Maria Iuliae sal,

Gratias tibi Ago, Julia Amica! OK, I'll do that ...immediately, if not sooner (Mercurius and my computer willing).

Vale quam optime,
Maria Caeca

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This response mystifies me. It is a wild flailing in the dark, but all it has managed to blindly grasp is a wet noodle, and that wet noodle is Munn's book. It has very little to do with Attis and certainly nothing to do with the cult of Attis, especially because Munn's timeline ends in the fifth century BCE, before any evidence for the cult of Attis exists. He discusses Atys, son of Croesus, in pgs 141-145, but that really has no bearing on the history of the cult--in fact, the only acknowledgment of its *later* existence is a brief reference on 145 to "the later cult of the dying Attis".

Should the name of Atys and Attis even be connected? Bremmer, "Attis: A Greek God in Anatolian Pessinous and Catullan Rome" Mnemosyne 57.5 (2004) 536-40 doesn't think so. But, more importantly, Attis/Atys/Ates as it shows up in the Anatolian epigraphic sources refers to a man, not to a god; sometimes a royal proper name, sometimes a title of a religious office (e.g. Pessinus). Even more damning, nowhere does there exist a Phrygian monument with a depiction of Attis or any reference to him as a god--both of those have to wait for the Greeks in the fourth century BCE. Yes, Attis' "oriental" depiction is a Greek concoction. When you're next at the library go get Roller, "Attis on Greek Votive Monuments; Greek God or Phrygian?" Hesperia 63.2 (1994) 245-262. In short, Attis as a divinity is not coterminous with the history of the Cybele cult.

Now, the meaning of the figurines found on the Palatine is uncertain. First of all, there are a variety of them--masks, pines, females, phalluses, baskets--and, of course, the Attis-like ones. However, Cybele is virtually absent from among the figurines. So, on the one hand, is Attis here a divine figurine among other figurines which don't seem to be (a pine or basket of fruit?), or, on the other hand, if all of them are divine symbols, why is Cybele missing? Finally, any sort of representation of Attis is missing when the cult of Cybele arrives at Ostia. So, really, the evidence is too unclear to say that Attis was recognized as a god in/around Rome in the 2nd century BCE.

As for defixiones, I've already explained why they are not evidence of a cult of Attis. Obviously, they speak to the presence of a notion that Attis is divine, but the buck stops there.

Finally, as for resurrection, I was referring to salvation through the resurrection of a god, not the idea of any sort of bodily resurrection. Yes, the latter exists in Judaism and Zoroastrianism, but not the former. The former is a peculiar innovation of Christianity.

-Gualterus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> Maior Graeco Piscino quititibusque spd;
>
> *sigh* I have mentioned many times Mark Munn's brilliant book
> The Mother of the Gods, Athens, and the Tyranny of Asia. A Study of Sovereignty in Ancient Religion, 2006
> http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2006/2006-10-27.html
>
> "explores the origins of the cult of the Mother of the Gods and her connection to sovereignty in Phrygia. Midas, the Phrygian king, who quickly passed from history into myth, is the centre of a number of stories that explain his wealth and power as based on his close connection and veneration of the Mother. Munn examines Greek literary traditions, the archaeological record of Phrygian monuments and Near Eastern sources"
>
> Additionally Atys is given as the name of Croesus son (Croesus was the last king of Lydia (reigned 560-46 B.C.E)
>
> This fits right in with the mysteries of Attis and Cybele as a sacred marriage, hierogamos.
>
> The Attis statuettes found on the Palatine (they are male figurines wearing a phrygian cap, baring their sex, which is devoid of penis and testes} are dated by Professor Pensabene from 190 to 110 B.C.E. they were found with statuettes of masks and pines.
>
>
> The deifixiones, commonly called curse tablets, date from the 1 & early 2nd century. Attis is addressed as Deus, Tyranne, Invictus.
>
> If you want to ignore or pretend the evidence exists that is your choice.
>
> I find it all very interesting. Cybele is connected to Kubaba, the Neo-Hittite goddess, who was worshipped in SouthEastern Anatolia and Northern Syria.
> http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/me/b/basalt_stela_of_goddess_kubaba.aspx
>
> I find it all fascinating. Anyway if you wish to insist Attis is a graeco-roman creation. go right on.
>
>
> Finally about the term 'resurrection.' The concept of bodily resurrection comes from the Zoroastrians of Central Asia, the Israelites got it from them when they were in exile. As for the early christians I have no idea, maybe from Iran.
>
> So no, Resurrection isn't a christian idea as you wrote. For all I know, not being a Semitic Scholar or an Iranologist, it might have been common over these areas. Or not. I do know that Ba'al of Ugarit died and was revived, so too Tammuz of Sumer, Adonis et al.
>
> I have read Ando, and thought him absurd. I have to find a long essay I read on baetyls, which the author differentiated, I'll find the reference for you Minoan Glyptic looked more the thing.
>
> I really din't want this to end in tiresome arguemnt just have a stimulating discussion.
> vale
> Maior
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gualterus_graecus" <waltms1@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Now you're just making stuff up. There is no "very ancient cultus already in the Near East" for Attis. The earliest archaeological evidence for Attis having any sort of possibly divine status comes from a relief from the late 4th/early 3rd century BCE in Piraeus, Greece. After that you have the 3rd century sanctuary at Pessinus in Anatolia. Yes, there were figurines found in 2nd century BCE deposits in Rome, but it is not clear how they relate to the cult of Cybele, and it has been doubted whether they are evidence of Attis being considered a god (pace Vermaseren). Lancellotti discusses all of this evidence in _Attis, Between Myth and History: King, Priest and God_ (2002) 32-80.
> >
> > I also fear that you don't really know what a defixio is. It is NOT a votive offering and so not only does it NOT imply the presence of some sanctuary or cultic site, but defixiones were often buried in places they should not be easily discovered, which further makes it improbable that there was some cultic site at the find spot. They are curses, often inscribed on lead, but sometimes other material, rolled up and often pierced with a nail and buried. And the tomb? That's obviously a reference to the mythological tomb, not a *real* one, *unless* the defixiones were put in a grave site, which does often happen, in which case it was someone else's tomb and the reference worked by analogy.
> >
> > Have you ever looked at the variety of inscriptions and divine invocations on defixiones? Let me give you an example. In well finds described in Jordan, "Defixiones from a Well Near the Southwest Corner of the Athenian Agora" Hesperia 54.3 (1985) 205-255, there are 11 invocations on defixiones to Seth-Typhon. Was there ever a cult to Seth-Typhon in Athens, let alone Greece? No. Defixiones may invoke "angels" and a variety of obscure divine names for whom no evidence exists of any cultic activity. So, how should you interpret a more well-known god popping up on defixiones? Are you justified to immediately conclude "Attis had a cultus that spanned the Empire as early as the 1-2nd century"? Certainly not.
> >
> > "Ando is hopeless"? Did you actually read his book? Have you read Galanakis' book for that matter? Please explain how Galanakis is relevant to the discussion about how ancients viewed the divine "substance" of the gods.
> >
> > -Gualterus
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Salve Graece;
> > > hmm, this is silly. Attis had a very ancient cultus already in the Near East. So you mean to say there is this god, who is appealed to, whose grave is mentioned and there is no cult involved? Ridiculous, especially when you consider that these finds are in Mainz, Germany and Spain, about as far from Phrygia as you can get.
> > >
> > > Alvar says as well, discussing "Invictus" that the entire astral aspect of Attis comes into play. So we have the megaron, tomb mentioned, Invictus, unconquered, and a defixione involving someone in the tomb. This is Attis appealed to as underworld judge & Invictus, a god who hears & has conquered death.
> > >
> > > What we have to do is say: Attis had a cultus that spanned the Empire as early as the 1-2nd century, that focused on his death & conquering of death. If he were a zombie he wouldn't be Invictus. Additionally there wouldn't be mysteries which from the very beginning were about the Hierogamos. Don't forget the cult of Attis is that of the dying and reborn king who has sacred renewing sex with the goddess.
> > >
> > > I have a feeling you are unfamiliar with the material on Attis or you wouldn't be making these assertions.
> > >
> > > For a very long time, there has been an assumption that the cult of Attis came much later, but then there were the archeological finds right on Magna Mater's temple of Attis figurines, dating from the Republic. Now this. It's huge.
> > > As I said the issues are for scholars stuck in a narrative & christian apologists who somehow feel the Attis cult invalidates their own. (I dont' understand i,t but it's not my problem)
> > >
> > > Ando is hopeless, try Galanakis' "Minoan Glyptic" instead
> > > " The third study views baetyls as "media for summoning the divinity who was about to resurrect and bring back fertility to nature", (p. 92) linking them to aniconic forms of Kybele, Kubela and Kubana in the Levant and Anatolia (p. 93);
> > >
> > > http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2007/2007-02-03.html
> > > vale
> > > Maior
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Furthermore, you keep talking about the "resurrection" issue in as much an apologetic tone as Cato. The hard fact is that the notion of salvation through resurrection is a Christian idea, and the Latin and Greek terminology behind the English word point to reconstitution of the body.
> > > >
> > > > There's absolutely no reason to piggy-back on this Christian notion to make sense of Attis and other dying gods. In the mythology Attis doesn't resurrect, but goes into a zombie state, but as Alvar points out, "the offer of resurrection need not only be made by deities that have themselves experienced death and resurrection" (138) and that a myth need not be totally transparent to analysis (139). What Alvar is arguing in these pages (and building off what he says about oppositions on page 71) is that how followers make use of the god and what the mythology says suggests various levels of ambiguity and interpretation. The only weakness in Alvar's discussion on these pages is that he somewhat loosely slips between talking about resurrection and immortality. At any rate, Attis is a zombie, but can offer immortality to followers. Only his hair and grows and finger wiggles, but he can be depicted at the chariot reins next to Cybele.
> > > >
> > > > Then, is Attis' supernatural power coextensive with his zombified body? Hardly. The contradictions and ambiguities involved in getting at the "substance" of the gods is what Ando struggles with in _The Matter of the Gods_ (2008). He brings up the discussion of the black stone of Cybele brought to Rome. Was it *the* goddess or only a copy of a stone that represented her? Ancient usage was to refer to it as *the* goddess, but obviously there were many such stones in the ancient Mediterranean. Ando concludes, "Recognizing further hypostases beyond or between the divine and the corporeal, people in the ancient world might well have understood that Cybele somehow was, and yet was not coextensive with, their black stones; and in that way, she might also have been, but not been identical with, other black stones" (42). I think this is a much more productive approach--Attis was his zombified body in a similar way that Cybele was the physical stone; there are states of being that overlap but are not coextensive with corporeal manifestation. Followers don't need Attis to resurrect Lazarus-style; the fact that he could stop death by becoming a zombie somehow made it worthwhile tapping into the other hypostases constituting his divinity.
> > > >
> > > > -Gualterus
> > > >
> > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Salve Graece;
> > > > > I don't talk to him, he just repeats the same apologetics and doesn't read any serious scholarship.
> > > > >
> > > > > Why would anyone appeal to Attis, call him deum maxsime, tie him to the 12 gods if they didn't think he'd do any good? Why appeal to him as a god of cosmic justice?
> > > > >
> > > > > Alvar does a very good job of bringing sense to academic discussion. A propos of Attis and his resurrection, he rightly discusses that no one would worship a zombie whose little pinkie grew. what does the worshipper get from that? zero. it seems nonsensical but scholars don't think of that.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm quite open about the entire business, as it doesn't affect my world view if Attis developed later or earlier. It does to scholars who've invested in the idea that Attis as god and saviour is late. But seeing the distribution of the defixiones, this is a big deal and so early too. Scholars will have to revise. As Agricola says the entire business of religious reconstruction is 'as if' archeology is vital to showing us what was really going on in material culture, as opposed to intellectuals who composed texts.
> > > > > vale
> > > > > Maior
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gualterus_graecus" <waltms1@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Salvete,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Well, these are two separate things. Appeal to a god in a curse tablet doesn't imply that there is a full blown cult in place, or that, if there is a cult, it must resemble all of the details witnessed in it two centuries later. It is interesting that Attis can be addressed as "deum maxsime" (sic) in the late first or early second century, but a wide variety of gods get invoked in curse tablets for whom there is no evidence of a regular, contemporary, cult. I think you two are talking past each other.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Valete,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Gualterus Graecus
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Cato Maiori sal.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Nope. "Common understanding" is that the Attis cult derived many of its particulars from Christianity as it saw the rapid expansion of the new faith and wanted to get on that bandwagon, so to speak.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The "eyewitness accounts" are from Christian writers like Firmicus Maternus (c. AD 350), and the calendar of AD 354 is the very first note of any of the festivals for Attis aside from the 27th of March.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Vale,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Cato
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Salve Graece;
> > > > > > > > bene I just got up an hour ago, 394 C.E. is the date. Oh no problem with christian cults or Judaean cults etc but anything later turns into spam. See below.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I find the latest finds of defixiones in Germany and Spain very interesting. It seems common understanding of Attis as god/saviour must be pushed back to the 1st -2nd century C.E.
> > > > > > > > vale
> > > > > > > > Maior
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Salve Pauline;
interesting, what were Saturninus' reasons?
vale
Maior

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Timothy or Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Salvete Tribunes,
>
>
>
> I would like to thank Tribune C. Curius Saturninus for taking the time to answer my request for a veto of the proposed SCU. While he has declined to veto the SCU as I requested he has responded to the request and explained his reasoning for not doing so.
>
>
>
> I respectfully ask that the other FOUR Tribunes to respond to my request and to veto the SCU as no emergency exist that requires the use of such an extraordinary instrument.
>
>
>
> An SCU is NOT an item of ordinary governance and should be reserved for a truly extraordinary occasion.
>
>
>
> If this use of an SCU is allowed to stand and it is ok to bypass legally mandated elections in order to fill a vacant office, then what would stop a majority of the Senate from passing an SCU in say, November 2763, naming the Consuls, Praetors and other magistrates for the year 2764?
>
>
>
> Valete
>
>
>
> Ti. Galerius Paulinus
>
> Mea gloria fides
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

C. Petronius Ti. Paulino s.p.d.,

> I respectfully ask that the other FOUR Tribunes to respond to my request and to veto the SCU as no emergency exist that requires the use of such an extraordinary instrument.

Where is your request? What reasons are yours? When did you sent me your request?

Vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
tribunus Plebis Arcoiali scribebat
A. d. III Kalendas Apriles P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.

C. Petronius Quiritibus s.p.d.,

> I have formally requested that the Tribunes veto the proposed SCU and I have posted this note here as evidence of that formal request.

I did not receive this request...

**********************************************************************

>
> Salvete Tribunes, Consul et al

Je suis bien content de lire cette preuve mais je n'ai jamais reçu votre courrier...

> Our Consul's most recent statement that an SCU is NOT an emergency measure flies in the face of Roman history and it use by the Roman Senate. There were many Romans, J. Caesar among them, who believed that an SCU was unconstitutional within the framework of the Roman state.

La Constitution prévoit:

E. The Senate shall have the power to issue the Senatus consultum ultimum (the ultimate decree of the Senate). When in effect, this decree will supersede all other governmental bodies and authorities (with the exception of the dictator) and allow the Senate to invest the consuls with absolute powers to deal with a specific situation, subject only to their collegial veto and review by the Senate. Even under the authority of the Senatus consultum ultimum, the consuls may only temporarily suspend this Constitution; they may not enact any permanent changes hereto.

Mais il est vrai que l'élection d'un édile curule pour remplacer un édile curule démissionnaire ne nécessite pas un SCU.

> We have a vacancy in the office of Aedilis Curulis which can and should be filled by holding of an election per the laws and constitution of the republic.

Les consuls doivent procéder à des élections.

> I formally request that the Tribunes veto the proposed SCU as being against the letter and more importantly the spirit of the constitution.
> There is no crisis that needs to be dealt with through an SCU therefore we do not need one.

You are right. Regarding the Constitution about the SCU I Veto.

Selon le paragraphe IV A 7 a 3, et en tant que Tribun de la Plèbe, j'use de mon droit d'intercession.

Le plaignant est le sénateur Ti. Galerius Paulinus.

La Constituion ne donne pas à un SCU le pouvoir de remplacer une élection normale. En accord avec l'esprit de la Constitution et préférant la tenue d'élections j'oppose mon VETO à cette proposition de SCU.

Optime valete.

C. Petronius Dexter
Tribunus Plebis Arcoiali scribebat
A. d. III Kalendas Apriles P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.

M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus Quiritibus, cultorisbus Deorum et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit: Curate ut valeatis, et Di vos servent.

Hodie est ante diem III Kalendas Apriles; haec dies comitialis est: Saluti, Paci, et Concordiae

O Pax, come to us holding tasseled wheat, and pour forth from the breast of your robe a harvest of fruit (Tibullus I.10.67-68).

AUC 763 / 10 BCE: Pax Romana: Augustus dedicates statues to Salus, Pax, and Concordia after restoring each of Their temples.

Twenty years following the Battle of Actium had been marked by peace and prosperity. This was the Pax Romana established by Caesar Augustus. Augustus promoted this view by emphasizing Salus, the Goddess of Public Safety and Welfare, Pax, the Goddess of Peace, and then Concordia to denote the harmony between the various classes of the Roman Empire. Statues, such as he dedicated on this date, would be copied for temples in other places, and images of the statues also appeared on the coins of Augustus to advertise his generosity and further promote the themes of his reign. In this use of art and symbolism to forge a unified empired Augustus followed the example of Alexander the Great, only on a greater scale and over a longer duration of time.

The Temple of Salus stood upon an arm of the Quirinal that was called the collis Salutaris. It was vowed in 311 BCE by C. Iunius Bubulcus Brutus during a battle with the Samnites. He apparently contracted for its construction in 306 when he was censor, and then dedicated it on 5 August 303 or 302 BCE while he was dictator. It was in this temple that frescoes were painted, and signed by C. Fabius, earning him and his family the cognomen Pictor.

There were different temples built for Concordia. The earliest was said to have been vowed by L. Furius Camillus in 367 BCE in connection with the passage of the leges Liciniae. This temple stood near the Volcanal just northwest of the Forum. After Gaius Gracchus was murdered, the Senate ordered L. Opimius to restore the temple. It then became a place where the Senate frequently met. It is probably this Temple of Concordia that is referred to by Augustus, rather than the others, since Tiberius undertook it restoration three years later and decorated it with trophies from his campaigns in Germania. It was rededicated as the Temple of Concordia Augustae on 16 January 7 BCE, in the name of Tiberius and his deceased brother Drusus.


