Sempronia Sabina Iulio Sabino Crasso S.P.D.

What an incredible coincidence! It must have been such a long wait for you. Would you happen to live in Britain too?

Vale optime,
L. Sempronia Sabina

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "iulius_crassus" <iulius_crassus@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Sempronia Sabina!
>
> My name is T. Iulius Sabinus Crassus. I turned eighteen two days ago. On the very same day I received an e-mail saying that I'd been granted citizenship in Nova Roma. The same as for you, it's truly a wonderful birthday present I wait for five years.
> I'm glad to meet you here. Wonderful coincidence!
>
> Vale bene,
> T. Iulius Sabinus Crassus
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Sempronia Sabina" <skyandwaves@> wrote:
>
> > My name is L. Sempronia Sabina. I turned eighteen two days ago. On the very same day I received an e-mail saying that I'd been granted citizenship in Nova Roma. It's truly a wonderful birthday present.
> >
> > I'd like to greet other fellow citizens of Nova Roma and look forward to knowing you all. I live in Britain, and I love everything about the Roman world, though my particular interest would be the Latin language.
> >
> > Salvete bene,
> > L. Sempronia Sabina
> >
>

Sempronia Sabina Marcio Crispo S.P.D.

Thank you very much for recommending the list! I'll take a look at it.

Vale bene,
L. Sempronia Sabina

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "GAIUS MARCIUS CRISPUS" <jbshr1pwa@...> wrote:
>
>
> C Marcius Crispus L Semproniae Sabinae S.P.D.
>
> Welcome Sabinae. I am so pleased to hear we have another citizen in
> Britannia. I hope that you will enjoy finding your way around the
> various lists that exist, as I am sure there will be one or more that
> specialises in topics that will interest you.
>
> May I also suggest that you attach your name to the Britannia mailing
> list which can be found here:-
>
> Britannia-Provincia-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <Britannia-Provincia-subscribe@yahoogroups.com>
>
> Although this list is very quiet, there are several new Brits around,
> and it would be good to get you all talking, and hopefully meeting up.
>
> Vale optime
> Crispus
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Sempronia Sabina Tulliae Scholasticae S.P.D.

Thanks for the offer. I'm indeed very much interested in your online course. I've been learning Latin on my own for a few years and having formal lessons for the past months, but I always appreciate extra help. I'd particularly like to improve my reading fluency and expand my vocabulary, and I don't mind working hard. (In fact, I wouldn't consider learning Latin as "work".) Can you please provide me with the details of how I may join the classes?

Vale optime,
L. Sempronia Sabina

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Tullia Scholastica" <fororom@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > A. Tullia Scholastica L. Semproniae Sabinae quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque
> > bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
> >
> >
> > Salvete omnes!
> >
> > My name is L. Sempronia Sabina. I turned eighteen two days ago.
> >
> > ATS: Happy birthday! Welcome to Nova Roma!
> >
> >
> > On the very same day I received an e-mail saying that I'd been granted
> > citizenship in Nova Roma. It's truly a wonderful birthday present.
> >
> > ATS: Yes, it is.
> >
> > I'd like to greet other fellow citizens of Nova Roma and look forward to
> > knowing you all. I live in Britain, and I love everything about the Roman
> > world, though my particular interest would be the Latin language.
> >
> > ATS: As you may have gathered, I am the chief Latin teacher here, and one
> > of several fine Latinists. We teach five Latin classes online (free), which
> > we are just finishing up at present, so I have been immersed in exam
> > correction and posting of grades as well as some personal matters. We teach
> > Latin by two different methods, the traditional one, for which we use the
> > Wheelock text, and an assimilation one, for which we use the Desessard Assimil
> > one. The former is more geared to reading Latin, though I add some spoken
> > Latin, while the latter is geared toward producing fluency in written and
> > spoken Latin. Both involve work; no one is going to learn anything by keeping
> > the book closed on the desk and watching sports games or whatever. We lose a
> > lot of students who cannot keep up, but those who survive have reaped the
> > benefit of courses created respectively by a well-known and highly respected
> > European Latinist, Avitus, and by his best student, yours truly. If you are
> > interested in registering for one of the courses, please let me know. The
> > text for the Grammatica Latina (traditional method, English only) courses is
> > Wheelock¹s Latin, by Frederic Wheelock, revised by R. LaFleur; that for the
> > Sermo Latinus (assimilation method) ones is Le Latin Sans Peine, by Clement
> > Desessard. It is also available in Italian, and in any case has been
> > translated into both English and Spanish for the benefit of any students who
> > cannot read either French or Spanish. These courses are taught in both
> > English and Spanish. This year the surviving so-called English group in the
> > introductory course consisted of two Americans, one Frenchman, one Austrian,
> > one Italian, one person with a Germanic name residing in Spain, and a couple
> > of Russians. We have had Israelis, Australians, Britons, Canadians, and many
> > others, as well as many Spaniards and Latin Americans.
> >
> > Inasmuch as the courses are still technically in session (one class is
> > working on the final exam, one is awaiting my correction of their final, and
> > another two are just collecting their exam grades, with course grades yet to
> > be computed; the other is finished, but the site is not prepared), we cannot
> > admit anyone yet; however, once the remaining exams are done, we should be
> > able to accept new students fairly quickly. All students MUST have the
> > textbook in hand before the start of class in September.
> >
> > We expect to add another teacher this year, and may be able to offer the
> > Rudimenta Latina course, which is not strictly a language course, but one
> > dealing with the background of Latin and some of its history.
> >
> > Salvete bene,
> > L. Sempronia Sabina
> >
> > Vale, et valete.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Salvete omnes!

Whoops. I meant "valete bene". Sorry about that.

Thanks for all the kind comments! I am very happy to be part of the community. I hope all old and new citizens will enjoy Nova Roma as much.

Valete optime,
L. Sempronia Sabina

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Sempronia Sabina" <skyandwaves@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete omnes!
>
> My name is L. Sempronia Sabina. I turned eighteen two days ago. On the very same day I received an e-mail saying that I'd been granted citizenship in Nova Roma. It's truly a wonderful birthday present.
>
> I'd like to greet other fellow citizens of Nova Roma and look forward to knowing you all. I live in Britain, and I love everything about the Roman world, though my particular interest would be the Latin language.
>
> Salvete bene,
> L. Sempronia Sabina
>

EDICTUM I. MAGISTRI ARANEARII CN. CORNELII LENTULI DE EDICTIS PRIORIBUS

Edict No 1 of Magister Aranearius Cn. Cornelius Lentulus about previous edicts


I. I hereby announce the renewal of all previous edicts of my predecessor, M. Lucretius Agricola, Magister Aranearius.

II. I publicly and solemnly declare, announce and proudly recognize the work of highest quality done by my predecessor, Magister Aranearius M. Lucretius Agricola, and my wish to continue to work the way he set up as an example.

III. I publicly and solemnly declare and announce the gratitude of the Nova Roman people toward M. Lucretius Agricola, and I ask him to continue to help the official website of our republic with his advice and contributions in the future, too.


Datum a.d. XIV Kal. Quin. P. Memmio K. Buteone (II) cos. MMDCCLXIII AUC
Given on 19th June, in the consulship of P. Memmius and K. Buteo (2nd time), 2763 AUC.


CN. CORNELIVS LENTVLVS
MAGISTER ARANEARIVS
NOVAE ROMAE

EDICTUM II. MAGISTRI ARANEARII CN. CORNELII LENTULI DE SCRIBIS CREANDIS

Edict No 2 of Magister Aranearius Cn. Cornelius Lentulus about appointment of scribes


I.1. I hereby appoint M. Cornelius Gualterus Graecus as scribe to the Magister Aranearius.

I.2. His duties are the following:

I.2.a. revision and correction of the English articles assigned to him by the Magister Aranearius,
I.2.b. helping and advising the Magister Aranearius in specific tasks occasionally assigned to him by the Magister Aranearius,

I.3. Oath of office is required.


II.1. I hereby appoint C. Cocceius Spinula as scribe to the Magister Aranearius.

II.2. His duties are the following:

II.2.a. revision and correction of all of the Portuguese and Spanish articles,
II.2.b. translation of English articles into Portugese and Spanish, and
translation of Portuguese and Spanish articles into English assigned to
him by the Magister Aranearius,
II.2.c. helping and advising the Magister Aranearius in specific tasks, occasionally assigned to him by the Magister Aranearius,

II.3. Oath of office is required and in his native tongue, too.

III. This edict takes effect immediately.


Datum a.d. XIV Kal. Quin. P. Memmio K. Buteone (II) cos. MMDCCLXIII AUC
Given on 19th June, in the consulship of P. Memmius and K. Buteo (2nd time), 2763 AUC.


CN. CORNELIVS LENTVLVS
MAGISTER ARANEARIVS
NOVAE ROMAE

M. Hortensia Gn. Cornelio spd;
your predecessor M. Lucretius Agricola did a fabulous job & patiently helped and taught a lot of people, including myself to use and contribute to the wiki.
He still works and helps people all the time ; and from what I see Lentule you are doing a wonderful job!
optime vale
Maior

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cn. Cornelius Lentulus" <cn_corn_lent@...> wrote:
>
> EDICTUM I. MAGISTRI ARANEARII CN. CORNELII LENTULI DE EDICTIS PRIORIBUS
>
> Edict No 1 of Magister Aranearius Cn. Cornelius Lentulus about previous edicts
>
>
> I. I hereby announce the renewal of all previous edicts of my predecessor, M. Lucretius Agricola, Magister Aranearius.
>
> II. I publicly and solemnly declare, announce and proudly recognize the work of highest quality done by my predecessor, Magister Aranearius M. Lucretius Agricola, and my wish to continue to work the way he set up as an example.
>
> III. I publicly and solemnly declare and announce the gratitude of the Nova Roman people toward M. Lucretius Agricola, and I ask him to continue to help the official website of our republic with his advice and contributions in the future, too.
>
>
> Datum a.d. XIV Kal. Quin. P. Memmio K. Buteone (II) cos. MMDCCLXIII AUC
> Given on 19th June, in the consulship of P. Memmius and K. Buteo (2nd time), 2763 AUC.
>
>
> CN. CORNELIVS LENTVLVS
> MAGISTER ARANEARIVS
> NOVAE ROMAE
>

C. Maria Caeca Cn. Cornelio Lentulo S. P. D.

I find it heart warming that your first edict is one of praise and thanks to your predecessor! Of course, I also know that such gracious and courteous behavior is very typical of you ...and, as always, I am charmed and so very happy that you are a member of this organization.

Having been rescued by Senator Agricola on more than one occasion, I also offer my gratitude to him ...with the hope that he won't go far away, (or away at all).

Vale et valete bene,
C. Maria Caeca

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica L. Semproniae Sabinae quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque
> bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
>
>
> Sempronia Sabina Tulliae Scholasticae S.P.D.
>
> Thanks for the offer. I'm indeed very much interested in your online course.
>
> ATS: There are five of them...maybe six, if we can offer Rudimenta.
>
>
> I've been learning Latin on my own for a few years and having formal lessons
> for the past months, but I always appreciate extra help. I'd particularly like
> to improve my reading fluency and expand my vocabulary, and I don't mind
> working hard. (In fact, I wouldn't consider learning Latin as "work".)
>
> ATS: LOL! Neither do I, but some of our students do seem to think that
> it is a chore...
>
>
> Can you please provide me with the details of how I may join the classes?
>
>
> ATS: First, select the course you wish to take. Three of the five Latin
> courses are entry-level (Grammatica Latina I, Sermo Latinus I, and Sermo
> Latinus I & II combined), then obtain the text for the course you wish to
> take. Many college bookstores in the US carry Wheelock, which we use in the
> traditional-method Grammatica courses, and I suspect that the same is true in
> other English-speaking countries. Wheelock also has a website, which I think
> is <wheelockslatin.com>, but I am not good with URLs, so may be wrong. The
> Assimil text (French version) is available online, but one must have a fast
> connection to download it and the mandatory sound files. The Italian version
> may still be available via Amazon or some similar sites, but is not cheap by
> any stretch of the imagination. The French Assimil is out of print, and the
> publisher and bookstores will try to foist the horrible replacement on the
> unsuspecting buyer, so beware! The author we use is Clement Desessard, NOT I.
> Duclos-Filippi, who could not decline a Latin noun if her life depended on it.
>
> When you have selected the course you wish and have the text, let me know.
> At present only one course is fully finished, but the site is not prepared as
> we must move the students to the intermediate class, which is still in
> session, and do other site preparation; we use a software package independent
> of Yahoo and other mailing lists. I will announce our readiness to register
> new students here and on the Latin sodalitas list, and perhaps elsewhere if I
> am allowed to do so. There are places in NR where Latin seems to be
> unwelcome.
>
> Vale optime,
> L. Sempronia Sabina
>
> Vale et valete optimé!
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com> , "A.
> Tullia Scholastica" <fororom@...> wrote:
>> >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > A. Tullia Scholastica L. Semproniae Sabinae quiritibus, sociis,
>>> peregrinisque
>>> > > bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Salvete omnes!
>>> > >
>>> > > My name is L. Sempronia Sabina. I turned eighteen two days ago.
>>> > >
>>> > > ATS: Happy birthday! Welcome to Nova Roma!
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > On the very same day I received an e-mail saying that I'd been granted
>>> > > citizenship in Nova Roma. It's truly a wonderful birthday present.
>>> > >
>>> > > ATS: Yes, it is.
>>> > >
>>> > > I'd like to greet other fellow citizens of Nova Roma and look forward to
>>> > > knowing you all. I live in Britain, and I love everything about the >>>

Roman

>>> > > world, though my particular interest would be the Latin language.
>>> > >
>>> > > ATS: As you may have gathered, I am the chief Latin teacher here,
>>> and one
>>> > > of several fine Latinists. We teach five Latin classes online (free),
>>> which
>>> > > we are just finishing up at present, so I have been immersed in exam
>>> > > correction and posting of grades as well as some personal matters. We
>>> teach
>>> > > Latin by two different methods, the traditional one, for which we use

the

>>> > > Wheelock text, and an assimilation one, for which we use the Desessard
>>> Assimil
>>> > > one. The former is more geared to reading Latin, though I add some
>>> spoken
>>> > > Latin, while the latter is geared toward producing fluency in written

and

>>> > > spoken Latin. Both involve work; no one is going to learn anything by
>>> keeping
>>> > > the book closed on the desk and watching sports games or whatever. We
>>> lose a
>>> > > lot of students who cannot keep up, but those who survive have reaped

the

>>> > > benefit of courses created respectively by a well-known and highly
>>> respected
>>> > > European Latinist, Avitus, and by his best student, yours truly. If you

are

>>> > > interested in registering for one of the courses, please let me know.

The

>>> > > text for the Grammatica Latina (traditional method, English only)
>>> courses is
>>> > > Wheelock¹s Latin, by Frederic Wheelock, revised by R. LaFleur; that
>>> for the
>>> > > Sermo Latinus (assimilation method) ones is Le Latin Sans Peine, by
>>> Clement
>>> > > Desessard. It is also available in Italian, and in any case has been
>>> > > translated into both English and Spanish for the benefit of any students

who

>>> > > cannot read either French or Spanish. These courses are taught in both
>>> > > English and Spanish. This year the surviving so-called English group in

the

>>> > > introductory course consisted of two Americans, one Frenchman, one
>>> Austrian,
>>> > > one Italian, one person with a Germanic name residing in Spain, and a
>>> couple
>>> > > of Russians. We have had Israelis, Australians, Britons, Canadians, and
>>> many
>>> > > others, as well as many Spaniards and Latin Americans.
>>> > >
>>> > > Inasmuch as the courses are still technically in session (one class

is

>>> > > working on the final exam, one is awaiting my correction of their final,

and

>>> > > another two are just collecting their exam grades, with course grades
>>> yet to
>>> > > be computed; the other is finished, but the site is not prepared), we
>>> cannot
>>> > > admit anyone yet; however, once the remaining exams are done, we should

be

>>> > > able to accept new students fairly quickly. All students MUST have the
>>> > > textbook in hand before the start of class in September.
>>> > >
>>> > > We expect to add another teacher this year, and may be able to offer

the

>>> > > Rudimenta Latina course, which is not strictly a language course, but

one

>>> > > dealing with the background of Latin and some of its history.
>>> > >
>>> > > Salvete bene,
>>> > > L. Sempronia Sabina
>>> > >
>>> > > Vale, et valete.
>>> > >
>>> > >

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

C. Maria Caeca Omnibusque in foro S. P. D.

First, let me get the disclaimers out of the way. I present here, for your
reading pleasure (or not), my *personal* views, *only*. I make no claims to
authority in anything, let alone such a complex and potentially inflammatory
topic ...and I present my views partly in answer to a question raised a few
days ago, here, on the ML, by the honored Albucius Consul, and partly
because, well, I find the topic of interest, and hope that what I say might
spark some wholesome discussion.

In addition, it is not my intention to offend anyone, especially in *this*
area! What I say applies only to me, and I fully understand that it may
have no relevance to anyone else. Still ...perhaps it will, or some part of
it will ...and it is in the hope of finding a bit of common ground as a
starting point that I continue.

Albucius asked, (and I didn't retain the post so I can't quote it exactly,
whether we thought the gods took an interest in human affairs. (this was
with reference to the ongoing discussions of the World cup).

As usual, my mind found a side path, and followed it ...and I offer, with
respect and not a little diffidence, the results of my rambles.

For me, the short answer to the consul's question is "yes" ...but I can't
even begin to prove or defend that answer. It comes from purely subjective
experiences, inklings, feelings, perhaps desires ...perhaps the need to know
that someone, somewhere "out thee" with more power than I, and greater
vision than I, and a broader perspective than I, cares about what happens to
me.

I have felt, for some time, that it is part of man's (inclusive of all
humanity, not gender specific), nature to have the desire and the need to
worship: to look beyond himself to something greater ...something which can
be adored, is sometimes feared and appeased, but which must require respect.
In other words, there is something in us, very, very close to our core,
which must "look up" or out. Perhaps it is as simple as that we have an
essential need to be a par of something greater than ourselves ..something
that makes sense of our Universe, it's seemingly random, mindless and
heartless events, and our lives ...something, in short, that reassures us
that we are not some sort of flotsam tossed on an endless ocean of random
happenstance. Perhaps it is the knowledge embedded into every soul that
there is something beyond us ...encompassing us ...something magnificent,
and awesomely beautiful with which we can, with will and work, establish
some sort of contact and eventual union. Perhaps, deep within the recesses
of our beings we hear the voices of the gods (define that as you will)
speaking to us, and drawing us to them. I do not know ...but I do know
that, even at a time when I thought I hated all Divinity ...when my grief
was so deep and so bitter that if I could have I would have cursed the god I
then worshiped ...I could not, literally, because there was something in me
that *knew* that somehow, though I could not see it, my beloved sister's
death fit into a mosaic that, could I but see it, would make sense.

some years ago (goodness, almost 25 years ago!) I attended a service held by
our metaphysical church every Halloween; a memorial service, of sorts, to
honor our beloved who had passed on before us. I had attended them before,
and found them moving ...but this was the year of my husband's death ...so
this service was much, much more difficult for me.

part of the service involved a period of meditation and reflection ...and I
found myself belaboring every harsh word, every thoughtless or insensitive
act, of my marriage, and, well, severely chastising myself, to put it
mildly. I don't know from where the following understanding came ...from my
husband, from one of the gods, or from my own mind, forced, finally, to be
still and look, quietly, within ...but I did understand several things, that
I have retained, and found valuable.

I cannot prove, empirically that the gods exist ...it is far beyond my
capability, and I am not sure it is within the capabilities of the greatest
mathematicians or scientists we have. so, I will not know, for certain,
until I die whether A. there is an after life of any sort, or B. that the
gods exist, or C. *which* gods exist.

that being so, I can either deny my need for belief in something greater
than myself, and become a materialist (which would be entirely alien to me),
or I can choose (or create) a belief system, and, in so doing, devote myself
to it wholeheartedly ...and give little no no consideration to whether I
will be proved "right" or "wrong". If I am right, I will fid out upon my
death. If I am wrong, I will find out .upon my death. But until that
happens, unless I make a choice, and then abide by that choice, and give it
all that I have ...I will find myself wandering in a sort of fog riddled
wilderness, where nothing is clear, and where even the questions seem to
slip though my fingers.

I realized at that point that, for me, *what* I believe is less important,
in some ways than *that* I believe. Now, in saying that I do not mean to
imply that "any old belief system will do". Nor do I think it acceptable
for me to "change up" every so often ...or to incorporate a little bit of
this, and a little bit of that, into some sort of personal "system" that has
more to do with my ego and my comfort zone than with anything else.

I cam to the Religio Romans ultimately because, in some ways, that was where
I started, until cultural an familial imperatives distracted me ...and, in
so doing, I am at peace ..with my gods and with myself.

Do I think the gods even notice C. Maria Caeca? Well ...I can't prove it
..but the very fact that I have, with all the stupid things I've done, and
all the risks I've taken, and with the dangers inherent in being an
independent blind female alone in a very large and hostile city, stayed
alive and mostly injury free ..leads me to think that yes, perhaps they do.

