You mean Maior's original statement about the gist of Alvar's book?

-GG

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> Cato Graeco sal.
>
> True, but following the logical trajectory of the argument it *seems* to have been used to show that they *are* dependent on each other. But I could be wrong.
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gualterus_graecus" <waltms1@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > But, that's not what the quote means; rather it means the religious systems look similar because they were conditioned by similar social-forces when responding to similar questions. It allows for similarity without dependence.
> >
> > -GG
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Cato Maiori sal.
> > >
> > > Using this quote is the equivalent of saying that because both the Chinese of the Tang Dynasty used buckets to carry water and the Seneca Indians used buckets to carry water, their cultures must necessarily be dependent upon each other.
> > >
> > > Vale,
> > >
> > > Cato
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > "Historically speaking, however, we have to do with a situation of competition between different options, closely related in that they stemmed from analagous cultural systems in the eastern Mediterranean and were subject to the same pressures. Christianity and the mysteries resemble one another because they offered analogous solutions to the needs generated in certain sectors of society of the Roman Empire.
> > > >
> > > > 'The Epistle of Aristeas, the Acts of the Apostles, and the Golden Ass by Apuleius, here especially the eleventh book, are only a few of many documents to demonstrate missionary interest in the well-being of all, where the propagated religion is proposed as the major intrument for bringing this about and for serving the best interests of of the individual as well." . J. Alvar p. 13 Romanizing Oriental Gods: Myth, Salvation and Ethics in the Cults of Cybele, Isis and Mithras
> > > >
> > > > quote from: D. Georgi, Socio-economic Reasons for the 'Divine Man' as a Propagandistic Pattern, in Schuessler Fiorenze 1976, 27-42 at 36.
> > > >
> > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Cato Maiori sal.
> > > > >
> > > > > They are not the same person, though:
> > > > >
> > > > > "A son of Manes, king of the Maeonians, from whose son Lydus, his son and successor, the Maeonians were afterwards called Lydians. (Herod. i. 7, vii. 74.) Herodotus (i. 94; comp. Dionys. Hal. A. R. i. 26, 28; Tacit. Annal. iv. 55) mentions Tyrrhenus as another son of Atys; and in another passage (iv. 45), he speaks of Cotys as the son of Manes, instead of Atys."
> > > > >
> > > > > Regarding the "spirit of Attis" I think, again, that you are creating a whole mythology that is unsupported by the primary sources. As Umberto Eco famously and delightfully lampooned in "Foucault's Pendulum", if you start from the premise that all things are connected, you will certainly find the connections you're looking for.
> > > > >
> > > > > Vale,
> > > > >
> > > > > Cato
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Actually Attis was the son of famous King Midas, founder of the Mermnad
> > > > > > Dynasty in Lydia, Anatolia
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74642 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-03-27
Subject: Re: ATTIS
Salve;
Alvar's books is very good and dense.Strong in his use of the term early christianities, and understanding that the mysteries and christianities change over time.

His discussion of resurrection and Attis really fine, a weakness that I can put my finger on is he ignores Mark Munn's work, though he entirely agrees that the mystery of Cybele and Attis is a hierogamy. And thus ignores analysing the deep myth as one of near eastern kingship, though he mentions Frankfort.... How can you discuss the commonalities these cults shared if you don't discuss near eastern religion, so he relies too much on Frazier.

Well I find his discussion of christian apologetics very helpful, analysing the arguments and then disposing of them.
vale
Maior



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gualterus_graecus" <waltms1@...> wrote:
>
>
> You mean Maior's original statement about the gist of Alvar's book?
>
> -GG
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> >
> > Cato Graeco sal.
> >
> > True, but following the logical trajectory of the argument it *seems* to have been used to show that they *are* dependent on each other. But I could be wrong.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Cato
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gualterus_graecus" <waltms1@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > But, that's not what the quote means; rather it means the religious systems look similar because they were conditioned by similar social-forces when responding to similar questions. It allows for similarity without dependence.
> > >
> > > -GG
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Cato Maiori sal.
> > > >
> > > > Using this quote is the equivalent of saying that because both the Chinese of the Tang Dynasty used buckets to carry water and the Seneca Indians used buckets to carry water, their cultures must necessarily be dependent upon each other.
> > > >
> > > > Vale,
> > > >
> > > > Cato
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > "Historically speaking, however, we have to do with a situation of competition between different options, closely related in that they stemmed from analagous cultural systems in the eastern Mediterranean and were subject to the same pressures. Christianity and the mysteries resemble one another because they offered analogous solutions to the needs generated in certain sectors of society of the Roman Empire.
> > > > >
> > > > > 'The Epistle of Aristeas, the Acts of the Apostles, and the Golden Ass by Apuleius, here especially the eleventh book, are only a few of many documents to demonstrate missionary interest in the well-being of all, where the propagated religion is proposed as the major intrument for bringing this about and for serving the best interests of of the individual as well." . J. Alvar p. 13 Romanizing Oriental Gods: Myth, Salvation and Ethics in the Cults of Cybele, Isis and Mithras
> > > > >
> > > > > quote from: D. Georgi, Socio-economic Reasons for the 'Divine Man' as a Propagandistic Pattern, in Schuessler Fiorenze 1976, 27-42 at 36.
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cato Maiori sal.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > They are not the same person, though:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "A son of Manes, king of the Maeonians, from whose son Lydus, his son and successor, the Maeonians were afterwards called Lydians. (Herod. i. 7, vii. 74.) Herodotus (i. 94; comp. Dionys. Hal. A. R. i. 26, 28; Tacit. Annal. iv. 55) mentions Tyrrhenus as another son of Atys; and in another passage (iv. 45), he speaks of Cotys as the son of Manes, instead of Atys."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regarding the "spirit of Attis" I think, again, that you are creating a whole mythology that is unsupported by the primary sources. As Umberto Eco famously and delightfully lampooned in "Foucault's Pendulum", if you start from the premise that all things are connected, you will certainly find the connections you're looking for.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Vale,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cato
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Actually Attis was the son of famous King Midas, founder of the Mermnad
> > > > > > > Dynasty in Lydia, Anatolia
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74643 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-27
Subject: Re: ATTIS
Cato Graeco sal.

That in particular, but in general I'm thinking of the whole discussion that's been going on. It's no secret that there are great arching themes in religious history - and all cultural histories, for that matter. Humans act and react in an finite variety of ways in response to a finite variety of general experiences.

For example, the fact that all human cultures have depictions of, say, a Mother and Child as a motif cannot possibly surprise anyone. The difference - crucial in my mind - is what these depictions *meant* for those who made them. Theologically, a depiction of Isis and Horus did not mean to the Egyptians anything like what a depiction of the Theotokos and Christ means to Christians, but they are both recognizable images of an archetype.

Likewise for the rebirth of nature at springtime; Attis, Eostre, Demeter, etc., all reflect the wonder and joy that humans feel as they see the earth coming "back to life" in one way or another after its deep hibernation under the cold of winter. But the Resurrection of Christ is not part of that recycling natural order; rather it is a specific super-natural event that directly ties in to the celebration of the rescue of Israel from bondage in Egypt by the direct intervention of the Divine in human affairs.

So to try to pretend - in the face of scholarship that shows fairly clearly otherwise - that all these things are, because of some similarities in their outward appearances, *by necessity* merely mirrors of each other is, I think, incorrect, and does no justice to any of the traditions involved.

Vale,

Cato


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gualterus_graecus" <waltms1@...> wrote:
>
>
> You mean Maior's original statement about the gist of Alvar's book?
>
> -GG
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74644 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-03-28
Subject: Re: ATTIS
"In their eagerness to confute those who thought they could see certain similarities between the two [oriental cults and christianity], many older writers (followed by contemporary fundamentalists) highlighted only those that would affirm the uniqueness of Christianity."

In so doing, they overlooked the fact that there were other unique institutions, namely the very cults of Cybele, Isis and Mithras. In their hurry to defend an uncontaminated Christianity, such scholars failed to note the irrationality of what they were about. In order to investigate a given historical reality, historical methods demand the use of certain logical tools, among them comparison, that is the systematic formulation of analogies, which make it possible to specify the main features or characteristics, and on this basis to contextualise the topic within an explicit framework."

To deny that Christianity has anything in common with other cults of the Roman Empire (which even Apologists acknowledged) is to refuse the
entire logic of the taxonomic process and its epistemological value. It is simply another version of the angel's command to stop thinking."
Jaime Alvar Romanising Oriental Gods p. 385"

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> Cato Graeco sal.
>
> That in particular, but in general I'm thinking of the whole discussion that's been going on. It's no secret that there are great arching themes in religious history - and all cultural histories, for that matter. Humans act and react in an finite variety of ways in response to a finite variety of general experiences.
>
> For example, the fact that all human cultures have depictions of, say, a Mother and Child as a motif cannot possibly surprise anyone. The difference - crucial in my mind - is what these depictions *meant* for those who made them. Theologically, a depiction of Isis and Horus did not mean to the Egyptians anything like what a depiction of the Theotokos and Christ means to Christians, but they are both recognizable images of an archetype.
>
> Likewise for the rebirth of nature at springtime; Attis, Eostre, Demeter, etc., all reflect the wonder and joy that humans feel as they see the earth coming "back to life" in one way or another after its deep hibernation under the cold of winter. But the Resurrection of Christ is not part of that recycling natural order; rather it is a specific super-natural event that directly ties in to the celebration of the rescue of Israel from bondage in Egypt by the direct intervention of the Divine in human affairs.
>
> So to try to pretend - in the face of scholarship that shows fairly clearly otherwise - that all these things are, because of some similarities in their outward appearances, *by necessity* merely mirrors of each other is, I think, incorrect, and does no justice to any of the traditions involved.
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gualterus_graecus" <waltms1@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > You mean Maior's original statement about the gist of Alvar's book?
> >
> > -GG
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74645 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-28
Subject: Re: ATTIS
Cato Maiori sal.

In your haste, your quote only shows support for the very argument I am making. You need to read what I wrote much more carefully, Maior.

"[the Attis cult] did modify itself in significant ways with the passing of the years... [and does] seem to have been provoked by a need to respond to the challenge of Christianity." - Fear, A. T. "Cybele and Christ" in "Cybele, Attis and Related Cults" 41-42 (1996)

"all of our information on parallels comes from early Christian writers...[who had] a tendency to add more and more complicated theories to the Phrygian cult in the course of time." - Vermaseren, M. J., "Cybele and Attis: The Myth and the Cult" 182 (1977)

"the sources show an evolution in the Attis cult in response to Christianity." - Gasparro, Sfameni, "Soteriology: Mystic Aspects in the Cult of Cybele and Attis" 106 (1995)

The earliest reference to the six days' of celebration of Attis' cult comes from a calendar dated AD 354, just a little bit later (30 years or so) than Christianity becoming the State cult of the empire. The only one attested to earlier is the celebration on March 27th, on a calendar dated to AD 50.

Vale,

Cato




--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> "In their eagerness to confute those who thought they could see certain similarities between the two [oriental cults and christianity], many older writers (followed by contemporary fundamentalists) highlighted only those that would affirm the uniqueness of Christianity."
>
> In so doing, they overlooked the fact that there were other unique institutions, namely the very cults of Cybele, Isis and Mithras. In their hurry to defend an uncontaminated Christianity, such scholars failed to note the irrationality of what they were about. In order to investigate a given historical reality, historical methods demand the use of certain logical tools, among them comparison, that is the systematic formulation of analogies, which make it possible to specify the main features or characteristics, and on this basis to contextualise the topic within an explicit framework."
>
> To deny that Christianity has anything in common with other cults of the Roman Empire (which even Apologists acknowledged) is to refuse the
> entire logic of the taxonomic process and its epistemological value. It is simply another version of the angel's command to stop thinking."
> Jaime Alvar Romanising Oriental Gods p. 385"
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> >
> > Cato Graeco sal.
> >
> > That in particular, but in general I'm thinking of the whole discussion that's been going on. It's no secret that there are great arching themes in religious history - and all cultural histories, for that matter. Humans act and react in an finite variety of ways in response to a finite variety of general experiences.
> >
> > For example, the fact that all human cultures have depictions of, say, a Mother and Child as a motif cannot possibly surprise anyone. The difference - crucial in my mind - is what these depictions *meant* for those who made them. Theologically, a depiction of Isis and Horus did not mean to the Egyptians anything like what a depiction of the Theotokos and Christ means to Christians, but they are both recognizable images of an archetype.
> >
> > Likewise for the rebirth of nature at springtime; Attis, Eostre, Demeter, etc., all reflect the wonder and joy that humans feel as they see the earth coming "back to life" in one way or another after its deep hibernation under the cold of winter. But the Resurrection of Christ is not part of that recycling natural order; rather it is a specific super-natural event that directly ties in to the celebration of the rescue of Israel from bondage in Egypt by the direct intervention of the Divine in human affairs.
> >
> > So to try to pretend - in the face of scholarship that shows fairly clearly otherwise - that all these things are, because of some similarities in their outward appearances, *by necessity* merely mirrors of each other is, I think, incorrect, and does no justice to any of the traditions involved.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Cato
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gualterus_graecus" <waltms1@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > You mean Maior's original statement about the gist of Alvar's book?
> > >
> > > -GG
> > >
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74646 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-03-28
Subject: Re: ATTIS
The recently discovered defixione from Gross-Gerau dated late-first/early second century C.E. appeals to Attis as
deum maxsime Atthis tyranne
"Until the discovery of this text no one would have credited that Attis could have been addressed in such a manner at this date..."p. 73

It really doesn't matter if it is Attis, Osiris, Mithras or Jesus, worship whatever mystery cult makes you happy.
vale in pacem Matris
Maior



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> Cato Maiori sal.
>
> In your haste, your quote only shows support for the very argument I am making. You need to read what I wrote much more carefully, Maior.
>
> "[the Attis cult] did modify itself in significant ways with the passing of the years... [and does] seem to have been provoked by a need to respond to the challenge of Christianity." - Fear, A. T. "Cybele and Christ" in "Cybele, Attis and Related Cults" 41-42 (1996)
>
> "all of our information on parallels comes from early Christian writers...[who had] a tendency to add more and more complicated theories to the Phrygian cult in the course of time." - Vermaseren, M. J., "Cybele and Attis: The Myth and the Cult" 182 (1977)
>
> "the sources show an evolution in the Attis cult in response to Christianity." - Gasparro, Sfameni, "Soteriology: Mystic Aspects in the Cult of Cybele and Attis" 106 (1995)
>
> The earliest reference to the six days' of celebration of Attis' cult comes from a calendar dated AD 354, just a little bit later (30 years or so) than Christianity becoming the State cult of the empire. The only one attested to earlier is the celebration on March 27th, on a calendar dated to AD 50.
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> >
> > "In their eagerness to confute those who thought they could see certain similarities between the two [oriental cults and christianity], many older writers (followed by contemporary fundamentalists) highlighted only those that would affirm the uniqueness of Christianity."
> >
> > In so doing, they overlooked the fact that there were other unique institutions, namely the very cults of Cybele, Isis and Mithras. In their hurry to defend an uncontaminated Christianity, such scholars failed to note the irrationality of what they were about. In order to investigate a given historical reality, historical methods demand the use of certain logical tools, among them comparison, that is the systematic formulation of analogies, which make it possible to specify the main features or characteristics, and on this basis to contextualise the topic within an explicit framework."
> >
> > To deny that Christianity has anything in common with other cults of the Roman Empire (which even Apologists acknowledged) is to refuse the
> > entire logic of the taxonomic process and its epistemological value. It is simply another version of the angel's command to stop thinking."
> > Jaime Alvar Romanising Oriental Gods p. 385"
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Cato Graeco sal.
> > >
> > > That in particular, but in general I'm thinking of the whole discussion that's been going on. It's no secret that there are great arching themes in religious history - and all cultural histories, for that matter. Humans act and react in an finite variety of ways in response to a finite variety of general experiences.
> > >
> > > For example, the fact that all human cultures have depictions of, say, a Mother and Child as a motif cannot possibly surprise anyone. The difference - crucial in my mind - is what these depictions *meant* for those who made them. Theologically, a depiction of Isis and Horus did not mean to the Egyptians anything like what a depiction of the Theotokos and Christ means to Christians, but they are both recognizable images of an archetype.
> > >
> > > Likewise for the rebirth of nature at springtime; Attis, Eostre, Demeter, etc., all reflect the wonder and joy that humans feel as they see the earth coming "back to life" in one way or another after its deep hibernation under the cold of winter. But the Resurrection of Christ is not part of that recycling natural order; rather it is a specific super-natural event that directly ties in to the celebration of the rescue of Israel from bondage in Egypt by the direct intervention of the Divine in human affairs.
> > >
> > > So to try to pretend - in the face of scholarship that shows fairly clearly otherwise - that all these things are, because of some similarities in their outward appearances, *by necessity* merely mirrors of each other is, I think, incorrect, and does no justice to any of the traditions involved.
> > >
> > > Vale,
> > >
> > > Cato
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gualterus_graecus" <waltms1@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > You mean Maior's original statement about the gist of Alvar's book?
> > > >
> > > > -GG
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74647 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2010-03-28
Subject: Re: ATTIS
Well, I must admit that I have not followed the entire thread since it seemed like a big repeat of last year's argument and I figured there's no point in retyping what already is in the archives.