A Bramble-Frog for the Millet Field

"Many persons, for the more effectual protection of millet, recommend that a bramble-frog should be carried at night round the field before the hoeing is done, and then buried in an earthen vessel in the middle of it. If this is done, they say, neither sparrows nor worms will attack the crop. The frog, however, must be disinterred before the millet is cut; for if this is neglected, the produce will be bitter. It is posed, too, that all seeds which have been touched by the shoulders of a mole are remarkably productive." ~ C. Plinius Secundus, Historia Naturalis 18.45


Pulling Hay from the Horn

Why do they tie hay to one horn of vicious bulls to warn anyone who meets them to be on guard? Is it because bulls, horses, asses, men, all wax wanton through stuffing and gorging? So Sophocles has somewhere written, `You prance, as does a colt, from glut of food, for both your belly and your cheeks are full.' Wherefore also the Romans used to say that Marcus Crassus had hay on his horn: for those who heckled the other chief men in the State were on their guard against assailing him, since they knew that he was vindictive and hard to cope with. Later, however, another saying was bandied about, that Caesar had pulled the hay from Crassus; for Caesar was the first to oppose Crassus in public policy and to treat him with contumely. ~ Plutarch, Roman Questions 71


Our thought for today is from Demophilus, Sentences 7:

A loquacious and ignorant man both in prayer and sacrifice contaminates a divine nature. The wise man alone is therefore a priest, he alone is a friend of the Divine and only he knows how to pray.

Consul P. Memmius Albucius omn. s.d.

Just for information of every one, and without prejudice of the official report, the Senate has approved yesterday Mon. March 29 (a.d. IV Kal. Apr.), 16:30 Rome time, all the items submitted by the consuls to its vote:

Item I – Provinces – Definition and delineation – European provinces – Oblast Kaliningrad - amendment
(Kaliningrad is (re-)integrated in Sarmatia province)

Item II – Provinces – Definition and delineation – Oceania Asia and Latin America provinces

Item III – Emergency Disaster fund - deletion

Item V – Aedilis curulis - appointment – senatus consultum ultimum

Item XIV – Budget 2763/2010

Item XV – Latinists – List update

Item XVI – Annual taxation (the consular edict will be issued soon)


Valete omnes,



Albucius cos.

Cato omnibus in foro SPD

"For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when He sees the blood on the lintel and on the two doorposts, the LORD will pass over the door and will not allow the Destroyer to come in to your houses to smite you. And you shall observe this event as an ordinance for you and your children forever. When you enter the land which the LORD will give you, as He has promised, you shall observe this rite. And when your children say to you, 'What does this rite mean to you?' you shall say, 'It is a Passover sacrifice to the LORD who passed over the houses of the sons of Israel in Egypt when He smote the Egyptians, but spared our homes.' And the people bowed low and worshiped." - Exodus 12:23-27

"In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month between the two evenings is the LORD'S Passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD; seven days ye shall eat unleavened bread." - Leviticus 23:5

Today is the first day of the great commemoration of the rescue of Israel out of their slavery in Egypt, called "Pesach" in Hebrew or "Passover" in English. I wish a very blessed and happy Passover to all our Jewish citizens!

Valete,

Cato

Salve Tribune Petronius Dexter,



Thank you for taking action on my request.



Vale



Ti. Galerius Paulinus



To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
From: jfarnoud94@...
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 04:27:13 +0000
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: VETO of C. Petronius Dexter





C. Petronius Quiritibus s.p.d.,

> I have formally requested that the Tribunes veto the proposed SCU and I have posted this note here as evidence of that formal request.

I did not receive this request...

**********************************************************************

>
> Salvete Tribunes, Consul et al

Je suis bien content de lire cette preuve mais je n'ai jamais re�u votre courrier...

> Our Consul's most recent statement that an SCU is NOT an emergency measure flies in the face of Roman history and it use by the Roman Senate. There were many Romans, J. Caesar among them, who believed that an SCU was unconstitutional within the framework of the Roman state.

La Constitution pr�voit:

E. The Senate shall have the power to issue the Senatus consultum ultimum (the ultimate decree of the Senate). When in effect, this decree will supersede all other governmental bodies and authorities (with the exception of the dictator) and allow the Senate to invest the consuls with absolute powers to deal with a specific situation, subject only to their collegial veto and review by the Senate. Even under the authority of the Senatus consultum ultimum, the consuls may only temporarily suspend this Constitution; they may not enact any permanent changes hereto.

Mais il est vrai que l'�lection d'un �dile curule pour remplacer un �dile curule d�missionnaire ne n�cessite pas un SCU.

> We have a vacancy in the office of Aedilis Curulis which can and should be filled by holding of an election per the laws and constitution of the republic.

Les consuls doivent proc�der � des �lections.

> I formally request that the Tribunes veto the proposed SCU as being against the letter and more importantly the spirit of the constitution.
> There is no crisis that needs to be dealt with through an SCU therefore we do not need one.

You are right. Regarding the Constitution about the SCU I Veto.

Selon le paragraphe IV A 7 a 3, et en tant que Tribun de la Pl�be, j'use de mon droit d'intercession.

Le plaignant est le s�nateur Ti. Galerius Paulinus.

La Constituion ne donne pas � un SCU le pouvoir de remplacer une �lection normale. En accord avec l'esprit de la Constitution et pr�f�rant la tenue d'�lections j'oppose mon VETO � cette proposition de SCU.

Optime valete.

C. Petronius Dexter
Tribunus Plebis Arcoiali scribebat
A. d. III Kalendas Apriles P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 3/30/2010 6:13:45 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
catoinnyc@... writes:

Today is the first day of the great commemoration of the rescue of Israel
out of their slavery in Egypt, called "Pesach" in Hebrew or "Passover" in
English. I wish a very blessed and happy Passover to all our Jewish
citizens!





Hey! Who are going build our Pyramids now!

Pharaoh


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve,



"Hey! Who are going build our Pyramids now!"




That would be the Goa'uld!



Vale



Paulinus





To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
From: QFabiusMaxmi@...
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 11:19:50 -0400
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Pesach Tov!






In a message dated 3/30/2010 6:13:45 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
catoinnyc@... writes:

Today is the first day of the great commemoration of the rescue of Israel
out of their slavery in Egypt, called "Pesach" in Hebrew or "Passover" in
English. I wish a very blessed and happy Passover to all our Jewish
citizens!

Hey! Who are going build our Pyramids now!

Pharaoh

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete , quritas ! Salve , Roma !

Last year in Bulgaria I and my friends have reconstructed wedding ceremony. What do you think of this reconstruction?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkfe3npg_Nc&feature=PlayList&p=7121C0874693FF89&index=15

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpDbd30FCBU&feature=PlayList&p=7121C0874693FF89&index=16

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZ22SgKNErs&feature=PlayList&p=7121C0874693FF89&index=17

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dLS6mR26Eo&feature=PlayList&p=7121C0874693FF89&index=18

This year we plan to spend some new rituals recreated and translated into latin language.
Vale !
Ti. Claudius Drusus

Maior quiritibus spd;
Judaean Passover is a nation-building myth, which has kept Jews together for Millenia.
The stories in the Hebrew Scriptures have no facts to back them up. So they are myths but as we can see myths are tremendously powerful. And the Egyptians paid their skilled labourers;-)

Here is a repost of a great link to an anthropology blog
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/09/ashg-2009-abstracts.html
showing that European Jews are genetically closest to Tuscan Italians. The destruction of the Temple and the subsequent diaspora led to intermarriage, before that was forbidden by Constantine & later christian emperors.
vale
Maior

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Timothy or Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@...> wrote:
>
>
> Salve,
>
>
>
> "Hey! Who are going build our Pyramids now!"
>
>
>
>
> That would be the Goa'uld!
>
>
>
> Vale
>
>
>
> Paulinus
>
>
>
>
>
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> From: QFabiusMaxmi@...
> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 11:19:50 -0400
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Pesach Tov!
>
>
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 3/30/2010 6:13:45 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> catoinnyc@... writes:
>
> Today is the first day of the great commemoration of the rescue of Israel
> out of their slavery in Egypt, called "Pesach" in Hebrew or "Passover" in
> English. I wish a very blessed and happy Passover to all our Jewish
> citizens!
>
> Hey! Who are going build our Pyramids now!
>
> Pharaoh
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Consular joint edict on the appointment of a curule aedile
(de designatione curulis aedilis)



In view of the senatus consultum ultimum of a.d. IV Kal. Mart. 2763 auc (March 29, 2010), asking the consuls to appoint the missing aedilis curulis by a joint consular edict based on the recommendation of the vote issued, during the same session, by the Curia;



Considering that the Senate has recommended the appointment of L. Julia Aquila to this position;



We, Publius Memmius Albucius and Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus, consuls, by the authority vested by the constitution, the laws and the Senate of Nova Roma, wishing to duly respect the confidence placed on us by the Senate ;


edict :



Article 1 - The recommendation, issued during last March 2763 auc session by the Senate, to appoint, in the frame of the senatus consultum ultimum decided during the same session, J. Julia Aquila, is taken in due consideration.



As a consequence, J. Julia Aquila is hereby appointed aedilis curulis.




Article 2 - The term of L. Julia Aquila, as aedilis curulis, shall begin on next Kal. Apr. 2763 auc. (Apr. 1st, 2010) and will end at the normal annual end of the term, on next pridie Kal. Ian. 2764 auc (Dec. 31, 2010).





Article 3 - The execution of the present edict, and therefore the entry in office of Julia, shall be postponed until the end of the time of a possible legal intercession thrown on the senatus consultum ultimum in the application of which it this edict is taken. In case of success of this intercession, the present edict shall naturally be void.




Article 4 - The present text shall be published in the Tabularium Novae Romae and in Nova Roma relevant internet 'discussion' lists, as well as notified to L. Julia Aquila.




Scripto Condate Scaldi Galliae simul Umeae Thulense, pridie Kal. Apr. MMDCCLXII a.u.c. (31st March 2010 c.c.) P. Memmio Albucio C. Fabio Buteone Quintiliano iterum coss.

_________________________________________________________________
Consultez gratuitement vos emails Orange, Gmail, Free, ... directement dans HOTMAIL !
http://www.windowslive.fr/hotmail/agregation/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You can't lump them all together. The Hebrew bible is a collection of a wide variety of texts of different genres of different levels of historicity. Of course, Torah is mostly fictional, but the later books increasingly have historical elements, and from about the Omride dynasty onward (1Kings and onward), there's good historical information in the texts.

-Gualterus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
...
> The stories in the Hebrew Scriptures have no facts to back them up. ...

Cato consules omnibusque in foro SPD

The senatus consultum ultimam which made this possible has been vetoed by the triobune Petronius Dexter, therefore this is an invalid act and has no standing in Nova Roman law.

Valete,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Publius Memmius Albucius <albucius_aoe@...> wrote:
>
>
> Consular joint edict on the appointment of a curule aedile
> (de designatione curulis aedilis)
>
>
>
> In view of the senatus consultum ultimum of a.d. IV Kal. Mart. 2763 auc (March 29, 2010), asking the consuls to appoint the missing aedilis curulis by a joint consular edict based on the recommendation of the vote issued, during the same session, by the Curia;
>
>
>
> Considering that the Senate has recommended the appointment of L. Julia Aquila to this position;
>
>
>
> We, Publius Memmius Albucius and Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus, consuls, by the authority vested by the constitution, the laws and the Senate of Nova Roma, wishing to duly respect the confidence placed on us by the Senate ;
>
>
> edict :
>
>
>
> Article 1 - The recommendation, issued during last March 2763 auc session by the Senate, to appoint, in the frame of the senatus consultum ultimum decided during the same session, J. Julia Aquila, is taken in due consideration.
>
>
>
> As a consequence, J. Julia Aquila is hereby appointed aedilis curulis.
>
>
>
>
> Article 2 - The term of L. Julia Aquila, as aedilis curulis, shall begin on next Kal. Apr. 2763 auc. (Apr. 1st, 2010) and will end at the normal annual end of the term, on next pridie Kal. Ian. 2764 auc (Dec. 31, 2010).
>
>
>
>
>
> Article 3 - The execution of the present edict, and therefore the entry in office of Julia, shall be postponed until the end of the time of a possible legal intercession thrown on the senatus consultum ultimum in the application of which it this edict is taken. In case of success of this intercession, the present edict shall naturally be void.
>
>
>
>
> Article 4 - The present text shall be published in the Tabularium Novae Romae and in Nova Roma relevant internet 'discussion' lists, as well as notified to L. Julia Aquila.
>
>
>
>
> Scripto Condate Scaldi Galliae simul Umeae Thulense, pridie Kal. Apr. MMDCCLXII a.u.c. (31st March 2010 c.c.) P. Memmio Albucio C. Fabio Buteone Quintiliano iterum coss.
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Consultez gratuitement vos emails Orange, Gmail, Free, ... directement dans HOTMAIL !
> http://www.windowslive.fr/hotmail/agregation/
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Cato Maiori sal.

Do you not even have the common decency to allow the expression of a wish for fellow citizens who celebrate this event to be made without making a snide comment? Perhaps you'd like to share some of the "facts" that "back...up" the stories of the Roman gods?

The Israelites weren't "skilled laborers"; they were slaves:

"So they put slave masters over them to oppress them with forced labor, and they built Pithom and Rameses as store cities for Pharaoh...The Israelites groaned in their slavery and cried out, and their cry for help because of their slavery went up to God...The LORD said, 'I have indeed seen the misery of My people in Egypt. I have heard them crying out because of their slave drivers, and I am concerned about their suffering.'" - Exodus 1:11, 2:23, 3:7

"The master might employ a slave in many different manners, such as in domestic service as the guardian of children, cooks, brewers or maids. They might be used as gardeners or field hands or in the stable. The master might also require the slave to learn a trade to improve his property (the slave)...Perhaps the worst treatment that a slave could be assigned was to work the quarries and mines." - The Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt, Donald B. Redford, Ed. (2001, The American University in Cairo Press)

Vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> Maior quiritibus spd;
> Judaean Passover is a nation-building myth, which has kept Jews together for Millenia.
> The stories in the Hebrew Scriptures have no facts to back them up. So they are myths but as we can see myths are tremendously powerful. And the Egyptians paid their skilled labourers;-)

> vale
> Maior
>
>

You're right the later parts with Persian Cyrus etc definitely not my area of knowledge.
You would be able to tell me if post Temple Judaism is modeled on Roman religion..? Thinking about Passover, a meal at home had me thiking of all those many graeco-roman sodales. In fact a lot Jewish religion focuses on the home like Roman domestic cult whereas before it all revolved around the temple cult...
vale
Maior

>
>
> You can't lump them all together. The Hebrew bible is a collection of a wide variety of texts of different genres of different levels of historicity. Of course, Torah is mostly fictional, but the later books increasingly have historical elements, and from about the Omride dynasty onward (1Kings and onward), there's good historical information in the texts.
>
> -Gualterus
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> >
> ...
> > The stories in the Hebrew Scriptures have no facts to back them up. ...
>

A. Tullia Scholastica quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque bonae voluntatis
S.P.D.

As noted in the forwarded message below, Yahoo has some April fool jokes
in store for us. As is, messages seem to be missing and polls rarely (if
ever) conclude when specified. Don¹t blame the NR government if you don¹t
get your mail...

Valete.

> ------ Forwarded Message
> From: Yahoo! Groups Team <y_groups_team@...>
> Reply-To: <moderatorcentral-owner@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 03:23:37 -0000
> To: <moderatorcentral@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [moderatorcentral] Groups planned outage: April 1, 2010
>

>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups members and owners may experience intermittent downtime
> beginning at 1pm PT on Thursday, April 1, 2010 while the Groups team performs
> regular maintenance on some of the systems. During this time Yahoo! Group
> members and owners may not be able to access the Yahoo! Groups site or receive
> Yahoo! Groups mails.
>
> We will update you as soon as the maintenance is complete. Thank you for your
> patience!
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus Quiritibus, cultoribus Deorum et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit: Luna dulcedonem in nos communicet.

Hodie est die pristini Kalendas Apriles; haec dies comitialis est: Lunae in Aventino..

"Therefore adoring You as though You were nurturing Venus Herself, whether You are female, or whether You are male, even so, Noctiluca, Illuminating the Night, You are a nurturing Moon." ~ Laevius, FPR fr. 26

"The Moon rules the months: this month's span ends with Luna cherished atop the Aventine Hill." ~ P. Ovidius Naso, Fasti 3.83-84

"Luna is so named certainly because She alone shines (lucet) at night. Therefore is She called Noctiluca on the Palatine; for there Her temple shines by night (noctu lucet). Certain persons call Her Diana, just as they call Sol Apollo. The one name, that of Apollo, is Greek, the other Latin. And from the fact that the Moon goes both high and widely, She is called Diviana. From the fact that the Moon is wont to be under the lands as well as over them, Ennius' Epicharmus calls Her Proserpina." ~ M. Terrentius Varro, Lingua Latina 5.68

The fasti Praenestini agrees with Ovid than tonight's festival for Luna was held on the Aventine where She had a temple. Varro refers to another Temple of Luna on the Palatine, and possibly to another festival. The Moon is the Queen of the Stars and by Varro's time the stars were associated with the heroes and honored dead. They were seen to travel along the Milky Way, called the celestial Sacra Via by Ovid (Met. 1), to a celestial abode near the Gods in the northern parts of the Heavens. (The Book of Psalms of Judaism and the Egyptian Book of Coming Forth likewise place the Council of the Gods in the northern parts of the Heavens.) These Lares had both a celestial home in the stars and were thought to be in the Underworld. But this Underworld is not below the ground in the earth itself; it is instead the celestial hemisphere beneath the celestial equator. The ecliptic, or the path of the sun through the Zodiac, is at an angle to the celestial equator equal to the tilt of the earth's axis, and the ecliptic intersects the celestial equator at two points. The sun crosses these two intersections at either equinox. The solstices are when the sun reaches the furthest points on the ecliptic above and below the celestial equator. The orbit of the moon around the earth is at a different angle so that its path crosses both above and below the ecliptic as well as above and below the celestial equator. The orbit of the moon thus carries it into the Underworld, as well as into the realm of the Gods above. Thereby was the Queen of the Stars identified with Proserpina who is Queen of the Underworld. But there are two parts to this identification.

