Lentulus Mariae salutem:
Caeca Lentulo Omnibusque in foro Sal!
Amice Carissime, you know, I have to smile a little, because, in some ways,
this is a continuation of many private discussions we have already had. But
let me assure you that my intention is not to convince you of anything. I
understand and respect your views, whether I entirely agree with or not.
No, my intent here is not to convince, but rather to present my own views to
you directly, and indirectly to the list, because I do not consider this
discussion either trivial or irrelevant. I firmly believe that anything
that furthers understanding and communication among us is of extreme value,
because it also increases our sense of community, and the greater that sense
is, and the more effort we expend in developing it, the more Nova Roma will
benefit.
As much as I hate to read interleaved posts, I am going to interleave this
one, mostly because you raise complicated issues, and I donÂ’t want to miss
anything. IÂ’m also going to use a new goodie I found in my Microsoft word,
which *should* make what I say appear in blue type; but if it doesnÂ’t, IÂ’ll
try to put my initials in front of what I have to say.
Carissima amica, I accept this is your view in this matter, but I don't
agree with your argument. I think I shall quit from this debate at this
point because I see no chance (as I wrote previously) that I can convince
the powers to change the edict.
Just to give a short answer as to why I disagree I say this:
Our forum, just like any forum in the world, was never intended to be a
place where everyone talks to everyone at any moment of time.
CMC: OK, here is my first divergence. Mailing lists are, by their very
nature, public. When someone makes a post, even as I am doing now to you, I
am also posting to everyone on the list. Yes, my posts (or anyone elseÂ’s)
can be easily deleted, and IÂ’m sure some are, but that isnÂ’t the point. For
one thing, I find conversations between citizens often interesting and
challenging, and, as a list member, the option to freely participate in
those conversations is of value to me. Even when IÂ’m having a bit of fun
with a friend, as I do from time to time, I am always aware that what I am
writing could well be read by many people, and that, also, has its value,
because it gives people who may never have direct contact with me a sense of
who I am, and in most cases, my words are all they will or can have of me.
Posts are "public", but not all posts are addressed to everyone. For
example, I am now writing this post to you, and I don't have the intention
that others read this post. I write it in public, but only to you. If others
read it, fine. But I talk to you.
CMC. This is certainly true, but again, anything you say to me, or I say to
you must be considered public property, so to speak, because, among other
things, we have no control over who will or will not read what we say. If I
wish to speak to you of anything that I consider private, as I certainly
have over several years, and certainly hope to in future, then my
expectations and even my writing style will be different, and I will know,
*exactly* who is reading what I write.
It is like when ancient Romans talked in the forum, but not everyone spoke
to every other person. There was a rostra from where orators spoke to the
mass. And there were the shadows of the columns of a basilica or a temple
where people talked in two, or in small groups.
CMC. Oh, dear, youÂ’ve heard *this* from me before, but IÂ’m afraid Â…we canÂ’t
clone ancient Rome. We have to use the tools we have at our disposal, to
the best of our abilities and their capabilities, and we have to understand
how what we use works, both technologically and in terms of social dynamics
to use them best. This isnÂ’t the Roman forum Â…and we canÂ’t stroll around
having small group or private conversations, not on this list, anyway. BTW,
if this *was* the ancient forum, I wouldnÂ’t even be allowed into it, or so I
understand J.
If it were rude to use another language than what the majority understands,
then it would equally be rude to talk about anything that does not
necessarily interest others in the community.
CMC. Again, I think we have a different understanding of what is of
interest. To be honest, I have a more difficult time thinking of those
things that effect my fellow citizens and friends which is not of interest
to me! We do talk about things that are not specifically oriented to
ancient Rome, but we are not ancient Romans. We are Novi Romani, and we
take as much interest in what happens in our world as our ancestors of
choice took in theirs, so yes, sometimes we address current events, modern
but significant holidays and even small details of our personal lives.
This, Care Amice is important in building a tightly knit, closely bonded
community, and without that we have no heart.
Yet it is tolerated, not only tolerated, but encouraged, to post here on
absolutely every topic, even if a lot of
people just delete most of the posts because they would be more interested
in updates of events, programs, new books, films, exhibitions on Roman
topics, new discoveries etc, or deep discussions on ancient Roman clothes,
houses, armor etc. I'm quite convinced that these topics are what most of
our list subscribers would like to receive.
