Selected messages in Nova-Roma group. Aug 1-20, 2011

Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85084 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2011-08-01
Subject: Kalendis Sextilibus - Spei, Victoriae, Martis Vltoris sacrum.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85085 From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com Date: 2011-08-01
Subject: After every Kalends, Nones, Ides, the next day is "Ater", 8/2/2011,
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85087 From: Cato Date: 2011-08-01
Subject: KALENDIS SEXTILIBUS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85088 From: Belle Morte Statia Date: 2011-08-02
Subject: Re: Conventus list closure?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85089 From: Cato Date: 2011-08-02
Subject: a.d. IV Non. Sext.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85090 From: Michel Lavau Date: 2011-08-02
Subject: Re: a.d. IV Non. Sext.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85091 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2011-08-02
Subject: Re: a.d. IV Non. Sext.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85092 From: Belle Morte Statia Date: 2011-08-02
Subject: Special Announcement: North American Conventus Nov. 24th-27th (Be Th
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85093 From: Tragedienne Date: 2011-08-02
Subject: Re: Special Announcement: North American Conventus Nov. 24th-27th (B
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85094 From: Cato Date: 2011-08-03
Subject: a.d. III Non. sext.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85095 From: Sabinus Date: 2011-08-03
Subject: EDICTUM CENSORIS IULII SABINI DE OFFICIO CENSORIS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85096 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2011-08-03
Subject: Favorable Auspices for the North American Conventus 2011 - Aves Admi
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85097 From: Belle Morte Statia Date: 2011-08-03
Subject: Re: Favorable Auspices for the North American Conventus 2011 - Aves
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85098 From: Cato Date: 2011-08-04
Subject: prid. Non. Sext.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85099 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2011-08-04
Subject: Classic Poetry, Prose, Proems, Literature Excerpts
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85100 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2011-08-04
Subject: family wikis for sacra privata et al.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85101 From: jeffery craft Date: 2011-08-04
Subject: bagpipes
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85102 From: Belle Morte Statia Date: 2011-08-04
Subject: Reposted Special Announcement: North American Conventus Nov. 24th-27
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85103 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2011-08-04
Subject: Re: bagpipes
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85104 From: Q Caecilius Metellus Date: 2011-08-05
Subject: Nundinal Calendar XIX: Non Sex through Id Sex
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85106 From: jeffery craft Date: 2011-08-05
Subject: Re: bagpipes
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85107 From: James V Hooper Date: 2011-08-05
Subject: Re: bagpipes
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85108 From: jeffery craft Date: 2011-08-05
Subject: Re: bagpipes
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85109 From: C.Maria Caeca Date: 2011-08-05
Subject: Re: bagpipes
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85110 From: jeffery craft Date: 2011-08-05
Subject: Re: bagpipes
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85111 From: Michel Lavau Date: 2011-08-05
Subject: Re: NONAE SEXTILIIS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85112 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2011-08-05
Subject: Re: bagpipes
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85114 From: Cato Date: 2011-08-05
Subject: NONIS SEXTILIBUS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85115 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2011-08-05
Subject: Senate Session Report for May {LATE}
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85116 From: Q Caecilius Metellus Date: 2011-08-05
Subject: Cista: Information Updates
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85117 From: Belle Morte Statia Date: 2011-08-05
Subject: Re: Cista: Information Updates
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85118 From: iulius sabinus Date: 2011-08-05
Subject: Re: Cista: Information Updates
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85119 From: Jean-François Arnoud Date: 2011-08-06
Subject: Re : [Nova-Roma] Senate Session Report for May {LATE}
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85120 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-06
Subject: Re: Re : [Nova-Roma] Senate Session Report for May {LATE}
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85121 From: Q Caecilius Metellus Date: 2011-08-06
Subject: Re: Senate Session Report for May {LATE}
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85122 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2011-08-06
Subject: Re: Senate Session Report for May {LATE}
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85123 From: Cato Date: 2011-08-07
Subject: a.d. VII Id. Sext.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85124 From: D. Cornelius Mento Date: 2011-08-07
Subject: Introduction
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85125 From: C.Maria Caeca Date: 2011-08-07
Subject: Re: Introduction
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85126 From: D. Cornelius Mento Date: 2011-08-07
Subject: Re: Introduction
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85127 From: C.Maria Caeca Date: 2011-08-07
Subject: Re: Introduction
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85128 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2011-08-07
Subject: Re: Introduction
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85129 From: D. Cornelius Mento Date: 2011-08-07
Subject: Re: Introduction
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85130 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2011-08-07
Subject: Re: Introduction
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85131 From: D. Cornelius Mento Date: 2011-08-07
Subject: Re: Introduction
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85132 From: Quintus Caecilius Metellus Date: 2011-08-07
Subject: Re: Introduction
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85133 From: D. Cornelius Mento Date: 2011-08-07
Subject: Re: Introduction
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85134 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2011-08-07
Subject: Re: Introduction
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85135 From: D. Cornelius Mento Date: 2011-08-07
Subject: Re: Introduction
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85136 From: Cn. Cornelius Lentulus Date: 2011-08-07
Subject: Nova Roma Reenactor Camp
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85137 From: C.Maria Caeca Date: 2011-08-07
Subject: Re: Nova Roma Reenactor Camp
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85138 From: Cn. Cornelius Lentulus Date: 2011-08-07
Subject: Re: Nova Roma Reenactor Camp
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85139 From: James V Hooper Date: 2011-08-07
Subject: Re: Introduction
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85140 From: iulius sabinus Date: 2011-08-08
Subject: Re: Nova Roma Reenactor Camp
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85141 From: Cato Date: 2011-08-08
Subject: a.d. VI Id. Sext.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85142 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-09
Subject: Very cool link
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85143 From: Cato Date: 2011-08-09
Subject: a.d. V Id. Sext.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85144 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2011-08-10
Subject: Responsum Augurum de Auspiciis pro Senatu
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85145 From: Cato Date: 2011-08-10
Subject: a.d. IV Id. Sext.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85146 From: Cato Date: 2011-08-11
Subject: a.d. III Id. Sext.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85147 From: Sabinus Date: 2011-08-12
Subject: Edictum censoris T. Iuli Sabini centuriatim tributimque.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85148 From: Cato Date: 2011-08-12
Subject: prid. Id. Sext.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85149 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2011-08-12
Subject: awesome blog & podcast - Ancient Rome Refocused!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85150 From: C.Maria Caeca Date: 2011-08-12
Subject: Re: awesome blog & podcast - Ancient Rome Refocused!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85151 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2011-08-13
Subject: Re: awesome blog & podcast - Ancient Rome Refocused!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85152 From: Cato Date: 2011-08-13
Subject: IDUS SEXTILIBUS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85153 From: Q Caecilius Metellus Date: 2011-08-13
Subject: Nundinal Calendar XX: Id Sex through XII Kal Sep
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85154 From: Timothy or Stephen Gallagher Date: 2011-08-13
Subject: Re: awesome blog & podcast - Ancient Rome Refocused!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85155 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2011-08-14
Subject: Re: awesome blog & podcast - Ancient Rome Refocused!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85156 From: Timothy or Stephen Gallagher Date: 2011-08-14
Subject: FW: [Explorator] explorator 14.17
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85157 From: Cn. Cornelius Lentulus Date: 2011-08-15
Subject: Nova Roma in the Hungarian TV News on the 6th NR Reenactor Camp Succ
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85158 From: iulius sabinus Date: 2011-08-15
Subject: Re: Nova Roma in the Hungarian TV News on the 6th NR Reenactor Camp
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85159 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2011-08-15
Subject: Re: Nova Roma in the Hungarian TV News on the 6th NR Reenactor Camp
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85160 From: Cato Date: 2011-08-15
Subject: a.d. XVIII Kal. Sept.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85161 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2011-08-15
Subject: Re: Nova Roma in the Hungarian TV News on the 6th NR Reenactor Camp
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85162 From: D. Cornelius Mento Date: 2011-08-15
Subject: Re: Nova Roma in the Hungarian TV News on the 6th NR Reenactor Camp
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85163 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2011-08-15
Subject: Re: Nova Roma in the Hungarian TV News on the 6th NR Reenactor Camp
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85164 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2011-08-15
Subject: Re: Nova Roma in the Hungarian TV News on the 6th NR Reenactor Camp
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85165 From: D. Cornelius Mento Date: 2011-08-15
Subject: Re: Nova Roma in the Hungarian TV News on the 6th NR Reenactor Camp
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85166 From: D. Cornelius Mento Date: 2011-08-15
Subject: Re: Nova Roma in the Hungarian TV News on the 6th NR Reenactor Camp
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85167 From: Belle Morte Statia Date: 2011-08-16
Subject: Re: Nova Roma in the Hungarian TV News on the 6th NR Reenactor Camp
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85168 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2011-08-16
Subject: Portunalia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85169 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2011-08-16
Subject: The accession of a young Roman to "Vestal Virgins"
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85170 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2011-08-16
Subject: Re: Portunalia + anti-flood ritual
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85171 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2011-08-16
Subject: Sacella in Middle Tennessee
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85172 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2011-08-16
Subject: Roman Virtues: Auctoritas
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85173 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2011-08-16
Subject: Re: Portunalia A Day Early! + anti-flood ritual
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85174 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2011-08-17
Subject: Roman Virtues: Auctoritas
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85175 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2011-08-17
Subject: PORTVNALIA - ANNO MMDCCLXIV -
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85176 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2011-08-17
Subject: Re: Roman Virtues: Auctoritas
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85177 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2011-08-17
Subject: Re: PORTVNALIA - ANNO MMDCCLXIV -
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85178 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2011-08-17
Subject: Re: Roman Virtues: Auctoritas
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85179 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2011-08-17
Subject: "newroman" list issue
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85180 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-17
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85181 From: C.Maria Caeca Date: 2011-08-17
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85182 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2011-08-17
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85183 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2011-08-17
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85184 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-17
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85185 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-17
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85186 From: iulius sabinus Date: 2011-08-17
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85187 From: C.Maria Caeca Date: 2011-08-17
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85188 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2011-08-17
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85189 From: Belle Morte Statia Date: 2011-08-17
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85190 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2011-08-17
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85191 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2011-08-17
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85192 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2011-08-17
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85193 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-17
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85194 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2011-08-17
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85195 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-17
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85196 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2011-08-18
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85197 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2011-08-18
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85198 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2011-08-18
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85199 From: Cato Date: 2011-08-18
Subject: a.d. XV Kal. Sept.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85200 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2011-08-18
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85201 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-18
Subject: Nova Roman Community
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85202 From: C.Maria Caeca Date: 2011-08-18
Subject: Re: [newroman] Roman Virtues: Auctoritas
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85203 From: eljefe3126@netscape.net Date: 2011-08-18
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85204 From: iulius sabinus Date: 2011-08-18
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85205 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2011-08-18
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85206 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-18
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85207 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2011-08-18
Subject: Re: [Nova_roma_] Re: [newroman] Roman Virtues: Auctoritas
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85208 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2011-08-18
Subject: Re: [newroman] Roman Virtues: Auctoritas
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85209 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-18
Subject: Re: [Nova_roma_] Re: [newroman] Roman Virtues: Auctoritas
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85210 From: C.Maria Caeca Date: 2011-08-18
Subject: Re: [Nova_roma_] Re: [newroman] Roman Virtues: Auctoritas
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85211 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2011-08-18
Subject: [Nova_roma_] Re: [newroman] Roman Virtues: Auctoritas
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85212 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: Roman Virtues: Auctoritas
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85213 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: No coup? O Rly?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85214 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: After the veto... (no coup o' Rly part 2)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85215 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Fwd: Closing the ML Option by Saturnius (one of the Coup Plotters)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85216 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: Closing the ML Option by Saturnius (one of the Coup Plotters)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85217 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: And the debate continues......
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85218 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Immediately followed by:
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85219 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Statement from Consul Albucius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85220 From: V. Valerius Volusus Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: [Nova_roma_] Re: [newroman] Roman Virtues: Auctoritas
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85221 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: [Nova_roma_] Re: [newroman] Roman Virtues: Auctoritas
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85222 From: Cn. Cornelius Lentulus Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: R: [Nova-Roma] No coup? O Rly?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85223 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85224 From: V. Valerius Volusus Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: [Nova_roma_] Re: [newroman] Roman Virtues: Auctoritas
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85225 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: [Nova_roma_] Re: [newroman] Roman Virtues: Auctoritas
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85226 From: C.Maria Caeca Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Auctoritas and ...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85227 From: Robert Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] No coup? O Rly?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85228 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: No coup? O Rly?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85229 From: Robert Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: No coup? O Rly?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85230 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: No coup? O Rly?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85231 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: Law Admin "newroman" list issue
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85232 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: No coup? O Rly?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85233 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: No coup? O Rly?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85234 From: V. Valerius Volusus Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: No coup? O Rly?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85235 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: Law Admin "newroman" list issue
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85236 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: No coup? O Rly?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85237 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: No coup? O Rly?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85238 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: No coup? O Rly?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85239 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: Roman Virtues: Auctoritas
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85240 From: Timothy or Stephen Gallagher Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: IT costs and off the self software.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85241 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: IT costs and off the self software.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85242 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Current IT Situation Update
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85243 From: Belle Morte Statia Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85244 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: No coup? O Rly?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85245 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85246 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: IT costs and off the self software.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85247 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: IT costs and off the self software.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85248 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: IT costs and off the self software.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85249 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: IT costs and off the self software.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85250 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: IT costs and off the self software.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85251 From: Timothy or Stephen Gallagher Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: IT costs and off the self software.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85252 From: Q Caecilius Metellus Date: 2011-08-20
Subject: Re: IT costs and off the self software.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85253 From: Diana Octavia Date: 2011-08-20
Subject: Re: IT costs and off the self software.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85254 From: Cn. Iulius Caesar Date: 2011-08-20
Subject: Re: IT costs and off the self software.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85255 From: Gaia Valeria Pulchra Date: 2011-08-20
Subject: Re: IT costs and off the self software.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85256 From: V. Valerius Volusus Date: 2011-08-20
Subject: Re: IT costs and off the self software.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85257 From: Gaia Valeria Pulchra Date: 2011-08-20
Subject: Re: IT costs and off the self software.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85258 From: V. Valerius Volusus Date: 2011-08-20
Subject: Re: IT costs and off the self software.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85259 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2011-08-20
Subject: Re: IT costs and off the self software.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85260 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2011-08-20
Subject: Re: IT costs and off the self software.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85261 From: Cn. Iulius Caesar Date: 2011-08-20
Subject: Re: IT costs and off the self software.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85262 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-20
Subject: Re: IT costs and off the self software.



Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85084 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2011-08-01
Subject: Kalendis Sextilibus - Spei, Victoriae, Martis Vltoris sacrum.
C. Petronius Dexter P. M. omnibus salutem plurimam dicit,

Hodie sunt Kalendae Sextiles, hic dies fastus est,
dies Laribus Compitalibus sacratus,
Spei et Victoriae et Martis Vltoris sacra.

This day, I invoke Iuno Covella with the traditional formula:

"Die te quinti kalo, Iuno Covella"

I said good prayers asking the Goddess to be favorable toward
us, New Romans.

I offered incense and poured milk as sacrifice and honey as piaculum.

-------------------------------------------------------------


The festivals to be celebrated in the month of August will be:

E 1 Kal. Sex. F
F 2 a.d. IV Non. Sex. F Ater
G 3 a.d. III Non. Sex. C
H 4 pr. Non. Sex. C
A 5 Non. Sex. F Nundina
B 6 a.d. VIII Id. Sex. F Ater
C 7 a.d. VII Id. Sex. C
D 8 a.d. VI Id. Sex. C
E 9 a.d. V Id. Sex. C
F 10 a.d. IV Id. Sex. C
G 11 a.d. III Id. Sex. C
H 12 pr. Id. Sex. C
A 13 Id. Sex. NP Feriae Iovi ; Nundina
B 14 a.d. XIX Kal. Sep. F Ater
C 15 a.d. XVIII Kal. Sep. C
D 16 a.d. XVII Kal. Sep. C
E 17 a.d. XVI Kal. Sep. NP Portunalia
F 18 a.d. XV Kal. Sep. C
G 19 a.d. XIV Kal. Sep. FP Vinalia Rustica
H 20 a.d. XIII Kal. Sep. C
A 21 a.d. XII Kal. Sep. NP Consualia ; Nundina
B 22 a.d. XI Kal. Sep. EN
C 23 a.d. X Kal. Sep. NP Volcanalia
D 24 a.d. IX Kal. Sep. C Mundus patet
E 25 a.d. VIII Kal. Sep. NP Opiconsivia
F 26 a.d. VII Kal. Sep. C
G 27 a.d. VI Kal. Sep. NP Volturnalia
H 28 a.d. V Kal. Sep. C
A 29 a.d. IV Kal. Sep. [F] Nundina
B 30 a.d. III Kal. Sep. [F]
C 31 pr. Kal. Sep. C

-------------------------------------------------------------


--
C. Petronius Dexter
Pontifex Maximus Arcoiali scribebat
Kalendis Sextilibus P. Vllerio C. Equitio coss.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85085 From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com Date: 2011-08-01
Subject: After every Kalends, Nones, Ides, the next day is "Ater", 8/2/2011,
Reminder from:   Nova-Roma Yahoo! Group
 
Title:   After every Kalends, Nones, Ides, the next day is "Ater"
 
Date:   Tuesday August 2, 2011
Time:   All Day
Repeats:   This event repeats every month.
Notes:   Ater (unlucky)
*Gods or Goddesses should not be invoked by name while indoors, and no celestial God or Goddess should be invoked by name while outdoors.
*Sacrifices should not be made, even at the lararium.
*These days are ill-omened to begin any new project since any new project would necessarily begin by performing a rite calling for the assistance of the gods. Such religious rites, beginning something new, are not to be performed.
*Avoid making journeys, or doing anything risky.
 
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85087 From: Cato Date: 2011-08-01
Subject: KALENDIS SEXTILIBUS
Cato omnibus in foro SPD

Hodiernus dies est Kalendis Sextilibus; hic dies fastus est.

"The Sun with sultry Sirius now doth rise
And Jove's red lightning flashes from the skies:
The angry gods heaven's arm'ry open flings,
And whizzing bolts ride forth on burning wings." - Anson Allen,
"Newtonian Reflector" (AD 1825)

"Whereas the Emperor Augustus Caesar, in the month of Sextillis...thrice entered
the city in triumph...and in the same month
Egypt was brought under the authority of the Roman people, and in the
same month an end was put to the civil wars; and whereas for these
reasons the said month is, and has been, most fortunate to this
empire, it is hereby decreed by the senate that the said month shall
be called Augustus."

On this day, temples were dedicated to Spes, the Victories, and Mars
Ultor.

"The woman [Pandora], with her hands lifting away the lid from the
great jar, scattered its contents, and her design was sad troubles for
mankind. Elpis (Hope) was the only spirit that stayed there in the
unbreakable closure of the jar, under its rim, and could not fly forth
abroad, for the lid of the great jar closed down first and contained
her; this was by the will of cloud-gathering Zeus of the aegis." -
Hesiod, Works and Days

"Elpis (Hope) is the only good god remaining among mankind; the others
have left and gone to Olympos. Pistis (Trust), a mighty god has gone,
Sophrosyne (Restraint) has gone from men, and the Kharites, my friend,
have abandoned the earth. Men's judicial oaths are no longer to be
trusted, nor does anyone revere the immortal gods; the race of pious
men has perished and men no longer recognize the rules of conduct or
acts of piety. But as long as man lives and sees the light of the sun,
let him show piety to the gods and count on Elpis (Hope). Let him pray
to the gods and burn splendid thigh bones, sacrificing to Elpis (Hope)
first and last." - Greek Elegaic Theognis, Frag 1.1135

Spes is the goddess of hope. She was traditionally defined as "the
last goddess" (Spes, ultima dea), meaning that hope is the last
resource available to men. Her temple was in the Forum Holitorium. In
art, Spes was depicted hitching her skirt while holding a cornucopia
and flowers. Spes personified hope for good harvests, and for
children, and was invoked at births, marriages, and other important
times. Her Greek equivalent is Elpis.


The Temple of Mars Ultor (the Avenger) was built by the Emperor
Augustus for a variety of reasons. Of course it served as the focal
point of his forum, located in the centrally and the rear (following
the example set by Iulius Caesar with his Temple of Venus Genetrix)
and closing off the space at the back of the forum in this manner
blocked the view of the Roman tenements.

But the reasons for this temple go far beyond the practical ones. By
making his temple to Mars the Avenger, Augustus pointedly reminded the
Roman people of that he had avenged the death of Iulius Caesar who had
recently been canonized by the Roman Senate. He also reminded the
Senate and the People that he stuck his oath before the battle of
Actium, remaining faithful to the Roman religion; he clearly believed
in the Roman Virtues, especially Pietas, Gravitas, and Dignitas. These
blunt statements made by Augustus in the temple gave himself a
glorified and deified ancestry, characteristics, and persona, all
suggesting his own worthiness as an Imperator and a potential deity.

Valete bene!

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85088 From: Belle Morte Statia Date: 2011-08-02
Subject: Re: Conventus list closure?
Sta. Cornelia Aeternia. L. Cornelius Sullae Omnibusque S.P.D.

Yes I know this took a while for me to answer.. I am alive sorta..

I have closed the list for many reasons, the planning as I strategized in my
head looked great in the brain worked horribly on e-mail format.

Plus it made no sense to keep the list, when those particular individuals on
such said list, were not assisting in the co-ordinating in the
infrastructure as hoped for. For many of them mundane life got in the way,
which in a sense is very understandable.

The planning of the Conventus takes place in my living room, so having a
list for it seems rather moot.


Vale Optime,
Aeternia


On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 6:42 PM, Robert Woolwine
<robert.woolwine@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> Ave!
>
> Tink, why did you close the Conventus list?
>
> Vale,
>
> Sulla
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85089 From: Cato Date: 2011-08-02
Subject: a.d. IV Non. Sext.
Cato omnibus in foro SPD

Hodiernus dies est ante diem IV Nones Sextiles; hic dies fastus est.

"Then there was flight in all directions; 7000 men escaped to the
smaller camp, 10,000 to the larger, and about 2000 to the village of
Cannae. These latter were at once surrounded by Carthalo and his
cavalry, as the village was quite unfortified. The other consul, who
either by accident or design had not joined any of these bodies of
fugitives, escaped with about fifty cavalry to Venusia; 45,500
infantry, 2700 cavalry - almost an equal proportion of Romans and
allies - are said to have been killed. Amongst the number were both
the quaestors attached to the consuls, L. Atilius and L. Furius
Bibulcus, twenty-nine military tribunes, several ex-consuls,
ex-praetors, and ex-aediles (amongst them are included Cn. Servilius
Geminus and M. Minucius, who was Master of the Horse the previous year
and, some years before that, consul), and in addition to these, eighty
men who had either been senators or filled offices qualifying them for
election to the senate and who had volunteered for service with the
legions. The prisoners taken in the battle are stated to have amounted
to 3000 infantry and 1500 cavalry. Never before, while the City
itself was still safe, had there been such excitement and panic within
its walls. I shall not attempt to describe it, nor will I weaken the
reality by going into detailsÂ… it was not wound upon wound but
multiplied disaster that was now announced. For according to the
reports two consular armies and two consuls were lost; there was no
longer any Roman camp, any general, any single soldier in existence;
Apulia, Samnium, almost the whole of Italy lay at Hannibal's feet.
Certainly there is no other nation that would not have succumbed
beneath such a weight of calamity." - Livy, History of Rome XXII.49-50

"Such was the end of the battle of Cannae, in which both sides fought
with the most conspicuous gallantry, the conquered no less than the
conquerors. This is proved by the fact that, out of six thousand
horse, only seventy escaped with Caius Terentius to Venusia, and about
three hundred of the allied cavalry to various towns in the
neighborhood. Of the infantry ten thousand were taken prisoners in
fair fight, but were not actually engaged in the battle: of those who
were actually engaged only about three thousand perhaps escaped to the
towns of the surrounding district; all the rest died nobly, to the
number of seventy thousand, the Carthaginians being on this occasion,
as on previous ones, mainly indebted for their victory to their
superiority in cavalry: a lesson to posterity that in actual war it is
better to have half the number of infantry, and the superiority in
cavalry, than to engage your enemy with an equality in both. On the
side of Hannibal there fell four thousand Celts, fifteen hundred
Iberians and Libyans, and about two hundred horse.

The ten thousand Romans who were captured had not, as I said, been
engaged in the actual battle; and the reason was this. Lucius Aemilius
left ten thousand infantry in his camp that, in case Hannibal should
disregard the safety of his own camp, and take his whole army onto the
field, they might seize the opportunity, while the battle was going
on, of forcing their way in and capturing the enemy's baggage; or if,
on the other hand, Hannibal should, in view of this contingency, leave
a guard in his camp, the number of the enemy in the field might
thereby be diminished. These men were captured in the field in the
following circumstances. Hannibal, as a matter of fact, did leave a
sufficient guard in his camp; and as soon as the battle began, the
Romans, according to their instructions, assaulted and tried to take
those thus left by Hannibal. At first they held their own: but just as
they were beginning to waver, Hannibal, who was by this time gaining a
victory all along the line, came to their relief, and routing the
Romans, shut them up in their own camp; killed two thousand of them;
and took all the rest prisoners. In like manner the Numidian horse
brought in all those who had taken refuge in the various strongholds
about the district, amounting to two thousand of the routed cavalry."
- Polyibius, "The Roman Histories" III.117

Today is the anniversary of the Battle of Cannae, the greatest defeat
Rome ever suffered. The newly elected Roman Consuls, Gaius Terentius
Varro and Lucius Aemilius Paullus, who had both run on a platform of
taking the war to Hannibal, were anxious to begin their tenure with
military achievement. Counter to the delaying tactics of the Dictator
Fabius Maximus, Varro and Paulus immediately formed a large force to
deal with the Carthaginians ravaging southern Italy. While ancient
sources offer conflicting reports, it can be safe to assume that
between the two, Consuls, they levied a force of nearly 80,000 men.

Hannibal meanwhile, still attempting to subvert Roman authority in the
allied areas of Italy, was waiting for the Roman with approximately
40,000 men; Gauls, Carthaginians and Numidian cavalry. Despite the
popular conception that the elephants played a major role in the
campaign, by this time, all of his elephants had died. Hannibal,
despite his numerical inferiority had such an overwhelming strategic
edge, that he was eager to meet the new Roman challenge.
Theoretically, the Roman tactic of crushing Hannibal between two large
armies should have spelled his doom, but Hannibal's brilliance allowed
him to turn the tables once the engagement got under way.

On August 2, 216 BC, in the Apulian plain, near Cannae and near the
mouth of the Aufidus River, the 2 great armies came face to face. The
Consul Varro was in command on the first day for the Romans, as the
consuls alternated commands as they marched. Paullus, it has been
suggested, was opposed to the engagement as it was taking shape, but
regardless still brought his force to bear. The two armies positioned
their lines and soon advanced against one another.

The cavalry was to meet first on the flanks. Hasdrubal, commanding the
Numidians, quickly overpowered the inferior Romans on the right flank
and routed them. Pushing them into the river and scattering any
opposing infantry in his path, Hasdrubal dominated the right flank and
was quickly able to get in the rear of the enemy lines. While the much
superior Numidians dealt quickly with their Roman counterparts, such
was not the case with the infantry.

As Hasdrubal was routing the Roman horse, the mass of infantry on both
sides advanced towards each other in the middle of the field. The
Iberian and Gallic Celts on the Carthaginian side, while fierce, were
no match for Roman armament and close-quartered combat. Initially, the
vast numerical advantage of the Legions pushed deep into the middle of
the Carthaginians. While the Celts were pushed back, they didn't
break, however. They held as firm as they could, while Hasdrubal's
cavalry pushed around to the rear of the enemy and the Carthaginian
infantry held firm on the immediate flanks. The Romans soon found that
their success in the middle was pushing them into a potential
disaster. As they victoriously fought farther into the center of
Hannibal's lines, they were actually walking themselves right into
being completely encircled.

Just as the Romans were on the brink of crushing the enemy center, the
Carthaginian flanks were brought to bear and the pressure pinned in
the Roman advance. Hasdrubals' cavalry completed the circle by forcing
the rear of the Roman line to turn back and form a square. All around,
the massive bulk of the Roman army was forced into confined space.
Hannibal brought his archers and slingers to bear and the result in
the confines was devastating. Unable to continue the original break
through against the Celts in the center of Hannibal's lines, the
Romans were easy prey for the Carthaginians. Hannibal, with complete
fury, encouraged his own men, under fear of the lash, if they weren't
zealous enough in the slaughter.

In the midst of the battle the Consul, Paullus, was wounded (either
early or late depending on Livy or Polybius as the source). He
valiantly attempted to maintain the Roman ranks, though vainly. While
the commander of the day, Varro, fled the battle, Paullus stayed the
course trying to save his army. In the end, it was a terrible
slaughter and Paullus would be dead with the bulk of his men. Romans
trying to escape were hamstrung as they ran, so the Carthaginians
could concentrate on those who were still fighting, but allow time to
return and kill the crippled later. In a fast and furious display of
death, Hannibal ordered his men to stand down only a few short hours
after they originally encircled the enemy.

On a small strip of land where the Romans were bottled up, estimates
as high as 60,000 corpses were piled one on top of another. Another
3,000 Romans were captured and more staggered into villages
surrounding the battlefield. Hannibal, however, still trying to win
the hearts of the Italian Roman allies, once again released the
prisoners, much to the dismay of his commanders. In salute to the
fallen Paullus, Hannibal also honored him with ceremonial rituals in
recognition of his valiant actions.

In the end, perhaps only as many as 15,000 Romans managed to escape
with Varro. These survivors were later reconstituted as two units and
assigned to Sicily for the remainder of the war as punishment for
their loss. Along with Paullus, both of the Quaestors were killed, as
well as 29 out of 48 military tribunes and an additional 80 other
senators (at a time when the Roman Senate was no more than 300 men).
The rings signifying membership in the Senate and from those of
Equestrian (Knight class or the elite class after Patrician) status
were collected from the dead in baskets and later thrown onto the
floor of the Carthaginian Senate in disrespect. In contrast,
Hannibal's losses numbered only between 6,000 and 7,000 men, of whom,
these were mostly his Celtic recruits. Once again Hannibal proved
brilliant in battlefield strategy, using the enemy's tactics against
itself and routing an army twice the size of his own. In less than a
year since the disaster at Trasimenus, the Roman's greatest loss was
in history put the state into a panic. There was nothing keeping
Hannibal from sacking Rome itself at this point, other than Hannibal.
His generals again urged him to not waste any more effort and go for
the final kill, but Hannibal was reluctant. Still believing he
couldn't take Rome itself, he preferred his strategy of pursuing
revolt among the Roman allies.

Despite this tremendous loss, the following defection of many allied
cities, and the declaration of war by Philip of Macedon that was soon
to come, the Romans showed a resiliency that defined them as people.
According to Livy, "No other nation in the world could have suffered
so tremendous a series of disasters and not been overwhelmed." The
truth of that nature was self evident. While some in the Senate, such
as Lucius Caecilius Metellus were ready to abandon the Republic as a
lost cause, others like Scipio propped up the flagging Roman spirit
with encouragement and undying oaths of loyalty to Rome.

Shortly after Cannae, the Romans rallied back, declaring full
mobilization. Another dictator, M. Junius Pera, was elected to
stabilize the Republic. New legions were raised with conscripts from
previous untouched citizen classes. As the land owning population was
heavily diminished by losses to Hannibal, the Romans took advantage of
the masses. Those in debt were released from their obligations,
non-land owners were recruited and even slaves were freed to join the
legions. In so doing, the Romans also refused to pay ransoms to
Hannibal for any captured legionaries who still remained. Hannibal, it
was suggested, lost his spirit, understanding that Rome would rather
sacrifice its own than surrender anything to him. While fortune would
still be with Hannibal for some time, the war of attrition would only
benefit Rome.

Valete bene!

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85090 From: Michel Lavau Date: 2011-08-02
Subject: Re: a.d. IV Non. Sext.
M. Furius Camillus Catoni S.P.D.

Hodiernus dies est ante diem IV Nonas Sextiles.

Vale !


--- On Tue, 8/2/11, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:

From: Cato <catoinnyc@...>
Subject: [Nova-Roma] a.d. IV Non. Sext.
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, August 2, 2011, 4:20 PM







 









Cato omnibus in foro SPD



Hodiernus dies est ante diem IV Nones Sextiles; hic dies fastus est.



"Then there was flight in all directions; 7000 men escaped to the

smaller camp, 10,000 to the larger, and about 2000 to the village of

Cannae. These latter were at once surrounded by Carthalo and his

cavalry, as the village was quite unfortified. The other consul, who

either by accident or design had not joined any of these bodies of

fugitives, escaped with about fifty cavalry to Venusia; 45,500

infantry, 2700 cavalry - almost an equal proportion of Romans and

allies - are said to have been killed. Amongst the number were both

the quaestors attached to the consuls, L. Atilius and L. Furius

Bibulcus, twenty-nine military tribunes, several ex-consuls,

ex-praetors, and ex-aediles (amongst them are included Cn. Servilius

Geminus and M. Minucius, who was Master of the Horse the previous year

and, some years before that, consul), and in addition to these, eighty

men who had either been senators or filled offices qualifying them for

election to the senate and who had volunteered for service with the

legions. The prisoners taken in the battle are stated to have amounted

to 3000 infantry and 1500 cavalry. Never before, while the City

itself was still safe, had there been such excitement and panic within

its walls. I shall not attempt to describe it, nor will I weaken the

reality by going into details… it was not wound upon wound but

multiplied disaster that was now announced. For according to the

reports two consular armies and two consuls were lost; there was no

longer any Roman camp, any general, any single soldier in existence;

Apulia, Samnium, almost the whole of Italy lay at Hannibal's feet.

Certainly there is no other nation that would not have succumbed

beneath such a weight of calamity." - Livy, History of Rome XXII.49-50



"Such was the end of the battle of Cannae, in which both sides fought

with the most conspicuous gallantry, the conquered no less than the

conquerors. This is proved by the fact that, out of six thousand

horse, only seventy escaped with Caius Terentius to Venusia, and about

three hundred of the allied cavalry to various towns in the

neighborhood. Of the infantry ten thousand were taken prisoners in

fair fight, but were not actually engaged in the battle: of those who

were actually engaged only about three thousand perhaps escaped to the

towns of the surrounding district; all the rest died nobly, to the

number of seventy thousand, the Carthaginians being on this occasion,

as on previous ones, mainly indebted for their victory to their

superiority in cavalry: a lesson to posterity that in actual war it is

better to have half the number of infantry, and the superiority in

cavalry, than to engage your enemy with an equality in both. On the

side of Hannibal there fell four thousand Celts, fifteen hundred

Iberians and Libyans, and about two hundred horse.



The ten thousand Romans who were captured had not, as I said, been

engaged in the actual battle; and the reason was this. Lucius Aemilius

left ten thousand infantry in his camp that, in case Hannibal should

disregard the safety of his own camp, and take his whole army onto the

field, they might seize the opportunity, while the battle was going

on, of forcing their way in and capturing the enemy's baggage; or if,

on the other hand, Hannibal should, in view of this contingency, leave

a guard in his camp, the number of the enemy in the field might

thereby be diminished. These men were captured in the field in the

following circumstances. Hannibal, as a matter of fact, did leave a

sufficient guard in his camp; and as soon as the battle began, the

Romans, according to their instructions, assaulted and tried to take

those thus left by Hannibal. At first they held their own: but just as

they were beginning to waver, Hannibal, who was by this time gaining a

victory all along the line, came to their relief, and routing the

Romans, shut them up in their own camp; killed two thousand of them;

and took all the rest prisoners. In like manner the Numidian horse

brought in all those who had taken refuge in the various strongholds

about the district, amounting to two thousand of the routed cavalry."

- Polyibius, "The Roman Histories" III.117



Today is the anniversary of the Battle of Cannae, the greatest defeat

Rome ever suffered. The newly elected Roman Consuls, Gaius Terentius

Varro and Lucius Aemilius Paullus, who had both run on a platform of

taking the war to Hannibal, were anxious to begin their tenure with

military achievement. Counter to the delaying tactics of the Dictator

Fabius Maximus, Varro and Paulus immediately formed a large force to

deal with the Carthaginians ravaging southern Italy. While ancient

sources offer conflicting reports, it can be safe to assume that

between the two, Consuls, they levied a force of nearly 80,000 men.



Hannibal meanwhile, still attempting to subvert Roman authority in the

allied areas of Italy, was waiting for the Roman with approximately

40,000 men; Gauls, Carthaginians and Numidian cavalry. Despite the

popular conception that the elephants played a major role in the

campaign, by this time, all of his elephants had died. Hannibal,

despite his numerical inferiority had such an overwhelming strategic

edge, that he was eager to meet the new Roman challenge.

Theoretically, the Roman tactic of crushing Hannibal between two large

armies should have spelled his doom, but Hannibal's brilliance allowed

him to turn the tables once the engagement got under way.



On August 2, 216 BC, in the Apulian plain, near Cannae and near the

mouth of the Aufidus River, the 2 great armies came face to face. The

Consul Varro was in command on the first day for the Romans, as the

consuls alternated commands as they marched. Paullus, it has been

suggested, was opposed to the engagement as it was taking shape, but

regardless still brought his force to bear. The two armies positioned

their lines and soon advanced against one another.



The cavalry was to meet first on the flanks. Hasdrubal, commanding the

Numidians, quickly overpowered the inferior Romans on the right flank

and routed them. Pushing them into the river and scattering any

opposing infantry in his path, Hasdrubal dominated the right flank and

was quickly able to get in the rear of the enemy lines. While the much

superior Numidians dealt quickly with their Roman counterparts, such

was not the case with the infantry.



As Hasdrubal was routing the Roman horse, the mass of infantry on both

sides advanced towards each other in the middle of the field. The

Iberian and Gallic Celts on the Carthaginian side, while fierce, were

no match for Roman armament and close-quartered combat. Initially, the

vast numerical advantage of the Legions pushed deep into the middle of

the Carthaginians. While the Celts were pushed back, they didn't

break, however. They held as firm as they could, while Hasdrubal's

cavalry pushed around to the rear of the enemy and the Carthaginian

infantry held firm on the immediate flanks. The Romans soon found that

their success in the middle was pushing them into a potential

disaster. As they victoriously fought farther into the center of

Hannibal's lines, they were actually walking themselves right into

being completely encircled.



Just as the Romans were on the brink of crushing the enemy center, the

Carthaginian flanks were brought to bear and the pressure pinned in

the Roman advance. Hasdrubals' cavalry completed the circle by forcing

the rear of the Roman line to turn back and form a square. All around,

the massive bulk of the Roman army was forced into confined space.

Hannibal brought his archers and slingers to bear and the result in

the confines was devastating. Unable to continue the original break

through against the Celts in the center of Hannibal's lines, the

Romans were easy prey for the Carthaginians. Hannibal, with complete

fury, encouraged his own men, under fear of the lash, if they weren't

zealous enough in the slaughter.



In the midst of the battle the Consul, Paullus, was wounded (either

early or late depending on Livy or Polybius as the source). He

valiantly attempted to maintain the Roman ranks, though vainly. While

the commander of the day, Varro, fled the battle, Paullus stayed the

course trying to save his army. In the end, it was a terrible

slaughter and Paullus would be dead with the bulk of his men. Romans

trying to escape were hamstrung as they ran, so the Carthaginians

could concentrate on those who were still fighting, but allow time to

return and kill the crippled later. In a fast and furious display of

death, Hannibal ordered his men to stand down only a few short hours

after they originally encircled the enemy.



On a small strip of land where the Romans were bottled up, estimates

as high as 60,000 corpses were piled one on top of another. Another

3,000 Romans were captured and more staggered into villages

surrounding the battlefield. Hannibal, however, still trying to win

the hearts of the Italian Roman allies, once again released the

prisoners, much to the dismay of his commanders. In salute to the

fallen Paullus, Hannibal also honored him with ceremonial rituals in

recognition of his valiant actions.



In the end, perhaps only as many as 15,000 Romans managed to escape

with Varro. These survivors were later reconstituted as two units and

assigned to Sicily for the remainder of the war as punishment for

their loss. Along with Paullus, both of the Quaestors were killed, as

well as 29 out of 48 military tribunes and an additional 80 other

senators (at a time when the Roman Senate was no more than 300 men).

The rings signifying membership in the Senate and from those of

Equestrian (Knight class or the elite class after Patrician) status

were collected from the dead in baskets and later thrown onto the

floor of the Carthaginian Senate in disrespect. In contrast,

Hannibal's losses numbered only between 6,000 and 7,000 men, of whom,

these were mostly his Celtic recruits. Once again Hannibal proved

brilliant in battlefield strategy, using the enemy's tactics against

itself and routing an army twice the size of his own. In less than a

year since the disaster at Trasimenus, the Roman's greatest loss was

in history put the state into a panic. There was nothing keeping

Hannibal from sacking Rome itself at this point, other than Hannibal.

His generals again urged him to not waste any more effort and go for

the final kill, but Hannibal was reluctant. Still believing he

couldn't take Rome itself, he preferred his strategy of pursuing

revolt among the Roman allies.



Despite this tremendous loss, the following defection of many allied

cities, and the declaration of war by Philip of Macedon that was soon

to come, the Romans showed a resiliency that defined them as people.

According to Livy, "No other nation in the world could have suffered

so tremendous a series of disasters and not been overwhelmed." The

truth of that nature was self evident. While some in the Senate, such

as Lucius Caecilius Metellus were ready to abandon the Republic as a

lost cause, others like Scipio propped up the flagging Roman spirit

with encouragement and undying oaths of loyalty to Rome.



Shortly after Cannae, the Romans rallied back, declaring full

mobilization. Another dictator, M. Junius Pera, was elected to

stabilize the Republic. New legions were raised with conscripts from

previous untouched citizen classes. As the land owning population was

heavily diminished by losses to Hannibal, the Romans took advantage of

the masses. Those in debt were released from their obligations,

non-land owners were recruited and even slaves were freed to join the

legions. In so doing, the Romans also refused to pay ransoms to

Hannibal for any captured legionaries who still remained. Hannibal, it

was suggested, lost his spirit, understanding that Rome would rather

sacrifice its own than surrender anything to him. While fortune would

still be with Hannibal for some time, the war of attrition would only

benefit Rome.



Valete bene!



Cato






















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85091 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2011-08-02
Subject: Re: a.d. IV Non. Sext.
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica M. Furio Camillo C. Equitio Catoni quiritibus bonae
> voluntatis S.P.D.
>
>
>
> M. Furius Camillus Catoni S.P.D.
>
> Hodiernus dies est ante diem IV Nonas Sextiles.
>
> ATS: Et fortasse melius Hodie est....
>
> Vale !
>
> Valete!
>
> --- On Tue, 8/2/11, Cato <catoinnyc@... <mailto:catoinnyc%40gmail.com> >
> wrote:
>
> From: Cato <catoinnyc@... <mailto:catoinnyc%40gmail.com> >
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] a.d. IV Non. Sext.
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tuesday, August 2, 2011, 4:20 PM
>
>  
>
> Cato omnibus in foro SPD
>
> Hodiernus dies est ante diem IV Nones Sextiles; hic dies fastus est.
>
> "Then there was flight in all directions; 7000 men escaped to the
>
> smaller camp, 10,000 to the larger, and about 2000 to the village of
>
> Cannae. These latter were at once surrounded by Carthalo and his
>
> cavalry, as the village was quite unfortified. The other consul, who
>
> either by accident or design had not joined any of these bodies of
>
> fugitives, escaped with about fifty cavalry to Venusia; 45,500
>
> infantry, 2700 cavalry - almost an equal proportion of Romans and
>
> allies - are said to have been killed. Amongst the number were both
>
> the quaestors attached to the consuls, L. Atilius and L. Furius
>
> Bibulcus, twenty-nine military tribunes, several ex-consuls,
>
> ex-praetors, and ex-aediles (amongst them are included Cn. Servilius
>
> Geminus and M. Minucius, who was Master of the Horse the previous year
>
> and, some years before that, consul), and in addition to these, eighty
>
> men who had either been senators or filled offices qualifying them for
>
> election to the senate and who had volunteered for service with the
>
> legions. The prisoners taken in the battle are stated to have amounted
>
> to 3000 infantry and 1500 cavalry. Never before, while the City
>
> itself was still safe, had there been such excitement and panic within
>
> its walls. I shall not attempt to describe it, nor will I weaken the
>
> reality by going into detailsŠ it was not wound upon wound but
>
> multiplied disaster that was now announced. For according to the
>
> reports two consular armies and two consuls were lost; there was no
>
> longer any Roman camp, any general, any single soldier in existence;
>
> Apulia, Samnium, almost the whole of Italy lay at Hannibal's feet.
>
> Certainly there is no other nation that would not have succumbed
>
> beneath such a weight of calamity." - Livy, History of Rome XXII.49-50
>
> "Such was the end of the battle of Cannae, in which both sides fought
>
> with the most conspicuous gallantry, the conquered no less than the
>
> conquerors. This is proved by the fact that, out of six thousand
>
> horse, only seventy escaped with Caius Terentius to Venusia, and about
>
> three hundred of the allied cavalry to various towns in the
>
> neighborhood. Of the infantry ten thousand were taken prisoners in
>
> fair fight, but were not actually engaged in the battle: of those who
>
> were actually engaged only about three thousand perhaps escaped to the
>
> towns of the surrounding district; all the rest died nobly, to the
>
> number of seventy thousand, the Carthaginians being on this occasion,
>
> as on previous ones, mainly indebted for their victory to their
>
> superiority in cavalry: a lesson to posterity that in actual war it is
>
> better to have half the number of infantry, and the superiority in
>
> cavalry, than to engage your enemy with an equality in both. On the
>
> side of Hannibal there fell four thousand Celts, fifteen hundred
>
> Iberians and Libyans, and about two hundred horse.
>
> The ten thousand Romans who were captured had not, as I said, been
>
> engaged in the actual battle; and the reason was this. Lucius Aemilius
>
> left ten thousand infantry in his camp that, in case Hannibal should
>
> disregard the safety of his own camp, and take his whole army onto the
>
> field, they might seize the opportunity, while the battle was going
>
> on, of forcing their way in and capturing the enemy's baggage; or if,
>
> on the other hand, Hannibal should, in view of this contingency, leave
>
> a guard in his camp, the number of the enemy in the field might
>
> thereby be diminished. These men were captured in the field in the
>
> following circumstances. Hannibal, as a matter of fact, did leave a
>
> sufficient guard in his camp; and as soon as the battle began, the
>
> Romans, according to their instructions, assaulted and tried to take
>
> those thus left by Hannibal. At first they held their own: but just as
>
> they were beginning to waver, Hannibal, who was by this time gaining a
>
> victory all along the line, came to their relief, and routing the
>
> Romans, shut them up in their own camp; killed two thousand of them;
>
> and took all the rest prisoners. In like manner the Numidian horse
>
> brought in all those who had taken refuge in the various strongholds
>
> about the district, amounting to two thousand of the routed cavalry."
>
> - Polyibius, "The Roman Histories" III.117
>
> Today is the anniversary of the Battle of Cannae, the greatest defeat
>
> Rome ever suffered. The newly elected Roman Consuls, Gaius Terentius
>
> Varro and Lucius Aemilius Paullus, who had both run on a platform of
>
> taking the war to Hannibal, were anxious to begin their tenure with
>
> military achievement. Counter to the delaying tactics of the Dictator
>
> Fabius Maximus, Varro and Paulus immediately formed a large force to
>
> deal with the Carthaginians ravaging southern Italy. While ancient
>
> sources offer conflicting reports, it can be safe to assume that
>
> between the two, Consuls, they levied a force of nearly 80,000 men.
>
> Hannibal meanwhile, still attempting to subvert Roman authority in the
>
> allied areas of Italy, was waiting for the Roman with approximately
>
> 40,000 men; Gauls, Carthaginians and Numidian cavalry. Despite the
>
> popular conception that the elephants played a major role in the
>
> campaign, by this time, all of his elephants had died. Hannibal,
>
> despite his numerical inferiority had such an overwhelming strategic
>
> edge, that he was eager to meet the new Roman challenge.
>
> Theoretically, the Roman tactic of crushing Hannibal between two large
>
> armies should have spelled his doom, but Hannibal's brilliance allowed
>
> him to turn the tables once the engagement got under way.
>
> On August 2, 216 BC, in the Apulian plain, near Cannae and near the
>
> mouth of the Aufidus River, the 2 great armies came face to face. The
>
> Consul Varro was in command on the first day for the Romans, as the
>
> consuls alternated commands as they marched. Paullus, it has been
>
> suggested, was opposed to the engagement as it was taking shape, but
>
> regardless still brought his force to bear. The two armies positioned
>
> their lines and soon advanced against one another.
>
> The cavalry was to meet first on the flanks. Hasdrubal, commanding the
>
> Numidians, quickly overpowered the inferior Romans on the right flank
>
> and routed them. Pushing them into the river and scattering any
>
> opposing infantry in his path, Hasdrubal dominated the right flank and
>
> was quickly able to get in the rear of the enemy lines. While the much
>
> superior Numidians dealt quickly with their Roman counterparts, such
>
> was not the case with the infantry.
>
> As Hasdrubal was routing the Roman horse, the mass of infantry on both
>
> sides advanced towards each other in the middle of the field. The
>
> Iberian and Gallic Celts on the Carthaginian side, while fierce, were
>
> no match for Roman armament and close-quartered combat. Initially, the
>
> vast numerical advantage of the Legions pushed deep into the middle of
>
> the Carthaginians. While the Celts were pushed back, they didn't
>
> break, however. They held as firm as they could, while Hasdrubal's
>
> cavalry pushed around to the rear of the enemy and the Carthaginian
>
> infantry held firm on the immediate flanks. The Romans soon found that
>
> their success in the middle was pushing them into a potential
>
> disaster. As they victoriously fought farther into the center of
>
> Hannibal's lines, they were actually walking themselves right into
>
> being completely encircled.
>
> Just as the Romans were on the brink of crushing the enemy center, the
>
> Carthaginian flanks were brought to bear and the pressure pinned in
>
> the Roman advance. Hasdrubals' cavalry completed the circle by forcing
>
> the rear of the Roman line to turn back and form a square. All around,
>
> the massive bulk of the Roman army was forced into confined space.
>
> Hannibal brought his archers and slingers to bear and the result in
>
> the confines was devastating. Unable to continue the original break
>
> through against the Celts in the center of Hannibal's lines, the
>
> Romans were easy prey for the Carthaginians. Hannibal, with complete
>
> fury, encouraged his own men, under fear of the lash, if they weren't
>
> zealous enough in the slaughter.
>
> In the midst of the battle the Consul, Paullus, was wounded (either
>
> early or late depending on Livy or Polybius as the source). He
>
> valiantly attempted to maintain the Roman ranks, though vainly. While
>
> the commander of the day, Varro, fled the battle, Paullus stayed the
>
> course trying to save his army. In the end, it was a terrible
>
> slaughter and Paullus would be dead with the bulk of his men. Romans
>
> trying to escape were hamstrung as they ran, so the Carthaginians
>
> could concentrate on those who were still fighting, but allow time to
>
> return and kill the crippled later. In a fast and furious display of
>
> death, Hannibal ordered his men to stand down only a few short hours
>
> after they originally encircled the enemy.
>
> On a small strip of land where the Romans were bottled up, estimates
>
> as high as 60,000 corpses were piled one on top of another. Another
>
> 3,000 Romans were captured and more staggered into villages
>
> surrounding the battlefield. Hannibal, however, still trying to win
>
> the hearts of the Italian Roman allies, once again released the
>
> prisoners, much to the dismay of his commanders. In salute to the
>
> fallen Paullus, Hannibal also honored him with ceremonial rituals in
>
> recognition of his valiant actions.
>
> In the end, perhaps only as many as 15,000 Romans managed to escape
>
> with Varro. These survivors were later reconstituted as two units and
>
> assigned to Sicily for the remainder of the war as punishment for
>
> their loss. Along with Paullus, both of the Quaestors were killed, as
>
> well as 29 out of 48 military tribunes and an additional 80 other
>
> senators (at a time when the Roman Senate was no more than 300 men).
>
> The rings signifying membership in the Senate and from those of
>
> Equestrian (Knight class or the elite class after Patrician) status
>
> were collected from the dead in baskets and later thrown onto the
>
> floor of the Carthaginian Senate in disrespect. In contrast,
>
> Hannibal's losses numbered only between 6,000 and 7,000 men, of whom,
>
> these were mostly his Celtic recruits. Once again Hannibal proved
>
> brilliant in battlefield strategy, using the enemy's tactics against
>
> itself and routing an army twice the size of his own. In less than a
>
> year since the disaster at Trasimenus, the Roman's greatest loss was
>
> in history put the state into a panic. There was nothing keeping
>
> Hannibal from sacking Rome itself at this point, other than Hannibal.
>
> His generals again urged him to not waste any more effort and go for
>
> the final kill, but Hannibal was reluctant. Still believing he
>
> couldn't take Rome itself, he preferred his strategy of pursuing
>
> revolt among the Roman allies.
>
> Despite this tremendous loss, the following defection of many allied
>
> cities, and the declaration of war by Philip of Macedon that was soon
>
> to come, the Romans showed a resiliency that defined them as people.
>
> According to Livy, "No other nation in the world could have suffered
>
> so tremendous a series of disasters and not been overwhelmed." The
>
> truth of that nature was self evident. While some in the Senate, such
>
> as Lucius Caecilius Metellus were ready to abandon the Republic as a
>
> lost cause, others like Scipio propped up the flagging Roman spirit
>
> with encouragement and undying oaths of loyalty to Rome.
>
> Shortly after Cannae, the Romans rallied back, declaring full
>
> mobilization. Another dictator, M. Junius Pera, was elected to
>
> stabilize the Republic. New legions were raised with conscripts from
>
> previous untouched citizen classes. As the land owning population was
>
> heavily diminished by losses to Hannibal, the Romans took advantage of
>
> the masses. Those in debt were released from their obligations,
>
> non-land owners were recruited and even slaves were freed to join the
>
> legions. In so doing, the Romans also refused to pay ransoms to
>
> Hannibal for any captured legionaries who still remained. Hannibal, it
>
> was suggested, lost his spirit, understanding that Rome would rather
>
> sacrifice its own than surrender anything to him. While fortune would
>
> still be with Hannibal for some time, the war of attrition would only
>
> benefit Rome.
>
> Valete bene!
>
> Cato
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85092 From: Belle Morte Statia Date: 2011-08-02
Subject: Special Announcement: North American Conventus Nov. 24th-27th (Be Th
Sta. Cornelia Aeternia Omnibus in foro S.P.D.


I do know this has been changed quite a bit, but life has continued to get
in the way... But I have done every effort to make this North American
Conventus truly happen..


The North American Conventus will be taking place Novemember 24-27th in
Phoenix AZ.. We are currently looking at the El Zaribah Shrine, Phoenix
Arizona, (a Shriner's Hall) as the Official Location of the Conventus, we
are looking at Hotels that are close by so the commute will not be
difficult.

There will be a 25$ Registration Fee these funds will be applied to the
rental of the Shriners Hall.

Everyone worldwide is cordially invited :-)


The following activities will be taking place during the Conventus:

Thanksgiving Dinner

A Latinitas Presentation by Augur & Magister C. Tullius Valerianus

"Cooking With Pulchra" presented by Plebian Aedile C. Valeria Pulchra

Q& A regarding the Cultus Deorum by Q. Caecilius Metellus Postumianus Pius

Presentation about NR's Finances by Senator and CFO L. Cornelius Sulla


Special Addendum: If anyone who plans on attending the Conventus wishes to
present a presentation of something, please let me know in advance. So that
it may be added to the Itinerary.

Special Addendum: Although its strongly encouraged to come attired in Roman
garb, it's not mandatory.....

There will be also other goodies...


So with that in mind, I ask the support of our most finest citizens to aid
in this endeavor: Our Consuls, Praetors, Our College of Pontiffs, our most
beloved Vestal, fellow Magistrates, and the members of the Senate to attend
this Conventus.


There will be commaderie and goodies galore, so come attend and be Merry!

Vale quam Optime,
Statia Cornelia Aeternia (Curulis Aedilis Maior)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85093 From: Tragedienne Date: 2011-08-02
Subject: Re: Special Announcement: North American Conventus Nov. 24th-27th (B
Salve, Salvete Omnes:


Big huge Mea Culpa.. I realized this was accidentally sent on a Dies Ater.

Please disregard this, and I will repost this upon the morn.


Vale et Valete Bene,
Statia Cornelia Aeternia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85094 From: Cato Date: 2011-08-03
Subject: a.d. III Non. sext.
Cato omnibus in foro SPD

Hodiernus dies est ante diem III Nonas Sextiles; haec dies comitialis est.

"For when the sun was suddenly obscured and darkness reigned, and the
Athenians were overwhelmed with the greatest terror. Pericles, who was
then supreme among his countrymen in influence, eloquence, and wisdom,
is said to have communicated to his fellow-citizens the information he
had received from Anaxagoras, whose pupil he had been -- that this
phenomenon occurs at fixed periods and by inevitable law, whenever the
moon passes entirely beneath the orb of the sun." - Cicero, De Rerum
Naturae; on this day in 431 BC an eclipse occurred.

"And Leto was joined in love with Zeus who holds the aigis, and bare
Apollon and Artemis Iokheaira (delighting in arrows), children lovely
above all the sons of Heaven." - Hesiod, Theogony 918

"Blessed Leto, you bare glorious children, the lord Apollon and
Artemis Iokheaira (who delights in arrows); her in Ortygia, and him in
rocky Delos." - Homeric Hymn 3 to Delian Apollo

"Neat-ankled Leto bare children [Apollon & Artemis] supreme among the
immortals both in thought and in deed." - Homeric Hymn 27 to Artemis
14

"Hail. O heaven-built isle, most lovely scion of the children of
bright-haired Leto, O daughter of the sea, thou unmoved marvel of the
spacious earth, by mortal men called Delos, but by the blessed gods of
Olympos known as the far-seen star (astra) of the dark-blue sea ...
For aforetime, that isle was tossed on the waves by all manner of
whirling winds; but, when Leto, the daughter of Koios, in the frenzy
of her imminent pangs of travail, set foot on her, then it was that
four lofty pillars rose from the roots of earth, and on their capitals
held up the rock with their adamantine bases. There it was that she
gave birth to, and beheld, her blessed offspring [Apollon and
Artemis]." - Pindar, Processional Song on Delos

"Artemis became a practised huntress [after her birth] and remained a
virgin." - Apollodorus, The Library 1.21

"[Artemis] sitting on her father's knees - still a little maid - she
spake these words to her sire [Zeus]: `Give me to keep my maidenhood,
Father, forever ... And her father smiled and bowed assent." -
Callimachus, Hymn 3 to Artemis

"And both Athene and Artemis ... made the same choice of maidenhood as
had Kore and were reared together with her." - Diodorus Siculus,
Library of History 5.2.3

In Greece today was the Festival of Artemis, known to the Romans as
Diana. Artemis is the virgin daughter of Zeus and Leto (Latona), by
the common account born a twin-sister of Apollo, and just before him,
at Delos. The Ortygia named in another tradition as her birthplace was
interpreted to mean Delos, though several other places where the
worship of Artemis had long prevailed put forward pretensions to that
name and its mythological renown, especially the well-known island of
Ortygia off Syracuse. She, as well as her mother, was worshipped
jointly with her brother at Delos, Delphi, and all the most venerable
spots where Apollo was honoured. She is armed, as he is, with bow and
arrows, which, like him, and often together with him, she wields
against monsters and giants; hence the pæan was chanted to her as well
as to him. Like those of Apollo, the shafts of Artemis were regarded
as the cause of sudden death, especially to maidens and wives. But she
was also a beneficent and helpful deity. As Apollo is the luminous god
of day, she with her torch is a goddess of light by night, and in
course of time becomes identified with all possible goddesses of moon
and night.

Her proper domain is that of nature, with its hills and valleys,
woods, meadows, rivers, and fountains; there, amid her nymphs, herself
the fairest and tallest, she is a mighty huntress, sometimes chasing
wild animals, sometimes dancing, playing, or bathing with her
companions. Her favourite haunt was thought to be the mountains and
forests of Arcadia, where, in many spots, she had sanctuaries,
consecrated hunting-grounds, and sacred animals. To her, as goddess of
the forest and the chase, all beasts of the woods and fields --in
fact, all game -- were dear and sacred; but her favourite animal was
held all over Greece to be the hind. From this sacred animal and the
hunting of it, the month which the other Greeks called Artemision or
Artemisios (March-April) was named by the Athenians Elaphebolion, and
her festival as goddess of game and hunting, at which deer or cakes in
the shape of deer were offered up, Elaphebolia. As goddess of the
chase, she had also some influence in war, and the Spartans before
battle sought her favour by the gift of a she-goat. Miltiades, too,
before the battle of Marathon, had vowed to her as many goats as there
should be enemies fallen on the field; but the number proving so great
that the vow could not be kept, five hundred goats were sacrificed at
each anniversary of the victory in the month of Boedromion. Again, she
was much worshipped as the goddess of the moon. At Amarynthus in
Euboea the whole island kept holiday to her with processions and
prize-fights. At Munychia in Attica, at full moon in the month of
Munychion (April-May), large round loaves or cakes, decked all around
with lights as a symbol of her own luminary, were borne in procession
and presented to her; and at the same time was solemnized the festival
of the victory of Salamis in Cyprus, because on that occasion the
goddess had shone in her full glory on the Greeks. An ancient shrine
of the Moon-goddess at Brauron in Attica was held in such veneration
that the Brauronia, originally a merely local festival, was afterwards
made a public ceremony, to which Athens itself sent deputies every
five years, and a precinct was dedicated to "Artemis of Brauron" on
the Acropolis itself. At this feast the girls between five and ten
years of age, clad in saffron-coloured garments, were conducted by
their mothers in procession to the goddess and commended to her care;
for Artemis is also a protectress of youth, especially those of her
own sex. As such she patronized a nurses' festival at Sparta in a
temple outside the town, to which little boys were brought by their
nurses; while the Ionians at their Apaturia presented her with the
hair of boys. Almost everywhere young girls revered the virgin goddess
as the guardian of their maiden years, and before marriage they
offered up to her a lock of their hair, their girdle, and their maiden
garment. She was also worshipped in many parts as the goddess of good
repute, especially in youths and maidens, and was regarded as an enemy
of all disorderly doings.

With her attributes as the goddess of the moon, and as the promoter of
healthy development, especially in the female frame, is connected the
notion of her assisting in childbirth. In early times human
sacrifices had been offered to Artemis. A relic of this was the yearly
custom observed at Sparta of flogging the boys till they bled at the
altar of a deity not unknown elsewhere and named Artemis Orthia (the
upright), probably from her stiff posture in the antiquated wooden
image. At Sparta, as in other places, the ancient image was looked
upon as the same which Iphigenia and Orestes brought away from Tauris
(the Crimea) -- viz., that of the Tanric Artemis, a Scythian deity who
was identified with Artemis because of the human sacrifices common in
her worship. The Artemis of Ephesus, too, so greatly honoured by all
the Ionians of Asia (Acts, xix. 28), is no Greek divinity, but
Asiatic.

Valete bene!

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85095 From: Sabinus Date: 2011-08-03
Subject: EDICTUM CENSORIS IULII SABINI DE OFFICIO CENSORIS
EDICTUM CENSORIS IULII SABINI DE OFFICIO CENSORIS

1. Gaius Petronius Dexter and Gaius Marcius Crispus are appointed as senior scribae of my cohors.

2. Gaius Marcius Crispus has attributions in Officium approbationum et communicationis and Officium civium novorum. Primary language: English.

3. Gaius Petronius Dexter has attributions in Officium Civium Novorum. Primary languages: French and Latin. Secondary language: English.

4. Gaius Petronius Dexter is appointed as Consiliarius onomasticus.

5. Attributions for functions are described in my first edict about the censorial office (message 82761 - NR main list).

6. No oath shall be required

7. For dedication and good work, scriba censoris, Lucia Iulia Aquila is advanced to senior scriba censoris position.

8. For dedication, good and continuous work, caput officii censorii, senior scriba censoris and consiliaria onomiatica, Aula Tullia Scholastica, receive public thanks. Her commitments are paramount and strongly appreciated.

8. This edict takes effect immediately.

Given under my hand this 3th day of August 2764 a.U.c. in the consulship of P. Ullerius and C. Equitius coss.

T. Iulius Sabinus
Censor
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85096 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2011-08-03
Subject: Favorable Auspices for the North American Conventus 2011 - Aves Admi
Gaius Tullius Valerianus Germanicus Augur et Tribunus Plebis omnibus in his
foris S.P.D.

*Salvete, omnes!* On this day auspices were taken for the third Nova
Roman North American Conventus and found to be very favorable! *Aves
admittunt! *The favorable results of the auspices were announced to Statia
Cornelia Valeriana Iuliana Aeternia Aedilis Curulis earlier today. The
Conventus has the approval of our gods; may we continue to enjoy their
favor!

On behalf of the College of Augurs, I formally invite all Romans to
plan to attend the North American Conventus 2011, to be held from a.d. VIII
Kal. Dec. to a.d. V Kal. Dec. (November 24th to 27th) in Phoenix, Arizona,
in Provincia American Austroccidentalis. I especially hope to see as many as
possible of our magistrates and priests attending and giving their support
to this important meeting of Nova Romans! I shall be on hand to represent
both the College of Augurs and the Plebs in my capacity as Tribune!

Details on registration and events will soon be forthcoming from our
Curule Aedile Aeternia, but as many Romans as can possibly come should save
the dates now for November!

*Valete omnes!*
*
*
Data Phoenice a.d. III Nonas Sextiles, anno A.U.C. MMDCCLXIV (P. Ullerio C.
Equitio coss.)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85097 From: Belle Morte Statia Date: 2011-08-03
Subject: Re: Favorable Auspices for the North American Conventus 2011 - Aves
Sta. Cornelia Valeriana Juliana Aeternia C. Tullio Valeriano Germanico
Auguri et Omnibusque S.P.D.


Huzzah! Errr Optime! Fortuna has smiled upon on my most labored project of
this year.

Gratias tibi ago care amice! Everyone come join us and be merry!!!

Vale bene,
Sta. Cornelia Aeternia

*"Fortes fortuna iuvat"*


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85098 From: Cato Date: 2011-08-04
Subject: prid. Non. Sext.
Cato omnibus in foro SPD

Hodiernus dies est pridie Nonas Sextiles; haec dies comitialis est.

"Remember, Roman, that it is for thee to rule the nations. This shall
be thy task, to impose the ways of peace, to spare the vanquished, and
to tame the proud by war." - Polybius, "The Roman Histories" 6.11-18

"Though all the world exclaim against me, I will say what I think:
that single little book of the Twelve Tables, if anyone look to the
fountains and sources of laws, seems to me, assuredly, to surpass the
libraries of all the philosophers, both in weight of authority, and in
plenitude of utility." - Cicero, de Oratore I.44

"The Greek cities are thought to have flourished mainly on account of
the felicitous choice made by their founders, in regard to the beauty
and strength of their sites, their proximity to some haven, and the
fineness of the country. But the Roman prudence was more particularly
employed on matters which have received but little attention from the
Greeks---such as paving their roads, constructing aqueducts, and
sewers. In fact they have paved the roads, cut through hills, and
filled up valleys, so that the merchandise may be conveyed by carriage
from the ports. The sewers, arched over with hewn stones, are large
enough in parts for actual hay wagons to pass through, while so
plentiful is the supply of water from the aqueducts, that rivers may
be said to flow through the city and the sewers, and almost every
house is furnished with water pipes and copious fountains.

We may remark that the ancients [of Republican times] bestowed little
attention upon the beautifying of Rome. But their successors, and
especially those of our own day, have at the same time embellished the
city with numerous and splendid objects. Pompey, the Divine Caesar
[i.e. Julius Caesar], and Augustus, with his children, friends, wife,
and sister have surpassed all others in their zeal and munificence in
these decorations. The greater number of these may be seen in the
Campus Martius which to the beauties of nature adds those of art. The
size of the plain is remarkable, allowing chariot races and the
equestrian sports without hindrance, and multitudes [here] exercise
themselves with ball games, in the Circus, and on the wrestling
grounds. The structures that surround [the Campus], the greensward
covered with herbage all the year around, the summit of the hills
beyond the Tiber, extending from its banks with panoramic effect,
present a spectacle which the eye abandons with regret.

Near to this plain is another surrounded with columns, sacred groves,
three theaters, an amphitheater, and superb temples, each close to the
other, and so splendid that it would seem idle to describe the rest of
the city after it. For this cause the Romans esteeming it the most
sacred place, have erected funeral monuments there to the illustrious
persons of either sex. The most remarkable of these is that called the
"Mausoleum" [the tomb of Augustus] which consists of a mound of earth
raised upon a high foundation of white marble, situated near the
river, and covered on the top with evergreen shrubs. Upon the summit
is a bronze statue of Augustus Caesar, and beneath the mound are the
funeral urns of himself, his relatives, and his friends. Behind is a
large grove containing charming promenades. In the center of the plain
[the Campus Martius] is the spot where this prince was reduced to
ashes. It is surrounded by a double enclosure, one of marble, the
other of iron, and planted within with poplars. If thence you proceed
to visit the ancient Forum, which is equally filled with basilicas,
porticoes, and temples, you will there behold the Capitol, the
Palatine, and the noble works that adorn them, and the piazza of
Livia, each successive work causing you speedily to forget that which
you have seen before. Such then is Rome!

In Rome there is continual need of wood and stone for ceaseless
building caused by the frequent falling down of houses, and on account
of conflagrations and of sales which seem never to cease. These sales
are a kind of voluntary falling-down of houses, each owner knocking
down and rebuilding according to his individual taste. For these
purposes the numerous quarries, forests, and rivers in the region
which convey the materials, offer wonderful facilities." - Strabo

Valete bene!

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85099 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2011-08-04
Subject: Classic Poetry, Prose, Proems, Literature Excerpts
Salvete quiritibus, salutem plurimam dicit

From Cicero De Senectute:

XXIII 83/84

"Et si quis deus mihi largiatur, ut ex hac aetate repuerascam et in cunis vagiam, valde recusem, nec vero velim quasi decurso spatio ad carceres a calce revocari. Quid habet enim vita commodi? Quid non potius laboris? Sed habeat sane, habet certe tamen aut satietatem aut modum. Non lubet enim mihi deplorare vitam, quod multi, et ei docti, saepe fecerunt, neque me vixisse paenitet, quoniam ita vixi, ut non frustra me natum existimem, ut ex vita ita discedo tamquam ex hospitio, non tamquam e domo. Commorandi enim natura devorsorium nobis, non habitandi dedit. O praeclarum diem, cum in illud divinum animorum concilium coetumque proficiscar cumque ex hac turba et conluvione discedam!"

"Nay, if some god should grant me to renew my childhood from my present age and once more to be crying in my cradle, I would firmly refuse; nor should I in truth be willing, after having, as it were, run the full course, to be recalled from the winning-crease to the barriers. For what blessing has life to offer? Should we not rather say, what labour? But granting that it has, at any rate it has after all a limit either to enjoyment or to existence. I don't wish to depreciate life, as many men and good philosophers have often done; nor do I regret having lived, for I have done so in a way that lets me think that I was not born in vain. But I quit life as I would an inn, not as I would a home. For nature has given us a place of entertainment, not of residence. Oh, glorious day when I shall set out to join that heavenly conclave and company of souls, and depart from the turmoil and impurities of this world!"

Optime valete,

Julia
Nashvillae Scribebat
a.d. Prid. Nonas Sextiles MMDCCLXIV
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85100 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2011-08-04
Subject: family wikis for sacra privata et al.
Gaius Tullius Valerianus Germanicus omnibus in his foris S.P.D.

*Salvete omnes! *I wanted to share with you all a project on
which my *familia
*is working: a wiki for our family! I found out that they be designed for
free, and are fairly easy to build (I am not a "computer person," so if I
can do it, anyone can!).

The original inspiration for this was that my wife and I were revising
our family's calendar of holidays and observances. For those of you less
familiar with the *cultus deorum, *every family has its own *sacra
privata *that
are independent of the *sacra publica *of the Nova Roman Republic. Until
recently, I always kept things like our calendar and patron deities and such
on paper, which was convenient, but difficult to update and revise. But I
decided to try to revise it in an electronic format, and the results have
been *awesome! *We now have our *fasti *on a wiki, with links to separate
pages for the festivals and observances most important to our family.

You can see the wiki for the Familia Tulllia Valeriana at:
http://familia-tullia-valeriana.wikispaces.com/ Please keep in mind that it
*is *a work in progress - not all of the pages within the wiki are more than
a couple of words, yet. But you can see the potential! I think it would be
great if eventually every Nova Roman *familia *had its own website (many
years ago, most of the *gentes *had their own websites, but most of these
are as defunct as our old *gens *system).

I would appreciate any ideas or feedback from any Nova Romans! These may be
our family's private pages, but we are excited enough about the concept and
its possibilities that we decided to share them with the Nova Roman public!

*Valete omnes! *


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85101 From: jeffery craft Date: 2011-08-04
Subject: bagpipes
i finally got my bagpipes and wanted you all to see me play, this has nothing to do with ancient rome (that i know of)
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjaoBXFCzW0
 
here is me playing

"Consider your origin, you were not born to live like brutes, but to follow virtue and knowledge.”
 
                                                                                                                               Dante Alighieri 
 
Ti. Aurelius Trio

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85102 From: Belle Morte Statia Date: 2011-08-04
Subject: Reposted Special Announcement: North American Conventus Nov. 24th-27
Sta. Cornelia Aeternia Omnibus in foro S.P.D.

I remembered this needed to be reposted due the error of before.


I do know this has been changed quite a bit, but life has continued to get
in the way... But I have done every effort to make this North American
Conventus truly happen..


The North American Conventus will be taking place Novemember 24-27th in
Phoenix AZ.. We are currently looking at the El Zaribah Shrine, Phoenix
Arizona, (a Shriner's Hall) as the Official Location of the Conventus, we
are looking at Hotels that are close by so the commute will not be
difficult.

There will be a 25$ Registration Fee these funds will be applied to the
rental of the Shriners Hall.

Everyone worldwide is cordially invited :-)


The following activities will be taking place during the Conventus:

Thanksgiving Dinner

A Latinitas Presentation by Augur & Magister C. Tullius Valerianus

"Cooking With Pulchra" presented by Plebian Aedile C. Valeria Pulchra

Q& A regarding the Cultus Deorum by Q. Caecilius Metellus Postumianus Pius

Presentation about NR's Finances by Senator and CFO L. Cornelius Sulla


Special Addendum: If anyone who plans on attending the Conventus wishes to
present a presentation of something, please let me know in advance. So that
it may be added to the Itinerary.

Special Addendum: Although its strongly encouraged to come attired in Roman
garb, it's not mandatory.....

There will be also other goodies...


So with that in mind, I ask the support of our most finest citizens to aid
in this endeavor: Our Consuls, Praetors, Our College of Pontiffs, our most
beloved Vestal, fellow Magistrates, and the members of the Senate to attend
this Conventus.


There will be commaderie and goodies galore, so come attend and be Merry!

Vale quam Optime,
Statia Cornelia Aeternia (Curulis Aedilis Maior)




--
*"Fortes fortuna iuvat"*


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85103 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2011-08-04
Subject: Re: bagpipes
Ave Trio!

Bene!

Pretty good for playing just a week but I suspect you have some experience in wind instruments, but still it good!

Optime vale,

Julia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, jeffery craft <warbuff_4@...> wrote:
>
> i finally got my bagpipes and wanted you all to see me play, this has nothing to do with ancient rome (that i know of)
>  
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjaoBXFCzW0
>  
> here is me playing
>
> "Consider your origin, you were not born to live like brutes, but to follow virtue and knowledge.”
>  
>                                                                                                                                Dante Alighieri 
>  
> Ti. Aurelius Trio
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85104 From: Q Caecilius Metellus Date: 2011-08-05
Subject: Nundinal Calendar XIX: Non Sex through Id Sex
Q Caecilius Metellus pontifex Quiritibus salutem plurimam dicit.

Saluete, Quirites.

After a bit of a hiatus, what follows is the nundinal calendar for
the nineteenth full nundinum of the current sacral year, beginning 05
August 2011 and continuing through 13 August 2011. Any questions had
will be gladly answered.

Our nineteenth nundinum of the year consists of the following nine days:

- 05 Aug 2011 (Non. Sex.): the day is fastus
- 06 Aug 2011 (a.d. VIII Id. Sex.): fastus, and a dies ater.
- 07 Aug 2011 (a.d. VII Id. Sex.): the day is comitialis
- 08 Aug 2011 (a.d. VI Id. Sex): the day is comitialis
- 09 Aug 2011 (a.d. V Id. Sex.): the day is comitialis
- 10 Aug 2011 (a.d. IV Id. Sex.): the day is comitialis
- 11 Aug 2011 (a.d. III Id. Sex.): the day is comitialis
- 12 Aug 2011 (pr. Id. Sex.): the day is comitialis
- 13 Aug 2011 (Id. Sex.): the day is nefastus publicus

This nundinum, as a number of the previous nundina, show no great
public sacra in the calendars of Antiquity. The upcoming nundina,
however, contain a few, among them the Portunalia, Volcanalia, and
Volturnalia, each to deities represented in the flamonia of Antiquity.

Romani pietatis exemplum sint.

pridie Nonas Sextiles
Phoenice, Arizonae scr.
P Ullerio C Equitio coss.


--
Software suppliers are trying to make their software packages more
"user-friendly". ... Their best approach, so far, has been to take all
the old brochures, and stamp the words, "user-friendly" on the cover.
-- Bill Gates, Microsoft, Inc.
[Pot. Kettle. Black.]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85106 From: jeffery craft Date: 2011-08-05
Subject: Re: bagpipes
salve,
before i played bagpipes, i had no prior experience with wind instruments.
 its very difficult
vale
"Consider your origin, you were not born to live like brutes, but to follow virtue and knowledge.”
 
                                                                                                                               Dante Alighieri 
 
Ti. Aurelius Trio

From: luciaiuliaaquila <luciaiuliaaquila@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 4, 2011 10:03 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: bagpipes


 
Ave Trio!

Bene!

Pretty good for playing just a week but I suspect you have some experience in wind instruments, but still it good!

Optime vale,

Julia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, jeffery craft <warbuff_4@...> wrote:
>
> i finally got my bagpipes and wanted you all to see me play, this has nothing to do with ancient rome (that i know of)
>  
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjaoBXFCzW0
>  
> here is me playing
>
> "Consider your origin, you were not born to live like brutes, but to follow virtue and knowledge.”
>  
>                                                                                                                                Dante Alighieri 
>  
> Ti. Aurelius Trio
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85107 From: James V Hooper Date: 2011-08-05
Subject: Re: bagpipes
Salve,
Some claimthat the bagpipes got their origin from the military trumpets of the
Roman legions... not sure if true. Good show.
Vale,
C. Pompeius Marcellus


On Fri, 05 Aug 2011 02:03:50 -0000
"luciaiuliaaquila" <luciaiuliaaquila@...> wrote:
> Ave Trio!
>
> Bene!
>
> Pretty good for playing just a week but I suspect you have some experience
>in wind instruments, but still it good!
>
> Optime vale,
>
> Julia
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, jeffery craft <warbuff_4@...> wrote:
>>
>> i finally got my bagpipes and wanted you all to see me play, this has
>>nothing to do with ancient rome (that i know of)
>>  
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjaoBXFCzW0
>>  
>> here is me playing
>>
>> "Consider your origin, you were not born to live like brutes, but to follow
>>virtue and knowledge.�
>>  
>>                                                                                                                                Dante Alighieri 
>>  
>> Ti. Aurelius Trio
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85108 From: jeffery craft Date: 2011-08-05
Subject: Re: bagpipes
salve,
anything is possible, thank you.
vale

"Consider your origin, you were not born to live like brutes, but to follow virtue and knowledge.”
 
                                                                                                                               Dante Alighieri 
 
Ti. Aurelius Trio

From: James V Hooper <warrior44_us@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, August 5, 2011 10:05 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: bagpipes


 
Salve,
Some claimthat the bagpipes got their origin from the military trumpets of the
Roman legions... not sure if true. Good show.
Vale,
C. Pompeius Marcellus

On Fri, 05 Aug 2011 02:03:50 -0000
"luciaiuliaaquila" <luciaiuliaaquila@...> wrote:
> Ave Trio!
>
> Bene!
>
> Pretty good for playing just a week but I suspect you have some experience
>in wind instruments, but still it good!
>
> Optime vale,
>
> Julia
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, jeffery craft <warbuff_4@...> wrote:
>>
>> i finally got my bagpipes and wanted you all to see me play, this has
>>nothing to do with ancient rome (that i know of)
>>  
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjaoBXFCzW0
>>  
>> here is me playing
>>
>> "Consider your origin, you were not born to live like brutes, but to follow
>>virtue and knowledge.�
>>  
>>                                                                                                                                Dante Alighieri 
>>  
>> Ti. Aurelius Trio
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85109 From: C.Maria Caeca Date: 2011-08-05
Subject: Re: bagpipes
Salvete!

I have always loved the music of the pipes! There is something evocative about them that draws me in, every time. Great that you are learning how to invoke their magic, (smile)
Valete!
C. Maria Caeca
----- Original Message -----
From: James V Hooper
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 10:05 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: bagpipes



Salve,
Some claimthat the bagpipes got their origin from the military trumpets of the
Roman legions... not sure if true. Good show.
Vale,
C. Pompeius Marcellus

On Fri, 05 Aug 2011 02:03:50 -0000
"luciaiuliaaquila" <luciaiuliaaquila@...> wrote:
> Ave Trio!
>
> Bene!
>
> Pretty good for playing just a week but I suspect you have some experience
>in wind instruments, but still it good!
>
> Optime vale,
>
> Julia
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, jeffery craft <warbuff_4@...> wrote:
>>
>> i finally got my bagpipes and wanted you all to see me play, this has
>>nothing to do with ancient rome (that i know of)
>> Â
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjaoBXFCzW0
>> Â
>> here is me playing
>>
>> "Consider your origin, you were not born to live like brutes, but to follow
>>virtue and knowledge.�
>> Â
>>                                                                                                                                Dante AlighieriÂ
>> Â
>> Ti. Aurelius Trio
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85110 From: jeffery craft Date: 2011-08-05
Subject: Re: bagpipes
salvete,
thank you, i just got really bored playing the norm of instruments and decided to play the odd one
 vale
"Consider your origin, you were not born to live like brutes, but to follow virtue and knowledge.”
 
                                                                                                                               Dante Alighieri 
 
Ti. Aurelius Trio

From: C.Maria Caeca <c.mariacaeca@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, August 5, 2011 10:26 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: bagpipes


 
Salvete!

I have always loved the music of the pipes! There is something evocative about them that draws me in, every time. Great that you are learning how to invoke their magic, (smile)
Valete!
C. Maria Caeca
----- Original Message -----
From: James V Hooper
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 10:05 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: bagpipes

Salve,
Some claimthat the bagpipes got their origin from the military trumpets of the
Roman legions... not sure if true. Good show.
Vale,
C. Pompeius Marcellus

On Fri, 05 Aug 2011 02:03:50 -0000
"luciaiuliaaquila" <luciaiuliaaquila@...> wrote:
> Ave Trio!
>
> Bene!
>
> Pretty good for playing just a week but I suspect you have some experience
>in wind instruments, but still it good!
>
> Optime vale,
>
> Julia
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, jeffery craft <warbuff_4@...> wrote:
>>
>> i finally got my bagpipes and wanted you all to see me play, this has
>>nothing to do with ancient rome (that i know of)
>> Â
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjaoBXFCzW0
>> Â
>> here is me playing
>>
>> "Consider your origin, you were not born to live like brutes, but to follow
>>virtue and knowledge.�
>> Â
>>                                                                                                                                Dante AlighieriÂ
>> Â
>> Ti. Aurelius Trio
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85111 From: Michel Lavau Date: 2011-08-05
Subject: Re: NONAE SEXTILIIS
M. Furius Camillus Catoni S.P.D.

Cave amice : "Hodie NONIS SEXTILIBUS..."

Cura ut valeas.


--- On Fri, 8/5/11, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:

From: Cato <catoinnyc@...>
Subject: [Nova-Roma] NONAE SEXTILIIS
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, August 5, 2011, 4:14 PM







 









Cato omnibus in foro SPD



Hodiernus dies est Nonae Sextiliis; hic dies fastus est.



"Asklepios, the most famous god - ie Paian! By him were fathered ...

children of Epione, along with Hygieia (Health), all-glorious,

undefiled ... Greetings I give you [Asklepios]: graciously visit our

widespaced city - ie Paian! - and grant that we look on the sun's

light in joy, approved with the help of Hygieia, all-glorious,

undefiled: ie Paian!" - Greek Lyric V Anonymous, Fragments 939

(Inscription from Erythrai)



"Bright-eyed mother, highest queen of Apollon's golden throne,

desirable, gently-laughing Hygeia." - Greek Lyric V Licymnius Frag 769

(from Sextus Empiricus, "Against the Ethicists"")



"Hygeia, most revered of the blessed ones among mortals, may I dwell

with you for what is left of my life, and may you graciously keep

company with me: for any joy in wealth or in children or in a king's

godlike rule over men or in the desires which we hunt with the hidden

nets of Aphrodite, any other delight or respite from toils that has

been revealed by the gods to men, with you, blessed Hygeia, it

flourishes and shines in the converse of the Kharites; and without you

no man is happy." - Greek Lyric V Ariphron, Frag 813 (from Athenaeus,

Scholars at Dinner)



"He [the corrupt physician] made a pretence of dispending the

celebrated potion called by more learned people `The Health Offering'

(Salus Sacra), a drug necessary for easing gastric pains and

dissolving bile; but in its place he substituted another draught, `The

Death Offering' (Proserpina Sacra)." - Apuleius, The Golden Ass 10.25



This day was dedicated to Salus, the abstract deification of Health

and Wealth. Salus was a Roman goddess who may originally have been a

fertility and agricultural goddess but who was known as a

personification of health and preservation. Salus is associated with

the Greek goddess Hygeia. She was called Salus Publica Populi Romani

and was often shown on coins feeding a snake. Early coins show Hygeia

with ears of ceral crops. From the name salus comes our word

salubrious, meaning good health. A temple to Salus was consecrated on

the Quirinal.



Valete bene!



Cato






















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85112 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2011-08-05
Subject: Re: bagpipes
Salvete,
no, bagpipes originate from the roman tibia and the greek aulos. The bag was
added in the Middle Ages, and makes it easier to obtain a continuous osund
without circular breathing.
Valete,
Livia

> Salve,
> Some claimthat the bagpipes got their origin from the military trumpets of
> the
> Roman legions... not sure if true. Good show.
> Vale,
> C. Pompeius Marcellus
>
>
> On Fri, 05 Aug 2011 02:03:50 -0000
> "luciaiuliaaquila" <luciaiuliaaquila@...> wrote:
>> Ave Trio!
>>
>> Bene!
>>
>> Pretty good for playing just a week but I suspect you have some
>> experience
>>in wind instruments, but still it good!
>>
>> Optime vale,
>>
>> Julia
>>
>> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, jeffery craft <warbuff_4@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> i finally got my bagpipes and wanted you all to see me play, this has
>>>nothing to do with ancient rome (that i know of)
>>> Â
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjaoBXFCzW0
>>> Â
>>> here is me playing
>>>
>>> "Consider your origin, you were not born to live like brutes, but to
>>> follow
>>>virtue and knowledge.â??
>>> Â
>>> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â
>>> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â
>>> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â
>>>                    Dante AlighieriÂ
>>> Â
>>> Ti. Aurelius Trio
>>>
>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85114 From: Cato Date: 2011-08-05
Subject: NONIS SEXTILIBUS
Cato omnibus in foro SPD

Hodiernus dies est Nonis Sextilibus; hic dies fastus est.

"Asklepios, the most famous god - ie Paian! By him were fathered ...
children of Epione, along with Hygieia (Health), all-glorious,
undefiled ... Greetings I give you [Asklepios]: graciously visit our
widespaced city - ie Paian! - and grant that we look on the sun's
light in joy, approved with the help of Hygieia, all-glorious,
undefiled: ie Paian!" - Greek Lyric V Anonymous, Fragments 939
(Inscription from Erythrai)

"Bright-eyed mother, highest queen of Apollon's golden throne,
desirable, gently-laughing Hygeia." - Greek Lyric V Licymnius Frag 769
(from Sextus Empiricus, "Against the Ethicists"")

"Hygeia, most revered of the blessed ones among mortals, may I dwell
with you for what is left of my life, and may you graciously keep
company with me: for any joy in wealth or in children or in a king's
godlike rule over men or in the desires which we hunt with the hidden
nets of Aphrodite, any other delight or respite from toils that has
been revealed by the gods to men, with you, blessed Hygeia, it
flourishes and shines in the converse of the Kharites; and without you
no man is happy." - Greek Lyric V Ariphron, Frag 813 (from Athenaeus,
Scholars at Dinner)

"He [the corrupt physician] made a pretence of dispending the
celebrated potion called by more learned people `The Health Offering'
(Salus Sacra), a drug necessary for easing gastric pains and
dissolving bile; but in its place he substituted another draught, `The
Death Offering' (Proserpina Sacra)." - Apuleius, The Golden Ass 10.25

This day was dedicated to Salus, the abstract deification of Health
and Wealth. Salus was a Roman goddess who may originally have been a
fertility and agricultural goddess but who was known as a
personification of health and preservation. Salus is associated with
the Greek goddess Hygeia. She was called Salus Publica Populi Romani
and was often shown on coins feeding a snake. Early coins show Hygeia
with ears of ceral crops. From the name salus comes our word
salubrious, meaning good health. A temple to Salus was consecrated on
the Quirinal.

Valete bene!

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85115 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2011-08-05
Subject: Senate Session Report for May {LATE}
Tribunus Plebis C. Tullius Valerianus Germanicus Quiritibus SPD,****

** **

At the request of several plebeian citizens, these Senate voting results are
published on Pridie Nonas Sextiles anno A.U.C. MMDCCLXIV (P. Ullerio C.
Equitio coss.), for the month of *May* this year. Apparently this was never
published due to some kind of oversight. On behalf of the Tribunes, I
apologize for the long delay!

** **

Results were officially published by the presiding magistrate in the Senate.
**


The following Senators cast votes. They are referred to by their initials,
which are listed in alphabetical order:

**
*ATS: Aula Tullia Scholastica

**

*CEC: Gaius Equitius Cato

*CPL: Gaius Popillius Laenas****

*CVA: Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa****

*CnIC: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar - votes cast by Proxy through LCSF**

*DIPI: Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus

*LCSF: Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix****

*MMA - Marcus Minucius Audens

*MIP: Marcus Iulius Perusianus****

*PUSV: Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator****

*QFM: Quintus Fabius Maximus****

*QSP: Quintus Suetonius Paulinus****

*TiGP: Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
�UTI ROGAS� indicates a vote in favour of an item, �ANTIQUO� is a vote
against, and �ABSTINEO� is an expressed abstention.

AGENDA:

**
ITEM I - SENATUS CONSULTUM ULTIMUM DE L. EQUITIO CINCINNATO AUGURE - PASSED

"Under the Constitution of Nova Roma, 'The Senate shall have the power to
issue
the Senatus consultum ultimum (the ultimate decree of the Senate). When in
effect, this decree will supersede all other governmental bodies and
authorities
(with the exception of the dictator) and allow the Senate to invest the
consuls
with absolute powers to deal with a specific situation, subject only to
their
collegial veto and review by the Senate. Even under the authority of the
Senatus
consultum ultimum, the consuls may only temporarily suspend this
Constitution;
they may not enact any permanent changes hereto.' (Const. N.R. V.E)

Under the authority of Section V.E of the Nova Roman Constitution the Senate
of
Nova Roma issues the following senatus consultum ultimum.

1. The Senate of Nova Roma allows the consuls to suspend the lex Saliciae
poenalis, PARS PRIMA section 12 which states that 'A praetorian formula can
be
vetoed by all the magistrates constitutionally empowered to do so. Once a
sententia has been issued by a legal Novoroman court, since this court
represents the will of the Comitia, only a vote in the Comitia may rescind a
sententia by the passage of a lex. If the sententia includes EXACTIO, only
the
Comitia Centuriata can rescind the poena' until Id. Mai. 2764.
2. The Senate of Nova Roma empowers the consuls to issue an edict during
this
time under this senatus consultum ultimum for the purpose of rescinding the
court sententiae in respect of Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus Augur, to wit
a. the sententia of the citizen Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus Augur passed on
20th
February 2008 (K. FABIUS BUTEO MODIANUS VS L. EQUITIUS CINCINNATUS AUGUR),
and
b. the sententia of the citizen Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus Augur passed on
31st
March 2008 (M.MORAVI VS L. EQUITI).


*ATS - ANTIQVO - As everyone here should know by now, I deplore what was
done to Cincinnatus, and would like him to return. However, government by
SCU does not please those of us who are sensible, nor does the setting aside
of an entire judicial sentence for the honorable purpose of facilitating his
return. Moreover, we don�t even know if he would like to return, much less
if he would in fact do so.

**

*CEC - VTI ROGAS

*CPL - VTI ROGAS

*CVA - VTI ROGAS

*CnIC - VTI ROGAS

*DIPI - VTI ROGAS - While I dislike the overuse of the SCU we have fallen
into, I will vote for yet another as this was such an abuse it must be
overturrned.

*LCSF - VTI ROGAS

*MMA - VTI ROGAS

*MIP - VTI ROGAS

**
*PUSV - VTI ROGAS
*QFM - VTI ROGAS - As the Quaestor to the Praetor adjudicating this case so
many irregularities became apparent that the case should have been dismissed
out of hand. Indeed, since the very controversy of Lucius Equitius offense
was in direct violation of the Vedian Constitution, in my and several other
Jurists opinion, made the trial���s reason moot. Nevertheless, it was
continued as an example as who was the powers in NR, and how they needed to
be satisfied. That said, this miscarriage of justice should be rectified
and removed from the record even if Lucius Equitius never returns.

**

*QSP - VTI ROGAS**

*TiGP - VTI ROGAS


ITEM II - SENATUS CONSULTUM DE LEGIBUS DISCENDIS - FAILED

I. Any citizen seeking the office of tribune, praetor, or consul will be
required to first
complete successfully an 'Introduction to Nova Roman Law' class.

II. This class will be administered three times a year, beginning the
Kalends of
Februarius, Kalends of Iunius, and Kalends of Octobris, under the authority
of
one citizen appointed annually by the Senate and one citizen appointed
annually
by the tribunes of the plebs.

III. This course may also be taken at any time it is offered by any
citizen who is interested as often as they would like without restriction;
once
a citizen has successfully completed the course he or she does not need to
take
it again to run for any office in the future.

IV. The course may include quizzes and essay requirements, and will
culminate in a final exam that will be submitted to a blind panel of five
chosen
from among the senators and tribunes by lot. The results of the final exam
will
be posted in the forum within one week of the final exam being given.

