On 2/22/2012 10:26 PM, Cato wrote:
>
> Cato Cornelio Mentori omnibusque in foro SPD
>
> The Senate is, even now, talking about things just like the website
> etc. Although it may seem like not much is happening, there really is.
> We are coming gradually out of a slump.
>
> I totally agree vis-a-vis the mechanics of chat, posts, etc., found
> even in Google Groups; Caecilius Metellus and I were talking at some
> length a couple of months ago about this very thing. Give ideas here
> in the Forum!
>
> "If you are looking for ways to grow Nova Roma then listen to what the
> new members are telling you."
>
> Truer words can hardly be spoken.
>
> One thing I've tried to do is continually post the calendar so that we
> are reminded of the festivals and observances of the Roman year both
> saecular and sacred. I very strongly encourage especially new members
> to post information - or requests for information - here on any
> subject regarding Rome and her history.
>
> There are a lot of people who know a lot of stuff hanging out here -
> even some of the grumpy ones :)
>
> Vale et valete bene,
>
> Cato
>
>

--


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Yehya" <yehya_61@...> wrote:

[SNIP]

On 2/22/2012 10:36 PM, Yehya wrote:
>
> Salve!
>
> "I think I am on about 80 Yahoo lists, and I do not have time to visit
> the sites of all of them, or even most of them.
> Some of our citizens have pointed this out; we prefer e-mail. Such a
> system might work for the newest citizens who may be on one or two
> lists, but it is not helpful for those who are (or were) magistrates
> and have been here a while. Perhaps something like New Roman or the
> Forum Hospitum could be set up in such a fashion for the newer
> citizens, several of whom have asked about this system over the years.
> You are not the first, and won't be the last, but it just doesn't work
> well for most of us."
>
> In the end it depends on what your strategic vision is, both for a
> public forum and Nova Roma as a whole.
>
> If, as I said, you view a public forum as a vehicle for growth and
> promotion of Nova Roma an email list such as this is counter
> productive. A message board with sections would allow people who are
> interested in, say, ancient Roman cooking, to explore those aspects
> and at the same time be exposed to the larger concept of Nova Roma in
> a way a group such as this never will. Yes I don't have a long history
> in Nova Roma but I do have quite a bit of experience in IT operations,
> retail selling, and some in marketing. And Nova Roma appears, to me,
> to be sadly lacking in marketing.
>
> If you want to grow Nova Roma, if you want to increase the tax base
> which would not only lower the individual rates but increase revenue
> which is necessary to support not only current operations but allow
> for future growth, you need a strategic plan that accomplishes these
> tasks.
>
> As Nova Roma is primarily, for now, an internet based community then
> your main vehicle for communication is neither current or vibrant but
> instead presents an image of somewhat amateurish dalliance.
>
> Let me say this again. As an internet based community your main method
> of presenting yourself to the public is one that demonstrates you
> aren't really serious about yourselves. (Or perhaps a bit too serious
> about yourselves)
>
> If instead you see it as a convenient vehicle for a small group of
> those who have "been here a while" to talk among themselves it works
> fine. As you said it works for a small group to talk among themselves.
>
> If I were to approach this discussion as a business analysis (and with
> 30+ years experience that is how I approach most discussion such as
> this) I would ask what is your strategic vision for Nova Roma and how
> does your current communication strategy support that strategic vision?
>
> The whole range of conversations over the past few days has left me a
> bit puzzled as there seems to be a curious combination of a longing to
> grow and develop and an unwillingness to discuss changes to make that
> happen. Plans don't grow if you are afraid the fertilizer smells and
> do not use it.
>
> I am not trying to be critical but instead understand what is the goal
> of the organization.
>
> Does it only exist for its long term members or is it a dynamic group
> seeking to expand?
>
> Is it a Latin debating society seeking to impress one another with
> command of a historically vitally important but now somewhat defunct
> language, or one that seeks to recognize and implement the many
> contributions Rome gave to the world from the separation of powers
> concept that the American system of government (among others) was
> based on to so many other disciplines that have meaning in today's world?
>
> I don't read, speak, or write Latin and probably never will but the
> concepts of citizenship, Dignitas, Virtus, and many others the ancient
> Romans had are sadly lacking in today's society and are ones I respect
> and seek to emulate.
>
> Does this mean I have no place in Nova Roma?
>
> Or that Nova Roma is the correct place to develop and promote these
> disciplines and concepts?
>
> Yes I agree change is not comfortable but organizations that don't
> change wither and die.
>
> My current department head (from Italy) kept a sign on his desk for
> years stating (from memory) "Rome wasn't built by having meetings and
> forming committee's but by killing everyone that opposed them". In
> other words it wasn't built by being comfortable.
>
> What I think you need to do as an organization is clearly define your
> goals, your strategic vision or mission statement, if you will, and
> then review every policy not from a matter of convenience but whether
> or not it supports that vision. Those policies, or infrastructures,
> that support that vision should be supported, and those that do not
> should be ruthlessly purged.
>
> Vale!
>
> _



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 2/22/2012 11:29 PM, Belle Morte Statia wrote:
>
> Sta. Cornelia Aeternia Omnibus in foro S.P.D.
>
> Via the previous discussion mentioned by Scholastica, in a rare moment of
> free time. Wasn't as hard to find as I thought (I sucessfully survived
> Ephermeris) listening to it now and this is awesome!
>
> http://yle.fi/radio1/tiede/nuntii_latini/
>
> Enjoy.
>
> Vale Optime,
> Aeternia
>
> --
> "*Feri pastorem, et oves se dispergent*"
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

--


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
> A. Tullia Scholastica Statiae Corneliae Aeterniae quiritibus bonae voluntatis
> S.P.D.
>
>
>
> Sta. Cornelia Aeternia Omnibus in foro S.P.D.
>
> Via the previous discussion mentioned by Scholastica, in a rare moment of
> free time. Wasn't as hard to find as I thought (I sucessfully survived
> Ephermeris) listening to it now and this is awesome!
>
> ATS: See, you CAN do this! It IS awesome! I used to be able to hear the
> audio portion, but this computer is less cooperative than my last one. They
> also have a message board or whatever, as you may have discovered...
>
>
> http://yle.fi/radio1/tiede/nuntii_latini/
>
> Enjoy.
>
> ATS: Indeed!
>
> Vale Optime,
> Aeternia
>
> Vale, et valete, optime!

>> Salve, Mento.
>>
>> Salve Tullia,
>>
>> I don't know where you're from but I am insulted by your anti-Americanism. 
>> You're the only person on Nova Roma I've seen who has a problem with
>> language.  Lighten up.
>>
>> ATS: I¹m from Vulcan, but reside in the US of A, toward which I bear no
>> ill will. If you had been here longer, you might have been aware that we
>> have some people here who suffer from the delusion that English is the only
>> suitable language and North American (or at best, English-speaking) culture
>> is the only appropriate one; my views are rather more all-encompassing.
>> Every culture has its problems, and its good points.
>>
>> Several of us dislike the current language policies, but some prefer to
>> keep quiet. You haven¹t heard or seen the insults heaped on people who use
>> their native languages, even well-known ones commonly taught in schools, or
>> on people who converse in Latin. You haven¹t heard or seen the ridicule
>> hurled at people whose English wasn¹t the best. I have.
>>
>>
>>
>> Gratias tibi ago!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> D. Mento
>>
>> Vale.
>>
>> On 2/22/2012 5:10 PM, A. Tullia Scholastica wrote:
>>>  
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> > ATS: I suspect that you are right there, Livia. There are far too many
>>>> > people here who do indeed defend their right to be ignorant, notably
>>>> about
>>>> > languages other than English and cultures other than American.
>>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

On 2/23/2012 12:14 AM, A. Tullia Scholastica wrote:
>
>
>
> >> Salve, Mento.
> >>
> >> Salve Tullia,
> >>
> >> I don't know where you're from but I am insulted by your
> anti-Americanism.
> >> You're the only person on Nova Roma I've seen who has a problem with
> >> language. Lighten up.
> >>
> >> ATS: I¹m from Vulcan, but reside in the US of A, toward which I bear no
> >> ill will. If you had been here longer, you might have been aware
> that we
> >> have some people here who suffer from the delusion that English is
> the only
> >> suitable language and North American (or at best, English-speaking)
> culture
> >> is the only appropriate one; my views are rather more all-encompassing.
> >> Every culture has its problems, and its good points.
> >>
> >> Several of us dislike the current language policies, but some prefer to
> >> keep quiet. You haven¹t heard or seen the insults heaped on people
> who use
> >> their native languages, even well-known ones commonly taught in
> schools, or
> >> on people who converse in Latin. You haven¹t heard or seen the ridicule
> >> hurled at people whose English wasn¹t the best. I have.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Gratias tibi ago!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> D. Mento
> >>
> >> Vale.
> >>
> >> On 2/22/2012 5:10 PM, A. Tullia Scholastica wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> > ATS: I suspect that you are right there, Livia. There are far
> too many
> >>>> > people here who do indeed defend their right to be ignorant,
> notably
> >>>> about
> >>>> > languages other than English and cultures other than American.
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 2/22/2012 5:10 PM, A. Tullia Scholastica wrote:
>
>
> > ATS: I suspect that you are right there, Livia. There are far too many
> > people here who do indeed defend their right to be ignorant, notably
> about
> > languages other than English and cultures other than American.
> >
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Salvete http://www.eaglerings.com/SPQR_Ring.htm Here is the Nova Roman ring

> that has been on sale for a number of years. We will be ordering a new run of

> Nova Roman flags and maybe tee shirts soon.

>> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com

>> CC: luciaiuliaaquila@...

>> From: decimuscorneliusmento@...

>> Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 10:51:55 -0500

>> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] What does Nova Roma Mean to You? Re: De Foro Romano.

>>

>> I am very disappointed with my Nova Roma experience. There is a lack

>> solidarity and humor here.

>>

>> Weren�t the Aediles responsible for public festivals? Where are the

>> organized meet ups or celebrations?

>>

>> What is it with this non existent online chariot racing I�m supposed to

>> be getting excited over? Why not just meet up at the OTB or race track

>> and each color back a horse and pool their bets? Or just watch the

>> Belmont Stakes or Preakness on TV and do the same thing? That will make

>> things more interesting.

>>

>> I fail to understand why there isn�t a real forum site with posting

>> boards and chat rooms for us to get to. We could all watch a TV show

>> together and post in real time, etc. And chatting, like language

>> immersion, will get our Latin acumen up. Yahoo mail is the best free

>> mail out there, but their groups are ugly and clumsy. It�s not that

>> expensive. Nova Roma without it�s own online FORUM, how ironic.

>>

>> I�d be reluctant to pay �taxes� until I see some value in this, but why

>> you aren�t selling hats, flags, rings, jewelry, clothing with Nova Roma

>> branding is inconceivable. I�d buy a ton of that stuff.

>>

>> I am timid about posting with the humorless Tullia Scholastica floating

>> out there waiting to pounce upon any incorrect Latin with large font

>> graffiti style postings. So if I don�t have time to translate a quick

>> joke or something of interest properly I just don�t post it. Learn how

>> to use the line out and highlight function Tullia, it�ll make your

>> ceaseless fortitude more readable.

>>

>> Nova Roma is not what I hoped it would be.

>>

>>

>> Vale, et valete,

>>

>> D. Mento

>>

>>

>>

>> On 2/20/2012 11:16 PM, luciaiuliaaquila wrote:

>>>

>>> Iulia Quiritibus S.P.D.

>>>

>>> The discussion about finances, taxes and profits brought to mind a few

>>> questions. And comments.

>>> I keep hearing we don't have a product to "sell" - no value added

>>> incentive to encourage people to pay their taxes.

>>> In the past we did have a value added incentive. We had vision. We had

>>> dreams that varied from citizen to citizen as to how NR would impact

>>> their lives. Many of us thought we might someday be living as New

>>> Romans in a New Roman community � and that meant something different

>>> to each citizen.

>>> That idea of community varied vastly from individual to individual. A

>>> few hold out that this could still be a reality. Some were, and are,

>>> happy to practice and incorporate Romanitas in their own lives. Some

>>> were, and are, weekend reconstructionists.

>>> But we all, well most, had that vision for NR whether or not we lived

>>> in a physical Nova Roma.

>>>

>>> We were so busy skirmishing that few thought to look to the future and

>>> those that had their proposals die in infancy, never to take the first

>>> breath.

>>>

>>> After being in Nova Roma for a short while I was told by a very good

>>> friend:

>>> "Nova Roma eats her own."

>>> I've seen it so many times in the past I have lost count. Nova Roma

>>> has feasted well at that smorgasbord.

>>>

>>> So now here we stand almost back at square one, rebuilding our

>>> foundation and yet we still do not have a goal that we can all agree on..

>>>

>>> It's not good enough to say we can save the profits. Personally I

>>> think a small membership fee should accompany each application � it

>>> will have more value to the applicant. We have to have a definitive

>>> plan and a specific tangible goal(s) for the profit.

>>>

>>> That is value added incentive.

>>>

>>> I ask each of my fellow citizens what does Nova Roma mean to you?

>>> What is your goal in Nova Roma?

>>> Where would you like to see her in 10 years?

>>>

>>> We have to contemplate those questions.

>>> Because first we have to know just what it is we want, then decide

>>> what is realistic, then set goals that will benefit from the profit.

>>>

>>> Julia

>>> Nasburgi Scribebat

>>> prid. Id. Feb � Cn. Caesare C. Tullio cos. � MMDCCLXV

>>>

>>> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>,

>>> "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@...> wrote:

>>>>

>>>> C. Petronius Dexter omnibus Quiritibus salutem,

>>>>

>>>> It is possible that the new citizens joining the Main List feel

>>> something odd with the apparent calm which seems closer to a sort of

>>> death.

>>>>

>>>> Nova Roma is in a sort of crossroad and obviously the senators and

>>> the magistrates are more preoccupated in working to find solutions

>>> than to speak on the main list.

>>>>

>>>> My fellow new citizens, you have to understand that for the moment

>>> we have Senate's meetings very important. The tribunes gave you the

>>> agenda of the current meeting. They have given you too the results of

>>> the votes in the last meeting of January. I ask you to read the

>>> Tribune report. I want to hear your advices in this Forum. More we

>>> will have debates and discusses more we will be able to find solutions

>>> fair towards each of us.

>>>>

>>>> A big problem of Nova Roma is to survive with enough money mainly to

>>> pay the website location and to pay a voting place per year with less

>>> citizens every year paying their taxes. We have too to pay debts of

>>> the last years. The amount of Nova Roma's expenses is $3915,00 as you

>>> may know it in reading the tribune's report.

>>>>

>>>> My opinion is:

>>>> More we will be, less we will pay.

>>>>

>>>> Last Nova Roma's census shows us that the big majority of the

>>> citizens, called capite censi, pay nothing. My opinion is that the

>>> citizenship must have a price. My proposal is $24,00 per year. Id est

>>> $2,00 per month.

>>>>

>>>> So if any citizen, the current 125 taxpayers (assidui) and the 370

>>> free of taxes (capite censi) pay each $24,00 for the year 2012, Nova

>>> Roma will have $11 880,00 for a provided yearly expenses of $3915,00.

>>>>

>>>> As we do not need to make such profit, if you want all to pay your

>>> citizenship tax, we must make it lower.

>>>>

>>>> As Nova Roma needs $3915,00 for existing this year, if all the 495

>>> citizens pay their tax, a tax of $8,00 will suffice.

>>>>

>>>> Are you ready, my fellow citizens, to pay $8,00 for the existence of

>>> Nova Roma? I want to know your advices. This Main List is yours. You

>>> have the right to freely speak. Use it.

>>>>

>>>> Invade the Forum. Give your points of view! Are you trully

>>> interested in Nova Roma goals? Do you want that Nova Roma continues?

>>> Do you share the dream to make it a reality?

>>>>

>>>> Read, please, the Declaration of the founders:

>>>> http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Declaration_(Nova_Roma)

>>>> and make it your!

>>>>

>>>> Optime valete.

>>>>

>>>> C. Petronius Dexter

>>>> Arcoiali scribebat

>>>> XII Kalendas Martias Cn. Caesare C. Tullio coss.

>>>

>>

>>

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robin Marquardt <remarq777@...> wrote:
<snip>>

> Io parla Americano is Latin for "I SPEAK AMERICAN."

Salve, et salvete omnes

Or possibly that should read "Parlo Americano"

Vale, et valete omnes
Crispus.
(A Brit who does actually speak English)

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robin Marquardt <remarq777@...> wrote:
<snip>>

> Io parla Americano is Latin for "I SPEAK AMERICAN."

Salve, et salvete omnes

Or possibly that should read "Parlo Americano"

Vale, et valete omnes
Crispus.
(A Brit who does actually speak English)




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Robin Marquardt <remarq777@...> wrote:
<snip>>

> Io parla Americano is Latin for "I SPEAK AMERICAN."

Salve, et salvete omnes

Or possibly that should read "Parlo Americano"

Vale, et valete omnes
Crispus.
(A Brit who does actually speak English)




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Ave!
>
> I see no sense in going into detail much like you chose not to go into
> greater detail about Audens. ;)
>
> Vale,
>
> Sulla
>
> On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 4:40 PM, L. Livia Plauta
> <livia.plauta@...>wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>>
>>
>> So what did you hear, Sulla? Will I be able to publicize RPR as the place
>> where your dollar is double worth, because it will get infinitely
>> multiplied
>> in hearsay?
>>
>>
>> > Ave!
>> >
>> > Not what I heard. ;)
>> >
>> > Vale,
>> >
>> > Sulla
>> >
>> > On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 4:08 PM, L. Livia Plauta
>> > <livia.plauta@...>wrote:
>> >
>> >> Wow, I love this! It's so great to be mentioned as a "funding source"
>> >> after
>> >> a $ 20 donation. It makes me feel so important! Thanks!
>> >>
>> >> > Ave!
>> >> >
>> >> > Mento, just ignore livia too. lol She has a vested reason to do her
>> >> > best
>> >> > to criticize NR, she is one of the funding sources of the RPR, or so
>> >> > I
>> >> > have
>> >> > been told. Just like her outing of Audens, there is always a motive
>> >> > behind
>> >> > her messages.
>> >> >
>> >> > Vale,
>> >> >
>> >> > Sulla
>> >> >
>> >> > On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 9:30 AM, D. Cornelius Mento <
>> >> > decimuscorneliusmento@...> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> **
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Oh my!
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Livia, what was that for?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Who's being presumptuous? I was asking not to be attacked for a
>> >> >> light-hearted posting I was asked to start by the higher ups. It
>> >> >> was
>> >> >> presumptuous of Tullia to grade my posting like a term paper and
>> when
>> >> >> I
>> >> >> asked her not to do such obnoxious things she got high handed.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> So, if I invite you to a party, I'm allowed to publicly criticize
>> your
>> >> >> dress, Livia?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> So what you're saying is stumbling beginner Latin speakers are not
>> >> >> welcome here?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Good going, Livia.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> D. Mento
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On 2/22/2012 6:27 AM, L. Livia Plauta wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Salve Mento,
>> >> >> > presumptuous people who defend their right to be ignorant are one
>> of
>> >> >> > the
>> >> >> > types of people who caused the decline of Nova Roma.
>> >> >> > In fact, I think you fit in here much better than Tullia
>> Scholastica
>> >> >> does.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Vale,
>> >> >> > Livia
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > ------------------------------------
>> >> >
>> >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> Yahoo! Groups Links
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

