Selected messages in Nova-Roma group. Aug 1-5, 2010

Group: Nova-Roma Message: 78989 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: Re: Recent events
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 78990 From: Vedius Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: Re: Recent events
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 78991 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: Re: Recent events
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 78992 From: Vedius Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: Re: Recent events
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 78993 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: Re: Recent events
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 78994 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: KALENDAE SEXTILIAE: Victoria, Spes Bona, Victoria Virgo
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 78995 From: Cato Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: Re: Witness Statement from L. Livia Plauta
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 78996 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: Re: The Current Situation
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 78997 From: Cato Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: Re: The Current Situation
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 78998 From: octaviusgracchus Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: Re: The Current Situation
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 78999 From: deciusiunius Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: Re: The Current Situation
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79000 From: Timothy or Stephen Gallagher Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: FW: [Explorator] explorator 13.15
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79001 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: Re: [BackAlley] Re: The Current Situation
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79002 From: Vedius Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: Re: The Current Situation
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79003 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: Re: The Current Situation
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79004 From: octaviusgracchus Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: Re: The Current Situation
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79005 From: octaviusgracchus Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: Re: The Current Situation
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79006 From: octaviusgracchus Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: Re: The Current Situation
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79007 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: An Explosive Revelation - Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: The Current Situation
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79008 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: Re: The Current Situation
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79010 From: M Arminius Maior Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: Witnessing Statement
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79011 From: Diana Octavia Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: Re: The Current Situation
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79012 From: Diana Octavia Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: Re: The Current Situation
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79013 From: Diana Octavia Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: Re: Witnessing Statement
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79014 From: Cato Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: Re: The Current Situation
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79015 From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: After every Kalends, Nones, Ides, the next day is "Ater", 8/2/2010,
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79016 From: Cato Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: PETITIO ACTIONIS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79017 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: Responsum ad Piscinum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79018 From: Q. Caecilius Metellus Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: Re: Responsum ad Piscinum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79019 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: Marriage and divorce in NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79020 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: Marriage and divorce in NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79021 From: Chantal Gaudiano Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Witness Statement
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79022 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Confarreationes in August
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79023 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: Marriage and divorce in NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79024 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: Marriage and divorce in NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79025 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: Marriage and divorce in NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79026 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: Marriage and divorce in NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79027 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: Marriage and divorce in NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79028 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: DIES ATER
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79029 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: a. d. IV Nonas Sextilias: Battle of Cannae; Battle of Zela
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79030 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: Marriage and divorce in NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79031 From: Cato Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: Marriage and divorce in NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79032 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: PETITIO ACTIONIS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79033 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: PETITIO ACTIONIS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79034 From: Belle Morte Statia Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: PETITIO ACTIONIS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79035 From: Susan Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: PETITIO ACTIONIS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79036 From: Belle Morte Statia Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: PETITIO ACTIONIS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79037 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: PETITIO ACTIONIS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79038 From: fauxrari Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: Marriage and divorce in NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79039 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: Marriage and divorce in NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79040 From: mcorvvs Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Tribunician report for July session of the Senate
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79041 From: Gaius Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: Tribunician report for July session of the Senate
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79042 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: Responsum ad Piscinum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79043 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: PETITIO ACTIONIS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79044 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: PETITIO ACTIONIS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79045 From: Cato Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: PETITIO ACTIONIS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79046 From: Cato Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: Tribunician report for July session of the Senate
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79047 From: Publius Memmius Albucius Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Your "instructions" to the Lictores curiati
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79048 From: Cato Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: PETITIO ACTIONIS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79049 From: publiusalbucius Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Sarmatia province limits, Poltava and fires
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79050 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Friendship and humor: A social dynamic in Cicero's letters
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79051 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: On the reliability of sense perceptions in Epicurean epistemology
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79052 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: "Imitation Greeks": Being Syrian in the Greco-Roman world (175 BCE-2
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79053 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: A study of Fulvia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79054 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Ciceronian fallibilism in Kant's "Critique of Pure Reason": A rhetor
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79055 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Form, intent, and the fragmentary Roman historians 240 to 63 B.C.E.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79056 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Memory and leadership in the Late Roman Republic
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79057 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: (Re)Constructing Cato Maior: A literary assessment of the reception
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79058 From: Gnaea Livia Ocella Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: A study of Fulvia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79059 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Profile of a Roman citizen: A prosopographical study of Cn. Corneliu
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79060 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Style and character in Ciceronian oratory
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79061 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: The changing role of the Roman matron in the Republican period
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79062 From: Cato Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: PETITIO ACTIONIS - FALSUM
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79063 From: Chantal Gaudiano Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Regarding Witness Statement
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79064 From: aerdensrw Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: Marriage and divorce in NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79065 From: Diana Octavia Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: Your "instructions" to the Lictores curiati
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79066 From: A. Apollónius Cordus Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: On the trial of M. Hortensia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79067 From: Cato Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: On the trial of M. Hortensia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79068 From: Michael K Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: Tribunician report for July session of the Senate
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79069 From: Jean-François Arnoud Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re : Your "instructions" to the Lictores curiati
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79070 From: C. Curius Saturninus Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Witnessing appointment
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79071 From: Cato Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: Witnessing appointment
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79072 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: Tribunician report for July session of the Senate.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79073 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: Witnessing appointment
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79075 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Soldier speech acts in Greek and Roman literature and society
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79076 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: A corpus-based approach to infinitival complements in early Latin
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79077 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Ethnographic characterization in Lucan's "Bellum Civile"
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79078 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Representations of pharmacy in Roman literature from Cato to Ovid
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79079 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Accounting and recounting: Cato the Censor and the politics of cultu
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79080 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Remembering the Roman Republic, A.D. 68--117
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79081 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Worshiping Diana: The cult of a Roman goddess in Republican Italy
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79082 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Cicero and the legacy of Cato Uticensis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79083 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Cultivating Romans: Republican agricultural writing and the inventio
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79084 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: The elder Cato: A philological reassessment
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79085 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: Witnessing appointment
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79086 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: The reinvention of Judean collective identity in a Hellenistic world
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79087 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: MEMOIRS AND THE PERCEPTION OF HISTORY IN THE ROMAN REPUBLIC
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79088 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Valerius Maximus and the idealized republic: A study in his represen
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79091 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: On the trial of M. Hortensia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79092 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: PETITIO ACTIONIS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79093 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: On the trial of M. Hortensia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79094 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: PETITIO ACTIONIS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79095 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: On the trial of M. Hortensia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79096 From: Jean-François Arnoud Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re : Your "instructions" to the Lictores curiati
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79097 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: Witnessing appointment
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79098 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: Your "instructions" to the Lictores curiati
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79099 From: Cato Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: On the trial of M. Hortensia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79100 From: Cato Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: On the trial of M. Hortensia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79102 From: Diana Octavia Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: Witnessing witnesses
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79103 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: Witnessing appointment
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79104 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: Your "instructions" to the Lictores curiati
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79105 From: Vedius Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: Your "instructions" to the Lictores curiati
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79106 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: Your "instructions" to the Lictores curiati
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79107 From: Diana Octavia Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: Your "instructions" to the Lictores curiati
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79109 From: Cato Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: Your "instructions" to the Lictores curiati
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79110 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: PETITIO ACTIONIS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79111 From: C.Maria Caeca Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: To our Sarmatians Cives, please ...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79112 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: Your "instructions" to the Lictores curiati
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79113 From: C.Maria Caeca Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: Soldier speech acts in Greek and Roman literature and society
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79114 From: C.Maria Caeca Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: Remembering the Roman Republic, A.D. 68--117
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79115 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: To our Sarmatians Cives, please ...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79116 From: Cato Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: PETITIO ACTIONIS - LAESA PATRIAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79117 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: Witnessing appointment
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79118 From: Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Been away...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79119 From: Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: MASTER of the People???
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79120 From: Cato Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: MASTER of the People???
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79121 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Pridie Nonae Sextiliae: Nuptiae - Roman forms of marriage
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79122 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: MAGISTER POPULI
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79123 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: Senate Rules and State law on quorums
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79124 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: MASTER of the People???
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79125 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: Senate Rules and State law on quorums
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79126 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: A letter of public thanks to Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79127 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: PETITIO ACTIONIS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79128 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: Witnessing appointment
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79129 From: Kirsteen Wright Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: PETITIO ACTIONIS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79130 From: Cato Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: Senate Rules and State law on quorums
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79131 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: Senate Rules and State law on quorums
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79132 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: Senate Rules and State law on quorums
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79133 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: MAGISTER POPULI
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79134 From: Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: Claudia Juliana was right
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79135 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: Witnessing appointment
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79136 From: Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Apology to Marinus; was Re: MASTER of the People???
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79137 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: Witnessing appointment
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79138 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: Witnessing appointment
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79139 From: qvalerius Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: Witnessing appointment
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79140 From: Cato Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: Witnessing appointment
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79141 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: Witnessing appointment
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79142 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: PETITIO ACTIONIS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79143 From: Gaius Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: PETITIO ACTIONIS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79144 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: PETITIO ACTIONIS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79145 From: Kirsteen Wright Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: PETITIO ACTIONIS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79146 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Confarreationes in August
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79147 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2010-08-05
Subject: Re: Witnessing appointment
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79148 From: Jean-François Arnoud Date: 2010-08-05
Subject: Re : Re : Your "instructions" to the Lictores curiati
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79149 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2010-08-05
Subject: Re: Witnessing appointment
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79150 From: Timothy or Stephen Gallagher Date: 2010-08-05
Subject: Re: On the trial of M. Hortensia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79151 From: Cato Date: 2010-08-05
Subject: Re: On the trial of M. Hortensia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79152 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-08-05
Subject: Re: Witnessing appointment
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79153 From: qvalerius Date: 2010-08-05
Subject: Re: Witnessing appointment
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79154 From: eagled2 Date: 2010-08-05
Subject: New Site Design
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79155 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2010-08-05
Subject: Re: Witnessing appointment
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79156 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2010-08-05
Subject: Re: Witnessing appointment
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79157 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-08-05
Subject: NONAE SEXTILIAE: Temple of Salus; Second Battle of Nola
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79158 From: Stefn Ullarsson Piparskeggr Date: 2010-08-05
Subject: Re: New Site Design
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79159 From: Cato Date: 2010-08-05
Subject: Re: Witnessing appointment
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79160 From: eagled2 Date: 2010-08-05
Subject: Re: New Site Design
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79161 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-08-05
Subject: Re: Senate Rules and State law on quorums
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79162 From: David Kling Date: 2010-08-05
Subject: Witnessing of Imperium - Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79163 From: David Kling Date: 2010-08-05
Subject: Re: Witnessing of Imperium - Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79164 From: Cato Date: 2010-08-05
Subject: Re: Senate Rules and State law on quorums
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79165 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-05
Subject: Re: Senate Rules and State law on quorums
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79166 From: iulius sabinus Date: 2010-08-05
Subject: Re: Tribunician report for July session of the Senate.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79167 From: Christer Edling Date: 2010-08-05
Subject: Witnessing Statement
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79168 From: iulius sabinus Date: 2010-08-05
Subject: Re: Senate Rules and State law on quorums
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79169 From: Belle Morte Statia Date: 2010-08-05
Subject: Re: To our Sarmatians Cives, please ...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79170 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2010-08-05
Subject: Re: New Site Design



Group: Nova-Roma Message: 78989 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: Re: Recent events
>
>
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica Flavio Vedio Germanico quiritibus bonae voluntatis
> S.P.D.
>
> Salve,
>
> The date on which tribunes take office is an "urgent matter"?
>
>
> ATS: Funny, but I don¹t recall saying that. This item, however, was the
> first, and no doubt least controversial, one on the Senate agenda for the
> session immediately preceding the one in which we are supposedly voting.
> Since that Senate session is under a cloud, we must hold a proper one, and
> vote on this as well as the other topics. Makes sense to me.
>
>
> It will
> somehow prevent the business of the Res Publica from functioning, if our
> tribunes assume their offices on one day, as opposed to another? I would
> ask you to please expand on this statement. How does this rise to the
> level of a matter that requires the extraordinary step of appointing a
> Dictator to rectify it? Can the Res Publica function without this
> "vital" matter being addressed? Is it an "emergency"?
>
> You mention "the IT issue". Can you please define what, exactly, you
> mean by this?
>
> ATS: There is a description of this on the Senate agenda. I leave
> descriptions of cyber matters to those who are far more versed in them than I
> am.
>
>
> The expenditure of $10,000 on web infrastructure
> development? Surely a Consul, with the backing of the Senate, can do so
> without an extraordinarius being appointed.
>
> ATS: Recent history would indicate otherwise. If you check the archives,
> you may find some comments from Octavius about the nature of the endeavor and
> its cost, which he finds rather reasonable. Possibly he could comment further
> on the numerous functions which must be included, and the fact that these are
> hardly off-the-shelf items.
>
>
> Perhaps the problem is that
> we have Consuls who have not made the case persuasively enough (in which
> case it must be asked, is it the case itself that is lacking?). Again,
> what about this needs a Dictator? Surely a competent Consul can do this,
> if it indeed needs doing (which is a point to which I do not accede, and
> which doesn't seem to have been sufficiently discussed prior to being
> abortively rammed through the process). If it's a good idea, the Consuls
> can do it. If it's a bad idea, it won't get any better for having been
> done by a Dictator.
>
> Appointing praetores and other magistrates? What is wrong with holding
> good, old-fashioned elections!?
>
> ATS: Those of us who have been watching recent developments rather than
> just popping in occasionally are aware that we did hold elections for these
> positions, but there was no centuria praerogativa chosen in advance, and there
> were considerable problems about the start date for the elections as well as
> other matters, such as the auspices. Surely you, as an augur (for life, I
> take it) would not want something as serious as an election to take place
> without proper auspices. We have had a Keystone Kops operation of vetoes and
> problems concerning auspices which did not suit one or another of our
> magistrates.
>
>
> Again, I must ask; will the functioning
> of the Res Publica come to a grinding halt without a Praetor in office?
>
> ATS: Maybe not, but we do need some authority, and the consul does not
> wish to continue as acting praetor. One job is enough.
>
>
> Where are these appointees to come from? If they are willing, why don't
> they just run for the office?
>
> ATS: We had five candidates. We had an election, which, like most
> government functions of late, was clouded. The Senate must meet in normal
> session to deal with this issue, and several others.
>
> If they are not, why would we possibly
> want them to be appointed in the first place? Appointment by a dictator
> is not objectively "better" than even an unopposed election. Why do we
> need a Dictator to do this?
>
> ATS: The Senate must meet to deal with this issue. We don¹t need a
> dictator for it, nor did I say that we did...IF the consules and the augures
> would kindly get together on pleasant terms and allow us to have a normal
> Senate session, free of complaints about the auspices and free from vetoes.
> That is all we ask.
>
> I don't think it's an unreasonable request to ask for a detailed
> explanation of why, exactly, we need a Dictator to be appointed now,
> with particular attention raised to what problems a Dictator can solve
> that the regular process cannot at the present time.
>
> ATS: No, but when the consules constantly veto one another¹s Senate calls
> and / or agenda items, and the auspices are clouded for both elections and
> Senate sessions, perhaps some adult supervision is needed to get everyone to
> work together. There are important items which should be discussed in a
> normal Senate session. Is it too much to ask for that?
>
> Incidentally, I believe that Cato was the first, or among the first, to
> ask for just that...a NORMAL Senate session unclouded by vetoes and problems
> about the auspices. Several of us have joined in, but cooperation has not yet
> been secured.
>
>
>
> "Get rid of obstructionist citizens who keep us from implementing our
> agenda" is not, of course, a valid reason (although I'm sure there are
> some on that side of the argument who might think otherwise, and indeed
> the chief among them has already stated so publicly).
>
> Vale,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus
> Pater Patriae
>
>
> Vale, et valete.
>
>
>
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica wrote:
>>> >> ATS: As you are well aware, Marine, several of us have called for a
>>> >> proper meeting of the Senate in chambers. We must deal with a number of
>>> >> urgent matters, including the entry date of the tribunes into office, the
IT
>>> >> issue, the appointment of praetores or some other means of filling this
>>> and
>>> >> other offices, the means of voting in our next main election, and, yes,
>>> the
>>> >> dictatura.
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 78990 From: Vedius Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: Re: Recent events
A. Tullia Scholastica wrote:

> The date on which tribunes take office is an "urgent matter"?
>
> ATS: Funny, but I don¹t recall saying that.

Really? Allow me to refresh your memory on this particular subject:
message number 78980 from the list archives, posted at 8:02 PM today
(7/31/2010):

"We must deal with a number of urgent matters, including the entry date of the tribunes into office..."

Did you really think I just made that up out of nowhere? How desperate are you people to just trash anyone who dares to disagree with you? You should be ashamed.

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus
Pater Patriae
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 78991 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: Re: Recent events
C. Petronius Fl. Vedio P.P. s.p.d.,

> > The date on which tribunes take office is an "urgent matter"?

It is not an urgent matter, but it has to be resolved.

1-) The Constitution gives Tribunes:
a) as ordinarius magistrate to entry in function on January 1st.
b) a yearly term.

2-) But, in fact, since 4 years the Tribunes and the Plebeian aediles take their function on December 10th, according to the mos maiorum.
The last 5 tribunes have taken their office on December 10th 2762 and have a yearly term oftheir function.

So, as it is not good for Plebs and any citizen, as recent events have shown, to have no defenders between december 10th, the end of the yearly term, and January 1st the Constitutional date on which ordinarii magistrates take their office, so, it seemmed to me more simple and more efficient to make a little change into the Constitution, instead of forcing the Senate to issue each year a SCU giving December 10th as date on which tribunes and Plebeian ediles may take their office. A little change crystal clear without traps nor secret or ambiguous motives.

Here the proposition:
Correction of the Constitution IV, a:
"Elections of the ordinarii shall take place no later than December 15th, and newly-elected officials shall assume their offices on January 1st."

To

Lex de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis.

"Elections of the ordinarii shall take place no later than December 1st, and newly-elected officials shall assume their offices on January 1st, except Plebeian ediles and tribunes of the Plebs who shall assume their offices on December 10th."

Simple and efficient.

That is not urgent nor, indeed, needs a dictator, but this proposition must pass by a vote in the Comitia Centuriata and later approve by 2/3 senators, and now it is August 1st and voting system does not work...

Optime vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Tribunus Plebis Arcoiali scribebat
Kalendis Sextilibus P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 78992 From: Vedius Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: Re: Recent events
petronius_dexter wrote:
> That is not urgent nor, indeed, needs a dictator,

Thank you for making my point so poignantly, my good friend. "It would
be convenient" is not an excuse to appoint a Dictator.

vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus
Pater Patriae
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 78993 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: Re: Recent events
>
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica Flavio Vedio Germanico quiritibus bonae voluntatis
> S.P.D.
>
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica wrote:
>
>> > The date on which tribunes take office is an "urgent matter"?
>> >
>> > ATS: Funny, but I don¹t recall saying that.
>
> Really? Allow me to refresh your memory on this particular subject:
> message number 78980 from the list archives, posted at 8:02 PM today
> (7/31/2010):
>
> "We must deal with a number of urgent matters, including the entry date of the
> tribunes into office..."
>
> Did you really think I just made that up out of nowhere? How desperate are you
> people to just trash anyone who dares to disagree with you? You should be
> ashamed.
>
>
> ATS2: My memory is reasonably good, and I did indeed write that.
> However, there seems to be some misunderstanding. The date of tribune entry
> into office is the first, and least controversial, item on the Senate agenda.
> It is sufficiently important that it was put on the agenda, but less urgent
> than some of the other items there. Like everything else on the agenda of
> these two sessions, it must be discussed in a normal session, without power
> plays from the sacerdotal or the consular side. Period.
>
> I am not one of you people. I am not trashing you or anyone, or
> disagreeing with you. I am pointing out that things are not quite what you
> thought, perhaps because you may not have been keeping your finger on the
> racing pulses here. That is a rather difficult thing for anyone who has
> actual work to do, as some here clearly do not. I am taking a short break
> from preparing the 101 lessons, 202 translations of lessons, multiple sound
> files, 15 lesson blocks, etc., etc., for new students in the Combined Sermo
> class. You may recall that I taught you how to pronounce your Roman name. I
> teach five university-level courses for free, and have nothing to be ashamed
> of. Insulting someone, and being sarcastic, however, should merit some shame,
> though that concept is quite alien in certain quarters here and elsewhere.
>
> Vale,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus
> Pater Patriae
>
> Valete.
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 78994 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: KALENDAE SEXTILIAE: Victoria, Spes Bona, Victoria Virgo
M. Moravius Piscinus cultoribus Deorum et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit: Spes Bona nos complectatur dulce.

Hodie est Kalendae Sextiliae; haec dies fastus est: Natalis Spes Bona; Victoriae in Palatino; feriae Cereri; feriae ex senatus consulto quod eo die Imperator Caesar divi filius rem publicam tristissimo periculo liberat; Feriae ex senatus consulto quod eo die ab Imperatore Caesare Augusto pontifice maximo Caius Caesar princeps iuventutis ad provincias transmarinas ordinandas missus est

AUC 459 / 294 BCE: Dedication of the Temple of Victoria on the Palatine Hill.

"[Events] compelled the other consul, L. Postumius, to leave the City before his health was quite re-established. He issued a general order for his men to assemble at Sora, and previous to his departure he dedicated the temple to Victory which he had, when curule aedile, built out of the proceeds of fines." ~ Titus Livius 10.33.9

AUC 495 / 258 BCE: Dedication of the Temple of Spes in the Forum Holitorius by M. Attilius Calatinus.

The image of Spes, as She is depicted on Roman coins, is that of a young girl of about fourteen years of age, who dons the dress of an adult woman for the first time, holding up the hem of Her skirt by Her left hand, and holding out a flower or a bird with Her right hand. She represents new beginnings and fresh anticipation of better things to come with new beginnings. Thus She is not a Goddess of Hope in any sense of longing. Such a kind of hope was thought by philosophers to be the greatest of evil remaining in Pandora's box. Spes instead represents fresh enthusiasm. On imperial coinage, after the Diocletian reform, She appears with the appointment of each new Caesar.

"Spes Bona, please hear my prayer and lend me Your aid; help me out of my misfortunes." ~ Plautus, Rudens 231-32

AUC 560 / 193 BCE: Dedication of the sacullum of Victoria Virgo on the Palatine Hill.

"During this time, M. Porcius Cato dedicated the chapel of Victoria Virgo near the temple of Victory, which he had vowed two years previously." ~ Titus Livius 35.9.6


AUC 743 / 10 BCE: Birth of the future emperor Claudius.

"The father of Claudius Caesar, Drusus, who at first had the forename Decimus and later that of Nero, was born of Livia within three months after her marriage to Augustus (for she was with child at the time) and there was a suspicion that he was begotten by his stepfather in adulterous intercourse. . . . Drusus, while holding the offices of quaestor and praetor, was in charge of the war in Raetia and later of that in Germany. He was the first of Roman generals to sail the northern Ocean, and beyond the Rhine with prodigious labor he constructed the huge canals which to this very day are called by his name. Even after he had defeated the enemy in many battles and driven them far into the wilds of the interior, he did not cease his pursuit until the apparition of a barbarian woman of greater than p5human size, speaking in the Latin tongue, forbade him to push his victory further. For these exploits he received the honor of an ovation with the triumphal regalia; and immediately after his praetorship he became consul and resumed his campaign, but died in his summer camp, which for that reason was given the name of 'Accursed' (Scelerata).

"Claudius was born at Lugdunum on the Kalends of Augustus in the consulship of Iullus Antonius and Fabius Africanus, the very day when an altar was first dedicated to Augustus in that town, and he received the name of Tiberius Claudius Drusus. Later, on the adoption of his elder brother into the Julian family, he took the surname Germanicus. He lost his father when he was still an infant, and throughout almost the whole course of his childhood and youth he suffered so severely from various obstinate disorders that the vigour of both his mind and his body was dulled, and even when he reached the proper age he was not thought capable of any public or private business." ~ Suetonius, Claudius 1.1 - 2.1


AUC 879 / 126 CE: Birth of the future emperor Pertinax

"Publius Helvius Pertinax was the son of a freedman, Helvius Successus by name, who confessed that he gave this name to his son because of his own long-standing connection with the timber-trade, for had conducted that business with pertinacity. Pertinax himself was born in the Apennines (Alba Pompeia, Liguria) on an estate which belonged to his mother. The hour he was born a black horse climbed to the roof, and after remaining there for a short time, fell to the ground and died. Disturbed by this occurrence, his father went to a Chaldean, and he prophesied future greatness for the boy, saying that he himself had lost his child. . . . With the aid of Lollianus Avitus, a former consul (144 CE) and his father's patron, he sought an appointment to a command in the ranks. Soon afterwards, in the reign of Titus Aurelius (Antoninus Pius), he set out for Syria as prefect of a cohort, and there, because he had used the imperial post without official letters of recommendation, he was forced by the governor of Syria to make his way from Antioch to his station on foot. Winning promotion because of the energy he showed in the Parthian war (162-166 CE), he was transferred to Britain and there retained. Later he led a squadron in Moesia, and after that he supervised the distribution of grants to the poor on the Aemilian Way. Next, he commanded the German fleet. His mother followed him all the way to Germany, and there she died, and her tomb is said to be still standing there. From this command he was transferred to Dacia at a salary of two hundred thousand sesterces, but through the machinations of certain persons he came to be distrusted by Marcus and was removed from this post; afterwards, however, through the influence of Claudius Pompeianus, the son-in law of Marcus, he was detailed to the command of detachments on the plea that he would become Pompeianus' aide (167 CE). Meeting with approval in this position, he was enrolled in the senate. Later, when he had won success in war for the second time, the plot which had been made against him was revealed, and Marcus, in order to remedy the wrong he had done him, raised him to the rank of praetor and put him in command of Legio I Adiutrix, whereupon Pertinax straightway rescued Raetia and Noricum from the enemy. Because of his conspicuous prowess in this campaign he was appointed, on the recommendation of Marcus, to the consulship." ~ Historia Augustae, Pertinex 1-2.6


Our thought of the day is taken from Demophilus 4.

"When you deliberate whether or not you shall injure another, you will previously suffer the evil yourself which you intend to commit. But neither must you expect any good from the evil; for the manners of everyone are correspondent to his life and actions. Every soul too is a repository, that which is good, of things good, that which is evil, of things depraved."
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 78995 From: Cato Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: Re: Witness Statement from L. Livia Plauta
Cato Liviae sal.

Don't play stupid, Livia. Not "each of [your] posts" is a solemn oath. In this particular instance I wanted to know if you did it out of fear of reprisal or if you did it freely.

Apparently you did it freely.

Vale,

Cato



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Livia Plauta" <livia.plauta@...> wrote:
>
> Livia Catoni sal.
>
> Sorry, but I'm not about to post a message after each of my posts saying
> that the previous post was made of my own free will. It would be a bit
> redundant, wouldn't it?
>
> Optime vale,
> Livia
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cato" <catoinnyc@>
> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 1:29 AM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Witness Statement from L. Livia Plauta
>
>
> Cato Liviae Plautae sal.
>
> Do you do so fully of your own free will, knowingly and purposefully,
> understanding that the Senate actions which have brought you to this point
> are considered illegal and vacated, contrary to the Constitution of the
> Respublica?
>
> I just want to make absolutely sure, and I'd like to see it in writing, from
> you.
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Livia Plauta" <livia.plauta@>
> wrote:
> >
> > I, L. Livia Plauta, as a Lictrix of Nova Roma, hereby witness the
> > appointment of Gnaeus Equitius Marinus as Magister Populi et Dictor of
> > Nova
> > Roma. As a member of the Comitia Curiata I wish him good fortune in his
> > office and in his work on behalf of the Religio Romana.
> >
> >
> >
> > Ego, L. Livia Plauta, lictrix curiata Novae Romae testificor Cn. Equitium
> > Marinum Magistrum Populi et Dictatorem Novae Romae creari. Lictrix
> > Comitiorum Curiatorum ei opto ut pro religione Romana felicissime officio
> > munereque suo fungatur.
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 78996 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: Re: The Current Situation
M. Moravius Piscinus Pontifex Maximus Quiritbus cultoribus Deorum et omnibus s. p. d.

Speculations, rumors, falsehoods, and pure delusion on the part of a few people does not alter the facts.

- The Senate legally assembled with a quorum and appointed Cn. Marinus as Magister Populi et dictator by majority vote.

- A veto by Consul P. Memmius was overruled by four of the five Tribuni Plebis.

- The Comitia Curiata is assembled, is posting witness statements, and will pass a Lex Curiata de imperio in due time to install Cn. Marinus with imperium to take office.

- Petitiones actiones are being prepared against those who have plotted against the Collegia and the Res Publica.

- Consul P. Memmius attempted to reassemble the Senate without proper auspicia and in violation of Decreta Augurum and Decreta Pontificum. He did not meet quorum, and is thereby unable to attain a majority vote on any of his proposals. Therefore should he attempt to post the SCU of his rump Senate, it will be vetoed by Consul Fabius and the Tribuni Plebis, and declared vitiated by the Collegium Augurum.

The most important fact is that the majority of Senate, and therefore the majority of the Board of Directors of NR, Inc., retains control of all of NR, Inc. assets - website, domains, bank accounts, and trademarks. The law of the State of Maine on Non-Profit Corporations protects the corporations against the claims of a few dissident members and former members.

The "abortive attempt at a coup" was one of those schemes by Sulla, Fabius Maximus, Valerianus, Metellus and others to depose elected and adlected officials. They were not discussing politics, campaigning in elections, and legally attaining magisterial positions. Instead they spoke of deposing officials by bringing back former officials and declaring them the "true this or that." Utter silliness on their part. What they proposed would cause a schism by which non-practitioners of the Religio Romana like Sulla, Cato, and Vedius would recognize Cassius as the "true pope" and not recognize those Sacerdotes who have been adlected to the Collegium Pontificum by cultores Deorum. And this would come, according to their discussions, with Galerius' plan to purge the Senate of their opponents; that is, they thought a minority could expel the majority of the Senate. Their plans were just so totally laughable.

Their biggest delusion, though, is that they see themselves as somehow significant enough for the majority of the Senate to have appointed a dictator to deal with them. These little boys still think of Nova Roma as their private little boys club where they can play like they do on the Back Alley. To them Nova Roma is a RPG played on lists like this one. They do not realize that NR, Inc is a corporation and will be run like a corporation to carry out real world events as the one now taking place in Poltava, and real world projects, and offering real world scholaships to students at accredited universities (not online rip-offs, Sulla). The next step has already begun; this is the project approved by the majority to completely overhaul our website with advanced programs. As for these few "dissidents" on our lists, they are unimportant, insignificant, and childishly delusional in thinking otherwise.



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robert Woolwine <robert.woolwine@...> wrote:
>
> Actually, I tend to believe it has to do with the abortive attempt of
> extortion by Piscinus to Cato and I because Piscinus felt we were the key
> proponents that blocked the "religious reforms" of the constitution. That
> failure forced Piscinus to resort to extortion, which failed to. And now
> they have sunk so low to manufacture this tempest in a tea cup.
>
> Vale,
>
> Sulla
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 78997 From: Cato Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: Re: The Current Situation
Cato Piscino omnibusque in foro SPD

That the actions of 19-26 July did not constitute a legal session of the Senate is, by now, overwhelmingly clear to all but the most stubborn and intractable among us. The rest of us are actually doing something to try to help bring this whole mess to a close.

Fighting a losing battle is never pretty but Piscinus, you are now making such a spectacle of yourself that I have to wonder if there is a keyboard anywhere in the Respublica that does not have coffee laughed onto it.

But carry on! Humor is always a good way to start off a morning - and a new month!

Valete,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 78998 From: octaviusgracchus Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: Re: The Current Situation
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "marcushoratius" <MHoratius@...>
wrote:

> Speculations, rumors, falsehoods, and pure delusion on the part of a
few people does not alter the facts.

The squatter in the seats of two priests who had been appointed "for
life" is in no position to lecture anyone about delusion.

> - The Senate legally assembled with a quorum and appointed Cn. Marinus
as Magister Populi et dictator by majority vote.

If a dictator has been legally appointed, then WHERE IS THE DICTATOR?

The so-called dictator himself disagrees with you on the legality of
this appointment. Shall we chalk this up to "delusion" as well?

> - Petitiones actiones are being prepared against those who have
plotted against the Collegia and the Res Publica.

Better get your defense in order then, O Arch-Conspirator, Despoiler of
the Collegia, Polluter of the Name of Pontifex Maximus, Pretender to the
Throne, Traitor to the Republic.

> - Consul P. Memmius attempted to reassemble the Senate without proper
auspicia

Only because the false augures, through outright refusal and dereliction
of duty, refused to provide these.

You're just causing one crisis after another, then trying to blame
everyone but yourself.

> The most important fact is that the majority of Senate, and therefore
the majority of the Board of Directors of NR, Inc., retains control of
all of NR, Inc. assets - website, domains, bank accounts, and
trademarks.

All the trademarks and domains and web site of Nova Roma, plus four
bucks, will get you a latte at Starbucks (fifty cents extra if you want
soy milk).

The name "Nova Roma" and anything to do with it are now considered
anathema in reenactment, religious, and academic circles. And you think
a dictatorship is going to reverse that?

Hint: if the dictatorship comes to pass there just might be lots of blog
entries, on domains you don't control, that lay out exactly how it came
to pass. What happens to Nova Roma's reputation then?

> Utter silliness on their part. What they proposed would cause a
schism by which non-practitioners of the Religio Romana like Sulla,
Cato, and Vedius would recognize Cassius as the "true pope" and not
recognize those Sacerdotes who have been adlected to the Collegium
Pontificum by cultores Deorum.

So?

Schisms happen in religions all the time.

Do you really think your claim to be Pope is stronger than Cassius's,
because some CORPORATION says so?

I've got a news flash for you - in the country you and I live in, the
majority of people call themselves PROTESTANTS. Their ancestors nailed
a list of grievances to a door and turned their backs on a wicked Pope
and corrupt hierarchy. Five hundred years later they *still* aren't
willing to kowtow to the person who claims to be in charge.

But I guess Protestantism is invalid in your eyes too, because it goes
against what the almighty Corporation has decreed.

> They do not realize that NR, Inc is a corporation and will be run like
a corporation to carry out real world events as the one now taking place
in Poltava, and real world projects, and offering real world scholaships
to students at accredited universities (not online rip-offs, Sulla).

Wow, *scholarships*! I guess that makes you *legitimate* then, you've
collected some cash and then mailed it somewhere.

(just like the BackAlley did last week).

You, by your evil actions, have caused a schism in the Religio Romana.

There was no schism before you deposed Cassius and Cincinnatus from
positions to which they had been appointed for life, and then slithered
into their seats while the bodies were still warm.

Call Protestants childish and delusional all you want, all that does is
ensure that there will be no peace while you remain squatting on the
throne.

The only way the Religio Romana will be healed, and the schism repaired,
is if you are deposed and your name stricken from the records.

I hope that the Dictator will have the courage to do what is right.

M. Octavius Gracchus,
Consular in Exile.
No peace while the false pope remains.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 78999 From: deciusiunius Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: Re: The Current Situation
Decius Iunius Palladius M. Horatio s.d.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "marcushoratius" <MHoratius@...>

> The "abortive attempt at a coup" was one of those schemes by Sulla, >Fabius Maximus, Valerianus, Metellus and others to depose elected >and adlected officials.

No, as seen by the recently vetoed attempt to convene the Senate to appoint a dictator and your attempt to convene the Comitia Curiata to support this, the abortive coup was instigated by you. Since your return to Nova Roma you have done much to damage the fabric of our common society. What I can't figure out is if you thought you were doing the right thing over the last few years or if the harm is deliberate. Either way the harm is done.


>Their biggest delusion, though, is that they see themselves as >somehow significant enough for the majority of the Senate to have >appointed a dictator to deal with them. These little boys still >think of Nova Roma as their private little boys club where they can >play like they do on the Back Alley. To them Nova Roma is a RPG >played on lists like this one. They do not realize that NR, Inc is >a corporation and will be run like a corporation to carry out real >world events as the one now taking place in Poltava, and real world >projects, and offering real world scholaships to students at >accredited universities (not online rip-offs, Sulla).

You don't believe that at all. A corporation? Remind me not to be part of a corporation run by you, you who have contrived a crisis by deliberately throwing roadblocks in the way of the proper operation of the government and then present the solution in the form of a dictatorship. I give you credit for a well-thought out plan over time to invent this "crisis" and resolution but condemn the harm your cleverness has done to Nova Roma.

Vale,


Palladius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79000 From: Timothy or Stephen Gallagher Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: FW: [Explorator] explorator 13.15
Salvete

FYI

Valete

Ti. Galerius Paulinus



To: explorator@yahoogroups.com; BRITARCH@...
From: rogueclassicist@...
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 10:13:12 -0400
Subject: [Explorator] explorator 13.15






================================================================
explorator 13.15 August 1, 2010
================================================================
Editor's note: Most urls should be active for at least eight
hours from the time of publication.

For your computer's protection, Explorator is sent in plain text
and NEVER has attachments. Be suspicious of any Explorator which
arrives otherwise!!!
================================================================
================================================================
Thanks to Arthur Shippee, Dave Sowdon, David Critchley,
Donna Hurst, Edward Rockstein, Matthew McCallum, Rick Heli,
Hernan Astudillo, Richard Campbell, John McMahon, Barnea Selavan,
Joseph Lauer,Mike Ruggeri,Rochelle Altman, Rick Pettigrew, Catherine,
and Ross W. Sargent for headses upses this week (as always
hoping I have left no one out).

n.b. I'm not sure of my internet access for the next couple of weeks;
Explorator may
be delayed ...
================================================================
EARLY HUMANS
================================================================
Digging at a homo erectus site abandoned because of WWII:

http://www.dailyiowan.com/2010/07/29/Metro/18204.html
http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100728/full/news.2010.377.html

Another Homo antecessor cranium from Atapuerca:

http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_26868.shtml

How humans survived the Ice Age:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1297765/Last-humans-Earth-survived-Ice-Age-sheltering-Garden-Eden-claim-scientists.html

Apparently Otzi's 'secrets' are about to be revealed:

http://www.alphagalileo.org/ViewItem.aspx?ItemId=81986&CultureCode=en
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/07/100727065647.htm
================================================================
AFRICA
================================================================
Searching for a Ming shipwreck off Kenya:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-10761840
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/25/kenya-china

cf:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-10767321
================================================================
ANCIENT NEAR EAST AND EGYPT
================================================================
A 5000 y.b.p. "statuette" from Sidon:

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=1&article_id=117518

... similarly-dated 'black clay' pottery from Daraa:

http://www.english.globalarabnetwork.com/201007246659/Related-news-from-Syria/5000-years-old-archaeological-pottery-craft-unearthed-in-syria.html

More from the Ottawa Citizen's Tal Tayimat coverage, focusing on the
tech side of things:

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/technology/High+tech+methods+reveal+secrets+antiquity/3337692/story.html

... this one's a bit more conventional:

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/life/Layer+layer+exposes+deeper+truths/3347936/story.html

... while the DSS underwent some high tech scanning at UMinn:

http://www.minnpost.com/scientificagenda/2010/07/28/20059/high-tech_test_of_dead_sea_scrolls_under_way_at_science_museum_of_minnesota

... and the DSS authorship question was in the news again (hype for a
documentary):

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/07/100727-who-wrote-dead-sea-scrolls-bible-science-tv/

cf:

http://zwingliusredivivus.wordpress.com/2010/07/27/live-blogging-writing-the-dead-sea-scrolls/
http://robertcargill.com/2010/07/09/writing-the-dead-sea-scrolls/
http://robertcargill.com/2010/07/22/more-on-writing-the-dead-sea-scrolls/
http://robertcargill.com/2010/07/27/writing-the-dead-sea-scrolls-airs-on-national-geographic-channel-some-reflections/
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/episode/writing-the-dead-sea-scrolls-5179

... while analysis gives more evidence for local production of the
parchment:

https://mail.google.com/mail/?hl=en&shva=1#label/4explorator/12a10fd7ce06f123

... and there's a feature on the WSRP's work on the DSS:

http://college.usc.edu/news/stories/724/let-there-be-light/

A Philistine temple from Gath:

http://www.jpost.com/Features/InThespotlight/Article.aspx?id=182962

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/138843
http://www.newkerala.com/news2/fullnews-10735.html

A cistern/reservoir from Ramat Rahel:

http://www.tau.ac.il/~rmtrachl/cave.htm

A 'hammurabi-like' fragment found at Hazor:

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/hammurabi-like-cuneiform-discovered-at-tel-hazor-1.304266
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/138788
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-07-26/archaeologists-discover-ancient-hammurabi-like-law-code-in-northern-israel.html

Herod has lost credit for a couple of items:

http://www.haaretz.com/magazine/week-s-end/revelations-of-an-ever-changing-past-1.304993

They're digging up Shiloh:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/news.aspx/138836

Not sure what to think of this story of a 3000 y.b.p. tumulus in Turkey
being
paved over during road construction:

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=3-000-year-old-tumulus-asphalted-2010-07-27

Nice series on the Dura Europos frescoes/murals:

http://www.jewishpress.com/pageroute.do/44249 (Posted June 23, 2010)
http://www.jewishpress.com/pageroute.do/44437 (Posted July 7, 2010)
http://www.jewishpress.com/pageroute.do/44593 (Posted July 21, 2010)

Concerns about Waqf bulldozers again:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/138823

Interview with Rami Arav about Bethsaida and related matters:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/News.aspx/2410

More on restoring the 'Marsh Arabs' in Iraq:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,709180,00.html
Egyptology News Blog:

http://egyptology.blogspot.com/

Egyptology Blog:

http://www.egyptologyblog.co.uk/

Dr Leen Ritmeyer's Blog:

http://blog.ritmeyer.com/

Paleojudaica:

http://paleojudaica.blogspot.com/

Persepolis Fortification Archives:

http://persepolistablets.blogspot.com/

Archaeologist at Large:

http://spaces.msn.com/members/ArchaeologyinEgypt/
================================================================
ANCIENT GREECE AND ROME (AND CLASSICS)
================================================================
Assorted 2400 y.b.p. warrior implements (etc.) from an Iberian site:

http://www.artdaily.org/index.asp?int_sec=2&int_new=39557
http://www.barcelonareporter.com/index.php?/news/comments/archaeology_2400-year-old_weapons_and_tools_in_valencia_spain_4th_century_b/2907100422am

Roman burial from Chichester:

http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/8304606.Roman_age_skeleton_dug_up_in_Chichester/

In the wake of the Frome Hoard discovery, a feature on Carausius:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/archaeology/ahead-of-his-time-carausius-was-a-pirate-a-rebel-and-the-first-ruler-of-a-unified-britain-2039008.html

An 1800 years b.p. 'personal care kit':

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=1800-years-old-care-set-was-found-2010-07-28

A jade sculpture from Viminacium:

http://english.blic.rs/Culture-Showbiz/6716/Jade-sculpture-found-at-amphitheatre

Evidence of a second Roman fort at Exeter:

http://www.thisisexeter.co.uk/news/City-site-yields-evidence-second-Roman-fort/article-2468199-detail/article.html

Yet another Roman site from Wales (near Brynsiencyn):

http://www.theonlinemail.co.uk/bangor-and-anglesey-news/local-bangor-and-anglesey-news/2010/07/28/excavation-of-roman-site-near-brynsiencyn-66580-26935484/

A student experience in the Agora excavations:

http://www.udel.edu/udaily/2011/jul/barnesgordon072810.html

I don't think I mentioned this gold 'pestle' find from Cornwall (although I
don't
buy the Daily Mail's spin either):

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1297131/Golden-bulls-horn-pestle-used-mix-Roman-Viagra.html

Adding to the collection of relics of John the Baptist ... this time from
Sozopol:

http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=118622
http://www.sofiaecho.com/2010/07/28/939118_archaeology-excavations-on-st-ivan-island-reveal-potential-relics-from-john-the-baptist
Plans to restore Eastgate Roman Tower (Lincoln):

http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/lincolnshire/hi/people_and_places/history/newsid_8858000/8858490.stm

We had hints of this a few months ago ... Italy is turning to the private
sector to fix up the Colosseum:

http://www.artdaily.org/index.asp?int_sec=2&int_new=39587
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/7919005/Rome-advertises-Colosseum-to-sponsors.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/romes-colosseum-needs-25-million-euro-facelift-officials-2040549.html
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jJoBVAoe6RyMWmhZBzLtvIMF_kNg
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/28/AR2010072802896.html
http://www.cbc.ca/arts/artdesign/story/2010/07/28/colosseum-private-sponsors.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/28/colosseum-restoration-ita_n_662453.html
http://in.reuters.com/article/idINIndia-50468620100728
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20100728/tsc-uk-italy-colosseum-011ccfa.html
http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/colosseum-needs-costly-facelift-officials-20100729-10wtp.html
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gPjzXoN-MJhB1aV5e3_UeyO4h0xgD9H8NOO80
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38466271/ns/travel-destination_travel/

Some mosaics have been exposed at Chedworth Roman Villa:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/gloucestershire/hi/people_and_places/history/newsid_8856000/8856244.stm

Nice feature about Graffiti in Pompeii:

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/Reading-the-Writing-on-Pompeiis-Walls.html
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/99324199.html

An interview with Prudence Jones about that Cleopatra Pearl thing:

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/sciencefair/post/2010/07/q--a-classicist-prudence-jones-on-cleopatras-pearl-cocktail/1

The working paper behind that 'poison Styx'/Alexander story:

http://www.princeton.edu/~pswpc/pdfs/mayor/071001.pdf

Mary Beard (and others) becomes an FBA:

http://www.cambridgenetwork.co.uk/news/article/default.aspx?objid=72776

... and a podcast from a lecture series on Alexander by Robin Lane Fox:

http://www.learnoutloud.com/Catalog/History/Ancient-and-Medieval-History/Evaluating-Alexander-the-Great/36760

Greek in inner city UK schools:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/7917191/Ancient-Greek-to-be-taught-in-state-schools.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1298787/Ancient-Greek-introduced-13-schools-Oxford.html?ITO=1490

... and you can vote on whether it's a good idea:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/poll/2010/jul/30/language-schooladmissions

... and if you're pondering doing Classics in the uK (and elsewhere, I
suppose):

http://www.independent.co.uk/student/into-university/az-degrees/classics-and-classical-civilisation-556502.html

Semi silly thing on Roman 'pleasures':

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1297867/When-comes-sex-pleasure-celebrity-similar-Romans--shame-dont-sense-duty.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

More on that Roman villa from Aberystwyth:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/7910534/Roman-villa-found-in-Welsh-military-zone.html
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2010/07/27/dig-finds-romans-just-couldn-t-bear-to-leave-91466-26936594/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-mid-wales-10753974
More on those shipwrecks off Zannone:

http://www.artdaily.org/index.asp?int_sec=2&int_new=39489

Review of Annabel Lyon, *The Golden Mean*:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128878830

Review of Adrian Goldsworthy, *Antony and Cleopatra*:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/books/article-1297819/THE-UGLY-TRUTH-ABOUT-CLEOPATRA-Ambitious-devious-ruthless-seduced-Caesar-powerful-woman-ancient-world--But-new-book-reveals-Liz-Taylor-ANTONY--CLEOPATRA-BY-ADRIAN-GOLDSWORTHY.html

Review of Ferdinand Mount, *Full Circle*:

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/reviews/full-circle-how-the-classical-world-came-back-to-us-by-ferdinand-mount-2038672.html

Review of Anne Carson, *Nox*:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/bookreviews/7916439/Nox-by-Anne-Carson-Review.html

Review of Allan Massie, *Hero of Rome*:

http://news.scotsman.com/entertainment/Book-review-Hero-of-Rome.6450046.jp
Latest reviews from Scholia:

http://www.classics.ukzn.ac.za/reviews/

Latest reviews from BMCR:

http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/recent.html

Visit our blog:

http://rogueclassicism.com/
================================================================
EUROPE AND THE UK (+ Ireland)
================================================================
In case you're not tired of the submerged champagne story yet:

http://www.sunherald.com/2010/07/27/2362252/deep-sea-preserves-champagne.html

That stone-age-axe-in-an-iron-age-grave-in-Norway story is making the rounds
again:

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2010-07/uos-ttm072910.php

A neolithic site from Shoumen (Bulgaria):

http://www.sofiaecho.com/2010/07/26/937763_archaeology-7000-year-old-village-found-near-bulgarian-town-of-shoumen

Assorted rescue digs going on along the Greece-Bulgaria border:

http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=118576

A Napoleonic warship's log has been restored:

http://www.physorg.com/news199715402.html

... and they've started restoration work on the Osmington White Horse:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-10758714

More on Marden Henge:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/jul/28/marden-henge-builders-yard-stonehenge
Archaeology in Europe Blog:

http://archaeology-in-europe.blogspot.com/

================================================================
ASIA AND THE SOUTH PACIFIC
================================================================
Some 1000 b.p. (or thereabouts) coffins from Phee Man Cave:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/08/01/national/Ancient-skeletons-30134983.html

Latest video at the Archaeology Channel is about the Khumi people:

http://www.archaeologychannel.org/

On the origins of Australia's marsupials:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-10774536

East Asian Archaeology:

http://eastasiablog.wordpress.com/2010/05/20/east-asian-archaeology-cultural-heritage-%E2%80%93-2052010/

Southeast Asian Archaeology Newsblog:

http://www.southeastasianarchaeology.com/

New Zealand Archaeology eNews:

http://www.nzarchaeology.org/netsubnews.htm
================================================================
NORTH AMERICA
================================================================
A ca 500 years b.p. burial from Ocala National Forest:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/07/28/florida.centuries.old.bones/index.html?section=cnn_latest
http://www.wftv.com/news/24411862/detail.html
http://www.gainesville.com/article/20100727/articles/100729523&tc=yahoo

Excavation of an apparently-major Mississippian site in Illinois:

http://www.pjstar.com/features/x1070618681/900-year-old-figurine-uncovered-in-Illinois

A timber circle near Fort Ancient was aligned to the Solstice etc.:

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/AB/20100731/NEWS01/8010321/

Proving that politics and archaeology don't just mix in Israel, the
discovery of
the wreck of the Investigator is being used to boost Canada's claims of
sovereignty to the Northwest Passage:

http://www.nunatsiaqonline.ca/stories/article/280710_Shipwreck_discovery_boosts_sovereignty_Prentice_says/
http://news.discovery.com/history/abandoned-ship-arctic.html
http://www.canada.com/technology/Canadians+discover+long+lost+ship+fundamental+Arctic+sovereignty/3329673/story.html
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-07-28/canadians-find-wreck-of-ship-that-helped-trace-northwest-passage-in-arctic.html
http://www.theage.com.au/world/1850s-shipwreck-found-20100729-10xxt.html
http://www.thewhig.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=2693552
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/29/british-north-west-passage-ship
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38459028/ns/technology_and_science-science/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-10793639
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100729/ap_on_re_ca/cn_canada_franklin_ship_found

A pair of followups to that ship-at-the-world-trade-center-site story:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bs-md-new-york-ship-20100729,0,4278324.story?track=rss
http://www.dnainfo.com/20100729/financial-district-battery-park-city/workmen-may-have-accidentally-cut-world-trade-center-boat-half

Feature on the Delaware and Raritan Canal:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/30/nyregion/30canal.html

... and Edna St Vincent Millay's Home:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/30/arts/design/30antiques.html

The Cherokee DNA project looks interesting (not sure about this one):

http://dnaconsultants.com/Cherokee/index.htm

Review of Stefanie Syman, *The Subtle Body*:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/30/books/30book.html

Review of Julie Flavell, *When London Was Capital of America*:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/books/review/Wulf-t.html
================================================================
CENTRAL AND SOUTH AMERICA
================================================================
Remains of 79 burials dating back to the 7th century from the Kuelap
fortress (Peru):

http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=361422&CategoryId=14095
http://www.andina.com.pe/Ingles/Noticia.aspx?id=O6v8woQFMo0=
http://peru21.pe/noticia/615503/hallan-79-cuerpos-murallas-kuelap

Latest finds associated with the Chachapoyan civilization (related to the
above):

http://enperublog.com/2010/07/26/klaus-koschmieder-latest-chachapoyan-discoveries/

I could swear we've had this maya blue story a couple of times in the
past five or so years:

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/07/27/x-ray-study-reveals-secrets-ancient-mayan-technology/
http://www.newkerala.com/news2/fullnews-11362.html

A Maya shell-and-bead 'tapestry' has been restored:

http://dti.inah.gob.mx/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogsection&id=39&Itemid=150

More on that Maya tomb from Guatemala:

http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-guatemalan-king-20100726,0,5807513.story

More on those Peruvian sacrifices:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/peru/7905792/Evidence-of-human-sacrifices-found-on-Perus-northern-coast.html
Mike Ruggeri's Ancient Americas Breaking News:

http://web.mac.com/michaelruggeri

Ancient MesoAmerica News:

http://ancient-mesoamerica-news-updates.blogspot.com/
================================================================
OTHER ITEMS OF INTEREST
================================================================
Latest animal dna domestication thing involves donkeys:

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2010-07/uof-adi072810.php
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/07/100728131717.htm
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/196318.php
http://www.csmonitor.com/Science/2010/0730/Genetic-study-uncovers-wild-ass-ancestor-of-donkey?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+feeds%2Fscience+%28Christian+Science+Monitor+%7C+Science%29

... and they're still mentioning the antiquity of the human-dog
relationship:

http://news.discovery.com/animals/oldest-dog-fossil.html
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/07/oldest_dog/

Also on the DNA front, there are apparently no 'true blood' Venetians:

http://www.ansa.it/web/notizie/rubriche/english/2010/07/27/visualizza_new.html_1876051798.html

Interesting item on Freud and Leonardo's "Virgin and Child with St Anne":

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704596504575272681406945388.html

The Vatican has decided 'The Martyrdom of St Lawrence' isn't a Caravaggio
after all:

http://www.artdaily.org/index.asp?int_sec=2&int_new=39514
http://www.artdaily.org/index.asp?int_sec=2&int_new=39527
http://www.ansa.it/web/notizie/rubriche/english/2010/07/26/visualizza_new.html_1875336064.html
http://www.ansa.it/web/notizie/rubriche/english/2010/07/27/visualizza_new.html_1876046029.html
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/07/28/DDBL1EK60P.DTL
http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/27/painting-isnt-a-caravaggio-but-still-gets-a-public-unveiling

Audubon's first published engraving of a bird has been found:

http://www.physorg.com/news199625547.html

Nice 'student account' of work in the conservation lab at Poggio Colla:

http://www.udel.edu/udaily/2011/jul/anderson072810.html

Not sure how to classify this one ... some artifacts associated with
Lawrence of Arabia:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/jordan/7917096/Tobacco-tins-from-Lawrence-of-Arabias-army-discovered.html

We usually only deal with humans in Explorator, but this giant rat fossil
from East Timor is impressive:

http://news.discovery.com/animals/giant-rat-fossil-discovered.html

More on Shackleton's booze:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/25/shackletons-whisky-headed_n_658638.html

More on Google's ancient books digitization efforts:

http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/566979/?sc=rsln

There's a history of planetary science thing in Nature:

http://www.physorg.com/news199635509.html

... and an Easter Island eclipse APOD:

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap100730.html

Saving the Leaning Tower of Pisa:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/art/architecture/7907298/Solving-the-800-year-mystery-of-Pisas-Leaning-Tower.html

They're building a medieval castle in Arkansas:

http://travel.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/travel/01headsup.html

Feature on ancient climates:

http://discovermagazine.com/photos/08-keys-to-deciphering-ancient-climates

In case you missed the Michelangelo 'Code' thing from a few weeks ago:

http://www.artdaily.org/index.asp?int_sec=2&int_new=39532

More on the restoration of 'The Gross Clinic':

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/30/arts/design/30eakins.html

Review of Geoffrey O'Brien, *The Fall of the House of Walworth*:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/books/review/Mallon-t.html

Review of Lyndall Gordon, *Lives like Loaded Guns*:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/books/review/Benfey-t.html

Review of Jane Brox, *Brilliant: The Evolution of Artificial Light*:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/books/review/Royte-t.html

================================================================
TOURISTY THINGS
================================================================
Masada:

http://www.stripes.com/military-life/israel-s-masada-where-jewish-rebels-took-a-stand-against-the-romans-1.112736

La Posta Vecchia:

http://www.time.com/time/travel/article/0,31542,2007281,00.html

Villa del Principe:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/31/arts/31iht-conway.html

UK Dorms as Bed and Breakfasts:

http://travel.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/travel/01journeys.html
================================================================
BLOGS AND PODCASTS
================================================================
About.com Archaeology:

http://archaeology.about.com/

Archaeology Briefs:

http://archaeologybriefs.blogspot.com/

Naked Archaeology Podcast:

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/podcasts/archaeology/

Taygete Atlantis excavations blogs aggregator:

http://planet.atlantides.org/taygete/

Time Machine:

http://heatherpringle.wordpress.com/

================================================================
CRIME BEAT
================================================================
A mounted Roman 'bangle' has turned up in New Zealand (this is a 'different'
crime story):

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/3974217/Ancient-Roman-bangle-handed-into-police

Rome has a major vandalism problem:

http://www.artdaily.org/index.asp?int_sec=2&int_new=39584

Vandals defaced a fourth century church in Turkey:

http://www.aina.org/news/20100714202414.htm

On using Google Earth to control looting:

http://antiquity.ac.uk/ant/084/ant0840544.htm
http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/google_earth_used_to_police_looting.php
http://www.gearthblog.com/blog/archives/2010/06/use_google_earth_to_prevent_looting.html

Another Nazi loot suit ... this time from Hungary:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/28/arts/design/28lawsuit.html
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010/07/28/us/politics/AP-US-Hungary-Looted-Art.html

Looting Matters:

http://lootingmatters.blogspot.com/

Illicit Cultural Property:

http://illicit-cultural-property.blogspot.com/
================================================================
NUMISMATICA
================================================================
A Greek coin from Rhegion is the highlight of a major upcoming auction:

http://www.coinlink.com/News/ancients/2500-year-old-greek-coin-anchors-ancient-offerings-in-heritage-boston-ana-auction/

Latest eSylum newsletter:

http://www.coinbooks.org/club_nbs_esylum_v13n30.html

Ancient Coin Collecting:

http://ancientcoincollecting.blogspot.com/

Ancient Coins:

http://classicalcoins.blogspot.com/

Coin Link:

http://www.coinlink.com/News/
================================================================
EXHIBITIONS, AUCTIONS, AND MUSEUM-RELATED
================================================================

Mummies of the World:

http://www.andina.com.pe/Ingles/Noticia.aspx?Id=Gq070SI65T8=
http://www.jsonline.com/entertainment/arts/99397139.html
http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5gj0Zg7H7PdQZC9PFP8rZZ4Uv7wNQ

Cleopatra:

http://www.denverpost.com/travel/ci_15579793
http://culturemob.com/blog/review-of-cleopatra-the-search-for-the-last-queen-of-egypt-at-the-franklin-institute

Faces of Divinity. Greenstone Maya Mosaics:

http://www.artdaily.com/index.asp?int_sec=2&int_new=39630

Tang Shipwreck:

http://www.artdaily.org/index.asp?int_sec=2&int_new=39508
http://www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNews/Singapore/Story/STIStory_558350.html
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/breaking/smithsonian-singapore-to-tour-shipwreck-treasures-99338689.html

Tut:

http://journalstar.com/entertainment/arts-and-culture/visual/article_55ae9adc-96b7-11df-987f-001cc4c002e0.html

Tut's Chariot:

http://www.artdaily.org/index.asp?int_sec=2&int_new=39498
http://www.artinfo.com/news/story/35310/king-tuts-death-chariot-wings-to-new-york/
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory?id=11249245
http://www.cnn.com/2010/TRAVEL/07/26/king.tut.chariot/
http://www.drhawass.com/blog/press-release-king-tuts-chariot-travels-new-york?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Drhawasscom-New+%28DrHawass.com+-+What%27s+new%3F+Feed%29

Spying on the Past:

http://www.boston.com/ae/theater_arts/articles/2010/07/24/spying_on_the_past_finds_art_from_high_in_the_sky/

Crusader-era Fresco:

http://www.artdaily.org/index.asp?int_sec=2&int_new=39511

Manet:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/30/arts/design/30original.html

The Yorkshire Museum is reopening after some renovations:

http://www.artdaily.org/index.asp?int_sec=2&int_new=39641
http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/york/hi/people_and_places/history/newsid_8869000/8869185.stm
http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/8303000.Yorkshire_Museum_to_reopen_after___2_million_makeover/
http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/features/8305215.Mapping_out_a_new_era/

The Louvre is involved in establishing a museum in Bethlehem:

http://www.isria.com/pages/30_July_2010_83.php
http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=303636

Opeddish thing on works of art as 'trophies':

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703294904575385503830483936.html

Latest on the Lewis Chessmen (and other items of this variety ... opeddish):

http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/guest-commentary/time-to-put-treasures-on-display-where-they-belong-1.1044734
http://www.mirror.co.uk/celebs/news/2010/07/31/international-treasures-115875-22453304/

The American Museum of Natural History has an iPhone app:

http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/30/the-ascent-of-man-museum-of-natural-history-offers-a-new-iphone-app/

A History of the World (BM)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ahistoryoftheworld/explorerflash/

================================================================
PERFORMANCES AND THEATRE-RELATED
================================================================
Agora:

http://www.denverpost.com/movies_old/ci_15625240?source=rss
http://www.startribune.com/entertainment/movies/99557169.html

Merchant of Venice:

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010/07/26/arts/AP-US-Theater-Pacino.html

Maria di Rohan:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/27/arts/music/27caramoor.html

Twelfth Night:

http://theater.nytimes.com/2010/07/30/theater/reviews/30twelfth.html

West African:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/27/arts/music/27kouyate.html

Problems for Mel Gibson's Viking flick:

http://www.examiner.com/x-21058-Cleveland-Celebrity-Headlines-Examiner~y2010m7d28-Leonardo-DiCaprio-quits-Mel-Gibson-directed-movie

Performing on an old piana:

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/25/a-19th-century-piano-is-so-square-its-cool/
================================================================
OBITUARIES
================================================================
John William Wevers:

http://v1.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/Deaths.20100731.93238884/BDAStory/BDA/deaths

Raymond Allchin:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/jul/28/raymond-allchin-obituary

Wye Jamison Allanbrook:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/26/arts/music/26allanbrook.html

Lawrence Boadt:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/31/books/31boadt.html
================================================================
PODCASTS
================================================================
The Book and the Spade:

http://www.radioscribe.com/bknspade.htm

The Dig:

http://www.thedigradio.com/

Stone Pages Archaeology News:

http://news.stonepages.com/

Archaeologica Audio News:

http://www.archaeologychannel.org/AudioNews.asp
================================================================
EXPLORATOR is a weekly newsletter representing the fruits of
the labours of 'media research division' of The Atrium. Various
on-line news and magazine sources are scoured for news of the
ancient world (broadly construed: practically anything relating
to archaeology or history prior to about 1700 or so is fair
game) and every Sunday they are delivered to your mailbox free of
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================================================================
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Past issues of Explorator are available on the web via our
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Explorator is Copyright (c) 2010 David Meadows. Feel free to
distribute these listings via email to your pals, students,
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links are not to be posted to any website by any means (whether
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================================================================

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79001 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: Re: [BackAlley] Re: The Current Situation
I am becoming more convinced that Piscinus wanted NR to commit suicide by
cop. In this case - get a dictator...someone who would purge, which would
STILL Be illegal per Maine law....Forcing those of us to actually defend our
rights. Marinus would then be blamed..and held personally responsible for
breaking Maine Law...And Piscinus would claim plausible denialbility.

Vale,

Sulla

On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 9:00 AM, octaviusgracchus <octaviusgracchus@...
> wrote:

>
>
>
> Salve Deci Iuni,
>
>
> > What I can't figure out is if you thought you were doing the right thing
> over the last few years or if the harm is deliberate. Either way the harm is
> done.
>
> Absolutely, I think what Piscinus did in 2007-08 to Cassius and Cincinnatus
> was revenge for the 2000-01 quarrel. It must have been festering in him all
> that time. Whether his current actions are meant to finally destroy Nova
> Roma, completing his revenge, or merely consolidate his grip on it as its
> King, I don't know.
>
> > You don't believe that at all. A corporation? Remind me not to be part of
> a corporation run by you, you who have contrived a crisis by deliberately
> throwing roadblocks in the way of the proper operation of the government and
> then present the solution in the form of a dictatorship. I give you credit
> for a well-thought out plan over time to invent this "crisis" and resolution
> but condemn the harm your cleverness has done to Nova Roma.
>
> This cannot be repeated often enough.
>
> This entire "crisis" of the last few weeks was entirely manufactured by
> Piscinus and his cronies in the so-called Collegium Augurum, who attempted
> to interfere with the actions of a Consul, by decreeing after the fact that
> something was wrong with the Consul's own auspices, and then by refusing to
> provide auspices on request, and threatening to produce a decree of impiety
> against him.
>
> Moreover, as diribitor, Piscinus refused to choose a prerogative century,
> forcing Consul Albucius to invalidate the election. The man has twisted
> every office he holds, no matter how minor, into an instrument of
> obstruction.
>
> They even deprived one of the last remaining independent voices in the
> Collegium Pontificum of a vote, for the grievous sin of *using* *rude*
> *language*, in order that he not stand in the way of their reforming the
> Collegia into the unelected supreme authority of what was once a republic.
>
> Were it not for Piscinus's deliberate obstructionism and dereliction of
> duty, both as augur and diribitor, you'd have two new praetores by now, and
> the two consuls would be conducting business as usual.
>
> And the title of "Augur" might still be one that commanded respect.
>
> This whole "crisis" is manufactured. And now, the truth has come out: the
> purpose of it is so that they can get rid of people they don't like.
>
> What has this manufactured crisis cost Nova Roma? How many people have
> unsubscribed in the last few days, likely never to return? You're about to
> lose a Tribune. You'll probably lose every Gallic member when the province
> quits en masse over the way their Consul and Tribune were mistreated and
> interfered with. You *still* have no praetors, and no way to conduct an
> election - next year's consuls, appointed without a proper election, will
> have a cloud of illegitimacy over them throughout their year.
>
> All because of this scheming manipulator who calls himself a Pontifex and
> Augur.
>
> His presence in the house that Cassius built is a blasphemy.
>
> Vale,
> M. Octavius Gracchus,
> Consular,
> Proud Peregrinus.
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79002 From: Vedius Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: Re: The Current Situation
marcushoratius wrote:
> What they proposed would cause a schism by which non-practitioners of the Religio Romana like Sulla, Cato, and Vedius would recognize Cassius as the "true pope" and not recognize those Sacerdotes who have been adlected to the Collegium Pontificum by cultores Deorum.

Just in the interests of accuracy and truthfulness (which, I realize,
means nothing to Piscinus), I am, in fact, a practitioner of the
Religio. He is welcome to come to my home and see my lararium at any time.

Vedius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79003 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: Re: The Current Situation
M. Moravius Piscinus Pontifex Maximus Quiritibus, cultoribus Deorum et omnibus s. p. d.

Here we have yet another example of the root of the problem. People who are not cultores Deorum, gentiles Romani, or who in any way practice the religio Romana try to impose their views on what is our religion.

Reading Matt below, or Octius if he prefers, one can easily see that his views are based in Christian concepts. A pontifex maximus is not a pope. Calling Cassius the true pope means nothing. Sulla calling me the anti-pope is a joke. Calling themselves "true practitioners of the Religio" is obscene.

Their "true pope," Cassius? During the so-called First Civil War, as Sulla described it in his "theoretical " plan for a civil war, "From what I recall from the first civil war was the run around (Palladius don't read into more than this than a generalization). If I recall correctly, Palladius summoned the senate with non or minimal contact with Cincinnatus at the time. Now that can be done partially here, but lets face it, it will get ugly very fast because there are guidelines spelled out in the senate to prevent end runs (and rightly so). Long story short, someone will need to get the senate to appoint a dictator as quickly as legally possible before it gets vetoed."

If people wish to know what is happening, why the Senate was called on 19 July, why the majority voted for a dictator, one reason was to head off further disturbances caused by people like Sulla who were plotting a "coup" on 9 July to depose Sacerdotes and magistrates. During the so-called first civil war, Vedius practically stood on a soapbox, declared himself dictator over the veto by Consul Cincinnatus, and named his buddy Cassius pontifex maximus. How many times has Vedius since quit Nova Roma to pursue his Teutonic Gods? And this is the person that the non-practitioners think bestowed authority to Cassius for life?

The Collegium Pontificum met. They decided as a Collegium that Cassius had not performed his duties for five years. prior to that the Senate had met and tried to work out an agreement whereby Cassius would perform his duties. Although publicly agreeing to the arrangement, privately he stated that he had no intention to abide with the agreement he had made with Consul Galerius. The Collegium put to a vote whether to retire him and adlect another pontifex maximus. They chose Fl. Galerius Aurelianus, but retained Cassius as a pontifex, until Cassius deleted the CP list in a childish tantrum. Then the Collegium voted on whether to remove Cassius as a pontifex as well; one pontifex abstained, and all of the others voted together to remove him.

The Back Alley Boys try to distort what happened and dissemble the facts by spreading falsehoods about our Sacerdotes. They plotted "civil war", "revolution" and a "coup," in their own words, in order to depose our elected magistrates and the adlected Sacerdotes of cultores Deorum so they might impose who knows what through their dictator. Foolish games. Cassius may be their "one true pope" but he is not Pontifex Maximus.


Vadete in pace Deorum nostrorum



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "octaviusgracchus" <octaviusgracchus@...> wrote:
>
<snipped>

> The squatter in the seats of two priests who had been appointed "for
> life" is in no position to lecture anyone about delusion.
>
<snnipped
> > Utter silliness on their part. What they proposed would cause a
> schism by which non-practitioners of the Religio Romana like Sulla,
> Cato, and Vedius would recognize Cassius as the "true pope" and not
> recognize those Sacerdotes who have been adlected to the Collegium
> Pontificum by cultores Deorum.
>
> So?
>
> Schisms happen in religions all the time.
>
> Do you really think your claim to be Pope is stronger than Cassius's,
> because some CORPORATION says so?
>
> I've got a news flash for you - in the country you and I live in, the
> majority of people call themselves PROTESTANTS. Their ancestors nailed
> a list of grievances to a door and turned their backs on a wicked Pope
> and corrupt hierarchy. Five hundred years later they *still* aren't
> willing to kowtow to the person who claims to be in charge.
>
> But I guess Protestantism is invalid in your eyes too, because it goes
> against what the almighty Corporation has decreed.
>
<snipped>
>
> The only way the Religio Romana will be healed, and the schism repaired,
> is if you are deposed and your name stricken from the records.
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79004 From: octaviusgracchus Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: Re: The Current Situation
Salve Deci Iuni,

> What I can't figure out is if you thought you were doing the right thing over the last few years or if the harm is deliberate. Either way the harm is done.

Absolutely, I think what Piscinus did in 2007-08 to Cassius and Cincinnatus was revenge for the 2000-01 quarrel. It must have been festering in him all that time. Whether his current actions are meant to finally destroy Nova Roma, completing his revenge, or merely consolidate his grip on it as its King, I don't know.

> You don't believe that at all. A corporation? Remind me not to be part of a corporation run by you, you who have contrived a crisis by deliberately throwing roadblocks in the way of the proper operation of the government and then present the solution in the form of a dictatorship. I give you credit for a well-thought out plan over time to invent this "crisis" and resolution but condemn the harm your cleverness has done to Nova Roma.

This cannot be repeated often enough.

This entire "crisis" of the last few weeks was entirely manufactured by Piscinus and his cronies in the so-called Collegium Augurum, who attempted to interfere with the actions of a Consul, by decreeing after the fact that something was wrong with the Consul's own auspices, and then by refusing to provide auspices on request, and threatening to produce a decree of impiety against him.

Moreover, as diribitor, Piscinus refused to choose a prerogative century, forcing Consul Albucius to invalidate the election. The man has twisted every office he holds, no matter how minor, into an instrument of obstruction.

They even deprived one of the last remaining independent voices in the Collegium Pontificum of a vote, for the grievous sin of *using* *rude* *language*, in order that he not stand in the way of their reforming the Collegia into the unelected supreme authority of what was once a republic.

Were it not for Piscinus's deliberate obstructionism and dereliction of duty, both as augur and diribitor, you'd have two new praetores by now, and the two consuls would be conducting business as usual.

And the title of "Augur" might still be one that commanded respect.

This whole "crisis" is manufactured. And now, the truth has come out: the purpose of it is so that they can get rid of people they don't like.

What has this manufactured crisis cost Nova Roma? How many people have unsubscribed in the last few days, likely never to return? You're about to lose a Tribune. You'll probably lose every Gallic member when the province quits en masse over the way their Consul and Tribune were mistreated and interfered with. You *still* have no praetors, and no way to conduct an election - next year's consuls, appointed without a proper election, will have a cloud of illegitimacy over them throughout their year.

All because of this scheming manipulator who calls himself a Pontifex and Augur.

His presence in the house that Cassius built is a blasphemy.

Vale,
M. Octavius Gracchus,
Consular,
Proud Peregrinus.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79005 From: octaviusgracchus Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: Re: The Current Situation
> Reading Matt below, or Octius if he prefers, one can easily see that his views are based in Christian concepts.

Hi Johnny-or-Piscis,

Yes, I reach outside the limited history that NR has to find other examples of the same thing happening, and that just happens to involve Christians because that's the cultural context that most of were raised in.

Schisms happen, between Christians, between Muslims, between Buddhists, and now, because of you, between Romans.

> A pontifex maximus is not a pope.

Mediaeval popes seemed to think so - they used "pontifex maximus" all the time.

I'm aware the Roman Pontifex Maximus isn't a Pope. I call you that, however, because you act like a pope, as Metellus called you out for after your improper and unilateral reprimand of Enodaria.

If the red shoe and pointy hat fit, wear it.

> Calling themselves "true practitioners of the Religio" is
> obscene.

Where did we call ourselves that?

There are plenty of "true practitioners", on both sides of the current conflict, and among people who have never heard of Nova Roma Inc.

I don't count you one of them, though. This manufactured crisis came about because you *refused* to perform your duty as Augur. Maybe if you actually did *practice* the religio, instead of using it as a weapon for your revenge, instead of accumulating titles and then refusing to do anything, NR might not be in such a decline since you took over.

> If people wish to know what is happening, why the Senate was called
> on 19 July, why the majority voted for a dictator, one reason was
> to head off further disturbances caused by people like Sulla who
> were plotting a "coup" on 9 July to depose Sacerdotes and
> magistrates.

Oh ho ho!

Your story is changing!

*Now* the attempt to appoint is a dictator is about avoiding a *big* *scary* *coup* from the minority faction!

But wasn't it earlier supposed to be about the "IT crisis" (which came about because I wouldn't work under you, ha ha ha)? Or because the senator from Italy noticed people weren't happy and productive anymore?

No, it's all about a *coup* from Sulla and Cato and all those very bad men who say such nasty things!

So everything about the purported reasons for appointing a dictator was just your *cover story*?

Do the Tribunes know you used them and lied to them about the reasons for dictatorship? Or were they in on it?

You tricked the Senate into voting on a Dictator while keeping from them the real reason you engineered the agenda item: to save NR from a supposed "coup".

Now that you've let the first cover story slip, is *this* the real reason you wanted a dictator, to protect NR from an imaginary coup?

Or is this just Cover Story #2? Will we peel the onion and find another secret reason for the dictatorship, and another one beneath that?

You need to destroy the village in order to save it, right?

Vale,
M. Octavius Gracchus,
who never gets invited to the
best conspiracies anymore.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79006 From: octaviusgracchus Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: Re: The Current Situation
Salvete Omnes,

Piscinus wrote:

> If people wish to know what is happening, why the Senate was called
> on 19 July, why the majority voted for a dictator, one reason was
> to head off further disturbances caused by people like Sulla who
> were plotting a "coup" on 9 July to depose Sacerdotes and
> magistrates.

I think this needs to be seen again.

Piscinus has inadvertently let slip that the reason a dictator was voted on by the Senate was not the "real" reason.

Moreover, by doing so, he has tacitly admitted that *he* was one of the people who knew the "real" reason - presumably in advance of the Senate session that was called under false pretenses.

Tribunes, were you aware of the real reason for the dictatorial appointment before you went along with the plan?

Senators, was there *any* discussion of this alleged "coup" in the Senate before you cast your votes? Or was the proposal to appoint a dictator purportedly for some *other* reasons?

Whether or not there's any truth whatsoever to Piscinus's allegations about a coup by "people like Sulla", this needs to be investigated.

The Senate was lied to, the Tribunes were lied to, and a vote to appoint a dictator was held, based on a conspiracy to conceal the actual reason for such a vote.

Piscinus has just *confirmed* what we who oppose him suspected him all along - this call for a dictator was nothing more than a naked power grab for the purpose of ousting enemies of the state.

It wasn't about "IT problems". It wasn't about ensuring smooth elections. That was a COVER STORY. And those who knew the underlying reason lied to the Senate, lied to the Tribunes, lied to the People.

Vale,
M. Octavius Gracchus.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79007 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: An Explosive Revelation - Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: The Current Situation
Avete Omnes,

I never expected waking up on Sunday and having my jaw drop on the floor
reading the new revelations of Piscinus. I knew the IT ruse was just an
excuse for a dictator since it was going to pass the Senate with even
support from members of our side of the isle, including myself.

As soon as we saw item 4, about the lack of praetors and the discord it
would be only an idiot would fail to see that this was an attempt to foist a
dictator. And with that would come the inevitable purge. I do say it is
with schadenfreude to see that Piscinus has finally admitted openly what we
all knew. That certain Senators and possibly Tribunes were apart of a
conspiracy.to launch a hostile take over the corporation.

During the entire senate debate there was ZERO discussion of any coup
attempt - because the only coup was the coup by Piscinus as he know fully
admits!. It was all focused on the IT, the lack of praetors, and just the
prevalence of argumentative words that gone on and on throughout Nova
Roma's history and would never ever be resolved even with a dictator.

I have many of the same questions as Marcus Octavius!


So everything about the purported reasons for appointing a dictator was just
your *cover story*?

Do the Tribunes know you used them and lied to them about the reasons for
dictatorship? Or were they in on it?

You tricked the Senate into voting on a Dictator while keeping from them the
real reason you engineered the agenda item: to save NR from a supposed
"coup".

Now that you've let the first cover story slip, is *this* the real reason
you wanted a dictator, to protect NR from an imaginary coup?

Or is this just Cover Story #2? Will we peel the onion and find another
secret reason for the dictatorship, and another one beneath that?

You need to destroy the village in order to save it, right?

Vale,

Sulla



On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 10:35 AM, octaviusgracchus <
octaviusgracchus@...> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> > Reading Matt below, or Octius if he prefers, one can easily see that his
> views are based in Christian concepts.
>
> Hi Johnny-or-Piscis,
>
> Yes, I reach outside the limited history that NR has to find other examples
> of the same thing happening, and that just happens to involve Christians
> because that's the cultural context that most of were raised in.
>
> Schisms happen, between Christians, between Muslims, between Buddhists, and
> now, because of you, between Romans.
>
> > A pontifex maximus is not a pope.
>
> Mediaeval popes seemed to think so - they used "pontifex maximus" all the
> time.
>
> I'm aware the Roman Pontifex Maximus isn't a Pope. I call you that,
> however, because you act like a pope, as Metellus called you out for after
> your improper and unilateral reprimand of Enodaria.
>
> If the red shoe and pointy hat fit, wear it.
>
> > Calling themselves "true practitioners of the Religio" is
> > obscene.
>
> Where did we call ourselves that?
>
> There are plenty of "true practitioners", on both sides of the current
> conflict, and among people who have never heard of Nova Roma Inc.
>
> I don't count you one of them, though. This manufactured crisis came about
> because you *refused* to perform your duty as Augur. Maybe if you actually
> did *practice* the religio, instead of using it as a weapon for your
> revenge, instead of accumulating titles and then refusing to do anything, NR
> might not be in such a decline since you took over.
>
> > If people wish to know what is happening, why the Senate was called
> > on 19 July, why the majority voted for a dictator, one reason was
> > to head off further disturbances caused by people like Sulla who
> > were plotting a "coup" on 9 July to depose Sacerdotes and
> > magistrates.
>
> Oh ho ho!
>
> Your story is changing!
>
> *Now* the attempt to appoint is a dictator is about avoiding a *big*
> *scary* *coup* from the minority faction!
>
> But wasn't it earlier supposed to be about the "IT crisis" (which came
> about because I wouldn't work under you, ha ha ha)? Or because the senator
> from Italy noticed people weren't happy and productive anymore?
>
> No, it's all about a *coup* from Sulla and Cato and all those very bad men
> who say such nasty things!
>
> So everything about the purported reasons for appointing a dictator was
> just your *cover story*?
>
> Do the Tribunes know you used them and lied to them about the reasons for
> dictatorship? Or were they in on it?
>
> You tricked the Senate into voting on a Dictator while keeping from them
> the real reason you engineered the agenda item: to save NR from a supposed
> "coup".
>
> Now that you've let the first cover story slip, is *this* the real reason
> you wanted a dictator, to protect NR from an imaginary coup?
>
> Or is this just Cover Story #2? Will we peel the onion and find another
> secret reason for the dictatorship, and another one beneath that?
>
> You need to destroy the village in order to save it, right?
>
> Vale,
> M. Octavius Gracchus,
> who never gets invited to the
> best conspiracies anymore.
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79008 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: Re: The Current Situation
Ave!

I want to know what did Marinus know.

Was he involved from the beginning in this attempt to hoodwink, misled, and
deceive the Senate of Nova Roma? Why did he go along with this?

When did the plotters approach Marinus about this coup attempt?

Now that this issue is being exposed will he see charges brought against
Piscinus for this attempted coup?

What did Marinus know and when did he know it?

Vale,

Sulla

On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 10:48 AM, octaviusgracchus <
octaviusgracchus@...> wrote:

>
>
> Salvete Omnes,
>
>
> Piscinus wrote:
>
> > If people wish to know what is happening, why the Senate was called
> > on 19 July, why the majority voted for a dictator, one reason was
> > to head off further disturbances caused by people like Sulla who
> > were plotting a "coup" on 9 July to depose Sacerdotes and
> > magistrates.
>
> I think this needs to be seen again.
>
> Piscinus has inadvertently let slip that the reason a dictator was voted on
> by the Senate was not the "real" reason.
>
> Moreover, by doing so, he has tacitly admitted that *he* was one of the
> people who knew the "real" reason - presumably in advance of the Senate
> session that was called under false pretenses.
>
> Tribunes, were you aware of the real reason for the dictatorial appointment
> before you went along with the plan?
>
> Senators, was there *any* discussion of this alleged "coup" in the Senate
> before you cast your votes? Or was the proposal to appoint a dictator
> purportedly for some *other* reasons?
>
> Whether or not there's any truth whatsoever to Piscinus's allegations about
> a coup by "people like Sulla", this needs to be investigated.
>
> The Senate was lied to, the Tribunes were lied to, and a vote to appoint a
> dictator was held, based on a conspiracy to conceal the actual reason for
> such a vote.
>
> Piscinus has just *confirmed* what we who oppose him suspected him all
> along - this call for a dictator was nothing more than a naked power grab
> for the purpose of ousting enemies of the state.
>
> It wasn't about "IT problems". It wasn't about ensuring smooth elections.
> That was a COVER STORY. And those who knew the underlying reason lied to the
> Senate, lied to the Tribunes, lied to the People.
>
> Vale,
> M. Octavius Gracchus.
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79010 From: M Arminius Maior Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: Witnessing Statement
I, Marcus Arminius Maior, as a Lictor of Nova Roma, hereby witness the
appointment of Gnaeus Equitius Marinus as Magister Populi et Dictor of Nova Roma. As a member of the Comitia Curiata I wish him good fortune in his office and in his work on behalf of the Religio Romana.

Ego, Marcus Arminius Maior, lictor curiata Novae Romae testificor Cn. Equitium Marinum Magisterum Populi et Dictatorem Novae Romae creari. Lictor Comitiorum Curiatorum ei opto ut pro religione Romana felicissime officio munereque suo fungatur.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79011 From: Diana Octavia Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: Re: The Current Situation
Salve M Moravius Piscinus,

<The "abortive attempt at a coup" was one of those schemes by Sulla, Fabius
Maximus, Valerianus, Metellus and others to depose elected and adlected
officials. They were not discussing politics, <campaigning in elections, and
legally attaining magisterial positions. Instead they spoke of deposing
officials by bringing back former officials and declaring them the "true
this or that." Utter silliness on their <part. What they proposed would
cause a schism by which non-practitioners of the Religio Romana like Sulla,
Cato, and Vedius would recognize Cassius as the "true pope" and not
recognize those <Sacerdotes who have been adlected to the Collegium
Pontificum by cultores Deorum. And this would come, according to their
discussions, with Galerius' plan to purge the Senate of their opponents;
that <is, they thought a minority could expel the majority of the Senate.
Their plans were just so totally laughable.

A coup planned by Sulla & Fabius? You must be hallucinating, paranoid or
simply a liar because that is simply not true at all. This sounds like the
pot calling the kettle black.

Vale,
Diana Octavia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79012 From: Diana Octavia Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: Re: The Current Situation
<If people wish to know what is happening, why the Senate was called on 19
July, why the majority voted for a dictator, one reason was to head off
further disturbances caused by people like Sulla who <were plotting a "coup"
on 9 July to depose Sacerdotes and magistrates.

Hey now, I've read 100 times on this list that you boys wanted a dictator to
solve the IT crisis. So now the truth slips out and it was to 'head off
further disturbances'.
And there was no coup planned. You really are coming up with some crazy
stories.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79013 From: Diana Octavia Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: Re: Witnessing Statement
Another one!!


----- Original Message -----
From: "M Arminius Maior" <marminius@...>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>; <NRComitiaCuriata@yahoogroups.com>;
<NovaRoma-Announce@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 9:54 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Witnessing Statement


I, Marcus Arminius Maior, as a Lictor of Nova Roma, hereby witness the
appointment of Gnaeus Equitius Marinus as Magister Populi et Dictor of Nova
Roma. As a member of the Comitia Curiata I wish him good fortune in his
office and in his work on behalf of the Religio Romana.

Ego, Marcus Arminius Maior, lictor curiata Novae Romae testificor Cn.
Equitium Marinum Magisterum Populi et Dictatorem Novae Romae creari. Lictor
Comitiorum Curiatorum ei opto ut pro religione Romana felicissime officio
munereque suo fungatur.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79014 From: Cato Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: Re: The Current Situation
Cato omnibus in foro SPD

Wow. I am flabbergasted.

I have not - and never will - criticize(d) the State cult. Piscinus is *not* the State
cult in human form, and his attempt to equate disagreement with him and his
actions and acting against the sacra publica is an incredible and ferocious lie.

Now I am supposed to have been part of a coup d'etat? When everything I think
has been said clearly and unapologetically here in the Forum and in the Senate,
and even privately in the Back Alley - although Piscinus will still claim that
he has his eyes and ears everywhere, especially the Back Alley, even though the
Back Alley is only the habitation of drooling, plotting idiots?

Again, the very best part of publicly and privately telling the truth in every
place that I speak is that I never have to worry that my words will come back to
haunt me.

This is the desperate, fevered gasp of a foundering attempt to seize power.

Piscinus, you are a disgrace to the seats from which you spew your poison.