But, that aside, you're right that these cults (including Christianity) are not "merely mirrors of each other"--and no contemporary scholar would attempt to argue that. That is certainly not what Alvar argues for. Neither does he argue that Christianity is some banal copy or derivation of the other cults. To the extent that Piscinus and others here may want to see Christianity as a second order derivation from the other mystery cults, they are, of course, wrong.

-GG

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> Cato Graeco sal.
>
> That in particular, but in general I'm thinking of the whole discussion that's been going on. It's no secret that there are great arching themes in religious history - and all cultural histories, for that matter. Humans act and react in an finite variety of ways in response to a finite variety of general experiences.
>
> For example, the fact that all human cultures have depictions of, say, a Mother and Child as a motif cannot possibly surprise anyone. The difference - crucial in my mind - is what these depictions *meant* for those who made them. Theologically, a depiction of Isis and Horus did not mean to the Egyptians anything like what a depiction of the Theotokos and Christ means to Christians, but they are both recognizable images of an archetype.
>
> Likewise for the rebirth of nature at springtime; Attis, Eostre, Demeter, etc., all reflect the wonder and joy that humans feel as they see the earth coming "back to life" in one way or another after its deep hibernation under the cold of winter. But the Resurrection of Christ is not part of that recycling natural order; rather it is a specific super-natural event that directly ties in to the celebration of the rescue of Israel from bondage in Egypt by the direct intervention of the Divine in human affairs.
>
> So to try to pretend - in the face of scholarship that shows fairly clearly otherwise - that all these things are, because of some similarities in their outward appearances, *by necessity* merely mirrors of each other is, I think, incorrect, and does no justice to any of the traditions involved.
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gualterus_graecus" <waltms1@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > You mean Maior's original statement about the gist of Alvar's book?
> >
> > -GG
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74648 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-03-28
Subject: a. d. V Kalendas Apriles: Sol et Luna; Didius Julianus
M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus Quiritibus et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit: Ego vos iubeo bono animo esse.

Hodie est ante diem V Kalendas Apriles; haec dies comitialis est: natalis Sol et Lunae

"O Shining Phoebus and forest Diana, shining ornaments of the sky, ever gentle and refined, O sacred brows, grant us now our prayer." ~ Q. Horatius Flaccus, Saeculares 1-4

Three days after what was then the vernal equinox, celebrated the dies natalis of Sol and Luna. There was an ancient Temple of Sol in the Circus Maximus (Tacitus, Annales 15.74) dedicated on 28 Aug. (Fasti Praeneste) and a Temple of Sol Indigitus on the Quirinal dedicated on the same date in another year (Fasti Amiternum), while the Aventine Temple of Luna, dedicated on 31 March, was attributed to Servius Tullius.

In 243 CE, the "De paschæ computus" recorded this date as the dies natalis of Sol and Luna. It also placed the birth of Jesus on this day, connecting him with solar deities. The first mention of a celebration of the birth of Jesus comes with Clement of Alexandria in 200 CE. Clement notes some who celebrated on 20 May and others on 20 April (Strom., I, xxi in P.G., VIII, 888). Prior to that time the natalis is not mentioned as a Christian festival by Irenaeus or Tertullian, such celebrations were condemned as pagan by Origen and Arnobius. This date, 28 March, continued to be celebrated as the birth of Jesus in some areas,e while others had adopted 6 January, until about 336 CE when the date of the winter solstice, 25 December, first adopted at Milan, became Christmas at Rome.


Sacrifices at the Tombs of the Ancestors

Today is one of the days when sacrifices were left at the tombs of ancestors. Set out for the dead were water for washing, milk, honey,
olive oil, salt, and other foodstuffs, as well as flowers, roses and violets being preferred. However these days were not filled with
sorrow and mourning. "Come then, everyone, we'll celebrate this holiday with joy, " as Aeneas tells his companions at his father's
funeral (Virgil, Aeneid 4.79-80). The final days of each month were generally reserved for rites of the Lares. In certain months it is
mentioned that these rites took place at the tombs themselves. Offerings of a meal would be placed at the tombs and lamps or candles
left to burn throughout the night.

"Why did they not extinguish a lamp, but suffered it to go out of itself? Did they reverence it as akin and closely related to the
inextinguishable and undying fire? Or is this also a symbolic indication that we should not destroynor do away with any living
things, if it does us no harm, since fire is like a living thing? For it needs sustenance, it moves of itself, and when it is
extinguished it gives out a sound as if it were being slain. Or does this custom teach us that we should not destroy fire, water, or any
other necessity when we have enough and to spare, but should allow those who have need of these things to use them, and should leave them for others when we ourselves no longer have any use for them? " ~ Plutarch, Roman Questions 75


AUC 946 / 193 CE: Death of Pertinax; ascension of Didius Julianus

Following the extravagance of Commodus, Pertinax tried to regain some fiscal discipline over the armies of Rome. This was not popular with the Roman legions, especially with the praetorians who murdered Pertinax for his efforts. Perhaps to stress the point all the more, the Praetorians then auctioned off the imperial throne to the highest bidder. This turned out to be the wealthy senator Didius Julianus. Other legions were already marching against Rome and it would be only a few short months before Didius was himself dethroned. What is forgotten is that the career of Didius had prepared him to become emperor, and it had been previously assumed by Pertinax that Didius, his colleague in a consulship, should succeed himself.

"Didius Julianus, who gained possession of the empire after Pertinax, was the great-grandson of Salvius Julianus, a man who was twice consul, prefect of the city, and an authority in jurisprudence . . . He himself was reared at the home of Domitia Lucilla, the mother of the Emperor Marcus, and through the support of this lady he was elected to the Board of Twenty. He was appointed quaestor a year before he reached the legal age, and through the support of Marcus he attained to the office of aedile. Again with the support of Marcus he became praetor. After his praetorship he commanded the Twenty-second Legion, the Primigenia, in Germany, and following that he ruled Belgium long and well. Here, with auxiliaries hastily levied from the provinces, he held out against the Chauci (a people of Germany who dwelt on the river Elbe) as they attempted to burst through the border; and for these services, on the recommendation of the emperor, he was deemed worthy of the consulship. He also gained a crushing victory over the Chatti. Next he took charge of Dalmatia and cleared it of the hostile tribes on its borders. Then he governed Lower Germany; and after that he was deemed worthy of superintending the distribution of grants of money to the poor in Italy. In this position he was accused by one Severus Clarissimus, a soldier, of being an associate of Salvius in his conspiracy against Commodus. But Commodus had already put many senators and many distinguished and powerful men to death on the charge of treason, and so he was afraid of acting too harshly and therefore pardoned Didius and executed his accuser. Thus acquitted, Didius was sent again to govern a province. Then he governed Bithynia, but not as creditably as the other provinces. His consulship he served with Pertinax; in the proconsulship of Africa, moreover, he succeeded him. Pertinax always spoke of him as his colleague and successor." ~ Historia Augusta


Our thought for today is also from Plutarch, De Sera Numinis Vindicta. 17:.

"What waste would it be, what an inconceivable waste, for God to create man, had he not an immortal soul. He would be like the women who make little gardens, not less pleasant than the gardens of Adonis in earthen pots and pans; so would our souls blossom and flourish but for a day in a soft and tender body of flesh without any firm and solid root of life, and then be blasted and put out in a moment."
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74649 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-28
Subject: Palm Sunday
Cato omnibus in foro SPD

Today is the historic commemoration of the triumphant entry of Christ into Jerusalem to begin His last week on earth. This year, because of the calendrical cycles which co-incide between East and West, the entire Christian Church celebrates the events of this week simultaneously.

"Et cum adpropinquassent Hierosolymis et venissent Bethfage ad montem
Oliveti tunc Iesus misit duos discipulos dicens eis ite in castellum
quod contra vos est et statim invenietis asinam alligatam et pullum
cum ea solvite et adducite mihi et si quis vobis aliquid dixerit
dicite quia Dominus his opus habet et confestim dimittet eos hoc autem
factum est ut impleretur quod dictum est per prophetam dicentem
dicite filiae Sion ecce rex tuus venit tibi mansuetus et sedens super
asinam et pullum filium subiugalis euntes autem discipuli fecerunt
sicut praecepit illis Iesus et adduxerunt asinam et pullum et
inposuerunt super eis vestimenta sua et eum desuper sedere fecerunt
plurima autem turba straverunt vestimenta sua in via alii autem
caedebant ramos de arboribus et sternebant in via turbae autem quae
praecedebant et quae sequebantur clamabant dicentes osanna Filio David
benedictus qui venturus est in nomine Domini osanna in altissimis
et cum intrasset Hierosolymam commota est universa civitas dicens quis
est hic populi autem dicebant hic est Iesus propheta a Nazareth
Galilaeae et intravit Iesus in templum Dei et eiciebat omnes vendentes
et ementes in templo et mensas nummulariorum et cathedras vendentium
columbas evertit et dicit eis scriptum est domus mea domus orationis
vocabitur vos autem fecistis eam speluncam latronum et accesserunt ad
eum caeci et claudi in templo et sanavit eos videntes autem principes
sacerdotum et scribae mirabilia quae fecit et pueros clamantes in
templo et dicentes osanna Filio David indignati sunt et dixerunt ei
audis quid isti dicant Iesus autem dicit eis utique numquam legistis
quia ex ore infantium et lactantium perfecisti laudem." - Evangelium
dominum nostrum Iesum Christum secundum Matthaium XXI:I-XVII

"The disciples went and did as Jesus had instructed them. They brought
the donkey and the colt, placed their cloaks on them, and Jesus sat on
them. A very large crowd spread their cloaks on the road, while others
cut branches from the trees and spread them on the road. The crowds
that went ahead of Him and those that followed shouted,

'Hosanna to the Son of David!'
'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!'
'Hosanna in the highest!'

When Jesus entered Jerusalem, the whole city was stirred and asked,
'Who is this?' The crowds answered, 'This is Jesus, the prophet from
Nazareth in Galilee.' " - Matthew 21:8-17

From ancient times, palm-branches were symbols of victory and triumph.
The Romans used to reward their champions of the games with palm-
branches. Also military triumphs, i.e. the celebrations of victory,
were observed with palms. Likewise, for thousands of years the Jews followed the same custom (Lev. 23:40; I Macc. 13:37) of carrying palm-branches on their festive occasions.

From earliest times, the Christians in Jerusalem celebrated this event
with great joy and solemnity, reenacting Christ's triumphant entry
into their city. From Jerusalem this celebration of Palm Sunday
spread to Egypt, then to Syria and Asia Minor. By the fifth century
the feast was celebrated in Constantinople, where the emperor and his
household used to take part in a solemn procession on Palm Sunday.
There, besides palms, they were given olive and lilac branches. As they marched in procession through the streets of the city, they sang the beautiful stycheras composed by St. Andrew of Crete (d. ca. 720), St. John Damascene (d. 749), St. Theodore Studite (d. 826) and his brother, St. Joseph Studite (d. 833). The solemn canon at Matins is a masterpiece of St. Cosmas of Maiuma (d. 760).

During the sixth and the seventh centuries the procession took place
in the morning. It was at this time that the Blessing of Palms and
other branches was introduced. The feast then spread to the West,
where it received its present name — Palm Sunday.

Valete,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74650 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-28
Subject: Re: a. d. V Kalendas Apriles: Sol et Luna; Didius Julianus
Cato omnibus in foro SPD

Actually, the "De Paschae Computus" did not place the birth of "Sol and Luna" on this date, although it did place the celebration of the Nativity on 28 March as a by-product of an attempt to calculate the date of Pascha (as the title states). The Jews have traditionally associated Passover with the creation of the world; the sun, moon, and stars were created on the 4th day of creation. Malachi 4:2 refers to the "Sun of Righteousness" (which the Church identifies with Christ). So it was - to the author of the document - symbolically fitting for March 28th to be the birth of the light of the world. But that date was of much lesser import than the date of Pascha as the greatest feast in the Christian calendar.

Valete!

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "marcushoratius" <MHoratius@...> wrote:
>
> M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus Quiritibus et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit: Ego vos iubeo bono animo esse.
>
> Hodie est ante diem V Kalendas Apriles; haec dies comitialis est: natalis Sol et Lunae
>
> "O Shining Phoebus and forest Diana, shining ornaments of the sky, ever gentle and refined, O sacred brows, grant us now our prayer." ~ Q. Horatius Flaccus, Saeculares 1-4
>
> Three days after what was then the vernal equinox, celebrated the dies natalis of Sol and Luna. There was an ancient Temple of Sol in the Circus Maximus (Tacitus, Annales 15.74) dedicated on 28 Aug. (Fasti Praeneste) and a Temple of Sol Indigitus on the Quirinal dedicated on the same date in another year (Fasti Amiternum), while the Aventine Temple of Luna, dedicated on 31 March, was attributed to Servius Tullius.
>
> In 243 CE, the "De paschæ computus" recorded this date as the dies natalis of Sol and Luna. It also placed the birth of Jesus on this day, connecting him with solar deities. The first mention of a celebration of the birth of Jesus comes with Clement of Alexandria in 200 CE. Clement notes some who celebrated on 20 May and others on 20 April (Strom., I, xxi in P.G., VIII, 888). Prior to that time the natalis is not mentioned as a Christian festival by Irenaeus or Tertullian, such celebrations were condemned as pagan by Origen and Arnobius. This date, 28 March, continued to be celebrated as the birth of Jesus in some areas,e while others had adopted 6 January, until about 336 CE when the date of the winter solstice, 25 December, first adopted at Milan, became Christmas at Rome.
>
>
> Sacrifices at the Tombs of the Ancestors
>
> Today is one of the days when sacrifices were left at the tombs of ancestors. Set out for the dead were water for washing, milk, honey,
> olive oil, salt, and other foodstuffs, as well as flowers, roses and violets being preferred. However these days were not filled with
> sorrow and mourning. "Come then, everyone, we'll celebrate this holiday with joy, " as Aeneas tells his companions at his father's
> funeral (Virgil, Aeneid 4.79-80). The final days of each month were generally reserved for rites of the Lares. In certain months it is
> mentioned that these rites took place at the tombs themselves. Offerings of a meal would be placed at the tombs and lamps or candles
> left to burn throughout the night.
>
> "Why did they not extinguish a lamp, but suffered it to go out of itself? Did they reverence it as akin and closely related to the
> inextinguishable and undying fire? Or is this also a symbolic indication that we should not destroynor do away with any living
> things, if it does us no harm, since fire is like a living thing? For it needs sustenance, it moves of itself, and when it is
> extinguished it gives out a sound as if it were being slain. Or does this custom teach us that we should not destroy fire, water, or any
> other necessity when we have enough and to spare, but should allow those who have need of these things to use them, and should leave them for others when we ourselves no longer have any use for them? " ~ Plutarch, Roman Questions 75
>
>
> AUC 946 / 193 CE: Death of Pertinax; ascension of Didius Julianus
>
> Following the extravagance of Commodus, Pertinax tried to regain some fiscal discipline over the armies of Rome. This was not popular with the Roman legions, especially with the praetorians who murdered Pertinax for his efforts. Perhaps to stress the point all the more, the Praetorians then auctioned off the imperial throne to the highest bidder. This turned out to be the wealthy senator Didius Julianus. Other legions were already marching against Rome and it would be only a few short months before Didius was himself dethroned. What is forgotten is that the career of Didius had prepared him to become emperor, and it had been previously assumed by Pertinax that Didius, his colleague in a consulship, should succeed himself.
>
> "Didius Julianus, who gained possession of the empire after Pertinax, was the great-grandson of Salvius Julianus, a man who was twice consul, prefect of the city, and an authority in jurisprudence . . . He himself was reared at the home of Domitia Lucilla, the mother of the Emperor Marcus, and through the support of this lady he was elected to the Board of Twenty. He was appointed quaestor a year before he reached the legal age, and through the support of Marcus he attained to the office of aedile. Again with the support of Marcus he became praetor. After his praetorship he commanded the Twenty-second Legion, the Primigenia, in Germany, and following that he ruled Belgium long and well. Here, with auxiliaries hastily levied from the provinces, he held out against the Chauci (a people of Germany who dwelt on the river Elbe) as they attempted to burst through the border; and for these services, on the recommendation of the emperor, he was deemed worthy of the consulship. He also gained a crushing victory over the Chatti. Next he took charge of Dalmatia and cleared it of the hostile tribes on its borders. Then he governed Lower Germany; and after that he was deemed worthy of superintending the distribution of grants of money to the poor in Italy. In this position he was accused by one Severus Clarissimus, a soldier, of being an associate of Salvius in his conspiracy against Commodus. But Commodus had already put many senators and many distinguished and powerful men to death on the charge of treason, and so he was afraid of acting too harshly and therefore pardoned Didius and executed his accuser. Thus acquitted, Didius was sent again to govern a province. Then he governed Bithynia, but not as creditably as the other provinces. His consulship he served with Pertinax; in the proconsulship of Africa, moreover, he succeeded him. Pertinax always spoke of him as his colleague and successor." ~ Historia Augusta
>
>
> Our thought for today is also from Plutarch, De Sera Numinis Vindicta. 17:.
>
> "What waste would it be, what an inconceivable waste, for God to create man, had he not an immortal soul. He would be like the women who make little gardens, not less pleasant than the gardens of Adonis in earthen pots and pans; so would our souls blossom and flourish but for a day in a soft and tender body of flesh without any firm and solid root of life, and then be blasted and put out in a moment."
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74652 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2010-03-28
Subject: Re: Palm Sunday
Umm, "...time of Theodosius 347 C.E"? Theodosius I was 379-395. Since when do we use birthdays of (future) emperors as points on the timeline?