V. This law shall take effect on the Kalends of Septembris 2764

*ATS - ANTIQVO - This would seem to reduce the pool of candidates for our
higher offices without noticeable benefit, and appears to impose an
inordinate burden on those who seek a one-year term. Our candidate pool is
already small, and greatly diminished; we do not need to impose tests and
essays on the laws in our Tabularium and all other legal documents simply to
run for office. Every citizen should read the Tabularium and have a basic
familiarity with its contents, but this goes too far. Moreover, it would be
very difficult for new candidates to satisfy this requirement for this year,
since the course has not yet been established, nor has an instructor chosen,
nor has a means of instruction selected although almost half of the year has
passed. At the very least, this requirement would have to be suspended for
this calendar year.

**
*CEC - VTI ROGAS

*CPL - VTI ROGAS

*CVA - ANTIQVO

*CnIC - ANTIQVO

*DIPI - ANTIQVO - Making our pool of candidates even smaller when we are
already tiny . . . the class isn't a bad idea but requiring it is.

*LCSF - ANTIQVO****

*MMA - VTI ROGAS

*MIP - VTI ROGAS****

*PUSV - ANTIQVO

*QFM - ANTIQVO - As much as I appreciate the underlying motivation behind
this, that is know the workings of your Nova Roma government, I believe that
requirement is simply too much. The people who do not take this course
likely will lose to those that do in the elections. No lex is needed.

*QSP - VTI ROGAS ****

*TiGP - VTI ROGAS

ITEM III - GOVERNANCE OF ITALIA & PUBLIC CALL FOR GOVERNORS - PASSED

The Senate of Nova Roma hereby prorogues consular governance of Italia until
the
Kalends of Sextilis, at which time a solution to that question shall be
presented to the Senate.

The Senate of Nova Roma also extends the time frame for the public call for
provincial governors until the Kalends of Quinctilis.

*ATS - VTI ROGAS - not that I like consular oversight in place of something
more normal.

**

*CEC - VTI ROGAS

*CPL - VTI ROGAS****

*CVA - VTI ROGAS****

*CnIC - VTI ROGAS****

*DIPI - VTI ROGAS

*LCSF - VTI ROGAS****

*MMA - VTI ROGAS

*MIP - ANTIQVO****

*PUSV - VTI ROGAS****

*QFM - VTI ROGAS****

*QSP - VTI ROGAS****

*TiGP - VTI ROGAS
ITEM IV - SENATUS CONSULTUM ULTIMAM REGARDING THE PURCHASE OF AN INTERNET
VOTING
PROGRAM - PASSED

The Senate of Nova Roma hereby authorizes the following:

1. the consuls to arrange for, and oversee, the purchase of a year's
subscription to "votingplace.net" for the amount of US$800.00 plus any taxes
and
other charges which may apply.

2. the placement of Quintus Caecilius Metellus Postumianus Pius, under the
general authority of the consuls and the direct authority of the censors, in
a
position from which he may collect, organize, and make any and all necessary
arrangements under the "votingplace.net" program to create the Nova Roman
CISTA,
which will be linked directly to the Nova Roma website as required by
applicable
law. Once the cista has been created, it shall be accessible to all
appropriate
magistrates as necessary under Nova Roman law.

3. the consuls to suspend, until pridie Kalendas Ianuarias 2765, the
following
sections of Nova Roman law: Paragraphs VI.A., VII.A., and VIII.A. of the Lex
Moravia de suffragiis in comitiis plebis tributis, as well as 4.A. of the
Lex
Fabia de ratione comitiorum centuriatorum, and 4.A. of the Lex Fabia de
ratione
comitiorum populi tributorum in order to use citizen ID number and postal
code
as identifying factors rather than a "voter code" generated by the Album
Civium.

*ATS - VTI ROGAS - We must do something, however temporarily. My remarks
above about government by SCU hold good, but here we may have no choice as
we must suspend some of our laws regarding voting methodology in order to
use this system. Let us hope that we can repair our own system in time for
the subsequent elections.

**

*CEC - VTI ROGAS

*CPL - ANTIQVO****

*CVA - VTI ROGAS**

*CnIC - VTI ROGAS**

*DIPI - VTI ROGAS

*LCSF - VTI ROGAS****

*MMA - VTI ROGAS

*MIP - ANTIQVO****

*PUSV - VTI ROGAS**

*QFM - VTI ROGAS - I'****m rather dismayed that we cannot use anything else
to make this work. We are clever people, and yet we have to expend 800.00
of our hard earned money in order to ensure that all NR citizens may vote. I
do not like it, but I understand the necessity. I do hope that this is a
stop gap measure and there is another cheaper plan in the future.

*QSP - VTI ROGAS****

*TiGP - VTI ROGAS


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85116 From: Q Caecilius Metellus Date: 2011-08-05
Subject: Cista: Information Updates
Q Caecilius Metellus Quiritibus salutem dicit.

I will begin the work of gathering the necessary details to compile the
voter information required for our cista in the coming days. The
information to be used in lieu of the voter codes which were used in
the past, however, will consist of some combination of a voter's
information. As a result, to ensure that individuals are best able to
access the cista and cast the votes to which they are entitled, I
hereby formally request that each voter ensure that the details they
have on record in the Censorial database is correct.

I have placed instructions on how to directly check your own
information on my user page in the Wiki:
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/User:Quintus_Caecilius_Metellus_Pius_Postumianus
I will also keep additional announcements and information (including
progress in this cista related work) listed there as well, for the
benefit of the Quirites.

If our governors would be so kind as to inform their provincial
citizens of this request, it would be greatly appreciated. Also, any
owner/moderator of a mailing list/group for things related to Nova Roma
specifically is welcomed, and asked, to pass along this information, so
long as it does not violate any policies in force on said mailing
list/group.

Thank you in advance for your time and cooperation, Quirites, in this
effort to restore your votes.

Ut ualeatis, curate.

--
A chicken is an egg's way of producing more eggs.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85117 From: Belle Morte Statia Date: 2011-08-05
Subject: Re: Cista: Information Updates
Sta. Cornelia Aeternia Q. Caecilio Metello sal:

Following your instructions, I find myself unable to get into the album
civitas, what happens in this case?


Vale Optime,
Aeternia

On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 4:08 PM, Q Caecilius Metellus <
q.caecilius.metellus@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Q Caecilius Metellus Quiritibus salutem dicit.
>
> I will begin the work of gathering the necessary details to compile the
> voter information required for our cista in the coming days. The
> information to be used in lieu of the voter codes which were used in
> the past, however, will consist of some combination of a voter's
> information. As a result, to ensure that individuals are best able to
> access the cista and cast the votes to which they are entitled, I
> hereby formally request that each voter ensure that the details they
> have on record in the Censorial database is correct.
>
> I have placed instructions on how to directly check your own
> information on my user page in the Wiki:
> http://www.novaroma.org/nr/User:Quintus_Caecilius_Metellus_Pius_Postumianus
> I will also keep additional announcements and information (including
> progress in this cista related work) listed there as well, for the
> benefit of the Quirites.
>
> If our governors would be so kind as to inform their provincial
> citizens of this request, it would be greatly appreciated. Also, any
> owner/moderator of a mailing list/group for things related to Nova Roma
> specifically is welcomed, and asked, to pass along this information, so
> long as it does not violate any policies in force on said mailing
> list/group.
>
> Thank you in advance for your time and cooperation, Quirites, in this
> effort to restore your votes.
>
> Ut ualeatis, curate.
>
> --
> A chicken is an egg's way of producing more eggs.
>
>



--
*"Fortes fortuna iuvat"*


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85118 From: iulius sabinus Date: 2011-08-05
Subject: Re: Cista: Information Updates
SALVE!
 
If is password problem follow these instruction:
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Password%c2%a0
 
VALE,
Sabinus

"Every individual is the architect of his own fortune" - Appius Claudius

From: Belle Morte Statia <syrenslullaby@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, August 6, 2011 3:43 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Cista: Information Updates

Sta. Cornelia Aeternia Q. Caecilio Metello sal:

Following your instructions, I find myself unable to get into the album
civitas, what happens in this case?


Vale Optime,
Aeternia

On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 4:08 PM, Q Caecilius Metellus <
q.caecilius.metellus@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Q Caecilius Metellus Quiritibus salutem dicit.
>
> I will begin the work of gathering the necessary details to compile the
> voter information required for our cista in the coming days. The
> information to be used in lieu of the voter codes which were used in
> the past, however, will consist of some combination of a voter's
> information. As a result, to ensure that individuals are best able to
> access the cista and cast the votes to which they are entitled, I
> hereby formally request that each voter ensure that the details they
> have on record in the Censorial database is correct.
>
> I have placed instructions on how to directly check your own
> information on my user page in the Wiki:
> http://www.novaroma.org/nr/User:Quintus_Caecilius_Metellus_Pius_Postumianus
> I will also keep additional announcements and information (including
> progress in this cista related work) listed there as well, for the
> benefit of the Quirites.
>
> If our governors would be so kind as to inform their provincial
> citizens of this request, it would be greatly appreciated. Also, any
> owner/moderator of a mailing list/group for things related to Nova Roma
> specifically is welcomed, and asked, to pass along this information, so
> long as it does not violate any policies in force on said mailing
> list/group.
>
> Thank you in advance for your time and cooperation, Quirites, in this
> effort to restore your votes.
>
> Ut ualeatis, curate.
>
> --
> A chicken is an egg's way of producing more eggs.
> 
>



--
*"Fortes fortuna iuvat"*


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85119 From: Jean-François Arnoud Date: 2011-08-06
Subject: Re : [Nova-Roma] Senate Session Report for May {LATE}
C. Petronius Dexter C. Tullio Valeriano s.p.d.,
 
Your report is late and wrong. Perhaps wrong because late.
Actually you are counting the votes of senators who voted after the last deadline.

I recall you that this session was more than once delayed by the consul Cato and its voting period not allowed by auspicies. (The auspicies, as you know, were taken for another dates.)

So this report is not a senatus session report but the report of a session of Cato and some buddies of him into the senate. 

Optime vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
a. d. VIII Idus Sextiles P. Vllerio C. Equitio consulibus 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85120 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-06
Subject: Re: Re : [Nova-Roma] Senate Session Report for May {LATE}
Ave,

Unfortunately, Dexter, you are in the minority opinion. This is why the
session is being reported and it will be eventually listed in the Tabularium
and the decisions made by the Board of Directors during the senate session
are valid.

Respectfully,

Sulla

On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 10:37 PM, Jean-Fran�ois Arnoud
<jfarnoud94@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> C. Petronius Dexter C. Tullio Valeriano s.p.d.,
>
> Your report is late and wrong. Perhaps wrong because late.
> Actually you are counting the votes of senators who voted after the last
> deadline.
>
> I recall you that this session was more than once delayed by the consul
> Cato and its voting period not allowed by auspicies. (The auspicies, as you
> know, were taken for another dates.)
>
> So this report is not a senatus session report but the report of a session
> of Cato and some buddies of him into the senate.
>
> Optime vale.
>
> C. Petronius Dexter
> Arcoiali scribebat
> a. d. VIII Idus Sextiles P. Vllerio C. Equitio consulibus
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85121 From: Q Caecilius Metellus Date: 2011-08-06
Subject: Re: Senate Session Report for May {LATE}
Q Caecilius Metellus pontifex C Petronio Dextro pontifici s.d.

You stated:

> Your report is late and wrong. Perhaps wrong because late.
> Actually you are counting the votes of senators who voted after the
> last deadline.
>
> I recall you that this session was more than once delayed by the
> consul Cato and its voting period not allowed by auspicies. (The
> auspicies, as you know, were taken for another dates.)

This brings up a good question. In reviewing the archives, one finds
that the session was announced by the tribunus C Aemilius (msg. 84264,
on this list). It was announced to take place from 26 Apr through 03
Mai. It was also formally closed by Consul C Equitius in the late part
of May (msg. 84629). With that timing, one can certainly assume that
the session was extended.

You note specifically that the session was delayed a number of times,
and that this voting period was not allowed by the auspices. This
brings us to a wonderful question for our Collegium Augurum, though
some of this may very well be dependent on the auspices themselves,
i.e., the question originally posed. If the question was not
time-delimited, that is to say, if the question was not along the lines
of "Do you condone the voting of the Senate from 'time A' to 'time
B'?" (emphasis on the latter time), there may be less of an issue than
may be made of it. Ostensibly, none of those so empowered vetoed the
extensions at the time, and the time limit has long since passed to do
so.

Additionally, there is a further issue, and one which I would greatly
appreciate being considered by our Collegium Augurum. In fact, I
implore that collegium to consider the question. Though the
Collegium Augurum lacks the ability to invalidate the session at this
point, they may certainly rule on whether it should be invalidated in
light of augural law. Specifically, I would be interested to know the
opinion of that collegium on the question of the auspices in relation to
extensions. If a session of a body required to operate under auspices
needs to be extended, must new auspices be taken? Under the same need
for extension, perhaps alternatively, would the session need to instead
be closed without decision, and re-started under new auspices? Perhaps
those answers might bring some clarity to this issue, and even more,
resolve it.

--
Democracy is the worst form of government except all those other
forms that have been tried from time to time.
-- Winston Churchill
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85122 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2011-08-06
Subject: Re: Senate Session Report for May {LATE}
C. Tullius Valerianus Germanicus Augur Q. Caecilio Metello Pio Postumiano
Pontifici S.P.D.

Your request for clarification in these matters has been noted and will
be presented to the College of Augurs. Please allow 72 hours from the time
it is presented to the College for consultation on these matters before we
can issue a *responsum. *Presentation to the College will be done a.d. VII
Kal. Sex., since today (a.d. VIII Kal. Sex.) is a *dies ater, *and we shall
not undertake new business on this day.

Vale!

Data Phoenice a.d. VII Kal. Sex. anno A.U.C. MMDCCLXIV (P. Ullerio C.
Equitio coss.)

On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 11:15 PM, Q Caecilius Metellus <
q.caecilius.metellus@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Q Caecilius Metellus pontifex C Petronio Dextro pontifici s.d.
>
> You stated:
>
>
> > Your report is late and wrong. Perhaps wrong because late.
> > Actually you are counting the votes of senators who voted after the
> > last deadline.
> >
> > I recall you that this session was more than once delayed by the
> > consul Cato and its voting period not allowed by auspicies. (The
> > auspicies, as you know, were taken for another dates.)
>
> This brings up a good question. In reviewing the archives, one finds
> that the session was announced by the tribunus C Aemilius (msg. 84264,
> on this list). It was announced to take place from 26 Apr through 03
> Mai. It was also formally closed by Consul C Equitius in the late part
> of May (msg. 84629). With that timing, one can certainly assume that
> the session was extended.
>
> You note specifically that the session was delayed a number of times,
> and that this voting period was not allowed by the auspices. This
> brings us to a wonderful question for our Collegium Augurum, though
> some of this may very well be dependent on the auspices themselves,
> i.e., the question originally posed. If the question was not
> time-delimited, that is to say, if the question was not along the lines
> of "Do you condone the voting of the Senate from 'time A' to 'time
> B'?" (emphasis on the latter time), there may be less of an issue than
> may be made of it. Ostensibly, none of those so empowered vetoed the
> extensions at the time, and the time limit has long since passed to do
> so.
>
> Additionally, there is a further issue, and one which I would greatly
> appreciate being considered by our Collegium Augurum. In fact, I
> implore that collegium to consider the question. Though the
> Collegium Augurum lacks the ability to invalidate the session at this
> point, they may certainly rule on whether it should be invalidated in
> light of augural law. Specifically, I would be interested to know the
> opinion of that collegium on the question of the auspices in relation to
> extensions. If a session of a body required to operate under auspices
> needs to be extended, must new auspices be taken? Under the same need
> for extension, perhaps alternatively, would the session need to instead
> be closed without decision, and re-started under new auspices? Perhaps
> those answers might bring some clarity to this issue, and even more,
> resolve it.
>
> --
> Democracy is the worst form of government except all those other
> forms that have been tried from time to time.
> -- Winston Churchill
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85123 From: Cato Date: 2011-08-07
Subject: a.d. VII Id. Sext.
Cato omnibus in foro SPD

Hodiernus dies est ante diem VII Idus Sextiles; hic dies fastus est.

"All good things, my dear Clea, sensible men must ask from the gods;
and especially do we pray that from those mighty gods we may, in our
quest, gain a knowledge of themselves, so far as such a thing is
attainable by men. For we believe that there is nothing more
important for man to receive, or more ennobling for God of His grace
to grant, than the truth. God gives to men the other things for which
they express a desire, but of sense and intelligence He grants them
only a share, inasmuch as these are His especial possessions and His
sphere of activity. For the Deity is not blessed by reason of his
possession of gold and silver,3 nor strong because of thunder and
lightning, but through knowledge and intelligence. Of all the things
that Homer said about the gods, he has expressed most beautifully this
thought:

'Both, indeed, were in lineage one, and of the same country,
Yet was Zeus the earlier born and his knowledge was greater.' [Homer,
Iliad XIII.354]

Thereby the poet plainly declares that the primacy of Zeus is nobler
since it is elder in knowledge and in wisdom. I think also that a
source of happiness in the eternal life, which is the lot of God, is
that events which come to pass do not escape His prescience. But if
His knowledge and meditation on the nature of Existence should be
taken away, then, to my mind, His immortality is not living, but a
mere lapse of time.

Therefore the effort to arrive at the Truth, and especially the truth
about the gods, is a longing for the divine. For the search for truth
requires for its study and investigation the consideration of sacred
subjects, and it is a work more hallowed than any form of holy living
or temple service; and, not least of all, it is well-pleasing to that
goddess whom you worship, a goddess exceptionally wise and a lover of
wisdom, to whom, fas her name at least seems to indicate, knowledge
and understanding are in the highest degree appropriate. For Isis is a
Greek word, and so also is Typhon, her enemy, who is conceited, as his
name implies, because of his ignorance and self-deception. He tears to
pieces and scatters to the winds the sacred writings, which the
goddess collects and puts together and gives into the keeping of those
that are initiated into the holy rites, since this consecration, by a
strict regimen and by abstinence from many kinds of food and from the
lusts of the flesh, curtails licentiousness and the love of pleasure,
and induces a habit of patient submission to the stern and rigorous
services in shrines, the end and aim of which is the knowledge of Him
who is the First, the Lord of All, the Ideal One. Him does the god
urge us to seek, since He is near her and with her and in close
communion. The name of her shrine also clearly promises knowledge and
p11comprehension of reality; for it is named Iseion, to indicate that
we shall comprehend reality if in a reasonable and devout frame of
mind we pass within the portals of her shrines.

Moreover, many writers have held her to be the daughter of Hermes, and
many others the daughter of Prometheus, because of the belief that
Prometheus is the discoverer of wisdom and forethought, and Hermes the
inventor of grammar and music. For this reason they call the first of
the Muses at Hermopolis Isis as well as Justice: for she is wise, as I
have said, and discloses the divine mysteries to those who truly and
justly have the name of "bearers of the sacred vessels" and "wearers
of the sacred robes." These are they who within their own soul, as
though within a casket, bear the sacred writings about the gods clear
of all superstition and pedantry; and they cloak them with secrecy,
thus giving intimation, some dark and shadowy, some clear and bright,
of their concepts about the gods, intimations of the same sort as are
clearly evidenced in the wearing of the sacred garb. For this reason,
too, the fact that the deceased votaries of Isis are decked with these
garments is a sign that these sacred writings accompany them, and that
they pass to the other world possessed of these and of naught else. It
is a fact, Clea, that having a beard and wearing a coarse cloak does
not make philosophers, nor does dressing in linen and shaving the hair
make votaries of Isis; but the true votary of Isis is he who, when he
has legitimately received what is set forth in the ceremonies
connected with these gods, uses reason in investigating and in
studying the truth contained therein." - Plutarch, "Isis and Osiris" I.1-3

In ancient Egypt, today was the Festival of Opet, also known as the
"Breaking of the Nile". Centered in Thebes, this boisterous festival,
known as the Beautiful Feast of the Opet, held in the second civil
month and was set according to a lunar calendar. It was perhaps not as
old a celebration as some of the other feasts, though during the New
Kingdom particularly, the celebration of Opet was predominate. Its
duration of twenty-seven days in the 20th Dynasty shows how
significant the celebration became. However, we know virtually nothing
about the celebration prior to the 18th Dynasty and the rise of Thebes.

Theban citizens and their guests from afar celebrated the fruitful
link between their pharaoh and the almighty god, Amun, who in the New
Kingdom became a state god. During the celebration it was thought that
the might and power of Amun were ritually bequeathed to his living
son, the pharoah. Therefore, the celebration belonged to the official
royal ideology of the state and, not surprisingly, witnessed the
personal involvement of the pharaoh.

Because of the flooding, work was temporarily suspended in fields. The
people joined in a dramatic procession honoring Amun that began at the
Temple of Amun in Karnak and ended at Luxor Temple one and a half
miles away at the south end of the city.

At Karnak, the people watched the high priests disappear in the
temple. Inside, the priests bathed the image of the god and dressed
him in colorful linen and adorned him with jewelry from the temple
treasury including magnificent necklaces, bracelets, scepters, amulets
and trinkets of gold or silver encrusted with lapis lazuli, enamel,
glass and semi-precious gems. The priests then enclosed the god in a
shrine and then placed the shrine on top of a ceremonial barque or
boat, often supported by poles for carrying.

When the priests emerged from the temple, they carried the barque on
their shoulders throughout the pillared halls and courtyards of
Karnak. Then they moved into the crowded streets where people elbowed
each other to catch a glimpse of the sacred vessel. Many a small
Egyptian child was lucky to be placed on his or her parent's shoulder
to be able to see.

In Hatshepsut's time, the complete journey was accomplished on foot,
while stopping at different resting stations. Later, the boat was
carried to the Nile and then towed upriver to Luxor Temple by high
government officials who vied for the enviable honor. The pharaoh
himself was there to greet Amun and escort him to Luxor Temple. The
people heard the steady beat of soldier's drums and watched as men
from Nubia danced to songs of devotion sung by the priests.

After reaching Luxor, the pharaoh and priests left the crowd behind
and maneuvered the boat into the dark recesses of the temple. Incense
filled the air. There was a ceremony communing with another holy image
of Amun, Amun-Min, who inseminated the earth, according to the ancient
beliefs of creation, and brought about plentiful harvests.

Now the pharaoh emerged from the sanctuary. The citizens greeted him
wildly and praised his accomplishments; any wrongs he had committed
were automatically forgiven. "He was once more the embodiment of
divine strength and generosity, the source of bounty and well-being
for Egypt."

During the Festival of Opet, Thebans could ask the god questions
(oracles) that could be answered by a simple yes or no. A man might
ask if his brother in another town was in good health, If the barge
dipped forward, the answer was yes; if it backed away, the reply was
no. Commoners were also allowed to put questions to a god in his
temple. For these exceptional times, the fortunate citizens who were
allowed into the temple were escorted to special audience rooms. The
priests would convey the answers either through a concealed window
high up in the wall or from inside a hollow statue.

More than anything, the ancient Egyptian population enjoyed the
generosity of the gods during these festivals. During one Opet
festival in the 12th century BC, it is recorded that temple officials
distributed 11,341 loaves of bread and 385 jars of beer to the citizens.

Valete bene!

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85124 From: D. Cornelius Mento Date: 2011-08-07
Subject: Introduction
Salvete omnes!


A new citizen from Nova Eboracum saying hello. Hello and pass the garum.


Vale,

Decimus Cornelius Mento



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85125 From: C.Maria Caeca Date: 2011-08-07
Subject: Re: Introduction
Salve, Mento!

Welcome, citizen, to the ML! Oh, and ...here ya go!

Vale bene!
C. Maria Caeca

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85126 From: D. Cornelius Mento Date: 2011-08-07
Subject: Re: Introduction
Salve Caeca,

Gratias tibi ago. Yahoo removed the non text portion of what you sent me.


Vale,

D. Mento

On 8/7/2011 1:14 PM, C.Maria Caeca wrote:
>
> Salve, Mento!
>
> Welcome, citizen, to the ML! Oh, and ...here ya go!
>
> Vale bene!
> C. Maria Caeca
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

--


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85127 From: C.Maria Caeca Date: 2011-08-07
Subject: Re: Introduction
Salve Mento!

Oh! sorry ...no I didn't send any pics or graphics. I just passed the garum, as you requested, (smile).

Vale Bene!
Caeca

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85128 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2011-08-07
Subject: Re: Introduction
Ave Amice!!!

Welcome to the forum! It would be absolutely rude of me if I did not say hello!

Yahoo usually tacks onto the end of the message something to the effect that non-text portions have been remove, I think adding attachements may even be disabled.

If i can help you in anyway please do not hesitate to ask!

Cura ut valeas!

Julia
Nashvillae Scribebat
a.d. VIII Id. Sex. ‡ P. Ullerio C. Equitio cos. ‡ MMDCCLXIV a.u.c.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "D. Cornelius Mento" <decimuscorneliusmento@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete omnes!
>
>
> A new citizen from Nova Eboracum saying hello. Hello and pass the garum.
>
>
> Vale,
>
> Decimus Cornelius Mento
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85129 From: D. Cornelius Mento Date: 2011-08-07
Subject: Re: Introduction
Smiling back.



On 8/7/2011 1:38 PM, C.Maria Caeca wrote:
>
> Salve Mento!
>
> Oh! sorry ...no I didn't send any pics or graphics. I just passed the
> garum, as you requested, (smile).
>
> Vale Bene!
> Caeca
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

--


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85130 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2011-08-07
Subject: Re: Introduction
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica D. Mentoni S.P.D.
>
>
>
> Salve Caeca,
>
> Gratias tibi ago. Yahoo removed the non text portion of what you sent me.
>
> ATS: Welcome to Nova Roma! If you use HTML, or (apparently) if you use
> certain mail systems, Yahoo puts a notice saying that it removes all non-text
> portions of the message, but that is not the case. It puts such a notice on
> my mail all the time. This list no longer allows attachments (and rarely has
> allowed them), so nothing that C. Maria Caeca sent you has been removed; Yahoo
> has merely added a notice that non-text portions have been removed.
>
> Not sure what she meant by here ya go, though...it is unlikely that she
> attempted to send an attachment here.
>
> Vale,
>
> D. Mento
>
> Vale!
>
>
>
> On 8/7/2011 1:14 PM, C.Maria Caeca wrote:
>> >
>> > Salve, Mento!
>> >
>> > Welcome, citizen, to the ML! Oh, and ...here ya go!
>> >
>> > Vale bene!
>> > C. Maria Caeca
>> >
>> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >
>> >




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85131 From: D. Cornelius Mento Date: 2011-08-07
Subject: Re: Introduction
Gratias tibi ago, Domina.

Vale bene,

D. Mento

On 8/7/2011 2:00 PM, luciaiuliaaquila wrote:
>
> Ave Amice!!!
>
> Welcome to the forum! It would be absolutely rude of me if I did not
> say hello!
>
> Yahoo usually tacks onto the end of the message something to the
> effect that non-text portions have been remove, I think adding
> attachements may even be disabled.
>
> If i can help you in anyway please do not hesitate to ask!
>
> Cura ut valeas!
>
> Julia
> Nashvillae Scribebat
> a.d. VIII Id. Sex. ++ P. Ullerio C. Equitio cos. ++ MMDCCLXIV a.u.c.
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "D. Cornelius Mento" <decimuscorneliusmento@...> wrote:
> >
> > Salvete omnes!
> >
> >
> > A new citizen from Nova Eboracum saying hello. Hello and pass the garum.
> >
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Decimus Cornelius Mento
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>

--


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85132 From: Quintus Caecilius Metellus Date: 2011-08-07
Subject: Re: Introduction
Q Caecilius Metellus s.d.

Train of joke...

D Cornelius introduces himself and asks that someone pass the garum
C Maria responds, and in the process, passes the garum ("here ya go")
D Cornelius remarks that Yahoo has removed all non-text portions of
the message (i.e., the passed garum), in light of the notice usually
seen at the bottom of messages.

Welcome, D Corneli, to the forum. Since Yahoo won't serve as
intermediary in obtaining your garum, you'll have to get it yourself.
It's in the back, and to the left.

Valete.

On 7 August 2011 11:23, A. Tullia Scholastica <fororom@...> wrote:
>>
>>  A. Tullia Scholastica D. Mentoni S.P.D.
>>
>>
>>
>> Salve Caeca,
>>
>> Gratias tibi ago.  Yahoo removed the non text portion of what you sent me.
>>
>>     ATS:  Welcome to Nova Roma!  If you use HTML, or (apparently) if you use
>> certain mail systems, Yahoo puts a notice saying that it removes all non-text
>> portions of the message, but that is not the case.  It puts such a notice on
>> my mail all the time.  This list no longer allows attachments (and rarely has
>> allowed them), so nothing that C. Maria Caeca sent you has been removed; Yahoo
>> has merely added a notice that non-text portions have been removed.
>>
>>     Not sure what she meant by here ya go, though...it is unlikely that she
>> attempted to send an attachment here.
>>
>> Vale,
>>
>> D. Mento
>>
>> Vale!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85133 From: D. Cornelius Mento Date: 2011-08-07
Subject: Re: Introduction
Now that I know where the garum is I'll put my hot sauce away. :)

Valete.


D. Mento



On 8/7/2011 2:28 PM, Quintus Caecilius Metellus wrote:
>
> Q Caecilius Metellus s.d.
>
> Train of joke...
>
> D Cornelius introduces himself and asks that someone pass the garum
> C Maria responds, and in the process, passes the garum ("here ya go")
> D Cornelius remarks that Yahoo has removed all non-text portions of
> the message (i.e., the passed garum), in light of the notice usually
> seen at the bottom of messages.
>
> Welcome, D Corneli, to the forum. Since Yahoo won't serve as
> intermediary in obtaining your garum, you'll have to get it yourself.
> It's in the back, and to the left.
>
> Valete.
>
> On 7 August 2011 11:23, A. Tullia Scholastica <fororom@...
> <mailto:fororom%40localnet.com>> wrote:
> >>
> >> A. Tullia Scholastica D. Mentoni S.P.D.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Salve Caeca,
> >>
> >> Gratias tibi ago. Yahoo removed the non text portion of what you
> sent me.
> >>
> >> ATS: Welcome to Nova Roma! If you use HTML, or (apparently)
> if you use
> >> certain mail systems, Yahoo puts a notice saying that it removes
> all non-text
> >> portions of the message, but that is not the case. It puts such a
> notice on
> >> my mail all the time. This list no longer allows attachments (and
> rarely has
> >> allowed them), so nothing that C. Maria Caeca sent you has been
> removed; Yahoo
> >> has merely added a notice that non-text portions have been removed.
> >>
> >> Not sure what she meant by here ya go, though...it is unlikely
> that she
> >> attempted to send an attachment here.
> >>
> >> Vale,
> >>
> >> D. Mento
> >>
> >> Vale!
>
>

--


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85134 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2011-08-07
Subject: Re: Introduction
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica D. Mentoni quiritibus bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
>
>
>
> Now that I know where the garum is I'll put my hot sauce away. :)
>
> ATS: If you like garum, you might be interested in joining our cooking
> sodalitas, coq & coq (as it is familiarly known). Its head, Venator, can tell
> you more if you are interested.
>
> Not sure if garum is hot, but it definitely is fishy...
>
> Valete.
>
> Vale, et valete.
>
> D. Mento
>
> On 8/7/2011 2:28 PM, Quintus Caecilius Metellus wrote:
>> >
>> > Q Caecilius Metellus s.d.
>> >
>> > Train of joke...
>> >
>> > D Cornelius introduces himself and asks that someone pass the garum
>> > C Maria responds, and in the process, passes the garum ("here ya go")
>> > D Cornelius remarks that Yahoo has removed all non-text portions of
>> > the message (i.e., the passed garum), in light of the notice usually
>> > seen at the bottom of messages.
>> >
>> > Welcome, D Corneli, to the forum. Since Yahoo won't serve as
>> > intermediary in obtaining your garum, you'll have to get it yourself.
>> > It's in the back, and to the left.
>> >
>> > Valete.
>> >
>> > On 7 August 2011 11:23, A. Tullia Scholastica <fororom@...
>> <mailto:fororom%40localnet.com>
>> > <mailto:fororom%40localnet.com>> wrote:
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> A. Tullia Scholastica D. Mentoni S.P.D.
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> Salve Caeca,
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> Gratias tibi ago. Yahoo removed the non text portion of what you
>> > sent me.
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> ATS: Welcome to Nova Roma! If you use HTML, or (apparently)
>> > if you use
>>>> > >> certain mail systems, Yahoo puts a notice saying that it removes
>> > all non-text
>>>> > >> portions of the message, but that is not the case. It puts such a
>> > notice on
>>>> > >> my mail all the time. This list no longer allows attachments (and
>> > rarely has
>>>> > >> allowed them), so nothing that C. Maria Caeca sent you has been
>> > removed; Yahoo
>>>> > >> has merely added a notice that non-text portions have been removed.
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> Not sure what she meant by here ya go, though...it is unlikely
>> > that she
>>>> > >> attempted to send an attachment here.
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> Vale,
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> D. Mento
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> Vale!
>> >
>> >




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85135 From: D. Cornelius Mento Date: 2011-08-07
Subject: Re: Introduction
Already joined, gratias tibi ago.




On 8/7/2011 2:52 PM, A. Tullia Scholastica wrote:
>
> >
> > A. Tullia Scholastica D. Mentoni quiritibus bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
> >
> >
> >
> > Now that I know where the garum is I'll put my hot sauce away. :)
> >
> > ATS: If you like garum, you might be interested in joining our cooking
> > sodalitas, coq & coq (as it is familiarly known). Its head, Venator,
> can tell
> > you more if you are interested.
> >
> > Not sure if garum is hot, but it definitely is fishy...
> >
> > Valete.
> >
> > Vale, et valete.
> >
> > D. Mento
> >
> > On 8/7/2011 2:28 PM, Quintus Caecilius Metellus wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Q Caecilius Metellus s.d.
> >> >
> >> > Train of joke...
> >> >
> >> > D Cornelius introduces himself and asks that someone pass the garum
> >> > C Maria responds, and in the process, passes the garum ("here ya go")
> >> > D Cornelius remarks that Yahoo has removed all non-text portions of
> >> > the message (i.e., the passed garum), in light of the notice usually
> >> > seen at the bottom of messages.
> >> >
> >> > Welcome, D Corneli, to the forum. Since Yahoo won't serve as
> >> > intermediary in obtaining your garum, you'll have to get it yourself.
> >> > It's in the back, and to the left.
> >> >
> >> > Valete.
> >> >
> >> > On 7 August 2011 11:23, A. Tullia Scholastica
> <fororom@... <mailto:fororom%40localnet.com>
> >> <mailto:fororom%40localnet.com>
> >> > <mailto:fororom%40localnet.com>> wrote:
> >>>> > >>
> >>>> > >> A. Tullia Scholastica D. Mentoni S.P.D.
> >>>> > >>
> >>>> > >>
> >>>> > >>
> >>>> > >> Salve Caeca,
> >>>> > >>
> >>>> > >> Gratias tibi ago. Yahoo removed the non text portion of what you
> >> > sent me.
> >>>> > >>
> >>>> > >> ATS: Welcome to Nova Roma! If you use HTML, or (apparently)
> >> > if you use
> >>>> > >> certain mail systems, Yahoo puts a notice saying that it removes
> >> > all non-text
> >>>> > >> portions of the message, but that is not the case. It puts
> such a
> >> > notice on
> >>>> > >> my mail all the time. This list no longer allows attachments
> (and
> >> > rarely has
> >>>> > >> allowed them), so nothing that C. Maria Caeca sent you has been
> >> > removed; Yahoo
> >>>> > >> has merely added a notice that non-text portions have been
> removed.
> >>>> > >>
> >>>> > >> Not sure what she meant by here ya go, though...it is unlikely
> >> > that she
> >>>> > >> attempted to send an attachment here.
> >>>> > >>
> >>>> > >> Vale,
> >>>> > >>
> >>>> > >> D. Mento
> >>>> > >>
> >>>> > >> Vale!
> >> >
> >> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

--


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85136 From: Cn. Cornelius Lentulus Date: 2011-08-07
Subject: Nova Roma Reenactor Camp
Cn. Lentulus legatus pro praetore Pannoniae Quiritibus s. p. d.


I gladly and proudly announce that the VIth Nova Roman Reenector Camp in Pannonia will start tomorrow and it will last one full week. It is organized by the in the mountains now, not in its usual place, and this year we are not prepared to receive international guests but nevertheless we will have a nice Nova Roman week to the greater glory of Romanitas.

Please send your prayers and good wishes for the success of our Camp, and be assured that you, the entire community of Nova Roma, will also be remembered in our events and sacrifices.

Valete optime!

CN. CORNELIVS LENTVLVS, PONTIFEX
LEGATVS PRO PRAETORE PANNONIAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85137 From: C.Maria Caeca Date: 2011-08-07
Subject: Re: Nova Roma Reenactor Camp
C. Maria Caeca Cn. Cornelio Lentulo S. P. D.

Have a glorious time, Amice, and may the gods grace your event with their presence ...and beautiful weather!

Vale quam optime!
CMC

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85138 From: Cn. Cornelius Lentulus Date: 2011-08-07
Subject: Re: Nova Roma Reenactor Camp
Salve, Maria!

Thank you, amica carissima! We will need that!

Vale optime!
Lentulus

--- Dom 7/8/11, C.Maria Caeca <c.mariacaeca@...> ha scritto:

Da: C.Maria Caeca <c.mariacaeca@...>
Oggetto: Re: [Nova-Roma] Nova Roma Reenactor Camp
A: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Data: Domenica 7 agosto 2011, 22:10
















 









C. Maria Caeca Cn. Cornelio Lentulo S. P. D.



Have a glorious time, Amice, and may the gods grace your event with their presence ...and beautiful weather!



Vale quam optime!

CMC



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85139 From: James V Hooper Date: 2011-08-07
Subject: Re: Introduction
Salve and welcome,



On Sun, 07 Aug 2011 12:45:32 -0400
"D. Cornelius Mento" <decimuscorneliusmento@...> wrote:
> Salvete omnes!
>
>
> A new citizen from Nova Eboracum saying hello. Hello and pass the garum.
>
>
> Vale,
>
> Decimus Cornelius Mento
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85140 From: iulius sabinus Date: 2011-08-08
Subject: Re: Nova Roma Reenactor Camp
SALVE AMICE!
 
Have nice time there and a lot of fun.
 
VALE,
Sabinus

"Every individual is the architect of his own fortune" - Appius Claudius

From: Cn. Cornelius Lentulus <cn_corn_lent@...>
To: Nova Roma ML <nova-roma@yahoogroups.com>; Forum Hospitum <nova_roma_@yahoogroups.com>; Religio Romana List <ReligioRomana@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: NR_Pannonia <nr_pannonia@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 7, 2011 10:59 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Nova Roma Reenactor Camp


 

Cn. Lentulus legatus pro praetore Pannoniae Quiritibus s. p. d.

I gladly and proudly announce that the VIth Nova Roman Reenector Camp in Pannonia will start tomorrow and it will last one full week. It is organized by the in the mountains now, not in its usual place, and this year we are not prepared to receive international guests but nevertheless we will have a nice Nova Roman week to the greater glory of Romanitas.

Please send your prayers and good wishes for the success of our Camp, and be assured that you, the entire community of Nova Roma, will also be remembered in our events and sacrifices.

Valete optime!

CN. CORNELIVS LENTVLVS, PONTIFEX
LEGATVS PRO PRAETORE PANNONIAE



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85141 From: Cato Date: 2011-08-08
Subject: a.d. VI Id. Sext.
Cato omnibus in foro SPD

Hodiernus dies est ante diem VI Idus Sextiles; haec dies comitialis est.

"In the battle against the clans of the Allobroges and Arverni on the
river Isere, on August 8th [121 BC], when 130,000 of the foe were
killed, the consul Quintus Fabius Maximus got rid of a quartan ague in
action." - Pliny

"As for Clodius, after driving Cicero away he burned down his villas,
and burned down his house, and erected on its site a temple to
Liberty; the rest of his property he offered for sale and had it
proclaimed daily, but nobody would buy anything. Being therefore
formidable to the patricians, and dragging along with him the people,
who indulged in great boldness and effrontery, he assailed Pompey,
attacking fiercely some of the arrangements made by him on his
expedition. The disgrace which this brought upon Pompey led him to
reproach himself for his abandonment of Cicero; and changing front he
used every effort to effect Cicero's return, and so did his friends.
But since Clodius opposed himself to this, the senate decided to
ratify no measure that came up in the mean time and to do no public
business, unless Cicero should be permitted to return. During the
consulship of Lentulus, however, when the disorder went on
increasing, so that tribunes were wounded in the forum and Quintus the
brother of Cicero lay unnoticed for dead among the slain, the people
began to change their minds, and Annius Milo, one of the tribunes,
first ventured to prosecute Clodius for violence, and many joined
themselves to Pompey both from the people and from the surrounding
cities. With these Pompey came forth, drove Clodius from the forum,
and summoned the citizens to the vote. And it is said that the
people never passed any vote with such unanimity. The senate, too,
vying with the people, wrote letters of thanks to all the cities which
had ministered to Cicero during his exile, and decreed that his house
and his villas, which Clodius had destroyed, should be restored at the
public cost.

Thus Cicero came home in the sixteenth month after his exile; and so
great was the joy of the cities and the eagerness of men to meet him
that what was said by Cicero afterwards fell short of the truth. He
said, namely, that Italy had taken him on her shoulders and carried
him into Rome. And there Crassus also, who was his enemy before his
exile, now readily met him and was reconciled with him, to gratify his
son Publius, as he said, who was an ardent admirer of Cicero. " -
Plutarch, "Lives", Cicero XXXIII

In 60 BC Julius Caesar, Pompey, and Crassus (often referred to today
as the First Triumvirate) combined their resources and took control of
Roman politics. Recognizing his popularity and talents, they made
several attempts to get Cicero to join them, but Cicero hesitated and
eventually refused, preferring to remain loyal to the Senate and the
idea of the Republic. This left him open to attacks by his enemies,
and in January of 58 BC one of them, the tribune Clodius (a follower
of Caesar's), proposed a law to be applied retroactively stating that
anyone who killed a Roman citizen without trial would be stripped of
their citizenship and forced into exile. This proposal led to rioting
and physical attacks on Cicero, who fled the city. The law passed.
Cicero was forbidden to live within 500 miles of Italy, and all his
property was confiscated. This exile, during which Cicero could not
take part in politics, provided the time for his first period of
sustained philosophical study as an adult. After roughly a year and a
half of exile, the political conditions changed, his property was
restored to him, and he was allowed to return to Rome, which he did to
great popular approval, claiming that the Republic was restored with him.

Valete bene!

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85142 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-09
Subject: Very cool link
http://news.yahoo.com/jerusalem-tunnel-glimpse-ancient-war-111649346.html


In a Jerusalem tunnel, a glimpse of an ancient war[image:
AP]<http://www.ap.org/>By
MATTI FRIEDMAN - Associated Press | AP � 22 hrs ago

- [image: In this picture taken Tuesday, Aug. 2, 2011, Eli Shukron, an
Israel Antiquities Authority archaeologist cleans stones making part of an
underground section of the Western Wall at the end of what archaeologists
say is a 2,000-year-old drainage tunnel leading to Jerusalem's Old City. The
excavation of an ancient drainage tunnel beneath Jerusalem has yielded new
artifacts from a war here 2,000-years ago, archaeologists said Monday, Aug.
8, 2011, shedding light on a key episode of the past buried under today's
politically combustible city. (AP Photo/Dan
Balilty)]<http://news.yahoo.com/photos/glimpse-of-ancient-war-in-jerusalem-tunnel-1312826573-slideshow/>

Dan Balilty - In this picture taken Tuesday, Aug. 2, 2011, Eli Shukron,
an Israel Antiquities Authority archaeologist cleans stones making part of
an underground section of the Western Wall at the end of what
�more* *archaeologists say is a 2,000-year-old drainage tunnel leading
to
Jerusalem's Old City. The excavation of an ancient drainage tunnel beneath
Jerusalem has yielded new artifacts from a war here 2,000-years ago,
archaeologists said Monday, Aug. 8, 2011, shedding light on a key episode of
the past buried under today's politically combustible city. (AP Photo/Dan
Balilty) less* *


-
- tweet<http://news.yahoo.com/_xhr/social/share/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.yahoo.com%2Fjerusalem-tunnel-glimpse-ancient-war-111649346.html&text=In%20a%20Jerusalem%20tunnel%2C%20a%20glimpse%20of%20an%20ancient%20war%20-%20Yahoo%21%20News&via=YahooNews&related=YahooOddNew,Yahoo&counturl=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.yahoo.com%2Fjerusalem-tunnel-glimpse-ancient-war-111649346.html&lang=en&action=retweet>
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JERUSALEM (AP) � The excavation of an ancient drainage tunnel beneath
Jerusalem has yielded a sword, oil lamps, pots and coins abandoned during a
war here 2,000 years ago, archaeologists said Monday, suggesting the finds
were debris from a pivotal episode in the city's history when rebels hid
from Roman soldiers crushing a Jewish revolt.

The tunnel was built two millennia ago underneath one of Roman-era
Jerusalem's main streets, which today largely lies under an Arab
neighborhood in the city's eastern sector. After a four-year excavation, the
tunnel is part of a growing network of subterranean passages under the
politically combustible modern city.

The tunnel was intended to drain rainwater, but is also thought to have been
used as a hiding place for the rebels during the time of the Second Temple
in Jerusalem. That temple was razed, along with much of the city, by Roman
legionnaires putting down the Jewish uprising in 70 A.D.

On Monday, archaeologists from the Israel Antiquities Authority unveiled a
sword found in the tunnel late last month, measuring 24 inches (60
centimeters) in length and with its leather sheath intact. The sword likely
belonged to a member of the Roman garrison around the time of the revolt,
the archaeologists said.

"We found many things that we assume are linked to the rebels who hid out
here, like oil lamps, cooking pots, objects that people used and took with
them, perhaps, as a souvenir in the hope that they would be going back,"
said Eli Shukron, the Israel Antiquities Authority archaeologist in charge
of the dig.

The archaeologists also found a bronze key from the same era, coins minted
by rebels with the slogan "Freedom of Zion," and a crude carved depiction of
a menorah, a seven-branched Jewish candelabra that was one of the central
features of the Temple.

The flight of the rebels to tunnels like the one currently being excavated
was described by the historian Josephus Flavius, a Jewish rebel general who
shifted his allegiance to Rome during the revolt and penned the most
important history of the uprising.

As the city burned, he wrote about five years afterward, the rebels decided
their "last hope" lay in the tunnels. They planned to wait until the legions
had departed and then emerge and escape.

"But this proved to be an idle dream, for they were not destined to escape
from either God or the Romans," he wrote. The legionnaires tore up the
paving stones above the drainage channels and exposed their hiding place.

"There too were found the bodies of more than two thousand, some slain by
their own hands, some by another's; but most of them died by starvation,"
Josephus wrote. The victors proceeded to loot, he wrote, "for many precious
objects were found in these passages."

The new tunnel, lit by fluorescent bulbs and smelling of damp earth, has
been cleared for much of its length but has not yet been opened to the
public. Earlier this month, a team from The Associated Press walked through
the tunnel from the biblical Pool of Siloam, one of the city's original
water sources, continuing for 600 yards (meters) under the Palestinian
neighborhood named for the pool � Silwan � before climbing out onto a sunlit
Roman-era street inside Jerusalem's Old City.

The tunnel is part of the expanding City of David excavation in Silwan,
which sits above the oldest section of Jerusalem. The dig is named for the
biblical monarch thought to have ruled from the site. It is funded by a
group affiliated with the Jewish settlement movement and has drawn criticism
from Palestinian residents who have charged that the work is disruptive and
politically motivated.

Israel and the Palestinians have conflicting claims over Jerusalem that have
scuttled peace efforts for decades. Both sides claim the Old City, which
includes sites holy to Christians, Muslims and Jews.

The excavation of the tunnel began in 2007. Last month, a worker found a
tiny golden bell that seemed to have been an ornament on the clothing of a
rich man, or possibly a Temple priest, and which could still ring 2,000
years later.

When the tunnel opens to the public sometime in the coming months,
underground passages totaling about a mile (1.6 kilometers) in length will
be accessible beneath Jerusalem. The tunnels have become one of the city's
biggest tourist draws and the number of visitors has risen in recent years
to more than a million in 2010.

The tunnels remain, however, a sensitive political issue. While for Israelis
they are proof of the extent of Jewish roots here, for many Palestinians,
who reject Israel's sovereignty in the east Jerusalem, they are a threat to
their own claims to the city and represent an exaggerated focus on Jewish
history.

The 1996 opening of a new exit to a tunnel underneath the Old City's Muslim
Quarter sparked rumors among Palestinians that Israel meant to damage the
mosque compound, and dozens were killed in the ensuing riots. In recent
years, however, criticism has been muted and work has largely gone ahead
without incident.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85143 From: Cato Date: 2011-08-09
Subject: a.d. V Id. Sext.
Cato omnibus in foro SPD

Hodiernus dies est ante diem V Idus Sextiles; haec dies comitialis est.

"After his infantry was thus routed, and when, from the cloud of dust
which he saw, Pompey conjectured the fate of his cavalry, what
thoughts passed through his mind it were difficult to say; but he was
most like a man bereft of sense and crazed, who had utterly forgotten
that he was Pompey the Great, and without a word to any one, he walked
slowly off to his camp, exemplifying those verses of Homer:

'But Zeus the father, throned on high, in Ajax stirred up fear;
He stood confounded, and behind him cast his shield of seven ox-hides,
And trembled as he peered around upon the throng.' [Homer, Iliad
XI.544]

In such a state of mind he went to his tent and sat down speechless,
until many pursuers burst into the camp with the fugitives; then he
merely ejaculated; 'What! even to my quarters?' and without another
word rose up, took clothing suitable to his present fortune, and made
his escape. The rest of his legions also fled, and there was a great
slaughter in the camp of tent-guards and servants; but only six
thousand soldiers fell, according to Asinius Pollio, who fought in
that battle on the side of Caesar.

When Caesar's troops captured the camp, they beheld the vanity and
folly of the enemy. For every tent was wreathed with myrtle boughs and
decked out with flowered couches and tables loaded with beakers; bowls
of wine were also laid out, and preparation and adornment were those
of men who had sacrificed and were holding festival rather than of men
who were arming themselves for battle. With such infatuated hopes and
such a store of foolish confidence did they go forth to war." -
Plutarch, "Lives", Pompey 72

"But Caesar, when he reached Pompey's ramparts and saw those of the
enemy who were already lying dead there and those who were still
falling, said with a groan: "They would have it so; they brought me to
such a pass that if I, Caius Caesar, after waging successfully the
greatest wars, had dismissed my forces, I should have been condemned
in their courts." Asinius Pollio says that these words, which Caesar
afterwards wrote down in Greek, were uttered by him in Latin at the
time; he also says that most of the slain were servants who were
killed at the taking of the camp, and that not more than six thousand
soldiers fell. Most of those who were taken alive Caesar incorporated
in his legions, and to many men of prominence he granted immunity. One
of these was Brutus, who afterwards slew him. Caesar was distressed,
we are told, when Brutus was not to be found, but when he was brought
into his presence safe and sound, was pleased beyond measure." -
Plutarch, "Lives", Caesar 46

On this day in 48 BC, Julius Caesar defeated Pompey's troops at
Pharsalus, causing Pompey to flee to Egypt.


Today is a celebration in honor of Sol Indiges; there would be a
public sacrifice on the Quirinal hill in honour of the divinity Sol
Indiges. We know that Sol Indiges was some form of the Sun god, but
after that we are in the dark, so to speak. According to Varro, the
Sabine Titus Tatius established (presumably on the Quirinal Hill)
altars for various divinities including Sol (as well as Ops, Flora,
Vediovis, Saturn, Vulcan, Summanus, Larundus, Terminus, Quirinus,
Vortumnus, the Lares, and Diana Lucina). Quintilian says there was a
pulvinar (a couch) dedicated to Sol near the Temple of Quirinus on the
Quirinal, which is probably connected to this ritual somehow.

In regards to the epithet "Indiges", Scullard warns us of the
controversy associated with what it means: "the Indigetes have been
regarded as di minores (gods of limited function)", as 'native' (as
opposed to foreign) gods, or as ancestral gods. That it might refer to
native or ancestral gods is perhaps suggested by the list of
divinities (mentioned above) in which Sol is included. Servius,
commenting on Virgil's Georgics (1.48) doesn't appear to be sure
himself. He tells us that dii indigetes are divinities which were
created from humans; in other words, a sort of Roman/Italian
equivalent to the Greek hero cult. The emperor Heliogabalus later
introduced the cult of Sol Invictus (the Unconquered Sun), whose
festival on ante diem VIII Kalendas Ianuarius (25 December) would be
transformed into the Christian Feast of the Nativity.

Valete bene!

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85144 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2011-08-10
Subject: Responsum Augurum de Auspiciis pro Senatu
When auspices are taken for the commencement of a session of the Senate of
Nova Roma, it is to be understood that the auspices are for the *beginning *of
the proposed session. Once the auspices have been found to be favorable, and
the Senate is convened, any decision to extend the session is a function of
that session itself, and therefore is already covered under the favorable
auspices of the session. Therefore, no new auspices need to be taken in
order to extend session that is already auspicious, if the presiding
magistrate makes a motion that properly (under the rules of the Senate)
extends the duration of the session. A session that is not officially
convened, however, cannot be changed or extended under internal rules, since
it does not officially exist yet. If the particulars of a session need to be
changed before the session is convened, new auspices must be taken for what
is essentially a new session.

Data a Collegio Augurum a.d. IV Idus Sextiles anno A.U.C. MMDCCLXIV
(P.Ullerio C. Equitio coss.)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85145 From: Cato Date: 2011-08-10
Subject: a.d. IV Id. Sext.
Cato omnibus in foro SPD

Hodiernus dies est ante diem IV Idus Sextiles; haec dies comitialis est.

"So then spring is the most salubrious, next after it comes winter;
summer is rather more dangerous than salubrious, autumn is by far the
most dangerous. But as regards weather the best is that which is
settled, whether cold or hot, the worst that which is the most
changeable, and that is why autumn brings down the greatest number.
For generally about midday there is heat, but at night and in the
early morning, cold, as also in the evening. Thus the body, relaxed by
the preceding summer, and now by the midday heat, is caught by the
sudden cold. But while this chiefly occurs at this season, so whenever
the like happens harm is done.

In settled weather fine days are the most salubrious, rainy better
than foggy or cloudy days; and in winter the best days are those in
which there is an entire absence of wind, in summer those in which
westerly winds blow. As for the other winds, the northerly are more
salubrious than those from the sunrising or south; nevertheless, these
vary somewhat according to the character of the district. For almost
everywhere wind when coming from inland is salubrious, and injurious
when from the sea. And not only is health more assured in settled
weather, but pre-existing diseases also, if there have been any, are
milder and more quickly terminated. But the worst weather for the sick
man is that which has p89caused his sickness, so much so that a change
to weather of a naturally worse sort may be, in his condition,
salutary.

The middle period of life is the safest, for it is not disturbed by
the heat of youth, nor by the chill of age. Old age is more exposed to
chronic diseases, youth to acute ones. The square-built frame, neither
thin nor fat, is the fittest; for tallness, as it is graceful in
youth, shrinks in the fulness of age; a thin frame is weak, a fat one
sluggish.

In spring those diseases are usually to be apprehended which are
stirred up anew by movement of humor. Consequently there tend to arise
runnings from the eyes, pustules, haemorrhages, congestions in the
body, which the Greeks call apostemata, black bile which they call
madness, fits,angina, choked nostrils, runnings from the
nose. Also those diseases which affect joints and sinews, being at one
time troublesome, at another quiescent, then especially both begin and
recur.

But summer, while not wholly exempt from most of the foregoing
maladies, adds to them fevers whether continued or ardent or tertian,
vomitings, diarrhoeas, earaches, oral ulcerations, cankers which occur
on other parts but especially upon the pudenda, and whatever exhausts
the patient by sweating.

In autumn there is scarcely one of the foregoing which does not
happen; but at this season in addition there arise irregular fevers,
splenic pain, subcutaneous dropsy, consumption, called by the Greeks
phthisis, urinary difficulty, which they call strangury, the small
intestine malady which they term ileos, the intestinal lubricity which
they call leienteria, hip-pains, fits. Autumn too is a season fatal
to those exhausted by chronic diseases and overwhelmed by the heat
just past, others it weakens by fresh maladies; and it involves some
in very chronic ones, especially quartan fevers, which may last even
through the winter. Nor is any other period of the year more exposed
to pestilence of whatever sort; although it is harmful in a variety of
ways.

Winter provokes headache, coughs, and all the affections which attack
the throat, and the sides of the chest and lungs." - A. Cornelius
Celsus, "On Medicine" II.1-9

Valete bene!

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85146 From: Cato Date: 2011-08-11
Subject: a.d. III Id. Sext.
Cato omnibus in foro SPD

Hodiernus dies est ante diem III Idus Sextiles; hic dies comitialis est.

"Of the various sorts of weather, the north wind excites cough,
irritates the throat, constipates the bowels, suppresses the urine,
excites shiverings, as also pain of the lungs and chest. Nevertheless
it is bracing to a healthy body, rendering it more mobile and brisk.
The south wind dulls hearing, blunts the senses, produces headache,
loosens the bowels; the body as a whole is rendered sluggish, humid,
languid. The other winds, as they approximate to the north or south
wind, produce affections corresponding to the one or other. Moreover,
any hot weather inflates the liver and spleen, and dulls the mind; the
result is that there are faintings, that there is an outburst of
blood. Cold on the other hand brings about: at times tenseness of
sinews which the Greeks call spasmos, at times the rigor which they
call tetanos, the blackening of ulcerations, shiverings in fevers. In
times of drought there arise acute fevers, runnings from the eyes,
dysenteries, urinary difficulty, articular pains. In wet weather there
occur chronic fevers, diarrhoeas, angina, canker, fits, and the
loosening of sinews which the Greeks call paralysis. Not only does
the weather of the day but also of the preceding days matter. If a dry
winter has been accompanied by north winds, or again a spring by south
winds and rain, generally there ensue runnings from the eye,
dysenteries, fevers, and most of all in more delicate bodies, hence
especially in women. If on the other hand south winds and rain have
prevailed during winter, and the spring is cold and dry, pregnant
women near their confinement are in danger of miscarrying; those
indeed who reach term, give birth only to weaklings hardly alive.
Other people are attacked by dry ophthalmia, and if elderly by choked
nostrils and runnings from the nose. But when the south wind prevails
from the beginning of winter to the end of spring, side pains, also
the insanity of those in fever which is called phrenesis, are very
rapidly fatal. And when hot weather begins in the spring, and lasts
through the summer, severe sweating must ensue in cases of fever. If a
summer has been kept dry by northerly winds, but in the autumn there
are showers and south winds, there may then arise cough, runnings from
the nose, hoarseness, and indeed in some, consumption. But if the
autumn is dry owing to a north wind continuing to blow, all those with
more delicate bodies, among whom, as I have mentioned, are women,
enjoy good health. The harder constitutions, however, may possibly be
attacked by dry ophthalmias, and by fevers, some acute, some chronic,
also by those maladies which arise from black bile." - A. Cornelius
Celsus, "On Medicine" II.10-16

Valete bene!

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85147 From: Sabinus Date: 2011-08-12
Subject: Edictum censoris T. Iuli Sabini centuriatim tributimque.
Edictum censoris T. Iuli Sabini centuriatim tributimque.

1. In concordance with lex Octavia altera de comitiis centuriatis the number of Nova Roma's centuries for the current time is determined to 51 and divided in V classes as follow:
- class I – 15 centuries (I – XV).
- class II – 12 centuries (XVI – XXVII).
- class III – 10 centuries (XXVIII – XXXVII).
- class IV – 8 centuries (XXXVIII – XLV).
- class V – 6 centuries (XLVI – L) + 1 century reserved for capite censi (LI).

2. In concordance with lex Vedia centuriata point II completed by lex Fabia centuriata point II, Nova Roma's citizens are assigned to the centuries based of their record of public service.
Based of lex Vedia modified by lex Apula de assidui et capite censi point III.A, capite censi citizens are placed in the last century in class V (century LI).

3. In concordance with Nova Roman Constitution point E.II completed with lex Vedia tributaria the number of Nova Roma tribes is 35 divided as follow:
- rural tribes (I – XXXI).
- urban tribes (XXXII – XXXV).
Based of lex Vedia modified by Apula de assidui et capite censi point III.B, capite censi citizens are placed in the urban tribes (XXXII – XXXV).

4. Nova Roma's citizens were assigned in tribes and centuries. The censorial office can modify the assignment if the situation requires that, respecting the laws and other legal or official documents.

Given under my hand this 12th day of Sextilis 2764 a.U.c. in the consulship of P. Ullerius and C. Equitius coss.

T. Iulius Sabinus
Censor.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85148 From: Cato Date: 2011-08-12
Subject: prid. Id. Sext.
Cato omnibus in foro SPD

Hodiernus dies est pridie Idus Sextiles; haec dies comitialis est.

"Hermes, Herakles and Theseus, who are honoured in the gymnasium and
wrestling-ground according to a practice universal among Greeks, and
now common among barbarians." - Pausanias, Guide to Greece 4.32.1

"In Greece they worship a number of deified human beings ... Palaemon
throughout the whole of Greece, as also Hercules, Aesculapius, the
sons of Tyndareus." - Cicero, De Natura Deorum 3.15

Today is the Festival of Heracles (or Herakles or Hercules). Heracles
was a divine hero, the son of Zeus and Alcmene, stepson of Amphitryon
and great-grandson of Perseus. He was the greatest of the Greek
heroes, a paragon of masculinity, the ancestor of royal clans and a
champion of the Olympian order against a multitude of monsters. In
Rome and the modern West, he is known as Hercules, with whom the later
Roman Emperors, in particular Commodus and Maximinus, often identified
themselves. The Romans adopted the Greek version of his life and works
essentially unchanged, but added anecdotal detail of their own, some
of it linking the hero with the geography of the Western
Mediterranean.

Extraordinary strength, courage, ingenuity, and sexual prowess with
both males and females were among his characteristic attributes.
Together with Hermes he was the patron and protector of gymnasia and
palaestrae. His iconographic attributes are the lion skin and the
club. These qualities did not prevent him from being regarded as a
playful figure who used games to relax from his labors and played a
great deal with children. By conquering dangerous archaic forces he is
said to have "made the world safe for mankind" and to be its
benefactor (Aelian, Varia Historia 5.3).

A major factor in the well-known tragedies surrounding Heracles is the
hatred that the goddess Hera, wife of Zeus, had for him. A full
account of Heracles must render it clear why Hercules was so tormented
by Hera, when there are many illegitimate offspring sired by Zeus.
Heracles was the fruit of the affair Zeus had with the mortal woman
Alcmene. Zeus made love to her after disguising himself as her
husband, Amphitryon, home early from war. (Amphitryon did return later
the same night, and Alcmene became pregnant with his son at the same
time, a case of superfetation, where a woman carries twins sired by
different fathers. Thus, Heracles' very existence proved at least one
of Zeus's many illicit affairs, and Hera often conspired against
Zeus's mortal offspring, as revenge for her husband's infidelities.

On the night the twins only sharing the same mother were to be born,
Hera, knowing of her husband Zeus's adultery, persuaded Zeus to swear
an oath that the child born that night to a member of the House of
Perseus would be High King. Once the oath was sworn, Hera hurried to
Alcmene's dwelling and slowed the birth by sitting crosslegged with
her clothing tied in knots. Meanwhile, she caused another boy
Eurystheus to be born prematurely, making him High King in place of
Heracles. She would have permanently delayed Heracles' birth had she
not been foiled by Galanthis, her servant, who lied to her that she
had already delivered the baby. Upon hearing this Hera jumped in
surprise, therefore untying the knots and finally allowing Alcmene to
give birth. The child was originally given the name Alcides by his
parents; it was only later on that he became known as Heracles.

One of the boys, Iphicles, was Amphitryon's son and a mortal, while
the other was the demi-god Heracles. Heracles was named in an
unsuccessful attempt to mollify Hera. A few months after he was born,
Hera sent two serpents to kill him as he lay in his cot. Heracles
throttled a snake in each hand and was found by his nurse playing with
their limp bodies as if they were child's toys.

After killing his music tutor with a lute, he was sent to tend cattle
on a mountain by his foster father Amphitryon. Here, he was visited by
two nymphs - Pleasure and Virtue - who offered him a choice between a
pleasant and easy life or a severe but glorious life. He chose the
latter. One of Hercules' challenges was put to him by King Thespius of
Thespia who wished him to impregnate each of his 50 daughters.
According to the legend, Hercules did this in one night.

Later in Thebes, Heracles married King Creon's daughter, Megara.
However, Hera drove Hercules into a fit of madness during which he
killed his wife and children. Upon realizing what he had done, he fled
to the Oracle of Delphi. Unbeknownst to him, the Oracle was guided by
Hera. He was directed to serve King Eurystheus for 12 years and
perform any task which he required, resulting in The Twelve Labors of
Hercules.

After completing these tasks, Hercules joined the Argonauts in the
search of the Golden Fleece. They rescued heroines, conquered Troy,
and helped the gods fight against the Gigantes. He also fell in love
with Princess Iole of Oechalia. Hercules' advances were spurned by the
king and his sons, except for one - Iole's brother Iphitus. Iphitus
became Heracles best friend. But once again, Hera drove Hercules mad
and he threw Iphitus over the city wall to his death. Once again,
Hercules purified himself through servitude - this time to Queen
Omphale of Lydia.

While walking through the wilderness, Heracles was set upon by the
Dryopians. He killed their king, Theiodamas, and the others gave up
and offered him Prince Hylas. He took the youth on as his weapons
bearer and beloved. Years later, Heracles and Hylas joined the crew of
the Argo. As Argonauts they only participated in part of the journey.
In Mysia, Hylas was kidnapped by a nymph. Heracles, heartbroken,
searched for a long time but Hylas had fallen in love with the nymphs
and never showed up again. The ship set sail without them.

During the course of his life, Heracles married three times. His first
marriage was to Megara, whose three children he murdered in a fit of
madness and whom he later gave in marriage to his beloved Iolaus,
because the sight of her was too painful. His second wife was Omphale,
the Lydian queen or princess to whom he was delivered as a slave.

His last marriage was to Deianira, for whom he had to fight the river
god Achelous. (Upon Achelous' death, Heracles removed one of his horns
and gave it to some nymphs who turned it into the cornucopia.) Soon
after they wed, Heracles and Deianira had to cross a river, and a
centaur named Nessus offered to help Deianeira across but then
attempted to rape her. Enraged, Heracles shot the centaur from the
opposite shore with a poisoned arrow (tipped with the Lernean Hydra's
blood) and killed him. As he lay dying, Nessus plotted revenge and
told Deianira to gather up his blood and spilled semen and, if she
ever wanted to make prevent Heracles from having affairs with other
women, she should apply them to his vestments. Nessus knew that his
blood had become tainted by the poisonous blood of the Hydra, and
would burn through the skin of anyone it touched.

Later, when Deianira suspected that Heracles was fond of Iole, she
soaked a shirt of his in the mixture. Heracles' servant, Lichas,
brought him the shirt and he put it on. Instantly he was in agony, the
cloth burning into him. As he tried to remove it the flesh ripped from
his bones. Heracles chose a voluntary death, asking that a pyre be
built for him to end his suffering. After death the gods transformed
him into an immortal, or alternatively, the fire burned away the
mortal part of the demi-god, so that only the god remained. Because
his mortal parts had been incinerated, he could now become a full god
and join his father and the other Olympians on Mount Olympus. He then
married Hebe.

No one but Heracles' friend Philoctetes (in some versions: Iolaus or
Poeas) would light his funeral pyre. For this action, Philoctetes (or
Poeas) received Heracles' bow and arrows, which were later needed by
the Greeks to defeat Troy in the Trojan War. Philoctetes confronted
Paris and shot a poisoned arrow at him. The Hydra poison would
subsequently lead to the death of Paris.

Another episode of his female affairs that stands out was his stay at
the palace of King Thespios, who encouraged Heracles to make love to
his daughters, all fifty of them, in one night. They all got pregnant
and all bore sons. Many of the kings of ancient Greece traced their
lines to one or another of these, notably the kings of Sparta and
Macedon.

As paragon of masculinity and warriorship, Heracles also had a number
of male lovers. Plutarch, in his Erotikos, maintains that Heracles'
eromenoi (male lovers) were beyond counting. Of these, the one most
closely linked to Heracles is the Theban Iolaus. Their story, an
initiatory myth thought to be of ancient origin, contains many of the
elements of the Greek pederastic apprenticeship in which the older
warrior is the educator and the younger his helper in battle. Thus
Iolaus is Heracles' charioteer and squire. Also in keeping with the
initiatory pattern of the relationship, Heracles in the end gives his
pupil a wife, symbolizing his entry into adulthood. Iolaus' ritual
functions parallelled his relationship with Heracles. He was a patron
of male love — Plutarch reports that down to his own time male couples
would go to Iolaus' tomb in Thebes to swear an oath of loyalty to the
hero and to each other (Plutarch, Erotikos 761d) — and he presided
over initiations in the historical era, such as the one at Agyrion in
central Sicily. The tomb of Iolaus is also mentioned by Pindar
(Pindar, Olympian Odes 9.98-99). Another such story is the one of his
love for Nireus, who was "the most beautiful man who came beneath
Ilion" (Iliad, 673). Ptolemy adds that certain authors made Nireus out
to be a son of Heracles, a fact thought to authenticate this tradition
(Ptolemaeus Chennus, in Photius' "Bibliotheca" 147b).

Valete bene!

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85149 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2011-08-12
Subject: awesome blog & podcast - Ancient Rome Refocused!
Salvete omnes! I recently ran across a fascinating blog and
accompanying podcast called "Ancient Rome Refocused," by a man named Rob
Cain. "Ancient Rome Refocused is a blog about ancient Rome, with special
emphasis on the impact Roma Antiqua had and continues to have on the modern
world, especially the United States. For anyone interested, check out:

http://www.ancientromerefocused.org/

and, if you're on Facebook,

http://www.facebook.com/groups/107933009237586/

I'm working on arranging for him to do a show, or even a series, about
Nova Roma. I would encourage all Nova Romans to follow this blog!

Valete!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85150 From: C.Maria Caeca Date: 2011-08-12
Subject: Re: awesome blog & podcast - Ancient Rome Refocused!
C. Maria Caeca C. Tullio Valeriano S. P. D.

thank you for sending this! I tried to find the link to the blog and podcast on the Facebook group site, and couldn't. Now, I've got it!

Vale bene!
CMC

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85151 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2011-08-13
Subject: Re: awesome blog & podcast - Ancient Rome Refocused!
C. Petronius Dexter eis qui in hoc vacuo Foro spatiari solent salutem dicit,

"Ancient Rome Refocused is a blog about ancient Rome, with special emphasis on the impact Roma Antiqua had and continues to have on the modern world, especially the United States."

Ancient Rome is an other world and we have nothing which continues in the modern world the ancient Rome. Nothing politics, nothing economics, nothing social... nothing in our modern life continued the ancient Rome into our modern world, even our minds.

You may read about that the interesting book of Aldo Schiavone. "La storia spezzata. Roma antica e Occidente moderno."

Do not forget that our modern world rose around the centuries XIII and XIV in Italy and for those Italians giving birth to the modern world, as Dante Alighieri, Niccolo Machiavelli..., the ancient Rome was a subject of studies, with a lot of errors, not at all an inheritance nor a continuity.

Optime valete in otio vestro.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
Idibus Sextilibus P. Vllerio C. Equitio coss.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85152 From: Cato Date: 2011-08-13
Subject: IDUS SEXTILIBUS
Cato omnibus in foro SPD

Hodiernus dies est Idus Sextilibus; hic dies nefastus publicus est.

"That god, Vertumnus, whose name fits many forms,
Wasn't yet so-called from damning back the river (averso amne)." -
Ovid, Fasti VI

"It is for me [Vertumnus] that the first grape darkens on the purpling
cluster, and the spiky corn-ear swells with milky grain; at my feet
you see sweet cherries, at my feet autumn plums and the mulberry
blushing in the summertime...[m]y nature suits any role: turn me to
which you wish, and I shall fit it well." - Propertius, Elegies 4.2



Today is the celebration of the Vertumnalia, dedicated to the god
Vertumnus. Vertumnus is the Roman divinity of seasons, changes and
ripening of plant life. He is the patron of gardens and fruit trees.
He has the power to change himself into various forms, and used this
to gain the favor of the goddess Pomona - in Ovid's "Metamorphoses",
he tricked Pomona into talking to him by disguising himself as an old
woman and gaining entry to her orchard, then eventually convincing her
into marrying him. Vertumnus' cult was introduced in Rome around 300
BC and a temple was built on the Aventine Hill in 264 BC. A statue of
Vertumnus stood at the Vicus Tuscus.


"Bear me, Pomona, to thy citron groves,
To where the lemon and the piercing lime,
With the deep orange, glowing through the green,
Their lighter glories blend. Lay me reclined
Beneath the spreading tamarind, that shakes,
Fanned by the breeze, its fever-cooling fruit." - Thompson

Vertumnus' close association with Pomonoa gives her a place in today's
festivities as well. Pomona is the Roman goddess of fruiting trees
and orchards. She watches over and protects fruit trees and cares for
their cultivation, and in fact Her name is from the Latin pomum,
fruit. She is an expert in pruning and grafting, and was so absorbed
in this labor of love that she turned away many suitors, including
Priapus and Silenus, who was part of the entourage of Dionysos. But
Vertumnus, the God of gardens and orchards, persisted, and finally won
her by appearing to her in his own true beauty.

Pomona and Her husband Vertumnus were listed among the Numina, or
guardian spirits of Roman mythology, who watched over people or over
aspects of the home or fields, in their case, of course, orchards and
gardens. She had her own priest in Rome, the Flamen Pomonalis, and a
grove sacred to her called the Pomonal was located not far from Ostia,
the old port of Rome.

Valete bene!

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85153 From: Q Caecilius Metellus Date: 2011-08-13
Subject: Nundinal Calendar XX: Id Sex through XII Kal Sep
Q Caecilius Metellus pontifex Quiritibus salutem plurimam dicit.

Saluete, Quirites.

It is that time again! What follows is the nundinal calendar for
the twentieth full nundinum of the current sacral year, beginning 13
August 2011 and continuing through 21 August 2011. Any questions had
will be gladly answered.

This nundinum consists of the following nine days:

- 13 Aug 2011 (Id. Sex.): the day is nefastus publicus.
- 14 Aug 2011 (a.d. XIX Kal. Sep.): the day is fastus, and ater.
- 15 Aug 2011 (a.d. XVIII Kal. Sep.): the day is comitialis.
- 16 Aug 2011 (a.d. XVII Kal. Sep.): the day is comitialis.
- 17 Aug 2011 (a.d. XVI Kal. Sep.): the day is nefastus publicus.
- 18 Aug 2011 (a.d. XV Kal. Sep.): the day is comitialis.
- 19 Aug 2011 (a.d. XIV Kal. Sep.): the day is of the most uncertain
character (FP); it may be treated as nefastus (publicus).
- 20 Aug 2011 (a.d. XIII Kal. Sep.): the day is comitialis.
- 21 Aug 2011 (a.d. XII Kal. Sep.): the day is nefastus publicus.

This nundinum is host to a number of observances from the fasti of
Antiquity. We begin with the Feriae Ioui, as are all Ides, on which a
sacrifice was made to Iuppiter. Next, to the deity Portunus (for whom
there is the flamen Portunalis), is the Portunalia, on the sixteenth
day before the Kalends. Thereafter, we are greeted with the Vinalia
Rustica, on the fourteenth day preceeding the Kalends. Last of the
nundinum, on the twelfth day preceeding the Kalends, is the Consualia,
to Consus, granariorum curator.

Regarding the dies FP, there is significant uncertainty. Unfortunately,
to date, no definitive explanation has been given for the actual
meaning of the character. Three theories prevail, and have for some
time. The first is, by analogy with N[efastus] P[ublicus], that the
letters are for F[astus] P[ublicus], though doubt is cast on this
theory in analysis of what, precisely, the 'publicus' might mean, and
its impact on Roman life and society. The second, F[astus] P[rincipio]
(i.e., 'fastus in the beginning'), is doubted on, among other things,
the grounds that it would not seem sensible given the aforementioned
analogy; as well, doubt has been cast on it in inquiring as to what the
nature of the remainder of the day might have been, as well as in
inquiring as to why, specifically, the early part of the day was
required to be fastus while the remainder could be otherwise. The
third, F[astus] P[urus], may be doubted on inquiry as to why, again,
this type of fastus was to be particularly pure, and what, again, that
purity meant and entailed (as well as the issue of the earlier
mentioned analogy, an often-quoted reason for doubt of theories other
than F[astus] P[ublicus]). Given the uncertainty, it seems most
fitting to adhere to the most restrictive known character, nefastus
publicus, in the treatment of the day, for which reason the Collegium
Pontificum of 2759 gave that such days should so be treated.

Romani pietatis exemplum sint.

Eidibus Sextilibus
Lauini, Arizonae scr.
P Ullerio C Equitio coss.

--
When all other means of communication fail, try words.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85154 From: Timothy or Stephen Gallagher Date: 2011-08-13
Subject: Re: awesome blog & podcast - Ancient Rome Refocused!
Salvete,

�not at all an inheritance nor a continuity.�

Dexter I am sorry but I will have to disagree with you.

We are as much the heirs of Rome as we are the Italians and other European who came after them. It is said that English is a Germanic language but half or nearly half of its words come from Latin. The major languages of Europe, Italian, Spanish, French, Rumanian, and Portuguese are all derived from Latin. If this is not continuity it is most assuredly an inheritance.

As an example here are forty words from English that are Latin in origin.

Ambulatory amicable animate annual aquatic auditorium aviation calorie Carnivore casual circumference colossal consul contemporary corporation deity domination egotist Equinox fatuous fortify function inhabit legion linguistics lunatic manual medieval neutral normal Oratorical paternity plebeian ridiculous scientific senate sinuous territory vacant and verbatim.

A large number of terms and phrases used in law derive from Latin and Roman legal traditions. Stare decisis, Pro Bono, Writ of Habeas Corpus , just to name three.

Is not the Napoleonic Code more Roman then French? In terms of titles Tsar and Kaiser are literal translations of Caesar.

In terms of military organization EVERY modern army patterns its organization on those of Rome. Without knowledge of the reforms of Marius there would be no modern armies or at least none that could organize.

While some major portions of Roman civilization have not survived into the modern world a great deal has at least influenced it.

The American founding fathers were more than well read in ancient, mostly Roman sources. They chose the Roman republic as an example when he set up the American government under the Federal constitution. Many things were borrowed from the Romans and given a decided American twist.
The Roman VETO was placed in the hands of a single administrator. Unlike the Roman one which was wheeled by a number of magistrates. While the Roman veto was absolute in some areas the American veto was designed to be overridden. The ancient Roman senate was recreated in an American image but which shared some of the Romans Senate areas of influence and expertise ie foreign policy and treaty�s.

For good or ill the legacy of Rome carried on well past the middle ages in the form of European nation states. Almost every major and most minor European state has their origin, if not their actual geography from the time they spend as a province or territory of Rome. Most European cities and some others around the word still bear evidence of the most manifest and outwardly influence of Rome on the modern world, Architecture. In terms of architecture alone Washington DC IS Rome on the Potomac.

Even today and for some time as America has experience more and more economic problems the phrase that is heard most is America going into decline?
Will it fall like Rome?

Dexter I am sorry but we are for good or ill the heirs of Rome both the good and the bad. You can read

The Inheritance of Rome: A History of Europe from 400 to 1000 by Chris Wickham

Vale

Ti. Galerius Paulinus





To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
From: jfarnoud94@...
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 10:23:58 +0000
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: awesome blog & podcast - Ancient Rome Refocused!






C. Petronius Dexter eis qui in hoc vacuo Foro spatiari solent salutem dicit,

"Ancient Rome Refocused is a blog about ancient Rome, with special emphasis on the impact Roma Antiqua had and continues to have on the modern world, especially the United States."

Ancient Rome is an other world and we have nothing which continues in the modern world the ancient Rome. Nothing politics, nothing economics, nothing social... nothing in our modern life continued the ancient Rome into our modern world, even our minds.

You may read about that the interesting book of Aldo Schiavone. "La storia spezzata. Roma antica e Occidente moderno."

Do not forget that our modern world rose around the centuries XIII and XIV in Italy and for those Italians giving birth to the modern world, as Dante Alighieri, Niccolo Machiavelli..., the ancient Rome was a subject of studies, with a lot of errors, not at all an inheritance nor a continuity.

Optime valete in otio vestro.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
Idibus Sextilibus P. Vllerio C. Equitio coss.






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85155 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2011-08-14
Subject: Re: awesome blog & podcast - Ancient Rome Refocused!
C. Petronius Ti. Paulino s.p.d.,

> Dexter I am sorry but I will have to disagree with you.

You have the right to disagree with me and also to dream, of course, but the modern societies are not the heirs of the Ancient Rome.

> We are as much the heirs of Rome as we are the Italians and other European who came after them.

Speaking about civilizations, an heir is not the new lander but this who keeps and passes the Lares and the Penates of his ancestors. As Aeneas coming in Italy with the Palladium and the sacred things of Troy was more Troian than a modern Roman is an heir of an ancient Roman.

American people in its majority is heir of european people even if he is living on the lands of the Red Skins. He accrosses the sea with european languages, religions and customs. As Æneas did.

I am living in France, my ancestors did not make any migrant travel, my oldest ancestors known were living in France, in the Realm of Louis XV, but I know that I am not the heir of the Gauls, the Romans or the Franks. Even if in my blood, I certainly have Gallic, Roman and Frank parts, but I need a museum guide to explain me the few things yet known about the Gallic religion, the language of "my" Gallic ancestors is very dead, Latin in comparison is alive, and so on. The Gauls are such near to me as the Apaches of Cochise, I need a museum guide to know them.

And about the Roman civilization I bet that if you return one minute at Rome, during a speech of Cicero, you will be afraid, you will be scared, and you will want to come back into your modern comfort. It is not easy to live as a slave, I presume. More than 30% men and women living in Rome were slaves and as after your arrival on the city nobody knows you, soon you will become a slave or dead.

Imagine a world with people crucified at the gates, every morning, a world in which a master jump in his slaves with a stick every time and more if he wants to get fun... you will be horrified. The law of the mighter in its whole bareness. The life of a slave being nothing, the master may kill his slave in a badtempered gesture, it is an accident. Etc.

We are not the heir of this society at all.

Optime vale in otio tuo.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
a. d. XIX Kalendas Septembres P. Vllerio C. Equitio coss.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85156 From: Timothy or Stephen Gallagher Date: 2011-08-14
Subject: FW: [Explorator] explorator 14.17
fyi




To: explorator@yahoogroups.com; BRITARCH@...
From: rogueclassicist@...
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 09:14:01 -0400
Subject: [Explorator] explorator 14.17






================================================================
explorator 14.17 August 14, 2011
================================================================
Editor's note: Most urls should be active for at least eight
hours from the time of publication.

For your computer's protection, Explorator is sent in plain text
and NEVER has attachments. Be suspicious of any Explorator which
arrives otherwise!!!

================================================================
================================================================
Thanks to Arthur Shippee, Dave Sowdon, Kris Curry, Donald Whitcomb,
David Critchley, Tim Parkin, Diana Wright, Dorothy Lobel King,
Donna Hurst, Jennifer Cosham, Edward Rockstein, Joseph Shaffer,
Rick Heli, Hernan Astudillo, Richsc, Joanne Conman,
Kurt Theis, John McMahon, Barnea Selavan, Joseph Lauer,
Mike Ruggeri, Richard Campbell, Richard C. Griffiths,
and Ross W. Sargent for headses upses this week (as always
hoping I have left no one out).
================================================================
EARLY HUMANS
================================================================
Latest on homo floresiensis:

http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110808/full/news.2011.466.html
http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/333112/title/Taking_the_measure_of_a_hobbit

... semi related:

http://www.livescience.com/15523-john-mccain-meet-real-hobbits.html

Feature on the DNA we got from our Neanderthal (and other) forebears:

http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110809/full/476136a.html
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/08/the-hunt-for-ancient-dna/

Latest coverage on finds from Georgia challenging the 'out of Africa'
theory:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-08-08/caveman-zezva-has-1-8-million-year-grin-forces-georgia-to-rewrite-history.html

... I"m not sure the previous item is referring to the Denisovans or not
(I'm getting a bit confused):

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21128254.000-stone-age-toe-could-redraw-human-family-tree.html
================================================================
AFRICA
================================================================
More on that palace from the Sudan:

http://news.yahoo.com/remains-ancient-palace-discovered-121203796.html

================================================================
ANCIENT NEAR EAST AND EGYPT
================================================================
The Tayinat Archaeological Project folks have unearthed the remains of a
monumental
lion gate:

http://www.news.utoronto.ca/social-sciences-business-law/u-of-t-archeologists-uncover-3000-year-old-lion.html
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/08/110809104309.htm
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2011-08/uot-au3080911.php
http://esciencenews.com/articles/2011/08/09/archaeologists.uncover.3000.year.old.lion.adorning.citadel.gate.complex.turkey
http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-08-archaeologists-uncover-year-old-lion-adorning.html

Keep up with the Tell es-Safi/Gath excavations (a lot happened this week):

http://gath.wordpress.com/

The Jericho Mafjar Project has a website:

http://www.jerichomafjarproject.org/

A cartouche of Apries from the Tal Defna area:

http://www.almasryalyoum.com/en/node/484815

Jomon period (?) artifacts from Damascus:

http://www.dp-news.com/en/detail.aspx?articleid=92604

Interesting items (Roman sword, image of a menorah), possibly dating to the
Jewish Revolt,
from an ancient drainage tunnel in Jerusalem:

http://www.antiquities.org.il/about_eng.asp?Modul_id=14
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/146499
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/israeli-archaeologists-present-ancient-artifacts-found-in-jerusalem-tunnel-1.377614
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/History/Early+History+-+Archaeology/Artifacts_destruction_Temple_8-Aug-2011.htm
http://www.artdaily.org/index.asp?int_sec=2&int_new=49696
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkeSSRFveM4
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jvWgyWvlYHXUl4Z73GqE32BGNpHw?docId=417d2e3365f042fa837a593dd201bc1e
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gYBkIhHMSqoq9SQxhZBU6boXc-GA?docId=CNG.32c732cf1e90321ab700d5c1ff2bb1cd.391
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/Culture/Art/2011/Aug-12/Archaeologists-link-ancient-sword-to-fall-of-Herods-temple.ashx
http://news.discovery.com/history/roman-era-sword-110810.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/8689595/Jerusalem-tunnel-contains-2000-year-old-sword-pots-and-coins.html
http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/insideisrael/2011/August/Archaeologists-Discover-Roman-Era-Sword/
http://www.upi.com/Science_News/2011/08/09/Roman-sword-menorah-engraving-found/UPI-29151312889225/?dailybrief
http://news.yahoo.com/jerusalem-tunnel-glimpse-ancient-war-111649346.html
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4106700,00.html
http://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/In-a-Jerusalem-tunnel-a-glimpse-of-an-ancient-war-1764386.php
http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat.html?func=view&catid=17&id=293564 (images)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle-east/in-an-ancient-jerusalem-drainage-tunnel-remains-from-a-2000-year-old-war/2011/08/08/gIQAXqU71I_story.html
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/08/08/israel.artifacts/

Tyre is fighting to keep its World Heritage Status:

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Local-News/2011/Aug-11/Tyre-tries-to-defend-World-Heritage-status.ashx

There is funding for the restoration of Zoser's pyramid:

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/Culture/Travel-and-Tourism/2011/Aug-08/Committee-to-fund-Zoser-pyramid-renovation.ashx

The Bible Project is being given different spins (in headlines, at least):

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/08/12/bible-detectives-jerusalem-scholars-trace-bibles-evolution/
http://www.newser.com/article/d9p2f4s80/in-jerusalem-5-decades-of-detective-work-trace-evolution-discover-changes-in-old-testament.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44117239/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5itVOexAUQyzm63cPPJabqJgexpHw?docId=6af926e599c0480daf772f95786ad395

Another illegal construction site about to get under way in Jerusalem?:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/146639

We are told that Jewish archaeologists are 'contesting' Jewish ties to
Jerusalem:

http://www.palestine-info.co.uk/En/default.aspx?xyz=U6Qq7k%2bcOd87MDI46m9rUxJEpMO%2bi1s7iPBlfG0HELPl1bLBC3jEHfEfncxWsut8Wiq59wubt82e5pc512RN%2bKKN383fDtiO1eOJ75vLXXiNrOxQRkcY4B3aPKLUEYBtns%2b7%2frwEPyY%3d
cf: http://www.forward.com/articles/137273/

Egyptology News Blog:

http://egyptology.blogspot.com/

Egyptology Blog:

http://www.egyptologyblog.co.uk/

Dr Leen Ritmeyer's Blog:

http://blog.ritmeyer.com/

Paleojudaica:

http://paleojudaica.blogspot.com/

Persepolis Fortification Archives:

http://persepolistablets.blogspot.com/

Archaeologist at Large:

http://spaces.msn.com/members/ArchaeologyinEgypt/
================================================================
ANCIENT GREECE AND ROME (AND CLASSICS)
================================================================
Five Thracian tombs from northeastern Bulgaria:

http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=131075

A horde of coins from off the shores of Pantelleria:

http://news.discovery.com/history/punic-coins-retrieved-110812.html

A Roman child burial from Dorchester:

http://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/news/9187166.Roman_child_s_remains_dug_up_in_Dorchester/

Not sure if we've mentioned these recent finds from Serdica:

http://paper.standartnews.com/en/article.php?d=2011-08-13&article=37011

Vladimir Putin went diving at Phanagoria and brought up
a couple of broken amphorae (!) ... such an archaeologist!:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/11/putin-scuba-diving-russia-atlantis-_n_924300.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/aug/12/vladimir-putin-greek-urns-ridicule
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/8695956/Vladimir-Putin-goes-diving-in-the-Black-Sea.html
http://en.rian.ru/video/20110811/165707271.html
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jBLQxkmJApzgc6aTsZj8J9oc5JBw?docId=CNG.89b3c13baf8dcf2c4895a7fb620f18d0.6d1
http://www.smh.com.au/world/the-russian-pm-must-be-putin-it-on-with-this-stunt-20110813-1is27.html

Big crackdown on phoney gladiators -- er, centurions -- outside the
Colosseum:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jzyOb6dP4Etmq-b53adOjOGIC0CA?docId=149a23dcca5f49898b7a6aac7221ff18
http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2011/08/12/general-eu-odd-italy-gladiators-busted_8620497.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44117037/ns/world_news-europe/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-europe-14503878
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/police-in-italy-unleash-hell-on-fake-gladiators/story-e6frg6so-1226113674328
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/travel/news/italian-police-pose-as-gladiators-to-catch-criminals/story-e6frg8ro-1226113608837
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/aug/11/roman-gladiators-arrested-swordfight-colosseum
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iKeYgVIVmDuh8or5ar3LdtD3l45w?docId=CNG.bcc175a221e675aba87f38e758d9b014.481
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,15314290,00.html

... there was a bomb scare there as well; no one seems to be connecting the
above to that:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/07/us-italy-colosseum-bomb-idUSTRE7761PA20110807
http://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/Report-Colosseum-evacuated-after-device-found-1752061.php
http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2011/08/07/general-eu-italy-colosseum-suspicious-package_8606861.html

Someone got the date (year) of the 2500th anniversary of Marathon right:

http://www.skyandtelescope.com/news/127602348.html

Latest in the search for Cleo's tomb (such as it is):

http://www.dominicantoday.com/dr/local/2011/8/10/40538/Dominican-archaeologist-continues-attracting-glances-of-the-worlds

They're poking around the wreck of the Mentor (which carried the
Elgin/Parthenon Marbles):

http://greece.greekreporter.com/2011/08/10/research-on-the-shipwreck-mentor-which-carried-elgin-marbles/
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-08-08/team-explores-19th-century-parthenon-marble-shipwreck-in-greece.html

Feature on the role of rivers in ancient Athens:

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite4_15999_14/08/2011_370823

They're hoping to find more fragments of the Severan Marble Plan during
metro
contstruction:

http://news.discovery.com/history/ancient-roman-map-puzzle-may-get-new-pieces.html

On the Ars Amatoria:

http://www.ilab.org/eng/documentation/601-the_longest_banned_book.html

... and a feature on Diane Middlebrook, who was working on a bio of Ovid
when
she passed:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/12/narrative-magazine-friday_n_924924.html

On Socrates as Islamic prophet:

http://www.ibna.ir/vdcb0fb8wrhb8fp.4eur.html

Review of Gregory McNamee's translation of Aelian:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/books/book-review-on-the-nature-of-animals-by-aelian/2011/08/01/gIQADt4Q9I_story.html

Review of Aloys Winterling, *Caligula*:

http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20110811/BLOG5201/110809967

Reivew of Anneliese Freisenbruch, *First Ladies of Rome*:

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/reviews/the-first-ladies-of-rome-the-women-behind-the-caesars-by-anneliese-freisenbruch-2337180.html

More on the Yewden 'brothel':

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14401305

Latest reviews from Scholia:

http://www.classics.ukzn.ac.za/reviews/

Latest reviews from BMCR:

http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/recent.html

Visit our blog:

http://rogueclassicism.com/
================================================================
EUROPE AND THE UK (+ Ireland)
================================================================
A 25 000 years b.p. 'pendant' from Spain's Basque region:

http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/entertainment/2011/08/10/archaeologists-uncover-25000-year-old-pendant-in-spain/

Remains of a 2600 years b.p. wall from Saxony-Anhalt:

http://www.thelocal.de/sci-tech/20110808-36825.html

A bog body from a County Laois bog in Ireland:

http://www.irishweatheronline.com/news/earth-science/archaeology/2000-yr-old-bog-body-discovered-in-ireland/31582.html

From Salme comes evidence of the oldest use (ca 750) of sails in the Baltic
region:

http://news.err.ee/culture/00225c4a-581e-4ee0-b87c-6fda799a5476

Somewhat vague item on the discovery of a burial cist on the Isle of Skye:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-14509160

Remains of St Eburg found beneath a block of flats?:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2025127/Patron-saint-flats-Remains-St-Eburg-discovered-apartment-block.html

Remains of English Civil War 'casualties' from the grounds of the Pontefract
General Infirmary:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-14476817

Finds from various periods at the Ribat de Arrifana (Portugal):

http://www.theportugalnews.com/cgi-bin/article.pl?id=1125-31

I think we had this Viking massacre stuff last year ... now it's tv hype
masquerading
as 'news':

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14476039

The Uley Long Barrow site in Gloucestershire is open after restoration work:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-14442631

Archaeology in Europe Blog:

http://archaeology-in-europe.blogspot.com/

================================================================
ASIA AND THE SOUTH PACIFIC
================================================================
I think this item on finds from Dikranagerd (Armenia) should be in
this category (please correct me if I'm wrong ... it seems we'll be
hearing more from this one):

http://www.armenianweekly.com/2011/08/10/excavations-in-artsakh/

Tombs from assorted dynasties found in Suzhou:

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90882/7568198.html

A massive Tang Dynasty sarcophagus from Hebei:

http://www.f-paper.com/?i720565-Giant-sarcophagus-found-in-the-Tang-Dynasty-Hebei-weighing-5-tons-buried-a-3-%28Figure%29

East Asian Archaeology:

http://eastasiablog.wordpress.com/2010/05/20/east-asian-archaeology-cultural-heritage-%E2%80%93-2052010/

Southeast Asian Archaeology Newsblog:

http://www.southeastasianarchaeology.com/

New Zealand Archaeology eNews:

http://www.nzarchaeology.org/netsubnews.htm
================================================================
NORTH AMERICA
================================================================
A 10 000 years b.p. village from Calvert Island (British Columbia) ...
maybe:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/british-columbia/anthropologist-believes-he-has-found-bc-village-that-may-be-10000-years-old/article2122298/

Possible remains of slave quarters at William and Mary:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/possible-slave-quarter-found-at-william-and-mary/2011/08/09/gIQANhUP5I_story.html
http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-08-archaeologists-brick-foundations-wren.html

Civil War bullets from a Gettysburg Oak:

http://www.artdaily.org/index.asp?int_sec=2&int_new=49738

Last week we mentioned Ken Tankersley's thoughts about the Mariemont
Serpent Mound ... here's another view:

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2011/08/03/prof-claims-hes-found-even-greater-serpent-mound.html

What's happening with the USS Monitor:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/09/science/09monitor.html

Finds from various periods prior to road construction in Utah:

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/52313490-78/sites-hansen-area-pit.html.csp

UConn is going to digitize a pile of Puerto Rico historic records:

http://www.wshu.org/news/story.php?ID=9013

Edgar Allan Poe house is having financial problems:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/08/arts/edgar-allan-poe-house-in-baltimore-faces-closing.html
================================================================
CENTRAL AND SOUTH AMERICA
================================================================
Another Olmec (style) monument from Chalcatzngo:

http://www.inah.gob.mx/index.php/boletines/14-hallazgos/5174-descubren-altar-precolombino-en-morelos

More on that 'Captain Morgan' shipwreck:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/centralamericaandthecaribbean/panama/8689215/Captain-Morgan-shipwreck-found.html

Mike Ruggeri's Ancient Americas Breaking News:

http://web.mac.com/michaelruggeri

Ancient MesoAmerica News:

http://ancient-mesoamerica-news-updates.blogspot.com/
================================================================
OTHER ITEMS OF INTEREST
================================================================
This thing about Marco Polo not making it to Asia seems like old news:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2024221/Marco-Polo-reached-China-picked-tales-Orient-Italians-claim.html
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/193741.html
http://www.smh.com.au/world/marco-polos-exploration-may-have-pulled-up-short-20110810-1imqg.html

More libraries are joining Proquest's Early European Books digitization
program:

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2011/8/prweb8712947.htm

A sort of previewish/hypish thing about Paul Holberton, *Caravaggio's Eye*:

http://www.artdaily.org/index.asp?int_sec=2&int_new=49766

A nice castle-at-night APOD:

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap110813.html

Feature on 'Peter the Wild Boy':

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14215171

Maybe Heraclitus was right?:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/13.7/2011/08/08/139006531/the-end-of-a-physics-worldview-heraclitus-and-the-watershed-of-life

Reviewish of Charles Mann, *1493*:

http://www.npr.org/2011/08/08/138924127/in-1493-columbus-shaped-a-world-to-be

Review of Michael Holroyd, *A Book of Secrets*:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/08/arts/edgar-allan-poe-house-in-baltimore-faces-closing.html

Review of Sharon McGrayne, *The Theory That Would Not Die*:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/08/arts/edgar-allan-poe-house-in-baltimore-faces-closing.html

Review of Brook Wilensky-Lanford, *Paradise Lust*:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/07/books/review/paradise-lust-by-brook-wilensky-lanford-book-review.html
================================================================
TOURISTY THINGS
================================================================
Caesarea:

http://www.thespec.com/living/travel/article/577924--ancient-caesarea-may-have-been-home-to-pontius-pilate

Asine:

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite4_27731_11/08/2011_371568

Cyprus:

http://www.cyprus-mail.com/features/rediscovering-cyprus-ancient-heritage/20110808
================================================================
BLOGS
================================================================
About.com Archaeology:

http://archaeology.about.com/

Archaeology Briefs:

http://archaeologybriefs.blogspot.com/

Taygete Atlantis excavations blogs aggregator:

http://planet.atlantides.org/taygete/

Time Machine:

http://heatherpringle.wordpress.com/
================================================================
CRIME BEAT
================================================================
Eight thefts from monuments in India:

http://zeenews.india.com/entertainment/articles/story94059.htm

Probation for a Colorado antiquities dealer:

http://www.therepublic.com/view/story/35dcce02a47e4906ae48a13129c3e371/UT--Artifacts-Looting/

They're recovering an awful lot of smuggled artifacts in Turkey:

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=turkish-museums8217-storage-crowded-with-smuggled-artifacts-2011-08-08

A bell was stolen from St James' Church in Bix during restorations:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-14447105

Donna D'Errico has had to call off her plans to search for Noah's Ark:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/lostinshowbiz/2011/aug/11/donna-derrico-hunts-noahs-ark

Looting Matters:

http://lootingmatters.blogspot.com/

Illicit Cultural Property:

http://illicit-cultural-property.blogspot.com/

Safe Corner:

http://safecorner.savingantiquities.org/
================================================================
NUMISMATICA
================================================================
Latest eSylum newsletter (the first one is a special ANA issue):

http://www.coinbooks.org/club_nbs_esylum_v14n33.html
http://www.coinbooks.org/club_nbs_esylum_v14n32.html

Ancient Coin Collecting:

http://ancientcoincollecting.blogspot.com/

Ancient Coins:

http://classicalcoins.blogspot.com/

Coin Link:

http://www.coinlink.com/News/
================================================================
EXHIBITIONS, AUCTIONS, AND MUSEUM-RELATED
================================================================
Rembrandt and the Face of Jesus:

http://www.thedailyjournal.com/article/20110808/LIFESTYLE/108080301
http://www.citypaper.net/arts/2011-08-11-rembrandt-face-of-jesus-philadelphia-museum-of-art.html
http://lifestyle.inquirer.net/8863/rembrandt-and-the-face-of-jesus-in-philadelphia/

Caravaggio and his Followers in Rome:

http://www.artmediaagency.com/en/26298/major-caravaggio-exhibition-at-kimbell-art-museum/
http://www.dallasartnews.com/2011/08/major-caravaggio-exhibition-opening-at-the-kimbell-art-museum-in-october/

Faberge:

http://www.timesunion.com/entertainment/article/Va-Museum-of-Fine-Arts-displays-Faberge-treasures-1771813.php

Tut is setting records in Melbourne:

http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/mummys-boy-tutankhamun-sets-new-record-20110810-1ilry.html
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaking-news/tutankhamun-smashes-attendance-record/story-e6frf7jx-1226111620480

I think we've heard about the Brisith Museum and Wikipedia getting cozy
before:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/government-computing-network/2011/aug/08/british-museum-wikipedia

Looks like the Shellal Mosaic might be the next repatriation focus:

http://www.smh.com.au/national/questions-raised-over-looted-mosaic-20110813-1irra.html

... and the Ankhhaf bust in Boston's MFA isn't going to be returned:

http://www.boston.com/ae/theater_arts/articles/2011/08/14/egypts_request_for_return_of_ankhhaf_bust_rebuffed_by_mfa/

A review of the North Carolina History Center:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/06/arts/design/north-carolina-history-center-at-tryon-palace.html

Tony Curtis' art collection is coming to auction:

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2011/08/09/arts/AP-US-Tony-Curtis-Auction.html

Check out our Twitter hashtage for more ancient exhibition reviews:

http://search.twitter.com/search?q=%23classicalexhibit
================================================================
PERFORMANCES AND THEATRE-RELATED
================================================================
Emperor and Galilean:

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/theatre-dance/reviews/emperor-and-galilean-national-theatre-london-2298752.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/theatre/theatre-reviews/8579898/Emperor-and-Galilean-National-Theatre-review.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/stage/2011/jun/15/review-emperor-and-galilean-olivier

Check out our Twitter hashtag for Ancient Drama reviews:

http://search.twitter.com/search?q=%23ancientdrama

... and for Sword and Sandal flicks:

http://search.twitter.com/search?q=%23swordandsandal

================================================================
OBITUARIES
================================================================
Simon Price:

http://www.lmh.ox.ac.uk/News/Sermon-at-the-funeral-of-Simon-Price.aspx
================================================================
PODCASTS
================================================================
The Book and the Spade:

http://www.radioscribe.com/bknspade.htm

Stone Pages Archaeology News:

http://news.stonepages.com/

Archaeologica Audio News:

http://www.archaeologychannel.org/AudioNews.asp

Naked Archaeology Podcast:

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/podcasts/archaeology/
================================================================
EXPLORATOR is a weekly newsletter representing the fruits of
the labours of 'media research division' of The Atrium. Various
on-line news and magazine sources are scoured for news of the
ancient world (broadly construed: practically anything relating
to archaeology or history prior to about 1700 or so is fair
game) and every Sunday they are delivered to your mailbox free of
charge!
================================================================
Useful Addresses
================================================================
Past issues of Explorator are available on the web via our
Yahoo site:

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Explorator/

To subscribe to Explorator, send a blank email message to:

Explorator-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

To unsubscribe, send a blank email message to:

Explorator-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

To send a 'heads up' to the editor or contact him for other
reasons:

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================================================================
Explorator is Copyright (c) 2011 David Meadows. Feel free to
distribute these listings via email to your pals, students,
teachers, etc., but please include this copyright notice. These
links are not to be posted to any website by any means (whether
by direct posting or snagging from a usenet group or some other
email source) without my express written permission. I think it
is only right that I be made aware of public fora which are
making use of content gathered in Explorator. Thanks!
================================================================

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85157 From: Cn. Cornelius Lentulus Date: 2011-08-15
Subject: Nova Roma in the Hungarian TV News on the 6th NR Reenactor Camp Succ
Cn Lentulus legatus pro praetore Pannoniae consulibus, praetoribus, tribunis pl., Quiritibus SPD


I am reporting, fellow citizens, that the 6th Nova Roman Reenactor Camp of Pannonia (organized jointly with the 8th Camp of the Gladius Reenactor Organization) held at Rostalló (an uninhabited mountain locality) was concluded and successful.