Valete,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "marcushoratius" <MHoratius@...> wrote:
>
> M. Moravius Piscinus Pontifex Maximus Quiritibus, cultoribus Deorum et omnibus s. p. d.
>
> Here we have yet another example of the root of the problem. People who are not cultores Deorum, gentiles Romani, or who in any way practice the religio Romana try to impose their views on what is our religion.
>
> Reading Matt below, or Octius if he prefers, one can easily see that his views are based in Christian concepts. A pontifex maximus is not a pope. Calling Cassius the true pope means nothing. Sulla calling me the anti-pope is a joke. Calling themselves "true practitioners of the Religio" is obscene.
>
> Their "true pope," Cassius? During the so-called First Civil War, as Sulla described it in his "theoretical " plan for a civil war, "From what I recall from the first civil war was the run around (Palladius don't read into more than this than a generalization). If I recall correctly, Palladius summoned the senate with non or minimal contact with Cincinnatus at the time. Now that can be done partially here, but lets face it, it will get ugly very fast because there are guidelines spelled out in the senate to prevent end runs (and rightly so). Long story short, someone will need to get the senate to appoint a dictator as quickly as legally possible before it gets vetoed."
>
> If people wish to know what is happening, why the Senate was called on 19 July, why the majority voted for a dictator, one reason was to head off further disturbances caused by people like Sulla who were plotting a "coup" on 9 July to depose Sacerdotes and magistrates. During the so-called first civil war, Vedius practically stood on a soapbox, declared himself dictator over the veto by Consul Cincinnatus, and named his buddy Cassius pontifex maximus. How many times has Vedius since quit Nova Roma to pursue his Teutonic Gods? And this is the person that the non-practitioners think bestowed authority to Cassius for life?
>
> The Collegium Pontificum met. They decided as a Collegium that Cassius had not performed his duties for five years. prior to that the Senate had met and tried to work out an agreement whereby Cassius would perform his duties. Although publicly agreeing to the arrangement, privately he stated that he had no intention to abide with the agreement he had made with Consul Galerius. The Collegium put to a vote whether to retire him and adlect another pontifex maximus. They chose Fl. Galerius Aurelianus, but retained Cassius as a pontifex, until Cassius deleted the CP list in a childish tantrum. Then the Collegium voted on whether to remove Cassius as a pontifex as well; one pontifex abstained, and all of the others voted together to remove him.
>
> The Back Alley Boys try to distort what happened and dissemble the facts by spreading falsehoods about our Sacerdotes. They plotted "civil war", "revolution" and a "coup," in their own words, in order to depose our elected magistrates and the adlected Sacerdotes of cultores Deorum so they might impose who knows what through their dictator. Foolish games. Cassius may be their "one true pope" but he is not Pontifex Maximus.
>
>
> Vadete in pace Deorum nostrorum
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "octaviusgracchus" <octaviusgracchus@> wrote:
> >
> <snipped>
>
> > The squatter in the seats of two priests who had been appointed "for
> > life" is in no position to lecture anyone about delusion.
> >
> <snnipped
> > > Utter silliness on their part. What they proposed would cause a
> > schism by which non-practitioners of the Religio Romana like Sulla,
> > Cato, and Vedius would recognize Cassius as the "true pope" and not
> > recognize those Sacerdotes who have been adlected to the Collegium
> > Pontificum by cultores Deorum.
> >
> > So?
> >
> > Schisms happen in religions all the time.
> >
> > Do you really think your claim to be Pope is stronger than Cassius's,
> > because some CORPORATION says so?
> >
> > I've got a news flash for you - in the country you and I live in, the
> > majority of people call themselves PROTESTANTS. Their ancestors nailed
> > a list of grievances to a door and turned their backs on a wicked Pope
> > and corrupt hierarchy. Five hundred years later they *still* aren't
> > willing to kowtow to the person who claims to be in charge.
> >
> > But I guess Protestantism is invalid in your eyes too, because it goes
> > against what the almighty Corporation has decreed.
> >
> <snipped>
> >
> > The only way the Religio Romana will be healed, and the schism repaired,
> > is if you are deposed and your name stricken from the records.
> >
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79015 From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: After every Kalends, Nones, Ides, the next day is "Ater", 8/2/2010,
Reminder from:   Nova-Roma Yahoo! Group
 
Title:   After every Kalends, Nones, Ides, the next day is "Ater"
 
Date:   Monday August 2, 2010
Time:   All Day
Repeats:   This event repeats every month.
Notes:   Ater (unlucky)
*Gods or Goddesses should not be invoked by name while indoors, and no celestial God or Goddess should be invoked by name while outdoors.
*Sacrifices should not be made.
*These days are ill-omened to begin any new project since any new project would necessarily begin by performing a rite calling for the assistance of the gods. Such religious rites, beginning something new, are not to be performed.
*Avoid making journeys, or doing anything risky.
NOTA BENE: Normal work would still be performed on dies atri, and as part of performing any work one performs rites for the patron deities, geni locii, and other appropriate deities. Likewise, the daily routine is also performed before the lararium
 
Copyright © 2010  Yahoo! Inc. All Rights Reserved | Terms of Service | Privacy Policy
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79016 From: Cato Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: PETITIO ACTIONIS
C. Equitius Cato P. Memmio Albucio consule et in loco praetoris sal.

I, Gaius Equitius Cato, citizen, former praetor and current senator of the Republic of Nova Roma and member of the Board of Directors of Nova Roma, Inc., wish to lodge formal charges against M. Moravius Piscinus, to wit:

1. FALSUM: that he has coerced members of the comitia curiata to act in a way inimical to their best interests (lex Salicia poenalis, pars altera 16). He has called the comitia curiata to witness the appointment of a dictator despite the fact that no such appointment has been made; despite the fact that the supposed nominee for the dictatorship has refused to accept the nomination until a legally-convened Senate has voted to act upon his nomination; despite the fact that at least two lictors have stated publicly, clearly and unequivocally their legal reasons for not wishing to break the law of Nova Roma; he has attempted to force members of the comitia curiata to break the law and make themselves liable to charges under Nova Roman law; he has dismissed at least one lictor for refusing to break the law per his direct instructions.

2. LAESA PATRIAE: he has overtly acted to damage the institutions of the Respublica, including the consulate, the Senate and the comitia curiata; he has acted in such a way as to endanger the ability of the republic or its institutions to perform its legal functions including the consulate, the Senate and the comitia curiata; he has violated the Constitution of Nova Roma and therefore the laws of the Respublica and the laws of the United States under which Nova Roma, Inc. are incorporated, opening up the possibility of macronational legal activity against the Respublica (loc.cit. 21).

3. CONTUMELIA PIETATE: he is attempting to incite hatred, despite or enmity towards a person or group on the basis of the religious beliefs or practices of that person or group by claiming that non-practitioners are the enemy of the Respublica and the source of its internal challenges (loc.cit. 18).

Vale,

Gaius Equitius Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79017 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: Responsum ad Piscinum
Valerianus Piscino S.D.

Salve!

You wrote:

You have received your instructions as have all other Lictores curiati.
>
I received my instructions. Which Marinus, the majority of Nova Romans, and
I all hold to have been in error, and probably criminal under our laws (but
I give you the benefit of the doubt on this as far as being deliberately
ciminal). Nevertheless, read my posts carefully. Your instructions are in
violation of the law, your oaths, the *mos maiorum, *and basic decency.
Marinus himself asks us not to obey those instructions.

>
> My instructions were that if you disagreed with the decision of the Senate
> that you should remain silent. As you have done otherwise and have attempted
> to encourage other Lictores to disobey their constitutional duties, you are
> dismissed from the Comitia Curiata and your appointment as a Lictor shall be
> reviewed by the Collegium Pontificum at its next session.
>
It is a maxim that all that is required for evil to triumph is for the
good to do nothing. I cannot be compelled to stand by and see the law and
our oaths to the gods defiled. None of us can. If you were doing your job,
you would not either. We trust you Piscine, we count on you, as Pontifex
Maximus, to maintain the *pax deorum, *not encourage lictors to crime and
oathbreaking.
You claim I "encourage other Lictores to disobey their constitutional
duties" - but read my words, READ THEM! I encouraged the lictors to OBEY the
law, not break it. That's your department, these days. And the conversations
you like to trot out in which I speculated that a civil war might be coming?
Read them too. I was speculating about what would happen if you continued
breaking the law. Always, I have obeyed the law and the gods - infinitely
more than you can say.
You have the right to dismiss me from the Comitia, of course, and I am
not surprised, though you could have shown your dedication to doing things
right by not doing so. But of course, you seem to have no such dedication.
My appointment as a Lictor may be reviewed by the Collegium. That is the
Collegium's right. These facts are not in dispute. But they do prove
something - you care nothing for the gods, nothing for virtue, nothing for
our law, nothing for the Constitution, and nothing for Nova Roma. You prove
that every vile accusation against you from your opponents probably has
merit.
I have shown you respect and support in the past, Piscine. I do not
engage in name-calling, I have never called you "Fishy," "Fishhead,"
"Fishpond," "Antipope," "False Priest," or any of the other nicknames your
political enemies tend to call you, even when I disagreed with you
politically. I have asked only that you do the right thing, but you seem
almost proud of your wickedness and lies. I didn't want to believe half the
vile things said of you, but they are all true, aren't they Piscine?

No man so proud of breaking oath and law ought to dare to call himself
Pontifex Maximus. The Senate is right, we may need a dictator to deal with
those who are destroying Nova Roma. This process should start with you.

Marinus respectfully requested that we of the Comitia Curiata do
nothing to further divide the Republic. I fully intended to honor his
wishes, but your actions in retaliating against those who wish to see the
law followed, and against Marinus' express wish, reveal you have no such
honorable intentions.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79018 From: Q. Caecilius Metellus Date: 2010-08-01
Subject: Re: Responsum ad Piscinum
Q Caecilius Metellus pontifex apud populum in foro C Tullio Valeriano
Germanico lictori curiato Quiritibusque salutem dicit.

I thank you, in the first place, for making the people aware of the
action the pontifex maximus pro tempore is attempting to take, away from
the clear and open view of the people it is his duty to serve. It is
important, to be sure, that the people are kept abreast of the doings of
those who are to represent them to the Gods when acting in their
official capacity; that you have ensured that this matter does not get
swept under the rug is nothing less than honourable of you, Cai Tulli.

M Moravius Piscinus seems intent, yet again, to arrogate to himself
powers that he does not, under any part of the lex constitutiua, under
any lex, under any form of law under our Res Publica, in any way have.
It is the Collegium Pontificum alone that may remove (or, as the man
himself would put it, dismiss) a lictor; no single person has that
authority under the lex constitutiua in ordinary circumstances. The
only authority, under any legally constituted method within our Res
Publica, that M Moravius has as pontifex maximus pro tempore, is to
convene the comitia curiata, and that for a limited set of purposes.
This falls under none of those.

It is important to note that, yet again, M Moravius has shown his
contempt for the law: in attempting to arrogate to himself the authority
to dismiss a lictor, he is, in fact, arrogating that authority from its
rightful holder: the Collegium Pontificum.

Marcus Moravius is *not* the Collegium Pontificum: he does not speak for
it, except when it has been convened, and made a decision by majority
vote of its members, as can any pontifex or other member of the
Collegium Pontificum. That he yet again is attempting to usurp from
their rightful seats authority he does not in any way hold speaks
volumes in itself.

Again, I thank you for bringing this to the attention of the People,
Valeriane Lictor. May you continue to work toward ensuring that the law
is upheld, as you have done here; may those who would subvert the Res
Publica forever suffer the consequences of their actions.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79019 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: Marriage and divorce in NR
M. Hortensia quiritibus spd;

the confarreatio weddings are coming up in Sarmatia, it really fills my heart to see such wonderful real life efforts to make the religio romana part of our world culture.

My deepest thanks to those in the CP: the PM Piscinus who researched and wrote the ceremony, Cn. Cornelius Lentulus who is travelling to Sarmatia to instruct the participants, M. Octavius Corvus, sacerdos Iove, who conducts sacrifices and will be making an incredible vow to establish oppidia and a temple to Iuppiter Peruns! To M. Lucretius Agricola augur travelling all the way from Japan to witness and conduct ceremonies; to the cives of Sarmatia - Incredible cultores!

what an inspiration; may we grow more like you with each day!
di vobis faveant!
M. Hortensia Maior
Flaminica Carmentalis


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "marcushoratius" <MHoratius@...> wrote:
>
> M. Moravius Piscinus Quiritibus, cultoribus Deorum et omnibus s. p. d.
>
> Ancient Romans had different forms of marriage. The one generally used had both families come together and involved the transfer of the bride from her father's authority and from her mother to come under the authority of her husband's pater familias. The pater familias would act as auspex to consider whether the Gods favored the marriage. The bride and groom married one another in front of witnesses, exchanging symbols of their roles in the marriage and sharing a meal. Sometimes witnessing the marriage even went to the point that the marriage bed was set in the atrium of the front of the house and first night was spent there while the festivities of the families continued. However, the marriage was not consumated until the following night, after the bride had been conducted through ceremonies by the women of the groom's family. How elaborate or simple a ceremony might be depended on the wealth and status of the families, but these were not formal affairs as we might hold today.
>
> An exception is the special ceremony called a confarreatio. It was essentially the same kind of ceremony between two families, but a little more elaborate in certain features. The bride and groom married each other. Sacerdotes were there to guide them in the ceremony and witness it, but basically the bride and groom performed the marriage ritual. Special words were said at the time when the bride and groom shared their meal. Among the ten witnesses required for a marriage in a confarreatio these had to include the pontifex maximus, flamen Dialis and the flamenica Dialis. This form of marriage was not restricted to patricians alone. We know that before the XII Tabulae that patricians and plebeians intermarried and used such ceremonies, and that later with the decline of the number of patrician gentes, confarreationes became more common rather than less.
>
> Divorce was readily available to Romans. How one divorced depended on the kind of marriage one had. There was even a ceremony of divorce, supposedly performed in some reversal of the wedding ceremony. However, no divorce was allowed from a confarreatio. That was one of the features of a confarreatio that differed from other Roman marriages.
>
>
> For Nova Roma, the religio Romana has been legally recognized in the United States as a religious tradition. Communities and temples have been incorporated, court rulings have recognized the religio Romana in cases involving marriages and child custody. We cultores Deorum Populi Romani actually have more rights in the US than Gays and Lesbians in most states.
>
> The natural step is now to be recognized in another country. Canada is our most likely choice. They have a process for doing so. One requirement is that we provide the provincial authorites with a marriage ceremony that we use. And of course what we submit will have to conform to both Canadian law and our own traditions. What we submit does not have to be a confarreatio, and I am thinking that we might submit two marriage ceremonies as recognized by our tradition.
>
> As in the US where the laws vary from state to state, marriage laws vary between Canadian provinces. Our main problem in Canada for us is that there are so few cultores Deorum, but that won't necessarily harm our opportunity to be recognized in Canada. We would choose a province in which same-sex marriages are legal. We would then become one of the few religious organizations providing marriage ceremonies for Gays and Lesbians. The process of being recognized in Canada takes five years, so with our lack of cultores there, providing this service for a select community beyond our own is a consideration to improve our chances of attaining recognition. Once we were, then we would be an international religious organization and might be able to gain recognition in other countries as well. It is a very difficult process.
>
> My personal views on same-sex marriage is that I approve of it on moral and legal grounds. I cannot buy the argument, made by my neighbor along with others, that allowing Gays to marry will somehow threaten my marriage. My second marriage will celebrate its thirty-seventh anniversary next Wednesday (yes, I was married once before, for some months when I was seventeen before my wife and child died.) I would rather have young Gays living next door to me than those Born Again Christians I got now as neighbors, and whose idea of marriage is that a woman should be submissive to her husband. That attitude is more repulsive to me than any consensual acts between adults. I didn't marry to have a sex slave, and I wouldn't be married to the same woman for so long if that was all our relationship was based on. There is no morality in depriving Gays and Lesbians from sharing in loving relationship and companionship. And as far as treating anyone as second class citizens with fewer legal rights than others, I am strongly opposed to legislation that outlaws same-sex marriages.
>
> There is some mention of same-sex marriages having taken place in ancient Rome. They were not legally recognized. They were not approved socially in most cases. Homosexual sex was approved, under certain circumstances, as it was considered to be natural and one always had to abide with one's nature. But homosexual preference was thought unnatural and not generally approved. Roman men were expected to exhibit virility, in the Roman sense of the meaning, even if they did have homosexual preferences. Effeminate heterosexuals would be looked down upon moreso than a 'virile' homosexual. You might look at transvestites in India today to see how they are treated and get some idea of how Romans would have thought, too.
>
> For women, we know so little really. Lesbianism would probably have been considered natural. Nothing would be thought wrong of a woman being serviced in her desires by someone of a lower class, whether a man or woman. It wouldn't even be considered unfaithfulness to her husband to have a slave provide sexual pleasure to her, just a master demanding her privileges. Only between social peers might a woman be faulted for having sex with a man. But I doubt whether Romans would think much of women engaging in lesbian sex between social peers, or maintaining a lesbian relationship over many years. Roman social norms would never permit women to "marry" and thus move out from under some man's authority. Thus same-sex marriage for either Gays or Lesbians would not be traditional in the religio Romana.
>
> However, I would hope we as individuals and as a community have grown to respect one another more over these many centuries. What does it mean to be married? Well, obviously I am not going to accept some biblical idea on which the laws of most of Western Civilization is based today. Women subservient to men for the sole purpose of procreation and in order to keep them under control. Sorry, I find the notion of "barefoot in the winter and pregnant in the summer" to be very offensive.
>
> The traditional role of a woman in a Roman household was that of Domina. She was every bit equal to her husband, superior to him even in some sense while in the house, where he was the master outdoors, but she could still wield authority on the family's estate. In fact the State depended on strong, independent women to maintain the farms and estates when men were off to war. The Domina tended to all of the family's cultus Deorum within the household itself. Thus she was primarily responsible for the cultus for the Penates, Vesta, and other domestic Gods and Goddesses, including the cultus for the family Lares. She was the one who protected the family, through her relationship with the Gods, anointing the house, placing charms at the windows and doors to keep out disease, ill-rumors, and evil. She was primarily the one who cared for the sick, or saw that they were cared for, often by invoking the Gods or by visiting the temples, where she might also acquire herbal medicines for her household. The Domina began each morning with the household gathered for religious ceremonies, the husband performed them at the main meal of the day. She was the last to bed, tending to all things, and most specifically to the family's hearth at the end of each day. It is this role as the center of the family's religious life that certain features of Roman marriage ceremonies take place. No husband could bless his own house, because he was necessarily too involved in public affairs. He needed a wife to intervene on his behalf with the Gods in special ways that most men were thought unable to do. Most men, but not all.
>
> It is well known that men were prohibited from entering the templum of the Bona Dea. Most men, that is. However, Ovid does says that some men, "chosen by the Goddess Herself," were permitted to enter. Who? Eunuchs? I doubt the Romans would mean that; eunuchs were foreign and not thought of as men. Homosexuals or effeminate heterosexuals? Possibly, as that could be the meaning of having been "chosen" as such men are thought to be in other cultures. Priests, shamans, and the like are generally dressed in a costume that resembles that of women, since women are often taken to be closer to the Gods than men, and those men who are close to the Gods are therefore designated in this way as apart from other men.
>
> In any marriage, I think it is more a matter of a partnership where each have their individual roles to play, but where both must be able to exchange roles when needed. It doesn't really matter today whether it is the man or the woman, or either partner in a Lesbian or Gay relationship, that takes on which roles. Both must be fulfilling their parts in the relationship and fulfilling each other. And it is nobody else's business. As long as one or both partners take on the role of Domina and preserve a cultus Deorum for their household, i can approve of marriage between Gays and Lesbians.
>
> For us, I think we should leave the matter to the local communities we create to decide whether they will perform same-sex marriages, in accordance with local laws. We are not going to force communities to perform such ceremonies, as they are not traditionally Roman anyway, but neither should we permit narrow-mindedness to prohibit such ceremonies from our modern community of cultores Deorum.
>
> For some perspective, I recommend all cultores Deorum to read "Lover's Legends: The Gay Greek Myths," by Andrew Calimach, 2002. I was one of those asked by the author to offer a review of his book, and I have been recommending ever since. As a heterosexual male I found the book fascinating and I thought Andrew had handled his topic extremely well. It is not a "gay" book as such, but sought to restore the myths to a perspective on homosexuality more in keeping with the ancient Greeks than with the Victorians who alterred the stories for Christian tastes. It may help some here begin to move away from the Judeo-Christian-Muslim perspective that infects society with its prejudices, and develop a new perspective based more on the ancient cultures that our ancestors knew.
>
>
> Christina, there are two cultures known to practice polygamy where one woman marries multiple men. One is in southern India where she marries a group of brothers, and it is practiced so that the family land is not divided up between sons. It is not a good arrangement for women. One husband is bad enough; divorce doesn't exist so the brothers basicly gangbang her to death when they want a young woman. Polygamy with more than one woman married to a man is accepted in some cultures, again for the benefit of men. I suppose I wouldn't object if the women were old enough to actually choose to enter such a marriage, were not coerced in anyway, and it was legal under local law. But that has rarely been the case. Paraguay, after the Great Paraguan War, was given special papal dispensation to allow men to marry two women in an effort to restore that country's population. In that case women controlled their situation. Polygamy is practiced today alongside with coerced marriage of young girls as sex slaves, not really as wives. That is not to say there are not healthy polygamous marriages or that polygamy is naturally exploitive. Any form of marriage can be abused and exploitive. So while I might be open to the possibility, I know the reality does not meet with my approval.
>
> The general rule for us is to abide with local custom. Just as with same-sex marriage, if it is locally legal, then our cultores can legally participate in such marriages. Missouri does not have legal polygamous marriage. Try moving to Malasia, Indonesia, or Uganda.
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Christina Moseley" <cheetahgirl5@> wrote:
> >
> > What about polyamorous relationships? Me and my boyfriend are getting
> > married in the Roman marriage first, then in the state marriage. However,
> > my boyfriend was sure that we can fit another person in there but in
> > Missouri there is a law against bigamy.
> >
> > On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 18:35:20 -0500, Cato <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> >
> > > Cato Maiori sal.
> > >
> > > If we already have the ancient ceremony of the actual Roman
> > > confarreatio, why does Piscinus need to "work" on it? Wouldn't it be
> > > more appropriate to use it instead of making something up?
> > >
> > > Vale,
> > >
> > > Cato
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Salve Nero;
> > >> I'm gay and I can tell you the PM Piscinus is absolutely fine with gay
> > >> marriage. So absolutely, of course you don't need a priest for Roman
> > >> marriage at all. Mostly marriage in Rome was by cohabitation. Usus.In
> > >> ancient Rome when C. Livia married G. Titinius she was still C. Livia,
> > >> the 2 partners kept their respective names. The children took
> > >> the father's name.
> > >>
> > >> In the CP Piscinus is just working on confarreatio, a special kind of
> > >> marriage ceremony it's for all those couples who desire it. I hope
> > >> this is helpful, I'm sure the PM will be happy to discuss this. Me too,
> > >> as Flaminica Carmentalis I have a deep interest in seeing the next
> > >> generation of Roman children! adoption was a
> > >> normative part of Roman family life!
> > >> di tibi faveant
> > >> M. Hortensia Maior
> > >> Flaminica Carmentalis
> > >>
> > >> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gnaea Livia Ocella" <lbciddio@>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > Salve, Nero,
> > >> >
> > >> > I was just thinking about this a few days ago while reading Juvenal's
> > >> second satire. He seems to have taken a decidedly negative view of the
> > >> possibility of gay marriage, but I must not be alone in hoping that
> > >> Nova Romans are a bit more accommodating and accepting... though the
> > >> tweaking of an ancient form of marriage dictated by very traditional
> > >> religious regulations may be a more serious matter.
> > >> >
> > >> > I am eager to hear the answers to Nero's questions from someone with
> > >> more knowledge of the Religio and the marriage rites than I. My own
> > >> knowledge of Roman marriage is limited to the leges put in place during
> > >> Augustus' time.
> > >> >
> > >> > Vale, et valete,
> > >> > Livia Ocella
> > >> >
> > >> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Nero" <rikudemyx@> wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Salvete Omnes,
> > >> > > With the talk about the Confarreationes in August, I was curious
> > >> about gay marriages in our community. I doubt that I'm the only gay
> > >> citizen and so I'm sure that the topic must flit through some minds.
> > >> Would a priest sanction a gay union? Which of the two would gain the
> > >> other's titles? Would the religio's ceremony stay the same or would
> > >> some tweaking have to be done?
> > >> > > DVIC
> > >> > > Nero
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79020 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: Marriage and divorce in NR
C. Petronius M. Hortensiae s.p.d.,

> the confarreatio weddings are coming up in Sarmatia,

And Sarmatia is in fire...

http://www.english.rfi.fr/europe/20100730-forest-fires-ravage-russia-amid-heatwave

Love is a torch as said the Ancient, unless that is an evil omen?

Optime vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
a. d. IV Nonas Sextiles P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79021 From: Chantal Gaudiano Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Witness Statement
Salvete omnes--My apologies for the lateness of this.  Our computer was attacked by a virus, and it took some time to rid ourselves of the malware.

*  *  *

I, Paulla Corva Gaudialis, as a Lictrix of Nova Roma, hereby witness the
appointment
of Gnaeus Equitius Marinus as Magister Populi et Dictor of Nova Roma. As
a member of the Comitia Curiata I wish him good fortune in his office
and in his work on behalf of the Religio Romana.



Ego, Paulla Corva Gaudialis, lictrix curiata Novae Romae testificor Cn. Equitium Marinum
Magisterum Populi et Dictatorem Novae Romae creari. Lictor Comitiorum
Curiatorum ei opto ut pro religione Romana felicissime officio munereque
suo fungatur.

Best wishes, Marine!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79022 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Confarreationes in August
Salvete omnes,

> I am very delighted to announce the following confarreationes:
>
> Titus Iunius Brutus and Gaia Lucilia Severa
>
> Appius Furius Lupus and Lucia Cassia Dives
>
> Marcus Octavius Corvus and Appia Flavia Gemella

Best wishes and congratulations to you all!

> Additional ceremonies to be performed by Pontifex Cn. Cornelius Lentulus will include the consecration of the Temple of Iuppiter Perunus of Nova Roma. The Pontifex shall also consecrate M. Lucretius Agricola as Augur Publicus of Nova Roma and inaugurate M. Octavius Corvus as an Augur of Provincia Sarmatia

Congratulations Amici!

Valete,

Julia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79023 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: Marriage and divorce in NR
M. Hortensia C. Petronio spd;

Russia is on fire; Poltava is in the Ukraine and it's just fine.
http://en.rian.ru/world/20100801/160033664.html

Ukrainians aren't Russian and loathe being lumped together with them. Agricola will be there to take the auspices. I hope you wish him and Lentuls and Corvus the best.

Corvus is doing something incredible; he is making a vow to build a temple to Iuppiter Perunus. We should all be incredibly happy & aspire to emulate real pietas!
http://en.rian.ru/world/20100801/160033664.html

Qu'avez-vous? ma foi etês-vous malade? quel spleen...
vale
Maior


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@...> wrote:
>
> C. Petronius M. Hortensiae s.p.d.,
>
> > the confarreatio weddings are coming up in Sarmatia,
>
> And Sarmatia is in fire...
>
> http://www.english.rfi.fr/europe/20100730-forest-fires-ravage-russia-amid-heatwave
>
> Love is a torch as said the Ancient, unless that is an evil omen?
>
> Optime vale.
>
> C. Petronius Dexter
> Arcoiali scribebat
> a. d. IV Nonas Sextiles P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79024 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: Marriage and divorce in NR
C. Petronius M. Hortensiae s.p.d.,

> Russia is on fire; Poltava is in the Ukraine and it's just fine.
> http://en.rian.ru/world/20100801/160033664.html

I spoke about the Sarmatia NR province.

> Qu'avez-vous? ma foi etês-vous malade? quel spleen...

Je vais très bien, merci. Je note seulement les signes venant des dieux et j'en cherche l'explication...

Optime vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
a. d. IV Nonas Sextiles P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79025 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: Marriage and divorce in NR
Maior Petronio sd;

Here is an answer: Iuppiter has spared Ukraine entirely due to the great pietas of the Poltavii. Do you seriously believe he would be angry at cultores who have sacrificed to him, and now are vowing a temple?

Why can't you be happy? I don't understand. And since this is their wedding let's be kind and wish them every happiness and joy.
vale
Maior




>
> I spoke about the Sarmatia NR province.
>
> > Qu'avez-vous? ma foi etês-vous malade? quel spleen...
>
> Je vais très bien, merci. Je note seulement les signes venant des dieux et j'en cherche l'explication...
>
> Optime vale.
>
> C. Petronius Dexter
> Arcoiali scribebat
> a. d. IV Nonas Sextiles P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79026 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: Marriage and divorce in NR
Petronius Maiori s.p.d.,

> Here is an answer: Iuppiter has spared Ukraine entirely due to the great pietas of the Poltavii. Do you seriously believe he would be angry at cultores who have sacrificed to him, and now are vowing a temple?

CPD: I am not a soothsayer.

I just gave two remarks.
1- Love is a torch.
2- Perhaps an evil omen?

These 2 things also may be wrong both...

> Why can't you be happy?

Why do you think that I am not happy?

> I don't understand.

Because you put wrong questions.

> And since this is their wedding let's be kind and wish them every happiness and joy.

I hope that cams will work.

Optime vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
a. d. IV Nonas Sextiles P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79027 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: Marriage and divorce in NR
Salve,

Being of Ukrainian descent (first generation American), I can confirm that many Ukrainians loathe the association with Russians, but this is much more prominent among western Ukrainians, many of whom emigrated to the US and Canada after WW2. Eastern Ukraine is much more culturally and linguistically mixed, and as Poltava is in eastern Ukraine I'm not sure how much of this attitude applies to the persons concerned. The deep cultural and linguistic division can be seen in all of the national elections which have basically cut the country in half, with the eastern half being significantly pro-Russian.

Vale,

Gualterus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> M. Hortensia C. Petronio spd;
>
...
>
> Ukrainians aren't Russian and loathe being lumped together with them. Agricola will be there to take the auspices. I hope you wish him and Lentuls and Corvus the best.
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79028 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: DIES ATER
M. Moravius Piscinus Pontifex Maximus Quiritbus cultoribus Deorum et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit:

Today being the second of the month, a day following the Kalends, it is considered an ill-omened day; that is, dies ater. The reason traditionally given (below) concerns a defeat of the Romans in 390 BCE. Perhaps for that reason, too, Rome's greatest defeat at the Battle of Cannae was attributed to having occurred on 2 August. Here are two explanations for the dies atri of each month.

"Verrius Flaccus, in the fourth book of his work De Verborum Significatu writes that the days immediately following the Kalends, Nones, and Ides, which the vulgar ignorantly declare to be nefastus, are properly called and considered ill-omened for this reason: When the City, he says, had been recovered from the Senonian Gauls, Lucius Atilius stated in the Senate that Quintus Sulpicius, tribune of the soldiers, when on the eve of fighting against the Gauls at the Allia, offered sacrifice in anticipation of the battle on the day after the Ides; that the army of the Roman people was thereupon cut to pieces, and three days later the whole City, except the Capital, was taken. Also many other senators said that they remembered that whenever with a view to waging war a magistrate of the Roman people had sacrificed on the day after the Kalends, Nones, or Ides, in the very next battle of the war the State had suffered a disaster. Then the Senate referred the matter to the pontifices, that they might take what action they saw fit. The pontifices decreed that no sacrifice would properly be made on those days." ~ Gellius, Noctium Atticarum 5.17.1-2


"Why do they reckon the day that follows the Kalends, the Nones, or the Ides as unsuitable for leaving home or travel?

"Is it, as most authorities think and as Livy records, that on the day after the Ides of Quintilis, which they now call Julius, the military tribunes led out the army, and were vanquished in battle by the Gauls at the river Allia and lost the City? (18 July 390 BCE.) But when the day after the Ides had come to be regarded as ill-omened, did superstition, as is its wont, extend the custom further, and involve in the same circumspection the day after the Nones and the day after the Kalends as well?

"Or does this refer to many my irrational assumptions? For it was on a different day that they were defeated in battle, a day which they call dies Alliensis from the river, and makes a dread day of expiation; and although they have many ill-omened days, they do not observe them under the same names in each month, but each in the month in which it occurs; and it is thus quite incredible that the superstition should have attached itself simply to all days that follow immediately after the Nones or the Kalends.

"Consider the following analogy. Just as they have dedicated the first month to the Gods of Olympus, and the second, in which they perform certain rites of purification and sacrifice to the departed, to the gods of the lower world, so also in regard to the days of the month they have establish three as festive and holy (Kalends, Nonse, and Idus), as I have stated, which are, as it were, fundamental and sovereign days, but the days which follow immediately they have dedicated to the spirits and the dead, and have come to regard them as ill-omened and unsuitable for business. In fact, the Greeks worship the Gods on the day of the New Moon (like the Kalends); the next day they have duly assigned to the heroes and spirits, and the second bowl of wine is mixed in honor of the heroes and heroines. And speaking generally, time is a sort of number; and the beginning number is divine, for it is the Monad. But after it is the dyad, antagonistic to the beginning number, and the first of the even numbers. The even numbers are imperfect, incomplete, and indeterminate, just as the odd numbers are determinate, completing, and perfect. Wherefore in like manner, the Nones succeed the Kalends as an interval of five days and the Ides succeed the Nones at an interval of nine days. For the odd numbers define the beginnings, but the even numbers, since they occur after the beginnings, have no position nor power; therefore on these days they do not begin any business and travel." ~ Plutarch, Roman Question 25


After consideration of these sources and others, on 2 Oct. 2008, the Collegium Pontificum issued the Responsum Pontificum de Diebus as follows:

"Dies ATRI: These are "dark" days on which no sacrifices are properly made. No sacrifices should be offered on public altars. Neither shall the temples celebrate public worship nor hold sacrifices on these days, public Augures may not take auspicia on these days, nor should magistrates hold elections on these days. All religious ceremonies are private but without sacrifices. No one should invoke a God or Goddess by name while indoors, and no celestial God or Goddess should be invoked by name while outdoors. It is not fitting to offer sacrifice to the spirits of the dead on dies atri either, because in such ceremonies it is necessary to call upon Janus and Jove, whom it is not right to call upon on dies atri. Making journeys, starting new projects, or doing anything risky should be avoided. These days, so marked as dies atri, are religiosi and are always considered as dies fastus (F) or dies comitialis (C), never as dies nefastus (N) or dies nefastus publicus (NP). The dies atri include two special subcategories:

1. "Dies POSTRIDUANI: These are the days after all the Kalendae, Nonae and Idus of each month. They are, in general terms, dies fasti (F), but they are days of ill-omen for beginning private activities, business or journeys. Public worship is explicitly forbidden.

2. "Dies VITIOSI: These are specific dates decreed by the Senate, and considered unlucky days. The only two fixed dies vitiosi are the dies ALIENSIS, on July the 18th, a. d. XVI Kalendae Sextiliae, and August the 2nd, a. d. IV Nonae Sextiliae. Additional dies vitiosi, should they be needed, may be declared by the Senate through passage of a senatusconsultum."


Vadete in pace Deorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79029 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: a. d. IV Nonas Sextilias: Battle of Cannae; Battle of Zela
M. Moravius Piscinus Pontifex Maximus Quiritbus cultoribus Deorum et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit: Di vos inculumes custodiant

Hodie est ante diem IV Nonas Sextilias; haec dies fastus aterque est: feriae quod eo die Caius Caesar Cai filius in Hispania citeriore et quod in Ponto eod die regem Pharnacem dicivit.

AUC 706 / 47 BCE: Battle of Zela

After his victory at Alexandria, Julius Caesar moved through Syria, Cilicia and Cappadocia to arrive in Pontine territory. In a lightning quick five day campaign, Julius Caesar overcame Pharnaces II of Pontus, son of Mithridates VI. In a letter written to Amantius he described this brief campaign in the now famous Veni, Vidi, Vici.


AUC 539 / 216 BCE: Battle of Cannae

"As soon as it grew light Hannibal sent forward the Balearics and the other light infantry. He then crossed the river in person and as each division was brought across he assigned it its place in the line. The Gaulish and Spanish horse he posted near the bank on the left wing in front of the Roman cavalry; the right wing was assigned to the Numidian troopers. The centre consisted of a strong force of infantry, the Gauls and Spaniards in the middle, the Africans at either end of them. You might fancy that the Africans were for the most part a body of Romans from the way they were armed, they were so completely equipped with the arms, some of which they had taken at the Trebia, but the most part at Trasumennus. The Gauls and Spaniards had shields almost of the same shape their swords were totally different, those of the Gauls being very long and without a point, the Spaniard, accustomed to thrust more than to cut, had a short handy sword, pointed like a dagger. These nations, more than any other, inspired terror by the vastness of their stature and their frightful appearance: the Gauls were naked above the waist, the Spaniards had taken up their position wearing white tunics embroidered with purple, of dazzling brilliancy. The total number of infantry in the field was 40,000, and there were 10,000 cavalry. Hasdrubal was in command of the left wing, Maharbal of the right; Hannibal himself with his brother Mago commanded the centre. It was a great convenience to both armies that the sun shone obliquely on them, whether it was that they had purposely so placed themselves, or whether it happened by accident, since the Romans faced the north, the Carthaginans the South. The wind, called by the inhabitants the Vulturnus, was against the Romans, and blew great clouds of dust into their faces, making it impossible for them to see in front of them.

"When the battle shout was raised the auxiliaries ran forward, and the battle began with the light infantry. Then the Gauls and Spaniards on the left engaged the Roman cavalry on the right; the battle was not at all like a cavalry fight, for there was no room for maneuvering, the river on the one side and the infantry on the other hemming them in, compelled them to fight face to face. Each side tried to force their way straight forward, till at last the horses were standing in a closely pressed mass, and the riders seized their opponents and tried to drag them from their horses. It had become mainly a struggle of infantry, fierce but short, and the Roman cavalry was repulsed and fled. Just as this battle of the cavalry was finished, the infantry became engaged, and as long as the Gauls and Spaniards kept their ranks unbroken, both sides were equally matched in strength and courage. At length after long and repeated efforts the Romans closed up their ranks, echeloned their front, and by the sheer weight of their deep column bore down the division of the enemy which was stationed in front of Hannibal's line, and was too thin and weak to resist the pressure. Without a moment's pause they followed up their broken and hastily retreating foe till they took to headlong flight. Cutting their way through the mass of fugitives, who offered no resistance, they penetrated as far as the Africans who were stationed on both wings, somewhat further back than the Gauls and Spaniards who had formed the advanced centre. As the latter fell back the whole front became level, and as they continued to give ground it became concave and crescent-shaped, the Africans at either end forming the horns. As the Romans rushed on incautiously between them, they were enfiladed by the two wings, which extended and closed round them in the rear. On this, the Romans, who had fought one battle to no purpose, left the Gauls and Spaniards, whose rear they had been slaughtering, and commenced a fresh struggle with the Africans. The contest was a very one-sided one, for not only were they hemmed in on all sides, but wearied with the previous fighting they were meeting fresh and vigorous opponents.

"By this time the Roman left wing, where the allied cavalry were fronting the Numidians, had become engaged, but the fighting was slack at first owing to a Carthaginian stratagem. About 500 Numidians, carrying, besides their usual arms and missiles, swords concealed under their coats of mail, rode out from their own line with their shields slung behind their backs as though they were deserters, and suddenly leaped from their horses and flung their shields and javelins at the feet of their enemy. They were received into their ranks, conducted to the rear, and ordered to remain quiet. While the battle was spreading to the various parts of the field they remained quiet, but when the eyes and minds of all were wholly taken up with the fighting they seized the large Roman shields which were lying everywhere amongst the heaps of slain and commenced a furious attack upon the rear of the Roman line. Slashing away at backs and hips, they made a great slaughter and a still greater panic and confusion. Amidst the rout and panic in one part of the field and the obstinate but hopeless struggle in the other, Hasdrubal, who was in command of that arm, withdrew some Numidians from the centre of the right wing, where the fighting was feebly kept up, and sent them m pursuit of the fugitives, and at the same time sent the Spanish and Gaulish horse to the aid of the Africans, who were by this time more wearied by slaughter than by fighting.

"Paulus was on the other side of the field. In spite of his having been seriously wounded at the commencement of the action by a bullet from a sling, he frequently encountered Hannibal with a compact body of troops, and in several places restored the battle. The Roman cavalry formed a bodyguard round him, but at last, as he became too weak to manage his horse, they all dismounted. It is stated that when some one reported to Hannibal that the consul had ordered his men to fight on foot, he remarked, "I would rather he handed them over to me bound hand and foot.'' Now that the victory of the enemy was no longer doubtful this struggle of the dismounted cavalry was such as might be expected when men preferred to die where they stood rather than flee, and the victors, furious at them for delaying the victory, butchered without mercy those whom they could not dislodge. They did, however, repulse a few survivors exhausted with their exertions and their wounds. All were at last scattered, and those who could regained their horses for flight. Cn. Lentulus, a military tribune, saw, as he rode by, the consul covered with blood sitting on a boulder. "Lucius Aemilius," he said, "the one man whom the gods must hold guiltless of this day's disaster, take this horse while you have still some strength left, and I can lift you into the saddle and keep by your side to protect you. Do not make this day of battle still more fatal by a consul's death, there are enough tears and mourning without that." The consul replied: "Long may you live to do brave deeds, Cornelius, but do not waste in useless pity the few moments left in which to escape from the hands of the enemy. Go, announce publicly to the senate that they must fortify Rome and make its defence strong before the victorious enemy approaches, and tell Q. Fabius privately that I have ever remembered his precepts in life and in death. Suffer me to breathe my last among my slaughtered soldiers, let me not have to defend myself again when I am no longer consul, or appear as the accuser of my colleague and protect my own innocence by throwing the guilt on another." During this conversation a crowd of fugitives came suddenly upon them, followed by the enemy, who, not knowing who the consul was, overwhelmed him with a shower of missiles. Lentulus escaped on horseback in the rush. Then there was flight in all directions; 7000 men escaped to the smaller camp, 10,000 to the larger, and about 2000 to the village of Cannae. These latter were at once surrounded by Carthalo and his cavalry, as the village was quite unfortified. The other consul, who either by accident or design had not joined any of these bodies of fugitives, escaped with about fifty cavalry to Venusia; 45,500 infantry, 2700 cavalry-almost an equal proportion of Romans and allies-are said to have been killed. Amongst the number were both the quaestors attached to the consuls, L. Atilius and L. Furius Bibulcus, twenty-nine military tribunes, several ex-consuls, ex-praetors, and ex-aediles (amongst them are included Cn. Servilius Geminus and M. Minucius, who was Master of the Horse the previous year and, some years before that, consul), and in addition to these, eighty men who had either been senators or filled offices qualifying them for election to the senate and who had volunteered for service with the legions. The prisoners taken in the battle are stated to have amounted to 3000 infantry and 1500 cavalry." ~ Titus Livius 22.46-49


"Such was the end of the battle of Cannae, in which both sides fought with the most conspicuous gallantry, the conquered no less than the conquerors. This is proved by the fact that, out of six thousand horse, only seventy escaped with Caius Terentius to Venusia, and about three hundred of the allied cavalry to various towns in the neighborhood. Of the infantry ten thousand were taken prisoners in
fair fight, but were not actually engaged in the battle: of those who were actually engaged only about three thousand perhaps escaped to the towns of the surrounding district; all the rest died nobly, to the number of seventy thousand, the Carthaginians being on this occasion, as on previous ones, mainly indebted for their victory to their superiority in cavalry: a lesson to posterity that in actual war it is better to have half the number of infantry, and the superiority in cavalry, than to engage your enemy with an equality in both. On the side of Hannibal there fell four thousand Celts, fifteen hundred Iberians and Libyans, and about two hundred horse.

"The ten thousand Romans who were captured had not, as I said, been engaged in the actual battle; and the reason was this. Lucius Aemilius left ten thousand infantry in his camp that, in case Hannibal should disregard the safety of his own camp, and take his whole army onto the field, they might seize the opportunity, while the battle was going on, of forcing their way in and capturing the enemy's baggage; or if, on the other hand, Hannibal should, in view of this contingency, leave a guard in his camp, the number of the enemy in the field might thereby be diminished. These men were captured in the field in the following circumstances. Hannibal, as a matter of fact, did leave a sufficient guard in his camp; and as soon as the battle began, the Romans, according to their instructions, assaulted and tried to take those thus left by Hannibal. At first they held their own: but just as they were beginning to waver, Hannibal, who was by this time gaining a victory all along the line, came to their relief, and routing the Romans, shut them up in their own camp; killed two thousand of them; and took all the rest prisoners. In like manner the Numidian horse brought in all those who had taken refuge in the various strongholds about the district, amounting to two thousand of the routed cavalry." ~ Polyibius, The Roman Histories 3.117


Our thought for this aniiversary of the Battle of Cannae is comes from Democritus, The Golden Sayings 32:

"It is better that counsel should precede actions, than that repentance should follow them."
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79030 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: Marriage and divorce in NR
M. Moravius C. Petronio s. p. d.

That is in Russia. Poltava is in the Ukraine. Unless you wish to attribute the love of our three couples in Poltava as the cause of the fires raging in California too.



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@...> wrote:
>
> C. Petronius M. Hortensiae s.p.d.,
>
> > the confarreatio weddings are coming up in Sarmatia,
>
> And Sarmatia is in fire...
>
> http://www.english.rfi.fr/europe/20100730-forest-fires-ravage-russia-amid-heatwave
>
> Love is a torch as said the Ancient, unless that is an evil omen?
>
> Optime vale.
>
> C. Petronius Dexter
> Arcoiali scribebat
> a. d. IV Nonas Sextiles P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79031 From: Cato Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: Marriage and divorce in NR
Cato Piscino sal.

You might want to take a look at a map of our provinces. Sarmatia includes Russia, the Ukraine, and Byelaruss:

Sarmatia (Ukraine, Russia, Byelaruss) http://sarmatia.org

http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Provincia_(Nova_Roma)

Vale,

Cato



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "marcushoratius" <MHoratius@...> wrote:
>
> M. Moravius C. Petronio s. p. d.
>
> That is in Russia. Poltava is in the Ukraine. Unless you wish to attribute the love of our three couples in Poltava as the cause of the fires raging in California too.
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@> wrote:
> >
> > C. Petronius M. Hortensiae s.p.d.,
> >
> > > the confarreatio weddings are coming up in Sarmatia,
> >
> > And Sarmatia is in fire...
> >
> > http://www.english.rfi.fr/europe/20100730-forest-fires-ravage-russia-amid-heatwave
> >
> > Love is a torch as said the Ancient, unless that is an evil omen?
> >
> > Optime vale.
> >
> > C. Petronius Dexter
> > Arcoiali scribebat
> > a. d. IV Nonas Sextiles P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79032 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: PETITIO ACTIONIS
Salve Cato,
it is ridiculous to think that Piscinus is able to *coerce* anyone in Nova
Roma to do anything.
Just how do you think he'd coerce anybody? By writing a lot of emails?
As far as I know only Sulla and the people who live with him would be able
to physically coerce each other to do something, since they are within reach
of each other.

For anyone else, it's ridiculous to postulate it.
Or do you think Piscinus has a collection of voodoo dolls, and at night he
performs rituals to magically coerce people to do his will? Come on!

L. Livia Plauta

----- Original Message -----
From: "Cato" <catoinnyc@....>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 2:03 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] PETITIO ACTIONIS


C. Equitius Cato P. Memmio Albucio consule et in loco praetoris sal.

I, Gaius Equitius Cato, citizen, former praetor and current senator of the
Republic of Nova Roma and member of the Board of Directors of Nova Roma,
Inc., wish to lodge formal charges against M. Moravius Piscinus, to wit:

1. FALSUM: that he has coerced members of the comitia curiata to act in a
way inimical to their best interests (lex Salicia poenalis, pars altera 16).
He has called the comitia curiata to witness the appointment of a dictator
despite the fact that no such appointment has been made; despite the fact
that the supposed nominee for the dictatorship has refused to accept the
nomination until a legally-convened Senate has voted to act upon his
nomination; despite the fact that at least two lictors have stated publicly,
clearly and unequivocally their legal reasons for not wishing to break the
law of Nova Roma; he has attempted to force members of the comitia curiata
to break the law and make themselves liable to charges under Nova Roman law;
he has dismissed at least one lictor for refusing to break the law per his
direct instructions.

2. LAESA PATRIAE: he has overtly acted to damage the institutions of the
Respublica, including the consulate, the Senate and the comitia curiata; he
has acted in such a way as to endanger the ability of the republic or its
institutions to perform its legal functions including the consulate, the
Senate and the comitia curiata; he has violated the Constitution of Nova
Roma and therefore the laws of the Respublica and the laws of the United
States under which Nova Roma, Inc. are incorporated, opening up the
possibility of macronational legal activity against the Respublica (loc.cit.
21).

3. CONTUMELIA PIETATE: he is attempting to incite hatred, despite or enmity
towards a person or group on the basis of the religious beliefs or practices
of that person or group by claiming that non-practitioners are the enemy of
the Respublica and the source of its internal challenges (loc.cit. 18).

Vale,

Gaius Equitius Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79033 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: PETITIO ACTIONIS
Yo Livia,

How do you know I am able to do that? And how are Tink and Metellus able to
do that? Physically. Come on Livia you opened your trap..explain it or I
will file charges against you myself! for CALVMINAE

Vale,

Sulla

On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 8:34 AM, L. Livia Plauta <livia.plauta@...>wrote:

>
>
> Salve Cato,
> it is ridiculous to think that Piscinus is able to *coerce* anyone in Nova
> Roma to do anything.
> Just how do you think he'd coerce anybody? By writing a lot of emails?
> As far as I know only Sulla and the people who live with him would be able
> to physically coerce each other to do something, since they are within
> reach
> of each other.
>
> For anyone else, it's ridiculous to postulate it.
> Or do you think Piscinus has a collection of voodoo dolls, and at night he
> performs rituals to magically coerce people to do his will? Come on!
>
> L. Livia Plauta
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cato" <catoinnyc@....>
> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>>
> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 2:03 AM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] PETITIO ACTIONIS
>
> C. Equitius Cato P. Memmio Albucio consule et in loco praetoris sal.
>
> I, Gaius Equitius Cato, citizen, former praetor and current senator of the
> Republic of Nova Roma and member of the Board of Directors of Nova Roma,
> Inc., wish to lodge formal charges against M. Moravius Piscinus, to wit:
>
> 1. FALSUM: that he has coerced members of the comitia curiata to act in a
> way inimical to their best interests (lex Salicia poenalis, pars altera
> 16).
> He has called the comitia curiata to witness the appointment of a dictator
> despite the fact that no such appointment has been made; despite the fact
> that the supposed nominee for the dictatorship has refused to accept the
> nomination until a legally-convened Senate has voted to act upon his
> nomination; despite the fact that at least two lictors have stated
> publicly,
> clearly and unequivocally their legal reasons for not wishing to break the
> law of Nova Roma; he has attempted to force members of the comitia curiata
> to break the law and make themselves liable to charges under Nova Roman
> law;
> he has dismissed at least one lictor for refusing to break the law per his
> direct instructions.
>
> 2. LAESA PATRIAE: he has overtly acted to damage the institutions of the
> Respublica, including the consulate, the Senate and the comitia curiata; he
>
> has acted in such a way as to endanger the ability of the republic or its
> institutions to perform its legal functions including the consulate, the
> Senate and the comitia curiata; he has violated the Constitution of Nova
> Roma and therefore the laws of the Respublica and the laws of the United
> States under which Nova Roma, Inc. are incorporated, opening up the
> possibility of macronational legal activity against the Respublica
> (loc.cit.
> 21).
>
> 3. CONTUMELIA PIETATE: he is attempting to incite hatred, despite or enmity
>
> towards a person or group on the basis of the religious beliefs or
> practices
> of that person or group by claiming that non-practitioners are the enemy of
>
> the Respublica and the source of its internal challenges (loc.cit. 18).
>
> Vale,
>
> Gaius Equitius Cato
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79034 From: Belle Morte Statia Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: PETITIO ACTIONIS
Salve,

Well now Livia what you be hearing?

Be rest assured, Master and Commander of me own ship, coercion of
unscrupulous nature would never be tolerated.

Vale,
Aeternia

On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 8:34 AM, L. Livia Plauta <livia.plauta@...>wrote:

>
>
> Salve Cato,
> it is ridiculous to think that Piscinus is able to *coerce* anyone in Nova
> Roma to do anything.
> Just how do you think he'd coerce anybody? By writing a lot of emails?
> As far as I know only Sulla and the people who live with him would be able
> to physically coerce each other to do something, since they are within
> reach
> of each other.
>
> For anyone else, it's ridiculous to postulate it.
> Or do you think Piscinus has a collection of voodoo dolls, and at night he
> performs rituals to magically coerce people to do his will? Come on!
>
> L. Livia Plauta
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cato" <catoinnyc@....>
> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>>
> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 2:03 AM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] PETITIO ACTIONIS
>
> C. Equitius Cato P. Memmio Albucio consule et in loco praetoris sal.
>
> I, Gaius Equitius Cato, citizen, former praetor and current senator of the
> Republic of Nova Roma and member of the Board of Directors of Nova Roma,
> Inc., wish to lodge formal charges against M. Moravius Piscinus, to wit:
>
> 1. FALSUM: that he has coerced members of the comitia curiata to act in a
> way inimical to their best interests (lex Salicia poenalis, pars altera
> 16).
> He has called the comitia curiata to witness the appointment of a dictator
> despite the fact that no such appointment has been made; despite the fact
> that the supposed nominee for the dictatorship has refused to accept the
> nomination until a legally-convened Senate has voted to act upon his
> nomination; despite the fact that at least two lictors have stated
> publicly,
> clearly and unequivocally their legal reasons for not wishing to break the
> law of Nova Roma; he has attempted to force members of the comitia curiata
> to break the law and make themselves liable to charges under Nova Roman
> law;
> he has dismissed at least one lictor for refusing to break the law per his
> direct instructions.
>
> 2. LAESA PATRIAE: he has overtly acted to damage the institutions of the
> Respublica, including the consulate, the Senate and the comitia curiata; he
>
> has acted in such a way as to endanger the ability of the republic or its
> institutions to perform its legal functions including the consulate, the
> Senate and the comitia curiata; he has violated the Constitution of Nova
> Roma and therefore the laws of the Respublica and the laws of the United
> States under which Nova Roma, Inc. are incorporated, opening up the
> possibility of macronational legal activity against the Respublica
> (loc.cit.
> 21).
>
> 3. CONTUMELIA PIETATE: he is attempting to incite hatred, despite or enmity
>
> towards a person or group on the basis of the religious beliefs or
> practices
> of that person or group by claiming that non-practitioners are the enemy of
>
> the Respublica and the source of its internal challenges (loc.cit. 18).
>
> Vale,
>
> Gaius Equitius Cato
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79035 From: Susan Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: PETITIO ACTIONIS
Salve Livia:



"Or do you think Piscinus has a collection of voodoo dolls, and at night he
performs rituals to magically coerce people to do his will? Come on!"

..Well, for lack of any other reasonable explanation for certain behaviours and events, I'm beginning to wonder... !

Susan/Po


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Livia Plauta" <livia.plauta@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Cato,
> it is ridiculous to think that Piscinus is able to *coerce* anyone in Nova
> Roma to do anything.
> Just how do you think he'd coerce anybody? By writing a lot of emails?
> As far as I know only Sulla and the people who live with him would be able
> to physically coerce each other to do something, since they are within reach
> of each other.
>
> For anyone else, it's ridiculous to postulate it.
> Or do you think Piscinus has a collection of voodoo dolls, and at night he
> performs rituals to magically coerce people to do his will? Come on!
>
> L. Livia Plauta
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cato" <catoinnyc@>
> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 2:03 AM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] PETITIO ACTIONIS
>
>
> C. Equitius Cato P. Memmio Albucio consule et in loco praetoris sal.
>
> I, Gaius Equitius Cato, citizen, former praetor and current senator of the
> Republic of Nova Roma and member of the Board of Directors of Nova Roma,
> Inc., wish to lodge formal charges against M. Moravius Piscinus, to wit:
>
> 1. FALSUM: that he has coerced members of the comitia curiata to act in a
> way inimical to their best interests (lex Salicia poenalis, pars altera 16).
> He has called the comitia curiata to witness the appointment of a dictator
> despite the fact that no such appointment has been made; despite the fact
> that the supposed nominee for the dictatorship has refused to accept the
> nomination until a legally-convened Senate has voted to act upon his
> nomination; despite the fact that at least two lictors have stated publicly,
> clearly and unequivocally their legal reasons for not wishing to break the
> law of Nova Roma; he has attempted to force members of the comitia curiata
> to break the law and make themselves liable to charges under Nova Roman law;
> he has dismissed at least one lictor for refusing to break the law per his
> direct instructions.
>
> 2. LAESA PATRIAE: he has overtly acted to damage the institutions of the
> Respublica, including the consulate, the Senate and the comitia curiata; he
> has acted in such a way as to endanger the ability of the republic or its
> institutions to perform its legal functions including the consulate, the
> Senate and the comitia curiata; he has violated the Constitution of Nova
> Roma and therefore the laws of the Respublica and the laws of the United
> States under which Nova Roma, Inc. are incorporated, opening up the
> possibility of macronational legal activity against the Respublica (loc.cit.
> 21).
>
> 3. CONTUMELIA PIETATE: he is attempting to incite hatred, despite or enmity
> towards a person or group on the basis of the religious beliefs or practices
> of that person or group by claiming that non-practitioners are the enemy of
> the Respublica and the source of its internal challenges (loc.cit. 18).
>
> Vale,
>
> Gaius Equitius Cato
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79036 From: Belle Morte Statia Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: PETITIO ACTIONIS
Salve Sulla,

I don't believe throwing up charges is actually neccessary, but then who am
I to tell you what to do for I am certainly not your Mother. Remember we're
trying to do that known as bridge-building, how can this be done with every
single little statement someone wants to slap someone else with charges? I
am sure Livia Plauta has a very good explanation for how she has come to
such conclusions and would not mind in the least sharing them.

Vale,
Aeternia

On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 9:03 AM, Robert Woolwine
<robert.woolwine@...>wrote:

> Yo Livia,
>
> How do you know I am able to do that? And how are Tink and Metellus able
> to
> do that? Physically. Come on Livia you opened your trap..explain it or I
> will file charges against you myself! for CALVMINAE
>
> Vale,
>
> Sulla
>
> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 8:34 AM, L. Livia Plauta <livia.plauta@...
> >wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Salve Cato,
> > it is ridiculous to think that Piscinus is able to *coerce* anyone in
> Nova
> > Roma to do anything.
> > Just how do you think he'd coerce anybody? By writing a lot of emails?
> > As far as I know only Sulla and the people who live with him would be
> able
> > to physically coerce each other to do something, since they are within
> > reach
> > of each other.
> >
> > For anyone else, it's ridiculous to postulate it.
> > Or do you think Piscinus has a collection of voodoo dolls, and at night
> he
> > performs rituals to magically coerce people to do his will? Come on!
> >
> > L. Livia Plauta
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Cato" <catoinnyc@....>
> > To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>>
> > Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 2:03 AM
> > Subject: [Nova-Roma] PETITIO ACTIONIS
> >
> > C. Equitius Cato P. Memmio Albucio consule et in loco praetoris sal.
> >
> > I, Gaius Equitius Cato, citizen, former praetor and current senator of
> the
> > Republic of Nova Roma and member of the Board of Directors of Nova Roma,
> > Inc., wish to lodge formal charges against M. Moravius Piscinus, to wit:
> >
> > 1. FALSUM: that he has coerced members of the comitia curiata to act in a
> > way inimical to their best interests (lex Salicia poenalis, pars altera
> > 16).
> > He has called the comitia curiata to witness the appointment of a
> dictator
> > despite the fact that no such appointment has been made; despite the fact
> > that the supposed nominee for the dictatorship has refused to accept the
> > nomination until a legally-convened Senate has voted to act upon his
> > nomination; despite the fact that at least two lictors have stated
> > publicly,
> > clearly and unequivocally their legal reasons for not wishing to break
> the
> > law of Nova Roma; he has attempted to force members of the comitia
> curiata
> > to break the law and make themselves liable to charges under Nova Roman
> > law;
> > he has dismissed at least one lictor for refusing to break the law per
> his
> > direct instructions.
> >
> > 2. LAESA PATRIAE: he has overtly acted to damage the institutions of the
> > Respublica, including the consulate, the Senate and the comitia curiata;
> he
> >
> > has acted in such a way as to endanger the ability of the republic or its
> > institutions to perform its legal functions including the consulate, the
> > Senate and the comitia curiata; he has violated the Constitution of Nova
> > Roma and therefore the laws of the Respublica and the laws of the United
> > States under which Nova Roma, Inc. are incorporated, opening up the
> > possibility of macronational legal activity against the Respublica
> > (loc.cit.
> > 21).
> >
> > 3. CONTUMELIA PIETATE: he is attempting to incite hatred, despite or
> enmity
> >
> > towards a person or group on the basis of the religious beliefs or
> > practices
> > of that person or group by claiming that non-practitioners are the enemy
> of
> >
> > the Respublica and the source of its internal challenges (loc.cit. 18).
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Gaius Equitius Cato
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79037 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: PETITIO ACTIONIS
Ok Tink, I will be calm about this. I will listen to your advice.

Vale,

Sulla

On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 9:53 AM, Belle Morte Statia
<syrenslullaby@...>wrote:

>
>
> Salve Sulla,
>
> I don't believe throwing up charges is actually neccessary, but then who am
> I to tell you what to do for I am certainly not your Mother. Remember we're
> trying to do that known as bridge-building, how can this be done with every
> single little statement someone wants to slap someone else with charges? I
> am sure Livia Plauta has a very good explanation for how she has come to
> such conclusions and would not mind in the least sharing them.
>
> Vale,
> Aeternia
>
> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 9:03 AM, Robert Woolwine
> <robert.woolwine@... <robert.woolwine%40gmail.com>>wrote:
>
>
> > Yo Livia,
> >
> > How do you know I am able to do that? And how are Tink and Metellus able
> > to
> > do that? Physically. Come on Livia you opened your trap..explain it or I
> > will file charges against you myself! for CALVMINAE
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Sulla
> >
> > On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 8:34 AM, L. Livia Plauta <livia.plauta@...<livia.plauta%40gmail.com>
> > >wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Salve Cato,
> > > it is ridiculous to think that Piscinus is able to *coerce* anyone in
> > Nova
> > > Roma to do anything.
> > > Just how do you think he'd coerce anybody? By writing a lot of emails?
> > > As far as I know only Sulla and the people who live with him would be
> > able
> > > to physically coerce each other to do something, since they are within
> > > reach
> > > of each other.
> > >
> > > For anyone else, it's ridiculous to postulate it.
> > > Or do you think Piscinus has a collection of voodoo dolls, and at night
> > he
> > > performs rituals to magically coerce people to do his will? Come on!
> > >
> > > L. Livia Plauta
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Cato" <catoinnyc@....>
> > > To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com><Nova-Roma%
> 40yahoogroups.com>>
> > > Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 2:03 AM
> > > Subject: [Nova-Roma] PETITIO ACTIONIS
> > >
> > > C. Equitius Cato P. Memmio Albucio consule et in loco praetoris sal.
> > >
> > > I, Gaius Equitius Cato, citizen, former praetor and current senator of
> > the
> > > Republic of Nova Roma and member of the Board of Directors of Nova
> Roma,
> > > Inc., wish to lodge formal charges against M. Moravius Piscinus, to
> wit:
> > >
> > > 1. FALSUM: that he has coerced members of the comitia curiata to act in
> a
> > > way inimical to their best interests (lex Salicia poenalis, pars altera
> > > 16).
> > > He has called the comitia curiata to witness the appointment of a
> > dictator
> > > despite the fact that no such appointment has been made; despite the
> fact
> > > that the supposed nominee for the dictatorship has refused to accept
> the
> > > nomination until a legally-convened Senate has voted to act upon his
> > > nomination; despite the fact that at least two lictors have stated
> > > publicly,
> > > clearly and unequivocally their legal reasons for not wishing to break
> > the
> > > law of Nova Roma; he has attempted to force members of the comitia
> > curiata
> > > to break the law and make themselves liable to charges under Nova Roman
> > > law;
> > > he has dismissed at least one lictor for refusing to break the law per
> > his
> > > direct instructions.
> > >
> > > 2. LAESA PATRIAE: he has overtly acted to damage the institutions of
> the
> > > Respublica, including the consulate, the Senate and the comitia
> curiata;
> > he
> > >
> > > has acted in such a way as to endanger the ability of the republic or
> its
> > > institutions to perform its legal functions including the consulate,
> the
> > > Senate and the comitia curiata; he has violated the Constitution of
> Nova
> > > Roma and therefore the laws of the Respublica and the laws of the
> United
> > > States under which Nova Roma, Inc. are incorporated, opening up the
> > > possibility of macronational legal activity against the Respublica
> > > (loc.cit.
> > > 21).
> > >
> > > 3. CONTUMELIA PIETATE: he is attempting to incite hatred, despite or
> > enmity
> > >
> > > towards a person or group on the basis of the religious beliefs or
> > > practices
> > > of that person or group by claiming that non-practitioners are the
> enemy
> > of
> > >
> > > the Respublica and the source of its internal challenges (loc.cit. 18).
> > >
> > > Vale,
> > >
> > > Gaius Equitius Cato
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79038 From: fauxrari Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: Marriage and divorce in NR
I just married the man of my dreams, Marcus Valerius Brutus in an olive garden in a traditional confferatio ceremony. It was awesome! I hope we can post photos/videos soon. I don't have anything, since I was so busy, but it was great fun!

L. Antonia Auriga

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "marcushoratius" <MHoratius@...> wrote:
>
> M. Moravius Piscinus Quiritibus, cultoribus Deorum et omnibus s. p. d.
>
> Ancient Romans had different forms of marriage. The one generally used had both families come together and involved the transfer of the bride from her father's authority and from her mother to come under the authority of her husband's pater familias. The pater familias would act as auspex to consider whether the Gods favored the marriage. The bride and groom married one another in front of witnesses, exchanging symbols of their roles in the marriage and sharing a meal. Sometimes witnessing the marriage even went to the point that the marriage bed was set in the atrium of the front of the house and first night was spent there while the festivities of the families continued. However, the marriage was not consumated until the following night, after the bride had been conducted through ceremonies by the women of the groom's family. How elaborate or simple a ceremony might be depended on the wealth and status of the families, but these were not formal affairs as we might hold today.
>
> An exception is the special ceremony called a confarreatio. It was essentially the same kind of ceremony between two families, but a little more elaborate in certain features. The bride and groom married each other. Sacerdotes were there to guide them in the ceremony and witness it, but basically the bride and groom performed the marriage ritual. Special words were said at the time when the bride and groom shared their meal. Among the ten witnesses required for a marriage in a confarreatio these had to include the pontifex maximus, flamen Dialis and the flamenica Dialis. This form of marriage was not restricted to patricians alone. We know that before the XII Tabulae that patricians and plebeians intermarried and used such ceremonies, and that later with the decline of the number of patrician gentes, confarreationes became more common rather than less.
>
> Divorce was readily available to Romans. How one divorced depended on the kind of marriage one had. There was even a ceremony of divorce, supposedly performed in some reversal of the wedding ceremony. However, no divorce was allowed from a confarreatio. That was one of the features of a confarreatio that differed from other Roman marriages.
>
>
> For Nova Roma, the religio Romana has been legally recognized in the United States as a religious tradition. Communities and temples have been incorporated, court rulings have recognized the religio Romana in cases involving marriages and child custody. We cultores Deorum Populi Romani actually have more rights in the US than Gays and Lesbians in most states.
>
> The natural step is now to be recognized in another country. Canada is our most likely choice. They have a process for doing so. One requirement is that we provide the provincial authorites with a marriage ceremony that we use. And of course what we submit will have to conform to both Canadian law and our own traditions. What we submit does not have to be a confarreatio, and I am thinking that we might submit two marriage ceremonies as recognized by our tradition.
>
> As in the US where the laws vary from state to state, marriage laws vary between Canadian provinces. Our main problem in Canada for us is that there are so few cultores Deorum, but that won't necessarily harm our opportunity to be recognized in Canada. We would choose a province in which same-sex marriages are legal. We would then become one of the few religious organizations providing marriage ceremonies for Gays and Lesbians. The process of being recognized in Canada takes five years, so with our lack of cultores there, providing this service for a select community beyond our own is a consideration to improve our chances of attaining recognition. Once we were, then we would be an international religious organization and might be able to gain recognition in other countries as well. It is a very difficult process.
>
> My personal views on same-sex marriage is that I approve of it on moral and legal grounds. I cannot buy the argument, made by my neighbor along with others, that allowing Gays to marry will somehow threaten my marriage. My second marriage will celebrate its thirty-seventh anniversary next Wednesday (yes, I was married once before, for some months when I was seventeen before my wife and child died.) I would rather have young Gays living next door to me than those Born Again Christians I got now as neighbors, and whose idea of marriage is that a woman should be submissive to her husband. That attitude is more repulsive to me than any consensual acts between adults. I didn't marry to have a sex slave, and I wouldn't be married to the same woman for so long if that was all our relationship was based on. There is no morality in depriving Gays and Lesbians from sharing in loving relationship and companionship. And as far as treating anyone as second class citizens with fewer legal rights than others, I am strongly opposed to legislation that outlaws same-sex marriages.
>
> There is some mention of same-sex marriages having taken place in ancient Rome. They were not legally recognized. They were not approved socially in most cases. Homosexual sex was approved, under certain circumstances, as it was considered to be natural and one always had to abide with one's nature. But homosexual preference was thought unnatural and not generally approved. Roman men were expected to exhibit virility, in the Roman sense of the meaning, even if they did have homosexual preferences. Effeminate heterosexuals would be looked down upon moreso than a 'virile' homosexual. You might look at transvestites in India today to see how they are treated and get some idea of how Romans would have thought, too.
>
> For women, we know so little really. Lesbianism would probably have been considered natural. Nothing would be thought wrong of a woman being serviced in her desires by someone of a lower class, whether a man or woman. It wouldn't even be considered unfaithfulness to her husband to have a slave provide sexual pleasure to her, just a master demanding her privileges. Only between social peers might a woman be faulted for having sex with a man. But I doubt whether Romans would think much of women engaging in lesbian sex between social peers, or maintaining a lesbian relationship over many years. Roman social norms would never permit women to "marry" and thus move out from under some man's authority. Thus same-sex marriage for either Gays or Lesbians would not be traditional in the religio Romana.
>
> However, I would hope we as individuals and as a community have grown to respect one another more over these many centuries. What does it mean to be married? Well, obviously I am not going to accept some biblical idea on which the laws of most of Western Civilization is based today. Women subservient to men for the sole purpose of procreation and in order to keep them under control. Sorry, I find the notion of "barefoot in the winter and pregnant in the summer" to be very offensive.
>
> The traditional role of a woman in a Roman household was that of Domina. She was every bit equal to her husband, superior to him even in some sense while in the house, where he was the master outdoors, but she could still wield authority on the family's estate. In fact the State depended on strong, independent women to maintain the farms and estates when men were off to war. The Domina tended to all of the family's cultus Deorum within the household itself. Thus she was primarily responsible for the cultus for the Penates, Vesta, and other domestic Gods and Goddesses, including the cultus for the family Lares. She was the one who protected the family, through her relationship with the Gods, anointing the house, placing charms at the windows and doors to keep out disease, ill-rumors, and evil. She was primarily the one who cared for the sick, or saw that they were cared for, often by invoking the Gods or by visiting the temples, where she might also acquire herbal medicines for her household. The Domina began each morning with the household gathered for religious ceremonies, the husband performed them at the main meal of the day. She was the last to bed, tending to all things, and most specifically to the family's hearth at the end of each day. It is this role as the center of the family's religious life that certain features of Roman marriage ceremonies take place. No husband could bless his own house, because he was necessarily too involved in public affairs. He needed a wife to intervene on his behalf with the Gods in special ways that most men were thought unable to do. Most men, but not all.
>
> It is well known that men were prohibited from entering the templum of the Bona Dea. Most men, that is. However, Ovid does says that some men, "chosen by the Goddess Herself," were permitted to enter. Who? Eunuchs? I doubt the Romans would mean that; eunuchs were foreign and not thought of as men. Homosexuals or effeminate heterosexuals? Possibly, as that could be the meaning of having been "chosen" as such men are thought to be in other cultures. Priests, shamans, and the like are generally dressed in a costume that resembles that of women, since women are often taken to be closer to the Gods than men, and those men who are close to the Gods are therefore designated in this way as apart from other men.
>
> In any marriage, I think it is more a matter of a partnership where each have their individual roles to play, but where both must be able to exchange roles when needed. It doesn't really matter today whether it is the man or the woman, or either partner in a Lesbian or Gay relationship, that takes on which roles. Both must be fulfilling their parts in the relationship and fulfilling each other. And it is nobody else's business. As long as one or both partners take on the role of Domina and preserve a cultus Deorum for their household, i can approve of marriage between Gays and Lesbians.
>
> For us, I think we should leave the matter to the local communities we create to decide whether they will perform same-sex marriages, in accordance with local laws. We are not going to force communities to perform such ceremonies, as they are not traditionally Roman anyway, but neither should we permit narrow-mindedness to prohibit such ceremonies from our modern community of cultores Deorum.
>
> For some perspective, I recommend all cultores Deorum to read "Lover's Legends: The Gay Greek Myths," by Andrew Calimach, 2002. I was one of those asked by the author to offer a review of his book, and I have been recommending ever since. As a heterosexual male I found the book fascinating and I thought Andrew had handled his topic extremely well. It is not a "gay" book as such, but sought to restore the myths to a perspective on homosexuality more in keeping with the ancient Greeks than with the Victorians who alterred the stories for Christian tastes. It may help some here begin to move away from the Judeo-Christian-Muslim perspective that infects society with its prejudices, and develop a new perspective based more on the ancient cultures that our ancestors knew.
>
>
> Christina, there are two cultures known to practice polygamy where one woman marries multiple men. One is in southern India where she marries a group of brothers, and it is practiced so that the family land is not divided up between sons. It is not a good arrangement for women. One husband is bad enough; divorce doesn't exist so the brothers basicly gangbang her to death when they want a young woman. Polygamy with more than one woman married to a man is accepted in some cultures, again for the benefit of men. I suppose I wouldn't object if the women were old enough to actually choose to enter such a marriage, were not coerced in anyway, and it was legal under local law. But that has rarely been the case. Paraguay, after the Great Paraguan War, was given special papal dispensation to allow men to marry two women in an effort to restore that country's population. In that case women controlled their situation. Polygamy is practiced today alongside with coerced marriage of young girls as sex slaves, not really as wives. That is not to say there are not healthy polygamous marriages or that polygamy is naturally exploitive. Any form of marriage can be abused and exploitive. So while I might be open to the possibility, I know the reality does not meet with my approval.
>
> The general rule for us is to abide with local custom. Just as with same-sex marriage, if it is locally legal, then our cultores can legally participate in such marriages. Missouri does not have legal polygamous marriage. Try moving to Malasia, Indonesia, or Uganda.
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Christina Moseley" <cheetahgirl5@> wrote:
> >
> > What about polyamorous relationships? Me and my boyfriend are getting
> > married in the Roman marriage first, then in the state marriage. However,
> > my boyfriend was sure that we can fit another person in there but in
> > Missouri there is a law against bigamy.
> >
> > On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 18:35:20 -0500, Cato <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> >
> > > Cato Maiori sal.
> > >
> > > If we already have the ancient ceremony of the actual Roman
> > > confarreatio, why does Piscinus need to "work" on it? Wouldn't it be
> > > more appropriate to use it instead of making something up?
> > >
> > > Vale,
> > >
> > > Cato
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Salve Nero;
> > >> I'm gay and I can tell you the PM Piscinus is absolutely fine with gay
> > >> marriage. So absolutely, of course you don't need a priest for Roman
> > >> marriage at all. Mostly marriage in Rome was by cohabitation. Usus.In
> > >> ancient Rome when C. Livia married G. Titinius she was still C. Livia,
> > >> the 2 partners kept their respective names. The children took
> > >> the father's name.
> > >>
> > >> In the CP Piscinus is just working on confarreatio, a special kind of
> > >> marriage ceremony it's for all those couples who desire it. I hope
> > >> this is helpful, I'm sure the PM will be happy to discuss this. Me too,
> > >> as Flaminica Carmentalis I have a deep interest in seeing the next
> > >> generation of Roman children! adoption was a
> > >> normative part of Roman family life!
> > >> di tibi faveant
> > >> M. Hortensia Maior
> > >> Flaminica Carmentalis
> > >>
> > >> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gnaea Livia Ocella" <lbciddio@>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > Salve, Nero,
> > >> >
> > >> > I was just thinking about this a few days ago while reading Juvenal's
> > >> second satire. He seems to have taken a decidedly negative view of the
> > >> possibility of gay marriage, but I must not be alone in hoping that
> > >> Nova Romans are a bit more accommodating and accepting... though the
> > >> tweaking of an ancient form of marriage dictated by very traditional
> > >> religious regulations may be a more serious matter.
> > >> >
> > >> > I am eager to hear the answers to Nero's questions from someone with
> > >> more knowledge of the Religio and the marriage rites than I. My own
> > >> knowledge of Roman marriage is limited to the leges put in place during
> > >> Augustus' time.
> > >> >
> > >> > Vale, et valete,
> > >> > Livia Ocella
> > >> >
> > >> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Nero" <rikudemyx@> wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Salvete Omnes,
> > >> > > With the talk about the Confarreationes in August, I was curious
> > >> about gay marriages in our community. I doubt that I'm the only gay
> > >> citizen and so I'm sure that the topic must flit through some minds.
> > >> Would a priest sanction a gay union? Which of the two would gain the
> > >> other's titles? Would the religio's ceremony stay the same or would
> > >> some tweaking have to be done?
> > >> > > DVIC
> > >> > > Nero
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79039 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: Marriage and divorce in NR
Salve Auriga;
auguri auguri! What wonderful news, this is a good month! I wish you and Brutus every happiness; may the gods favour you both in all things!
Cannot wait to see the photos.
Maior


>
> I just married the man of my dreams, Marcus Valerius Brutus in an olive garden in a traditional confferatio ceremony. It was awesome! I hope we can post photos/videos soon. I don't have anything, since I was so busy, but it was great fun!
>
> L. Antonia Auriga
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "marcushoratius" <MHoratius@> wrote:
> >
> > M. Moravius Piscinus Quiritibus, cultoribus Deorum et omnibus s. p. d.
> >
> > Ancient Romans had different forms of marriage. The one generally used had both families come together and involved the transfer of the bride from her father's authority and from her mother to come under the authority of her husband's pater familias. The pater familias would act as auspex to consider whether the Gods favored the marriage. The bride and groom married one another in front of witnesses, exchanging symbols of their roles in the marriage and sharing a meal. Sometimes witnessing the marriage even went to the point that the marriage bed was set in the atrium of the front of the house and first night was spent there while the festivities of the families continued. However, the marriage was not consumated until the following night, after the bride had been conducted through ceremonies by the women of the groom's family. How elaborate or simple a ceremony might be depended on the wealth and status of the families, but these were not formal affairs as we might hold today.
> >
> > An exception is the special ceremony called a confarreatio. It was essentially the same kind of ceremony between two families, but a little more elaborate in certain features. The bride and groom married each other. Sacerdotes were there to guide them in the ceremony and witness it, but basically the bride and groom performed the marriage ritual. Special words were said at the time when the bride and groom shared their meal. Among the ten witnesses required for a marriage in a confarreatio these had to include the pontifex maximus, flamen Dialis and the flamenica Dialis. This form of marriage was not restricted to patricians alone. We know that before the XII Tabulae that patricians and plebeians intermarried and used such ceremonies, and that later with the decline of the number of patrician gentes, confarreationes became more common rather than less.
> >
> > Divorce was readily available to Romans. How one divorced depended on the kind of marriage one had. There was even a ceremony of divorce, supposedly performed in some reversal of the wedding ceremony. However, no divorce was allowed from a confarreatio. That was one of the features of a confarreatio that differed from other Roman marriages.
> >
> >
> > For Nova Roma, the religio Romana has been legally recognized in the United States as a religious tradition. Communities and temples have been incorporated, court rulings have recognized the religio Romana in cases involving marriages and child custody. We cultores Deorum Populi Romani actually have more rights in the US than Gays and Lesbians in most states.
> >
> > The natural step is now to be recognized in another country. Canada is our most likely choice. They have a process for doing so. One requirement is that we provide the provincial authorites with a marriage ceremony that we use. And of course what we submit will have to conform to both Canadian law and our own traditions. What we submit does not have to be a confarreatio, and I am thinking that we might submit two marriage ceremonies as recognized by our tradition.
> >
> > As in the US where the laws vary from state to state, marriage laws vary between Canadian provinces. Our main problem in Canada for us is that there are so few cultores Deorum, but that won't necessarily harm our opportunity to be recognized in Canada. We would choose a province in which same-sex marriages are legal. We would then become one of the few religious organizations providing marriage ceremonies for Gays and Lesbians. The process of being recognized in Canada takes five years, so with our lack of cultores there, providing this service for a select community beyond our own is a consideration to improve our chances of attaining recognition. Once we were, then we would be an international religious organization and might be able to gain recognition in other countries as well. It is a very difficult process.
> >
> > My personal views on same-sex marriage is that I approve of it on moral and legal grounds. I cannot buy the argument, made by my neighbor along with others, that allowing Gays to marry will somehow threaten my marriage. My second marriage will celebrate its thirty-seventh anniversary next Wednesday (yes, I was married once before, for some months when I was seventeen before my wife and child died.) I would rather have young Gays living next door to me than those Born Again Christians I got now as neighbors, and whose idea of marriage is that a woman should be submissive to her husband. That attitude is more repulsive to me than any consensual acts between adults. I didn't marry to have a sex slave, and I wouldn't be married to the same woman for so long if that was all our relationship was based on. There is no morality in depriving Gays and Lesbians from sharing in loving relationship and companionship. And as far as treating anyone as second class citizens with fewer legal rights than others, I am strongly opposed to legislation that outlaws same-sex marriages.
> >
> > There is some mention of same-sex marriages having taken place in ancient Rome. They were not legally recognized. They were not approved socially in most cases. Homosexual sex was approved, under certain circumstances, as it was considered to be natural and one always had to abide with one's nature. But homosexual preference was thought unnatural and not generally approved. Roman men were expected to exhibit virility, in the Roman sense of the meaning, even if they did have homosexual preferences. Effeminate heterosexuals would be looked down upon moreso than a 'virile' homosexual. You might look at transvestites in India today to see how they are treated and get some idea of how Romans would have thought, too.
> >
> > For women, we know so little really. Lesbianism would probably have been considered natural. Nothing would be thought wrong of a woman being serviced in her desires by someone of a lower class, whether a man or woman. It wouldn't even be considered unfaithfulness to her husband to have a slave provide sexual pleasure to her, just a master demanding her privileges. Only between social peers might a woman be faulted for having sex with a man. But I doubt whether Romans would think much of women engaging in lesbian sex between social peers, or maintaining a lesbian relationship over many years. Roman social norms would never permit women to "marry" and thus move out from under some man's authority. Thus same-sex marriage for either Gays or Lesbians would not be traditional in the religio Romana.
> >
> > However, I would hope we as individuals and as a community have grown to respect one another more over these many centuries. What does it mean to be married? Well, obviously I am not going to accept some biblical idea on which the laws of most of Western Civilization is based today. Women subservient to men for the sole purpose of procreation and in order to keep them under control. Sorry, I find the notion of "barefoot in the winter and pregnant in the summer" to be very offensive.
> >
> > The traditional role of a woman in a Roman household was that of Domina. She was every bit equal to her husband, superior to him even in some sense while in the house, where he was the master outdoors, but she could still wield authority on the family's estate. In fact the State depended on strong, independent women to maintain the farms and estates when men were off to war. The Domina tended to all of the family's cultus Deorum within the household itself. Thus she was primarily responsible for the cultus for the Penates, Vesta, and other domestic Gods and Goddesses, including the cultus for the family Lares. She was the one who protected the family, through her relationship with the Gods, anointing the house, placing charms at the windows and doors to keep out disease, ill-rumors, and evil. She was primarily the one who cared for the sick, or saw that they were cared for, often by invoking the Gods or by visiting the temples, where she might also acquire herbal medicines for her household. The Domina began each morning with the household gathered for religious ceremonies, the husband performed them at the main meal of the day. She was the last to bed, tending to all things, and most specifically to the family's hearth at the end of each day. It is this role as the center of the family's religious life that certain features of Roman marriage ceremonies take place. No husband could bless his own house, because he was necessarily too involved in public affairs. He needed a wife to intervene on his behalf with the Gods in special ways that most men were thought unable to do. Most men, but not all.
> >
> > It is well known that men were prohibited from entering the templum of the Bona Dea. Most men, that is. However, Ovid does says that some men, "chosen by the Goddess Herself," were permitted to enter. Who? Eunuchs? I doubt the Romans would mean that; eunuchs were foreign and not thought of as men. Homosexuals or effeminate heterosexuals? Possibly, as that could be the meaning of having been "chosen" as such men are thought to be in other cultures. Priests, shamans, and the like are generally dressed in a costume that resembles that of women, since women are often taken to be closer to the Gods than men, and those men who are close to the Gods are therefore designated in this way as apart from other men.
> >
> > In any marriage, I think it is more a matter of a partnership where each have their individual roles to play, but where both must be able to exchange roles when needed. It doesn't really matter today whether it is the man or the woman, or either partner in a Lesbian or Gay relationship, that takes on which roles. Both must be fulfilling their parts in the relationship and fulfilling each other. And it is nobody else's business. As long as one or both partners take on the role of Domina and preserve a cultus Deorum for their household, i can approve of marriage between Gays and Lesbians.
> >
> > For us, I think we should leave the matter to the local communities we create to decide whether they will perform same-sex marriages, in accordance with local laws. We are not going to force communities to perform such ceremonies, as they are not traditionally Roman anyway, but neither should we permit narrow-mindedness to prohibit such ceremonies from our modern community of cultores Deorum.
> >
> > For some perspective, I recommend all cultores Deorum to read "Lover's Legends: The Gay Greek Myths," by Andrew Calimach, 2002. I was one of those asked by the author to offer a review of his book, and I have been recommending ever since. As a heterosexual male I found the book fascinating and I thought Andrew had handled his topic extremely well. It is not a "gay" book as such, but sought to restore the myths to a perspective on homosexuality more in keeping with the ancient Greeks than with the Victorians who alterred the stories for Christian tastes. It may help some here begin to move away from the Judeo-Christian-Muslim perspective that infects society with its prejudices, and develop a new perspective based more on the ancient cultures that our ancestors knew.
> >
> >
> > Christina, there are two cultures known to practice polygamy where one woman marries multiple men. One is in southern India where she marries a group of brothers, and it is practiced so that the family land is not divided up between sons. It is not a good arrangement for women. One husband is bad enough; divorce doesn't exist so the brothers basicly gangbang her to death when they want a young woman. Polygamy with more than one woman married to a man is accepted in some cultures, again for the benefit of men. I suppose I wouldn't object if the women were old enough to actually choose to enter such a marriage, were not coerced in anyway, and it was legal under local law. But that has rarely been the case. Paraguay, after the Great Paraguan War, was given special papal dispensation to allow men to marry two women in an effort to restore that country's population. In that case women controlled their situation. Polygamy is practiced today alongside with coerced marriage of young girls as sex slaves, not really as wives. That is not to say there are not healthy polygamous marriages or that polygamy is naturally exploitive. Any form of marriage can be abused and exploitive. So while I might be open to the possibility, I know the reality does not meet with my approval.
> >
> > The general rule for us is to abide with local custom. Just as with same-sex marriage, if it is locally legal, then our cultores can legally participate in such marriages. Missouri does not have legal polygamous marriage. Try moving to Malasia, Indonesia, or Uganda.
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Christina Moseley" <cheetahgirl5@> wrote:
> > >
> > > What about polyamorous relationships? Me and my boyfriend are getting
> > > married in the Roman marriage first, then in the state marriage. However,
> > > my boyfriend was sure that we can fit another person in there but in
> > > Missouri there is a law against bigamy.
> > >
> > > On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 18:35:20 -0500, Cato <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Cato Maiori sal.
> > > >
> > > > If we already have the ancient ceremony of the actual Roman
> > > > confarreatio, why does Piscinus need to "work" on it? Wouldn't it be
> > > > more appropriate to use it instead of making something up?
> > > >
> > > > Vale,
> > > >
> > > > Cato
> > > >
> > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> Salve Nero;
> > > >> I'm gay and I can tell you the PM Piscinus is absolutely fine with gay
> > > >> marriage. So absolutely, of course you don't need a priest for Roman
> > > >> marriage at all. Mostly marriage in Rome was by cohabitation. Usus.In
> > > >> ancient Rome when C. Livia married G. Titinius she was still C. Livia,
> > > >> the 2 partners kept their respective names. The children took
> > > >> the father's name.
> > > >>
> > > >> In the CP Piscinus is just working on confarreatio, a special kind of
> > > >> marriage ceremony it's for all those couples who desire it. I hope
> > > >> this is helpful, I'm sure the PM will be happy to discuss this. Me too,
> > > >> as Flaminica Carmentalis I have a deep interest in seeing the next
> > > >> generation of Roman children! adoption was a
> > > >> normative part of Roman family life!
> > > >> di tibi faveant
> > > >> M. Hortensia Maior
> > > >> Flaminica Carmentalis
> > > >>
> > > >> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gnaea Livia Ocella" <lbciddio@>
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Salve, Nero,
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I was just thinking about this a few days ago while reading Juvenal's
> > > >> second satire. He seems to have taken a decidedly negative view of the
> > > >> possibility of gay marriage, but I must not be alone in hoping that
> > > >> Nova Romans are a bit more accommodating and accepting... though the
> > > >> tweaking of an ancient form of marriage dictated by very traditional
> > > >> religious regulations may be a more serious matter.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I am eager to hear the answers to Nero's questions from someone with
> > > >> more knowledge of the Religio and the marriage rites than I. My own
> > > >> knowledge of Roman marriage is limited to the leges put in place during
> > > >> Augustus' time.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Vale, et valete,
> > > >> > Livia Ocella
> > > >> >
> > > >> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Nero" <rikudemyx@> wrote:
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Salvete Omnes,
> > > >> > > With the talk about the Confarreationes in August, I was curious
> > > >> about gay marriages in our community. I doubt that I'm the only gay
> > > >> citizen and so I'm sure that the topic must flit through some minds.
> > > >> Would a priest sanction a gay union? Which of the two would gain the
> > > >> other's titles? Would the religio's ceremony stay the same or would
> > > >> some tweaking have to be done?
> > > >> > > DVIC
> > > >> > > Nero
> > > >> > >
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
> > >
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79040 From: mcorvvs Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Tribunician report for July session of the Senate
Tribunus Plebis Marcus Octavius Corvus Quiritibus S.P.D.