I hope that posting this, here, on the ML, instead of on the RR list is not
inappropriate, and I also hope that I have neither bored or offended anyone.
If I have, I apologize.

Respectfully,
C. Maria Caeca
Sacerdos Vestalis et Camilla

Reminder from:		Nova-Roma Yahoo! Group
Title:		Reminder Ludi Apollinares
Date:		Saturday June 19, 2010
Time:		12:00 pm - 1:00 pm
Repeats:		This event repeats every week until Friday July 9, 2010.
Location:		Ludi Apollinares
Notes:		Don't forget to be inspired and start your project for the Ludi honoring Apollo! http://www.novaroma.org/nr/MMDCCLXIII/Ludi_Apollinares
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M. Moravius Piscinus cultoribus Deorum et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit: nunc ades o coeptis, flava Minerva, nostris.

Hodie est ante diem XIII Kalendas Quinctilias; haec dies comitialis est: Minervae in Aventino; Sol introitum Cancro facit, tempestatem significat.

The Seventh Day of the Moon

Seventh after tenth is lucky both to set
The vine in earth, and take and tame the steer,
And fix the leashes to the warp

~ P. Vergilius Mauro, Geiorgic I.287-289 ff.


"Come, golden-haired Minerva, and favor the task I have begun." ~ Ovidius Naso, Fasti 6.652

A festival for Minerva is held today in celebration of the restoration and rededication of Her temple on the Aventine Hill. The temple was originally built between 492-484 BCE and dedicated on 19 March.


AUC 584 / 169 BCE: Prodigies and Portents

"I am quite aware that the spirit of indifference which in these days makes men in general refuse to believe that the Gods warn us through portents, also prevents any portents whatever from being either made public or recorded in the annals. But as I narrate the events of ancient times I find myself possessed by the ancient spirit, and a religious feeling constrains me to regard the matters which those wise and thoughtful men considered deserving of their attention as worthy of a place in my pages. At Anagnia two portents were announced this year: a fiery torch had been seen in the sky and a cow had spoken; the cow was being fed at the public cost. At Menturnae also the appearance of the sky was as though it was on fire. At Reate there was a shower of stones. At Cumae the Apollo in the citadel shed tears for three days and three nights. Two temple custodians in the City of Rome announced portents; one stated that a crested snake had been seen by several persons in the Temple of Fortune; the other declared that two distinct portents had appeared in the Temple of Fortuna Primigenia on the Quirinal, a palm tree sprang up in the temple precinct and a rain of blood had fallen in the daytime. There were two portents which were not taken into consideration, one because it occurred on private, the other on foreign soil. The former was reported by T. Marcius Figulus, a palm tree had sprung up in the inner court of his house; the latter by L. Atreus who stated that in his house at Fregellae a spear which he had bought for his soldier son was in flames for more than two hours in broad daylight, but no part of it was consumed by the fire. The Decemviri consulted the Sacred Books about those portents which affected the State and gave the names of the deities to be propitiated. They directed that the expiatory sacrifices should consist of forty of the larger victims and be performed by the consuls; all the magistrates were to join in offering similar sacrifices at every shrine; there were to be special intercessions and the people were to wear chaplets of bay. These directions were carefully carried out." ~ Titus Livius 43.13


After Augustus prodigies and portents began to be recorded in the annals once more. One example, from the time of Caligula, is found in Suetonius. Two examples are found in Tacitus from the time of Nero.

AUC 794 / 41 CE: Preceding the Death of Caligula

"The approaching murder of (Caligula) was foretold by many prodigies. The statue of Jupiter at Olympia, which he had ordered to be taken to pieces and moved to Rome, suddenly uttered such a peal of laughter that the scaffoldings collapsed and the workmen took to their heels; and at once a man called Cassius turned up, who declared that he had been bidden in a dream to sacrifice a bull to Jupiter. The Capitol at Capua was struck by lightning on the Ides of March, and also the room of the doorkeeper of the Palace at Rome. Some inferred from the latter omen that danger was threatened to the owner at the hands of his guards; and from the former, the murder of a second distinguished personage, such as had taken place long before on that same day. The soothsayer Sulla too, when Gaius consulted him about his horoscope, declared that inevitable death was close at hand. The lots of Fortune at Antium warned him to beware of Cassius, and he accordingly ordered the death of Cassius Longinus, who was at the time proconsul of Asia, forgetting that the family name of Chaerea was Cassius. The day before he was killed he dreamt that he stood in heaven beside the throne of Jupiter and that the God struck him with the toe of his right foot and hurled him to earth. Some things which had happened on that very day shortly before he was killed were also regarded as portents. As he was sacrificing, he was sprinkled with the blood of a flamingo, and the pantomimic actor Mnester danced a tragedy which the tragedian Neoptolemus had acted years before during the games at which Philip king of the Macedonians was assassinated. In a farce called "Laureolus," in which the chief actor falls as he is making his escape and vomits blood, several understudies so vied with one another in giving evidence of their proficiency that the stage swam in blood. A nocturnal performance besides was rehearsing, in which scenes from the lower world were represented by Egyptians and Aethiopians." ~ C. Suetonius Tranquilius, Gaius 57


AUC 811 / 58 CE: The Ficus Ruminilus began to whither

"That same year, the fact that the tree in the Comitium, which 840 years before had sheltered the infancy of Romulus and Remus, was impaired by the decay of its boughs and by the withering of its stem, was accounted a portent, until it began to renew its life with fresh shoots." ~ P. Cornelius Tacitus, Annales 13.58


AUC 812 /59: Following Nero's execution of his mother Agrippina

"Still there was a marvelous rivalry among the nobles in decreeing thanksgivings at all the shrines, and the celebration with annual games of Minerva's festival, as the day on which the plot had been discovered; also, that a golden image of Minerva with a statue of the emperor by its side should be set up in the Senate-house, and that Agrippina's birthday should be classed among the inauspicious days. Thrasea Paetus, who had been used to pass over previous flatteries in silence or with brief assent, then walked out of the Senate, thereby imperiling himself, without communicating to the other senators any impulse towards freedom.

"There occurred too a thick succession of portents, which meant nothing. A woman gave birth to a snake, and another was killed by a thunderbolt in her husband's embrace. Then the sun was suddenly darkened and the fourteen districts of the city were struck by lightning. All this happened quite without any providential design; so much so, that for many subsequent years Nero prolonged his reign and his crimes." ~ P. Cornelius Tacitus, Annales 14.12


For today's thought we look at the Golden Sayings of Pythagoras 21-23:

"There are among men many sorts of reasonings, good and bad; admire them not too easily, nor reject them. But if falsehoods be advanced, hear them with mildness, and arm thyself with patience."

Salvete omnes,
--------------------------------------------ENGLISH VERSION

"I, Gaius Cocceius Spinula (Sebastião Braz de Oliveira), do hereby solemnly
swear to uphold the honour of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best
interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Gaius Cocceius Spinula swear to honour the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings,
and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

I, Gaius Cocceius Spinula swear to uphold and
defend the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear
never to act in a way that would threaten its status as the State
Religion.
I, Gaius Cocceius Spinula swear to protect and
defend the Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Gaius Cocceius Spinula further swear to
fulfill the obligations and responsibilities of the office of scribe to the Magister Aranearius to the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the
Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favour, do I
accept the position of scribe to the Magister Aranearius and all the
rights, privileges, obligations, and responsibilities attendant
thereto."


--------------------------------------------
LATIN VERSION

"Ego, Gaius Cocceius Spinula,
hac re ipsa decus Novae Romae me defensurum, et semper
pro populo senatuque Novae Romae acturum esse sollemniter IVRO.


Ego, Gaius Cocceius Spinula, officio scribae magistri araneari
Novae Romae accepto, deos
deasque Romae in omnibus meae vitae publicae temporibus culturum, et
virtutes Romanas publica privataque vita me persecuturum esse IVRO.


Ego, Gaius Cocceius Spinula, Religioni Romanae me fauturum
et eam defensurum, et
numquam contra eius statum publicum me acturum esse, ne quid detrimenti
capiat IVRO.


Ego, Gaius Cocceius Spinula officiis muneris scribae magistri araneari me quam optime
functurum esse praeterea IVRO.


Meo civis Novae Romae honore, coram deis deabusque populi Romani, et
voluntate favoreque eorum, ego munus scribae magistri araneari
una cum iuribus,
privilegiis, muneribus et officiis comitantibus ACCIPIO."
--------------------------------------------
PORTUGUESE VERSION

Eu, Gaius Cocceius Spinula, juro solenemente defender a honra de Nova
Roma, e de

agir sempre em nome dos melhores interesses do povo e do Senado de Nova
Roma.



Como magistrado de Nova Roma, eu, Gaius Cocceius Spinula juro honrar os
Deuses e

Deusas de Roma nas minhas acções públicas, e praticar as Virtudes
Romanas na

minha vida pública e privada.



Eu, Gaius Cocceius Spinula, juro promover e defender a Religio Romana
como a

religião do Estado de Nova Roma, mais juro em como nunca agirei de forma
a

ameaçar o seu estatuto como a religião de Estado.



Eu, Gaius Cocceius Spinula, juro proteger e defender a constituição de
Nova

Roma.



Eu, Gaius Cocceius Spinula mais juro cumprir as obrigações e
responsabilidades

do cargo de escriba ao Magister Aranearius até ao limite das minhas capacidades.



Em nome da minha honra como cidadão de Nova Roma, e na presença dos
Deuses e

Deusas do povo Romano e através da sua vontade e favor, eu aceito o
cargo de

escriba ao Magister Aranearius e todos os seus direitos, privilégios, obrigações e
responsabilidades

inerentes ao mesmo.

--------------------------------------------

a.d. XIII Kal. Quin. P. Memmio K. Buteone (II) cos. MMDCCLXIII AUC

Valete bene,
C. Cocceius Spinula

Provincia Hispania, Lusitania

Praefectus Regionis Lusitaniae

Senior Scriba Censoris TIS




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

M. Moravius Piscinus Magister Collegium Augurum P. Memmio Albucio Quiritibus s. p. d.

This edictum is based on two false statements. The question posed in the auspicium was correct, as requested by the preciding magistrate, Consul K. Fabius Buteo, that the Comitia Centuria be called on the same date as the Comitia Populi, 24 June, not 23 June. The notation in the report of Sextilias rather than Quinctilias was an error in reporting, not in the auspicium. The auspices indicated approval of beginning the voting on 24 June and on no other date.

Consul Albucius is not the preciding magistrate for this election or for this month, he does not have the power of auspicium as he claims, and even if he did, he has no authority to take auspices for the preciding magistrate or to take his own without consulting with the Collegium Augurum first. His method of taking auspicium is under review by the Collegium Augurum because his past examples were seen as deficient and incorrect. He did not consult with the Collegium on this latest report, or report anything of it to the Collegium as required. Consul Albucius is once again acting in an illegal manner, contrary to the Constitution and previous instructions of the Collegium Augurum. His auspicium was nefas and is thus disallowed.

1. Therefore the assembly of the Comitia Centuria on 23 June will be contrary to the Constitution and the Lex de ration, and therefore is it illegal. Therefore I call for the Tribuni Plebis to impose intercessio.

2. No Custodes or Diribitores may participate in such nefarious elections held without proper auspices. Were they to do so they would contribute to the consul's nefarious action and thus pollute themselves. No magistrates elected under such nefarious circumstances may be inaugurated or recognized by the Comitia Curiata.

3. The repeated acts of impietas by Consul Albucius shall now have to come under review of the Collegium Augurum for threat they have posed to the Pax Deorum.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Publius Memmius Albucius <albucius_aoe@...> wrote:
>
>
> P. Memmius Albucius cos. Quiritibus s.d.
>
>
>
>
>
> Please find below the edict convening our next Comitia centuriata.
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------edict calling to order the comitia centuriata--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
> After due consultation of my colleague Fabius Buteo;
> In view of :
>
>
> the Constitution of Nova Roma, in its paragraph I.D. and III.B.;
>
> lex Fabia de ratione comitiorum centuriatorum modified by lex Curiatia Iulia;
>
> my edicta calling for candidates for the praetura issued first a.d. VII Idus 2763 auc (June 7) for the praetura minor (de petitione praeturae minoris) and second a.d. IV Idus 2763 auc (June 10) for the two seats of praetors (de petitione praeturae);
>
> my statement of the candidacies of a.d. XV Quint. 2763 auc (June 17) laid by the five following candidates: P. Ullerius Stephanus Venator, Q. Fabius Maximus, Ti. Galerius Paulinus, A. Tullia Scholastica, M. Hortensia Maior
>
>
>
> Considering that :
>
>
> the auspices were duly requested by the above mentioned edicts, for comitia centuriata "which will be convened on one of the following possible dates, among which the appointed augur is hereby required to propose the most appropriate for the Gods: June 24th or June 25th or June 26th or June 27th.";-
>
> these edicta added: "If, for any reason, an augur may not be appointed for these auspices before next June 14th or if, similarly, the auspices could not been taken and reported to the presiding consul no later than June 18th, the presiding consul will take himself the auspices for this session of the comitia centuriata and thus define the most appropriate date for the comitia."
>
>
>
> In view of the auspices taken by augur Moravius and stated by him as favorable ("aves admittunt"), and reported to the presiding consul on Idus Iunii 2763 auc.;
> Considering that:
>
>
> however, the question asked to the gods by the augur ("to pose the question as to whether He would approve holding the Comitia Centuriata on the same dates as the Comitia Populi, with voting beginning on a. d. VIII Kal. Sext. ") was not the question for which the augurs have been invited to proceed and that, in addition, the reference to the kalends of "sextilis" is obviously an error, the mentioned comitia populi being called for a vote ante diem Kal. Quintiles;
>
> these auguria may not be considered as being formally exempt of any vice, that would make them void and, with them, the convened session. Consul Memmius has therefore taken additional auspices a.d. XIV Kal. Quint. (June 18) 2763 auc, submitting the gods the informations contained by the edicta de petitione praeturae, on an agenda which may include both electoral and legislation items;
>
> the gods brought, through these additional consular auspices, a favorable answer;
>
>
>
> Stating, last, the material impossibility, specially considering the date of resignation of both former praetors which was unpredictable, to join the proceedings of both called comitia (tributi and centuriata),
>
>
>
> Quod bonum felixque sit populo romano quiritium,
> I edict the following and referimus ad vos, Quirites :
>
>
>
> Art. 1 : The Comitia centuriata is hereby convened for a session. The decision of its centuries is required, in the frame of this session, on the agenda presented in the relatio presented in the articles 3 and 5 below ;
>
>
>
> Art. 2 : The time table of the session is the following one, every hour being expressed for Rome, except in the table below:
> 2.1. Session
> Beginning: 17:45 hour, a.d. IX Kal. Quint. (June 23) ; end: sunset pridie nonas Quint.. (July. 6)
> 2.2. Contio
> Beginning: 18:00 hour, a.d. IX Kal. Quint. (June 23) ; end: 18:01 hour, a.d. V Kal. Quint. (June 27)
> 2.3. Vote
> Beginning: 18:30 hour, a.d. V Kal. Quint. (June 27) ;
> End: for the legislative proposals : 18:31 hour, a.d. VI nonas Quint. (July 2) ; for the magisterial elections : 18:31 hour, pridie nonas Quint. (July 6).
>
>
> The comitia, and therefore the vote, shall be suspended a.d. III nonas Quint. (July 5 – nefastus dies). Every vote cast on this day will be considered as void.
>
>
>
>
> Art. 3 : The relatio ('agenda') of the present session is the following one:
>
>
>
> A. Legislative proposals
>
> Item I – Constitution – Move and rewording of the "religious paragraph" of par. VI.A. to par. I (ex. "Blasphemy clause")
> Item II – Constitution – Date of entry in office of the magistrates of the Plebs - Rewording of the introduction of paragraph IV.A.
> Item III – Oath and officers/magistrates responsibility – new lex de iusiurando
> Item IV – Entry in office of magistrates and officers – conditions
> Item V – Legal force of the edicts in the time
> Item VI et sq. – Possible additional items
>
>
>
> B. Elections for praetors
>
>
>
> The candidates allowed to compete for the two available seats of praetors are the following ones, in the chronological order of the reception of the candidacy :
>
>
> P. Ullerius Stephanus Venator, citizen since Kal. Quint. 2751 auc (July 1, 1998), album civium file at: http://www.novaroma.org/civitas/album?id=252
>
> Q. Fabius Maximus, citizen since Kal. Sext. 2751 auc (August 1, 1998), album civium file at: http://www.novaroma.org/civitas/album?id=10
>
>
> Ti. Galerius Paulinus, citizen since a.d. XII Kal. Feb. 2755 auc (Jan. 21, 2002), album civium file at: http://www.novaroma.org/civitas/album?id=3443
>
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica, citizen since Idus Oct. 2756 auc (Oct. 15, 2003), album civium file at: http://www.novaroma.org/civitas/album?id=6596
>
>
> M. Hortensia Maior, citizen since a.d. XIII Iun. 2756 auc (May 20, 2003), album civium file at: http://www.novaroma.org/civitas/album?id=5832
>
>
>
> Art. 4 : M. Hortensia Maior is currently reus in a trial whose claim has been laid after her declaration of candidacy. This citizen may legally run for praetor in the present state of Novaroman laws.
>
>
>
> In order to watch to both dignitas and auctoritas of the praetura, the presiding magistrate, if Hortensia were to be elected praetor during these comitia, will suspend the proclamation of her election until the decision of the concerned tribunal. In case of a condemnation, he would veto her election, considering that such condemnation does not allow the concerned civis to assume the praetura in normal conditions. In case of a discharge, he would be proclaim the result.
>
>
>
> Art. 5 : The items mentioned in the article 3 may be completed before the opening of the contio by additional items or by attached documents, available from next June 23rd on, for an easier reading, in the Comitia centuriata files section, folder "CC June 2763 auc", at (copy-paste this link if any problem):
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NovaRomaComitiaCenturiata/files/CC%20June%202763%20auc/
>
> ------------------------------------------------------end of the edict-----------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Thanks for your attention, Quirites. Have all good comitia and valete omnes.
>
>
>
> P. Memmius Albucius cos.
> _________________________________________________________________
> La boîte mail NOW Génération vous permet de réunir toutes vos boîtes mail dans Hotmail !
> http://www.windowslive.fr/hotmail/nowgeneration/
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Salve Caeca, honored Sacerdos...

I too, am a great believer that we can have moments of Mystic
transport in our lives, which connect us with the Holy Powers.

I also believe that They do notice everything within Their areas of
interest, and may make some sort of commentary if so moved...

A good post, but I admonish you to be more self-confident. You write
well and very reasonably.

In amicitia et fides - Venator

C. Petronius M. Piscino s.p.d.,

In what measure a veto by tribunes of the Plebs is needed? If consul Albucius does not have the fasces on this month of June, obviously and legally, he is not able to convene the Comitia on June 23.

Otpime vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
tribunus Plebis Arcoiali scribebat
a. d. XIII Kalendas Quintiles P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.

Definitely! Hire that man immediately! LOL
 
MVM


<<--- On Fri, 6/18/10, C.Maria Caeca <c.mariacaeca@...> wrote:

C. Maria Caeca Aquilio Rotae Omnibusque in foro S. P. D.

I do believe our esteemed Governor (Provincia Austrorientalis) is auditioning for the play by play broadcaster at the next Ludi! I think he'll get that part, too ...or at least, a major "guest appearance, with Julia Aquila and me. Hmmm ...

Valete Bene,
CMC, smiling with mischief in he heart!>>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

<<--- On Sat, 6/19/10, petronius_dexter <jfarnoud94@...> wrote:

C. Petronius M. Piscino s.p.d.,

In what measure a veto by tribunes of the Plebs is needed? If consul Albucius does not have the fasces on this month of June, obviously and legally, he is not able to convene the Comitia on June 23.>>
 
 
It is my understanding that Consul Quintilianus does for the month of June, so Consul Albucius cannot do so this month. He has to wait until July, in which case he has plenty of time to request an auspice from the Collegium Augurum.
 
Maxima Valeria Messallina
Tribuna Plebis




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

C. Petronius Messallinae s.p.d.,

> It is my understanding that Consul Quintilianus does for the month of June, so Consul Albucius cannot do so this month. He has to wait until July, in which case he has plenty of time to request an auspice from the Collegium Augurum.

Yes, I agree with you. But what about comitia to be convened on june 24 according to the auspicia and the wish of the consul K. Fabius?

I suspect a very strange way of working between our consuls...

Optime vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
tribunus Plebis Arcoiali scribebat
a. d. XIII Kalendas Quintiles P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.

C. Petronius T. Sabino s.p.d.,

> Well, probably we will meet together in the Underworld where:
> Dexter: will try to explain to Dis Pater that the best name for him to use is the Gaelic one, Orcus.

As written by Julius Caesar in his books de bello Gallico, the Gauls affirm that they are all descended from a common father Dis Pater (BG: VI,18). But I am not sure that Orcus was his Gaelic name. However, I am ready to convince, in the Underworld, Dis Pater to chose as unic name Orcus, if I have the right to come back in our world after my katabasis with Sibylla of Cumae as guide.