Also, I'm proud to report that Nova Roma and 6th Nova Roman Reenactor Camp was featured in a Hungarian TV News (and also in a Slovakian one, of which I don't have information yet). The TV News reports on the city festival of Sátoraljaújhely, celebrating the 750th anniversary of the city, where Nova Roma performed a Roman production with a Roman legion show and a Roman trial show as part of the programs of the NR Reenactor Camp.

Summary:

The TV News interviews pontifex Cn. Cornelius Lentulus, legatus pro praetore of Provincia Pannonia. Cn. Lentulus talks about the cooperation of Nova Roma with the Gladius Reenactor Organization, about the current event, about the displayed legions, about the equipment and clothing, and about the significance of Roman law and culture.

While Lentulus, wearing a toga, is speaking, the flag of Nova Roma is held up as the background for the intervew.

At the beginning of the interview, at 15:31 of the longer video, at 00:13 of the shorter video, you can hear Nova Roma mentioned.

Unfortunately, while I was clearly stating to the reporter that I speak for two organizations, Nova Roma and Gladius, the subtitle under my Hungarian name mentions only the Gladius Reenactor Organization.

There is a longer version of the TV News report, here (NR mentioned at 15:31):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eda3R1nPis&feature=player_detailpage#t=894s

And a shorter version, here (NR mentioned at 00:13):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WVilNk1Ydw&feature=related

I will later upload and share photos made during the NR Camp and the city fest.

VIVAT NOVA ROMA!

Valete optime!
Cn. Lentulus



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85158 From: iulius sabinus Date: 2011-08-15
Subject: Re: Nova Roma in the Hungarian TV News on the 6th NR Reenactor Camp
SALVE!

Congratulations, amice! Wonderful occasion to promote Nova Roma.

VALE,
Sabinus
 
"Every individual is the architect of his own fortune" - Appius Claudius


________________________________
From: Cn. Cornelius Lentulus <cn_corn_lent@...>
To: Nova Roma ML <nova-roma@yahoogroups.com>; Forum Hospitum <nova_roma_@yahoogroups.com>; New Roman List <newroman@yahoogroups.com>; Religio Romana List <ReligioRomana@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 1:31 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Nova Roma in the Hungarian TV News on the 6th NR Reenactor Camp Success


 
Cn Lentulus legatus pro praetore Pannoniae consulibus, praetoribus, tribunis pl., Quiritibus SPD

I am reporting, fellow citizens, that the 6th Nova Roman Reenactor Camp of Pannonia (organized jointly with the 8th Camp of the Gladius Reenactor Organization) held at Rostalló (an uninhabited mountain locality) was concluded and successful.

Also, I'm proud to report that Nova Roma and 6th Nova Roman Reenactor Camp was featured in a Hungarian TV News (and also in a Slovakian one, of which I don't have information yet). The TV News reports on the city festival of Sátoraljaújhely, celebrating the 750th anniversary of the city, where Nova Roma performed a Roman production with a Roman legion show and a Roman trial show as part of the programs of the NR Reenactor Camp.

Summary:

The TV News interviews pontifex Cn. Cornelius Lentulus, legatus pro praetore of Provincia Pannonia. Cn. Lentulus talks about the cooperation of Nova Roma with the Gladius Reenactor Organization, about the current event, about the displayed legions, about the equipment and clothing, and about the significance of Roman law and culture.

While Lentulus, wearing a toga, is speaking, the flag of Nova Roma is held up as the background for the intervew.

At the beginning of the interview, at 15:31 of the longer video, at 00:13 of the shorter video, you can hear Nova Roma mentioned.

Unfortunately, while I was clearly stating to the reporter that I speak for two organizations, Nova Roma and Gladius, the subtitle under my Hungarian name mentions only the Gladius Reenactor Organization.

There is a longer version of the TV News report, here (NR mentioned at 15:31):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eda3R1nPis&feature=player_detailpage#t=894s

And a shorter version, here (NR mentioned at 00:13):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WVilNk1Ydw&feature=related

I will later upload and share photos made during the NR Camp and the city fest.

VIVAT NOVA ROMA!

Valete optime!
Cn. Lentulus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85159 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2011-08-15
Subject: Re: Nova Roma in the Hungarian TV News on the 6th NR Reenactor Camp
Ave Lentule amicissime!

Bene, bene!

Vale,

Julia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, iulius sabinus <iulius_sabinus@...> wrote:
>
> SALVE!
>
> Congratulations, amice! Wonderful occasion to promote Nova Roma.
>
> VALE,
> Sabinus
>  
> "Every individual is the architect of his own fortune" - Appius Claudius
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Cn. Cornelius Lentulus <cn_corn_lent@...>
> To: Nova Roma ML <nova-roma@yahoogroups.com>; Forum Hospitum <nova_roma_@yahoogroups.com>; New Roman List <newroman@yahoogroups.com>; Religio Romana List <ReligioRomana@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 1:31 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Nova Roma in the Hungarian TV News on the 6th NR Reenactor Camp Success
>
>
>  
> Cn Lentulus legatus pro praetore Pannoniae consulibus, praetoribus, tribunis pl., Quiritibus SPD
>
> I am reporting, fellow citizens, that the 6th Nova Roman Reenactor Camp of Pannonia (organized jointly with the 8th Camp of the Gladius Reenactor Organization) held at Rostalló (an uninhabited mountain locality) was concluded and successful.
>
> Also, I'm proud to report that Nova Roma and 6th Nova Roman Reenactor Camp was featured in a Hungarian TV News (and also in a Slovakian one, of which I don't have information yet). The TV News reports on the city festival of Sátoraljaújhely, celebrating the 750th anniversary of the city, where Nova Roma performed a Roman production with a Roman legion show and a Roman trial show as part of the programs of the NR Reenactor Camp.
>
> Summary:
>
> The TV News interviews pontifex Cn. Cornelius Lentulus, legatus pro praetore of Provincia Pannonia. Cn. Lentulus talks about the cooperation of Nova Roma with the Gladius Reenactor Organization, about the current event, about the displayed legions, about the equipment and clothing, and about the significance of Roman law and culture.
>
> While Lentulus, wearing a toga, is speaking, the flag of Nova Roma is held up as the background for the intervew.
>
> At the beginning of the interview, at 15:31 of the longer video, at 00:13 of the shorter video, you can hear Nova Roma mentioned.
>
> Unfortunately, while I was clearly stating to the reporter that I speak for two organizations, Nova Roma and Gladius, the subtitle under my Hungarian name mentions only the Gladius Reenactor Organization.
>
> There is a longer version of the TV News report, here (NR mentioned at 15:31):
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eda3R1nPis&feature=player_detailpage#t=894s
>
> And a shorter version, here (NR mentioned at 00:13):
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WVilNk1Ydw&feature=related
>
> I will later upload and share photos made during the NR Camp and the city fest.
>
> VIVAT NOVA ROMA!
>
> Valete optime!
> Cn. Lentulus
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85160 From: Cato Date: 2011-08-15
Subject: a.d. XVIII Kal. Sept.
Cato omnibus in foro SPD

Hodiernus dies est ante diem XVIII Kalendas Septembris; haec dies comitialis est.

"At last he [Augustus Caesar] broke off his alliance with Marcus
Antonius, which was always doubtful and uncertain, and with difficulty
kept alive by various reconciliations; and the better to show that his
rival had fallen away from conduct becoming a citizen, he had the will
which Antony had left in Rome, naming his children by Cleopatra among
his heirs, opened and read before the people. But when Antony was
declared a public enemy, he sent back to him all his kinsfolk and
friends, among others Gaius Sosius and Titus Domitius, who were still
consuls at the time. He also excused the community of Bononia from
joining in the rally of all Italy to his standards, since they had
been from ancient days dependents of the Antonii. Not long afterwards
he won the sea-fight at Actium, where the contest continued to so late
an hour that the victor passed the night on board. Having gone into
winter quarters at Samos after Actium, he was disturbed by the news of
a mutiny of the troops that he had selected from every division of his
army and sent on to Brundisium after the victory, who demanded their
rewards and discharge; and on his way back to Italy he twice
encountered storms at sea, first between the headlands of the
Peloponnesus and Aetolia, and again off the Ceraunian mountains. In
both places a part of his galleys were sunk, while the rigging of the
ship in which he was sailing was carried away and its rudder broken.
He delayed at Brundisium only twenty-seven days — just long enough to
satisfy all the demands of the soldiers — and then went to Egypt by a
roundabout way through Asia and Syria, laid siege to Alexandria, where
Antony had taken refuge with Cleopatra, and soon took the city.
Although Antony tried to make terms at the eleventh hour, Augustus
forced him to commit suicide, and viewed his corpse. He greatly
desired to save Cleopatra alive for his triumph, and even had Psylli
brought to her, to suck the poison from her wound, since it was
thought that she had died from the bite of an asp. He allowed them
both the honour of burial, and in the same tomb, giving orders that
the mausoleum which they had begun should be finished. The young
Antony, the elder of Fulvia's two sons, he dragged from the image of
the Deified Julius, to which he had fled after many vain entreaties,
and slew him. Caesarion, too, whom Cleopatra fathered on Caesar, he
overtook in his flight, brought back, and put to death. But he spared
the rest of the offspring of Antony and Cleopatra, and afterwards
maintained and reared them according to their several positions, as
carefully as if they were his own kin.

About this time he had the sarcophagus and body of Alexander the Great
brought forth from its shrine, and after gazing on it, showed his
respect by placing upon it a golden crown and strewing it with
flowers; and being then asked whether he wished to see the tomb of the
Ptolemies as well, he replied, "My wish was to see a king, not
corpses." He reduced Egypt to the form of a province, and then to
make it more fruitful and better adapted to supply the city with
grain, he set his soldiers at work cleaning out all the canals into
which the Nile overflows, which in the course of many years had become
choked with mud. To extend the fame of his victory at Actium and
perpetuate his memory, he founded a city called Nicopolis near Actium,
and provided for the celebration of games there every five years;
enlarged the ancient temple of Apollo; and after adorning the site of
the camp which he had occupied with naval trophies, consecrated it to
Neptune and Mars." - Seutonius, "Lives of the Twelve Caesars",
Augustus 17-18

"In the course of the summer Caesar [Augustus, at this time still
known as Octavian] crossed over to Greece and to Italy; and when he
entered the city, not only all the citizens offered sacrifice, as has
been mentioned, but even the consul Valerius Potitus. Caesar, to be
sure, was consul all that year as for the two preceding years, but
Potitus was the successor of Sextus. It was he who publicly and in
person offered sacrifices on behalf of the senate and of the people
upon Caesar's arrival, a thing that had never been done in the case of
any other person. After this Caesar bestowed eulogies and honours upon
his lieutenants, as was customary, and to Agrippa he further granted,
among other distinctions, a dark blue flag in honour of his naval
victory, and he gave gifts to the soldiers; to the people he
distributed four hundred sesterces apiece, first to the men who were
adults, and afterwards to the children because of his nephew
Marcellus. In view of all this, and because he would not accept from
the cities of Italy the gold required for the crowns they had voted
him, and because, furthermore, he not only paid all the debts he
himself owed to others, as has been stated, but also did not insist on
the payment of others' debts to him, the Romans forgot all their
unpleasant experiences and viewed his triumph with pleasure, quite as
if the vanquished had all been foreigners. So vast an amount of
money, in fact, circulated through all parts of the city alike, that
the price of goods rose and loans for which the borrower had been glad
to pay twelve per cent. could now be had for one third that rate. As
for the triumph, Caesar celebrated on the first day his victories over
the Pannonians and Dalmatians, the Iapydes and their neighbours, and
some Germans and Gauls. For Gaius Carrinas had subdued the Morini
and others who had revolted with them, and had repulsed the Suebi, who
had crossed the Rhine to wage war. Not only did Carrinas, therefore,
celebrate the triumph,— and that notwithstanding that his father had
been put to death by Sulla and that he himself along with the others
in like condition had once been debarred from holding office,— but
Caesar also celebrated it, since the credit of the victory properly
belonged to his position as supreme commander. This was the first
day's celebration. On the second day the naval victory at Actium was
commemorated, and on the third the subjugation of Egypt. Now all the
processions proved notable, thanks to the spoils from Egypt,— in such
quantities, indeed, had spoils been gathered there that they sufficed
for all the processions,— but the Egyptian celebration surpassed them
all in costliness and magnificence. Among other features, an effigy
of the dead Cleopatra upon a couch was carried by, so that in a way
she, too, together with the other captives and with her children,
Alexander, also called Helios, and Cleopatra, called also Selene, was
a part of the spectacle and a trophy in the procession. After this
came Caesar, riding into the city behind them all. He did everything
in the customary manner, except that he permitted his fellow-consul
and the other magistrates, contrary to precedent, to follow him along
with the senators who had participated in the victory; for it was
usual for such officials to march in advance and for only the senators
to follow.

After finishing this celebration Caesar dedicated the temple of
Minerva, called also the Chalcidicum, and the Curia Iulia, which had
been built in honour of his father. In the latter he set up the statue
of Victory which is still in existence, thus signifying that it was
from her that he had received the empire. It had belonged to the
people of Tarentum, whence it was now brought to Rome, placed in the
senate-chamber, and decked with the spoils of Egypt. The same course
was followed in the case of the shrine of Julius which was consecrated
at this time, for many of these spoils were placed in it also; and
others were dedicated to Jupiter Capitolinus and to Juno and Minerva,
after all the objects in these temples which were supposed to have
been placed there previously as dedications, or were actually
dedications, had by decree been taken down at this time as defiled.
Thus Cleopatra, though defeated and captured, was nevertheless
glorified, inasmuch as her adornments repose as dedications in our
temples and she herself is seen in gold in the shrine of Venus.

At the consecration of the shrine to Julius there were all kinds of
contests, and the boys of the patricians performed the equestrian
exercise called "Troy," and men of the same rank contended with
chargers, with pairs, and with four-horse teams; furthermore, one
Quintus Vitellius, a senator, fought as a gladiator. Wild beasts and
tame animals were slain in vast numbers, among them a rhinoceros and a
hippopotamus, beasts then seen for the first time in Rome. As regards
the nature of the hippopotamus, it has been described by many and far
more have seen it. The rhinoceros, on the other hand, is in general
somewhat like an elephant, but it has also a horn on its very nose and
has got its name because of this. These beasts, accordingly, were
brought in, and moreover Dacians and Suebi fought in crowds with one
another. The latter are Germans, the former Scythians of a sort. The
Suebi, to be exact, dwell beyond the Rhine (though many people
elsewhere claim their name), and the Dacians on both sides of the
Ister; those of the latter, however, who live on this side of the
river near the country of the Triballi are reckoned in with the
district of Moesia and are called Moesians, except by those living in
the immediate neighbourhood, while those on the other side are called
Dacians and are either a branch of the Getae are Thracians belonging
to the Dacian race that once inhabited Rhodope. Now these Dacians had
before this time sent envoys to Caesar; but when they obtained none of
their requests, they went over to Antony. They proved of no great
assistance to him, however, owing to strife among themselves, and some
who were afterwards captured were now matched against the Suebi. The
whole spectacle lasted many days, as one would expect, and there was
no interruption, even though Caesar fell ill, but it was carried on in
his absence under the direction of others. On one of the days of this
celebration the senators gave banquets in the vestibules of their
several homes; but what the occasion was for their doing this, I do
not know, since it is not recorded." - Cassius Dio, "The Roman
Histories" 51.21-22

On this day in 29 BC, Augustus returned to Rome in triumph after
defeating Marcus Antonius and Cleopatra VII, the Queen of Egypt, at
Actium.

Valete bene!

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85161 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2011-08-15
Subject: Re: Nova Roma in the Hungarian TV News on the 6th NR Reenactor Camp
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica Cn. Cornelio Lentulo S.P.D.
>
>
>
> Cn Lentulus legatus pro praetore Pannoniae consulibus, praetoribus, tribunis
> pl., Quiritibus SPD
>
> I am reporting, fellow citizens, that the 6th Nova Roman Reenactor Camp of
> Pannonia (organized jointly with the 8th Camp of the Gladius Reenactor
> Organization) held at Rostalló (an uninhabited mountain locality) was
> concluded and successful.
>
> ATS: Optimé!
>
> Also, I'm proud to report that Nova Roma and 6th Nova Roman Reenactor Camp was
> featured in a Hungarian TV News (and also in a Slovakian one, of which I don't
> have information yet). The TV News reports on the city festival of
> Sátoraljaújhely, celebrating the 750th anniversary of the city, where Nova
> Roma performed a Roman production with a Roman legion show and a Roman trial
> show as part of the programs of the NR Reenactor Camp.
>
> Summary:
>
> The TV News interviews pontifex Cn. Cornelius Lentulus, legatus pro praetore
> of Provincia Pannonia. Cn. Lentulus talks about the cooperation of Nova Roma
> with the Gladius Reenactor Organization, about the current event, about the
> displayed legions, about the equipment and clothing, and about the
> significance of Roman law and culture.
>
> While Lentulus, wearing a toga, is speaking, the flag of Nova Roma is held up
> as the background for the intervew.
>
> At the beginning of the interview, at 15:31 of the longer video, at 00:13 of
> the shorter video, you can hear Nova Roma mentioned.
>
> Unfortunately, while I was clearly stating to the reporter that I speak for
> two organizations, Nova Roma and Gladius, the subtitle under my Hungarian name
> mentions only the Gladius Reenactor Organization.
>
> There is a longer version of the TV News report, here (NR mentioned at 15:31):
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eda3R1nPis&feature=player_detailpage#t=894s
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eda3R1nPis&feature=player_detailpage#t=89
> 4s>
>
> And a shorter version, here (NR mentioned at 00:13):
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WVilNk1Ydw&feature=related
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WVilNk1Ydw&feature=related>
>
> I will later upload and share photos made during the NR Camp and the city
> fest.
>
>
> ATS: Euge! Tibi gratulor! Eximie factum! Macte! Imagines
> photographicas expecto. Rarissimé pelliculas deonero, nam tantum accessum
> tardum habeo.
>
> VIVAT NOVA ROMA!
>
> Valete optime!
> Cn. Lentulus
>
> Et tu!
>
>
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85162 From: D. Cornelius Mento Date: 2011-08-15
Subject: Re: Nova Roma in the Hungarian TV News on the 6th NR Reenactor Camp
Bene, bene. Tempus bibere.


D. Mento

On 8/15/2011 3:11 PM, A. Tullia Scholastica wrote:
>
> >
> > A. Tullia Scholastica Cn. Cornelio Lentulo S.P.D.
> >
> >
> >
> > Cn Lentulus legatus pro praetore Pannoniae consulibus, praetoribus,
> tribunis
> > pl., Quiritibus SPD
> >
> > I am reporting, fellow citizens, that the 6th Nova Roman Reenactor
> Camp of
> > Pannonia (organized jointly with the 8th Camp of the Gladius Reenactor
> > Organization) held at Rostalló (an uninhabited mountain locality) was
> > concluded and successful.
> >
> > ATS: Optimé!
> >
> > Also, I'm proud to report that Nova Roma and 6th Nova Roman
> Reenactor Camp was
> > featured in a Hungarian TV News (and also in a Slovakian one, of
> which I don't
> > have information yet). The TV News reports on the city festival of
> > Sátoraljaújhely, celebrating the 750th anniversary of the city,
> where Nova
> > Roma performed a Roman production with a Roman legion show and a
> Roman trial
> > show as part of the programs of the NR Reenactor Camp.
> >
> > Summary:
> >
> > The TV News interviews pontifex Cn. Cornelius Lentulus, legatus pro
> praetore
> > of Provincia Pannonia. Cn. Lentulus talks about the cooperation of
> Nova Roma
> > with the Gladius Reenactor Organization, about the current event,
> about the
> > displayed legions, about the equipment and clothing, and about the
> > significance of Roman law and culture.
> >
> > While Lentulus, wearing a toga, is speaking, the flag of Nova Roma
> is held up
> > as the background for the intervew.
> >
> > At the beginning of the interview, at 15:31 of the longer video, at
> 00:13 of
> > the shorter video, you can hear Nova Roma mentioned.
> >
> > Unfortunately, while I was clearly stating to the reporter that I
> speak for
> > two organizations, Nova Roma and Gladius, the subtitle under my
> Hungarian name
> > mentions only the Gladius Reenactor Organization.
> >
> > There is a longer version of the TV News report, here (NR mentioned
> at 15:31):
> >
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eda3R1nPis&feature=player_detailpage#t=894s
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eda3R1nPis&feature=player_detailpage#t=894s>
> >
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eda3R1nPis&feature=player_detailpage#t=89
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eda3R1nPis&feature=player_detailpage#t=89>
> > 4s>
> >
> > And a shorter version, here (NR mentioned at 00:13):
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WVilNk1Ydw&feature=related
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WVilNk1Ydw&feature=related>
> > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WVilNk1Ydw&feature=related
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WVilNk1Ydw&feature=related>>
> >
> > I will later upload and share photos made during the NR Camp and the
> city
> > fest.
> >
> >
> > ATS: Euge! Tibi gratulor! Eximie factum! Macte! Imagines
> > photographicas expecto. Rarissimé pelliculas deonero, nam tantum
> accessum
> > tardum habeo.
> >
> > VIVAT NOVA ROMA!
> >
> > Valete optime!
> > Cn. Lentulus
> >
> > Et tu!
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

--


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85163 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2011-08-15
Subject: Re: Nova Roma in the Hungarian TV News on the 6th NR Reenactor Camp
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica D. Mentoni omnibus bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
>
>
>
> Bene, bene. Tempus bibere.
>
> ATS: Melius: tempus aptum studendae linguae Latinae, ut omnia quae dixi
> intellegas / intellegatis. ;-)
>
> D. Mento
>
> Vale, et valete.
>
> On 8/15/2011 3:11 PM, A. Tullia Scholastica wrote:
>> >
>>> > >
>>> > > A. Tullia Scholastica Cn. Cornelio Lentulo S.P.D.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Cn Lentulus legatus pro praetore Pannoniae consulibus, praetoribus,
>> > tribunis
>>> > > pl., Quiritibus SPD
>>> > >
>>> > > I am reporting, fellow citizens, that the 6th Nova Roman Reenactor
>> > Camp of
>>> > > Pannonia (organized jointly with the 8th Camp of the Gladius Reenactor
>>> > > Organization) held at Rostalló (an uninhabited mountain locality) was
>>> > > concluded and successful.
>>> > >
>>> > > ATS: Optimé!
>>> > >
>>> > > Also, I'm proud to report that Nova Roma and 6th Nova Roman
>> > Reenactor Camp was
>>> > > featured in a Hungarian TV News (and also in a Slovakian one, of
>> > which I don't
>>> > > have information yet). The TV News reports on the city festival of
>>> > > Sátoraljaújhely, celebrating the 750th anniversary of the city,
>> > where Nova
>>> > > Roma performed a Roman production with a Roman legion show and a
>> > Roman trial
>>> > > show as part of the programs of the NR Reenactor Camp.
>>> > >
>>> > > Summary:
>>> > >
>>> > > The TV News interviews pontifex Cn. Cornelius Lentulus, legatus pro
>> > praetore
>>> > > of Provincia Pannonia. Cn. Lentulus talks about the cooperation of
>> > Nova Roma
>>> > > with the Gladius Reenactor Organization, about the current event,
>> > about the
>>> > > displayed legions, about the equipment and clothing, and about the
>>> > > significance of Roman law and culture.
>>> > >
>>> > > While Lentulus, wearing a toga, is speaking, the flag of Nova Roma
>> > is held up
>>> > > as the background for the intervew.
>>> > >
>>> > > At the beginning of the interview, at 15:31 of the longer video, at
>> > 00:13 of
>>> > > the shorter video, you can hear Nova Roma mentioned.
>>> > >
>>> > > Unfortunately, while I was clearly stating to the reporter that I
>> > speak for
>>> > > two organizations, Nova Roma and Gladius, the subtitle under my
>> > Hungarian name
>>> > > mentions only the Gladius Reenactor Organization.
>>> > >
>>> > > There is a longer version of the TV News report, here (NR mentioned
>> > at 15:31):
>>> > >
>> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eda3R1nPis&feature=player_detailpage#t=894s
>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eda3R1nPis&feature=player_detailpage#t=8
>> 94s>
>> >
>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eda3R1nPis&feature=player_detailpage#t=894s
>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eda3R1nPis&feature=player_detailpage#t=8
>> 94s>
>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eda3R1nPis&feature=player_detailpage#t=894s
>> > >
>>> > >
>> >
>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eda3R1nPis&feature=player_detailpage#t=8
>> 9
>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eda3R1nPis&amp;feature=player_detailpage
>> #t=89>
>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eda3R1nPis&feature=player_detailpage#t=8
>> 9 >
>> >
>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eda3R1nPis&feature=player_detailpage#t=8
>> 9
>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eda3R1nPis&amp;feature=player_detailpage
>> #t=89>
>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eda3R1nPis&feature=player_detailpage#t=8
>> 9 > >
>>> > > 4s>
>>> > >
>>> > > And a shorter version, here (NR mentioned at 00:13):
>>> > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WVilNk1Ydw&feature=related
>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WVilNk1Ydw&feature=related>
>> > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WVilNk1Ydw&feature=related
>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WVilNk1Ydw&feature=related>
>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WVilNk1Ydw&feature=related > >
>>> > > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WVilNk1Ydw&feature=related
>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WVilNk1Ydw&amp;feature=related>
>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WVilNk1Ydw&feature=related >
>> > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WVilNk1Ydw&feature=related
>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WVilNk1Ydw&amp;feature=related>
>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WVilNk1Ydw&feature=related > >>
>>> > >
>>> > > I will later upload and share photos made during the NR Camp and the
>> > city
>>> > > fest.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > ATS: Euge! Tibi gratulor! Eximie factum! Macte! Imagines
>>> > > photographicas expecto. Rarissimé pelliculas deonero, nam tantum
>> > accessum
>>> > > tardum habeo.
>>> > >
>>> > > VIVAT NOVA ROMA!
>>> > >
>>> > > Valete optime!
>>> > > Cn. Lentulus
>>> > >
>>> > > Et tu!
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85164 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2011-08-15
Subject: Re: Nova Roma in the Hungarian TV News on the 6th NR Reenactor Camp
Salve, Mento!

In Horace's famous words, "Nunc est bibendum . . ."
~ Valerianus

On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 2:10 PM, D. Cornelius Mento <
decimuscorneliusmento@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Bene, bene. Tempus bibere.
>
> D. Mento
>
>
> On 8/15/2011 3:11 PM, A. Tullia Scholastica wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > A. Tullia Scholastica Cn. Cornelio Lentulo S.P.D.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Cn Lentulus legatus pro praetore Pannoniae consulibus, praetoribus,
> > tribunis
> > > pl., Quiritibus SPD
> > >
> > > I am reporting, fellow citizens, that the 6th Nova Roman Reenactor
> > Camp of
> > > Pannonia (organized jointly with the 8th Camp of the Gladius Reenactor
> > > Organization) held at Rostall� (an uninhabited mountain locality) was
> > > concluded and successful.
> > >
> > > ATS: Optim�!
> > >
> > > Also, I'm proud to report that Nova Roma and 6th Nova Roman
> > Reenactor Camp was
> > > featured in a Hungarian TV News (and also in a Slovakian one, of
> > which I don't
> > > have information yet). The TV News reports on the city festival of
> > > S�toralja�jhely, celebrating the 750th anniversary of the city,
> > where Nova
> > > Roma performed a Roman production with a Roman legion show and a
> > Roman trial
> > > show as part of the programs of the NR Reenactor Camp.
> > >
> > > Summary:
> > >
> > > The TV News interviews pontifex Cn. Cornelius Lentulus, legatus pro
> > praetore
> > > of Provincia Pannonia. Cn. Lentulus talks about the cooperation of
> > Nova Roma
> > > with the Gladius Reenactor Organization, about the current event,
> > about the
> > > displayed legions, about the equipment and clothing, and about the
> > > significance of Roman law and culture.
> > >
> > > While Lentulus, wearing a toga, is speaking, the flag of Nova Roma
> > is held up
> > > as the background for the intervew.
> > >
> > > At the beginning of the interview, at 15:31 of the longer video, at
> > 00:13 of
> > > the shorter video, you can hear Nova Roma mentioned.
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, while I was clearly stating to the reporter that I
> > speak for
> > > two organizations, Nova Roma and Gladius, the subtitle under my
> > Hungarian name
> > > mentions only the Gladius Reenactor Organization.
> > >
> > > There is a longer version of the TV News report, here (NR mentioned
> > at 15:31):
> > >
> >
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eda3R1nPis&feature=player_detailpage#t=894s
> > <
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eda3R1nPis&feature=player_detailpage#t=894s
> >
> > >
> > <
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eda3R1nPis&feature=player_detailpage#t=89<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eda3R1nPis&feature=player_detailpage#t=89>
> > <
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eda3R1nPis&feature=player_detailpage#t=89<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eda3R1nPis&feature=player_detailpage#t=89>
> >
> > > 4s>
> > >
> > > And a shorter version, here (NR mentioned at 00:13):
> > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WVilNk1Ydw&feature=related
> > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WVilNk1Ydw&feature=related>
> > > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WVilNk1Ydw&feature=related<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WVilNk1Ydw&feature=related>
> > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WVilNk1Ydw&feature=related<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WVilNk1Ydw&feature=related>
> >>
> > >
> > > I will later upload and share photos made during the NR Camp and the
> > city
> > > fest.
> > >
> > >
> > > ATS: Euge! Tibi gratulor! Eximie factum! Macte! Imagines
> > > photographicas expecto. Rarissim� pelliculas deonero, nam tantum
> > accessum
> > > tardum habeo.
> > >
> > > VIVAT NOVA ROMA!
> > >
> > > Valete optime!
> > > Cn. Lentulus
> > >
> > > Et tu!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>
> --
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85165 From: D. Cornelius Mento Date: 2011-08-15
Subject: Re: Nova Roma in the Hungarian TV News on the 6th NR Reenactor Camp
Omnes intellegas.

Ex animo...

On 8/15/2011 7:37 PM, A. Tullia Scholastica wrote:
> tempus aptum studendae linguae Latinae, ut omnia quae dixi
> > intellegas / intellegatis. ;-)

--


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85166 From: D. Cornelius Mento Date: 2011-08-15
Subject: Re: Nova Roma in the Hungarian TV News on the 6th NR Reenactor Camp
Salve, Valerianus

Quid sapiens!


- D. Mento

On 8/15/2011 7:46 PM, Gaius Tullius Valerianus wrote:
> Salve, Mento!
>
> In Horace's famous words, "Nunc est bibendum . . ."
> ~ Valerianus
>
> On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 2:10 PM, D. Cornelius Mento<
> decimuscorneliusmento@...> wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>>
>> Bene, bene. Tempus bibere.
>>
>> D. Mento
>>
>>
>> On 8/15/2011 3:11 PM, A. Tullia Scholastica wrote:
>>>> A. Tullia Scholastica Cn. Cornelio Lentulo S.P.D.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cn Lentulus legatus pro praetore Pannoniae consulibus, praetoribus,
>>> tribunis
>>>> pl., Quiritibus SPD
>>>>
>>>> I am reporting, fellow citizens, that the 6th Nova Roman Reenactor
>>> Camp of
>>>> Pannonia (organized jointly with the 8th Camp of the Gladius Reenactor
>>>> Organization) held at Rostalló (an uninhabited mountain locality) was
>>>> concluded and successful.
>>>>
>>>> ATS: Optimé!
>>>>
>>>> Also, I'm proud to report that Nova Roma and 6th Nova Roman
>>> Reenactor Camp was
>>>> featured in a Hungarian TV News (and also in a Slovakian one, of
>>> which I don't
>>>> have information yet). The TV News reports on the city festival of
>>>> Sátoraljaújhely, celebrating the 750th anniversary of the city,
>>> where Nova
>>>> Roma performed a Roman production with a Roman legion show and a
>>> Roman trial
>>>> show as part of the programs of the NR Reenactor Camp.
>>>>
>>>> Summary:
>>>>
>>>> The TV News interviews pontifex Cn. Cornelius Lentulus, legatus pro
>>> praetore
>>>> of Provincia Pannonia. Cn. Lentulus talks about the cooperation of
>>> Nova Roma
>>>> with the Gladius Reenactor Organization, about the current event,
>>> about the
>>>> displayed legions, about the equipment and clothing, and about the
>>>> significance of Roman law and culture.
>>>>
>>>> While Lentulus, wearing a toga, is speaking, the flag of Nova Roma
>>> is held up
>>>> as the background for the intervew.
>>>>
>>>> At the beginning of the interview, at 15:31 of the longer video, at
>>> 00:13 of
>>>> the shorter video, you can hear Nova Roma mentioned.
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately, while I was clearly stating to the reporter that I
>>> speak for
>>>> two organizations, Nova Roma and Gladius, the subtitle under my
>>> Hungarian name
>>>> mentions only the Gladius Reenactor Organization.
>>>>
>>>> There is a longer version of the TV News report, here (NR mentioned
>>> at 15:31):
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eda3R1nPis&feature=player_detailpage#t=894s
>>> <
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eda3R1nPis&feature=player_detailpage#t=894s
>>> <
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eda3R1nPis&feature=player_detailpage#t=89<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eda3R1nPis&feature=player_detailpage#t=89>
>>> <
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eda3R1nPis&feature=player_detailpage#t=89<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eda3R1nPis&feature=player_detailpage#t=89>
>>>> 4s>
>>>>
>>>> And a shorter version, here (NR mentioned at 00:13):
>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WVilNk1Ydw&feature=related
>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WVilNk1Ydw&feature=related>
>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WVilNk1Ydw&feature=related<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WVilNk1Ydw&feature=related>
>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WVilNk1Ydw&feature=related<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WVilNk1Ydw&feature=related>
>>>>
>>>> I will later upload and share photos made during the NR Camp and the
>>> city
>>>> fest.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ATS: Euge! Tibi gratulor! Eximie factum! Macte! Imagines
>>>> photographicas expecto. Rarissimé pelliculas deonero, nam tantum
>>> accessum
>>>> tardum habeo.
>>>>
>>>> VIVAT NOVA ROMA!
>>>>
>>>> Valete optime!
>>>> Cn. Lentulus
>>>>
>>>> Et tu!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>
>>>
>> --
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

--


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85167 From: Belle Morte Statia Date: 2011-08-16
Subject: Re: Nova Roma in the Hungarian TV News on the 6th NR Reenactor Camp
Salve et Salvete Omnes:



Optime! Watched the links, congrats care amice!


Bravo!

Vale et Valete bene,
Aeternia


--
*"Fortes fortuna iuvat"*


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85168 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2011-08-16
Subject: Portunalia
Iulia Pontifex Quiritibus SPD

Today is Portunalia, XVI Kalendas Septembres, a festival in honor of Portunus the god of harbors, gateways, a river God and today commemorates the consecration of His temple in Rome near the Forum Boarium "Portunalia dicta a Portuno, cui eo die aedes in portu Tiberino facta et feriae institutae" (The Portunalia are named after Portunus, to whom on that day a temple in the Tiber port was made and consecrated.)

http://www.livius.org/ro-rz/rome/rome_t_portunus.html
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Portunus

Optime vale,

L. Iulia Aquila
Pontifex Novæ Romæ
Sacerdos Veneris Genetricis
Sacerdos Prima A.Æ
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85169 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2011-08-16
Subject: The accession of a young Roman to "Vestal Virgins"
Iulia Pontifex Omnibus Civibus SPD,

L'adesione di una giovane romana alle "Vestali" - Libera interpretazione (The accession of a young Roman to "Vestal Virgins" - Free interpretation)

Part One:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhvIKlqnQvk

Part Two:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnqH_c_lDR4


Optime vale,

L. Iulia Aquila
Pontifex Novæ Romæ
Sacerdos Veneris Genetricis
Sacerdos Prima A.Æ
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85170 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2011-08-16
Subject: Re: Portunalia + anti-flood ritual
Iulia pont sd

This morning a ritual was done for Nashville TN. for the protection of Portunus to keep the water of the living River from spilling over its banks.

Vale bene,

Julia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "luciaiuliaaquila" <luciaiuliaaquila@...> wrote:
>
> Iulia Pontifex Quiritibus SPD
>
> Today is Portunalia, XVI Kalendas Septembres, a festival in honor of Portunus the god of harbors, gateways, a river God and today commemorates the consecration of His temple in Rome near the Forum Boarium "Portunalia dicta a Portuno, cui eo die aedes in portu Tiberino facta et feriae institutae" (The Portunalia are named after Portunus, to whom on that day a temple in the Tiber port was made and consecrated.)
>
> http://www.livius.org/ro-rz/rome/rome_t_portunus.html
> http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Portunus
>
> Optime vale,
>
> L. Iulia Aquila
> Pontifex Novæ Romæ
> Sacerdos Veneris Genetricis
> Sacerdos Prima A.Æ
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85171 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2011-08-16
Subject: Sacella in Middle Tennessee
Iulia pont. sd,

There are many sacella in my provincia, but not all are consecrated. I am working on a photo journal of the sacella located in and around Nashville, and hope to add many more the last week of September when amicorum conventu Romanorum senex;-) takes place! If any other Romans plan to be in the area or would like to join us - you are welcome, just email me!
Many rites have been performed at the Parthenon in Nashville, the Minerva shrine, and another is scheduled for early October in addition to few throughout the year at the consecrated to Venus area at Smith Springs and a grove also consecrated to Venus in my yard.
Still more occur through Aedes Venus Genetrix and also Sanctuary of Fortuna Primigenia - primarily mysteries, both located in Nashville.
I hope to consecrate more sacella in the middle Tennessee area including to Portunus at the River, particularly as I am receiving emails of great interest. This month I will be consecrating a sacellum to Priapus at a farm in Lewisberg Tn, that includes a sculpture I was commissioned to create - and AVG is in the planning stages for sacella in the Columbia area and to the north of Nashville.

A note about what is oft referred to as the Mars Victor, this was created as a non-deified Greek youth as lots of Greek statuary represent youth for athletic competition or war victories and utilize the Nike symbol. It is a common Greek theme for Nike to be depicted as bestowing victory to a youth.
The sculptors of this statue, B Kinney and her husband L Sholz did several victory/war sculptures along those lines following the Greek classical beautiful perfect youth in a victorious stance around the country. This particular statue is described as "a heroic statue of Youth holding a Nike in his left hand symbolizing victory in war.""bronze youth (who) holds in his hand a Nike, the Greek symbol for Victory. His sandaled foot rests on a ship's prow leaving the harbor, or returning victorious. The legend reads "In Memory of the Sons of Tennessee Who gave Their Lives in the Great War, 1914 - 1918" Dismanibus.

It would be a fine ritual to formally consecrate it to Mars Victor.

The Capitol building overlooks the Bicentennial Capitol Mall
State Park, which, with its impressive pillars and layout, it resembles a Roman Forum - here is a link to the Carillons and the Court of 3 Stars:
http://www.tn.gov/environment/parks/Bicentennial/historical/index.shtml#carillons

Any and all are invited to join both groups whether you live in Nashville or not, you are all so welcome!:

Aedes Venus Genetrix:
http://www.meetup.com/Temple-Of-Venus/
On Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/aedesvenusgenetrix?ref=ts

Mystic Sanctuary of Fortuna Primigenia:
http://www.meetup.com/Mystic-Sanctuary-Of-Fortuna-Primigenia/
On Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/groups/MysticSanctuary/


L. Iulia Aquila
Pontifex Novæ Romæ
Sacerdos Veneris Genetricis
Sacerdos Prima A.Æ

http://thelastenchantment.com
On Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/lastenchantment/
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85172 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2011-08-16
Subject: Roman Virtues: Auctoritas
Gaius Tullius Valerianus Germanicus omnibus in his foris S.P.D.

Salvete omnes,

I have decided to embark on a discussion and exploration of Roman
virtues over the coming months, and having discussed it with some fellow
Romans and finding that there seemed to be some general interest, I shall be
posting discussion thread topics to our official Nova Roman fora in hopes of
opening up discussion on this topic to as many of our citizens and
prospective citizens as possible. The format will be as follows: once a
week, I shall post a Roman virtue to the fora, and offer some commentary. I
would like to see as many people as possible weigh in with their opinions,
feelings, anecdotes, and so forth about the virtue in question. The virtues
under discussion will initially be taken from the Nova Roma website (*
videte *http://novaroma.org/nr/Roman_virtues), but eventually we might
address others as well.

The first great Roman virtue I would like to address is *Auctoritas. *Many
people would simply translate this word into English by its derivative,
"authority," but to do so loses much of the nuance of the Latin *auctoritas.
*The Nova Roma website defines it thus: *"Spiritual Authority" The sense of
one's social standing, built up through experience, Pietas, and Industria. *It
is one of two "private virtues" with a page of its own (the other being *
pietas*), This is what the *Auctoritas *page says on the NR wiki: *An
essential concept of Roman political life and not the same as English
"authority", auctoritas referred to the general level of prestige a person
had in Roman society, and, as a consequence, their clout, influence, and
ability to rally support around one's will. Actoritas is the ability to make
people do what you want, just by being who you are. The auctoritas is more
than advice and less than command, an advice which one may not safely
ignore.*
*
*
* *So much for an initial definition of *auctoritas. *But what did it
really mean for ancient Romans, and what does it mean for us today as Nova
Romans, *id est *why should we hold *Auctoritas *to be a virtue? How does
one *live Auctoritas? *Who are the great exemplars, if any, of *Auctoritas?
*I shall offer commentary on this discussion thread, but I would also like
to see as many Roman citizens and prospective citizens as possible join the
discussion!

Valete!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85173 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2011-08-16
Subject: Re: Portunalia A Day Early! + anti-flood ritual
Iulia Omnibus S.P.D.

I am reminded by a new post I read today on Roman virtues of a passage by Cicero in his De Re Publica 1.2 : "Nec vero habere virtutem satis est quasi artem aliquam nisi utare" – "Yet to possess virtue, like some art, without exercising it, is insufficient."

Today I have an opportunity to exercise Virtus and Veritas as I inform this forum of my error and further exercise Comitas as I share the sign that should have been a huge hint of my error.
I had decided a week ago that I would set reminders directly on my new Laptop of significant Roman calendar days, and even more ambitious to set them to Roman time and this where everything went wrong as I became an unwitting time traveler and performed a ritual on the banks of the Cumberland River at Sunrise to Portunus, thinking today was the Portunalia XVI Kalendas Septembres, when today is actually a.d. XVII Kalendas Septembres!
I was a day early and tomorrow morning I shall make sacrifice and piaculum to Portunus in my grove for my ignorant error regarding the commemoration of the consecration of his Temple. I am also going to schedule as I always have by checking the online calendar until such time I feel confident in the satisfactory improvement of my programming skills; I have a suspicion I inadvertently caused a conflict between my modern calendar and the ancient one. Hopefully I shall avert any more errors of this type.

I feel, despite the calendar error, the sacrifice was well received and Portunus will keep the Cumberland from rising as the signs were favorable as I sat on a bench with the libum and a 1/2 full liter bottle of red wine a few feet in front of me watching the peaceful river float by, listening to a serenade of early birds in the trees and being gifted with a lovely Robin flying in towards me that picked up a chunk of honeyed libum and flew nearly straight up to the sky. For me the absence of rats was also a very good thing.
I shall sacrifice and perform ritual to Portunus on this day each year for that purpose. This I have placed on my perpetual modern calendar ;-)

Now, in hindsight, the hint of my error. Just as I was planning to get up from my perch and make the drive home to begin my busy day a street person appeared out of nowhere, his trousers soaked from the knees down laughing to himself, seemingly oblivious to my presence as he rambled by me and in one fluid movement swooped up the rest of the libum and the bottle of wine than stood for a second, tossed his head back and laughed towards the sky, and still laughing rambled away. I couldn't help but laugh as well :-)

To you, my fellow Romans, I apologize if my error, my fault, caused similar errors in your day, as well as a general apology and may I continue to serve you and the Gods of Rome in the best way possible.

Optime vale,

L. Julia Aquila
Pontifex Novæ Romæ
Sacerdos Veneris Genetricis
Sacerdos Prima A.Æ


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "luciaiuliaaquila" <luciaiuliaaquila@...> wrote:
>
> Iulia pont sd
>
> This morning a ritual was done for Nashville TN. for the protection of Portunus to keep the water of the living River from spilling over its banks.
>
> Vale bene,
>
> Julia
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "luciaiuliaaquila" <luciaiuliaaquila@> wrote:
> >
> > Iulia Pontifex Quiritibus SPD
> >
> > Today is Portunalia, XVI Kalendas Septembres, a festival in honor of Portunus the god of harbors, gateways, a river God and today commemorates the consecration of His temple in Rome near the Forum Boarium "Portunalia dicta a Portuno, cui eo die aedes in portu Tiberino facta et feriae institutae" (The Portunalia are named after Portunus, to whom on that day a temple in the Tiber port was made and consecrated.)
> >
> > http://www.livius.org/ro-rz/rome/rome_t_portunus.html
> > http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Portunus
> >
> > Optime vale,
> >
> > L. Iulia Aquila
> > Pontifex Novæ Romæ
> > Sacerdos Veneris Genetricis
> > Sacerdos Prima A.Æ
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85174 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2011-08-17
Subject: Roman Virtues: Auctoritas
Gaius Tullius Valerianus Germanicus omnibus in his foris S.P.D.

*Salvete, omnes!*

In consideration of the Roman virtue of *Auctoritas, *a few remarks:

The NR website describes *auctoritas *as a "personal virtue," meaning
that it is, by definition, a virtue attributed to an individual person, not
to the State or similar bodies. Personally, I suspect ancient Romans might
recognize something like *auctoritas *accruing to a body like the Collegium
Pontificum or Collegium Augurum, but only as a reflection of the standing of
its constituent members, not as the body itself. But it is generally a
quality of *individuals.*
*
*
*Auctoritas *seems at first glance antithetical to some ideas of the
modern West. We tend to be highly individualistic and independent, and
resentful or distrustful of "authority" (a pale translation of
*auctoritas *anyway,
as noted before). The Romans were, in their way, I think, no less
distrustful of unearned "authority" in that sense. But Roman *auctoritas *is
*earned *authority - one does not have *auctoritas *by virtue of an
appointment or even winning an election or holding an office. One cannot be
given or take *auctoritas. *It has to be earned, fought for, worked for, and
cannot be taken for granted. As such, it is not incompatible with modern
Western individuality - it is the essence of it, in a way. Personal
achievement, personal excellence, leads to *auctoritas, *and the recognition
of that excellence is what gives the possessor of *auctoritas *the ability
to influence others.

Built into the idea of *auctoritas *is the idea that it needs to
be *recognized.
*It is, in that sense, not just a personal but a *communal *virtue. A person
cannot practice *auctoritas *alone, but only as part of a community. In a
sense, the whole community practices *auctoritas *when they recognize and
defer to the virtuous Roman's *auctoritas. *

These are just a few thoughts . . . anyone else have ideas?

Valete omnes!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85175 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2011-08-17
Subject: PORTVNALIA - ANNO MMDCCLXIV -
C. Petronius Dexter flamen Portunalis Novis Romanis Quiritibus salutem plurimam dicit,

This is the text of the ritual that I made today to Portune:

Portunalia sunt : linguis animisque fauete !

PRAEFATIO -

Iane pater, te hoc ture commovendo
bonas preces precor
uti sies volens propitius
Populo Novo Romano Quiritibus,
Reique Publicae Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
collegio pontificum et augurum,
mihi, domo, familiae!

Portune claviger,
portuum praeses, portarum tutor,
te hac clave igne pianda,
bonas preces precor,
uti sies volens propitius
Populo Novo Romano Quiritibus,
Reique Publicae Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
collegio pontificum et augurum,
mihi, domo, familiae!

PRECATIO -

Portune pater,
portuum praeses, portarum tutor,
te precor, oro et obtestor
uti Res Publica Populi Novi Romani Quiritium
pace, quiete, otio fruatur,
uti iusta consilia
Rei Publicae Populi Novi Romani Quiritium
des, dones, praebeas.

SACRIFICIUM -

Portune pater, o Matris Matutae fili,
clavium custos, portarum praeses, portuum tutor,
uti te vino ommovendo bonas preces precatus sum,
quoius rei ergo macte vino inferio esto!


PIACULUM -

Iane, Portune, Vesta,
Lares, Manes, Penates,
Omnes Di Immortales quocumque nomine:
si quidquam vobis in his sacris cordi non fuit,
hoc vino libando
veniam peto
et vitium meum expio.

------------------------------------------------

--
C. Petronius Dexter
flamen Portunalis Arcoiali sacra fecit
a.d. XVI Kalendas Septembres P. Vllerio C. Equitio coss.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85176 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2011-08-17
Subject: Re: Roman Virtues: Auctoritas
Iulia Tullio omnibusque S.P.D.

Auctoritas, as a spiritual and personal virtue, is the ability to instill confidence in one's capabilities to those around him/her. In this sense it truly would apply to the Pontifical or Augural body or a teacher but also in every facet of life from dealings with one's children to a seller of goods to one who cleans homes for a living.

Vale, et valete,

Julia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gaius Tullius Valerianus <gaius.tullius.valerianus@...> wrote:
>
> Gaius Tullius Valerianus Germanicus omnibus in his foris S.P.D.
>
> *Salvete, omnes!*
>
> In consideration of the Roman virtue of *Auctoritas, *a few remarks:
>
> The NR website describes *auctoritas *as a "personal virtue," meaning
> that it is, by definition, a virtue attributed to an individual person, not
> to the State or similar bodies. Personally, I suspect ancient Romans might
> recognize something like *auctoritas *accruing to a body like the Collegium
> Pontificum or Collegium Augurum, but only as a reflection of the standing of
> its constituent members, not as the body itself. But it is generally a
> quality of *individuals.*
> *
> *
> *Auctoritas *seems at first glance antithetical to some ideas of the
> modern West. We tend to be highly individualistic and independent, and
> resentful or distrustful of "authority" (a pale translation of
> *auctoritas *anyway,
> as noted before). The Romans were, in their way, I think, no less
> distrustful of unearned "authority" in that sense. But Roman *auctoritas *is
> *earned *authority - one does not have *auctoritas *by virtue of an
> appointment or even winning an election or holding an office. One cannot be
> given or take *auctoritas. *It has to be earned, fought for, worked for, and
> cannot be taken for granted. As such, it is not incompatible with modern
> Western individuality - it is the essence of it, in a way. Personal
> achievement, personal excellence, leads to *auctoritas, *and the recognition
> of that excellence is what gives the possessor of *auctoritas *the ability
> to influence others.
>
> Built into the idea of *auctoritas *is the idea that it needs to
> be *recognized.
> *It is, in that sense, not just a personal but a *communal *virtue. A person
> cannot practice *auctoritas *alone, but only as part of a community. In a
> sense, the whole community practices *auctoritas *when they recognize and
> defer to the virtuous Roman's *auctoritas. *
>
> These are just a few thoughts . . . anyone else have ideas?
>
> Valete omnes!
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85177 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2011-08-17
Subject: Re: PORTVNALIA - ANNO MMDCCLXIV -
Iulia Petronio Flaminis Portunalis S.P.D.

Lovely ritual, you have truly honored Portunus.

Vale bene,

Julia

P.S not sure if I got the dative right in the salutation

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Petronius Dexter" <jfarnoud94@...> wrote:
>
> C. Petronius Dexter flamen Portunalis Novis Romanis Quiritibus salutem plurimam dicit,
>
> This is the text of the ritual that I made today to Portune:
>
> Portunalia sunt : linguis animisque fauete !
>
> PRAEFATIO -
>
> Iane pater, te hoc ture commovendo
> bonas preces precor
> uti sies volens propitius
> Populo Novo Romano Quiritibus,
> Reique Publicae Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
> collegio pontificum et augurum,
> mihi, domo, familiae!
>
> Portune claviger,
> portuum praeses, portarum tutor,
> te hac clave igne pianda,
> bonas preces precor,
> uti sies volens propitius
> Populo Novo Romano Quiritibus,
> Reique Publicae Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
> collegio pontificum et augurum,
> mihi, domo, familiae!
>
> PRECATIO -
>
> Portune pater,
> portuum praeses, portarum tutor,
> te precor, oro et obtestor
> uti Res Publica Populi Novi Romani Quiritium
> pace, quiete, otio fruatur,
> uti iusta consilia
> Rei Publicae Populi Novi Romani Quiritium
> des, dones, praebeas.
>
> SACRIFICIUM -
>
> Portune pater, o Matris Matutae fili,
> clavium custos, portarum praeses, portuum tutor,
> uti te vino ommovendo bonas preces precatus sum,
> quoius rei ergo macte vino inferio esto!
>
>
> PIACULUM -
>
> Iane, Portune, Vesta,
> Lares, Manes, Penates,
> Omnes Di Immortales quocumque nomine:
> si quidquam vobis in his sacris cordi non fuit,
> hoc vino libando
> veniam peto
> et vitium meum expio.
>
> ------------------------------------------------
>
> --
> C. Petronius Dexter
> flamen Portunalis Arcoiali sacra fecit
> a.d. XVI Kalendas Septembres P. Vllerio C. Equitio coss.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85178 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2011-08-17
Subject: Re: Roman Virtues: Auctoritas
Gaius Tullius Valerianus Germanicus L. Iuliae Aquilae S.P.D.

Salve, pontifex! I agree with your definition, to a great extent. Thank
you for your thoughts. I see what you mean towards the end of your post . .
. that in a sense *every *Roman has some degree of *Auctoritas . . . *but
some have a much greater or lesser share, and some have it only within
certain limited scopes. It kind of connects to what I was musing about
before, that in a sense, *every *member of the Roman community has a share
in *Auctoritas, *whether in the role of acknowledging someone else's
excellence and achievement, or in having their own acknowledged.

It is an often-forgotten aspect of *Auctoritas *that, as a social
virtue, it only has value if others acknowledge it. And in acknowledging it
in others, one displays a sense of *Auctoritas *oneself.

Vale!

On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 9:53 PM, luciaiuliaaquila <
luciaiuliaaquila@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Iulia Tullio omnibusque S.P.D.
>
> Auctoritas, as a spiritual and personal virtue, is the ability to instill
> confidence in one's capabilities to those around him/her. In this sense it
> truly would apply to the Pontifical or Augural body or a teacher but also in
> every facet of life from dealings with one's children to a seller of goods
> to one who cleans homes for a living.
>
> Vale, et valete,
>
> Julia
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gaius Tullius Valerianus
> <gaius.tullius.valerianus@...> wrote:
> >
> > Gaius Tullius Valerianus Germanicus omnibus in his foris S.P.D.
> >
> > *Salvete, omnes!*
> >
> > In consideration of the Roman virtue of *Auctoritas, *a few remarks:
> >
> > The NR website describes *auctoritas *as a "personal virtue," meaning
> > that it is, by definition, a virtue attributed to an individual person,
> not
> > to the State or similar bodies. Personally, I suspect ancient Romans
> might
> > recognize something like *auctoritas *accruing to a body like the
> Collegium
> > Pontificum or Collegium Augurum, but only as a reflection of the standing
> of
> > its constituent members, not as the body itself. But it is generally a
> > quality of *individuals.*
> > *
> > *
> > *Auctoritas *seems at first glance antithetical to some ideas of the
> > modern West. We tend to be highly individualistic and independent, and
> > resentful or distrustful of "authority" (a pale translation of
> > *auctoritas *anyway,
> > as noted before). The Romans were, in their way, I think, no less
> > distrustful of unearned "authority" in that sense. But Roman *auctoritas
> *is
> > *earned *authority - one does not have *auctoritas *by virtue of an
> > appointment or even winning an election or holding an office. One cannot
> be
> > given or take *auctoritas. *It has to be earned, fought for, worked for,
> and
> > cannot be taken for granted. As such, it is not incompatible with modern
> > Western individuality - it is the essence of it, in a way. Personal
> > achievement, personal excellence, leads to *auctoritas, *and the
> recognition
> > of that excellence is what gives the possessor of *auctoritas *the
> ability
> > to influence others.
> >
> > Built into the idea of *auctoritas *is the idea that it needs to
> > be *recognized.
> > *It is, in that sense, not just a personal but a *communal *virtue. A
> person
> > cannot practice *auctoritas *alone, but only as part of a community. In a
> > sense, the whole community practices *auctoritas *when they recognize and
> > defer to the virtuous Roman's *auctoritas. *
> >
> > These are just a few thoughts . . . anyone else have ideas?
> >
> > Valete omnes!
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85179 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2011-08-17
Subject: "newroman" list issue
Salvete omnes!

I just noticed a potential issue with the "newroman" list to which we
tend to direct new citizens when they join Nova Roma. As far as I can tell,
the list if owned and moderated mostly by noncitizens, mostly of the RPR
group - Caseo Quintilianus, Cn. Marinus, and M. Agricola. In fact, the only
loyal citzens of NR listed as moderators are Cn. Lentulus and C. Caeca.
Should NR be considering a *new* "newroman" list? I am not sure I like the
introduction to NR for new citizens being in the hands of the likes of
Quintilianus, Marinus, and Agricola!

Valete!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85180 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-17
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
Ave,

That is why we have the Forum Hospitilium list for.

Sorry for the misspelling.

Vale,

Sulla

On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 12:38 PM, Gaius Tullius Valerianus <
gaius.tullius.valerianus@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Salvete omnes!
>
> I just noticed a potential issue with the "newroman" list to which we
> tend to direct new citizens when they join Nova Roma. As far as I can tell,
> the list if owned and moderated mostly by noncitizens, mostly of the RPR
> group - Caseo Quintilianus, Cn. Marinus, and M. Agricola. In fact, the only
> loyal citzens of NR listed as moderators are Cn. Lentulus and C. Caeca.
> Should NR be considering a *new* "newroman" list? I am not sure I like the
> introduction to NR for new citizens being in the hands of the likes of
> Quintilianus, Marinus, and Agricola!
>
> Valete!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85181 From: C.Maria Caeca Date: 2011-08-17
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
Salvete!

We are now directing new applicants only to the Hospitum list, since it is
our official list for interested non citizens and new citizens.

Valete!
C. Maria Caeca
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85182 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2011-08-17
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
Ave Sulla!

It was my understanding that the Forum Hospitium was set up for noncitizens
or prospective citizens who want to get a glimpse of NR life (and allows us
to avoid exposing them to too much of our politics and internal strife
before they even get in the door). Once those noncitizens become citizens,
they are invited to join the ML. The newroman list was, in my understanding,
for citizens new to NR. So I think they are *very* different things - Forum
Hospitium for noncitizens, newroman for new citizens.

My issue is that the list for new citizens is in the hands of, well, non
just non-citizens, but traitors who would be tossed from the Tarpeian rock
in Roma Antiqua. At least Lentulus and Caeca are moderators too, and can
make sure that the potential damage is limited, but it seems very worrisome
to me that an official NR list is in the hands of members of a group
adjudged to be an enemy of NR by our Senate!

On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 12:40 PM, Robert Woolwine <robert.woolwine@...
> wrote:

> Ave,
>
> That is why we have the Forum Hospitilium list for.
>
> Sorry for the misspelling.
>
> Vale,
>
> Sulla
>
> On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 12:38 PM, Gaius Tullius Valerianus <
> gaius.tullius.valerianus@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Salvete omnes!
> >
> > I just noticed a potential issue with the "newroman" list to which we
> > tend to direct new citizens when they join Nova Roma. As far as I can
> tell,
> > the list if owned and moderated mostly by noncitizens, mostly of the RPR
> > group - Caseo Quintilianus, Cn. Marinus, and M. Agricola. In fact, the
> only
> > loyal citzens of NR listed as moderators are Cn. Lentulus and C. Caeca.
> > Should NR be considering a *new* "newroman" list? I am not sure I like
> the
> > introduction to NR for new citizens being in the hands of the likes of
> > Quintilianus, Marinus, and Agricola!
> >
> > Valete!
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85183 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2011-08-17
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
Salve Caeca!

Thanks for the information! Excellent! Should we shut down the newroman
list? Or contact lawyers if the RPR owners refuse to shut it down, or at
least take the "Nova Roma" name and logo off the list description? This is a
problem with potential legal consequences . . .


On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 12:45 PM, C.Maria Caeca <c.mariacaeca@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> Salvete!
>
> We are now directing new applicants only to the Hospitum list, since it is
> our official list for interested non citizens and new citizens.
>
> Valete!
> C. Maria Caeca
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85184 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-17
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
Ave,

Nope it is broader. Both non citizens and newbies are directed there if
they want to get their feet wet before going into the ML.

It has taken the place of the New Roman list after the coup attempt last
year.

Respectfully,

Sulla

On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 12:47 PM, Gaius Tullius Valerianus <
gaius.tullius.valerianus@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Ave Sulla!
>
> It was my understanding that the Forum Hospitium was set up for noncitizens
> or prospective citizens who want to get a glimpse of NR life (and allows us
> to avoid exposing them to too much of our politics and internal strife
> before they even get in the door). Once those noncitizens become citizens,
> they are invited to join the ML. The newroman list was, in my
> understanding,
> for citizens new to NR. So I think they are *very* different things - Forum
> Hospitium for noncitizens, newroman for new citizens.
>
> My issue is that the list for new citizens is in the hands of, well, non
> just non-citizens, but traitors who would be tossed from the Tarpeian rock
> in Roma Antiqua. At least Lentulus and Caeca are moderators too, and can
> make sure that the potential damage is limited, but it seems very worrisome
> to me that an official NR list is in the hands of members of a group
> adjudged to be an enemy of NR by our Senate!
>
> On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 12:40 PM, Robert Woolwine <
> robert.woolwine@...
> > wrote:
>
> > Ave,
> >
> > That is why we have the Forum Hospitilium list for.
> >
> > Sorry for the misspelling.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Sulla
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 12:38 PM, Gaius Tullius Valerianus <
> > gaius.tullius.valerianus@...> wrote:
> >
> > > **
> > >
> > >
> > > Salvete omnes!
> > >
> > > I just noticed a potential issue with the "newroman" list to which we
> > > tend to direct new citizens when they join Nova Roma. As far as I can
> > tell,
> > > the list if owned and moderated mostly by noncitizens, mostly of the
> RPR
> > > group - Caseo Quintilianus, Cn. Marinus, and M. Agricola. In fact, the
> > only
> > > loyal citzens of NR listed as moderators are Cn. Lentulus and C. Caeca.
> > > Should NR be considering a *new* "newroman" list? I am not sure I like
> > the
> > > introduction to NR for new citizens being in the hands of the likes of
> > > Quintilianus, Marinus, and Agricola!
> > >
> > > Valete!
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85185 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-17
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
Ave!

I think the Consuls should send an email to the New Roman owners asking them
to remove the incorrect information and adjust the situation. If the owners
decline to make changes then the Senate should be involved. Maybe even
yahoo intervention might be necessary, at least before needing to go down
the attorney route.

Respectfully,

Sulla

On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 12:49 PM, Gaius Tullius Valerianus <
gaius.tullius.valerianus@...> wrote:

> Salve Caeca!
>
> Thanks for the information! Excellent! Should we shut down the newroman
> list? Or contact lawyers if the RPR owners refuse to shut it down, or at
> least take the "Nova Roma" name and logo off the list description? This is
> a
> problem with potential legal consequences . . .
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 12:45 PM, C.Maria Caeca <c.mariacaeca@...
> >wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Salvete!
> >
> > We are now directing new applicants only to the Hospitum list, since it
> is
> > our official list for interested non citizens and new citizens.
> >
> > Valete!
> > C. Maria Caeca
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85186 From: iulius sabinus Date: 2011-08-17
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
SALVE!
 
Applicants to Nova Roma citizenship, until their application is checked (correct name, valid dates, etc) are encouraged to join to Forum Hospitum. When they receive citizenship are encouraged to join to the ML.
 
New Roman list is private list as far I know, therefore is not included in the State official business.
 
VALE,
Sabinus

"Every individual is the architect of his own fortune" - Appius Claudius

From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus <gaius.tullius.valerianus@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 10:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] "newroman" list issue


 
Ave Sulla!

It was my understanding that the Forum Hospitium was set up for noncitizens
or prospective citizens who want to get a glimpse of NR life (and allows us
to avoid exposing them to too much of our politics and internal strife
before they even get in the door). Once those noncitizens become citizens,
they are invited to join the ML. The newroman list was, in my understanding,
for citizens new to NR. So I think they are *very* different things - Forum
Hospitium for noncitizens, newroman for new citizens.

My issue is that the list for new citizens is in the hands of, well, non
just non-citizens, but traitors who would be tossed from the Tarpeian rock
in Roma Antiqua. At least Lentulus and Caeca are moderators too, and can
make sure that the potential damage is limited, but it seems very worrisome
to me that an official NR list is in the hands of members of a group
adjudged to be an enemy of NR by our Senate!

On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 12:40 PM, Robert Woolwine <robert.woolwine@...
> wrote:

> Ave,
>
> That is why we have the Forum Hospitilium list for.
>
> Sorry for the misspelling.
>
> Vale,
>
> Sulla
>
> On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 12:38 PM, Gaius Tullius Valerianus <
> gaius.tullius.valerianus@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Salvete omnes!
> >
> > I just noticed a potential issue with the "newroman" list to which we
> > tend to direct new citizens when they join Nova Roma. As far as I can
> tell,
> > the list if owned and moderated mostly by noncitizens, mostly of the RPR
> > group - Caseo Quintilianus, Cn. Marinus, and M. Agricola. In fact, the
> only
> > loyal citzens of NR listed as moderators are Cn. Lentulus and C. Caeca.
> > Should NR be considering a *new* "newroman" list? I am not sure I like
> the
> > introduction to NR for new citizens being in the hands of the likes of
> > Quintilianus, Marinus, and Agricola!
> >
> > Valete!
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85187 From: C.Maria Caeca Date: 2011-08-17
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
Salve Valeriane!
Actually, the Newroman list did serve that purpose, but it was, and is, I believe, a private list, and not an official NR list. Also, the hospitum list has a broader mandate, again, as I understand it, which would include new citizens, who are invited to join the main list once they have full citizenship, but are not required to leave the Hospitum list when they do so.

As to Newroman, I have made no secret that, when I was new and finding my way around, it was incredibly helpful. However, it has become much more quiet now, so perhaps the Hospitum list can fulfill that function for our newer citizens, and continue to provide assistance and support in a slightly more casual environment.

Vale bene!
C. Maria Caeca

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85188 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2011-08-17
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
Salve Valeriane,
of course, it is a terribly dangerous action to call attention on the fact
that it would be better to use actual literary sources about Roman virtues
instead of dictionary definitions. The danger of having people actually read
the sources should be averted as soon as possible!

vale,
Livia

> Ave Sulla!
>
> It was my understanding that the Forum Hospitium was set up for
> noncitizens
> or prospective citizens who want to get a glimpse of NR life (and allows
> us
> to avoid exposing them to too much of our politics and internal strife
> before they even get in the door). Once those noncitizens become citizens,
> they are invited to join the ML. The newroman list was, in my
> understanding,
> for citizens new to NR. So I think they are *very* different things -
> Forum
> Hospitium for noncitizens, newroman for new citizens.
>
> My issue is that the list for new citizens is in the hands of, well, non
> just non-citizens, but traitors who would be tossed from the Tarpeian rock
> in Roma Antiqua. At least Lentulus and Caeca are moderators too, and can
> make sure that the potential damage is limited, but it seems very
> worrisome
> to me that an official NR list is in the hands of members of a group
> adjudged to be an enemy of NR by our Senate!
>
> On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 12:40 PM, Robert Woolwine
> <robert.woolwine@...
>> wrote:
>
>> Ave,
>>
>> That is why we have the Forum Hospitilium list for.
>>
>> Sorry for the misspelling.
>>
>> Vale,
>>
>> Sulla
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 12:38 PM, Gaius Tullius Valerianus <
>> gaius.tullius.valerianus@...> wrote:
>>
>> > **
>> >
>> >
>> > Salvete omnes!
>> >
>> > I just noticed a potential issue with the "newroman" list to which we
>> > tend to direct new citizens when they join Nova Roma. As far as I can
>> tell,
>> > the list if owned and moderated mostly by noncitizens, mostly of the
>> > RPR
>> > group - Caseo Quintilianus, Cn. Marinus, and M. Agricola. In fact, the
>> only
>> > loyal citzens of NR listed as moderators are Cn. Lentulus and C. Caeca.
>> > Should NR be considering a *new* "newroman" list? I am not sure I like
>> the
>> > introduction to NR for new citizens being in the hands of the likes of
>> > Quintilianus, Marinus, and Agricola!
>> >
>> > Valete!
>> >
>> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85189 From: Belle Morte Statia Date: 2011-08-17
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
Salve Livia,

Well since Valerianus did have an open discussion about Roman virtues, it
can be examined from all angles including literary sources.

You are very knowledgeable yourself Livia, please jump in the discussion and
share some sources especially for our newer citizens.

Vale,
Aeternia

On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 1:48 PM, L. Livia Plauta <livia.plauta@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> Salve Valeriane,
> of course, it is a terribly dangerous action to call attention on the fact
> that it would be better to use actual literary sources about Roman virtues
> instead of dictionary definitions. The danger of having people actually
> read
> the sources should be averted as soon as possible!
>
> vale,
> Livia
>
>
> > Ave Sulla!
> >
> > It was my understanding that the Forum Hospitium was set up for
> > noncitizens
> > or prospective citizens who want to get a glimpse of NR life (and allows
> > us
> > to avoid exposing them to too much of our politics and internal strife
> > before they even get in the door). Once those noncitizens become
> citizens,
> > they are invited to join the ML. The newroman list was, in my
> > understanding,
> > for citizens new to NR. So I think they are *very* different things -
> > Forum
> > Hospitium for noncitizens, newroman for new citizens.
> >
> > My issue is that the list for new citizens is in the hands of, well, non
> > just non-citizens, but traitors who would be tossed from the Tarpeian
> rock
> > in Roma Antiqua. At least Lentulus and Caeca are moderators too, and can
> > make sure that the potential damage is limited, but it seems very
> > worrisome
> > to me that an official NR list is in the hands of members of a group
> > adjudged to be an enemy of NR by our Senate!
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 12:40 PM, Robert Woolwine
> > <robert.woolwine@...
> >> wrote:
> >
> >> Ave,
> >>
> >> That is why we have the Forum Hospitilium list for.
> >>
> >> Sorry for the misspelling.
> >>
> >> Vale,
> >>
> >> Sulla
> >>
> >> On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 12:38 PM, Gaius Tullius Valerianus <
> >> gaius.tullius.valerianus@...> wrote:
> >>
> >> > **
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Salvete omnes!
> >> >
> >> > I just noticed a potential issue with the "newroman" list to which we
> >> > tend to direct new citizens when they join Nova Roma. As far as I can
> >> tell,
> >> > the list if owned and moderated mostly by noncitizens, mostly of the
> >> > RPR
> >> > group - Caseo Quintilianus, Cn. Marinus, and M. Agricola. In fact, the
> >> only
> >> > loyal citzens of NR listed as moderators are Cn. Lentulus and C.
> Caeca.
> >> > Should NR be considering a *new* "newroman" list? I am not sure I like
> >> the
> >> > introduction to NR for new citizens being in the hands of the likes of
> >> > Quintilianus, Marinus, and Agricola!
> >> >
> >> > Valete!
> >> >
> >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>
>
>



--
*"Fortes fortuna iuvat"*


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85190 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2011-08-17
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
Salve Livia,

I teach people to read the original sources in Latin. This is how I
earn my living, So don't presume to lecture me. My point, which you
apparently failed to grasp, is that treating Romanitas like a roleplaying
game or a purely academic exercise is so far beneath us as Nova Romans as to
be an insult to Romanitas. Likewise, my point about the newroman list is
that people who have decided to abandon their oaths to our gods and our
nation *probably *shouldn't be trusted as guides to being new citizens of
our nation. I still count Agricola as a friend, even if he has chosen to
break our laws and was removed as a citizen for it. I thought he was
misguided then and I believe he is misguided now. But his failures are not
the issue. The question is, is the newroman list still an official list of
NR? If so, those who are traitors to NR should not be in charge of it. If it
is not, then the violations of copyright laws and Yahoo terms of service
should cease. Neither of these concern you, unless you are involved in
criminal activity as well!

Vale!

On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 1:48 PM, L. Livia Plauta <livia.plauta@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> Salve Valeriane,
> of course, it is a terribly dangerous action to call attention on the fact
> that it would be better to use actual literary sources about Roman virtues
> instead of dictionary definitions. The danger of having people actually
> read
> the sources should be averted as soon as possible!
>
> vale,
> Livia
>
>
> > Ave Sulla!
> >
> > It was my understanding that the Forum Hospitium was set up for
> > noncitizens
> > or prospective citizens who want to get a glimpse of NR life (and allows
> > us
> > to avoid exposing them to too much of our politics and internal strife
> > before they even get in the door). Once those noncitizens become
> citizens,
> > they are invited to join the ML. The newroman list was, in my
> > understanding,
> > for citizens new to NR. So I think they are *very* different things -
> > Forum
> > Hospitium for noncitizens, newroman for new citizens.
> >
> > My issue is that the list for new citizens is in the hands of, well, non
> > just non-citizens, but traitors who would be tossed from the Tarpeian
> rock
> > in Roma Antiqua. At least Lentulus and Caeca are moderators too, and can
> > make sure that the potential damage is limited, but it seems very
> > worrisome
> > to me that an official NR list is in the hands of members of a group
> > adjudged to be an enemy of NR by our Senate!
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 12:40 PM, Robert Woolwine
> > <robert.woolwine@...
> >> wrote:
> >
> >> Ave,
> >>
> >> That is why we have the Forum Hospitilium list for.
> >>
> >> Sorry for the misspelling.
> >>
> >> Vale,
> >>
> >> Sulla
> >>
> >> On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 12:38 PM, Gaius Tullius Valerianus <
> >> gaius.tullius.valerianus@...> wrote:
> >>
> >> > **
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Salvete omnes!
> >> >
> >> > I just noticed a potential issue with the "newroman" list to which we
> >> > tend to direct new citizens when they join Nova Roma. As far as I can
> >> tell,
> >> > the list if owned and moderated mostly by noncitizens, mostly of the
> >> > RPR
> >> > group - Caseo Quintilianus, Cn. Marinus, and M. Agricola. In fact, the
> >> only
> >> > loyal citzens of NR listed as moderators are Cn. Lentulus and C.
> Caeca.
> >> > Should NR be considering a *new* "newroman" list? I am not sure I like
> >> the
> >> > introduction to NR for new citizens being in the hands of the likes of
> >> > Quintilianus, Marinus, and Agricola!
> >> >
> >> > Valete!
> >> >
> >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85191 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2011-08-17
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica C. Tullio Valeriano Germanico quiritibus bonae
> voluntatis S.P.D.
>
>
>
> Ave Sulla!
>
> It was my understanding that the Forum Hospitium was set up for noncitizens
> or prospective citizens who want to get a glimpse of NR life (and allows us
> to avoid exposing them to too much of our politics and internal strife
> before they even get in the door). Once those noncitizens become citizens,
> they are invited to join the ML.
>
> ATS: Under the new rules for this year, they must be FULL citizens. In
> the past, the ML included prospective citizens, former citizens, tirones, and
> simply other interested parties. The conflicts caused by some of them could
> have been taken care of by banning the offenders rather than wholesale removal
> of anyone but full citizens...and several full citizens who are quiet and
> unknown to the concerned parties were removed, some never to return.
> Brilliant.
>
>
> The newroman list was, in my understanding,
> for citizens new to NR.
>
> ATS: And those interested in becoming citizens, and those long-time
> citizens who more or less served as information sources for the newbies and
> others.
>
> So I think they are *very* different things - Forum
> Hospitium for noncitizens, newroman for new citizens.
>
> My issue is that the list for new citizens is in the hands of, well, non
> just non-citizens, but traitors who would be tossed from the Tarpeian rock
> in Roma Antiqua.
>
> ATS: Haec te pudere debent. Nec GEM nec MLA proditores sunt. Praeterea,
> quoad scio, Marinus particeps RPR non est, et paene sine dubio, esse non vult.
> De Q, nescio, sed cum suffragia prioris anni corrupta et omnia munera data
> fautoribus unius factionis quae feminas, linguas, peregrinos peregrinaque non
> modo flocci facit, sed etiam odit, haud dubium est nonnullis omnia apud NR
> pessum iisse et tempus discedendo pervenisse visum.
>
> At least Lentulus and Caeca are moderators too, and can
> make sure that the potential damage is limited, but it seems very worrisome
> to me that an official NR list is in the hands of members of a group
> adjudged to be an enemy of NR by our Senate!
>
> ATS: Nugas et ineptias! Sine dubio inimici his eos maledicere volunt.
> Spero te veneno talium non infectum.
>
> Vale, et valete.
>
> On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 12:40 PM, Robert Woolwine <robert.woolwine@...
> <mailto:robert.woolwine%40gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>
>> > Ave,
>> >
>> > That is why we have the Forum Hospitilium list for.
>> >
>> > Sorry for the misspelling.
>> >
>> > Vale,
>> >
>> > Sulla
>> >
>> > On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 12:38 PM, Gaius Tullius Valerianus <
>> > gaius.tullius.valerianus@...
>> <mailto:gaius.tullius.valerianus%40gmail.com> > wrote:
>> >
>>> > > **
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Salvete omnes!
>>> > >
>>> > > I just noticed a potential issue with the "newroman" list to which we
>>> > > tend to direct new citizens when they join Nova Roma. As far as I can
>> > tell,
>>> > > the list if owned and moderated mostly by noncitizens, mostly of the RPR
>>> > > group - Caseo Quintilianus, Cn. Marinus, and M. Agricola. In fact, the
>> > only
>>> > > loyal citzens of NR listed as moderators are Cn. Lentulus and C. Caeca.
>>> > > Should NR be considering a *new* "newroman" list? I am not sure I like
>> > the
>>> > > introduction to NR for new citizens being in the hands of the likes of
>>> > > Quintilianus, Marinus, and Agricola!
>>> > >
>>> > > Valete!
>>> > >



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85192 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2011-08-17
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
Gaius Tullius Valerianus Germanicus omnibus in foro, praecipue Scholasticae,
S.P.D.


> > ATS: Haec te pudere debent. Nec GEM nec MLA proditores sunt. Praeterea,
> > quoad scio, Marinus particeps RPR non est, et paene sine dubio, esse non
> vult.
> > De Q, nescio, sed cum suffragia prioris anni corrupta et omnia munera
> data
> > fautoribus unius factionis quae feminas, linguas, peregrinos peregrinaque
> non
> > modo flocci facit, sed etiam odit, haud dubium est nonnullis omnia apud
> NR
> > pessum iisse et tempus discedendo pervenisse visum.
>

Ah, but Scholastica, I am not the one who adjudged the RPR to be our
enemy. That was the Senate, a body to which you belong, not I. But the fate
of those adjudged to be traitors in Roma Antiqua is well known. So take it
up with the Senate. Not with me. I merely state the facts. Now, I am (or
was, anyway) friendly with Agricola, and it saddens me that he chose the
course he did. But he did. Facts are facts.
As for the others, well, I don't know them so well, and I am not
friends of theirs. Quintilianus is the "founder" or RPR, is he not? So that
speaks for itself, according to the Senate. I don't know if Marinus is a
member of RPR or not - and he did avoid direct responsibility in the
attempted coup to overthrow the Roman government last year, even though it
was he whom the plotters intended to make dictator - but in Roma Antiqua,
that might have been enough. We are more enlightened today, perhaps, but my
point is that Roma Antiqua would not have been so kind to these fellows as
we are today.

> At least Lentulus and Caeca are moderators too, and can
> > make sure that the potential damage is limited, but it seems very
> worrisome
> > to me that an official NR list is in the hands of members of a group
> > adjudged to be an enemy of NR by our Senate!
> >
> > ATS: Nugas et ineptias! Sine dubio inimici his eos maledicere volunt.
> > Spero te veneno talium non infectum.
>

Really? You mean there is not an SCU in place declaring it so, and
causing Piscinus and Agricola to be removed from our citizenry? I imagined
that you folks in the Senate did this? My feverish imagination has been
working overtime!
I thought you passed that SCU . . .

Now, please understand me, dear cousin, and everyone else following
this thread - I am merely pointing out the facts as they stand. I rendered
no opinion or judgement on those facts. Are the folks who own or run the
newroman list considered a problem for NR? According to the SCU, yes, if
they're in RPR. Are they traitors? If they swore oaths to NR and then
violated them, then yes, they are. Was the penalty for treason in ancient
Rome to be flung from the Tarpeian rock? Yes, it was. Facts.* *
Do *I personally *want to see this happen to these individuals? No, I
think that would be barbaric. But actions have consequences, and these
people face consequences for their acts. One of the consequences is that
they have no place assisting new citizens of NR get acclimated, since they
are no longer citizens themselves, and 2 of them are *personae non gratae *for
their participation in RPR. Marinus, on the other hand, could come back at
any time . . . but he might face prosecution for his alleged role in the
coup, so I imagine he will not.

Now to the point - either the newroman list is still official, or it is not.
Black and white, no shades of grey, no hemming, no hedging, no hiding behind
other languages so that the majority of the people cannot follow. Yes or no.
If it IS, then non-citizens ought not to be running the list. If it IS NOT,
then the current owners need to conform to copyright laws and Yahoo terms of
service, or there are penalties prescribed by law and by the Yahoo terms of
service. That's all.

The citizens of Nova Roma know me. They know that I stand for following the
law, and doing what is right. It is not right to break our laws, or Yahoo's
rules. It is not right to violate your sworn oath, or to betray your
country. It is not right to illegally assume the dictatorship, or seize
control of the government illegally (and to Marinus' credit, he refused to
do so - but he still left).

Vale, cousin Scholastica, et valete omnes!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85193 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-17
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
Ave!

When one looks in the dictionary under the word COWARD....one will see the
picture of Scholastica.