On Feb 23, 2012, at 4:11 PM, "L. Livia Plauta" <livia.plauta@...> wrote:

>
> Oh, if you want detail about Audens, the recent news is that he resigned his
> post as senator in RPR in order to stay in NR.
>
>> Ave!
>>
>> I see no sense in going into detail much like you chose not to go into
>> greater detail about Audens. ;)
>>
>> Vale,
>>
>> Sulla
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 4:40 PM, L. Livia Plauta
>> <livia.plauta@...>wrote:
>>
>>> **
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So what did you hear, Sulla? Will I be able to publicize RPR as the place
>>> where your dollar is double worth, because it will get infinitely
>>> multiplied
>>> in hearsay?
>>>
>>>
>>>> Ave!
>>>>
>>>> Not what I heard. ;)
>>>>
>>>> Vale,
>>>>
>>>> Sulla
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 4:08 PM, L. Livia Plauta
>>>> <livia.plauta@...>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Wow, I love this! It's so great to be mentioned as a "funding source"
>>>>> after
>>>>> a $ 20 donation. It makes me feel so important! Thanks!
>>>>>
>>>>>> Ave!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mento, just ignore livia too. lol She has a vested reason to do her
>>>>>> best
>>>>>> to criticize NR, she is one of the funding sources of the RPR, or so
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> been told. Just like her outing of Audens, there is always a motive
>>>>>> behind
>>>>>> her messages.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Vale,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sulla
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 9:30 AM, D. Cornelius Mento <
>>>>>> decimuscorneliusmento@...> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> **
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Oh my!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Livia, what was that for?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Who's being presumptuous? I was asking not to be attacked for a
>>>>>>> light-hearted posting I was asked to start by the higher ups. It
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>> presumptuous of Tullia to grade my posting like a term paper and
>>> when
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> asked her not to do such obnoxious things she got high handed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, if I invite you to a party, I'm allowed to publicly criticize
>>> your
>>>>>>> dress, Livia?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So what you're saying is stumbling beginner Latin speakers are not
>>>>>>> welcome here?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Good going, Livia.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> D. Mento
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2/22/2012 6:27 AM, L. Livia Plauta wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Salve Mento,
>>>>>>>> presumptuous people who defend their right to be ignorant are one
>>> of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> types of people who caused the decline of Nova Roma.
>>>>>>>> In fact, I think you fit in here much better than Tullia
>>> Scholastica
>>>>>>> does.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Vale,
>>>>>>>> Livia
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

>>> It is really intriguing to hear people speaking in fluent Latin,<<<

>
> A. Tullia Scholastica C. Petronio Dextro quiritibus bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
>
>
>
> C. Petronius Laelio Silvano salutem,
>
>>>> >>> It is really intriguing to hear people speaking in fluent Latin,<<<
>
> Not fluent, they read their texts and with a terrible Northern (Barbarian)
> pronunciation. :-D
>
> ATS: They are reading the news, not speaking extemporaneously as were the
> many speakers in the video I showed you at conventus...when YOU thought that
> they, too, were reading, though they were not. Secondly, their pronunciation
> has features in common with the Italian pronunciation of Latin, commonly (but
> incorrectly) known as Church Latin; like the Italians, they pronounce v as
> English v, not English w, and ae as English long a, not as English eye, which
> are closer to the ancient and the restituta pronunciations. Otherwise their
> pronunciation is quite good, and unlike the sound files for Assimil, has
> audible h¹s and r¹s. I could comment more fully on that if I could replay
> these files, but it seems that I am limited to listening in bursts as the
> files download.
>
> As far as the Romans were concerned, ALL of us are barbarians who mutilate
> their language. It¹s just that some are more talented at making ragout of
> Latin than are others. Some of us try to use the restituta and correct
> grammar, while others pride themselves on doing the opposite.
>
> I wonder how Cicero would hear that.
>
> Probably the same way he would hear the Assimil files, or the discussions
> of the Circulus Lutetiensis, or the Matritensis, or any of them...consider
> rather how he would feel if we showed him the texts of the Catilinarians and
> his other works, still with us after all of these centuries.
>
> But it is a good tentative to make Latin language a living language.
>
> ATS: Yes, and there are many other efforts in that direction. Too bad NR
> prefers to remain ignorant and shove Latin under the rug.
>
> It seems that some people want to have Latin as a language unscribed to
> UNESCO and perhaps a future EU language. Some are advocating for that. It is
> indeed sheaper to have 1 language than 20 in EU, and Latin is already a
> historical international language.
>
> ATS: Yes; no doubt it would be cheaper, and easier as well. It does
> indeed make better sense for the EU and other international organizations to
> use Latin, especially since at least 60% of English vocabulary is
> Latin-derived, and the percentage is no doubt higher in the Romance languages.
> The difference is that some of the Romance language grammar is Latin as well,
> whereas English lost virtually all of what Germanic grammar it inherited. I
> move that we get some practice here and write in Latin sine versionibus;
> immersion works, but ponies do not. Only the most advanced can benefit from
> the occasional use of ponies; others use them continuously as crutches, and
> never learn the target language.
>
> Vale optime.
>
> C. Petronius Dexter
> Arcoiali scribebat
> a. d. VI Kalendas Martias Cn. Caesare C. Tullio coss.
>
> Vale optime!
>
>

>>> It is really intriguing to hear people speaking in fluent Latin,<<<

> Hodiernus dies est ante diem VI Kalendas Martias; hic dies nefastus est.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Yehya" <yehya_61@...> wrote:
>
> Salve
>
> "Interesting posting, showing enthusiasm and reflexion. Consider my answers as a contribution, or food for thoughts if you wish."
>
> Excellent answer. What I wanted to do was start the conversation not direct it and I don't mind someone picking what I write apart or looking at a different way.
>
> Spanish is definitely a language on the way up, as demographics in Central and South America alone show, and a language I, for one, think should be taught as a mandatory second in US American schools. +
>
> But it would take someone with more knowledge than I have about the internals of NR membership to assess the potential of NR penetration into Central or South America versus Europe and North America.
>
> A comprehensive plan would need to be based more on the one factor I cited but demographics, language, geographic areas, and a host of other factors. I could as easily picked geographics and history and suggested a focus on Europe and then North America although it would beg the question of what is the one closest thing to a universal European language (if you only spoke one language what language would you be most likely to easily find someone else who speaks it in every country you visited in Europe?)
>
> And although I completely agree with your comments about the original language we learn I would hazard a guess that far more people speak English as a second language (around 1.4 to 1.5 billion of the nexus of are two numbers holds up) than any other language. Those that love the English language (and as an avid Shakespeare reader it is perhaps a different English then we hear today I appreciate most) may cringe when I say this but English is often the lowest common denominator. It is very common for one person who speaks Chinese today with a second in English, and another Italian with a second in English, to both communicate in English. Working in a global company as I do with many native Italian speakers I see this on a fairly common basis.
>
> Vale!
>
> G. Claudius Axenrothus
>

> This day was placed by the P. M. C. Julius Caesar at the place were was the month "mens intercalarius"

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert" <robert.woolwine@...>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 3:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] What does Nova Roma Mean to You? Re: De Foro
Romano.


Nope I did not say that I want details about audens. I said there was no
reason to go into it, basically the same rationale you gave in regards to
audens.

Thanks for the information.

