Selected messages in Nova-Roma group. Jan 1-9, 2012

Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86594 From: Q Caecilius Metellus Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Results of the Comitia Populi Tributa
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86595 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: KALENDIS IANVARIIS MMDCCLXV - VEDIOVI AESCVLAPIO STRENAE -
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86596 From: Cn. Cornelius Lentulus Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: NEW YEAR RITUAL FOR NOVA ROMA
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86597 From: Cn. Cornelius Lentulus Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Edictum XX. of Cn. Lentulus leg. pr. pr. Pannoniae on appointment of
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86598 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Oath of Office - C. Petronius Dexter.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86599 From: Spurius Porcius Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: esküm, swear, IVRO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86600 From: Cn. Cornelius Lentulus Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Oath of office of Rogator Cn. Lentulus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86601 From: GAIUS MARCIUS CRISPUS Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Witnessing Imperium
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86602 From: V. Valerius Volusus Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Re: Gratias!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86603 From: Spurius Porcius Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: gratias.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86604 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: KALENDAE IANUARIAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86605 From: Cn. Iulius Caesar Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Consular Sacrifice Ceremony
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86606 From: Cn. Iulius Caesar Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Consular oath of office.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86607 From: GAIUS MARCIUS CRISPUS Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Witnessing Imperium
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86608 From: Belle Morte Statia Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Oath of Office--Praetor
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86609 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Absence
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86610 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Monday
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86611 From: GAIUS MARCIUS CRISPUS Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Witnessing Imperium
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86612 From: V. Valerius Volusus Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Re: CFO and Financial Questions
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86613 From: C. Aemilius Crassus Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Re: Absence
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86614 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Witnessing Imperium
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86615 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Re: CFO and Financial Questions
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86616 From: V. Valerius Volusus Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Re: CFO and Financial Questions
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86617 From: Timothy or Stephen Gallagher Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: FW: [Explorator] explorator 14.36-37
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86618 From: Timothy or Stephen Gallagher Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Oath of Ti. Galerius Paulinus as Censor of Nova Roma
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86619 From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: After every Kalends, Nones, Ides, the next day is "Ater", 1/2/2012,
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86620 From: Steven "Venator" Robinson Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Re: Resignation of Consular Imperium
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86621 From: Steven "Venator" Robinson Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Re: Witnessing Imperium
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86622 From: Steven "Venator" Robinson Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Congratulations...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86623 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Omnymi
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86624 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Testificationes
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86625 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Consular oath of office
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86626 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Witness Statements
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86627 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Auspices for a New Year
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86628 From: Spurius Porcius Date: 2012-01-02
Subject: ancient Roman traditions
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86629 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2012-01-02
Subject: Re: Gratias!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86630 From: James V Hooper Date: 2012-01-02
Subject: Re: Congratulations...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86631 From: Clint Johnson Date: 2012-01-02
Subject: (no subject)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86632 From: GAIUS MARCIUS CRISPUS Date: 2012-01-02
Subject: Witnessing Imperium
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86633 From: V. Valerius Volusus Date: 2012-01-02
Subject: EDICTUM TRIBUNICIUM: DE CREATIONE ACCENSO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86634 From: L. Lucretius Caupo Date: 2012-01-02
Subject: Re: EDICTUM TRIBUNICIUM: DE CREATIONE ACCENSO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86635 From: C. Maria Caeca Date: 2012-01-02
Subject: Re: New Year greetings
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86636 From: C. Aemilius Crassus Date: 2012-01-03
Subject: Witnessing Imperium
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86637 From: Gaius Date: 2012-01-03
Subject: Witnessing Imperium
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86638 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-03
Subject: a.d. III Non. Ian.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86639 From: C. Cocceius Spinula Date: 2012-01-03
Subject: Witnessing imperium
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86640 From: Denise D. Date: 2012-01-03
Subject: Back to work
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86641 From: V. Valerius Volusus Date: 2012-01-03
Subject: Re: Back to work
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86642 From: Belle Morte Statia Date: 2012-01-03
Subject: Re: Back to work
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86643 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2012-01-03
Subject: Lictor - witnessing
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86644 From: C. Maria Caeca Date: 2012-01-03
Subject: Re: Back to work
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86645 From: Bruno Zani Date: 2012-01-03
Subject: Re: Back to work
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86646 From: L. Lucretius Caupo Date: 2012-01-04
Subject: Re: Back to work
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86647 From: l_lvcretivs_cavpo Date: 2012-01-04
Subject: Re: Back to work
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86648 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-04
Subject: prid. Non. Ian.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86649 From: gaiusoctaviuspriscus Date: 2012-01-04
Subject: Alive and well
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86650 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2012-01-04
Subject: EDICTVM CENSORIVM DE CREATIONE SCRIBARVM
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86651 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2012-01-04
Subject: ATTN: Governors - proroguing & budgets - urgent reminder
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86652 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2012-01-04
Subject: Re: ENDORSEMENTS L. Iulia Aquila
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86653 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2012-01-04
Subject: Re: NEW YEAR RITUAL FOR NOVA ROMA
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86654 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2012-01-04
Subject: Re: Gratiarum actio.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86655 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2012-01-04
Subject: Re: Back to work
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86656 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2012-01-04
Subject: Re: New Year greetings
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86657 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2012-01-04
Subject: Congratulations to All New Magistrates!!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86658 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2012-01-04
Subject: Lex Curiata de Imperio MMDCCLXV
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86659 From: GAIUS MARCIUS CRISPUS Date: 2012-01-05
Subject: Sex token found in London
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86660 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-05
Subject: NONAE IANUARIAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86661 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-06
Subject: a.d. VIII Id. Ian.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86662 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-06
Subject: Pompeii - a Very Messy Place even before the eruption...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86663 From: Timothy or Stephen Gallagher Date: 2012-01-06
Subject: Scriba/scribae
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86664 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-07
Subject: a.d. VII Non. Ian.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86665 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE ROM
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86666 From: Timothy or Stephen Gallagher Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: FW: [Explorator] explorator 14.38
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86668 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: a.d. VI Non. Ian.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86669 From: Q Caecilius Metellus Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86670 From: V. Valerius Volusus Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86671 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86672 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86673 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86674 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86675 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86676 From: Q Caecilius Metellus Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86677 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86678 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86679 From: V. Valerius Volusus Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86680 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86681 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86682 From: Q Caecilius Metellus Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86683 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86684 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86685 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86686 From: Q Caecilius Metellus Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86687 From: Q Caecilius Metellus Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86689 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86690 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86691 From: V. Valerius Volusus Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86692 From: Gaius Octavius Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86693 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86694 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86695 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86696 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86697 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86698 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86699 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86700 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: De Latina lingua
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86701 From: L. Lucretius Caupo Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86702 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: De Latina lingua
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86703 From: L. Lucretius Caupo Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: De Latina lingua
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86704 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86705 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: De Latina lingua
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86706 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: De Latina lingua
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86707 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: De Latina lingua
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86708 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86709 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86710 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86711 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86712 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86713 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86714 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86715 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86716 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86717 From: Belle Morte Statia Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86718 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86719 From: Belle Morte Statia Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86720 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86721 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86722 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86723 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86724 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86725 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86726 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86727 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86728 From: Belle Morte Statia Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86729 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86730 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86731 From: Belle Morte Statia Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86732 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86733 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86734 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86735 From: Belle Morte Statia Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86736 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86737 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86738 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86739 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86740 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86741 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86742 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86743 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86744 From: Belle Morte Statia Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86745 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86746 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86747 From: Belle Morte Statia Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86748 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86749 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86750 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86751 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86752 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86753 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86754 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01:
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86755 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01:
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86756 From: Steven "Venator" Robinson Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86757 From: Steven "Venator" Robinson Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: Alive and well
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86758 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86759 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86760 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86761 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86762 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86763 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86764 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86765 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86766 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86767 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86768 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86769 From: Belle Morte Statia Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86770 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86771 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE



Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86594 From: Q Caecilius Metellus Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Results of the Comitia Populi Tributa
Q Caecilius Metellus Quiritibus salutem plurimam dicit.

Saluete, Quirites.

To the best of my knowledge, the results of the comitia populi tributa
have not been released. Our prior consuls have laid down their office,
our new consuls have not yet had opportunity to take up their office,
so let me release to you the results of the vote in the comitia populi
tributa.

----- Begin Voting Results -----

Void Tribes: 14

[01, 04, 05, 10, 13, 17, 18, 23, 24, 26, 28, 32, 34, 35]

Quaestura:

Sp Porcius Gemma: 21

[02, 03, 06, 07, 08, 09, 11, 12, 14, 15, 16, 19, 20, 21, 22, 25, 27,
29, 30, 31, 33]

Sp Porcius Gemma is elected in the first round, with twenty-one tribes
in favour.

Rogatura:

First Round:

Tied tribes: 14

[02, 03, 07, 08, 09, 12, 14, 15, 19, 25, 27, 29, 30, 31]

Cn Cornelius Lentulus: 10

[02*, 06, 07*, 11, 21, 22, 25*, 27*, 29*, 33]

L Decia Flora: 11

[03*, 08*, 09*, 12*, 14*, 15*, 16, 19*, 20, 30, 31*]

L Decia Flora is elected in the first round, with eleven tribes in
favour.

Second Round:

Cn Cornelius Lentulus: 21

[02, 03, 06, 07, 08, 09, 11, 12, 14, 15, 16, 19, 20, 21, 22, 25, 27,
29, 30, 31, 33]

Cn Cornelius Lentulus is elected in the second round, with twenty-one
tribes in favour.

----- End Voting Results -----

It did not occur to me until a few minutes ago that in this comitia, I
neglected to state the number of tribes needed to be elected, as I did
with the centuries in the comitia centuriata. Those numbers are:

For the quaestura, eleven.

For the first round of voting for the rogatura, eleven. In the second
round of the rogatura, with no change to the number of tribes voting,
eleven also.

Ut res publica ualeat, curate bene.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86595 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: KALENDIS IANVARIIS MMDCCLXV - VEDIOVI AESCVLAPIO STRENAE -
C. Petronius Dexter Pontifex Maximus omnibus Quiritibus salutem dicit plurimam,

Today morning, capite velato, I have invoked Iuno Covella by saying
the traditional formula:

"Die Quinti te kalo Iuno Covella"
"Die Quinti te kalo Iuno Covella"
"Die Quinti te kalo Iuno Covella"
"Die Quinti te kalo Iuno Covella"
"Die Quinti te kalo Iuno Covella"

I offered incense and saying prayers I asked the Goddess to be favorable toward
us the entire Nova Roman community.

The first nundinal letter of the year MMDCCLXV aVc, XV aNRc
and nundinal letter for all this month January is *D*.

The festivals to be celebrated in the month of Ianuarius shall be:

1 A Kal F Vediovi, Aesculapio, Strenae
2 B IV a.d.Non.Ian F dies ater
3 C III a.d.Non.Ian C
4 D Pr C Nundina
5 E Non F Vicae Poto/ Victoriae
6 F VIII a.d.Id. Ian F dies ater
7 G VII a.d.Id. Ian C
8 H VI a.d.Id. Ian C
9 A V a.d.Id. Ian NP Agonalia, Iano
10 B IV a.d.Id. Ian EN
11 C III a.d.Id. Ian NP Carmentalia Iuturnalia
12 D Pr Id. C Nundina
13 E Id NP Feriae Iovi
14 F XIX a.d.Kal.Feb. EN dies ater
15 G XVIII a.d.Kal.Feb. NP Carmentalia
16 H XVII a.d.Kal.Feb. C Concordia
17 A XVI a.d.Kal.Feb. C
18 B XV a.d.Kal.Feb. C Compitalia
19 C XIV a.d.Kal.Feb. C
20 D XIII a.d.Kal.Feb. C Nundina
21 E XII a.d.Kal.Feb. C
22 F XI a.d.Kal.Feb. C
23 G X a.d.Kal.Feb. C
24 H IX a.d.Kal.Feb. C Feriae Semantivae
25 A VIII a.d.Kal.Feb. C
26 B VII a.d.Kal.Feb. C
27 C VI a.d.Kal.Feb. C Castori
28 D V a.d.Kal.Feb. C Nundina
29 E IV a.d.Kal.Feb. F
30 F III a.d.Kal.Feb. F Ara Pacis Augustae
31 G Pr Kal.Feb C Hecatae

----------------------------

I poured a libation ofmilk thanking to the Goddess for Her benevolence.

Favete linguis !

Iuno, Iane, Iuppiter,
omnesque di deaeque Vestaque
vos bonas preces precor quaesoque
uti Novis Romanis Quiritibus foveatis !

FELICEM FAVSTVM FORTVNATVM ANNVM NOVVM MMDCCLXV !

Happy New Year!

Ilicet !

Optime valete.

--
C. Petronius Dexter
Pontifex Maximus
Arcoiali scribebat
Kalendis Ianuariis Cn. Iulio C. Tullio coss.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86596 From: Cn. Cornelius Lentulus Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: NEW YEAR RITUAL FOR NOVA ROMA
Cn. Cornelius Lentulus, rogator, pontifex: consulibus, praetoribus, tribunis plebis et omnibus Quiritibus: s. p. d.:


+ + + BONUM FAUSTUM FELICEM FORTUNATUM ANNUM NOVUM MMDCCLXV + + +


Happy, prosperous, propitious and blessed New Year! The Kalends of Januray, the holiday of Father Ianus, is celebrated today. The celebration of the Beginning of the Beginnings. May Father Ianus bless you all.

This is the ritual to Father Ianus and to all the main gods of nova Roma that I as pontifex conducted before my home altar after midnight.



SACRIFICE FOR THE KALENDS OF JANUARY, BEGINNING OF 2765 AUC, THE CONSULATE OF CN. CAESAR AND C. TULLIUS


Favete linguis!

(Beginning of the sacrifice.)

PRAEFATIO

Iane pater, deus novi initii,
te hoc ture commovendo
bonas preces precor,
uti sies volens propitius
Populo Novo Romano Quiritibus,
mihi, domo, familiae!

(Incense is placed in the focus of the altar.)

Iane pater, deus novi initii,
uti te ture commovendo
bonas preces precatus sum,
eiusdem rei ergo
macte vino inferio esto!

(Libation of wine is made.)

PRECATIO TO IANUS

Iane pater, deus novi initii,
custos futuri et praeteriti temporis sanctissime,
his Kalendis Ianuariis anni novi nunc incepti
te precor, veneror, detestorque quaesoque:
uti laetitiam fortunamque,
omnes eventus bonos fautosque,
fortunatos felicissimosque,
pacem concordiamque constantem
societati Novae Romae tribuas;
utique Rem Publicam Populi Novi Romani Quiritium
confirmes, augeas, adiuves,
omnibusque inceptibus conatibusque Populi Novi Romani Quiritium faveas,
utique sies volens propitius
novis consulibus Cn. Iulio Caesari et C. Tullio Valeriano Germanico,
novis praetoribus C. Petronio Dextro et Statiae Corneliae Aeterniae,
omnibusque novis magistratibus,
Populo Novo Romano Quiritibus,
omnibus civibus, viris et mulieribus, pueris et puellabus Novis Romanis,
mihi, domo, familiae!

SACRIFICIUM TO IANUS

Quarum rerum ergo macte
hoc libo libando,
hoc vino libando,
hoc ture ommovendo
esto fito volens propitius
novis consulibus Cn. Iulio Caesari et C. Tullio Valeriano Germanico,
novis praetoribus C. Petronio Dextro et Statiae Corneliae Aeterniae,
omnibusque novis magistratibus,
Populo Novo Romano Quiritibus,
omnibus civibus, viris et mulierbus, pueris et puellabus Novis Romanis,
mihi, domo, familiae!

(Libum is sacrificed, libation is made and incense is sacrificed.)

PRECATIO TO ALL MAIN GODS

GRATIARUM ACTIO

Iane,
Iuppiter, Iuno, Minerva,
Quirine, Venus, Vesta, Mercuri, Concordia, Fortuna!
Penates, Lares,
di Novensiles, dique Indigetes,
omnes divi quocumque nomine,
quorum est potestas nostrum hostiumque,
dique Manes!
Vos quaeso precorque,
uti vos praeteriti proxime anni Kalendis Ianuariis
bonis precibus bene precatus sum,
quibusque uti precibus satisfecistis:
earundem rerum ergo propterque omnia in praeterito proxime anno alia
rei publicae Novae Romanae et populo Novo Romano Quiritibus,
mihi, domo, familiae data beneficia
macte his turis granis sacrificandis et hoc vino libando
estote fitote volentes propitii!

(After these words incense and wine were sacrificied.)

NEW YEAR REQUESTS

Quarum rerum ergo, quodque melius siet
renascenti Populo Romano Quiritibus,
mihi, domo, familiae
in hodie incepto novo anno vobis sacrum fiat:
Vos precor, veneror, veniam peto feroque,
uti Res Nostra, Res Romae reficiundae,
regignundi ac renascentis Populi Romani Quiritium,
Reique Publicae Populi Romani Quiritium renaturae
semper crescat, convalescat, continenter extendatur, augeatur;
fiantque multo plures Novi Romani Quirites;
motusque et consociatio ad Rem Romanam reficiundam instituatur;
utique Res Publica Populi Novi Romani Quiritium semper floreat;
utique Provincia Pannonia, cuius legatus pro praetore sum, crescat,
multosque cives habeat;
utique Populo Novo Romano Quiritibus,
Reique Publicae Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
mihi, domo, familiae
omnes in hodie incepto novo anno eventus bonos faustosque esse siritis;
utique sitis volentes propitii Populo Novo Romano Quiritibus,
Reique Publicae Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
Provinciaeque Pannoniae Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
novis magistratibus, consulibus, praetoribus Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
tribunis Plebei Novae Romanae,
Senatui Novo Romano,
rogatoribus Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
mihi, domo, familiae!

PRECATIO TO IUPPITER

Iuppiter Optime Maxime,
earundem rerum ergo te precor quaesoque,
uti sies volens propitius Populo Novo Romano Quiritibus,
Reique Publicae Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
Provinciaeque Pannoniae Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
novis magistratibus, consulibus, praetoribus Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
tribunis Plebei Novae Romanae,
Senatui Novo Romano,
rogatoribus Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
mihi, domo, familiae!

PRECATIO TO A THE PATRIOTIC GODS

Quirine, Dea Roma, Venus Genetrix, Mars,
Penates, Lares, Manes maiorum nostrum,
omnes di quocumque nomine, qui Romam favetis favebatis,
earundem rerum ergo vos precor quaesoque,
uti fiant multo plures Novi Romani Quirites;
utique ex societate Novae Romae verus motus et consociatio fieri possit,
ex qua Populus Romanus Quiritium
Resque Publica Populi Romani Quiritium renascatur;
utique Novae Romae Societas Pannonia in Hungaria magni momenti fiat!

PRECATIO TO MAIN FEMALE GODS

Deae Iuno et Vesta,
earundem rerum ergo vos precor quaesoque,
uti domos familiasque Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
domum familiamque meam protegatis, curetis, custodiatis;
utique domos familiasque Populi Novi Romani Quiritium,
domum familiamque meam ab omnibus malis conservetis!

SACRIFICIUM COMMVNE TO ALL MAIN GODS

Sicut verba nuncupavi, quae ita faxitis, uti ego me sentio dicere:
harum rerum ergo macte
hoc libo libando
hoc vino lacte melleque mixto libando,
his turis granis sacrificandis
estote fitote in hodie incepto novo anno
volentes propitii renascenti Populo Romano Quiritibus,
mihi, domo, familiae!

(Libation of wine is made)

Ilicet!

(End of the sacrifice.)

PIACULUM

Iane,
Iuppiter Optime Maxmime, Iuno, Minerva,
Omnes Di Immortales quocumque nomine:
si quidquam vobis in hac caerimonia displicuit,
hoc vino inferio
veniam peto
et vitium meum expio.

(Libation of wine is made.)


+ + + BONUM FAUSTUM FELICEM FORTUNATUM ANNUM NOVUM MMDCCLXV + + +

HAPPY NEW YEAR!
LONG LIVE NOVA ROMA!


Cn. Cornelius Lentulus, rogator
P O N T I F E X
Legatus pro praetore Pannoniae
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86597 From: Cn. Cornelius Lentulus Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Edictum XX. of Cn. Lentulus leg. pr. pr. Pannoniae on appointment of
EDICTUM XX. LEGATI PRO PRAETORE PANNONIAE


Edictum XX. Legati Pro Praetore Cn. Cornelii Lentuli de
Quaestore Legati Pro Praetore nominando

Edictum XX. of Legatus Pro Praetore Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus about appointment of Provincial Quaestor of the Legatus Pro Praetore

Cn. Cornelius Lentulus Praetori Jogkörű Kormányzó XX. Rendelete
a Kormányzó Provinciai Quaestorának kinevezéséről


- MAGYAR VÁLTOZAT ------------------------------------------------------

I. Ezennel kinevezem Proquaestrix L. Livia Plauta utódjaként Sp. Porcius Gemma Quaestort Pannonia Provincia és a Legatus pro Praetore Quaestorává.

II. Ezen minőségében a provincia quaestorának feladata a provincia kormányzójának általános, teljeskörű és abszolút helyettesítése, teljes fennhatósággal a provincia összes hivatala felett.

III. Ez az Edictum azonnali hatállyal életbe lép.

Kelt, a. u. c. 2765. január 1-jén.

Datum Kal. Jan. Cn. Iulio Caesare C. Tullio Valeriano Germanico consulibus anno MMDCCLXV AUC.



Cn. Cornelius Lentulus
LEGATUS PRO PRAETORE
PANNONIAE PROVINCIAE




- ENGLISH VERSION --------------------------------------------------

I. I hereby appoint Quaestor Sp. Porcius Gemma as Quaestor of Pannonia Provincia and of the Legatus pro Praetore, succeding Proquaestrix L. Livia Plauta.

II. In this capacity, the duty of the Provincial Quaestor is to act as vicar and first, general deputy for the Legatus Pro Praetore in all and any provincial businesses, with supreme oversight over all provincial offices.

III. This Edictum becomes effective immediately.



Given the 1st of January, 2765 AUC.

Datum Kal. Jan. Cn. Iulio Caesare C. Tullio Valeriano Germanico consulibus anno MMDCCLXV AUC.



Cn. Cornelius Lentulus
LEGATUS PRO PRAETORE
PANNONIAE PROVINCIAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86598 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Oath of Office - C. Petronius Dexter.
C. Petronius Dexter Quiritibus salutem dicit plurimam,

Oath of Office.
According to the Lex Cassia de Iureiurando:
"The following oath must be taken publicly in the major public fora of Nova Roma before someone elected or appointed to any magistracy can assume his or her office. It must be taken on the day, or as soon as possible afterwards, that the office is to be assumed. The office shall be considered vacant until the oath is taken."

-ENGLISH VERSION:

I, Gaius Petronius Dexter [Jean-François Arnoud], do hereby solemnly swear to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Gaius Petronius Dexter [Jean-François Arnoud], swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

I, Gaius Petronius Dexter [Jean-François Arnoud], swear to uphold and defend the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to act in a way that would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Gaius Petronius Dexter [Jean-François Arnoud], swear to protect and defend the Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Gaius Petronius Dexter [Jean-François Arnoud], further swear to fulfill the obligations and responsibilities of the office of Praetor to the best of
my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do I
accept the position of Praetor and all the rights, privileges, obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.

-LATIN VERSION:

Ego, Gaius Petronius Dexter [Jean-François Arnoud], hac re ipsa decus Novae Romae me defensurum, et semper pro populo senatuque Novae Romae acturum esse sollemniter IVRO.

Ego, Gaius Petronius Dexter [Jean-François Arnoud], officio praetoris Novae Romae accepto, deos deasque Romae in omnibus meae vitae publicae temporibus culturum, et virtutes Romanas publica privataque vita me persecuturum esse IVRO.

Ego, Gaius Petronius Dexter [Jean-François Arnoud], Religioni Romanae me fauturum et eam defensurum, et numquam contra eius statum publicum me acturum esse, ne quid detrimenti capiat IVRO.

Ego, Gaius Petronius Dexter [Jean-François Arnoud], officiis muneris Praetoris me quam optime functurum esse praeterea IVRO.

Meo civis Novae Romae honore, coram deis deabusque populi Romani, et voluntate favoreque eorum, ego munus tribuni plebis una cum iuribus,
privilegiis, muneribus et officiis comitantibus ACCIPIO.

----------------------------

Optime valete.

--
C. Petronius Dexter
Praetor
Arcoiali scribebat
Kalendis Ianuariis MMDCCLXV aVc






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86599 From: Spurius Porcius Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: esküm, swear, IVRO
SP. PORCIUS GEMMA QVAESTOR QVIRITIBVS SPD

Avete, Novi Romani Qurites!

Ezennel leteszem hivatali eskümet:


- HUNGARIAN VERSION

Én, Sp. Porcius Gemma (Szemők György), ezennel ünnepélyesen esküszöm,hogy
Nova Roma becsületét megvédelmezem, és mindenkor a szenátus és Nova Roma
népének érdekében cselekszem.

Én, Sp. Porcius Gemma, elfogadván hivatalomat esküszöm, hogy Róma isteneit
és istennõit minden közéleti tevékenységem során tisztelettel fogom
illetni, és követni fogom a római erényeket mind a magán, mind a közösségi
életben.

Én, Sp. Porcius Gemma, esküszöm, hogy a Római Vallást óvni és védelmezni
fogom, és nyílvánosan sohasem foglalok el vele ellentétes álláspontot, hogy
kárt ne szenvedjen.

Én, Sp. Porcius Gemma, esküszöm továbbá, hogy a Quaestori hivatallal járó
feladataimat a lehetõ legjobb képességeim szerint látom el.

Én, nova római polgárjogomnál fogva a római nép istenei és istennõi elõtt
és azok akarata és tetszése szerint a Quaestori hivatalt a velejáró összes
joggal, kiváltsággal, kötelezettséggel és feladattal együtt elfogadom.


- LATIN VERSION

Ego, Sp. Porcius Gemma (György Szemők), hac re ipsa decus Novae Romae me
defensurum, et semper pro populo senatuque Novae Romae acturum esse
sollemniter IVRO.

Ego, Sp. Porcius Gemma, officio Quaestoris Novae Romae accepto, deos
deasque Romae in omnibus meae vitae publicae temporibus culturum, et
virtutes Romanas publica privataque vita me persecuturum esse IVRO.

Ego, Sp. Porcius Gemma, Religioni Romanae me fauturum et eam defensurum, et
numquam contra eius statum publicum me acturum esse, ne quid detrimenti
capiat IVRO.

Ego, Sp. Porcius Gemma, officiis muneris Quaestoris me quam optime
functurum esse praeterea IVRO.

Meo civis Novae Romae honore, coram deis deabusque populi Romani, et
voluntate favoreque eorum, ego munus Quaestoris, una cum iuribus,
privilegiis, muneribus et officiis comitantibus ACCIPIO


- ENGLISH VERSION:

I, Sp. Porcius Gemma (György Szemők) do hereby solemnly swear to uphold the
honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best interests of the people
and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Sp. Porcius Gemma swear to honor the Gods
and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to pursue the Roman
Virtues in my public and private life.

I, Sp. Porcius Gemma swear to uphold and defend the Religio Romana as the
State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to act in a way that would
threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Sp. Porcius Gemma swear to protect and defend the Constitution of Nova
Roma.

I, Sp. Porcius Gemma further swear to fulfill the obligations and
responsibilities of the office of Quaestor to the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the Gods and
Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do I accept the
position of Quaestor and all the rights, privileges, obligations, and
responsibilities attendant thereto.


Valete, Novi Romani Quirites!

Sp. Porcius Gemma
QUAESTOR NOVAE ROMAE


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86600 From: Cn. Cornelius Lentulus Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Oath of office of Rogator Cn. Lentulus
OATH OF OFFICE OF ROGATOR CN. CORNELIUS LENTULUS

Avete, Novi Romani Qurites!

Ego, Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus (Attila Gonda), hac re ipsa decus Novae Romae me defensurum, et semper pro populo senatuque Novae Romae acturum esse sollemniter IVRO.

Ego, Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus, officio Rogatoris Novae Romae accepto, deos deasque Romae in omnibus meae vitae publicae temporibus culturum, et virtutes Romanas publica privataque vita me persecuturum esse IVRO.

Ego, Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus, Religioni Romanae me fauturum et eam defensurum, et numquam contra eius statum publicum me acturum esse, ne quid detrimenti capiat IVRO.

Ego, Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus, officiis muneris Rogatoris me quam optime functurum esse praeterea IVRO.

Meo civis Novae Romae honore, coram deis deabusque populi Romani, et voluntate favoreque eorum, ego munus Rogatoris una cum iuribus, privilegiis, muneribus et officiis comitantibus ACCIPIO

- HUNGARIAN VERSION

Én, Cn. Cornelius Lentulus (Attila Gonda), ezennel ünnepélyesen esküszöm,hogy Nova Roma becsületét megvédelmezem, és mindenkor a szenátus és Nova Roma népének érdekében cselekszem.

Én, Cn. Cornelius Lentulus, elfogadván hivatalomat esküszöm, hogy Róma isteneit és istennõit minden közéleti tevékenységem során tisztelettel fogom illetni, és követni fogom a római erényeket mind a magán, mind a közösségi életben.

Én, Cn. Cornelius Lentulus, esküszöm, hogy a Római Vallást óvni és védelmezni fogom, és nyílvánosan sohasem foglalok el vele ellentétes álláspontot, hogy kárt ne szenvedjen.

Én, Cn. Cornelius Lentulus, esküszöm továbbá, hogy a Rogatori hivatallal járó feladataimat a lehetõ legjobb képességeim szerint látom el.

Én, nova római polgárjogomnál fogva a római nép istenei és istennõi elõtt és azok akarata és tetszése szerint a Rogatori hivatalt a velejáró összes joggal, kiváltsággal, kötelezettséggel és feladattal együtt elfogadom.

-ENGLISH VERSION:

I, Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus (Attila Gonda) do hereby solemnly swear to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

I, Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus swear to uphold and defend the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to act in a way that would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus swear to protect and defend the Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus further swear to fulfill the obligations and responsibilities of the office of Rogator to the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do I accept the position of Rogator and all the rights, privileges, obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86601 From: GAIUS MARCIUS CRISPUS Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Witnessing Imperium
Salvete omnes

I, Gaius Marcius Crispus, as a Lictor of Nova Roma, hereby witness the appointment of Gaius Petronius Dexter as Praetor maior of Nova Roma.

As a member of the Comitia Curiata I wish him good fortune in his office and in his work on behalf of the Religio Romana.

Valete omnes

GAIUS MARCIUS CRISPUS
LICTOR

Date. Kalendis Ianuariis MMDCCLXV aVc
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86602 From: V. Valerius Volusus Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Re: Gratias!
V. Valerius Volusus A. Tulliae Scholasticae S.P.D.

Congratulations on your success in the elections, to both yourself and
Paulinus! I think the people have chosen very well and that we now have two
of our finest and outstanding citizens serving in the office of Censor. It
is sad to see our noble Titus Sabinus step down, after serving his two
years so admirably, but his wisdom and graciousness remains within Nova
Roma. His will be a presence that will always loom large in my esteem.

I am also happy to see that both you and our new Praetor Petronius Dexter
have been elected to office, despite any possible attempt by outside
parties to cast doubt upon either of you. The Nova Roman people are all too
aware of your impeccable loyalty to the Respublica and the high moral
integrity of both of you - we have voted accordingly. Despite attempts to
interfere with our election process, it failed to send any significant
shock waves or get the reaction that may have been intended. This is a
victory for us all. It shows that, as good Romans, we can keep calm and
focused under conditions of extreme danger and adversity.

Good luck in all your endeavors!

Vale optime,

--
V. Valerius Volusus
Tribunus Plebis

*Public servant*: you don't need any prior introduction to contact me in
private if you
have any problems, worries or concerns about any aspect of Nova Roman
government.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86603 From: Spurius Porcius Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: gratias.
SALVE!
I will send all candidates to respect! And I send my thanks to all the
citizens to vote! I send my respect to everyone who wins the office!
--
Spurius Porcius Gemma
QUAESTOR NOVAE ROMAE


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86604 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: KALENDAE IANUARIAE
Cato omnibus in foro SPD

Hodiernus dies est Kalendae Ianuariae; hic dies fastus est.

"See how Janus appears first in my song
To announce a happy year for you, Germanicus.
Two-headed Janus, source of the silently gliding year,
The only god who is able to see behind him,
Be favourable to the leaders, whose labours win
Peace for the fertile earth, peace for the seas:
Be favourable to the senate and Roman people,
And with a nod unbar the shining temples.
A prosperous day dawns: favour our thoughts and speech!
Let auspicious words be said on this auspicious day.
Let our ears be free of lawsuits then, and banish
Mad disputes now: you, malicious tongues, cease wagging!
See how the air shines with fragrant fire,
And Cilician grains crackle on lit hearths!
The flame beats brightly on the temple's gold,
And spreads a flickering light on the shrine's roof.
Spotless garments make their way to Tarpeian Heights,
And the crowd wear the colours of the festival:
Now the new rods and axes lead, new purple glows,
And the distinctive ivory chair feels fresh weight." - Ovid, Fast
1 "Kalends"

"And after he had built the Temple of Vesta he built the Temple of
Ianus. As the God Ianus has two faces so this temple has two gates:
they stand open in time of war and are closed in time of peace. Very
seldom in later times were the gates of the Temple of Ianus shut, but in
Numa's time the gates were never seen open--no, not for a single day:
for the space of over two score years the gates were unopened." -
Padraig Colum, Orpheus: Myths of the Underworld (1937), "Numa the
Law-Giver"


The Kalends of January are sacred (as is in fact the entire month) to the
dual-faced god Ianus; Ianus is the god of comings and goings, of
looking to the past and anticipating the future. The god Janus has a
distinctive appearance in art, as he is often depicted with two faces,
called "Ianus Bifrons". Some sources claim that the reason Janus was
represented in this peculiar fashion was due to the notion that doors
and gates look in two directions. In this way, one of the god's faces
could look forward, while the other looked backward.

The origins of this God vary somewhat, dependent upon the source.
One legend states that Ianus was a mortal who came from Thessaly
and was welcomed into Latium by Camese. The couple are said to have
married, shared the kingdom and had many children together, including
Tiberinus, the Tiber River-God. Upon the death of Camese, Janus
became the sole ruler and granted Saturn sanctuary when that ancient
God was fleeing from Iuppiter. As the first King of Latium, Janus
ensured a time of peace, honesty and abundance for his people...an era
known as the Golden Age. He introduced money, cultivation of the fields
and laws. He is also said to have later married a nymph named Iuturna,
whose spring and shrine were located closed to his temple in the Forum
of Rome. One of their children was Fons (also known as Fontus), God of
Springs. It was only after his death that Janus was deified and became
the Protector of the City.

Ianus was well-respected and highly-regarded as a god by the ancient
Romans and his dual-faced image could be found on most city gates
and many Roman coins. Given his role as Guardian of Gates, his position
as the god of Beginnings and the esteem of having the first month of the
year named in his honor, it is apparent that Janus played a significant
role in Roman myth and religion. He was invoked at the start of each
new day and often referred to as the Porter of Heaven. He particularly
presided over all that is double-edged in life and represented the
transition between the primitive and civilization.


Valete bene and Happy New Year!

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86605 From: Cn. Iulius Caesar Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Consular Sacrifice Ceremony
Cn. Iulius Caesar sal.

This is the rite prepared by Pontifex and Flamen Quirinalis C. Iulius Scaurus. It replaces the original rite conducted by the senior consul elect, which is currently lost to us. Just before the dawn I bathed in preparation, then togate I commenced the ceremony.

Praefatio

"Iane pater, te hoc ture ommovendo bonas preces precor, uti sies volens propitius mihi et Senatui Populoque Novae Romae [Father Ianus, by offering this incense to you I pray good prayers, so that you may be propitious to me and the Senate and People of Nova Roma."] I placed incense in the focus of the altar.

"Mars pater, te hoc ture ommovendo bonas preces precor, uti sies volens propitius mihi et enatui Populoque Novae Romae [Father Mars, by offering this incense to you I pray good prayers, so that you may be propitious to me and the Senate and People of Nova Roma.]" I placed incense in the focus of the altar.

"Quirine pater, te hoc ture ommovendo bonas preces precor, uti sies volens propitius mihi et Senatui Populoque Novae Romae [Father Quirinus, by offering this incense to you I pray good prayers, so that you may be propitious to me and the Senate and People of Nova Roma.]" I placed incense in the focus of the altar.

"Iane pater, uti te ture ommovendo bonas preces bene precatus sum, eiusdem rei ergo macte vino inferio esto [Father Ianus, as by offering to you the incense virtuous prayers were well prayed, for the sake of this be honoured by this humble wine.]" I poured a libation from the patera on the focus of the altar.

"Mars pater, uti te ture ommovendo bonas preces bene precatus sum, eiusdem rei ergo macte vino inferio esto [Father Mars, as by offering to you the incense virtuous prayers were well prayed, for the sake of this be honoured by this humble wine.]" I poured a libation from the
patera on the focus of the altar.

"Quirine pater, uti te ture ommovendo bonas preces bene precatus sum, eiusdem rei ergo macte vino inferio esto [Father Quirinus, as by offering to you the incense virtuous prayers were well prayed, for the sake of this be honoured by this humble wine.]" I poured a libation from the patera on the focus of the altar.

I washed my hands in preparation for the praecatio.

Precatio

"Iuppiter Optime Maxime, rex Deorum, qui res publicas Novas Romanas nunc custodit defenditque perinde ac res publicas patrum nostrorum Romanorum custodivit defenditque, tibi fieri oportet in hoc tempore initii culignam vini dapi, eius rei ergo hac illace dape pullucenda esto [Iuppiter Best and Greatest, king of the Gods, who protects and defends the public affairs of Nova Roma just as he protected and defended the public affairs of our Roman fathers, to you it is proper for a cup of wine to be given in this time of beginning, for the sake of this thing may you be honoured by this feast offering]." I poured a libation from the patera on the focus of the altar.

"Iuno, regina Deorum, qui materne nunc Senatum Populumque Novae Romae nutrit perinde ac Senatum Populumque Romanum in tempore patrum nostrorum nutrivit, tibi fieri oportet in hoc tempore initii culignam vini dapi, eius rei ergo hac illace dape pullucenda esto [Iuno, queen
of the Gods, who maternally nurtures the Senate and People of Nova Roma just as she nurtured the Senate and People of Rome in the time of our fathers, to you it is proper for a cup of wine to be given in this time of beginning, for the sake of this thing may you be honoured by this feast offering]." I poured a libation from the patera on the focus of the altar.

"Minerva, sapientia aeterna, qui recte res publicas Novas Romanas ducit perinde ac res publicas patrum nostrorum Romanorum duxit, tibi fieri oportet in hoc tempore initii culignam vini dapi, eius rei ergo hac illace dape pullucenda esto [Minerva, eternal wisdom, who rightly guides the public affairs of Nova Roma just as she rightly guided the public affairs of our Roman fathers, to you it is proper for a cup of wine to be given in this time of beginning, for the sake of this thing may you be honoured by this feast offering]." I poured a libation from the patera on the focus of the altar.

Salus, benefactrix Senatus Populique Romani et fideiussorix salutis nostrae, qui Novam Romam conservat perinde ac Romam antiquam conservavit, tibi fieri oportet in hoc tempore initii culignam vini dapi, eius rei ergo hac illace dape pullucenda esto [Salus, benefactor of the Roman Senate and People and guarantor of our well-being, who preserves Nova Roma just as she preserved ancient Rome, to you it is proper for a cup of wine to be given in this time of beginning, for the sake of this thing may you be honoured by this feast offering]."

Again I washed my hands in preparation for the redditio.

Redditio

"Iuppiter Optime Maxime, rex Deorum, macte istace dape pollucenda esto, macte vino inferio esto [Iuppiter Best and Greatest, king of the Gods, may you be honoured by this feast offering, may you be honoured by the humble wine.]" I offered Iuppiter Optimus Maximus cakes, a leaf of laurel, and wine on the focus of the altar.

"Iuno, regina Deorum, macte istace dape pollucenda esto, macte vino inferio esto [Iuno, queen of the Gods, may you be honoured by this feast offering, may you be honoured by the humble wine.]" I offered Iuno cakes, a leaf of laurel, and wine on the focus of the altar.

"Minerva, sapientia aeterna, macte istace dape pollucenda esto, macte vino inferio esto [Minerva, eternal wisdom, may you be honoured by this feast offering, may you be honoured by the humble wine.]" I offered Minerva cakes, a leaf of laurel, and wine on the focus of the altar.

"Salus, benefactrix Novae Romae, macte istace dape pollucenda esto, macte vino inferio esto [Salus, benefactrix of Nova Roma, may you be honoured by this feast offering, may you be honoured by the humble wine.]" I offered Salus cakes, a leaf of laurel, and wine on the
focus of the altar.

"Quirine pater, uti te ture ommovendo bonas preces bene precatus sum, eiusdem rei ergo macte vino inferio esto [Father Quirinus, as by offering to you the incense virtuous prayers were well prayed, for the sake of this be honoured by this humble wine.]" I poured a libation from the patera on the focus of the altar.

"Mars pater, uti te ture ommovendo bonas preces bene precatus sum, eiusdem rei ergo macte vino inferio esto [Father Mars, as by offering to you the incense virtuous prayers were well prayed, for the sake of this be honoured by this humble wine.]" I poured a libation from the patera on the focus of the altar.

"Iane pater, uti te ture ommovendo bonas preces bene precatus sum, eiusdem rei ergo macte vino inferio esto [Father Ianus, as by offering to you the incense virtuous prayers were well prayed, for the sake of this be honoured by this humble wine.]" I poured a libation from the patera on the focus of the altar.

"Dea Vesta, custos ignis sacri, macte vino inferio esto [Goddess Vesta, guardian of the sacred fire, be honoured by this humble wine.]" I poured a libation from the patera on the focus of the
altar.

"Illicet. [It is over.]"

I profaned some of the wine and cakes, and consumed them, praying as I ate and offering libations in my private devotions.

Piaculum

Since the caerimonia of the consular sacrifice has yet to be reconstructed from literary or archaeological sources I concluded with a piaculum to Iuppiter Optimus Maximus, Iuno, Miverva, and Salus.

"Iuppiter Optime Maxmime, Iuno, Minerva et Salus, Di Immortales, si quidquam tibi in hac caerimonia displicet, hoc vino inferio veniam peto et vitium meum expio [Iuppiter Optimus Maximus, Iuno, Minerva, and Salus, Immortal Gods, if anything in this ceremony is displeasing
to you, with this humble wine I ask forgiveness and expiate my fault.]" I poured a libation on the focus of the altar.

Votum

Ego, Cn. Iulius Caesar, Consul Novae Romae, sacrificium Dis Immortalibus, Iovi, Iunoni, Minervae et Saluti pro salute rei publicae et senatus in Kalendis posteris Ianuarii voveo [I, Cn. Iulius Caesar, Consul of Nova Roma, vow a sacrifice to the Immortal Gods Iuppiter, Iuno, Minerva, and Salus on the next Kalends of January]."

I hope that the Dii Immortales will bless Nova Roma and all her citizens and that they strengthen our resolve to ensure that she triumphs over all adversity.

Good health and good fortune to you all in this coming year.

Optime valete.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86606 From: Cn. Iulius Caesar Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Consular oath of office.
Cn Iulius Caesar Quiritibus salutem plurimam dicit.

I, Gnaeus Iulius Caesar (Nigel Kell) do hereby solemnly swear
to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Gnaeus Iulius Caesar (Nigel Kell) swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

I, Gnaeus Iulius Caesar (Nigel Kell) swear to uphold and
defend the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to act in a way that would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Gnaeus Iulius Caesar (Nigel Kell) swear to protect and
defend the Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Gnaeus Iulius Caesar (Nigel Kell) further swear to fulfill
the obligations and responsibilities of the office of Consul to the best of my abilities.

-------------------

Ego, Gnaeus Iulius Caesar (Nigel Kell), hac re ipsa decus Novae Romae me defensurum, et semper pro populo senatuque Novae Romae acturum esse sollemniter IVRO.

Ego, Gnaeus Iulius Caesar (Nigel Kell) officio Consulis Novae Romae
accepto, deos deasque Romae in omnibus meae vitae publicae temporibus culturum, et virtutes Romanas publica privataque vita me persecuturum esse IVRO.

Ego, Gnaeus Iulius Caesar (Nigel Kell) Religioni Romanae me fauturum et eam defensurum, et numquam contra eius statum publicum me acturum esse, ne quid detrimenti capiat IVRO.

Ego, Gnaeus Iulius Caesar (Nigel Kell) consulis officiis muneris me quam optime functurum esse praeterea IVRO.

Meo civis Novae Romae honore, coram deis deabusque populi Romani, et
voluntate favoreque eorum, ego munus Consulis una cum iuribus, privilegiis, muneribus et officiis comitantibus ACCIPIO.

--------------
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86607 From: GAIUS MARCIUS CRISPUS Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Witnessing Imperium
Salvete omnes

I, Gaius Marcius Crispus, as a Lictor of Nova Roma, hereby witness the appointment of Gnaeus Iulius Caesar as Consul maior.

As a member of the Comitia Curiata I wish him good fortune in his office, and in his work on behalf of the Religio Romana.

Valete omnes
Gaius Marcius Crispus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86608 From: Belle Morte Statia Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Oath of Office--Praetor
Sta. Cornelia Valeriana Juliana Aeternia Quiritibus salutem dicit plurimam:

In the official languages of our republic in both English & Latin do I
hereby take this Oath of Office.

I,Statia Cornelia Valeriana Juliana Aeternia (K. Jennifer Harris ) do
hereby solemnly swear to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act
always in the best interests of the people and the Senate of Nova
Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I,Statia Cornelia Valeriana Juliana
Aeternia (K. Jennifer Harris) swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses
of Rome in my public dealings, and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my
public and private life.

I, Statia Cornelia Valeriana Juliana Aeternia (K. Jennifer Harris)
swear to uphold and defend the Religio Romana as the State Religion of
Nova Roma and swear never to act in a way that would threaten its
status as the State Religion.