Vale,

Sulla

On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 2:44 PM, A. Tullia Scholastica <fororom@...
> wrote:

> **
>
>
> >
> > A. Tullia Scholastica C. Tullio Valeriano Germanico quiritibus bonae
> > voluntatis S.P.D.
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Ave Sulla!
> >
> > It was my understanding that the Forum Hospitium was set up for
> noncitizens
> > or prospective citizens who want to get a glimpse of NR life (and allows
> us
> > to avoid exposing them to too much of our politics and internal strife
> > before they even get in the door). Once those noncitizens become
> citizens,
> > they are invited to join the ML.
> >
> > ATS: Under the new rules for this year, they must be FULL citizens. In
> > the past, the ML included prospective citizens, former citizens, tirones,
> and
> > simply other interested parties. The conflicts caused by some of them
> could
> > have been taken care of by banning the offenders rather than wholesale
> removal
> > of anyone but full citizens...and several full citizens who are quiet and
> > unknown to the concerned parties were removed, some never to return.
> > Brilliant.
> >
> >
> > The newroman list was, in my understanding,
> > for citizens new to NR.
> >
> > ATS: And those interested in becoming citizens, and those long-time
> > citizens who more or less served as information sources for the newbies
> and
> > others.
> >
> > So I think they are *very* different things - Forum
> > Hospitium for noncitizens, newroman for new citizens.
> >
> > My issue is that the list for new citizens is in the hands of, well, non
> > just non-citizens, but traitors who would be tossed from the Tarpeian
> rock
> > in Roma Antiqua.
> >
> > ATS: Haec te pudere debent. Nec GEM nec MLA proditores sunt. Praeterea,
> > quoad scio, Marinus particeps RPR non est, et paene sine dubio, esse non
> vult.
> > De Q, nescio, sed cum suffragia prioris anni corrupta et omnia munera
> data
> > fautoribus unius factionis quae feminas, linguas, peregrinos peregrinaque
> non
> > modo flocci facit, sed etiam odit, haud dubium est nonnullis omnia apud
> NR
> > pessum iisse et tempus discedendo pervenisse visum.
>
> >
> > At least Lentulus and Caeca are moderators too, and can
> > make sure that the potential damage is limited, but it seems very
> worrisome
> > to me that an official NR list is in the hands of members of a group
> > adjudged to be an enemy of NR by our Senate!
> >
> > ATS: Nugas et ineptias! Sine dubio inimici his eos maledicere volunt.
> > Spero te veneno talium non infectum.
> >
> > Vale, et valete.
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 12:40 PM, Robert Woolwine <
> robert.woolwine@...
> > <mailto:robert.woolwine%40gmail.com>
>
> >> > wrote:
> >
> >> > Ave,
> >> >
> >> > That is why we have the Forum Hospitilium list for.
> >> >
> >> > Sorry for the misspelling.
> >> >
> >> > Vale,
> >> >
> >> > Sulla
> >> >
> >> > On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 12:38 PM, Gaius Tullius Valerianus <
> >> > gaius.tullius.valerianus@...
> >> <mailto:gaius.tullius.valerianus%40gmail.com> > wrote:
> >> >
> >>> > > **
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Salvete omnes!
> >>> > >
> >>> > > I just noticed a potential issue with the "newroman" list to which
> we
> >>> > > tend to direct new citizens when they join Nova Roma. As far as I
> can
> >> > tell,
> >>> > > the list if owned and moderated mostly by noncitizens, mostly of
> the RPR
> >>> > > group - Caseo Quintilianus, Cn. Marinus, and M. Agricola. In fact,
> the
> >> > only
> >>> > > loyal citzens of NR listed as moderators are Cn. Lentulus and C.
> Caeca.
> >>> > > Should NR be considering a *new* "newroman" list? I am not sure I
> like
> >> > the
> >>> > > introduction to NR for new citizens being in the hands of the likes
> of
> >>> > > Quintilianus, Marinus, and Agricola!
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Valete!
> >>> > >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85194 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2011-08-17
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica C. Tullio Valeriano Germanico Quiritibus bonae
> voluntatis (et tantum bonae voluntatis) S.P.D.
>
>
>
> Gaius Tullius Valerianus Germanicus omnibus in foro, praecipue Scholasticae,
> S.P.D.
>
>>> > > ATS: Haec te pudere debent. Nec GEM nec MLA proditores sunt. Praeterea,
>>> > > quoad scio, Marinus particeps RPR non est, et paene sine dubio, esse non
>> > vult.
>>> > > De Q, nescio, sed cum suffragia prioris anni corrupta et omnia munera
>> > data
>>> > > fautoribus unius factionis quae feminas, linguas, peregrinos
>>> peregrinaque
>> > non
>>> > > modo flocci facit, sed etiam odit, haud dubium est nonnullis omnia apud
>> > NR
>>> > > pessum iisse et tempus discedendo pervenisse visum.
>> >
>
> Ah, but Scholastica, I am not the one who adjudged the RPR to be our
> enemy. That was the Senate, a body to which you belong, not I.
>
> ATS2: Ah, but I did not vote for this nonsense. Since the Senate is
> otherwise composed of members of the faction formerly known as Boni, my vote
> carries very little weight. In any case, the vote of the Senate is
> irrelevant; the Senate could vote that Obama was a blue-eyed Swede, but that
> does not make him one.
>
> But the fate
> of those adjudged to be traitors in Roma Antiqua is well known. So take it
> up with the Senate. Not with me. I merely state the facts. Now, I am (or
> was, anyway) friendly with Agricola, and it saddens me that he chose the
> course he did. But he did. Facts are facts.
>
> ATS2: Well, maybe they are not. Maybe things have been presented to you
> in a way which is not at all factual.
>
>
> As for the others, well, I don't know them so well, and I am not
> friends of theirs. Quintilianus is the "founder" or RPR, is he not? So that
> speaks for itself, according to the Senate. I don't know if Marinus is a
> member of RPR or not
>
> ATS2: So far as I know (as above), he is not, nor does he wish to be.
> Unlike you, I do know Marinus; I have met him several times. He has his
> flaws, as do we all, but this paranoia seeping over you is unjustified.
>
> - and he did avoid direct responsibility in the
> attempted coup to overthrow the Roman government last year,
>
> ATS2: There was no coup to overthrow the government of NR.
>
> even though it
> was he whom the plotters intended to make dictator -
>
> ATS2: As you may recall, the government was totally paralyzed last year
> due to the machinations of Piscinus and Albucius. We could not hold a
> legitimate meeting of the Senate, we could not hold an election, we could not
> do anything because those two were at each other¹s throats. The wisest course
> out of this mess was to have a dictatorship...a ROMAN dictatorship, not a
> modern one, one limited to six months. Marinus was elected / appointed
> dictator by the Senate (if I remember correctly), but the usual troublemakers
> went screaming to daddy and decided that they really didn¹t like government
> unless they held all of the offices and could keep anything useful from
> getting done (you know, like getting a genuine IT fix, getting JSTOR, that
> sort of thing).
>
>
> but in Roma Antiqua,
> that might have been enough. We are more enlightened today, perhaps, but my
> point is that Roma Antiqua would not have been so kind to these fellows as
> we are today.
>
>> > At least Lentulus and Caeca are moderators too, and can
>>> > > make sure that the potential damage is limited, but it seems very
>> > worrisome
>>> > > to me that an official NR list is in the hands of members of a group
>>> > > adjudged to be an enemy of NR by our Senate!
>>> > >
>>> > > ATS: Nugas et ineptias! Sine dubio inimici his eos maledicere volunt.
>>> > > Spero te veneno talium non infectum.
>> >
>
> Really? You mean there is not an SCU in place declaring it so,
>
>
> ATS2: Just maybe that SCU was railroaded by your landlord and his pals.
> Unless it reflects actual fact, its content is irrelevant. What did Agricola
> do, anyway? Why was RPR deemed hostile? I see no reason to consider it as
> such. Other organizations have formed along the lines of NR (SVR, etc.), but
> suddenly this particular one is a worse threat than Communism in 1950.
>
> and
> causing Piscinus and Agricola to be removed from our citizenry? I imagined
> that you folks in the Senate did this?
>
>
> ATS2: I sure didn¹t. When the entire government is in the hands of
> paranoiacs who deem everyone who does not share their narrow vision as
> enemies, one may expect that sort of thing.
>
>
> My feverish imagination has been
> working overtime!
> I thought you passed that SCU . . .
>
> ATS2: Government by SCU seems popular these days. It¹s easier than doing
> things the right way.
>
> Now, please understand me, dear cousin, and everyone else following
> this thread - I am merely pointing out the facts as they stand. I rendered
> no opinion or judgement on those facts. Are the folks who own or run the
> newroman list considered a problem for NR? According to the SCU, yes, if
> they're in RPR.
>
> ATS2: It¹s my understanding that mere membership in the RPR was not
> supposed to be an issue, though of course there are those who will twist
> anything into any form they like.
>
> Are they traitors?
>
> ATS2: Does leaving an organization constitute treachery? Was I a traitor
> when I left CAAS because I was in a different area?
>
>
> If they swore oaths to NR and then
> violated them, then yes, they are.
>
> ATS2: What oaths?
>
> Was the penalty for treason in ancient
> Rome to be flung from the Tarpeian rock? Yes, it was. Facts.* *
> Do *I personally *want to see this happen to these individuals? No, I
> think that would be barbaric. But actions have consequences, and these
> people face consequences for their acts. One of the consequences is that
> they have no place assisting new citizens of NR get acclimated, since they
> are no longer citizens themselves, and 2 of them are *personae non gratae *for
> their participation in RPR. Marinus, on the other hand, could come back at
> any time . . . but he might face prosecution for his alleged role in the
> coup, so I imagine he will not.
>
> ATS2: There was no coup. Maybe there was a plan to get things moving
> again, but I wasn¹t a party to any of this, so I don¹t know. In any case,
> there is nothing wrong with a Roman dictatorship when circumstances merit. It
> seems that Vedius held at least one (if not more) of them.
>
> Now to the point - either the newroman list is still official, or it is not.
>
> ATS2: So far as I know, NewRoman has never been official. If so, it
> surely has not been of late...before last year.
>
>
> Black and white, no shades of grey, no hemming, no hedging, no hiding behind
> other languages so that the majority of the people cannot follow.
>
> ATS2: If you are referring to Latin, everyone here should be able to read
> simple Latin. You, as a teacher thereof, should stand up for that. As in the
> Marines, there¹s Yes, ma¹am, Yes, sir, No, ma¹am, No, sir, and No excuse,
> Ma¹am / Sir. Medical conditions which preclude membership in the Marines are
> the only exception; those xenophobic quondam Boni are not exempted.
>
>
> Yes or no.
> If it IS, then non-citizens ought not to be running the list.
>
> ATS2: And if it were, unsuitable citizens should not be running the
> list...unsuitable citizens such as some who were proposed for this. It is far
> more important that honorable people be running any list in any academic field
> than it is for current members of NR to manage Roman-related lists.
>
>
>
> If it IS NOT,
> then the current owners need to conform to copyright laws
>
> ATS2: Copyright laws? What does that have to do with the price of tea in
> China? How is anyone on NewRoman violating the copyright laws?
>
>
>
> and Yahoo terms of
> service,
>
> ATS2: Ditto. What relevance do the Yahoo ToS have to do with this? Has
> anyone done what was repeatedly done on the ML in the past, things which are
> harmful to minors as well as others?
>
>
> or there are penalties prescribed by law and by the Yahoo terms of
> service. That's all.
>
> The citizens of Nova Roma know me. They know that I stand for following the
> law, and doing what is right. It is not right to break our laws, or Yahoo's
> rules.
>
> ATS2: The citizens of Nova Roma know me, too. I stand for a law higher
> than the one made in legislatures. Yahoo¹s rules have been broken repeatedly
> by those supposedly upstanding pals of yours, and so has the moral law, which
> is far more important than the rules of Yahoo or anything else. Those who are
> stuck at Kohlberg 4 don¹t have any authority over those who live at a higher
> plane.
>
>
> It is not right to violate your sworn oath, or to betray your
> country. It is not right to illegally assume the dictatorship,
>
> ATS2: Yes, but was this instance illegal? Or unjustified? You like
> governmental paralysis? NR has no government to speak of at present.
>
> or seize
> control of the government illegally (and to Marinus' credit, he refused to
> do so - but he still left).
>
> ATS2: Marinus left for a reason entirely unrelated to this legalistic
> nonsense which occupies so much mental effort on the part of the quondam Boni.
>
> Vale, cousin Scholastica, et valete omnes!
>
> Vale, cousin Valeriane, et valete.
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85195 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-17
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
Ave,

Scholastica, I think you need to see a doctor because you seem to be
suffering from Alhzimers or Dementia because your short term memory loss of
last year is just so astounding that I fear for your health.

Vale,

Sulla

On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 7:45 PM, A. Tullia Scholastica <fororom@...
> wrote:

> **
>
>
> >
> > A. Tullia Scholastica C. Tullio Valeriano Germanico Quiritibus bonae
> > voluntatis (et tantum bonae voluntatis) S.P.D.
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Gaius Tullius Valerianus Germanicus omnibus in foro, praecipue
> Scholasticae,
> > S.P.D.
> >
> >>> > > ATS: Haec te pudere debent. Nec GEM nec MLA proditores sunt.
> Praeterea,
> >>> > > quoad scio, Marinus particeps RPR non est, et paene sine dubio,
> esse non
> >> > vult.
> >>> > > De Q, nescio, sed cum suffragia prioris anni corrupta et omnia
> munera
> >> > data
> >>> > > fautoribus unius factionis quae feminas, linguas, peregrinos
> >>> peregrinaque
> >> > non
> >>> > > modo flocci facit, sed etiam odit, haud dubium est nonnullis omnia
> apud
> >> > NR
> >>> > > pessum iisse et tempus discedendo pervenisse visum.
> >> >
> >
> > Ah, but Scholastica, I am not the one who adjudged the RPR to be our
> > enemy. That was the Senate, a body to which you belong, not I.
> >
> > ATS2: Ah, but I did not vote for this nonsense. Since the Senate is
> > otherwise composed of members of the faction formerly known as Boni, my
> vote
> > carries very little weight. In any case, the vote of the Senate is
> > irrelevant; the Senate could vote that Obama was a blue-eyed Swede, but
> that
> > does not make him one.
>
> >
> > But the fate
> > of those adjudged to be traitors in Roma Antiqua is well known. So take
> it
> > up with the Senate. Not with me. I merely state the facts. Now, I am (or
> > was, anyway) friendly with Agricola, and it saddens me that he chose the
> > course he did. But he did. Facts are facts.
> >
> > ATS2: Well, maybe they are not. Maybe things have been presented to you
> > in a way which is not at all factual.
>
> >
> >
> > As for the others, well, I don't know them so well, and I am not
> > friends of theirs. Quintilianus is the "founder" or RPR, is he not? So
> that
> > speaks for itself, according to the Senate. I don't know if Marinus is a
> > member of RPR or not
> >
> > ATS2: So far as I know (as above), he is not, nor does he wish to be.
> > Unlike you, I do know Marinus; I have met him several times. He has his
> > flaws, as do we all, but this paranoia seeping over you is unjustified.
>
> >
> > - and he did avoid direct responsibility in the
> > attempted coup to overthrow the Roman government last year,
> >
> > ATS2: There was no coup to overthrow the government of NR.
>
> >
> > even though it
> > was he whom the plotters intended to make dictator -
> >
> > ATS2: As you may recall, the government was totally paralyzed last year
> > due to the machinations of Piscinus and Albucius. We could not hold a
> > legitimate meeting of the Senate, we could not hold an election, we could
> not
> > do anything because those two were at each other�s throats. The wisest
> course
> > out of this mess was to have a dictatorship...a ROMAN dictatorship, not a
> > modern one, one limited to six months. Marinus was elected / appointed
> > dictator by the Senate (if I remember correctly), but the usual
> troublemakers
> > went screaming to daddy and decided that they really didn�t like
> government
> > unless they held all of the offices and could keep anything useful from
> > getting done (you know, like getting a genuine IT fix, getting JSTOR,
> that
> > sort of thing).
>
> >
> >
> > but in Roma Antiqua,
> > that might have been enough. We are more enlightened today, perhaps, but
> my
> > point is that Roma Antiqua would not have been so kind to these fellows
> as
> > we are today.
> >
> >> > At least Lentulus and Caeca are moderators too, and can
> >>> > > make sure that the potential damage is limited, but it seems very
> >> > worrisome
> >>> > > to me that an official NR list is in the hands of members of a
> group
> >>> > > adjudged to be an enemy of NR by our Senate!
> >>> > >
> >>> > > ATS: Nugas et ineptias! Sine dubio inimici his eos maledicere
> volunt.
> >>> > > Spero te veneno talium non infectum.
> >> >
> >
> > Really? You mean there is not an SCU in place declaring it so,
> >
> >
> > ATS2: Just maybe that SCU was railroaded by your landlord and his pals.
> > Unless it reflects actual fact, its content is irrelevant. What did
> Agricola
> > do, anyway? Why was RPR deemed hostile? I see no reason to consider it as
> > such. Other organizations have formed along the lines of NR (SVR, etc.),
> but
> > suddenly this particular one is a worse threat than Communism in 1950.
>
> >
> > and
> > causing Piscinus and Agricola to be removed from our citizenry? I
> imagined
> > that you folks in the Senate did this?
> >
> >
> > ATS2: I sure didn�t. When the entire government is in the hands of
> > paranoiacs who deem everyone who does not share their narrow vision as
> > enemies, one may expect that sort of thing.
>
> >
> >
> > My feverish imagination has been
> > working overtime!
> > I thought you passed that SCU . . .
> >
> > ATS2: Government by SCU seems popular these days. It�s easier than doing
> > things the right way.
>
> >
> > Now, please understand me, dear cousin, and everyone else following
> > this thread - I am merely pointing out the facts as they stand. I
> rendered
> > no opinion or judgement on those facts. Are the folks who own or run the
> > newroman list considered a problem for NR? According to the SCU, yes, if
> > they're in RPR.
> >
> > ATS2: It�s my understanding that mere membership in the RPR was not
> > supposed to be an issue, though of course there are those who will twist
> > anything into any form they like.
> >
> > Are they traitors?
> >
> > ATS2: Does leaving an organization constitute treachery? Was I a traitor
> > when I left CAAS because I was in a different area?
>
> >
> >
> > If they swore oaths to NR and then
> > violated them, then yes, they are.
> >
> > ATS2: What oaths?
>
> >
> > Was the penalty for treason in ancient
> > Rome to be flung from the Tarpeian rock? Yes, it was. Facts.* *
> > Do *I personally *want to see this happen to these individuals? No, I
> > think that would be barbaric. But actions have consequences, and these
> > people face consequences for their acts. One of the consequences is that
> > they have no place assisting new citizens of NR get acclimated, since
> they
> > are no longer citizens themselves, and 2 of them are *personae non gratae
> *for
> > their participation in RPR. Marinus, on the other hand, could come back
> at
> > any time . . . but he might face prosecution for his alleged role in the
> > coup, so I imagine he will not.
> >
> > ATS2: There was no coup. Maybe there was a plan to get things moving
> > again, but I wasn�t a party to any of this, so I don�t know. In any case,
> > there is nothing wrong with a Roman dictatorship when circumstances
> merit. It
> > seems that Vedius held at least one (if not more) of them.
>
> >
> > Now to the point - either the newroman list is still official, or it is
> not.
> >
> > ATS2: So far as I know, NewRoman has never been official. If so, it
> > surely has not been of late...before last year.
>
> >
> >
> > Black and white, no shades of grey, no hemming, no hedging, no hiding
> behind
> > other languages so that the majority of the people cannot follow.
> >
> > ATS2: If you are referring to Latin, everyone here should be able to read
> > simple Latin. You, as a teacher thereof, should stand up for that. As in
> the
> > Marines, there�s Yes, ma�am, Yes, sir, No, ma�am, No, sir, and No excuse,
> > Ma�am / Sir. Medical conditions which preclude membership in the Marines
> are
> > the only exception; those xenophobic quondam Boni are not exempted.
>
> >
> >
> > Yes or no.
> > If it IS, then non-citizens ought not to be running the list.
> >
> > ATS2: And if it were, unsuitable citizens should not be running the
> > list...unsuitable citizens such as some who were proposed for this. It is
> far
> > more important that honorable people be running any list in any academic
> field
> > than it is for current members of NR to manage Roman-related lists.
>
> >
> >
> >
> > If it IS NOT,
> > then the current owners need to conform to copyright laws
> >
> > ATS2: Copyright laws? What does that have to do with the price of tea in
> > China? How is anyone on NewRoman violating the copyright laws?
>
> >
> >
> >
> > and Yahoo terms of
> > service,
> >
> > ATS2: Ditto. What relevance do the Yahoo ToS have to do with this? Has
> > anyone done what was repeatedly done on the ML in the past, things which
> are
> > harmful to minors as well as others?
>
> >
> >
> > or there are penalties prescribed by law and by the Yahoo terms of
> > service. That's all.
> >
> > The citizens of Nova Roma know me. They know that I stand for following
> the
> > law, and doing what is right. It is not right to break our laws, or
> Yahoo's
> > rules.
> >
> > ATS2: The citizens of Nova Roma know me, too. I stand for a law higher
> > than the one made in legislatures. Yahoo�s rules have been broken
> repeatedly
> > by those supposedly upstanding pals of yours, and so has the moral law,
> which
> > is far more important than the rules of Yahoo or anything else. Those who
> are
> > stuck at Kohlberg 4 don�t have any authority over those who live at a
> higher
> > plane.
> >
> >
> > It is not right to violate your sworn oath, or to betray your
> > country. It is not right to illegally assume the dictatorship,
> >
> > ATS2: Yes, but was this instance illegal? Or unjustified? You like
> > governmental paralysis? NR has no government to speak of at present.
>
> >
> > or seize
> > control of the government illegally (and to Marinus' credit, he refused
> to
> > do so - but he still left).
> >
> > ATS2: Marinus left for a reason entirely unrelated to this legalistic
> > nonsense which occupies so much mental effort on the part of the quondam
> Boni.
>
> >
> > Vale, cousin Scholastica, et valete omnes!
> >
> > Vale, cousin Valeriane, et valete.
>
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85196 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2011-08-18
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
C. Petronius Dexter C. Valeriano s.p.d.,

>>>> It was my understanding that the Forum Hospitium was set up for noncitizens or prospective citizens who want to get a glimpse of NR life (and allows us to avoid exposing them to too much of our politics and internal strife before they even get in the door). Once those noncitizens become citizens, they are invited to join the ML. The newroman list was, in my understanding, for citizens new to NR. So I think they are *very* different things - Forum Hospitium for noncitizens, newroman for new citizens.<<<

In fact you are speaking about 3 groups. The ML is for NR citizens, even applying citizens, of course; forum hospitum is for non citizens (id est former citizens and curious people about Nova Roma and/or awaiting censorial approval) and also for citizens. The new citizens forum is ancient, had a link on the main page of NR, but I do not know for what it was created.

Optime vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
a. d. XV Kalendas Septembres P. Vllerio C. Equitio coss.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85197 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2011-08-18
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
>
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica C. Petronio Dextro quiritibus bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
>
>
> C. Petronius Dexter C. Valeriano s.p.d.,
>
>>>>> >>>> It was my understanding that the Forum Hospitium was set up for
>>>>> noncitizens or prospective citizens who want to get a glimpse of NR life
>>>>> (and allows us to avoid exposing them to too much of our politics and
>>>>> internal strife before they even get in the door). Once those noncitizens
>>>>> become citizens, they are invited to join the ML. The newroman list was,
>>>>> in my understanding, for citizens new to NR. So I think they are *very*
>>>>> different things - Forum Hospitium for noncitizens, newroman for new
>>>>> citizens.<<<
>
> In fact you are speaking about 3 groups. The ML is for NR citizens, even
> applying citizens, of course;
>
> ATS: Under this year¹s rules and those enforced at the end of last year,
> probationary citizens and prospective citizens are banned from the ML.
>
>
> forum hospitum is for non citizens (id est former citizens and curious people
> about Nova Roma and/or awaiting censorial approval) and also for citizens. The
> new citizens forum is ancient, had a link on the main page of NR, but I do not
> know for what it was created.
>
> ATS: NewRoman was created to help new citizens, and did a fine job of
> that for quite some time...so long as the prospective citizen spoke English.
> Now, if the prospective citizen wrote in Latin or any language other than
> English, there were complaints from those who think that English is the only
> world language and that any others must be translated into English. That, of
> course, is less than helpful to those who are not native English speakers,
> particularly those who are not fluent in English, but then certain parties
> hate all such individuals, and would prefer that they leave NR to the Yankees.
> However, there are several experienced citizens on NewRoman, and new citizens
> used to ask very meaningful questions there, and get them answered ...
> something I have not really seen on Hospitum. Nonetheless, the ugly American
> view on language was less than helpful to those who are not fluent in English,
> particularly to those whose languages are unusual, and who therefore resorted
> to Latin for communication purposes. Some among us seem to think that Latin is
> fossilized, and exists only in the likes of Caesar, Cicero, Livy, and Tacitus,
> whereas the more enlightened among us are well aware that there are many
> people who speak Latin and use it to communicate with others whose native
> tongue is unknown to them. We offer ample opportunities to rectify a lack of
> knowledge of Latin; we teach Latin, often to those who have forgotten their
> school instruction or whose schools did not offer Latin, and have several
> students enrolled for the Grammatica courses which begin later this month and
> for the Sermo ones which start in September. In so doing, we also disabuse
> anyone of the foolish notion that Latin is fossilized. Ancient Egyptian is;
> Latin isn¹t.
>
> Optime vale.
>
> C. Petronius Dexter
> Arcoiali scribebat
> a. d. XV Kalendas Septembres P. Vllerio C. Equitio coss.

Optimé valé.
>
>
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85198 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2011-08-18
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
L. Livia Plauta A. Tulliae Scholasticae omnibus sal.

It's good to have someone who never tires of giving a more objective version
of last year's facts and who is actually able to apply common sense. Gratias
ago, Scholastica!

Optime vale,
Livia

>
> A. Tullia Scholastica C. Tullio Valeriano Germanico Quiritibus bonae
> voluntatis (et tantum bonae voluntatis) S.P.D.
>
>
>
> Gaius Tullius Valerianus Germanicus omnibus in foro, praecipue
> Scholasticae,
> S.P.D.
>
>>> > > ATS: Haec te pudere debent. Nec GEM nec MLA proditores sunt.
>>> > > Praeterea,
>>> > > quoad scio, Marinus particeps RPR non est, et paene sine dubio, esse
>>> > > non
>> > vult.
>>> > > De Q, nescio, sed cum suffragia prioris anni corrupta et omnia
>>> > > munera
>> > data
>>> > > fautoribus unius factionis quae feminas, linguas, peregrinos
>>> peregrinaque
>> > non
>>> > > modo flocci facit, sed etiam odit, haud dubium est nonnullis omnia
>>> > > apud
>> > NR
>>> > > pessum iisse et tempus discedendo pervenisse visum.
>> >
>
> Ah, but Scholastica, I am not the one who adjudged the RPR to be our
> enemy. That was the Senate, a body to which you belong, not I.
>
> ATS2: Ah, but I did not vote for this nonsense. Since the Senate is
> otherwise composed of members of the faction formerly known as Boni, my
> vote
> carries very little weight. In any case, the vote of the Senate is
> irrelevant; the Senate could vote that Obama was a blue-eyed Swede, but
> that
> does not make him one.
>
> But the fate
> of those adjudged to be traitors in Roma Antiqua is well known. So take it
> up with the Senate. Not with me. I merely state the facts. Now, I am (or
> was, anyway) friendly with Agricola, and it saddens me that he chose the
> course he did. But he did. Facts are facts.
>
> ATS2: Well, maybe they are not. Maybe things have been presented to
> you
> in a way which is not at all factual.
>
>
> As for the others, well, I don't know them so well, and I am not
> friends of theirs. Quintilianus is the "founder" or RPR, is he not? So
> that
> speaks for itself, according to the Senate. I don't know if Marinus is a
> member of RPR or not
>
> ATS2: So far as I know (as above), he is not, nor does he wish to be.
> Unlike you, I do know Marinus; I have met him several times. He has his
> flaws, as do we all, but this paranoia seeping over you is unjustified.
>
> - and he did avoid direct responsibility in the
> attempted coup to overthrow the Roman government last year,
>
> ATS2: There was no coup to overthrow the government of NR.
>
> even though it
> was he whom the plotters intended to make dictator -
>
> ATS2: As you may recall, the government was totally paralyzed last
> year
> due to the machinations of Piscinus and Albucius. We could not hold a
> legitimate meeting of the Senate, we could not hold an election, we could
> not
> do anything because those two were at each other¹s throats. The wisest
> course
> out of this mess was to have a dictatorship...a ROMAN dictatorship, not a
> modern one, one limited to six months. Marinus was elected / appointed
> dictator by the Senate (if I remember correctly), but the usual
> troublemakers
> went screaming to daddy and decided that they really didn¹t like
> government
> unless they held all of the offices and could keep anything useful from
> getting done (you know, like getting a genuine IT fix, getting JSTOR, that
> sort of thing).
>
>
> but in Roma Antiqua,
> that might have been enough. We are more enlightened today, perhaps, but
> my
> point is that Roma Antiqua would not have been so kind to these fellows as
> we are today.
>
>> > At least Lentulus and Caeca are moderators too, and can
>>> > > make sure that the potential damage is limited, but it seems very
>> > worrisome
>>> > > to me that an official NR list is in the hands of members of a group
>>> > > adjudged to be an enemy of NR by our Senate!
>>> > >
>>> > > ATS: Nugas et ineptias! Sine dubio inimici his eos maledicere
>>> > > volunt.
>>> > > Spero te veneno talium non infectum.
>> >
>
> Really? You mean there is not an SCU in place declaring it so,
>
>
> ATS2: Just maybe that SCU was railroaded by your landlord and his
> pals.
> Unless it reflects actual fact, its content is irrelevant. What did
> Agricola
> do, anyway? Why was RPR deemed hostile? I see no reason to consider it
> as
> such. Other organizations have formed along the lines of NR (SVR, etc.),
> but
> suddenly this particular one is a worse threat than Communism in 1950.
>
> and
> causing Piscinus and Agricola to be removed from our citizenry? I imagined
> that you folks in the Senate did this?
>
>
> ATS2: I sure didn¹t. When the entire government is in the hands of
> paranoiacs who deem everyone who does not share their narrow vision as
> enemies, one may expect that sort of thing.
>
>
> My feverish imagination has been
> working overtime!
> I thought you passed that SCU . . .
>
> ATS2: Government by SCU seems popular these days. It¹s easier than
> doing
> things the right way.
>
> Now, please understand me, dear cousin, and everyone else following
> this thread - I am merely pointing out the facts as they stand. I rendered
> no opinion or judgement on those facts. Are the folks who own or run the
> newroman list considered a problem for NR? According to the SCU, yes, if
> they're in RPR.
>
> ATS2: It¹s my understanding that mere membership in the RPR was not
> supposed to be an issue, though of course there are those who will twist
> anything into any form they like.
>
> Are they traitors?
>
> ATS2: Does leaving an organization constitute treachery? Was I a
> traitor
> when I left CAAS because I was in a different area?
>
>
> If they swore oaths to NR and then
> violated them, then yes, they are.
>
> ATS2: What oaths?
>
> Was the penalty for treason in ancient
> Rome to be flung from the Tarpeian rock? Yes, it was. Facts.* *
> Do *I personally *want to see this happen to these individuals? No, I
> think that would be barbaric. But actions have consequences, and these
> people face consequences for their acts. One of the consequences is that
> they have no place assisting new citizens of NR get acclimated, since they
> are no longer citizens themselves, and 2 of them are *personae non gratae
> *for
> their participation in RPR. Marinus, on the other hand, could come back at
> any time . . . but he might face prosecution for his alleged role in the
> coup, so I imagine he will not.
>
> ATS2: There was no coup. Maybe there was a plan to get things moving
> again, but I wasn¹t a party to any of this, so I don¹t know. In any case,
> there is nothing wrong with a Roman dictatorship when circumstances merit.
> It
> seems that Vedius held at least one (if not more) of them.
>
> Now to the point - either the newroman list is still official, or it is
> not.
>
> ATS2: So far as I know, NewRoman has never been official. If so, it
> surely has not been of late...before last year.
>
>
> Black and white, no shades of grey, no hemming, no hedging, no hiding
> behind
> other languages so that the majority of the people cannot follow.
>
> ATS2: If you are referring to Latin, everyone here should be able to
> read
> simple Latin. You, as a teacher thereof, should stand up for that. As in
> the
> Marines, there¹s Yes, ma¹am, Yes, sir, No, ma¹am, No, sir, and No excuse,
> Ma¹am / Sir. Medical conditions which preclude membership in the Marines
> are
> the only exception; those xenophobic quondam Boni are not exempted.
>
>
> Yes or no.
> If it IS, then non-citizens ought not to be running the list.
>
> ATS2: And if it were, unsuitable citizens should not be running the
> list...unsuitable citizens such as some who were proposed for this. It is
> far
> more important that honorable people be running any list in any academic
> field
> than it is for current members of NR to manage Roman-related lists.
>
>
>
> If it IS NOT,
> then the current owners need to conform to copyright laws
>
> ATS2: Copyright laws? What does that have to do with the price of
> tea in
> China? How is anyone on NewRoman violating the copyright laws?
>
>
>
> and Yahoo terms of
> service,
>
> ATS2: Ditto. What relevance do the Yahoo ToS have to do with this?
> Has
> anyone done what was repeatedly done on the ML in the past, things which
> are
> harmful to minors as well as others?
>
>
> or there are penalties prescribed by law and by the Yahoo terms of
> service. That's all.
>
> The citizens of Nova Roma know me. They know that I stand for following
> the
> law, and doing what is right. It is not right to break our laws, or
> Yahoo's
> rules.
>
> ATS2: The citizens of Nova Roma know me, too. I stand for a law
> higher
> than the one made in legislatures. Yahoo¹s rules have been broken
> repeatedly
> by those supposedly upstanding pals of yours, and so has the moral law,
> which
> is far more important than the rules of Yahoo or anything else. Those who
> are
> stuck at Kohlberg 4 don¹t have any authority over those who live at a
> higher
> plane.
>
>
> It is not right to violate your sworn oath, or to betray your
> country. It is not right to illegally assume the dictatorship,
>
> ATS2: Yes, but was this instance illegal? Or unjustified? You like
> governmental paralysis? NR has no government to speak of at present.
>
> or seize
> control of the government illegally (and to Marinus' credit, he refused to
> do so - but he still left).
>
> ATS2: Marinus left for a reason entirely unrelated to this legalistic
> nonsense which occupies so much mental effort on the part of the quondam
> Boni.
>
> Vale, cousin Scholastica, et valete omnes!
>
> Vale, cousin Valeriane, et valete.
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85199 From: Cato Date: 2011-08-18
Subject: a.d. XV Kal. Sept.
Cato omnibus in foro SPD

Hodiernus dies est ante diem XV Kalendas Septembris; haec dies comitialis est.

"Immediately after the funeral the people ran to the houses of Brutus
and Cassius with firebrands, and after being repelled with difficulty,
they slew Helvius Cinna when they met him, through a mistake in the
name, supposing that he was Cornelius Cinna, who had the day before
made a bitter indictment of Caesar and for whom they were looking; and
they set his head upon a spear and paraded it about the streets.
Afterwards they set up in the Forum a solid column of Numidian marble
almost twenty feet high, and inscribed upon it, 'To the Father of his
Country.' At the foot of this they continued for a long time to
sacrifice, make vows, and settle some of their disputes by an oath in
the name of Caesar.

He died in the fifty-sixth year of his age, and was numbered among the
gods, not only by a formal decree, but also in the conviction of the
common people. For at the first of the games which his heir Augustus
gave in honor of his apotheosis, a comet shone for seven successive
days, rising about the eleventh hour [about an hour before sunset] and
was believed to be the soul of Caesar, who had been taken to heaven;
and this is why a star is set upon the crown of his head in his
statue. It was voted that the curia in which he was slain be walled
up, that the Ides of March be called the Day of Parricide, and that a
meeting of the senate should never be called on that day." -
Seutonius, "Lives of the Twelve Caesars", Caesar 85, 88

On this day in 29 BC, the emperor Augustus Caesar dedicated a temple
to his adopted father, Iulius Caesar.

Apotheosis is most commonly used to refer to the Roman pagan process
whereby an Emperor, empress, hero or leader was made into or
recognized as a deity by decree of the Senate or popular consent. Some
Roman emperors underwent apotheosis upon their deaths. The process
involved the creation of a waxen image of the emperor sitting in
state, adorned with rich raiments and jewelry for a period of days,
after which it would be burnt. On the pyre would be a hidden cage with
an eagle in it. At the climax of the ceremony, this eagle would be
released, and would be said to be carrying the emperor's soul to the
gods.

It had its origins in the worship of Romulus, who became known in his
deified form as Quirinus, and in the declaration by the Senate of
Julius Caesar as a god after his assassination in 44 BC, an act that
consolidated Augustus's power (Caesar was his adoptive father, and so
he became "divi filius", son of the deified Caesar) but shocked the
urbane opinion of the Roman elite. When Augustus died 58 years later,
he received similar honors, thus setting the pattern for future
emperors.

Perhaps the most significant title he carried was his name from birth:
Caesar. This name would be awarded to every Roman emperor, and it
became a signal of great power and authority far beyond the bounds of
the empire. The title became the German Kaiser and Slavic Tsar/Czar.
The last tsar in nominal power was Simeon II of Bulgaria whose reign
ended in AD 1946; for two thousand years after Julius Caesar's
assassination, there was a least one head of state bearing his name.

Valete bene!

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85200 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2011-08-18
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
C. Petronius Tulliae Scholasticae salutem,

> > ATS: Under this year¹s rules and those enforced at the end of last year, probationary citizens and prospective citizens are banned from the ML.

Those "rules" are written nowhere. It is obvious that citizens, even during their probatory period, may unscribe to the ML. The new list, called Forum Hospitum was created in order to prevent endless political discussions about Nova Roma on the ML between citizens and no-citizens. Only no-citizens are banned from the ML.

Optime vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
a. d. XV Kalendas Septembres P. Vllerio C. Equitio coss.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85201 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-18
Subject: Nova Roman Community
Avete Omnes,

As one of the persons in Nova Roma actually working to develop a real honest
to goodness Roman community in the world....one that is not focused entirely
on the internet....I have to ask everyone is this actually one of the goals
that Nova Roma has striven for?

The reason I am asking this is in Scholastica's post she kept referring to
me as the "landlord." Like it is a derogatory statement, something that it
seems I should be ashamed of?

So, I am left puzzled...is the purpose of Nova Roma supposed to be something
greater than just being on an email list? Or is this something that is
supposed to be taken seriously in the rest of our 24 hour daily lives?

Because if this is just an internet game and not something that is ever
going to be tangible - I would like to know now and at least get the
opinions of others.

IN the past one of the major criticisms citizens would be tagged with is:
Just what have you done for Nova Roma. What I find interesting is here
Scholastica is not tagging me for not doing anything for NR, but seemingly
that I am doing too much for Nova Roma? By helping to move 4 Nova Romans
to Phoenix.

Scholastica, there is nothing to stop you or any other citizen from trying
to start your own actual Roman community by helping Nova Romans move to a
new location to start their lives....instead it just seems easier to
complain about those people who are actually trying to make an actual landed
Roman Community!



Vale,

Sulla


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85202 From: C.Maria Caeca Date: 2011-08-18
Subject: Re: [newroman] Roman Virtues: Auctoritas
C. Maria Caeca omnibus in foro S. P. D.

I had intended to present my admittedly unscholarly, and probably
unhistorical, thoughts on this subject yesterday, but I was doing battle
with my computer and 2 complicated pieces of software. I won.

First, I think an informal discussion of the Roman virtues is a very
constructive thing, because we were not exposed to them from childhood;
because it is part of our task as Novi Romani (as I see it) to understand
what was, understand what is, and bring concepts different from our own era
into our time frame in meaningful ways, and so we will have to consider some
things, and primarily some attitudes, that the ancients did not; because
each of us brings to any discussion our own mindsets and our own
backgrounds; and finally, (not least) because such productive discussions
bring us, as an international community, closer together.

Like Valerianus Augur, I believe that auctoritas is earned. People who have
been observed to consistently (note I did not say constantly) behave in a
manner that can receive respect and trust from their community become,
gradually, those to whom the community goes for advice in their areas, and
those whose actions and words tend to be accepted and valued. This kind of
auctoritas does *not* depend either on position or personal wealth. I have
known people who had tremendous auctoritas (although they never called it
that) who had very little material wealth. What they had was a deep sense
of what was right, and the quiet confidence not just to say what is right,
but to do what is right, in any given situation. Sometimes these people
exercised their auctoritas in words and actions, but a single word, or even
a quelling look, could and did prevent unfortunate things from happening.

Usually, this kind of let me call it natural auctoritas comes with
experience, demonstration of ability, knowledge, or moral compass over a
long time, and these things require more than a few years. I do not say
that young people cannot possess this kind of auctoritas, but I have found
it to be very rare.

Where Valerianus and I disagree, a bit, is the idea that auctoritas cannot
be bestowed or given. I think that, in a sense, the Roman people did so
when they elected their government. Each office had its duties and
responsibilities, and in electing this or that candidate, the people of Rome
gave that candidate a mandate, saying, essentially, that the people trusted
that candidate to perform those duties as they should be performed. We do
the same thing, and we call it a political mandate or imperative. The
Consuls had their auctoritas to do specific things, and had the full
expectation of being obeyed, as did the other officials. the people held
the power, however, because while a sitting magistrate could not be
prosecuted, he could be (and often was) as soon as he left office. We
impeach, it is true, but that is, thankfully, very rarely done. So the trust
that magistrates will exercise their auctoritas, both personal and mandated
is strongly implied.

Valete bene!
C. Maria Caeca
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85203 From: eljefe3126@netscape.net Date: 2011-08-18
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
P. Porcius Tulliae Scholasticae omnibusque S.P.D.

Speaking only for myself, when I first became aware of Nova Roma earlier this year, I found no mention of the "newroman" list and was directed to the Forum Hospitum. I was given access to that list as a non-citizen, and found the discussion there to be helpful and informative. I had no knowledge of the "newroman" list until it was mentioned here a few days ago.

After submitting my application and passing my test, I was given access to this list. This was while I was still in my probationary period. I note that although my probation ended in Quintilis, I am still not listed as a citizen in the Album Civium. That is another matter, though, since I am sure our Censor is quite busy after the departure of Albucius.

Optime valete!

P. Porcius Licinus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@...> wrote:
>
> C. Petronius Tulliae Scholasticae salutem,
>
> > > ATS: Under this year¹s rules and those enforced at the end of last year, probationary citizens and prospective citizens are banned from the ML.
>
> Those "rules" are written nowhere. It is obvious that citizens, even during their probatory period, may unscribe to the ML. The new list, called Forum Hospitum was created in order to prevent endless political discussions about Nova Roma on the ML between citizens and no-citizens. Only no-citizens are banned from the ML.
>
> Optime vale.
>
> C. Petronius Dexter
> Arcoiali scribebat
> a. d. XV Kalendas Septembres P. Vllerio C. Equitio coss.
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85204 From: iulius sabinus Date: 2011-08-18
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
SALVE!

 
After submitting my application and passing my test, I was given access to this list. This was while I was still in my probationary period. I note that although my probation ended in Quintilis, I am still not listed as a citizen in the Album Civium. That is another matter, though, since I am sure our Censor is quite busy after the departure of Albucius.>>>
Yes, you are correct. You are now listed as citizen in the AC.
VALE,
Sabinus
Optime valete!

P. Porcius Licinus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@...> wrote:
>
> C. Petronius Tulliae Scholasticae salutem,
>
> > > ATS: Under this year¹s rules and those enforced at the end of last year, probationary citizens and prospective citizens are banned from the ML.
>
> Those "rules" are written nowhere. It is obvious that citizens, even during their probatory period, may unscribe to the ML. The new list, called Forum Hospitum was created in order to prevent endless political discussions about Nova Roma on the ML between citizens and no-citizens. Only no-citizens are banned from the ML.
>
> Optime vale.
>
> C. Petronius Dexter
> Arcoiali scribebat
> a. d. XV Kalendas Septembres P. Vllerio C. Equitio coss.
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85205 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2011-08-18
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica L. Liviae Plautae quiritibus bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
>
>
>
>
> L. Livia Plauta A. Tulliae Scholasticae omnibus sal.
>
> It's good to have someone who never tires of giving a more objective version
> of last year's facts
>
> ATS: Objectivity is SO difficult for certain parties. When paranoia
> reigns, it is quite a challenge to see reality.
>
>
> and who is actually able to apply common sense.
>
> ATS: That, too, is something quite challenging for some among us.
>
> Nothing wrong with having a Roman community in real life, nothing wrong
> with being a landlord...but seeing everyone as a plotter and every thing as a
> plot is another matter. Ditto branding any opponent who is older than oneself
> and / or sees things differently as being senile or suffering from
> Alzheimer¹s...
>
> Gratias
> ago, Scholastica!
>
> ATS: Flocci est.
>
> Optime vale,
> Livia
>
> Optime vale,
>
> Scholastica
>
>> >
>> > A. Tullia Scholastica C. Tullio Valeriano Germanico Quiritibus bonae
>> > voluntatis (et tantum bonae voluntatis) S.P.D.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Gaius Tullius Valerianus Germanicus omnibus in foro, praecipue
>> > Scholasticae,
>> > S.P.D.
>> >
>>>>>> >>> > > ATS: Haec te pudere debent. Nec GEM nec MLA proditores sunt.
>>>>>> >>> > > Praeterea,
>>>>>> >>> > > quoad scio, Marinus particeps RPR non est, et paene sine dubio,
esse
>>>>>> >>> > > non
>>>> >> > vult.
>>>>>> >>> > > De Q, nescio, sed cum suffragia prioris anni corrupta et omnia
>>>>>> >>> > > munera
>>>> >> > data
>>>>>> >>> > > fautoribus unius factionis quae feminas, linguas, peregrinos
>>>> >>> peregrinaque
>>>> >> > non
>>>>>> >>> > > modo flocci facit, sed etiam odit, haud dubium est nonnullis
omnia
>>>>>> >>> > > apud
>>>> >> > NR
>>>>>> >>> > > pessum iisse et tempus discedendo pervenisse visum.
>>>> >> >
>> >
>> > Ah, but Scholastica, I am not the one who adjudged the RPR to be our
>> > enemy. That was the Senate, a body to which you belong, not I.
>> >
>> > ATS2: Ah, but I did not vote for this nonsense. Since the Senate is
>> > otherwise composed of members of the faction formerly known as Boni, my
>> > vote
>> > carries very little weight. In any case, the vote of the Senate is
>> > irrelevant; the Senate could vote that Obama was a blue-eyed Swede, but
>> > that
>> > does not make him one.
>> >
>> > But the fate
>> > of those adjudged to be traitors in Roma Antiqua is well known. So take it
>> > up with the Senate. Not with me. I merely state the facts. Now, I am (or
>> > was, anyway) friendly with Agricola, and it saddens me that he chose the
>> > course he did. But he did. Facts are facts.
>> >
>> > ATS2: Well, maybe they are not. Maybe things have been presented to
>> > you
>> > in a way which is not at all factual.
>> >
>> >
>> > As for the others, well, I don't know them so well, and I am not
>> > friends of theirs. Quintilianus is the "founder" or RPR, is he not? So
>> > that
>> > speaks for itself, according to the Senate. I don't know if Marinus is a
>> > member of RPR or not
>> >
>> > ATS2: So far as I know (as above), he is not, nor does he wish to be.
>> > Unlike you, I do know Marinus; I have met him several times. He has his
>> > flaws, as do we all, but this paranoia seeping over you is unjustified.
>> >
>> > - and he did avoid direct responsibility in the
>> > attempted coup to overthrow the Roman government last year,
>> >
>> > ATS2: There was no coup to overthrow the government of NR.
>> >
>> > even though it
>> > was he whom the plotters intended to make dictator -
>> >
>> > ATS2: As you may recall, the government was totally paralyzed last
>> > year
>> > due to the machinations of Piscinus and Albucius. We could not hold a
>> > legitimate meeting of the Senate, we could not hold an election, we could
>> > not
>> > do anything because those two were at each other¹s throats. The wisest
>> > course
>> > out of this mess was to have a dictatorship...a ROMAN dictatorship, not a
>> > modern one, one limited to six months. Marinus was elected / appointed
>> > dictator by the Senate (if I remember correctly), but the usual
>> > troublemakers
>> > went screaming to daddy and decided that they really didn¹t like
>> > government
>> > unless they held all of the offices and could keep anything useful from
>> > getting done (you know, like getting a genuine IT fix, getting JSTOR, that
>> > sort of thing).
>> >
>> >
>> > but in Roma Antiqua,
>> > that might have been enough. We are more enlightened today, perhaps, but
>> > my
>> > point is that Roma Antiqua would not have been so kind to these fellows as
>> > we are today.
>> >
>>>> >> > At least Lentulus and Caeca are moderators too, and can
>>>>>> >>> > > make sure that the potential damage is limited, but it seems very
>>>> >> > worrisome
>>>>>> >>> > > to me that an official NR list is in the hands of members of a
group
>>>>>> >>> > > adjudged to be an enemy of NR by our Senate!
>>>>>> >>> > >
>>>>>> >>> > > ATS: Nugas et ineptias! Sine dubio inimici his eos maledicere
>>>>>> >>> > > volunt.
>>>>>> >>> > > Spero te veneno talium non infectum.
>>>> >> >
>> >
>> > Really? You mean there is not an SCU in place declaring it so,
>> >
>> >
>> > ATS2: Just maybe that SCU was railroaded by your landlord and his
>> > pals.
>> > Unless it reflects actual fact, its content is irrelevant. What did
>> > Agricola
>> > do, anyway? Why was RPR deemed hostile? I see no reason to consider it
>> > as
>> > such. Other organizations have formed along the lines of NR (SVR, etc.),
>> > but
>> > suddenly this particular one is a worse threat than Communism in 1950.
>> >
>> > and
>> > causing Piscinus and Agricola to be removed from our citizenry? I imagined
>> > that you folks in the Senate did this?
>> >
>> >
>> > ATS2: I sure didn¹t. When the entire government is in the hands of
>> > paranoiacs who deem everyone who does not share their narrow vision as
>> > enemies, one may expect that sort of thing.
>> >
>> >
>> > My feverish imagination has been
>> > working overtime!
>> > I thought you passed that SCU . . .
>> >
>> > ATS2: Government by SCU seems popular these days. It¹s easier than
>> > doing
>> > things the right way.
>> >
>> > Now, please understand me, dear cousin, and everyone else following
>> > this thread - I am merely pointing out the facts as they stand. I rendered
>> > no opinion or judgement on those facts. Are the folks who own or run the
>> > newroman list considered a problem for NR? According to the SCU, yes, if
>> > they're in RPR.
>> >
>> > ATS2: It¹s my understanding that mere membership in the RPR was not
>> > supposed to be an issue, though of course there are those who will twist
>> > anything into any form they like.
>> >
>> > Are they traitors?
>> >
>> > ATS2: Does leaving an organization constitute treachery? Was I a
>> > traitor
>> > when I left CAAS because I was in a different area?
>> >
>> >
>> > If they swore oaths to NR and then
>> > violated them, then yes, they are.
>> >
>> > ATS2: What oaths?
>> >
>> > Was the penalty for treason in ancient
>> > Rome to be flung from the Tarpeian rock? Yes, it was. Facts.* *
>> > Do *I personally *want to see this happen to these individuals? No, I
>> > think that would be barbaric. But actions have consequences, and these
>> > people face consequences for their acts. One of the consequences is that
>> > they have no place assisting new citizens of NR get acclimated, since they
>> > are no longer citizens themselves, and 2 of them are *personae non gratae
>> > *for
>> > their participation in RPR. Marinus, on the other hand, could come back at
>> > any time . . . but he might face prosecution for his alleged role in the
>> > coup, so I imagine he will not.
>> >
>> > ATS2: There was no coup. Maybe there was a plan to get things moving
>> > again, but I wasn¹t a party to any of this, so I don¹t know. In any case,
>> > there is nothing wrong with a Roman dictatorship when circumstances merit.
>> > It
>> > seems that Vedius held at least one (if not more) of them.
>> >
>> > Now to the point - either the newroman list is still official, or it is
>> > not.
>> >
>> > ATS2: So far as I know, NewRoman has never been official. If so, it
>> > surely has not been of late...before last year.
>> >
>> >
>> > Black and white, no shades of grey, no hemming, no hedging, no hiding
>> > behind
>> > other languages so that the majority of the people cannot follow.
>> >
>> > ATS2: If you are referring to Latin, everyone here should be able to
>> > read
>> > simple Latin. You, as a teacher thereof, should stand up for that. As in
>> > the
>> > Marines, there¹s Yes, ma¹am, Yes, sir, No, ma¹am, No, sir, and No excuse,
>> > Ma¹am / Sir. Medical conditions which preclude membership in the Marines
>> > are
>> > the only exception; those xenophobic quondam Boni are not exempted.
>> >
>> >
>> > Yes or no.
>> > If it IS, then non-citizens ought not to be running the list.
>> >
>> > ATS2: And if it were, unsuitable citizens should not be running the
>> > list...unsuitable citizens such as some who were proposed for this. It is
>> > far
>> > more important that honorable people be running any list in any academic
>> > field
>> > than it is for current members of NR to manage Roman-related lists.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > If it IS NOT,
>> > then the current owners need to conform to copyright laws
>> >
>> > ATS2: Copyright laws? What does that have to do with the price of
>> > tea in
>> > China? How is anyone on NewRoman violating the copyright laws?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > and Yahoo terms of
>> > service,
>> >
>> > ATS2: Ditto. What relevance do the Yahoo ToS have to do with this?
>> > Has
>> > anyone done what was repeatedly done on the ML in the past, things which
>> > are
>> > harmful to minors as well as others?
>> >
>> >
>> > or there are penalties prescribed by law and by the Yahoo terms of
>> > service. That's all.
>> >
>> > The citizens of Nova Roma know me. They know that I stand for following
>> > the
>> > law, and doing what is right. It is not right to break our laws, or
>> > Yahoo's
>> > rules.
>> >
>> > ATS2: The citizens of Nova Roma know me, too. I stand for a law
>> > higher
>> > than the one made in legislatures. Yahoo¹s rules have been broken
>> > repeatedly
>> > by those supposedly upstanding pals of yours, and so has the moral law,
>> > which
>> > is far more important than the rules of Yahoo or anything else. Those who
>> > are
>> > stuck at Kohlberg 4 don¹t have any authority over those who live at a
>> > higher
>> > plane.
>> >
>> >
>> > It is not right to violate your sworn oath, or to betray your
>> > country. It is not right to illegally assume the dictatorship,
>> >
>> > ATS2: Yes, but was this instance illegal? Or unjustified? You like
>> > governmental paralysis? NR has no government to speak of at present.
>> >
>> > or seize
>> > control of the government illegally (and to Marinus' credit, he refused to
>> > do so - but he still left).
>> >
>> > ATS2: Marinus left for a reason entirely unrelated to this legalistic
>> > nonsense which occupies so much mental effort on the part of the quondam
>> > Boni.
>> >
>> > Vale, cousin Scholastica, et valete omnes!
>> >
>> > Vale, cousin Valeriane, et valete.
>> >




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85206 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-18
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
Ave,

Well it is either a medical problem, a mental problem or the individual is
flat out lying. I would view the liar in the worst light possible therefore
giving the individual who made the false claims the benefit of the doubt.

Vale,

Sulla

On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 6:43 PM, A. Tullia Scholastica <fororom@...
> wrote:

> **
>
>
> >
> > A. Tullia Scholastica L. Liviae Plautae quiritibus bonae voluntatis
> S.P.D.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > L. Livia Plauta A. Tulliae Scholasticae omnibus sal.
> >
> > It's good to have someone who never tires of giving a more objective
> version
> > of last year's facts
> >
> > ATS: Objectivity is SO difficult for certain parties. When paranoia
> > reigns, it is quite a challenge to see reality.
> >
> >
> > and who is actually able to apply common sense.
> >
> > ATS: That, too, is something quite challenging for some among us.
> >
> > Nothing wrong with having a Roman community in real life, nothing wrong
> > with being a landlord...but seeing everyone as a plotter and every thing
> as a
> > plot is another matter. Ditto branding any opponent who is older than
> oneself
> > and / or sees things differently as being senile or suffering from
> > Alzheimer�s...
> >
> > Gratias
> > ago, Scholastica!
> >
> > ATS: Flocci est.
> >
> > Optime vale,
> > Livia
> >
> > Optime vale,
> >
> > Scholastica
> >
> >> >
> >> > A. Tullia Scholastica C. Tullio Valeriano Germanico Quiritibus bonae
> >> > voluntatis (et tantum bonae voluntatis) S.P.D.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Gaius Tullius Valerianus Germanicus omnibus in foro, praecipue
> >> > Scholasticae,
> >> > S.P.D.
> >> >
> >>>>>> >>> > > ATS: Haec te pudere debent. Nec GEM nec MLA proditores sunt.
> >>>>>> >>> > > Praeterea,
> >>>>>> >>> > > quoad scio, Marinus particeps RPR non est, et paene sine
> dubio,
> esse
> >>>>>> >>> > > non
> >>>> >> > vult.
> >>>>>> >>> > > De Q, nescio, sed cum suffragia prioris anni corrupta et
> omnia
> >>>>>> >>> > > munera
> >>>> >> > data
> >>>>>> >>> > > fautoribus unius factionis quae feminas, linguas, peregrinos
> >>>> >>> peregrinaque
> >>>> >> > non
> >>>>>> >>> > > modo flocci facit, sed etiam odit, haud dubium est nonnullis
> omnia
> >>>>>> >>> > > apud
> >>>> >> > NR
> >>>>>> >>> > > pessum iisse et tempus discedendo pervenisse visum.
> >>>> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Ah, but Scholastica, I am not the one who adjudged the RPR to be our
> >> > enemy. That was the Senate, a body to which you belong, not I.
> >> >
> >> > ATS2: Ah, but I did not vote for this nonsense. Since the Senate is
> >> > otherwise composed of members of the faction formerly known as Boni,
> my
> >> > vote
> >> > carries very little weight. In any case, the vote of the Senate is
> >> > irrelevant; the Senate could vote that Obama was a blue-eyed Swede,
> but
> >> > that
> >> > does not make him one.
> >> >
> >> > But the fate
> >> > of those adjudged to be traitors in Roma Antiqua is well known. So
> take it
> >> > up with the Senate. Not with me. I merely state the facts. Now, I am
> (or
> >> > was, anyway) friendly with Agricola, and it saddens me that he chose
> the
> >> > course he did. But he did. Facts are facts.
> >> >
> >> > ATS2: Well, maybe they are not. Maybe things have been presented to
> >> > you
> >> > in a way which is not at all factual.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > As for the others, well, I don't know them so well, and I am not
> >> > friends of theirs. Quintilianus is the "founder" or RPR, is he not? So
> >> > that
> >> > speaks for itself, according to the Senate. I don't know if Marinus is
> a
> >> > member of RPR or not
> >> >
> >> > ATS2: So far as I know (as above), he is not, nor does he wish to be.
> >> > Unlike you, I do know Marinus; I have met him several times. He has
> his
> >> > flaws, as do we all, but this paranoia seeping over you is
> unjustified.
> >> >
> >> > - and he did avoid direct responsibility in the
> >> > attempted coup to overthrow the Roman government last year,
> >> >
> >> > ATS2: There was no coup to overthrow the government of NR.
> >> >
> >> > even though it
> >> > was he whom the plotters intended to make dictator -
> >> >
> >> > ATS2: As you may recall, the government was totally paralyzed last
> >> > year
> >> > due to the machinations of Piscinus and Albucius. We could not hold a
> >> > legitimate meeting of the Senate, we could not hold an election, we
> could
> >> > not
> >> > do anything because those two were at each other�s throats. The wisest
> >> > course
> >> > out of this mess was to have a dictatorship...a ROMAN dictatorship,
> not a
> >> > modern one, one limited to six months. Marinus was elected / appointed
> >> > dictator by the Senate (if I remember correctly), but the usual
> >> > troublemakers
> >> > went screaming to daddy and decided that they really didn�t like
> >> > government
> >> > unless they held all of the offices and could keep anything useful
> from
> >> > getting done (you know, like getting a genuine IT fix, getting JSTOR,
> that
> >> > sort of thing).
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > but in Roma Antiqua,
> >> > that might have been enough. We are more enlightened today, perhaps,
> but
> >> > my
> >> > point is that Roma Antiqua would not have been so kind to these
> fellows as
> >> > we are today.
> >> >
> >>>> >> > At least Lentulus and Caeca are moderators too, and can
> >>>>>> >>> > > make sure that the potential damage is limited, but it seems
> very
> >>>> >> > worrisome
> >>>>>> >>> > > to me that an official NR list is in the hands of members of
> a
> group
> >>>>>> >>> > > adjudged to be an enemy of NR by our Senate!
> >>>>>> >>> > >
> >>>>>> >>> > > ATS: Nugas et ineptias! Sine dubio inimici his eos
> maledicere
> >>>>>> >>> > > volunt.
> >>>>>> >>> > > Spero te veneno talium non infectum.
> >>>> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Really? You mean there is not an SCU in place declaring it so,
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ATS2: Just maybe that SCU was railroaded by your landlord and his
> >> > pals.
> >> > Unless it reflects actual fact, its content is irrelevant. What did
> >> > Agricola
> >> > do, anyway? Why was RPR deemed hostile? I see no reason to consider it
> >> > as
> >> > such. Other organizations have formed along the lines of NR (SVR,
> etc.),
> >> > but
> >> > suddenly this particular one is a worse threat than Communism in 1950.
> >> >
> >> > and
> >> > causing Piscinus and Agricola to be removed from our citizenry? I
> imagined
> >> > that you folks in the Senate did this?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ATS2: I sure didn�t. When the entire government is in the hands of
> >> > paranoiacs who deem everyone who does not share their narrow vision as
> >> > enemies, one may expect that sort of thing.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > My feverish imagination has been
> >> > working overtime!
> >> > I thought you passed that SCU . . .
> >> >
> >> > ATS2: Government by SCU seems popular these days. It�s easier than
> >> > doing
> >> > things the right way.
> >> >
> >> > Now, please understand me, dear cousin, and everyone else following
> >> > this thread - I am merely pointing out the facts as they stand. I
> rendered
> >> > no opinion or judgement on those facts. Are the folks who own or run
> the
> >> > newroman list considered a problem for NR? According to the SCU, yes,
> if
> >> > they're in RPR.
> >> >
> >> > ATS2: It�s my understanding that mere membership in the RPR was not
> >> > supposed to be an issue, though of course there are those who will
> twist
> >> > anything into any form they like.
> >> >
> >> > Are they traitors?
> >> >
> >> > ATS2: Does leaving an organization constitute treachery? Was I a
> >> > traitor
> >> > when I left CAAS because I was in a different area?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > If they swore oaths to NR and then
> >> > violated them, then yes, they are.
> >> >
> >> > ATS2: What oaths?
> >> >
> >> > Was the penalty for treason in ancient
> >> > Rome to be flung from the Tarpeian rock? Yes, it was. Facts.* *
> >> > Do *I personally *want to see this happen to these individuals? No, I
> >> > think that would be barbaric. But actions have consequences, and these
> >> > people face consequences for their acts. One of the consequences is
> that
> >> > they have no place assisting new citizens of NR get acclimated, since
> they
> >> > are no longer citizens themselves, and 2 of them are *personae non
> gratae
> >> > *for
> >> > their participation in RPR. Marinus, on the other hand, could come
> back at
> >> > any time . . . but he might face prosecution for his alleged role in
> the
> >> > coup, so I imagine he will not.
> >> >
> >> > ATS2: There was no coup. Maybe there was a plan to get things moving
> >> > again, but I wasn�t a party to any of this, so I don�t know. In any
> case,
> >> > there is nothing wrong with a Roman dictatorship when circumstances
> merit.
> >> > It
> >> > seems that Vedius held at least one (if not more) of them.
> >> >
> >> > Now to the point - either the newroman list is still official, or it
> is
> >> > not.
> >> >
> >> > ATS2: So far as I know, NewRoman has never been official. If so, it
> >> > surely has not been of late...before last year.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Black and white, no shades of grey, no hemming, no hedging, no hiding
> >> > behind
> >> > other languages so that the majority of the people cannot follow.
> >> >
> >> > ATS2: If you are referring to Latin, everyone here should be able to
> >> > read
> >> > simple Latin. You, as a teacher thereof, should stand up for that. As
> in
> >> > the
> >> > Marines, there�s Yes, ma�am, Yes, sir, No, ma�am, No, sir, and No
> excuse,
> >> > Ma�am / Sir. Medical conditions which preclude membership in the
> Marines
> >> > are
> >> > the only exception; those xenophobic quondam Boni are not exempted.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Yes or no.
> >> > If it IS, then non-citizens ought not to be running the list.
> >> >
> >> > ATS2: And if it were, unsuitable citizens should not be running the
> >> > list...unsuitable citizens such as some who were proposed for this. It
> is
> >> > far
> >> > more important that honorable people be running any list in any
> academic
> >> > field
> >> > than it is for current members of NR to manage Roman-related lists.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > If it IS NOT,
> >> > then the current owners need to conform to copyright laws
> >> >
> >> > ATS2: Copyright laws? What does that have to do with the price of
> >> > tea in
> >> > China? How is anyone on NewRoman violating the copyright laws?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > and Yahoo terms of
> >> > service,
> >> >
> >> > ATS2: Ditto. What relevance do the Yahoo ToS have to do with this?
> >> > Has
> >> > anyone done what was repeatedly done on the ML in the past, things
> which
> >> > are
> >> > harmful to minors as well as others?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > or there are penalties prescribed by law and by the Yahoo terms of
> >> > service. That's all.
> >> >
> >> > The citizens of Nova Roma know me. They know that I stand for
> following
> >> > the
> >> > law, and doing what is right. It is not right to break our laws, or
> >> > Yahoo's
> >> > rules.
> >> >
> >> > ATS2: The citizens of Nova Roma know me, too. I stand for a law
> >> > higher
> >> > than the one made in legislatures. Yahoo�s rules have been broken
> >> > repeatedly
> >> > by those supposedly upstanding pals of yours, and so has the moral
> law,
> >> > which
> >> > is far more important than the rules of Yahoo or anything else. Those
> who
> >> > are
> >> > stuck at Kohlberg 4 don�t have any authority over those who live at a
> >> > higher
> >> > plane.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > It is not right to violate your sworn oath, or to betray your
> >> > country. It is not right to illegally assume the dictatorship,
> >> >
> >> > ATS2: Yes, but was this instance illegal? Or unjustified? You like
> >> > governmental paralysis? NR has no government to speak of at present.
> >> >
> >> > or seize
> >> > control of the government illegally (and to Marinus' credit, he
> refused to
> >> > do so - but he still left).
> >> >
> >> > ATS2: Marinus left for a reason entirely unrelated to this legalistic
> >> > nonsense which occupies so much mental effort on the part of the
> quondam
> >> > Boni.
> >> >
> >> > Vale, cousin Scholastica, et valete omnes!
> >> >
> >> > Vale, cousin Valeriane, et valete.
> >> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85207 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2011-08-18
Subject: Re: [Nova_roma_] Re: [newroman] Roman Virtues: Auctoritas
C. Tullius Valerianus C. Mariae Caecae S.P.D.

Caecae scripsit:
> Where Valerianus and I disagree, a bit, is the idea that auctoritas cannot
> be bestowed or given. I think that, in a sense, the Roman people did so
> when they elected their government. Each office had its duties and
> responsibilities, and in electing this or that candidate, the people of
> Rome
> gave that candidate a mandate, saying, essentially, that the people trusted
>
> that candidate to perform those duties as they should be performed. We do
> the same thing, and we call it a political mandate or imperative. The
> Consuls had their auctoritas to do specific things, and had the full
> expectation of being obeyed, as did the other officials. the people held
> the power, however, because while a sitting magistrate could not be
> prosecuted, he could be (and often was) as soon as he left office. We
> impeach, it is true, but that is, thankfully, very rarely done. So the
> trust
> that magistrates will exercise their auctoritas, both personal and mandated
>
> is strongly implied.
>
Ego scribo:
OK, I see your point here. And I think you are rightt - there was *auctoritas
*granted by holding office existed, but the *auctoritas* that could be
bestowed by a vote or appointment was limited. A consul who had *auctoritas
*simply because he was consul couldn't get much done - it's a wonder he
could get elected consul in the first place! But a consul with
*auctoritas *born
of years of service, trustworthy dealings with the Senate and people, and so
forth - could move mountains!

Vale!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85208 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2011-08-18
Subject: Re: [newroman] Roman Virtues: Auctoritas
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica C. Mariae Caecae quiritibus bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
>
>
>
> C. Maria Caeca omnibus in foro S. P. D.
>
> I had intended to present my admittedly unscholarly, and probably
> unhistorical, thoughts on this subject yesterday, but I was doing battle
> with my computer and 2 complicated pieces of software. I won.
>
> ATS: Eugepae! Glad to hear you defeated JAWS and Magic! Hope the
> hardware is cooperative now, too.
>
> First, I think an informal discussion of the Roman virtues is a very
> constructive thing,
>
> ATS: Indeed.
>
> because we were not exposed to them from childhood;
> because it is part of our task as Novi Romani (as I see it) to understand
> what was, understand what is, and bring concepts different from our own era
> into our time frame in meaningful ways, and so we will have to consider some
> things, and primarily some attitudes, that the ancients did not; because
> each of us brings to any discussion our own mindsets and our own
> backgrounds; and finally, (not least) because such productive discussions
> bring us, as an international community, closer together.
>
> Like Valerianus Augur, I believe that auctoritas is earned. People who have
> been observed to consistently (note I did not say constantly) behave in a
> manner that can receive respect and trust from their community become,
> gradually, those to whom the community goes for advice in their areas, and
> those whose actions and words tend to be accepted and valued. This kind of
> auctoritas does *not* depend either on position or personal wealth.
>
> ATS: In fact, it might have nothing to do with either, and those who
> possess wealth or high positions may indeed be utterly lacking in auctoritas
> (or most virtues, for that matter), however much they are fawned upon by the
> seekers of wealth and power.
>
> I have
> known people who had tremendous auctoritas (although they never called it
> that) who had very little material wealth. What they had was a deep sense
> of what was right, and the quiet confidence not just to say what is right,
> but to do what is right, in any given situation. Sometimes these people
> exercised their auctoritas in words and actions, but a single word, or even
> a quelling look, could and did prevent unfortunate things from happening.
>
> Usually, this kind of let me call it natural auctoritas comes with
> experience, demonstration of ability, knowledge, or moral compass over a
> long time, and these things require more than a few years.
>
> ATS: Indeed.
>
> I do not say
> that young people cannot possess this kind of auctoritas, but I have found
> it to be very rare.
>
> Where Valerianus and I disagree, a bit, is the idea that auctoritas cannot
> be bestowed or given.
>
> ATS: Meá sententiá, there is a component of auctoritas which cannot be
> given. Positions carry powers ex opere operato, but not necessarily ex opere
> operantis.
>
>
> I think that, in a sense, the Roman people did so
> when they elected their government. Each office had its duties and
> responsibilities, and in electing this or that candidate, the people of Rome
> gave that candidate a mandate, saying, essentially, that the people trusted
> that candidate to perform those duties as they should be performed. We do
> the same thing, and we call it a political mandate or imperative. The
> Consuls had their auctoritas to do specific things, and had the full
> expectation of being obeyed, as did the other officials. the people held
> the power, however, because while a sitting magistrate could not be
> prosecuted, he could be (and often was) as soon as he left office. We
> impeach, it is true, but that is, thankfully, very rarely done. So the trust
> that magistrates will exercise their auctoritas, both personal and mandated
> is strongly implied.
>
> Valete bene!
> C. Maria Caeca
>
> Vale, et valete.
>
>
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85209 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-18
Subject: Re: [Nova_roma_] Re: [newroman] Roman Virtues: Auctoritas
Ave,

It would be essentially the same thing of respecting the office not
necessarily the individual holding the office, correct?

Respectfully,

Sulla

On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 6:51 PM, Gaius Tullius Valerianus <
gaius.tullius.valerianus@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> C. Tullius Valerianus C. Mariae Caecae S.P.D.
>
> Caecae scripsit:
> > Where Valerianus and I disagree, a bit, is the idea that auctoritas
> cannot
> > be bestowed or given. I think that, in a sense, the Roman people did so
> > when they elected their government. Each office had its duties and
> > responsibilities, and in electing this or that candidate, the people of
> > Rome
> > gave that candidate a mandate, saying, essentially, that the people
> trusted
> >
> > that candidate to perform those duties as they should be performed. We do
> > the same thing, and we call it a political mandate or imperative. The
> > Consuls had their auctoritas to do specific things, and had the full
> > expectation of being obeyed, as did the other officials. the people held
> > the power, however, because while a sitting magistrate could not be
> > prosecuted, he could be (and often was) as soon as he left office. We
> > impeach, it is true, but that is, thankfully, very rarely done. So the
> > trust
> > that magistrates will exercise their auctoritas, both personal and
> mandated
> >
> > is strongly implied.
> >
> Ego scribo:
> OK, I see your point here. And I think you are rightt - there was
> *auctoritas
> *granted by holding office existed, but the *auctoritas* that could be
> bestowed by a vote or appointment was limited. A consul who had *auctoritas
> *simply because he was consul couldn't get much done - it's a wonder he
> could get elected consul in the first place! But a consul with
> *auctoritas *born
> of years of service, trustworthy dealings with the Senate and people, and
> so
> forth - could move mountains!
>
> Vale!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85210 From: C.Maria Caeca Date: 2011-08-18
Subject: Re: [Nova_roma_] Re: [newroman] Roman Virtues: Auctoritas
C. Maria Caeca C. Tullio Valeriano Germanico Auguri S. P. D.

Oh, yes, of course, and you are also correct, I think, in that the auctoritas given to any magistrate had best be solidly built upon personal auctoritas. History shows us excellent of both examples, both in Ancient Rome and in our own country.

Vale bene!
C. Maria Caeca

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85211 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2011-08-18
Subject: [Nova_roma_] Re: [newroman] Roman Virtues: Auctoritas
Iulia Mariae vestalis Tullio auguri Corneli senatori omnibusque S.P.D.

It is the elected official who brings great dignitas to an office just as an elected official could effectively turn an office into a mockery. Even the most loyal citizen would have a hard time respecting an office spearheaded by an official who abuses the authority and expectations of the office. So, no Senator Sulla, it would not be the same thing but, at least in my mind, auctoritas is a given pertaining to a magistrate elected by popular vote just by its very nature that s/he is elected because s/he is trusted as a leader and will be obeyed based on past merits. This also extends to sat a general, who came up through the ranks based on merits and example (as already mentioned as well. The old investment firm slogan "when E.F. Hutton speaks, everyone listens" is a good example of auctoritas.
The psychological component of auctoritas was much stronger, as it was in my parents day, as part of upbringing was to instill a strong respect for authority which reinforces a primitive survival instinct we still possess to an extent. Most of us would be easily detained by an impostor in a convincing police uniform and few of us would ask for identification or call the local precinct to confirm this is a policeman.


Pietas would include individual respecting for an office, the state. And this would most certainly be based in part on the dignitas and auctoritas of the individual magistrate - also gravitas, aequitas hand in hand with fides. The concept of "respect" covers a wide range of virtues.

When discussing virtues, it is difficult to discuss just one on its own merit because virtues depend upon, and overlap onto, other virtues. Including both public and personal.

Just for discussion, there were other virtues in ancient Rome as well, ones not documented as such because of to whom they applied but it did not make them any less virtues. Humility for example, a desirable virtue in a slave - but might be viewed as weakness in a Roman citizen. For the individual fortunate enough to be a Roman citizen clementia and frugalitas might be closest to humility for the free Roman, but of course without the submissiveness and subservience.

Vale, et valete,

Julia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "C.Maria Caeca" <c.mariacaeca@...> wrote:
>
> C. Maria Caeca C. Tullio Valeriano Germanico Auguri S. P. D.
>
> Oh, yes, of course, and you are also correct, I think, in that the auctoritas given to any magistrate had best be solidly built upon personal auctoritas. History shows us excellent of both examples, both in Ancient Rome and in our own country.
>
> Vale bene!
> C. Maria Caeca
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85212 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: Roman Virtues: Auctoritas
C. Petronius C. Valeriano salutem,

>>> The NR website describes *auctoritas *as a "personal virtue," meaning that it is, by definition, a virtue attributed to an individual person, not to the State or similar bodies. Personally, I suspect ancient Romans might recognize something like *auctoritas *accruing to a body like the Collegium Pontificum or Collegium Augurum, but only as a reflection of the standing of its constituent members, not as the body itself. But it is generally a quality of *individuals.*<<<

Auctoritas was the virtue of the Senate, in ancient Rome. Yes, this is also a personal virtue, but Romans put this virtue on the senate first.

Auctoritas is not imperium. It seems when I read the most of the messages written than many think auctoritas as authority, but it was not. Unless it was not its first meaning.

Auctoritas was not questionable, because questionning the auctoritas of a body or of a magistrate was the beginning of the trouble. You only can make a trial against a magistrate after he left his auctoritas, not when he was under the protection of his auctoritas. Caesar, for example, questionned the auctoritas of the Senate when he started his civil war.

The three virtues in politics were:
Senate = auctoritas.
Magistrates = potestas.(with imperium or not).
People = libertas.

Optime vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
a. d. XIV Kalendas Septembres P. Vllerio C. Equitio coss.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85213 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: No coup? O Rly?
Ave,

There are a few (Scholastica and Livia) who seem to be under a delusion that
there was no coup attempt last year? I beg to differ and am going to copy
and paste senate messages illustrating the attempted take over by the now
members of the RPR. The evidence is plain as the nose on your face. Only
someone who has the talent to revise history (like claiming the Holocaust
did not take place) would have the ability to bald face lie to the People of
Nova Roma. So, without further adieu:

Beginning on July 17th was the emergency summons of the Senate of Nova Roma
by Caeso Fabius and was immediately vetoed by his colleague Publius Albucius
and here is the email:

VETO of the "Emergency meeting of the Senate"

Senatoribus, Tribunibus, Collegae s.d.

On view of the Constitution, article IV.A. 2 and 7,

I hereby veto the call of the Senate issued on Sat, 17 Jul 2010 00:01:19 by
my colleague, and its later "addendum".

Among the several irregularities that this call contains, I cannot but state
that the Senate cannot be called jointly by a consul and a tribune (at
least), for it cancels the possibility that the other consul has to veto
this call.

I am much surprised to discover this call, and to see that my colleague is
trying to convene during a month where I was supposed to, thus doing the
contrary of what he has said during the last month.

I invite him contacting me to see how a call of the Senate could be made in
the coming weeks, so that the points which look important may be presented,
after a common and useful work. I am open to every proposal from the moment
it is worked on before, cleverly and with method, and that we agree, on the
By-Laws and IT matters, on serious and precise proposals. The CFO matter may
wait several more weeks.

This veto will be formalized later in an edictum form, but is naturally
worth it from now on.


Albucius cos.





------------------------------
To: SenatusRomanus@yahoogroups.com
From: christer.edling@...
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 00:01:19 +0200
Subject: [SenatusRomanus] Emergency meeting of the Senate


Salvete Patres et Conscripti!

Ex Officio Consulis Caesonis Fabii Buteonis Quintiliani

C. Fabius Buteo Quintilianus Consul, C. Curius Saturninus, M. Octavius
Corvus, C. Aqvillivs Rota, Tibuni Plebis: Senatoribus Patribus
Mátribusque Conscriptís, viris clarissimis et castissimae mulieribus,
omnibus quibusque in senatu senteniam dicere licet: salutem plurimam
dicit:

Whereas serious concerns have been raised, to wit:

1. Changes to our by-laws must be submitted by the end of the
fiscal to allow a concordance with our corporate needs a that of the
Res Publica;
2. Appontment of a new CFO is needed before the end of the fiscal
year;
3. Immediate action is needed to correct our IT problems in time
for fall elections;
4. And mounting civil discord, a lack of magistrates, and disputed
elections do not afford swift and decisive decisions on these and
other issues as required at this time;

In accordance with the Constirution IV.A.2.c and 7.d.1

I, Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus, in conjunction with the following
Tribunes, C. Curius Saturninus, M. Octavius Corvus, C. Aqvillivs Rota
jointly convene the Senate. I, Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus, shall
function as presiding magistrate; however, the jointly convening
Tribunes shall speak freely, without reservation, in the senate as co-
presiding magistrates during the course of this session.

I. The auspicia having been taken by Censor et Augur Caeso Fabius
Buteo Modianus, "Therefore, on the first question concerning the
Senate, AVES ADMITTUNT, the Consul, and co-convening Tribunes, may
assemble the Senate to meet beginning on XIV Kal. Iul. [19 July 2010]."

II. The Senate shall be called into session with discussions beginning
from Monday 00.01 hrs CET Roma, 19 July 2010 to Friday 00.01 hrs CET
Roma, 23 July 2010 [Sunday18.01 EST 18 July to Thurs 18.01 hrs EST 22
July].

III. Voting on the agenda will then begin on Friday 23 July 2010 at
00.02 hrs CET Roma [Thursday 18.02 22 July] and conclude on Sunday 25
July 2010 at 00.02 CET Roma [Saturday 18.02 24 July].

IV. This Edictum becomes effective immediately.

Datum est XVI Kal. Iul. anno a. u. c. MMDCCLXIII P. Memmio K. Fabio
(II) coss. [17 July 2010].

*****************
Vale

Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus

Consul Iterum
Princeps Senatus et Flamen Palatualis
Civis Romanus sum
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Main_Page
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
************************************************
Mons Palatinus, Clivus Victoriae
Palatine Hill, Incline of Victoriae


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85214 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: After the veto... (no coup o' Rly part 2)
Avete Omnes,

One would think that after the veto that all discussion would cease....but
ironicly it did not cease. Debate went on....until the set up began to
occur on July 22nd:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SenatusRomanus/message/17286

An desperate situation?

Salvete Patres et Conscripti!

We have ask ourselves if we are in an deperate situation. With this
question asked I have to point out the bad situation that Nova Roma is
in. Shrinking membership, less and less people who pay taxes and vote.
We are loosing great parts of our Spanish, Italian and Latin American
citizens. No activity in Britannia and very little in Gallia. Those
who are in Sarmatia and other Eastern Europena countries are doing a
splendid job that gives us hope, but they mightalso also soon loose
hope, because of how we act and not act.

Soon there will be very few citizens. Of course we are in an emergency
situation.

This make me extremely worried, Nova Roma is slowly loosing Europe and
Latin America. Is this something we really want? It is time to do
something about this bad developement!

But we still may turn things around. Nova Roma has a splendid goals
and is worth fighting for.

*****************
Vale

Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus

Consul Iterum
Princeps Senatus et Flamen Palatualis
Civis Romanus sum
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Main_Page
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
************************************************
Mons Palatinus, Clivus Victoriae
Palatine Hill, Incline of Victoriae


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85215 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Fwd: Closing the ML Option by Saturnius (one of the Coup Plotters)
Oops reposted to the Senate. When I should have sent it to the ML.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Robert Woolwine <robert.woolwine@...>
Date: Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 10:37 PM
Subject: Closing the ML Option by Saturnius (one of the Coup Plotters)
To: senatusromanus <senatusromanus@yahoogroups.com>


Avete Omnes,

It seemed that responsible speech became a watchword for Censorship and
control - to the point that Tribune Saturnius posted this:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SenatusRomanus/message/17263

Re: [SenatusRomanus] Responsible Speech

Salvete,

Freedom of speech is indeed a two-way deal: the idea of it is to give
freedom
for both parties. It's not freedom to insult and it is not a protection for
those who mishandle the ideal.

In some years ago I proposed that we close down our main mailing list for
few
months and see what happens. I still think this would be a good idea. I bet
that
we would lose only majority of insults and in-fights and gain more
productive
approach to issues. After all, the work would have to be done in private
emails.

Valete,

On 22.7.2010, at 0.20, marcushoratius wrote:

> M. Moravius Piscinus Pontifex Maximus et Senator consularius Consulibus,
Senatoribus et Senatricibus, Quiritibus s. p. d.
>
> Too great an emphasis has been allowed on the ML for "free speech" of
individuals. "Free" to be insulting, offensive, and disrespectful. This sort
of
behavior does not build an amiable atmosphere in which our community can
grow
and develop.
>
> Freedom of speech concerns responsible speech. It means being respectful
when
you address others or read their views. Responsible speech places the
interest
of the Res Publica first.
>
> A strong policy on moderation that curbs self-destructive divisiveness and
promotes responsible speech needs to be emplaced not only on the mainlist,
but
in our Senate and Senaculum as well, since it is from senators that most of
the
offensive speech originates.
>

C. Curius Saturninus
(Mikko Sillanpää)

Rector Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
Senator - Legatus Pro Praetore Provinciae Thules

e-mail: c.curius@...<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SenatusRomanus/post?postID=MnrunTlmS0UOcmYs1v5DcemQK09tKOv0zEQJD1Lm_N0DpOeVoSnnr2kmPxmsNshbkOpiyQDYtBefP5JQAy_TLto>
www.academiathules.org
thule.novaroma.org


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85216 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: Closing the ML Option by Saturnius (one of the Coup Plotters)
And, here is my response:

Re: [SenatusRomanus] Responsible Speech

Satrunius

Free speech, at its essence is NOT a two way deal. Otherwise it wouldn't be
free. You do know what freedom means? Any limits on free speech means you
no longer have free speech. It is pretty much an all or nothing concept.

Closing the ML would be the death of NR. I challenge you to take that
proposal to the ML and see what kind of response you would get.

Vale,

Sulla

On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 10:38 PM, Robert Woolwine <robert.woolwine@...
> wrote:

> Oops reposted to the Senate. When I should have sent it to the ML.
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Robert Woolwine <robert.woolwine@...>
> Date: Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 10:37 PM
> Subject: Closing the ML Option by Saturnius (one of the Coup Plotters)
> To: senatusromanus <senatusromanus@yahoogroups.com>
>
>
> Avete Omnes,
>
> It seemed that responsible speech became a watchword for Censorship and
> control - to the point that Tribune Saturnius posted this:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SenatusRomanus/message/17263
>
> Re: [SenatusRomanus] Responsible Speech
>
> Salvete,
>
> Freedom of speech is indeed a two-way deal: the idea of it is to give
> freedom
> for both parties. It's not freedom to insult and it is not a protection for
> those who mishandle the ideal.
>
> In some years ago I proposed that we close down our main mailing list for
> few
> months and see what happens. I still think this would be a good idea. I bet
> that
> we would lose only majority of insults and in-fights and gain more
> productive
> approach to issues. After all, the work would have to be done in private
> emails.
>
> Valete,
>
> On 22.7.2010, at 0.20, marcushoratius wrote:
>
> > M. Moravius Piscinus Pontifex Maximus et Senator consularius Consulibus,
> Senatoribus et Senatricibus, Quiritibus s. p. d.
> >
> > Too great an emphasis has been allowed on the ML for "free speech" of
> individuals. "Free" to be insulting, offensive, and disrespectful. This
> sort of
> behavior does not build an amiable atmosphere in which our community can
> grow
> and develop.
> >
> > Freedom of speech concerns responsible speech. It means being respectful
> when
> you address others or read their views. Responsible speech places the
> interest
> of the Res Publica first.
> >
> > A strong policy on moderation that curbs self-destructive divisiveness
> and
> promotes responsible speech needs to be emplaced not only on the mainlist,
> but
> in our Senate and Senaculum as well, since it is from senators that most of
> the
> offensive speech originates.
> >
>
> C. Curius Saturninus
> (Mikko Sillanpää)
>
> Rector Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
> Senator - Legatus Pro Praetore Provinciae Thules
>
> e-mail: c.curius@...<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SenatusRomanus/post?postID=MnrunTlmS0UOcmYs1v5DcemQK09tKOv0zEQJD1Lm_N0DpOeVoSnnr2kmPxmsNshbkOpiyQDYtBefP5JQAy_TLto>
> www.academiathules.org
> thule.novaroma.org
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85217 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: And the debate continues......
Ave!

Until...Perusianus posts on July 22! He posts the following:

I've something to say....

Rome, 5pm, extremely hot.

Salvete presiding Consul Patresque,

today was the day when, back from a long trip in the land of Apulia, many
thoughts about NR crossed my head, maybe as never before. Yesterday a
pleasant
dinner and a long talk with my old friend Fr.Apulus Caesar, down there in
his
very homeland, unveiled me some aspects it was hard to make them so clear
before.

FAC was once very active in NR but now only a Senator who prefers to read
now
and then about what's going on in this community. Talking with him I could
still
see his old entusiam, like a sort of little flame or, if you prefer, a fire
under the ashes. But every time he comes back he see the old same story.

You will forgive me if I talk about the Italic situation which is, I
believe,
something that you can find everywhere and could be used as a simple.

We talked about what NR were at the top of the Italian situation when we had
three senators, a consul, a praetor and other magistrates at the same time;
we
even got three aediles curulis in a row!

Where are all that people, we asked? Remember Serapio, Iulius Sulla,
Flaminius,
Quirinus? Fled away. Why? Disappointment because NR loves to eat herself.
That
is to say we're able to create projects (sometime different form our
targets,
whatever this should be) but unable to finalize.

Reasons and our final statements? Our collegial system of guidance, too
democracy probably, where everyone can stop a changing process, good or bad
can
it be. Well, he is fed up...and myself as well.

Sic et simpliciter, we need a dictator NOW; someone who can decide for
everyone,
make us cross this eternal swamp and revitalize this community. I've been
thinking 'why not?', this is not to give up with the Roman system, it's
still so
Roman after all. So, Consul and Patres, why not a dictator? I ask for a
dictatorship!

Who? I thought about some names but, maybe, these people could not encounter
everyone's consent and approval. So I thought about a possible name who,
once
received his public consent and your benediction, he could be our favourite
candidate.

Patres, I ask for Gnaeus Equitius Marinus to stand for dictator and to you
to
give him your blessing

valete
M IVL PERVSIANVS
Senator and Aedilis Urbis


--- In SenatusRomanus@yahoogroups.com<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SenatusRomanus/post?postID=amMIhf2DdZXnyDi46W5qWJ-aCkSWeFEaYfuZiCtOavniLLtRUg2oNhMCjwAPWOrFNx2rcHb-DcaVeKxayTeGC4vtSufscMZU>,
"M Iul Perusianus" <peraznanie@...>
wrote:
>
> Avete omnes,
>
>
>
> I've been a NRomans for more than 8 years now and, honestly, I can witness
> NR is losing credibility month after month. All these fights, a lot of
talks
> about little things totally not relevant for the real targets of our
> community, etc. well, this makes potential citizens and citizens
themselves
> to flee.
>
>
>
> Don't you all think that the recent Conventus in Rome can be classified as
a
> failure? Why we had more than 30 people in 2005 which is a huge crowd
> compared with this year meeting? Money and time problems? Yes
probably�.but
> it's equally true that in other times one person could find extra
resources
> to meet other NRomans.
>
> And this is because of our way of making (well, "no-making") things:
JSTOR,
> Magna Mater, just to name two. Even to have a new website seems to be last
> of our problem of many of you.
>
> I have a day-by-day relationship with other people in Rome and, believe
me,
> this is what all of them think. To talk about NR projects is a sort of
joke.
>
>
>
> Let me say that if we wish to save the Res Publica this is the time, the
> point of no return. Please everyone, be responsible, think for the best of
> NR and make a step back in your expectations if this could help to let NR
> make a (even little) step forward.
>
>
>
> IMHO
>
> Valete
>
> A very worried Perusianus
>
>
>
> _____
>
> Da: SenatusRomanus@yahoogroups.com<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SenatusRomanus/post?postID=amMIhf2DdZXnyDi46W5qWJ-aCkSWeFEaYfuZiCtOavniLLtRUg2oNhMCjwAPWOrFNx2rcHb-DcaVeKxayTeGC4vtSufscMZU>
[mailto:SenatusRomanus@yahoogroups.com<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SenatusRomanus/post?postID=amMIhf2DdZXnyDi46W5qWJ-aCkSWeFEaYfuZiCtOavniLLtRUg2oNhMCjwAPWOrFNx2rcHb-DcaVeKxayTeGC4vtSufscMZU>
]
> Per conto di rory kirshner
> Inviato: mercoled� 21 luglio 2010 23.48
> A: SenatusRomanus@yahoogroups.com<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SenatusRomanus/post?postID=amMIhf2DdZXnyDi46W5qWJ-aCkSWeFEaYfuZiCtOavniLLtRUg2oNhMCjwAPWOrFNx2rcHb-DcaVeKxayTeGC4vtSufscMZU>
> Oggetto: Re: [SenatusRomanus] Re: Sententia M. Moravii
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Salvete;
>
> Something has to be done on the ML. Nova Roma has a terrible
> reputation, the dysfunctional cycle just has to stop. We need to restore
it
> to a place where people won't be scared off..Where we can stop the cycle
and
> build relationships.
>
> Maior
>
>
>
>
>
> Salvete
>
> This last (below) is an excellent point. With no basis in history, and
> contrary to common sense, we have a system where any malcontent can
promote
> any anything at all, no matter how untrue, and have it appear publicly
> *under our brand*. We have the responsibility to protect our reputation by
> controlling what is published under our name. The idea that what we have
now
> is superior in an ideological way is just false.
>
> valete
>
> Agricola
>
> --- In SenatusRomanus@yahoogroups.com<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SenatusRomanus/post?postID=amMIhf2DdZXnyDi46W5qWJ-aCkSWeFEaYfuZiCtOavniLLtRUg2oNhMCjwAPWOrFNx2rcHb-DcaVeKxayTeGC4vtSufscMZU>,
"marcushoratius" <MHoratius@>
> wrote:
> >
> > M. Moravius Piscinus Senatricibus Senatoribusque, patribus m�tribusque
> conscript�s salutem plurimam dicit:
> >
> > On the issue of new By-laws, there are two distinctly different
proposals.
> They are far apart in their approach to our needs. In my opinion there is
no
> way to reconcile those two approachs. Then will be the greater problem of
> trying to pass whatever new By-laws might be proposed. I have to agree
with
> Senatrix Hortensia that without any mention of the religio Romana, nor any
> protection for its central position in our res publica, it will not be
> possible. And the issue of nation and state that divides people will have
to
> be resolved first through both sides explaining their definitions of these
> terms. Only then could we begin to come together and form a consensus of
> what we all mean by the words in the Constituion and/or by-laws. If anyone
> could bring all the diverse ideas together to meet our needs and
compromise
> on points of difference, then I agree with Consul Quintilianus that
> Censorius Marinus would be a good choice. But for right now, the by-laws
> issue is not being resolved.
> >
> > It looks as though we may be able to agree, or have a majority agree, on
> our need, and the cost we can afford, for an IT rewrite.
> >
> > However, to make any real headway on the IT issue and be able to
continue
> to fund the website when built, we shall need to have a CFO and other
> responsible officers. This issue also reflects back on the issue with the
> by-laws. At present it too cannot be resolved.
> >
> > No resolutions will be possible, not now, not in the future, until we
have
> an atmosphere of cooperation and compromise to produce solutions to our
> problems. A friendly atmosphere builds community. Petty quarrels, insult,
> divisiveness, disrespect, mindless quips and nonsensical retorts is not
> constructive and does not attract constructive people to help us build a
> future. Nor does such a quarrelsome atmosphere attract donations to our
> civitas. Resolve this problem and we will be better able to deal with the
> needs of the res publica.
> >
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85218 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Immediately followed by:
Ave!

By the endorsements of Agricola (recently citizenship removed), Caeso
Fabius, Piscinus, and saturnius all within an hour a part (intentionally??
you be the judge)! 20 min Marinus posts accepting the proposal naming him
as Dictator. And Caeso Fabius (5 min late) amending the agenda item - and
posted this to the senate 30 min later!

And Scholastica and Livia wants ALL of you, citizens of Nova Roma to believe
that there was no coup attempt? PLEASE!

Read it and judge!

Vale,

Sulla

Salvete Patres et Conscripti!

Below You will find the most important proposal in years aimed at
saving the Res Publica. If we unite and suport this proposal we willl
create a good enviroment for Censorius G, Marinus to work in as
dictator and his chances to succeed wil increase a lot.

************

Item 3. Dictatorship

The Senate of Nova Roma, having convened in an emergency session,
considers that:

Whereas the current situation in Nova Roma threatens the very
existence of Nova Roma both as a nation and as a membership
organization, and,

Whereas these crises in our organization and corporation, our
finances, and our technical problems result from many causes that must
be addressed so as to avoid Nova Roma from harm, as well as to ensure
the orderly and enjoyable continuation of Nova Roma, and,

Whereas any solutions to these present crises should and must be done
in accordance with the governing bodies of law,

Do we, the Senate of Nova Roma, by the vote of a majority, hereby
appoint Gnaeus Equitius Marinus to the office of Dictator, and invest
in him complete auctoritas and imperium for a period of no more than
six months, trusting in him to resolve the present crises and take
whatever steps he deems necessary to prevent future harm to the Res
Publica Populi Novae Romae.

The Senate conveys resolution of the following tasks, although not
limited to these alone, to Cn. Equitius Marinus:

To oversee the rewriting of corporate bylaws for Nova Roma, Inc

To have the Constitution and subordinate laws reviewed for the purpose
of amending or replacing them as are necessary to protect the
respublica from harm

To resolve the IT issues that threaten our website and on which the
functions of the respublica rely

To restructure voting procedures to make them robust against loss of
technical programs or equipment.

To simplify the magisterial structure to provide fewer magistrates
with better defined roles.


In the name of the Senate and the People of the Nova Roma, and in the
sight of the Gods and Goddesses of the People of Nova Roma, under the
provision of the Constitution IV.B.1, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus,
Censorius is hereby appointed Dictator and Magister Populi of Nova Roma.