Vale,
Sulla

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 23, 2012, at 4:11 PM, "L. Livia Plauta" <livia.plauta@...>
wrote:

>
> Oh, if you want detail about Audens, the recent news is that he resigned
> his
> post as senator in RPR in order to stay in NR.
>
>> Ave!
>>
>> I see no sense in going into detail much like you chose not to go into
>> greater detail about Audens. ;)
>>
>> Vale,
>>
>> Sulla
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 4:40 PM, L. Livia Plauta
>> <livia.plauta@...>wrote:
>>
>>> **
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So what did you hear, Sulla? Will I be able to publicize RPR as the
>>> place
>>> where your dollar is double worth, because it will get infinitely
>>> multiplied
>>> in hearsay?
>>>
>>>
>>>> Ave!
>>>>
>>>> Not what I heard. ;)
>>>>
>>>> Vale,
>>>>
>>>> Sulla
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 4:08 PM, L. Livia Plauta
>>>> <livia.plauta@...>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Wow, I love this! It's so great to be mentioned as a "funding source"
>>>>> after
>>>>> a $ 20 donation. It makes me feel so important! Thanks!
>>>>>
>>>>>> Ave!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mento, just ignore livia too. lol She has a vested reason to do her
>>>>>> best
>>>>>> to criticize NR, she is one of the funding sources of the RPR, or so
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> been told. Just like her outing of Audens, there is always a motive
>>>>>> behind
>>>>>> her messages.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Vale,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sulla
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 9:30 AM, D. Cornelius Mento <
>>>>>> decimuscorneliusmento@...> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> **
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Oh my!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Livia, what was that for?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Who's being presumptuous? I was asking not to be attacked for a
>>>>>>> light-hearted posting I was asked to start by the higher ups. It
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>> presumptuous of Tullia to grade my posting like a term paper and
>>> when
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> asked her not to do such obnoxious things she got high handed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, if I invite you to a party, I'm allowed to publicly criticize
>>> your
>>>>>>> dress, Livia?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So what you're saying is stumbling beginner Latin speakers are not
>>>>>>> welcome here?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Good going, Livia.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> D. Mento
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2/22/2012 6:27 AM, L. Livia Plauta wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Salve Mento,
>>>>>>>> presumptuous people who defend their right to be ignorant are one
>>> of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> types of people who caused the decline of Nova Roma.
>>>>>>>> In fact, I think you fit in here much better than Tullia
>>> Scholastica
>>>>>>> does.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Vale,
>>>>>>>> Livia
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "petronius_dexter" <jfarnoud94@...> wrote:
>
> C. Petronius C. Catoni omnibusque in foro salutem,
>
> > Hodiernus dies est ante diem VI Kalendas Martias; hic dies nefastus est.
>
> Tomorrow will be a. d. VI Kalendas Martias and Regifugium. Today, because this year is leap, is a. d. Bis VI Kalendas Martias.
>
> This day was placed by the P. M. C. Julius Caesar at the place were was the month "mens intercalarius" in the previous Republican calendar, between the Terminalia and the Regifugium.
>
> Optime valete.
>
> C. Petronius Dexter
> Arcoiali scribebat
> a. d. Bis VI Kalendas Martias Cn. Caesare C. Tullio coss.
>

On Feb 24, 2012, at 3:30 PM, "L. Livia Plauta" <livia.plauta@...> wrote:

> Well, but I can give the details, cant' I? The matter is that I gave $ 20 to
> Res Publica Romana (if it wasn't 15, I don't remember well) through their
> Paypal button. I think that's hardly enought to qualify me as a main
> financer. The highest contribution was from consul Lucullus, if I remember
> well: about 150 euros for website expenses.
>
> However it turned out that mine ws the highest contribution given by a
> non-senator, so a donation campaign has been named after me.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert" <robert.woolwine@...>
> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 3:45 AM
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] What does Nova Roma Mean to You? Re: De Foro
> Romano.
>
> Nope I did not say that I want details about audens. I said there was no
> reason to go into it, basically the same rationale you gave in regards to
> audens.
>
> Thanks for the information.
>
> Vale,
> Sulla
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Feb 23, 2012, at 4:11 PM, "L. Livia Plauta" <livia.plauta@...>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > Oh, if you want detail about Audens, the recent news is that he resigned
> > his
> > post as senator in RPR in order to stay in NR.
> >
> >> Ave!
> >>
> >> I see no sense in going into detail much like you chose not to go into
> >> greater detail about Audens. ;)
> >>
> >> Vale,
> >>
> >> Sulla
> >>
> >> On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 4:40 PM, L. Livia Plauta
> >> <livia.plauta@...>wrote:
> >>
> >>> **
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> So what did you hear, Sulla? Will I be able to publicize RPR as the
> >>> place
> >>> where your dollar is double worth, because it will get infinitely
> >>> multiplied
> >>> in hearsay?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Ave!
> >>>>
> >>>> Not what I heard. ;)
> >>>>
> >>>> Vale,
> >>>>
> >>>> Sulla
> >>>>
> >>>> On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 4:08 PM, L. Livia Plauta
> >>>> <livia.plauta@...>wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Wow, I love this! It's so great to be mentioned as a "funding source"
> >>>>> after
> >>>>> a $ 20 donation. It makes me feel so important! Thanks!
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Ave!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Mento, just ignore livia too. lol She has a vested reason to do her
> >>>>>> best
> >>>>>> to criticize NR, she is one of the funding sources of the RPR, or so
> >>>>>> I
> >>>>>> have
> >>>>>> been told. Just like her outing of Audens, there is always a motive
> >>>>>> behind
> >>>>>> her messages.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Vale,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Sulla
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 9:30 AM, D. Cornelius Mento <
> >>>>>> decimuscorneliusmento@...> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> **
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Oh my!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Livia, what was that for?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Who's being presumptuous? I was asking not to be attacked for a
> >>>>>>> light-hearted posting I was asked to start by the higher ups. It
> >>>>>>> was
> >>>>>>> presumptuous of Tullia to grade my posting like a term paper and
> >>> when
> >>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>> asked her not to do such obnoxious things she got high handed.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> So, if I invite you to a party, I'm allowed to publicly criticize
> >>> your
> >>>>>>> dress, Livia?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> So what you're saying is stumbling beginner Latin speakers are not
> >>>>>>> welcome here?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Good going, Livia.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> D. Mento
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 2/22/2012 6:27 AM, L. Livia Plauta wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Salve Mento,
> >>>>>>>> presumptuous people who defend their right to be ignorant are one
> >>> of
> >>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>> types of people who caused the decline of Nova Roma.
> >>>>>>>> In fact, I think you fit in here much better than Tullia
> >>> Scholastica
> >>>>>>> does.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Vale,
> >>>>>>>> Livia
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ------------------------------------
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ------------------------------------
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica C. Claudio Axenrotho quiritibus bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
>
>
> Salve
>
> "Interesting posting, showing enthusiasm and reflexion. Consider my answers as
> a contribution, or food for thoughts if you wish."
>
> Excellent answer. What I wanted to do was start the conversation not direct it
> and I don't mind someone picking what I write apart or looking at a different
> way.
>
> Spanish is definitely a language on the way up, as demographics in Central and
> South America alone show, and a language I, for one, think should be taught as
> a mandatory second in US American schools. +
>
> ATS: That would be putting the cart before the horse. One should learn
> about the mother before the daughter. Spanish is a rather conservative, if
> younger, daughter, whereas French is a less conservative older one. Research
> has shown that the benefits of learning the mother of both confers more
> advantages to reasoning and other skills than the study of ANY other language.
> Now, the mother of French, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, Rumanian (which bears
> an uncanny resemblance to her), etc., is...LATIN. Secondly, while Spanish is
> almost certainly very helpful in business, academia tends to require French
> and German so that academic literature can be read. Even children should have
> a choice in such matters. It is much easier to learn Spanish AFTER Latin than
> before it...but those headed for academia generally need French before
> Spanish.
>
> But it would take someone with more knowledge than I have about the internals
> of NR membership to assess the potential of NR penetration into Central or
> South America versus Europe and North America.
>
> ATS: I just checked (not sure how up to date these are), but I find about
> 20 citizens in Spain, about the same in Brazil, and at least eight or ten in
> Argentina. We did have several in Mexico as well, and a sprinkling of others
> who are not in recognized provinces. We also have some in Portugal...and
> Japan (there is a Latin conversation group in...are you ready...Tokyo). There
> is a smattering of citizens in the Middle East, too.
>
> I doubt that there are many citizens in either France or Germany; we used
> to have some in Italy, but several have moved on, or so I hear. Eastern
> Europe, on the other hand, seems to be doing well.
>
> A comprehensive plan would need to be based more on the one factor I cited but
> demographics, language, geographic areas, and a host of other factors. I could
> as easily picked geographics and history and suggested a focus on Europe and
> then North America although it would beg the question of what is the one
> closest thing to a universal European language (if you only spoke one language
> what language would you be most likely to easily find someone else who speaks
> it in every country you visited in Europe?)
>
> ATS: Latin...and English.
>
> And although I completely agree with your comments about the original language
> we learn I would hazard a guess that far more people speak English as a second
> language (around 1.4 to 1.5 billion of the nexus of are two numbers holds up)
> than any other language. Those that love the English language (and as an avid
> Shakespeare reader it is perhaps a different English then we hear today I
> appreciate most) may cringe when I say this but English is often the lowest
> common denominator. It is very common for one person who speaks Chinese today
> with a second in English, and another Italian with a second in English, to
> both communicate in English. Working in a global company as I do with many
> native Italian speakers I see this on a fairly common basis.
>
> ATS: Yes, English is a very common second language. However, I have had
> to communicate with some of my students solely in Latin because they did not
> know English, and yours truly does not write in Spanish, or read very much of
> it. Absorption is proceeding, however.
>
> Vale!
>
> G. Claudius Axenrothus
>
> Vale, et valete!
>
>
>
>
>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