Vale amice.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
a. d. XIII Kalendas Quintiles P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.

Sempronia Sabina Mariae Caecae omnibusque S.P.D.

Thanks for sharing with us such a deep, insightful thought. I too find it very hard deciding whether a God or gods exist, and am settled in the middle way at the moment. However, I do believe that my life is governed by virtue and goodness. Whether there is a greater being watching over me, I believe that it is my ultimate goal to live virtuously. I don't ask for any reward for it; doing what I believe in is reward enough.

Valete bene,
L. Sempronia Sabina

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "C.Maria Caeca" <c.mariacaeca@...> wrote:
>
> C. Maria Caeca Omnibusque in foro S. P. D.
>
> First, let me get the disclaimers out of the way. I present here, for your
> reading pleasure (or not), my *personal* views, *only*. I make no claims to
> authority in anything, let alone such a complex and potentially inflammatory
> topic ...and I present my views partly in answer to a question raised a few
> days ago, here, on the ML, by the honored Albucius Consul, and partly
> because, well, I find the topic of interest, and hope that what I say might
> spark some wholesome discussion.
>
> In addition, it is not my intention to offend anyone, especially in *this*
> area! What I say applies only to me, and I fully understand that it may
> have no relevance to anyone else. Still ...perhaps it will, or some part of
> it will ...and it is in the hope of finding a bit of common ground as a
> starting point that I continue.
>
> Albucius asked, (and I didn't retain the post so I can't quote it exactly,
> whether we thought the gods took an interest in human affairs. (this was
> with reference to the ongoing discussions of the World cup).
>
> As usual, my mind found a side path, and followed it ...and I offer, with
> respect and not a little diffidence, the results of my rambles.
>
> For me, the short answer to the consul's question is "yes" ...but I can't
> even begin to prove or defend that answer. It comes from purely subjective
> experiences, inklings, feelings, perhaps desires ...perhaps the need to know
> that someone, somewhere "out thee" with more power than I, and greater
> vision than I, and a broader perspective than I, cares about what happens to
> me.
>
> I have felt, for some time, that it is part of man's (inclusive of all
> humanity, not gender specific), nature to have the desire and the need to
> worship: to look beyond himself to something greater ...something which can
> be adored, is sometimes feared and appeased, but which must require respect.
> In other words, there is something in us, very, very close to our core,
> which must "look up" or out. Perhaps it is as simple as that we have an
> essential need to be a par of something greater than ourselves ..something
> that makes sense of our Universe, it's seemingly random, mindless and
> heartless events, and our lives ...something, in short, that reassures us
> that we are not some sort of flotsam tossed on an endless ocean of random
> happenstance. Perhaps it is the knowledge embedded into every soul that
> there is something beyond us ...encompassing us ...something magnificent,
> and awesomely beautiful with which we can, with will and work, establish
> some sort of contact and eventual union. Perhaps, deep within the recesses
> of our beings we hear the voices of the gods (define that as you will)
> speaking to us, and drawing us to them. I do not know ...but I do know
> that, even at a time when I thought I hated all Divinity ...when my grief
> was so deep and so bitter that if I could have I would have cursed the god I
> then worshiped ...I could not, literally, because there was something in me
> that *knew* that somehow, though I could not see it, my beloved sister's
> death fit into a mosaic that, could I but see it, would make sense.
>
> some years ago (goodness, almost 25 years ago!) I attended a service held by
> our metaphysical church every Halloween; a memorial service, of sorts, to
> honor our beloved who had passed on before us. I had attended them before,
> and found them moving ...but this was the year of my husband's death ...so
> this service was much, much more difficult for me.
>
> part of the service involved a period of meditation and reflection ...and I
> found myself belaboring every harsh word, every thoughtless or insensitive
> act, of my marriage, and, well, severely chastising myself, to put it
> mildly. I don't know from where the following understanding came ...from my
> husband, from one of the gods, or from my own mind, forced, finally, to be
> still and look, quietly, within ...but I did understand several things, that
> I have retained, and found valuable.
>
> I cannot prove, empirically that the gods exist ...it is far beyond my
> capability, and I am not sure it is within the capabilities of the greatest
> mathematicians or scientists we have. so, I will not know, for certain,
> until I die whether A. there is an after life of any sort, or B. that the
> gods exist, or C. *which* gods exist.
>
> that being so, I can either deny my need for belief in something greater
> than myself, and become a materialist (which would be entirely alien to me),
> or I can choose (or create) a belief system, and, in so doing, devote myself
> to it wholeheartedly ...and give little no no consideration to whether I
> will be proved "right" or "wrong". If I am right, I will fid out upon my
> death. If I am wrong, I will find out .upon my death. But until that
> happens, unless I make a choice, and then abide by that choice, and give it
> all that I have ...I will find myself wandering in a sort of fog riddled
> wilderness, where nothing is clear, and where even the questions seem to
> slip though my fingers.
>
> I realized at that point that, for me, *what* I believe is less important,
> in some ways than *that* I believe. Now, in saying that I do not mean to
> imply that "any old belief system will do". Nor do I think it acceptable
> for me to "change up" every so often ...or to incorporate a little bit of
> this, and a little bit of that, into some sort of personal "system" that has
> more to do with my ego and my comfort zone than with anything else.
>
> I cam to the Religio Romans ultimately because, in some ways, that was where
> I started, until cultural an familial imperatives distracted me ...and, in
> so doing, I am at peace ..with my gods and with myself.
>
> Do I think the gods even notice C. Maria Caeca? Well ...I can't prove it
> ..but the very fact that I have, with all the stupid things I've done, and
> all the risks I've taken, and with the dangers inherent in being an
> independent blind female alone in a very large and hostile city, stayed
> alive and mostly injury free ..leads me to think that yes, perhaps they do.
>
> I hope that posting this, here, on the ML, instead of on the RR list is not
> inappropriate, and I also hope that I have neither bored or offended anyone.
> If I have, I apologize.
>
> Respectfully,
> C. Maria Caeca
> Sacerdos Vestalis et Camilla
>

World Cup fever seems to be gripping just about everyone or perhaps this little feline wanted to give the players some purrfect tips:
http://www.pawnation.com/2010/06/10/kitten-wanders-onto-soccer-field-melts-thousands-of-hearts-in-t/?feedItemId=30846&siteId=74
 
 
Maxima Valeria Messallina




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Caeca Sabinae Omnibusque S. P. D.

And living a life of virtue is, of course, (well, I my opinion) the optimum choice for anyone, whatever their beliefs, and my instincts tell me that it is also the natural practical outcome and application of most religious systems, though they may define a life of virtue slightly differently.

I think my point was simply this. Since I cannot *know* these things, in the same way I know that 2 plus 2 equals 4, then it comes down to a matter of decided ..of choosing to believe in certain things, systems, beings ...or not. I choose to do so, and, once having chosen, will conduct my life accordingly, and worry about whether I was "right" or "wrong" when I become a shade. What I won't do is bedevil myself with questions like "do the gods exist?" because, well ...I have chosen to believe that they do ...and for *me*, that rather ends the discussion (smile).

I applaud your choice of life values, and wish you nothing but well!

valete bene,
C. Maria Caeca

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Maior Quiritibus spd;
just saw this and I'll see if I can make it today. They are playing the Goddesss Suite at my local university. Read the link, lyrics and sound.
http://communitymusicproject.org/tgs.html

Cato Mariae Caecae Sabinaesque SPD

I like this thread, and just wanted to add that remember the idea that "2 + 2 = 4" is just as much a human construct as theology. We have put values on "2" for our ... sanity ... I guess, scientifically speaking, and all of science is seen as it relates to human understanding of the universe.

We may say that there are "fundamental laws" of nature, etc., but we, humans, created the framework under which those laws operate. The gods operate sometimes within, sometimes without that framework :)

I still read the stories of the gods with the feeling that They aren't really concerned with our welfare, per se; sometimes They deign to agree to do certain things in return for our worship, sometimes They just like playing with us to see what happens.

Vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "C.Maria Caeca" <c.mariacaeca@...> wrote:
>
> Caeca Sabinae Omnibusque S. P. D.
>
> And living a life of virtue is, of course, (well, I my opinion) the optimum choice for anyone, whatever their beliefs, and my instincts tell me that it is also the natural practical outcome and application of most religious systems, though they may define a life of virtue slightly differently.
>
> I think my point was simply this. Since I cannot *know* these things, in the same way I know that 2 plus 2 equals 4, then it comes down to a matter of decided ..of choosing to believe in certain things, systems, beings ...or not. I choose to do so, and, once having chosen, will conduct my life accordingly, and worry about whether I was "right" or "wrong" when I become a shade. What I won't do is bedevil myself with questions like "do the gods exist?" because, well ...I have chosen to believe that they do ...and for *me*, that rather ends the discussion (smile).
>
> I applaud your choice of life values, and wish you nothing but well!
>
> valete bene,
> C. Maria Caeca
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Enodia Catoni Mariae Caecae Sabinaesque SPD

I'm preparing a geography lesson for a young friend. We are starting at the very beginning, and it's interesting how much of this very physical science has to do with imaginary lines and interstellar relationships. Our minds seem to require order to function well, or at least a common vocabulary. The Gods may well be speaking, but the language is yet beyond us.

Optime vale,

Enodia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> Cato Mariae Caecae Sabinaesque SPD
>
> I like this thread, and just wanted to add that remember the idea that "2 + 2 = 4" is just as much a human construct as theology. We have put values on "2" for our ... sanity ... I guess, scientifically speaking, and all of science is seen as it relates to human understanding of the universe.
>
> We may say that there are "fundamental laws" of nature, etc., but we, humans, created the framework under which those laws operate. The gods operate sometimes within, sometimes without that framework :)
>
> I still read the stories of the gods with the feeling that They aren't really concerned with our welfare, per se; sometimes They deign to agree to do certain things in return for our worship, sometimes They just like playing with us to see what happens.
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "C.Maria Caeca" <c.mariacaeca@> wrote:
> >
> > Caeca Sabinae Omnibusque S. P. D.
> >
> > And living a life of virtue is, of course, (well, I my opinion) the optimum choice for anyone, whatever their beliefs, and my instincts tell me that it is also the natural practical outcome and application of most religious systems, though they may define a life of virtue slightly differently.
> >
> > I think my point was simply this. Since I cannot *know* these things, in the same way I know that 2 plus 2 equals 4, then it comes down to a matter of decided ..of choosing to believe in certain things, systems, beings ...or not. I choose to do so, and, once having chosen, will conduct my life accordingly, and worry about whether I was "right" or "wrong" when I become a shade. What I won't do is bedevil myself with questions like "do the gods exist?" because, well ...I have chosen to believe that they do ...and for *me*, that rather ends the discussion (smile).
> >
> > I applaud your choice of life values, and wish you nothing but well!
> >
> > valete bene,
> > C. Maria Caeca
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

C. Maria Caeca Catoni S. P. D.

(laughs), and right you are ...I used that as something a bit more solid and verifiable than my own particular choices, which are the result of my own particular experience, thought patterns, emotional make up, and spiritual orientation.

Certainly I can see your point ...even a cursory reading of the body of literature involving man's relationship with the gods supports that view ...but ...and here is the point, I suspect where we diverge ...if we are to reconstruct the Sacra Romana, and if we are to recreate, as best we can, a viable, vibrant, *living* religio (and I believe that is what we are attempting), there comes a point at which we must somehow "bring forward" for lack of a better phrase, what we know to have been into our own environment. If we want an intellectual exercise only, confining ourselves to what has been written in the past is fine ..but if we want something relevant to practitioners today, we must apply what we can, recreate what we can't (with extreme care, and attention to as much past knowledge as we have, of course), and, ultimately, being human beings, I think if we (no, I correct that, if *I* don't), establish a relationship with the gods I worship and adore ...than what I will end up will be an empty shell. I am always glad to study and learn, either from primary sources or modern scholarship ...but orthopraxy, in and of itself isn't, to me, worship. It is ...a set of pre-determined, formal actions ...a kind of formal dance lacking music.

One of the things that fascinates me about what we are attempting is that our challenge involves all aspects of those who take it on, and requires action on all levels ...at least, for me, it does.

Respectfully,
C. Maria Caeca

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete,

M. Lucretius Agricola is an example for those who wish to be real Romans. The Res publica is for ever in debt with him.

Valete,
 
M•IVL•SEVERVS

SENATOR
PRO•CONSVL•PROVINCIÆ•MEXICI




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Recte dixit! Our webmasters and IT people labour quietly and behind the scenes, all the while doing so much for the res publica. We would not be here but for them. They give their time, their expensive services for free.
Let us praise them all:
M. Lucretius Agricola -past webmaster
C. Curius Saturninus - current CIO
Gn. Cornelius Lentulus- current webmaster
M. Octavius Germanicus Gracchus - long time
webmaster
Q. Valerius Callidus - past webmaster
M. Minucius Scaevola- past webmaster

Pro labore maximas gratias vobis agemus
M.Hortensia Maior

> M. Lucretius Agricola is an example for those who wish to be real Romans. The Res publica is for ever in debt with him.
>
> Valete,
>  
> M•IVL•SEVERVS
>
> SENATOR
> PRO•CONSVL•PROVINCIÆ•MEXICI
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Salve Rota !

And finally 2-2 ! I finally could watching the match thanks a repeat during last night, and once again, I did like how the U.S. team fight to come back.

When we see how some other teams play and how their players may forget that they represent their national colors (and i think of very close to my place...), it is a good fresh air bowl for us, and for Roman virtues in sport.

The U.S. are in a good position to be present in the 1/8th. They would deserve it. :-)

Vale!


P. Memmius Albucius

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Aqvillivs Rota <c.aqvillivs_rota@...> wrote:
>
> And the partisans felt too secure..... one moment not watching
> and the New World's Donovan strikes a lightning towards them.
> 1` for USA
>
> 2 : 1 for Slove
>
> --- On Fri, 6/18/10, Aqvillivs Rota <c.aqvillivs_rota@...> wrote:
>
> From: Aqvillivs Rota <c.aqvillivs_rota@...>
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma]Biased & Politically incorrect but fair SLOV : USA
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Friday, June 18, 2010, 3:02 PM
>
>
>
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>  
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> And the hope dies at last
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> 2:0 For SLOV
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>
>
> --- On Fri, 6/18/10, Aqvillivs <c.aqvillivs_rota@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> From: Aqvillivs <c.aqvillivs_rota@...>
>
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Nice Biased & Politically incorrect comments SLOV : USA
>
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>
> Date: Friday, June 18, 2010, 2:15 PM
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>
> And the Partisan stile scores SLOV 1 USA 0
>
>
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Salvete Senatores,



I have the honor informing the senators and the People of Nova Roma of my intention to call our Senate, for July, in the coming weeks.


The day of the session will depend on the consultation that I need having with my colleague who has issued his own call. But as « his » session will probably cover at the same time the end of June and the beginning of July, I need to agree with him how to conciliate our respective agendas in order that the senatorial work be as productive as possible.


I take profit of this letter to confirm that the consular *priorities*, for this second half of 2763 auc, will be two : setting the legal status of Nova Roma (NR Inc. Corporation's future and its by-laws) ; restructuring our IT tools.


The first priority is, in my opinion, the most important one, for not acting on it will, sooner or later, create legal and financial consequences for Nova Roma and, directly and personally, for the directors of NR Inc., the senators.


Having priorities does not mean, naturally, that we cannot go forward, at the same time, on « ordinary » matters of our public action (organization, laws, etc.). It just mean that our decision-making calendar will work around these both priorities. Other matters will go on being proposed for discussion or law-making.


Here is the scheme of the consular action for the coming months.


Valete sincerely,



Albucius consul
_________________________________________________________________
Découvrez Windows Phone 7 : Une nouvelle ère de téléphones !
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsmobile/fr-fr/cmpn1/windowsphone7series/default.mspx

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

So what about my lawsuit. Cordus has been busy all weekend and we haven't heard a word from either you or Metellus. And you gave us a weekend deadline

We both have better things to do with our time than wasting it. We both expect replies.
M. Hortensia Maior

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Publius Memmius Albucius <albucius_aoe@...> wrote:
>
>
> Salvete Senatores,
>
>
>
> I have the honor informing the senators and the People of Nova Roma of my intention to call our Senate, for July, in the coming weeks.
>
>
> The day of the session will depend on the consultation that I need having with my colleague who has issued his own call. But as « his » session will probably cover at the same time the end of June and the beginning of July, I need to agree with him how to conciliate our respective agendas in order that the senatorial work be as productive as possible.
>
>
> I take profit of this letter to confirm that the consular *priorities*, for this second half of 2763 auc, will be two : setting the legal status of Nova Roma (NR Inc. Corporation's future and its by-laws) ; restructuring our IT tools.
>
>
> The first priority is, in my opinion, the most important one, for not acting on it will, sooner or later, create legal and financial consequences for Nova Roma and, directly and personally, for the directors of NR Inc., the senators.
>
>
> Having priorities does not mean, naturally, that we cannot go forward, at the same time, on « ordinary » matters of our public action (organization, laws, etc.). It just mean that our decision-making calendar will work around these both priorities. Other matters will go on being proposed for discussion or law-making.
>
>
> Here is the scheme of the consular action for the coming months.
>
>
> Valete sincerely,
>
>
>
> Albucius consul
> _________________________________________________________________
> Découvrez Windows Phone 7 : Une nouvelle ère de téléphones !
> http://www.microsoft.com/windowsmobile/fr-fr/cmpn1/windowsphone7series/default.mspx
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

M. Moravius Magister Collegium Augurum Tribunibus Plebis s. p. d.

Consul Fabius Buteo has the fasces this month and shall be the presiding magistrate for the elections to be held in the Comitia Populi and the Comitia Centuriata. But because he is away in Rome this weekend he asked Consul Albucius to post his announcement on the Comitia Centuriata. Consul Albucius however exceeded his authority by disregarded the auspicium that was taken, by then taking an improper tripudium that he had no authority to take, and then changing the date for the Comitia Centuriata.

Consul Albucius has also exceed his constitutional authority by his attempt to conduct a tribunal. During the Consular year of Pompeia and Modianus, Consul Modianus tried to establish a tribunal to prosecute one App. Claudius Priscus. Upon the request of Ti. Galerius Paulus the Tribuni Plebis reviewed the pertinent law and determined that the Constitution does not give the consules authority to hold a tribunal. Any suit would have to await the election of new praetores.

As far as the matter of Consul Albucius attempting to take auspices, I can speak for the Collegium Augurum. The Collegium has been reviewing his reports of previous auspicia. These were in error on these grounds:

1. The tripudia were not conducted in properly erected templa. To wit, he reported: "using my consular stick in the right hand as a lituus, I waved it towards North-East, South-East, South-West and North-West, in order to mark out the templum of the ceremony of taking of auspices." Further, he stated, "The cage had been placed outside the templum area." He refers here to the cage, covered with a veil, that held a chicken. The chicken thus had to cross into the templum rather than begin the ceremony inside the templum. A tripudium must be made entirely inside a templum. Only an augur may effect a templum - as was historically the case and why augures travelled with a consul, and as stipulated in the Constitution 6.B.2.b.1.

2. During the first tripudium he performed to open the first session of the Senate, he stood during the auspicium, contrary to what is proper. In his second tripudium he performed he again reported that he stood as he marked out a templum, that he move about in the templum at various stages of the ceremony, that he then stood before his seat, facing east, as he prayed to Jupiter, that he then knelt to open the cage, then turned west to open the cage, before seating himself.

Properly an auspex must be seated throughout the ceremony, he must remain immobile as he observes the auspices and stay in one place. (Serv, Aen 6.197: ad captanda auguria post preces inmobiles vel sedere vel stare consueverunt).

3. He states that he took "the plate on my right and behind me, with the right hand. I placed it in my left hand putting off the yellow napkin which covered its contents, placing it where the plate was." Using the left hand is again improper and unsuited in a ritual calling upon Jupiter or any Di celesti. The left hand is used only when offering to Di inferni and only under the cover of darkness.

4. He also included some strangely perculiar additions to his rite such as this: "I took off, from inside my toga, a blue square piece of cloth, unfolded it and, after waiving it towards the four cardinal directions, put it on my head, over the velens toga, and said, turned to the East: 'Let this piece of cloth be the roof of the templum minor of this ceremony.'"