-Gualterus


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> Salve;
> it isn't historic at all. It is a myth surrounding an obscure figure. actually we have material attesting to Attis, the current finds of defixiones in Germany and Spain in the early 1st and 2nd century C.E! that Attis was worshipped over the Roman world as a resurrecting god & we have eyewitness accounts of the procession in Rome.
>
> None in Jerusalem;-) And of course the term is Judaeans, not Jews, that is a later and inaccurate usage. And we know for the large material left and current historical research that contemporary Judaeans were utterly unaware of this marginal end of the world prophet.
> bene vale in renatum Attidis
> Maior
>
> **********************************************************************
> **********************************************************************
>
> PRAETORIAL Reminder: please keep historical posts within the dates of up to the time of Theodosius
> 347 C.E
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> >
> > Cato omnibus in foro SPD
> >
> > Today is the historic commemoration of the triumphant entry of Christ into Jerusalem to begin His last week on earth. This year, because of the calendrical cycles which co-incide between East and West, the entire Christian Church celebrates the events of this week simultaneously.
> >
> > "Et cum adpropinquassent Hierosolymis et venissent Bethfage ad montem
> > Oliveti tunc Iesus misit duos discipulos dicens eis ite in castellum
> > quod contra vos est et statim invenietis asinam alligatam et pullum
> > cum ea solvite et adducite mihi et si quis vobis aliquid dixerit
> > dicite quia Dominus his opus habet et confestim dimittet eos hoc autem
> > factum est ut impleretur quod dictum est per prophetam dicentem
> > dicite filiae Sion ecce rex tuus venit tibi mansuetus et sedens super
> > asinam et pullum filium subiugalis euntes autem discipuli fecerunt
> > sicut praecepit illis Iesus et adduxerunt asinam et pullum et
> > inposuerunt super eis vestimenta sua et eum desuper sedere fecerunt
> > plurima autem turba straverunt vestimenta sua in via alii autem
> > caedebant ramos de arboribus et sternebant in via turbae autem quae
> > praecedebant et quae sequebantur clamabant dicentes osanna Filio David
> > benedictus qui venturus est in nomine Domini osanna in altissimis
> > et cum intrasset Hierosolymam commota est universa civitas dicens quis
> > est hic populi autem dicebant hic est Iesus propheta a Nazareth
> > Galilaeae et intravit Iesus in templum Dei et eiciebat omnes vendentes
> > et ementes in templo et mensas nummulariorum et cathedras vendentium
> > columbas evertit et dicit eis scriptum est domus mea domus orationis
> > vocabitur vos autem fecistis eam speluncam latronum et accesserunt ad
> > eum caeci et claudi in templo et sanavit eos videntes autem principes
> > sacerdotum et scribae mirabilia quae fecit et pueros clamantes in
> > templo et dicentes osanna Filio David indignati sunt et dixerunt ei
> > audis quid isti dicant Iesus autem dicit eis utique numquam legistis
> > quia ex ore infantium et lactantium perfecisti laudem." - Evangelium
> > dominum nostrum Iesum Christum secundum Matthaium XXI:I-XVII
> >
> > "The disciples went and did as Jesus had instructed them. They brought
> > the donkey and the colt, placed their cloaks on them, and Jesus sat on
> > them. A very large crowd spread their cloaks on the road, while others
> > cut branches from the trees and spread them on the road. The crowds
> > that went ahead of Him and those that followed shouted,
> >
> > 'Hosanna to the Son of David!'
> > 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!'
> > 'Hosanna in the highest!'
> >
> > When Jesus entered Jerusalem, the whole city was stirred and asked,
> > 'Who is this?' The crowds answered, 'This is Jesus, the prophet from
> > Nazareth in Galilee.' " - Matthew 21:8-17
> >
> > From ancient times, palm-branches were symbols of victory and triumph.
> > The Romans used to reward their champions of the games with palm-
> > branches. Also military triumphs, i.e. the celebrations of victory,
> > were observed with palms. Likewise, for thousands of years the Jews followed the same custom (Lev. 23:40; I Macc. 13:37) of carrying palm-branches on their festive occasions.
> >
> > From earliest times, the Christians in Jerusalem celebrated this event
> > with great joy and solemnity, reenacting Christ's triumphant entry
> > into their city. From Jerusalem this celebration of Palm Sunday
> > spread to Egypt, then to Syria and Asia Minor. By the fifth century
> > the feast was celebrated in Constantinople, where the emperor and his
> > household used to take part in a solemn procession on Palm Sunday.
> > There, besides palms, they were given olive and lilac branches. As they marched in procession through the streets of the city, they sang the beautiful stycheras composed by St. Andrew of Crete (d. ca. 720), St. John Damascene (d. 749), St. Theodore Studite (d. 826) and his brother, St. Joseph Studite (d. 833). The solemn canon at Matins is a masterpiece of St. Cosmas of Maiuma (d. 760).
> >
> > During the sixth and the seventh centuries the procession took place
> > in the morning. It was at this time that the Blessing of Palms and
> > other branches was introduced. The feast then spread to the West,
> > where it received its present name — Palm Sunday.
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > Cato
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74653 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-03-28
Subject: Re: Palm Sunday
Salve Graece,
thank you for the date correction. 330 C.E. It was on our front page forever but Lentulus removed it. Nova Roma is a pagan org and always will be. Well now it will have to go back!
glad this came up.
vale
Maior

I deleted my previous post. I decided it was just so much better to re-post Regulus' excellent material for those who have an interest.


**********************************************************************
I'm reposting the very fine material from A. Sempronius Regulus, who disposed of these issues - Maior
**********************************************************************

From Burton Mack, John Wesley Professor of the New Testament, School of Theology, Claremont.

“…for most people the New Testament is taken as proof for the conventional picture of Christian origins, and the conventional picture is taken as proof for the way in which the New Testament was written. The conventional picture comes to focus on a very small set of persons and events as storied in the gospels. It is the story of Jesus’ appearance in the world as the son of God. A divine aura surrounds this special time that sets it apart from all the rest of human history…All that followed, including the transformation of the disciples into apostles, the birthday of the first church in Jerusalem, the conversion of Paul, and the writing of the New Testament gospels and letters by the apostles, is thought to be a response to those first incomparable events. Thus the unfolding history is imagined on the model of dominoes falling into place when triggered by an original impulse. This creates a circular, interlocking pattern of authentication in which the New Testament is both the result of and the documentation for the conventional view of Christian beginnings. For this reason the New Testament is commonly viewed and treated as a charter document that came into being much like the Constitution of the United States. According to this view, the authors of the New Testament were all present at the historical beginnings of the new religion and collectively wrote their gospels and letters for the purpose of founding the Christian church that Jesus came to inaugurate. Unfortunately for this view, that is not the way it happened. Scholars locate the various writings of the New Testament at different times and places….This fact alone introduces another history of Christian beginnings that is not acknowledged by or reflected in the writings of the New Testament. To make matters worse for the conventional view, these writings stem from different groups with their own histories, views, attitudes, and mix of peoples….No two writings agree upon what we might have thought were fundamental convictions shared by all early Christians. Each writing has a different view of Jesus, for instance, a particular attitude toward Judaism, its own conception of the kingdom of God, a peculiar notion of salvation, and so on. This means that the impression created by the New Testament of a singular collection of apostolic documents, all of which bear “witness” to a single set of inaugural events, is misleading. We now know that there were many different responses to the teachings of Jesus. Groups formed around them, but then went different ways depending upon their mix of peoples, social histories and discussions about the teachings of Jesus and how they were to be interpreted and applied….Each of these branches of the Jesus movements, including many permutations of each type, imagined Jesus differently. They did so in order to account for what they had become as patterns of practice, thinking, and congregating settled into place. And they all competed with one another in their claims to be the true followers of Jesus. Many of these groups had their own gospels (R. Cameron 1982), and some produced rather large libraries that are still available to us…As for the New Testament, it turns out to be a very small selection of texts from the large body of literature produced by various communities…These New Testament texts were collected in the interest of a particular form of Christian congregation….I will begin referring to this type of Christianity as “centrist,” meaning thereby it positioned itself against Gnostic forms of Christianity on the one hand, and radical forms of Pauline and spiritist communities on the other. It was centrist Christianity that became the religion of empire under Constantine, collected together the texts we now know as the New Testament, and joined them to Jewish scriptures to form the Christian Bible….It is also the case that, with the exception of seven letters by Paul and the Revelation to an otherwise unknown John, the writings selected for inclusion in the New Testament were not written by those whose names are attached to them. Many modern Christians find this fact difficult to comprehend, if not downright unnerving. The problem seems to be that, if so, someone must have been lying…[two paragraph discussion snipped on the kinds of acceptable practices in anonymous writing and forgeries â€" later what was unacceptable forgery in the ancient world, ASR]…Thus,…centrist Christians were able to create the impression of a singular, monolinear history of the Christian church. They did so by carefully selecting, collecting, and arranging anonymous and pseudodonymous writings assigned to figures at the beginning of the Christian time….And because all the New Testament writings were now regarded as written by apostles and their associates [and re-written and edited to reinforce this impression, ASR], the differences among their views of Christian beginnings were effectively erased [and since the other forms of Christianity and their gospels and scriptures were effectively suppressed by this centrist empire church, the monolinear historical fiction was further reinforced, ASR]….This means that the impression modern readers have of the New Testament as a charter document for Christianity, a kind of constitution written in concert by a college or congress of apostles, is thoroughly understandable. That is exactly what the centrist Christians of the fourth century intended. The problem is that this charter was created for the fourth-century church by means of literary fictions. It is neither an authentic account of Christian beginnings nor an accurate rehearsal of the history of the empire church…It will not be easy to set the conventional picture aside…The fact is that Christians have an investment in that picture and that investment takes the form of believing it is true. This has resulted in a conviction or desire to accept the gospels as histories, accounts of what literally happened in order to inaugurate the Christian faith." (Who Wrote the New Testament: The Making of the Christian Myth. pp. 5, 6-9)
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gualterus_graecus" <waltms1@...> wrote:
>
>
> Umm, "...time of Theodosius 347 C.E"? Theodosius I was 379-395. Since when do we use birthdays of (future) emperors as points on the timeline?
>
> -Gualterus
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> >
> > Salve;
> > it isn't historic at all. It is a myth surrounding an obscure figure. actually we have material attesting to Attis, the current finds of defixiones in Germany and Spain in the early 1st and 2nd century C.E! that Attis was worshipped over the Roman world as a resurrecting god & we have eyewitness accounts of the procession in Rome.
> >
> > None in Jerusalem;-) And of course the term is Judaeans, not Jews, that is a later and inaccurate usage. And we know for the large material left and current historical research that contemporary Judaeans were utterly unaware of this marginal end of the world prophet.
> > bene vale in renatum Attidis
> > Maior
> >
> > **********************************************************************
> > **********************************************************************
> >
> > PRAETORIAL Reminder: please keep historical posts within the dates of up to the time of Theodosius
> > 347 C.E
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Cato omnibus in foro SPD
> > >
> > > Today is the historic commemoration of the triumphant entry of Christ into Jerusalem to begin His last week on earth. This year, because of the calendrical cycles which co-incide between East and West, the entire Christian Church celebrates the events of this week simultaneously.
> > >
> > > "Et cum adpropinquassent Hierosolymis et venissent Bethfage ad montem
> > > Oliveti tunc Iesus misit duos discipulos dicens eis ite in castellum
> > > quod contra vos est et statim invenietis asinam alligatam et pullum
> > > cum ea solvite et adducite mihi et si quis vobis aliquid dixerit
> > > dicite quia Dominus his opus habet et confestim dimittet eos hoc autem
> > > factum est ut impleretur quod dictum est per prophetam dicentem
> > > dicite filiae Sion ecce rex tuus venit tibi mansuetus et sedens super
> > > asinam et pullum filium subiugalis euntes autem discipuli fecerunt
> > > sicut praecepit illis Iesus et adduxerunt asinam et pullum et
> > > inposuerunt super eis vestimenta sua et eum desuper sedere fecerunt
> > > plurima autem turba straverunt vestimenta sua in via alii autem
> > > caedebant ramos de arboribus et sternebant in via turbae autem quae
> > > praecedebant et quae sequebantur clamabant dicentes osanna Filio David
> > > benedictus qui venturus est in nomine Domini osanna in altissimis
> > > et cum intrasset Hierosolymam commota est universa civitas dicens quis
> > > est hic populi autem dicebant hic est Iesus propheta a Nazareth
> > > Galilaeae et intravit Iesus in templum Dei et eiciebat omnes vendentes
> > > et ementes in templo et mensas nummulariorum et cathedras vendentium
> > > columbas evertit et dicit eis scriptum est domus mea domus orationis
> > > vocabitur vos autem fecistis eam speluncam latronum et accesserunt ad
> > > eum caeci et claudi in templo et sanavit eos videntes autem principes
> > > sacerdotum et scribae mirabilia quae fecit et pueros clamantes in
> > > templo et dicentes osanna Filio David indignati sunt et dixerunt ei
> > > audis quid isti dicant Iesus autem dicit eis utique numquam legistis
> > > quia ex ore infantium et lactantium perfecisti laudem." - Evangelium
> > > dominum nostrum Iesum Christum secundum Matthaium XXI:I-XVII
> > >
> > > "The disciples went and did as Jesus had instructed them. They brought
> > > the donkey and the colt, placed their cloaks on them, and Jesus sat on
> > > them. A very large crowd spread their cloaks on the road, while others
> > > cut branches from the trees and spread them on the road. The crowds
> > > that went ahead of Him and those that followed shouted,
> > >
> > > 'Hosanna to the Son of David!'
> > > 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!'
> > > 'Hosanna in the highest!'
> > >
> > > When Jesus entered Jerusalem, the whole city was stirred and asked,
> > > 'Who is this?' The crowds answered, 'This is Jesus, the prophet from
> > > Nazareth in Galilee.' " - Matthew 21:8-17
> > >
> > > From ancient times, palm-branches were symbols of victory and triumph.
> > > The Romans used to reward their champions of the games with palm-
> > > branches. Also military triumphs, i.e. the celebrations of victory,
> > > were observed with palms. Likewise, for thousands of years the Jews followed the same custom (Lev. 23:40; I Macc. 13:37) of carrying palm-branches on their festive occasions.
> > >
> > > From earliest times, the Christians in Jerusalem celebrated this event
> > > with great joy and solemnity, reenacting Christ's triumphant entry
> > > into their city. From Jerusalem this celebration of Palm Sunday
> > > spread to Egypt, then to Syria and Asia Minor. By the fifth century
> > > the feast was celebrated in Constantinople, where the emperor and his
> > > household used to take part in a solemn procession on Palm Sunday.
> > > There, besides palms, they were given olive and lilac branches. As they marched in procession through the streets of the city, they sang the beautiful stycheras composed by St. Andrew of Crete (d. ca. 720), St. John Damascene (d. 749), St. Theodore Studite (d. 826) and his brother, St. Joseph Studite (d. 833). The solemn canon at Matins is a masterpiece of St. Cosmas of Maiuma (d. 760).
> > >
> > > During the sixth and the seventh centuries the procession took place
> > > in the morning. It was at this time that the Blessing of Palms and
> > > other branches was introduced. The feast then spread to the West,
> > > where it received its present name — Palm Sunday.
> > >
> > > Valete,
> > >
> > > Cato
> > >
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74654 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2010-03-28
Subject: Re: Palm Sunday
Because 330 conflicts with what the preamble to the Constitution says: "The primary function of Nova Roma shall be to promote the study and practice of pagan Roman civilization, defined as the period from the founding of the City of Rome in 753 BCE to the removal of the altar of Victory from the Senate in 394 CE and encompassing such fields as religion, culture, politics, art, literature, language, and philosophy."