*****************
Vale

Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus

Consul Iterum
Princeps Senatus et Flamen Palatualis
Civis Romanus sum
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Main_Page
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
************************************************
Mons Palatinus, Clivus Victoriae
Palatine Hill, Incline of Victoriae



+++++


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85219 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Statement from Consul Albucius
Ave!

And after the illegal senate meeting....Consul Albucius posts this
statement:

Collegae Tribunis Senatoribus omn.que
To every member of the Board and officers of Nova Roma Inc.


You may have seen that I did not take part to this meeting of the Senate.

Things are simple in my view : the veto I opposed this session makes this
meeting void and illegal and, with it, all its decisions.

Naturally and once again, voices will be heard about the so-called
impossibility to veto a tribunician call, for, to remind every one the odd
circumstances of this meeting, my colleague agree with tribunes to issue a
joint call so that I may not veto it, a consul being not authorized vetoing
a tribunician action.
���
But this manoeuver witnesses a major misunderstanding of Roman Laws and how
a Roman State work: the first principle is that consuls may veto each
other's act, the tribunes, similarly, each other's act and, in addition,
that a tribune may veto a consular act. The second principle is that each of
these types of magistrates cannot convene jointly, just because, and it is
simple to understand, such joint call would block the constitutional power
of veto of the others. The third principle is that each type of magistrates
(the consulate on one side and the tribunate on the other) have defined
powers considering their relation to the Senate : a consul may convene and
chair it with no other limitation than a possible veto to her/his call ; a
tribune may convene and chair in the limitation of a tribunician veto (which
means that a consul cannot veto a tribune), but also, in Nova Roma, in the
limitation brought by the still in force Senatus consultum de ratione
Senatus 11 November 2756 (
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/senate/2003-11-11-i.html), which says:

""The Senate may be convened by a consul, praetor, or tribunus plebis. The
magistrate convening the Senate shall hereafter be referred to as the
presiding magistrate.
A consul may convene the Senate for any purpose.
A praetor may convene the Senate for any purpose when both consuls are
unavailable.
A tribunus plebis may convene the Senate in order to ask the Senate's advice
on any subject which is clearly within the scope of his constitutionally
mandated powers and obligations.""
���
All other arguments are irrelevant. Towards my ex-colleague praetor Equitius
Marinus, whose I know the special attention he shows to the tribunes of the
Plebs, and who said in this meeting that :
"the Tribunes are the ultimate judges of whether or not a given action is
Constitutional. It seems obvious to me that at least four of the five
elected Tribunes think that we
are in legal session. There is no appeal of their decision. None. That's
what the Constitution gives us. Whatever a majority of Tribunes decides is
what we must accept as Constitutional.",

I am afraid that he takes a political position, or at best issues a personal
conviction, that I may respect as such, with a legal situation : as he and I
well stated last year as praetors, a tribunician act is respectable as long
as it is constitutional/ legal. We lived such a situation last year, and
confirmed to Cos. Complutensis, this basic rule. We are in the same kind of
situation here: the four tribunes and the consul committed an
inconstitutionality which deprives the ones and the other of any legal base
and legitimacy in their act. In order to try to speak Hon. Marinus '
language, I would say that his argument sounds as if I pretended that the
gravitation force must be the only one to be taken in consideration in the
equations relative to our universe, just because it may appear of the most
important or seeable one.

This meeting, badly started, could not give birth to wise and productive
decisions. I may be wrong, naturally, but the By-Laws question seem having
been introduced just to serve as a smoke curtain, to convince some members
of the Opposition to be indulgent with the calling consul's proposals, and
to show the innocent intentions of the magistrates who decided, suddendly,
that the Republic was in a such danger that the Senate should be called with
no consultation of the consul maior. After some discussions, by a much
surprising random, the question of the dictatorship popped up.

In this context, I decide, as member of the Board of Nova Roma Inc. and in
due consideration of the risks, legal and financial, that the so-called
decisions taken by this meeting would make run to Nova Roma, to each of its
directors and members, to lay the following observations, in the frame of
Maine Law, that I ask A. ZAVOIANU, Secretary of Nova Roma Inc. to duly
record, and so that the respective legal responsibilities, under Maine Law,
be clearly established.

*LEGAL OBSERVATION under M.R.S.A.

I, Christophe PUISSANT, first president of Nova Roma Inc., in due
consideration of my duties to protect the interests of the Corporation in
the frame of the incorporation Law, on this July 24, 2010, deem necessary to
observe that the meeting of NR Board, which will be closed on Su. 25
midnight Rome time, and which was convened by the second president, Christer
Edling, along with the four officers called in NR inc. internal vocabulary
"Tribunes of the Plebs" (the fifth Tribune, J.-F. Arnoud having not taken
part), with no previous information of and therefore no agreement with me,
was not convened in the forms required, either in its text or in its derived
norms, by the "Constitution" of our corporation, which currently makes
office of by-laws of the corporation. This absence of the required legal
forms makes in my view this meeting, and all the decisions that may have
been taken in it, as void for illegal, both in regard of NR Inc. internal
own rules and regulations, but also towards Maine Law, and specially the
Maine R.S. Act. As such I consider this meeting and its so-called
"decisions" as void and illegal and does not consider myself as the whole
Corporation, legally bound by them.
I deem necessary to add that both the way I, as first president, have been
kept unaware of the foreseen meeting, and the decisions proposed to the
Board, including one during the meeting (a "dictatorship" which forbids the
president to take any action and replace it by a member chosen by the Board
; a IT contract of USD 10,000) make me think that this move has been
organized in the intention to take the control of NR Inc. Board, of its
Finances and Budget, and to hide the Board and the members of the
association, the risks that NR Inc. may run in both matters.

*I will come back towards the Senate, the People and the magistrates to take
the needed consequences of the situation that this ill-convened session and
its contents have created.

Valete omnes,


P. Memmius Albucius
consul

------------------------------
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gratuitement <http://clk.atdmt.com/FRM/go/232102478/direct/01/>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85220 From: V. Valerius Volusus Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: [Nova_roma_] Re: [newroman] Roman Virtues: Auctoritas
V. Valerius Volusus omnibus in foro S.P.D.

Thank you Valeriane for opening up this series of discussions. I think that
a lot of good comments have already been contributed, but I may have a
slightly different outlook with regard to Auctoritas than what has already
been offered. I would like to share my thoughts and opinions, but with the
understanding that I do so without any intention of refuting what others
have already said. I only offer up a particular view that may be found to be
useful to others, or not. I prefer to write assertively and not to preface
every statement with "I think" or IMHO in the modern democratic manner. In
most cases I simply state my view with the understanding that I make no
pretense to be writing WITH auctoritas. Please feel free to add before any
statement that may appear objectionable with the magic formula "IMHO"
wherever it may be deemed necessary :D

Auctoritas should not be confused with potestas or imperium. I personally
think auctoritas has nothing to do with earning respect, political or public
honors, or anything else of that sort. As with anything that is truly called
a virtue auctoritas cannot be bestowed or conferred upon one by another.
Virtues are inviolable and are not in anyone's power but ourselves. Rather,
auctoritas may be considered the fruit of virtue. Plutarch related the
sayings of the Spartans (Moralia) and one example from these apophthegms
demonstrates what I think auctoritas looks like when stripped of public
approval:

*"Agis, the last of the kings of Sparta, was arrested as the result of
treachery and condemned by the Ephors without a trial. As he was being led
away to the halter he saw one of the officers weeping, and said, "Stop your
weeping for me, man. For in spite of my being put to death in such defiance
of law and justice, I am superior to those who are taking my life." With
these words he willingly offered his neck for the noose."*

Agis, as a king rigorously trained in virtue from birth (as were all
Spartans) knew that though he was being unjustly treated he had no cause for
disgrace and could submit to an inglorious death with honor and dignity.
Thus, though reviled he was secure in his auctoritas. A more contemporary
example would be the conduct of Nelson Mandela during his imprisonment. He
refused to accept the label or adopt the attitude of a terrorist or
criminal, though he was imprisoned for decades by the authorities. He
remained secure in and drew from his auctoritas. It was his defense of this
auctoritas against every effort to strip it from him that eventually made
him the founder (auctor) of a new free African polity.

You can be lying in a gutter or living in a barrel like Diogenes of Sinope,
yet have greater auctoritas than Alexander the Great (vide. Diogene's
discourses with Alexander). It is not bestowed by others but grown like a
flower from the rich soil of inner virtue and wisdom.

A person who acts with auctoritas does not justify her actions with an
appeal to auctoritas, but simply acts with the virtue appropriate to every
circumstance in such a way that her auctoritas is self-evident to those who
recognize virtue: shining as it does with the glow of truth and justice. In
this way it is impossible to fake auctoritas. It may be recognized and
acknowledged, but it can never be conferred or taken away by anyone.

It is also something of a divine power, in that it has the god-like power of
bringing into being an entirely new state of affairs or a new order in the
world. Thus, Romulus had auctoritas to found the city of Rome. Numa Rex had
auctoritas to found the religious institutions of Rome. Likewise, Brutus et
al had auctoritas to found the Respublica, and Augustus to found the
Principate. When you found a new family or a new business then it might be
said that you are also exercising the power of auctoritas in respect to that
family or business.

This is my understanding of auctoritas but mileage may certainly vary. I do
think a person may be respected for their auctoritas, but equally a person
can be reviled for the same virtue depending on the direction the political
winds may blow. If it deserves to be held as a virtue then it must belong to
us entirely and cannot be conferred or taken away. We may acknowledge
auctoritas, but we should not imagine that it is ever in our power to confer
it upon anyone. Even the gods themselves do not retain prerogatives over our
virtue - it is the free gift of IOM.

Di vos incolumes custodiant.



On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 10:42 AM, luciaiuliaaquila <
luciaiuliaaquila@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Iulia Mariae vestalis Tullio auguri Corneli senatori omnibusque S.P.D.
>
> It is the elected official who brings great dignitas to an office just as
> an elected official could effectively turn an office into a mockery. Even
> the most loyal citizen would have a hard time respecting an office
> spearheaded by an official who abuses the authority and expectations of the
> office. So, no Senator Sulla, it would not be the same thing but, at least
> in my mind, auctoritas is a given pertaining to a magistrate elected by
> popular vote just by its very nature that s/he is elected because s/he is
> trusted as a leader and will be obeyed based on past merits. This also
> extends to sat a general, who came up through the ranks based on merits and
> example (as already mentioned as well. The old investment firm slogan "when
> E.F. Hutton speaks, everyone listens" is a good example of auctoritas.
> The psychological component of auctoritas was much stronger, as it was in
> my parents day, as part of upbringing was to instill a strong respect for
> authority which reinforces a primitive survival instinct we still possess to
> an extent. Most of us would be easily detained by an impostor in a
> convincing police uniform and few of us would ask for identification or call
> the local precinct to confirm this is a policeman.
>
> Pietas would include individual respecting for an office, the state. And
> this would most certainly be based in part on the dignitas and auctoritas of
> the individual magistrate - also gravitas, aequitas hand in hand with fides.
> The concept of "respect" covers a wide range of virtues.
>
> When discussing virtues, it is difficult to discuss just one on its own
> merit because virtues depend upon, and overlap onto, other virtues.
> Including both public and personal.
>
> Just for discussion, there were other virtues in ancient Rome as well, ones
> not documented as such because of to whom they applied but it did not make
> them any less virtues. Humility for example, a desirable virtue in a slave -
> but might be viewed as weakness in a Roman citizen. For the individual
> fortunate enough to be a Roman citizen clementia and frugalitas might be
> closest to humility for the free Roman, but of course without the
> submissiveness and subservience.
>
> Vale, et valete,
>
> Julia
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "C.Maria Caeca" <c.mariacaeca@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > C. Maria Caeca C. Tullio Valeriano Germanico Auguri S. P. D.
> >
> > Oh, yes, of course, and you are also correct, I think, in that the
> auctoritas given to any magistrate had best be solidly built upon personal
> auctoritas. History shows us excellent of both examples, both in Ancient
> Rome and in our own country.
> >
> > Vale bene!
> > C. Maria Caeca
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85221 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: [Nova_roma_] Re: [newroman] Roman Virtues: Auctoritas
Gaius Tullius Valerianus V. Valerio Voluso omnibusque in foro S.P.D.

Salve et salvete!

Voluse, your point about virtues being, by definition, inviolable and
entirely within our own power is (of course) a Stoic doctrine. I agree,
though not all philosophies agree with Stoicism on this point. But there is
an element of *Auctoritas * that *does *fit this definition, which you may
have missed. It's not just an authority you wield. *Respect for *rightful
authority is a part of it. I practice *auctoritas *when I recognize the
rightful authority of others in certain situations. To show respect to one
who deserves it is a right act, for a Stoic.

So while it is true that the Roman virtues in general, and *auctoritas *in
particular, may not be equivalent to the *Virtus* of Seneca or *Arete *of
Epictetus and Marcus Aurelius, it is still *a *virtue, if not *the *virtue.


On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 1:37 AM, V. Valerius Volusus <nykcowham@...>wrote:

> V. Valerius Volusus omnibus in foro S.P.D.
>
> Thank you Valeriane for opening up this series of discussions. I think that
> a lot of good comments have already been contributed, but I may have a
> slightly different outlook with regard to Auctoritas than what has already
> been offered. I would like to share my thoughts and opinions, but with the
> understanding that I do so without any intention of refuting what others
> have already said. I only offer up a particular view that may be found to
> be
> useful to others, or not. I prefer to write assertively and not to preface
> every statement with "I think" or IMHO in the modern democratic manner. In
> most cases I simply state my view with the understanding that I make no
> pretense to be writing WITH auctoritas. Please feel free to add before any
> statement that may appear objectionable with the magic formula "IMHO"
> wherever it may be deemed necessary :D
>
> Auctoritas should not be confused with potestas or imperium. I personally
> think auctoritas has nothing to do with earning respect, political or
> public
> honors, or anything else of that sort. As with anything that is truly
> called
> a virtue auctoritas cannot be bestowed or conferred upon one by another.
> Virtues are inviolable and are not in anyone's power but ourselves. Rather,
> auctoritas may be considered the fruit of virtue. Plutarch related the
> sayings of the Spartans (Moralia) and one example from these apophthegms
> demonstrates what I think auctoritas looks like when stripped of public
> approval:
>
> *"Agis, the last of the kings of Sparta, was arrested as the result of
> treachery and condemned by the Ephors without a trial. As he was being led
> away to the halter he saw one of the officers weeping, and said, "Stop your
> weeping for me, man. For in spite of my being put to death in such defiance
> of law and justice, I am superior to those who are taking my life." With
> these words he willingly offered his neck for the noose."*
>
> Agis, as a king rigorously trained in virtue from birth (as were all
> Spartans) knew that though he was being unjustly treated he had no cause
> for
> disgrace and could submit to an inglorious death with honor and dignity.
> Thus, though reviled he was secure in his auctoritas. A more contemporary
> example would be the conduct of Nelson Mandela during his imprisonment. He
> refused to accept the label or adopt the attitude of a terrorist or
> criminal, though he was imprisoned for decades by the authorities. He
> remained secure in and drew from his auctoritas. It was his defense of this
> auctoritas against every effort to strip it from him that eventually made
> him the founder (auctor) of a new free African polity.
>
> You can be lying in a gutter or living in a barrel like Diogenes of Sinope,
> yet have greater auctoritas than Alexander the Great (vide. Diogene's
> discourses with Alexander). It is not bestowed by others but grown like a
> flower from the rich soil of inner virtue and wisdom.
>
> A person who acts with auctoritas does not justify her actions with an
> appeal to auctoritas, but simply acts with the virtue appropriate to every
> circumstance in such a way that her auctoritas is self-evident to those who
> recognize virtue: shining as it does with the glow of truth and justice. In
> this way it is impossible to fake auctoritas. It may be recognized and
> acknowledged, but it can never be conferred or taken away by anyone.
>
> It is also something of a divine power, in that it has the god-like power
> of
> bringing into being an entirely new state of affairs or a new order in the
> world. Thus, Romulus had auctoritas to found the city of Rome. Numa Rex had
> auctoritas to found the religious institutions of Rome. Likewise, Brutus et
> al had auctoritas to found the Respublica, and Augustus to found the
> Principate. When you found a new family or a new business then it might be
> said that you are also exercising the power of auctoritas in respect to
> that
> family or business.
>
> This is my understanding of auctoritas but mileage may certainly vary. I do
> think a person may be respected for their auctoritas, but equally a person
> can be reviled for the same virtue depending on the direction the political
> winds may blow. If it deserves to be held as a virtue then it must belong
> to
> us entirely and cannot be conferred or taken away. We may acknowledge
> auctoritas, but we should not imagine that it is ever in our power to
> confer
> it upon anyone. Even the gods themselves do not retain prerogatives over
> our
> virtue - it is the free gift of IOM.
>
> Di vos incolumes custodiant.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 10:42 AM, luciaiuliaaquila <
> luciaiuliaaquila@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Iulia Mariae vestalis Tullio auguri Corneli senatori omnibusque S.P.D.
> >
> > It is the elected official who brings great dignitas to an office just as
> > an elected official could effectively turn an office into a mockery. Even
> > the most loyal citizen would have a hard time respecting an office
> > spearheaded by an official who abuses the authority and expectations of
> the
> > office. So, no Senator Sulla, it would not be the same thing but, at
> least
> > in my mind, auctoritas is a given pertaining to a magistrate elected by
> > popular vote just by its very nature that s/he is elected because s/he is
> > trusted as a leader and will be obeyed based on past merits. This also
> > extends to sat a general, who came up through the ranks based on merits
> and
> > example (as already mentioned as well. The old investment firm slogan
> "when
> > E.F. Hutton speaks, everyone listens" is a good example of auctoritas.
> > The psychological component of auctoritas was much stronger, as it was in
> > my parents day, as part of upbringing was to instill a strong respect for
> > authority which reinforces a primitive survival instinct we still possess
> to
> > an extent. Most of us would be easily detained by an impostor in a
> > convincing police uniform and few of us would ask for identification or
> call
> > the local precinct to confirm this is a policeman.
> >
> > Pietas would include individual respecting for an office, the state. And
> > this would most certainly be based in part on the dignitas and auctoritas
> of
> > the individual magistrate - also gravitas, aequitas hand in hand with
> fides.
> > The concept of "respect" covers a wide range of virtues.
> >
> > When discussing virtues, it is difficult to discuss just one on its own
> > merit because virtues depend upon, and overlap onto, other virtues.
> > Including both public and personal.
> >
> > Just for discussion, there were other virtues in ancient Rome as well,
> ones
> > not documented as such because of to whom they applied but it did not
> make
> > them any less virtues. Humility for example, a desirable virtue in a
> slave -
> > but might be viewed as weakness in a Roman citizen. For the individual
> > fortunate enough to be a Roman citizen clementia and frugalitas might be
> > closest to humility for the free Roman, but of course without the
> > submissiveness and subservience.
> >
> > Vale, et valete,
> >
> > Julia
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "C.Maria Caeca" <c.mariacaeca@...>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > C. Maria Caeca C. Tullio Valeriano Germanico Auguri S. P. D.
> > >
> > > Oh, yes, of course, and you are also correct, I think, in that the
> > auctoritas given to any magistrate had best be solidly built upon
> personal
> > auctoritas. History shows us excellent of both examples, both in Ancient
> > Rome and in our own country.
> > >
> > > Vale bene!
> > > C. Maria Caeca
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85222 From: Cn. Cornelius Lentulus Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: R: [Nova-Roma] No coup? O Rly?
Lentulus omnibus sal.

I don't want to waste my time on this discussion since I have explained my point of view several times in this and other mailing lists already. But as one of the many citizens who applauded the idea of appointing Marinus as dictator, I feel it's my moral obligation to comment and to repeat again that what happened last year it was NOT a "coup", and it is UTTERLY RIDICULOUS, PRETENTIOUS, AND POMPOUS to call it a "coup". But, of course, all of us must have the right to use the word which fits his taste.

I, Scholastica, Livia - and I know that many other citizens - don't think that an appointment of a constitutional dictator can be labeled as a "coup", especially when it is done in a very serious crisis: exactly in a situation for what it is invented by our Constitution as a means of solution.

I don't exactly know what Scholastica or Livia exactly think, but for me what happened last year was an attempt to save Nova Roma from the ongoing chaos by appointing a dictator, a very legal, constitutional and Roman thing, and it was initially supported by all senators except 1-2, later still by the overwhelming majority. Almost everyone wanted the dictator.

Was this dictator election a pre-organized political action? OF COURSE it was, it had to be, as all well-thought-out political actions are pre-organized and conscious actions. I have presonally and repeatedly advocated for appointing a dictator in this very same mailing list since the beginning of the decline of NR. Many citizens trusted Marinus and I still think that he was an example of leadership, and he as a senior consular and esteemed senator could have introduced the necessary reforms into NR. For our detriment, and ever growing stagnation, he was not appointed as dictator and NR is today where it is. Only if we had Marinus as dictator!... I think we were light years ahead today as compared to this dead frozen state in which NR stagnates without leadership...

So, what some very colorfully call a "coup d'etate", is viewed by many others as a heroic attempt to save Nova Roma from the
internal warrings, stagnation and decline, using the constitutional option appointing a person trusted by most people as dictator.

Unfortunately, the organizers of this dictator election committed an error - and this is why I must accept that the appointment was indeed not regular, thus not completely lawful.

Why?

The dictator election attempt was executed using legally questionable means, i.e. circumventing Albucius' consular veto by Consul Quintilianus' convening the senate jointly with the tribunes, which was (and still is) a matter of debate whether it is legal or illegal, but the debate was officially concluded by the rest of tribunes as illegal - though there are numerous theoretical objections. I, as a law respecting citizen, accepted the veto of the tribunes, and I still don't question the outcome: the dictator was vetoed. Cn. Marinus Censorius dictator-elect accepted it too. No dictator entered office.

That the dictator election failed it was a tragedy, because I firmly
beleive that Marinus as dictator could have stoped the stagnation of
Nova Roma, could have solved our many technical and organizational
problems including our IT problems immediately. Since then very few
improvements was made on NR, and today it seems clearer than ever that
the need for the dictator was fully justified.

As for the featuring of a dictatorial appointment as a "coup d'etat", it is exaggerating, idiotic and pompous. What was, however, and still is a proper question regarding those events it is whether the consul can convene a senate session jointly by the tribunes or not. As it came out Nova Roma did not accept that legal approach, and thus the dictator was not deemed elected properly.

So, accept that facts:

1) the dictator is a normal and legal solution in NR's constitution for handling crises;
2) many Nova Romans and senators wanted that dictator to handle the crisis of last year;
3) the intention and purpose with the dictator was legal since the institution itself is a legal NR institution;
4) the authority which was appointing it was legal since it's the prerogative of the senate, and it was the senate which was electing Marinus;
5) HOWEVER, the way of convening the senate (a consul JOINTLY with the tribunes) was dubious, and some accepted it as a legal way of convening the senate, since our laws did not prohibit it, some thought that it was not provided by our laws as an option because our laws did not explicitely allow it.
6) This way the whole business of appointing the dictator came to a legalistic dispute where the other consul and the other tribunes vetoed it, and finally Marinus himself declined the position.

End of the story.

Some are now convinced that Marinus as a dictator would have done tyrannic actions. Many others are convinced that Marinus would have been a true healer of our illnesses and a fair and just leader. Since Marinus has never been installed as dictator all what goes beyond the facts are mere fantasy. I personally am most convinced that Marinus would have never wanted confrontation with the law, consequently he as dictator would have worked for the benefit of all of NR.

However, it is not the point of my message. The point of my message is the following:

We can say that the dictator election was halted and the details of the procedure of convoking the session deemed irregular; BUT no one with sane judgement can call it a "coup d'etat" since the dictator, appointed by the senate, is a LEGAL, CONSTITUTIONAL and lawful institution in the NR Constitution. It can not be called a "coup" what is constitutional. All legal criteria were satisfied, except the bit with the joint consular-trinunicial convoking of the senate session, which is a matter of law interpretation, since it is not explicitely forbidden. Moreover, when it was vetoed, the whole procedure was terminated, and the dictator was not installed: consequently no law was violated.

The conclusion is this: neither Scholastica, nor Livia, nor I are denying that SOMETHING happaned last year. And I AM confirming that what happened then it was legally problematic. But what I am saying with Scholatica and with others, it is that an office which is constitutional can not be called a "coup".


I will not discuss this topic again: in the archieves you will find my full arguing among the old posts. I know that if you carefully think on the things what I have written, you will see that there is no justification to call last year events as a "coup". So there can not be a justified difference of opinion, unless one is driven purely emotionally against the whole issue. Where our opinions can, however, differ in the greatest extent it is whether the intention with the dictator was good or bad. But it is to decide for each citizen individually, since the dictatorship, as it came out, never started on.




















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85223 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
Gaius Tullius Valerianus Aulae Tulliae Scholasticae S.P.D.


> > Ah, but Scholastica, I am not the one who adjudged the RPR to be our
> > enemy. That was the Senate, a body to which you belong, not I.
> >
> > ATS2: Ah, but I did not vote for this nonsense. Since the Senate is
> > otherwise composed of members of the faction formerly known as Boni, my
> vote
> > carries very little weight. In any case, the vote of the Senate is
> > irrelevant; the Senate could vote that Obama was a blue-eyed Swede, but
> that
> > does not make him one.
>

The fact that you did not vote for it may be to your credit, Scholastica,
but the fact that remains is that the Senate has decided NR's official
position regarding the RPR, So the official position is our official
position. No comparison to voting that Obama looks like me (well, I'm of
Swedish descent).

Facts are facts.

> >
> > ATS2: Well, maybe they are not. Maybe things have been presented to you
> > in a way which is not at all factual.
>

I am willing to admit that possibility. And when I discover that I am wrong,
I am willing to admit it, and change my mind. But no evidence to the
contrary of these facts (or apparent facts) has been forthcoming.



> > - and he did avoid direct responsibility in the
> > attempted coup to overthrow the Roman government last year,
> >
> > ATS2: There was no coup to overthrow the government of NR.
>

Well no, Scholastica, there was no coup. Because we stopped it, we defeated
it, we prevented it from happening. I say "we" because I mean myself and
others. I think I was the first to openly oppose what was happening. Others
soon followed. Dexter's stand as tribune was nothing short of heroic.
Albucius' stand as consul, likewise. I know you weren't part of the plot,
Scholastica, but you also didn't do much to stop it. Still, Rome has faced
worse. Compared to Catiline, Piscinus and his plotters were a laugh.

> Really? You mean there is not an SCU in place declaring it so,
> >
> >
> > ATS2: Just maybe that SCU was railroaded by your landlord and his pals.
> > Unless it reflects actual fact, its content is irrelevant. What did
> Agricola
> > do, anyway? Why was RPR deemed hostile? I see no reason to consider it as
> > such. Other organizations have formed along the lines of NR (SVR, etc.),
> but
> > suddenly this particular one is a worse threat than Communism in 1950.
>

I think the reasoning was hashed out in the Senate ad nauseam, and you, as a
member of the Senate, know it better than I do. Whether you look at the
corporate model (NR Inc. cannot be friendly with a rival company, RPR Inc,
any more than Coca-Cola wants to help Pepsi sell its products) or the
national model (Nova Roma IS the Roman Republic. Anyone splitting off to
form their own Roman Republic is no better than, say, Quintus Sertorius in
Hispania, or the Italian Socii rising up against Roma . . . enemies of Rome.
They cannot claim to be us. This is not a roleplaying game. We are who we
are.


> > ATS2: Government by SCU seems popular these days. It¹s easier than doing
> > things the right way.
>

I agree that there has been entirely too much of it. But there has often
been no other apparent way to get things done. The political and social
machinery of Nova Roma is broken, and has been for some time. It is
necessary to start taking positive steps to fix this. Next year's consuls
will have a massive task ahead of them.


> > ATS2: There was no coup. Maybe there was a plan to get things moving
> > again, but I wasn¹t a party to any of this, so I don¹t know. In any case,
> > there is nothing wrong with a Roman dictatorship when circumstances
> merit. It
> > seems that Vedius held at least one (if not more) of them.
>

I agree that there is nothing wrong with Roman dictatorship, actually, if
legally implemented. Apparently there are 2 problems regarding this. The
first is that such a concept does not accord with our incorporation under
Maine law. That is a problem. The other, more important, one is that the
conspirators decided to ignore the lawful veto of a Tribune. They decided to
ignore the Senate. They decided, in fact, to ignore anything that got in the
way of appointing a dictator - like pesky laws against what they were doing.
I spoke to Marinus extensively at the height of the crisis. He acknowledged
that the proceedings were illegal, and that he would refuse if the
conspirators still insisted on naming him dictator. So the "plan to get
things moving again" was acknowledged as an illegal attempt at a coup by
even the would-be dictator. Why do you, then, continue to deny it?

>
> > Now to the point - either the newroman list is still official, or it is
> not.
> >
> > ATS2: So far as I know, NewRoman has never been official. If so, it
> > surely has not been of late...before last year.
>

If that is the case, then the owners and moderators of the list should
remove the language from the group description which implies that they speak
for Nova Roma. Because they don't, apparently.

>
> > Black and white, no shades of grey, no hemming, no hedging, no hiding
> behind
> > other languages so that the majority of the people cannot follow.
> >
> > ATS2: If you are referring to Latin, everyone here should be able to read
> > simple Latin. You, as a teacher thereof, should stand up for that. As in
> the
> > Marines, there¹s Yes, ma¹am, Yes, sir, No, ma¹am, No, sir, and No excuse,
> > Ma¹am / Sir. Medical conditions which preclude membership in the Marines
> are
> > the only exception; those xenophobic quondam Boni are not exempted.
>

I agree that every Roman *should *know Latin. But not every Roman *does* know
Latin.* *It just looks like pettiness if you switch to Latin just to slander
your opponents, when the rest of your post was in English, and you know that
those opponents speak no Latin. It's simply rude. I have no objection to the
use of Latin on the ML . . . but you must know how bad that made you look in
these particular circumstances.


> > If it IS NOT,
> > then the current owners need to conform to copyright laws
> >
> > ATS2: Copyright laws? What does that have to do with the price of tea in
> > China? How is anyone on NewRoman violating the copyright laws?
>

The "newroman" list uses the trademarked name of Nova Roma and our
corporate, trademarked logo, the SPQR flag. It thereby makes use of our
intellectual property and trademark. They claim, legally speaking, to
represent us. If they don't, that is a macronational crime. The listowner is
a criminal, he is breaking the law. Simple.

Vale et valete!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85224 From: V. Valerius Volusus Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: [Nova_roma_] Re: [newroman] Roman Virtues: Auctoritas
V. Valerius Volusus C. Tullio Valeriano omnibusque in foro S.P.D.

On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 3:48 PM, Gaius Tullius Valerianus <
gaius.tullius.valerianus@...> wrote:

> Voluse, your point about virtues being, by definition, inviolable and
>
> entirely within our own power is (of course) a Stoic doctrine. I agree,
> though not all philosophies agree with Stoicism on this point.
>
In any virtue-based eudaimonistic ethical philosophy, such as was common to
all the major schools in Rome, virtue has to be considered to be wholly
within our power, otherwise it is subject to Fate and the vicissitudes of
Fortuna, which would totally undermine moral responsibility along with many
other problems. The autonomy and voluntary nature of virtue is certainly a
Stoic doctrine, but not exclusively so. Even modern ethical schools must
maintain this concept of there being fundamental human ethical freedom and a
separation between fate (conditioning) and choice. In fact, the Stoics
themselves were often accused by the Platonists of undermining this core
principle with their strict deterministic/fatalistic physics - a charge that
the Stoics were never able to convincingly dismiss (IMHO). You will find
this idea of virtue being wholly in our power to be a feature of the
Academy, even up to Boetius (6th Century CE). As far as I am aware the
Epicureans never denied that virtue was wholly in our power either, though
they tended to put greater stress on reciprocity, social contract, the
pleasure principle and other factors rather than virtue - still virtue was
highly praised, valued and practiced in the Garden.

Even in earlier times when arete or virtus was mostly a category of physical
prowess it was assumed that a manly virtue was only that which was possessed
by a man in his nakedness. Possessing thick armor and the best bronze tipped
spear did not contribute to the virtue of a warrior, even though it was
advantageous to possess them. In battle spears can be lost, shields can be
smashed and armor torn from your body - but the fighting spirit, tenacity
and skill in combat and wrestling were the measure of the warrior; which is
one of the reasons why Greeks always exercised, wrestled and trained naked.

> But there is
> an element of *Auctoritas * that *does *fit this definition, which you may
> have missed. It's not just an authority you wield. *Respect for *rightful
> authority is a part of it. I practice *auctoritas *when I recognize the
> rightful authority of others in certain situations. To show respect to one
> who deserves it is a right act, for a Stoic.
>
Recognition and acceptance of rightful authority I tend to classify as an
aspect of the virtue of Iustia. Justice in ancient times is different to the
modern concept in many ways: the ancient concept is well represented in
Plato's Republic as being the virtue each person has to give what is due and
taking one's correct place in society; and the universe as a whole. Aspects
of Iustia would include Pietas, fulfilling one's duty towards parents: human
and divine. I certainly agree that showing due respect where respect is due
is a right action, but not because one has auctoritas or even because the
person you respect has auctoritas, but rather one has pietas (in case of
ancestors, parents, gods, etc.) or iustia (to respect the roles and
positions of others and oneself in relation to others).

> So while it is true that the Roman virtues in general, and *auctoritas *in
> particular, may not be equivalent to the *Virtus* of Seneca or *Arete *of
> Epictetus and Marcus Aurelius, it is still *a *virtue, if not *the *virtue.
>
Auctoritas, I believe, was considered a personal virtue rather than a public
virtue, though I may be mistaken on that point. There is certainly the
notion of the virtue of a society as a collective entity being an aspect of
the virtue of the genius of a people. Thus, the Roman's considered Roma to
possess many positive virtues that a Roman citizen was expected to support,
sustain and uphold. Some of these public virtues could certainly be lost if
they were not sustained by the actions of the Senate and people of Rome. In
that case, virtues like Ops (wealth and abundance of the soil) and
Abundantia (plentitude sufficient for the needs of all) certainly would not
be virtues in the Stoic sense (though they would be valued as duties that it
is virtuous to fulfill). Platonists tended to accept social virtues as
virtue per se (believing as they did in the cosmological existence of
genii). So, yes there are transpersonal virtues of societies as well as
individual moral virtues. However, I think Auctoritas is more the latter
than the former. As I said before, mileage may vary and anyone who is
content to think of Auctoritas as being the public virtue of authority and
respect for authority I wouldn't say they were wrong to do so. I just think
it runs much deeper than that.

Vale et valete!

VVV


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85225 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: [Nova_roma_] Re: [newroman] Roman Virtues: Auctoritas
L. Livia Plauta C. Mariae Caecae sal.

What Agricola meant with his post was that it is not very useful to discuss
dictionary definitions of words translated from English instead of
discussing Roman ethics based on the sources available.

The "list of roman virtues" on the NR Wiki is a list that someone made by
looking up in a vocabulary all the words for virtues.

Here people are talking about "auctoritas", but what they really mean is
"authority". In this case there is very little difference between the
meaning of the English word and that of its Latin equivalent, so it makes no
sense to discuss auctoritas as if it was a different concept from authority.

There are other words where this is not the case: for example "virtus",
which doesn't mean "virtue", but something more akin to "courage", but a
discussion of this kind has a meaning only in the context of learning Latin.

If someone wants to study the system of Roman ethics, there are some
approaches which are more useful than vocabulary lists: for example I found
very useful the historical anecdotes (from Latin sources) included in
Piscinus' calendar posts, which show you what kind of behaviours the
ancients appreciated.

Other sources are the philosophical works of the time: Agricola quoted "On
Duties" by Cicero, but I'm sure there are other sources that I don't know,
because i was never that much interested in philosophy. Marcus Aurelius'
"Meditations" is the olny work I find readable, but it's too late to be a
reliable source about republican-era ethics.

Optime vale,
Livia


> C. Maria Caeca omnibus in foro S. P. D.
>
> I had intended to present my admittedly unscholarly, and probably
> unhistorical, thoughts on this subject yesterday, but I was doing battle
> with my computer and 2 complicated pieces of software. I won.
>
> First, I think an informal discussion of the Roman virtues is a very
> constructive thing, because we were not exposed to them from childhood;
> because it is part of our task as Novi Romani (as I see it) to understand
> what was, understand what is, and bring concepts different from our own
> era
> into our time frame in meaningful ways, and so we will have to consider
> some
> things, and primarily some attitudes, that the ancients did not; because
> each of us brings to any discussion our own mindsets and our own
> backgrounds; and finally, (not least) because such productive discussions
> bring us, as an international community, closer together.
>
> Like Valerianus Augur, I believe that auctoritas is earned. People who
> have
> been observed to consistently (note I did not say constantly) behave in a
> manner that can receive respect and trust from their community become,
> gradually, those to whom the community goes for advice in their areas, and
> those whose actions and words tend to be accepted and valued. This kind
> of
> auctoritas does *not* depend either on position or personal wealth. I
> have
> known people who had tremendous auctoritas (although they never called it
> that) who had very little material wealth. What they had was a deep sense
> of what was right, and the quiet confidence not just to say what is right,
> but to do what is right, in any given situation. Sometimes these people
> exercised their auctoritas in words and actions, but a single word, or
> even
> a quelling look, could and did prevent unfortunate things from happening.
>
> Usually, this kind of let me call it natural auctoritas comes with
> experience, demonstration of ability, knowledge, or moral compass over a
> long time, and these things require more than a few years. I do not say
> that young people cannot possess this kind of auctoritas, but I have found
> it to be very rare.
>
> Where Valerianus and I disagree, a bit, is the idea that auctoritas cannot
> be bestowed or given. I think that, in a sense, the Roman people did so
> when they elected their government. Each office had its duties and
> responsibilities, and in electing this or that candidate, the people of
> Rome
> gave that candidate a mandate, saying, essentially, that the people
> trusted
> that candidate to perform those duties as they should be performed. We do
> the same thing, and we call it a political mandate or imperative. The
> Consuls had their auctoritas to do specific things, and had the full
> expectation of being obeyed, as did the other officials. the people held
> the power, however, because while a sitting magistrate could not be
> prosecuted, he could be (and often was) as soon as he left office. We
> impeach, it is true, but that is, thankfully, very rarely done. So the
> trust
> that magistrates will exercise their auctoritas, both personal and
> mandated
> is strongly implied.
>
> Valete bene!
> C. Maria Caeca
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85226 From: C.Maria Caeca Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Auctoritas and ...
C. Maria Caeca omnibus in foro S. P. D.

First, I think the discussion on Auctoritas and other Roman virtues is
exhilarating! Sometimes, in reading other people's comments, I have an "Oh!
didn't consider that" reaction, and sometimes an "ah, yes, I knew that, even
if I didn't say it" and sometimes a "hmmm, need to think about this idea"
reaction. this is what I love to see here, and I hope this discussion keeps
going, and grows.

Next, if I seem overly inclined to make it clear that what I say is simply
my own opinion, that is due to the fact that internet communication can be
difficult, sometimes. If we were all sitting around a table, say, you would
*see* my reactions, and you would see that I would be listening eagerly and
attentively to other viewpoints. I do, but you can't see that, so yes,
perhaps I am more diffident than necessary. Civility is important to me,
both in the giving and the receiving, and I consider it my responsibility to
do all I can to ensure that the people with whom I communicate know that I
do so with respect.

Valete bene!
C. Maria Caeca
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85227 From: Robert Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] No coup? O Rly?
Ave!

When the senate session was vetoed! And Caeso fabius, piscinus, and the tribunes still pushed their attempt it became illegal....hence a coup attempt!

Vale

Sulla

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 19, 2011, at 2:30 AM, "Cn. Cornelius Lentulus" <cn_corn_lent@...> wrote:

> Lentulus omnibus sal.
>
> I don't want to waste my time on this discussion since I have explained my point of view several times in this and other mailing lists already. But as one of the many citizens who applauded the idea of appointing Marinus as dictator, I feel it's my moral obligation to comment and to repeat again that what happened last year it was NOT a "coup", and it is UTTERLY RIDICULOUS, PRETENTIOUS, AND POMPOUS to call it a "coup". But, of course, all of us must have the right to use the word which fits his taste.
>
> I, Scholastica, Livia - and I know that many other citizens - don't think that an appointment of a constitutional dictator can be labeled as a "coup", especially when it is done in a very serious crisis: exactly in a situation for what it is invented by our Constitution as a means of solution.
>
> I don't exactly know what Scholastica or Livia exactly think, but for me what happened last year was an attempt to save Nova Roma from the ongoing chaos by appointing a dictator, a very legal, constitutional and Roman thing, and it was initially supported by all senators except 1-2, later still by the overwhelming majority. Almost everyone wanted the dictator.
>
> Was this dictator election a pre-organized political action? OF COURSE it was, it had to be, as all well-thought-out political actions are pre-organized and conscious actions. I have presonally and repeatedly advocated for appointing a dictator in this very same mailing list since the beginning of the decline of NR. Many citizens trusted Marinus and I still think that he was an example of leadership, and he as a senior consular and esteemed senator could have introduced the necessary reforms into NR. For our detriment, and ever growing stagnation, he was not appointed as dictator and NR is today where it is. Only if we had Marinus as dictator!... I think we were light years ahead today as compared to this dead frozen state in which NR stagnates without leadership...
>
> So, what some very colorfully call a "coup d'etate", is viewed by many others as a heroic attempt to save Nova Roma from the
> internal warrings, stagnation and decline, using the constitutional option appointing a person trusted by most people as dictator.
>
> Unfortunately, the organizers of this dictator election committed an error - and this is why I must accept that the appointment was indeed not regular, thus not completely lawful.
>
> Why?
>
> The dictator election attempt was executed using legally questionable means, i.e. circumventing Albucius' consular veto by Consul Quintilianus' convening the senate jointly with the tribunes, which was (and still is) a matter of debate whether it is legal or illegal, but the debate was officially concluded by the rest of tribunes as illegal - though there are numerous theoretical objections. I, as a law respecting citizen, accepted the veto of the tribunes, and I still don't question the outcome: the dictator was vetoed. Cn. Marinus Censorius dictator-elect accepted it too. No dictator entered office.
>
> That the dictator election failed it was a tragedy, because I firmly
> beleive that Marinus as dictator could have stoped the stagnation of
> Nova Roma, could have solved our many technical and organizational
> problems including our IT problems immediately. Since then very few
> improvements was made on NR, and today it seems clearer than ever that
> the need for the dictator was fully justified.
>
> As for the featuring of a dictatorial appointment as a "coup d'etat", it is exaggerating, idiotic and pompous. What was, however, and still is a proper question regarding those events it is whether the consul can convene a senate session jointly by the tribunes or not. As it came out Nova Roma did not accept that legal approach, and thus the dictator was not deemed elected properly.
>
> So, accept that facts:
>
> 1) the dictator is a normal and legal solution in NR's constitution for handling crises;
> 2) many Nova Romans and senators wanted that dictator to handle the crisis of last year;
> 3) the intention and purpose with the dictator was legal since the institution itself is a legal NR institution;
> 4) the authority which was appointing it was legal since it's the prerogative of the senate, and it was the senate which was electing Marinus;
> 5) HOWEVER, the way of convening the senate (a consul JOINTLY with the tribunes) was dubious, and some accepted it as a legal way of convening the senate, since our laws did not prohibit it, some thought that it was not provided by our laws as an option because our laws did not explicitely allow it.
> 6) This way the whole business of appointing the dictator came to a legalistic dispute where the other consul and the other tribunes vetoed it, and finally Marinus himself declined the position.
>
> End of the story.
>
> Some are now convinced that Marinus as a dictator would have done tyrannic actions. Many others are convinced that Marinus would have been a true healer of our illnesses and a fair and just leader. Since Marinus has never been installed as dictator all what goes beyond the facts are mere fantasy. I personally am most convinced that Marinus would have never wanted confrontation with the law, consequently he as dictator would have worked for the benefit of all of NR.
>
> However, it is not the point of my message. The point of my message is the following:
>
> We can say that the dictator election was halted and the details of the procedure of convoking the session deemed irregular; BUT no one with sane judgement can call it a "coup d'etat" since the dictator, appointed by the senate, is a LEGAL, CONSTITUTIONAL and lawful institution in the NR Constitution. It can not be called a "coup" what is constitutional. All legal criteria were satisfied, except the bit with the joint consular-trinunicial convoking of the senate session, which is a matter of law interpretation, since it is not explicitely forbidden. Moreover, when it was vetoed, the whole procedure was terminated, and the dictator was not installed: consequently no law was violated.
>
> The conclusion is this: neither Scholastica, nor Livia, nor I are denying that SOMETHING happaned last year. And I AM confirming that what happened then it was legally problematic. But what I am saying with Scholatica and with others, it is that an office which is constitutional can not be called a "coup".
>
> I will not discuss this topic again: in the archieves you will find my full arguing among the old posts. I know that if you carefully think on the things what I have written, you will see that there is no justification to call last year events as a "coup". So there can not be a justified difference of opinion, unless one is driven purely emotionally against the whole issue. Where our opinions can, however, differ in the greatest extent it is whether the intention with the dictator was good or bad. But it is to decide for each citizen individually, since the dictatorship, as it came out, never started on.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85228 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: No coup? O Rly?
L. Livia Plauta omnibus sal.

I thank my friend Lentulus for sparing me the work to write on this topic,
by giving a detailed account of what happened and of our opinions on the
matter.

I need to rewrite the following statement of his into correct English,
though, because it might be misunderstood in its current form.
Lentulus: "Only if we had Marinus as dictator!... I think we were light
years ahead today as compared to this dead frozen state in which NR
stagnates without leadership... "

Meaning: "If only we had Marinus as a dictator! ... I think we would be
light years ahead today compared to this dead frozen state in which NR
stagnates without leadership ..."

The only point where my opinion differs from Lentulus' is that I think Nova
Roma can no longer be "saved" now, in the sense that as an organization it
is no longer suitable to support the Religio Romana (while it might still be
a good place for reenactors who are not interested in Roman religon to
meet).

I also thank senator Sulla for forwarding all those posts from the Senate
list.

There used to be a "senate seal" in place, that is, senators were not
allowed to forward to the Main List posts form the Senate, or to post about
the discussions going on there.

So for me it's a surprise, for example, to see the post by Perusianus, who
usually doesn't post at all in the NR lists. Of course his assessment of the
situation at the time was correct: most of the Italians had left NR and were
happy with their Pomerium organization.

Since then even the last attempt by me and Vindex to keep some people
interested in NR has failed.

Quintilianus' assessment was also correct:
"Shrinking membership, less and less people who pay taxes and vote.
We are losing great parts of our Spanish, Italian and Latin American
citizens. No activity in Britannia and very little in Gallia. Those
who are in Sarmatia and other Eastern European countries are doing a
splendid job that gives us hope, but they might also also soon lose
hope, because of how we act and not act."

Since then there was a mass secession of Sarmatian citizens, who keep
pursuing their goal of building a temple to Jupiter, but now outside Nova
Roma.

Optime valete,
Livia

> Lentulus omnibus sal.
>
> I don't want to waste my time on this discussion since I have explained my
> point of view several times in this and other mailing lists already. But
> as one of the many citizens who applauded the idea of appointing Marinus
> as dictator, I feel it's my moral obligation to comment and to repeat
> again that what happened last year it was NOT a "coup", and it is UTTERLY
> RIDICULOUS, PRETENTIOUS, AND POMPOUS to call it a "coup". But, of course,
> all of us must have the right to use the word which fits his taste.
>
> I, Scholastica, Livia - and I know that many other citizens - don't think
> that an appointment of a constitutional dictator can be labeled as a
> "coup", especially when it is done in a very serious crisis: exactly in a
> situation for what it is invented by our Constitution as a means of
> solution.
>
> I don't exactly know what Scholastica or Livia exactly think, but for me
> what happened last year was an attempt to save Nova Roma from the ongoing
> chaos by appointing a dictator, a very legal, constitutional and Roman
> thing, and it was initially supported by all senators except 1-2, later
> still by the overwhelming majority. Almost everyone wanted the dictator.
>
> Was this dictator election a pre-organized political action? OF COURSE it
> was, it had to be, as all well-thought-out political actions are
> pre-organized and conscious actions. I have presonally and repeatedly
> advocated for appointing a dictator in this very same mailing list since
> the beginning of the decline of NR. Many citizens trusted Marinus and I
> still think that he was an example of leadership, and he as a senior
> consular and esteemed senator could have introduced the necessary reforms
> into NR. For our detriment, and ever growing stagnation, he was not
> appointed as dictator and NR is today where it is. Only if we had Marinus
> as dictator!... I think we were light years ahead today as compared to
> this dead frozen state in which NR stagnates without leadership...
>
> So, what some very colorfully call a "coup d'etate", is viewed by many
> others as a heroic attempt to save Nova Roma from the
> internal warrings, stagnation and decline, using the constitutional option
> appointing a person trusted by most people as dictator.
>
> Unfortunately, the organizers of this dictator election committed an
> error - and this is why I must accept that the appointment was indeed not
> regular, thus not completely lawful.
>
> Why?
>
> The dictator election attempt was executed using legally questionable
> means, i.e. circumventing Albucius' consular veto by Consul Quintilianus'
> convening the senate jointly with the tribunes, which was (and still is) a
> matter of debate whether it is legal or illegal, but the debate was
> officially concluded by the rest of tribunes as illegal - though there are
> numerous theoretical objections. I, as a law respecting citizen, accepted
> the veto of the tribunes, and I still don't question the outcome: the
> dictator was vetoed. Cn. Marinus Censorius dictator-elect accepted it too.
> No dictator entered office.
>
> That the dictator election failed it was a tragedy, because I firmly
> beleive that Marinus as dictator could have stoped the stagnation of
> Nova Roma, could have solved our many technical and organizational
> problems including our IT problems immediately. Since then very few
> improvements was made on NR, and today it seems clearer than ever that
> the need for the dictator was fully justified.
>
> As for the featuring of a dictatorial appointment as a "coup d'etat", it
> is exaggerating, idiotic and pompous. What was, however, and still is a
> proper question regarding those events it is whether the consul can
> convene a senate session jointly by the tribunes or not. As it came out
> Nova Roma did not accept that legal approach, and thus the dictator was
> not deemed elected properly.
>
> So, accept that facts:
>
> 1) the dictator is a normal and legal solution in NR's constitution for
> handling crises;
> 2) many Nova Romans and senators wanted that dictator to handle the crisis
> of last year;
> 3) the intention and purpose with the dictator was legal since the
> institution itself is a legal NR institution;
> 4) the authority which was appointing it was legal since it's the
> prerogative of the senate, and it was the senate which was electing
> Marinus;
> 5) HOWEVER, the way of convening the senate (a consul JOINTLY with the
> tribunes) was dubious, and some accepted it as a legal way of convening
> the senate, since our laws did not prohibit it, some thought that it was
> not provided by our laws as an option because our laws did not explicitely
> allow it.
> 6) This way the whole business of appointing the dictator came to a
> legalistic dispute where the other consul and the other tribunes vetoed
> it, and finally Marinus himself declined the position.
>
> End of the story.
>
> Some are now convinced that Marinus as a dictator would have done tyrannic
> actions. Many others are convinced that Marinus would have been a true
> healer of our illnesses and a fair and just leader. Since Marinus has
> never been installed as dictator all what goes beyond the facts are mere
> fantasy. I personally am most convinced that Marinus would have never
> wanted confrontation with the law, consequently he as dictator would have
> worked for the benefit of all of NR.
>
> However, it is not the point of my message. The point of my message is the
> following:
>
> We can say that the dictator election was halted and the details of the
> procedure of convoking the session deemed irregular; BUT no one with sane
> judgement can call it a "coup d'etat" since the dictator, appointed by the
> senate, is a LEGAL, CONSTITUTIONAL and lawful institution in the NR
> Constitution. It can not be called a "coup" what is constitutional. All
> legal criteria were satisfied, except the bit with the joint
> consular-trinunicial convoking of the senate session, which is a matter of
> law interpretation, since it is not explicitely forbidden. Moreover, when
> it was vetoed, the whole procedure was terminated, and the dictator was
> not installed: consequently no law was violated.
>
> The conclusion is this: neither Scholastica, nor Livia, nor I are denying
> that SOMETHING happaned last year. And I AM confirming that what happened
> then it was legally problematic. But what I am saying with Scholatica and
> with others, it is that an office which is constitutional can not be
> called a "coup".
>
>
> I will not discuss this topic again: in the archieves you will find my
> full arguing among the old posts. I know that if you carefully think on
> the things what I have written, you will see that there is no
> justification to call last year events as a "coup". So there can not be a
> justified difference of opinion, unless one is driven purely emotionally
> against the whole issue. Where our opinions can, however, differ in the
> greatest extent it is whether the intention with the dictator was good or
> bad. But it is to decide for each citizen individually, since the
> dictatorship, as it came out, never started on.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85229 From: Robert Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: No coup? O Rly?
Ave!

Again my response is brief. Once there is an intercessio, as alby posted. It's done and any attempt to continue to press on by getting marinus appointed as dictator was a coup attempt. What stopped marinus from accepting the position was that Caesar and I warned him.... Do it and touch nova roma's money and he would be held personally accountable and we would sue him. At that point he decided to seek the advice of an attorney and he was told the office of dictator is incompatible with Maine law! What that means is that he would be held personally liable!

Again attempted coup attempt failed!

Had the coup plotters consulted an attorney first before they planned this attempt years ago, and this was planned for over a year...they could have helped nr by working with us instead of continually escalating each crisis to a new tipping point!

Vale

Sulla

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 19, 2011, at 6:36 AM, "L. Livia Plauta" <livia.plauta@...> wrote:

> L. Livia Plauta omnibus sal.
>
> I thank my friend Lentulus for sparing me the work to write on this topic,
> by giving a detailed account of what happened and of our opinions on the
> matter.
>
> I need to rewrite the following statement of his into correct English,
> though, because it might be misunderstood in its current form.
> Lentulus: "Only if we had Marinus as dictator!... I think we were light
> years ahead today as compared to this dead frozen state in which NR
> stagnates without leadership... "
>
> Meaning: "If only we had Marinus as a dictator! ... I think we would be
> light years ahead today compared to this dead frozen state in which NR
> stagnates without leadership ..."
>
> The only point where my opinion differs from Lentulus' is that I think Nova
> Roma can no longer be "saved" now, in the sense that as an organization it
> is no longer suitable to support the Religio Romana (while it might still be
> a good place for reenactors who are not interested in Roman religon to
> meet).
>
> I also thank senator Sulla for forwarding all those posts from the Senate
> list.
>
> There used to be a "senate seal" in place, that is, senators were not
> allowed to forward to the Main List posts form the Senate, or to post about
> the discussions going on there.
>
> So for me it's a surprise, for example, to see the post by Perusianus, who
> usually doesn't post at all in the NR lists. Of course his assessment of the
> situation at the time was correct: most of the Italians had left NR and were
> happy with their Pomerium organization.
>
> Since then even the last attempt by me and Vindex to keep some people
> interested in NR has failed.
>
> Quintilianus' assessment was also correct:
> "Shrinking membership, less and less people who pay taxes and vote.
> We are losing great parts of our Spanish, Italian and Latin American
> citizens. No activity in Britannia and very little in Gallia. Those
> who are in Sarmatia and other Eastern European countries are doing a
> splendid job that gives us hope, but they might also also soon lose
> hope, because of how we act and not act."
>
> Since then there was a mass secession of Sarmatian citizens, who keep
> pursuing their goal of building a temple to Jupiter, but now outside Nova
> Roma.
>
> Optime valete,
> Livia
>
> > Lentulus omnibus sal.
> >
> > I don't want to waste my time on this discussion since I have explained my
> > point of view several times in this and other mailing lists already. But
> > as one of the many citizens who applauded the idea of appointing Marinus
> > as dictator, I feel it's my moral obligation to comment and to repeat
> > again that what happened last year it was NOT a "coup", and it is UTTERLY
> > RIDICULOUS, PRETENTIOUS, AND POMPOUS to call it a "coup". But, of course,
> > all of us must have the right to use the word which fits his taste.
> >
> > I, Scholastica, Livia - and I know that many other citizens - don't think
> > that an appointment of a constitutional dictator can be labeled as a
> > "coup", especially when it is done in a very serious crisis: exactly in a
> > situation for what it is invented by our Constitution as a means of
> > solution.
> >
> > I don't exactly know what Scholastica or Livia exactly think, but for me
> > what happened last year was an attempt to save Nova Roma from the ongoing
> > chaos by appointing a dictator, a very legal, constitutional and Roman
> > thing, and it was initially supported by all senators except 1-2, later
> > still by the overwhelming majority. Almost everyone wanted the dictator.
> >
> > Was this dictator election a pre-organized political action? OF COURSE it
> > was, it had to be, as all well-thought-out political actions are
> > pre-organized and conscious actions. I have presonally and repeatedly
> > advocated for appointing a dictator in this very same mailing list since
> > the beginning of the decline of NR. Many citizens trusted Marinus and I
> > still think that he was an example of leadership, and he as a senior
> > consular and esteemed senator could have introduced the necessary reforms
> > into NR. For our detriment, and ever growing stagnation, he was not
> > appointed as dictator and NR is today where it is. Only if we had Marinus
> > as dictator!... I think we were light years ahead today as compared to
> > this dead frozen state in which NR stagnates without leadership...
> >
> > So, what some very colorfully call a "coup d'etate", is viewed by many
> > others as a heroic attempt to save Nova Roma from the
> > internal warrings, stagnation and decline, using the constitutional option
> > appointing a person trusted by most people as dictator.
> >
> > Unfortunately, the organizers of this dictator election committed an
> > error - and this is why I must accept that the appointment was indeed not
> > regular, thus not completely lawful.
> >
> > Why?
> >
> > The dictator election attempt was executed using legally questionable
> > means, i.e. circumventing Albucius' consular veto by Consul Quintilianus'
> > convening the senate jointly with the tribunes, which was (and still is) a
> > matter of debate whether it is legal or illegal, but the debate was
> > officially concluded by the rest of tribunes as illegal - though there are
> > numerous theoretical objections. I, as a law respecting citizen, accepted
> > the veto of the tribunes, and I still don't question the outcome: the
> > dictator was vetoed. Cn. Marinus Censorius dictator-elect accepted it too.
> > No dictator entered office.
> >
> > That the dictator election failed it was a tragedy, because I firmly
> > beleive that Marinus as dictator could have stoped the stagnation of
> > Nova Roma, could have solved our many technical and organizational
> > problems including our IT problems immediately. Since then very few
> > improvements was made on NR, and today it seems clearer than ever that
> > the need for the dictator was fully justified.
> >
> > As for the featuring of a dictatorial appointment as a "coup d'etat", it
> > is exaggerating, idiotic and pompous. What was, however, and still is a
> > proper question regarding those events it is whether the consul can
> > convene a senate session jointly by the tribunes or not. As it came out
> > Nova Roma did not accept that legal approach, and thus the dictator was
> > not deemed elected properly.
> >
> > So, accept that facts:
> >
> > 1) the dictator is a normal and legal solution in NR's constitution for
> > handling crises;
> > 2) many Nova Romans and senators wanted that dictator to handle the crisis
> > of last year;
> > 3) the intention and purpose with the dictator was legal since the
> > institution itself is a legal NR institution;
> > 4) the authority which was appointing it was legal since it's the
> > prerogative of the senate, and it was the senate which was electing
> > Marinus;
> > 5) HOWEVER, the way of convening the senate (a consul JOINTLY with the
> > tribunes) was dubious, and some accepted it as a legal way of convening
> > the senate, since our laws did not prohibit it, some thought that it was
> > not provided by our laws as an option because our laws did not explicitely
> > allow it.
> > 6) This way the whole business of appointing the dictator came to a
> > legalistic dispute where the other consul and the other tribunes vetoed
> > it, and finally Marinus himself declined the position.
> >
> > End of the story.
> >
> > Some are now convinced that Marinus as a dictator would have done tyrannic
> > actions. Many others are convinced that Marinus would have been a true
> > healer of our illnesses and a fair and just leader. Since Marinus has
> > never been installed as dictator all what goes beyond the facts are mere
> > fantasy. I personally am most convinced that Marinus would have never
> > wanted confrontation with the law, consequently he as dictator would have
> > worked for the benefit of all of NR.
> >
> > However, it is not the point of my message. The point of my message is the
> > following:
> >
> > We can say that the dictator election was halted and the details of the
> > procedure of convoking the session deemed irregular; BUT no one with sane
> > judgement can call it a "coup d'etat" since the dictator, appointed by the
> > senate, is a LEGAL, CONSTITUTIONAL and lawful institution in the NR
> > Constitution. It can not be called a "coup" what is constitutional. All
> > legal criteria were satisfied, except the bit with the joint
> > consular-trinunicial convoking of the senate session, which is a matter of
> > law interpretation, since it is not explicitely forbidden. Moreover, when
> > it was vetoed, the whole procedure was terminated, and the dictator was
> > not installed: consequently no law was violated.
> >
> > The conclusion is this: neither Scholastica, nor Livia, nor I are denying
> > that SOMETHING happaned last year. And I AM confirming that what happened
> > then it was legally problematic. But what I am saying with Scholatica and
> > with others, it is that an office which is constitutional can not be
> > called a "coup".
> >
> >
> > I will not discuss this topic again: in the archieves you will find my
> > full arguing among the old posts. I know that if you carefully think on
> > the things what I have written, you will see that there is no
> > justification to call last year events as a "coup". So there can not be a
> > justified difference of opinion, unless one is driven purely emotionally
> > against the whole issue. Where our opinions can, however, differ in the
> > greatest extent it is whether the intention with the dictator was good or
> > bad. But it is to decide for each citizen individually, since the
> > dictatorship, as it came out, never started on.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85230 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: No coup? O Rly?
Salve Sulla,
it was impossible to work with you, because the strategy of you and your
friends was to veto anything the magistrates tried in order to prevent them
from getting any problem solved and to prepare the ground for your own
ascent to power.
That's why your party prevented the agreement to fix Nova Roma's IT system
then and later had to pay a good sum just to get a working voting system,
which fixes about 10% of what the NR IT system used to do. (By the way, I'm
really curious to see the new system implemented).

But that's just one example: actually most of the crises were escalated by
you and your friends. It's not by chance that the decline started when you
were reinstated in the Senate.

But now you have the power, so use it! let's see if your party can stop the
decline of NR.
You have a chance to prove me, Lentulus and Scholastica wrong by actually
contributing to the seamless working of NR. You don't even have to overcome
the same obstacles that we did, because all the opposition has left NR, and
those who stayed have no position of power.
You shouldn't have to worry about the way people judge the events of last
year. After all, they are quite irrelevant for the present.

Vale,
Livia

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert" <robert.woolwine@...>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] No coup? O Rly?


Ave!

Again my response is brief. Once there is an intercessio, as alby posted.
It's done and any attempt to continue to press on by getting marinus
appointed as dictator was a coup attempt. What stopped marinus from
accepting the position was that Caesar and I warned him.... Do it and touch
nova roma's money and he would be held personally accountable and we would
sue him. At that point he decided to seek the advice of an attorney and he
was told the office of dictator is incompatible with Maine law! What that
means is that he would be held personally liable!

Again attempted coup attempt failed!

Had the coup plotters consulted an attorney first before they planned this
attempt years ago, and this was planned for over a year...they could have
helped nr by working with us instead of continually escalating each crisis
to a new tipping point!

Vale

Sulla

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 19, 2011, at 6:36 AM, "L. Livia Plauta" <livia.plauta@...>
wrote:

> L. Livia Plauta omnibus sal.
>
> I thank my friend Lentulus for sparing me the work to write on this topic,
> by giving a detailed account of what happened and of our opinions on the
> matter.
>
> I need to rewrite the following statement of his into correct English,
> though, because it might be misunderstood in its current form.
> Lentulus: "Only if we had Marinus as dictator!... I think we were light
> years ahead today as compared to this dead frozen state in which NR
> stagnates without leadership... "
>
> Meaning: "If only we had Marinus as a dictator! ... I think we would be
> light years ahead today compared to this dead frozen state in which NR
> stagnates without leadership ..."
>
> The only point where my opinion differs from Lentulus' is that I think
> Nova
> Roma can no longer be "saved" now, in the sense that as an organization it
> is no longer suitable to support the Religio Romana (while it might still
> be
> a good place for reenactors who are not interested in Roman religon to
> meet).
>
> I also thank senator Sulla for forwarding all those posts from the Senate
> list.
>
> There used to be a "senate seal" in place, that is, senators were not
> allowed to forward to the Main List posts form the Senate, or to post
> about
> the discussions going on there.
>
> So for me it's a surprise, for example, to see the post by Perusianus, who
> usually doesn't post at all in the NR lists. Of course his assessment of
> the
> situation at the time was correct: most of the Italians had left NR and
> were
> happy with their Pomerium organization.
>
> Since then even the last attempt by me and Vindex to keep some people
> interested in NR has failed.
>
> Quintilianus' assessment was also correct:
> "Shrinking membership, less and less people who pay taxes and vote.
> We are losing great parts of our Spanish, Italian and Latin American
> citizens. No activity in Britannia and very little in Gallia. Those
> who are in Sarmatia and other Eastern European countries are doing a
> splendid job that gives us hope, but they might also also soon lose
> hope, because of how we act and not act."
>
> Since then there was a mass secession of Sarmatian citizens, who keep
> pursuing their goal of building a temple to Jupiter, but now outside Nova
> Roma.
>
> Optime valete,
> Livia
>
> > Lentulus omnibus sal.
> >
> > I don't want to waste my time on this discussion since I have explained
> > my
> > point of view several times in this and other mailing lists already. But
> > as one of the many citizens who applauded the idea of appointing Marinus
> > as dictator, I feel it's my moral obligation to comment and to repeat
> > again that what happened last year it was NOT a "coup", and it is
> > UTTERLY
> > RIDICULOUS, PRETENTIOUS, AND POMPOUS to call it a "coup". But, of
> > course,
> > all of us must have the right to use the word which fits his taste.
> >
> > I, Scholastica, Livia - and I know that many other citizens - don't
> > think
> > that an appointment of a constitutional dictator can be labeled as a
> > "coup", especially when it is done in a very serious crisis: exactly in
> > a
> > situation for what it is invented by our Constitution as a means of
> > solution.
> >
> > I don't exactly know what Scholastica or Livia exactly think, but for me
> > what happened last year was an attempt to save Nova Roma from the
> > ongoing
> > chaos by appointing a dictator, a very legal, constitutional and Roman
> > thing, and it was initially supported by all senators except 1-2, later
> > still by the overwhelming majority. Almost everyone wanted the dictator.
> >
> > Was this dictator election a pre-organized political action? OF COURSE
> > it
> > was, it had to be, as all well-thought-out political actions are
> > pre-organized and conscious actions. I have presonally and repeatedly
> > advocated for appointing a dictator in this very same mailing list since
> > the beginning of the decline of NR. Many citizens trusted Marinus and I
> > still think that he was an example of leadership, and he as a senior
> > consular and esteemed senator could have introduced the necessary
> > reforms
> > into NR. For our detriment, and ever growing stagnation, he was not
> > appointed as dictator and NR is today where it is. Only if we had
> > Marinus
> > as dictator!... I think we were light years ahead today as compared to
> > this dead frozen state in which NR stagnates without leadership...
> >
> > So, what some very colorfully call a "coup d'etate", is viewed by many
> > others as a heroic attempt to save Nova Roma from the
> > internal warrings, stagnation and decline, using the constitutional
> > option
> > appointing a person trusted by most people as dictator.
> >
> > Unfortunately, the organizers of this dictator election committed an
> > error - and this is why I must accept that the appointment was indeed
> > not
> > regular, thus not completely lawful.
> >
> > Why?
> >
> > The dictator election attempt was executed using legally questionable
> > means, i.e. circumventing Albucius' consular veto by Consul
> > Quintilianus'
> > convening the senate jointly with the tribunes, which was (and still is)
> > a
> > matter of debate whether it is legal or illegal, but the debate was
> > officially concluded by the rest of tribunes as illegal - though there
> > are
> > numerous theoretical objections. I, as a law respecting citizen,
> > accepted
> > the veto of the tribunes, and I still don't question the outcome: the
> > dictator was vetoed. Cn. Marinus Censorius dictator-elect accepted it
> > too.
> > No dictator entered office.
> >
> > That the dictator election failed it was a tragedy, because I firmly
> > beleive that Marinus as dictator could have stoped the stagnation of
> > Nova Roma, could have solved our many technical and organizational
> > problems including our IT problems immediately. Since then very few
> > improvements was made on NR, and today it seems clearer than ever that
> > the need for the dictator was fully justified.
> >
> > As for the featuring of a dictatorial appointment as a "coup d'etat", it
> > is exaggerating, idiotic and pompous. What was, however, and still is a
> > proper question regarding those events it is whether the consul can
> > convene a senate session jointly by the tribunes or not. As it came out
> > Nova Roma did not accept that legal approach, and thus the dictator was
> > not deemed elected properly.
> >
> > So, accept that facts:
> >
> > 1) the dictator is a normal and legal solution in NR's constitution for
> > handling crises;
> > 2) many Nova Romans and senators wanted that dictator to handle the
> > crisis
> > of last year;
> > 3) the intention and purpose with the dictator was legal since the
> > institution itself is a legal NR institution;
> > 4) the authority which was appointing it was legal since it's the
> > prerogative of the senate, and it was the senate which was electing
> > Marinus;
> > 5) HOWEVER, the way of convening the senate (a consul JOINTLY with the
> > tribunes) was dubious, and some accepted it as a legal way of convening
> > the senate, since our laws did not prohibit it, some thought that it was
> > not provided by our laws as an option because our laws did not
> > explicitely
> > allow it.
> > 6) This way the whole business of appointing the dictator came to a
> > legalistic dispute where the other consul and the other tribunes vetoed
> > it, and finally Marinus himself declined the position.
> >
> > End of the story.
> >
> > Some are now convinced that Marinus as a dictator would have done
> > tyrannic
> > actions. Many others are convinced that Marinus would have been a true
> > healer of our illnesses and a fair and just leader. Since Marinus has
> > never been installed as dictator all what goes beyond the facts are mere
> > fantasy. I personally am most convinced that Marinus would have never
> > wanted confrontation with the law, consequently he as dictator would
> > have
> > worked for the benefit of all of NR.
> >
> > However, it is not the point of my message. The point of my message is
> > the
> > following:
> >
> > We can say that the dictator election was halted and the details of the
> > procedure of convoking the session deemed irregular; BUT no one with
> > sane
> > judgement can call it a "coup d'etat" since the dictator, appointed by
> > the
> > senate, is a LEGAL, CONSTITUTIONAL and lawful institution in the NR
> > Constitution. It can not be called a "coup" what is constitutional. All
> > legal criteria were satisfied, except the bit with the joint
> > consular-trinunicial convoking of the senate session, which is a matter
> > of
> > law interpretation, since it is not explicitely forbidden. Moreover,
> > when
> > it was vetoed, the whole procedure was terminated, and the dictator was
> > not installed: consequently no law was violated.
> >
> > The conclusion is this: neither Scholastica, nor Livia, nor I are
> > denying
> > that SOMETHING happaned last year. And I AM confirming that what
> > happened
> > then it was legally problematic. But what I am saying with Scholatica
> > and
> > with others, it is that an office which is constitutional can not be
> > called a "coup".
> >
> >
> > I will not discuss this topic again: in the archieves you will find my
> > full arguing among the old posts. I know that if you carefully think on
> > the things what I have written, you will see that there is no
> > justification to call last year events as a "coup". So there can not be
> > a
> > justified difference of opinion, unless one is driven purely emotionally
> > against the whole issue. Where our opinions can, however, differ in the
> > greatest extent it is whether the intention with the dictator was good
> > or
> > bad. But it is to decide for each citizen individually, since the
> > dictatorship, as it came out, never started on.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85231 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: Law Admin "newroman" list issue
Iulia Lentulo pontifici Tullio auguri Tulliae senatrici Corneli senatori Liviae Quiritibusque S.P.D.

Holding a street trial in absentia, lacks dignitas. There is nothing offered in the past few days as evidence that we have not seen before or has not occurred before, and in some cases several times, in Nova Roma's history – and earning similar consternation. Such charges may not pass the pretrial review or tests via the praetors and the censors, in addition further discussion while conducting a street trial and levying judgments, particularly by a person in authority, or perceived authority, will negate any chance for a fair trial and by doing so further mars any chance that charges will pass the pre-trial tests for actual offenses or the ability to have a fair trial. To me the point is moot and I will not be engaging in such a discussion in a conscious effort to protect the rights of all sides and the integrity of the law process – because right now it has become about how bad existing members who support those accused in this street trial can be made to appear and how noble others wish to be perceived and just may cause more division. For example, I am not going to discuss this and remain non-committal because if called as a witness I want my statement to mean something and there are others who may be integral to any such proceedings who will protect the potential value of their knowledge as well. Best I can say is the obvious; depends upon the perception of those who oppose and those who support and, in each case the "evidence" offered on the street is only part of the story. Just a note but after the third repost of what happened last night two citizens left the list. The Senate seal is not a law, but it is based on trust that those Senators take their virtues and Nova Roma seriously enough that they honor the Senate Seal of Nova Roma and not indiscriminately post the Senate discussions in public. There are more key actors and enough muck to go around, one key actor can't even return to answer charges. Don't be so sure anyone would be brought up on trial; there are considerations that must be contemplated, tests of law that must be applied before an indictment can be issued. Those of us who have been here a few years and have seen the process know many times there has been disappointment no matter how strongly the people feel. That is what law is about, the process. No matter how exasperating it is. I find it interesting, amusing even, that the street "evidence" supplied regarding a alleged coup was played out publicly in the senate – a coup, by its very nature is a mostly secretive operation, appeals to the masses and is politically neutral – it does not incorporate negotiations within the government, i.e. the Senate – so it may not pass some of those tests. Not for me to decide, so when and if the time comes, and there is a comprehensive body of evidence, our laws will determine that – until then a coup is only alleged.
We have lots of opinions, mine included: most of us know the pop saying about "what opinions are like", and we have no shortages of those either :-)

Optime valete,

Julia
Nashvillae scribebat
a.d. XIV Kal. Sep. ‡ P. Ullerio C. Equitio cos. ‡ MMDCCLXIV

Est enim amicitia nihil aliud nisi omnium divinarum humanarumque rerum cum benevolenta et caritate consensio, qua quidem haud scio an excepta spientia nil quicquam melius homini sit a dis immortalibus datum ~ Cicero

http://aedesvenusgenetrix.blogspot.com/
http://www.thelastenchantment.com/
http://www.meetup.com/Mystic-Sanctuary-Of-Fortuna-Primigenia/
http://www.meetup.com/Temple-Of-Venus/
Securum in tenebris me facit esse Venus


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gaius Tullius Valerianus <gaius.tullius.valerianus@...> wrote:
>
> Gaius Tullius Valerianus Germanicus omnibus in foro, praecipue Scholasticae,
> S.P.D.
>
>
> > > ATS: Haec te pudere debent. Nec GEM nec MLA proditores sunt. Praeterea,
> > > quoad scio, Marinus particeps RPR non est, et paene sine dubio, esse non
> > vult.
> > > De Q, nescio, sed cum suffragia prioris anni corrupta et omnia munera
> > data
> > > fautoribus unius factionis quae feminas, linguas, peregrinos peregrinaque
> > non
> > > modo flocci facit, sed etiam odit, haud dubium est nonnullis omnia apud
> > NR
> > > pessum iisse et tempus discedendo pervenisse visum.
> >
>
> Ah, but Scholastica, I am not the one who adjudged the RPR to be our
> enemy. That was the Senate, a body to which you belong, not I. But the fate
> of those adjudged to be traitors in Roma Antiqua is well known. So take it
> up with the Senate. Not with me. I merely state the facts. Now, I am (or
> was, anyway) friendly with Agricola, and it saddens me that he chose the
> course he did. But he did. Facts are facts.
> As for the others, well, I don't know them so well, and I am not
> friends of theirs. Quintilianus is the "founder" or RPR, is he not? So that
> speaks for itself, according to the Senate. I don't know if Marinus is a
> member of RPR or not - and he did avoid direct responsibility in the
> attempted coup to overthrow the Roman government last year, even though it
> was he whom the plotters intended to make dictator - but in Roma Antiqua,
> that might have been enough. We are more enlightened today, perhaps, but my
> point is that Roma Antiqua would not have been so kind to these fellows as
> we are today.
>
> > At least Lentulus and Caeca are moderators too, and can
> > > make sure that the potential damage is limited, but it seems very
> > worrisome
> > > to me that an official NR list is in the hands of members of a group
> > > adjudged to be an enemy of NR by our Senate!
> > >
> > > ATS: Nugas et ineptias! Sine dubio inimici his eos maledicere volunt.
> > > Spero te veneno talium non infectum.
> >
>
> Really? You mean there is not an SCU in place declaring it so, and
> causing Piscinus and Agricola to be removed from our citizenry? I imagined
> that you folks in the Senate did this? My feverish imagination has been
> working overtime!
> I thought you passed that SCU . . .
>
> Now, please understand me, dear cousin, and everyone else following
> this thread - I am merely pointing out the facts as they stand. I rendered
> no opinion or judgement on those facts. Are the folks who own or run the
> newroman list considered a problem for NR? According to the SCU, yes, if
> they're in RPR. Are they traitors? If they swore oaths to NR and then
> violated them, then yes, they are. Was the penalty for treason in ancient
> Rome to be flung from the Tarpeian rock? Yes, it was. Facts.* *
> Do *I personally *want to see this happen to these individuals? No, I
> think that would be barbaric. But actions have consequences, and these
> people face consequences for their acts. One of the consequences is that
> they have no place assisting new citizens of NR get acclimated, since they
> are no longer citizens themselves, and 2 of them are *personae non gratae *for
> their participation in RPR. Marinus, on the other hand, could come back at
> any time . . . but he might face prosecution for his alleged role in the
> coup, so I imagine he will not.
>
> Now to the point - either the newroman list is still official, or it is not.
> Black and white, no shades of grey, no hemming, no hedging, no hiding behind
> other languages so that the majority of the people cannot follow. Yes or no.
> If it IS, then non-citizens ought not to be running the list. If it IS NOT,
> then the current owners need to conform to copyright laws and Yahoo terms of
> service, or there are penalties prescribed by law and by the Yahoo terms of
> service. That's all.
>
> The citizens of Nova Roma know me. They know that I stand for following the
> law, and doing what is right. It is not right to break our laws, or Yahoo's
> rules. It is not right to violate your sworn oath, or to betray your
> country. It is not right to illegally assume the dictatorship, or seize
> control of the government illegally (and to Marinus' credit, he refused to
> do so - but he still left).
>
> Vale, cousin Scholastica, et valete omnes!
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85232 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: No coup? O Rly?
Ave,

Whatever makes you sleep better at night Livia.....you can wrap yourself
under that delusion.

The truth is that I was willing to work with anyone...that is why when the
blasphemy issue was being debated and private negotiations were
happening...I immediately jumped at the opportunity to resolve the issue.
What happened in that? OH YEAH..Piscinus tried to blackmail Cato and I.

When I could have actually sued NR for Modianus removing me from the Board
of directors list....I was asked to give NR more time to resolve the
issue...I did so (though I did not need to) and bent over backwards
compromising to reach an amicable solution.

So, LIvia I think you have me confused with Piscinus again. I have been
compromising in just about every single area I can think of. It was TPTW
(the powers that were) that were continually uncompromising, continually
abrasive....and continually destructive.

Do I need to remind you of Piscinus's email after Caeca was in a car
accident...
Do I need to remind you of Maior's call for civil war?
Do I have to remind you of Maior's Praetorship?
Do I have to remind you of Maior's call to expel the monotheists?

I think I do. Because at this point it is clear you are not suffering from
any medical issue or mental illness..so that leaves one other conclusion.

Vale,

Sulla

On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 8:13 AM, L. Livia Plauta <livia.plauta@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> Salve Sulla,
> it was impossible to work with you, because the strategy of you and your
> friends was to veto anything the magistrates tried in order to prevent them
>
> from getting any problem solved and to prepare the ground for your own
> ascent to power.
> That's why your party prevented the agreement to fix Nova Roma's IT system
> then and later had to pay a good sum just to get a working voting system,
> which fixes about 10% of what the NR IT system used to do. (By the way, I'm
>
> really curious to see the new system implemented).
>
> But that's just one example: actually most of the crises were escalated by
> you and your friends. It's not by chance that the decline started when you
> were reinstated in the Senate.
>
> But now you have the power, so use it! let's see if your party can stop the
>
> decline of NR.
> You have a chance to prove me, Lentulus and Scholastica wrong by actually
> contributing to the seamless working of NR. You don't even have to overcome
>
> the same obstacles that we did, because all the opposition has left NR, and
>
> those who stayed have no position of power.
> You shouldn't have to worry about the way people judge the events of last
> year. After all, they are quite irrelevant for the present.
>
> Vale,
> Livia
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert" <robert.woolwine@...>
> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Cc: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 4:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] No coup? O Rly?
>
> Ave!
>
> Again my response is brief. Once there is an intercessio, as alby posted.
> It's done and any attempt to continue to press on by getting marinus
> appointed as dictator was a coup attempt. What stopped marinus from
> accepting the position was that Caesar and I warned him.... Do it and touch
>
> nova roma's money and he would be held personally accountable and we would
> sue him. At that point he decided to seek the advice of an attorney and he
> was told the office of dictator is incompatible with Maine law! What that
> means is that he would be held personally liable!
>
> Again attempted coup attempt failed!
>
> Had the coup plotters consulted an attorney first before they planned this
> attempt years ago, and this was planned for over a year...they could have
> helped nr by working with us instead of continually escalating each crisis
> to a new tipping point!
>
> Vale
>
> Sulla
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Aug 19, 2011, at 6:36 AM, "L. Livia Plauta" <livia.plauta@...>
> wrote:
>
> > L. Livia Plauta omnibus sal.
> >
> > I thank my friend Lentulus for sparing me the work to write on this
> topic,
> > by giving a detailed account of what happened and of our opinions on the
> > matter.
> >
> > I need to rewrite the following statement of his into correct English,
> > though, because it might be misunderstood in its current form.
> > Lentulus: "Only if we had Marinus as dictator!... I think we were light
> > years ahead today as compared to this dead frozen state in which NR
> > stagnates without leadership... "
> >
> > Meaning: "If only we had Marinus as a dictator! ... I think we would be
> > light years ahead today compared to this dead frozen state in which NR
> > stagnates without leadership ..."
> >
> > The only point where my opinion differs from Lentulus' is that I think
> > Nova
> > Roma can no longer be "saved" now, in the sense that as an organization
> it
> > is no longer suitable to support the Religio Romana (while it might still
>
> > be
> > a good place for reenactors who are not interested in Roman religon to
> > meet).
> >
> > I also thank senator Sulla for forwarding all those posts from the Senate
> > list.
> >
> > There used to be a "senate seal" in place, that is, senators were not
> > allowed to forward to the Main List posts form the Senate, or to post
> > about
> > the discussions going on there.
> >
> > So for me it's a surprise, for example, to see the post by Perusianus,
> who
> > usually doesn't post at all in the NR lists. Of course his assessment of
> > the
> > situation at the time was correct: most of the Italians had left NR and
> > were
> > happy with their Pomerium organization.
> >
> > Since then even the last attempt by me and Vindex to keep some people
> > interested in NR has failed.
> >
> > Quintilianus' assessment was also correct:
> > "Shrinking membership, less and less people who pay taxes and vote.
> > We are losing great parts of our Spanish, Italian and Latin American
> > citizens. No activity in Britannia and very little in Gallia. Those
> > who are in Sarmatia and other Eastern European countries are doing a
> > splendid job that gives us hope, but they might also also soon lose
> > hope, because of how we act and not act."
> >
> > Since then there was a mass secession of Sarmatian citizens, who keep
> > pursuing their goal of building a temple to Jupiter, but now outside Nova
> > Roma.
> >
> > Optime valete,
> > Livia
> >
> > > Lentulus omnibus sal.
> > >
> > > I don't want to waste my time on this discussion since I have explained
>
> > > my
> > > point of view several times in this and other mailing lists already.
> But
> > > as one of the many citizens who applauded the idea of appointing
> Marinus
> > > as dictator, I feel it's my moral obligation to comment and to repeat
> > > again that what happened last year it was NOT a "coup", and it is
> > > UTTERLY
> > > RIDICULOUS, PRETENTIOUS, AND POMPOUS to call it a "coup". But, of
> > > course,
> > > all of us must have the right to use the word which fits his taste.
> > >
> > > I, Scholastica, Livia - and I know that many other citizens - don't
> > > think
> > > that an appointment of a constitutional dictator can be labeled as a
> > > "coup", especially when it is done in a very serious crisis: exactly in
>
> > > a
> > > situation for what it is invented by our Constitution as a means of
> > > solution.
> > >
> > > I don't exactly know what Scholastica or Livia exactly think, but for
> me
> > > what happened last year was an attempt to save Nova Roma from the
> > > ongoing
> > > chaos by appointing a dictator, a very legal, constitutional and Roman
> > > thing, and it was initially supported by all senators except 1-2, later
> > > still by the overwhelming majority. Almost everyone wanted the
> dictator.
> > >
> > > Was this dictator election a pre-organized political action? OF COURSE
> > > it
> > > was, it had to be, as all well-thought-out political actions are
> > > pre-organized and conscious actions. I have presonally and repeatedly
> > > advocated for appointing a dictator in this very same mailing list
> since
> > > the beginning of the decline of NR. Many citizens trusted Marinus and I
> > > still think that he was an example of leadership, and he as a senior
> > > consular and esteemed senator could have introduced the necessary
> > > reforms
> > > into NR. For our detriment, and ever growing stagnation, he was not
> > > appointed as dictator and NR is today where it is. Only if we had
> > > Marinus
> > > as dictator!... I think we were light years ahead today as compared to
> > > this dead frozen state in which NR stagnates without leadership...
> > >
> > > So, what some very colorfully call a "coup d'etate", is viewed by many
> > > others as a heroic attempt to save Nova Roma from the
> > > internal warrings, stagnation and decline, using the constitutional
> > > option
> > > appointing a person trusted by most people as dictator.
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, the organizers of this dictator election committed an
> > > error - and this is why I must accept that the appointment was indeed
> > > not
> > > regular, thus not completely lawful.
> > >
> > > Why?
> > >
> > > The dictator election attempt was executed using legally questionable
> > > means, i.e. circumventing Albucius' consular veto by Consul
> > > Quintilianus'
> > > convening the senate jointly with the tribunes, which was (and still
> is)
> > > a
> > > matter of debate whether it is legal or illegal, but the debate was
> > > officially concluded by the rest of tribunes as illegal - though there
> > > are
> > > numerous theoretical objections. I, as a law respecting citizen,
> > > accepted
> > > the veto of the tribunes, and I still don't question the outcome: the
> > > dictator was vetoed. Cn. Marinus Censorius dictator-elect accepted it
> > > too.
> > > No dictator entered office.
> > >
> > > That the dictator election failed it was a tragedy, because I firmly
> > > beleive that Marinus as dictator could have stoped the stagnation of
> > > Nova Roma, could have solved our many technical and organizational
> > > problems including our IT problems immediately. Since then very few
> > > improvements was made on NR, and today it seems clearer than ever that
> > > the need for the dictator was fully justified.
> > >
> > > As for the featuring of a dictatorial appointment as a "coup d'etat",
> it
> > > is exaggerating, idiotic and pompous. What was, however, and still is a
> > > proper question regarding those events it is whether the consul can
> > > convene a senate session jointly by the tribunes or not. As it came out
> > > Nova Roma did not accept that legal approach, and thus the dictator was
> > > not deemed elected properly.
> > >
> > > So, accept that facts:
> > >
> > > 1) the dictator is a normal and legal solution in NR's constitution for
> > > handling crises;
> > > 2) many Nova Romans and senators wanted that dictator to handle the
> > > crisis
> > > of last year;
> > > 3) the intention and purpose with the dictator was legal since the
> > > institution itself is a legal NR institution;
> > > 4) the authority which was appointing it was legal since it's the
> > > prerogative of the senate, and it was the senate which was electing
> > > Marinus;
> > > 5) HOWEVER, the way of convening the senate (a consul JOINTLY with the
> > > tribunes) was dubious, and some accepted it as a legal way of convening
> > > the senate, since our laws did not prohibit it, some thought that it
> was
> > > not provided by our laws as an option because our laws did not
> > > explicitely
> > > allow it.
> > > 6) This way the whole business of appointing the dictator came to a
> > > legalistic dispute where the other consul and the other tribunes vetoed
> > > it, and finally Marinus himself declined the position.
> > >
> > > End of the story.
> > >
> > > Some are now convinced that Marinus as a dictator would have done
> > > tyrannic
> > > actions. Many others are convinced that Marinus would have been a true
> > > healer of our illnesses and a fair and just leader. Since Marinus has
> > > never been installed as dictator all what goes beyond the facts are
> mere
> > > fantasy. I personally am most convinced that Marinus would have never
> > > wanted confrontation with the law, consequently he as dictator would
> > > have
> > > worked for the benefit of all of NR.
> > >
> > > However, it is not the point of my message. The point of my message is
> > > the
> > > following:
> > >
> > > We can say that the dictator election was halted and the details of the
> > > procedure of convoking the session deemed irregular; BUT no one with
> > > sane
> > > judgement can call it a "coup d'etat" since the dictator, appointed by
> > > the
> > > senate, is a LEGAL, CONSTITUTIONAL and lawful institution in the NR
> > > Constitution. It can not be called a "coup" what is constitutional. All
> > > legal criteria were satisfied, except the bit with the joint
> > > consular-trinunicial convoking of the senate session, which is a matter
>
> > > of
> > > law interpretation, since it is not explicitely forbidden. Moreover,
> > > when
> > > it was vetoed, the whole procedure was terminated, and the dictator was
> > > not installed: consequently no law was violated.
> > >
> > > The conclusion is this: neither Scholastica, nor Livia, nor I are
> > > denying
> > > that SOMETHING happaned last year. And I AM confirming that what
> > > happened
> > > then it was legally problematic. But what I am saying with Scholatica
> > > and
> > > with others, it is that an office which is constitutional can not be
> > > called a "coup".
> > >
> > >
> > > I will not discuss this topic again: in the archieves you will find my
> > > full arguing among the old posts. I know that if you carefully think on
> > > the things what I have written, you will see that there is no
> > > justification to call last year events as a "coup". So there can not be
>
> > > a
> > > justified difference of opinion, unless one is driven purely
> emotionally
> > > against the whole issue. Where our opinions can, however, differ in the
> > > greatest extent it is whether the intention with the dictator was good
> > > or
> > > bad. But it is to decide for each citizen individually, since the
> > > dictatorship, as it came out, never started on.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85233 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: No coup? O Rly?
Ave,

Oh Livia, you better watch it the Praetorian police are going to start
knocking on your door.....gotta keep that paranoia going for ya! ;)

Vale,

Sulla

On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 9:35 AM, Robert Woolwine
<robert.woolwine@...>wrote:

> Ave,
>
> Whatever makes you sleep better at night Livia.....you can wrap yourself
> under that delusion.
>
> The truth is that I was willing to work with anyone...that is why when the
> blasphemy issue was being debated and private negotiations were
> happening...I immediately jumped at the opportunity to resolve the issue.
> What happened in that? OH YEAH..Piscinus tried to blackmail Cato and I.
>
> When I could have actually sued NR for Modianus removing me from the Board
> of directors list....I was asked to give NR more time to resolve the
> issue...I did so (though I did not need to) and bent over backwards
> compromising to reach an amicable solution.
>
> So, LIvia I think you have me confused with Piscinus again. I have been
> compromising in just about every single area I can think of. It was TPTW
> (the powers that were) that were continually uncompromising, continually
> abrasive....and continually destructive.
>
> Do I need to remind you of Piscinus's email after Caeca was in a car
> accident...
> Do I need to remind you of Maior's call for civil war?
> Do I have to remind you of Maior's Praetorship?
> Do I have to remind you of Maior's call to expel the monotheists?
>
> I think I do. Because at this point it is clear you are not suffering from
> any medical issue or mental illness..so that leaves one other conclusion.
>
> Vale,
>
> Sulla
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 8:13 AM, L. Livia Plauta <livia.plauta@...>wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>>
>> Salve Sulla,
>> it was impossible to work with you, because the strategy of you and your
>> friends was to veto anything the magistrates tried in order to prevent
>> them
>> from getting any problem solved and to prepare the ground for your own
>> ascent to power.
>> That's why your party prevented the agreement to fix Nova Roma's IT system
>>
>> then and later had to pay a good sum just to get a working voting system,
>> which fixes about 10% of what the NR IT system used to do. (By the way,
>> I'm
>> really curious to see the new system implemented).
>>
>> But that's just one example: actually most of the crises were escalated by
>>
>> you and your friends. It's not by chance that the decline started when you
>>
>> were reinstated in the Senate.
>>
>> But now you have the power, so use it! let's see if your party can stop
>> the
>> decline of NR.
>> You have a chance to prove me, Lentulus and Scholastica wrong by actually
>> contributing to the seamless working of NR. You don't even have to
>> overcome
>> the same obstacles that we did, because all the opposition has left NR,
>> and
>> those who stayed have no position of power.
>> You shouldn't have to worry about the way people judge the events of last
>> year. After all, they are quite irrelevant for the present.
>>
>> Vale,
>> Livia
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Robert" <robert.woolwine@...>
>> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
>> Cc: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
>> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 4:32 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] No coup? O Rly?
>>
>> Ave!
>>
>> Again my response is brief. Once there is an intercessio, as alby posted.
>> It's done and any attempt to continue to press on by getting marinus
>> appointed as dictator was a coup attempt. What stopped marinus from
>> accepting the position was that Caesar and I warned him.... Do it and
>> touch
>> nova roma's money and he would be held personally accountable and we would
>>
>> sue him. At that point he decided to seek the advice of an attorney and he
>>
>> was told the office of dictator is incompatible with Maine law! What that
>> means is that he would be held personally liable!
>>
>> Again attempted coup attempt failed!
>>
>> Had the coup plotters consulted an attorney first before they planned this
>>
>> attempt years ago, and this was planned for over a year...they could have
>> helped nr by working with us instead of continually escalating each crisis
>>
>> to a new tipping point!
>>
>> Vale
>>
>> Sulla
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Aug 19, 2011, at 6:36 AM, "L. Livia Plauta" <livia.plauta@...>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > L. Livia Plauta omnibus sal.
>> >
>> > I thank my friend Lentulus for sparing me the work to write on this
>> topic,
>> > by giving a detailed account of what happened and of our opinions on the
>> > matter.
>> >
>> > I need to rewrite the following statement of his into correct English,
>> > though, because it might be misunderstood in its current form.
>> > Lentulus: "Only if we had Marinus as dictator!... I think we were light
>> > years ahead today as compared to this dead frozen state in which NR
>> > stagnates without leadership... "
>> >
>> > Meaning: "If only we had Marinus as a dictator! ... I think we would be
>> > light years ahead today compared to this dead frozen state in which NR
>> > stagnates without leadership ..."
>> >
>> > The only point where my opinion differs from Lentulus' is that I think
>> > Nova
>> > Roma can no longer be "saved" now, in the sense that as an organization
>> it
>> > is no longer suitable to support the Religio Romana (while it might
>> still
>> > be
>> > a good place for reenactors who are not interested in Roman religon to
>> > meet).
>> >
>> > I also thank senator Sulla for forwarding all those posts from the
>> Senate
>> > list.
>> >
>> > There used to be a "senate seal" in place, that is, senators were not
>> > allowed to forward to the Main List posts form the Senate, or to post
>> > about
>> > the discussions going on there.
>> >
>> > So for me it's a surprise, for example, to see the post by Perusianus,
>> who
>> > usually doesn't post at all in the NR lists. Of course his assessment of
>>
>> > the
>> > situation at the time was correct: most of the Italians had left NR and
>> > were
>> > happy with their Pomerium organization.
>> >
>> > Since then even the last attempt by me and Vindex to keep some people
>> > interested in NR has failed.
>> >
>> > Quintilianus' assessment was also correct:
>> > "Shrinking membership, less and less people who pay taxes and vote.
>> > We are losing great parts of our Spanish, Italian and Latin American
>> > citizens. No activity in Britannia and very little in Gallia. Those
>> > who are in Sarmatia and other Eastern European countries are doing a
>> > splendid job that gives us hope, but they might also also soon lose
>> > hope, because of how we act and not act."
>> >
>> > Since then there was a mass secession of Sarmatian citizens, who keep
>> > pursuing their goal of building a temple to Jupiter, but now outside
>> Nova
>> > Roma.
>> >
>> > Optime valete,
>> > Livia
>> >
>> > > Lentulus omnibus sal.
>> > >
>> > > I don't want to waste my time on this discussion since I have
>> explained
>> > > my
>> > > point of view several times in this and other mailing lists already.
>> But
>> > > as one of the many citizens who applauded the idea of appointing
>> Marinus
>> > > as dictator, I feel it's my moral obligation to comment and to repeat
>> > > again that what happened last year it was NOT a "coup", and it is
>> > > UTTERLY
>> > > RIDICULOUS, PRETENTIOUS, AND POMPOUS to call it a "coup". But, of
>> > > course,
>> > > all of us must have the right to use the word which fits his taste.
>> > >
>> > > I, Scholastica, Livia - and I know that many other citizens - don't
>> > > think
>> > > that an appointment of a constitutional dictator can be labeled as a
>> > > "coup", especially when it is done in a very serious crisis: exactly
>> in
>> > > a
>> > > situation for what it is invented by our Constitution as a means of
>> > > solution.
>> > >
>> > > I don't exactly know what Scholastica or Livia exactly think, but for
>> me
>> > > what happened last year was an attempt to save Nova Roma from the
>> > > ongoing
>> > > chaos by appointing a dictator, a very legal, constitutional and Roman
>> > > thing, and it was initially supported by all senators except 1-2,
>> later
>> > > still by the overwhelming majority. Almost everyone wanted the
>> dictator.
>> > >
>> > > Was this dictator election a pre-organized political action? OF COURSE
>>
>> > > it
>> > > was, it had to be, as all well-thought-out political actions are
>> > > pre-organized and conscious actions. I have presonally and repeatedly
>> > > advocated for appointing a dictator in this very same mailing list
>> since
>> > > the beginning of the decline of NR. Many citizens trusted Marinus and
>> I
>> > > still think that he was an example of leadership, and he as a senior
>> > > consular and esteemed senator could have introduced the necessary
>> > > reforms
>> > > into NR. For our detriment, and ever growing stagnation, he was not
>> > > appointed as dictator and NR is today where it is. Only if we had
>> > > Marinus
>> > > as dictator!... I think we were light years ahead today as compared to
>> > > this dead frozen state in which NR stagnates without leadership...
>> > >
>> > > So, what some very colorfully call a "coup d'etate", is viewed by many
>> > > others as a heroic attempt to save Nova Roma from the
>> > > internal warrings, stagnation and decline, using the constitutional
>> > > option
>> > > appointing a person trusted by most people as dictator.
>> > >
>> > > Unfortunately, the organizers of this dictator election committed an
>> > > error - and this is why I must accept that the appointment was indeed
>> > > not
>> > > regular, thus not completely lawful.
>> > >
>> > > Why?
>> > >
>> > > The dictator election attempt was executed using legally questionable
>> > > means, i.e. circumventing Albucius' consular veto by Consul
>> > > Quintilianus'
>> > > convening the senate jointly with the tribunes, which was (and still
>> is)
>> > > a
>> > > matter of debate whether it is legal or illegal, but the debate was
>> > > officially concluded by the rest of tribunes as illegal - though there
>>
>> > > are
>> > > numerous theoretical objections. I, as a law respecting citizen,
>> > > accepted
>> > > the veto of the tribunes, and I still don't question the outcome: the
>> > > dictator was vetoed. Cn. Marinus Censorius dictator-elect accepted it
>> > > too.
>> > > No dictator entered office.
>> > >
>> > > That the dictator election failed it was a tragedy, because I firmly
>> > > beleive that Marinus as dictator could have stoped the stagnation of
>> > > Nova Roma, could have solved our many technical and organizational
>> > > problems including our IT problems immediately. Since then very few
>> > > improvements was made on NR, and today it seems clearer than ever that
>> > > the need for the dictator was fully justified.
>> > >
>> > > As for the featuring of a dictatorial appointment as a "coup d'etat",
>> it
>> > > is exaggerating, idiotic and pompous. What was, however, and still is
>> a
>> > > proper question regarding those events it is whether the consul can
>> > > convene a senate session jointly by the tribunes or not. As it came
>> out
>> > > Nova Roma did not accept that legal approach, and thus the dictator
>> was
>> > > not deemed elected properly.
>> > >
>> > > So, accept that facts:
>> > >
>> > > 1) the dictator is a normal and legal solution in NR's constitution
>> for
>> > > handling crises;
>> > > 2) many Nova Romans and senators wanted that dictator to handle the
>> > > crisis
>> > > of last year;
>> > > 3) the intention and purpose with the dictator was legal since the
>> > > institution itself is a legal NR institution;
>> > > 4) the authority which was appointing it was legal since it's the
>> > > prerogative of the senate, and it was the senate which was electing
>> > > Marinus;
>> > > 5) HOWEVER, the way of convening the senate (a consul JOINTLY with the
>> > > tribunes) was dubious, and some accepted it as a legal way of
>> convening
>> > > the senate, since our laws did not prohibit it, some thought that it
>> was
>> > > not provided by our laws as an option because our laws did not
>> > > explicitely
>> > > allow it.
>> > > 6) This way the whole business of appointing the dictator came to a
>> > > legalistic dispute where the other consul and the other tribunes
>> vetoed
>> > > it, and finally Marinus himself declined the position.
>> > >
>> > > End of the story.
>> > >
>> > > Some are now convinced that Marinus as a dictator would have done
>> > > tyrannic
>> > > actions. Many others are convinced that Marinus would have been a true
>> > > healer of our illnesses and a fair and just leader. Since Marinus has
>> > > never been installed as dictator all what goes beyond the facts are
>> mere
>> > > fantasy. I personally am most convinced that Marinus would have never
>> > > wanted confrontation with the law, consequently he as dictator would
>> > > have
>> > > worked for the benefit of all of NR.
>> > >
>> > > However, it is not the point of my message. The point of my message is
>>
>> > > the
>> > > following:
>> > >
>> > > We can say that the dictator election was halted and the details of
>> the
>> > > procedure of convoking the session deemed irregular; BUT no one with
>> > > sane
>> > > judgement can call it a "coup d'etat" since the dictator, appointed by
>>
>> > > the
>> > > senate, is a LEGAL, CONSTITUTIONAL and lawful institution in the NR
>> > > Constitution. It can not be called a "coup" what is constitutional.
>> All
>> > > legal criteria were satisfied, except the bit with the joint
>> > > consular-trinunicial convoking of the senate session, which is a
>> matter
>> > > of
>> > > law interpretation, since it is not explicitely forbidden. Moreover,
>> > > when
>> > > it was vetoed, the whole procedure was terminated, and the dictator
>> was
>> > > not installed: consequently no law was violated.
>> > >
>> > > The conclusion is this: neither Scholastica, nor Livia, nor I are
>> > > denying
>> > > that SOMETHING happaned last year. And I AM confirming that what
>> > > happened
>> > > then it was legally problematic. But what I am saying with Scholatica
>> > > and
>> > > with others, it is that an office which is constitutional can not be
>> > > called a "coup".
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > I will not discuss this topic again: in the archieves you will find my
>> > > full arguing among the old posts. I know that if you carefully think
>> on
>> > > the things what I have written, you will see that there is no
>> > > justification to call last year events as a "coup". So there can not
>> be
>> > > a
>> > > justified difference of opinion, unless one is driven purely
>> emotionally
>> > > against the whole issue. Where our opinions can, however, differ in
>> the
>> > > greatest extent it is whether the intention with the dictator was good
>>
>> > > or
>> > > bad. But it is to decide for each citizen individually, since the
>> > > dictatorship, as it came out, never started on.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85234 From: V. Valerius Volusus Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: No coup? O Rly?
Grow up.