Citizens of Nova Roma,

Here is the Tribunician report of the Senate session of July 19 – July 25,
2763

The votes have been tallied and the results are as follows:

Formal debate ended at Friday 00.01 hrs CET Roma, 23 July 2010 2763.
Voting began at Friday 23 July 2010 at 00.02 hrs CET Roma 2763
and was concluded at Sunday 25 July 2010 at 00.02 CET Roma 2763.

The following XX Senators cast their votes on time. They are referred to by
their initials which are listed in alphabetical order (with the exception of the
presiding magistrate who will be listed first):

*KFBQ: K. Fabius Buteo Quintilianus, Presiding Magistrate
C0-presiding magistrates:
Max. Valeria Messallina, Tribuna Plebis
C. Curius Saturninus, Tribunus Plebis
C. Aquillius Rota, Tribunus Plebis
M. Octavius Corvus, Tribunus Plebis


*ATS: A. Tullia Scholastica
*CCS: C. Curius Saturninus
*CEC: C. Equitius Cato
*CnEM: Cn. Equitius Marinus
*CPL: C. Popillius Laenas
*EmCF: Em. Curia Finnica
*FrAC: Fr. Apulus Caesar
*KFBM: K. Fabius Buteo Modianus
*MAM: M. Arminius Maior
*MCC: M. Curiatius Complutensis
*MHM: M. Hortensia Maior
*MIP: M. Iulius Perusianus
*MIS: M. Iulius Severus
*MLA: M. Lucretius Agricola
*MMPH: M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus
*QSP: Q. Suetonius Paulinus
*TiGP.: Ti. Galerius Paulinus
*TIS: T. Iulius Sabinus

The following Senator (I) voted by proxy:
*ArnMA: Arn. Moravia Aurelia (Proxy vote delivered by K. Fabius Buteo
Quintilianus)


The following Senatores (X) did not vote:

*CFD: C. Flavius Diocletianus
*CMM: C. Marius Merullus
*CnIC: Cn. Iulius Caesar
*CVP: C. Vipsanius Agrippa
*DIPI: Dec. Iunius Palladius Invictus
*FlGA: Fl. Galerius Aurelianus
*LCSF: L. Cornelius Sulla Felix
*MMA M. Minucius Audens
*PMA: P. Memmius Albucius
*QFM: Q. Fabius Maximus


_________________________________________

"VTI ROGAS" indicates a vote in favor of an item,
"ANTIQVO" is a vote against,
"ABSTINEO" is an open abstention.
__________________________________________

All decisions were made with a majority of Uti Rogas votes.

Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis.

Correction of the Constitution IV, a:
"Elections of the ordinarii shall take place no later than December
15th, and newly-elected officials shall assume their offices on
January 1st."

Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis.

"Elections of the ordinarii shall take place no later than December
1st, and newly-elected officials shall assume their offices on January
1st, except Plebeian Aediles and Tribunes of the Plebs who shall assume
their offices on December 10th."

UTI ROGAS: 17
ANTIQUO: 0
ABSTINEO: 3

The result of the voting is Item I PASSED

KFBM: On both items I vote UTI ROGAS.

KFBQ: Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. UTI
ROGAS

MHM: Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. UTI
ROGAS
CnEM: I Uti Rogas
MLA: Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. UTI
ROGAS. Although I am a patrician myself I am happy to lend my vote to this fine
lex which moves us closer to historical practice and I think may provide a help
in smoothing our annual transition of magistrates.
MMPH: Item I. For the proposed Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis.
ADSENTIOR UTI ROGAS
CPL: I Uti Rogas
TiGP: Uti Rogas on all three agenda items.
*Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
ATS: Item I: Uti rogas. This is long overdue, and should bring us closer to
ancient Roman practice.
MIS: Item I. For the proposed Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis.
ADSENTIOR VTI ROGAS
CCS: Item I: Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis Uti
rogas.

TIS: Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. Uti
rogas.

*Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
ArnMA: Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. UTI
ROGAS

MCC: Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. UTI
ROGAS

QSP: > I Uti Rogas>

MIP: Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. VTI
ROGAS

EmCF: Item I: Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis Uti
rogas.

FrAC: Item I1. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. VTI
ROGAS

CEC: Item I - VTI ROGAS

*Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
MAM: Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. Uti
Rogas.

_________________________________________


Item II. The IT-project

The Senate appoints Kristoffer From (formerly known within Nova Roma
as Senator Titus Octavius Pius Ahenobarbus) as the programmer who will
develop and set up a new IT-system, consisting of an automated
election-system and a new citizen database with tools for our
magistrates and citizens.

The Senate affirms that the cost for the IT-project executed by
KristofferFrom will be paid for with 10 000 USD.

The Senate requests the project to be completed in time for the fall
elections in November 2010, but understands that if the new system is
not ready in time, Kristoffer From will arrange the elections and run-
off elections in the current system. Kristoffer From will, in addition
to the fall elections and run-off elections, set up no more than one
session in each Comitia each month during his work on the project.

The Senate orders the CIO to choose the most advantageous pay model
for Nova Roma, either the mentioned Swedish NPO or another solution.
Guarantees by the CIO will be given to assure that any chosen solution
is irreproachable. A registered accountant who will check on the
correctness may need separate pay though.

Kristoffer From will leave reports on the progress of the project to
the CIO who will share these reports with the Senate. There will be
five such short reports, these reports will be sent to the CIO at the
following occasions and when the following milestones are completed
(but probably not working together yet):

1. Database (the backbone of the new site)
2. Access control (a basic website with an authentication method)
3. Server-side daemon (to enable automation of time-sensitive tasks)
4. Election system (automated running of elections)
5. Administrative tools (so magistrates can access the system)
6. Documentation (so Kristoffer is not the only one who knows how it
works)

These milestones may be reported in any order and they only have a
partial connection to the payment of Kristoffer From. The reports will
serve the purpose of keeping the Senate informed of progress of the
IT-project. Still, the work is too complicated to connect the
milestones too strictly to payments.

Kristoffer From may report on the milestones in any order, as they are
reached. The last payment will however not be made until the CIO has
stated that the work is finished.

The Senate orders the CFO or someone appointed/approved by the Senate
instead of a CFO to immediately set aside the full 10 000 USD and upon
the start of the project pay 2 500 USD for salary, social costs and
taxes for Kristoffer From. The next payment of 2500 will be paid as
soon as Kristoffer From reports on one milestone and a third payment
of 2 500 USD will be paid as soon as Kristoffer From reports on a
second milestone. When the project is completed to the satisfaction of
the CIO, the remaining 2 500 USD will be paid according to the chosen
pay-model.

Kristoffer From will do after-work checks and surveillance checks for
at least three months to see to it that the new IT-system really
works in actual use. Nova Roma may also be asked to assist in
performing tests of the system during this period.


Uti rogas: 16
Antiquo: 0
Abstineo: 4
The result of the voting is Item II PASSED


KFBM: On both items I vote UTI ROGAS.

KFBQ: Item II. The IT-project UTI ROGAS

MHM: Item II. The IT-project UTI ROGAS
CnEM: I Uti Rogas
MLA: Item II. The IT-project UTI ROGAS. I have had a closer view than most as
this project has gone ahead. Saturninus has done a top-rate job and I am happy
to lend my vote in support of this long-overdue measure.

MMPH: Item II. For the IT-project ADSENTIOR UTI ROGAS CPL: I Uti Rogas
CPL: I Uti Rogas
TiGP: Uti Rogas on all three agenda items.
*Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
ATS: Item II: Uti rogas. It seems that we have reached the point where it is
better to start anew than attempt to repair the existing programs or whatever
despite the expense. Appliances and automobiles have similar problems; we
should not expect our IT infrastructure to last forever, no matter how well
maintained.
MIS: Item II. For the IT-project MIS: ADSENTIOR VTI ROGAS
CCS: Item II: The IT-project Uti rogas. This is the most important improvement
into our infrastructure ever since first Album Civium and Cista.

TIS: Item II. The IT-project TIS: Uti rogas.

*Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
ArnMA: Item II. The IT-project UTI ROGAS

MCC: Item II. IT-project UTI ROGAS

QSP: > I Uti Rogas>

MIP: Item Item II. The IT-project VTI ROGAS

EmCF: Item II: The IT-project Uti rogas. This is an very drastic improvement
that can be no longer delayed. The existing system is completely out of date,
poorly documented and there is only one individual who is actually able to use
it somehow. Wihout a new IT-system there will be no further elections.

FrAC: Item Item II. The IT-project ABSTINEO As professionist of this commercial
area, I would like to read the concrete project before to give my approval. The
budget in fact is very high and it would be analyzed by a pool of experts.

CEC: Item I - VTI ROGAS

*Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
MAM: Item II. The IT-project Uti Rogas.

_____________________________________________

Item III. Dictatorship

The Senate of Nova Roma, having convened in an emergency session,
considers that:

Whereas the current situation in Nova Roma threatens the very
existence of Nova Roma both as a nation and as a membership
organization, and,

Whereas these crises in our organization and corporation, our
finances, and our technical problems result from many causes that must
be addressed so as to avoid Nova Roma from harm, as well as to ensure
the orderly and enjoyable continuation of Nova Roma, and,

Whereas any solutions to these present crises should and must be done
in accordance with the governing bodies of law,

Do we, the Senate of Nova Roma, by the vote of a majority, hereby
appoint Gnaeus Equitius Marinus to the office of Dictator, and invest
in him complete auctoritas and imperium for a period of no more than
six months, trusting in him to resolve the present crises and take
whatever steps he deems necessary to prevent future harm to the Res
Publica Populi Novae Romae.

The Senate conveys resolution of the following tasks, although not
limited to these alone, to Cn. Equitius Marinus:

To oversee the rewriting of corporate bylaws for Nova Roma, Inc

To have the Constitution and subordinate laws reviewed for the purpose
of amending or replacing them as are necessary to protect the
respublica from harm

To resolve the IT issues that threaten our website and on which the
functions of the respublica rely

To restructure voting procedures to make them robust against loss of
technical programs or equipment.

To simplify the magisterial structure to provide fewer magistrates
with better defined roles.


In the name of the Senate and the People of the Nova Roma, and in the
sight of the Gods and Goddesses of the People of Nova Roma, under the
provision of the Constitution IV.B.1, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus,
Censorius is hereby appointed Dictator and Magister Populi of Nova Roma.

Uti rogas: 16
Antiquo: 1
Abstineo: 3
The result of the voting is Item III PASSED


KFBM: Rather, on all three items I vote UTI ROGAS.

KFBQ: Item III. Dictatorship UTI ROGAS

MHM: Item Item III. Dictatorship UTI ROGAS
CnEM: III Uti Rogas, and may the Dii Immortales help me
MLA: Item III. Dictatorship UTI ROGAS. Senator and Censorius Marinus is one of
the very few whom I could support in this position. In deciding my vote I also
consider the manifest desire of the people to put ourselves back on the right
track.
MMPH: Item III. ADSENTIOR UTI ROGAS
CPL: I Uti Rogas
TiGP: Now as to the proposed dictatorship. When the Roman appointed a dictator
armies were at their gates.
When the Romans appointed their first dictator there was an effort under way to
return the kings to power.
A week or so ago I stated on one of the lists that I would not support the
appointment of a dictator even if I was proposed as the dictator. My opposition
to a dictator has NOTHING to do with Senator Marinus or any other person who
might have been nominated. It is based on my belief that while we have problems
we do not have a crisis.
I do not see anything that has changed and I vote NO on the proposed
appointment of a dictator.
*Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
ATS: Item III. Ut pollicita sum, tertia discessio sequitur. Iterum meá
quidem sententiá, interdum aliqua facienda, etsi injucunda. Malim Novam
Romam rixis omnino carere; malim omnia sine pervicaciis et obicibus esse si quid
alicui displiceat. Infelicissimé, haec ita non sunt, et mutanda.
Dictaturae mihi displicent, sed ut videtur, nunc uná nobis opus est.
Dolendum'st; sed quae cum ita sint, optio alia abest. Vir quem proposuisti
bonus est, et eum honestum arbitror. Assentior, etsi animo sollicito nec
laetitiam capiens, ut rogas.
MIS: Item III. Dictatorship MIS: ADSENTIOR VTI ROGAS
CCS: Item III: Dictatorship Uti rogas. It is time to save the republic. It is
time to put politics aside and do real things. If accomplishing it means to vote
for dictatorship, I'll do it. As a Roman citizen, magistrate and senator,
Marinus has my support.

TIS: Item III. Uti rogas.

*Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
ArnMA: Item III.Dictatorship. UTI ROGAS

MCC: Item III. Dictatorship. UTI ROGAS

QSP: > III Antiquo

MIP: Item III. Dictatorship VTI ROGAS

EmCF: Item III: Dictatorship Uti rogas.

FrAC: Item III. Dictatorship VTI ROGAS I don't like the dictatorship, my own
personal political opinion would drive me to more democratical and popular kinds
of governments. But the situation of NR is bad, I'm looking the organization
from a more far point of view and I find again a disorganized group divided by
superficial discussions and political games. I hope the good Marinus would
concentrate his efforts to find a new identity to NR, a real mission in a real
world for the members, concrete and "unvirtual" opportunities and projects. The
way taken by NR during the last year is the worst road, we need a change of
direction. Marinus, please, do it!

CEC: ITEM III - Although I do not go to the extreme that Gn. Iulius Caesar does,
I
cannot help but agree that each "crisis" we are called upon to deal now with was
brought up in one form or another and those who did so were mocked or ignored
because of political convenience. I think this because I was, of course, one of
them; exempli gratia, I have advocated for the by-laws change for *years* now,
offering my proposals repeatedly and simply being ignored. Our compliance with
Maine law was brought up repeatedly (again, by myself among others) - only to be
scoffed at and ignored because those in power disliked the messengers rather
than paying attention to the message. So my personal feelings urge me to refuse
to allow those in power to stand back and make someone else responsible for
cleaning up the messes they have made.

Yet, the Romans themselves did not look with horror at the idea of a dictator,
probably because they had no experience with our common modern understanding of
dictatorial government, with Hitler, Stalin, Tito, Ceaucescu, Peron, Pol Pot,
Castro, etc., standing in our collective modern consciousness as the epitome of
governments marked by arbitrary cruelty and inhumanity. The Romans appointed
dictators not only to carry out wars but often to simply get a particular job
done: to fill vacancies in the Senate, to preside over public games, to create
holidays...even just to drive a nail into the door of the temple of Iuppiter
O.M. in times of plague. They did their job, and unless they were a Sulla or a
Marius or a Caesar, when it was finished they simply stepped back down into
regular public life.

So while I do believe that this series of "crises" has been manufactured by
willful ignorance or blatant disregard on the part of some of those who have
held the reins of power over the past two years, I cannot justify standing in
the way of what is apparently the only solution that will hopefully make - force
- those who hold power to shut up and actually listen for a change. The end
does *not* justify the means, but simple dislike for the means does not make
them evil, nor does it justify accepting a crippling status quo, either.

VTI ROGAS

*Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
MAM: Item III. Dictatorship Uti Rogas.

_____________________________________________
The following senators announced their desire to withdraw their votes
after voting:

C. Equitius Cato
Ti. Galerius Paulinus
T. Iulius Sabinus

Normal rules of Parliamentary Procedure do not allow for members of a
voting quorum to withdraw once the quorum has been made. The legality
of these withdrawls is in question.


Tribuni:

M. Octavius Corvus (reporting)
Maxima Valeria Messallina
C. Curius Saturnius
C. Aquilius Rota

I thank my colleague Maxima Valeria Messallina and Senator Marcus Lucretius
Agricola for advise and help while preparing this, such a difficult report.

Valete bene in pace Deorum,

M. Octavius Corvus
Tribunus Plebis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79041 From: Gaius Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: Tribunician report for July session of the Senate
Salvete Omnes,

This report is in error. I withdrew my votes on all three items because of the uncertainty of the legality of the session.

Valete,

C. Popillius Laenas

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "mcorvvs" <mcorvvs@...> wrote:
>
> Tribunus Plebis Marcus Octavius Corvus Quiritibus S.P.D.
>
> Citizens of Nova Roma,
>
> Here is the Tribunician report of the Senate session of July 19 – July 25,
> 2763
>
> The votes have been tallied and the results are as follows:
>
> Formal debate ended at Friday 00.01 hrs CET Roma, 23 July 2010 2763.
> Voting began at Friday 23 July 2010 at 00.02 hrs CET Roma 2763
> and was concluded at Sunday 25 July 2010 at 00.02 CET Roma 2763.
>
> The following XX Senators cast their votes on time. They are referred to by
> their initials which are listed in alphabetical order (with the exception of the
> presiding magistrate who will be listed first):
>
> *KFBQ: K. Fabius Buteo Quintilianus, Presiding Magistrate
> C0-presiding magistrates:
> Max. Valeria Messallina, Tribuna Plebis
> C. Curius Saturninus, Tribunus Plebis
> C. Aquillius Rota, Tribunus Plebis
> M. Octavius Corvus, Tribunus Plebis
>
>
> *ATS: A. Tullia Scholastica
> *CCS: C. Curius Saturninus
> *CEC: C. Equitius Cato
> *CnEM: Cn. Equitius Marinus
> *CPL: C. Popillius Laenas
> *EmCF: Em. Curia Finnica
> *FrAC: Fr. Apulus Caesar
> *KFBM: K. Fabius Buteo Modianus
> *MAM: M. Arminius Maior
> *MCC: M. Curiatius Complutensis
> *MHM: M. Hortensia Maior
> *MIP: M. Iulius Perusianus
> *MIS: M. Iulius Severus
> *MLA: M. Lucretius Agricola
> *MMPH: M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus
> *QSP: Q. Suetonius Paulinus
> *TiGP.: Ti. Galerius Paulinus
> *TIS: T. Iulius Sabinus
>
> The following Senator (I) voted by proxy:
> *ArnMA: Arn. Moravia Aurelia (Proxy vote delivered by K. Fabius Buteo
> Quintilianus)
>
>
> The following Senatores (X) did not vote:
>
> *CFD: C. Flavius Diocletianus
> *CMM: C. Marius Merullus
> *CnIC: Cn. Iulius Caesar
> *CVP: C. Vipsanius Agrippa
> *DIPI: Dec. Iunius Palladius Invictus
> *FlGA: Fl. Galerius Aurelianus
> *LCSF: L. Cornelius Sulla Felix
> *MMA M. Minucius Audens
> *PMA: P. Memmius Albucius
> *QFM: Q. Fabius Maximus
>
>
> _________________________________________
>
> "VTI ROGAS" indicates a vote in favor of an item,
> "ANTIQVO" is a vote against,
> "ABSTINEO" is an open abstention.
> __________________________________________
>
> All decisions were made with a majority of Uti Rogas votes.
>
> Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis.
>
> Correction of the Constitution IV, a:
> "Elections of the ordinarii shall take place no later than December
> 15th, and newly-elected officials shall assume their offices on
> January 1st."
>
> Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis.
>
> "Elections of the ordinarii shall take place no later than December
> 1st, and newly-elected officials shall assume their offices on January
> 1st, except Plebeian Aediles and Tribunes of the Plebs who shall assume
> their offices on December 10th."
>
> UTI ROGAS: 17
> ANTIQUO: 0
> ABSTINEO: 3
>
> The result of the voting is Item I PASSED
>
> KFBM: On both items I vote UTI ROGAS.
>
> KFBQ: Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. UTI
> ROGAS
>
> MHM: Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. UTI
> ROGAS
> CnEM: I Uti Rogas
> MLA: Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. UTI
> ROGAS. Although I am a patrician myself I am happy to lend my vote to this fine
> lex which moves us closer to historical practice and I think may provide a help
> in smoothing our annual transition of magistrates.
> MMPH: Item I. For the proposed Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis.
> ADSENTIOR UTI ROGAS
> CPL: I Uti Rogas
> TiGP: Uti Rogas on all three agenda items.
> *Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
> ATS: Item I: Uti rogas. This is long overdue, and should bring us closer to
> ancient Roman practice.
> MIS: Item I. For the proposed Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis.
> ADSENTIOR VTI ROGAS
> CCS: Item I: Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis Uti
> rogas.
>
> TIS: Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. Uti
> rogas.
>
> *Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
> ArnMA: Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. UTI
> ROGAS
>
> MCC: Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. UTI
> ROGAS
>
> QSP: > I Uti Rogas>
>
> MIP: Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. VTI
> ROGAS
>
> EmCF: Item I: Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis Uti
> rogas.
>
> FrAC: Item I1. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. VTI
> ROGAS
>
> CEC: Item I - VTI ROGAS
>
> *Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
> MAM: Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. Uti
> Rogas.
>
> _________________________________________
>
>
> Item II. The IT-project
>
> The Senate appoints Kristoffer From (formerly known within Nova Roma
> as Senator Titus Octavius Pius Ahenobarbus) as the programmer who will
> develop and set up a new IT-system, consisting of an automated
> election-system and a new citizen database with tools for our
> magistrates and citizens.
>
> The Senate affirms that the cost for the IT-project executed by
> KristofferFrom will be paid for with 10 000 USD.
>
> The Senate requests the project to be completed in time for the fall
> elections in November 2010, but understands that if the new system is
> not ready in time, Kristoffer From will arrange the elections and run-
> off elections in the current system. Kristoffer From will, in addition
> to the fall elections and run-off elections, set up no more than one
> session in each Comitia each month during his work on the project.
>
> The Senate orders the CIO to choose the most advantageous pay model
> for Nova Roma, either the mentioned Swedish NPO or another solution.
> Guarantees by the CIO will be given to assure that any chosen solution
> is irreproachable. A registered accountant who will check on the
> correctness may need separate pay though.
>
> Kristoffer From will leave reports on the progress of the project to
> the CIO who will share these reports with the Senate. There will be
> five such short reports, these reports will be sent to the CIO at the
> following occasions and when the following milestones are completed
> (but probably not working together yet):
>
> 1. Database (the backbone of the new site)
> 2. Access control (a basic website with an authentication method)
> 3. Server-side daemon (to enable automation of time-sensitive tasks)
> 4. Election system (automated running of elections)
> 5. Administrative tools (so magistrates can access the system)
> 6. Documentation (so Kristoffer is not the only one who knows how it
> works)
>
> These milestones may be reported in any order and they only have a
> partial connection to the payment of Kristoffer From. The reports will
> serve the purpose of keeping the Senate informed of progress of the
> IT-project. Still, the work is too complicated to connect the
> milestones too strictly to payments.
>
> Kristoffer From may report on the milestones in any order, as they are
> reached. The last payment will however not be made until the CIO has
> stated that the work is finished.
>
> The Senate orders the CFO or someone appointed/approved by the Senate
> instead of a CFO to immediately set aside the full 10 000 USD and upon
> the start of the project pay 2 500 USD for salary, social costs and
> taxes for Kristoffer From. The next payment of 2500 will be paid as
> soon as Kristoffer From reports on one milestone and a third payment
> of 2 500 USD will be paid as soon as Kristoffer From reports on a
> second milestone. When the project is completed to the satisfaction of
> the CIO, the remaining 2 500 USD will be paid according to the chosen
> pay-model.
>
> Kristoffer From will do after-work checks and surveillance checks for
> at least three months to see to it that the new IT-system really
> works in actual use. Nova Roma may also be asked to assist in
> performing tests of the system during this period.
>
>
> Uti rogas: 16
> Antiquo: 0
> Abstineo: 4
> The result of the voting is Item II PASSED
>
>
> KFBM: On both items I vote UTI ROGAS.
>
> KFBQ: Item II. The IT-project UTI ROGAS
>
> MHM: Item II. The IT-project UTI ROGAS
> CnEM: I Uti Rogas
> MLA: Item II. The IT-project UTI ROGAS. I have had a closer view than most as
> this project has gone ahead. Saturninus has done a top-rate job and I am happy
> to lend my vote in support of this long-overdue measure.
>
> MMPH: Item II. For the IT-project ADSENTIOR UTI ROGAS CPL: I Uti Rogas
> CPL: I Uti Rogas
> TiGP: Uti Rogas on all three agenda items.
> *Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
> ATS: Item II: Uti rogas. It seems that we have reached the point where it is
> better to start anew than attempt to repair the existing programs or whatever
> despite the expense. Appliances and automobiles have similar problems; we
> should not expect our IT infrastructure to last forever, no matter how well
> maintained.
> MIS: Item II. For the IT-project MIS: ADSENTIOR VTI ROGAS
> CCS: Item II: The IT-project Uti rogas. This is the most important improvement
> into our infrastructure ever since first Album Civium and Cista.
>
> TIS: Item II. The IT-project TIS: Uti rogas.
>
> *Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
> ArnMA: Item II. The IT-project UTI ROGAS
>
> MCC: Item II. IT-project UTI ROGAS
>
> QSP: > I Uti Rogas>
>
> MIP: Item Item II. The IT-project VTI ROGAS
>
> EmCF: Item II: The IT-project Uti rogas. This is an very drastic improvement
> that can be no longer delayed. The existing system is completely out of date,
> poorly documented and there is only one individual who is actually able to use
> it somehow. Wihout a new IT-system there will be no further elections.
>
> FrAC: Item Item II. The IT-project ABSTINEO As professionist of this commercial
> area, I would like to read the concrete project before to give my approval. The
> budget in fact is very high and it would be analyzed by a pool of experts.
>
> CEC: Item I - VTI ROGAS
>
> *Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
> MAM: Item II. The IT-project Uti Rogas.
>
> _____________________________________________
>
> Item III. Dictatorship
>
> The Senate of Nova Roma, having convened in an emergency session,
> considers that:
>
> Whereas the current situation in Nova Roma threatens the very
> existence of Nova Roma both as a nation and as a membership
> organization, and,
>
> Whereas these crises in our organization and corporation, our
> finances, and our technical problems result from many causes that must
> be addressed so as to avoid Nova Roma from harm, as well as to ensure
> the orderly and enjoyable continuation of Nova Roma, and,
>
> Whereas any solutions to these present crises should and must be done
> in accordance with the governing bodies of law,
>
> Do we, the Senate of Nova Roma, by the vote of a majority, hereby
> appoint Gnaeus Equitius Marinus to the office of Dictator, and invest
> in him complete auctoritas and imperium for a period of no more than
> six months, trusting in him to resolve the present crises and take
> whatever steps he deems necessary to prevent future harm to the Res
> Publica Populi Novae Romae.
>
> The Senate conveys resolution of the following tasks, although not
> limited to these alone, to Cn. Equitius Marinus:
>
> To oversee the rewriting of corporate bylaws for Nova Roma, Inc
>
> To have the Constitution and subordinate laws reviewed for the purpose
> of amending or replacing them as are necessary to protect the
> respublica from harm
>
> To resolve the IT issues that threaten our website and on which the
> functions of the respublica rely
>
> To restructure voting procedures to make them robust against loss of
> technical programs or equipment.
>
> To simplify the magisterial structure to provide fewer magistrates
> with better defined roles.
>
>
> In the name of the Senate and the People of the Nova Roma, and in the
> sight of the Gods and Goddesses of the People of Nova Roma, under the
> provision of the Constitution IV.B.1, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus,
> Censorius is hereby appointed Dictator and Magister Populi of Nova Roma.
>
> Uti rogas: 16
> Antiquo: 1
> Abstineo: 3
> The result of the voting is Item III PASSED
>
>
> KFBM: Rather, on all three items I vote UTI ROGAS.
>
> KFBQ: Item III. Dictatorship UTI ROGAS
>
> MHM: Item Item III. Dictatorship UTI ROGAS
> CnEM: III Uti Rogas, and may the Dii Immortales help me
> MLA: Item III. Dictatorship UTI ROGAS. Senator and Censorius Marinus is one of
> the very few whom I could support in this position. In deciding my vote I also
> consider the manifest desire of the people to put ourselves back on the right
> track.
> MMPH: Item III. ADSENTIOR UTI ROGAS
> CPL: I Uti Rogas
> TiGP: Now as to the proposed dictatorship. When the Roman appointed a dictator
> armies were at their gates.
> When the Romans appointed their first dictator there was an effort under way to
> return the kings to power.
> A week or so ago I stated on one of the lists that I would not support the
> appointment of a dictator even if I was proposed as the dictator. My opposition
> to a dictator has NOTHING to do with Senator Marinus or any other person who
> might have been nominated. It is based on my belief that while we have problems
> we do not have a crisis.
> I do not see anything that has changed and I vote NO on the proposed
> appointment of a dictator.
> *Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
> ATS: Item III. Ut pollicita sum, tertia discessio sequitur. Iterum meá
> quidem sententiá, interdum aliqua facienda, etsi injucunda. Malim Novam
> Romam rixis omnino carere; malim omnia sine pervicaciis et obicibus esse si quid
> alicui displiceat. Infelicissimé, haec ita non sunt, et mutanda.
> Dictaturae mihi displicent, sed ut videtur, nunc uná nobis opus est.
> Dolendum'st; sed quae cum ita sint, optio alia abest. Vir quem proposuisti
> bonus est, et eum honestum arbitror. Assentior, etsi animo sollicito nec
> laetitiam capiens, ut rogas.
> MIS: Item III. Dictatorship MIS: ADSENTIOR VTI ROGAS
> CCS: Item III: Dictatorship Uti rogas. It is time to save the republic. It is
> time to put politics aside and do real things. If accomplishing it means to vote
> for dictatorship, I'll do it. As a Roman citizen, magistrate and senator,
> Marinus has my support.
>
> TIS: Item III. Uti rogas.
>
> *Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
> ArnMA: Item III.Dictatorship. UTI ROGAS
>
> MCC: Item III. Dictatorship. UTI ROGAS
>
> QSP: > III Antiquo
>
> MIP: Item III. Dictatorship VTI ROGAS
>
> EmCF: Item III: Dictatorship Uti rogas.
>
> FrAC: Item III. Dictatorship VTI ROGAS I don't like the dictatorship, my own
> personal political opinion would drive me to more democratical and popular kinds
> of governments. But the situation of NR is bad, I'm looking the organization
> from a more far point of view and I find again a disorganized group divided by
> superficial discussions and political games. I hope the good Marinus would
> concentrate his efforts to find a new identity to NR, a real mission in a real
> world for the members, concrete and "unvirtual" opportunities and projects. The
> way taken by NR during the last year is the worst road, we need a change of
> direction. Marinus, please, do it!
>
> CEC: ITEM III - Although I do not go to the extreme that Gn. Iulius Caesar does,
> I
> cannot help but agree that each "crisis" we are called upon to deal now with was
> brought up in one form or another and those who did so were mocked or ignored
> because of political convenience. I think this because I was, of course, one of
> them; exempli gratia, I have advocated for the by-laws change for *years* now,
> offering my proposals repeatedly and simply being ignored. Our compliance with
> Maine law was brought up repeatedly (again, by myself among others) - only to be
> scoffed at and ignored because those in power disliked the messengers rather
> than paying attention to the message. So my personal feelings urge me to refuse
> to allow those in power to stand back and make someone else responsible for
> cleaning up the messes they have made.
>
> Yet, the Romans themselves did not look with horror at the idea of a dictator,
> probably because they had no experience with our common modern understanding of
> dictatorial government, with Hitler, Stalin, Tito, Ceaucescu, Peron, Pol Pot,
> Castro, etc., standing in our collective modern consciousness as the epitome of
> governments marked by arbitrary cruelty and inhumanity. The Romans appointed
> dictators not only to carry out wars but often to simply get a particular job
> done: to fill vacancies in the Senate, to preside over public games, to create
> holidays...even just to drive a nail into the door of the temple of Iuppiter
> O.M. in times of plague. They did their job, and unless they were a Sulla or a
> Marius or a Caesar, when it was finished they simply stepped back down into
> regular public life.
>
> So while I do believe that this series of "crises" has been manufactured by
> willful ignorance or blatant disregard on the part of some of those who have
> held the reins of power over the past two years, I cannot justify standing in
> the way of what is apparently the only solution that will hopefully make - force
> - those who hold power to shut up and actually listen for a change. The end
> does *not* justify the means, but simple dislike for the means does not make
> them evil, nor does it justify accepting a crippling status quo, either.
>
> VTI ROGAS
>
> *Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
> MAM: Item III. Dictatorship Uti Rogas.
>
> _____________________________________________
> The following senators announced their desire to withdraw their votes
> after voting:
>
> C. Equitius Cato
> Ti. Galerius Paulinus
> T. Iulius Sabinus
>
> Normal rules of Parliamentary Procedure do not allow for members of a
> voting quorum to withdraw once the quorum has been made. The legality
> of these withdrawls is in question.
>
>
> Tribuni:
>
> M. Octavius Corvus (reporting)
> Maxima Valeria Messallina
> C. Curius Saturnius
> C. Aquilius Rota
>
> I thank my colleague Maxima Valeria Messallina and Senator Marcus Lucretius
> Agricola for advise and help while preparing this, such a difficult report.
>
> Valete bene in pace Deorum,
>
> M. Octavius Corvus
> Tribunus Plebis
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79042 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: Responsum ad Piscinum
C. Petronius Q. Metello s.p.d.,

> I thank you, in the first place, for making the people aware of the
> action the pontifex maximus pro tempore is attempting to take,

Can you explain me what means for you "pontifex maximus pro tempore"? In Latin, usually the expression "pro tempore" means "according to the circunstances", "under the time he has" as in this Sallustian example:
"ac pauca pro tempore milites hortatus", "he exhorted soldiers in few words according to the time he had"... I do not understand what you want to say.

Vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
a. d. IV Nonas Sextiles P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79043 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: PETITIO ACTIONIS
Salve Sulla,
when living together with other people, you have several ways to coerce them
to do things. For example you could lock the bathroom door and coerce them
to use the other bathroom, or wait until you unlock it, or whatever. Or you
could play loud music and coerce them to listen to it or use earplugs.
Do I really have to spell out for you something which is so obvious?

Vale,
Livia


> Yo Livia,
>
> How do you know I am able to do that? And how are Tink and Metellus able
> to
> do that? Physically. Come on Livia you opened your trap..explain it or I
> will file charges against you myself! for CALVMINAE
>
> Vale,
>
> Sulla
>
> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 8:34 AM, L. Livia Plauta
> <livia.plauta@...>wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Salve Cato,
>> it is ridiculous to think that Piscinus is able to *coerce* anyone in
>> Nova
>> Roma to do anything.
>> Just how do you think he'd coerce anybody? By writing a lot of emails?
>> As far as I know only Sulla and the people who live with him would be
>> able
>> to physically coerce each other to do something, since they are within
>> reach
>> of each other.
>>
>> For anyone else, it's ridiculous to postulate it.
>> Or do you think Piscinus has a collection of voodoo dolls, and at night
>> he
>> performs rituals to magically coerce people to do his will? Come on!
>>
>> L. Livia Plauta
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Cato" <catoinnyc@....>
>> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>>
>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 2:03 AM
>> Subject: [Nova-Roma] PETITIO ACTIONIS
>>
>> C. Equitius Cato P. Memmio Albucio consule et in loco praetoris sal.
>>
>> I, Gaius Equitius Cato, citizen, former praetor and current senator of
>> the
>> Republic of Nova Roma and member of the Board of Directors of Nova Roma,
>> Inc., wish to lodge formal charges against M. Moravius Piscinus, to wit:
>>
>> 1. FALSUM: that he has coerced members of the comitia curiata to act in a
>> way inimical to their best interests (lex Salicia poenalis, pars altera
>> 16).
>> He has called the comitia curiata to witness the appointment of a
>> dictator
>> despite the fact that no such appointment has been made; despite the fact
>> that the supposed nominee for the dictatorship has refused to accept the
>> nomination until a legally-convened Senate has voted to act upon his
>> nomination; despite the fact that at least two lictors have stated
>> publicly,
>> clearly and unequivocally their legal reasons for not wishing to break
>> the
>> law of Nova Roma; he has attempted to force members of the comitia
>> curiata
>> to break the law and make themselves liable to charges under Nova Roman
>> law;
>> he has dismissed at least one lictor for refusing to break the law per
>> his
>> direct instructions.
>>
>> 2. LAESA PATRIAE: he has overtly acted to damage the institutions of the
>> Respublica, including the consulate, the Senate and the comitia curiata;
>> he
>>
>> has acted in such a way as to endanger the ability of the republic or its
>> institutions to perform its legal functions including the consulate, the
>> Senate and the comitia curiata; he has violated the Constitution of Nova
>> Roma and therefore the laws of the Respublica and the laws of the United
>> States under which Nova Roma, Inc. are incorporated, opening up the
>> possibility of macronational legal activity against the Respublica
>> (loc.cit.
>> 21).
>>
>> 3. CONTUMELIA PIETATE: he is attempting to incite hatred, despite or
>> enmity
>>
>> towards a person or group on the basis of the religious beliefs or
>> practices
>> of that person or group by claiming that non-practitioners are the enemy
>> of
>>
>> the Respublica and the source of its internal challenges (loc.cit. 18).
>>
>> Vale,
>>
>> Gaius Equitius Cato
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79044 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: PETITIO ACTIONIS
Ave!

Yes you need to spell out to me I guess who you end up treating your
guests. Because in my world that would get someone arrested for unlawful
imprisonment and torture. But I guess in your part of the world that is
just a possible mating ritual for you?

Vale,

Sulla

On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 1:26 PM, L. Livia Plauta <livia.plauta@...>wrote:

> Salve Sulla,
> when living together with other people, you have several ways to coerce
> them
> to do things. For example you could lock the bathroom door and coerce them
> to use the other bathroom, or wait until you unlock it, or whatever. Or you
> could play loud music and coerce them to listen to it or use earplugs.
> Do I really have to spell out for you something which is so obvious?
>
> Vale,
> Livia
>
>
> > Yo Livia,
> >
> > How do you know I am able to do that? And how are Tink and Metellus able
> > to
> > do that? Physically. Come on Livia you opened your trap..explain it or
> I
> > will file charges against you myself! for CALVMINAE
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Sulla
> >
> > On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 8:34 AM, L. Livia Plauta
> > <livia.plauta@...>wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Salve Cato,
> >> it is ridiculous to think that Piscinus is able to *coerce* anyone in
> >> Nova
> >> Roma to do anything.
> >> Just how do you think he'd coerce anybody? By writing a lot of emails?
> >> As far as I know only Sulla and the people who live with him would be
> >> able
> >> to physically coerce each other to do something, since they are within
> >> reach
> >> of each other.
> >>
> >> For anyone else, it's ridiculous to postulate it.
> >> Or do you think Piscinus has a collection of voodoo dolls, and at night
> >> he
> >> performs rituals to magically coerce people to do his will? Come on!
> >>
> >> L. Livia Plauta
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Cato" <catoinnyc@....>
> >> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>>
> >> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 2:03 AM
> >> Subject: [Nova-Roma] PETITIO ACTIONIS
> >>
> >> C. Equitius Cato P. Memmio Albucio consule et in loco praetoris sal.
> >>
> >> I, Gaius Equitius Cato, citizen, former praetor and current senator of
> >> the
> >> Republic of Nova Roma and member of the Board of Directors of Nova Roma,
> >> Inc., wish to lodge formal charges against M. Moravius Piscinus, to wit:
> >>
> >> 1. FALSUM: that he has coerced members of the comitia curiata to act in
> a
> >> way inimical to their best interests (lex Salicia poenalis, pars altera
> >> 16).
> >> He has called the comitia curiata to witness the appointment of a
> >> dictator
> >> despite the fact that no such appointment has been made; despite the
> fact
> >> that the supposed nominee for the dictatorship has refused to accept the
> >> nomination until a legally-convened Senate has voted to act upon his
> >> nomination; despite the fact that at least two lictors have stated
> >> publicly,
> >> clearly and unequivocally their legal reasons for not wishing to break
> >> the
> >> law of Nova Roma; he has attempted to force members of the comitia
> >> curiata
> >> to break the law and make themselves liable to charges under Nova Roman
> >> law;
> >> he has dismissed at least one lictor for refusing to break the law per
> >> his
> >> direct instructions.
> >>
> >> 2. LAESA PATRIAE: he has overtly acted to damage the institutions of the
> >> Respublica, including the consulate, the Senate and the comitia curiata;
> >> he
> >>
> >> has acted in such a way as to endanger the ability of the republic or
> its
> >> institutions to perform its legal functions including the consulate, the
> >> Senate and the comitia curiata; he has violated the Constitution of Nova
> >> Roma and therefore the laws of the Respublica and the laws of the United
> >> States under which Nova Roma, Inc. are incorporated, opening up the
> >> possibility of macronational legal activity against the Respublica
> >> (loc.cit.
> >> 21).
> >>
> >> 3. CONTUMELIA PIETATE: he is attempting to incite hatred, despite or
> >> enmity
> >>
> >> towards a person or group on the basis of the religious beliefs or
> >> practices
> >> of that person or group by claiming that non-practitioners are the enemy
> >> of
> >>
> >> the Respublica and the source of its internal challenges (loc.cit. 18).
> >>
> >> Vale,
> >>
> >> Gaius Equitius Cato
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79045 From: Cato Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: PETITIO ACTIONIS
Cato Liviae sal.

That's for a court to decide, not you.

Vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Livia Plauta" <livia.plauta@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Cato,
> it is ridiculous to think that Piscinus is able to *coerce* anyone in Nova
> Roma to do anything.
> Just how do you think he'd coerce anybody? By writing a lot of emails?
> As far as I know only Sulla and the people who live with him would be able
> to physically coerce each other to do something, since they are within reach
> of each other.
>
> For anyone else, it's ridiculous to postulate it.
> Or do you think Piscinus has a collection of voodoo dolls, and at night he
> performs rituals to magically coerce people to do his will? Come on!
>
> L. Livia Plauta
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cato" <catoinnyc@>
> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 2:03 AM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] PETITIO ACTIONIS
>
>
> C. Equitius Cato P. Memmio Albucio consule et in loco praetoris sal.
>
> I, Gaius Equitius Cato, citizen, former praetor and current senator of the
> Republic of Nova Roma and member of the Board of Directors of Nova Roma,
> Inc., wish to lodge formal charges against M. Moravius Piscinus, to wit:
>
> 1. FALSUM: that he has coerced members of the comitia curiata to act in a
> way inimical to their best interests (lex Salicia poenalis, pars altera 16).
> He has called the comitia curiata to witness the appointment of a dictator
> despite the fact that no such appointment has been made; despite the fact
> that the supposed nominee for the dictatorship has refused to accept the
> nomination until a legally-convened Senate has voted to act upon his
> nomination; despite the fact that at least two lictors have stated publicly,
> clearly and unequivocally their legal reasons for not wishing to break the
> law of Nova Roma; he has attempted to force members of the comitia curiata
> to break the law and make themselves liable to charges under Nova Roman law;
> he has dismissed at least one lictor for refusing to break the law per his
> direct instructions.
>
> 2. LAESA PATRIAE: he has overtly acted to damage the institutions of the
> Respublica, including the consulate, the Senate and the comitia curiata; he
> has acted in such a way as to endanger the ability of the republic or its
> institutions to perform its legal functions including the consulate, the
> Senate and the comitia curiata; he has violated the Constitution of Nova
> Roma and therefore the laws of the Respublica and the laws of the United
> States under which Nova Roma, Inc. are incorporated, opening up the
> possibility of macronational legal activity against the Respublica (loc.cit.
> 21).
>
> 3. CONTUMELIA PIETATE: he is attempting to incite hatred, despite or enmity
> towards a person or group on the basis of the religious beliefs or practices
> of that person or group by claiming that non-practitioners are the enemy of
> the Respublica and the source of its internal challenges (loc.cit. 18).
>
> Vale,
>
> Gaius Equitius Cato
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79046 From: Cato Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: Tribunician report for July session of the Senate
Cato omnibus in foro SPD

This report is in error.

The actions in the Senate were not a legal session - for which reason I withdrew as well.

The co-secretary of the corporation has legal, written documentation of *all* the withdrawals.

Valete,

Cato



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius" <gaiuspopillius@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> This report is in error. I withdrew my votes on all three items because of the uncertainty of the legality of the session.
>
> Valete,
>
> C. Popillius Laenas
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "mcorvvs" <mcorvvs@> wrote:
> >
> > Tribunus Plebis Marcus Octavius Corvus Quiritibus S.P.D.
> >
> > Citizens of Nova Roma,
> >
> > Here is the Tribunician report of the Senate session of July 19 – July 25,
> > 2763
> >
> > The votes have been tallied and the results are as follows:
> >
> > Formal debate ended at Friday 00.01 hrs CET Roma, 23 July 2010 2763.
> > Voting began at Friday 23 July 2010 at 00.02 hrs CET Roma 2763
> > and was concluded at Sunday 25 July 2010 at 00.02 CET Roma 2763.
> >
> > The following XX Senators cast their votes on time. They are referred to by
> > their initials which are listed in alphabetical order (with the exception of the
> > presiding magistrate who will be listed first):
> >
> > *KFBQ: K. Fabius Buteo Quintilianus, Presiding Magistrate
> > C0-presiding magistrates:
> > Max. Valeria Messallina, Tribuna Plebis
> > C. Curius Saturninus, Tribunus Plebis
> > C. Aquillius Rota, Tribunus Plebis
> > M. Octavius Corvus, Tribunus Plebis
> >
> >
> > *ATS: A. Tullia Scholastica
> > *CCS: C. Curius Saturninus
> > *CEC: C. Equitius Cato
> > *CnEM: Cn. Equitius Marinus
> > *CPL: C. Popillius Laenas
> > *EmCF: Em. Curia Finnica
> > *FrAC: Fr. Apulus Caesar
> > *KFBM: K. Fabius Buteo Modianus
> > *MAM: M. Arminius Maior
> > *MCC: M. Curiatius Complutensis
> > *MHM: M. Hortensia Maior
> > *MIP: M. Iulius Perusianus
> > *MIS: M. Iulius Severus
> > *MLA: M. Lucretius Agricola
> > *MMPH: M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus
> > *QSP: Q. Suetonius Paulinus
> > *TiGP.: Ti. Galerius Paulinus
> > *TIS: T. Iulius Sabinus
> >
> > The following Senator (I) voted by proxy:
> > *ArnMA: Arn. Moravia Aurelia (Proxy vote delivered by K. Fabius Buteo
> > Quintilianus)
> >
> >
> > The following Senatores (X) did not vote:
> >
> > *CFD: C. Flavius Diocletianus
> > *CMM: C. Marius Merullus
> > *CnIC: Cn. Iulius Caesar
> > *CVP: C. Vipsanius Agrippa
> > *DIPI: Dec. Iunius Palladius Invictus
> > *FlGA: Fl. Galerius Aurelianus
> > *LCSF: L. Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > *MMA M. Minucius Audens
> > *PMA: P. Memmius Albucius
> > *QFM: Q. Fabius Maximus
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________
> >
> > "VTI ROGAS" indicates a vote in favor of an item,
> > "ANTIQVO" is a vote against,
> > "ABSTINEO" is an open abstention.
> > __________________________________________
> >
> > All decisions were made with a majority of Uti Rogas votes.
> >
> > Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis.
> >
> > Correction of the Constitution IV, a:
> > "Elections of the ordinarii shall take place no later than December
> > 15th, and newly-elected officials shall assume their offices on
> > January 1st."
> >
> > Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis.
> >
> > "Elections of the ordinarii shall take place no later than December
> > 1st, and newly-elected officials shall assume their offices on January
> > 1st, except Plebeian Aediles and Tribunes of the Plebs who shall assume
> > their offices on December 10th."
> >
> > UTI ROGAS: 17
> > ANTIQUO: 0
> > ABSTINEO: 3
> >
> > The result of the voting is Item I PASSED
> >
> > KFBM: On both items I vote UTI ROGAS.
> >
> > KFBQ: Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. UTI
> > ROGAS
> >
> > MHM: Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. UTI
> > ROGAS
> > CnEM: I Uti Rogas
> > MLA: Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. UTI
> > ROGAS. Although I am a patrician myself I am happy to lend my vote to this fine
> > lex which moves us closer to historical practice and I think may provide a help
> > in smoothing our annual transition of magistrates.
> > MMPH: Item I. For the proposed Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis.
> > ADSENTIOR UTI ROGAS
> > CPL: I Uti Rogas
> > TiGP: Uti Rogas on all three agenda items.
> > *Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
> > ATS: Item I: Uti rogas. This is long overdue, and should bring us closer to
> > ancient Roman practice.
> > MIS: Item I. For the proposed Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis.
> > ADSENTIOR VTI ROGAS
> > CCS: Item I: Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis Uti
> > rogas.
> >
> > TIS: Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. Uti
> > rogas.
> >
> > *Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
> > ArnMA: Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. UTI
> > ROGAS
> >
> > MCC: Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. UTI
> > ROGAS
> >
> > QSP: > I Uti Rogas>
> >
> > MIP: Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. VTI
> > ROGAS
> >
> > EmCF: Item I: Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis Uti
> > rogas.
> >
> > FrAC: Item I1. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. VTI
> > ROGAS
> >
> > CEC: Item I - VTI ROGAS
> >
> > *Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
> > MAM: Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. Uti
> > Rogas.
> >
> > _________________________________________
> >
> >
> > Item II. The IT-project
> >
> > The Senate appoints Kristoffer From (formerly known within Nova Roma
> > as Senator Titus Octavius Pius Ahenobarbus) as the programmer who will
> > develop and set up a new IT-system, consisting of an automated
> > election-system and a new citizen database with tools for our
> > magistrates and citizens.
> >
> > The Senate affirms that the cost for the IT-project executed by
> > KristofferFrom will be paid for with 10 000 USD.
> >
> > The Senate requests the project to be completed in time for the fall
> > elections in November 2010, but understands that if the new system is
> > not ready in time, Kristoffer From will arrange the elections and run-
> > off elections in the current system. Kristoffer From will, in addition
> > to the fall elections and run-off elections, set up no more than one
> > session in each Comitia each month during his work on the project.
> >
> > The Senate orders the CIO to choose the most advantageous pay model
> > for Nova Roma, either the mentioned Swedish NPO or another solution.
> > Guarantees by the CIO will be given to assure that any chosen solution
> > is irreproachable. A registered accountant who will check on the
> > correctness may need separate pay though.
> >
> > Kristoffer From will leave reports on the progress of the project to
> > the CIO who will share these reports with the Senate. There will be
> > five such short reports, these reports will be sent to the CIO at the
> > following occasions and when the following milestones are completed
> > (but probably not working together yet):
> >
> > 1. Database (the backbone of the new site)
> > 2. Access control (a basic website with an authentication method)
> > 3. Server-side daemon (to enable automation of time-sensitive tasks)
> > 4. Election system (automated running of elections)
> > 5. Administrative tools (so magistrates can access the system)
> > 6. Documentation (so Kristoffer is not the only one who knows how it
> > works)
> >
> > These milestones may be reported in any order and they only have a
> > partial connection to the payment of Kristoffer From. The reports will
> > serve the purpose of keeping the Senate informed of progress of the
> > IT-project. Still, the work is too complicated to connect the
> > milestones too strictly to payments.
> >
> > Kristoffer From may report on the milestones in any order, as they are
> > reached. The last payment will however not be made until the CIO has
> > stated that the work is finished.
> >
> > The Senate orders the CFO or someone appointed/approved by the Senate
> > instead of a CFO to immediately set aside the full 10 000 USD and upon
> > the start of the project pay 2 500 USD for salary, social costs and
> > taxes for Kristoffer From. The next payment of 2500 will be paid as
> > soon as Kristoffer From reports on one milestone and a third payment
> > of 2 500 USD will be paid as soon as Kristoffer From reports on a
> > second milestone. When the project is completed to the satisfaction of
> > the CIO, the remaining 2 500 USD will be paid according to the chosen
> > pay-model.
> >
> > Kristoffer From will do after-work checks and surveillance checks for
> > at least three months to see to it that the new IT-system really
> > works in actual use. Nova Roma may also be asked to assist in
> > performing tests of the system during this period.
> >
> >
> > Uti rogas: 16
> > Antiquo: 0
> > Abstineo: 4
> > The result of the voting is Item II PASSED
> >
> >
> > KFBM: On both items I vote UTI ROGAS.
> >
> > KFBQ: Item II. The IT-project UTI ROGAS
> >
> > MHM: Item II. The IT-project UTI ROGAS
> > CnEM: I Uti Rogas
> > MLA: Item II. The IT-project UTI ROGAS. I have had a closer view than most as
> > this project has gone ahead. Saturninus has done a top-rate job and I am happy
> > to lend my vote in support of this long-overdue measure.
> >
> > MMPH: Item II. For the IT-project ADSENTIOR UTI ROGAS CPL: I Uti Rogas
> > CPL: I Uti Rogas
> > TiGP: Uti Rogas on all three agenda items.
> > *Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
> > ATS: Item II: Uti rogas. It seems that we have reached the point where it is
> > better to start anew than attempt to repair the existing programs or whatever
> > despite the expense. Appliances and automobiles have similar problems; we
> > should not expect our IT infrastructure to last forever, no matter how well
> > maintained.
> > MIS: Item II. For the IT-project MIS: ADSENTIOR VTI ROGAS
> > CCS: Item II: The IT-project Uti rogas. This is the most important improvement
> > into our infrastructure ever since first Album Civium and Cista.
> >
> > TIS: Item II. The IT-project TIS: Uti rogas.
> >
> > *Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
> > ArnMA: Item II. The IT-project UTI ROGAS
> >
> > MCC: Item II. IT-project UTI ROGAS
> >
> > QSP: > I Uti Rogas>
> >
> > MIP: Item Item II. The IT-project VTI ROGAS
> >
> > EmCF: Item II: The IT-project Uti rogas. This is an very drastic improvement
> > that can be no longer delayed. The existing system is completely out of date,
> > poorly documented and there is only one individual who is actually able to use
> > it somehow. Wihout a new IT-system there will be no further elections.
> >
> > FrAC: Item Item II. The IT-project ABSTINEO As professionist of this commercial
> > area, I would like to read the concrete project before to give my approval. The
> > budget in fact is very high and it would be analyzed by a pool of experts.
> >
> > CEC: Item I - VTI ROGAS
> >
> > *Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
> > MAM: Item II. The IT-project Uti Rogas.
> >
> > _____________________________________________
> >
> > Item III. Dictatorship
> >
> > The Senate of Nova Roma, having convened in an emergency session,
> > considers that:
> >
> > Whereas the current situation in Nova Roma threatens the very
> > existence of Nova Roma both as a nation and as a membership
> > organization, and,
> >
> > Whereas these crises in our organization and corporation, our
> > finances, and our technical problems result from many causes that must
> > be addressed so as to avoid Nova Roma from harm, as well as to ensure
> > the orderly and enjoyable continuation of Nova Roma, and,
> >
> > Whereas any solutions to these present crises should and must be done
> > in accordance with the governing bodies of law,
> >
> > Do we, the Senate of Nova Roma, by the vote of a majority, hereby
> > appoint Gnaeus Equitius Marinus to the office of Dictator, and invest
> > in him complete auctoritas and imperium for a period of no more than
> > six months, trusting in him to resolve the present crises and take
> > whatever steps he deems necessary to prevent future harm to the Res
> > Publica Populi Novae Romae.
> >
> > The Senate conveys resolution of the following tasks, although not
> > limited to these alone, to Cn. Equitius Marinus:
> >
> > To oversee the rewriting of corporate bylaws for Nova Roma, Inc
> >
> > To have the Constitution and subordinate laws reviewed for the purpose
> > of amending or replacing them as are necessary to protect the
> > respublica from harm
> >
> > To resolve the IT issues that threaten our website and on which the
> > functions of the respublica rely
> >
> > To restructure voting procedures to make them robust against loss of
> > technical programs or equipment.
> >
> > To simplify the magisterial structure to provide fewer magistrates
> > with better defined roles.
> >
> >
> > In the name of the Senate and the People of the Nova Roma, and in the
> > sight of the Gods and Goddesses of the People of Nova Roma, under the
> > provision of the Constitution IV.B.1, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus,
> > Censorius is hereby appointed Dictator and Magister Populi of Nova Roma.
> >
> > Uti rogas: 16
> > Antiquo: 1
> > Abstineo: 3
> > The result of the voting is Item III PASSED
> >
> >
> > KFBM: Rather, on all three items I vote UTI ROGAS.
> >
> > KFBQ: Item III. Dictatorship UTI ROGAS
> >
> > MHM: Item Item III. Dictatorship UTI ROGAS
> > CnEM: III Uti Rogas, and may the Dii Immortales help me
> > MLA: Item III. Dictatorship UTI ROGAS. Senator and Censorius Marinus is one of
> > the very few whom I could support in this position. In deciding my vote I also
> > consider the manifest desire of the people to put ourselves back on the right
> > track.
> > MMPH: Item III. ADSENTIOR UTI ROGAS
> > CPL: I Uti Rogas
> > TiGP: Now as to the proposed dictatorship. When the Roman appointed a dictator
> > armies were at their gates.
> > When the Romans appointed their first dictator there was an effort under way to
> > return the kings to power.
> > A week or so ago I stated on one of the lists that I would not support the
> > appointment of a dictator even if I was proposed as the dictator. My opposition
> > to a dictator has NOTHING to do with Senator Marinus or any other person who
> > might have been nominated. It is based on my belief that while we have problems
> > we do not have a crisis.
> > I do not see anything that has changed and I vote NO on the proposed
> > appointment of a dictator.
> > *Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
> > ATS: Item III. Ut pollicita sum, tertia discessio sequitur. Iterum meá
> > quidem sententiá, interdum aliqua facienda, etsi injucunda. Malim Novam
> > Romam rixis omnino carere; malim omnia sine pervicaciis et obicibus esse si quid
> > alicui displiceat. Infelicissimé, haec ita non sunt, et mutanda.
> > Dictaturae mihi displicent, sed ut videtur, nunc uná nobis opus est.
> > Dolendum'st; sed quae cum ita sint, optio alia abest. Vir quem proposuisti
> > bonus est, et eum honestum arbitror. Assentior, etsi animo sollicito nec
> > laetitiam capiens, ut rogas.
> > MIS: Item III. Dictatorship MIS: ADSENTIOR VTI ROGAS
> > CCS: Item III: Dictatorship Uti rogas. It is time to save the republic. It is
> > time to put politics aside and do real things. If accomplishing it means to vote
> > for dictatorship, I'll do it. As a Roman citizen, magistrate and senator,
> > Marinus has my support.
> >
> > TIS: Item III. Uti rogas.
> >
> > *Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
> > ArnMA: Item III.Dictatorship. UTI ROGAS
> >
> > MCC: Item III. Dictatorship. UTI ROGAS
> >
> > QSP: > III Antiquo
> >
> > MIP: Item III. Dictatorship VTI ROGAS
> >
> > EmCF: Item III: Dictatorship Uti rogas.
> >
> > FrAC: Item III. Dictatorship VTI ROGAS I don't like the dictatorship, my own
> > personal political opinion would drive me to more democratical and popular kinds
> > of governments. But the situation of NR is bad, I'm looking the organization
> > from a more far point of view and I find again a disorganized group divided by
> > superficial discussions and political games. I hope the good Marinus would
> > concentrate his efforts to find a new identity to NR, a real mission in a real
> > world for the members, concrete and "unvirtual" opportunities and projects. The
> > way taken by NR during the last year is the worst road, we need a change of
> > direction. Marinus, please, do it!
> >
> > CEC: ITEM III - Although I do not go to the extreme that Gn. Iulius Caesar does,
> > I
> > cannot help but agree that each "crisis" we are called upon to deal now with was
> > brought up in one form or another and those who did so were mocked or ignored
> > because of political convenience. I think this because I was, of course, one of
> > them; exempli gratia, I have advocated for the by-laws change for *years* now,
> > offering my proposals repeatedly and simply being ignored. Our compliance with
> > Maine law was brought up repeatedly (again, by myself among others) - only to be
> > scoffed at and ignored because those in power disliked the messengers rather
> > than paying attention to the message. So my personal feelings urge me to refuse
> > to allow those in power to stand back and make someone else responsible for
> > cleaning up the messes they have made.
> >
> > Yet, the Romans themselves did not look with horror at the idea of a dictator,
> > probably because they had no experience with our common modern understanding of
> > dictatorial government, with Hitler, Stalin, Tito, Ceaucescu, Peron, Pol Pot,
> > Castro, etc., standing in our collective modern consciousness as the epitome of
> > governments marked by arbitrary cruelty and inhumanity. The Romans appointed
> > dictators not only to carry out wars but often to simply get a particular job
> > done: to fill vacancies in the Senate, to preside over public games, to create
> > holidays...even just to drive a nail into the door of the temple of Iuppiter
> > O.M. in times of plague. They did their job, and unless they were a Sulla or a
> > Marius or a Caesar, when it was finished they simply stepped back down into
> > regular public life.
> >
> > So while I do believe that this series of "crises" has been manufactured by
> > willful ignorance or blatant disregard on the part of some of those who have
> > held the reins of power over the past two years, I cannot justify standing in
> > the way of what is apparently the only solution that will hopefully make - force
> > - those who hold power to shut up and actually listen for a change. The end
> > does *not* justify the means, but simple dislike for the means does not make
> > them evil, nor does it justify accepting a crippling status quo, either.
> >
> > VTI ROGAS
> >
> > *Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
> > MAM: Item III. Dictatorship Uti Rogas.
> >
> > _____________________________________________
> > The following senators announced their desire to withdraw their votes
> > after voting:
> >
> > C. Equitius Cato
> > Ti. Galerius Paulinus
> > T. Iulius Sabinus
> >
> > Normal rules of Parliamentary Procedure do not allow for members of a
> > voting quorum to withdraw once the quorum has been made. The legality
> > of these withdrawls is in question.
> >
> >
> > Tribuni:
> >
> > M. Octavius Corvus (reporting)
> > Maxima Valeria Messallina
> > C. Curius Saturnius
> > C. Aquilius Rota
> >
> > I thank my colleague Maxima Valeria Messallina and Senator Marcus Lucretius
> > Agricola for advise and help while preparing this, such a difficult report.
> >
> > Valete bene in pace Deorum,
> >
> > M. Octavius Corvus
> > Tribunus Plebis
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79047 From: Publius Memmius Albucius Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Your "instructions" to the Lictores curiati
Pontifico maximo Moravio s.d.



I have been requested to intervene in this matter, whose I was not aware, until now, of the details. I must say that I am discovering them, as the letter below that you sent to Valerianus lictor, with surprise, deception and, I cannot hide it, a real irritation.



You seem having taken no account of my letter of last July 11th, that you will find again at the end of this letter.



In addition, beside behaving with a lictor curiatus as if he was one of your personal slaves - and I am sure that you would better treat your domestic staff - you brought to him, in order to make pressure on him, inexact information that a less patient observer than I am may may say that they are... just lies.

You perfectly know that Hon. Marinus has not been appointed dictator for I have legally vetoed the session where in this blitz-decision was submitted, and for its convening did not respected our Constitution. As a consequence, there exists no legal decision that a lictor or any officer or magistrate would be obliged, except if he intends to take part to a coup d'etat, applying and respecting. In addition, every lictor who would currently refuse to defer to this inconstitutional "decision" just honors his/her name, her/his office and the Republic.



I must here underline that, if the lictors are effectively appointed by the Collegium Pontificum, they cannot be thus dismissed by you from the Comitia curiata, if and when you decide, just because their individual or political positions are not conform to your own political line.



I ask you, for the second and last time, and independantly of your other positions, to change your behavior towards our lictors curiati and to come back to the observation of the Law.



Concerning C. Tullius Valerianus, and for the sole fact he just defended the legality of our institutions, be informed that I will consider with the utmost attention the measures that you are intending to take or propose the Collegium Pontificum. I wish that your decision be the wise one, for I do not wish being obliged intervening, what I constantly avoided doing since last January, in the affairs of our Collegia.



Vale,



 

P. Memmius Albucius cos.

 



______________Kal. Aug._____________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

M. Moravius Piscinus C. Tullio Valeriano dicit:

You have received your instructions as have all other Lictores curiati. The appointment of Cn. Marinus was legally approved by the majority of the Senate in a vote of 16 to 1, posted by the Tribunus Plebis, and acknowledged by both consuls as so reported. The Constitution does not give any individual Lictor or the Comitia Curiata as a whole to depart from the decision of the Senate.

My instructions were that if you disagreed with the decision of the Senate that you should remain silent. As you have done otherwise and have attempted to encourage other Lictores to disobey their constitutional duties, you are dismissed from the Comitia Curiata and your appointment as a Lictor shall be reviewed by the Collegium Pontificum at its next session.

 



______________________________a.d. Idus Quint. (July 11)____________________________________________________________________________



Moravio Pontifico maximo s.d.

I am writing to you about your last address (below) to the lictors of our Comitia curiata. Even if the matter itself is now behind us, I feel obliged, once again, as consul, to remind our Law. For your words below exceed the normal legal relation which should exist between the comitia and yourself.

The Comitia curiata is not, as you affirm, a 'religious institution'. It is a public assembly of our Republic, which is recognized as such by our Constitution. The fact that the lictors curiati be appointed by the Collegium Pontificum, and that the Comitia be called to order by the PM does not transform it in some group "under the authority of the Collegium Pontificum" and would be required to apply its rulings, as simple scribes would.

As well, the members of the Comitia hold their first duties, as every member of our Republic constitutional bodies, towards the comitia as a whole and our Republic, and are not, as you write it, "obliged to abide with decreta issued by the Quattor Summa Collegia", a fortiori when those decreta are unconstitional.

Again, you cannot "instruct" the members of any comitia: the lictors curiati are not the soldiers of a Novaroman legion placed under the command of the pontifex maximus, how ever be his military skills.

Things work here as like in every (democratic) assembly: you are to convene, as pontifex maximus, the comitia, whose members vote as responsible adults and as they see fit. Naturally, you may campaign to try to influence their vote. No law forbids this.

On the fact that "the Collegium Augurum has declared the praetores suffecti in vitio creati. As such, (you) will not call the Comitia Curiata to assemble against the decretum augurum.", I cannot but take notice of your intention.

Your sentence "If you cannot abide with the decreta of our Collegia, then you ought to resign now. Also, violations of instructions or decreta are subject to a determination by the Collegium Pontificum." sounds more like a blackmail and an illegal pressure on the lictors, and based, in addition, on the violation of the constitution that I have stated in another circumstance. Such argument is not conform to the dignitas of your office, Pontifex Maxime, and I suggest that you come back to a behavior more conform with the laws of our Republic and our Roman values and virtues.

Vale respectfully Pontifex Maximus,


Albucius cos.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



M. Moravius Piscinus Pontifex Maximus lictoribus s. p. d.

Let me make some things clear right now. The Constitution states:

III. Comitia

A. The comitia curiata (Assembly of Curiae) shall be made up of thirty lictores curiati (lictors of the curia), appointed to their positions by the collegium pontificum (college of pontiffs). It shall be called to order by the Pontifex Maximus, and the collegium pontificum shall set the rules by which the comitia curiata shall operate internally.

The Comitia Curiata is a religious institution. It is solely under the authority of the Collegium Pontificum. It may only be called to assemble by the Pontifex Maximus. No lictor may act alone, and no witness statements have any validity without the Comitia Curiata first being called into session.

As a religious institution, members of the Curiata, beginning with the Pontifex Maximus, and then all lictores curiati appointed by the Collegium Pontificum, are obliged to abide with decreta issued by the Quattor Summa Collegia. On the other hand, under the Constitution IV.A.9 lictores curiati are specifically not magistrates and are not, therefore, under the authority of any magisterial edicta. A magisterial edictum cannot be issued to instruct the Comitia Curiata or the lictores curiati on their duties. Only the Collegium Pontificum has constitutional authority over the procedures of the Comitia Curiata.

The Collegium Augurum has declared the praetores suffecti in vitio creati. As such, I will not call the Comitia Curiata to assemble against the decretum augurum.

All lictores curiati are instructed *not* to issue witness statements until and unless the Pontifex Maximus first calls the Comitia Curiata into seesion and so instructs the lictores curiati to witness the proper election of magistrates.

If you cannot abide with the decreta of our Collegia, then you ought to resign now. Also, violations of instructions or decreta are subject to a determination by the Collegium Pontificum.


 





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79048 From: Cato Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: PETITIO ACTIONIS
Cato omnibus in foro SPD

I have decided to ask the consul to whom I addressed my petitio to hold off on acting on it as I may not have made clear that I intend to bring each charge separately.

There will be three separate charges laid against Moravius Piscinus, each with their own petitio actionis.

I will be publishing them as I finish writing them out, and the consul is to consider their appearance in the Forum as my official notification to him.

Valete,

Cato



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> C. Equitius Cato P. Memmio Albucio consule et in loco praetoris sal.
>
> I, Gaius Equitius Cato, citizen, former praetor and current senator of the Republic of Nova Roma and member of the Board of Directors of Nova Roma, Inc., wish to lodge formal charges against M. Moravius Piscinus, to wit:
>
> 1. FALSUM: that he has coerced members of the comitia curiata to act in a way inimical to their best interests (lex Salicia poenalis, pars altera 16). He has called the comitia curiata to witness the appointment of a dictator despite the fact that no such appointment has been made; despite the fact that the supposed nominee for the dictatorship has refused to accept the nomination until a legally-convened Senate has voted to act upon his nomination; despite the fact that at least two lictors have stated publicly, clearly and unequivocally their legal reasons for not wishing to break the law of Nova Roma; he has attempted to force members of the comitia curiata to break the law and make themselves liable to charges under Nova Roman law; he has dismissed at least one lictor for refusing to break the law per his direct instructions.
>
> 2. LAESA PATRIAE: he has overtly acted to damage the institutions of the Respublica, including the consulate, the Senate and the comitia curiata; he has acted in such a way as to endanger the ability of the republic or its institutions to perform its legal functions including the consulate, the Senate and the comitia curiata; he has violated the Constitution of Nova Roma and therefore the laws of the Respublica and the laws of the United States under which Nova Roma, Inc. are incorporated, opening up the possibility of macronational legal activity against the Respublica (loc.cit. 21).
>
> 3. CONTUMELIA PIETATE: he is attempting to incite hatred, despite or enmity towards a person or group on the basis of the religious beliefs or practices of that person or group by claiming that non-practitioners are the enemy of the Respublica and the source of its internal challenges (loc.cit. 18).
>
> Vale,
>
> Gaius Equitius Cato
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79049 From: publiusalbucius Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Sarmatia province limits, Poltava and fires
Omnes salvete !

As I read wrong informations on the limits of provincia Sarmatia, here is the official delineation adopted by the Senate for Sarmatia this year:

"Ukraine, Russian Federation, Rep. of Belarus, and the Transnistria (East Bank of river Dniestr)"

City of Poltava is in Ukraine, between Kharkov and Kiev, on the Eastern bank of river Dniepr.

Among the 3 worst hit-regions (Moscow, Nizny-Novgorod and Voronej), the last one, the closest of Poltava is around 500 kms far, on NE.

Valete,


Albucius cos.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79050 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Friendship and humor: A social dynamic in Cicero's letters
*Friendship and humor: A social dynamic in Cicero's letters*
by *Werner, Barbara Jean* <javascript:void(0);>, Ph.D., University of
Colorado at Boulder, 2009 , 232 pages; AAT 3366647
Abstract (Summary)

The social dynamic between friendship and humor has received little
attention from modern researchers and is not considered in the philosophical
and rhetorical literature surviving from antiquity. This study focuses on
the interrelationship between friendship and humor and takes into account
the intersection between these discrete fields: friendship in the ancient
world, humor in antiquity, and modern friendship and humor studies.

Detailed comparisons are presented to show that our modern theories of
friendship and humor are compatible with the ideas expressed by *Cicero* on
those subjects in his * Laelius De Amicitia * and * De Oratore. **
Cicero's*letters are interpreted according to ancient theories and
supplemented by
modern theoretical advances in order to develop case studies in which the
dynamic between friendship and humor is assessed.

The friendship between *Cicero* and Atticus is closely examined. Each
element of their relationship is analyzed based on the over four hundred
surviving letters written by *Cicero* to his dearest friend. Their
friendship is confirmed, but difficulties are also identified that have the
potential to erode the quality of their friendship unless resolved. The
letters reveal that positive, affiliative humor is the method of choice for
dealing with tensions and problems in their relationship. *Cicero's* use of
hostile and aggressive humor with Atticus in connection with his long-term
feud with Clodius is considered a model of coping humor wherein Atticus
provides emotional support to *Cicero* as he deals with stressful
circumstances.

*Cicero's* friendship with Papirius Paetus is tested according to the modern
theory of the so-called "joking" relationship in which teasing is a central
element of friendship and allows dissimilarities in values or statuses to be
adjusted and stabilized. It is argued that the reciprocal teasing between *
Cicero* and Paetus stems from a conflict in values and permits their
friendship to flourish.

This study illustrates the important social functions of humor in
maintaining friendship, provides new perspectives on *Cicero* as a friend,
and explicates his use of humor.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79051 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: On the reliability of sense perceptions in Epicurean epistemology
*On the reliability of sense perceptions in Epicurean epistemology*
by *Schneider, Zeev* <javascript:void(0);>, M.A., University of Ottawa
(Canada), 2009 , 117 pages; AAT MR61263
Abstract (Summary)

In this thesis I advance an interpretation of the statement, famously
attributed to Epicurus by several ancient sources, 'all perceptions (
*aistheseis
* or *phantosia * ) are true ( *alethes * ).' The statement earned Epicurus
and his followers the scorn and ridicule of prominent non-Epicurean figures,
including *Cicero* and Plutarch, and has remained the subject of scholarly
controversy. The interpretation I advance in this thesis is oriented around
the foundational role of perceptions in Epicurean epistemology. Though they
are themselves irrational ( *alogos) * , perceptions are both the basis of
all reasoning and criteria of truth in Epicurus' system. To show how all
perceptions are true in this role, I analyse the causal mechanism of
perception and show that the content of each perception is basic and
irreducible: no perception can contradict another and all are equally
reliable as evidence. Thus, on my reading, the truth of all perceptions
refers to their reliability in Epicurus' method.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79052 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: "Imitation Greeks": Being Syrian in the Greco-Roman world (175 BCE-2
*"Imitation Greeks": Being Syrian in the Greco-Roman world (175 BCE-275 CE)*
by *Andrade, Nathanael John* <javascript:void(0);>, Ph.D., University of
Michigan, 2009 , 472 pages; AAT 3354005
Abstract (Summary)

Because of their relevance to the modern world, the topics of ethnicity,
cultural performance, and civic affiliation are central issues of the
current scholarship on the ancient Near East. My dissertation therefore
analyzes the formation of Greek civic performances among Syrians within the
contexts of Greek colonialism and Roman imperialism. By examining how the
Near East's inhabitants reinvented concepts of Greek, Roman, and Syrian
identification by interweaving the traditions of these cultures, it
demonstrates how the development of Greek communities that had extended
citizenship to ethnic Syrians generated a "third space." Within this
symbolic framework, local subjects reoriented idioms of diverse cultural
origins in ways that produced innovative expressions of Greekness and
Romanness.

The first chapter explores how the Seleucid king Antiochus IV (175-164 BCE)
promoted commonality among ethnic Greeks and Syrians. He did so by prompting
Greek cities to mint coinage with Near Eastern idioms and by conferring the
rank of Greek city upon Near Eastern communities. The second exam*ines
Cice*ro's
relationships with prominent Near Easterners and how he portrayed them in
his extensive writings. While it expl*ores Cice*ro's perspectives, it also
shows how Near Easterners responded to the intervention of Roman imperial
figures su*ch as Ci*cero, who was the proconsul of Cilicia in 51-50 BCE. The
succeeding chapters demonstrate how civic identifications and affiliations
were articulated in particular parts of the Near East during various stages
of Roman imperial intervention. After the reign of Augustus, the Roman
imperial administration increasingly prompted Greek cities to grant
citizenship to Syrians or even transformed Near Eastern communities into
official Greek * poleis * . Individuals with Aramaic names and Near Eastern
genealogies appear in the inscriptions and papyri of numerous Greek
city-states and Roman "colonies" as citizens and civic councilors, and they
often signed public documents in Aramaic or worshipped divinities of Near
Eastern origin. Wall paintings and statues reveal that Greek citizens
alternatively wore Greek, Roman, and Syrian styles of clothing. Such
evidence indicates that Syrians used diverse cultural idioms to articulate
numerous overlapping identifications, and they thereby created new forms of
Greek and Roman civic culture distinct from those of classical cities.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79053 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: A study of Fulvia
*A study of Fulvia*
by *Weir, Allison Jean* <javascript:void(0);>, M.A., Queen's University
(Canada), 2008 , 168 pages; AAT MR37051
Abstract (Summary)

Who was Fulvia? Was she the politically aggressive and dominating wife of
Mark Antony as *Cicero* and Plutarch describe her? Or was she a loyal mother
and wife, as Asconius and Appian suggest? These contrasting accounts in the
ancient sources warrant further investigation.

This thesis seeks to explore the nature of Fulvia's role in history to the
extent that the evidence permits. Fulvia is most famous for her activities
during Antony's consulship (44 BC) and his brother Lucius Antonius' struggle
against C. Octavian in the Perusine War (41-40 BC). But there is a
discrepancy among the authors as to what extent she was actually involved. *
Cicero*, Octavian and Antony, who were all key players in events, provide
their own particular versions of what occurred. Later authors, such as
Appian and Dio, may have been influenced by these earlier, hostile accounts
of Fulvia.

This is the first study in English to make use of all the available
evidence, both literary and material, pertaining to Fulvia. Modern
scholarship has a tendency to concentrate almost exclusively on events
towards the end of Fulvia's life, in particular the Perusine War, about
which the evidence is much more abundant in later sources such as Appian and
Dio. However, to do this ignores the importance of her earlier activities
which, if studied more fully, can help to explain her later actions in the
40's BC. This thesis is divided into five chapters.

The first provides an introduction to the topic and a biography of Fulvia.
The second is a review of the modern scholarship on Fulvia. The third
focuses on the contemporary sources, both the literary evidence from *Cicero
*, Cornelius Nepos and Martial, as well as the surviving material evidence,
namely the sling bullets found at Perusia and a series of coins that may
depict Fulvia in the guise of Victoria. The fourth is a discussion of those
authors born after Fulvia's death in 40 BC, of whom the most important are
Plutarch, Appian, and Dio. The fifth provides a conclusion to the thesis,
and returns to the questions posed above in light of the analysis of the
sources provided throughout the thesis. It concludes that Fulvia played a
significant role in events, particularly from Antony's consulship onwards,
and that her actions were deliberate and politically motivated. Moreover,
while these actions were done on her husbands' behalf, she nevertheless
exhibited a remarkable degree of independence.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79054 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Ciceronian fallibilism in Kant's "Critique of Pure Reason": A rhetor
*Ciceronian fallibilism in Kant's "Critique of Pure Reason": A rhetorical
theory of justification of belief in the modern critique of metaphysics*
by *Gonzalez, Catalina* <javascript:void(0);>, Ph.D., Emory University, 2008
, 193 pages; AAT 3344468
Abstract (Summary)

The main thesis of this work is that Kant's critique of metaphysics in
the *Critique
of Pure Reason * shows traces of a fallibilistic theory of the justification
of belief that originated in the ancient Hellenistic confluence between
rhetoric and Academic skepticism. This confluence is best presented in
Marcus Tullius *Cicero's* (106-43 B.C.) epistemological treatise--the
*Academica.
*

By fallibilism in this context, I understand a theory of truth that
recognizes the difficulties of attaining knowledge, denies certainty, and
recommends instead holding probable or persuasive claims in order to conduct
life practically. Kant retrieves some of the teachings of
*Cicero's*Academic fallibilism in his undertaking a critique of
metaphysical claims.
In his "Dialectic of Pure Reason," especially in the section entitled "the
Antinomies of Pure Reason," Kant offers a critique of metaphysics that makes
use of skeptical strategies but goes beyond the results of skepticism.
Kant's position, in my opinion, provides a plausible solution to a
fundamental problem, both rhetorical and philosophical: when is it
legitimate to believe in something that we do not know? And what kind of
justification can these beliefs have?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79055 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Form, intent, and the fragmentary Roman historians 240 to 63 B.C.E.
*Form, intent, and the fragmentary Roman historians 240 to 63 B.C.E.*
by *Becker, Gertrude Harrington* <javascript:void(0);>, Ph.D., University of
Florida, 2008 , 199 pages; AAT 3334443
Abstract (Summary)

In *de Oratore * (2.51-52), Antonius described the origins of Roman
history--the earliest histories were compilations of * annales * recorded by
the chief priest, and the historians were annalists. Despite Antonius'
comments, however, not all historians in the Roman Republic were annalists.
On the contrary, from the end of the First Punic War (240 B.C.E.) to the
time of *Cicero's* consulship (63 B.C.E.), Roman historians used a variety
of forms to write their history. This study undertakes an examination of
those forms and their authors, both to assess intent and motivations, and to
consider cultural and political contexts. Unfortunately, none of these
histories has survived *in toto * , and for most only a handful of fragments
remains.

Nonetheless, these fragments preserve intentional statements regarding form
and demonstrate a wide range of forms such as *annales, res gestae,
*contemporary history, monographs, and
*commentarii * . Cato, for example, spoke dismissively of *annales * , with
their inclusion of quotidian events from the *tabula apud pontificem maximum
* , such as corn prices or eclipses. Asellio rejected the annalistic form;
his history, *res gestae * , would more properly demonstrate how and why
events happened. Sisenna, who wrote contemporary history, defended his
methodology of choosing to relate in continuous narrative events outside the
city of Rome. Though few other programmatic statements survive, implicit
estimations of forms are apparent in the choices historians made. Pictor and
Calpurnius Piso, for example, found the *annales * form appropriate for
their histories; in that form they could attribute Rome's success to yearly
progress overseen by annual magistrates. Antipater chose instead to focus on
one particular period, the Second Punic War, in a monograph form. Later
historians, such as Scaurus and Sulla, wrote *commentarii * , histories
which justified and legitimized their public action.

The words of Cato, Asellio, and Sisenna as well as the implicit evidence
from others reveal thoughtful reflection about suitable historiographical
forms for the functions they assigned to their history. The multitude of
historiographical forms counterbalances the impression that historiography
was uniform and poorly conceived. In the years 240-63, Roman
historiography--form, at least--was carefully chosen, rhetorically charged,
and engaged in with purpose.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79056 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Memory and leadership in the Late Roman Republic
*Memory and leadership in the Late Roman Republic*
by *Steed, Kathryn L. Seidl* <javascript:void(0);>, Ph.D., University of
Michigan, 2008 , 279 pages; AAT 3343220
Abstract (Summary)

This dissertation places the political inheritance of the last generation of
the Roman Republic in the context of Roman social memory, focusing
particularly on reactions to the upheavals of the 80s BCE as embodied by the
figures of Marius and Sulla. These men loomed large in the discourse of the
generation of *Cicero* and Caesar as the best and worst exemplars of Roman
leadership for the turbulent social and political climate of the Late
Republic. In order to understand and evaluate the posthumous rhetorical
lives of these two figures, I attempt to isolate Republican images of them
from the accretions of later tradition and to compare those images as
closely as possible to the recoverable details of their actual careers. The
result of this comparison sheds light not only on the figures of Marius and
Sulla themselves but on the mental and social processes and political needs
that characterized the last decades of Republican government in Rome.

Memories of both Marius and Sulla were drastically simplified as they were
embedded in the rhetorical framework of public discourse, and while Sulla
was remembered accurately if very selectively, Marius was transformed
dramatically in the public consciousness by virtue of his role as Sulla's
greatest enemy in life. Because Sulla as dictator presided over the worst
excesses of the 80s, he came to be seen primarily as a cruel autocrat whose
example was to be avoided in all situations and at all costs. Marius, on the
other hand, who was in his own life a relatively conventional politician,
was remembered as a populist and an almost universally praiseworthy hero,
the protector of the Roman people against all forms of oppression. Because
these images were deeply ingrained in the memory and imagination of the
Roman people as a whole, leading figures frequently situated themselves in
political life by reaction to them. Public appeals to the legacies of Marius
and Sulla represented not empty rhetoric or aristocratic infighting but
genuine attempts to win political battles and the allegiance of the Roman
people.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79057 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: (Re)Constructing Cato Maior: A literary assessment of the reception
*(Re)Constructing Cato Maior: A literary assessment of the reception of Cato
the Elder in the works of Cicero, Livy, and Aulus Gellius*
by *Ceaicovschi, Kari Rose* <javascript:void(0);>, Ph.D., University of
Washington, 2008 , 175 pages; AAT 3318165
Abstract (Summary)

In this study, I investigate the construction of Cato the Elder (234-149
B.C.E.) in both Republican and Imperial literature as an ideological act
whereby a Roman author as a member of a social or political group attempts
to establish, reinforce, or challenge the status quo. Upon examination the
construction reveals the author's ideas, beliefs, and values which were
developed within the boundaries of certain social regulations. While these
'literary Catones' are based on the tradition that Cato himself inspired
through his speeches and various writings, they are much more a product of
the time within which they were produced. As part of the Republican
ideological landscape, Cato the Elder was a valuable cultural icon which was
used in various and often contradictory ways. All of this results in a
tradition that when examined closely is filled with inconsistencies and
outright contradictions. I begin with Cato's own construction of himself in
his various writings and speeches as a control against which I read
subsequent literary constructions of him in the writings of Marcus Tullius *
Cicero* (106-43 B.C.E.), Titus Livius (59-17 C.E.), and Aulus Gellius (b.
125-128 C.E.). Through a cross-genre literary analysis, I use each
respective construction of Cato as an index to measure the changing
conceptions of Roman aristocratic identity during the expansion, crisis, and
stabilization of the Roman Empire.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79058 From: Gnaea Livia Ocella Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Re: A study of Fulvia
Salvete,

Soon after doing my own paper on Fulvia, I read the above thesis by Ms. Weir (who is currently a student at University of St Andrews, it seems) and it is excellent - very thorough and extremely well-written. I would recommend it to anyone who is as interested in Fulvia as I am.

Valete,
Livia Ocella

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robert Woolwine <robert.woolwine@...> wrote:
>
> *A study of Fulvia*
> by *Weir, Allison Jean* <javascript:void(0);>, M.A., Queen's University
> (Canada), 2008 , 168 pages; AAT MR37051
> Abstract (Summary)
>
> Who was Fulvia? Was she the politically aggressive and dominating wife of
> Mark Antony as *Cicero* and Plutarch describe her? Or was she a loyal mother
> and wife, as Asconius and Appian suggest? These contrasting accounts in the
> ancient sources warrant further investigation.
>
> This thesis seeks to explore the nature of Fulvia's role in history to the
> extent that the evidence permits. Fulvia is most famous for her activities
> during Antony's consulship (44 BC) and his brother Lucius Antonius' struggle
> against C. Octavian in the Perusine War (41-40 BC). But there is a
> discrepancy among the authors as to what extent she was actually involved. *
> Cicero*, Octavian and Antony, who were all key players in events, provide
> their own particular versions of what occurred. Later authors, such as
> Appian and Dio, may have been influenced by these earlier, hostile accounts
> of Fulvia.
>
> This is the first study in English to make use of all the available
> evidence, both literary and material, pertaining to Fulvia. Modern
> scholarship has a tendency to concentrate almost exclusively on events
> towards the end of Fulvia's life, in particular the Perusine War, about
> which the evidence is much more abundant in later sources such as Appian and
> Dio. However, to do this ignores the importance of her earlier activities
> which, if studied more fully, can help to explain her later actions in the
> 40's BC. This thesis is divided into five chapters.
>
> The first provides an introduction to the topic and a biography of Fulvia.
> The second is a review of the modern scholarship on Fulvia. The third
> focuses on the contemporary sources, both the literary evidence from *Cicero
> *, Cornelius Nepos and Martial, as well as the surviving material evidence,
> namely the sling bullets found at Perusia and a series of coins that may
> depict Fulvia in the guise of Victoria. The fourth is a discussion of those
> authors born after Fulvia's death in 40 BC, of whom the most important are
> Plutarch, Appian, and Dio. The fifth provides a conclusion to the thesis,
> and returns to the questions posed above in light of the analysis of the
> sources provided throughout the thesis. It concludes that Fulvia played a
> significant role in events, particularly from Antony's consulship onwards,
> and that her actions were deliberate and politically motivated. Moreover,
> while these actions were done on her husbands' behalf, she nevertheless
> exhibited a remarkable degree of independence.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79059 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Profile of a Roman citizen: A prosopographical study of Cn. Corneliu
*Profile of a Roman citizen: A prosopographical study of Cn. Cornelius
Lentulus Marcellinus*
by *Gostanian, Patricia Ann* <javascript:void(0);>, M.A., California State
University, Fresno, 2007 , 169 pages; AAT 1444976
Abstract (Summary)

This study examines the ancestry, life, and accomplishments of Cn. Cornelius
Lentulus Marcellinus, an aristocratic citizen of the late Roman Republic.
Primary and secondary sources were researched and scattered references
concerning Marcellinus were correlated to recreate his life in a holistic
manner, within the context of the tumultuous last decades of the republic.
Marcellinus's actions as *paterfamilias, * patron, soldier, politician, and
priest are analyzed to uncover his identity as one of the "lesser" men of a
generation which included the famous "greater" men such as Pompey, Caesar,
Crassus, and *Cicero*. Re-evaluation of the ancient evidence from this new
perspective, centered holistically on Marcellinus, provided new insights for
interpretation of the data. Marcellinus represents a large number of
citizens in the late Roman Republic who sustained Roman society by
performing private and public duties with integrity and honor in opposition
to the rising tide of greed and political ambition.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79060 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: Style and character in Ciceronian oratory
*Style and character in Ciceronian oratory*
by *Samponaro, Laura M.* <javascript:void(0);>, Ph.D., Columbia University,
2007 , 280 pages; AAT 3249124
Abstract (Summary)

This study of the development of Ciceronian ethos tracks how details of
syntax and rhetoric connect *Cicero's* style with his politics. Both direct
and indirect means of character building are analyzed. *Cicero's* ethical
style, his unique brand of self-representation, is consistent yet flexible;
variations show how Ciceronian *decorum * unites form and content, eloquence
and wisdom (Introduction). Since manners are morals for *Cicero*,
constructing ethos is both an intellectual and moral activity and is
prerequisite for good statesmanship.