So, that certainly includes the Christianization of the empire.

-Gualterus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Graece,
> thank you for the date correction. 330 C.E. It was on our front page forever but Lentulus removed it. Nova Roma is a pagan org and always will be. Well now it will have to go back!
> glad this came up.
> vale
> Maior
>
> I deleted my previous post. I decided it was just so much better to re-post Regulus' excellent material for those who have an interest.
>
>
> **********************************************************************
> I'm reposting the very fine material from A. Sempronius Regulus, who disposed of these issues - Maior
> **********************************************************************
>
> From Burton Mack, John Wesley Professor of the New Testament, School of Theology, Claremont.
>
> “…for most people the New Testament is taken as proof for the conventional picture of Christian origins, and the conventional picture is taken as proof for the way in which the New Testament was written. The conventional picture comes to focus on a very small set of persons and events as storied in the gospels. It is the story of Jesus’ appearance in the world as the son of God. A divine aura surrounds this special time that sets it apart from all the rest of human history…All that followed, including the transformation of the disciples into apostles, the birthday of the first church in Jerusalem, the conversion of Paul, and the writing of the New Testament gospels and letters by the apostles, is thought to be a response to those first incomparable events. Thus the unfolding history is imagined on the model of dominoes falling into place when triggered by an original impulse. This creates a circular, interlocking pattern of authentication in which the New Testament is both the result of and the documentation for the conventional view of Christian beginnings. For this reason the New Testament is commonly viewed and treated as a charter document that came into being much like the Constitution of the United States. According to this view, the authors of the New Testament were all present at the historical beginnings of the new religion and collectively wrote their gospels and letters for the purpose of founding the Christian church that Jesus came to inaugurate. Unfortunately for this view, that is not the way it happened. Scholars locate the various writings of the New Testament at different times and places….This fact alone introduces another history of Christian beginnings that is not acknowledged by or reflected in the writings of the New Testament. To make matters worse for the conventional view, these writings stem from different groups with their own histories, views, attitudes, and mix of peoples….No two writings agree upon what we might have thought were fundamental convictions shared by all early Christians. Each writing has a different view of Jesus, for instance, a particular attitude toward Judaism, its own conception of the kingdom of God, a peculiar notion of salvation, and so on. This means that the impression created by the New Testament of a singular collection of apostolic documents, all of which bear “witness” to a single set of inaugural events, is misleading. We now know that there were many different responses to the teachings of Jesus. Groups formed around them, but then went different ways depending upon their mix of peoples, social histories and discussions about the teachings of Jesus and how they were to be interpreted and applied….Each of these branches of the Jesus movements, including many permutations of each type, imagined Jesus differently. They did so in order to account for what they had become as patterns of practice, thinking, and congregating settled into place. And they all competed with one another in their claims to be the true followers of Jesus. Many of these groups had their own gospels (R. Cameron 1982), and some produced rather large libraries that are still available to us…As for the New Testament, it turns out to be a very small selection of texts from the large body of literature produced by various communities…These New Testament texts were collected in the interest of a particular form of Christian congregation….I will begin referring to this type of Christianity as “centrist,” meaning thereby it positioned itself against Gnostic forms of Christianity on the one hand, and radical forms of Pauline and spiritist communities on the other. It was centrist Christianity that became the religion of empire under Constantine, collected together the texts we now know as the New Testament, and joined them to Jewish scriptures to form the Christian Bible….It is also the case that, with the exception of seven letters by Paul and the Revelation to an otherwise unknown John, the writings selected for inclusion in the New Testament were not written by those whose names are attached to them. Many modern Christians find this fact difficult to comprehend, if not downright unnerving. The problem seems to be that, if so, someone must have been lying…[two paragraph discussion snipped on the kinds of acceptable practices in anonymous writing and forgeries â€" later what was unacceptable forgery in the ancient world, ASR]…Thus,…centrist Christians were able to create the impression of a singular, monolinear history of the Christian church. They did so by carefully selecting, collecting, and arranging anonymous and pseudodonymous writings assigned to figures at the beginning of the Christian time….And because all the New Testament writings were now regarded as written by apostles and their associates [and re-written and edited to reinforce this impression, ASR], the differences among their views of Christian beginnings were effectively erased [and since the other forms of Christianity and their gospels and scriptures were effectively suppressed by this centrist empire church, the monolinear historical fiction was further reinforced, ASR]….This means that the impression modern readers have of the New Testament as a charter document for Christianity, a kind of constitution written in concert by a college or congress of apostles, is thoroughly understandable. That is exactly what the centrist Christians of the fourth century intended. The problem is that this charter was created for the fourth-century church by means of literary fictions. It is neither an authentic account of Christian beginnings nor an accurate rehearsal of the history of the empire church…It will not be easy to set the conventional picture aside…The fact is that Christians have an investment in that picture and that investment takes the form of believing it is true. This has resulted in a conviction or desire to accept the gospels as histories, accounts of what literally happened in order to inaugurate the Christian faith." (Who Wrote the New Testament: The Making of the Christian Myth. pp. 5, 6-9)
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gualterus_graecus" <waltms1@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Umm, "...time of Theodosius 347 C.E"? Theodosius I was 379-395. Since when do we use birthdays of (future) emperors as points on the timeline?
> >
> > -Gualterus
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Salve;
> > > it isn't historic at all. It is a myth surrounding an obscure figure. actually we have material attesting to Attis, the current finds of defixiones in Germany and Spain in the early 1st and 2nd century C.E! that Attis was worshipped over the Roman world as a resurrecting god & we have eyewitness accounts of the procession in Rome.
> > >
> > > None in Jerusalem;-) And of course the term is Judaeans, not Jews, that is a later and inaccurate usage. And we know for the large material left and current historical research that contemporary Judaeans were utterly unaware of this marginal end of the world prophet.
> > > bene vale in renatum Attidis
> > > Maior
> > >
> > > **********************************************************************
> > > **********************************************************************
> > >
> > > PRAETORIAL Reminder: please keep historical posts within the dates of up to the time of Theodosius
> > > 347 C.E
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Cato omnibus in foro SPD
> > > >
> > > > Today is the historic commemoration of the triumphant entry of Christ into Jerusalem to begin His last week on earth. This year, because of the calendrical cycles which co-incide between East and West, the entire Christian Church celebrates the events of this week simultaneously.
> > > >
> > > > "Et cum adpropinquassent Hierosolymis et venissent Bethfage ad montem
> > > > Oliveti tunc Iesus misit duos discipulos dicens eis ite in castellum
> > > > quod contra vos est et statim invenietis asinam alligatam et pullum
> > > > cum ea solvite et adducite mihi et si quis vobis aliquid dixerit
> > > > dicite quia Dominus his opus habet et confestim dimittet eos hoc autem
> > > > factum est ut impleretur quod dictum est per prophetam dicentem
> > > > dicite filiae Sion ecce rex tuus venit tibi mansuetus et sedens super
> > > > asinam et pullum filium subiugalis euntes autem discipuli fecerunt
> > > > sicut praecepit illis Iesus et adduxerunt asinam et pullum et
> > > > inposuerunt super eis vestimenta sua et eum desuper sedere fecerunt
> > > > plurima autem turba straverunt vestimenta sua in via alii autem
> > > > caedebant ramos de arboribus et sternebant in via turbae autem quae
> > > > praecedebant et quae sequebantur clamabant dicentes osanna Filio David
> > > > benedictus qui venturus est in nomine Domini osanna in altissimis
> > > > et cum intrasset Hierosolymam commota est universa civitas dicens quis
> > > > est hic populi autem dicebant hic est Iesus propheta a Nazareth
> > > > Galilaeae et intravit Iesus in templum Dei et eiciebat omnes vendentes
> > > > et ementes in templo et mensas nummulariorum et cathedras vendentium
> > > > columbas evertit et dicit eis scriptum est domus mea domus orationis
> > > > vocabitur vos autem fecistis eam speluncam latronum et accesserunt ad
> > > > eum caeci et claudi in templo et sanavit eos videntes autem principes
> > > > sacerdotum et scribae mirabilia quae fecit et pueros clamantes in
> > > > templo et dicentes osanna Filio David indignati sunt et dixerunt ei
> > > > audis quid isti dicant Iesus autem dicit eis utique numquam legistis
> > > > quia ex ore infantium et lactantium perfecisti laudem." - Evangelium
> > > > dominum nostrum Iesum Christum secundum Matthaium XXI:I-XVII
> > > >
> > > > "The disciples went and did as Jesus had instructed them. They brought
> > > > the donkey and the colt, placed their cloaks on them, and Jesus sat on
> > > > them. A very large crowd spread their cloaks on the road, while others
> > > > cut branches from the trees and spread them on the road. The crowds
> > > > that went ahead of Him and those that followed shouted,
> > > >
> > > > 'Hosanna to the Son of David!'
> > > > 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!'
> > > > 'Hosanna in the highest!'
> > > >
> > > > When Jesus entered Jerusalem, the whole city was stirred and asked,
> > > > 'Who is this?' The crowds answered, 'This is Jesus, the prophet from
> > > > Nazareth in Galilee.' " - Matthew 21:8-17
> > > >
> > > > From ancient times, palm-branches were symbols of victory and triumph.
> > > > The Romans used to reward their champions of the games with palm-
> > > > branches. Also military triumphs, i.e. the celebrations of victory,
> > > > were observed with palms. Likewise, for thousands of years the Jews followed the same custom (Lev. 23:40; I Macc. 13:37) of carrying palm-branches on their festive occasions.
> > > >
> > > > From earliest times, the Christians in Jerusalem celebrated this event
> > > > with great joy and solemnity, reenacting Christ's triumphant entry
> > > > into their city. From Jerusalem this celebration of Palm Sunday
> > > > spread to Egypt, then to Syria and Asia Minor. By the fifth century
> > > > the feast was celebrated in Constantinople, where the emperor and his
> > > > household used to take part in a solemn procession on Palm Sunday.
> > > > There, besides palms, they were given olive and lilac branches. As they marched in procession through the streets of the city, they sang the beautiful stycheras composed by St. Andrew of Crete (d. ca. 720), St. John Damascene (d. 749), St. Theodore Studite (d. 826) and his brother, St. Joseph Studite (d. 833). The solemn canon at Matins is a masterpiece of St. Cosmas of Maiuma (d. 760).
> > > >
> > > > During the sixth and the seventh centuries the procession took place
> > > > in the morning. It was at this time that the Blessing of Palms and
> > > > other branches was introduced. The feast then spread to the West,
> > > > where it received its present name — Palm Sunday.
> > > >
> > > > Valete,
> > > >
> > > > Cato
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74655 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-03-28
Subject: defixiones and dates [wasRe: Palm Sunday]
Salve Graece;
bene I just got up an hour ago, 394 C.E. is the date. Oh no problem with christian cults or Judaean cults etc but anything later turns into spam. See below.

I find the latest finds of defixiones in Germany and Spain very interesting. It seems common understanding of Attis as god/saviour must be pushed back to the 1st -2nd century C.E.
vale
Maior



" As they marched
in procession through the streets of the city, they sang the beautiful stycheras
composed by St. Andrew of Crete (d. ca. 720), St. John Damascene (d. 749), St.
Theodore Studite (d. 826) and his brother, St. Joseph Studite (d. 833). The
solemn canon at Matins is a masterpiece of St. Cosmas of Maiuma (d. 760).

"During the sixth and the seventh centuries the procession took place
in the morning. It was at this time that the Blessing of Palms and
other branches was introduced. The feast then spread to the West,
where it received its present name — Palm Sunday."