On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 11:37 PM, Robert Woolwine <robert.woolwine@...
> wrote:

> Ave,
>
> Oh Livia, you better watch it the Praetorian police are going to start
> knocking on your door.....gotta keep that paranoia going for ya! ;)
>
> Vale,
>
> Sulla
>
> On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 9:35 AM, Robert Woolwine
> <robert.woolwine@...>wrote:
>
> > Ave,
> >
> > Whatever makes you sleep better at night Livia.....you can wrap yourself
> > under that delusion.
> >
> > The truth is that I was willing to work with anyone...that is why when
> the
> > blasphemy issue was being debated and private negotiations were
> > happening...I immediately jumped at the opportunity to resolve the issue.
> > What happened in that? OH YEAH..Piscinus tried to blackmail Cato and I.
> >
> > When I could have actually sued NR for Modianus removing me from the
> Board
> > of directors list....I was asked to give NR more time to resolve the
> > issue...I did so (though I did not need to) and bent over backwards
> > compromising to reach an amicable solution.
> >
> > So, LIvia I think you have me confused with Piscinus again. I have been
> > compromising in just about every single area I can think of. It was TPTW
> > (the powers that were) that were continually uncompromising, continually
> > abrasive....and continually destructive.
> >
> > Do I need to remind you of Piscinus's email after Caeca was in a car
> > accident...
> > Do I need to remind you of Maior's call for civil war?
> > Do I have to remind you of Maior's Praetorship?
> > Do I have to remind you of Maior's call to expel the monotheists?
> >
> > I think I do. Because at this point it is clear you are not suffering
> from
> > any medical issue or mental illness..so that leaves one other conclusion.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Sulla
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 8:13 AM, L. Livia Plauta <livia.plauta@...
> >wrote:
> >
> >> **
> >>
> >>
> >> Salve Sulla,
> >> it was impossible to work with you, because the strategy of you and your
> >> friends was to veto anything the magistrates tried in order to prevent
> >> them
> >> from getting any problem solved and to prepare the ground for your own
> >> ascent to power.
> >> That's why your party prevented the agreement to fix Nova Roma's IT
> system
> >>
> >> then and later had to pay a good sum just to get a working voting
> system,
> >> which fixes about 10% of what the NR IT system used to do. (By the way,
> >> I'm
> >> really curious to see the new system implemented).
> >>
> >> But that's just one example: actually most of the crises were escalated
> by
> >>
> >> you and your friends. It's not by chance that the decline started when
> you
> >>
> >> were reinstated in the Senate.
> >>
> >> But now you have the power, so use it! let's see if your party can stop
> >> the
> >> decline of NR.
> >> You have a chance to prove me, Lentulus and Scholastica wrong by
> actually
> >> contributing to the seamless working of NR. You don't even have to
> >> overcome
> >> the same obstacles that we did, because all the opposition has left NR,
> >> and
> >> those who stayed have no position of power.
> >> You shouldn't have to worry about the way people judge the events of
> last
> >> year. After all, they are quite irrelevant for the present.
> >>
> >> Vale,
> >> Livia
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Robert" <robert.woolwine@...>
> >> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> >> Cc: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> >> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 4:32 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] No coup? O Rly?
> >>
> >> Ave!
> >>
> >> Again my response is brief. Once there is an intercessio, as alby
> posted.
> >> It's done and any attempt to continue to press on by getting marinus
> >> appointed as dictator was a coup attempt. What stopped marinus from
> >> accepting the position was that Caesar and I warned him.... Do it and
> >> touch
> >> nova roma's money and he would be held personally accountable and we
> would
> >>
> >> sue him. At that point he decided to seek the advice of an attorney and
> he
> >>
> >> was told the office of dictator is incompatible with Maine law! What
> that
> >> means is that he would be held personally liable!
> >>
> >> Again attempted coup attempt failed!
> >>
> >> Had the coup plotters consulted an attorney first before they planned
> this
> >>
> >> attempt years ago, and this was planned for over a year...they could
> have
> >> helped nr by working with us instead of continually escalating each
> crisis
> >>
> >> to a new tipping point!
> >>
> >> Vale
> >>
> >> Sulla
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >> On Aug 19, 2011, at 6:36 AM, "L. Livia Plauta" <livia.plauta@...>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > L. Livia Plauta omnibus sal.
> >> >
> >> > I thank my friend Lentulus for sparing me the work to write on this
> >> topic,
> >> > by giving a detailed account of what happened and of our opinions on
> the
> >> > matter.
> >> >
> >> > I need to rewrite the following statement of his into correct English,
> >> > though, because it might be misunderstood in its current form.
> >> > Lentulus: "Only if we had Marinus as dictator!... I think we were
> light
> >> > years ahead today as compared to this dead frozen state in which NR
> >> > stagnates without leadership... "
> >> >
> >> > Meaning: "If only we had Marinus as a dictator! ... I think we would
> be
> >> > light years ahead today compared to this dead frozen state in which NR
> >> > stagnates without leadership ..."
> >> >
> >> > The only point where my opinion differs from Lentulus' is that I think
> >> > Nova
> >> > Roma can no longer be "saved" now, in the sense that as an
> organization
> >> it
> >> > is no longer suitable to support the Religio Romana (while it might
> >> still
> >> > be
> >> > a good place for reenactors who are not interested in Roman religon to
> >> > meet).
> >> >
> >> > I also thank senator Sulla for forwarding all those posts from the
> >> Senate
> >> > list.
> >> >
> >> > There used to be a "senate seal" in place, that is, senators were not
> >> > allowed to forward to the Main List posts form the Senate, or to post
> >> > about
> >> > the discussions going on there.
> >> >
> >> > So for me it's a surprise, for example, to see the post by Perusianus,
> >> who
> >> > usually doesn't post at all in the NR lists. Of course his assessment
> of
> >>
> >> > the
> >> > situation at the time was correct: most of the Italians had left NR
> and
> >> > were
> >> > happy with their Pomerium organization.
> >> >
> >> > Since then even the last attempt by me and Vindex to keep some people
> >> > interested in NR has failed.
> >> >
> >> > Quintilianus' assessment was also correct:
> >> > "Shrinking membership, less and less people who pay taxes and vote.
> >> > We are losing great parts of our Spanish, Italian and Latin American
> >> > citizens. No activity in Britannia and very little in Gallia. Those
> >> > who are in Sarmatia and other Eastern European countries are doing a
> >> > splendid job that gives us hope, but they might also also soon lose
> >> > hope, because of how we act and not act."
> >> >
> >> > Since then there was a mass secession of Sarmatian citizens, who keep
> >> > pursuing their goal of building a temple to Jupiter, but now outside
> >> Nova
> >> > Roma.
> >> >
> >> > Optime valete,
> >> > Livia
> >> >
> >> > > Lentulus omnibus sal.
> >> > >
> >> > > I don't want to waste my time on this discussion since I have
> >> explained
> >> > > my
> >> > > point of view several times in this and other mailing lists already.
> >> But
> >> > > as one of the many citizens who applauded the idea of appointing
> >> Marinus
> >> > > as dictator, I feel it's my moral obligation to comment and to
> repeat
> >> > > again that what happened last year it was NOT a "coup", and it is
> >> > > UTTERLY
> >> > > RIDICULOUS, PRETENTIOUS, AND POMPOUS to call it a "coup". But, of
> >> > > course,
> >> > > all of us must have the right to use the word which fits his taste.
> >> > >
> >> > > I, Scholastica, Livia - and I know that many other citizens - don't
> >> > > think
> >> > > that an appointment of a constitutional dictator can be labeled as a
> >> > > "coup", especially when it is done in a very serious crisis: exactly
> >> in
> >> > > a
> >> > > situation for what it is invented by our Constitution as a means of
> >> > > solution.
> >> > >
> >> > > I don't exactly know what Scholastica or Livia exactly think, but
> for
> >> me
> >> > > what happened last year was an attempt to save Nova Roma from the
> >> > > ongoing
> >> > > chaos by appointing a dictator, a very legal, constitutional and
> Roman
> >> > > thing, and it was initially supported by all senators except 1-2,
> >> later
> >> > > still by the overwhelming majority. Almost everyone wanted the
> >> dictator.
> >> > >
> >> > > Was this dictator election a pre-organized political action? OF
> COURSE
> >>
> >> > > it
> >> > > was, it had to be, as all well-thought-out political actions are
> >> > > pre-organized and conscious actions. I have presonally and
> repeatedly
> >> > > advocated for appointing a dictator in this very same mailing list
> >> since
> >> > > the beginning of the decline of NR. Many citizens trusted Marinus
> and
> >> I
> >> > > still think that he was an example of leadership, and he as a senior
> >> > > consular and esteemed senator could have introduced the necessary
> >> > > reforms
> >> > > into NR. For our detriment, and ever growing stagnation, he was not
> >> > > appointed as dictator and NR is today where it is. Only if we had
> >> > > Marinus
> >> > > as dictator!... I think we were light years ahead today as compared
> to
> >> > > this dead frozen state in which NR stagnates without leadership...
> >> > >
> >> > > So, what some very colorfully call a "coup d'etate", is viewed by
> many
> >> > > others as a heroic attempt to save Nova Roma from the
> >> > > internal warrings, stagnation and decline, using the constitutional
> >> > > option
> >> > > appointing a person trusted by most people as dictator.
> >> > >
> >> > > Unfortunately, the organizers of this dictator election committed an
> >> > > error - and this is why I must accept that the appointment was
> indeed
> >> > > not
> >> > > regular, thus not completely lawful.
> >> > >
> >> > > Why?
> >> > >
> >> > > The dictator election attempt was executed using legally
> questionable
> >> > > means, i.e. circumventing Albucius' consular veto by Consul
> >> > > Quintilianus'
> >> > > convening the senate jointly with the tribunes, which was (and still
> >> is)
> >> > > a
> >> > > matter of debate whether it is legal or illegal, but the debate was
> >> > > officially concluded by the rest of tribunes as illegal - though
> there
> >>
> >> > > are
> >> > > numerous theoretical objections. I, as a law respecting citizen,
> >> > > accepted
> >> > > the veto of the tribunes, and I still don't question the outcome:
> the
> >> > > dictator was vetoed. Cn. Marinus Censorius dictator-elect accepted
> it
> >> > > too.
> >> > > No dictator entered office.
> >> > >
> >> > > That the dictator election failed it was a tragedy, because I firmly
> >> > > beleive that Marinus as dictator could have stoped the stagnation of
> >> > > Nova Roma, could have solved our many technical and organizational
> >> > > problems including our IT problems immediately. Since then very few
> >> > > improvements was made on NR, and today it seems clearer than ever
> that
> >> > > the need for the dictator was fully justified.
> >> > >
> >> > > As for the featuring of a dictatorial appointment as a "coup
> d'etat",
> >> it
> >> > > is exaggerating, idiotic and pompous. What was, however, and still
> is
> >> a
> >> > > proper question regarding those events it is whether the consul can
> >> > > convene a senate session jointly by the tribunes or not. As it came
> >> out
> >> > > Nova Roma did not accept that legal approach, and thus the dictator
> >> was
> >> > > not deemed elected properly.
> >> > >
> >> > > So, accept that facts:
> >> > >
> >> > > 1) the dictator is a normal and legal solution in NR's constitution
> >> for
> >> > > handling crises;
> >> > > 2) many Nova Romans and senators wanted that dictator to handle the
> >> > > crisis
> >> > > of last year;
> >> > > 3) the intention and purpose with the dictator was legal since the
> >> > > institution itself is a legal NR institution;
> >> > > 4) the authority which was appointing it was legal since it's the
> >> > > prerogative of the senate, and it was the senate which was electing
> >> > > Marinus;
> >> > > 5) HOWEVER, the way of convening the senate (a consul JOINTLY with
> the
> >> > > tribunes) was dubious, and some accepted it as a legal way of
> >> convening
> >> > > the senate, since our laws did not prohibit it, some thought that it
> >> was
> >> > > not provided by our laws as an option because our laws did not
> >> > > explicitely
> >> > > allow it.
> >> > > 6) This way the whole business of appointing the dictator came to a
> >> > > legalistic dispute where the other consul and the other tribunes
> >> vetoed
> >> > > it, and finally Marinus himself declined the position.
> >> > >
> >> > > End of the story.
> >> > >
> >> > > Some are now convinced that Marinus as a dictator would have done
> >> > > tyrannic
> >> > > actions. Many others are convinced that Marinus would have been a
> true
> >> > > healer of our illnesses and a fair and just leader. Since Marinus
> has
> >> > > never been installed as dictator all what goes beyond the facts are
> >> mere
> >> > > fantasy. I personally am most convinced that Marinus would have
> never
> >> > > wanted confrontation with the law, consequently he as dictator would
> >> > > have
> >> > > worked for the benefit of all of NR.
> >> > >
> >> > > However, it is not the point of my message. The point of my message
> is
> >>
> >> > > the
> >> > > following:
> >> > >
> >> > > We can say that the dictator election was halted and the details of
> >> the
> >> > > procedure of convoking the session deemed irregular; BUT no one with
> >> > > sane
> >> > > judgement can call it a "coup d'etat" since the dictator, appointed
> by
> >>
> >> > > the
> >> > > senate, is a LEGAL, CONSTITUTIONAL and lawful institution in the NR
> >> > > Constitution. It can not be called a "coup" what is constitutional.
> >> All
> >> > > legal criteria were satisfied, except the bit with the joint
> >> > > consular-trinunicial convoking of the senate session, which is a
> >> matter
> >> > > of
> >> > > law interpretation, since it is not explicitely forbidden. Moreover,
> >> > > when
> >> > > it was vetoed, the whole procedure was terminated, and the dictator
> >> was
> >> > > not installed: consequently no law was violated.
> >> > >
> >> > > The conclusion is this: neither Scholastica, nor Livia, nor I are
> >> > > denying
> >> > > that SOMETHING happaned last year. And I AM confirming that what
> >> > > happened
> >> > > then it was legally problematic. But what I am saying with
> Scholatica
> >> > > and
> >> > > with others, it is that an office which is constitutional can not be
> >> > > called a "coup".
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > I will not discuss this topic again: in the archieves you will find
> my
> >> > > full arguing among the old posts. I know that if you carefully think
> >> on
> >> > > the things what I have written, you will see that there is no
> >> > > justification to call last year events as a "coup". So there can not
> >> be
> >> > > a
> >> > > justified difference of opinion, unless one is driven purely
> >> emotionally
> >> > > against the whole issue. Where our opinions can, however, differ in
> >> the
> >> > > greatest extent it is whether the intention with the dictator was
> good
> >>
> >> > > or
> >> > > bad. But it is to decide for each citizen individually, since the
> >> > > dictatorship, as it came out, never started on.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85235 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: Law Admin "newroman" list issue
Avete Iulia et Omnes

Well when individuals follow the path of say..a Ernst Zundel (google the
name if you do not know who he is) well then I have a problem. Facts are
facts. They deserve to be in the open and light of day. Nuance is used to
rationalize the illegal actions some in the past have taken and is nothing
more than trying to justify illegal actions.

If the actions were legal...those who took part of the coup attempt would
have succeded. And, it really is that simple.

Be apart of the debate or not....is irrelevant because in the end...if their
actions were legal - they would have been successful.

Vale,

Sulla

On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 9:19 AM, luciaiuliaaquila <
luciaiuliaaquila@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Iulia Lentulo pontifici Tullio auguri Tulliae senatrici Corneli senatori
> Liviae Quiritibusque S.P.D.
>
> Holding a street trial in absentia, lacks dignitas. There is nothing
> offered in the past few days as evidence that we have not seen before or has
> not occurred before, and in some cases several times, in Nova Roma's history
> – and earning similar consternation. Such charges may not pass the pretrial
> review or tests via the praetors and the censors, in addition further
> discussion while conducting a street trial and levying judgments,
> particularly by a person in authority, or perceived authority, will negate
> any chance for a fair trial and by doing so further mars any chance that
> charges will pass the pre-trial tests for actual offenses or the ability to
> have a fair trial. To me the point is moot and I will not be engaging in
> such a discussion in a conscious effort to protect the rights of all sides
> and the integrity of the law process – because right now it has become about
> how bad existing members who support those accused in this street trial can
> be made to appear and how noble others wish to be perceived and just may
> cause more division. For example, I am not going to discuss this and remain
> non-committal because if called as a witness I want my statement to mean
> something and there are others who may be integral to any such proceedings
> who will protect the potential value of their knowledge as well. Best I can
> say is the obvious; depends upon the perception of those who oppose and
> those who support and, in each case the "evidence" offered on the street is
> only part of the story. Just a note but after the third repost of what
> happened last night two citizens left the list. The Senate seal is not a
> law, but it is based on trust that those Senators take their virtues and
> Nova Roma seriously enough that they honor the Senate Seal of Nova Roma and
> not indiscriminately post the Senate discussions in public. There are more
> key actors and enough muck to go around, one key actor can't even return to
> answer charges. Don't be so sure anyone would be brought up on trial; there
> are considerations that must be contemplated, tests of law that must be
> applied before an indictment can be issued. Those of us who have been here a
> few years and have seen the process know many times there has been
> disappointment no matter how strongly the people feel. That is what law is
> about, the process. No matter how exasperating it is. I find it interesting,
> amusing even, that the street "evidence" supplied regarding a alleged coup
> was played out publicly in the senate – a coup, by its very nature is a
> mostly secretive operation, appeals to the masses and is politically neutral
> – it does not incorporate negotiations within the government, i.e. the
> Senate – so it may not pass some of those tests. Not for me to decide, so
> when and if the time comes, and there is a comprehensive body of evidence,
> our laws will determine that – until then a coup is only alleged.
> We have lots of opinions, mine included: most of us know the pop saying
> about "what opinions are like", and we have no shortages of those either :-)
>
> Optime valete,
>
> Julia
> Nashvillae scribebat
> a.d. XIV Kal. Sep. ‡ P. Ullerio C. Equitio cos. ‡ MMDCCLXIV
>
> Est enim amicitia nihil aliud nisi omnium divinarum humanarumque rerum cum
> benevolenta et caritate consensio, qua quidem haud scio an excepta spientia
> nil quicquam melius homini sit a dis immortalibus datum ~ Cicero
>
> http://aedesvenusgenetrix.blogspot.com/
> http://www.thelastenchantment.com/
> http://www.meetup.com/Mystic-Sanctuary-Of-Fortuna-Primigenia/
> http://www.meetup.com/Temple-Of-Venus/
> Securum in tenebris me facit esse Venus
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gaius Tullius Valerianus
> <gaius.tullius.valerianus@...> wrote:
> >
> > Gaius Tullius Valerianus Germanicus omnibus in foro, praecipue
> Scholasticae,
> > S.P.D.
> >
> >
> > > > ATS: Haec te pudere debent. Nec GEM nec MLA proditores sunt.
> Praeterea,
> > > > quoad scio, Marinus particeps RPR non est, et paene sine dubio, esse
> non
> > > vult.
> > > > De Q, nescio, sed cum suffragia prioris anni corrupta et omnia munera
> > > data
> > > > fautoribus unius factionis quae feminas, linguas, peregrinos
> peregrinaque
> > > non
> > > > modo flocci facit, sed etiam odit, haud dubium est nonnullis omnia
> apud
> > > NR
> > > > pessum iisse et tempus discedendo pervenisse visum.
> > >
> >
> > Ah, but Scholastica, I am not the one who adjudged the RPR to be our
> > enemy. That was the Senate, a body to which you belong, not I. But the
> fate
> > of those adjudged to be traitors in Roma Antiqua is well known. So take
> it
> > up with the Senate. Not with me. I merely state the facts. Now, I am (or
> > was, anyway) friendly with Agricola, and it saddens me that he chose the
> > course he did. But he did. Facts are facts.
> > As for the others, well, I don't know them so well, and I am not
> > friends of theirs. Quintilianus is the "founder" or RPR, is he not? So
> that
> > speaks for itself, according to the Senate. I don't know if Marinus is a
> > member of RPR or not - and he did avoid direct responsibility in the
> > attempted coup to overthrow the Roman government last year, even though
> it
> > was he whom the plotters intended to make dictator - but in Roma Antiqua,
> > that might have been enough. We are more enlightened today, perhaps, but
> my
> > point is that Roma Antiqua would not have been so kind to these fellows
> as
> > we are today.
> >
> > > At least Lentulus and Caeca are moderators too, and can
> > > > make sure that the potential damage is limited, but it seems very
> > > worrisome
> > > > to me that an official NR list is in the hands of members of a group
> > > > adjudged to be an enemy of NR by our Senate!
> > > >
> > > > ATS: Nugas et ineptias! Sine dubio inimici his eos maledicere volunt.
> > > > Spero te veneno talium non infectum.
> > >
> >
> > Really? You mean there is not an SCU in place declaring it so, and
> > causing Piscinus and Agricola to be removed from our citizenry? I
> imagined
> > that you folks in the Senate did this? My feverish imagination has been
> > working overtime!
> > I thought you passed that SCU . . .
> >
> > Now, please understand me, dear cousin, and everyone else following
> > this thread - I am merely pointing out the facts as they stand. I
> rendered
> > no opinion or judgement on those facts. Are the folks who own or run the
> > newroman list considered a problem for NR? According to the SCU, yes, if
> > they're in RPR. Are they traitors? If they swore oaths to NR and then
> > violated them, then yes, they are. Was the penalty for treason in ancient
> > Rome to be flung from the Tarpeian rock? Yes, it was. Facts.* *
> > Do *I personally *want to see this happen to these individuals? No, I
> > think that would be barbaric. But actions have consequences, and these
> > people face consequences for their acts. One of the consequences is that
> > they have no place assisting new citizens of NR get acclimated, since
> they
> > are no longer citizens themselves, and 2 of them are *personae non gratae
> *for
> > their participation in RPR. Marinus, on the other hand, could come back
> at
> > any time . . . but he might face prosecution for his alleged role in the
> > coup, so I imagine he will not.
> >
> > Now to the point - either the newroman list is still official, or it is
> not.
> > Black and white, no shades of grey, no hemming, no hedging, no hiding
> behind
> > other languages so that the majority of the people cannot follow. Yes or
> no.
> > If it IS, then non-citizens ought not to be running the list. If it IS
> NOT,
> > then the current owners need to conform to copyright laws and Yahoo terms
> of
> > service, or there are penalties prescribed by law and by the Yahoo terms
> of
> > service. That's all.
> >
> > The citizens of Nova Roma know me. They know that I stand for following
> the
> > law, and doing what is right. It is not right to break our laws, or
> Yahoo's
> > rules. It is not right to violate your sworn oath, or to betray your
> > country. It is not right to illegally assume the dictatorship, or seize
> > control of the government illegally (and to Marinus' credit, he refused
> to
> > do so - but he still left).
> >
> > Vale, cousin Scholastica, et valete omnes!
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85236 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: No coup? O Rly?
Ave,

She is the one with the delusional fear that she has no free speech! She
needs to make sure her home is locked and secure..because you never know
when the cops will come and get ya!

Vale,

Sulla

On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 9:47 AM, V. Valerius Volusus <nykcowham@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> Grow up.
>
> On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 11:37 PM, Robert Woolwine <
> robert.woolwine@...
>
> > wrote:
>
> > Ave,
> >
> > Oh Livia, you better watch it the Praetorian police are going to start
> > knocking on your door.....gotta keep that paranoia going for ya! ;)
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Sulla
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 9:35 AM, Robert Woolwine
> > <robert.woolwine@...>wrote:
> >
> > > Ave,
> > >
> > > Whatever makes you sleep better at night Livia.....you can wrap
> yourself
> > > under that delusion.
> > >
> > > The truth is that I was willing to work with anyone...that is why when
> > the
> > > blasphemy issue was being debated and private negotiations were
> > > happening...I immediately jumped at the opportunity to resolve the
> issue.
> > > What happened in that? OH YEAH..Piscinus tried to blackmail Cato and I.
> > >
> > > When I could have actually sued NR for Modianus removing me from the
> > Board
> > > of directors list....I was asked to give NR more time to resolve the
> > > issue...I did so (though I did not need to) and bent over backwards
> > > compromising to reach an amicable solution.
> > >
> > > So, LIvia I think you have me confused with Piscinus again. I have been
> > > compromising in just about every single area I can think of. It was
> TPTW
> > > (the powers that were) that were continually uncompromising,
> continually
> > > abrasive....and continually destructive.
> > >
> > > Do I need to remind you of Piscinus's email after Caeca was in a car
> > > accident...
> > > Do I need to remind you of Maior's call for civil war?
> > > Do I have to remind you of Maior's Praetorship?
> > > Do I have to remind you of Maior's call to expel the monotheists?
> > >
> > > I think I do. Because at this point it is clear you are not suffering
> > from
> > > any medical issue or mental illness..so that leaves one other
> conclusion.
> > >
> > > Vale,
> > >
> > > Sulla
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 8:13 AM, L. Livia Plauta <
> livia.plauta@...
> > >wrote:
> > >
> > >> **
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Salve Sulla,
> > >> it was impossible to work with you, because the strategy of you and
> your
> > >> friends was to veto anything the magistrates tried in order to prevent
> > >> them
> > >> from getting any problem solved and to prepare the ground for your own
> > >> ascent to power.
> > >> That's why your party prevented the agreement to fix Nova Roma's IT
> > system
> > >>
> > >> then and later had to pay a good sum just to get a working voting
> > system,
> > >> which fixes about 10% of what the NR IT system used to do. (By the
> way,
> > >> I'm
> > >> really curious to see the new system implemented).
> > >>
> > >> But that's just one example: actually most of the crises were
> escalated
> > by
> > >>
> > >> you and your friends. It's not by chance that the decline started when
> > you
> > >>
> > >> were reinstated in the Senate.
> > >>
> > >> But now you have the power, so use it! let's see if your party can
> stop
> > >> the
> > >> decline of NR.
> > >> You have a chance to prove me, Lentulus and Scholastica wrong by
> > actually
> > >> contributing to the seamless working of NR. You don't even have to
> > >> overcome
> > >> the same obstacles that we did, because all the opposition has left
> NR,
> > >> and
> > >> those who stayed have no position of power.
> > >> You shouldn't have to worry about the way people judge the events of
> > last
> > >> year. After all, they are quite irrelevant for the present.
> > >>
> > >> Vale,
> > >> Livia
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >> From: "Robert" <robert.woolwine@...>
> > >> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> > >> Cc: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> > >> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 4:32 PM
> > >> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] No coup? O Rly?
> > >>
> > >> Ave!
> > >>
> > >> Again my response is brief. Once there is an intercessio, as alby
> > posted.
> > >> It's done and any attempt to continue to press on by getting marinus
> > >> appointed as dictator was a coup attempt. What stopped marinus from
> > >> accepting the position was that Caesar and I warned him.... Do it and
> > >> touch
> > >> nova roma's money and he would be held personally accountable and we
> > would
> > >>
> > >> sue him. At that point he decided to seek the advice of an attorney
> and
> > he
> > >>
> > >> was told the office of dictator is incompatible with Maine law! What
> > that
> > >> means is that he would be held personally liable!
> > >>
> > >> Again attempted coup attempt failed!
> > >>
> > >> Had the coup plotters consulted an attorney first before they planned
> > this
> > >>
> > >> attempt years ago, and this was planned for over a year...they could
> > have
> > >> helped nr by working with us instead of continually escalating each
> > crisis
> > >>
> > >> to a new tipping point!
> > >>
> > >> Vale
> > >>
> > >> Sulla
> > >>
> > >> Sent from my iPhone
> > >>
> > >> On Aug 19, 2011, at 6:36 AM, "L. Livia Plauta" <
> livia.plauta@...>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > L. Livia Plauta omnibus sal.
> > >> >
> > >> > I thank my friend Lentulus for sparing me the work to write on this
> > >> topic,
> > >> > by giving a detailed account of what happened and of our opinions on
> > the
> > >> > matter.
> > >> >
> > >> > I need to rewrite the following statement of his into correct
> English,
> > >> > though, because it might be misunderstood in its current form.
> > >> > Lentulus: "Only if we had Marinus as dictator!... I think we were
> > light
> > >> > years ahead today as compared to this dead frozen state in which NR
> > >> > stagnates without leadership... "
> > >> >
> > >> > Meaning: "If only we had Marinus as a dictator! ... I think we would
> > be
> > >> > light years ahead today compared to this dead frozen state in which
> NR
> > >> > stagnates without leadership ..."
> > >> >
> > >> > The only point where my opinion differs from Lentulus' is that I
> think
> > >> > Nova
> > >> > Roma can no longer be "saved" now, in the sense that as an
> > organization
> > >> it
> > >> > is no longer suitable to support the Religio Romana (while it might
> > >> still
> > >> > be
> > >> > a good place for reenactors who are not interested in Roman religon
> to
> > >> > meet).
> > >> >
> > >> > I also thank senator Sulla for forwarding all those posts from the
> > >> Senate
> > >> > list.
> > >> >
> > >> > There used to be a "senate seal" in place, that is, senators were
> not
> > >> > allowed to forward to the Main List posts form the Senate, or to
> post
> > >> > about
> > >> > the discussions going on there.
> > >> >
> > >> > So for me it's a surprise, for example, to see the post by
> Perusianus,
> > >> who
> > >> > usually doesn't post at all in the NR lists. Of course his
> assessment
> > of
> > >>
> > >> > the
> > >> > situation at the time was correct: most of the Italians had left NR
> > and
> > >> > were
> > >> > happy with their Pomerium organization.
> > >> >
> > >> > Since then even the last attempt by me and Vindex to keep some
> people
> > >> > interested in NR has failed.
> > >> >
> > >> > Quintilianus' assessment was also correct:
> > >> > "Shrinking membership, less and less people who pay taxes and vote.
> > >> > We are losing great parts of our Spanish, Italian and Latin American
> > >> > citizens. No activity in Britannia and very little in Gallia. Those
> > >> > who are in Sarmatia and other Eastern European countries are doing a
> > >> > splendid job that gives us hope, but they might also also soon lose
> > >> > hope, because of how we act and not act."
> > >> >
> > >> > Since then there was a mass secession of Sarmatian citizens, who
> keep
> > >> > pursuing their goal of building a temple to Jupiter, but now outside
> > >> Nova
> > >> > Roma.
> > >> >
> > >> > Optime valete,
> > >> > Livia
> > >> >
> > >> > > Lentulus omnibus sal.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > I don't want to waste my time on this discussion since I have
> > >> explained
> > >> > > my
> > >> > > point of view several times in this and other mailing lists
> already.
> > >> But
> > >> > > as one of the many citizens who applauded the idea of appointing
> > >> Marinus
> > >> > > as dictator, I feel it's my moral obligation to comment and to
> > repeat
> > >> > > again that what happened last year it was NOT a "coup", and it is
> > >> > > UTTERLY
> > >> > > RIDICULOUS, PRETENTIOUS, AND POMPOUS to call it a "coup". But, of
> > >> > > course,
> > >> > > all of us must have the right to use the word which fits his
> taste.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > I, Scholastica, Livia - and I know that many other citizens -
> don't
> > >> > > think
> > >> > > that an appointment of a constitutional dictator can be labeled as
> a
> > >> > > "coup", especially when it is done in a very serious crisis:
> exactly
> > >> in
> > >> > > a
> > >> > > situation for what it is invented by our Constitution as a means
> of
> > >> > > solution.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > I don't exactly know what Scholastica or Livia exactly think, but
> > for
> > >> me
> > >> > > what happened last year was an attempt to save Nova Roma from the
> > >> > > ongoing
> > >> > > chaos by appointing a dictator, a very legal, constitutional and
> > Roman
> > >> > > thing, and it was initially supported by all senators except 1-2,
> > >> later
> > >> > > still by the overwhelming majority. Almost everyone wanted the
> > >> dictator.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Was this dictator election a pre-organized political action? OF
> > COURSE
> > >>
> > >> > > it
> > >> > > was, it had to be, as all well-thought-out political actions are
> > >> > > pre-organized and conscious actions. I have presonally and
> > repeatedly
> > >> > > advocated for appointing a dictator in this very same mailing list
> > >> since
> > >> > > the beginning of the decline of NR. Many citizens trusted Marinus
> > and
> > >> I
> > >> > > still think that he was an example of leadership, and he as a
> senior
> > >> > > consular and esteemed senator could have introduced the necessary
> > >> > > reforms
> > >> > > into NR. For our detriment, and ever growing stagnation, he was
> not
> > >> > > appointed as dictator and NR is today where it is. Only if we had
> > >> > > Marinus
> > >> > > as dictator!... I think we were light years ahead today as
> compared
> > to
> > >> > > this dead frozen state in which NR stagnates without leadership...
> > >> > >
> > >> > > So, what some very colorfully call a "coup d'etate", is viewed by
> > many
> > >> > > others as a heroic attempt to save Nova Roma from the
> > >> > > internal warrings, stagnation and decline, using the
> constitutional
> > >> > > option
> > >> > > appointing a person trusted by most people as dictator.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Unfortunately, the organizers of this dictator election committed
> an
> > >> > > error - and this is why I must accept that the appointment was
> > indeed
> > >> > > not
> > >> > > regular, thus not completely lawful.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Why?
> > >> > >
> > >> > > The dictator election attempt was executed using legally
> > questionable
> > >> > > means, i.e. circumventing Albucius' consular veto by Consul
> > >> > > Quintilianus'
> > >> > > convening the senate jointly with the tribunes, which was (and
> still
> > >> is)
> > >> > > a
> > >> > > matter of debate whether it is legal or illegal, but the debate
> was
> > >> > > officially concluded by the rest of tribunes as illegal - though
> > there
> > >>
> > >> > > are
> > >> > > numerous theoretical objections. I, as a law respecting citizen,
> > >> > > accepted
> > >> > > the veto of the tribunes, and I still don't question the outcome:
> > the
> > >> > > dictator was vetoed. Cn. Marinus Censorius dictator-elect accepted
> > it
> > >> > > too.
> > >> > > No dictator entered office.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > That the dictator election failed it was a tragedy, because I
> firmly
> > >> > > beleive that Marinus as dictator could have stoped the stagnation
> of
> > >> > > Nova Roma, could have solved our many technical and organizational
> > >> > > problems including our IT problems immediately. Since then very
> few
> > >> > > improvements was made on NR, and today it seems clearer than ever
> > that
> > >> > > the need for the dictator was fully justified.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > As for the featuring of a dictatorial appointment as a "coup
> > d'etat",
> > >> it
> > >> > > is exaggerating, idiotic and pompous. What was, however, and still
> > is
> > >> a
> > >> > > proper question regarding those events it is whether the consul
> can
> > >> > > convene a senate session jointly by the tribunes or not. As it
> came
> > >> out
> > >> > > Nova Roma did not accept that legal approach, and thus the
> dictator
> > >> was
> > >> > > not deemed elected properly.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > So, accept that facts:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > 1) the dictator is a normal and legal solution in NR's
> constitution
> > >> for
> > >> > > handling crises;
> > >> > > 2) many Nova Romans and senators wanted that dictator to handle
> the
> > >> > > crisis
> > >> > > of last year;
> > >> > > 3) the intention and purpose with the dictator was legal since the
> > >> > > institution itself is a legal NR institution;
> > >> > > 4) the authority which was appointing it was legal since it's the
> > >> > > prerogative of the senate, and it was the senate which was
> electing
> > >> > > Marinus;
> > >> > > 5) HOWEVER, the way of convening the senate (a consul JOINTLY with
> > the
> > >> > > tribunes) was dubious, and some accepted it as a legal way of
> > >> convening
> > >> > > the senate, since our laws did not prohibit it, some thought that
> it
> > >> was
> > >> > > not provided by our laws as an option because our laws did not
> > >> > > explicitely
> > >> > > allow it.
> > >> > > 6) This way the whole business of appointing the dictator came to
> a
> > >> > > legalistic dispute where the other consul and the other tribunes
> > >> vetoed
> > >> > > it, and finally Marinus himself declined the position.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > End of the story.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Some are now convinced that Marinus as a dictator would have done
> > >> > > tyrannic
> > >> > > actions. Many others are convinced that Marinus would have been a
> > true
> > >> > > healer of our illnesses and a fair and just leader. Since Marinus
> > has
> > >> > > never been installed as dictator all what goes beyond the facts
> are
> > >> mere
> > >> > > fantasy. I personally am most convinced that Marinus would have
> > never
> > >> > > wanted confrontation with the law, consequently he as dictator
> would
> > >> > > have
> > >> > > worked for the benefit of all of NR.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > However, it is not the point of my message. The point of my
> message
> > is
> > >>
> > >> > > the
> > >> > > following:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > We can say that the dictator election was halted and the details
> of
> > >> the
> > >> > > procedure of convoking the session deemed irregular; BUT no one
> with
> > >> > > sane
> > >> > > judgement can call it a "coup d'etat" since the dictator,
> appointed
> > by
> > >>
> > >> > > the
> > >> > > senate, is a LEGAL, CONSTITUTIONAL and lawful institution in the
> NR
> > >> > > Constitution. It can not be called a "coup" what is
> constitutional.
> > >> All
> > >> > > legal criteria were satisfied, except the bit with the joint
> > >> > > consular-trinunicial convoking of the senate session, which is a
> > >> matter
> > >> > > of
> > >> > > law interpretation, since it is not explicitely forbidden.
> Moreover,
> > >> > > when
> > >> > > it was vetoed, the whole procedure was terminated, and the
> dictator
> > >> was
> > >> > > not installed: consequently no law was violated.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > The conclusion is this: neither Scholastica, nor Livia, nor I are
> > >> > > denying
> > >> > > that SOMETHING happaned last year. And I AM confirming that what
> > >> > > happened
> > >> > > then it was legally problematic. But what I am saying with
> > Scholatica
> > >> > > and
> > >> > > with others, it is that an office which is constitutional can not
> be
> > >> > > called a "coup".
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > I will not discuss this topic again: in the archieves you will
> find
> > my
> > >> > > full arguing among the old posts. I know that if you carefully
> think
> > >> on
> > >> > > the things what I have written, you will see that there is no
> > >> > > justification to call last year events as a "coup". So there can
> not
> > >> be
> > >> > > a
> > >> > > justified difference of opinion, unless one is driven purely
> > >> emotionally
> > >> > > against the whole issue. Where our opinions can, however, differ
> in
> > >> the
> > >> > > greatest extent it is whether the intention with the dictator was
> > good
> > >>
> > >> > > or
> > >> > > bad. But it is to decide for each citizen individually, since the
> > >> > > dictatorship, as it came out, never started on.
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85237 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: No coup? O Rly?
Oh, well, it's not as if I found the perspective of being expelled from NR
particularly frightening ...

> Ave,
>
> Oh Livia, you better watch it the Praetorian police are going to start
> knocking on your door.....gotta keep that paranoia going for ya! ;)
>
> Vale,
>
> Sulla
>
> On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 9:35 AM, Robert Woolwine
> <robert.woolwine@...>wrote:
>
>> Ave,
>>
>> Whatever makes you sleep better at night Livia.....you can wrap yourself
>> under that delusion.
>>
>> The truth is that I was willing to work with anyone...that is why when
>> the
>> blasphemy issue was being debated and private negotiations were
>> happening...I immediately jumped at the opportunity to resolve the issue.
>> What happened in that? OH YEAH..Piscinus tried to blackmail Cato and I.
>>
>> When I could have actually sued NR for Modianus removing me from the
>> Board
>> of directors list....I was asked to give NR more time to resolve the
>> issue...I did so (though I did not need to) and bent over backwards
>> compromising to reach an amicable solution.
>>
>> So, LIvia I think you have me confused with Piscinus again. I have been
>> compromising in just about every single area I can think of. It was TPTW
>> (the powers that were) that were continually uncompromising, continually
>> abrasive....and continually destructive.
>>
>> Do I need to remind you of Piscinus's email after Caeca was in a car
>> accident...
>> Do I need to remind you of Maior's call for civil war?
>> Do I have to remind you of Maior's Praetorship?
>> Do I have to remind you of Maior's call to expel the monotheists?
>>
>> I think I do. Because at this point it is clear you are not suffering
>> from
>> any medical issue or mental illness..so that leaves one other conclusion.
>>
>> Vale,
>>
>> Sulla
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 8:13 AM, L. Livia Plauta
>> <livia.plauta@...>wrote:
>>
>>> **
>>>
>>>
>>> Salve Sulla,
>>> it was impossible to work with you, because the strategy of you and your
>>> friends was to veto anything the magistrates tried in order to prevent
>>> them
>>> from getting any problem solved and to prepare the ground for your own
>>> ascent to power.
>>> That's why your party prevented the agreement to fix Nova Roma's IT
>>> system
>>>
>>> then and later had to pay a good sum just to get a working voting
>>> system,
>>> which fixes about 10% of what the NR IT system used to do. (By the way,
>>> I'm
>>> really curious to see the new system implemented).
>>>
>>> But that's just one example: actually most of the crises were escalated
>>> by
>>>
>>> you and your friends. It's not by chance that the decline started when
>>> you
>>>
>>> were reinstated in the Senate.
>>>
>>> But now you have the power, so use it! let's see if your party can stop
>>> the
>>> decline of NR.
>>> You have a chance to prove me, Lentulus and Scholastica wrong by
>>> actually
>>> contributing to the seamless working of NR. You don't even have to
>>> overcome
>>> the same obstacles that we did, because all the opposition has left NR,
>>> and
>>> those who stayed have no position of power.
>>> You shouldn't have to worry about the way people judge the events of
>>> last
>>> year. After all, they are quite irrelevant for the present.
>>>
>>> Vale,
>>> Livia
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Robert" <robert.woolwine@...>
>>> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
>>> Cc: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
>>> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 4:32 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] No coup? O Rly?
>>>
>>> Ave!
>>>
>>> Again my response is brief. Once there is an intercessio, as alby
>>> posted.
>>> It's done and any attempt to continue to press on by getting marinus
>>> appointed as dictator was a coup attempt. What stopped marinus from
>>> accepting the position was that Caesar and I warned him.... Do it and
>>> touch
>>> nova roma's money and he would be held personally accountable and we
>>> would
>>>
>>> sue him. At that point he decided to seek the advice of an attorney and
>>> he
>>>
>>> was told the office of dictator is incompatible with Maine law! What
>>> that
>>> means is that he would be held personally liable!
>>>
>>> Again attempted coup attempt failed!
>>>
>>> Had the coup plotters consulted an attorney first before they planned
>>> this
>>>
>>> attempt years ago, and this was planned for over a year...they could
>>> have
>>> helped nr by working with us instead of continually escalating each
>>> crisis
>>>
>>> to a new tipping point!
>>>
>>> Vale
>>>
>>> Sulla
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Aug 19, 2011, at 6:36 AM, "L. Livia Plauta" <livia.plauta@...>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > L. Livia Plauta omnibus sal.
>>> >
>>> > I thank my friend Lentulus for sparing me the work to write on this
>>> topic,
>>> > by giving a detailed account of what happened and of our opinions on
>>> > the
>>> > matter.
>>> >
>>> > I need to rewrite the following statement of his into correct English,
>>> > though, because it might be misunderstood in its current form.
>>> > Lentulus: "Only if we had Marinus as dictator!... I think we were
>>> > light
>>> > years ahead today as compared to this dead frozen state in which NR
>>> > stagnates without leadership... "
>>> >
>>> > Meaning: "If only we had Marinus as a dictator! ... I think we would
>>> > be
>>> > light years ahead today compared to this dead frozen state in which NR
>>> > stagnates without leadership ..."
>>> >
>>> > The only point where my opinion differs from Lentulus' is that I think
>>> > Nova
>>> > Roma can no longer be "saved" now, in the sense that as an
>>> > organization
>>> it
>>> > is no longer suitable to support the Religio Romana (while it might
>>> still
>>> > be
>>> > a good place for reenactors who are not interested in Roman religon to
>>> > meet).
>>> >
>>> > I also thank senator Sulla for forwarding all those posts from the
>>> Senate
>>> > list.
>>> >
>>> > There used to be a "senate seal" in place, that is, senators were not
>>> > allowed to forward to the Main List posts form the Senate, or to post
>>> > about
>>> > the discussions going on there.
>>> >
>>> > So for me it's a surprise, for example, to see the post by Perusianus,
>>> who
>>> > usually doesn't post at all in the NR lists. Of course his assessment
>>> > of
>>>
>>> > the
>>> > situation at the time was correct: most of the Italians had left NR
>>> > and
>>> > were
>>> > happy with their Pomerium organization.
>>> >
>>> > Since then even the last attempt by me and Vindex to keep some people
>>> > interested in NR has failed.
>>> >
>>> > Quintilianus' assessment was also correct:
>>> > "Shrinking membership, less and less people who pay taxes and vote.
>>> > We are losing great parts of our Spanish, Italian and Latin American
>>> > citizens. No activity in Britannia and very little in Gallia. Those
>>> > who are in Sarmatia and other Eastern European countries are doing a
>>> > splendid job that gives us hope, but they might also also soon lose
>>> > hope, because of how we act and not act."
>>> >
>>> > Since then there was a mass secession of Sarmatian citizens, who keep
>>> > pursuing their goal of building a temple to Jupiter, but now outside
>>> Nova
>>> > Roma.
>>> >
>>> > Optime valete,
>>> > Livia
>>> >
>>> > > Lentulus omnibus sal.
>>> > >
>>> > > I don't want to waste my time on this discussion since I have
>>> explained
>>> > > my
>>> > > point of view several times in this and other mailing lists already.
>>> But
>>> > > as one of the many citizens who applauded the idea of appointing
>>> Marinus
>>> > > as dictator, I feel it's my moral obligation to comment and to
>>> > > repeat
>>> > > again that what happened last year it was NOT a "coup", and it is
>>> > > UTTERLY
>>> > > RIDICULOUS, PRETENTIOUS, AND POMPOUS to call it a "coup". But, of
>>> > > course,
>>> > > all of us must have the right to use the word which fits his taste.
>>> > >
>>> > > I, Scholastica, Livia - and I know that many other citizens - don't
>>> > > think
>>> > > that an appointment of a constitutional dictator can be labeled as a
>>> > > "coup", especially when it is done in a very serious crisis: exactly
>>> in
>>> > > a
>>> > > situation for what it is invented by our Constitution as a means of
>>> > > solution.
>>> > >
>>> > > I don't exactly know what Scholastica or Livia exactly think, but
>>> > > for
>>> me
>>> > > what happened last year was an attempt to save Nova Roma from the
>>> > > ongoing
>>> > > chaos by appointing a dictator, a very legal, constitutional and
>>> > > Roman
>>> > > thing, and it was initially supported by all senators except 1-2,
>>> later
>>> > > still by the overwhelming majority. Almost everyone wanted the
>>> dictator.
>>> > >
>>> > > Was this dictator election a pre-organized political action? OF
>>> > > COURSE
>>>
>>> > > it
>>> > > was, it had to be, as all well-thought-out political actions are
>>> > > pre-organized and conscious actions. I have presonally and
>>> > > repeatedly
>>> > > advocated for appointing a dictator in this very same mailing list
>>> since
>>> > > the beginning of the decline of NR. Many citizens trusted Marinus
>>> > > and
>>> I
>>> > > still think that he was an example of leadership, and he as a senior
>>> > > consular and esteemed senator could have introduced the necessary
>>> > > reforms
>>> > > into NR. For our detriment, and ever growing stagnation, he was not
>>> > > appointed as dictator and NR is today where it is. Only if we had
>>> > > Marinus
>>> > > as dictator!... I think we were light years ahead today as compared
>>> > > to
>>> > > this dead frozen state in which NR stagnates without leadership...
>>> > >
>>> > > So, what some very colorfully call a "coup d'etate", is viewed by
>>> > > many
>>> > > others as a heroic attempt to save Nova Roma from the
>>> > > internal warrings, stagnation and decline, using the constitutional
>>> > > option
>>> > > appointing a person trusted by most people as dictator.
>>> > >
>>> > > Unfortunately, the organizers of this dictator election committed an
>>> > > error - and this is why I must accept that the appointment was
>>> > > indeed
>>> > > not
>>> > > regular, thus not completely lawful.
>>> > >
>>> > > Why?
>>> > >
>>> > > The dictator election attempt was executed using legally
>>> > > questionable
>>> > > means, i.e. circumventing Albucius' consular veto by Consul
>>> > > Quintilianus'
>>> > > convening the senate jointly with the tribunes, which was (and still
>>> is)
>>> > > a
>>> > > matter of debate whether it is legal or illegal, but the debate was
>>> > > officially concluded by the rest of tribunes as illegal - though
>>> > > there
>>>
>>> > > are
>>> > > numerous theoretical objections. I, as a law respecting citizen,
>>> > > accepted
>>> > > the veto of the tribunes, and I still don't question the outcome:
>>> > > the
>>> > > dictator was vetoed. Cn. Marinus Censorius dictator-elect accepted
>>> > > it
>>> > > too.
>>> > > No dictator entered office.
>>> > >
>>> > > That the dictator election failed it was a tragedy, because I firmly
>>> > > beleive that Marinus as dictator could have stoped the stagnation of
>>> > > Nova Roma, could have solved our many technical and organizational
>>> > > problems including our IT problems immediately. Since then very few
>>> > > improvements was made on NR, and today it seems clearer than ever
>>> > > that
>>> > > the need for the dictator was fully justified.
>>> > >
>>> > > As for the featuring of a dictatorial appointment as a "coup
>>> > > d'etat",
>>> it
>>> > > is exaggerating, idiotic and pompous. What was, however, and still
>>> > > is
>>> a
>>> > > proper question regarding those events it is whether the consul can
>>> > > convene a senate session jointly by the tribunes or not. As it came
>>> out
>>> > > Nova Roma did not accept that legal approach, and thus the dictator
>>> was
>>> > > not deemed elected properly.
>>> > >
>>> > > So, accept that facts:
>>> > >
>>> > > 1) the dictator is a normal and legal solution in NR's constitution
>>> for
>>> > > handling crises;
>>> > > 2) many Nova Romans and senators wanted that dictator to handle the
>>> > > crisis
>>> > > of last year;
>>> > > 3) the intention and purpose with the dictator was legal since the
>>> > > institution itself is a legal NR institution;
>>> > > 4) the authority which was appointing it was legal since it's the
>>> > > prerogative of the senate, and it was the senate which was electing
>>> > > Marinus;
>>> > > 5) HOWEVER, the way of convening the senate (a consul JOINTLY with
>>> > > the
>>> > > tribunes) was dubious, and some accepted it as a legal way of
>>> convening
>>> > > the senate, since our laws did not prohibit it, some thought that it
>>> was
>>> > > not provided by our laws as an option because our laws did not
>>> > > explicitely
>>> > > allow it.
>>> > > 6) This way the whole business of appointing the dictator came to a
>>> > > legalistic dispute where the other consul and the other tribunes
>>> vetoed
>>> > > it, and finally Marinus himself declined the position.
>>> > >
>>> > > End of the story.
>>> > >
>>> > > Some are now convinced that Marinus as a dictator would have done
>>> > > tyrannic
>>> > > actions. Many others are convinced that Marinus would have been a
>>> > > true
>>> > > healer of our illnesses and a fair and just leader. Since Marinus
>>> > > has
>>> > > never been installed as dictator all what goes beyond the facts are
>>> mere
>>> > > fantasy. I personally am most convinced that Marinus would have
>>> > > never
>>> > > wanted confrontation with the law, consequently he as dictator would
>>> > > have
>>> > > worked for the benefit of all of NR.
>>> > >
>>> > > However, it is not the point of my message. The point of my message
>>> > > is
>>>
>>> > > the
>>> > > following:
>>> > >
>>> > > We can say that the dictator election was halted and the details of
>>> the
>>> > > procedure of convoking the session deemed irregular; BUT no one with
>>> > > sane
>>> > > judgement can call it a "coup d'etat" since the dictator, appointed
>>> > > by
>>>
>>> > > the
>>> > > senate, is a LEGAL, CONSTITUTIONAL and lawful institution in the NR
>>> > > Constitution. It can not be called a "coup" what is constitutional.
>>> All
>>> > > legal criteria were satisfied, except the bit with the joint
>>> > > consular-trinunicial convoking of the senate session, which is a
>>> matter
>>> > > of
>>> > > law interpretation, since it is not explicitely forbidden. Moreover,
>>> > > when
>>> > > it was vetoed, the whole procedure was terminated, and the dictator
>>> was
>>> > > not installed: consequently no law was violated.
>>> > >
>>> > > The conclusion is this: neither Scholastica, nor Livia, nor I are
>>> > > denying
>>> > > that SOMETHING happaned last year. And I AM confirming that what
>>> > > happened
>>> > > then it was legally problematic. But what I am saying with
>>> > > Scholatica
>>> > > and
>>> > > with others, it is that an office which is constitutional can not be
>>> > > called a "coup".
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > I will not discuss this topic again: in the archieves you will find
>>> > > my
>>> > > full arguing among the old posts. I know that if you carefully think
>>> on
>>> > > the things what I have written, you will see that there is no
>>> > > justification to call last year events as a "coup". So there can not
>>> be
>>> > > a
>>> > > justified difference of opinion, unless one is driven purely
>>> emotionally
>>> > > against the whole issue. Where our opinions can, however, differ in
>>> the
>>> > > greatest extent it is whether the intention with the dictator was
>>> > > good
>>>
>>> > > or
>>> > > bad. But it is to decide for each citizen individually, since the
>>> > > dictatorship, as it came out, never started on.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85238 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: No coup? O Rly?
Oh sure you do...that's why you keep harping on the fact of your fear that
your free speech is going to be taken away...unless of course if you were
lying all this time.

On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 10:00 AM, L. Livia Plauta <livia.plauta@...>wrote:

>
> Oh, well, it's not as if I found the perspective of being expelled from NR
> particularly frightening ...
>
> > Ave,
> >
> > Oh Livia, you better watch it the Praetorian police are going to start
> > knocking on your door.....gotta keep that paranoia going for ya! ;)
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Sulla
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 9:35 AM, Robert Woolwine
> > <robert.woolwine@...>wrote:
> >
> >> Ave,
> >>
> >> Whatever makes you sleep better at night Livia.....you can wrap yourself
> >> under that delusion.
> >>
> >> The truth is that I was willing to work with anyone...that is why when
> >> the
> >> blasphemy issue was being debated and private negotiations were
> >> happening...I immediately jumped at the opportunity to resolve the
> issue.
> >> What happened in that? OH YEAH..Piscinus tried to blackmail Cato and I.
> >>
> >> When I could have actually sued NR for Modianus removing me from the
> >> Board
> >> of directors list....I was asked to give NR more time to resolve the
> >> issue...I did so (though I did not need to) and bent over backwards
> >> compromising to reach an amicable solution.
> >>
> >> So, LIvia I think you have me confused with Piscinus again. I have been
> >> compromising in just about every single area I can think of. It was
> TPTW
> >> (the powers that were) that were continually uncompromising, continually
> >> abrasive....and continually destructive.
> >>
> >> Do I need to remind you of Piscinus's email after Caeca was in a car
> >> accident...
> >> Do I need to remind you of Maior's call for civil war?
> >> Do I have to remind you of Maior's Praetorship?
> >> Do I have to remind you of Maior's call to expel the monotheists?
> >>
> >> I think I do. Because at this point it is clear you are not suffering
> >> from
> >> any medical issue or mental illness..so that leaves one other
> conclusion.
> >>
> >> Vale,
> >>
> >> Sulla
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 8:13 AM, L. Livia Plauta
> >> <livia.plauta@...>wrote:
> >>
> >>> **
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Salve Sulla,
> >>> it was impossible to work with you, because the strategy of you and
> your
> >>> friends was to veto anything the magistrates tried in order to prevent
> >>> them
> >>> from getting any problem solved and to prepare the ground for your own
> >>> ascent to power.
> >>> That's why your party prevented the agreement to fix Nova Roma's IT
> >>> system
> >>>
> >>> then and later had to pay a good sum just to get a working voting
> >>> system,
> >>> which fixes about 10% of what the NR IT system used to do. (By the way,
> >>> I'm
> >>> really curious to see the new system implemented).
> >>>
> >>> But that's just one example: actually most of the crises were escalated
> >>> by
> >>>
> >>> you and your friends. It's not by chance that the decline started when
> >>> you
> >>>
> >>> were reinstated in the Senate.
> >>>
> >>> But now you have the power, so use it! let's see if your party can stop
> >>> the
> >>> decline of NR.
> >>> You have a chance to prove me, Lentulus and Scholastica wrong by
> >>> actually
> >>> contributing to the seamless working of NR. You don't even have to
> >>> overcome
> >>> the same obstacles that we did, because all the opposition has left NR,
> >>> and
> >>> those who stayed have no position of power.
> >>> You shouldn't have to worry about the way people judge the events of
> >>> last
> >>> year. After all, they are quite irrelevant for the present.
> >>>
> >>> Vale,
> >>> Livia
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Robert" <robert.woolwine@...>
> >>> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> >>> Cc: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> >>> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 4:32 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] No coup? O Rly?
> >>>
> >>> Ave!
> >>>
> >>> Again my response is brief. Once there is an intercessio, as alby
> >>> posted.
> >>> It's done and any attempt to continue to press on by getting marinus
> >>> appointed as dictator was a coup attempt. What stopped marinus from
> >>> accepting the position was that Caesar and I warned him.... Do it and
> >>> touch
> >>> nova roma's money and he would be held personally accountable and we
> >>> would
> >>>
> >>> sue him. At that point he decided to seek the advice of an attorney and
> >>> he
> >>>
> >>> was told the office of dictator is incompatible with Maine law! What
> >>> that
> >>> means is that he would be held personally liable!
> >>>
> >>> Again attempted coup attempt failed!
> >>>
> >>> Had the coup plotters consulted an attorney first before they planned
> >>> this
> >>>
> >>> attempt years ago, and this was planned for over a year...they could
> >>> have
> >>> helped nr by working with us instead of continually escalating each
> >>> crisis
> >>>
> >>> to a new tipping point!
> >>>
> >>> Vale
> >>>
> >>> Sulla
> >>>
> >>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>
> >>> On Aug 19, 2011, at 6:36 AM, "L. Livia Plauta" <livia.plauta@...
> >
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> > L. Livia Plauta omnibus sal.
> >>> >
> >>> > I thank my friend Lentulus for sparing me the work to write on this
> >>> topic,
> >>> > by giving a detailed account of what happened and of our opinions on
> >>> > the
> >>> > matter.
> >>> >
> >>> > I need to rewrite the following statement of his into correct
> English,
> >>> > though, because it might be misunderstood in its current form.
> >>> > Lentulus: "Only if we had Marinus as dictator!... I think we were
> >>> > light
> >>> > years ahead today as compared to this dead frozen state in which NR
> >>> > stagnates without leadership... "
> >>> >
> >>> > Meaning: "If only we had Marinus as a dictator! ... I think we would
> >>> > be
> >>> > light years ahead today compared to this dead frozen state in which
> NR
> >>> > stagnates without leadership ..."
> >>> >
> >>> > The only point where my opinion differs from Lentulus' is that I
> think
> >>> > Nova
> >>> > Roma can no longer be "saved" now, in the sense that as an
> >>> > organization
> >>> it
> >>> > is no longer suitable to support the Religio Romana (while it might
> >>> still
> >>> > be
> >>> > a good place for reenactors who are not interested in Roman religon
> to
> >>> > meet).
> >>> >
> >>> > I also thank senator Sulla for forwarding all those posts from the
> >>> Senate
> >>> > list.
> >>> >
> >>> > There used to be a "senate seal" in place, that is, senators were not
> >>> > allowed to forward to the Main List posts form the Senate, or to post
> >>> > about
> >>> > the discussions going on there.
> >>> >
> >>> > So for me it's a surprise, for example, to see the post by
> Perusianus,
> >>> who
> >>> > usually doesn't post at all in the NR lists. Of course his assessment
> >>> > of
> >>>
> >>> > the
> >>> > situation at the time was correct: most of the Italians had left NR
> >>> > and
> >>> > were
> >>> > happy with their Pomerium organization.
> >>> >
> >>> > Since then even the last attempt by me and Vindex to keep some people
> >>> > interested in NR has failed.
> >>> >
> >>> > Quintilianus' assessment was also correct:
> >>> > "Shrinking membership, less and less people who pay taxes and vote.
> >>> > We are losing great parts of our Spanish, Italian and Latin American
> >>> > citizens. No activity in Britannia and very little in Gallia. Those
> >>> > who are in Sarmatia and other Eastern European countries are doing a
> >>> > splendid job that gives us hope, but they might also also soon lose
> >>> > hope, because of how we act and not act."
> >>> >
> >>> > Since then there was a mass secession of Sarmatian citizens, who keep
> >>> > pursuing their goal of building a temple to Jupiter, but now outside
> >>> Nova
> >>> > Roma.
> >>> >
> >>> > Optime valete,
> >>> > Livia
> >>> >
> >>> > > Lentulus omnibus sal.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > I don't want to waste my time on this discussion since I have
> >>> explained
> >>> > > my
> >>> > > point of view several times in this and other mailing lists
> already.
> >>> But
> >>> > > as one of the many citizens who applauded the idea of appointing
> >>> Marinus
> >>> > > as dictator, I feel it's my moral obligation to comment and to
> >>> > > repeat
> >>> > > again that what happened last year it was NOT a "coup", and it is
> >>> > > UTTERLY
> >>> > > RIDICULOUS, PRETENTIOUS, AND POMPOUS to call it a "coup". But, of
> >>> > > course,
> >>> > > all of us must have the right to use the word which fits his taste.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > I, Scholastica, Livia - and I know that many other citizens - don't
> >>> > > think
> >>> > > that an appointment of a constitutional dictator can be labeled as
> a
> >>> > > "coup", especially when it is done in a very serious crisis:
> exactly
> >>> in
> >>> > > a
> >>> > > situation for what it is invented by our Constitution as a means of
> >>> > > solution.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > I don't exactly know what Scholastica or Livia exactly think, but
> >>> > > for
> >>> me
> >>> > > what happened last year was an attempt to save Nova Roma from the
> >>> > > ongoing
> >>> > > chaos by appointing a dictator, a very legal, constitutional and
> >>> > > Roman
> >>> > > thing, and it was initially supported by all senators except 1-2,
> >>> later
> >>> > > still by the overwhelming majority. Almost everyone wanted the
> >>> dictator.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Was this dictator election a pre-organized political action? OF
> >>> > > COURSE
> >>>
> >>> > > it
> >>> > > was, it had to be, as all well-thought-out political actions are
> >>> > > pre-organized and conscious actions. I have presonally and
> >>> > > repeatedly
> >>> > > advocated for appointing a dictator in this very same mailing list
> >>> since
> >>> > > the beginning of the decline of NR. Many citizens trusted Marinus
> >>> > > and
> >>> I
> >>> > > still think that he was an example of leadership, and he as a
> senior
> >>> > > consular and esteemed senator could have introduced the necessary
> >>> > > reforms
> >>> > > into NR. For our detriment, and ever growing stagnation, he was not
> >>> > > appointed as dictator and NR is today where it is. Only if we had
> >>> > > Marinus
> >>> > > as dictator!... I think we were light years ahead today as compared
> >>> > > to
> >>> > > this dead frozen state in which NR stagnates without leadership...
> >>> > >
> >>> > > So, what some very colorfully call a "coup d'etate", is viewed by
> >>> > > many
> >>> > > others as a heroic attempt to save Nova Roma from the
> >>> > > internal warrings, stagnation and decline, using the constitutional
> >>> > > option
> >>> > > appointing a person trusted by most people as dictator.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Unfortunately, the organizers of this dictator election committed
> an
> >>> > > error - and this is why I must accept that the appointment was
> >>> > > indeed
> >>> > > not
> >>> > > regular, thus not completely lawful.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Why?
> >>> > >
> >>> > > The dictator election attempt was executed using legally
> >>> > > questionable
> >>> > > means, i.e. circumventing Albucius' consular veto by Consul
> >>> > > Quintilianus'
> >>> > > convening the senate jointly with the tribunes, which was (and
> still
> >>> is)
> >>> > > a
> >>> > > matter of debate whether it is legal or illegal, but the debate was
> >>> > > officially concluded by the rest of tribunes as illegal - though
> >>> > > there
> >>>
> >>> > > are
> >>> > > numerous theoretical objections. I, as a law respecting citizen,
> >>> > > accepted
> >>> > > the veto of the tribunes, and I still don't question the outcome:
> >>> > > the
> >>> > > dictator was vetoed. Cn. Marinus Censorius dictator-elect accepted
> >>> > > it
> >>> > > too.
> >>> > > No dictator entered office.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > That the dictator election failed it was a tragedy, because I
> firmly
> >>> > > beleive that Marinus as dictator could have stoped the stagnation
> of
> >>> > > Nova Roma, could have solved our many technical and organizational
> >>> > > problems including our IT problems immediately. Since then very few
> >>> > > improvements was made on NR, and today it seems clearer than ever
> >>> > > that
> >>> > > the need for the dictator was fully justified.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > As for the featuring of a dictatorial appointment as a "coup
> >>> > > d'etat",
> >>> it
> >>> > > is exaggerating, idiotic and pompous. What was, however, and still
> >>> > > is
> >>> a
> >>> > > proper question regarding those events it is whether the consul can
> >>> > > convene a senate session jointly by the tribunes or not. As it came
> >>> out
> >>> > > Nova Roma did not accept that legal approach, and thus the dictator
> >>> was
> >>> > > not deemed elected properly.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > So, accept that facts:
> >>> > >
> >>> > > 1) the dictator is a normal and legal solution in NR's constitution
> >>> for
> >>> > > handling crises;
> >>> > > 2) many Nova Romans and senators wanted that dictator to handle the
> >>> > > crisis
> >>> > > of last year;
> >>> > > 3) the intention and purpose with the dictator was legal since the
> >>> > > institution itself is a legal NR institution;
> >>> > > 4) the authority which was appointing it was legal since it's the
> >>> > > prerogative of the senate, and it was the senate which was electing
> >>> > > Marinus;
> >>> > > 5) HOWEVER, the way of convening the senate (a consul JOINTLY with
> >>> > > the
> >>> > > tribunes) was dubious, and some accepted it as a legal way of
> >>> convening
> >>> > > the senate, since our laws did not prohibit it, some thought that
> it
> >>> was
> >>> > > not provided by our laws as an option because our laws did not
> >>> > > explicitely
> >>> > > allow it.
> >>> > > 6) This way the whole business of appointing the dictator came to a
> >>> > > legalistic dispute where the other consul and the other tribunes
> >>> vetoed
> >>> > > it, and finally Marinus himself declined the position.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > End of the story.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Some are now convinced that Marinus as a dictator would have done
> >>> > > tyrannic
> >>> > > actions. Many others are convinced that Marinus would have been a
> >>> > > true
> >>> > > healer of our illnesses and a fair and just leader. Since Marinus
> >>> > > has
> >>> > > never been installed as dictator all what goes beyond the facts are
> >>> mere
> >>> > > fantasy. I personally am most convinced that Marinus would have
> >>> > > never
> >>> > > wanted confrontation with the law, consequently he as dictator
> would
> >>> > > have
> >>> > > worked for the benefit of all of NR.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > However, it is not the point of my message. The point of my message
> >>> > > is
> >>>
> >>> > > the
> >>> > > following:
> >>> > >
> >>> > > We can say that the dictator election was halted and the details of
> >>> the
> >>> > > procedure of convoking the session deemed irregular; BUT no one
> with
> >>> > > sane
> >>> > > judgement can call it a "coup d'etat" since the dictator, appointed
> >>> > > by
> >>>
> >>> > > the
> >>> > > senate, is a LEGAL, CONSTITUTIONAL and lawful institution in the NR
> >>> > > Constitution. It can not be called a "coup" what is constitutional.
> >>> All
> >>> > > legal criteria were satisfied, except the bit with the joint
> >>> > > consular-trinunicial convoking of the senate session, which is a
> >>> matter
> >>> > > of
> >>> > > law interpretation, since it is not explicitely forbidden.
> Moreover,
> >>> > > when
> >>> > > it was vetoed, the whole procedure was terminated, and the dictator
> >>> was
> >>> > > not installed: consequently no law was violated.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > The conclusion is this: neither Scholastica, nor Livia, nor I are
> >>> > > denying
> >>> > > that SOMETHING happaned last year. And I AM confirming that what
> >>> > > happened
> >>> > > then it was legally problematic. But what I am saying with
> >>> > > Scholatica
> >>> > > and
> >>> > > with others, it is that an office which is constitutional can not
> be
> >>> > > called a "coup".
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > > I will not discuss this topic again: in the archieves you will find
> >>> > > my
> >>> > > full arguing among the old posts. I know that if you carefully
> think
> >>> on
> >>> > > the things what I have written, you will see that there is no
> >>> > > justification to call last year events as a "coup". So there can
> not
> >>> be
> >>> > > a
> >>> > > justified difference of opinion, unless one is driven purely
> >>> emotionally
> >>> > > against the whole issue. Where our opinions can, however, differ in
> >>> the
> >>> > > greatest extent it is whether the intention with the dictator was
> >>> > > good
> >>>
> >>> > > or
> >>> > > bad. But it is to decide for each citizen individually, since the
> >>> > > dictatorship, as it came out, never started on.
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85239 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: Roman Virtues: Auctoritas
Iulia Voluso Petronio Pontifici Maximo Quiritibusque S.P.D.

Voluse, I am very impressed by your scholarly response; concepts and opinions that would be well received in any grad program - respected in any doctorate program – a reply that nicely discusses the philosophy of virtues. Lots of good information, that incorporates good solid teaching and reflects much of my philosophy regarding virtues, both at the time of the Republic and in the present day - it is good to see you back amongst us!

Petroni Pontifex Maxime, gratias, as always you astutely, and with utmost clarity, demonstrate ancient Roman thought on a particular matter, in which I agree.
For those considering entering NR politics, I suggest they reflect upon your statement:
"The three virtues in politics were:
Senate = auctoritas.
Magistrates = potestas.(with imperium or not).
People = libertas"

Vobis gratias et valete ambo

Valete optime,

Julia
Nashvillae scribebat
a.d. XIV Kal. Sep. ‡ P. Ullerio C. Equitio cos. ‡ MMDCCLXIV

Est enim amicitia nihil aliud nisi omnium divinarum humanarumque rerum cum benevolenta et caritate consensio, qua quidem haud scio an excepta spientia nil quicquam melius homini sit a dis immortalibus datum ~ Cicero

http://aedesvenusgenetrix.blogspot.com/
http://www.thelastenchantment.com/
http://www.meetup.com/Mystic-Sanctuary-Of-Fortuna-Primigenia/
http://www.meetup.com/Temple-Of-Venus/
Securum in tenebris me facit esse Venus


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@...> wrote:
>
> C. Petronius C. Valeriano salutem,
>
> >>> The NR website describes *auctoritas *as a "personal virtue," meaning that it is, by definition, a virtue attributed to an individual person, not to the State or similar bodies. Personally, I suspect ancient Romans might recognize something like *auctoritas *accruing to a body like the Collegium Pontificum or Collegium Augurum, but only as a reflection of the standing of its constituent members, not as the body itself. But it is generally a quality of *individuals.*<<<
>
> Auctoritas was the virtue of the Senate, in ancient Rome. Yes, this is also a personal virtue, but Romans put this virtue on the senate first.
>
> Auctoritas is not imperium. It seems when I read the most of the messages written than many think auctoritas as authority, but it was not. Unless it was not its first meaning.
>
> Auctoritas was not questionable, because questionning the auctoritas of a body or of a magistrate was the beginning of the trouble. You only can make a trial against a magistrate after he left his auctoritas, not when he was under the protection of his auctoritas. Caesar, for example, questionned the auctoritas of the Senate when he started his civil war.
>
> The three virtues in politics were:
> Senate = auctoritas.
> Magistrates = potestas.(with imperium or not).
> People = libertas.
>
> Optime vale.
>
> C. Petronius Dexter
> Arcoiali scribebat
> a. d. XIV Kalendas Septembres P. Vllerio C. Equitio coss.
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85240 From: Timothy or Stephen Gallagher Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: IT costs and off the self software.
Salvete

The reason I voted NOT to spend the amount suggested was that it was $10,000 USD.
That was nearly HALF of the funds NR has in the bank.
While it would be nice to have custom build IT stuff for NR, Off the self software, if and when available should be used.

When I bought and paid for our first year or two of Quicken online it gave us the ability to have a CFO
and other financial officers anywhere in the world. It allowed Equestria Iunia Laeca to bring order to our finances.
and to use professional services at a fraction of the cost of a paid CFO.

It cost about $400 per year. Off the self is not just cheaper in some ways its just better.
The election service I recommended and which the Senate approved is another example of an IT solution that
did not cost thousands of dollar.

We received thousand and thousand of free IT service from Octavius over the years.
There was no way we could have afforded what it really cost him to service our account
and to develop the IT structure he created.

Unless we find a sugar daddy or mommy for Nova Roma we never will.

Valete

Ti. Galerius Paulinus





To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
From: livia.plauta@...
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 17:13:01 +0200
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] No coup? O Rly?






Salve Sulla,
it was impossible to work with you, because the strategy of you and your
friends was to veto anything the magistrates tried in order to prevent them
from getting any problem solved and to prepare the ground for your own
ascent to power.
That's why your party prevented the agreement to fix Nova Roma's IT system
then and later had to pay a good sum just to get a working voting system,
which fixes about 10% of what the NR IT system used to do. (By the way, I'm
really curious to see the new system implemented).

But that's just one example: actually most of the crises were escalated by
you and your friends. It's not by chance that the decline started when you
were reinstated in the Senate.

But now you have the power, so use it! let's see if your party can stop the
decline of NR.
You have a chance to prove me, Lentulus and Scholastica wrong by actually
contributing to the seamless working of NR. You don't even have to overcome
the same obstacles that we did, because all the opposition has left NR, and
those who stayed have no position of power.
You shouldn't have to worry about the way people judge the events of last
year. After all, they are quite irrelevant for the present.

Vale,
Livia

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert" <robert.woolwine@...>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] No coup? O Rly?

Ave!

Again my response is brief. Once there is an intercessio, as alby posted.
It's done and any attempt to continue to press on by getting marinus
appointed as dictator was a coup attempt. What stopped marinus from
accepting the position was that Caesar and I warned him.... Do it and touch
nova roma's money and he would be held personally accountable and we would
sue him. At that point he decided to seek the advice of an attorney and he
was told the office of dictator is incompatible with Maine law! What that
means is that he would be held personally liable!

Again attempted coup attempt failed!

Had the coup plotters consulted an attorney first before they planned this
attempt years ago, and this was planned for over a year...they could have
helped nr by working with us instead of continually escalating each crisis
to a new tipping point!

Vale

Sulla

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 19, 2011, at 6:36 AM, "L. Livia Plauta" <livia.plauta@...>
wrote:

> L. Livia Plauta omnibus sal.
>
> I thank my friend Lentulus for sparing me the work to write on this topic,
> by giving a detailed account of what happened and of our opinions on the
> matter.
>
> I need to rewrite the following statement of his into correct English,
> though, because it might be misunderstood in its current form.
> Lentulus: "Only if we had Marinus as dictator!... I think we were light
> years ahead today as compared to this dead frozen state in which NR
> stagnates without leadership... "
>
> Meaning: "If only we had Marinus as a dictator! ... I think we would be
> light years ahead today compared to this dead frozen state in which NR
> stagnates without leadership ..."
>
> The only point where my opinion differs from Lentulus' is that I think
> Nova
> Roma can no longer be "saved" now, in the sense that as an organization it
> is no longer suitable to support the Religio Romana (while it might still
> be
> a good place for reenactors who are not interested in Roman religon to
> meet).
>
> I also thank senator Sulla for forwarding all those posts from the Senate
> list.
>
> There used to be a "senate seal" in place, that is, senators were not
> allowed to forward to the Main List posts form the Senate, or to post
> about
> the discussions going on there.
>
> So for me it's a surprise, for example, to see the post by Perusianus, who
> usually doesn't post at all in the NR lists. Of course his assessment of
> the
> situation at the time was correct: most of the Italians had left NR and
> were
> happy with their Pomerium organization.
>
> Since then even the last attempt by me and Vindex to keep some people
> interested in NR has failed.
>
> Quintilianus' assessment was also correct:
> "Shrinking membership, less and less people who pay taxes and vote.
> We are losing great parts of our Spanish, Italian and Latin American
> citizens. No activity in Britannia and very little in Gallia. Those
> who are in Sarmatia and other Eastern European countries are doing a
> splendid job that gives us hope, but they might also also soon lose
> hope, because of how we act and not act."
>
> Since then there was a mass secession of Sarmatian citizens, who keep
> pursuing their goal of building a temple to Jupiter, but now outside Nova
> Roma.
>
> Optime valete,
> Livia
>
> > Lentulus omnibus sal.
> >
> > I don't want to waste my time on this discussion since I have explained
> > my
> > point of view several times in this and other mailing lists already. But
> > as one of the many citizens who applauded the idea of appointing Marinus
> > as dictator, I feel it's my moral obligation to comment and to repeat
> > again that what happened last year it was NOT a "coup", and it is
> > UTTERLY
> > RIDICULOUS, PRETENTIOUS, AND POMPOUS to call it a "coup". But, of
> > course,
> > all of us must have the right to use the word which fits his taste.
> >
> > I, Scholastica, Livia - and I know that many other citizens - don't
> > think
> > that an appointment of a constitutional dictator can be labeled as a
> > "coup", especially when it is done in a very serious crisis: exactly in
> > a
> > situation for what it is invented by our Constitution as a means of
> > solution.
> >
> > I don't exactly know what Scholastica or Livia exactly think, but for me
> > what happened last year was an attempt to save Nova Roma from the
> > ongoing
> > chaos by appointing a dictator, a very legal, constitutional and Roman
> > thing, and it was initially supported by all senators except 1-2, later
> > still by the overwhelming majority. Almost everyone wanted the dictator.
> >
> > Was this dictator election a pre-organized political action? OF COURSE
> > it
> > was, it had to be, as all well-thought-out political actions are
> > pre-organized and conscious actions. I have presonally and repeatedly
> > advocated for appointing a dictator in this very same mailing list since
> > the beginning of the decline of NR. Many citizens trusted Marinus and I
> > still think that he was an example of leadership, and he as a senior
> > consular and esteemed senator could have introduced the necessary
> > reforms
> > into NR. For our detriment, and ever growing stagnation, he was not
> > appointed as dictator and NR is today where it is. Only if we had
> > Marinus
> > as dictator!... I think we were light years ahead today as compared to
> > this dead frozen state in which NR stagnates without leadership...
> >
> > So, what some very colorfully call a "coup d'etate", is viewed by many
> > others as a heroic attempt to save Nova Roma from the
> > internal warrings, stagnation and decline, using the constitutional
> > option
> > appointing a person trusted by most people as dictator.
> >
> > Unfortunately, the organizers of this dictator election committed an
> > error - and this is why I must accept that the appointment was indeed
> > not
> > regular, thus not completely lawful.
> >
> > Why?
> >
> > The dictator election attempt was executed using legally questionable
> > means, i.e. circumventing Albucius' consular veto by Consul
> > Quintilianus'
> > convening the senate jointly with the tribunes, which was (and still is)
> > a
> > matter of debate whether it is legal or illegal, but the debate was
> > officially concluded by the rest of tribunes as illegal - though there
> > are
> > numerous theoretical objections. I, as a law respecting citizen,
> > accepted
> > the veto of the tribunes, and I still don't question the outcome: the
> > dictator was vetoed. Cn. Marinus Censorius dictator-elect accepted it
> > too.
> > No dictator entered office.
> >
> > That the dictator election failed it was a tragedy, because I firmly
> > beleive that Marinus as dictator could have stoped the stagnation of
> > Nova Roma, could have solved our many technical and organizational
> > problems including our IT problems immediately. Since then very few
> > improvements was made on NR, and today it seems clearer than ever that
> > the need for the dictator was fully justified.
> >
> > As for the featuring of a dictatorial appointment as a "coup d'etat", it
> > is exaggerating, idiotic and pompous. What was, however, and still is a
> > proper question regarding those events it is whether the consul can
> > convene a senate session jointly by the tribunes or not. As it came out
> > Nova Roma did not accept that legal approach, and thus the dictator was
> > not deemed elected properly.
> >
> > So, accept that facts:
> >
> > 1) the dictator is a normal and legal solution in NR's constitution for
> > handling crises;
> > 2) many Nova Romans and senators wanted that dictator to handle the
> > crisis
> > of last year;
> > 3) the intention and purpose with the dictator was legal since the
> > institution itself is a legal NR institution;
> > 4) the authority which was appointing it was legal since it's the
> > prerogative of the senate, and it was the senate which was electing
> > Marinus;
> > 5) HOWEVER, the way of convening the senate (a consul JOINTLY with the
> > tribunes) was dubious, and some accepted it as a legal way of convening
> > the senate, since our laws did not prohibit it, some thought that it was
> > not provided by our laws as an option because our laws did not
> > explicitely
> > allow it.
> > 6) This way the whole business of appointing the dictator came to a
> > legalistic dispute where the other consul and the other tribunes vetoed
> > it, and finally Marinus himself declined the position.
> >
> > End of the story.
> >
> > Some are now convinced that Marinus as a dictator would have done
> > tyrannic
> > actions. Many others are convinced that Marinus would have been a true
> > healer of our illnesses and a fair and just leader. Since Marinus has
> > never been installed as dictator all what goes beyond the facts are mere
> > fantasy. I personally am most convinced that Marinus would have never
> > wanted confrontation with the law, consequently he as dictator would
> > have
> > worked for the benefit of all of NR.
> >
> > However, it is not the point of my message. The point of my message is
> > the
> > following:
> >
> > We can say that the dictator election was halted and the details of the
> > procedure of convoking the session deemed irregular; BUT no one with
> > sane
> > judgement can call it a "coup d'etat" since the dictator, appointed by
> > the
> > senate, is a LEGAL, CONSTITUTIONAL and lawful institution in the NR
> > Constitution. It can not be called a "coup" what is constitutional. All
> > legal criteria were satisfied, except the bit with the joint
> > consular-trinunicial convoking of the senate session, which is a matter
> > of
> > law interpretation, since it is not explicitely forbidden. Moreover,
> > when
> > it was vetoed, the whole procedure was terminated, and the dictator was
> > not installed: consequently no law was violated.
> >
> > The conclusion is this: neither Scholastica, nor Livia, nor I are
> > denying
> > that SOMETHING happaned last year. And I AM confirming that what
> > happened
> > then it was legally problematic. But what I am saying with Scholatica
> > and
> > with others, it is that an office which is constitutional can not be
> > called a "coup".
> >
> >
> > I will not discuss this topic again: in the archieves you will find my
> > full arguing among the old posts. I know that if you carefully think on
> > the things what I have written, you will see that there is no
> > justification to call last year events as a "coup". So there can not be
> > a
> > justified difference of opinion, unless one is driven purely emotionally
> > against the whole issue. Where our opinions can, however, differ in the
> > greatest extent it is whether the intention with the dictator was good
> > or
> > bad. But it is to decide for each citizen individually, since the
> > dictatorship, as it came out, never started on.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85241 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: IT costs and off the self software.
Ave!

This was my problem with Maior...she wanted EVERYTHING..JSTOR...which is
great...she wanted the IT fixed...which is also necessary...and she wanted
to pay for Piscinus and Scholastica to attend the Conventus last year at
NR's expense.

Without having a proper, stable and growing tax base....each of those things
are just unreasonable and hopelessly naive.

Scholastica, who did not even have to pay the tax this year, complained the
loudest when I tried to work towards getting NR's tax base sufficient to pay
for our requirements and fix some of the areas that need to be addressed.
But instead NR, this year, decided to kick the can down the road instead of
addressing issues that need to be addressed.