CMC. Now, wait a minute, dear friend. We have tried, on this list and in
the Forum Hospitum to encourage such posts and start such conversations, and
no one participates. I think we would all welcome such discussions, but for
that to happen, people need to *post* on such topics, and once a discussion
is begun, people need to *respond* by either contributing something, or
asking questions. In this regard, the list is self administering in that
people talk about what they *want* to talk about. Every attempt to introduce
specific discussions, even on Roman oriented subjects has failed, and failed
spectacularly because of lack of response and apparent apathy. Anyone can
present such things, that they do not is their personal choice, and such
things simply cannot be forced. Sorry, but this is a frustration for me,
because IÂ’ve always felt that things like Roman philosophy, literature,
history, daily life, and other things belong on the main list, and should
not be shunted off to other sub lists. I well remember complaining about
this tendency to Marinus when he was Praetor, and I would be absolutely
delighted to see the kinds of posts you mention on the main forum, or, for
that matter, anywhere in NR.
Yet we don't really care about what they want to hear, we talk about what
we want to talk. And this is not rude from us at all, because this list is
not created to be only a rostra, where orators address the masses, but also
as a place for discussions between two or more individual people, without
limit, unless they violate the public code of conduct. This edict, however,
makes the usage of a non-English language, a violation of code of conduct.
CMC. No, it does not. People an post in any language they wish, but if they
wish to post on the main list, what they say does need to be translated,.
Again, we define private and public a bit differently, perhaps, and IÂ’m not
sure how I can present this in a clear and understandable way to you. But
Â…if I am considering an online group or list, I look to see the language
used there. If I found a group or list that dealt with subjects of interest
to me that used, just say, Finnish as its language, I would have 3 choices.
1. I could try to learn Finnish. (good luck with that one, Maria!). 2. I
could use something like Google or Bing Translator to at least get a sense
of what people are talking about, or 3. I could decide not to join the
group or list. I have said before, and I will say again that I have
tremendous respect and admiration for those who have joined us whose first
language is not English, because I have a bit of an idea how difficult
dealing with it, and through it, us, must be. I think anyone willing to
even make the attempt to interact in a 2nd (or 3rd, 4th, or whatever)
language is rather wonderful, whatever level of competence they have (which
is usually more than they realize).
And about the conventus analogy. Am I supposed to understand it so that if I
came to a Nova Roman conventus with 4 of my Hungarian fellow citizens, we
would be considered rude if we talked in Hungarian with each other in front
of the Anglophone citizens?
CMC. You know, I have been in social situation with people who spoke many
languages, and sure, there would be groups of people speaking among
themselves in languages other than English which is fine. But if I wandered
over to say hi to those I knew, and hoped to be introduced to those I
didnÂ’t, they did me the courtesy of speaking to me, in my language, because
they knew I couldnÂ’t speak to them in theirs, which, I freely admit, is my
lack, not theirs. Are you casting me in the role of someone who is
intolerant, disrespectful and insensitive? I donÂ’t think you are, and I
certainly hope that my conduct over the past 7 years has indicated
otherwise, but if I have been so, ever, to any one, I apologize absolutely
and profoundly, because this was never my intent, and never will be.
Because I participated in a lot of NR conventús but it was always natural
and very accepted that people from the same country spoke normally in their
own language with each other, unless they wanted to say something that is of
general interest or importance. I absolutely don't think it is rude, but I
would think it very rude if the majority would expect us to use their
language if we want to open our mouth for anything.