As in Plato's Myth of Er, the souls of the dead travel along the Milky Way both into a celestial abode and, for some, as a path of return into life. The same idea is found with Virgil in the Aeneid. The entrance to the celestial Via Sacra was guarded by the pincers of Scorpio. Only those who were weighed in Libra could enter the path upward. And the return for some passed through Cancer. The Milky Way itself was said to have formed when the infant Hercules grasped the breasts of Juno too tightly while nursing in Jupiter's abode. That is, the stars that form the Milky Way are composed of the divine fire that came forth from Juno to nurish the semi-divine Hercules into godhood. Similarly, the divine fire forms the souls that carry the geniuses and the junos of the dead along the Via Sacra. Luna acts as their guide. As Proserpina She receives them into the Underworld of the dead, but as Juno Lucina Luna also leads the departed back into life through reincarnation. Varro continues by telling this additional aspect of Luna.

"She appears therefore to be called by the Latins also Juno Lucina, either because She is also the Earth, as the natural scientists say, and shines (lucet); or because from Her light in which conception takes place until that one in which there is a birth into light, the Moon continues to help, until She has brought it forth into the light of day when the months have passed, the name Juno Lucina was made from iuvare (to help) and lux (light). From this fact women in labor invoke Her; for the Moon is the guide to those that are born, since the months belong to Her." ~ M. Terrentius Varro, Lingua Latina 5.69

Conception provided for the growth of a physical body. The development of the foetus was under the providence of Luna. But here Varro refers to Luna leading a genius or juno in its fiery vehicle from its heavenly abode, down from the stars along the Milky Way into the physical body. Juno Lucina is not the same Goddess as Juno Capitolina, but the divine juno of Diana Lucina who Varro equates with Luna. The triple Goddess of Luna was variously represented as Proserpina, Ceres, and Venus, or as Proserpina, Diana, and Hecate, as well as in some other combinations. Here though we are concerned with only two, Luna as Proserpina and Diana Lucina. The body is 'reanimated;' that is, it is given a new soul with a genius, while the genius is once more placed into a physical body, 'reincarnated.' It is therefore not by accident that tonight's festival should be at the end of March and on the eve of the Kalends of April. Roman marriages performed in the later part of June might expect a child by the end of March. And April begins with the Veneralia, honoring the Goddess for Her part in brining happiness into a family with children. Thus in the feriae Noctulunae two aspects of Luna are celebrated, one who guides the spirits of the dead to their celestial abodes and another who, as Diana Lucina, leads them back into the light of day as though She were "nurturing Venus Herself."


Mithra and the Cavern

Sanctuaries of Mithra often resemble a cavern, with benches along the sides, facing images of Mithra over which an arc displays the symbols of the Zodiac. Porphyry, among others, tells us that the cavern symbolizes the physical universe as it was known at that time. He relates this further by relating the stone cavern to that of the physical body into which a soul is drawn. The soul, in turn, draws a spirit to it, as a soul in only a vehicle for a spirit, or what Plotinus referred to as one's True Being. Matter is symbolized here as stone, souls by water, and the spirit would be equated with fire.

"Thus also the Persians, as mystagogues, initiate the mystes by teaching him of the descent of the soul into the sublunary regions, and of its return from it, in a place which they name a grotto. For, as Eubulus says, Zoroaster was the first who consecrated in the neighbouring mountains of Persia, a spontaneously produced cave, having flowers and fountains, in honour of Mithra, the maker and father of all things; a cave, according to Zoroaster, bearing a resemblance of the cosmos that was fabricated by Mithra. But the things contained in the cavern being arranged according to commensurate intervals, were symbols of the mundane elements and regions."

"It is necessary, therefore, that souls, whether they are corporeal or incorporeal, while they attract a body to themselves, and especially such as are about to be bound to blood and moist bodies, should verge to humidity, and be corporalised, in consequence of being drenched in moisture. Hence the souls of the dead are evocated by the effusion of bile and blood; and souls that are lovers of body, by attracting a moist spirit, condense this humid vehicle like a cloud. For moisture condensed in the air constitutes a cloud. But the pneumatic vehicle being condensed in these souls, becomes visible through an excess of moisture. And among the number of these we must reckon those apparitions of images, which, from a spirit coloured by the influence of imagination, present themselves to mankind. But pure souls are averse from generation; so that, as Heraclitus says, 'a dry soul is the wisest.' Hence, here also the spirit becomes moist and more aqueous through the desire of generation, the soul thus attracting a humid vapour from verging to generation. Souls, therefore, proceeding into generation are the nymphs called naiades. Hence it is usual to call those soul nymphs who are married, as being conjoined to generation, and to pour water into (purification) baths from fountains, or rivers, or perpetual rills."

"This world, then, is sacred and pleasant to souls wno have now proceeded into nature." ~ Porphyry, On the Cave of the Nymphs exctracts from 2, 5, and 6

The descent of the fiery spirit into a physical body was often described as a kind of ensnaring by the planetary spheres, as described in the Poimandres. The spirit was also represented as a mummy buried in a dark and dank tomb. Upon death, with the dissolution of the physical body, the release of bodily fluids represented the release of the fiery spirit from its watery soul. Just as the elements of the physical body dissolve into their original material and are recycled by Nature, the redemption of the soul was taken to be its return into the World Soul, eventually the body of the World Soul to be reconstituted by a return of all souls. The spirit, made from the celestial fire, was expected to return to the spiritual fires of its origin. This was the resurrection, or rebirth of the spirit as it was released from its bodily form. So in a sense those initiated into the mysteries of Mithra, when emerging from their cavernous sanctuaries at the conclusion of their services, would experience a symbolic resurrection by returning into the light of day. This resurrection of the spirit from its physical body was also represented by an image of the young Mithra emerging from a stone cube that symbolized both the physical body from which He was released, and the physical universe of which He transcends.


Our thought for today is from L. Annaeus Seneca, Epistula 89:

"Practice is what you must keep under rein: rouse what is growing faint in you, tighten what is relaxed, master what is stubborn."

M. Moravius M. Hortensiae s. p. d.

I have always wondered why those texts neglected to mention that Egypt ruled Judea and Israel after Moses supposedly left the pharoah's domain, and also fail to mention the later contest between the Egyptians and Hittites to the north of 'the promised land.' That is, if one were to mistake such texts as history rather than myth.

Ah, but the myth of Moses was told centuries before he was supposedly born from a river, as his Egyptian name 'meses' means; the very same myth was told of Sargon the Great who even had his story carved on a mountainside. The same myth told of Sargon and the mythical Moses is like that told of Romulus and Remus being cast in a river, discovered by a shepherd and raised in squalid conditions, only to rise to kinghood due to their natural and noble heritage. Actually it was a myth common in the region. Even that of Horus, hidden by Isis in the Sea of Reeds, later to become Pharoah of the Two Lands, is a related myth. But then that is the myth of Tammuz, too, or Adonis if you prefer, abandoned in a river, discovered and raised by shepherds. The myth is celebrated, as with the March celebration for Attys, with a procession of people carrying reeds to represent His discovery alongside the river's edge.

First people take myth as literal and then confuse it as history and wrap it all up as faith. Faith: the suspencion of disbelief, belief in the unbelievable.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> Maior quiritibus spd;
> Judaean Passover is a nation-building myth, which has kept Jews together for Millenia.
> The stories in the Hebrew Scriptures have no facts to back them up. So they are myths but as we can see myths are tremendously powerful. And the Egyptians paid their skilled labourers;-)
>
> Here is a repost of a great link to an anthropology blog
> http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/09/ashg-2009-abstracts.html
> showing that European Jews are genetically closest to Tuscan Italians. The destruction of the Temple and the subsequent diaspora led to intermarriage, before that was forbidden by Constantine & later christian emperors.
> vale
> Maior
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Timothy or Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Salve,
> >
> >
> >
> > "Hey! Who are going build our Pyramids now!"
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > That would be the Goa'uld!
> >
> >
> >
> > Vale
> >
> >
> >
> > Paulinus
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > From: QFabiusMaxmi@
> > Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 11:19:50 -0400
> > Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Pesach Tov!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 3/30/2010 6:13:45 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> > catoinnyc@ writes:
> >
> > Today is the first day of the great commemoration of the rescue of Israel
> > out of their slavery in Egypt, called "Pesach" in Hebrew or "Passover" in
> > English. I wish a very blessed and happy Passover to all our Jewish
> > citizens!
> >
> > Hey! Who are going build our Pyramids now!
> >
> > Pharaoh
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

Cato Piscino sal.

For it is written, 'I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the cleverness of the clever I will set aside.' Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? ... Because the foolishness
of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than
men." - I Corinthians 1:18,25

Vale!

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "marcushoratius" <MHoratius@...> wrote:
>
> M. Moravius M. Hortensiae s. p. d.
>

> First people take myth as literal and then confuse it as history and wrap it all up as faith. Faith: the suspencion of disbelief, belief in the unbelievable.
>

Cato omnibus in foro SPD

Today is traditionally commemorated as the day upon which Judas began to look for an opportunity to betray Christ to the authorities in Jerusalem, becoming their spy.

"Now when Jesus was in Bethany, at the home of Simon the leper, a
woman came to Him with an alabaster vial of very costly perfume, and
she poured it on His head as He reclined at the table. But the
disciples were indignant when they saw this, and said, 'Why this
waste? For this perfume might have been sold for a high price and the
money given to the poor.' But Jesus, aware of this, said to them,
'Why do you bother the woman? For she has done a good deed to Me. For
you always have the poor with you; but you do not always have Me. For
when she poured this perfume on My body, she did it to prepare Me for
burial. Truly I say to you, wherever this gospel is preached in the
whole world, what this woman has done will also be spoken of in
memory of her.' Then one of the twelve, named Judas Iscariot, went to
the chief priests and said, "What are you willing to give me to
betray Him to you?" And they weighed out thirty pieces of silver to
him. From then on he began looking for a good opportunity to betray
Jesus." - Matthew 26:6-13

In various countries traditions have arisen on this day:

* Poland: children traditionally hurled an effigy of Judas from the church steeple. It was then dragged through the village, pounded with sticks and stones and what was left of it was drowned in a nearby pond or river.

* Czech Republic: the day is traditionally called Ugly Wednesday, Soot-Sweeping Wednesday or Black Wednesday, because chimneys used to be swept on this day, to be clean for Easter.

* Malta: this day is known as L-Erbgha tat-Tnieber (Drums' Wednesday), in the past children went to the parish church and drummed on the chairs to make the sound of thunderstorms.

Valete!

Cato

M. Moravius Gualtero Graeco s. p. d.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gualterus_graecus" <waltms1@...> wrote:
>
<snipped>
>
> Furthermore, you keep talking about the "resurrection" issue in as much an apologetic tone as Cato. The hard fact is that the notion of salvation through resurrection is a Christian idea, and the Latin and Greek terminology behind the English word point to reconstitution of the body.
>

Reconstitution of the physical body, if that is what you mean, is an absurdity. Such a ridiculous notion might be original to the misunderstanding of modern Christians, the most extreme form of this notion being the idea of a rapture, not found in sacred texts, but it was not what the ancient philosophers, specifically the Platonists and Neoplatonist, meant by resurrection.

Matter, void of form, was taken as something that potentially corrupts the spirit. The spirit, coming from the pneumatic realms, was supposedly composed of celestial fire. Through its descent to the material world, the spirit, or individual pneuma, attained a soul, or soulful body to act as a vehicle for the spirit and also as a mediator between the spirit and the physical body in which it was entombed. The dual-natured soul came from Plato's World Soul. The only "body" to be reconstituted was the World Soul as the individual souls are "redeemed" back into their origin. Even Paul spoke of this, although not quite in the same way. He said in first Corinthians that the soulful body, or psychicon would be replaced at death by a pneumicon, or spiritual body to serve as a new vehicle for the spirit ascend in as it returned into the pneumatic world. Paul specifically denounces the notion of "resurrection" as a "reconstitution of the body," that is, of the physical body.

Such a notion as you claim for Christianity was not held by Christians originally. Even in speaking about Jesus, he supposedly reappeared to his disciples with a pneumatic form, not a reconstituted physical body. In fact, in the one gospel, Jesus is not even crucified. He stands with Peter, laughing, as the physical body of the man he inhabited is crucified and the real Jesus, the one who is a spiritual being, is untouched. What you refer to is a notion that developed later and that has nothing to do with the forms of Christianity that prevailed in the early centuries of the common era.

Redemption is the discarding of the soul, and its return back into the World Soul. Resurrection, from resurgere, resurrecturus esse, means "to rise up again," or "to reascend," but not in the sense of a physical rebirth, or reconstitution of the physical form. Instead the Platonists and Neoplatonists speak of the individual pneuma ascending back to the pneumatic realms of its origin as a resurrection, a rebirth as a spiritual being, which is to say that at death the individual pneuma is released from the physical body that holds it down in the physical world so that it has an opportunity to ascend "back to the Fatherland."

As I demonstrated earlier by citing some Neoplatonists, the myth of Attys was taken by them as an allegory concerning the ascent and resurrection of Attys. Symbolically, castration removes him from the physical body of the realm of generation, and thereby is he freed for his ascension as a God. His physical body dissolves. Its elements are to be reused by Nature. So his blood turns into flowers, in one myth, other parts of the physical body may be reformed by Nature into the form of a pine tree or of anything else. That is inconsequential because Attys, the true being of Attys, is not a physical body. And it certainly is not meant in any literal sense as a transformation of Attys into a tree or into a zombie. The real resurrection, the one symbolised in the myth, is the resurgence, the ascent of the pneumatic and divine Attys. The divine which is in all of us, what Plotinus called the True Being of a person, is "reborn" at death. Although this is a Greek interpretation of the myth of Attys, in a cultus that was Greek as well, the same notion exists in the religio Romana as the genius of a person was considered to be reborn as a lar. That is why the anniversary of a person's death was celebrated as a dies natalis of his genius.

As in your citation of Alvar, "the offer of resurrection need not only be made by deities that have themselves experienced death and resurrection" (138). True, but the myths are allegories for every person who will necessarily pass through death and will naturally resurrect in some form. Jesus, Attys, Adonis, et cetera are merely allegorical figures who represent the Everyman since everyone suffers 'crucifixion' and the cross of physicallity, descends, and will resurrect to live among the Gods eventually.

You also mention how myth "suggests various levels of ambiguity and interpretation." True, but that does not mean that the misinterpretation of a myth by Christian conveys what the myth meant to the mystae. First, one has to understand how the ancients thought of their universe. Clearly the mystae thought differently than what Christians tried to represent of the mysteries. Although the words might be the same, the understanding of terms is quite different between what the Platonists said and how modern Christians misuse the words for their own vanities. "Reconstitution of the physical body" is simply absurd. Dissolution of the physical body is inevitable. But "the offer of resurrection" as taught in the mysteries is that one will live a new life following the death of the physical body, since his genius will be released from its imprisonment in the physical world and free then to choose whether to ascend to its home among the Gods, to become a God itself as Attys, Hercules, and others had before, or to ascend only so far to become a spiritual being, like a lar, or to descend once more in a transmigration to another physical form, as one may think of a genius locii or as the Pythagoreans thought even to devolve to a lesser life form. Actually, I find little difference in this regard of the mysteries to the understanding found in Buddhist and Hindu thought. If one wishes to understand the mysteries and lend an interpretation on what they "offered," then one should not confuse their meaning with the notions of modern Christians. These are quite different.

Salve!

That was a great wedding. My fiance and I did a similar wedding ceremony for a California event called Old Fort McArthur Days last year. I need to post the photos that were taken of the event. I'm making a website for our wedding and I will include them there and send out a link. We are getting married on July 30, the special day of Bona Fortuna and we are having a traditional Roman wedding.

What other ceremonies were you thinking of performing? I have done other religious ceremonies. Not in Latin. Not yet. Let me know- I'm very interested in learning more so I can do more things when my reenactment group does events.

Gratias,

L. Antonia Auriga

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "tiberius.claudius" <tiberius.claudius@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete , quritas ! Salve , Roma !
>
> Last year in Bulgaria I and my friends have reconstructed wedding ceremony. What do you think of this reconstruction?
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkfe3npg_Nc&feature=PlayList&p=7121C0874693FF89&index=15
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpDbd30FCBU&feature=PlayList&p=7121C0874693FF89&index=16
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZ22SgKNErs&feature=PlayList&p=7121C0874693FF89&index=17
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dLS6mR26Eo&feature=PlayList&p=7121C0874693FF89&index=18
>
> This year we plan to spend some new rituals recreated and translated into latin language.
> Vale !
> Ti. Claudius Drusus
>

Cato Piscino sal.

You wrote:

"Reconstitution of the physical body, if that is what you mean, is an
absurdity."

You mean *you* don't understand how it could be done. That doesn't mean it
cannot happen - as a matter of fact, I know that it *did* happen, whether you
(or science) are able to explain it or not. Thousands of men and women, much
more intelligent than you or I could possibly even hope to be, have believed
that it can - and did - happen.

Do you believe that Iuppiter hurls lightning and makes thunder, as the stories
about Him say that He does?

Vale,

Cato

Cn. Lentulus Quiritibus sal.

Quirites!

Let me reflect more on some of these proposed laws of Consul Memmius, but before I return to write more about what I was thinking, I must react very quickly to this one, that would take out the words Nation and sovereignty from our republic's constitution.

It is dangerous, as it would weaken the very reason of our existence, to bring the Roman nation to a new life. We gathered together in NR to restore the Roman nation and republic, and this proposed new preamble weakens our very self-identification.

Though it contains fine parts, this proposal should not pass over the comitia, and as it even endangers our very important symbolic statehood, it probably should directly be vetoed right now. But anyway, I hope that in THIS form, this proposal will be rejected, and if the consul really wants to modify the preamble of the constitution, another, new proposal will be made. I see the reason, I am aware of the good intention, and I agree that a more rationalistic and realistical wording would help us, so I would support, for example, instead of taking the sovereignty clause out of the constitution, the addition of "limited sovereignty". Thus we would not betray our spiritual nation Nova Roma, and still we could show a more modest, more realistical face.


More about the law proposals later!