*Cicero* meets, subverts, and reconfigures the expectations of his * novus
homo * role in the *Verrines * (ch.1). Exploiting his position as an
insider/outsider, *Cicero* depicts himself as solely capable of preserving
senatorial *auctoritas * . Relying on the same means to achieve conflicting
ends, this careful style reflects the delicate maneuvering of the new man
who unites opposite qualities in one ethos.

The elegant ethical style of the *Pro Murena * (ch.2) showcases
*Cicero's*ability to adopt potentially conflicting personae as consul.
Emphasizing his
own versatility at the expense of his opponents' inflexibility,
*Cicero*makes rhetorical virtuosity a virtue and a consular
*officium * .

The inflated *post reditum * ethical style of the * Pro Milone * (ch.3)
reflects *Cicero's* attempt to transform forensic and political failure into
success. Relying on *ornatus * , a luxuriant yet strained style, and former
*novus homo * tactics, *Cicero* turns political liabilities into assets and
sets aright in speech a world turned upside down.

The *Second Philippic * (ch.4) illustrates *Cicero's* late ethical style
with its shifting viewpoints, contrary to facts, and unfulfilled wishes.
This crisis style, an amalgam of *Cicero's* previous ethical styles, becomes
more brittle and disjunctive reflecting *Cicero's* shift towards a Catonian
view of reality, in which he, his style, and Rome must be sacrificed in
order to be preserved.

The Conclusion argues that paradox, the resolution of the contrary into the
compatible, and the fragile balance of opposites that characterize *Cicero's
* ethical style result from the need for consensus in deliberative politics.
The flexible ethical style, the variation of which signals continuity, is
the model for the republican style in which free governments are constituted
and maintained through speech.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79061 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: The changing role of the Roman matron in the Republican period
*The changing role of the Roman matron in the Republican period*
by *Doane, Denise Alyson* <javascript:void(0);>, M.A., California State
University, Long Beach, 2007 , 77 pages; AAT 1448092
Abstract (Summary)

The main goal of this paper is to reexamine the changing role of the Roman
matron in the Republican period, thus demonstrating what sort of late
Republican behaviors were both morally and socially accepted. This paper
attempts to broaden similar interpretations of women's actions, when they
did or did not cross the boundaries of acceptable behavior, focusing on how
they have been interpreted and presented by ancient authors.

It seems they deliberately portrayed women like Clodia and Sassia as acting
inappropriately on the grounds that they lived in open disregard of social
norms. However, a thorough examination of *Cicero's* *Letters * reveals the
notion that was, with greater economic freedom matrons engaged in
lives of *avaritia
* and *luxuria * , was not always true. The example of Terentia shows us
that, on occasion, it was acceptable for Roman matrons to become involved in
politics, but only if their main concern was for their families.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79062 From: Cato Date: 2010-08-02
Subject: PETITIO ACTIONIS - FALSUM
C. Equitius Cato senatore Memmio Albucio consule omnibusque in foro SPD


I, Gaius Equitius Cato, announce my intention to the consul, acting on behalf of the vacant praetura, to bring the charge of FALSUM against M. Moravius Piscinus.


(A) He called the comitia curiata to witness the appointment of a dictator despite the fact that no such appointment has been made:

--------

"M. Moravius Piscinus Pontifex Maximus Lictoribus omnibus s. p. d.

All Lictores curiati of Nova Roma are to assemble for the Comitia Curiata beginning at 00.00 hours CET Roma (18.00 hrs EST) on IV Kal. Sext. (29 July) in order to invest Gnaeus Equitius Marinus, Censoirus et Magister Populi designatus, with imperium for the office of dictator." - from message 78750, Mon Jul 26, 2010 6:06 pm


--------

to which Gn. Equitius Marinus himself wrote:

--------


"I am NOT taking any oath of office until such time as the full Senate shall be properly called by both Consuls to vote on the question. (Reading that last sentence, I should also make clear that I require a proper majority vote of the Senate before I will take office.)...Please ask the Consuls to provide us all with a properly called session of the Senate to address the question that hangs over us all." - from message 78961, Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:30 am

--------


(B) He has attempted to force members of the comitia curiata to break the law and make themselves liable to charges under Nova Roman law, and he has illegally attempted to "dismiss" at least one lictor in retaliation for refusing to break the law per his direct instructions.

The comitia curiata is given the authority "To invest elected and appointed magistrates with Imperium..." (Const. N.R. III.A.1)

As Gn. Equitius Marinus has been neither elected nor appointed to any office, the lictors cannot be compelled to break the law by investing him with imperium; yet in direct contradiction to this, Moravius Piscinus has threatened the lictors openly - and even attempted to unilaterally "dismiss" one already:


---------

"Any lictor who disobeys this injunction of the Constitution by openly refusing or neglecting to perform your constitutional duty is always subject to removal from office by the Collegium Pontificum. I would hope we don't have to come to that...So, if you oppose the dictatorship, just don't post a witness statement. And don't tell me or anyone, publicly or privately, that you are knowingly not posting a witness statement." - from message 78900, Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:08 am

"You have received your instructions as have all other Lictores curiati. My instructions were that if you disagreed with the decision of the Senate that you should remain silent. As you have done otherwise ... you are dismissed from the Comitia Curiata and your appointment as a Lictor shall be reviewed by the Collegium Pontificum at its next session." - from message 79017, Sun Aug 1, 2010 7:47 pm

----------


Under our law, the crime of FALSUM is defined - in part - as

"It shall be an offence knowingly and intentionally to provide false or misleading information to other persons or bodies in such a way as to hinder them in the fulfillment of their legal duties, to induce them to part with any property or surrender any right which is theirs, or to incite them to perform an action detrimental to their interests. This includes (but is not limited to) intentional lies in front of a legal Novoroman tribunalis and knowingly providing false information to a Novoroman magistrate." - lex Salicia poenalis, pars altera 16.1


By threatening the comitia curiata - and illegally attempting to carry through on his threat to act against any who disobeyed his instructions - Moravius Piscinus has knowingly and intentionally provided false or misleading information to other persons or bodies (the supposed appointment of Gn. Equitius Marinus to the dictatorship to the comitia curiata and, by extension, the whole citizenry of the Respublica) in such a way as to incite the lictors to perform an action detrimental to their interests (breaking their oath to uphold the Constitution, which empowers them to invest *only* appointed or elected magistrates with imperium). He has committed the crime of FALSUM.

Valete,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79063 From: Chantal Gaudiano Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Regarding Witness Statement
Since I haven't been able to read messages from the main list for a bit, I now see from the backlog of email that there is dispute about the procedures of the election of Cn. Equitius Marinus as Dictator, and he has told me that he has declined to take the oath of office until these things can be resolved.

In light of that, I hereby withhold my witness statement until such time as all matters can be settled to the nominee's and Senate's satisfaction that everything has been done according to the rules.

At that time, I will gladly repeat my witness statement.

Respectfully,

Paulla Corva Gaudialis
Lictrix Curiata Novae Romae


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79064 From: aerdensrw Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: Marriage and divorce in NR
P. Corva Gaudialis L. Antoniae Aurigae s.p.d.

Oh, that sounds beautiful! Congratulations and my very best wishes to you and your new husband!


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "fauxrari" <drivergirl@...> wrote:
>
> I just married the man of my dreams, Marcus Valerius Brutus in an olive garden in a traditional confferatio ceremony. It was awesome! I hope we can post photos/videos soon. I don't have anything, since I was so busy, but it was great fun!
>
> L. Antonia Auriga
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "marcushoratius" <MHoratius@> wrote:
> >
> > M. Moravius Piscinus Quiritibus, cultoribus Deorum et omnibus s. p. d.
> >
> > Ancient Romans had different forms of marriage. The one generally used had both families come together and involved the transfer of the bride from her father's authority and from her mother to come under the authority of her husband's pater familias. The pater familias would act as auspex to consider whether the Gods favored the marriage. The bride and groom married one another in front of witnesses, exchanging symbols of their roles in the marriage and sharing a meal. Sometimes witnessing the marriage even went to the point that the marriage bed was set in the atrium of the front of the house and first night was spent there while the festivities of the families continued. However, the marriage was not consumated until the following night, after the bride had been conducted through ceremonies by the women of the groom's family. How elaborate or simple a ceremony might be depended on the wealth and status of the families, but these were not formal affairs as we might hold today.
> >
> > An exception is the special ceremony called a confarreatio. It was essentially the same kind of ceremony between two families, but a little more elaborate in certain features. The bride and groom married each other. Sacerdotes were there to guide them in the ceremony and witness it, but basically the bride and groom performed the marriage ritual. Special words were said at the time when the bride and groom shared their meal. Among the ten witnesses required for a marriage in a confarreatio these had to include the pontifex maximus, flamen Dialis and the flamenica Dialis. This form of marriage was not restricted to patricians alone. We know that before the XII Tabulae that patricians and plebeians intermarried and used such ceremonies, and that later with the decline of the number of patrician gentes, confarreationes became more common rather than less.
> >
> > Divorce was readily available to Romans. How one divorced depended on the kind of marriage one had. There was even a ceremony of divorce, supposedly performed in some reversal of the wedding ceremony. However, no divorce was allowed from a confarreatio. That was one of the features of a confarreatio that differed from other Roman marriages.
> >
> >
> > For Nova Roma, the religio Romana has been legally recognized in the United States as a religious tradition. Communities and temples have been incorporated, court rulings have recognized the religio Romana in cases involving marriages and child custody. We cultores Deorum Populi Romani actually have more rights in the US than Gays and Lesbians in most states.
> >
> > The natural step is now to be recognized in another country. Canada is our most likely choice. They have a process for doing so. One requirement is that we provide the provincial authorites with a marriage ceremony that we use. And of course what we submit will have to conform to both Canadian law and our own traditions. What we submit does not have to be a confarreatio, and I am thinking that we might submit two marriage ceremonies as recognized by our tradition.
> >
> > As in the US where the laws vary from state to state, marriage laws vary between Canadian provinces. Our main problem in Canada for us is that there are so few cultores Deorum, but that won't necessarily harm our opportunity to be recognized in Canada. We would choose a province in which same-sex marriages are legal. We would then become one of the few religious organizations providing marriage ceremonies for Gays and Lesbians. The process of being recognized in Canada takes five years, so with our lack of cultores there, providing this service for a select community beyond our own is a consideration to improve our chances of attaining recognition. Once we were, then we would be an international religious organization and might be able to gain recognition in other countries as well. It is a very difficult process.
> >
> > My personal views on same-sex marriage is that I approve of it on moral and legal grounds. I cannot buy the argument, made by my neighbor along with others, that allowing Gays to marry will somehow threaten my marriage. My second marriage will celebrate its thirty-seventh anniversary next Wednesday (yes, I was married once before, for some months when I was seventeen before my wife and child died.) I would rather have young Gays living next door to me than those Born Again Christians I got now as neighbors, and whose idea of marriage is that a woman should be submissive to her husband. That attitude is more repulsive to me than any consensual acts between adults. I didn't marry to have a sex slave, and I wouldn't be married to the same woman for so long if that was all our relationship was based on. There is no morality in depriving Gays and Lesbians from sharing in loving relationship and companionship. And as far as treating anyone as second class citizens with fewer legal rights than others, I am strongly opposed to legislation that outlaws same-sex marriages.
> >
> > There is some mention of same-sex marriages having taken place in ancient Rome. They were not legally recognized. They were not approved socially in most cases. Homosexual sex was approved, under certain circumstances, as it was considered to be natural and one always had to abide with one's nature. But homosexual preference was thought unnatural and not generally approved. Roman men were expected to exhibit virility, in the Roman sense of the meaning, even if they did have homosexual preferences. Effeminate heterosexuals would be looked down upon moreso than a 'virile' homosexual. You might look at transvestites in India today to see how they are treated and get some idea of how Romans would have thought, too.
> >
> > For women, we know so little really. Lesbianism would probably have been considered natural. Nothing would be thought wrong of a woman being serviced in her desires by someone of a lower class, whether a man or woman. It wouldn't even be considered unfaithfulness to her husband to have a slave provide sexual pleasure to her, just a master demanding her privileges. Only between social peers might a woman be faulted for having sex with a man. But I doubt whether Romans would think much of women engaging in lesbian sex between social peers, or maintaining a lesbian relationship over many years. Roman social norms would never permit women to "marry" and thus move out from under some man's authority. Thus same-sex marriage for either Gays or Lesbians would not be traditional in the religio Romana.
> >
> > However, I would hope we as individuals and as a community have grown to respect one another more over these many centuries. What does it mean to be married? Well, obviously I am not going to accept some biblical idea on which the laws of most of Western Civilization is based today. Women subservient to men for the sole purpose of procreation and in order to keep them under control. Sorry, I find the notion of "barefoot in the winter and pregnant in the summer" to be very offensive.
> >
> > The traditional role of a woman in a Roman household was that of Domina. She was every bit equal to her husband, superior to him even in some sense while in the house, where he was the master outdoors, but she could still wield authority on the family's estate. In fact the State depended on strong, independent women to maintain the farms and estates when men were off to war. The Domina tended to all of the family's cultus Deorum within the household itself. Thus she was primarily responsible for the cultus for the Penates, Vesta, and other domestic Gods and Goddesses, including the cultus for the family Lares. She was the one who protected the family, through her relationship with the Gods, anointing the house, placing charms at the windows and doors to keep out disease, ill-rumors, and evil. She was primarily the one who cared for the sick, or saw that they were cared for, often by invoking the Gods or by visiting the temples, where she might also acquire herbal medicines for her household. The Domina began each morning with the household gathered for religious ceremonies, the husband performed them at the main meal of the day. She was the last to bed, tending to all things, and most specifically to the family's hearth at the end of each day. It is this role as the center of the family's religious life that certain features of Roman marriage ceremonies take place. No husband could bless his own house, because he was necessarily too involved in public affairs. He needed a wife to intervene on his behalf with the Gods in special ways that most men were thought unable to do. Most men, but not all.
> >
> > It is well known that men were prohibited from entering the templum of the Bona Dea. Most men, that is. However, Ovid does says that some men, "chosen by the Goddess Herself," were permitted to enter. Who? Eunuchs? I doubt the Romans would mean that; eunuchs were foreign and not thought of as men. Homosexuals or effeminate heterosexuals? Possibly, as that could be the meaning of having been "chosen" as such men are thought to be in other cultures. Priests, shamans, and the like are generally dressed in a costume that resembles that of women, since women are often taken to be closer to the Gods than men, and those men who are close to the Gods are therefore designated in this way as apart from other men.
> >
> > In any marriage, I think it is more a matter of a partnership where each have their individual roles to play, but where both must be able to exchange roles when needed. It doesn't really matter today whether it is the man or the woman, or either partner in a Lesbian or Gay relationship, that takes on which roles. Both must be fulfilling their parts in the relationship and fulfilling each other. And it is nobody else's business. As long as one or both partners take on the role of Domina and preserve a cultus Deorum for their household, i can approve of marriage between Gays and Lesbians.
> >
> > For us, I think we should leave the matter to the local communities we create to decide whether they will perform same-sex marriages, in accordance with local laws. We are not going to force communities to perform such ceremonies, as they are not traditionally Roman anyway, but neither should we permit narrow-mindedness to prohibit such ceremonies from our modern community of cultores Deorum.
> >
> > For some perspective, I recommend all cultores Deorum to read "Lover's Legends: The Gay Greek Myths," by Andrew Calimach, 2002. I was one of those asked by the author to offer a review of his book, and I have been recommending ever since. As a heterosexual male I found the book fascinating and I thought Andrew had handled his topic extremely well. It is not a "gay" book as such, but sought to restore the myths to a perspective on homosexuality more in keeping with the ancient Greeks than with the Victorians who alterred the stories for Christian tastes. It may help some here begin to move away from the Judeo-Christian-Muslim perspective that infects society with its prejudices, and develop a new perspective based more on the ancient cultures that our ancestors knew.
> >
> >
> > Christina, there are two cultures known to practice polygamy where one woman marries multiple men. One is in southern India where she marries a group of brothers, and it is practiced so that the family land is not divided up between sons. It is not a good arrangement for women. One husband is bad enough; divorce doesn't exist so the brothers basicly gangbang her to death when they want a young woman. Polygamy with more than one woman married to a man is accepted in some cultures, again for the benefit of men. I suppose I wouldn't object if the women were old enough to actually choose to enter such a marriage, were not coerced in anyway, and it was legal under local law. But that has rarely been the case. Paraguay, after the Great Paraguan War, was given special papal dispensation to allow men to marry two women in an effort to restore that country's population. In that case women controlled their situation. Polygamy is practiced today alongside with coerced marriage of young girls as sex slaves, not really as wives. That is not to say there are not healthy polygamous marriages or that polygamy is naturally exploitive. Any form of marriage can be abused and exploitive. So while I might be open to the possibility, I know the reality does not meet with my approval.
> >
> > The general rule for us is to abide with local custom. Just as with same-sex marriage, if it is locally legal, then our cultores can legally participate in such marriages. Missouri does not have legal polygamous marriage. Try moving to Malasia, Indonesia, or Uganda.
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Christina Moseley" <cheetahgirl5@> wrote:
> > >
> > > What about polyamorous relationships? Me and my boyfriend are getting
> > > married in the Roman marriage first, then in the state marriage. However,
> > > my boyfriend was sure that we can fit another person in there but in
> > > Missouri there is a law against bigamy.
> > >
> > > On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 18:35:20 -0500, Cato <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Cato Maiori sal.
> > > >
> > > > If we already have the ancient ceremony of the actual Roman
> > > > confarreatio, why does Piscinus need to "work" on it? Wouldn't it be
> > > > more appropriate to use it instead of making something up?
> > > >
> > > > Vale,
> > > >
> > > > Cato
> > > >
> > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> Salve Nero;
> > > >> I'm gay and I can tell you the PM Piscinus is absolutely fine with gay
> > > >> marriage. So absolutely, of course you don't need a priest for Roman
> > > >> marriage at all. Mostly marriage in Rome was by cohabitation. Usus.In
> > > >> ancient Rome when C. Livia married G. Titinius she was still C. Livia,
> > > >> the 2 partners kept their respective names. The children took
> > > >> the father's name.
> > > >>
> > > >> In the CP Piscinus is just working on confarreatio, a special kind of
> > > >> marriage ceremony it's for all those couples who desire it. I hope
> > > >> this is helpful, I'm sure the PM will be happy to discuss this. Me too,
> > > >> as Flaminica Carmentalis I have a deep interest in seeing the next
> > > >> generation of Roman children! adoption was a
> > > >> normative part of Roman family life!
> > > >> di tibi faveant
> > > >> M. Hortensia Maior
> > > >> Flaminica Carmentalis
> > > >>
> > > >> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gnaea Livia Ocella" <lbciddio@>
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Salve, Nero,
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I was just thinking about this a few days ago while reading Juvenal's
> > > >> second satire. He seems to have taken a decidedly negative view of the
> > > >> possibility of gay marriage, but I must not be alone in hoping that
> > > >> Nova Romans are a bit more accommodating and accepting... though the
> > > >> tweaking of an ancient form of marriage dictated by very traditional
> > > >> religious regulations may be a more serious matter.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I am eager to hear the answers to Nero's questions from someone with
> > > >> more knowledge of the Religio and the marriage rites than I. My own
> > > >> knowledge of Roman marriage is limited to the leges put in place during
> > > >> Augustus' time.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Vale, et valete,
> > > >> > Livia Ocella
> > > >> >
> > > >> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Nero" <rikudemyx@> wrote:
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Salvete Omnes,
> > > >> > > With the talk about the Confarreationes in August, I was curious
> > > >> about gay marriages in our community. I doubt that I'm the only gay
> > > >> citizen and so I'm sure that the topic must flit through some minds.
> > > >> Would a priest sanction a gay union? Which of the two would gain the
> > > >> other's titles? Would the religio's ceremony stay the same or would
> > > >> some tweaking have to be done?
> > > >> > > DVIC
> > > >> > > Nero
> > > >> > >
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
> > >
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79065 From: Diana Octavia Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: Your "instructions" to the Lictores curiati
Well said Consul!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Publius Memmius Albucius" <albucius_aoe@...>
To: "Marcus Moravius Horatius Piscinus" <mhoratius@...>
Cc: <nova-roma@yahoogroups.com>; "M. Corva Gaudialis" <aerdensrw@...>;
"Caeso Fabius Quintilianus" <christer.edling@...>; "Fabius Buteo
Modianus" <tau.athanasios@...>; "Cnaeus Cornelius Lentulus"
<cn_corn_lent@...>; "Palladius" <bcatfd@...>; "Gnaeus Equitius
Marinus" <gawne@...>; <canadaoccidentalis@...>;
<c.curius@...>; "Gaius Petronius Dexter"
<jfarnoud94@...>; "Cornelius Felix Sulla" <robert.woolwine@...>;
"Livia Plauta" <livia.plauta@...>; <byzandroid@...>;
<magisterbrodd@...>; "M. Arminius Maior" <marminius@...>; "Q.
Caecilius Metellus" <postumianus@...>; "Q. Fabius Maximus"
<qfabiusmaxmi@...>; <rory12001@...>; "Ullerius Venator"
<famila.ulleria.venii@...>; <teleriferchnyfain@...>;
<marcus@...>; <nrcomitiacuriata@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 12:48 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Your "instructions" to the Lictores curiati


>
>
> Pontifico maximo Moravio s.d.
>
>
>
> I have been requested to intervene in this matter, whose I was not aware,
> until now, of the details. I must say that I am discovering them, as the
> letter below that you sent to Valerianus lictor, with surprise, deception
> and, I cannot hide it, a real irritation.
>
>
>
> You seem having taken no account of my letter of last July 11th, that you
> will find again at the end of this letter.
>
>
>
> In addition, beside behaving with a lictor curiatus as if he was one of
> your personal slaves - and I am sure that you would better treat your
> domestic staff - you brought to him, in order to make pressure on him,
> inexact information that a less patient observer than I am may may say
> that they are... just lies.
>
> You perfectly know that Hon. Marinus has not been appointed dictator for I
> have legally vetoed the session where in this blitz-decision was
> submitted, and for its convening did not respected our Constitution. As a
> consequence, there exists no legal decision that a lictor or any officer
> or magistrate would be obliged, except if he intends to take part to a
> coup d'etat, applying and respecting. In addition, every lictor who would
> currently refuse to defer to this inconstitutional "decision" just honors
> his/her name, her/his office and the Republic.
>
>
>
> I must here underline that, if the lictors are effectively appointed by
> the Collegium Pontificum, they cannot be thus dismissed by you from the
> Comitia curiata, if and when you decide, just because their individual or
> political positions are not conform to your own political line.
>
>
>
> I ask you, for the second and last time, and independantly of your other
> positions, to change your behavior towards our lictors curiati and to come
> back to the observation of the Law.
>
>
>
> Concerning C. Tullius Valerianus, and for the sole fact he just defended
> the legality of our institutions, be informed that I will consider with
> the utmost attention the measures that you are intending to take or
> propose the Collegium Pontificum. I wish that your decision be the wise
> one, for I do not wish being obliged intervening, what I constantly
> avoided doing since last January, in the affairs of our Collegia.
>
>
>
> Vale,
>
>
>
>  
>
> P. Memmius Albucius cos.
>
>  
>
>
>
> ______________Kal.
> Aug._____________________________________________________________________________________________________
>
>  
>
> M. Moravius Piscinus C. Tullio Valeriano dicit:
>
> You have received your instructions as have all other Lictores curiati.
> The appointment of Cn. Marinus was legally approved by the majority of the
> Senate in a vote of 16 to 1, posted by the Tribunus Plebis, and
> acknowledged by both consuls as so reported. The Constitution does not
> give any individual Lictor or the Comitia Curiata as a whole to depart
> from the decision of the Senate.
>
> My instructions were that if you disagreed with the decision of the Senate
> that you should remain silent. As you have done otherwise and have
> attempted to encourage other Lictores to disobey their constitutional
> duties, you are dismissed from the Comitia Curiata and your appointment as
> a Lictor shall be reviewed by the Collegium Pontificum at its next
> session.
>
>  
>
>
>
> ______________________________a.d. Idus Quint. (July
> 11)____________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
> Moravio Pontifico maximo s.d.
>
> I am writing to you about your last address (below) to the lictors of our
> Comitia curiata. Even if the matter itself is now behind us, I feel
> obliged, once again, as consul, to remind our Law. For your words below
> exceed the normal legal relation which should exist between the comitia
> and yourself.
>
> The Comitia curiata is not, as you affirm, a 'religious institution'. It
> is a public assembly of our Republic, which is recognized as such by our
> Constitution. The fact that the lictors curiati be appointed by the
> Collegium Pontificum, and that the Comitia be called to order by the PM
> does not transform it in some group "under the authority of the Collegium
> Pontificum" and would be required to apply its rulings, as simple scribes
> would.
>
> As well, the members of the Comitia hold their first duties, as every
> member of our Republic constitutional bodies, towards the comitia as a
> whole and our Republic, and are not, as you write it, "obliged to abide
> with decreta issued by the Quattor Summa Collegia", a fortiori when those
> decreta are unconstitional.
>
> Again, you cannot "instruct" the members of any comitia: the lictors
> curiati are not the soldiers of a Novaroman legion placed under the
> command of the pontifex maximus, how ever be his military skills.
>
> Things work here as like in every (democratic) assembly: you are to
> convene, as pontifex maximus, the comitia, whose members vote as
> responsible adults and as they see fit. Naturally, you may campaign to try
> to influence their vote. No law forbids this.
>
> On the fact that "the Collegium Augurum has declared the praetores
> suffecti in vitio creati. As such, (you) will not call the Comitia Curiata
> to assemble against the decretum augurum.", I cannot but take notice of
> your intention.
>
> Your sentence "If you cannot abide with the decreta of our Collegia, then
> you ought to resign now. Also, violations of instructions or decreta are
> subject to a determination by the Collegium Pontificum." sounds more like
> a blackmail and an illegal pressure on the lictors, and based, in
> addition, on the violation of the constitution that I have stated in
> another circumstance. Such argument is not conform to the dignitas of your
> office, Pontifex Maxime, and I suggest that you come back to a behavior
> more conform with the laws of our Republic and our Roman values and
> virtues.
>
> Vale respectfully Pontifex Maximus,
>
>
> Albucius cos.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> M. Moravius Piscinus Pontifex Maximus lictoribus s. p. d.
>
> Let me make some things clear right now. The Constitution states:
>
> III. Comitia
>
> A. The comitia curiata (Assembly of Curiae) shall be made up of thirty
> lictores curiati (lictors of the curia), appointed to their positions by
> the collegium pontificum (college of pontiffs). It shall be called to
> order by the Pontifex Maximus, and the collegium pontificum shall set the
> rules by which the comitia curiata shall operate internally.
>
> The Comitia Curiata is a religious institution. It is solely under the
> authority of the Collegium Pontificum. It may only be called to assemble
> by the Pontifex Maximus. No lictor may act alone, and no witness
> statements have any validity without the Comitia Curiata first being
> called into session.
>
> As a religious institution, members of the Curiata, beginning with the
> Pontifex Maximus, and then all lictores curiati appointed by the Collegium
> Pontificum, are obliged to abide with decreta issued by the Quattor Summa
> Collegia. On the other hand, under the Constitution IV.A.9 lictores
> curiati are specifically not magistrates and are not, therefore, under the
> authority of any magisterial edicta. A magisterial edictum cannot be
> issued to instruct the Comitia Curiata or the lictores curiati on their
> duties. Only the Collegium Pontificum has constitutional authority over
> the procedures of the Comitia Curiata.
>
> The Collegium Augurum has declared the praetores suffecti in vitio creati.
> As such, I will not call the Comitia Curiata to assemble against the
> decretum augurum.
>
> All lictores curiati are instructed *not* to issue witness statements
> until and unless the Pontifex Maximus first calls the Comitia Curiata into
> seesion and so instructs the lictores curiati to witness the proper
> election of magistrates.
>
> If you cannot abide with the decreta of our Collegia, then you ought to
> resign now. Also, violations of instructions or decreta are subject to a
> determination by the Collegium Pontificum.
>
>
>  
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79066 From: A. Apollónius Cordus Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: On the trial of M. Hortensia
A. Apollonius omnibus sal.

As you may remember, I don't like participating in this e-mail list these days. Some of you may be able to sympathize. So I hope you'll understand that I wouldn't be here, and wouldn't trouble you with this message, if I didn't think it fairly important.

I say that at the outset because it's going to be a very long message - I could split it into sections but that would unnecessarily fill the inboxes of those who have no interest in the topic - and because I want to encourage you to read it anyway. I want you to read it whether or not you like M. Hortensia, whether or not you believe she committed the crime for which she was prosecuted, whether or not you care. I want you to read it if you care about standards of fairness and justice in this community.

And one last thing before I start: this message is not about whether M. Hortensia is guilty. As her advocate, it was my duty to argue that she was not. The trial is over, and I am not her advocate any more. She is still my friend, but so is Q. Metellus, who prosecuted her, and so (I hope) is C. Equitius, who was the person whose rights she was prosecuted for infringing. In short, I have no professional or personal stake in this case any more. I'm here as a private individual who happens to have considerably more knowledge of what went on during these legal proceedings than almost all of you, and who is troubled by that knowledge, and who thinks you should be troubled too.


At some time before 17 June this year the consul P. Memmius received a petitio actionis from Q. Metellus. A petitio actionis, literally 'the seeking of a judicial process', is essentially a request for permission to take somebody to court. The receipt of such a request triggers the beginning of the process prescribed by the lex Salicia judiciaria (supplemented by the lex Salicia poenalis). Now, anyone at all familiar with Roman legal procedure will recognize the process set out there as a very close copy of what's called the 'formulary system', which was one of the main ways ancient Roman magistrates administered justice from about 125 BC to the end of the republic and after. In fact the Salician procedure is, on paper, quite possibly Nova Roma's most accurate legislative reproduction of an ancient Roman institution or process. But of course the lex Salicia isn't a complete description of every detail and every contigency of the formulary system, and its English is occasionally imperfect or imprecise, so it still needs to be interpreted by the magistrates who are applying it in a given case.

The need for interpretation evidently arose as soon as Albucius received this petitio. Because, you see, he was a consul, and the lex Salicia doesn't give consules any power to accept or reject or otherwise deal with petitiones actionis. It only mentions praetores. But at that time there were no praetores. What was he to do? Other leges were of no assistance. The lex constitutiva says nothing at all about judicial proceedings, and does not give any magistrate any power to deal with such proceedings. Within the written law of Nova Roma there is nothing that explicitly gives any ordinary magistrate any judicial powers except the leges Saliciae. Now, some people in Nova Roma believe that the lex constitutiva and the written leges made under its authority are the only legitimate source of any magistrate's power, and that if neither the lex constitutiva nor any other lex explictly says that a magistrate can do something then that magistrate can't do that thing. There are others who say that there are other sources of law, principally ancient Roman law and custom, that can properly be used to supplement the written law as long as the written law doesn't explicitly contradict them. We don't need to consider which of those groups is right. We need only observe that the consul must be in the latter group, because after due consideration he decided that he, as consul, did have the power to deal with the petitio, despite the fact that nothing can be found in the written law of Nova Roma that gives him this power. He must, in fact, have drawn this power from ancient Roman law and practice: of course in the ancient republic a consul did have the power to preside over judicial proceedings. Personally, for what it's worth, I agree with him.

So Albucius then had to consider whether to accept or reject the petitio, applying the test in chapter II of the lex Salicia judiciaria. The lex Salicia doesn't say that the accused person needs to be notified at this stage or allowed to say anything about it. But of course we should bear in mind that in the formulary procedure, on which the lex Salicia is very closely based, the accused person would necessarily have been physically present at this stage and would have been able to (and in fact would have been asked to) participate in the discussion. We should also bear in mind that, regardless of Roman precedent, it is probably sensible for a magistrate to involve the accused person at this stage, in case that person is able to point out a good reason why the petitio should not be accepted; otherwise the the good reason will only be pointed out *after* the magistrate has already accepted the petitio, and the magistrate will have revisit the decision to accept it. Nonetheless, I don't say that there was any legal obligation on Albucius to involve Major in things at this stage, and he decided not to. Whether he had any discussions with Metellus about it I don't know. But he accepted the petitio and, in accordance with the lex, told Major that he had done so.

This is, of course, where I became involved, because Major asked me to be her advocate. I quickly got in touch with Albucius and Metellus to say that I was acting as advocate and that the first thing I would be doing was to request a reconsideration of the decision to accept the petitio because it did not, I argued, pass the legal test in ch. II of the lex. At this point two curious and surprising things happened.

The first was that Albucius indicated that he was not prepared to communicate with me directly about the case at this stage. This was, he later explained, because the lex Salicia does not explicitly say that advocates can be used until the trial itself begins, and he did not want to do anything that was not explicitly required by the lex. If you contrast this with his decision that he had the power to deal with the petitio despite having no explicit authority in written law to do so, you will see why I call this curious and surprising.

The second curious and surprising thing was that Albucius told Major that he would not consider any challenge to his acceptance of the petitio. He had not given her, or anyone else as far as I know, a chance to make any comments before he accepted the petitio about whether it passed the legal test for acceptance, and he was not going to give her a chance to make such comments after he had accepted it. There was to be no opportunity for Major to point out what she said were solid legal reasons why the petitio was not acceptable according to the test set out in the lex Salicia. Albucius did not explain his refusal to hear these arguments. He had decided that the petitio passed the test. He must presumably have believed, therefore, either that it was totally impossible that he had missed anything when he made that decision, or else that it didn't matter whether his decision was legally right or wrong. Curious and surprising, I say again; and I'm going to go a little further and suggest that perhaps it's beginning to be slightly worrying.


So the process continued. P. Memmius invited both parties to make representations to him before he drew up the formula. The lex Salicia did not explicitly require him to do this: in fact it gives no indication at all that anything should be done between notifying the parties that the petitio has been accepted and issuing the formula. But neither does the lex say that this should not happen, and it is both eminently sensible and in accordance with the way the Roman formulary procedure worked, and I praise Albucius for doing it. I do note, however, that - as I'm sure you've noticed already - his position regarding exactly how the lex should be interpreted and applied seemed at this point to be oscillating quite dramatically between 'I shall do nothing that the lex does not explicitly require me to do' and 'I shall do what I think appropriate so long as the lex does not forbid it.'

Anyway, I did duly make representations to him on M. Hortensia's behalf. Some of them were about procedure. I argued, for example, that there was a substantial risk that he would be seen as prejudiced against Major, in the sense that he would appear to have already made up his mind about important disputed issues in the case: he had made public statements criticizing Major's decisions to place people on moderation (which was what the case was all about) and had vetoed two of those decisions himself, and moreover there were indications that Metellus would actually be using those vetoes as evidence that the decisions in question were illegal. This raised the possibility that the court would be considering questions that its presiding magistrate had already expressed his opinion about in public, and making its decision based on evidence that included statements and actions by the presiding magistrate; clearly, I said, there was a serious risk that the court would not be seen as independent and unbiased. I also argued that the petitio actionis was too vague for Major to respond to it or to make useful suggestions about what the formula ought to say, and more detail ought to be provided by Metellus before the formula was drawn up. In particular, I proposed that Albucius adopt the procedure that was followed at this point under the formulary system, namely that the prosecutor should write a proposed formula and the accused should then respond to it. I had real hopes that he might do this, since he had already followed the formulary procedure by holding this discussion before writing the formula. At the same time, I also put forward as much of a defence to the substance of the charge as Major was able to provide at that point, given the vagueness of the allegations. This included raising various issues related to the interpretation of the offence as it was defined in the lex Salicia poenalis, ch. 17.1.

To my considerable surprise, the next thing Albucius did was to issue a formula. In this formula, he said he had 'duly taken in account' my arguments, but he did not say what his decisions were about any of the questions they raised, let alone give any reasons for those decisions. He simply did not give any indication of having made any attempt to resolve them. He had evidently decided to go ahead as presiding magistrate in spite of my suggestion that he might appear prejudiced: had he decided that there was no risk, or that there was a risk but it didn't matter, or something else? He had evidently decided not to ask Metellus to give any more detail about his allegations or to propose a draft formula, but he hadn't told Major that he wasn't going to do this, so right up to the issuing of the formula we had no idea whether we were going to get any more details or not and whether we would have to respond to a proposed formula. Does it matter? you may ask. It does matter, for three main reasons. First, any decision by a magistrate can be overruled by that magistrate's colleague, and appeal to another magistrate to do exactly this was a well-established part of ancient Roman judicial process. But in order to ask a magistrate to overrule his colleague's decision, you have to actually know what that decision is. By not telling us what he had decided, Albucius made it impossible for us to do anything to challenge those decisions. Secondly, even if we had not wanted to appeal against any of those decisions, we needed to know what they were in order to know how the trial was going to proceed. For example, I had also put forward various arguments about what would happen if the case were transferred to another presiding magistrate. I'd done this partly in case Albucius accepted my argument that he should not preside over the case himself, and partly because elections for the praetura were coming up and I thought it was quite possible that he was intending to issue the formula, then give Metellus some time to collect evidence (which was normal in ancient Roman trials), and then, after new praetores had been elected, to hand over the case to one of them. His failure to respond to these arguments or tell us what he had decided meant that we had no idea how he intended to deal with this issue: would he transfer it to another magistrate or keep it himself? If he transferred it, would he expect the new magistrate to follow his formula? We didn't know, and therefore we couldn't plan. And the third reason this failure matters, which is perhaps the most important reason, is that without giving on-the-record responses to my arguments he left the questions I'd raised unresolved, as far as anyone could tell (or can tell now). How can we be satisfied that these questions were properly dealt with, especially when one of them concerns doubts about the independence and objectivity of the presiding magistrate himself, if we have no idea what his decisions were and how he justified them? At this point I can tell you that I was very seriously worried about the way these proceedings were being conducted.

At the same time that Albucius said he had 'duly taken in account' the documents I'd sent him, he also said that these 'will be sent to the tribunal', i.e. to the judex, who was to be T. Julius. The person who was going to actually decide the outcome of the case. There are two things about this that are a bit worrying. One is that there was no reason to send the documents to Sabinus. They were documents about the formula, how it should be written, whether it should be written at all, what should be in it. Those things were a matter for Albucius alone to decide, and he had done so. He did not give any indication in advance that they would be given to the judex. There was no reason to give them to the judex because they were not designed to have anything to do with the matters that the judex had to consider. In this particular case I couldn't see anything that would actually cause a problem if the judex saw it, so I didn't make any formal objection; but the fact that Albucius decided, without consultation and without warning, to send the judex documents that weren't intended for his consumption is another indication of a not entirely reassuring attitude to the proceedings. What's more important - and this really is important - is that the judex should on no account have had access to any documents that were not also available to both parties. And it seems that he did. Because Albucius' comment about taking the documents into account and sending them to the judex was not just about the documents I'd sent, but about 'the various documents sent to me, specially by the reus'. Which implies, at least to me, that there were some other documents that were *not* sent by the accused, Major, which must presumably have been sent by the only other person involved, namely Metellus. We had not seen these documents. We had had no opportunity to respond to them. And, for all I know, Metellus would never have seen the documents I sent either, if not for the fact that I had sent him copies myself. Now, it would have been bad enough if Albucius had received documents that we hadn't seen; but what's much worse is that these documents were then sent to the judex, and we still hadn't seen them. Meaning that the judex, who had to make the ultimate decision, would be making that decision based on documents that we hadn't seen and couldn't challenge, disagree with, explain, accept, agree with, or respond to in any way at all. That would not have been allowed in an ancient Roman court, it would not be allowed in the criminal courts where I work in the UK, and there is nothing anywhere in the written law of Nova Roma that suggests it should happen here.

At this point I should say something about the appointment of the judex. I think someone may have pointed out on this e-mail list already that this is in contravention of the lex Salicia poenalis, ch. 10.1, which says that a case like this ought to have been heard by a panel of ten judices. Albucius was aware of this, and discussed it with me (and perhaps with Metellus too: I don't know, because this was another occasion on which things were allowed to be said by one party without the other party knowing what was said), and after I had consulted my client I informed him that she did not object to having T. Julius as a single judex. So I do not complain about this. But once again I note that this appears to be Albucius not only adding to but actually pretty much overriding the written law according to his own view of what was appropriate. I just ask you to remember this if we ever in this story find him justifying any particular procedural decision by saying that he did exactly what was required by the lex and did not feel that he could legitimately do anything different.


Now, let's talk about the formula itself, shall we? I think we should, because it's a remarkable document. It's remarkable in bearing almost no resemblance whatsoever to an ancient Roman formula, to what the lex Salicia judiciaria clearly intends a formula to be, or to anything that could possibly make sense within the system that the leges Saliciae create. But before we look at the formula in detail, we need to take a step back and look at the Salician system as a whole. Because one of the best ways to understand a piece of legislation, and therefore to interpret it when it is unclear, is to look at it as a whole and try to understand what it is supposed to accomplish. I've already said something about its similarity to the ancient Roman formulary system, but let's put that aside for a moment and just look at it in its own terms. Its first substantive provision, ch. I, says, 'Any citizen of Nova Roma shall be able to bring an action against another citizen of Nova Roma.' So it's clear immediately that we're dealing with a system that's fundamentally about disputes between citizens. It isn't about the state against the citizen, or the citizen against the state. It isn't about the court having to deal with a certain situation with the help of citizens. It's about two citizens having a dispute about a particular thing and the court providing a mechanism to settle that dispute. More light is shed on the nature of the system by ch. III: 'If the claim is dismissed by the praetores, the actor shall be able to present his case again to the praetores in the future, waiting for two new praetores to be elected by the Comitia if necessary.' What that tells us is this: if someone brings a complaint to the court and that complaint is badly framed or doesn't fit within the framework of the law or has some other flaw, it is not up to the court to investigate or to try to help that person shape his complaint into something that would be valid and acceptable. The court is not supposed to help the parties or take over parts of their jobs. It's their dispute, and the court's job is simply to arbitrate by choosing one side or the other as the winner. I'll pass over the chapters that deal specifically with the formula because I'll need to come back to them soon, but it's enough for now to say that the formula 'instructs the judices on the decision they must take'. Let's move on to the trial itself, and to ch. XII: 'The actor shall present evidence to back his demands, and then the reus shall present evidence to back his defense.' This will sound very familiar to North Americans, Britons, Australians, New Zealanders, and many others, but we should bear in mind that it isn't the way all trials work in every part of the world. There are some legal systems, called inquisitorial systems, in which the judge will take an active role in investigating the complaint that's been raised by gathering facts, questioning witnesses, and ordering documents to be produced. The alternative, namely an adversarial system, is what is familiar in countries that inherited the British legal system, as well as in many international tribunals and others: the judge is expected to act as a detached arbiter, letting the two sides produce their own evidence and ultimately choosing between them. The lex Salicia quite clearly envisages an adversarial system, not an inquisitorial one. It's up to the two parties to put forward their own evidence and arguments. The court is not there to help either side or to become involved in the case. Nor is anyone else expected to get involved or put forward evidence or arguments. No one else is mentioned in the section that deals with the trial process except the praetor, and the only thing it says about that is that '[t]he praetor shall be the final judge to determine what pieces of evidence are relevant to the case.' Nothing about producing evidence or putting forward arguments or making statements. So it's very clearly an adversarial system. And a final thing that makes this even clearer is what happens at the end of the trial. According to ch. XV, after the parties have finished presenting their evidence and arguments the praetor then 'call[s] for sententia' and the judices vote. They have only two options: to condemn or to absolve the accused. They can't give reasons for their decision; they can't decide that the truth lies somewhere in between the two options they've been presented with. All they can do is award the victory to one side or the other. Another feature of the system that's evident from the lex is that there's a division of labour between the praetor and the judex. The praetor is in charge at the initial stage of receiving the petitio, deciding whether it's acceptable, and, if it is, drawing up a formula. After that the praetor continues to be involved, but only on procedural and technical points: whether evidence is or is not admissible, deciding whether the trial should be public or secret, when to call for the judices to vote. In other words the magistrate is in charge of procedure and of keeping the trial running. What the judex does is to actually hear the evidence and the arguments and make the decision. There's no indication that the judex is supposed to have anything to do with procedure: all the procedural points that are mentioned are explicitly assigned to the praetor. The only thing the judex is explicitly commanded to do is to vote.

Let's now go back to that point about the resemblance to ancient Roman procedure. Because it's possible that many of the things the lex specifically says are consistent with the ancient procedure but it still has a different over-all character. Except, no, it has exactly the same over-all character! The formulary system was adversarial, not inquisitorial. The formulary system didn't involve the magistrate helping either side or taking over any part of their jobs. The formulary system didn't allow anyone to present evidence and arguments except the two parties involved in the dispute. The formulary system had a separation of roles between the magistrate and the judex, in which the magistrate handled procedure and technical points while the judex listened to the evidence and arguments and then made the decision, which could only be one option or the other. The whole design of the system is the same. But still, if only we had some sort of hint that this was what the lex was intended to do. Maybe if we look at the preamble, where it says, 'These procedures are based on the Roman republican procedural model, both because it probably is the model that best suits Nova Roma and because it is the basis for all the procedural systems of modern Western nations. Some concessions to Nova Roma's particular structure have had to be made; but, in spirit, it follows the ancient Roman procedure.' Yeah, that would do. In fact I'd say that's pretty much the legislative equivalent of hitting a magistrate round the face with a kipper and saying 'Interpret this lex in accordance with the spirit of the ancient procedures it's explicitly based on!' Wouldn't you?

It's important to get all that clear in our minds before we look at what the lex says the formula should be like, because this bit of the lex is, if you look at it on its own, not all that clear. I'm going to quote it in full:

---
V. Once a claim has been accepted by a praetor, that same praetor shall prepare a formula to present to the iudices. The formula shall consist of a logical statement that instructs the iudices on the decision they must take. The formula shall be structured into four parts: institutio iudicis, intentio, demonstratio and condemnatio. An explanation of each part follows:

A. INSTITVTIO IVDICIS: This clause appoints a certain iudex to judge the case (see below).

B. INTENTIO: This part expresses the claim of the actor; i.e., it shall express what the actor seeks by petitioning the praetor. There are two kinds of intentio: intentio certa, when the facts that lead to the actor's claim are so obvious that they do not need to be proved, and intentio incerta, when the actor must prove the facts that justify his claim.

Example: Intentio Certa: "According to the contract signed by Titius..." Intentio Incerta: "If it is proved that Ticius owes Gaius 1,000 sestertii, Gaius shall pay Ticius that same amount".

C. DEMONSTRATIO: This is the clause that further defines an intentio incerta.

D. CONDEMNATIO: This is the clause that allows the iudices to condemn or absolve.

Example: a formula could be something like this: "Let Sulpicius be the iudex. If it is proved that Ticius owes Gaius 1,000 sestertii, you, iudex, shall condemn Ticius to pay 1,000 sestertii to Gaius; else, you shall acquit Ticius."

The clauses would be: Institutio Iudicis: "Let Sulpicius be the iudex." Demonstratio: "If it is proved that ..." Intentio: "... Ticius owes Gaius 1,000 sestertii ..." Condemnatio: "... you, iudex, shall condemn Ticius to pay 1,000 sestertii to Gaius; otherwise, you shall acquit Ticius."
---

There it is. Now, you can get bogged down in some of these phrases. What does 'express' mean in B? What does 'further define' mean in C? And so on. But the lex also gives you a handy example, which makes it pretty clear: 'Let Sulpicius be the judex. If it is proved that Ticius owes Gaius HS 1,000, you, judex, shall condemn Ticius to pay HS 1,000 to Gaius; otherwise, you shall acquit Gaius.' And it tells you which bit is which. 'Let Sulpicius be the judex'. That's the institutio judicis, the clause that 'appoints a certain judex to judge the case'. Okay, so you choose a judex and then you say 'Let [that person] be judex', that's pretty simple. Next you have a demonstratio that 'further defines' the next bit. How does it do that? Well, apparently it does that by saying 'If it is proved that...' I admit I'm not entirely sure how that counts as 'further defining', but I suspect it probably means that it further limits (which is what 'defines' literally means) the grammatical and procedural role of the next clause. So without the 'If' clause you'd just have a formula saying 'Ticius owes Gaius HS 1,000'. But then you add the demonstratio and it says 'If it is proved that Ticius owes Gaius...' So it makes it clear (demonstrat) that the following clause is what the prosecutor has to prove. The next bit, the intentio, 'express the claim of the actor' by basically summarizing the prosecutor's allegations. The prosecutor says 'Ticius owes me HS 1,000!'. The intentio says 'Ticius owes Gaius HS 1,000'. Very straightforward. And finally the condemnatio, which 'allows the judices to condemn or absolve'. So it says that the judex can condemn Ticius, and says what to condemn him to do (i.e. what the penalty is), or acquit him. And combined with the demonstratio (the 'if' clause) it tells the judex in what circumstances to condemn and in what circumstances to acquit. It all makes a fair bit of sense when you use the helpful example. And you can cross-check this with the wider overview of the system that we've just looked at to make sure it fits with that. Which it does! It's an adversarial system, hence the instruction to the judex is to wait and see whether the prosecutor proves his allegation or not, and then to give the appropriate verdict by choosing one or the other option (he has proved it, condemno, or he hasn't proved it, absolvo). It's got that division of labour, because it contains the judex' instructions for the whole trial: just sit there and work out whether Gaius has proved it or not. It doesn't say anything about making procedural decisions or managing the progress of the case. Just one simple but important task. And, just in case we aren't completely happy with that interpretation, let's cross-check it again by considering the ancient formulary procedure that the lex itself explicitly tells us is the spirit of the system it creates. What do we find? We find that the example given is pretty much a direct translation of an actual Roman formula from an actual Roman legal text-book, and that it's analyzed into exactly the same constituent parts as the Romans analyzed their formulae into. Success! Now we understand what a formula should do: it should name the judex, take the allegation of the prosecutor, put it into the form of a conditional sentence, and tell the judex to condemn the accused if the allegation is proved and to acquit if it isn't. So in the the case of M. Hortensia I was expecting a formula something like this: 'Let [name] be judex. If it is proved that M. Hortensia [did something that amounts to abusus potestatis], you, judex, shall condemn M. Hortensia to [some specific penalty]; otherwise, you shall acquit her.' I didn't know quite what was going to go into those brackets because, as I've said, the allegation in the petitio actionis was pretty vague, but I expected that the necessary detail would be given so that the judex would know what he was actually supposed to be doing.

Shall we look at the actual formula? Let's do that. Here it is. Please read it. All of it:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Novaromatribunalis/message/314

Finished? Well, that wasn't quite what we were expecting, was it? In fact it looks nothing like a Roman formula, nothing like the sort of formula the lex appears to have in mind, and nothing like the example that is specifically set out in the lex. Its article 2 merely states that 'the present case is... an "intentio incerta"', which shows an obvious failure to understand the lex. The lex says very clearly that 'intentio' is the name of part of the formula and an 'intentio incerta' is a type of intentio to be used in certain types of case: an intentio incerta is not a type of case, it is a type of intentio. The lex does not require the formula to specify whether the intentio is certa or incerta, and the example provided in the lex doesn't do this. The section of the formula titled 'demonstratio' has nothing whatsoever in common with the demonstratio of the example in the lex, and in fact nowhere in the entire formula is there even a trace of an 'if' clause. Nor does the formula tell the judex in what circumstances to absolve or condemn: it simply advises him to do one and not to do the other. And in fact this brings me to what's even worse about this formula: it isn't just utterly inadequate, it's completely incompatible with the obvious interpretation of the lex and of the principles of the system the lex is there to create. It clearly has no truck at all with the idea of the presiding magistrate being an impartial figure who doesn't intervene to help either side or to contribute his own arguments or evidence. It 'interprets' Q. Metellus' petitio (thus implicitly supporting my earlier point that the petitio in itself was not sufficiently clear), and then goes into extensive discussion of whether the legal reasoning in the petitio is correct and whether Metellus has produced any evidence to support it. There is not the slightest indication in the lex that a formula should do this, and there is every indication that it should not, especially if we interpret it in the way I've suggested above as the obvious, sensible, coherent, and Roman way to read it. It was unfair to Metellus to criticize him at that stage for failing to produce evidence: the lex doesn't say that the prosecutor has to produce any evidence until the trial begins, the sensible interpretation of the lex doesn't require it, the Roman formulary system did not require it, and as far as I know Metellus had never been told by Albucius that he should produce any. Nor was it remotely appropriate to discuss the legal reasoning of the petitio in the formula. The lex does not provide any room at all for such discussions in its description of the formula or in its example. The place for analysis of the legal basis of the petitio is clearly chapter II of the lex judiciaria, where the presiding magistrate has to decide whether the petitio is 'incongruent', i.e. 'not supported by law, precedent or common sense'. It could hardly be clearer in the lex: if a petitio says that someone should be punished for X and the presiding magistrate's intepretation of the law is that X is not illegal, then that's an incongruent claim and the magistrate should dismiss it. What the magistrate should not do is accept the petitio and then write a formula in which he says that in his opinion the claim is legally flawed (i.e. incongruent)! And then, finally, the formula fails to tell the judex what his task is at all, which is the whole point of the formula. It does not give the judex two clear options to choose between, which is what the judex needs because the lex quite clearly gives him only two possible options when returning his sententia. It does not specify any penalty to be imposed if the judex condemns the accused, which is what the condemnatio is for and which is also plainly required elsewhere in the lex, which refers in ch. XV and XVII to the inclusion of a penalty in the formula. In short, the formula that was issued in this case does not do *any* of the things the lex required it to do except naming the judex, and it *does* do several things that are not only not required by the lex but are clearly incompatible with it and that betray at best a complete misunderstanding of the lex, including things that were unfair in themselves such as criticizing the prosecutor for failing to do something he wasn't required or asked to do, giving an opinion about the prosecutor's legal reasoning, and, worst of all, utterly compromising the impartiality of both the magistrate and the judex by telling the judex what decision he should make about the case.


Well, when I saw that I was pretty perplexed, I can tell you. But even then I hadn't fully understood the extent of Albucius' misinterpretation of the Salician system. I did my best to make sense of the formula within the context of the lex, and what I came up with was this: for some reason he must have decided that, rather than dismissing the petitio, the appropriate thing to do was to accept the petitio but then order the judex to automatically absolve M. Hortensia on the grounds that the petitio was incongruent. It was a bizarre way of doing things, but it was at least a way of arriving at the same result as what ought to have happened earlier, namely dismissing the petitio. It also had analogies in modern legal systems: in many 'common law' countries, for example, if a jury has been empanelled to hear a case and then it becomes clear to the judge that the prosecution has no merit at all the judge will often order the jury to find the accused not guilty without further ado. I thought Albucius was doing something like that, because, well, that was the only way I could make any sense at all of what he was doing.

The next step, then, was obviously for T. Julius the judex to do what the presiding magistrate had instructed him to do. But this didn't happen. In fact, what happened - imagine my bafflement, folks! - was that the trial went ahead. Yes, that's right: the presiding magistrate had issued a formula telling the judex that the prosecution had no merit and was legally flawed, and then the trial carried on as if nothing had happened. What? I mean, what? At this stage I could no longer make any sense at all of what was going on, and I wrote to P. Memmius and to T. Julius to express my concerns. Their responses showed several things. First, they showed that neither of them was observing the clear division of roles in the lex judiciaria between the judex (whose duty is to choose between the prosecutor's case and the defence case) and the presiding magistrate (whose duty is to ensure proper procedures are followed and to make decisions about the admissibility or evidence, the management of the schedule, &c.). It was clear, on the contrary, that the judex was making decisions about procedure and was in charge of the schedule, and that the presiding magistrate accepted no responsibility for ensuring that the judex applied the correct interpretation of the law (in fact Albucius explicitly said that he could not impose his interpretation of the law on Sabinus, although this is precisely what he was supposed to do). In fact Sabinus, on top of making decisions about procedure, even said that he had the power to decide what penalty to impose, and could change his mind about this at any time during the trial, showing a total misunderstanding of the leges Saliciae, which make it quite clear that the penalty is to be determined by the presiding magistrate in the formula and not by the judex, and that the penalty stated in the formula is to be imposed automatically when the accused person is condemned, with no possibility of changing it during the trial. Meanwhile Albucius said that he could not disregard or radically reinterpret the leges of Nova Roma in order to follow Roman custom or his own idea of what was best, even though, as I've mentioned earlier, this is exactly what he had done at least twice before in the court of these judicial proceedings. He also said that the ancient Roman formulary system did not work like the system created by the leges Saliciae, which shows, I suggest, that he had completely misunderstood the leges Saliciae since they patently intend to create, and do create, a system that works very very like the formulary system. What's more, Albucius himself said during this discussion that he found the lex judiciaria very difficult to understand, and expressed the thought that perhaps part of the problem was his understanding of English. And yet he was not prepared to enter into any discussion with me about what the lex meant or how it ought to be interpreted, and he rejected the possibility of using the ancient Roman system, which the preamble of the lex specifically cites, as a guide to its interpretation. In fact he even rejected the guidance that was included within the lex itself: when I pointed out that the formula didn't match the example provided in ch. V of the lex, or the explanation of how the example related to the earlier provisions about the contents of the formula, he said that he regarded these things as a non-mandatory explanation designed to help the magistrate, and therefore he didn't feel obliged to follow them. Yes, you read that correctly: he said he had a lot of trouble understanding the lex, and he said that the example in the lex was there to help him understand it, and he said that this was why he thought it was okay to do something completely different from the example. I know, my mind boggled too. And perhaps even more mind-boggling was the moment when he basically agreed with me that when he interpreted the lex judiciaria in the way he had done he discovered that the lex required him to do things that made very little sense and were often entirely pointless, whereas my interpretation was coherent and made sense. This did not, apparently, make him consider that there was any chance of his interpretation being wrong and mine being right.


Well, after a few e-mails that discussion was duly closed down by both P. Memmius and T. Julius, who made it clear that they did not want to hear any more about it. So, on we went with the trial. There was still no clear definition of what Q. Metellus had to prove before Sabinus could condemn M. Hortensia. There was still no specified penalty to be imposed if he did. We still had a judex who thought he was in charge of questions of procedure, schedule, and law, and we still had a presiding magistrate who let the judex carry on in this way. In fact I know, because Albucius told me, that they had had some private e-mail correspondence about the case before the trial began, and it may well be that they carried on doing so. You remember that earlier I complained about the judex being given documents that had not been seen by both parties. Private (i.e. secret) correspondence between the judex and the presiding magistrate is even more worrying, because it means the judex has seen things that *neither* party has seen. I have no idea what they discussed, except that I know they talked about the schedule. I suspect they also talked about the role of the judex, because otherwise it's unlikely that both of them would have independently come up with the same completely misconceived interpretation of the lex. They may have talked about any number of things, including the merits of the case. We already know that Albucius saw nothing wrong with giving Sabinus advice about what decision to make, because that is precisely what he did in the formula, and that is precisely what he would later do again in his call for a sententia. Perhaps he did it privately as well. In any case, any correspondence between the judex and the presiding magistrate should be shown to the parties, otherwise they can have no idea what is being said and no opportunity to respond to any points that might affect the judex' opinion about the case. This is very basic stuff, people. Any lawyer in any civilized country would be appalled at what was going on in this court.

So, anyway, it was time for opening speeches, and Metellus made his speech. And now, at last, came the clarifications that I had been consistently asking Albucius to require and that Albucius had not required: Metellus voluntarily gave them, because he saw that it wouldn't be a fair trial without them. He abandoned the original vague scope of the petitio actionis and now said that there was only one act that he said was an abusus potestatis, namely the second edictum issued by Major on 6 June. It was an abusus potestatis, he argued, because she restricted C. Equitius' freedom to participate in a public forum and because - and this is crucial - she knew that it was illegal to do so. He asked Sabinus to condemn her only if he, Metellus, could prove beyond reasonable doubt not only that she restricted Cato's freedom but also that she knew it was illegal to do so. In my opening argument I accepted and adopted this approach, and agreed that Sabinus should not condemn Major unless Metellus proved beyond reasonable doubt that she knew or believed she was doing something illegal. And I also said this: 'In view of the agreement between the two parties about this element - the necessity of knowledge, i.e. intention - I do not suppose it is necessary to spend any more time on the point. But if, despite our agreement, you feel inclined to doubt that this element is a necessary and fundamental part of the case that must be proven to you, then I ask you to say so now in order that I may try to persuade you of it.' Sabinus did not say anything about it. But just to make absolutely sure, I contacted him privately (sending a copy also to Albucius and to Metellus, because, as I've mentioned, it is not appropriate for one party to say things to the judex without the other party knowing) before I closed my case, and I asked, 'May I assume that you do not need to be persuaded any further on this point, or would you like to hear more argument about it?' He replied (again with copies to Metellus and Albucius) that there was no need for me to say anything more about it. So right up until the end of the trial, after Metellus and I had both had our last opportunity to address any remaining points of law or fact, both I and Metellus believed that if Sabinus was not persuaded beyond reasonable doubt that Major believed she was doing something illegal then he would absolve her, and we both believed that Sabinus agreed.

Obviously this meant that Major's state of mind was an important issue in the case: did she do something she believed to be illegal? Without proving that, Metellus could not win the case. So I called various witnesses to give evidence about this. I asked them whether they thought she would do anything she believed was illegal. They all said they thought it was very unlikely. Naturally enough, Metellus wanted to cross-examine them. But Sabinus prevented him, saying, 'I'm sorry to say that the
questions you presented here have not any connection with the case... Therefore these questions are not allowed.' There are two things to notice here. The first is that Sabinus was making a decision about the admissibility of evidence. The lex Salicia gives the judex no power to make such a decision. On the contrary, every decision of this kind that is specifically mentioned in the lex is said to be within the power of the praetor, not of the judex. This is also in agreement with the Roman formulary system. Moreover, ch. XIII says 'The praetor shall be the final judge to determine what pieces of evidence are relevant to the case.' So decisions about the relevance of evidence are not only implicitly but explicitly the preserve of the presiding magistrate, not the judex. Sabinus exercised a power that was not his, and Albucius allowed him to do so. The second point is that Sabinus was, at least arguably, wrong. The questions Metellus asked were designed to rebut Major's case that she did not do, and would not have done, anything she thought was illegal - which, as I said above, was a crucial part of what Metellus had to disprove in order to win. He wanted to do this by undermining the credibility of one of my witnesses and by directly challenging the statement of another who said that he had never heard any suggestion that Major was contemplating acting illegally. The questions, in my opinion, were entirely relevant to the case, and Metellus ought to have been allowed to ask them. It was unfair to prevent him, and it was also contrary to the lex Salicia for this decision to be made by the judex.


And the trial went on. We made our closing remarks. Then came the part of the process described by the lex judiciaria, ch. XIV: 'Once both parties have presented their evidence, each party shall have the opportunity to make one final statement in front of the judices, with the actor speaking in the first place. Then the praetor shall call for a sententia (sentence) from the judices, according to paragraph XV, reminding the judices that, in case of doubt, they must *not* condemn the reus.' I'm just going to repeat that last sentence: 'Then the praetor shall call for a sententia (sentence) from the judices, according to paragraph XV, reminding the judices that, in case of doubt, they must *not* condemn the reus'. What, then, does the presiding magistrate have to do at this stage? He has to call for a sententia, i.e. ask the judex to deliver his verdict, and he had to remind the judex not to condemn the accused if he has any doubt about her guilt. Those are the two things, and the only two things, that the lex calls for the presiding magistrate to do at this stage.

Let's see what Albucius did:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Novaromatribunalis/message/360

Did you read it? All of it. Please, do read the whole thing. This is important. We're near the end of my message, and this is possibly the most important part of the whole thing.

Okay, now what did Albucius do here? What he did was this: he took over Metellus' job of prosecuting the case, and he also took over Sabinus' job of settling the case. Metellus, as I mentioned earlier, began the trial by clarifying exactly what his accusation was: Major's second edictum of 6 June was illegal, he said, and she knew it was illegal. That's what he set out to prove, and that's the basis on which he wanted Sabinus to condemn her, not on any other basis. Issuing that edictum is the only thing he said amounted to a criminal offence, nothing else. If he didn't prove that beyond reasonable doubt, then she should be absolved. That's what he said, and that's what I said, and that's what Sabinus indicated he accepted. So that's what he argued for, and that's what I argued against. That's what he produced evidence to support, and that's what I produced evidence to refute. Like good lawyers, we did not waste the court's time with anything that was not directly relevant to that central question: was the second edictum of 6 June illegal, and did Major believe it was illegal? That's what the whole trial was about, from start to finish. But the presiding magistrate obviously wasn't happy with the way Metellus was doing his job, because after all the evidence had been produced and all the arguments made, he decided to mount a whole different prosecution of his own. He talks about 'a last argument of the actor, according which the violation, by Hortensia, of the laws of Nova Roma would result first of the fact that her moderation decisions have been vetoed, and second that she would have refused to obey these vetos'. He 'considers' it, and he decides that 'it has been demonstrated, from the pieces of evidence brought by both parties, that, on this only point, former praetor Hortensia Maior "used (her) magisterial powers to act against the lawful rights of a person", here G. Equitius Cato, by re-issuing twice on June 6, and without legal base a measure of moderation which should have been considered by her as having ended on June 1.' Let's be clear what's happening here. This is not 'a last argument of the actor'. Metellus *never* argued that Major had committed any crime whatsoever by means of refusing to obey vetoes. He made it absolutely clear throughout the trial that the only relevance of the vetoes was as evidence that she must have known she was doing something illegal. According to his case, her refusal to obey vetoes was evidence of a crime, but it was not a crime itself. The argument that 'the violation, by Hortensia, of the laws of Nova Roma would result... of the fact... that she would have refused to obey these vetoes' was *invented by the presiding magistrate of the this trial* and was never even hinted at in this court until after both the prosecutor and the advocate for the defence had closed their cases.

And there's a second point. At the risk of being tedious, let me remind you once again that Metellus consistently throughout the trial said that there was only one criminal edictum and it was the second edictum of 6 June. Only one. I specifically asked him about this (message 323 in the court archive) and he confirmed it (message 328). So all our arguments on both sides were concerned with whether that one edictum was criminal or not. But what does the presiding magistrate say? 'Hortensia Maior "used (her) magisterial powers to act against the lawful rights of a person"... by re-issuing twice on June 6... a measure of moderation...' *By re-issuing twice*. What he's saying here is that the crime was issuing *both* the edicta of 6 June. That is another thing that Metellus *never* said. This is not Albucius agreeing with Metellus' argument; this is Albucius making up a whole new argument of his own. And look, here's a third example of the same thing: 'its cause cannot be find but in the will that Hortensia had at this time that G. Equitius Cato be sanctioned, whatever the legality of such sanctions'. *Whatever the legality of such sanctions*. In other words, he is saying that Major is guilty because she did not care whether her actions were legal or not. But once again this has nothing to do with what Metellus said. He said that she was guilty because she knew, she *actually knew*, that she was doing something illegal. Once again, I specifically asked him (message 323 again) to clarify this point: did he say that she could be found guilty on the basis that she didn't care whether her actions were illegal or not, or did he say she could only be guilty if she actually knew they were illegal; again, he confirmed that his argument was based solely on the allegation that she actually knew they were illegal (message 328). So once again all our arguments and evidence on both sides were concerned with that point. But then Albucius says she is guilty because she decided to sanction Cato 'whatever the legality of the sanctions'. Because she acted without caring whether she was acting illegally or not. The prosecutor of the case - the person whose very job it is to prove the accused guilty - said that this would not be enough to make her guilty. But the presiding magistrate, whose job is to be impartial, overruled the prosecutor and put forward his own argument that she was guilty even if she didn't think she was acting illegally.

Folks, there is so much wrong with this I don't even know where to start, but let's stick with the point I've just alluded to. The presiding magistrate in a trial should not be putting forward prosecution arguments at any stage. He is not the prosecutor. There's already somebody doing that job, and, as it happens in this case, doing it well. It is not the presiding magistrate's job. In fact if the presiding magistrate is doing that then not only is he doing something that isn't his job, he's doing the exact opposite of his job. He's supposed to be independent, impartial, sitting above the arguments and just making sure the trial runs smoothly. That's how it was in Roman times, and that's how it's clearly meant to be under the leges Saliciae even if you read them in complete isolation from Roman law, which they specifically tell you not to do. If the presiding magistrate doesn't occupy that role and only that role, the whole system makes absolutely no sense. It's like having a tennis match in which the umpire suddenly climbs down from his chair, picks up a racket, and goes and joins one of the players. Not only have you then got two players unfairly competing against one, you've also got *no umpire*. And in fact it's worse than that, because Albucius didn't just become a second prosecutor here. He became a super-prosecutor. Because he's started out as the boss of the whole show. He gave Sabinus his instructions. He talked him through the schedule of the trial, not to mention anything else he may have said to him in private e-mails that we don't know about. He is a magistrate with the highest imperium you can get in peace-time, and this court was his court that he created and that he was running. That's a huge amount of power and influence. And then he deployed it on behalf of one party against the other. This is not just some random guy turning up at court and having a go at prosecuting after the first prosecutor has finished: this is Sabinus' boss, who is also the highest magistrate in the state, telling Sabinus what the right answer is. If you think that's fair, I know some delightful military dictatorships where you'd absolutely love being put on trial.

But let's forget for a minute that the presiding magistrate should not have been doing this at all. *When* did he do it? He did it after both parties had closed their cases and there could be no more argument or evidence from either side. We had spent the whole trial completely focused on proving or disproving the case as Metellus had argued it. For every argument that Metellus put forward I had an opportunity to respond to it. For every piece of evidence he produced I had an opportunity to criticize it. And for every argument and piece of evidence I deployed Metellus had an opportunity to deal with it (except for Sabinus' improper rejection of his cross-examination, which I've already mentioned). And *then* Albucius reaches into his top hat and pulls out a whole new prosecution case, and I had absolutely no chance whatsoever to say anything about it. I couldn't point out its logical flaws, I couldn't say anything about how it misapplied and misinterpreted the law, I couldn't produce any evidence to rebut its factual allegations. It was pretty much the equivalent of putting Major on trial a second time, with a whole new prosecution case, and not letting her say a single word in her own defence. Have another look at that 'call for a sententia'. See how it carefully examines and rejects my arguments against the case it's putting forward? No, you don't, because there were no arguments against that case, because I wasn't allowed to make any, because I didn't have even the tiniest hint that that case was going to be happening until it was too late.

And let's not even get into whether Albucius' arguments were right or not. We really haven't got time for that. Let's not even ask ourselves whether it's at all dodgy that Albucius decided Major was guilty because she disobeyed vetoes, and whose vetoes were they exactly? Oh, that's right, some of them were Albucius' vetoes! So basically he decided that she was guilty because she did something he told her not to do. That doesn't in any way undermine the impartiality and independence of this verdict, does it? Oh, right, it does. Well, if only somebody had pointed out right at the beginning of these proceedings that maybe it was a bad idea to have the trial being presided over by a magistrate who had issued vetoes that were likely to be used as evidence in the case! Oh, right, somebody did. But never mind that. Let's move on to what happened next.

What happened next was Sabinus giving a verdict after hearing two different prosecution cases: one by Metellus, one by Albucius. He condemned Major, so he must have agreed with one of them but which one? What has Major actually been found guilty of doing? This is important, people, because part of the purpose of our criminal law is to deter people from doing things we don't want them to do. And in order to be deterred, people need to know what it actually is that they're being deterred from doing. Albucius said Major was guilty because she disobeyed (his) vetoes, but Metellus never suggested that. So was she condemned because she disobeyed vetoes or not? Does this verdict mean that disobeying a veto is a criminal offence or doesn't it? We have no idea. Metellus said that the crime was issuing the second edictum of 6 June, but Albucius said that it was only a crime if you look at the two edicta together. These are not only two different bases of guilt, they're actually contradictory. Think about it: if both the edicta together make one crime, then each edictum separately is not a crime (otherwise they'd be two crimes, not one). So Metellus is saying that the second edictum on its own was a crime, and Albucius is saying that the second edictum on its own was *not* a crime. Which version did Sabinus find her guilty of? We don't know. What is a future magistrate supposed to do with this information? What exactly is a future magistrate supposed to be deterred from doing? We have no idea! This verdict has no deterrent effect whatsoever because we simply don't know what Major has actually been condemned for. By setting himself up as a second prosecutor Albucius has not only achieved the unfair and wrongful conviction of M. Hortensia, he has also single-handedly defeated a major part of the social usefulness of the trial that he was in charge of. And not only has this verdict, because of the way it came about, been unfair to Major and unhelpful to the entire community, it's also done no favours at all for the prosecutor. I want to say for the record that in my opinion Metellus conducted himself unimpeachably throughout the trial. He was cooperative and polite at every stage. When Sabinus set an unrealistic schedule that would have been completely physically impossible for me to meet, Metellus could have sat back and watched me miss the deadlines and lose the case as a result, but he didn't: he supported my objections and asked for a more realistic schedule. He clarified his specific allegations and explicitly identified his interpretation of the law, even when the presiding magistrate had consistently failed to require him to do so, because he knew that justice demanded it. Metellus wanted a fair fight, and he wanted to win it fairly. He didn't get one. He has been cheated by this unfair judicial process just as M. Hortensia has, and just as you have.

Wait, I feel like I've forgotten something. Oh yes, the call for a sententia. Remember a little while ago I went over what the lex Salicia says has to be in the call for a sententia, and then I mentioned the fact that Albucius issued one that contained a whole load of stuff that shouldn't have been in it, and that's what I've been talking about for the last six paragraphs? Well, before we finish, let's just check whether the call for a sententia at least did manage to include all the things the lex required. It shouldn't be hard, because, remember, there were only two of them. It had to 'call for a sententia' and it had to 'remind... the judices that, in case of doubt, they must *not* condemn the reus'. Wait, what was that second one? Hmm, I don't remember seeing anything like that in Albucius' call for a sententia. Let's just check... nope, nothing. Nothing at all. So, folks, if you've stuck with me this far and you've been saying to yourself, 'This is all very well, all this stuff about the spirit of the laws and the principles of fairness and so on, but I don't see that anything happened in this trial that was an indisputable breach of the words of the leges'... Well, there you have it. If it isn't enough for you that this entire judicial process from start to finish was riddled with unfairness of umpteen different kinds, I invite you to put this in your pipe and smoke it: one thing that the lex Salicia judiciaria *explicitly* and *unambiguously* requires the presiding magistrate to do, which is to remind the judex of the *crucial and fundamental rule* that an accused person is innocent until provedn guilty beyond reasonable doubt, and the presiding magistrate in this case *did not do it*. That alone would be enough, in any court in any civilized country in the world, to nullify the result of this trial.


People, this trial was an utter disgrace. The sheer length of this message shows how totally riddled with unfair procedural decisions it was. Its outcome cannot be regarded as reliable. In fact the problems I've described here cast doubt not only on the result of this trial but on the existence of justice in Nova Roma. You should be ashamed of this trial. You should be ashamed that this happened in your community. And you should put it right. I see that people are threatening more trials against other people. I tell you now that if those trials are like this one there is absolutely no point having them. You will not get justice. I don't care what other arguments or fights or elections or vetoes or legislation or whatever is going on in Nova Roma right now, I'm here to tell you that the top priority of every magistrate with the power to do so should be to convene the comitia to hear an appeal against this verdict, and to make sure that the appeal is conducted properly, under an independent presiding magistrate, according to basic principles of fair procedure and informed by a sound knowledge of ancient Roman judicial practice. And the top priority of every citizen should be to demand that such an appeal be heard. Cicero said that a republic is a group of people united by a common good and an agreement about justice. Without justice you have no republic, and until there is an appeal in this case then there is no justice in this community.

Thank you for listening.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79067 From: Cato Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: On the trial of M. Hortensia
Cato Apollonio Cordo omnibusque in foro SPD

First, although he may not have liked it, it was good to read something directly from Apollonius Cordus, rather than through a filter.

Having met him in person, it is fairly easy to picture him sort of squinting and nodding his head and explaining his take on this whole thing. And yes, in person he talks exactly the same way :)

Second, his involvement in the trial in no impedes what I still consider our friendship. He was asked by a citizen to perform a function on behalf of that citizen, and he did so, by all accounts admirably and well.

Last, what I have read here is basically the argument in favor of a lex to overturn Maior's sentence; something which it is in the power of a comitia to do. I would suggest that, if she believes it that important, Maior should get to work on convincing a magistrate with the authority to do so to introduce such a lex.

Valete,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79068 From: Michael K Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: Tribunician report for July session of the Senate
Salvete omnes,

Ditto to C.Popillus Laenas form my situation as well. I too withdrew my votes for the same reason.

Valete bene,

QSP

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius" <gaiuspopillius@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> This report is in error. I withdrew my votes on all three items because of the uncertainty of the legality of the session.
>
> Valete,
>
> C. Popillius Laenas
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "mcorvvs" <mcorvvs@> wrote:
> >
> > Tribunus Plebis Marcus Octavius Corvus Quiritibus S.P.D.
> >
> > Citizens of Nova Roma,
> >
> > Here is the Tribunician report of the Senate session of July 19 – July 25,
> > 2763
> >
> > The votes have been tallied and the results are as follows:
> >
> > Formal debate ended at Friday 00.01 hrs CET Roma, 23 July 2010 2763.
> > Voting began at Friday 23 July 2010 at 00.02 hrs CET Roma 2763
> > and was concluded at Sunday 25 July 2010 at 00.02 CET Roma 2763.
> >
> > The following XX Senators cast their votes on time. They are referred to by
> > their initials which are listed in alphabetical order (with the exception of the
> > presiding magistrate who will be listed first):
> >
> > *KFBQ: K. Fabius Buteo Quintilianus, Presiding Magistrate
> > C0-presiding magistrates:
> > Max. Valeria Messallina, Tribuna Plebis
> > C. Curius Saturninus, Tribunus Plebis
> > C. Aquillius Rota, Tribunus Plebis
> > M. Octavius Corvus, Tribunus Plebis
> >
> >
> > *ATS: A. Tullia Scholastica
> > *CCS: C. Curius Saturninus
> > *CEC: C. Equitius Cato
> > *CnEM: Cn. Equitius Marinus
> > *CPL: C. Popillius Laenas
> > *EmCF: Em. Curia Finnica
> > *FrAC: Fr. Apulus Caesar
> > *KFBM: K. Fabius Buteo Modianus
> > *MAM: M. Arminius Maior
> > *MCC: M. Curiatius Complutensis
> > *MHM: M. Hortensia Maior
> > *MIP: M. Iulius Perusianus
> > *MIS: M. Iulius Severus
> > *MLA: M. Lucretius Agricola
> > *MMPH: M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus
> > *QSP: Q. Suetonius Paulinus
> > *TiGP.: Ti. Galerius Paulinus
> > *TIS: T. Iulius Sabinus
> >
> > The following Senator (I) voted by proxy:
> > *ArnMA: Arn. Moravia Aurelia (Proxy vote delivered by K. Fabius Buteo
> > Quintilianus)
> >
> >
> > The following Senatores (X) did not vote:
> >
> > *CFD: C. Flavius Diocletianus
> > *CMM: C. Marius Merullus
> > *CnIC: Cn. Iulius Caesar
> > *CVP: C. Vipsanius Agrippa
> > *DIPI: Dec. Iunius Palladius Invictus
> > *FlGA: Fl. Galerius Aurelianus
> > *LCSF: L. Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > *MMA M. Minucius Audens
> > *PMA: P. Memmius Albucius
> > *QFM: Q. Fabius Maximus
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________
> >
> > "VTI ROGAS" indicates a vote in favor of an item,
> > "ANTIQVO" is a vote against,
> > "ABSTINEO" is an open abstention.
> > __________________________________________
> >
> > All decisions were made with a majority of Uti Rogas votes.
> >
> > Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis.
> >
> > Correction of the Constitution IV, a:
> > "Elections of the ordinarii shall take place no later than December
> > 15th, and newly-elected officials shall assume their offices on
> > January 1st."
> >
> > Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis.
> >
> > "Elections of the ordinarii shall take place no later than December
> > 1st, and newly-elected officials shall assume their offices on January
> > 1st, except Plebeian Aediles and Tribunes of the Plebs who shall assume
> > their offices on December 10th."
> >
> > UTI ROGAS: 17
> > ANTIQUO: 0
> > ABSTINEO: 3
> >
> > The result of the voting is Item I PASSED
> >
> > KFBM: On both items I vote UTI ROGAS.
> >
> > KFBQ: Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. UTI
> > ROGAS
> >
> > MHM: Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. UTI
> > ROGAS
> > CnEM: I Uti Rogas
> > MLA: Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. UTI
> > ROGAS. Although I am a patrician myself I am happy to lend my vote to this fine
> > lex which moves us closer to historical practice and I think may provide a help
> > in smoothing our annual transition of magistrates.
> > MMPH: Item I. For the proposed Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis.
> > ADSENTIOR UTI ROGAS
> > CPL: I Uti Rogas
> > TiGP: Uti Rogas on all three agenda items.
> > *Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
> > ATS: Item I: Uti rogas. This is long overdue, and should bring us closer to
> > ancient Roman practice.
> > MIS: Item I. For the proposed Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis.
> > ADSENTIOR VTI ROGAS
> > CCS: Item I: Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis Uti
> > rogas.
> >
> > TIS: Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. Uti
> > rogas.
> >
> > *Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
> > ArnMA: Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. UTI
> > ROGAS
> >
> > MCC: Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. UTI
> > ROGAS
> >
> > QSP: > I Uti Rogas>
> >
> > MIP: Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. VTI
> > ROGAS
> >
> > EmCF: Item I: Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis Uti
> > rogas.
> >
> > FrAC: Item I1. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. VTI
> > ROGAS
> >
> > CEC: Item I - VTI ROGAS
> >
> > *Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
> > MAM: Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. Uti
> > Rogas.
> >
> > _________________________________________
> >
> >
> > Item II. The IT-project
> >
> > The Senate appoints Kristoffer From (formerly known within Nova Roma
> > as Senator Titus Octavius Pius Ahenobarbus) as the programmer who will
> > develop and set up a new IT-system, consisting of an automated
> > election-system and a new citizen database with tools for our
> > magistrates and citizens.
> >
> > The Senate affirms that the cost for the IT-project executed by
> > KristofferFrom will be paid for with 10 000 USD.
> >
> > The Senate requests the project to be completed in time for the fall
> > elections in November 2010, but understands that if the new system is
> > not ready in time, Kristoffer From will arrange the elections and run-
> > off elections in the current system. Kristoffer From will, in addition
> > to the fall elections and run-off elections, set up no more than one
> > session in each Comitia each month during his work on the project.
> >
> > The Senate orders the CIO to choose the most advantageous pay model
> > for Nova Roma, either the mentioned Swedish NPO or another solution.
> > Guarantees by the CIO will be given to assure that any chosen solution
> > is irreproachable. A registered accountant who will check on the
> > correctness may need separate pay though.
> >
> > Kristoffer From will leave reports on the progress of the project to
> > the CIO who will share these reports with the Senate. There will be
> > five such short reports, these reports will be sent to the CIO at the
> > following occasions and when the following milestones are completed
> > (but probably not working together yet):
> >
> > 1. Database (the backbone of the new site)
> > 2. Access control (a basic website with an authentication method)
> > 3. Server-side daemon (to enable automation of time-sensitive tasks)
> > 4. Election system (automated running of elections)
> > 5. Administrative tools (so magistrates can access the system)
> > 6. Documentation (so Kristoffer is not the only one who knows how it
> > works)
> >
> > These milestones may be reported in any order and they only have a
> > partial connection to the payment of Kristoffer From. The reports will
> > serve the purpose of keeping the Senate informed of progress of the
> > IT-project. Still, the work is too complicated to connect the
> > milestones too strictly to payments.
> >
> > Kristoffer From may report on the milestones in any order, as they are
> > reached. The last payment will however not be made until the CIO has
> > stated that the work is finished.
> >
> > The Senate orders the CFO or someone appointed/approved by the Senate
> > instead of a CFO to immediately set aside the full 10 000 USD and upon
> > the start of the project pay 2 500 USD for salary, social costs and
> > taxes for Kristoffer From. The next payment of 2500 will be paid as
> > soon as Kristoffer From reports on one milestone and a third payment
> > of 2 500 USD will be paid as soon as Kristoffer From reports on a
> > second milestone. When the project is completed to the satisfaction of
> > the CIO, the remaining 2 500 USD will be paid according to the chosen
> > pay-model.
> >
> > Kristoffer From will do after-work checks and surveillance checks for
> > at least three months to see to it that the new IT-system really
> > works in actual use. Nova Roma may also be asked to assist in
> > performing tests of the system during this period.
> >
> >
> > Uti rogas: 16
> > Antiquo: 0
> > Abstineo: 4
> > The result of the voting is Item II PASSED
> >
> >
> > KFBM: On both items I vote UTI ROGAS.
> >
> > KFBQ: Item II. The IT-project UTI ROGAS
> >
> > MHM: Item II. The IT-project UTI ROGAS
> > CnEM: I Uti Rogas
> > MLA: Item II. The IT-project UTI ROGAS. I have had a closer view than most as
> > this project has gone ahead. Saturninus has done a top-rate job and I am happy
> > to lend my vote in support of this long-overdue measure.
> >
> > MMPH: Item II. For the IT-project ADSENTIOR UTI ROGAS CPL: I Uti Rogas
> > CPL: I Uti Rogas
> > TiGP: Uti Rogas on all three agenda items.
> > *Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
> > ATS: Item II: Uti rogas. It seems that we have reached the point where it is
> > better to start anew than attempt to repair the existing programs or whatever
> > despite the expense. Appliances and automobiles have similar problems; we
> > should not expect our IT infrastructure to last forever, no matter how well
> > maintained.
> > MIS: Item II. For the IT-project MIS: ADSENTIOR VTI ROGAS
> > CCS: Item II: The IT-project Uti rogas. This is the most important improvement
> > into our infrastructure ever since first Album Civium and Cista.
> >
> > TIS: Item II. The IT-project TIS: Uti rogas.
> >
> > *Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
> > ArnMA: Item II. The IT-project UTI ROGAS
> >
> > MCC: Item II. IT-project UTI ROGAS
> >
> > QSP: > I Uti Rogas>
> >
> > MIP: Item Item II. The IT-project VTI ROGAS
> >
> > EmCF: Item II: The IT-project Uti rogas. This is an very drastic improvement
> > that can be no longer delayed. The existing system is completely out of date,
> > poorly documented and there is only one individual who is actually able to use
> > it somehow. Wihout a new IT-system there will be no further elections.
> >
> > FrAC: Item Item II. The IT-project ABSTINEO As professionist of this commercial
> > area, I would like to read the concrete project before to give my approval. The
> > budget in fact is very high and it would be analyzed by a pool of experts.
> >
> > CEC: Item I - VTI ROGAS
> >
> > *Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
> > MAM: Item II. The IT-project Uti Rogas.
> >
> > _____________________________________________
> >
> > Item III. Dictatorship
> >
> > The Senate of Nova Roma, having convened in an emergency session,
> > considers that:
> >
> > Whereas the current situation in Nova Roma threatens the very
> > existence of Nova Roma both as a nation and as a membership
> > organization, and,
> >
> > Whereas these crises in our organization and corporation, our
> > finances, and our technical problems result from many causes that must
> > be addressed so as to avoid Nova Roma from harm, as well as to ensure
> > the orderly and enjoyable continuation of Nova Roma, and,
> >
> > Whereas any solutions to these present crises should and must be done
> > in accordance with the governing bodies of law,
> >
> > Do we, the Senate of Nova Roma, by the vote of a majority, hereby
> > appoint Gnaeus Equitius Marinus to the office of Dictator, and invest
> > in him complete auctoritas and imperium for a period of no more than
> > six months, trusting in him to resolve the present crises and take
> > whatever steps he deems necessary to prevent future harm to the Res
> > Publica Populi Novae Romae.
> >
> > The Senate conveys resolution of the following tasks, although not
> > limited to these alone, to Cn. Equitius Marinus:
> >
> > To oversee the rewriting of corporate bylaws for Nova Roma, Inc
> >
> > To have the Constitution and subordinate laws reviewed for the purpose
> > of amending or replacing them as are necessary to protect the
> > respublica from harm
> >
> > To resolve the IT issues that threaten our website and on which the
> > functions of the respublica rely
> >
> > To restructure voting procedures to make them robust against loss of
> > technical programs or equipment.
> >
> > To simplify the magisterial structure to provide fewer magistrates
> > with better defined roles.
> >
> >
> > In the name of the Senate and the People of the Nova Roma, and in the
> > sight of the Gods and Goddesses of the People of Nova Roma, under the
> > provision of the Constitution IV.B.1, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus,
> > Censorius is hereby appointed Dictator and Magister Populi of Nova Roma.
> >
> > Uti rogas: 16
> > Antiquo: 1
> > Abstineo: 3
> > The result of the voting is Item III PASSED
> >
> >
> > KFBM: Rather, on all three items I vote UTI ROGAS.
> >
> > KFBQ: Item III. Dictatorship UTI ROGAS
> >
> > MHM: Item Item III. Dictatorship UTI ROGAS
> > CnEM: III Uti Rogas, and may the Dii Immortales help me
> > MLA: Item III. Dictatorship UTI ROGAS. Senator and Censorius Marinus is one of
> > the very few whom I could support in this position. In deciding my vote I also
> > consider the manifest desire of the people to put ourselves back on the right
> > track.
> > MMPH: Item III. ADSENTIOR UTI ROGAS
> > CPL: I Uti Rogas
> > TiGP: Now as to the proposed dictatorship. When the Roman appointed a dictator
> > armies were at their gates.
> > When the Romans appointed their first dictator there was an effort under way to
> > return the kings to power.
> > A week or so ago I stated on one of the lists that I would not support the
> > appointment of a dictator even if I was proposed as the dictator. My opposition
> > to a dictator has NOTHING to do with Senator Marinus or any other person who
> > might have been nominated. It is based on my belief that while we have problems
> > we do not have a crisis.
> > I do not see anything that has changed and I vote NO on the proposed
> > appointment of a dictator.
> > *Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
> > ATS: Item III. Ut pollicita sum, tertia discessio sequitur. Iterum meá
> > quidem sententiá, interdum aliqua facienda, etsi injucunda. Malim Novam
> > Romam rixis omnino carere; malim omnia sine pervicaciis et obicibus esse si quid
> > alicui displiceat. Infelicissimé, haec ita non sunt, et mutanda.
> > Dictaturae mihi displicent, sed ut videtur, nunc uná nobis opus est.
> > Dolendum'st; sed quae cum ita sint, optio alia abest. Vir quem proposuisti
> > bonus est, et eum honestum arbitror. Assentior, etsi animo sollicito nec
> > laetitiam capiens, ut rogas.
> > MIS: Item III. Dictatorship MIS: ADSENTIOR VTI ROGAS
> > CCS: Item III: Dictatorship Uti rogas. It is time to save the republic. It is
> > time to put politics aside and do real things. If accomplishing it means to vote
> > for dictatorship, I'll do it. As a Roman citizen, magistrate and senator,
> > Marinus has my support.
> >
> > TIS: Item III. Uti rogas.
> >
> > *Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
> > ArnMA: Item III.Dictatorship. UTI ROGAS
> >
> > MCC: Item III. Dictatorship. UTI ROGAS
> >
> > QSP: > III Antiquo
> >
> > MIP: Item III. Dictatorship VTI ROGAS
> >
> > EmCF: Item III: Dictatorship Uti rogas.
> >
> > FrAC: Item III. Dictatorship VTI ROGAS I don't like the dictatorship, my own
> > personal political opinion would drive me to more democratical and popular kinds
> > of governments. But the situation of NR is bad, I'm looking the organization
> > from a more far point of view and I find again a disorganized group divided by
> > superficial discussions and political games. I hope the good Marinus would
> > concentrate his efforts to find a new identity to NR, a real mission in a real
> > world for the members, concrete and "unvirtual" opportunities and projects. The
> > way taken by NR during the last year is the worst road, we need a change of
> > direction. Marinus, please, do it!
> >
> > CEC: ITEM III - Although I do not go to the extreme that Gn. Iulius Caesar does,
> > I
> > cannot help but agree that each "crisis" we are called upon to deal now with was
> > brought up in one form or another and those who did so were mocked or ignored
> > because of political convenience. I think this because I was, of course, one of
> > them; exempli gratia, I have advocated for the by-laws change for *years* now,
> > offering my proposals repeatedly and simply being ignored. Our compliance with
> > Maine law was brought up repeatedly (again, by myself among others) - only to be
> > scoffed at and ignored because those in power disliked the messengers rather
> > than paying attention to the message. So my personal feelings urge me to refuse
> > to allow those in power to stand back and make someone else responsible for
> > cleaning up the messes they have made.
> >
> > Yet, the Romans themselves did not look with horror at the idea of a dictator,
> > probably because they had no experience with our common modern understanding of
> > dictatorial government, with Hitler, Stalin, Tito, Ceaucescu, Peron, Pol Pot,
> > Castro, etc., standing in our collective modern consciousness as the epitome of
> > governments marked by arbitrary cruelty and inhumanity. The Romans appointed
> > dictators not only to carry out wars but often to simply get a particular job
> > done: to fill vacancies in the Senate, to preside over public games, to create
> > holidays...even just to drive a nail into the door of the temple of Iuppiter
> > O.M. in times of plague. They did their job, and unless they were a Sulla or a
> > Marius or a Caesar, when it was finished they simply stepped back down into
> > regular public life.
> >
> > So while I do believe that this series of "crises" has been manufactured by
> > willful ignorance or blatant disregard on the part of some of those who have
> > held the reins of power over the past two years, I cannot justify standing in
> > the way of what is apparently the only solution that will hopefully make - force
> > - those who hold power to shut up and actually listen for a change. The end
> > does *not* justify the means, but simple dislike for the means does not make
> > them evil, nor does it justify accepting a crippling status quo, either.
> >
> > VTI ROGAS
> >
> > *Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
> > MAM: Item III. Dictatorship Uti Rogas.
> >
> > _____________________________________________
> > The following senators announced their desire to withdraw their votes
> > after voting:
> >
> > C. Equitius Cato
> > Ti. Galerius Paulinus
> > T. Iulius Sabinus
> >
> > Normal rules of Parliamentary Procedure do not allow for members of a
> > voting quorum to withdraw once the quorum has been made. The legality
> > of these withdrawls is in question.
> >
> >
> > Tribuni:
> >
> > M. Octavius Corvus (reporting)
> > Maxima Valeria Messallina
> > C. Curius Saturnius
> > C. Aquilius Rota
> >
> > I thank my colleague Maxima Valeria Messallina and Senator Marcus Lucretius
> > Agricola for advise and help while preparing this, such a difficult report.
> >
> > Valete bene in pace Deorum,
> >
> > M. Octavius Corvus
> > Tribunus Plebis
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79069 From: Jean-François Arnoud Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re : Your "instructions" to the Lictores curiati
Avete,

About the Quorum, the NR Senate Rules state:

"Senate rules on defining a Quorum

I. This Senatus Consultum on Defining a Quorum is hereby enacted to define what
constitutes a quorum of the Senate, to ensure that participation in Senatorial
decisions is open to its members in a reasonable manner and fashion. In the
absence of such a quorum, no official Senate business may take place.


