Salve,

I find it very difficult to accept the assertions here. Firstly, it isn't hard to "maintain their citizenship" since they don't have to do anything; they simply have to not resign and then one every two years say "yes, I'm a citizen". Also, you state that "...a great many citizens... are active in the real life, attend our events, our lectures, our public ritual", but how many exactly? Do you really think it's 900+? Indeed, during a census are they asked what activities or groups they participate in? Are they asked what the last thing is that they've done for NR and when it was?

Nova Roma's presence online isn't just the ML and politics. There are a great deal many other NR lists with religious and other topics and if so many cives were actively floating around you'd suspect there would be evidence of it; I've not seen it.

So, I will stick to my 200+ number because, in the end, the number who pay taxes seem to most realistically represent the active component of NR until such a time as when there is good empirical evidence to the contrary. Appealing to an NR technical definition for "active" shouldn't be an excuse to delude ourselves about the real meaning of the word and what it says about NR's health. Historically, being registered in the census meant travel to Rome; today, responding to an email is NOT indicative of the same sort of civic commitment, so I simply cannot take it seriously for being "active" in the absence of other hard evidence.

Vale,

Gualterus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cn. Cornelius Lentulus" <cn_corn_lent@...> wrote:
>
> Cn. Lentulus Q. Maximo sal.
>
>
> >>> Define Active Citizen, Cornelius <<<
>
>
> Active citizens in Nova Roma are classified those citizens who maintain their citizenship, respond to the census, confirming their confession as Nova Roman citizens. Among them there are who play an active role in the civic life of Nova Roma, either in the provinces, or in the central activities, either in the real life, or in the cyberspace.
>
> For example, a great many citizens of Italia, Provincia Sarmatia, Provincia Pannonia, Dacia and in many other citizens in America and elsewhere, are active in the real life, attend our events, our lectures, our public rituals, but do not desire to take part in the central politics, so they don't pay taxes.
>
> I think many of our capite censi are hundred times more useful citizens and vital part of Nova Roma than some of the assidui.
>
> I think the Roman based model of having capite censi as non-taxpayer social class is one of the greatest idea in Nova Roma. That we have a 900+ crowd of people who feel in some extent (some more than the assidui some less) connected to Nova Roma. These people bring the name of Nova Roma with themselves and many of them help us to prosper, by participating, listening, by self-identifying as Nova Romans.
>
> And this costs us nothing. They are in one century, they don't take away power from the taxpayer. By having them, we get something from them, while we did not loose anything, nor money, nor political power, nothing.
>
>
> >>> # 285 PROVISIONAL CITIZENS
>
> QFM: Oh I find this really hard to believe. These numbers have responded in full? <<<<
>
>
> Provisional citizens, these are the applicants for NR citizenship CURRENTLY. They will be full citizens after the 90 days probationary period.
>
>
> >>>> If you sign up then disappear you are a civvy in name only. <<<
>
>
> Those who sign up and disappear will be marked as disappeared (officially called "socii").
>
> We have currently 1615 disappeared citizens, who are officially called "socii". These were once full citizens, but did not respond the census.
>
> These people don't have any civic rights, and are considered former citizens, as if they had resigned.
>
> So, we have, as of today:
>
> 1615 socii (disappeared citizens)
> 285 probationary cives (incoming citizens), and
> 1159 full right cives (assidui and capite censi)
>
>
>
>
> Vale!
>
> CN. LENTVLVS
>

<<--- On Wed, 6/30/10, A. Tullia Scholastica <fororom@...> wrote:

ATS:  In any case, Spanish should have the Latin r down pat, and not be too far off on some other elements, especially if the Latin American version is used.>>
 
Nope, I learn Mexican Spanish, but my r's are perfect. 
 
 
<< However, there is no soft c before front vowels, and v is like English w in classical Latin; we say Kikero, not Thithero or Sisero.>>
 
 
Yep, I have a real problem with that since my first inclination is to say the soft Mexican "c" or the English "s". It's very awkward for me, even though I am a native English speaker, to say the hard "k". At least, I can say the "v" like our "w", thank goodness.
 
 
<<BTW, Lentulus also has a good one of his reading of the Declaration of NR, with the text superimposed so one can follow.>>
 
Oh, yes, I have seen it and enjoyed it very much! His voice is most pleasant to listen to and the pronounciation is easy to pick up. Perhaps we should get Lentulus to make some basic instructional videos on the ways of Latin pronounciation. You know the "repeat after me" kind. Just a thought.
 
Vale bene,
 
Maxima Valeria Messallina





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Valeria,

I will not answer on the offensive tone you use, Messallina, for I sincerely think that this matter is a top important one for our institutions.

I will not answer, too, on the mode that you apparently chose as your current preferred weapon in your crusade: assimilating me with what you call 'the Boni'.

This is a political argument, which in fact just add some more hot oil on people's differences, but will not solve the challenges we are facing now. I will not insist either that such arguments sound as
statements of failure for a majority whose some members constantly refuse, since several months, to act as members of a majority: to support a government on a program.

> You didn't say this in May when I pronounced intercessio against your veto. You even withdrew you veto then. Now, I do the same thing again and you cry it's a wrong interpretation? Rubbish!

Again, I do not cry. Cries and shoutings come from the factio that you decided to become one of the flags, which seems just another far-wing one.

On the matter, just take *one* thing in consideration : I always try to keep a door open for the people who are good will enough to be ready to go on working with me and for what I consider as being the interests of Nova Roma.

Do ask yourself why I did not react the last time, and why I kept silent, these last days, when my colleague withdrew his Senate item I, and would have kept if you had not, once again, find useful to come back in the Forum to deliver inexact informations.

> It's the same as last time, only this time you got your Boni allies >to bully the Senate.

I like the alliteration "Boni" and "bully". It is a pleasure reading you, for at least you write with some coherence and style, even if I have the impress that you could compose such speeches about carrots and beans, as well, with the same seriousness.

This said, I would not have used "bully" - if my dictionary gives me the exact meaning of the word - for the senators you are talking about are, like my colleague or I, full members of the senate unless both censors choose removing them.

As I told my colleague in Sweden, I am convinced that the top reforms which Quintilianus cos. and I are working on will need, beyond the "majority", to be worked with and supported by every good willing
senator.

> You tried to intimidate me with your reply. Not going to work, >Consul. This Tribune will not be intimidated.

Oh no, tribune. I do not. I try to discuss with you (should I speak of you at the third person as you do?) and bring you to agree on what I consider as the best way to 'live' our institutions and being at the same time in conformity with our constitution.
Put quietly things on the table, with no passion, and I am sure that you will see things differently.

>The Tribunes can veto any magistrate, even consuls. The Constitution >did not changed from last month to this month. The Tribunes' powers >are not being "interpreted" differently this month than they were >last month.

No. My reading is still the same, as I told you above.

> This is crap and you know it.

This is not a logical argument... and you know it. ;-)

(..) Whatever bogus reasons you and your Boni allies concoct, they are just that - bogus.