CN LENTULUS






--- Mar 30/3/10, publiusalbucius <albucius_aoe@...> ha scritto:









 









Salvete Quirites,



Here is below the 5th Law proposal:



____________ _________ _________ _________ _



Item V – Lex Memmia de novo proemio constitutionis



[Constitution – New preamble]



The current preamble of our Constitution still contains a few elements whose most emblematic one is probably the affirmation that Nova Roma is "an independent and sovereign nation".



If this affirmation may have helped us to gather, ten years ago, our energies to build our community, we are well aware now that such assessment cannot, juridically, be received by both national and international laws: most of national laws, included the U.S. and Italy ones consider our community for what it is, an association, a non profit making corporation which lives and works in the frame of the national legal systems. If International Law may recognize Nova Roma as a community, we still miss the territorial element and, overall, the international recognition.



Drawing quietly the consequences of a legal situation will help us underlining the fact that our institutions are now skilled enough and our res publica both adult enough and conscious of its force, to state this situation in its fundamental act - our Constitution - and, at the same time, to reword it in a legal and more dynamic way, in order to open the second decenium of our common life. Such a renewed text, in addition, will fit with the intended adoption of Nova Roma inc. bylaws.



In view of the Constitution, specially its Preamble,



After due consultation of the Senate, the Comitia centuriata decides:



Article 1: The current Preamble of the Constitution is replaced by the following text:



" IN THE NAME OF THE SENATE AND PEOPLE OF ROME, the present Constitution is enacted as the keystone of Nova Roma and her institutions.



Nova Roma is, within the constraints of current international and national laws, the revival of ancient Rome.



This revival encompasses Republican Roman institutions and civilization from the foundation of the City in 753 BCE to the deposition of Romulus Augustulus in 1229 AUC (476 CE), and is inclusive, but not limited to, history, culture, languages, economy, institutions, beliefs, virtues and religions,  and especially the Roman religion.



It may also include the interactions of other civilizations and nations of that time period with Rome.



The Nova Roman res publica shall encourage the daily life of a community of persons interested in the knowledge of the civilization of ancient Rome, the conservation and the promotion of its cultural heritage, and the promotion, in our own time, of Republican Roman virtues. "



Article 2 : Every officer of Nova Roma is charged of the good execution of the present law, which shall be applicable from its ratification by Nova Roma senate on, and published in the Tabularium Nova Romae (Laws section).



------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -



APPENDIX: Current preamble of the Constitution



''We, the Senate and People of Nova Roma, as an independent and sovereign nation, herewith set forth this Constitution as the foundation and structure of our governing institutions and common society. We hereby declare our Nation to stand as a beacon for those who would recreate the best of ancient Rome. As a nation, Nova Roma shall be the temporal homeland and worldly focus for the Religio Romana. The primary function of Nova Roma shall be to promote the study and practice of pagan Roman civilization, defined as the period from the founding of the City of Rome in 753 BCE to the removal of the altar of Victory from the Senate in 394 CE and encompassing such fields as religion, culture, politics, art, literature, language, and philosophy.

As the spiritual heir to the ancient Roman Republic and Empire, Nova Roma shall endeavor to exist, in all manners practical and acceptable, as the modern restoration of the ancient Roman Republic. The culture, religion, and society of Nova Roma shall be patterned upon those of ancient Rome.''



You may find the previous versions via the page:

http://www.novaroma .org/nr/Category :Constitution_ %28Nova_Roma% 29



____________ _________ _________ _____



Valete omnes,



Albucius cos.

























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Most honourable Consul Albucius,  I do not oppose the more modest and realistical approaching the question of sovereingty. In fact, I propose that the present, current text of the preamble remain the same, but with adding the word "limited" to sovereignty. Indeed, we can add even the reference to macronational legal circumstances, too. But we can't declear ourselves completely un-sovereign: with our state, senate, nation and gods we are somehow sovereign already, in a very liited sense.






To: NovaRomaComitiaCent uriata@yahoogrou ps.com
CC: nova-roma@yahoogrou ps.com
From: cn_corn_lent@ yahoo.it
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 15:44:44 +0000
Subject: [NovaRomaComitiaCen turiata] Against the proposed changes in the Constitution' s preamble

 






Cn. Lentulus Quiritibus sal.

Quirites!

Let me reflect more on some of these proposed laws of Consul Memmius, but before I return to write more about what I was thinking, I must react very quickly to this one, that would take out the words Nation and sovereignty from our republic's constitution.

It is dangerous, as it would weaken the very reason of our existence, to bring the Roman nation to a new life. We gathered together in NR to restore the Roman nation and republic, and this proposed new preamble weakens our very self-identification .

Though it contains fine parts, this proposal should not pass over the comitia, and as it even endangers our very important symbolic statehood, it probably should directly be vetoed right now. But anyway, I hope that in THIS form, this proposal will be rejected, and if the consul really wants to modify the preamble of the constitution, another, new proposal will be made. I see the reason, I am aware of the good intention, and I agree that a more rationalistic and realistical wording would help us, so I would support, for example, instead of taking the sovereignty clause out of the constitution, the addition of "limited sovereignty" . Thus we would not betray our spiritual nation Nova Roma, and still we could show a more modest, more realistical face.


More about the law proposals later!

CN LENTULUS






--- Mar 30/3/10, publiusalbucius <albucius_aoe@ hotmail.com> ha scritto:





 

Salvete Quirites,

Here is below the 5th Law proposal:

____________ _________ _________ _________ _

Item V – Lex Memmia de novo proemio constitutionis

[Constitution – New preamble]

The current preamble of our Constitution still contains a few elements whose most emblematic one is probably the affirmation that Nova Roma is "an independent and sovereign nation".

If this affirmation may have helped us to gather, ten years ago, our energies to build our community, we are well aware now that such assessment cannot, juridically, be received by both national and international laws: most of national laws, included the U.S. and Italy ones consider our community for what it is, an association, a non profit making corporation which lives and works in the frame of the national legal systems. If International Law may recognize Nova Roma as a community, we still miss the territorial element and, overall, the international recognition.

Drawing quietly the consequences of a legal situation will help us underlining the fact that our institutions are now skilled enough and our res publica both adult enough and conscious of its force, to state this situation in its fundamental act - our Constitution - and, at the same time, to reword it in a legal and more dynamic way, in order to open the second decenium of our common life. Such a renewed text, in addition, will fit with the intended adoption of Nova Roma inc. bylaws.

In view of the Constitution, specially its Preamble,

After due consultation of the Senate, the Comitia centuriata decides:

Article 1: The current Preamble of the Constitution is replaced by the following text:

" IN THE NAME OF THE SENATE AND PEOPLE OF ROME, the present Constitution is enacted as the keystone of Nova Roma and her institutions.

Nova Roma is, within the constraints of current international and national laws, the revival of ancient Rome.

This revival encompasses Republican Roman institutions and civilization from the foundation of the City in 753 BCE to the deposition of Romulus Augustulus in 1229 AUC (476 CE), and is inclusive, but not limited to, history, culture, languages, economy, institutions, beliefs, virtues and religions,  and especially the Roman religion.

It may also include the interactions of other civilizations and nations of that time period with Rome.

The Nova Roman res publica shall encourage the daily life of a community of persons interested in the knowledge of the civilization of ancient Rome, the conservation and the promotion of its cultural heritage, and the promotion, in our own time, of Republican Roman virtues. "

Article 2 : Every officer of Nova Roma is charged of the good execution of the present law, which shall be applicable from its ratification by Nova Roma senate on, and published in the Tabularium Nova Romae (Laws section).

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

APPENDIX: Current preamble of the Constitution

''We, the Senate and People of Nova Roma, as an independent and sovereign nation, herewith set forth this Constitution as the foundation and structure of our governing institutions and common society. We hereby declare our Nation to stand as a beacon for those who would recreate the best of ancient Rome. As a nation, Nova Roma shall be the temporal homeland and worldly focus for the Religio Romana. The primary function of Nova Roma shall be to promote the study and practice of pagan Roman civilization, defined as the period from the founding of the City of Rome in 753 BCE to the removal of the altar of Victory from the Senate in 394 CE and encompassing such fields as religion, culture, politics, art, literature, language, and philosophy.
As the spiritual heir to the ancient Roman Republic and Empire, Nova Roma shall endeavor to exist, in all manners practical and acceptable, as the modern restoration of the ancient Roman Republic. The culture, religion, and society of Nova Roma shall be patterned upon those of ancient Rome.''

You may find the previous versions via the page:
http://www.novaroma .org/nr/Category :Constitution_ %28Nova_Roma% 29

____________ _________ _________ _____

Valete omnes,

Albucius cos.







Acheter en ligne en toute sécurité ? Internet Explorer 8 vous protège gratuitement !









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Maior,

What exactly is the purpose of spending your Sundays learning myths and stories that you believed were nothing more than 'an absurd notion?' That seems less cementing national identity and more amusement at the expense of your gullible ancestors. You might as well have sat around reading Asimov if all you wanted was good Jewish fiction. If you choose to be as skeptical as you seem, why bother going at all? If Jewish enslavement by Egyptians is far-fetched, how much more so an invisible entity who lives in the sky that you can't see but controls everything? I'm assuming that the Rabbis bought the second part, unless this was some sort of Atheist Reform Sunday School.

This is conflict for the point of conflict. Of course religions are myths; that's the whole point! It's the stories and rituals that make sense of the world we live in. Historically the enslavement may never have happened, but I think it was clear that Cato's intent was to acknowledge the Passover that many Jews still celebrate today and wish them well. To jump on Cato's well-wishing by saying that the whole event is imagined is in bad taste. Other than a sense of decency and the laws of NR I could make the same claims against any religion, including the Religio. It doesn't achieve anything, but it could be done. You continuously antagonize those who mention anything Judeo-Christian, holding those religions to a unrealistic standards higher than that of your own, and now accuse others of intolerance for giving well-wishes. Then, you support your argument that there is no supportable proof of Passover by telling an unsupported anecdote. This is more irony than liver and onions! Ba-Dum Cha!

Vale,

Regulus


From: rory12001
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 5:14 AM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Pesach Tov!



Ah I feel the tolerance....
even in Reform Sunday School none of the children nor the teachers nor the Rabbis would entertain such an absurd notion. We all knew that the Tanakh contained myths, stories, that cemented our national identity. Jewish people are extremely proud of our heritage & cultivate our intellect.

and my entire 4th grade Sunday school class would laugh at your literalism;-)
vale
Maior

>
> Cato Maiori sal.
>
> Do you not even have the common decency to allow the expression of a wish for fellow citizens who celebrate this event to be made without making a snide comment? Perhaps you'd like to share some of the "facts" that "back...up" the stories of the Roman gods?
>
> The Israelites weren't "skilled laborers"; they were slaves:
>
> "So they put slave masters over them to oppress them with forced labor, and they built Pithom and Rameses as store cities for Pharaoh...The Israelites groaned in their slavery and cried out, and their cry for help because of their slavery went up to God...The LORD said, 'I have indeed seen the misery of My people in Egypt. I have heard them crying out because of their slave drivers, and I am concerned about their suffering.'" - Exodus 1:11, 2:23, 3:7
>
> "The master might employ a slave in many different manners, such as in domestic service as the guardian of children, cooks, brewers or maids. They might be used as gardeners or field hands or in the stable. The master might also require the slave to learn a trade to improve his property (the slave)...Perhaps the worst treatment that a slave could be assigned was to work the quarries and mines." - The Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt, Donald B. Redford, Ed. (2001, The American University in Cairo Press)
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> >
> > Maior quiritibus spd;
> > Judaean Passover is a nation-building myth, which has kept Jews together for Millenia.
> > The stories in the Hebrew Scriptures have no facts to back them up. So they are myths but as we can see myths are tremendously powerful. And the Egyptians paid their skilled labourers;-)
>
> > vale
> > Maior
> >
> >
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Maior Piscino spd;
Exactly.
my grandfather's favorite book was Moses and Monotheism, where Freud analyses the myth and posits that Moses was really the pharoah Akhenaten. He fled Austro-Hungry around 1900 and never attended university; he cultivated his intellect by reading and friendships with scholars and that is our great national heritage.

The fundamentalist attitude is really foreign to educated Judaism, except for the 18th century Hasids & they were spurned by the mainstream & still are for being credulous peasants.

vale
Maior

>
> M. Moravius M. Hortensiae s. p. d.
>
> I have always wondered why those texts neglected to mention that Egypt ruled Judea and Israel after Moses supposedly left the pharoah's domain, and also fail to mention the later contest between the Egyptians and Hittites to the north of 'the promised land.' That is, if one were to mistake such texts as history rather than myth.
>
> Ah, but the myth of Moses was told centuries before he was supposedly born from a river, as his Egyptian name 'meses' means; the very same myth was told of Sargon the Great who even had his story carved on a mountainside. The same myth told of Sargon and the mythical Moses is like that told of Romulus and Remus being cast in a river, discovered by a shepherd and raised in squalid conditions, only to rise to kinghood due to their natural and noble heritage. Actually it was a myth common in the region. Even that of Horus, hidden by Isis in the Sea of Reeds, later to become Pharoah of the Two Lands, is a related myth. But then that is the myth of Tammuz, too, or Adonis if you prefer, abandoned in a river, discovered and raised by shepherds. The myth is celebrated, as with the March celebration for Attys, with a procession of people carrying reeds to represent His discovery alongside the river's edge.
>
> First people take myth as literal and then confuse it as history and wrap it all up as faith. Faith: the suspencion of disbelief, belief in the unbelievable.
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> >
> > Maior quiritibus spd;
> > Judaean Passover is a nation-building myth, which has kept Jews together for Millenia.
> > The stories in the Hebrew Scriptures have no facts to back them up. So they are myths but as we can see myths are tremendously powerful. And the Egyptians paid their skilled labourers;-)
> >
> > Here is a repost of a great link to an anthropology blog
> > http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/09/ashg-2009-abstracts.html
> > showing that European Jews are genetically closest to Tuscan Italians. The destruction of the Temple and the subsequent diaspora led to intermarriage, before that was forbidden by Constantine & later christian emperors.
> > vale
> > Maior
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Timothy or Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Salve,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Hey! Who are going build our Pyramids now!"
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > That would be the Goa'uld!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Vale
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Paulinus
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > > From: QFabiusMaxmi@
> > > Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 11:19:50 -0400
> > > Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Pesach Tov!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > In a message dated 3/30/2010 6:13:45 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> > > catoinnyc@ writes:
> > >
> > > Today is the first day of the great commemoration of the rescue of Israel
> > > out of their slavery in Egypt, called "Pesach" in Hebrew or "Passover" in
> > > English. I wish a very blessed and happy Passover to all our Jewish
> > > citizens!
> > >
> > > Hey! Who are going build our Pyramids now!
> > >
> > > Pharaoh
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "fauxrari" <drivergirl@...> wrote:

>
> Salve!
>
> That was a great wedding. My fiance and I did a similar wedding ceremony for a California event called Old Fort McArthur Days last year. I need to post the photos that were taken of the event. I'm making a website for our wedding and I will include them there and send out a link. We are getting married on July 30, the special day of Bona Fortuna and we are having a traditional Roman wedding.
>
> What other ceremonies were you thinking of performing? I have done other religious ceremonies. Not in Latin. Not yet. Let me know- I'm very interested in learning more so I can do more things when my reenactment group does events.
>
> Gratias,
>
> L. Antonia Auriga
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "tiberius.claudius" <tiberius.claudius@> wrote:
> >
> > Salvete , quritas ! Salve , Roma !
> >
> > Last year in Bulgaria I and my friends have reconstructed wedding ceremony. What do you think of this reconstruction?
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkfe3npg_Nc&feature=PlayList&p=7121C0874693FF89&index=15
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpDbd30FCBU&feature=PlayList&p=7121C0874693FF89&index=16
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZ22SgKNErs&feature=PlayList&p=7121C0874693FF89&index=17
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dLS6mR26Eo&feature=PlayList&p=7121C0874693FF89&index=18
> >
> > This year we plan to spend some new rituals recreated and translated into latin language.
> > Vale !
> > Ti. Claudius Drusus
> >
>

Salve , L. Antonia Auriga !

Perfectly! I congratulate you! If you need council about details of the Roman wedding (taste of bread, consecration of wedding rings), ask from me, I will help you.
My first ceremony was to god Janus "consecration of gate of the Roman fortress".If you wish I can show it to you.
In the beginning of July we will do clarification ritual in Bulgaria, where preliminary ceremonies (praefatio) and ritual immolatio will be shown for the first time. All rituals will be in Latin language. There will be a ceremony of consecration of a city and one Greek ritual.

Optime tibi eveniant omnia!
Ti Claudius Drusus

Salvete Omnes,

I paste here excerpts from a reflection about Easter originally posted by a
Greek woman on the Couchsurfing "Greece" forum. Everybody will see the
parallelism with the discussion taking place here.
It's interesting to see that in that forum the topic caused no heated
discussions.

You can read the original post by clicking on the link at the end.

Optime valete,
Livia

(...)
"Greeks connect this special period which comes before Pascha with many
customs and traditions. They prepare special sweet and flavorful breads
named "tsourekia" or cookies named "koulouria". On the day of Jesus death
they dye eggs in red color, to refer to the blood of Jesus. Egg symbolises
new life since ancient times.
The same idea about resurrection lives within ancient greek traditions about
the resurrection of Dionysus, God of joy, wine, and nature rebirth.

Some of the greek customs of Easter time:
(....)
one of the most amazing aspects of these customs is the connection of them
with many ancient rituals that have to do with Ancient Greek Mysteries like
the ones called "Orphika", "Korivantika" etc...the communion/sharing of
divine "flesh" and "blood" (as it is stil represented in christian rituals),
was also a part of many ancient rituals that had to do with the idea of
deity descending on humans filling up their souls...

Many researchers think that the period of christian Easter time refers to
the ancient festival called "Adonia", connected with the death of Adonis, a
young man of great beauty, the most beloved one of Godess Aphrodite, who was
killed while hunting. To represent Aphrodite's lamentation over Adonis dead
body, women used to cry over an idol of Adonis, covered with flowers. After
some days they would celebrate with many big meals, dances and singings
Adonis' "evresis" (=finding), his resurrection and nature's rebirth."

post:
http://www.couchsurfing.org/group_read.html?gid=202&post=5355964#gpid5355964

----- Original Message -----
From: "Cato" <catoinnyc@...>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 5:22 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Redemption and Resurrection [defixiones and dates]


Catp Piscino sal.

