Salve Messallina;
don't bother with his nonsense. Our Albucius is in very very serious trouble with the College of Augurs, over his auspices and his ignoring their advice.
He cannot call a comitia.So now he doesn't want anyone to call a comitia. Haec sunt fututi facti Albuciani;-)

now are my participles correct; I love Latin!
vale
Maior

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "publiusalbucius" <albucius_aoe@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Valeria,
>
> I will not answer on the offensive tone you use, Messallina, for I sincerely think that this matter is a top important one for our institutions.
>
> I will not answer, too, on the mode that you apparently chose as your current preferred weapon in your crusade: assimilating me with what you call 'the Boni'.
>
> This is a political argument, which in fact just add some more hot oil on people's differences, but will not solve the challenges we are facing now. I will not insist either that such arguments sound as
> statements of failure for a majority whose some members constantly refuse, since several months, to act as members of a majority: to support a government on a program.
>
>
> > You didn't say this in May when I pronounced intercessio against your veto. You even withdrew you veto then. Now, I do the same thing again and you cry it's a wrong interpretation? Rubbish!
>
> Again, I do not cry. Cries and shoutings come from the factio that you decided to become one of the flags, which seems just another far-wing one.
>
> On the matter, just take *one* thing in consideration : I always try to keep a door open for the people who are good will enough to be ready to go on working with me and for what I consider as being the interests of Nova Roma.
>
> Do ask yourself why I did not react the last time, and why I kept silent, these last days, when my colleague withdrew his Senate item I, and would have kept if you had not, once again, find useful to come back in the Forum to deliver inexact informations.
>
>
> > It's the same as last time, only this time you got your Boni allies >to bully the Senate.
>
> I like the alliteration "Boni" and "bully". It is a pleasure reading you, for at least you write with some coherence and style, even if I have the impress that you could compose such speeches about carrots and beans, as well, with the same seriousness.
>
> This said, I would not have used "bully" - if my dictionary gives me the exact meaning of the word - for the senators you are talking about are, like my colleague or I, full members of the senate unless both censors choose removing them.
>
> As I told my colleague in Sweden, I am convinced that the top reforms which Quintilianus cos. and I are working on will need, beyond the "majority", to be worked with and supported by every good willing
> senator.
>
> > You tried to intimidate me with your reply. Not going to work, >Consul. This Tribune will not be intimidated.
>
> Oh no, tribune. I do not. I try to discuss with you (should I speak of you at the third person as you do?) and bring you to agree on what I consider as the best way to 'live' our institutions and being at the same time in conformity with our constitution.
> Put quietly things on the table, with no passion, and I am sure that you will see things differently.
>
> >The Tribunes can veto any magistrate, even consuls. The Constitution >did not changed from last month to this month. The Tribunes' powers >are not being "interpreted" differently this month than they were >last month.
>
> No. My reading is still the same, as I told you above.
>
> > This is crap and you know it.
>
> This is not a logical argument... and you know it. ;-)
>
> (..) Whatever bogus reasons you and your Boni allies concoct, they are just that - bogus.
>
> That's better, and yuo did not to use "crap" to introduce this another alliteration in "b". I am waiting now for the "bubbling", "buffoon", "booby", etc. You are not obliged, this said, to limit yourself to the "bo-"....
>
> > (..) I see, Albucius, you've got the Boni lingo down pat.
>
> Thank you very much: you are reassuring, for at a time some friends of you may say I speak bad... Californian, for example ;-), I am rejoiced to be said that, despite my defaults, I am still able to learn another language and speak it so quick.
>
> Vale tribune and please think on the matter itself,
>
>
>
> Albucius cos.
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Maxima Valeria Messallina <maximavaleriamessallina@> wrote:
> >
> > You didn't say this in May when I pronounced intercessio against your veto. You even withdrew you veto then. Now, I do the same thing again and you cry it's a wrong interpretation? Rubbish!
> > It's the same as last time, only this time you got your Boni allies to bully the Senate. You tried to intimidate me with your reply. Not going to work, Consul. This Tribune will not be intimidated. The Tribunes can veto any magistrate, even consuls. The Constitution did not changed from last month to this month. The Tribunes' powers are not being  "interpreted" differently this month than they were last month. This is crap and you know it. My intercessio was right, just and legal and you chose to ignore it. Whatever bogus reasons you and your Boni allies concoct, they are just that - bogus.
> > It has nothing to do with interpretations or traditions. It has to do with the simple fact that, for whatever personal reasons, you didn't want the Senate to deliberate on Consul Quintilinaus' IT proposal and so you vetoed that item on his agenda - without just cause - just like you did last month on another item of the Senate agenda. I pronounced intercessio now just like I did last month. Both intercessios were just, correct and legal. The only difference is one you abided by and the other you chose to ignore because you it interfered with your schemes, whatever they are.
> > Doublespeak, half-truths, reversal of facts - I see, Albucius, you've got the Boni lingo down pat.
> >  
> > Maxima Valeria Messallina 
> >  
> >  
> >  
> >  
> >  
> >
> >
> > <<--- On Tue, 6/29/10, publiusalbucius <albucius_aoe@> wrote:
> > Omnibus s.d.
> >
> > Strange evening : some people are getting crazy, and now, I can see, reading Messallina tribune, that my veto would have just resigned without any previous warning, and left the ranks...??:! Tu quoque, mi veto !!!???
> >
> > Seriously:
> >
> > 1/ Messallina tb. is right on the writing of our constitution, which does not make the difference between actions and (legal) acts
> >
> > 2/ Her interpretation however does not fit our custom, according which no tribune may veto a consular counter-veto, as the reverse.
> > Admitting such actions would open the door to the possibility that the consuls make a strict interpretation of our constitution and consider the tribunes, as magistrates of "lesser authority" (cf. constitution), and therefore could be vetoed by the consuls.
> > I think that we agree that it is not wishable.
> > Let us be wise, and not touch the frail balance of our institutions.
> >
> > 3/ Unless my vetos has an independant life, I did not withdraw the conservatory veto that I issued on one point of the senatorial agenda.
> >
> > Valete omnes,
> >
> > Albucius cos.>>
> >  
> >  
> >  
> >
> >
> >  
> > >--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Maxima Valeria Messallina <maximavaleriamessallina@> wrote:
> > >
> > > <<--- On Tue, 6/29/10, Cato <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > > Cato Marcio Crispo omnibusque in foro SPD
> > >
> > > The tribune Messallina attempted to overstep her authority in several ways and attempted to issue an unConstitutional intercessio against the consul, which was promptly struck down.>>
> > >  
> > >  
> > > The Tribunes have the authority to pronounce intercessio against the veto of ANY magistrate as stated in our Constitution. I used my authority as a Tribune EXACTLY as I did last month when I pronounced intercessio on the Consul's unjust veto. No one in the Senate said anything about it. Not even Albucius said a word about it being "illegal" in any way. On the contrary, he withdrew his veto.
> > > My intercessio against the veto of Consul Albucius is just as correct and legal now as my intercessio against the veto of Consul Albucius was last month. The Constitution has not changed. The powers of the Tribunes have not changed.
> > > I did not "overstep" my authority now any more than I did last month. My intercessio was not "struck down" because the only way that can happen is for the other Tribunes to counter-veto it and none of the other Tribunes did. My intercessio was ignored, incorrectly, unjustly and illegally ignored. 
> > > Would you like me to tell you what would have happened to anyone, even a consul, if they had ignored a Tribune's veto in ancient Rome? I think you know.
> > >  
> > > Maxima Valeria Messallina
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

Salve,


Congratulations Venii!!!!!


Vale,
Aeternia


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Haec sunt fututi facti Albuciani;-)

> now are my participles correct; I love Latin!
> vale
> Maior
>

Salve Maior! I think something is incorrect somewhere - if only because the
gutter words you are using, on the Main List, are the sort of thing you (as
a former praetrix) should be on the lookout to moderate - if you cannot
moderate your own language, how could anyone vote for you for praetrix
again? A case has been made for strong moderation of this list - a case with
which I don't entirely agree, but a case has been made - and it seems
hypocritical in the extreme to be using such words if you want a hard-line
on moderating offensive posts!

Vale!
~ Valerianus


--
"Qua(e) patres difficillime
adepti sunt nolite
turpiter relinquere" -
Monumentum Bradfordis, Tamaropoli, in civitate Massaciuseta
(Bradford Monument, Plymouth, MA)

Check out my books on Goodreads: <a href="
http://www.goodreads.com/profile/Valerianus?utm_source=email_widget">
http://www.goodreads.com/profile/Valerianus</a>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Because its favorable to the party writing the party. I hate these kinds of comparisons because comparing anything to the fall of Rome does not justice to the turbulence Rome faced during the 300's & 400's whwhich lead to the Western Roman Empires fall.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robert Woolwine <robert.woolwine@...> wrote:
>
> This right here is the quote of the day:
>
> How come when anybody compares the United States to
> Rome<http://www.cnbc.com/id/37994720/>,
> it's always the shitty late-period Rome with its weak Emperors, worthless
> currency, an inability to maintain the borders, runaway public entitlements,
> and--*oh*.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Salvete!

I just was just told I passed my citizenship test today by Cn. Cornelius Lentulus, whom I have found to be a very influential citizen of Nova Roma. I applied for my citizenship in December 2009 and have followed the Nova Roma Yahoo groups discussions ever since, daily. I have only responded once, but find the debate ever interesting and educational. I wanted to celebrate such an occassion with my fellow citizens. I did notice that there is no immediately close Nova Roma provice in my vecinity however. I live in Indianapolis, IN, USA, and the nearest regio appears to be North Carolina. I am by no means wealthy and cannot afford trips to these more distant regions. This very honestly deeply sadens me. I am curious to know what other members may be in my area and what it takes to form a Nova Roma region. Grátiás tibí agó.

Valéte!

C. ANTONI FLAVE

Q Caecilius Metellus C Antonio Flavio sal.

Salue,

I want to respond to you publicly, briefly, though I'll write you
privately in more detail. You are, in fact, smack in the middle of my
former province, Lacus Magni. If I recall correctly, too, Clovius
Ullerius is also in Indianapolis, or at least the metro area; Quaestor
Gualterus Graecus and former citizen (consular and censorial) M
Octavius Gracchus both are in the Chicago area. As I said, I'll
respond to you in more detail privately (in the morning, though), but
I wanted to make that quick minor correction. At any rate, welcome to
the family, and do stay a while.

Vale Bene,

Quintus Caecilius Metellus Postumianus

On 30 June 2010 20:50, Stephen <gaiusantoniusflavius@...> wrote:
> Salvete!
>
> I just was just told I passed my citizenship test today by Cn. Cornelius Lentulus, whom I have found to be a very
> influential citizen of Nova Roma. I applied for my citizenship in December 2009 and have followed the Nova Roma
> Yahoo groups discussions ever since, daily. I have only responded once, but find the debate ever interesting and educational.
> I wanted to celebrate such an occassion with my fellow citizens. I did notice that there is no immediately close Nova Roma
> provice in my vecinity however. I live in Indianapolis, IN, USA, and the nearest regio appears to be North Carolina. I am by no
> means wealthy and cannot afford trips to these more distant regions. This very honestly deeply sadens me. I am curious to
> know what other members may be in my area and what it takes to form a Nova Roma region. Grátiás tibí agó.
>
> Valéte!
>
> C. ANTONI FLAVE
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

C. Equitius Cato C. Antonio Flavio sal.

Congratulations and welcome to the Respublica!

Vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen" <gaiusantoniusflavius@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete!
>
> I just was just told I passed my citizenship test today by Cn. Cornelius Lentulus, whom I have found to be a very influential citizen of Nova Roma. I applied for my citizenship in December 2009 and have followed the Nova Roma Yahoo groups discussions ever since, daily. I have only responded once, but find the debate ever interesting and educational. I wanted to celebrate such an occassion with my fellow citizens. I did notice that there is no immediately close Nova Roma provice in my vecinity however. I live in Indianapolis, IN, USA, and the nearest regio appears to be North Carolina. I am by no means wealthy and cannot afford trips to these more distant regions. This very honestly deeply sadens me. I am curious to know what other members may be in my area and what it takes to form a Nova Roma region. Grátiás tibí agó.
>
> Valéte!
>
> C. ANTONI FLAVE
>

Cn. Lentulus C. Antonio Flavo s. p. d.


Welcome, here, too, in the forum of our Republic! This can be a turbulent place, and you'll see that some people are very angry with each other, but overall, although it will not look apparent, we all love each other here.

>>>> I did notice that there is no immediately close Nova Roma

provice in my vecinity however. I live in Indianapolis, IN, USA, and
the nearest regio appears to be North Carolina. <<<


That's not entirely true, Gaius Antonius, because you right now live in a NR province: Lacus Magni.

http://novaroma.org/nr/Provincia_Lacus_Magni_(Nova_Roma)

>>> Grátiás

tibí agó. <<<


It's very great from you that you have already started to use some Latin expressions!

When you say "thank you" in singular, to one person, "tibi" is good. But to more than one "you", to a group, you say "vóbís", or without the length marks, "vobis".

"Gratias vobis ago" = "I give thanks to you (people)."

In your signature, you used the so called vocative: "Gai Antoni Flave". The vocative serves only to address the person, by changing "ius" to "i" and "us" to "e", Latin makes the effect that the meaning Gaius Antonius Flavus changed to "Hey, listen, Gaius Antonius Flavus", if you say Gai Antoni Flave.

People normally use the vocative only after "Salve" (be welcome).

So in your signature, you can't say to yourself "Gai Antoni Flave" which means "hey G. Antonius Flavus", but you have to write there the normal form of your name, Gaius Antonius Flavus, or abbreviating Gaius, C. Antonius Flavus.

Cura, ut valeas! And a warm welcome again!

Cn. Cornelius Lentulus



--- Gio 1/7/10, Stephen <gaiusantoniusflavius@...> ha scritto:

Da: Stephen <gaiusantoniusflavius@...>
Oggetto: [Nova-Roma] New Citizenship
A: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Data: Giovedì 1 luglio 2010, 05:50







 









Salvete!



I just was just told I passed my citizenship test today by Cn. Cornelius Lentulus, whom I have found to be a very influential citizen of Nova Roma. I applied for my citizenship in December 2009 and have followed the Nova Roma Yahoo groups discussions ever since, daily. I have only responded once, but find the debate ever interesting and educational. I wanted to celebrate such an occassion with my fellow citizens. I did notice that there is no immediately close Nova Roma provice in my vecinity however. I live in Indianapolis, IN, USA, and the nearest regio appears to be North Carolina. I am by no means wealthy and cannot afford trips to these more distant regions. This very honestly deeply sadens me. I am curious to know what other members may be in my area and what it takes to form a Nova Roma region. Grátiás tibí agó.



Valéte!



C. ANTONI FLAVE

























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cato omnibus in foro SPD

Hodiernus dies est Kalendis Quintilibus; haec dies nefastus est.

"When he had accepted these, they assigned to him the charge of filling the Pontine marshes, cutting a canal through the Peloponnesian isthmus, and constructing a new Senate House, since that of Hostilius, although repaired, had been demolished. The reason assigned for its destruction was that a temple of Felicitas was to be built there, which Lepidus, indeed, brought to completion while master of the horse; but their real purpose was that the name of Sulla should not be preserved on it, and that another Senate House, newly constructed, might be named the Julian, even as they had called the month in which he was born July, and one of the tribes, selected by lot, the Julian." Cassius Dio, "Roman History" 44.5.1-2

Today is dedicated to the goddess Fausta Felicitas. In Rome, Felicitas is the goddess or personification of good luck and success, and a prominent symbol of the wealth and prosperity of Rome. Felicitas was unknown before the mid-2nd century BC, when a temple was dedicated to her in the Velabrum in the Campus Martius by Lucius Licinius Lucullus, using spoils from his campaign in Spain. The temple was destroyed by a fire during the reign of Claudius and was never rebuilt.

"Now on the first day of the triumph a portent far from good fell to his [Iulius Caesar] lot: the axle of the triumphal car broke down directly opposite the temple of Fortune built by Lucullus, so that he had to complete the rest of the course in another." - op.cit. 43.21.1

Another temple in Rome was planned by Iulius Caesar and was erected
after his death by Marcus Aemilius Lepidus on the site of the Curia
Hostilia, which had been restored by Lucius Cornelius Sulla but
demolished by Caesar in 44 BC.

Felicitas was known to the Greeks as Eutykhia, the favorable aspect of Tykhe, goddess of both good and bad fortune, chance, and luck.