That's better, and yuo did not to use "crap" to introduce this another alliteration in "b". I am waiting now for the "bubbling", "buffoon", "booby", etc. You are not obliged, this said, to limit yourself to the "bo-"....

> (..) I see, Albucius, you've got the Boni lingo down pat.

Thank you very much: you are reassuring, for at a time some friends of you may say I speak bad... Californian, for example ;-), I am rejoiced to be said that, despite my defaults, I am still able to learn another language and speak it so quick.

Vale tribune and please think on the matter itself,



Albucius cos.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Maxima Valeria Messallina <maximavaleriamessallina@...> wrote:
>
> You didn't say this in May when I pronounced intercessio against your veto. You even withdrew you veto then. Now, I do the same thing again and you cry it's a wrong interpretation? Rubbish!
> It's the same as last time, only this time you got your Boni allies to bully the Senate. You tried to intimidate me with your reply. Not going to work, Consul. This Tribune will not be intimidated. The Tribunes can veto any magistrate, even consuls. The Constitution did not changed from last month to this month. The Tribunes' powers are not being  "interpreted" differently this month than they were last month. This is crap and you know it. My intercessio was right, just and legal and you chose to ignore it. Whatever bogus reasons you and your Boni allies concoct, they are just that - bogus.
> It has nothing to do with interpretations or traditions. It has to do with the simple fact that, for whatever personal reasons, you didn't want the Senate to deliberate on Consul Quintilinaus' IT proposal and so you vetoed that item on his agenda - without just cause - just like you did last month on another item of the Senate agenda. I pronounced intercessio now just like I did last month. Both intercessios were just, correct and legal. The only difference is one you abided by and the other you chose to ignore because you it interfered with your schemes, whatever they are.
> Doublespeak, half-truths, reversal of facts - I see, Albucius, you've got the Boni lingo down pat.
>  
> Maxima Valeria Messallina 
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>
>
> <<--- On Tue, 6/29/10, publiusalbucius <albucius_aoe@...> wrote:
> Omnibus s.d.
>
> Strange evening : some people are getting crazy, and now, I can see, reading Messallina tribune, that my veto would have just resigned without any previous warning, and left the ranks...??:! Tu quoque, mi veto !!!???
>
> Seriously:
>
> 1/ Messallina tb. is right on the writing of our constitution, which does not make the difference between actions and (legal) acts
>
> 2/ Her interpretation however does not fit our custom, according which no tribune may veto a consular counter-veto, as the reverse.
> Admitting such actions would open the door to the possibility that the consuls make a strict interpretation of our constitution and consider the tribunes, as magistrates of "lesser authority" (cf. constitution), and therefore could be vetoed by the consuls.
> I think that we agree that it is not wishable.
> Let us be wise, and not touch the frail balance of our institutions.
>
> 3/ Unless my vetos has an independant life, I did not withdraw the conservatory veto that I issued on one point of the senatorial agenda.
>
> Valete omnes,
>
> Albucius cos.>>
>  
>  
>  
>
>
>  
> >--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Maxima Valeria Messallina <maximavaleriamessallina@> wrote:
> >
> > <<--- On Tue, 6/29/10, Cato <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > Cato Marcio Crispo omnibusque in foro SPD
> >
> > The tribune Messallina attempted to overstep her authority in several ways and attempted to issue an unConstitutional intercessio against the consul, which was promptly struck down.>>
> >  
> >  
> > The Tribunes have the authority to pronounce intercessio against the veto of ANY magistrate as stated in our Constitution. I used my authority as a Tribune EXACTLY as I did last month when I pronounced intercessio on the Consul's unjust veto. No one in the Senate said anything about it. Not even Albucius said a word about it being "illegal" in any way. On the contrary, he withdrew his veto.
> > My intercessio against the veto of Consul Albucius is just as correct and legal now as my intercessio against the veto of Consul Albucius was last month. The Constitution has not changed. The powers of the Tribunes have not changed.
> > I did not "overstep" my authority now any more than I did last month. My intercessio was not "struck down" because the only way that can happen is for the other Tribunes to counter-veto it and none of the other Tribunes did. My intercessio was ignored, incorrectly, unjustly and illegally ignored. 
> > Would you like me to tell you what would have happened to anyone, even a consul, if they had ignored a Tribune's veto in ancient Rome? I think you know.
> >  
> > Maxima Valeria Messallina
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Pot kettle black! Messalina

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 30, 2010, at 3:13 AM, Maxima Valeria Messallina <maximavaleriamessallina@...> wrote:

>
> <<--- On Tue, 6/29/10, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> Cato Messallinae sal.
>
> That's because your attempted "intercessio" was duly ignored by the Senate as it occurred after the Senate had finished voting, so there was no need to address it.>>
>
>
>
> What a liar you are. My intercessio was issued on the 26th, the very first day the Senate session started. The Senate did not start voting until yesterday, the 29th. Attempted? It was done, issued and pronounced, correctly and legally; and it was addressed.
>
> Maxima Valeria Messallina
>
>
>
> >--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Maxima Valeria Messallina <maximavaleriamessallina@...> wrote:
> >
> > Strange you didn't bring this up last month when I did the same thing as I had to do just a few days ago.
> > Strange that these "reasons" of yours that you are now spouting out didn't exist last month.
> > Stranger yet you did not feel compelled last month to make such a show for the public as you are doing now.
> > Could it be that my intercessio of last month did not impinge on your schemes as this month's intercessio does?
> > My intercessio against the veto of Consul Albucius of June 26, 2010 was just as just, correct and legal as my intercessio of the veto of Consul Albucius of May 9, 2010. You can ramble on all you like, but nothing changes that truth.
> >
> > Maxima Valeria Messallina
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Didn't you say your arguments with Cato would be conducted in private? I guess we know how long that martyrs act lasted, don't we?

Vale

Sulla

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 30, 2010, at 4:48 AM, Maxima Valeria Messallina <maximavaleriamessallina@...> wrote:

> If you were talking about May, then your post makes absolutely no sense. In May, my intercessio was issued before the Senate began voting. It was not discussed any further because Albucius withdrew his veto.
>
> Maxima Valeria Messallina
>
>
>
>
> --- On Wed, 6/30/10, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> From: Cato <catoinnyc@...>
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: [NR_Senaculum] *URGENT* - Comitia centuriata - **legislative part** : cancellation and postponing
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wednesday, June 30, 2010, 4:31 AM
>
>
>
> Cato Messallinae sal.
>
> I was talking about your attempt in May. Do try to keep up.
>
> Vale!
>
> Cato
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Maxima Valeria Messallina <maximavaleriamessallina@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > <<--- On Tue, 6/29/10, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
> >
> > Cato Messallinae sal.
> >
> > That's because your attempted "intercessio" was duly ignored by the Senate as it occurred after the Senate had finished voting, so there was no need to address it.>>
> >
> >
> >
> > What a liar you are. My intercessio was issued on the 26th, the very first day the Senate session started. The Senate did not start voting until yesterday, the 29th. Attempted? It was done, issued and pronounced, correctly and legally; and it was addressed.
> >
> > Maxima Valeria Messallina
> >
> >
> >
> > >--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Maxima Valeria Messallina <maximavaleriamessallina@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Strange you didn't bring this up last month when I did the same thing as I had to do just a few days ago.
> > > Strange that these "reasons" of yours that you are now spouting out didn't exist last month.
> > > Stranger yet you did not feel compelled last month to make such a show for the public as you are doing now.
> > > Could it be that my intercessio of last month did not impinge on your schemes as this month's intercessio does?
> > > My intercessio against the veto of Consul Albucius of June 26, 2010 was just as just, correct and legal as my intercessio of the veto of Consul Albucius of May 9, 2010. You can ramble on all you like, but nothing changes that truth.
> > >
> > > Maxima Valeria Messallina
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lentulus Gualtero sal.