>
> A. Tullia Scholastica A. Liburnio Hadriano C. Claudio Axenrotho quiritibus
> bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
>
>
>
> A. Liburnius  G. Claudio Axenrotho omnibusque in foro salutem
>  
> Interesting posting, showing enthusiasm and reflexion.  Consider my answers as
> a contribution, or food for thoughts if you wish.
>  
> It all depends on how and what you count. A more accurate reflexion of the
> importance of a language is the actual count of which language is used from
> birth or the native language.
>  
> Second languages contribute only marginally to the cultural, moral and
> intellectual Weltanschau of a person and do not necessarily contribute
> to his/her preferences and his/her choices.
>
> ATS: I think this may depend on the individual. Learning languages
> broadens one¹s perspective immensely, and often removes one from that
> comfortable cultural milieu inculcated with the native language. That, of
> course, is something some find undesirable, much like the concept that the
> earth is round and the moon is not made of green cheese and there is evidence
> that not everything came into being at the same instant and remained
> unchanged.
>  
> As an example, II may be counted as an "English speaker", after 40 plus years
> of total immersion in English, but I still think in Italian and I feel
> Italian. My view of the world differs from that of an English native speaker
> and my standards and values are often different.
>  
> This makes neither me, nor the same previously mentioned "native English
> speaker", better or worse: just different and, often, receptive to different
> ideas and susceptible to different suggestions. I know that by personal
> experience. As examples, I do not share the American lawn fetish  with my
> neighbors.
>
> ATS: LOL! Watch out; the lawn guardians may come and get you...
>  
> It is important to remember this factor in designing a marketing plan to
> attract customers: knowing better the customer is what gives you an edge in
> the market place.
>  
> Now when we come to brass tacks, the actual number of native speakers, the
> statistics are slightly different:
>  
> Mandarin 845 millions
> Spanish 329 millions
> English 328 millions
> Hindi/Hurdu 240 millions
>
> ATS: Hindi and Urdu are different languages written in different scripts:
> Urdu in Arabic script, Hindi in Devanagari. Urdu has more Arabic influence in
> vocabulary, too.
>
> Arabic 206 millions
> Bengali 191 millions
> Portuguese 178 millions
> Russian 144 millions
> Japanese 122 millions
> Punjabi 109 millions
>  
> If one looks at the current estimates, as not all nations take a census at the
> same time, one would notice that Spanish is supposedly now at 400 millions and
> English at 375 millions. Implementing your plan should concentrate on Spanish
> first, English second and Portuguese third. At least, that is what Madison
> Avenue teaches us to do.
>  
> As related data, at the last linguistic census (2007), NR was 60% "other" and
> 40% English. The attrition NR is experiencing is mostly in the "other"
> category as the data of the last census reflects a swap of positions with 60%
> English and 40% "other". The part one cultivates grows, the part one
> neglects whithers away. 
>
> ATS: Yes, and that is something which is highly desired by the
> English-only faction currently in power. Apart from second language fluency
> in one of the vernaculars, what is not noted there, however, is that Nova Roma
> has a fair number of citizens who SPEAK Latin. We are not allowed to do so in
> public, however; we are supposed to be locked up in a ghetto and speak / write
> Latin only on the rez. I think three of the five who survived the first run
> of Avitus¹ course in living Latin are still here, and so are several of the
> others who completed what is now known as Sermo Latinus. All of us have some
> skill in oral communication in Latin as well as that in writing and reading
> Latin. We probably have more Latinists and classicists per capita in NR than
> any place outside a classics convention or conventiculum. We just aren¹t
> allowed to speak out because certain parties either feel compelled to read
> every message on the lists or because some suffer from a paranoid fear that
> messages in languages other than English contain plots against NR. Thus we
> cannot practice our Latin with other citizens or find new ones who have
> similar interests and abilities. Those of us who teach in particular are well
> aware that ponies are crutches, and instead of enhancing learning, prevent it,
> so we will not concede to the nosiness and / or paranoia which governs the
> anti-intellectual faction and supply translations. Never mind, too, that some
> who are fluent in Latin cannot translate it into English, since English is not
> their native tongue. Latinists and native speakers of other tongues who are
> not fluent in English have been silenced here by the xenophobes.
>  
> These data is to be found at:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_number_of_native_speakers#Mo
> re_than_100_million_native_speakers
>
> Vale atque valete optime
> ALH
>
> Valete!
>
>
>
> From: Yehya <yehya_61@... <mailto:yehya_61%40yahoo.com> >
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 6:24 AM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Numbers, strategy, and goals
>
>  
> Salve!
>
> Lately I have been reading all the messages and some of the back messages and
> thought to try to put together some of the different thoughts expressed using
> disparate data elements to develop into a coherent strategy and exercise in
> goal setting. Nothing I am proposing or discussing is in any way to be
> construed as changing what Nova Roma is but just focus on expansion.
>
> I understand I am a new citizen and am not trying to over step my position so
> consider this merely an exercise if you will.
>
> To start with there has been some discussion around English versus other
> languages and the focus on English speakers or the exclusion of other
> languages. Looking at data on world languages from wiki (1) the top six
> languages in the world are:
>
> English 1,800,000,000
> Mandarin 1,345,000,000
> Hindustani 650,000,000
> Spanish 500,000,000
> French 500,000,000
> Arabic 450,000,000
>
> Assuming for cultural, historical, and social reasons we are less likely to
> recruit new members from those that speak primarily Mandarin Chinese,
> Hindustani, or Arabic then we would consider English, French, and Spanish the
> three main languages to target. As English clearly predominates being almost
> twice the two others combined the current focus on English as the "universal"
> language makes sense. This is not to state English should be the official
> language of Nova Roma, or that Latin, Spanish, or French should be ignored,
> but that the largest potential to reach the most receptive audience would be
> in English (I would also include Italian even though it is far down the list
> due to the logical reason that it is the current language spoken in Rome)
>
> Using the current membership statistics from the Nova Roma web site (2) gives
> us a total of active of 1,465 (citizens and probationary citizens) which works
> out to 1 citizen for every 1,228,669 English speakers and 1 citizen for every
> 1,911,263 English, French, and Spanish speakers in the world. Clearly our
> potential penetration (citizens to potential citizens) is below where it could
> be. (To add some perspective the initial episode of the HBO series Rome drew
> 3,800,000 viewers or 1 out of every 473 English speakers in the world)
>
> Suppose we set a goal of 10,000 citizens within 3 years (the end of 2015).
> This brings the numbers down to 1 out of 180,000 for English and 1 out of
> 280,000 for combined. Clearly the potential for expansion exists as these
> numbers are still very conservative compared to the potential.
>
> Now let's look at the tax and revenue situation as discussed recently as well.
> Assuming the annual taxes are set at a flat $24 US per citizen and we received
> full payment we would generate about $35,000 US. As actual receipts are
> considerable less we are averaging closer to $3 US per citizen but if instead
> we set the annual tax at a flat $5 US and made it a requirement we would
> generate (from the projected 10,000 citizens) $50,000 US or about ten times
> the current annual revenue. Even reducing the flat rate tax to $1 US annually
> and making it a requirement would double the current revenue if we can
> increase the citizenship rolls.
>
> So what I would suggest is a setting a goal of 10,000 citizens by the end of
> 2015 and developing a plan to achieve that goal. I have some ideas in mind to
> support that goal but before presenting them am interested to see if there is
> any interest in such a proposal
>
> Vale!
>
> G. Claudius Axenrothus
>
> 1 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_language
> 2
> http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Citizen_%28Nova_Roma%29#Number_of_citizens_as_of_17
> :04.2C_9_June_2011_.28CEST.29
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

> English-only faction currently in power. Apart from second language fluency
> in one of the vernaculars, what is not noted there, however, is that Nova Roma
> has a fair number of citizens who SPEAK Latin. We are not allowed to do so in
> public, however; we are supposed to be locked up in a ghetto and speak / write
> Latin only on the rez. I think three of the five who survived the first run
> of Avitus¹ course in living Latin are still here, and so are several of the
> others who completed what is now known as Sermo Latinus. All of us have some
> skill in oral communication in Latin as well as that in writing and reading
> Latin. We probably have more Latinists and classicists per capita in NR than
> any place outside a classics convention or conventiculum. We just aren¹t
> allowed to speak out because certain parties either feel compelled to read
> every message on the lists or because some suffer from a paranoid fear that
> messages in languages other than English contain plots against NR. Thus we
> cannot practice our Latin with other citizens or find new ones who have
> similar interests and abilities. Those of us who teach in particular are well
> aware that ponies are crutches, and instead of enhancing learning, prevent it,
> so we will not concede to the nosiness and / or paranoia which governs the
> anti-intellectual faction and supply translations. Never mind, too, that some
> who are fluent in Latin cannot translate it into English, since English is not
> their native tongue. Latinists and native speakers of other tongues who are
> not fluent in English have been silenced here by the xenophobes..