Vale,

Sulla

On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 10:33 AM, Timothy or Stephen Gallagher <
spqr753@...> wrote:

>
> Salvete
>
> The reason I voted NOT to spend the amount suggested was that it was
> $10,000 USD.
> That was nearly HALF of the funds NR has in the bank.
> While it would be nice to have custom build IT stuff for NR, Off the self
> software, if and when available should be used.
>
> When I bought and paid for our first year or two of Quicken online it gave
> us the ability to have a CFO
> and other financial officers anywhere in the world. It allowed Equestria
> Iunia Laeca to bring order to our finances.
> and to use professional services at a fraction of the cost of a paid CFO.
>
> It cost about $400 per year. Off the self is not just cheaper in some ways
> its just better.
> The election service I recommended and which the Senate approved is another
> example of an IT solution that
> did not cost thousands of dollar.
>
> We received thousand and thousand of free IT service from Octavius over the
> years.
> There was no way we could have afforded what it really cost him to service
> our account
> and to develop the IT structure he created.
>
> Unless we find a sugar daddy or mommy for Nova Roma we never will.
>
> Valete
>
> Ti. Galerius Paulinus
>
>
>
>
>
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> From: livia.plauta@...
> Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 17:13:01 +0200
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] No coup? O Rly?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Salve Sulla,
> it was impossible to work with you, because the strategy of you and your
> friends was to veto anything the magistrates tried in order to prevent them
> from getting any problem solved and to prepare the ground for your own
> ascent to power.
> That's why your party prevented the agreement to fix Nova Roma's IT system
> then and later had to pay a good sum just to get a working voting system,
> which fixes about 10% of what the NR IT system used to do. (By the way, I'm
> really curious to see the new system implemented).
>
> But that's just one example: actually most of the crises were escalated by
> you and your friends. It's not by chance that the decline started when you
> were reinstated in the Senate.
>
> But now you have the power, so use it! let's see if your party can stop the
> decline of NR.
> You have a chance to prove me, Lentulus and Scholastica wrong by actually
> contributing to the seamless working of NR. You don't even have to overcome
> the same obstacles that we did, because all the opposition has left NR, and
> those who stayed have no position of power.
> You shouldn't have to worry about the way people judge the events of last
> year. After all, they are quite irrelevant for the present.
>
> Vale,
> Livia
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert" <robert.woolwine@...>
> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Cc: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 4:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] No coup? O Rly?
>
> Ave!
>
> Again my response is brief. Once there is an intercessio, as alby posted.
> It's done and any attempt to continue to press on by getting marinus
> appointed as dictator was a coup attempt. What stopped marinus from
> accepting the position was that Caesar and I warned him.... Do it and touch
> nova roma's money and he would be held personally accountable and we would
> sue him. At that point he decided to seek the advice of an attorney and he
> was told the office of dictator is incompatible with Maine law! What that
> means is that he would be held personally liable!
>
> Again attempted coup attempt failed!
>
> Had the coup plotters consulted an attorney first before they planned this
> attempt years ago, and this was planned for over a year...they could have
> helped nr by working with us instead of continually escalating each crisis
> to a new tipping point!
>
> Vale
>
> Sulla
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Aug 19, 2011, at 6:36 AM, "L. Livia Plauta" <livia.plauta@...>
> wrote:
>
> > L. Livia Plauta omnibus sal.
> >
> > I thank my friend Lentulus for sparing me the work to write on this
> topic,
> > by giving a detailed account of what happened and of our opinions on the
> > matter.
> >
> > I need to rewrite the following statement of his into correct English,
> > though, because it might be misunderstood in its current form.
> > Lentulus: "Only if we had Marinus as dictator!... I think we were light
> > years ahead today as compared to this dead frozen state in which NR
> > stagnates without leadership... "
> >
> > Meaning: "If only we had Marinus as a dictator! ... I think we would be
> > light years ahead today compared to this dead frozen state in which NR
> > stagnates without leadership ..."
> >
> > The only point where my opinion differs from Lentulus' is that I think
> > Nova
> > Roma can no longer be "saved" now, in the sense that as an organization
> it
> > is no longer suitable to support the Religio Romana (while it might still
> > be
> > a good place for reenactors who are not interested in Roman religon to
> > meet).
> >
> > I also thank senator Sulla for forwarding all those posts from the Senate
> > list.
> >
> > There used to be a "senate seal" in place, that is, senators were not
> > allowed to forward to the Main List posts form the Senate, or to post
> > about
> > the discussions going on there.
> >
> > So for me it's a surprise, for example, to see the post by Perusianus,
> who
> > usually doesn't post at all in the NR lists. Of course his assessment of
> > the
> > situation at the time was correct: most of the Italians had left NR and
> > were
> > happy with their Pomerium organization.
> >
> > Since then even the last attempt by me and Vindex to keep some people
> > interested in NR has failed.
> >
> > Quintilianus' assessment was also correct:
> > "Shrinking membership, less and less people who pay taxes and vote.
> > We are losing great parts of our Spanish, Italian and Latin American
> > citizens. No activity in Britannia and very little in Gallia. Those
> > who are in Sarmatia and other Eastern European countries are doing a
> > splendid job that gives us hope, but they might also also soon lose
> > hope, because of how we act and not act."
> >
> > Since then there was a mass secession of Sarmatian citizens, who keep
> > pursuing their goal of building a temple to Jupiter, but now outside Nova
> > Roma.
> >
> > Optime valete,
> > Livia
> >
> > > Lentulus omnibus sal.
> > >
> > > I don't want to waste my time on this discussion since I have explained
> > > my
> > > point of view several times in this and other mailing lists already.
> But
> > > as one of the many citizens who applauded the idea of appointing
> Marinus
> > > as dictator, I feel it's my moral obligation to comment and to repeat
> > > again that what happened last year it was NOT a "coup", and it is
> > > UTTERLY
> > > RIDICULOUS, PRETENTIOUS, AND POMPOUS to call it a "coup". But, of
> > > course,
> > > all of us must have the right to use the word which fits his taste.
> > >
> > > I, Scholastica, Livia - and I know that many other citizens - don't
> > > think
> > > that an appointment of a constitutional dictator can be labeled as a
> > > "coup", especially when it is done in a very serious crisis: exactly in
> > > a
> > > situation for what it is invented by our Constitution as a means of
> > > solution.
> > >
> > > I don't exactly know what Scholastica or Livia exactly think, but for
> me
> > > what happened last year was an attempt to save Nova Roma from the
> > > ongoing
> > > chaos by appointing a dictator, a very legal, constitutional and Roman
> > > thing, and it was initially supported by all senators except 1-2, later
> > > still by the overwhelming majority. Almost everyone wanted the
> dictator.
> > >
> > > Was this dictator election a pre-organized political action? OF COURSE
> > > it
> > > was, it had to be, as all well-thought-out political actions are
> > > pre-organized and conscious actions. I have presonally and repeatedly
> > > advocated for appointing a dictator in this very same mailing list
> since
> > > the beginning of the decline of NR. Many citizens trusted Marinus and I
> > > still think that he was an example of leadership, and he as a senior
> > > consular and esteemed senator could have introduced the necessary
> > > reforms
> > > into NR. For our detriment, and ever growing stagnation, he was not
> > > appointed as dictator and NR is today where it is. Only if we had
> > > Marinus
> > > as dictator!... I think we were light years ahead today as compared to
> > > this dead frozen state in which NR stagnates without leadership...
> > >
> > > So, what some very colorfully call a "coup d'etate", is viewed by many
> > > others as a heroic attempt to save Nova Roma from the
> > > internal warrings, stagnation and decline, using the constitutional
> > > option
> > > appointing a person trusted by most people as dictator.
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, the organizers of this dictator election committed an
> > > error - and this is why I must accept that the appointment was indeed
> > > not
> > > regular, thus not completely lawful.
> > >
> > > Why?
> > >
> > > The dictator election attempt was executed using legally questionable
> > > means, i.e. circumventing Albucius' consular veto by Consul
> > > Quintilianus'
> > > convening the senate jointly with the tribunes, which was (and still
> is)
> > > a
> > > matter of debate whether it is legal or illegal, but the debate was
> > > officially concluded by the rest of tribunes as illegal - though there
> > > are
> > > numerous theoretical objections. I, as a law respecting citizen,
> > > accepted
> > > the veto of the tribunes, and I still don't question the outcome: the
> > > dictator was vetoed. Cn. Marinus Censorius dictator-elect accepted it
> > > too.
> > > No dictator entered office.
> > >
> > > That the dictator election failed it was a tragedy, because I firmly
> > > beleive that Marinus as dictator could have stoped the stagnation of
> > > Nova Roma, could have solved our many technical and organizational
> > > problems including our IT problems immediately. Since then very few
> > > improvements was made on NR, and today it seems clearer than ever that
> > > the need for the dictator was fully justified.
> > >
> > > As for the featuring of a dictatorial appointment as a "coup d'etat",
> it
> > > is exaggerating, idiotic and pompous. What was, however, and still is a
> > > proper question regarding those events it is whether the consul can
> > > convene a senate session jointly by the tribunes or not. As it came out
> > > Nova Roma did not accept that legal approach, and thus the dictator was
> > > not deemed elected properly.
> > >
> > > So, accept that facts:
> > >
> > > 1) the dictator is a normal and legal solution in NR's constitution for
> > > handling crises;
> > > 2) many Nova Romans and senators wanted that dictator to handle the
> > > crisis
> > > of last year;
> > > 3) the intention and purpose with the dictator was legal since the
> > > institution itself is a legal NR institution;
> > > 4) the authority which was appointing it was legal since it's the
> > > prerogative of the senate, and it was the senate which was electing
> > > Marinus;
> > > 5) HOWEVER, the way of convening the senate (a consul JOINTLY with the
> > > tribunes) was dubious, and some accepted it as a legal way of convening
> > > the senate, since our laws did not prohibit it, some thought that it
> was
> > > not provided by our laws as an option because our laws did not
> > > explicitely
> > > allow it.
> > > 6) This way the whole business of appointing the dictator came to a
> > > legalistic dispute where the other consul and the other tribunes vetoed
> > > it, and finally Marinus himself declined the position.
> > >
> > > End of the story.
> > >
> > > Some are now convinced that Marinus as a dictator would have done
> > > tyrannic
> > > actions. Many others are convinced that Marinus would have been a true
> > > healer of our illnesses and a fair and just leader. Since Marinus has
> > > never been installed as dictator all what goes beyond the facts are
> mere
> > > fantasy. I personally am most convinced that Marinus would have never
> > > wanted confrontation with the law, consequently he as dictator would
> > > have
> > > worked for the benefit of all of NR.
> > >
> > > However, it is not the point of my message. The point of my message is
> > > the
> > > following:
> > >
> > > We can say that the dictator election was halted and the details of the
> > > procedure of convoking the session deemed irregular; BUT no one with
> > > sane
> > > judgement can call it a "coup d'etat" since the dictator, appointed by
> > > the
> > > senate, is a LEGAL, CONSTITUTIONAL and lawful institution in the NR
> > > Constitution. It can not be called a "coup" what is constitutional. All
> > > legal criteria were satisfied, except the bit with the joint
> > > consular-trinunicial convoking of the senate session, which is a matter
> > > of
> > > law interpretation, since it is not explicitely forbidden. Moreover,
> > > when
> > > it was vetoed, the whole procedure was terminated, and the dictator was
> > > not installed: consequently no law was violated.
> > >
> > > The conclusion is this: neither Scholastica, nor Livia, nor I are
> > > denying
> > > that SOMETHING happaned last year. And I AM confirming that what
> > > happened
> > > then it was legally problematic. But what I am saying with Scholatica
> > > and
> > > with others, it is that an office which is constitutional can not be
> > > called a "coup".
> > >
> > >
> > > I will not discuss this topic again: in the archieves you will find my
> > > full arguing among the old posts. I know that if you carefully think on
> > > the things what I have written, you will see that there is no
> > > justification to call last year events as a "coup". So there can not be
> > > a
> > > justified difference of opinion, unless one is driven purely
> emotionally
> > > against the whole issue. Where our opinions can, however, differ in the
> > > greatest extent it is whether the intention with the dictator was good
> > > or
> > > bad. But it is to decide for each citizen individually, since the
> > > dictatorship, as it came out, never started on.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85242 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Current IT Situation Update
Iulia pont. Consulibus Quiritibusque S.P.D.

Please apprise us of the current IT situation. Also please know that I understand the obstacles and so this is not to elicit any blame or fault but to get some sort of update or forecaste I fully understand the obstacles herein and trust that it is being attended to in the best way possible given our resources.

Vobis gratias

Valete optime,

Julia
Nashvillae scribebat
a.d. XIV Kal. Sep. ‡ P. Ullerio C. Equitio cos. ‡ MMDCCLXIV

Est enim amicitia nihil aliud nisi omnium divinarum humanarumque rerum cum benevolenta et caritate consensio, qua quidem haud scio an excepta spientia nil quicquam melius homini sit a dis immortalibus datum ~ Cicero

http://aedesvenusgenetrix.blogspot.com/
http://www.thelastenchantment.com/
http://www.meetup.com/Mystic-Sanctuary-Of-Fortuna-Primigenia/
http://www.meetup.com/Temple-Of-Venus/
Securum in tenebris me facit esse Venus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85243 From: Belle Morte Statia Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
Salve et Salvete Omnes:


Not to break up the black parade here..

But I thought it was according to Maine Law, it's illegal for us to have a
"Dictator" which was actually discovered by Marinus when he sought legal
counsel.

As I have been told often that Maine Law in a sense trumps our Constitution.

Catch-22 it would seem..

I'm at work so this response is a bit random..

Valete,
Aeternia

On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 3:04 AM, Gaius Tullius Valerianus <
gaius.tullius.valerianus@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Gaius Tullius Valerianus Aulae Tulliae Scholasticae S.P.D.
>
>
> > > Ah, but Scholastica, I am not the one who adjudged the RPR to be our
> > > enemy. That was the Senate, a body to which you belong, not I.
> > >
> > > ATS2: Ah, but I did not vote for this nonsense. Since the Senate is
> > > otherwise composed of members of the faction formerly known as Boni, my
> > vote
> > > carries very little weight. In any case, the vote of the Senate is
> > > irrelevant; the Senate could vote that Obama was a blue-eyed Swede, but
> > that
> > > does not make him one.
> >
>
> The fact that you did not vote for it may be to your credit, Scholastica,
> but the fact that remains is that the Senate has decided NR's official
> position regarding the RPR, So the official position is our official
> position. No comparison to voting that Obama looks like me (well, I'm of
> Swedish descent).
>
>
> Facts are facts.
>
> > >
> > > ATS2: Well, maybe they are not. Maybe things have been presented to you
> > > in a way which is not at all factual.
> >
>
> I am willing to admit that possibility. And when I discover that I am
> wrong,
> I am willing to admit it, and change my mind. But no evidence to the
> contrary of these facts (or apparent facts) has been forthcoming.
>
>
> > > - and he did avoid direct responsibility in the
> > > attempted coup to overthrow the Roman government last year,
> > >
> > > ATS2: There was no coup to overthrow the government of NR.
> >
>
> Well no, Scholastica, there was no coup. Because we stopped it, we defeated
> it, we prevented it from happening. I say "we" because I mean myself and
> others. I think I was the first to openly oppose what was happening. Others
> soon followed. Dexter's stand as tribune was nothing short of heroic.
> Albucius' stand as consul, likewise. I know you weren't part of the plot,
> Scholastica, but you also didn't do much to stop it. Still, Rome has faced
> worse. Compared to Catiline, Piscinus and his plotters were a laugh.
>
>
> > Really? You mean there is not an SCU in place declaring it so,
> > >
> > >
> > > ATS2: Just maybe that SCU was railroaded by your landlord and his pals.
> > > Unless it reflects actual fact, its content is irrelevant. What did
> > Agricola
> > > do, anyway? Why was RPR deemed hostile? I see no reason to consider it
> as
> > > such. Other organizations have formed along the lines of NR (SVR,
> etc.),
> > but
> > > suddenly this particular one is a worse threat than Communism in 1950.
> >
>
> I think the reasoning was hashed out in the Senate ad nauseam, and you, as
> a
> member of the Senate, know it better than I do. Whether you look at the
> corporate model (NR Inc. cannot be friendly with a rival company, RPR Inc,
> any more than Coca-Cola wants to help Pepsi sell its products) or the
> national model (Nova Roma IS the Roman Republic. Anyone splitting off to
> form their own Roman Republic is no better than, say, Quintus Sertorius in
> Hispania, or the Italian Socii rising up against Roma . . . enemies of
> Rome.
> They cannot claim to be us. This is not a roleplaying game. We are who we
> are.
>
>
> > > ATS2: Government by SCU seems popular these days. It�s easier than
> doing
> > > things the right way.
> >
>
> I agree that there has been entirely too much of it. But there has often
> been no other apparent way to get things done. The political and social
> machinery of Nova Roma is broken, and has been for some time. It is
> necessary to start taking positive steps to fix this. Next year's consuls
> will have a massive task ahead of them.
>
>
> > > ATS2: There was no coup. Maybe there was a plan to get things moving
> > > again, but I wasn�t a party to any of this, so I don�t know. In any
> case,
> > > there is nothing wrong with a Roman dictatorship when circumstances
> > merit. It
> > > seems that Vedius held at least one (if not more) of them.
> >
>
> I agree that there is nothing wrong with Roman dictatorship, actually, if
> legally implemented. Apparently there are 2 problems regarding this. The
> first is that such a concept does not accord with our incorporation under
> Maine law. That is a problem. The other, more important, one is that the
> conspirators decided to ignore the lawful veto of a Tribune. They decided
> to
> ignore the Senate. They decided, in fact, to ignore anything that got in
> the
> way of appointing a dictator - like pesky laws against what they were
> doing.
> I spoke to Marinus extensively at the height of the crisis. He acknowledged
> that the proceedings were illegal, and that he would refuse if the
> conspirators still insisted on naming him dictator. So the "plan to get
> things moving again" was acknowledged as an illegal attempt at a coup by
> even the would-be dictator. Why do you, then, continue to deny it?
>
>
> >
> > > Now to the point - either the newroman list is still official, or it is
> > not.
> > >
> > > ATS2: So far as I know, NewRoman has never been official. If so, it
> > > surely has not been of late...before last year.
> >
>
> If that is the case, then the owners and moderators of the list should
> remove the language from the group description which implies that they
> speak
> for Nova Roma. Because they don't, apparently.
>
>
> >
> > > Black and white, no shades of grey, no hemming, no hedging, no hiding
> > behind
> > > other languages so that the majority of the people cannot follow.
> > >
> > > ATS2: If you are referring to Latin, everyone here should be able to
> read
> > > simple Latin. You, as a teacher thereof, should stand up for that. As
> in
> > the
> > > Marines, there�s Yes, ma�am, Yes, sir, No, ma�am, No, sir, and No
> excuse,
> > > Ma�am / Sir. Medical conditions which preclude membership in the
> Marines
> > are
> > > the only exception; those xenophobic quondam Boni are not exempted.
> >
>
> I agree that every Roman *should *know Latin. But not every Roman *does*
> know
> Latin.* *It just looks like pettiness if you switch to Latin just to
> slander
> your opponents, when the rest of your post was in English, and you know
> that
> those opponents speak no Latin. It's simply rude. I have no objection to
> the
> use of Latin on the ML . . . but you must know how bad that made you look
> in
> these particular circumstances.
>
>
> > > If it IS NOT,
> > > then the current owners need to conform to copyright laws
> > >
> > > ATS2: Copyright laws? What does that have to do with the price of tea
> in
> > > China? How is anyone on NewRoman violating the copyright laws?
> >
>
> The "newroman" list uses the trademarked name of Nova Roma and our
> corporate, trademarked logo, the SPQR flag. It thereby makes use of our
> intellectual property and trademark. They claim, legally speaking, to
> represent us. If they don't, that is a macronational crime. The listowner
> is
> a criminal, he is breaking the law. Simple.
>
> Vale et valete!
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>



--
*"Fortes fortuna iuvat"*


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85244 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: No coup? O Rly?
C. Petronius Cn. Lentulo s.p.d.,

>>> But as one of the many citizens who applauded the idea of appointing Marinus as dictator, I feel it's my moral obligation to comment and to repeat again that what happened last year it was NOT a "coup", and it is UTTERLY RIDICULOUS, PRETENTIOUS, AND POMPOUS to call it a "coup". <<<

It was a coup because the senate continued to be illegaly in session after the intercessio that the consul P. Albucius pronounced against his colleague presiding a senate session without a clear agenda and when he did not have the fasces. The call to appoint Marinus as dictator was after the intercessio and was not in the items of the senate session.

Some senators, the consul Quintilianus and 4 tribunes of the Plebs were making a sort of election of a dictator. The candidate felt later that his position was not legal and took the fair decision to renounce this aborted dictatorship.

I know that you thought that Nova Roma needed a dictator and in your mind someone like Marinus may be a sort of Cincinnatus, but the problem about the dictatorship decided under the intercessio of the consul Albucius were not an dictatorship "à l'antique". You know that in ancient Rome sometimes a dictator was created for 6 months and one thing to do. But in the case of the illegal dictatorship wanted by Piscinus and Quintilianus no clear pattern was suggested to the dictator, he had a carte blanche, the "coupmakers" wanted to give him a free hand. That is not the sense of the ancient dictatorship, even if they proposed a dictatorship for 6 months.

It was a coup and it became a failure.

Optime vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
a. d. XIV Kalendas Septembres P. Vllerio C. Equitio coss.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85245 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: "newroman" list issue
Ave!

That is correct. Even Marinus had to confess it once he sought legal
counsel to try to insulate himself from any personal responsiblity if he
took the oath of office (which he did not). At that point the coup attempt
officially died.

Vale,

Sulla

On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 12:00 PM, Belle Morte Statia <
syrenslullaby@...> wrote:

> Salve et Salvete Omnes:
>
>
> Not to break up the black parade here..
>
> But I thought it was according to Maine Law, it's illegal for us to have a
> "Dictator" which was actually discovered by Marinus when he sought legal
> counsel.
>
> As I have been told often that Maine Law in a sense trumps our
> Constitution.
>
> Catch-22 it would seem..
>
> I'm at work so this response is a bit random..
>
> Valete,
> Aeternia
>
> On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 3:04 AM, Gaius Tullius Valerianus <
> gaius.tullius.valerianus@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Gaius Tullius Valerianus Aulae Tulliae Scholasticae S.P.D.
> >
> >
> > > > Ah, but Scholastica, I am not the one who adjudged the RPR to be our
> > > > enemy. That was the Senate, a body to which you belong, not I.
> > > >
> > > > ATS2: Ah, but I did not vote for this nonsense. Since the Senate is
> > > > otherwise composed of members of the faction formerly known as Boni,
> my
> > > vote
> > > > carries very little weight. In any case, the vote of the Senate is
> > > > irrelevant; the Senate could vote that Obama was a blue-eyed Swede,
> but
> > > that
> > > > does not make him one.
> > >
> >
> > The fact that you did not vote for it may be to your credit, Scholastica,
> > but the fact that remains is that the Senate has decided NR's official
> > position regarding the RPR, So the official position is our official
> > position. No comparison to voting that Obama looks like me (well, I'm of
> > Swedish descent).
> >
> >
> > Facts are facts.
> >
> > > >
> > > > ATS2: Well, maybe they are not. Maybe things have been presented to
> you
> > > > in a way which is not at all factual.
> > >
> >
> > I am willing to admit that possibility. And when I discover that I am
> > wrong,
> > I am willing to admit it, and change my mind. But no evidence to the
> > contrary of these facts (or apparent facts) has been forthcoming.
> >
> >
> > > > - and he did avoid direct responsibility in the
> > > > attempted coup to overthrow the Roman government last year,
> > > >
> > > > ATS2: There was no coup to overthrow the government of NR.
> > >
> >
> > Well no, Scholastica, there was no coup. Because we stopped it, we
> defeated
> > it, we prevented it from happening. I say "we" because I mean myself and
> > others. I think I was the first to openly oppose what was happening.
> Others
> > soon followed. Dexter's stand as tribune was nothing short of heroic.
> > Albucius' stand as consul, likewise. I know you weren't part of the plot,
> > Scholastica, but you also didn't do much to stop it. Still, Rome has
> faced
> > worse. Compared to Catiline, Piscinus and his plotters were a laugh.
> >
> >
> > > Really? You mean there is not an SCU in place declaring it so,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ATS2: Just maybe that SCU was railroaded by your landlord and his
> pals.
> > > > Unless it reflects actual fact, its content is irrelevant. What did
> > > Agricola
> > > > do, anyway? Why was RPR deemed hostile? I see no reason to consider
> it
> > as
> > > > such. Other organizations have formed along the lines of NR (SVR,
> > etc.),
> > > but
> > > > suddenly this particular one is a worse threat than Communism in
> 1950.
> > >
> >
> > I think the reasoning was hashed out in the Senate ad nauseam, and you,
> as
> > a
> > member of the Senate, know it better than I do. Whether you look at the
> > corporate model (NR Inc. cannot be friendly with a rival company, RPR
> Inc,
> > any more than Coca-Cola wants to help Pepsi sell its products) or the
> > national model (Nova Roma IS the Roman Republic. Anyone splitting off to
> > form their own Roman Republic is no better than, say, Quintus Sertorius
> in
> > Hispania, or the Italian Socii rising up against Roma . . . enemies of
> > Rome.
> > They cannot claim to be us. This is not a roleplaying game. We are who we
> > are.
> >
> >
> > > > ATS2: Government by SCU seems popular these days. It零 easier than
> > doing
> > > > things the right way.
> > >
> >
> > I agree that there has been entirely too much of it. But there has often
> > been no other apparent way to get things done. The political and social
> > machinery of Nova Roma is broken, and has been for some time. It is
> > necessary to start taking positive steps to fix this. Next year's consuls
> > will have a massive task ahead of them.
> >
> >
> > > > ATS2: There was no coup. Maybe there was a plan to get things moving
> > > > again, but I wasn靖 a party to any of this, so I don靖 know. In any
> > case,
> > > > there is nothing wrong with a Roman dictatorship when circumstances
> > > merit. It
> > > > seems that Vedius held at least one (if not more) of them.
> > >
> >
> > I agree that there is nothing wrong with Roman dictatorship, actually, if
> > legally implemented. Apparently there are 2 problems regarding this. The
> > first is that such a concept does not accord with our incorporation under
> > Maine law. That is a problem. The other, more important, one is that the
> > conspirators decided to ignore the lawful veto of a Tribune. They decided
> > to
> > ignore the Senate. They decided, in fact, to ignore anything that got in
> > the
> > way of appointing a dictator - like pesky laws against what they were
> > doing.
> > I spoke to Marinus extensively at the height of the crisis. He
> acknowledged
> > that the proceedings were illegal, and that he would refuse if the
> > conspirators still insisted on naming him dictator. So the "plan to get
> > things moving again" was acknowledged as an illegal attempt at a coup by
> > even the would-be dictator. Why do you, then, continue to deny it?
> >
> >
> > >
> > > > Now to the point - either the newroman list is still official, or it
> is
> > > not.
> > > >
> > > > ATS2: So far as I know, NewRoman has never been official. If so, it
> > > > surely has not been of late...before last year.
> > >
> >
> > If that is the case, then the owners and moderators of the list should
> > remove the language from the group description which implies that they
> > speak
> > for Nova Roma. Because they don't, apparently.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > > Black and white, no shades of grey, no hemming, no hedging, no hiding
> > > behind
> > > > other languages so that the majority of the people cannot follow.
> > > >
> > > > ATS2: If you are referring to Latin, everyone here should be able to
> > read
> > > > simple Latin. You, as a teacher thereof, should stand up for that. As
> > in
> > > the
> > > > Marines, there零 Yes, ma鈴m, Yes, sir, No, ma鈴m, No, sir, and No
> > excuse,
> > > > Ma鈴m / Sir. Medical conditions which preclude membership in the
> > Marines
> > > are
> > > > the only exception; those xenophobic quondam Boni are not exempted.
> > >
> >
> > I agree that every Roman *should *know Latin. But not every Roman *does*
> > know
> > Latin.* *It just looks like pettiness if you switch to Latin just to
> > slander
> > your opponents, when the rest of your post was in English, and you know
> > that
> > those opponents speak no Latin. It's simply rude. I have no objection to
> > the
> > use of Latin on the ML . . . but you must know how bad that made you look
> > in
> > these particular circumstances.
> >
> >
> > > > If it IS NOT,
> > > > then the current owners need to conform to copyright laws
> > > >
> > > > ATS2: Copyright laws? What does that have to do with the price of tea
> > in
> > > > China? How is anyone on NewRoman violating the copyright laws?
> > >
> >
> > The "newroman" list uses the trademarked name of Nova Roma and our
> > corporate, trademarked logo, the SPQR flag. It thereby makes use of our
> > intellectual property and trademark. They claim, legally speaking, to
> > represent us. If they don't, that is a macronational crime. The listowner
> > is
> > a criminal, he is breaking the law. Simple.
> >
> > Vale et valete!
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> *"Fortes fortuna iuvat"*
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85246 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: IT costs and off the self software.
C. Tullius Valerianus Ti. Galerius Paulino S.P.D.

Salve Pauline! Thank you for illustrating the points so concisely! Yes,
I agree there is an IT issue, but no, spending half our treasury to fix it -
and then some, probably - wasn't and isn't a solution. But in response to
one thing you said:


> Unless we find a sugar daddy or mommy for Nova Roma we never will.


Oh, I'm pretty sure *that* isn't the only way. Acquiring a large enough base
of tax-paying, involved citizens who care about Nova Roma would do the trick
nicely. Giving citizens a reason to invest their time an energy, as well as
their money, in Nova Roma, and creating an economy of activity . . . that's
better (and more sustainable) than a sugar daddy/mommy.

I type this with a smile, Pauline - please don't take it as serious
criticism of your post. I know that you know this. But I think solutions
need to be aired more frequently in the Forum.

Vale!

>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85247 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: IT costs and off the self software.
Salvete,
well, NR has 20 thousand dollars and is sitting on them without using them.
People may wonder why they have to pay taxes if they never get used to
provide services. In fact, I know that this is the reason why many people
stopped paying.

Valete,
Livia


> Ave!
>
> This was my problem with Maior...she wanted EVERYTHING..JSTOR...which is
> great...she wanted the IT fixed...which is also necessary...and she wanted
> to pay for Piscinus and Scholastica to attend the Conventus last year at
> NR's expense.
>
> Without having a proper, stable and growing tax base....each of those
> things
> are just unreasonable and hopelessly naive.
>
> Scholastica, who did not even have to pay the tax this year, complained
> the
> loudest when I tried to work towards getting NR's tax base sufficient to
> pay
> for our requirements and fix some of the areas that need to be addressed.
> But instead NR, this year, decided to kick the can down the road instead
> of
> addressing issues that need to be addressed.
>
> Vale,
>
> Sulla
>
> On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 10:33 AM, Timothy or Stephen Gallagher <
> spqr753@...> wrote:
>
>>
>> Salvete
>>
>> The reason I voted NOT to spend the amount suggested was that it was
>> $10,000 USD.
>> That was nearly HALF of the funds NR has in the bank.
>> While it would be nice to have custom build IT stuff for NR, Off the
>> self
>> software, if and when available should be used.
>>
>> When I bought and paid for our first year or two of Quicken online it
>> gave
>> us the ability to have a CFO
>> and other financial officers anywhere in the world. It allowed Equestria
>> Iunia Laeca to bring order to our finances.
>> and to use professional services at a fraction of the cost of a paid CFO.
>>
>> It cost about $400 per year. Off the self is not just cheaper in some
>> ways
>> its just better.
>> The election service I recommended and which the Senate approved is
>> another
>> example of an IT solution that
>> did not cost thousands of dollar.
>>
>> We received thousand and thousand of free IT service from Octavius over
>> the
>> years.
>> There was no way we could have afforded what it really cost him to
>> service
>> our account
>> and to develop the IT structure he created.
>>
>> Unless we find a sugar daddy or mommy for Nova Roma we never will.
>>
>> Valete
>>
>> Ti. Galerius Paulinus
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>> From: livia.plauta@...
>> Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 17:13:01 +0200
>> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] No coup? O Rly?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Salve Sulla,
>> it was impossible to work with you, because the strategy of you and your
>> friends was to veto anything the magistrates tried in order to prevent
>> them
>> from getting any problem solved and to prepare the ground for your own
>> ascent to power.
>> That's why your party prevented the agreement to fix Nova Roma's IT
>> system
>> then and later had to pay a good sum just to get a working voting system,
>> which fixes about 10% of what the NR IT system used to do. (By the way,
>> I'm
>> really curious to see the new system implemented).
>>
>> But that's just one example: actually most of the crises were escalated
>> by
>> you and your friends. It's not by chance that the decline started when
>> you
>> were reinstated in the Senate.
>>
>> But now you have the power, so use it! let's see if your party can stop
>> the
>> decline of NR.
>> You have a chance to prove me, Lentulus and Scholastica wrong by actually
>> contributing to the seamless working of NR. You don't even have to
>> overcome
>> the same obstacles that we did, because all the opposition has left NR,
>> and
>> those who stayed have no position of power.
>> You shouldn't have to worry about the way people judge the events of last
>> year. After all, they are quite irrelevant for the present.
>>
>> Vale,
>> Livia
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Robert" <robert.woolwine@...>
>> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
>> Cc: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
>> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 4:32 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] No coup? O Rly?
>>
>> Ave!
>>
>> Again my response is brief. Once there is an intercessio, as alby posted.
>> It's done and any attempt to continue to press on by getting marinus
>> appointed as dictator was a coup attempt. What stopped marinus from
>> accepting the position was that Caesar and I warned him.... Do it and
>> touch
>> nova roma's money and he would be held personally accountable and we
>> would
>> sue him. At that point he decided to seek the advice of an attorney and
>> he
>> was told the office of dictator is incompatible with Maine law! What that
>> means is that he would be held personally liable!
>>
>> Again attempted coup attempt failed!
>>
>> Had the coup plotters consulted an attorney first before they planned
>> this
>> attempt years ago, and this was planned for over a year...they could have
>> helped nr by working with us instead of continually escalating each
>> crisis
>> to a new tipping point!
>>
>> Vale
>>
>> Sulla
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Aug 19, 2011, at 6:36 AM, "L. Livia Plauta" <livia.plauta@...>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > L. Livia Plauta omnibus sal.
>> >
>> > I thank my friend Lentulus for sparing me the work to write on this
>> topic,
>> > by giving a detailed account of what happened and of our opinions on
>> > the
>> > matter.
>> >
>> > I need to rewrite the following statement of his into correct English,
>> > though, because it might be misunderstood in its current form.
>> > Lentulus: "Only if we had Marinus as dictator!... I think we were light
>> > years ahead today as compared to this dead frozen state in which NR
>> > stagnates without leadership... "
>> >
>> > Meaning: "If only we had Marinus as a dictator! ... I think we would be
>> > light years ahead today compared to this dead frozen state in which NR
>> > stagnates without leadership ..."
>> >
>> > The only point where my opinion differs from Lentulus' is that I think
>> > Nova
>> > Roma can no longer be "saved" now, in the sense that as an organization
>> it
>> > is no longer suitable to support the Religio Romana (while it might
>> > still
>> > be
>> > a good place for reenactors who are not interested in Roman religon to
>> > meet).
>> >
>> > I also thank senator Sulla for forwarding all those posts from the
>> > Senate
>> > list.
>> >
>> > There used to be a "senate seal" in place, that is, senators were not
>> > allowed to forward to the Main List posts form the Senate, or to post
>> > about
>> > the discussions going on there.
>> >
>> > So for me it's a surprise, for example, to see the post by Perusianus,
>> who
>> > usually doesn't post at all in the NR lists. Of course his assessment
>> > of
>> > the
>> > situation at the time was correct: most of the Italians had left NR and
>> > were
>> > happy with their Pomerium organization.
>> >
>> > Since then even the last attempt by me and Vindex to keep some people
>> > interested in NR has failed.
>> >
>> > Quintilianus' assessment was also correct:
>> > "Shrinking membership, less and less people who pay taxes and vote.
>> > We are losing great parts of our Spanish, Italian and Latin American
>> > citizens. No activity in Britannia and very little in Gallia. Those
>> > who are in Sarmatia and other Eastern European countries are doing a
>> > splendid job that gives us hope, but they might also also soon lose
>> > hope, because of how we act and not act."
>> >
>> > Since then there was a mass secession of Sarmatian citizens, who keep
>> > pursuing their goal of building a temple to Jupiter, but now outside
>> > Nova
>> > Roma.
>> >
>> > Optime valete,
>> > Livia
>> >
>> > > Lentulus omnibus sal.
>> > >
>> > > I don't want to waste my time on this discussion since I have
>> > > explained
>> > > my
>> > > point of view several times in this and other mailing lists already.
>> But
>> > > as one of the many citizens who applauded the idea of appointing
>> Marinus
>> > > as dictator, I feel it's my moral obligation to comment and to repeat
>> > > again that what happened last year it was NOT a "coup", and it is
>> > > UTTERLY
>> > > RIDICULOUS, PRETENTIOUS, AND POMPOUS to call it a "coup". But, of
>> > > course,
>> > > all of us must have the right to use the word which fits his taste.
>> > >
>> > > I, Scholastica, Livia - and I know that many other citizens - don't
>> > > think
>> > > that an appointment of a constitutional dictator can be labeled as a
>> > > "coup", especially when it is done in a very serious crisis: exactly
>> > > in
>> > > a
>> > > situation for what it is invented by our Constitution as a means of
>> > > solution.
>> > >
>> > > I don't exactly know what Scholastica or Livia exactly think, but for
>> me
>> > > what happened last year was an attempt to save Nova Roma from the
>> > > ongoing
>> > > chaos by appointing a dictator, a very legal, constitutional and
>> > > Roman
>> > > thing, and it was initially supported by all senators except 1-2,
>> > > later
>> > > still by the overwhelming majority. Almost everyone wanted the
>> dictator.
>> > >
>> > > Was this dictator election a pre-organized political action? OF
>> > > COURSE
>> > > it
>> > > was, it had to be, as all well-thought-out political actions are
>> > > pre-organized and conscious actions. I have presonally and repeatedly
>> > > advocated for appointing a dictator in this very same mailing list
>> since
>> > > the beginning of the decline of NR. Many citizens trusted Marinus and
>> > > I
>> > > still think that he was an example of leadership, and he as a senior
>> > > consular and esteemed senator could have introduced the necessary
>> > > reforms
>> > > into NR. For our detriment, and ever growing stagnation, he was not
>> > > appointed as dictator and NR is today where it is. Only if we had
>> > > Marinus
>> > > as dictator!... I think we were light years ahead today as compared
>> > > to
>> > > this dead frozen state in which NR stagnates without leadership...
>> > >
>> > > So, what some very colorfully call a "coup d'etate", is viewed by
>> > > many
>> > > others as a heroic attempt to save Nova Roma from the
>> > > internal warrings, stagnation and decline, using the constitutional
>> > > option
>> > > appointing a person trusted by most people as dictator.
>> > >
>> > > Unfortunately, the organizers of this dictator election committed an
>> > > error - and this is why I must accept that the appointment was indeed
>> > > not
>> > > regular, thus not completely lawful.
>> > >
>> > > Why?
>> > >
>> > > The dictator election attempt was executed using legally questionable
>> > > means, i.e. circumventing Albucius' consular veto by Consul
>> > > Quintilianus'
>> > > convening the senate jointly with the tribunes, which was (and still
>> is)
>> > > a
>> > > matter of debate whether it is legal or illegal, but the debate was
>> > > officially concluded by the rest of tribunes as illegal - though
>> > > there
>> > > are
>> > > numerous theoretical objections. I, as a law respecting citizen,
>> > > accepted
>> > > the veto of the tribunes, and I still don't question the outcome: the
>> > > dictator was vetoed. Cn. Marinus Censorius dictator-elect accepted it
>> > > too.
>> > > No dictator entered office.
>> > >
>> > > That the dictator election failed it was a tragedy, because I firmly
>> > > beleive that Marinus as dictator could have stoped the stagnation of
>> > > Nova Roma, could have solved our many technical and organizational
>> > > problems including our IT problems immediately. Since then very few
>> > > improvements was made on NR, and today it seems clearer than ever
>> > > that
>> > > the need for the dictator was fully justified.
>> > >
>> > > As for the featuring of a dictatorial appointment as a "coup d'etat",
>> it
>> > > is exaggerating, idiotic and pompous. What was, however, and still is
>> > > a
>> > > proper question regarding those events it is whether the consul can
>> > > convene a senate session jointly by the tribunes or not. As it came
>> > > out
>> > > Nova Roma did not accept that legal approach, and thus the dictator
>> > > was
>> > > not deemed elected properly.
>> > >
>> > > So, accept that facts:
>> > >
>> > > 1) the dictator is a normal and legal solution in NR's constitution
>> > > for
>> > > handling crises;
>> > > 2) many Nova Romans and senators wanted that dictator to handle the
>> > > crisis
>> > > of last year;
>> > > 3) the intention and purpose with the dictator was legal since the
>> > > institution itself is a legal NR institution;
>> > > 4) the authority which was appointing it was legal since it's the
>> > > prerogative of the senate, and it was the senate which was electing
>> > > Marinus;
>> > > 5) HOWEVER, the way of convening the senate (a consul JOINTLY with
>> > > the
>> > > tribunes) was dubious, and some accepted it as a legal way of
>> > > convening
>> > > the senate, since our laws did not prohibit it, some thought that it
>> was
>> > > not provided by our laws as an option because our laws did not
>> > > explicitely
>> > > allow it.
>> > > 6) This way the whole business of appointing the dictator came to a
>> > > legalistic dispute where the other consul and the other tribunes
>> > > vetoed
>> > > it, and finally Marinus himself declined the position.
>> > >
>> > > End of the story.
>> > >
>> > > Some are now convinced that Marinus as a dictator would have done
>> > > tyrannic
>> > > actions. Many others are convinced that Marinus would have been a
>> > > true
>> > > healer of our illnesses and a fair and just leader. Since Marinus has
>> > > never been installed as dictator all what goes beyond the facts are
>> mere
>> > > fantasy. I personally am most convinced that Marinus would have never
>> > > wanted confrontation with the law, consequently he as dictator would
>> > > have
>> > > worked for the benefit of all of NR.
>> > >
>> > > However, it is not the point of my message. The point of my message
>> > > is
>> > > the
>> > > following:
>> > >
>> > > We can say that the dictator election was halted and the details of
>> > > the
>> > > procedure of convoking the session deemed irregular; BUT no one with
>> > > sane
>> > > judgement can call it a "coup d'etat" since the dictator, appointed
>> > > by
>> > > the
>> > > senate, is a LEGAL, CONSTITUTIONAL and lawful institution in the NR
>> > > Constitution. It can not be called a "coup" what is constitutional.
>> > > All
>> > > legal criteria were satisfied, except the bit with the joint
>> > > consular-trinunicial convoking of the senate session, which is a
>> > > matter
>> > > of
>> > > law interpretation, since it is not explicitely forbidden. Moreover,
>> > > when
>> > > it was vetoed, the whole procedure was terminated, and the dictator
>> > > was
>> > > not installed: consequently no law was violated.
>> > >
>> > > The conclusion is this: neither Scholastica, nor Livia, nor I are
>> > > denying
>> > > that SOMETHING happaned last year. And I AM confirming that what
>> > > happened
>> > > then it was legally problematic. But what I am saying with Scholatica
>> > > and
>> > > with others, it is that an office which is constitutional can not be
>> > > called a "coup".
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > I will not discuss this topic again: in the archieves you will find
>> > > my
>> > > full arguing among the old posts. I know that if you carefully think
>> > > on
>> > > the things what I have written, you will see that there is no
>> > > justification to call last year events as a "coup". So there can not
>> > > be
>> > > a
>> > > justified difference of opinion, unless one is driven purely
>> emotionally
>> > > against the whole issue. Where our opinions can, however, differ in
>> > > the
>> > > greatest extent it is whether the intention with the dictator was
>> > > good
>> > > or
>> > > bad. But it is to decide for each citizen individually, since the
>> > > dictatorship, as it came out, never started on.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85248 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: IT costs and off the self software.
Ave,

Well if you had a business background Livia the worst thing any business can
do is to spend money when it will take a long while to replenish those
funds. I have spelled out in the past that had NR spent half of its funds
on the IT....it would take many many years before that money is replenished.

Spending 10k on a buddy of Quintilianus was not a wise investment - nor was
the proposal adequate to protect Nova Roma's best interest, since there was
no adequate checks or benchmarks to divide up the funds based on a
percentage of work. Nor was there any outside bids to determine the
feasibility of the work, nor was there adequate means to determine if
changes needed to be made to the original agenda item. In other words, it
was a piss poor proposal.

Really? You know that people stopped paying for a fact? Well bully for
them. It took NR to gain most of the funds over the course of 13 years.
Most of those funds were donated to Nova roma (not based on the tax). This
is one of the things that I would like to see changed, but done rationally,
not with any hint of favoritism. NR has had enough issues with the MMP and
Corviland (prodiis).

No more unethical financial arrangements!

Vale,

Sulla


On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 1:10 PM, L. Livia Plauta <livia.plauta@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
>
> Salvete,
> well, NR has 20 thousand dollars and is sitting on them without using them.
>
> People may wonder why they have to pay taxes if they never get used to
> provide services. In fact, I know that this is the reason why many people
> stopped paying.
>
> Valete,
> Livia
>
>
> > Ave!
> >
> > This was my problem with Maior...she wanted EVERYTHING..JSTOR...which is
> > great...she wanted the IT fixed...which is also necessary...and she
> wanted
> > to pay for Piscinus and Scholastica to attend the Conventus last year at
> > NR's expense.
> >
> > Without having a proper, stable and growing tax base....each of those
> > things
> > are just unreasonable and hopelessly naive.
> >
> > Scholastica, who did not even have to pay the tax this year, complained
> > the
> > loudest when I tried to work towards getting NR's tax base sufficient to
> > pay
> > for our requirements and fix some of the areas that need to be addressed.
> > But instead NR, this year, decided to kick the can down the road instead
> > of
> > addressing issues that need to be addressed.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Sulla
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 10:33 AM, Timothy or Stephen Gallagher <
> > spqr753@...> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Salvete
> >>
> >> The reason I voted NOT to spend the amount suggested was that it was
> >> $10,000 USD.
> >> That was nearly HALF of the funds NR has in the bank.
> >> While it would be nice to have custom build IT stuff for NR, Off the
> >> self
> >> software, if and when available should be used.
> >>
> >> When I bought and paid for our first year or two of Quicken online it
> >> gave
> >> us the ability to have a CFO
> >> and other financial officers anywhere in the world. It allowed Equestria
> >> Iunia Laeca to bring order to our finances.
> >> and to use professional services at a fraction of the cost of a paid
> CFO.
> >>
> >> It cost about $400 per year. Off the self is not just cheaper in some
> >> ways
> >> its just better.
> >> The election service I recommended and which the Senate approved is
> >> another
> >> example of an IT solution that
> >> did not cost thousands of dollar.
> >>
> >> We received thousand and thousand of free IT service from Octavius over
> >> the
> >> years.
> >> There was no way we could have afforded what it really cost him to
> >> service
> >> our account
> >> and to develop the IT structure he created.
> >>
> >> Unless we find a sugar daddy or mommy for Nova Roma we never will.
> >>
> >> Valete
> >>
> >> Ti. Galerius Paulinus
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> >> From: livia.plauta@...
> >> Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 17:13:01 +0200
> >> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] No coup? O Rly?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Salve Sulla,
> >> it was impossible to work with you, because the strategy of you and your
> >> friends was to veto anything the magistrates tried in order to prevent
> >> them
> >> from getting any problem solved and to prepare the ground for your own
> >> ascent to power.
> >> That's why your party prevented the agreement to fix Nova Roma's IT
> >> system
> >> then and later had to pay a good sum just to get a working voting
> system,
> >> which fixes about 10% of what the NR IT system used to do. (By the way,
> >> I'm
> >> really curious to see the new system implemented).
> >>
> >> But that's just one example: actually most of the crises were escalated
> >> by
> >> you and your friends. It's not by chance that the decline started when
> >> you
> >> were reinstated in the Senate.
> >>
> >> But now you have the power, so use it! let's see if your party can stop
> >> the
> >> decline of NR.
> >> You have a chance to prove me, Lentulus and Scholastica wrong by
> actually
> >> contributing to the seamless working of NR. You don't even have to
> >> overcome
> >> the same obstacles that we did, because all the opposition has left NR,
> >> and
> >> those who stayed have no position of power.
> >> You shouldn't have to worry about the way people judge the events of
> last
> >> year. After all, they are quite irrelevant for the present.
> >>
> >> Vale,
> >> Livia
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Robert" <robert.woolwine@...>
> >> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> >> Cc: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> >> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 4:32 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] No coup? O Rly?
> >>
> >> Ave!
> >>
> >> Again my response is brief. Once there is an intercessio, as alby
> posted.
> >> It's done and any attempt to continue to press on by getting marinus
> >> appointed as dictator was a coup attempt. What stopped marinus from
> >> accepting the position was that Caesar and I warned him.... Do it and
> >> touch
> >> nova roma's money and he would be held personally accountable and we
> >> would
> >> sue him. At that point he decided to seek the advice of an attorney and
> >> he
> >> was told the office of dictator is incompatible with Maine law! What
> that
> >> means is that he would be held personally liable!
> >>
> >> Again attempted coup attempt failed!
> >>
> >> Had the coup plotters consulted an attorney first before they planned
> >> this
> >> attempt years ago, and this was planned for over a year...they could
> have
> >> helped nr by working with us instead of continually escalating each
> >> crisis
> >> to a new tipping point!
> >>
> >> Vale
> >>
> >> Sulla
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >> On Aug 19, 2011, at 6:36 AM, "L. Livia Plauta" <livia.plauta@...>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > L. Livia Plauta omnibus sal.
> >> >
> >> > I thank my friend Lentulus for sparing me the work to write on this
> >> topic,
> >> > by giving a detailed account of what happened and of our opinions on
> >> > the
> >> > matter.
> >> >
> >> > I need to rewrite the following statement of his into correct English,
> >> > though, because it might be misunderstood in its current form.
> >> > Lentulus: "Only if we had Marinus as dictator!... I think we were
> light
> >> > years ahead today as compared to this dead frozen state in which NR
> >> > stagnates without leadership... "
> >> >
> >> > Meaning: "If only we had Marinus as a dictator! ... I think we would
> be
> >> > light years ahead today compared to this dead frozen state in which NR
> >> > stagnates without leadership ..."
> >> >
> >> > The only point where my opinion differs from Lentulus' is that I think
> >> > Nova
> >> > Roma can no longer be "saved" now, in the sense that as an
> organization
> >> it
> >> > is no longer suitable to support the Religio Romana (while it might
> >> > still
> >> > be
> >> > a good place for reenactors who are not interested in Roman religon to
> >> > meet).
> >> >
> >> > I also thank senator Sulla for forwarding all those posts from the
> >> > Senate
> >> > list.
> >> >
> >> > There used to be a "senate seal" in place, that is, senators were not
> >> > allowed to forward to the Main List posts form the Senate, or to post
> >> > about
> >> > the discussions going on there.
> >> >
> >> > So for me it's a surprise, for example, to see the post by Perusianus,
> >> who
> >> > usually doesn't post at all in the NR lists. Of course his assessment
> >> > of
> >> > the
> >> > situation at the time was correct: most of the Italians had left NR
> and
> >> > were
> >> > happy with their Pomerium organization.
> >> >
> >> > Since then even the last attempt by me and Vindex to keep some people
> >> > interested in NR has failed.
> >> >
> >> > Quintilianus' assessment was also correct:
> >> > "Shrinking membership, less and less people who pay taxes and vote.
> >> > We are losing great parts of our Spanish, Italian and Latin American
> >> > citizens. No activity in Britannia and very little in Gallia. Those
> >> > who are in Sarmatia and other Eastern European countries are doing a
> >> > splendid job that gives us hope, but they might also also soon lose
> >> > hope, because of how we act and not act."
> >> >
> >> > Since then there was a mass secession of Sarmatian citizens, who keep
> >> > pursuing their goal of building a temple to Jupiter, but now outside
> >> > Nova
> >> > Roma.
> >> >
> >> > Optime valete,
> >> > Livia
> >> >
> >> > > Lentulus omnibus sal.
> >> > >
> >> > > I don't want to waste my time on this discussion since I have
> >> > > explained
> >> > > my
> >> > > point of view several times in this and other mailing lists already.
> >> But
> >> > > as one of the many citizens who applauded the idea of appointing
> >> Marinus
> >> > > as dictator, I feel it's my moral obligation to comment and to
> repeat
> >> > > again that what happened last year it was NOT a "coup", and it is
> >> > > UTTERLY
> >> > > RIDICULOUS, PRETENTIOUS, AND POMPOUS to call it a "coup". But, of
> >> > > course,
> >> > > all of us must have the right to use the word which fits his taste.
> >> > >
> >> > > I, Scholastica, Livia - and I know that many other citizens - don't
> >> > > think
> >> > > that an appointment of a constitutional dictator can be labeled as a
> >> > > "coup", especially when it is done in a very serious crisis: exactly
>
> >> > > in
> >> > > a
> >> > > situation for what it is invented by our Constitution as a means of
> >> > > solution.
> >> > >
> >> > > I don't exactly know what Scholastica or Livia exactly think, but
> for
> >> me
> >> > > what happened last year was an attempt to save Nova Roma from the
> >> > > ongoing
> >> > > chaos by appointing a dictator, a very legal, constitutional and
> >> > > Roman
> >> > > thing, and it was initially supported by all senators except 1-2,
> >> > > later
> >> > > still by the overwhelming majority. Almost everyone wanted the
> >> dictator.
> >> > >
> >> > > Was this dictator election a pre-organized political action? OF
> >> > > COURSE
> >> > > it
> >> > > was, it had to be, as all well-thought-out political actions are
> >> > > pre-organized and conscious actions. I have presonally and
> repeatedly
> >> > > advocated for appointing a dictator in this very same mailing list
> >> since
> >> > > the beginning of the decline of NR. Many citizens trusted Marinus
> and
> >> > > I
> >> > > still think that he was an example of leadership, and he as a senior
> >> > > consular and esteemed senator could have introduced the necessary
> >> > > reforms
> >> > > into NR. For our detriment, and ever growing stagnation, he was not
> >> > > appointed as dictator and NR is today where it is. Only if we had
> >> > > Marinus
> >> > > as dictator!... I think we were light years ahead today as compared
> >> > > to
> >> > > this dead frozen state in which NR stagnates without leadership...
> >> > >
> >> > > So, what some very colorfully call a "coup d'etate", is viewed by
> >> > > many
> >> > > others as a heroic attempt to save Nova Roma from the
> >> > > internal warrings, stagnation and decline, using the constitutional
> >> > > option
> >> > > appointing a person trusted by most people as dictator.
> >> > >
> >> > > Unfortunately, the organizers of this dictator election committed an
> >> > > error - and this is why I must accept that the appointment was
> indeed
> >> > > not
> >> > > regular, thus not completely lawful.
> >> > >
> >> > > Why?
> >> > >
> >> > > The dictator election attempt was executed using legally
> questionable
> >> > > means, i.e. circumventing Albucius' consular veto by Consul
> >> > > Quintilianus'
> >> > > convening the senate jointly with the tribunes, which was (and still
> >> is)
> >> > > a
> >> > > matter of debate whether it is legal or illegal, but the debate was
> >> > > officially concluded by the rest of tribunes as illegal - though
> >> > > there
> >> > > are
> >> > > numerous theoretical objections. I, as a law respecting citizen,
> >> > > accepted
> >> > > the veto of the tribunes, and I still don't question the outcome:
> the
> >> > > dictator was vetoed. Cn. Marinus Censorius dictator-elect accepted
> it
> >> > > too.
> >> > > No dictator entered office.
> >> > >
> >> > > That the dictator election failed it was a tragedy, because I firmly
> >> > > beleive that Marinus as dictator could have stoped the stagnation of
> >> > > Nova Roma, could have solved our many technical and organizational
> >> > > problems including our IT problems immediately. Since then very few
> >> > > improvements was made on NR, and today it seems clearer than ever
> >> > > that
> >> > > the need for the dictator was fully justified.
> >> > >
> >> > > As for the featuring of a dictatorial appointment as a "coup
> d'etat",
> >> it
> >> > > is exaggerating, idiotic and pompous. What was, however, and still
> is
> >> > > a
> >> > > proper question regarding those events it is whether the consul can
> >> > > convene a senate session jointly by the tribunes or not. As it came
> >> > > out
> >> > > Nova Roma did not accept that legal approach, and thus the dictator
> >> > > was
> >> > > not deemed elected properly.
> >> > >
> >> > > So, accept that facts:
> >> > >
> >> > > 1) the dictator is a normal and legal solution in NR's constitution
> >> > > for
> >> > > handling crises;
> >> > > 2) many Nova Romans and senators wanted that dictator to handle the
> >> > > crisis
> >> > > of last year;
> >> > > 3) the intention and purpose with the dictator was legal since the
> >> > > institution itself is a legal NR institution;
> >> > > 4) the authority which was appointing it was legal since it's the
> >> > > prerogative of the senate, and it was the senate which was electing
> >> > > Marinus;
> >> > > 5) HOWEVER, the way of convening the senate (a consul JOINTLY with
> >> > > the
> >> > > tribunes) was dubious, and some accepted it as a legal way of
> >> > > convening
> >> > > the senate, since our laws did not prohibit it, some thought that it
> >> was
> >> > > not provided by our laws as an option because our laws did not
> >> > > explicitely
> >> > > allow it.
> >> > > 6) This way the whole business of appointing the dictator came to a
> >> > > legalistic dispute where the other consul and the other tribunes
> >> > > vetoed
> >> > > it, and finally Marinus himself declined the position.
> >> > >
> >> > > End of the story.
> >> > >
> >> > > Some are now convinced that Marinus as a dictator would have done
> >> > > tyrannic
> >> > > actions. Many others are convinced that Marinus would have been a
> >> > > true
> >> > > healer of our illnesses and a fair and just leader. Since Marinus
> has
> >> > > never been installed as dictator all what goes beyond the facts are
> >> mere
> >> > > fantasy. I personally am most convinced that Marinus would have
> never
> >> > > wanted confrontation with the law, consequently he as dictator would
> >> > > have
> >> > > worked for the benefit of all of NR.
> >> > >
> >> > > However, it is not the point of my message. The point of my message
> >> > > is
> >> > > the
> >> > > following:
> >> > >
> >> > > We can say that the dictator election was halted and the details of
> >> > > the
> >> > > procedure of convoking the session deemed irregular; BUT no one with
> >> > > sane
> >> > > judgement can call it a "coup d'etat" since the dictator, appointed
> >> > > by
> >> > > the
> >> > > senate, is a LEGAL, CONSTITUTIONAL and lawful institution in the NR
> >> > > Constitution. It can not be called a "coup" what is constitutional.
> >> > > All
> >> > > legal criteria were satisfied, except the bit with the joint
> >> > > consular-trinunicial convoking of the senate session, which is a
> >> > > matter
> >> > > of
> >> > > law interpretation, since it is not explicitely forbidden. Moreover,
> >> > > when
> >> > > it was vetoed, the whole procedure was terminated, and the dictator
> >> > > was
> >> > > not installed: consequently no law was violated.
> >> > >
> >> > > The conclusion is this: neither Scholastica, nor Livia, nor I are
> >> > > denying
> >> > > that SOMETHING happaned last year. And I AM confirming that what
> >> > > happened
> >> > > then it was legally problematic. But what I am saying with
> Scholatica
> >> > > and
> >> > > with others, it is that an office which is constitutional can not be
> >> > > called a "coup".
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > I will not discuss this topic again: in the archieves you will find
> >> > > my
> >> > > full arguing among the old posts. I know that if you carefully think
>
> >> > > on
> >> > > the things what I have written, you will see that there is no
> >> > > justification to call last year events as a "coup". So there can not
>
> >> > > be
> >> > > a
> >> > > justified difference of opinion, unless one is driven purely
> >> emotionally
> >> > > against the whole issue. Where our opinions can, however, differ in
> >> > > the
> >> > > greatest extent it is whether the intention with the dictator was
> >> > > good
> >> > > or
> >> > > bad. But it is to decide for each citizen individually, since the
> >> > > dictatorship, as it came out, never started on.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85249 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: IT costs and off the self software.
Salve,
well, the Sodalitas pro Diis (http://prodiis.org ) is no longer connected
with Nova Roma, so it's no longer an issue. Unfortunately the Magna Mater
project did not manage to survive on its own.

Vale,
Livia


> Ave,
>
> Well if you had a business background Livia the worst thing any business
> can
> do is to spend money when it will take a long while to replenish those
> funds. I have spelled out in the past that had NR spent half of its funds
> on the IT....it would take many many years before that money is
> replenished.
>
> Spending 10k on a buddy of Quintilianus was not a wise investment - nor
> was
> the proposal adequate to protect Nova Roma's best interest, since there
> was
> no adequate checks or benchmarks to divide up the funds based on a
> percentage of work. Nor was there any outside bids to determine the
> feasibility of the work, nor was there adequate means to determine if
> changes needed to be made to the original agenda item. In other words, it
> was a piss poor proposal.
>
> Really? You know that people stopped paying for a fact? Well bully for
> them. It took NR to gain most of the funds over the course of 13 years.
> Most of those funds were donated to Nova roma (not based on the tax).
> This
> is one of the things that I would like to see changed, but done
> rationally,
> not with any hint of favoritism. NR has had enough issues with the MMP
> and
> Corviland (prodiis).
>
> No more unethical financial arrangements!
>
> Vale,
>
> Sulla
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 1:10 PM, L. Livia Plauta
> <livia.plauta@...>wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>>
>>
>> Salvete,
>> well, NR has 20 thousand dollars and is sitting on them without using
>> them.
>>
>> People may wonder why they have to pay taxes if they never get used to
>> provide services. In fact, I know that this is the reason why many people
>> stopped paying.
>>
>> Valete,
>> Livia
>>
>>
>> > Ave!
>> >
>> > This was my problem with Maior...she wanted EVERYTHING..JSTOR...which
>> > is
>> > great...she wanted the IT fixed...which is also necessary...and she
>> wanted
>> > to pay for Piscinus and Scholastica to attend the Conventus last year
>> > at
>> > NR's expense.
>> >
>> > Without having a proper, stable and growing tax base....each of those
>> > things
>> > are just unreasonable and hopelessly naive.
>> >
>> > Scholastica, who did not even have to pay the tax this year, complained
>> > the
>> > loudest when I tried to work towards getting NR's tax base sufficient
>> > to
>> > pay
>> > for our requirements and fix some of the areas that need to be
>> > addressed.
>> > But instead NR, this year, decided to kick the can down the road
>> > instead
>> > of
>> > addressing issues that need to be addressed.
>> >
>> > Vale,
>> >
>> > Sulla
>> >
>> > On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 10:33 AM, Timothy or Stephen Gallagher <
>> > spqr753@...> wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Salvete
>> >>
>> >> The reason I voted NOT to spend the amount suggested was that it was
>> >> $10,000 USD.
>> >> That was nearly HALF of the funds NR has in the bank.
>> >> While it would be nice to have custom build IT stuff for NR, Off the
>> >> self
>> >> software, if and when available should be used.
>> >>
>> >> When I bought and paid for our first year or two of Quicken online it
>> >> gave
>> >> us the ability to have a CFO
>> >> and other financial officers anywhere in the world. It allowed
>> >> Equestria
>> >> Iunia Laeca to bring order to our finances.
>> >> and to use professional services at a fraction of the cost of a paid
>> CFO.
>> >>
>> >> It cost about $400 per year. Off the self is not just cheaper in some
>> >> ways
>> >> its just better.
>> >> The election service I recommended and which the Senate approved is
>> >> another
>> >> example of an IT solution that
>> >> did not cost thousands of dollar.
>> >>
>> >> We received thousand and thousand of free IT service from Octavius
>> >> over
>> >> the
>> >> years.
>> >> There was no way we could have afforded what it really cost him to
>> >> service
>> >> our account
>> >> and to develop the IT structure he created.
>> >>
>> >> Unless we find a sugar daddy or mommy for Nova Roma we never will.
>> >>
>> >> Valete
>> >>
>> >> Ti. Galerius Paulinus
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>> >> From: livia.plauta@...
>> >> Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 17:13:01 +0200
>> >> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] No coup? O Rly?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Salve Sulla,
>> >> it was impossible to work with you, because the strategy of you and
>> >> your
>> >> friends was to veto anything the magistrates tried in order to prevent
>> >> them
>> >> from getting any problem solved and to prepare the ground for your own
>> >> ascent to power.
>> >> That's why your party prevented the agreement to fix Nova Roma's IT
>> >> system
>> >> then and later had to pay a good sum just to get a working voting
>> system,
>> >> which fixes about 10% of what the NR IT system used to do. (By the
>> >> way,
>> >> I'm
>> >> really curious to see the new system implemented).
>> >>
>> >> But that's just one example: actually most of the crises were
>> >> escalated
>> >> by
>> >> you and your friends. It's not by chance that the decline started when
>> >> you
>> >> were reinstated in the Senate.
>> >>
>> >> But now you have the power, so use it! let's see if your party can
>> >> stop
>> >> the
>> >> decline of NR.
>> >> You have a chance to prove me, Lentulus and Scholastica wrong by
>> actually
>> >> contributing to the seamless working of NR. You don't even have to
>> >> overcome
>> >> the same obstacles that we did, because all the opposition has left
>> >> NR,
>> >> and
>> >> those who stayed have no position of power.
>> >> You shouldn't have to worry about the way people judge the events of
>> last
>> >> year. After all, they are quite irrelevant for the present.
>> >>
>> >> Vale,
>> >> Livia
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Robert" <robert.woolwine@...>
>> >> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
>> >> Cc: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
>> >> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 4:32 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] No coup? O Rly?
>> >>
>> >> Ave!
>> >>
>> >> Again my response is brief. Once there is an intercessio, as alby
>> posted.
>> >> It's done and any attempt to continue to press on by getting marinus
>> >> appointed as dictator was a coup attempt. What stopped marinus from
>> >> accepting the position was that Caesar and I warned him.... Do it and
>> >> touch
>> >> nova roma's money and he would be held personally accountable and we
>> >> would
>> >> sue him. At that point he decided to seek the advice of an attorney
>> >> and
>> >> he
>> >> was told the office of dictator is incompatible with Maine law! What
>> that
>> >> means is that he would be held personally liable!
>> >>
>> >> Again attempted coup attempt failed!
>> >>
>> >> Had the coup plotters consulted an attorney first before they planned
>> >> this
>> >> attempt years ago, and this was planned for over a year...they could
>> have
>> >> helped nr by working with us instead of continually escalating each
>> >> crisis
>> >> to a new tipping point!
>> >>
>> >> Vale
>> >>
>> >> Sulla
>> >>
>> >> Sent from my iPhone
>> >>
>> >> On Aug 19, 2011, at 6:36 AM, "L. Livia Plauta"
>> >> <livia.plauta@...>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > L. Livia Plauta omnibus sal.
>> >> >
>> >> > I thank my friend Lentulus for sparing me the work to write on this
>> >> topic,
>> >> > by giving a detailed account of what happened and of our opinions on
>> >> > the
>> >> > matter.
>> >> >
>> >> > I need to rewrite the following statement of his into correct
>> >> > English,
>> >> > though, because it might be misunderstood in its current form.
>> >> > Lentulus: "Only if we had Marinus as dictator!... I think we were
>> light
>> >> > years ahead today as compared to this dead frozen state in which NR
>> >> > stagnates without leadership... "
>> >> >
>> >> > Meaning: "If only we had Marinus as a dictator! ... I think we would
>> be
>> >> > light years ahead today compared to this dead frozen state in which
>> >> > NR
>> >> > stagnates without leadership ..."
>> >> >
>> >> > The only point where my opinion differs from Lentulus' is that I
>> >> > think
>> >> > Nova
>> >> > Roma can no longer be "saved" now, in the sense that as an
>> organization
>> >> it
>> >> > is no longer suitable to support the Religio Romana (while it might
>> >> > still
>> >> > be
>> >> > a good place for reenactors who are not interested in Roman religon
>> >> > to
>> >> > meet).
>> >> >
>> >> > I also thank senator Sulla for forwarding all those posts from the
>> >> > Senate
>> >> > list.
>> >> >
>> >> > There used to be a "senate seal" in place, that is, senators were
>> >> > not
>> >> > allowed to forward to the Main List posts form the Senate, or to
>> >> > post
>> >> > about
>> >> > the discussions going on there.
>> >> >
>> >> > So for me it's a surprise, for example, to see the post by
>> >> > Perusianus,
>> >> who
>> >> > usually doesn't post at all in the NR lists. Of course his
>> >> > assessment
>> >> > of
>> >> > the
>> >> > situation at the time was correct: most of the Italians had left NR
>> and
>> >> > were
>> >> > happy with their Pomerium organization.
>> >> >
>> >> > Since then even the last attempt by me and Vindex to keep some
>> >> > people
>> >> > interested in NR has failed.
>> >> >
>> >> > Quintilianus' assessment was also correct:
>> >> > "Shrinking membership, less and less people who pay taxes and vote.
>> >> > We are losing great parts of our Spanish, Italian and Latin American
>> >> > citizens. No activity in Britannia and very little in Gallia. Those
>> >> > who are in Sarmatia and other Eastern European countries are doing a
>> >> > splendid job that gives us hope, but they might also also soon lose
>> >> > hope, because of how we act and not act."
>> >> >
>> >> > Since then there was a mass secession of Sarmatian citizens, who
>> >> > keep
>> >> > pursuing their goal of building a temple to Jupiter, but now outside
>> >> > Nova
>> >> > Roma.
>> >> >
>> >> > Optime valete,
>> >> > Livia
>> >> >
>> >> > > Lentulus omnibus sal.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > I don't want to waste my time on this discussion since I have
>> >> > > explained
>> >> > > my
>> >> > > point of view several times in this and other mailing lists
>> >> > > already.
>> >> But
>> >> > > as one of the many citizens who applauded the idea of appointing
>> >> Marinus
>> >> > > as dictator, I feel it's my moral obligation to comment and to
>> repeat
>> >> > > again that what happened last year it was NOT a "coup", and it is
>> >> > > UTTERLY
>> >> > > RIDICULOUS, PRETENTIOUS, AND POMPOUS to call it a "coup". But, of
>> >> > > course,
>> >> > > all of us must have the right to use the word which fits his
>> >> > > taste.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > I, Scholastica, Livia - and I know that many other citizens -
>> >> > > don't
>> >> > > think
>> >> > > that an appointment of a constitutional dictator can be labeled as
>> >> > > a
>> >> > > "coup", especially when it is done in a very serious crisis:
>> >> > > exactly
>>
>> >> > > in
>> >> > > a
>> >> > > situation for what it is invented by our Constitution as a means
>> >> > > of
>> >> > > solution.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > I don't exactly know what Scholastica or Livia exactly think, but
>> for
>> >> me
>> >> > > what happened last year was an attempt to save Nova Roma from the
>> >> > > ongoing
>> >> > > chaos by appointing a dictator, a very legal, constitutional and
>> >> > > Roman
>> >> > > thing, and it was initially supported by all senators except 1-2,
>> >> > > later
>> >> > > still by the overwhelming majority. Almost everyone wanted the
>> >> dictator.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Was this dictator election a pre-organized political action? OF
>> >> > > COURSE
>> >> > > it
>> >> > > was, it had to be, as all well-thought-out political actions are
>> >> > > pre-organized and conscious actions. I have presonally and
>> repeatedly
>> >> > > advocated for appointing a dictator in this very same mailing list
>> >> since
>> >> > > the beginning of the decline of NR. Many citizens trusted Marinus
>> and
>> >> > > I
>> >> > > still think that he was an example of leadership, and he as a
>> >> > > senior
>> >> > > consular and esteemed senator could have introduced the necessary
>> >> > > reforms
>> >> > > into NR. For our detriment, and ever growing stagnation, he was
>> >> > > not
>> >> > > appointed as dictator and NR is today where it is. Only if we had
>> >> > > Marinus
>> >> > > as dictator!... I think we were light years ahead today as
>> >> > > compared
>> >> > > to
>> >> > > this dead frozen state in which NR stagnates without leadership...
>> >> > >
>> >> > > So, what some very colorfully call a "coup d'etate", is viewed by
>> >> > > many
>> >> > > others as a heroic attempt to save Nova Roma from the
>> >> > > internal warrings, stagnation and decline, using the
>> >> > > constitutional
>> >> > > option
>> >> > > appointing a person trusted by most people as dictator.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Unfortunately, the organizers of this dictator election committed
>> >> > > an
>> >> > > error - and this is why I must accept that the appointment was
>> indeed
>> >> > > not
>> >> > > regular, thus not completely lawful.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Why?
>> >> > >
>> >> > > The dictator election attempt was executed using legally
>> questionable
>> >> > > means, i.e. circumventing Albucius' consular veto by Consul
>> >> > > Quintilianus'
>> >> > > convening the senate jointly with the tribunes, which was (and
>> >> > > still
>> >> is)
>> >> > > a
>> >> > > matter of debate whether it is legal or illegal, but the debate
>> >> > > was
>> >> > > officially concluded by the rest of tribunes as illegal - though
>> >> > > there
>> >> > > are
>> >> > > numerous theoretical objections. I, as a law respecting citizen,
>> >> > > accepted
>> >> > > the veto of the tribunes, and I still don't question the outcome:
>> the
>> >> > > dictator was vetoed. Cn. Marinus Censorius dictator-elect accepted
>> it
>> >> > > too.
>> >> > > No dictator entered office.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > That the dictator election failed it was a tragedy, because I
>> >> > > firmly
>> >> > > beleive that Marinus as dictator could have stoped the stagnation
>> >> > > of
>> >> > > Nova Roma, could have solved our many technical and organizational
>> >> > > problems including our IT problems immediately. Since then very
>> >> > > few
>> >> > > improvements was made on NR, and today it seems clearer than ever
>> >> > > that
>> >> > > the need for the dictator was fully justified.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > As for the featuring of a dictatorial appointment as a "coup
>> d'etat",
>> >> it
>> >> > > is exaggerating, idiotic and pompous. What was, however, and still
>> is
>> >> > > a
>> >> > > proper question regarding those events it is whether the consul
>> >> > > can
>> >> > > convene a senate session jointly by the tribunes or not. As it
>> >> > > came
>> >> > > out
>> >> > > Nova Roma did not accept that legal approach, and thus the
>> >> > > dictator
>> >> > > was
>> >> > > not deemed elected properly.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > So, accept that facts:
>> >> > >
>> >> > > 1) the dictator is a normal and legal solution in NR's
>> >> > > constitution
>> >> > > for
>> >> > > handling crises;
>> >> > > 2) many Nova Romans and senators wanted that dictator to handle
>> >> > > the
>> >> > > crisis
>> >> > > of last year;
>> >> > > 3) the intention and purpose with the dictator was legal since the
>> >> > > institution itself is a legal NR institution;
>> >> > > 4) the authority which was appointing it was legal since it's the
>> >> > > prerogative of the senate, and it was the senate which was
>> >> > > electing
>> >> > > Marinus;
>> >> > > 5) HOWEVER, the way of convening the senate (a consul JOINTLY with
>> >> > > the
>> >> > > tribunes) was dubious, and some accepted it as a legal way of
>> >> > > convening
>> >> > > the senate, since our laws did not prohibit it, some thought that
>> >> > > it
>> >> was
>> >> > > not provided by our laws as an option because our laws did not
>> >> > > explicitely
>> >> > > allow it.
>> >> > > 6) This way the whole business of appointing the dictator came to
>> >> > > a
>> >> > > legalistic dispute where the other consul and the other tribunes
>> >> > > vetoed
>> >> > > it, and finally Marinus himself declined the position.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > End of the story.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Some are now convinced that Marinus as a dictator would have done
>> >> > > tyrannic
>> >> > > actions. Many others are convinced that Marinus would have been a
>> >> > > true
>> >> > > healer of our illnesses and a fair and just leader. Since Marinus
>> has
>> >> > > never been installed as dictator all what goes beyond the facts
>> >> > > are
>> >> mere
>> >> > > fantasy. I personally am most convinced that Marinus would have
>> never
>> >> > > wanted confrontation with the law, consequently he as dictator
>> >> > > would
>> >> > > have
>> >> > > worked for the benefit of all of NR.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > However, it is not the point of my message. The point of my
>> >> > > message
>> >> > > is
>> >> > > the
>> >> > > following:
>> >> > >
>> >> > > We can say that the dictator election was halted and the details
>> >> > > of
>> >> > > the
>> >> > > procedure of convoking the session deemed irregular; BUT no one
>> >> > > with
>> >> > > sane
>> >> > > judgement can call it a "coup d'etat" since the dictator,
>> >> > > appointed
>> >> > > by
>> >> > > the
>> >> > > senate, is a LEGAL, CONSTITUTIONAL and lawful institution in the
>> >> > > NR
>> >> > > Constitution. It can not be called a "coup" what is
>> >> > > constitutional.
>> >> > > All
>> >> > > legal criteria were satisfied, except the bit with the joint
>> >> > > consular-trinunicial convoking of the senate session, which is a
>> >> > > matter
>> >> > > of
>> >> > > law interpretation, since it is not explicitely forbidden.
>> >> > > Moreover,
>> >> > > when
>> >> > > it was vetoed, the whole procedure was terminated, and the
>> >> > > dictator
>> >> > > was
>> >> > > not installed: consequently no law was violated.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > The conclusion is this: neither Scholastica, nor Livia, nor I are
>> >> > > denying
>> >> > > that SOMETHING happaned last year. And I AM confirming that what
>> >> > > happened
>> >> > > then it was legally problematic. But what I am saying with
>> Scholatica
>> >> > > and
>> >> > > with others, it is that an office which is constitutional can not
>> >> > > be
>> >> > > called a "coup".
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > I will not discuss this topic again: in the archieves you will
>> >> > > find
>> >> > > my
>> >> > > full arguing among the old posts. I know that if you carefully
>> >> > > think
>>
>> >> > > on
>> >> > > the things what I have written, you will see that there is no
>> >> > > justification to call last year events as a "coup". So there can
>> >> > > not
>>
>> >> > > be
>> >> > > a
>> >> > > justified difference of opinion, unless one is driven purely
>> >> emotionally
>> >> > > against the whole issue. Where our opinions can, however, differ
>> >> > > in
>> >> > > the
>> >> > > greatest extent it is whether the intention with the dictator was
>> >> > > good
>> >> > > or
>> >> > > bad. But it is to decide for each citizen individually, since the
>> >> > > dictatorship, as it came out, never started on.
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> Yahoo! Groups Links
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85250 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: IT costs and off the self software.
Ave,

So, by your deflection of the conversation I take it that you know my
professional assessment is the correct one?

Vale,

Sulla



On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 2:39 PM, L. Livia Plauta <livia.plauta@...>wrote:

> Salve,
> well, the Sodalitas pro Diis (http://prodiis.org ) is no longer connected
> with Nova Roma, so it's no longer an issue. Unfortunately the Magna Mater
> project did not manage to survive on its own.
>
> Vale,
> Livia
>
>
> > Ave,
> >
> > Well if you had a business background Livia the worst thing any business
> > can
> > do is to spend money when it will take a long while to replenish those
> > funds. I have spelled out in the past that had NR spent half of its
> funds
> > on the IT....it would take many many years before that money is
> > replenished.
> >
> > Spending 10k on a buddy of Quintilianus was not a wise investment - nor
> > was
> > the proposal adequate to protect Nova Roma's best interest, since there
> > was
> > no adequate checks or benchmarks to divide up the funds based on a
> > percentage of work. Nor was there any outside bids to determine the
> > feasibility of the work, nor was there adequate means to determine if
> > changes needed to be made to the original agenda item. In other words,
> it
> > was a piss poor proposal.
> >
> > Really? You know that people stopped paying for a fact? Well bully for
> > them. It took NR to gain most of the funds over the course of 13 years.
> > Most of those funds were donated to Nova roma (not based on the tax).
> > This
> > is one of the things that I would like to see changed, but done
> > rationally,
> > not with any hint of favoritism. NR has had enough issues with the MMP
> > and
> > Corviland (prodiis).
> >
> > No more unethical financial arrangements!
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Sulla
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 1:10 PM, L. Livia Plauta
> > <livia.plauta@...>wrote:
> >
> >> **
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Salvete,
> >> well, NR has 20 thousand dollars and is sitting on them without using
> >> them.
> >>
> >> People may wonder why they have to pay taxes if they never get used to
> >> provide services. In fact, I know that this is the reason why many
> people
> >> stopped paying.
> >>
> >> Valete,
> >> Livia
> >>
> >>
> >> > Ave!
> >> >
> >> > This was my problem with Maior...she wanted EVERYTHING..JSTOR...which
> >> > is
> >> > great...she wanted the IT fixed...which is also necessary...and she
> >> wanted
> >> > to pay for Piscinus and Scholastica to attend the Conventus last year
> >> > at
> >> > NR's expense.
> >> >
> >> > Without having a proper, stable and growing tax base....each of those
> >> > things
> >> > are just unreasonable and hopelessly naive.
> >> >
> >> > Scholastica, who did not even have to pay the tax this year,
> complained
> >> > the
> >> > loudest when I tried to work towards getting NR's tax base sufficient
> >> > to
> >> > pay
> >> > for our requirements and fix some of the areas that need to be
> >> > addressed.
> >> > But instead NR, this year, decided to kick the can down the road
> >> > instead
> >> > of
> >> > addressing issues that need to be addressed.
> >> >
> >> > Vale,
> >> >
> >> > Sulla
> >> >
> >> > On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 10:33 AM, Timothy or Stephen Gallagher <
> >> > spqr753@...> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Salvete
> >> >>
> >> >> The reason I voted NOT to spend the amount suggested was that it was
> >> >> $10,000 USD.
> >> >> That was nearly HALF of the funds NR has in the bank.
> >> >> While it would be nice to have custom build IT stuff for NR, Off the
> >> >> self
> >> >> software, if and when available should be used.
> >> >>
> >> >> When I bought and paid for our first year or two of Quicken online it
> >> >> gave
> >> >> us the ability to have a CFO
> >> >> and other financial officers anywhere in the world. It allowed
> >> >> Equestria
> >> >> Iunia Laeca to bring order to our finances.
> >> >> and to use professional services at a fraction of the cost of a paid
> >> CFO.
> >> >>
> >> >> It cost about $400 per year. Off the self is not just cheaper in some
> >> >> ways
> >> >> its just better.
> >> >> The election service I recommended and which the Senate approved is
> >> >> another
> >> >> example of an IT solution that
> >> >> did not cost thousands of dollar.
> >> >>
> >> >> We received thousand and thousand of free IT service from Octavius
> >> >> over
> >> >> the
> >> >> years.
> >> >> There was no way we could have afforded what it really cost him to
> >> >> service
> >> >> our account
> >> >> and to develop the IT structure he created.
> >> >>
> >> >> Unless we find a sugar daddy or mommy for Nova Roma we never will.
> >> >>
> >> >> Valete
> >> >>
> >> >> Ti. Galerius Paulinus
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> >> >> From: livia.plauta@...
> >> >> Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 17:13:01 +0200
> >> >> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] No coup? O Rly?
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Salve Sulla,
> >> >> it was impossible to work with you, because the strategy of you and
> >> >> your
> >> >> friends was to veto anything the magistrates tried in order to
> prevent
> >> >> them
> >> >> from getting any problem solved and to prepare the ground for your
> own
> >> >> ascent to power.
> >> >> That's why your party prevented the agreement to fix Nova Roma's IT
> >> >> system
> >> >> then and later had to pay a good sum just to get a working voting
> >> system,
> >> >> which fixes about 10% of what the NR IT system used to do. (By the
> >> >> way,
> >> >> I'm
> >> >> really curious to see the new system implemented).
> >> >>
> >> >> But that's just one example: actually most of the crises were
> >> >> escalated
> >> >> by
> >> >> you and your friends. It's not by chance that the decline started
> when
> >> >> you
> >> >> were reinstated in the Senate.
> >> >>
> >> >> But now you have the power, so use it! let's see if your party can
> >> >> stop
> >> >> the
> >> >> decline of NR.
> >> >> You have a chance to prove me, Lentulus and Scholastica wrong by
> >> actually
> >> >> contributing to the seamless working of NR. You don't even have to
> >> >> overcome
> >> >> the same obstacles that we did, because all the opposition has left
> >> >> NR,
> >> >> and
> >> >> those who stayed have no position of power.
> >> >> You shouldn't have to worry about the way people judge the events of
> >> last
> >> >> year. After all, they are quite irrelevant for the present.
> >> >>
> >> >> Vale,
> >> >> Livia
> >> >>
> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> From: "Robert" <robert.woolwine@...>
> >> >> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> >> >> Cc: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> >> >> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 4:32 PM
> >> >> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] No coup? O Rly?
> >> >>
> >> >> Ave!
> >> >>
> >> >> Again my response is brief. Once there is an intercessio, as alby
> >> posted.
> >> >> It's done and any attempt to continue to press on by getting marinus
> >> >> appointed as dictator was a coup attempt. What stopped marinus from
> >> >> accepting the position was that Caesar and I warned him.... Do it and
> >> >> touch
> >> >> nova roma's money and he would be held personally accountable and we
> >> >> would
> >> >> sue him. At that point he decided to seek the advice of an attorney
> >> >> and
> >> >> he
> >> >> was told the office of dictator is incompatible with Maine law! What
> >> that
> >> >> means is that he would be held personally liable!
> >> >>
> >> >> Again attempted coup attempt failed!
> >> >>
> >> >> Had the coup plotters consulted an attorney first before they planned
> >> >> this
> >> >> attempt years ago, and this was planned for over a year...they could
> >> have
> >> >> helped nr by working with us instead of continually escalating each
> >> >> crisis
> >> >> to a new tipping point!
> >> >>
> >> >> Vale
> >> >>
> >> >> Sulla
> >> >>
> >> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >> >>
> >> >> On Aug 19, 2011, at 6:36 AM, "L. Livia Plauta"
> >> >> <livia.plauta@...>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > L. Livia Plauta omnibus sal.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I thank my friend Lentulus for sparing me the work to write on this
> >> >> topic,
> >> >> > by giving a detailed account of what happened and of our opinions
> on
> >> >> > the
> >> >> > matter.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I need to rewrite the following statement of his into correct
> >> >> > English,
> >> >> > though, because it might be misunderstood in its current form.
> >> >> > Lentulus: "Only if we had Marinus as dictator!... I think we were
> >> light
> >> >> > years ahead today as compared to this dead frozen state in which NR
> >> >> > stagnates without leadership... "
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Meaning: "If only we had Marinus as a dictator! ... I think we
> would
> >> be
> >> >> > light years ahead today compared to this dead frozen state in which
> >> >> > NR
> >> >> > stagnates without leadership ..."
> >> >> >
> >> >> > The only point where my opinion differs from Lentulus' is that I
> >> >> > think
> >> >> > Nova
> >> >> > Roma can no longer be "saved" now, in the sense that as an
> >> organization
> >> >> it
> >> >> > is no longer suitable to support the Religio Romana (while it might
> >> >> > still
> >> >> > be
> >> >> > a good place for reenactors who are not interested in Roman religon
> >> >> > to
> >> >> > meet).
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I also thank senator Sulla for forwarding all those posts from the
> >> >> > Senate
> >> >> > list.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > There used to be a "senate seal" in place, that is, senators were
> >> >> > not
> >> >> > allowed to forward to the Main List posts form the Senate, or to
> >> >> > post
> >> >> > about
> >> >> > the discussions going on there.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > So for me it's a surprise, for example, to see the post by
> >> >> > Perusianus,
> >> >> who
> >> >> > usually doesn't post at all in the NR lists. Of course his
> >> >> > assessment
> >> >> > of
> >> >> > the
> >> >> > situation at the time was correct: most of the Italians had left NR
> >> and
> >> >> > were
> >> >> > happy with their Pomerium organization.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Since then even the last attempt by me and Vindex to keep some
> >> >> > people
> >> >> > interested in NR has failed.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Quintilianus' assessment was also correct:
> >> >> > "Shrinking membership, less and less people who pay taxes and vote.
> >> >> > We are losing great parts of our Spanish, Italian and Latin
> American
> >> >> > citizens. No activity in Britannia and very little in Gallia. Those
> >> >> > who are in Sarmatia and other Eastern European countries are doing
> a
> >> >> > splendid job that gives us hope, but they might also also soon lose
> >> >> > hope, because of how we act and not act."
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Since then there was a mass secession of Sarmatian citizens, who
> >> >> > keep
> >> >> > pursuing their goal of building a temple to Jupiter, but now
> outside
> >> >> > Nova
> >> >> > Roma.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Optime valete,
> >> >> > Livia
> >> >> >
> >> >> > > Lentulus omnibus sal.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > I don't want to waste my time on this discussion since I have
> >> >> > > explained
> >> >> > > my
> >> >> > > point of view several times in this and other mailing lists
> >> >> > > already.
> >> >> But
> >> >> > > as one of the many citizens who applauded the idea of appointing
> >> >> Marinus
> >> >> > > as dictator, I feel it's my moral obligation to comment and to
> >> repeat
> >> >> > > again that what happened last year it was NOT a "coup", and it is
> >> >> > > UTTERLY
> >> >> > > RIDICULOUS, PRETENTIOUS, AND POMPOUS to call it a "coup". But, of
> >> >> > > course,
> >> >> > > all of us must have the right to use the word which fits his
> >> >> > > taste.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > I, Scholastica, Livia - and I know that many other citizens -
> >> >> > > don't
> >> >> > > think
> >> >> > > that an appointment of a constitutional dictator can be labeled
> as
> >> >> > > a
> >> >> > > "coup", especially when it is done in a very serious crisis:
> >> >> > > exactly
> >>
> >> >> > > in
> >> >> > > a
> >> >> > > situation for what it is invented by our Constitution as a means
> >> >> > > of
> >> >> > > solution.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > I don't exactly know what Scholastica or Livia exactly think, but
> >> for
> >> >> me
> >> >> > > what happened last year was an attempt to save Nova Roma from the
> >> >> > > ongoing
> >> >> > > chaos by appointing a dictator, a very legal, constitutional and
> >> >> > > Roman
> >> >> > > thing, and it was initially supported by all senators except 1-2,
> >> >> > > later
> >> >> > > still by the overwhelming majority. Almost everyone wanted the
> >> >> dictator.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > Was this dictator election a pre-organized political action? OF
> >> >> > > COURSE
> >> >> > > it
> >> >> > > was, it had to be, as all well-thought-out political actions are
> >> >> > > pre-organized and conscious actions. I have presonally and
> >> repeatedly
> >> >> > > advocated for appointing a dictator in this very same mailing
> list
> >> >> since
> >> >> > > the beginning of the decline of NR. Many citizens trusted Marinus
> >> and
> >> >> > > I
> >> >> > > still think that he was an example of leadership, and he as a
> >> >> > > senior
> >> >> > > consular and esteemed senator could have introduced the necessary
> >> >> > > reforms
> >> >> > > into NR. For our detriment, and ever growing stagnation, he was
> >> >> > > not
> >> >> > > appointed as dictator and NR is today where it is. Only if we had
> >> >> > > Marinus
> >> >> > > as dictator!... I think we were light years ahead today as
> >> >> > > compared
> >> >> > > to
> >> >> > > this dead frozen state in which NR stagnates without
> leadership...
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > So, what some very colorfully call a "coup d'etate", is viewed by
> >> >> > > many
> >> >> > > others as a heroic attempt to save Nova Roma from the
> >> >> > > internal warrings, stagnation and decline, using the
> >> >> > > constitutional
> >> >> > > option
> >> >> > > appointing a person trusted by most people as dictator.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > Unfortunately, the organizers of this dictator election committed
> >> >> > > an
> >> >> > > error - and this is why I must accept that the appointment was
> >> indeed
> >> >> > > not
> >> >> > > regular, thus not completely lawful.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > Why?
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > The dictator election attempt was executed using legally
> >> questionable
> >> >> > > means, i.e. circumventing Albucius' consular veto by Consul
> >> >> > > Quintilianus'
> >> >> > > convening the senate jointly with the tribunes, which was (and
> >> >> > > still
> >> >> is)
> >> >> > > a
> >> >> > > matter of debate whether it is legal or illegal, but the debate
> >> >> > > was
> >> >> > > officially concluded by the rest of tribunes as illegal - though
> >> >> > > there
> >> >> > > are
> >> >> > > numerous theoretical objections. I, as a law respecting citizen,
> >> >> > > accepted
> >> >> > > the veto of the tribunes, and I still don't question the outcome:
> >> the
> >> >> > > dictator was vetoed. Cn. Marinus Censorius dictator-elect
> accepted
> >> it
> >> >> > > too.
> >> >> > > No dictator entered office.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > That the dictator election failed it was a tragedy, because I
> >> >> > > firmly
> >> >> > > beleive that Marinus as dictator could have stoped the stagnation
> >> >> > > of
> >> >> > > Nova Roma, could have solved our many technical and
> organizational
> >> >> > > problems including our IT problems immediately. Since then very
> >> >> > > few
> >> >> > > improvements was made on NR, and today it seems clearer than ever
> >> >> > > that
> >> >> > > the need for the dictator was fully justified.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > As for the featuring of a dictatorial appointment as a "coup
> >> d'etat",
> >> >> it
> >> >> > > is exaggerating, idiotic and pompous. What was, however, and
> still
> >> is
> >> >> > > a
> >> >> > > proper question regarding those events it is whether the consul
> >> >> > > can
> >> >> > > convene a senate session jointly by the tribunes or not. As it
> >> >> > > came
> >> >> > > out
> >> >> > > Nova Roma did not accept that legal approach, and thus the
> >> >> > > dictator
> >> >> > > was
> >> >> > > not deemed elected properly.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > So, accept that facts:
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > 1) the dictator is a normal and legal solution in NR's
> >> >> > > constitution
> >> >> > > for
> >> >> > > handling crises;
> >> >> > > 2) many Nova Romans and senators wanted that dictator to handle
> >> >> > > the
> >> >> > > crisis
> >> >> > > of last year;
> >> >> > > 3) the intention and purpose with the dictator was legal since
> the
> >> >> > > institution itself is a legal NR institution;
> >> >> > > 4) the authority which was appointing it was legal since it's the
> >> >> > > prerogative of the senate, and it was the senate which was
> >> >> > > electing
> >> >> > > Marinus;
> >> >> > > 5) HOWEVER, the way of convening the senate (a consul JOINTLY
> with
> >> >> > > the
> >> >> > > tribunes) was dubious, and some accepted it as a legal way of
> >> >> > > convening
> >> >> > > the senate, since our laws did not prohibit it, some thought that
> >> >> > > it
> >> >> was
> >> >> > > not provided by our laws as an option because our laws did not
> >> >> > > explicitely
> >> >> > > allow it.
> >> >> > > 6) This way the whole business of appointing the dictator came to
> >> >> > > a
> >> >> > > legalistic dispute where the other consul and the other tribunes
> >> >> > > vetoed
> >> >> > > it, and finally Marinus himself declined the position.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > End of the story.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > Some are now convinced that Marinus as a dictator would have done
> >> >> > > tyrannic
> >> >> > > actions. Many others are convinced that Marinus would have been a
> >> >> > > true
> >> >> > > healer of our illnesses and a fair and just leader. Since Marinus
> >> has
> >> >> > > never been installed as dictator all what goes beyond the facts
> >> >> > > are
> >> >> mere
> >> >> > > fantasy. I personally am most convinced that Marinus would have
> >> never
> >> >> > > wanted confrontation with the law, consequently he as dictator
> >> >> > > would
> >> >> > > have
> >> >> > > worked for the benefit of all of NR.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > However, it is not the point of my message. The point of my
> >> >> > > message
> >> >> > > is
> >> >> > > the
> >> >> > > following:
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > We can say that the dictator election was halted and the details
> >> >> > > of
> >> >> > > the
> >> >> > > procedure of convoking the session deemed irregular; BUT no one
> >> >> > > with
> >> >> > > sane
> >> >> > > judgement can call it a "coup d'etat" since the dictator,
> >> >> > > appointed
> >> >> > > by
> >> >> > > the
> >> >> > > senate, is a LEGAL, CONSTITUTIONAL and lawful institution in the
> >> >> > > NR
> >> >> > > Constitution. It can not be called a "coup" what is
> >> >> > > constitutional.
> >> >> > > All
> >> >> > > legal criteria were satisfied, except the bit with the joint
> >> >> > > consular-trinunicial convoking of the senate session, which is a
> >> >> > > matter
> >> >> > > of
> >> >> > > law interpretation, since it is not explicitely forbidden.
> >> >> > > Moreover,
> >> >> > > when
> >> >> > > it was vetoed, the whole procedure was terminated, and the
> >> >> > > dictator
> >> >> > > was
> >> >> > > not installed: consequently no law was violated.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > The conclusion is this: neither Scholastica, nor Livia, nor I are
> >> >> > > denying
> >> >> > > that SOMETHING happaned last year. And I AM confirming that what
> >> >> > > happened
> >> >> > > then it was legally problematic. But what I am saying with
> >> Scholatica
> >> >> > > and
> >> >> > > with others, it is that an office which is constitutional can not
> >> >> > > be
> >> >> > > called a "coup".
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > I will not discuss this topic again: in the archieves you will
> >> >> > > find
> >> >> > > my
> >> >> > > full arguing among the old posts. I know that if you carefully
> >> >> > > think
> >>
> >> >> > > on
> >> >> > > the things what I have written, you will see that there is no
> >> >> > > justification to call last year events as a "coup". So there can
> >> >> > > not
> >>
> >> >> > > be
> >> >> > > a
> >> >> > > justified difference of opinion, unless one is driven purely
> >> >> emotionally
> >> >> > > against the whole issue. Where our opinions can, however, differ
> >> >> > > in
> >> >> > > the
> >> >> > > greatest extent it is whether the intention with the dictator was
> >> >> > > good
> >> >> > > or
> >> >> > > bad. But it is to decide for each citizen individually, since the
> >> >> > > dictatorship, as it came out, never started on.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> ------------------------------------
> >> >>
> >> >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85251 From: Timothy or Stephen Gallagher Date: 2011-08-19
Subject: Re: IT costs and off the self software.
Salvete

"Unfortunately the Magna Mater project did not manage to survive on its own."