You wrote:

"Reconstitution of the physical body, if that is what you mean, is an
absurdity."

You mean *you* don't understand how it could be done. That doesn't mean it
cannot happen - as a matter of fact, I know that it *did* happen, whether
you (or science) are able to explain it or not. Thousands of men and women,
much more intelligent than you or I could possibly even hope to be, have
believed that it can - and did - happen.

Do you believe that Iuppiter hurls lightning and makes thunder, as the
stories about Him say that He does?

Vale,

Cato

I deleted that post for a reason, Annae Regule. Do read my post to Piscinus who is familiar with Jewish people and their culture. And yes I have had atheist rabbis too. All Rabbis emphasize the individual and his or her moral duty as the highest virtue. It's all about ethics.

It would be more helpful if you took a more Roman Varronian view.

I think this is the center of the problem - cultural viewpoint. A Roman would find the particulars of my family cultus bizarre (as I do) but respect its antiquity, ritual for the sake of Roman pietas and fides to one's ancestors. That's just how I see it, my family sees it and probably a great majority of European and Euro-American Jewish people.

vale
Maior

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "T. Annaeus Regulus" <t.annaevsregvlvs@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Maior,
>
> What exactly is the purpose of spending your Sundays learning myths and stories that you believed were nothing more than 'an absurd notion?' That seems less cementing national identity and more amusement at the expense of your gullible ancestors. You might as well have sat around reading Asimov if all you wanted was good Jewish fiction. If you choose to be as skeptical as you seem, why bother going at all? If Jewish enslavement by Egyptians is far-fetched, how much more so an invisible entity who lives in the sky that you can't see but controls everything? I'm assuming that the Rabbis bought the second part, unless this was some sort of Atheist Reform Sunday School.
>
> This is conflict for the point of conflict. Of course religions are myths; that's the whole point! It's the stories and rituals that make sense of the world we live in. Historically the enslavement may never have happened, but I think it was clear that Cato's intent was to acknowledge the Passover that many Jews still celebrate today and wish them well. To jump on Cato's well-wishing by saying that the whole event is imagined is in bad taste. Other than a sense of decency and the laws of NR I could make the same claims against any religion, including the Religio. It doesn't achieve anything, but it could be done. You continuously antagonize those who mention anything Judeo-Christian, holding those religions to a unrealistic standards higher than that of your own, and now accuse others of intolerance for giving well-wishes. Then, you support your argument that there is no supportable proof of Passover by telling an unsupported anecdote. This is more irony than liver and onions! Ba-Dum Cha!
>
> Vale,
>
> Regulus
>
>
> From: rory12001
> Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 5:14 AM
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Pesach Tov!
>
>
>
> Ah I feel the tolerance....
> even in Reform Sunday School none of the children nor the teachers nor the Rabbis would entertain such an absurd notion. We all knew that the Tanakh contained myths, stories, that cemented our national identity. Jewish people are extremely proud of our heritage & cultivate our intellect.
>
> and my entire 4th grade Sunday school class would laugh at your literalism;-)
> vale
> Maior
>
> >
> > Cato Maiori sal.
> >
> > Do you not even have the common decency to allow the expression of a wish for fellow citizens who celebrate this event to be made without making a snide comment? Perhaps you'd like to share some of the "facts" that "back...up" the stories of the Roman gods?
> >
> > The Israelites weren't "skilled laborers"; they were slaves:
> >
> > "So they put slave masters over them to oppress them with forced labor, and they built Pithom and Rameses as store cities for Pharaoh...The Israelites groaned in their slavery and cried out, and their cry for help because of their slavery went up to God...The LORD said, 'I have indeed seen the misery of My people in Egypt. I have heard them crying out because of their slave drivers, and I am concerned about their suffering.'" - Exodus 1:11, 2:23, 3:7
> >
> > "The master might employ a slave in many different manners, such as in domestic service as the guardian of children, cooks, brewers or maids. They might be used as gardeners or field hands or in the stable. The master might also require the slave to learn a trade to improve his property (the slave)...Perhaps the worst treatment that a slave could be assigned was to work the quarries and mines." - The Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt, Donald B. Redford, Ed. (2001, The American University in Cairo Press)
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Cato
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Maior quiritibus spd;
> > > Judaean Passover is a nation-building myth, which has kept Jews together for Millenia.
> > > The stories in the Hebrew Scriptures have no facts to back them up. So they are myths but as we can see myths are tremendously powerful. And the Egyptians paid their skilled labourers;-)
> >
> > > vale
> > > Maior
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Salvete omnibus!
Like everybody knows /I guess/ this weekend is an Orthodox Easter.
So Happy Easter to people with Orthodox Christian denomination:)

Salve, Germanicus! I've a great memories from this Conferratio /this was mщ first civil ritual/. This year we do it again and more preciously.
Vale!

L. Iulia Aquila A. Tulliae Scholasticae L. Liviae Plautae amicae et amici omnnibusque S.P.D.

Some of you already know that my grandson Marcus Iulius Aquila, who turned 18 the end of January, passed his exam and is now a full citizen of the Nova Roma!

He has chosen some photos to post, they include last year's prom photo in a black tux, photos in a toga virilis and his favorite - and the reason for this post - a red tunica and toga - which is his first choice to post in the Album Civium.

I am asking the forum for feedback regarding this to help with this decision.
I have seen red tunica on both females and males (in various media), also on Sacerdotes - not that I am certain one way or another of their authenticity.
And recently Drusus posted a video of a Conferratio (which I have seen before) where Red garments are worn: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/74692
Thank you in advance for any feedback~

Curate ut valeatis optime,

Julia

Salve, et salvete,

These are wonderful videos of last year's conferratio!

Tibi gratulor Antonia!

Vale, et valete,

Julia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "tiberius.claudius" <tiberius.claudius@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete , quritas ! Salve , Roma !
>
> Last year in Bulgaria I and my friends have reconstructed wedding ceremony. What do you think of this reconstruction?
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkfe3npg_Nc&feature=PlayList&p=7121C0874693FF89&index=15
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpDbd30FCBU&feature=PlayList&p=7121C0874693FF89&index=16
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZ22SgKNErs&feature=PlayList&p=7121C0874693FF89&index=17
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dLS6mR26Eo&feature=PlayList&p=7121C0874693FF89&index=18
>
> This year we plan to spend some new rituals recreated and translated into latin language.
> Vale !
> Ti. Claudius Drusus
>

Germanice, Celse; bene fecit! really wonderful, reconstruction is an ongoing process, I really salute and admire your efforts - hehe,now we need a real conferration.
di vobis ament ; may the gods love you
Maior

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "luciaiuliaaquila" <dis_pensible@...> wrote:
>
> Salve, et salvete,
>
> These are wonderful videos of last year's conferratio!
>
> Tibi gratulor Antonia!
>
> Vale, et valete,
>
> Julia
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "tiberius.claudius" <tiberius.claudius@> wrote:
> >
> > Salvete , quritas ! Salve , Roma !
> >
> > Last year in Bulgaria I and my friends have reconstructed wedding ceremony. What do you think of this reconstruction?
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkfe3npg_Nc&feature=PlayList&p=7121C0874693FF89&index=15
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpDbd30FCBU&feature=PlayList&p=7121C0874693FF89&index=16
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZ22SgKNErs&feature=PlayList&p=7121C0874693FF89&index=17
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dLS6mR26Eo&feature=PlayList&p=7121C0874693FF89&index=18
> >
> > This year we plan to spend some new rituals recreated and translated into latin language.
> > Vale !
> > Ti. Claudius Drusus
> >
>

Caeca Juliae Aquilae omnibusque sal,

Amica, please congratulate your son from me, and I heartily welcome him into our Res Publica! Can't comment on red togas ...I don't know anywhere near enough, although I do know that color, in clothing played a very important part in Roman culture, and that specific colors, or stripes on togas, for example, denoted something very specific ...so he might want to do some research, which, come to think on it, sounds a lot like ...fun!

Vale et valete quam optime,
C. Maria Caeca

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[SNIP]

> He has chosen some photos to post, they include last year's prom photo in a black tux, photos in a toga virilis and his favorite - and the reason for this post - a red tunica and toga - which is his first choice to post in the Album Civium.
>
> I am asking the forum for feedback regarding this to help with this decision.
> I have seen red tunica on both females and males (in various media), also on Sacerdotes - not that I am certain one way or another of their authenticity.
> And recently Drusus posted a video of a Conferratio (which I have seen before) where Red garments are worn: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/74692
> Thank you in advance for any feedback~
>
> Curate ut valeatis optime,
>
> Julia

Salve, Iulia. I may be terribly wrong about this (and if I am, I surely expect someone to correct me!), but, as far as I recall, red tunicæ are typically worn by soldiers and people in the military. Indeed, the only red tunica sold by the web shop Armillum (which right now seems to be offline) is a military model. I'm not sure whether or not it's worn by women, I've never seen on a woman. And I've never seen a red toga either. I'm pretty sure your son looks awfully good in an all-white toga virilis. Why would he want to look like a soldier? Does he feel like one?

Optime vale,
Placidus

Maior Juliae Caecae spd;
supposely in the Republic female prostitutes wore the red toga. I never went into the topic, as it held no interest for me. So I cant say if it is so. Lentulus is the one who will know about this for men, for sure Julia. He is the toga-master;-)
How wonderful to see your grandson here, euge, euge for generations of Nova Romans, how wonderful!
di nobis favent!
Maior
-

>
> Caeca Juliae Aquilae omnibusque sal,
>
> Amica, please congratulate your son from me, and I heartily welcome him into our Res Publica! Can't comment on red togas ...I don't know anywhere near enough, although I do know that color, in clothing played a very important part in Roman culture, and that specific colors, or stripes on togas, for example, denoted something very specific ...so he might want to do some research, which, come to think on it, sounds a lot like ...fun!
>
> Vale et valete quam optime,
> C. Maria Caeca
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

L. Livia Plauta L. Iuliae Aquilae S.P.D.

According to all my research any colour is acceptable for tunics, including
red as long as it's not purpura. Red obtained from other dyes like cynaber,
kermes, madder is acceptable. Just the one obtained from the little murex is
not, or anything resembling that hue.

This for the tunics. Togas, however, were always white, except for togae
pullae, which were dark brown and used only in mourning.

A red toga was, ehm, the prerogative of (female) prostitutes in the
republican period, so it's not a good idea for your grandson to wear one.

But while a toga was formal wear, and very codified, a pallium, the informal
overgarment most often worn by men, could be any colour (again, with the
exception of purple).

I'm always suspicious of what people call "toga". If your grandson's garment
is a rectangular piece of cloth, shorter than 5 metres, and it doesn't have
rounded corners, then it's safe to call it a pallium, and it has nothing to
do with a toga.

In that case your young grandson would be wearing a fashionable "synthesis"
a combination of tunica and pallium of the same colour, which was usually
worn at banquets.

The draping is also relevant: for a pallium disregard all the instructions
on our wiki on how to drape a toga. A pallium can be draped very easily: in
this photo
http://floralia2009.ap-claudia-alba.fotoalbum.hu/viewpicture/pictureid/6819424
you can see A. Apollonius Cordus wearing a Pallium. Actually he didn't have
much practice: the fabric end you can see down at his elbow should have
draped evenly from his left shoulder down to the left arm. He could also
have worn it over his right arm too, if it hadn't been so hot that day.

Optime vale,
Livia

----- Original Message -----
From: "luciaiuliaaquila" <dis_pensible@...>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 10:37 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] The Color Red: Tunica and Toga


L. Iulia Aquila A. Tulliae Scholasticae L. Liviae Plautae amicae et amici
omnnibusque S.P.D.

Some of you already know that my grandson Marcus Iulius Aquila, who turned
18 the end of January, passed his exam and is now a full citizen of the Nova
Roma!

He has chosen some photos to post, they include last year's prom photo in a
black tux, photos in a toga virilis and his favorite - and the reason for
this post - a red tunica and toga - which is his first choice to post in the
Album Civium.

I am asking the forum for feedback regarding this to help with this
decision.
I have seen red tunica on both females and males (in various media), also on
Sacerdotes - not that I am certain one way or another of their authenticity.
And recently Drusus posted a video of a Conferratio (which I have seen
before) where Red garments are worn:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/74692
Thank you in advance for any feedback~

Curate ut valeatis optime,

Julia

Reminder from:		Nova-Roma Yahoo! Group
Title:		Kalends
Date:		Thursday April 1, 2010
Time:		All Day
Repeats:		This event repeats every month.
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In a message dated 3/31/2010 1:38:19 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
dis_pensible@... writes:

I am asking the forum for feedback regarding this to help with this
decision.
I have seen red tunica on both females and males (in various media), also
on Sacerdotes - not that I am certain one way or another of their
authenticity.




Colors of Tunics depended how rich you were in the Republic and early
Principate.

Red in this case likely would be for banquets, orgies and feast days. Red
was said to be the color of Mars, but for every comment I read that says
so, I have found one that says not.

The toga was proof of Roman citizenship. It was white, dusted by
pipeclay. A colored toga would be worn by a prostitute, the opinion that a Flamen
wore color is made by inference and not direct comment. All the surviving
frescos and statues exposed to spectrography, has revealed that the color
was white, probably a dingy gray. Animal urine was used to bleach wool,
and so there would be likely there was a slight yellow cast. My own togas
are cream colored with the obligatory purple (reddish brown) stripes.

Soldiers wore red by the late Empire, yet the Praetorians at the Bridge in
312 AD wore still wore white. (Maybe because of tradition.)

The Italian legionaries wore white, likely to show they were Roman
citizens. Recovered tunicas from Egypt dated to 80 BC showed this to be true.
Tacitus also confirms this while describing an Ovation.
We have no real idea what the Socii wore. My educated guess is they
followed the Hellenic practice of colored cloth material in strips sown as
edging for sleeves and tunic hems.

I hope this helps

Q. Fabius Maximus

Sent from my Blackberry




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

M. Hortensiaa L.Liviae spd;
eh apologies Livia amica, I thought you were over at couch-surfing forum. You know your clothing & dyes and the entire business.

So nowplease help me with your expertise!. I have a pallium which I hate, but given my size 152 centimeters I don't know how much cloth I need for a toga...also can you give me a clue about the range of dark brown for the toga pulla as Pythagoreans wore one in the Republic & I've always wanted to wear one.
optime vale
Maior

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Livia Plauta" <livia.plauta@...> wrote:
>
> L. Livia Plauta L. Iuliae Aquilae S.P.D.
>
> According to all my research any colour is acceptable for tunics, including
> red as long as it's not purpura. Red obtained from other dyes like cynaber,
> kermes, madder is acceptable. Just the one obtained from the little murex is
> not, or anything resembling that hue.
>
> This for the tunics. Togas, however, were always white, except for togae
> pullae, which were dark brown and used only in mourning.
>
> A red toga was, ehm, the prerogative of (female) prostitutes in the
> republican period, so it's not a good idea for your grandson to wear one.
>
> But while a toga was formal wear, and very codified, a pallium, the informal
> overgarment most often worn by men, could be any colour (again, with the
> exception of purple).
>
> I'm always suspicious of what people call "toga". If your grandson's garment
> is a rectangular piece of cloth, shorter than 5 metres, and it doesn't have
> rounded corners, then it's safe to call it a pallium, and it has nothing to
> do with a toga.
>
> In that case your young grandson would be wearing a fashionable "synthesis"
> a combination of tunica and pallium of the same colour, which was usually
> worn at banquets.
>
> The draping is also relevant: for a pallium disregard all the instructions
> on our wiki on how to drape a toga. A pallium can be draped very easily: in
> this photo
> http://floralia2009.ap-claudia-alba.fotoalbum.hu/viewpicture/pictureid/6819424
> you can see A. Apollonius Cordus wearing a Pallium. Actually he didn't have
> much practice: the fabric end you can see down at his elbow should have
> draped evenly from his left shoulder down to the left arm. He could also
> have worn it over his right arm too, if it hadn't been so hot that day.
>
> Optime vale,
> Livia
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "luciaiuliaaquila" <dis_pensible@>
> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 10:37 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] The Color Red: Tunica and Toga
>
>
> L. Iulia Aquila A. Tulliae Scholasticae L. Liviae Plautae amicae et amici
> omnnibusque S.P.D.
>
> Some of you already know that my grandson Marcus Iulius Aquila, who turned
> 18 the end of January, passed his exam and is now a full citizen of the Nova
> Roma!
>
> He has chosen some photos to post, they include last year's prom photo in a
> black tux, photos in a toga virilis and his favorite - and the reason for
> this post - a red tunica and toga - which is his first choice to post in the
> Album Civium.
>
> I am asking the forum for feedback regarding this to help with this
> decision.
> I have seen red tunica on both females and males (in various media), also on
> Sacerdotes - not that I am certain one way or another of their authenticity.
> And recently Drusus posted a video of a Conferratio (which I have seen
> before) where Red garments are worn:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/74692
> Thank you in advance for any feedback~
>
> Curate ut valeatis optime,
>
> Julia
>

Salvete Quirites,

Among the laws currently being discussed in the Comitia Centuriata is a
proposed change to the Constitution of Nova Roma, the Lex Memmia de novo
proemio constitutionis.

In its seemingly simple words lurks a viper. This proposal is nothing
less than the destruction of the very nature of Nova Roma as a sovereign
entity. Many people over the years have expressed displeasure at this
essential nature of the Republic, but never before has an attack on the
proposition been so bold, and so dangerous.

The Consul proposes that we trade our status as a sovereign nation for
some nebulous status as a "revival of the Roman Republic". We would no
longer be a nation, we would simply be a Rome fan-club. But that,
apparently, is what he and his supporters want.

Why? What possible reason does the Consul give for this upheaval (one so
radical I hesitate to use the term "change" as not conveying
sufficiently the enormity of the proposal)? It is quite clear he finds
this foundational aspect of Nova Roma to be an embarrassment. He wants
to attract some hypothetical class of "very interesting people that,
when they currently see our documents, may think that we are either a
bit crazy, excessive or sectarian people, and do not join us for this
kind of formal unuseful (sic) details."