"To Tykhe, fumigation from Frankincense. Approach, queen Tykhe, with propitious mind and rich abundance, to my prayer inclined: placid and gentle, mighty named, imperial Artemis, born of Eubouleos famed, mankind's unconquered endless praise is thine, sepulchral, widely wandering power divine! In thee our various mortal life is found, and come from thee in copious wealth abound; while others mourn thy hand averse to bless, in all the bitterness of deep distress. Be present, Goddess, to thy votaries kind, and give abundance with benignant mind." - Orphic Hymn 72 to Tykhe (trans. Taylor)

"A workman had thoughtlessly fallen asleep one night next to a well. While he slept, he seemed to hear the voice of Tykhe, the goddess of fortune, as she stood there beside him. 'Hey you,' the goddess said, 'you'd better wake up! I am afraid that if you fall into the well, I will be the one that people blame, giving me a bad reputation. In general, people blame me for everything that happens to them, including the unfortunate events and tumbles for which a person really has only himself to blame.'" - Aesop, "Fables" 470

From the Mythic Index:

"Felicitas is frequently seen on Roman medals, in the form of a matron, with the staff of Mercury (caduceus) and a cornucopia. Sometimes also she has other attributes, according to the kind of happiness she represents. (Lindner, de Felicitate Dea ex Numis illustrata, Arnstadt, 1770; Rasche, Lex Num. ii. 1, p. 956.) The Greeks worshipped the same personification, under the name of Eutuchia [Tykhe], who is frequently represented in works of art." -
http://www.mythindex.com/roman-mythology/F/Felicitas.html

Valete,

Cato

>
> A. Tullia Scholastica cubitum itura C. Tullio Valeriano S.P.D.
>
>
>
> Haec <omissis> Albuciani;-)
>
>> > now are my participles correct; I love Latin!
>> > vale
>> > Maior
>> >
>
> Salve Maior! I think something is incorrect somewhere - if only because the
> gutter words you are using, on the Main List, are the sort of thing you (as
> a former praetrix) should be on the lookout to moderate - if you cannot
> moderate your own language, how could anyone vote for you for praetrix
> again?
>
> ATS: Omnino assentior. Gutter language does not belong here, whether it
> is in Latin or Akkadian or Kwakiutl. Earlier today we saw a bastion of the BA
> use vulgar language, and now a candidate for the praetura (of all things!) is
> suffering from the delusion that concealing such thoughts in a cul-chahed
> Latin drapery is going to hide them (maybe elsewhere, but not here)! I could
> not agree more with my classical colleague. One must recognize what is wrong,
> and correct it, not fall into the trap of using more of the same.
>
> The participles may be correct, but there are other issues involved here.
> I seriously doubt that the parents of our minor members want their charges to
> learn drunken sailor vocabulary in Latin...or anything else. If they do, the
> kids should be removed from the home...
>
>
> A case has been made for strong moderation of this list - a case with
> which I don't entirely agree, but a case has been made - and it seems
> hypocritical in the extreme to be using such words if you want a hard-line
> on moderating offensive posts!
>
> ATS: Rem acu tetigisti, collega! Perhaps, though, it is only religion
> which is offensive...
>
> Vale!
> ~ Valerianus
>
> Vale, et valete.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Salve, Venator, et salvete, omnes!
>
> Congratulations to all concerned!
>
>
>
>
> Salvete omnes;
>
> My niece - god daughter Erica is in hospital as I type having just
> given birth to a son.
>
> On 26 August 2006 I was honored to perform her wedding, wondering
> aloud where the previous 23 years since I had held her as an infant
> for her Baptism had flown...
>
> Erica is the eldest child of my youngest sister (Cathy), who I think
> is among the best and brightest of my generation of our family (along
> with three of my female 1st cousins).
>
> No other details, my mom just wanted to let me know there was a healthy birth.
>
> Thank the Gods!!!
>
> Venator
>
> Vale, et valete!
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

SALVE!
 
Congratulations! May the Gods bless him and your family!
 
VALE,
T. Iulius Sabinus

"Every individual is the architect of his own fortune" - Appius Claudius

--- On Thu, 7/1/10, Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator <famila.ulleria.venii@...> wrote:


From: Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator <famila.ulleria.venii@...>
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Venator is a Grand Uncle...
To: "NR-Main List" <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Thursday, July 1, 2010, 3:27 AM


 



Salvete omnes;

My niece - god daughter Erica is in hospital as I type having just
given birth to a son.

On 26 August 2006 I was honored to perform her wedding, wondering
aloud where the previous 23 years since I had held her as an infant
for her Baptism had flown...

Erica is the eldest child of my youngest sister (Cathy), who I think
is among the best and brightest of my generation of our family (along
with three of my female 1st cousins).

No other details, my mom just wanted to let me know there was a healthy birth.

Thank the Gods!!!

Venator










[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cn. Lentulus legatus pro praetore Pannoniae Quiritinus sal.


I announce you, Quirites, that the VIth Nova Roma Summer Camp in Pannonia, (in Szolnok, Hungary) organized jointly with the Gladius Reenactor Society,

will take place between:

JULY 5 - JULY 11.

The program is as usual:

- legionary drill and training,
- daily life in Roman Pannonia: civilians and barbarians,
- gladiatorial combat,
- religious celebrations to the Gods and a sacrifice to Mithras,
- lectures about Roman history, religion and culture.


We can receive guests who are Nova Roman citizens, so if anybody wants to join us, we are most glad and you will be most welcome!

We can give free accommodation!

E-mail me at:

cn_corn_lent@...


VALETE QVRITES!

CN. CORNELIVS LENTVLVS
LEGATVS PRO PRAETORE PANNONAE

Salvete,
I feel like a broken record player saying the same thing over and over, but I don't think I have yet to ask: Why do we separate the Plebs from the Pats by when we joined? Should there not be a different system. Granted it is similar to the way our ancestors decided but as we prove time and time again we can change from their ways.
This has been bothering me for a good week or two.
Di Vos Imcolumes Custodiant
Nero

Lentulus Neroni sal.


That's a very good question and there is a very definitive answer to that.

The division between plebeians and patricians was not a division of merits, wealth, etc.

The division between plebeians and patricians was based on the NAME. It's hereditary, and means that patricians are the descendants of those first Romans who were around the founding of Rome, and were its first important families. It might happen, and happened many times in ancient Rome, that some plebeians were million times richer than many patricians. For example, L. Sergius Catilina or C. Iulius Caesar, both patrician, were relatively poor men, while Cn. Pompeius Magnus or Crassus, or Lucullus, all 3 plebeians, were the riches statesmen in Rome.

In Nova Roma we follow and resurrect the traditions of our ancestors, the ancient Romans. Our patricians are those families in Nova Roma, who were the most important people around the founding of Nova Roma, and those gens-mates of theirs, who joined in the first few (5-6) years, which still can be considered the legendary times of our foundation.

And why to follow that tradition?

It's an essential component of a Roman community.

Those people who are at the beginning of the founding of a new sacred entity, such as like our republic and religion, are themselves sacred people, by the fact that they contacted first the gods in this new endeavor, they are the first whom the gods recognized as their people. This is why in ancient Rome the patricians could only be priest for a very long time, and the argument was that the patricians carried the sacredness of Roman religious instututions in themselves.

It was so basic and elementary evidence to them, that any time the Romans founded a new colony, a new community, their first colonists were the same way entitled patricians -- not of Rome, but of the new community. One could be, e.g. a plebeian of Rome, and a patrician of Arpinum.

Even when the distinction between the two castes became extremely obsolete, Romans never gave up that idea, until the Christian emperors, in the 4th century invented a new system, in which the title patrician was granted to those clients of the emperor who served him most faithfull, and filled the consulship, too. This new patrician title was a royal distinction, and was not hereditary. At that time, only a dozen of people could bear that title in the same time.

Cura, ut valeas!

Cn. Lentulus

--- Gio 1/7/10, Nero <rikudemyx@...> ha scritto:

Da: Nero <rikudemyx@...>
Oggetto: [Nova-Roma] Plebians and Patricians.
A: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Data: Giovedì 1 luglio 2010, 14:36







 









Salvete,

I feel like a broken record player saying the same thing over and over, but I don't think I have yet to ask: Why do we separate the Plebs from the Pats by when we joined? Should there not be a different system. Granted it is similar to the way our ancestors decided but as we prove time and time again we can change from their ways.

This has been bothering me for a good week or two.

Di Vos Imcolumes Custodiant

Nero

























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

That is correct I do reside macro nationally in Indianapolis, IN

Clovius

>
> Q Caecilius Metellus C Antonio Flavio sal.
>
> Salue,
>
> I want to respond to you publicly, briefly, though I'll write you
> privately in more detail. You are, in fact, smack in the middle of my
> former province, Lacus Magni. If I recall correctly, too, Clovius
> Ullerius is also in Indianapolis, or at least the metro area; Quaestor
> Gualterus Graecus and former citizen (consular and censorial) M
> Octavius Gracchus both are in the Chicago area. As I said, I'll
> respond to you in more detail privately (in the morning, though), but
> I wanted to make that quick minor correction. At any rate, welcome to
> the family, and do stay a while.
>
> Vale Bene,
>
> Quintus Caecilius Metellus Postumianus
>
> On 30 June 2010 20:50, Stephen <gaiusantoniusflavius@...
> <mailto:gaiusantoniusflavius%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
> > Salvete!
> >
> > I just was just told I passed my citizenship test today by Cn.
> Cornelius Lentulus, whom I have found to be a very
> > influential citizen of Nova Roma. I applied for my citizenship in
> December 2009 and have followed the Nova Roma
> > Yahoo groups discussions ever since, daily. I have only responded
> once, but find the debate ever interesting and educational.
> > I wanted to celebrate such an occassion with my fellow citizens. I
> did notice that there is no immediately close Nova Roma
> > provice in my vecinity however. I live in Indianapolis, IN, USA, and
> the nearest regio appears to be North Carolina. I am by no
> > means wealthy and cannot afford trips to these more distant regions.
> This very honestly deeply sadens me. I am curious to
> > know what other members may be in my area and what it takes to form
> a Nova Roma region. Grátiás tibí agó.
> >
> > Valéte!
> >
> > C. ANTONI FLAVE
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cato Neroni sal.

Really the only difference that I can see is the ability of the plebs to vote for peculiarly plebeian offices, which patricians can't do. But since those offices - particularly the tribunes whose job was basically to protect the plebs *from* the patricians - are now bound to "protect" all citizens, it's a fair question.

Vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Nero" <rikudemyx@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete,
> I feel like a broken record player saying the same thing over and over, but I don't think I have yet to ask: Why do we separate the Plebs from the Pats by when we joined? Should there not be a different system. Granted it is similar to the way our ancestors decided but as we prove time and time again we can change from their ways.
> This has been bothering me for a good week or two.
> Di Vos Imcolumes Custodiant
> Nero
>

M. Hortensia A. Tulliae C. Valeriano sd;
since the verb f**tere is in the Oxford Latin Dictionary, and examples of its use are given with Catullus, Horace and Martial. I would say I'm in good classical company.

What is interesting that Valerianus reported me to the praetorial scribae for a latin verb as opposed to the bullying and defamation of me by his friends Sulla and Cato. I don't think Valerianus you would be too happy if I called the school you teach at; would you?
vale
Maior

> >
> > Salve Maior! I think something is incorrect somewhere - if only because the
> > gutter words you are using, on the Main List, are the sort of thing you (as
> > a former praetrix) should be on the lookout to moderate - if you cannot
> > moderate your own language, how could anyone vote for you for praetrix
> > again?
> >
> > ATS: Omnino assentior. Gutter language does not belong here, whether it
> > is in Latin or Akkadian or Kwakiutl. Earlier today we saw a bastion of the BA
> > use vulgar language, and now a candidate for the praetura (of all things!) is
> > suffering from the delusion that concealing such thoughts in a cul-chahed
> > Latin drapery is going to hide them (maybe elsewhere, but not here)! I could
> > not agree more with my classical colleague. One must recognize what is wrong,
> > and correct it, not fall into the trap of using more of the same.
> >
> > The participles may be correct, but there are other issues involved here.
> > I seriously doubt that the parents of our minor members want their charges to
> > learn drunken sailor vocabulary in Latin...or anything else. If they do, the
> > kids should be removed from the home...
> >
> >
> > A case has been made for strong moderation of this list - a case with
> > which I don't entirely agree, but a case has been made - and it seems
> > hypocritical in the extreme to be using such words if you want a hard-line
> > on moderating offensive posts!
> >
> > ATS: Rem acu tetigisti, collega! Perhaps, though, it is only religion
> > which is offensive...
> >
> > Vale!
> > ~ Valerianus
> >
> > Vale, et valete.
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

That was an excellent answer Cornelius, and saved me from writing the exact
thing. I believe this should be on our website.
You did forget that all ranking Generals in the 5th cent CE were also
called "Patricians" and hence the historical title "The Patrician Period" for
that Roman army. But, a little thing.
Again, well done!

- Q. Fabius Maximus
Patrician

In a message dated 7/1/2010 6:13:45 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
cn_corn_lent@... writes:


The division between plebeians and patricians was not a division of
merits, wealth, etc.

The division between plebeians and patricians was based on the NAME. It's
hereditary, and means that patricians are the descendants of those first
Romans who were around the founding of Rome, and were its first important
families. In Nova Roma we follow and resurrect the traditions of our
ancestors, the ancient Romans. Our patricians are those families in Nova Roma, who
were the most important people around the founding of Nova Roma, and those
gens-mates of theirs, who joined in the first few (5-6) years, which still
can be considered the legendary times of our foundation.






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gaius Tullius Valerianus M. Hortensiae Maiori S.P.D.

Salve! I did not report you to anybody - in fact, the point of my post was
that, since we currently have no praetrices due to your own resignation,
there would be nobody to whom I COULD report you if I wanted to . . . but
that since you're running for the office again, I would think you would want
to have a little more care. Perhaps I should have sent you this advice
privately, off-list, but I just didn't think of that, since your unfortunate
post was so public.

Anyway, I say again, I did not report you - I didn't have to - you committed
this act publicly;everyone saw it, including all those minors whom you want
to protect with "strong moderation." But you're right in that I will have no
part in bullying or defamation of anyone. Do you remember when you were a
Back Alley member and I defended you from some of the senseless abuse hurled
your way? I stand by that; you didn't deserve that treatment at that time.
And I'm not opposed to using the verb you did on this list, in theory
(incidentally, Catullus is my favorite poet of all time!) - I'm opposed to
the hypocrisy of demanding strong moderation, then flouting it.

I'm sorry, Maior, but if there were any chance you were going to get my
vote, you just lost it. I have not made any endorsements for this election
previously, but I can say for certain that you apparent disregard for your
own platform means I cannot vote for you, and I doubt any other citizen who
cares about Nova Roma can do so in good conscience either. And the saddest
part is, Maior, I don't doubt your commitment to living Romanitas, and to
the use of Latin - but you have proven BEYOND doubt your lack of commitment
to integrity, especially if you think you can threaten and bully me for some
imagined wrong I've done you. I certainly won't be standing up to defend you
any more.

Vale.

>
> since the verb f**tere is in the Oxford Latin Dictionary, and examples of
> its use are given with Catullus, Horace and Martial. I would say I'm in good
> classical company.
>
> What is interesting that Valerianus reported me to the praetorial scribae
> for a latin verb as opposed to the bullying and defamation of me by his
> friends Sulla and Cato. I don't think Valerianus you would be too happy if I
> called the school you teach at; would you?
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 7/1/2010 3:27:13 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
cn_corn_lent@... writes:

- legionary drill and training,
- daily life in Roman Pannonia: civilians and barbarians,
- gladiatorial combat,
- religious celebrations to the Gods and a sacrifice to Mithras,
- lectures about Roman history, religion and culture.

We can receive guests who are Nova Roman citizens, so if anybody wants to
join us, we are most glad and you will be most welcome!





Mithras? So the the Legio is 3rd cent CE? Why does not people wish to do
a re enactment of a Republican Legio?

After all, it is the most interesting period for legio development, and the
greatest conquest period for Rome.

- Q. Fabius Maximus
.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gaia Valeria Pulchra Valeriano S.P.D.

I must say I disagree with you on the use of this verb. You stated that
it's not the use of the word you disagree with, but the contradiction you
see in it's use. I find it offensive and inappropriate for public use. I too
love Catullus, but I would not read some of his work aloud in public. You
and I seldom disagree, but here I must speak up. That type of language has
no place on the Main List. It's vulgar, it's unbecoming of a lady or
gentleman, and it's decidedly lacking in dignitas. Vulgarity is something to
be used with great care, in the most limited of private company.
I obviously think of you as a man of great character. I would not have
entered a sacred bond with someone who did not posses the kind of moral
fiber that I require in a partner. I remember when you defended Maior from
so rather unsavory language, and I applaud your effort now as I did then. I
remember the private discussions we had during that time in which we
understood where our friends were coming from, but we felt that their choice
of language was unfortunate. If we felt some of those insults were
inappropriate for the Back Alley, then isn't this word, which is arguably
more foul then the words used on the BA, even more unacceptable to you?
Perhaps I have misunderstood your post, if so I hope you will correct me.
I'm simply a bit confused. If you found it unacceptable for insults like
"Nazi" to be used on the much more casual and private Back Alley, I should
think the use of one of the most objectionable curse words on the Main List
would horrify you.


"Have you ever had one of those days when something just seems to be trying
to tell you somebody?"