5. He observed the action of a single chicken rather than listened for the sound of several chickens eating. This was improper and not a tripudium at all. Cicero, De Div. 1.15.28: "According to the writing of the augurs, a tripudium results if any of the food should fall to the ground." It is not the observation of food falling from the mouth of the chickens, but the sound that they make that determines whether a positive result is given. Festus (298b) states "Sollistium, in the opinion of Appius Claudius, in Book I of his Auguralia Discipliniae, is a tripudium [from the sound made] when meal falls from the mouths of birds: whether on rock or packed earth, falling down from the trees they live in, and not what was tainted beforehand, either cut by human hand or strewn by humans, or what was expelled." He says (290a) "Sonivio in the chants of the augurs signifies noises." And also states (297b) what sounds is to be observed. "A Sonivium tripudium, according to Appius Claudius, refers to the noise made when the puls falls from the mouths of chickens, a sound as though quadrupeds were walking." But instead of listening, what Consul Albucius reported was his observation of the actions of his chicken 'Tripudens':

"I turned towards south and, the seat still in my back, knelt to take the plate on my right and behind me, with the right hand. I placed it in my left hand putting off the yellow napkin which covered its contents, placing it where the plate was. Standing up, I turned back to the west and put off with the right hand the veil from the cage, folding this veil in four and placing it between the cage and me, touching the cage. I unlocked the door of the cage, opening it wide, moved a step backward and sat down.

"'Tripudens' quickly walked out to the west then towards north-east, nine paces ahead. The pullo seems, at this moment, looking at the rising sun. I counted twelve seconds, while Tripudens turned right, walking three paces southward and stopped. Then I threw, around one foot before the chicken's feet, the three pieces of bread, so that they may fall down on the yard floor and form a triangle whose summits be towards East, South and West.

"'Tripudens' first seized the 'eastern' piece, the closest to it, and ate it immediately. Then it seemed hesitating between the western and the southern piece of bread, walked up first to the west back in direction of the cage, seemed to look at me and stopped. He then changed direction and went to the southern piece of bread that was seized with no delay. Both pieces of bread were swallowed immediately. 'Tripudens' did not go directly to the last piece, but went back, heading north-east, and making a kind of semi-circle whose tangent was the axis of the sunrise, went quietly westward to this last piece. He stopped before the piece before trying to pick it up, looked at me around three seconds, and finally took up the piece, kept it around three more seconds in its beak, facing south."

6. Where a single chicken exits the cage, as Plutarch describes (T. Gracchus 17.1), it implies an unfavorable omen. Obviously, too, a single chicken, no matter how hungrily it eats, could not sound like a herd of quadrupeds walking. So conducting a tripudium with only one chicken to begin with is not a tripudium.

7. The prayers that he reported are odd. First, when waving about his blue cloth, he supposedly prayed: "Let this piece of cloth be the roof of the templum minor of this ceremony. Pater Iove, Dii immortales, allow and protect this ceremony of taking the auspices. If you disagree with the convening of the comitia, not necessarily on the matter itself of the call of our Rome comitia, but on its forms, if you consider that the circumstances are not favorable for them, for a decision of the People, or for any act that such a votation asks, speak and send a sign to me now.". In the following thirty seconds, nothing happened. I considered this as a nuntiatio of silentium."

This is a negative prayer, which is an error in itself, and it very questionable whether 30 seconds allowed enough time for a response. A question must be posed in such a form that it can only be answered by "Yes" or "No". Instead, what Consul Albucius reported he said when consulting his single chicken was not a question at all. He reported:

"Then, standing before my seat and both arms opened, the hands facing East, I said : 'Iove pater and you Dii immortales, allow me beginning to take the auspices for the session of the comitia that I intend to convene on next ante diem IV Kal. Apr. (Mo. 29 Mar. 2010). Di Iane, allow Tripudens pullo walking out of this cage and, once I will have thrown at it three pieces of bread, allow with all our Dii immortales, to reveal to our Republic, through me and by its behavior, if the signs you accept sending to us are favorable and, therefore, if this session with its defined agenda may be held under favorable auspices.'"


The members of the Collegium Augurum have been gathering more information as we review his previous reports. But it is obvious that improper auspices were taken for the comitia held earlier in the year when Consul Albucius' legislation was so roundly defeated. As for his claim to have taken auspices again, we do not know what he did as he has yet to report to the Collegium Augurum. He did not even inform us that he was taking auspices. But based on his past reports, what the Consul performs is not a tripudium and not an auspicium. It is not condoned by the Collegium Augurum.

Further, the Consul's claim to a power of auspicium is neither historical nor constitutional under Nova Roma law. He is trying to sidestep the authority that the Constitution provides to the Collegium Augurum and its individual members by usurping authority he does not hold, authority that was never granted to him by the Comitia Curiata or by the Collegium Augurum. There is no arguments to make on this issue. The matters of concern are solely under the authority of the Collegium Augurum to make a determination on the Consul's previous attempts to usurp a power of auspicium, on his foreign and bizarre rituals, on his attempt to pass these off as auspicia, and whether anything passed under him are valid. As things turned out, nothing passed in the previous comitia held by Consul Albucius, but if there had, it would have to be ruled invalid.

Further, Consul Albucius was informed earlier that the Collegium is reviewing his earlier attempts, and he was instructed not to perform any auspicia until the Collegium instructs him further. Thus the reason he did not inform the Collegium of his most recent attempt to by-pass its authority. Under the Constitution 6.B.2.b.2 any individual Augur may announce an obnuntio to delay an action by a magistrate, and if necessary the Augures shall do so in order to prevent the confusion that would result by having to later declare invalid the results of any comitia conducted without proper auspicia under Consul Albucius.

For the technical reasons I have outlined above, the so-called auspicia that Consul Albucius claims to have taken will likely be declared invalid. To make things simpler, the Tribuni Plebis ought to intervene, since it is not legal for magistrates to take certain actions on a given date when it has previously been declared dies nefastus by the Collegium Pontificum, as we have seen recently with the Praetrices, and it is not legal to hold comitia or sessions of the Senate without first taking auspicia that are properly conducted under the guidence of the Collegium Augurum. Participation in what are illegal and nefarious elections, would also pose that candidates in the elections and the lesser magistrates who conduct the electoral process, namely the Custodes and Diribitors, could also be held as impious. Thus even more problems are poised to arise from these unconstitutional actions of Consul Albucius as he seeks to usurp augural authority just as he attempts to usurp judicial authority during his colleague's absence. It amounts to an attempt to overthrow the Res Publica by establishing himself as king. And for that reason alone the Tribuni Plebis ought to intervene on behalf of the Res Publica.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@...> wrote:
>
> C. Petronius Messallinae s.p.d.,
>
> > It is my understanding that Consul Quintilianus does for the month of June, so Consul Albucius cannot do so this month. He has to wait until July, in which case he has plenty of time to request an auspice from the Collegium Augurum.
>
> Yes, I agree with you. But what about comitia to be convened on june 24 according to the auspicia and the wish of the consul K. Fabius?
>
> I suspect a very strange way of working between our consuls...
>
> Optime vale.
>
> C. Petronius Dexter
> tribunus Plebis Arcoiali scribebat
> a. d. XIII Kalendas Quintiles P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
>

Cato Mariae Caecae sal.

I don't think we separate ways very much at all, actually, because I too think that a vibrant, living practice of the religiones Romanae is vital to the health of the State.

The only cautionary note I would sound is that the religiones Romanae relied very strictly on correct *practice* of the rites; that is, the precise and exact;y correct actions and words necessary to validate the ceremonies. We do not have a lot of latitude - none whatsoever, in the cases where rituals are known in their entirety - to "make up" stuff in order to restore the pax Deorum, no matter how heartfelt our devotion might be nor how deep our desire to do so.

I speak, of course, on the level of the public, official State cult.

Vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "C.Maria Caeca" <c.mariacaeca@...> wrote:
>
> C. Maria Caeca Catoni S. P. D.
>
> (laughs), and right you are ...I used that as something a bit more solid and verifiable than my own particular choices, which are the result of my own particular experience, thought patterns, emotional make up, and spiritual orientation.
>
> Certainly I can see your point ...even a cursory reading of the body of literature involving man's relationship with the gods supports that view ...but ...and here is the point, I suspect where we diverge ...if we are to reconstruct the Sacra Romana, and if we are to recreate, as best we can, a viable, vibrant, *living* religio (and I believe that is what we are attempting), there comes a point at which we must somehow "bring forward" for lack of a better phrase, what we know to have been into our own environment. If we want an intellectual exercise only, confining ourselves to what has been written in the past is fine ..but if we want something relevant to practitioners today, we must apply what we can, recreate what we can't (with extreme care, and attention to as much past knowledge as we have, of course), and, ultimately, being human beings, I think if we (no, I correct that, if *I* don't), establish a relationship with the gods I worship and adore ...than what I will end up will be an empty shell. I am always glad to study and learn, either from primary sources or modern scholarship ...but orthopraxy, in and of itself isn't, to me, worship. It is ...a set of pre-determined, formal actions ...a kind of formal dance lacking music.
>
> One of the things that fascinates me about what we are attempting is that our challenge involves all aspects of those who take it on, and requires action on all levels ...at least, for me, it does.
>
> Respectfully,
> C. Maria Caeca
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Caeca Catoni S. P. D.

Senator, I am in complete agreement with you on the exactitude necessary in public rituals, especially ...I'm sorry if I was unclear about that. I was referring, primarily, to those things of which we have very incomplete knowledge, occasionally as ephemeral as a passing remark made by one non-expert to another non-expert in the midst of an informal essentially about something else, entirely.

And, I might add, that even the most formal of dances has within it, something of the dancer ...not in the movements, which are set, or in the music, which is defined ...or in the words, which cannot be changed, but it is there; indefinable, perhaps, but recognizable.

Respectfully,
Vale bene,

C. Maria Caeca

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cato Piscino sal.

It appears that you are correct; the Constitution does not seem to make allowance for the absence of *both* praetors.

However, a case might be made for action being taken under this provision in the Constitution:

"The right to seek and receive assistance and advice from the State in matters of religious and social disputes occurring both within and outside the direct jurisdiction of Nova Roma;" (Const N.R. II.B.7)

This is certainly a dispute and it occurs within the direct jurisdiction of the Respublica. Whether it could be considered a "social" dispute may be a question, but I would think that it is as it involves abuse of the offices which help define us as a society, or social group.

And remember that no law may restrict this right as the Constitution is supreme, no matter what a lex may say.

Vale,

Cato

Cato Caecae sal.

I agree (again - this is getting to be a habit).

These defining characteristics - in your parlance, the execution of the dance steps, perhaps - though, might be more of the type that we all recognize in any performance by any public figure, like "oh Cato always says 'chelly' instead of 'kelly' (for 'coeli')" or "Albucius always looks like he's signaling a goal when he raises his arms" rather than the specific actions or words being spoken. Does that make sense?

Vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "C.Maria Caeca" <c.mariacaeca@...> wrote:
>
> Caeca Catoni S. P. D.
>
> Senator, I am in complete agreement with you on the exactitude necessary in public rituals, especially ...I'm sorry if I was unclear about that. I was referring, primarily, to those things of which we have very incomplete knowledge, occasionally as ephemeral as a passing remark made by one non-expert to another non-expert in the midst of an informal essentially about something else, entirely.
>
> And, I might add, that even the most formal of dances has within it, something of the dancer ...not in the movements, which are set, or in the music, which is defined ...or in the words, which cannot be changed, but it is there; indefinable, perhaps, but recognizable.
>
> Respectfully,
> Vale bene,
>
> C. Maria Caeca
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Caeca Catoni Sal,

Yes, these things would be the outward manifestations of the motivating "inner" spark of the "performer".

Vale Bene,
CMC

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Caeca Catoni Sal,

In thinking about what you said ...it occurs to me that our difference lies here. I gather, from various things that you have posted (and no, I can't provide the exacts ...call it an accumulation of reading what you have to say over several years, OK?) that you feel that orthopraxy is the beginning and the end of the Sacra Publica ...that, so long as the rituals are performed correctly, nothing else is required.

Well ...while there is certainly evidence that this was the case, at least sometimes, in Roma Antiqua, and that those who performed public rites did not always "believe" in the Sacra, or even the gods to whom they prayed; that they were performing the obligations of a contract made by the Roman people long ago ...I think that many public officials *did* firmly believe, deeply, in the Sacra, the gods, and performed their rituals just as exactly, but from their very souls.

I think that this whole issue is a bit more complicated than it seems, at face value. I can only speak for myself, of course, and would never presume to speak for anyone else, especially in this area ...but, if the day ever comes when I perform a public rite, either virtually, in NR, or at an event, I will do so in as exact a manner as I possibly can (including obtaining masses of help from my favorite Latinists so that my pronunciation is correct), but what I do, and everything I do, will be motivated not by a desire to perform a perfect rite ...but because it is a visible expression of those things which I hold most beloved.

Let me also make clear that I do *not* believe in "making things up as we go along" that is, creating forms and such from whole cloth, drawing on experiences or impulses stemming from a modern context. However ...what we are trying to do is not a demonstration of the past, nor is it an intellectual exercise. Sometimes, we will have to "fill in the gaps", and sometimes, we may well find that certain things need to be dealt with in slightly different ways.

Again, I don't have the text handy, but I believe it was King Numa who wanted the rites to be difficult to *do*, but inexpensive to perform, using materials easily available. some of those materials are no longer easily available, or inexpensive ...so, at least in some cases, especially in our own Culti privati, we may, I suspect use some minor substitutions. (I could be *very* wrong about this, and so, I expect to hear about it, in no uncertain terms, from at least 2 people to whom I am now accountable, LOL!).

Vale bene,
C. Maria Caeca, who probably just got herself into trouble, *again*. oops!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Maior Piscino quiritibusque spd;
Maximas gratias, I sent this case law right to Cordus; it's wonderful to come up with case law pertinant to the subject. He and I still haven't heard either from Albucius or Metellus, harassing people with lawsuits & then doing nothing is really an abuse of the process.

I'm not the least bit worried about this case; but hounding people out of Nova Roma has to end!
vale
Maior

>
> "The right to seek and receive assistance and advice from the State in matters of religious and social disputes occurring both within and outside the direct jurisdiction of Nova Roma;" (Const N.R. II.B.7)
>
> This is certainly a dispute and it occurs within the direct jurisdiction of the Respublica. Whether it could be considered a "social" dispute may be a question, but I would think that it is as it involves abuse of the offices which help define us as a society, or social group.
>
> And remember that no law may restrict this right as the Constitution is supreme, no matter what a lex may say.
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>

Cato Caecae sal.

No trouble from this corner, at least, as I see intelligent inquiry as the foundation of a well-informed and well-prepared society.

I do, in fact, believe that the form of the religiones Romanae that were publicly practiced were exactly that, and this belief is attested to only too well by countless ancient sources. We even have the blunt explanation that the rites and rituals of the religiones Romanae were kept up to keep the general populace under the feeling of uniqueness, protection and safety that the public rituals promised was being upheld by the State on their behalf for the pax Deorum.

That does not, however, mean that they can be nothing *more* than that, which is what seems to be the cliff that those who are most historically derisive of my opinion willingly leap off. I think that privately you can make the cultus Deorum as much or as little as you want for your own life, be it a simple nod to Them on holidays or a regular and intense personal relationship with Them.

It is the State cult that concerns me most, of course, as a citizen.

Vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "C.Maria Caeca" <c.mariacaeca@...> wrote:
>
> Caeca Catoni Sal,
>
> In thinking about what you said ...it occurs to me that our difference lies here. I gather, from various things that you have posted (and no, I can't provide the exacts ...call it an accumulation of reading what you have to say over several years, OK?) that you feel that orthopraxy is the beginning and the end of the Sacra Publica ...that, so long as the rituals are performed correctly, nothing else is required.
>
> Well ...while there is certainly evidence that this was the case, at least sometimes, in Roma Antiqua, and that those who performed public rites did not always "believe" in the Sacra, or even the gods to whom they prayed; that they were performing the obligations of a contract made by the Roman people long ago ...I think that many public officials *did* firmly believe, deeply, in the Sacra, the gods, and performed their rituals just as exactly, but from their very souls.
>
> I think that this whole issue is a bit more complicated than it seems, at face value. I can only speak for myself, of course, and would never presume to speak for anyone else, especially in this area ...but, if the day ever comes when I perform a public rite, either virtually, in NR, or at an event, I will do so in as exact a manner as I possibly can (including obtaining masses of help from my favorite Latinists so that my pronunciation is correct), but what I do, and everything I do, will be motivated not by a desire to perform a perfect rite ...but because it is a visible expression of those things which I hold most beloved.
>
> Let me also make clear that I do *not* believe in "making things up as we go along" that is, creating forms and such from whole cloth, drawing on experiences or impulses stemming from a modern context. However ...what we are trying to do is not a demonstration of the past, nor is it an intellectual exercise. Sometimes, we will have to "fill in the gaps", and sometimes, we may well find that certain things need to be dealt with in slightly different ways.
>
> Again, I don't have the text handy, but I believe it was King Numa who wanted the rites to be difficult to *do*, but inexpensive to perform, using materials easily available. some of those materials are no longer easily available, or inexpensive ...so, at least in some cases, especially in our own Culti privati, we may, I suspect use some minor substitutions. (I could be *very* wrong about this, and so, I expect to hear about it, in no uncertain terms, from at least 2 people to whom I am now accountable, LOL!).
>
> Vale bene,
> C. Maria Caeca, who probably just got herself into trouble, *again*. oops!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Cato Maiori sal.

Ummm, Maior?

It was me who posted this, not Piscinus, and it has to do with the viability of any kind of case being brought up.

It deals with what might be possible with vacancies in both the praetors' chairs.

And just FYI, it wouldn't be considered "case law" as it does not refer to any case past or present; it is Constitutional law.

Vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> Maior Piscino quiritibusque spd;
> Maximas gratias, I sent this case law right to Cordus; it's wonderful to come up with case law pertinant to the subject. He and I still haven't heard either from Albucius or Metellus, harassing people with lawsuits & then doing nothing is really an abuse of the process.
>
> I'm not the least bit worried about this case; but hounding people out of Nova Roma has to end!
> vale
> Maior
>
>
> >
> > "The right to seek and receive assistance and advice from the State in matters of religious and social disputes occurring both within and outside the direct jurisdiction of Nova Roma;" (Const N.R. II.B.7)
> >
> > This is certainly a dispute and it occurs within the direct jurisdiction of the Respublica. Whether it could be considered a "social" dispute may be a question, but I would think that it is as it involves abuse of the offices which help define us as a society, or social group.
> >
> > And remember that no law may restrict this right as the Constitution is supreme, no matter what a lex may say.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Cato
> >
>

C. Petronius C. Catoni s.p.d.,

> It appears that you are correct; the Constitution does not seem to make allowance for the absence of *both* praetors.
> However, a case might be made for action being taken under this provision in the Constitution:
> "The right to seek and receive assistance and advice from the State in matters of religious and social disputes occurring both within and outside the direct jurisdiction of Nova Roma;" (Const N.R. II.B.7)

Ok, but this sentence is ambiguous, what is the State? Is one magistrate the State? Indeed, he is not. So the assistance and advice from the State must be assistance or advice given by the Comitia or by the Senate.

Vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
a. d. XII Kalendas Quintiles P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.

M. Hortensia Dextro quiritibusque spd;

I was talking to Piscinus about the legal precedent in Nova Roma of Appius Claudius Priscus. I'm sure the entire business will be dismissed. What a farce.
vale
Maior

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> Cato Maiori sal.
>
> Ummm, Maior?
>
> It was me who posted this, not Piscinus, and it has to do with the viability of any kind of case being brought up.
>
> It deals with what might be possible with vacancies in both the praetors' chairs.
>
> And just FYI, it wouldn't be considered "case law" as it does not refer to any case past or present; it is Constitutional law.
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> >
> > Maior Piscino quiritibusque spd;
> > Maximas gratias, I sent this case law right to Cordus; it's wonderful to come up with case law pertinant to the subject. He and I still haven't heard either from Albucius or Metellus, harassing people with lawsuits & then doing nothing is really an abuse of the process.
> >
> > I'm not the least bit worried about this case; but hounding people out of Nova Roma has to end!
> > vale
> > Maior
> >
> >
> > >
> > > "The right to seek and receive assistance and advice from the State in matters of religious and social disputes occurring both within and outside the direct jurisdiction of Nova Roma;" (Const N.R. II.B.7)
> > >
> > > This is certainly a dispute and it occurs within the direct jurisdiction of the Respublica. Whether it could be considered a "social" dispute may be a question, but I would think that it is as it involves abuse of the offices which help define us as a society, or social group.
> > >
> > > And remember that no law may restrict this right as the Constitution is supreme, no matter what a lex may say.
> > >
> > > Vale,
> > >
> > > Cato
> > >
> >
>

C. Petronius M. Moravio s.p.d.,

You sent on the main list a true course of the augural art, but I wonder if the result of this public lesson given to the consul Albucius should not lead a new struggle of powers, the civil one against the religious one.

I think that this public lesson was not very useful nor very delicate and I fear that you made Albucius more opposed to find a compromise with you.

I am not an augur but I guess that we will have soon many difficults ro regain the pax deorum on Nova Roma.

Optime vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
a. d. XII Kalendas Quintiles P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.

Salvete,

I have found this post seriously problematic on several technical augural grounds. Not everything our PM said was incorrect, but there were several places where he grossly misread the ancient augural evidence such that I can only wonder if our principal augur, in the process of correcting our consul over technique, has revealed his own shortcomings in the augural art.