And my last thought, but this one is the most important. Languages are like
flags, like anthems or like religions. They are not simply vehicles of
communication: they are forms of identity expression. There is a very old
Hungarian proverb: "Nations live in their language". Or "A nation is its
language". If people are not allowed to express their belonging, their
identity, their culture by being allowed to use their language without
restriction, it hurts. Rest assured, only a very few of them would write
anything in a language other than English. Heck, have you ever seen me
writing in Hungarian here? I don't want to write in Hungarian here. But the
fact that if I wanted I couldn't unless I translate it to English is a
humiliating feeling. I remember I was very proud of Nova Roma when I came
here and I see that all languages were allowed in the forum. I really felt
welcome here as a Hungarian. I think I have actually used one or two
Hungarian phrases
untranslated during my 10 years here, but it was all. Yet it made me feel
very proud, very free and very welcome. My English was rather poor when I
came here, and I was afraid to post. The fact that the rules were here so
inclusivist and friendly to all nations made, to be honest, moved me and I
could think of the Nova Romans as benevolent and good people, brothers and
sisters, who appreciated where I came from. Now it's gone. These days I
don't have problem with writing in English, so it's really hard to explain
why this rule makes me feel so uncomfortable, perhaps, it can only be
understood by people who speak a small language, but I that's the fact, and
I can't do anything with that:
CMC. This paragraph is the one I find most challenging, on several levels,
and you make a complex point, here. I think I can understand something of
how you feel, though I admit that my experience is very different. I read
this, and thought about any number of things. If I am not mistaken, during
the period of the Austro/Hungarian Empire, German was forced, either
directly or indirectly on the Hungarians, and if IÂ’m right, then your
feelings are even more understandable. I do remember seeing posts in
languages other than English on the ML, especially in Latin, and yes, I
often had to just delete them because I couldnÂ’t read them, though my
technological situation has improved to the point where I could and would
now, at least to some extent. But you know, seeing long Latin posts wasnÂ’t
the thing that made me want to attempt to learn Latin again (I chose it and
German as my foreign language courses in high school, and added French in
college), but some of the basic learning exercises we used to do, and for
me, the very fact that citizens opened and closed their posts in Latin set
my sense of “place”. I know that isn’t clear, but back to your first point.
I think I can understand how important language is in a sense of identity,
especially for those who have had a foreign language literally forced on
them, and I accept and respect this. The fact that English is one of the
most used languages in the world, for whatever reasons sometimes makes me
challenge certain cultural assumptions, lest I become arrogant. I have
lived most of my adult life in very large cities, and so I have always been
exposed to linguistic and other types of diversity, and, to be honest, I
prefer that. If IÂ’m walking down the street or riding on a bus, and hear
people speaking to one another in their own language, I am certainly not
offended, though I will admit that I may listen enough to try to determine
which language is being spoken, and if I have any competence in it at all,
try to pick out the occasional word, just for my own amusement. But that
isnÂ’t your point, I know. What I keep coming back to is this. We, as a
community are so widely scattered, have such diverse backgrounds and such a
large range of ages that I think that any and all commonalities should be
actively encouraged, even if one of those commonalities is a language. IÂ’d
love to be able to speak with you in Hungarian, Crassus in Portuguese,
Dexter in French, and Sabinus in Romanian, but, perhaps to my discredit, I
canÂ’t.
ever since the language edict I don't feel this forum mine anymore, and I
feel I'm just a tolerated foreigner here.
CMC. You? Just a tolerated Foreigner? You profoundly underestimate both
your worth to the Community and the value in which you are held, Amice!
Were this not so, I would not have spent several hours answering your post,
and even more hours thinking very seriously about what you have said!
And really the last point: about the special case of Latin. All what I said
about Hungarian is especially true about the Latin identity. If a Roman,
when writing to his forum, can only use his sacred language in the allegedly
most Roman society of the world if he accompanies every single utterance
with a proper English translation, then how, pray, would such a person of
Roman identity feel this place his home anymore? If Nova Roma does not
welcome Latin in its forum as a free language, where on earth can a today's
Roman find his home? Do we have to go away back to our hole? Or do we have
to form a "New-New Rome"? Please try to imagine what a person feels in this
situation, when he makes tremendous efforts to become a Roman, reads the
books, spends years to learn the Roman language, and discovers Nova Roma and
rejoys with a hurray "Oh yes, I have arrived home!". Then he must learn that
those who are supposed to be today's Romans, Nova Roma, are not very
happy if he writes a Latin message. Either he speaks on the New Forum in
English, or he better goes elsewhere. Full Roman identity is not welcome
here. I referred to languages as flags or cultural symbols like anthems.
Here is the point when I explain why.
CMC. Again, I do understand what you are saying, and I canÂ’t entirely
disagree, but let’s call it the “courtesy of the house” that people posting
in Latin provide those who donÂ’t read Latin at least a general idea of what
they are saying. I see our policy as more inclusive, because it provides
all citizens access to anything posted on a public forum.