II. When official Senate business is being conducted via electronic mail (as
outlined in paragraph IV.A. of the Senatus Consultum De Ratione Senatus), at
least two-thirds of the members of the Senate must have access to the email list
in question in order to constitute a quorum.


The two-thirds requirement shall be calculated so as to retain fractions; i.e.,
if 13.33 Senators are required to establish a forum, 13 Senators shall not be
adequate to do so, but 14 shall be.

No call for debate or vote may be issued which deliberately excludes some
members of the Senate and not others in order to obscure Senate business being
conducted. Any magistrate so doing shall be subject to penalties that shall be
deemed appropriate by the Senate.


Any Senator subscribed to the officially-designated Senate email list is assumed
to have access to said email unless he specifically informs the Senate as a body
or the presiding magistrate that such is not the case.


Should a Senator declare himself incommunicado via email, that Senator shall not
be counted towards the constitution of a quorum. Such a declaration may be made
directly or through an intermediary.


Should a Senator declare himself incommunicado during an official debate, and
issue a proxy for his vote at that time, he shall still be counted towards the
constitution of a quorum.


The Consuls shall have the authority to designate the official Senate email
list, and must make any changes to such designation known to all members of the
Senate in a timely fashion.


(...)

See more here:
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Rules_on_defining_a_Senate_Quorum_%28Nova_Roma%29

 
Optime valete. 

C. Petronius Dexter
Tribunus Plebis Arcoiali scribebat
a. d. III Nonas Sextiles P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79070 From: C. Curius Saturninus Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Witnessing appointment
Salvete,

I, C. Curius Saturninus, as a Lictor of Nova Roma, hereby witness the appointment of Cn. Equitius Marinus as Magister Populi et Dictator of Nova Roma. As a member of the Comitia Curiata I wish him good fortune in his office and in his work on behalf of the Religio Romana.

Ego, C. Curius Saturninus, lictor curiata Novae Romae testificor Cn. Equitium Marinum Magisterum Populi et Dictatorem Novae Romae creari. Lictor Comitiorum Curiatorum ei opto ut pro religione Romana felicissime officio munereque suo fungatur.

Valete,

C. Curius Saturninus
(Mikko Sillanpää)

Rector Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
Senator - Legatus Pro Praetore Provinciae Thules

e-mail: c.curius@...
www.academiathules.org
thule.novaroma.org



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79071 From: Cato Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: Witnessing appointment
Cato omnibus in foro SPD

I, Gaius Equitius Cato, hereby witness the sun rising on the morning of October 19, AD 2043. I hope everyone has a wonderful day!

Would you all please stop? You cannot possibly bear "witness" to something that HAS NOT HAPPENED. Even the senator you three have named has REFUSED to acknowledge any supposed "appointment" due to the illegitimacy of the actions in the Senate.

You're like little children playing with your toys refusing to grasp reality; in this case, however, you are breaking your oaths to obey the Constitution of the Respublica.

Valete,

Cato



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "C. Curius Saturninus" <c.curius@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete,
>
> I, C. Curius Saturninus, as a Lictor of Nova Roma, hereby witness the appointment of Cn. Equitius Marinus as Magister Populi et Dictator of Nova Roma. As a member of the Comitia Curiata I wish him good fortune in his office and in his work on behalf of the Religio Romana.
>
> Ego, C. Curius Saturninus, lictor curiata Novae Romae testificor Cn. Equitium Marinum Magisterum Populi et Dictatorem Novae Romae creari. Lictor Comitiorum Curiatorum ei opto ut pro religione Romana felicissime officio munereque suo fungatur.
>
> Valete,
>
> C. Curius Saturninus
> (Mikko Sillanpää)
>
> Rector Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
> Senator - Legatus Pro Praetore Provinciae Thules
>
> e-mail: c.curius@...
> www.academiathules.org
> thule.novaroma.org
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79072 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: Tribunician report for July session of the Senate.
C. Petronius Dexter tribunus Plebis quiritibus omnibus s.p.d.,

Once again it seems that the situation needs a tribune of the Plebs who at least reads the laws, even written in English [private joke], and knows the mathematics.

To count widhdrawn votes into votes "Abstineo" is a gross error. "Abstineo" is one of the three possible votes:
1- uti rogas (Yes)
2- abstineo (Abstain)
3- antiquo. (No)

A withdrawn vote means the voter did not want to be a part of an illegal Senate session, because the session was vetoed by the other consul. He wants his vote not counted as said by himself.

Co-convening the senate with 4 tribunes did not empeach that this session is vetoed by the consul and, therefore, illegal. Calling the senate to order, even by 4 tribunes, is not a tribunian veto nor an intercessio, it is only a calling to convene the Senate to order. Moreover, the tribunes have the right to convene the Senate but on an agenda which concerns Plebeians affairs no to make a dictator, with an Item that they did not write and suddenly coming up from the toga of the consul Q. Fabius.

The first and main error in this tendancious report is that no word is said about the consul P. Memmius veto.
Some write history from their windows or screens. A second error is on the Quorum, with a funny remarks from parliamentary rules, while Nova Roma has his proper rules about the Senate Quorum.
Apparently these individuals did not know the NR Laws and Rules...

Citizens, see more here:
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Rules_on_defining_a_Senate_Quorum_%28Nova_Roma%29

Optime valete.

C. Petronius Dexter
Tribunus Plebis Arcoiali scribebat
a. d. III Nonas Sextiles P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Michael K" <mjk@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete omnes,
>
> Ditto to C.Popillus Laenas form my situation as well. I too withdrew my votes for the same reason.
>
> Valete bene,
>
> QSP
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius" <gaiuspopillius@> wrote:
> >
> > Salvete Omnes,
> >
> > This report is in error. I withdrew my votes on all three items because of the uncertainty of the legality of the session.
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > C. Popillius Laenas
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "mcorvvs" <mcorvvs@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Tribunus Plebis Marcus Octavius Corvus Quiritibus S.P.D.
> > >
> > > Citizens of Nova Roma,
> > >
> > > Here is the Tribunician report of the Senate session of July 19 - July 25,
> > > 2763
> > >
> > > The votes have been tallied and the results are as follows:
> > >
> > > Formal debate ended at Friday 00.01 hrs CET Roma, 23 July 2010 2763.
> > > Voting began at Friday 23 July 2010 at 00.02 hrs CET Roma 2763
> > > and was concluded at Sunday 25 July 2010 at 00.02 CET Roma 2763.
> > >
> > > The following XX Senators cast their votes on time. They are referred to by
> > > their initials which are listed in alphabetical order (with the exception of the
> > > presiding magistrate who will be listed first):
> > >
> > > *KFBQ: K. Fabius Buteo Quintilianus, Presiding Magistrate
> > > C0-presiding magistrates:
> > > Max. Valeria Messallina, Tribuna Plebis
> > > C. Curius Saturninus, Tribunus Plebis
> > > C. Aquillius Rota, Tribunus Plebis
> > > M. Octavius Corvus, Tribunus Plebis
> > >
> > >
> > > *ATS: A. Tullia Scholastica
> > > *CCS: C. Curius Saturninus
> > > *CEC: C. Equitius Cato
> > > *CnEM: Cn. Equitius Marinus
> > > *CPL: C. Popillius Laenas
> > > *EmCF: Em. Curia Finnica
> > > *FrAC: Fr. Apulus Caesar
> > > *KFBM: K. Fabius Buteo Modianus
> > > *MAM: M. Arminius Maior
> > > *MCC: M. Curiatius Complutensis
> > > *MHM: M. Hortensia Maior
> > > *MIP: M. Iulius Perusianus
> > > *MIS: M. Iulius Severus
> > > *MLA: M. Lucretius Agricola
> > > *MMPH: M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus
> > > *QSP: Q. Suetonius Paulinus
> > > *TiGP.: Ti. Galerius Paulinus
> > > *TIS: T. Iulius Sabinus
> > >
> > > The following Senator (I) voted by proxy:
> > > *ArnMA: Arn. Moravia Aurelia (Proxy vote delivered by K. Fabius Buteo
> > > Quintilianus)
> > >
> > >
> > > The following Senatores (X) did not vote:
> > >
> > > *CFD: C. Flavius Diocletianus
> > > *CMM: C. Marius Merullus
> > > *CnIC: Cn. Iulius Caesar
> > > *CVP: C. Vipsanius Agrippa
> > > *DIPI: Dec. Iunius Palladius Invictus
> > > *FlGA: Fl. Galerius Aurelianus
> > > *LCSF: L. Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > > *MMA M. Minucius Audens
> > > *PMA: P. Memmius Albucius
> > > *QFM: Q. Fabius Maximus
> > >
> > >
> > > _________________________________________
> > >
> > > "VTI ROGAS" indicates a vote in favor of an item,
> > > "ANTIQVO" is a vote against,
> > > "ABSTINEO" is an open abstention.
> > > __________________________________________
> > >
> > > All decisions were made with a majority of Uti Rogas votes.
> > >
> > > Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis.
> > >
> > > Correction of the Constitution IV, a:
> > > "Elections of the ordinarii shall take place no later than December
> > > 15th, and newly-elected officials shall assume their offices on
> > > January 1st."
> > >
> > > Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis.
> > >
> > > "Elections of the ordinarii shall take place no later than December
> > > 1st, and newly-elected officials shall assume their offices on January
> > > 1st, except Plebeian Aediles and Tribunes of the Plebs who shall assume
> > > their offices on December 10th."
> > >
> > > UTI ROGAS: 17
> > > ANTIQUO: 0
> > > ABSTINEO: 3
> > >
> > > The result of the voting is Item I PASSED
> > >
> > > KFBM: On both items I vote UTI ROGAS.
> > >
> > > KFBQ: Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. UTI
> > > ROGAS
> > >
> > > MHM: Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. UTI
> > > ROGAS
> > > CnEM: I Uti Rogas
> > > MLA: Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. UTI
> > > ROGAS. Although I am a patrician myself I am happy to lend my vote to this fine
> > > lex which moves us closer to historical practice and I think may provide a help
> > > in smoothing our annual transition of magistrates.
> > > MMPH: Item I. For the proposed Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis.
> > > ADSENTIOR UTI ROGAS
> > > CPL: I Uti Rogas
> > > TiGP: Uti Rogas on all three agenda items.
> > > *Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
> > > ATS: Item I: Uti rogas. This is long overdue, and should bring us closer to
> > > ancient Roman practice.
> > > MIS: Item I. For the proposed Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis.
> > > ADSENTIOR VTI ROGAS
> > > CCS: Item I: Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis Uti
> > > rogas.
> > >
> > > TIS: Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. Uti
> > > rogas.
> > >
> > > *Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
> > > ArnMA: Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. UTI
> > > ROGAS
> > >
> > > MCC: Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. UTI
> > > ROGAS
> > >
> > > QSP: > I Uti Rogas>
> > >
> > > MIP: Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. VTI
> > > ROGAS
> > >
> > > EmCF: Item I: Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis Uti
> > > rogas.
> > >
> > > FrAC: Item I1. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. VTI
> > > ROGAS
> > >
> > > CEC: Item I - VTI ROGAS
> > >
> > > *Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
> > > MAM: Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. Uti
> > > Rogas.
> > >
> > > _________________________________________
> > >
> > >
> > > Item II. The IT-project
> > >
> > > The Senate appoints Kristoffer From (formerly known within Nova Roma
> > > as Senator Titus Octavius Pius Ahenobarbus) as the programmer who will
> > > develop and set up a new IT-system, consisting of an automated
> > > election-system and a new citizen database with tools for our
> > > magistrates and citizens.
> > >
> > > The Senate affirms that the cost for the IT-project executed by
> > > KristofferFrom will be paid for with 10 000 USD.
> > >
> > > The Senate requests the project to be completed in time for the fall
> > > elections in November 2010, but understands that if the new system is
> > > not ready in time, Kristoffer From will arrange the elections and run-
> > > off elections in the current system. Kristoffer From will, in addition
> > > to the fall elections and run-off elections, set up no more than one
> > > session in each Comitia each month during his work on the project.
> > >
> > > The Senate orders the CIO to choose the most advantageous pay model
> > > for Nova Roma, either the mentioned Swedish NPO or another solution.
> > > Guarantees by the CIO will be given to assure that any chosen solution
> > > is irreproachable. A registered accountant who will check on the
> > > correctness may need separate pay though.
> > >
> > > Kristoffer From will leave reports on the progress of the project to
> > > the CIO who will share these reports with the Senate. There will be
> > > five such short reports, these reports will be sent to the CIO at the
> > > following occasions and when the following milestones are completed
> > > (but probably not working together yet):
> > >
> > > 1. Database (the backbone of the new site)
> > > 2. Access control (a basic website with an authentication method)
> > > 3. Server-side daemon (to enable automation of time-sensitive tasks)
> > > 4. Election system (automated running of elections)
> > > 5. Administrative tools (so magistrates can access the system)
> > > 6. Documentation (so Kristoffer is not the only one who knows how it
> > > works)
> > >
> > > These milestones may be reported in any order and they only have a
> > > partial connection to the payment of Kristoffer From. The reports will
> > > serve the purpose of keeping the Senate informed of progress of the
> > > IT-project. Still, the work is too complicated to connect the
> > > milestones too strictly to payments.
> > >
> > > Kristoffer From may report on the milestones in any order, as they are
> > > reached. The last payment will however not be made until the CIO has
> > > stated that the work is finished.
> > >
> > > The Senate orders the CFO or someone appointed/approved by the Senate
> > > instead of a CFO to immediately set aside the full 10 000 USD and upon
> > > the start of the project pay 2 500 USD for salary, social costs and
> > > taxes for Kristoffer From. The next payment of 2500 will be paid as
> > > soon as Kristoffer From reports on one milestone and a third payment
> > > of 2 500 USD will be paid as soon as Kristoffer From reports on a
> > > second milestone. When the project is completed to the satisfaction of
> > > the CIO, the remaining 2 500 USD will be paid according to the chosen
> > > pay-model.
> > >
> > > Kristoffer From will do after-work checks and surveillance checks for
> > > at least three months to see to it that the new IT-system really
> > > works in actual use. Nova Roma may also be asked to assist in
> > > performing tests of the system during this period.
> > >
> > >
> > > Uti rogas: 16
> > > Antiquo: 0
> > > Abstineo: 4
> > > The result of the voting is Item II PASSED
> > >
> > >
> > > KFBM: On both items I vote UTI ROGAS.
> > >
> > > KFBQ: Item II. The IT-project UTI ROGAS
> > >
> > > MHM: Item II. The IT-project UTI ROGAS
> > > CnEM: I Uti Rogas
> > > MLA: Item II. The IT-project UTI ROGAS. I have had a closer view than most as
> > > this project has gone ahead. Saturninus has done a top-rate job and I am happy
> > > to lend my vote in support of this long-overdue measure.
> > >
> > > MMPH: Item II. For the IT-project ADSENTIOR UTI ROGAS CPL: I Uti Rogas
> > > CPL: I Uti Rogas
> > > TiGP: Uti Rogas on all three agenda items.
> > > *Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
> > > ATS: Item II: Uti rogas. It seems that we have reached the point where it is
> > > better to start anew than attempt to repair the existing programs or whatever
> > > despite the expense. Appliances and automobiles have similar problems; we
> > > should not expect our IT infrastructure to last forever, no matter how well
> > > maintained.
> > > MIS: Item II. For the IT-project MIS: ADSENTIOR VTI ROGAS
> > > CCS: Item II: The IT-project Uti rogas. This is the most important improvement
> > > into our infrastructure ever since first Album Civium and Cista.
> > >
> > > TIS: Item II. The IT-project TIS: Uti rogas.
> > >
> > > *Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
> > > ArnMA: Item II. The IT-project UTI ROGAS
> > >
> > > MCC: Item II. IT-project UTI ROGAS
> > >
> > > QSP: > I Uti Rogas>
> > >
> > > MIP: Item Item II. The IT-project VTI ROGAS
> > >
> > > EmCF: Item II: The IT-project Uti rogas. This is an very drastic improvement
> > > that can be no longer delayed. The existing system is completely out of date,
> > > poorly documented and there is only one individual who is actually able to use
> > > it somehow. Wihout a new IT-system there will be no further elections.
> > >
> > > FrAC: Item Item II. The IT-project ABSTINEO As professionist of this commercial
> > > area, I would like to read the concrete project before to give my approval. The
> > > budget in fact is very high and it would be analyzed by a pool of experts.
> > >
> > > CEC: Item I - VTI ROGAS
> > >
> > > *Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
> > > MAM: Item II. The IT-project Uti Rogas.
> > >
> > > _____________________________________________
> > >
> > > Item III. Dictatorship
> > >
> > > The Senate of Nova Roma, having convened in an emergency session,
> > > considers that:
> > >
> > > Whereas the current situation in Nova Roma threatens the very
> > > existence of Nova Roma both as a nation and as a membership
> > > organization, and,
> > >
> > > Whereas these crises in our organization and corporation, our
> > > finances, and our technical problems result from many causes that must
> > > be addressed so as to avoid Nova Roma from harm, as well as to ensure
> > > the orderly and enjoyable continuation of Nova Roma, and,
> > >
> > > Whereas any solutions to these present crises should and must be done
> > > in accordance with the governing bodies of law,
> > >
> > > Do we, the Senate of Nova Roma, by the vote of a majority, hereby
> > > appoint Gnaeus Equitius Marinus to the office of Dictator, and invest
> > > in him complete auctoritas and imperium for a period of no more than
> > > six months, trusting in him to resolve the present crises and take
> > > whatever steps he deems necessary to prevent future harm to the Res
> > > Publica Populi Novae Romae.
> > >
> > > The Senate conveys resolution of the following tasks, although not
> > > limited to these alone, to Cn. Equitius Marinus:
> > >
> > > To oversee the rewriting of corporate bylaws for Nova Roma, Inc
> > >
> > > To have the Constitution and subordinate laws reviewed for the purpose
> > > of amending or replacing them as are necessary to protect the
> > > respublica from harm
> > >
> > > To resolve the IT issues that threaten our website and on which the
> > > functions of the respublica rely
> > >
> > > To restructure voting procedures to make them robust against loss of
> > > technical programs or equipment.
> > >
> > > To simplify the magisterial structure to provide fewer magistrates
> > > with better defined roles.
> > >
> > >
> > > In the name of the Senate and the People of the Nova Roma, and in the
> > > sight of the Gods and Goddesses of the People of Nova Roma, under the
> > > provision of the Constitution IV.B.1, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus,
> > > Censorius is hereby appointed Dictator and Magister Populi of Nova Roma.
> > >
> > > Uti rogas: 16
> > > Antiquo: 1
> > > Abstineo: 3
> > > The result of the voting is Item III PASSED
> > >
> > >
> > > KFBM: Rather, on all three items I vote UTI ROGAS.
> > >
> > > KFBQ: Item III. Dictatorship UTI ROGAS
> > >
> > > MHM: Item Item III. Dictatorship UTI ROGAS
> > > CnEM: III Uti Rogas, and may the Dii Immortales help me
> > > MLA: Item III. Dictatorship UTI ROGAS. Senator and Censorius Marinus is one of
> > > the very few whom I could support in this position. In deciding my vote I also
> > > consider the manifest desire of the people to put ourselves back on the right
> > > track.
> > > MMPH: Item III. ADSENTIOR UTI ROGAS
> > > CPL: I Uti Rogas
> > > TiGP: Now as to the proposed dictatorship. When the Roman appointed a dictator
> > > armies were at their gates.
> > > When the Romans appointed their first dictator there was an effort under way to
> > > return the kings to power.
> > > A week or so ago I stated on one of the lists that I would not support the
> > > appointment of a dictator even if I was proposed as the dictator. My opposition
> > > to a dictator has NOTHING to do with Senator Marinus or any other person who
> > > might have been nominated. It is based on my belief that while we have problems
> > > we do not have a crisis.
> > > I do not see anything that has changed and I vote NO on the proposed
> > > appointment of a dictator.
> > > *Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
> > > ATS: Item III. Ut pollicita sum, tertia discessio sequitur. Iterum meá
> > > quidem sententiá, interdum aliqua facienda, etsi injucunda. Malim Novam
> > > Romam rixis omnino carere; malim omnia sine pervicaciis et obicibus esse si quid
> > > alicui displiceat. Infelicissimé, haec ita non sunt, et mutanda.
> > > Dictaturae mihi displicent, sed ut videtur, nunc uná nobis opus est.
> > > Dolendum'st; sed quae cum ita sint, optio alia abest. Vir quem proposuisti
> > > bonus est, et eum honestum arbitror. Assentior, etsi animo sollicito nec
> > > laetitiam capiens, ut rogas.
> > > MIS: Item III. Dictatorship MIS: ADSENTIOR VTI ROGAS
> > > CCS: Item III: Dictatorship Uti rogas. It is time to save the republic. It is
> > > time to put politics aside and do real things. If accomplishing it means to vote
> > > for dictatorship, I'll do it. As a Roman citizen, magistrate and senator,
> > > Marinus has my support.
> > >
> > > TIS: Item III. Uti rogas.
> > >
> > > *Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
> > > ArnMA: Item III.Dictatorship. UTI ROGAS
> > >
> > > MCC: Item III. Dictatorship. UTI ROGAS
> > >
> > > QSP: > III Antiquo
> > >
> > > MIP: Item III. Dictatorship VTI ROGAS
> > >
> > > EmCF: Item III: Dictatorship Uti rogas.
> > >
> > > FrAC: Item III. Dictatorship VTI ROGAS I don't like the dictatorship, my own
> > > personal political opinion would drive me to more democratical and popular kinds
> > > of governments. But the situation of NR is bad, I'm looking the organization
> > > from a more far point of view and I find again a disorganized group divided by
> > > superficial discussions and political games. I hope the good Marinus would
> > > concentrate his efforts to find a new identity to NR, a real mission in a real
> > > world for the members, concrete and "unvirtual" opportunities and projects. The
> > > way taken by NR during the last year is the worst road, we need a change of
> > > direction. Marinus, please, do it!
> > >
> > > CEC: ITEM III - Although I do not go to the extreme that Gn. Iulius Caesar does,
> > > I
> > > cannot help but agree that each "crisis" we are called upon to deal now with was
> > > brought up in one form or another and those who did so were mocked or ignored
> > > because of political convenience. I think this because I was, of course, one of
> > > them; exempli gratia, I have advocated for the by-laws change for *years* now,
> > > offering my proposals repeatedly and simply being ignored. Our compliance with
> > > Maine law was brought up repeatedly (again, by myself among others) - only to be
> > > scoffed at and ignored because those in power disliked the messengers rather
> > > than paying attention to the message. So my personal feelings urge me to refuse
> > > to allow those in power to stand back and make someone else responsible for
> > > cleaning up the messes they have made.
> > >
> > > Yet, the Romans themselves did not look with horror at the idea of a dictator,
> > > probably because they had no experience with our common modern understanding of
> > > dictatorial government, with Hitler, Stalin, Tito, Ceaucescu, Peron, Pol Pot,
> > > Castro, etc., standing in our collective modern consciousness as the epitome of
> > > governments marked by arbitrary cruelty and inhumanity. The Romans appointed
> > > dictators not only to carry out wars but often to simply get a particular job
> > > done: to fill vacancies in the Senate, to preside over public games, to create
> > > holidays...even just to drive a nail into the door of the temple of Iuppiter
> > > O.M. in times of plague. They did their job, and unless they were a Sulla or a
> > > Marius or a Caesar, when it was finished they simply stepped back down into
> > > regular public life.
> > >
> > > So while I do believe that this series of "crises" has been manufactured by
> > > willful ignorance or blatant disregard on the part of some of those who have
> > > held the reins of power over the past two years, I cannot justify standing in
> > > the way of what is apparently the only solution that will hopefully make - force
> > > - those who hold power to shut up and actually listen for a change. The end
> > > does *not* justify the means, but simple dislike for the means does not make
> > > them evil, nor does it justify accepting a crippling status quo, either.
> > >
> > > VTI ROGAS
> > >
> > > *Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
> > > MAM: Item III. Dictatorship Uti Rogas.
> > >
> > > _____________________________________________
> > > The following senators announced their desire to withdraw their votes
> > > after voting:
> > >
> > > C. Equitius Cato
> > > Ti. Galerius Paulinus
> > > T. Iulius Sabinus
> > >
> > > Normal rules of Parliamentary Procedure do not allow for members of a
> > > voting quorum to withdraw once the quorum has been made. The legality
> > > of these withdrawls is in question.
> > >
> > >
> > > Tribuni:
> > >
> > > M. Octavius Corvus (reporting)
> > > Maxima Valeria Messallina
> > > C. Curius Saturnius
> > > C. Aquilius Rota
> > >
> > > I thank my colleague Maxima Valeria Messallina and Senator Marcus Lucretius
> > > Agricola for advise and help while preparing this, such a difficult report.
> > >
> > > Valete bene in pace Deorum,
> > >
> > > M. Octavius Corvus
> > > Tribunus Plebis
> > >
> >
>

--
C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
a.d. VIII Kal. Mart. P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79073 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: Witnessing appointment
Well Cato, what do you expect, its easier for Curius to witness something
imaginary than to do something productive like fix the Academia Thules
server. Heaven forbid he has to do something more than make NR look like a
role playing game!

Vale,

Sulla

On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 8:55 AM, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:

>
>
> Cato omnibus in foro SPD
>
> I, Gaius Equitius Cato, hereby witness the sun rising on the morning of
> October 19, AD 2043. I hope everyone has a wonderful day!
>
> Would you all please stop? You cannot possibly bear "witness" to something
> that HAS NOT HAPPENED. Even the senator you three have named has REFUSED to
> acknowledge any supposed "appointment" due to the illegitimacy of the
> actions in the Senate.
>
> You're like little children playing with your toys refusing to grasp
> reality; in this case, however, you are breaking your oaths to obey the
> Constitution of the Respublica.
>
> Valete,
>
> Cato
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>, "C. Curius
> Saturninus" <c.curius@...> wrote:
> >
> > Salvete,
> >
> > I, C. Curius Saturninus, as a Lictor of Nova Roma, hereby witness the
> appointment of Cn. Equitius Marinus as Magister Populi et Dictator of Nova
> Roma. As a member of the Comitia Curiata I wish him good fortune in his
> office and in his work on behalf of the Religio Romana.
> >
> > Ego, C. Curius Saturninus, lictor curiata Novae Romae testificor Cn.
> Equitium Marinum Magisterum Populi et Dictatorem Novae Romae creari. Lictor
> Comitiorum Curiatorum ei opto ut pro religione Romana felicissime officio
> munereque suo fungatur.
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > C. Curius Saturninus
> > (Mikko Sillanp��)
> >
> > Rector Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
> > Senator - Legatus Pro Praetore Provinciae Thules
> >
> > e-mail: c.curius@...
>
> > www.academiathules.org
> > thule.novaroma.org
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79075 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Soldier speech acts in Greek and Roman literature and society
*Soldier speech acts in Greek and Roman literature and society*
by *Popov, Nadejda Vladimir* <javascript:void(0);>, Ph.D., Princeton
University, 2008 , 218 pages; AAT 3323191
Abstract (Summary)

This dissertation surveys the phenomenon of speech acts of common soldiers
in Greek and Roman literature and society from Archaic Greece to Late
Antiquity. Examples of soldier speech are found in all periods and genres of
Greek and Roman literature. Historical evidence from Classical Athens and
all periods of Roman history suggests that soldier speech was not only a
literary device, but a historical category of speech as well. Thus the main
questions I set out to answer are the following: (1) What was the function
of soldier speech in ancient literature and society? Also, what was the
relationship of literary and historical soldier speech in Greece and Rome?
(2) Why do some soldier speeches in literature succeed in their aim, while
others fail? A related question is: why are some soldier speeches presented
as problematic in the literary tradition?

Based on the evidence of Greek and Roman literature, law, epigraphy, and
speech-act theory, I argue that the strong presence of soldier speech in
literary and historical evidence suggests that contrary to *communis opinio
* , soldiers in antiquity did not live silently on the fringes of society.
Rather, both in literature and in reality, they were vocal and active
participants of both everyday life and crucial historical events.

In chapter I, I consider the problem of revolutionary soldier speech--the
one category of soldier speech that is uniformly presented in a negative
light in ancient literature. The subsequent chapters propose solutions to
the problem of revolutionary soldier speech. These solutions are the
different ways of integrating soldier speech into the military and social
framework of the society, whether in literature or in reality.

Chapter II is a case study of soldier speech in Classical Athens. I argue
that soldier speech was a historical category of speech in Classical Athens,
and that the foundation for this category of speech was the Ephebic Oath.
The main forum for soldier speech in Classical Athens was not a military
setting, however, but a purely civic on--the courtroom. When appearing as
accusers or defendants in court, Athenians preferred to speak as soldiers,
rather than as civilians, referring to and sometimes even quoting the
Ephebic Oath. This specific type of soldier speech--speech inspired by the
Ephebic oath--was, therefore, an integral part of Athenian everyday life,
and an invaluable tactic for success in the lawcourts.

Chapter III is a case study of soldier speech in the Roman Republic. I
consider both the historical types of soldier speech (i.e., the
military *sacramentum
* , the *acclamatio imperatoris * , and the * carmina triumphalia * ), and
the historiographic portrayal of soldier speech in the period. I argue that
*Cato*, Sallust, and Livy all use soldier speeches as *exempla * in their
works. Their *exempla * , however, are not only meant to teach Roman
soldiers how to speak or how not to speak, but are primarily intended to
serve as models of how to write soldier speech for subsequent authors.

Finally, chapter IV considers the effectiveness of soldier-commander
dialogues in neutralizing dangerous soldier speech in literature. The
attribution of this approach in historiography to major historical
commanders of the ancient world--most notably, Alexander the Great and
Caesar--suggests that ancient authors considered this literary technique to
be a plausible solution for actual commanders, who were facing seditious or
revolutionary soldier speech.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79076 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: A corpus-based approach to infinitival complements in early Latin
*A corpus-based approach to infinitival complements in early Latin*
by *Ross, Sarah H.* <javascript:void(0);>, Ph.D., Louisiana State University
and Agricultural & Mechanical College, 2005 , 476 pages; AAT 3167151
Abstract (Summary)

A theory-based perspective is essential to a full understanding of
infinitive clauses in early Latin. Some previous work focusing on syntactic
theory has failed to include appropriate Latin data or has not explained it
adequately. More recent theoretical perspectives have taken the approach of
Functional Grammar, dismissing much of the variation in word order and
embedded clause types as driven merely by pragmatics. This study examines
the syntax of early Latin from a Government and Binding viewpoint, with the
aim of fully marrying the theory with the data to account for the
infinitival variations.

A corpus was created from the complete extant works of Accius, Caecilius, *
Cato*, Ennius, Livius Andronicus, Lucilius, Naevius, Pacuvius, and the
anonymous * Senatus Consultum de Bacchanalibus * as well as five selected
plays from Plautus and three from Terence (comprising a total of over
200,000 words with 3,828 infinitives).

One of the main findings is that certain structures such as passivization
are a strategy to avoid the syntactic ambiguity that would otherwise result
from the confluence of multiple accusative-case assignments. The results
show that infinitival complements with more than one overt accusative noun
phrase are relatively rare (occurring in only 14% of contexts), while
structures that avoid ambiguity, such as finite clause variants and
passivization, are more frequent (occurring in over one fourth of possible
contexts). The study also provides a baseline for examining
grammaticalization and other language changes in the history of Latin.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79077 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Ethnographic characterization in Lucan's "Bellum Civile"
*Ethnographic characterization in Lucan's "Bellum Civile"*
by *Hodges, Gregory W. Q.* <javascript:void(0);>, Ph.D., The Ohio State
University, 2004 , 246 pages; AAT 3160223
Abstract (Summary)

Lucan's *Bellum Civile * is a commentary upon and criticism of the Neronian
principate and the deteriorated Roman character of the first century. The
poet's success would be marked initially by imperial censorship, followed by
his avowed involvement in the Pisonian conspiracy, the inevitable result of
which was Lucan's death sentence in 65 A.D. In his epic Lucan laments the
state of Roman citizenship that has precipitated the fall of the Republic.
The true Roman, the hero that would sacrifice all for the state, is absent
from the poem. Instead the promotion of the individual, effected by military
and political successes among foreign peoples at and beyond the edges of
empire, has dismantled simultaneously the ethnic construct of the Roman. To
underscore this loss of native Roman identity Lucan employs various
non-Roman ethnic models when developing the characters of Caesar, Pompey,
and *Cato*. The stereotypical traits of the European Gaul, the Asiatic
despot, and the North African nomad, as generated by such sources as
Polybius and *Cato* the Elder, structure the character of Lucan's
protagonists. They have divested themselves of their Roman aspects and
assumed rather those of the peoples among whom they produced their public
strength. No longer can this be seen as a legitimate civil war fought
between Romans for Rome. Instead these leaders have become as foreigners,
each posing a distinct threat to the state. These three men, representative
of the poet's tripartite world view, enact the promised destruction that
will leave the empty city of Rome to be rushed and occupied by the foreign
enemies that had so long been held at bay.

Lucan's ethnographic characterizations of his heroes are illustrative of his
disaffection with a Rome that has been abandoned by its protectors. Even the
poet, upon recounting Caesar's desecration of the temple to Saturn, is
unable to return in thought or narrative to the city. Instead he, his
audience, his poem, and his characters are condemned to wander far from the
security and strength that was once the bounty of Republican Rome.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79078 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Representations of pharmacy in Roman literature from Cato to Ovid
*Representations of pharmacy in Roman literature from Cato to Ovid*
by *Hillman, David Charles* <javascript:void(0);>, Ph.D., The University of
Wisconsin - Madison, 2004 , 198 pages; AAT 3143140
Abstract (Summary)

This dissertation is an examination of drug references found in the works of
Republican and early Imperial Roman authors and includes non-medical prose
and poetry falling chronologically between the lives of *Cato* and Ovid. It
questions past assumptions concerning the role of drugs in rural and urban
environments and attempts to establish a new model for the role of the Roman
physician as a 'medical artisan.' It examines the unique epidemiological
landscape of the crowded urban environment of Rome and tries to relate this
information to the use of drugs and the art of pharmacy. It also
investigates the use of drugs as poisons in non-medical literary sources,
and attempts to show that the Roman world was well aware of the use of drugs
to commit murder for the sake of political and social advancement. A
significant number of references to poisons and poisoners are buried within
the Latin works falling between *Cato* and Ovid, and this textual evidence
reveals much about Roman cultural attitudes concerning the use of poisons
and the particular methods for the preparation and administration of
poisonous drugs. This work also looks at the use of cosmetics as they are
found throughout Latin literature of this period, and it tries to
characterize some of the basic elements of the use of Roman makeup and
perfume. Drugs play a prominent role in the works of prose authors and poets
from the Republic and early Empire; these non-medical sources merit serious
discussion in any work concerned with Roman medicine and pharmacy.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79079 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Accounting and recounting: Cato the Censor and the politics of cultu
*Accounting and recounting: Cato the Censor and the politics of culture*
by *Sciarrino, Enrica* <javascript:void(0);>, Ph.D., University of
California, Berkeley, 2002 , 148 pages; AAT 3063543
Abstract (Summary)

Rome's territorial expansion in the late third and early second century BCE
brought a massive influx of professional writers and performers into the
city. Among these professionals we find the founding figures of Roman
literature: Livius Andronicus, Plautus, Naevius, and Ennius. Their presence
in the * urbs * produced a double phenomenon. On the one hand, the governing
class employed these professionals for the production of written texts to be
performed by professional actors during civic festivals. On the other hand,
these professionals impinged on intra-elite exchange and competition, when
the elite became interested in them for articulating personal status. This
dissertation explores how *Cato* the Censor, an outstanding member of the
Roman ruling elite, evokes the exclusive aristocratic tradition that
preceded the birth of Roman literature in order to take a position within
the second century cultural landscape. By focusing on *Cato* the Censor's
appeals to the pre-literary tradition, I first show that *Cato* counters the
intrusions of professionals in intra-elite relations by attempting to define
an exclusive ludic site. Second, I argue that as *Cato* claims that access
to this site depends on participation in ruling activities in the military
and political spheres, he also supports the elite's expropriation of the
cultural patrimony of colonized and professional subordinates. Finally, I
demonstrate that *Cato* undermines the agency of professionals by fixing in
writing his performances in a variety of communicative situations. With this
project I draw into question the adoption of strict literary and
genre-categories and expand on purely philological approaches in order to
develop new ways of reading Latin prose writing in the second century BCE.
In this respect, I emphasize differences among compositions in relation to
the social identity of the performers, the communicative situation that each
composition implies, and whether writing is used for composing a text to be
performed or for preserving performance. Within this view, I use the term
LITERATURE, as opposed to literature, in order to describe a number of
activities pivoting around the production and circulation of exclusive
knowledge and the written preservation of elite performances by and for the
ruling elite.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79080 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Remembering the Roman Republic, A.D. 68--117
*Remembering the Roman Republic, A.D. 68--117*
by *Gallia, Andrew Benjamin* <javascript:void(0);>, Ph.D., University of
Pennsylvania, 2003 , 243 pages; AAT 3109177
Abstract (Summary)

This dissertation explores various aspects of 'Republicanism' in the elite
culture and political discourse of the Flavian-Trajanic period. Put another
way, it is an examination of the ways in which Romans thought and talked
about the period of the Republic during the Principate. Beginning with the
rebellion of Iulius Vindex against Nero in the spring of AD 68, the
individual chapters present a series of five moments when Rome's
relationship to this past era of freedom ( *libertas * ) became relevant to
elites living under the monarchical system that had supplanted it.

This discussion seeks to wind together two modes of analysis. This first is
an examination of the ways in which particular artifacts--political slogans
about *libertas * , the monumental space of the Capitol, a handbook of *exempla
* by Frontinus, Republican coins reissued by Trajan, and the cultural
practice of oratory as discussed by Tacitus--functioned in the formulation
of ideas about what the past meant in the present. Each kind of artifact
imposed its own limitations on how the Republic was understood by posterity.

The second mode of analysis centers more directly on the political and
ideological uses to which the past was put. In general, emperors and
senators sought to elide the differences between their own era and that of
their Republican ancestors. Traditional gestures by ruler and subject
created a notional continuity between present conditions and the moral
inheritance of the past. It was sometimes difficult to maintain this sense
of continuity, but these challenges only reinforced its importance.

Whereas 'Republicanism' under the Principate is typically associated with
political protest, appeals to the authority of the past were ultimately more
useful to conformists who embraced the principate than to the conspicuous
minority of '*Cato*--worshippers' who rejected the current political order.
To some members of the Roman elite, however, the contradictions inherent in
this situation were apparent. Republicanism could be read as a cover for
some of the more unsavory aspects of the principate. The next step,
therefore, was to abandon the Republic as a meaningful source of values and
to start talking about the Principate in its own terms.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79081 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Worshiping Diana: The cult of a Roman goddess in Republican Italy
*Worshiping Diana: The cult of a Roman goddess in Republican Italy*
by *Holland, Lora Louise* <javascript:void(0);>, Ph.D., The University of
North Carolina at Chapel Hill, 2002 , 211 pages; AAT 3061688
Abstract (Summary)

The body of epigraphical evidence for the worshipers of Diana during the
Republican era in Italy is here collected and analyzed for the first time,
along with a map of the cult sites and an appended list of the twenty-eight
inscriptions. Chapter 1 begins with an overview of the nature of Diana and
sites associated with her worship in Republican Italy, then focuses on two
early pieces of evidence for her worshipers: a coin issued by Aristodemus
Malacus of Cumae that depicts the archaic head of Diana of Lake Nemi and an
inscription seen by *Cato* ( *Orig * . 2, fr. 21 Jordan = Keil * GL * ,
Priscian 4.21) that probably dates to the late 6 th cent. B. C. E. The
inscriptions *per se * begin at the end of the 4 th cent. B. C. E., as do
the bulk of the votive offerings at her sanctuaries. Chapter 2 examines the
inscriptions from Lake Nemi, and Chapter 3 analyzes those from the rest of
Italy. A holistic approach adds relevant evidence from literary, numismatic,
artistic, and archaeological sources in order to produce as complete a
picture as possible.

Several important conclusions result from this study. First, contrary to
long-held opinion, no slave gave a named dedication to Diana in Italy during
the Republic. Secondly, a 19 th century notion that relegates Diana to the
role of *Frauengöttin * is invalid: the epigraphical evidence does not
support this conclusion. Men gave most of the dedications, and no female
dedication can be securely connected with "women's concerns." Also contrary
to the bulk of the scholarship, the literary evidence for worshipers of
Diana does not portray her as interested primarily in women, except for the
few passages that are traditionally adduced to the exclusion of the larger
picture. Diana's role as a goddess of childbirth derived in part from her
identification with Artemis and in part from her syncretization with Juno
Lucina, and was only one aspect of her role in the lives of women and men.
This association did not overtake in importance Diana's other roles as a
Great Goddess figure until the rise to power of Augustus.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79082 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Cicero and the legacy of Cato Uticensis
*Cicero and the legacy of Cato Uticensis*
by *Stem, Stephen Rex* <javascript:void(0);>, Ph.D., University of Michigan,
1999 , 324 pages; AAT 9929961
Abstract (Summary)

This dissertation explores the relationship between Cicero and his
contemporary *Cato* Uticensis, and in particular Cicero's contribution to
the development of *Cato's* legacy as the greatest moral figure of his era.
There are three primary goals. The first is to explicate, through an
examination of the evidence in its individual contexts, Cicero's range of
attitudes and opinions toward the figure of *Cato* both before and after his
death. The second goal is to demonstrate how Cicero in his published works
manipulated public opinion about *Cato* for his own rhetorical purposes.
Such a demonstration also serves as a case study illuminating the importance
of the interplay between public image and public opinion in the crucial
final decades of the Roman Republic. The final goal is to consider the
origins of the legacy of *Cato* Uticensis and how and why that legacy
emerged as it did.

The methodology of this dissertation is to consider closely in somewhat
extended contexts the significant characterizations of *Cato* throughout
Cicero's corpus. Following an Introduction, each chapter examines an aspect
of Cicero's attitude toward *Cato*: *Cato* the overzealous Stoic politician
with consequent ethical limitations (Chapter 2), *Cato* the man of principle
in an age of corruption (Chapter 3), *Cato* the idealized figure of the
Stoic sage (Chapter 4), and *Cato* the man of potential (Chapter 5).
*Cato*himself becomes secondary to the
*Cato* of Cicero's characterizations, almost all of which portray *Cato* as
a man of virtue and principle, a pattern which outlines the origins of *
Cato's* legacy within his own lifetime.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79083 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Cultivating Romans: Republican agricultural writing and the inventio
*Cultivating Romans: Republican agricultural writing and the invention of
the agricola*
by *Reay, Brendon Thomas* <javascript:void(0);>, Ph.D., Stanford University,
1998 , 173 pages; AAT 9908837
Abstract (Summary)

This dissertation explores Roman textual interventions into a persistent
conflict during the Republican period, a conflict between an elite, absentee
agricultural practice that exploited slave and hired labor on (sometimes
multiple) estates to cultivate grapes (wine) and olives (oil), on the one
hand; and an existing ideology that idealized and valorized a tradition of
farmer-statesmen hard at work on their small plots, cultivating the Roman
empire as they cultivated their crops. The farmer-statesman was both the
source and symbol of the ideal, now lost, res publica. An introduction
examines a number of representations of agriculture and its practitioners in
Roman literature to expose the centrality of such representations to Roman
conceptions of themselves, and surveys the rise and extension of
"plantation" agriculture in Italy during the second and first centuries
B.C.E. Three chapters explore the discursive work of individual texts
through close readings of their principal linguistic features. Chapter 1
focuses on *Cato's* De Agricultura and the imperative. Chapter 2 treats
Varro's Res Rusticae and the role of etymology in the dialogic form. Chapter
3 treats Virgil's Georgics and the trope, especially in its intertextual
manifestation, allusion. There are two appendices that collect the data upon
which the discussions of chapters 1 and 2 are based.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79084 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: The elder Cato: A philological reassessment
*The elder Cato: A philological reassessment*
by *Churchill, James Bradford* <javascript:void(0);>, Ph.D., University of
Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, 1996 , 263 pages; AAT 9712234
Abstract (Summary)

M. Porcius *Cato* (cos. 195 sc B.C.E.) has been a focal point of study of
the literature and politics of Rome of the second century sc B.C.E. He has
sometimes been seen as a study in contradictions--an enemy of Greek
influence who partook of Greek influences, an enemy of luxury who indulged
himself later in life, an enemy of money-lenders who was himself a
money-lender, a man with rational convictions interwoven with irrational
prejudices--and as a short-sighted, narrow, self-interested politician. By
expanding upon recent historical studies of *Cato* and his role in the
development of the Roman cultural self-image, a better integration of all
the evidence will be proposed. Reflected in the preserved words and actions
of *Cato* is a creative, thoughtful, practical, and ideologically balanced
approach to rhetoric, politics, and social mores. He judged things Greek on
the basis of their compatibility with Roman standards, and is not attested
as having characterized anything as worthless merely because it was foreign.
He claimed to be no enemy of harmless indulgence, but indulgence which led
to corruption he fought to control. He advocated regulation of interest
rates, not the abolition of lending at interest, and himself engaged in
maritime loans, which were transactions of a different sort. His rational
positions were argued with emotional conviction, but betray no indication of
reactionary prejudice. His political acts are not obviously calculated
primarily in self-interest, but he recognized areas of individual conduct
which were detrimental to the stability and viability of the Roman state,
and attacked them in court as he did in the legislative arena. It is no
surprise that among later Romans he became an exemplar of virtue for his
consistent adherence to his stated principles.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79085 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: Witnessing appointment
C. Petronius M. Maiori s.p.d.,

> Ego, M. Hortensia Maior, lictrix curiata Novae Romae testificor Cn. Equitium Marinum Magisterum Populi et Dictatorem Novae Romae creari. Lictrix Comitiorum Curiatorum ei opto ut pro religione Romana felicissime officio munereque suae fungatur.

Your Latin version is not acceptable by Gods... you must say it again and correctly, please. Gods are respectable... even, when you perform an illegacy in their names.

Optime vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Tribunus Plebis Arcoiali scribebat
a. d. III Nonas Sextiles P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79086 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: The reinvention of Judean collective identity in a Hellenistic world
*The reinvention of Judean collective identity in a Hellenistic world
contending with Rome*
by *Osterloh, Kevin Lee* <javascript:void(0);>, Ph.D., Princeton University,
2007 , 397 pages; AAT 3273523
Abstract (Summary)

This dissertation, *The Reinvention of Judean Collective Identity in a
Hellenistic World Contending with Rome * , focuses on conceptions of group
identity constructed by elite Judeans from 161-104 BCE. The newfound
dominance of Rome at this time profoundly affected both inter-communal
cultural exchange and the reinterpretation of local communal tradition
throughout the Hellenistic World or *Oikoumenê. * Through a complex process
of "communal reinvention," Judean elites followed Roman precedent by
creating legitimate cultural space for themselves within the *
Oikoumenê *on their own terms.

Like the Romans before them, Judean elites negotiated their collective
identity through an exchange of ideas with Greeks, commonly referred to as a
process of Hellenization. However, this was more than a mere two-sided
exchange. My study emphasizes both a triangulated conversation between Jews,
Greeks and Romans, and an even more complex "shared elite discourse"
consisting of a multitude of communities throughout the *Oikoumenê. * In
their interactions with Greeks and Greekness, Judean elites were informed by
the approach of their Roman "friends and allies" to Greeks and Greek
culture, while they simultaneously "reinvented" the Judean community in
emulation of the elite-constructed image of Rome. I develop this thesis
largely by comparing the Jewish sources I and II Maccabees with the life and
writings of the Achaean-Greek historian Polybius and *Cato* the Elder, his
famous Roman contemporary.

Judean emulation of Rome is marked by the extreme loyalty of the individual
to the unified commonwealth and ancestral custom and law. Both elite groups
emphasized these communal qualities as part of the co-option and subversion
of Greekness. Judeans followed the Roman example of claiming the best of
traditional Greek virtues for themselves--and denying the same to certain,
but not all, contemporary Greeks--while transforming the meaning of virtue
from the full range of Greek *aretê * toward a more Romanized * virtus * :
"manly courage" and "martial valor." In sum, Judean elites reconciled their
reconceived notion of "the community" in a Hellenistic context with their
native Israelite heritage by creating a Judean community that claimed the
best virtues offered by the Hellenistic marketplace of ideas within the
practice of ancestral Judean custom.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79087 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: MEMOIRS AND THE PERCEPTION OF HISTORY IN THE ROMAN REPUBLIC
*MEMOIRS AND THE PERCEPTION OF HISTORY IN THE ROMAN REPUBLIC*
by *BATES, RICHARD LARRY* <javascript:void(0);>, Ph.D., University of
Pennsylvania, 1983 , 395 pages; AAT 8326273
Abstract (Summary)

This thesis is a study of the political, social, and economic factors that
led to the rise of autobiographical writing among the Romans of the 2nd and
1st centuries B.C. It also contains special studies of the remaining
fragments of the autobiographical works of M. Porcius *Cato*, M. Aemilius
Scaurus, P. Rutilius Rufus, Q. Lutatius Catulus, and L. Cornelius Sulla. For
each of the special studies an attempt has been made to analyze not only
those fragments assigned to these various works by H. Peter (in his
Historicorum Romanorum Reliquiae('2), Volume I, Stuttgart, 1967), but also
other passages from ancient sources that are arguably derived from these
autobiographical writings.

The analysis of each autobiographical work includes an assessment of the
reliability of our fragmentary evidence, an appraisal of the tendentiousness
to be found in it, and an attempt to gauge the cannons of style that were
employed by the author. The basic focus of each study, however, is concerned
with the self-portrait each autobiographer attemped to create and the affect
it has had upon the extant historical tradition.

The overall conclusion of this thesis is that well before the Confessions of
St. Augustine the Romans wrote autobiographical works with such a wealth of
personal and psychological detail that these deserve to be regarded as the
precursors of the modern genre of autobiographical writing.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79088 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Valerius Maximus and the idealized republic: A study in his represen
*Valerius Maximus and the idealized republic: A study in his representation
of Roman history*
by *Bloomer, William Martin Shepard* <javascript:void(0);>, Ph.D., Yale
University, 1987 , 224 pages; AAT 8810268
Abstract (Summary)

Scholarly interest in Valerius Maximus has been twofold, with a philological
majority enquiring into his sources and the occasional historian exhuming
some detail from this book of rhetorical examples. This dissertation pursues
neither course but builds from the more recent work of Carney and Maslakov
in examining Valerius' attitude to the history of the republic. The central
question is what this enthusiast of the new imperial regime made of
traditional Roman history.

The dissertation examines Valerius' depictions of republican figures and
events which might provide a precedent or an embarrassment to the Caesars.
After an introduction sketching the principles of composition and purposes
of Valerius' work, the first chapter addresses the first Roman
revolutionaries: L. Junius Brutus and Valerius Poplicola. Valerius works no
radical change in Rome's canon of traditional heroes, although the uses to
which he puts exempla and the abstract categories constituting the chapter
headings are often intentionally novel.

The second chapter treats Valerius on the radical reformers the Gracchi and
their agrarian program. Cicero's ambivalence toward these young nobles has
by Valerius been hardened into rhetorical categories. A rhetorical reworking
characterizes Valerius' exempla on Marius and his contemporaries, the
subject of the third chapter. As types of revolutionary bloodletting, these
men (in accord with Cicero's optimate line) are thoroughly condemned.

Valerius' composition celebrates the republican martyrs Cicero and *Cato*,
whose exempla are the focus of the fourth chapter. His panegyrical impulse
has not suppressed the partisans, but (much like his techniques with Marius)
has stripped them of their political resonance. The republic is celebrated,
then, as a stock of moral exemplars with little regard for factional
politics. Valerius' memorialization of these figures avoids conflict or even
comparison with the imperial line. The Caesars are seen, in the fifth
chapter, as the apex of Roman history.

Conclusions on Valerius' use of sources and methods of composition are
offered throughout. The imprint of contemporary panegyric, declamation, and
rhetoric is emphasized also. Valerius' style, now fulsome, now enigmatically
compressed, is seen as a conscious attempt at novelty, at a distinguishing
difference both from contemporary speakers and from his classical sources.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79091 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: On the trial of M. Hortensia
M. Hortensia quiritibus spd;

CORDUS:
" But once again I note that this
appears to be Albucius not only adding to but actually pretty much overriding the written law according to his own view of what was appropriate."

"This is very basic stuff, people. Any lawyer in any civilized
country would be appalled at what was going on in this court."

"[Albucius]He is a magistrate with the highest imperium you can get in
peace-time, and this court was his court that he created and that he was running. That's a huge amount of power and influence. And then he deployed it on behalf of one party against the other"

"People, this trial was an utter disgrace."


"In fact the problems I've described here cast doubt not only on the result of this trial but on the existence of justice in Nova Roma. You should be ashamed of this trial. You should be ashamed that this happened in your community. And you should put it right. I see that people are threatening more trials against other people. I tell you now that if those trials are like this one there is absolutely no point having them. You will not get justice"

ipse dixit
M. Hortensia Maior

p

>
> Cato Apollonio Cordo omnibusque in foro SPD
>
> First, although he may not have liked it, it was good to read something directly from Apollonius Cordus, rather than through a filter.
>
> Having met him in person, it is fairly easy to picture him sort of squinting and nodding his head and explaining his take on this whole thing. And yes, in person he talks exactly the same way :)
>
> Second, his involvement in the trial in no impedes what I still consider our friendship. He was asked by a citizen to perform a function on behalf of that citizen, and he did so, by all accounts admirably and well.
>
> Last, what I have read here is basically the argument in favor of a lex to overturn Maior's sentence; something which it is in the power of a comitia to do. I would suggest that, if she believes it that important, Maior should get to work on convincing a magistrate with the authority to do so to introduce such a lex.
>
> Valete,
>
> Cato
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79092 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: PETITIO ACTIONIS
Salve Sulla,
I'm sorry, but your first sentence is too ungrammatical for me to understand
it. As for the rest, I can only guess you have weird ideas about mating
rituals. Well, to each his own.

Vale,
Livia



> Ave!
>
> Yes you need to spell out to me I guess who you end up treating your
> guests. Because in my world that would get someone arrested for unlawful
> imprisonment and torture. But I guess in your part of the world that is
> just a possible mating ritual for you?
>
> Vale,
>
> Sulla
>
> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 1:26 PM, L. Livia Plauta
> <livia.plauta@...>wrote:
>
>> Salve Sulla,
>> when living together with other people, you have several ways to coerce
>> them
>> to do things. For example you could lock the bathroom door and coerce
>> them
>> to use the other bathroom, or wait until you unlock it, or whatever. Or
>> you
>> could play loud music and coerce them to listen to it or use earplugs.
>> Do I really have to spell out for you something which is so obvious?
>>
>> Vale,
>> Livia
>>
>>
>> > Yo Livia,
>> >
>> > How do you know I am able to do that? And how are Tink and Metellus
>> > able
>> > to
>> > do that? Physically. Come on Livia you opened your trap..explain it
>> > or
>> I
>> > will file charges against you myself! for CALVMINAE
>> >
>> > Vale,
>> >
>> > Sulla
>> >
>> > On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 8:34 AM, L. Livia Plauta
>> > <livia.plauta@...>wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Salve Cato,
>> >> it is ridiculous to think that Piscinus is able to *coerce* anyone in
>> >> Nova
>> >> Roma to do anything.
>> >> Just how do you think he'd coerce anybody? By writing a lot of emails?
>> >> As far as I know only Sulla and the people who live with him would be
>> >> able
>> >> to physically coerce each other to do something, since they are within
>> >> reach
>> >> of each other.
>> >>
>> >> For anyone else, it's ridiculous to postulate it.
>> >> Or do you think Piscinus has a collection of voodoo dolls, and at
>> >> night
>> >> he
>> >> performs rituals to magically coerce people to do his will? Come on!
>> >>
>> >> L. Livia Plauta
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Cato" <catoinnyc@....>
>> >> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>>
>> >> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 2:03 AM
>> >> Subject: [Nova-Roma] PETITIO ACTIONIS
>> >>
>> >> C. Equitius Cato P. Memmio Albucio consule et in loco praetoris sal.
>> >>
>> >> I, Gaius Equitius Cato, citizen, former praetor and current senator of
>> >> the
>> >> Republic of Nova Roma and member of the Board of Directors of Nova
>> >> Roma,
>> >> Inc., wish to lodge formal charges against M. Moravius Piscinus, to
>> >> wit:
>> >>
>> >> 1. FALSUM: that he has coerced members of the comitia curiata to act
>> >> in
>> a
>> >> way inimical to their best interests (lex Salicia poenalis, pars
>> >> altera
>> >> 16).
>> >> He has called the comitia curiata to witness the appointment of a
>> >> dictator
>> >> despite the fact that no such appointment has been made; despite the
>> fact
>> >> that the supposed nominee for the dictatorship has refused to accept
>> >> the
>> >> nomination until a legally-convened Senate has voted to act upon his
>> >> nomination; despite the fact that at least two lictors have stated
>> >> publicly,
>> >> clearly and unequivocally their legal reasons for not wishing to break
>> >> the
>> >> law of Nova Roma; he has attempted to force members of the comitia
>> >> curiata
>> >> to break the law and make themselves liable to charges under Nova
>> >> Roman
>> >> law;
>> >> he has dismissed at least one lictor for refusing to break the law per
>> >> his
>> >> direct instructions.
>> >>
>> >> 2. LAESA PATRIAE: he has overtly acted to damage the institutions of
>> >> the
>> >> Respublica, including the consulate, the Senate and the comitia
>> >> curiata;
>> >> he
>> >>
>> >> has acted in such a way as to endanger the ability of the republic or
>> its
>> >> institutions to perform its legal functions including the consulate,
>> >> the
>> >> Senate and the comitia curiata; he has violated the Constitution of
>> >> Nova
>> >> Roma and therefore the laws of the Respublica and the laws of the
>> >> United
>> >> States under which Nova Roma, Inc. are incorporated, opening up the
>> >> possibility of macronational legal activity against the Respublica
>> >> (loc.cit.
>> >> 21).
>> >>
>> >> 3. CONTUMELIA PIETATE: he is attempting to incite hatred, despite or
>> >> enmity
>> >>
>> >> towards a person or group on the basis of the religious beliefs or
>> >> practices
>> >> of that person or group by claiming that non-practitioners are the
>> >> enemy
>> >> of
>> >>
>> >> the Respublica and the source of its internal challenges (loc.cit.
>> >> 18).
>> >>
>> >> Vale,
>> >>
>> >> Gaius Equitius Cato
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------
>> >
>> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79093 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: On the trial of M. Hortensia
L. Livia Plauta omnibus sal.

As usual it's a pleasure to read a post by A. Apollonius Cordus.

It was very interesting to read what happened "behind the scenes" of the
trial (even though more things might have been happening that even
Apollonius didn't know about).

When the sentence was published I was traveling, with little Internet
access, so I missed the window of opportunity to comment, but I did find
weird that the sententia by Sabinus had exactly the same wording as the call
for a sententia by Albucius.

I'm not really familiar with the leges Saliciae, so I wasn't aware of the
extent to which the call for a sententia was incompatible with said leges.

I know Sabinus as a very intelligent and independent man, who is not afraid
of acting according to his own opinions, even at the cost of getting in
conflict with others, and I know that by no means does he always agree with
Albucius, so when I saw the sententia I assumed that he must have had a
compelling reason for following Albucius' instructions to the letter, and I
suspected that the sententia had been agreed on by both magistrates before
the "call" was published.
I suppose the reason might have been one of political expediency: probably,
though both magistrates knew that Major was innocent of the crime she was
accused of, they thought she deserved a lesson for acting several times
without much diplomacy, and possibly they feared a negative reaction by
public opinion in case she was aquitted.
They were probably right in their assessment, since public opinon in the
whole doesn't seem very outraged by Major's condemnation.
However, whatever the reason for their behaviour, I now realize that the two
magistrates did create a dangerous precedent.

For the situation at hand the only solution seems to be a lex invalidating
the sentence.
For the future we have to hope that the situation will be solved by having
praetors, and that the praetors will follow procedure and nobody will think
of suggesting in public, word by word, the sentence to a judge.

I also suggest that the accused in future learn from Major's mistake, and do
not agree to a jury composed by one judge only.

Optime valete,
Livia


----- Original Message -----
From: "A. Apollónius Cordus" <jamie.k.johnston@...>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 1:10 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] On the trial of M. Hortensia


A. Apollonius omnibus sal.

As you may remember, I don't like participating in this e-mail list these
days. Some of you may be able to sympathize. So I hope you'll understand
that I wouldn't be here, and wouldn't trouble you with this message, if I
didn't think it fairly important.

I say that at the outset because it's going to be a very long message - I
could split it into sections but that would unnecessarily fill the inboxes
of those who have no interest in the topic - and because I want to encourage
you to read it anyway. I want you to read it whether or not you like M.
Hortensia, whether or not you believe she committed the crime for which she
was prosecuted, whether or not you care. I want you to read it if you care
about standards of fairness and justice in this community.

And one last thing before I start: this message is not about whether M.
Hortensia is guilty. As her advocate, it was my duty to argue that she was
not. The trial is over, and I am not her advocate any more. She is still
my friend, but so is Q. Metellus, who prosecuted her, and so (I hope) is C.
Equitius, who was the person whose rights she was prosecuted for infringing.
In short, I have no professional or personal stake in this case any more.
I'm here as a private individual who happens to have considerably more
knowledge of what went on during these legal proceedings than almost all of
you, and who is troubled by that knowledge, and who thinks you should be
troubled too.


At some time before 17 June this year the consul P. Memmius received a
petitio actionis from Q. Metellus. A petitio actionis, literally 'the
seeking of a judicial process', is essentially a request for permission to
take somebody to court. The receipt of such a request triggers the
beginning of the process prescribed by the lex Salicia judiciaria
(supplemented by the lex Salicia poenalis). Now, anyone at all familiar
with Roman legal procedure will recognize the process set out there as a
very close copy of what's called the 'formulary system', which was one of
the main ways ancient Roman magistrates administered justice from about 125
BC to the end of the republic and after. In fact the Salician procedure is,
on paper, quite possibly Nova Roma's most accurate legislative reproduction
of an ancient Roman institution or process. But of course the lex Salicia
isn't a complete description of every detail and every contigency of the
formulary system, and its English is occasionally imperfect or imprecise, so
it still needs to be interpreted by the magistrates who are applying it in a
given case.

The need for interpretation evidently arose as soon as Albucius received
this petitio. Because, you see, he was a consul, and the lex Salicia
doesn't give consules any power to accept or reject or otherwise deal with
petitiones actionis. It only mentions praetores. But at that time there
were no praetores. What was he to do? Other leges were of no assistance.
The lex constitutiva says nothing at all about judicial proceedings, and
does not give any magistrate any power to deal with such proceedings.
Within the written law of Nova Roma there is nothing that explicitly gives
any ordinary magistrate any judicial powers except the leges Saliciae. Now,
some people in Nova Roma believe that the lex constitutiva and the written
leges made under its authority are the only legitimate source of any
magistrate's power, and that if neither the lex constitutiva nor any other
lex explictly says that a magistrate can do something then that magistrate
can't do that thing. There are others who say that there are other sources
of law, principally ancient Roman law and custom, that can properly be used
to supplement the written law as long as the written law doesn't explicitly
contradict them. We don't need to consider which of those groups is right.
We need only observe that the consul must be in the latter group, because
after due consideration he decided that he, as consul, did have the power to
deal with the petitio, despite the fact that nothing can be found in the
written law of Nova Roma that gives him this power. He must, in fact, have
drawn this power from ancient Roman law and practice: of course in the
ancient republic a consul did have the power to preside over judicial
proceedings. Personally, for what it's worth, I agree with him.

So Albucius then had to consider whether to accept or reject the petitio,
applying the test in chapter II of the lex Salicia judiciaria. The lex
Salicia doesn't say that the accused person needs to be notified at this
stage or allowed to say anything about it. But of course we should bear in
mind that in the formulary procedure, on which the lex Salicia is very
closely based, the accused person would necessarily have been physically
present at this stage and would have been able to (and in fact would have
been asked to) participate in the discussion. We should also bear in mind
that, regardless of Roman precedent, it is probably sensible for a
magistrate to involve the accused person at this stage, in case that person
is able to point out a good reason why the petitio should not be accepted;
otherwise the the good reason will only be pointed out *after* the
magistrate has already accepted the petitio, and the magistrate will have
revisit the decision to accept it. Nonetheless, I don't say that there was
any legal obligation on Albucius to involve Major in things at this stage,
and he decided not to. Whether he had any discussions with Metellus about
it I don't know. But he accepted the petitio and, in accordance with the
lex, told Major that he had done so.

This is, of course, where I became involved, because Major asked me to be
her advocate. I quickly got in touch with Albucius and Metellus to say that
I was acting as advocate and that the first thing I would be doing was to
request a reconsideration of the decision to accept the petitio because it
did not, I argued, pass the legal test in ch. II of the lex. At this point
two curious and surprising things happened.

The first was that Albucius indicated that he was not prepared to
communicate with me directly about the case at this stage. This was, he
later explained, because the lex Salicia does not explicitly say that
advocates can be used until the trial itself begins, and he did not want to
do anything that was not explicitly required by the lex. If you contrast
this with his decision that he had the power to deal with the petitio
despite having no explicit authority in written law to do so, you will see
why I call this curious and surprising.

The second curious and surprising thing was that Albucius told Major that he
would not consider any challenge to his acceptance of the petitio. He had
not given her, or anyone else as far as I know, a chance to make any
comments before he accepted the petitio about whether it passed the legal
test for acceptance, and he was not going to give her a chance to make such
comments after he had accepted it. There was to be no opportunity for Major
to point out what she said were solid legal reasons why the petitio was not
acceptable according to the test set out in the lex Salicia. Albucius did
not explain his refusal to hear these arguments. He had decided that the
petitio passed the test. He must presumably have believed, therefore,
either that it was totally impossible that he had missed anything when he
made that decision, or else that it didn't matter whether his decision was
legally right or wrong. Curious and surprising, I say again; and I'm going
to go a little further and suggest that perhaps it's beginning to be
slightly worrying.


So the process continued. P. Memmius invited both parties to make
representations to him before he drew up the formula. The lex Salicia did
not explicitly require him to do this: in fact it gives no indication at all
that anything should be done between notifying the parties that the petitio
has been accepted and issuing the formula. But neither does the lex say
that this should not happen, and it is both eminently sensible and in
accordance with the way the Roman formulary procedure worked, and I praise
Albucius for doing it. I do note, however, that - as I'm sure you've
noticed already - his position regarding exactly how the lex should be
interpreted and applied seemed at this point to be oscillating quite
dramatically between 'I shall do nothing that the lex does not explicitly
require me to do' and 'I shall do what I think appropriate so long as the
lex does not forbid it.'

Anyway, I did duly make representations to him on M. Hortensia's behalf.
Some of them were about procedure. I argued, for example, that there was a
substantial risk that he would be seen as prejudiced against Major, in the
sense that he would appear to have already made up his mind about important
disputed issues in the case: he had made public statements criticizing
Major's decisions to place people on moderation (which was what the case was
all about) and had vetoed two of those decisions himself, and moreover there
were indications that Metellus would actually be using those vetoes as
evidence that the decisions in question were illegal. This raised the
possibility that the court would be considering questions that its presiding
magistrate had already expressed his opinion about in public, and making its
decision based on evidence that included statements and actions by the
presiding magistrate; clearly, I said, there was a serious risk that the
court would not be seen as independent and unbiased. I also argued that the
petitio actionis was too vague for Major to respond to it or to make useful
suggestions about what the formula ought to say, and more detail ought to be
provided by Metellus before the formula was drawn up. In particular, I
proposed that Albucius adopt the procedure that was followed at this point
under the formulary system, namely that the prosecutor should write a
proposed formula and the accused should then respond to it. I had real
hopes that he might do this, since he had already followed the formulary
procedure by holding this discussion before writing the formula. At the
same time, I also put forward as much of a defence to the substance of the
charge as Major was able to provide at that point, given the vagueness of
the allegations. This included raising various issues related to the
interpretation of the offence as it was defined in the lex Salicia poenalis,
ch. 17.1.

To my considerable surprise, the next thing Albucius did was to issue a
formula. In this formula, he said he had 'duly taken in account' my
arguments, but he did not say what his decisions were about any of the
questions they raised, let alone give any reasons for those decisions. He
simply did not give any indication of having made any attempt to resolve
them. He had evidently decided to go ahead as presiding magistrate in spite
of my suggestion that he might appear prejudiced: had he decided that there
was no risk, or that there was a risk but it didn't matter, or something
else? He had evidently decided not to ask Metellus to give any more detail
about his allegations or to propose a draft formula, but he hadn't told
Major that he wasn't going to do this, so right up to the issuing of the
formula we had no idea whether we were going to get any more details or not
and whether we would have to respond to a proposed formula. Does it matter?
you may ask. It does matter, for three main reasons. First, any decision
by a magistrate can be overruled by that magistrate's colleague, and appeal
to another magistrate to do exactly this was a well-established part of
ancient Roman judicial process. But in order to ask a magistrate to
overrule his colleague's decision, you have to actually know what that
decision is. By not telling us what he had decided, Albucius made it
impossible for us to do anything to challenge those decisions. Secondly,
even if we had not wanted to appeal against any of those decisions, we
needed to know what they were in order to know how the trial was going to
proceed. For example, I had also put forward various arguments about what
would happen if the case were transferred to another presiding magistrate.
I'd done this partly in case Albucius accepted my argument that he should
not preside over the case himself, and partly because elections for the
praetura were coming up and I thought it was quite possible that he was
intending to issue the formula, then give Metellus some time to collect
evidence (which was normal in ancient Roman trials), and then, after new
praetores had been elected, to hand over the case to one of them. His
failure to respond to these arguments or tell us what he had decided meant
that we had no idea how he intended to deal with this issue: would he
transfer it to another magistrate or keep it himself? If he transferred it,
would he expect the new magistrate to follow his formula? We didn't know,
and therefore we couldn't plan. And the third reason this failure matters,
which is perhaps the most important reason, is that without giving
on-the-record responses to my arguments he left the questions I'd raised
unresolved, as far as anyone could tell (or can tell now). How can we be
satisfied that these questions were properly dealt with, especially when one
of them concerns doubts about the independence and objectivity of the
presiding magistrate himself, if we have no idea what his decisions were and
how he justified them? At this point I can tell you that I was very
seriously worried about the way these proceedings were being conducted.

At the same time that Albucius said he had 'duly taken in account' the
documents I'd sent him, he also said that these 'will be sent to the
tribunal', i.e. to the judex, who was to be T. Julius. The person who was
going to actually decide the outcome of the case. There are two things
about this that are a bit worrying. One is that there was no reason to send
the documents to Sabinus. They were documents about the formula, how it
should be written, whether it should be written at all, what should be in
it. Those things were a matter for Albucius alone to decide, and he had
done so. He did not give any indication in advance that they would be given
to the judex. There was no reason to give them to the judex because they
were not designed to have anything to do with the matters that the judex had
to consider. In this particular case I couldn't see anything that would
actually cause a problem if the judex saw it, so I didn't make any formal
objection; but the fact that Albucius decided, without consultation and
without warning, to send the judex documents that weren't intended for his
consumption is another indication of a not entirely reassuring attitude to
the proceedings. What's more important - and this really is important - is
that the judex should on no account have had access to any documents that
were not also available to both parties. And it seems that he did. Because
Albucius' comment about taking the documents into account and sending them
to the judex was not just about the documents I'd sent, but about 'the
various documents sent to me, specially by the reus'. Which implies, at
least to me, that there were some other documents that were *not* sent by
the accused, Major, which must presumably have been sent by the only other
person involved, namely Metellus. We had not seen these documents. We had
had no opportunity to respond to them. And, for all I know, Metellus would
never have seen the documents I sent either, if not for the fact that I had
sent him copies myself. Now, it would have been bad enough if Albucius had
received documents that we hadn't seen; but what's much worse is that these
documents were then sent to the judex, and we still hadn't seen them.
Meaning that the judex, who had to make the ultimate decision, would be
making that decision based on documents that we hadn't seen and couldn't
challenge, disagree with, explain, accept, agree with, or respond to in any
way at all. That would not have been allowed in an ancient Roman court, it
would not be allowed in the criminal courts where I work in the UK, and
there is nothing anywhere in the written law of Nova Roma that suggests it
should happen here.

At this point I should say something about the appointment of the judex. I
think someone may have pointed out on this e-mail list already that this is
in contravention of the lex Salicia poenalis, ch. 10.1, which says that a
case like this ought to have been heard by a panel of ten judices. Albucius
was aware of this, and discussed it with me (and perhaps with Metellus too:
I don't know, because this was another occasion on which things were allowed
to be said by one party without the other party knowing what was said), and
after I had consulted my client I informed him that she did not object to
having T. Julius as a single judex. So I do not complain about this. But
once again I note that this appears to be Albucius not only adding to but
actually pretty much overriding the written law according to his own view of
what was appropriate. I just ask you to remember this if we ever in this
story find him justifying any particular procedural decision by saying that
he did exactly what was required by the lex and did not feel that he could
legitimately do anything different.


Now, let's talk about the formula itself, shall we? I think we should,
because it's a remarkable document. It's remarkable in bearing almost no
resemblance whatsoever to an ancient Roman formula, to what the lex Salicia
judiciaria clearly intends a formula to be, or to anything that could
possibly make sense within the system that the leges Saliciae create. But
before we look at the formula in detail, we need to take a step back and
look at the Salician system as a whole. Because one of the best ways to
understand a piece of legislation, and therefore to interpret it when it is
unclear, is to look at it as a whole and try to understand what it is
supposed to accomplish. I've already said something about its similarity to
the ancient Roman formulary system, but let's put that aside for a moment
and just look at it in its own terms. Its first substantive provision, ch.
I, says, 'Any citizen of Nova Roma shall be able to bring an action against
another citizen of Nova Roma.' So it's clear immediately that we're dealing
with a system that's fundamentally about disputes between citizens. It
isn't about the state against the citizen, or the citizen against the state.
It isn't about the court having to deal with a certain situation with the
help of citizens. It's about two citizens having a dispute about a
particular thing and the court providing a mechanism to settle that dispute.
More light is shed on the nature of the system by ch. III: 'If the claim is
dismissed by the praetores, the actor shall be able to present his case
again to the praetores in the future, waiting for two new praetores to be
elected by the Comitia if necessary.' What that tells us is this: if
someone brings a complaint to the court and that complaint is badly framed
or doesn't fit within the framework of the law or has some other flaw, it is
not up to the court to investigate or to try to help that person shape his
complaint into something that would be valid and acceptable. The court is
not supposed to help the parties or take over parts of their jobs. It's
their dispute, and the court's job is simply to arbitrate by choosing one
side or the other as the winner. I'll pass over the chapters that deal
specifically with the formula because I'll need to come back to them soon,
but it's enough for now to say that the formula 'instructs the judices on
the decision they must take'. Let's move on to the trial itself, and to ch.
XII: 'The actor shall present evidence to back his demands, and then the
reus shall present evidence to back his defense.' This will sound very
familiar to North Americans, Britons, Australians, New Zealanders, and many
others, but we should bear in mind that it isn't the way all trials work in
every part of the world. There are some legal systems, called inquisitorial
systems, in which the judge will take an active role in investigating the
complaint that's been raised by gathering facts, questioning witnesses, and
ordering documents to be produced. The alternative, namely an adversarial
system, is what is familiar in countries that inherited the British legal
system, as well as in many international tribunals and others: the judge is
expected to act as a detached arbiter, letting the two sides produce their
own evidence and ultimately choosing between them. The lex Salicia quite
clearly envisages an adversarial system, not an inquisitorial one. It's up
to the two parties to put forward their own evidence and arguments. The
court is not there to help either side or to become involved in the case.
Nor is anyone else expected to get involved or put forward evidence or
arguments. No one else is mentioned in the section that deals with the
trial process except the praetor, and the only thing it says about that is
that '[t]he praetor shall be the final judge to determine what pieces of
evidence are relevant to the case.' Nothing about producing evidence or
putting forward arguments or making statements. So it's very clearly an
adversarial system. And a final thing that makes this even clearer is what
happens at the end of the trial. According to ch. XV, after the parties
have finished presenting their evidence and arguments the praetor then
'call[s] for sententia' and the judices vote. They have only two options:
to condemn or to absolve the accused. They can't give reasons for their
decision; they can't decide that the truth lies somewhere in between the two
options they've been presented with. All they can do is award the victory
to one side or the other. Another feature of the system that's evident from
the lex is that there's a division of labour between the praetor and the
judex. The praetor is in charge at the initial stage of receiving the
petitio, deciding whether it's acceptable, and, if it is, drawing up a
formula. After that the praetor continues to be involved, but only on
procedural and technical points: whether evidence is or is not admissible,
deciding whether the trial should be public or secret, when to call for the
judices to vote. In other words the magistrate is in charge of procedure
and of keeping the trial running. What the judex does is to actually hear
the evidence and the arguments and make the decision. There's no indication
that the judex is supposed to have anything to do with procedure: all the
procedural points that are mentioned are explicitly assigned to the praetor.
The only thing the judex is explicitly commanded to do is to vote.

Let's now go back to that point about the resemblance to ancient Roman
procedure. Because it's possible that many of the things the lex
specifically says are consistent with the ancient procedure but it still has
a different over-all character. Except, no, it has exactly the same
over-all character! The formulary system was adversarial, not
inquisitorial. The formulary system didn't involve the magistrate helping
either side or taking over any part of their jobs. The formulary system
didn't allow anyone to present evidence and arguments except the two parties
involved in the dispute. The formulary system had a separation of roles
between the magistrate and the judex, in which the magistrate handled
procedure and technical points while the judex listened to the evidence and
arguments and then made the decision, which could only be one option or the
other. The whole design of the system is the same. But still, if only we
had some sort of hint that this was what the lex was intended to do. Maybe
if we look at the preamble, where it says, 'These procedures are based on
the Roman republican procedural model, both because it probably is the model
that best suits Nova Roma and because it is the basis for all the procedural
systems of modern Western nations. Some concessions to Nova Roma's
particular structure have had to be made; but, in spirit, it follows the
ancient Roman procedure.' Yeah, that would do. In fact I'd say that's
pretty much the legislative equivalent of hitting a magistrate round the
face with a kipper and saying 'Interpret this lex in accordance with the
spirit of the ancient procedures it's explicitly based on!' Wouldn't you?

It's important to get all that clear in our minds before we look at what the
lex says the formula should be like, because this bit of the lex is, if you
look at it on its own, not all that clear. I'm going to quote it in full:

---
V. Once a claim has been accepted by a praetor, that same praetor shall
prepare a formula to present to the iudices. The formula shall consist of a
logical statement that instructs the iudices on the decision they must take.
The formula shall be structured into four parts: institutio iudicis,
intentio, demonstratio and condemnatio. An explanation of each part follows:

A. INSTITVTIO IVDICIS: This clause appoints a certain iudex to judge the
case (see below).

B. INTENTIO: This part expresses the claim of the actor; i.e., it shall
express what the actor seeks by petitioning the praetor. There are two kinds
of intentio: intentio certa, when the facts that lead to the actor's claim
are so obvious that they do not need to be proved, and intentio incerta,
when the actor must prove the facts that justify his claim.

Example: Intentio Certa: "According to the contract signed by Titius..."
Intentio Incerta: "If it is proved that Ticius owes Gaius 1,000 sestertii,
Gaius shall pay Ticius that same amount".

C. DEMONSTRATIO: This is the clause that further defines an intentio
incerta.

D. CONDEMNATIO: This is the clause that allows the iudices to condemn or
absolve.

Example: a formula could be something like this: "Let Sulpicius be the
iudex. If it is proved that Ticius owes Gaius 1,000 sestertii, you, iudex,
shall condemn Ticius to pay 1,000 sestertii to Gaius; else, you shall acquit
Ticius."

The clauses would be: Institutio Iudicis: "Let Sulpicius be the iudex."
Demonstratio: "If it is proved that ..." Intentio: "... Ticius owes Gaius
1,000 sestertii ..." Condemnatio: "... you, iudex, shall condemn Ticius to
pay 1,000 sestertii to Gaius; otherwise, you shall acquit Ticius."
---

There it is. Now, you can get bogged down in some of these phrases. What
does 'express' mean in B? What does 'further define' mean in C? And so on.
But the lex also gives you a handy example, which makes it pretty clear:
'Let Sulpicius be the judex. If it is proved that Ticius owes Gaius HS
1,000, you, judex, shall condemn Ticius to pay HS 1,000 to Gaius; otherwise,
you shall acquit Gaius.' And it tells you which bit is which. 'Let
Sulpicius be the judex'. That's the institutio judicis, the clause that
'appoints a certain judex to judge the case'. Okay, so you choose a judex
and then you say 'Let [that person] be judex', that's pretty simple. Next
you have a demonstratio that 'further defines' the next bit. How does it do
that? Well, apparently it does that by saying 'If it is proved that...' I
admit I'm not entirely sure how that counts as 'further defining', but I
suspect it probably means that it further limits (which is what 'defines'
literally means) the grammatical and procedural role of the next clause. So
without the 'If' clause you'd just have a formula saying 'Ticius owes Gaius
HS 1,000'. But then you add the demonstratio and it says 'If it is proved
that Ticius owes Gaius...' So it makes it clear (demonstrat) that the
following clause is what the prosecutor has to prove. The next bit, the
intentio, 'express the claim of the actor' by basically summarizing the
prosecutor's allegations. The prosecutor says 'Ticius owes me HS 1,000!'.
The intentio says 'Ticius owes Gaius HS 1,000'. Very straightforward. And
finally the condemnatio, which 'allows the judices to condemn or absolve'.
So it says that the judex can condemn Ticius, and says what to condemn him
to do (i.e. what the penalty is), or acquit him. And combined with the
demonstratio (the 'if' clause) it tells the judex in what circumstances to
condemn and in what circumstances to acquit. It all makes a fair bit of
sense when you use the helpful example. And you can cross-check this with
the wider overview of the system that we've just looked at to make sure it
fits with that. Which it does! It's an adversarial system, hence the
instruction to the judex is to wait and see whether the prosecutor proves
his allegation or not, and then to give the appropriate verdict by choosing
one or the other option (he has proved it, condemno, or he hasn't proved it,
absolvo). It's got that division of labour, because it contains the judex'
instructions for the whole trial: just sit there and work out whether Gaius
has proved it or not. It doesn't say anything about making procedural
decisions or managing the progress of the case. Just one simple but
important task. And, just in case we aren't completely happy with that
interpretation, let's cross-check it again by considering the ancient
formulary procedure that the lex itself explicitly tells us is the spirit of
the system it creates. What do we find? We find that the example given is
pretty much a direct translation of an actual Roman formula from an actual
Roman legal text-book, and that it's analyzed into exactly the same
constituent parts as the Romans analyzed their formulae into. Success! Now
we understand what a formula should do: it should name the judex, take the
allegation of the prosecutor, put it into the form of a conditional
sentence, and tell the judex to condemn the accused if the allegation is
proved and to acquit if it isn't. So in the the case of M. Hortensia I was
expecting a formula something like this: 'Let [name] be judex. If it is
proved that M. Hortensia [did something that amounts to abusus potestatis],
you, judex, shall condemn M. Hortensia to [some specific penalty];
otherwise, you shall acquit her.' I didn't know quite what was going to go
into those brackets because, as I've said, the allegation in the petitio
actionis was pretty vague, but I expected that the necessary detail would be
given so that the judex would know what he was actually supposed to be
doing.