I, Statia Cornelia Valeriana Juliana Aeternia (K. Jennifer Harris)
swear to protect and defend the Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Statia Cornelia Valeriana Juliana Aeternia (K. Jennifer Harris)
further swear to fulfill the obligations and responsibilities of the
office of Praetor to the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the Gods
and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do I
accept the position of Praetor and all the rights, privileges,
obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.


Ego, Statia Cornelia Valeriana Juliana Aeternia (K. Jennifer Harris )
hac re ipsa decus Novae Romae me defensuram, et semper pro populo
senatuque Novae Romae acturam esse sollemniter IVRO.

Ego,Statia Cornelia Valeriana Juliana Aeternia (K. Jennifer Harris)
officio Praetoris Novae Romae accepto, deos deasque Romae in omnibus
meae vitae publicae temporibus culturum, et virtutes Romanas publica
privataque vita me persecuturam esse IVRO.

Ego, Statia Cornelia Valeriana Juliana Aeternia (K. Jennifer Harris)
Religioni Romanae me fauturam et eam defensuram, et numquam contra
eius statum publicum me acturam esse, ne quid detrimenti capiat IVRO.

Ego, Statia Cornelia Valeriana Juliana Aeternia (K.Jennifer Harris)
officiis muneris Praetoris me quam optime functuram esse praeterea
IVRO.

Meo civis Novae Romae honore, coram deis deabusque populi Romani, et
voluntate favoreque eorum, ego munus Praetoris una cum iuribus,
privilegiis, muneribus et officiis comitantibus ACCIPIO.

Vale Optime,
Statia Cornelia Valeriana Juliana Aeternia
Praetrix
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86609 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Absence
Avete Omnes,

I will be away from Tuesday until most likely Friday. I will be going to
California to bury my grandmother. I might have some access but honestly,
it will not be foremost on my mind. I have yet to make all of my
personal arrangements but this is most likely it.

Vale,

Sulla


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86610 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Monday
Avete Omnes,

On Monday I will be calling Mr. Ainsworth and informing him that I am no
longer CFO of Nova Roma. I am going to tell him that I am not responsible
for paying the bills. And I will give him the specific reason, that I have
no faith, no confidence and believe that one of the Co-Presidents of the
corporation has no ethics and integrity and that I will not put myself in a
personal liability position under these conditions.

Nova Roma will need to find someone willing to take that risk.

I had complete faith and trust with Consuls Cato and Venator. I have
complete trust with Caesar.

As I pointed out in the ML, I will be absent beginning Tuesday for the
burial of my grandmother. I should be back on Friday.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

cc: the ML


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86611 From: GAIUS MARCIUS CRISPUS Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Witnessing Imperium
Salvete omnes

I, Gaius Marcius Crispus, as a Lictor of Nova Roma, hereby witness the appointment of Statia Cornelia Valeriana Iuliana Aeternia as Praetor Minor.

As a member of the Comitia Curiata I wish her good fortune in her office, and in her work on behalf of the Religio Romana.

Valete omnes
Gaius Marcius Crispus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86612 From: V. Valerius Volusus Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Re: CFO and Financial Questions
V. Valerius Volusus Consulibus Senatoribusque sal.

We need to be sure that Nova Roma has a financial manager with control over
the books, bank details, passwords and accounts. Can we please receive an
assurance from our new Consuls and/or Senators that a new CFO appointment
is in progress and when this can be expected to be resolved?

As Senator Sulla has stated, this is "a pressing matter". The people
certainly need to be kept informed about progress towards quickly resolving
this important financial management issue. That means we need to know who
is currently taking the lead and what the expectation should be with regard
to the schedule for a clean hand-off of responsibilities and data assets
currently held by our ex-CFO.

Thank you!

--
V. Valerius Volusus
Tribunus Plebis

*Public servant*: you don't need any prior introduction to contact me in
private if you
have any problems, worries or concerns about any aspect of Nova Roman
government.


On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 6:00 AM, Robert Woolwine
<robert.woolwine@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> Avete Omnes,
>
> It is now midnight Rome time. I wish all the incoming magistrates good
> luck in their new positions. I do have a pressing matter that needs an
> answer.
>
> In order for me to run for Consul, I complied with the Senatus Consulta and
> resigned as CFO. I was honored to be appointed by Edict by Consul Cato as
> Temporary CFO. Now, that edict is over. So, my question to the incoming
> magistrates is this:
>
> 1. Who do I send NR's books too?
> 2. Who is going to pay Mr. Ainsworth, Nova Roma's registered Agent?
> 3. Who is going to gain control of Nova Roma's bank account?
>
> Again, good luck!
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Sulla
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86613 From: C. Aemilius Crassus Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Re: Absence
Salve Sulla,

My sincere condolences to you and to your family.

Vale optime amice,
Crassus

Sent by iPhone

No dia 1 de Jan de 2012, às 17:58, Robert Woolwine <robert.woolwine@...> escreveu:

> Avete Omnes,
>
> I will be away from Tuesday until most likely Friday. I will be going to
> California to bury my grandmother. I might have some access but honestly,
> it will not be foremost on my mind. I have yet to make all of my
> personal arrangements but this is most likely it.
>
> Vale,
>
> Sulla
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86614 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Witnessing Imperium
I, Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix, as a Lictor of Nova Roma, hereby witness:
The appointments of
Cn. Iulius Caesar as consul maior,
C. Tullius Valerianus Germanicus as consul minor,
C. Petronius Dexter as praetor maior,
Statia Cornelia Valeriana Iuliana Aeternia as praetor minor of Nova Roma.

As a member of the Comitia Curiata I wish them good fortune in their
offices and in their work on behalf of the Religio Romana.

Respectfully,
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

Date. 1/1/12


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86615 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Re: CFO and Financial Questions
Cn Iulius Caesar V. Valerio Voluso sal.

It is at the top of my agenda. Let me explain the situation.

In Nova Roma all expenditures have to be authorized by the Senate. Obviously that is archaic. There has to be a method of settling small bills such as this without the long drawn out process of Senate calls. Currently if the Consuls don't call the Senate, the Praetors cannot unless the Consuls are absent. The Tribunes have limited ability related to their duties. Paying bills isn’t one of those functions. So in order to make the current system work the Consuls have to call the Senate. Naturally that requires auspices. This all takes time and if the auspices are unfavourable, more time while we try again. So legally we need Senate approval even if we have a CFO. Urgent bills cannot be settled. If we had already full control of the bank accounts, the PayPal account and a CFO in place this would just about work...just.

Now we have no CFO. Sulla obviously has his reasons for not wishing to continue. Once the Senate is called we will have to:

1. Find a way to pay the bill to Mr. Ainsworth
2. Appoint a new CFO
3. Get the transfer of signatures on the accounts done, and the PayPal account transferred too

The Bank of America requires the secretaries of the corporation (the Censors) sign off on the transfer forms. This involves work shuttling the forms back and forth. Someone has then to take the forms to the Bank of America and get them processed.

As I am in Canada and the Junior Consul is in the USA, I have already informed the Senate that in my opinion this task must fall to my colleague. He is better placed being in the USA to sort this out more expeditiously than I, since forms would have to cross a border to get to me adding further delays, and I don’t have access to a Bank of America (USA) – there are some BoA (Canada) branches around but they are a separate corporate entity and again forms would have to transit across borders and between branches even if they would do it. No, this must be the task for the Junior Consul and I, and I am sure the Senate and People, will be looking to him to solve this most pressing matter. It can begin to be actioned once we have the Senate call.

I hope this explains the situation and my position Tribune.

Optime vale

From: V. Valerius Volusus
Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2012 11:26 AM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] CFO and Financial Questions


V. Valerius Volusus Consulibus Senatoribusque sal.

We need to be sure that Nova Roma has a financial manager with control over
the books, bank details, passwords and accounts. Can we please receive an
assurance from our new Consuls and/or Senators that a new CFO appointment
is in progress and when this can be expected to be resolved?




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86616 From: V. Valerius Volusus Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Re: CFO and Financial Questions
V. Valerius Volusus Cn. Iulio Caesari Consuli sal.

Thank you for your very detailed explanation. I feel assured that you and
your colleague have this situation in hand and will keep us informed as
more information becomes available. It seems to be in the hands of the gods
at this point and we must all hope for favorable auspices, so that the
Senate may be convened quickly. I do appreciate you taking the time to
explain the situation for the benefit of all citizens and yes, you have
addressed my concerns completely Consul. I have full confidence that you
will ensure that the situation is quickly resolved.

Vale bene,

Volusus

On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 1:48 AM, Gnaeus Iulius Caesar <
gn_iulius_caesar@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Cn Iulius Caesar V. Valerio Voluso sal.
>
> It is at the top of my agenda. Let me explain the situation.
>
> In Nova Roma all expenditures have to be authorized by the Senate.
> Obviously that is archaic. There has to be a method of settling small bills
> such as this without the long drawn out process of Senate calls. Currently
> if the Consuls don't call the Senate, the Praetors cannot unless the
> Consuls are absent. The Tribunes have limited ability related to their
> duties. Paying bills isn�t one of those functions. So in order to make the
> current system work the Consuls have to call the Senate. Naturally that
> requires auspices. This all takes time and if the auspices are
> unfavourable, more time while we try again. So legally we need Senate
> approval even if we have a CFO. Urgent bills cannot be settled. If we had
> already full control of the bank accounts, the PayPal account and a CFO in
> place this would just about work...just.
>
> Now we have no CFO. Sulla obviously has his reasons for not wishing to
> continue. Once the Senate is called we will have to:
>
> 1. Find a way to pay the bill to Mr. Ainsworth
> 2. Appoint a new CFO
> 3. Get the transfer of signatures on the accounts done, and the PayPal
> account transferred too
>
> The Bank of America requires the secretaries of the corporation (the
> Censors) sign off on the transfer forms. This involves work shuttling the
> forms back and forth. Someone has then to take the forms to the Bank of
> America and get them processed.
>
> As I am in Canada and the Junior Consul is in the USA, I have already
> informed the Senate that in my opinion this task must fall to my colleague.
> He is better placed being in the USA to sort this out more expeditiously
> than I, since forms would have to cross a border to get to me adding
> further delays, and I don�t have access to a Bank of America (USA) � there
> are some BoA (Canada) branches around but they are a separate corporate
> entity and again forms would have to transit across borders and between
> branches even if they would do it. No, this must be the task for the Junior
> Consul and I, and I am sure the Senate and People, will be looking to him
> to solve this most pressing matter. It can begin to be actioned once we
> have the Senate call.
>
> I hope this explains the situation and my position Tribune.
>
> Optime vale
>
> From: V. Valerius Volusus
> Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2012 11:26 AM
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] CFO and Financial Questions
>
>
> V. Valerius Volusus Consulibus Senatoribusque sal.
>
> We need to be sure that Nova Roma has a financial manager with control over
> the books, bank details, passwords and accounts. Can we please receive an
> assurance from our new Consuls and/or Senators that a new CFO appointment
> is in progress and when this can be expected to be resolved?
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>



--
V. Valerius Volusus
Tribunus Plebis

*Public servant*: you don't need any prior introduction to contact me in
private if you
have any problems, worries or concerns about any aspect of Nova Roman
government.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86617 From: Timothy or Stephen Gallagher Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: FW: [Explorator] explorator 14.36-37
Salvete Romans A very interesting Vatican-associated Latin exam:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1velGoTCTxg&feature=uploademail
http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/homepage/inquiries-and-interviews/detail/articolo/latino-latin-latin-10963/
FYI Valete Ti. Galerius Paulinus
To: explorator@yahoogroups.com; BRITARCH@...
From: rogueclassicist@...
Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 11:50:16 -0500
Subject: [Explorator] explorator 14.36-37




























================================================================

explorator 14.36-37 January 1, 2012

================================================================

Editor's note: Most urls should be active for at least eight

hours from the time of publication.



For your computer's protection, Explorator is sent in plain text

and NEVER has attachments. Be suspicious of any Explorator which

arrives otherwise!!!



================================================================

================================================================

Thanks to Arthur Shippee, Dave Sowdon, David Critchley,

Diana Wright,Edward Rockstein, Rick Heli, Hernan Astudillo,

Patrick Swan, David Perlmutter, Barbara Saylor Rogers,

Feral Boy, Ann Williams, Trevor Ogden, Kurt Theis,

John McMahon, Barnea Selavan, Joseph Lauer,

Mata Kimasitayo, Mike Ruggeri, Richard Campbell,

Richard C. Griffiths, Bob Heuman, and Ross W. Sargent for headses

upses this week (as always hoping I have left no one out).



Happy New Year ... here's a big double issue to keep you occupied

while you recover from last night's fesivities (or just enjoy the day) ...

================================================================

EARLY HUMANS

================================================================

Rethinking the 'one species' idea:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-16339313



Evidence that early humans lived by rivers and streams:



http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-12-couple-evidence-indicating-earliest-humans.html



Was Sediba polygamous?:



http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2011/12/23/was-australopithecus-sediba-polygamous-paleontologist-answers-reader-questions-about-new-early-human-fossils/



On hunger and evolution:



http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/12/did-hunger-drive-the-evolution-of-homo-sapiens/



On the evolution of facial expressions:



http://medicalxpress.com/news/2011-12-emotion.html



Smithsonian's top ten hominid finds of the year:



http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/hominids/2011/12/top-10-hominid-discoveries-of-2011/



A skull study may have implications for evolution studies:



http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-12-human-skull-evolutionary-headache.html



A roundup of 2011's human origins news:



http://www.livescience.com/17559-human-origins-2011-discoveries.html



Our brains are bigger than a Neanderthal's, apparently:



http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45656171/ns/technology_and_science-science/



Review(ish) of Wynn and Coolidge, *How to Think Like a Neandertal*:



http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/28/books/how-to-think-like-a-neandertal-by-thomas-wynn-and-frederick-l-coolidge-review.html



More on Neanderthals building homes from mammoth bones:



http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-12-neanderthal-home-mammoth-bones-ukraine.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/8963177/Neanderthals-built-homes-with-mammoth-bones.html

================================================================

AFRICA

================================================================

Study on how human-started fires shaped Africa:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-16247844

================================================================

ANCIENT NEAR EAST AND EGYPT

================================================================

The biggest (and saddest) news of the past couple of weeks had to be

the burning of the Institute of Egypt:



http://www.artdaily.org/index.asp?int_sec=2&int_new=52575

http://www.israeltoday.co.il/News/tabid/178/nid/23061/language/en-US/Default.aspx

http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2011/12/linstitut-degypte-in-memorium

http://213.158.162.45/~egyptian/index.php?action=news&id=22770&title=A%20black%20Saturday%20for%20Egypt

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/dec/19/cairo-institute-burned-during-clashes

http://english.ahram.org.eg/News/29641.aspx

http://english.ahram.org.eg/~/NewsContent/9/43/29643/Heritage/Islamic/Archaeological-committee-to-inspect-burnt-Geograph.aspx

http://chronicle.com/blogs/global/clashes-in-egypt-leave-historical-archive-in-ruins/31704



... and there are already plans to restore it:



http://english.ahram.org.eg/~/NewsContent/9/43/30267/Heritage/Islamic/Action-taken-to-restore-Egypt-Scientific-Institute.aspx



... and there was a nice feature on the Description de l'Egypte which was

the

focus of many of the 'destruction reports':



http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/jonathanjonesblog/2011/dec/22/napoleon-bonaparte-egypt-lost-scrolls



A couple of very old sites on Mount Ararat (that aren't Noah's Ark):



http://www.artdaily.org/index.asp?int_sec=2&int_new=52602



... and they're still wondering about Saudi Arabia's 'Stonehenge':



http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/270529/20111221/saudi-arabia-s-stonehenge-mystery-remains-unsolved.htm



Oldest obsidian bracelet identified ... from Asikli Hoyuk:



http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-12-oldest-obsidian-bracelet-reveals-amazing.html



Possibly the oldest depiction of the Tower of Babel:



http://news.discovery.com/history/tower-of-babel-111227.html

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/12/19/ancient-texts-tell-tales-war-bar-tabs/(a

different spin)



Plenty of coverage for a clay "seal" (token, more likely) found in

Jerusalem's

Old City which confirms some ritual practices:



http://www.artdaily.org/index.asp?int_sec=2&int_new=52644

http://www.antiquities.org.il/about_eng.asp?Modul_id=14

http://www.newsdaily.com/stories/tre7bo07o-us-israel-archaeology/

http://www.physorg.com/news244375537.html

http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-12-ancient-jerusalem-linked-ritual.html

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/12/27/ancient-purity-seal-found-near-jerusalem-temple/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2078950/Ancient-seal-Jerusalems-second-temple.html

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/Culture/Lifestyle/2011/Dec-27/157984-archaeologists-uncover-ancient-seal-in-jerusalems-old-city.ashx

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45791046/ns/technology_and_science-science/

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/israeli-archaeologists-uncover-first-artifact-confirming-written-record-of-temple-worship-1.403505

http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/12/25/ancient-jewish-rituals-confirmed-by-discovery-of-purity-seal-israeli-archaeologists-say/

http://www.jpost.com/NationalNews/Article.aspx?id=250844



... on the 'token' theory:



http://withmeagrepowers.wordpress.com/2011/12/29/a-currency-exchange-token/



Jewish scrolls from a cave in Afghanistan?:



http://www.jpost.com/JewishWorld/JewishNews/Article.aspx?id=251657

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/228282

http://www.mako.co.il/news-israel/education/Article-1dda3f465509431017.htm



Some looted dishes were returned to Iraq:



http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/14/looted-dishes-used-in-art-project-returned-to-iraq/



A somewhat different mummy DNA study:



http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-12-mummy-dna-differentiate-croc-species.html



Tell Halaf has a web presence:



http://www.grabung-halaf.de/



Feature on Gohar Tepe:



http://www.payvand.com/news/11/dec/1288.html



The Avenue of Sphinxes will be opening to the public in a couple months:



http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/9/40/30048/Heritage/Ancient-Egypt/Avenue-of-sphinxes-to-open-to-public-in-March.aspx



A business park threatens the cite of Pasargadae:



http://www.payvand.com/news/11/dec/1314.html



Not sure where to put this 'love pipe' find:



http://news.discovery.com/history/love-pipe-unearthed-111230.html

http://www.antiquities.org.il/about_eng.asp?Modul_id=14



... or this item on indexing the Talmud:



http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/28/nyregion/an-index-for-the-talmud-after-1500-years.html



Need some features on the Maccabees:



http://www.jewishjournal.com/israel/article/on_the_trail_of_the_maccabees_20111222/

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/this-hannukah-take-a-tour-to-the-real-graves-of-the-maccabees-1.402568



... and Channukah:



http://www.thejewishweek.com/editorial_opinion/gary_rosenblatt/great_miracle_happened_where



Egypt's Ministry of Antiquities is dealing with budget problems:



http://english.ahram.org.eg/~/NewsContent/9/40/30376/Heritage/Ancient-Egypt/Egypts-Ministry-of-Antiquities-tackles-budget-cris.aspx



Review of *The Dovekeepers*:



http://www.ahherald.com/columns-mainmenu-28/bookmarks/12235-review-the-dovekeepers



Egyptology News Blog:



http://egyptology.blogspot.com/



Egyptology Blog:



http://www.egyptologyblog.co.uk/



Dr Leen Ritmeyer's Blog:



http://blog.ritmeyer.com/



Paleojudaica:



http://paleojudaica.blogspot.com/



Persepolis Fortification Archives:



http://persepolistablets.blogspot.com/

================================================================

ANCIENT GREECE AND ROME (AND CLASSICS)

================================================================

Concerns after bits apparently fell from the Colosseum:



http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-12-chunk-italy-colosseum.html

http://www.artdaily.org/index.asp?int_sec=2&int_new=52719

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/16357141

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2079103/Heads-Ancient-plaster-falls-Romes-2000-year-old-Colosseum-weeks-start-25-million-euro-renovation.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/italy-denies-the-colosseum-is-crumbling/2011/12/28/gIQAjHozMP_video.html

http://www.agi.it/english-version/italy/elenco-notizie/201112281254-cro-ren1034-no_damage_to_colosseum_yesterday

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4023701/Romes-Colosseum-in-new-fear.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-502927_162-57349383/italy-probes-report-that-colosseum-stones-fall/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/dec/27/colosseum-crumbling-claims-news-agency?newsfeed=true

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/chunk-rock-drops-off-italys-colosseum-163640505.html

http://www.theage.com.au/travel/travel-news/another-chunk-falls-off-colosseum-as-restoration-delay-drags-on-20111228-1pc1i.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45796675/ns/travel-destination_travel/

http://www.salon.com/2011/12/27/italy_probes_report_that_colosseum_stones_fall/



... but it's still open:



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/travelnews/8984407/Romes-Colosseum-remains-open-despite-damage-reports.html



Meanwhile, another column fell down in Pompeii:



http://www.ansamed.info/ansamed/en/news/nations/italy/2011/12/22/visualizza_new.html_17444594.html

http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/23/another-collapse-at-pompeii-renews-fears-about-its-fate/



Meanwhile, a Japanese businessman is stepping in to restore the pyramid of

Cestius:



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/8983766/Japanese-tycoon-steps-in-to-restore-dilapidated-treasure-in-Rome.html

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jAg7gkjrYhY6y4cE2WsR6jcyDmwg?docId=CNG.d633df7f7c7c83bf498110bef8fd0f81.91

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/japanese-investor-restore-ancient-roman-pyramid-174153677.html

http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/japanese-investor-to-restore-ancient-roman-pyramid/story-e6frfq80-1226233075621



Nice coverage of the second 'dig' season at the Mazotos shipwreck site:



http://www.cyprus-mail.com/antiquities-department/hull-ancient-ship-revealed/20111224



Nice feature on a curse tablet aimed at a greengrocer:



http://www.livescience.com/17589-ancient-curse-translated-greengrocer.html

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/deciphered-ancient-tablet-reveals-curse-greengrocer-124509227.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-205_162-57346451/curses-secret-of-ancient-imprecation-revealed/1,700



Attic vases influenced Cypriote pottery:



http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/12/111220133608.htm



Wroxeter Roman Villa needs some maintenance, apparently:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-shropshire-16356368

http://www.pasthorizonspr.com/index.php/archives/12/2011/repairing-wroxeters-roman-residence

cf:

http://www.cisionwire.com/english-heritage/r/roman-home-maintenance-at-wroxeter,c9202532



... but it's a popular tourist attraction:



http://www.shropshirestar.com/news/2011/12/28/wroxeter-roman-town-house-drawing-in-the-crowds/



Chedworth's Roman mosaics are going on display:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-16314704



Nice feature on the dig at Ulpia Traiana:



http://popular-archaeology.com/issue/december-2011/article/large-roman-city-uncovered-in-romania

http://presstv.com/detail/218212.html



Mary Beard was comparing Ghaddafi to Elagabalus:



http://in.news.yahoo.com/compelling-book-draws-comparison-between-elagabalus-gaddafi-101227878.html



... she was also speaking to the New York Public Library about why folks

should

learn Classics:



http://www.nypl.org/audiovideo/mary-beard

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2012/jan/12/do-classics-have-future/



A very interesting Vatican-associated Latin exam:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1velGoTCTxg&feature=uploademail

http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/homepage/inquiries-and-interviews/detail/articolo/latino-latin-latin-10963/



What Verity Platt is up to:



http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/Dec11/AncientLives.html

http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-12-verity-platt-uncovering-ancient-artists.html



An OBE for Paul Bidwell:



http://www.jarrowandhebburngazette.com/news/roman_expert_honoured_with_award_1_4104790



Criticizing Ben Hur:



http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2011/dec/22/ben-hur-reel-history



An ancient Roman bathhouse find from Jerusalem's Old City:



http://www.dailystar.com.lb/Culture/Art/Nov/24/Ancient-Roman-bathhouse-found-in-Jerusalems-Old-City.ashx



... which I think is different from this Byzantine one found in 'the

coastal hills of Judaea':



http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/150902

http://www.upi.com/Science_News/2011/12/20/Ancient-bathhouse-unearthed-in-Israel/UPI-26191324402198/



That proposed landfill site near Hadrian's Villa is still getting press

attention:



http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-500202_162-57349208/stink-raised-over-landfill-at-ancient-rome-site/



A couple of smuggled Roman statues are heading back to Italy:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-16193942

http://www.salon.com/2011/12/14/us_company_sends_italian_statues_home/



The impending sale of a pile of Classical sculptures from Ince Blundell

Hall is

causing a bit of a brouhaha:



http://www.theartnewspaper.com/articles/Historic+house+in+danger+of+losing+its+marbles/25329

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/art/8985450/Eminent-art-enthusiasts-demand-protection-of-Roman-marble.html



Botanists don't have to use Latin any more:



http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-12-ave-atque-vale-botany-hail.html

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/culturing-science/2011/12/28/botanists-finally-ditch-latin-and-paper-enter-21st-century/



Parthenon guards were/are on strike again:



http://ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite1_1_24/12/2011_419923



Review of *The Swerve*:



http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/dec/23/the-swerve-stephen-greenblatt-review



Review of Mitchell's *Iliad* translation:



http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/arts/books/an-iliad-for-our-times/article2282087/?utm_medium=Feeds%3A%20RSS%2FAtom&utm_source=Home&utm_content=2282087



Review(ish) of Alice Oswald, *Memorial*:



http://arts.nationalpost.com/2011/12/30/michael-lista-on-poetry-the-iliad-laid-bare/



Latest reviews from Scholia:



http://www.classics.ukzn.ac.za/reviews/



Latest reviews from BMCR:



http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/recent.html



Visit our blog:



http://rogueclassicism.com/

================================================================

EUROPE AND THE UK (+ Ireland)

================================================================

Finds from various stone age periods on Cyprus:



http://www.incyprus.com.cy/en-gb/Cyprus/4170/24673/important-finds



A 25000 years b.c. 'pendant' from the Iberian peninsula:



http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-12-irikaitz-archaeological-site-host.html

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2011-12/ef-ias122711.php

http://www.basqueresearch.com/berria_irakurri.asp?Berri_Kod=3671&hizk=I



Not quite sure where to put this discovery of Apollonia's eastern gate (and

other

things):



http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=135231

http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=132804



... or this Iron Age settlement site from Serbia:



http://www.ansamed.info/ansamed/en/news/nations/serbia/2011/12/20/visualizza_new.html_16462479.html



Looking for Viking evidence in Sherwood Forest:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-16206589



A new suggestion for the battle site where St Edmund was killed by Vikings:



http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-12-st-edmund-vikings-essex.html



Five medieval shipwrecks from Stockholm:



http://sg.news.yahoo.com/five-ancient-shipwrecks-found-central-stockholm-171403067.html



Medieval artifacts from a site in Estonia:



http://news.err.ee/culture/c3d84f35-c4af-453c-b34a-79468c6e4042



They're (finally) closing the major road near Stonehenge:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-16352307



... and they've located/confirmed the exact source of the stone used to

make the pile:



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/8964899/Scientists-locate-exact-source-of-Stonehenge-stone.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-west-wales-16245746

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/europe/news/article.cfm

http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-12-geologists-exact-source-stonehenge-stones.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2076050/Stonehenge-Has-mystery-stones-origin-solved.html



A wall collapse at Stirling Castle is providing some dig opportunities:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-16195566



Flowers threaten he Belgrade fortress:



http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-12-heritage-site.html



Feature on Kents Cave:



http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-12-heritage-site.html



A call to bury the "Irish Giant" has been rejected:



http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Royal-College-of-Surgeons-reject-bid-to-bury-skeleton-of-Irish-giant-136253638.html

http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-12-experts-urge-18th-century-irish-giant.html



Wikipedia is experimenting with a 'Monmouthpedia':



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-16359364



Some murals found at Chartres cathedral last year (did we know this?)

are being restored:



http://ceroart.revues.org/2200



Archaeology in Europe Blog:



http://archaeology-in-europe.blogspot.com/



================================================================

ASIA AND THE SOUTH PACIFIC

================================================================

A 'megalithic era' burial urn from Idukki:



http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/kerala/article2760861.ece



A pile of Chinese heritage sites have "disappeared":



http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-asia-china-16367488

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-16367488



Plans to make that Mongol shipwreck site off Nagasaki an historic site:



http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/nn20111231a7.html



Funding to restore sites damaged by floods in Ayutthaya:



http://www.pattayamail.com/localnews/pols-business-leaders-raise-850-000-baht-for-ayutthaya-ruins-restoration-9021



More on Asian dog origins:



http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-12-modern-dogs-asian-fusions-euro.html

http://www.news.ucdavis.edu/search/news_detail.lasso?id=10096



East Asian Archaeology:



http://eastasiablog.wordpress.com/2010/05/20/east-asian-archaeology-cultural-heritage-%E2%80%93-2052010/



Southeast Asian Archaeology Newsblog:



http://www.southeastasianarchaeology.com/



New Zealand Archaeology eNews:



http://www.nzarchaeology.org/netsubnews.htm

================================================================

NORTH AMERICA

================================================================

On the beneficial effects of breastfeeding in 19th century Montreal:



http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/12/111220133809.htm



Identifying an unknown Civil War soldier's ancestry:



http://www.tennessean.com/article/20111223/WILLIAMSON10/312230023/Civil-War-soldier-s-teeth-point-ancestry



A preservation-oriented purchase near Fort Edward:



http://wnyt.com/article/stories/s2420086.shtml?cat=10114



Plans to look for the remains of the Griffin in Lake Michigan:



http://wtaq.com/news/articles/2011/dec/19/researchers-claim-enough-evidence-to-look-for-shipwreck-near-ne-wisconsin/

http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2011/12/researchers_excavation_of_ship.html

http://www.aikenstandard.com/Nation/1219-ap-Researchers--Excavation-of-shipwreck-warranted



Canada might purchase back Amundsen's 'Maud':



http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-12-canada-amundsen-maud.html



Historians look at Congress:



http://www.npr.org/2011/12/27/144319863/congress-really-is-as-bad-as-you-think-scholars-say



Ontario has apparently laid off its marine archaeologist:



http://www.cottagecountrynow.ca/news/article/1272093--ontario-lays-off-its-marine-archeologist



Hmmm ... Maya in the US? (I don't think so):



http://www.examiner.com/architecture-design-in-national/massive-1-100-year-old-maya-site-discovered-georgia-s-mountains

================================================================

CENTRAL AND SOUTH AMERICA

================================================================

A mass grave at a Sican site in Peru:



http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/12/111228-mass-sacrifice-beer-headless-sican-pyramid-tomb-ancient-science/

http://www.peruthisweek.com/news-1204-Mass-pre-Inca-grave-found-in-Lambayeque-Peru/



DNA evidence for a paleolithic transatlantic migation?:



http://ohio-archaeology.blogspot.com/2011/12/rare-dna-variant-may-disprove.html



More finds from the Dillard site (Colorado):



http://popular-archaeology.com/issue/december-2011/article/excavation-providing-new-insights-to-the-rise-of-pueblos-of-the-american-southwest



Nice National Geographic piece on the 'golden chiefs' of Panama:



http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2012/01/nata-chiefs/williams-text

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2012/01/nata-chiefs/coventry-photography



Interesting study of slave remains in Rio:



http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/dec/20/rio-cemetery-of-the-new-blacks-brazil



Simon Bolivar got a new coffin:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-16236105



Mike Ruggeri's Ancient Americas Breaking News:



http://web.mac.com/michaelruggeri



Ancient MesoAmerica News:



http://ancient-mesoamerica-news-updates.blogspot.com/

================================================================

OTHER ITEMS OF INTEREST

================================================================

Audio News from Archaeologica (dec 11th-17th):



http://www.archaeologychannel.org/content/MP3/audnews18dec11.mp3



ArchaeoNews podcasts:



http://www.pasthorizonspr.com/index.php/archives/12/2011/archaeo-news-podcast-204(last

week)

http://www.pasthorizonspr.com/index.php/archives/12/2011/archaeo-news-podcast-205(this

week)



OK two part podcast on some of the interesting historical finds of the past

year:



http://podcasts.howstuffworks.com/hsw/podcasts/symhc/2011-12-26-symhc-unearthed-part-1.mp3

http://podcasts.howstuffworks.com/hsw/podcasts/symhc/2011-12-28-symhc-unearthed-part-2.mp3



The year came to an end with a declaration that the Shroud of Turin isn't

fake:



http://www.iol.co.za/scitech/science/discovery/turin-shroud-created-by-flash-of-supernatural-light-1.1202271

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-say-turin-shroud-is-supernatural-6279512.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2077341/The-Turin-shroud-DOES-miraculous-powers--Whether-genuine-not.html

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/shroud-turin-t-a-fake-researchers-scientists-unable-replicate-cloth-christ-like-image-article-1.995661

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/20/shroud-of-turin-jesus-burial-cloth-authentic_n_1161363.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/8966422/Italian-study-claims-Turin-Shroud-is-Christs-authentic-burial-robe.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2076443/Could-Shroud-Turin-real-Scientists-try-recreate-iconic-image-using-UV-lasers.html



... and the Vatican weighed in too:



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2080304/Vatican-says-Turin-Shroud-impossible-falsify--lending-weight-experiment-showed-blinding-flash.html

http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/homepage/inquiries-and-interviews/detail/articolo/sacra-sindone-holy-shroud-sabana-santa-10738/



... others weren't convinced:



http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tomchiversscience/100125247/the-turin-shroud-is-fake-get-over-it/



Getting rather less attention was the latest 'Holy Grail' claim:



http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/i-ve-cracked-mystery-of-the-holy-grail-1.977410



... and the solving of a 'yeti finger' mystery of long standing:



http://news.discovery.com/history/yeti-finger-mystery-solved-111229.html



The Vatican is also using NASA technology to preserve its library:



http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-12-star-images-vatican.html

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/vatican-uses-nasa-technology-preserve-ancient-tomes-131205544.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-215_162-57346198/nasa-tech-helping-preserve-vatican-holdings/



Italy's book hospital:



http://www.dailystar.com.lb/Culture/Travel-and-Tourism/2011/Dec-26/157920-a-human-touch-for-ancient-scripts-at-italys-book-hospital.ashx

http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-12-human-ancient-scripts-italy-hospital.html



The annual what-was-the-star-of-Bethlehem piece:



http://www.space.com/14036-christmas-star-bethlehem-comet-planet-theories.html



... and we might as well have something about frankincense:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-16270759



Forming plurals:



http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-12-s-plural-marker-foreign-import.html



Leonardo and the mathematics of trees:



http://www.npr.org/2011/12/26/144127874/the-wisdom-of-trees-leonardo-da-vinci-knew-it



In other Leonardo news ... a major brouhaha over restoration of one of his

works:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-16353587



Very interesting feature on a man who risked a court martial

to save a Renaissance fresco in WWII:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16306893



Nice feature on incunabula:



http://www.abebooks.co.uk/books/RareBooks/gutenberg-printing-press-incunable/incunabula.shtml



Malaria traced via DNA:



http://medicalxpress.com/news/2011-12-malaria-parasite-african-slave-south.html



Interesting series on Milton:



http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2011/nov/28/milton-paradise-lost-epic

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2011/dec/05/john-milton-epic-sacred-paradise-lost

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2011/dec/12/john-milton-paradise-lost-gods-ways

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2011/dec/19/john-milton-language-paradise-lost



Putting a somewhat positive spin on Herman Lundborg's 'eugenics' ideas:



http://scienceblogs.com/aardvarchaeology/2011/12/racist_eugenics_scholar_makes.php



Figuring out what Elizabeth Barrett Browning's chronic illness was:



http://medicalxpress.com/news/2011-12-elizabeth-barrett-browning-illness-deciphered.html



Using optical techniques to recover 125 years b.p. sound recordings:



http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-12-team-high-tech-optical-technique-year.html



Someone in Wales paid their tax bill with an Iron Age fire guard:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-16252711



Back to blaming Columbus for bringing back syphilis:



http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-12-skeletons-columbus-voyage-syphilis.html

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2011-12/eu-spt122011.php



On how deafness shaped Beethoven's music:



http://news.discovery.com/history/beethoven-deaf-compose-affect-music-111222.html



Another feature on Oxford's multispectral imaging thing:



http://www.economist.com/node/21540390

http://medicalxpress.com/news/2011-12-deafness-beethoven-music.html



Review of Joseph Epstein, *Gossip*:



http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/01/books/review/gossip-the-untrivial-pursuit-by-joseph-epstein-book-review.html



Review of P.D. James, *Death Comes to Pemberly*:



http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/27/books/death-comes-to-pemberley-by-p-d-james-review.html



http://www.ancientdigger.com/

================================================================

TOURISTY THINGS

================================================================

Ostia Antica:



http://travel.nytimes.com/2011/12/25/travel/in-ostia-antica-italy-clues-to-past-glories.html

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/travel/2017062363_tritaly26.html



Will tourists return to Libya?:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-16304439

================================================================

BLOGS

================================================================

About.com Archaeology:



http://archaeology.about.com/



Archaeology Briefs:



http://archaeologybriefs.blogspot.com/



Taygete Atlantis excavations blogs aggregator:



http://planet.atlantides.org/taygete/



Time Machine:



http://heatherpringle.wordpress.com/



================================================================

GENERAL MAGAZINES AND JOURNALS

================================================================

African Diaspora Newsletter (Dec. 2011):



http://www.diaspora.uiuc.edu/news1211/news1211.html



AJA 116.1:



http://www.ajaonline.org/toc/1161



================================================================

CRIME BEAT

================================================================

Brief item on vandals destroying some First Temple artifacts at Afula:



http://www.antiquities.org.il/article_Item_ido.asp?sec_id=25&subj_id=240&id=1888&module_id=#as

http://www.jpost.com/NationalNews/Article.aspx?id=250574

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4165627,00.html



Some Greek diggers were arrested in Bulgaria:



http://eu.greekreporter.com/2011/12/19/4-greek-treasure-hunters-arrested-in-bulgaria/



A 'relic hunter' was arrested while digging at Lake Travis:



http://dailytrib.com/all-other/12623-woman-is-charged-with-digging-at-indian-site/



I think we've had this 'Lava Treasure' story before:



http://www.newdesignworld.com/press/story/461288



Looting Matters:



http://lootingmatters.blogspot.com/



Illicit Cultural Property:



http://illicit-cultural-property.blogspot.com/



Safe Corner:



http://safecorner.savingantiquities.org/

================================================================

NUMISMATICA

================================================================

Bonham's is going to be selling a major Greek coin collection:



http://www.artdaily.org/index.asp?int_sec=2&int_new=52619



A pile of Roman coins found at a Somerset water treatment works

have been donated to a museum:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-16243681



Plenty of eSylums to catch up on:



http://www.coinbooks.org/club_nbs_esylum_v14n52.html

http://www.coinbooks.org/club_nbs_esylum_v14n53.html



... and possibly:



http://www.coinbooks.org/club_nbs_esylum_v14n54.html



Ancient Coin Collecting:



http://ancientcoincollecting.blogspot.com/



Ancient Coins:



http://classicalcoins.blogspot.com/



Coin Week:



http://www.coinweek.com/================================================================

EXHIBITIONS, AUCTIONS, AND MUSEUM-RELATED

================================================================

A Day in Pompeii:



http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/livingtravel/945058-224/frozen-in-time.html

http://www.concordmonitor.com/article/299771/the-last-days-of-pompeii



Vermeer:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-16264461



Dura Europos:



http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/20/science/dura-europos-a-melting-pot-at-the-intersection-of-empires.html



Drawings by Rembrandt:



http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/18/nyregion/rembrandt-drawings-on-display-at-the-bruce-in-greenwich.html



Birds of America:



http://www.courant.com/news/education/hc-trinity-rare-book-audubon-1228-20111227,0,7746877.story



Invention of the Savage:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16277976

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16295827

DSS:



http://brooklyn.ny1.com/content/ny1_living/arts/152207/biblical-scrolls-bring-times-square-visitors-back-to-ancient-israel



The Greatest Grid:



http://brooklyn.ny1.com/content/ny1_living/arts/153080/city-museum-explores-ins--outs-of-manhattan-s-200-year-old-grid



Dickens and London:



http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-12-19/dickens-s-london-bustled-with-crowded-pubs-bums-foul-odors-farah-nayeri.html



Tiffany paintings:



http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/25/nyregion/louis-comfort-tiffanys-paintings-displayed-on-long-island.html



Renaissance Portraits:



http://www.metmuseum.org/exhibitions/listings/2011/the-renaissance-portrait-from-donatello-to-bellini

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/23/arts/design/renaissance-portrait-from-donatello-to-bellini-review.html

http://www.thedailybeast.com/galleries/2011/12/19/renaissance-portraits-at-metropolitan-museum-photos.html



Money and Beauty:



http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/24/arts/24iht-strozzi24.html



Kindred Spirits:



http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/23/arts/design/kindred-spirits-at-peter-blum-gallery-in-soho.html



There's a permanent display of Cypriot antiquities in Stockholm:



http://www.cyprus-mail.com/archaeology/cypriot-antiquities-go-display-stockholm/20111219



The National Gallery of Scotland acquired a Turner:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-16303603



... and it (the Gallery) was the subject of a feature too:



http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/17/arts/17iht-scotportrait17.html



Christmas at the Acropolis Museum:



http://greece.greekreporter.com/2011/12/17/acropolis-museum-to-host-christmas-events/



Feature on some of the shows at the Park Avenue Armory:



http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/22/arts/the-park-avenue-armory-indisputably-big.html



Museums are lining up to get the Staffordshire Hoard:



http://www.birminghammail.net/news/top-stories/2011/12/28/american-museums-queuing-up-to-show-staffordshire-hoard-97319-30020103/



Assorted arts items of interest:



http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/23/arts/design/anti-semitic-artifacts-new-york-history-and-greek-coins.html



A 'Best of 2011' arts feature:



http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2011/12/18/arts/design/20111218-COTTER.html



Check out our Twitter hashtage for more ancient exhibition reviews:



http://search.twitter.com/search?q=%23classicalexhibit

================================================================

PERFORMANCES AND THEATRE-RELATED

================================================================

Stile Antico:



http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/20/arts/music/stile-antico-choir-at-corpus-christi-church-review.html



Messiah (different performances):



http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/21/arts/music/oratorio-society-of-new-yorks-messiah-review.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/22/arts/music/trinity-wall-street-and-musica-sacra-in-messiah-review.html

Early Music New York:



http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/27/arts/music/early-music-new-york-with-frederick-renz-review.html



Enchanted Island:



http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/25/arts/music/the-enchanted-island-a-baroque-mash-up-at-the-met.html



Great Expectations:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-16047263



Amadis de Gaule:



http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/21/arts/21iht-LOOMIS21.html?ref=arts



Albert Nobbs (movie):



http://movies.nytimes.com/2011/12/21/movies/albert-nobbs-movie-review.html



An overview of the past theatre season in London:



http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/28/arts/28iht-lon28.html



Review of Michael Broyles, *Beethoven in America*:



http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/19/books/beethoven-in-america-by-michael-broyles-review.html



Check out our Twitter hashtag for Ancient Drama reviews:



http://search.twitter.com/search?q=%23ancientdrama



... and for Sword and Sandal flicks:



http://search.twitter.com/search?q=%23swordandsandal

================================================================

OBITUARIES

================================================================

Emmett L. Bennett:



http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/01/science/emmett-l-bennett-jr-dies-at-93-helped-decipher-linear-b.html

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/12001/1200675-115-0.stm?cmpid=healthscience.xml



George Whitman:



http://www.salon.com/2011/12/15/paris_legendary_american_bookseller_dies/

================================================================

HUMOUR

================================================================

Messing with the Cairo Museum:



http://www.creators.com/comics/strange-brew/85530.html

================================================================

PODCASTS

================================================================

The Book and the Spade:



http://www.radioscribe.com/bknspade.htm



Stone Pages Archaeology News:



http://news.stonepages.com/



Archaeologica Audio News:



http://www.archaeologychannel.org/AudioNews.asp



Naked Archaeology Podcast:



http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/podcasts/archaeology/

================================================================

EXPLORATOR is a weekly newsletter representing the fruits of

the labours of 'media research division' of The Atrium. Various

on-line news and magazine sources are scoured for news of the

ancient world (broadly construed: practically anything relating

to archaeology or history prior to about 1700 or so is fair

game) and every Sunday they are delivered to your mailbox free of

charge!

================================================================

Useful Addresses

================================================================

Past issues of Explorator are available on the web via our

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Explorator is Copyright (c) 2012 David Meadows. Feel free to

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86618 From: Timothy or Stephen Gallagher Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Oath of Ti. Galerius Paulinus as Censor of Nova Roma
Oath of Ti. Galerius Paulinus as Censor of Nova Roma I, Tiberius Galerius Paulinus (Timothy P. Gallagher)do hereby solemnly swear to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma. As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Tiberius Galerius Paulinus (Timothy P. Gallagher) swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private life. I, Tiberius GaleriusPaulinus (Timothy P. Gallagher) swear to uphold and defend the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to act in a way that would threaten its status as the State Religion. I, Tiberius GaleriusPaulinus (Timothy P. Gallagher) swear to protect and defend the Constitution of Nova Roma. I, Tiberius Galerius Paulinus (Timothy P. Gallagher) further swear to fulfill the obligations and responsibilities of the office of Censor to the best of my abilities. Done today Hodi� Kal. Ian. � Cn. Caesare C. Tullio cos. � {{{2}}} a.u.c. est. "A"

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86619 From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: After every Kalends, Nones, Ides, the next day is "Ater", 1/2/2012,
Reminder from:   Nova-Roma Yahoo! Group
 
Title:   After every Kalends, Nones, Ides, the next day is "Ater"
 
Date:   Monday January 2, 2012
Time:   All Day
Repeats:   This event repeats every month.
Notes:   Ater (unlucky)
*Gods or Goddesses should not be invoked by name while indoors, and no celestial God or Goddess should be invoked by name while outdoors.
*Sacrifices should not be made, even at the lararium.
*These days are ill-omened to begin any new project since any new project would necessarily begin by performing a rite calling for the assistance of the gods. Such religious rites, beginning something new, are not to be performed.
*Avoid making journeys, or doing anything risky.
 