>>> Firstly, it isn't hard to "maintain their citizenship" since they don't have to do anything; they simply have to not resign and then one every two years say "yes, I'm a citizen". <<<

What more one should do for being a citizen? Citizens are required to "belong" only and to respect the law.

A citizen is self-identification, Nova Roman citizens are called who subscribe to our mission of restoring the Roman nation. Who joins this nation, joins for life. But they have to repeat this statement of identity, at each census time, for administrative reasons, so that we can see who bother to maintain their New Roman identity.

We give out citizenships, not mere memberships. Citizenship is, especially in a symbolic citizenry without physical territory, an inalienable right, and can be revoked only if the citizen commits certain crimes.

Yes, I think this is quite a big thing if somebody says "I'm a Nova Roman citizen". I am proud to hear that from a capite census, I'm proud if someone wants to belong to us, even if they can not or do not want produce further activity.

>>> Also, you state that "...a great many citizens... are active in the real life, attend our events, our lectures, our public ritual", but how many exactly? Do you really think it's 900+? <<<

Of course, not. But, for example, the Italic Nova Romans are very active, yet only 2-3 of them are assidui.

In my province, Pannonia, Livia and I are alone who ever visited the ML. Yet we have 10+ regularly active fellow citizens without whom Nova Roma would be poorer of all the Pannonian activities well known and celebrated by the other provinces.

I know M. Octavius Corvus is the only one Sarmatian who speaks sometimes in the forum, but you have to know that they are the biggest and most active province of Nova Roma. All these people say we are Nova Romans, all they are proud of Nova Roma, and of the honour of being a Nova Roman citizen.

Assiduus status and activity are two different categories, and many times they are contrary to each other.

>>> Indeed, during a census are they asked what activities or groups they participate in? Are they asked what the last thing is that they've done for NR and when it was? <<<

A citizen does not HAVE TO serve Nova Roma, they can or may serve Nova Roma if they want to do it. What they indeed HAVE TO do, is respecting Nova Roma, its laws, its institutions, obeying the laws and the magistrates.

Assiduus or not, each civis has the right to decide if they want to be a public figure, an activist of Nova Roma, or just a silent private person who wants to be associated with this identity. WE are richer if they want so, and we don't loose anything.

>>> Nova Roma's presence online isn't just the ML and politics. There are a great deal many other NR lists with religious and other topics and if so many cives were actively floating around you'd suspect there would be evidence of it; I've not seen it. <<<

Many cives do not participate online at all, in anything. In some countries, many NR citizens do not have computer at all and use internet only from the library, and many are incapable to use e-mail correctly or regulary because of incompetence. My 55 years old mother, for example, wrote her first e-mail ever in her life yesterday. And that's not usual in her age in Hungary, because computer had its expansion more slowly and later than in the USA. I tell you that most of the active cives in Pannonia almost never use e-mail for communication.

And remember, "active citizen" as censorial jargon, refers to "non-resigned", "non-disappeared" citizens, whose citizenship is still activated. Active here it is an antonym for "resigned", "disappeared". No one claimed they are all active in the colloquial meaning of the word, and here it does not mean "citizen who works for the NR community through various activities".

You can, of course, propose the change of the jargon, we can label them as "registered citizens" or "current citizens" for example, which would not have ambiguous meaning at all.

>>> So, I will stick to my 200+ number because, in the end, the number who pay taxes seem to most realistically represent the active component of NR until such a time as when there is good empirical evidence to the contrary. <<<

But that's false. If you want use the number 200, you have to say "200 taxpayer citizens". 200 is not the number of the "actively active" citizens, because they are fewer. The number of those people who really do something for NR, and are regularly participating either as assidui or capite censi, and either in real life or online, I think, is about 50-60.

>>>> Appealing to an NR technical definition for "active" shouldn't be an excuse to delude ourselves about the real meaning of the word and what it says about NR's health. <<<<

You are right. I think I never used the censorial jargon "active citizen" to delude anyone that we have 1000+ citizens who actively participate in our public (real or online) life. I was under the impression that everyone knows "active citizen" means citizen with activated album civium profile, citizen with activated citizenship, registered citizen. I made clear it by listing all other categories from what you could see the meaning of the term "active".

However, it is also unhealthy if we forget about the fact that Nova Roma was founded with no taxpayer citizens at all, and the category of taxpayers came into use only later. So, technically, the capite censi are the original category to which once all of Nova Roma belonged.
Our capite censi ARE full right Nova Roman citizens, except they can't run for magistracies, because they do not belong to the taxpayer elite of NR. In a Roman system only the upper class can be magistrates.

>>> Historically, being registered in the census meant travel to Rome; <<<

As the Roman State became bigger than central Italy, censitores were sent everywhere to conduct the census in far places.

>>> today, responding to an email is NOT indicative of the same sort of civic commitment, so I simply cannot take it seriously for being "active" in the absence of other hard evidence. <<<

Responding to an email indeed does not make someone a NR activist. But applying for citizenship, passing the citizenship exam, and maintaining that citizenship by the census where they have to confirm their adherence to their citizenship, in my view, this must make someone a Nova Roman citizen. Let's name them "registered citizen", instead of "active", if that helps. Yes, it does not make them NR activists, but makes them registered Nova Romans. To be Roman, we can't require more than that: if they identify themselves as Roman, or live a private "Roman life", but aren't public activists, how would we dare to revoke their citizenship?

Vale!

Lentulus

Lentulus Gualtero iterum sal.

Sorry, I mistyped the word "unusual":

And that's not usual in her age in Hungary,

It is correctly:

And that's not UNusual in her age in Hungary,


. My 55 years old mother, for example, wrote her first e-mail ever in her life yesterday. And that's not -UN-usual in her age in Hungary, because computer had its expansion more slowly and later than in the USA. I tell you that most of the active cives in Pannonia almost never use e-mail for communication.



And remember, "active citizen" as censorial jargon, refers to "non-resigned", "non-disappeared" citizens, whose citizenship is still activated. Active here it is an antonym for "resigned", "disappeared". No one claimed they are all active in the colloquial meaning of the word, and here it does not mean "citizen who works for the NR community through various activities".

















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

So, exactly how many Assidui do we have?

Since in terms of bottom line and financial planning - that is the true
number of active dues paying membership we have.