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gualterus_graecus" <waltms1@...> wrote:
>
>
> Because 330 conflicts with what the preamble to the Constitution says: "The primary function of Nova Roma shall be to promote the study and practice of pagan Roman civilization, defined as the period from the founding of the City of Rome in 753 BCE to the removal of the altar of Victory from the Senate in 394 CE and encompassing such fields as religion, culture, politics, art, literature, language, and philosophy."
>
> So, that certainly includes the Christianization of the empire.
>
> -Gualterus
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> >
> > Salve Graece,
> > thank you for the date correction. 330 C.E. It was on our front page forever but Lentulus removed it. Nova Roma is a pagan org and always will be. Well now it will have to go back!
> > glad this came up.
> > vale
> > Maior
> >
> > I deleted my previous post. I decided it was just so much better to re-post Regulus' excellent material for those who have an interest.
> >
> >
> > **********************************************************************
> > I'm reposting the very fine material from A. Sempronius Regulus, who disposed of these issues - Maior
> > **********************************************************************
> >
> > From Burton Mack, John Wesley Professor of the New Testament, School of Theology, Claremont.
> >
> > “…for most people the New Testament is taken as proof for the conventional picture of Christian origins, and the conventional picture is taken as proof for the way in which the New Testament was written. The conventional picture comes to focus on a very small set of persons and events as storied in the gospels. It is the story of Jesus’ appearance in the world as the son of God. A divine aura surrounds this special time that sets it apart from all the rest of human history…All that followed, including the transformation of the disciples into apostles, the birthday of the first church in Jerusalem, the conversion of Paul, and the writing of the New Testament gospels and letters by the apostles, is thought to be a response to those first incomparable events. Thus the unfolding history is imagined on the model of dominoes falling into place when triggered by an original impulse. This creates a circular, interlocking pattern of authentication in which the New Testament is both the result of and the documentation for the conventional view of Christian beginnings. For this reason the New Testament is commonly viewed and treated as a charter document that came into being much like the Constitution of the United States. According to this view, the authors of the New Testament were all present at the historical beginnings of the new religion and collectively wrote their gospels and letters for the purpose of founding the Christian church that Jesus came to inaugurate. Unfortunately for this view, that is not the way it happened. Scholars locate the various writings of the New Testament at different times and places….This fact alone introduces another history of Christian beginnings that is not acknowledged by or reflected in the writings of the New Testament. To make matters worse for the conventional view, these writings stem from different groups with their own histories, views, attitudes, and mix of peoples….No two writings agree upon what we might have thought were fundamental convictions shared by all early Christians. Each writing has a different view of Jesus, for instance, a particular attitude toward Judaism, its own conception of the kingdom of God, a peculiar notion of salvation, and so on. This means that the impression created by the New Testament of a singular collection of apostolic documents, all of which bear “witness” to a single set of inaugural events, is misleading. We now know that there were many different responses to the teachings of Jesus. Groups formed around them, but then went different ways depending upon their mix of peoples, social histories and discussions about the teachings of Jesus and how they were to be interpreted and applied….Each of these branches of the Jesus movements, including many permutations of each type, imagined Jesus differently. They did so in order to account for what they had become as patterns of practice, thinking, and congregating settled into place. And they all competed with one another in their claims to be the true followers of Jesus. Many of these groups had their own gospels (R. Cameron 1982), and some produced rather large libraries that are still available to us…As for the New Testament, it turns out to be a very small selection of texts from the large body of literature produced by various communities…These New Testament texts were collected in the interest of a particular form of Christian congregation….I will begin referring to this type of Christianity as “centrist,” meaning thereby it positioned itself against Gnostic forms of Christianity on the one hand, and radical forms of Pauline and spiritist communities on the other. It was centrist Christianity that became the religion of empire under Constantine, collected together the texts we now know as the New Testament, and joined them to Jewish scriptures to form the Christian Bible….It is also the case that, with the exception of seven letters by Paul and the Revelation to an otherwise unknown John, the writings selected for inclusion in the New Testament were not written by those whose names are attached to them. Many modern Christians find this fact difficult to comprehend, if not downright unnerving. The problem seems to be that, if so, someone must have been lying…[two paragraph discussion snipped on the kinds of acceptable practices in anonymous writing and forgeries â€" later what was unacceptable forgery in the ancient world, ASR]…Thus,…centrist Christians were able to create the impression of a singular, monolinear history of the Christian church. They did so by carefully selecting, collecting, and arranging anonymous and pseudodonymous writings assigned to figures at the beginning of the Christian time….And because all the New Testament writings were now regarded as written by apostles and their associates [and re-written and edited to reinforce this impression, ASR], the differences among their views of Christian beginnings were effectively erased [and since the other forms of Christianity and their gospels and scriptures were effectively suppressed by this centrist empire church, the monolinear historical fiction was further reinforced, ASR]….This means that the impression modern readers have of the New Testament as a charter document for Christianity, a kind of constitution written in concert by a college or congress of apostles, is thoroughly understandable. That is exactly what the centrist Christians of the fourth century intended. The problem is that this charter was created for the fourth-century church by means of literary fictions. It is neither an authentic account of Christian beginnings nor an accurate rehearsal of the history of the empire church…It will not be easy to set the conventional picture aside…The fact is that Christians have an investment in that picture and that investment takes the form of believing it is true. This has resulted in a conviction or desire to accept the gospels as histories, accounts of what literally happened in order to inaugurate the Christian faith." (Who Wrote the New Testament: The Making of the Christian Myth. pp. 5, 6-9)
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gualterus_graecus" <waltms1@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Umm, "...time of Theodosius 347 C.E"? Theodosius I was 379-395. Since when do we use birthdays of (future) emperors as points on the timeline?
> > >
> > > -Gualterus
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Salve;
> > > > it isn't historic at all. It is a myth surrounding an obscure figure. actually we have material attesting to Attis, the current finds of defixiones in Germany and Spain in the early 1st and 2nd century C.E! that Attis was worshipped over the Roman world as a resurrecting god & we have eyewitness accounts of the procession in Rome.
> > > >
> > > > None in Jerusalem;-) And of course the term is Judaeans, not Jews, that is a later and inaccurate usage. And we know for the large material left and current historical research that contemporary Judaeans were utterly unaware of this marginal end of the world prophet.
> > > > bene vale in renatum Attidis
> > > > Maior
> > > >
> > > > **********************************************************************
> > > > **********************************************************************
> > > >
> > > > PRAETORIAL Reminder: please keep historical posts within the dates of up to the time of Theodosius
> > > > 347 C.E
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Cato omnibus in foro SPD
> > > > >
> > > > > Today is the historic commemoration of the triumphant entry of Christ into Jerusalem to begin His last week on earth. This year, because of the calendrical cycles which co-incide between East and West, the entire Christian Church celebrates the events of this week simultaneously.
> > > > >
> > > > > "Et cum adpropinquassent Hierosolymis et venissent Bethfage ad montem
> > > > > Oliveti tunc Iesus misit duos discipulos dicens eis ite in castellum
> > > > > quod contra vos est et statim invenietis asinam alligatam et pullum
> > > > > cum ea solvite et adducite mihi et si quis vobis aliquid dixerit
> > > > > dicite quia Dominus his opus habet et confestim dimittet eos hoc autem
> > > > > factum est ut impleretur quod dictum est per prophetam dicentem
> > > > > dicite filiae Sion ecce rex tuus venit tibi mansuetus et sedens super
> > > > > asinam et pullum filium subiugalis euntes autem discipuli fecerunt
> > > > > sicut praecepit illis Iesus et adduxerunt asinam et pullum et
> > > > > inposuerunt super eis vestimenta sua et eum desuper sedere fecerunt
> > > > > plurima autem turba straverunt vestimenta sua in via alii autem
> > > > > caedebant ramos de arboribus et sternebant in via turbae autem quae
> > > > > praecedebant et quae sequebantur clamabant dicentes osanna Filio David
> > > > > benedictus qui venturus est in nomine Domini osanna in altissimis
> > > > > et cum intrasset Hierosolymam commota est universa civitas dicens quis
> > > > > est hic populi autem dicebant hic est Iesus propheta a Nazareth
> > > > > Galilaeae et intravit Iesus in templum Dei et eiciebat omnes vendentes
> > > > > et ementes in templo et mensas nummulariorum et cathedras vendentium
> > > > > columbas evertit et dicit eis scriptum est domus mea domus orationis
> > > > > vocabitur vos autem fecistis eam speluncam latronum et accesserunt ad
> > > > > eum caeci et claudi in templo et sanavit eos videntes autem principes
> > > > > sacerdotum et scribae mirabilia quae fecit et pueros clamantes in
> > > > > templo et dicentes osanna Filio David indignati sunt et dixerunt ei
> > > > > audis quid isti dicant Iesus autem dicit eis utique numquam legistis
> > > > > quia ex ore infantium et lactantium perfecisti laudem." - Evangelium
> > > > > dominum nostrum Iesum Christum secundum Matthaium XXI:I-XVII
> > > > >
> > > > > "The disciples went and did as Jesus had instructed them. They brought
> > > > > the donkey and the colt, placed their cloaks on them, and Jesus sat on
> > > > > them. A very large crowd spread their cloaks on the road, while others
> > > > > cut branches from the trees and spread them on the road. The crowds
> > > > > that went ahead of Him and those that followed shouted,
> > > > >
> > > > > 'Hosanna to the Son of David!'
> > > > > 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!'
> > > > > 'Hosanna in the highest!'
> > > > >
> > > > > When Jesus entered Jerusalem, the whole city was stirred and asked,
> > > > > 'Who is this?' The crowds answered, 'This is Jesus, the prophet from
> > > > > Nazareth in Galilee.' " - Matthew 21:8-17
> > > > >
> > > > > From ancient times, palm-branches were symbols of victory and triumph.
> > > > > The Romans used to reward their champions of the games with palm-
> > > > > branches. Also military triumphs, i.e. the celebrations of victory,
> > > > > were observed with palms. Likewise, for thousands of years the Jews followed the same custom (Lev. 23:40; I Macc. 13:37) of carrying palm-branches on their festive occasions.
> > > > >
> > > > > From earliest times, the Christians in Jerusalem celebrated this event
> > > > > with great joy and solemnity, reenacting Christ's triumphant entry
> > > > > into their city. From Jerusalem this celebration of Palm Sunday
> > > > > spread to Egypt, then to Syria and Asia Minor. By the fifth century
> > > > > the feast was celebrated in Constantinople, where the emperor and his
> > > > > household used to take part in a solemn procession on Palm Sunday.
> > > > > There, besides palms, they were given olive and lilac branches. As they marched in procession through the streets of the city, they sang the beautiful stycheras composed by St. Andrew of Crete (d. ca. 720), St. John Damascene (d. 749), St. Theodore Studite (d. 826) and his brother, St. Joseph Studite (d. 833). The solemn canon at Matins is a masterpiece of St. Cosmas of Maiuma (d. 760).
> > > > >
> > > > > During the sixth and the seventh centuries the procession took place
> > > > > in the morning. It was at this time that the Blessing of Palms and
> > > > > other branches was introduced. The feast then spread to the West,
> > > > > where it received its present name — Palm Sunday.
> > > > >
> > > > > Valete,
> > > > >
> > > > > Cato
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74656 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-28
Subject: defixiones and dates [wasRe: Palm Sunday]
Cato Maiori sal.

Nope. "Common understanding" is that the Attis cult derived many of its particulars from Christianity as it saw the rapid expansion of the new faith and wanted to get on that bandwagon, so to speak.

The "eyewitness accounts" are from Christian writers like Firmicus Maternus (c. AD 350), and the calendar of AD 354 is the very first note of any of the festivals for Attis aside from the 27th of March.

Vale,

Cato



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Graece;
> bene I just got up an hour ago, 394 C.E. is the date. Oh no problem with christian cults or Judaean cults etc but anything later turns into spam. See below.
>
> I find the latest finds of defixiones in Germany and Spain very interesting. It seems common understanding of Attis as god/saviour must be pushed back to the 1st -2nd century C.E.
> vale
> Maior
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74657 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2010-03-28
Subject: defixiones and dates [wasRe: Palm Sunday]
Salvete,

Well, these are two separate things. Appeal to a god in a curse tablet doesn't imply that there is a full blown cult in place, or that, if there is a cult, it must resemble all of the details witnessed in it two centuries later. It is interesting that Attis can be addressed as "deum maxsime" (sic) in the late first or early second century, but a wide variety of gods get invoked in curse tablets for whom there is no evidence of a regular, contemporary, cult. I think you two are talking past each other.

Valete,

Gualterus Graecus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> Cato Maiori sal.
>
> Nope. "Common understanding" is that the Attis cult derived many of its particulars from Christianity as it saw the rapid expansion of the new faith and wanted to get on that bandwagon, so to speak.
>
> The "eyewitness accounts" are from Christian writers like Firmicus Maternus (c. AD 350), and the calendar of AD 354 is the very first note of any of the festivals for Attis aside from the 27th of March.
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> >
> > Salve Graece;
> > bene I just got up an hour ago, 394 C.E. is the date. Oh no problem with christian cults or Judaean cults etc but anything later turns into spam. See below.
> >
> > I find the latest finds of defixiones in Germany and Spain very interesting. It seems common understanding of Attis as god/saviour must be pushed back to the 1st -2nd century C.E.
> > vale
> > Maior
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74658 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-03-28
Subject: defixiones and dates [wasRe: Palm Sunday]
Salve Graece;
I don't talk to him, he just repeats the same apologetics and doesn't read any serious scholarship.

Why would anyone appeal to Attis, call him deum maxsime, tie him to the 12 gods if they didn't think he'd do any good? Why appeal to him as a god of cosmic justice?

Alvar does a very good job of bringing sense to academic discussion. A propos of Attis and his resurrection, he rightly discusses that no one would worship a zombie whose little pinkie grew. what does the worshipper get from that? zero. it seems nonsensical but scholars don't think of that.

I'm quite open about the entire business, as it doesn't affect my world view if Attis developed later or earlier. It does to scholars who've invested in the idea that Attis as god and saviour is late. But seeing the distribution of the defixiones, this is a big deal and so early too. Scholars will have to revise. As Agricola says the entire business of religious reconstruction is 'as if' archeology is vital to showing us what was really going on in material culture, as opposed to intellectuals who composed texts.
vale
Maior

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gualterus_graecus" <waltms1@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete,
>
> Well, these are two separate things. Appeal to a god in a curse tablet doesn't imply that there is a full blown cult in place, or that, if there is a cult, it must resemble all of the details witnessed in it two centuries later. It is interesting that Attis can be addressed as "deum maxsime" (sic) in the late first or early second century, but a wide variety of gods get invoked in curse tablets for whom there is no evidence of a regular, contemporary, cult. I think you two are talking past each other.
>
> Valete,
>
> Gualterus Graecus
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> >
> > Cato Maiori sal.
> >
> > Nope. "Common understanding" is that the Attis cult derived many of its particulars from Christianity as it saw the rapid expansion of the new faith and wanted to get on that bandwagon, so to speak.
> >
> > The "eyewitness accounts" are from Christian writers like Firmicus Maternus (c. AD 350), and the calendar of AD 354 is the very first note of any of the festivals for Attis aside from the 27th of March.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Cato
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Salve Graece;
> > > bene I just got up an hour ago, 394 C.E. is the date. Oh no problem with christian cults or Judaean cults etc but anything later turns into spam. See below.
> > >
> > > I find the latest finds of defixiones in Germany and Spain very interesting. It seems common understanding of Attis as god/saviour must be pushed back to the 1st -2nd century C.E.
> > > vale
> > > Maior
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74659 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-03-28
Subject: defixiones and dates [wasRe: Palm Sunday]
I'm running out for dinner. For those who are interested here is the other text from the spanish defixiones :

Domine megare invicte, tu qui Attidis corpus accepisti, accipias eius corpus qui..

rogo te, Mater Magna , megaro tuo (the victim Tib. Claudius Adiutor) recipias, et Attis domine, te precor... footnote 131 p. 68
Dates:c. AD 70 -130


the megaron is the tomb of Attis, which was very important to the cultus.

Alvar : "Despite the early date invictus must allude to Attis' astral/cosmic status." P 67 footnote 130.

fascinating!
vale
Maior


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Graece;
> I don't talk to him, he just repeats the same apologetics and doesn't read any serious scholarship.
>
> Why would anyone appeal to Attis, call him deum maxsime, tie him to the 12 gods if they didn't think he'd do any good? Why appeal to him as a god of cosmic justice?
>
> Alvar does a very good job of bringing sense to academic discussion. A propos of Attis and his resurrection, he rightly discusses that no one would worship a zombie whose little pinkie grew. what does the worshipper get from that? zero. it seems nonsensical but scholars don't think of that.
>
> I'm quite open about the entire business, as it doesn't affect my world view if Attis developed later or earlier. It does to scholars who've invested in the idea that Attis as god and saviour is late. But seeing the distribution of the defixiones, this is a big deal and so early too. Scholars will have to revise. As Agricola says the entire business of religious reconstruction is 'as if' archeology is vital to showing us what was really going on in material culture, as opposed to intellectuals who composed texts.
> vale
> Maior
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gualterus_graecus" <waltms1@> wrote:
> >
> > Salvete,
> >
> > Well, these are two separate things. Appeal to a god in a curse tablet doesn't imply that there is a full blown cult in place, or that, if there is a cult, it must resemble all of the details witnessed in it two centuries later. It is interesting that Attis can be addressed as "deum maxsime" (sic) in the late first or early second century, but a wide variety of gods get invoked in curse tablets for whom there is no evidence of a regular, contemporary, cult. I think you two are talking past each other.
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > Gualterus Graecus
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Cato Maiori sal.
> > >
> > > Nope. "Common understanding" is that the Attis cult derived many of its particulars from Christianity as it saw the rapid expansion of the new faith and wanted to get on that bandwagon, so to speak.
> > >
> > > The "eyewitness accounts" are from Christian writers like Firmicus Maternus (c. AD 350), and the calendar of AD 354 is the very first note of any of the festivals for Attis aside from the 27th of March.
> > >
> > > Vale,
> > >
> > > Cato
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Salve Graece;
> > > > bene I just got up an hour ago, 394 C.E. is the date. Oh no problem with christian cults or Judaean cults etc but anything later turns into spam. See below.
> > > >
> > > > I find the latest finds of defixiones in Germany and Spain very interesting. It seems common understanding of Attis as god/saviour must be pushed back to the 1st -2nd century C.E.
> > > > vale
> > > > Maior
> > >
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74660 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2010-03-28
Subject: defixiones and dates [wasRe: Palm Sunday]
If you don't "talk" to him, then I suggest you don't bother clicking the "reply" button because it might confuse people into thinking a conversation is going on.