Copyright © 2012  Yahoo! Inc. All Rights Reserved | Terms of Service | Privacy Policy
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86620 From: Steven "Venator" Robinson Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Re: Resignation of Consular Imperium
Salve et salvete;

I effectively abdicated quite some time ago and would like to thank C
Equitius especially, but all of our Magistrates, Senators, Pontiffs
and Cives for carrying on.

I do formally lay down any Imperium I may still possess and ask that
the Holy Powers watch over Nova Roma and Her people.

As I relearn our community, I hope that I may be of some utility going forward.

I am battered and bruised, but not broken.

Vale et valete - Venator
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86621 From: Steven "Venator" Robinson Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Re: Witnessing Imperium
Salve et Salvete;

I, Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator, as a Lictor of Nova Roma,
hereby witness the election to office within Nova Roma of:

Cn. Iulius Caesar as consul maior...
C. Tullius Valerianus Germanicus as consul minor...
C. Petronius Dexter as praetor maior...
Statia Cornelia Valeriana Iuliana Aeternia as praetor minor...

As a member of the Comitia Curiata may Bona Fortuna smile on them in
performance of their duties as they work on behalf of the Res Publica,
including the growth of the Religio Romana as the heart of our State.

Vale et Valete
P Ullerius Stephanus Venator
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86622 From: Steven "Venator" Robinson Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Congratulations...
Salve et salvete;

I am slowly working my way through the near 1000 messages in my backlog...

However, I did see the results for the major magistrates.

Consuls: Cn. Iulius Caesar and C. Tullius Valerianus Germanicus

Praetors: C. Petronius Dexter and S. Cornelia Valerana Iuliana Aeternia

Censors: Ti. Galerius Paulinus and A. Tullia Scholastica

Not a dud in the bunch, good minds and hearts, every man and woman above listed.

Nova Roma abides, and Gods willing, thrives.

Bona Fortuna!

Venator
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86623 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Omnymi
A. Tullia Scholastica quiritibus bonae voluntatis S.P.D.

Hoping that we may perform this duty at this time, I am appending the
Latin oath of office below. The mandatory English version will follow.

=======



Ego, A. Tullia Scholastica, hac re ipsa decus Novae Romae me defensuram, et
semper pro populo senatuque Novae Romae acturam esse sollemniter IVRO.

Ego, A. Tullia Scholastica, officio censoris Novae Romae accepto, deos
deasque Romae in omnibus meae vitae publicae temporibus culturum, et
virtutes Romanas publica privataque vita me persecuturam esse IVRO.

Ego, A. Tullia Scholastica, Religioni Romanae me fauturam et eam defensuram,
et numquam contra eius statum publicum me acturam esse, ne quid detrimenti
capiat IVRO.

Ego, A. Tullia Scholastica, officiis muneris censoris me quam optime
functuram esse praeterea IVRO.

Meo civis Novae Romae honore, coram deis deabusque populi Romani, et
voluntate favoreque eorum, ego munus censoris una cum iuribus, privilegiis,
muneribus et officiis comitantibus ACCIPIO.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86624 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Testificationes
Salvete!

Ego, A. Tullia Scholastica, lictrix curiata Novae Romae testificor:

Cn. Iulium Caesarem consulem maiorem,
C. Tullium Valerianum Germanicum consulem minorem,
C. Petronium Dextrum praetorem maiorem,
Statiam Corneliam Valerianam Iulianam Aeterniam praetricem minorem
Novae Romae creari.

Lictrix Comitiorum Curiatorum eis opto ut pro religione Romana felicissime
officiis muneribusque suis fungantur.

Kal. Jan. MMXII


I, A. Tullia Scholastica, as a Lictor of Nova Roma, hereby witness the
appointments of:

Cn. Iulius Caesar as consul maior,
C. Tullius Valerianus Germanicus as consul minor,
C. Petronius Dexter as praetor maior,
Statia Cornelia Valeriana Iuliana Aeternia as praetrix minor of Nova
Roma.

As a member of the Comitia Curiata I wish them good fortune in their offices
and in their work on behalf of the Religio Romana.

Respectfully,

A. Tullia Scholastica








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86625 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Consular oath of office
I, Gaius Tullius Valerianus Germanicus (Colin Brodd) do hereby solemnly
swear
to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best interests
of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Gaius Tullius Valerianus Germanicus
(Colin Brodd) swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public
dealings, and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

I, Gaius Tullius Valerianus Germanicus (Colin Brodd) swear to uphold and
defend the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear
never to act in a way that would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Gaius Tullius Valerianus Germanicus (Colin Brodd) swear to protect and
defend the Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Gaius Tullius Valerianus Germanicus (Colin Brodd) further swear to
fulfill
the obligations and responsibilities of the office of Consul to the best of
my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the Gods and
Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do I accept the
position of consul and all the rights, privileges, obligations, and
responsibilities attendant thereto

-------------------

Ego, Gaius Tullius Valerianus Germanicus (Colin Brodd) , hac re ipsa decus
Novae Romae me defensurum, et semper pro populo senatuque Novae Romae
acturum esse sollemniter IVRO.

Ego, Gaius Tullius Valerianus Germanicus (Colin Brodd) officio Consulis
Novae Romae
accepto, deos deasque Romae in omnibus meae vitae publicae temporibus
culturum, et virtutes Romanas publica privataque vita me persecuturum esse
IVRO.

Ego, Gaius Tullius Valerianus Germanicus (Colin Brodd) Religioni Romanae
me fauturum et eam defensurum, et numquam contra eius statum publicum me
acturum esse, ne quid detrimenti capiat IVRO.

Ego, Gaius Tullius Valerianus Germanicus (Colin Brodd) consulis officiis
muneris me quam optime functurum esse praeterea IVRO.

Meo civis Novae Romae honore, coram deis deabusque populi Romani, et
voluntate favoreque eorum, ego munus Consulis una cum iuribus, privilegiis,
muneribus et officiis comitantibus ACCIPIO.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86626 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Witness Statements
Ego, C. Tullius Valerianus Germanicus, lictor curiatus Novae Romae
testificor:

Cn. Iulium Caesarem consulem maiorem,
C. Tullium Valerianum Germanicum consulem minorem,
C. Petronium Dextrum praetorem maiorem,
Statiam Corneliam Valerianam Iulianam Aeterniam praetricem minorem
Novae Romae creari.

Lictor Comitiorum Curiatorum eis opto ut pro religione Romana felicissime
officiis muneribusque suis fungantur.

Kal. Jan. A.U.C. MMDCCLXV

I, C. Tullius Valerianus Germanicus, as a Lictor of Nova Roma, hereby
witness the
appointments of:

Cn. Iulius Caesar as consul maior,
C. Tullius Valerianus Germanicus as consul minor,
C. Petronius Dexter as praetor maior,
Statia Cornelia Valeriana Iuliana Aeternia as praetrix minor of Nova
Roma.

As a member of the Comitia Curiata I wish them good fortune in their offices
and in their work on behalf of the Religio Romana.

The Kalends of January, from the founding of Rome 2765 years


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86627 From: Gaius Tullius Valerianus Date: 2012-01-01
Subject: Auspices for a New Year
Gaius Tullius Valerianus Germanicus Augur Quiritibus omnibus S.P.D.

*Salvete omnes!*
*
*
I would like to announce that earlier today I took auspices for this new
year, as both augur and consul of our Republic. The sky was completely
cloudless and clear. There were no negative omens, though I regret to say
very few positive omens either - some birds moving distantly in a favorable
quadrant of the sky, but nothing exceptional.

It would seem that the gods are cautiously favorable to this new year,
perhaps waiting to see what we do before committing to anything strongly.
Yet the omen*s *were certainly good ones. I suggest we move forward as a
Republic in a manner befitting, with caution and prudence. The auspices
indicate the gods are with us, we must make certain that we are with them.

*Valete!*


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86628 From: Spurius Porcius Date: 2012-01-02
Subject: ancient Roman traditions
salvete!
I would like to let you know, citizens of Nova Roma, that following ancient
Roman traditions, I will hold reenactment gladiatorial games upon my being
elevated to the rank of QVAESTOR. Unfortunately, I don't know the exact
date, but it would be around spring. I will inform you later.
--
Spurius Porcius Gemma


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86629 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2012-01-02
Subject: Re: Gratias!
>
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica V. Valerio Voluso S.P.D.
>
>
> V. Valerius Volusus A. Tulliae Scholasticae S.P.D.
>
> Congratulations on your success in the elections, to both yourself and
> Paulinus!
>
> Thank you very much! I am still recovering from the shock!
>
> I think the people have chosen very well and that we now have two
> of our finest and outstanding citizens serving in the office of Censor. It
> is sad to see our noble Titus Sabinus step down, after serving his two
> years so admirably, but his wisdom and graciousness remains within Nova
> Roma. His will be a presence that will always loom large in my esteem.
>
> Indeed, we shall miss him. Anything Sabinus did, he did well.
>
> I am also happy to see that both you and our new Praetor Petronius Dexter
> have been elected to office, despite any possible attempt by outside
> parties to cast doubt upon either of you.
>
> Someone apparently tried to do just that. It¹s too soon to know what the
> motives were, but casting doubt on both of us was a side effect, whether or
> not intended.
>
>
> The Nova Roman people are all too
> aware of your impeccable loyalty to the Respublica and the high moral
> integrity of both of you - we have voted accordingly. Despite attempts to
> interfere with our election process, it failed to send any significant
> shock waves or get the reaction that may have been intended. This is a
> victory for us all. It shows that, as good Romans, we can keep calm and
> focused under conditions of extreme danger and adversity.
>
> That we can...or most of us, anyway! The decapitated chicken model is
> none too Roman...
>
> Good luck in all your endeavors!
>
> Thank you, and the same to you!
>
> Vale optime,
>
> Et tu!




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86630 From: James V Hooper Date: 2012-01-02
Subject: Re: Congratulations...
Salve,
May I join with Venator, and echo his congradulations for the newly elected
magistrates. Serve well with our blessings.
Vale,
C. Pompeius Marcellus


On Sun, 1 Jan 2012 20:08:28 -0600
"Steven \"Venator\" Robinson" <p.ullerius.stephanus@...> wrote:
> Salve et salvete;
>
> I am slowly working my way through the near 1000 messages in my backlog...
>
> However, I did see the results for the major magistrates.
>
> Consuls: Cn. Iulius Caesar and C. Tullius Valerianus Germanicus
>
> Praetors: C. Petronius Dexter and S. Cornelia Valerana Iuliana Aeternia
>
> Censors: Ti. Galerius Paulinus and A. Tullia Scholastica
>
> Not a dud in the bunch, good minds and hearts, every man and woman above
>listed.
>
> Nova Roma abides, and Gods willing, thrives.
>
> Bona Fortuna!
>
> Venator
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86631 From: Clint Johnson Date: 2012-01-02
Subject: (no subject)
Ego, C. Vipsanius Agrippa, lictor curiatus Novae Romae

testificor:



Cn. Iulium Caesarem consulem maiorem,

C. Tullium Valerianum Germanicum consulem minorem,

C. Petronium Dextrum praetorem maiorem,

Statiam Corneliam Valerianam Iulianam Aeterniam praetricem minorem

Novae Romae creari.



Lictor Comitiorum Curiatorum eis opto ut pro religione Romana felicissime

officiis muneribusque suis fungantur.



a.d. IV Non. Ian. A.U.C. MMDCCLXV



I, C. Vipsanius Agrippa, as a Lictor of Nova Roma, hereby

witness the

appointments of:



Cn. Iulius Caesar as consul maior,

C. Tullius Valerianus Germanicus as consul minor,

C. Petronius Dexter as praetor maior,

Statia Cornelia Valeriana Iuliana Aeternia as praetrix minor of Nova

Roma.



As a member of the Comitia Curiata I wish them good fortune in their offices

and in their work on behalf of the Religio Romana.



The fourth day before the Kalends of January, from the founding of Rome 2765 years

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86632 From: GAIUS MARCIUS CRISPUS Date: 2012-01-02
Subject: Witnessing Imperium
Salvete omnes

I, Gaius Marcius Crispus, as a Lictor of Nova Roma, hereby witness the appointment of C. Tullius Valerianus Germanicus as Consul minor of Nova Roma.

As a member of the Comitia Curiata I wish him good fortune in his office, and in his work on behalf of the Religio Romana.

Valete omnes
C. Marcius Crispus

Date 2 January 2012.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86633 From: V. Valerius Volusus Date: 2012-01-02
Subject: EDICTUM TRIBUNICIUM: DE CREATIONE ACCENSO
TRIBUNE V. VALERIUS VOLUSUS EDICT # I
ON THE DESIGNATION OF AN ASSISTANT

I, Vibius Valerius Volusus, Tribune of the Plebs, by the authority vested
in me by the Constitution and the laws of Nova Roma,

On sight of the Constitution of Nova Roma, especially its articles
IV.A.7.d.4 and IV.A.9;
On sight of the Lex Arminia de ministris tribunorum of June 30, 2757
a.u.c.;
On sight of Tribunus Plebis Aemilius Crassus Edict December 10, 2764 a.u.c,
proclaiming the results of comitia tributa plebis elections.

Stating that Lucius Lucretius Caupo fulfills all required conditions,
particularly to belong to the plebeian order;
*
**Article 1:*
Lucius Lucretius Caupo is appointed Viator Tribunorum (Tribune assistant).
*
**Article 2:*
The Viator acts on the sole authority of Tribune V. Valerius Volusus, with
a delegation of authority in the fields assigned by this Tribune and which
the Constitution and the laws allow the Tribune to delegate. The Viator is
responsible, under the Tribune V. Valerius Volusus' control, to provide
legislative research and to review and correct any and all copy text,
produced by the Tribune, checking for errors. These, and any other duties
that might be assigned. This delegation of authority can be withdrawn by
the Tribune V. Valerius Volusus at any time.

*Article 3*:
The Viator may also be asked to assist the colleagues of Tribune V.
Valerius Volusus, specifically to assist with mutual projects between the
Tribuni; subject always to the approval of Tribune V. Valerius Volusus. To
this end the Viator will also be granted access to the Tribunes list; at
the mutual discretion and agreement of all the Tribuni Plebis.

*Article 4:*
Viator Lucius Lucretius Caupo is subject to a duty of discretion. He thus
commits himself not to disclose any information, outside Tribune V.
Valerius Volusus' department or the private discussion areas shared by all
the Tribuni Plebis, without the prior authorization of the Tribune.

*Article 5: *
This edict is effective immediately.
*
Article 6:*
No oath of office is required.
*
Issued in the city of Chiang Mai, Thailand
a. d. III Non. Ian. MMDCCLXV A.U.C.
Cn. Iulio Caesare C. Tullio Valeriano coss.*

--
V. Valerius Volusus
Tribunus Plebis

*Public servant*: you don't need any prior introduction to contact me in
private if you
have any problems, worries or concerns about any aspect of Nova Roman
government.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86634 From: L. Lucretius Caupo Date: 2012-01-02
Subject: Re: EDICTUM TRIBUNICIUM: DE CREATIONE ACCENSO
L. Lucretius Caupo V. Valerio Voluso Tribuno Plebis, quiritibusque omnibus,
salvete:



I am very grateful for this privilege of service, Tribune, and honored to
have such trust placed in me. Be assured that I will perform my duties and
assignments as viator with great enthusiasm and devotion to the Res Publica!



Gratias quiritibus Novae Romae ago!



Optime Valete,



L.LVCRETIVS.CAVPO

Viator Tribunorum







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86635 From: C. Maria Caeca Date: 2012-01-02
Subject: Re: New Year greetings
Omnibus in foro S. P. D.

Sorry to be late ...was forcibly incommunicado since Wednesday night. But, I wish a very happy new year to all of you, and a very good, productive and busy year for Nova Roma. We have a great deal of work to do ...so let's get ...working!

Valete quam optime!
C. Maria Caeca

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86636 From: C. Aemilius Crassus Date: 2012-01-03
Subject: Witnessing Imperium
I, Gaius Aemilius Crassus, as a Lictor of Nova Roma, hereby witness:

The appointments of

Cn. Iulius Caesar as consul maior,

C. Tullius Valerianus Germanicus as consul minor,

C. Petronius Dexter as praetor maior,

Statia Cornelia Valeriana Iuliana Aeternia as praetor minor of Nova Roma.

As a member of the Comitia Curiata I wish them good fortune in their offices
and in their work on behalf of the Religio Romana.



Respectfully,

Gaius Aemilius Crassus



Date: 3 January 2012

_____

Ego, Gaius Aemilius Crassus , lictor curiatus Novae Romae testificor:

Cn. Iulium Caesarem consulem maiorem,

C. Tullium Valerianu Germanicum consulem minorem,

C. Petronium Dextrum praetorem maiorem,

Statiam Corneliam Valerianam Iulianam Aeterniam praetorem minorem

Novae Romae creari.

Lictor Comitiorum Curiatorum eis opto ut pro religione Romana felicissime
officiis muneribusque suis fungantur.

Datum a.d. III Non. Ian. 2765 AVC



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86637 From: Gaius Date: 2012-01-03
Subject: Witnessing Imperium
Salvete -

I, Gaius Popillius Laenas, as a Lictor of Nova Roma, hereby witness: The appointments of

Cn. Iulius Caesar as consul maior,
C. Tullius Valerianus Germanicus as consul minor,
C. Petronius Dexter as praetor,
Statia Cornelia Valeriana Iuliana Aeternia as praetrix.

There is no Praetor maior or minor in NR.

Valete,

C. Popillius Laenas
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86638 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-03
Subject: a.d. III Non. Ian.
Cato omnibus in foro SPD

Hodiernus dies est ante diem III Nonas Ianuarius; hic dies fastus est.


"But others, who hold that nothing bordering on the fabulous has any
place in historical writing, declare that the exposing of the babes by
the servants in a manner not in accordance with their instructions is
improbable, and they ridicule the tameness of the she-wolf that
suckled the children as a story full of melodramatic absurdity. In
place of this they give the following account of the matter: Numitor,
upon learning that Ilia was with child, procured other new-born
infants and when she had given birth to her babes, he substituted the
former in place of the latter. Then he gave the supposititious
children to those who were guarding her at the time of her delivery to
be carried away, having either secured the loyalty of the guards by
money or contrived this exchange by the help of women; and when
Amulius had received them, he made away with them by some means or
other. As for the babes that were born of Ilia, their grandfather, who
was above all things solicitous for their preservation, handed them
over to Faustulus. This Faustulus, they say, was of Arcadian
extraction, being descended from those Arcadians who came over with
Evander; he lived near the Palatine hill and had the care of Amulius'
possessions, and he was prevailed on by his brother, named Faustinus,
who had the oversight of Numitor's herds that fed near the Aventine
hill, to do Numitor the favour of bringing up the children. They say,
moreover, that the one who nursed and suckled them was not a she-wolf,
but, as may well be supposed, a woman, the wife of Faustulus, named
Laurentia, who, having formerly prostituted her beauty, had received
from the people living round the Palatine hill the nickname of Lupa.
This is an ancient Greek term applied to women who prostitute
themselves for gain; but they are now called by a more respectable
name, hetaerae or "companions." But some who were ignorant of this
invented the myth of the she-wolf, this animal being called in the
Latin tongue lupa. The story continues that after the children were
weaned they were sent by those who were rearing them to Gabii, a town
not far from the Palatine hill, to be instructed in Greek learning;
and there they were brought up by some personal friends of Faustulus,
being taught letters, music, and the use of Greek arms until they grew
to manhood. After their return to their supposed parents the quarrel
arose between them and Numitor's herdsmen concerning their common
pastures; thereupon they beat Numitor's men so that these drove away
their cattle, doing this by Numitor's direction, to the intent that it
might serve as a basis for his complaints and at the same time as an
excuse for the crowd of herdsmen to come to town. When this had been
brought about, Numitor raised a clamour against Amulius, declaring
that he was treated outrageously, being plundered by the herdsmen of
Amulius, and demanding that Amulius, if he was not responsible for any
of this, should delivering to him the herdsman and his sons for trial;
and Amulius, wishing to clear himself of the charge, ordered not only
those who were complained of, but all the rest who were accused of
having been present at the conflict, to come and stand trial before
Numitor. Then, when great numbers came to town together with the
accused, ostensibly to attend the trial, the grandfather of the youths
acquainted them with all the circumstances of their fortune, and
telling them that now, if ever, was the time to avenge themselves, he
straightway made his attack upon Amulius with the crowd of herdsmen.
these, then, are the accounts that are given of the birth and rearing
of the founders of Rome." - Dionysius of Halicarnassus, "Roman
Antiquities" 1.84


"His second wife was radiant Themis; she bore the Seasons,
Lawfulness and Justice and blooming Peace,
who watch over the works of mortal men..." - Hesiod, Theogony, 901-3

Open of yourselves, you doors, for mighty Ploutos (Wealth) will enter
in, and with Ploutos comes jolly Euphrosyne (Mirth) and gentle Eirene
(Peace). " - Homer's Epigrams XV

"And with a heart unsullied labours for Eirene, the city's friend." -
Pindar, Odes Olympian 4

"How far peace outweighs war in benefits to man; Eirene (Peace), the
chief friend and cherisher of the Mousai (Muses); Eirene (Peace), the
enemy of revenge, lover of families and children, patroness of wealth.
Yet these blessings we viciously neglect, embrace wars; man with man,
city with city fights, the strong enslaves the weak." - Euripides,
Suppliant Women 484

"The Horai, as they are called, to each of them, according as her name
indicates, was given [assigned by Zeus and Hera] the ordering and
adornment of life, so as to serve to the greatest advantage of
mankind; for there is nothing which is better to build a life of
felicity than obedience to law (Eunomia) and justice (Dike) and peace
(Eirene)." - Diodorus Siculus, Library of History 5.72.5

Today is held in honor of the goddess Pax. On the Campus Martius
(Field of Mars, the god of war), she had a minor sanctuary called the
Ara Pacis, dedicated to her on January 30, 9 B.C. Her temple was on
the Forum Pacis (Templum Placis) built on the site of a meat market by
Vespasian, which was dedicated in A.D. 75. She was depicted in art
with olive branches, a cornucopia and a sceptre. Pax became
celebrated (in both senses of the word) as Pax Romana and Pax Augusta
from the 2nd century B.C.

In Greek mythology, she was Eirene or Irene ("peace"), daughter of
Zeus and Themis, one of the first generation of Horae. The Horae (the
Hours, or Seasons) were Pax and her sisters Lawfulness, Wisdom and
Order (Eunomia) and Justice (Justitia/Dike). are sometimes considered
to be the three aspects of Themis. As goddesses of the seasons, they
brought order to nature. Eirene was the personification of peace and
wealth and was depicted in art as a beautiful young woman carrying a
cornucopia, sceptre and a torch or rhyton.


Valete bene!

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86639 From: C. Cocceius Spinula Date: 2012-01-03
Subject: Witnessing imperium
Salvete Quirites,
 
Ego, C. Cocceius Spinula, lictor curiatus Novae Romae testificor:

Cn. Iulium Caesarem consulem maiorem,
C. Tullium Valerianum Germanicum consulem minorem,
C. Petronium Dextrum praetorem maiorem,
Statiam Corneliam Valerianam Iulianam Aeterniam praetricem minorem
Novae Romae creari.

Lictor Comitiorum Curiatorum eis opto ut pro religione Romana felicissime officiis muneribusque suis fungantur.

---
 
I, C. Cocceius Spinula, as a Lictor of Nova Roma, hereby witness the appointments of:
 
Cn. Iulius Caesar as consul maior,
C. Tullius Valerianus Germanicus as consul minor,
C. Petronius Dexter as praetor maior,
Statia Cornelia Valeriana Iuliana Aeternia as praetrix minor
of Nova Roma.

As a member of the Comitia Curiata I wish them good fortune in their offices and in their work on behalf of the Religio Romana.


Optime valete,

Gaius Cocceius Spinula

a.d. III Non. Ian. A.U.C. MMDCCLXV

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86640 From: Denise D. Date: 2012-01-03
Subject: Back to work
Salvete!

My father is recovering very well. I want to thank all nova-romans that expressed support and I wish that the gods return blessings in your lives and your family lives too.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86641 From: V. Valerius Volusus Date: 2012-01-03
Subject: Re: Back to work
Salve Collega!

I am overjoyed to hear that your father is on the road to recovery! My
thoughts and prayers have been with you and your family. It's good to have
you back with us, Tribuna!

Happy New Year!

Volusus

On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 12:59 AM, Denise D. <aemilia.regilla@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> Salvete!
>
> My father is recovering very well. I want to thank all nova-romans that
> expressed support and I wish that the gods return blessings in your lives
> and your family lives too.
>
--
V. Valerius Volusus
Tribunus Plebis

*Public servant*: you don't need any prior introduction to contact me in
private if you
have any problems, worries or concerns about any aspect of Nova Roman
government.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86642 From: Belle Morte Statia Date: 2012-01-03
Subject: Re: Back to work
Salve et Salvete,

Good news to hear, may he continue to be well.

Vale et Valete bene,
Aeternia


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86643 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2012-01-03
Subject: Lictor - witnessing
Cn. Iulius Caesar sal.
 
I, Gnaeus Iulius Caesar, as a Lictor of Nova Roma, hereby witness: 

The appointments of 

Cn. Iulius Caesar as consul maior,
C. Tullius Valerianus Germanicus as consul minor,
C. Petronius Dexter as praetor maior,
S. Cornelia Valerana Iuliana Aeternia as praetor minor of Nova Roma.
 
As a member of the Comitia Curiata I wish them good fortune in their offices and in their work on behalf of the Religio Romana.
 
---------------------------------
 
Ego, Gnaeus Iulius Caesar , lictor curiatus Novae Romae testificor:
 
Cn. Iulium Caesarem consulem maiorem,
C. Tullium Valerianu Germanicum consulem minorem,
C. Petronium Dextrum praetorem maiorem,
Statiam Corneliam Valerianam Iulianam Aeterniam praetorem minorem

Novae Romae creari.
 
Lictor Comitiorum Curiatorum eis opto ut pro religione Romana felicissime officiis muneribusque suis fungantur. 
 
a.d. III Non. Ian. MMDCCLXV
 
Optime valete
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86644 From: C. Maria Caeca Date: 2012-01-03
Subject: Re: Back to work
Salve Regilla Tribunae!

Welcome back, and I am very glad to hear that your father is doing well!

C. Maria Caeca

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86645 From: Bruno Zani Date: 2012-01-03
Subject: Re: Back to work
Salve collega Quiritibusque,
 
Muito obrigado pela boa nova. Que os deuses concedam a César Augusto uma recuperação rápida e completa e um regresso a casa mais cedo.
 
Many thanks for the good news. May the gods grant Caesar Augustus a quick and full recovery and an early return home.
 
Salvete
A. Liburnius Hadrianus
 

From: Denise D. <aemilia.regilla@...>
To: "Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com" <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 3, 2012 9:59 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Back to work


 
Salvete!

My father is recovering very well. I want to thank all nova-romans that expressed support and I wish that the gods return blessings in your lives and your family lives too.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86646 From: L. Lucretius Caupo Date: 2012-01-04
Subject: Re: Back to work
L. Lucretius Caupo V. Aemilia Regilla S.P.D.



Hola, Denise! Permite-me apresentar-me – chamo-me ‘Caupo’ (Bernardo) da
Provincia de California (norte; San Francisco). Nasci na Àfrica do Sul, onde
aprendi a falar português – há muitos anos -- e conheço bem o Brasil. Estive
lá muitos vezes de negócio, tanto no Rio como em São Paulo, Brasilia, Belo
Horizonte, Curitiba, Porto Alegre ... etc. – pais bonito!



Você também é Tribuna, não é verdade? Recibi um convite do Tribunus Plebis,
Volusus, para trabalhar convosco como Viator.



Ainda não conheço seu pai, mas alegro-me en saber que ele está melhor!
Desejo-lhe uma recuperacão rápida.



Prazer em conheçê-la!



Vale,



Caupo

Viator Tribunorum







From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Denise D.
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 9:59 AM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Back to work





Salvete!

My father is recovering very well. I want to thank all nova-romans that
expressed support and I wish that the gods return blessings in your lives
and your family lives too.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86647 From: l_lvcretivs_cavpo Date: 2012-01-04
Subject: Re: Back to work
Caupo omnibusque in foro S.P.D.

My apologies! -- the previous email was meant to be offline (hence no translation).

Valete,

Caupo

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Lucretius Caupo" <caupo@...> wrote:
>
> L. Lucretius Caupo V. Aemilia Regilla S.P.D.
>
>
>
> Hola, Denise! Permite-me apresentar-me – chamo-me `Caupo' (Bernardo) da
> Provincia de California (norte; San Francisco). Nasci na Àfrica do Sul, onde
> aprendi a falar português – há muitos anos -- e conheço bem o Brasil. Estive
> lá muitos vezes de negócio, tanto no Rio como em São Paulo, Brasilia, Belo
> Horizonte, Curitiba, Porto Alegre ... etc. – pais bonito!
>
>
>
> Você também é Tribuna, não é verdade? Recibi um convite do Tribunus Plebis,
> Volusus, para trabalhar convosco como Viator.
>
>
>
> Ainda não conheço seu pai, mas alegro-me en saber que ele está melhor!
> Desejo-lhe uma recuperacão rápida.
>
>
>
> Prazer em conheçê-la!
>
>
>
> Vale,
>
>
>
> Caupo
>
> Viator Tribunorum
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of Denise D.
> Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 9:59 AM
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Back to work
>
>
>
>
>
> Salvete!
>
> My father is recovering very well. I want to thank all nova-romans that
> expressed support and I wish that the gods return blessings in your lives
> and your family lives too.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86648 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-04
Subject: prid. Non. Ian.
Cato omnibus in foro SPD

Hodiernus dies est pridie Nonas Ianuarius; haec dies comitialis est.

"I am now going to relate the events that happened at the very time of
its founding; for this part of my account still remains. When Numitor,
upon the death of Amulius, had resumed his rule and had spent a little
time in restoring the city from its late disorder to its former
orderly state, he presently thought of providing an independent rule
for the youths by founding another city. At the same time, the
inhabitants being much increased in number, he thought it good policy
to get rid of some part of them, particularly of those who had once
been his enemies, lest he might have cause to suspect any of his
subjects. And having communicated this plan to the youths and gained
their approval, he gave them, as a district to rule, the region where
they had been brought up in their infancy, and, for subjects, not only
that part of the people which he suspected of a design to begin
rebellion anew, but also any who were willing to migrate voluntarily.
Among these, as is likely to happen when a city sends out a colony,
there were great numbers of the common people, but there were also a
sufficient number of the prominent men of the best class, and of the
Trojan element all those who were esteemed the noblest in birth, some
of whose posterity remained even to my day, consisting of about fifty
families. The youths were supplied with money, arms and corn, with
slaves and beasts of burden and everything else that was of use in the
building of a city. After they had led their people out of Alba and
intermingled with them the local population that still remained in
Pallantium and Saturnia, they divided the whole multitude into two
parts. This they did in the hope of arousing a spirit of emulation,
so that through their rivalry with each other their tasks might be the
sooner finished; however, it produced the greatest of evils, discord.
For each group, exalting its own leader, extolled him as the proper
person to command them all; and the youths themselves, being now no
longer one in mind or feeling it necessary to entertain brotherly
sentiments toward each, since each expected to command the other,
scorned equality and craved superiority. For some time their ambitions
were concealed, but later they burst forth on the occasion which I
shall now describe. They did not both favour the same site for the
building of the city; for Romulus proposed to settle the Palatine
hill, among other reasons, because of the good fortune of the place
where they had been preserved and brought up, whereas Remus favoured
the place that is now named after him Remoria. And indeed this place
is very suitable for a city, being a hill not far from the Tiber and
about thirty stades from Rome. From this rivalry their unsociable love
of rule immediately began to disclose itself; for on the one who now
yielded the victor would inevitably impose his will on all occasions
alike.

Meanwhile, some time having elapsed and their discord in no degree
abating, the two agreed to refer the matter to their grandfather and
for that purpose went to Alba. He advised them to leave it to the
decision of the gods which of them should give his name to the colony
and be its leader. And having appointed for them a day, he ordered
them to place themselves early in the morning at a distance from one
another, in such stations as each of them should think proper, and
after first offering to the gods the customary sacrifices, to watch
for auspicious birds; and he ordered that he to whom the more
favourable birds first appeared should rule the colony. The youths,
approving of this, went away and according to their agreement appeared
on the day appointed for the test. Romulus chose for his station the
Palatine hill, where he proposed settling the colony, and Remus the
Aventine hill adjoining it, or, according to others, Remoria; and a
guard attended them both, to prevent their reporting things otherwise
than as they appeared. When they had taken their respective stations,
Romulus, after a short pause, from eagerness and jealousy of his
brother, — though possibly Heaven was thus directing him, — even
before he saw any omen at all, sent messengers to his brother desiring
him to come immediately, as if he had been the first to see some
auspicious birds. But while the persons he sent were proceeding with
no great haste, feeling ashamed of the fraud, six vultures appeared to
Remus, flying from the right; and he, seeing the birds, rejoiced
greatly. And not long afterwards the men sent by Romulus took him
thence and brought him to the Palatine hill. When they were together,
Remus asked Romulus what birds he had been the first to see, and
Romulus knew not what to answer. But thereupon twelve auspicious
vultures were seen flying; and upon seeing these he took courage, and
pointing them out to Remus, said: "Why do you demand to know what
happened a long time ago? For surely you see these birds yourself."
But Remus was indignant and complained bitterly because he had been
deceived by him; and he refused to yield to him his right to the
colony." - Dionysius of Halicarnassus, "Roman Antiquities" 1.85-86


"You should know that the sea is separated from the earth. When
Jupiter claimed the land of Etruria for himself, he decided and
commanded the fields to be surveyed and the lands marked out. Knowing
the covetousness of man and his worldly greed, he wanted the
boundaries of everything to be marked by boundary stones. Those which
at any time anyone has placed because of the greed of this eighth -
almost the latest - saeculum, arrogating to themselves licence, men
with wrongful deceit will violate, touch and move. But if anyone
touches or moves a boundary stone, extending his own possessions or
diminishing those of someone else, for this crime he will be condemned
by the gods. If slaves shall do this, they shall be moved to a lower
status by their owner. But if this is done with the knowledge of the
master, the household will be immediately uprooted, and the whole of
his family will perish. The people responsible will be afflicted by
the worst diseases and wounds and their limbs will be weakened. Then
even the land will be shaken by storms or whirlwinds and many
landslips. The crops will be frequently laid low and cut down by rain
and hail, they will perish in the heat of the summer, they will be
killed off by blight. There will be civil strife amongst the people.
Know that these things happen, when such crimes are committed.
Therefore do not be either a deceitful or treacherous. Place restraint
in your heart. ..." - Tarquitius, Etruscan haruspex (c. 90 B.C.)

"Ortum videamus haruspicinae; sic facillume quid habeat auctoritatis
iudicabimus. Tages quidam dicitur in agro Tarquiniensi, cum terra
araretur et sulcus altius esset impressus, exstitisse repente et eum
adfatus esse qui arabat. Is autem Tages, ut in libris est Etruscorum,
puerili specie dicitur visus, sed senili fuisse prudentia. Eius
adspectu cum obstipuisset bubulcus clamoremque maiorem cum admiratione
edidisset, concursum esse factum, totamque brevi tempore in eum locum
Etruriam convenisse. Tum illum plura locutum multis audientibus, qui
omnia verba eius exceperint litterisque mandarint. Omnem autem
orationem fuisse eam qua haruspicinae disciplina contineretur; eam
postea crevisse rebus novis cognoscendis et ad eadem illa principia
referendis. Haec accepimus ab ipsis, haec scripta conservant, hunc
fontem habent disciplinae." - M. Tullius Cicero, "de Divinatione", 2.50

On this day the Etruscans celebrated in honor of the god Fufluns.
Flufuns is an Etruscan god of vegetation, vitality and gaiety, son of
the earth-goddess Semia. He shows many similarities with Dionysus and
Bacchus, the Greek and Roman gods of wine. The Etruscan religion was,
like Christianity and Judaism, a revealed religion. An account of the
revelation is given by Cicero (On Divination, 2.50). One day, says
the legend, in a field near the river Marta in Teruria, a strange
event occurred. A divine being rose up from the newly ploughed furrow,
a being with the appearance of a child, but with the wisdom of an old
man. The startled cry of the ploughman brought the lucomones, the
priest-kings of Etruria hurrying up to the spot. To them, the wise
child chanted the sacred doctrine, which they reverently listened to
and wrote down, so that this most precious possession could be passed
on to their successors. Immediately after the revelation, the
miraculous being fell dead and disappeared into the ploughed field.
His name was Tages, and he was believed to be the son of Genius and
grandson of the highest God, Tinia (or Iuppiter as he became known to
the Romans). This doctrine was known to the Romans as the "disciplina
etrusca".


Valete bene!

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86649 From: gaiusoctaviuspriscus Date: 2012-01-04
Subject: Alive and well
C. Octavius Priscus omnibusque in foro

Multae Salutationes Amici!

Some may remember me for I became a citizen of Nova Roma in 2010. Unfortunately I had to withdraw from activity later in that year as I personally developed a serious medical condition. During that time my primary focus had to be on my health and on that of my mothers who was in a nursing home after suffering a major stroke.

I'm happy to share with you that my health has greatly improved, and although my mother passed into Elysium last October, it is with great gladness that I say to you that she has been released from her earthly suffering.

As this past Saturnalia arrived, I began to think more and more of the many fine people I had met here in Nova Roma. As the new year approached, I felt Janus urging me to start anew and so here I am glad to back amongst you once more.

I'm am most grateful to those I have contacted personally in my desire to return and I am even more grateful for their efforts in making that happen; especially in the midst of a governmental transition.

I also see that I have quite a lot of catching up to do as there have been a lot of changes during my absence. I trust you will be patient with me as I once again put my feet into the water and begin again.

I thank all of those who helped me in the past and those who are helping me now. For those who I have yet to meet; I hope to find and time to meet and a time to discuss such high things as Nova Roma strives us to.

Valete!

C. Octavius Priscus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86650 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2012-01-04
Subject: EDICTVM CENSORIVM DE CREATIONE SCRIBARVM
A. Tullia Scholastica censor quiritibus S.P.D.

======

Ex hoc edicto, C. Mariam Caecam scribam seniorem, Cn. Cornelium Lentulum
Latinistam distributorem petitionum seniorem, et P. Annaeum Constantinum
Placidum scribas censorios creo. Nullum jus jurandum poscitur.

By this edictum, I appoint C. Maria Caeca senior scribe, Cn. Cornelius
Lentulus senior Latinist and distributor of applications, and P. Annaeus
Constantinus Placidus as censorial scribes. No oath is required.

Hoc edictum ilico valet.

This edict takes effect immediately.

======

Further appointments will follow.

Valete.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86651 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2012-01-04
Subject: ATTN: Governors - proroguing & budgets - urgent reminder
Cn. Iulius Caesar consul sal.
 
Regarding the requirements of the Senatus Consultum on "Regulation of Gubernatorial Prorogation" and the Senatus Consultum on "Senatus Consultum de Provincialum Pecuniarum Rationibus  -   Provincial Budgets":
 
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/senate/2001-03-11-iv.html%c2%a0
 
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/senate/2000-06-14-ii.html
 
 
An URGENT reminder:
 
1. All Nova Roman governors are required to contact the Senate to indicate if they wish to continue in their position. This must be done by the 1st February 2012. A failure to communicate will be deemed to indicate that they do not wish to continue in that position. Although it is not mandatory, I would also urge all governors to also include a summary of the state of their province, whether they wish to be prorogued or not.
 
2. Also, governors are to submit a budget for their province as soon as possible and also by the 1st February 2012, in the format required (see link above). This was due on the 1st of November 2011, however since the Senate didn't meet to decide its own provisional budget I will be asking it to waive that deadline.
 
 
Prorogation requests and budgets not already submitted, should be emailed to myself, my colleague and the Senate at the following email addresses:
 
-------- 
gn_iulius_caesar AT yahoo DOT com
 
magisterbrodd AT gmail DOT com
 
senatusromanus-owner AT yahoogroups DOT com
 
-------- 
 
Optime valete

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86652 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2012-01-04
Subject: Re: ENDORSEMENTS L. Iulia Aquila
L. Iulia Aquila Novoramanis salutem impertit

Please accept my humble apology for sending my endorsements via special notice by error.

Optime vale,

Julia
Nasburgi Scribebat
prid. Non. Ian. ‡ Cn. Caesare C. Tullio cos. ‡ MMDCCLXV
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86653 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2012-01-04
Subject: Re: NEW YEAR RITUAL FOR NOVA ROMA
L.Iulia Aquila Pontifex Cn. Lentulum Pontificem salute impertit plurima

Pulchra Rituale! Gratias tibi et felix sit annus novus!

Optime vale!

Julia
Nasburgi Scribebat
prid. Non. Ian. ‡ Cn. Caesare C. Tullio cos. ‡ MMDCCLXV
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86654 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2012-01-04
Subject: Re: Gratiarum actio.
L.Iulia Aquila Pontifex C. Petroni Dextero Pontifici Maximo Praetori salutem!

Felix sit annus novus!

Congratulations Praetor!

Optime vale!

Julia
Nasburgi Scribebat
prid. Non. Ian. ‡ Cn. Caesare C. Tullio cos. ‡ MMDCCLXV
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86655 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2012-01-04
Subject: Re: Back to work
L. Iulia Aquila V. Aemiliae Regillae Trib. S.P.D.

I am very glad that your father is healing and wish you and your family a healthy and propitious new year!

Optime vale,

Julia
Nasburgi Scribebat
prid. Non. Ian. ‡ Cn. Caesare C. Tullio cos. ‡ MMDCCLXV


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Denise D." <aemilia.regilla@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete!
>
> My father is recovering very well. I want to thank all nova-romans that expressed support and I wish that the gods return blessings in your lives and your family lives too.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86656 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2012-01-04
Subject: Re: New Year greetings
L. Iulia Aquila Quiritibus S.P.D

Felix sit annus novus! Belated yes, but I wish all my fellow citizens good health, happiness and a propitious year in 2012!

Optime vale,

Julia
Nasburgi Scribebat
prid. Non. Ian. ‡ Cn. Caesare C. Tullio cos. ‡ MMDCCLXV
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86657 From: luciaiuliaaquila Date: 2012-01-04
Subject: Congratulations to All New Magistrates!!
Iulia Iulio Consuli Tullio Consuli Galerio Censori Tulliae Censori Petroni Praetori Corneliae Praetori Porcio Quaestori Deciae Rogatori Cornelio Rogatori Tribunis Quiritibusque S.P.D

Belated congratulations to all our new Magistrates - I wish all good health, happiness and a propitious year in 2012!

Optime vale,

Julia
Nasburgi Scribebat
prid. Non. Ian. ‡ Cn. Caesare C. Tullio cos. ‡ MMDCCLXV
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86658 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2012-01-04
Subject: Lex Curiata de Imperio MMDCCLXV
C. Petronius Dexter Pontifex Maximus et lictrices et lictores salutem omnibus Quiritibus plurimam dicunt:

The auspices taken, are favorable.

Lex Curiata de imperio MMDCCLXV:

We, the lictors of the Comitia Curiata of Nova Roma, recognize and accept the
results of the elections in the Comitia Centuriata for consules and praetores.

By this lex de imperio MMDCCLXV as defined in the Lex Arminia Equitia de imperio:

---------------------------------------------
« 2. IMPERIUM
In Nova Roma, we understand Imperium as:
A. Having all the rights of potestas, as described below.

POTESTAS
A. Ius coercendi minor, the power to compel obedience in the name of the state, within the duties of the magistrate.
B. Ius edicendi, the power to issue edicts and nominate scribes.
C. Partial iurisdictio, the power to interpret the law within the duties of the magistrate holding the Potestas.
D. Ius contionis habendae, the power to hold a contio, including a question in a Comitia already called by a magistrate. The question must be included by the magistrate who called the comitia under the official authority of the magistrate holding the ius contionis habendae.

B. Ius agendi cum populo, calling the People to vote in any of their legislative Comitia.
C. Ius agendi cum senatu, calling to Senate to vote or placing a proposed senatus consultum on the Senate agenda.
D. Ius coercendi maior, the power to compel obedience using major force, on all Nova Roma subjects. In Nova Roma, this explicitly excludes physical force, and includes the force of law.
E. Full iurisdictio, the power to interpret the law, on all levels on all Nova Roma subjects. »
---------------------------------------------

we confer imperium upon these magistrates :

Cn. Iulius Caesar as consul maior,
C. Tullius Valerianus Germanicus as consul minor,
C. Petronius Dexter as praetor maior,
S. Cornelia Valeriana Iuliana Aeternia as praetor minor of Nova Roma.


Attested by the following lictrices and lictors of Nova Roma:

A. Tullia Scholastica
Helena Galeria Aureliana
C. Marcius Crispus
L. Cornelius Felix
P. Vllerius Stephanus Venator
C. Tullius Valerius Germanicus
C. Vipsanius Agrippa
C. AEmilius Crassus
C. Popillius Laenas
C. Cocceius Spinula
Cn. Iulius Caesar
Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus

Datum, nonis Ianuariis, anno MMDCCLXV ab Vrbe Condita.
( 5 janvier 2012)

QUOD BONUM FAUSTVM FELIX FORTUNATUMQVE SIT POPULO NOVO ROMANO QUIRITIBUS

C. Petronius Dexter
Pontifex Maximus Arcoiali scribebat
Nonis Ianuariis Cn. Iulio Caesare C. Tullio Valeriano coss.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86659 From: GAIUS MARCIUS CRISPUS Date: 2012-01-05
Subject: Sex token found in London
Salvete omnes

There have been a few postings about these tokens being found in various places in Europe, but this is the first one found in Britannia.