Shall we look at the actual formula? Let's do that. Here it is. Please
read it. All of it:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Novaromatribunalis/message/314

Finished? Well, that wasn't quite what we were expecting, was it? In fact
it looks nothing like a Roman formula, nothing like the sort of formula the
lex appears to have in mind, and nothing like the example that is
specifically set out in the lex. Its article 2 merely states that 'the
present case is... an "intentio incerta"', which shows an obvious failure to
understand the lex. The lex says very clearly that 'intentio' is the name
of part of the formula and an 'intentio incerta' is a type of intentio to be
used in certain types of case: an intentio incerta is not a type of case, it
is a type of intentio. The lex does not require the formula to specify
whether the intentio is certa or incerta, and the example provided in the
lex doesn't do this. The section of the formula titled 'demonstratio' has
nothing whatsoever in common with the demonstratio of the example in the
lex, and in fact nowhere in the entire formula is there even a trace of an
'if' clause. Nor does the formula tell the judex in what circumstances to
absolve or condemn: it simply advises him to do one and not to do the other.
And in fact this brings me to what's even worse about this formula: it isn't
just utterly inadequate, it's completely incompatible with the obvious
interpretation of the lex and of the principles of the system the lex is
there to create. It clearly has no truck at all with the idea of the
presiding magistrate being an impartial figure who doesn't intervene to help
either side or to contribute his own arguments or evidence. It 'interprets'
Q. Metellus' petitio (thus implicitly supporting my earlier point that the
petitio in itself was not sufficiently clear), and then goes into extensive
discussion of whether the legal reasoning in the petitio is correct and
whether Metellus has produced any evidence to support it. There is not the
slightest indication in the lex that a formula should do this, and there is
every indication that it should not, especially if we interpret it in the
way I've suggested above as the obvious, sensible, coherent, and Roman way
to read it. It was unfair to Metellus to criticize him at that stage for
failing to produce evidence: the lex doesn't say that the prosecutor has to
produce any evidence until the trial begins, the sensible interpretation of
the lex doesn't require it, the Roman formulary system did not require it,
and as far as I know Metellus had never been told by Albucius that he should
produce any. Nor was it remotely appropriate to discuss the legal reasoning
of the petitio in the formula. The lex does not provide any room at all for
such discussions in its description of the formula or in its example. The
place for analysis of the legal basis of the petitio is clearly chapter II
of the lex judiciaria, where the presiding magistrate has to decide whether
the petitio is 'incongruent', i.e. 'not supported by law, precedent or
common sense'. It could hardly be clearer in the lex: if a petitio says
that someone should be punished for X and the presiding magistrate's
intepretation of the law is that X is not illegal, then that's an
incongruent claim and the magistrate should dismiss it. What the magistrate
should not do is accept the petitio and then write a formula in which he
says that in his opinion the claim is legally flawed (i.e. incongruent)!
And then, finally, the formula fails to tell the judex what his task is at
all, which is the whole point of the formula. It does not give the judex
two clear options to choose between, which is what the judex needs because
the lex quite clearly gives him only two possible options when returning his
sententia. It does not specify any penalty to be imposed if the judex
condemns the accused, which is what the condemnatio is for and which is also
plainly required elsewhere in the lex, which refers in ch. XV and XVII to
the inclusion of a penalty in the formula. In short, the formula that was
issued in this case does not do *any* of the things the lex required it to
do except naming the judex, and it *does* do several things that are not
only not required by the lex but are clearly incompatible with it and that
betray at best a complete misunderstanding of the lex, including things that
were unfair in themselves such as criticizing the prosecutor for failing to
do something he wasn't required or asked to do, giving an opinion about the
prosecutor's legal reasoning, and, worst of all, utterly compromising the
impartiality of both the magistrate and the judex by telling the judex what
decision he should make about the case.


Well, when I saw that I was pretty perplexed, I can tell you. But even then
I hadn't fully understood the extent of Albucius' misinterpretation of the
Salician system. I did my best to make sense of the formula within the
context of the lex, and what I came up with was this: for some reason he
must have decided that, rather than dismissing the petitio, the appropriate
thing to do was to accept the petitio but then order the judex to
automatically absolve M. Hortensia on the grounds that the petitio was
incongruent. It was a bizarre way of doing things, but it was at least a
way of arriving at the same result as what ought to have happened earlier,
namely dismissing the petitio. It also had analogies in modern legal
systems: in many 'common law' countries, for example, if a jury has been
empanelled to hear a case and then it becomes clear to the judge that the
prosecution has no merit at all the judge will often order the jury to find
the accused not guilty without further ado. I thought Albucius was doing
something like that, because, well, that was the only way I could make any
sense at all of what he was doing.

The next step, then, was obviously for T. Julius the judex to do what the
presiding magistrate had instructed him to do. But this didn't happen. In
fact, what happened - imagine my bafflement, folks! - was that the trial
went ahead. Yes, that's right: the presiding magistrate had issued a
formula telling the judex that the prosecution had no merit and was legally
flawed, and then the trial carried on as if nothing had happened. What? I
mean, what? At this stage I could no longer make any sense at all of what
was going on, and I wrote to P. Memmius and to T. Julius to express my
concerns. Their responses showed several things. First, they showed that
neither of them was observing the clear division of roles in the lex
judiciaria between the judex (whose duty is to choose between the
prosecutor's case and the defence case) and the presiding magistrate (whose
duty is to ensure proper procedures are followed and to make decisions about
the admissibility or evidence, the management of the schedule, &c.). It was
clear, on the contrary, that the judex was making decisions about procedure
and was in charge of the schedule, and that the presiding magistrate
accepted no responsibility for ensuring that the judex applied the correct
interpretation of the law (in fact Albucius explicitly said that he could
not impose his interpretation of the law on Sabinus, although this is
precisely what he was supposed to do). In fact Sabinus, on top of making
decisions about procedure, even said that he had the power to decide what
penalty to impose, and could change his mind about this at any time during
the trial, showing a total misunderstanding of the leges Saliciae, which
make it quite clear that the penalty is to be determined by the presiding
magistrate in the formula and not by the judex, and that the penalty stated
in the formula is to be imposed automatically when the accused person is
condemned, with no possibility of changing it during the trial. Meanwhile
Albucius said that he could not disregard or radically reinterpret the leges
of Nova Roma in order to follow Roman custom or his own idea of what was
best, even though, as I've mentioned earlier, this is exactly what he had
done at least twice before in the court of these judicial proceedings. He
also said that the ancient Roman formulary system did not work like the
system created by the leges Saliciae, which shows, I suggest, that he had
completely misunderstood the leges Saliciae since they patently intend to
create, and do create, a system that works very very like the formulary
system. What's more, Albucius himself said during this discussion that he
found the lex judiciaria very difficult to understand, and expressed the
thought that perhaps part of the problem was his understanding of English.
And yet he was not prepared to enter into any discussion with me about what
the lex meant or how it ought to be interpreted, and he rejected the
possibility of using the ancient Roman system, which the preamble of the lex
specifically cites, as a guide to its interpretation. In fact he even
rejected the guidance that was included within the lex itself: when I
pointed out that the formula didn't match the example provided in ch. V of
the lex, or the explanation of how the example related to the earlier
provisions about the contents of the formula, he said that he regarded these
things as a non-mandatory explanation designed to help the magistrate, and
therefore he didn't feel obliged to follow them. Yes, you read that
correctly: he said he had a lot of trouble understanding the lex, and he
said that the example in the lex was there to help him understand it, and he
said that this was why he thought it was okay to do something completely
different from the example. I know, my mind boggled too. And perhaps even
more mind-boggling was the moment when he basically agreed with me that when
he interpreted the lex judiciaria in the way he had done he discovered that
the lex required him to do things that made very little sense and were often
entirely pointless, whereas my interpretation was coherent and made sense.
This did not, apparently, make him consider that there was any chance of his
interpretation being wrong and mine being right.


Well, after a few e-mails that discussion was duly closed down by both P.
Memmius and T. Julius, who made it clear that they did not want to hear any
more about it. So, on we went with the trial. There was still no clear
definition of what Q. Metellus had to prove before Sabinus could condemn M.
Hortensia. There was still no specified penalty to be imposed if he did.
We still had a judex who thought he was in charge of questions of procedure,
schedule, and law, and we still had a presiding magistrate who let the judex
carry on in this way. In fact I know, because Albucius told me, that they
had had some private e-mail correspondence about the case before the trial
began, and it may well be that they carried on doing so. You remember that
earlier I complained about the judex being given documents that had not been
seen by both parties. Private (i.e. secret) correspondence between the
judex and the presiding magistrate is even more worrying, because it means
the judex has seen things that *neither* party has seen. I have no idea
what they discussed, except that I know they talked about the schedule. I
suspect they also talked about the role of the judex, because otherwise it's
unlikely that both of them would have independently come up with the same
completely misconceived interpretation of the lex. They may have talked
about any number of things, including the merits of the case. We already
know that Albucius saw nothing wrong with giving Sabinus advice about what
decision to make, because that is precisely what he did in the formula, and
that is precisely what he would later do again in his call for a sententia.
Perhaps he did it privately as well. In any case, any correspondence
between the judex and the presiding magistrate should be shown to the
parties, otherwise they can have no idea what is being said and no
opportunity to respond to any points that might affect the judex' opinion
about the case. This is very basic stuff, people. Any lawyer in any
civilized country would be appalled at what was going on in this court.

So, anyway, it was time for opening speeches, and Metellus made his speech.
And now, at last, came the clarifications that I had been consistently
asking Albucius to require and that Albucius had not required: Metellus
voluntarily gave them, because he saw that it wouldn't be a fair trial
without them. He abandoned the original vague scope of the petitio actionis
and now said that there was only one act that he said was an abusus
potestatis, namely the second edictum issued by Major on 6 June. It was an
abusus potestatis, he argued, because she restricted C. Equitius' freedom to
participate in a public forum and because - and this is crucial - she knew
that it was illegal to do so. He asked Sabinus to condemn her only if he,
Metellus, could prove beyond reasonable doubt not only that she restricted
Cato's freedom but also that she knew it was illegal to do so. In my
opening argument I accepted and adopted this approach, and agreed that
Sabinus should not condemn Major unless Metellus proved beyond reasonable
doubt that she knew or believed she was doing something illegal. And I also
said this: 'In view of the agreement between the two parties about this
element - the necessity of knowledge, i.e. intention - I do not suppose it
is necessary to spend any more time on the point. But if, despite our
agreement, you feel inclined to doubt that this element is a necessary and
fundamental part of the case that must be proven to you, then I ask you to
say so now in order that I may try to persuade you of it.' Sabinus did not
say anything about it. But just to make absolutely sure, I contacted him
privately (sending a copy also to Albucius and to Metellus, because, as I've
mentioned, it is not appropriate for one party to say things to the judex
without the other party knowing) before I closed my case, and I asked, 'May
I assume that you do not need to be persuaded any further on this point, or
would you like to hear more argument about it?' He replied (again with
copies to Metellus and Albucius) that there was no need for me to say
anything more about it. So right up until the end of the trial, after
Metellus and I had both had our last opportunity to address any remaining
points of law or fact, both I and Metellus believed that if Sabinus was not
persuaded beyond reasonable doubt that Major believed she was doing
something illegal then he would absolve her, and we both believed that
Sabinus agreed.

Obviously this meant that Major's state of mind was an important issue in
the case: did she do something she believed to be illegal? Without proving
that, Metellus could not win the case. So I called various witnesses to
give evidence about this. I asked them whether they thought she would do
anything she believed was illegal. They all said they thought it was very
unlikely. Naturally enough, Metellus wanted to cross-examine them. But
Sabinus prevented him, saying, 'I'm sorry to say that the
questions you presented here have not any connection with the case...
Therefore these questions are not allowed.' There are two things to notice
here. The first is that Sabinus was making a decision about the
admissibility of evidence. The lex Salicia gives the judex no power to make
such a decision. On the contrary, every decision of this kind that is
specifically mentioned in the lex is said to be within the power of the
praetor, not of the judex. This is also in agreement with the Roman
formulary system. Moreover, ch. XIII says 'The praetor shall be the final
judge to determine what pieces of evidence are relevant to the case.' So
decisions about the relevance of evidence are not only implicitly but
explicitly the preserve of the presiding magistrate, not the judex. Sabinus
exercised a power that was not his, and Albucius allowed him to do so. The
second point is that Sabinus was, at least arguably, wrong. The questions
Metellus asked were designed to rebut Major's case that she did not do, and
would not have done, anything she thought was illegal - which, as I said
above, was a crucial part of what Metellus had to disprove in order to win.
He wanted to do this by undermining the credibility of one of my witnesses
and by directly challenging the statement of another who said that he had
never heard any suggestion that Major was contemplating acting illegally.
The questions, in my opinion, were entirely relevant to the case, and
Metellus ought to have been allowed to ask them. It was unfair to prevent
him, and it was also contrary to the lex Salicia for this decision to be
made by the judex.


And the trial went on. We made our closing remarks. Then came the part of
the process described by the lex judiciaria, ch. XIV: 'Once both parties
have presented their evidence, each party shall have the opportunity to make
one final statement in front of the judices, with the actor speaking in the
first place. Then the praetor shall call for a sententia (sentence) from the
judices, according to paragraph XV, reminding the judices that, in case of
doubt, they must *not* condemn the reus.' I'm just going to repeat that
last sentence: 'Then the praetor shall call for a sententia (sentence) from
the judices, according to paragraph XV, reminding the judices that, in case
of doubt, they must *not* condemn the reus'. What, then, does the presiding
magistrate have to do at this stage? He has to call for a sententia, i.e.
ask the judex to deliver his verdict, and he had to remind the judex not to
condemn the accused if he has any doubt about her guilt. Those are the two
things, and the only two things, that the lex calls for the presiding
magistrate to do at this stage.

Let's see what Albucius did:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Novaromatribunalis/message/360

Did you read it? All of it. Please, do read the whole thing. This is
important. We're near the end of my message, and this is possibly the most
important part of the whole thing.

Okay, now what did Albucius do here? What he did was this: he took over
Metellus' job of prosecuting the case, and he also took over Sabinus' job of
settling the case. Metellus, as I mentioned earlier, began the trial by
clarifying exactly what his accusation was: Major's second edictum of 6 June
was illegal, he said, and she knew it was illegal. That's what he set out
to prove, and that's the basis on which he wanted Sabinus to condemn her,
not on any other basis. Issuing that edictum is the only thing he said
amounted to a criminal offence, nothing else. If he didn't prove that
beyond reasonable doubt, then she should be absolved. That's what he said,
and that's what I said, and that's what Sabinus indicated he accepted. So
that's what he argued for, and that's what I argued against. That's what he
produced evidence to support, and that's what I produced evidence to refute.
Like good lawyers, we did not waste the court's time with anything that was
not directly relevant to that central question: was the second edictum of 6
June illegal, and did Major believe it was illegal? That's what the whole
trial was about, from start to finish. But the presiding magistrate
obviously wasn't happy with the way Metellus was doing his job, because
after all the evidence had been produced and all the arguments made, he
decided to mount a whole different prosecution of his own. He talks about
'a last argument of the actor, according which the violation, by Hortensia,
of the laws of Nova Roma would result first of the fact that her moderation
decisions have been vetoed, and second that she would have refused to obey
these vetos'. He 'considers' it, and he decides that 'it has been
demonstrated, from the pieces of evidence brought by both parties, that, on
this only point, former praetor Hortensia Maior "used (her) magisterial
powers to act against the lawful rights of a person", here G. Equitius Cato,
by re-issuing twice on June 6, and without legal base a measure of
moderation which should have been considered by her as having ended on June
1.' Let's be clear what's happening here. This is not 'a last argument of
the actor'. Metellus *never* argued that Major had committed any crime
whatsoever by means of refusing to obey vetoes. He made it absolutely clear
throughout the trial that the only relevance of the vetoes was as evidence
that she must have known she was doing something illegal. According to his
case, her refusal to obey vetoes was evidence of a crime, but it was not a
crime itself. The argument that 'the violation, by Hortensia, of the laws
of Nova Roma would result... of the fact... that she would have refused to
obey these vetoes' was *invented by the presiding magistrate of the this
trial* and was never even hinted at in this court until after both the
prosecutor and the advocate for the defence had closed their cases.

And there's a second point. At the risk of being tedious, let me remind you
once again that Metellus consistently throughout the trial said that there
was only one criminal edictum and it was the second edictum of 6 June. Only
one. I specifically asked him about this (message 323 in the court archive)
and he confirmed it (message 328). So all our arguments on both sides were
concerned with whether that one edictum was criminal or not. But what does
the presiding magistrate say? 'Hortensia Maior "used (her) magisterial
powers to act against the lawful rights of a person"... by re-issuing twice
on June 6... a measure of moderation...' *By re-issuing twice*. What he's
saying here is that the crime was issuing *both* the edicta of 6 June. That
is another thing that Metellus *never* said. This is not Albucius agreeing
with Metellus' argument; this is Albucius making up a whole new argument of
his own. And look, here's a third example of the same thing: 'its cause
cannot be find but in the will that Hortensia had at this time that G.
Equitius Cato be sanctioned, whatever the legality of such sanctions'.
*Whatever the legality of such sanctions*. In other words, he is saying
that Major is guilty because she did not care whether her actions were legal
or not. But once again this has nothing to do with what Metellus said. He
said that she was guilty because she knew, she *actually knew*, that she was
doing something illegal. Once again, I specifically asked him (message 323
again) to clarify this point: did he say that she could be found guilty on
the basis that she didn't care whether her actions were illegal or not, or
did he say she could only be guilty if she actually knew they were illegal;
again, he confirmed that his argument was based solely on the allegation
that she actually knew they were illegal (message 328). So once again all
our arguments and evidence on both sides were concerned with that point.
But then Albucius says she is guilty because she decided to sanction Cato
'whatever the legality of the sanctions'. Because she acted without caring
whether she was acting illegally or not. The prosecutor of the case - the
person whose very job it is to prove the accused guilty - said that this
would not be enough to make her guilty. But the presiding magistrate, whose
job is to be impartial, overruled the prosecutor and put forward his own
argument that she was guilty even if she didn't think she was acting
illegally.

Folks, there is so much wrong with this I don't even know where to start,
but let's stick with the point I've just alluded to. The presiding
magistrate in a trial should not be putting forward prosecution arguments at
any stage. He is not the prosecutor. There's already somebody doing that
job, and, as it happens in this case, doing it well. It is not the
presiding magistrate's job. In fact if the presiding magistrate is doing
that then not only is he doing something that isn't his job, he's doing the
exact opposite of his job. He's supposed to be independent, impartial,
sitting above the arguments and just making sure the trial runs smoothly.
That's how it was in Roman times, and that's how it's clearly meant to be
under the leges Saliciae even if you read them in complete isolation from
Roman law, which they specifically tell you not to do. If the presiding
magistrate doesn't occupy that role and only that role, the whole system
makes absolutely no sense. It's like having a tennis match in which the
umpire suddenly climbs down from his chair, picks up a racket, and goes and
joins one of the players. Not only have you then got two players unfairly
competing against one, you've also got *no umpire*. And in fact it's worse
than that, because Albucius didn't just become a second prosecutor here. He
became a super-prosecutor. Because he's started out as the boss of the
whole show. He gave Sabinus his instructions. He talked him through the
schedule of the trial, not to mention anything else he may have said to him
in private e-mails that we don't know about. He is a magistrate with the
highest imperium you can get in peace-time, and this court was his court
that he created and that he was running. That's a huge amount of power and
influence. And then he deployed it on behalf of one party against the
other. This is not just some random guy turning up at court and having a go
at prosecuting after the first prosecutor has finished: this is Sabinus'
boss, who is also the highest magistrate in the state, telling Sabinus what
the right answer is. If you think that's fair, I know some delightful
military dictatorships where you'd absolutely love being put on trial.

But let's forget for a minute that the presiding magistrate should not have
been doing this at all. *When* did he do it? He did it after both parties
had closed their cases and there could be no more argument or evidence from
either side. We had spent the whole trial completely focused on proving or
disproving the case as Metellus had argued it. For every argument that
Metellus put forward I had an opportunity to respond to it. For every piece
of evidence he produced I had an opportunity to criticize it. And for every
argument and piece of evidence I deployed Metellus had an opportunity to
deal with it (except for Sabinus' improper rejection of his
cross-examination, which I've already mentioned). And *then* Albucius
reaches into his top hat and pulls out a whole new prosecution case, and I
had absolutely no chance whatsoever to say anything about it. I couldn't
point out its logical flaws, I couldn't say anything about how it misapplied
and misinterpreted the law, I couldn't produce any evidence to rebut its
factual allegations. It was pretty much the equivalent of putting Major on
trial a second time, with a whole new prosecution case, and not letting her
say a single word in her own defence. Have another look at that 'call for a
sententia'. See how it carefully examines and rejects my arguments against
the case it's putting forward? No, you don't, because there were no
arguments against that case, because I wasn't allowed to make any, because I
didn't have even the tiniest hint that that case was going to be happening
until it was too late.

And let's not even get into whether Albucius' arguments were right or not.
We really haven't got time for that. Let's not even ask ourselves whether
it's at all dodgy that Albucius decided Major was guilty because she
disobeyed vetoes, and whose vetoes were they exactly? Oh, that's right,
some of them were Albucius' vetoes! So basically he decided that she was
guilty because she did something he told her not to do. That doesn't in any
way undermine the impartiality and independence of this verdict, does it?
Oh, right, it does. Well, if only somebody had pointed out right at the
beginning of these proceedings that maybe it was a bad idea to have the
trial being presided over by a magistrate who had issued vetoes that were
likely to be used as evidence in the case! Oh, right, somebody did. But
never mind that. Let's move on to what happened next.

What happened next was Sabinus giving a verdict after hearing two different
prosecution cases: one by Metellus, one by Albucius. He condemned Major, so
he must have agreed with one of them but which one? What has Major actually
been found guilty of doing? This is important, people, because part of the
purpose of our criminal law is to deter people from doing things we don't
want them to do. And in order to be deterred, people need to know what it
actually is that they're being deterred from doing. Albucius said Major was
guilty because she disobeyed (his) vetoes, but Metellus never suggested
that. So was she condemned because she disobeyed vetoes or not? Does this
verdict mean that disobeying a veto is a criminal offence or doesn't it? We
have no idea. Metellus said that the crime was issuing the second edictum
of 6 June, but Albucius said that it was only a crime if you look at the two
edicta together. These are not only two different bases of guilt, they're
actually contradictory. Think about it: if both the edicta together make
one crime, then each edictum separately is not a crime (otherwise they'd be
two crimes, not one). So Metellus is saying that the second edictum on its
own was a crime, and Albucius is saying that the second edictum on its own
was *not* a crime. Which version did Sabinus find her guilty of? We don't
know. What is a future magistrate supposed to do with this information?
What exactly is a future magistrate supposed to be deterred from doing? We
have no idea! This verdict has no deterrent effect whatsoever because we
simply don't know what Major has actually been condemned for. By setting
himself up as a second prosecutor Albucius has not only achieved the unfair
and wrongful conviction of M. Hortensia, he has also single-handedly
defeated a major part of the social usefulness of the trial that he was in
charge of. And not only has this verdict, because of the way it came about,
been unfair to Major and unhelpful to the entire community, it's also done
no favours at all for the prosecutor. I want to say for the record that in
my opinion Metellus conducted himself unimpeachably throughout the trial.
He was cooperative and polite at every stage. When Sabinus set an
unrealistic schedule that would have been completely physically impossible
for me to meet, Metellus could have sat back and watched me miss the
deadlines and lose the case as a result, but he didn't: he supported my
objections and asked for a more realistic schedule. He clarified his
specific allegations and explicitly identified his interpretation of the
law, even when the presiding magistrate had consistently failed to require
him to do so, because he knew that justice demanded it. Metellus wanted a
fair fight, and he wanted to win it fairly. He didn't get one. He has been
cheated by this unfair judicial process just as M. Hortensia has, and just
as you have.

Wait, I feel like I've forgotten something. Oh yes, the call for a
sententia. Remember a little while ago I went over what the lex Salicia
says has to be in the call for a sententia, and then I mentioned the fact
that Albucius issued one that contained a whole load of stuff that shouldn't
have been in it, and that's what I've been talking about for the last six
paragraphs? Well, before we finish, let's just check whether the call for a
sententia at least did manage to include all the things the lex required.
It shouldn't be hard, because, remember, there were only two of them. It
had to 'call for a sententia' and it had to 'remind... the <br/><br/>(Message over 64 KB, truncated)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79094 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: PETITIO ACTIONIS
Well Livia,

My first sentence, while written in a rush since I was working at the time
is still rather understandable.

Yes you need to spell out to me I guess who you end up treating your guests.


So, what I am saying is Yes, you need to spell it out to me, I guess because
your words seem to indicate how you treat your own guests.

Since, you have no bases of knowledge how I treat my own house guests. I
just assumed that you are basing the baseless accusation on your own
personal experience.

Vale,

Sulla

On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 8:17 AM, L. Livia Plauta <livia.plauta@...>wrote:

>
>
> Salve Sulla,
> I'm sorry, but your first sentence is too ungrammatical for me to
> understand
> it. As for the rest, I can only guess you have weird ideas about mating
> rituals. Well, to each his own.
>
> Vale,
> Livia
>
>
> > Ave!
> >
> > Yes you need to spell out to me I guess who you end up treating your
> > guests. Because in my world that would get someone arrested for unlawful
> > imprisonment and torture. But I guess in your part of the world that is
> > just a possible mating ritual for you?
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Sulla
> >
> > On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 1:26 PM, L. Livia Plauta
> > <livia.plauta@... <livia.plauta%40gmail.com>>wrote:
> >
> >> Salve Sulla,
> >> when living together with other people, you have several ways to coerce
> >> them
> >> to do things. For example you could lock the bathroom door and coerce
> >> them
> >> to use the other bathroom, or wait until you unlock it, or whatever. Or
> >> you
> >> could play loud music and coerce them to listen to it or use earplugs.
> >> Do I really have to spell out for you something which is so obvious?
> >>
> >> Vale,
> >> Livia
> >>
> >>
> >> > Yo Livia,
> >> >
> >> > How do you know I am able to do that? And how are Tink and Metellus
> >> > able
> >> > to
> >> > do that? Physically. Come on Livia you opened your trap..explain it
> >> > or
> >> I
> >> > will file charges against you myself! for CALVMINAE
> >> >
> >> > Vale,
> >> >
> >> > Sulla
> >> >
> >> > On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 8:34 AM, L. Livia Plauta
> >> > <livia.plauta@... <livia.plauta%40gmail.com>>wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Salve Cato,
> >> >> it is ridiculous to think that Piscinus is able to *coerce* anyone in
> >> >> Nova
> >> >> Roma to do anything.
> >> >> Just how do you think he'd coerce anybody? By writing a lot of
> emails?
> >> >> As far as I know only Sulla and the people who live with him would be
> >> >> able
> >> >> to physically coerce each other to do something, since they are
> within
> >> >> reach
> >> >> of each other.
> >> >>
> >> >> For anyone else, it's ridiculous to postulate it.
> >> >> Or do you think Piscinus has a collection of voodoo dolls, and at
> >> >> night
> >> >> he
> >> >> performs rituals to magically coerce people to do his will? Come on!
> >> >>
> >> >> L. Livia Plauta
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> From: "Cato" <catoinnyc@....>
> >> >> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com><Nova-Roma%
> 40yahoogroups.com>>
> >> >> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 2:03 AM
> >> >> Subject: [Nova-Roma] PETITIO ACTIONIS
> >> >>
> >> >> C. Equitius Cato P. Memmio Albucio consule et in loco praetoris sal.
> >> >>
> >> >> I, Gaius Equitius Cato, citizen, former praetor and current senator
> of
> >> >> the
> >> >> Republic of Nova Roma and member of the Board of Directors of Nova
> >> >> Roma,
> >> >> Inc., wish to lodge formal charges against M. Moravius Piscinus, to
> >> >> wit:
> >> >>
> >> >> 1. FALSUM: that he has coerced members of the comitia curiata to act
> >> >> in
> >> a
> >> >> way inimical to their best interests (lex Salicia poenalis, pars
> >> >> altera
> >> >> 16).
> >> >> He has called the comitia curiata to witness the appointment of a
> >> >> dictator
> >> >> despite the fact that no such appointment has been made; despite the
> >> fact
> >> >> that the supposed nominee for the dictatorship has refused to accept
> >> >> the
> >> >> nomination until a legally-convened Senate has voted to act upon his
> >> >> nomination; despite the fact that at least two lictors have stated
> >> >> publicly,
> >> >> clearly and unequivocally their legal reasons for not wishing to
> break
> >> >> the
> >> >> law of Nova Roma; he has attempted to force members of the comitia
> >> >> curiata
> >> >> to break the law and make themselves liable to charges under Nova
> >> >> Roman
> >> >> law;
> >> >> he has dismissed at least one lictor for refusing to break the law
> per
> >> >> his
> >> >> direct instructions.
> >> >>
> >> >> 2. LAESA PATRIAE: he has overtly acted to damage the institutions of
> >> >> the
> >> >> Respublica, including the consulate, the Senate and the comitia
> >> >> curiata;
> >> >> he
> >> >>
> >> >> has acted in such a way as to endanger the ability of the republic or
> >> its
> >> >> institutions to perform its legal functions including the consulate,
> >> >> the
> >> >> Senate and the comitia curiata; he has violated the Constitution of
> >> >> Nova
> >> >> Roma and therefore the laws of the Respublica and the laws of the
> >> >> United
> >> >> States under which Nova Roma, Inc. are incorporated, opening up the
> >> >> possibility of macronational legal activity against the Respublica
> >> >> (loc.cit.
> >> >> 21).
> >> >>
> >> >> 3. CONTUMELIA PIETATE: he is attempting to incite hatred, despite or
> >> >> enmity
> >> >>
> >> >> towards a person or group on the basis of the religious beliefs or
> >> >> practices
> >> >> of that person or group by claiming that non-practitioners are the
> >> >> enemy
> >> >> of
> >> >>
> >> >> the Respublica and the source of its internal challenges (loc.cit.
> >> >> 18).
> >> >>
> >> >> Vale,
> >> >>
> >> >> Gaius Equitius Cato
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ------------------------------------
> >> >
> >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79095 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: On the trial of M. Hortensia
I think we have more important fish to fry than your attempt to deviate from
the illegal senate call and the attempt by your patron, Piscinus in his role
in said Senate call. I notice he is especially quiet with regards to the
questions that Marcus Octavius posted. Very very quiet.

Vale,

Sulla

On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 2:32 PM, rory12001 <rory12001@...> wrote:

>
>
> M. Hortensia quiritibus spd;
>
> CORDUS:
>
> " But once again I note that this
> appears to be Albucius not only adding to but actually pretty much
> overriding the written law according to his own view of what was
> appropriate."
>
> "This is very basic stuff, people. Any lawyer in any civilized
> country would be appalled at what was going on in this court."
>
> "[Albucius]He is a magistrate with the highest imperium you can get in
>
> peace-time, and this court was his court that he created and that he was
> running. That's a huge amount of power and influence. And then he deployed
> it on behalf of one party against the other"
>
> "People, this trial was an utter disgrace."
>
> "In fact the problems I've described here cast doubt not only on the result
> of this trial but on the existence of justice in Nova Roma. You should be
> ashamed of this trial. You should be ashamed that this happened in your
> community. And you should put it right. I see that people are threatening
> more trials against other people. I tell you now that if those trials are
> like this one there is absolutely no point having them. You will not get
> justice"
>
> ipse dixit
> M. Hortensia Maior
>
> p
>
>
> >
> > Cato Apollonio Cordo omnibusque in foro SPD
> >
> > First, although he may not have liked it, it was good to read something
> directly from Apollonius Cordus, rather than through a filter.
> >
> > Having met him in person, it is fairly easy to picture him sort of
> squinting and nodding his head and explaining his take on this whole thing.
> And yes, in person he talks exactly the same way :)
> >
> > Second, his involvement in the trial in no impedes what I still consider
> our friendship. He was asked by a citizen to perform a function on behalf of
> that citizen, and he did so, by all accounts admirably and well.
> >
> > Last, what I have read here is basically the argument in favor of a lex
> to overturn Maior's sentence; something which it is in the power of a
> comitia to do. I would suggest that, if she believes it that important,
> Maior should get to work on convincing a magistrate with the authority to do
> so to introduce such a lex.
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > Cato
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79096 From: Jean-François Arnoud Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re : Your "instructions" to the Lictores curiati
Ave M. Moravi,

You wrote:

"Albucius' veto was overruled..."

It is not true. Show me the law in which it is written that a consul veto of a
call senate session to order can be overruled. If you think that 4 tribunes can
overrule 1 consul veto, you are wrong. Nor NR laws, neither mos maiorum and
history showed this kind of thing.  Never. You are absolutly not able to show me
one example of that. Give me a T. Livy, Varro, Valerius Maximus, Cato the Elder,
Cornelius Nepos, Julius Caesar example, I do not beg many examples, I am not
demanding a lot of examples, I beg only... one.

Optime vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79097 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: Witnessing appointment
C. Petronius M. Maiori s.p.d.,

> Ego, M. Hortensia Maior, lictrix curiata Novae Romae testificor Cn. Equitium Marinum Magisterum Populi et Dictatorem Novae Romae creari. Lictrix Comitiorum Curiatorum ei opto ut pro religione Romana felicissime officio munereque suo fungatur.

Once again it is not right...

Optime vale.

CPD
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79098 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: Your "instructions" to the Lictores curiati
M. Moravius Piscinus Pontifex Maximus Quiritibus, cultoribus et omnibus s. p. d.

Since my earlier reply to Consul Memmius was not posted for some reason, I resend it now.


M. Moravius Piscinus Pontifex Maximus P. Memmio Consuli s. p. d.

I know perfectly well what the law is, as you and your rebellious cohorts do not appear know.

First, Maine Non Profit Statute 13-B on a legal quorum has:

Quorum 1. Members entitled to vote. The bylaws may provide the number or percentage of members entitled to vote represented in person or by proxy, or the number or percentage of votes represented in person or by proxy, which shall constitute a quorum at a meeting of members. In the absence of any such provision, members holding 1/10 of the votes entitled to be cast on the matter to be voted upon represented in person or by proxy shall constitute a quorum. A majority of the votes entitled to be cast on a matter to be voted upon by the members present or represented by proxy at a meeting at which a quorum is present shall be necessary for the adoption thereof unless a greater proportion is required by this Act, the articles of incorporation or the bylaws.[ 1977, c. 525, ˜13 (NEW) .]

2. Meeting with less than a quorum. The members present at a duly called or held meeting at which a quorum was once present may continue to do business at the meeting or at any adjournment thereof, notwithstanding the withdrawal of enough members to leave less than a quorum.[ 1977, c. 525, ˜13 (NEW) .]
http://www.maineleg islature. org/legis/ statutes/ 13-b/title13- Bsec605.html

No matter how you wish to dismiss it, the Senate session held by Consul Fabius was legal. The attempt of some to withdraw after voting began made no difference under Maine's corporate laws. Your own attempt to call the Senate, on the other hand, did not meet quorum and was not called with proper auspices taken, and you are in violation of decreta augurum and decreta pontificum, which under the Constitution is also part of our laws.

Your veto was overruled by the Tribuni Plebis, whether you wish to ignore that or not. [To this I can also add that the Constitution IV.A.7.d.1 "To call the Senate to order" refers back to the "Tribuni Plebis" in the plural, and no where does any laws prohibit the Tribuni Plebis joining together with a Consul to call the Senate to order. But the Constitution IV.A.7.c does, however, state that the Tribuni Plebis are "To be immune from intercessio pronounced by other magistrates." So you could not and cannot veto the Tribuni Plebis from calling the Senate, and therefore it is your veto that was illegal.]

The majority of the Senate voted to appoint Censorius Cn. Equitius Marinus as Magister Populi et Dictator. It does not matter that you and a handful of individuals and non-citizens oppose the results, this was the legal outcome, of a legally called and legally held Senate session.

The Constitution IV.B.1: "The dictator shall hold Imperium."

The Constitution III.A.1 on the Comitia Curiata: "To invest elected and appointed magistrates with Imperium . . . without right of refusal individually or as a body."

Cn. Equitius Marinus was lawfully appointed to become dictator and thus to hold imperium, and therefore the Comitia Curiata is required to invest him with imperium and may not constitutionally refuse to recognize his appointment. That is the law, Consuli, whether you and a minority of senators wish to place blinders to it on yourselves. But as the vote in the Senate overwhelming approved the appointment and the Tribuni Plebis have published their report making the appointment official, neither you or I, nor the Comitia Curiata, shall be able to avoid the appointment much longer.

C. Tullius Valerianus had a constitutional duty, as do all the Lictores curiati, to post their witness statements. They cannot refuse to do so, not individually or as a comitia. As I am aware of the controversy and the unresolved situation as yet, I provided those who do not agree with the Senate's decision an option by which they might quietly abstain if they chose to do so. In that way they would not violate the letter of the law. Valerianus chose not to abide with the Constitution or his instructions, and went even further in haranguing another Lictrix because she had performed her constitutional duty. He did so on the Comitia Curiata list and was therefore dismissed from the list. His behavior shall be brought before the Collegium Pontificum in its session later this month, as will any other Lictores who openly violate their constitutional responsibility to post their witness statements; that is, those who would publicly refuse to do so. Valerianus remains a Lictor until the Collegium Pontificum decides otherwise, but that does not give him any right to encourgae others in the Comitia Curiata to violate their constitutional obligations and so I dismissed him from the comitia's list. As far as my treatment of a camillus and pontifex minor, I am reminded of Pontifex Maximus P. Licinius Crassus Dives and what was require of him towards the pontifex minor L. Cantilius.

For five years there was an absent Pontifex Maximus who neglected his duties in spite of the pleas of his fellow Pontifices, the Senate, and Consules. Perhaps this was why some in Nova Roma have become complacent towards the Religio Romana in Nova Roma and why non-practitioners of the Religio think they impose upon it to remain silent as it was under the last years of Cassius. But as with my predecessor Licinius Dives, Nova Roma now has an active Pontifex Maximus to reassert the authority and privileges of our Quattuor Summa Collegia.

Consuli, I have received a request from Augur Agricola that the matter of your violation of the decreta augura be taken before the Collegium Pontificum for a determination of impietate prudens dolo malo. I have been delaying such a request while you remain in office. However, I note that you have once again violated the decreta augura and the Senate rules by attempting to assemble the Senate without first having auspices taken on your behalf. And you were previously instructed not to take auspices on behalf of Nova Roma until such time as the Collegium Augurum was satisfied that you would take them properly. I remind you once again that the decreta of our Collegia are law in Nova Roma, as provided in the Constitution, and that magisterial edicta, being of lesser authority, may not conflict with a decreta augurum. Thus your call of the Senate by magisterial edictum, without auspices first being taken and in violation of the previous Decreta Augurum would be a clear violation of the Constitution, as well as Senate rules, and conceivably an abuse of your consular authority. Rightly should it be vetoed by the Tribuni Plebis, as should any further edicta you would issue based on an illegally called session, without a quorum present, and without proper auspicia taken. Proceeding further in defiance of Decreta Augura and Decreta Pontifica that clearly prohibit the call of the Senate without proper auspicia is not only a matter of impietas prudens dolo malo as stated in the Decretum Pontificum, but it is also a violation of the Constitution VI.A and the Lex Salicia Poenalis 21: Laesa Patriae since by ignoring the constitutional powers, privileges and rights of the sacerdotal Collegia is damaging to the religio and its institutions and infringes upon the religio Romana and its institutions to perform their legal functions within Nova Roma, and thereby also endangers the Res Publica. Your repeated violations of your duties as a consul in regard to the institutions of the Religio Romana is a serious matter. I shall no longer ignore them as you have tried to ignore the authority of the Collegia over matters of importance with regard to the Religio Romana.

Now, the situation as I see it is this. Three Lictores curiati have already issued their witness statements publicly. More will be posted. A majority of the Lictores is not required, as the Comitia Curiata cannot refuse nor neglect to pass a Lex Curiata de Imperio under the Constituion III.A.1. As the presiding official of the Comitia Curiata I have the prerogative to delay issuing the Lex Curiata until such time as I feel enough Lictores Curiati have witnessed the appointment of Cn. Marinus as Magister Populi et Dictator. At any time during this period while the individual Lictores Curiati are witnessing the appointment, Censorius Cn. Marinus may take his oath of office. Then when the Lex Curiata de imperio is publicly announced he shall be the lawful Magister Populi et Dictator of Nova Roma. Then shall we leave it to Magister Populi Marinus to arbitrate these disputes.

Vade in pace Deorum nostrorum




--- On Mon, 8/2/10, Publius Memmius Albucius <albucius_aoe@...> wrote:


From: Publius Memmius Albucius <albucius_aoe@...>
Subject: Your "instructions" to the Lictores curiati
To: "Marcus Moravius Horatius Piscinus" <mhoratius@...>
Cc: nova-roma@yahoogroups.com, "M. Corva Gaudialis" <aerdensrw@...>, "Caeso Fabius Quintilianus" <christer.edling@...>, "Fabius Buteo Modianus" <tau.athanasios@...>, "Cnaeus Cornelius Lentulus" <cn_corn_lent@...>, "Palladius" <bcatfd@...>, "Gnaeus Equitius Marinus" <gawne@...>, canadaoccidentalis@..., c.curius@..., "Gaius Petronius Dexter" <jfarnoud94@...>, "Cornelius Felix Sulla" <robert.woolwine@...>, "Livia Plauta" <livia.plauta@...>, byzandroid@..., magisterbrodd@..., "M. Arminius Maior" <marminius@...>, "Q. Caecilius Metellus" <postumianus@...>, "Q. Fabius Maximus" <qfabiusmaxmi@...>, rory12001@..., "Ullerius Venator" <famila.ulleria.venii@...>, teleriferchnyfain@..., marcus@..., nrcomitiacuriata@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, August 2, 2010, 6:48 PM


Pontifico maximo Moravio s.d.

I have been requested to intervene in this matter, whose I was not aware, until now, of the details. I must say that I am discovering them, as the letter below that you sent to Valerianus lictor, with surprise, deception and, I cannot hide it, a real irritation.

You seem having taken no account of my letter of last July 11th, that you will find again at the end of this letter.

In addition, beside behaving with a lictor curiatus as if he was one of your personal slaves - and I am sure that you would better treat your domestic staff - you brought to him, in order to make pressure on him, inexact information that a less patient observer than I am may may say that they are... just lies.
You perfectly know that Hon. Marinus has not been appointed dictator for I have legally vetoed the session where in this blitz-decision was submitted, and for its convening did not respected our Constitution. As a consequence, there exists no legal decision that a lictor or any officer or magistrate would be obliged, except if he intends to take part to a coup d'etat, applying and respecting. In addition, every lictor who would currently refuse to defer to this inconstitutional "decision" just honors his/her name, her/his office and the Republic.

I must here underline that, if the lictors are effectively appointed by the Collegium Pontificum, they cannot be thus dismissed by you from the Comitia curiata, if and when you decide, just because their individual or political positions are not conform to your own political line.

I ask you, for the second and last time, and independantly of your other positions, to change your behavior towards our lictors curiati and to come back to the observation of the Law.

Concerning C. Tullius Valerianus, and for the sole fact he just defended the legality of our institutions, be informed that I will consider with the utmost attention the measures that you are intending to take or propose the Collegium Pontificum. I wish that your decision be the wise one, for I do not wish being obliged intervening, what I constantly avoided doing since last January, in the affairs of our Collegia.

Vale,

@
P. Memmius Albucius cos.
@

______________Kal. Aug._____________________________________________________________________________________________________
@
M. Moravius Piscinus C. Tullio Valeriano dicit:

You have received your instructions as have all other Lictores curiati. The appointment of Cn. Marinus was legally approved by the majority of the Senate in a vote of 16 to 1, posted by the Tribunus Plebis, and acknowledged by both consuls as so reported. The Constitution does not give any individual Lictor or the Comitia Curiata as a whole to depart from the decision of the Senate.

My instructions were that if you disagreed with the decision of the Senate that you should remain silent. As you have done otherwise and have attempted to encourage other Lictores to disobey their constitutional duties, you are dismissed from the Comitia Curiata and your appointment as a Lictor shall be reviewed by the Collegium Pontificum at its next session.
@

______________________________a.d. Idus Quint. (July 11)____________________________________________________________________________

Moravio Pontifico maximo s.d.

I am writing to you about your last address (below) to the lictors of our Comitia curiata. Even if the matter itself is now behind us, I feel obliged, once again, as consul, to remind our Law. For your words below exceed the normal legal relation which should exist between the comitia and yourself.

The Comitia curiata is not, as you affirm, a 'religious institution'. It is a public assembly of our Republic, which is recognized as such by our Constitution. The fact that the lictors curiati be appointed by the Collegium Pontificum, and that the Comitia be called to order by the PM does not transform it in some group "under the authority of the Collegium Pontificum" and would be required to apply its rulings, as simple scribes would.

As well, the members of the Comitia hold their first duties, as every member of our Republic constitutional bodies, towards the comitia as a whole and our Republic, and are not, as you write it, "obliged to abide with decreta issued by the Quattor Summa Collegia", a fortiori when those decreta are unconstitional.

Again, you cannot "instruct" the members of any comitia: the lictors curiati are not the soldiers of a Novaroman legion placed under the command of the pontifex maximus, how ever be his military skills.

Things work here as like in every (democratic) assembly: you are to convene, as pontifex maximus, the comitia, whose members vote as responsible adults and as they see fit. Naturally, you may campaign to try to influence their vote. No law forbids this.

On the fact that "the Collegium Augurum has declared the praetores suffecti in vitio creati. As such, (you) will not call the Comitia Curiata to assemble against the decretum augurum.", I cannot but take notice of your intention.

Your sentence "If you cannot abide with the decreta of our Collegia, then you ought to resign now. Also, violations of instructions or decreta are subject to a determination by the Collegium Pontificum." sounds more ! like a blackmail and an illegal pressure on the lictors, and based, in addition, on the violation of the constitution that I have stated in another circumstance. Such argument is not conform to the dignitas of your office, Pontifex Maxime, and I suggest that you come back to a behavior more conform with the laws of our Republic and our Roman values and virtues.

Vale respectfully Pontifex Maximus,


Albucius cos.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



M. Moravius Piscinus Pontifex Maximus lictoribus s. p. d.

Let me make some things clear right now. The Constitution states:

III. Comitia

A. The comitia curiata (Assembly of Curiae) shall be made up of thirty lictores curiati (lictors of the curia), appointed to their positions by the collegium pontificum (college of pontiffs). It shall be called to order by the Pontifex Maximus, and the collegium pontificum shall set the rules by which the comitia curiata shall operate internally.

The Comitia Curiata is a religious institution. It is solely under the authority of the Collegium Pontificum. It may only be called to assemble by the Pontifex Maximus. No lictor may act alone, and no witness statements have any validity without the Comitia Curiata first being called into session.

As a religious institution, members of the Curiata, beginning with the Pontifex Maximus, and then all lictores curiati appointed by the Collegium Pontificum, are obliged to abide with decreta issued by the Quattor Summa Collegia. On the other hand, under the Constitution IV.A.9 lictores curiati are specifically not magistrates and are not, therefore, under the authority of any magisterial edicta. A magisterial edictum cannot be issued to instruct the Comitia Curiata or the lictores curiati on their duties. Only the Collegium Pontificum has constitutional authority over the procedures of the Comitia Curiata.

The Collegium Augurum has declared the praetores suffecti in vitio creati. As such, I will not call the Comitia Curiata to assemble against the decretum augurum.

All lictores curiati are instructed *not* to issue witness statements until and unless the Pontifex Maximus first calls the Comitia Curiata into seesion and so instructs the lictores curiati to witness the proper election of magistrates.

If you cannot abide with the decreta of our Collegia, then you ought to resign now. Also, violations of instructions or decreta are subject to a determination by the Collegium Pontificum.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79099 From: Cato Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: On the trial of M. Hortensia
Cato omnibus in foro SPD

Last, what I have read here is basically the argument in favor of a lex to overturn Maior's sentence; something which it is in the power of a comitia to do. I would suggest that, if Maior believes it that important, rather than continuing to parrot out Cordus' words (I believe all of us are capable of reading, Maior) she should get to work on convincing a magistrate with the authority to do so to introduce such a lex.

Valete,

Cato



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> M. Hortensia quiritibus spd;
>
> CORDUS:
> " But once again I note that this
> appears to be Albucius not only adding to but actually pretty much overriding the written law according to his own view of what was appropriate."
>
> "This is very basic stuff, people. Any lawyer in any civilized
> country would be appalled at what was going on in this court."
>
> "[Albucius]He is a magistrate with the highest imperium you can get in
> peace-time, and this court was his court that he created and that he was running. That's a huge amount of power and influence. And then he deployed it on behalf of one party against the other"
>
> "People, this trial was an utter disgrace."
>
>
> "In fact the problems I've described here cast doubt not only on the result of this trial but on the existence of justice in Nova Roma. You should be ashamed of this trial. You should be ashamed that this happened in your community. And you should put it right. I see that people are threatening more trials against other people. I tell you now that if those trials are like this one there is absolutely no point having them. You will not get justice"
>
> ipse dixit
> M. Hortensia Maior
>
> p
>
> >
> > Cato Apollonio Cordo omnibusque in foro SPD
> >
> > First, although he may not have liked it, it was good to read something directly from Apollonius Cordus, rather than through a filter.
> >
> > Having met him in person, it is fairly easy to picture him sort of squinting and nodding his head and explaining his take on this whole thing. And yes, in person he talks exactly the same way :)
> >
> > Second, his involvement in the trial in no impedes what I still consider our friendship. He was asked by a citizen to perform a function on behalf of that citizen, and he did so, by all accounts admirably and well.
> >
> > Last, what I have read here is basically the argument in favor of a lex to overturn Maior's sentence; something which it is in the power of a comitia to do. I would suggest that, if she believes it that important, Maior should get to work on convincing a magistrate with the authority to do so to introduce such a lex.
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > Cato
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79100 From: Cato Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: On the trial of M. Hortensia
Cato Cornelio Sullae sal.

That's because he has been caught - again.

He was caught trying to use extortion to get his way - and we have the emails to prove it.

Now he has been caught trying to engineer a coup d'etat - and again we have the speeches to prove it.

Vale,

Cato



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robert Woolwine <robert.woolwine@...> wrote:
>
> I think we have more important fish to fry than your attempt to deviate from
> the illegal senate call and the attempt by your patron, Piscinus in his role
> in said Senate call. I notice he is especially quiet with regards to the
> questions that Marcus Octavius posted. Very very quiet.
>
> Vale,
>
> Sulla
>
> On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 2:32 PM, rory12001 <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > M. Hortensia quiritibus spd;
> >
> > CORDUS:
> >
> > " But once again I note that this
> > appears to be Albucius not only adding to but actually pretty much
> > overriding the written law according to his own view of what was
> > appropriate."
> >
> > "This is very basic stuff, people. Any lawyer in any civilized
> > country would be appalled at what was going on in this court."
> >
> > "[Albucius]He is a magistrate with the highest imperium you can get in
> >
> > peace-time, and this court was his court that he created and that he was
> > running. That's a huge amount of power and influence. And then he deployed
> > it on behalf of one party against the other"
> >
> > "People, this trial was an utter disgrace."
> >
> > "In fact the problems I've described here cast doubt not only on the result
> > of this trial but on the existence of justice in Nova Roma. You should be
> > ashamed of this trial. You should be ashamed that this happened in your
> > community. And you should put it right. I see that people are threatening
> > more trials against other people. I tell you now that if those trials are
> > like this one there is absolutely no point having them. You will not get
> > justice"
> >
> > ipse dixit
> > M. Hortensia Maior
> >
> > p
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Cato Apollonio Cordo omnibusque in foro SPD
> > >
> > > First, although he may not have liked it, it was good to read something
> > directly from Apollonius Cordus, rather than through a filter.
> > >
> > > Having met him in person, it is fairly easy to picture him sort of
> > squinting and nodding his head and explaining his take on this whole thing.
> > And yes, in person he talks exactly the same way :)
> > >
> > > Second, his involvement in the trial in no impedes what I still consider
> > our friendship. He was asked by a citizen to perform a function on behalf of
> > that citizen, and he did so, by all accounts admirably and well.
> > >
> > > Last, what I have read here is basically the argument in favor of a lex
> > to overturn Maior's sentence; something which it is in the power of a
> > comitia to do. I would suggest that, if she believes it that important,
> > Maior should get to work on convincing a magistrate with the authority to do
> > so to introduce such a lex.
> > >
> > > Valete,
> > >
> > > Cato
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79102 From: Diana Octavia Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: Witnessing witnesses
Octavia omnibus in foro SPD

I, Diana Octavia Aventina hereby witness lictors witnessing something that
has not happened.
Duh.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79103 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: Witnessing appointment
I, M. Hortensia Maior, as a Lictrix of Nova Roma, hereby witness the
appointment of Gnaeus Equitius Marinus as Magister Populi et Dictator of Nova Roma. As a member of the Comitia Curiata I wish him good fortune in his office and in his work on behalf of the Religio Romana.



Ego, M. Hortensia Maior, lictrix curiata Novae Romae testificor Cn. Equitium Marinum Magistrum Populi et Dictatorem Novae Romae creari. Lictrix Comitiorum Curiatorum ei opto ut pro religione Romana felicissime officio munereque suo fungatur

M. Hortensia Maior

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@...> wrote:
>
> C. Petronius M. Maiori s.p.d.,
>
> > Ego, M. Hortensia Maior, lictrix curiata Novae Romae testificor Cn. Equitium Marinum Magisterum Populi et Dictatorem Novae Romae creari. Lictrix Comitiorum Curiatorum ei opto ut pro religione Romana felicissime officio munereque suo fungatur.
>
> Once again it is not right...
>
> Optime vale.
>
> CPD
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79104 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: Your "instructions" to the Lictores curiati
M. Moravius Piscinus Pontifex Maximus Quiritibus, cultoribus et omnibus s. p. d.

Likewise my reply to Tribunus C. Petronius apparently was prevented from being posted to the ML earlier, so I resend it now.


Salve Tribune C. Petroni

The Senate rules do say that, which means that the ploy of those who tried to back out of the session that appointed Marinus as Dictator means nothing and that Marinus is in fact appointed, if not quite installed yet. Albucius' veto was overruled so don't even try bringing up that old argument to me. Now then, the Senate Rules also say that a session cannot be called until *favorable* auspices are *attained.* Not merely requested as in the old decretum pontificum. Albucius tries to go around that provision by including a request for auspices in his call to the Senate. Just as he tries to conflate imperium with auspicium, he is trying to conflate two separate steps into one. And he continues to try to act as if by being consul maior, as he calls himself, that he holds greater powers than his colleague and that his powers also exceed the constitutional rights and privileges of our Collegia. His disregard of precedents and laws amount to an abuse of authority to invest himself with dictatorial powers.

The SCU that Albucius tried to pass is illegal as it states that the Senate invests the Consul maior alone to appoint new praetores. Even in recognizing that the Consul minor could veto his selections, the wording violates what the Constitution states on SCU's. Further, by proposing this without proper auspices taken first, the SCU's are vitiated as well as illegal under Senate Rules.

On my instructions to ALL of the Lictores curiati, before Valerianus violated them, I notice that the Consul did not include them in his previous email. So I shall below. I know from their statements elsewhere that there are other Lictores who disagree with Marinus' appointment. I have not tried to coerce any of them to post witness statements. The Constituion does not allow Lictores curiati to refuse to do their duty. But it also does not require that they participate in witnessing appointments. So I reminded them of that option. But openly refusing, and going further in encouraging others to openly disobey their constitutional responsibilities as Valerianus did, clearly warrants action by the Collegium Pontificum that has constitutional authority to appoint, and therefore remove, Lictores curiati. Lictor Valerianus was dismissed from the Curiata list for violating the Constitution and the DECRETUM DE RATIONE COMITIORUM CURIATATORUM in trying to disrupt the proceedings of the Comitia Curiata, and therefore also dirupted the decorum of the Curiata. The matter of whether he should be allowed to remain a Lictor must await a determination of the Collegium Pontificum.

No Lictores curiati who fail to post a witness will be brought before the Collegium Pontificum for expulsion since I consider them not to have violated their constitutional duty and not to have violated my instructions. The Magister Populi designatus has also asked for clemency in the matter of Lictor Valerianus, which the Collegium Pontificum may grant. But unlike others, I am not looking at merely the current situation we have, but also the precedent it could set if Lictores curiati are permitted to act as Valerianus has.

Vale optime

M. Moravius Piscinus
Pontifex Maximus

____________________

29 July 2010 NRComitiaCuriata msg # 201: Comitia Curiata is Now Assembled

M. Moravius Piscinus Pontifex Maximus Lictoribus omnibus s. p. d.

The Comitia Curiata is now Called to Order for the purpose of investing Gnaeus Equitius Marinus, Censoirus et Magister Populi designatus, with imperium for the office of dictator.

First I shall address some issues that have been raised.

Gn. Equitius Marinus has been appointed dictator by a majority of the Senate. Whether you agree with this or not, that is the fact. We, as members of the Comitia Curiata, are bound by the Constitution of Nova Roma to perform our duties as lictores curiati.

The Constitution both describes our duties and limits them. First, though, IV.B.1 on the extraordinary magistrates, in this case the dictator, says that "the Senate may appoint a dictator to . . . hold Imperium . . ." Magistrates, whether ordinary or extraordinary, are invested with imperium by the Comitia Curiata. That is our main function.

The Constitution describes the Comitia Curiata as well as its duties, the main duty being, at III.A.1:

"To invest elected and appointed magistrates with Imperium . . . without right of refusal individually or as a body;"

The Comitia Curiata has no power, no constitutional authority to refuse to pass a lex curiata de imperio, or to reject a magistrate once elected or appointed. No individual lictor may refuse to witness the investure of imperium on magistrates whether these are ordinarii or extraordinarii magistrates. No lictor may vote against passage of a lex curiata since the Constitution does not allow it.

Any lictor who disobeys this injunction of the Constitution by openly refusing or neglecting to perform your constitutional duty is always subject to removal from office by the Collegium Pontificum. I would hope we don't have to come to that. So, if you oppose the dictatorship, just don't post a witness statement. And don't tell me or anyone, publicly or privately, that you are knowingly not
posting a witness statement.

At this moment the Curiata is caught in the middle of things, but it is our place to allow others to work out the problems. Our only responsibility for now is to perform the duties allowed to the Curiata by the Constitution. And the Constitution does not give the Comitia Curiata or any individual lictor any choices on performing his or her duty.


Di Deaeque te servent cum tuis.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79105 From: Vedius Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: Your "instructions" to the Lictores curiati
Oddly, Marinus himself seem to disagree with your interpretation.

Perhaps Rasputin and his Tsar-to-be should get on the same page.

Vedius

marcushoratius wrote:
> M. Moravius Piscinus Pontifex Maximus Quiritibus, cultoribus et omnibus s. p. d.
>
> Since my earlier reply to Consul Memmius was not posted for some reason, I resend it now.
>
>
> M. Moravius Piscinus Pontifex Maximus P. Memmio Consuli s. p. d.
>
> I know perfectly well what the law is, as you and your rebellious cohorts do not appear know.
>
> First, Maine Non Profit Statute 13-B on a legal quorum has:
>
> Quorum 1. Members entitled to vote. The bylaws may provide the number or percentage of members entitled to vote represented in person or by proxy, or the number or percentage of votes represented in person or by proxy, which shall constitute a quorum at a meeting of members. In the absence of any such provision, members holding 1/10 of the votes entitled to be cast on the matter to be voted upon represented in person or by proxy shall constitute a quorum. A majority of the votes entitled to be cast on a matter to be voted upon by the members present or represented by proxy at a meeting at which a quorum is present shall be necessary for the adoption thereof unless a greater proportion is required by this Act, the articles of incorporation or the bylaws.[ 1977, c. 525, �˜13 (NEW) .]
>
> 2. Meeting with less than a quorum. The members present at a duly called or held meeting at which a quorum was once present may continue to do business at the meeting or at any adjournment thereof, notwithstanding the withdrawal of enough members to leave less than a quorum.[ 1977, c. 525, �˜13 (NEW) .]
> http://www.maineleg islature. org/legis/ statutes/ 13-b/title13- Bsec605.html
>
> No matter how you wish to dismiss it, the Senate session held by Consul Fabius was legal. The attempt of some to withdraw after voting began made no difference under Maine's corporate laws. Your own attempt to call the Senate, on the other hand, did not meet quorum and was not called with proper auspices taken, and you are in violation of decreta augurum and decreta pontificum, which under the Constitution is also part of our laws.
>
> Your veto was overruled by the Tribuni Plebis, whether you wish to ignore that or not. [To this I can also add that the Constitution IV.A.7.d.1 "To call the Senate to order" refers back to the "Tribuni Plebis" in the plural, and no where does any laws prohibit the Tribuni Plebis joining together with a Consul to call the Senate to order. But the Constitution IV.A.7.c does, however, state that the Tribuni Plebis are "To be immune from intercessio pronounced by other magistrates." So you could not and cannot veto the Tribuni Plebis from calling the Senate, and therefore it is your veto that was illegal.]
>
> The majority of the Senate voted to appoint Censorius Cn. Equitius Marinus as Magister Populi et Dictator. It does not matter that you and a handful of individuals and non-citizens oppose the results, this was the legal outcome, of a legally called and legally held Senate session.
>
> The Constitution IV.B.1: "The dictator shall hold Imperium."
>
> The Constitution III.A.1 on the Comitia Curiata: "To invest elected and appointed magistrates with Imperium . . . without right of refusal individually or as a body."
>
> Cn. Equitius Marinus was lawfully appointed to become dictator and thus to hold imperium, and therefore the Comitia Curiata is required to invest him with imperium and may not constitutionally refuse to recognize his appointment. That is the law, Consuli, whether you and a minority of senators wish to place blinders to it on yourselves. But as the vote in the Senate overwhelming approved the appointment and the Tribuni Plebis have published their report making the appointment official, neither you or I, nor the Comitia Curiata, shall be able to avoid the appointment much longer.
>
> C. Tullius Valerianus had a constitutional duty, as do all the Lictores curiati, to post their witness statements. They cannot refuse to do so, not individually or as a comitia. As I am aware of the controversy and the unresolved situation as yet, I provided those who do not agree with the Senate's decision an option by which they might quietly abstain if they chose to do so. In that way they would not violate the letter of the law. Valerianus chose not to abide with the Constitution or his instructions, and went even further in haranguing another Lictrix because she had performed her constitutional duty. He did so on the Comitia Curiata list and was therefore dismissed from the list. His behavior shall be brought before the Collegium Pontificum in its session later this month, as will any other Lictores who openly violate their constitutional responsibility to post their witness statements; that is, those who would publicly refuse to do so. Valerianus remains a Lictor until the Collegium Pontificum decides otherwise, but that does not give him any right to encourgae others in the Comitia Curiata to violate their constitutional obligations and so I dismissed him from the comitia's list. As far as my treatment of a camillus and pontifex minor, I am reminded of Pontifex Maximus P. Licinius Crassus Dives and what was require of him towards the pontifex minor L. Cantilius.
>
> For five years there was an absent Pontifex Maximus who neglected his duties in spite of the pleas of his fellow Pontifices, the Senate, and Consules. Perhaps this was why some in Nova Roma have become complacent towards the Religio Romana in Nova Roma and why non-practitioners of the Religio think they impose upon it to remain silent as it was under the last years of Cassius. But as with my predecessor Licinius Dives, Nova Roma now has an active Pontifex Maximus to reassert the authority and privileges of our Quattuor Summa Collegia.
>
> Consuli, I have received a request from Augur Agricola that the matter of your violation of the decreta augura be taken before the Collegium Pontificum for a determination of impietate prudens dolo malo. I have been delaying such a request while you remain in office. However, I note that you have once again violated the decreta augura and the Senate rules by attempting to assemble the Senate without first having auspices taken on your behalf. And you were previously instructed not to take auspices on behalf of Nova Roma until such time as the Collegium Augurum was satisfied that you would take them properly. I remind you once again that the decreta of our Collegia are law in Nova Roma, as provided in the Constitution, and that magisterial edicta, being of lesser authority, may not conflict with a decreta augurum. Thus your call of the Senate by magisterial edictum, without auspices first being taken and in violation of the previous Decreta Augurum would be a clear violation of the Constitution, as well as Senate rules, and conceivably an abuse of your consular authority. Rightly should it be vetoed by the Tribuni Plebis, as should any further edicta you would issue based on an illegally called session, without a quorum present, and without proper auspicia taken. Proceeding further in defiance of Decreta Augura and Decreta Pontifica that clearly prohibit the call of the Senate without proper auspicia is not only a matter of impietas prudens dolo malo as stated in the Decretum Pontificum, but it is also a violation of the Constitution VI.A and the Lex Salicia Poenalis 21: Laesa Patriae since by ignoring the constitutional powers, privileges and rights of the sacerdotal Collegia is damaging to the religio and its institutions and infringes upon the religio Romana and its institutions to perform their legal functions within Nova Roma, and thereby also endangers the Res Publica. Your repeated violations of your duties as a consul in regard to the institutions of the Religio Romana is a serious matter. I shall no longer ignore them as you have tried to ignore the authority of the Collegia over matters of importance with regard to the Religio Romana.
>
> Now, the situation as I see it is this. Three Lictores curiati have already issued their witness statements publicly. More will be posted. A majority of the Lictores is not required, as the Comitia Curiata cannot refuse nor neglect to pass a Lex Curiata de Imperio under the Constituion III.A.1. As the presiding official of the Comitia Curiata I have the prerogative to delay issuing the Lex Curiata until such time as I feel enough Lictores Curiati have witnessed the appointment of Cn. Marinus as Magister Populi et Dictator. At any time during this period while the individual Lictores Curiati are witnessing the appointment, Censorius Cn. Marinus may take his oath of office. Then when the Lex Curiata de imperio is publicly announced he shall be the lawful Magister Populi et Dictator of Nova Roma. Then shall we leave it to Magister Populi Marinus to arbitrate these disputes.
>
> Vade in pace Deorum nostrorum
>
>
>
>
> --- On Mon, 8/2/10, Publius Memmius Albucius <albucius_aoe@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: Publius Memmius Albucius <albucius_aoe@...>
> Subject: Your "instructions" to the Lictores curiati
> To: "Marcus Moravius Horatius Piscinus" <mhoratius@...>
> Cc: nova-roma@yahoogroups.com, "M. Corva Gaudialis" <aerdensrw@...>, "Caeso Fabius Quintilianus" <christer.edling@...>, "Fabius Buteo Modianus" <tau.athanasios@...>, "Cnaeus Cornelius Lentulus" <cn_corn_lent@...>, "Palladius" <bcatfd@...>, "Gnaeus Equitius Marinus" <gawne@...>, canadaoccidentalis@..., c.curius@..., "Gaius Petronius Dexter" <jfarnoud94@...>, "Cornelius Felix Sulla" <robert.woolwine@...>, "Livia Plauta" <livia.plauta@...>, byzandroid@..., magisterbrodd@..., "M. Arminius Maior" <marminius@...>, "Q. Caecilius Metellus" <postumianus@...>, "Q. Fabius Maximus" <qfabiusmaxmi@...>, rory12001@..., "Ullerius Venator" <famila.ulleria.venii@...>, teleriferchnyfain@..., marcus@..., nrcomitiacuriata@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, August 2, 2010, 6:48 PM
>
>
> Pontifico maximo Moravio s.d.
>
> I have been requested to intervene in this matter, whose I was not aware, until now, of the details. I must say that I am discovering them, as the letter below that you sent to Valerianus lictor, with surprise, deception and, I cannot hide it, a real irritation.
>
> You seem having taken no account of my letter of last July 11th, that you will find again at the end of this letter.
>
> In addition, beside behaving with a lictor curiatus as if he was one of your personal slaves - and I am sure that you would better treat your domestic staff - you brought to him, in order to make pressure on him, inexact information that a less patient observer than I am may may say that they are... just lies.
> You perfectly know that Hon. Marinus has not been appointed dictator for I have legally vetoed the session where in this blitz-decision was submitted, and for its convening did not respected our Constitution. As a consequence, there exists no legal decision that a lictor or any officer or magistrate would be obliged, except if he intends to take part to a coup d'etat, applying and respecting. In addition, every lictor who would currently refuse to defer to this inconstitutional "decision" just honors his/her name, her/his office and the Republic.
>
> I must here underline that, if the lictors are effectively appointed by the Collegium Pontificum, they cannot be thus dismissed by you from the Comitia curiata, if and when you decide, just because their individual or political positions are not conform to your own political line.
>
> I ask you, for the second and last time, and independantly of your other positions, to change your behavior towards our lictors curiati and to come back to the observation of the Law.
>
> Concerning C. Tullius Valerianus, and for the sole fact he just defended the legality of our institutions, be informed that I will consider with the utmost attention the measures that you are intending to take or propose the Collegium Pontificum. I wish that your decision be the wise one, for I do not wish being obliged intervening, what I constantly avoided doing since last January, in the affairs of our Collegia.
>
> Vale,
>
> �@
> P. Memmius Albucius cos.
> �@
>
> ______________Kal. Aug._____________________________________________________________________________________________________
> �@
> M. Moravius Piscinus C. Tullio Valeriano dicit:
>
> You have received your instructions as have all other Lictores curiati. The appointment of Cn. Marinus was legally approved by the majority of the Senate in a vote of 16 to 1, posted by the Tribunus Plebis, and acknowledged by both consuls as so reported. The Constitution does not give any individual Lictor or the Comitia Curiata as a whole to depart from the decision of the Senate.
>
> My instructions were that if you disagreed with the decision of the Senate that you should remain silent. As you have done otherwise and have attempted to encourage other Lictores to disobey their constitutional duties, you are dismissed from the Comitia Curiata and your appointment as a Lictor shall be reviewed by the Collegium Pontificum at its next session.
> �@
>
> ______________________________a.d. Idus Quint. (July 11)____________________________________________________________________________
>
> Moravio Pontifico maximo s.d.
>
> I am writing to you about your last address (below) to the lictors of our Comitia curiata. Even if the matter itself is now behind us, I feel obliged, once again, as consul, to remind our Law. For your words below exceed the normal legal relation which should exist between the comitia and yourself.
>
> The Comitia curiata is not, as you affirm, a 'religious institution'. It is a public assembly of our Republic, which is recognized as such by our Constitution. The fact that the lictors curiati be appointed by the Collegium Pontificum, and that the Comitia be called to order by the PM does not transform it in some group "under the authority of the Collegium Pontificum" and would be required to apply its rulings, as simple scribes would.
>
> As well, the members of the Comitia hold their first duties, as every member of our Republic constitutional bodies, towards the comitia as a whole and our Republic, and are not, as you write it, "obliged to abide with decreta issued by the Quattor Summa Collegia", a fortiori when those decreta are unconstitional.
>
> Again, you cannot "instruct" the members of any comitia: the lictors curiati are not the soldiers of a Novaroman legion placed under the command of the pontifex maximus, how ever be his military skills.
>
> Things work here as like in every (democratic) assembly: you are to convene, as pontifex maximus, the comitia, whose members vote as responsible adults and as they see fit. Naturally, you may campaign to try to influence their vote. No law forbids this.
>
> On the fact that "the Collegium Augurum has declared the praetores suffecti in vitio creati. As such, (you) will not call the Comitia Curiata to assemble against the decretum augurum.", I cannot but take notice of your intention.
>
> Your sentence "If you cannot abide with the decreta of our Collegia, then you ought to resign now. Also, violations of instructions or decreta are subject to a determination by the Collegium Pontificum." sounds more ! like a blackmail and an illegal pressure on the lictors, and based, in addition, on the violation of the constitution that I have stated in another circumstance. Such argument is not conform to the dignitas of your office, Pontifex Maxime, and I suggest that you come back to a behavior more conform with the laws of our Republic and our Roman values and virtues.
>
> Vale respectfully Pontifex Maximus,
>
>
> Albucius cos.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> M. Moravius Piscinus Pontifex Maximus lictoribus s. p. d.
>
> Let me make some things clear right now. The Constitution states:
>
> III. Comitia
>
> A. The comitia curiata (Assembly of Curiae) shall be made up of thirty lictores curiati (lictors of the curia), appointed to their positions by the collegium pontificum (college of pontiffs). It shall be called to order by the Pontifex Maximus, and the collegium pontificum shall set the rules by which the comitia curiata shall operate internally.
>
> The Comitia Curiata is a religious institution. It is solely under the authority of the Collegium Pontificum. It may only be called to assemble by the Pontifex Maximus. No lictor may act alone, and no witness statements have any validity without the Comitia Curiata first being called into session.
>
> As a religious institution, members of the Curiata, beginning with the Pontifex Maximus, and then all lictores curiati appointed by the Collegium Pontificum, are obliged to abide with decreta issued by the Quattor Summa Collegia. On the other hand, under the Constitution IV.A.9 lictores curiati are specifically not magistrates and are not, therefore, under the authority of any magisterial edicta. A magisterial edictum cannot be issued to instruct the Comitia Curiata or the lictores curiati on their duties. Only the Collegium Pontificum has constitutional authority over the procedures of the Comitia Curiata.
>
> The Collegium Augurum has declared the praetores suffecti in vitio creati. As such, I will not call the Comitia Curiata to assemble against the decretum augurum.
>
> All lictores curiati are instructed *not* to issue witness statements until and unless the Pontifex Maximus first calls the Comitia Curiata into seesion and so instructs the lictores curiati to witness the proper election of magistrates.
>
> If you cannot abide with the decreta of our Collegia, then you ought to resign now. Also, violations of instructions or decreta are subject to a determination by the Collegium Pontificum.
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79106 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: Your "instructions" to the Lictores curiati
IF they did, then it would be a first! So much for dictator and rex getting
along LOL

On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 3:37 PM, Vedius <vedius@...> wrote:

> Oddly, Marinus himself seem to disagree with your interpretation.
>
> Perhaps Rasputin and his Tsar-to-be should get on the same page.
>
> Vedius
>
> marcushoratius wrote:
> > M. Moravius Piscinus Pontifex Maximus Quiritibus, cultoribus et omnibus
> s. p. d.
> >
> > Since my earlier reply to Consul Memmius was not posted for some reason,
> I resend it now.
> >
> >
> > M. Moravius Piscinus Pontifex Maximus P. Memmio Consuli s. p. d.
> >
> > I know perfectly well what the law is, as you and your rebellious cohorts
> do not appear know.
> >
> > First, Maine Non Profit Statute 13-B on a legal quorum has:
> >
> > Quorum 1. Members entitled to vote. The bylaws may provide the number
> or percentage of members entitled to vote represented in person or by proxy,
> or the number or percentage of votes represented in person or by proxy,
> which shall constitute a quorum at a meeting of members. In the absence of
> any such provision, members holding 1/10 of the votes entitled to be cast on
> the matter to be voted upon represented in person or by proxy shall
> constitute a quorum. A majority of the votes entitled to be cast on a matter
> to be voted upon by the members present or represented by proxy at a meeting
> at which a quorum is present shall be necessary for the adoption thereof
> unless a greater proportion is required by this Act, the articles of
> incorporation or the bylaws.[ 1977, c. 525, �13 (NEW) .]
> >
> > 2. Meeting with less than a quorum. The members present at a duly called
> or held meeting at which a quorum was once present may continue to do
> business at the meeting or at any adjournment thereof, notwithstanding the
> withdrawal of enough members to leave less than a quorum.[ 1977, c. 525,
> �13 (NEW) .]
> > http://www.maineleg islature. org/legis/ statutes/ 13-b/title13-
> Bsec605.html
> >
> > No matter how you wish to dismiss it, the Senate session held by Consul
> Fabius was legal. The attempt of some to withdraw after voting began made
> no difference under Maine's corporate laws. Your own attempt to call the
> Senate, on the other hand, did not meet quorum and was not called with
> proper auspices taken, and you are in violation of decreta augurum and
> decreta pontificum, which under the Constitution is also part of our laws.
> >
> > Your veto was overruled by the Tribuni Plebis, whether you wish to ignore
> that or not. [To this I can also add that the Constitution IV.A.7.d.1 "To
> call the Senate to order" refers back to the "Tribuni Plebis" in the plural,
> and no where does any laws prohibit the Tribuni Plebis joining together with
> a Consul to call the Senate to order. But the Constitution IV.A.7.c does,
> however, state that the Tribuni Plebis are "To be immune from intercessio
> pronounced by other magistrates." So you could not and cannot veto the
> Tribuni Plebis from calling the Senate, and therefore it is your veto that
> was illegal.]
> >
> > The majority of the Senate voted to appoint Censorius Cn. Equitius
> Marinus as Magister Populi et Dictator. It does not matter that you and a
> handful of individuals and non-citizens oppose the results, this was the
> legal outcome, of a legally called and legally held Senate session.
> >
> > The Constitution IV.B.1: "The dictator shall hold Imperium."
> >
> > The Constitution III.A.1 on the Comitia Curiata: "To invest elected and
> appointed magistrates with Imperium . . . without right of refusal
> individually or as a body."
> >
> > Cn. Equitius Marinus was lawfully appointed to become dictator and thus
> to hold imperium, and therefore the Comitia Curiata is required to invest
> him with imperium and may not constitutionally refuse to recognize his
> appointment. That is the law, Consuli, whether you and a minority of
> senators wish to place blinders to it on yourselves. But as the vote in the
> Senate overwhelming approved the appointment and the Tribuni Plebis have
> published their report making the appointment official, neither you or I,
> nor the Comitia Curiata, shall be able to avoid the appointment much longer.
> >
> > C. Tullius Valerianus had a constitutional duty, as do all the Lictores
> curiati, to post their witness statements. They cannot refuse to do so, not
> individually or as a comitia. As I am aware of the controversy and the
> unresolved situation as yet, I provided those who do not agree with the
> Senate's decision an option by which they might quietly abstain if they
> chose to do so. In that way they would not violate the letter of the law.
> Valerianus chose not to abide with the Constitution or his instructions,
> and went even further in haranguing another Lictrix because she had
> performed her constitutional duty. He did so on the Comitia Curiata list
> and was therefore dismissed from the list. His behavior shall be brought
> before the Collegium Pontificum in its session later this month, as will any
> other Lictores who openly violate their constitutional responsibility to
> post their witness statements; that is, those who would publicly refuse to
> do so. Valerianus remains a Lictor until the Collegium Pontificum decides
> otherwise, but that does not give him any right to encourgae others in the
> Comitia Curiata to violate their constitutional obligations and so I
> dismissed him from the comitia's list. As far as my treatment of a camillus
> and pontifex minor, I am reminded of Pontifex Maximus P. Licinius Crassus
> Dives and what was require of him towards the pontifex minor L. Cantilius.
> >
> > For five years there was an absent Pontifex Maximus who neglected his
> duties in spite of the pleas of his fellow Pontifices, the Senate, and
> Consules. Perhaps this was why some in Nova Roma have become complacent
> towards the Religio Romana in Nova Roma and why non-practitioners of the
> Religio think they impose upon it to remain silent as it was under the last
> years of Cassius. But as with my predecessor Licinius Dives, Nova Roma now
> has an active Pontifex Maximus to reassert the authority and privileges of
> our Quattuor Summa Collegia.
> >
> > Consuli, I have received a request from Augur Agricola that the matter of
> your violation of the decreta augura be taken before the Collegium
> Pontificum for a determination of impietate prudens dolo malo. I have been
> delaying such a request while you remain in office. However, I note that
> you have once again violated the decreta augura and the Senate rules by
> attempting to assemble the Senate without first having auspices taken on
> your behalf. And you were previously instructed not to take auspices on
> behalf of Nova Roma until such time as the Collegium Augurum was satisfied
> that you would take them properly. I remind you once again that the decreta
> of our Collegia are law in Nova Roma, as provided in the Constitution, and
> that magisterial edicta, being of lesser authority, may not conflict with a
> decreta augurum. Thus your call of the Senate by magisterial edictum,
> without auspices first being taken and in violation of the previous Decreta
> Augurum would be a clear violation of the Constitution, as well as Senate
> rules, and conceivably an abuse of your consular authority. Rightly should
> it be vetoed by the Tribuni Plebis, as should any further edicta you would
> issue based on an illegally called session, without a quorum present, and
> without proper auspicia taken. Proceeding further in defiance of Decreta
> Augura and Decreta Pontifica that clearly prohibit the call of the Senate
> without proper auspicia is not only a matter of impietas prudens dolo malo
> as stated in the Decretum Pontificum, but it is also a violation of the
> Constitution VI.A and the Lex Salicia Poenalis 21: Laesa Patriae since by
> ignoring the constitutional powers, privileges and rights of the sacerdotal
> Collegia is damaging to the religio and its institutions and infringes upon
> the religio Romana and its institutions to perform their legal functions
> within Nova Roma, and thereby also endangers the Res Publica. Your repeated
> violations of your duties as a consul in regard to the institutions of the
> Religio Romana is a serious matter. I shall no longer ignore them as you
> have tried to ignore the authority of the Collegia over matters of
> importance with regard to the Religio Romana.
> >
> > Now, the situation as I see it is this. Three Lictores curiati have
> already issued their witness statements publicly. More will be posted. A
> majority of the Lictores is not required, as the Comitia Curiata cannot
> refuse nor neglect to pass a Lex Curiata de Imperio under the Constituion
> III.A.1. As the presiding official of the Comitia Curiata I have the
> prerogative to delay issuing the Lex Curiata until such time as I feel
> enough Lictores Curiati have witnessed the appointment of Cn. Marinus as
> Magister Populi et Dictator. At any time during this period while the
> individual Lictores Curiati are witnessing the appointment, Censorius Cn.
> Marinus may take his oath of office. Then when the Lex Curiata de imperio
> is publicly announced he shall be the lawful Magister Populi et Dictator of
> Nova Roma. Then shall we leave it to Magister Populi Marinus to arbitrate
> these disputes.
> >
> > Vade in pace Deorum nostrorum
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- On Mon, 8/2/10, Publius Memmius Albucius <albucius_aoe@...>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: Publius Memmius Albucius <albucius_aoe@...>
> > Subject: Your "instructions" to the Lictores curiati
> > To: "Marcus Moravius Horatius Piscinus" <mhoratius@...>
> > Cc: nova-roma@yahoogroups.com, "M. Corva Gaudialis" <aerdensrw@...>,
> "Caeso Fabius Quintilianus" <christer.edling@...>, "Fabius Buteo
> Modianus" <tau.athanasios@...>, "Cnaeus Cornelius Lentulus" <
> cn_corn_lent@...>, "Palladius" <bcatfd@...>, "Gnaeus
> Equitius Marinus" <gawne@...>, canadaoccidentalis@...,
> c.curius@..., "Gaius Petronius Dexter" <jfarnoud94@...>,
> "Cornelius Felix Sulla" <robert.woolwine@...>, "Livia Plauta" <
> livia.plauta@...>, byzandroid@..., magisterbrodd@..., "M.
> Arminius Maior" <marminius@...>, "Q. Caecilius Metellus" <
> postumianus@...>, "Q. Fabius Maximus" <qfabiusmaxmi@...>,
> rory12001@..., "Ullerius Venator" <famila.ulleria.venii@...>,
> teleriferchnyfain@..., marcus@...,
> nrcomitiacuriata@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Monday, August 2, 2010, 6:48 PM
> >
> >
> > Pontifico maximo Moravio s.d.
> >
> > I have been requested to intervene in this matter, whose I was not aware,
> until now, of the details. I must say that I am discovering them, as the
> letter below that you sent to Valerianus lictor, with surprise, deception
> and, I cannot hide it, a real irritation.
> >
> > You seem having taken no account of my letter of last July 11th, that you
> will find again at the end of this letter.
> >
> > In addition, beside behaving with a lictor curiatus as if he was one of
> your personal slaves - and I am sure that you would better treat your
> domestic staff - you brought to him, in order to make pressure on him,
> inexact information that a less patient observer than I am may may say that
> they are... just lies.
> > You perfectly know that Hon. Marinus has not been appointed dictator for
> I have legally vetoed the session where in this blitz-decision was
> submitted, and for its convening did not respected our Constitution. As a
> consequence, there exists no legal decision that a lictor or any officer or
> magistrate would be obliged, except if he intends to take part to a coup
> d'etat, applying and respecting. In addition, every lictor who would
> currently refuse to defer to this inconstitutional "decision" just honors
> his/her name, her/his office and the Republic.
> >
> > I must here underline that, if the lictors are effectively appointed by
> the Collegium Pontificum, they cannot be thus dismissed by you from the
> Comitia curiata, if and when you decide, just because their individual or
> political positions are not conform to your own political line.
> >
> > I ask you, for the second and last time, and independantly of your other
> positions, to change your behavior towards our lictors curiati and to come
> back to the observation of the Law.
> >
> > Concerning C. Tullius Valerianus, and for the sole fact he just defended
> the legality of our institutions, be informed that I will consider with the
> utmost attention the measures that you are intending to take or propose the
> Collegium Pontificum. I wish that your decision be the wise one, for I do
> not wish being obliged intervening, what I constantly avoided doing since
> last January, in the affairs of our Collegia.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > @
> > P. Memmius Albucius cos.
> > @
> >
> > ______________Kal.
> Aug._____________________________________________________________________________________________________
> > @
> > M. Moravius Piscinus C. Tullio Valeriano dicit:
> >
> > You have received your instructions as have all other Lictores curiati.
> The appointment of Cn. Marinus was legally approved by the majority of the
> Senate in a vote of 16 to 1, posted by the Tribunus Plebis, and acknowledged
> by both consuls as so reported. The Constitution does not give any
> individual Lictor or the Comitia Curiata as a whole to depart from the
> decision of the Senate.
> >
> > My instructions were that if you disagreed with the decision of the
> Senate that you should remain silent. As you have done otherwise and have
> attempted to encourage other Lictores to disobey their constitutional
> duties, you are dismissed from the Comitia Curiata and your appointment as a
> Lictor shall be reviewed by the Collegium Pontificum at its next session.
> > @
> >
> > ______________________________a.d. Idus Quint. (July
> 11)____________________________________________________________________________
> >
> > Moravio Pontifico maximo s.d.
> >
> > I am writing to you about your last address (below) to the lictors of our
> Comitia curiata. Even if the matter itself is now behind us, I feel obliged,
> once again, as consul, to remind our Law. For your words below exceed the
> normal legal relation which should exist between the comitia and yourself.
> >
> > The Comitia curiata is not, as you affirm, a 'religious institution'. It
> is a public assembly of our Republic, which is recognized as such by our
> Constitution. The fact that the lictors curiati be appointed by the
> Collegium Pontificum, and that the Comitia be called to order by the PM does
> not transform it in some group "under the authority of the Collegium
> Pontificum" and would be required to apply its rulings, as simple scribes
> would.
> >
> > As well, the members of the Comitia hold their first duties, as every
> member of our Republic constitutional bodies, towards the comitia as a whole
> and our Republic, and are not, as you write it, "obliged to abide with
> decreta issued by the Quattor Summa Collegia", a fortiori when those decreta
> are unconstitional.
> >
> > Again, you cannot "instruct" the members of any comitia: the lictors
> curiati are not the soldiers of a Novaroman legion placed under the command
> of the pontifex maximus, how ever be his military skills.
> >
> > Things work here as like in every (democratic) assembly: you are to
> convene, as pontifex maximus, the comitia, whose members vote as responsible
> adults and as they see fit. Naturally, you may campaign to try to influence
> their vote. No law forbids this.
> >
> > On the fact that "the Collegium Augurum has declared the praetores
> suffecti in vitio creati. As such, (you) will not call the Comitia Curiata
> to assemble against the decretum augurum.", I cannot but take notice of your
> intention.
> >
> > Your sentence "If you cannot abide with the decreta of our Collegia, then
> you ought to resign now. Also, violations of instructions or decreta are
> subject to a determination by the Collegium Pontificum." sounds more ! like
> a blackmail and an illegal pressure on the lictors, and based, in addition,
> on the violation of the constitution that I have stated in another
> circumstance. Such argument is not conform to the dignitas of your office,
> Pontifex Maxime, and I suggest that you come back to a behavior more conform
> with the laws of our Republic and our Roman values and virtues.
> >
> > Vale respectfully Pontifex Maximus,
> >
> >
> > Albucius cos.
> >
> >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> > M. Moravius Piscinus Pontifex Maximus lictoribus s. p. d.
> >
> > Let me make some things clear right now. The Constitution states:
> >
> > III. Comitia
> >
> > A. The comitia curiata (Assembly of Curiae) shall be made up of thirty
> lictores curiati (lictors of the curia), appointed to their positions by the
> collegium pontificum (college of pontiffs). It shall be called to order by
> the Pontifex Maximus, and the collegium pontificum shall set the rules by
> which the comitia curiata shall operate internally.
> >
> > The Comitia Curiata is a religious institution. It is solely under the
> authority of the Collegium Pontificum. It may only be called to assemble by
> the Pontifex Maximus. No lictor may act alone, and no witness statements
> have any validity without the Comitia Curiata first being called into
> session.
> >
> > As a religious institution, members of the Curiata, beginning with the
> Pontifex Maximus, and then all lictores curiati appointed by the Collegium
> Pontificum, are obliged to abide with decreta issued by the Quattor Summa
> Collegia. On the other hand, under the Constitution IV.A.9 lictores curiati
> are specifically not magistrates and are not, therefore, under the authority
> of any magisterial edicta. A magisterial edictum cannot be issued to
> instruct the Comitia Curiata or the lictores curiati on their duties. Only
> the Collegium Pontificum has constitutional authority over the procedures of
> the Comitia Curiata.
> >
> > The Collegium Augurum has declared the praetores suffecti in vitio
> creati. As such, I will not call the Comitia Curiata to assemble against the
> decretum augurum.
> >
> > All lictores curiati are instructed *not* to issue witness statements
> until and unless the Pontifex Maximus first calls the Comitia Curiata into
> seesion and so instructs the lictores curiati to witness the proper election
> of magistrates.
> >
> > If you cannot abide with the decreta of our Collegia, then you ought to
> resign now. Also, violations of instructions or decreta are subject to a
> determination by the Collegium Pontificum.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79107 From: Diana Octavia Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: Your "instructions" to the Lictores curiati
Instead of dragging this discussion on and on and on, why don't we just
scrap this Senate session altogether and do it over-- legally.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79109 From: Cato Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: Your "instructions" to the Lictores curiati
Cato Piscino sal.