John Constantine, in SANDMAN #3: "Dream a Little Dream of Me"

On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 4:31 PM, Colin Brodd <magisterbrodd@...> wrote:

>
>
> Gaius Tullius Valerianus M. Hortensiae Maiori S.P.D.
>
> Salve! I did not report you to anybody - in fact, the point of my post was
> that, since we currently have no praetrices due to your own resignation,
> there would be nobody to whom I COULD report you if I wanted to . . . but
> that since you're running for the office again, I would think you would
> want
> to have a little more care. Perhaps I should have sent you this advice
> privately, off-list, but I just didn't think of that, since your
> unfortunate
> post was so public.
>
> Anyway, I say again, I did not report you - I didn't have to - you
> committed
> this act publicly;everyone saw it, including all those minors whom you want
> to protect with "strong moderation." But you're right in that I will have
> no
> part in bullying or defamation of anyone. Do you remember when you were a
> Back Alley member and I defended you from some of the senseless abuse
> hurled
> your way? I stand by that; you didn't deserve that treatment at that time.
> And I'm not opposed to using the verb you did on this list, in theory
> (incidentally, Catullus is my favorite poet of all time!) - I'm opposed to
> the hypocrisy of demanding strong moderation, then flouting it.
>
> I'm sorry, Maior, but if there were any chance you were going to get my
> vote, you just lost it. I have not made any endorsements for this election
> previously, but I can say for certain that you apparent disregard for your
> own platform means I cannot vote for you, and I doubt any other citizen who
> cares about Nova Roma can do so in good conscience either. And the saddest
> part is, Maior, I don't doubt your commitment to living Romanitas, and to
> the use of Latin - but you have proven BEYOND doubt your lack of commitment
> to integrity, especially if you think you can threaten and bully me for
> some
> imagined wrong I've done you. I certainly won't be standing up to defend
> you
> any more.
>
> Vale.
>
>
> >
> > since the verb f**tere is in the Oxford Latin Dictionary, and examples of
> > its use are given with Catullus, Horace and Martial. I would say I'm in
> good
> > classical company.
> >
> > What is interesting that Valerianus reported me to the praetorial scribae
> > for a latin verb as opposed to the bullying and defamation of me by his
> > friends Sulla and Cato. I don't think Valerianus you would be too happy
> if I
> > called the school you teach at; would you?
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hortensiae s.d.

You have already issued an offensive, insulting and vulgar message in a senatorial list. I have not wished, as you well know, underlining the infractions that you have committed there, preferring bidding on your cleverness, your dignitas, your seniority and the fact that, as you were candidate for praetor, you would be eager to behave as you would demand our cives and fora members to do.

But today, I receive communication of the sentence below (Message #77198 of 77216 Thu Jul 1, 2010 6:10 am) :

"Haec sunt fututi facti Albuciani ;-)"

Here too, I will not charge you for the insult addressed to the consul but address the insult to the citizen.

I have just asked the praetorian team to place you under moderation for 72 hours, from this Kal. Quint. 21:00 Rome time to next a.d. IV Nonas Quint., same hour.

The fact that the latin verb "futuere" be in a Latin dictionary, as many English insults are in most current dictionaries, does not delete the insulting character of this sentence, and the fact that such kind of insult is not authorized by our edictum de sermone as, besides, the rule you preferred to refer to when praetor, Yahoo!'s TOS. Please try to learn the differences between humor and insult if you cannot well see them.

In addition, your behavior is not admissible coming from a candidate to the praetura, and you seem not realizing that you do exactly the same than what you would be in charge, if elected, to sanction as praetrix.


Whatever you may think, politically, of this or that civis, officer or magistrate, your arguments are welcome from the moment they remain in the frame of our legal rules.



You will remark, last, that I am keeping silence on the fact that you have published your insulting letter, issued in the senatorial list, in your message in the Main List, though every discussion in such lists are supposed to be displayed just to the concerned people.

This letter of notification will be published in our Forum romanum. Every legal appeal, allowed by Nova Roma laws, is available for you, naturally.

Vale,


Albucius cos.
p. praet.






_________________________________________________________________
Allumez et éteignez votre PC en un instant avec Windows 7 !
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete Omnes!!!

Parker Ian Kelley entered this world at 7:59 PM Eastern US on 30 June 2010.

My great nephew was 7# 7oz and 20 1/2" at birth.

My sister Cathy tells me that baby, momma, daddy and all are doing well.

My family now has FIVE living generations.

I has a HAPPY!

Venator

In a message dated 7/1/2010 2:08:11 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
albucius_aoe@... writes:

I have just asked the praetorian team to place you under moderation for 72
hours, from this Kal. Quint. 21:00 Rome time to next a.d. IV Nonas Quint.,
same hour.





Consul, People of N. Rome

I am not one to second guess your ruling here, but I am puzzled by the term
moderation...

What exactly does moderation mean in Nova Roma?

Does this mean you have sent a list of words to Senator Maior that are
objectionable? And in order to continue to post here in the Forum, she must
not use them? Or she cannot post ANYTHING for 72 hours?

I only ask because it seems to me we should define this term for future
magistrates.

What do you think it means, Fabius?

Well I'm glad you asked. Moderate in my interpretation means just that.
The violator is warned to not say certain things, or face further
moderation. It means to adjust your speech.

The problem with this is what does it accomplish? Well nothing. The
violator is free to continue to post just as long as they do not cross a pre
determined line. But who determines this line? And how does the violator
knows what it is? There is great area for abuse.
This is something else that must be addressed under the Yahoo TOS.

Vale et Valete

- Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gaius Tullius Valerianus Pulchrae suae S.P.D.

I would be happy to clarify my position on the use of the verb in
question, *uxor mea*. I said that *in theory, *I had no objection to that
word itself, and this is true. Words are important, words have power, but
I'm not afraid of words. Furthermore, the Romans did not necessarily
consider that particular word to be especially obscene, which is a cultural
(and legal) difference between the Romans and we moderns. The Romans would
not have necessarily objected to the public use of the word, and I'm not
sure that I would either, *in theory. *In *practice, *however, the word and
its connotations are considered obscene in most modern societies, and in
custom on this list. In addition to the social responsibility to avoid this
type of language on the Main List, we have a legal one (since this is a
public forum open to minors). So much for my *theoretical *lack of a problem
with this particular word.

I thank you for your compliments about my character. I know that my
defense of Maior when she was being called a Nazi, and Goebbels, and other
such horrid things was a surprise to some people, but I would not and will
not stand by while someone is abused in that manner. Maior and I have plenty
of political differences, but I didn't think she merited any of that, and I
still don't, not on the Back Alley, not on the Main List, not anywhere.
Anyway, to try to clarify, I did and do object to crude and cruel insults
flung at Maior even in a private discussion on a private list, because (as I
said at the time), such behavior showed a distinct lack of *Dignitas. *The
difference between that and the use of this crude word in Catullus or
Martial or some other artist is, of course, that in Catullus' world he did
not necessarily suffer a loss of *Dignitas *for using the word. I felt that
anyone who called Maior "Goebbels" and such *did *damage their own D*ignitas.
*And now to the real point - that fact that I said I had no
*theoretical *objection
to the word today (although plenty of practical ones, such as the very real
legal and social issues involved, not to mention the vulgarity that you
observed is now implied) does not mean that the word should have been used
here. It shouldn't. In fact, it seems to have been used in an attempt to
crudely insult one of our esteemed consuls, which is as lacking in *Dignitas
*as I can imagine!

I am glad, *uxor mea, *that you still applaud my former defense of
Maior - I know I won few friends by so doing at the time! I suppose I didn't
really mean it when I said I wouldn't be defending her any more - under the
same circumstances, honor demands that I do the same thing again. There has
been little *amicitia *between Maior and myself over the years, but I
wouldn't let that stop me from doing what is right, as you know. But it is
my hope that after this unfortunate outburst, we can all return to a more
dignified form of discourse, even with and about those with whom we
disagree. If one wants to talk about the consul (or anyone else) that way,
they should take it to the Back Alley (which I know Maior cannot, since she
was also unable to follow the rules there, and her repeated violations led
to her lifetime banishment, but that doesn't excuse bringing such discourse
to the Main List, it just means that one should hold one's tongue entirely).

Cura ut valeas, carissima uxor mea!

> of language was unfortunate. If we felt some of those insults were
> inappropriate for the Back Alley, then isn't this word, which is arguably
> more foul then the words used on the BA, even more unacceptable to you?
> Perhaps I have misunderstood your post, if so I hope you will correct me.
> I'm simply a bit confused. If you found it unacceptable for insults like
> "Nazi" to be used on the much more casual and private Back Alley, I should
> think the use of one of the most objectionable curse words on the Main List
> would horrify you.
>
>
> "Have you ever had one of those days when something just seems to be trying
> to tell you somebody?"
>
>
> John Constantine, in SANDMAN #3: "Dream a Little Dream of Me"
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 4:31 PM, Colin Brodd <magisterbrodd@...>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Gaius Tullius Valerianus M. Hortensiae Maiori S.P.D.
> >
> > Salve! I did not report you to anybody - in fact, the point of my post
> was
> > that, since we currently have no praetrices due to your own resignation,
> > there would be nobody to whom I COULD report you if I wanted to . . . but
> > that since you're running for the office again, I would think you would
> > want
> > to have a little more care. Perhaps I should have sent you this advice
> > privately, off-list, but I just didn't think of that, since your
> > unfortunate
> > post was so public.
> >
> > Anyway, I say again, I did not report you - I didn't have to - you
> > committed
> > this act publicly;everyone saw it, including all those minors whom you
> want
> > to protect with "strong moderation." But you're right in that I will have
> > no
> > part in bullying or defamation of anyone. Do you remember when you were a
> > Back Alley member and I defended you from some of the senseless abuse
> > hurled
> > your way? I stand by that; you didn't deserve that treatment at that
> time.
> > And I'm not opposed to using the verb you did on this list, in theory
> > (incidentally, Catullus is my favorite poet of all time!) - I'm opposed
> to
> > the hypocrisy of demanding strong moderation, then flouting it.
> >
> > I'm sorry, Maior, but if there were any chance you were going to get my
> > vote, you just lost it. I have not made any endorsements for this
> election
> > previously, but I can say for certain that you apparent disregard for
> your
> > own platform means I cannot vote for you, and I doubt any other citizen
> who
> > cares about Nova Roma can do so in good conscience either. And the
> saddest
> > part is, Maior, I don't doubt your commitment to living Romanitas, and to
> > the use of Latin - but you have proven BEYOND doubt your lack of
> commitment
> > to integrity, especially if you think you can threaten and bully me for
> > some
> > imagined wrong I've done you. I certainly won't be standing up to defend
> > you
> > any more.
> >
> > Vale.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > since the verb f**tere is in the Oxford Latin Dictionary, and examples
> of
> > > its use are given with Catullus, Horace and Martial. I would say I'm in
> > good
> > > classical company.
> > >
> > > What is interesting that Valerianus reported me to the praetorial
> scribae
> > > for a latin verb as opposed to the bullying and defamation of me by his
> > > friends Sulla and Cato. I don't think Valerianus you would be too happy
> > if I
> > > called the school you teach at; would you?
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

--
"Qua(e) patres difficillime
adepti sunt nolite
turpiter relinquere" -
Monumentum Bradfordis, Tamaropoli, in civitate Massaciuseta
(Bradford Monument, Plymouth, MA)

Check out my books on Goodreads: <a href="
http://www.goodreads.com/profile/Valerianus?utm_source=email_widget">
http://www.goodreads.com/profile/Valerianus</a>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Maxime,

Legio I Italica in Italy, apart from the Imperial Roman equipment, also has
Republican equipment and does Republican Roman re-enactment. The truth of
the matter is that those republican shields are bloody heavy. They are
smaller than the Imperial ones, but heavier and clumsier.

But the reason Legio XXI Rapax does Imperial time reenactment is that the
original legion in Pannonia dated from Imperial time.

Optime vale,
Livia

>
> Mithras? So the the Legio is 3rd cent CE? Why does not people wish to
> do
> a re enactment of a Republican Legio?
>
> After all, it is the most interesting period for legio development, and
> the
> greatest conquest period for Rome.
>
> - Q. Fabius Maximus
> .
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

Salve Consularis,

You welcome.

The notion of moderation is currently defined by the article 11 of the current edictum de sermone, that you may consult in the files section of this list :

""Article 11 :

In case of violation of the present edict and inside its frame, the praetors are allowed to take against the infringer one or several among the following measures:

1/ a private reminder of the rules promulgated by the present text
2/ a public reminder of the rules promulgated by the present text
3/ a modification of the posting status of the infringer
4/ the removal of the infringer from the ML.
5/ the ban of the infringer from the ML.


The modification of the posting status of the infringer can, independently of her/his general status (for example as a civis of Nova Roma), be the following one:

- the moderation of her/his messages, i.e. the fact that these ones be checked, before being issued in the FR [forum romanum], by one of the moderation praetorian office;"".

So, in this case, in like all other situations of moderation before, Hortensia will be allowed to post, after the previous checking of the praetura. At the end of the moderation time, she will recover the general "group settings" status, as every normal citizen or member.

Vale,


Albucius cos.
p. praet.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, QFabiusMaxmi@... wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 7/1/2010 2:08:11 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> albucius_aoe@... writes:
>
> I have just asked the praetorian team to place you under moderation for 72
> hours, from this Kal. Quint. 21:00 Rome time to next a.d. IV Nonas Quint.,
> same hour.

> Consul, People of N. Rome
>
> I am not one to second guess your ruling here, but I am puzzled by the term
> moderation...
>
> What exactly does moderation mean in Nova Roma?
>
> Does this mean you have sent a list of words to Senator Maior that are
> objectionable? And in order to continue to post here in the Forum, she must
> not use them? Or she cannot post ANYTHING for 72 hours?
>
> I only ask because it seems to me we should define this term for future
> magistrates.
>
> What do you think it means, Fabius?
>
> Well I'm glad you asked. Moderate in my interpretation means just that.
> The violator is warned to not say certain things, or face further
> moderation. It means to adjust your speech.
>
> The problem with this is what does it accomplish? Well nothing. The
> violator is free to continue to post just as long as they do not cross a pre
> determined line. But who determines this line? And how does the violator
> knows what it is? There is great area for abuse.
> This is something else that must be addressed under the Yahoo TOS.
>
> Vale et Valete
>
> - Q. Fabius Maximus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

C. Maria Caeca C. Antonio Flavio S. P. D.

Welcome to Nova Roma! Yes, it can be a turbulent place ...and it's a complicated place, sometimes, but I think, if you stay a while, and do some investigating, observe us and get to know some of us a little, you will find that we are worth the challenge. Btw, If you haven't done so, you might want to consider joining the Newroman list, which is dedicated to helping new citizens orient themselves in NR. You will find many knowledgeable people there who will be delighted to answer any questions you might have. You can easily join via email by sending to: Newroman-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

I agree that it's great to see you using some Latin! When I was in your position ...I think I knew, more or less, salve and vale ...and that was just about *all* I knew, LOL, but I'm learning! You may know already what I did in my salutation to you, but, just in case ...what I said was Gaia (yes, you abbreviate Gaius using C. not G) Maria Caeca sends greeting to Gaius Antonius Flavius. However, I had to put your name into the dative case, which is the case which expresses the idea of to or for ...hence the different endings.

Again, a warm welcome to NR, and I hope that your stay with us will be valuable to you, and enjoyable.

Vale Bene,
C. Maria Caeca

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 7/1/2010 2:37:40 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
livia.plauta@... writes:

Legio I Italica in Italy, apart from the Imperial Roman equipment, also
has
Republican equipment and does Republican Roman re-enactment. The truth of
the matter is that those republican shields are bloody heavy. They are
smaller than the Imperial ones, but heavier and clumsier.



Smaller? In the late Republic they started to sheer off the tops and
bottoms to save weight. So no way it was smaller.
In Imperial times, they then removed the curved sides of the oval, so the
shield looks like a cylinder. Only the Praetorians retained the old shield.
But there was some problem with the design so they reverted back to the
curved oval by second cent CE. Apparently the Auxilia who had retained the
oval were better protected from missiles.
This was important as Rome's enemies were increasingly making use of the
bow.

- Q Fabius Maximus
Praefectus Legionus
SodalitasMilitarium


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve!

My name is Arnold C., my chosen name on Novaroma is Gaius Cassius Vespa and I passed the citizenship test in the later half of May. I'm sadly only now making the rounds to introduce myself on the various mailing lists. I reside in what I recently learned is Civitas Novum Eboracum, or New York City. Additionally, I am currently a student attending a state university member college. I am also taking drawing courses at an Atelier while exploring employment opportunities in writing and editing.

I became aware of Novaroma, I believe, sometime in 2008 and joined out of curiosity a year later completing my citizenship last month. I was fortunate to briefly make the acquaintance of Flavius Vedius Germanicus on the Greece/Rome group that was on meetup.com, but overall I'm still new to all of this.

I've always been curious about ancient cultures and history. One of my goals is to hopefully join a group, or class, and learn the Latin language. I'm definitely open to exploring what remains of the ancient world, ruins, history, and knowledge alike.

Ultimately, I'm looking to have new fulfilling experiences.

Valete,
C. Cassius Vespa

Welcome and enjoy Nova Roma!