A link to the news story is here:-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/8991212/Roman-brothel-token-discovered-in-Thames.html

The token is at present being held in the Museum of London, which has an excellent Roman section.

Valete omnes
Crispus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86660 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-05
Subject: NONAE IANUARIAE
Cato omnibus in foro SPD

Hodiernus dies est Nonae Ianuariae; hic dies fastus est.

"Should the Nones be here, rain from dark clouds
Will be the sign, at the rising of the Lyre." - Ovid, Fasti I

"Thereupon greater strife arose between them than before, as each,
while secretly striving for the advantage, was ostensibly willing to
accept equality, for the following reason. Their grandfather, as I
have stated, had ordered that he to whom the more favourable birds
first appeared should rule the colony; but, as the same kind of birds
had been seen by both, one had the advantage of seeing them first and
the other that of seeing the greater number. The rest of the people
also espoused their quarrel, and arming themselves without orders from
their leaders, began war; and a sharp battle ensued in which many were
slain on both sides. In the course of this battle, as some say,
Faustulus, who had brought up the youths, wishing to put an end to the
strife of the brothers and being unable to do so, threw himself
unarmed into the midst of the combatants, seeking the speediest death,
which fell out accordingly. Some say also that the stone lion which
stood in the principal part of the Forum near the rostra was placed
over the body of Faustulus, who was buried by those who found him in
the place where he fell Remus having been slain in this action,
Romulus, who had gained a most melancholy victory through the death of
his brother and the mutual slaughter of citizens, buried Remus at
Remoria, since when alive he had clung to it as the site for the new
city. As for himself, in his grief and repentance for what had
happened, he became dejected and lost all desire for life. But when
Laurentia, who had received the babes when newly born and brought them
up and loved them no less than a mother, entreated and comforted him,
he listened to her and rose up, and gathering together the Latins who
had not been slain in the battle (they were now little more than three
thousand out of a very great multitude at first, when he led out the
colony), he built a city on the Palatine hill.

The account I have given seems to me the most probable of the stories
about the death of Remus. However, if any has been handed down that
differs from this, let that also be related. Some, indeed, say that
Remus yielded the leadership to Romulus, though not without resentment
and anger at the fraud, but that after the wall was built, wishing to
demonstrate the weakness of the fortification, he cried, 'Well, as for
this wall, one of your enemies could as easily cross it as I do,' and
immediately leaped over it. Thereupon Celer, one of the men standing
on the wall, who was overseer of the work, said, 'Well, as for this
enemy, one of us could easily punish him,' and striking him on the
head with a mattock, he killed him then and there. Such is said to
have been the outcome of the quarrel between the brothers.

Such, then, are the facts concerning the origin of the Romans which I
have been able to discover a reading very diligently many works
written by both Greek and Roman authors. Hence, from now on let the
reader forever renounce the views of those who make Rome a retreat of
barbarians, fugitive and vagabonds, and let him confidently affirm it
to be a Greek city, — which will be easy when he shows that it is at
once the most hospitable and friendly of all cities, and when he bears
in mind that the Aborigines were Oenotrians, and these in turn
Arcadians, and remembers those who joined with them in their
settlement, the Pelasgians who were Argives by descent and came into
Italy from Thessaly; and recalls, moreover, the arrival of Evander and
the Arcadians, who settled round the Palatine hill, after the
Aborigines had granted the place to them; and also the Peloponnesians,
who, coming along with Hercules, settled upon the Saturnian hill; and,
last of all, those who left the Troad and were intermixed with the
earlier settlers." - Dionysius of Halicarnassus, "Roman Antiquitius"
1.87-88


"Plouton [Hades] fell in love with Persephone, and with Zeus' help
secretly kidnapped her. Demeter roamed the earth over in search of
her, by day and by night with torches. When she learned from the
Hermionians that Plouton had kidnapped her, enraged at the gods she
left the sky, and in the likeness of a woman made her way to Eleusis
...When Zeus commanded Plouton to send Kore [Persephone] back up,
Plouto gave her a pomegranate seed to eat, as assurance that she would
not remain long with her mother. With no foreknowledge of the outcome
of her act, she consumed it. Askalaphos, the son of Akheron and
Gorgyra, bore witness against her, in punishment for which Demeter
pinned him down with a heavy rock in Haides' realm. But Persephone was
obliged to spend a third of each year with Plouton, and the remainder
of the year among the gods." - Apollodorus, The Library 1.29

"He [Hades] with Demeter's girl [Persephone] captive, through grassy
plains, drawn in a four-yoked car with loosened reins, rapt over the
deep, impelled by love, you flew till Eleusinia's city rose to view:
there, in a wondrous cave obscure and deep, the sacred maid secure
from search you keep, the cave of Atthis, whose wide gates display an
entrance to the kingdoms void of day." - Orphic Hymn 18 to Pluton

"Pluto asked from Iove that he give him in marriage Ceres' daughter
and his own. Iove said that Ceres would not permit her daughter to
live in gloomy Tartarus, but bade him seize her as she was gathering
flowers on Mount Etna, which is in Sicily. While Proserpina
[Persephone] was gathering flowers with Venus, Diana, and Minerva,
Pluto came in his four-horse chariot, and seized her. Afterwards Ceres
obtained from Iove permission for her to stay half of the year with
her, and half with Pluto." - Hyginus, Fabulae 146

In ancient Greece today was held in honor of the goddess Kore, known
to the Romans as Persephone or Proserpina. One day Kore was gathering
flowers in the flelds of Nysa with her companions when she suddenly
noticed a narcissus of striking beauty. She tan to pick it, but as she
bent down to do so the earth gaped open and Hades appeared. He seized
her and dragged her with him down into the depths of the earth.
According to another tradition, the abduction of Kore took place on
the heights near the town of Enna in Sicily. And in the neighbourhood
of Syracuse they showed the place where Hades plunged back into the
earth, hollowing out a vast cavity in the process, since filled by
waters from the spring of Cyane. Colonus in Attica, Hermione in
Argolis, Pheneus in Arcadia and even Crete, likewise claimed for their
territory the honour of this divine abduction.

Demeter meanwhile had heard her child's despairing cry for help.
'Then,' says the poet of the Homeric hymn, 'bitter sorrow seized her
heart...Over her shoulders she threw a sombre veil and flew like a
bird over land and sea, seeking here, seekíng there...' For nine days
the venerable goddess ranged the world, bearing flaming torches in her
hands. At last on Hecate's advice, she went to consult the divine
Helios who revealed to her the name of her daughter's ravísher. 'No
other god is guilty,' he said to her, 'but Zeus himself, who awarded
thy daughter to his brother Hades so that he might call her his
flowering bride.' This revelation overwhelmed Demeter. In rage and
despair she withdrew from Olympus and in the guise of an old woman
sought refuge among the cities of men.

Still inconsolable at the loss of her daughter, Demeter retired to her
temple at Eleusis. There 'she prepared for mankind a cruel and
terrible year: the earth refused to give forth any crop. Then would
the entire human race have perished of cruel, biting hunger if Zeus
had not bcen concerned.' He hastened to send his messenger Iris to
Demeter, but without success. Then all the gods carne one by one to
supplicate the implacable goddess. She stated fiatly that she would
not permit the earth to bear fruit unless she saw her daughter again.
There was no solution except to give in. Zeus commanded Hermes to
descend into the kingdom of Hades and obtain Hades' promise to return
young Kore - who since her arrival in the underworld had taken the
name Persephone - to her mother. Hades complied with the will of Zeus,
but before sending his wife up to earth tempted her to eat a few
pomegranate seeds. Now this fruit was a symbol of marriage and the
effect of eating it was to tender the union of man and wife indissoluble.

When Kore returned to the world of light her mother hastened to her
and embraced her with transports of joy. 'My daughter,' she cried,
'surely thou hast eaten nothing during your imprisonment in the dark
regions of Hades! For if thou hast not eaten thou shalt live with me
on Olympus. But if thou hast, then must thou return to the depths of
the earth!' Kore admitted that she had tasted of the fatal
pomegranate. lt seemed that Demeter was again to lose her daughter.

As a compromise Zeus decided that Persephone should live with her
husband for one-third of the year and pass the other two-thirds with
her mother. The august Rhea herself brought this proposal to Demeter
who agreed to it. She set aside her anger and bade the soil again be
fertile. The vast earth was soon covered with leaves and flowers.
Before she returned to Olympus, Demeter taught the kings of the earth
her divine science and initiated them into her sacred mysteries.


Valete bene!

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86661 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-06
Subject: a.d. VIII Id. Ian.
Cato omnibus in foro SPD

Hodiernus dies est ante diem VIII Idus Ianuarius; hic dies fastus aterque est.

"When, therefore, the ditch was finished, the rampart completed and
the necessary work on the houses done, and the situation required that
they should consider also what form of government they were going to
have, Romulus called an assembly of the people by the advice of his
grandfather, who had instructed him what to say, and told them that
the city [Rome], considering that it was newly built, was sufficiently
adorned both with public and private buildings; but he asked them all
to bear in mind that these were not the most valuable things in
cities. For neither in foreign wars, he said, are deep ditches and
high ramparts sufficient to give the inhabitants an undisturbed
assurance of their safety, but guarantee one thing only, namely, that
they shall suffer no harm through being surprised by an incursion of
the enemy; nor, again, when civil commotions afflict the State, do
private houses and dwellings afford anyone a safe retreat. For these
have been contrived by men for the enjoyment of leisure and
tranquillity in their lives, and with them neither those of their
neighbours who plot against them are prevented from doing mischief nor
do those who are plotted against feel any confidence that they are
free from danger; and no city that has gained splendour from these
adornments only has ever yet become prosperous and great for a long
period, nor, again, has any city from a want of magnificence either in
public or in private buildings ever been hindered from becoming great
and prosperous. But it is other things that preserve cities and make
them great from small beginnings: in foreign wars, strength in arms,
which is acquired by courage and exercise; and in civil commotions,
unanimity among the citizens, and this, he showed, could be most
effectually achieved for the commonwealth by the prudent and just life
of each citizen. Those who practise warlike exercises and at the same
time are masters of their passions are the greatest ornaments to their
country, and these are the men who provide both the commonwealth with
impregnable walls and themselves in their private lives with safe
refuges; but men of bravery, justice and the other virtues are the
result of the form of government when this has been established
wisely, and, on the other hand, men who are cowardly, rapacious and
the slaves of base passions are the product of evil institutions. He
added that he was informed by men who were older and had wide
acquaintance with history that of many large colonies planted in
fruitful regions some had been immediately destroyed by falling into
seditions, and others, after holding out for a short time, had been
forced to become subject to their neighbours and to exchange their
more fruitful country for a worse fortune, becoming slaves instead of
free men; while others, few in numbers and settling in places that
were by no means desirable, had continued, in the first place, to be
free themselves, and, in the second place, to command others; and
neither the successes of the smaller colonies nor the misfortunes of
those that were large were due to any other cause than their form of
government. If, therefore, there had been but one mode of life among
all mankind which made cities prosperous, the choosing of it would not
have been difficult for them; but, as it was, he understood there were
many types of government among both the Greeks and barbarians, and out
of all of them he heard three especially commended by those who had
lived under them, and of these systems none was perfect, but each had
some fatal defects inherent in it, so that the choice among them was
difficult. He therefore asked them to deliberate at leisure and say
whether they would be governed by one man or by a few, or whether they
would establish laws and entrust the protection of the public
interests to the whole body of the people. 'And whichever form of
government you establish,' he said, 'I am ready to comply with your
desire, for I neither consider myself unworthy to command nor refuse
to obey. So far as honours are concerned, I am satisfied with those
you have conferred on me, first, by appointing me leader of the
colony, and, again, by giving my name to the city. For of these
neither a foreign war nor civil dissension nor time, that destroyer of
all that is excellent, nor any other stroke of hostile fortune can
deprive me; but both in life and in death these honours will be mien
to enjoy for all time to come.'" - Dionysius of Halicarnassus, "Roman
Antiquities" 2.3


"They stay up the whole night singing songs and playing the flute,
offering these to the images of the gods; and, when the revelries of
the night are over, after cock-crow, they go down with torches into a
subterranean sanctuary and bring p a carved wooden image, which is
laid naked on a litter. on its forehead it has the sign of the cross,
in gold, and on both its hands two other signs of the same shape, and
two more on its knees; and the five signs are all fashioned in gold.
They carry this carved image seven times around the middle of the
temple precincts, to the sound of flutes and tambourines and hymns,
and after the procession they carry it down again into the crypt. But
if you ask them what this mysterious performance cans they answer:
Today, at this hour, the Kore, that is to say the virgin, has given
birth to the Aeon." - St. Epiphanius of Salamis (A.D. 310-402)

"Mistletoe is, however, seldom found on a hard-oak, and when it is
discovered it is gathered with great ceremony, and particularly on the
6th day of the moon (which for those tribes [Druids] constitutes the
beginning of the months and the years) and after every thirty years of
a generation, because it is then rising in strength and not one half
its full size." - Pliny the Elder, Natural History, XVI.xcv.250

"The last of the mystic twelve days is Epiphany or Twelfth Night, and
it has been selected as a proper season for the expulsion of the
powers of evil in various parts of Europe." - Sir James Frazer, "The
Golden Bough"

Today is the celebration of the Epiphany. Epiphany was traditionally
a Christian feast to celebrate the "shining forth" or revelation of
God to humanity in human form, in the person of Jesus Christ. The feast was initially based on, and viewed as a fulfillment of, the
Jewish Feast of Lights. This was fixed on 6th January, but over time
the Western churches decided to celebrate Christmas on December 25, to
replace the older celebrations of the Brumalia and Saturnalia. The
Eastern churches, refusing to accept the Gregorian Calendar,
continued to treat 6th January as the day marking Jesus's birth. This
has given rise in the west to the notion of a twelve day festival,
starting on 25th December. Today in Eastern Orthodox churches, it is called the Feast of the Theophany, and is one of the great feasts of the liturgical year; "theophany" is Greek for "God shining forth".


Valete bene!

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86662 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-06
Subject: Pompeii - a Very Messy Place even before the eruption...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86663 From: Timothy or Stephen Gallagher Date: 2012-01-06
Subject: Scriba/scribae
Salvete Romans, Just a reminder to all new magistrates that under the terms of the lex Vedia de assiduis and capite censis. "C. No Capite census may run for or hold office as one of the ordinarii (including the apparitores), " In other words, everybody holding office including scriba/scribae must be taxpayers.


http://novaroma.org/nr/Lex_Vedia_de_assiduis_et_capite_censis_(Nova_Roma)





Valete Ti. Galerius PaulinusCensor

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86664 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-07
Subject: a.d. VII Non. Ian.
Cato omnibus in foro SPD

Hodiernus dies est ante diem VII Idus Ianuarius; haec dies comitialis est.


"Such was the speech that Romulus, following the instructions of his
grandfather, as I have said, made to the people. And they, having
consulted together by themselves, returned this answer: 'We have no
need of a new form of government and we are not going to change the
one which our ancestors approved of as the best and handed down to us.
In this we show both a deference for the judgment of our elders, whose
superior wisdom we recognize in establishing it, and our own
satisfaction with our present condition. For we could not reasonably
complain of this form of government, which has afforded us under our
kings the greatest of human blessings — liberty and the rule over
others. Concerning the form of government, then, this is our
decision; and to of this honour we conceive none has so good a title
as you yourself by reason both of your royal birth and of your merit,
but above all because we have had you as the leader of our colony and
recognize in you great ability and great wisdom, which we have seen
displayed quite as much in your actions as in your words.' Romulus,
hearing this, said it was a great satisfaction to him to be judged
worthy of the kingly office by his fellow men, but that he would not
accept the honour until Heaven, too, had given its sanction by
favourable omens.

And when the people approved, he appointed a day on which he proposed
to consult the auspices concerning the sovereignty; and when the time
was come, he rose at break of day and went forth from his tent. Then,
taking his stand under the open sky in a clear space and first
offering the customary sacrifice, he prayed to King Jupiter and to the
other gods whom he had chosen for the patrons of the colony, that, if
it was their pleasure he should be king of the city, some favourable
signs might appear in the sky. After this prayer a flash of lightning
darted across the sky from the left to the right. Now the Romans look
upon the lightning that passes from the left to the right as a
favourable omen, having been thus instructed either by the Tyrrhenians
or by their own ancestors. Their reason is, in my opinion, that the
best seat and station for those who take the auspices is that which
looks toward the east, from whence both the sun and the moon rise as
well as the planets and fixed stars; and the revolution of the
firmament, by which all things contained in it are sometimes above the
earth and sometimes beneath it, begins its circular motion thence.
Now to those who look toward the east the parts facing toward the
north are on the left and those extending toward the south are on the
right, and the former are by nature more honourable than the latter.
For in the northern parts the pole of the axis upon which the
firmament turns is elevated, and of the five zones which girdle the
sphere the one called the arctic zone is always visible on this side;
whereas in the southern parts the other zone, called the antarctic, is
depressed and invisible on that side. So it is reasonable to assume
that those signs in the heavens and in mid-air are the best which
appear on the best side; and since the parts that are turned toward
the east have preüeminence over the western parts, and, of the eastern
parts themselves, the northern are higher than the southern, the
former would seem to be the best. But some relate that the ancestors
of the Romans from very early times, even before they had learned it
from the Tyrrhenians, looked upon the lightning that came from the
left as a favourable omen. For they say that when Ascanius, the son of
Aeneas, was warred upon and besieged by the Tyrrhenians led by their
king Mezentius, and was upon the point of making a final sally out of
the town, his situation being now desperate, he prayed with
lamentations to Jupiter and to the rest of the gods to encourage this
sally with favourable omens, and thereupon out of a clear sky there
appeared a flash of lightning coming from the left; and as this battle
had the happiest outcome, this sign continued to be regarded as
favourable by his posterity." - Dionysius of Halicarnasus, "Roman
Antiquities" 2.4-5


"The officer who brought them home to Pompey spread amongst the people
no very fair or favourable report of Caesar, and flattered Pompey
himself with false suggestions that he was wished for by Caesar's
army; and though his affairs here were in some embarrassment through
the envy of some, and the ill state of the government, yet there the
army was at his command, and if they once crossed into Italy would
presently declare for him; so weary were they of Caesar's endless
expeditions, and so suspicious of his designs for a monarchy. Upon
this Pompey grew presumptuous, and neglected all warlike preparations
as fearing no danger, and used no other means against him than mere
speeches and votes, for which Caesar cared nothing. And one of his
captains, it is said, who was sent by him to Rome, standing before the
senate-house one day, and being told that the senate would not give
Caesar longer time in his government, clapped his hand on the hilt of
his sword and said, 'But this shall.'

Yet the demands which Caesar made had the fairest colours of equity
imaginable. For he proposed to lay down his arms, and that Pompey
should do the same, and both together should become private men, and
each expect a reward of his services from the public. For that those
who proposed to disarm him, and at the same time to confirm Pompey in
all the power he held, were simply establishing the one in the tyranny
which they accused the other of aiming at. When Curio made these
proposals to the people in Caesar's name, he was loudly applauded, and
some threw garlands towards him, and dismissed him as they do
successful wrestlers, crowned with flowers. Antony, being tribune,
produced a letter sent from Caesar on this occasion, and read it
though the consuls did what they could to oppose it. But Scipio,
Pompey's father-in-law, proposed in the senate, that if Caesar did not
lay down his arms within such a time he should be voted an enemy; and
the consuls putting it to the question, whether Pompey should dismiss
his soldiers, and again, whether Caesar should disband his, very few
assented to the first, but almost all to the latter. But Antony
proposing again, that both should lay down their commissions, all but
a very few agreed to it. Scipio was upon this very violent, and
Lentulus, the consul, cried aloud, that they had need of arms, and not
of suffrages, against a robber; so that the senators for the present
adjourned, and appeared in mourning as a mark of their grief for the
dissension." - Plutarch, Lives, "Caesar"

On this day in 49 B.C., Gaius Iulius Caesar was ordered by the Senate
of Rome to disband his troops. Born with unbridled political ambition
and unsurpassed oratory skills, Julius Caesar manipulated his way to
the position of consul of Rome in 59 BC. After his year of service he
was named governor of Gaul where he amassed a personal fortune and
exhibited his outstanding military skill in subduing the native Celtic
and Germanic tribes. Caesar's popularity with the people soared,
presenting a threat to the power of the Senate and to Pompey, who held
power in Rome. Accordingly, the Senate called upon Caesar to resign
his command and disband his army or risk being declared an "Enemy of
the State". Pompey was entrusted with enforcing this edict - the
foundation for civil war was laid.

It was January 49 B.C., Caesar was staying in the northern Italian
city of Ravenna and he had a decision to make. Either he acquiesced to
the Senate's command or he moved southward to confront Pompey and
plunge the Roman Republic into a bloody civil war. An ancient Roman
law forbade any general from crossing the Rubicon River and entering
Italy proper with a standing army. To do so was treason. This tiny
stream would reveal Caesar's intentions and mark the point of no return.


Valete bene!

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86665 From: Gaius Petronius Dexter Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE ROM
C. Petronius Dexter praetor Novis Romanis Quiritibus salutem plurimam dicit:

----------------------
Ex Officio Praetoris Novae Romae:

PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01:
MODERATION EDICT FOR THE FORUM NOVAE ROMAE (AKA MAIN LIST OR ML)

We, Gaius Petronius Dexter and Statia Cornelia Valeriana Iuliana Aeternia, praetores of Nova Roma for the year MMDCCLXV, in the hope of promoting a more free and lively, yet well-ordered, setting for the gathering and interaction of those who are citizens, including probationary citizens, of Nova Roma within our principal forum, Forum Novae Romae (also known as The Main List or The ML), http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma, promulgate the following edict for civil conduct within the Forum Novae Romae:

1. Citizens are reminded that the ML is a moderated list, and all posts sent to the ML must conform with the requirements and restrictions of the Yahoo Terms of Service (ToS) (available in summary form here: http://groups.yahoo.com/local/guidelines.html).

2. Citizens are reminded that the ML is not classified as an adult group and should govern their choice of language accordingly to comply with the restrictions imposed by the Yahoo ToS. Additionally citizens should be aware that posts that may be considered defamatory, libelous or otherwise injurious could give rise to a cause of action either within Nova Roma under any current relevant leges, or macronationally in courts of competent jurisdiction and should therefore govern themselves accordingly.

3. Prohibited, disruptive or offensive conduct/language, or a combination thereof, as defined by either Yahoo ToS and/or the Praetors, will be dealt with by warnings and/or imposed moderation. The Praetors are not bound by precedent in deciding these matters, which will be dealt with on a case-by-case basis.

4. Serious consideration will be taken of any apology or explanation in defense of a behavior for which a penalty may be or has been considered by the Praetura with the understanding that, ultimately, the decision of the Praetores, subject to all legal forms of redress and veto within the Res Publica, will be considered final.

5. All posts will be expected to be signed by the poster's Roman name. Latin openings and closings will be welcome but not mandatory. More information about the use of Latin in email is given here: http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Latin_for_e-mail

6. Except for the openings and closings, all Latin text posted on the ML must be accompanied by an English translation so that those less familiar with Latin will be able to understand it.

This edict shall take effect immediately.

DATVM A. D. VI IDVS IANVARIAS MMDCCLXV A.V.C.
CN. IVLIO CAESARE C. TVLLIO VALERIANO CONSVLIBVS
[8 January 2012]


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86666 From: Timothy or Stephen Gallagher Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: FW: [Explorator] explorator 14.38
fyi
To: explorator@yahoogroups.com; BRITARCH@...
From: rogueclassicist@...
Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 08:45:32 -0500
Subject: [Explorator] explorator 14.38




























================================================================

explorator 14.38 January 8, 2012

================================================================

Editor's note: Most urls should be active for at least eight

hours from the time of publication.



For your computer's protection, Explorator is sent in plain text

and NEVER has attachments. Be suspicious of any Explorator which

arrives otherwise!!!



================================================================

================================================================

Thanks to Arthur Shippee, Dave Sowdon, David Critchley,

Diana Wright,Edward Rockstein, Rick Heli, Hernan Astudillo,

Kurt Theis,John McMahon, Barnea Selavan,Joseph Lauer,

Mike Ruggeri, Richard Campbell,Richard C. Griffiths,

Bob Heuman, Rochelle Altman,and Ross W. Sargent for headses

upses this week (as always hoping I have left no one out).

================================================================

EARLY HUMANS

================================================================

A new German-Israeli center devoted to researching archaeology and

anthropology/early humans:



http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceinsider/2012/01/new-german-israeli-center-will.html

================================================================

ANCIENT NEAR EAST AND EGYPT

================================================================

As hinted at las week, that 'ancient seal' is starting a bit of a discussion

as to its purpose:



http://popular-archaeology.com/issue/december-2011/article/hebrew-university-professor-disputes-claims-about-purpose-of-newly-discovered-jerusalem-temple-artifact

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/scholars-offer-new-explanation-for-rare-temple-artifact-in-jerusalem-1.405361



Feature on Egyptian animal mummies:



http://news.discovery.com/history/mummified-animals-egypt-120106.html



A bronze age burial from Aleppo:



http://www.sana.sy/eng/35/2011/12/27/390924.htm



Recent finds via the Temple Mount Sifting Project:



http://templemount.wordpress.com/2011/12/28/finds-from-the-first-and-second-temple-period-city-dumps-at-the-eastern-slopes-of-the-temple-mount/



Overview of the past month of archaeology in Israel:



http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/rep368006.shtml



Feature on the Tel Dan excavations:



http://popular-archaeology.com/issue/december-2011/article/archaeologists-excavate-legendary-city-of-dan



Plenty of digging is about to commence in Sharjah:



http://www.khaleejtimes.com/displayarticle.asp?xfile=data/theuae/2012/January/theuae_January22.xml§ion=theuae&col=



Looking at those on the 'bottom' of Babylonian society:



http://www.physorg.com/news/2012-01-slaves-babylonians.html



A review of 2011 in Egyptian antiquities developments (or lack thereof):



http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2011/1078/heritage.htm



Interesting item on hairstyles in ancient Judaea:



http://www.slate.com/articles/life/explainer/2011/12/was_jesus_christ_s_hairstyle_normal_for_his_time_.html



Archaeological sites are threatened by the Red-Dead Water Conveyance

Project:



http://www.menafn.com/qn_news_story_s.asp?StoryId=1093469005&src=RSS



Tourism is down in Petra:



http://www.menafn.com/qn_news_story_s.asp?StoryId=1093470540&src=RSS



More on that 'love pipe' from Jerusalem:



http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4169262,00.html

http://www.artdaily.org/index.asp?int_sec=2&int_new=52784



More on that Afghan collection of Hebrew documents:



http://www.jpost.com/JewishWorld/JewishNews/Article.aspx?id=251913



Egyptology News Blog:



http://egyptology.blogspot.com/



Egyptology Blog:



http://www.egyptologyblog.co.uk/



Dr Leen Ritmeyer's Blog:



http://blog.ritmeyer.com/



Paleojudaica:



http://paleojudaica.blogspot.com/



Persepolis Fortification Archives:



http://persepolistablets.blogspot.com/

================================================================

ANCIENT GREECE AND ROME (AND CLASSICS)

================================================================

Lots of excitement (and hype) about a spintria token found by the Thames:



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/8991212/Roman-brothel-token-discovered-in-Thames.html

http://www.iol.co.za/scitech/science/discovery/bawdy-token-used-to-pay-for-pleasure-1.1207552

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/293790/The-Roman-Empire-of-sex

http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/jonathanjonesblog/2012/jan/04/porn-roman-brothel-tokens-erotic-art

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2083295/Explicit-coin-Thames-X-rated-story-Roman-sex-slaves-Britain.html



... Mary Beard brings some balance to the hype:



http://timesonline.typepad.com/dons_life/2012/01/a-roman-brothel-token.html



Haven't seen English coverage yet of this find of 37 Etruscan tombs near

Viterbo:



http://www.ilmessaggero.it/articolo.php?id=175652



Interesting (maybe ... the photo doesn't match the story) relief from

Stratonikeia:



http://www.todayszaman.com/news-267387-2000-year-old-relief-bust-found-in-stratonikeia.html



Allison Emmerson's talk at the AIA/APA shindig about Pompeii's trashy tombs

got some press coverage:



http://www.livescience.com/17747-pompeii-trashy-tombs-mystery.html

http://www.physorg.com/news/2012-01-ancient-pompeii-trash-tombs.html

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/01/120104115049.htm

http://news.yahoo.com/mystery-pompeiis-trashy-tombs-explained-130608439.html

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2012-01/uoc-iap010412.php



A couple of responses to Mary Beard's comments on the state of classics

last week:



http://www.algemeiner.com/2012/01/06/greek-wisdom-in-the-21st-century/

http://www.thejewishweek.com/blogs/well_versed/athens_and_jerusalem_case_knowing_classics



'Rumblings' over plans to restore the the Colosseum:



http://edition.cnn.com/2012/01/06/world/europe/rome-colosseum-restoration-plan-protests/

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/30147879/detail.html

cf:

http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/28/colosseum-may-be-a-fixer-upper-but-its-not-collapsing-italian-officials-say/?ref=design



... while a Russian billionaire offered to buy the Temple of Zeus in

Agrigento:



http://www.ansa.it/web/notizie/rubriche/english/2012/01/05/visualizza_new.html_40598954.html

http://www.upi.com/Odd_News/2012/01/05/Town-resists-billionaires-Zeus-temple-bid/UPI-45331325813873/



... and UNESCO is getting involved with Pompeii:



http://www.theartnewspaper.com/articles/Italy-allows-Unesco-into-Pompeii/25422



UNESCO is also stepping in at some Roman sites in Tunisia:



http://allafrica.com/stories/201201061054.html



Response (from the nuns) about plans to sell Blundell Hall antiquities:



http://www.crosbyherald.co.uk/news/crosby-news/2012/01/04/augustinian-nuns-react-angrily-to-claims-ince-blundell-hall-could-lose-its-marbles-92534-30060498/



... in case you missed the story last week:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-16393476



Relive the torments of Sisyphus, Tantalus, et al in 8 bit game form:



http://www.pippinbarr.com/games/letsplayancientgreekpunishment/LetsPlayAncientGreekPunishment.html

http://greece.greekreporter.com/2012/01/05/video-game-based-on-ancient-greek-torments/



On Gozo as Calypso's island:



http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20120108/life-features/Malta-s-encounter-with-Homer-s-greatest-hero.401536



Interesting idea for a floating antiquities museum (haven't we heard this

before?):



http://www.emg.rs/en/news/region/172131.html



Studying Greek pottery for space program purposes:



http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-03-deciphering-elements-iconic-pottery.html

http://news.discovery.com/space/slac-analysis-of-attic-pottery-could-improve-space-shuttle-tiles-111230.html

http://usa.greekreporter.com/2012/01/04/study-of-ancient-greek-pottery-can-help-improve-modern-spacecraft/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2081306/Scientists-study-ancient-Greek-pottery-improve-spacecraft-tiles.html



Review of Robert Knapp, *Invisible Romans*:



http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/political-bookworm/post/the-99-percent-in-ancient-rome--and-america/2011/12/13/gIQAxauWYP_blog.html



Review of the Loeb Boethius and Procopius:



http://www.salon.com/2012/01/07/when_did_rome_really_fall/



Reviewish/Interviewish of Mitchell's Iliad translation:



http://onpoint.wbur.org/2012/01/02/homers-iliad-retold



More on that 'green grocer curse' tablet:



http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/03/science/reaching-back-2000-years-to-unravel-a-curse.html

http://mynorthwest.com/11/601769/UW-professor-translates-ancient-curse



Latest reviews from Scholia:



http://www.classics.ukzn.ac.za/reviews/



Latest reviews from BMCR:



http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/recent.html



Visit our blog:



http://rogueclassicism.com/

================================================================

EUROPE AND THE UK (+ Ireland)

================================================================

A review of the 'big finds' from Bulgaria this past year:



http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=135489



Evidence of medieval life in Lyndhurst:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-16442870



Feature about the Locating London's Past website:



http://www.historytoday.com/blog/2012/01/locating-londons-past-mapping-capital



Feature on the Knights Templar:



http://www.historytoday.com/helen-nicholson/saints-or-sinners-knights-templar-medieval-europe



Archaeology in Europe Blog:



http://archaeology-in-europe.blogspot.com/



================================================================

ASIA AND THE SOUTH PACIFIC

================================================================

Again we hear that Angkor Wat was a victim of drought (not sure

why this is labelled 'new'):



http://www.physorg.com/news/2012-01-explanation-sudden-demise-khmer-empire.html

http://www.csmonitor.com/Science/2012/0103/Ancient-City-of-Angkor-may-have-been-ruined-by-drought

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2012/01/04/drought-led-to-demise-ancient-city-angkor/

http://news.yahoo.com/drought-led-demise-ancient-city-angkor-142407479.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/03/science/angkor-seat-of-the-khmer-empire-wilted-when-water-ran-low.html



Shang and Zhou dynasty burials from China's Zhejiang province:



http://english.people.com.cn/202936/7698412.html



Interesting bronze drum find from Viet Nam:



http://vietnamnews.vnagency.com.vn/Life-Style/219351/ancient-bronze-drum-found-excavated-by-local-farmer.html



More on tomb raiders in China:



http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jan/01/china-tomb-raiders-destroy-relics

East Asian Archaeology:



http://eastasiablog.wordpress.com/2010/05/20/east-asian-archaeology-cultural-heritage-%E2%80%93-2052010/



Southeast Asian Archaeology Newsblog:



http://www.southeastasianarchaeology.com/



New Zealand Archaeology eNews:



http://www.nzarchaeology.org/netsubnews.htm

================================================================

NORTH AMERICA

================================================================

More on wood from Lake Huron:



http://www.vancouversun.com/technology/Divers+find+clue+ancient+civilization/5961711/story.html



Not sure if this is the same bronze artifact from Alaska which we mentioned

a few weeks

ago or not:



http://www.physorg.com/news/2012-01-unearth-ancient-bronze-artifact-alaska.html



That 'Maya in Georgia' claim mentioned last week is taking a strange turn

(I still don't

buy it):



http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/mayan-ruins-georgia-archeologist-objects-web-story-viral/story?id=15291662#.TwmQJno8euI

cf:

http://www.mountainx.com/article/38687/Mayan-ruins-in-Georgia-An-unorthodox-theory-generates-Internet-buzz



The 'lost city' of Cahokia has apparently been found during bridge

construction in St Louis:



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2082113/The-lost-city-Cahokia-Archaeologists-uncover-Native-Americans-sprawling-metropolis.html?ITO=1490

================================================================

CENTRAL AND SOUTH AMERICA

================================================================

Some petroglyphs dating back 8000+ years b.p. have been found in Peru:



http://www.andina.com.pe/Ingles/Noticia.aspx?id=0wSJs39TTKo=



Mike Ruggeri's Ancient Americas Breaking News:



http://web.mac.com/michaelruggeri



Ancient MesoAmerica News:



http://ancient-mesoamerica-news-updates.blogspot.com/

================================================================

OTHER ITEMS OF INTEREST

================================================================

DNA suggests brucellosis has been around for a while:



http://news.discovery.com/history/bones-modern-disease-ancient-skeletons-120104.html

http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/1112448672/scientists-crack-medieval-bone-code/

http://www.dawn.com/2012/01/04/modern-disease-found-in-ancient-bones-2.html

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/modern-disease-found-ancient-bones-195035352.html

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/01/120103135448.htm

http://www.physorg.com/news/2012-01-scientists-medieval-bone-code.html

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2012-01/msu-scm010312.php



Lord Byron as first 'celebrity diet guy':



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16351761



Interesting feature on Jeanne Baret:



http://www.physorg.com/news/2012-01-jeanne-baret-botanist-female-circumnavigator.html



Distinguishing between old and new violins isn't easy:



http://www.physorg.com/news/2012-01-professional-musicians-master-violins.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/03/science/in-play-off-between-old-and-new-violins-stradivarius-lags.html



Interesting genome-adapations for early African-'Americans':



http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/03/science/genome-research-points-to-adaptation-among-early-african-americans.html



On the history of snow globes:



http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/01/magazine/the-self-contained-snowstorm.html



Marking Joan of Arc's 'birthday':



http://news.discovery.com/history/joan-of-arc-birthday-010612.html



Back to Columbis finding syphilis in the New World:



http://news.discovery.com/history/columbus-syphilis-010512.html



The NEJM is celebrating its 200th anniversary:



http://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-01-england-journal-years-medical-history.html




Not sure where to put this item on human rights and archaeology at Catal

Huyuk:



http://www.physorg.com/news/2012-01-stanford-archaeologist-role-human-rights.html



High tech dating of artworks:



http://www.physicstoday.org/resource/1/phtoad/v65/i1/p58_s1?bypassSSO=1

http://scitation.aip.org/getpdf/servlet/GetPDFServlet?filetype=pdf&id=PHTOAD000065000001000058000001&idtype=cvips&doi=10.1063/PT.3.1408&prog=normal&bypassSSO=1



Next installment of that John Milton series from the Guardian:



http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2012/jan/02/john-milton-devil-paradise-lost



http://www.ancientdigger.com/================================================================

BLOGS

================================================================

About.com Archaeology:



http://archaeology.about.com/



Archaeology Briefs:



http://archaeologybriefs.blogspot.com/



Taygete Atlantis excavations blogs aggregator:



http://planet.atlantides.org/taygete/



Time Machine:



http://heatherpringle.wordpress.com/



================================================================

GENERAL MAGAZINES AND JOURNALS

================================================================

Latest Biblical Archaeology Review (the 'dig' issue):



http://www.bib-arch.org/bar/



================================================================

CRIME BEAT

================================================================

Some Turkish smugglers were caught with a statue in their car:



http://eu.greekreporter.com/2012/01/05/turkish-police-arrest-two-men-with-aphrodite-statue-in-their-car/

http://www.todayszaman.com/news-267698-police-find-aphrodite-statue-that-was-missing-for-years.html

http://www.todayszaman.com/news-267698-missing-aphrodite-statue-found-in-kirsehir.html



"Vandals" have irreparably damaged a Roman mosaic in Burgos:



http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_33201.shtml

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2081175/Thieves-chisel-Roman-mosaic--Exceptional-Spanish-archaeological-site-thought-targeted-order.html



Looting Matters:



http://lootingmatters.blogspot.com/



Illicit Cultural Property:



http://illicit-cultural-property.blogspot.com/



Safe Corner:



http://safecorner.savingantiquities.org/

================================================================

NUMISMATICA

================================================================

The Prospero Collection of Greek coins came to auction and brought

in some big bucks:



http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/652cf2a2-3863-11e1-9f07-00144feabdc0.html

http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/03/world/europe/prospero-collection-ancient-greek-coins/index.html(pre

auction hype)



Some ancient Judean coins ar coming to auction:



http://www.kusi.com/story/16454510/ancient-judean-coins-going-to-nyc-auction



Latest eSylum:



http://www.coinbooks.org/club_nbs_esylum_v15n01.html



... and the one which should appear later today:



http://www.coinbooks.org/club_nbs_esylum_v15n02.html



Ancient Coin Collecting:



http://ancientcoincollecting.blogspot.com/



Ancient Coins:



http://classicalcoins.blogspot.com/



Coin Week:



http://www.coinweek.com/================================================================

EXHIBITIONS, AUCTIONS, AND MUSEUM-RELATED

================================================================

Modern Antiquity:



http://www.vcstar.com/news/2012/jan/06/how-picasso-and-other-modern-masters-were-by/



Working in Archaeology:



http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/9458819.Exhibition_shows_archaeologists_at_work/



The Horse:



http://www.guardian.co.uk/culture/2012/jan/02/british-museum-equine-history-horses



Lux in Arcana:



http://www.artdaily.org/index.asp?int_sec=2&int_new=52777



Faces Revealed:



http://www.artdaily.org/index.asp?int_sec=2&int_new=52770



Roads of Arabia:



http://arabnews.com/saudiarabia/article556814.ece



John Adams Unbound:



http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/01/nyregion/in-a-long-island-library-an-exhibition-on-john-adamss-books.html



Some video from the DSS exhibition:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_9VS6ld51g (featuring L. Schiffman)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIqoYvl2UuA



Feature on the British Museum:



http://www.tampabay.com/features/travel/british-museum-showcases-ages-of-history/1209331



... and one on US Museums in general:



http://www.physorg.com/news/2012-01-probing-museums.html



Overview of interesting museum purchases this year:



http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/30/arts/design/intriguing-items-from-a-year-of-auctions.html



The Louvre is the most visited museum:



http://iphone.france24.com/en/20120103-france-paris-louvre-museum-world-most-visited-mona-lisa-british-museum



Some art critics choose their favourite 'long term' pieces:



http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/30/arts/design/some-favorite-things-not-hanging-on-a-wall.html



Check out our Twitter hashtage for more ancient exhibition reviews:



http://search.twitter.com/search?q=%23classicalexhibit

================================================================

PERFORMANCES AND THEATRE-RELATED

================================================================

The Enchanted Island:



http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/02/arts/music/the-enchanted-island-at-the-metropolitan-opera-review.html



Pirates of Penzance:



http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/31/arts/music/pirates-of-penzance-at-symphony-space-review.html



An overview of assorted things going on on London stages:



http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/28/arts/28iht-lon28.html



Bachanalia:



http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/31/arts/music/bachanalia-at-merkin-concert-hall-review.html?ref=music



Check out our Twitter hashtag for Ancient Drama reviews:



http://search.twitter.com/search?q=%23ancientdrama



... and for Sword and Sandal flicks:



http://search.twitter.com/search?q=%23swordandsanda

================================================================

OBITUARIES

================================================================

Emmett Bennett:



http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/01/science/emmett-l-bennett-jr-dies-at-93-helped-decipher-linear-b.html

http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Classicist-Emmett-Bennett-93-2435211.php

================================================================

PODCASTS

================================================================

The Book and the Spade:



http://www.radioscribe.com/bknspade.htm



Stone Pages Archaeology News:



http://news.stonepages.com/



Archaeologica Audio News:



http://www.archaeologychannel.org/AudioNews.asp



Naked Archaeology Podcast:



http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/podcasts/archaeology/

================================================================

EXPLORATOR is a weekly newsletter representing the fruits of

the labours of 'media research division' of The Atrium. Various

on-line news and magazine sources are scoured for news of the

ancient world (broadly construed: practically anything relating

to archaeology or history prior to about 1700 or so is fair

game) and every Sunday they are delivered to your mailbox free of

charge!

================================================================

Useful Addresses

================================================================

Past issues of Explorator are available on the web via our

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================================================================

Explorator is Copyright (c) 2012 David Meadows. Feel free to

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86668 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: a.d. VI Non. Ian.
Cato omnibus in foro SPD

Hodiernus dies est ante diem VI Nones Ianuarius; haec dies comitialis est.

"But there was another division again of the men only, which assigned
kindly services and honours in accordance with merit, of which I am
now going to give an account. He distinguished those who were eminent
for their birth, approved for their virtue and wealthy for those
times, provided they already had children, from the obscure, the lowly
and the poor. Those of the lower rank he called "plebeians" (the Greek
would call them demotikoi or "men of the people"), and those of the
higher rank "fathers," either because they had children or from their
distinguished birth or for all these reasons. One may suspect that he
found his model in the system of government which at that time still
prevailed at Athens. For the Athenians had divided their population
into two parts, the eupatridai or "well-born," as they called those
who were of the noble families and powerful by reason of their wealth,
to whom the government of the city was committed, and the agroikoi or
"husbandmen," consisting of the rest of the citizens, who had no voice
in public affairs, though in the course of time these, also, were
admitted to the offices. Those who give the most probable account of
the Roman government say it was for the reasons I have given that
those men were called "fathers" and their posterity "patricians"; but
others, considering the matter in the light of their own envy and
desirous of casting reproach on the city for the ignoble birth of its
founders, say they were not called patricians for the reasons just
cited, but because these men only could point out their fathers — as
if all the rest were fugitives and unable to name free men as their
fathers. As proof of this style cite the fact that, whenever the
kings thought proper to assemble the patricians, the heralds called
them both by their own names and by the names of their fathers,
whereas public servants summoned the plebeians en masse to the
assemblies by the sound of ox horns. But in reality neither the
calling of the patricians by the heralds is any proof of their
nobility nor is the sound of the horn any mark of the obscurity of the
plebeians; but the former was an indication of honour and the latter
of expedition, since it was not possible in a short to call every one
of the multitude by name.

After Romulus had distinguished those of superior rank from their
inferiors, he next established laws by which the duties of each were
prescribed. The patricians were to be priests, magistrates and judges,
and were to assist him in the management of public affairs, devoting
themselves to the business of the city. The plebeians were excused
from these duties, as being unacquainted with them and because of
their small means wanting leisure to attend to them, but were to apply
themselves to agriculture, the breeding of cattle and the exercise of
gainful trades. This was to prevent them from engaging in seditions,
as happens in other cities when either the magistrates mistreat the
lowly, or the common people and the needy envy those in authority. He
placed the plebeians as a trust in the hands of the patricians, by
allowing every plebeian to choose for his patron any patrician whom he
himself wished. In this he improved upon an ancient Greek custom that
was in use among the Thessalians for a long time and among the
Athenians in the beginning. For the former treated their client with
haughtiness, imposing on them duties unbecoming to free men; and
whenever they disobeyed any of their commands, they beat them and
misused them in all other respects as if had been slaves they had
purchased. The Athenians called their clients thetes or "hirelings,"
because they served for hire, and the Thessalians called theirs
penestai or "toilers," by the very name reproaching them with their
condition. But Romulus not only recommended the relationship by a
handsome designation, calling this protection of the poor and lowly a
"patronage," but he also assigned friendly offices to both parties,
thus making the connexion between them a bond of kindness befitting
fellow citizens." - Dionysius of Halicarnassus, "Roman Antiquities" II.8-9


"O Phales, comrade revel-roaming
Of Bacchus, wanderer of the gloaming,
Of wives and boys the naughty lover,
Here in my home I gladly greet Ye,
The worst of winter nearly over,
And press You with my bold entreaty.