Vale,

Sulla

On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 6:51 AM, Cn. Cornelius Lentulus <
cn_corn_lent@...> wrote:

>
>
> Lentulus Gualtero iterum sal.
>
> Sorry, I mistyped the word "unusual":
>
>
> And that's not usual in her age in Hungary,
>
> It is correctly:
>
> And that's not UNusual in her age in Hungary,
>
> . My 55 years old mother, for example, wrote her first e-mail ever in her
> life yesterday. And that's not -UN-usual in her age in Hungary, because
> computer had its expansion more slowly and later than in the USA. I tell you
> that most of the active cives in Pannonia almost never use e-mail for
> communication.
>
>
> And remember, "active citizen" as censorial jargon, refers to
> "non-resigned", "non-disappeared" citizens, whose citizenship is still
> activated. Active here it is an antonym for "resigned", "disappeared". No
> one claimed they are all active in the colloquial meaning of the word, and
> here it does not mean "citizen who works for the NR community through
> various activities".
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

And, I agree!

This is one of those debates that we have been having for 9+ years. It
would be great to fix this in the bylaws to spell out members are those who
pay the dues. Non-voting members would be transferred to essentially socii
status who would not have the right to vote, but could otherwise enjoy the
benefits of being apart of NR.

Vale,

Sulla

On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 3:42 AM, David Kling <tau.athanasios@...>wrote:

>
>
> Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus S.P.D.
>
> I think one of the worse things we ever did was allow for "non-paying"
> citizens/members. Everyone who is involved with Nova Roma should be
> assidui. I've heard the arguments for capite censi and socius and I don't
> accept them.
>
> Valete;
>
> Modianus
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 6:38 AM, <QFabiusMaxmi@...<QFabiusMaxmi%40aol.com>>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 6/30/2010 2:23:59 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> > cn_corn_lent@... <cn_corn_lent%40yahoo.it> <cn_corn_lent%40yahoo.it>
> writes:
> >
> > According to the citizenship database, we have, as of today:
> >
> > # 1159 ACTIVE CITIZENS
> > ----------
> > Define Active Citizen, Cornelius
> >
> > # 285 PROVISIONAL CITIZENS
> >
> > Oh I find this really hard to believe. These numbers have responded in
> > full?
> >
> >
> > Assidui (200+) are the elite of Nova Roma, not the full people.
> >
> > They are also ones that drive NR.
> > If you sign up then disappear you are a civvy in name only.
> >
> > -Q Fabius Maximus
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve,

Well, I have a different notion of what necessarily constitutes an active citizen in NR. Since so much about NR is virtual an additional commitment must be shown, either in public participation or living, as you say, a "Roman life". How many people do you think do the latter? Well, in fact, you already put out a figure which seems very realistic to me: 50-60 beyond the taxpayers. So, would you say that that 250+ is a reasonable estimate for those who are "active" citizens in the full sense of the word?

That figure, by the way, is much closer to my estimate of 200+ than to any officially "active" category. I'm quite satisfied to from now on talk about 200+ taxpayers and 250+ total active cives. At the very least, there should be a technical category for this 250+ to accurately represent the number of cives who actually have a pulse, so to speak.

As for the ancient census, travel to Rome was required until the Social War, after which you could be registered in local municipia and coloniae. Of course, prior to this, one could also register by proxy. Actually, I think a census would be an excellent way to bring together NR cives. Every two years the census should not just be by email or phone, but actual meeting. Given logistical difficulties, separate meetings in the US, Europe and Latin America could be conducted at the same time. Registration by proxy could be accepted (local communities could pool together some money and help their governor to travel), but the representative would have to physically show up and give account for each citizen. And, I think a physical meeting between the representative and citizen should be required before the citizen could be registered by proxy.

What do you think?

Vale,

Gualterus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cn. Cornelius Lentulus" <cn_corn_lent@...> wrote:
>
> Lentulus Gualtero sal.
>
>
> >>> Firstly, it isn't hard to "maintain their citizenship" since they don't have to do anything; they simply have to not resign and then one every two years say "yes, I'm a citizen". <<<
>
>
> What more one should do for being a citizen? Citizens are required to "belong" only and to respect the law.
>
> A citizen is self-identification, Nova Roman citizens are called who subscribe to our mission of restoring the Roman nation. Who joins this nation, joins for life. But they have to repeat this statement of identity, at each census time, for administrative reasons, so that we can see who bother to maintain their New Roman identity.
>
> We give out citizenships, not mere memberships. Citizenship is, especially in a symbolic citizenry without physical territory, an inalienable right, and can be revoked only if the citizen commits certain crimes.
>
> Yes, I think this is quite a big thing if somebody says "I'm a Nova Roman citizen". I am proud to hear that from a capite census, I'm proud if someone wants to belong to us, even if they can not or do not want produce further activity.
>
>
> >>> Also, you state that "...a great many citizens... are active in the real life, attend our events, our lectures, our public ritual", but how many exactly? Do you really think it's 900+? <<<
>
>
> Of course, not. But, for example, the Italic Nova Romans are very active, yet only 2-3 of them are assidui.
>
> In my province, Pannonia, Livia and I are alone who ever visited the ML. Yet we have 10+ regularly active fellow citizens without whom Nova Roma would be poorer of all the Pannonian activities well known and celebrated by the other provinces.
>
> I know M. Octavius Corvus is the only one Sarmatian who speaks sometimes in the forum, but you have to know that they are the biggest and most active province of Nova Roma. All these people say we are Nova Romans, all they are proud of Nova Roma, and of the honour of being a Nova Roman citizen.
>
> Assiduus status and activity are two different categories, and many times they are contrary to each other.
>
>
> >>> Indeed, during a census are they asked what activities or groups they participate in? Are they asked what the last thing is that they've done for NR and when it was? <<<
>
>
> A citizen does not HAVE TO serve Nova Roma, they can or may serve Nova Roma if they want to do it. What they indeed HAVE TO do, is respecting Nova Roma, its laws, its institutions, obeying the laws and the magistrates.
>
> Assiduus or not, each civis has the right to decide if they want to be a public figure, an activist of Nova Roma, or just a silent private person who wants to be associated with this identity. WE are richer if they want so, and we don't loose anything.
>
>
> >>> Nova Roma's presence online isn't just the ML and politics. There are a great deal many other NR lists with religious and other topics and if so many cives were actively floating around you'd suspect there would be evidence of it; I've not seen it. <<<
>
>
> Many cives do not participate online at all, in anything. In some countries, many NR citizens do not have computer at all and use internet only from the library, and many are incapable to use e-mail correctly or regulary because of incompetence. My 55 years old mother, for example, wrote her first e-mail ever in her life yesterday. And that's not usual in her age in Hungary, because computer had its expansion more slowly and later than in the USA. I tell you that most of the active cives in Pannonia almost never use e-mail for communication.
>
> And remember, "active citizen" as censorial jargon, refers to "non-resigned", "non-disappeared" citizens, whose citizenship is still activated. Active here it is an antonym for "resigned", "disappeared". No one claimed they are all active in the colloquial meaning of the word, and here it does not mean "citizen who works for the NR community through various activities".
>
> You can, of course, propose the change of the jargon, we can label them as "registered citizens" or "current citizens" for example, which would not have ambiguous meaning at all.
>
>
>
> >>> So, I will stick to my 200+ number because, in the end, the number who pay taxes seem to most realistically represent the active component of NR until such a time as when there is good empirical evidence to the contrary. <<<
>
>
> But that's false. If you want use the number 200, you have to say "200 taxpayer citizens". 200 is not the number of the "actively active" citizens, because they are fewer. The number of those people who really do something for NR, and are regularly participating either as assidui or capite censi, and either in real life or online, I think, is about 50-60.
>
>
> >>>> Appealing to an NR technical definition for "active" shouldn't be an excuse to delude ourselves about the real meaning of the word and what it says about NR's health. <<<<
>
>
> You are right. I think I never used the censorial jargon "active citizen" to delude anyone that we have 1000+ citizens who actively participate in our public (real or online) life. I was under the impression that everyone knows "active citizen" means citizen with activated album civium profile, citizen with activated citizenship, registered citizen. I made clear it by listing all other categories from what you could see the meaning of the term "active".
>
> However, it is also unhealthy if we forget about the fact that Nova Roma was founded with no taxpayer citizens at all, and the category of taxpayers came into use only later. So, technically, the capite censi are the original category to which once all of Nova Roma belonged.
> Our capite censi ARE full right Nova Roman citizens, except they can't run for magistracies, because they do not belong to the taxpayer elite of NR. In a Roman system only the upper class can be magistrates.
>
>
> >>> Historically, being registered in the census meant travel to Rome; <<<
>
>
> As the Roman State became bigger than central Italy, censitores were sent everywhere to conduct the census in far places.
>
>
> >>> today, responding to an email is NOT indicative of the same sort of civic commitment, so I simply cannot take it seriously for being "active" in the absence of other hard evidence. <<<
>
>
> Responding to an email indeed does not make someone a NR activist. But applying for citizenship, passing the citizenship exam, and maintaining that citizenship by the census where they have to confirm their adherence to their citizenship, in my view, this must make someone a Nova Roman citizen. Let's name them "registered citizen", instead of "active", if that helps. Yes, it does not make them NR activists, but makes them registered Nova Romans. To be Roman, we can't require more than that: if they identify themselves as Roman, or live a private "Roman life", but aren't public activists, how would we dare to revoke their citizenship?
>
> Vale!
>
> Lentulus
>