One may wonder how I can make critical remarks without myself being an augur. The fact is that the basic mechanics of Roman augury are a matter of historical record and from this perspective ritual actions by our augurs can certainly be evaluated. If I have erred in any of the observations below, or have missed some pertinent ancient evidence, I gladly welcome comments! Below I have divided my observations into three categories.

I. Invalid Arguments

In argument #3 the PM criticizes the consul for using his left hand in a ritual dealing with the "Di celesti". While the right hand is certainly the appropriate hand for making offerings to the heavenly gods, the consul was not making an offering to the gods but rather feeding the chickens. Moreover, the use of the left hand is certainly not banned during augurium/auspicium as can be made no more clear in the well-known passage in Livy where Numa is inaugurated (1.18.7-10) when the augur passes his lituus to his left hand! (1.18.8).

In argument #5 he cites Festus 298b and graciously provides a translation to argue that a tripudium involves, among other things, being attentive to the sound made when food falls. Unfortunately, his translation is very tendentious--he adds material absent from the original Latin, namely, the bracketed "[from the sound made]", and translates "avi excidit ex ore" (PM trans. "falls from the mouths of birds") in the plural. Allow me to cite the corresponding Latin from the beginning of the passage: "Sollistimum, Ap. Pulcher in Auguralis Disciplinae, l. I. ait, esse tripudium, quom avi excidit ex ore, quod illa fert...." There is no mention or hint here that strictly sound is the target of observation, although, it may certainly attend food falling onto rocks, from the trees, or wherever. His bracketed material, however, forces the meaning to only concern sound. His translation of "avi" as "birds" compels one to think that by definition a Tripudium Sollistimum requires multiple birds, but the Latin clearly says "[it] falls from the mouth of a bird".

A more egregious error is committed as part of the same argument when he cites Festus 297b. In this case, his translation is not only tendentious, but he has completely misunderstood the end of the passage. The Latin reads: "Soni[vium] tripu[dium ut ait Appius] Pulcher, quod [sonet, cum pullo exci]dit puls, quadr[upedive]." Assuming that the reconstruction is accurate based on (I assume) Paulus Diaconius, it certainly does not say, as he translates, "...when the puls falls from the mouths of chickens, a sound as though quadrupeds were walking." Rather, it refers to the sound made "when the puls falls out, belonging to a chicken OR a quadruped." His translation is tendentious because he translates "pullo" in the plural, when the Latin is singular, and erroneous because he completely misunderstands "quadr[upedive]."

Building on his mistranslation of Festus 297b, argument #6 condemns the consul for only using one chicken because it "could not sound like a herd of quadrupeds walking" yet, as we have seen above, a Sonivium Tripudium as something that can happen with *a" chicken OR *a* quadruped and the animals concerned are in the singular. Likewise, let it be recalled that in Festus 298b it refers to food falling from the mouth of a single bird. Of course, multiple birds can be used, as seen in the various references and examples in Cicero, De Divinatione, but this was likely for practical reasons (one the one hand, to ensure that some food gets picked up and falls, and on the other hand, when traveling with chickens it would be hazardous to depend on one chicken surviving the entire journey).

More importantly, aside from the Tendenz of individual mistranslations, the PM seems to miss the obvious fact that Festus is defining different types of tripudii. In 297b he defines a Sonivium Tripudium and in 298b a Sollistimum Tripudium. The former involves the sound made from falling food with at least one chicken and the latter the observation of falling food in completely natural (i.e. unaltered by man) circumstances by at least one bird. Let it be noted, however, that Festus' definition seems idealized since Cicero refers to chickens under presumably controlled circumstances doing a "tripudium solistumum" (sic) in De Div. 2.8.20. The PM, then, seems to have grossly mangled the evidence to make it seem like the only valid tripudium is with "the sound of several chickens eating".

II. Partially Correct Arguments

In his argument #1, three criticisms are raised. Firstly, the templum was not erected correctly. Secondly, the chickens were brought into the templum after it had been erected. Finally, only an augur can erect a templum. The first two criticisms are valid. The consul was designating a locus in aere, which had to be done established verbally (Varro LL 7,8), and not merely by the movements of the lituus; had it been established correctly, the templum line could not be crossed during the ritual. The final criticism, that only an augur can establish a templum, is not correct. To quote Linderski, "The locus designatus in aere was established by the unilateral action of the auspicant: an augur, a magistrate or--in case of the auspicium privatum--even a privatus. On the other hand the templum inauguratum was established through the ceremony of inauguratio which only an augur could perform." (Linderski, "The Augural Law" ANRW II 16.3 (1986) 2270). The consul was not erecting the templum as a permanent site of augury, official business (such as the Rostra, which had been inaugurated), or for a place for the Senate to meet (see Serv. Aen. 1.446), therefore, no augur was needed.

In his argument #2 he criticizes the consul for not remaining seated and for moving about during various states in the ritual. For the first criticism he cites Serv, Aen 6.197 to argue that "Properly an auspex must be seated throughout the ceremony", but in fact that is not what the Latin states. It reads "...inmobiles vel sedere vel stare consueverunt". The basic meaning of stare is to stand. "vel sedere vel stare" obviously is contrasting the two positions. The auspicant must remain immobile sitting OR standing. Nonetheless, the fact that the consul was moving about indicates that neither of this conditions (sitting or standing) was met. He should not have been moving around and he should have had a pullarius to assist him in handling the chickens during the ritual.

III. Entirely Valid Arguments

In argument #4 the PM criticizes the consul for "some strangely perculiar additions" and I must entirely concur. I can find no ancient evidence to support what is being described there.

In argument #7 the PM indicates that the prayer used by the consul was a "negative prayer" and that it must be phrased in a yes/on manner. He further criticizes the consul for only waiting 30 seconds. All of these points are completely valid. The precatio must begin formulaically with "si est fast" and phrased in a positive manner. 30 seconds is also entirely too little time; moreover, I would also add that from the summary provided a legum dictio (by which the exact signs being sought were verbally defined) was completely missing, in which case, not only 30 seconds would not have been enough, but perhaps even 30 years.

Valete,

Gualterus Graecus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "marcushoratius" <MHoratius@...> wrote:
>
> M. Moravius Magister Collegium Augurum Tribunibus Plebis s. p. d.
>
> Consul Fabius Buteo has the fasces this month and shall be the presiding magistrate for the elections to be held in the Comitia Populi and the Comitia Centuriata. But because he is away in Rome this weekend he asked Consul Albucius to post his announcement on the Comitia Centuriata. Consul Albucius however exceeded his authority by disregarded the auspicium that was taken, by then taking an improper tripudium that he had no authority to take, and then changing the date for the Comitia Centuriata.
>
> Consul Albucius has also exceed his constitutional authority by his attempt to conduct a tribunal. During the Consular year of Pompeia and Modianus, Consul Modianus tried to establish a tribunal to prosecute one App. Claudius Priscus. Upon the request of Ti. Galerius Paulus the Tribuni Plebis reviewed the pertinent law and determined that the Constitution does not give the consules authority to hold a tribunal. Any suit would have to await the election of new praetores.
>
> As far as the matter of Consul Albucius attempting to take auspices, I can speak for the Collegium Augurum. The Collegium has been reviewing his reports of previous auspicia. These were in error on these grounds:
>
> 1. The tripudia were not conducted in properly erected templa. To wit, he reported: "using my consular stick in the right hand as a lituus, I waved it towards North-East, South-East, South-West and North-West, in order to mark out the templum of the ceremony of taking of auspices." Further, he stated, "The cage had been placed outside the templum area." He refers here to the cage, covered with a veil, that held a chicken. The chicken thus had to cross into the templum rather than begin the ceremony inside the templum. A tripudium must be made entirely inside a templum. Only an augur may effect a templum - as was historically the case and why augures travelled with a consul, and as stipulated in the Constitution 6.B.2.b.1.
>
> 2. During the first tripudium he performed to open the first session of the Senate, he stood during the auspicium, contrary to what is proper. In his second tripudium he performed he again reported that he stood as he marked out a templum, that he move about in the templum at various stages of the ceremony, that he then stood before his seat, facing east, as he prayed to Jupiter, that he then knelt to open the cage, then turned west to open the cage, before seating himself.
>
> Properly an auspex must be seated throughout the ceremony, he must remain immobile as he observes the auspices and stay in one place. (Serv, Aen 6.197: ad captanda auguria post preces inmobiles vel sedere vel stare consueverunt).
>
> 3. He states that he took "the plate on my right and behind me, with the right hand. I placed it in my left hand putting off the yellow napkin which covered its contents, placing it where the plate was." Using the left hand is again improper and unsuited in a ritual calling upon Jupiter or any Di celesti. The left hand is used only when offering to Di inferni and only under the cover of darkness.
>
> 4. He also included some strangely perculiar additions to his rite such as this: "I took off, from inside my toga, a blue square piece of cloth, unfolded it and, after waiving it towards the four cardinal directions, put it on my head, over the velens toga, and said, turned to the East: 'Let this piece of cloth be the roof of the templum minor of this ceremony.'"
>
> 5. He observed the action of a single chicken rather than listened for the sound of several chickens eating. This was improper and not a tripudium at all. Cicero, De Div. 1.15.28: "According to the writing of the augurs, a tripudium results if any of the food should fall to the ground." It is not the observation of food falling from the mouth of the chickens, but the sound that they make that determines whether a positive result is given. Festus (298b) states "Sollistium, in the opinion of Appius Claudius, in Book I of his Auguralia Discipliniae, is a tripudium [from the sound made] when meal falls from the mouths of birds: whether on rock or packed earth, falling down from the trees they live in, and not what was tainted beforehand, either cut by human hand or strewn by humans, or what was expelled." He says (290a) "Sonivio in the chants of the augurs signifies noises." And also states (297b) what sounds is to be observed. "A Sonivium tripudium, according to Appius Claudius, refers to the noise made when the puls falls from the mouths of chickens, a sound as though quadrupeds were walking." But instead of listening, what Consul Albucius reported was his observation of the actions of his chicken 'Tripudens':
>
> "I turned towards south and, the seat still in my back, knelt to take the plate on my right and behind me, with the right hand. I placed it in my left hand putting off the yellow napkin which covered its contents, placing it where the plate was. Standing up, I turned back to the west and put off with the right hand the veil from the cage, folding this veil in four and placing it between the cage and me, touching the cage. I unlocked the door of the cage, opening it wide, moved a step backward and sat down.
>
> "'Tripudens' quickly walked out to the west then towards north-east, nine paces ahead. The pullo seems, at this moment, looking at the rising sun. I counted twelve seconds, while Tripudens turned right, walking three paces southward and stopped. Then I threw, around one foot before the chicken's feet, the three pieces of bread, so that they may fall down on the yard floor and form a triangle whose summits be towards East, South and West.
>
> "'Tripudens' first seized the 'eastern' piece, the closest to it, and ate it immediately. Then it seemed hesitating between the western and the southern piece of bread, walked up first to the west back in direction of the cage, seemed to look at me and stopped. He then changed direction and went to the southern piece of bread that was seized with no delay. Both pieces of bread were swallowed immediately. 'Tripudens' did not go directly to the last piece, but went back, heading north-east, and making a kind of semi-circle whose tangent was the axis of the sunrise, went quietly westward to this last piece. He stopped before the piece before trying to pick it up, looked at me around three seconds, and finally took up the piece, kept it around three more seconds in its beak, facing south."
>
> 6. Where a single chicken exits the cage, as Plutarch describes (T. Gracchus 17.1), it implies an unfavorable omen. Obviously, too, a single chicken, no matter how hungrily it eats, could not sound like a herd of quadrupeds walking. So conducting a tripudium with only one chicken to begin with is not a tripudium.
>
> 7. The prayers that he reported are odd. First, when waving about his blue cloth, he supposedly prayed: "Let this piece of cloth be the roof of the templum minor of this ceremony. Pater Iove, Dii immortales, allow and protect this ceremony of taking the auspices. If you disagree with the convening of the comitia, not necessarily on the matter itself of the call of our Rome comitia, but on its forms, if you consider that the circumstances are not favorable for them, for a decision of the People, or for any act that such a votation asks, speak and send a sign to me now.". In the following thirty seconds, nothing happened. I considered this as a nuntiatio of silentium."
>
> This is a negative prayer, which is an error in itself, and it very questionable whether 30 seconds allowed enough time for a response. A question must be posed in such a form that it can only be answered by "Yes" or "No". Instead, what Consul Albucius reported he said when consulting his single chicken was not a question at all. He reported:
>
> "Then, standing before my seat and both arms opened, the hands facing East, I said : 'Iove pater and you Dii immortales, allow me beginning to take the auspices for the session of the comitia that I intend to convene on next ante diem IV Kal. Apr. (Mo. 29 Mar. 2010). Di Iane, allow Tripudens pullo walking out of this cage and, once I will have thrown at it three pieces of bread, allow with all our Dii immortales, to reveal to our Republic, through me and by its behavior, if the signs you accept sending to us are favorable and, therefore, if this session with its defined agenda may be held under favorable auspices.'"
>
>
> The members of the Collegium Augurum have been gathering more information as we review his previous reports. But it is obvious that improper auspices were taken for the comitia held earlier in the year when Consul Albucius' legislation was so roundly defeated. As for his claim to have taken auspices again, we do not know what he did as he has yet to report to the Collegium Augurum. He did not even inform us that he was taking auspices. But based on his past reports, what the Consul performs is not a tripudium and not an auspicium. It is not condoned by the Collegium Augurum.
>
> Further, the Consul's claim to a power of auspicium is neither historical nor constitutional under Nova Roma law. He is trying to sidestep the authority that the Constitution provides to the Collegium Augurum and its individual members by usurping authority he does not hold, authority that was never granted to him by the Comitia Curiata or by the Collegium Augurum. There is no arguments to make on this issue. The matters of concern are solely under the authority of the Collegium Augurum to make a determination on the Consul's previous attempts to usurp a power of auspicium, on his foreign and bizarre rituals, on his attempt to pass these off as auspicia, and whether anything passed under him are valid. As things turned out, nothing passed in the previous comitia held by Consul Albucius, but if there had, it would have to be ruled invalid.
>
> Further, Consul Albucius was informed earlier that the Collegium is reviewing his earlier attempts, and he was instructed not to perform any auspicia until the Collegium instructs him further. Thus the reason he did not inform the Collegium of his most recent attempt to by-pass its authority. Under the Constitution 6.B.2.b.2 any individual Augur may announce an obnuntio to delay an action by a magistrate, and if necessary the Augures shall do so in order to prevent the confusion that would result by having to later declare invalid the results of any comitia conducted without proper auspicia under Consul Albucius.
>
> For the technical reasons I have outlined above, the so-called auspicia that Consul Albucius claims to have taken will likely be declared invalid. To make things simpler, the Tribuni Plebis ought to intervene, since it is not legal for magistrates to take certain actions on a given date when it has previously been declared dies nefastus by the Collegium Pontificum, as we have seen recently with the Praetrices, and it is not legal to hold comitia or sessions of the Senate without first taking auspicia that are properly conducted under the guidence of the Collegium Augurum. Participation in what are illegal and nefarious elections, would also pose that candidates in the elections and the lesser magistrates who conduct the electoral process, namely the Custodes and Diribitors, could also be held as impious. Thus even more problems are poised to arise from these unconstitutional actions of Consul Albucius as he seeks to usurp augural authority just as he attempts to usurp judicial authority during his colleague's absence. It amounts to an attempt to overthrow the Res Publica by establishing himself as king. And for that reason alone the Tribuni Plebis ought to intervene on behalf of the Res Publica.
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@> wrote:
> >
> > C. Petronius Messallinae s.p.d.,
> >
> > > It is my understanding that Consul Quintilianus does for the month of June, so Consul Albucius cannot do so this month. He has to wait until July, in which case he has plenty of time to request an auspice from the Collegium Augurum.
> >
> > Yes, I agree with you. But what about comitia to be convened on june 24 according to the auspicia and the wish of the consul K. Fabius?
> >
> > I suspect a very strange way of working between our consuls...
> >
> > Optime vale.
> >
> > C. Petronius Dexter
> > tribunus Plebis Arcoiali scribebat
> > a. d. XIII Kalendas Quintiles P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
> >
>

I, M. Cornelius Gualterus Graecus (Walter M. Shandruk), do hereby solemnly swear to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, M. Cornelius Gualterus Graecus, swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

I, M. Cornelius Gualterus Graecus, swear to uphold and defend the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to act in a way that would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, M. Cornelius Gualterus Graecus, swear to protect and defend the Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, M. Cornelius Gualterus Graecus, further swear to fulfill the obligations and responsibilities of the office of scribe to the Magister Aranearius to the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do I accept the position of scribe to the Magister Aranearius and all the rights, privileges, obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.

M. Moravius C. Petronio s. p. d.

By Res Publica is meant the Pax Deorum. The Gods are part of our community and therefore part of our State; They are not separate from it. I agree that some struggle has been initiated by Consul Albucius in his attempt to sidestep the Collegium and separate civil authorities from their religious responsibilities. But there is no "separation of church and state" in a Roman Res Publica. Consul Albucius has placed himself in a struggle against the State, against the Res Publica, and therefore against the Quirites, too. He does so by trying to bend the laws and by his attempts to usurp powers not previously held by any consul in Nova Roma.

On the augural matters, questions have been raised, and only one needs to be found valid to disallow the consul's tripudia. And I can raise still other questions, such as whether a tripudium is a correct method of auspicando to use for a comitia. Tripudia were used in the field by generals. There are examples where generals set aside the results of tripudia, and paid the consequences for their actions. But there is no example of anyone putting aside the result of an auspicium ex avibus. A tripudium is a lesser form of auspication and not the preferred form for use in considering whether a comitia may be called. The only example of a tripudium attempted for a similar case is the Greek source that mentions a tripudium attempted for Ti. Gracchus before holding a plebeian consilium. And in that example the chickens refused to come out of their cage, possibly because tripudia were not intended for comitia or consilia.

Anyway, as I said before, the earlier tripudia performed by the consul have been under review. He should not continue in his manner before a decision has been made by the Collegium Augurum.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@...> wrote:
>
> C. Petronius M. Moravio s.p.d.,
>
> You sent on the main list a true course of the augural art, but I wonder if the result of this public lesson given to the consul Albucius should not lead a new struggle of powers, the civil one against the religious one.
>
> I think that this public lesson was not very useful nor very delicate and I fear that you made Albucius more opposed to find a compromise with you.
>
> I am not an augur but I guess that we will have soon many difficults ro regain the pax deorum on Nova Roma.
>
> Optime vale.
>
> C. Petronius Dexter
> Arcoiali scribebat
> a. d. XII Kalendas Quintiles P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
>

M. Moravius Piscinus cultoribus Deorum et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit: Summanus vos servent.

Hodie est ante diem XII Kalendas Quinctilias; haec dies comitialis est: Summano in Circo Maximo

O Summane, cum bene nos iuvisti,
dique alii omnes caeli potentes,
eas vobis habeo grates atque ago.

O Summanus, for your kindly aid,
and to all the divine heavenly powers,
for what we have received, I give thanks


"A shrine is said to have been dedicated to Summanus, whoever He is, when you, Pyrrhus, were a terror to the Romans." ~ Ovidius Naso, Fasti 6.731

On the Capitoline Hill stood an ancient shrine to Summanus that was said to have been dedicated by King Titus Tatius (Varro Lingua Latinae 5.74). Sometime after 278 BCE, during the war with Pyrrhus, there was a lightning storm that struck the temples of the Capitoline.

"There were many portents, and the statue of the Capitoline Jupiter was struck down by lightning. Its head was found by the seers." ~ Titus Livius, Perioche 14.2

Since we don't have the full story, as Book XIV of Livy's history is missing, it cannot be said with certainty that this incident relates to the founding of a new Temple of Summanus near the Circus Maximus. The assumption is that it did since the Temple of Summanus was dedicated sometime between 278 and 275 BCE. However, it should be recalled that there was also a statue of Summanus on the Capitoline Hill by this time (Cicero, De Div. 1.10). If the Temple of Summanus begun in 278 BCE was related to this thunderstorm, then it is more likely that it was His statue that was struck, too, or that the statue in the Perioche refers to Jupiter Summanus. His name Summanus means "Before Morning" (from sub mane) and it refers to lightning that comes at night.

"The Tuscan books inform us, that there are nine Gods who discharge thunder-storms, that there are eleven different kinds of them, and that three of them are darted out by Jupiter. Of these the Romans retained only two, ascribing the diurnal kind to Jupiter, and the nocturnal to Summanus." ~ Plinius Secundus, Historia Naturalis 2.53

This relationship between Summanus and Jupiter is always found with the mention of the latter. Summanus is a nighttime Jupiter, or so it would seem. During the imperial era there were even dedications to Jupiter Summanus. Besides Ovid's comment, "quisquis is est," showing some doubt as to who Summanus may have been, is echoed in a comment from centuries later.