On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 5:16 AM, Yehya <yehya_61@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Salve!
>
>
> ATS: Yes, and that is something which is highly desired by the
> > English-only faction currently in power. Apart from second language
> fluency
> > in one of the vernaculars, what is not noted there, however, is that
> Nova Roma
> > has a fair number of citizens who SPEAK Latin. We are not allowed to do
> so in
> > public, however; we are supposed to be locked up in a ghetto and speak /
> write
> > Latin only on the rez. I think three of the five who survived the first
> run
> > of Avitus� course in living Latin are still here, and so are several of
> the
> > others who completed what is now known as Sermo Latinus. All of us have
> some
> > skill in oral communication in Latin as well as that in writing and
> reading
> > Latin. We probably have more Latinists and classicists per capita in NR
> than
> > any place outside a classics convention or conventiculum. We just aren�t
> > allowed to speak out because certain parties either feel compelled to
> read
> > every message on the lists or because some suffer from a paranoid fear
> that
> > messages in languages other than English contain plots against NR. Thus
> we
> > cannot practice our Latin with other citizens or find new ones who have
> > similar interests and abilities. Those of us who teach in particular are
> well
> > aware that ponies are crutches, and instead of enhancing learning,
> prevent it,
> > so we will not concede to the nosiness and / or paranoia which governs
> the
> > anti-intellectual faction and supply translations. Never mind, too, that
> some
> > who are fluent in Latin cannot translate it into English, since English
> is not
> > their native tongue. Latinists and native speakers of other tongues who
> are
> > not fluent in English have been silenced here by the xenophobes..
>
> Wow what a diatribe. I was unaware of anyone trying to prohibit Latin here
> in NR or did I sense any feelings of xenophobia among the posters. Who,
> exactly, is not "allowing" you to speak out? Why do you pay them any
> attention?
>
> (As an aside if we went to the message board type I suggested you could
> have a section completely in Latin for conversing, learning, and sharing)
>
> And why do you confuse anti-intellectual with anti-academic? I have found,
> from experience, that academics can be as narrow minded and bigoted as non
> academics, in fact in many ways more so as they tend to view anyone outside
> academia as somehow beneath them intellectually.
>
> I tend to view Latin as an important language and support it's
> preservation and teaching. I respect those that study another language, any
> language, but for the 95% of us in the real world subsidizing all these
> academics we need to focus on practical matters. And the simple fact is
> Spanish as a second language, or English, is more valuable than Latin in
> North America. So when we get to public schools, subsidized by my not
> inconsiderable yearly tax "offering" I tend to favor teaching the
> practical. Private non subsidized schools are a different matter.
>
> Vale!
>
> G. Claudius Axenrothus
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica C. Claudio Axenrotho quiritibus bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
>
>
>
> Salve!
>
> "ATS: That would be putting the cart before the horse. One should learn about
> the mother before the daughter. Spanish is a rather conservative, if younger,
> daughter, whereas French is a less conservative older one. Research has shown
> that the benefits of learning the mother of both confers more advantages to
> reasoning and other skills than the study of ANY other language. Now, the
> mother of French, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, Rumanian (which bears an
> uncanny resemblance to her), etc., is...LATIN. Secondly, while Spanish is
> almost certainly very helpful in business, academia tends to require French
> and German so that academic literature can be read. Even children should have
> a choice in such matters. It is much easier to learn Spanish AFTER Latin than
> before it...but those headed for academia generally need French before
> Spanish."
>
> From an academic standpoint perhaps but from a practical one? Spanish is the
> second most spoken language in the US with over 28 million speaking it as a
> primary language and many millions more as a second. French is fourth with 1.8
> million and Latin doesn't even make the list. Spanish is also rapidly growing
> in the US due to demographic changes.
>
> ATS2: Is learning something which forces the application of analytical
> skills impractical? Secondly, is it necessary for everyone to speak Spanish?
> Perhaps those who do business with Spanish-speaking countries should learn
> Spanish (probably a good business decision), but outside of places like NYC or
> the US Southwest, one might not ever encounter a Spanish speaker. I shall
> refrain from mentioning that the US is not the only country on this planet,
> that things are likely to be different in other countries, and that Nova Roma
> is an international organization, not an American one...however much some
> might prefer that it restrict membership to Americans, or at best English
> speakers.
>
> All of which goes to show that academics may make good teachers but often poor
> strategic planners. Walk into any major public area in the US and you are
> guaranteed to find someone that speaks English, almost guaranteed to find
> someone that speaks Spanish, may find someone that speaks French, and would be
> hard pressed to find someone that speaks Latin (outside some academic and
> religious circles)
>
> ATS2: I am sorry to disappoint you, but Latin speakers are not
> necessarily academics or religious figures. They come from all walks of life.
> To take but one example, if I am not mistaken, our praetor, Petronius, who is
> a member of the Parisian living Latin conversational group, is neither an
> academic nor a religious figure in his macronational existence, though he IS a
> pontifex of the Religio Romana in NR. We have many people here who practice
> the Religio Romana (usually referred to simply as the Religio, or the RR), and
> at least some of them like to address the Roman deities in a language they
> might understand better than that upstart, English. Even his native French is
> something of an upstart... ;-)
>
> Among Latin speakers we do have both academics and religious figures, but
> we also have business people, attorneys, medical doctors, and many others. I
> might also mention that pragmatism is not the only way to approach anything;
> as Cato pointed out, utility is not an absolute concept, to which I shall add
> that it is not always visible at first glance.
>
> As for Latin can you tell me of any group today that speaks Latin as a primary
> or "native" language?
>
> ATS2: No, but there are those who claim to be native speakers of
> Sanskrit. You might care to obtain a copy of the text we use for the
> Rudimenta Latina course, A Natural History of Latin, which among other things
> explains the difference between native and acquired languages, and
> differentiates the latter in particular in a very useful fashion. Rest
> assured that some classicists might well teach their children Latin as a first
> language...
>
> In the end, it is not quantity, but quality, which matters. Whether or
> not a given language has native speakers or not also does not matter; whether
> or not the language in question can be, and is, used to communicate between
> and among speakers who have no other common language is of far greater
> importance. There are people who study Hittite, Akkadian, Babylonian, ancient
> Egyptian, Sumerian, and many other languages they will never use to
> communicate with anyone else; those tongues are thoroughly dead. Latin is
> not, and has lasted a lot longer than English or its apparent ancestor,
> Althochdeutsch [Old High German]. It may outlive English, too...
>
> Vale!
>
> G. Claudius Axenrothus
>
> Vale, et valete.
>

>
>
> Salve, Claudi, et salvete, quirites bonae voluntatis.
>
>
> Salve!
>
> ATS: Yes, and that is something which is highly desired by the
>> > English-only faction currently in power. Apart from second language fluency
>> > in one of the vernaculars, what is not noted there, however, is that Nova
>> Roma
>> > has a fair number of citizens who SPEAK Latin. We are not allowed to do so
>> in
>> > public, however; we are supposed to be locked up in a ghetto and speak /
>> write
>> > Latin only on the rez. I think three of the five who survived the first run
>> > of Avitus¹ course in living Latin are still here, and so are several of the
>> > others who completed what is now known as Sermo Latinus. All of us have
>> some
>> > skill in oral communication in Latin as well as that in writing and reading
>> > Latin. We probably have more Latinists and classicists per capita in NR
>> than
>> > any place outside a classics convention or conventiculum. We just aren¹t
>> > allowed to speak out because certain parties either feel compelled to read
>> > every message on the lists or because some suffer from a paranoid fear that
>> > messages in languages other than English contain plots against NR. Thus we
>> > cannot practice our Latin with other citizens or find new ones who have
>> > similar interests and abilities. Those of us who teach in particular are
>> well
>> > aware that ponies are crutches, and instead of enhancing learning, prevent
>> it,
>> > so we will not concede to the nosiness and / or paranoia which governs the
>> > anti-intellectual faction and supply translations. Never mind, too, that
>> some
>> > who are fluent in Latin cannot translate it into English, since English is
>> not
>> > their native tongue. Latinists and native speakers of other tongues who are
>> > not fluent in English have been silenced here by the xenophobes..
>
> Wow what a diatribe. I was unaware of anyone trying to prohibit Latin here in
> NR or did I sense any feelings of xenophobia among the posters. Who, exactly,
> is not "allowing" you to speak out? Why do you pay them any attention?
>
> ATS: That is not a diatribe; it is a statement of fact. You have very
> recently emerged from the protective cocoon of the [overly] restrictive Forum
> Hospitum, on which the mere mention of Nova Roman politics is deemed taboo.
> There was even a question as to the mention of such an innocent topic as the
> ludi would be allowed.
>
> You have not seen the complaints whenever anyone uses so much as one word
> of Latin. You have not seen similar complaints when anyone uses any language
> but English, and you have apparently not read the document which governs
> posting on the Main List. It¹s called the moderation edictum, and is
> published nearly every year by the praetors, who decide what is and is not
> allowed within the parameters of the Yahoo Terms of Service. This year the
> praetors have decided that all texts in languages other than English must be
> translated, even though people who are competent in reading English may not be
> able to translate their native tongues into it, for that is a special skill
> and requires much more knowledge than does the passive reading of a text. The
> same holds true for Latin. This edictum makes it an offense to write in any
> language but English unless a translation is appended. As I have repeatedly
> stated, translations interfere with the ability to learn a language by acting
> as a crutch, used instead of trying to make sense out of the text in whatever
> language is involved. A few years ago, we used to have lively discussions in
> Latin, but now that is effectively forbidden. We used to have moderation
> edicta which stated which languages could be used with the expectation that a
> member of the praetorian staff would be able to read them and approve them,
> for new members were always moderated. That has gone by the boards now.
> Since the edictum has the force of law, we have to pay attention to it, even
> though it is misguided and wrong. The intent was to increase the use of
> Latin, but instead it has ended its use on the Main List simply because some
> vocal individuals belonging to the political faction to which the majority of
> the magistrates belong complain when they cannot understand every post on the
> list. My view is that no one has to read every single post, but that seems
> not to have penetrated the consciousness of several among us, and at least one
> of the relevant officials has stated that untranslated posts in languages
> other than English may conceal plots against Nova Roma. Draw your own
> conclusions there.
>
> (As an aside if we went to the message board type I suggested you could have a
> section completely in Latin for conversing, learning, and sharing)
>
> ATS: We have an all-Latin list, and one devoted to Latin which is not
> all-Latin. Both are extremely quiet, and both have large numbers of
> non-citizens among their members. The ML is where we can converse solely with
> citizens (in the past, also with others who were interested in NR; all such
> individuals were purged a couple of years ago, along with some quiet
> citizens); many on these two Latin-oriented lists could care less about NR.
>
> Didn¹t someone say that Yahoo could be configured as a message board for
> those who prefer this format?
>
> And why do you confuse anti-intellectual with anti-academic? I have found,
> from experience, that academics can be as narrow minded and bigoted as non
> academics, in fact in many ways more so as they tend to view anyone outside
> academia as somehow beneath them intellectually.
>
> ATS: I don¹t see much difference between anti-intellectual and
> anti-academic. True, some academics are quite narrowminded...though I have
> not found much of that in my own field. In some other ones where I have had
> to take courses, yes. Those students who do not agree with the professor get
> lower grades...but then that happened to me (and in a related field) merely
> because I have two X chromosomes, and the professor thought we women were
> inferior.
>
> I tend to view Latin as an important language and support it's preservation
> and teaching.
>
> ATS: You could have fooled me.
>
> I respect those that study another language, any language, but for the 95% of
> us in the real world subsidizing all these academics we need to focus on
> practical matters. And the simple fact is Spanish as a second language, or
> English, is more valuable than Latin in North America. So when we get to
> public schools, subsidized by my not inconsiderable yearly tax "offering"
>
> ATS: Some offering that is!
>
> I tend to favor teaching the practical.
>
> ATS: They call that vocational education. Once again, the practical
> application of anything is not readily apparent at first glance, and many
> subjects deemed impractical have many hidden benefits. Secondly, it is
> important to know where we came from, and what makes us human. For that,
> history, other social sciences, and the humanities are essential. Consider,
> too, that about 60% of the English vocabulary comes directly or indirectly
> from Latin...is it impractical to have a good vocabulary in English, or is it
> quite enough to confine oneself to the Anglo-Saxonisms popular with some among
> us? Should such imported words be condemned to the memory hole? A while ago
> I posted some examples of English before the Norman Conquest, with no Latin
> whatsoever, and no Norman French, either. The texts are virtually
> incomprehensible to a modern English speaker. The grammar is Germanic, and
> the words wholly so. Those who learn Latin and French do much better in
> English (is this undesirable?), and they learn to think in a different way.
> That to me is good.
>
> Private non subsidized schools are a different matter.
>
> ATS: Perhaps, but few of them offer what you deem impractical, and those
> with which I am familiar do not have a vocational component at all.
>
>
>
> Vale!
>
> G. Claudius Axenrothus
>
> Vale, et valete,
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica
>
>
>