Vale,

Sulla

On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 7:17 PM, gaiuscassiusvespa <c.arnold@...>wrote:

>
>
> Salve!
>
> My name is Arnold C., my chosen name on Novaroma is Gaius Cassius Vespa and
> I passed the citizenship test in the later half of May. I'm sadly only now
> making the rounds to introduce myself on the various mailing lists. I reside
> in what I recently learned is Civitas Novum Eboracum, or New York City.
> Additionally, I am currently a student attending a state university member
> college. I am also taking drawing courses at an Atelier while exploring
> employment opportunities in writing and editing.
>
> I became aware of Novaroma, I believe, sometime in 2008 and joined out of
> curiosity a year later completing my citizenship last month. I was fortunate
> to briefly make the acquaintance of Flavius Vedius Germanicus on the
> Greece/Rome group that was on meetup.com, but overall I'm still new to all
> of this.
>
> I've always been curious about ancient cultures and history. One of my
> goals is to hopefully join a group, or class, and learn the Latin language.
> I'm definitely open to exploring what remains of the ancient world, ruins,
> history, and knowledge alike.
>
> Ultimately, I'm looking to have new fulfilling experiences.
>
> Valete,
> C. Cassius Vespa
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

C. Maria Caeca C. Cassio Vespae S. P. D.

Congratulations!!!!! We are accruing quite a crop of fledgling citizens, and this is absolutely delightful! As it happens ...Gramatica I, the beginning Latin course, will be open for application quite soon. It uses a traditional approach, (and I can tell you, from first hand experience that, although it isn't easy by any stretch, the instruction is excellent, and it is very much worth the effort. Watch this list and the Main list for the announcement from the course instructor, A. Tullia Scholastica ...and we will help you achieve (well, *she* will help you) one of you goals!

Meanwhile, welcome, Cives!

Vale bene,
C. Maria Caeca, who still remembers how excited she was when she first became a citizen ...and, even after ...what? 4 years? still is!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cato Cassio Vespo sal.

Welcome to the Respublica! As it happens, I also live in Novum Eboracum, on the UES.

Vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gaiuscassiusvespa" <c.arnold@...> wrote:
>
> Salve!
>
> My name is Arnold C., my chosen name on Novaroma is Gaius Cassius Vespa and I passed the citizenship test in the later half of May. I'm sadly only now making the rounds to introduce myself on the various mailing lists. I reside in what I recently learned is Civitas Novum Eboracum, or New York City. Additionally, I am currently a student attending a state university member college. I am also taking drawing courses at an Atelier while exploring employment opportunities in writing and editing.
>
> I became aware of Novaroma, I believe, sometime in 2008 and joined out of curiosity a year later completing my citizenship last month. I was fortunate to briefly make the acquaintance of Flavius Vedius Germanicus on the Greece/Rome group that was on meetup.com, but overall I'm still new to all of this.
>
> I've always been curious about ancient cultures and history. One of my goals is to hopefully join a group, or class, and learn the Latin language. I'm definitely open to exploring what remains of the ancient world, ruins, history, and knowledge alike.
>
> Ultimately, I'm looking to have new fulfilling experiences.
>
> Valete,
> C. Cassius Vespa
>

In a message dated 7/1/2010 8:29:25 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
rory12001@... writes:

Salvete; I'm not objecting to Albucius as praetor or the sentence. That is
fine But the day July 1, is nefastus. I refer you to the Nova Roma
calender and the CP, as I have done the same thing and it is impietas, requiring
a piaculum.
However, the praetores cannot pass a sentence (because they cannot say the
wordsdo, dico, addico).




Oh don't be daft. We are not in Rome. We are on the internet. And if a
crazed citizen was hacking up citizens in the Forum on this day in Old
Rome, the city cohors would still take him out. Law does not take a holiday.
It would fall to the College to decide if there was impiety and what to do
about it if there was.

- Q Fabius Maximus




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ave Fabi Maxime,

> Oh don't be daft. We are not in Rome. We are on the internet. And if a crazed citizen was hacking up citizens in the Forum on this day in Old Rome, the city cohors would still take him out.

I do not think so. The verb "futuere" learnt nobody to the crux nor the jail. The ancient did not have a Victorian Puritan view of this kind of things...

> Law does not take a holiday.

What law forbid the Latin verb futuere?

> It would fall to the College to decide if there was impiety and what to do about it if there was.

It is an impietas to give an edict for a praetor during days Nefasti. If you had a look on the calendar there are dies Nefasti till on July 10.

Vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
A. d. VI Nonas Quintiles P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.

Ave Fabi Maxime,

> What exactly does moderation mean in Nova Roma?

Odd question for a man who are running for the praetura...

Vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
A. d. VI Nonas Quintiles P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.

Salve,
And as I said the last time this issue came up it is unfair at least to someone
my age (19). I was too young at the founding to be a part of it otherwise I
undoubtedly would've helped. I mean I have had Rome in my heart and the Cultus
in my blood since I read books on the Gods. I was what.....9 when NR was founded
by the laws I wouldn't have been able to join, I am hereby making a request to
the leaders of NR and/or any patrician families to allow an exception. Please
note it is a request not a demand, but this really is important to me.
Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant
Nero



________________________________
From: Cn. Cornelius Lentulus <cn_corn_lent@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, July 1, 2010 7:13:32 AM
Subject: R: [Nova-Roma] Plebians and Patricians.


Lentulus Neroni sal.

That's a very good question and there is a very definitive answer to that.

The division between plebeians and patricians was not a division of merits,
wealth, etc.

The division between plebeians and patricians was based on the NAME. It's
hereditary, and means that patricians are the descendants of those first Romans
who were around the founding of Rome, and were its first important families. It
might happen, and happened many times in ancient Rome, that some plebeians were
million times richer than many patricians. For example, L. Sergius Catilina or
C. Iulius Caesar, both patrician, were relatively poor men, while Cn. Pompeius
Magnus or Crassus, or Lucullus, all 3 plebeians, were the riches statesmen in
Rome.

In Nova Roma we follow and resurrect the traditions of our ancestors, the
ancient Romans. Our patricians are those families in Nova Roma, who were the
most important people around the founding of Nova Roma, and those gens-mates of
theirs, who joined in the first few (5-6) years, which still can be considered
the legendary times of our foundation.

And why to follow that tradition?

It's an essential component of a Roman community.

Those people who are at the beginning of the founding of a new sacred entity,
such as like our republic and religion, are themselves sacred people, by the
fact that they contacted first the gods in this new endeavor, they are the first
whom the gods recognized as their people. This is why in ancient Rome the
patricians could only be priest for a very long time, and the argument was that
the patricians carried the sacredness of Roman religious instututions in
themselves.


It was so basic and elementary evidence to them, that any time the Romans
founded a new colony, a new community, their first colonists were the same way
entitled patricians -- not of Rome, but of the new community. One could be, e.g.
a plebeian of Rome, and a patrician of Arpinum.


Even when the distinction between the two castes became extremely obsolete,
Romans never gave up that idea, until the Christian emperors, in the 4th century
invented a new system, in which the title patrician was granted to those clients
of the emperor who served him most faithfull, and filled the consulship, too.
This new patrician title was a royal distinction, and was not hereditary. At
that time, only a dozen of people could bear that title in the same time.

Cura, ut valeas!

Cn. Lentulus

--- Gio 1/7/10, Nero <rikudemyx@...> ha scritto:

Da: Nero <rikudemyx@...>
Oggetto: [Nova-Roma] Plebians and Patricians.
A: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Data: Giovedì 1 luglio 2010, 14:36



Salvete,

I feel like a broken record player saying the same thing over and over, but I
don't think I have yet to ask: Why do we separate the Plebs from the Pats by
when we joined? Should there not be a different system. Granted it is similar to
the way our ancestors decided but as we prove time and time again we can change
from their ways.

This has been bothering me for a good week or two.

Di Vos Imcolumes Custodiant

Nero

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

C. Petronius M. Hortensiae s.p.d.,

> He cannot call a comitia.So now he doesn't want anyone to call a comitia. Haec sunt fututi facti Albuciani;-)
> now are my participles correct; I love Latin!

You love Latin, it is a good thing. But the sentence you wrote has no meanings in Latin. Nobody can futui "be f...ed something" "sunt fututi haec", even the "facti Alibuciani" id est the men "became Albucian"...

Your sentence is not understandable.

By the way "fututi sunt" is not an insult, but mean those men exhausted by stuprum... I think that English language use sexual words as insults but the Romans did not. Anyway the verb futuere was vulgar, if not insulting.

Sex is taboo in Victorian puritan world, not at all among ancient Romans. Futuere was the vulgar term for coire.

Cura ut valeas.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
A. d. VI Nonas Quintiles P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.

Aeternia Neroni sal,

This makes you want to go awwww just a little. I remember being 19
*shivers* it was only a decade ago, part of me wants to tell you the law is
the law and we must all adhere to what the laws state, and the other part of
me remembers what its like being 19 and wanting to belong.

So to make this easier for all those potential future Gens mates..

Why do you want to be a Patrician? And yes you have given us a story
but not the full sales pitch (take no offense to this I work in sales
enviroments) What is the real reason for this heartfelt request?

In the meantime, I wish you good luck may your inbox be full from Patrician
Families who want you as their new "son"...

Vale,
Aeternia

On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 9:26 PM, Riku Demyx <rikudemyx@...> wrote:

>
>
> Salve,
> And as I said the last time this issue came up it is unfair at least to
> someone
> my age (19). I was too young at the founding to be a part of it otherwise I
>
> undoubtedly would've helped. I mean I have had Rome in my heart and the
> Cultus
> in my blood since I read books on the Gods. I was what.....9 when NR was
> founded
> by the laws I wouldn't have been able to join, I am hereby making a request
> to
> the leaders of NR and/or any patrician families to allow an exception.
> Please
> note it is a request not a demand, but this really is important to me.
> Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant
> Nero
>
> ________________________________
> From: Cn. Cornelius Lentulus <cn_corn_lent@...<cn_corn_lent%40yahoo.it>
> >
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thu, July 1, 2010 7:13:32 AM
> Subject: R: [Nova-Roma] Plebians and Patricians.
>
>
> Lentulus Neroni sal.
>
> That's a very good question and there is a very definitive answer to that.
>
> The division between plebeians and patricians was not a division of merits,
>
> wealth, etc.
>
> The division between plebeians and patricians was based on the NAME. It's
> hereditary, and means that patricians are the descendants of those first
> Romans
> who were around the founding of Rome, and were its first important
> families. It
> might happen, and happened many times in ancient Rome, that some plebeians
> were
> million times richer than many patricians. For example, L. Sergius Catilina
> or
> C. Iulius Caesar, both patrician, were relatively poor men, while Cn.
> Pompeius
> Magnus or Crassus, or Lucullus, all 3 plebeians, were the riches statesmen
> in
> Rome.
>
> In Nova Roma we follow and resurrect the traditions of our ancestors, the
> ancient Romans. Our patricians are those families in Nova Roma, who were
> the
> most important people around the founding of Nova Roma, and those
> gens-mates of
> theirs, who joined in the first few (5-6) years, which still can be
> considered
> the legendary times of our foundation.
>
> And why to follow that tradition?
>
> It's an essential component of a Roman community.
>
> Those people who are at the beginning of the founding of a new sacred
> entity,
> such as like our republic and religion, are themselves sacred people, by
> the
> fact that they contacted first the gods in this new endeavor, they are the
> first
> whom the gods recognized as their people. This is why in ancient Rome the
> patricians could only be priest for a very long time, and the argument was
> that
> the patricians carried the sacredness of Roman religious instututions in
> themselves.
>
> It was so basic and elementary evidence to them, that any time the Romans
> founded a new colony, a new community, their first colonists were the same
> way
> entitled patricians -- not of Rome, but of the new community. One could be,
> e.g.
> a plebeian of Rome, and a patrician of Arpinum.
>
> Even when the distinction between the two castes became extremely obsolete,
>
> Romans never gave up that idea, until the Christian emperors, in the 4th
> century
> invented a new system, in which the title patrician was granted to those
> clients
> of the emperor who served him most faithfull, and filled the consulship,
> too.
> This new patrician title was a royal distinction, and was not hereditary.
> At
> that time, only a dozen of people could bear that title in the same time.
>
> Cura, ut valeas!
>
> Cn. Lentulus
>
> --- Gio 1/7/10, Nero <rikudemyx@... <rikudemyx%40yahoo.com>> ha
> scritto:
>
> Da: Nero <rikudemyx@... <rikudemyx%40yahoo.com>>
> Oggetto: [Nova-Roma] Plebians and Patricians.
> A: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>
> Data: Gioved� 1 luglio 2010, 14:36
>
> Salvete,
>
> I feel like a broken record player saying the same thing over and over, but
> I
> don't think I have yet to ask: Why do we separate the Plebs from the Pats
> by
> when we joined? Should there not be a different system. Granted it is
> similar to
> the way our ancestors decided but as we prove time and time again we can
> change
> from their ways.
>
> This has been bothering me for a good week or two.
>
> Di Vos Imcolumes Custodiant
>
> Nero
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica C. Cassio Vespae quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque
> bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
>
>
> Salve!
>
> My name is Arnold C., my chosen name on Novaroma is Gaius Cassius Vespa and I
> passed the citizenship test in the later half of May.
>
> ATS: Congratulations, and welcome to Nova Roma, and to Mediatlantica
> Provincia!
>
>
> I'm sadly only now making the rounds to introduce myself on the various
> mailing lists. I reside in what I recently learned is Civitas Novum Eboracum,
> or New York City.
>
> ATS: Poor dear! The other end of the state (where I live) is much
> nicer. More strictly, Civitas Novi Eboraci {OF New York City...}, though urbs
> Novi Eboraci makes more sense.
>
>
> Additionally, I am currently a student attending a state university member
> college.
>
> ATS: Which one? Stony Brook? Or is that too far away?
>
>
> I am also taking drawing courses at an Atelier while exploring employment
> opportunities in writing and editing.
>
> I became aware of Novaroma, I believe, sometime in 2008 and joined out of
> curiosity a year later completing my citizenship last month. I was fortunate
> to briefly make the acquaintance of Flavius Vedius Germanicus on the
> Greece/Rome group that was on meetup.com, but overall I'm still new to all of
> this.
>
> ATS: Not all of us are on these social interaction sites, but several of
> us are in NYS, and in the DC area as well.
>
>
>
> I've always been curious about ancient cultures and history. One of my goals
> is to hopefully join a group, or class, and learn the Latin language.
>
> ATS: You are in luck there. We teach Latin by two different methods, one
> traditional and based on the popular Wheelock text, and the other by a unique
> assimilation method. The introductory course in traditional Wheelock Latin is
> now open for registration (the others are still technically in progress), but
> students must have the text in hand before being allowed to enter the course.
> We will also teach a background course in Latin (history of Latin, etc.), but
> have not set the start date yet. All courses are free, but all entail work,
> including written homework in all except the background course. If you wish
> to take the traditional Latin course, arm yourself with a copy of Wheelock¹s
> Latin by Frederic Wheelock, sixth edition, revised by Richard LaFleur, and let
> me know when it is in your hands. The text for the assimilation courses is
> more difficult to obtain, and far more expensive, but can be obtained over the
> net by those who have a fast connection. If you are interested, it is Le
> Latin Sans Peine, by Clement Desessard. There is also an Italian version.
> Both have been translated into English and Spanish on the course sites, for
> the Assimil courses are taught in both English and Spanish, whereas Wheelock
> is taught only in English, though I can manage some French. Both will produce
> some level of fluency in reading Latin, and even in writing Latin, if one is
> diligent. Assimil should also produce written and oral fluency in Latin...and
> yes, there are many groups where Latin is spoken on a weekly or monthly basis,
> as well as seminars intended to teach spoken Latin.
>
>
> I'm definitely open to exploring what remains of the ancient world, ruins,
> history, and knowledge alike.
>
> ATS: Good. Europe seems to have quite a few candidate sites... ;-)
>
> Ultimately, I'm looking to have new fulfilling experiences.
>
> Valete,
> C. Cassius Vespa
>
> Vale, et valete.
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

M. Hortensia P. Memmio;
I don't object to your acting as praetor nor to the sentence. That is the praetor's imperium.

However today is dies Nefastus; you've committed impietas. I refer you to the
" However, the praetores cannot pass a sentence (because they cannot say the words do, dico, addico)."
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Responsum_Pontificum_de_Diebus_(Nova_Roma)#Dies_NEFASTI_.28N.29
You should report this to the Collegium Pontificum immediately.
M. Hortensia Maior

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Publius Memmius Albucius <albucius_aoe@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hortensiae s.d.
>
> You have already issued an offensive, insulting and vulgar message in a senatorial list. I have not wished, as you well know, underlining the infractions that you have committed there, preferring bidding on your cleverness, your dignitas, your seniority and the fact that, as you were candidate for praetor, you would be eager to behave as you would demand our cives and fora members to do.
>
> But today, I receive communication of the sentence below (Message #77198 of 77216 Thu Jul 1, 2010 6:10 am) :
>
> "Haec sunt fututi facti Albuciani ;-)"
>
> Here too, I will not charge you for the insult addressed to the consul but address the insult to the citizen.
>
> I have just asked the praetorian team to place you under moderation for 72 hours, from this Kal. Quint. 21:00 Rome time to next a.d. IV Nonas Quint., same hour.
>
> The fact that the latin verb "futuere" be in a Latin dictionary, as many English insults are in most current dictionaries, does not delete the insulting character of this sentence, and the fact that such kind of insult is not authorized by our edictum de sermone as, besides, the rule you preferred to refer to when praetor, Yahoo!'s TOS. Please try to learn the differences between humor and insult if you cannot well see them.
>
> In addition, your behavior is not admissible coming from a candidate to the praetura, and you seem not realizing that you do exactly the same than what you would be in charge, if elected, to sanction as praetrix.
>
>
> Whatever you may think, politically, of this or that civis, officer or magistrate, your arguments are welcome from the moment they remain in the frame of our legal rules.
>
>
>
> You will remark, last, that I am keeping silence on the fact that you have published your insulting letter, issued in the senatorial list, in your message in the Main List, though every discussion in such lists are supposed to be displayed just to the concerned people.
>
> This letter of notification will be published in our Forum romanum. Every legal appeal, allowed by Nova Roma laws, is available for you, naturally.
>
> Vale,
>
>
> Albucius cos.
> p. praet.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Allumez et éteignez votre PC en un instant avec Windows 7 !
> http://clk.atdmt.com/FRM/go/238030931/direct/01/
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

M.Hortensia C. Petronio spd;
maximas gratias, the only way to learn is to write and make mistakes, I appreciate being corrections. I was trying to say: "these are the f**cked up Albucian deeds"

So in latin I couldn't say as in French (f**tre) c'est f**tu?