"The ancient Romans paid greater honors to I know not what Summanus, to whom they attributed nocturnal thunderbolts, than to Jupiter, to whom diurnal thunderbolts were held to pertain. But, after a famous and conspicuous temple had been built to Jupiter, owing to the dignity of the building, the multitude resorted to him in so great numbers, that scarce one can be found who remembers even to have read the name of Summanus, which now he cannot once hear named." ~ Augustinus of Hippo, De Civitate Dei 4.23

And so a story emerged that Summanus struck down a statue of Jupiter in anger at the Romans paying so much attention to Jove and not enough to Summanus. But there is not an ancient source to base this on and I cannot quite agree with whimsical modern scholars that say, just because Ovid said of Summanus, "quisquis is est," that by the principate He "had been fairly shouldered out of the course by more important or pushing deities (W.W. Fowler)." Ovid has a habit of making scoffing remarks at times that I feel has more to do with playing to his audience of literati than it is a reflection of the common views of the Romans in his time. I don't think the Romans would have thought of their Gods as jostling for position and recognition. There is however also the authority of Varro, Pliny, and others we know only by quotations in other works. Varrius Flaccus, quoted by Festus, has, 'Quod diurna Iovis, nocturna Summani fulgura habentur.' There is in Rome an inscription related to a puteal that reads, "A bolt of lightning that fell before dawn is buried here" (CIL 6.206: Fulgur summanum conditum).

Part of the Summanalia involved the use of a special bread in which was impressed a symbol of a wheel (Festus p. 348). Moulds for such breads have been discovered at Tarentum. It was observed in the late 19th century that such breads with wheels or crosses, sometimes impressed so deeply as to segment the bread, served the purpose "to facilitate distribution." Today's hot-crossed buns originate from such breads. One would have to assume therefore that the Summanalia involved sharing a meal, distributing the bread, in a manner similar to the epulum Iovis.

My own view of Summanus is that He is a God who watches over us and protects us throughout the night, employing thunderbolts against people or things that might seek to use the cover of darkness to do us harm. He is in a certain sense then a God of divine justice and of retribution, providing us security in our homes when we would be most vulnerable. Tonight as we celebrate the Summanalia we may give thanks that one may enjoy a quiet, peaceful meal in his or her home, sharing bread, because of the protection offered by Summanus.


Today's thought is from Epicurus, Golden Sayings 40.

"He who asserts that everything happens by necessity can hardly find fault with one who denies that everything happens by necessity; by his own theory this very argument is voiced by necessity."

C Marcius Crispus L Semproniae Sabinae S.P.D.

I have attached for you a link to the Britannia Provincia website, from where you will be able to find all links to other provincial pages.

http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Provincia_Britannia_%28Nova_Roma%29

I am having problems with Yahoo, so if the link doesn't work this time, please go to the main Nova Roma page, select Provinces, list of provinces, and choose Britannia from that list.

I hope you are enjoying your citizenship and increasing your knowledge.

If you have questions to ask, by all means ask away, and you may find the following New Roman list a good place to make enquiries:-

http://www.novaroma.org/nr/New_Roman_list_%28Nova_Roma%29

Lastly, whereabouts in Britannia are you? There may be more citizens nearby whom you can meet.

Vale optime
Crispus

Salve,

You state "On the augural matters, questions have been raised, and only one needs to be found valid to disallow the consul's tripudia" and I agree with this. But, what I find far more disturbing is that you, as the most respected and principal augur of NR, have committed so many errors in your analysis of consul Albucius' auspicium.

Is there a single Augur in Nova Roma that can be fully trusted in his analysis of the sources? I am skeptical. The situation is disturbing and unfortunate.

I call on you to give an account for the errors you have committed in your analysis of Albucius' auspicium. If Albucius, someone who is not a professional in the art, is to be condemned for his imperfect execution of auspicium, then all the more should you be condemned for voicing poorly argued and invalid criticisms of his actions.

Vale,

Gualterus Graecus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "marcushoratius" <MHoratius@...> wrote:
>
> M. Moravius C. Petronio s. p. d.
>
> By Res Publica is meant the Pax Deorum. The Gods are part of our community and therefore part of our State; They are not separate from it. I agree that some struggle has been initiated by Consul Albucius in his attempt to sidestep the Collegium and separate civil authorities from their religious responsibilities. But there is no "separation of church and state" in a Roman Res Publica. Consul Albucius has placed himself in a struggle against the State, against the Res Publica, and therefore against the Quirites, too. He does so by trying to bend the laws and by his attempts to usurp powers not previously held by any consul in Nova Roma.
>
> On the augural matters, questions have been raised, and only one needs to be found valid to disallow the consul's tripudia. And I can raise still other questions, such as whether a tripudium is a correct method of auspicando to use for a comitia. Tripudia were used in the field by generals. There are examples where generals set aside the results of tripudia, and paid the consequences for their actions. But there is no example of anyone putting aside the result of an auspicium ex avibus. A tripudium is a lesser form of auspication and not the preferred form for use in considering whether a comitia may be called. The only example of a tripudium attempted for a similar case is the Greek source that mentions a tripudium attempted for Ti. Gracchus before holding a plebeian consilium. And in that example the chickens refused to come out of their cage, possibly because tripudia were not intended for comitia or consilia.
>
> Anyway, as I said before, the earlier tripudia performed by the consul have been under review. He should not continue in his manner before a decision has been made by the Collegium Augurum.
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@> wrote:
> >
> > C. Petronius M. Moravio s.p.d.,
> >
> > You sent on the main list a true course of the augural art, but I wonder if the result of this public lesson given to the consul Albucius should not lead a new struggle of powers, the civil one against the religious one.
> >
> > I think that this public lesson was not very useful nor very delicate and I fear that you made Albucius more opposed to find a compromise with you.
> >
> > I am not an augur but I guess that we will have soon many difficults ro regain the pax deorum on Nova Roma.
> >
> > Optime vale.
> >
> > C. Petronius Dexter
> > Arcoiali scribebat
> > a. d. XII Kalendas Quintiles P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
> >
>

Piscinus Catone salutem

The question is not whether a Citizen may bring a suit or seek assistance. Surely Metellus may bring a suit if he wishes. The previous review of the Tribuni Plebis was whether a consul could hold a tribunal. That question was raised by a prator, Ti. Galerius at the time. And what the Tribuni found was that the Constitution, current laws, and previous practice held that only praetores can conduct tribunals, and no where was authority given to consuls to hold tribunals. That is the reason why I, when consul afterward, brought suit before the praetors to defend the authority of the Senate and consuls to administrate. Disagree with what my suit involved, but there again the precedent is that a consul may not conduct a tribunal on his own volition. It would allow consuls to have too great a power if they did not have to go before praetors and tribunals to press their case.

It is the same in the US and in the law of other countries of the Americas, Europe and elsewhere. The executive power that administrates is separate from the judicial powers. If federal regulations are violated, the executive administration goes before a federal court to hear its case. The executive does not conduct its own tribunal to enforce its regulations. It is a separation of powers based on the constitution and practice of Roma antiqua. The argument might be raised that in Roma antiqua consuls could hold tribunals, but this is Nova Roma and when that argument was raised before the Tribuni still found that Nova Roma law does not provide such authority to our consuls.

As there are no praetores at the moment, Metellus' lawsuit will have to await election of new praetores. This is the same as when a suit is rejected by praetores and the citizen may await the election of new praetors before bringing suit. There is no hurry that justifies expedited proceedings, or that would allow a consul to take powers restricted to praetors.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> Cato Piscino sal.
>
> It appears that you are correct; the Constitution does not seem to make allowance for the absence of *both* praetors.
>
> However, a case might be made for action being taken under this provision in the Constitution:
>
> "The right to seek and receive assistance and advice from the State in matters of religious and social disputes occurring both within and outside the direct jurisdiction of Nova Roma;" (Const N.R. II.B.7)
>
> This is certainly a dispute and it occurs within the direct jurisdiction of the Respublica. Whether it could be considered a "social" dispute may be a question, but I would think that it is as it involves abuse of the offices which help define us as a society, or social group.
>
> And remember that no law may restrict this right as the Constitution is supreme, no matter what a lex may say.
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>

M. Moravius Horatianus Pontifex Maximus: Pontificibus, Maximae Valeriae Messallinae, Virgine Vestalis Maximae, Flaminibus et omnibus: salutem plurimam dicit:

Before the Gods, the session of the Collegium Pontificum is now opened.

AGENDA

ITEM I: A piaculum publicum


ITEM II: Defining Violations of Religious Law (nefas)


ITEM III: Revising the Decretum on Minimum Requirements


ITEM IV: The Religious Calendar for AUC 2764


ITEM V: Review of Flaminica M. Hortensia Maior


ITEM VI: Review of Pontifex Q. Caecilius Metellus


Voting will be conducted at the conclusion of discussions, concluding no later than sunset at Rome on pridie Kal. Quinct 20.49 CET.

Salve Moravius,
Salvete all,

I think that you guys are grasping at straws just to find a reason to pick
on our hard working Consul Albucius. It is always the same here, even after
many people were calling for a 'friendlier' list.

I couldn't care less if he used his right hand or left hand or even his
toes. It's seems to me that many people are only concerned with having their
toes stepped on. It's really stupid because remember kids, we are not really
Rome. Albucius and no one else can take 'power' away from you, because you
don't really have any in the first place.

Why don't we get rid of 3/4 of the laws and just be a club of people who
talk about Romans? We rarely talk about Ancient Rome, we only bicker about
NR law and who said what to whom 5 years ago. Jeez! Lighten up!

Vale,
Diana Octavia

Salve Maior,

The thing is, Cordus has been gone for so long from NR, that there are only
a handful of us who even remember him. I'm the first to say that he is a
very clever kid, but there are many others clever kids and adults here as
well. I don't find the 'Cordus said this' and 'Cordus said that' relevant.
I'm also a bit sceptical that he agrees with you about everything. If he
were here, I would know otherwise of course. Why doesn't he come back to NR?
I know he is busy in school for the last few years, but why doesn't he pop
in during the summer months? We could use his direct opinions and not second
hand edited ones.
Vale,
Diana

----- Original Message -----
From: "rory12001" <rory12001@...>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2010 2:52 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Call to Tribuni Plebis for intercessio: Re: Comitia
centuriata call edict


Maior Piscino quiritibusque spd;
Maximas gratias, I sent this case law right to Cordus; it's wonderful to
come up with case law pertinant to the subject. He and I still haven't
heard either from Albucius or Metellus, harassing people with lawsuits &
then doing nothing is really an abuse of the process.

I'm not the least bit worried about this case; but hounding people out of
Nova Roma has to end!
vale
Maior


>
> "The right to seek and receive assistance and advice from the State in
> matters of religious and social disputes occurring both within and outside
> the direct jurisdiction of Nova Roma;" (Const N.R. II.B.7)
>
> This is certainly a dispute and it occurs within the direct jurisdiction
> of the Respublica. Whether it could be considered a "social" dispute may
> be a question, but I would think that it is as it involves abuse of the
> offices which help define us as a society, or social group.
>
> And remember that no law may restrict this right as the Constitution is
> supreme, no matter what a lex may say.
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>

Salvete all,

I have a serious question about Roman music. I've been to several
reenactments where they play Roman music and/or Celtic music. How does
anyone know what it sounds like? Written music as we know has only existed
for about 400 years. My best friend Gunther* and I are both musicians and
are both insane about Ancient Rome. We talk about his a lot. We would both
interested in playing Roman music but I am sceptical about it's
authenticity. Any suggestions anyone?

Vale,
Diana
*Gunther Theys. He's the guy from Ancient Rites for the black metal/epic
metal fans out there.

Salve I can help you how to proceed but now...I have to watch tghe battle Italy against down under wait please






________________________________
From: Diana Octavia <roman.babe@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, June 20, 2010 1:20:57 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Roman music


Salvete all,

I have a serious question about Roman music. I've been to several
reenactments where they play Roman music and/or Celtic music. How does
anyone know what it sounds like? Written music as we know has only existed
for about 400 years. My best friend Gunther* and I are both musicians and
are both insane about Ancient Rome. We talk about his a lot. We would both
interested in playing Roman music but I am sceptical about it's
authenticity. Any suggestions anyone?

Vale,
Diana
*Gunther Theys. He's the guy from Ancient Rites for the black metal/epic
metal fans out there.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete,

NZL shocked the Home Legion with a surprise attack and got in the lead
with 1:0 !

The Machinery slowly started to get into moving and Italy sieges the NZL
Goal Temple!

After the halfgod uncovered a NZL Plott where a Legionary was attacked
in the Goal Temple's holy zone
they were punished with a free strike.
The Home Legion stoke a powerful score directly into the Temple!
1:1

The siege goes on!

Strong NZL defense of their Temple
and the Legion's siege goes on. Ocational counter attacks
though

And the Legion could not conquer the Temple


OU OU OU

M.Hortensia M. Moravio C. Petronio spd;

the Roman ideal is endowed in our other consul K.Fabeo Buteo Quintillianus; Flamen and Consul. In ancient Rome high magistrates were always religious officials. To be augur was considered the summit of public life.

P. Memmius for his own reasons is trying to secularize Nova Roma, but Nova Roma isn't France where this debate is meaningful, nor is it Britian or the United States, Brasil or Mexico....

As it says on our front page we're here to reconstruct republican religion, virtues, culture.

And the authority of the augurs, especially when they spoke as a College is was one all Romans respected and obeyed.

vale
M. Hortensia Maior

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "marcushoratius" <MHoratius@...> wrote:
>
> M. Moravius C. Petronio s. p. d.
>
> By Res Publica is meant the Pax Deorum. The Gods are part of our community and therefore part of our State; They are not separate from it. I agree that some struggle has been initiated by Consul Albucius in his attempt to sidestep the Collegium and separate civil authorities from their religious responsibilities. But there is no "separation of church and state" in a Roman Res Publica. Consul Albucius has placed himself in a struggle against the State, against the Res Publica, and therefore against the Quirites, too. He does so by trying to bend the laws and by his attempts to usurp powers not previously held by any consul in Nova Roma.
>
> On the augural matters, questions have been raised, and only one needs to be found valid to disallow the consul's tripudia. And I can raise still other questions, such as whether a tripudium is a correct method of auspicando to use for a comitia. Tripudia were used in the field by generals. There are examples where generals set aside the results of tripudia, and paid the consequences for their actions. But there is no example of anyone putting aside the result of an auspicium ex avibus. A tripudium is a lesser form of auspication and not the preferred form for use in considering whether a comitia may be called. The only example of a tripudium attempted for a similar case is the Greek source that mentions a tripudium attempted for Ti. Gracchus before holding a plebeian consilium. And in that example the chickens refused to come out of their cage, possibly because tripudia were not intended for comitia or consilia.
>
> Anyway, as I said before, the earlier tripudia performed by the consul have been under review. He should not continue in his manner before a decision has been made by the Collegium Augurum.
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@> wrote:
> >
> > C. Petronius M. Moravio s.p.d.,
> >
> > You sent on the main list a true course of the augural art, but I wonder if the result of this public lesson given to the consul Albucius should not lead a new struggle of powers, the civil one against the religious one.
> >
> > I think that this public lesson was not very useful nor very delicate and I fear that you made Albucius more opposed to find a compromise with you.
> >
> > I am not an augur but I guess that we will have soon many difficults ro regain the pax deorum on Nova Roma.
> >
> > Optime vale.
> >
> > C. Petronius Dexter
> > Arcoiali scribebat
> > a. d. XII Kalendas Quintiles P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
> >
>

Salvete Quirites;

typical, M. Moravius Piscinus is one of the few studying augural texts and with his own auguraculum. I was fortunate to be with him when he established on at A. Sempronius Regulus', another civis who left over the incessant political fighting.

Instead of helping Piscinus, Graecus and his buddies, Cato, Sulla et al. from the BA only exist to tear things down. Regulus told me he received an email that Piscinus and I would be gone from Nova Roma.

They create nothing, they do nothing but criticize and chase cives away; they are sterile and that's their vision of Nova Roma.
valete
M. Hortensia Maior

-:

>
>
> Salve,
>
> You state "On the augural matters, questions have been raised, and only one needs to be found valid to disallow the consul's tripudia" and I agree with this. But, what I find far more disturbing is that you, as the most respected and principal augur of NR, have committed so many errors in your analysis of consul Albucius' auspicium.
>
> Is there a single Augur in Nova Roma that can be fully trusted in his analysis of the sources? I am skeptical. The situation is disturbing and unfortunate.
>
> I call on you to give an account for the errors you have committed in your analysis of Albucius' auspicium. If Albucius, someone who is not a professional in the art, is to be condemned for his imperfect execution of auspicium, then all the more should you be condemned for voicing poorly argued and invalid criticisms of his actions.
>
> Vale,
>
> Gualterus Graecus
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "marcushoratius" <MHoratius@> wrote:
> >
> > M. Moravius C. Petronio s. p. d.
> >
> > By Res Publica is meant the Pax Deorum. The Gods are part of our community and therefore part of our State; They are not separate from it. I agree that some struggle has been initiated by Consul Albucius in his attempt to sidestep the Collegium and separate civil authorities from their religious responsibilities. But there is no "separation of church and state" in a Roman Res Publica. Consul Albucius has placed himself in a struggle against the State, against the Res Publica, and therefore against the Quirites, too. He does so by trying to bend the laws and by his attempts to usurp powers not previously held by any consul in Nova Roma.
> >
> > On the augural matters, questions have been raised, and only one needs to be found valid to disallow the consul's tripudia. And I can raise still other questions, such as whether a tripudium is a correct method of auspicando to use for a comitia. Tripudia were used in the field by generals. There are examples where generals set aside the results of tripudia, and paid the consequences for their actions. But there is no example of anyone putting aside the result of an auspicium ex avibus. A tripudium is a lesser form of auspication and not the preferred form for use in considering whether a comitia may be called. The only example of a tripudium attempted for a similar case is the Greek source that mentions a tripudium attempted for Ti. Gracchus before holding a plebeian consilium. And in that example the chickens refused to come out of their cage, possibly because tripudia were not intended for comitia or consilia.
> >
> > Anyway, as I said before, the earlier tripudia performed by the consul have been under review. He should not continue in his manner before a decision has been made by the Collegium Augurum.
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@> wrote:
> > >
> > > C. Petronius M. Moravio s.p.d.,
> > >
> > > You sent on the main list a true course of the augural art, but I wonder if the result of this public lesson given to the consul Albucius should not lead a new struggle of powers, the civil one against the religious one.
> > >
> > > I think that this public lesson was not very useful nor very delicate and I fear that you made Albucius more opposed to find a compromise with you.
> > >
> > > I am not an augur but I guess that we will have soon many difficults ro regain the pax deorum on Nova Roma.
> > >
> > > Optime vale.
> > >
> > > C. Petronius Dexter
> > > Arcoiali scribebat
> > > a. d. XII Kalendas Quintiles P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
> > >
> >
>

Salve,

Prof. Dr. Walter Maioli is still the only one did create experimental music with authentically reconstructed instruments.
He tried (Synaulia) together with his daughter Luce to reproduce Roman music. Only on a more or less experimental basis though.
The only way possible to approach this is, that you have to find on mosaics and paintings or writings what instrument combinations were used. Then try and and learn to make melodic songs and melodies with it. Maybe using old poetry as a text basis for songs.
I presume that as long as the results are melodic, singable or comfortable to listen, you actually got closest to what they did.
Try to listen and analize what Synaulia did, it gives you ideas and inspirations at least, although their creations are more explanary and experimental......take it to the next step. Maioli himself said to me that his idea is to give one an idea to carry it to the next step and use his creations as a basis ... to creat the real thing.

Have fun
and a lot of success

C.AQV







________________________________
From: Diana Octavia <roman.babe@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, June 20, 2010 1:20:57 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Roman music


Salvete all,

I have a serious question about Roman music. I've been to several
reenactments where they play Roman music and/or Celtic music. How does
anyone know what it sounds like? Written music as we know has only existed
for about 400 years. My best friend Gunther* and I are both musicians and
are both insane about Ancient Rome. We talk about his a lot. We would both
interested in playing Roman music but I am sceptical about it's
authenticity. Any suggestions anyone?

Vale,
Diana
*Gunther Theys. He's the guy from Ancient Rites for the black metal/epic
metal fans out there.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete,

It seems that our civis Maior has conveniently forgotten the fact that for last year's NR conventus I submitted a paper on the mechanics of augury to be read by the attendants (which then, as is still now, a work in progress). It was my goal to start a dialogue on the subject, but instead my effort seemed to be ill-received since I did not even get a single comment from some of the people who were supposed to read it (including Piscinus).

Now, a year later, Piscinus attempts to publicly condemn a consul for making errors, and in the process himself fumbles in half of his arguments. So, is Maior suggesting that I should have quietly and privately offered my comments while Piscinus takes the opportunity to publicly attack one of our curule magistrates? I can only characterize such an attitude as unjust and immoral.