Indeed, that has been at the very center of the program of a certain
segment of our society, which has achieved dominance in recent years.
They are at once embarrassed and repelled at the notion that Nova Roma
might claim a status as a sovereign nation. I am continually baffled by
such sentiments. The situation has always been laid out for all to see,
clear as glass, plain as paper. Nova Roma claims to be a sovereign
nation. Seeing that, why do they not just move on? What seditious force
compels them to join us, knowing that we embrace that which they
despise? What they are looking for is a Rome fan-club, or a reenactment
society, or a role-playing game, or something. Why the need to join Nova
Roma and then act on the compulsion to change its very nature to suit
their own predilections? Why don't they just go ahead and join one? Or
create one? It would make life all the easier for those of us who
actively embrace that aspect of Nova Roma's fundamental nature.

One must always remember that the decision that Marcus Cassius Julianus
and I took to proclaim the sovereign nature of Nova Roma was not done
lightly, nor on a whim, nor just for ego. It was done because it was
absolutely necessary-- a fundamental principal-- of the idea that Nova
Roma is "the temporal homeland and worldly focus for the Religio Romana".

Which, I note, is a phrase and sentiment also missing from the new
proposed Constitution.

Quite simply, the fundamental thesis of Nova Roma's very existence is
that, in order for the Religio Publica to be practiced in any sort of
meaningful way, it must be a sovereign nation. Without that, the very
notion of a Religio Publica loses all context, and thus all meaning.
This, of course, means little to those who do not follow the Religio, or
to those for whom it is some sort of exercise in role-playing or
reenacting or a power-trip, rather than a serious spiritual path. Anyone
can go through the motions of a ritual; Nova Roma is founded on the
belief that They will pay attention only to those rites performed on
behalf of, and thus bestow their Their favor to, a nation. A nation that
claims its right to stand among other nations as an equal. I tell you
now, if this measure is passed, the Gods will turn their backs upon Nova
Roma.

I do realize that many don't agree with that sentiment. Fine. That is
their right. They can toddle off and join some other group whose
composition is more to their liking. But leave the fundamental
principles upon which our Republic was founded alone! You knew what Nova
Roma was coming in. You do not have the right to change that, though you
may have the power.

This law is a dagger held at the very throat of Nova Roma itself. If
passed, it will obliterate the very reason for the foundation of Nova Roma.

I urge you, my fellow citizens; vote against this evil law.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus
Pater Patriae

--- Maior Lentulo spd;
I agree with you 1,000% amice, Nova Roma is a spiritual home. It makes it unique and not just another Roman org, where people are back to Atilla and Rory on the weekdays.
vale
Maior

, so I would support, for example, instead of taking the sovereignty clause out of the constitution, the addition of "limited sovereignty". Thus we would not betray our spiritual nation Nova Roma, and still we could show a more modest, more realistical face.

>
>
> More about the law proposals later!
>
> CN LENTULUS
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- Mar 30/3/10, publiusalbucius <albucius_aoe@...> ha scritto:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Salvete Quirites,
>
>
>
> Here is below the 5th Law proposal:
>
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _
>
>
>
> Item V â€" Lex Memmia de novo proemio constitutionis
>
>
>
> [Constitution â€" New preamble]
>
>
>
> The current preamble of our Constitution still contains a few elements whose most emblematic one is probably the affirmation that Nova Roma is "an independent and sovereign nation".
>
>
>
> If this affirmation may have helped us to gather, ten years ago, our energies to build our community, we are well aware now that such assessment cannot, juridically, be received by both national and international laws: most of national laws, included the U.S. and Italy ones consider our community for what it is, an association, a non profit making corporation which lives and works in the frame of the national legal systems. If International Law may recognize Nova Roma as a community, we still miss the territorial element and, overall, the international recognition.
>
>
>
> Drawing quietly the consequences of a legal situation will help us underlining the fact that our institutions are now skilled enough and our res publica both adult enough and conscious of its force, to state this situation in its fundamental act - our Constitution - and, at the same time, to reword it in a legal and more dynamic way, in order to open the second decenium of our common life. Such a renewed text, in addition, will fit with the intended adoption of Nova Roma inc. bylaws.
>
>
>
> In view of the Constitution, specially its Preamble,
>
>
>
> After due consultation of the Senate, the Comitia centuriata decides:
>
>
>
> Article 1: The current Preamble of the Constitution is replaced by the following text:
>
>
>
> " IN THE NAME OF THE SENATE AND PEOPLE OF ROME, the present Constitution is enacted as the keystone of Nova Roma and her institutions.
>
>
>
> Nova Roma is, within the constraints of current international and national laws, the revival of ancient Rome.
>
>
>
> This revival encompasses Republican Roman institutions and civilization from the foundation of the City in 753 BCE to the deposition of Romulus Augustulus in 1229 AUC (476 CE), and is inclusive, but not limited to, history, culture, languages, economy, institutions, beliefs, virtues and religions,  and especially the Roman religion.
>
>
>
> It may also include the interactions of other civilizations and nations of that time period with Rome.
>
>
>
> The Nova Roman res publica shall encourage the daily life of a community of persons interested in the knowledge of the civilization of ancient Rome, the conservation and the promotion of its cultural heritage, and the promotion, in our own time, of Republican Roman virtues. "
>
>
>
> Article 2 : Every officer of Nova Roma is charged of the good execution of the present law, which shall be applicable from its ratification by Nova Roma senate on, and published in the Tabularium Nova Romae (Laws section).
>
>
>
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
>
>
>
> APPENDIX: Current preamble of the Constitution
>
>
>
> ''We, the Senate and People of Nova Roma, as an independent and sovereign nation, herewith set forth this Constitution as the foundation and structure of our governing institutions and common society. We hereby declare our Nation to stand as a beacon for those who would recreate the best of ancient Rome. As a nation, Nova Roma shall be the temporal homeland and worldly focus for the Religio Romana. The primary function of Nova Roma shall be to promote the study and practice of pagan Roman civilization, defined as the period from the founding of the City of Rome in 753 BCE to the removal of the altar of Victory from the Senate in 394 CE and encompassing such fields as religion, culture, politics, art, literature, language, and philosophy.
>
> As the spiritual heir to the ancient Roman Republic and Empire, Nova Roma shall endeavor to exist, in all manners practical and acceptable, as the modern restoration of the ancient Roman Republic. The culture, religion, and society of Nova Roma shall be patterned upon those of ancient Rome.''
>
>
>
> You may find the previous versions via the page:
>
> http://www.novaroma .org/nr/Category :Constitution_ %28Nova_Roma% 29
>
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ _____
>
>
>
> Valete omnes,
>
>
>
> Albucius cos.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

In a message dated 3/31/2010 3:26:37 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
vedius@... writes:

In its seemingly simple words lurks a viper. This proposal is nothing
less than the destruction of the very nature of Nova Roma as a sovereign
entity. Many people over the years have expressed displeasure at this
essential nature of the Republic, but never before has an attack on the
proposition been so bold, and so dangerous.

The Consul proposes that we trade our status as a sovereign nation for
some nebulous status as a "revival of the Roman Republic". We would no
longer be a nation, we would simply be a Rome fan-club. But that,
apparently, is what he and his supporters want.



Bravo Vedius!

I love Caesar like a brother, but I disagree with him that our problems
would be less if the dysfunctional delusional people here would move on. The
Sovereignty Clause did not attract the wing-nuts, an on-line organization
did. I have seen every on-line organization have the same problems. There
is always some know it all that thinks his way is better, and he coalesces
a gathering around him that agrees. Eventually, he does a power play, and
takes over or leaves with his followers. I believe Nova Roma is no
different. We are just another on-line organization.

Ave Vedi!
Sorry I couldn't answer your call...I'm on location
Q. Fabius Maximus

Sent from my Blackberry




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lentulus Fl. Vedio patri patriae Quiritibusque s. p. d.


I echo the thoughts of our Founder, Pater Patriae Fl. Vedius Germanicus, but I do declear, and I firmly believe, that the Consul had the best intentions in heart when writing this proposal, however, unfortunately, in this form it is unacceptable. It's taking out too much what is symbolic and essential, what is dear to us, to what we have been loyal through years.

But when one of our Founders, and the Pater Patriae, sees the very idea of Nova Roma is being endangered by such a modification of the constitution, we should twice as seriously think about the question.

I was always very vocal about the love for Nova Roma as our symbolic and spiritual nation, the home for the Roman Religion, the cults of the Gods, the Lares, Manes, Penates, and the Maiores. Now I can't simply do anything else except to resist whenever those values that I embraces and worked for seem to be being marginalized or questioned.

I know it wasn't the consul's intention.

I think a proposal that left unchanged the old text, but would modify the sovereignty clause to something like "limited and symbolic sovereignty" could pass. This current proposal can't. Shouldn't.

Mustn't.


Valete!

--- Gio 1/4/10, Vedius <vedius@...> ha scritto:








 









Salvete Quirites,



Among the laws currently being discussed in the Comitia Centuriata is a

proposed change to the Constitution of Nova Roma, the Lex Memmia de novo

proemio constitutionis.



In its seemingly simple words lurks a viper. This proposal is nothing

less than the destruction of the very nature of Nova Roma as a sovereign

entity. Many people over the years have expressed displeasure at this

essential nature of the Republic, but never before has an attack on the

proposition been so bold, and so dangerous.



The Consul proposes that we trade our status as a sovereign nation for

some nebulous status as a "revival of the Roman Republic". We would no

longer be a nation, we would simply be a Rome fan-club. But that,

apparently, is what he and his supporters want.



Why? What possible reason does the Consul give for this upheaval (one so

radical I hesitate to use the term "change" as not conveying

sufficiently the enormity of the proposal)? It is quite clear he finds

this foundational aspect of Nova Roma to be an embarrassment. He wants

to attract some hypothetical class of "very interesting people that,

when they currently see our documents, may think that we are either a

bit crazy, excessive or sectarian people, and do not join us for this

kind of formal unuseful (sic) details."



Indeed, that has been at the very center of the program of a certain

segment of our society, which has achieved dominance in recent years.

They are at once embarrassed and repelled at the notion that Nova Roma

might claim a status as a sovereign nation. I am continually baffled by

such sentiments. The situation has always been laid out for all to see,

clear as glass, plain as paper. Nova Roma claims to be a sovereign

nation. Seeing that, why do they not just move on? What seditious force

compels them to join us, knowing that we embrace that which they

despise? What they are looking for is a Rome fan-club, or a reenactment

society, or a role-playing game, or something. Why the need to join Nova

Roma and then act on the compulsion to change its very nature to suit

their own predilections? Why don't they just go ahead and join one? Or

create one? It would make life all the easier for those of us who

actively embrace that aspect of Nova Roma's fundamental nature.



One must always remember that the decision that Marcus Cassius Julianus

and I took to proclaim the sovereign nature of Nova Roma was not done

lightly, nor on a whim, nor just for ego. It was done because it was

absolutely necessary-- a fundamental principal-- of the idea that Nova

Roma is "the temporal homeland and worldly focus for the Religio Romana".



Which, I note, is a phrase and sentiment also missing from the new

proposed Constitution.



Quite simply, the fundamental thesis of Nova Roma's very existence is

that, in order for the Religio Publica to be practiced in any sort of

meaningful way, it must be a sovereign nation. Without that, the very

notion of a Religio Publica loses all context, and thus all meaning.

This, of course, means little to those who do not follow the Religio, or

to those for whom it is some sort of exercise in role-playing or

reenacting or a power-trip, rather than a serious spiritual path. Anyone

can go through the motions of a ritual; Nova Roma is founded on the

belief that They will pay attention only to those rites performed on

behalf of, and thus bestow their Their favor to, a nation. A nation that

claims its right to stand among other nations as an equal. I tell you

now, if this measure is passed, the Gods will turn their backs upon Nova

Roma.



I do realize that many don't agree with that sentiment. Fine. That is

their right. They can toddle off and join some other group whose

composition is more to their liking. But leave the fundamental

principles upon which our Republic was founded alone! You knew what Nova

Roma was coming in. You do not have the right to change that, though you

may have the power.



This law is a dagger held at the very throat of Nova Roma itself. If

passed, it will obliterate the very reason for the foundation of Nova Roma.



I urge you, my fellow citizens; vote against this evil law.



Valete,



Flavius Vedius Germanicus

Pater Patriae























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Livia Hortensiae sal.

Why do you hate the pallium (in your case it's a palla anyway)?
I think you miscalculated your size, if you mean that's your height.
For a republican toga you need 5 metres of standard height fabric (150 cm),
for an imperial one 10 metres. But the good news is that you don't need a
toga, since you are a woman.

So for a palla 4,5 metres of fabric are usually enough.

Nobody knows exactly what the hue of the toga pulla was. We based on the one
seen on Cato in the HBO series "Rome". That one looked plausible, as it was
the colour of natural wool from a black sheep.

Optime vale,
Livia

----- Original Message -----
From: "rory12001" <rory12001@...>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 12:09 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: The Color Red: Tunica and Toga


M. Hortensiaa L.Liviae spd;
eh apologies Livia amica, I thought you were over at couch-surfing forum.
You know your clothing & dyes and the entire business.

So nowplease help me with your expertise!. I have a pallium which I hate,
but given my size 152 centimeters I don't know how much cloth I need for a
toga...also can you give me a clue about the range of dark brown for the
toga pulla as Pythagoreans wore one in the Republic & I've always wanted to
wear one.
optime vale
Maior

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Livia Plauta" <livia.plauta@...>
wrote:
>
> L. Livia Plauta L. Iuliae Aquilae S.P.D.
>
> According to all my research any colour is acceptable for tunics,
> including
> red as long as it's not purpura. Red obtained from other dyes like
> cynaber,
> kermes, madder is acceptable. Just the one obtained from the little murex
> is
> not, or anything resembling that hue.
>
> This for the tunics. Togas, however, were always white, except for togae
> pullae, which were dark brown and used only in mourning.
>
> A red toga was, ehm, the prerogative of (female) prostitutes in the
> republican period, so it's not a good idea for your grandson to wear one.
>
> But while a toga was formal wear, and very codified, a pallium, the
> informal
> overgarment most often worn by men, could be any colour (again, with the
> exception of purple).
>
> I'm always suspicious of what people call "toga". If your grandson's
> garment
> is a rectangular piece of cloth, shorter than 5 metres, and it doesn't
> have
> rounded corners, then it's safe to call it a pallium, and it has nothing
> to
> do with a toga.
>
> In that case your young grandson would be wearing a fashionable
> "synthesis"
> a combination of tunica and pallium of the same colour, which was usually
> worn at banquets.
>
> The draping is also relevant: for a pallium disregard all the instructions
> on our wiki on how to drape a toga. A pallium can be draped very easily:
> in
> this photo
> http://floralia2009.ap-claudia-alba.fotoalbum.hu/viewpicture/pictureid/6819424
> you can see A. Apollonius Cordus wearing a Pallium. Actually he didn't
> have
> much practice: the fabric end you can see down at his elbow should have
> draped evenly from his left shoulder down to the left arm. He could also
> have worn it over his right arm too, if it hadn't been so hot that day.
>
> Optime vale,
> Livia
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "luciaiuliaaquila" <dis_pensible@>
> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 10:37 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] The Color Red: Tunica and Toga
>
>
> L. Iulia Aquila A. Tulliae Scholasticae L. Liviae Plautae amicae et
> amici
> omnnibusque S.P.D.
>
> Some of you already know that my grandson Marcus Iulius Aquila, who turned
> 18 the end of January, passed his exam and is now a full citizen of the
> Nova
> Roma!
>
> He has chosen some photos to post, they include last year's prom photo in
> a
> black tux, photos in a toga virilis and his favorite - and the reason for
> this post - a red tunica and toga - which is his first choice to post in
> the
> Album Civium.
>
> I am asking the forum for feedback regarding this to help with this
> decision.
> I have seen red tunica on both females and males (in various media), also
> on
> Sacerdotes - not that I am certain one way or another of their
> authenticity.
> And recently Drusus posted a video of a Conferratio (which I have seen
> before) where Red garments are worn:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/74692
> Thank you in advance for any feedback~
>
> Curate ut valeatis optime,
>
> Julia
>

Cato Memmio Albucio Vedio Germanico Cornelio Lentulo Hortensiae Maiori
omnibusque in foro SPD

Let's look at it a bit more carefully.

The Romans were, above all else, eminently practical people.

This is the question we should ask ourselves:

Does this proposed preamble negate the possibility of being a sovereign nation?

Look at the key phrase:

"Nova Roma is, within the constraints of current international and national laws, the revival of ancient Rome."

So "within the constraints of current international and national laws"; i.e., as far as we are allowed to do so by macronational legal authorities. Simply put, we must obey the laws of the international community - no problem there. But if, in the future, we are given (or buy) a plot of land (regardless of how big it is) and granted sovereignty by the macronational entity involved, our constraints are made equal to any other sovereign national entity.

It might be possible, for the sake of clarity or comfort, to simply delete the word "current"; likewise, we could replace "constraints" with "limits", if that word feels too...constraining. But in real life, *all* nations are constrained by international laws, and this would make us no better or worse than any other sovereign nation. We could also amend the first line to read: "Nova Roma is...restoration of the ancient Roman Republic."

We do, already, right now, fulfill the two basic requirements that Cicero lays down for a respublica: we have a (1) a common law and (2) common goals; Lentulus is right in that we already exercise a somewhat limited - yet valid - form of sovereignty, based on these two foundation-stones. But to pretend that we are physically, geographically the Roman Republic right now is simply foolishness
and impractical. We may, the gods willing, someday reach that goal - perhaps that goal could be stated in the Preamble - but that day is not today, and this proposal does *not* make that future impossible.

Does this geographical challenge minimize our ability to be the home of the Roman sacra publica? Not at all. As I said, we are already a Roman respublica based on Cicero's definition. That respublica can be - is, in fact - the home of the religiones Romanae, and we have pontiffs and priests already celebrating the sacra publica and sacra privata, made most evident in the recent wonderful celebration of the conferratio.

I think that what the consul is trying to do is hone our focus; we have been around for more than a decade, yet we seem still to be somewhat fumbling in our approach to the outside world. Two pillars hold us up: the sacra publica and the law. We need to work on both.