And here, once again, you show your argument's weakness:

"A majority of the votes entitled to be cast on a matter to be voted upon by the
members present or represented by proxy at a meeting at which a quorum is
present shall be necessary for the adoption thereof UNLESS A GREATER PROPORTION
IS REQUIRED BY this Act, the articles of incorporation or THE BYLAWS." (my
emphasis)

From the senatus consultum on defining a quorum:

"II. When official Senate business is being conducted via electronic mail (as
outlined in paragraph IV.A. of the Senatus Consultum De Ratione Senatus), at
least two-thirds of the members of the Senate must have access to the email list
in question in order to constitute a quorum. The two-thirds requirement shall
be calculated so as to retain fractions; i.e., if 13.33 Senators are required to
establish a forum, 13 Senators shall not be adequate to do so, but 14 shall be."

And the Senate, under the Constitution, has this authority:

"The Senate may, by Senatus consultum, enact rules governing its own internal
procedures (such Senatus consulta may not be overruled by laws passed in the
comitia)." (Const. N.R. V.F)

NOT a "majority". Two thirds. By our own law, and supported by the governing
act in the laws of the United States under which we are incorporated.

According to the law, the correct listing of the actions of senators during the
time in question is as follows:

The following XIV Senators cast their votes on time:

*KFBQ: K. Fabius Buteo Quintilianus, Presiding Magistrate
*ATS: A. Tullia Scholastica
*CCS: C. Curius Saturninus
*CnEM: Cn. Equitius Marinus
*EmCF: Em. Curia Finnica
*FrAC: Fr. Apulus Caesar
*KFBM: K. Fabius Buteo Modianus
*MAM: M. Arminius Maior
*MCC: M. Curiatius Complutensis
*MHM: M. Hortensia Maior
*MIP: M. Iulius Perusianus
*MIS: M. Iulius Severus
*MLA: M. Lucretius Agricola
*MMPH: M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus

The following XV Senatores did not vote:

*TIS: T. Iulius Sabinus
*TiGP.: Ti. Galerius Paulinus
*CEC: C. Equitius Cato
*QSP: Q. Suetonius Paulinus
*CPL: C. Popillius Laenas
*CFD: C. Flavius Diocletianus
*CMM: C. Marius Merullus
*CnIC: Cn. Iulius Caesar
*CVP: C. Vipsanius Agrippa
*DIPI: Dec. Iunius Palladius Invictus
*FlGA: Fl. Galerius Aurelianus
*LCSF: L. Cornelius Sulla Felix
*MMA M. Minucius Audens
*PMA: P. Memmius Albucius
*QFM: Q. Fabius Maximus

There are 29 senators. The law requires 20 of them to be present to constitute quorum. There were only 14 voting, and even if you count those simply "absent", the official, legal (in writing to the co-secretary of the corporation) withdrawals leaves only 18.

In the end, of course, the call was vetoed, so the "votes" did not constitute any official act of the Senate to begin with.


Vale,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79110 From: gualterus_graecus Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: PETITIO ACTIONIS
Salvete,

This particular exchange seems to be going nowhere and getting a bit too personal. Might I suggest that we change the topic? :)

Valete,

Gualterus
praetorian Quaestor

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robert Woolwine <robert.woolwine@...> wrote:
>
> Well Livia,
>
> My first sentence, while written in a rush since I was working at the time
> is still rather understandable.
>
> Yes you need to spell out to me I guess who you end up treating your guests.
>
>
> So, what I am saying is Yes, you need to spell it out to me, I guess because
> your words seem to indicate how you treat your own guests.
>
> Since, you have no bases of knowledge how I treat my own house guests. I
> just assumed that you are basing the baseless accusation on your own
> personal experience.
>
> Vale,
>
> Sulla
>
> On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 8:17 AM, L. Livia Plauta <livia.plauta@...>wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Salve Sulla,
> > I'm sorry, but your first sentence is too ungrammatical for me to
> > understand
> > it. As for the rest, I can only guess you have weird ideas about mating
> > rituals. Well, to each his own.
> >
> > Vale,
> > Livia
> >
> >
> > > Ave!
> > >
> > > Yes you need to spell out to me I guess who you end up treating your
> > > guests. Because in my world that would get someone arrested for unlawful
> > > imprisonment and torture. But I guess in your part of the world that is
> > > just a possible mating ritual for you?
> > >
> > > Vale,
> > >
> > > Sulla
> > >
> > > On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 1:26 PM, L. Livia Plauta
> > > <livia.plauta@... <livia.plauta%40gmail.com>>wrote:
> > >
> > >> Salve Sulla,
> > >> when living together with other people, you have several ways to coerce
> > >> them
> > >> to do things. For example you could lock the bathroom door and coerce
> > >> them
> > >> to use the other bathroom, or wait until you unlock it, or whatever. Or
> > >> you
> > >> could play loud music and coerce them to listen to it or use earplugs.
> > >> Do I really have to spell out for you something which is so obvious?
> > >>
> > >> Vale,
> > >> Livia
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> > Yo Livia,
> > >> >
> > >> > How do you know I am able to do that? And how are Tink and Metellus
> > >> > able
> > >> > to
> > >> > do that? Physically. Come on Livia you opened your trap..explain it
> > >> > or
> > >> I
> > >> > will file charges against you myself! for CALVMINAE
> > >> >
> > >> > Vale,
> > >> >
> > >> > Sulla
> > >> >
> > >> > On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 8:34 AM, L. Livia Plauta
> > >> > <livia.plauta@... <livia.plauta%40gmail.com>>wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Salve Cato,
> > >> >> it is ridiculous to think that Piscinus is able to *coerce* anyone in
> > >> >> Nova
> > >> >> Roma to do anything.
> > >> >> Just how do you think he'd coerce anybody? By writing a lot of
> > emails?
> > >> >> As far as I know only Sulla and the people who live with him would be
> > >> >> able
> > >> >> to physically coerce each other to do something, since they are
> > within
> > >> >> reach
> > >> >> of each other.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> For anyone else, it's ridiculous to postulate it.
> > >> >> Or do you think Piscinus has a collection of voodoo dolls, and at
> > >> >> night
> > >> >> he
> > >> >> performs rituals to magically coerce people to do his will? Come on!
> > >> >>
> > >> >> L. Livia Plauta
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >> >> From: "Cato" <catoinnyc@>
> > >> >> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com><Nova-Roma%
> > 40yahoogroups.com>>
> > >> >> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 2:03 AM
> > >> >> Subject: [Nova-Roma] PETITIO ACTIONIS
> > >> >>
> > >> >> C. Equitius Cato P. Memmio Albucio consule et in loco praetoris sal.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> I, Gaius Equitius Cato, citizen, former praetor and current senator
> > of
> > >> >> the
> > >> >> Republic of Nova Roma and member of the Board of Directors of Nova
> > >> >> Roma,
> > >> >> Inc., wish to lodge formal charges against M. Moravius Piscinus, to
> > >> >> wit:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> 1. FALSUM: that he has coerced members of the comitia curiata to act
> > >> >> in
> > >> a
> > >> >> way inimical to their best interests (lex Salicia poenalis, pars
> > >> >> altera
> > >> >> 16).
> > >> >> He has called the comitia curiata to witness the appointment of a
> > >> >> dictator
> > >> >> despite the fact that no such appointment has been made; despite the
> > >> fact
> > >> >> that the supposed nominee for the dictatorship has refused to accept
> > >> >> the
> > >> >> nomination until a legally-convened Senate has voted to act upon his
> > >> >> nomination; despite the fact that at least two lictors have stated
> > >> >> publicly,
> > >> >> clearly and unequivocally their legal reasons for not wishing to
> > break
> > >> >> the
> > >> >> law of Nova Roma; he has attempted to force members of the comitia
> > >> >> curiata
> > >> >> to break the law and make themselves liable to charges under Nova
> > >> >> Roman
> > >> >> law;
> > >> >> he has dismissed at least one lictor for refusing to break the law
> > per
> > >> >> his
> > >> >> direct instructions.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> 2. LAESA PATRIAE: he has overtly acted to damage the institutions of
> > >> >> the
> > >> >> Respublica, including the consulate, the Senate and the comitia
> > >> >> curiata;
> > >> >> he
> > >> >>
> > >> >> has acted in such a way as to endanger the ability of the republic or
> > >> its
> > >> >> institutions to perform its legal functions including the consulate,
> > >> >> the
> > >> >> Senate and the comitia curiata; he has violated the Constitution of
> > >> >> Nova
> > >> >> Roma and therefore the laws of the Respublica and the laws of the
> > >> >> United
> > >> >> States under which Nova Roma, Inc. are incorporated, opening up the
> > >> >> possibility of macronational legal activity against the Respublica
> > >> >> (loc.cit.
> > >> >> 21).
> > >> >>
> > >> >> 3. CONTUMELIA PIETATE: he is attempting to incite hatred, despite or
> > >> >> enmity
> > >> >>
> > >> >> towards a person or group on the basis of the religious beliefs or
> > >> >> practices
> > >> >> of that person or group by claiming that non-practitioners are the
> > >> >> enemy
> > >> >> of
> > >> >>
> > >> >> the Respublica and the source of its internal challenges (loc.cit.
> > >> >> 18).
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Vale,
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Gaius Equitius Cato
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > ------------------------------------
> > >> >
> > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ------------------------------------
> > >>
> > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79111 From: C.Maria Caeca Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: To our Sarmatians Cives, please ...
C. Maria Caeca omnibus in foro S. P. D.

I do realize how busy you all are, but I would very much appreciate it if
someone in the Ukraine would take just a minute and let us know that our
Penonians got there with no problems?

Gratias Tibi Ago,

CMC (who hasn't read everything, so might have just embarrassed herself by
being impatient.)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79112 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: Your "instructions" to the Lictores curiati
Gaius Tullius Valerianus Piscino S.D.

You wrote: Cn. Equitius Marinus was lawfully appointed to become dictator
> and thus to hold imperium, and therefore the Comitia Curiata is required to
> invest him with imperium and may not constitutionally refuse to recognize
> his appointment. That is the law, Consuli, whether you and a minority of
> senators wish to place blinders to it on yourselves. But as the vote in the
> Senate overwhelming approved the appointment and the Tribuni Plebis have
> published their report making the appointment official, neither you or I,
> nor the Comitia Curiata, shall be able to avoid the appointment much longer.
>
>
Stop trying to drag Marinus down with you! With your plots exposed, your
crimes being brought into the light, your coup has failed. All know this,
the Senate sees this, the people see this, Cn. Equitius Marinus above all
sees it. Your only possible motives for continuing in this reckless
disregard for law, custom, and decency is either a mad desire to cling to
the shreds of your plot, or a desire to destroy as much of the Republic as
you can as you go down. Nova Roma will not permit this. We shall survive
your self-destruction.

For five years there was an absent Pontifex Maximus who neglected his duties
> in spite of the pleas of his fellow Pontifices, the Senate, and Consules.
> Perhaps this was why some in Nova Roma have become complacent towards the
> Religio Romana in Nova Roma and why non-practitioners of the Religio think
> they impose upon it to remain silent as it was under the last years of
> Cassius. But as with my predecessor Licinius Dives, Nova Roma now has an
> active Pontifex Maximus to reassert the authority and privileges of our
> Quattuor Summa Collegia.
>
When you were allowed to assume the role of Pontifex Maximus Pro Tempore, it
was because the Collegium Pontificum hoped that a more active PM would be
good for Nova Roma. But they were unaware that your idea of "activity" was
plotting coups and the desecration of our Republic. And with you and your
supporters calling for jihad against non-practicioners of our sacred *cultus,
*you not only shame us, but act illegally yet again.

At any time during this period while the individual Lictores Curiati are
> witnessing the appointment, Censorius Cn. Marinus may take his oath of
> office. Then when the Lex Curiata de imperio is publicly announced he shall
> be the lawful Magister Populi et Dictator of Nova Roma. Then shall we leave
> it to Magister Populi Marinus to arbitrate these disputes.
>
He has already given his answer. He will not be dragged into your crime. He
is willing to come to the aid of the Republic as dictator, but he will not
do so illegally, dishonorably, nor even under a cloud of suspicion. When you
were trying to pick a dupe, you should have chosen more carefully - for you
chose a man of honor who will not be your puppet.

How has the Collegium Pontificum allowed this to continue? How have they not
yet removed the most divisive and destructive man in Nova Roma from the
position of Pontifex Maximus Pro Tempore? How long will they continue to
allow Piscinus to drag the *cultus deorum *and the Republic through the
muck? It shames the *cultus deorum* and it shames Nova Roma to have such a
person representing us in any capacity, let alone the holy office!

Vale!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79113 From: C.Maria Caeca Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: Soldier speech acts in Greek and Roman literature and society
I'd like to see this, if I could, please.

CMC

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79114 From: C.Maria Caeca Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: Remembering the Roman Republic, A.D. 68--117
This sounds interesting, if you would, thanks! C

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79115 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-08-03
Subject: Re: To our Sarmatians Cives, please ...
M. Hortensia C. Mariae spd;
since only Corvus posts and his wedding is approaching plus all the complications, I don't think it's really reasonable.
Agricola left yesterday, I spoke with him; he is the epitone of organization and has everyone's phone number so don't worry. He also told me he wouldn't be online. So my suggestion is just to enjoy, forget worrying and expect great pictures:)
optime vale
Maior

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "C.Maria Caeca" <c.mariacaeca@...> wrote:
>
> C. Maria Caeca omnibus in foro S. P. D.
>
> I do realize how busy you all are, but I would very much appreciate it if
> someone in the Ukraine would take just a minute and let us know that our
> Penonians got there with no problems?
>
> Gratias Tibi Ago,
>
> CMC (who hasn't read everything, so might have just embarrassed herself by
> being impatient.)
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79116 From: Cato Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: PETITIO ACTIONIS - LAESA PATRIAE
C. Equitius Cato senatore P. Memmio Albucio consule omnibusque in foro SPD


I, Gaius Equitius Cato, announce my intention to the consul, acting on behalf of the vacant praetura, to bring the charge of LAESA PATRIAE against M. Moravius Piscinus.

He has overtly acted to damage the institutions of the
Respublica, including the consulate, the Senate and the comitia curiata; he has acted in such a way as to endanger the ability of the republic or its institutions to perform its legal functions including the consulate, the Senate and the comitia curiata; he has violated the Constitution of Nova Roma and therefore the laws of the Respublica and the laws of the United States under which Nova Roma, Inc. are incorporated, opening up the possibility of macronational legal activity against the Respublica.

By attempting to ignore a consular veto - and encouraging others to do so - he has explicitly attacked the legal authority granted by the Constitution to the functions of the office of the consul, whose imperium is greater than any other magistrate in the Respublica.

By repeatedly insisting upon the recognition of a vetoed call for the Senate to convene contrary to the Constitution and attempting to enforce a series of actions taken in the Senate in contradiction to that veto, he has explicitly attacked the authority of the Senate to function under its own internal rules and its Constitutional obligations.

By repeatedly insisting upon the recognition by the comitia curiata of a "dictator" or "magister populi", he has explicitly attacked the Constitutional functions and obligations of the comitia curiata in his attempt to have a senator - neither an elected nor appointed magistrate - invested with imperium contrary to the laws of the Respublica.

According to the law of the Respublica, LAESA PATRIAE is defined in part as:

"any overt act by a citizen which a reasonable person would conclude to be damaging or defamatory to the republic, its religio, or its institutions, including acts which may expose the republic, its religio, or its institutions to macronational legal action, if such act is not legally authorised by the republic or its agents, and/or acts which endanger the ability of the republic, its religion, or its institutions to perform its legal functions." - lex Salicia poenalis, pars altera 21.1

By the definition of our law, Moravius Piscinus has committed acts of LAESA PATRIAE.

Vale,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79117 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: Witnessing appointment
C. Petronius M. Maiori s.p.d.,

> I, M. Hortensia Maior, as a Lictrix of Nova Roma, hereby witness the
> appointment of Gnaeus Equitius Marinus as Magister Populi et Dictator of Nova Roma. As a member of the Comitia Curiata I wish him good fortune in his office and in his work on behalf of the Religio Romana.

Here, your English version is not correct.

> Ego, M. Hortensia Maior, lictrix curiata Novae Romae testificor Cn. Equitium Marinum Magistrum Populi et Dictatorem Novae Romae creari. Lictrix Comitiorum Curiatorum ei opto ut pro religione Romana felicissime officio munereque suo fungatur

Your Latin version seems correct, now. But, can you explain, o lictrix curiata, what are differences between the two titles:
1- Dictator
2- Magister Populi.

Why Cn. Equitius Marinus has two titles whith one no Constitutional and made up by Cicero in his books about the Laws? Are you the witness of a parody with pompous and theatre titles? Why involve you Gods in that parody?

And how can you take a witnessing as lictrix curiata when a judgement by court law make you off all republican and religious positions untill Jan. 1st 2764?

I would like you more respectuous of the Nova Roman laws, Constitution and citizens.

Optime vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Tribunus Plebis Arcoiali scribebat
Pridie Nonas Sextiles P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79118 From: Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Been away...
Salvete Omnes...

I have been away for several days visiting with family and seeing (and
holding) my great nephew for the very first time and have not waded
through the Nova Roma posts as of yet.

Has Marinus gone against the Honor I believe he held and accepted the
so-called "Dictatorship?"

in inquisitiveness - Venii
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79119 From: Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: MASTER of the People???
I think not.

Marinus, you ought be ashamed.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79120 From: Cato Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: MASTER of the People???
Cato Ullerio Venatori sal.

No, Marinus has not done anything; his last statement in this Forum was that he will not accept any title unless it comes from a legally-convened Senate. So he remains as he was, a senator.

Piscinus, trying his hardest to play at being "kingmaker", is still insisting that Marinus is "dictator" and "magister populi" in spite of Marinus' outright refusal; Piscinus is also still encouraging the lictors to bear "witness" to something that has not happened, which - remarkably - a few have done, most notably Maior, who can't seem to get her Latin and her English grammars correct simultaneously.

Piscinus also attempted to summarily, unilaterally "dismiss" a lictor (Valerianus) for refusing to break the law; he was quickly shown not to have the authority to do so, though whether or not that has sunk in is in question.

So, all in all, we have the picture of a mature adult walking forward with a small, loud child running around him repeatedly pulling on his toga shouting, "Say you're the king! Say you're the king!" and the adult saying, "Leave me alone."

Vale,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79121 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Pridie Nonae Sextiliae: Nuptiae - Roman forms of marriage
M. Moravius Piscinus Pontifex Maximus Quiritibus, cultoribus Deorum et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit: Di vos salvam et servatam volunt.

Hodie est die pristine Nonas Sextilias; haec dies comitialis est:

NUPTIAE

So saying, she set the love-lit heart ablaze,
Made bold the wavering mind, and banished shame.
First they approach the shrines, and pardon seek
Amid the altars, duly chosen ewes to Ceres . . .
Juno before all, mistress of wedlock.
~Virgil Aeneid IV.53-55.

"Why do they, as they conduct the bride to her home, bid her say, 'Where you are Gaius, there am I Gaia.?' Is her entrance into the house upon fixed terms, as it were, at once to share everything and to control jointly the household, and is the meaning, then, 'Wherever you are lord and master, there am I lady and mistress?' These names are in common use also in other connections, just as jurists speak of Gaius Seius and Lucius Titius, and philosophers of Dion and Theon. Or do they use these names because Gaia Caecilia, consort of one of Tarquin's sons, a fair and virtuous woman, whose statue in bronze stands in the temple of Sanctus? And both her sandals and her spindle were, in ancient days, dedicated there as tokens of her love of home and of her industry respectively." ~ Plutarch, Roman Questions 30


Marriage in ancient Rome took various forms. Some were no more than a contractual arrangement without ceremony, while a confarreatio involved a solemn ritual. An early form of Roman marriage, known as usus, involved the transfer of a father's authority (manus) over a woman to her husband and did not require any ceremony. Manus is an authority to manage property, different from the potestas that included a father's power of life or death over his children (ius vitae necisque). Through a father's potestas he could order a son or daughter to marry. It was not unusual for a girl of around age sixteen to be given in her first marriage to a man in his late twenties or early thirties. One example has, "Ennia Fructuosa . . . took the name wife at age fifteen (CIL 8.2756)." In a usus the woman was simply given by her father to a man quite literally "to use," although the arrangement was usually made with the woman's consent. All that was required from the husband was a statement of honorable intent to marry (adfectus maritalis) and the man and woman would then cohabit. After a full year of cohabitation the couple were considered married, where as a woman might end the arrangement at any time during that first year by remaining away from her husband for three consecutive nights. Allowing that the wife remained for a full year, the couple would then be married, but technically the father's manus did not transfer to the husband until the death of the wife's father. An arrangement of usus involved the payment of a "bride's price" by her future husband. This was the same as buying the right to use property of another man and what ceremony attended such arrangements was that used for any contractual arrangement. As in any contract the Gods were called to witness. If the husband broke the contract, divorcing his wife, he was expected to sacrifice to Tellus.

The coemptio formalized the arrangements of a usus. This form of Roman marriage involved a written agreement on tabula legitima. As in a usus, the agreement was made between those who held potestas over the bride and groom. It involved a legal contract that provided for the dowry and other arrangements. Around the signing of the agreement a ceremony grew, since it involved making a sacrifice to the Gods called to witness, and auspices were taken to see if the Gods approved of the arrangement. The bride would be called forward to give her formal consent. The groom would have to purchase his bride, paying for the transfer of the manus from her father. This nummus usus, or bride's price, later became a token payment of a single copper coin to the bride's father. A coemptio required five witnesses to sign the agreement before it could be considered a legal contract and a legitimate marriage. Coemptio became a common form of marriage ceremony and was the form of marriage associated with Ceres.

A still more formal form of marriage was the confarreatio, a ceremony that was associated with Juno. This ceremony required the presence of ten witnesses, including the Pontifex Maximus, flamen Dialis and his wife, the flamenica Dialis. Unlike other forms of Roman marriage a confarreatio was conducted as a sacred rite by which a husband and wife were placed into a union for all time. "Among religious rites, there is none more sacred (Pliny Hist. Nat. 18.10)." Divorce was generally not permitted from a confarreatio, due to its sacred nature. Servius, commenting on Virgil's Aeneid, tries to distinguish between the union of Aeneas and Dido from a confarreatio where "it is unlawful to willingly separate." The confarreatio, Servius says, "is superior and certainly extended to posterity." Even in the death of one spouse, the bond of a confarreatio was considered to remain. Later under the Empire there did develop a form of divorce from a confarreatio, called a diffarreatio, of which little is known. In a confarreatio part of the ceremony involved the sharing of a special spelt cake. In a diffarreatio another spelt cake was made and then the husband and wife would cast it aside in sight of a special sacerdos confarreationum et diffarreationum (CIL 10.6662). However, for the most part, it was said, "They shall ever after be intermingled like the abundant clouds and by this (confarreatio) either be in shame or in marriage (Serv. Ad Aen. 4.339)."


AUC 537 / 216 BCE: Hannibal frustrated by Roman maneuvers following Cannae

"After taking over Capua, and making another fruitless appeal to the hopes and fears of Neapolis, Hannibal marched into the territory of Nola. He did not at once treat it in a hostile manner as he was not without hope that the citizens would make a voluntary surrender, but if they delayed, he intended to leave nothing undone which could cause them suffering or terror. The senate, especially its leading members, were faithful supporters of the Roman alliance, the populace as usual were all in favour of revolting to Hannibal; they conjured up the prospect of ravaged fields and a siege with all its hardships and indignities; nor were there wanting men who were actively instigating a revolt. The senate were afraid that if they openly opposed the agitation they would not be able to withstand the popular excitement, and they found a means of putting off the evil day by pretending to go with the mob. They represented that they were in favour of revolting to Hannibal, but nothing was settled as to the conditions on which they were to enter into a new treaty and alliance. Having thus gained time, they sent delegates in great haste to Marcellus Claudius the praetor, who was with his army at Casilinum, to inform him of the critical position of Nola, how their territory was in Hannibal's hand, and the city would be in the possession of the Carthaginians unless it received succour. and how the senate, by telling the populace that they might revolt when they pleased. had made them less in a hurry to do so. Marcellus thanked the delegates and told them to adhere to the same policy and postpone matters till he arrived. He then left Casilinum for Caiatia and from there he marched across the Vulturnus, through the districts of Saticula and Trebia, over the hills above Suessula, and so arrived at Nola.

"On the approach of the Roman praetor the Carthaginian evacuated the territory of Nola and marched down to the coast close to Neapolis, as he was anxious to secure a seaport town to which there might be a safe passage for ships coming from Africa. When, however, he learnt that Neapolis was held by a Roman officer, M. Junius Silanus, who had been invited by the Neapolitans, he left Naples, as he had left Nola, and went to Nuceria. He spent some time in investing the place, often attacking it, and often making tempting proposals to the chief men of the place and to the leaders of the populace, but all to no purpose. At last famine did its work, and he received the submission of the town, the inhabitants being allowed to depart without arms and with one garment apiece. Then, to keep up his character of being friendly to all the Italian nationalities except the Romans, he held out honours and rewards to those who consented to remain in his service. Not a single man was tempted by the prospect; they all dispersed, wherever they had friends, or wherever each man's fancy led him, amongst the cities of Campania, mainly Nola and Neapolis." ~ Titus Livius 23.14-15


Today's thought is from Epictetus, Enchiridion 8:

"Demand not that events should happen as you wish; but wish them to happen as they do happen, and you will go on well."


Visit: Religio_Romana_Cultorum_Deorum-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79122 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: MAGISTER POPULI
M. Moravius P. Venatori s. p. d.

Magister Populi is the proper and correct name for 'dictator.' It goes back, actually, to Servius Tullius, who did not take the title of Rex, depicting himself instead as a champion of the people (in the City) rather than a king among the large land owners of the surrounding Roman territority. When the kings were expelled and the title of 'rex' took on a hated connotation, they reverted to this title of magister populi when the highest authority in the state was invested in one man.

'Dictator' was first used when Sulla rebelled against the Senate and the City to usurp power. To avoid both titles Pompeius Magnas was declared consul without a colleague, and then 'dictator' was reintroduced with Caesar. The title 'dictator' thus gained as much a negative connotation with Romans as it has for us today. And 'dictator' is not really the term used during most of the Republic.



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator <famila.ulleria.venii@...> wrote:
>
> I think not.
>
> Marinus, you ought be ashamed.
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79123 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: Senate Rules and State law on quorums
Catone

Do you ever bother to actually read what you post? State law gives precedence to the Senate Rules for determining what is or is not a quorum. To be counted in the quorum all that has to be shown is that 2/3 of the senators had access to the list, and not that they voted. READ the Senate Rules. The fact that some, like Albucius, posted during the session, even though he did not 'participate' during the session, showed that he had access and thus counts towards the quorum. The fact that you, Galerius and Sabinus 'withdrew' your votes during the session shows that each of you had access during the session, along with Suetonius and Fabius Maximus, and thus counted towards the quorum. Palladius never posted, never voted, thus it could be said that he did not count towards a quorum since it cannot be demonstrated that he had access, even though he was subscribed at the time.

Those who posted, and thus had access, were:

*KFBQ: K. Fabius Buteo Quintilianus, Presiding Magistrate
> *ATS: A. Tullia Scholastica
> *CCS: C. Curius Saturninus
> *CnEM: Cn. Equitius Marinus
> *EmCF: Em. Curia Finnica
> *FrAC: Fr. Apulus Caesar
> *KFBM: K. Fabius Buteo Modianus
> *MAM: M. Arminius Maior
> *MCC: M. Curiatius Complutensis
> *MHM: M. Hortensia Maior
> *MIP: M. Iulius Perusianus
> *MIS: M. Iulius Severus
> *MLA: M. Lucretius Agricola
> *MMPH: M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus
> *TIS: T. Iulius Sabinus
> *TiGP.: Ti. Galerius Paulinus
> *CEC: C. Equitius Cato
> *QSP: Q. Suetonius Paulinus
> *CPL: C. Popillius Laenas
> *PMA: P. Memmius Albucius
> *QFM: Q. Fabius Maximus

Further, both Audens and Aurelianus are on extended leave and do not count towards the total Senate in calculating a quorum. Thus of the 27 senators who could have access, it can be demonstrated that 21 were present during the session. That is 7/9 or 78% present.

In contrast, the session called by Albucius during 26 July to 1 Aug. had only 16 senators post of 27, therefore being only 59% and thus falling short of the 2/3 required for a quorum.

Appointment of a dictator requires only a majority of those present when a quorum is met, as did occur. And an SCU also only requires a majority of those present when a quorum is met, but Albucius did not attain a quorum.

ERGO: Marinus is Magister Popli designatus and Dictator by appointment with approval of the majority of the Senate attending, and Albucius' SCU's have failed due to the lack of a quorum.



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> Cato Piscino sal.
>
> And here, once again, you show your argument's weakness:
>
> "A majority of the votes entitled to be cast on a matter to be voted upon by the
> members present or represented by proxy at a meeting at which a quorum is
> present shall be necessary for the adoption thereof UNLESS A GREATER PROPORTION
> IS REQUIRED BY this Act, the articles of incorporation or THE BYLAWS." (my
> emphasis)
>
> From the senatus consultum on defining a quorum:
>
> "II. When official Senate business is being conducted via electronic mail (as
> outlined in paragraph IV.A. of the Senatus Consultum De Ratione Senatus), at
> least two-thirds of the members of the Senate must have access to the email list
> in question in order to constitute a quorum. The two-thirds requirement shall
> be calculated so as to retain fractions; i.e., if 13.33 Senators are required to
> establish a forum, 13 Senators shall not be adequate to do so, but 14 shall be."
>
> And the Senate, under the Constitution, has this authority:
>
> "The Senate may, by Senatus consultum, enact rules governing its own internal
> procedures (such Senatus consulta may not be overruled by laws passed in the
> comitia)." (Const. N.R. V.F)
>
> NOT a "majority". Two thirds. By our own law, and supported by the governing
> act in the laws of the United States under which we are incorporated.
>
> According to the law, the correct listing of the actions of senators during the
> time in question is as follows:
>
> The following XIV Senators cast their votes on time:
>
> *KFBQ: K. Fabius Buteo Quintilianus, Presiding Magistrate
> *ATS: A. Tullia Scholastica
> *CCS: C. Curius Saturninus
> *CnEM: Cn. Equitius Marinus
> *EmCF: Em. Curia Finnica
> *FrAC: Fr. Apulus Caesar
> *KFBM: K. Fabius Buteo Modianus
> *MAM: M. Arminius Maior
> *MCC: M. Curiatius Complutensis
> *MHM: M. Hortensia Maior
> *MIP: M. Iulius Perusianus
> *MIS: M. Iulius Severus
> *MLA: M. Lucretius Agricola
> *MMPH: M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus
>
> The following XV Senatores did not vote:
>
> *TIS: T. Iulius Sabinus
> *TiGP.: Ti. Galerius Paulinus
> *CEC: C. Equitius Cato
> *QSP: Q. Suetonius Paulinus
> *CPL: C. Popillius Laenas
> *CFD: C. Flavius Diocletianus
> *CMM: C. Marius Merullus
> *CnIC: Cn. Iulius Caesar
> *CVP: C. Vipsanius Agrippa
> *DIPI: Dec. Iunius Palladius Invictus
> *FlGA: Fl. Galerius Aurelianus
> *LCSF: L. Cornelius Sulla Felix
> *MMA M. Minucius Audens
> *PMA: P. Memmius Albucius
> *QFM: Q. Fabius Maximus
>
> There are 29 senators. The law requires 20 of them to be present to constitute quorum. There were only 14 voting, and even if you count those simply "absent", the official, legal (in writing to the co-secretary of the corporation) withdrawals leaves only 18.
>
> In the end, of course, the call was vetoed, so the "votes" did not constitute any official act of the Senate to begin with.
>
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79124 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: MASTER of the People???
Neither does Marinus, actually. Nor does ANY loyal citizen of Nova Roma. The
only ones who do are Piscinus and a few traitorous wretches who still cling
to the shattered remnants of their plans for a coup.

It must *really upset them that after planning this for over a year now, the
gods would not let it come to pass. *

**~ Valerianus

On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 1:54 AM, Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator <
famila.ulleria.venii@...> wrote:

>
>
> I think not.
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79125 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: Senate Rules and State law on quorums
Gaius Tullius Valerianus Piscino S.D.


> State law gives precedence to the Senate Rules for determining what is or
> is not a quorum. To be counted in the quorum all that has to be shown is
> that 2/3 of the senators had access to the list, and not that they voted.
> READ the Senate Rules. The fact that some, like Albucius, posted during the
> session, even though he did not 'participate' during the session, showed
> that he had access and thus counts towards the quorum. The fact that you,
> Galerius and Sabinus 'withdrew' your votes during the session shows that
> each of you had access during the session, along with Suetonius and Fabius
> Maximus, and thus counted towards the quorum. Palladius never posted, never
> voted, thus it could be said that he did not count towards a quorum since it
> cannot be demonstrated that he had access, even though he was subscribed at
> the time.
>
None of which matters since the session was legally vetoed anyway, which was
the reason for the withdrawals.


> Further, both Audens and Aurelianus are on extended leave and do not count
> towards the total Senate in calculating a quorum.
>
Thankfully, Audens has returned. When and if the Senate decides to discuss
this in a legal meeting, he can participate.

> ERGO: Marinus is Magister Popli designatus and Dictator by appointment with
> approval of the majority of the Senate attending, and Albucius' SCU's have
> failed due to the lack of a quorum.
>

Marinus disagrees with you. So does Consul Albucius, a majority of the
Senate, all of the loyal People, and the gods, apparently. Repeating the
same lie over and over and over still does not make it fact.

Enough of this nonsense. The Republic has real issues to deal with, and you
continuing to insist, "But I made Marinus king! I did! I did!" only
distracts from the business of the Republic, especially when Marinus has
signaled that he is not playing your game. None of us are playing games
except you.

Vale.

>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79126 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: A letter of public thanks to Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
Gaius Tullius Valerianus Gnaeo Equitio Marino S.P.D.

Salve!

I just wanted to express to you my heartfelt admiration for your principled
stand in the matter of the dictatorship. In a time when so many of our
leaders seem to care nothing for the law so long as their will is done, a
man willing to serve the Republic only in a legal and open way is a rare
thing, and a blessing to our Republic.

I am not a Senator, nor a high magistrate. I am but a humble citizen. But I
speak for many citizens when I thank you for this. Everyone I know sees how
Piscinus is attempting to bully you, just as he attempts to divide and bully
our entire Republic, and our admiration for your refusal to be bullied is
tremendous. Your stand against such a man is nothing more than your duty as
a loyal son of the Republic, of course, but the additional pressures brought
to bear publicly (and, I am guessing, privately as well) make your stand
heroic.

I continue to hope that a dictatorship will not be necessary. But I must say
that if it is, and a legal session of the senate decides to covey a
dictatorship on someone, your actions have shown that you would be up to the
job as few in our Republic could ever hope to be. Just as the legendary
Cincinnatus refused to hold on to power illegally, you have shown us all
that at least one man in Nova Roma cares more for our laws and customs than
for his own power and personal gain.

Once again, sir, I express my gratitude and admiration.

Cura ut valeas!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79127 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: PETITIO ACTIONIS
Sulla, you have been too much in a rush overall. I never accused you of
treating your house guests in any particular way: I just used you and those
who cohabit with you as an example to illustrate the fact that people who
are physically near each other are able to coerce each other, while people
who are separated by thousands of miles are not.



> Well Livia,
>
> My first sentence, while written in a rush since I was working at the time
> is still rather understandable.
>
> Yes you need to spell out to me I guess who you end up treating your
> guests.
>
>
> So, what I am saying is Yes, you need to spell it out to me, I guess
> because
> your words seem to indicate how you treat your own guests.
>
> Since, you have no bases of knowledge how I treat my own house guests. I
> just assumed that you are basing the baseless accusation on your own
> personal experience.
>
> Vale,
>
> Sulla
>
> On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 8:17 AM, L. Livia Plauta
> <livia.plauta@...>wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Salve Sulla,
>> I'm sorry, but your first sentence is too ungrammatical for me to
>> understand
>> it. As for the rest, I can only guess you have weird ideas about mating
>> rituals. Well, to each his own.
>>
>> Vale,
>> Livia
>>
>>
>> > Ave!
>> >
>> > Yes you need to spell out to me I guess who you end up treating your
>> > guests. Because in my world that would get someone arrested for
>> > unlawful
>> > imprisonment and torture. But I guess in your part of the world that is
>> > just a possible mating ritual for you?
>> >
>> > Vale,
>> >
>> > Sulla
>> >
>> > On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 1:26 PM, L. Livia Plauta
>> > <livia.plauta@... <livia.plauta%40gmail.com>>wrote:
>> >
>> >> Salve Sulla,
>> >> when living together with other people, you have several ways to
>> >> coerce
>> >> them
>> >> to do things. For example you could lock the bathroom door and coerce
>> >> them
>> >> to use the other bathroom, or wait until you unlock it, or whatever.
>> >> Or
>> >> you
>> >> could play loud music and coerce them to listen to it or use earplugs.
>> >> Do I really have to spell out for you something which is so obvious?
>> >>
>> >> Vale,
>> >> Livia
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Yo Livia,
>> >> >
>> >> > How do you know I am able to do that? And how are Tink and Metellus
>> >> > able
>> >> > to
>> >> > do that? Physically. Come on Livia you opened your trap..explain it
>> >> > or
>> >> I
>> >> > will file charges against you myself! for CALVMINAE
>> >> >
>> >> > Vale,
>> >> >
>> >> > Sulla
>> >> >
>> >> > On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 8:34 AM, L. Livia Plauta
>> >> > <livia.plauta@... <livia.plauta%40gmail.com>>wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Salve Cato,
>> >> >> it is ridiculous to think that Piscinus is able to *coerce* anyone
>> >> >> in
>> >> >> Nova
>> >> >> Roma to do anything.
>> >> >> Just how do you think he'd coerce anybody? By writing a lot of
>> emails?
>> >> >> As far as I know only Sulla and the people who live with him would
>> >> >> be
>> >> >> able
>> >> >> to physically coerce each other to do something, since they are
>> within
>> >> >> reach
>> >> >> of each other.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> For anyone else, it's ridiculous to postulate it.
>> >> >> Or do you think Piscinus has a collection of voodoo dolls, and at
>> >> >> night
>> >> >> he
>> >> >> performs rituals to magically coerce people to do his will? Come
>> >> >> on!
>> >> >>
>> >> >> L. Livia Plauta
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> From: "Cato" <catoinnyc@....>
>> >> >> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>> >> >> <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com><Nova-Roma%
>> 40yahoogroups.com>>
>> >> >> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 2:03 AM
>> >> >> Subject: [Nova-Roma] PETITIO ACTIONIS
>> >> >>
>> >> >> C. Equitius Cato P. Memmio Albucio consule et in loco praetoris
>> >> >> sal.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I, Gaius Equitius Cato, citizen, former praetor and current senator
>> of
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> Republic of Nova Roma and member of the Board of Directors of Nova
>> >> >> Roma,
>> >> >> Inc., wish to lodge formal charges against M. Moravius Piscinus, to
>> >> >> wit:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 1. FALSUM: that he has coerced members of the comitia curiata to
>> >> >> act
>> >> >> in
>> >> a
>> >> >> way inimical to their best interests (lex Salicia poenalis, pars
>> >> >> altera
>> >> >> 16).
>> >> >> He has called the comitia curiata to witness the appointment of a
>> >> >> dictator
>> >> >> despite the fact that no such appointment has been made; despite
>> >> >> the
>> >> fact
>> >> >> that the supposed nominee for the dictatorship has refused to
>> >> >> accept
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> nomination until a legally-convened Senate has voted to act upon
>> >> >> his
>> >> >> nomination; despite the fact that at least two lictors have stated
>> >> >> publicly,
>> >> >> clearly and unequivocally their legal reasons for not wishing to
>> break
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> law of Nova Roma; he has attempted to force members of the comitia
>> >> >> curiata
>> >> >> to break the law and make themselves liable to charges under Nova
>> >> >> Roman
>> >> >> law;
>> >> >> he has dismissed at least one lictor for refusing to break the law
>> per
>> >> >> his
>> >> >> direct instructions.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 2. LAESA PATRIAE: he has overtly acted to damage the institutions
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> Respublica, including the consulate, the Senate and the comitia
>> >> >> curiata;
>> >> >> he
>> >> >>
>> >> >> has acted in such a way as to endanger the ability of the republic
>> >> >> or
>> >> its
>> >> >> institutions to perform its legal functions including the
>> >> >> consulate,
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> Senate and the comitia curiata; he has violated the Constitution of
>> >> >> Nova
>> >> >> Roma and therefore the laws of the Respublica and the laws of the
>> >> >> United
>> >> >> States under which Nova Roma, Inc. are incorporated, opening up the
>> >> >> possibility of macronational legal activity against the Respublica
>> >> >> (loc.cit.
>> >> >> 21).
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 3. CONTUMELIA PIETATE: he is attempting to incite hatred, despite
>> >> >> or
>> >> >> enmity
>> >> >>
>> >> >> towards a person or group on the basis of the religious beliefs or
>> >> >> practices
>> >> >> of that person or group by claiming that non-practitioners are the
>> >> >> enemy
>> >> >> of
>> >> >>
>> >> >> the Respublica and the source of its internal challenges (loc.cit.
>> >> >> 18).
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Vale,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Gaius Equitius Cato
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > ------------------------------------
>> >> >
>> >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> Yahoo! Groups Links
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79128 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: Witnessing appointment
Livia Petronio sal.
Why do you concentrate on correcting Maior, and not on the other lictors who
wrote "lictor curiata"? I'm not sure my oath was free of errors either. But
rather than enjoying the privilege of not being a target of your sarcasm, I
feel together with those who are.
if you really want to be useful you could just post the correct version.

Optime vale,
Livia

----- Original Message -----
From: "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@...>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 12:07 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Witnessing appointment


C. Petronius M. Maiori s.p.d.,

> Ego, M. Hortensia Maior, lictrix curiata Novae Romae testificor Cn.
> Equitium Marinum Magisterum Populi et Dictatorem Novae Romae creari.
> Lictrix Comitiorum Curiatorum ei opto ut pro religione Romana felicissime
> officio munereque suo fungatur.

Once again it is not right...

Optime vale.

CPD
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79129 From: Kirsteen Wright Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: PETITIO ACTIONIS
On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 11:18 PM, L. Livia Plauta <livia.plauta@...>wrote:


> people who
> are physically near each other are able to coerce each other, while people
> who are separated by thousands of miles are not.
>
>
>
> That's really not true. You're only looking at physical coercion. There are
many, many other kinds of coercion which don't require physical proximity.

Flavia Lucilla Merula


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79130 From: Cato Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: Senate Rules and State law on quorums
Cato Piscino sal.

Piscinus, a legal objection (in writing to the co-secretary of the corporation) stands to act as a denial of quorum. The Senate was told specifically and in writing, that the objector had withdrawn from the actions of that so-called meeting and objected to them on the basis of their illegality.

*All of which, of course, is academic, as the call itself was vetoed and so no action can be understood to have had any legal foundation or result.*


On the other hand, not a single written objection to the Senate session called by consul Albucius was recorded by the secretary of the corporation, nor did any written notice arrive on the Senate floor excusing any member from attendance. Therefore, every senator on the List - aside from Audens and Aurelianus - voting or not, can be considered to have been present.

Vale,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79131 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: Senate Rules and State law on quorums
Cn. Iulius Caesar sal.

The below is incorrect I believe. Under chapter 605 of 13-B of the Maine Nonprofit Corporation Act, the rules for a quorum are provided by default IF and ONLY if the bylaws do not provide otherwise.

Since the bylaws of Nova Roma, in the form of our senatus consultum governing this process, do provide otherwise, the default rules of the state of Maine do NOT apply. The bylaws of Nova Roma provide the formula and that is what must be followed, and if followed the illegal session that tried to appoint a dictator failed.

It failed by being vetoed and if someone doesn't accept that then it failed under the rules for a quorum.

Optime valet


--- On Wed, 8/4/10, marcushoratius <MHoratius@...> wrote:

> From: marcushoratius <MHoratius@...>
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Senate Rules and State law on quorums
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wednesday, August 4, 2010, 4:25 AM
> Catone
>
> Do you ever bother to actually read what you post? State
> law gives precedence to the Senate Rules for determining
> what is or is not a quorum.  To be counted in the
> quorum all that has to be shown is that 2/3 of the senators
> had access to the list, and not that they voted. READ the
> Senate Rules.  The fact that some, like Albucius,
> posted during the session, even though he did not
> 'participate' during the session, showed that he had access
> and thus counts towards the quorum.  The fact that you,
> Galerius and Sabinus 'withdrew' your votes during the
> session shows that each of you had access during the
> session, along with Suetonius and Fabius Maximus, and thus
> counted towards the quorum. Palladius never posted, never
> voted, thus it could be said that he did not count towards a
> quorum since it cannot be demonstrated that he had access,
> even though he was subscribed at the time.
>
> Those who posted, and thus had access, were:
>
> *KFBQ: K. Fabius Buteo Quintilianus, Presiding Magistrate
> > *ATS: A. Tullia Scholastica
> > *CCS: C. Curius Saturninus
> > *CnEM: Cn. Equitius Marinus
> > *EmCF: Em. Curia Finnica
> > *FrAC: Fr. Apulus Caesar
> > *KFBM: K. Fabius Buteo Modianus
> > *MAM: M. Arminius Maior
> > *MCC: M. Curiatius Complutensis
> > *MHM: M. Hortensia Maior
> > *MIP: M. Iulius Perusianus
> > *MIS: M. Iulius Severus
> > *MLA: M. Lucretius Agricola
> > *MMPH: M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus
> > *TIS: T. Iulius Sabinus
> > *TiGP.: Ti. Galerius Paulinus
> > *CEC: C. Equitius Cato
> > *QSP: Q. Suetonius Paulinus
> > *CPL: C. Popillius Laenas
> > *PMA: P. Memmius Albucius
> > *QFM: Q. Fabius Maximus
>
> Further, both Audens and Aurelianus are on extended leave
> and do not count towards the total Senate in calculating a
> quorum. Thus of the 27 senators who could have access, it
> can be demonstrated that 21 were present during the session.
> That is 7/9 or 78% present.
>
> In contrast, the session called by Albucius during 26 July
> to 1 Aug. had only 16 senators post of 27, therefore being
> only 59% and thus falling short of the 2/3 required for a
> quorum.
>
> Appointment of a dictator requires only a majority of those
> present when a quorum is met, as did occur.  And an SCU
> also only requires a majority of those present when a quorum
> is met, but Albucius did not attain a quorum.
>
> ERGO: Marinus is Magister Popli designatus and Dictator by
> appointment with approval of the majority of the Senate
> attending, and Albucius' SCU's have failed due to the lack
> of a quorum.
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com,
> "Cato" <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
> >
> > Cato Piscino sal.
> >
> > And here, once again, you show your argument's
> weakness:
> >
> > "A majority of the votes entitled to be cast on a
> matter to be voted upon by the
> > members present or represented by proxy at a meeting
> at which a quorum is
> > present shall be necessary for the adoption thereof
> UNLESS A GREATER PROPORTION
> > IS REQUIRED BY this Act, the articles of incorporation
> or THE BYLAWS." (my
> > emphasis)
> >
> > From the senatus consultum on defining a quorum:
> >
> > "II. When official Senate business is being conducted
> via electronic mail (as
> > outlined in paragraph IV.A. of the Senatus Consultum
> De Ratione Senatus), at
> > least two-thirds of the members of the Senate must
> have access to the email list
> > in question in order to constitute a quorum. The
> two-thirds requirement shall
> > be calculated so as to retain fractions; i.e., if
> 13.33 Senators are required to
> > establish a forum, 13 Senators shall not be adequate
> to do so, but 14 shall be."
> >
> > And the Senate, under the Constitution, has this
> authority:
> >
> > "The Senate may, by Senatus consultum, enact rules
> governing its own internal
> > procedures (such Senatus consulta may not be overruled
> by laws passed in the
> > comitia)." (Const. N.R. V.F)
> >
> > NOT a "majority". Two thirds. By our own law, and
> supported by the governing
> > act in the laws of the United States under which we
> are incorporated.
> >
> > According to the law, the correct listing of the
> actions of senators during the
> > time in question is as follows:
> >
> > The following XIV Senators cast their votes on time:
> >
> > *KFBQ: K. Fabius Buteo Quintilianus, Presiding
> Magistrate
> > *ATS: A. Tullia Scholastica
> > *CCS: C. Curius Saturninus
> > *CnEM: Cn. Equitius Marinus
> > *EmCF: Em. Curia Finnica
> > *FrAC: Fr. Apulus Caesar
> > *KFBM: K. Fabius Buteo Modianus
> > *MAM: M. Arminius Maior
> > *MCC: M. Curiatius Complutensis
> > *MHM: M. Hortensia Maior
> > *MIP: M. Iulius Perusianus
> > *MIS: M. Iulius Severus
> > *MLA: M. Lucretius Agricola
> > *MMPH: M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus
> >
> > The following XV Senatores did not vote:
> >
> > *TIS: T. Iulius Sabinus
> > *TiGP.: Ti. Galerius Paulinus
> > *CEC: C. Equitius Cato
> > *QSP: Q. Suetonius Paulinus
> > *CPL: C. Popillius Laenas
> > *CFD: C. Flavius Diocletianus
> > *CMM: C. Marius Merullus
> > *CnIC: Cn. Iulius Caesar
> > *CVP: C. Vipsanius Agrippa
> > *DIPI: Dec. Iunius Palladius Invictus
> > *FlGA: Fl. Galerius Aurelianus
> > *LCSF: L. Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > *MMA M. Minucius Audens
> > *PMA: P. Memmius Albucius
> > *QFM: Q. Fabius Maximus
> >
> > There are 29 senators.  The law requires 20 of
> them to be present to constitute quorum.  There were
> only 14 voting, and even if you count those simply "absent",
> the official, legal (in writing to the co-secretary of the
> corporation) withdrawals leaves only 18.
> >
> > In the end, of course, the call was vetoed, so the
> "votes" did not constitute any official act of the Senate to
> begin with.
> >
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Cato
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>     Nova-Roma-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79132 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: Senate Rules and State law on quorums
Caesar Piscino sal.

Cato is correct. The rules are clear. Whether someone was there at the start, posted or not, they are quite definitive. So if the default rules of Maine don't apply, and I am still not sure whether you think they do or not, and if you agree senate rules apply, then clearly the quorum was not met as the conditions were met.

Either way though, the session was vetoed first so this is an academic argument, and as you know that is why I withdrew.

Optime vale.

--- On Wed, 8/4/10, marcushoratius <MHoratius@...> wrote:

> From: marcushoratius <MHoratius@...>
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Senate Rules and State law on quorums
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wednesday, August 4, 2010, 4:25 AM
> Catone
>
> Do you ever bother to actually read what you post? State
> law gives precedence to the Senate Rules for determining
> what is or is not a quorum.  To be counted in the
> quorum all that has to be shown is that 2/3 of the senators
> had access to the list, and not that they voted. READ the
> Senate Rules.  The fact that some, like Albucius,
> posted during the session, even though he did not
> 'participate' during the session, showed that he had access
> and thus counts towards the quorum.  The fact that you,
> Galerius and Sabinus 'withdrew' your votes during the
> session shows that each of you had access during the
> session, along with Suetonius and Fabius Maximus, and thus
> counted towards the quorum. Palladius never posted, never
> voted, thus it could be said that he did not count towards a
> quorum since it cannot be demonstrated that he had access,
> even though he was subscribed at the time.
>
> Those who posted, and thus had access, were:
>
> *KFBQ: K. Fabius Buteo Quintilianus, Presiding Magistrate
> > *ATS: A. Tullia Scholastica
> > *CCS: C. Curius Saturninus
> > *CnEM: Cn. Equitius Marinus
> > *EmCF: Em. Curia Finnica
> > *FrAC: Fr. Apulus Caesar
> > *KFBM: K. Fabius Buteo Modianus
> > *MAM: M. Arminius Maior
> > *MCC: M. Curiatius Complutensis
> > *MHM: M. Hortensia Maior
> > *MIP: M. Iulius Perusianus
> > *MIS: M. Iulius Severus
> > *MLA: M. Lucretius Agricola
> > *MMPH: M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus
> > *TIS: T. Iulius Sabinus
> > *TiGP.: Ti. Galerius Paulinus
> > *CEC: C. Equitius Cato
> > *QSP: Q. Suetonius Paulinus
> > *CPL: C. Popillius Laenas
> > *PMA: P. Memmius Albucius
> > *QFM: Q. Fabius Maximus
>
> Further, both Audens and Aurelianus are on extended leave
> and do not count towards the total Senate in calculating a
> quorum. Thus of the 27 senators who could have access, it
> can be demonstrated that 21 were present during the session.
> That is 7/9 or 78% present.
>
> In contrast, the session called by Albucius during 26 July
> to 1 Aug. had only 16 senators post of 27, therefore being
> only 59% and thus falling short of the 2/3 required for a
> quorum.
>
> Appointment of a dictator requires only a majority of those
> present when a quorum is met, as did occur.  And an SCU
> also only requires a majority of those present when a quorum
> is met, but Albucius did not attain a quorum.
>
> ERGO: Marinus is Magister Popli designatus and Dictator by
> appointment with approval of the majority of the Senate
> attending, and Albucius' SCU's have failed due to the lack
> of a quorum.
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com,
> "Cato" <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
> >
> > Cato Piscino sal.
> >
> > And here, once again, you show your argument's
> weakness:
> >
> > "A majority of the votes entitled to be cast on a
> matter to be voted upon by the
> > members present or represented by proxy at a meeting
> at which a quorum is
> > present shall be necessary for the adoption thereof
> UNLESS A GREATER PROPORTION
> > IS REQUIRED BY this Act, the articles of incorporation
> or THE BYLAWS." (my
> > emphasis)
> >
> > From the senatus consultum on defining a quorum:
> >
> > "II. When official Senate business is being conducted
> via electronic mail (as
> > outlined in paragraph IV.A. of the Senatus Consultum
> De Ratione Senatus), at
> > least two-thirds of the members of the Senate must
> have access to the email list
> > in question in order to constitute a quorum. The
> two-thirds requirement shall
> > be calculated so as to retain fractions; i.e., if
> 13.33 Senators are required to
> > establish a forum, 13 Senators shall not be adequate
> to do so, but 14 shall be."
> >
> > And the Senate, under the Constitution, has this
> authority:
> >
> > "The Senate may, by Senatus consultum, enact rules
> governing its own internal
> > procedures (such Senatus consulta may not be overruled
> by laws passed in the
> > comitia)." (Const. N.R. V.F)
> >
> > NOT a "majority". Two thirds. By our own law, and
> supported by the governing
> > act in the laws of the United States under which we
> are incorporated.
> >
> > According to the law, the correct listing of the
> actions of senators during the
> > time in question is as follows:
> >
> > The following XIV Senators cast their votes on time:
> >
> > *KFBQ: K. Fabius Buteo Quintilianus, Presiding
> Magistrate
> > *ATS: A. Tullia Scholastica
> > *CCS: C. Curius Saturninus
> > *CnEM: Cn. Equitius Marinus
> > *EmCF: Em. Curia Finnica
> > *FrAC: Fr. Apulus Caesar
> > *KFBM: K. Fabius Buteo Modianus
> > *MAM: M. Arminius Maior
> > *MCC: M. Curiatius Complutensis
> > *MHM: M. Hortensia Maior
> > *MIP: M. Iulius Perusianus
> > *MIS: M. Iulius Severus
> > *MLA: M. Lucretius Agricola
> > *MMPH: M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus
> >
> > The following XV Senatores did not vote:
> >
> > *TIS: T. Iulius Sabinus
> > *TiGP.: Ti. Galerius Paulinus
> > *CEC: C. Equitius Cato
> > *QSP: Q. Suetonius Paulinus
> > *CPL: C. Popillius Laenas
> > *CFD: C. Flavius Diocletianus
> > *CMM: C. Marius Merullus
> > *CnIC: Cn. Iulius Caesar
> > *CVP: C. Vipsanius Agrippa
> > *DIPI: Dec. Iunius Palladius Invictus
> > *FlGA: Fl. Galerius Aurelianus
> > *LCSF: L. Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > *MMA M. Minucius Audens
> > *PMA: P. Memmius Albucius
> > *QFM: Q. Fabius Maximus
> >
> > There are 29 senators.  The law requires 20 of
> them to be present to constitute quorum.  There were
> only 14 voting, and even if you count those simply "absent",
> the official, legal (in writing to the co-secretary of the
> corporation) withdrawals leaves only 18.
> >
> > In the end, of course, the call was vetoed, so the
> "votes" did not constitute any official act of the Senate to
> begin with.
> >
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Cato
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>     Nova-Roma-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79133 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: MAGISTER POPULI
C. Petronius M. Moravio s.p.d.,

> Magister Populi is the proper and correct name for 'dictator.'

Not at all. In the Constitution the proper name is dictator.

> It goes back, actually, to Servius Tullius, who did not take the title of Rex, depicting himself instead as a champion of the people (in the City) rather than a king among the large land owners of the surrounding Roman territority.

I have no evidence of that. I only find in the first book, chapter five, of Th. Mommsen his definition of a Roman king, in the same time Rex (regere), dictator (dictare) and magister populi. I have it in French: "Il lui fallait quelqu'un pourtant qui la dirigeât (Rex), qui lui dictât ses ordres (dictator), un maître du peuple enfin (magister populi)."

I remind you that Th. Mommsen as Fustel de Coulanges are scholars and work on sources and make interpretations of them, they are not sources themselves.

Some scholars say that magister populi was also one of the early titles of the consuls, first named praetors...

According to T. Livy the first dictator was T. Largius on 501 BC, but he says that he is not absolutely sure nor on the name nor on the year... :-) and he wrote dictator not magister populi to name it.

"In hac tantarum expectatione rerum sollicita ciuitate, dictatoris primum creandi mentio orta. Sed nec quibus consulibus quia ex factione Tarquiniana essent — id quoque enim traditur - parum creditum sit, nec quis primum dictator creatus sit, satis constat. Apud ueterrimos tamen auctores T. Largium dictatorem primum, Sp. Cassium magistrum equitum creatos inuenio. Consulares legere; ita lex iubebat de dictatore creando lata." (II, 18)

> When the kings were expelled and the title of 'rex' took on a hated connotation, they reverted to this title of magister populi when the highest authority in the state was invested in one man.

Magister populi may be one of the early title of the consuls.

> 'Dictator' was first used when Sulla rebelled against the Senate and the City to usurp power.

Not at all, the title existed from the kings who were together rex, dictator and magister populi, the first republican dictator was T. Largius around 501 BC...

Vale optime.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
Pridie Nonas Sextiles P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79134 From: Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: Claudia Juliana was right
Salve Maxima Valeria;

I should like to thank you for the explanation and exposition about
your life as a Vestal, and other particulars.

It is late in the "day," but I will offer my best wishes towards your healing.

Vale - Venator
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79135 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: Witnessing appointment
C. Petronius L. Liviae Plautae s.p.d.,

> Why do you concentrate on correcting Maior, and not on the other lictors who wrote "lictor curiata"? I'm not sure my oath was free of errors either.

Exactly, it was not. But it seemed to me that you withdrew it, but perhaps I am wrong. I have to read so many messages...

> But rather than enjoying the privilege of not being a target of your sarcasm,

Where did you see any sarcasm? If it is wrong, I tell it. And I prefer the person finding by himself the error than to show him where it is. Maior both corrected her errors and I am proud of her attitude. I guess now she is better in Latin.

> I feel together with those who are. if you really want to be useful you could just post the correct version.

It is not such pedagogical...

Vale optime.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
Pridie Nonas Sextiles P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79136 From: Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Apology to Marinus; was Re: MASTER of the People???
Salve Marinus et avete omnes;

On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 12:54 AM, Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator wrote:
> I think not.
>
> Marinus, you ought be ashamed.
>

I have been corrected in my understanding of the facts of the matter
as they stand at the time of my typing this.

I apologize for jumping to a bad conclusion and for naming Marinus as shameful.

My only explanation is not fully reading after being away for several
days and getting home after hours of delay in the plane flights. I
read on too little rest.

=====================================
In amicitia et fide
Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator
Civis circa Quintilis MMDCCLI a.u.c.

Postscriptum; My great nephew, Parker Ian, is a handsome little boy at
just over 1 month of age and is very stoic (over 2 dozen people were
there for his "unveilling" ,-)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79137 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: Witnessing appointment
Maior Liviae spd;
maximas gratias Livia, I wrote to Scholastica who told me the declension of magister should be be corrected as 'magistrum'. Glad to help!
optime vale
Maior

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Livia Plauta" <livia.plauta@...> wrote:
>
> Livia Petronio sal.
> Why do you concentrate on correcting Maior, and not on the other lictors who
> wrote "lictor curiata"? I'm not sure my oath was free of errors either. But
> rather than enjoying the privilege of not being a target of your sarcasm, I
> feel together with those who are.
> if you really want to be useful you could just post the correct version.
>
> Optime vale,
> Livia
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@>
> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 12:07 AM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Witnessing appointment
>
>
> C. Petronius M. Maiori s.p.d.,
>
> > Ego, M. Hortensia Maior, lictrix curiata Novae Romae testificor Cn.
> > Equitium Marinum Magisterum Populi et Dictatorem Novae Romae creari.
> > Lictrix Comitiorum Curiatorum ei opto ut pro religione Romana felicissime
> > officio munereque suo fungatur.
>
> Once again it is not right...
>
> Optime vale.
>
> CPD
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79138 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: Witnessing appointment
C. Petronius M. Hortensiae s.p.d.,

> maximas gratias Livia, I wrote to Scholastica who told me the declension of magister should be be corrected as 'magistrum'.

Suddenly, I am less proud of you...

Optime vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
Pridie Nonas Sextiles P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79139 From: qvalerius Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: Witnessing appointment
Ah, Plauta and her usual hypocrisy. Why, it was only in January 2009 when Plauta made disparaging remarks against someone who copy and pasted an oath that contained an error rather than read it thoroughly.

Looks like some crazy hypocrites remain that way, don't they?

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Livia Plauta" <livia.plauta@...> wrote:
>
> Livia Petronio sal.
> Why do you concentrate on correcting Maior, and not on the other lictors who
> wrote "lictor curiata"? I'm not sure my oath was free of errors either. But
> rather than enjoying the privilege of not being a target of your sarcasm, I
> feel together with those who are.
> if you really want to be useful you could just post the correct version.
>
> Optime vale,
> Livia
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@>
> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 12:07 AM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Witnessing appointment
>
>
> C. Petronius M. Maiori s.p.d.,
>
> > Ego, M. Hortensia Maior, lictrix curiata Novae Romae testificor Cn.
> > Equitium Marinum Magisterum Populi et Dictatorem Novae Romae creari.
> > Lictrix Comitiorum Curiatorum ei opto ut pro religione Romana felicissime
> > officio munereque suo fungatur.
>
> Once again it is not right...
>
> Optime vale.
>
> CPD
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79140 From: Cato Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: Witnessing appointment
Cato Poplicolae sal.

Well, remember that these two ladies are also capable of "witnessing" an event which hasn't even occurred; their facilities are, therefore, somewhat under question.

Vale,

Cato



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "qvalerius" <q.valerius.poplicola@...> wrote:
>
> Ah, Plauta and her usual hypocrisy. Why, it was only in January 2009 when Plauta made disparaging remarks against someone who copy and pasted an oath that contained an error rather than read it thoroughly.
>
> Looks like some crazy hypocrites remain that way, don't they?
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Livia Plauta" <livia.plauta@> wrote:
> >
> > Livia Petronio sal.
> > Why do you concentrate on correcting Maior, and not on the other lictors who
> > wrote "lictor curiata"? I'm not sure my oath was free of errors either. But
> > rather than enjoying the privilege of not being a target of your sarcasm, I
> > feel together with those who are.
> > if you really want to be useful you could just post the correct version.
> >
> > Optime vale,
> > Livia
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@>
> > To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 12:07 AM
> > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Witnessing appointment
> >
> >
> > C. Petronius M. Maiori s.p.d.,
> >
> > > Ego, M. Hortensia Maior, lictrix curiata Novae Romae testificor Cn.
> > > Equitium Marinum Magisterum Populi et Dictatorem Novae Romae creari.
> > > Lictrix Comitiorum Curiatorum ei opto ut pro religione Romana felicissime
> > > officio munereque suo fungatur.
> >
> > Once again it is not right...
> >
> > Optime vale.
> >
> > CPD
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79141 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: Witnessing appointment
Livia Petronio sal.

I have been a language teacher for 15 years, and I assure you that the
correct attitude is to provide corrections to mistakes. The habit of letting
students guess where their mistakes are drives them up the wall. (I will let
you look up the meaning of this expression, since this is the method you are
so fond of).

I never withdrew my statement. I firmly believe that it's not my place to
decide whether a senate session was legal or not.

I did correct "Magisterum" with "Magistrum" before posting, though.

Optime vale,
Livia

----- Original Message -----
From: "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@...>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 5:22 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Witnessing appointment


C. Petronius L. Liviae Plautae s.p.d.,

> Why do you concentrate on correcting Maior, and not on the other lictors
> who wrote "lictor curiata"? I'm not sure my oath was free of errors
> either.

Exactly, it was not. But it seemed to me that you withdrew it, but perhaps I
am wrong. I have to read so many messages...

> But rather than enjoying the privilege of not being a target of your
> sarcasm,

Where did you see any sarcasm? If it is wrong, I tell it. And I prefer the
person finding by himself the error than to show him where it is. Maior both
corrected her errors and I am proud of her attitude. I guess now she is
better in Latin.

> I feel together with those who are. if you really want to be useful you
> could just post the correct version.

It is not such pedagogical...

Vale optime.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
Pridie Nonas Sextiles P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79142 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: PETITIO ACTIONIS
Like what, Voodoo dolls?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kirsteen Wright" <kirsteen.falconsfan@...>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] PETITIO ACTIONIS


> On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 11:18 PM, L. Livia Plauta
> <livia.plauta@...com>wrote:
>
>
>> people who
>> are physically near each other are able to coerce each other, while
>> people
>> who are separated by thousands of miles are not.
>>
>>
>>
>> That's really not true. You're only looking at physical coercion. There
>> are
> many, many other kinds of coercion which don't require physical proximity.
>
> Flavia Lucilla Merula
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79143 From: Gaius Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: PETITIO ACTIONIS
Salve,

The crime we call here "Blackmail" can be a form of non-physical coercion. I think there are several other non-physical types.

Laenas

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Livia Plauta" <livia.plauta@...> wrote:
>
> Like what, Voodoo dolls?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kirsteen Wright" <kirsteen.falconsfan@>
> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 2:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] PETITIO ACTIONIS
>
>
> > On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 11:18 PM, L. Livia Plauta
> > <livia.plauta@...>wrote:
> >
> >
> >> people who
> >> are physically near each other are able to coerce each other, while
> >> people
> >> who are separated by thousands of miles are not.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> That's really not true. You're only looking at physical coercion. There
> >> are
> > many, many other kinds of coercion which don't require physical proximity.
> >
> > Flavia Lucilla Merula
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79144 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: PETITIO ACTIONIS
In order to blackmail somebody you have to have the possibility of harming
that person.
So what harm do you think Piscinus could have threatened the lictors with?
"Post your witness statement or I will write you an email!". Lame, isn't it?


----- Original Message -----
From: "Gaius" <gaiuspopillius@...>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2010 12:01 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: PETITIO ACTIONIS


Salve,

The crime we call here "Blackmail" can be a form of non-physical coercion.
I think there are several other non-physical types.

Laenas

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Livia Plauta" <livia.plauta@...>
wrote:
>
> Like what, Voodoo dolls?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kirsteen Wright" <kirsteen.falconsfan@>
> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 2:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] PETITIO ACTIONIS
>
>
> > On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 11:18 PM, L. Livia Plauta
> > <livia.plauta@...>wrote:
> >
> >
> >> people who
> >> are physically near each other are able to coerce each other, while
> >> people
> >> who are separated by thousands of miles are not.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> That's really not true. You're only looking at physical coercion. There
> >> are
> > many, many other kinds of coercion which don't require physical
> > proximity.
> >
> > Flavia Lucilla Merula
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79145 From: Kirsteen Wright Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: PETITIO ACTIONIS
On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 11:12 PM, L. Livia Plauta <livia.plauta@...>wrote:

> In order to blackmail somebody you have to have the possibility of harming
> that person.
>
And you need be nowhere physically near them in order to do that. There's a
million and one scenarios. There's do as I say or I'll reveal a, b or c to
x, y or z. This could result in anything from loss of face, public
humiliation or imprisonment by the authorities depending on knowledge
revealed. Of course, if you still have the death penalty it could even be
loss of life.

Or there's the much more prosaic, if you want a, you do b or I make sure you
don't get a. It doesn't take more than 2 brain cells to work out that the
possibilities are endless.

Merula


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79146 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-08-04
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Confarreationes in August
Salvete;
the nuptials are approaching let's wish the happy couples bona fortuna and much joy!

And also to our religious officials; Lentulus, Piscinus, Corvus and Agricola who've labored on the ceremony and especially Agricola and Lentulus who travelled far for this day!
di nobis faveant!
M. Hortensia Maior

:
>
> Salvete omnes,
>
> > I am very delighted to announce the following confarreationes:
> >
> > Titus Iunius Brutus and Gaia Lucilia Severa
> >
> > Appius Furius Lupus and Lucia Cassia Dives
> >
> > Marcus Octavius Corvus and Appia Flavia Gemella
>
> Best wishes and congratulations to you all!
>
> > Additional ceremonies to be performed by Pontifex Cn. Cornelius Lentulus will include the consecration of the Temple of Iuppiter Perunus of Nova Roma. The Pontifex shall also consecrate M. Lucretius Agricola as Augur Publicus of Nova Roma and inaugurate M. Octavius Corvus as an Augur of Provincia Sarmatia
>
> Congratulations Amici!
>
> Valete,
>
> Julia
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79147 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2010-08-05
Subject: Re: Witnessing appointment
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica L. Liviae Plautae C. Petronio Dextro quiritibus,
> sociis, peregrinisque bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
>
>
>
> Livia Petronio sal.
>
> I have been a language teacher for 15 years, and I assure you that the
> correct attitude is to provide corrections to mistakes.
>
>
> ATS: Exactly.
>
>
> The habit of letting
> students guess where their mistakes are drives them up the wall. (I will let
> you look up the meaning of this expression, since this is the method you are
> so fond of).
>
> ATS: Students learn from their mistakes (or so we hope), which is why we
> correct them. If we let them figure things out, they might not discover their
> errors. Far better to correct them. BTW, Dexter, did you notice the error in
> using the third-declension ablative instead of the dative when representing an
> indirect object, something frequently repeated by some who are hardly silent
> on this list? Why pick on just one writer of erroneous Latin, or, for that
> matter, one copyist of erroneous Latin?
>
>
>
> I never withdrew my statement. I firmly believe that it's not my place to
> decide whether a senate session was legal or not.
>
> I did correct "Magisterum" with "Magistrum" before posting, though.
>
> ATS: And there were other errata...
>
> Optime vale,
> Livia
>
> Valete.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@...>
> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com> >
> Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 5:22 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Witnessing appointment
>
> C. Petronius L. Liviae Plautae s.p.d.,
>
>> > Why do you concentrate on correcting Maior, and not on the other lictors
>> > who wrote "lictor curiata"? I'm not sure my oath was free of errors
>> > either.
>
> Exactly, it was not. But it seemed to me that you withdrew it, but perhaps I
> am wrong. I have to read so many messages...
>
>> > But rather than enjoying the privilege of not being a target of your
>> > sarcasm,
>
> Where did you see any sarcasm? If it is wrong, I tell it. And I prefer the
> person finding by himself the error than to show him where it is. Maior both
> corrected her errors and I am proud of her attitude. I guess now she is
> better in Latin.
>
>> > I feel together with those who are. if you really want to be useful you
>> > could just post the correct version.
>
> It is not such pedagogical...
>
> Vale optime.
>
> C. Petronius Dexter
> Arcoiali scribebat
> Pridie Nonas Sextiles P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
>
>
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79148 From: Jean-François Arnoud Date: 2010-08-05
Subject: Re : Re : Your "instructions" to the Lictores curiati
Ave M. Moravi,

Your introduction about my unfamiliarity with NR law is funny from you, because
you publicly show to the people of Nova Roma that you are very unfamiliar with
Nova Roma laws.

In this case. First you make a confusion with two powers. 1- The tribunes can
convene the senate, 2- they have the power to veto, but convening the senate is
not a veto nor an intercessio and you speak about a veto. You are confusing veto
and convening... who has difficulties with English language?

The tribunes did not veto the consul. But the consul vetoed the convening. His
veto is not mentionned into the tribune tendancious reporting... So, they were
not very sure of their rights if they write a false story.


Second, the tribunes cannot convene the senate to make a dictator. It is a coup,
and you cheated the tribunes. Tribunes can convene the Senate with an agenda and
items whose the subjects concern the tribunes duties and areas. It was not the
case.


Third. The Item III is unconstitutional.
It is writing in it about the tasks:
"The Senate conveys resolution of the following tasks, *although not limited to
these alone*, to Cn. Equitius Marinus:"

Fourth. This is not a Roman dictatura *not limited to these alone*, it is said,
so not limited to the tasks voted by senators, that is a "carte blanche"
dictatorship! It is actually a coup not a Roman dictatura.

But fortunately your coup failed. Unless it can serve as example for another
candidate dictator on the way he must not follow. If honest, he has to convene
legally the Senate with dictatorship as item on the agenda, if dishonest, as you
tempted, the next time he must chose other puppets, Quintilianus was lazy or not
convinced enough and Marinus was honest and gentleman... in few words, M.
Moravi, for the next time, if you want dictatorship cross yourself the Rubicon.
Acting behind the scenes involving tribunes and "puppets" is not the right way
to obtain it.


Do you know the French comics Iznogoud?

Optime vale.
 
C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
Kalendis Sextilibus P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79149 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2010-08-05
Subject: Re: Witnessing appointment
C. Petronius L. Liviae s.p.d.,

> I have been a language teacher for 15 years, and I assure you that the correct attitude is to provide corrections to mistakes. The habit of letting students guess where their mistakes are drives them up the wall. (I will let you look up the meaning of this expression, since this is the method you are so fond of).

I have not such experience, I never wanted to teach anything... but after 7 years of studying English language I was not able to follow a discussion. And that is the sort of all the French pupils studying English... so, I learnt Latin alone, with my own method, and now I write poetries and novels in latin, the last "de Saturnalibus cruentis" will be available on the Circulus website on the beginning of september...

> I never withdrew my statement. I firmly believe that it's not my place to decide whether a senate session was legal or not.

It is not the point... you witness an act which did not happened.

> I did correct "Magisterum" with "Magistrum" before posting, though.

I have to register you in the first Latinitatis decuria.

Optime vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
Nonis Sextilibus P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79150 From: Timothy or Stephen Gallagher Date: 2010-08-05
Subject: Re: On the trial of M. Hortensia
Salve

"I suppose the reason might have been one of political expediency: probably,
though both magistrates knew that Major was innocent of the crime she was
accused of, ...

The ONLY thing that Maior is INNOCENT of is the Lindbergh kidnapping.

Vale

Paulinus





To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
From: livia.plauta@...
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 20:08:38 +0200
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] On the trial of M. Hortensia






L. Livia Plauta omnibus sal.

As usual it's a pleasure to read a post by A. Apollonius Cordus.

It was very interesting to read what happened "behind the scenes" of the
trial (even though more things might have been happening that even
Apollonius didn't know about).

When the sentence was published I was traveling, with little Internet
access, so I missed the window of opportunity to comment, but I did find
weird that the sententia by Sabinus had exactly the same wording as the call
for a sententia by Albucius.

I'm not really familiar with the leges Saliciae, so I wasn't aware of the
extent to which the call for a sententia was incompatible with said leges.

I know Sabinus as a very intelligent and independent man, who is not afraid
of acting according to his own opinions, even at the cost of getting in
conflict with others, and I know that by no means does he always agree with
Albucius, so when I saw the sententia I assumed that he must have had a
compelling reason for following Albucius' instructions to the letter, and I
suspected that the sententia had been agreed on by both magistrates before
the "call" was published.
I suppose the reason might have been one of political expediency: probably,
though both magistrates knew that Major was innocent of the crime she was
accused of, they thought she deserved a lesson for acting several times
without much diplomacy, and possibly they feared a negative reaction by
public opinion in case she was aquitted.
They were probably right in their assessment, since public opinon in the
whole doesn't seem very outraged by Major's condemnation.
However, whatever the reason for their behaviour, I now realize that the two
magistrates did create a dangerous precedent.

For the situation at hand the only solution seems to be a lex invalidating
the sentence.
For the future we have to hope that the situation will be solved by having
praetors, and that the praetors will follow procedure and nobody will think
of suggesting in public, word by word, the sentence to a judge.

I also suggest that the accused in future learn from Major's mistake, and do
not agree to a jury composed by one judge only.

Optime valete,
Livia

----- Original Message -----
From: "A. Apoll��nius Cordus" <jamie.k.johnston@...>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 1:10 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] On the trial of M. Hortensia

A. Apollonius omnibus sal.

As you may remember, I don't like participating in this e-mail list these
days. Some of you may be able to sympathize. So I hope you'll understand
that I wouldn't be here, and wouldn't trouble you with this message, if I
didn't think it fairly important.

I say that at the outset because it's going to be a very long message - I
could split it into sections but that would unnecessarily fill the inboxes
of those who have no interest in the topic - and because I want to encourage
you to read it anyway. I want you to read it whether or not you like M.
Hortensia, whether or not you believe she committed the crime for which she
was prosecuted, whether or not you care. I want you to read it if you care
about standards of fairness and justice in this community.

And one last thing before I start: this message is not about whether M.
Hortensia is guilty. As her advocate, it was my duty to argue that she was
not. The trial is over, and I am not her advocate any more. She is still
my friend, but so is Q. Metellus, who prosecuted her, and so (I hope) is C.
Equitius, who was the person whose rights she was prosecuted for infringing.
In short, I have no professional or personal stake in this case any more.
I'm here as a private individual who happens to have considerably more
knowledge of what went on during these legal proceedings than almost all of
you, and who is troubled by that knowledge, and who thinks you should be
troubled too.

At some time before 17 June this year the consul P. Memmius received a
petitio actionis from Q. Metellus. A petitio actionis, literally 'the
seeking of a judicial process', is essentially a request for permission to
take somebody to court. The receipt of such a request triggers the
beginning of the process prescribed by the lex Salicia judiciaria
(supplemented by the lex Salicia poenalis). Now, anyone at all familiar
with Roman legal procedure will recognize the process set out there as a
very close copy of what's called the 'formulary system', which was one of
the main ways ancient Roman magistrates administered justice from about 125
BC to the end of the republic and after. In fact the Salician procedure is,
on paper, quite possibly Nova Roma's most accurate legislative reproduction
of an ancient Roman institution or process. But of course the lex Salicia
isn't a complete description of every detail and every contigency of the
formulary system, and its English is occasionally imperfect or imprecise, so
it still needs to be interpreted by the magistrates who are applying it in a
given case.

The need for interpretation evidently arose as soon as Albucius received
this petitio. Because, you see, he was a consul, and the lex Salicia
doesn't give consules any power to accept or reject or otherwise deal with
petitiones actionis. It only mentions praetores. But at that time there
were no praetores. What was he to do? Other leges were of no assistance.
The lex constitutiva says nothing at all about judicial proceedings, and
does not give any magistrate any power to deal with such proceedings.
Within the written law of Nova Roma there is nothing that explicitly gives
any ordinary magistrate any judicial powers except the leges Saliciae. Now,
some people in Nova Roma believe that the lex constitutiva and the written
leges made under its authority are the only legitimate source of any
magistrate's power, and that if neither the lex constitutiva nor any other
lex explictly says that a magistrate can do something then that magistrate
can't do that thing. There are others who say that there are other sources
of law, principally ancient Roman law and custom, that can properly be used
to supplement the written law as long as the written law doesn't explicitly
contradict them. We don't need to consider which of those groups is right.
We need only observe that the consul must be in the latter group, because
after due consideration he decided that he, as consul, did have the power to
deal with the petitio, despite the fact that nothing can be found in the
written law of Nova Roma that gives him this power. He must, in fact, have
drawn this power from ancient Roman law and practice: of course in the
ancient republic a consul did have the power to preside over judicial
proceedings. Personally, for what it's worth, I agree with him.

So Albucius then had to consider whether to accept or reject the petitio,
applying the test in chapter II of the lex Salicia judiciaria. The lex
Salicia doesn't say that the accused person needs to be notified at this
stage or allowed to say anything about it. But of course we should bear in
mind that in the formulary procedure, on which the lex Salicia is very
closely based, the accused person would necessarily have been physically
present at this stage and would have been able to (and in fact would have
been asked to) participate in the discussion. We should also bear in mind
that, regardless of Roman precedent, it is probably sensible for a
magistrate to involve the accused person at this stage, in case that person
is able to point out a good reason why the petitio should not be accepted;
otherwise the the good reason will only be pointed out *after* the
magistrate has already accepted the petitio, and the magistrate will have
revisit the decision to accept it. Nonetheless, I don't say that there was
any legal obligation on Albucius to involve Major in things at this stage,
and he decided not to. Whether he had any discussions with Metellus about
it I don't know. But he accepted the petitio and, in accordance with the
lex, told Major that he had done so.

This is, of course, where I became involved, because Major asked me to be
her advocate. I quickly got in touch with Albucius and Metellus to say that
I was acting as advocate and that the first thing I would be doing was to
request a reconsideration of the decision to accept the petitio because it
did not, I argued, pass the legal test in ch. II of the lex. At this point
two curious and surprising things happened.

The first was that Albucius indicated that he was not prepared to
communicate with me directly about the case at this stage. This was, he
later explained, because the lex Salicia does not explicitly say that
advocates can be used until the trial itself begins, and he did not want to
do anything that was not explicitly required by the lex. If you contrast
this with his decision that he had the power to deal with the petitio
despite having no explicit authority in written law to do so, you will see
why I call this curious and surprising.

The second curious and surprising thing was that Albucius told Major that he
would not consider any challenge to his acceptance of the petitio. He had
not given her, or anyone else as far as I know, a chance to make any
comments before he accepted the petitio about whether it passed the legal
test for acceptance, and he was not going to give her a chance to make such
comments after he had accepted it. There was to be no opportunity for Major
to point out what she said were solid legal reasons why the petitio was not
acceptable according to the test set out in the lex Salicia. Albucius did
not explain his refusal to hear these arguments. He had decided that the
petitio passed the test. He must presumably have believed, therefore,
either that it was totally impossible that he had missed anything when he
made that decision, or else that it didn't matter whether his decision was
legally right or wrong. Curious and surprising, I say again; and I'm going
to go a little further and suggest that perhaps it's beginning to be
slightly worrying.

So the process continued. P. Memmius invited both parties to make
representations to him before he drew up the formula. The lex Salicia did
not explicitly require him to do this: in fact it gives no indication at all
that anything should be done between notifying the parties that the petitio
has been accepted and issuing the formula. But neither does the lex say
that this should not happen, and it is both eminently sensible and in
accordance with the way the Roman formulary procedure worked, and I praise
Albucius for doing it. I do note, however, that - as I'm sure you've
noticed already - his position regarding exactly how the lex should be
interpreted and applied seemed at this point to be oscillating quite
dramatically between 'I shall do nothing that the lex does not explicitly
require me to do' and 'I shall do what I think appropriate so long as the
lex does not forbid it.'

Anyway, I did duly make representations to him on M. Hortensia's behalf.
Some of them were about procedure. I argued, for example, that there was a
substantial risk that he would be seen as prejudiced against Major, in the
sense that he would appear to have already made up his mind about important
disputed issues in the case: he had made public statements criticizing
Major's decisions to place people on moderation (which was what the case was
all about) and had vetoed two of those decisions himself, and moreover there
were indications that Metellus would actually be using those vetoes as
evidence that the decisions in question were illegal. This raised the
possibility that the court would be considering questions that its presiding
magistrate had already expressed his opinion about in public, and making its
decision based on evidence that included statements and actions by the
presiding magistrate; clearly, I said, there was a serious risk that the
court would not be seen as independent and unbiased. I also argued that the
petitio actionis was too vague for Major to respond to it or to make useful
suggestions about what the formula ought to say, and more detail ought to be
provided by Metellus before the formula was drawn up. In particular, I
proposed that Albucius adopt the procedure that was followed at this point
under the formulary system, namely that the prosecutor should write a
proposed formula and the accused should then respond to it. I had real
hopes that he might do this, since he had already followed the formulary
procedure by holding this discussion before writing the formula. At the
same time, I also put forward as much of a defence to the substance of the
charge as Major was able to provide at that point, given the vagueness of
the allegations. This included raising various issues related to the
interpretation of the offence as it was defined in the lex Salicia poenalis,
ch. 17.1.

To my considerable surprise, the next thing Albucius did was to issue a
formula. In this formula, he said he had 'duly taken in account' my
arguments, but he did not say what his decisions were about any of the
questions they raised, let alone give any reasons for those decisions. He
simply did not give any indication of having made any attempt to resolve
them. He had evidently decided to go ahead as presiding magistrate in spite
of my suggestion that he might appear prejudiced: had he decided that there
was no risk, or that there was a risk but it didn't matter, or something
else? He had evidently decided not to ask Metellus to give any more detail
about his allegations or to propose a draft formula, but he hadn't told
Major that he wasn't going to do this, so right up to the issuing of the
formula we had no idea whether we were going to get any more details or not
and whether we would have to respond to a proposed formula. Does it matter?
you may ask. It does matter, for three main reasons. First, any decision
by a magistrate can be overruled by that magistrate's colleague, and appeal
to another magistrate to do exactly this was a well-established part of
ancient Roman judicial process. But in order to ask a magistrate to
overrule his colleague's decision, you have to actually know what that
decision is. By not telling us what he had decided, Albucius made it
impossible for us to do anything to challenge those decisions. Secondly,
even if we had not wanted to appeal against any of those decisions, we
needed to know what they were in order to know how the trial was going to
proceed. For example, I had also put forward various arguments about what
would happen if the case were transferred to another presiding magistrate.
I'd done this partly in case Albucius accepted my argument that he should
not preside over the case himself, and partly because elections for the
praetura were coming up and I thought it was quite possible that he was
intending to issue the formula, then give Metellus some time to collect
evidence (which was normal in ancient Roman trials), and then, after new
praetores had been elected, to hand over the case to one of them. His
failure to respond to these arguments or tell us what he had decided meant
that we had no idea how he intended to deal with this issue: would he
transfer it to another magistrate or keep it himself? If he transferred it,
would he expect the new magistrate to follow his formula? We didn't know,
and therefore we couldn't plan. And the third reason this failure matters,
which is perhaps the most important reason, is that without giving
on-the-record responses to my arguments he left the questions I'd raised
unresolved, as far as anyone could tell (or can tell now). How can we be
satisfied that these questions were properly dealt with, especially when one
of them concerns doubts about the independence and objectivity of the
presiding magistrate himself, if we have no idea what his decisions were and
how he justified them? At this point I can tell you that I was very
seriously worried about the way these proceedings were being conducted.