I agree, we had a very interesting civis from Lusitania here who recommended great books on Roman sexuality and I learned a lot. The Romans didn't have taboos about sexuality.. We are here to imbibe Roman culture and live it; surely at odds with British Victorian prudery, American puritanism or French bourgeois values.
vale
Maior

>
> You love Latin, it is a good thing. But the sentence you wrote has no meanings in Latin. Nobody can futui "be f...ed something" "sunt fututi haec", even the "facti Alibuciani" id est the men "became Albucian"...
>
> Your sentence is not understandable.
>
> By the way "fututi sunt" is not an insult, but mean those men exhausted by stuprum... I think that English language use sexual words as insults but the Romans did not. Anyway the verb futuere was vulgar, if not insulting.
>
> Sex is taboo in Victorian puritan world, not at all among ancient Romans. Futuere was the vulgar term for coire.
>
> Cura ut valeas.
>
> C. Petronius Dexter
> Arcoiali scribebat
> A. d. VI Nonas Quintiles P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
>

>
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica C. Mariae Caecae C. Cassio Vespae quiritibus, sociis,
> peregrinisque bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
>
>
> C. Maria Caeca C. Cassio Vespae S. P. D.
>
> Congratulations!!!!! We are accruing quite a crop of fledgling citizens, and
> this is absolutely delightful! As it happens ...Gramatica I, the beginning
> Latin course, will be open for application quite soon.
>
> ATS: This is one of TWO introductory Latin courses, and is open for
> registration now. Sermo Latinus I is ready except for site preparation, which
> is very extensive, especially in the Sermo courses.
>
>
> It uses a traditional approach, (and I can tell you, from first hand
> experience that, although it isn't easy by any stretch, the instruction is
> excellent, and it is very much worth the effort.
>
> ATS: Thank you!
>
>
> Watch this list and the Main list for the announcement from the course
> instructor, A. Tullia Scholastica ...and we will help you achieve (well, *she*
> will help you) one of you goals!
>
> ATS: I already did announce that Grammatica Latina I was ready for
> boarding, but Yahoo is ailing enough that some may not have received it.
>
> Meanwhile, welcome, Cives!
>
> ATS: Indeed! Welcome to the Res Publica!
>
> Vale bene,
> C. Maria Caeca, who still remembers how excited she was when she first became
> a citizen ...and, even after ...what? 4 years? still is!
>
>
> Valete!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve,
One reason is that my names came from Roman's who were both Patrician and
respected in their time: Gaius for Caesar Do I really need to explain him?
Junius for Brutus the man who killed a man so close to him to preserve the
republic, and Nero because no matter how much history tries to deny it he did do
good to the Empire. This is by no means to say that the were no Plebians who
changed the empire/republic but the three names I chose were not among those
great persona's.
The second reason as I have stated is that in mine and undoubtedly a few other
cases(though I am the first I know of to challenge it) the law
is extremely unfair in it's position, if I would've tried to join Nova Roma when
it was founded then I would've been told no. I can think of no other reasons but
I cannot see why I would need a reason, it is a special case that I'm asking to
be examined, age should be taken into account as well as the names(since
bloodlines are unpractical.)
Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant,
Nero.



________________________________
From: Belle Morte <syrenslullaby@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, July 2, 2010 12:05:00 AM
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] Plebians and Patricians.

Aeternia Neroni sal,

This makes you want to go awwww just a little. I remember being 19
*shivers* it was only a decade ago, part of me wants to tell you the law is
the law and we must all adhere to what the laws state, and the other part of
me remembers what its like being 19 and wanting to belong.

So to make this easier for all those potential future Gens mates..

Why do you want to be a Patrician? And yes you have given us a story
but not the full sales pitch (take no offense to this I work in sales
enviroments) What is the real reason for this heartfelt request?

In the meantime, I wish you good luck may your inbox be full from Patrician
Families who want you as their new "son"...

Vale,
Aeternia

On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 9:26 PM, Riku Demyx <rikudemyx@...> wrote:

>
>
> Salve,
> And as I said the last time this issue came up it is unfair at least to
> someone
> my age (19). I was too young at the founding to be a part of it otherwise I
>
> undoubtedly would've helped. I mean I have had Rome in my heart and the
> Cultus
> in my blood since I read books on the Gods. I was what.....9 when NR was
> founded
> by the laws I wouldn't have been able to join, I am hereby making a request
> to
> the leaders of NR and/or any patrician families to allow an exception.
> Please
> note it is a request not a demand, but this really is important to me.
> Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant
> Nero
>
> ________________________________
> From: Cn. Cornelius Lentulus <cn_corn_lent@...<cn_corn_lent%40yahoo.it>
> >
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thu, July 1, 2010 7:13:32 AM
> Subject: R: [Nova-Roma] Plebians and Patricians.
>
>
> Lentulus Neroni sal.
>
> That's a very good question and there is a very definitive answer to that.
>
> The division between plebeians and patricians was not a division of merits,
>
> wealth, etc.
>
> The division between plebeians and patricians was based on the NAME. It's
> hereditary, and means that patricians are the descendants of those first
> Romans
> who were around the founding of Rome, and were its first important
> families. It
> might happen, and happened many times in ancient Rome, that some plebeians
> were
> million times richer than many patricians. For example, L. Sergius Catilina
> or
> C. Iulius Caesar, both patrician, were relatively poor men, while Cn.
> Pompeius
> Magnus or Crassus, or Lucullus, all 3 plebeians, were the riches statesmen
> in
> Rome.
>
> In Nova Roma we follow and resurrect the traditions of our ancestors, the
> ancient Romans. Our patricians are those families in Nova Roma, who were
> the
> most important people around the founding of Nova Roma, and those
> gens-mates of
> theirs, who joined in the first few (5-6) years, which still can be
> considered
> the legendary times of our foundation.
>
> And why to follow that tradition?
>
> It's an essential component of a Roman community.
>
> Those people who are at the beginning of the founding of a new sacred
> entity,
> such as like our republic and religion, are themselves sacred people, by
> the
> fact that they contacted first the gods in this new endeavor, they are the
> first
> whom the gods recognized as their people. This is why in ancient Rome the
> patricians could only be priest for a very long time, and the argument was
> that
> the patricians carried the sacredness of Roman religious instututions in
> themselves.
>
> It was so basic and elementary evidence to them, that any time the Romans
> founded a new colony, a new community, their first colonists were the same
> way
> entitled patricians -- not of Rome, but of the new community. One could be,
> e.g.
> a plebeian of Rome, and a patrician of Arpinum.
>
> Even when the distinction between the two castes became extremely obsolete,
>
> Romans never gave up that idea, until the Christian emperors, in the 4th
> century
> invented a new system, in which the title patrician was granted to those
> clients
> of the emperor who served him most faithfull, and filled the consulship,
> too.
> This new patrician title was a royal distinction, and was not hereditary.
> At
> that time, only a dozen of people could bear that title in the same time.
>
> Cura, ut valeas!
>
> Cn. Lentulus
>
> --- Gio 1/7/10, Nero <rikudemyx@... <rikudemyx%40yahoo.com>> ha
> scritto:
>
> Da: Nero <rikudemyx@... <rikudemyx%40yahoo.com>>
> Oggetto: [Nova-Roma] Plebians and Patricians.
> A: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>
> Data: Giovedì 1 luglio 2010, 14:36
>
> Salvete,
>
> I feel like a broken record player saying the same thing over and over, but
> I
> don't think I have yet to ask: Why do we separate the Plebs from the Pats
> by
> when we joined? Should there not be a different system. Granted it is
> similar to
> the way our ancestors decided but as we prove time and time again we can
> change
> from their ways.
>
> This has been bothering me for a good week or two.
>
> Di Vos Imcolumes Custodiant
>
> Nero
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica C. Petronio Dextro quiritibus S.P.D.
>
>
> Ave Fabi Maxime,
>
>> > Oh don't be daft. We are not in Rome. We are on the internet. And if a
>> crazed citizen was hacking up citizens in the Forum on this day in Old Rome,
>> the city cohors would still take him out.
>
> I do not think so.
>
> ATS: Were they supposed to sit back and wait until the calendar allowed
> interfering with rioting and mayhem? Did Catiline arrange for his little
> adventures on a string of N days, or did Nero, so no one would lift a finger?
>
>
> The verb "f..." learnt nobody to the crux nor the jail.
>
> ATS: I think you mean led....Maybe not, but it is not appropriate
> here...and you should know better than to use it on an open list. Parents do
> not want their children exposed to that sort of thing, nor is it appropriate
> for Vestales, etc.
>
>
> The ancient did not have a Victorian Puritan view of this kind of things...
>
>
> ATS: Good sense and propriety are not necessarily Puritan, or Victorian.
> To prepon preexisted either of them...
>
>> > Law does not take a holiday.
>
> What law forbid the Latin verb f...?
>
> ATS: Shall we start with the Yahoo ToS? And maybe the moderation
> edictum? Civilized people do not use this sort of vocabulary in print, or in
> public. This is not the BA, where anything goes, or the magisterial lists,
> where everyone is an adult (legally, anyway; true biological adulthood does
> not arrive at age 18). We are not here to teach children (or anyone else)
> vile terms of that sort in any language whatsoever.
>
>> > It would fall to the College to decide if there was impiety and what to do
>> about it if there was.
>
> It is an impietas to give an edict for a praetor during days Nefasti. If you
> had a look on the calendar there are dies Nefasti till on July 10.
>
> ATS: I doubt that informing a citizen that he or she is to be moderated
> qualifies as an edictum. In any case, one must step in immediately to put an
> end to improper behavior, whatever its nature. Sentences in the tribunal can
> await C days, but the equivalent of riots cannot.
>
> Vale.
>
> C. Petronius Dexter
> Arcoiali scribebat
> a. d. VI Nonas Quintiles P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.

Vale, et valete.

>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cato C. Iunio Neroni sal.

Well, I understand your desire to be patrician (since I'm one). Problem is, if you are adopted by a patrician family your name will change to reflect that adoption.

Remember that your nomen "Iunius" was a plebeian one in ancient Rome, so you are actually carrying on that ancient family's heritage.

Vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Riku Demyx <rikudemyx@...> wrote:
>
> Salve,
> One reason is that my names came from Roman's who were both Patrician and
> respected in their time: Gaius for Caesar Do I really need to explain him?
> Junius for Brutus the man who killed a man so close to him to preserve the
> republic, and Nero because no matter how much history tries to deny it he did do
> good to the Empire. This is by no means to say that the were no Plebians who
> changed the empire/republic but the three names I chose were not among those
> great persona's.
> The second reason as I have stated is that in mine and undoubtedly a few other
> cases(though I am the first I know of to challenge it) the law
> is extremely unfair in it's position, if I would've tried to join Nova Roma when
> it was founded then I would've been told no. I can think of no other reasons but
> I cannot see why I would need a reason, it is a special case that I'm asking to
> be examined, age should be taken into account as well as the names(since
> bloodlines are unpractical.)
> Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant,
> Nero.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Belle Morte <syrenslullaby@...>
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Fri, July 2, 2010 12:05:00 AM
> Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] Plebians and Patricians.
>
> Aeternia Neroni sal,
>
> This makes you want to go awwww just a little. I remember being 19
> *shivers* it was only a decade ago, part of me wants to tell you the law is
> the law and we must all adhere to what the laws state, and the other part of
> me remembers what its like being 19 and wanting to belong.
>
> So to make this easier for all those potential future Gens mates..
>
> Why do you want to be a Patrician? And yes you have given us a story
> but not the full sales pitch (take no offense to this I work in sales
> enviroments) What is the real reason for this heartfelt request?
>
> In the meantime, I wish you good luck may your inbox be full from Patrician
> Families who want you as their new "son"...
>
> Vale,
> Aeternia
>
> On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 9:26 PM, Riku Demyx <rikudemyx@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Salve,
> > And as I said the last time this issue came up it is unfair at least to
> > someone
> > my age (19). I was too young at the founding to be a part of it otherwise I
> >
> > undoubtedly would've helped. I mean I have had Rome in my heart and the
> > Cultus
> > in my blood since I read books on the Gods. I was what.....9 when NR was
> > founded
> > by the laws I wouldn't have been able to join, I am hereby making a request
> > to
> > the leaders of NR and/or any patrician families to allow an exception.
> > Please
> > note it is a request not a demand, but this really is important to me.
> > Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant
> > Nero
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Cn. Cornelius Lentulus <cn_corn_lent@...<cn_corn_lent%40yahoo.it>
> > >
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Thu, July 1, 2010 7:13:32 AM
> > Subject: R: [Nova-Roma] Plebians and Patricians.
> >
> >
> > Lentulus Neroni sal.
> >
> > That's a very good question and there is a very definitive answer to that.
> >
> > The division between plebeians and patricians was not a division of merits,
> >
> > wealth, etc.
> >
> > The division between plebeians and patricians was based on the NAME. It's
> > hereditary, and means that patricians are the descendants of those first
> > Romans
> > who were around the founding of Rome, and were its first important
> > families. It
> > might happen, and happened many times in ancient Rome, that some plebeians
> > were
> > million times richer than many patricians. For example, L. Sergius Catilina
> > or
> > C. Iulius Caesar, both patrician, were relatively poor men, while Cn.
> > Pompeius
> > Magnus or Crassus, or Lucullus, all 3 plebeians, were the riches statesmen
> > in
> > Rome.
> >
> > In Nova Roma we follow and resurrect the traditions of our ancestors, the
> > ancient Romans. Our patricians are those families in Nova Roma, who were
> > the
> > most important people around the founding of Nova Roma, and those
> > gens-mates of
> > theirs, who joined in the first few (5-6) years, which still can be
> > considered
> > the legendary times of our foundation.
> >
> > And why to follow that tradition?
> >
> > It's an essential component of a Roman community.
> >
> > Those people who are at the beginning of the founding of a new sacred
> > entity,
> > such as like our republic and religion, are themselves sacred people, by
> > the
> > fact that they contacted first the gods in this new endeavor, they are the
> > first
> > whom the gods recognized as their people. This is why in ancient Rome the
> > patricians could only be priest for a very long time, and the argument was
> > that
> > the patricians carried the sacredness of Roman religious instututions in
> > themselves.
> >
> > It was so basic and elementary evidence to them, that any time the Romans
> > founded a new colony, a new community, their first colonists were the same
> > way
> > entitled patricians -- not of Rome, but of the new community. One could be,
> > e.g.
> > a plebeian of Rome, and a patrician of Arpinum.
> >
> > Even when the distinction between the two castes became extremely obsolete,
> >
> > Romans never gave up that idea, until the Christian emperors, in the 4th
> > century
> > invented a new system, in which the title patrician was granted to those
> > clients
> > of the emperor who served him most faithfull, and filled the consulship,
> > too.
> > This new patrician title was a royal distinction, and was not hereditary.
> > At
> > that time, only a dozen of people could bear that title in the same time.
> >
> > Cura, ut valeas!
> >
> > Cn. Lentulus
> >
> > --- Gio 1/7/10, Nero <rikudemyx@... <rikudemyx%40yahoo.com>> ha
> > scritto:
> >
> > Da: Nero <rikudemyx@... <rikudemyx%40yahoo.com>>
> > Oggetto: [Nova-Roma] Plebians and Patricians.
> > A: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Data: Giovedì 1 luglio 2010, 14:36
> >
> > Salvete,
> >
> > I feel like a broken record player saying the same thing over and over, but
> > I
> > don't think I have yet to ask: Why do we separate the Plebs from the Pats
> > by
> > when we joined? Should there not be a different system. Granted it is
> > similar to
> > the way our ancestors decided but as we prove time and time again we can
> > change
> > from their ways.
> >
> > This has been bothering me for a good week or two.
> >
> > Di Vos Imcolumes Custodiant
> >
> > Nero
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Cato omnibus in foro SPD

Hodiernus dies est ante diem VI Nonas Quinitilis; haec dies nefastus aterque est.