Valete,

Cato

Salve,

Cato wrote:

> Cato Memmio Albucio Vedio Germanico Cornelio Lentulo Hortensiae Maiori omnibusque in foro SPD
>
> Let's look at it a bit more carefully.
>

I assure you, I have looked at this issue carefully. I looked at it
carefully more than a decade ago, and I have continued to look at it
carefully. This law is a direct threat to the very reason Nova Roma was
founded.

I find your motives, as an outstanding promoter of the Christian faith,
somewhat suspect, especially inasmuch as this is an issue that deals
primarily with the relationship of the citizens of Nova Roma and the
Gods of Olympus. Something that is hardly in your interests to promote.

A few days ago you were trumpeting the supposed triumph of your mythical
savior. Now you propose to lecture me on how Nova Roma should approach
its relationship with the Gods? I think not.

> The Romans were, above all else, eminently practical people.
>
> This is the question we should ask ourselves:
>
> Does this proposed preamble negate the possibility of being a sovereign nation?
>
> Look at the key phrase:
>
> "Nova Roma is, within the constraints of current international and national laws, the revival of ancient Rome."
>
> So "within the constraints of current international and national laws"; i.e., as far as we are allowed to do so by macronational legal authorities. Simply put, we must obey the laws of the international community - no problem there. But if, in the future, we are given (or buy) a plot of land (regardless of how big it is) and granted sovereignty by the macronational entity involved, our constraints are made equal to any other sovereign national entity.
>
> It might be possible, for the sake of clarity or comfort, to simply delete the word "current"; likewise, we could replace "constraints" with "limits", if that word feels too...constraining. But in real life, *all* nations are constrained by international laws, and this would make us no better or worse than any other sovereign nation.
>

If it's such a trivial matter, such a bit of nonsense, then why change
it? Why remove the word "nation"? It has nothing to do with legal
recognition and everything to do with how the Nova Romans see
themselves. Nationhood, in the sense you mean it, is an aspiration! Why
would you remove that? As it currently exists, nationhood is the glue
that binds us together, and the one thing that gives meaning to the
Religio Publica. The rites of the Religio Publica are done on behalf of
a nation, not on behalf of the members of an email list.

But I wouldn't expect you to understand that.

> We do, already, right now, fulfill the two basic requirements that Cicero lays down for a respublica: we have a (1) a common law and (2) common goals; Lentulus is right in that we already exercise a somewhat limited - yet valid - form of sovereignty, based on these two foundation-stones. But to pretend that we are physically, geographically the Roman Republic right now is simply foolishness and impractical. We may, the gods willing, someday reach that goal - perhaps that goal could be stated in the Preamble - but that day is not today.
>

Cato, if this is so manifestly "impractical foolishness", why did you
bother joining? You knew what Nova Roma claimed to be at the time; it
was stated clearly, proudly, and prominently. Nothing was hidden. Yet
you joined anyway.

What changed? If you suddenly find that fundamental nature unpalatable
or embarrassing, I suggest you find an organization whose nature is more
to your liking. Why must you seek to change what Nova Roma is?

> Does this geographical challenge minimize our ability to be the home of the Roman sacra publica? Not at all. As I said, we are already a Roman respublica based on Cicero's definition. That respublica can be - is, in fact - the home of the religiones Romanae, and we have pontiffs and priests already celebrating the sacra publica and sacra privata, made most evident in the wonderful celebration of the conferratio.
>

Actually, if you look at another of the laws this Consul has proposed,
he specifically removes the definition of Nova Roma as the home of the
Religio Romana. Nova Roma just becomes yet another Roman fan club. There
are so many of those already-- can't you and he go join one of them,
rather than trying to change the fundamental nature of Nova Roma?

If you don't like the fact that Nova Roma claims sovereignty, fine! Go
someplace that meets your expectations.

But leave the rest of us alone!

Flavius Vedius Germanicus
Pater Patriae

Lentulus Hortensiae s. p. d.


Thank you for reinforcing what I have said!

There is no other home for us: for our Roman sentiment and spirituality. We are refugees of a culture that is part of all modern cultures in the West, yet it is so exotic and alien for the modern mind. That culture is a new perspective to see things from another point of view, a point of view that is new today, but it's very ancient, and European way of thinking: the Roman perspective. We are both anachronistic and very actual, up to date, too.  The current world is similar to the ancient Roman world in so many ways, I think this age is when the Western Civilization can find again its roots, not forgetting about its entire history, but reinforcing the core elements. It needs the exotic so much, while it needs its own roots, its own identity desperately as well.

Romanitas is exotic AND very familiar in the same time. That's how we can be the pioneers of a new spirituality and western identity.

But until we live in our "Roman diaspora", there is no other home for us than the nation Nova Roma, so we have to embrace it proudly as the only thing that currently is able to express the uniqueness and sovereignty of our identity.

Because even if our state is existing only in theory, and our political sovereignty is purely symbolic, our identity, however, is unique, new and sovereign, not subject to any other entity, independent and free.

A new Roman identity.



--- Gio 1/4/10, rory12001 <rory12001@...> ha scritto:







 











--- Maior Lentulo spd;

I agree with you 1,000% amice, Nova Roma is a spiritual home. It makes it unique and not just another Roman org, where people are back to Atilla and Rory on the weekdays.

vale

Maior



, so I would support, for example, instead of taking the sovereignty clause out of the constitution, the addition of "limited sovereignty" . Thus we would not betray our spiritual nation Nova Roma, and still we could show a more modest, more realistical face.

>

>

> More about the law proposals later!

>

> CN LENTULUS

>

>

>

>

>

>

> --- Mar 30/3/10, publiusalbucius <albucius_aoe@ ...> ha scritto:

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>  

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Salvete Quirites,

>

>

>

> Here is below the 5th Law proposal:

>

>

>

> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _

>

>

>

> Item V â€" Lex Memmia de novo proemio constitutionis

>

>

>

> [Constitution â€" New preamble]

>

>

>

> The current preamble of our Constitution still contains a few elements whose most emblematic one is probably the affirmation that Nova Roma is "an independent and sovereign nation".

>

>

>

> If this affirmation may have helped us to gather, ten years ago, our energies to build our community, we are well aware now that such assessment cannot, juridically, be received by both national and international laws: most of national laws, included the U.S. and Italy ones consider our community for what it is, an association, a non profit making corporation which lives and works in the frame of the national legal systems. If International Law may recognize Nova Roma as a community, we still miss the territorial element and, overall, the international recognition.

>

>

>

> Drawing quietly the consequences of a legal situation will help us underlining the fact that our institutions are now skilled enough and our res publica both adult enough and conscious of its force, to state this situation in its fundamental act - our Constitution - and, at the same time, to reword it in a legal and more dynamic way, in order to open the second decenium of our common life. Such a renewed text, in addition, will fit with the intended adoption of Nova Roma inc. bylaws.

>

>

>

> In view of the Constitution, specially its Preamble,

>

>

>

> After due consultation of the Senate, the Comitia centuriata decides:

>

>

>

> Article 1: The current Preamble of the Constitution is replaced by the following text:

>

>

>

> " IN THE NAME OF THE SENATE AND PEOPLE OF ROME, the present Constitution is enacted as the keystone of Nova Roma and her institutions.

>

>

>

> Nova Roma is, within the constraints of current international and national laws, the revival of ancient Rome.

>

>

>

> This revival encompasses Republican Roman institutions and civilization from the foundation of the City in 753 BCE to the deposition of Romulus Augustulus in 1229 AUC (476 CE), and is inclusive, but not limited to, history, culture, languages, economy, institutions, beliefs, virtues and religions,  and especially the Roman religion.

>

>

>

> It may also include the interactions of other civilizations and nations of that time period with Rome.

>

>

>

> The Nova Roman res publica shall encourage the daily life of a community of persons interested in the knowledge of the civilization of ancient Rome, the conservation and the promotion of its cultural heritage, and the promotion, in our own time, of Republican Roman virtues. "

>

>

>

> Article 2 : Every officer of Nova Roma is charged of the good execution of the present law, which shall be applicable from its ratification by Nova Roma senate on, and published in the Tabularium Nova Romae (Laws section).

>

>

>

> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

>

>

>

> APPENDIX: Current preamble of the Constitution

>

>

>

> ''We, the Senate and People of Nova Roma, as an independent and sovereign nation, herewith set forth this Constitution as the foundation and structure of our governing institutions and common society. We hereby declare our Nation to stand as a beacon for those who would recreate the best of ancient Rome. As a nation, Nova Roma shall be the temporal homeland and worldly focus for the Religio Romana. The primary function of Nova Roma shall be to promote the study and practice of pagan Roman civilization, defined as the period from the founding of the City of Rome in 753 BCE to the removal of the altar of Victory from the Senate in 394 CE and encompassing such fields as religion, culture, politics, art, literature, language, and philosophy.

>

> As the spiritual heir to the ancient Roman Republic and Empire, Nova Roma shall endeavor to exist, in all manners practical and acceptable, as the modern restoration of the ancient Roman Republic. The culture, religion, and society of Nova Roma shall be patterned upon those of ancient Rome.''

>

>

>

> You may find the previous versions via the page:

>

> http://www.novaroma .org/nr/Category :Constitution_ %28Nova_Roma% 29

>

>

>

> ____________ _________ _________ _____

>

>

>

> Valete omnes,

>

>

>

> Albucius cos.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cato Vedio Germanico sal.

What a useless stream of nonsense. From "the Gods of Olympus" (not the gods of Rome? Where did They go?) to the "leave us alone!" a wonderfully dramatic piece, full of sound and fury and...you know the rest.

Frankly, I was surprised that it was you and not Maior who jumped down my throat using Christianity as a straw man; that's usually her gig.

Vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Vedius <vedius@...> wrote:
>
> Salve,
>
> Cato wrote:
> > Cato Memmio Albucio Vedio Germanico Cornelio Lentulo Hortensiae Maiori omnibusque in foro SPD
> >
> > Let's look at it a bit more carefully.
> >
>
> I assure you, I have looked at this issue carefully. I looked at it
> carefully more than a decade ago, and I have continued to look at it
> carefully. This law is a direct threat to the very reason Nova Roma was
> founded.
>
> I find your motives, as an outstanding promoter of the Christian faith,
> somewhat suspect, especially inasmuch as this is an issue that deals
> primarily with the relationship of the citizens of Nova Roma and the
> Gods of Olympus. Something that is hardly in your interests to promote.
>
> A few days ago you were trumpeting the supposed triumph of your mythical
> savior. Now you propose to lecture me on how Nova Roma should approach
> its relationship with the Gods? I think not.
>
> > The Romans were, above all else, eminently practical people.
> >
> > This is the question we should ask ourselves:
> >
> > Does this proposed preamble negate the possibility of being a sovereign nation?
> >
> > Look at the key phrase:
> >
> > "Nova Roma is, within the constraints of current international and national laws, the revival of ancient Rome."
> >
> > So "within the constraints of current international and national laws"; i.e., as far as we are allowed to do so by macronational legal authorities. Simply put, we must obey the laws of the international community - no problem there. But if, in the future, we are given (or buy) a plot of land (regardless of how big it is) and granted sovereignty by the macronational entity involved, our constraints are made equal to any other sovereign national entity.
> >
> > It might be possible, for the sake of clarity or comfort, to simply delete the word "current"; likewise, we could replace "constraints" with "limits", if that word feels too...constraining. But in real life, *all* nations are constrained by international laws, and this would make us no better or worse than any other sovereign nation.
> >
>
> If it's such a trivial matter, such a bit of nonsense, then why change
> it? Why remove the word "nation"? It has nothing to do with legal
> recognition and everything to do with how the Nova Romans see
> themselves. Nationhood, in the sense you mean it, is an aspiration! Why
> would you remove that? As it currently exists, nationhood is the glue
> that binds us together, and the one thing that gives meaning to the
> Religio Publica. The rites of the Religio Publica are done on behalf of
> a nation, not on behalf of the members of an email list.
>
> But I wouldn't expect you to understand that.
>
> > We do, already, right now, fulfill the two basic requirements that Cicero lays down for a respublica: we have a (1) a common law and (2) common goals; Lentulus is right in that we already exercise a somewhat limited - yet valid - form of sovereignty, based on these two foundation-stones. But to pretend that we are physically, geographically the Roman Republic right now is simply foolishness and impractical. We may, the gods willing, someday reach that goal - perhaps that goal could be stated in the Preamble - but that day is not today.
> >
>
> Cato, if this is so manifestly "impractical foolishness", why did you
> bother joining? You knew what Nova Roma claimed to be at the time; it
> was stated clearly, proudly, and prominently. Nothing was hidden. Yet
> you joined anyway.
>
> What changed? If you suddenly find that fundamental nature unpalatable
> or embarrassing, I suggest you find an organization whose nature is more
> to your liking. Why must you seek to change what Nova Roma is?
>
> > Does this geographical challenge minimize our ability to be the home of the Roman sacra publica? Not at all. As I said, we are already a Roman respublica based on Cicero's definition. That respublica can be - is, in fact - the home of the religiones Romanae, and we have pontiffs and priests already celebrating the sacra publica and sacra privata, made most evident in the wonderful celebration of the conferratio.
> >
>
> Actually, if you look at another of the laws this Consul has proposed,
> he specifically removes the definition of Nova Roma as the home of the
> Religio Romana. Nova Roma just becomes yet another Roman fan club. There
> are so many of those already-- can't you and he go join one of them,
> rather than trying to change the fundamental nature of Nova Roma?
>
> If you don't like the fact that Nova Roma claims sovereignty, fine! Go
> someplace that meets your expectations.
>
> But leave the rest of us alone!
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus
> Pater Patriae
>

Maior Liviae spd;
yes, that's my height. I see. then a Republican toga no matter what your size is 5 meters of fabric.
Heh, I want to wear a toga, it's a huge signifier of Rome, all it stands for. Our history, institutions, religio, virtues...It's so Roman!

In ancient times women were togas and in the Republic young girls wore them. In fact there is some scholarly discussion in regard to married adulterous women who supposedly wore the toga that this signified they were not under anyone's tutelage...

Do you know the name of the breed(s) of Italian sheep? Maybe I can get a picture so I can see the color. Par of me wishes I knew or had a loom, that would be pretty great to weave one.
thanks for your expertise amica!
vale
Maior

> Why do you hate the pallium (in your case it's a palla anyway)?
> I think you miscalculated your size, if you mean that's your height.
> For a republican toga you need 5 metres of standard height fabric (150 cm),
> for an imperial one 10 metres. But the good news is that you don't need a
> toga, since you are a woman.
>
> So for a palla 4,5 metres of fabric are usually enough.
>
> Nobody knows exactly what the hue of the toga pulla was. We based on the one
> seen on Cato in the HBO series "Rome". That one looked plausible, as it was
> the colour of natural wool from a black sheep.
>
> Optime vale,
> Livia
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "rory12001" <rory12001@>
> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 12:09 AM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: The Color Red: Tunica and Toga
>
>
> M. Hortensiaa L.Liviae spd;
> eh apologies Livia amica, I thought you were over at couch-surfing forum.
> You know your clothing & dyes and the entire business.
>
> So nowplease help me with your expertise!. I have a pallium which I hate,
> but given my size 152 centimeters I don't know how much cloth I need for a
> toga...also can you give me a clue about the range of dark brown for the
> toga pulla as Pythagoreans wore one in the Republic & I've always wanted to
> wear one.
> optime vale
> Maior
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Livia Plauta" <livia.plauta@>
> wrote:
> >
> > L. Livia Plauta L. Iuliae Aquilae S.P.D.
> >
> > According to all my research any colour is acceptable for tunics,
> > including
> > red as long as it's not purpura. Red obtained from other dyes like
> > cynaber,
> > kermes, madder is acceptable. Just the one obtained from the little murex
> > is
> > not, or anything resembling that hue.
> >
> > This for the tunics. Togas, however, were always white, except for togae
> > pullae, which were dark brown and used only in mourning.
> >
> > A red toga was, ehm, the prerogative of (female) prostitutes in the
> > republican period, so it's not a good idea for your grandson to wear one.
> >
> > But while a toga was formal wear, and very codified, a pallium, the
> > informal
> > overgarment most often worn by men, could be any colour (again, with the
> > exception of purple).
> >
> > I'm always suspicious of what people call "toga". If your grandson's
> > garment
> > is a rectangular piece of cloth, shorter than 5 metres, and it doesn't
> > have
> > rounded corners, then it's safe to call it a pallium, and it has nothing
> > to
> > do with a toga.
> >
> > In that case your young grandson would be wearing a fashionable
> > "synthesis"
> > a combination of tunica and pallium of the same colour, which was usually
> > worn at banquets.
> >
> > The draping is also relevant: for a pallium disregard all the instructions
> > on our wiki on how to drape a toga. A pallium can be draped very easily:
> > in
> > this photo
> > http://floralia2009.ap-claudia-alba.fotoalbum.hu/viewpicture/pictureid/6819424
> > you can see A. Apollonius Cordus wearing a Pallium. Actually he didn't
> > have
> > much practice: the fabric end you can see down at his elbow should have
> > draped evenly from his left shoulder down to the left arm. He could also
> > have worn it over his right arm too, if it hadn't been so hot that day.
> >
> > Optime vale,
> > Livia
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "luciaiuliaaquila" <dis_pensible@>
> > To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 10:37 PM
> > Subject: [Nova-Roma] The Color Red: Tunica and Toga
> >
> >
> > L. Iulia Aquila A. Tulliae Scholasticae L. Liviae Plautae amicae et
> > amici
> > omnnibusque S.P.D.
> >
> > Some of you already know that my grandson Marcus Iulius Aquila, who turned
> > 18 the end of January, passed his exam and is now a full citizen of the
> > Nova
> > Roma!
> >
> > He has chosen some photos to post, they include last year's prom photo in
> > a
> > black tux, photos in a toga virilis and his favorite - and the reason for
> > this post - a red tunica and toga - which is his first choice to post in
> > the
> > Album Civium.
> >
> > I am asking the forum for feedback regarding this to help with this
> > decision.
> > I have seen red tunica on both females and males (in various media), also
> > on
> > Sacerdotes - not that I am certain one way or another of their
> > authenticity.
> > And recently Drusus posted a video of a Conferratio (which I have seen
> > before) where Red garments are worn:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/74692
> > Thank you in advance for any feedback~
> >
> > Curate ut valeatis optime,
> >
> > Julia
> >
>