Cn. Lentulus L. Sullae s. d.


I can tell you this information because the censorial database does not list the number of assidui. The other information I shared about the number of citizens is there in the database, automatically. The number of assidui is not, because the quaestores shall manually set up the assiduus status of each assiduus or assidua, after they receive the report of the list of who had paid.

I don't know if the consuls or their quaestors received the list of those who had paid, or they did not so far.

When they will have set up the assiduus status of the taxpayer on their citizen ID account page, unfortunately, the system does not list them, but the officers shall prepare a list of them, manually, and this will be added to our website's main page in a link.

When they have finished this work, we will know who paid taxes this year. Usually a number of 60-80 citizens will join later during the year, newbies, late payers etc.

Vale!

Lentulus




--- Mer 30/6/10, Robert Woolwine <robert.woolwine@...> ha scritto:

> So, exactly how many Assidui do we
> have?
>
> Since in terms of bottom line and financial planning - that
> is the true
> number of active dues paying membership we have.
>
> Vale,
>
> Sulla
>
> On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 6:51 AM, Cn. Cornelius Lentulus
> <
> cn_corn_lent@...>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Lentulus Gualtero iterum sal.
> >
> > Sorry, I mistyped the word "unusual":
> >
> >
> > And that's not usual in her age in Hungary,
> >
> > It is correctly:
> >
> > And that's not UNusual in her age in Hungary,
> >
> > . My 55 years old mother, for example, wrote her first
> e-mail ever in her
> > life yesterday. And that's not -UN-usual in her age in
> Hungary, because
> > computer had its expansion more slowly and later than
> in the USA. I tell you
> > that most of the active cives in Pannonia almost never
> use e-mail for
> > communication.
> >
> >
> > And remember, "active citizen" as censorial jargon,
> refers to
> > "non-resigned", "non-disappeared" citizens, whose
> citizenship is still
> > activated. Active here it is an antonym for
> "resigned", "disappeared". No
> > one claimed they are all active in the colloquial
> meaning of the word, and
> > here it does not mean "citizen who works for the NR
> community through
> > various activities".
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > 
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>     Nova-Roma-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>

Salve iterum!

And sorry, again, that's not Lentulus' typing day. Instead of this:

"I can tell you this information because the censorial database does not list the number of assidui."

I wanted to say:

"I *can't* tell you this information because the censorial database does not list the number of assidui."



--- Mer 30/6/10, Cn. Cornelius Lentulus <cn_corn_lent@...> ha scritto:








 









Cn. Lentulus L. Sullae s. d.



I can -NOT- tell you this information because the censorial database does not list the number of assidui. The other information I shared about the number of citizens is there in the database, automatically. The number of assidui is not, because the quaestores shall manually set up the assiduus status of each assiduus or assidua, after they receive the report of the list of who had paid.



I don't know if the consuls or their quaestors received the list of those who had paid, or they did not so far.



When they will have set up the assiduus status of the taxpayer on their citizen ID account page, unfortunately, the system does not list them, but the officers shall prepare a list of them, manually, and this will be added to our website's main page in a link.



When they have finished this work, we will know who paid taxes this year. Usually a number of 60-80 citizens will join later during the year, newbies, late payers etc.



Vale!



Lentulus



--- Mer 30/6/10, Robert Woolwine <robert.woolwine@...> ha scritto:

> So, exactly how many Assidui do we

> have?

>

> Since in terms of bottom line and financial planning - that

> is the true

> number of active dues paying membership we have.

>

> Vale,

>

> Sulla

>

> On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 6:51 AM, Cn. Cornelius Lentulus

> <

> cn_corn_lent@...>

> wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > Lentulus Gualtero iterum sal.

> >

> > Sorry, I mistyped the word "unusual":

> >

> >

> > And that's not usual in her age in Hungary,

> >

> > It is correctly:

> >

> > And that's not UNusual in her age in Hungary,

> >

> > . My 55 years old mother, for example, wrote her first

> e-mail ever in her

> > life yesterday. And that's not -UN-usual in her age in

> Hungary, because

> > computer had its expansion more slowly and later than

> in the USA. I tell you

> > that most of the active cives in Pannonia almost never

> use e-mail for

> > communication.

> >

> >

> > And remember, "active citizen" as censorial jargon,

> refers to

> > "non-resigned", "non-disappeared" citizens, whose

> citizenship is still

> > activated. Active here it is an antonym for

> "resigned", "disappeared". No

> > one claimed they are all active in the colloquial

> meaning of the word, and

> > here it does not mean "citizen who works for the NR

> community through

> > various activities".