"Why do they reckon the day that follows the Kalends, the Nones, or the Ides as unsuitable for leaving home or for travel?

Is it, as most authorities think and as Livy records, that on the day after the Ides of Quintilis, which they now call July, the military tribunes led out the army, and were vanquished in battle by the Gauls at the river Allia and lost the City? But when the day after the Ides had come to be regarded as ill-omened, did superstition, as is its wont, extend the custom further, and involve in the same circumspection the day after the Nones and the day after the Kalends?

Or does this contain many irrational assumptions? For it was on a different day that they were defeated in battle, a day which they call Alliensis from the river, and make a dread day of expiation; and although they have many ill-omened days, they do not observe them under the same names in each month, but each in the month in which it occurs; and it is thus quite incredible that the superstition should have attached itself simply to all the days that follow immediately after the Nones or the Kalends.

Consider the following analogy: just as they have dedicated the first month to the gods of Olympus, and the second, in which they perform certain rites of purification and sacrifice to the departed, to the gods of the lower world, so also in regard to the days of the month they have established three as festive and holy days, as I have stated, which are, as it were, fundamental and sovereign days; but the days which follow immediately they have dedicated to the spirits and the dead, and have come to regard them as ill-omened and unsuitable for business. In fact, the Greeks worship the gods on the day of the new moon; the next day they have duly assigned to the heroes and spirits, and the second bowl of wine is mixed in honor of the heroes and heroines. And speaking generally, time is a sort of number; and the beginning of number is divine, for it is the monad. But after it is the dyad, antagonistic to the beginning number, and the first of the even numbers. The even numbers are imperfect, incomplete, and indeterminate, just as the odd numbers are determinate, completing, and perfect. Wherefore, in like manner, the Nones succeed the Kalends at an interval of five days and the Ides succeed the Nones at an interval of nine days. For the odd numbers define the beginnings but even numbers, since they occur after the beginnings, have no position nor power; therefore on these days they do not begin any business or travel.

Or has also the saying of Themistocles some foundation in reason? For once upon a time, said he, the Day-After had an altercation with the Feast-Day on the ground that the Feast-Day had much labor and toil, whereas she herself provided the opportunity of enjoying in leisure and quiet all the things prepared for the festival. To this the Feast-Day replied 'You are quite right; but if I had not been, you would not be!' This story Themistocles related to the Athenian generals who succeeded him, to show that they would have been nowhere, if he himself had not saved the city.

Since, therefore, all travel and all business of importance needs provision and preparation, and since in ancient days the Romans, at the time of festivals, made no provision or plan for anything, save only that they were engaged in the service of their gods and busied themselves with this only, just as even to this day the priests cause such a proclamation to be made in advance as they proceed on their way to sacrifice; so it was only natural that they did not set out on a journey immediately after their festivals, nor did they transact any business, for they were unprepared; but that day they always spent at home making their plans and preparations.

Or is it even as men now, who have offered their prayers and oblations, are wont to tarry and sit a while in the temples, and so they would not let busy days succeed holy days immediately, but made some pause and breathing-space between, since business brings with it much that is distasteful and undesired?" - Plutarch, "Roman Questions" 25

Valete,

Cato

Salve,
If it was purely plebian name then how did Brutus and Servillia have it and
still be Patrician?
Nero



________________________________
From: Cato <catoinnyc@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, July 2, 2010 2:09:52 AM
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] Plebians and Patricians.


Cato C. Iunio Neroni sal.

Well, I understand your desire to be patrician (since I'm one). Problem is, if
you are adopted by a patrician family your name will change to reflect that
adoption.

Remember that your nomen "Iunius" was a plebeian one in ancient Rome, so you are
actually carrying on that ancient family's heritage.

Vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Riku Demyx <rikudemyx@...> wrote:
>
> Salve,
> One reason is that my names came from Roman's who were both Patrician and
> respected in their time: Gaius for Caesar Do I really need to explain him?
> Junius for Brutus the man who killed a man so close to him to preserve the
> republic, and Nero because no matter how much history tries to deny it he did
>do
>
> good to the Empire. This is by no means to say that the were no Plebians who
> changed the empire/republic but the three names I chose were not among those
> great persona's.
> The second reason as I have stated is that in mine and undoubtedly a few other

> cases(though I am the first I know of to challenge it) the law
> is extremely unfair in it's position, if I would've tried to join Nova Roma
>when
>
> it was founded then I would've been told no. I can think of no other reasons
>but
>
> I cannot see why I would need a reason, it is a special case that I'm asking to
>
> be examined, age should be taken into account as well as the names(since
> bloodlines are unpractical.)
> Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant,
> Nero.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Belle Morte <syrenslullaby@...>
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Fri, July 2, 2010 12:05:00 AM
> Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] Plebians and Patricians.
>
> Aeternia Neroni sal,
>
> This makes you want to go awwww just a little. I remember being 19
> *shivers* it was only a decade ago, part of me wants to tell you the law is
> the law and we must all adhere to what the laws state, and the other part of
> me remembers what its like being 19 and wanting to belong.
>
> So to make this easier for all those potential future Gens mates..
>
> Why do you want to be a Patrician? And yes you have given us a story
> but not the full sales pitch (take no offense to this I work in sales
> enviroments) What is the real reason for this heartfelt request?
>
> In the meantime, I wish you good luck may your inbox be full from Patrician
> Families who want you as their new "son"...
>
> Vale,
> Aeternia
>
> On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 9:26 PM, Riku Demyx <rikudemyx@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Salve,
> > And as I said the last time this issue came up it is unfair at least to
> > someone
> > my age (19). I was too young at the founding to be a part of it otherwise I
> >
> > undoubtedly would've helped. I mean I have had Rome in my heart and the
> > Cultus
> > in my blood since I read books on the Gods. I was what.....9 when NR was
> > founded
> > by the laws I wouldn't have been able to join, I am hereby making a request
> > to
> > the leaders of NR and/or any patrician families to allow an exception.
> > Please
> > note it is a request not a demand, but this really is important to me.
> > Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant
> > Nero
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Cn. Cornelius Lentulus <cn_corn_lent@...<cn_corn_lent%40yahoo.it>
> > >
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Thu, July 1, 2010 7:13:32 AM
> > Subject: R: [Nova-Roma] Plebians and Patricians.
> >
> >
> > Lentulus Neroni sal.
> >
> > That's a very good question and there is a very definitive answer to that.
> >
> > The division between plebeians and patricians was not a division of merits,
> >
> > wealth, etc.
> >
> > The division between plebeians and patricians was based on the NAME. It's
> > hereditary, and means that patricians are the descendants of those first
> > Romans
> > who were around the founding of Rome, and were its first important
> > families. It
> > might happen, and happened many times in ancient Rome, that some plebeians
> > were
> > million times richer than many patricians. For example, L. Sergius Catilina
> > or
> > C. Iulius Caesar, both patrician, were relatively poor men, while Cn.
> > Pompeius
> > Magnus or Crassus, or Lucullus, all 3 plebeians, were the riches statesmen
> > in
> > Rome.
> >
> > In Nova Roma we follow and resurrect the traditions of our ancestors, the
> > ancient Romans. Our patricians are those families in Nova Roma, who were
> > the
> > most important people around the founding of Nova Roma, and those
> > gens-mates of
> > theirs, who joined in the first few (5-6) years, which still can be
> > considered
> > the legendary times of our foundation.
> >
> > And why to follow that tradition?
> >
> > It's an essential component of a Roman community.
> >
> > Those people who are at the beginning of the founding of a new sacred
> > entity,
> > such as like our republic and religion, are themselves sacred people, by
> > the
> > fact that they contacted first the gods in this new endeavor, they are the
> > first
> > whom the gods recognized as their people. This is why in ancient Rome the
> > patricians could only be priest for a very long time, and the argument was
> > that
> > the patricians carried the sacredness of Roman religious instututions in
> > themselves.
> >
> > It was so basic and elementary evidence to them, that any time the Romans
> > founded a new colony, a new community, their first colonists were the same
> > way
> > entitled patricians -- not of Rome, but of the new community. One could be,
> > e.g.
> > a plebeian of Rome, and a patrician of Arpinum.
> >
> > Even when the distinction between the two castes became extremely obsolete,
> >
> > Romans never gave up that idea, until the Christian emperors, in the 4th
> > century
> > invented a new system, in which the title patrician was granted to those
> > clients
> > of the emperor who served him most faithfull, and filled the consulship,
> > too.
> > This new patrician title was a royal distinction, and was not hereditary.
> > At
> > that time, only a dozen of people could bear that title in the same time.
> >
> > Cura, ut valeas!
> >
> > Cn. Lentulus
> >
> > --- Gio 1/7/10, Nero <rikudemyx@... <rikudemyx%40yahoo.com>> ha
> > scritto:
> >
> > Da: Nero <rikudemyx@... <rikudemyx%40yahoo.com>>
> > Oggetto: [Nova-Roma] Plebians and Patricians.
> > A: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Data: Giovedì 1 luglio 2010, 14:36
> >
> > Salvete,
> >
> > I feel like a broken record player saying the same thing over and over, but
> > I
> > don't think I have yet to ask: Why do we separate the Plebs from the Pats
> > by
> > when we joined? Should there not be a different system. Granted it is
> > similar to
> > the way our ancestors decided but as we prove time and time again we can
> > change
> > from their ways.
> >
> > This has been bothering me for a good week or two.
> >
> > Di Vos Imcolumes Custodiant
> >
> > Nero
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

A. Tullia Scholastica C. Valeria Pulchrae quiritibus S.P.D.

> Gaia Valeria Pulchra Valeriano S.P.D.
>
> I must say I disagree with you on the use of this verb. You stated that
> it's not the use of the word you disagree with, but the contradiction you
> see in it's use. I find it offensive and inappropriate for public use.

And so do a lot of sensible people. However, I think you may have
misunderstood the man in your life on this one; he seems to have clarified
matters later on.

>I too
> love Catullus, but I would not read some of his work aloud in public.

That, and some other things. One must consider one's audience, and the
audience here is some 1450 people of all ages and backgrounds, among whom
several are too young to know about such matters, let alone indulge in them.
Their parents would almost certainly prefer that they not do so.

>You
> and I seldom disagree, but here I must speak up. That type of language has
> no place on the Main List. It's vulgar, it's unbecoming of a lady or
> gentleman, and it's decidedly lacking in dignitas.

Exactly. We should be dignified here, and leave the slang on the BA.
It does not belong on the magisterial lists or the Senate list, though all
there are adult, and it most certainly does not belong on the ML, where
children and people from backgrounds where such things are not discussed in
public are present. Be respectful of others (not that you aren't, Tulli,
but some here clearly are not).

>Vulgarity is something to
> be used with great care, in the most limited of private company.

Yes.

> I obviously think of you as a man of great character. I would not have
> entered a sacred bond with someone who did not posses the kind of moral
> fiber that I require in a partner. I remember when you defended Maior from
> so rather unsavory language, and I applaud your effort now as I did then. I
> remember the private discussions we had during that time in which we
> understood where our friends were coming from, but we felt that their choice
> of language was unfortunate. If we felt some of those insults were
> inappropriate for the Back Alley, then isn't this word, which is arguably
> more foul then the words used on the BA, even more unacceptable to you?
> Perhaps I have misunderstood your post, if so I hope you will correct me.
> I'm simply a bit confused. If you found it unacceptable for insults like
> "Nazi" to be used on the much more casual and private Back Alley, I should
> think the use of one of the most objectionable curse words on the Main List
> would horrify you.

Anybody with good sense would protest the use of this word in any
language on such a list as this one. Some lack the necessary sense of
propriety to see that certain things are wrong in certain contexts. This
sort of vulgar language does not belong here. Take it to the BA. I suspect
that Tullius knows this, but others here do not.

>
>
> "Have you ever had one of those days when something just seems to be trying
> to tell you somebody?"
>
>
> John Constantine, in SANDMAN #3: "Dream a Little Dream of Me"
>

Vale, et valete.

>
>
> On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 4:31 PM, Colin Brodd <magisterbrodd@...> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Gaius Tullius Valerianus M. Hortensiae Maiori S.P.D.
>>
>> Salve! I did not report you to anybody - in fact, the point of my post was
>> that, since we currently have no praetrices due to your own resignation,
>> there would be nobody to whom I COULD report you if I wanted to . . . but
>> that since you're running for the office again, I would think you would
>> want
>> to have a little more care. Perhaps I should have sent you this advice
>> privately, off-list, but I just didn't think of that, since your
>> unfortunate
>> post was so public.
>>
>> Anyway, I say again, I did not report you - I didn't have to - you
>> committed
>> this act publicly;everyone saw it, including all those minors whom you want
>> to protect with "strong moderation." But you're right in that I will have
>> no
>> part in bullying or defamation of anyone. Do you remember when you were a
>> Back Alley member and I defended you from some of the senseless abuse
>> hurled
>> your way? I stand by that; you didn't deserve that treatment at that time.
>> And I'm not opposed to using the verb you did on this list, in theory
>> (incidentally, Catullus is my favorite poet of all time!) - I'm opposed to
>> the hypocrisy of demanding strong moderation, then flouting it.
>>
>> I'm sorry, Maior, but if there were any chance you were going to get my
>> vote, you just lost it. I have not made any endorsements for this election
>> previously, but I can say for certain that you apparent disregard for your
>> own platform means I cannot vote for you, and I doubt any other citizen who
>> cares about Nova Roma can do so in good conscience either. And the saddest
>> part is, Maior, I don't doubt your commitment to living Romanitas, and to
>> the use of Latin - but you have proven BEYOND doubt your lack of commitment
>> to integrity, especially if you think you can threaten and bully me for
>> some
>> imagined wrong I've done you. I certainly won't be standing up to defend
>> you
>> any more.
>>
>> Vale.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> since the verb f**tere is in the Oxford Latin Dictionary, and examples of
>>> its use are given with Catullus, Horace and Martial. I would say I'm in
>> good
>>> classical company.
>>>
>>> What is interesting that Valerianus reported me to the praetorial scribae
>>> for a latin verb as opposed to the bullying and defamation of me by his
>>> friends Sulla and Cato. I don't think Valerianus you would be too happy
>> if I
>>> called the school you teach at; would you?
>>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>

Salvete,

At the root of it the Catullus argument committed the fallacy of composition (a truth about the whole cannot be necessarily drawn from a conclusion about its part). The F-word has been used by many famous writers in English, such as James Joyce and D. H. Lawrence, but this doesn't mean that you can then use the same language in any context.

Valete,

Gualterus Graecus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Tullia Scholastica" <fororom@...> wrote:
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica C. Valeria Pulchrae quiritibus S.P.D.
>
> > Gaia Valeria Pulchra Valeriano S.P.D.
> >
> > I must say I disagree with you on the use of this verb. You stated that
> > it's not the use of the word you disagree with, but the contradiction you
> > see in it's use. I find it offensive and inappropriate for public use.
>
> And so do a lot of sensible people. However, I think you may have
> misunderstood the man in your life on this one; he seems to have clarified
> matters later on.
>
>
> >I too
> > love Catullus, but I would not read some of his work aloud in public.
>
> That, and some other things. One must consider one's audience, and the
> audience here is some 1450 people of all ages and backgrounds, among whom
> several are too young to know about such matters, let alone indulge in them.
> Their parents would almost certainly prefer that they not do so.
>
>
> >You
> > and I seldom disagree, but here I must speak up. That type of language has
> > no place on the Main List. It's vulgar, it's unbecoming of a lady or
> > gentleman, and it's decidedly lacking in dignitas.
>
> Exactly. We should be dignified here, and leave the slang on the BA.
> It does not belong on the magisterial lists or the Senate list, though all
> there are adult, and it most certainly does not belong on the ML, where
> children and people from backgrounds where such things are not discussed in
> public are present. Be respectful of others (not that you aren't, Tulli,
> but some here clearly are not).
>
>
> >Vulgarity is something to
> > be used with great care, in the most limited of private company.
>
>
> Yes.
>
> > I obviously think of you as a man of great character. I would not have
> > entered a sacred bond with someone who did not posses the kind of moral
> > fiber that I require in a partner. I remember when you defended Maior from
> > so rather unsavory language, and I applaud your effort now as I did then. I
> > remember the private discussions we had during that time in which we
> > understood where our friends were coming from, but we felt that their choice
> > of language was unfortunate. If we felt some of those insults were
> > inappropriate for the Back Alley, then isn't this word, which is arguably
> > more foul then the words used on the BA, even more unacceptable to you?
> > Perhaps I have misunderstood your post, if so I hope you will correct me.
> > I'm simply a bit confused. If you found it unacceptable for insults like
> > "Nazi" to be used on the much more casual and private Back Alley, I should
> > think the use of one of the most objectionable curse words on the Main List
> > would horrify you.
>
> Anybody with good sense would protest the use of this word in any
> language on such a list as this one. Some lack the necessary sense of
> propriety to see that certain things are wrong in certain contexts. This
> sort of vulgar language does not belong here. Take it to the BA. I suspect
> that Tullius knows this, but others here do not.
> >
> >
> > "Have you ever had one of those days when something just seems to be trying
> > to tell you somebody?"
> >
> >
> > John Constantine, in SANDMAN #3: "Dream a Little Dream of Me"
> >
> Vale, et valete.
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 4:31 PM, Colin Brodd <magisterbrodd@...> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Gaius Tullius Valerianus M. Hortensiae Maiori S.P.D.
> >>
> >> Salve! I did not report you to anybody - in fact, the point of my post was
> >> that, since we currently have no praetrices due to your own resignation,
> >> there would be nobody to whom I COULD report you if I wanted to . . . but
> >> that since you're running for the office again, I would think you would
> >> want
> >> to have a little more care. Perhaps I should have sent you this advice
> >> privately, off-list, but I just didn't think of that, since your
> >> unfortunate
> >> post was so public.
> >>
> >> Anyway, I say again, I did not report you - I didn't have to - you
> >> committed
> >> this act publicly;everyone saw it, including all those minors whom you want
> >> to protect with "strong moderation." But you're right in that I will have
> >> no
> >> part in bullying or defamation of anyone. Do you remember when you were a
> >> Back Alley member and I defended you from some of the senseless abuse
> >> hurled
> >> your way? I stand by that; you didn't deserve that treatment at that time.
> >> And I'm not opposed to using the verb you did on this list, in theory
> >> (incidentally, Catullus is my favorite poet of all time!) - I'm opposed to
> >> the hypocrisy of demanding strong moderation, then flouting it.
> >>
> >> I'm sorry, Maior, but if there were any chance you were going to get my
> >> vote, you just lost it. I have not made any endorsements for this election
> >> previously, but I can say for certain that you apparent disregard for your
> >> own platform means I cannot vote for you, and I doubt any other citizen who
> >> cares about Nova Roma can do so in good conscience either. And the saddest
> >> part is, Maior, I don't doubt your commitment to living Romanitas, and to
> >> the use of Latin - but you have proven BEYOND doubt your lack of commitment
> >> to integrity, especially if you think you can threaten and bully me for
> >> some
> >> imagined wrong I've done you. I certainly won't be standing up to defend
> >> you
> >> any more.
> >>
> >> Vale.
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>> since the verb f**tere is in the Oxford Latin Dictionary, and examples of
> >>> its use are given with Catullus, Horace and Martial. I would say I'm in
> >> good
> >>> classical company.
> >>>
> >>> What is interesting that Valerianus reported me to the praetorial scribae
> >>> for a latin verb as opposed to the bullying and defamation of me by his
> >>> friends Sulla and Cato. I don't think Valerianus you would be too happy
> >> if I
> >>> called the school you teach at; would you?
> >>>
> >>
> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
>

Cato Iunio Neroni sal.