>
> A. Tullia Scholastica C. Equitio Catoni quondam collegae quiritibus bonae
> voluntatis S.P.D.
>
>
>
> Cato Claudio Axenrotho omnibusque in foro SPD
>
> First, I'm glad to know your name now :)
>
> Second, as I'm sure everyone is aware, there s a major difference between the
> fact that a certain number of people actually speak a language and whether or
> not that language is particularly *useful* in a given set of circumstances.
>
> ATS: Indeed there is.
>
>
> Since the vast majority of our citizens live in the Western Hemisphere, the
> choice of English rather than, say, Mandarin Chinese, as the lingua franca
> (pardon the pun) only makes sense.
>
> ATS: Yes, and that is also the case in NR. However, due to our unusual
> nature and focus, Latin is far more useful here than in many interactions in
> the outside world.
>
> Third, I strongly disagree that there is any kind of vendetta against Latin
> here.
>
> ATS: I guess you didn¹t see the complaints any time that Latin is used,
> or the comments that its use is elitist. Some still believe that Latin is
> useful only for reading ancient texts, but that is not the case, and most
> certainly is not the view taken by a fair number of classicists these days.
> When the use of any non-English language is censured here, it is Latin, not
> Finnish or Kwakiutl or whatever else which is mentioned by name. Did you note
> in the Senate last time what language was singled out for mandatory
> translation?
>
>
> I am pursuing a claim of provocatio against the moderation edict not because
> I think it is "aimed" at Latin per se but because of its general tenor.
>
> ATS: That, too, but given the composition of the provocatio committee,
> the status quo is likely to prevail. One must be able to see that something
> is wrong before one can move to correct it.
>
> I would also like to discourage any claims or thoughts regarding the
> "superiority" of English. It is not our business language because it is
> considered superior to any other language but only because it is the de facto
> common language of the world currently and because the founders of the
> Respublica were English speakers.
>
> I love English more than I can express, but because I know it and enjoy using
> it in all its subtleties and beauty; I also recognize that even given whatever
> level of other language(s) I may speak I will never truly be able to express
> myself in them in the same way as English precisely because every language has
> its glorious and subtle nuances.
>
> ATS: Indeed, every language has such features, and few, if any, of us can
> fully express ourselves in anything but our native tongues. Even the best
> Latinists find it difficult to do that in Latin, and not only because we must
> use the process of novatio to obtain a common vocabulary for things and
> concepts the Romans did not have. Some, like Petronius, want to be very
> conservative and use only pure Latin words, whereas others are much more
> liberal, and prefer to adopt and adapt ancient and other words to fit the
> circumstances.
>
> With that in mind I certainly sympathize with those citizens for whom
> expression in English is a more difficult endeavor, and I am trying to
> consider what can be done to accommodate them. I feel especially sympathetic
> to our citizens who live amongst the actual physical reminders of the culture
> after whom we have chosen to model ourselves and who actually speak the
> languages for which the direct antecedent is Latin itself.
>
> ATS: Yes, and you might want to expand that to those who actually speak
> Latin herself, whether or not their languages are derived directly from Latin.
> We have at least one fine Latinist here whose language is not even distantly
> related to Latin, and others whose native tongues are distant cousins, not
> direct descendants, of Mother Latin.
>
> Valete bene,
>
> Cato
>
> Vale et valete bene.
>
>
>

> wrote:

> **
> > ATS: That is not a diatribe; it is a statement of fact. You have very
> > recently emerged from the protective cocoon of the [overly] restrictive
> Forum
> > Hospitum, on which the mere mention of Nova Roman politics is deemed
> taboo.
> > There was even a question as to the mention of such an innocent topic as
> the
> > ludi would be allowed.
>

> >
> > You have not seen the complaints whenever anyone uses so much as one word
> > of Latin. You have not seen similar complaints when anyone uses any
> language
> > but English, and you have apparently not read the document which governs
> > posting on the Main List. It¹s called the moderation edictum, and is
> > published nearly every year by the praetors, who decide what is and is
> not
> > allowed within the parameters of the Yahoo Terms of Service. This year
> the
> > praetors have decided that all texts in languages other than English
> must be
> > translated, even though people who are competent in reading English may
> not be
> > able to translate their native tongues into it, for that is a special
> skill
> > and requires much more knowledge than does the passive reading of a
> text. The
> > same holds true for Latin. This edictum makes it an offense to write in
> any
> > language but English unless a translation is appended. As I have
> repeatedly
> > stated, translations interfere with the ability to learn a language by
> acting
> > as a crutch, used instead of trying to make sense out of the text in
> whatever
> > language is involved. A few years ago, we used to have lively
> discussions in
> > Latin, but now that is effectively forbidden. We used to have moderation
> > edicta which stated which languages could be used with the expectation
> that a
> > member of the praetorian staff would be able to read them and approve
> them,
> > for new members were always moderated. That has gone by the boards now.
> > Since the edictum has the force of law, we have to pay attention to it,
> even
> > though it is misguided and wrong. The intent was to increase the use of
> > Latin, but instead it has ended its use on the Main List simply because
> some
> > vocal individuals belonging to the political faction to which the
> majority of
> > the magistrates belong complain when they cannot understand every post
> on the
> > list. My view is that no one has to read every single post, but that
> seems
> > not to have penetrated the consciousness of several among us, and at
> least one
> > of the relevant officials has stated that untranslated posts in languages
> > other than English may conceal plots against Nova Roma. Draw your own
> > conclusions there.
>
> SCA: Axenrothus (interesting name btw) yes there is an Edict this year

> >
> > (As an aside if we went to the message board type I suggested you could
> have a
> > section completely in Latin for conversing, learning, and sharing)
> >
> > ATS: We have an all-Latin list, and one devoted to Latin which is not
> > all-Latin. Both are extremely quiet, and both have large numbers of
> > non-citizens among their members. The ML is where we can converse solely
> with
> > citizens (in the past, also with others who were interested in NR; all
> such
> > individuals were purged a couple of years ago, along with some quiet
> > citizens); many on these two Latin-oriented lists could care less about
> NR.
>

> >
> > Didn¹t someone say that Yahoo could be configured as a message board for
> > those who prefer this format?
>

>
> >
>
>
> >
> > I tend to view Latin as an important language and support it's
> preservation
> > and teaching.
> >
> > ATS: You could have fooled me.
>