Far happier 'tis to me and sweeter,
O Phales, Phales, some soft glade in,
To woo the saucy, arch, deceiving,
Young Thratty, buxom country maiden,
As from my woodland fells I meet her,
Descending with my kindling laden,
And catch her up and I'll entreat her,
And make her pay the fine for thieving.

O Phales, Phales, come and sup,
And in the morn, to brace you up,
Of joy you'll quaff a jovial cup." - Aristophanes, "Acharnians"
ll.263-78 (tr. B. B. Rogers)

In ancient Greece today was celebrated as the Lesser (or "Rural")
Dionysia, in honor of Dionysis, the god of reverly and wine. He seems
to be a god who has two distinct personae: he was the god of wine,
agriculture and the fertility of Nature; patron god of the Greek
stage, of poetry, song, festivities and parties; promoter of
civilisation; a lawgiver and lover of peace. However, he also
represented the primary features of mystery religions, such as those
practised at Eleusis: ecstasy, transcendence from the mundane world
through physical or spiritual intoxication, as well as initiation into
secret rites. The Lesser Dionysia were celebrated in the month of
Poseidon. This the most ancient festival of all, when even slaves
enjoyed full freedom. There were dramatic contests; Aristotle claimed
(Poet. 1449a) that comedy was born in the Rural Dionysia. The peasants
would assail the bystanders as they rode by in wagons. According to
Plutarch (3.527D), there was a procession of the carriers of a jar of
wine and a vine, with someone leading a he-goat, followed by the
Kanephoros (Basket-bearer) who carried a basket of raisins. Then came
the carriers of an erect, wooden phallus-pole, decorated with ivy and
fillets, and finally the singer of the Phallikon (Phallic Song), which
was addressed to "Phales".

Valete bene!

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86669 From: Q Caecilius Metellus Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Q Caecilius Metellus praetoribus s.d.

Saluete, Praetores.

I have to respectfully request that you reconsider the last provisions
of your recently published edict, specifically:

> 5. All posts will be expected to be signed by the poster's Roman
> name. Latin openings and closings will be welcome but not mandatory.
> More information about the use of Latin in email is given here:
> http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Latin_for_e-mail
>
> 6. Except for the openings and closings, all Latin text posted on the
> ML must be accompanied by an English translation so that those less
> familiar with Latin will be able to understand it.

If the enforcement of these provisions includes any moderation or other
restriction of the ability of a citizen to speak in and participate in
this forum, this would put you in violation of Paragraph II.B.4 of the
lex constitutiua, which states that all citizens shall have "The right
to participate in all public fora and discussions, and the right to
reasonably expect such fora to be supported by the State. Such
communications, regardless of their content, may not be restricted by
the State, except where they represent an imminent and clear danger to
the Republic. Such officially sponsored fora may be expected to be
reasonably moderated in the interests of maintaining order and
civility."

Certainly allowing communication that is in violation of the Yahoo TOS
could be deemed to pose an "imminent and clear danger to the
Republic." Barring any reconsideration on your part, then, could you
explain to the People how posting in a language other than English
poses the same?

Di Romanos incolumes bene custodiant.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86670 From: V. Valerius Volusus Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
V. Valerius Volusus Tribunus Plebis Q. Caecilio Metello s.p.d.

FYI - I have polled the other Tribunes concerning this matter. Indeed, you
are correct, sir. We would like to give the Praetores an opportunity to
resolve this issue without any other intervention being necessary. However,
if that does not occur, we are discussing alternative remedial action to
uphold the Constitution.

Thank you for raising the issue.

Vale bene,

Volusus

On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 3:33 AM, Q Caecilius Metellus <
q.caecilius.metellus@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Q Caecilius Metellus praetoribus s.d.
>
> Saluete, Praetores.
>
> I have to respectfully request that you reconsider the last provisions
> of your recently published edict, specifically:
>
>
> > 5. All posts will be expected to be signed by the poster's Roman
> > name. Latin openings and closings will be welcome but not mandatory.
> > More information about the use of Latin in email is given here:
> > http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Latin_for_e-mail
> >
> > 6. Except for the openings and closings, all Latin text posted on the
> > ML must be accompanied by an English translation so that those less
> > familiar with Latin will be able to understand it.
>
> If the enforcement of these provisions includes any moderation or other
> restriction of the ability of a citizen to speak in and participate in
> this forum, this would put you in violation of Paragraph II.B.4 of the
> lex constitutiua, which states that all citizens shall have "The right
> to participate in all public fora and discussions, and the right to
> reasonably expect such fora to be supported by the State. Such
> communications, regardless of their content, may not be restricted by
> the State, except where they represent an imminent and clear danger to
> the Republic. Such officially sponsored fora may be expected to be
> reasonably moderated in the interests of maintaining order and
> civility."
>
> Certainly allowing communication that is in violation of the Yahoo TOS
> could be deemed to pose an "imminent and clear danger to the
> Republic." Barring any reconsideration on your part, then, could you
> explain to the People how posting in a language other than English
> poses the same?
>
> Di Romanos incolumes bene custodiant.
>
>
>



--
V. Valerius Volusus
Tribunus Plebis

*Public servant*: you don't need any prior introduction to contact me in
private if you
have any problems, worries or concerns about any aspect of Nova Roman
government.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86671 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica Q. Caecilio Metello V. Valerio Voluso C. Petronio
> Dextro Sta. Corneliae Aeterniae quiritibus bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
>
> My comments are interleaved below near the end.
>
>
>
> Q Caecilius Metellus praetoribus s.d.
>
> Saluete, Praetores.
>
> I have to respectfully request that you reconsider the last provisions
> of your recently published edict, specifically:
>
>> > 5. All posts will be expected to be signed by the poster's Roman
>> > name. Latin openings and closings will be welcome but not mandatory.
>> > More information about the use of Latin in email is given here:
>> > http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Latin_for_e-mail
>> >
>> > 6. Except for the openings and closings, all Latin text posted on the
>> > ML must be accompanied by an English translation so that those less
>> > familiar with Latin will be able to understand it.
>
> If the enforcement of these provisions includes any moderation or other
> restriction of the ability of a citizen to speak in and participate in
> this forum, this would put you in violation of Paragraph II.B.4 of the
> lex constitutiua, which states that all citizens shall have "The right
> to participate in all public fora and discussions, and the right to
> reasonably expect such fora to be supported by the State. Such
> communications, regardless of their content, may not be restricted by
> the State, except where they represent an imminent and clear danger to
> the Republic. Such officially sponsored fora may be expected to be
> reasonably moderated in the interests of maintaining order and
> civility."
>
> Certainly allowing communication that is in violation of the Yahoo TOS
> could be deemed to pose an "imminent and clear danger to the
> Republic." Barring any reconsideration on your part, then, could you
> explain to the People how posting in a language other than English
> poses the same?
>
> ATS: I fully support using a greeting and signature, which are elements
> of courtesy which also facilitate replies to the writer. However, with
> Metellus I wonder how the use of Latin is harmful? No one has to read every
> post sent to every list of which he or she is a member, or every portion
> thereof. Moreover, especially in a Roman-oriented organization, why is Latin
> the only language singled out for this treatment? It seems that if Lentulus
> would post in Hungarian, a language little known outside of the boundaries of
> his own country and unrelated to anything but a distant cousin, Finnish [and
> more distant cousins, Turkish and Mongolian], he would be allowed to do so
> without translation (not that he would), whereas a universal language taught
> in many secondary schools, colleges, and universities throughout the world as
> well as related to many other modern languages is singled out for mandatory
> translation. If Pomerium posted in Italian, that would be fine, but if they
> chose to write in Latin (a language REQUIRED in many Italian schools), they
> would be moderated for over two weeks? This is totally unjust. It is also a
> black eye for an organization such as ours, devoted to Roman culture. Here we
> can gain credibility in academia by having a censor, a consul, and a praetor
> who can not only read, but write Latin (and in at least two instances, speak
> it), and you trample that underfoot by damning Latin. Has no one heard that
> Latin is the language which has contributed some 60% of the English
> vocabulary? I have some lovely samples of English before much, if any, Latin
> entered it; I guarantee that no native English speaker could understand a
> single one without special study. I¹d post some here, but then I can¹t
> translate them, either, despite college German and several linguistics
> courses...
>
> Di Romanos incolumes bene custodiant.
>
> ATS: I don¹t know what the Roman gods would think about this, but I
> suspect that they might be less than pleased. Chances are that they know
> Latin.
>
> Valete.
>
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86672 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Ave Scholastica,

Every language other than English SHOULD require a translation, per the Lex
Cornelia, the official language of Nova Roma is English. Latin is the
Ceremonial. To assume that Latin is being singled out, Scholastica, is
just naive and wrong.

Respectfully,

Sulla

On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 3:30 PM, A. Tullia Scholastica
<fororom@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> >
> > A. Tullia Scholastica Q. Caecilio Metello V. Valerio Voluso C. Petronio
> > Dextro Sta. Corneliae Aeterniae quiritibus bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
> >
> > My comments are interleaved below near the end.
> >
> >
> >
> > Q Caecilius Metellus praetoribus s.d.
> >
> > Saluete, Praetores.
> >
> > I have to respectfully request that you reconsider the last provisions
> > of your recently published edict, specifically:
> >
> >> > 5. All posts will be expected to be signed by the poster's Roman
> >> > name. Latin openings and closings will be welcome but not mandatory.
> >> > More information about the use of Latin in email is given here:
> >> > http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Latin_for_e-mail
> >> >
> >> > 6. Except for the openings and closings, all Latin text posted on the
> >> > ML must be accompanied by an English translation so that those less
> >> > familiar with Latin will be able to understand it.
> >
> > If the enforcement of these provisions includes any moderation or other
> > restriction of the ability of a citizen to speak in and participate in
> > this forum, this would put you in violation of Paragraph II.B.4 of the
> > lex constitutiua, which states that all citizens shall have "The right
> > to participate in all public fora and discussions, and the right to
> > reasonably expect such fora to be supported by the State. Such
> > communications, regardless of their content, may not be restricted by
> > the State, except where they represent an imminent and clear danger to
> > the Republic. Such officially sponsored fora may be expected to be
> > reasonably moderated in the interests of maintaining order and
> > civility."
> >
> > Certainly allowing communication that is in violation of the Yahoo TOS
> > could be deemed to pose an "imminent and clear danger to the
> > Republic." Barring any reconsideration on your part, then, could you
> > explain to the People how posting in a language other than English
> > poses the same?
> >
> > ATS: I fully support using a greeting and signature, which are elements
> > of courtesy which also facilitate replies to the writer. However, with
> > Metellus I wonder how the use of Latin is harmful? No one has to read
> every
> > post sent to every list of which he or she is a member, or every portion
> > thereof. Moreover, especially in a Roman-oriented organization, why is
> Latin
> > the only language singled out for this treatment? It seems that if
> Lentulus
> > would post in Hungarian, a language little known outside of the
> boundaries of
> > his own country and unrelated to anything but a distant cousin, Finnish
> [and
> > more distant cousins, Turkish and Mongolian], he would be allowed to do
> so
> > without translation (not that he would), whereas a universal language
> taught
> > in many secondary schools, colleges, and universities throughout the
> world as
> > well as related to many other modern languages is singled out for
> mandatory
> > translation. If Pomerium posted in Italian, that would be fine, but if
> they
> > chose to write in Latin (a language REQUIRED in many Italian schools),
> they
> > would be moderated for over two weeks? This is totally unjust. It is
> also a
> > black eye for an organization such as ours, devoted to Roman culture.
> Here we
> > can gain credibility in academia by having a censor, a consul, and a
> praetor
> > who can not only read, but write Latin (and in at least two instances,
> speak
> > it), and you trample that underfoot by damning Latin. Has no one heard
> that
> > Latin is the language which has contributed some 60% of the English
> > vocabulary? I have some lovely samples of English before much, if any,
> Latin
> > entered it; I guarantee that no native English speaker could understand a
> > single one without special study. I�d post some here, but then I can�t
> > translate them, either, despite college German and several linguistics
> > courses...
> >
> > Di Romanos incolumes bene custodiant.
> >
> > ATS: I don�t know what the Roman gods would think about this, but I
> > suspect that they might be less than pleased. Chances are that they know
> > Latin.
> >
> > Valete.
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86673 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
C. Petronius Q. Metello s.p.d.,

> I have to respectfully request that you reconsider the last provisions of your recently published edict, specifically:

> > 5. All posts will be expected to be signed by the poster's Roman
> > name. Latin openings and closings will be welcome but not mandatory. More information about the use of Latin in email is given here: http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Latin_for_e-mail

This point 5 was yet in the last year edict. And perhaps you may explain me where is the problem to encourage citizen to use the Latin in the openings and closings of their mails. Latin formulas being welcome but not mandatory.

> > 6. Except for the openings and closings, all Latin text posted on the ML must be accompanied by an English translation so that those less familiar with Latin will be able to understand it.

>>> If the enforcement of these provisions includes any moderation or other restriction of the ability of a citizen to speak in and participate in this forum, this would put you in violation of Paragraph II.B.4 of the lex constitutiua, which states that all citizens shall have "The right to participate in all public fora and discussions,<<<

In what measure the point 6 denies the right to participate to the Fora Nova Romana? Could you be more clear.

Optime vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
a. d. VI Idus Ianuarias Cn. Caesare C. Tullio coss.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86674 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Cato Tulliae Scholasticae sal.

The issue is not that Latin is "harmful" at all, censor, and I am actually slightly confused as to why you might have read that into the pontiff's speech.

The point the pontiff is making is that posting a personal message (as opposed specifically to a governmental, official, message) in a language other than English is permitted under our law and the Constitution guarantees that citizens may do so without restriction by the State. There is simply no legal reason why a citizen should be prevented from posting in their native tongue, and whether or not they deem it necessary to translate this into English is up to them.

Vale bene,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86675 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Cato Sullae sal.

No, the lex Cornelia simply makes it clear that the *government's* day-to-day language is English. The Lex Cornelia de linguis publicis says:

"III. English is hereby adopted as the business language of Nova Roma's central government. As such, it shall be used in official communications from and day-to-day business conducted by the central government (defined for purposes of this proviso as the Senate and non-provincial magistrates). Other languages may be used in such communications where deemed appropriate, but an English translation must accompany such communications."

The citizenry are unaffected by this lex. The "such communications" refers to "business conducted by the central government", not to *any* other communications (such as those between citizens).

Vale bene,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86676 From: Q Caecilius Metellus Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Q Caecilius Metellus A Tulliae Scholasticae L Cornelio Sullae in foro
s.d.

I believe Scholastica is, quite pointedly, very much correct that Latin
has been specially designated in the edict. Paragraph 6 of the edict
rather specifically states "... all *Latin* text ..." and "... "those
less familiar with *Latin* ..." (my emphasis in both cases).

Albeit not the concern I was raising in my original post, I do concur
that there has to be some question about pushing English over Latin in
a Roman organisation. I don't disagree that there is no small number
of citizens that do not know Latin, however nothing prevents any such
citizen from asking for a translation, if desired. For a Roman
organisation, though, it seems to me that perhaps we should be pushing
Latin (certainly not jamming it down anyone's throat, but encouraging
it, at least) over English, if not over all other languages.

So let me reiterate, or perhaps clarify, my concern: if the enforcement
of those provisions of the edict I noted includes moderation of
citizens, it would run counter to the provisions of the lex
constitutiua. So I would like some clarification by the praetores and,
if necessary, reconsideration of their edict.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86677 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Ave!

I know, I wrote it.

What I was citing in that law was Scholastica's bizarre comment that Latin
is somehow being persecuted...look at her statement that if Lentulus posted
something in Hungarian that it would be treated different. My point is
Latin has MORE standing in NR than Hungarian or French...the only language
set higher than Latin is English.

Vale,

Sulla

On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 3:43 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Cato Sullae sal.
>
> No, the lex Cornelia simply makes it clear that the *government's*
> day-to-day language is English. The Lex Cornelia de linguis publicis says:
>
> "III. English is hereby adopted as the business language of Nova Roma's
> central government. As such, it shall be used in official communications
> from and day-to-day business conducted by the central government (defined
> for purposes of this proviso as the Senate and non-provincial magistrates).
> Other languages may be used in such communications where deemed
> appropriate, but an English translation must accompany such communications."
>
> The citizenry are unaffected by this lex. The "such communications" refers
> to "business conducted by the central government", not to *any* other
> communications (such as those between citizens).
>
> Vale bene,
>
> Cato
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86678 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Cato Sullae sal.

Actually, I would say that since the ceremonial language of the Respublica is Latin, it has pre-eminence over even English, since it is through ceremoniae that the State deals with the gods.

But point taken. And it is true that Scholastica seems to always see persecutors of Latinists behind every tree.

Vale bene,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86679 From: V. Valerius Volusus Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
V. Valerius Volusus Petronio Dextro Praetori, Q. Caecilio Metello s.p.d.

If the text of the edict can be clarified that private citizens are
strongly encouraged to provide English translations, but that this is not
something a person will be placed in moderation over (only politely asked
to respect the mos of our Forums in this regard) then that would be
perfectly acceptable I think. However, as it reads now it seems that a
private citizen can be put under moderation for not providing an English
translation of Latin. As for any official, appointed or elected, this
should always be done in accordance with Lex Cornelia de linguis publicis.

I think some alteration of the text should be able to resolve this matter
without a great deal of controversy or compromise.

Valete bene, Volusus

On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 5:49 AM, Q Caecilius Metellus <
q.caecilius.metellus@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Q Caecilius Metellus A Tulliae Scholasticae L Cornelio Sullae in foro
> s.d.
>
> I believe Scholastica is, quite pointedly, very much correct that Latin
> has been specially designated in the edict. Paragraph 6 of the edict
> rather specifically states "... all *Latin* text ..." and "... "those
> less familiar with *Latin* ..." (my emphasis in both cases).
>
> Albeit not the concern I was raising in my original post, I do concur
> that there has to be some question about pushing English over Latin in
> a Roman organisation. I don't disagree that there is no small number
> of citizens that do not know Latin, however nothing prevents any such
> citizen from asking for a translation, if desired. For a Roman
> organisation, though, it seems to me that perhaps we should be pushing
> Latin (certainly not jamming it down anyone's throat, but encouraging
> it, at least) over English, if not over all other languages.
>
> So let me reiterate, or perhaps clarify, my concern: if the enforcement
> of those provisions of the edict I noted includes moderation of
> citizens, it would run counter to the provisions of the lex
> constitutiua. So I would like some clarification by the praetores and,
> if necessary, reconsideration of their edict.
>
>



--
V. Valerius Volusus
Tribunus Plebis

*Public servant*: you don't need any prior introduction to contact me in
private if you
have any problems, worries or concerns about any aspect of Nova Roman
government.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86680 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Ave!

I can see that point of view. :)

Respectfully,

Sulla

On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 3:52 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Cato Sullae sal.
>
> Actually, I would say that since the ceremonial language of the Respublica
> is Latin, it has pre-eminence over even English, since it is through
> ceremoniae that the State deals with the gods.
>
> But point taken. And it is true that Scholastica seems to always see
> persecutors of Latinists behind every tree.
>
> Vale bene,
>
> Cato
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86681 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
C. Petronius C. Catoni s.p.d.,

>>>There is simply no legal reason why a citizen should be prevented from posting in their native tongue, and whether or not they deem it necessary to translate this into English is up to them.<<<

Latin is the native tongue of nobody. By this edict I just precise that Latin posts in the ML are allowed accompanied by an English translation as the laws state it.

Why? Because I want clear exchanges between citizens in the forum. I guess that if you read a entire post in Latin and you do not understand it you will claim the application of the laws so that in the Forum we have to translate in English the posts in other languages.

So to prevent any claim, I precise it in this edict.

Optime vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
a. d. V Idus Ianuarias Cn. Caesare C. Tullio coss.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86682 From: Q Caecilius Metellus Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Q Caecilius Metellus C Petronio Dextro s.d.

Salue, Praetor.

I was composing my response to Scholastica when your response was
received; perhaps I did not fully explain myself well in my original
statement. My concern is not that the provisions themselves restrict
or deny a citizen the right to participate in the Forum; my concern is
that the enforcement of those provisions may include such restriction
(by means of moderation), which would be in violation of the quoted
portion of the lex constitutiua.

If, then, you and your colleague would be so kind as to clarify how you
intend to enforce said provisions, I believe the question can be
quickly resolved, much as I would greatly appreciate.

Vale optime!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86683 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Cn Iulius Caesar consul sal.

These are my own personal (non-official .... yet) views on this. I said in a private chat to a friend I was restraining from commenting, but given where this discussion is headed I have decided to pitch my ten cents/pennies in.

Firstly, the Constitution contains no interpretive mechanism so there is no definitive method (as usual) of resolving anything to do with that document. Second, the Tribunes can when determining a matter of intercessio (as one might predict this is where this may end up) look to the spirit if the Constitution.

So what are the Praetors requiring? That any Latin text is accompanied by an English translation. The Constitution in my opinion protects content. Since we (excepting the Tribunes) have to look to the literal definition, does content also cover the language of that content? I don’t think so. That general section relates to the preservation of free speech versus preventing imminent danger. Is free speech destroyed or restricted by requiring a Latin translation? I do not believe so. Additionally the law requires that magistrates communicate in English on official matters. Naturally it doesn’t define when something is official or not, so in theory we could have the ridiculous situation where magistrates discoursed amongst themselves in Latin, leaving the tribunes to have to scrabble round trying to determine if such a series of posts were business of the central government and/or official – which is a very murky legal area.

The point of a forum, to me, is to communicate to the benefit of all those entitled to be here. Latin isn’t understood by many and allowing a loop hole to exist where the use of that language can be exploited to the detriment of the majority seems imbecilic. It also is very impolite and simply taking the view that if people want to be able to understand such content that they should learn Latin is elitist and unrealistic.

As usual we have taken a clause regarding freedom of speech and turned it into a charter right that would promote the exact opposite for the vast majority of our citizens regarding the use of Latin. There are other points that I could cite in this, but since it all rests on the Constitution and the spin that the Tribunes put on this, well we will have to wait and see whether the edict is changed or we witness the first round of intercessio hurling. naturally, whatever the tribunes decide if it comes to it, we will have to accept, but personally I hope they take a wider view of the purpose of protecting free speech and not confuse that with the right to communicate in a manner that defeats the whole purpose of a forum.

And.. since the vast majority of those who can write Latin here and post without translation (aren’t some also a translator?) are fluent in English or even native English speakers, it is hardly a crushing imposition is it? Well, I will prepare my tea cup to hold the tempest that is likely to blow up over this.

Optime valete


From: Cato
Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2012 3:52 PM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE ROMAE (AKA MAIN LIST OR ML)


Cato Sullae sal.

Actually, I would say that since the ceremonial language of the Respublica is Latin, it has pre-eminence over even English, since it is through ceremoniae that the State deals with the gods.

But point taken. And it is true that Scholastica seems to always see persecutors of Latinists behind every tree.

Vale bene,

Cato



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86684 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
C. Petronius C. Catoni s.p.d.,

> But point taken. And it is true that Scholastica seems to always see persecutors of Latinists behind every tree.

I do not understand. She knows that I like and practice the Latin. I was this Sunday evening in my Latin Circle of Paris. I do not persecute the latinists, I only want that on the ML Latin posts are accompanied with English translation. And I think that such Q. Metellus as Tullia Scholastica are less embarassed than me to translate in English their Latin posts.

Optime vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
a. d. V Idus Ianuarias Cn. Caesare C. Tullio coss.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86685 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Ave Praetor,

Guess what, she sees you now as a persecutor of Latin.....the irony...is so
thick it can be cut with a spoon!

Vale,

Sulla

On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 4:14 PM, petronius_dexter <jfarnoud94@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> C. Petronius C. Catoni s.p.d.,
>
> > But point taken. And it is true that Scholastica seems to always see
> persecutors of Latinists behind every tree.
>
> I do not understand. She knows that I like and practice the Latin. I was
> this Sunday evening in my Latin Circle of Paris. I do not persecute the
> latinists, I only want that on the ML Latin posts are accompanied with
> English translation. And I think that such Q. Metellus as Tullia
> Scholastica are less embarassed than me to translate in English their Latin
> posts.
>
>
> Optime vale.
>
> C. Petronius Dexter
> Arcoiali scribebat
> a. d. V Idus Ianuarias Cn. Caesare C. Tullio coss.
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86686 From: Q Caecilius Metellus Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Q Caecilius Metellus C Equitio Catoni senatori consulari s.d.

Salue, Consularis.

Though I would hardly qualify my statement as a speech, I believe you
understood part of my concern very well. My concern is simply that one
of the available means of enforcing the noted provisions of the edict
is moderation: a restriction of a citizen's ability to communicate in
this forum. I certainly do not believe that C Petronius or A Tullia
feel that Latin is in any way harmful (it would be difficult for me to
believe that they feel anything but the exact opposite).

I disagree with your successor who recently posted, in that I feel that
language is an integral part of content. However I fully agree with
him that requiring a translation does not destroy or restrict free
speech in its own merit. My primary disagreement and specific concern
is simply that, if a citizen is prevented from communicating in this
forum on cause of having failed to provide an English translation to
their statements, such would, in my view, be a violation of that
citizen's right under the lex constitutiua. My concern is not specific
to the post being in Latin, though the edict gives this specification.

More generally (and I am not, shall we call it, "pontificating" :) this
to you specifically, but re-clarifying this for the general audience of
this message), my concern is that if a *citizen* is prevented from
communicating in this forum for *any* cause that does not amount to the
communication posing a *clear and imminent danger to the State*, the
citizen's right to otherwise unrestricted communication will have been
violated, and such cannot be allowed to be tolerated. All other
objections I have regarding the use of Latin in this forum (and others)
are not matters of law.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86687 From: Q Caecilius Metellus Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Q Caecilius Metellus V Valerio Voluso tr. pl. s.d.

Salue, Tribune.

> If the text of the edict can be clarified that private citizens are
> strongly encouraged to provide English translations, but that this is
> not something a person will be placed in moderation over (only
> politely asked to respect the mos of our Forums in this regard) then
> that would be perfectly acceptable I think. However, as it reads now
> it seems that a private citizen can be put under moderation for not
> providing an English translation of Latin.

*That* shows an exact understanding of my purpose and wherein lay my
concerns. While Consul Caesar is preparing his teacup, I personally
hope it proves unnecessary (though I gather it gets quite cold in his
part of the world, and I agree that a good cup of tea is more than
perfect under such conditions).
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86689 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Cato Q. Caecilio Metello Postumiano Pio sal.

Precisely. Although the consul may disagree to some extent, the *only* reason
the State may restrict speech is if they can show a "clear and imminent threat"
to the State. The burden of proof lies with the State, *not* with the citizen,
and any action taken before such imminent and clear threat is shown is a
violation of a Constitutional right.

The consul may be right in that there is no clear, written process by which
something may be defined as a "clear and imminent danger", but that is neither
the responsibility nor the concern of the citizens, nor should it be, and nor
should the *lack* thereof be used as an excuse for allowing it to not be upheld
in some manner.

I would disagree that it is necessarily impossible to define, however, in that
the lex Arminia Equitia specifically gives to the consuls the authority to
interpret the law at every level and on all subjects, without exception, so he
has within himself the authority to do so.

Not providing an English translation of a Latin text does not, on the face of
it, present a "clear and imminent" danger to the Respublica, and should not be
considered to do so unless the consul(s) decide that it does *or* the praetors
can *prove* that it does.

I am particularly interested in this as I often include Latin texts in the
calendar postings, and some are not translated into English. Would that be
cause to moderate me?

Vale bene,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86690 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Cn Iulius Caesar consul Q. Caecilio Metello sal.

I have a suspicion that tea is going to be a staple diet of mine for the next twelve months. It will fortify me for what is to come, if this is any measure of the future.

Naturally I regret that we may end up with an intercessio, but the Constitution is yet again to blame. I don’t fault you for your absolutist approach to interpretation, but I do reflect on the many “battles” I and others have fought in this forum to preserve real free speech under much more draconian circumstances. This hardly is in their league. My personal view is that this section of the Constitution regarding free speech is being prostituted in this interpretation by using it to try to strike down a sensible clause in this edict that would in fact promote a greater understanding and communication between citizens.

I think we are taking a donkey and dressing it up in the skin of a lion, which actually diminishes, in my opinion, all those preceding battles fought to defend free speech. It’s a personal view and maybe I am out of step with the silent majority, but it still seems a prostitution of a valued commodity to promote elitism and lack of communication. Overall that seems rather silly, but I predict the response might be that if give an inch on one element, we will give a mile. I understand that, but regardless of that, the end product, if this opposition is successful, will see a diminution in the rights of the vast majority of the users of this forum to the free speech that would come from understanding the comments of others. Added to that my concern of magisterial abuse as I mentioned previously.

I am an equal to you Metelle in defending free speech, if not having exceeded you in that respect. In all honesty I think the praetorial edicts promotes free speech for the vast majority. That is a good thing and if the minority have to provide a translation, then that is no crushing blow to free speech nor a grave imposition on them. The grave imposition would come if this clause is removed or the entire edict struck down.

Sadly our mos is best represented by this level of navel gazing and fluff picking, dressed up as some huge issue of civil liberty. It is what we do best in Nova Roma.

In fact – it is all we do in Nova Roma.

Optime vale.


From: Q Caecilius Metellus
Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2012 4:49 PM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE ROMAE (AKA MAIN LIST OR ML)


Q Caecilius Metellus V Valerio Voluso tr. pl. s.d.

Salue, Tribune.

> If the text of the edict can be clarified that private citizens are
> strongly encouraged to provide English translations, but that this is
> not something a person will be placed in moderation over (only
> politely asked to respect the mos of our Forums in this regard) then
> that would be perfectly acceptable I think. However, as it reads now
> it seems that a private citizen can be put under moderation for not
> providing an English translation of Latin.

*That* shows an exact understanding of my purpose and wherein lay my
concerns. While Consul Caesar is preparing his teacup, I personally



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86691 From: V. Valerius Volusus Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
V. Valerius Volusus tribunus plebis Cn. Iulio Caesari consuli omnibusque
s.p.d.

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. I have polled my colleagues to pay
attention to this issue and to offer their opinions, but to allow time for
a resolution to be proposed and to seek non-confrontational ways of
resolving it. I have already indicated to my colleagues that I am very
hesitant to issue an intercessio on this matter myself; particularly if
there is a more amiable way of dealing with it. I don't think there is any
call to start speculating about "intercessio hurling". If I get through
this year without issuing a single intercessio I will count it as a
success. As you well know I prefer negotiation and cordial cooperation. I
hope that such may work well in this particular circumstance. However, if
it doesn't that will be up to my Tribunician colleagues to decide.

On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 6:13 AM, Gnaeus Iulius Caesar <
gn_iulius_caesar@...> wrote:

> **
> Cn Iulius Caesar consul sal.
>
> These are my own personal (non-official .... yet) views on this. I said in
> a private chat to a friend I was restraining from commenting, but given
> where this discussion is headed I have decided to pitch my ten
> cents/pennies in.
>
> Firstly, the Constitution contains no interpretive mechanism so there is
> no definitive method (as usual) of resolving anything to do with that
> document. Second, the Tribunes can when determining a matter of intercessio
> (as one might predict this is where this may end up) look to the spirit if
> the Constitution.
>
The Tribunes, at least one of us right now, are observing and seeking a
simple resolution. There is no reason to assume that either my colleagues
or I particularly wish to be issuing intercessiones at every available
opportunity. We will consider carefully the issue raised. I have my own
opinions, my colleagues will have their own.

> So what are the Praetors requiring? That any Latin text is accompanied by
> an English translation. The Constitution in my opinion protects content.
> Since we (excepting the Tribunes) have to look to the literal definition,
> does content also cover the language of that content? I don�t think so.
> That general section relates to the preservation of free speech versus
> preventing imminent danger. Is free speech destroyed or restricted by
> requiring a Latin translation? I do not believe so. Additionally the law
> requires that magistrates communicate in English on official matters.
> Naturally it doesn�t define when something is official or not, so in theory
> we could have the ridiculous situation where magistrates discoursed amongst
> themselves in Latin, leaving the tribunes to have to scrabble round trying
> to determine if such a series of posts were business of the central
> government and/or official � which is a very murky legal area.
>
That is an interesting philosophical point, but I think most people
understand that freedom of speech implies freedom of expression also. Use
of language is an important aspect of human expression, particularly in a
culturally orientated community like ours. However, the quoted section of
the Constitution does not talk about free speech - it talks about the State
having no right to restrict communication except in case of clear and
imminent danger to the Republic.

And is there really no means by which the Praetores edicta can be worded in
such a way that officials must always consider any post they make to be
subject to lex de linguis publicis? Simply clarifying that it is not a
"moderation offense" for a private citizen to fail to provide an English
translation

> The point of a forum, to me, is to communicate to the benefit of all those
> entitled to be here. Latin isn�t understood by many and allowing a loop
> hole to exist where the use of that language can be exploited to the
> detriment of the majority seems imbecilic. It also is very impolite and
> simply taking the view that if people want to be able to understand such
> content that they should learn Latin is elitist and unrealistic.
>
Impolite? Certainly, it can be considered so, but breaking social etiquette
is not the same thing as committing an offense that can place one under a
period of moderation.

> As usual we have taken a clause regarding freedom of speech and turned it
> into a charter right that would promote the exact opposite for the vast
> majority of our citizens regarding the use of Latin.
>
I really don't follow this logic. If you wish to argue that private
citizens quoting untranslated Latin constitutes a clear and imminent danger
to the Republic then that would be an interesting argument in itself.

> There are other points that I could cite in this, but since it all rests
> on the Constitution and the spin that the Tribunes put on this, well we
> will have to wait and see whether the edict is changed or we witness the
> first round of intercessio hurling. naturally, whatever the tribunes decide
> if it comes to it, we will have to accept, but personally I hope they take
> a wider view of the purpose of protecting free speech and not confuse that
> with the right to communicate in a manner that defeats the whole purpose of
> a forum.
>
Here is the "spin" this Tribune puts on the Constitution: "Such
communications, regardless of their content, may not be restricted by the
State, except where they represent an imminent and clear danger to the
Republic."

"Regardless of the content" - No distinction here about content vs. mode of
expression of that content, simply "regardless".
"may not be restricted by the state" - This is unequivocal: the State
CANNOT restrict communications.
"except where they represent an imminent and clear danger to the Republic"
- This is the only conditional in the entire clause of citizen rights. The
conditions are 1/ Clear 2/ Imminent 3/ Dangerous.

I appreciate that I am heavily spin-doctoring by taking the wording of the
Constitution so literally and seriously. I can't say anything about the
spirit of the thing, that's something that typically requires institutions
like Supreme Courts to decide - I am put a lowly Pleb. I guess you may
represent the Supreme Court in our situation. I would be interested how
this actually SHOULD be interpreted.

It seems to me that we managed perfectly well without this clause before. I
don't see blood flowing in the streets. I just don't see the imminent and
clear danger that someone posting Latin poses. I will agree that it may be
impolite, it may even cause many of us to politely ask a person to provide
a translation, and even let it be known that we expect people to take
non-Latinists into consideration. What we should not allow is the State to
penalize someone for simply being impolite. Why, if that was the case,
given the tone of our political discussions sometimes, the whole government
could be put under moderation! :D

> And.. since the vast majority of those who can write Latin here and post
> without translation (aren�t some also a translator?) are fluent in English
> or even native English speakers, it is hardly a crushing imposition is it?
> Well, I will prepare my tea cup to hold the tempest that is likely to blow
> up over this.
>
It's not a matter of how "crushing" an imposition, it's a matter of there
being an imposition at all. There is no mention about freedom of speech
here, it's about the limits of the State to restrict communications,
regardless of content. You might define an artificial boundary between
content and language - and Bill Clinton may redefine the word "is", but
communication implies sign (language) and the signifier/signified
(content). I could very easily enter into a discussion regarding semiotics
if you like, but I don't recommend it. That sort of thing has a way of
turning tea sour.

Enjoy your tea Consul :)

Valete optime,

Volusus

>
> Optime valete
>
>
> From: Cato
> Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2012 3:52 PM
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF
> THE FORUM NOVAE ROMAE (AKA MAIN LIST OR ML)
>
>
> Cato Sullae sal.
>
> Actually, I would say that since the ceremonial language of the Respublica
> is Latin, it has pre-eminence over even English, since it is through
> ceremoniae that the State deals with the gods.
>
> But point taken. And it is true that Scholastica seems to always see
> persecutors of Latinists behind every tree.
>
> Vale bene,
>
> Cato
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>



--
V. Valerius Volusus
Tribunus Plebis

*Public servant*: you don't need any prior introduction to contact me in
private if you
have any problems, worries or concerns about any aspect of Nova Roman
government.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86692 From: Gaius Octavius Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Salvete omnes,



I have a few thoughts related to this thread if I mat be permitted to be
so presumptuous.



I wonder if the English requirement of Lex Cornelia may be possibly
outdated given the fact that "Google Translate",
http://translate.google.com , does a fair enough job with most modern
languages. I have often used it when reading posts in various Facebook
groups that are not English based. Although not always completely
accurate, the basic meanings are still pretty clear. I've in fact
conducted eBay auctions in which I communicated with non-English speakers
and they�ve reported that my use of Google Translate was clear enough for
them to understand. I've successfully culminated eBay sales in both Italy
and France using it. Maybe we ought to rethink the English only rule as it
may be making Nova Roma a somewhat less inclusive environment for some.



I think Nova Roma should always try to be more inclusive whenever possible
to the degree that it is practical. If we are not going to require that
all participants use the original language of the Republic, i.e. Latin,
then I think it is also unfair to require that all participants be forced
to use English if it is not their native tongue; especially if they do not
have proficiency in it. As an American, I think it would be a gesture of
good will to our members from across the globe to retire this outdated rule.



Could we not try some sort of trial period in which posters and readers of
the ML could try using "Google Translate" and see if my idea makes any
sense? It may not be practical but is the effort to try unreasonable?


As a student of Latin, I enjoy seeing it used but I can also understand
that many might be opposed to its widespread use on the ML beyond the basic
greetings and salutations. "Google Translate" however is not fully useful
for Latin as is not very good with such a highly inflected language. In
fact, the Latin component is still in a "Beta" stage. I've tried parsing
many Latin phrases using it and I am not overly impressed.



Hopefully, at some point, "Google Translate" will refine its Latin
component and we could someday see the ML flowing in the ancient tongue!


Vale,



C. Octavius Priscus



On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 7:17 PM, V. Valerius Volusus <volvsvs@...>wrote:

> V. Valerius Volusus tribunus plebis Cn. Iulio Caesari consuli omnibusque
> s.p.d.
>
> Let's not get ahead of ourselves. I have polled my colleagues to pay
> attention to this issue and to offer their opinions, but to allow time for
> a resolution to be proposed and to seek non-confrontational ways of
> resolving it. I have already indicated to my colleagues that I am very
> hesitant to issue an intercessio on this matter myself; particularly if
> there is a more amiable way of dealing with it. I don't think there is any
> call to start speculating about "intercessio hurling". If I get through
> this year without issuing a single intercessio I will count it as a
> success. As you well know I prefer negotiation and cordial cooperation. I
> hope that such may work well in this particular circumstance. However, if
> it doesn't that will be up to my Tribunician colleagues to decide.
>
> On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 6:13 AM, Gnaeus Iulius Caesar <
> gn_iulius_caesar@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> > Cn Iulius Caesar consul sal.
> >
> > These are my own personal (non-official .... yet) views on this. I said
> in
> > a private chat to a friend I was restraining from commenting, but given
> > where this discussion is headed I have decided to pitch my ten
> > cents/pennies in.
> >
> > Firstly, the Constitution contains no interpretive mechanism so there is
> > no definitive method (as usual) of resolving anything to do with that
> > document. Second, the Tribunes can when determining a matter of
> intercessio
> > (as one might predict this is where this may end up) look to the spirit
> if
> > the Constitution.
> >
> The Tribunes, at least one of us right now, are observing and seeking a
> simple resolution. There is no reason to assume that either my colleagues
> or I particularly wish to be issuing intercessiones at every available
> opportunity. We will consider carefully the issue raised. I have my own
> opinions, my colleagues will have their own.
>
> > So what are the Praetors requiring? That any Latin text is accompanied by
> > an English translation. The Constitution in my opinion protects content.
> > Since we (excepting the Tribunes) have to look to the literal definition,
> > does content also cover the language of that content? I don�t think so.
> > That general section relates to the preservation of free speech versus
> > preventing imminent danger. Is free speech destroyed or restricted by
> > requiring a Latin translation? I do not believe so. Additionally the law
> > requires that magistrates communicate in English on official matters.
> > Naturally it doesn�t define when something is official or not, so in
> theory
> > we could have the ridiculous situation where magistrates discoursed
> amongst
> > themselves in Latin, leaving the tribunes to have to scrabble round
> trying
> > to determine if such a series of posts were business of the central
> > government and/or official � which is a very murky legal area.
> >
> That is an interesting philosophical point, but I think most people
> understand that freedom of speech implies freedom of expression also. Use
> of language is an important aspect of human expression, particularly in a
> culturally orientated community like ours. However, the quoted section of
> the Constitution does not talk about free speech - it talks about the State
> having no right to restrict communication except in case of clear and
> imminent danger to the Republic.
>
> And is there really no means by which the Praetores edicta can be worded in
> such a way that officials must always consider any post they make to be
> subject to lex de linguis publicis? Simply clarifying that it is not a
> "moderation offense" for a private citizen to fail to provide an English
> translation
>
> > The point of a forum, to me, is to communicate to the benefit of all
> those
> > entitled to be here. Latin isn�t understood by many and allowing a loop
> > hole to exist where the use of that language can be exploited to the
> > detriment of the majority seems imbecilic. It also is very impolite and
> > simply taking the view that if people want to be able to understand such
> > content that they should learn Latin is elitist and unrealistic.
> >
> Impolite? Certainly, it can be considered so, but breaking social etiquette
> is not the same thing as committing an offense that can place one under a
> period of moderation.
>
> > As usual we have taken a clause regarding freedom of speech and turned it
> > into a charter right that would promote the exact opposite for the vast
> > majority of our citizens regarding the use of Latin.
> >
> I really don't follow this logic. If you wish to argue that private
> citizens quoting untranslated Latin constitutes a clear and imminent danger
> to the Republic then that would be an interesting argument in itself.
>
> > There are other points that I could cite in this, but since it all rests
> > on the Constitution and the spin that the Tribunes put on this, well we
> > will have to wait and see whether the edict is changed or we witness the
> > first round of intercessio hurling. naturally, whatever the tribunes
> decide
> > if it comes to it, we will have to accept, but personally I hope they
> take
> > a wider view of the purpose of protecting free speech and not confuse
> that
> > with the right to communicate in a manner that defeats the whole purpose
> of
> > a forum.
> >
> Here is the "spin" this Tribune puts on the Constitution: "Such
> communications, regardless of their content, may not be restricted by the
> State, except where they represent an imminent and clear danger to the
> Republic."
>
> "Regardless of the content" - No distinction here about content vs. mode of
> expression of that content, simply "regardless".
> "may not be restricted by the state" - This is unequivocal: the State
> CANNOT restrict communications.
> "except where they represent an imminent and clear danger to the Republic"
> - This is the only conditional in the entire clause of citizen rights. The
> conditions are 1/ Clear 2/ Imminent 3/ Dangerous.
>
> I appreciate that I am heavily spin-doctoring by taking the wording of the
> Constitution so literally and seriously. I can't say anything about the
> spirit of the thing, that's something that typically requires institutions
> like Supreme Courts to decide - I am put a lowly Pleb. I guess you may
> represent the Supreme Court in our situation. I would be interested how
> this actually SHOULD be interpreted.
>
> It seems to me that we managed perfectly well without this clause before. I
> don't see blood flowing in the streets. I just don't see the imminent and
> clear danger that someone posting Latin poses. I will agree that it may be
> impolite, it may even cause many of us to politely ask a person to provide
> a translation, and even let it be known that we expect people to take
> non-Latinists into consideration. What we should not allow is the State to
> penalize someone for simply being impolite. Why, if that was the case,
> given the tone of our political discussions sometimes, the whole government
> could be put under moderation! :D
>
> > And.. since the vast majority of those who can write Latin here and post
> > without translation (aren�t some also a translator?) are fluent in
> English
> > or even native English speakers, it is hardly a crushing imposition is
> it?
> > Well, I will prepare my tea cup to hold the tempest that is likely to
> blow
> > up over this.
> >
> It's not a matter of how "crushing" an imposition, it's a matter of there
> being an imposition at all. There is no mention about freedom of speech
> here, it's about the limits of the State to restrict communications,
> regardless of content. You might define an artificial boundary between
> content and language - and Bill Clinton may redefine the word "is", but
> communication implies sign (language) and the signifier/signified
> (content). I could very easily enter into a discussion regarding semiotics
> if you like, but I don't recommend it. That sort of thing has a way of
> turning tea sour.
>
> Enjoy your tea Consul :)
>
> Valete optime,
>
> Volusus
>
> >
> > Optime valete
> >
> >
> > From: Cato
> > Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2012 3:52 PM
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF
> > THE FORUM NOVAE ROMAE (AKA MAIN LIST OR ML)
> >
> >
> > Cato Sullae sal.
> >
> > Actually, I would say that since the ceremonial language of the
> Respublica
> > is Latin, it has pre-eminence over even English, since it is through
> > ceremoniae that the State deals with the gods.
> >
> > But point taken. And it is true that Scholastica seems to always see
> > persecutors of Latinists behind every tree.
> >
> > Vale bene,
> >
> > Cato
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> V. Valerius Volusus
> Tribunus Plebis
>
> *Public servant*: you don't need any prior introduction to contact me in
> private if you
> have any problems, worries or concerns about any aspect of Nova Roman
> government.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86693 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Cn. Iulius Caesar consul V. Valerio Vuluso Tr. Pl. sal.