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >

> > 

> >

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>     Nova-Roma-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

>

>

>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Nova Roma Citizen,

I suggest Nova Roma offer a reasonable number of items that non-tax-paying Nova
Roma citizens can purchase. For example t-shirts, calendars, pens, music, etc;
things that are inexpensive yet people use regularly.

I'll admit - I do appreciate Nova Roma but I don't pay taxes regularly. Gen.
Rule: taxes follow terrain.

To my credit, I have purchased Nova Roma calendars several years now.
Your truly,
Tiberius Marcius Quadra



________________________________
From: Cato <catoinnyc@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, June 30, 2010 9:33:02 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Number of NR Citizens


Cato Lentulo sal.

How many citizens have actually *paid their taxes*? THAT'S the number of
"active" citizens we have.

Vale,

Cato







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cn. Cornelius M. Cornelio sal.

>>> Well, I have a different notion of what necessarily constitutes an active citizen in NR. <<<

I don't think you have a different vision, since I explained the word "active" the office uses does not mean "active" but registered.

We can speak about activity, too, but currently I started a discussion about "registered" citizens (who are called, by a jargon, active).

So let me re-phrase your sentence to the form which I think is what you really wanted, or should have wanted, to say:



"Well, I have a different notion of what necessarily constitutes an registered citizen in NR."



I can answer that. A registered citizen is who registers and maintain his registrarion as a citizen. They are two groups:
1) the elite of Nova Roma, who are taxed. They give the money to NR. And 2) the proletarians (proletarii or capite censi), who give their mass, themselves and their offspring, the proles.

There are other divisions, there are actively participating, and passive citizens. These are cross categories, many assidui are passive citizens and many capite censi are actively aprticipating citizens, and vice versa, many assidui are actively participating citizens and many capite censi are passive. (ATTN.: active here is not used as a censorial jargon but means people really making activities.)

>>> So, would you say that that 250+ is a reasonable estimate for those who are "active" citizens in the full sense of the word? <<<

No, they are fewer. Among our 1000+ current citizens, 50-60 citizens are active in the *full sense* of the word, in my opinion. Among them there are both capite censi and assidui.

>>> That figure, by the way, is much closer to my estimate of 200+ than to any officially "active" category. <<<<

Let's drop that word now! Use "registered citizen" instead. I could not foresee how much trouble can use a simple word in the forum. I shall reproduce the entire thread and I will re-posts my statistic without the word "active" and I'll use "registered".

>>> I'm quite satisfied to from now on talk about 200+ taxpayers and 250+ total active cives. <<<<

I think we have only 50-60 "actively active" (not simply registered) cives, active ones who do things on a regular basis. Paying taxes does not make one active.

From this approx.60 "actively active" (not simply registered) citizens, 30 are assidui, 30 are capite censi, but these capite censi are mostly present in provincial life only. This is a rough estimation. I just wanted to sign that activity and taxpayer status is not the same, and making activities is not the only way to be a citizen.

>>> At the very least, there should be a technical category for this 250+ to accurately represent the number of cives who actually have a pulse, so to speak. <<<

All 1000+ cives have a pulse. They decided to apply for citizenship, made the test, responded to the census, and call themselves Nova Roman. To me, the capite censi exist, in our Constitution and laws they are equal citizens with you and me. They are passive and active, but full right citizens. The passive ones every day can decide to do something, the active ones each day may retire for a period, even for years.

>>> Of course, prior to this, one could also register by proxy. Actually, I think a census would be an excellent way to bring together NR cives. Every two years the census should not just be by email or phone, but actual meeting. Given logistical difficulties, separate meetings in the US, Europe and Latin America could be conducted at the same time. Registration by proxy could be accepted (local communities could pool together some money and help their governor to travel), but the representative would have to physically show up and give account for each citizen. And, I think a physical meeting between the representative and citizen should be required before the citizen could be registered by proxy. <<<<

It sounds a great idea, but I do think that we have to let a big door opened for new citizens, and maintain a category for citizens in which they aren't required to do various activities or payments. Why would any community take away citizenship from their citizens except as part of a punishment for a serious crime?

Also, who would be our capite censi, if not "poor class" of non-taxpayers? Nova Roma-wise they are our poor. Either poor in money, or poor in dedication, or poor in computer skills (who don't know how to pay online).

Cn. Lentulus Quiritibus s. p. d.



As I have said to M. Cornelius, I repost the thread as it seems to have caused problems with the word active which some considered to be a term describing the level of activity in Nova Roma, while it's just meant "current", or "registered" citizen.

During the last few months I observed that some people say we have 200+ citizens. I noticed it slowly became a proverb here. That's a false information.




According to the citizenship database, we have, as of today:




# 1159 FULL RIGHT CITIZENS ("assidui" and "capite censi" citizens)



# 285 PROVISIONAL CITIZENS (incoming citizens)

# 1615 SOCII (disappeared citizens)



Please, the tribunes of the plebs see that no harm is done to our weakest, the capite censi.


Valete!
















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve,

Well, I think taxpayers are sufficiently "active" to be considered as such, since they contribute to the financial health of the organization. Those who don't pay need to, in my opinion, compensate for that fact by other types of activity.

I don't see a problem for new citizens or the "poor" if we do an in-person registration for a census. The new and the poor should still be able to meet their representative before they are represented by proxy. If someone can't even do that much, then, imo, they don't deserve to be part of the community.

As you can probably tell, I am treating the notion of NR citizenship a bit differently from "real life" citizenship in a modern nation-state. In a modern nation-state everyone de facto participates in the community because they live in a particular geographic region.

In the case of NR a big component is completely virtual, so minimal online confirmation every two years doesn't necessarily tell us anything about the health and status of NR since those weak hangers-on have very little invested in the organization. Likewise, since they have very little invested then their "citizenship" shouldn't be taken as seriously unless they demonstrate commitment, either with tax money or somehow participating in-person, or both.

We can't treat NR citizenship by the same standards as macro-world citizenship until the virtual component is removed.