And, it now seems you're talking past me as well. *Obviously* a curse tablet appealing to Attis means that the author thought Attis could do something and I never suggested otherwise. What I said was that just because a god is being appealed to it doesn't mean there is a "cult" in place, or that it should resemble anything it does two centuries later.

Furthermore, you keep talking about the "resurrection" issue in as much an apologetic tone as Cato. The hard fact is that the notion of salvation through resurrection is a Christian idea, and the Latin and Greek terminology behind the English word point to reconstitution of the body.

There's absolutely no reason to piggy-back on this Christian notion to make sense of Attis and other dying gods. In the mythology Attis doesn't resurrect, but goes into a zombie state, but as Alvar points out, "the offer of resurrection need not only be made by deities that have themselves experienced death and resurrection" (138) and that a myth need not be totally transparent to analysis (139). What Alvar is arguing in these pages (and building off what he says about oppositions on page 71) is that how followers make use of the god and what the mythology says suggests various levels of ambiguity and interpretation. The only weakness in Alvar's discussion on these pages is that he somewhat loosely slips between talking about resurrection and immortality. At any rate, Attis is a zombie, but can offer immortality to followers. Only his hair and grows and finger wiggles, but he can be depicted at the chariot reins next to Cybele.

Then, is Attis' supernatural power coextensive with his zombified body? Hardly. The contradictions and ambiguities involved in getting at the "substance" of the gods is what Ando struggles with in _The Matter of the Gods_ (2008). He brings up the discussion of the black stone of Cybele brought to Rome. Was it *the* goddess or only a copy of a stone that represented her? Ancient usage was to refer to it as *the* goddess, but obviously there were many such stones in the ancient Mediterranean. Ando concludes, "Recognizing further hypostases beyond or between the divine and the corporeal, people in the ancient world might well have understood that Cybele somehow was, and yet was not coextensive with, their black stones; and in that way, she might also have been, but not been identical with, other black stones" (42). I think this is a much more productive approach--Attis was his zombified body in a similar way that Cybele was the physical stone; there are states of being that overlap but are not coextensive with corporeal manifestation. Followers don't need Attis to resurrect Lazarus-style; the fact that he could stop death by becoming a zombie somehow made it worthwhile tapping into the other hypostases constituting his divinity.

-Gualterus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Graece;
> I don't talk to him, he just repeats the same apologetics and doesn't read any serious scholarship.
>
> Why would anyone appeal to Attis, call him deum maxsime, tie him to the 12 gods if they didn't think he'd do any good? Why appeal to him as a god of cosmic justice?
>
> Alvar does a very good job of bringing sense to academic discussion. A propos of Attis and his resurrection, he rightly discusses that no one would worship a zombie whose little pinkie grew. what does the worshipper get from that? zero. it seems nonsensical but scholars don't think of that.
>
> I'm quite open about the entire business, as it doesn't affect my world view if Attis developed later or earlier. It does to scholars who've invested in the idea that Attis as god and saviour is late. But seeing the distribution of the defixiones, this is a big deal and so early too. Scholars will have to revise. As Agricola says the entire business of religious reconstruction is 'as if' archeology is vital to showing us what was really going on in material culture, as opposed to intellectuals who composed texts.
> vale
> Maior
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gualterus_graecus" <waltms1@> wrote:
> >
> > Salvete,
> >
> > Well, these are two separate things. Appeal to a god in a curse tablet doesn't imply that there is a full blown cult in place, or that, if there is a cult, it must resemble all of the details witnessed in it two centuries later. It is interesting that Attis can be addressed as "deum maxsime" (sic) in the late first or early second century, but a wide variety of gods get invoked in curse tablets for whom there is no evidence of a regular, contemporary, cult. I think you two are talking past each other.
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > Gualterus Graecus
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Cato Maiori sal.
> > >
> > > Nope. "Common understanding" is that the Attis cult derived many of its particulars from Christianity as it saw the rapid expansion of the new faith and wanted to get on that bandwagon, so to speak.
> > >
> > > The "eyewitness accounts" are from Christian writers like Firmicus Maternus (c. AD 350), and the calendar of AD 354 is the very first note of any of the festivals for Attis aside from the 27th of March.
> > >
> > > Vale,
> > >
> > > Cato
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Salve Graece;
> > > > bene I just got up an hour ago, 394 C.E. is the date. Oh no problem with christian cults or Judaean cults etc but anything later turns into spam. See below.
> > > >
> > > > I find the latest finds of defixiones in Germany and Spain very interesting. It seems common understanding of Attis as god/saviour must be pushed back to the 1st -2nd century C.E.
> > > > vale
> > > > Maior
> > >
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74662 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-28
Subject: defixiones and dates [wasRe: Palm Sunday]
Cato Maiori sal.

You wrote:

"I don't talk to him, he just repeats the same apologetics and doesn't read any
serious scholarship."

Perhaps you don't know who M.J. Vermaseren was. You might take a look here:

http://openlibrary.org/a/OL804370A/M._J._Vermaseren

He was pretty serious. And try Prof. Giulia Sfameni Gasparro:

http://ww2.unime.it/persefone/societa/GGasparro.html

She's pretty serious too.

What's odd is that both of these scholars, neither of whose scholarship agrees
with you and so are obviously not "serious", are listed on our very own web page
dealing with Cybele:

http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Magna_Mater

Interesting. And you wonder why Nova Roma is a laughing-stock in academia?

Vale,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74663 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-03-28
Subject: defixiones and dates [wasRe: Palm Sunday]
Salve Graece;
hmm, this is silly. Attis had a very ancient cultus already in the Near East. So you mean to say there is this god, who is appealed to, whose grave is mentioned and there is no cult involved? Ridiculous, especially when you consider that these finds are in Mainz, Germany and Spain, about as far from Phrygia as you can get.

Alvar says as well, discussing "Invictus" that the entire astral aspect of Attis comes into play. So we have the megaron, tomb mentioned, Invictus, unconquered, and a defixione involving someone in the tomb. This is Attis appealed to as underworld judge & Invictus, a god who hears & has conquered death.

What we have to do is say: Attis had a cultus that spanned the Empire as early as the 1-2nd century, that focused on his death & conquering of death. If he were a zombie he wouldn't be Invictus. Additionally there wouldn't be mysteries which from the very beginning were about the Hierogamos. Don't forget the cult of Attis is that of the dying and reborn king who has sacred renewing sex with the goddess.

I have a feeling you are unfamiliar with the material on Attis or you wouldn't be making these assertions.

For a very long time, there has been an assumption that the cult of Attis came much later, but then there were the archeological finds right on Magna Mater's temple of Attis figurines, dating from the Republic. Now this. It's huge.
As I said the issues are for scholars stuck in a narrative & christian apologists who somehow feel the Attis cult invalidates their own. (I dont' understand i,t but it's not my problem)

Ando is hopeless, try Galanakis' "Minoan Glyptic" instead
" The third study views baetyls as "media for summoning the divinity who was about to resurrect and bring back fertility to nature", (p. 92) linking them to aniconic forms of Kybele, Kubela and Kubana in the Levant and Anatolia (p. 93);

http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2007/2007-02-03.html
vale
Maior



> Furthermore, you keep talking about the "resurrection" issue in as much an apologetic tone as Cato. The hard fact is that the notion of salvation through resurrection is a Christian idea, and the Latin and Greek terminology behind the English word point to reconstitution of the body.
>
> There's absolutely no reason to piggy-back on this Christian notion to make sense of Attis and other dying gods. In the mythology Attis doesn't resurrect, but goes into a zombie state, but as Alvar points out, "the offer of resurrection need not only be made by deities that have themselves experienced death and resurrection" (138) and that a myth need not be totally transparent to analysis (139). What Alvar is arguing in these pages (and building off what he says about oppositions on page 71) is that how followers make use of the god and what the mythology says suggests various levels of ambiguity and interpretation. The only weakness in Alvar's discussion on these pages is that he somewhat loosely slips between talking about resurrection and immortality. At any rate, Attis is a zombie, but can offer immortality to followers. Only his hair and grows and finger wiggles, but he can be depicted at the chariot reins next to Cybele.
>
> Then, is Attis' supernatural power coextensive with his zombified body? Hardly. The contradictions and ambiguities involved in getting at the "substance" of the gods is what Ando struggles with in _The Matter of the Gods_ (2008). He brings up the discussion of the black stone of Cybele brought to Rome. Was it *the* goddess or only a copy of a stone that represented her? Ancient usage was to refer to it as *the* goddess, but obviously there were many such stones in the ancient Mediterranean. Ando concludes, "Recognizing further hypostases beyond or between the divine and the corporeal, people in the ancient world might well have understood that Cybele somehow was, and yet was not coextensive with, their black stones; and in that way, she might also have been, but not been identical with, other black stones" (42). I think this is a much more productive approach--Attis was his zombified body in a similar way that Cybele was the physical stone; there are states of being that overlap but are not coextensive with corporeal manifestation. Followers don't need Attis to resurrect Lazarus-style; the fact that he could stop death by becoming a zombie somehow made it worthwhile tapping into the other hypostases constituting his divinity.
>
> -Gualterus
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> >
> > Salve Graece;
> > I don't talk to him, he just repeats the same apologetics and doesn't read any serious scholarship.
> >
> > Why would anyone appeal to Attis, call him deum maxsime, tie him to the 12 gods if they didn't think he'd do any good? Why appeal to him as a god of cosmic justice?
> >
> > Alvar does a very good job of bringing sense to academic discussion. A propos of Attis and his resurrection, he rightly discusses that no one would worship a zombie whose little pinkie grew. what does the worshipper get from that? zero. it seems nonsensical but scholars don't think of that.
> >
> > I'm quite open about the entire business, as it doesn't affect my world view if Attis developed later or earlier. It does to scholars who've invested in the idea that Attis as god and saviour is late. But seeing the distribution of the defixiones, this is a big deal and so early too. Scholars will have to revise. As Agricola says the entire business of religious reconstruction is 'as if' archeology is vital to showing us what was really going on in material culture, as opposed to intellectuals who composed texts.
> > vale
> > Maior
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gualterus_graecus" <waltms1@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Salvete,
> > >
> > > Well, these are two separate things. Appeal to a god in a curse tablet doesn't imply that there is a full blown cult in place, or that, if there is a cult, it must resemble all of the details witnessed in it two centuries later. It is interesting that Attis can be addressed as "deum maxsime" (sic) in the late first or early second century, but a wide variety of gods get invoked in curse tablets for whom there is no evidence of a regular, contemporary, cult. I think you two are talking past each other.
> > >
> > > Valete,
> > >
> > > Gualterus Graecus
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Cato Maiori sal.
> > > >
> > > > Nope. "Common understanding" is that the Attis cult derived many of its particulars from Christianity as it saw the rapid expansion of the new faith and wanted to get on that bandwagon, so to speak.
> > > >
> > > > The "eyewitness accounts" are from Christian writers like Firmicus Maternus (c. AD 350), and the calendar of AD 354 is the very first note of any of the festivals for Attis aside from the 27th of March.
> > > >
> > > > Vale,
> > > >
> > > > Cato
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Salve Graece;
> > > > > bene I just got up an hour ago, 394 C.E. is the date. Oh no problem with christian cults or Judaean cults etc but anything later turns into spam. See below.
> > > > >
> > > > > I find the latest finds of defixiones in Germany and Spain very interesting. It seems common understanding of Attis as god/saviour must be pushed back to the 1st -2nd century C.E.
> > > > > vale
> > > > > Maior
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74664 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2010-03-29
Subject: defixiones and dates [wasRe: Palm Sunday]
Now you're just making stuff up. There is no "very ancient cultus already in the Near East" for Attis. The earliest archaeological evidence for Attis having any sort of possibly divine status comes from a relief from the late 4th/early 3rd century BCE in Piraeus, Greece. After that you have the 3rd century sanctuary at Pessinus in Anatolia. Yes, there were figurines found in 2nd century BCE deposits in Rome, but it is not clear how they relate to the cult of Cybele, and it has been doubted whether they are evidence of Attis being considered a god (pace Vermaseren). Lancellotti discusses all of this evidence in _Attis, Between Myth and History: King, Priest and God_ (2002) 32-80.

I also fear that you don't really know what a defixio is. It is NOT a votive offering and so not only does it NOT imply the presence of some sanctuary or cultic site, but defixiones were often buried in places they should not be easily discovered, which further makes it improbable that there was some cultic site at the find spot. They are curses, often inscribed on lead, but sometimes other material, rolled up and often pierced with a nail and buried. And the tomb? That's obviously a reference to the mythological tomb, not a *real* one, *unless* the defixiones were put in a grave site, which does often happen, in which case it was someone else's tomb and the reference worked by analogy.

Have you ever looked at the variety of inscriptions and divine invocations on defixiones? Let me give you an example. In well finds described in Jordan, "Defixiones from a Well Near the Southwest Corner of the Athenian Agora" Hesperia 54.3 (1985) 205-255, there are 11 invocations on defixiones to Seth-Typhon. Was there ever a cult to Seth-Typhon in Athens, let alone Greece? No. Defixiones may invoke "angels" and a variety of obscure divine names for whom no evidence exists of any cultic activity. So, how should you interpret a more well-known god popping up on defixiones? Are you justified to immediately conclude "Attis had a cultus that spanned the Empire as early as the 1-2nd century"? Certainly not.

"Ando is hopeless"? Did you actually read his book? Have you read Galanakis' book for that matter? Please explain how Galanakis is relevant to the discussion about how ancients viewed the divine "substance" of the gods.