Yes, I know you prefer the way of negotiation and I equally know that now
this issue has been raised we will have to wait for a finite answer to this
issue, for at least 72 hours - or earlier should the edict be changed or an
intercessio be pronounced.

As to "intercessio hurling" I am not speculating, but the prospect of an
entire year without one would cause me to conclude I was in likely not in
the Forum of Nova Roma ;) It seems unlikely but would be a startling change
were it to occur.

Naturally we wait now. That is all we can do.

Optime vale.


-----Original Message-----
From: V. Valerius Volusus
Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2012 5:17 PM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION
OF THE FORUM NOVAE ROMAE (AKA MAIN LIST OR ML)

V. Valerius Volusus tribunus plebis Cn. Iulio Caesari consuli omnibusque
s.p.d.

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. I have polled my colleagues to pay
attention to this issue and to offer their opinions, but to allow time for
a resolution to be proposed and to seek non-confrontational ways of
.com/info/terms/
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86694 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
> A. Tullia Scholastica C. Equitio Catoni quiritibus bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
>
>
>
>
> Cato Sullae sal.
>
> No, the lex Cornelia simply makes it clear that the *government's* day-to-day
> language is English. The Lex Cornelia de linguis publicis says:
>
> "III. English is hereby adopted as the business language of Nova Roma's
> central government. As such, it shall be used in official communications from
> and day-to-day business conducted by the central government (defined for
> purposes of this proviso as the Senate and non-provincial magistrates). Other
> languages may be used in such communications where deemed appropriate, but an
> English translation must accompany such communications."
>
> The citizenry are unaffected by this lex. The "such communications" refers to
> "business conducted by the central government", not to *any* other
> communications (such as those between citizens).
>
> ATS: Exactly. Edicta, rogationes, Senate reports, and the like are
> official business matters and must appear in English, whatever other languages
> are used. Other communications here and in FH are not official at all.
>
> Priscus has also made the very fine point that there are translation
> programs, such as Babelfish, which may be used for such purposes. They may
> not be well adapted to inflected languages such as Russian, German, classical
> Greek, Sanskrit, Latin, etc., but the latter is the most regular of the lot
> and has a small vocabulary as languages go, so these translation programs
> should be somewhat useful in dealing with Latin. We also offer Latin courses
> for those unfortunate enough to have missed them during their academic
> careers, with the caveat that work is involved, and so is time.
>
> Vale bene,
>
> Cato
>
> Vale, et valete.
>
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86695 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Ave

Umm..those translation programs are very hit and miss. I use two of them
regularly for my friends on facebook who speak in Hebrew..and on both
Babylon and google translation I can get completely different translations.
I still have to rely on them when there are conflicts between the
translations and I dare say Hebrew is a much more used language than Latin.

I don't think that the Lex Cornelia is not going to go anywhere for the
forseeable future given that 100% of the official business in Nova Roma is
done in English.

Vale,

Sulla

On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 6:27 PM, A. Tullia Scholastica
<fororom@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> > A. Tullia Scholastica C. Equitio Catoni quiritibus bonae voluntatis
> S.P.D.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Cato Sullae sal.
> >
> > No, the lex Cornelia simply makes it clear that the *government's*
> day-to-day
> > language is English. The Lex Cornelia de linguis publicis says:
> >
> > "III. English is hereby adopted as the business language of Nova Roma's
> > central government. As such, it shall be used in official communications
> from
> > and day-to-day business conducted by the central government (defined for
> > purposes of this proviso as the Senate and non-provincial magistrates).
> Other
> > languages may be used in such communications where deemed appropriate,
> but an
> > English translation must accompany such communications."
> >
> > The citizenry are unaffected by this lex. The "such communications"
> refers to
> > "business conducted by the central government", not to *any* other
> > communications (such as those between citizens).
> >
> > ATS: Exactly. Edicta, rogationes, Senate reports, and the like are
> > official business matters and must appear in English, whatever other
> languages
> > are used. Other communications here and in FH are not official at all.
> >
> > Priscus has also made the very fine point that there are translation
> > programs, such as Babelfish, which may be used for such purposes. They
> may
> > not be well adapted to inflected languages such as Russian, German,
> classical
> > Greek, Sanskrit, Latin, etc., but the latter is the most regular of the
> lot
> > and has a small vocabulary as languages go, so these translation programs
> > should be somewhat useful in dealing with Latin. We also offer Latin
> courses
> > for those unfortunate enough to have missed them during their academic
> > careers, with the caveat that work is involved, and so is time.
> >
> > Vale bene,
> >
> > Cato
> >
> > Vale, et valete.
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86696 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica Q. Caecilio Metello quiritibus bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
>
>
>
> Q Caecilius Metellus A Tulliae Scholasticae L Cornelio Sullae in foro
> s.d.
>
> I believe Scholastica is, quite pointedly, very much correct that Latin
> has been specially designated in the edict.
>
> ATS: Indeed it has. It is the ONLY language mentioned which has been
> singled out for mandatory translation.
>
>
> Paragraph 6 of the edict
> rather specifically states "... all *Latin* text ..." and "... "those
> less familiar with *Latin* ..." (my emphasis in both cases).
>
> Albeit not the concern I was raising in my original post, I do concur
> that there has to be some question about pushing English over Latin in
> a Roman organisation. I don't disagree that there is no small number
> of citizens that do not know Latin, however nothing prevents any such
> citizen from asking for a translation, if desired. For a Roman
> organisation, though, it seems to me that perhaps we should be pushing
> Latin (certainly not jamming it down anyone's throat, but encouraging
> it, at least) over English, if not over all other languages.
>
> ATS: Indeed, and if we wish to appear even slightly appealing to
> classicists or other academics in related fields, it would in fact be wise to
> promote Latin even more intensely, not shoot down those who can communicate in
> it.
>
> So let me reiterate, or perhaps clarify, my concern: if the enforcement
> of those provisions of the edict I noted includes moderation of
> citizens, it would run counter to the provisions of the lex
> constitutiua. So I would like some clarification by the praetores and,
> if necessary, reconsideration of their edict.
>
>
> ATS: That would be useful, but I think that an amendment of this
> provision is also in order. In general, Metelle, you seem to understand my
> points quite well, but that could not be said of the first respondent to my
> letter. Very definitely I do not see persecutors of Latin behind every tree;
> in fact there are many trees I can see from my window which have nobody in the
> vicinity. ;-) Maybe Cato can see some such folk in NYC (if there are any
> trees in the concrete jungle in which he resides; I seem to recall he found
> some a few years back). However, when someone writes a text in which Latin is
> the sole language named which must be translated into English, when posts are
> deleted merely for being written in Latin, when every time that someone writes
> in Latin he or she is chastised, one may justifiably consider that Latin is
> unwelcome in this Roman-based organization. That is NOT the way to gain
> academic credibility, but some cannot see things from any external perspective
> and are concerned solely with the fact that they, themselves, cannot read
> Latin and are angry / upset / whatever because someone has dared to use that
> language in public.
>
> Vale, et valete.
>
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86697 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Cn Iulius Caesar consul C. Equitio Catoni consulari sal.

Yes, I am well aware I have the power to interpret the law, but that is only half the battle. The practicalities of deciding whether a post from a magistrate is official or in the course of the business of central government is going to be a very hit and miss affair. Having credibility in explaining the rationale used isn’t something a lex can endower you with. As to what the citizens should be concerned with, well personally reading a discourse between two magistrates might be pretty much up at the top of the list.

Again it all comes back to the Constitution. You and I have always held that the latter has no interpretative clause, and indeed the lex Arminia Equitia does not specify that the Consuls can interpret the Constitution, and since if they can now according to you why on earth have you always said they couldn’t? In fact the lex Arminia does not even define law. We may think we know what it means in the context of Nova Roman law, but there is no authoritative definition. Does “law” include the Constitution? Can a lex under I.B of the Constitution empower magistrates to interpret the higher authority? All good questions.

A literal dictionary definition of “content”, which is all the Constitution says should not be restricted and a method you and I have always advocated for in interpreting that document, states:

Usually, contents.
a.
something that is contained: the contents of a box.
b.
the subjects or topics covered in a book or document.
c.
the chapters or other formal divisions of a book or document: a table of contents.
2.
something that is to be expressed through some medium, as speech, writing, or any of various arts: a poetic form adequate to a poetic content.
3.
significance or profundity; meaning: a clever play that lacks content.
4.
substantive information or creative material viewed in contrast to its actual or potential manner of presentation:publishers, record companies, and other content providers; a flashy Web site, but without much content.

I could easily make a case, as no doubt you will do to the opposite, that “content” means the thoughts expressed with the post. Anyway as usual, here we go again, stuck in an issue over the Constitution, and what it does and doesn’t say. If you and I actually got paid by the word at a reasonable rate, the amount we have written on that document might, after nearly 8 years, have purchased us each a mid-range car (or in your case a life time’s supply of cookies, as you don’t need a car).

Just when you think things might change – they actually stay the same.

Optime vale.


From: Cato
Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2012 4:59 PM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE ROMAE (AKA MAIN LIST OR ML)


Cato Q. Caecilio Metello Pstumiano Pio sal.

Precisely. Although the consul may disagree to some extent, the *only* reason the State may restrict speech is if they can show a "clear and imminent threat" to the State. The burden of proof lies with the State, *not* with the citizen, and any action taken before such imminent and clear threat is shown is a violation of a Constitutional right.

The consul may be right in that there is no clear, written process by which something may be defined as a "clear and imminent danger", but that is neither the responsibility nor the concern of the citizens, nor should it be, and nor should the *lack* thereof be used as an excuse for allowing it to not be upheld in some manner.

I would disagree that it is necessarily impossible to define, however, in that the lex Arminia Equitia specifically gives to the consuls the authority to interpret the law at every level and on all subjects, without exception, so he has within himself the authority to do so.

Not providing an English translation of a Latin text does not, on the face of it, present a "clear and imminent" danger to the Respublica, and should not be considered to do so unless the consul(s) decide that it does *or* the praetors can *prove* that it does.

I am particularly interested in this as I often include Latin texts in the calendar postings, and some are not translated into English. Would that be cause to moderate me?

Vale bene,

Cato





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86698 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2012-01-08
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
C. Petronius Q. Metello s.p.d.,

> I was composing my response to Scholastica when your response was
> received; perhaps I did not fully explain myself well in my original
> statement. My concern is not that the provisions themselves restrict
> or deny a citizen the right to participate in the Forum; my concern is
> that the enforcement of those provisions may include such restriction
> (by means of moderation), which would be in violation of the quoted
> portion of the lex constitutiua.

"would be"... That is not sure, so.

> If, then, you and your colleague would be so kind as to clarify how you intend to enforce said provisions, I believe the question can be
quickly resolved, much as I would greatly appreciate.

English is the official language of Nova Roma according the law Cornelia, and the custom used on the ML from its beginning (mos maiorum)even if the use of the Latin has all my endorsement. So, to prevent any problem the point 6 is only statuing that the posts written in Latin must be accompanied by an English translation.

So, due your reactions, I think that this point 6 only focused on the Latin is subject to a discrimation towards this language, when all foreign languages are in the same case, id est to be accompanied with an English translation. Posting in English or at least with English translation is the law, is not it?

Optime vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
a. d. V Idus Ianuarias Cn. Caesare C. Tullio coss.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86699 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
C. Petronius Q. Metello s.p.d.,

>>> My primary disagreement and specific concern is simply that, if a citizen is prevented from communicating in this forum on cause of having failed to provide an English translation to their statements, such would, in my view, be a violation of that citizen's right under the lex constitutiua. My concern is not specific to the post being in Latin, though the edict gives this specification.<<<

The goal of a such list is to have exchanges, so to be understood and to understand. From the beginning English is the language used by all citizens on this forum, I also make this effort. Because it is obvious that we have to speak between us in a understandable way. This way is the use of the English language.

If a post in a foreign language is not accompanied by an English translation the problem to moderate rises. Remember myself ordering by my predecessor to translate in English the famous proverb: "Mieux vaut tard que jamais." I was not in Nova Roma when the law Cornelia was voted nor when English became by custom or by default the language of the ML. But as praetor I have to make the laws respected in this Forum.

Now, the moderation is the moderation. It begins with warnings but not ends with the stake. :o) And even applicated after an edict, it is submitt to the process of the laws, it does not prevent from communicating any citizen only like that. And you know that.

The goal of this edict, is to give to the citizens a good standing communication ground.

Optime vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Praetor Arcoiali scribebat
a. d. V Idus Ianuarias Cn. Caesare C. Tullio coss.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86700 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: De Latina lingua
C. Petronius dexter praetor omnibus Quiritibus salutem,

I remind you, if among you is someone not able to translate in English his Latin thoughts, that exists a list for writing in Latin.

Nova-Roma-Latina@yahoogroups.com

It is not very active, its posts since 365 to 375 for 10 months are the same invite sent by a robot, so you are welcome to unscribe in.

Optime valete.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
a. d. V Idus Ianuarias Cn. Caesare C. Tullio coss.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86701 From: L. Lucretius Caupo Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Caupo Dextro omnibusque in foro S.P.D.



I think your final paragraph is absolutely correct. Praetor. There is no need to single out Latin at all in your Edictum, because it is a language like any other. It is enough to point out that all official communications need to include an English translation. That is all that is needed.



In any NON-official communications, however, it is my understanding that cives are free to communicate in whatever language they feel most comfortable. We are an international people. IF a Nova Roman knows English reasonably well as a second language, it would be a KIND gesture to include an English translation in their communication, and this is encouraged wherever possible, but the law does NOT require it. Yes, Latin is not generally spoken in the world, but let’s use an example: If someone from Pannonia, who knows ONLY Hungarian and Latin, wants to post in the Main Forum using Latin, surely there is no objection to that.



I would urge the Praetors to:

1. Simply remove any reference to Latin from their Edict.

2. Make it clear that the English requirement applies only to official communications.



Thank you for allowing me to add my viewpoint to the rest of the demonstrators in the Forum :o)



Vale et Valete,



L·LVCRETIVS·CAVPO򮴨















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86702 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: De Latina lingua
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica C. Petronio Dextro quiritibus bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
>
>
>
> C. Petronius dexter praetor omnibus Quiritibus salutem,
>
> I remind you, if among you is someone not able to translate in English his
> Latin thoughts, that exists a list for writing in Latin.
>
> Nova-Roma-Latina@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Nova-Roma-Latina%40yahoogroups.com>
>
> It is not very active, its posts since 365 to 375 for 10 months are the same
> invite sent by a robot, so you are welcome to unscribe in.
>
> ATS: A fair number of the members of that list are not citizens, have
> never been citizens, and are unlikely to want to become citizens. As is the
> case with some of our other lists, the members are sitting around waiting for
> someone else to write some pearls of wisdom, but if someone does, then some
> will complain that they can¹t read so many messages a day, as has happened
> with the ML when a whole four posts per day appeared. Moreover, there is
> absolutely NO reason why Latin should be shut up in a ghetto, or be compelled
> to be translated. Conditions in early NR were very different from those
> today; not only were there no translation programs, there were few, if any,
> Latinists. A quick look at the horrible attempts at Latin in the law titles,
> magisterial titles, and many other such things will quickly prove to anyone
> who knows Latin that we were a laughingstock for that reason. Now there are
> several competent Latinists here who might like to practice their Latin on the
> citizenry and provide a good example to them; there is no reason to shut us up
> in some sort of linguistic shtetl.
>
> As was the case when I responded in Latin to a new citizen from Hungary
> who had written in Latin, there is no reason why such messages should be
> forbidden, forcibly translated, or deleted. In that instance, the message was
> directed to the tiro, not the world at large, and did not concern others.
> These communications between citizens are not official, and should not require
> any translation. Latin is the common language of many, and we should be
> allowed to post in untranslated Latin if we choose. There should be no shame
> in so doing, and no rebuke, either. I note that you, Petroni, post to the
> Grex with some frequency; that is a wholly separate entity, which has several
> present and past Roman citizens among its membership, but which does not deal
> with contact between citizens per se. Laws made for a different set of
> conditions are irrelevant; the Romans made new ones, but some among us prefer
> to do away with laws altogether, and cannot be bothered to learn languages.
> No sensible person should cater to these boneheads.
>
>
>
> Optime valete.
>
> C. Petronius Dexter
> Arcoiali scribebat
> 1. d. V Idus Ianuarias Cn. Caesare C. Tullio coss.

Optime valete.
>
>
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86703 From: L. Lucretius Caupo Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: De Latina lingua
Caupo Quiritibus Omnibus S.P.D.



I support Censor Scholastica's well articulated position!



We could all bring some fun back into Nova Roma, learning a hilarious
expression or two. And those of us who are not linguistically inclined would
surely not begrudge those Romans who do enjoy some banter in the Forum.
Machine translations, imperfect as they are, do provide clues - here's a
link: http://www.stars21.com/translator/latin_to_english.html.



A little humor, folks. The best part of the Asterix comics always was that
they were peppered with Latin expressions, such as when Caesar is frequently
heard to exclaim, "Alea iacta est!" (I can't remember if it was accompanied
by translation :-)



Valete, et die dulci fruere,



L.LVCRETIVS.CAVPO



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86704 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Cato Caesari consulis sal.

I agree that the content of a post may be considered when thinking of "clear and imminent danger", absolutely. I also agree that the Constitution itself offers us no help when it comes to the question of interpreting itself. As you point out, we have run up against this wall countless times.

However, the lex Arminia does not single out the Constitution as the exception to the rule; it makes no distinction in levels of legal authority at all. I contend that you, by your imperium, have the authority to interpret it - it is, after all, *a* level of law within the Respublica. Since your imperium covers *all* levels of law, the Constitution is not excepted.

I believe that Mariuns introduced the lex (under his colleague's name) specifically to answer the question of interpretation.

In ancient Rome, since there was no concept of an over-arching, objective law per se, that was the reason that each year's consuls had to decide how they were going to interpret any given law (and why we require each magistrate to confirm the edicta of their predecessors or let them expire) - even if their interpretation of that law was in direct contradiction to their predecessor's.

During my consulship, I interpreted the lex Arminia to include the Constitution. You may or may not. It is in your hands entirely, as it is your consulship. That is the Roman approach :)

Vale bene,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86705 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: De Latina lingua
C. Petronius Tulliae Scholasticae s.p.d.,

Latin in a ghetto? Forbidden to write in Latin?
Where did you read that?

The point 6 of the edict just asked to put an English translation with the Latin text. Because every citizen has the right to understand what it is posted and English language, according to the law and the custom, is the common language used in the ML.

I focused on the Latin, because I am interested to make the Latin more present in the ML posts. Then, if we want to use Latin more often on the ML, it is deserving to translate it into English.

And I am sure that you may do it.

Optime vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
a. d. V Idus Ianuarias Cn. Caesare C. Tullio coss.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86706 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: De Latina lingua
Ave!

She read it between the lines of course...I wonder if that is also another
language she teaches? If so, I think we all should sign up to develop that
much needed skill set! ;)

Yes that is a joke everyone...well kinda! lol

Vale,

Sulla

On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 11:44 AM, petronius_dexter <jfarnoud94@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> C. Petronius Tulliae Scholasticae s.p.d.,
>
> Latin in a ghetto? Forbidden to write in Latin?
> Where did you read that?
>
> The point 6 of the edict just asked to put an English translation with the
> Latin text. Because every citizen has the right to understand what it is
> posted and English language, according to the law and the custom, is the
> common language used in the ML.
>
> I focused on the Latin, because I am interested to make the Latin more
> present in the ML posts. Then, if we want to use Latin more often on the
> ML, it is deserving to translate it into English.
>
> And I am sure that you may do it.
>
> Optime vale.
>
> C. Petronius Dexter
> Arcoiali scribebat
> a. d. V Idus Ianuarias Cn. Caesare C. Tullio coss.
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86707 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: De Latina lingua
C. Petronius Dexter L. Lucretio Cauponi s.p.d.,

> I support Censor Scholastica's well articulated position!

What articulated position do you support? In what measure an English translation whith the Latin text is controversal, when it follows the law, it respects the comprehension of everybody and adds a touch of courtesy?

Optime vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
a. d. V Idus Ianuarias Cn. Caesare C. Tullio coss.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86708 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
C. Petronius Dexter L. Lucretio Cauponi s.p.d.,

> I think your final paragraph is absolutely correct. Praetor.

Thank you, very much.

> There is no need to single out Latin at all in your Edictum, because it is a language like any other.

It is not. Latin is the religious language of Nova Roma and I want to promote it into the ML. So, we have to use it with all the respect of our citizens. It is more deserving to use it with English translation.

>>> It is enough to point out that all official communications need to include an English translation. That is all that is needed.<<<

> In any NON-official communications, however, it is my understanding that cives are free to communicate in whatever language they feel most comfortable.

The edict was about the ML not about the private communications.

> We are an international people.

And everybody communicates in English on the Main List.

> IF a Nova Roman knows English reasonably well as a second language, it would be a KIND gesture to include an English translation in their communication, and this is encouraged wherever possible, but the law does NOT require it.<

The understanding requires it. When you write in the main list, you write to be understood.

> Yes, Latin is not generally spoken in the world, but let's use an example: If someone from Pannonia, who knows ONLY Hungarian and Latin, wants to post in the Main Forum using Latin, surely there is no objection to that.<

Lol. And what about a Chinese knowing only the Chinese and the Japonese?

Optime vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
a. d. V Idus Ianuarias Cn. Caesare C. Tullio coss.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86709 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Caesar Catoni sal.
 
Since I have always maintained that the Consitution cannot be interpeted, a position I, you, Cordus, and many others have long cleaved to, I am not about to start interpreting it now becuase it might be convient to do so because I am consul.
 
Besides, the interpretation of it, even if I was convinced it was legally correct to so interpret, which I am not, wouldn't practically have the value of a basket of rotting fish, for the simple reason that the tribunes are not bound by a consular interpretation. Again the Constituion is woefully inadequate as it states that the tribunes can adminster the law. This point was raised before. The literal definition of administer does NOT include interpretation. Some seem to think you need to interpret the law to administer it, but actually all you have to do is to apply it. The cold hard definition. However that is not the custom here in Nova Roma.
 
So, by custom and a lack of finitie definition in the Constitution, the tribunes could in effect say "thank you very much consul for the definition, but we take a different position". The tribunes are highly unlikely, I think, to accept a magistrate's definition of a contentious section of law or the Constitution, and thereby put the question of whether they pronounce intercessio in my hands, for if I were to interpret the Constitution in the way the unofficial summary of my thoughts do date on this has been leading, then "content" would not include the language it is written in. Why in these circumstances would I, even if I thought I "could", waste my time on an interpretation that serves no practical purpose?
 
Of course the obvious answer to this issue has actually, in my opinion, been provided by yourself. You asked for proof. Well, if "content" includes the language the content is written in, then we should be able to susbtitute in a test "language" for "content". Some say the use of Latin can never be a clear and imminent danger, in which case logically that section was never aimed at a language causing a danger, but the content of it. Therefore all that should be unrestricted is content not causing a clear and imment danger, but excluding such all embracing protection for the language.
 
If one takes the opposite view that using Latin without a translation might cause a clear and imminent danger if for example it contained threats of violence, or to make false claims that Nova Roma was seeking to plan acts of violence then untranslated Latin could lead to a clear and imminent danger. Is it "proof" that in order to discharge a function of the state, moderation of this forum, the praetors - now, in the future (edict or not) should be able to understand the content posted? How can they discharge their functions under Yahoo! ToS if they personally have no clue what is being posted? Translators online produce gobbledegook most of the time, and sometimes in cases of threats for example, one doesn't have the luxury to wait for a translator to respond to the post. Is this "proof" that untranslated Latin could cause a clear and imminent danger? What defines "proof"?
 
Either language isn't included in content in which case it gets no protection, or if it is then one has to be able to understand the content to make a value judgement whether there is a clear and imminent danger - and the clause in the edict is a reasonable requirment.
 
The bottom line, for me, is yes this is an actual or potential storm in a teacup, no I am not interpreting the Constitution, no I do not think a language as opposed to the content of that language has the protection of the Constitution, yes I do think this is silly, yes I am sure it has the potential to be inflated into the latest crisis, and yes - I need a cup of tea already over this.
 
Optime vale
 
 

From: Cato <catoinnyc@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 9, 2012 11:15 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE ROMAE (AKA MAIN LIST OR ML)


 
Cato Caesari consulis sal.

I agree that the content of a post may be considered when thinking of "clear and imminent danger", absolutely. I also agree that the Constitution itself offers us no help when it comes to the question of interpreting itself. As you point out, we have run up against this wall countless times.

However, the lex Arminia does not single out the Constitution as the exception to the rule; it makes no distinction in levels of legal authority at all. I contend that you, by your imperium, have the authority to interpret it - it is, after all, *a* level of law within the Respublica. Since your imperium covers *all* levels of law, the Constitution is not excepted.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86710 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Dexter Cauponi s.p.d.,

>>> I think your final paragraph is absolutely correct. Praetor. There is no need to single out Latin at all in your Edictum, because it is a language like any other. It is enough to point out that all official communications need to include an English translation. That is all that is needed.<<<

I do not think that it is all that is needed. If someone writes obscenities or name callings in Latin, sure to not be understood, may praetores accept the post in the ML?

>>>use an example: If someone from Pannonia, who knows ONLY Hungarian and Latin, wants to post in the Main Forum using Latin, surely there is no objection to that.<<<

If someone writes obscenities or name callings in Hungarian, sure to not be understood, may praetores accept the post in the ML by ignorance?

Optime vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
a. d. V Idus Ianuarias Cn. Caesare C. Tullio coss.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86711 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
C. Petronius Dexter Cn. Iulio Caesari salutem,

>>> The bottom line, for me, is yes this is an actual or potential storm in a teacup, no I am not interpreting the Constitution, no I do not think a language as opposed to the content of that language has the protection of the Constitution, yes I do think this is silly, yes I am sure it has the potential to be inflated into the latest crisis, and yes - I need a cup of tea already over this.<<<

Have you one more for myself?

Optime vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
a. d. V Idus Ianuarias Cn. Caesare C. Tullio coss.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86712 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Caesar Dextro sal.
 
Yes - I'll send you a box - we will need it.
 
However if the language on the box is in Cree, or Inuit (Native languages in Canada) you will just have to accept it and drink it. You cannot refuse to do so as there is no clear an imminent danger, even if it is wrtten POISON! DO NOT DRINK! You might not understand that but you may offend my freedoms if you just don't drink it all up <lol> ;) I can't provide a translation ... sorry  ;)
 
Optime vale.

From: petronius_dexter <jfarnoud94@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 9, 2012 1:13 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE ROMAE (AKA MAIN LIST OR ML)


 
C. Petronius Dexter Cn. Iulio Caesari salutem,

>>> The bottom line, for me, is yes this is an actual or potential storm in a teacup, no I am not interpreting the Constitution, no I do not think a language as opposed to the content of that language has the protection of the Constitution, yes I do think this is silly, yes I am sure it has the potential to be inflated into the latest crisis, and yes - I need a cup of tea already over this.<<<

Have you one more for myself?

Optime vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
a. d. V Idus Ianuarias Cn. Caesare C. Tullio coss.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86713 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Cato Caesari consulis sal.

To be fair, it should be noted that (among others) Cordus believed that we did not have a mechanism for Constitutional interpretation *before* the lex Arminia was passed.

The stuff about language/content is a red herring, however, because the point is that a citizen writing in, say, Latin, is not presenting a "clear and imminent danger" to the Respublica, and that is what the Constitution is protecting - the right of a citizen to speak freely barring that circumstance.

In order for it to be shown that doing so is a "clear and imminent danger", either a lex describing exactly what constitutes a clear and imminent danger is must be passed *or* a magistrate with the authority to do so must define it as such.

Until such time, a citizen may write whatever they want in whatever language they want.

That being said, you don't have to interpret anything if you don't want to :)

Vale bene,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86714 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Ave,

I am reminded of someone who...uses Latin in this manner....the name
escapes me... someone who writes most of HER posts in English..and then
will drift to Latin to try to get a sly insult in......I am puzzled who
that person might be......OH YEAH...I remember...its our keeper of
Victorian Morals....Scholastica.

Vale,

Sulla

On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 1:04 PM, petronius_dexter <jfarnoud94@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> Dexter Cauponi s.p.d.,
>
>
> >>> I think your final paragraph is absolutely correct. Praetor. There is
> no need to single out Latin at all in your Edictum, because it is a
> language like any other. It is enough to point out that all official
> communications need to include an English translation. That is all that is
> needed.<<<
>
> I do not think that it is all that is needed. If someone writes
> obscenities or name callings in Latin, sure to not be understood, may
> praetores accept the post in the ML?
>
>
> >>>use an example: If someone from Pannonia, who knows ONLY Hungarian and
> Latin, wants to post in the Main Forum using Latin, surely there is no
> objection to that.<<<
>
> If someone writes obscenities or name callings in Hungarian, sure to not
> be understood, may praetores accept the post in the ML by ignorance?
>
>
> Optime vale.
>
> C. Petronius Dexter
> Arcoiali scribebat
> a. d. V Idus Ianuarias Cn. Caesare C. Tullio coss.
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86715 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
C. Petronius Cn. Caesari consuli s.p.d.,

>>> However if the language on the box is in Cree, or Inuit (Native languages in Canada) you will just have to accept it and drink it. You cannot refuse to do so as there is no clear an imminent danger, even if it is wrtten POISON! DO NOT DRINK! You might not understand that but you may offend my freedoms if you just don't drink it all up <lol> ;) I can't provide a translation ... sorry  ;)<<<

I think that ignorance is not enough before a judge if the TOS is not respected. Imagine someone using Cree, Inuit or Latin to write something not allowed by the ToS, I suppose that the praetores are responsible before the law and to argue the ignorance do not could be a sufficient reason to have left put on the list a difamatory post in what language you like.

Where is the problem to have Latin posts accompanied by their English translation? In what measure that limits the free speech?

Optime vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
a. d. V Idus Ianuarias Cn. Caesare C. Tullio coss.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86716 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Ave Praetor,

The answer is OBVIOUS! It means that it will take the sender of the
message an extra few minutes to type up the Latin correspondence into
English. Or better yet, it will prevent Scholastica from using Latin as a
sly weapon to insult those members of NR who do not have Latin!

In other words they will either have to grow a pair or lose a few minutes
of their life!

Vale,

Sulla

On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 1:55 PM, petronius_dexter <jfarnoud94@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> C. Petronius Cn. Caesari consuli s.p.d.,
>
> >>> However if the language on the box is in Cree, or Inuit (Native
> languages in Canada) you will just have to accept it and drink it. You
> cannot refuse to do so as there is no clear an imminent danger, even if it
> is wrtten POISON! DO NOT DRINK! You might not understand that but you may
> offend my freedoms if you just don't drink it all up <lol> ;) I can't
> provide a translation ... sorry� ;)<<<
>
> I think that ignorance is not enough before a judge if the TOS is not
> respected. Imagine someone using Cree, Inuit or Latin to write something
> not allowed by the ToS, I suppose that the praetores are responsible before
> the law and to argue the ignorance do not could be a sufficient reason to
> have left put on the list a difamatory post in what language you like.
>
> Where is the problem to have Latin posts accompanied by their English
> translation? In what measure that limits the free speech?
>
> Optime vale.
>
> C. Petronius Dexter
> Arcoiali scribebat
> a. d. V Idus Ianuarias Cn. Caesare C. Tullio coss.
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86717 From: Belle Morte Statia Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Sta. Cornelia Aeternia L. Cornelio Sullae Omnibusque S.P.D.


Sulla enough please. I don't think Scholastica's moral outlook is actually
relevant to this thread, although could be my opinion only albeit.

I am sure in the future the Magistra will most happily comply and will
include English translations in her posts when there is Latin spruced in
her posts, it would be teaching exercise if nothing more.


Seriously there have been some excellent points brought out in this
discussion by many individuals. I will try to keep this brief as possible.

This is to me also considered "a tempest in the teacup" (this phrase is
getting used quite a bit here) however I do thank Metellus for pointing out
this small oversight and posting his concerns. And we as Praetors should
not overlook that, because if this was brought up once it can most
certainly be brought up again, and I do not know the feelings on my
colleague about this, but spending the next 357 days on hashing out one
Moderation Edict to me is why not we were elected.

Perhaps we should seriously consider a small revision to the Edict my
fellow colleague, so that if nothing more, this issue is not brought up
again, it will also demonstrate that we as Praetors do take the concerns of
the people seriously no matter how small a teacup it may appear to be.

Plus this may have started out as a small "tea cup" but looks like the size
of the mug is getting bigger.

Vale Optime,
Statia Cornelia Aeternia
Praetrix


"*Feri pastorem, et oves se dispergent*"


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86718 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Ave!

I disagree with you Praetor, if for no other reason that as I said on the
BA that it is absolutely ChickenS&^$ for someone to willingly use a
language to insult someone who does not have fluency with that language. I
think an individual who does that is nothing more than a coward. I don't
go around using Hebrew as a means to insult individuals on the ML as a
means of sneaking one under the radar. Yet our new Censor has done
precisely that. And she got smacked around by our Iunior Consul in our
living room once when she did that! Now, she wonders why Latin might be
persecuted? Maybe she should try to look more inward in regards to her own
past actions, which is my point. A point that I am making in a rather
abrasive and boorish manner, kinda like the person I am speaking about!

Personally I have no problem with the edict.

Respectfully,

Sulla

On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 2:13 PM, Belle Morte Statia
<syrenslullaby@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> Sta. Cornelia Aeternia L. Cornelio Sullae Omnibusque S.P.D.
>
> Sulla enough please. I don't think Scholastica's moral outlook is actually
> relevant to this thread, although could be my opinion only albeit.
>
> I am sure in the future the Magistra will most happily comply and will
> include English translations in her posts when there is Latin spruced in
> her posts, it would be teaching exercise if nothing more.
>
> Seriously there have been some excellent points brought out in this
> discussion by many individuals. I will try to keep this brief as possible.
>
> This is to me also considered "a tempest in the teacup" (this phrase is
> getting used quite a bit here) however I do thank Metellus for pointing out
> this small oversight and posting his concerns. And we as Praetors should
> not overlook that, because if this was brought up once it can most
> certainly be brought up again, and I do not know the feelings on my
> colleague about this, but spending the next 357 days on hashing out one
> Moderation Edict to me is why not we were elected.
>
> Perhaps we should seriously consider a small revision to the Edict my
> fellow colleague, so that if nothing more, this issue is not brought up
> again, it will also demonstrate that we as Praetors do take the concerns of
> the people seriously no matter how small a teacup it may appear to be.
>
> Plus this may have started out as a small "tea cup" but looks like the size
> of the mug is getting bigger.
>
> Vale Optime,
> Statia Cornelia Aeternia
> Praetrix
>
> "*Feri pastorem, et oves se dispergent*"
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86719 From: Belle Morte Statia Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Salve et Salvete,

I do understand where you are coming from Senator, no seriously I really
do. And I agree with you it is rather tacky to do such a tactic. However
I am looking at this from the perspective of "moving forward", Scholastica
will now be required to provide an English translation for all of her posts
that has Latin spruced in it. That means *everything* that is latin must
accompany an English translation , as I said in my earlier post this would
be a great teaching exercise for those who are not as fluent in Latin. To
see from the Master herself how this is done :-).

We copasetic now?

Vale et Valete bene,
Statia Cornelia Aeternia




On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 2:21 PM, Robert Woolwine
<robert.woolwine@...>wrote:

> Ave!
>
> I disagree with you Praetor, if for no other reason that as I said on the
> BA that it is absolutely ChickenS&^$ for someone to willingly use a
> language to insult someone who does not have fluency with that language. I
> think an individual who does that is nothing more than a coward. I don't
> go around using Hebrew as a means to insult individuals on the ML as a
> means of sneaking one under the radar. Yet our new Censor has done
> precisely that. And she got smacked around by our Iunior Consul in our
> living room once when she did that! Now, she wonders why Latin might be
> persecuted? Maybe she should try to look more inward in regards to her own
> past actions, which is my point. A point that I am making in a rather
> abrasive and boorish manner, kinda like the person I am speaking about!
>
> Personally I have no problem with the edict.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Sulla
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86720 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Ave!

And I am perfectly fine with that. This is why I support the edict as it
is written.

Respectfully,

Sulla

On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 2:27 PM, Belle Morte Statia
<syrenslullaby@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> Salve et Salvete,
>
> I do understand where you are coming from Senator, no seriously I really
> do. And I agree with you it is rather tacky to do such a tactic. However
> I am looking at this from the perspective of "moving forward", Scholastica
> will now be required to provide an English translation for all of her posts
> that has Latin spruced in it. That means *everything* that is latin must
> accompany an English translation , as I said in my earlier post this would
> be a great teaching exercise for those who are not as fluent in Latin. To
> see from the Master herself how this is done :-).
>
> We copasetic now?
>
> Vale et Valete bene,
> Statia Cornelia Aeternia
>
> On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 2:21 PM, Robert Woolwine
> <robert.woolwine@...>wrote:
>
>
> > Ave!
> >
> > I disagree with you Praetor, if for no other reason that as I said on the
> > BA that it is absolutely ChickenS&^$ for someone to willingly use a
> > language to insult someone who does not have fluency with that language.
> I
> > think an individual who does that is nothing more than a coward. I don't
> > go around using Hebrew as a means to insult individuals on the ML as a
> > means of sneaking one under the radar. Yet our new Censor has done
> > precisely that. And she got smacked around by our Iunior Consul in our
> > living room once when she did that! Now, she wonders why Latin might be
> > persecuted? Maybe she should try to look more inward in regards to her
> own
> > past actions, which is my point. A point that I am making in a rather
> > abrasive and boorish manner, kinda like the person I am speaking about!
> >
> > Personally I have no problem with the edict.
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> > Sulla
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86721 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Cato Sullae sal.

I agree with you ENTIRELY Sulla that it is the height of "chicken***"-ness to insult someone in a language they do not understand.

However, it is not *illegal* to do it, and it should not be.

Vale,

cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robert Woolwine <robert.woolwine@...> wrote:
>
> Ave!
>
> I disagree with you Praetor, if for no other reason that as I said on the
> BA that it is absolutely ChickenS&^$ for someone to willingly use a
> language to insult someone who does not have fluency with that language. I
> think an individual who does that is nothing more than a coward. I don't
> go around using Hebrew as a means to insult individuals on the ML as a
> means of sneaking one under the radar. Yet our new Censor has done
> precisely that. And she got smacked around by our Iunior Consul in our
> living room once when she did that! Now, she wonders why Latin might be
> persecuted? Maybe she should try to look more inward in regards to her own
> past actions, which is my point. A point that I am making in a rather
> abrasive and boorish manner, kinda like the person I am speaking about!
>
> Personally I have no problem with the edict.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Sulla
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86722 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Ave!

I understand you disagree with me about it not being illegal...in a perfect
world I would agree but realistically, we do not have Praetors who are
fluent in many of the worlds languages. By requiring the translation we
can ensure that the Preators are able to moderate the ML in a manner where
any issue that might be a clear and imminent danger may be quickly assessed
and dealt with. Again, another reason why I support the edict as written.
It simply ensures the Praetors are able to do their jobs.

Respectfully,

Sulla

On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 2:33 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Cato Sullae sal.
>
> I agree with you ENTIRELY Sulla that it is the height of "chicken***"-ness
> to insult someone in a language they do not understand.
>
> However, it is not *illegal* to do it, and it should not be.
>
> Vale,
>
> cato
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robert Woolwine <robert.woolwine@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Ave!
> >
> > I disagree with you Praetor, if for no other reason that as I said on the
> > BA that it is absolutely ChickenS&^$ for someone to willingly use a
> > language to insult someone who does not have fluency with that language.
> I
> > think an individual who does that is nothing more than a coward. I don't
> > go around using Hebrew as a means to insult individuals on the ML as a
> > means of sneaking one under the radar. Yet our new Censor has done
> > precisely that. And she got smacked around by our Iunior Consul in our
> > living room once when she did that! Now, she wonders why Latin might be
> > persecuted? Maybe she should try to look more inward in regards to her
> own
> > past actions, which is my point. A point that I am making in a rather
> > abrasive and boorish manner, kinda like the person I am speaking about!
> >
> > Personally I have no problem with the edict.
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> > Sulla
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86723 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Cn. Caesar consul C. Petronio praetori sal
 
In order to comply with Yahoo! Inc. ToS it is quite obvious that owners and moderators of a list have to be able to understand everything posted. It doesn't matter who the poster is. I agree with you completely. It potentially exposes us to a liability and regardless of all the yelling and screaming in the past, Yahoo! Inc. ToS are the terms that we operate here. They don't care about NR's laws or Constitution. If we use it we are bound by the terms and those terms carry a responsibility. This is a "state" forum and hus NR Inc. has potential liability if we put a bag over the heads of those charged with moderation - now or in the future. The point is we establish a precedent of willful blindness. If there is ever an issue from not being able to read a post, well naturally there could be consequences.
 
As to what the problem is? None in my personal opinion - absolutely none. Now all the "real" substantive issues have diminished it seems the addiction to finding any issue is strong - the NR equivalent of crack cocaine or meth, and it is free and only costs us all time. Wasted time in my opinion.
 
Optime vale

From: petronius_dexter <jfarnoud94@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 9, 2012 1:55 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE ROMAE (AKA MAIN LIST OR ML)


 
C. Petronius Cn. Caesari consuli s.p.d.,

>>> However if the language on the box is in Cree, or Inuit (Native languages in Canada) you will just have to accept it and drink it. You cannot refuse to do so as there is no clear an imminent danger, even if it is wrtten POISON! DO NOT DRINK! You might not understand that but you may offend my freedoms if you just don't drink it all up <lol> ;) I can't provide a translation ... sorry  ;)<<<

I think that ignorance is not enough before a judge if the TOS is not respected. Imagine someone using Cree, Inuit or Latin to write something not allowed by the ToS, I suppose that the praetores are responsible before

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86724 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Cato Sullae sal.

I fully respect the idea you're supporting - but it is not the responsibility of the People to make a magistrate's job easier. A magistrate is constrained by the law precisely so that he cannot simply do whatever he wants whenever he wants because it is "easier" - even if, in fact, it *is* easier.

The consul, the praetors, anyone may pass this off as a "tempest in a teacup" as a way of glossing over the concern or, unfortunately, belittling those who disagree with them. But the point is that this has been an issue repeatedly, and to pooh-pooh it off again is not going to make it go away.

The existence of the right of a citizen to speak freely is a vital question, even if it cannot be neatly answered and put into a box.

Vale bene,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robert Woolwine <robert.woolwine@...> wrote:
>
> Ave!
>
> I understand you disagree with me about it not being illegal...in a perfect
> world I would agree but realistically, we do not have Praetors who are
> fluent in many of the worlds languages. By requiring the translation we
> can ensure that the Preators are able to moderate the ML in a manner where
> any issue that might be a clear and imminent danger may be quickly assessed
> and dealt with. Again, another reason why I support the edict as written.
> It simply ensures the Praetors are able to do their jobs.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Sulla
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86725 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Cato Caesari consulis sal.

That is a completely fallacious argument, consul.

Vale bene,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Iulius Caesar <gn_iulius_caesar@...> wrote:
>
> Cn. Caesar consul C. Petronio praetori sal
>  
> In order to comply with Yahoo! Inc. ToS it is quite obvious that owners and moderators of a list have to be able to understand everything posted. It doesn't matter who the poster is. I agree with you completely. It potentially exposes us to a liability and regardless of all the yelling and screaming in the past, Yahoo! Inc. ToS are the terms that we operate here. They don't care about NR's laws or Constitution. If we use it we are bound by the terms and those terms carry a responsibility. This is a "state" forum and hus NR Inc. has potential liability if we put a bag over the heads of those charged with moderation - now or in the future. The point is we establish a precedent of willful blindness. If there is ever an issue from not being able to read a post, well naturally there could be consequences.
>  
> As to what the problem is? None in my personal opinion - absolutely none. Now all the "real" substantive issues have diminished it seems the addiction to finding any issue is strong - the NR equivalent of crack cocaine or meth, and it is free and only costs us all time. Wasted time in my opinion.
>  
> Optime vale
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86726 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
C. Petronius Corneliae Aeterniae sal.,

>>> That means *everything* that is latin must accompany an English translation , as I said in my earlier post this would be a great teaching exercise for those who are not as fluent in Latin. To
see from the Master herself how this is done :-).<<<

It may seem a paradox, but I believe that Latin posts with their English translations may give interest to our citizens for the Latin language more than Latin postswithout English translation and not understood.

Optime vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
a. d. V Idus Ianuarias Cn. Caesare C. Tullio coss.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86727 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Caesar Catoni sal.
 
No - it is called establishing a precedent. We operate here on the good graces of Yahoo! Inc. They have a ToS. NR Inc. treats this as a forum which is uses for its purposes. Seems pretty cut and dried to me that owners and moderators have to be able to read posts to know if they comply with that ToS. If we establish a precedent of willful blindness and something goes wrong, we can flap the section of the Constitution around as much as we want but there could well be liability. There are all sorts of examples of how liability could be said to be that of NR Inc. for permitting posts that its corporate representatives didn't understand and couldn't read.
 
It is only fallacious as you have forgotten how many times you availed yourself of the requirements of ToS/Maine etc. At least one no? More? I think so....
 
But hey, its a good sound-byte - all this issue over freedom of expression. Let's stick our head in the sand again and start quoting NR law and ignoring civil and who knows - criminal? liability.... Hmmm now I wonder who it was in NR that used to do that on a regular basis? Started with an "M" and ended in an "r"..... name escapes me.
 
Come on Cato - there are still real problems to be solved. Substantive ones, not one we had to inflate with a bicycle pump... not a mouse transformed into an elephant.
 
Optime vale.
 

From: Cato <catoinnyc@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 9, 2012 3:08 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE ROMAE (AKA MAIN LIST OR ML)


 
Cato Caesari consulis sal.