Vale,

Gualterus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cn. Cornelius Lentulus" <cn_corn_lent@...> wrote:
>
> Cn. Cornelius M. Cornelio sal.
>
>
>
> >>> Well, I have a different notion of what necessarily constitutes an active citizen in NR. <<<
>
>
>
> I don't think you have a different vision, since I explained the word "active" the office uses does not mean "active" but registered.
>
> We can speak about activity, too, but currently I started a discussion about "registered" citizens (who are called, by a jargon, active).
>
> So let me re-phrase your sentence to the form which I think is what you really wanted, or should have wanted, to say:
>
>
>
> "Well, I have a different notion of what necessarily constitutes an registered citizen in NR."
>
>
>
> I can answer that. A registered citizen is who registers and maintain his registrarion as a citizen. They are two groups:
> 1) the elite of Nova Roma, who are taxed. They give the money to NR. And 2) the proletarians (proletarii or capite censi), who give their mass, themselves and their offspring, the proles.
>
> There are other divisions, there are actively participating, and passive citizens. These are cross categories, many assidui are passive citizens and many capite censi are actively aprticipating citizens, and vice versa, many assidui are actively participating citizens and many capite censi are passive. (ATTN.: active here is not used as a censorial jargon but means people really making activities.)
>
>
>
> >>> So, would you say that that 250+ is a reasonable estimate for those who are "active" citizens in the full sense of the word? <<<
>
>
>
> No, they are fewer. Among our 1000+ current citizens, 50-60 citizens are active in the *full sense* of the word, in my opinion. Among them there are both capite censi and assidui.
>
>
>
> >>> That figure, by the way, is much closer to my estimate of 200+ than to any officially "active" category. <<<<
>
>
>
> Let's drop that word now! Use "registered citizen" instead. I could not foresee how much trouble can use a simple word in the forum. I shall reproduce the entire thread and I will re-posts my statistic without the word "active" and I'll use "registered".
>
>
>
> >>> I'm quite satisfied to from now on talk about 200+ taxpayers and 250+ total active cives. <<<<
>
>
>
> I think we have only 50-60 "actively active" (not simply registered) cives, active ones who do things on a regular basis. Paying taxes does not make one active.
>
> From this approx.60 "actively active" (not simply registered) citizens, 30 are assidui, 30 are capite censi, but these capite censi are mostly present in provincial life only. This is a rough estimation. I just wanted to sign that activity and taxpayer status is not the same, and making activities is not the only way to be a citizen.
>
>
>
> >>> At the very least, there should be a technical category for this 250+ to accurately represent the number of cives who actually have a pulse, so to speak. <<<
>
>
>
> All 1000+ cives have a pulse. They decided to apply for citizenship, made the test, responded to the census, and call themselves Nova Roman. To me, the capite censi exist, in our Constitution and laws they are equal citizens with you and me. They are passive and active, but full right citizens. The passive ones every day can decide to do something, the active ones each day may retire for a period, even for years.
>
>
>
> >>> Of course, prior to this, one could also register by proxy. Actually, I think a census would be an excellent way to bring together NR cives. Every two years the census should not just be by email or phone, but actual meeting. Given logistical difficulties, separate meetings in the US, Europe and Latin America could be conducted at the same time. Registration by proxy could be accepted (local communities could pool together some money and help their governor to travel), but the representative would have to physically show up and give account for each citizen. And, I think a physical meeting between the representative and citizen should be required before the citizen could be registered by proxy. <<<<
>
>
>
> It sounds a great idea, but I do think that we have to let a big door opened for new citizens, and maintain a category for citizens in which they aren't required to do various activities or payments. Why would any community take away citizenship from their citizens except as part of a punishment for a serious crime?
>
> Also, who would be our capite censi, if not "poor class" of non-taxpayers? Nova Roma-wise they are our poor. Either poor in money, or poor in dedication, or poor in computer skills (who don't know how to pay online).
>

Aeternia Tiberio Marcio Quadrae sal,


Haven't read all the posts in this thread so I am not sure if anyone responded to your post. But I'd thought chime in..

I have thought of something similar actually, especially since that is something that can be done throughout each individual provincia.

I've even pitched an idea of having bake-sales (Aeternia can make some mean brownies) because not only can it generate profit but also another venue for recruiting. If the girl scouts can do it, so can NR IMHO... Sadly I was told such a thing was unable to be done since NR has a 501c3 Non-Profit status.. Something about NR can't claim profit..

So who knows, maybe it can be done, in any case I agree with you the matter should be look into more thoroughally.

Vale Bene,
Aeternia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robin Marquardt <remarq777@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Nova Roma Citizen,
>
> I suggest Nova Roma offer a reasonable number of items that non-tax-paying Nova
> Roma citizens can purchase. For example t-shirts, calendars, pens, music, etc;
> things that are inexpensive yet people use regularly.
>
> I'll admit - I do appreciate Nova Roma but I don't pay taxes regularly. Gen.
> Rule: taxes follow terrain.
>
> To my credit, I have purchased Nova Roma calendars several years now.
> Your truly,
> Tiberius Marcius Quadra
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Cato <catoinnyc@...>
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wed, June 30, 2010 9:33:02 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Number of NR Citizens
>
>
> Cato Lentulo sal.
>
> How many citizens have actually *paid their taxes*? THAT'S the number of
> "active" citizens we have.
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Ave Julia,

> Next up is an interesting and fun Latin Learning video - make sure you maximize it so the English subtitles do not obliterate the Latin words and you too can speak along with the "actors"! It will bring out your inner child while driving home your outer Latin:
>
> Sacapus et Praestigiator <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPdt7HMdMBY>

I know very well that movie and others with this so lovely puppet because Sacapus, indeed, is the puppet of our Latin Circle of Paris.

NB: Every body in our Circle named it a "neurospaston", according to a quote of Aulus Gellius in the dictionary French-Latin of Georges Edon, but this word is Greek, and re-reading the Satyricon of Petronius I found a Latin word for this kind of puppet; the Latin word is "vavato, -onis".

Vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
Pridie Kalendas Quintiles P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.

Salvete Romans,



When I created the Wiki list of taxpayers it was updated as citizens paid their taxes.

This has been done for years but if you check this years list not one person is list as having paid.



Someone needs to update that list asap.



Before I vote to spend money on IT or anything else I want to know how many taxpayers/dues payers we still have.



Over the last few years it was about 200-235 give or take. I am beginning to suspect that it way down. It could even be under a 100.



Please tell me that I am wrong.

　

Valete



Ti. Galerius Paulinus

Senator





To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
From: syrenslullaby@...
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 16:13:40 +0000
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Number of NR Citizens





Aeternia Tiberio Marcio Quadrae sal,

Haven't read all the posts in this thread so I am not sure if anyone responded to your post. But I'd thought chime in..

I have thought of something similar actually, especially since that is something that can be done throughout each individual provincia.

I've even pitched an idea of having bake-sales (Aeternia can make some mean brownies) because not only can it generate profit but also another venue for recruiting. If the girl scouts can do it, so can NR IMHO... Sadly I was told such a thing was unable to be done since NR has a 501c3 Non-Profit status.. Something about NR can't claim profit..

So who knows, maybe it can be done, in any case I agree with you the matter should be look into more thoroughally.

Vale Bene,
Aeternia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robin Marquardt <remarq777@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Nova Roma Citizen,
>
> I suggest Nova Roma offer a reasonable number of items that non-tax-paying Nova
> Roma citizens can purchase. For example t-shirts, calendars, pens, music, etc;
> things that are inexpensive yet people use regularly.
>
> I'll admit - I do appreciate Nova Roma but I don't pay taxes regularly. Gen.
> Rule: taxes follow terrain.
>
> To my credit, I have purchased Nova Roma calendars several years now.
> Your truly,
> Tiberius Marcius Quadra
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Cato <catoinnyc@...>
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wed, June 30, 2010 9:33:02 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Number of NR Citizens
>
>
> Cato Lentulo sal.
>
> How many citizens have actually *paid their taxes*? THAT'S the number of
> "active" citizens we have.
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Reminder from:		Nova-Roma Yahoo! Group
Title:		Kalends
Date:		Thursday July 1, 2010
Time:		All Day
Repeats:		This event repeats every month.
Notes:		Every Kalends is sacred to Juno "Be well, Queen Juno, look down and preserve us. Accept this offering of incense and look kindly and favorably upon me and the Senate and people of Nova Roma." (Incense is placed in focus) "Queen Juno, in addition to my virtuous offering of incense, be honored by this offering of wine that I pour in libation. May you look kindly and favorably upon the Senate and people of Nova Roma." (Libation is poured for the Goddess)
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This right here is the quote of the day:

How come when anybody compares the United States to
Rome<http://www.cnbc.com/id/37994720/>,
it's always the shitty late-period Rome with its weak Emperors, worthless
currency, an inability to maintain the borders, runaway public entitlements,
and--*oh*.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cato omnibus in foro SPD

Hodiernus dies est pridie Kalendas Quinctilis; haec dies comitialis est.