If this Latinist newcomer has at least one single brain cell, he will not
inundate the mailing list with Latin messages because he sees that the
populace here is overwhelmingly made up of non-Latinists. He may write one
or two Latin messages addressing one or more other Latinists on the list,
but that's all. Or did I or Scholastica or Metellus or Valerianus or Cordus
or the many others overwhelmed this mailing list with our Latin? The really
important part of this was the feeling for this newcomer Latinist, that he
is now at home, at the very place which is called the forum Romanum, and he
can speak Latin in form of letters, and there's a chance somebody will even
answer. It means very much to a person
of Latin heart. That's like baptism for a Christian. If you said to a person
who is about to be baptized that he is very welcome but instead of the
building of the church he should be baptized in the warehouse, well, I don't
think he would feel very welcome or home. If a Latinist may use only
translated Latin, or only in another, inferior mailing list, it's not the
same at all. The Latin emails I have sent to this list were among my first
Latin
letters I wrote in my life. I remember I was euphoric and I couldn't
believe it's happening. Well, today it would not happen, or it would not
have the same feel, knowing I am allowed to write here only under certain
circumstances and required a full English translation. I can not feel free
here to express my Latin and Roman identity, except under caveats. This
mailing list is now not different from any non-Roman mailing lists. This
mailing list simply does not welcome my Romano-Latin identity. I would not
abuse it, I did not. Yet I better go elsewhere if I want to experience what
is to speak freely like a Roman spoke.
I did not want to argue, still I find myself arguing without end. All I
wanted to say it's this: maybe I can not convincingly explain why this
translation rule is discouraging and suffocating, and perhaps I can not
support it with valid arguments. But I, as one of the citizens, can tell how
it affects me. I can't explain it in simple words, maybe I can't explain it
at all, why, but the obligatory translation rule in the Nova Roman forum
Romanum makes me feel an unwelcome person here, a foreigner, a tolerated
intruder. Of course, I can live with that, it would not be the only one
thing where Nova Roma has mistakes, but since this topic was brought up, and
I had some free time to share my thoughts, I thought I use this opportunity
to share my feelings and opinion,
I am very glad that you did choose to present your views, Amice Carissime,
because you raise some core questions, and it is an interchange of such
ideas that will enable us to forge a greater sense of who we are, as a
community!
Vale et valete quam optime!
C. Maria Caeca, who has no doubt been relegated to the status of “ugly
American”.
Cura ut valeas, amica mea!
________________________________
Da: cmc <
c.mariacaeca@... <mailto:c.mariacaeca%40gmail.com
A:
Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com
Inviato: Mercoledì 26 Giugno 2013 20:35
Oggetto: RE: [Nova-Roma] Re: To Dexter and Scholastica
Salve Lentule Amice!
Let me use an analogy to explain why this edict is at the very least
advisable. If there is a fairly large group of people gathered together,
say at a social event, and one or 2 go off into a corner and whisper
together, very obviously ignoring everyone else, and in fact, making it
obvious that they don't want other guests to come close enough to hear them
or talk with them, these few people are being rude. This is that large
room, and everyone here is our guest, so anything that detracts from the
flow of conversation is, at the very least, rude. This is *especially* true
when a person uses another language to say derogatory things about someone
else who is present. Private comments can be made privately, in Mandarin,
Tamil, Lithuanian or ancient Egyptian; but if someone wants to interact with
all of us, we do require that they use, in public, the language that is the
most common among us, and that is English. There are lots of venues for
private chats in any language, including English, we even have one on the
Forum Nova Romanum. If I want to say something privately to anyone, in any
language, I do so, but when I post *here* I know that everyone on the list
will see it, and it is my hope that everyone on the list will *read* it, and
understand what I'm trying to say. The main list is not the place for
private communications of any kind.
Before I am accused of hating Latin, which I certainly do not, or of being
xenophobic, which, I think I have demonstrated I am not, let me make
something clear. One of the joys of Nova Roma is, and has always been for
me, its International character. I have friends here, some of them very
dear to me, from Europe, The United Kingdom and Australia, and I have no
problems with people using their own language in cases where that is
necessary, so long as they translate what they say publicly. If there are
difficulties doing that, the Praetura has made it very clear that we will
assist them in getting their thoughts translated.
In addition, anyone wanting to post a whole text in Latin, or any other
language can certainly do so, and in such a case, a link to a good English
translation would be perfectly sufficient. What we are trying to do is to
make communication easier between *all* citizens, and by requiring
communication in our chosen common language, we are also disallowing rude
behavior to hide in a metaphorical corner.
Vale Bene!
C. Maria Caeca, Scriba Praetoris
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