Valete,

Gualterus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete Quirites;
>
> typical, M. Moravius Piscinus is one of the few studying augural texts and with his own auguraculum. I was fortunate to be with him when he established on at A. Sempronius Regulus', another civis who left over the incessant political fighting.
>
> Instead of helping Piscinus, Graecus and his buddies, Cato, Sulla et al. from the BA only exist to tear things down. Regulus told me he received an email that Piscinus and I would be gone from Nova Roma.
>
> They create nothing, they do nothing but criticize and chase cives away; they are sterile and that's their vision of Nova Roma.
> valete
> M. Hortensia Maior
>
> -:
> >
> >
> > Salve,
> >
> > You state "On the augural matters, questions have been raised, and only one needs to be found valid to disallow the consul's tripudia" and I agree with this. But, what I find far more disturbing is that you, as the most respected and principal augur of NR, have committed so many errors in your analysis of consul Albucius' auspicium.
> >
> > Is there a single Augur in Nova Roma that can be fully trusted in his analysis of the sources? I am skeptical. The situation is disturbing and unfortunate.
> >
> > I call on you to give an account for the errors you have committed in your analysis of Albucius' auspicium. If Albucius, someone who is not a professional in the art, is to be condemned for his imperfect execution of auspicium, then all the more should you be condemned for voicing poorly argued and invalid criticisms of his actions.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Gualterus Graecus
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "marcushoratius" <MHoratius@> wrote:
> > >
> > > M. Moravius C. Petronio s. p. d.
> > >
> > > By Res Publica is meant the Pax Deorum. The Gods are part of our community and therefore part of our State; They are not separate from it. I agree that some struggle has been initiated by Consul Albucius in his attempt to sidestep the Collegium and separate civil authorities from their religious responsibilities. But there is no "separation of church and state" in a Roman Res Publica. Consul Albucius has placed himself in a struggle against the State, against the Res Publica, and therefore against the Quirites, too. He does so by trying to bend the laws and by his attempts to usurp powers not previously held by any consul in Nova Roma.
> > >
> > > On the augural matters, questions have been raised, and only one needs to be found valid to disallow the consul's tripudia. And I can raise still other questions, such as whether a tripudium is a correct method of auspicando to use for a comitia. Tripudia were used in the field by generals. There are examples where generals set aside the results of tripudia, and paid the consequences for their actions. But there is no example of anyone putting aside the result of an auspicium ex avibus. A tripudium is a lesser form of auspication and not the preferred form for use in considering whether a comitia may be called. The only example of a tripudium attempted for a similar case is the Greek source that mentions a tripudium attempted for Ti. Gracchus before holding a plebeian consilium. And in that example the chickens refused to come out of their cage, possibly because tripudia were not intended for comitia or consilia.
> > >
> > > Anyway, as I said before, the earlier tripudia performed by the consul have been under review. He should not continue in his manner before a decision has been made by the Collegium Augurum.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > C. Petronius M. Moravio s.p.d.,
> > > >
> > > > You sent on the main list a true course of the augural art, but I wonder if the result of this public lesson given to the consul Albucius should not lead a new struggle of powers, the civil one against the religious one.
> > > >
> > > > I think that this public lesson was not very useful nor very delicate and I fear that you made Albucius more opposed to find a compromise with you.
> > > >
> > > > I am not an augur but I guess that we will have soon many difficults ro regain the pax deorum on Nova Roma.
> > > >
> > > > Optime vale.
> > > >
> > > > C. Petronius Dexter
> > > > Arcoiali scribebat
> > > > a. d. XII Kalendas Quintiles P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Maior did you just say a few days ago....that the incessent bickering must
stop?

Or was that just a facade to play to the people in the coming days of your
trial?

Vale,

Sulla

On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 9:04 AM, rory12001 <rory12001@...> wrote:

>
>
> Salvete Quirites;
>
> typical, M. Moravius Piscinus is one of the few studying augural texts and
> with his own auguraculum. I was fortunate to be with him when he established
> on at A. Sempronius Regulus', another civis who left over the incessant
> political fighting.
>
> Instead of helping Piscinus, Graecus and his buddies, Cato, Sulla et al.
> from the BA only exist to tear things down. Regulus told me he received an
> email that Piscinus and I would be gone from Nova Roma.
>
> They create nothing, they do nothing but criticize and chase cives away;
> they are sterile and that's their vision of Nova Roma.
> valete
> M. Hortensia Maior
>
> -:
>
> >
> >
> > Salve,
> >
> > You state "On the augural matters, questions have been raised, and only
> one needs to be found valid to disallow the consul's tripudia" and I agree
> with this. But, what I find far more disturbing is that you, as the most
> respected and principal augur of NR, have committed so many errors in your
> analysis of consul Albucius' auspicium.
> >
> > Is there a single Augur in Nova Roma that can be fully trusted in his
> analysis of the sources? I am skeptical. The situation is disturbing and
> unfortunate.
> >
> > I call on you to give an account for the errors you have committed in
> your analysis of Albucius' auspicium. If Albucius, someone who is not a
> professional in the art, is to be condemned for his imperfect execution of
> auspicium, then all the more should you be condemned for voicing poorly
> argued and invalid criticisms of his actions.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Gualterus Graecus
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "marcushoratius" <MHoratius@> wrote:
> > >
> > > M. Moravius C. Petronio s. p. d.
> > >
> > > By Res Publica is meant the Pax Deorum. The Gods are part of our
> community and therefore part of our State; They are not separate from it. I
> agree that some struggle has been initiated by Consul Albucius in his
> attempt to sidestep the Collegium and separate civil authorities from their
> religious responsibilities. But there is no "separation of church and state"
> in a Roman Res Publica. Consul Albucius has placed himself in a struggle
> against the State, against the Res Publica, and therefore against the
> Quirites, too. He does so by trying to bend the laws and by his attempts to
> usurp powers not previously held by any consul in Nova Roma.
> > >
> > > On the augural matters, questions have been raised, and only one needs
> to be found valid to disallow the consul's tripudia. And I can raise still
> other questions, such as whether a tripudium is a correct method of
> auspicando to use for a comitia. Tripudia were used in the field by
> generals. There are examples where generals set aside the results of
> tripudia, and paid the consequences for their actions. But there is no
> example of anyone putting aside the result of an auspicium ex avibus. A
> tripudium is a lesser form of auspication and not the preferred form for use
> in considering whether a comitia may be called. The only example of a
> tripudium attempted for a similar case is the Greek source that mentions a
> tripudium attempted for Ti. Gracchus before holding a plebeian consilium.
> And in that example the chickens refused to come out of their cage, possibly
> because tripudia were not intended for comitia or consilia.
> > >
> > > Anyway, as I said before, the earlier tripudia performed by the consul
> have been under review. He should not continue in his manner before a
> decision has been made by the Collegium Augurum.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > C. Petronius M. Moravio s.p.d.,
> > > >
> > > > You sent on the main list a true course of the augural art, but I
> wonder if the result of this public lesson given to the consul Albucius
> should not lead a new struggle of powers, the civil one against the
> religious one.
> > > >
> > > > I think that this public lesson was not very useful nor very delicate
> and I fear that you made Albucius more opposed to find a compromise with
> you.
> > > >
> > > > I am not an augur but I guess that we will have soon many difficults
> ro regain the pax deorum on Nova Roma.
> > > >
> > > > Optime vale.
> > > >
> > > > C. Petronius Dexter
> > > > Arcoiali scribebat
> > > > a. d. XII Kalendas Quintiles P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It's typical. I would be shocked if TPTB actually had another reaction!
They are typical.

Though it did not stop me from giving a copy of the dissertation I found to
the Piscinus.

Vale,

Sulla

On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 11:14 AM, gualterus_graecus <waltms1@...>wrote:

>
>
>
> Salvete,
>
> It seems that our civis Maior has conveniently forgotten the fact that for
> last year's NR conventus I submitted a paper on the mechanics of augury to
> be read by the attendants (which then, as is still now, a work in progress).
> It was my goal to start a dialogue on the subject, but instead my effort
> seemed to be ill-received since I did not even get a single comment from
> some of the people who were supposed to read it (including Piscinus).
>
> Now, a year later, Piscinus attempts to publicly condemn a consul for
> making errors, and in the process himself fumbles in half of his arguments.
> So, is Maior suggesting that I should have quietly and privately offered my
> comments while Piscinus takes the opportunity to publicly attack one of our
> curule magistrates? I can only characterize such an attitude as unjust and
> immoral.
>
> Valete,
>
> Gualterus
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "rory12001" <rory12001@...> wrote:
> >
> > Salvete Quirites;
> >
> > typical, M. Moravius Piscinus is one of the few studying augural texts
> and with his own auguraculum. I was fortunate to be with him when he
> established on at A. Sempronius Regulus', another civis who left over the
> incessant political fighting.
> >
> > Instead of helping Piscinus, Graecus and his buddies, Cato, Sulla et al.
> from the BA only exist to tear things down. Regulus told me he received an
> email that Piscinus and I would be gone from Nova Roma.
> >
> > They create nothing, they do nothing but criticize and chase cives away;
> they are sterile and that's their vision of Nova Roma.
> > valete
> > M. Hortensia Maior
> >
> > -:
> > >
> > >
> > > Salve,
> > >
> > > You state "On the augural matters, questions have been raised, and only
> one needs to be found valid to disallow the consul's tripudia" and I agree
> with this. But, what I find far more disturbing is that you, as the most
> respected and principal augur of NR, have committed so many errors in your
> analysis of consul Albucius' auspicium.
> > >
> > > Is there a single Augur in Nova Roma that can be fully trusted in his
> analysis of the sources? I am skeptical. The situation is disturbing and
> unfortunate.
> > >
> > > I call on you to give an account for the errors you have committed in
> your analysis of Albucius' auspicium. If Albucius, someone who is not a
> professional in the art, is to be condemned for his imperfect execution of
> auspicium, then all the more should you be condemned for voicing poorly
> argued and invalid criticisms of his actions.
> > >
> > > Vale,
> > >
> > > Gualterus Graecus
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "marcushoratius" <MHoratius@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > M. Moravius C. Petronio s. p. d.
> > > >
> > > > By Res Publica is meant the Pax Deorum. The Gods are part of our
> community and therefore part of our State; They are not separate from it. I
> agree that some struggle has been initiated by Consul Albucius in his
> attempt to sidestep the Collegium and separate civil authorities from their
> religious responsibilities. But there is no "separation of church and state"
> in a Roman Res Publica. Consul Albucius has placed himself in a struggle
> against the State, against the Res Publica, and therefore against the
> Quirites, too. He does so by trying to bend the laws and by his attempts to
> usurp powers not previously held by any consul in Nova Roma.
> > > >
> > > > On the augural matters, questions have been raised, and only one
> needs to be found valid to disallow the consul's tripudia. And I can raise
> still other questions, such as whether a tripudium is a correct method of
> auspicando to use for a comitia. Tripudia were used in the field by
> generals. There are examples where generals set aside the results of
> tripudia, and paid the consequences for their actions. But there is no
> example of anyone putting aside the result of an auspicium ex avibus. A
> tripudium is a lesser form of auspication and not the preferred form for use
> in considering whether a comitia may be called. The only example of a
> tripudium attempted for a similar case is the Greek source that mentions a
> tripudium attempted for Ti. Gracchus before holding a plebeian consilium.
> And in that example the chickens refused to come out of their cage, possibly
> because tripudia were not intended for comitia or consilia.
> > > >
> > > > Anyway, as I said before, the earlier tripudia performed by the
> consul have been under review. He should not continue in his manner before a
> decision has been made by the Collegium Augurum.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > C. Petronius M. Moravio s.p.d.,
> > > > >
> > > > > You sent on the main list a true course of the augural art, but I
> wonder if the result of this public lesson given to the consul Albucius
> should not lead a new struggle of powers, the civil one against the
> religious one.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think that this public lesson was not very useful nor very
> delicate and I fear that you made Albucius more opposed to find a compromise
> with you.
> > > > >
> > > > > I am not an augur but I guess that we will have soon many
> difficults ro regain the pax deorum on Nova Roma.
> > > > >
> > > > > Optime vale.
> > > > >
> > > > > C. Petronius Dexter
> > > > > Arcoiali scribebat
> > > > > a. d. XII Kalendas Quintiles P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete Omnes;

As this is a day where thinking of what one's father means is
emphasized, I did so...

Valete - Venator

--------------------------------------------

My Fathers’ Son

I am in truth my fathers’ son
Born of a long and storied line
Not one of whom was grand or famed
But all became the man I am

In life they strived to build their weal
To help their own, to ward their homes
In life they strived for Kin and kith
That Worth might come and make their name

We find that we have many roles
Which come to us within our years
Child, sibling, partner, parent
Friend or foe, teacher or taught

Upon my hand there is a ring
White gold it is, plain thin and old
It sat upon my father’s hand
A sign of Troth when he was wed

He was a man who seldom spoke
But words he gave were rich and wise
He was a man who seemed withdrawn
But gave of self when need was there

His work was hard, his days were long
But seldom did he stay away
From home and hearth, from wife and kids
He knew his place was in our lives

And as years passed, the world did change
But not his care for family
Nor for his friends, or for his deeds
As he worked in community

He lived to see his children wed
Some well, some not, but all survived
And from this he saw grandchildren
To carry on the long Kin-line

And at the end of all his years
When illness laid him weak and low
He took the hit, but carried on
And sang his last few days away

And as we stood on sacred grounds
Where kin-bones slept beneath the sod
And as we laid him in his grave
My thoughts flew high, and far and wide

I looked to hills he loved to roam
Beneath the trees beside the stream
A place he shared with many boys
My sib and I foremost of these

So long old scout, your time has come
To walk those trails, unseen, unknown
Beyond the bounds of daily life
A new frontier to seek and see

I am in truth my fathers’ son
Born of a long and storied line
Not one of whom was grand or famed
But all became the man I am

In life they strived to build their weal
To help their own, to ward their home
In life they strived for Kin and kith
That Worth might come and make their name

Cato Petronio Dextero sal.

I think in this case it would be Metellus seeking assistance from "the State" in the form of the office of the consuls. The consuls represent the State as the highest office with imperium granted by the People.

Vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@...> wrote:
>
> C. Petronius C. Catoni s.p.d.,
>
> > It appears that you are correct; the Constitution does not seem to make allowance for the absence of *both* praetors.
> > However, a case might be made for action being taken under this provision in the Constitution:
> > "The right to seek and receive assistance and advice from the State in matters of religious and social disputes occurring both within and outside the direct jurisdiction of Nova Roma;" (Const N.R. II.B.7)
>
> Ok, but this sentence is ambiguous, what is the State? Is one magistrate the State? Indeed, he is not. So the assistance and advice from the State must be assistance or advice given by the Comitia or by the Senate.
>
> Vale.
>
> C. Petronius Dexter
> Arcoiali scribebat
> a. d. XII Kalendas Quintiles P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
>

Salve, Venii,

as always, very beautiful, and extremely moving. thank you for your gift to
all of us!

Vale bene,
C. Maria Caeca

C. Petronius M. Hortensiae s.p.d.,

> the Roman ideal is endowed in our other consul K.Fabeo Buteo Quintillianus; Flamen and Consul. In ancient Rome high magistrates were always religious officials. To be augur was considered the summit of public life.

My subject was not about the secularism or not of the magistrates, neither to make comparation between the good and the evil...

> P. Memmius for his own reasons is trying to secularize Nova Roma, but Nova Roma isn't France where this debate is meaningful, nor is it Britian or the United States, Brasil or Mexico....

I disagree with you about that, if consul Albucius tried to secularize Nova Roma, as you say, why he made a tripudium and sent a report?

> As it says on our front page we're here to reconstruct republican religion, virtues, culture.
> And the authority of the augurs, especially when they spoke as a College is was one all Romans respected and obeyed.

So?...

Vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
a. d. XII Kalendas Quintiles P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.

This has got to be the SILLIEST thing ever typed in the NR ML!

Maior were you laughing as you typed this? Because I cannot see anyone
typing this in a straight face!

Vale,

Sulla

On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 8:58 AM, rory12001 <rory12001@...> wrote:

>
>
> M.Hortensia M. Moravio C. Petronio spd;
>
> the Roman ideal is endowed in our other consul K.Fabeo Buteo Quintillianus;
> Flamen and Consul. In ancient Rome high magistrates were always religious
> officials. To be augur was considered the summit of public life.
>
> P. Memmius for his own reasons is trying to secularize Nova Roma, but Nova
> Roma isn't France where this debate is meaningful, nor is it Britian or the
> United States, Brasil or Mexico....
>
> As it says on our front page we're here to reconstruct republican religion,
> virtues, culture.
>
> And the authority of the augurs, especially when they spoke as a College is
> was one all Romans respected and obeyed.
>
> vale
> M. Hortensia Maior
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "marcushoratius" <MHoratius@...> wrote:
> >
> > M. Moravius C. Petronio s. p. d.
> >
> > By Res Publica is meant the Pax Deorum. The Gods are part of our
> community and therefore part of our State; They are not separate from it. I
> agree that some struggle has been initiated by Consul Albucius in his
> attempt to sidestep the Collegium and separate civil authorities from their
> religious responsibilities. But there is no "separation of church and state"
> in a Roman Res Publica. Consul Albucius has placed himself in a struggle
> against the State, against the Res Publica, and therefore against the
> Quirites, too. He does so by trying to bend the laws and by his attempts to
> usurp powers not previously held by any consul in Nova Roma.
> >
> > On the augural matters, questions have been raised, and only one needs to
> be found valid to disallow the consul's tripudia. And I can raise still
> other questions, such as whether a tripudium is a correct method of
> auspicando to use for a comitia. Tripudia were used in the field by
> generals. There are examples where generals set aside the results of
> tripudia, and paid the consequences for their actions. But there is no
> example of anyone putting aside the result of an auspicium ex avibus. A
> tripudium is a lesser form of auspication and not the preferred form for use
> in considering whether a comitia may be called. The only example of a
> tripudium attempted for a similar case is the Greek source that mentions a
> tripudium attempted for Ti. Gracchus before holding a plebeian consilium.
> And in that example the chickens refused to come out of their cage, possibly
> because tripudia were not intended for comitia or consilia.
> >
> > Anyway, as I said before, the earlier tripudia performed by the consul
> have been under review. He should not continue in his manner before a
> decision has been made by the Collegium Augurum.
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@> wrote:
> > >
> > > C. Petronius M. Moravio s.p.d.,
> > >
> > > You sent on the main list a true course of the augural art, but I
> wonder if the result of this public lesson given to the consul Albucius
> should not lead a new struggle of powers, the civil one against the
> religious one.
> > >
> > > I think that this public lesson was not very useful nor very delicate
> and I fear that you made Albucius more opposed to find a compromise with
> you.
> > >
> > > I am not an augur but I guess that we will have soon many difficults ro
> regain the pax deorum on Nova Roma.
> > >
> > > Optime vale.
> > >
> > > C. Petronius Dexter
> > > Arcoiali scribebat
> > > a. d. XII Kalendas Quintiles P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
> > >
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Venii,

I thank you for this. Father's day can be a tough day for me, but today this has helped make it better.

Vale,

Julia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator <famila.ulleria.venii@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete Omnes;
>
> As this is a day where thinking of what one's father means is
> emphasized, I did so...
>
> Valete - Venator
>
> --------------------------------------------
>
> My Fathers' Son
>
> I am in truth my fathers' son
> Born of a long and storied line
> Not one of whom was grand or famed
> But all became the man I am
>
> In life they strived to build their weal
> To help their own, to ward their homes
> In life they strived for Kin and kith
> That Worth might come and make their name
>
> We find that we have many roles
> Which come to us within our years
> Child, sibling, partner, parent
> Friend or foe, teacher or taught
>
> Upon my hand there is a ring
> White gold it is, plain thin and old
> It sat upon my father's hand
> A sign of Troth when he was wed
>
> He was a man who seldom spoke
> But words he gave were rich and wise
> He was a man who seemed withdrawn
> But gave of self when need was there
>
> His work was hard, his days were long
> But seldom did he stay away
> From home and hearth, from wife and kids
> He knew his place was in our lives
>
> And as years passed, the world did change
> But not his care for family
> Nor for his friends, or for his deeds
> As he worked in community
>
> He lived to see his children wed
> Some well, some not, but all survived
> And from this he saw grandchildren
> To carry on the long Kin-line
>
> And at the end of all his years
> When illness laid him weak and low
> He took the hit, but carried on
> And sang his last few days away
>
> And as we stood on sacred grounds
> Where kin-bones slept beneath the sod
> And as we laid him in his grave
> My thoughts flew high, and far and wide
>
> I looked to hills he loved to roam
> Beneath the trees beside the stream
> A place he shared with many boys
> My sib and I foremost of these
>
> So long old scout, your time has come
> To walk those trails, unseen, unknown
> Beyond the bounds of daily life
> A new frontier to seek and see
>
> I am in truth my fathers' son
> Born of a long and storied line
> Not one of whom was grand or famed
> But all became the man I am
>
> In life they strived to build their weal
> To help their own, to ward their home
> In life they strived for Kin and kith
> That Worth might come and make their name
>

Cato Piscino sal.

In general, I agree, but there is a key ingredient missing in your argument.

The tabularium (not the Constitution) in the lex Salicia gives the mechanism by which the praetors will run trials - but it does *not* say that the consuls *cannot* do so.

The Constitution gives the consuls full imperium, which under the lex Equitia gives them the authority to fully interpret Nova Roman law. .