"Tomorrow the Kalends of July [Quinctilis in the Republican calendar] return:
Muses put the final touch to my work.
Pierides, tell me, who placed you with Hercules
Whose stepmother Juno unwillingly conceded it?
So I spoke, and Clio replied: `Behold the monument
To famous Philip, from whom chaste Marcia descends,
Marcia whose name derives from sacrificial Ancus Marcius,
And whose beauty equals her nobility.
In her, form matches spirit: in her
Lineage, beauty and intellect meet.
Don't think it shallow that I praise her form:
We praise the great goddesses in that way.
Caesar's aunt was once married to that Philip:
O ornament, O lady worthy of that sacred house!'
So Clio sang. Her learned sisters approved:
And Hercules agreed, and sounded his lyre." - Ovid, Fasti VI

The "famous Philip" to whom Ovid refers is Lucius Marcus Philippus.
He restored the temple of Hercules Musaeum (of the Muses) in the reign
of Augustus. His daughter was Marcia wife of Paullus Fabius Maximus,
from whose household Ovid's own third wife (possibly Fabia) came and
who was a friend and patron of Ovid. The Marcian family claimed
descent from King Ancus Marcius, and added the surname "Rex" to their
family name. Lucius later married Atia the younger sister of Augustus'
mother, Atia the Elder.

The nine Muses are the virgin daughters of Iuppiter and Mnemosyne
(Memory). They are the patronesses of the arts: Clio (History),
Melpomene (Tragedy), Thalia (Comedy), Euterpe (Lyric Poetry),
Terpsichore (Dance), Calliope (Epic Poetry), Erato (Love Poetry),
Urania (Astronomy), and Polyhymnia (Sacred Song). Their epithets are Pierides, Aonides, and Thespiades.

Valete bene,

Cato

Salvete omnes;

My niece - god daughter Erica is in hospital as I type having just
given birth to a son.

On 26 August 2006 I was honored to perform her wedding, wondering
aloud where the previous 23 years since I had held her as an infant
for her Baptism had flown...

Erica is the eldest child of my youngest sister (Cathy), who I think
is among the best and brightest of my generation of our family (along
with three of my female 1st cousins).

No other details, my mom just wanted to let me know there was a healthy birth.

Thank the Gods!!!

Venator

Cato Venatori sal.

Felicitations on this wonderful news!

optime vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator <famila.ulleria.venii@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete omnes;
>
> My niece - god daughter Erica is in hospital as I type having just
> given birth to a son.
>
> On 26 August 2006 I was honored to perform her wedding, wondering
> aloud where the previous 23 years since I had held her as an infant
> for her Baptism had flown...
>
> Erica is the eldest child of my youngest sister (Cathy), who I think
> is among the best and brightest of my generation of our family (along
> with three of my female 1st cousins).
>
> No other details, my mom just wanted to let me know there was a healthy birth.
>
> Thank the Gods!!!
>
> Venator
>

Salve Venator,



From one Grand/Great Uncle to another. Congratulations!!!!!!



Vale



Ti. Galerius Paulinus





To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
From: famila.ulleria.venii@...
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 19:27:38 -0500
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Venator is a Grand Uncle...





Salvete omnes;

My niece - god daughter Erica is in hospital as I type having just
given birth to a son.

On 26 August 2006 I was honored to perform her wedding, wondering
aloud where the previous 23 years since I had held her as an infant
for her Baptism had flown...

Erica is the eldest child of my youngest sister (Cathy), who I think
is among the best and brightest of my generation of our family (along
with three of my female 1st cousins).

No other details, my mom just wanted to let me know there was a healthy birth.

Thank the Gods!!!

Venator





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Iulia Catoni omnibusque in foro S.P.D.

Here is the original Latin with Frazier's translation which takes less poetic license. Although there are many beautiful English translations this one is easier for the Latin student to follow.

Ovid VI PR. KAL. 30th

The poem is written in elegiac couplet, a pattern of alternating dactylic hexameter and pentameter lines:

30. E C

Tempus Iuleis cras est natale Kalendis:
Pierides, coeptis addite summa meis.
dicite, Pierides, quis vos addixerit isti
cui dedit invitas victa noverca manus.
sic ego. sic Clio: 'clari monimenta Philippi
aspicis, unde trahit Marcia casta genus,
Marcia, sacrifico deductum nomen ab Anco,
in qua par facies nobilitate sua.
par animo quoque forma suo respondet; in illa
et genus et facies ingeniumque simul.
nec, quod laudamus formam, tu turpe putaris:
laudamus magnas hac quoque parte deas.
nupta fuit quondam matertera Caesaris illi:
o decus, o sacra femina digna domo!'
sic cecinit Clio, doctae adsensere sorores;
adnuit Alcides increpuitque lyram.

English Translation by Sir James George Frazier:

To-morrow is the birthday of the Kalends of July.
Pierides , put the last touches to my undertaking .
Tell me, Pierides, who associated you with him to whom
his stepmother was forced to yield reluctantly.
So I spoke, and Clio answered me thus : " Thou dost
behold the monument of that famous Philip from
whom the chaste Marcia is descended,
Marcia who derives her name from sacrificial Ancus, and whose
beauty matches her noble birth.
' In her the figure answers to the soul ; in her we find lineage and
beauty and genius all at once. Nor deem our praise
of figure base ; on the same ground we praise great
goddesses. The mother's sister of Caesar was once
married to that Philip.
O glorious dame! O lady worthy of that sacred house!
" So Clio sang. Her learned sisters chimed in;
Alcides bowed assent and twanged his lyre.



Optime valete in curate deorum,

Julia

Congratulations my friend and brother

Clovius

>
> Salvete omnes;
>
> My niece - god daughter Erica is in hospital as I type having just
> given birth to a son.
>
> On 26 August 2006 I was honored to perform her wedding, wondering
> aloud where the previous 23 years since I had held her as an infant
> for her Baptism had flown...
>
> Erica is the eldest child of my youngest sister (Cathy), who I think
> is among the best and brightest of my generation of our family (along
> with three of my female 1st cousins).
>
> No other details, my mom just wanted to let me know there was a
> healthy birth.
>
> Thank the Gods!!!
>
> Venator
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]