-Gualterus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Graece;
> hmm, this is silly. Attis had a very ancient cultus already in the Near East. So you mean to say there is this god, who is appealed to, whose grave is mentioned and there is no cult involved? Ridiculous, especially when you consider that these finds are in Mainz, Germany and Spain, about as far from Phrygia as you can get.
>
> Alvar says as well, discussing "Invictus" that the entire astral aspect of Attis comes into play. So we have the megaron, tomb mentioned, Invictus, unconquered, and a defixione involving someone in the tomb. This is Attis appealed to as underworld judge & Invictus, a god who hears & has conquered death.
>
> What we have to do is say: Attis had a cultus that spanned the Empire as early as the 1-2nd century, that focused on his death & conquering of death. If he were a zombie he wouldn't be Invictus. Additionally there wouldn't be mysteries which from the very beginning were about the Hierogamos. Don't forget the cult of Attis is that of the dying and reborn king who has sacred renewing sex with the goddess.
>
> I have a feeling you are unfamiliar with the material on Attis or you wouldn't be making these assertions.
>
> For a very long time, there has been an assumption that the cult of Attis came much later, but then there were the archeological finds right on Magna Mater's temple of Attis figurines, dating from the Republic. Now this. It's huge.
> As I said the issues are for scholars stuck in a narrative & christian apologists who somehow feel the Attis cult invalidates their own. (I dont' understand i,t but it's not my problem)
>
> Ando is hopeless, try Galanakis' "Minoan Glyptic" instead
> " The third study views baetyls as "media for summoning the divinity who was about to resurrect and bring back fertility to nature", (p. 92) linking them to aniconic forms of Kybele, Kubela and Kubana in the Levant and Anatolia (p. 93);
>
> http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2007/2007-02-03.html
> vale
> Maior
>
>
>
> > Furthermore, you keep talking about the "resurrection" issue in as much an apologetic tone as Cato. The hard fact is that the notion of salvation through resurrection is a Christian idea, and the Latin and Greek terminology behind the English word point to reconstitution of the body.
> >
> > There's absolutely no reason to piggy-back on this Christian notion to make sense of Attis and other dying gods. In the mythology Attis doesn't resurrect, but goes into a zombie state, but as Alvar points out, "the offer of resurrection need not only be made by deities that have themselves experienced death and resurrection" (138) and that a myth need not be totally transparent to analysis (139). What Alvar is arguing in these pages (and building off what he says about oppositions on page 71) is that how followers make use of the god and what the mythology says suggests various levels of ambiguity and interpretation. The only weakness in Alvar's discussion on these pages is that he somewhat loosely slips between talking about resurrection and immortality. At any rate, Attis is a zombie, but can offer immortality to followers. Only his hair and grows and finger wiggles, but he can be depicted at the chariot reins next to Cybele.
> >
> > Then, is Attis' supernatural power coextensive with his zombified body? Hardly. The contradictions and ambiguities involved in getting at the "substance" of the gods is what Ando struggles with in _The Matter of the Gods_ (2008). He brings up the discussion of the black stone of Cybele brought to Rome. Was it *the* goddess or only a copy of a stone that represented her? Ancient usage was to refer to it as *the* goddess, but obviously there were many such stones in the ancient Mediterranean. Ando concludes, "Recognizing further hypostases beyond or between the divine and the corporeal, people in the ancient world might well have understood that Cybele somehow was, and yet was not coextensive with, their black stones; and in that way, she might also have been, but not been identical with, other black stones" (42). I think this is a much more productive approach--Attis was his zombified body in a similar way that Cybele was the physical stone; there are states of being that overlap but are not coextensive with corporeal manifestation. Followers don't need Attis to resurrect Lazarus-style; the fact that he could stop death by becoming a zombie somehow made it worthwhile tapping into the other hypostases constituting his divinity.
> >
> > -Gualterus
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Salve Graece;
> > > I don't talk to him, he just repeats the same apologetics and doesn't read any serious scholarship.
> > >
> > > Why would anyone appeal to Attis, call him deum maxsime, tie him to the 12 gods if they didn't think he'd do any good? Why appeal to him as a god of cosmic justice?
> > >
> > > Alvar does a very good job of bringing sense to academic discussion. A propos of Attis and his resurrection, he rightly discusses that no one would worship a zombie whose little pinkie grew. what does the worshipper get from that? zero. it seems nonsensical but scholars don't think of that.
> > >
> > > I'm quite open about the entire business, as it doesn't affect my world view if Attis developed later or earlier. It does to scholars who've invested in the idea that Attis as god and saviour is late. But seeing the distribution of the defixiones, this is a big deal and so early too. Scholars will have to revise. As Agricola says the entire business of religious reconstruction is 'as if' archeology is vital to showing us what was really going on in material culture, as opposed to intellectuals who composed texts.
> > > vale
> > > Maior
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gualterus_graecus" <waltms1@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Salvete,
> > > >
> > > > Well, these are two separate things. Appeal to a god in a curse tablet doesn't imply that there is a full blown cult in place, or that, if there is a cult, it must resemble all of the details witnessed in it two centuries later. It is interesting that Attis can be addressed as "deum maxsime" (sic) in the late first or early second century, but a wide variety of gods get invoked in curse tablets for whom there is no evidence of a regular, contemporary, cult. I think you two are talking past each other.
> > > >
> > > > Valete,
> > > >
> > > > Gualterus Graecus
> > > >
> > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Cato Maiori sal.
> > > > >
> > > > > Nope. "Common understanding" is that the Attis cult derived many of its particulars from Christianity as it saw the rapid expansion of the new faith and wanted to get on that bandwagon, so to speak.
> > > > >
> > > > > The "eyewitness accounts" are from Christian writers like Firmicus Maternus (c. AD 350), and the calendar of AD 354 is the very first note of any of the festivals for Attis aside from the 27th of March.
> > > > >
> > > > > Vale,
> > > > >
> > > > > Cato
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Salve Graece;
> > > > > > bene I just got up an hour ago, 394 C.E. is the date. Oh no problem with christian cults or Judaean cults etc but anything later turns into spam. See below.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I find the latest finds of defixiones in Germany and Spain very interesting. It seems common understanding of Attis as god/saviour must be pushed back to the 1st -2nd century C.E.
> > > > > > vale
> > > > > > Maior
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74665 From: Timothy or Stephen Gallagher Date: 2010-03-29
Subject: Formal request that the Tribunes VETO the proposed SCU
Salvete Romans,



A difference of opinion has arisen over the use of a SCU to fill the current vacancy in the office of Aedilis Curulis. I believe and I believe that Roman history has shown that an SCU was and is an emergency measure used in extraordinary times and circumstances and not as a remedy for the occasional vacancies of elected officials.



The constitution of Nova Roma and her laws allow that in the event of an office being vacant with three months or less in a term the Senate could and would fill it. The law is clear that they must be three months or less other otherwise the regular machinery of the republic should be used to fill a vacant office. That regular machinery is called an election.



I have formally requested that the Tribunes veto the proposed SCU and I have posted this note here as evidence of that formal request.





Valete,



Ti. Galerius Paulinus



**********************************************************************

Salvete Tribunes, Consul et al



Our Consul's most recent statement that an SCU is NOT an emergency measure flies in the face of Roman history and it use by the Roman Senate. There were many Romans, J. Caesar among them, who believed that an SCU was unconstitutional within the framework of the Roman state.

The adoption of an SCU under our constitution should be undertaken only after a solid case has been made that the regular machinery of the republic is incapable of providing us with a remedy to a given problem.



We have a vacancy in the office of Aedilis Curulis which can and should be filled by holding of an election per the laws and constitution of the republic



The only case that has been made is that passing an SCU is faster than holding an election. This is NO case at all. If it takes a week or five weeks to fill the office through an election the republic will stand. Getting something done faster may work well in a dictatorship but not in a republic It is not a good enough reason.



I formally request that the Tribunes veto the proposed SCU as being against the letter and more importantly the sprit of the constitution.



There is no crisis that needs to be dealt with through an SCU therefore we do not need one.



Valete,



Ti. Galerius Paulinus



 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74666 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-03-29
Subject: a. d. IV Kalendas Apriles: Capillori
M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus Quiritibus, cultoribus Deorum et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit: Curate ut valeatis, et Di vos servent.

Hodie est ante diem IV Kalendas Apriles; haec dies comitialis est:

CAPILLORI

"To be sure, superior to the kind of auguries taken in the established stations of the augurs (stativa augurii) are those we call capillorem, that is a place He (Jove) has touched. Indeed a Capillor is so called when a tree is auspiciously taken and consecrated by Jove's lightning bolt." ~ Servius Aen. 10.423

When lightning struck the earth all that was scorched by it was regarded as holy since it contained a numen of Jupiter. Everything that had been struck and burnt, including the scorched soil, would be gathered into a wooden four-sided box for burial; the box having no bottom (Lucan 1.606). Over the grave would be placed mounded earth and a circular stone wall built to enclose the area as a sanctuary that was called a puteal. The Florides refers to family lands in the countryside being sanctified with "an altar wreathed with flowers, a grotto shaded with foliage, an oak hung with horns, a beech with animal skins, or a consecrated knoll surrounded by a fence (a puteal), a tree trunk in which a hatchet has carved a divine effigy, a patch of turf sprinkled with libations, a stone anointed with oil (1. 3-4)." In contrast, Apuleius complained about his wife's brother-in-law as a person who did not erect any sanctuaries on his land, "never so much as a stone anointed with oil or a branch adorned with a garland anywhere on his estate (Apologia 56. 5-6)." Normally a lightning strike might be regarded as fortuitous as it sanctified the land, but constructing the puteal involved some costs. Apuleius' complaint is that the man was irreligious and miserly at the same time.

When lightning struck on private lands it was required that haruspices or fulgatores perform a rite that would designate the space separate from the surrounding lands. The rite would have been made with auspices taken and the locus then proclaimed solemn with an established templum. A sacrifice would be made, and we might posit that it would include leeks and fish after the rite performed by Numa where he prayed, "King and Father of the high Gods, grant sure appeasement of the thunderbolt (Ovid Fasti 3.327-348)." In the case where a person was struck by lightning, the body could not be cremated but had to be buried in the puteal along with all else scorched by the lightning (Festus p.178, occisum). A special sacrifice of a two year old sheep, called a bidens, was made as a propitiary offering at that time (Pliny Hist. Nat. 2.145; Festus p27; Nonius p53, 26). Once the puteal was constructed it became a sanctuary of Jupiter at which annual sacrifices were made. As with tombs of the dead or the foundation of a temple, the annual rite was probably made on the anniversary of when the lightning had struck, the "patch of turf sprinkled with libations." As it was a sanctuary of Jupiter a puteal may have also served as a place on private lands where other annual offerings were made to Jupiter (Cato De Agricultura 132).

The puteal was declared a solemn place. Cicero declares, "Let no one consecrate a field (De Leggibus 2.21)." This agri autem ne consecrentur he explains after Plato that the "the earth therefore, like the hearth in a dwelling, is sacred to all Gods, wherefore no one should consecrate it a second time (2.45)." But at the same time he has already said that in the countryside there should be designated solemn shrines (2.19). The distinction should be noted here between a place being proclaimed solemn by the words of an augur and one that is consecrated as sacred. Although Jupiter had sent down the lightning bolt, it is a numen of Jupiter that has been placed on earth. The puteal is solemn because of the residing numen and is thus a type of ecfatum, a religious place devoted to the Di inferes. "Effata," according to Varro, "are said to be those solemn places set off by the augurs from cities and countryside, according to the celestial auspices that indicate their boundaries." He continues to say that "from the augurs, the effari are said to be templa, with which the affatum are in these boundaries (Varro De Lingua Latina 6, 53)." Initially it was a minor shrine as it was touched by Jupiter, but then became an effatum through the auspices and its enclosure. "The Minora become templa by the augurs when a locus is enclosed with tablets or else with linen, at the same time an ample opening is left in the enclosure to pass through, it is somehow defined by certain words. And so a templum is a locus that is solemn, or else it is an enclosure with an opening that has its corners affixed to the earth (Festus 157a)."

The puteal is not, however, a place where Jupiter Himself resides; thus it is not sacred and not consecrated in the same sense as an aedes sacrum. "In ancient times the sacred temples (aedes) were at first made as districts (templa) that were set off and pronounced solemn (effareturque) by the augurs. Then at length they were consecrated (consecraretur) by the pontifices, and finally sacred edifices were constructed . . . the locus itself pointed out where this was possible to be done (Servius Aeneid 1, 446)." In the case of a puteal the locus pointed out what land might be made solemn by having been struck by lightning. Touched by Jupiter, it is also a capillor where an augur will establish a templum to take the auspices during the rite by which the locus is transformed into the puteal. Other places may be said to be "touched" by a God or Goddess, where numina may be found and evokes awe. Where a locus specifically refers to a grove or spring where a divine presence may be felt or intuited, a similar rite would be performed with an augur establishing a templum, taking the auspices that will designate the boundaries of the locus, and this may then be enclosed to transform it into an effatum. The intuited aspect of a locus, a templum, or an effatum is one thing that differs from a consecration of a site. "A templum is said to be a measured division, by nature, by auspices, and by similitude; the nature in the sky, its climate, from the auspices on earth . . . Whatever way it was intuited by the eyes, from what was first beheld it is said to be the templum (Varro De Lingua Latina 7, 6.7)." That is, a site is first reported to be a special place, then this is confirmed by an augur through his intuitive art. Declaring a site solemn was thus performed by specialized individuals. A consecration is somewhat different. It is performed for a site that has already been declared solemn by an augur when he establishes a templum on the site. The site may have already been an effatum or might not. To be declared sacred and then consecrated as such, a site must be so ordered by the people of Rome acting through their comitia or else by a decree of the Senate (Gaius Institutiones II. 1-11). If a site were selected to erect a temple, a magistrate assisted by an augur would first establish a templum on the site and take the auspices in order to see if the proposed site is approved by the Gods. Then the templum would need to be consecrated by the pontifices acting on behalf of the state. Finally an edifice such as a fanum or a aedes could be constructed on the site. The consecration rite was similar to that performed by Romulus when founding Rome, or the one performed by Hercules in founding a sanctuary as described on the Cippus Abellanus. The boundaries of the temple precinct, also called a templum, were plowed in a special manner, a circumambulation was then conducted with sacrifices made on this boundary, and markers set up to designate the cite as consecrated and dedicated. It was the physical act of the rites performed that consecrated the site, more so than that its boundaries were intuited. Thereby are the two aspects of the religio Romana found, for on the one hand its rituals often included much pomp and formality as in a consecration, but on the other hand, the root and origin of the religio Romana was in an ecstatic tradition and relied on an intuited knowledge of the presence of the Gods in Nature.


Today's thought is from Marcus Aurelius, Meditations 4.51:

"Always run to the short way; and the short way is the natural: accordingly say and do everything in conformity with the soundest
reason. For such a purpose frees a man from trouble, and warfare, and all artifice and ostentatious display."
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74667 From: Andreas Lachmann Date: 2010-03-29
Subject: Lararivm
Salve et salvete,

it took me long enough but I finally finished my LARARIVM.

Vale et valete, D.Arm.Brvtvs

_________________________________________________________________
Get the latest jobs delivered. Sign up for SEEK Jobmail.
http://clk.atdmt.com/NMN/go/157639755/direct/01/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74668 From: Andreas Date: 2010-03-29
Subject: Re: Lararivm
Salvete,

I believed this post would appear with a link to my attached fotos,
since it might be of interest what I've done to some.

Valete,D.Arm.Brvtvs


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Andreas Lachmann <pagermanicvs@...> wrote:
>
>
> Salve et salvete,
>
> it took me long enough but I finally finished my LARARIVM.
>
> Vale et valete, D.Arm.Brvtvs
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get the latest jobs delivered. Sign up for SEEK Jobmail.
> http://clk.atdmt.com/NMN/go/157639755/direct/01/
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74669 From: Cato Date: 2010-03-29
Subject: Re: Formal request that the Tribunes VETO the proposed SCU
Cato tribuni consules omnibusque in foro SPD

I stand with Galerius Paulinus here; the Respublica has the machinery with which to fill vacant offices under the Constitution.

Using the most powerful legal instrument available to the Senate simply because it is "faster" does not justify suspension of the constitutional rights of the citizens of the Respublica to decide for themselves to whom imperium should be given.

Imperium is a precious and powerful thing, and can only come from the will of the People.

"The consul felt hurt at finding these rumours so widely believed, and summoned the people to an assembly. As he entered the fasces were lowered, to the great delight of the multitude, who understood that it was to them that they were lowered as an open avowal that the dignity and might of the people were greater than those of the consul." - Livy, History of Rome II.7

Valete,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74670 From: titus_iulius_calvus Date: 2010-03-29
Subject: Ancient Rome & America Exhibit
Salvete,

I just saw this this morning, and thought it was so cool that I have to share:

http://www.constitutioncenter.org/rome/

"Ancient Rome & America showcases the cultural, political, and social connections between the lost world of ancient Rome and modern America. The exhibition features more than 300 artifacts from Italy and the United States, bringing together a never-before-seen collection from Italy's leading archaeological institutions in Florence, Naples, and Rome, paired with objects from over 40 lending institutions in the United States."

They're also doing a Spring Break camp for kids:

http://constitutioncenter.org/ncc_edu_Spring_Break_Camp.aspx

"From the roars of the Coliseum to the temples of the gods, spend your holiday exploring ancient Rome and experiencing the life of a Roman citizen. Live, eat, dress, and learn what Roman society was like during the Pax Romana. Create and wear the latest toga fashions and accessories. Try the gladiator challenge and see if you are strong enough to outlast your competitor. Campers will also see how Roman architecture influenced many of our nation's great buildings and monuments. In addition, campers will hear stories of legendary gods and goddesses, mold and sculpt statues and pottery, and create mosaic masterpieces. So strap on your sandals, wrap up your togas, and enjoy your Roman holiday!"

I wish I lived closer to Philadelphia!

Valete,

T. Iul. Calvus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74671 From: publiusalbucius Date: 2010-03-29
Subject: Comitia centuriata open
Consul Albucius omnibus Quiritibus s.d.

The comitia centuriata is open. Several legal amendments are proposed, on which I will ask your support.

The vote is allowed to all *current* assidui.

The comitia holds its session at :

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NovaRomaComitiaCenturiata/


The rogationes (Law proposed texts) are in the Files section, folder

'CC March-April 2763 auc'.

As a few senators met, during the now closed Senate session, problems to access some documents in the Senate similar Files section, please inform me or my colleague in such situation.

Valete and good assembly, Quirites!