Therefore, it could be reasonably argued that the consuls, seeing that the praetors are unable to fulfill their mission as laid out in the lex Salicia (since there aren't any praetors), could simply assume the judicial powers of the praetors in order to fulfill the requirements that the Constitution lays out in response to a citizen's right to seek assistance.

This is *not* the US, and the lines between judicial and executive are not nearly as clear as you seem to think they are.

Vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "marcushoratius" <MHoratius@...> wrote:
>
> Piscinus Catone salutem
>
> The question is not whether a Citizen may bring a suit or seek assistance. Surely Metellus may bring a suit if he wishes. The previous review of the Tribuni Plebis was whether a consul could hold a tribunal. That question was raised by a prator, Ti. Galerius at the time. And what the Tribuni found was that the Constitution, current laws, and previous practice held that only praetores can conduct tribunals, and no where was authority given to consuls to hold tribunals. That is the reason why I, when consul afterward, brought suit before the praetors to defend the authority of the Senate and consuls to administrate. Disagree with what my suit involved, but there again the precedent is that a consul may not conduct a tribunal on his own volition. It would allow consuls to have too great a power if they did not have to go before praetors and tribunals to press their case.
>
> It is the same in the US and in the law of other countries of the Americas, Europe and elsewhere. The executive power that administrates is separate from the judicial powers. If federal regulations are violated, the executive administration goes before a federal court to hear its case. The executive does not conduct its own tribunal to enforce its regulations. It is a separation of powers based on the constitution and practice of Roma antiqua. The argument might be raised that in Roma antiqua consuls could hold tribunals, but this is Nova Roma and when that argument was raised before the Tribuni still found that Nova Roma law does not provide such authority to our consuls.
>
> As there are no praetores at the moment, Metellus' lawsuit will have to await election of new praetores. This is the same as when a suit is rejected by praetores and the citizen may await the election of new praetors before bringing suit. There is no hurry that justifies expedited proceedings, or that would allow a consul to take powers restricted to praetors.
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> >
> > Cato Piscino sal.
> >
> > It appears that you are correct; the Constitution does not seem to make allowance for the absence of *both* praetors.
> >
> > However, a case might be made for action being taken under this provision in the Constitution:
> >
> > "The right to seek and receive assistance and advice from the State in matters of religious and social disputes occurring both within and outside the direct jurisdiction of Nova Roma;" (Const N.R. II.B.7)
> >
> > This is certainly a dispute and it occurs within the direct jurisdiction of the Respublica. Whether it could be considered a "social" dispute may be a question, but I would think that it is as it involves abuse of the offices which help define us as a society, or social group.
> >
> > And remember that no law may restrict this right as the Constitution is supreme, no matter what a lex may say.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Cato
> >
>

And the Africans start to lay with Machetes!

3-1 BRA

But it did not help !

3:1 For BRAZIL





________________________________
From: Aqvillivs <c.aqvillivs_rota@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, June 20, 2010 10:17:07 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] BRA-IVORY COAST


And the Africans start to lay with Machetes!

3-1 BRA







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear list members, salvete!

Being fond of classical culture I had long been looking for some reenactments groups, but this seems like a lost cause here in Denmark, where Vikings are obviously much trendier. However, by chance, I found the Nova Roma website! At first I was about to step back when I read the background idea, but thinking it through I realized that the whole thing is real great. Therefore I decided to apply for citizenship. I have also joined this list a few days ago and I think I ought to send a greeting mail instead of just sitting and reading other people's postings. I am clearly still a long way from full citizenship, but I would very much like starting some Roman handicraft activity. Not that I pretend being able to reach any valuable result, but I feel it as a kind of spiritual communion with those people who forged our culture so many centuries ago. My dream is to work with glassware, but I have to be a bit realist: building a stone furnace in my (not very large) garden will be a challenge, so I may have to try something less invasive like for example gem stone carving or small scale metal work. Since I have no practical background in these type of activities (I am a material's scientist in a technical university) I would love to hear from anybody, who is involved in some kind of artistic creation activity in order to get advice and inspiration.

With kind regards from the Thule Province.

Valete bene

M. Claudius Turdus (Jean-Claude Grivel)

C. Equitius Cato M. Claudio Turdo sal.

Great to hear and welcome to our Roman republic. There's a lot of stuff that goes on and you will be pleasantly surprised by some of the answers you'll probably get.

Vale bene,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "jcgrivel" <jcgrivel@...> wrote:
>
> Dear list members, salvete!
>
> Being fond of classical culture I had long been looking for some reenactments groups, but this seems like a lost cause here in Denmark, where Vikings are obviously much trendier. However, by chance, I found the Nova Roma website! At first I was about to step back when I read the background idea, but thinking it through I realized that the whole thing is real great. Therefore I decided to apply for citizenship. I have also joined this list a few days ago and I think I ought to send a greeting mail instead of just sitting and reading other people's postings. I am clearly still a long way from full citizenship, but I would very much like starting some Roman handicraft activity. Not that I pretend being able to reach any valuable result, but I feel it as a kind of spiritual communion with those people who forged our culture so many centuries ago. My dream is to work with glassware, but I have to be a bit realist: building a stone furnace in my (not very large) garden will be a challenge, so I may have to try something less invasive like for example gem stone carving or small scale metal work. Since I have no practical background in these type of activities (I am a material's scientist in a technical university) I would love to hear from anybody, who is involved in some kind of artistic creation activity in order to get advice and inspiration.
>
> With kind regards from the Thule Province.
>
> Valete bene
>
> M. Claudius Turdus (Jean-Claude Grivel)
>

C. Maria Caeca M. Claudio to do S. P. D.

Welcome to Nova Roma! There is an enormous amount here, but may I suggest you might want to start with the list dedicated to helping new cives orient themselves? I is the Newroman list, and you can subscribe by sending an email to NewRoman-subscribe@yahoogroups.com There, you will find other new citizens and many long time members who have agreed to help in any way they can.

Another thing you might want to investigate, in terms of handwork, would be mosaics. the tools are relatively simple, and often the materials are commercially available, too ...so you wouldn't need to take on something that requires a fairly massive construction project, at least at first.

Meanwhile, please do poke around ...stat with our web site, and go from there!

Again, welcome, and I hope your stay with us will prove both valuable and pleasurable to you!

Vale bene,
C.. Maia Caeca

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lentulus omnibus sal.

Just a very short comment on the debate.

Romans, let them be New or Old, have the consuls in whom the full state power is invested. The consuls inherited the powers of the kings, the power of the consuls is a royal power. It is indicated by the royal 12 number of lictors, the royal purple, the royal sella curulis. This huge power was why the Romans felt compelled to divide this power by electing two (and not one) consuls. So for the Romans, division of power was not done through division of branches of the power, but division through the number of the persons who held it. This enormous kingly power was then further divided, and restricted by creating the office of the tribunes of the plebs.

All other magistrates are, however, deriving their power from the consular power. All other magistrates are off springs, parts cut down, of the consular office. The praetors are the consuls' deputy in the court, the censors are the consuls' deputy during the census, and the aediles are the consuls' deputy for city maintenance. Later these offices became more independent, but for all legal purposes, their secondary position and inferiority in the chain of command was clearly distinguished.

So, in fact, it is not the consul who substitutes the praetors, but the praetors are always substituting the consuls, and the power they use is actually the consuls' power. It's just a traditional agreement and custom for the consuls not to interfere the praetors in dealing with the courts. But they can if they want - and they by all means can and shall if there is a necessity for this, namely, the absence of the praetors. So yes, and yes: a consul can run trials in a Roman community - if we are one.


Valete optimé, ut semper!



--- Dom 20/6/10, Cato <catoinnyc@...> ha scritto:

Da: Cato <catoinnyc@...>
Oggetto: [Nova-Roma] Call to Tribuni Plebis for intercessio: Re: Comitia centuriata call edict
A: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Data: Domenica 20 giugno 2010, 22:03







 









Cato Piscino sal.



In general, I agree, but there is a key ingredient missing in your argument.



The tabularium (not the Constitution) in the lex Salicia gives the mechanism by which the praetors will run trials - but it does *not* say that the consuls *cannot* do so.



The Constitution gives the consuls full imperium, which under the lex Equitia gives them the authority to fully interpret Nova Roman law. .



Therefore, it could be reasonably argued that the consuls, seeing that the praetors are unable to fulfill their mission as laid out in the lex Salicia (since there aren't any praetors), could simply assume the judicial powers of the praetors in order to fulfill the requirements that the Constitution lays out in response to a citizen's right to seek assistance.



This is *not* the US, and the lines between judicial and executive are not nearly as clear as you seem to think they are.



Vale,



Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "marcushoratius" <MHoratius@...> wrote:

>

> Piscinus Catone salutem

>

> The question is not whether a Citizen may bring a suit or seek assistance. Surely Metellus may bring a suit if he wishes. The previous review of the Tribuni Plebis was whether a consul could hold a tribunal. That question was raised by a prator, Ti. Galerius at the time. And what the Tribuni found was that the Constitution, current laws, and previous practice held that only praetores can conduct tribunals, and no where was authority given to consuls to hold tribunals. That is the reason why I, when consul afterward, brought suit before the praetors to defend the authority of the Senate and consuls to administrate. Disagree with what my suit involved, but there again the precedent is that a consul may not conduct a tribunal on his own volition. It would allow consuls to have too great a power if they did not have to go before praetors and tribunals to press their case.

>

> It is the same in the US and in the law of other countries of the Americas, Europe and elsewhere. The executive power that administrates is separate from the judicial powers. If federal regulations are violated, the executive administration goes before a federal court to hear its case. The executive does not conduct its own tribunal to enforce its regulations. It is a separation of powers based on the constitution and practice of Roma antiqua. The argument might be raised that in Roma antiqua consuls could hold tribunals, but this is Nova Roma and when that argument was raised before the Tribuni still found that Nova Roma law does not provide such authority to our consuls.

>

> As there are no praetores at the moment, Metellus' lawsuit will have to await election of new praetores. This is the same as when a suit is rejected by praetores and the citizen may await the election of new praetors before bringing suit. There is no hurry that justifies expedited proceedings, or that would allow a consul to take powers restricted to praetors.

>

>

>

> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@> wrote:

> >

> > Cato Piscino sal.

> >

> > It appears that you are correct; the Constitution does not seem to make allowance for the absence of *both* praetors.

> >

> > However, a case might be made for action being taken under this provision in the Constitution:

> >

> > "The right to seek and receive assistance and advice from the State in matters of religious and social disputes occurring both within and outside the direct jurisdiction of Nova Roma;" (Const N.R. II.B.7)

> >

> > This is certainly a dispute and it occurs within the direct jurisdiction of the Respublica. Whether it could be considered a "social" dispute may be a question, but I would think that it is as it involves abuse of the offices which help define us as a society, or social group.

> >

> > And remember that no law may restrict this right as the Constitution is supreme, no matter what a lex may say.

> >

> > Vale,

> >

> > Cato

> >

>

























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

M. Hortensia Quiritibus spd

Vox Romana podcaste needs podcasters, if you are interested in working for us, reporting the classical news please reply to me.
optime vale
M. Hortensia Maior, Producer
http://www.insulaumbra.com/voxromana/

Salvete;
I enjoyed your paper Graecus, why didn't you volunteer to help the augurs. I don't know what you expected?

The work I have done, sending the augurs scholarly articles, gets no feedback, as I don't engage in discussions of augural law. You have to go offer to help and actively work with others. That's what I suggest you do like going to the Conventus. You would have met Piscinus, myself, Scholastica, made friends and actually participated in a ritual; taking auspices!

that's what we're all about; research and reality
vale
M. Hortensia Maior

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gualterus_graecus" <waltms1@...> wrote:
>
>
> Salvete,
>
> It seems that our civis Maior has conveniently forgotten the fact that for last year's NR conventus I submitted a paper on the mechanics of augury to be read by the attendants (which then, as is still now, a work in progress). It was my goal to start a dialogue on the subject, but instead my effort seemed to be ill-received since I did not even get a single comment from some of the people who were supposed to read it (including Piscinus).
>
> Now, a year later, Piscinus attempts to publicly condemn a consul for making errors, and in the process himself fumbles in half of his arguments. So, is Maior suggesting that I should have quietly and privately offered my comments while Piscinus takes the opportunity to publicly attack one of our curule magistrates? I can only characterize such an attitude as unjust and immoral.
>
> Valete,
>
> Gualterus
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> >
> > Salvete Quirites;
> >
> > typical, M. Moravius Piscinus is one of the few studying augural texts and with his own auguraculum. I was fortunate to be with him when he established on at A. Sempronius Regulus', another civis who left over the incessant political fighting.
> >
> > Instead of helping Piscinus, Graecus and his buddies, Cato, Sulla et al. from the BA only exist to tear things down. Regulus told me he received an email that Piscinus and I would be gone from Nova Roma.
> >
> > They create nothing, they do nothing but criticize and chase cives away; they are sterile and that's their vision of Nova Roma.
> > valete
> > M. Hortensia Maior
> >
> > -:
> > >
> > >
> > > Salve,
> > >
> > > You state "On the augural matters, questions have been raised, and only one needs to be found valid to disallow the consul's tripudia" and I agree with this. But, what I find far more disturbing is that you, as the most respected and principal augur of NR, have committed so many errors in your analysis of consul Albucius' auspicium.
> > >
> > > Is there a single Augur in Nova Roma that can be fully trusted in his analysis of the sources? I am skeptical. The situation is disturbing and unfortunate.
> > >
> > > I call on you to give an account for the errors you have committed in your analysis of Albucius' auspicium. If Albucius, someone who is not a professional in the art, is to be condemned for his imperfect execution of auspicium, then all the more should you be condemned for voicing poorly argued and invalid criticisms of his actions.
> > >
> > > Vale,
> > >
> > > Gualterus Graecus
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "marcushoratius" <MHoratius@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > M. Moravius C. Petronio s. p. d.
> > > >
> > > > By Res Publica is meant the Pax Deorum. The Gods are part of our community and therefore part of our State; They are not separate from it. I agree that some struggle has been initiated by Consul Albucius in his attempt to sidestep the Collegium and separate civil authorities from their religious responsibilities. But there is no "separation of church and state" in a Roman Res Publica. Consul Albucius has placed himself in a struggle against the State, against the Res Publica, and therefore against the Quirites, too. He does so by trying to bend the laws and by his attempts to usurp powers not previously held by any consul in Nova Roma.
> > > >
> > > > On the augural matters, questions have been raised, and only one needs to be found valid to disallow the consul's tripudia. And I can raise still other questions, such as whether a tripudium is a correct method of auspicando to use for a comitia. Tripudia were used in the field by generals. There are examples where generals set aside the results of tripudia, and paid the consequences for their actions. But there is no example of anyone putting aside the result of an auspicium ex avibus. A tripudium is a lesser form of auspication and not the preferred form for use in considering whether a comitia may be called. The only example of a tripudium attempted for a similar case is the Greek source that mentions a tripudium attempted for Ti. Gracchus before holding a plebeian consilium. And in that example the chickens refused to come out of their cage, possibly because tripudia were not intended for comitia or consilia.
> > > >
> > > > Anyway, as I said before, the earlier tripudia performed by the consul have been under review. He should not continue in his manner before a decision has been made by the Collegium Augurum.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > C. Petronius M. Moravio s.p.d.,
> > > > >
> > > > > You sent on the main list a true course of the augural art, but I wonder if the result of this public lesson given to the consul Albucius should not lead a new struggle of powers, the civil one against the religious one.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think that this public lesson was not very useful nor very delicate and I fear that you made Albucius more opposed to find a compromise with you.
> > > > >
> > > > > I am not an augur but I guess that we will have soon many difficults ro regain the pax deorum on Nova Roma.
> > > > >
> > > > > Optime vale.
> > > > >
> > > > > C. Petronius Dexter
> > > > > Arcoiali scribebat
> > > > > a. d. XII Kalendas Quintiles P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Salve Turde;
L. Livia Plauta from Pannonia is very interested in experimental archeology. And she has done clothes dying for tunica etc with natural dyes.
I read a book on Roman and Greek perfume-making. I beleive they had stills as well. You just need bushels of flowers.

optime vale
Maior

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "jcgrivel" <jcgrivel@...> wrote:
>
> Dear list members, salvete!
>
> Being fond of classical culture I had long been looking for some reenactments groups, but this seems like a lost cause here in Denmark, where Vikings are obviously much trendier. However, by chance, I found the Nova Roma website! At first I was about to step back when I read the background idea, but thinking it through I realized that the whole thing is real great. Therefore I decided to apply for citizenship. I have also joined this list a few days ago and I think I ought to send a greeting mail instead of just sitting and reading other people's postings. I am clearly still a long way from full citizenship, but I would very much like starting some Roman handicraft activity. Not that I pretend being able to reach any valuable result, but I feel it as a kind of spiritual communion with those people who forged our culture so many centuries ago. My dream is to work with glassware, but I have to be a bit realist: building a stone furnace in my (not very large) garden will be a challenge, so I may have to try something less invasive like for example gem stone carving or small scale metal work. Since I have no practical background in these type of activities (I am a material's scientist in a technical university) I would love to hear from anybody, who is involved in some kind of artistic creation activity in order to get advice and inspiration.
>
> With kind regards from the Thule Province.
>
> Valete bene
>
> M. Claudius Turdus (Jean-Claude Grivel)
>

Cato Maiori sal.

Silly, silly Maior...

Should we also then say that *you* are "from the BA" - because you were there all the time until you got thrown out for breaking its rules? That seems to be a pattern for you, breaking rules and then whining because you get caught and then blaming everyone else for your mistakes.

Shall we talk about Regulus and your plan to institute a dictatorship?

Vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete Quirites;
>
> typical, M. Moravius Piscinus is one of the few studying augural texts and with his own auguraculum. I was fortunate to be with him when he established on at A. Sempronius Regulus', another civis who left over the incessant political fighting.
>
> Instead of helping Piscinus, Graecus and his buddies, Cato, Sulla et al. from the BA only exist to tear things down. Regulus told me he received an email that Piscinus and I would be gone from Nova Roma.
>
> They create nothing, they do nothing but criticize and chase cives away; they are sterile and that's their vision of Nova Roma.
> valete
> M. Hortensia Maior
>
> -:
> >
> >
> > Salve,
> >
> > You state "On the augural matters, questions have been raised, and only one needs to be found valid to disallow the consul's tripudia" and I agree with this. But, what I find far more disturbing is that you, as the most respected and principal augur of NR, have committed so many errors in your analysis of consul Albucius' auspicium.
> >
> > Is there a single Augur in Nova Roma that can be fully trusted in his analysis of the sources? I am skeptical. The situation is disturbing and unfortunate.
> >
> > I call on you to give an account for the errors you have committed in your analysis of Albucius' auspicium. If Albucius, someone who is not a professional in the art, is to be condemned for his imperfect execution of auspicium, then all the more should you be condemned for voicing poorly argued and invalid criticisms of his actions.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Gualterus Graecus
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "marcushoratius" <MHoratius@> wrote:
> > >
> > > M. Moravius C. Petronio s. p. d.
> > >
> > > By Res Publica is meant the Pax Deorum. The Gods are part of our community and therefore part of our State; They are not separate from it. I agree that some struggle has been initiated by Consul Albucius in his attempt to sidestep the Collegium and separate civil authorities from their religious responsibilities. But there is no "separation of church and state" in a Roman Res Publica. Consul Albucius has placed himself in a struggle against the State, against the Res Publica, and therefore against the Quirites, too. He does so by trying to bend the laws and by his attempts to usurp powers not previously held by any consul in Nova Roma.
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> > > On the augural matters, questions have been raised, and only one needs to be found valid to disallow the consul's tripudia. And I can raise still other questions, such as whether a tripudium is a correct method of auspicando to use for a comitia. Tripudia were used in the field by generals. There are examples where generals set aside the results of tripudia, and paid the consequences for their actions. But there is no example of anyone putting aside the result of an auspicium ex avibus. A tripudium is a lesser form of auspication and not the preferred form for use in considering whether a comitia may be called. The only example of a tripudium attempted for a similar case is the Greek source that mentions a tripudium attempted for Ti. Gracchus before holding a plebeian consilium. And in that example the chickens refused to come out of their cage, possibly because tripudia were not intended for comitia or consilia.
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> > > Anyway, as I said before, the earlier tripudia performed by the consul have been under review. He should not continue in his manner before a decision has been made by the Collegium Augurum.
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> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@> wrote:
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> > > > C. Petronius M. Moravio s.p.d.,
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> > > > You sent on the main list a true course of the augural art, but I wonder if the result of this public lesson given to the consul Albucius should not lead a new struggle of powers, the civil one against the religious one.
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> > > > I think that this public lesson was not very useful nor very delicate and I fear that you made Albucius more opposed to find a compromise with you.
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> > > > I am not an augur but I guess that we will have soon many difficults ro regain the pax deorum on Nova Roma.
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> > > > Optime vale.
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> > > > C. Petronius Dexter
> > > > Arcoiali scribebat
> > > > a. d. XII Kalendas Quintiles P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
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