That is a completely fallacious argument, consul.

Vale bene,

Cato


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86728 From: Belle Morte Statia Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Sta. Cornelia Aeternia C. Petronio Dextro sal:


On this we're on the same wavelength but just on different viewpoints on
that wave, but with the same end results.

Vale Optime,
Statia Cornelia Aeternia


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86729 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Cato Petronio Dextero praetoris sal.

The issue of Latin's "value" should never have been introduced, and is another red herring; the point is that you are attempting to place a restriction of the right of a citizen to speak freely in the Forum in *whatever* language they want.

Just because Latin and English side by side may be a valuable *teaching tool* does not validate the restriction attempted.

Vale bene,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@...> wrote:
>
> C. Petronius Corneliae Aeterniae sal.,
>
> >>> That means *everything* that is latin must accompany an English translation , as I said in my earlier post this would be a great teaching exercise for those who are not as fluent in Latin. To
> see from the Master herself how this is done :-).<<<
>
> It may seem a paradox, but I believe that Latin posts with their English translations may give interest to our citizens for the Latin language more than Latin postswithout English translation and not understood.
>
> Optime vale.
>
> C. Petronius Dexter
> Arcoiali scribebat
> a. d. V Idus Ianuarias Cn. Caesare C. Tullio coss.
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86730 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Cato Caesari consulis sal.

One question and this whole thing can end: where in Yahoo!'s ToS does it support the idea that a moderator must be fluent in the language(s) of every subscriber to their List? Do you not think, consul, that Yahoo! might very well understand the consequences of international media and social networking?

Again, it's a fallacious argument.

Again, this issue is raised almost yearly. Not because people are stupid or ignorant or creating elephants out of mice. Because (almost) every year someone tries to do something unnecessary regarding curtailing the right of the citizens to speak in some way or other. Your own praetorship is the exception that proves the rule.

Just because this issue is not one with which you deal with in your plans for Nova Roma it is nonetheless an important one and worth the attention of our magistrates.

Vale bene,

Cato



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Iulius Caesar <gn_iulius_caesar@...> wrote:
>
> Caesar Catoni sal.
>  
> No - it is called establishing a precedent. We operate here on the good graces of Yahoo! Inc. They have a ToS. NR Inc. treats this as a forum which is uses for its purposes. Seems pretty cut and dried to me that owners and moderators have to be able to read posts to know if they comply with that ToS. If we establish a precedent of willful blindness and something goes wrong, we can flap the section of the Constitution around as much as we want but there could well be liability. There are all sorts of examples of how liability could be said to be that of NR Inc. for permitting posts that its corporate representatives didn't understand and couldn't read.
>  
> It is only fallacious as you have forgotten how many times you availed yourself of the requirements of ToS/Maine etc. At least one no? More? I think so....
>  
> But hey, its a good sound-byte - all this issue over freedom of expression. Let's stick our head in the sand again and start quoting NR law and ignoring civil and who knows - criminal? liability.... Hmmm now I wonder who it was in NR that used to do that on a regular basis? Started with an "M" and ended in an "r"..... name escapes me.
>  
> Come on Cato - there are still real problems to be solved. Substantive ones, not one we had to inflate with a bicycle pump... not a mouse transformed into an elephant.
>  
> Optime vale.
>  
>
> From: Cato <catoinnyc@...>
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, January 9, 2012 3:08 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE ROMAE (AKA MAIN LIST OR ML)
>
>
>  
> Cato Caesari consulis sal.
>
> That is a completely fallacious argument, consul.
>
> Vale bene,
>
> Cato
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86731 From: Belle Morte Statia Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Sta. Cornelia Aeternia C. Equitio Catoni C. Petronio Dextro sal:


Cato with no disrespect towards you, for you know I hold you in high
regard. Is it fair to those who do not understand Latin so well to be
perpetually confused? Is a request for a English translation that
difficult? I could understand better if say for example, Latin was
completely banned entirely, then yes that would be beyond unfair and
unjust. I think Dexter's attempt was to establish clearer channels of
communication for the Forum in general, not to restrict anyone's freedom of
speech.

However I do feel a small revision to the Edict should be made, so that
this issue is not raised again and we can move forward to making our
resrepublic a better place.


Vale Optime,
Aeternia

On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 3:27 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Cato Petronio Dextero praetoris sal.
>
> The issue of Latin's "value" should never have been introduced, and is
> another red herring; the point is that you are attempting to place a
> restriction of the right of a citizen to speak freely in the Forum in
> *whatever* language they want.
>
> Just because Latin and English side by side may be a valuable *teaching
> tool* does not validate the restriction attempted.
>
> Vale bene,
>
> Cato
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86732 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
C. Petronius Dexter C. Catoni salutem,

>>> The issue of Latin's "value" should never have been introduced, and is another red herring; the point is that you are attempting to place a restriction of the right of a citizen to speak freely in the Forum in *whatever* language they want.<<<

As praetor I have to follow and to make respected the ToS. I did not attempt the free speech, because I ask for an English translation. Do you really think that Q. Metellus and Tullia Scholastica cannot speak freely in the Forum in Latin, if they translate their Latin posts into English? It is certainly more easy for them than for me.

>>> Just because Latin and English side by side may be a valuable *teaching tool* does not validate the restriction attempted.<<<

One of the goal of Nova Roma is "to encourage classical studies and increase the usage of Latin among the citizens of Nova Roma" according the Law Arminia de fovenda lingua Latina. I am sure that goal more easy with Latin texts accompanied by English translation that Latin posts not understantable.

Optime vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
a. d. V Idus Ianuarias Cn. Caesare C. Tullio coss.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86733 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Ave!

This raises a good point, there are no NATIVE Latin speakers. Latin
speakers need to be fluent in some other language, French, Spanish, English
etc etc. I do not know of ANYONE who only speaks Latin and thusly would
be inconvenienced by the English translation requirement. And, in the end
that is what the result is, not a curtailing of rights, but at most a
minor inconvenience. And, guess what I have rights in the US that are
regularly inconvenienced all the time. For example, when I go buy a gun, I
have to go through a mandatory background check. In California, I had to
attend a hunter safety training class, yet per the Constitution of the US I
have a right to bear arms. If I want to organize a protest I must get
licenses and permits to have such protests, despite the Constitution
stating I have the right to free speech and express.

Inconvenience does not equal removing someone's rights. As long as the
venue is available, they can post in Esparanto, as long as an English
translation is provided!

Respectfully,

Sulla

On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 3:36 PM, Belle Morte Statia
<syrenslullaby@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> Sta. Cornelia Aeternia C. Equitio Catoni C. Petronio Dextro sal:
>
> Cato with no disrespect towards you, for you know I hold you in high
> regard. Is it fair to those who do not understand Latin so well to be
> perpetually confused? Is a request for a English translation that
> difficult? I could understand better if say for example, Latin was
> completely banned entirely, then yes that would be beyond unfair and
> unjust. I think Dexter's attempt was to establish clearer channels of
> communication for the Forum in general, not to restrict anyone's freedom of
> speech.
>
> However I do feel a small revision to the Edict should be made, so that
> this issue is not raised again and we can move forward to making our
> resrepublic a better place.
>
> Vale Optime,
> Aeternia
>
> On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 3:27 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> > **
>
> >
> >
> > Cato Petronio Dextero praetoris sal.
> >
> > The issue of Latin's "value" should never have been introduced, and is
> > another red herring; the point is that you are attempting to place a
> > restriction of the right of a citizen to speak freely in the Forum in
> > *whatever* language they want.
> >
> > Just because Latin and English side by side may be a valuable *teaching
> > tool* does not validate the restriction attempted.
> >
> > Vale bene,
> >
> > Cato
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86734 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Cato Corneliae Aeterniae praetoris sal.

No. To *request* a translation is not too much at all. To *demand* one is.

Vale bene,

Cato


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Belle Morte Statia <syrenslullaby@...> wrote:
>
> Sta. Cornelia Aeternia C. Equitio Catoni C. Petronio Dextro sal:
>
>
> Cato with no disrespect towards you, for you know I hold you in high
> regard. Is it fair to those who do not understand Latin so well to be
> perpetually confused? Is a request for a English translation that
> difficult? I could understand better if say for example, Latin was
> completely banned entirely, then yes that would be beyond unfair and
> unjust. I think Dexter's attempt was to establish clearer channels of
> communication for the Forum in general, not to restrict anyone's freedom of
> speech.
>
> However I do feel a small revision to the Edict should be made, so that
> this issue is not raised again and we can move forward to making our
> resrepublic a better place.
>
>
> Vale Optime,
> Aeternia
>
> On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 3:27 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Cato Petronio Dextero praetoris sal.
> >
> > The issue of Latin's "value" should never have been introduced, and is
> > another red herring; the point is that you are attempting to place a
> > restriction of the right of a citizen to speak freely in the Forum in
> > *whatever* language they want.
> >
> > Just because Latin and English side by side may be a valuable *teaching
> > tool* does not validate the restriction attempted.
> >
> > Vale bene,
> >
> > Cato
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86735 From: Belle Morte Statia Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Sta. Cornelia Aeternia L. Cornelio Sullae Omnibusque S.P.D.

I think I see where you are going with this Senator, you are suggesting we
apply to this all languages, not just exclusively to Latin? Sounds fair in
theory, however a double-edged sword nonetheless. The same issue would be
raised again just in a completely different angle, a compromise must be
made therefore a revision (yes I know I keep saying the "R" word) so that
balance can be maintained and this issue is simply raised again.


Vale Optime,
Statia Cornelia Aeternia


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86736 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Ave!

Again, I have a right to bear arms, but if I want to buy a gun, I AM FORCED
to submit to a background and criminal check. If I want to protest
something I MUST get permits. So, whats the difference, Cato?

Vale,

Sulla

On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 3:58 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Cato Corneliae Aeterniae praetoris sal.
>
> No. To *request* a translation is not too much at all. To *demand* one is.
>
> Vale bene,
>
> Cato
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Belle Morte Statia <syrenslullaby@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Sta. Cornelia Aeternia C. Equitio Catoni C. Petronio Dextro sal:
> >
> >
> > Cato with no disrespect towards you, for you know I hold you in high
> > regard. Is it fair to those who do not understand Latin so well to be
> > perpetually confused? Is a request for a English translation that
> > difficult? I could understand better if say for example, Latin was
> > completely banned entirely, then yes that would be beyond unfair and
> > unjust. I think Dexter's attempt was to establish clearer channels of
> > communication for the Forum in general, not to restrict anyone's freedom
> of
> > speech.
> >
> > However I do feel a small revision to the Edict should be made, so that
> > this issue is not raised again and we can move forward to making our
> > resrepublic a better place.
> >
> >
> > Vale Optime,
> > Aeternia
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 3:27 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
> >
> > > **
> > >
> > >
> > > Cato Petronio Dextero praetoris sal.
> > >
> > > The issue of Latin's "value" should never have been introduced, and is
> > > another red herring; the point is that you are attempting to place a
> > > restriction of the right of a citizen to speak freely in the Forum in
> > > *whatever* language they want.
> > >
> > > Just because Latin and English side by side may be a valuable *teaching
> > > tool* does not validate the restriction attempted.
> > >
> > > Vale bene,
> > >
> > > Cato
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86737 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Ave!

I assumed it was for all languages. I just assumed Scholastica and
Metellus were focusing on Latin because of its privileged position in Nova
Roma. It would be consistent to apply it to all languages. Am I incorrect?

Respectfully,

Sulla

On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 3:58 PM, Belle Morte Statia
<syrenslullaby@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> Sta. Cornelia Aeternia L. Cornelio Sullae Omnibusque S.P.D.
>
> I think I see where you are going with this Senator, you are suggesting we
> apply to this all languages, not just exclusively to Latin? Sounds fair in
> theory, however a double-edged sword nonetheless. The same issue would be
> raised again just in a completely different angle, a compromise must be
> made therefore a revision (yes I know I keep saying the "R" word) so that
> balance can be maintained and this issue is simply raised again.
>
>
> Vale Optime,
> Statia Cornelia Aeternia
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86738 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Cato Petronio Dextero sal.

Once again you are sort of veering off into an unnecessary area. Latin is fine. It is good and noble and a beautiful language that should be encouraged and studied and supported.

That is not the issue, and has nothing to do with the issue. The goals of the Respublica has nothing to do with the issue. The issue is the right of a citizen to speak freely under Constitutional protection without hindrance by the State. It is a matter of the state trying to decide what's best for the citizens regardless of whether or not the law allows it to - and here the law does not.

But for argument's sake, since we are constantly talking about equating our activities here to "real life", imagine, if you will, that Lentulus visits the Forum one day. If he speaks Latin, do you think it would be reasonable to require that he have someone walking behind him, translating into English as he walks? Your edict is the equivalent of this.

Vale bene,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@...> wrote:
>
> C. Petronius Dexter C. Catoni salutem,
>
> >>> The issue of Latin's "value" should never have been introduced, and is another red herring; the point is that you are attempting to place a restriction of the right of a citizen to speak freely in the Forum in *whatever* language they want.<<<
>
> As praetor I have to follow and to make respected the ToS. I did not attempt the free speech, because I ask for an English translation. Do you really think that Q. Metellus and Tullia Scholastica cannot speak freely in the Forum in Latin, if they translate their Latin posts into English? It is certainly more easy for them than for me.
>
> >>> Just because Latin and English side by side may be a valuable *teaching tool* does not validate the restriction attempted.<<<
>
> One of the goal of Nova Roma is "to encourage classical studies and increase the usage of Latin among the citizens of Nova Roma" according the Law Arminia de fovenda lingua Latina. I am sure that goal more easy with Latin texts accompanied by English translation that Latin posts not understantable.
>
> Optime vale.
>
> C. Petronius Dexter
> Arcoiali scribebat
> a. d. V Idus Ianuarias Cn. Caesare C. Tullio coss.
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86739 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Salve amice
 
The difference is that in the USA and elsewhere you can't do diddly squat about the inconvience if you want to avail yourself of those rights. You have to comply if you want the end product. Contrast that with NR. Here you can produce a bicyle pump and inflate the issue to a proportion that it frankly, and yes - in my opinion, doesn't merit and probably in the end force a change - and then create another issue of corporate liability. NR should be in the business of reducing corporate risk, not enouraging its growth.
 
Vale bene
Caesar

From: Robert Woolwine <robert.woolwine@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 9, 2012 3:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE ROMAE (AKA MAIN LIST OR ML)

Ave!

Again, I have a right to bear arms, but if I want to buy a gun, I AM FORCED
to submit to a background and criminal check.  If I want to protest
something I MUST get permits.  So, whats the difference, Cato?

Vale,

Sulla

On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 3:58 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Cato Corneliae Aeterniae praetoris sal.
>
> No. To *request* a translation is not too much at all. To *demand* one is.
>
> Vale bene,
>
> Cato
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Belle Morte Statia <syrenslullaby@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Sta. Cornelia Aeternia C. Equitio Catoni C. Petronio Dextro sal:
> >
> >
> > Cato with no disrespect towards you, for you know I hold you in high
> > regard. Is it fair to those who do not understand Latin so well to be
> > perpetually confused? Is a request for a English translation that
> > difficult? I could understand better if say for example, Latin was
> > completely banned entirely, then yes that would be beyond unfair and
> > unjust. I think Dexter's attempt was to establish clearer channels of
> > communication for the Forum in general, not to restrict anyone's freedom
> of
> > speech.
> >
> > However I do feel a small revision to the Edict should be made, so that
> > this issue is not raised again and we can move forward to making our
> > resrepublic a better place.
> >
> >
> > Vale Optime,
> > Aeternia
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 3:27 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
> >
> > > **
> > >
> > >
> > > Cato Petronio Dextero praetoris sal.
> > >
> > > The issue of Latin's "value" should never have been introduced, and is
> > > another red herring; the point is that you are attempting to place a
> > > restriction of the right of a citizen to speak freely in the Forum in
> > > *whatever* language they want.
> > >
> > > Just because Latin and English side by side may be a valuable *teaching
> > > tool* does not validate the restriction attempted.
> > >
> > > Vale bene,
> > >
> > > Cato
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86740 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Ave,

Well if Lentulus starts talking in Latin, and no one in the audience or
within ear's reach can understand Latin, they might think he is..well
insane.

Vale,

Sulla

On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 4:05 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Cato Petronio Dextero sal.
>
> Once again you are sort of veering off into an unnecessary area. Latin is
> fine. It is good and noble and a beautiful language that should be
> encouraged and studied and supported.
>
> That is not the issue, and has nothing to do with the issue. The goals of
> the Respublica has nothing to do with the issue. The issue is the right of
> a citizen to speak freely under Constitutional protection without hindrance
> by the State. It is a matter of the state trying to decide what's best for
> the citizens regardless of whether or not the law allows it to - and here
> the law does not.
>
> But for argument's sake, since we are constantly talking about equating
> our activities here to "real life", imagine, if you will, that Lentulus
> visits the Forum one day. If he speaks Latin, do you think it would be
> reasonable to require that he have someone walking behind him, translating
> into English as he walks? Your edict is the equivalent of this.
>
> Vale bene,
>
> Cato
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > C. Petronius Dexter C. Catoni salutem,
> >
> > >>> The issue of Latin's "value" should never have been introduced, and
> is another red herring; the point is that you are attempting to place a
> restriction of the right of a citizen to speak freely in the Forum in
> *whatever* language they want.<<<
> >
> > As praetor I have to follow and to make respected the ToS. I did not
> attempt the free speech, because I ask for an English translation. Do you
> really think that Q. Metellus and Tullia Scholastica cannot speak freely in
> the Forum in Latin, if they translate their Latin posts into English? It is
> certainly more easy for them than for me.
> >
> > >>> Just because Latin and English side by side may be a valuable
> *teaching tool* does not validate the restriction attempted.<<<
> >
> > One of the goal of Nova Roma is "to encourage classical studies and
> increase the usage of Latin among the citizens of Nova Roma" according the
> Law Arminia de fovenda lingua Latina. I am sure that goal more easy with
> Latin texts accompanied by English translation that Latin posts not
> understantable.
> >
> > Optime vale.
> >
> > C. Petronius Dexter
> > Arcoiali scribebat
> > a. d. V Idus Ianuarias Cn. Caesare C. Tullio coss.
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86741 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Cato Sullae sal.

You are missing the point though, Sulla. It's nothing to do with Latin. What if we had a citizen who spoke only Latin and Portugese? They must learn English before they can speak in the Forum?

The whole point is that you *cannot* require something of a citizen that hinders their speech in the Forum, no matter how good or useful or well intentioned that requirement might be. The Constitution does not allow it.

Vale bene,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robert Woolwine <robert.woolwine@...> wrote:
>
> Ave!
>
> This raises a good point, there are no NATIVE Latin speakers. Latin
> speakers need to be fluent in some other language, French, Spanish, English
> etc etc. I do not know of ANYONE who only speaks Latin and thusly would
> be inconvenienced by the English translation requirement. And, in the end
> that is what the result is, not a curtailing of rights, but at most a
> minor inconvenience. And, guess what I have rights in the US that are
> regularly inconvenienced all the time. For example, when I go buy a gun, I
> have to go through a mandatory background check. In California, I had to
> attend a hunter safety training class, yet per the Constitution of the US I
> have a right to bear arms. If I want to organize a protest I must get
> licenses and permits to have such protests, despite the Constitution
> stating I have the right to free speech and express.
>
> Inconvenience does not equal removing someone's rights. As long as the
> venue is available, they can post in Esparanto, as long as an English
> translation is provided!
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Sulla
>
> On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 3:36 PM, Belle Morte Statia
> <syrenslullaby@...>wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Sta. Cornelia Aeternia C. Equitio Catoni C. Petronio Dextro sal:
> >
> > Cato with no disrespect towards you, for you know I hold you in high
> > regard. Is it fair to those who do not understand Latin so well to be
> > perpetually confused? Is a request for a English translation that
> > difficult? I could understand better if say for example, Latin was
> > completely banned entirely, then yes that would be beyond unfair and
> > unjust. I think Dexter's attempt was to establish clearer channels of
> > communication for the Forum in general, not to restrict anyone's freedom of
> > speech.
> >
> > However I do feel a small revision to the Edict should be made, so that
> > this issue is not raised again and we can move forward to making our
> > resrepublic a better place.
> >
> > Vale Optime,
> > Aeternia
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 3:27 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
> >
> > > **
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Cato Petronio Dextero praetoris sal.
> > >
> > > The issue of Latin's "value" should never have been introduced, and is
> > > another red herring; the point is that you are attempting to place a
> > > restriction of the right of a citizen to speak freely in the Forum in
> > > *whatever* language they want.
> > >
> > > Just because Latin and English side by side may be a valuable *teaching
> > > tool* does not validate the restriction attempted.
> > >
> > > Vale bene,
> > >
> > > Cato
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86742 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Cato Sullae sal.

So what? Being insane isn't illegal. Just inconvenient at times.

Vale bene,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robert Woolwine <robert.woolwine@...> wrote:
>
> Ave,
>
> Well if Lentulus starts talking in Latin, and no one in the audience or
> within ear's reach can understand Latin, they might think he is..well
> insane.
>
> Vale,
>
> Sulla
>
> On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 4:05 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Cato Petronio Dextero sal.
> >
> > Once again you are sort of veering off into an unnecessary area. Latin is
> > fine. It is good and noble and a beautiful language that should be
> > encouraged and studied and supported.
> >
> > That is not the issue, and has nothing to do with the issue. The goals of
> > the Respublica has nothing to do with the issue. The issue is the right of
> > a citizen to speak freely under Constitutional protection without hindrance
> > by the State. It is a matter of the state trying to decide what's best for
> > the citizens regardless of whether or not the law allows it to - and here
> > the law does not.
> >
> > But for argument's sake, since we are constantly talking about equating
> > our activities here to "real life", imagine, if you will, that Lentulus
> > visits the Forum one day. If he speaks Latin, do you think it would be
> > reasonable to require that he have someone walking behind him, translating
> > into English as he walks? Your edict is the equivalent of this.
> >
> > Vale bene,
> >
> > Cato
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > C. Petronius Dexter C. Catoni salutem,
> > >
> > > >>> The issue of Latin's "value" should never have been introduced, and
> > is another red herring; the point is that you are attempting to place a
> > restriction of the right of a citizen to speak freely in the Forum in
> > *whatever* language they want.<<<
> > >
> > > As praetor I have to follow and to make respected the ToS. I did not
> > attempt the free speech, because I ask for an English translation. Do you
> > really think that Q. Metellus and Tullia Scholastica cannot speak freely in
> > the Forum in Latin, if they translate their Latin posts into English? It is
> > certainly more easy for them than for me.
> > >
> > > >>> Just because Latin and English side by side may be a valuable
> > *teaching tool* does not validate the restriction attempted.<<<
> > >
> > > One of the goal of Nova Roma is "to encourage classical studies and
> > increase the usage of Latin among the citizens of Nova Roma" according the
> > Law Arminia de fovenda lingua Latina. I am sure that goal more easy with
> > Latin texts accompanied by English translation that Latin posts not
> > understantable.
> > >
> > > Optime vale.
> > >
> > > C. Petronius Dexter
> > > Arcoiali scribebat
> > > a. d. V Idus Ianuarias Cn. Caesare C. Tullio coss.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86743 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Salve amice
 
The point of language is to communicate -and unless he is talking to himself a reasonable expectation would be that he explain to others what he is saying in a standard language of communication - that happens to be English. otherwise what is the point of the speech in Latin?
 
Vale bene
Caesar
 
From: Robert Woolwine <robert.woolwine@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 9, 2012 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE ROMAE (AKA MAIN LIST OR ML)

Ave,

Well if Lentulus starts talking in Latin, and no one in the audience or
within ear's reach can understand Latin, they might think he is..well
insane.

Vale,

Sulla

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86744 From: Belle Morte Statia Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Sta. Cornelia Aeternia C.Equitio Catoni Omnisbusque S.P.D.


Wording issue it seems correct? I don't recall seeing "demand" in the
Edict, but depending on personal interpretation it could be seen as a
*demand*.


So if the Edict was reworded more carefully, where it shows clearly we are
requesting therefore not demanding. Would this issue be neutralized?


Vale Optime,
Aeternia


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86745 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
C. Petronius L. Sullae s.p.d.,

> I assumed it was for all languages.

Of course it is. The edict just focused on the Latin because, first with the precedent item we leave free of translation the Latin openings and closings mails, and second because of the perticular status of the Latin in Nova Roma being a language we have to encourage and increase its usage.

>>> It would be consistent to apply it to all languages. Am I incorrect? <<<

You are not incorrect. As I read it on the ML, the foreign languages are translated in English. But, if it could be a doubt we may clearly precise it in the edict. For me it is obvious.

Optime vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
a. d. V Idus Ianuarias Cn. Caesare C. Tullio coss.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86746 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Ave!

Im not missing the point. I have free speech under the US Constitution.
But if I go to a crowded movie theater and YELL FIRE!!!! Guess what...I
find out there are limits to free speech pretty quick. I think you are
missing the point that there is NO such thing as absolute. Not in the US
not in Nova Roma. We give as wide of beerth as possible, and if there are
some minor inconveniences, they are at least minor!

I dare you, Cato, go into one of your theaters that you attend regularly
and when it is packed start Yelling Fire and see what happens. See how far
your freedom of speech gets you.

Vale,

Sulla

On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 4:09 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Cato Sullae sal.
>
> You are missing the point though, Sulla. It's nothing to do with Latin.
> What if we had a citizen who spoke only Latin and Portugese? They must
> learn English before they can speak in the Forum?
>
> The whole point is that you *cannot* require something of a citizen that
> hinders their speech in the Forum, no matter how good or useful or well
> intentioned that requirement might be. The Constitution does not allow it.
>
> Vale bene,
>
> Cato
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robert Woolwine <robert.woolwine@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Ave!
> >
> > This raises a good point, there are no NATIVE Latin speakers. Latin
> > speakers need to be fluent in some other language, French, Spanish,
> English
> > etc etc. I do not know of ANYONE who only speaks Latin and thusly would
> > be inconvenienced by the English translation requirement. And, in the end
> > that is what the result is, not a curtailing of rights, but at most a
> > minor inconvenience. And, guess what I have rights in the US that are
> > regularly inconvenienced all the time. For example, when I go buy a gun,
> I
> > have to go through a mandatory background check. In California, I had to
> > attend a hunter safety training class, yet per the Constitution of the
> US I
> > have a right to bear arms. If I want to organize a protest I must get
> > licenses and permits to have such protests, despite the Constitution
> > stating I have the right to free speech and express.
> >
> > Inconvenience does not equal removing someone's rights. As long as the
> > venue is available, they can post in Esparanto, as long as an English
> > translation is provided!
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> > Sulla
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 3:36 PM, Belle Morte Statia
> > <syrenslullaby@...>wrote:
> >
> > > **
>
> > >
> > >
> > > Sta. Cornelia Aeternia C. Equitio Catoni C. Petronio Dextro sal:
> > >
> > > Cato with no disrespect towards you, for you know I hold you in high
> > > regard. Is it fair to those who do not understand Latin so well to be
> > > perpetually confused? Is a request for a English translation that
> > > difficult? I could understand better if say for example, Latin was
> > > completely banned entirely, then yes that would be beyond unfair and
> > > unjust. I think Dexter's attempt was to establish clearer channels of
> > > communication for the Forum in general, not to restrict anyone's
> freedom of
> > > speech.
> > >
> > > However I do feel a small revision to the Edict should be made, so that
> > > this issue is not raised again and we can move forward to making our
> > > resrepublic a better place.
> > >
> > > Vale Optime,
> > > Aeternia
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 3:27 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > > **
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Cato Petronio Dextero praetoris sal.
> > > >
> > > > The issue of Latin's "value" should never have been introduced, and
> is
> > > > another red herring; the point is that you are attempting to place a
> > > > restriction of the right of a citizen to speak freely in the Forum in
> > > > *whatever* language they want.
> > > >
> > > > Just because Latin and English side by side may be a valuable
> *teaching
> > > > tool* does not validate the restriction attempted.
> > > >
> > > > Vale bene,
> > > >
> > > > Cato
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86747 From: Belle Morte Statia Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Salve,

No you are not incorrect, it just appeared that was the angle you were
going towards.

Vale,
Aeternia


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86748 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Cato Caesari sal.

Yes, I agree with you! It is *reasonable* - but whether or not something is "reasonable" does not justify violating the law for convenience's sake.

I am not arguing that it is not sensible or even *reasonable* to have an English translation. But you cannot *demand* one.

Vale bene,

Cato



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Iulius Caesar <gn_iulius_caesar@...> wrote:
>
> Salve amice
>  
> The point of language is to communicate -and unless he is talking to himself a reasonable expectation would be that he explain to others what he is saying in a standard language of communication - that happens to be English. otherwise what is the point of the speech in Latin?
>  
> Vale bene
> Caesar
>  
> From: Robert Woolwine <robert.woolwine@...>
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, January 9, 2012 4:07 PM
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE ROMAE (AKA MAIN LIST OR ML)
>
> Ave,
>
> Well if Lentulus starts talking in Latin, and no one in the audience or
> within ear's reach can understand Latin, they might think he is..well
> insane.
>
> Vale,
>
> Sulla
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86749 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Cato Sullae sal.

As the consul would say, you're comparing apples and oranges. Going into a crowded theater and yelling "Fire!" is illegal because it *endangers others* it causes "a clear and imminent danger" to those in the theater.

Speaking in a language other than English in this Forum does *not*.

Vale bene,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robert Woolwine <robert.woolwine@...> wrote:
>
> Ave!
>
> Im not missing the point. I have free speech under the US Constitution.
> But if I go to a crowded movie theater and YELL FIRE!!!! Guess what...I
> find out there are limits to free speech pretty quick. I think you are
> missing the point that there is NO such thing as absolute. Not in the US
> not in Nova Roma. We give as wide of beerth as possible, and if there are
> some minor inconveniences, they are at least minor!
>
> I dare you, Cato, go into one of your theaters that you attend regularly
> and when it is packed start Yelling Fire and see what happens. See how far
> your freedom of speech gets you.
>
> Vale,
>
> Sulla
>
> On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 4:09 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Cato Sullae sal.
> >
> > You are missing the point though, Sulla. It's nothing to do with Latin.
> > What if we had a citizen who spoke only Latin and Portugese? They must
> > learn English before they can speak in the Forum?
> >
> > The whole point is that you *cannot* require something of a citizen that
> > hinders their speech in the Forum, no matter how good or useful or well
> > intentioned that requirement might be. The Constitution does not allow it.
> >
> > Vale bene,
> >
> > Cato
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robert Woolwine <robert.woolwine@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Ave!
> > >
> > > This raises a good point, there are no NATIVE Latin speakers. Latin
> > > speakers need to be fluent in some other language, French, Spanish,
> > English
> > > etc etc. I do not know of ANYONE who only speaks Latin and thusly would
> > > be inconvenienced by the English translation requirement. And, in the end
> > > that is what the result is, not a curtailing of rights, but at most a
> > > minor inconvenience. And, guess what I have rights in the US that are
> > > regularly inconvenienced all the time. For example, when I go buy a gun,
> > I
> > > have to go through a mandatory background check. In California, I had to
> > > attend a hunter safety training class, yet per the Constitution of the
> > US I
> > > have a right to bear arms. If I want to organize a protest I must get
> > > licenses and permits to have such protests, despite the Constitution
> > > stating I have the right to free speech and express.
> > >
> > > Inconvenience does not equal removing someone's rights. As long as the
> > > venue is available, they can post in Esparanto, as long as an English
> > > translation is provided!
> > >
> > > Respectfully,
> > >
> > > Sulla
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 3:36 PM, Belle Morte Statia
> > > <syrenslullaby@>wrote:
> > >
> > > > **
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Sta. Cornelia Aeternia C. Equitio Catoni C. Petronio Dextro sal:
> > > >
> > > > Cato with no disrespect towards you, for you know I hold you in high
> > > > regard. Is it fair to those who do not understand Latin so well to be
> > > > perpetually confused? Is a request for a English translation that
> > > > difficult? I could understand better if say for example, Latin was
> > > > completely banned entirely, then yes that would be beyond unfair and
> > > > unjust. I think Dexter's attempt was to establish clearer channels of
> > > > communication for the Forum in general, not to restrict anyone's
> > freedom of
> > > > speech.
> > > >
> > > > However I do feel a small revision to the Edict should be made, so that
> > > > this issue is not raised again and we can move forward to making our
> > > > resrepublic a better place.
> > > >
> > > > Vale Optime,
> > > > Aeternia
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 3:27 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > **
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Cato Petronio Dextero praetoris sal.
> > > > >
> > > > > The issue of Latin's "value" should never have been introduced, and
> > is
> > > > > another red herring; the point is that you are attempting to place a
> > > > > restriction of the right of a citizen to speak freely in the Forum in
> > > > > *whatever* language they want.
> > > > >
> > > > > Just because Latin and English side by side may be a valuable
> > *teaching
> > > > > tool* does not validate the restriction attempted.
> > > > >
> > > > > Vale bene,
> > > > >
> > > > > Cato
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86750 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Caesar Catoni sal.
 
Ah ha! So now we are getting to the root of it. This opposition isn't about rights is it? It is about YOU being inconvenienced by having to provide a translation. So when you post in Latin do you just cut and paste the segment with full understanding, limited or none? Who are you posting to - for who's benefit? Are you just talking to yourself in a language you don't fully have a grasp of, for if you are fluent why wouldn't you want to increase the scope of your audience and provide a translation?
 
This isn't about the right of someone to speak Latin as a principle or a right - it is about you having to take time to translate it.
 
So - NR Inc. could incur an increased risk of liability by its officials not being able to read a post and know its contents - just in order that you don't have to provide a translation?
 
Also - if I write an inflammatory message in English, and you write exactly the same in Latin and the praetor at the time doesn't understand it, I get moderated, but you escape the same liability. Where is the equity, fairness and common sense in that? What does that tell us about imminent and clear danger to the res publica? To me it says that content is the issue - not the language. Therefore the protection afforded to content excludes language. Clear and imminent danger can only come from the ideas and concepts expressed - not the language used as a vehicle to convey that. That is what that section of the Constitution is concerned about as it is written.
 
So far I see the arguments against this part of the edit as being mainly about elitism and laziness.
 
Optime vale 

From: Cato <catoinnyc@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 9, 2012 4:11 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE ROMAE (AKA MAIN LIST OR ML)


 
Cato Sullae sal.

So what? Being insane isn't illegal. Just inconvenient at times.

Vale bene,

Cato


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86751 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Ave!

No, you are arguing free speech is absolute. I am saying, no its not and
here is an example.

Vale,

Sulla

On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 4:24 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Cato Sullae sal.
>
> As the consul would say, you're comparing apples and oranges. Going into a
> crowded theater and yelling "Fire!" is illegal because it *endangers
> others* it causes "a clear and imminent danger" to those in the theater.
>
> Speaking in a language other than English in this Forum does *not*.
>
>
> Vale bene,
>
> Cato
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robert Woolwine <robert.woolwine@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Ave!
> >
> > Im not missing the point. I have free speech under the US Constitution.
> > But if I go to a crowded movie theater and YELL FIRE!!!! Guess what...I
> > find out there are limits to free speech pretty quick. I think you are
> > missing the point that there is NO such thing as absolute. Not in the US
> > not in Nova Roma. We give as wide of beerth as possible, and if there are
> > some minor inconveniences, they are at least minor!
> >
> > I dare you, Cato, go into one of your theaters that you attend regularly
> > and when it is packed start Yelling Fire and see what happens. See how
> far
> > your freedom of speech gets you.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Sulla
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 4:09 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
> >
> > > **
>
> > >
> > >
> > > Cato Sullae sal.
> > >
> > > You are missing the point though, Sulla. It's nothing to do with Latin.
> > > What if we had a citizen who spoke only Latin and Portugese? They must
> > > learn English before they can speak in the Forum?
> > >
> > > The whole point is that you *cannot* require something of a citizen
> that
> > > hinders their speech in the Forum, no matter how good or useful or well
> > > intentioned that requirement might be. The Constitution does not allow
> it.
> > >
> > > Vale bene,
> > >
> > > Cato
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robert Woolwine <robert.woolwine@>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Ave!
> > > >
> > > > This raises a good point, there are no NATIVE Latin speakers. Latin
> > > > speakers need to be fluent in some other language, French, Spanish,
> > > English
> > > > etc etc. I do not know of ANYONE who only speaks Latin and thusly
> would
> > > > be inconvenienced by the English translation requirement. And, in
> the end
> > > > that is what the result is, not a curtailing of rights, but at most a
> > > > minor inconvenience. And, guess what I have rights in the US that are
> > > > regularly inconvenienced all the time. For example, when I go buy a
> gun,
> > > I
> > > > have to go through a mandatory background check. In California, I
> had to
> > > > attend a hunter safety training class, yet per the Constitution of
> the
> > > US I
> > > > have a right to bear arms. If I want to organize a protest I must get
> > > > licenses and permits to have such protests, despite the Constitution
> > > > stating I have the right to free speech and express.
> > > >
> > > > Inconvenience does not equal removing someone's rights. As long as
> the
> > > > venue is available, they can post in Esparanto, as long as an English
> > > > translation is provided!
> > > >
> > > > Respectfully,
> > > >
> > > > Sulla
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 3:36 PM, Belle Morte Statia
> > > > <syrenslullaby@>wrote:
>
> > > >
> > > > > **
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Sta. Cornelia Aeternia C. Equitio Catoni C. Petronio Dextro sal:
> > > > >
> > > > > Cato with no disrespect towards you, for you know I hold you in
> high
> > > > > regard. Is it fair to those who do not understand Latin so well to
> be
> > > > > perpetually confused? Is a request for a English translation that
> > > > > difficult? I could understand better if say for example, Latin was
> > > > > completely banned entirely, then yes that would be beyond unfair
> and
> > > > > unjust. I think Dexter's attempt was to establish clearer channels
> of
> > > > > communication for the Forum in general, not to restrict anyone's
> > > freedom of
> > > > > speech.
> > > > >
> > > > > However I do feel a small revision to the Edict should be made, so
> that
> > > > > this issue is not raised again and we can move forward to making
> our
> > > > > resrepublic a better place.
> > > > >
> > > > > Vale Optime,
> > > > > Aeternia
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 3:27 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > **
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cato Petronio Dextero praetoris sal.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The issue of Latin's "value" should never have been introduced,
> and
> > > is
> > > > > > another red herring; the point is that you are attempting to
> place a
> > > > > > restriction of the right of a citizen to speak freely in the
> Forum in
> > > > > > *whatever* language they want.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Just because Latin and English side by side may be a valuable
> > > *teaching
> > > > > > tool* does not validate the restriction attempted.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Vale bene,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cato
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86752 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Caesar Catoni sal.
 
As to who is violating what - that is perspective. I think you are violating the intent of the section of the Constitution by ascribing language to content, when it is an apples and oranges situation.
 
Optime vale

From: Cato <catoinnyc@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 9, 2012 4:21 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE ROMAE (AKA MAIN LIST OR ML)


 
Cato Caesari sal.

Yes, I agree with you! It is *reasonable* - but whether or not something is "reasonable" does not justify violating the law for convenience's sake.

I am not arguing that it is not sensible or even *reasonable* to have an English translation. But you cannot *demand* one.

Vale bene,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Iulius Caesar <gn_iulius_caesar@...> wrote:
>
> Salve amice
>  
> The point of language is to communicate -and unless he is talking to himself a reasonable expectation would be that he explain to others what he is saying in a standard language of communication - that happens to be English. otherwise what is the point of the speech in Latin?
>  
> Vale bene
> Caesar
>  
> From: Robert Woolwine <robert.woolwine@...>
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, January 9, 2012 4:07 PM
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE ROMAE (AKA MAIN LIST OR ML)
>
> Ave,
>
> Well if Lentulus starts talking in Latin, and no one in the audience or
> within ear's reach can understand Latin, they might think he is..well
> insane.
>
> Vale,
>
> Sulla
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86753 From: petronius_dexter Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
C. Petronius C. Catoni sal.,

> I am not arguing that it is not sensible or even *reasonable* to have an English translation. But you cannot *demand* one.

By this edict we can. Praetor edicts also are a piece of laws. To do our job of moderating the ML in the better conditions for everybody we decree by this edict some rules for the year 2765. We do not have in the cohors an interpreter of each language and it is more responsible to request an English translation. Those rules do not attempt to the free speech's rights, and more allow towards everybody to understand and to be understood, in using English as common language.

Optime vale.

C. Petronius Dexter
Arcoiali scribebat
a. d. V Idus Ianuarias Cn. Caesare C. Tullio coss.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86754 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01:
In a message dated 1/9/2012 12:37:04 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
catoinnyc@... writes:

To be fair, it should be noted that (among others) Cordus believed that we
did not have a mechanism for Constitutional interpretation *before* the
lex Arminia was passed.
============

Frankly I think you all are morons.

Cordus argument pre-assumed the Framers of the Nova Roma Constitution were
dead. Or disagreed with the interpretation of the framers, since he Cordus
was of superior intellect. So, since the framers are not dead, and Cordus
was a rabble rousing twit, do you think that when the framers state what
they intended, that they are unsure of what they were attempting to do?
Because that is the way you all are "framing" your arguments. Cordus biggest
complaint was that In His Opinion the framers used a combination of the
Sullan Late Republican Constitution mixed with a liberal dose of the US
Constitution. In other words Roman structure with basic unalienable freedoms.
And this is why he wanted no constitution The original Roman was not
muddled. Republican Rome was never a true democracy as was the US never a
democracy. Rome was a republic that was an Oligarchy that governed its people
using representative democracy as a check to the Oligarchy's power.
You could argue that that the US was the same, rich land owners called the
shots under a thin veneer of control. Andrew Jackson was the first
populist President, but even then the people had less of a say then one would
hope.

So with the framers alive yet aloof you cannot argue that the Vedian
Constitution cannot be interpreted. You can say the framers are unresponsive
leaving the Powers that be to interpret it for themselves.
We all ready saw how this fared during the trials. I'm sure Vedius will
be glad to say what he had in mind when he wrote it, if someone asked him.
By the way, we had similar arguments in 1998, 2006, 2008 and all the
brilliant minds of NR did was piss off the framers and make them leave or loose
interest in their construct.

Q. Fabius Maximus










[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86755 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01:
Caesar Maximo sal.
 
Firstly - Yahoo! ToS probably doesn't allow "I think you are all morons"
 
Secondly - it is irrelevant what a framer of a Constitution, or a law for that matter, thought, intended, meant, wanted. If we used that methodology - which is the prerogative of a Constitutional Court - very un-Roman, then we would be held hostage to people's memories or subsequent declarations - which for all we know were not their thoughts at time. Then we would be held hostage by individuals. Would you want Piscinus defining what he meant to say in a decretum subsequently when a point of controversy arose? Would you trust his memory or good will to be accurate in his recollections? Once you apply that dictum to one you have to apply to all, founders or not. Therefore the law and Constitution would waver based on each year's recollection, modified either deliberately or by the passing of the years, of the framer. You feel comfortable with that because of who they are, but you can't have a rule like that in isolation. Also - they aren't overly active
so we can't be reliant on that practically.
 
No - we go by the words. The Constitution as the supreme legal document should have had a method, clear and unambiguous, of interpretation built in. It didn't and doesn't. We therefore go by the literal meaning.
 
Optime vale. 

From: "QFabiusMaxmi@..." <QFabiusMaxmi@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 9, 2012 4:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01:


 


In a message dated 1/9/2012 12:37:04 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
catoinnyc@... writes:

To be fair, it should be noted that (among others) Cordus believed that we
did not have a mechanism for Constitutional interpretation *before* the
lex Arminia was passed.
============

Frankly I think you all are morons.

Cordus argument pre-assumed the Framers of the Nova Roma Constitution were
dead. Or disagreed with the interpretation of the framers, since he Cordus
was of superior intellect. So, since the framers are not dead, and Cordus
was a rabble rousing twit, do you think that when the framers state what


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86756 From: Steven "Venator" Robinson Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Salve et salvete;

If I may?

I have read through the entire thread.

Me, I appreciate when an English version of a post is sent, especially
so for any Latin, as I hope Latinists would want to encourage we
non-Latinists who do want at least some knowledge thereof, by
providing such.

Do we not have translators within our ranks to provide English
equivalents for non-English speakers of current national languages?
If so, we need to emphasize the existence of this tool for
communication.

Otherwise, if a French member sends a message to the main list, which
is predominantly for other French members, why should it not be in
French? I have little need to know that the Colonia in Le Havre is
meeting at the local cafe....nor do I need to know that some
Sarmatians are meeting at the home of Rufus Nonius Ambulator for
Sunday dinner.

Latin, Attic Greek, Oscan, Sanskrit, Aramaic...I don't know of many
places where these are the current, predominant tongue...

Nova Roma is just that, NEW Rome. Until we have grandchildren of
current members being raised within a milieu of Romanitas, in Latin,
we have to have compromises.

Vale et valete...

Venator
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86757 From: Steven "Venator" Robinson Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: Alive and well
Salve Priscus;

As one who knows the "slings and arrows of outrageous fortune"
himself, welcome home.

Vale - Venator
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86758 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Cato Caesari consulis sal.

Unfortunate it is that we need to descend - so quickly - into ad hominem, Caesar, which you seem to be comfortable doing with increasing regularity these days.

Your response - besides having nothing to do with my (humorous) response to Sulla - was entirely incorrect (which you would know if you read what I have written) and unnecessarily rude.

If this to you is such a "tempest in a teapot", perhaps you'd be better served not responding at all. A better avenue to take than the road you're briskly treading now.

Vale bene,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86759 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Cato Sullae sal.

No, I am not. I am saying that you cannot hinder free speech if it contradicts written law.

Your example posits a very real and very clear danger. Quite different from mine.