On 2/25/2012 8:16 PM, A. Tullia Scholastica wrote:
>
> >
> > A. Tullia Scholastica C. Equitio Catoni quondam collegae quiritibus
> bonae
> > voluntatis S.P.D.
> >
> >
> >
> > Cato Claudio Axenrotho omnibusque in foro SPD
> >
> > First, I'm glad to know your name now :)
> >
> > Second, as I'm sure everyone is aware, there s a major difference
> between the
> > fact that a certain number of people actually speak a language and
> whether or
> > not that language is particularly *useful* in a given set of
> circumstances.
> >
> > ATS: Indeed there is.
> >
> >
> > Since the vast majority of our citizens live in the Western
> Hemisphere, the
> > choice of English rather than, say, Mandarin Chinese, as the lingua
> franca
> > (pardon the pun) only makes sense.
> >
> > ATS: Yes, and that is also the case in NR. However, due to our unusual
> > nature and focus, Latin is far more useful here than in many
> interactions in
> > the outside world.
> >
> > Third, I strongly disagree that there is any kind of vendetta
> against Latin
> > here.
> >
> > ATS: I guess you didn¹t see the complaints any time that Latin is used,
> > or the comments that its use is elitist. Some still believe that
> Latin is
> > useful only for reading ancient texts, but that is not the case, and
> most
> > certainly is not the view taken by a fair number of classicists
> these days.
> > When the use of any non-English language is censured here, it is
> Latin, not
> > Finnish or Kwakiutl or whatever else which is mentioned by name. Did
> you note
> > in the Senate last time what language was singled out for mandatory
> > translation?
> >
> >
> > I am pursuing a claim of provocatio against the moderation edict not
> because
> > I think it is "aimed" at Latin per se but because of its general tenor.
> >
> > ATS: That, too, but given the composition of the provocatio committee,
> > the status quo is likely to prevail. One must be able to see that
> something
> > is wrong before one can move to correct it.
> >
> > I would also like to discourage any claims or thoughts regarding the
> > "superiority" of English. It is not our business language because it is
> > considered superior to any other language but only because it is the
> de facto
> > common language of the world currently and because the founders of the
> > Respublica were English speakers.
> >
> > I love English more than I can express, but because I know it and
> enjoy using
> > it in all its subtleties and beauty; I also recognize that even
> given whatever
> > level of other language(s) I may speak I will never truly be able to
> express
> > myself in them in the same way as English precisely because every
> language has
> > its glorious and subtle nuances.
> >
> > ATS: Indeed, every language has such features, and few, if any, of
> us can
> > fully express ourselves in anything but our native tongues. Even the
> best
> > Latinists find it difficult to do that in Latin, and not only
> because we must
> > use the process of novatio to obtain a common vocabulary for things and
> > concepts the Romans did not have. Some, like Petronius, want to be very
> > conservative and use only pure Latin words, whereas others are much more
> > liberal, and prefer to adopt and adapt ancient and other words to
> fit the
> > circumstances.
> >
> > With that in mind I certainly sympathize with those citizens for whom
> > expression in English is a more difficult endeavor, and I am trying to
> > consider what can be done to accommodate them. I feel especially
> sympathetic
> > to our citizens who live amongst the actual physical reminders of
> the culture
> > after whom we have chosen to model ourselves and who actually speak the
> > languages for which the direct antecedent is Latin itself.
> >
> > ATS: Yes, and you might want to expand that to those who actually speak
> > Latin herself, whether or not their languages are derived directly
> from Latin.
> > We have at least one fine Latinist here whose language is not even
> distantly
> > related to Latin, and others whose native tongues are distant
> cousins, not
> > direct descendants, of Mother Latin.
> >
> > Valete bene,
> >
> > Cato
> >
> > Vale et valete bene.
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
>
> Salve, Claudi, et salvete, quirites bonae voluntatis.
>
>
> Salve!
>
> ATS: Yes, and that is something which is highly desired by the
>> > English-only faction currently in power. Apart from second language fluency
>> > in one of the vernaculars, what is not noted there, however, is that Nova
>> Roma
>> > has a fair number of citizens who SPEAK Latin. We are not allowed to do so
>> in
>> > public, however; we are supposed to be locked up in a ghetto and speak /
>> write
>> > Latin only on the rez. I think three of the five who survived the first run
>> > of Avitus¹ course in living Latin are still here, and so are several of the
>> > others who completed what is now known as Sermo Latinus. All of us have
>> some
>> > skill in oral communication in Latin as well as that in writing and reading
>> > Latin. We probably have more Latinists and classicists per capita in NR
>> than
>> > any place outside a classics convention or conventiculum. We just aren¹t
>> > allowed to speak out because certain parties either feel compelled to read
>> > every message on the lists or because some suffer from a paranoid fear that
>> > messages in languages other than English contain plots against NR. Thus we
>> > cannot practice our Latin with other citizens or find new ones who have
>> > similar interests and abilities. Those of us who teach in particular are
>> well
>> > aware that ponies are crutches, and instead of enhancing learning, prevent
>> it,
>> > so we will not concede to the nosiness and / or paranoia which governs the
>> > anti-intellectual faction and supply translations. Never mind, too, that
>> some
>> > who are fluent in Latin cannot translate it into English, since English is
>> not
>> > their native tongue. Latinists and native speakers of other tongues who are
>> > not fluent in English have been silenced here by the xenophobes..
>
> Wow what a diatribe. I was unaware of anyone trying to prohibit Latin here in
> NR or did I sense any feelings of xenophobia among the posters. Who, exactly,
> is not "allowing" you to speak out? Why do you pay them any attention?
>
> ATS: That is not a diatribe; it is a statement of fact. You have very
> recently emerged from the protective cocoon of the [overly] restrictive Forum
> Hospitum, on which the mere mention of Nova Roman politics is deemed taboo.
> There was even a question as to the mention of such an innocent topic as the
> ludi would be allowed.
>
> You have not seen the complaints whenever anyone uses so much as one word
> of Latin. You have not seen similar complaints when anyone uses any language
> but English, and you have apparently not read the document which governs
> posting on the Main List. It¹s called the moderation edictum, and is
> published nearly every year by the praetors, who decide what is and is not
> allowed within the parameters of the Yahoo Terms of Service. This year the
> praetors have decided that all texts in languages other than English must be
> translated, even though people who are competent in reading English may not be
> able to translate their native tongues into it, for that is a special skill
> and requires much more knowledge than does the passive reading of a text. The
> same holds true for Latin. This edictum makes it an offense to write in any
> language but English unless a translation is appended. As I have repeatedly
> stated, translations interfere with the ability to learn a language by acting
> as a crutch, used instead of trying to make sense out of the text in whatever
> language is involved. A few years ago, we used to have lively discussions in
> Latin, but now that is effectively forbidden. We used to have moderation
> edicta which stated which languages could be used with the expectation that a
> member of the praetorian staff would be able to read them and approve them,
> for new members were always moderated. That has gone by the boards now.
> Since the edictum has the force of law, we have to pay attention to it, even
> though it is misguided and wrong. The intent was to increase the use of
> Latin, but instead it has ended its use on the Main List simply because some
> vocal individuals belonging to the political faction to which the majority of
> the magistrates belong complain when they cannot understand every post on the
> list. My view is that no one has to read every single post, but that seems
> not to have penetrated the consciousness of several among us, and at least one
> of the relevant officials has stated that untranslated posts in languages
> other than English may conceal plots against Nova Roma. Draw your own
> conclusions there.
>
> (As an aside if we went to the message board type I suggested you could have a
> section completely in Latin for conversing, learning, and sharing)
>
> ATS: We have an all-Latin list, and one devoted to Latin which is not
> all-Latin. Both are extremely quiet, and both have large numbers of
> non-citizens among their members. The ML is where we can converse solely with
> citizens (in the past, also with others who were interested in NR; all such
> individuals were purged a couple of years ago, along with some quiet
> citizens); many on these two Latin-oriented lists could care less about NR.
>
> Didn¹t someone say that Yahoo could be configured as a message board for
> those who prefer this format?
>
> And why do you confuse anti-intellectual with anti-academic? I have found,
> from experience, that academics can be as narrow minded and bigoted as non
> academics, in fact in many ways more so as they tend to view anyone outside
> academia as somehow beneath them intellectually.
>
> ATS: I don¹t see much difference between anti-intellectual and
> anti-academic. True, some academics are quite narrowminded...though I have
> not found much of that in my own field. In some other ones where I have had
> to take courses, yes. Those students who do not agree with the professor get
> lower grades...but then that happened to me (and in a related field) merely
> because I have two X chromosomes, and the professor thought we women were
> inferior.
>
> I tend to view Latin as an important language and support it's preservation
> and teaching.
>
> ATS: You could have fooled me.
>
> I respect those that study another language, any language, but for the 95% of
> us in the real world subsidizing all these academics we need to focus on
> practical matters. And the simple fact is Spanish as a second language, or
> English, is more valuable than Latin in North America. So when we get to
> public schools, subsidized by my not inconsiderable yearly tax "offering"
>
> ATS: Some offering that is!
>
> I tend to favor teaching the practical.
>
> ATS: They call that vocational education. Once again, the practical
> application of anything is not readily apparent at first glance, and many
> subjects deemed impractical have many hidden benefits. Secondly, it is
> important to know where we came from, and what makes us human. For that,
> history, other social sciences, and the humanities are essential. Consider,
> too, that about 60% of the English vocabulary comes directly or indirectly
> from Latin...is it impractical to have a good vocabulary in English, or is it
> quite enough to confine oneself to the Anglo-Saxonisms popular with some among
> us? Should such imported words be condemned to the memory hole? A while ago
> I posted some examples of English before the Norman Conquest, with no Latin
> whatsoever, and no Norman French, either. The texts are virtually
> incomprehensible to a modern English speaker. The grammar is Germanic, and
> the words wholly so. Those who learn Latin and French do much better in
> English (is this undesirable?), and they learn to think in a different way.
> That to me is good.
>
> Private non subsidized schools are a different matter.
>
> ATS: Perhaps, but few of them offer what you deem impractical, and those
> with which I am familiar do not have a vocational component at all.
>
>
>
> Vale!
>
> G. Claudius Axenrothus
>
> Vale, et valete,
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica
>
>
>