That is because it was a fraud! At no time will the Italian government allow a
reconstruction of the temple or even a restoration.

The money Nova Roma has collected should be returned to the donors ASAP.

Valete

Ti. Galerius Paulinus





To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
From: robert.woolwine@...
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 15:35:55 -0700
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] IT costs and off the self software.






Ave,

So, by your deflection of the conversation I take it that you know my
professional assessment is the correct one?

Vale,

Sulla

On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 2:39 PM, L. Livia Plauta <livia.plauta@...>wrote:

> Salve,
> well, the Sodalitas pro Diis (http://prodiis.org ) is no longer connected
> with Nova Roma, so it's no longer an issue. Unfortunately the Magna Mater
> project did not manage to survive on its own.
>
> Vale,
> Livia
>
>
> > Ave,
> >
> > Well if you had a business background Livia the worst thing any business
> > can
> > do is to spend money when it will take a long while to replenish those
> > funds. I have spelled out in the past that had NR spent half of its
> funds
> > on the IT....it would take many many years before that money is
> > replenished.
> >
> > Spending 10k on a buddy of Quintilianus was not a wise investment - nor
> > was
> > the proposal adequate to protect Nova Roma's best interest, since there
> > was
> > no adequate checks or benchmarks to divide up the funds based on a
> > percentage of work. Nor was there any outside bids to determine the
> > feasibility of the work, nor was there adequate means to determine if
> > changes needed to be made to the original agenda item. In other words,
> it
> > was a piss poor proposal.
> >
> > Really? You know that people stopped paying for a fact? Well bully for
> > them. It took NR to gain most of the funds over the course of 13 years.
> > Most of those funds were donated to Nova roma (not based on the tax).
> > This
> > is one of the things that I would like to see changed, but done
> > rationally,
> > not with any hint of favoritism. NR has had enough issues with the MMP
> > and
> > Corviland (prodiis).
> >
> > No more unethical financial arrangements!
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Sulla
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 1:10 PM, L. Livia Plauta
> > <livia.plauta@...>wrote:
> >
> >> **
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Salvete,
> >> well, NR has 20 thousand dollars and is sitting on them without using
> >> them.
> >>
> >> People may wonder why they have to pay taxes if they never get used to
> >> provide services. In fact, I know that this is the reason why many
> people
> >> stopped paying.
> >>
> >> Valete,
> >> Livia
> >>
> >>
> >> > Ave!
> >> >
> >> > This was my problem with Maior...she wanted EVERYTHING..JSTOR...which
> >> > is
> >> > great...she wanted the IT fixed...which is also necessary...and she
> >> wanted
> >> > to pay for Piscinus and Scholastica to attend the Conventus last year
> >> > at
> >> > NR's expense.
> >> >
> >> > Without having a proper, stable and growing tax base....each of those
> >> > things
> >> > are just unreasonable and hopelessly naive.
> >> >
> >> > Scholastica, who did not even have to pay the tax this year,
> complained
> >> > the
> >> > loudest when I tried to work towards getting NR's tax base sufficient
> >> > to
> >> > pay
> >> > for our requirements and fix some of the areas that need to be
> >> > addressed.
> >> > But instead NR, this year, decided to kick the can down the road
> >> > instead
> >> > of
> >> > addressing issues that need to be addressed.
> >> >
> >> > Vale,
> >> >
> >> > Sulla
> >> >
> >> > On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 10:33 AM, Timothy or Stephen Gallagher <
> >> > spqr753@...> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Salvete
> >> >>
> >> >> The reason I voted NOT to spend the amount suggested was that it was
> >> >> $10,000 USD.
> >> >> That was nearly HALF of the funds NR has in the bank.
> >> >> While it would be nice to have custom build IT stuff for NR, Off the
> >> >> self
> >> >> software, if and when available should be used.
> >> >>
> >> >> When I bought and paid for our first year or two of Quicken online it
> >> >> gave
> >> >> us the ability to have a CFO
> >> >> and other financial officers anywhere in the world. It allowed
> >> >> Equestria
> >> >> Iunia Laeca to bring order to our finances.
> >> >> and to use professional services at a fraction of the cost of a paid
> >> CFO.
> >> >>
> >> >> It cost about $400 per year. Off the self is not just cheaper in some
> >> >> ways
> >> >> its just better.
> >> >> The election service I recommended and which the Senate approved is
> >> >> another
> >> >> example of an IT solution that
> >> >> did not cost thousands of dollar.
> >> >>
> >> >> We received thousand and thousand of free IT service from Octavius
> >> >> over
> >> >> the
> >> >> years.
> >> >> There was no way we could have afforded what it really cost him to
> >> >> service
> >> >> our account
> >> >> and to develop the IT structure he created.
> >> >>
> >> >> Unless we find a sugar daddy or mommy for Nova Roma we never will.
> >> >>
> >> >> Valete
> >> >>
> >> >> Ti. Galerius Paulinus
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> >> >> From: livia.plauta@...
> >> >> Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 17:13:01 +0200
> >> >> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] No coup? O Rly?
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Salve Sulla,
> >> >> it was impossible to work with you, because the strategy of you and
> >> >> your
> >> >> friends was to veto anything the magistrates tried in order to
> prevent
> >> >> them
> >> >> from getting any problem solved and to prepare the ground for your
> own
> >> >> ascent to power.
> >> >> That's why your party prevented the agreement to fix Nova Roma's IT
> >> >> system
> >> >> then and later had to pay a good sum just to get a working voting
> >> system,
> >> >> which fixes about 10% of what the NR IT system used to do. (By the
> >> >> way,
> >> >> I'm
> >> >> really curious to see the new system implemented).
> >> >>
> >> >> But that's just one example: actually most of the crises were
> >> >> escalated
> >> >> by
> >> >> you and your friends. It's not by chance that the decline started
> when
> >> >> you
> >> >> were reinstated in the Senate.
> >> >>
> >> >> But now you have the power, so use it! let's see if your party can
> >> >> stop
> >> >> the
> >> >> decline of NR.
> >> >> You have a chance to prove me, Lentulus and Scholastica wrong by
> >> actually
> >> >> contributing to the seamless working of NR. You don't even have to
> >> >> overcome
> >> >> the same obstacles that we did, because all the opposition has left
> >> >> NR,
> >> >> and
> >> >> those who stayed have no position of power.
> >> >> You shouldn't have to worry about the way people judge the events of
> >> last
> >> >> year. After all, they are quite irrelevant for the present.
> >> >>
> >> >> Vale,
> >> >> Livia
> >> >>
> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> From: "Robert" <robert.woolwine@...>
> >> >> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> >> >> Cc: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> >> >> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 4:32 PM
> >> >> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] No coup? O Rly?
> >> >>
> >> >> Ave!
> >> >>
> >> >> Again my response is brief. Once there is an intercessio, as alby
> >> posted.
> >> >> It's done and any attempt to continue to press on by getting marinus
> >> >> appointed as dictator was a coup attempt. What stopped marinus from
> >> >> accepting the position was that Caesar and I warned him.... Do it and
> >> >> touch
> >> >> nova roma's money and he would be held personally accountable and we
> >> >> would
> >> >> sue him. At that point he decided to seek the advice of an attorney
> >> >> and
> >> >> he
> >> >> was told the office of dictator is incompatible with Maine law! What
> >> that
> >> >> means is that he would be held personally liable!
> >> >>
> >> >> Again attempted coup attempt failed!
> >> >>
> >> >> Had the coup plotters consulted an attorney first before they planned
> >> >> this
> >> >> attempt years ago, and this was planned for over a year...they could
> >> have
> >> >> helped nr by working with us instead of continually escalating each
> >> >> crisis
> >> >> to a new tipping point!
> >> >>
> >> >> Vale
> >> >>
> >> >> Sulla
> >> >>
> >> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >> >>
> >> >> On Aug 19, 2011, at 6:36 AM, "L. Livia Plauta"
> >> >> <livia.plauta@...>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > L. Livia Plauta omnibus sal.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I thank my friend Lentulus for sparing me the work to write on this
> >> >> topic,
> >> >> > by giving a detailed account of what happened and of our opinions
> on
> >> >> > the
> >> >> > matter.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I need to rewrite the following statement of his into correct
> >> >> > English,
> >> >> > though, because it might be misunderstood in its current form.
> >> >> > Lentulus: "Only if we had Marinus as dictator!... I think we were
> >> light
> >> >> > years ahead today as compared to this dead frozen state in which NR
> >> >> > stagnates without leadership... "
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Meaning: "If only we had Marinus as a dictator! ... I think we
> would
> >> be
> >> >> > light years ahead today compared to this dead frozen state in which
> >> >> > NR
> >> >> > stagnates without leadership ..."
> >> >> >
> >> >> > The only point where my opinion differs from Lentulus' is that I
> >> >> > think
> >> >> > Nova
> >> >> > Roma can no longer be "saved" now, in the sense that as an
> >> organization
> >> >> it
> >> >> > is no longer suitable to support the Religio Romana (while it might
> >> >> > still
> >> >> > be
> >> >> > a good place for reenactors who are not interested in Roman religon
> >> >> > to
> >> >> > meet).
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I also thank senator Sulla for forwarding all those posts from the
> >> >> > Senate
> >> >> > list.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > There used to be a "senate seal" in place, that is, senators were
> >> >> > not
> >> >> > allowed to forward to the Main List posts form the Senate, or to
> >> >> > post
> >> >> > about
> >> >> > the discussions going on there.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > So for me it's a surprise, for example, to see the post by
> >> >> > Perusianus,
> >> >> who
> >> >> > usually doesn't post at all in the NR lists. Of course his
> >> >> > assessment
> >> >> > of
> >> >> > the
> >> >> > situation at the time was correct: most of the Italians had left NR
> >> and
> >> >> > were
> >> >> > happy with their Pomerium organization.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Since then even the last attempt by me and Vindex to keep some
> >> >> > people
> >> >> > interested in NR has failed.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Quintilianus' assessment was also correct:
> >> >> > "Shrinking membership, less and less people who pay taxes and vote.
> >> >> > We are losing great parts of our Spanish, Italian and Latin
> American
> >> >> > citizens. No activity in Britannia and very little in Gallia. Those
> >> >> > who are in Sarmatia and other Eastern European countries are doing
> a
> >> >> > splendid job that gives us hope, but they might also also soon lose
> >> >> > hope, because of how we act and not act."
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Since then there was a mass secession of Sarmatian citizens, who
> >> >> > keep
> >> >> > pursuing their goal of building a temple to Jupiter, but now
> outside
> >> >> > Nova
> >> >> > Roma.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Optime valete,
> >> >> > Livia
> >> >> >
> >> >> > > Lentulus omnibus sal.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > I don't want to waste my time on this discussion since I have
> >> >> > > explained
> >> >> > > my
> >> >> > > point of view several times in this and other mailing lists
> >> >> > > already.
> >> >> But
> >> >> > > as one of the many citizens who applauded the idea of appointing
> >> >> Marinus
> >> >> > > as dictator, I feel it's my moral obligation to comment and to
> >> repeat
> >> >> > > again that what happened last year it was NOT a "coup", and it is
> >> >> > > UTTERLY
> >> >> > > RIDICULOUS, PRETENTIOUS, AND POMPOUS to call it a "coup". But, of
> >> >> > > course,
> >> >> > > all of us must have the right to use the word which fits his
> >> >> > > taste.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > I, Scholastica, Livia - and I know that many other citizens -
> >> >> > > don't
> >> >> > > think
> >> >> > > that an appointment of a constitutional dictator can be labeled
> as
> >> >> > > a
> >> >> > > "coup", especially when it is done in a very serious crisis:
> >> >> > > exactly
> >>
> >> >> > > in
> >> >> > > a
> >> >> > > situation for what it is invented by our Constitution as a means
> >> >> > > of
> >> >> > > solution.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > I don't exactly know what Scholastica or Livia exactly think, but
> >> for
> >> >> me
> >> >> > > what happened last year was an attempt to save Nova Roma from the
> >> >> > > ongoing
> >> >> > > chaos by appointing a dictator, a very legal, constitutional and
> >> >> > > Roman
> >> >> > > thing, and it was initially supported by all senators except 1-2,
> >> >> > > later
> >> >> > > still by the overwhelming majority. Almost everyone wanted the
> >> >> dictator.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > Was this dictator election a pre-organized political action? OF
> >> >> > > COURSE
> >> >> > > it
> >> >> > > was, it had to be, as all well-thought-out political actions are
> >> >> > > pre-organized and conscious actions. I have presonally and
> >> repeatedly
> >> >> > > advocated for appointing a dictator in this very same mailing
> list
> >> >> since
> >> >> > > the beginning of the decline of NR. Many citizens trusted Marinus
> >> and
> >> >> > > I
> >> >> > > still think that he was an example of leadership, and he as a
> >> >> > > senior
> >> >> > > consular and esteemed senator could have introduced the necessary
> >> >> > > reforms
> >> >> > > into NR. For our detriment, and ever growing stagnation, he was
> >> >> > > not
> >> >> > > appointed as dictator and NR is today where it is. Only if we had
> >> >> > > Marinus
> >> >> > > as dictator!... I think we were light years ahead today as
> >> >> > > compared
> >> >> > > to
> >> >> > > this dead frozen state in which NR stagnates without
> leadership...
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > So, what some very colorfully call a "coup d'etate", is viewed by
> >> >> > > many
> >> >> > > others as a heroic attempt to save Nova Roma from the
> >> >> > > internal warrings, stagnation and decline, using the
> >> >> > > constitutional
> >> >> > > option
> >> >> > > appointing a person trusted by most people as dictator.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > Unfortunately, the organizers of this dictator election committed
> >> >> > > an
> >> >> > > error - and this is why I must accept that the appointment was
> >> indeed
> >> >> > > not
> >> >> > > regular, thus not completely lawful.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > Why?
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > The dictator election attempt was executed using legally
> >> questionable
> >> >> > > means, i.e. circumventing Albucius' consular veto by Consul
> >> >> > > Quintilianus'
> >> >> > > convening the senate jointly with the tribunes, which was (and
> >> >> > > still
> >> >> is)
> >> >> > > a
> >> >> > > matter of debate whether it is legal or illegal, but the debate
> >> >> > > was
> >> >> > > officially concluded by the rest of tribunes as illegal - though
> >> >> > > there
> >> >> > > are
> >> >> > > numerous theoretical objections. I, as a law respecting citizen,
> >> >> > > accepted
> >> >> > > the veto of the tribunes, and I still don't question the outcome:
> >> the
> >> >> > > dictator was vetoed. Cn. Marinus Censorius dictator-elect
> accepted
> >> it
> >> >> > > too.
> >> >> > > No dictator entered office.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > That the dictator election failed it was a tragedy, because I
> >> >> > > firmly
> >> >> > > beleive that Marinus as dictator could have stoped the stagnation
> >> >> > > of
> >> >> > > Nova Roma, could have solved our many technical and
> organizational
> >> >> > > problems including our IT problems immediately. Since then very
> >> >> > > few
> >> >> > > improvements was made on NR, and today it seems clearer than ever
> >> >> > > that
> >> >> > > the need for the dictator was fully justified.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > As for the featuring of a dictatorial appointment as a "coup
> >> d'etat",
> >> >> it
> >> >> > > is exaggerating, idiotic and pompous. What was, however, and
> still
> >> is
> >> >> > > a
> >> >> > > proper question regarding those events it is whether the consul
> >> >> > > can
> >> >> > > convene a senate session jointly by the tribunes or not. As it
> >> >> > > came
> >> >> > > out
> >> >> > > Nova Roma did not accept that legal approach, and thus the
> >> >> > > dictator
> >> >> > > was
> >> >> > > not deemed elected properly.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > So, accept that facts:
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > 1) the dictator is a normal and legal solution in NR's
> >> >> > > constitution
> >> >> > > for
> >> >> > > handling crises;
> >> >> > > 2) many Nova Romans and senators wanted that dictator to handle
> >> >> > > the
> >> >> > > crisis
> >> >> > > of last year;
> >> >> > > 3) the intention and purpose with the dictator was legal since
> the
> >> >> > > institution itself is a legal NR institution;
> >> >> > > 4) the authority which was appointing it was legal since it's the
> >> >> > > prerogative of the senate, and it was the senate which was
> >> >> > > electing
> >> >> > > Marinus;
> >> >> > > 5) HOWEVER, the way of convening the senate (a consul JOINTLY
> with
> >> >> > > the
> >> >> > > tribunes) was dubious, and some accepted it as a legal way of
> >> >> > > convening
> >> >> > > the senate, since our laws did not prohibit it, some thought that
> >> >> > > it
> >> >> was
> >> >> > > not provided by our laws as an option because our laws did not
> >> >> > > explicitely
> >> >> > > allow it.
> >> >> > > 6) This way the whole business of appointing the dictator came to
> >> >> > > a
> >> >> > > legalistic dispute where the other consul and the other tribunes
> >> >> > > vetoed
> >> >> > > it, and finally Marinus himself declined the position.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > End of the story.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > Some are now convinced that Marinus as a dictator would have done
> >> >> > > tyrannic
> >> >> > > actions. Many others are convinced that Marinus would have been a
> >> >> > > true
> >> >> > > healer of our illnesses and a fair and just leader. Since Marinus
> >> has
> >> >> > > never been installed as dictator all what goes beyond the facts
> >> >> > > are
> >> >> mere
> >> >> > > fantasy. I personally am most convinced that Marinus would have
> >> never
> >> >> > > wanted confrontation with the law, consequently he as dictator
> >> >> > > would
> >> >> > > have
> >> >> > > worked for the benefit of all of NR.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > However, it is not the point of my message. The point of my
> >> >> > > message
> >> >> > > is
> >> >> > > the
> >> >> > > following:
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > We can say that the dictator election was halted and the details
> >> >> > > of
> >> >> > > the
> >> >> > > procedure of convoking the session deemed irregular; BUT no one
> >> >> > > with
> >> >> > > sane
> >> >> > > judgement can call it a "coup d'etat" since the dictator,
> >> >> > > appointed
> >> >> > > by
> >> >> > > the
> >> >> > > senate, is a LEGAL, CONSTITUTIONAL and lawful institution in the
> >> >> > > NR
> >> >> > > Constitution. It can not be called a "coup" what is
> >> >> > > constitutional.
> >> >> > > All
> >> >> > > legal criteria were satisfied, except the bit with the joint
> >> >> > > consular-trinunicial convoking of the senate session, which is a
> >> >> > > matter
> >> >> > > of
> >> >> > > law interpretation, since it is not explicitely forbidden.
> >> >> > > Moreover,
> >> >> > > when
> >> >> > > it was vetoed, the whole procedure was terminated, and the
> >> >> > > dictator
> >> >> > > was
> >> >> > > not installed: consequently no law was violated.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > The conclusion is this: neither Scholastica, nor Livia, nor I are
> >> >> > > denying
> >> >> > > that SOMETHING happaned last year. And I AM confirming that what
> >> >> > > happened
> >> >> > > then it was legally problematic. But what I am saying with
> >> Scholatica
> >> >> > > and
> >> >> > > with others, it is that an office which is constitutional can not
> >> >> > > be
> >> >> > > called a "coup".
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > I will not discuss this topic again: in the archieves you will
> >> >> > > find
> >> >> > > my
> >> >> > > full arguing among the old posts. I know that if you carefully
> >> >> > > think
> >>
> >> >> > > on
> >> >> > > the things what I have written, you will see that there is no
> >> >> > > justification to call last year events as a "coup". So there can
> >> >> > > not
> >>
> >> >> > > be
> >> >> > > a
> >> >> > > justified difference of opinion, unless one is driven purely
> >> >> emotionally
> >> >> > > against the whole issue. Where our opinions can, however, differ
> >> >> > > in
> >> >> > > the
> >> >> > > greatest extent it is whether the intention with the dictator was
> >> >> > > good
> >> >> > > or
> >> >> > > bad. But it is to decide for each citizen individually, since the
> >> >> > > dictatorship, as it came out, never started on.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> ------------------------------------
> >> >>
> >> >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85252 From: Q Caecilius Metellus Date: 2011-08-20
Subject: Re: IT costs and off the self software.
Q Caecilius Metellus L Cornelio Sullae legato ad aerarium curandum apud
Quirites s.d.

> Well if you had a business background Livia the worst thing any
> business can do is to spend money when it will take a long while to
> replenish those funds. I have spelled out in the past that had NR
> spent half of its funds on the IT....it would take many many years
> before that money is replenished.

Non sequitur. Livia did not, in the message to which
the above is a response, make such a statement as that we should spend
the entirety, or even half, or, in fact, any portion of the treasury on
any specific 'project'. In point of fact, her statement was quite
direct, and one with which I have to agree, if not by understanding
consumer psychology then by simple logic. Paraphrased, her statement
was to the effect that people are less willing to give when nothing
will be gained from it.

So, if we want people to give money, we have to make sure they get
something in return. We want people to give money, give them, as C
Valeria once noted, a welcome kit. We want people to give money, give
them a website where the available features work more often than not.
We want people to give money, show them, clearly and unquestionably,
that the money is going to accomplish something.

Plauta, I suspect, would be more than willing to correct me if I've
misunderstood, but I gather that the above is, in concept, the point
that was being made. If it comes to be the case that I've well
understood her, I agree with her point entirely.

Now, none of this needs to be terribly expensive either. If, for
example, we set the membership rate at a (again, for example) flat 25
(insert currency of choice), and in return for paying that fee, one
got a subscription to an annual, semi-annual, or even quarterly journal
of sorts that cost 5 (insert currency) for each subscription, we retain
80 percent of that donation. There are no shortage of things that can
be done with this either. Aside from the membership package, sorts of
membership cards, etc, there is quite truly no end to what else we
could do. There have been, many times over the years, proposals for
membership certificates/diplomas/et al., most recent to my mind coming
from Ti Galerius. In itself, that could cost a mere pittance. Small
flags, lapel pins, a few coins, whatever. The list goes endlessly.

That, though, could not be the end of it. Sure, we can provide nice
trinkets, but people have to see -- and more importantly, trust -- that
the remainder of the donation is going to something worthy. Of late,
this has not been done, but my experience certainly leads me to more
than just suspect that this is a contributing factor to our inability
to acquire revenue. As someone who has, not infrequently, given money
to various causes, one of the primary things I want to know, and want
to be able to see, is where the money is going: I require knowing that
the money is being put to (good) use. This is something at which Nova
Roma has failed in the past, and continues to do so. But, it is
something that we can change. It requires time, diligence, and most
importantly, follow-through, but it can be done.

> Spending 10k on a buddy of Quintilianus was not a wise investment -
> nor was the proposal adequate to protect Nova Roma's best interest,
> since there was no adequate checks or benchmarks to divide up the
> funds based on a percentage of work. Nor was there any outside bids
> to determine the feasibility of the work, nor was there adequate
> means to determine if changes needed to be made to the original
> agenda item. In other words, it was a piss poor proposal.

Nevermind that the remainder of this train is as much a non sequitur as
the opening paragraph, I'm going to have to ask what the point of this
paragraph is other than to waste time beating on one you dislike.
Sure, the work was to be performed by Mr From, who one can very
reasonably assume was a friend to Quintilianus. I'll even grant you
that there was room for a conflict of interest here, which should have
been investigated. But as a senator, aside from voting against the
proposal, did you state any of the above while the item was under
consideration? Did you ask if there were other bids? If you asked, as
I shall assmume you did, and the answer was that there were not, as I
shall assume was the case, did you inquire as to why there were no
other bids? Did you request that other bids be obtained and presented
to the Senate before such time as might be a vote on the proposal? Did
you attempt to acquire bids yourself? I pose these questions to you
directly, Sulla, but they apply equally across the entirety of the
Senate as it was at the time.

--
May you live in interesting times.
-- Chinese proverb
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85253 From: Diana Octavia Date: 2011-08-20
Subject: Re: IT costs and off the self software.
Well said Tiberius. Some of us remember all of the freebies that Octavius
gave us. Thousands of dolars worth...
Vale,
Diana
----- Original Message -----
From: "Timothy or Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@...>
To: "Nova-Roma" <nova-roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 7:33 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] IT costs and off the self software.


>
> Salvete
>
> The reason I voted NOT to spend the amount suggested was that it was
> $10,000 USD.
> That was nearly HALF of the funds NR has in the bank.
> While it would be nice to have custom build IT stuff for NR, Off the self
> software, if and when available should be used.
>
> When I bought and paid for our first year or two of Quicken online it gave
> us the ability to have a CFO
> and other financial officers anywhere in the world. It allowed Equestria
> Iunia Laeca to bring order to our finances.
> and to use professional services at a fraction of the cost of a paid CFO.
>
> It cost about $400 per year. Off the self is not just cheaper in some ways
> its just better.
> The election service I recommended and which the Senate approved is
> another example of an IT solution that
> did not cost thousands of dollar.
>
> We received thousand and thousand of free IT service from Octavius over
> the years.
> There was no way we could have afforded what it really cost him to service
> our account
> and to develop the IT structure he created.
>
> Unless we find a sugar daddy or mommy for Nova Roma we never will.
>
> Valete
>
> Ti. Galerius Paulinus
>
>
>
>
>
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> From: livia.plauta@...
> Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 17:13:01 +0200
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] No coup? O Rly?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Salve Sulla,
> it was impossible to work with you, because the strategy of you and your
> friends was to veto anything the magistrates tried in order to prevent
> them
> from getting any problem solved and to prepare the ground for your own
> ascent to power.
> That's why your party prevented the agreement to fix Nova Roma's IT system
> then and later had to pay a good sum just to get a working voting system,
> which fixes about 10% of what the NR IT system used to do. (By the way,
> I'm
> really curious to see the new system implemented).
>
> But that's just one example: actually most of the crises were escalated by
> you and your friends. It's not by chance that the decline started when you
> were reinstated in the Senate.
>
> But now you have the power, so use it! let's see if your party can stop
> the
> decline of NR.
> You have a chance to prove me, Lentulus and Scholastica wrong by actually
> contributing to the seamless working of NR. You don't even have to
> overcome
> the same obstacles that we did, because all the opposition has left NR,
> and
> those who stayed have no position of power.
> You shouldn't have to worry about the way people judge the events of last
> year. After all, they are quite irrelevant for the present.
>
> Vale,
> Livia
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert" <robert.woolwine@...>
> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Cc: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 4:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] No coup? O Rly?
>
> Ave!
>
> Again my response is brief. Once there is an intercessio, as alby posted.
> It's done and any attempt to continue to press on by getting marinus
> appointed as dictator was a coup attempt. What stopped marinus from
> accepting the position was that Caesar and I warned him.... Do it and
> touch
> nova roma's money and he would be held personally accountable and we would
> sue him. At that point he decided to seek the advice of an attorney and he
> was told the office of dictator is incompatible with Maine law! What that
> means is that he would be held personally liable!
>
> Again attempted coup attempt failed!
>
> Had the coup plotters consulted an attorney first before they planned this
> attempt years ago, and this was planned for over a year...they could have
> helped nr by working with us instead of continually escalating each crisis
> to a new tipping point!
>
> Vale
>
> Sulla
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Aug 19, 2011, at 6:36 AM, "L. Livia Plauta" <livia.plauta@...>
> wrote:
>
>> L. Livia Plauta omnibus sal.
>>
>> I thank my friend Lentulus for sparing me the work to write on this
>> topic,
>> by giving a detailed account of what happened and of our opinions on the
>> matter.
>>
>> I need to rewrite the following statement of his into correct English,
>> though, because it might be misunderstood in its current form.
>> Lentulus: "Only if we had Marinus as dictator!... I think we were light
>> years ahead today as compared to this dead frozen state in which NR
>> stagnates without leadership... "
>>
>> Meaning: "If only we had Marinus as a dictator! ... I think we would be
>> light years ahead today compared to this dead frozen state in which NR
>> stagnates without leadership ..."
>>
>> The only point where my opinion differs from Lentulus' is that I think
>> Nova
>> Roma can no longer be "saved" now, in the sense that as an organization
>> it
>> is no longer suitable to support the Religio Romana (while it might still
>> be
>> a good place for reenactors who are not interested in Roman religon to
>> meet).
>>
>> I also thank senator Sulla for forwarding all those posts from the Senate
>> list.
>>
>> There used to be a "senate seal" in place, that is, senators were not
>> allowed to forward to the Main List posts form the Senate, or to post
>> about
>> the discussions going on there.
>>
>> So for me it's a surprise, for example, to see the post by Perusianus,
>> who
>> usually doesn't post at all in the NR lists. Of course his assessment of
>> the
>> situation at the time was correct: most of the Italians had left NR and
>> were
>> happy with their Pomerium organization.
>>
>> Since then even the last attempt by me and Vindex to keep some people
>> interested in NR has failed.
>>
>> Quintilianus' assessment was also correct:
>> "Shrinking membership, less and less people who pay taxes and vote.
>> We are losing great parts of our Spanish, Italian and Latin American
>> citizens. No activity in Britannia and very little in Gallia. Those
>> who are in Sarmatia and other Eastern European countries are doing a
>> splendid job that gives us hope, but they might also also soon lose
>> hope, because of how we act and not act."
>>
>> Since then there was a mass secession of Sarmatian citizens, who keep
>> pursuing their goal of building a temple to Jupiter, but now outside Nova
>> Roma.
>>
>> Optime valete,
>> Livia
>>
>> > Lentulus omnibus sal.
>> >
>> > I don't want to waste my time on this discussion since I have explained
>> > my
>> > point of view several times in this and other mailing lists already.
>> > But
>> > as one of the many citizens who applauded the idea of appointing
>> > Marinus
>> > as dictator, I feel it's my moral obligation to comment and to repeat
>> > again that what happened last year it was NOT a "coup", and it is
>> > UTTERLY
>> > RIDICULOUS, PRETENTIOUS, AND POMPOUS to call it a "coup". But, of
>> > course,
>> > all of us must have the right to use the word which fits his taste.
>> >
>> > I, Scholastica, Livia - and I know that many other citizens - don't
>> > think
>> > that an appointment of a constitutional dictator can be labeled as a
>> > "coup", especially when it is done in a very serious crisis: exactly in
>> > a
>> > situation for what it is invented by our Constitution as a means of
>> > solution.
>> >
>> > I don't exactly know what Scholastica or Livia exactly think, but for
>> > me
>> > what happened last year was an attempt to save Nova Roma from the
>> > ongoing
>> > chaos by appointing a dictator, a very legal, constitutional and Roman
>> > thing, and it was initially supported by all senators except 1-2, later
>> > still by the overwhelming majority. Almost everyone wanted the
>> > dictator.
>> >
>> > Was this dictator election a pre-organized political action? OF COURSE
>> > it
>> > was, it had to be, as all well-thought-out political actions are
>> > pre-organized and conscious actions. I have presonally and repeatedly
>> > advocated for appointing a dictator in this very same mailing list
>> > since
>> > the beginning of the decline of NR. Many citizens trusted Marinus and I
>> > still think that he was an example of leadership, and he as a senior
>> > consular and esteemed senator could have introduced the necessary
>> > reforms
>> > into NR. For our detriment, and ever growing stagnation, he was not
>> > appointed as dictator and NR is today where it is. Only if we had
>> > Marinus
>> > as dictator!... I think we were light years ahead today as compared to
>> > this dead frozen state in which NR stagnates without leadership...
>> >
>> > So, what some very colorfully call a "coup d'etate", is viewed by many
>> > others as a heroic attempt to save Nova Roma from the
>> > internal warrings, stagnation and decline, using the constitutional
>> > option
>> > appointing a person trusted by most people as dictator.
>> >
>> > Unfortunately, the organizers of this dictator election committed an
>> > error - and this is why I must accept that the appointment was indeed
>> > not
>> > regular, thus not completely lawful.
>> >
>> > Why?
>> >
>> > The dictator election attempt was executed using legally questionable
>> > means, i.e. circumventing Albucius' consular veto by Consul
>> > Quintilianus'
>> > convening the senate jointly with the tribunes, which was (and still
>> > is)
>> > a
>> > matter of debate whether it is legal or illegal, but the debate was
>> > officially concluded by the rest of tribunes as illegal - though there
>> > are
>> > numerous theoretical objections. I, as a law respecting citizen,
>> > accepted
>> > the veto of the tribunes, and I still don't question the outcome: the
>> > dictator was vetoed. Cn. Marinus Censorius dictator-elect accepted it
>> > too.
>> > No dictator entered office.
>> >
>> > That the dictator election failed it was a tragedy, because I firmly
>> > beleive that Marinus as dictator could have stoped the stagnation of
>> > Nova Roma, could have solved our many technical and organizational
>> > problems including our IT problems immediately. Since then very few
>> > improvements was made on NR, and today it seems clearer than ever that
>> > the need for the dictator was fully justified.
>> >
>> > As for the featuring of a dictatorial appointment as a "coup d'etat",
>> > it
>> > is exaggerating, idiotic and pompous. What was, however, and still is a
>> > proper question regarding those events it is whether the consul can
>> > convene a senate session jointly by the tribunes or not. As it came out
>> > Nova Roma did not accept that legal approach, and thus the dictator was
>> > not deemed elected properly.
>> >
>> > So, accept that facts:
>> >
>> > 1) the dictator is a normal and legal solution in NR's constitution for
>> > handling crises;
>> > 2) many Nova Romans and senators wanted that dictator to handle the
>> > crisis
>> > of last year;
>> > 3) the intention and purpose with the dictator was legal since the
>> > institution itself is a legal NR institution;
>> > 4) the authority which was appointing it was legal since it's the
>> > prerogative of the senate, and it was the senate which was electing
>> > Marinus;
>> > 5) HOWEVER, the way of convening the senate (a consul JOINTLY with the
>> > tribunes) was dubious, and some accepted it as a legal way of convening
>> > the senate, since our laws did not prohibit it, some thought that it
>> > was
>> > not provided by our laws as an option because our laws did not
>> > explicitely
>> > allow it.
>> > 6) This way the whole business of appointing the dictator came to a
>> > legalistic dispute where the other consul and the other tribunes vetoed
>> > it, and finally Marinus himself declined the position.
>> >
>> > End of the story.
>> >
>> > Some are now convinced that Marinus as a dictator would have done
>> > tyrannic
>> > actions. Many others are convinced that Marinus would have been a true
>> > healer of our illnesses and a fair and just leader. Since Marinus has
>> > never been installed as dictator all what goes beyond the facts are
>> > mere
>> > fantasy. I personally am most convinced that Marinus would have never
>> > wanted confrontation with the law, consequently he as dictator would
>> > have
>> > worked for the benefit of all of NR.
>> >
>> > However, it is not the point of my message. The point of my message is
>> > the
>> > following:
>> >
>> > We can say that the dictator election was halted and the details of the
>> > procedure of convoking the session deemed irregular; BUT no one with
>> > sane
>> > judgement can call it a "coup d'etat" since the dictator, appointed by
>> > the
>> > senate, is a LEGAL, CONSTITUTIONAL and lawful institution in the NR
>> > Constitution. It can not be called a "coup" what is constitutional. All
>> > legal criteria were satisfied, except the bit with the joint
>> > consular-trinunicial convoking of the senate session, which is a matter
>> > of
>> > law interpretation, since it is not explicitely forbidden. Moreover,
>> > when
>> > it was vetoed, the whole procedure was terminated, and the dictator was
>> > not installed: consequently no law was violated.
>> >
>> > The conclusion is this: neither Scholastica, nor Livia, nor I are
>> > denying
>> > that SOMETHING happaned last year. And I AM confirming that what
>> > happened
>> > then it was legally problematic. But what I am saying with Scholatica
>> > and
>> > with others, it is that an office which is constitutional can not be
>> > called a "coup".
>> >
>> >
>> > I will not discuss this topic again: in the archieves you will find my
>> > full arguing among the old posts. I know that if you carefully think on
>> > the things what I have written, you will see that there is no
>> > justification to call last year events as a "coup". So there can not be
>> > a
>> > justified difference of opinion, unless one is driven purely
>> > emotionally
>> > against the whole issue. Where our opinions can, however, differ in the
>> > greatest extent it is whether the intention with the dictator was good
>> > or
>> > bad. But it is to decide for each citizen individually, since the
>> > dictatorship, as it came out, never started on.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85254 From: Cn. Iulius Caesar Date: 2011-08-20
Subject: Re: IT costs and off the self software.
Cn. Iulius Caesar Praetor Q. Caecilio Metello sal.

You either have forgotten, or now for some reason have side-lined the fact, that there were attempts made in debates in the Senate, as well as unofficial contacts, to encourage alternative solutions, Octavius for one, another being actually investigating why we were paying for the IT version of the Queen Mary when it was aimed at serving a crew and passengers who could fit in a lifeboat (and a small one).

There was an abject refusal on the part of Quintilianus to entertain any other solution than his pet one. Equally there was no way to force him to seriously investigate any other solution. He decided to ram it through and used the IT issue partially as a justification for the coup attempt.

Until the collapse of the coup and the departure of a number of its adherents, one way or another, there was equally no way to force a vote on alternatives, since the Senate agenda and business are in the hands of the consuls. Both of those last year locked horns, again partly on this issue, and events gathered pace and the IT matter was left on the sidelines.

I can tell you for one, I am not voting for any solution that sees the bulk of Nova Roma's assets invested in a system that only a few can maintain, when as a result we either have to place ourselves in the good graces of amateur technocrats, or pay for its upkeep. we will drain our reserves that way. Sulla's responsibility as CFO is to ensure that sensible proposals are mooted financially and until income picks up and our reserves increase substantially, paying for a bells and whistles package that is both wildly in excess of our needs and beyond the average citizen to maintain is unlikely to be a convincing argument to a number of Senators.

Optime vale




--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Q Caecilius Metellus <q.caecilius.metellus@...> wrote:
>
> Q Caecilius Metellus L Cornelio Sullae legato ad aerarium curandum apud
> Quirites s.d.
>
> > Well if you had a business background Livia the worst thing any
> > business can do is to spend money when it will take a long while to
> > replenish those funds. I have spelled out in the past that had NR
> > spent half of its funds on the IT....it would take many many years
> > before that money is replenished.
>
> Non sequitur. Livia did not, in the message to which
> the above is a response, make such a statement as that we should spend
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85255 From: Gaia Valeria Pulchra Date: 2011-08-20
Subject: Re: IT costs and off the self software.
Salvete Omnes

How to Set Up a Dedicated Web Server For
Free<http://net.tutsplus.com/tutorials/php/how-to-setup-a-dedicated-web-server-for-free/>


Does no one in Nova Roma have a desktop in their den that they could
donate? I have the parts to two or three, and in a 6months to a year i could
build one when Valerianus and I have a little more money. Is there really no
one else here who knows how to use dreamweaver? It doesn't seem like a
world-ending problem to me, we just need to stop talking about the $10,000
proposal and start working on a solution.

Valete Omnes.

"If Danyell Brodd were an architect, she would be Rococo Channel" -
Elizabeth Basset

"There is no love, only proofs of love" - Pierre Reverdy

"The first man to compare the cheeks of a young woman to a rose was
obviously a poet; the first to repeat it was possibly an idiot." -Salvador
Dali



On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 1:14 AM, Cn. Iulius Caesar <
gn_iulius_caesar@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Cn. Iulius Caesar Praetor Q. Caecilio Metello sal.
>
> You either have forgotten, or now for some reason have side-lined the fact,
> that there were attempts made in debates in the Senate, as well as
> unofficial contacts, to encourage alternative solutions, Octavius for one,
> another being actually investigating why we were paying for the IT version
> of the Queen Mary when it was aimed at serving a crew and passengers who
> could fit in a lifeboat (and a small one).
>
> There was an abject refusal on the part of Quintilianus to entertain any
> other solution than his pet one. Equally there was no way to force him to
> seriously investigate any other solution. He decided to ram it through and
> used the IT issue partially as a justification for the coup attempt.
>
> Until the collapse of the coup and the departure of a number of its
> adherents, one way or another, there was equally no way to force a vote on
> alternatives, since the Senate agenda and business are in the hands of the
> consuls. Both of those last year locked horns, again partly on this issue,
> and events gathered pace and the IT matter was left on the sidelines.
>
> I can tell you for one, I am not voting for any solution that sees the bulk
> of Nova Roma's assets invested in a system that only a few can maintain,
> when as a result we either have to place ourselves in the good graces of
> amateur technocrats, or pay for its upkeep. we will drain our reserves that
> way. Sulla's responsibility as CFO is to ensure that sensible proposals are
> mooted financially and until income picks up and our reserves increase
> substantially, paying for a bells and whistles package that is both wildly
> in excess of our needs and beyond the average citizen to maintain is
> unlikely to be a convincing argument to a number of Senators.
>
> Optime vale
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Q Caecilius Metellus
> <q.caecilius.metellus@...> wrote:
> >
> > Q Caecilius Metellus L Cornelio Sullae legato ad aerarium curandum apud
> > Quirites s.d.
> >
> > > Well if you had a business background Livia the worst thing any
> > > business can do is to spend money when it will take a long while to
> > > replenish those funds. I have spelled out in the past that had NR
> > > spent half of its funds on the IT....it would take many many years
> > > before that money is replenished.
> >
> > Non sequitur. Livia did not, in the message to which
> > the above is a response, make such a statement as that we should spend
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85256 From: V. Valerius Volusus Date: 2011-08-20
Subject: Re: IT costs and off the self software.
V.Valerius Volusus omnibus in foro S.P.D.

I use a professionally maintained server as part of my web development
practice (http://lahustudio.com/) and it didn't cost me anything close to
$10k. Setting up a server on a home network is not a very good idea for a
whole bunch of reasons - it is preferable to use one of the many
professional virtual private server providers. As an alternative you can get
professional unlimited hosting / bandwidth etc. for very little expense that
would be sufficient for NR's hosting needs now and very far into the future.
I would recommend Green Geeks (http://www.greengeeks.com/) as a provider (I
used them for my own site hosting), but there is also Blue Host and many
others that could be considered.

Green Geeks and most other providers use a control panel (CPanel) for
maintaining your server, email, sites, urls, etc. and to simple install
options for installing modern CMS systems like Drupal or Joomla. The ideal
is to have a system that allows different web privileges for different users
so that everything can be administered online through a web browser (I
recommend Drupal to provide this).

Has the Senate formed a committee for governing the website? It's not clear
to me who is the responsible body or party to approach with recommendations.
I have been building web communities for NGO's and government agencies for
over ten years, and I'm more than willing to pitch in to help solve the
intolerable web infrastructure issues we have if there is sufficient
leadership will to see this issues fixed. I just need to know who the
primary stakeholders and decision makers are. Using a CMS like Drupal would
reduce the need to rely on a skilled webmaster or technical resource to
achieve user-orientated day-to-day web content updates.

To be honest - I'm really sick of reading all these bitter reminiscences
regarding events of last year, while this year we face very real challenges
that seem to not be addressed. Let's see more positive action and less of
the negative chit-chat, can we?

Valete bene.


On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 4:59 PM, Gaia Valeria Pulchra <
angelshavethephonebox@...> wrote:

> Salvete Omnes
>
> How to Set Up a Dedicated Web Server For
> Free<
> http://net.tutsplus.com/tutorials/php/how-to-setup-a-dedicated-web-server-for-free/
> >
>
>
> Does no one in Nova Roma have a desktop in their den that they could
> donate? I have the parts to two or three, and in a 6months to a year i
> could
> build one when Valerianus and I have a little more money. Is there really
> no
> one else here who knows how to use dreamweaver? It doesn't seem like a
> world-ending problem to me, we just need to stop talking about the $10,000
> proposal and start working on a solution.
>
> Valete Omnes.
>
> "If Danyell Brodd were an architect, she would be Rococo Channel" -
> Elizabeth Basset
>
> "There is no love, only proofs of love" - Pierre Reverdy
>
> "The first man to compare the cheeks of a young woman to a rose was
> obviously a poet; the first to repeat it was possibly an idiot." -Salvador
> Dali
>
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 1:14 AM, Cn. Iulius Caesar <
> gn_iulius_caesar@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Cn. Iulius Caesar Praetor Q. Caecilio Metello sal.
> >
> > You either have forgotten, or now for some reason have side-lined the
> fact,
> > that there were attempts made in debates in the Senate, as well as
> > unofficial contacts, to encourage alternative solutions, Octavius for
> one,
> > another being actually investigating why we were paying for the IT
> version
> > of the Queen Mary when it was aimed at serving a crew and passengers who
> > could fit in a lifeboat (and a small one).
> >
> > There was an abject refusal on the part of Quintilianus to entertain any
> > other solution than his pet one. Equally there was no way to force him to
> > seriously investigate any other solution. He decided to ram it through
> and
> > used the IT issue partially as a justification for the coup attempt.
> >
> > Until the collapse of the coup and the departure of a number of its
> > adherents, one way or another, there was equally no way to force a vote
> on
> > alternatives, since the Senate agenda and business are in the hands of
> the
> > consuls. Both of those last year locked horns, again partly on this
> issue,
> > and events gathered pace and the IT matter was left on the sidelines.
> >
> > I can tell you for one, I am not voting for any solution that sees the
> bulk
> > of Nova Roma's assets invested in a system that only a few can maintain,
> > when as a result we either have to place ourselves in the good graces of
> > amateur technocrats, or pay for its upkeep. we will drain our reserves
> that
> > way. Sulla's responsibility as CFO is to ensure that sensible proposals
> are
> > mooted financially and until income picks up and our reserves increase
> > substantially, paying for a bells and whistles package that is both
> wildly
> > in excess of our needs and beyond the average citizen to maintain is
> > unlikely to be a convincing argument to a number of Senators.
> >
> > Optime vale
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Q Caecilius Metellus
> > <q.caecilius.metellus@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Q Caecilius Metellus L Cornelio Sullae legato ad aerarium curandum apud
> > > Quirites s.d.
> > >
> > > > Well if you had a business background Livia the worst thing any
> > > > business can do is to spend money when it will take a long while to
> > > > replenish those funds. I have spelled out in the past that had NR
> > > > spent half of its funds on the IT....it would take many many years
> > > > before that money is replenished.
> > >
> > > Non sequitur. Livia did not, in the message to which
> > > the above is a response, make such a statement as that we should spend
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85257 From: Gaia Valeria Pulchra Date: 2011-08-20
Subject: Re: IT costs and off the self software.
Salvete,

"I'm really sick of reading all these bitter reminiscences
regarding events of last year, while this year we face very real challenges
that seem to not be addressed. Let's see more positive action and less of
the negative chit-chat, can we?"

BRAVO! I agree with you 110%! And the references you made in that last
message gave you major geek-auctoritas in my eyes. Good on you! Lets move on
and get back to the good stuff!

Valete

"If Danyell Brodd were an architect, she would be Rococo Channel" -
Elizabeth Basset

"There is no love, only proofs of love" - Pierre Reverdy

"The first man to compare the cheeks of a young woman to a rose was
obviously a poet; the first to repeat it was possibly an idiot." -Salvador
Dali



On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 3:33 AM, V. Valerius Volusus <nykcowham@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> V.Valerius Volusus omnibus in foro S.P.D.
>
> I use a professionally maintained server as part of my web development
> practice (http://lahustudio.com/) and it didn't cost me anything close to
> $10k. Setting up a server on a home network is not a very good idea for a
> whole bunch of reasons - it is preferable to use one of the many
> professional virtual private server providers. As an alternative you can
> get
> professional unlimited hosting / bandwidth etc. for very little expense
> that
> would be sufficient for NR's hosting needs now and very far into the
> future.
> I would recommend Green Geeks (http://www.greengeeks.com/) as a provider
> (I
> used them for my own site hosting), but there is also Blue Host and many
> others that could be considered.
>
> Green Geeks and most other providers use a control panel (CPanel) for
> maintaining your server, email, sites, urls, etc. and to simple install
> options for installing modern CMS systems like Drupal or Joomla. The ideal
> is to have a system that allows different web privileges for different
> users
> so that everything can be administered online through a web browser (I
> recommend Drupal to provide this).
>
> Has the Senate formed a committee for governing the website? It's not clear
> to me who is the responsible body or party to approach with
> recommendations.
> I have been building web communities for NGO's and government agencies for
> over ten years, and I'm more than willing to pitch in to help solve the
> intolerable web infrastructure issues we have if there is sufficient
> leadership will to see this issues fixed. I just need to know who the
> primary stakeholders and decision makers are. Using a CMS like Drupal would
> reduce the need to rely on a skilled webmaster or technical resource to
> achieve user-orientated day-to-day web content updates.
>
> To be honest - I'm really sick of reading all these bitter reminiscences
> regarding events of last year, while this year we face very real challenges
> that seem to not be addressed. Let's see more positive action and less of
> the negative chit-chat, can we?
>
> Valete bene.
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 4:59 PM, Gaia Valeria Pulchra <
> angelshavethephonebox@...> wrote:
>
> > Salvete Omnes
> >
> > How to Set Up a Dedicated Web Server For
> > Free<
> >
> http://net.tutsplus.com/tutorials/php/how-to-setup-a-dedicated-web-server-for-free/
>
> > >
> >
> >
> > Does no one in Nova Roma have a desktop in their den that they could
> > donate? I have the parts to two or three, and in a 6months to a year i
> > could
> > build one when Valerianus and I have a little more money. Is there really
> > no
> > one else here who knows how to use dreamweaver? It doesn't seem like a
> > world-ending problem to me, we just need to stop talking about the
> $10,000
> > proposal and start working on a solution.
> >
> > Valete Omnes.
> >
> > "If Danyell Brodd were an architect, she would be Rococo Channel" -
> > Elizabeth Basset
> >
> > "There is no love, only proofs of love" - Pierre Reverdy
> >
> > "The first man to compare the cheeks of a young woman to a rose was
> > obviously a poet; the first to repeat it was possibly an idiot."
> -Salvador
> > Dali
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 1:14 AM, Cn. Iulius Caesar <
> > gn_iulius_caesar@...> wrote:
> >
> > > **
> > >
> > >
> > > Cn. Iulius Caesar Praetor Q. Caecilio Metello sal.
> > >
> > > You either have forgotten, or now for some reason have side-lined the
> > fact,
> > > that there were attempts made in debates in the Senate, as well as
> > > unofficial contacts, to encourage alternative solutions, Octavius for
> > one,
> > > another being actually investigating why we were paying for the IT
> > version
> > > of the Queen Mary when it was aimed at serving a crew and passengers
> who
> > > could fit in a lifeboat (and a small one).
> > >
> > > There was an abject refusal on the part of Quintilianus to entertain
> any
> > > other solution than his pet one. Equally there was no way to force him
> to
> > > seriously investigate any other solution. He decided to ram it through
> > and
> > > used the IT issue partially as a justification for the coup attempt.
> > >
> > > Until the collapse of the coup and the departure of a number of its
> > > adherents, one way or another, there was equally no way to force a vote
> > on
> > > alternatives, since the Senate agenda and business are in the hands of
> > the
> > > consuls. Both of those last year locked horns, again partly on this
> > issue,
> > > and events gathered pace and the IT matter was left on the sidelines.
> > >
> > > I can tell you for one, I am not voting for any solution that sees the
> > bulk
> > > of Nova Roma's assets invested in a system that only a few can
> maintain,
> > > when as a result we either have to place ourselves in the good graces
> of
> > > amateur technocrats, or pay for its upkeep. we will drain our reserves
> > that
> > > way. Sulla's responsibility as CFO is to ensure that sensible proposals
> > are
> > > mooted financially and until income picks up and our reserves increase
> > > substantially, paying for a bells and whistles package that is both
> > wildly
> > > in excess of our needs and beyond the average citizen to maintain is
> > > unlikely to be a convincing argument to a number of Senators.
> > >
> > > Optime vale
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Q Caecilius Metellus
> > > <q.caecilius.metellus@...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Q Caecilius Metellus L Cornelio Sullae legato ad aerarium curandum
> apud
> > > > Quirites s.d.
> > > >
> > > > > Well if you had a business background Livia the worst thing any
> > > > > business can do is to spend money when it will take a long while to
> > > > > replenish those funds. I have spelled out in the past that had NR
> > > > > spent half of its funds on the IT....it would take many many years
> > > > > before that money is replenished.
> > > >
> > > > Non sequitur. Livia did not, in the message to which
> > > > the above is a response, make such a statement as that we should
> spend
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85258 From: V. Valerius Volusus Date: 2011-08-20
Subject: Re: IT costs and off the self software.
Salve Valeria Pulchra et salvete omnes,

I really don't want to sound over critical of those who are clearly still
smarting from some unpleasant experiences. It is only natural for such
events to leave some bruises. However, our ancestors showed us a better way
of dealing with setbacks. When we are pushed down, we get back up, knock off
the dust, remove whatever knocked us down in the first place and then get
back to work again. It seems to me that whether there was a "coup" or just
some folk doing what they thought best at the time is redundant, the
"knock-down" has been removed so now is the time to get back to the ongoing
work of building and expanding a true Roman Respublica. As they say, "the
best revenge is success".

I don't have any money to offer, but I do have plenty of tech. skill, both
consultative and practical development. If we can, as a community, move past
the events of last year and focus on the present then we can prevail and
rebuild for the future. Without a credible web presence and visible activity
it will be very difficult to build up membership, and without membership we
will have no tax revenue, and with no tax revenue no resources to fund
initiatives, and with no initiatives we will have little meaningful activity
- in other words a vicious spiral into decline.

As I understand it C. Cornelius Lentulus was serving as Magister aranearius,
but his term expired and has not been renewed. As I understand, and I may be
wrong, a new MA has not so far been appointed. I can find no documentation
of a governing committee under the Senate, so it is unclear how any web
initiatives can be promoted or approved. This is a situation I am very
familiar with from my own web consulting practice. You have to fix the
organizational issues first to ensure appropriate stakeholders are defined
and established to make appropriate decisions. The technology is actually
the easy part - it's people who are the difficult factor, as in most things
in life :)

Valete bene


On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 6:58 PM, Gaia Valeria Pulchra <
angelshavethephonebox@...> wrote:

> Salvete,
>
> "I'm really sick of reading all these bitter reminiscences
> regarding events of last year, while this year we face very real challenges
> that seem to not be addressed. Let's see more positive action and less of
> the negative chit-chat, can we?"
>
> BRAVO! I agree with you 110%! And the references you made in that last
> message gave you major geek-auctoritas in my eyes. Good on you! Lets move
> on
> and get back to the good stuff!
>
> Valete
>
> "If Danyell Brodd were an architect, she would be Rococo Channel" -
> Elizabeth Basset
>
> "There is no love, only proofs of love" - Pierre Reverdy
>
> "The first man to compare the cheeks of a young woman to a rose was
> obviously a poet; the first to repeat it was possibly an idiot." -Salvador
> Dali
>
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 3:33 AM, V. Valerius Volusus <nykcowham@...
> >wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > V.Valerius Volusus omnibus in foro S.P.D.
> >
> > I use a professionally maintained server as part of my web development
> > practice (http://lahustudio.com/) and it didn't cost me anything close
> to
> > $10k. Setting up a server on a home network is not a very good idea for a
> > whole bunch of reasons - it is preferable to use one of the many
> > professional virtual private server providers. As an alternative you can
> > get
> > professional unlimited hosting / bandwidth etc. for very little expense
> > that
> > would be sufficient for NR's hosting needs now and very far into the
> > future.
> > I would recommend Green Geeks (http://www.greengeeks.com/) as a provider
> > (I
> > used them for my own site hosting), but there is also Blue Host and many
> > others that could be considered.
> >
> > Green Geeks and most other providers use a control panel (CPanel) for
> > maintaining your server, email, sites, urls, etc. and to simple install
> > options for installing modern CMS systems like Drupal or Joomla. The
> ideal
> > is to have a system that allows different web privileges for different
> > users
> > so that everything can be administered online through a web browser (I
> > recommend Drupal to provide this).
> >
> > Has the Senate formed a committee for governing the website? It's not
> clear
> > to me who is the responsible body or party to approach with
> > recommendations.
> > I have been building web communities for NGO's and government agencies
> for
> > over ten years, and I'm more than willing to pitch in to help solve the
> > intolerable web infrastructure issues we have if there is sufficient
> > leadership will to see this issues fixed. I just need to know who the
> > primary stakeholders and decision makers are. Using a CMS like Drupal
> would
> > reduce the need to rely on a skilled webmaster or technical resource to
> > achieve user-orientated day-to-day web content updates.
> >
> > To be honest - I'm really sick of reading all these bitter reminiscences
> > regarding events of last year, while this year we face very real
> challenges
> > that seem to not be addressed. Let's see more positive action and less of
> > the negative chit-chat, can we?
> >
> > Valete bene.
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 4:59 PM, Gaia Valeria Pulchra <
> > angelshavethephonebox@...> wrote:
> >
> > > Salvete Omnes
> > >
> > > How to Set Up a Dedicated Web Server For
> > > Free<
> > >
> >
> http://net.tutsplus.com/tutorials/php/how-to-setup-a-dedicated-web-server-for-free/
> >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Does no one in Nova Roma have a desktop in their den that they could
> > > donate? I have the parts to two or three, and in a 6months to a year i
> > > could
> > > build one when Valerianus and I have a little more money. Is there
> really
> > > no
> > > one else here who knows how to use dreamweaver? It doesn't seem like a
> > > world-ending problem to me, we just need to stop talking about the
> > $10,000
> > > proposal and start working on a solution.
> > >
> > > Valete Omnes.
> > >
> > > "If Danyell Brodd were an architect, she would be Rococo Channel" -
> > > Elizabeth Basset
> > >
> > > "There is no love, only proofs of love" - Pierre Reverdy
> > >
> > > "The first man to compare the cheeks of a young woman to a rose was
> > > obviously a poet; the first to repeat it was possibly an idiot."
> > -Salvador
> > > Dali
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 1:14 AM, Cn. Iulius Caesar <
> > > gn_iulius_caesar@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > > **
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Cn. Iulius Caesar Praetor Q. Caecilio Metello sal.
> > > >
> > > > You either have forgotten, or now for some reason have side-lined the
> > > fact,
> > > > that there were attempts made in debates in the Senate, as well as
> > > > unofficial contacts, to encourage alternative solutions, Octavius for
> > > one,
> > > > another being actually investigating why we were paying for the IT
> > > version
> > > > of the Queen Mary when it was aimed at serving a crew and passengers
> > who
> > > > could fit in a lifeboat (and a small one).
> > > >
> > > > There was an abject refusal on the part of Quintilianus to entertain
> > any
> > > > other solution than his pet one. Equally there was no way to force
> him
> > to
> > > > seriously investigate any other solution. He decided to ram it
> through
> > > and
> > > > used the IT issue partially as a justification for the coup attempt.
> > > >
> > > > Until the collapse of the coup and the departure of a number of its
> > > > adherents, one way or another, there was equally no way to force a
> vote
> > > on
> > > > alternatives, since the Senate agenda and business are in the hands
> of
> > > the
> > > > consuls. Both of those last year locked horns, again partly on this
> > > issue,
> > > > and events gathered pace and the IT matter was left on the sidelines.
> > > >
> > > > I can tell you for one, I am not voting for any solution that sees
> the
> > > bulk
> > > > of Nova Roma's assets invested in a system that only a few can
> > maintain,
> > > > when as a result we either have to place ourselves in the good graces
> > of
> > > > amateur technocrats, or pay for its upkeep. we will drain our
> reserves
> > > that
> > > > way. Sulla's responsibility as CFO is to ensure that sensible
> proposals
> > > are
> > > > mooted financially and until income picks up and our reserves
> increase
> > > > substantially, paying for a bells and whistles package that is both
> > > wildly
> > > > in excess of our needs and beyond the average citizen to maintain is
> > > > unlikely to be a convincing argument to a number of Senators.
> > > >
> > > > Optime vale
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Q Caecilius Metellus
> > > > <q.caecilius.metellus@...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Q Caecilius Metellus L Cornelio Sullae legato ad aerarium curandum
> > apud
> > > > > Quirites s.d.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Well if you had a business background Livia the worst thing any
> > > > > > business can do is to spend money when it will take a long while
> to
> > > > > > replenish those funds. I have spelled out in the past that had NR
> > > > > > spent half of its funds on the IT....it would take many many
> years
> > > > > > before that money is replenished.
> > > > >
> > > > > Non sequitur. Livia did not, in the message to which
> > > > > the above is a response, make such a statement as that we should
> > spend
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85259 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2011-08-20
Subject: Re: IT costs and off the self software.
No, you may deduce that I'm tired of the conversation, and that I have a
life outside of online things.

> Ave,
>
> So, by your deflection of the conversation I take it that you know my
> professional assessment is the correct one?
>
> Vale,
>
> Sulla
>
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 2:39 PM, L. Livia Plauta
> <livia.plauta@...>wrote:
>
>> Salve,
>> well, the Sodalitas pro Diis (http://prodiis.org ) is no longer connected
>> with Nova Roma, so it's no longer an issue. Unfortunately the Magna Mater
>> project did not manage to survive on its own.
>>
>> Vale,
>> Livia
>>
>>
>> > Ave,
>> >
>> > Well if you had a business background Livia the worst thing any
>> > business
>> > can
>> > do is to spend money when it will take a long while to replenish those
>> > funds. I have spelled out in the past that had NR spent half of its
>> funds
>> > on the IT....it would take many many years before that money is
>> > replenished.
>> >
>> > Spending 10k on a buddy of Quintilianus was not a wise investment - nor
>> > was
>> > the proposal adequate to protect Nova Roma's best interest, since there
>> > was
>> > no adequate checks or benchmarks to divide up the funds based on a
>> > percentage of work. Nor was there any outside bids to determine the
>> > feasibility of the work, nor was there adequate means to determine if
>> > changes needed to be made to the original agenda item. In other words,
>> it
>> > was a piss poor proposal.
>> >
>> > Really? You know that people stopped paying for a fact? Well bully
>> > for
>> > them. It took NR to gain most of the funds over the course of 13
>> > years.
>> > Most of those funds were donated to Nova roma (not based on the tax).
>> > This
>> > is one of the things that I would like to see changed, but done
>> > rationally,
>> > not with any hint of favoritism. NR has had enough issues with the MMP
>> > and
>> > Corviland (prodiis).
>> >
>> > No more unethical financial arrangements!
>> >
>> > Vale,
>> >
>> > Sulla
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 1:10 PM, L. Livia Plauta
>> > <livia.plauta@...>wrote:
>> >
>> >> **
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Salvete,
>> >> well, NR has 20 thousand dollars and is sitting on them without using
>> >> them.
>> >>
>> >> People may wonder why they have to pay taxes if they never get used to
>> >> provide services. In fact, I know that this is the reason why many
>> people
>> >> stopped paying.
>> >>
>> >> Valete,
>> >> Livia
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Ave!
>> >> >
>> >> > This was my problem with Maior...she wanted
>> >> > EVERYTHING..JSTOR...which
>> >> > is
>> >> > great...she wanted the IT fixed...which is also necessary...and she
>> >> wanted
>> >> > to pay for Piscinus and Scholastica to attend the Conventus last
>> >> > year
>> >> > at
>> >> > NR's expense.
>> >> >
>> >> > Without having a proper, stable and growing tax base....each of
>> >> > those
>> >> > things
>> >> > are just unreasonable and hopelessly naive.
>> >> >
>> >> > Scholastica, who did not even have to pay the tax this year,
>> complained
>> >> > the
>> >> > loudest when I tried to work towards getting NR's tax base
>> >> > sufficient
>> >> > to
>> >> > pay
>> >> > for our requirements and fix some of the areas that need to be
>> >> > addressed.
>> >> > But instead NR, this year, decided to kick the can down the road
>> >> > instead
>> >> > of
>> >> > addressing issues that need to be addressed.
>> >> >
>> >> > Vale,
>> >> >
>> >> > Sulla
>> >> >
>> >> > On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 10:33 AM, Timothy or Stephen Gallagher <
>> >> > spqr753@...> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Salvete
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The reason I voted NOT to spend the amount suggested was that it
>> >> >> was
>> >> >> $10,000 USD.
>> >> >> That was nearly HALF of the funds NR has in the bank.
>> >> >> While it would be nice to have custom build IT stuff for NR, Off
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> self
>> >> >> software, if and when available should be used.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> When I bought and paid for our first year or two of Quicken online
>> >> >> it
>> >> >> gave
>> >> >> us the ability to have a CFO
>> >> >> and other financial officers anywhere in the world. It allowed
>> >> >> Equestria
>> >> >> Iunia Laeca to bring order to our finances.
>> >> >> and to use professional services at a fraction of the cost of a
>> >> >> paid
>> >> CFO.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> It cost about $400 per year. Off the self is not just cheaper in
>> >> >> some
>> >> >> ways
>> >> >> its just better.
>> >> >> The election service I recommended and which the Senate approved is
>> >> >> another
>> >> >> example of an IT solution that
>> >> >> did not cost thousands of dollar.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> We received thousand and thousand of free IT service from Octavius
>> >> >> over
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> years.
>> >> >> There was no way we could have afforded what it really cost him to
>> >> >> service
>> >> >> our account
>> >> >> and to develop the IT structure he created.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Unless we find a sugar daddy or mommy for Nova Roma we never will.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Valete
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Ti. Galerius Paulinus
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>> >> >> From: livia.plauta@...
>> >> >> Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 17:13:01 +0200
>> >> >> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] No coup? O Rly?
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Salve Sulla,
>> >> >> it was impossible to work with you, because the strategy of you and
>> >> >> your
>> >> >> friends was to veto anything the magistrates tried in order to
>> prevent
>> >> >> them
>> >> >> from getting any problem solved and to prepare the ground for your
>> own
>> >> >> ascent to power.
>> >> >> That's why your party prevented the agreement to fix Nova Roma's IT
>> >> >> system
>> >> >> then and later had to pay a good sum just to get a working voting
>> >> system,
>> >> >> which fixes about 10% of what the NR IT system used to do. (By the
>> >> >> way,
>> >> >> I'm
>> >> >> really curious to see the new system implemented).
>> >> >>
>> >> >> But that's just one example: actually most of the crises were
>> >> >> escalated
>> >> >> by
>> >> >> you and your friends. It's not by chance that the decline started
>> when
>> >> >> you
>> >> >> were reinstated in the Senate.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> But now you have the power, so use it! let's see if your party can
>> >> >> stop
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> decline of NR.
>> >> >> You have a chance to prove me, Lentulus and Scholastica wrong by
>> >> actually
>> >> >> contributing to the seamless working of NR. You don't even have to
>> >> >> overcome
>> >> >> the same obstacles that we did, because all the opposition has left
>> >> >> NR,
>> >> >> and
>> >> >> those who stayed have no position of power.
>> >> >> You shouldn't have to worry about the way people judge the events
>> >> >> of
>> >> last
>> >> >> year. After all, they are quite irrelevant for the present.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Vale,
>> >> >> Livia
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> From: "Robert" <robert.woolwine@...>
>> >> >> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
>> >> >> Cc: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
>> >> >> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 4:32 PM
>> >> >> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] No coup? O Rly?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Ave!
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Again my response is brief. Once there is an intercessio, as alby
>> >> posted.
>> >> >> It's done and any attempt to continue to press on by getting
>> >> >> marinus
>> >> >> appointed as dictator was a coup attempt. What stopped marinus from
>> >> >> accepting the position was that Caesar and I warned him.... Do it
>> >> >> and
>> >> >> touch
>> >> >> nova roma's money and he would be held personally accountable and
>> >> >> we
>> >> >> would
>> >> >> sue him. At that point he decided to seek the advice of an attorney
>> >> >> and
>> >> >> he
>> >> >> was told the office of dictator is incompatible with Maine law!
>> >> >> What
>> >> that
>> >> >> means is that he would be held personally liable!
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Again attempted coup attempt failed!
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Had the coup plotters consulted an attorney first before they
>> >> >> planned
>> >> >> this
>> >> >> attempt years ago, and this was planned for over a year...they
>> >> >> could
>> >> have
>> >> >> helped nr by working with us instead of continually escalating each
>> >> >> crisis
>> >> >> to a new tipping point!
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Vale
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Sulla
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Sent from my iPhone
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Aug 19, 2011, at 6:36 AM, "L. Livia Plauta"
>> >> >> <livia.plauta@...>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > L. Livia Plauta omnibus sal.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > I thank my friend Lentulus for sparing me the work to write on
>> >> >> > this
>> >> >> topic,
>> >> >> > by giving a detailed account of what happened and of our opinions
>> on
>> >> >> > the
>> >> >> > matter.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > I need to rewrite the following statement of his into correct
>> >> >> > English,
>> >> >> > though, because it might be misunderstood in its current form.
>> >> >> > Lentulus: "Only if we had Marinus as dictator!... I think we were
>> >> light
>> >> >> > years ahead today as compared to this dead frozen state in which
>> >> >> > NR
>> >> >> > stagnates without leadership... "
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Meaning: "If only we had Marinus as a dictator! ... I think we
>> would
>> >> be
>> >> >> > light years ahead today compared to this dead frozen state in
>> >> >> > which
>> >> >> > NR
>> >> >> > stagnates without leadership ..."
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > The only point where my opinion differs from Lentulus' is that I
>> >> >> > think
>> >> >> > Nova
>> >> >> > Roma can no longer be "saved" now, in the sense that as an
>> >> organization
>> >> >> it
>> >> >> > is no longer suitable to support the Religio Romana (while it
>> >> >> > might
>> >> >> > still
>> >> >> > be
>> >> >> > a good place for reenactors who are not interested in Roman
>> >> >> > religon
>> >> >> > to
>> >> >> > meet).
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > I also thank senator Sulla for forwarding all those posts from
>> >> >> > the
>> >> >> > Senate
>> >> >> > list.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > There used to be a "senate seal" in place, that is, senators were
>> >> >> > not
>> >> >> > allowed to forward to the Main List posts form the Senate, or to
>> >> >> > post
>> >> >> > about
>> >> >> > the discussions going on there.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > So for me it's a surprise, for example, to see the post by
>> >> >> > Perusianus,
>> >> >> who
>> >> >> > usually doesn't post at all in the NR lists. Of course his
>> >> >> > assessment
>> >> >> > of
>> >> >> > the
>> >> >> > situation at the time was correct: most of the Italians had left
>> >> >> > NR
>> >> and
>> >> >> > were
>> >> >> > happy with their Pomerium organization.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Since then even the last attempt by me and Vindex to keep some
>> >> >> > people
>> >> >> > interested in NR has failed.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Quintilianus' assessment was also correct:
>> >> >> > "Shrinking membership, less and less people who pay taxes and
>> >> >> > vote.
>> >> >> > We are losing great parts of our Spanish, Italian and Latin
>> American
>> >> >> > citizens. No activity in Britannia and very little in Gallia.
>> >> >> > Those
>> >> >> > who are in Sarmatia and other Eastern European countries are
>> >> >> > doing
>> a
>> >> >> > splendid job that gives us hope, but they might also also soon
>> >> >> > lose
>> >> >> > hope, because of how we act and not act."
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Since then there was a mass secession of Sarmatian citizens, who
>> >> >> > keep
>> >> >> > pursuing their goal of building a temple to Jupiter, but now
>> outside
>> >> >> > Nova
>> >> >> > Roma.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Optime valete,
>> >> >> > Livia
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > > Lentulus omnibus sal.
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > I don't want to waste my time on this discussion since I have
>> >> >> > > explained
>> >> >> > > my
>> >> >> > > point of view several times in this and other mailing lists
>> >> >> > > already.
>> >> >> But
>> >> >> > > as one of the many citizens who applauded the idea of
>> >> >> > > appointing
>> >> >> Marinus
>> >> >> > > as dictator, I feel it's my moral obligation to comment and to
>> >> repeat
>> >> >> > > again that what happened last year it was NOT a "coup", and it
>> >> >> > > is
>> >> >> > > UTTERLY
>> >> >> > > RIDICULOUS, PRETENTIOUS, AND POMPOUS to call it a "coup". But,
>> >> >> > > of
>> >> >> > > course,
>> >> >> > > all of us must have the right to use the word which fits his
>> >> >> > > taste.
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > I, Scholastica, Livia - and I know that many other citizens -
>> >> >> > > don't
>> >> >> > > think
>> >> >> > > that an appointment of a constitutional dictator can be labeled
>> as
>> >> >> > > a
>> >> >> > > "coup", especially when it is done in a very serious crisis:
>> >> >> > > exactly
>> >>
>> >> >> > > in
>> >> >> > > a
>> >> >> > > situation for what it is invented by our Constitution as a
>> >> >> > > means
>> >> >> > > of
>> >> >> > > solution.
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > I don't exactly know what Scholastica or Livia exactly think,
>> >> >> > > but
>> >> for
>> >> >> me
>> >> >> > > what happened last year was an attempt to save Nova Roma from
>> >> >> > > the
>> >> >> > > ongoing
>> >> >> > > chaos by appointing a dictator, a very legal, constitutional
>> >> >> > > and
>> >> >> > > Roman
>> >> >> > > thing, and it was initially supported by all senators except
>> >> >> > > 1-2,
>> >> >> > > later
>> >> >> > > still by the overwhelming majority. Almost everyone wanted the
>> >> >> dictator.
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > Was this dictator election a pre-organized political action? OF
>> >> >> > > COURSE
>> >> >> > > it
>> >> >> > > was, it had to be, as all well-thought-out political actions
>> >> >> > > are
>> >> >> > > pre-organized and conscious actions. I have presonally and
>> >> repeatedly
>> >> >> > > advocated for appointing a dictator in this very same mailing
>> list
>> >> >> since
>> >> >> > > the beginning of the decline of NR. Many citizens trusted
>> >> >> > > Marinus
>> >> and
>> >> >> > > I
>> >> >> > > still think that he was an example of leadership, and he as a
>> >> >> > > senior
>> >> >> > > consular and esteemed senator could have introduced the
>> >> >> > > necessary
>> >> >> > > reforms
>> >> >> > > into NR. For our detriment, and ever growing stagnation, he was
>> >> >> > > not
>> >> >> > > appointed as dictator and NR is today where it is. Only if we
>> >> >> > > had
>> >> >> > > Marinus
>> >> >> > > as dictator!... I think we were light years ahead today as
>> >> >> > > compared
>> >> >> > > to
>> >> >> > > this dead frozen state in which NR stagnates without
>> leadership...
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > So, what some very colorfully call a "coup d'etate", is viewed
>> >> >> > > by
>> >> >> > > many
>> >> >> > > others as a heroic attempt to save Nova Roma from the
>> >> >> > > internal warrings, stagnation and decline, using the
>> >> >> > > constitutional
>> >> >> > > option
>> >> >> > > appointing a person trusted by most people as dictator.
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > Unfortunately, the organizers of this dictator election
>> >> >> > > committed
>> >> >> > > an
>> >> >> > > error - and this is why I must accept that the appointment was
>> >> indeed
>> >> >> > > not
>> >> >> > > regular, thus not completely lawful.
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > Why?
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > The dictator election attempt was executed using legally
>> >> questionable
>> >> >> > > means, i.e. circumventing Albucius' consular veto by Consul
>> >> >> > > Quintilianus'
>> >> >> > > convening the senate jointly with the tribunes, which was (and
>> >> >> > > still
>> >> >> is)
>> >> >> > > a
>> >> >> > > matter of debate whether it is legal or illegal, but the debate
>> >> >> > > was
>> >> >> > > officially concluded by the rest of tribunes as illegal -
>> >> >> > > though
>> >> >> > > there
>> >> >> > > are
>> >> >> > > numerous theoretical objections. I, as a law respecting
>> >> >> > > citizen,
>> >> >> > > accepted
>> >> >> > > the veto of the tribunes, and I still don't question the
>> >> >> > > outcome:
>> >> the
>> >> >> > > dictator was vetoed. Cn. Marinus Censorius dictator-elect
>> accepted
>> >> it
>> >> >> > > too.
>> >> >> > > No dictator entered office.
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > That the dictator election failed it was a tragedy, because I
>> >> >> > > firmly
>> >> >> > > beleive that Marinus as dictator could have stoped the
>> >> >> > > stagnation
>> >> >> > > of
>> >> >> > > Nova Roma, could have solved our many technical and
>> organizational
>> >> >> > > problems including our IT problems immediately. Since then very
>> >> >> > > few
>> >> >> > > improvements was made on NR, and today it seems clearer than
>> >> >> > > ever
>> >> >> > > that
>> >> >> > > the need for the dictator was fully justified.
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > As for the featuring of a dictatorial appointment as a "coup
>> >> d'etat",
>> >> >> it
>> >> >> > > is exaggerating, idiotic and pompous. What was, however, and
>> still
>> >> is
>> >> >> > > a
>> >> >> > > proper question regarding those events it is whether the consul
>> >> >> > > can
>> >> >> > > convene a senate session jointly by the tribunes or not. As it
>> >> >> > > came
>> >> >> > > out
>> >> >> > > Nova Roma did not accept that legal approach, and thus the
>> >> >> > > dictator
>> >> >> > > was
>> >> >> > > not deemed elected properly.
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > So, accept that facts:
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > 1) the dictator is a normal and legal solution in NR's
>> >> >> > > constitution
>> >> >> > > for
>> >> >> > > handling crises;
>> >> >> > > 2) many Nova Romans and senators wanted that dictator to handle
>> >> >> > > the
>> >> >> > > crisis
>> >> >> > > of last year;
>> >> >> > > 3) the intention and purpose with the dictator was legal since
>> the
>> >> >> > > institution itself is a legal NR institution;
>> >> >> > > 4) the authority which was appointing it was legal since it's
>> >> >> > > the
>> >> >> > > prerogative of the senate, and it was the senate which was
>> >> >> > > electing
>> >> >> > > Marinus;
>> >> >> > > 5) HOWEVER, the way of convening the senate (a consul JOINTLY
>> with
>> >> >> > > the
>> >> >> > > tribunes) was dubious, and some accepted it as a legal way of
>> >> >> > > convening
>> >> >> > > the senate, since our laws did not prohibit it, some thought
>> >> >> > > that
>> >> >> > > it
>> >> >> was
>> >> >> > > not provided by our laws as an option because our laws did not
>> >> >> > > explicitely
>> >> >> > > allow it.
>> >> >> > > 6) This way the whole business of appointing the dictator came
>> >> >> > > to
>> >> >> > > a
>> >> >> > > legalistic dispute where the other consul and the other
>> >> >> > > tribunes
>> >> >> > > vetoed
>> >> >> > > it, and finally Marinus himself declined the position.
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > End of the story.
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > Some are now convinced that Marinus as a dictator would have
>> >> >> > > done
>> >> >> > > tyrannic
>> >> >> > > actions. Many others are convinced that Marinus would have been
>> >> >> > > a
>> >> >> > > true
>> >> >> > > healer of our illnesses and a fair and just leader. Since
>> >> >> > > Marinus
>> >> has
>> >> >> > > never been installed as dictator all what goes beyond the facts
>> >> >> > > are
>> >> >> mere
>> >> >> > > fantasy. I personally am most convinced that Marinus would have
>> >> never
>> >> >> > > wanted confrontation with the law, consequently he as dictator
>> >> >> > > would
>> >> >> > > have
>> >> >> > > worked for the benefit of all of NR.
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > However, it is not the point of my message. The point of my
>> >> >> > > message
>> >> >> > > is
>> >> >> > > the
>> >> >> > > following:
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > We can say that the dictator election was halted and the
>> >> >> > > details
>> >> >> > > of
>> >> >> > > the
>> >> >> > > procedure of convoking the session deemed irregular; BUT no one
>> >> >> > > with
>> >> >> > > sane
>> >> >> > > judgement can call it a "coup d'etat" since the dictator,
>> >> >> > > appointed
>> >> >> > > by
>> >> >> > > the
>> >> >> > > senate, is a LEGAL, CONSTITUTIONAL and lawful institution in
>> >> >> > > the
>> >> >> > > NR
>> >> >> > > Constitution. It can not be called a "coup" what is
>> >> >> > > constitutional.
>> >> >> > > All
>> >> >> > > legal criteria were satisfied, except the bit with the joint
>> >> >> > > consular-trinunicial convoking of the senate session, which is
>> >> >> > > a
>> >> >> > > matter
>> >> >> > > of
>> >> >> > > law interpretation, since it is not explicitely forbidden.
>> >> >> > > Moreover,
>> >> >> > > when
>> >> >> > > it was vetoed, the whole procedure was terminated, and the
>> >> >> > > dictator
>> >> >> > > was
>> >> >> > > not installed: consequently no law was violated.
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > The conclusion is this: neither Scholastica, nor Livia, nor I
>> >> >> > > are
>> >> >> > > denying
>> >> >> > > that SOMETHING happaned last year. And I AM confirming that
>> >> >> > > what
>> >> >> > > happened
>> >> >> > > then it was legally problematic. But what I am saying with
>> >> Scholatica
>> >> >> > > and
>> >> >> > > with others, it is that an office which is constitutional can
>> >> >> > > not
>> >> >> > > be
>> >> >> > > called a "coup".
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > I will not discuss this topic again: in the archieves you will
>> >> >> > > find
>> >> >> > > my
>> >> >> > > full arguing among the old posts. I know that if you carefully
>> >> >> > > think
>> >>
>> >> >> > > on
>> >> >> > > the things what I have written, you will see that there is no
>> >> >> > > justification to call last year events as a "coup". So there
>> >> >> > > can
>> >> >> > > not
>> >>
>> >> >> > > be
>> >> >> > > a
>> >> >> > > justified difference of opinion, unless one is driven purely
>> >> >> emotionally
>> >> >> > > against the whole issue. Where our opinions can, however,
>> >> >> > > differ
>> >> >> > > in
>> >> >> > > the
>> >> >> > > greatest extent it is whether the intention with the dictator
>> >> >> > > was
>> >> >> > > good
>> >> >> > > or
>> >> >> > > bad. But it is to decide for each citizen individually, since
>> >> >> > > the
>> >> >> > > dictatorship, as it came out, never started on.
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ------------------------------------
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Yahoo! Groups Links
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------
>> >
>> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85260 From: L. Livia Plauta Date: 2011-08-20
Subject: Re: IT costs and off the self software.
L. Livia Plauta onibus sal.
This is the day when I find myself agreeing with Metellus!
>
> So, if we want people to give money, we have to make sure they get
> something in return. We want people to give money, give them, as C
> Valeria once noted, a welcome kit. We want people to give money, give
> them a website where the available features work more often than not.
> We want people to give money, show them, clearly and unquestionably,
> that the money is going to accomplish something.
>
> Plauta, I suspect, would be more than willing to correct me if I've
> misunderstood, but I gather that the above is, in concept, the point
> that was being made. If it comes to be the case that I've well
> understood her, I agree with her point entirely.
>
> Now, none of this needs to be terribly expensive either. If, for
> example, we set the membership rate at a (again, for example) flat 25
> (insert currency of choice), and in return for paying that fee, one
> got a subscription to an annual, semi-annual, or even quarterly journal
> of sorts that cost 5 (insert currency) for each subscription, we retain
> 80 percent of that donation. There are no shortage of things that can
> be done with this either. Aside from the membership package, sorts of
> membership cards, etc, there is quite truly no end to what else we
> could do. There have been, many times over the years, proposals for
> membership certificates/diplomas/et al., most recent to my mind coming
> from Ti Galerius. In itself, that could cost a mere pittance. Small
> flags, lapel pins, a few coins, whatever. The list goes endlessly.
>
> That, though, could not be the end of it. Sure, we can provide nice
> trinkets, but people have to see -- and more importantly, trust -- that
> the remainder of the donation is going to something worthy. Of late,
> this has not been done, but my experience certainly leads me to more
> than just suspect that this is a contributing factor to our inability
> to acquire revenue. As someone who has, not infrequently, given money
> to various causes, one of the primary things I want to know, and want
> to be able to see, is where the money is going: I require knowing that
> the money is being put to (good) use. This is something at which Nova
> Roma has failed in the past, and continues to do so. But, it is
> something that we can change. It requires time, diligence, and most
> importantly, follow-through, but it can be done.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85261 From: Cn. Iulius Caesar Date: 2011-08-20
Subject: Re: IT costs and off the self software.
Salve Voluse.

Your generous offer joins a list of those made by others with similar qualifications through the years in Nova Roma, and who are no longer with us. Were we to place all our IT needs in your hands to solve, that would work well until you left NR or gave up on serving our IT needs. At that point we have to scrabble around again.

The solution is to assess our real needs, determine what software exists That can be both adapted to need and yet maintained with minimal technical knowledge, how many of our tools need to be interactive and online.

However, we may yet have to place our head again in the lions mouth, so thank you for your offer.

Vale bene
Cn. Iulius Caesar

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "V. Valerius Volusus" <nykcowham@...> wrote:
>
> V.Valerius Volusus omnibus in foro S.P.D.
>
> I use a professionally maintained server as part of my web development
> practice (http://lahustudio.com/) and it didn't cost me anything close to
> $10k. Setting up a server on a home network is not a very good idea for a
> whole bunch of reasons - it is preferable to use one of the many
> professional virtual private server providers. As an alternative you can get
> professional unlimited hosting / bandwidth etc. for very little expense that
> would be sufficient for NR's hosting needs now and very far into the future.
> I would recommend Green Geeks (http://www.greengeeks.com/) as a provider (I
> used them for my own site hosting), but there is also Blue Host and many
> others that could be considered.
>
> Green Geeks and most other providers use a control panel (CPanel) for
> maintaining your server, email, sites, urls, etc. and to simple install
> options for installing modern CMS systems like Drupal or Joomla. The ideal
> is to have a system that allows different web privileges for different users
> so that everything can be administered online through a web browser (I
> recommend Drupal to provide this).
>
> Has the Senate formed a committee for governing the website? It's not clear
> to me who is the responsible body or party to approach with recommendations.
> I have been building web communities for NGO's and government agencies for
> over ten years, and I'm more than willing to pitch in to help solve the
> intolerable web infrastructure issues we have if there is sufficient
> leadership will to see this issues fixed. I just need to know who the
> primary stakeholders and decision makers are. Using a CMS like Drupal would
> reduce the need to rely on a skilled webmaster or technical resource to
> achieve user-orientated day-to-day web content updates.
>
> To be honest - I'm really sick of reading all these bitter reminiscences
> regarding events of last year, while this year we face very real challenges
> that seem to not be addressed. Let's see more positive action and less of
> the negative chit-chat, can we?
>
> Valete bene.
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 4:59 PM, Gaia Valeria Pulchra <
> angelshavethephonebox@...> wrote:
>
> > Salvete Omnes
> >
> > How to Set Up a Dedicated Web Server For
> > Free<
> > http://net.tutsplus.com/tutorials/php/how-to-setup-a-dedicated-web-server-for-free/
> > >
> >
> >
> > Does no one in Nova Roma have a desktop in their den that they could
> > donate? I have the parts to two or three, and in a 6months to a year i
> > could
> > build one when Valerianus and I have a little more money. Is there really
> > no
> > one else here who knows how to use dreamweaver? It doesn't seem like a
> > world-ending problem to me, we just need to stop talking about the $10,000
> > proposal and start working on a solution.
> >
> > Valete Omnes.
> >
> > "If Danyell Brodd were an architect, she would be Rococo Channel" -
> > Elizabeth Basset
> >
> > "There is no love, only proofs of love" - Pierre Reverdy
> >
> > "The first man to compare the cheeks of a young woman to a rose was
> > obviously a poet; the first to repeat it was possibly an idiot." -Salvador
> > Dali
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 1:14 AM, Cn. Iulius Caesar <
> > gn_iulius_caesar@...> wrote:
> >
> > > **
> > >
> > >
> > > Cn. Iulius Caesar Praetor Q. Caecilio Metello sal.
> > >
> > > You either have forgotten, or now for some reason have side-lined the
> > fact,
> > > that there were attempts made in debates in the Senate, as well as
> > > unofficial contacts, to encourage alternative solutions, Octavius for
> > one,
> > > another being actually investigating why we were paying for the IT
> > version
> > > of the Queen Mary when it was aimed at serving a crew and passengers who
> > > could fit in a lifeboat (and a small one).
> > >
> > > There was an abject refusal on the part of Quintilianus to entertain any
> > > other solution than his pet one. Equally there was no way to force him to
> > > seriously investigate any other solution. He decided to ram it through
> > and
> > > used the IT issue partially as a justification for the coup attempt.
> > >
> > > Until the collapse of the coup and the departure of a number of its
> > > adherents, one way or another, there was equally no way to force a vote
> > on
> > > alternatives, since the Senate agenda and business are in the hands of
> > the
> > > consuls. Both of those last year locked horns, again partly on this
> > issue,
> > > and events gathered pace and the IT matter was left on the sidelines.
> > >
> > > I can tell you for one, I am not voting for any solution that sees the
> > bulk
> > > of Nova Roma's assets invested in a system that only a few can maintain,
> > > when as a result we either have to place ourselves in the good graces of
> > > amateur technocrats, or pay for its upkeep. we will drain our reserves
> > that
> > > way. Sulla's responsibility as CFO is to ensure that sensible proposals
> > are
> > > mooted financially and until income picks up and our reserves increase
> > > substantially, paying for a bells and whistles package that is both
> > wildly
> > > in excess of our needs and beyond the average citizen to maintain is
> > > unlikely to be a convincing argument to a number of Senators.
> > >
> > > Optime vale
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Q Caecilius Metellus
> > > <q.caecilius.metellus@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Q Caecilius Metellus L Cornelio Sullae legato ad aerarium curandum apud
> > > > Quirites s.d.
> > > >
> > > > > Well if you had a business background Livia the worst thing any
> > > > > business can do is to spend money when it will take a long while to
> > > > > replenish those funds. I have spelled out in the past that had NR
> > > > > spent half of its funds on the IT....it would take many many years
> > > > > before that money is replenished.
> > > >
> > > > Non sequitur. Livia did not, in the message to which
> > > > the above is a response, make such a statement as that we should spend
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 85262 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2011-08-20
Subject: Re: IT costs and off the self software.
Metellus,

You actually know better than that, because we have talked about it. What
use is it to toss 10k away without any clear means to replenish those funds?
You, with your banking and financial experience knows enough (because you
agreed with me in the past!) that without a sound plan wasting 10k is
absolutely insane. But hey, if you want to be CFO of Nova Roma and carry the
liability of signing off on those funds, you are one of the few people that
I would feel qualified enough to turning that responsibility over to. Then
I can just complain about it without having my neck on the line when an item
like that gets paid out and nothing really changes.

YES I mentioned all of my reservations to the Senate at the time the item
was debated. It was for the most part ignored as usual. Metellus, do you
take me for a fool, or those of my friends and allies in the Senate that we
did not ask if there were other bids? Surely with your knowledge of myself
and individuals like Caesar, Paulinus and others - that we voiced our
concerns...and even talked to Marcus Octavius as well...and Gualterus -
while the Senate was meeting at that time. So yes our due diligence was
addressed. Any other questions?

Vale,

Sulla

On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 9:59 PM, Q Caecilius Metellus <
q.caecilius.metellus@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Q Caecilius Metellus L Cornelio Sullae legato ad aerarium curandum apud
> Quirites s.d.
>
>
> > Well if you had a business background Livia the worst thing any
> > business can do is to spend money when it will take a long while to
> > replenish those funds. I have spelled out in the past that had NR
> > spent half of its funds on the IT....it would take many many years
> > before that money is replenished.
>
> Non sequitur. Livia did not, in the message to which
> the above is a response, make such a statement as that we should spend
> the entirety, or even half, or, in fact, any portion of the treasury on
> any specific 'project'. In point of fact, her statement was quite
> direct, and one with which I have to agree, if not by understanding
> consumer psychology then by simple logic. Paraphrased, her statement
> was to the effect that people are less willing to give when nothing
> will be gained from it.
>
> So, if we want people to give money, we have to make sure they get
> something in return. We want people to give money, give them, as C
> Valeria once noted, a welcome kit. We want people to give money, give
> them a website where the available features work more often than not.
> We want people to give money, show them, clearly and unquestionably,
> that the money is going to accomplish something.
>
> Plauta, I suspect, would be more than willing to correct me if I've
> misunderstood, but I gather that the above is, in concept, the point
> that was being made. If it comes to be the case that I've well
> understood her, I agree with her point entirely.
>
> Now, none of this needs to be terribly expensive either. If, for
> example, we set the membership rate at a (again, for example) flat 25
> (insert currency of choice), and in return for paying that fee, one
> got a subscription to an annual, semi-annual, or even quarterly journal
> of sorts that cost 5 (insert currency) for each subscription, we retain
> 80 percent of that donation. There are no shortage of things that can
> be done with this either. Aside from the membership package, sorts of
> membership cards, etc, there is quite truly no end to what else we
> could do. There have been, many times over the years, proposals for
> membership certificates/diplomas/et al., most recent to my mind coming
> from Ti Galerius. In itself, that could cost a mere pittance. Small
> flags, lapel pins, a few coins, whatever. The list goes endlessly.
>
> That, though, could not be the end of it. Sure, we can provide nice
> trinkets, but people have to see -- and more importantly, trust -- that
> the remainder of the donation is going to something worthy. Of late,
> this has not been done, but my experience certainly leads me to more
> than just suspect that this is a contributing factor to our inability
> to acquire revenue. As someone who has, not infrequently, given money
> to various causes, one of the primary things I want to know, and want
> to be able to see, is where the money is going: I require knowing that
> the money is being put to (good) use. This is something at which Nova
> Roma has failed in the past, and continues to do so. But, it is
> something that we can change. It requires time, diligence, and most
> importantly, follow-through, but it can be done.
>
>
> > Spending 10k on a buddy of Quintilianus was not a wise investment -
> > nor was the proposal adequate to protect Nova Roma's best interest,
> > since there was no adequate checks or benchmarks to divide up the
> > funds based on a percentage of work. Nor was there any outside bids
> > to determine the feasibility of the work, nor was there adequate
> > means to determine if changes needed to be made to the original
> > agenda item. In other words, it was a piss poor proposal.
>
> Nevermind that the remainder of this train is as much a non sequitur as
> the opening paragraph, I'm going to have to ask what the point of this
> paragraph is other than to waste time beating on one you dislike.
> Sure, the work was to be performed by Mr From, who one can very
> reasonably assume was a friend to Quintilianus. I'll even grant you
> that there was room for a conflict of interest here, which should have
> been investigated. But as a senator, aside from voting against the
> proposal, did you state any of the above while the item was under
> consideration? Did you ask if there were other bids? If you asked, as
> I shall assmume you did, and the answer was that there were not, as I
> shall assume was the case, did you inquire as to why there were no
> other bids? Did you request that other bids be obtained and presented
> to the Senate before such time as might be a vote on the proposal? Did
> you attempt to acquire bids yourself? I pose these questions to you
> directly, Sulla, but they apply equally across the entirety of the
> Senate as it was at the time.
>
> --
> May you live in interesting times.
> -- Chinese proverb
>
>
>


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