Vale bene,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robert Woolwine <robert.woolwine@...> wrote:
>
> Ave!
>
> No, you are arguing free speech is absolute. I am saying, no its not and
> here is an example.
>
> Vale,
>
> Sulla
>
> On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 4:24 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Cato Sullae sal.
> >
> > As the consul would say, you're comparing apples and oranges. Going into a
> > crowded theater and yelling "Fire!" is illegal because it *endangers
> > others* it causes "a clear and imminent danger" to those in the theater.
> >
> > Speaking in a language other than English in this Forum does *not*.
> >
> >
> > Vale bene,
> >
> > Cato
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robert Woolwine <robert.woolwine@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Ave!
> > >
> > > Im not missing the point. I have free speech under the US Constitution.
> > > But if I go to a crowded movie theater and YELL FIRE!!!! Guess what...I
> > > find out there are limits to free speech pretty quick. I think you are
> > > missing the point that there is NO such thing as absolute. Not in the US
> > > not in Nova Roma. We give as wide of beerth as possible, and if there are
> > > some minor inconveniences, they are at least minor!
> > >
> > > I dare you, Cato, go into one of your theaters that you attend regularly
> > > and when it is packed start Yelling Fire and see what happens. See how
> > far
> > > your freedom of speech gets you.
> > >
> > > Vale,
> > >
> > > Sulla
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 4:09 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > >
> > > > **
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Cato Sullae sal.
> > > >
> > > > You are missing the point though, Sulla. It's nothing to do with Latin.
> > > > What if we had a citizen who spoke only Latin and Portugese? They must
> > > > learn English before they can speak in the Forum?
> > > >
> > > > The whole point is that you *cannot* require something of a citizen
> > that
> > > > hinders their speech in the Forum, no matter how good or useful or well
> > > > intentioned that requirement might be. The Constitution does not allow
> > it.
> > > >
> > > > Vale bene,
> > > >
> > > > Cato
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robert Woolwine <robert.woolwine@>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Ave!
> > > > >
> > > > > This raises a good point, there are no NATIVE Latin speakers. Latin
> > > > > speakers need to be fluent in some other language, French, Spanish,
> > > > English
> > > > > etc etc. I do not know of ANYONE who only speaks Latin and thusly
> > would
> > > > > be inconvenienced by the English translation requirement. And, in
> > the end
> > > > > that is what the result is, not a curtailing of rights, but at most a
> > > > > minor inconvenience. And, guess what I have rights in the US that are
> > > > > regularly inconvenienced all the time. For example, when I go buy a
> > gun,
> > > > I
> > > > > have to go through a mandatory background check. In California, I
> > had to
> > > > > attend a hunter safety training class, yet per the Constitution of
> > the
> > > > US I
> > > > > have a right to bear arms. If I want to organize a protest I must get
> > > > > licenses and permits to have such protests, despite the Constitution
> > > > > stating I have the right to free speech and express.
> > > > >
> > > > > Inconvenience does not equal removing someone's rights. As long as
> > the
> > > > > venue is available, they can post in Esparanto, as long as an English
> > > > > translation is provided!
> > > > >
> > > > > Respectfully,
> > > > >
> > > > > Sulla
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 3:36 PM, Belle Morte Statia
> > > > > <syrenslullaby@>wrote:
> >
> > > > >
> > > > > > **
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sta. Cornelia Aeternia C. Equitio Catoni C. Petronio Dextro sal:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cato with no disrespect towards you, for you know I hold you in
> > high
> > > > > > regard. Is it fair to those who do not understand Latin so well to
> > be
> > > > > > perpetually confused? Is a request for a English translation that
> > > > > > difficult? I could understand better if say for example, Latin was
> > > > > > completely banned entirely, then yes that would be beyond unfair
> > and
> > > > > > unjust. I think Dexter's attempt was to establish clearer channels
> > of
> > > > > > communication for the Forum in general, not to restrict anyone's
> > > > freedom of
> > > > > > speech.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > However I do feel a small revision to the Edict should be made, so
> > that
> > > > > > this issue is not raised again and we can move forward to making
> > our
> > > > > > resrepublic a better place.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Vale Optime,
> > > > > > Aeternia
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 3:27 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > **
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Cato Petronio Dextero praetoris sal.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The issue of Latin's "value" should never have been introduced,
> > and
> > > > is
> > > > > > > another red herring; the point is that you are attempting to
> > place a
> > > > > > > restriction of the right of a citizen to speak freely in the
> > Forum in
> > > > > > > *whatever* language they want.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Just because Latin and English side by side may be a valuable
> > > > *teaching
> > > > > > > tool* does not validate the restriction attempted.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Vale bene,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Cato
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86760 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Cato Petronio Dextero preatoris sal.

Your edicts are subject to the Constitution. It *does* *not* *matter* what is "easier" for a cohors.

Vale bene,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@...> wrote:
>
> C. Petronius C. Catoni sal.,
>
> > I am not arguing that it is not sensible or even *reasonable* to have an English translation. But you cannot *demand* one.
>
> By this edict we can. Praetor edicts also are a piece of laws. To do our job of moderating the ML in the better conditions for everybody we decree by this edict some rules for the year 2765. We do not have in the cohors an interpreter of each language and it is more responsible to request an English translation. Those rules do not attempt to the free speech's rights, and more allow towards everybody to understand and to be understood, in using English as common language.
>
> Optime vale.
>
> C. Petronius Dexter
> Arcoiali scribebat
> a. d. V Idus Ianuarias Cn. Caesare C. Tullio coss.
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86761 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Ave!

Cato, again, you are saying free speech cannot be curtailed if it
contradicts written law..and I am saying it happens ALL the time. Again,
yelling fire in a movie theater....libel and slander laws....Permits for
protests...if you dont get the permit you can and will be arrested.

My point is there is no such thing as absolutes as much as you wish it so,
it just isn't that way in the real world.

Vale,

Sulla

On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 5:38 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Cato Sullae sal.
>
> No, I am not. I am saying that you cannot hinder free speech if it
> contradicts written law.
>
> Your example posits a very real and very clear danger. Quite different
> from mine.
>
>
> Vale bene,
>
> Cato
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robert Woolwine <robert.woolwine@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Ave!
> >
> > No, you are arguing free speech is absolute. I am saying, no its not and
> > here is an example.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Sulla
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 4:24 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
> >
> > > **
> > >
> > >
> > > Cato Sullae sal.
> > >
> > > As the consul would say, you're comparing apples and oranges. Going
> into a
> > > crowded theater and yelling "Fire!" is illegal because it *endangers
> > > others* it causes "a clear and imminent danger" to those in the
> theater.
> > >
> > > Speaking in a language other than English in this Forum does *not*.
> > >
> > >
> > > Vale bene,
> > >
> > > Cato
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robert Woolwine <robert.woolwine@>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Ave!
> > > >
> > > > Im not missing the point. I have free speech under the US
> Constitution.
> > > > But if I go to a crowded movie theater and YELL FIRE!!!! Guess
> what...I
> > > > find out there are limits to free speech pretty quick. I think you
> are
> > > > missing the point that there is NO such thing as absolute. Not in
> the US
> > > > not in Nova Roma. We give as wide of beerth as possible, and if
> there are
> > > > some minor inconveniences, they are at least minor!
> > > >
> > > > I dare you, Cato, go into one of your theaters that you attend
> regularly
> > > > and when it is packed start Yelling Fire and see what happens. See
> how
> > > far
> > > > your freedom of speech gets you.
> > > >
> > > > Vale,
> > > >
> > > > Sulla
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 4:09 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > **
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Cato Sullae sal.
> > > > >
> > > > > You are missing the point though, Sulla. It's nothing to do with
> Latin.
> > > > > What if we had a citizen who spoke only Latin and Portugese? They
> must
> > > > > learn English before they can speak in the Forum?
> > > > >
> > > > > The whole point is that you *cannot* require something of a citizen
> > > that
> > > > > hinders their speech in the Forum, no matter how good or useful or
> well
> > > > > intentioned that requirement might be. The Constitution does not
> allow
> > > it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Vale bene,
> > > > >
> > > > > Cato
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robert Woolwine
> <robert.woolwine@>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ave!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This raises a good point, there are no NATIVE Latin speakers.
> Latin
> > > > > > speakers need to be fluent in some other language, French,
> Spanish,
> > > > > English
> > > > > > etc etc. I do not know of ANYONE who only speaks Latin and thusly
> > > would
> > > > > > be inconvenienced by the English translation requirement. And, in
> > > the end
> > > > > > that is what the result is, not a curtailing of rights, but at
> most a
> > > > > > minor inconvenience. And, guess what I have rights in the US
> that are
> > > > > > regularly inconvenienced all the time. For example, when I go
> buy a
> > > gun,
> > > > > I
> > > > > > have to go through a mandatory background check. In California, I
> > > had to
> > > > > > attend a hunter safety training class, yet per the Constitution
> of
> > > the
> > > > > US I
> > > > > > have a right to bear arms. If I want to organize a protest I
> must get
> > > > > > licenses and permits to have such protests, despite the
> Constitution
> > > > > > stating I have the right to free speech and express.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Inconvenience does not equal removing someone's rights. As long
> as
> > > the
> > > > > > venue is available, they can post in Esparanto, as long as an
> English
> > > > > > translation is provided!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Respectfully,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sulla
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 3:36 PM, Belle Morte Statia
> > > > > > <syrenslullaby@>wrote:
> > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > **
> > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sta. Cornelia Aeternia C. Equitio Catoni C. Petronio Dextro
> sal:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Cato with no disrespect towards you, for you know I hold you in
> > > high
> > > > > > > regard. Is it fair to those who do not understand Latin so
> well to
> > > be
> > > > > > > perpetually confused? Is a request for a English translation
> that
> > > > > > > difficult? I could understand better if say for example, Latin
> was
> > > > > > > completely banned entirely, then yes that would be beyond
> unfair
> > > and
> > > > > > > unjust. I think Dexter's attempt was to establish clearer
> channels
> > > of
> > > > > > > communication for the Forum in general, not to restrict
> anyone's
> > > > > freedom of
> > > > > > > speech.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > However I do feel a small revision to the Edict should be
> made, so
> > > that
> > > > > > > this issue is not raised again and we can move forward to
> making
> > > our
> > > > > > > resrepublic a better place.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Vale Optime,
> > > > > > > Aeternia
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 3:27 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > **
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Cato Petronio Dextero praetoris sal.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The issue of Latin's "value" should never have been
> introduced,
> > > and
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > > another red herring; the point is that you are attempting to
> > > place a
> > > > > > > > restriction of the right of a citizen to speak freely in the
> > > Forum in
> > > > > > > > *whatever* language they want.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Just because Latin and English side by side may be a valuable
> > > > > *teaching
> > > > > > > > tool* does not validate the restriction attempted.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Vale bene,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Cato
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86762 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Cato Sullae sal.

We already have a very clear restriction on free speech - it must not present an imminent and clear danger to the Respublica. That is what the Constitution says, and no other restriction is acceptable.

Vale bene,

Cato


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robert Woolwine <robert.woolwine@...> wrote:
>
> Ave!
>
> Cato, again, you are saying free speech cannot be curtailed if it
> contradicts written law..and I am saying it happens ALL the time. Again,
> yelling fire in a movie theater....libel and slander laws....Permits for
> protests...if you dont get the permit you can and will be arrested.
>
> My point is there is no such thing as absolutes as much as you wish it so,
> it just isn't that way in the real world.
>
> Vale,
>
> Sulla
>
> On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 5:38 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Cato Sullae sal.
> >
> > No, I am not. I am saying that you cannot hinder free speech if it
> > contradicts written law.
> >
> > Your example posits a very real and very clear danger. Quite different
> > from mine.
> >
> >
> > Vale bene,
> >
> > Cato
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robert Woolwine <robert.woolwine@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Ave!
> > >
> > > No, you are arguing free speech is absolute. I am saying, no its not and
> > > here is an example.
> > >
> > > Vale,
> > >
> > > Sulla
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 4:24 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > >
> > > > **
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Cato Sullae sal.
> > > >
> > > > As the consul would say, you're comparing apples and oranges. Going
> > into a
> > > > crowded theater and yelling "Fire!" is illegal because it *endangers
> > > > others* it causes "a clear and imminent danger" to those in the
> > theater.
> > > >
> > > > Speaking in a language other than English in this Forum does *not*.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Vale bene,
> > > >
> > > > Cato
> > > >
> > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robert Woolwine <robert.woolwine@>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Ave!
> > > > >
> > > > > Im not missing the point. I have free speech under the US
> > Constitution.
> > > > > But if I go to a crowded movie theater and YELL FIRE!!!! Guess
> > what...I
> > > > > find out there are limits to free speech pretty quick. I think you
> > are
> > > > > missing the point that there is NO such thing as absolute. Not in
> > the US
> > > > > not in Nova Roma. We give as wide of beerth as possible, and if
> > there are
> > > > > some minor inconveniences, they are at least minor!
> > > > >
> > > > > I dare you, Cato, go into one of your theaters that you attend
> > regularly
> > > > > and when it is packed start Yelling Fire and see what happens. See
> > how
> > > > far
> > > > > your freedom of speech gets you.
> > > > >
> > > > > Vale,
> > > > >
> > > > > Sulla
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 4:09 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > **
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cato Sullae sal.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You are missing the point though, Sulla. It's nothing to do with
> > Latin.
> > > > > > What if we had a citizen who spoke only Latin and Portugese? They
> > must
> > > > > > learn English before they can speak in the Forum?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The whole point is that you *cannot* require something of a citizen
> > > > that
> > > > > > hinders their speech in the Forum, no matter how good or useful or
> > well
> > > > > > intentioned that requirement might be. The Constitution does not
> > allow
> > > > it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Vale bene,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cato
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robert Woolwine
> > <robert.woolwine@>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Ave!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This raises a good point, there are no NATIVE Latin speakers.
> > Latin
> > > > > > > speakers need to be fluent in some other language, French,
> > Spanish,
> > > > > > English
> > > > > > > etc etc. I do not know of ANYONE who only speaks Latin and thusly
> > > > would
> > > > > > > be inconvenienced by the English translation requirement. And, in
> > > > the end
> > > > > > > that is what the result is, not a curtailing of rights, but at
> > most a
> > > > > > > minor inconvenience. And, guess what I have rights in the US
> > that are
> > > > > > > regularly inconvenienced all the time. For example, when I go
> > buy a
> > > > gun,
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > have to go through a mandatory background check. In California, I
> > > > had to
> > > > > > > attend a hunter safety training class, yet per the Constitution
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > > US I
> > > > > > > have a right to bear arms. If I want to organize a protest I
> > must get
> > > > > > > licenses and permits to have such protests, despite the
> > Constitution
> > > > > > > stating I have the right to free speech and express.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Inconvenience does not equal removing someone's rights. As long
> > as
> > > > the
> > > > > > > venue is available, they can post in Esparanto, as long as an
> > English
> > > > > > > translation is provided!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Respectfully,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sulla
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 3:36 PM, Belle Morte Statia
> > > > > > > <syrenslullaby@>wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > **
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Sta. Cornelia Aeternia C. Equitio Catoni C. Petronio Dextro
> > sal:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Cato with no disrespect towards you, for you know I hold you in
> > > > high
> > > > > > > > regard. Is it fair to those who do not understand Latin so
> > well to
> > > > be
> > > > > > > > perpetually confused? Is a request for a English translation
> > that
> > > > > > > > difficult? I could understand better if say for example, Latin
> > was
> > > > > > > > completely banned entirely, then yes that would be beyond
> > unfair
> > > > and
> > > > > > > > unjust. I think Dexter's attempt was to establish clearer
> > channels
> > > > of
> > > > > > > > communication for the Forum in general, not to restrict
> > anyone's
> > > > > > freedom of
> > > > > > > > speech.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > However I do feel a small revision to the Edict should be
> > made, so
> > > > that
> > > > > > > > this issue is not raised again and we can move forward to
> > making
> > > > our
> > > > > > > > resrepublic a better place.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Vale Optime,
> > > > > > > > Aeternia
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 3:27 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > **
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Cato Petronio Dextero praetoris sal.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The issue of Latin's "value" should never have been
> > introduced,
> > > > and
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > another red herring; the point is that you are attempting to
> > > > place a
> > > > > > > > > restriction of the right of a citizen to speak freely in the
> > > > Forum in
> > > > > > > > > *whatever* language they want.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Just because Latin and English side by side may be a valuable
> > > > > > *teaching
> > > > > > > > > tool* does not validate the restriction attempted.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Vale bene,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Cato
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86763 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Ave!

And how do the Praetors determine what is clear and imminent danger if a
message is posted in Latin? Or Portuguese? Or Hebrew?

Vale,

Sulla

On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 5:42 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Cato Sullae sal.
>
> We already have a very clear restriction on free speech - it must not
> present an imminent and clear danger to the Respublica. That is what the
> Constitution says, and no other restriction is acceptable.
>
>
> Vale bene,
>
> Cato
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robert Woolwine <robert.woolwine@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Ave!
> >
> > Cato, again, you are saying free speech cannot be curtailed if it
> > contradicts written law..and I am saying it happens ALL the time. Again,
> > yelling fire in a movie theater....libel and slander laws....Permits for
> > protests...if you dont get the permit you can and will be arrested.
> >
> > My point is there is no such thing as absolutes as much as you wish it
> so,
> > it just isn't that way in the real world.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Sulla
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 5:38 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
> >
> > > **
> > >
> > >
> > > Cato Sullae sal.
> > >
> > > No, I am not. I am saying that you cannot hinder free speech if it
> > > contradicts written law.
> > >
> > > Your example posits a very real and very clear danger. Quite different
> > > from mine.
> > >
> > >
> > > Vale bene,
> > >
> > > Cato
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robert Woolwine <robert.woolwine@>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Ave!
> > > >
> > > > No, you are arguing free speech is absolute. I am saying, no its not
> and
> > > > here is an example.
> > > >
> > > > Vale,
> > > >
> > > > Sulla
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 4:24 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > **
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Cato Sullae sal.
> > > > >
> > > > > As the consul would say, you're comparing apples and oranges. Going
> > > into a
> > > > > crowded theater and yelling "Fire!" is illegal because it
> *endangers
> > > > > others* it causes "a clear and imminent danger" to those in the
> > > theater.
> > > > >
> > > > > Speaking in a language other than English in this Forum does *not*.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Vale bene,
> > > > >
> > > > > Cato
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robert Woolwine
> <robert.woolwine@>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ave!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Im not missing the point. I have free speech under the US
> > > Constitution.
> > > > > > But if I go to a crowded movie theater and YELL FIRE!!!! Guess
> > > what...I
> > > > > > find out there are limits to free speech pretty quick. I think
> you
> > > are
> > > > > > missing the point that there is NO such thing as absolute. Not in
> > > the US
> > > > > > not in Nova Roma. We give as wide of beerth as possible, and if
> > > there are
> > > > > > some minor inconveniences, they are at least minor!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I dare you, Cato, go into one of your theaters that you attend
> > > regularly
> > > > > > and when it is packed start Yelling Fire and see what happens.
> See
> > > how
> > > > > far
> > > > > > your freedom of speech gets you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Vale,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sulla
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 4:09 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > **
> > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Cato Sullae sal.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You are missing the point though, Sulla. It's nothing to do
> with
> > > Latin.
> > > > > > > What if we had a citizen who spoke only Latin and Portugese?
> They
> > > must
> > > > > > > learn English before they can speak in the Forum?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The whole point is that you *cannot* require something of a
> citizen
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > hinders their speech in the Forum, no matter how good or
> useful or
> > > well
> > > > > > > intentioned that requirement might be. The Constitution does
> not
> > > allow
> > > > > it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Vale bene,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Cato
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robert Woolwine
> > > <robert.woolwine@>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Ave!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > This raises a good point, there are no NATIVE Latin speakers.
> > > Latin
> > > > > > > > speakers need to be fluent in some other language, French,
> > > Spanish,
> > > > > > > English
> > > > > > > > etc etc. I do not know of ANYONE who only speaks Latin and
> thusly
> > > > > would
> > > > > > > > be inconvenienced by the English translation requirement.
> And, in
> > > > > the end
> > > > > > > > that is what the result is, not a curtailing of rights, but
> at
> > > most a
> > > > > > > > minor inconvenience. And, guess what I have rights in the US
> > > that are
> > > > > > > > regularly inconvenienced all the time. For example, when I go
> > > buy a
> > > > > gun,
> > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > have to go through a mandatory background check. In
> California, I
> > > > > had to
> > > > > > > > attend a hunter safety training class, yet per the
> Constitution
> > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > US I
> > > > > > > > have a right to bear arms. If I want to organize a protest I
> > > must get
> > > > > > > > licenses and permits to have such protests, despite the
> > > Constitution
> > > > > > > > stating I have the right to free speech and express.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Inconvenience does not equal removing someone's rights. As
> long
> > > as
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > venue is available, they can post in Esparanto, as long as an
> > > English
> > > > > > > > translation is provided!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Respectfully,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Sulla
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 3:36 PM, Belle Morte Statia
> > > > > > > > <syrenslullaby@>wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > **
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Sta. Cornelia Aeternia C. Equitio Catoni C. Petronio Dextro
> > > sal:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Cato with no disrespect towards you, for you know I hold
> you in
> > > > > high
> > > > > > > > > regard. Is it fair to those who do not understand Latin so
> > > well to
> > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > perpetually confused? Is a request for a English
> translation
> > > that
> > > > > > > > > difficult? I could understand better if say for example,
> Latin
> > > was
> > > > > > > > > completely banned entirely, then yes that would be beyond
> > > unfair
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > unjust. I think Dexter's attempt was to establish clearer
> > > channels
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > communication for the Forum in general, not to restrict
> > > anyone's
> > > > > > > freedom of
> > > > > > > > > speech.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > However I do feel a small revision to the Edict should be
> > > made, so
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > this issue is not raised again and we can move forward to
> > > making
> > > > > our
> > > > > > > > > resrepublic a better place.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Vale Optime,
> > > > > > > > > Aeternia
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 3:27 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > **
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Cato Petronio Dextero praetoris sal.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The issue of Latin's "value" should never have been
> > > introduced,
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > another red herring; the point is that you are
> attempting to
> > > > > place a
> > > > > > > > > > restriction of the right of a citizen to speak freely in
> the
> > > > > Forum in
> > > > > > > > > > *whatever* language they want.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Just because Latin and English side by side may be a
> valuable
> > > > > > > *teaching
> > > > > > > > > > tool* does not validate the restriction attempted.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Vale bene,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Cato
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86764 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Caesar Catoni sal.
 
Oh no, that one doesn't work either ... tossing out the old "ad hominem" line. Saying that I think it is more about the inconvience to yourself and that not providing a translation on those grounds is lazy, is not ad hominem. If it is you have been consistently guilty of it for 8 years - as has everyone else. Claiming "ad hominem" is bit of a slick way to avoid addressing the issue of what it is that has prompted you to oppose this, principle or inconvience.
 
I do think it is lazy. I do think it is a tempest in a teapot.
 
Optime vale.

From: Cato <catoinnyc@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 9, 2012 5:36 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE ROMAE (AKA MAIN LIST OR ML)


 
Cato Caesari consulis sal.

Unfortunate it is that we need to descend - so quickly - into ad hominem, Caesar, which you seem to be comfortable doing with increasing regularity these days.

Your response - besides having nothing to do with my (humorous) response to Sulla - was entirely incorrect (which you would know if you read what I have written) and unnecessarily rude.

If this to you is such a "tempest in a teapot", perhaps you'd be better served not responding at all. A better avenue to take than the road you're briskly treading now.

Vale bene,

Cato




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86765 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Cato Sullae sal.

Exactly. It is not *my* fault - or the fault of *any* citizen - that this language is not seemingly useful, and I cannot be punished for it by allowing the praetors to restrict my speech unconstitutionally.

But it is the language we have.

This is why I said that the lex Arminia Equitia de imperio should be invoked - it gives imperium-bearing magistrates authority to interpret the law within their spheres. Despite what Caesar says, I certainly invoked it during my consulship.

Now, the praetors would *first* have to declare that a message - any message - in a language other than English would, if not translated, present an imminent and clear danger in their interpretation of the law (which is essentially what this edict does anyway). Then they could legislate against it.

Vale bene,

Cato



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robert Woolwine <robert.woolwine@...> wrote:
>
> Ave!
>
> And how do the Praetors determine what is clear and imminent danger if a
> message is posted in Latin? Or Portuguese? Or Hebrew?
>
> Vale,
>
> Sulla
>
> On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 5:42 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Cato Sullae sal.
> >
> > We already have a very clear restriction on free speech - it must not
> > present an imminent and clear danger to the Respublica. That is what the
> > Constitution says, and no other restriction is acceptable.
> >
> >
> > Vale bene,
> >
> > Cato
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robert Woolwine <robert.woolwine@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Ave!
> > >
> > > Cato, again, you are saying free speech cannot be curtailed if it
> > > contradicts written law..and I am saying it happens ALL the time. Again,
> > > yelling fire in a movie theater....libel and slander laws....Permits for
> > > protests...if you dont get the permit you can and will be arrested.
> > >
> > > My point is there is no such thing as absolutes as much as you wish it
> > so,
> > > it just isn't that way in the real world.
> > >
> > > Vale,
> > >
> > > Sulla
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 5:38 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > >
> > > > **
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Cato Sullae sal.
> > > >
> > > > No, I am not. I am saying that you cannot hinder free speech if it
> > > > contradicts written law.
> > > >
> > > > Your example posits a very real and very clear danger. Quite different
> > > > from mine.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Vale bene,
> > > >
> > > > Cato
> > > >
> > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robert Woolwine <robert.woolwine@>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Ave!
> > > > >
> > > > > No, you are arguing free speech is absolute. I am saying, no its not
> > and
> > > > > here is an example.
> > > > >
> > > > > Vale,
> > > > >
> > > > > Sulla
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 4:24 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > **
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cato Sullae sal.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As the consul would say, you're comparing apples and oranges. Going
> > > > into a
> > > > > > crowded theater and yelling "Fire!" is illegal because it
> > *endangers
> > > > > > others* it causes "a clear and imminent danger" to those in the
> > > > theater.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Speaking in a language other than English in this Forum does *not*.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Vale bene,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cato
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robert Woolwine
> > <robert.woolwine@>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Ave!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Im not missing the point. I have free speech under the US
> > > > Constitution.
> > > > > > > But if I go to a crowded movie theater and YELL FIRE!!!! Guess
> > > > what...I
> > > > > > > find out there are limits to free speech pretty quick. I think
> > you
> > > > are
> > > > > > > missing the point that there is NO such thing as absolute. Not in
> > > > the US
> > > > > > > not in Nova Roma. We give as wide of beerth as possible, and if
> > > > there are
> > > > > > > some minor inconveniences, they are at least minor!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I dare you, Cato, go into one of your theaters that you attend
> > > > regularly
> > > > > > > and when it is packed start Yelling Fire and see what happens.
> > See
> > > > how
> > > > > > far
> > > > > > > your freedom of speech gets you.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Vale,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sulla
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 4:09 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > **
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Cato Sullae sal.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You are missing the point though, Sulla. It's nothing to do
> > with
> > > > Latin.
> > > > > > > > What if we had a citizen who spoke only Latin and Portugese?
> > They
> > > > must
> > > > > > > > learn English before they can speak in the Forum?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The whole point is that you *cannot* require something of a
> > citizen
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > hinders their speech in the Forum, no matter how good or
> > useful or
> > > > well
> > > > > > > > intentioned that requirement might be. The Constitution does
> > not
> > > > allow
> > > > > > it.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Vale bene,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Cato
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robert Woolwine
> > > > <robert.woolwine@>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Ave!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > This raises a good point, there are no NATIVE Latin speakers.
> > > > Latin
> > > > > > > > > speakers need to be fluent in some other language, French,
> > > > Spanish,
> > > > > > > > English
> > > > > > > > > etc etc. I do not know of ANYONE who only speaks Latin and
> > thusly
> > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > be inconvenienced by the English translation requirement.
> > And, in
> > > > > > the end
> > > > > > > > > that is what the result is, not a curtailing of rights, but
> > at
> > > > most a
> > > > > > > > > minor inconvenience. And, guess what I have rights in the US
> > > > that are
> > > > > > > > > regularly inconvenienced all the time. For example, when I go
> > > > buy a
> > > > > > gun,
> > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > have to go through a mandatory background check. In
> > California, I
> > > > > > had to
> > > > > > > > > attend a hunter safety training class, yet per the
> > Constitution
> > > > of
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > US I
> > > > > > > > > have a right to bear arms. If I want to organize a protest I
> > > > must get
> > > > > > > > > licenses and permits to have such protests, despite the
> > > > Constitution
> > > > > > > > > stating I have the right to free speech and express.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Inconvenience does not equal removing someone's rights. As
> > long
> > > > as
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > venue is available, they can post in Esparanto, as long as an
> > > > English
> > > > > > > > > translation is provided!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Respectfully,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Sulla
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 3:36 PM, Belle Morte Statia
> > > > > > > > > <syrenslullaby@>wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > **
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Sta. Cornelia Aeternia C. Equitio Catoni C. Petronio Dextro
> > > > sal:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Cato with no disrespect towards you, for you know I hold
> > you in
> > > > > > high
> > > > > > > > > > regard. Is it fair to those who do not understand Latin so
> > > > well to
> > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > perpetually confused? Is a request for a English
> > translation
> > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > difficult? I could understand better if say for example,
> > Latin
> > > > was
> > > > > > > > > > completely banned entirely, then yes that would be beyond
> > > > unfair
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > unjust. I think Dexter's attempt was to establish clearer
> > > > channels
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > communication for the Forum in general, not to restrict
> > > > anyone's
> > > > > > > > freedom of
> > > > > > > > > > speech.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > However I do feel a small revision to the Edict should be
> > > > made, so
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > this issue is not raised again and we can move forward to
> > > > making
> > > > > > our
> > > > > > > > > > resrepublic a better place.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Vale Optime,
> > > > > > > > > > Aeternia
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 3:27 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > **
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Cato Petronio Dextero praetoris sal.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > The issue of Latin's "value" should never have been
> > > > introduced,
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > another red herring; the point is that you are
> > attempting to
> > > > > > place a
> > > > > > > > > > > restriction of the right of a citizen to speak freely in
> > the
> > > > > > Forum in
> > > > > > > > > > > *whatever* language they want.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Just because Latin and English side by side may be a
> > valuable
> > > > > > > > *teaching
> > > > > > > > > > > tool* does not validate the restriction attempted.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Vale bene,
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Cato
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86766 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Ave,

Cato, I disagree with you, respectfully, the government ALL THE TIME
imposes clarifications and modifications that seemingly make rights more
complicated, every nation does this. Nova Roma is not doing anything
differently.

I have given you plenty examples of limits on free speech in the US. You
disagree, fine, we will just have to agree to disagree.

Respectfully,

Sulla

On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 6:10 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Cato Sullae sal.
>
> Exactly. It is not *my* fault - or the fault of *any* citizen - that this
> language is not seemingly useful, and I cannot be punished for it by
> allowing the praetors to restrict my speech unconstitutionally.
>
> But it is the language we have.
>
> This is why I said that the lex Arminia Equitia de imperio should be
> invoked - it gives imperium-bearing magistrates authority to interpret the
> law within their spheres. Despite what Caesar says, I certainly invoked it
> during my consulship.
>
> Now, the praetors would *first* have to declare that a message - any
> message - in a language other than English would, if not translated,
> present an imminent and clear danger in their interpretation of the law
> (which is essentially what this edict does anyway). Then they could
> legislate against it.
>
> Vale bene,
>
> Cato
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robert Woolwine <robert.woolwine@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Ave!
> >
> > And how do the Praetors determine what is clear and imminent danger if a
> > message is posted in Latin? Or Portuguese? Or Hebrew?
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Sulla
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 5:42 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
> >
> > > **
> > >
> > >
> > > Cato Sullae sal.
> > >
> > > We already have a very clear restriction on free speech - it must not
> > > present an imminent and clear danger to the Respublica. That is what
> the
> > > Constitution says, and no other restriction is acceptable.
> > >
> > >
> > > Vale bene,
> > >
> > > Cato
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robert Woolwine <robert.woolwine@>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Ave!
> > > >
> > > > Cato, again, you are saying free speech cannot be curtailed if it
> > > > contradicts written law..and I am saying it happens ALL the time.
> Again,
> > > > yelling fire in a movie theater....libel and slander laws....Permits
> for
> > > > protests...if you dont get the permit you can and will be arrested.
> > > >
> > > > My point is there is no such thing as absolutes as much as you wish
> it
> > > so,
> > > > it just isn't that way in the real world.
> > > >
> > > > Vale,
> > > >
> > > > Sulla
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 5:38 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > **
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Cato Sullae sal.
> > > > >
> > > > > No, I am not. I am saying that you cannot hinder free speech if it
> > > > > contradicts written law.
> > > > >
> > > > > Your example posits a very real and very clear danger. Quite
> different
> > > > > from mine.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Vale bene,
> > > > >
> > > > > Cato
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robert Woolwine
> <robert.woolwine@>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ave!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > No, you are arguing free speech is absolute. I am saying, no its
> not
> > > and
> > > > > > here is an example.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Vale,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sulla
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 4:24 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > **
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Cato Sullae sal.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > As the consul would say, you're comparing apples and oranges.
> Going
> > > > > into a
> > > > > > > crowded theater and yelling "Fire!" is illegal because it
> > > *endangers
> > > > > > > others* it causes "a clear and imminent danger" to those in the
> > > > > theater.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Speaking in a language other than English in this Forum does
> *not*.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Vale bene,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Cato
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robert Woolwine
> > > <robert.woolwine@>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Ave!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Im not missing the point. I have free speech under the US
> > > > > Constitution.
> > > > > > > > But if I go to a crowded movie theater and YELL FIRE!!!!
> Guess
> > > > > what...I
> > > > > > > > find out there are limits to free speech pretty quick. I
> think
> > > you
> > > > > are
> > > > > > > > missing the point that there is NO such thing as absolute.
> Not in
> > > > > the US
> > > > > > > > not in Nova Roma. We give as wide of beerth as possible, and
> if
> > > > > there are
> > > > > > > > some minor inconveniences, they are at least minor!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I dare you, Cato, go into one of your theaters that you
> attend
> > > > > regularly
> > > > > > > > and when it is packed start Yelling Fire and see what
> happens.
> > > See
> > > > > how
> > > > > > > far
> > > > > > > > your freedom of speech gets you.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Vale,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Sulla
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 4:09 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > **
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Cato Sullae sal.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > You are missing the point though, Sulla. It's nothing to do
> > > with
> > > > > Latin.
> > > > > > > > > What if we had a citizen who spoke only Latin and
> Portugese?
> > > They
> > > > > must
> > > > > > > > > learn English before they can speak in the Forum?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The whole point is that you *cannot* require something of a
> > > citizen
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > hinders their speech in the Forum, no matter how good or
> > > useful or
> > > > > well
> > > > > > > > > intentioned that requirement might be. The Constitution
> does
> > > not
> > > > > allow
> > > > > > > it.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Vale bene,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Cato
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robert Woolwine
> > > > > <robert.woolwine@>
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Ave!
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > This raises a good point, there are no NATIVE Latin
> speakers.
> > > > > Latin
> > > > > > > > > > speakers need to be fluent in some other language,
> French,
> > > > > Spanish,
> > > > > > > > > English
> > > > > > > > > > etc etc. I do not know of ANYONE who only speaks Latin
> and
> > > thusly
> > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > > be inconvenienced by the English translation requirement.
> > > And, in
> > > > > > > the end
> > > > > > > > > > that is what the result is, not a curtailing of rights,
> but
> > > at
> > > > > most a
> > > > > > > > > > minor inconvenience. And, guess what I have rights in
> the US
> > > > > that are
> > > > > > > > > > regularly inconvenienced all the time. For example, when
> I go
> > > > > buy a
> > > > > > > gun,
> > > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > have to go through a mandatory background check. In
> > > California, I
> > > > > > > had to
> > > > > > > > > > attend a hunter safety training class, yet per the
> > > Constitution
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > US I
> > > > > > > > > > have a right to bear arms. If I want to organize a
> protest I
> > > > > must get
> > > > > > > > > > licenses and permits to have such protests, despite the
> > > > > Constitution
> > > > > > > > > > stating I have the right to free speech and express.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Inconvenience does not equal removing someone's rights.
> As
> > > long
> > > > > as
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > venue is available, they can post in Esparanto, as long
> as an
> > > > > English
> > > > > > > > > > translation is provided!
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Respectfully,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Sulla
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 3:36 PM, Belle Morte Statia
> > > > > > > > > > <syrenslullaby@>wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > **
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Sta. Cornelia Aeternia C. Equitio Catoni C. Petronio
> Dextro
> > > > > sal:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Cato with no disrespect towards you, for you know I
> hold
> > > you in
> > > > > > > high
> > > > > > > > > > > regard. Is it fair to those who do not understand
> Latin so
> > > > > well to
> > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > perpetually confused? Is a request for a English
> > > translation
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > difficult? I could understand better if say for
> example,
> > > Latin
> > > > > was
> > > > > > > > > > > completely banned entirely, then yes that would be
> beyond
> > > > > unfair
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > unjust. I think Dexter's attempt was to establish
> clearer
> > > > > channels
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > communication for the Forum in general, not to restrict
> > > > > anyone's
> > > > > > > > > freedom of
> > > > > > > > > > > speech.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > However I do feel a small revision to the Edict should
> be
> > > > > made, so
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > this issue is not raised again and we can move forward
> to
> > > > > making
> > > > > > > our
> > > > > > > > > > > resrepublic a better place.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Vale Optime,
> > > > > > > > > > > Aeternia
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 3:27 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@>
> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > **
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Cato Petronio Dextero praetoris sal.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > The issue of Latin's "value" should never have been
> > > > > introduced,
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > another red herring; the point is that you are
> > > attempting to
> > > > > > > place a
> > > > > > > > > > > > restriction of the right of a citizen to speak
> freely in
> > > the
> > > > > > > Forum in
> > > > > > > > > > > > *whatever* language they want.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Just because Latin and English side by side may be a
> > > valuable
> > > > > > > > > *teaching
> > > > > > > > > > > > tool* does not validate the restriction attempted.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Vale bene,
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Cato
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86767 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Cato Caesari sal.

Then don't bother with it. Let your praetors stand up for their own edict. Simple. Less stress :)

Vale bene,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Iulius Caesar <gn_iulius_caesar@...> wrote:
>
> Caesar Catoni sal.
>  
> Oh no, that one doesn't work either ... tossing out the old "ad hominem" line. Saying that I think it is more about the inconvience to yourself and that not providing a translation on those grounds is lazy, is not ad hominem. If it is you have been consistently guilty of it for 8 years - as has everyone else. Claiming "ad hominem" is bit of a slick way to avoid addressing the issue of what it is that has prompted you to oppose this, principle or inconvience.
>  
> I do think it is lazy. I do think it is a tempest in a teapot.
>  
> Optime vale.
>
> From: Cato <catoinnyc@...>
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, January 9, 2012 5:36 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE ROMAE (AKA MAIN LIST OR ML)
>
>
>  
> Cato Caesari consulis sal.
>
> Unfortunate it is that we need to descend - so quickly - into ad hominem, Caesar, which you seem to be comfortable doing with increasing regularity these days.
>
> Your response - besides having nothing to do with my (humorous) response to Sulla - was entirely incorrect (which you would know if you read what I have written) and unnecessarily rude.
>
> If this to you is such a "tempest in a teapot", perhaps you'd be better served not responding at all. A better avenue to take than the road you're briskly treading now.
>
> Vale bene,
>
> Cato
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86768 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Ave!

You mean the People's Praetors since the People voted them in, right?

Vale,

Sulla

On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 6:26 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Cato Caesari sal.
>
> Then don't bother with it. Let your praetors stand up for their own edict.
> Simple. Less stress :)
>
> Vale bene,
>
> Cato
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Iulius Caesar <gn_iulius_caesar@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Caesar Catoni sal.
> > �
> > Oh no, that one doesn't work either ... tossing out the old "ad hominem"
> line. Saying that I think it is more about the inconvience to yourself and
> that not providing a translation on those grounds is lazy, is not ad
> hominem. If it is you have been consistently guilty of it for 8 years - as
> has everyone else.� Claiming "ad hominem"� is bit of a� slick way to avoid
> addressing the issue of what it is that has prompted you to oppose this,
> principle or inconvience.
> > �
>
> > I do think it is lazy. I do think it is a tempest in a teapot.
> > �
>
> > Optime vale.
> >
> > From: Cato <catoinnyc@...>
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Monday, January 9, 2012 5:36 PM
> > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION
> OF THE FORUM NOVAE ROMAE (AKA MAIN LIST OR ML)
> >
> >
> > �
> > Cato Caesari consulis sal.
> >
> > Unfortunate it is that we need to descend - so quickly - into ad
> hominem, Caesar, which you seem to be comfortable doing with increasing
> regularity these days.
> >
> > Your response - besides having nothing to do with my (humorous) response
> to Sulla - was entirely incorrect (which you would know if you read what I
> have written) and unnecessarily rude.
> >
> > If this to you is such a "tempest in a teapot", perhaps you'd be better
> served not responding at all. A better avenue to take than the road you're
> briskly treading now.
> >
> > Vale bene,
> >
> > Cato
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86769 From: Belle Morte Statia Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Sta. Cornelia Aeternia C. Equitio Catoni Sullae sal:


As much as I feel this may boil down to a wording issue for you, and I
also understand you are concerned about being moderated for no reason as
you were in 2010. Since then your posts when you have posted were not
moderated at all, and you know I'd never let you be moderated be without a
serious infraction being taken place (I'd fight tooth and nail against it
actually). I guess what I'm trying to understand how this restricts your
freedom of speech? Can you give a clear example? So that we can
understand your point-of-view better?

I'm not trying to stir the cauldron, I'm trying to get inside your head for
a moment, so we can look for a starting point towards compromise and to get
my colleague on board for revision.


Vale Optime,
Aeternia

On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 6:10 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Cato Sullae sal.
>
> Exactly. It is not *my* fault - or the fault of *any* citizen - that this
> language is not seemingly useful, and I cannot be punished for it by
> allowing the praetors to restrict my speech unconstitutionally.
>
> But it is the language we have.
>
> This is why I said that the lex Arminia Equitia de imperio should be
> invoked - it gives imperium-bearing magistrates authority to interpret the
> law within their spheres. Despite what Caesar says, I certainly invoked it
> during my consulship.
>
> Now, the praetors would *first* have to declare that a message - any
> message - in a language other than English would, if not translated,
> present an imminent and clear danger in their interpretation of the law
> (which is essentially what this edict does anyway). Then they could
> legislate against it.
>
> Vale bene,
>
> Cato
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86770 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Cato Sullae sal.

LOL yes, the praetors are the People's praetors. I don't know what that has to do with anything. They should still stick up for their own edict. If the consul finds it so taxing to continue the discussion - if we are wasting his time doing so - he can simply stop talking about it and let the praetors do it.

Neither of the praetors has found it necessary to attack anyone personally so far, so they are a step ahead of the consul as it is.

Vale bene,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robert Woolwine <robert.woolwine@...> wrote:
>
> Ave!
>
> You mean the People's Praetors since the People voted them in, right?
>
> Vale,
>
> Sulla
>
> On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 6:26 PM, Cato <catoinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Cato Caesari sal.
> >
> > Then don't bother with it. Let your praetors stand up for their own edict.
> > Simple. Less stress :)
> >
> > Vale bene,
> >
> > Cato
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Iulius Caesar <gn_iulius_caesar@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Caesar Catoni sal.
> > > Â
> > > Oh no, that one doesn't work either ... tossing out the old "ad hominem"
> > line. Saying that I think it is more about the inconvience to yourself and
> > that not providing a translation on those grounds is lazy, is not ad
> > hominem. If it is you have been consistently guilty of it for 8 years - as
> > has everyone else. Claiming "ad hominem" is bit of a slick way to avoid
> > addressing the issue of what it is that has prompted you to oppose this,
> > principle or inconvience.
> > > Â
> >
> > > I do think it is lazy. I do think it is a tempest in a teapot.
> > > Â
> >
> > > Optime vale.
> > >
> > > From: Cato <catoinnyc@>
> > > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Monday, January 9, 2012 5:36 PM
> > > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION
> > OF THE FORUM NOVAE ROMAE (AKA MAIN LIST OR ML)
> > >
> > >
> > > Â
> > > Cato Caesari consulis sal.
> > >
> > > Unfortunate it is that we need to descend - so quickly - into ad
> > hominem, Caesar, which you seem to be comfortable doing with increasing
> > regularity these days.
> > >
> > > Your response - besides having nothing to do with my (humorous) response
> > to Sulla - was entirely incorrect (which you would know if you read what I
> > have written) and unnecessarily rude.
> > >
> > > If this to you is such a "tempest in a teapot", perhaps you'd be better
> > served not responding at all. A better avenue to take than the road you're
> > briskly treading now.
> > >
> > > Vale bene,
> > >
> > > Cato
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 86771 From: Cato Date: 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: PRAETORIAL EDICT CPD StCVIA 65-01: MODERATION OF THE FORUM NOVAE
Cato Corneliae Aeterniae sal.

It's much simpler than that, but thank you for asking.

If a citizen is not comfortable enough using English but can express themselves in another language, why should they not be free to speak? The Constitution guarantees them access to our public fora *without* restriction (with the one very specific exception), and a praetorial edict is subject to the legal authority of the Constitution.

Whether or not it would be "instructive" to post both English and Latin is of no consequence whatsoever. How the consul feels about cutting-and-pasting Latin quotations is of even less importance.

What is important is that the rights of the citizens, guaranteed by the Constitution, be upheld, *even if* they are slightly more cumbersome for the magistrates involved. I have *always* said this, and I will always say it.

If the praetors decide to issue an edict in which posting in a foreign (non-English, sorry) language presents a clear and imminent danger to the Respublica, then they can proceed to act as if it is. Until such time, acting as if it does already violates the letter and the spirit of the Constitution.

Vale bene,

Cato