At the same time that Albucius said he had 'duly taken in account' the
documents I'd sent him, he also said that these 'will be sent to the
tribunal', i.e. to the judex, who was to be T. Julius. The person who was
going to actually decide the outcome of the case. There are two things
about this that are a bit worrying. One is that there was no reason to send
the documents to Sabinus. They were documents about the formula, how it
should be written, whether it should be written at all, what should be in
it. Those things were a matter for Albucius alone to decide, and he had
done so. He did not give any indication in advance that they would be given
to the judex. There was no reason to give them to the judex because they
were not designed to have anything to do with the matters that the judex had
to consider. In this particular case I couldn't see anything that would
actually cause a problem if the judex saw it, so I didn't make any formal
objection; but the fact that Albucius decided, without consultation and
without warning, to send the judex documents that weren't intended for his
consumption is another indication of a not entirely reassuring attitude to
the proceedings. What's more important - and this really is important - is
that the judex should on no account have had access to any documents that
were not also available to both parties. And it seems that he did. Because
Albucius' comment about taking the documents into account and sending them
to the judex was not just about the documents I'd sent, but about 'the
various documents sent to me, specially by the reus'. Which implies, at
least to me, that there were some other documents that were *not* sent by
the accused, Major, which must presumably have been sent by the only other
person involved, namely Metellus. We had not seen these documents. We had
had no opportunity to respond to them. And, for all I know, Metellus would
never have seen the documents I sent either, if not for the fact that I had
sent him copies myself. Now, it would have been bad enough if Albucius had
received documents that we hadn't seen; but what's much worse is that these
documents were then sent to the judex, and we still hadn't seen them.
Meaning that the judex, who had to make the ultimate decision, would be
making that decision based on documents that we hadn't seen and couldn't
challenge, disagree with, explain, accept, agree with, or respond to in any
way at all. That would not have been allowed in an ancient Roman court, it
would not be allowed in the criminal courts where I work in the UK, and
there is nothing anywhere in the written law of Nova Roma that suggests it
should happen here.

At this point I should say something about the appointment of the judex. I
think someone may have pointed out on this e-mail list already that this is
in contravention of the lex Salicia poenalis, ch. 10.1, which says that a
case like this ought to have been heard by a panel of ten judices. Albucius
was aware of this, and discussed it with me (and perhaps with Metellus too:
I don't know, because this was another occasion on which things were allowed
to be said by one party without the other party knowing what was said), and
after I had consulted my client I informed him that she did not object to
having T. Julius as a single judex. So I do not complain about this. But
once again I note that this appears to be Albucius not only adding to but
actually pretty much overriding the written law according to his own view of
what was appropriate. I just ask you to remember this if we ever in this
story find him justifying any particular procedural decision by saying that
he did exactly what was required by the lex and did not feel that he could
legitimately do anything different.

Now, let's talk about the formula itself, shall we? I think we should,
because it's a remarkable document. It's remarkable in bearing almost no
resemblance whatsoever to an ancient Roman formula, to what the lex Salicia
judiciaria clearly intends a formula to be, or to anything that could
possibly make sense within the system that the leges Saliciae create. But
before we look at the formula in detail, we need to take a step back and
look at the Salician system as a whole. Because one of the best ways to
understand a piece of legislation, and therefore to interpret it when it is
unclear, is to look at it as a whole and try to understand what it is
supposed to accomplish. I've already said something about its similarity to
the ancient Roman formulary system, but let's put that aside for a moment
and just look at it in its own terms. Its first substantive provision, ch.
I, says, 'Any citizen of Nova Roma shall be able to bring an action against
another citizen of Nova Roma.' So it's clear immediately that we're dealing
with a system that's fundamentally about disputes between citizens. It
isn't about the state against the citizen, or the citizen against the state.
It isn't about the court having to deal with a certain situation with the
help of citizens. It's about two citizens having a dispute about a
particular thing and the court providing a mechanism to settle that dispute.
More light is shed on the nature of the system by ch. III: 'If the claim is
dismissed by the praetores, the actor shall be able to present his case
again to the praetores in the future, waiting for two new praetores to be
elected by the Comitia if necessary.' What that tells us is this: if
someone brings a complaint to the court and that complaint is badly framed
or doesn't fit within the framework of the law or has some other flaw, it is
not up to the court to investigate or to try to help that person shape his
complaint into something that would be valid and acceptable. The court is
not supposed to help the parties or take over parts of their jobs. It's
their dispute, and the court's job is simply to arbitrate by choosing one
side or the other as the winner. I'll pass over the chapters that deal
specifically with the formula because I'll need to come back to them soon,
but it's enough for now to say that the formula 'instructs the judices on
the decision they must take'. Let's move on to the trial itself, and to ch.
XII: 'The actor shall present evidence to back his demands, and then the
reus shall present evidence to back his defense.' This will sound very
familiar to North Americans, Britons, Australians, New Zealanders, and many
others, but we should bear in mind that it isn't the way all trials work in
every part of the world. There are some legal systems, called inquisitorial
systems, in which the judge will take an active role in investigating the
complaint that's been raised by gathering facts, questioning witnesses, and
ordering documents to be produced. The alternative, namely an adversarial
system, is what is familiar in countries that inherited the British legal
system, as well as in many international tribunals and others: the judge is
expected to act as a detached arbiter, letting the two sides produce their
own evidence and ultimately choosing between them. The lex Salicia quite
clearly envisages an adversarial system, not an inquisitorial one. It's up
to the two parties to put forward their own evidence and arguments. The
court is not there to help either side or to become involved in the case.
Nor is anyone else expected to get involved or put forward evidence or
arguments. No one else is mentioned in the section that deals with the
trial process except the praetor, and the only thing it says about that is
that '[t]he praetor shall be the final judge to determine what pieces of
evidence are relevant to the case.' Nothing about producing evidence or
putting forward arguments or making statements. So it's very clearly an
adversarial system. And a final thing that makes this even clearer is what
happens at the end of the trial. According to ch. XV, after the parties
have finished presenting their evidence and arguments the praetor then
'call[s] for sententia' and the judices vote. They have only two options:
to condemn or to absolve the accused. They can't give reasons for their
decision; they can't decide that the truth lies somewhere in between the two
options they've been presented with. All they can do is award the victory
to one side or the other. Another feature of the system that's evident from
the lex is that there's a division of labour between the praetor and the
judex. The praetor is in charge at the initial stage of receiving the
petitio, deciding whether it's acceptable, and, if it is, drawing up a
formula. After that the praetor continues to be involved, but only on
procedural and technical points: whether evidence is or is not admissible,
deciding whether the trial should be public or secret, when to call for the
judices to vote. In other words the magistrate is in charge of procedure
and of keeping the trial running. What the judex does is to actually hear
the evidence and the arguments and make the decision. There's no indication
that the judex is supposed to have anything to do with procedure: all the
procedural points that are mentioned are explicitly assigned to the praetor.
The only thing the judex is explicitly commanded to do is to vote.

Let's now go back to that point about the resemblance to ancient Roman
procedure. Because it's possible that many of the things the lex
specifically says are consistent with the ancient procedure but it still has
a different over-all character. Except, no, it has exactly the same
over-all character! The formulary system was adversarial, not
inquisitorial. The formulary system didn't involve the magistrate helping
either side or taking over any part of their jobs. The formulary system
didn't allow anyone to present evidence and arguments except the two parties
involved in the dispute. The formulary system had a separation of roles
between the magistrate and the judex, in which the magistrate handled
procedure and technical points while the judex listened to the evidence and
arguments and then made the decision, which could only be one option or the
other. The whole design of the system is the same. But still, if only we
had some sort of hint that this was what the lex was intended to do. Maybe
if we look at the preamble, where it says, 'These procedures are based on
the Roman republican procedural model, both because it probably is the model
that best suits Nova Roma and because it is the basis for all the procedural
systems of modern Western nations. Some concessions to Nova Roma's
particular structure have had to be made; but, in spirit, it follows the
ancient Roman procedure.' Yeah, that would do. In fact I'd say that's
pretty much the legislative equivalent of hitting a magistrate round the
face with a kipper and saying 'Interpret this lex in accordance with the
spirit of the ancient procedures it's explicitly based on!' Wouldn't you?

It's important to get all that clear in our minds before we look at what the
lex says the formula should be like, because this bit of the lex is, if you
look at it on its own, not all that clear. I'm going to quote it in full:

---
V. Once a claim has been accepted by a praetor, that same praetor shall
prepare a formula to present to the iudices. The formula shall consist of a
logical statement that instructs the iudices on the decision they must take.
The formula shall be structured into four parts: institutio iudicis,
intentio, demonstratio and condemnatio. An explanation of each part follows:

A. INSTITVTIO IVDICIS: This clause appoints a certain iudex to judge the
case (see below).

B. INTENTIO: This part expresses the claim of the actor; i.e., it shall
express what the actor seeks by petitioning the praetor. There are two kinds
of intentio: intentio certa, when the facts that lead to the actor's claim
are so obvious that they do not need to be proved, and intentio incerta,
when the actor must prove the facts that justify his claim.

Example: Intentio Certa: "According to the contract signed by Titius..."
Intentio Incerta: "If it is proved that Ticius owes Gaius 1,000 sestertii,
Gaius shall pay Ticius that same amount".

C. DEMONSTRATIO: This is the clause that further defines an intentio
incerta.

D. CONDEMNATIO: This is the clause that allows the iudices to condemn or
absolve.

Example: a formula could be something like this: "Let Sulpicius be the
iudex. If it is proved that Ticius owes Gaius 1,000 sestertii, you, iudex,
shall condemn Ticius to pay 1,000 sestertii to Gaius; else, you shall acquit
Ticius."

The clauses would be: Institutio Iudicis: "Let Sulpicius be the iudex."
Demonstratio: "If it is proved that ..." Intentio: "... Ticius owes Gaius
1,000 sestertii ..." Condemnatio: "... you, iudex, shall condemn Ticius to
pay 1,000 sestertii to Gaius; otherwise, you shall acquit Ticius."
---

There it is. Now, you can get bogged down in some of these phrases. What
does 'express' mean in B? What does 'further define' mean in C? And so on.
But the lex also gives you a handy example, which makes it pretty clear:
'Let Sulpicius be the judex. If it is proved that Ticius owes Gaius HS
1,000, you, judex, shall condemn Ticius to pay HS 1,000 to Gaius; otherwise,
you shall acquit Gaius.' And it tells you which bit is which. 'Let
Sulpicius be the judex'. That's the institutio judicis, the clause that
'appoints a certain judex to judge the case'. Okay, so you choose a judex
and then you say 'Let [that person] be judex', that's pretty simple. Next
you have a demonstratio that 'further defines' the next bit. How does it do
that? Well, apparently it does that by saying 'If it is proved that...' I
admit I'm not entirely sure how that counts as 'further defining', but I
suspect it probably means that it further limits (which is what 'defines'
literally means) the grammatical and procedural role of the next clause. So
without the 'If' clause you'd just have a formula saying 'Ticius owes Gaius
HS 1,000'. But then you add the demonstratio and it says 'If it is proved
that Ticius owes Gaius...' So it makes it clear (demonstrat) that the
following clause is what the prosecutor has to prove. The next bit, the
intentio, 'express the claim of the actor' by basically summarizing the
prosecutor's allegations. The prosecutor says 'Ticius owes me HS 1,000!'.
The intentio says 'Ticius owes Gaius HS 1,000'. Very straightforward. And
finally the condemnatio, which 'allows the judices to condemn or absolve'.
So it says that the judex can condemn Ticius, and says what to condemn him
to do (i.e. what the penalty is), or acquit him. And combined with the
demonstratio (the 'if' clause) it tells the judex in what circumstances to
condemn and in what circumstances to acquit. It all makes a fair bit of
sense when you use the helpful example. And you can cross-check this with
the wider overview of the system that we've just looked at to make sure it
fits with that. Which it does! It's an adversarial system, hence the
instruction to the judex is to wait and see whether the prosecutor proves
his allegation or not, and then to give the appropriate verdict by choosing
one or the other option (he has proved it, condemno, or he hasn't proved it,
absolvo). It's got that division of labour, because it contains the judex'
instructions for the whole trial: just sit there and work out whether Gaius
has proved it or not. It doesn't say anything about making procedural
decisions or managing the progress of the case. Just one simple but
important task. And, just in case we aren't completely happy with that
interpretation, let's cross-check it again by considering the ancient
formulary procedure that the lex itself explicitly tells us is the spirit of
the system it creates. What do we find? We find that the example given is
pretty much a direct translation of an actual Roman formula from an actual
Roman legal text-book, and that it's analyzed into exactly the same
constituent parts as the Romans analyzed their formulae into. Success! Now
we understand what a formula should do: it should name the judex, take the
allegation of the prosecutor, put it into the form of a conditional
sentence, and tell the judex to condemn the accused if the allegation is
proved and to acquit if it isn't. So in the the case of M. Hortensia I was
expecting a formula something like this: 'Let [name] be judex. If it is
proved that M. Hortensia [did something that amounts to abusus potestatis],
you, judex, shall condemn M. Hortensia to [some specific penalty];
otherwise, you shall acquit her.' I didn't know quite what was going to go
into those brackets because, as I've said, the allegation in the petitio
actionis was pretty vague, but I expected that the necessary detail would be
given so that the judex would know what he was actually supposed to be
doing.

Shall we look at the actual formula? Let's do that. Here it is. Please
read it. All of it:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Novaromatribunalis/message/314

Finished? Well, that wasn't quite what we were expecting, was it? In fact
it looks nothing like a Roman formula, nothing like the sort of formula the
lex appears to have in mind, and nothing like the example that is
specifically set out in the lex. Its article 2 merely states that 'the
present case is... an "intentio incerta"', which shows an obvious failure to
understand the lex. The lex says very clearly that 'intentio' is the name
of part of the formula and an 'intentio incerta' is a type of intentio to be
used in certain types of case: an intentio incerta is not a type of case, it
is a type of intentio. The lex does not require the formula to specify
whether the intentio is certa or incerta, and the example provided in the
lex doesn't do this. The section of the formula titled 'demonstratio' has
nothing whatsoever in common with the demonstratio of the example in the
lex, and in fact nowhere in the entire formula is there even a trace of an
'if' clause. Nor does the formula tell the judex in what circumstances to
absolve or condemn: it simply advises him to do one and not to do the other.
And in fact this brings me to what's even worse about this formula: it isn't
just utterly inadequate, it's completely incompatible with the obvious
interpretation of the lex and of the principles of the system the lex is
there to create. It clearly has no truck at all with the idea of the
presiding magistrate being an impartial figure who doesn't intervene to help
either side or to contribute his own arguments or evidence. It 'interprets'
Q. Metellus' petitio (thus implicitly supporting my earlier point that the
petitio in itself was not sufficiently clear), and then goes into extensive
discussion of whether the legal reasoning in the petitio is correct and
whether Metellus has produced any evidence to support it. There is not the
slightest indication in the lex that a formula should do this, and there is
every indication that it should not, especially if we interpret it in the
way I've suggested above as the obvious, sensible, coherent, and Roman way
to read it. It was unfair to Metellus to criticize him at that stage for
failing to produce evidence: the lex doesn't say that the prosecutor has to
produce any evidence until the trial begins, the sensible interpretation of
the lex doesn't require it, the Roman formulary system did not require it,
and as far as I know Metellus had never been told by Albucius that he should
produce any. Nor was it remotely appropriate to discuss the legal reasoning
of the petitio in the formula. The lex does not provide any room at all for
such discussions in its description of the formula or in its example. The
place for analysis of the legal basis of the petitio is clearly chapter II
of the lex judiciaria, where the presiding magistrate has to decide whether
the petitio is 'incongruent', i.e. 'not supported by law, precedent or
common sense'. It could hardly be clearer in the lex: if a petitio says
that someone should be punished for X and the presiding magistrate's
intepretation of the law is that X is not illegal, then that's an
incongruent claim and the magistrate should dismiss it. What the magistrate
should not do is accept the petitio and then write a formula in which he
says that in his opinion the claim is legally flawed (i.e. incongruent)!
And then, finally, the formula fails to tell the judex what his task is at
all, which is the whole point of the formula. It does not give the judex
two clear options to choose between, which is what the judex needs because
the lex quite clearly gives him only two possible options when returning his
sententia. It does not specify any penalty to be imposed if the judex
condemns the accused, which is what the condemnatio is for and which is also
plainly required elsewhere in the lex, which refers in ch. XV and XVII to
the inclusion of a penalty in the formula. In short, the formula that was
issued in this case does not do *any* of the things the lex required it to
do except naming the judex, and it *does* do several things that are not
only not required by the lex but are clearly incompatible with it and that
betray at best a complete misunderstanding of the lex, including things that
were unfair in themselves such as criticizing the prosecutor for failing to
do something he wasn't required or asked to do, giving an opinion about the
prosecutor's legal reasoning, and, worst of all, utterly compromising the
impartiality of both the magistrate and the judex by telling the judex what
decision he should make about the case.

Well, when I saw that I was pretty perplexed, I can tell you. But even then
I hadn't fully understood the extent of Albucius' misinterpretation of the
Salician system. I did my best to make sense of the formula within the
context of the lex, and what I came up with was this: for some reason he
must have decided that, rather than dismissing the petitio, the appropriate
thing to do was to accept the petitio but then order the judex to
automatically absolve M. Hortensia on the grounds that the petitio was
incongruent. It was a bizarre way of doing things, but it was at least a
way of arriving at the same result as what ought to have happened earlier,
namely dismissing the petitio. It also had analogies in modern legal
systems: in many 'common law' countries, for example, if a jury has been
empanelled to hear a case and then it becomes clear to the judge that the
prosecution has no merit at all the judge will often order the jury to find
the accused not guilty without further ado. I thought Albucius was doing
something like that, because, well, that was the only way I could make any
sense at all of what he was doing.

The next step, then, was obviously for T. Julius the judex to do what the
presiding magistrate had instructed him to do. But this didn't happen. In
fact, what happened - imagine my bafflement, folks! - was that the trial
went ahead. Yes, that's right: the presiding magistrate had issued a
formula telling the judex that the prosecution had no merit and was legally
flawed, and then the trial carried on as if nothing had happened. What? I
mean, what? At this stage I could no longer make any sense at all of what
was going on, and I wrote to P. Memmius and to T. Julius to express my
concerns. Their responses showed several things. First, they showed that
neither of them was observing the clear division of roles in the lex
judiciaria between the judex (whose duty is to choose between the
prosecutor's case and the defence case) and the presiding magistrate (whose
duty is to ensure proper procedures are followed and to make decisions about
the admissibility or evidence, the management of the schedule, &c.). It was
clear, on the contrary, that the judex was making decisions about procedure
and was in charge of the schedule, and that the presiding magistrate
accepted no responsibility for ensuring that the judex applied the correct
interpretation of the law (in fact Albucius explicitly said that he could
not impose his interpretation of the law on Sabinus, although this is
precisely what he was supposed to do). In fact Sabinus, on top of making
decisions about procedure, even said that he had the power to decide what
penalty to impose, and could change his mind about this at any time during
the trial, showing a total misunderstanding of the leges Saliciae, which
make it quite clear that the penalty is to be determined by the presiding
magistrate in the formula and not by the judex, and that the penalty stated
in the formula is to be imposed automatically when the accused person is
condemned, with no possibility of changing it during the trial. Meanwhile
Albucius said that he could not disregard or radically reinterpret the leges
of Nova Roma in order to follow Roman custom or his own idea of what was
best, even though, as I've mentioned earlier, this is exactly what he had
done at least twice before in the court of these judicial proceedings. He
also said that the ancient Roman formulary system did not work like the
system created by the leges Saliciae, which shows, I suggest, that he had
completely misunderstood the leges Saliciae since they patently intend to
create, and do create, a system that works very very like the formulary
system. What's more, Albucius himself said during this discussion that he
found the lex judiciaria very difficult to understand, and expressed the
thought that perhaps part of the problem was his understanding of English.
And yet he was not prepared to enter into any discussion with me about what
the lex meant or how it ought to be interpreted, and he rejected the
possibility of using the ancient Roman system, which the preamble of the lex
specifically cites, as a guide to its interpretation. In fact he even
rejected the guidance that was included within the lex itself: when I
pointed out that the formula didn't match the example provided in ch. V of
the lex, or the explanation of how the example related to the earlier
provisions about the contents of the formula, he said that he regarded these
things as a non-mandatory explanation designed to help the magistrate, and
therefore he didn't feel obliged to follow them. Yes, you read that
correctly: he said he had a lot of trouble understanding the lex, and he
said that the example in the lex was there to help him understand it, and he
said that this was why he thought it was okay to do something completely
different from the example. I know, my mind boggled too. And perhaps even
more mind-boggling was the moment when he basically agreed with me that when
he interpreted the lex judiciaria in the way he had done he discovered that
the lex required him to do things that made very little sense and were often
entirely pointless, whereas my interpretation was coherent and made sense.
This did not, apparently, make him consider that there was any chance of his
interpretation being wrong and mine being right.

Well, after a few e-mails that discussion was duly closed down by both P.
Memmius and T. Julius, who made it clear that they did not want to hear any
more about it. So, on we went with the trial. There was still no clear
definition of what Q. Metellus had to prove before Sabinus could condemn M.
Hortensia. There was still no specified penalty to be imposed if he did.
We still had a judex who thought he was in charge of questions of procedure,
schedule, and law, and we still had a presiding magistrate who let the judex
carry on in this way. In fact I know, because Albucius told me, that they
had had some private e-mail correspondence about the case before the trial
began, and it may well be that they carried on doing so. You remember that
earlier I complained about the judex being given documents that had not been
seen by both parties. Private (i.e. secret) correspondence between the
judex and the presiding magistrate is even more worrying, because it means
the judex has seen things that *neither* party has seen. I have no idea
what they discussed, except that I know they talked about the schedule. I
suspect they also talked about the role of the judex, because otherwise it's
unlikely that both of them would have independently come up with the same
completely misconceived interpretation of the lex. They may have talked
about any number of things, including the merits of the case. We already
know that Albucius saw nothing wrong with giving Sabinus advice about what
decision to make, because that is precisely what he did in the formula, and
that is precisely what he would later do again in his call for a sententia.
Perhaps he did it privately as well. In any case, any correspondence
between the judex and the presiding magistrate should be shown to the
parties, otherwise they can have no idea what is being said and no
opportunity to respond to any points that might affect the judex' opinion
about the case. This is very basic stuff, people. Any lawyer in any
civilized country would be appalled at what was going on in this court.

So, anyway, it was time for opening speeches, and Metellus made his speech.
And now, at last, came the clarifications that I had been consistently
asking Albucius to require and that Albucius had not required: Metellus
voluntarily gave them, because he saw that it wouldn't be a fair trial
without them. He abandoned the original vague scope of the petitio actionis
and now said that there was only one act that he said was an abusus
potestatis, namely the second edictum issued by Major on 6 June. It was an
abusus potestatis, he argued, because she restricted C. Equitius' freedom to
participate in a public forum and because - and this is crucial - she knew
that it was illegal to do so. He asked Sabinus to condemn her only if he,
Metellus, could prove beyond reasonable doubt not only that she restricted
Cato's freedom but also that she knew it was illegal to do so. In my
opening argument I accepted and adopted this approach, and agreed that
Sabinus should not condemn Major unless Metellus proved beyond reasonable
doubt that she knew or believed she was doing something illegal. And I also
said this: 'In view of the agreement between the two parties about this
element - the necessity of knowledge, i.e. intention - I do not suppose it
is necessary to spend any more time on the point. But if, despite our
agreement, you feel inclined to doubt that this element is a necessary and
fundamental part of the case that must be proven to you, then I ask you to
say so now in order that I may try to persuade you of it.' Sabinus did not
say anything about it. But just to make absolutely sure, I contacted him
privately (sending a copy also to Albucius and to Metellus, because, as I've
mentioned, it is not appropriate for one party to say things to the judex
without the other party knowing) before I closed my case, and I asked, 'May
I assume that you do not need to be persuaded any further on this point, or
would you like to hear more argument about it?' He replied (again with
copies to Metellus and Albucius) that there was no need for me to say
anything more about it. So right up until the end of the trial, after
Metellus and I had both had our last opportunity to address any remaining
points of law or fact, both I and Metellus believed that if Sabinus was not
persuaded beyond reasonable doubt that Major believed she was doing
something illegal then he would absolve her, and we both believed that
Sabinus agreed.

Obviously this meant that Major's state of mind was an important issue in
the case: did she do something she believed to be illegal? Without proving
that, Metellus could not win the case. So I called various witnesses to
give evidence about this. I asked them whether they thought she would do
anything she believed was illegal. They all said they thought it was very
unlikely. Naturally enough, Metellus wanted to cross-examine them. But
Sabinus prevented him, saying, 'I'm sorry to say that the
questions you presented here have not any connection with the case...
Therefore these questions are not allowed.' There are two things to notice
here. The first is that Sabinus was making a decision about the
admissibility of evidence. The lex Salicia gives the judex no power to make
such a decision. On the contrary, every decision of this kind that is
specifically mentioned in the lex is said to be within the power of the
praetor, not of the judex. This is also in agreement with the Roman
formulary system. Moreover, ch. XIII says 'The praetor shall be the final
judge to determine what pieces of evidence are relevant to the case.' So
decisions about the relevance of evidence are not only implicitly but
explicitly the preserve of the presiding magistrate, not the judex. Sabinus
exercised a power that was not his, and Albucius allowed him to do so. The
second point is that Sabinus was, at least arguably, wrong. The questions
Metellus asked were designed to rebut Major's case that she did not do, and
would not have done, anything she thought was illegal - which, as I said
above, was a crucial part of what Metellus had to disprove in order to win.
He wanted to do this by undermining the credibility of one of my witnesses
and by directly challenging the statement of another who said that he had
never heard any suggestion that Major was contemplating acting illegally.
The questions, in my opinion, were entirely relevant to the case, and
Metellus ought to have been allowed to ask them. It was unfair to prevent
him, and it was also contrary to the lex Salicia for this decision to be
made by the judex.

And the trial went on. We made our closing remarks. Then came the part of
the process described by the lex judiciaria, ch. XIV: 'Once both parties
have presented their evidence, each party shall have the opportunity to make
one final statement in front of the judices, with the actor speaking in the
first place. Then the praetor shall call for a sententia (sentence) from the
judices, according to paragraph XV, reminding the judices that, in case of
doubt, they must *not* condemn the reus.' I'm just going to repeat that
last sentence: 'Then the praetor shall call for a sententia (sentence) from
the judices, according to paragraph XV, reminding the judices that, in case
of doubt, they must *not* condemn the reus'. What, then, does the presiding
magistrate have to do at this stage? He has to call for a sententia, i.e.
ask the judex to deliver his verdict, and he had to remind the judex not to
condemn the accused if he has any doubt about her guilt. Those are the two
things, and the only two things, that the lex calls for the presiding
magistrate to do at this stage.

Let's see what Albucius did:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Novaromatribunalis/message/360

Did you read it? All of it. Please, do read the whole thing. This is
important. We're near the end of my message, and this is possibly the most
important part of the whole thing.

Okay, now what did Albucius do here? What he did was this: he took over
Metellus' job of prosecuting the case, and he also took over Sabinus' job of
settling the case. Metellus, as I mentioned earlier, began the trial by
clarifying exactly what his accusation was: Major's second edictum of 6 June
was illegal, he said, and she knew it was illegal. That's what he set out
to prove, and that's the basis on which he wanted Sabinus to condemn her,
not on any other basis. Issuing that edictum is the only thing he said
amounted to a criminal offence, nothing else. If he didn't prove that
beyond reasonable doubt, then she should be absolved. That's what he said,
and that's what I said, and that's what Sabinus indicated he accepted. So
that's what he argued for, and that's what I argued against. That's what he
produced evidence to support, and that's what I produced evidence to refute.
Like good lawyers, we did not waste the court's time with anything that was
not directly relevant to that central question: was the second edictum of 6
June illegal, and did Major believe it was illegal? That's what the whole
trial was about, from start to finish. But the presiding magistrate
obviously wasn't happy with the way Metellus was doing his job, because
after all the evidence had been produced and all the arguments made, he
decided to mount a whole different prosecution of his own. He talks about
'a last argument of the actor, according which the violation, by Hortensia,
of the laws of Nova Roma would result first of the fact that her moderation
decisions have been vetoed, and second that she would have refused to obey
these vetos'. He 'considers' it, and he decides that 'it has been
demonstrated, from the pieces of evidence brought by both parties, that, on
this only point, former praetor Hortensia Maior "used (her) magisterial
powers to act against the lawful rights of a person", here G. Equitius Cato,
by re-issuing twice on June 6, and without legal base a measure of
moderation which should have been considered by her as having ended on June
1.' Let's be clear what's happening here. This is not 'a last argument of
the actor'. Metellus *never* argued that Major had committed any crime
whatsoever by means of refusing to obey vetoes. He made it absolutely clear
throughout the trial that the only relevance of the vetoes was as evidence
that she must have known she was doing something illegal. According to his
case, her refusal to obey vetoes was evidence of a crime, but it was not a
crime itself. The argument that 'the violation, by Hortensia, of the laws
of Nova Roma would result... of the fact... that she would have refused to
obey these vetoes' was *invented by the presiding magistrate of the this
trial* and was never even hinted at in this court until after both the
prosecutor and the advocate for the defence had closed their cases.

And there's a second point. At the risk of being tedious, let me remind you
once again that Metellus consistently throughout the trial said that there
was only one criminal edictum and it was the second edictum of 6 June. Only
one. I specifically asked him about this (message 323 in the court archive)
and he confirmed it (message 328). So all our arguments on both sides were
concerned with whether that one edictum was criminal or not. But what does
the presiding magistrate say? 'Hortensia Maior "used (her) magisterial
powers to act against the lawful rights of a person"... by re-issuing twice
on June 6... a measure of moderation...' *By re-issuing twice*. What he's
saying here is that the crime was issuing *both* the edicta of 6 June. That
is another thing that Metellus *never* said. This is not Albucius agreeing
with Metellus' argument; this is Albucius making up a whole new argument of
his own. And look, here's a third example of the same thing: 'its cause
cannot be find but in the will that Hortensia had at this time that G.
Equitius Cato be sanctioned, whatever the legality of such sanctions'.
*Whatever the legality of such sanctions*. In other words, he is saying
that Major is guilty because she did not care whether her actions were legal
or not. But once again this has nothing to do with what Metellus said. He
said that she was guilty because she knew, she *actually knew*, that she was
doing something illegal. Once again, I specifically asked him (message 323
again) to clarify this point: did he say that she could be found guilty on
the basis that she didn't care whether her actions were illegal or not, or
did he say she could only be guilty if she actually knew they were illegal;
again, he confirmed that his argument was based solely on the allegation
that she actually knew they were illegal (message 328). So once again all
our arguments and evidence on both sides were concerned with that point.
But then Albucius says she is guilty because she decided to sanction Cato
'whatever the legality of the sanctions'. Because she acted without caring
whether she was acting illegally or not. The prosecutor of the case - the
person whose very job it is to prove the accused guilty - said that this
would not be enough to make her guilty. But the presiding magistrate, whose
job is to be impartial, overruled the prosecutor and put forward his own
argument that she was guilty even if she didn't think she was acting
illegally.

Folks, there is so much wrong with this I don't even know where to start,
but let's stick with the point I've just alluded to. The presiding
magistrate in a trial should not be putting forward prosecution arguments at
any stage. He is not the prosecutor. There's already somebody doing that
job, and, as it happens in this case, doing it well. It is not the
presiding magistrate's job. In fact if the presiding magistrate is doing
that then not only is he doing something that isn't his job, he's doing the
exact opposite of his job. He's supposed to be independent, impartial,
sitting above the arguments and just making sure the trial runs smoothly.
That's how it was in Roman times, and that's how it's clearly meant to be
under the leges Saliciae even if you read them in complete isolation from
Roman law, which they specifically tell you not to do. If the presiding
magistrate doesn't occupy that role and only that role, the whole system
makes absolutely no sense. It's like having a tennis match in which the
umpire suddenly climbs down from his chair, picks up a racket, and goes and
joins one of the players. Not only have you then got two players unfairly
competing against one, you've also got *no umpire*. And in fact it's worse
than that, because Albucius didn't just become a second prosecutor here. He
became a super-prosecutor. Because he's started out as the boss of the
whole show. He gave Sabinus his instructions. He talked him through the
schedule of the trial, not to mention anything else he may have said to him
in private e-mails that we don't know about. He is a magistrate with the
highest imperium you can get in peace-time, and this court was his court
that he created and that he was running. That's a huge amount of power and
influence. And then he deployed it on behalf of one party against the
other. This is not just some random guy turning up at court and having a go
at prosecuting after the first prosecutor has finished: this is Sabinus'
boss, who is also the highest magistrate in the state, telling Sabinus what
the right answer is. If you think that's fair, I know some delightful
military dictatorships where you'd absolutely love being put on trial.

But let's forget for a minute that the presiding magistrate should not have
been doing this at all. *When* did he do it? He did it after both parties
had closed their cases and there could be no more argument or evidence from
either side. We had spent the whole trial completely focused on proving or
disproving the case as Metellus had argued it. For every argument that
Metellus put forward I had an opportunity to respond to it. For every piece
of evidence he produced I had an opportunity to criticize it. And for every
argument and piece of evidence I deployed Metellus had an opportunity to
deal with it (except for Sabinus' improper rejection of his
cross-examination, which I've already mentioned). And *then* Albucius
reaches into his top hat and pulls out a whole new prosecution case, and I
had absolutely no chance whatsoever to say anything about it. I couldn't
point out its logical flaws, I couldn't say anything about how it misapplied
and misinterpreted the law, I couldn't produce any evidence to rebut its
factual allegations. It was pretty much the equivalent of putting Major on
trial a second time, with a whole new prosecution case, and not letting her
say a single word in her own defence. Have another look at that 'call for a
sententia'. See how it carefully examines and rejects my arguments against
the case it's putting forward? No, you don't, because there were no
arguments against that case, because I wasn't allowed to make any, because I
didn't have even the tiniest hint that that case was going to be happening
until it was too late.

And let's not even get into whether Albucius' arguments were right or not.
We really haven't got time for that. Let's not even ask ourselves whether
it's at all dodgy that Albucius decided Major was guilty because she
disobeyed vetoes, and whose vetoes were they exactly? Oh, that's right,
some of them were Albucius' vetoes! So basically he decided that she was
guilty because she did something he told her not to do. That doesn't in any
way undermine the impartiality and independence of this verdict, does it?
Oh, right, it does. Well, if only somebody had pointed out right at the
beginning of these proceedings that maybe it was a bad idea to have the
trial being presided over by a magistrate who had issued vetoes that were
likely to be used as evidence in the case! Oh, right, somebody did. But
never mind that. Let's move on to what happened next.

What happened next was Sabinus giving a verdict after hearing two different
prosecution cases: one by Metellus, one by Albucius. He condemned Major, so
he must have agreed with one of them but which one? What has Major actually
been found guilty of doing? This is important, people, because part of the
purpose of our criminal law is to deter people from doing things we don't
want them to do. And in order to be deterred, people need to know what it
actually is that they're being deterred from doing. Albucius said Major was
guilty because she disobeyed (his) vetoes, but Metellus never suggested
that. So was she condemned because she disobeyed vetoes or not? Does this
verdict mean that disobeying a veto is a criminal offence or doesn't it? We
have no idea. Metellus said that the crime was issuing the second edictum
of 6 June, but Albucius said that it was only a crime if you look at the two
edicta together. These are not only two different bases of guilt, they're
actually contradictory. Think about it: if both the edicta together make
one crime, then each edictum separately is not a crime (otherwise they'd be
two crimes, not one). So Metellus is saying that the second edictum on its
own was a crime, and Albucius is saying that the second edictum on its own
was *not* a crime. Which version did Sabinus find her guilty of? We don't
know. What is a future magistrate supposed to do with this information?
What exactly is a future magistrate supposed to be deterred from doing? We
have no idea! This verdict has no deterrent effect whatsoever because we
simply don't know what Major has actually been condemned for. By setting
himself up as a second prosecutor Albucius has not only achieved the unfair
and wrongful conviction of M. Hortensia, he has also single-handedly
defeated a major part of the social usefulness of the trial that he was in
charge of. And not only has this verdict, because of the way it came about,
been unfair to Major and unhelpful to the entire community, it's also done
no favours at all for the prosecutor. I want to say for the record that in
my opinion Metellus conducted himself unimpeachably throughout the trial.
He was cooperative and polite at every stage. When Sabinus set an
unrealistic schedule that would have been completely physically impossible
for me to meet, Metellus could have sat back and watched me miss the
deadlines and lose the case as a result, but he didn't: he supported my
objections and asked for a more realistic schedule. He clarified his
specific allegations and explicitly identified his interpretation of the
law, even when the presiding magistrate had consistently failed to require
him to do so, because he knew that justice demanded it. Metellus wanted a
fair fight, and he wanted to win it fairly. He didn't get one. He has been
cheated by this unfair judicial process just as M. Hortensia has, and just
as you have.

Wait, I feel like I've forgotten something. Oh yes, the call for a
sententia. Remember a little while ago I went over what the lex Salicia
says has to be in the call for a sententia, and then I mentioned the fact
that Albucius issued one that contained a whole load of stuff that shouldn't
have been in it, and that's what I've been talking about for the last six
paragraphs? Well, before we finish, let's just check whether the call for a
sententia at least did manage to include all the things the lex required.
It shouldn't be hard, because, remember, there were only two of them. It
had <br/><br/>(Message over 64 KB, truncated)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79151 From: Cato Date: 2010-08-05
Subject: Re: On the trial of M. Hortensia
Cato Liviae Plautae sal.

"I also suggest that the accused in future learn from Major's mistake, and do not agree to a jury composed by one judge only."

Perhaps a *better* lesson might be that in the future, magistrates should not abuse the authority they are given.

Vale,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79152 From: rory12001 Date: 2010-08-05
Subject: Re: Witnessing appointment
Maior Scholasticae Liviaeque spd;
my gratitude to you both. I've studied French, Italian, Russian and German in high school and university and always had my mistakes corrected. It's the only way to learn. I appreciate the help and support.
If only the rest of this list were like you two!
optime vale
Maior

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@...> wrote:
>
> C. Petronius L. Liviae s.p.d.,
>
> > I have been a language teacher for 15 years, and I assure you that the correct attitude is to provide corrections to mistakes. The habit of letting students guess where their mistakes are drives them up the wall. (I will let you look up the meaning of this expression, since this is the method you are so fond of).
>
> I have not such experience, I never wanted to teach anything... but after 7 years of studying English language I was not able to follow a discussion. And that is the sort of all the French pupils studying English... so, I learnt Latin alone, with my own method, and now I write poetries and novels in latin, the last "de Saturnalibus cruentis" will be available on the Circulus website on the beginning of september...
>
> > I never withdrew my statement. I firmly believe that it's not my place to decide whether a senate session was legal or not.
>
> It is not the point... you witness an act which did not happened.
>
> > I did correct "Magisterum" with "Magistrum" before posting, though.
>
> I have to register you in the first Latinitatis decuria.
>
> Optime vale.
>
> C. Petronius Dexter
> Arcoiali scribebat
> Nonis Sextilibus P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79153 From: qvalerius Date: 2010-08-05
Subject: Re: Witnessing appointment
Salve,

In grad school, the professors force you to learn how to correct your own mistakes. Your "training" must have been elementary at best.

Vale.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> Maior Scholasticae Liviaeque spd;
> my gratitude to you both. I've studied French, Italian, Russian and German in high school and university and always had my mistakes corrected. It's the only way to learn. I appreciate the help and support.
> If only the rest of this list were like you two!
> optime vale
> Maior
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@> wrote:
> >
> > C. Petronius L. Liviae s.p.d.,
> >
> > > I have been a language teacher for 15 years, and I assure you that the correct attitude is to provide corrections to mistakes. The habit of letting students guess where their mistakes are drives them up the wall. (I will let you look up the meaning of this expression, since this is the method you are so fond of).
> >
> > I have not such experience, I never wanted to teach anything... but after 7 years of studying English language I was not able to follow a discussion. And that is the sort of all the French pupils studying English... so, I learnt Latin alone, with my own method, and now I write poetries and novels in latin, the last "de Saturnalibus cruentis" will be available on the Circulus website on the beginning of september...
> >
> > > I never withdrew my statement. I firmly believe that it's not my place to decide whether a senate session was legal or not.
> >
> > It is not the point... you witness an act which did not happened.
> >
> > > I did correct "Magisterum" with "Magistrum" before posting, though.
> >
> > I have to register you in the first Latinitatis decuria.
> >
> > Optime vale.
> >
> > C. Petronius Dexter
> > Arcoiali scribebat
> > Nonis Sextilibus P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79154 From: eagled2 Date: 2010-08-05
Subject: New Site Design
Aulus Valerius Barbatus S.D.
Quite a while ago I posted a message asking about a user forum website for communication instead of the email groups to make finding and reading messages easier. At that time I received a reply from on the the website administrators stating that they were working on a new design for the website that integrated all elements of the site better and all utilized a single login. He also mentioned the possibility of including a forum in this new site. I have not been able to find any information on the site regarding the progress of any such project. I was wondering if anyone knows of such a project and if it is still being worked on. I really like the idea of not just the forum but the integrated logins and a different look.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79155 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2010-08-05
Subject: Re: Witnessing appointment
>
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica Q. Valerio Poplicolae quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque
> bonae voluntatis S. P. D.
>
> My goodness! I thought you had shaken the virtual dust of Nova Roma out
> of your caligae, and gone on your way!
>
>
> Salve,
>
> In grad school, the professors force you to learn how to correct your own
> mistakes. Your "training" must have been elementary at best.
>
> ATS: I wouldn¹t say that. On top of her academic preparation elsewhere,
> Plauta has successfully completed an extremely rigorous Latin course devised
> by a major European Latinist, all of whose graduates immediately qualify for
> the First Decuria of Latinitas, and is a fine Latinist. Perhaps your graduate
> school requires this sort of thing, but I certainly encountered no such thing
> anyplace in graduate school, including at some rather selective institutions
> of higher learning. Most of us are fully capable of correcting our mistakes
> once they have been pointed out (and sometimes groaning over them). Those who
> have difficulty spotting their own errors, who cannot distinguish right from
> wrong in any of several fields, may require such additional therapy, but some
> of us do quite well on basics without that sort of remediation, though matters
> of style and the like really do need correction by a more practiced hand.
> When you finish your masters¹ degree, perhaps you should hone your abilities
> by taking Sermo Combined. By now you must have learnt the declensions and
> conjugations and installed the principal parts of the most common Latin verbs
> into your head, so you would be ahead of the game. Let¹s see how well you do.
> You did make some mistakes on such matters in the past.
>
> Vale.
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com> ,
> "rory12001" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>> >
>> > Maior Scholasticae Liviaeque spd;
>> > my gratitude to you both. I've studied French, Italian, Russian and
>> German in high school and university and always had my mistakes corrected.
>> It's the only way to learn. I appreciate the help and support.
>> > If only the rest of this list were like you two!
>> > optime vale
>> > Maior
>> >
>> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com> ,
>> "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@> wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > C. Petronius L. Liviae s.p.d.,
>>> > >
>>>> > > > I have been a language teacher for 15 years, and I assure you that
>>>> the correct attitude is to provide corrections to mistakes. The habit of
>>>> letting students guess where their mistakes are drives them up the wall. (I
>>>> will let you look up the meaning of this expression, since this is the
>>>> method you are so fond of).
>>> > >
>>> > > I have not such experience, I never wanted to teach anything... but
>>> after 7 years of studying English language I was not able to follow a
>>> discussion. And that is the sort of all the French pupils studying
>>> English... so, I learnt Latin alone, with my own method, and now I write
>>> poetries and novels in latin, the last "de Saturnalibus cruentis" will be
>>> available on the Circulus website on the beginning of september...
>>> > >
>>>> > > > I never withdrew my statement. I firmly believe that it's not my
>>>> place to decide whether a senate session was legal or not.
>>> > >
>>> > > It is not the point... you witness an act which did not happened.
>>> > >
>>>> > > > I did correct "Magisterum" with "Magistrum" before posting, though.
>>> > >
>>> > > I have to register you in the first Latinitatis decuria.
>>> > >
>>> > > Optime vale.
>>> > >
>>> > > C. Petronius Dexter
>>> > > Arcoiali scribebat
>>> > > Nonis Sextilibus P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
>>> > >
>> >
>
>
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79156 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2010-08-05
Subject: Re: Witnessing appointment
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica C. Petronio Dextro quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque
> bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
>
>
>
> C. Petronius L. Liviae s.p.d.,
>
>> > I have been a language teacher for 15 years, and I assure you that the
>> correct attitude is to provide corrections to mistakes. The habit of letting
>> students guess where their mistakes are drives them up the wall. (I will let
>> you look up the meaning of this expression, since this is the method you are
>> so fond of).
>
> I have not such experience, I never wanted to teach anything... but after 7
> years of studying English language I was not able to follow a discussion.
>
>
> ATS: They must have been using one of these dumbed-down FL methods such
> as have been inflicted on our students for these many years: tourist phrases
> and such, useful up to a point, but never suitable to produce fluency in
> reading or writing, to say nothing of speaking.
>
>
> And that is the sort of all the French pupils studying English... so, I learnt
> Latin alone, with my own method, and now I write poetries and novels in latin,
> the last "de Saturnalibus cruentis" will be available on the Circulus website
> on the beginning of september...
>
> ATS: Evidently your own method is far superior to that employed in the
> schools. Of course, you have the Assimil text, too, if memory serves, and
> that is the same one we use...but with errors corrected by Avitus. You, too,
> might like to solidify your knowledge of modern Latin by joining us in Sermo.
>
>> > I never withdrew my statement. I firmly believe that it's not my place to
>> decide whether a senate session was legal or not.
>
> It is not the point... you witness an act which did not happened.
>
> ATS: On this you have a point, one with which Marinus appears to agree.
> He cannot be appointed to any magistracy until he takes the oath, let alone be
> invested with imperium. Unfortunately, the same is true of other magistrates,
> and a similar situation prevails with regard to other issues of importance to
> the Res Publica...but as long as we have a government more dysfunctional than
> that of NYS, one which will not allow a proper Senate session even on a
> subject utterly lacking in controversy, we will continue to look ridiculous in
> the eyes of the observers and be unable to conduct government business.
>
>> > I did correct "Magisterum" with "Magistrum" before posting, though.
>
> I have to register you in the first Latinitatis decuria.
>
> ATS: Indeed you do, and a couple of the Sermo I graduates in the second
> decuria, since there is no second decurio. Plauta had to write a 300 word
> essay in Latin for her examination, and is fully qualified for the first
> decuria, more so than some who are there, and some who have been there in the
> past.
>
>
> Optime vale.
>
> C. Petronius Dexter
> Arcoiali scribebat
> Nonis Sextilibus P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
>
> Optime vale(te).
>
>
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79157 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-08-05
Subject: NONAE SEXTILIAE: Temple of Salus; Second Battle of Nola
M. Moravius Piscinus Pontifex Maximus Quiritibus cultoribus Deorum et omnibus salutem plurimam dicit: Dea Salus salvere vos iubet.

Hodie est Nonae Sextialiae; haec dies fastus est: Natalis Salutis in Quirino.

"Flee the fifth: for then sprang Orcus and the Eumenides!" ~ P. Vergilius Maro, Georgic 1.276-78

Originally Orcus was a minor Italic god of the Underworld. In paintings of southern Italy Orcus was depicted as being red, with a pointed black beard, and he carried a large mallet by which he would stun the dead before carrying them off to the Underworld. His name became synonymous with the Underworld. Later, as Dis Pater became identified with Hades, and as the Underworld was known by His name among the Greeks, Orcus became another name for Dis Pater among Roman poets.

The Eumenides were the avenging deities of the Underworld. They were identified with the Irae and with the Furies.


AUC 446 / 307 BCE: The Temple of Salus contracted

"In this year the censor C. Junius Bubulcus signed a contract for the building of the temple to Salus which he had vowed when engaged as consul in the Samnite War. He and his colleague, M. Valerius Maximus, also undertook the construction of roads through the country districts out of the public funds. The treaty with the Carthaginians was renewed for the third time this year and munificent presents were made to the plenipotentiaries who had come over for the purpose." ~ Titus Livius 9.43.25

AUC 451 / 302: Dedication of the Temple of Salus on the Quirinal Hill

"In their weakened condition it seemed almost incredible that the Aequi could have begun war, relying solely upon themselves, and the fear of an indefinitely extended war necessitated the appointment of a Dictator. C. Junius Bubulcus was nominated, and he took the field, with M. Titinius as Master of the Horse. In the very first battle he crushed the Aequi, and a week later he returned in triumph to the City. Whilst Dictator he dedicated the temple of Salus which he had vowed as consul and the construction of which he had contracted for when censor." ~ Titus Livius 10.1.9


AUC 538 / 215 BCE: The Second Battle of Nola: Marcellus again defeats Hannibal

"Hannibal sent part of his force on a plundering expedition in the Nolan territory. No sooner was Marcellus aware of it than he formed his line of battle, nor did Hannibal decline the challenge. There was about a mile between his camp and the city, and within that space-it is all level ground round Nola-the armies met. The battle shout raised on both sides brought back the nearest amongst the cohorts who had been sent off to plunder; the Nolans, too, on the other side, took their place in the Roman line. Marcellus addressed a few words of encouragement and thanks to them, and told them to take their station amongst the reserve and help to carry the wounded from the field, they were to keep out of the fighting unless they received the signal from him.

"The battle was obstinately contested; the generals encouraged the men, and the men fought to the utmost of their strength. Marcellus urged his men to press vigorously on those whom they had vanquished only three days ago, who had been driven in flight from Cumae, and whom he had himself, with another army, defeated the year before. . . By showing his contempt for the enemy, Marcellus raised the spirits of his men. Hannibal, on the other hand, reproached his own men in much more severe terms. . . Neither his censures nor his promises had any effect in strengthening the morale of his men. When they began to fall back in all directions the spirits of the Romans rose, not only because of their general's cheering words, but also because the Nolans raised encouraging shouts and fired them with the glow of battle, until the Carthaginians fairly turned to flee and were driven to their camp. The Romans were anxious to storm the camp, but Marcellus marched them back to Nola amid the joyous congratulations even of the populace who had before been more inclined to the Carthaginians. More than 5000 of the enemy were killed that day and 600 made prisoners, 18 military standards were taken and two elephants; four had been killed in the battle. The Romans had less than a thousand killed. The next day was spent by both sides in burying those killed in battle, under an informal truce. Marcellus burnt the spoils taken from the enemy in fulfillment of a vow to Vulcan." ~ Titus Livius 23.43-45


AUC 696 / 57 BCE: Cicero arrives at Brundisium after sixteen months in exile.


Our thought for today is Marcus Aurelius, Meditations 5.8.4:

"As a matter of course many of the prescriptions of Asclepius are disagreeable, but we accept them in the hope of health. Let the perfecting and accomplishment of the things, which the common nature judges to be good, be judged by thee to be of the same kind as thy health. And so accept everything which happens, even if it seem disagreeable, because it leads to this, to the health of the universe and to the prosperity and felicity of Zeus. For He would not have brought on any man what He has brought, if it were not useful for the whole."


Visit Religio_Romana_Cultorum_Deorum-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79158 From: Stefn Ullarsson Piparskeggr Date: 2010-08-05
Subject: Re: New Site Design
Salve Barbatus;

Here's one I set up (at a freeserve) in less than an hour.

http://tavernaromana.netboards.org/index.php?sid=d26b6626878077031dc6dd8a9067e1c2

...and a blog I set up before my dad got ill and I lost the energy to
work on it...

http://confoederatio-romana.webs.com/

The tools are out there to come up with a site (or interlinked sites),
which will work with a group our size.

=====================================
In amicitia et fide
Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator
Civis circa Quintilis MMDCCLI a.u.c.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79159 From: Cato Date: 2010-08-05
Subject: Re: Witnessing appointment
Cato Tulliae Scholasticae sal.

I must disagree heartily on one point: I don't think a more dysfunctional government than NYS's is possible. I often find myself read The Post (a guilty pleasure) and thinking, "Even Nova Roma isn't this bad."

:)

Vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Tullia Scholastica" <fororom@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > A. Tullia Scholastica C. Petronio Dextro quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque
> > bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
> >
> >
> >
> > C. Petronius L. Liviae s.p.d.,
> >
> >> > I have been a language teacher for 15 years, and I assure you that the
> >> correct attitude is to provide corrections to mistakes. The habit of letting
> >> students guess where their mistakes are drives them up the wall. (I will let
> >> you look up the meaning of this expression, since this is the method you are
> >> so fond of).
> >
> > I have not such experience, I never wanted to teach anything... but after 7
> > years of studying English language I was not able to follow a discussion.
> >
> >
> > ATS: They must have been using one of these dumbed-down FL methods such
> > as have been inflicted on our students for these many years: tourist phrases
> > and such, useful up to a point, but never suitable to produce fluency in
> > reading or writing, to say nothing of speaking.
> >
> >
> > And that is the sort of all the French pupils studying English... so, I learnt
> > Latin alone, with my own method, and now I write poetries and novels in latin,
> > the last "de Saturnalibus cruentis" will be available on the Circulus website
> > on the beginning of september...
> >
> > ATS: Evidently your own method is far superior to that employed in the
> > schools. Of course, you have the Assimil text, too, if memory serves, and
> > that is the same one we use...but with errors corrected by Avitus. You, too,
> > might like to solidify your knowledge of modern Latin by joining us in Sermo.
> >
> >> > I never withdrew my statement. I firmly believe that it's not my place to
> >> decide whether a senate session was legal or not.
> >
> > It is not the point... you witness an act which did not happened.
> >
> > ATS: On this you have a point, one with which Marinus appears to agree.
> > He cannot be appointed to any magistracy until he takes the oath, let alone be
> > invested with imperium. Unfortunately, the same is true of other magistrates,
> > and a similar situation prevails with regard to other issues of importance to
> > the Res Publica...but as long as we have a government more dysfunctional than
> > that of NYS, one which will not allow a proper Senate session even on a
> > subject utterly lacking in controversy, we will continue to look ridiculous in
> > the eyes of the observers and be unable to conduct government business.
> >
> >> > I did correct "Magisterum" with "Magistrum" before posting, though.
> >
> > I have to register you in the first Latinitatis decuria.
> >
> > ATS: Indeed you do, and a couple of the Sermo I graduates in the second
> > decuria, since there is no second decurio. Plauta had to write a 300 word
> > essay in Latin for her examination, and is fully qualified for the first
> > decuria, more so than some who are there, and some who have been there in the
> > past.
> >
> >
> > Optime vale.
> >
> > C. Petronius Dexter
> > Arcoiali scribebat
> > Nonis Sextilibus P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.
> >
> > Optime vale(te).
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79160 From: eagled2 Date: 2010-08-05
Subject: Re: New Site Design
I can and am willing to setup a forum and customize it for our group, but the problem is getting people to use it. From what i've heard many people have tried to start one up and it has never went anywhere. Unless you can get citizens to start using it I was looking for one built or at least officially recognized by the government of nova roma. I believe that's the only way to get people to trust it enough to actually use it. Like I said before someone had told me that they were in the process of re-designing the entire nova roma website and I haven't seen any evidence or updates of that in the years since I was told that.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stefn Ullarsson Piparskeggr" <famila.ulleria.venii@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Barbatus;
>
> Here's one I set up (at a freeserve) in less than an hour.
>
> http://tavernaromana.netboards.org/index.php?sid=d26b6626878077031dc6dd8a9067e1c2
>
> ...and a blog I set up before my dad got ill and I lost the energy to
> work on it...
>
> http://confoederatio-romana.webs.com/
>
> The tools are out there to come up with a site (or interlinked sites),
> which will work with a group our size.
>
> =====================================
> In amicitia et fide
> Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator
> Civis circa Quintilis MMDCCLI a.u.c.
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79161 From: marcushoratius Date: 2010-08-05
Subject: Re: Senate Rules and State law on quorums
Catone

The law of Maine states that objects have to be made promptly. A week into the session, after participating in it and even voted, is not a prompt objection. Therefore no legal objections were made. As to objecting to what Albucius tried to do, with no auspices and no quorum, it was not a legal session, nor even an informal session under the law, because he cannot demonstrate that a sufficient number of senators were present.

Piscinus


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> Cato Piscino sal.
>
> Piscinus, a legal objection (in writing to the co-secretary of the corporation) stands to act as a denial of quorum. The Senate was told specifically and in writing, that the objector had withdrawn from the actions of that so-called meeting and objected to them on the basis of their illegality.
>
> *All of which, of course, is academic, as the call itself was vetoed and so no action can be understood to have had any legal foundation or result.*
>
>
> On the other hand, not a single written objection to the Senate session called by consul Albucius was recorded by the secretary of the corporation, nor did any written notice arrive on the Senate floor excusing any member from attendance. Therefore, every senator on the List - aside from Audens and Aurelianus - voting or not, can be considered to have been present.
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79162 From: David Kling Date: 2010-08-05
Subject: Witnessing of Imperium - Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus S.P.D.

I, Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus, as a Lictor of Nova Roma, hereby witness the
appointment of Gnaeus Equitius Marinus as Magister Populi et Dictator of
Nova Roma. As a member of the Comitia Curiata I wish him good fortune in his
office and in his work on behalf of the Religio Romana.

Ego, Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus, lictor curiata Novae Romae testificor Cn.
Equitium Marinum Magistrum Populi et Dictatorem Novae Romae creari. Lictor
Comitiorum Curiatorum ei opto ut pro religione Romana felicissime officio
munereque suo fungatur.

---

Valete;

Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79163 From: David Kling Date: 2010-08-05
Subject: Re: Witnessing of Imperium - Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
Salvete;

Ego, Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus, lictor curiatus Novae Romae testificor Cn.
Equitium Marinum Magistrum Populi et Dictatorem Novae Romae creari. Lictor
Comitiorum Curiatorum ei opto ut pro religione Romana felicissime officio
munereque suo fungatur.

--

Corrected Latin.

Valete;

Modianus

2010/8/5 David Kling <tau.athanasios@...>

> Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus S.P.D.
>
> I, Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus, as a Lictor of Nova Roma, hereby witness
> the appointment of Gnaeus Equitius Marinus as Magister Populi et Dictator of
> Nova Roma. As a member of the Comitia Curiata I wish him good fortune in his
> office and in his work on behalf of the Religio Romana.
>
> Ego, Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus, lictor curiata Novae Romae testificor Cn.
> Equitium Marinum Magistrum Populi et Dictatorem Novae Romae creari. Lictor
> Comitiorum Curiatorum ei opto ut pro religione Romana felicissime officio
> munereque suo fungatur.
>
> ---
>
> Valete;
>
> Caeso Fabius Buteo Modianus
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79164 From: Cato Date: 2010-08-05
Subject: Re: Senate Rules and State law on quorums
Cato Piscino sal.

The objections were made as soon as it was brought to our attention that the consular veto had never been challenged by any authority with the power to do so; this would be - if the thing came to a court - the kind of thing a judge would decide.

Again, it is all sort of academic since the call was, in fact, vetoed.

Vale,

Cato



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "marcushoratius" <MHoratius@...> wrote:
>
> Catone
>
> The law of Maine states that objects have to be made promptly. A week into the session, after participating in it and even voted, is not a prompt objection. Therefore no legal objections were made. As to objecting to what Albucius tried to do, with no auspices and no quorum, it was not a legal session, nor even an informal session under the law, because he cannot demonstrate that a sufficient number of senators were present.
>
> Piscinus
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> >
> > Cato Piscino sal.
> >
> > Piscinus, a legal objection (in writing to the co-secretary of the corporation) stands to act as a denial of quorum. The Senate was told specifically and in writing, that the objector had withdrawn from the actions of that so-called meeting and objected to them on the basis of their illegality.
> >
> > *All of which, of course, is academic, as the call itself was vetoed and so no action can be understood to have had any legal foundation or result.*
> >
> >
> > On the other hand, not a single written objection to the Senate session called by consul Albucius was recorded by the secretary of the corporation, nor did any written notice arrive on the Senate floor excusing any member from attendance. Therefore, every senator on the List - aside from Audens and Aurelianus - voting or not, can be considered to have been present.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Cato
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79165 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2010-08-05
Subject: Re: Senate Rules and State law on quorums
If Piscinus feels THAT strongly, then he should petition Maine Court for
injuctive relief. Since he has gone to the authorities before, this would
be just as valid, if he feels that he is on absolute firm ground.

Vale,

Sulla

On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 7:33 AM, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:

>
>
> Cato Piscino sal.
>
> The objections were made as soon as it was brought to our attention that
> the consular veto had never been challenged by any authority with the power
> to do so; this would be - if the thing came to a court - the kind of thing a
> judge would decide.
>
> Again, it is all sort of academic since the call was, in fact, vetoed.
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "marcushoratius" <MHoratius@...> wrote:
> >
> > Catone
> >
> > The law of Maine states that objects have to be made promptly. A week
> into the session, after participating in it and even voted, is not a prompt
> objection. Therefore no legal objections were made. As to objecting to what
> Albucius tried to do, with no auspices and no quorum, it was not a legal
> session, nor even an informal session under the law, because he cannot
> demonstrate that a sufficient number of senators were present.
> >
> > Piscinus
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>, "Cato"
> <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Cato Piscino sal.
> > >
> > > Piscinus, a legal objection (in writing to the co-secretary of the
> corporation) stands to act as a denial of quorum. The Senate was told
> specifically and in writing, that the objector had withdrawn from the
> actions of that so-called meeting and objected to them on the basis of their
> illegality.
> > >
> > > *All of which, of course, is academic, as the call itself was vetoed
> and so no action can be understood to have had any legal foundation or
> result.*
> > >
> > >
> > > On the other hand, not a single written objection to the Senate session
> called by consul Albucius was recorded by the secretary of the corporation,
> nor did any written notice arrive on the Senate floor excusing any member
> from attendance. Therefore, every senator on the List - aside from Audens
> and Aurelianus - voting or not, can be considered to have been present.
> > >
> > > Vale,
> > >
> > > Cato
> > >
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79166 From: iulius sabinus Date: 2010-08-05
Subject: Re: Tribunician report for July session of the Senate.
SALVETE!
 
That is correct, Petroni Dexter.
 
I withdraw my participation and votes but the votes are counted as abstineo. Abstineo means participation. As time I withdraw saying very clear that I will not take part in that illegal meeting, there is no participation. Nobody can interpret that in the way which bring advantage to those who wants to be in advantage.
 
VALETE,
Sabinus

"Every individual is the architect of his own fortune" - Appius Claudius

--- On Tue, 8/3/10, Gaius Petronius Dexter <jfarnoud94@...> wrote:


From: Gaius Petronius Dexter <jfarnoud94@...>
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Tribunician report for July session of the Senate.
To: "Nova Roma" <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, August 3, 2010, 7:07 PM


 



C. Petronius Dexter tribunus Plebis quiritibus omnibus s.p.d.,

Once again it seems that the situation needs a tribune of the Plebs who at least reads the laws, even written in English [private joke], and knows the mathematics.

To count widhdrawn votes into votes "Abstineo" is a gross error. "Abstineo" is one of the three possible votes:
1- uti rogas (Yes)
2- abstineo (Abstain)
3- antiquo. (No)

A withdrawn vote means the voter did not want to be a part of an illegal Senate session, because the session was vetoed by the other consul. He wants his vote not counted as said by himself.

Co-convening the senate with 4 tribunes did not empeach that this session is vetoed by the consul and, therefore, illegal. Calling the senate to order, even by 4 tribunes, is not a tribunian veto nor an intercessio, it is only a calling to convene the Senate to order. Moreover, the tribunes have the right to convene the Senate but on an agenda which concerns Plebeians affairs no to make a dictator, with an Item that they did not write and suddenly coming up from the toga of the consul Q. Fabius.

The first and main error in this tendancious report is that no word is said about the consul P. Memmius veto.
Some write history from their windows or screens. A second error is on the Quorum, with a funny remarks from parliamentary rules, while Nova Roma has his proper rules about the Senate Quorum.
Apparently these individuals did not know the NR Laws and Rules...

Citizens, see more here:
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Rules_on_defining_a_Senate_Quorum_%28Nova_Roma%29

Optime valete.

C. Petronius Dexter
Tribunus Plebis Arcoiali scribebat
a. d. III Nonas Sextiles P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Michael K" <mjk@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete omnes,
>
> Ditto to C.Popillus Laenas form my situation as well. I too withdrew my votes for the same reason.
>
> Valete bene,
>
> QSP
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius" <gaiuspopillius@> wrote:
> >
> > Salvete Omnes,
> >
> > This report is in error. I withdrew my votes on all three items because of the uncertainty of the legality of the session.
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > C. Popillius Laenas
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "mcorvvs" <mcorvvs@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Tribunus Plebis Marcus Octavius Corvus Quiritibus S.P.D.
> > >
> > > Citizens of Nova Roma,
> > >
> > > Here is the Tribunician report of the Senate session of July 19 - July 25,
> > > 2763
> > >
> > > The votes have been tallied and the results are as follows:
> > >
> > > Formal debate ended at Friday 00.01 hrs CET Roma, 23 July 2010 2763.
> > > Voting began at Friday 23 July 2010 at 00.02 hrs CET Roma 2763
> > > and was concluded at Sunday 25 July 2010 at 00.02 CET Roma 2763.
> > >
> > > The following XX Senators cast their votes on time. They are referred to by
> > > their initials which are listed in alphabetical order (with the exception of the
> > > presiding magistrate who will be listed first):
> > >
> > > *KFBQ: K. Fabius Buteo Quintilianus, Presiding Magistrate
> > > C0-presiding magistrates:
> > > Max. Valeria Messallina, Tribuna Plebis
> > > C. Curius Saturninus, Tribunus Plebis
> > > C. Aquillius Rota, Tribunus Plebis
> > > M. Octavius Corvus, Tribunus Plebis
> > >
> > >
> > > *ATS: A. Tullia Scholastica
> > > *CCS: C. Curius Saturninus
> > > *CEC: C. Equitius Cato
> > > *CnEM: Cn. Equitius Marinus
> > > *CPL: C. Popillius Laenas
> > > *EmCF: Em. Curia Finnica
> > > *FrAC: Fr. Apulus Caesar
> > > *KFBM: K. Fabius Buteo Modianus
> > > *MAM: M. Arminius Maior
> > > *MCC: M. Curiatius Complutensis
> > > *MHM: M. Hortensia Maior
> > > *MIP: M. Iulius Perusianus
> > > *MIS: M. Iulius Severus
> > > *MLA: M. Lucretius Agricola
> > > *MMPH: M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus
> > > *QSP: Q. Suetonius Paulinus
> > > *TiGP.: Ti. Galerius Paulinus
> > > *TIS: T. Iulius Sabinus
> > >
> > > The following Senator (I) voted by proxy:
> > > *ArnMA: Arn. Moravia Aurelia (Proxy vote delivered by K. Fabius Buteo
> > > Quintilianus)
> > >
> > >
> > > The following Senatores (X) did not vote:
> > >
> > > *CFD: C. Flavius Diocletianus
> > > *CMM: C. Marius Merullus
> > > *CnIC: Cn. Iulius Caesar
> > > *CVP: C. Vipsanius Agrippa
> > > *DIPI: Dec. Iunius Palladius Invictus
> > > *FlGA: Fl. Galerius Aurelianus
> > > *LCSF: L. Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > > *MMA M. Minucius Audens
> > > *PMA: P. Memmius Albucius
> > > *QFM: Q. Fabius Maximus
> > >
> > >
> > > _________________________________________
> > >
> > > "VTI ROGAS" indicates a vote in favor of an item,
> > > "ANTIQVO" is a vote against,
> > > "ABSTINEO" is an open abstention.
> > > __________________________________________
> > >
> > > All decisions were made with a majority of Uti Rogas votes.
> > >
> > > Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis.
> > >
> > > Correction of the Constitution IV, a:
> > > "Elections of the ordinarii shall take place no later than December
> > > 15th, and newly-elected officials shall assume their offices on
> > > January 1st."
> > >
> > > Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis.
> > >
> > > "Elections of the ordinarii shall take place no later than December
> > > 1st, and newly-elected officials shall assume their offices on January
> > > 1st, except Plebeian Aediles and Tribunes of the Plebs who shall assume
> > > their offices on December 10th."
> > >
> > > UTI ROGAS: 17
> > > ANTIQUO: 0
> > > ABSTINEO: 3
> > >
> > > The result of the voting is Item I PASSED
> > >
> > > KFBM: On both items I vote UTI ROGAS.
> > >
> > > KFBQ: Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. UTI
> > > ROGAS
> > >
> > > MHM: Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. UTI
> > > ROGAS
> > > CnEM: I Uti Rogas
> > > MLA: Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. UTI
> > > ROGAS. Although I am a patrician myself I am happy to lend my vote to this fine
> > > lex which moves us closer to historical practice and I think may provide a help
> > > in smoothing our annual transition of magistrates.
> > > MMPH: Item I. For the proposed Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis.
> > > ADSENTIOR UTI ROGAS
> > > CPL: I Uti Rogas
> > > TiGP: Uti Rogas on all three agenda items.
> > > *Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
> > > ATS: Item I: Uti rogas. This is long overdue, and should bring us closer to
> > > ancient Roman practice.
> > > MIS: Item I. For the proposed Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis.
> > > ADSENTIOR VTI ROGAS
> > > CCS: Item I: Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis Uti
> > > rogas.
> > >
> > > TIS: Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. Uti
> > > rogas.
> > >
> > > *Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
> > > ArnMA: Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. UTI
> > > ROGAS
> > >
> > > MCC: Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. UTI
> > > ROGAS
> > >
> > > QSP: > I Uti Rogas>
> > >
> > > MIP: Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. VTI
> > > ROGAS
> > >
> > > EmCF: Item I: Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis Uti
> > > rogas.
> > >
> > > FrAC: Item I1. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. VTI
> > > ROGAS
> > >
> > > CEC: Item I - VTI ROGAS
> > >
> > > *Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
> > > MAM: Item I. Proposal for Lex Fabia de magistratibus ordinariis ineundis. Uti
> > > Rogas.
> > >
> > > _________________________________________
> > >
> > >
> > > Item II. The IT-project
> > >
> > > The Senate appoints Kristoffer From (formerly known within Nova Roma
> > > as Senator Titus Octavius Pius Ahenobarbus) as the programmer who will
> > > develop and set up a new IT-system, consisting of an automated
> > > election-system and a new citizen database with tools for our
> > > magistrates and citizens.
> > >
> > > The Senate affirms that the cost for the IT-project executed by
> > > KristofferFrom will be paid for with 10 000 USD.
> > >
> > > The Senate requests the project to be completed in time for the fall
> > > elections in November 2010, but understands that if the new system is
> > > not ready in time, Kristoffer From will arrange the elections and run-
> > > off elections in the current system. Kristoffer From will, in addition
> > > to the fall elections and run-off elections, set up no more than one
> > > session in each Comitia each month during his work on the project.
> > >
> > > The Senate orders the CIO to choose the most advantageous pay model
> > > for Nova Roma, either the mentioned Swedish NPO or another solution.
> > > Guarantees by the CIO will be given to assure that any chosen solution
> > > is irreproachable. A registered accountant who will check on the
> > > correctness may need separate pay though.
> > >
> > > Kristoffer From will leave reports on the progress of the project to
> > > the CIO who will share these reports with the Senate. There will be
> > > five such short reports, these reports will be sent to the CIO at the
> > > following occasions and when the following milestones are completed
> > > (but probably not working together yet):
> > >
> > > 1. Database (the backbone of the new site)
> > > 2. Access control (a basic website with an authentication method)
> > > 3. Server-side daemon (to enable automation of time-sensitive tasks)
> > > 4. Election system (automated running of elections)
> > > 5. Administrative tools (so magistrates can access the system)
> > > 6. Documentation (so Kristoffer is not the only one who knows how it
> > > works)
> > >
> > > These milestones may be reported in any order and they only have a
> > > partial connection to the payment of Kristoffer From. The reports will
> > > serve the purpose of keeping the Senate informed of progress of the
> > > IT-project. Still, the work is too complicated to connect the
> > > milestones too strictly to payments.
> > >
> > > Kristoffer From may report on the milestones in any order, as they are
> > > reached. The last payment will however not be made until the CIO has
> > > stated that the work is finished.
> > >
> > > The Senate orders the CFO or someone appointed/approved by the Senate
> > > instead of a CFO to immediately set aside the full 10 000 USD and upon
> > > the start of the project pay 2 500 USD for salary, social costs and
> > > taxes for Kristoffer From. The next payment of 2500 will be paid as
> > > soon as Kristoffer From reports on one milestone and a third payment
> > > of 2 500 USD will be paid as soon as Kristoffer From reports on a
> > > second milestone. When the project is completed to the satisfaction of
> > > the CIO, the remaining 2 500 USD will be paid according to the chosen
> > > pay-model.
> > >
> > > Kristoffer From will do after-work checks and surveillance checks for
> > > at least three months to see to it that the new IT-system really
> > > works in actual use. Nova Roma may also be asked to assist in
> > > performing tests of the system during this period.
> > >
> > >
> > > Uti rogas: 16
> > > Antiquo: 0
> > > Abstineo: 4
> > > The result of the voting is Item II PASSED
> > >
> > >
> > > KFBM: On both items I vote UTI ROGAS.
> > >
> > > KFBQ: Item II. The IT-project UTI ROGAS
> > >
> > > MHM: Item II. The IT-project UTI ROGAS
> > > CnEM: I Uti Rogas
> > > MLA: Item II. The IT-project UTI ROGAS. I have had a closer view than most as
> > > this project has gone ahead. Saturninus has done a top-rate job and I am happy
> > > to lend my vote in support of this long-overdue measure.
> > >
> > > MMPH: Item II. For the IT-project ADSENTIOR UTI ROGAS CPL: I Uti Rogas
> > > CPL: I Uti Rogas
> > > TiGP: Uti Rogas on all three agenda items.
> > > *Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
> > > ATS: Item II: Uti rogas. It seems that we have reached the point where it is
> > > better to start anew than attempt to repair the existing programs or whatever
> > > despite the expense. Appliances and automobiles have similar problems; we
> > > should not expect our IT infrastructure to last forever, no matter how well
> > > maintained.
> > > MIS: Item II. For the IT-project MIS: ADSENTIOR VTI ROGAS
> > > CCS: Item II: The IT-project Uti rogas. This is the most important improvement
> > > into our infrastructure ever since first Album Civium and Cista.
> > >
> > > TIS: Item II. The IT-project TIS: Uti rogas.
> > >
> > > *Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
> > > ArnMA: Item II. The IT-project UTI ROGAS
> > >
> > > MCC: Item II. IT-project UTI ROGAS
> > >
> > > QSP: > I Uti Rogas>
> > >
> > > MIP: Item Item II. The IT-project VTI ROGAS
> > >
> > > EmCF: Item II: The IT-project Uti rogas. This is an very drastic improvement
> > > that can be no longer delayed. The existing system is completely out of date,
> > > poorly documented and there is only one individual who is actually able to use
> > > it somehow. Wihout a new IT-system there will be no further elections.
> > >
> > > FrAC: Item Item II. The IT-project ABSTINEO As professionist of this commercial
> > > area, I would like to read the concrete project before to give my approval. The
> > > budget in fact is very high and it would be analyzed by a pool of experts.
> > >
> > > CEC: Item I - VTI ROGAS
> > >
> > > *Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
> > > MAM: Item II. The IT-project Uti Rogas.
> > >
> > > _____________________________________________
> > >
> > > Item III. Dictatorship
> > >
> > > The Senate of Nova Roma, having convened in an emergency session,
> > > considers that:
> > >
> > > Whereas the current situation in Nova Roma threatens the very
> > > existence of Nova Roma both as a nation and as a membership
> > > organization, and,
> > >
> > > Whereas these crises in our organization and corporation, our
> > > finances, and our technical problems result from many causes that must
> > > be addressed so as to avoid Nova Roma from harm, as well as to ensure
> > > the orderly and enjoyable continuation of Nova Roma, and,
> > >
> > > Whereas any solutions to these present crises should and must be done
> > > in accordance with the governing bodies of law,
> > >
> > > Do we, the Senate of Nova Roma, by the vote of a majority, hereby
> > > appoint Gnaeus Equitius Marinus to the office of Dictator, and invest
> > > in him complete auctoritas and imperium for a period of no more than
> > > six months, trusting in him to resolve the present crises and take
> > > whatever steps he deems necessary to prevent future harm to the Res
> > > Publica Populi Novae Romae.
> > >
> > > The Senate conveys resolution of the following tasks, although not
> > > limited to these alone, to Cn. Equitius Marinus:
> > >
> > > To oversee the rewriting of corporate bylaws for Nova Roma, Inc
> > >
> > > To have the Constitution and subordinate laws reviewed for the purpose
> > > of amending or replacing them as are necessary to protect the
> > > respublica from harm
> > >
> > > To resolve the IT issues that threaten our website and on which the
> > > functions of the respublica rely
> > >
> > > To restructure voting procedures to make them robust against loss of
> > > technical programs or equipment.
> > >
> > > To simplify the magisterial structure to provide fewer magistrates
> > > with better defined roles.
> > >
> > >
> > > In the name of the Senate and the People of the Nova Roma, and in the
> > > sight of the Gods and Goddesses of the People of Nova Roma, under the
> > > provision of the Constitution IV.B.1, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus,
> > > Censorius is hereby appointed Dictator and Magister Populi of Nova Roma.
> > >
> > > Uti rogas: 16
> > > Antiquo: 1
> > > Abstineo: 3
> > > The result of the voting is Item III PASSED
> > >
> > >
> > > KFBM: Rather, on all three items I vote UTI ROGAS.
> > >
> > > KFBQ: Item III. Dictatorship UTI ROGAS
> > >
> > > MHM: Item Item III. Dictatorship UTI ROGAS
> > > CnEM: III Uti Rogas, and may the Dii Immortales help me
> > > MLA: Item III. Dictatorship UTI ROGAS. Senator and Censorius Marinus is one of
> > > the very few whom I could support in this position. In deciding my vote I also
> > > consider the manifest desire of the people to put ourselves back on the right
> > > track.
> > > MMPH: Item III. ADSENTIOR UTI ROGAS
> > > CPL: I Uti Rogas
> > > TiGP: Now as to the proposed dictatorship. When the Roman appointed a dictator
> > > armies were at their gates.
> > > When the Romans appointed their first dictator there was an effort under way to
> > > return the kings to power.
> > > A week or so ago I stated on one of the lists that I would not support the
> > > appointment of a dictator even if I was proposed as the dictator. My opposition
> > > to a dictator has NOTHING to do with Senator Marinus or any other person who
> > > might have been nominated. It is based on my belief that while we have problems
> > > we do not have a crisis.
> > > I do not see anything that has changed and I vote NO on the proposed
> > > appointment of a dictator.
> > > *Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
> > > ATS: Item III. Ut pollicita sum, tertia discessio sequitur. Iterum meá
> > > quidem sententiá, interdum aliqua facienda, etsi injucunda. Malim Novam
> > > Romam rixis omnino carere; malim omnia sine pervicaciis et obicibus esse si quid
> > > alicui displiceat. Infelicissimé, haec ita non sunt, et mutanda.
> > > Dictaturae mihi displicent, sed ut videtur, nunc uná nobis opus est.
> > > Dolendum'st; sed quae cum ita sint, optio alia abest. Vir quem proposuisti
> > > bonus est, et eum honestum arbitror. Assentior, etsi animo sollicito nec
> > > laetitiam capiens, ut rogas.
> > > MIS: Item III. Dictatorship MIS: ADSENTIOR VTI ROGAS
> > > CCS: Item III: Dictatorship Uti rogas. It is time to save the republic. It is
> > > time to put politics aside and do real things. If accomplishing it means to vote
> > > for dictatorship, I'll do it. As a Roman citizen, magistrate and senator,
> > > Marinus has my support.
> > >
> > > TIS: Item III. Uti rogas.
> > >
> > > *Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
> > > ArnMA: Item III.Dictatorship. UTI ROGAS
> > >
> > > MCC: Item III. Dictatorship. UTI ROGAS
> > >
> > > QSP: > III Antiquo
> > >
> > > MIP: Item III. Dictatorship VTI ROGAS
> > >
> > > EmCF: Item III: Dictatorship Uti rogas.
> > >
> > > FrAC: Item III. Dictatorship VTI ROGAS I don't like the dictatorship, my own
> > > personal political opinion would drive me to more democratical and popular kinds
> > > of governments. But the situation of NR is bad, I'm looking the organization
> > > from a more far point of view and I find again a disorganized group divided by
> > > superficial discussions and political games. I hope the good Marinus would
> > > concentrate his efforts to find a new identity to NR, a real mission in a real
> > > world for the members, concrete and "unvirtual" opportunities and projects. The
> > > way taken by NR during the last year is the worst road, we need a change of
> > > direction. Marinus, please, do it!
> > >
> > > CEC: ITEM III - Although I do not go to the extreme that Gn. Iulius Caesar does,
> > > I
> > > cannot help but agree that each "crisis" we are called upon to deal now with was
> > > brought up in one form or another and those who did so were mocked or ignored
> > > because of political convenience. I think this because I was, of course, one of
> > > them; exempli gratia, I have advocated for the by-laws change for *years* now,
> > > offering my proposals repeatedly and simply being ignored. Our compliance with
> > > Maine law was brought up repeatedly (again, by myself among others) - only to be
> > > scoffed at and ignored because those in power disliked the messengers rather
> > > than paying attention to the message. So my personal feelings urge me to refuse
> > > to allow those in power to stand back and make someone else responsible for
> > > cleaning up the messes they have made.
> > >
> > > Yet, the Romans themselves did not look with horror at the idea of a dictator,
> > > probably because they had no experience with our common modern understanding of
> > > dictatorial government, with Hitler, Stalin, Tito, Ceaucescu, Peron, Pol Pot,
> > > Castro, etc., standing in our collective modern consciousness as the epitome of
> > > governments marked by arbitrary cruelty and inhumanity. The Romans appointed
> > > dictators not only to carry out wars but often to simply get a particular job
> > > done: to fill vacancies in the Senate, to preside over public games, to create
> > > holidays...even just to drive a nail into the door of the temple of Iuppiter
> > > O.M. in times of plague. They did their job, and unless they were a Sulla or a
> > > Marius or a Caesar, when it was finished they simply stepped back down into
> > > regular public life.
> > >
> > > So while I do believe that this series of "crises" has been manufactured by
> > > willful ignorance or blatant disregard on the part of some of those who have
> > > held the reins of power over the past two years, I cannot justify standing in
> > > the way of what is apparently the only solution that will hopefully make - force
> > > - those who hold power to shut up and actually listen for a change. The end
> > > does *not* justify the means, but simple dislike for the means does not make
> > > them evil, nor does it justify accepting a crippling status quo, either.
> > >
> > > VTI ROGAS
> > >
> > > *Later withdrew his votes: ABSTINEO
> > > MAM: Item III. Dictatorship Uti Rogas.
> > >
> > > _____________________________________________
> > > The following senators announced their desire to withdraw their votes
> > > after voting:
> > >
> > > C. Equitius Cato
> > > Ti. Galerius Paulinus
> > > T. Iulius Sabinus
> > >
> > > Normal rules of Parliamentary Procedure do not allow for members of a
> > > voting quorum to withdraw once the quorum has been made. The legality
> > > of these withdrawls is in question.
> > >
> > >
> > > Tribuni:
> > >
> > > M. Octavius Corvus (reporting)
> > > Maxima Valeria Messallina
> > > C. Curius Saturnius
> > > C. Aquilius Rota
> > >
> > > I thank my colleague Maxima Valeria Messallina and Senator Marcus Lucretius
> > > Agricola for advise and help while preparing this, such a difficult report.
> > >
> > > Valete bene in pace Deorum,
> > >
> > > M. Octavius Corvus
> > > Tribunus Plebis
> > >
> >
>

--
C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
a.d. VIII Kal. Mart. P. Memmio K. Fabio II coss.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79167 From: Christer Edling Date: 2010-08-05
Subject: Witnessing Statement
Salvete Omnes!

I, Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus, as a Lictor of Nova Roma, hereby
witness the appointment of Gnaeus Equitius Marinus as Magister Populi
et Dictator of Nova Roma. As a member of the Comitia Curiata I wish
him good fortune in his office and in his work on behalf of the
Religio Romana.

Ego, Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus, lictor curiatus Novae Romae
testificor Cn. Equitium Marinum Magistrum Populi et Dictatorem Novae
Romae creari. Lictor Comitiorum Curiatorum ei opto ut pro religione
Romana felicissime officio munereque suo fungatur.

I wish Censorius Gnaeus Equitus Marinus the best of luck! It is time
Nova Roma starts fulfilling its true potential.

*****************
Vale

Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus

Consul Iterum
Princeps Senatus et Flamen Palatualis
Civis Romanus sum
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Main_Page
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
************************************************
Mons Palatinus, Clivus Victoriae
Palatine Hill, Incline of Victoriae
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79168 From: iulius sabinus Date: 2010-08-05
Subject: Re: Senate Rules and State law on quorums
SALVE CATO!
 
Correct. There are 12 objections recorded.
 
VALE,
Sabinus

"Every individual is the architect of his own fortune" - Appius Claudius

--- On Thu, 8/5/10, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:


From: Cato <catoinnyc@...>
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Senate Rules and State law on quorums
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, August 5, 2010, 5:33 PM


 



Cato Piscino sal.

The objections were made as soon as it was brought to our attention that the consular veto had never been challenged by any authority with the power to do so; this would be - if the thing came to a court - the kind of thing a judge would decide.

Again, it is all sort of academic since the call was, in fact, vetoed.

Vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "marcushoratius" <MHoratius@...> wrote:
>
> Catone
>
> The law of Maine states that objects have to be made promptly. A week into the session, after participating in it and even voted, is not a prompt objection. Therefore no legal objections were made. As to objecting to what Albucius tried to do, with no auspices and no quorum, it was not a legal session, nor even an informal session under the law, because he cannot demonstrate that a sufficient number of senators were present.
>
> Piscinus
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Cato" <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> >
> > Cato Piscino sal.
> >
> > Piscinus, a legal objection (in writing to the co-secretary of the corporation) stands to act as a denial of quorum. The Senate was told specifically and in writing, that the objector had withdrawn from the actions of that so-called meeting and objected to them on the basis of their illegality.
> >
> > *All of which, of course, is academic, as the call itself was vetoed and so no action can be understood to have had any legal foundation or result.*
> >
> >
> > On the other hand, not a single written objection to the Senate session called by consul Albucius was recorded by the secretary of the corporation, nor did any written notice arrive on the Senate floor excusing any member from attendance. Therefore, every senator on the List - aside from Audens and Aurelianus - voting or not, can be considered to have been present.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Cato
> >
>











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79169 From: Belle Morte Statia Date: 2010-08-05
Subject: Re: To our Sarmatians Cives, please ...
Sta. Cornelia Aeternia C. Mariae Caecae sal:

Word has reached me that Lentulus is doing okay, so no worries Caeca :-)


Vale,
Aeternia

On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 4:33 PM, C.Maria Caeca <c.mariacaeca@...>wrote:

>
>
> C. Maria Caeca omnibus in foro S. P. D.
>
> I do realize how busy you all are, but I would very much appreciate it if
> someone in the Ukraine would take just a minute and let us know that our
> Penonians got there with no problems?
>
> Gratias Tibi Ago,
>
> CMC (who hasn't read everything, so might have just embarrassed herself by
> being impatient.)
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 79170 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2010-08-05
Subject: Re: New Site Design
Well, I'm not sure if you've been following what's going on, but one of the
things the Senate is supposed to be dealing with is a plan for the website.
It might have been done by now had the plan not become mired in the
possibility of corruption where the $10,000 was concerned and the efforts of
an obstructionist clique to take over the government with a dictatorship.
Now that the attempted coup has been derailed and those behind it have lost
all credibility in the eyes of the people of Nova Roma, we must hope that
Consul Albucius and the Senate can get back to productive work soon.

As far as the forum idea is concerned, surely you are aware that Nova Roma
had one of those at the start? The switch to a Yahoogroup has not been
universally appreciated, but for the most part seems far more popular than
having to go to a web forum every time one wants to catch up on NR. It's
just easier for most people to have it in their e-mail inbox.

Cheers,
~ Valerianus

On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 7:57 AM, eagled2 <eagled2@...> wrote:

>
>
> I can and am willing to setup a forum and customize it for our group, but
> the problem is getting people to use it. From what i've heard many people
> have tried to start one up and it has never went anywhere. Unless you can
> get citizens to start using it I was looking for one built or at least
> officially recognized by the government of nova roma. I believe that's the
> only way to get people to trust it enough to actually use it. Like I said
> before someone had told me that they were in the process of re-designing the
> entire nova roma website and I haven't seen any evidence or updates of that
> in the years since I was told that.
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>, "Stefn
> Ullarsson Piparskeggr" <famila.ulleria.venii@...> wrote:
> >
> > Salve Barbatus;
> >
> > Here's one I set up (at a freeserve) in less than an hour.
> >
> >
> http://tavernaromana.netboards.org/index.php?sid=d26b6626878077031dc6dd8a9067e1c2
> >
> > ...and a blog I set up before my dad got ill and I lost the energy to
> > work on it...
> >
> > http://confoederatio-romana.webs.com/
> >
> > The tools are out there to come up with a site (or interlinked sites),
> > which will work with a group our size.
> >
> > =====================================
> > In amicitia et fide
> > Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator
> > Civis circa Quintilis MMDCCLI a.u.c.
> >
>
>
>


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