Brutus the man who was among those who killed Iulius Caesar was not patrician. According to Smith, the family was prominent throughout the whole of Roman history, and all of the members who are known, from the early times of the Republic and on into the Empire, were plebeians.

Servilia was a half-sister to Cato the Younger, descended from the patrician Servilii but herself married to a plebeian, Marcus Iunius Brutus (father of the Brutus who killed Caesar). Her mother Livia Drusa (daughter of Marcus Livius Drusus, another prominent plebeian) was married first to Quintus Servilius Caepio the Younger and then to Marcus Porcius Cato, grandson of Cato the Elder and father of Cato the Younger.

So Servilia's mother married a plebeian and she herself married a plebeian.

Vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Riku Demyx <rikudemyx@...> wrote:
>
> Salve,
> If it was purely plebian name then how did Brutus and Servillia have it and
> still be Patrician?
> Nero
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Cato <catoinnyc@...>
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Fri, July 2, 2010 2:09:52 AM
> Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] Plebians and Patricians.
>
>
> Cato C. Iunio Neroni sal.
>
> Well, I understand your desire to be patrician (since I'm one). Problem is, if
> you are adopted by a patrician family your name will change to reflect that
> adoption.
>
> Remember that your nomen "Iunius" was a plebeian one in ancient Rome, so you are
> actually carrying on that ancient family's heritage.
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Riku Demyx <rikudemyx@> wrote:
> >
> > Salve,
> > One reason is that my names came from Roman's who were both Patrician and
> > respected in their time: Gaius for Caesar Do I really need to explain him?
> > Junius for Brutus the man who killed a man so close to him to preserve the
> > republic, and Nero because no matter how much history tries to deny it he did
> >do
> >
> > good to the Empire. This is by no means to say that the were no Plebians who
> > changed the empire/republic but the three names I chose were not among those
> > great persona's.
> > The second reason as I have stated is that in mine and undoubtedly a few other
>
> > cases(though I am the first I know of to challenge it) the law
> > is extremely unfair in it's position, if I would've tried to join Nova Roma
> >when
> >
> > it was founded then I would've been told no. I can think of no other reasons
> >but
> >
> > I cannot see why I would need a reason, it is a special case that I'm asking to
> >
> > be examined, age should be taken into account as well as the names(since
> > bloodlines are unpractical.)
> > Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant,
> > Nero.
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Belle Morte <syrenslullaby@>
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Fri, July 2, 2010 12:05:00 AM
> > Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] Plebians and Patricians.
> >
> > Aeternia Neroni sal,
> >
> > This makes you want to go awwww just a little. I remember being 19
> > *shivers* it was only a decade ago, part of me wants to tell you the law is
> > the law and we must all adhere to what the laws state, and the other part of
> > me remembers what its like being 19 and wanting to belong.
> >
> > So to make this easier for all those potential future Gens mates..
> >
> > Why do you want to be a Patrician? And yes you have given us a story
> > but not the full sales pitch (take no offense to this I work in sales
> > enviroments) What is the real reason for this heartfelt request?
> >
> > In the meantime, I wish you good luck may your inbox be full from Patrician
> > Families who want you as their new "son"...
> >
> > Vale,
> > Aeternia
> >
> > On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 9:26 PM, Riku Demyx <rikudemyx@> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Salve,
> > > And as I said the last time this issue came up it is unfair at least to
> > > someone
> > > my age (19). I was too young at the founding to be a part of it otherwise I
> > >
> > > undoubtedly would've helped. I mean I have had Rome in my heart and the
> > > Cultus
> > > in my blood since I read books on the Gods. I was what.....9 when NR was
> > > founded
> > > by the laws I wouldn't have been able to join, I am hereby making a request
> > > to
> > > the leaders of NR and/or any patrician families to allow an exception.
> > > Please
> > > note it is a request not a demand, but this really is important to me.
> > > Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant
> > > Nero
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Cn. Cornelius Lentulus <cn_corn_lent@<cn_corn_lent%40yahoo.it>
> > > >
> > > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Thu, July 1, 2010 7:13:32 AM
> > > Subject: R: [Nova-Roma] Plebians and Patricians.
> > >
> > >
> > > Lentulus Neroni sal.
> > >
> > > That's a very good question and there is a very definitive answer to that.
> > >
> > > The division between plebeians and patricians was not a division of merits,
> > >
> > > wealth, etc.
> > >
> > > The division between plebeians and patricians was based on the NAME. It's
> > > hereditary, and means that patricians are the descendants of those first
> > > Romans
> > > who were around the founding of Rome, and were its first important
> > > families. It
> > > might happen, and happened many times in ancient Rome, that some plebeians
> > > were
> > > million times richer than many patricians. For example, L. Sergius Catilina
> > > or
> > > C. Iulius Caesar, both patrician, were relatively poor men, while Cn.
> > > Pompeius
> > > Magnus or Crassus, or Lucullus, all 3 plebeians, were the riches statesmen
> > > in
> > > Rome.
> > >
> > > In Nova Roma we follow and resurrect the traditions of our ancestors, the
> > > ancient Romans. Our patricians are those families in Nova Roma, who were
> > > the
> > > most important people around the founding of Nova Roma, and those
> > > gens-mates of
> > > theirs, who joined in the first few (5-6) years, which still can be
> > > considered
> > > the legendary times of our foundation.
> > >
> > > And why to follow that tradition?
> > >
> > > It's an essential component of a Roman community.
> > >
> > > Those people who are at the beginning of the founding of a new sacred
> > > entity,
> > > such as like our republic and religion, are themselves sacred people, by
> > > the
> > > fact that they contacted first the gods in this new endeavor, they are the
> > > first
> > > whom the gods recognized as their people. This is why in ancient Rome the
> > > patricians could only be priest for a very long time, and the argument was
> > > that
> > > the patricians carried the sacredness of Roman religious instututions in
> > > themselves.
> > >
> > > It was so basic and elementary evidence to them, that any time the Romans
> > > founded a new colony, a new community, their first colonists were the same
> > > way
> > > entitled patricians -- not of Rome, but of the new community. One could be,
> > > e.g.
> > > a plebeian of Rome, and a patrician of Arpinum.
> > >
> > > Even when the distinction between the two castes became extremely obsolete,
> > >
> > > Romans never gave up that idea, until the Christian emperors, in the 4th
> > > century
> > > invented a new system, in which the title patrician was granted to those
> > > clients
> > > of the emperor who served him most faithfull, and filled the consulship,
> > > too.
> > > This new patrician title was a royal distinction, and was not hereditary.
> > > At
> > > that time, only a dozen of people could bear that title in the same time.
> > >
> > > Cura, ut valeas!
> > >
> > > Cn. Lentulus
> > >
> > > --- Gio 1/7/10, Nero <rikudemyx@ <rikudemyx%40yahoo.com>> ha
> > > scritto:
> > >
> > > Da: Nero <rikudemyx@ <rikudemyx%40yahoo.com>>
> > > Oggetto: [Nova-Roma] Plebians and Patricians.
> > > A: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Data: Giovedì 1 luglio 2010, 14:36
> > >
> > > Salvete,
> > >
> > > I feel like a broken record player saying the same thing over and over, but
> > > I
> > > don't think I have yet to ask: Why do we separate the Plebs from the Pats
> > > by
> > > when we joined? Should there not be a different system. Granted it is
> > > similar to
> > > the way our ancestors decided but as we prove time and time again we can
> > > change
> > > from their ways.
> > >
> > > This has been bothering me for a good week or two.
> > >
> > > Di Vos Imcolumes Custodiant
> > >
> > > Nero
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus Catoni salutem dicit

I was thinking of this as well. I think I'm the only person in Nova Roma to
go from Plebeian to Patrician via adoption. I very much liked Modius and
Athanasius but I'm also fond of my name now.

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus

On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 4:09 AM, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:

>
>
> Cato C. Iunio Neroni sal.
>
> Well, I understand your desire to be patrician (since I'm one). Problem is,
> if you are adopted by a patrician family your name will change to reflect
> that adoption.
>
> Remember that your nomen "Iunius" was a plebeian one in ancient Rome, so
> you are actually carrying on that ancient family's heritage.
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Save Hortensia,



You may imagine that the praetura team has attentively checked, as usual, our rules, specially our public religious calendar.



Our public religious rules ( http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Responsum_Pontificum_de_Diebus_%28Nova_Roma%29 )



say first that : "Tribunals may be open and petitiones actionis and other documents may be accepted. However, the praetores cannot pass a sentence (because they cannot say the words do, dico, addico)."



As you may have forgotten, the praetorian moderation work is an *administrative* one, *not a judicial one*. The praetors do not thus act in the frame of their judicial powers, but in their simple administrative potestas, and, when necessary, imperium.



So the sentence above, concerning *tribunals* and the *judicial* field does not apply here.



The daily administrative work of the various public services is not forbidden on nefasti dies, as confirms the remaining part of our text here:

"Public worship has preference over private worship. It is not recommended to celebrate marriages.
Comitia should not be called. Contiones may be called to inform the People, but no voting should take place. The Senate may meet, but affairs concerning cultus and religio should be dealt with before any civil affair in the Senate agenda.
Private activities are not favoured. It is not recommended to begin a journey or to sign contracts, or to generally start a new activity. Should an action have begun on a previous day, however, it might be carried on normally. Markets may be open."


On the parallel you are evoking, I had not myself, at this time, considered, and exactly for the same reasons, that you had made an impietas. You sure remember my letter attached below, who informed you and Dexter of my position, the same one.



Vale,





Albucius cos.

p. praet.



---------------------------------------------------attached-------------------------------------------------------------------



De : Publius Memmius Albucius <albucius_aoe@...>
À : rory12001@...; Gaius Petronius Dexter <jfarnoud94@...>
Cc : deandreaboyle@...; Maxima Valeria Messallina <maximavaleriamessallina@...>; Aquilius Rota <castra.rota@...>; corvvs@...; c.curius@...; Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@...>
Envoyé le : Mar 8 juin 2010, 22h 43min 01s
Objet : Nefasti dies and public piaculum



Dextro Maiori s.d.

The arguments that you are exchanging seem to be important enough to justify my intervention, as consul. Not on their cause, which I wish to let in the peace of Vesta and Mens, but on their religious aspect:

You are evoking two points:

- the nefasti dies and the acts we are allowed, or not, do on these days

If I do not forget any source, our common legal source is still our web site page: http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Responsum_Pontificum_de_Diebus_%28Nova_Roma%29

Could you, both as members of the Collegium Pontificum, confirm to me that there is no other current applicable rule?
If not, we will sure agree, using Mens Bona's attributes, that what is not forbidden there is therefore authorized, ok?

- what should be made when one of us (and let us relax, it *may*, if naturally we all try to avoid it, happen to all of us, in unhappily circumstances) breaks the pax deorum and commits an impietas?

Here, should we provide a public piaculum, and who?

Vobis gratias et valete ambo, et omnes,


Albucius cos.













Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 20:26:37 -0700
From: rory12001@...
Subject: Re: Notification of moderation for 72 hours
To: albucius_aoe@...
CC: praetores@yahoogroups.com; nova-roma@yahoogroups.com; christer.edling@...; tau.athanasios@...; iulius_sabinus@...





Salvete; I'm not objecting to Albucius as praetor or the sentence. That is fine

But the day July 1, is nefastus. I refer you to the Nova Roma calender and the CP, as I have done the same thing and it is impietas, requiring a piaculum.


However, the praetores cannot pass a sentence (because they cannot say the wordsdo, dico, addico).

--- On Thu, 7/1/10, Publius Memmius Albucius <albucius_aoe@...> wrote:


From: Publius Memmius Albucius <albucius_aoe@...>
Subject: Notification of moderation for 72 hours
To: rory12001@...
Cc: "Liste préteurs" <praetores@yahoogroups.com>, nova-roma@yahoogroups.com, "Caeso Fabius Quintilianus" <christer.edling@...>, "Fabius Buteo Modianus" <tau.athanasios@...>, "Iulius Sabinus" <iulius_sabinus@...>
Date: Thursday, July 1, 2010, 5:07 PM




Hortensiae s.d.

You have already issued an offensive, insulting and vulgar message in a senatorial list. I have not wished, as you well know, underlining the infractions that you have committed there, preferring bidding on your cleverness, your dignitas, your seniority and the fact that, as you were candidate for praetor, you would be eager to behave as you would demand our cives and fora members to do.

But today, I receive communication of the sentence below (Message #77198 of 77216 Thu Jul 1, 2010 6:10 am) :

"Haec sunt fututi facti Albuciani ;-)"

Here too, I will not charge you for the insult addressed to the consul but address the insult to the citizen.

I have just asked the praetorian team to place you under moderation for 72 hours, from this Kal. Quint. 21:00 Rome time to next a.d. IV Nonas Quint., same hour.

The fact that the latin verb "futuere" be in a Latin dictionary, as many English insults are in most current dictionaries, does not delete the insulting character of this sentence, and the fact that such kind of insult is not authorized by our edictum de sermone as, besides, the rule you preferred to refer to when praetor, Yahoo!'s TOS. Please try to learn the differences between humor and insult if you cannot well see them.

In addition, your behavior is not admissible coming from a candidate to the praetura, and you seem not realizing that you do exactly the same than what you would be in charge, if elected, to sanction as praetrix.

Whatever you may think, politically, of this or that civis, officer or magistrate, your arguments are welcome from the moment they remain in the frame of our legal rules.

You will remark, last, that I am keeping silence on the fact that you have published your insulting letter, issued in the senatorial list, in your message in the Main List, though every discussion in such lists are supposed to be displayed just to the concerned people.

This letter of notification will be published in our Forum romanum. Every legal appeal, allowed by Nova Roma laws, is available for you, naturally.

Vale,


Albucius cos.
p. praet.








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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cato Modinao sal.

It's a good thing you like it, cause it's yours lol Speaking of your name, though, I've wondered why you use the "C" in what I think is the magnificent Kaeso - one of the only names in the Roman system that uses the "K".

But for instance, if I adopted him he'd become (I think) Gaius Equitius Cato Iunianus, so he'd be gaining patrician status but be losing the "Nero" part, which I'm sure he wants to keep.

Vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, David Kling <tau.athanasios@...> wrote:
>
> Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus Catoni salutem dicit
>
> I was thinking of this as well. I think I'm the only person in Nova Roma to
> go from Plebeian to Patrician via adoption. I very much liked Modius and
> Athanasius but I'm also fond of my name now.
>
> Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus
>
> On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 4:09 AM, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Cato C. Iunio Neroni sal.
> >
> > Well, I understand your desire to be patrician (since I'm one). Problem is,
> > if you are adopted by a patrician family your name will change to reflect
> > that adoption.
> >
> > Remember that your nomen "Iunius" was a plebeian one in ancient Rome, so
> > you are actually carrying on that ancient family's heritage.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Cato
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Aeternia Catoni Neroni sal,


Cato, looks like you beat me to it on the explaining of this. Nicely
done..