Maior Lentulo spd;
O, you have said what is in my heart & mind, why I and others joined Nova Roma . I think this is one of the noblest efforts of our time.
I stand beside you , Lentule, as a fellow Nova Roman, sharing our great vision.
vale
Maior

>
> Thank you for reinforcing what I have said!
>
> There is no other home for us: for our Roman sentiment and spirituality. We are refugees of a culture that is part of all modern cultures in the West, yet it is so exotic and alien for the modern mind. That culture is a new perspective to see things from another point of view, a point of view that is new today, but it's very ancient, and European way of thinking: the Roman perspective. We are both anachronistic and very actual, up to date, too. The current world is similar to the ancient Roman world in so many ways, I think this age is when the Western Civilization can find again its roots, not forgetting about its entire history, but reinforcing the core elements. It needs the exotic so much, while it needs its own roots, its own identity desperately as well.
>
> Romanitas is exotic AND very familiar in the same time. That's how we can be the pioneers of a new spirituality and western identity.
>
> But until we live in our "Roman diaspora", there is no other home for us than the nation Nova Roma, so we have to embrace it proudly as the only thing that currently is able to express the uniqueness and sovereignty of our identity.
>
> Because even if our state is existing only in theory, and our political sovereignty is purely symbolic, our identity, however, is unique, new and sovereign, not subject to any other entity, independent and free.
>
> A new Roman identity.
>
>
>
> --- Gio 1/4/10, rory12001 <rory12001@...> ha scritto:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Â
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- Maior Lentulo spd;
>
> I agree with you 1,000% amice, Nova Roma is a spiritual home. It makes it unique and not just another Roman org, where people are back to Atilla and Rory on the weekdays.
>
> vale
>
> Maior
>
>
>
> , so I would support, for example, instead of taking the sovereignty clause out of the constitution, the addition of "limited sovereignty" . Thus we would not betray our spiritual nation Nova Roma, and still we could show a more modest, more realistical face.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > More about the law proposals later!
>
> >
>
> > CN LENTULUS
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > --- Mar 30/3/10, publiusalbucius <albucius_aoe@ ...> ha scritto:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > ÂÂ
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Salvete Quirites,
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Here is below the 5th Law proposal:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Item V â€" Lex Memmia de novo proemio constitutionis
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > [Constitution â€" New preamble]
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > The current preamble of our Constitution still contains a few elements whose most emblematic one is probably the affirmation that Nova Roma is "an independent and sovereign nation".
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > If this affirmation may have helped us to gather, ten years ago, our energies to build our community, we are well aware now that such assessment cannot, juridically, be received by both national and international laws: most of national laws, included the U.S. and Italy ones consider our community for what it is, an association, a non profit making corporation which lives and works in the frame of the national legal systems. If International Law may recognize Nova Roma as a community, we still miss the territorial element and, overall, the international recognition.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Drawing quietly the consequences of a legal situation will help us underlining the fact that our institutions are now skilled enough and our res publica both adult enough and conscious of its force, to state this situation in its fundamental act - our Constitution - and, at the same time, to reword it in a legal and more dynamic way, in order to open the second decenium of our common life. Such a renewed text, in addition, will fit with the intended adoption of Nova Roma inc. bylaws.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > In view of the Constitution, specially its Preamble,
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > After due consultation of the Senate, the Comitia centuriata decides:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Article 1: The current Preamble of the Constitution is replaced by the following text:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > " IN THE NAME OF THE SENATE AND PEOPLE OF ROME, the present Constitution is enacted as the keystone of Nova Roma and her institutions.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Nova Roma is, within the constraints of current international and national laws, the revival of ancient Rome.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > This revival encompasses Republican Roman institutions and civilization from the foundation of the City in 753 BCE to the deposition of Romulus Augustulus in 1229 AUC (476 CE), and is inclusive, but not limited to, history, culture, languages, economy, institutions, beliefs, virtues and religions, and especially the Roman religion.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > It may also include the interactions of other civilizations and nations of that time period with Rome.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > The Nova Roman res publica shall encourage the daily life of a community of persons interested in the knowledge of the civilization of ancient Rome, the conservation and the promotion of its cultural heritage, and the promotion, in our own time, of Republican Roman virtues. "
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Article 2 : Every officer of Nova Roma is charged of the good execution of the present law, which shall be applicable from its ratification by Nova Roma senate on, and published in the Tabularium Nova Romae (Laws section).
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > APPENDIX: Current preamble of the Constitution
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > ''We, the Senate and People of Nova Roma, as an independent and sovereign nation, herewith set forth this Constitution as the foundation and structure of our governing institutions and common society. We hereby declare our Nation to stand as a beacon for those who would recreate the best of ancient Rome. As a nation, Nova Roma shall be the temporal homeland and worldly focus for the Religio Romana. The primary function of Nova Roma shall be to promote the study and practice of pagan Roman civilization, defined as the period from the founding of the City of Rome in 753 BCE to the removal of the altar of Victory from the Senate in 394 CE and encompassing such fields as religion, culture, politics, art, literature, language, and philosophy.
>
> >
>
> > As the spiritual heir to the ancient Roman Republic and Empire, Nova Roma shall endeavor to exist, in all manners practical and acceptable, as the modern restoration of the ancient Roman Republic. The culture, religion, and society of Nova Roma shall be patterned upon those of ancient Rome.''
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > You may find the previous versions via the page:
>
> >
>
> > http://www.novaroma .org/nr/Category :Constitution_ %28Nova_Roma% 29
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > ____________ _________ _________ _____
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Valete omnes,
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Albucius cos.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Salvete omnes,



Indeed. Lentulus, that man of vision and wisdom, has put our thoughts into
words, eloquently as ever. Concordia smiles every time he takes to the
keyboard.



Valete,

L. Aemilia



_____

From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of rory12001
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 8:36 PM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: R: [Nova-Roma] Re: Against the proposed changes in the
Constitution's preamble





Maior Lentulo spd;
O, you have said what is in my heart & mind, why I and others joined Nova
Roma . I think this is one of the noblest efforts of our time.
I stand beside you , Lentule, as a fellow Nova Roman, sharing our great
vision.
vale
Maior

>
> Thank you for reinforcing what I have said!
>
> There is no other home for us: for our Roman sentiment and spirituality.

We are refugees of a culture that is part of all modern cultures in the
West, yet it is so exotic and alien for the modern mind. That culture is a
new perspective to see things from another point of view, a point of view
that is new today, but it's very ancient, and European way of thinking: the
Roman perspective. We are both anachronistic and very actual, up to date,
too. The current world is similar to the ancient Roman world in so many
ways, I think this age is when the Western Civilization can find again its
roots, not forgetting about its entire history, but reinforcing the core
elements. It needs the exotic so much, while it needs its own roots, its own
identity desperately as well.

>
> Romanitas is exotic AND very familiar in the same time. That's how we can

be the pioneers of a new spirituality and western identity.

>
> But until we live in our "Roman diaspora", there is no other home for us

than the nation Nova Roma, so we have to embrace it proudly as the only
thing that currently is able to express the uniqueness and sovereignty of
our identity.

>
> Because even if our state is existing only in theory, and our political

sovereignty is purely symbolic, our identity, however, is unique, new and
sovereign, not subject to any other entity, independent and free.

>
> A new Roman identity.
>
>
>
> --- Gio 1/4/10, rory12001 <rory12001@...> ha scritto:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Â
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- Maior Lentulo spd;
>
> I agree with you 1,000% amice, Nova Roma is a spiritual home. It makes it

unique and not just another Roman org, where people are back to Atilla and
Rory on the weekdays.

>
> vale
>
> Maior
>
>
>
> , so I would support, for example, instead of taking the sovereignty

clause out of the constitution, the addition of "limited sovereignty" . Thus
we would not betray our spiritual nation Nova Roma, and still we could show
a more modest, more realistical face.

>
> >
>
> >
>
> > More about the law proposals later!
>
> >
>
> > CN LENTULUS
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > --- Mar 30/3/10, publiusalbucius <albucius_aoe@ ...> ha scritto:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > ÂÂ
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Salvete Quirites,
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Here is below the 5th Law proposal:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Item V â€" Lex Memmia de novo proemio constitutionis
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > [Constitution â€" New preamble]
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > The current preamble of our Constitution still contains a few elements

whose most emblematic one is probably the affirmation that Nova Roma is "an
independent and sovereign nation".

>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > If this affirmation may have helped us to gather, ten years ago, our

energies to build our community, we are well aware now that such assessment
cannot, juridically, be received by both national and international laws:
most of national laws, included the U.S. and Italy ones consider our
community for what it is, an association, a non profit making corporation
which lives and works in the frame of the national legal systems. If
International Law may recognize Nova Roma as a community, we still miss the
territorial element and, overall, the international recognition.

>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Drawing quietly the consequences of a legal situation will help us

underlining the fact that our institutions are now skilled enough and our
res publica both adult enough and conscious of its force, to state this
situation in its fundamental act - our Constitution - and, at the same time,
to reword it in a legal and more dynamic way, in order to open the second
decenium of our common life. Such a renewed text, in addition, will fit with
the intended adoption of Nova Roma inc. bylaws.

>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > In view of the Constitution, specially its Preamble,
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > After due consultation of the Senate, the Comitia centuriata decides:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Article 1: The current Preamble of the Constitution is replaced by the

following text:

>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > " IN THE NAME OF THE SENATE AND PEOPLE OF ROME, the present

Constitution is enacted as the keystone of Nova Roma and her
institutions.

>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Nova Roma is, within the constraints of current international and

national laws, the revival of ancient Rome.

>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > This revival encompasses Republican Roman institutions and civilization

from the foundation of the City in 753 BCE to the deposition of Romulus
Augustulus in 1229 AUC (476 CE), and is inclusive, but not limited to,
history, culture, languages, economy, institutions, beliefs, virtues andÂÂ
religions, and especially the Roman religion.

>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > It may also include the interactions of other civilizations and nations

of that time period with Rome.

>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > The Nova Roman res publica shall encourage the daily life of a

community of persons interested in the knowledge of the civilization of
ancient Rome, the conservation and the promotion of its cultural heritage,
and the promotion, in our own time, of Republican Roman virtues. "

>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Article 2 : Every officer of Nova Roma is charged of the good execution

of the present law, which shall be applicable from its ratification by Nova
Roma senate on, and published in the Tabularium Nova Romae (Laws section).

>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > APPENDIX: Current preamble of the Constitution
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > ''We, the Senate and People of Nova Roma, as an independent and

sovereign nation, herewith set forth this Constitution as the foundation and
structure of our governing institutions and common society. We hereby
declare our Nation to stand as a beacon for those who would recreate the
best of ancient Rome. As a nation, Nova Roma shall be the temporal homeland
and worldly focus for the Religio Romana. The primary function of Nova Roma
shall be to promote the study and practice of pagan Roman civilization,
defined as the period from the founding of the City of Rome in 753 BCE to
the removal of the altar of Victory from the Senate in 394 CE and
encompassing such fields as religion, culture, politics, art, literature,
language, and philosophy.

>
> >
>
> > As the spiritual heir to the ancient Roman Republic and Empire, Nova

Roma shall endeavor to exist, in all manners practical and acceptable, as
the modern restoration of the ancient Roman Republic. The culture, religion,
and society of Nova Roma shall be patterned upon those of ancient Rome.''

>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > You may find the previous versions via the page:
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14:32:00




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Salvete omnes,

I have answered Pater Patriae Vedius in the frame of the Comitia Centuriata, which is the place to discuss about our rogationes.

I think having shown there, as Cato has here but with another point of view, that Vedius confused sovereignty and State, and had an obsolete view of the relation State-RR, for nobody does not contest any more the role and place of the RR in our State.

I may have shaked a bit our Pater Patriae ;-), but, as my answer let understand it, I consider that Nova Roma has kept on living and developing in his absence and that we missed Vedius when we needed him.

On the matter, nothing has changed between us:
1/ we all share the same strong relation with our commmunity, that we may also call a "nation", if we prefer
2/ this community, called Nova Roma, is Rome
3/ there is just one Rome, ours
4/ our *goal* is still recovering a territory and a sovereignty, which means international recognition, but we are wise enough to state that this target is not a short-term one, and may take generations.
5/ meanwhile, we face the reality and place our action in the frame of current national and international Laws.

Valete sincerely omnes,


Albucius cos.

Salve,

The place to discuss laws is where the people are. If the people are
here, then let the discussion be held here, and not in some conveniently
circumspect backwater. Why not have a discussion in front of everyone?
Surely you have nothing to hide.

As far as my "obsolete view", I submit that that is precisely the issue
at hand. Is my view, that an undisputed statement of sovereignty is a
requirement "obsolete" as you say? I say it is essential to the pursuit
of the Religio Publica, and I laid out my case why that is so. It was,
in fact, the very reason for the formation of Nova Roma. It would not
have existed otherwise. You, in turn, just gave some condescending and
dismissive remarks.

You say that Nova Roma shouldn't think of itself as a sovereign nation,
for a variety of reasons with which I happen to disagree. I have to
wonder why, then, you didn't go someplace where a claim of sovereignty
isn't in place. Why do you feel the need to change that one fundamental
aspect of Nova Roma? Why not go where you'd feel more comfortable? Why
change what Nova Roma *is*?

You still have yet to answer that question, Consul.

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus
Pater Patriae

publiusalbucius wrote:

> Salvete omnes,
>
> I have answered Pater Patriae Vedius in the frame of the Comitia Centuriata, which is the place to discuss about our rogationes.
>
> I think having shown there, as Cato has here but with another point of view, that Vedius confused sovereignty and State, and had an obsolete view of the relation State-RR, for nobody does not contest any more the role and place of the RR in our State.
>
> I may have shaked a bit our Pater Patriae ;-), but, as my answer let understand it, I consider that Nova Roma has kept on living and developing in his absence and that we missed Vedius when we needed him.
>
> On the matter, nothing has changed between us:
> 1/ we all share the same strong relation with our commmunity, that we may also call a "nation", if we prefer
> 2/ this community, called Nova Roma, is Rome
> 3/ there is just one Rome, ours
> 4/ our *goal* is still recovering a territory and a sovereignty, which means international recognition, but we are wise enough to state that this target is not a short-term one, and may take generations.
> 5/ meanwhile, we face the reality and place our action in the frame of current national and international Laws.
>
> Valete sincerely omnes,
>
>
> Albucius cos.
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

C. Maria Caeca Cn. Cornelio Lentulo S. P. D.

Amice, you have looked into my heart, and read what is there concerning this, my spiritual homeland ...and there is nothing I could possibly add (although I probably will try). We are, as usual, in complete accord, and thank you for saying this so very beautifully!

Val quam optime,
C. Maria Caeca

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E. Iunia Laeca M. Hortensia Maiorque Quiritibus spd;

here is the link to the Nova Roma Comitia Centuriata
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NovaRomaComitiaCenturiata/ which is currently debating these changes.
all citizens of Nova Roma can join this group.
vale
E. Iunia Laeca, praetrix maior
M. Hortensia Maior, praetrix minor

Cato Vedio Germanico omnibusque in foro SPD

The Constitution is not the place in which we outline our hopes and dreams for the future. The Constitution is a working document that outlines how we will govern ourselves.

The Declaratio is the place to describe our hopes and dreams for the future, and it does so well; it sets out to describe the viusion of the founders in dramatic, stirring words.

I would ask you to compare the Preamble of the US Constitution with the visionary text of the US Declaration of Independence.

The Declaration sets out the foundations of the dream of a new, independent nation: "When in the course of human events..."; the Constitution sets out specific goals for governance: "We, the People of the United States, in order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice and ensure domestic Tranquility..."

The two - the vision and the *practical* application of that vision - are not mutually exclusive. They should not be. The Constitution creates the workable framework within which that vision can be achieved.

To act as if anyone who desires to see a more applicable approach to achieving that vision is trying to destroy "your" respublica is a terrible wedge to drive between citizens. To use religion as the hammer with which to drive that wedge is even more terrible, and violates the very heart and soul of what the Respublica stands for.

Valete,

Cato

Caesar Maximo SPD

I think you need to re-read what I said. I made no mention of anyone moving on. I simply stated that to claim we are an independent sovereign nation is in my view - and others from across the whole spectrum of Nova Roma - bogus. It is misleading, romantic nonsense that has been a major contributing factor that has deflected us from achieving anything of substantive note, because we are too busy picking over the fluff of what we are in our collective navel. Frankly I don't care if individuals here want to believe that we are an independent sovereign nation, but I do care that an organization as small as ours stops pretending to be an elephant and accepts it is a mouse, and instead of claiming its tail is a large trunk, puts itself on a rigorous course of exercise to build itself up to be the biggest mouse in town. I am sure that doesn't have the grandeur of making wild claims about sovereignty and it pricks the delusional bubble of some and robs others of a claimed importance this phrase brings to Nova Roma, but its about time that Nova Roma woke up and lived in the reality of its own existence, size and potential (or lack thereof while we continue to pay lip service to a pipe dream), in order that we can formulate clear plans for the future development of this as a structure.

Read again Maxime. I did not cite this change as going hand in hand with wing nuts moving on. I did argue for a wing nut statement to be moved on however. I think this set the stage for more credibility for NR. It won't on its own create credibility, but the existence of this phrase is to me a direct and clear impediment to achieving that.

Vote for this lex and let Nova Roma move out of the wardrobe mentality of Narnia into the reality of the 21st century and build something relevant as a structure, instead of living in a fantasy land that has directly led to a lot of very silly statements about Nova Roman law taking precedence over macronational law, and judgments and policy decisions being taken based on this bogus claim.

I can believe I am the King of Siam. Amongst friends who believe I am too, then I might 'feel" that I was King. Amongst those whose friends who humour me, but don't believe I am, I am just a friend with a rather strange outlook on life. At the point I start posting this to the wider world, I am judged a lunatic. One consistent feature though is that whatever I "feel" or say, I am NOT the King of Siam. So to with Nova Roma. believe what you want as individuals but let us not paint Nova Roma with the brush of imbecility by making these claims.

Citizens - vote yes to this lex.

Optime vale

From: QFabiusMaxmi@...
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 5:06 PM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Against the Attack on Nova Roma's Sovereignty



Bravo Vedius!

I love Caesar like a brother, but I disagree with him that our problems
would be less if the dysfunctional delusional people here would move on. The
Sovereignty Clause did not attract the wing-nuts, an on-line organization


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