P. Memmius Albucius
consul
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74672 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-03-29
Subject: Re: Lararivm
M. Hortensia D. Arminio spd;
bene bene! please upload the photos here in the NRwiki with other cives lararia
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Lararium_(Nova_Roma)
this is very inspiring to see the diversity and give new cultores ideas. I remember before our wiki we were all so worried & afraid to even make lararia, that they had to conform to some set idea.
Magna Mater tibi favet!
Maior

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Andreas Lachmann <pagermanicvs@...> wrote:
>
>
> Salve et salvete,
>
> it took me long enough but I finally finished my LARARIVM.
>
> Vale et valete, D.Arm.Brvtvs
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get the latest jobs delivered. Sign up for SEEK Jobmail.
> http://clk.atdmt.com/NMN/go/157639755/direct/01/
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74673 From: C.Maria Caeca Date: 2010-03-29
Subject: Re: Ancient Rome & America Exhibit
Caeca Calvo sal,

This sounds absolutely wonderful! I'm short ...so I wonder ...could I say I got gray *very* prematurely ...and pass myself as a juvenile camper? that sounds like ...fun!

Vale bene,
Caeca

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74674 From: flavius_vedius Date: 2010-03-29
Subject: Re: Lararivm
Congratulations!

Can't wait to see the photos.

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Andreas Lachmann <pagermanicvs@...> wrote:
>
>
> Salve et salvete,
>
> it took me long enough but I finally finished my LARARIVM.
>
> Vale et valete, D.Arm.Brvtvs
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get the latest jobs delivered. Sign up for SEEK Jobmail.
> http://clk.atdmt.com/NMN/go/157639755/direct/01/
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74675 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-03-29
Subject: defixiones and dates [wasRe: Palm Sunday]
Maior Graeco Piscino quititibusque spd;

*sigh* I have mentioned many times Mark Munn's brilliant book
The Mother of the Gods, Athens, and the Tyranny of Asia. A Study of Sovereignty in Ancient Religion, 2006
http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2006/2006-10-27.html

"explores the origins of the cult of the Mother of the Gods and her connection to sovereignty in Phrygia. Midas, the Phrygian king, who quickly passed from history into myth, is the centre of a number of stories that explain his wealth and power as based on his close connection and veneration of the Mother. Munn examines Greek literary traditions, the archaeological record of Phrygian monuments and Near Eastern sources"

Additionally Atys is given as the name of Croesus son (Croesus was the last king of Lydia (reigned 560-46 B.C.E)

This fits right in with the mysteries of Attis and Cybele as a sacred marriage, hierogamos.

The Attis statuettes found on the Palatine (they are male figurines wearing a phrygian cap, baring their sex, which is devoid of penis and testes} are dated by Professor Pensabene from 190 to 110 B.C.E. they were found with statuettes of masks and pines.


The deifixiones, commonly called curse tablets, date from the 1 & early 2nd century. Attis is addressed as Deus, Tyranne, Invictus.

If you want to ignore or pretend the evidence exists that is your choice.

I find it all very interesting. Cybele is connected to Kubaba, the Neo-Hittite goddess, who was worshipped in SouthEastern Anatolia and Northern Syria.
http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/me/b/basalt_stela_of_goddess_kubaba.aspx

I find it all fascinating. Anyway if you wish to insist Attis is a graeco-roman creation. go right on.


Finally about the term 'resurrection.' The concept of bodily resurrection comes from the Zoroastrians of Central Asia, the Israelites got it from them when they were in exile. As for the early christians I have no idea, maybe from Iran.

So no, Resurrection isn't a christian idea as you wrote. For all I know, not being a Semitic Scholar or an Iranologist, it might have been common over these areas. Or not. I do know that Ba'al of Ugarit died and was revived, so too Tammuz of Sumer, Adonis et al.

I have read Ando, and thought him absurd. I have to find a long essay I read on baetyls, which the author differentiated, I'll find the reference for you Minoan Glyptic looked more the thing.

I really din't want this to end in tiresome arguemnt just have a stimulating discussion.
vale
Maior






--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gualterus_graecus" <waltms1@...> wrote:
>
>
> Now you're just making stuff up. There is no "very ancient cultus already in the Near East" for Attis. The earliest archaeological evidence for Attis having any sort of possibly divine status comes from a relief from the late 4th/early 3rd century BCE in Piraeus, Greece. After that you have the 3rd century sanctuary at Pessinus in Anatolia. Yes, there were figurines found in 2nd century BCE deposits in Rome, but it is not clear how they relate to the cult of Cybele, and it has been doubted whether they are evidence of Attis being considered a god (pace Vermaseren). Lancellotti discusses all of this evidence in _Attis, Between Myth and History: King, Priest and God_ (2002) 32-80.
>
> I also fear that you don't really know what a defixio is. It is NOT a votive offering and so not only does it NOT imply the presence of some sanctuary or cultic site, but defixiones were often buried in places they should not be easily discovered, which further makes it improbable that there was some cultic site at the find spot. They are curses, often inscribed on lead, but sometimes other material, rolled up and often pierced with a nail and buried. And the tomb? That's obviously a reference to the mythological tomb, not a *real* one, *unless* the defixiones were put in a grave site, which does often happen, in which case it was someone else's tomb and the reference worked by analogy.
>
> Have you ever looked at the variety of inscriptions and divine invocations on defixiones? Let me give you an example. In well finds described in Jordan, "Defixiones from a Well Near the Southwest Corner of the Athenian Agora" Hesperia 54.3 (1985) 205-255, there are 11 invocations on defixiones to Seth-Typhon. Was there ever a cult to Seth-Typhon in Athens, let alone Greece? No. Defixiones may invoke "angels" and a variety of obscure divine names for whom no evidence exists of any cultic activity. So, how should you interpret a more well-known god popping up on defixiones? Are you justified to immediately conclude "Attis had a cultus that spanned the Empire as early as the 1-2nd century"? Certainly not.
>
> "Ando is hopeless"? Did you actually read his book? Have you read Galanakis' book for that matter? Please explain how Galanakis is relevant to the discussion about how ancients viewed the divine "substance" of the gods.
>
> -Gualterus
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> >
> > Salve Graece;
> > hmm, this is silly. Attis had a very ancient cultus already in the Near East. So you mean to say there is this god, who is appealed to, whose grave is mentioned and there is no cult involved? Ridiculous, especially when you consider that these finds are in Mainz, Germany and Spain, about as far from Phrygia as you can get.
> >
> > Alvar says as well, discussing "Invictus" that the entire astral aspect of Attis comes into play. So we have the megaron, tomb mentioned, Invictus, unconquered, and a defixione involving someone in the tomb. This is Attis appealed to as underworld judge & Invictus, a god who hears & has conquered death.
> >
> > What we have to do is say: Attis had a cultus that spanned the Empire as early as the 1-2nd century, that focused on his death & conquering of death. If he were a zombie he wouldn't be Invictus. Additionally there wouldn't be mysteries which from the very beginning were about the Hierogamos. Don't forget the cult of Attis is that of the dying and reborn king who has sacred renewing sex with the goddess.
> >
> > I have a feeling you are unfamiliar with the material on Attis or you wouldn't be making these assertions.
> >
> > For a very long time, there has been an assumption that the cult of Attis came much later, but then there were the archeological finds right on Magna Mater's temple of Attis figurines, dating from the Republic. Now this. It's huge.
> > As I said the issues are for scholars stuck in a narrative & christian apologists who somehow feel the Attis cult invalidates their own. (I dont' understand i,t but it's not my problem)
> >
> > Ando is hopeless, try Galanakis' "Minoan Glyptic" instead
> > " The third study views baetyls as "media for summoning the divinity who was about to resurrect and bring back fertility to nature", (p. 92) linking them to aniconic forms of Kybele, Kubela and Kubana in the Levant and Anatolia (p. 93);
> >
> > http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2007/2007-02-03.html
> > vale
> > Maior
> >
> >
> >
> > > Furthermore, you keep talking about the "resurrection" issue in as much an apologetic tone as Cato. The hard fact is that the notion of salvation through resurrection is a Christian idea, and the Latin and Greek terminology behind the English word point to reconstitution of the body.
> > >
> > > There's absolutely no reason to piggy-back on this Christian notion to make sense of Attis and other dying gods. In the mythology Attis doesn't resurrect, but goes into a zombie state, but as Alvar points out, "the offer of resurrection need not only be made by deities that have themselves experienced death and resurrection" (138) and that a myth need not be totally transparent to analysis (139). What Alvar is arguing in these pages (and building off what he says about oppositions on page 71) is that how followers make use of the god and what the mythology says suggests various levels of ambiguity and interpretation. The only weakness in Alvar's discussion on these pages is that he somewhat loosely slips between talking about resurrection and immortality. At any rate, Attis is a zombie, but can offer immortality to followers. Only his hair and grows and finger wiggles, but he can be depicted at the chariot reins next to Cybele.
> > >
> > > Then, is Attis' supernatural power coextensive with his zombified body? Hardly. The contradictions and ambiguities involved in getting at the "substance" of the gods is what Ando struggles with in _The Matter of the Gods_ (2008). He brings up the discussion of the black stone of Cybele brought to Rome. Was it *the* goddess or only a copy of a stone that represented her? Ancient usage was to refer to it as *the* goddess, but obviously there were many such stones in the ancient Mediterranean. Ando concludes, "Recognizing further hypostases beyond or between the divine and the corporeal, people in the ancient world might well have understood that Cybele somehow was, and yet was not coextensive with, their black stones; and in that way, she might also have been, but not been identical with, other black stones" (42). I think this is a much more productive approach--Attis was his zombified body in a similar way that Cybele was the physical stone; there are states of being that overlap but are not coextensive with corporeal manifestation. Followers don't need Attis to resurrect Lazarus-style; the fact that he could stop death by becoming a zombie somehow made it worthwhile tapping into the other hypostases constituting his divinity.
> > >
> > > -Gualterus
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Salve Graece;
> > > > I don't talk to him, he just repeats the same apologetics and doesn't read any serious scholarship.
> > > >
> > > > Why would anyone appeal to Attis, call him deum maxsime, tie him to the 12 gods if they didn't think he'd do any good? Why appeal to him as a god of cosmic justice?
> > > >
> > > > Alvar does a very good job of bringing sense to academic discussion. A propos of Attis and his resurrection, he rightly discusses that no one would worship a zombie whose little pinkie grew. what does the worshipper get from that? zero. it seems nonsensical but scholars don't think of that.
> > > >
> > > > I'm quite open about the entire business, as it doesn't affect my world view if Attis developed later or earlier. It does to scholars who've invested in the idea that Attis as god and saviour is late. But seeing the distribution of the defixiones, this is a big deal and so early too. Scholars will have to revise. As Agricola says the entire business of religious reconstruction is 'as if' archeology is vital to showing us what was really going on in material culture, as opposed to intellectuals who composed texts.
> > > > vale
> > > > Maior
> > > >
> > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gualterus_graecus" <waltms1@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Salvete,
> > > > >
> > > > > Well, these are two separate things. Appeal to a god in a curse tablet doesn't imply that there is a full blown cult in place, or that, if there is a cult, it must resemble all of the details witnessed in it two centuries later. It is interesting that Attis can be addressed as "deum maxsime" (sic) in the late first or early second century, but a wide variety of gods get invoked in curse tablets for whom there is no evidence of a regular, contemporary, cult. I think you two are talking past each other.
> > > > >
> > > > > Valete,
> > > > >
> > > > > Gualterus Graecus
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cato Maiori sal.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Nope. "Common understanding" is that the Attis cult derived many of its particulars from Christianity as it saw the rapid expansion of the new faith and wanted to get on that bandwagon, so to speak.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The "eyewitness accounts" are from Christian writers like Firmicus Maternus (c. AD 350), and the calendar of AD 354 is the very first note of any of the festivals for Attis aside from the 27th of March.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Vale,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cato
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Salve Graece;
> > > > > > > bene I just got up an hour ago, 394 C.E. is the date. Oh no problem with christian cults or Judaean cults etc but anything later turns into spam. See below.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I find the latest finds of defixiones in Germany and Spain very interesting. It seems common understanding of Attis as god/saviour must be pushed back to the 1st -2nd century C.E.
> > > > > > > vale
> > > > > > > Maior
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74676 From: Timothy or Stephen Gallagher Date: 2010-03-29
Subject: Tribunes
Salvete Tribunes,



I would like to thank Tribune C. Curius Saturninus for taking the time to answer my request for a veto of the proposed SCU. While he has declined to veto the SCU as requested he has responded to the request and explained his reasoning for not doing so.



I respectfully ask that the other FOUR Tribunes to respond to my request and to veto the SCU as no emergency exist that requires the use of such an extraordinary instrument.



An SCU is NOT an item of ordinary governance and should be reserved for a truly extraordinary occasion.



If this use of an SCU is allowed to stand and it is ok to bypass legally mandated elections in order to fill a vacant office, then what would stop a majority of the Senate from passing an SCU in say, November 2763, naming the Consuls, Praetors and other magistrates for the year 2764?



Valete,



Ti. Galerius Paulinus

Mea gloria fides


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74677 From: Timothy or Stephen Gallagher Date: 2010-03-29
Subject: Tribunes
Salvete Tribunes,



I would like to thank Tribune C. Curius Saturninus for taking the time to answer my request for a veto of the proposed SCU. While he has declined to veto the SCU as I requested he has responded to the request and explained his reasoning for not doing so.



I respectfully ask that the other FOUR Tribunes to respond to my request and to veto the SCU as no emergency exist that requires the use of such an extraordinary instrument.



An SCU is NOT an item of ordinary governance and should be reserved for a truly extraordinary occasion.



If this use of an SCU is allowed to stand and it is ok to bypass legally mandated elections in order to fill a vacant office, then what would stop a majority of the Senate from passing an SCU in say, November 2763, naming the Consuls, Praetors and other magistrates for the year 2764?



Valete



Ti. Galerius Paulinus

Mea gloria fides


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74678 From: C.Maria Caeca Date: 2010-03-29
Subject: Re: Comitia centuriata open
Salvete Omnes,

I am a bit confused by this post. I followed the link to this group, only to find that it is restricted to members only. I am not a member of this group, and in fact, was not aware of it until this post. Is this a group for citizens, or for officials with imperium? If I cannot join, can I access the files, or was this post intended for others ...members of the Government ...and not citizens? Could you explain, since, if there is something I should do, or read and respond to, I would like very much to do so, as is my duty.

Respectfully,
C. Maria

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74679 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2010-03-29
Subject: Re: Comitia centuriata open
Salve Maria,

Amica, you can join, all citizens can and should join!

Cura ut valeas,

Julia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "C.Maria Caeca" <c.mariacaeca@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> I am a bit confused by this post. I followed the link to this group, only to find that it is restricted to members only. I am not a member of this group, and in fact, was not aware of it until this post. Is this a group for citizens, or for officials with imperium? If I cannot join, can I access the files, or was this post intended for others ...members of the Government ...and not citizens? Could you explain, since, if there is something I should do, or read and respond to, I would like very much to do so, as is my duty.
>
> Respectfully,
> C. Maria
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74680 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2010-03-29
Subject: Re: Lararivm
Salve,

Congratulations, I would love to see your lararia! Please ask one of the webmasters if you need help with the wiki - but rather than use the rich text editor on this list to post a link you can simply copy and paste the url/link of your image - that is sometimes the simplest way.

Vale optime,

Julia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Andreas" <pagermanicvs@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete,
>
> I believed this post would appear with a link to my attached fotos,
> since it might be of interest what I've done to some.
>
> Valete,D.Arm.Brvtvs
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Andreas Lachmann <pagermanicvs@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Salve et salvete,
> >
> > it took me long enough but I finally finished my LARARIVM.
> >
> > Vale et valete, D.Arm.Brvtvs
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Get the latest jobs delivered. Sign up for SEEK Jobmail.
> > http://clk.atdmt.com/NMN/go/157639755/direct/01/
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 74681 From: C.Maria Caeca Date: 2010-03-29
Subject: Re: Comitia centuriata open
Maria Iuliae sal,

Gratias tibi Ago, Julia Amica! OK, I'll do that ...immediately, if not sooner (Mercurius and my computer willing).

Vale quam optime,
Maria Caeca

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]