Vale,
Aeternia

On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 2:12 AM, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:

>
>
> Cato Iunio Neroni sal.
>
> Brutus the man who was among those who killed Iulius Caesar was not
> patrician. According to Smith, the family was prominent throughout the whole
> of Roman history, and all of the members who are known, from the early times
> of the Republic and on into the Empire, were plebeians.
>
> Servilia was a half-sister to Cato the Younger, descended from the
> patrician Servilii but herself married to a plebeian, Marcus Iunius Brutus
> (father of the Brutus who killed Caesar). Her mother Livia Drusa (daughter
> of Marcus Livius Drusus, another prominent plebeian) was married first to
> Quintus Servilius Caepio the Younger and then to Marcus Porcius Cato,
> grandson of Cato the Elder and father of Cato the Younger.
>
> So Servilia's mother married a plebeian and she herself married a plebeian.
>
>
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>, Riku Demyx
> <rikudemyx@...> wrote:
> >
> > Salve,
> > If it was purely plebian name then how did Brutus and Servillia have it
> and
> > still be Patrician?
> > Nero
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Cato <catoinnyc@...>
>
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Fri, July 2, 2010 2:09:52 AM
> > Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] Plebians and Patricians.
> >
> >
> > Cato C. Iunio Neroni sal.
> >
> > Well, I understand your desire to be patrician (since I'm one). Problem
> is, if
> > you are adopted by a patrician family your name will change to reflect
> that
> > adoption.
> >
> > Remember that your nomen "Iunius" was a plebeian one in ancient Rome, so
> you are
> > actually carrying on that ancient family's heritage.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Cato
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>, Riku
> Demyx <rikudemyx@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Salve,
> > > One reason is that my names came from Roman's who were both Patrician
> and
> > > respected in their time: Gaius for Caesar Do I really need to explain
> him?
> > > Junius for Brutus the man who killed a man so close to him to preserve
> the
> > > republic, and Nero because no matter how much history tries to deny it
> he did
> > >do
> > >
> > > good to the Empire. This is by no means to say that the were no
> Plebians who
> > > changed the empire/republic but the three names I chose were not among
> those
> > > great persona's.
> > > The second reason as I have stated is that in mine and undoubtedly a
> few other
> >
> > > cases(though I am the first I know of to challenge it) the law
> > > is extremely unfair in it's position, if I would've tried to join Nova
> Roma
> > >when
> > >
> > > it was founded then I would've been told no. I can think of no other
> reasons
> > >but
> > >
> > > I cannot see why I would need a reason, it is a special case that I'm
> asking to
> > >
> > > be examined, age should be taken into account as well as the
> names(since
> > > bloodlines are unpractical.)
> > > Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant,
> > > Nero.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Belle Morte <syrenslullaby@>
> > > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Fri, July 2, 2010 12:05:00 AM
> > > Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] Plebians and Patricians.
> > >
> > > Aeternia Neroni sal,
> > >
> > > This makes you want to go awwww just a little. I remember being 19
> > > *shivers* it was only a decade ago, part of me wants to tell you the
> law is
> > > the law and we must all adhere to what the laws state, and the other
> part of
> > > me remembers what its like being 19 and wanting to belong.
> > >
> > > So to make this easier for all those potential future Gens mates..
> > >
> > > Why do you want to be a Patrician? And yes you have given us a story
> > > but not the full sales pitch (take no offense to this I work in sales
> > > enviroments) What is the real reason for this heartfelt request?
> > >
> > > In the meantime, I wish you good luck may your inbox be full from
> Patrician
> > > Families who want you as their new "son"...
> > >
> > > Vale,
> > > Aeternia
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 9:26 PM, Riku Demyx <rikudemyx@> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Salve,
> > > > And as I said the last time this issue came up it is unfair at least
> to
> > > > someone
> > > > my age (19). I was too young at the founding to be a part of it
> otherwise I
> > > >
> > > > undoubtedly would've helped. I mean I have had Rome in my heart and
> the
> > > > Cultus
> > > > in my blood since I read books on the Gods. I was what.....9 when NR
> was
> > > > founded
> > > > by the laws I wouldn't have been able to join, I am hereby making a
> request
> > > > to
> > > > the leaders of NR and/or any patrician families to allow an
> exception.
> > > > Please
> > > > note it is a request not a demand, but this really is important to
> me.
> > > > Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant
> > > > Nero
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Cn. Cornelius Lentulus <cn_corn_lent@<cn_corn_lent%40yahoo.it>
> > > > >
> > > > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com><Nova-Roma%
> 40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Sent: Thu, July 1, 2010 7:13:32 AM
> > > > Subject: R: [Nova-Roma] Plebians and Patricians.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Lentulus Neroni sal.
> > > >
> > > > That's a very good question and there is a very definitive answer to
> that.
> > > >
> > > > The division between plebeians and patricians was not a division of
> merits,
> > > >
> > > > wealth, etc.
> > > >
> > > > The division between plebeians and patricians was based on the NAME.
> It's
> > > > hereditary, and means that patricians are the descendants of those
> first
> > > > Romans
> > > > who were around the founding of Rome, and were its first important
> > > > families. It
> > > > might happen, and happened many times in ancient Rome, that some
> plebeians
> > > > were
> > > > million times richer than many patricians. For example, L. Sergius
> Catilina
> > > > or
> > > > C. Iulius Caesar, both patrician, were relatively poor men, while Cn.
> > > > Pompeius
> > > > Magnus or Crassus, or Lucullus, all 3 plebeians, were the riches
> statesmen
> > > > in
> > > > Rome.
> > > >
> > > > In Nova Roma we follow and resurrect the traditions of our ancestors,
> the
> > > > ancient Romans. Our patricians are those families in Nova Roma, who
> were
> > > > the
> > > > most important people around the founding of Nova Roma, and those
> > > > gens-mates of
> > > > theirs, who joined in the first few (5-6) years, which still can be
> > > > considered
> > > > the legendary times of our foundation.
> > > >
> > > > And why to follow that tradition?
> > > >
> > > > It's an essential component of a Roman community.
> > > >
> > > > Those people who are at the beginning of the founding of a new sacred
> > > > entity,
> > > > such as like our republic and religion, are themselves sacred people,
> by
> > > > the
> > > > fact that they contacted first the gods in this new endeavor, they
> are the
> > > > first
> > > > whom the gods recognized as their people. This is why in ancient Rome
> the
> > > > patricians could only be priest for a very long time, and the
> argument was
> > > > that
> > > > the patricians carried the sacredness of Roman religious instututions
> in
> > > > themselves.
> > > >
> > > > It was so basic and elementary evidence to them, that any time the
> Romans
> > > > founded a new colony, a new community, their first colonists were the
> same
> > > > way
> > > > entitled patricians -- not of Rome, but of the new community. One
> could be,
> > > > e.g.
> > > > a plebeian of Rome, and a patrician of Arpinum.
> > > >
> > > > Even when the distinction between the two castes became extremely
> obsolete,
> > > >
> > > > Romans never gave up that idea, until the Christian emperors, in the
> 4th
> > > > century
> > > > invented a new system, in which the title patrician was granted to
> those
> > > > clients
> > > > of the emperor who served him most faithfull, and filled the
> consulship,
> > > > too.
> > > > This new patrician title was a royal distinction, and was not
> hereditary.
> > > > At
> > > > that time, only a dozen of people could bear that title in the same
> time.
> > > >
> > > > Cura, ut valeas!
> > > >
> > > > Cn. Lentulus
> > > >
> > > > --- Gio 1/7/10, Nero <rikudemyx@ <rikudemyx%40yahoo.com>> ha
> > > > scritto:
> > > >
> > > > Da: Nero <rikudemyx@ <rikudemyx%40yahoo.com>>
> > > > Oggetto: [Nova-Roma] Plebians and Patricians.
> > > > A: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com><Nova-Roma%
> 40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Data: Gioved�� 1 luglio 2010, 14:36
>
> > > >
> > > > Salvete,
> > > >
> > > > I feel like a broken record player saying the same thing over and
> over, but
> > > > I
> > > > don't think I have yet to ask: Why do we separate the Plebs from the
> Pats
> > > > by
> > > > when we joined? Should there not be a different system. Granted it is
> > > > similar to
> > > > the way our ancestors decided but as we prove time and time again we
> can
> > > > change
> > > > from their ways.
> > > >
> > > > This has been bothering me for a good week or two.
> > > >
> > > > Di Vos Imcolumes Custodiant
> > > >
> > > > Nero
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cato Aeterniae sal.

:)

Sometimes when you go through these genealogies you wonder how they managed to end up without two heads and flippers.

Vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Belle Morte <syrenslullaby@...> wrote:
>
> Aeternia Catoni Neroni sal,
>
>
> Cato, looks like you beat me to it on the explaining of this. Nicely
> done..
>
>
>
> Vale,
> Aeternia
>
> On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 2:12 AM, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Cato Iunio Neroni sal.
> >
> > Brutus the man who was among those who killed Iulius Caesar was not
> > patrician. According to Smith, the family was prominent throughout the whole
> > of Roman history, and all of the members who are known, from the early times
> > of the Republic and on into the Empire, were plebeians.
> >
> > Servilia was a half-sister to Cato the Younger, descended from the
> > patrician Servilii but herself married to a plebeian, Marcus Iunius Brutus
> > (father of the Brutus who killed Caesar). Her mother Livia Drusa (daughter
> > of Marcus Livius Drusus, another prominent plebeian) was married first to
> > Quintus Servilius Caepio the Younger and then to Marcus Porcius Cato,
> > grandson of Cato the Elder and father of Cato the Younger.
> >
> > So Servilia's mother married a plebeian and she herself married a plebeian.
> >
> >
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Cato
> >

Servilia was a patrician by her birth....but married into the Plebian
family.

Her name was *Servilia* *Caepionis

Q. Servilius Caepio the younger was her father.
*

On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 1:30 AM, Riku Demyx <rikudemyx@...> wrote:

>
>
> Salve,
> If it was purely plebian name then how did Brutus and Servillia have it and
>
> still be Patrician?
> Nero
>
> ________________________________
> From: Cato <catoinnyc@... <catoinnyc%40gmail.com>>
>
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Fri, July 2, 2010 2:09:52 AM
>
> Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] Plebians and Patricians.
>
> Cato C. Iunio Neroni sal.
>
> Well, I understand your desire to be patrician (since I'm one). Problem is,
> if
> you are adopted by a patrician family your name will change to reflect that
>
> adoption.
>
> Remember that your nomen "Iunius" was a plebeian one in ancient Rome, so
> you are
> actually carrying on that ancient family's heritage.
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>, Riku Demyx
> <rikudemyx@...> wrote:
> >
> > Salve,
> > One reason is that my names came from Roman's who were both Patrician and
>
> > respected in their time: Gaius for Caesar Do I really need to explain
> him?
> > Junius for Brutus the man who killed a man so close to him to preserve
> the
> > republic, and Nero because no matter how much history tries to deny it he
> did
> >do
> >
> > good to the Empire. This is by no means to say that the were no Plebians
> who
> > changed the empire/republic but the three names I chose were not among
> those
> > great persona's.
> > The second reason as I have stated is that in mine and undoubtedly a few
> other
>
> > cases(though I am the first I know of to challenge it) the law
> > is extremely unfair in it's position, if I would've tried to join Nova
> Roma
> >when
> >
> > it was founded then I would've been told no. I can think of no other
> reasons
> >but
> >
> > I cannot see why I would need a reason, it is a special case that I'm
> asking to
> >
> > be examined, age should be taken into account as well as the names(since
> > bloodlines are unpractical.)
> > Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant,
> > Nero.
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Belle Morte <syrenslullaby@...>
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Fri, July 2, 2010 12:05:00 AM
> > Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] Plebians and Patricians.
> >
> > Aeternia Neroni sal,
> >
> > This makes you want to go awwww just a little. I remember being 19
> > *shivers* it was only a decade ago, part of me wants to tell you the law
> is
> > the law and we must all adhere to what the laws state, and the other part
> of
> > me remembers what its like being 19 and wanting to belong.
> >
> > So to make this easier for all those potential future Gens mates..
> >
> > Why do you want to be a Patrician? And yes you have given us a story
> > but not the full sales pitch (take no offense to this I work in sales
> > enviroments) What is the real reason for this heartfelt request?
> >
> > In the meantime, I wish you good luck may your inbox be full from
> Patrician
> > Families who want you as their new "son"...
> >
> > Vale,
> > Aeternia
> >
> > On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 9:26 PM, Riku Demyx <rikudemyx@...> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Salve,
> > > And as I said the last time this issue came up it is unfair at least to
> > > someone
> > > my age (19). I was too young at the founding to be a part of it
> otherwise I
> > >
> > > undoubtedly would've helped. I mean I have had Rome in my heart and the
> > > Cultus
> > > in my blood since I read books on the Gods. I was what.....9 when NR
> was
> > > founded
> > > by the laws I wouldn't have been able to join, I am hereby making a
> request
> > > to
> > > the leaders of NR and/or any patrician families to allow an exception.
> > > Please
> > > note it is a request not a demand, but this really is important to me.
> > > Di Vos Incolumes Custodiant
> > > Nero
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Cn. Cornelius Lentulus <cn_corn_lent@...<cn_corn_lent%40yahoo.it
> >
> > > >
> > > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com><Nova-Roma%
> 40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Thu, July 1, 2010 7:13:32 AM
> > > Subject: R: [Nova-Roma] Plebians and Patricians.
> > >
> > >
> > > Lentulus Neroni sal.
> > >
> > > That's a very good question and there is a very definitive answer to
> that.
> > >
> > > The division between plebeians and patricians was not a division of
> merits,
> > >
> > > wealth, etc.
> > >
> > > The division between plebeians and patricians was based on the NAME.
> It's
> > > hereditary, and means that patricians are the descendants of those
> first
> > > Romans
> > > who were around the founding of Rome, and were its first important
> > > families. It
> > > might happen, and happened many times in ancient Rome, that some
> plebeians
> > > were
> > > million times richer than many patricians. For example, L. Sergius
> Catilina
> > > or
> > > C. Iulius Caesar, both patrician, were relatively poor men, while Cn.
> > > Pompeius
> > > Magnus or Crassus, or Lucullus, all 3 plebeians, were the riches
> statesmen
> > > in
> > > Rome.
> > >
> > > In Nova Roma we follow and resurrect the traditions of our ancestors,
> the
> > > ancient Romans. Our patricians are those families in Nova Roma, who
> were
> > > the
> > > most important people around the founding of Nova Roma, and those
> > > gens-mates of
> > > theirs, who joined in the first few (5-6) years, which still can be
> > > considered
> > > the legendary times of our foundation.
> > >
> > > And why to follow that tradition?
> > >
> > > It's an essential component of a Roman community.
> > >
> > > Those people who are at the beginning of the founding of a new sacred
> > > entity,
> > > such as like our republic and religion, are themselves sacred people,
> by
> > > the
> > > fact that they contacted first the gods in this new endeavor, they are
> the
> > > first
> > > whom the gods recognized as their people. This is why in ancient Rome
> the
> > > patricians could only be priest for a very long time, and the argument
> was
> > > that
> > > the patricians carried the sacredness of Roman religious instututions
> in
> > > themselves.
> > >
> > > It was so basic and elementary evidence to them, that any time the
> Romans
> > > founded a new colony, a new community, their first colonists were the
> same
> > > way
> > > entitled patricians -- not of Rome, but of the new community. One could
> be,
> > > e.g.
> > > a plebeian of Rome, and a patrician of Arpinum.
> > >
> > > Even when the distinction between the two castes became extremely
> obsolete,
> > >
> > > Romans never gave up that idea, until the Christian emperors, in the
> 4th
> > > century
> > > invented a new system, in which the title patrician was granted to
> those
> > > clients
> > > of the emperor who served him most faithfull, and filled the
> consulship,
> > > too.
> > > This new patrician title was a royal distinction, and was not
> hereditary.
> > > At
> > > that time, only a dozen of people could bear that title in the same
> time.
> > >
> > > Cura, ut valeas!
> > >
> > > Cn. Lentulus
> > >
> > > --- Gio 1/7/10, Nero <rikudemyx@... <rikudemyx%40yahoo.com>> ha
> > > scritto:
> > >
> > > Da: Nero <rikudemyx@... <rikudemyx%40yahoo.com>>
> > > Oggetto: [Nova-Roma] Plebians and Patricians.
> > > A: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com> <Nova-Roma%
> 40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Data: Gioved� 1 luglio 2010, 14:36
> > >
> > > Salvete,
> > >
> > > I feel like a broken record player saying the same thing over and over,
> but
> > > I
> > > don't think I have yet to ask: Why do we separate the Plebs from the
> Pats
> > > by
> > > when we joined? Should there not be a different system. Granted it is
> > > similar to
> > > the way our ancestors decided but as we prove time and time again we
> can
> > > change
> > > from their ways.
> > >
> > > This has been bothering me for a good week or two.
> > >
> > > Di Vos Imcolumes Custodiant
> > >
> > > Nero
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


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